Wednesday 11 November 2009
On this Armistice Day we will end tonight's programme with a discussion about the lasting resonance of the Great War poets and the Poet Laureate's poem written for today. Is poetry the most apt medium for conveying loss, bravery, anger and regret? We hope to be joined by the poets Simon Armitage and Andrew Motion.
We will begin though with the state of the UK economy. "Gloomy optimism" would probably best describe the assessment given this morning by the Bank of England. The Governor of the Bank, Mervyn King, said that the recovery had "only just started" and was "highly uncertain." The unemployment rise was the smallest quarterly increase in 18 months, but the youth unemployment rate has reached a record high of nearly 20 per cent. With such a fragile recovery under way, some economists fear that planned spending cuts could lead to another dip.
Tonight we speak to David Blanchflower who - virtually alone in the Bank of England - predicted the nature and scale of the recession months in advance of the markets. And we'll also be joined by DeAnne Julius, a senior economist who is on the board of a number of blue chip companies, and Lord Lamont, who was chancellor during the last recession.
Also tonight, a revolt on childcare vouchers. The government has rejected a warning by no less than nine former Labour ministers (including Patricia Hewitt and Caroline Flint) that phasing out childcare vouchers could harm the party at the general election. The prime minister says this relief is badly targeted but Flint says, "surely this is not the time to remove a key support from hard working families... crucially in the run up to an election, it will remove support for working parents and for businesses in key marginal constituencies".
We have one of the signatories to the letter, and are pursuing government ministers, who at this early stage are proving elusive.
And in the last in our series of film on the noughties - Susan Watts explores the giant leaps that were made in science and especially genetics over the last ten years. One of her interviews even raises the spectre of a "superhuman" in the near future. Read more about that here.
Join us tonight at 10.30pm on BBC Two.
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~42~RS~)
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Why do Newsnight always attempt to portray that David Blanchflower is some kind of financial hero, when in actual fact he was one of the virtual corporate criminals who wanted to keep Pinocchio's nose growing in the world's financial system. If it wasn't for people like Blanchflower squealing for interest rate cuts throughout the last at least 9 years perhaps the cat would have been out of the bag far earlier with much reduced consequences for everybody involved.
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'..."surely this is not the time to remove a key support from hard working families... crucially in the run up to an election, it will remove support for working parents and for businesses in key marginal constituencies". '
Now ain't that the rub. It's LESS about ensuring that those with the greatest need get the greatest support, than it is about... ooh, now let me see - maybe doing the right (but hard) thing that MAY lose you public support in the run up to an election.
I look forward to further debate.
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MODERN MAN - THE TRIUMPH OF CLEVER OVER WISE. BUT WHERE IS SUSAN?
Scientists have been elevated to gods and their guesses to religious dogma. Susan cites the Hubble Telescope in the attached article, but while the telescope is a triumph, Hubble's Constant is an unproved platform on which has been built a sizeable fiction (Hubble did not declare it proved) while his telescope is used to 'validate' a cosmic paradigm covered in peeling stinking-plaster.
As for all the stuff we are finding out: we would do well to be a lot more circumspect in its application. As the circumspect Chinese said, way back: Every day the CLEVER man finds he knows more and the WISE man is a little less certain.
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I am looking forward to the item on the war poets. I strongly suspect there will be little mention of one of which I am inordinately fond.
For its simplicity, its idealism and its naivety but perhaps most its reflecting the almost indecent haste in which many young men in the early days lied about their age in order to join up to have their go at the boche.
HH Asquith's 'The Volunteer ' is interesting if only as the antithesis to the later greats most of us will be familiar.
http://www.dailypoem.co.uk/display.php?pid=150
A similar dichotomy can be found by watching, the 1944 Olivier and 1989 Branagh versions of Henry V. back to back
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my birthday is the 19th March
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Re Paul's question at Inflation Report presentation to Mervyn King re Cameron stopping QE, I found the reply odd. The Bank of England needed the Chancellor's consent to use Central Bank Money for the Asset Purchase Facility as well as agree eligibility of assets with Treasury.Buying gilts required an exchange of letters. Whilst MPC may have the discretion to unwind the fund over time as its been agreed this is a MPC operation I do not see how the BoE can continue purchases beyond 200 billion without Government/ Cameron say so. I also found Mervyn King's suggestion that BoE could not be exposed to losses on private sector assets as odd when the Treasury indemnify the BoE on losses and Alistair Darling authorised 50 billion to be spent on private sector assets.
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Brightyangthing
I'm still at the Tate where I attended Jeremy Paxman' talk on the Victorians. It was very good and I heard many others saying the same. I dared to ask him question to which he responded with his usual honesty and comprehensively. He does have a lovely smile when he is really relaxed. I also witnessed quite a few of his friends talking to him and one of them gave him a present of some soldier images done with a tehnique which I don't know the name of. I asked him a few more questions to which he answered me politely and will soon set out on my way back home. It's a very pleasnt night in London and so I'm looking forward to the bike ride.
How did your evening go, Brightyangthing? I really did like what you said about women but didn't quite understand the end but don't worry about explaining it to me. Sometimes it's good to just contemplate meaning of things.
mim
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#7 Mim
How fantastic for you. Lucky you. Which Tate were/are you at. I had a list of about 30 speakers at Edinburgh to try and see/hear. Jeremy was one. I did get to any of my list as we had to choose a date that a large group could make. Not meant to be. I really enjoyed the tv shows. All helps my improving understanding and appreciation of the arts.
As for understanding or interpreting words and thoughts, I used to worry about getting the 'real' meaning of poetry, but now I believe that what the writer/painter/singer/composer meant matters a little less than what it says to me. There is no right or wrong, just a 'feeling'. If something moves me, or makes me feel a certain way, then that is what it means to me. I may still strive to get deeper meaning but not to prove 'right' or wrong.
My evening. Still working. Bit of a crises, but getting there. Enjoy your cycle.... carefully.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#7
Just to put the record straight, the lines about women were not by me.... they were sent to me in a 'circular email. Take from them what you need!
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Re me at 6
The Chancellor in fact authorised QE asset purchases for the year 2009/2010 and would decide at each budget whether asset purchases should continue. This sounds as if it is the politicians, not BoE, who make the decision to continue.
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#8&10
Brightyangthing
I'm at McDonalds now having some chips as I felt hungry.
Was the end part of the circular, the bit about the spoon, that is?
With regard to tears I quite oftencry when happy and joke and laugh when in pain.
I hope the crises is nothing too serious.
mim
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Brightyangthing
A couple more things about Jeremy.
I wwas always worried about getting nervous when tasking him a question in public or talking to him but I felt as relaxed as could be.
The other thing has always been diffeence in height between us but it turns out that I reach his sshoulders rather than under his armpits so his height didn't at all seem overpowering.
mim
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curious the 'canoe' fraudsters got 6 years and the MEP fraud only got 2? Clearly fraud by publicly elected people entrusted with public money is a less of a crime?
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#13
The bit about the blue touch paper and the wooden spoon (stirring) was me being a little cantankerous, since posting that text was sort of a wind up to Barriesingleton (who I am sure already has the measure of that) who like us women to know our place.
Do you like the Great war poets, being featured at the end of NN tonight?
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OK BLOGDOG - YOU WIN - HERE'S ONE ABOUT YOU - PERHAPS?
(Perhaps when you have chewed my 9 and 11 you will see that the point is 'well made' in this hour of questioning.) Meanwhile:
DOGS OF WAR
As war’s abrasion strips his fine veneer
man’s inhumanity his ilk defines.
Bi-pedal dog, scent-primed, unleashed, packed off
he brings a licking to some wrong-tongued foe.
While back in civvy-street, his leaders rise
short-slept from tasting civilized excess;
this day newborn in sinless rectitude
to move their boarded pawns with gifted guess.
In blinkered ignorance of Conqueror’s Creed
that sets all free from hypocritic bond
war-leaders mire mere men in conflict’s slough
so deep Geneva’s spires are over-topped.
Unheeding they send mortal men to war
yet heed the call when time comes to deplore.
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How on earth did DeAnne Julius get onto the MPC? Trotting out the Taxpayers' Alliance quote about the average salary in the Public Sector being higher than in the Private Sector is really poor stuff. The Public Sector has privatised almost all of the lowest paid roles - cleaning, catering, security, office services and so on. No wonder then that the average salaries are higher. If you looked at most private sector firms you would find that salaries in those firms are higher on average than the salaries in the outsourcing firms that provide them with support - what do we conclude? That comparing like with like is rather more senisble than comparing two entirely different groups and coming to an over simplistic answer.
Ah well, look on the bright side - at least she isn't setting interest rates now!
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As much as I hear what the man said about unemployed hairdressers, I feel sure that we should as a nation be looking to create far more sustantial forms of economic activity, that doesnt mean sweet manufacturers either... more like british based renewables, yes wind turbines in fact!!!
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#16
Brightyangthing
I'm so sleepy after last night of only about 1-hour's sleep that even if I did switch the telly on, I don't think I'd be capable to concentrate anyway. So again, it'll be the iPlayer again at some stage tomorrow. And I still have the UC to watch the first half of having missed it writing to you, I think it was.
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Brightyangthing
Apologies for all those spelling mistakes in #14 but I did it outside McDonalds in the dark in King's Road in Chelsea.
You asked me about which Tate it was where Jeremy spoke about the Victorians. It was the Tate rather than Tate Modern.
By the way, I also had the pleasure of speaking to Tate's Director, Mr Stephen Deuchar who even thanked me for coming to the event. I must admit, I was lucky to get the ticket as it had been completely sold out.
mim
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Great edition tonight - politics, science and poetry. More please!
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JTW #19
Are you living in cloud cuckoo land, the stock market parasites and their Corporate Multinational Cartel have decreed that all wind turbines will be imported in order that they can change money. However, we could build a Severn and Morecambe Bay tidal Barrage system using home grown products. Plenty of work for steel and cement works,, quarries, thousands of potential new jobs perhaps extending to places like Leyland Trucks, JCB and other home grown engineering services. Similarly a national grid for water to ensure the south east never runs dry in the future. Of course all the eco-fascists who promote useless wind farms ( perhaps you need to read back through past blogs ) oppose such potential genuine carbon emission reduction schemes.
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#14 Mim
Funny how we think about and notice different things. I have met/passed by/exchanged a sentence or two with numerous luminaries (I hate the word 'celebrity') over the years. Prince Charles (1980?) and Diana (1988) and Bob Marley (with Johnny Nash) played at my school (1972 r 3), and Vince Cable spoke at a local village hall recently. Never really properly talked to or count as friends anyone really famous. I am sure I would get giggly and flushed. I think I may notice someones eyes or hands before their height or hair colour.
My youngest son was spoken to by the Duke of Edinburgh, on his Duke of Edinburgh award Gold expedition. I thought he find that uncool but he and his team were dead chuffed.
I walked up the steps from Embankment gardens to waterloo bridge about 10 minutes before Georgi Markhov (sp?) was stabbed by a ricin tipped umbrella. I didn't know that at the time. It wasn't me m'lud!
I wonder giving the person you were speaking to, did you introduce yourself as an NN blogger?
Tonights programme was quite weak I thought. Kirsty is very nice but her voice grates and I find I stop listening. I am quite cross about the revolt against withdrawing tax relief from a broad spectrum benefit on child care. More when I have thought about why. I think my day is over. Some answers to dilemma. Will work on it tomorrow. It's just work after all.
p.s.
Just remembered when I lived in NYC in he early 1980's I was next to Christopher Reeve on the Subway. He was tall! Or maybe I am a 5'4.5" midget!
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#24 Brightyangthing
It was Jeremy's face, eyes, hands and hair, and obviously his intelligent and lively presence that I first noticed and liked when he became a presenter on Newsnight. I've mentioned his height only because others have spoken about it, including Boris Johnson when Jeremy had a discussion with him and two other candidates for the post of London Mayor. Jeremy began the discussion by saying 'he wants it', 'he wants it' and 'he wants it', meaning I assumed the Mayoral post but then Boris suddenly spoke about their respective heights!?
With regard to understanding art and the like, I seem to have a similar approach to yours.
I know I wouldn't be at all nervous meeting any other famous person but for some reason I thought I would be with Jeremy and must admit that was a little when I met him previously which happily is not the case any more. Even with the Queen I don't think I would have any problems with just being myself although obviously reserving all the respect fit for the occasion, including curtsing, goes without saying. I sometimes curtsy to one of my ice skating instructors, Sue, but that's just for fun.
So, as I have met Jeremy before and am in correspondence with him, however sparse it may be at present, I didn't have to introduce myself. With Mr Deuchar it just happened. We started walking in the same direction, we smiled at each other and only then I asked him whether he was the Director at Tate and what was his name. He first said Stephen but on further questioning gave me his surname as well. He didn't ask me for my name but I gave it to him anyway, not that he's likely to remember it. Although there is a possibility that he already knew my first name.
mim
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On a completely unrelated topic:
For anyone interested, the main piece of music in last Saturday's (7th Nov.) The Secret Life of the Berlin Wall was Rockets Fall on Rocket Falls, by Godspeed You! Black Emperor, from the album, Yanqui U.X.O.
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I just wanted to let you know, whoever is interested in my posts, that I have bullet proof evidence of Jaded_Jean intensifying his scotoma and sleep deprivation tactics as part of his objection to lack of sexual favours coming his way from the owner of the famous crutch.
I am not sure who seems to be more important and who has more to contribute to the UK and international diplomacy, the crutch owner or Jaded_Jean, but if anyone out there thinks that he will listen to them and come to his senses, they are wrong. He is the madman I spoke about in my ditty yesterday morning. Hitler didn't listen to anybody neither and we know what happened to him in the end so it is now a question of how much more damage Jaded_Jean is allowed to cause before he is finally and definitively challenged.
mim
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Having skipped all the previous items on NN I thought I'd see what Newsnight had prepared for on the manipulation of human beings by science. Kirsty Wark in her introduction to the item gleefully mentioned the 'nuttgate', obviously referring to the moustache sporting Prof David Nutt and the nutters that some of us have communicated about on these pages. One scientist, also gleefully, talked about some 'goose laying golden eggs' but destined to be destroyed, another one, also gleefully, spoke about them being able to manipulate mood swings and mental and physical abilities, etc. Now, with the rumours of the extistence of a 'live robot' and the importance of the famous crutch in policy making in the UK, etc, I would like to suggest that the item is also to do with Jaded_Jean, the nutter.
I have yet to see the last part of NN and shall post my comments about that in a separate entry.
mim
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#16
Brightyangthing
I have now watched the item on Great war poets but must admit that I don't know any. Unfortunately I missed Jeremy Paxman's special documentary about Wilfred Owen when it was shown a few years ago and haven't been able to find a recording of it either.
As I'm still tired because of having been able to sleep 2 hours tonight, I haven't been able to concentrate all that well on what they were talking about exactly. The two things I remember is them talking about the endurance of WWI poetry which rather than glorifying soldiers' participation spoke about the cruelty of it and it was 'interesting' to hear Andrew Motion finishing with quoting a 'short' poem of Wilfred Owen's which speaks about the numbers of those who might 'creep' back from the trenches to the UK.
As there has been quite a lot of talk about NN's CREEPS (as has been the case with the NUTTERS) I just wonder whether JJ and a colleague of his whose initials are JGr had again something to do with last night's 'design' of NN? I'm sure they did, in fact.
As personally I don't want to have anything to do with them, I don't watch Newsnight any more unless Jeremy is on.
Have a great day
mim
P.S. The bit I liked most in this item was the clip from Westminster Abbey with the Queen wearing a violet suit and Jeremy Iron reading Carol Duffy's poem 'Last Post' which I think is great.
Oh, perhaps one more thing about Jeremy. Like Alain de Botton he also has what I call the gift of the gab as well as a great sense of humour.
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"I walked up the steps from Embankment gardens to waterloo bridge about 10 minutes before Georgi Markhov (sp?) was stabbed by a ricin tipped umbrella."
really? how much of an exaggeration is that, 15 mins, 20 mins? - still n' all, quite a coincidence! P.S. I know Barrie's got some strange ideas about gender but do you have to encourage mim? I'm all for free speach but I spend ages trawling down past mim's posts to find a genuine comment worth reading.
26 - thanks, we don't often get facts on here!!
Mim- what does post 27 mean? what are you talking about? is JJ still posting? do you know him/her? why can't you let it rest? I've learned more from JJ than I've learned in years. For instance I saw the programme about the Weimar cabaret (which I adore, I can remember most of the lyrics for the film Cabaret from listening to the soundtrack when I was 15). Seeing that programme in light of having read JJs posts made a sense of the history more than it had before, Last night I watched 'Good Night and Good Luck' and now I am wondering what exactly McArthyism was really all about.
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#30 wappoho HHhhmmm seems JJ is still often right! ; ) When he talks of the feminised society! Who else would write all their personal experiences on a news blog! ; ) Yes and JJ made me think as well, and I hope I'm a little wiser, as Barrie points out! ; )
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#30 Wappoho
'.......really? how much of an exaggeration is that, 15 mins, 20 mins? - still n' all, quite a coincidence!
OK. Got me there. Can't absolutely prove it because the facts of the case were not known at the time and there were no flashing blues and twos. So, it's a sort of guess based on my regular weekday practice between Jan 1978 to May 1980 of alighting the 7:36 from Wembley Central at Embankment at 8:12 walking through Embankment Gardens and up the steps to my office in Brettenham House, Lancaster Place by 8:28 usually.
I know the train may have been late on some occasions. I know I did not have a day off sick in that time and never had holiday in September, especially NOT that one.
THAT day does stick in my mind very clearly for other reasons. At 12:05 I received the phone call I had been dreading but expecting, that my father had died of cancer. Same day as Keith Moon died, whose family lived near us. So you see it kind of sticks in the mind.
‘..... P.S. I know Barrie's got some strange ideas about gender but do you have to encourage mim? I'm all for free speach but I spend ages trawling down past mim's posts to find a genuine comment worth reading.'
Frustrating perhaps but don't be so quick to dismiss the intelligence, sharp observations and golden nuggets of wisdom, you may find behind a thin veneer of paranoia or whatever.
Just like you found something, much perhaps, in some comments from JJ - I've never had that pleasure – I fin to keep an open mind and certainly a little tolerance doesn’t hurt too much. I find those who consider themselves 'better' and use cunning wiles and bully boy tactics to pray on the weak and vulnerable to be among the most despicable of human beings.
Keep trawling. It could be worth it.
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mimpromptu #27/28
You are off topic AGAIN. Nobody wants to know your personal details and it is tiresome having to trawl through all your irrelevancies to get to anything of note.
I would like to read the moderator's comments on why it is that some might get banned for being 'off topic', when they plainly are making interesting connections, while others whose paranoid ramblings litter this blog are allowed to continue.
Newsnight itself has already suffered dumbing down and now the blog is also being m ade safe it seems.
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Ecolizzy #31
‘....Who else would write all their personal experiences on a news blog! ; )’
The same kind of people who post on news blogs (basically a thinly disguised message board) and a small step up from facebook) who use it to put their own rants and personal opinions on life out there in the either. The same standard and human failing of self importance apply. Welcome to the club.
In a civilised society (which can only be sustained by civilised people) the rich, the fit, the strong support the poor the sick and the weak and a cycle of interconnectivity and interdependence actually does work for the benefit of all.
Every time you folks comment on comments you find irrelevant, you are merely adding to the dilution of the ‘facts’ and deeply negative, vicious seldom helpful
As for jj (or anyone for that matter) being RIGHT. In my experience, RIGHT does not always equal GOOD!
But amen to anything that opens up debate and challenges our own little world and beliefs. That's why I read and contribute to this blog. Becuase there all sorts of people with all sorts of interesting? thoughts and beliefs.
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WILL THE CIRCLE BE UNBROKEN...... BY AND BY (WHO GET’S YOUR VOTE)
So, there is a suggestion to cut tax relief from a benefit. And it has professional women (labour politicians) up in arms. It’s NOT the benefit being cut or means tested. Just the Tax relief (the thin end of the wedge). So that extra money can be targeted to those MOST in need. Rather than a blanket benefit
Currently all tax payers are supporting the choice of individuals to have a family, work, have full time professional/educational child care......
We are told time and again how much the economy needs more children to feed into the workplace to support our growing need of benefits for young and old. And if we need those children, they need to be supported and educated (by paid professionals rather than their parents) so all parents need to be dragged into the workforce earlier and earlier, which feeds the need for nurseries and child care.............. etc etc etc. It’s a vicious circle.
Of course some are in real need who have to work, but they should be the very ones to get MORE direct support. I find it a perplexing conundrum, to comprehend the manner of STUFF the average member of the GBP assumes it is their right to have.
Good child care can be MUM. Or Dad. Or family.
Holidays, cinema, trainers, computer games, are NOT necessarily good child care.
Let’s get some perspective.
And Caroline Flint did her cause and her party no end of harm with her blatant observation that policy decisions are about votes before need.
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ecolizzy #31
I've known JJ for about 25 years now and have watched and listened as theories were formed and then proved. I have never known JJ utter a single statement that can be disproved. I have instead had many a 'belief' turned on its head and always by having empirical evidence presented. I learnt to distrust what I (and others) think and instead take the trouble to find out the facts. I don't always like what I find but one must accept the truth when it is laid out for all to see. The constant refusal by people in general to accept these unpalatable truths about themselves is, I suggest, a good part of the reason for the mess we now find ourselves in. I for one remain grateful to JJ for helping remove the scales from my eyes. I count myself as lucky to number JJ amongst my friends.
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Regarding last nights programme and also a lot of the previous ones when Kirsty Wark is interviewing.
Could someone please let her know that her interviewing technique could do with a brush up from a skill perspective. She continually breaks in on a person giving an answer and asks a question of someone else before they have finsihed talking which is incredibly rude, and on top of that usually lets all the interviewees end up talking at once till no one can understand what is being said.
Lets have more Paxo and less Wark please.
Rene.
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brightyangthing #34
"Becuase there all sorts of people with all sorts of interesting? thoughts and beliefs."
Thoughts and beliefs count for nothing. Truth is all that matters. Even if you don't like it.
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THE ONLY ONE IN STEP (#various)
I have written before of a book (out of print) entitled: 'Going Mad to Stay Sane'. My crude summation of its wisdom (there's that word again) is that we all adopt a madness in which we are 'comfortable' (least uncomfortable). Those whose madness is akin to ours, we deem sane.
I have a vague recollection that the Transactional Analysis crowd refer to a nominal Martian who views all our madnesses with equanimity. I think he is currently having a ball reading our posts on the NN blog/forum!
It is to be hoped that - all unknown to us - his chums are watching this planet, and making their plans . . . Please excuse my rush - I go to prepare a landing strip. La la la.
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I cannot believe the way the media have just accepted QE , if it was this easy why does every economy in the world not just print a load of money whenever there's trouble? Its because there are consequences.
What they're doing is fuelling another massive asset price bubble with QE and 0.5% interest rates. It is obvious nothing has been learned from the disaster low rates / massive house prices caused.
So we're going to be left with artificially low borrowing costs (what happened to the end of cheap money?) and artificially high house prices, and society remains divided down the middle depending on whether they bought a house or not and people who want to by a house will have to borrow heavily, brilliant solution.
Another massive kick in the teeth for people who are sensible with their money.
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#36 NF2 I wasn't in anyway decrying JJ, I'm surprised at how he's made me look at things, in such a short time. In fact I've realised that just thinking something is so, is not right. I read somewhere that people make stories up in their own minds that is how life is, and then live up to them. But through JJs actual fact attitude, I've realised how wrong one can be! He has a very good grasp of natural law, as opposed to the politically correct one! ; )
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#41 Ecolizzy
Do you want to start a blog discussion on natural law?
With the release of the film 2012, will NNR tomorrow (or the day after) discuss the film.
How does natural law relate to the self determining future of human society, rather than a destruction from outside eg radiative emissions from the sun?
Celtic Lion
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AH - WELL - YES - BUT (#41)
I followed many JJ links - and JJ reasoning - and learned a lot; but I was not prepared to FOLLOW JJ, the person, as my guide in life.
Were I sane/rational/competent, I might be able to 'Do the JJ' (a dance where the steps are so precise, the relationship between one's start and finish points are predictable, to a nano-whisker) all would be fine. But in my deranged state (human for short) I am soothed by 'thinking' this, and 'feeling' that. Indeed, I have worked all my life in science, and found many a breakthrough comes via a FEELING - only later supported by evidence. Was it Kekule who had the dream (while asleep) that led him to the ring structure of Benzene and 'aromatics' generally? What a plonker! (:o)
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#38 NF2
I want to come back on that issue, because I find the relationship between TRUTHS???, FACTS ??? IDEAS and BELIEFS fascinating. And I suspect that I share, in a form that I can still only call 'ideas or beliefs' many of the 'unpalatable' but 'indisputable’ TRUTHS that some of you expound.
I admit I have not read much of JJ’s posts or many of yours and others.
Some of the problems faced must involve the nature of the limited selective audience and the manner of delivery as seen on this blog.
Someone mentioned NN being dumbed down. And the fact may be that some people may watch because they fancy Emily or Gavin or Jeremy, or Kirsty or whoever. Surely, to get the populace to understand unpalatable truths, they MUST be dumbed down, or else a way found to prevent TRUTH getting to the populace at all. BIG BIG BIG questions.
I’ve not too much spare time to undertake the specialist study required to understand the back ground to JJ’s posts (who is JJ? Some of you are in contact – meet?)
Maybe that’s a wrong priority. But right now I need to hone my skills/intellectual understanding and knowledge slowly and on a wide range of topics, and with a broad spectrum of individuals. And that WILL undoubtedly include connecting with those on the fringes, those who have widely opposing views and sometimes mere frivolous but harmless??? ‘it makes the world go round’ chit chat.
No apologies.
Right now I have to work, but hope to come back on this later.
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Brossen99#23 Good points Brossen, why is it we are lagging behind as a Nation? Well its a rhetorical question of course....Incidentally the CO2 argument is not watertight by any means and we know why so many have gone down this carbon credit road... Copenhagen needs to be open to all arguments ,....well if only
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#34
Brightyangthing
You're right about people like newfazermk2, wappaho and ecolizzy. They camouflage their own messages while my choice is to be frank about what I really feel and do, especially that there is obviously quite a big disparity between my position and that of Jeremy's, especially on the financial level. So, rather than being accused of secretly scheming to become friends with him, which has always been the absolute priority rather than having an affair or whatever, I speak about things openly, taking into consideration the fact that he has children as well as siblings in important posts. A lot of people know that I like him anyway so what's the point of hiding the fact? As he hasn't told me in the face to get lost, I intend to carry on talking about him every now and then but people should remember that I do have my own opinions and ways of doing things which I often talk about and which have nothing to do with Jeremy or my attempts at communicating with him.
But being a woman with ideas of her own in this country ain't easy, is it?
I share your views about living in a civilised society, quote: (which can only be sustained by civilised people) the rich, the fit, the strong support the poor the sick and the weak and a cycle of interconnectivity and interdependence actually does work for the benefit of all.
I am in a more privileged position than a homless person, for example, and feel that those I have met and liked deserve a bit of help from me, especially now when I am permitted, however financially constrained, to do my ice skating and dittying.
mim
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ONE OF MANY (#44)
Hi BYT. A personal view (tainted by innate negativity):
I regard HomSap as the 'Ape Confused by Language' - an unstable mutation.
HomSap defaults to immaturity + cleverness. Constraint required (taboos).
Robert Ardrey called us 'The Bad Weather Animal' (evolved to struggle against the odds).
The weather changed. All the components are in place for self destruction.
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38 I have to disagree with you there - what matters to most people and indeed to life as lived, is social reality and not truth.
Social reality is constructed and may be constructed to incorporate or repress truths depending on the prevailing consensus. Currently the dominant social reality is underpinned by postmodern philosophy which is seemingly a license to ignore facts.
Truth only matters for two reasons - some people, like me and you, prefer truths to social realities and so we go digging, and as you point out the only trowel is empirical evidence; and secondly truth matters because truths do tend to emerge sometimes, despite obfuscation, and so sometimes we have to confront truths whether we want to or not - as is the case with MPs expenses - in another time and dimension the whole sordid issue could have remained hidden indefinitely behind the constructed social reality.
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brightyangthing #44
Barrie is easy to find - and his website a delight for those who love words.
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Barrie #43
"Indeed, I have worked all my life in science, and found many a breakthrough comes via a FEELING"
Yup. That's when behaviour takes over. Just stop all that clumsy thinking (in words lest you become confused) and feel the force!
It's how you drive a car / ride a bike, it's how you play the piano, it's how you shoot a bow. It's been proven, the action begins before the thought.
PS.
I don't 'follow' JJ. Indeed I often drive JJ to exasperation with my frivolity and apparent inability to as saddened by the human condition as JJ is. I guess I think too much. ;-)
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wappaho #38
"38 I have to disagree with you there "
I wish more people disagreed with me like that!
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#44
Brightyangthing
In the past I used to watch Newsnight not only with Jeremy on but also other presenters as well as news at different times on different channels. But, although I realise I'll be accused of imagning things, I have consciously given up feeling that I was being used without due credit to my contribution. So, the problem is bigger than fancy.
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#48
Well said that man?
I'll scrap my far more rambling less succint commentary on a similar vein.
or maybe I won't. Ego will out!
THE IDYLLIC WORLD PEOPLED BY TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH.
I have never yet found ‘truths’ to be anything other than subjective to a degree. But I am still searching.
The day that pursuing TRUTH or STUFF or MY OWN ENDS becomes more important than people and their needs, however flimsy, self satisfying, self inflicted, flawed those needs may be, will be the day I have either already left this world, or should do!
What we desire, or see as utopia is all well and good but if we live and breathe every waking hour striving to find it, or merely surviving in abject misery at its non appearance, then we may as well shuffle of this mortal coil. Because LIFE is about making out with what is REAL (unless I am in a matrix – not totally sure) and dealing with it best you can. If possible without costing the pain of others of the destruction of the world. There is much that is good and beautiful out there. Much of it buried deep within the flawed human spirit. (Or in Glenshee in a blizzard - see Monday! - Winks and nods and blind bats and all that).
Seek and ye shall find.
That is my belief (Perry Como sang that I think!)
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#48 wappaho
"I have to disagree with you there - what matters to most people and indeed to life as lived, is social reality and not truth.
Social reality is constructed and may be constructed to incorporate or repress truths depending on the prevailing consensus. Currently the dominant social reality is underpinned by postmodern philosophy which is seemingly a license to ignore facts."
Good points. There is truth and what society believes or tells us is true. It is this separation from a real reality and a social construct of reality which will be are downfall.
Truth or a social construct of truth both leave a track of ideas and a trajectory into the future. It is the divergence of path ways which causes many of our problems.
We live on a finite earth. Yet Governments told us to consume or borrow to consume more. Here we have a truth of finite constraints and an opposed social construct of truth -to want, to need to consume more.
When the divergence between to two got so great, when the tension of the stretched fabric of reality reached it's yield point. It snapped. Nothing to do with sub prime or credit crunch, or quantum loop derivatives or toxic assets the media, the politicians the economists tell us is the cause of the recession. These are just socially constructed symptoms of the fracture between truth and socially constructed false reality.
So they tell us to consume more. Madness in doing the same things and expecting a different result.
Next will be the snap back between the socially constructed reality of the consumerism and market only driven economic development and the true reality of what we need to do to sustainably manage the ecological life support systems of the planet.
When the fracture between those occur it will manifest just as quickly as the collapse of global markets on the morning of 21st January 2008.
But it will not be loss of imaginary money, but the loss of real lives which will manifest. Yet Governments and media still want us to believe in the false social construct of reality they peddle as truth. Despite the true reality that it will take us to our destruction and oblivion.
What I find is the problem with NN, the media, Government etc is they discuss what they believe to be truth, but in true reality is only within the bubble of their socially constructed reality. They discuss within a false datum of reference.
Celtic Lion
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GOING LIKE A TRAIN (#50)
"PS. I don't 'follow' JJ. Indeed I often drive JJ to exasperation with my frivolity and apparent inability to as saddened by the human condition as JJ is. I guess I think too much. ;-)"
Rushing (here) to say I had no intention at #43 to imply you are anything but a prime, prime-mover New Fazer! But I DO get the feeling JJ has 'Leadership Difficulties' - with implicit gain for followers? (:o)
This thread is on fire today. I had almost given up.
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#42 & 54 Roger, I think your post at 54 explains what natural law is. We humans think we can control everything, we are a very selfish part of life. We are out for our own best interests, even as an individual, how many people honestly are only doing something for others, without some benefit to themselves, even if it's just a feel good factor. And it will become survival of the fittest, which when you think about it, is exactly what has happened already. Animals that have this attitude have survived, the weaker ones were long ago killed off, so are we any different.
I think it's about time we all took a giant leap backwards, and perhaps your predictions are right. Perhaps millions will die, but the earth will continue, why is man the most important life form, we can easily be killed off. i.e. no sun, no water, no food, it would happen rapidly.
Oliver James has pointed out that most depressed people live in western cultures, because we never think we have enough objects, or holidays. So perhaps peoples in simpler cultures are much happier than us who must "have".
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#36 newfazermk2
"I've known JJ for about 25 years now and have watched and listened as theories were formed and then proved. I have never known JJ utter a single statement that can be disproved."
Hence Nuremburg has been refuted the Final Solution papers and Nazi have been shown to be false and the allies combined to invent the Holocaust to "put people off statism"? No! The Holocaust happened and you usually resort to it being "overstated".
Jaded_Jean provides "statistics" to show too many Jews survived the war yet is not an expert witness and would not submit these wonders to a Nazi War crime trial or Holocuast Denier trial.
There is no science that survives scrutiny on the race "realism" and eugenics front as popularly shown in the Rageh Omar "Race and Intelligence".
Hitler is not widely regarded as a "peace lover" who did not want war by most credible historians.
In fact there is little that Jaded_Jean has ever said that is credible.
For example I recall that poster once claiming not to be a Nazi - but endorsing National Socialism.
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#50 newfazermk2
"I don't 'follow' JJ. Indeed I often drive JJ to exasperation with my frivolity and apparent inability to as saddened by the human condition as JJ is. I guess I think too much."
Well given your National Socialist leanings as shown in your support of Jaded_Jean and your grandfather being in the RAF whilst you feel the Holocaust "is overstated" I had you pegged as Nick Griffin of the BNP.
But I can't see somebody who thinks too much being Nick Griffin and his sense of humour tends to talk of Nuremburg and generals and hanging.
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#54 roger thomas
"What I find is the problem with NN, the media, Government etc is they discuss what they believe to be truth, but in true reality is only within the bubble of their socially constructed reality. They discuss within a false datum of reference."
Only Roger Thomas knows objective reality?
All of those other scientists and economists who advise the government and the media are too weak willed to resist these false truths?
They know your great truths and Al Gore gets a Nobel and a million or so to add to his already great wealth instead of you?
But wait if they understood your great truths were great truths they could not be living in a bubble divorced from reality.
Oh cruel and simple common sense!
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Have tried several times to quit the NN blog, but today's posts indicate why it is so addictive - such a great mix of trivia, and some hostility, but containing gems that make it worth the daily browsing.
I also found most of jj's blogs and links informative, saving many hours of browsing and googling. (cue for Gof1 to dispute + garnish)
However, I agree with some of the above comments that the pursuit of truth is not the only or main purpose of life for many of us. In this respect, I take on board jj's facts about IQ and TFIs, then choose to ignore them in my own lifestyle choice - the pursuit of happiness - which many may regard as hedonism. Whereas I was 'dragged-up' in street-wise Deptford, my spouse is the product of a remote village 'education' so I find her take on events refreshing, plus she is a carer, by upbringing not training.
Barrie and I differ on many things, but I hold him to be the undisputed sage and poet laureate of this blog, which reminds me that my favourite WWI poem was 'Naming of the Parts' which brings back the humourous side of National Service when we were tasked with re-assembling the Bren gun and naming all (80?) parts, such as the flash eliminating tube assembly and the rear sear retaining sprocket.
I expect Gordo's speech on Immigration (full of 'new initiatives' too little and too late)and his first on this key issue for years, will be a NN item today, so I look forward to giving you all the benefit of my comments, and perhaps being influenced by others.
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#33 newfazermk2
[to mimpromptu]
"
I would like to read the moderator's comments on why it is that some might get banned for being 'off topic', when they plainly are making interesting connections, while others whose paranoid ramblings litter this blog are allowed to continue.
Newsnight itself has already suffered dumbing down and now the blog is also being m ade safe it seems."
Yet you and your pal jaded_jean used to pollute this page with ramblings about the Holocaust being made up, the delusion of Jewish international conspiracy, Hitler being a peace lover and so on.
Given the BNP are allegedly NOT a National Socialist party how can any of these ludicrous lies and demonstrations of intellectual incompetence be pertinent to modern democracy as there is nobody who would take such views seriously?
Yet the National Socialists would swap democratic free speech for a fuhrer-state on the Hitler model and would endorse the racial policies of that era.
Even if you could stomach the amorality of that ideology/cult the science is long since refuted.
It would seem that racial purity tends to increase "inbreeding" problems and hence the British gene pool has been strengthened by immigration.
There is no significant difference between the races but people don't want uncontrolled and unreasoned immigration that has not been planned and resourced properly.
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Go1 - there are Al Gore-ithms and then there are algorithms :)
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Burst Bubbles
We've seen these happenings throughout history; the South Sea, the Tulip, the Dotcom and most recently, the Credit.
No amount of regulation, real or pretend, will stop bubbles, because it is in the inherent nature of capitalism to grow, grow, grow until the "bubble" bursts; why? Because the consequences of burst bubbles do not affect the bubble blowers, the true capitalists, but rather the munchkin capitalists, those who float upwards carried by the bubble, the true parasites.
Those with nothing, the poor, as always, get repeatedly splattered by the debris.
So talk of a recovery, a return to normal is so deceitful; it conjures a world of balanced economies, fairness and comfort.
Take a look at quantitative easing; it's the start of another bubble; this time round it might take longer to burst, given the "fragile" nature of the recovery.
Il faut cultiver notre jardin.
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Time for a poem:
Kirsty wursty wursty woo
I think I'm madly in love with you.
that took me all week that.
There is an assumption that there will be a recovery; well be back to normal in a few years time... I think not.
India buys a fat load of gold - 200 tonnes i think. What does that tell you? Financial analysts/historians are warning us that we are in denial of the dangers ahead, I think there right. Plus the dollar is looking like its heading for the bin. You can get yourself a mortgage, long as you have 30% deposit...and thats classed as a good deal. So thats going to be the end of individuals using their houses as investments. No! things ain't ever going to be the same again.
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#41 ecolizzy
"I read somewhere that people make stories up in their own minds that is how life is, and then live up to them. But through JJs actual fact attitude, I've realised how wrong one can be!"
So to recap you are not the BNP at all but you have visited the site as you felt I was calling you a fascist.
You don't like to visit London due to the racial mix.
Now through listening to jaded_Jean whose "fact attitude" endorse the National Socialist policies of Hitler, states the Holocaust was made up to put people off "statism", believes in a Jewish International Conspiracy and of course race "realism" and eugenics your eyes have been opened.
So you are just a typical and well balanced voter who has managed to glean these great truths and you can see the kind of facts that would substantiate them.
If the Holocaust hadn't happened and Jaded_jeans "statistical" evidence that too many Jews survived were true (there was no reliable census data) then these facts could overturn Nuremburg and rehabilitate Hitler and the Nazi war criminals.
That has never happened so why not?
Newfazer/Newfazermk2 said some time back:
'I have never claimed a mountain of evidence against the holocaust, I simply say I can find very little for it. It seems neither can you or you would present it. Newfazer Fri 27th March'
So Jaded_jean would not take the "statistical evidence" to say the Djemjanuk trial because jaded_jean is not an expert witness and the defence I presume could not find an expert witness who could use these statistics or endorse them. Newfazer clearly does not believe either the statistics or jaded_jean.
My own "fact attitude" is that Nuremburg is evidence as the trials used a variety of sources and have not been overturned.
If there is a Jewish hegemony as claimed then you are being discriminated against so why again has no court case been launched?
The kind of lies the BNP tend to concoct are not based on a fact attitude. Richard Barnbrook was pulled up by his local council for bringing the council into disrepute for relating to murders that never happened. He claimed he had not lied but had been partially influenced by dyslexia and church bells.
Its the sheer sophistication of the BNP "fact attitude" that impresses - or conversely makes you laugh.
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A 'THANK YOU' OFFERING FOR INDIGNANTINDIGENE (#60)
FUNNY TURN
(Crudity’s Come Uppance.)
Today - in 2007 - we have naming of parts.
Yesterday we had “talking dirty” and innuendo.
Tomorrow all shock-value might be departed
But today we have naming of parts.
Rhodochiton Volubile dangles flagrantly flaccid
And today we have naming of parts.
The lower part is known by the d-word or w-word
Which in the ladies’ case – they have not got;
It is functionally connexive with the c-word
Giving rise to the highly facilitating f-word.
The Purple Rock Vine seeks rampant exposure
A freedom which, as males, we have not got.
Another w-word is produced without tongue-flexion
While the alternative f-word is technically allied;
The finger favourable and the thumb opposed.
But these are functions rather than parts.
The blossoms hang innocently condemned
Having raised only eyebrows.
The Chaucerian q-word is not employed
And the other q-word, while redolent of parts and
Approximation to fruitful juxtaposition, denies pollination.
This prominent member of family: Scrophulariaceae is, in short,
“BMW” - which most of us have not got.
The shortening is manifestly unseasonal.
It is summary high noon, for naming of parts
Just one remains, entrancingly flowered.
Après the c-word will come a d-word;
For crudity, le Deluge; a torrent of silence.
The Black Man’s Willy will succumb to Fall
But, for today – we have naming of parts.
25.10.07
In full acknowledgement of Henry Reed.
PRONUNCIATION GUIDE
roh-doh-KY-ton
skrof-yoo-larr-ee-AY-see
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OBJECTIVE REALITY!
The first paid job I had was sweeping the floor in a licensed grocers run by two brothers.
One Friday night I listened enthralled as the two of them held a running argument, whilst serving customers, about the significance of the exclamation mark in the film title, "Sink the Bismarck!".
One maintained that the punctuation indicated the urgency of the command issued, whilst the other argued the rhetorical view of the impossibility of the notion.
Regarding objective reality, I feel the rhetorical view holds sway, although the Bismarck was indeed sunk.
Howzabout situational objective reality?
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OK - YOU START KASH (#67)
QUESTION: What is 'The Universe'?
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On this week’s Politics Pen, I was a little disappointed to see that one viewer’s suggestion of imposing a one off tax on bankers’ bonuses at 90% was turned down by the judges. Lord Digby Jones was only half right - bonus payments for this year have not been canceled at these banks but merely delayed for a few years (presumably until the economy picks up). Since it is bad policy to introduce retrospective taxing, why not introduce the new tax rule now, so as to ensure any cash bonuses to be postponed by the banks in this manner will be properly taxed when they come into force at a future date?
On the argument that some banks didn’t need bailing out by the taxpayers, and so taxing bonuses wouldn’t be fair on them -
Had we allowed Northern Rock and the other banks to fail, who is to say for sure that its knock-on effects wouldn’t have thrown all the other solvent banks out of balance? At the height of the credit crunch, inter-bank lending completely froze up; what were the bank executives at HSBC and Barclays supposed to do about financing if it weren’t for government interventions? The repeated capital injections into the financial system and the treasury backed loan guarantee schemes instigated by the government, both of which the surviving banks have been benefiting hugely from - how is that so different from a direct bailout?
p.s.
A little advice to Kirsty Wark - keep your questions short and interrogate according to what your panelists are saying (not the other way round). You can do it! ^^
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#53
Brightyangthing
In my books you are spot on with your "I have never yet found ‘truths’ to be anything other than subjective to a degree. But I am still searching."
When I talk about looking for truth, I refer to specific people and events that have led me to the situation that I have found myself in.
But when, in a more universally geared mind, I quote in my extended essay on relativity of perception Alexander Herzen's statement 'I have no system, no interest except the truth, and I express it as it appears to me', it's precisely what you're talking about, really, isn't it?
Relativity of perception! My truth is not exactly your truth when we speak of our perception, let's say, Jeremy's views on Royalty. And he admits, in fact, that when he started the book he considered himself as a republican but having analysed not only the British but also a few other European constitutional monarchies he changed his mind and openly admitted to the change of his views.
He expressed his views on Royalty as it appeared to him at a given time. The Queen, Prince Phillip and Prince Charles probably knew about his republicanism and yet they let him follow them and gave him open access to the events they played a part in with Prince Charles and Princess Diana inviting him to visit them in their respective homes. By doing so they were respectful of the democratic process and yet obviously trusted him as a person, whatever his views were at the time.
It's a great book, his book on Royalty, and is probably the easiest and most entertaining one to read among his works! Is it the one that's on your Christmas wish list, Brightyangthing?
mim
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I don't understand why we assume so much, especially with regard to the utterances of politicians.
I would like someone, probably Paxman's the only one, to ask Rammell, Ainsworth, even Gordi or Lord Snooty what they mean when they say that defeating the Taliban keeps our streets safe; by defeating the Taliban, do they mean paying them off or killing them all or making them disappear into the hills till the spring?
The situational objective reality is that they do not know what they mean when they say these things; they are merely buying time until the US decides what it wants to do and then they'll have a new script to read from.
So enough with the Afghan debates already; let's concentrate on how we build some kind of decent future for the young people, almost a million now, with no gainful employment; for the older people, increasingly fearful of a low quality of life; and for those millions who need to be persuaded that having a mortgage, easy credit and holidays twice a year in Florida are really not the benchmarks of a successful, meaningful or -dare I say it - happy life.
Last time such a debate took place was post WW2; might be three years yet before we enter a post Afghan War era, which will be too late.
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#67 kashibeyaz
OBJECTIVE REALITY?
Having considered the argument presented. We only understand or try to explain reality by the models we construct to represent reality. These models evolve as more accurate representation is required.
Our language and words we use to convey thought are only representational models of the original thought.
Whether it is a socially accepted explanation of the universe. Carried on a turtles back, suspended on crystal domes, a Newtonian mechanisation or a construction of collected evolving consciousness. Models are transitory and evolve with the breaking down and moving on from one paradigm to the next.
'Sink the Bismark' could be one such example, where conventional models or paradigms of punctuation may me insufficient to convey the nuance of meaning required.
"the rhetorical view of the impossibility of the notion" in my assessment carries two criteria to be emphasised by punctuation. The exclamation and the question.
Is it permissible to use Sink the Bismark!? or Sink the Bismark?!, and which order or punctuation takes priority. I would suggest the latter. As the rhetorical nature of the question takes priority of the implied 'impossibility' contained within it.
Or should the existing paradigm and model of punctuation need to be further refined to accommodate such new requirements of expressed meaning, and a new punctuation character need to be created.
One which is more representational of rhetorical exclamation.
Celtic Lion
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# 63 Kashibeyez
‘ .... Burst Bubbles
We've seen these happenings throughout history; the South Sea, the Tulip, the Dotcom and most recently, the Credit.’
We’ve also seen great civilisations rise meteorically, increase the perceived Wisdom or TRUTH of mankind, become rich in art, science, and gold, then become greedy, desensitised and finally implode.
Where are we on that scale today?
#56 Ecolizzy
AN APPLE A DAY............
Much that you say resonates and sits comfortably if not happily within part of my perceived Truth. But whilst that may seem confusing, there is also, to me this dichotomy of the world, seen from a distance where all is beautiful and perfect and the life and life giving cycle and survival of the fittest, left to its own devices is the perfect ‘government’ of the planet.
But then there is mankind. Did the grand designer make that final fateful flaw due to fatigue, blind faith or merely as a game to keep it entertained through the millennia. Perhaps we are all merely players in the greatest computer game ever.
Grand Theft Planet of Humanity.
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Brightyangthing
I've just been overcome by unstoppable fits of laughter realising, I think, what you meant by using one of your terms describing me in some of your posts. But this one I'll just keep for myself, hoping that in the next few days I'll experience a few more fits of unstoppable laughters. They feel good, those!
Besides, what made me also laugh was David Dimbleby describing the accident on his farm in which he got himself involved in today. Quote: ""Trust my wife's bullock to take me out. I'll be giving bullocks a wide berth in future," he added." It looks like his doing fine now.
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#71
Kashibeyaz
Jeremy has already interviewed Lord Snooty a few times , with Lord Snooty appearing in the 'window' on Jeremy's left, but something tells me that Gordi might find it difficult to face him face to face. I fear there might be a strong likelihood of Gordi bursting out in tears during such an interview which would, of course, mean the end of the ends of his political career.
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#61
Gango
Well said!
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SINK THE BISMARK/.
The straight line as in the exclamation, but also tilted over to represent the question mark? But also implying the rising inflection of the rhetorical exclamation in pronunciation?
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#73
Brightyangthing
Yes, you are quite right about the Grand Theft Planet of Humanity! That's one of my current truths, the specific ones, that is, not the more universally geared ones.
mim
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#68; "The Universe", capitalised thus, is, if my memory serves me well, both a Roman Catholic periodical and the erstwhile name of a lounge bar situated in Scrogg Road, Newcastle upon Tyne, originally managed by one Billy Yorke, aka "Universal Billy" or more originally, "Yorkie".
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#4
Brightyangthing
Interesting that one:
http://www.dailypoem.co.uk/display.php?pid=150
and your thoughts below the link
mim
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#72; the argument developed much along the lines you illustrated, with the urgency option winning the day and the losing brother having to sweep the floor instead of me!/!?/?!.
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As I was getting a little bored with prosing around, I went into a rhythm and rhyme mood and here's what I've come up with:
Mood Swings of a Live Robot
They've created a robot that cycles around
The streets of London where all races abound
The poor thing is a subject of moods
That swing about while covering her routes
She cries then she laughs and then changes her mood
Back to her tears in between the food
She enjoys despite the clogs who think it's all them
Making her moods swing in return
Little they realise how foolish they are
Thinking it's them playing the part
In the live robot's swinging on stars
Those of the Moon/Sun providing the lights.
They even think it's them the Moon and the Sun
Oh, how foolish and shallow and what garbage they are!
They do not understand the difference between human and creep
With the author of this ditty that's not for them to keep.
mim
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#77; Roger that/.
Tonight Brown talks immigration. What's the problem with immigration?
The EU allows free movement of people, although UK is still semi detached from the Schengen Agreement; surely citizens of the British Commonwealth could be allowed free movement around the Commonwealth?
And people from other countries? Why not?
I've listened to the argument about over population; but the relevance only seems to be in London/South East; is this HMG pandering once again to the lowest common denominator aka the Sun?
People have been immigrating uncontrollably since before the Romans; our monarchy is Graeco-Teutonic, our oldest nobility Norman French and our much vaunted Parliament is Nordic in origins.
What is the problem/.
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brightyangthing #53
"I have never yet found ‘truths’ to be anything other than subjective to a degree. But I am still searching."
Truth by it's very nature cannot be subjective. That is a contradiction.
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Go1
I know you won't read this today (you get only about an hour on that machine I think don't you?) so I may post it again tomorrow pre 13:00.
You wouldn't be an incy bit anti-goyim would you?
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Go1
"Even if you could stomach the amorality of that ideology/cult the science is long since refuted."
Whilst on the subject of refutations it was James Watson who, in 2003 I believe, refuted the notion of 'variation within a race being greater than between races'.
You do make up a lot of tripe don't you? One last time, my grandfather was never in the RAF in WW2 so please stop saying he was. For that is a lie you are telling.
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SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST
Neo-Darwinism and social construct. First deal with Neo. Neo being the central character in The Matrix, which deals with the exploration and breaking down of false imposed social construct and reality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Matrix
Now Darwinism. If horses are trapped in a canyon without means of escape or left in an inhospitable area, both with meager amounts of food or water.
Those FITTEST and most adapted for survival will be the smallest, those requiring the least resources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falabella
Or those adapted for living in harsh conditions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shetland_pony
Or animals which live in the forest where small size allows easier movement and a reclusive nature.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy_Hippopotamus
Darwinian fittest is, fit for purpose related. The fittest not being the strongest, biggest, most aggressive.
Nature red in tooth and claw.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Memoriam_A.H.H.
Tennyson's consideration of the evolutionary theories of the time. But also taken up to justify competitive market capitalism.
A fundamental misunderstanding of Darwinian theory perpetrated to the present day in political and economic philosophy.
Fittest could be those who co-operate together for survival not compete.
Fittest for survival may not be the richest who consumer the resources of the planet for their own greed. In by doing contribute to their own extinction and to that of others.
I'm sure someone once said rich people can't get through the eye of a needle and it will be the meek who inherit the Earth.
Which brings us to another environmental critique of market capitalism. In Genesis 1:28 from the Old Testament it says (King James)
"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."
This is considered important in Judeo-Christian economic philosophy as the bible effectively gives humans carte blanch to do whatever they want with the planet, without any regard or consideration for any other living thing.
As opposed to pre christian Celtic and Anglo Saxon beliefs which saw people as part of the web and cycles of all life. Nature something to be revered, not subdued.
A similar philosophy with many non Christian belief constructs. American Indian, Aborigine, Buddhist, Jains etc etc.
From research it would be possible to consider the proposition we are living in a artificial social construct. At odds with are sustained existence on the planet, due to a number of minor misconceptions about an objective reality we need to understand in order to survive.
Celtic Lion
PS 40 months before the bubble of a false social construct bursts and takes the whole lot with it.
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#83 Yes Kashy I've come round to your way of thinking. I don't think we can stop people from travelling around the world.
Although I don't think there will be a good outcome for Britain. Currently 700 million people want to move country. 45 million want to come to the UK, if there were absolutely free movement they would be here right now.
Yes it would be good wouldn't it, we would immediately become a third world country instead of this slow, and money printing country decline we are in now. Once we are over the 100 million mark we can then see how we are all going to live. It will be a fight for food and water just for a start, we won't be able to import it quickly enough to feed everyone. And anyone in the southeast will be on immediate water rations. We will have to build millions of shanty towns just to accomodate all the new people, can't wait to sign up for the Schengen Agreement.
I suppose a lot of people that could afford it and were intelligent enough would immediatly leave, as they are doing by the hundreds of thousands every year. But hey, that's just the intelligent ones, us plebs left can slide down the hole that will be Britain.
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#77
Roger Thomas
That made me laugh rather healthily as well.
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As reported in the Independent:
'Mr Griffin and his fellow BNP MEP Andrew Brons will be part of an Alliance which set out a "manifesto" today declaring the "inalienable values of Christianity, natural law, peace and freedom in Europe" and demanding the creation of "a Europe of free, independent and equal nations in the framework of a confederation of sovereign nation states, refraining from taking decisions on matters properly taken by the states themselves."
The manifesto calls for "the effective protection of Europe against new threats, such as terrorism and religious, political, economic or financial imperialism."
It also calls for "a peaceful and humane settlement of immigration problems through, among other measures, international cooperation aiming at development and self-sufficiency of third world countries". '
So did they take the chance to condemn Hitler or acknowledge the Holocaust or to define their "nationalism" in relation to the National Socialism that those far right posters that pollute this page constantly enthuse?
No of course not.
A "peaceful and humane settlement of immigration problems" from the people who brought us the Holocaust and eugenics and left circa seventy five million dead and Germany divided as opposed to the "thousand year Reich".
These are historical and legal facts that the far right try to insinuate are false but never ever come up with these facts in a court where to lie is an offence.
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#87
Roger Thomas
Ah, but what happens if for instance a small and a big get together transforming themselves into the most solids of rocks known on this earth?
But then again, what is small and what is big? Are we talking of heights or of brains? Of brains or of hearts? Of sexual organs or souls? We could carry on like that endlessly, combining different varieties into overall weak or strong entities.
In human terms I do not believe in the survival of the fittest as the most fragile human being when loved and cherished and looked after, like for example, let's say a disabled child, can go on for a long time in terms not only of physical survival but also in terms of living a worthwhile life in their local community or even on a global scale. I can't think of any specific examples at the moment but I suppose Toulouse Lautrec could be considered as one of them.
mim
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#86 Newfazer
I do seem to recall your saying in previous exchanges with regard to loyalty that your grandfather was a tail gunner. Unfortunately I cannot find the archival link to the exchanges but if you now deny that I will acknowledge that - though neutrals can consider that you find the case for the Holocaust "overstated" and on the 27th March 2009 said
"The figures JJ quotes are totals for world Jewry (taken from the Jewish Library) in 1930 and again for the present day. Take teh first figure and fac tor in TFR and teh second figure is about right. The m,eaning being that it does not seem that 6 million went missing during the intervening years. How else do you explain these simple figures?"
As I have said repeatedly there were no reliable figures on which to base these figures Europe wide and Nuremburg still stands. Hasten to a war crimes trial with your figures such as Djemjanjuk.
James Watson did say some things about racial differences in the seventies I believe but then apologised on his return to the US as the Channel 4 Race and Intelligence (Rageh Omar) showed.
For instance reputable scientists like Jones and Flynn did not acknowledge that Watson had made any such valid scientific point though he may have continued to harbour such an opinion in private - without the science.
The views of genetic racial similarity are to my knowledge only substantiated by the global genetic analysis of human origins that lay behind the "Incredible Human Journey" and we know that is because we are all descended from a very few individuals and nature has not had the time or need to branch genetically.
I do so hope that helps your inadequate mind.
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I have been unable to keep up with this afternoons missives - fascinating - but hope to do so later. Work calls me away.
Briefly
NF2 #84
That's why the word ‘truth’ was in inverted commas. To indicate my use of the term in its loosest, perceptive rather than factual representation.
Mim
Will get back to you on war poets and other later or tomorrow more likely. Perhaps best on this Wednesday thread to leave tonight's news to more on-topic stuff.
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#60 indignantindegene
"I also found most of jj's blogs and links informative, saving many hours of browsing and googling. (cue for Gof1 to dispute + garnish)"
You would seem to be saying that you agree with National Socialism, Hitler and that the Holocaust was "made up to put people off statism" as proposed by Jaded_jean.
If you can swallow that as "information" then that is your problem.
Given you are also not a democrat then and the BNP have a web site that they claim "gets more hits than all of the other parties put together" then they will surely win the next general election.
So why pollute this page - you people just march on the BBC circa May next year?
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#83 TWO WHITES DON'T MAKE A WONG
My response assumes that your post is in jest - or to provoke?
"What's the problem with immigration? The EU allows free movement of people... surely citizens of the British Commonwealth could be allowed free movement around the Commonwealth? And people from other countries? Why not?"
It is obviously a bloody good thing - if you are an immigrant.
But, if you were an Englishman, even one being around at the time of the Romans, a massive intake of foreign cultures, beliefs and values would hardly be well regarded.
Many citizens of other EU countries are equally furious about the lax decisions taken by their governments - except those who have personnaly benefitted.
As for free movement of Commonwealth citizens, UK suffers from this perpetual burden, which no longer provides any common wealth. I say this having brought friends from two such 'independant' countries into UK on nominal visas-on-arrival basis, yet I was not allowed entry to their countries to implement UK aid-funded projects without very stringent contracts and controls.
"I've listened to the argument about over population; but the relevance only seems to be in London/South East; is this HMG pandering once again to the lowest common denominator aka the Sun?" No, it's HMG pandering to GROWTH is good - for power and greed - and a slap in the eye for the Tories, according to a recent disclosure.
"People have been immigrating uncontrollably since before the Romans; our monarchy is Graeco-Teutonic, our oldest nobility Norman French and our much vaunted Parliament is Nordic in origins. What is the problem."
And doing these and many other things before the advent of mass media and the enlightenment of the masses. We now have a voice, but it is being massively diluted and distorted by the size of this tidal wave. Gordo's speech was his usual list of proposals, after 12 years in power, and recognising that this will be an election issue. So the message is: praise the contribution of the millions of immigrants and placate the doubters with more proposals, and Labour might yet get enough votes.
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#88; a tad hysterical/.
45 million people want to come to UK? Why? According to whom?
The non-signing of the Schengen Agreement is keeping these millions out??
This kind of hysteria conveniently avoids answering the question - why are people so opposed to immigration?
Because they're frightened - of what?
Last week on Questiontime someone said their mum or gran was frightened by the way the culture in the street she lived was changing so rapidly and this seemed to be a reason for limits on immigration. The original statement wasn't fully explored but I guess it had something to do with colour rather than Mozart versus Stockhausen.
Pandering to populist fears, rather than clear actions to dispel such fears is what successive governments' policies amount to and one wonders why they take this approach? To keep in with Rupert the Great?
No point now, his rags will bleat on against present HMG - So why not be bold and come clean about immigration?
It's OK.
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What a shame some people have to resort to name calling in order to get their points across (or NOT as the case may be). I would much rather trawl through frivolous personal or off topic pleasantries in my search for the truth.
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68
20% of 66?
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#82;
There exists here a poster called mim,
Who is not especially prim,
Her rhythms and rhymes,
Are bleak signs of the times,
Or could they be just rather grim/.
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BYT Perhaps we are all merely players in the greatest computer game ever.
I guess so. Mathematical formulae underpin music and aesthetics and now it seems consiousness itself may one day be reduced to a formula. Action precedes thought, so not much for us chickens to do really - holiday in Florida sounds OK to me! (I'll get my Spanish phrasebook)
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Go1 make up your own mind, don't be fooled by others. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6907681.ece
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The more you watch it, the more "The Thick of it" explains so much that happens regarding news.
Watch it and you'll soon be confused between it and BBC Parliament.
The latest Flint moment re childcare vouchers is, I'm sure, some kind of spoiler for the next series.
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Go1 #92
You can't get anything right can you? You don't pay attention to fact, something painfully obvious in all your postings. For the record (again) it was my maternal uncle who was a tail gunner on board a Wellington. Has that at last sunk in to your wholly inadequate mind? My wife's father flew Typhoons from West Malling. Can you manage two things at once?
If you 'choose' to believe that figures held by the Jewish Library to be incorrect then that is your foolishness and none can help you. Similarly if you put the opinions of a television journalist ahead of he life work of the foremost authority in genetics, a Nobel laureate, that further illustrates your foolishness. Or do you deny the existence of he DNA chain as well?
You repeatedly say many things which are false. Repetition does not bestow truth.
You can come here as often as you like to tell your lies and untruths - it makes not one jot of difference. You remain a fool.
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85 gentilophobic?
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86 My father was a doctor for the prisoners in Nuremberg.
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A VOICE FROM THE GUTTER (#83)
"our monarchy is Graeco-Teutonic, our oldest nobility Norman French and our much vaunted Parliament is Nordic in origins.
What is the problem/."
They have all the land, power and money. (:o)
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wappaho #104
Would you expand on that please?
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#95; "but if you were an Englishman, even one being around at the time of the Romans, a massive intake of foreign cultures, beliefs and values would hardly be well regarded."
I don't think there were any Englishmen at that time; tribal Britons more likely; plus ca change....
The Romans were conquerors, their military might initially subduing resistance , then the threat of same leading to negotiated settlements.
I see no reason why free movement around the Commonwealth should be prohibited because some countries like Australia impose points based systems; for citizens of fellow Commonwealth countries this should not apply.
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#107
Fat finger syndrome again. Should have been #105. 104 needed no explanation it was very funny!
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#93
Understood.
#97
If you refer to me as calling names, i.e. mentioning my thing about Jeremy as well as talking to Sir Malcolm Rifkind's office about JJ, i.e. David Budgen, Julian Graffy and David Mellor, I am afraid I feel I have no longer any other choice but be as frank about things as possible. I prefer naked truth, however difficult to swallow, than playing silly games of hide and seek.
Since realising the extent of the 'game', I played along with it for a while only because of safety concerns I've had. Not with regard to my own health or even existence but that of others. But I feel it is no longer possible especially since the death of the homeless Tim and the circumstances surrounding it. Now, I'm not in the least concerned about any female/male relationships that may or may not be going on with regard to the people I have been mentioning on these pages. To be frank, it's really none of my business.
And anyway, when I was about 24 I 'trained' myself not to rely on male/female love, for some reason considering it as not part of my destiny. Since then I did get married, which wasn't the easiest of marriages in any sense, and thought I had fallen in 'love' a few times since then but I do still carry in me the rock solid commitment of not relying on any of that.
Anything really positive happening to me in this area I treat as a wonderful and fantastic bonus but am prepared, as before, to carry on on my own and object to any male thinking that they can force me to change my mind on that. To be honest, I'd rather die than have a relationship with any man who has infringed on my personal freedom and trampled over my basic human rights.
mim
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ENGLISH SPOKEN BUT NOT AS WE KNOW IT JIM.
Politicians have a convenient belief that immigrants from ex-colonies, where we imposed our tongue as their first language, imported as cheap labour, de facto, SPEAK ENGLISH. Being fools and knaves, they either do not know, or do not wish to know, that empathic CARING requires COMMUNICATION above all else, with intuition (a cultural skill) a close second.
As our population gets older and medicine (coupled with law that insists we rot slowly) keeps us alive longer, COMMERCIAL CARE is staffed by a high proportion of MANGLISH SPEAKERS.
To those above extolling immigration and lovable Manglish speakers, I offer the opportunity to come and sit with me, in my brother's Care Home room. He will not walk another mile, but you can lie an hour in his bed - metaphorically. Forget the streets of London (where Manglish is now the lingua franca I'm told) I WILL SHOW YOU SOMETHING TO HELP YOU CHANGE YOUR MIND.
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Ha! Fat Finger! You got me going there!
It's seriously interesting though isn't it? He was just a general medic for any problems but I think there were a number of suicide attempts and he said there was a special ward for the Nazi officers who cracked up.
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What's the Problem with Immigration/.
The British Isles has throughout history been subject to immigration. Most have been assimilated by a dilution effect. Influence can be seen by study of the origin of place names on maps. Norse, Norman, Germanic, Gaelic.
One of the first least things learnt in science, for safety, is how to dilute concentrated sulphuric acid. If water is dripped in to the acid, the reaction can be explosive splashing the acid everywhere.
The technique is to drip the acid slowly into the water. Until the required concentration is required. A sudden large influx of acid causing an undesirable reaction.
Britain has had influxes. Vikings for example. But they tended to stay on coastal regions first not mixing with the inland populations. Assimilation being relatively slow.
We have the exception that proves the rule. The Romans, so adverse was the reaction it had to be a military conquest. Adverse reaction initially between the Romans and some of the native tribes. Though prior to the main invasion Rome had traded with some of the tribes and regions.
The problem with immigration may be not that it occurs but more related to diffusion and assimilation of cultures. Barrie points out the language situation. Historically 'invaders' to Britain once they settled spoke the original language of the area, but added to it with their own. A process not of years, but of decades and centuries. Hence the varied origins of British place names.
Immigration, is it a result of Government positively attracting people here or is it a result of people wanting to come here for a better life.
Should we not be seeing the latter as a problem with world as a whole. Should we not be contributing in an effective way to make the world a better place. So people prefer to stay where they are, rather than migrate to the UK for that better life.
If we don't start making the world a better place for all life, human, animal and plant, the problem will only get worse.
If climate changes for what ever reason, our temperate islands my be the only habitable place for 1000's of miles. Africa and southern Europe may become too hot and arid to sustain life in the numbers there at present.
Dilution of the northern Atlantic from increased rainfall and ice melt could switch off the North Atlantic Drift plunging Northern Europe into a unlivable ice age.
So if we, even for our own benefit don't take some important steps to improve and make better the entire world, it won't be millions who want to come here. It will be 100's of millions fighting to get here. Fighting to get here not just for a better life, but fighting for their very survival, fighting for just life itself.
The present immigration debate will become insignificant if we don't prevent the apocalyptic nightmare fast approaching.
Celtic Lion
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#113 As always an excellent analysis of the world Roger. I keep wondering where the 162 million Bangladeshi are going to move to, once their country floods.
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#96 Kashy Last week on Questiontime someone said their mum or gran was frightened by the way the culture in the street she lived was changing so rapidly and this seemed to be a reason for limits on immigration. The original statement wasn't fully explored but I guess it had something to do with colour rather than Mozart versus Stockhausen.
Why does it have to be a question of colour? It doesn't matter what race you are inundated with, if you are the only original resident of a street, because you foolishly bought a house in the '50s, and thought you would live with your own culture, but have another one forced on you.
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Roger is this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8357537.stm showing measurable waters rising in countries that are low lying? I read that the rise is increasing from 0.46 to 0.75, but where is this being found?
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#114 Lizzy
Thanks for the compliment. I try to write from 'objective reality'/.
Based on underlying understanding of thermodynamic and other processes of global (and even cosmic) ecological systems. From these assess socio/economic/political constructs from the 'mind of man'.
#116 Don't ask me because I don't know the answer. It is an overall question that I wanted to find and would know the answer to, but the Government turned down the project that would have found all this out.
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/ecodome/
The planet is in a mess!
As regard the 162 million Bangladeshi. Well just part of the billions of refugees that will soon start moving from planetary upheaval.
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Mim
A quick pick up from yesterday.
Can’t remember if I mentioned about the Asquith poem – we never got that in English, but from my wonderful, inspirational history master. His father had been one of those ‘hopeful idealistic young men far too eager to sign up. He also took some of us on local archaeological digs, which inspired my interest in all, but especially medieval history. I studied part way through A levels in English Literature, History and Economic History before home situations required me to leave school and get a job.
I was recollecting earlier how a friend of a friend, whom I have never met but email through a shared interest told me a while ago that she was a bank manager in a previous life and through that knew/knows JP quite well. Says he’s an absolute darling. Shhhh. Don’t tell Gordie!
If I confused you yesterday about name calling, let me be clear. My comment was directed at NF2 and GO1 who seem unable to agree to disagree without name calling, labelling and basically throwing their toys out of the pram.
I may go quiet shortly as I have had a stressful week and fully intend to shut out the world for a few hours shortly, enjoy a nice dinner, relax with some Bach, a glass of something mellow and catch up some pleasurable reading. After all it is the weekend.
Hope all is well in your pat of the world.
If you want to use this thread for sharing occasional slightly off the hottest topic comments, I can’t imagine anyone should be too unduly upset. I assume it will stay on view for a while.
I might even send you a poem over the weekend.
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#86 Mim
I recall from London days a pub called the Half Moon, I think Putney, or was it Richmond. Wherever, it had lots of live music and theatre. I also remember one in Chiswick road with a tree and a pond in the middle (inside). The Wagon and horses? Two along the river in Kew area were the Strand on the Green and the City Barge where I misspent my youth playing darts. This would have been in the mid to late 70's.
I would be interested to know if they are still there.
I tried ice skating a few times (Richmond) but it wasn't for me. Nor was skiing. I know now that I have fairly poor balance and rhythm.
I am athletic but not at all balletic and was in constant danger of taking someone's fingersoff. Most often my own!
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Mim
A few months back, at a pretty bad time after a dreadful loss in a young family friend I heard John Suchet on tv talk of the 'loss' of his lovely wife Bonnie. Bonnie was there in the flesh, but not often in the spirit of the woman he loved, torn from him by the viscous ravaging of dementia. I think it is what I fear more than most and I was so moved not only by his own story, but by the failing we as a society suffer for caring for those who are old, frail, weak or misunderstood.
I started to scribble words down in anger and distress. Soon, this appeared to take form.
Wake to remember; sleep to forget
Forget who we are
What we do and need to do, and are and used to be
Awake in chains, bound; secure and sound
Sound mind. Mind not who we are
Where we go, or went and what we did, or need to do.
Here: dishes in the cupboard, dirty
There: boots in the bathroom, slippers in the yard
Everywhere: flesh of the present; only vapour of the past
Biting tongue to draw blood, feel pain
Pain inflicted by pinching, punching
An arm, a pillow. Not you my love
Alone to be free. Free together to
Live, love and laugh again. ; A loneliness wells up
To suffocate and extinguish all that I am, that we were.
Will you go, so I can live
Live the life we should be sharing
For who you were, and I am meant to be.
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