BBC BLOGS - Newsnight: From the web team
« Previous | Main | Next »

Monday 22 March 2010

Verity Murphy | 11:25 UK time, Monday, 22 March 2010

UPDATE - MORE DETAIL ON TONIGHT'S PROGRAMME:

Who do you trust to protect your job, income and the future of Britain's economy?

Tonight, just days away from the last Budget before the general election, we have a special live debate between two of the biggest political figures from the last 30 years - the Business Secretary Lord Mandelson and his Conservative shadow, Ken Clarke.

We'll also hear from the Liberal Democrat's Business spokesman John Thurso.

Also on the programme, our Political editor Michael Crick on the lobbying allegations that have rocked Westminster. More revelations are expected later tonight.

And don't forget that we need your help for Pop-Up Politics. Like the temporary shops that pop-up on our recession-hit high streets, Newsnight plans to "pop-up" in your community.

This week we are focussed on the Budget.

Click here to send us your idea on what Justin Rowlatt should be reporting and from where on Wednesday.


ENTRY FROM 1125GMT:

Our Economics editor Paul Mason is taking a look at our fragile economy and will be examining how each of the parties thinks they can secure economic recovery.

We'll be joined in the studio by Secretary of State for Business Peter Mandelson, and his Conservative and Liberal Democrat shadows, Kenneth Clarke and John Thurso.

Then our politics editor Michael Crick will be explaining the rules of political lobbying - how exactly does it work and how transparent is it?

And Justin Rowlatt has been to Livingston in West Lothian for the first instalment of Newsnight's Pop-up Politics. He asked people there about the state of trust in politics.

On Wednesday, Pop-Up Politics will be looking at Chancellor Alistair Darling's last Budget before the general election. Tell us your stories about how the recession has affected you and thoughts on the economy and we could be despatching Justin Rowlatt your way. Pop onto Pop-Up Politics to tell us your ideas on what we should report and where.


Comments

  • Comment number 1.

    On business two big question are how and when do we rebalance the economy and how and when do you break up the big banks and section of the riskier sides?

    On lobbying I am more concerned about what legislation and processes in government have been affected than in Byers being prosecuted.

    Could recent police revelations about infiltrating legal protest groups - though clearly where violent protest was being planned that is quite justifiable - could our security apparatus be used by the government Watergate style to tap into opponents?

    Has Damian McBride given evidence to the HoC yet - as Blair promised Labour would be whiter than white you would hope he would do so before an election?

  • Comment number 2.

    It may be a non story but what of Griffins eye and its relevance to the upcoming elections?

    I have watched Bear Grylls many times and he cheerfully builds a fire in the most extreme situations. But he never reaches into his pocket and pops a shotgun cartridge into the fire and then continues to sit next to it.

    This is what Griffin is alleged to have done. I can't think why.

    Meanwhile the BNP seem to be quite sensitive about Prevent associating lone wolf far right would be bombers and terrorists with their views.

    But they "aren't a Nazi party" they are "modern and progressive". They are just Nationalists who would replace democracy with National Socialism - is that like being a Nazi?

  • Comment number 3.

    i see gordon wants townies to subsidise the broadband of the equestrian class.

    cameron wants a planned economy over energy?

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article7070312.ece

    meanwhile back in the carbon markets created upon the belief in bogus science

    Hunt for ‘rogue trader’ over recycled carbon credits
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article7069741.ece

    bank tax
    it seems the mistake the politicians are making are not stressing that any tax on banks would be a temporary tax while the industry was benefiting from public support that keeps them all afloat.

  • Comment number 4.

    #1 - 'and how and when do you break up the big banks and section of the riskier sides?'

    They cant even deal with bankers bonuses and they allow the continued Credit Default Swap and other exotic delusions that are a 'reality of modern finance' what chance to break them up ? It will take disaster or people moving their money out of the big banks. Does the BBC want to talk about this ? Why don't you have Arianna Stassinopoulos on NN ?

    http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/willie/2010/0310.html

    We will see more and more strikes as more truth of two years ago sets in. Then it will again increase as the banks go totally awol with reality setting up their little clubs of delusion.

    When is humanity going to deal with the real problem - the very nature of how we perceive money and what it does to our behaviour.

  • Comment number 5.

    A TALE TOLD BY AN IDIOT, FULL OF SOUND AND FURY...SIGNIFYING ....NOTHING.


    I imagine TONIGHT will go something like:

    Paul Mason will do a really good pull no punches well researched and backed up by economic fact journalistic piece on the economy ITS INTERNATIONAL SETTING and the limited and painful options any incoming government has.

    The candidates for the prospective incomming governments will swiftly shift any debate away from Paul's report and into a political point scoring game of meaningless intellectual tennis.

    Jeremy will get frustrated with this and in an attempt to get our 'leaders' to give a straight answers (or indeed any answer)will repeat questions numerous times. He will be ignored via their silky rhetoric which they take such pride in but the people hate.


    At the end of it we will be left with the impression that Paul's Journalistic work is very important, along with the usual sense of hopelessness that accompanies anything that involves listening to politicians talking, plus a lingering sense of sympathy for Jeremy, who has to sit next to these shape shifters pretending to be 'leaders' every night.


    Repeat the above ad nauseum until May 5th when we will get what we deserve i.e. a big chunk of the country will not bother to vote because they are so disillusioned with them all.

    Those that do vote will not be able to reach a collective clear electoral decision (hung parliament), which will be as a direct result of not really having any genuine choices or philosophical vision presented to them. The markets will have a baby, there will be panic and the conservatives and lib dems will form an emergency coallition. Hopfully with vince as chancellor not Camerons mate from Eton and we will struggle on.

    Perhaps NN would like to give this 'man on the street perspective' to our politicians this evening straight after Pauls report as an offering to give them an opportunity to prove me (the common man representing hard working families and small business) wrong. They can then enter into an unleveraged intellectual debate on the securing the future of this country. How refreshing that would be.

    Of course that would never happen either.

    and the losers are ...THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY PRIMARILY HARD WORKING FAMILIES AND SMALL BUSINESS they all pretent to protect and in whose best interests they behave.

    How I would so like to be wrong about the above.... lets see shall we.



    Jericoa.




  • Comment number 6.

    Why were the UAF (united against fascism) allowed to run riot in Bolton town centre. This violent organisation should be banned. They are violent and nasty and gave the police a hard time. unlike the EDL (the English defence league) who protested peacefully. like I've already said' the UAF should be banned.

  • Comment number 7.

    'Our Economics editor Paul Mason is taking a look at our fragile economy and will be examining how each of the parties thinks they can secure economic recovery.'

    If it were not for our not having the Euro, would we be one of the PIGS?

    Is BA's (not too well hidden) agenda not more denationalization/Euopeanization?

    Is the Thatcherite/anarchistic gist of this comment sound?

    Did the Obama Administration watch too much Mission Impossible in their youth, or is this just another way to socialise bad debt, and if so, why the almost bi-partisan split in the vote?

    How about some analysis of the USA demographics from Paul and some projections based on the correlations between those and GDP? If Obama is truly a miracle worker, will he extend his gift to Africa? If not, why not?

  • Comment number 8.

    :o( RIP Harry Carpenter.....

  • Comment number 9.

    6. kevseywevsey 'like I've already said' the UAF should be banned'

    But fascists are evil statists are they not? Doesn't that make anti-fascists 'good'? Surely you don't want to ban what's good?

  • Comment number 10.

    SOMETHING TO ASK PINKY AND PERCY.

    Mandelson and Clarke must choose to be fool, knave, or both. Neither can claim they are innocent strangers who wandered, lost, in the Westminster miasma.

    Ask each what they knew (and tacitly signed up to) of the plethora of evils that were hidden from the public until recently. What kind of 'honour' allows connivance at such self-serving deceit, by pretender-representatives of the general public, in a purported democracy?

  • Comment number 11.

    #7 statist

    "Is the Thatcherite/anarchistic gist of this comment sound?

    Did the Obama Administration watch too much Mission Impossible in their youth, or is this just another way to socialise bad debt, and if so, why the almost bi-partisan split in the vote?

    How about some analysis of the USA demographics from Paul and some projections based on the correlations between those and GDP?"

    Tut tut! As ever you allude to problems and solutions. For instance you often ascribe anarchism to Thatcherites - but then what you are really plugging is National Socialism and you think half the world is Thatcherite. You don't want to say that up front because even you are aware that the Nazis have rather been exposed as a bunch of "replacement monarchists" who stole some communist clothes. Hence your Leninist reference the other day - to show you read n'all - but Hitler threw in some baseless racial theory that people like you disseminate to this day like latter day Haw Haws.

    This despite the fact that science has in fact shown that all of the races are in fact incredibly similar as we came out of Africa and there has been no evolutionary time or cause for forking.

    So you throw some vague criticism of Obama over socializing bad debt because he has the genetic advantages of mixed race despite the fact that you are supposed to be promoting socialism/statism. Never mind the impact of what would have happened had he not acted.

    Your equally vague and puerile comment on demographics is because you can't be exact when you try to imply there is a Jewish hegemony - because there is no basis to what you say. You know that or you would have taken your evidence off to the EHRC to prove that your rights have been affected but like a cult member who deep down knows full well their beliefs are a tissue of lies you persist with your hateful chanting.

    You really are quite pathetic and a chip of Hitlers block intellectually - that isn't a compliment by the way.

  • Comment number 12.

    THE GAMES PEOPLE PLAY (#5)

    How does it go: 'Educate, inform and entertain'?

    Well, I haven't sampled the OU programmes for a long time - are they now 'Edutainment'. Documentaries are, most certainly, 'Docutainment' and news, of course, 'Infotainment'. (I reckon NN could win a rap competition with their musically backed paedophilia routine.)

    Entertainment itself, has slipped right off the 'Tainment' scale - not surprising, with the pressure from 'above', as everything sinks. What was entertainment, is now multifaceted tormenting of the greedy and gullible. What shall we call it - Hellmation?

  • Comment number 13.

    4. flicks 'We will see more and more strikes as more truth of two years ago sets in.'

    You can see why this doesn't sink in just by reading some responses to comments on this blog over recent years. Most people receive what they don't know/believe with the quite peculiar (but predictable) extreme emotional response (if you think about it a bit) often represented by 'That's not what I think/believe!'..... This is at the basis of learning aka behaviour change. It reflects an innate fear of the novel, or unfamiliar - i.e not-self. It is mediated by very powerful chemical systems, and I'm sure we all differ along a dimension here.

    Imagine this response in a school/university from pupils/students. It does happen....;-)

    Now, imagine a choice: do you wish to employ someone form a country which has lots of experience and bases its training on a successful state enterprises run by lots of other bright people which show they can run railroads, airlines etc, or do you want to employ consultants from UK or USA etc where most of what people do is error.. make lattes etc?

  • Comment number 14.

    Going back to the Catholic Church abuse saga was the problem really celibacy that created the paedophilia or excessive deference that allowed the problem to remain hidden?

    Similarly has the political sleaze continued for so long due to a misplaced deference to the politicians - and when the light of investigation into expenses revelations things change? Unless you are an ex-Labour lobbyist/cab who perhaps didn't think the call for a clean up referred to them. Most 'umbly sorry I am sure that they are...

    Perhaps due to our old class system - that does not really exist so much today yet the toffs n'unions parties need it to persist to function - we have deference embedded in our culture.

    Perhaps we should get serious about constitutional change and like the US incorporate real checks and balances on power and make people in power earn respect rather than expect it as a given.


  • Comment number 15.

    10. barriesingleton 'Ask each what they knew (and tacitly signed up to) of the plethora of evils that were hidden from the public until recently. What kind of 'honour' allows connivance at such self-serving deceit, by pretender-representatives of the general public, in a purported democracy?'

    And the answer is, this is a liberal-democracy, not a statist democracy like the PRC. Our politicians (unlike theirs) facilitate freedom of the markets and businesses. They strive not to burden the electorate with too much Government and regulations. Instead, they 'give them' 'freedom'.

    I'm beginning to worry that you may be having too mnay 'senior moments'. You appear to think we live in a 'dictatorship'. That ended long ago, the Americans wouldn't allow it ;-)

  • Comment number 16.

    SNOOKER PLAYERS STEP AWAY FROM THE TABLE AFTER FOULING UNNOTICED

    Snooker players come from all walks of life and a wide range of 'education'. I suggest that when a player makes such a sacrifice, as described in my title, his 'reward centre' is activated. HE KNOWS HE IS GOOD. Theoretically, life can run on similar lines. Reportedly, it has done so in some places and times in the past. This is surely functioning honour and integrity which, if woven into a culture, brings a better life for all.

    Perhaps it is man's tendency to invent cop-out gods, and then progressively ignore their strictures, that allows atrophy of fundamental INTERNAL honour. If we could take responsibility for our lives, back into our own being - individually - we might do a lot better collectively.

  • Comment number 17.

    YOU MIGHT WISH TO ACKNOWLEDGE MY RELATIVE SENIORITY STATIST (#15)

    I couldn't possibly comment.

  • Comment number 18.

    Mr B. 'Hi, I've got a questin for you.'
    Mr A. 'OK, fire away'
    Mr B. 'Well, some of my friends would like you to do this little thing for them, they say it would help their buiness'
    Mr A. 'Oh, no, there's no way we could do that, I have to look after the interest of the taxpayers'
    Mr B. 'Fine, I thought you'd say that, that's why I asked. No harm in asking eh? I got paid 5K for that you know!'
    Mr A. 'Daft aren't they? By the way, what if I'd said yes?'
    Mr B. 'Oh you joker...you know I would never have asked you!'

  • Comment number 19.

    #15 Statist,

    "You appear to think we live in a 'dictatorship'. That ended long ago"

    You appear to be confused between the modern manifestation of Neoliberalism (purported superiority of freedom of markets) that has engulfed the world since the 1970s, with the more recent contorted co-opting by Neoconservativism (e.g. return of US nationalism & military authoritarianism as agent of empire). The two are reluctant but effective bed-fellows. See "Rise of Neoliberalism" by David Harvey.

    You are only seeing one side the coin. We have a two speed culture:

    Anarchism for the rich - economic serfdom for the masses (a.k.a. Privatised profits and socialised losses.)

    I doubt any political party has the gumption to admit this, let alone the ability to turn the recent tide :-(

  • Comment number 20.






    Response to ....

    At 11:19pm on 19 Mar 2010, Statist wrote:

    Thanks for the reference point, most noticeably some posters have been at ‘this’ a lot longer than I have.

    Wanting to ‘have my say’ - for whatever deep rooted reason not likely to ever be fully sic formulated - I have seemingly suppressed the old maxim ....

    “There’s no such thing as originality, just undetected plagiarism.”

    Ironically, for a variety of reasons, I failed to include the entire text of my - intended - post in the copy and paste process. Tacked on the end of my post at 44 on Friday .... should have read ....


    So ....

    Are we ever going to see a logical, sensible effective policy to deal with the issue?

    Back to the present ....

    I have to wonder if, as seemingly with many other previous posters, this question - variations included, will become my mantra?





    In view of Mr Top Con’s latest strategy statement ( Yet another “commitment”?) on taxing the banks ....

    An investment tip for which I will not charge. (AKA. A genuinely free lunch!)....

    Invest in overseas commercial properties. i.e. New York, Tokyo Paris etc.



    It is staggering how the ‘system’ works ....

    The latest ‘forward leaning celebrity’ ....

    Be the product of the loins of someone famous, rich or both. Do something that - supposedly - outrages the - supposed - encyclopaedia of incontrovertible middle class morality and you are pretty much guaranteed, never mind talent or a history of ‘effort’, a career in the media.

    Opium for the masses .... Superficiality roolz!

    OK! .... What is this omniscient obsession for style over substance? .... Hell Oh!

    All those that ‘do’ the education route, the apprenticeships, internships and ‘sweatshop‘ work experience just don’t have a chance ....

    It’s not what you know ......

    It’s your family lineage!


    At 8:50pm on 16 Nov 2009, JAperson


    Interesting to see that both ‘Nu’-bies are now pledging to curb lobbyists as a result of both parties being caught out ....

    Don’t worry guys, the legislation isn’t necessary.

    Make lobbyists Prospective Parliamentary Candidates, shower them with cash in their allocated constituencies and bamboozle the GBP into the need for change!

    Saves all the intellectualised massed debates in the lower house which will only get ‘wasted’ if it goes to the ‘other place’.

    Oops! Please amend above .... “for change’” to read ‘to regress’

    Anyway .... We’ve been given the numbers so now we can do the maths ....

    3k to 5k per day equals potentially 699k to 1.16 million per annum.

    (365 times 5 over 7 minus 28 days holiday.)

    So individuals may still go into politics for the benefit of the masses sic but they get the reward - for all their toil sic - when they leave. And does this occur for departees from both sides of the house? And, if this is the case, do they actually need their relocation allowance? (Which, as you may know, is to help them adjust to no longer being an HMP. Question: How many workers are guaranteed a ‘relocation allowance’ prior to going on JSA?

    And since when has any party kept to it’s manifesto?

    Yet another cigarette paper in use.


    Seems that the Lib Doms immigration policy is in even more of a mess than thought.

    But why has Jon Sopel not allowed the asking of these same questions to No. 1 Nu Lab man and will he ask Top Con?





    Thought for the day ....

    Stikz ’n’ stones may break bones though posts are always ephemeral.

  • Comment number 21.

    19. Hawkeye_Pierce 'You appear to be confused between the modern manifestation of Neoliberalism (purported superiority of freedom of markets) that has engulfed the world since the 1970s, with the more recent contorted co-opting by Neoconservativism (e.g. return of US nationalism & military authoritarianism as agent of empire). The two are reluctant but effective bed-fellows. See "Rise of Neoliberalism" by David Harvey.'

    Appearances can be deceptive. So can language.

    Stick to the notion that liberal-democracy=anarchism and that anything else is spin for people who can be seduced by verbal rhetoric (higher education a pre-requisite usually, hence 'education, education, education') and you'll not go too far wrong. ;-)

  • Comment number 22.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 23.

    20. JAperson 'Are we ever going to see a logical, sensible effective policy to deal with the issue?'

    Not unless more 'people' recognize the inevitability of having to do as they're told instead of 'arguing' all the time. Who were those people who said kids/students etc should be encouraged to question everything? It doesn't happens in maths, science and engineering lessons/lectures (except to discover the right way to do as one's told!!).

    A serious thought for today's liberals (especially female ones) who generally shun such lessons/lectures for some reason! ;-)

  • Comment number 24.

    20. JAperson 'Opium for the masses .... Superficiality roolz!'

    It used to be religion, these days it's 'education'... but not as we once knew it.

  • Comment number 25.

    Ken Clarke, that would be the man who gave the stock market parasites just the weedy excuse they needed to close and asset strip most of the manufacturing industry in the north of the UK with the Road Fuel Tax Escalator. The Ken Clarke policy which led to a virtual civil war over fuel prices in 2000, perhaps good for false economic growth which increases the financial apartheid between rich and poor. Not forgetting the Ken Clarke who introduced traffic calming and now pollution in towns is as bad as it was before the Clean Air Act. Not forgetting the hemophiliacs he infected with his buy blood products from US prisons on the cheap policy as health minister. Are we really foolish enough to want this Ken Clarke man having anything to do with running our country in the future ?

  • Comment number 26.

    19. Hawkeye_Pierce You need to get the grain of the analysis right. Most people who write about these matters don't, as they analyse words or 'concepts' rather than behaviour. This is what is taught in the social sciences. There is a difference. Human behaviour is not so finely grained. One has to class it in terms of its outcomes, i.e its consequences. Behaviour science is a branch of biology, so is behavioural economics. Social 'science' like cognitive 'science' is no science at all. That's because of a problem with how it ascribes membership of classes. The result is that, quite literally, most social/cognitive 'scientists' don't know what they are talking about. They are predominantly female too, which goe sa long way to explaining this given differences in skills between the sexes, especially at the upper end of the ability distribution. Fact.

  • Comment number 27.

    Dispaches channel 4 now. political sleaze. Blood sweat and tears ( good band)
    2 pay mp' s wages? Not a good idea. Give 2 charity but check how much the boss
    pays him/ herself first.

  • Comment number 28.

  • Comment number 29.

    27. dAllan169 I'm not so sure you know. I wonder how many of these journalists really understand how Parliamentary Democracy works? MPs don't do much that really matters unless it's in the legislative process and that's highly technical outside the voting itself, and there they're subject to the Whip most of the time. That's all a painstakingly tedious process of debates, 1st, 2nd and 3rd Readings and Committee Stages. Meeting an MP etc is therefore a bit like going to a business lunch or fund raiser etc, i.e. it's just PR and celebrity nonsense for the vain and confused who either like to say that they 'know' X, Y and Z or think that it's good publicity for their businesses. If people want to pay MPs for this 'networking'....more fool them, and in some cases, maybe it does help, just like any celebrity product associations etc do?

    If anyone doesn't like this, they should vote for a non liberal-democratic form of government. The problem is, such parties are as rare and credible as hen's teeth.

  • Comment number 30.

    It's a shame we don't seem to get view and opinions on these pages from people actually active in the world. Perhaps they don't think much of the quality of mosts of the posts on here sent by people who sit in front of their computers all day and either killing their time or imagining themselves to be in charge of the world. It's all becoming more and more tedious and even sickening at times.

  • Comment number 31.

    30. mimpromptu 'It's all becoming more and more tedious and even sickening at times.'

    Perhaps this is evidence that you are spending to much unrewarding time on this blog, or, you're fighting too hard against learning?

  • Comment number 32.

    'too much unrewarding time'

  • Comment number 33.

    #30 should have been 'views and opinions'

    Besides, one of the tedious bloggers doesn't only seem like a boring old f... but also like a parasytic worm.

  • Comment number 34.

    #31

    Oh, I'm learning but from much brighter people than yourself. As Gango said the other day, you're pretentious, etc. I would reinforce it further by saying that you are a pretentious megalomaniac.

  • Comment number 35.

    Statist

    Undoubtedly, the Neoconservative agenda has appealed to many in the US through the shallow medium of rhetoric.

    However, what are the recent "behaviours" of the US, such as the Patriot Act, Guantanamo Bay, unilateral intervention (i.e. invasion of other sovereign states), curbing of press freedoms, incarceration and the death penalty, if not manifestations of (dictatorial) Authoritarianism?

    The state monopoly of violence has not diminished. Far from it: "We live in a society in which the inalienable rights of individuals to private property and the profit rate trump and other conception of inalienable rights" - Harvey.

    As I said above, I partly agree with you, there is anarchism for the chosen few, but for the rest of us there is economic subservience through conditioned docility and compliance!

  • Comment number 36.

    Oh dear, Newsnight, not Ken Clark. He never achieved anything on the economic front. However he did trash the education system.

    As for the prediction that growth will only be £2bn. How do they know that? The people making those predictions are the same ones who in January 2008 could not predict that Lehman Bros were on the verge of bankruptcy or that NY and London stock markets would collapse.

    You should have had Michael Heseletine on for an exploration of ideas. At least he did achieve some economic credibility with his sorting out of Liverpool after the riots.
    In 1992 he came up with the idea of local enterprise boards. The one in the North West has been successful and is still running.


  • Comment number 37.

    33. mimpromptu like a parasitic worm.

    e.g. a nematode? ;-).

    Is that you being personally offensive? That's against House Rules you know. It'a also an ad hominem, which is logically unsound. Maybe you should stick to dealing with the propositions?

    See if you can disentangle (discriminate) the two: a) the proposition or sentential content vs. b) the author. Which do you dislike?

    Some people like nematodes. Are you discriminating against (slurring) nematodophiles? Are you nematodaphobic? ;-)

  • Comment number 38.

    35. Hawkeye_Pierce 'However, what are the recent "behaviours" of the US, such as the Patriot Act, Guantanamo Bay, unilateral intervention (i.e. invasion of other sovereign states), curbing of press freedoms, incarceration and the death penalty, if not manifestations of (dictatorial) Authoritarianism?'

    They were trying to protect their economic anarchism against the threat of Statism. They named it - Islamo-Fascism. Anti-usury. The founder of Baathism was a Catholic. Stalin was an Orthodox Christian, and Hitler was Catholic. See Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece. It was Statism which the International Brigades went to war against in the Spanish Civil War, Orwell/Blair amongst them. Stalin didn't help them. He opposed them. Why has the Catholic Church been attacked recently? Are there no Rabbi paedophiles?

  • Comment number 39.

    34. mimpromptu 'Oh, I'm learning but from much brighter people than yourself. As Gango said the other day, you're pretentious, etc. I would reinforce it further by saying that you are a pretentious megalomaniac.'

    Maybe you should pick your friends more carefully? ;-)

  • Comment number 40.

    BBC News web site: 'UK manufacturing output sees strong growth'.

    "Stronger-than-expected manufacturing figures have raised hopes of an upward revision to the UK's economic growth in the last three months of 2009.

    The Office for National Statistics (ONS) said that manufacturing output grew by 0.9% in December, which was much stronger than had been forecast...... "

  • Comment number 41.

    Oh!....Ken Clark's slip that manufacturing in the UK collapsed in the 1980's was lamentable...

    Que Statist...

    ...and when Jeremy asked Mandelson to define 'advanced manufacturing' the only way he could respond was to point a figer to his forehead. That probably represents the size of it...a pea!

    If it wasn't so serious it would be funny.

  • Comment number 42.

    Brown's vision of a manufacturing Britain is fairyland politics and rhetoric, with their overpowering legislation; human rights, health and safety BS; thousands of businesses are being put out of business. Labour's policy; Browns policy as Chancellor, for example was to impose full NDR business rates on small businesses who had not customers; had no business; had bills coming in and that is why the UK is now littered with thousands of premises; works, pubs, buildings razed to the ground; literally demolished; placing many business owners into bankrupty as they have to find money to pay fixe cost bills including Brown's Business Rates. Frankly Labour couldn't give a damn about small businesses as seen time and time again; the car manufactures only count; employing large numbers of workers who are voters. For me; I will never vote for this bankrupt bunch of crooks ever again and will do my best to ensure others do not vote for them. Labour is finished: Period

  • Comment number 43.

    Today it is reported that Bricklaying and electrical courses are closed to many applicants.....but there is some good news; in Brown's vision for a manufacturing UK; beauticians, therapists, ballroom dancers classes are booming.....a nation of beautiful posers it seems who will be unable even to change a fuse in a three pin plug.

  • Comment number 44.

    I understand that there is a good chance of a hung parliament....will it be a public hanging ?

  • Comment number 45.

    The Lib called Ken and Mandy "political heavy weights".

    Ken Clark was once a political heavy weight; Mandy has never been, nor is, or ever will be a "Political heavy weight"..he just thinks he is. Mandy is a drama queen who would not know how to run a hot dog sausage stand let alone anything remotely important...this poor example of a man would starve in the real world. I do hope Mandy is wheeled out from now till the election as he could be the Tories best weapon. Not that I want the Tories to win that is, I trust non of them, other than Frank Field and a couple of others perhaps.

  • Comment number 46.

    ken n mandy show: FANTASTIC STUFF!

    best interview and discussion for years. loads of content and detail from two big beasts and greatest political operators of the modern era. like Ali v Fraser! more please!!! oh for cameron/clegg/brown could debate as passionately and freely as that. but they won't. remeinds me of those old footage of election '79 specials with heath vs hattersley etc.

  • Comment number 47.

    The last comment from Harry Carpenter should be played everyday to the current crop of TV presenters, especially in News.

    -------

  • Comment number 48.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 49.

    Absolutely loved tonight's episode - I wish we could have had Jeremy with Ken Clarke/Peter Mandelson/The Lib Dem guy for the entire programme! The Jeremy/Ken/Peter trio was PRICELESS followed by Micheal's report on the MPs who have been suspended.........

  • Comment number 50.

    41. DebtJuggler 'when Jeremy asked Mandelson to define 'advanced manufacturing' the only way he could respond was to point a figer to his forehead. That probably represents the size of it...a pea!'

    A reference to the 'knowledge' industry? What a spin doctor. As pointed out elsewhere, with a population of 1.1 billion and a mean IQ of 105, China has a much more 'knowledgeable' workforce and a much bigger one where it counts too. This is a Government which has beaten the term 'transparency' to death as well as our manufacturing industry. Mr Mandelson, China now does the metal bashing which you denigrate, what do we do? You are not as clever as you think, nor alas is Britain as a whole. That has nothing to do with schooling, it is about births :-(.

  • Comment number 51.

    34. mimpromptu 'I would reinforce it further by saying that you are a pretentious megalomaniac.'

    On the other hand, what if you believe things which are false? What then?
    That is, what would the logical/practical consequences be?

  • Comment number 52.

    WHERE TO START?

    Twice-disgraced Mandelson, curled that lip and delivered, with disgust: "someone like Stephen Byers". SOMEONE LIKE! Hello Mandy!

    Tobacco Baron Ken, told us how, under his guiding hand, the happy populace were in steady work and the finances were well-ordered. He made no mention of tax-income (or, indeed, personal) from tobacco, nor the MISERY of those too sick to work from tobacco's vile degradation.

    Mandy said: "We are determined, and have ACCEPTED THE DISCIPLINE of halving the debt in 4 years." But the associated DISCIPLINE of: "Or we will" came nowhere near those lips. I have lived my life watching empty political pledges filter into the sand. Power without responsibility.

    As I looked from Mandelson's sneer to Clarke's complacent pucker (with the quiet man, incongruously reminiscent of Lord Lucan) I could not help feeling, yet again, that Westminster elevates PRECISELY the wrong type of individual, and rewards the the most unappealing, unconducive behaviour.

  • Comment number 53.

    #38 Statist 'Why has the Catholic Church been attacked recently? Are there no Rabbi paedophiles?'

    ----------------------

    So do you think Blair is practising 'Entryism'?

  • Comment number 54.

    Barry @ 48. It was certainly worth a try...certainly funny. Well at least it was up 20 mins or so before they pulled it. I'll expect mine will go next. Peter will be making a call no doubt. Mods, hold your ground on this, don't be bullied.

  • Comment number 55.

    A PUT UP JOB (#54)

    Hey Kev - ma main maaaaan! The brevity was a give-away. But I got a copy for my archive. keep breaking the tablets.

  • Comment number 56.

    Wondering why Paul didn't post - he usually gives us something meaty to read and research on. 'Things have moved onto strategy' umm

    There was no mention of banks being broken up or issues of regulation questions from Jeremy, that I heard anyway. And why wasn't Vince Cable on ?

    Guess it will be this lobbying stuff all day today - they are all corrupt - wave money under their nose, and they sing and dance to what ever tune - tell what ever story is required. As Michael Moore says - 'things wont change until money is taken out of politics' and power really is one person one vote

    Matthew Taylor was on the Daily Politics yesterday saying 'it wasn't a case of corruption' - it sure should be Mr former advisor ! But then your in the feudal 'arts' world now - makes sense.

  • Comment number 57.

    Nu labour sleaze that was tony bliarse's ticket 2 get power I do hope
    the partys will leap all over this, make/ spin hay hey while the sun shines
    NO PRISONERs go for the JUGULAR. all's fair in love and war eh?

  • Comment number 58.

    "The Jewish people were building Jerusalem 3,000 year ago and the
    Jewish people are building Jerusalem today," he said. "Jerusalem is not a settlement. It is our capital."


    Netanyahu to AIPAC reported in JTA

    Deadly Language Games

    Mandelson is an angelic political light-weight compared to these masters of spin, and forces of darkness, surely, or is he one of them?.

  • Comment number 59.

    #57

    dAllan169

    That's how I feel, going for the jugular and dancing on their cronies' graves!!

  • Comment number 60.

    IT WASN'T A 'CASE' OF CORRUPTION - MORE A 'TARDIS' SHIPPING CONTAINER (#56)

    "Matthew Taylor was on the Daily Politics yesterday saying 'it wasn't a case of corruption' - it sure should be Mr former advisor ! But then your in the feudal 'arts' world now - makes sense."

    Matthew Taylor is so depressingly 'New Labour Right or Wrong' (Campbell Syndrome) that I have to watch from behind the sofa through fingers.

    Westminster corruption is so pervasive, the deeper you delve the more there is - like the Tardis.

    Apart from 'I LOVE TONY' stamped on his forehead, I have yet to find what the ubiquitous Mr Taylor adds to any program. But if he makes more such statements, he will surely come to qualify as the comedy relief!

  • Comment number 61.

    60. barriesingleton 'Matthew Taylor is so depressingly 'New Labour Right or Wrong' (Campbell Syndrome) that I have to watch from behind the sofa through fingers.'

    He's in a 'think tank' which looks and sounds like it's something other than a 'think tank'. That's just one the problems we have all about us these days, CEOs of 'think tanks' (oh, another is the NGOs and Third Sector).

    But what can anyone do about them? How does one go about providing 'Care In The Community', when most of the people needing it are themselves in The Third Sector?

    What's worse is that some of them are now using an old euphemism for this anarchism - benign neglect!

    Confused? That's 'benign neglect' at work!

    Is it all a cunning plan to make the nation demand statism....?

  • Comment number 62.

    TOUGH ON CRIME, TOUGH ON THE CAUSES OF CRIME - NOT!

    Britain to expel Israeli diplomat over ‘Mossad’ assassination in Dubai
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/7503631/Britain-to-expel-Israeli-diplomat-over-Mossad-assassination-in-Dubai.html

  • Comment number 63.

    Just to be clear 'Is it all a cunning plan to make the nation demand statism....?' is a somewhat cynical question, as it's far more likely, given the sub-prime debacle on both sides of the Atlantic, that what's been going on over a very long period is the encouragement of demand for loans amongst the less cognitively endowed through promotion of a dysgenic birth rate, after all, what businesses want customers who look after their assets, they're much harder for the money-lenders to provide 'services' to, as they will avoid debt given they can more readily perceive the longer term cost. This, I suggest, is really why we've seen so much immigration in recent times, and why it's so politically incorrect to point out major inequalities in intelligence - i.e. it's bad for business because low-skilled immigration and a higher birth rate amongst the less educable increased demand for private housing as well as financial and other services (ever more being privatised and deregulated) when the indigenous birth rate was at a record below replacement level low. :-(

    Tell me how this isn't an accurate description of the figures and trends.

  • Comment number 64.

    #61 statist

    "Is it all a cunning plan to make the nation demand statism....?"


    No especially when you say statism but mean in actual fact National Socialism.

    You should mention your genuine views more openly then if you try to "explicate" things in the hope of taking people "on a journey" they will have a rough idea of where they would be going.

  • Comment number 65.

    Working Lunch -

    The legal right to have a bank account. Ha, how about the legal right to decide what the bank does with your money ie not destroy with CDS. And with regard those with previous convictions for fraud. For a fact, known fraud criminals have been given many bank accounts in the UK. All the banks care about is money.

    A bank account locked into methods to pay and claim benefits is how and why we will all be brought down unless we are unlocked from banks. Take note !

    You claim benefits - you have to have a bank account
    You want to shop online - you have to have a bank account
    You want to pay less for utilities - you have to have a bank account

    We don't want a legal right to have a bank account we need an ALTERNATIVE
    to alleviate social exclusion of being locked into the need to have a bank account.

    Must say Laura Kuenssberg new hair-do is a triumph - good on you.

  • Comment number 66.

    #58 statist

    "Deadly Language Games

    Mandelson is an angelic political light-weight compared to these masters of spin, and forces of darkness, surely, or is he one of them?."

    Whilst I am for 67 borders I can't help but point out that when the people who deny or are "agnostic" on the Holocaust talk about spin its hard to take them seriously. Was there ever such a ludicrous notion - the winners of a war conspire together in their millions to "put people off statism"! Yet Nuremburg stands and the odious Griffin of the BNP could not understand why he had said the things that he said when he was younger.

    The BNP are "not a Nazi Party" they are modern and progressive.

    Its also the case that there was no evidence to cause Hitler to regard Jews as "an internal economic and political threat".

    You also have none that shows there is the alleged "Jewish hegemony" or you would have beetled of to court wouldn't you.

    There is no intellectual basis to your irrationality and you almost certainly have to know that.

  • Comment number 67.

    #38 statist

    "They were trying to protect their economic anarchism against the threat of Statism. They named it - Islamo-Fascism. Anti-usury. The founder of Baathism was a Catholic. Stalin was an Orthodox Christian, and Hitler was Catholic. See Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece. It was Statism which the International Brigades went to war against in the Spanish Civil War, Orwell/Blair amongst them. Stalin didn't help them. He opposed them. Why has the Catholic Church been attacked recently? Are there no Rabbi paedophiles?"

    Many would say that Hitler was to catholicism what an elephant is to a cream doughnut.

    In previous posts - though some as your other incarnation jaded_jean - you have stressed how similar Stalinism and National Socialism was. You used to say that Stalinist was a "statist" as was Roosevelt.

    You used to say that these "statists" made up the Holocaust "to put people off statism".

    There is no real consistency there at all is there and its largely because the ideology is an amoral construct that covers over the driving emotional disorder.

    You hint at being a Catholic. Whilst I would not encourage anybody to organised religion perhaps you should have a sit down and explain your views to a priest?

    Its not that you are pretentious really as over time you see the kind of adolescent and unthinking mutations that embarrass.

    You are almost on a par with Barnbrook plagued by bells and dyslexia that caused him to cite local murders that never happened.

    Do people feel that they are drinking in the truth when they go to such a trough or that they will pick up a nasty infection?

  • Comment number 68.

    for the budget to be credible to the city...

    seeing they created the need for drastic action, is the city credible to the public?


    trust in politicians? what about trust in the reporters?
    could it be arranged for justin to pop up and talk to troops in, say, Helmand?

  • Comment number 69.

    Back in December 2009 the FT published a interesting report on British manufacturing [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    So for Labour to be splashing a bit of cash around now and calling it a industrial policy just before a general election seems more about spin that substance again, that is, in my humble opinion.

    I also came across some revealing figures the other week , see if you can spot what's wrong with them.

    UK............................1999........2009......Percentage

    Av House prices.......£73k........£163k.......123%
    Av Mortgage.............£54k........£112k.......107%
    Av Salary.................£18k..........£21k.........14%
    ConsumerDebt .....£0.56T......£1.45T.......158%
    Gov Budget ...........£354B.......£638B........80%

    I suggest this explains why the markets started to bet that people in this country would start defaulting on their debts, hence the rise in CDSs.

    I know , a thought has crossed my mind “Why bother typing this out.” , maybe its therapeutic to the grim reality the figures are showing me and a antidote to the spin I am hearing to try and convince me “Things, have really got better.”.

  • Comment number 70.

    65. flicks Bank Card, Identity Card - in the end, what's the difference?

  • Comment number 71.

    #64

    Exactly, Gango, how is it supposed to work?

    Dictatorship with no elections with all of us being constantly reminded how stupid we are?

    mim

  • Comment number 72.

    THERAPEUTIC POSTING(#69)

    As Orwell might have said: "All posting is therapy". Even for those who can't accept the truth of it! (:o)

  • Comment number 73.

    69. Steve-London 'I know , a thought has crossed my mind “Why bother typing this out.” , maybe its therapeutic to the grim reality the figures are showing me and a antidote to the spin I am hearing to try and convince me “Things, have really got better.”.'

    Nice to see the figures.

    I guess for some, things did get better. The problem is, too many gullible people take what these politicians say, without being critical of what it really refers to. Some can just mean one person. They really do construct what they say along such lines, and thus avoid lying. That's what's so dispiriting.

    Jericoa's prediction at #5 wasn't too far off the mark.

  • Comment number 74.

    'But how effective is it?

    Less so than its supporters think. Although approved by Nice, a review of 175 trials in the British Journal of Psychiatry published this month concluded that the effects had been exaggerated. Two-thirds of people (67 per cent) improved with therapy, which sounds impressive. However, 40 per cent improved without therapy. So the treatment delivered an extra 27 percentage-point "effect".'

    The Independent 23rd March 2010 (link below)



    This is not so much news to me, but along with all the other evidence (e.g. failure of offender rehabilitation, limits to 'teaching' etc) it's more grist to the nativist mill which more people really do need to take on board in these times of massive, and in my view destructive, demographic change.

    It has its implications with respect to getting others to see the sense of what they are being told to do, and not do too......

  • Comment number 75.

    FSA: Biggest-ever insider-trading raid
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/2010/03/fsa_biggestever_insidertrading.html

    ...anyone else remember Ernest Saunders? (born Ernest Walter Schleyer)

    The only known person alive to have recovered from Alzheimers!

    He was involved in an attempt to manipulate the stock market on a massive scale by inflating the price of Guinness shares and thereby assisting a £2.7 billion take-over bid for the Scottish drinks company Distillers. It was subsequently discovered that he had covertly passed $100 million to the American Ivan Boesky to invest in the share deal shortly before Boesky's prosecution and imprisonment for insider trading.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Saunders

    'It is frequently asserted that Saunders procured his early release by pretending to have Alzheimer's; otherwise, he is the only known person alive to recover from the disease. Gerald Ronson, one of the co-accused in the Guinness scandal implies that he planted the idea in Saunders' head that he should feign mental illness in order to obtain early release. Ronson went on to suggest that this wouldn’t be too difficult for Saunders “because besides being a psychotic liar, he was also mentally deranged”

    Since then, Saunders has worked as a business consultant, including advising mobile phone retailer Carphone Warehouse from its early days until prior to its flotation.

    He was later appointed chairman of the executive committee of a US-based multinational petrol credit-card company, Harpur-Gelco.

    Saunders also acted as a consultant to Seed International Ltd, a company based in the Cayman Islands.'

  • Comment number 76.

    71. mimpromptu 'Exactly, Gango, how is it supposed to work?

    Dictatorship with no elections with all of us being constantly reminded how stupid we are?'

    You appear to be very reluctant to learn, yet you keep asking questions and showing that you believe things which are not true. What are rational observers to think?

    Here are a couple of aids: This one is current.

    You see, a 'dictatorship' of the people is just another democratic system, one where the people elect people to act for them, i.e govern them.

    Now, why do you not understand this?

  • Comment number 77.

    74. The problem is unequal drop out rates between treatment and control groups, that is, in many of these natural experiments (trials) it is hard to measure whether there is a treatment subjects programme bias, i.e. if those who would get better naturally stick with the programme whilst those who don't drop out as a function of their problem just leaving the better ones in the treatment programme. It's the same with offenders (and cognitive acceleration programmes etc), i.e. they all risk being self-selecting. Treatment/programme providers have a vested interest in having their efforts seen in a good light as it's how they earn their living, especially these days. Most depressions seem to get better in time, naturally...cold comfort for many maybe.

    Lots of people will tell you what they think, believe etc, but that's not the same as telling you 'what works' and why.

 

BBC © 2014 The BBC is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.

This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.