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Tuesday 20 July 2010

Sarah McDermott | 12:31 UK time, Tuesday, 20 July 2010

More details on what is coming up on tonight's programme:

All eyes will be on the body language in Washington tonight between two new leaders. Ten weeks after taking office, David Cameron is there for his first White House visit as UK prime minister.

Although the agenda was meant to centre on the BP Gulf of Mexico oil spill, the global economy and the UK government's proposed Afghan withdrawal date of 2015, the reignited row over the free-ing of the Lockerbie bomber is now dominating the visit. Having initially refused, David Cameron will be meeting four US senators to discuss allegations BP lobbied for the release of the Abdelbaset al-Megrahi.

Peter Marshall is in Washington for Newsnight tonight and we hope to be speaking to Mike Hammer from Obama's National Security Council.

We'll also be asking Simon Schama what he thinks will define Cameron and Obama's 'special relationship'.

Then Jackie Long will be asking why the UK government has decided to simplify the UK tax law.

And, in his first broadcast interview, we'll be asking the Cardiff councillor John Dixon about the tweet which has resulted in him facing a disciplinary hearing for calling the Church of Scientology "stupid".

Do join Kirsty at 10.30pm on BBC Two.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
From earlier today:
Ahead of his first White House visit as UK prime minister, David Cameron has told a US newspaper that he will be "hard headed and realistic" about UK-US relations.

"We are the junior partner," he writes.

The 'special relationship' aside, it is expected that the BP oil leak, Afghanistan and the global economy will all be on the agenda for today's talks with President Barack Obama. Mr Cameron has also agreed to meet four US senators about the Lockerbie bomber's release.

Peter Marshall is in Washington for Newsnight tonight.

More details later.

Comments

  • Comment number 1.

    SHOPPING LIST

    Saint Tony said unto us: "The rules of the game are changing". And insofar as that was the intention of 9/11 - they did.

    Will Poodle-Dave 'shop' the USA to itself, when meeting Obama He did say the poodle will bark as required. "Bark - bark". "What's that you say Crassy? The three towers were brought down with explosives? "Bark - bark." "There were THREE towers??"

    But Obama will not listen, of course. He has declared any challenge to the 9/11 myth - unfriendly.

  • Comment number 2.

    Gango . The only one 'whining on' (about race) is yourself.
    As for an icon. Jaded has some serious competition.

    A couple of real icons.
    the composer of this piece of music.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6txOvK-mAk

    Maybe I'm biased, that was one of the first tunes I mastered on the piano, even before learning chopsticks.


    And my early inspiration is this fella.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SwWikOn6Jw

    Okey gango. I may have passed you a ball like it was Xmas day in no-mans-land...but tomorrow, its business as usual.

  • Comment number 3.

    ELIZA IS SINGING LIKE A CANARY

    "All I want is a place somewhere
    Far away from that Tony Blair
    And Dubya - really! - what a pair!
    Oh woult'n it be luverly."



  • Comment number 4.

    But Blair Brown et al, shouted at us that going into Iraq and Afganistan would protect us from terrorists!!!!!

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/7900135/Iraq-war-increased-terrorist-threat-to-the-UK-former-MI5-chief-tells-Chilcot-Inquiry.html

    Now it couldn't be that they were wrong all along, and were they lying to us as Manningham-Buller is implying!!!! Oh no nulabour wouldn't be that nasty would they?!

  • Comment number 5.

    #2 Ah, Kev what great concert performances Jimi gave! I wonder what he'd be playing now.

  • Comment number 6.

    NOTHING CHANGES OVER MILLENNIA (#4)

    One poster, just a few days back, gave us Cicero:

    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within."

    What Eliza Manningham-Buller alluded to, at Chilcot, was JUST THAT - treason from within.
    I do not agree with Cicero. The truth is that, while the Westminster Ethos and party politics continue to bamboozle a gullible electorate, only ambitious fools and knaves will ever govern us, AND IT IS THOSE FOOLS AND KNAVES WHO PLOT THE TREASON. We must make a start:

    SPOILPARTYGAMES

  • Comment number 7.

    #55

    I don"t know what you're talking about, jaunty. Plenty of English people, including strangers, I.e. those I've never seen before, look at me directly and smile. Perhaps the English are a bit more hesitant or cautious in being totally open and spontaneous in engaging with others but nevertheless they don't seem to be completely deprived of warmth and directness.

  • Comment number 8.

    #2 kevseywevsey

    "Okey gango. I may have passed you a ball like it was Xmas day in no-mans-land...but tomorrow, its business as usual."

    You mean that for me the War is not over?

    To be frank you are really quite silly and that's something I noticed when you were the even sillier cookieducker and you declared war on me.

    Still when you are confronted by somebody who is as strong as Tyson and believes that the races are not equal then its very demanding.

    On the music front lets bear in mind you endorse the views of the odious jaded_jean who was a National Socialist who believed in the policies of Hitler. The Nazis used to like having the Jews in the camps play classical music to them because they were so "cultured".

    So your musical tastes don't interest me at all.

    But returning to the whining of the far right as I pointed, and you did not answer, if people believe the racial equality laws are based on nonsense why do they procrastinate on the web rather than take their evidence to court?

    If a law exists based on scientific principles that you can prove are wrong then why talk to the monkey when you can, in your addled view, go to the organ grinder and get the law changed?

  • Comment number 9.

    #6 barriseingleton

    "The truth is that, while the Westminster Ethos and party politics continue to bamboozle a gullible electorate, only ambitious fools and knaves will ever govern us, AND IT IS THOSE FOOLS AND KNAVES WHO PLOT THE TREASON."

    I don't know some people and their capital letters.

    You were lamenting the absence of jaded_jean the other day, your National Socialist pal, who would have had us do away with democracy and replace it with National Socialist tyranny incorporating the kind of policies Hitler instituted.

    Treachery could be in the eye of the beholder in the case of you people and others view you with equal suspicion.

  • Comment number 10.

    Please can we get away from eternal references to a special relationship. We are very close to the US in many ways but if we allow the lines between countries with their distinct processes to be blurred then we end up with the Blair-Bush shenanigans that gave us renditions, Iraq and torture inquiries.

    Mutual respect and friendship are all we need to get along very nicely indeed.

  • Comment number 11.

    #4 ecolizzy

    "Now it couldn't be that they were wrong all along, and were they lying to us as Manningham-Buller is implying!!!! Oh no nulabour wouldn't be that nasty would they?!"

    Said the poster inspired by National Socialist Holocaust denier jaded_jean who waffled on about their being evidence for racial differences in IQ that science does not know about - or the BNP would have been off to court with the EHRC in a jiffy.

    Lies?

    Nasty?

    Pots and kettles?

  • Comment number 12.

    I'M GOING TO HAVE THE FONE TAKEN OUT.

    And shot.

  • Comment number 13.

    #1 barriesingelton

    ----------------------
    "What's that you say Crassy? The three towers were brought down with explosives? "Bark - bark."

    ----------------------

    For once I can agree with you as I have thought you may be barking for some time.

    What is it about people who, to dance the dance, agree with avowed National Socialist posters on race, that they will promote any conspiracy theory.

    The third tower was taken down with explosives that were either carried in over a period of months (because that's how long it takes) past INTELLIGENCE OFFICERS or they used, allegedly, experimental explosives.

    But the trouble is the cited experimental explosives leave a residue and the rubble was tested and did not have the residue and there were doubts about whether it would have worked anyway.

    Still if people can believe propositions that the Holocaust was made up and that there are significant differences between the races and that Hitler was a peace lover they will probably believe anything.

  • Comment number 14.

    One last flippant query for kevseywevsey.

    Its not about the rubber bullets in your traumatic Belfast background nor about Wilhelm Reich.

    You get very touchy about your political views but lets say you like "the Griff", you are an English Nationalist, you believe erroneously that the races are unequal (really he does) and you admired the National Socialist Jaded_jean.

    Now I know you don't like being pigeon holed as the BNP - who "are not a Nazi Party" - but given Griffin announced he is stepping down as leader in a few years they will need to identify a new leader.

    Now should they go for an intellectual?

    Probably not as their is no coherent basis for their views or they would have taken the EHRC apart on racial equality laws and they haven't.

    Its propaganda layered on propaganda layered on propaganda with no kernel.

    There is also the issue that before the EHRC took out an injunction to prevent the BNP taking on new members due to their failure to comply with racial equality laws they probably had National Socialist members and members who thought they were "modern and progressive".

    So might they look for other qualities that would help them circumvent the absence of intellectual integrity?

    So you mentioned that you were stronger than Tyson .....

  • Comment number 15.

    #12 ooohhh Barrie, I don't think the UAF shot their members do they?! ; )

  • Comment number 16.

    Is there to be a follow up to the Lockerbie circuit board piece some time back that could be so relevant to Megrahi and the unsatisfactory early release on compassionate grounds?

    Also what about the coat hanger bomb detector as surely there will be a follow up on that?

  • Comment number 17.

  • Comment number 18.

    THOUGHT SO (#17)

    No mention of a speech coach.

  • Comment number 19.

    #10

    Gango

    'Mutual respect and friendship, that's all we need.' Seemingly simple and obvious requirements between nations and individials, aren't they, thogh more often than not they get violated, don't they?

    mim

  • Comment number 20.

    Is there any link between the destination of the Lockerbie flight and the ethnicity of many of its passengers, the hubris that followed the release of Al-Magrahi and those US senators in the US who are now following up the Al-Magrahi release issue with Cameron today?

    The four U.S. senators are Kirsten Gillibrand and Charles Schumer of New York and Frank Lautenberg and Robert Menendez of New Jersey.

    Would there be the same level of US hubris had the plane been destined to Chicago?

    On Sunday, the chairman of Westminster's all-party group on Libya, Conservative MP Daniel Kawczynski, called for a full public inquiry into the decision to release Al-Megrahi.

  • Comment number 21.

    It's worth reproducing this post from Adrienne back in 2007....

    ------------------------------------------------
    • 17. At 01:15 PM on 31 Dec 2007, Adrienne wrote:

    Look up the links to the NYC demographics provided in a NN comment on the New Labour donations thread:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/2007/11/three_unanswered_questions_for_jon_mendelsohn.html

    and note the way that this 'minorities' issue is either a big muddle or a very cleverly played hegemonic game.
    If the figures are looked at from one perspective, one sees a group which, according to Sir Martin Gilbert, accounted for nearly 5 million of NYC's population at the end of the first decade of the C20th, and which, according to several sources now, comprises just under 2 million of NYC's population (the reduction presumably being through migration to Israel since 1948).
    But NOTE - there are also over 2 million Blacks in NYC, and another 2.5 million or so Hispanics (the first averaging something like -1.5 SD (1SD=15 IQ points) in mean IQ bellow the Jews and the second about -1SD) then there are nearly 1 million Asians. A 1SD and 1.5SD difffernece has major implications in terms of relative numbers at the upper end of the ability distribution, i.e. social and economic power. Vociferous claims of equality simoly serve to hide this fact to some group's advantage perhaps?
    The question then is: What does that leave as a NYC minority group aside from Asians? Surely it's the WASPs and Catholics if the NYC population is a little over 8 million?
    This 'grouping game' has been playable because of the fuzziness of Jewish group membership. One source puts the Ashkenazi population at about 970,000 five years or so ago, but that may just be counting the distinctively dressed Orthodox/Ashkenazim. But it also has to be remembered that NYC's original Jews were Sephardic, fleeing from S America and Portugal and even Holland. Then there are secular Jews.
    This paranoid (persecuted group) 'game' has, I suggest, been played in such a way that either by accident or design, it has conferred advantages upon this group as a non-persecuted minority when overall (if all Jews are counted including those now considering themsleves secular though still Jewish according to the Israeli Law of Return), is not a minority at all, but quite the opposite, although it has benefited by making out that it is (creating friendship groups, 'charities', NGOs etc), drawing attention to the Blacks and the Hispanic groups as 'minorities'. In fact, none of these groups are minorities in NYC. Making out that they are really just drives out the WASPs/Catholics, as it does in London. Look closely at the domination across all sectors in NYC, finance, theatre, fashion, music, law...
    Superimpose the mean differences in verbal IQ between these groups (Jewish, Asian, White-Non_jewish-Non_Hispanic, Hispanic, Black and one immediately sees that this has either been a 'clever' hegemonic strategy (or a blind-spot) which has wrong-footed the real minority group of NYC, the WASPs and non_Hispanic Catholics:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_New_York_City
    http://jbuff.com/c010104.htm

    Is the same 'minority' strategy now being played out in London (albeit with very different numbers and groups) where the White_Non_Jewish population is moving out as Black and Asian groups move in, with support from Jewish groups alleging that they too are a minority? If so, it's a clever group strategy to increase hegemony.

  • Comment number 22.

    Perhaps Cameron needs to ask all the idiot Yanks moaning about Megrahi ( and a possible BP link ) if they would have had preferred it if he had not been released and that his subsequent pending appeal proved that he was set up by the CIA and was in fact completely innocent ?

  • Comment number 23.

    'THE US/UK SPECIAL RELATIONSIP: 'REACTIVATE LEND/LEASE??

    Both the United States' Senate and House of Representatives Defence and budget-related Committees are deliberating proposals to substantially downsize their country's navy and how budget reductions can be implemented in all of their country's armed forces branches...

    This while the UK is struggling to find ways of financing major- but very needed- military acquisition programmes, particularly for the Royal Navy and ancillary services...

    Could a productive strategy to perhaps partially meet both countries' objectives be the US 'gifting to the UK' several of its most recently built fighter aircraft & helicopter carrying naval vessels (along with their aircraft + weapons) that could be inducted into the RN in place of the UK's planned- but, due to budget constraints- enormously counterproductively lacking in capabilities- new 'big deck' aircraft carriers??

    The UK could sell its 2 partially completed, impractically-designed 'big deck' aircraft carriers to reliable countries
    such as India, S. Korea or even Brazil; work with the buyer(s) to 'custom fit' these vessels with radars, communications, armaments, etc; and could commit future years' funding to a 're-design' of the botched-by-the-previous-Labour-govt' big deck' aircraft carrier programme...

    COULD THE US LEND/LEASE TO THE UK

    1) http://www.navy.mil/local/lhd8/ -

    2) http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=4200&ct=4&tid=400 -

    3) http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/navy/lhd-8.htm

    4) http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/cvn-21/

    5) http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/cvn-21/cvn-213.html

    6) http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/cvn-21/cvn-214.html

    7) http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/cvn-78-specs.htm
    ===================

    THE UK'S DESIRED WORLD-PROFILE ALONG WITH ITs FORESEEN FUTURE ROLES & POTENTIAL DUTIES OUGHT TO BE PARAMOUNT IN THE UK's DEFENCE MEGA-PROJECT DECISION-MAKING

    The United Kingdom's desired world-profile, roles & foreseen duties along with its required future Defence Industry and Defence-related technological capabilities (during the coming 3-4 decades) ought to underpin any and ALL discussions AND policy decisions regarding the Vanguard successor class submarine & Trident replacement programmes....

    The same can be said for discussions and policy decisions regarding the future force structure & capabilities of the Royal Navy generally... IE: whether or not to commit funding for:

    1a) the 'FULL' fitting out- with weapons, communications and defensive systems- of the 6 currently undergoing construction/sea trials Type-45 Destroyers- instead of continuing with the hugely dangerous, absurd previous Labour govt plans of commissioning these urgently required vessels into service as barely 20% equipped 'shells', IE: without 80% of the basic, industry-standard types of weapons, communications and defensive systems that their designers originally intended;

    1b) the urgently needed 12-additional Type-45 Destroyers (12 on top of the 6 presently undergoing construction/sea trials);

    2) properly designed* 'big deck' Aircraft Carriers;

    * IE not continuing with the current- previous Labour govt initiated- 'make work project for votes' programme...

    This due to the planned 'big deck' aircraft carriers being designed- and now undergoing construction- without vital, industry-standard communications, weapons & defensive systems- and, highly dangerously: without weapons guidance radars; aircraft-launch catapults and damage control systems equipment; and to make matters far worse- not nuclear powered...

    Conventional, fossil-fuel powered propulsion enormously limits- if not outright prohibits military vessels such as the UK's planned 'big deck' aircraft carriers' future upgradeability and their capacity to operate next-generation anti airborne threat weapons such as 'Directed Energy Weapons' (DEWs)

    (DEWs are in late stages of development by several non-UK countries);


    3) 10 Astute class submarines rather than the ludicrously inadequate 5 that the previous Labour govt committed funding for...

    Despite times being tough- and balancing the country's annual budget deserving high importance- it could only benefit the United Kingdom's future political, economic, domestic and international strategic interests if, as a result of the current Defence Review, that an unequivocally articulated 'statement' was made by the country regarding what its intended future world roles & duties are and what UK military/disaster intervention capabilities can be counted on- by the broader world community- during the coming 3-4 decades...



    ______________
    Roderick V. Louis,
    Vancouver, BC, Canada

  • Comment number 24.

    WHERE HAVE ALL THE GOOD MEN GONE (#22)

    It all adds up. Knowing Megrahi was NOT going to die in short order, and would live to see his appeal mounted, at which the telling evidence was due to come out, it was necessary to 'shorten his life expectancy' and compassionately ship him out. The BP factor is secondary.

    But it was all done in the best possible taste.

  • Comment number 25.

    #53. 20 July gangofoney, quoting my #46:-
    The ‘radical’ parties that stood for the preservation of English culture (as opposed to the ‘big 3’ that welcomed ‘diversity’ and jointly oversaw this non-integrated multicultural mess) were denied all 33 MPs that their 1.55 million votes would have been elected under PR.

    “So are you talking about the BNP here?”

    The figures on votes cast on 6th May are available on numerous websites, from which simple arithmetic will show that the following MPs would have been elected if PR had been in effect: UKIP 20 MPs; BNP 12 MPs; English Democrats 1 MP. A reasonable assumption would be that many of the 45% of the eligible population did not vote at all knowing that under FPTP votes for other than ‘the Big 3’ would be wasted votes. How they will vote under AV (IF approved!) is anyone’s guess, though I am surprised that you seem to support PR, perhaps looking only at the likely boost in LibDem MPs?

    “Like I say if there is a big mass of evidence for differences between the races at a significant level beyond the cosmteic then gather up the evidence and take it off to court.”

    Yes, you have cut and pasted that phrase countless times, but you know it is ‘phoney’. PROOF of racial differences would be on a par to proof of whether JC or one the many other mass-worshipped deities was the ‘true saviour'. We have our own beliefs and consciences to guide us, together with our own personal experiences. My belief, based on wide experience of training nationals in several countries, is that there are significant differences. But you know full well that my posts are NOT based on RACIAL but CULTURAL differences, so your usual chanted mantras about BNP, Hitler etc., etc., are, as usual, totally irrelevant.

    You are fond of citing ‘democracy v national socialism’ in an effort to support your myopic views. It is democracy that gave those 1.5 million voters the right to vote for their choice of MPs and policies. I voted for manifesto policies that would halt mass immigration and preserve what is left of the English culture in which I was raised. FPTP ensured that 2 of the Big 3 got into power again. My only consolation is that there seems to be at least one MP who is launching private members’ bills (against in-your-face religious masquerading, and to deport foreign prisoners) to stop some of the cancer that is destroying our society. Maybe too little and too late, but roll on the ‘promised’ referendum on electoral reform, and other changes to reduce the abuse of our oft-cited ‘British Tolerance’ = Apathy Lethargy and Complacency.

    Im taking the phoney off the hookey now.

  • Comment number 26.

    the british love role gamers. They might all be 'stupid' but it would be hurtful to say so? But then that makes truth the victim. Truth has to be sacrificed so that those who believe equality is the highest idea of the mind can feel happy.

    So equality not only creates a society with not much good it has very little truth. Those that promote the good and truth must be sacrificed. Human sacrifice is an old Celtic custom. Everynight NN verbally puts someone in the Wicker Man and we all tune in and watch.

  • Comment number 27.

    #24

    Absolutely Barrie!

    But y'know they have got nothin to worry about because they own the media and even if they diden't most people dont care providing they have a flat screen TV, broadband and some salty snacks high in saturated fat.

    Maybe we should provide the Taliban with that, must be much cheaper than fighting them.

    As for the 'special relationship' I cringe every time I hear that sickening phrase now.

    We have a special relationship with France too ...we love to hate them, which from my perspective seems to engender a much more fruitful state of affairs than the hating to love them 'special relationship' we have with the guys accross the pond.

    But hey what do I know?

    I feel a 3/4 bottle of red night coming on.

  • Comment number 28.

    @4

    This is the kill shot-

    "Our involvement in Iraq radicalised, for want of a better word, a whole generation of young people - not a whole generation, a few among a generation - who saw our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan as being an attack on Islam"

    This confirms MPs and civil servants have committed numerous criminal offenses in English Law, ranging from Incitement to murder with regard to the 7/7 bombers to Treason under the Treason Felony Act 1848-

    "to move or stir any foreigner or stranger with force to invade the United Kingdom or any other of her Majesty's dominions or countries under the obeisance of her Majesty, and such compassings, imaginations, inventions, devices, or intentions, or any of them, shall express, utter, or declare, by publishing any printing or writing ... or by any overt act or deed, every person so offending shall be guilty of felony, and being convicted thereof shall be liable"

    Of course the Police are only interested in protecting these people not with investigating and prosecuting, thus not only commiting acts of Conspiracy and Aiding and Abetting but also Compounding Treason and Misprision of treason.

    Treason doth never prosper, what's the reason?
    Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason

  • Comment number 29.

    Someone mentioned some time ago the over-use of the word "fairness" aka "not fair/unfair/fair", mainly by politicians, almost as often as sulking children.

    Nothing is fair, life's fundamentally unfair, given that we as human beings have the knowledge that we will all certainly die sometime and there's nothing we can do about it.

    So please, pull the politicos up sharpish like when they lazily employ this word.

    Equality's another one; "equality of opportunity"; and I'm convinced I once heard Blears bleat on about "equality of aspiration"(!?)

    What does equality mean? Equality of opportunity? We all have an equally miniscule chance? Chance of what? Being born into money/influence, Dad knowing the right people, getting to Oxford on a hardship grant as a result, getting a job as a special advisor because of Dad's connections, getting a safe seat after the apprenticeship, becoming a Minister of HMG, maybe PM or at least Leader of a Party?

    And all the while articulating a personal vision of "equality and fairness."

    Are you talkin' to me?

  • Comment number 30.

    WHOOPEE! IT'S OPEN SEASON ON THE SCOTS

    I would like to be the first to add my righteous, ill-informed, anger against the Scots, to that of Barack 'Boom-boom' Obama and Dave 'Variable-Head' Cameron.

    This is too good an opportunity to miss. They have no army, rely on subsidy from us, and their oil has run out. AND THEIR WINDMILLS WON'T GO ROUND! What a bunch of losers.

    Oh - it's all going awfully well.

  • Comment number 31.

    #24; please don't generalize, or perhaps you were employing the regal "we"; I don't hate the French at all, at least they had the courage in the eighteenth century to get rid of the aristos; worst thing that happened in Europe pre WW1? The defeat of Napoleon, not by the British but by the Prussians, at Waterloo; interesting to examine the proportions of mercenaries/Germans/Belgians/Dutch/Portuguese in Welligton's army and by discounting the Scots/Welsh/Irish contingents - there were hardly any English there at all - probably all in the pub, vomiting in the sawdust and plaintively carousing "ENG-ER-LAND, ENG-ER-LAND, ENG-ER-LAND". And of course, the Iron Duke himself was a scion of Ould Oireland.

    As for the Yanks? Well, they speak approximately the same lingo as us and that's about as far as any "special" relationship goes.

    Imagine if France had won the Seven Years War. "Monsieur le President Obama acceuille aujourd'hui le Premier Ministre Cameron de notre plus chere colonie, la Bretagne Anglaise."

    If only.

  • Comment number 32.

    DO WATCH ELIZA AT THE 'IRAQ ENQUIRY'

    Not for what she SAYS though that is damning enough but for the considered manner of her delivery, the small asides, the wry smiles and the devastating single word answers.

    Oh that Tony might have been made to 'appear before her'.

  • Comment number 33.

    HAW HEE HAW - NOT TWENTEE-FEURRRR. (#31)

    Oui? (:o)

  • Comment number 34.

    Apologies! Reply re hating French was to #27 Jericoa and not to Wor Barrie!

    Still sounds like cheese to me.

  • Comment number 35.

    Bladderonastick Minister Salmond is conspicuously absent in all this Libyan stuff; not like him to miss an opportunity; maybe too busy schmoozing with Trump in his Tower.

  • Comment number 36.

    #31

    I dont hate the French either, I love to hate them, there is a big difference.




  • Comment number 37.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 38.

    A NICE POINT - IN LA MANCHE (#36)

    One to savour Jericoa.

  • Comment number 39.

    Muslim womens way of getting around French law banning the face veil, an amusing twist, and pretty crafty.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4bnmlQQ7YY&feature=player_embedded

  • Comment number 40.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 41.

  • Comment number 42.

    #25 indignantindegene

    "he figures on votes cast on 6th May are available on numerous websites, from which simple arithmetic will show that the following MPs would have been elected if PR had been in effect: UKIP 20 MPs; BNP 12 MPs; English Democrats 1 MP."

    Well first off it all depends on the PR system instituted and myself I would be quite happy to have AV Plus that both allowed more proportionality, constituencies and also allowed those democrats to exclude non democratic parties.

    For instance UKIP would and, I assume, the English Democrats would probably have nothing whatever to do with the BNP hence the total rejection of the BNP by UKIP. Will that change under Pearson, I doubt it though they have had a few chancers like Wiffin in London.

    "PROOF of racial differences would be on a par to proof of whether JC or one the many other mass-worshipped deities was the ‘true saviour'. We have our own beliefs and consciences to guide us, together with our own personal experiences."

    That is one of the most pathetic arguments I have ever heard as beliefs may guide our personal behaviour but not our social ones. You can't have a society where everybody operates independently.

    That is why there are LAWS on racial equality that could only be changed by public opinion - and that will never happen in a democracy with mutli-cultural demographics - or by PROOF of science, and there is less chance of the latter happening than the former as it is quite clear there has not been the evolutionary time for there to be genetic variation in humanity's short history.

    "But you know full well that my posts are NOT based on RACIAL but CULTURAL differences, so your usual chanted mantras about BNP, Hitler etc., etc., are, as usual, totally irrelevant."

    Yet you know yourself that we live in a MULTI-cultural society where the various component cultures do not in fact detriment each other but compliment them.

    As for your, and others, frequent protest that I rant on about Hitler could that be possibly because of those that have made clear that they explicitly favour National Socialism and the regular posters who agree with that proposition. Jaded_jean agreed with indirectly, of course, by barriesingelton, kevseywevsey, ecolizzy and so on.

    You yourself feel no need to distinguish the BNP from other parties who are reputed to be democratic and that is left to other readers to consider.



  • Comment number 43.

    #42 contd indignatindegene

    Just noticed another infantile response by debt juggler indignant indegene(ous) person. By the way you don't need to be Holmes to conclude neither the UKIP or English Democrat parties use that dread BNP phrase indigenous - because for them it really is not about race.

    So whilst you say that you are not racially motivated indigenous would seem to be racial.

    Just like ecolizzy who claims to have ethnic relatives - but does not like to visit London these days due to the racial mix. Curiously about 99% of that posters views relate to race and ethnic groups.

    Anyways on debtjuggler:

    "Is the same 'minority' strategy now being played out in London (albeit with very different numbers and groups) where the White_Non_Jewish population is moving out as Black and Asian groups move in, with support from Jewish groups alleging that they too are a minority? If so, it's a clever group strategy to increase hegemony."

    So as with your "cultural" argument we see people relying not on fact but on projected beliefs as there is no evidence whatever for anything in those sentences.

    But perhaps we do agree in the sense that I have always said the far right is not an intellectual ideological grouping as those such as jaded_jean used to pretend but is in fact a cult.

    We also see with debtjuggler the notions that the core far right activists try to project on this page - and generally they do in fact shoot themselves in the feet with gusto - but its the nasty intent that most democrats with a different "belief" system will find so distasteful.

  • Comment number 44.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 45.

    DAVE DEFINED - WE HAVE GOT OURSELVES ANOTHER ONE!

    Westminster-style democracy has gifted us another megalomaniac Prime Minister. Will he now raise 'New Olympus' in England's green and pleasant land?

    With all the arrogant, and adamantine certainty of a Tony Blair clone, Dave proclaimed, of Megrahi's release: "I DON'T NEED AN ENQUIRY TO TELL ME WHAT WAS A BAD DECISION". The key words were 'I' and 'ME'.

    What Dave DOES need, is a lowly companion to repeat in his self-important ear: "REMEMBER YOU ARE NOT A GOD". Now we shall have to watch as Dave makes double-sure the truth never interferes with his righteousness. Fortunately for him, with Scottish Justice, and half a dozen of its top pontificators, in the frame, he can be sure of Salmond's quiescence.

    Oh - it's all going awfully well.

  • Comment number 46.

    THE FLIGHT FROM JUSTICE (#41 link)

    Thanks Bro. One report is missing from the list that you link - the Private Eye Special on Lockerbie.

    This is the kind of corruption Britain excels in. We are rubbish at the brown envelope stuff.

  • Comment number 47.

    Please vote for Jeremy today to be the 101st entry in the Media Guardian 100!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/poll/2010/jul/21/mediaguardian-100-2010

    (It costs NOTHING!)

  • Comment number 48.

    #42. gangofoney wrote:
    “Well first off it all depends on the PR system instituted and myself I would be quite happy to have AV Plus that both allowed more proportionality, constituencies and also allowed those democrats to exclude non democratic parties.” ? In a democracy who defines non-democratic?
    PR is simply where number of MPs elected is proportional to the number of votes cast. I have no comment on your possible relationships between ED and BNP party, any more than the alliance between Cons and LibDems was known (or approved) by most voters, therefore your comments are pure speculation. AV+ is also unknown territory as nobody can predict how many voters would tick a second favourite from the Big 3, and how many might tick a ‘radical’ party candidate out of frustration with the big 3 clones.

    My statement ‘PROOF of racial differences would be on a par to proof of whether JC or one the many other mass-worshipped deities was the ‘true saviour'. We have our own beliefs and consciences to guide us, together with our own personal experiences.’ Got the following face-slap:

    “That is one of the most pathetic arguments I have ever heard as beliefs may guide our personal behaviour but not our social ones. You can't have a society where everybody operates independently.” Come again?
    Perhaps you could clarify by indicating which of the following examples are personal and which social behaviour: Wearing a burka in public; gross display of one’s sexual inclination (e.g. in a gay pride parade) honour killing; FGM; suicide martyrdom?

    “That is why there are LAWS on racial equality that could only be changed by public opinion - and that will never happen in a democracy with mutli-cultural demographics .....etc., etc.(repetition of the race issue again).”

    I can only give you 5 out of 10 on that one phoney. Public opinion has little to do with many laws – vox populi went out with the Romans. Where was democracy when millions marched against War on Iraq; where are the promised referenda; did the public ask to have millions of surveillance and speed cameras; or to be controlled by EU; to have mass immigration, or multi-cult? The ballot box (every 5 years) with FPTP is tokenism, But you are right in that the un-ambitious and un-worthy in society will always vote for Equality out of envy, and the ‘grateful immigrants’ will tip the balance in their favour, particularly due to our warped sense of tolerance and fairness.

    “Yet you know yourself that we live in a MULTI-cultural society where the various component cultures do not in fact detriment each other but compliment them.” Such as with Sharia law? You can’t be serious!!

    “So whilst you say that you are not racially motivated indigenous would seem to be racial.”

    My dictionary defines indigenous as “native, belonging naturally to” and uses the example “Kangaroos are indigenous to Australia”
    I can only add that I don’t want kangaroos in their millions hopping about up and down my parish – nothing to do with race, it’s just their non-indigenous culture.

  • Comment number 49.

    Well gango I'll post this again, with the mods permission, perhaps one day you'll understand, go and do some studying and stop insulting people. I suppose you're called gangofone, because no one agrees with your ideas.

    11. At 5:13pm on 15 Jul 2010, ecolizzy wrote:
    Hey Gango you missed my reply to you, I think I have the right, as you picked up on some of my points.

    40. At 08:06am on 15 Jul 2010, ecolizzy wrote:
    So Gango you know more about genetics than the Anthony Nolan Trust...

    http://www.anthonynolan.org/News/Latest-stories/Super-Donation-Day.aspx

    I believe they are saying in this appeal, there are huge differences between races, and are appealing for more donors from the ethnic minorities in Britain. Many people die unfortunately because of the lack of ethnic donors. So how is it they know we are all ethinically diverse, and our genes and DNA don't match, but you are so much wiser and say that we are all the same!

    I remember poor little Anthony, I don't suppose you have a clue who he is, and I also remember his brave mother fighting to save his life, so I do believe what this trust has to say.

    Oh and no I haven't been to London recently, I might go to the opera shortly though. Oh you'll be pleased to know next year 2011, there will be a 50/50 mix of foreign and indigenous people in London.

  • Comment number 50.

    #43 thegangofone wrote:

    'and generally they do in fact shoot themselves in the feet with gusto'

    ----------------------

    Well...I suppose it will put a stop to our goose-stepping activity, which isn't easy on the legs!

  • Comment number 51.

    Have many UK citizens/residents/British subjects thought out how catastrophic- and irreversible- the consequences would be for the UK to not maintain its leadership and 'top table' roles/positions on almost ALL of the world's political, economic, financial, security, military, legal, human rights and other multi-national bodies??

    By not retaining- and where possible- expanding- its decades-long pervasive, constructive and widely respected world-wide presence through its 'global capability military and its ubiquitously accessible Internet, Radio and TV-delivered news, information and entertainment media- the UK will be rendering itself an unnoticeable, 'third rank' country, equivalent to a Hungary, Lithuania or Romania... but with much higher wages and costs-of-doing business...

    A UK with a drastically diminished military- and no govt-articulated long-term road map setting out specifically delineated and time-lined capabilities improvements objectives for the parts of its armed forces that most 'project UK presence' world-wide, IE the Royal Navy and Marines- would be inviting its removal from the world's most important and influential political, economic, financial, security, military, legal, human rights and other multi-national bodies...





    _____________
    Roderick V. Louis,
    Vancouver, BC, Canada

  • Comment number 52.

    #47

    Room 101 would be more appropriate for Mr Paxman.

  • Comment number 53.

    #36; you actually wrote in #27 "We have a special relationship with the French too....we love to hate them", and it was this somewhat crass generalization, unless of course you are Her Majesty, which prompted me to refute this from my own personal view.

    Why would anyone hate the French?

  • Comment number 54.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 55.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 56.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 57.

    #48 indignantindegene

    "I can only add that I don’t want kangaroos in their millions hopping about up and down my parish – nothing to do with race, it’s just their non-indigenous culture."

    You believe a kangaroo has culture?

    The point that you are unable to grasp is that if there is no science behind notions of racial difference.

    Hence as there is no science and there is law you may not like people of a foreign culture who are immigrants in our country but you have to obey the law as it is just and you have no basis on which to challenge it.

    As for culture and race the problem you have is almost everybody knows somebody of race who is British in culture.

    I don't vote Labour but look at Milibands Major and Minor and Abbott and Clegg of the Lib Dems.

    They are British and therefore your whittering on about conscience over perceived cultural pollution is clearly a flawed and redundant argument.

    As I say the far right is essentially an anti-intellectual power grab by replacement monarchists who rely on cult perceptions of their followers to facilitate the said power grab.

    By the way you know full well that the BNP are despised by the huge majority of people and they currently are facing up to their legal requirement to obey the racial equality laws - so AV Plus would not help you and there is little chance of there being another Euro election success so Griffin should enjoy his expenses.

    For them it is not culture is it is race hence the racial membership rules that got them into trouble with the EHRC.

    You are so very muddled.

  • Comment number 58.

    @ Debtjuggler #52 - you think you could be a better journalist than Jeremy? Dream on :p

  • Comment number 59.

    US/UK SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP: CONTINUED- & DEEPENNED- COOPERATION ON DEFENCE MEGA-PROJECTS COULD HAVE SUBSTANTIAL ECONOMIC & STRATEGIC BENEFITS FOR BOTH COUNTRIES:

    For nearly 1/2 a decade, the United Kingdom has been working colaboratively with the United States to jointly develop components for both countries' new classes of ballistic missile submarines- intended to replace the UK's Vanguard class and the US's Ohio class Trident submarines...

    Rather than continuing only developing interchangeable submarine/missile launcher components- with each country using these components in substantially architecturally different subs- the UK and the US ought to explore potential advantages of developing 'one' nuclear ballistic missile submarine design perhaps to be jointly built in both countries...

    LINKS/BACKGROUND:

    1) "(Common Missile Compartment) CMC Program to Define Future (nuclear ballistic missile submarine) SSBN Launchers for UK, USA", 29_06-2010:

    http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/CMC-contract-to-Define-Future-SSBN-Launchers-for-UK-USA-05221/ -

    "Jan 28/10: Backward compatibility. Lockheed Martin Space Systems Co. in Sunnyvale, CA received a $29.7 million sole source cost-plus-fixed-fee contract for systems engineering services, to help integrate current Trident D5 nuclear missiles into the (UK & US's planned new classes of nuclear ballistic missile) submarine's common missile compartment... Work is expected to be complete by... Sept 30/11..."

    2) "SSGN "Tactical Trident" Subs: Special Forces and Super Strike", 13_06-2010:

    http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ssgn-tactical-trident-subs-special-forces-and-super-strike-01764/ -

    "In the aftermath of the START-II arms control treaty, some of the USA's nuclear-powered Ohio Class SSBN nuclear missile submarines were converted to become long range conventional strike and special operations SSGN "Tactical Tridents".

    "Four ultra-stealthy Ohio-class SSBNs had their 24 Trident II D-5 nuclear ballistic missiles removed.

    "They were replaced with up to 154 Tomahawk cruise missiles, 66-102 special forces troops, special attachments for new Advanced SEAL Delivery System (ASDS) or older Seal Delivery Vehicle (SDV) "mini-subs," and a mission control center.

    "In future, the SSGNs will also carry UUV underwater robotic vehicles and even UAVs for aerial operations.

    "These modifications provide the USA with an impressive and impressively flexible set of conventional firepower, in a survivable and virtually undetectable platform that can remain on station for very long periods*.

    "As surveillance-strike complexes make the near-shore more and more hazardous for conventional ships, and the potential dangers posed by small groups continue to rise, America’s converted SSGN submarines will become more and more valuable.."


    (*with the planned, new Vanguard class successor/Trident replacement submarines- why not the UK??)

    3) "Northrop Grumman secures SSBN launcher contract", 18_06-2010:

    http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Navy-International-2010/Northrop-Grumman-secures-SSBN-launcher-contract.html

    4) Go to: http://www.parliament.uk and type "Future of the British Nuclear Deterrent: A Progress Report" into the search box...



    ________________
    Roderick V. Louis,
    Vancouver, BC, Canada

  • Comment number 60.

    Can anyone explain to me why all he big banking families are Jewish. Does it have something to do with that once quant christian belief that usury would guarantee them eternity in hell, so the Christians gave the money lending roll to the Jews? ..would that be it I wonder. Maybe that would explain why the jews run the world. My agents Jewish, maybe I should ask him eh.

  • Comment number 61.

    #49; you clearly annoyed thega n'gafone so I read what you wrote out of boredom and can only agree with thega; these crass generalities and lazy use of language is what typifies a group of posters on here.

    For example;"In 2011 ... there will be a 50/50 mix of foreign and indigenous people in London"; so what? All that means is that the mix of people born in London and those born outside of London will be equal; do all those Essex boys and girls make you nervous?

    And yes, Thega N'gafone is a Xhosa name.

  • Comment number 62.

    #61 Oh KB you can't tell the difference between people of the indigenous race here, and foreign born people then?

    So you are denying that english, irish, scottish and welsh people exist. I'm sure you would be the first to complain of the harsh treatment of say aborigines or native americans being badly treated and pushed off their lands, but it's not ok for the english to complain about the same thing happening to them.

    I hope you don't agree with gangofone that there are no differences between races, it doesn't matter I realise that, but if we were all the same here, why would the Nolan Trust be looking for minority ethnic donors? Surely the english could donate tissue if it was a match to the other races here?

  • Comment number 63.

    THE ULTIMATE PREJUDICE (#61)

    As a generality (!) most people are attracted to 'their own face'. Both marriage photos, in the local paper, and the intense attraction between siblings separated when very young, support this.

    Mother Nature has a plan. It isn't multiculturalism, or she would have equipped ALL OF US - not just the enlightened few.

    Nature also pairs us off with the man taller. Anyone want to try to go against that in the name of Equality? And there's more . . .

  • Comment number 64.

    #58

    Mistress76uk

    A very observant retalliation to DJ, whose probably seething with jealousy. If he's juggling with debt then it must be his own fault. Gambling perhaps? Relying on whom to get him out of the mess he's created for himself, I wonder? Not that I'm bothered about his future.

    Re: the Guardian competition

    I don't really believe in lists as an outstanding person's achievements and contributions should not be measured by numbers but rather by their own uniquness and appreciation by those who come into contact with the given person or their work. In Jeremy's case it's his appearances and discussions/interviews on Newsnight, the way he conducts the University Challenge, his BBC films, like the one about the Victorian paintings and his books, with 'The English' having been incorporated into the school curriculum. Nevertheless, I have voted for him as you've suggested. Will you let us know about the progress of that?

    mim

  • Comment number 65.

    #62 ecolizzy

    You just don't read well do you?

    "I hope you don't agree with gangofone that there are no differences between races, it doesn't matter I realise that, but if we were all the same here, why would the Nolan Trust be looking for minority ethnic donors?"

    If a geneticist says that there is greater genetic variation within a race than BETWEEN races then the clear indication from science, that I am happy to accept is that there is no evidence of any great differences between the races.

    You propose a false argument in that everybody accepts there is variation in susceptibility to disease - just as there is within a race so for instance heart disease is more prevalent here than in Italy.

    Cultural arguments are just as devoid of coherence as clearly somebody can belong to a culture and not be of the same race.

    To argue that is simply muddled thinking.

  • Comment number 66.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 67.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 68.

    #57 thegangofoney:
    “You believe a kangaroo has culture?”

    Better take a break phoney. You’ve just had your previous 3 blogs binned for breaking the house rules, and you've now lost all sense of humour!

    “The point that you are unable to grasp is that if there is no science behind notions of racial difference.”

    Unlike you, I keep an open mind on this and other issues, and once again, my concern is with CULTURE not RACE. (read before cut-and-paste).

    “Hence as there is no science and there is law you may not like people of a foreign culture who are immigrants in our country but you have to obey the law as it is just and you have no basis on which to challenge it.”

    Spoken like a LibWhimp! I’ll follow science and my conscience any time when it proves the law to be an ass (perhaps I need to explain English metaphors, analogies and similes - I don’t really think the law is actually a 4-legged animal, any more than I’m really worried about real live kangaroos in my street)

    “As for culture and race the problem you have is almost everybody knows somebody of race who is British in culture.”

    Bingo! You’ve got it! ‘British’ culture has become a mixed bag of all imported cultures, including many that are alien and totally non-ENGLISH.

    “As I say the far right is essentially an anti-intellectual power grab by replacement monarchists who rely on cult perceptions of their followers to facilitate the said power grab.”

    Another of your phoney cut-and-paste homilies. And I don’t accept your use of ‘far right’. I find empathy with those (few) who wish to conserve English culture and not those who want to make England a melting pot of cultures. And please don’t quote EHRC to me as its blatantly bias mandate is not one that I have any wish to see inflicted on my society or family. We are making our way in life by observing natural rules and working for our betterment. We clearly are not all born equal, but some make more of their lives than others, through capacity and culture. Genes are only part of the equation.

  • Comment number 69.

    #60 kevseywevsey

    "Maybe that would explain why the jews run the world. My agents Jewish, maybe I should ask him eh."

    Yes you do that and you tell him what your views on the world are. Money on the table says he will get a pretty clear picture quite quickly.

    This is the rewording but I can't see what was wrong with the original.

  • Comment number 70.

    #50 debtjuggler

    "Well...I suppose it will put a stop to our goose-stepping activity, which isn't easy on the legs!"

    Your "Jewish hegemony" posts aren't too easy on your head I would imagine.

  • Comment number 71.

    #61 barriesingleton

    "Mother Nature has a plan. It isn't multiculturalism, or she would have equipped ALL OF US - not just the enlightened few."


    Your proposed enlightenment was gained from your exchanges with the National Socialist jaded_jean I imagine?

  • Comment number 72.

    #49 ecolizzy

    Nobody disputes there are cosmetic differences such as skin colour and hair texture. But as above, science says that there is greater genetic variation within a race than between races.

    There is no evidence for significant IQ variation that can't be explained by environmental factors.

    Culture is not racially dependent.

    I do not "insult you" I simply identify your views and refute them.

  • Comment number 73.

    tax

    fairness again. fairness is not the highest idea of the mind. it demands human sacrifice. its no wonder it creates complex absurdities.

  • Comment number 74.

    iraq inquiry

    the evidence after m15 was perhaps more revealing of the the total recklessness that was still in evidence in 2008. No one in charge. People making it up as they go along.

  • Comment number 75.

    HOW DO YOU DO THAT GANGO?

    A post containing a reasoned position appears. You then ignore the reasoning, and make unrelated wild assertions.

    Where is the satisfaction in that? It is not debate, by any definition I can find. Indeed - the only thing your behaviour approximates to, in my experience, is POLITICS. Nuff sed.

  • Comment number 76.

    DELUSIONAL OUT-OF-CONTROL MALES R US IT SEEMS - HIGH AND LOW (#74)

    They easily take up arms, and they hold human life cheap. But how can it be that one ends up ignominiously dead while the other is gloriously feted?

    Answer THAT question, and we might be on the way to a better world.

    Don't mess with this one Gango - too serious.

  • Comment number 77.

    Newsnight showed a piece with Cameron on US tv. He said we are the junior partner, we always have been. We were the junior partner in 1940.

    How dare he! US was not even a partner in 1940. At that time, they were milking the British cow for all it was worth, as their President said, but Britian losing all it's wealth does not make it a junior partner. In 1940 We were on our own with our Imperial partners. They would of still been in a depression for many more years, if it was not for that war.

    Comparing Britain today with what was a completley different Country called Britain back in 1940 is wrong. Our population was over 48 million compared to United States back then of 123 million. From having a population two and a half times bigger than us back then, they now have a population over four times bigger. With an Empire population of 100s of millions and it's contribution, Britain alone, or Britain and the rest of the Empire together, was not a junior partner.

    On a political level, Americans, especially Obama, are not to be trusted. The general population are ok folk. But Cameron as a Prime Minister needs to be robust, stop apologzing for everything, not physically patted on the back by anybody, travel in a Jag over there (and Europe too) if they want to travel in their own cars while over here, and don't be taken in by this special relationship rubbish and Obama's niceness. He also needs to make sure our Country and our Government is treated with respect and never spoken down to. That's all I wanted to say.

  • Comment number 78.

    77

    one of the strategic aims of the usa in ww2 was to use it to break the power of the british empire. which is what happened.

  • Comment number 79.

    77

  • Comment number 80.

    78
    You are right, I know and agree.

    79
    I don't disagree with any of that. He had to tread carefully too over these issues. I'm just making obviuos points of what is needed, and people want to see. I'm sure he knows that.

    The main point was about the World War Two mistake, or maybe he was playing to their vanity again. I mean for example, it's not as so the US navy had overtaken the Royal Navy in size until 1943-44, so no junior stuff there. No need for anybody to get upset, we are all friends.

  • Comment number 81.

 

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