BBC BLOGS - Newsnight: From the web team
« Previous | Main | Next »

Friday 13 November 2009

Sarah McDermott | 18:49 UK time, Friday, 13 November 2009

Here are details of what's coming up on Newsnight at 10.30pm:

The man accused of masterminding the 9/11 attacks is to be put on trial in New York, just a few blocks from where the Twin Towers used to stand. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed - and four other men - will be transferred from the detention centre at Guantanamo Bay and be tried in a civilian federal court.

The move is part of US President Barack Obama's efforts to close the detention centre at Guantanamo Bay, but some relatives of 9/11 victims say they oppose a federal court trial. Tonight, we will be discussing the issues surrounding the trial with a relative of a 9/11 victim, plus senior US political and legal figures.

Also, Gordon Brown has confirmed he spoke to the owner of The Sun newspaper Rupert Murdoch, following the row over the letter of condolence he wrote to the mother of a soldier killed in Afghanistan. The newspaper attacked Mr Brown over his letter to Jacqui Janes, whose son Jamie was killed in Helmand, saying it contained spelling mistakes, and further criticised him after he telephoned Mrs Janes to discuss the letter with her.
Our Culture Correspondent, Steve Smith will be looking at who won in the battle between The Sun and the prime minister.

And here's Kirsty with news of what's happening on Newsnight Review at 11pm:

We'll be discussing the complicated cultural responses of German directors and writers to the fall of the Wall, 20 years ago this week.

My guests are journalists Paul Morley and Anne McElvoy, German curator and film critic Maxa Zoller, and Peter Miller who writes German and English thrillers (and also the memoir 1989: The Berlin Wall, My Role in its Downfall).

We'll be discussing this year's Cannes Film Festival winner, The White Ribbon, and a clutch of other films about Germany's recent past.

We'll be asking what is behind the rise of "Ostaglie", the nostalgia for the GDR that many in and beyond Germany find baffling - there is even a GDR show on television. Has the failure of many to find the "blossoming landscapes" Helmut Kohl promised in 1989, obliterated memories of the hated Stasi and the thousands killed trying to escape? Or is the yearning for a simpler and more ordered way of life understandable?

We'll be discussing both Good Bye Lenin, and the Oscar winning The Lives of Others.

We'll also examine whether the more confrontational views of repression are coming from outside Germany, looking in particular at the Nobel Prize winning novelist, Herta Muller, and her deeply affecting novel, The Land of Green Plums. Plus, the "pathetic" stories of life under Ceausescu, in Cristian Mungiu's Tales from a Golden Age.

Also Pop went the Wall - was pop music a force in the destruction of the Wall? From Michael Jackson to Bruce Springsteen to Pink Floyd?

Then we move on to talk about what lies behind the phenomenal success of Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 which, on its release this week. It broke records when it instantly became the biggest selling launch across games film and DVD - taking $310 million in North America and the UK alone.

Do join us.


Page 1 of 2

  • Comment number 1.


    Will there be a jury? Will the jury be drawn from the citizens of New York? Will the fixers make sure that none of them are from the sizeable percentage who don't believe the official story of the 'empathic collapse' of three buildings?

  • Comment number 2.

    "Or is the yearning for a simpler and more ordered way of life understandable? "

    why is it so difficult to understand that it is not 'either or' but different shakes for different makes.

    some people do better in a protective state and some people do better in the wilds of capitalism.

  • Comment number 3.


    1/ He does not know how, or when, to smile - yet attempts to attach smiling to his political repertoire.
    2/ When Blair was being 'Dispatch Box Tony' Brown was a picture of fidgeting, childlike dejection.
    3/ He makes much of being a 'Son of the Manse'.
    4/ Likewise he spoke repeatedly of his Moral Compass.

    I am inclined to the view that he might well write letters to relatives of military personnel as a calculated 'act'. That would lie comfortably with the above behaviours. Such writing would be irksome to the writer, and might well be enacted in an off-hand manner. The two letters I have seen, are precisely resonant with THAT smile: BADLY EXECUTED 'WARMTH'.

    Finally - as Brown can decipher such writing, then his eyesight is OK. The semi-hysteria about attacking a disabled person, is crass.

  • Comment number 4.

    I spent some months in 1975/6 in Charlottenburg, then a bourgeois suburb of West Berlin.

    I can understand the sense of "Ostalgie" described above, for during those months I spent an increasing amount of time in East Berlin, using the Stadtbahn to drop me off at the Friedrichstrasse railway station almost every Saturday.

    The view from Unter den Linden through the Brandenburg Gate towards West Berlin will remain a treasured memory for me; I remember watching and listening as organized groups of uniformed FDJ (Free German Youth) were led to the barbed wire and told that the wall in front of them was essential in keeping out decadent western habits which would attempt to undermine German Democratic Socialism.

    Russian soldiers in uniform would stop and ask in impeccable American English if we had any American cigarettes for sale; it was always advisable to carry a few spare packets, but never sell them, rather offer them round free, thus avoiding difficult accusations of black marketeering.

    I became a regular at the Comic Opera Theatre's matinees,superior performances to any in West Berlin and attended regularly by British, French and American military and diplomatic officials.

    East Berlin was certainly quieter than the West, but not cowed or subdued and I remember spirited political arguments taking place in the open air bars around Alexanderplatz; with good DDR bier at 12 pfennigs for half a litre (about 4p I think) it was difficult for anybody to stay cowed for long. I spoke with dancers from the ballet and students from other Soviet bloc countries freely and frankly; nobody seemed wary or nervous.

    I always returned to West Berlin on Saturday night because of visa restrictions and the difference was marked; strip clubs, drugs and a palpable sense of "let's party, live for today, 'cos tomorrow may be red", as one of my friends described the rather desperate atmosphere.

    The sense of community experienced in East Berlin has gone and replaced by an extreme form of materialism; nothing worse than a convert, I suppose; and people who saw work/labour as a right/responsibility/duty are now allegedly unemployable.

    Excellent films abound such as the ones mentioned above, particularly Goodbye Lenin and the Lives of Others, but I can honestly say I saw none of the oppression, wariness or fear portrayed. Maybe I was just among a bunch of extremely good actors; whatever the case I can appreciate the sense of loss many experience and articulate as "Ostalgie". I look forward with interest to NN's exploration of the phenomenon.

  • Comment number 5.

    Having been tortured by UK police I find the trial thing quite difficult. UK police took me to withinminutes of killing me. The only way they said they would allow me to live was to sign a release form.

    Later I found the signature on a charge form, for offences I had not committed, been arrested for or even charged with.

    At least there is an admission of torture in the US. This does improve things. In the UK torture occurs-but it doesn't exist. So even though you have evidence of torture not solicitor, police complaints, human rights organisation or court will look at the evidence.

    If they did it would officially recognise that UK police are permitted to torture members of the public. And the establishment wouldn't want that, not good PR.

    The hypocrisy in the UK is absolute. The clammer to oppose torture in other countries is only matched by the intensity of the cover up of torture here.

    People don't believe torture in the UK exists. They will only realise when it happens to them, then find out there is no help for victims of torture in the UK. Torture does not end with police officers deliberately taking someone close to the point of death.

    It continues with the cover up. The constant threats that are made to those who have suffered torture to ensure the practice is kept quiet and away from the spotlight of public investigation.

    The lawyers appear on TV and tell victims of torture to report it to the police. UK police will not investigate torture by UK police, because it is a civil and not a criminal matter. Which conveniently gets them out of having to expose UK mainland torture. If it isn't investigated it doesn't exist.

    I must have approached around 100 legal firms. Not one will even look at the evidence. Exposing UK torture is too much like rocking the boat. So while I write this I know someone somewhere in the UK is being tortured.

    While the justice system and the media conveniently look the other way.

  • Comment number 6.

    As someone who gets very exited playing and indeed discussing videogames, can I just say how pleased I am that Modern Warfare 2 featured on the show tonight.

    I've watched Newsnight Review for as long as I can remember, and have always wondered when a game would get more than a casual mention - I think this just about qualifies.

    Certainly there have been better and more intelligent videogames over the past decades that have been more deserving of a feature on Newsnight Review, so it must be also said that it's somewhat regrettable that the only reason this featured was due to sheer market force - or the slight controversy over its content (which has been largely quashed by the great and the good in various media).

    I am glad that you chose to avoid talking about that particular aspect, and gave an honest look at it - however brief.

    Paul Morley was however spot on when he talked about how the game is crude in concept and just a 'shooting gallery' - and some of his comments about the violent content do ring true. Believe me, there are many from 'within games' as he put it, who would rather that videogames getting wider recognition for the many more intelligent and interesting (and artistic!) games out there.

    Paul was also right when he said how there is a defensive attitude from within which says 'you don't play games and therefore you don't understand why [this game] is great'. This is definitely not helpful when it comes to progressing the form itself. Part of this stems from how games have grown from being a niche culture largely derided by the mainstream - when a game would never have the particular honour of being featured on Newsnight Review! - to what it is now, a global mainstream phenomenom. I think that a lot of people who play games have not yet learnt to embrace outsiders and still are quick to throw the first stone.

    Regardless, hopefully in the years to come, we will see Review give focus to the many more intelligent and progressive videogames which are arriving, or which have already arrived - it would be nice to see Newsnight leading the way somewhat in this respect!

  • Comment number 7.


    Many times in the media I have heard discussions of waterboarding and torture. These are by people who never have been tortured. One American official talked about how American soldiers tried out waterboarding on each other to see what it was like. He remarked that none of them were bothered.

    This is a man hiding from the public the truth about torture. Torture is about taking someone close to death in a physical manner but also the psychological environment created surrounding the act.

    If an American soldier is going to let his mate waterboard him to see what it is like. He knows that his mate isn't going to let him die. He may have a physical sensation of close to death, but knows it's just a sensation like going on a fairground ride.

    Torture is about taking the control of someones life away from them. Taking away the decision of whether that person lives or dies into other hands. Giving that control to people who do not care whether you live or die, and if they do kill you they will be protected by the establishment environment around them.

    When you are being tortured and know you are close to death, the decision whether you die or not is taken by the torturer. Not you. Torture is about taking that control from you.

    Torture becomes, is, a psychological game of survival. Military personnel playing the game never cross the Rubicon into the psychological arena.

    When you are close to death, the priorities of the brain, the mind change. Everything contracts in. Imagine an animal caught in a trap close to death. Many animals will bite their own leg off. They do that to survive in that perfect moment of contracted existence they are in. Even though the damage, the loss of a limb, may cause their death in the future. It is irrelevant. Survival into the next second, the next minute is the only thing that is important. Not the future.

    When you are being tortured. Here we have to assume what you do under torture is not to compromise the safety of others, here this gets complicated regarding my torture, because torture also involves deception.

    If someone is being tortured, and is physically and psychologically close to death, and the control the decision of whether they live or die is to be taken by someone else. Everything changes.

    Even if to stop their death in the next minute they have to confess to a crime that they haven't done, even one which carries the death penalty. They will do it. In that moment close to death, even if the only option is deferring death, that option will be taken.

    Just like the animal biting it's own leg off.

    I have been tortured by UK police and taken so close to death I would have sawn my own leg off. That is something many people will not be able to understand. But that is because they have never been tortured when the only other option is imminent death.

    There has been criticism of JJ on this blog. But some of what JJ says is true. JJ makes a critique of the Human Rights Act. Emphasis on Rights. JJ maintains each of us should have responsibilities.

    The Human Rights Act re UK torture illustrates JJ's point. If a gang breaks into your house and tortures you or your family, that is a criminal offence.

    If the police ask you to go to a police station. Then they torture you. That is a violation of your human rights under the act. Torture is a human rights violation, civil law. Not criminal.

    You cannot report torture by UK police as a criminal offence. You have to do everything. You have to find a solicitor. You as an individual have to take on the entire legal system. If the police decide to come round you house and threaten you and your family for doing it. Tough. That is not a criminal offence. You have to deal with it, under the human rights act that is a civil legal problem.

    The police, as JJ's analysis proves correct, don't have a responsibility not to torture you. Your protection has been transferred from the state to the individual. You have a right not to be tortured. So if you are tortured by UK police the state gives you no protection. It is up to you to exercise your right not to be tortured.

    If the police kick your door in tonight and take you to a police station and torture you. That is not a criminal offence. It is a violation of your human rights. So you as an individual have to deal with it on your own.

    Under the Human Rights Act the state has no responsibility not to torture you. It gives you the right not to be tortured. Unless you have been tortured you might not understand. Trust me I have been tortured and been told I would be left to die on a police cell floor.

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 8.

  • Comment number 9.


    Perhaps I may offer some small nugget of advice to Gordon Brown.

    When you need or desire to write difficult letters, the content of which require a certain sensitivity of touch but also the warmth and personal touch of a simple hand written epistle, try this:

    FIRST - Compose the text on a computer programme. This you can check, change and refine

    THEN - carefully select your medium: paper size, colour, weight and quality; writing implement, ink colour, nib size.

    FINALLY - write by hand, slowly and with care, the content you have opted for.

    This need not make it any less genuine, merely a little more refined.

    For sadly few of us post war baby boomers are adept at writing perfectly off the cuff.

  • Comment number 10.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 11.

    When I asked Jeremy Paxman at the Tate whether he painted himself he responded that no, he didn't to his regret have this skil but may have painted as a child mainly in the colour of green and then went on to say that he felt it was important to know one's own limits implicating, I assume, the futility of trying to pretend that one is something or like somebody else that one obviously is not. As jj is not capable of thinking along such reasonable lines, he lives and acts, I repeat, in a self-created world of false identity parades.
    I have now had my 3 hours of sleep but am hoping to get some more in a little while. If not successful will have to catch up later on after ice skating.
    We had a plumber in today who put new taps over my bath but the pump is still 'playing' havoc with 'extraterrestrial' noises coming off the left red tap over the bathroom sink, which reminds of the field circles in some of England's pastures green which as Newsnight eventually found out were 'created' by a moustache sporting joker.
    I'm thinking of contacting Mr John Sawers directly to see whether he would help me sort out the pump problem in my attic. One never knows, if the Queen herself doesn't feel too grand to respond to my ditties and musings, then perhaps John Sawers will as well though this time in a very practical and matter of fact manner.
    I am somewhat worried that I might be keeping you awake, Brightyangthing. Apologies if I do.
    Have a good weekend

  • Comment number 12.

    one more: FAO: Mr John Sawers
    I'm in correspondence with Krystyna Janda, the Polish actress who I have previously written about on these pages. Earlier today I sent off my ditties on Coperncus, Miss Mighty and Marie Curie Sklodowska to her website called 'Krystyna Janda. Dziennik'. In only a few hours my ditties seemed to have been read by quite by up to 60 people with a few of them sending their comments. One of them, under the guise of Zenobja, sent back dirty messages with the last one being of a threatening nature of intents to kill. I am quite sure it is JJ, David Budgen, playing 'mischief' again which is all obviously mixed up with Newsnight, the 'game' that Sir Michael Lyons is fully aware of but may not be able to do much about it but trying to appeal to reason with such people like JJ and by implication, I'm afraid, Mark Thompson. It's all no good and I'm making sure that the world knows about it, including institutions like CIA and the Polish secret services. By far the best solution would be if things got sorted out in this country by this country's security services rather than me having to rely on foreigners.
    I'd be much obliged for help.
    Newsnight have the rest of my detials if you don't have them yet though I suspect you do.

  • Comment number 13.

    Your 'pleasures', jj, are short lived and artificially induced anyway, so they don't count. I get no pleasure from it whatsoever nor do I find it 'stimulating', contrary to what you seem to think. I seem to have been born with almost boundless resources of my own, thank you. I don't need your help.

  • Comment number 14.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 15.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 16.

    4 - I too have experienced varied reports on living in the former Eastern Bloc. Czech people seem to have had a particularly harsh time with breakdown in trust even between family members. Romanians weren't under as much surveillance but intellectuals tended to thrash out ideas al fresco. In Macedonia, a charming female professor sheepishly confided that, 'we were happy under Tito'.

    Perhaps we are not taking a sufficiently nuanced look at what exactly life under the 'Eastern Bloc' was. Ironic considering the disproportionate emphasis placed on plurality in the West? Many cultures in West Europe but only one culture in East Europe, is it?

    7 - that's a very useful, if terrible, concept of 'that perfect moment of contracted existence'. I'm sorry you had to experience what you did.

  • Comment number 17.


    There are a few problems with your thinking there mim. I get the feeling someone sent you an offensive message in response to a ditty. They may be unaware of what your like - how you articulate and not sure how to respond or just plain invidious. Try to ignore it and don't message them again. I'm very sure its not jj, the other persons you have mentioned from your life or Newsnight. Its important that you come to realise this for your own development.

  • Comment number 18.


    I beg to disagree with you, Streetphotobeing, and have already informed the Polish Secret Services about this 'joke', yet one more in the insidious and vile 23-year old or thereabouts line of 'jokes'.


  • Comment number 19.


    Without realising it, I am now reading this thread as 'The Matrix-Moor's Interminable Sigh' - a quasi-surreal novel, of quantum-entangled folk.

    I look forward to its 'strange attractiveness' as it inexorably collects more fugitives from Chaos. The unpredictable nature of Blodog, now emerges as perfectly in keeping with the ruling paradigm (until it shifts, of course). And knowing that there is NO CHANCE of working out where the plot is headed, allows total relaxation when reading. Is the Force with us? Is Newsnight a God? I may never know . . .

  • Comment number 20.

    Mr Singleton
    In my universe there is no God. There is only nature, normal people and creeps/nutters.
    In the religious universe there is no place for a 'new self-proclaiming god'. This should be considered as manifestation of profanation of their beliefs, be they Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, Quakers, Mormons, Methodists or Muslims.
    Apologies to the other religions I haven't mentioned.

  • Comment number 21.

    Re: the functioning of the power pump pumping water to the attic
    Sometimes it stops altogether, then it comes on but when the water is not running it is liable to send 'radiomagnetic' simulated noises of different tones and shades over the left (red) sink tap.
    I have just managed to have a bath with the new taps working beautifully but when I tried to use the shower it first poured out very cold water in the position where hot water should be coming out and when I tried to move the shower tap around it only produced very hot water, in all positions. What a joke! As these days I only use Timotei shampoo for both washing my hair and my body, the rinsing is not so important because straight after shampooing my hair I rinse it in the still clean water that is already in the bath. I can live with that without throwing tantrums but should I have to live like this?

  • Comment number 22.

    Oh, by the way, the plumber thinks it's the government's fault, all these problems with the power pump pumping water to the attic.

  • Comment number 23.


    It must be a slow news day because I just checked and it isn't April 1st.

    WHY OH WHY OH WHY are these half baked, clear as mud, draft 'expert' reports and NO STORY stories given print and air time. Doh!

    A woman from the FSA was on breakfast news this morning, with NO IDEA what she was talking about, or the report was about or what the item was meant to be about. The presenters were confused and kept asking

    "What are you telling us.
    That we are getting fatter BUT we can eat (probably)400 calories more a day each? That doesn't make sense!"

    Crank up iplayer. It was laughable.

    There is nothing new under the sun. Eat less. Move more!
    If you want detail, ensure that most of what you eat is nutrient dense, calorie light rather than the other way round, which is what we do now by and large.


    People get paid good money for 'researching' and putting out this dangerous twaddle.

    Will the last sane person to leave the planet please please please .................. give their one way ticket to these idiots first.

    In space, no one can hear you SCREAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Comment number 24.

    Superb, Brightyangthing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Comment number 25.

    I've come across an article from the Evening Standard written by Stephen Robinson entitled 'Fear and loathing inside the BBC'. It appeared on 19 October this year.
    A fascinating read, especially regarding the reign of terror that the BBC's employees find themselves immersed in, as well as all those managerial posts with not many people really knowing what they are for and for which huge sums of money are paid out.
    I also thought the bit about Mark Byford 'interesting'. I didn't know that there were 2 Marks in powerful positions at the BBC.
    Stephen Robinson also talks about the quality of the current output with the implication that probably the radio is being lessed damaged by the 'game'.
    It's well worth a read.

  • Comment number 26.

    Nos 25

    Yes mim its a good read indeed :

    Its going to get worse for them as well. 3 billion a year - THREE THOUSAND MILLION to the Oxbridge brigade that we are forced to pay for - its TV - its insanity that a tiny island is paying that. The BBC should be about news and debate and not all the other nonsense.

    I don't believe you can magic up 200 billion of funny money (QE) and not have inflation. Its going to hit us down the road and those lot are for the chop.

  • Comment number 27.

    I've just found out that the Head of the MI5 is Jonathan Evans, I've never bothered to look before, the man who does not condone torture. I wonder what his attitude to the treatment of the woman with the famous crutch is!?
    Is she a threat to national security, Mr Evans?
    Is she a threat to the Constitutional Monarchy?
    Is she a threat to the Parliament based at Westminster?
    Is she a threat to democracy?
    Is she a hiding creep?
    I would be much obliged for the answers to these questions, Mr Evans.
    Newsnight have all my details should you wish to get in touch with me directly.

  • Comment number 28.

    Ah, thanks for the back up, Streetphotobeing!
    Much obliged.

  • Comment number 29.

    There are many technical mistakes that the BBC make, many of them most wouldn't be aware of but the obvious solutions to some speak of real basic technical analytical program making problems. I'll give you one which is obvious and very frustrating for all who view the very second it happens - talking over each other, the effect of this is to immediately frustrate and alienate the interested viewer. Obvious answer - switch microphones on and off or lower the sound level of those talking over who ever is answering? HELLO BBC anyone in there ? 3 Billion a year and we have over talking .

  • Comment number 30.

    #29 Streetphotobeing

    That's precisely what some of the Newsnight bloggers were complaining the other day about with Kirsty in the chair. I didn't actually see this particular debate myself so can't really say how frustrating it may have been but can only imagine one voice trying to topple another with a third butting in, etc.


  • Comment number 31.

    KCL - You sent your experience to Clive Stafford Smith ?

    Mim - they do it all the time every debate show that's on. In real life we cope with it much better (were able to mentally lower sound levels and concentrate on what we wish to hear) than via TV and that's why its so frustrating. And when you know there are answers its even more frustrating.

  • Comment number 32.

    Mim. #25
    Thanks for that heads up. I was aware of some of the ‘arguments’ against the fat cats at the BBC, but not this report in its entirety.

    I have cut and pasted and will peruse at leisure. However, possibly because of one of the projects I am currently undertaking some work for, namely restructuring a committee to make it more accountable, focused and streamlined, this line struck a chord with me.....

    ‘.....Mark Byford is deputy director-general, a job title that no one inside the corporation understands, and which used not to exist.’

    Now it is the word ‘deputy’ that leaps out. A general definition of ‘Deputy’ is

    “somebody fully authorized or appointed to act on behalf of somebody else” therefore NOT an entity in its own right.

    So, it is NOT a job in itself. Most deputy chairman or whatever have another SPECIFIC job title/remit but are expected to stand in (deputise) if needed if the Chairman is absent. So perhaps a little like an understudy in the theatre.

    The Deputy/Understudy, whilst being prepared to ‘step in’ when needed, has their own specific role to carry out in the meantime.
    Some organisations use the role of Deputy .....???? (Let’s say Director General for sake of Argument though I am more used to Chairman) as part of the hierarchy – the deputy being the DG in waiting. Nurtured and prepared to be the natural successor, though this methodology is losing favour due to discrimination legislation largely.

    So I would be very interested in the job description, accountability, reporting structure and career path of anyone with ‘Deputy’ in their job title. What are their targets/goals in terms of measuring their delivery of their product/service to the end consumer, therefore justifying their salary, be it a basic minimum wage of £millions per annum.

    Then perhaps we may know what the DG him or her self does.

  • Comment number 33.


    Again, Brightyangthing, you've come up with a great analysis. I seem to be surrounded by deputies myself, both in Poland and in the UK, with some trying to topple their bosses while the others are awfully keen on throwing their weight about, for self-promotion and that of their 'backer', I assume. I won't give names here but it looks like Mark Byford is a new deputy for me to add to the 'Deputy List' I need to keep my eyes on.

    In fact, I've just been thinking of composing a ditty on battling chiefs and hopefully will be ready with it by the end of the day.


  • Comment number 34.

    BBC on the BNP membership meeting report:
    '"But to have members of loyal assimilated minorities in this country involved in the party as well I'm sure will actually help".

    If the membership rules change, critics will no longer be able to say the BNP is an all-white party, or that it discriminated on the grounds of race or religion. '

    So all of the race "realists" and those who gravitate towards the Hitler notions of racial purity have come to their senses?

    Those far right posters who pollute this page will endorse the view proposed by the honorable Nick Griffin (only one conviction for inciting racial hatred) that 'he welcomed the change, which the party had been "moving towards" for years.'

    Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !!!!

    Can he manage to satisfy those National Socialist wolves dressed as sheep in the inner circle whilst reassuring those on the outer circle who perhaps genuinely believe this it really is a "British" party that is "not a Nazi party" and it is simply a patriotic nationalist party.

    I suppose politically if you can pull off promoting Churchill and Hitler then you can't lose ideologically .....

    But then the Jaded_Jean (an old poster whose ludicrous ideas are endorsed by the other far right posters) notion that WWII was effectively engineered BY the Jews who manipulated Stalin and Roosevelt (who were quite like Hitler according to posts of (01/11/08)) and having won the war they for some reason needed to create the notion of a Holocaust to put people off "statism". Jaded_jean thought Roosevelt and Stalin were "statists" so you can see why they would need to do that.

    So that all makes perfect sense until you consider the Nuremburg trials, the Final Solution documentation and so on and the common sense factor that in world history millions of people from different nationalities with different races have never combined to create a falsehood on that scale that did not unravel in the blink of an eye.

    So as Newfazer/Newfazermk2 would have it from that date:

    '89. At 12:42pm on 27 Oct 2008, NewFazer wrote:

    Holocaust Schmolocaust

    Gangofone #83

    And you, sir are a bigot. You simply reject all opinion differing from you own. You are obstinately devoted to your own prejudices even when these are challenged and shown to be false.'

    So there has never been any public refutation of the Holocaust and the fact that the only people to have tried, like Irving, did not intend to go to trial. You can tell a lot if somebody promotes a truth and then runs for cover when it comes time to prove the truth. Are they ever going to prove their case in public or in non-attributed internet posts?

    If they believed in their racial policies as science (ha ha ha) why does Griffin not promote that science in a court case that challenges the legal requirement not to disbar members because of race? Newfazer who is terribly clever can probably provide a few links and non-scientific quotes from James Watson. But science .. nah!

  • Comment number 35.

    I'm not sure about that, i.e. about real life. I get quite often accused of interrupting others, especially when they start repeating themselves or I am so charged up with the need to communicate that I simply have to get it out of my system. Also, let's say in a group situation like the French cinema class, I get so terribly tired at times that even when others are saying most interesting things, my eyes just let me down and close down on me, but interestingly enough when I start talking myself something happens to my brain waking it up for a while. Some evenings are a real struggle for me if I haven't had enough sleep and I am surprised that those who want my attention do not understand this obvious fact. Or perhaps there are too many expecting me to be on the ball all the time?

    But there are also real life situations I've been involved in when I didn't need to speak myself but watched others interrupting their guests for example and not letting them speak for as long as half an hour.

    So, basically, the difference between real and TV situations is not as clear cut as that but I would agree with you that the presenters/chairmen should have the ability to keep discussions between various parties under control with preservation of respect for the views of the other participants, something that Jeremy Paxman seems to excel at.


  • Comment number 36.

    31 Streetphotobeing

    No not yet, was looking at the site a couple of days ago. Tried all the main human rights solicitors in London that you see on TV, but they won't take cases outside of London etc.

    It's complicated by what was a concealed organised crime ring. Briefly in England and Wales everyone has a right to a solicitor under PACE (Police and Criminal Evidence Act) paid by legal aid.

    What's going on is the police forge the custody records so it looks like someone has been actually arrested. A solicitor signs them saying spoke to client, all procedures complied with etc. They have done no such thing.

    But the solicitor can claim on the basis of the forged arrest and custody records for attending police station. The forged custody records are actually worth money in a fraud run by police officers and solicitors. Here you get the problem one solicitor is not going to 'dob' another solicitor up, just to represent a client.

    Who represents clients? Solicitors. Who investigates fraud? The police. Both are hardly likely to stop the golden goose laying the golden eggs.

    There are good reasons to suggest it is quite a sizable operation.

    Am looking at other options. But might contact Reprieve now you have mentioned it.

  • Comment number 37.



    That's a good line, this one:

    "I suppose politically if you can pull off promoting Churchill and Hitler then you can't lose ideologically ....."

    Yes, both in one breath! Miracles float in mysterious ways.


  • Comment number 38.

  • Comment number 39.

    38 Streetphotobeing

    Thanks. Tried them when they were part of the Law Society. It is just a bureaucratic minefield. Like a PR wing. First I was going through the courts. This resulted in the police on numerous occasions threatening me and giving a warning what would happen from the solicitor concerned.

    So with family etc couldn't do anything. Had to move away from the area, when I get in touch with the Law Society I was out of time to make a complaint.

    Again even though you have evidence of criminal acts. You are making a complaint about unprofessionalism which may involve criminal acts. But it is first and foremost a complaint which has to go through the complaints procedure. Where it can be rejected, so the actual criminal acts are never investigated.

    Another layer of bureaucratic protection for them.

    Thanks, keep sending any ideas just in case there is something I have overlooked.

  • Comment number 40.

    Streetphotobeing & Brightyangthing

    I've been struggling in my mind whether to repeat the final words of the Director of Tate Britain Gallery, Mr Stephen Deuchar, or not but am finally opting for the positive answer, especially that the conceptual expression has recently been used in the Houses of Parliament by one of the democratically elected Labour MPs which he addressed to Gordie.

    Rounding up the question time after Jeremy Paxman's talk on the Victorians, Mr Stephen Deuchar said that Jeremy was a National Treasure as well.

    I'm not sure whether you would agree with that statement or not but I thought I might as well let you know.


  • Comment number 41.

    to be just should not western military who commit crimes face trial in baghdad or kandahar with a jury of the local people? would not people say that is not justice but a lynch mob?

  • Comment number 42.

    #38 Streetphotobeing

    a google for

    celtic criminal record

    gives an introduction how incident reports are made up. The 31 Jan was made on 6 April, all this was done without my knowledge. Arrest and custody records are done similar. Without a persons knowledge details of an arrest can be made up.

    It cuts out all that cautioning of someone, allowing them to speak to a solicitor or knowing what they have been arrested for. As no offence has been committed in reality no arrest can be made. So the whole lot is simply fabricated. Easy when you know how.

  • Comment number 43.

    39 & 40

    Off the top of my head :

    Yes Paxo is a national treasure but there are many others unknown due to the feudal 'important curator' dominated nature of the art world. We have a situation where artist just jostle for the attentions of those who can help their career ie a show at an important venue and work in an important collection. So you get an upper middle class creep show situation.

  • Comment number 44.

    Mim #40
    I'm not keeping up well - stressful work situations have continued so my way of stress release has been to spend much of the day cooking and watching constant re runs of coast on Blighty. Many places I know.

    Interesting comment from Dr S Deuchar. I have met Mr patrick Deuchar and his wife Liz Robertson a few times in the early 90's. I suspect they may be brothers.

    PD was md of the Royal Albert hall and with LR brought the cast of The Sound of Music' to a charity event I was organising in Aberdeen. He was tough but quite charming. She was, well, rather starry! Robin Nedwell and Christopher Cazenove were also in attendance.

    Perhaps the eulogy was a a bit too 'luvviedom' for me, but I guess that is the arts and media world. And whilst I do find JP one of the 'better' news reporters/presenters (though NOT perfect!) and enjoy what I have seen/read of other output, I am personally wary of putting any one on a pedestal, lest they fall. Always a painful experience.

    And I am not sure if 'national treasure' would make me think of something old, crumbling and nearing if not at its end. Let's hope not since I don't imagine JP to be much older than me. ROFL.

  • Comment number 45.

    Reading back a bit.

    Not much I can say about your described experience. Scarcely counters belief.

    BTW, if you drove the obvious route from L’kirk to Banchory, you probably went past my door. Spooky. Small world.

    Jaunty #41

    How should justice best be served?
    How should justice be defined?
    How should justice be separated from vengeance?

  • Comment number 46.

    #43 Streetphotobeing

    Brilliant. I have tried some of them. The IPCC are not really independent as the name suggests. They work through the force in question of who you are making the 'complaint' about. It is this if a police officer commits a criminal offence. You make a complaint. The legal system is very different in dealing with offences committed by the public and police officers. Members of the public are investigated for a criminal offence. Police officers have a complaint made against them.

    Any way the IPCC works through Professional Standards of the force in question. For PS read PR. They are not there to enforce standards or discipline they are there to protect the image of the force. Ie if officers commit offences, they cover them up. They can decide that there is no need for an investigation and the IPCC will abide by that decision.

    IPCC get seen to act when there is a very public incident. Such as shooting someone in the head on a train. For things like torture away from the public and media spotlight they have no need to do anything.

    Amnesty. Have written emailed phoned (message system0 not once have they got back. If you are being tortured in the UK don't bother with Amnesty.

    HRW. Don't deal with individual cases etc. Again up to now can't help but at least they do reply unlike Amnesty.

    Equality Human Rights, not tried them yet or European Parliament.

    Though what you have done is responded to me and that has got me thinking. Up to now I have been on my own. With girl friend and children, but they are more of a liability as they can be used and threatened to get at me.

    What was going on wasn't just me it was systematic abuse. Instead of what I have done before is single track through IPCC and when that doesn't work try Law Society etc. Is has to be more widespread, ask all these organisations to assist in exposing widespread abuse and torture.

    That is in everyone's interest. Until people actually know what goes on everyone is in potential danger.


  • Comment number 47.

    This time, Celtic, in a rounabout way, thanks from mim.

  • Comment number 48.

    43 & 44

    Interestingly, I agree with you both. There are other national treasures, known and uknown, and not only in the arts world but the undeniable fact remains that JP and the owner of the famous crutch have been singled out recently in prominent places.

    As floor rather than pedestals is the female's preferred place of creativity, she seems perfectly aware of the dangers of suffering a fall with a resonding bang.


    you do seem to move around in interesting circles
    lucky you


  • Comment number 49.

    :o) Jeremy certainly IS a National Treasure


    "25 Jeremy Paxman. The reason we watch Newsnight, when we do. "

    I couldn't agree more!

  • Comment number 50.

    It may sound like a wast of time but have you tried a Citizens Advice ?
    They will not be judgmental and are on the clients side in an interview room. They may give you more information on lawyers who ought look at what has happened to you.

    Looking at the info and photos of documents on your site, a CAB should engage with you on that information - clearly something significant has happened.


    You seen any of Michael Haneke's films ? Kirsty was going on about him last night. His film The Piano Teacher was the first film I saw from him reminded me of my first girlfriend - A piano teacher though not as 'difficult'

  • Comment number 51.


    It's certainly interesting to see on the list of 50 tthough the context of why he and the female I've mentioned is quite diferent but I think I'll leave it at that.


  • Comment number 52.

    Yes, I have, disturbing.
    And I've seen his 'Cache', also disturbing but this time about a male.


  • Comment number 53.

    #45 Brightyangthing

    If I hadn't been tortured they couldn't have taken my job and business off me or shut down the environmental projects we were doing, having lost all income and no future, was made homeless. Needing money laboured on construction sites, then groundworker.

    Then still getting harassed decided to move away, so ended up a shuttering joiner in L'kirk. So drove past your door.

    Otherwise we would have done a £2.5m project. This could have been replicated all over the UK in other towns and boroughs. if only 200 places did it it would have been £500m.

    This would have put us into a position to take over the Millennium Dome, which we knew would fail. This would have become a global environmental management centre. The models proved correct and the 2007 UK floods would have been prevented. On Boxing Day 2004 the early warning and alert system for natural hazards would have been triggered by a Tsunami. The US Geological Survey software models and the information from satellites all feeding in to the system would have sent text messages to mobile phones, alerts to global media, and become front page on the website. 150,000 would be alive now.

    All the arguments over climate change would have resolved properly, not in some carbon trading pointless pantomine to make the richer richer and forgeting what the original intention was.

    So I sit and watch the world, knowing how the world could have been if UK police forces weren't permitted to torture people. Knowing the whole Earth system models give us 40 months before ecological system collapse not 88 months for the climate only projections.

    Tonight here the sky is black and clear and with some of the clearest skies in Europe stars beyond measure hang over head. Just existing in some Buddhist here and now waiting for the end.

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 54.

  • Comment number 55.

    Ah, Roger, I see you're no further forward with finding a solicitor to support you! Although I do think some of Streets suggestions are very good, even though he regards me as a BNP member!

    I really don't know where you go from here, what is needed is independent proof, which was made sure you didn't have!

  • Comment number 56.

    update on #82 of 13.11 and #12

    115 people have now read the ditty about the hen which wanted to outsmart the snake and which I sent off to Krystyna Janda's journal. It turns out that since Polanski's arrest a 'charlie chaplin' (aka zenobja) has been corresponding in the said journal re: sex with teenage girls, the Swiss bank UBS, cemeteries, rats and poison.

    So, it looks like a new link in the 'gold' chain Gordie was so keen to unravel has been found.

  • Comment number 57.

    If my post at #56 doesn't go through, I shall post it elsewhere, as well as printing it off!
    + Would you believe me if I told you that that one of the perpetrators has been calling this victim all day, as well as on so many other days, to the crime scene? That's the state of mind that he finds himself in these days.

  • Comment number 58.


    Earlier today I promised you a ditty on chiefs battling it out. In view of the most recent developments, it's different to what I first had in mind but hopefully better for it:

    Chief Battles

    There are a few chiefs as well as their deputies
    Fighting for favours from the famous crutch
    While the crutch composes her rhythm/rhyme ditties
    Not keen on supplying pleasure to creeps/nutters such.

    For the crutch is endowed with principles high
    Guided by love, not financial rewards
    What have we got here, oh my, oh my, oh my!?
    Love's always the winner, not the creepy whores!

    I hope you understand it and like it, Brightyangthing


  • Comment number 59.


    When I was on my way back from shopping at Sainsbury's this evening, I cycled through King George's Park. It was already very dark, high winds were blowing, I seemed to be the only person in the windy park enjoying the feeling of the elements on my face and ruffling up my hair. Elementary moments like that have always been memorable experiences for me, whether in the Polish mountains or in London parks.

    But what I really wanted to tell you here is that I took some snaps of lights playing against the dark sky which I shall be transferring to my Kodak Gallery in a few moments.

    Hope you have a good Sunday


  • Comment number 60.

    #55 Ecolizzy

    No I have the proof. That's the problem. That's why the system wont allow it to be seen or investigated. The justice system doesn't really want it known what is really going on.

    This veneer of good old British justice needs to be maintained, not peeled back to expose the rot beneath.

  • Comment number 61.

    #26 & #29

    It's difficult to know whether Roger Thomas is being ironic in his post above or whether he's been threatened again or promised big dosh.

    However, what I wanted to say is that earlier today I thought that perhaps we were seeing signs of democratic capitalism making a shift, however slight, towards more social awareness by the rich and the very very rich thus turning it into more of a capitalism with a human face.

    It's quite obvious that none of the communist type regimes have proved themselves to be good enough both in allowing ordinary folk to make financial and work decisions for themselves nor in promotion of democratic freedom, including the absolute of right of choice, etc.

    But after my discoveries of today, I am not so sure any more. Perhaps just about everybody is rotten to the bottom of their souls!?

    One thing is clear, however, that there is a definite shift towards more political transparency which is obviously a good thing and one can also sense more friendliness at heavily laden international gatherings with touches of good humoured messages coming out from them.


  • Comment number 62.

  • Comment number 63.

    I've just watched Matthew Collings' documentary on beauty which was broadcast last night and which I did not like. It starts with a shot on some painting supposedly representing a snail with Matthew imposing on the viewer his own dogmatic opinion of the beauty of the 'product'. I don't like this picture one little bit. In fact what I see in Henri Matisse's composition of squares is a doggie carrying a heavy weight (the black square) on his back. Well, I might as well dissect the picture the way I see it:
    - the bigger red square on the left is the head
    - the thinnest orange rectangle is the doggie's tail
    - the two bottom squares form the surface the doggie, carrying a heavy weight in the form of the black square, is on
    - the rest is almost obvious but plainly open to interpretation.

    Towards the end of the programme Matthew says that art is there to make us feel the beauty, or something to this effect. Art is created by people who are simply good at it and just do it, because it's their inner need to express themselves. There may be of course some works of art where the artist wishes to pass on a message, like Picasso's Guernica for example. But that doesn't mean that I consider the picture beautiful or even that I particularly like it. I may appreciate it for this or that reason but it does not have an immediate impact on my senses, be they more intellectually or more emotionally biased.
    Besides I didn't like Matthew's mannersims of talking to the viewer which seem to me far too affected for me to watch the whole programme.
    I can see that the programme was made by Seneca Productions that Alain de Botton is part of but I'm just wondering whether he had any influence on what and how Matthew chose to present his views on beauty. I somehow suspect that the answer from Alain would come as a negative one as his own style seems to me to be at odds with that of Matthew's and one day I might ask him.

  • Comment number 64.

    #63 continuation
    But, the above does not mean to say that I don't like all of Matisse's paintings, not at all. As a couple of examples I would point out to is his painting of naked dancing ladies or the one with a blue coloured lady sitting on a floor and with her right arm raised and her hand touching the top of her spine. In my opinion they are quite beautiful. And, to finish off, I also like quite a few of his abstract paintings but, unfortunately, not the doggie one.

  • Comment number 65.

    Enlightened Love

    The say: “Money, money, money makes the world go round”
    While I would suggest it's the other way round.
    Money can cause an awful lot of pain
    As we shall find out from thereof therein.

    How many rich kids make themselves harm
    Those who can afford parmesan with ham
    Every day for breakfast while oysters for supper?
    That's what Madam Mim's working on with Frapper!

    Love seems more powerful than money to be
    Love throws light on things
    For all now to see!

  • Comment number 66.

    #64 continuation
    I have now browsed through yet more of Matisse's paintings and have come to the conclusion that the choice of his snail was not made on beuaty grounds but rather it was to do with the name of the painting and the fact that it depicts squares.
    Russell Square anybody?
    more info can be supplied on request

  • Comment number 67.


    'Besides I didn't like Matthew's mannersims of talking to the viewer which seem to me far too affected for me to watch the whole programme.'

    Yes its cringe inducing isn't it. They all carry on in that affected way - the critics who are way up their other ends - Brian Sewell comes to mind, though I like reading him in The London Evening Standard and can stomach Waldemar Januszczak presenting to camera - still affected but he drives it with the devious intentions that he finds in the art, events of the art making and mixes it up with a sauce of verbal relish.

    Re Ecolizzy, KCL

    I don't like your sympathies to JJ one bit - but something significant has happened to KCL and I'm putting my non-judgmental hat on and doing what I did when working at CAB many years ago.

  • Comment number 68.




  • Comment number 69.

    This links to some photos of the stupid chaos yesterday at Millennium Point just outside the center of Birmingham - basically a development from the old science museum of Birmingham :

    What I want to point to is the 19th Century building you can see on the left of the photo from the top link. Birmingham is trashed a lot for its architecture but has a number of unknown gems :

  • Comment number 70.

    Nos 69

    Ooops I think I got that one wrong - red face - still you get to see some decent building of Birmingham.

  • Comment number 71.

    Nos 69, 70

    Nope I got it right, its the rear view of the station from that shot in the first link.

  • Comment number 72.

    we get the police we deserve and right now the police are answerable to so many groups it's a wonder they know which way is up anymore, I do know that we would all be a lot better off with police than some alternative

  • Comment number 73.

    69 & 70 & 71

    Streetphotobeing from Birmingham shows that there are good and positive things happening up sand down the country. Sheme only about all those crowd/police incidents.

    When I get back home I'm planning to look for more takes of the Millenium Point
    and of other buildings in Birmingham.

    Thank you


  • Comment number 74.

    A few other places of interest in Birmingham that I have visited very often :

    Edwardian Tea Room, Birmingham Museum & Art Gallery

    NN filmed there once with that American pollster Frank Luntz (I think)

    Barber Institute of Fine Arts :

    The Millennium Point building is absolutely massive.

    Nos 68

    I edited the best part of my little take on art critics efforts to camera - got a little carried away LOL

  • Comment number 75.

    #48 Mim
    I think your circles sound much more current and personal. Often rubbing shoulders with notables is so much more a question of coinciding places and times. Even being invited to the Queen’s Garden Party at Holyrood in 2005 was more about who knew me, and who they knew in turn than being any more deserving than thousands if not millions of others who ‘do their bit’ in one field or another.

    Interestingly, I found receiving the invitation rather more ‘special’ than attending the event. Not just because it poured down.

    I am catching up on reading now after working most of the day and missing a great a Glenesk Walk with my fitness group. That's Life, as they say. Hope you are enjoying your weekend.

  • Comment number 76.

    #53 Celtic
    Hope some of the links prove fruitful.

    Interesting you mentioned the 2004 Tsunami . A friend in this village (Sri Lankan) lost an aunt in the event. We actively support the rebuilding of their community but the fear of many is their vulnerability to future events.

    Bangladesh, being little more than a river delta, has always been a very fragile country, and I recall reading recently that The Maldives, being statistically the lowest lying country could disappear in just a very few years due to rising sea levels resulting from global climate change.

    I plan to read through your links (#54) when more awake and alert, but note with interest plans for the Millennium Dome – most apt in light of the theme of ‘EVO’ the Peter Gabriel influenced show that was the highlight?? of the central dome area during its ‘millennium year.
    ‘... doesn’t become bogged down in theory, he could act as an economic anti-depressant by stimulating council thinking. He appears to be a one man think tank.’

    From your newspaper clip. Some accolade. And then...............?

    Such breadth of vision needs a far wider audience. Like I said, I need to read more. And will.

  • Comment number 77.

    I'd like to see the Millenium Point with my own eyes. I ike massive buildings. I'm still on my iPhone but when I get back to my laptop I'll have a look at the others and get back to you.

  • Comment number 78.

    #58 Mim
    Have to admit to being a little unsure on a couple of references, but as said elsewhere, most ‘artistic’ outpourings are personal and therapeutic/cathartic to the individual concerned and therefore it is les important what another makes of them.

    I have been planning my next brief visit to the art gallery in Aberdeen later this week. I try to meet my oldest son and his girlfriend for lunch and a half an hour in one room or exhibition about once a month to coincide with meetings.

    My last visit a few weeks ago was interesting. We saw the following two short term exhibitions.

    (Ron Mueck has become internationally recognised for his unique realist sculptures that replicate the human figure with unrivalled technical skill. The powerful psychological range of Mueck's sculpture focuses not only on universal experiences of birth, life and death but on emotional states such as isolation, fear and tenderness.)

    I found this interesting though quite ‘full on’. I can’t say I saw the correlation between the two elements as described above, but it has perhaps made me even more perceptive of how the human spirit if you like manifests itself in the visible. When I am out and about in the populated world, I often find myself drawn to watch people closely, especially their inter connections with people and things around them. It happens with people on tv too. Most recently I find myself worried for Robbie Williams. All that talent. So little life in his eyes.

    (Formed. What makes Applied Art
    The exhibition considers what motivates makers and artists when they create objects and artwork through a featured selection of work from the permanent collections including ceramics, costume, glass, enamelling, jewellery, metalwork and textiles.)

    This was much more obvious and clearly defined. A study of beauty (adornment) and its place alongside practicality. Really enjoyed browsing.

    I liked your comments on democratic capitalism and communism on #61. may come back to that later.

  • Comment number 79.



    On the whole when I meet people, whoever they are, my exchanges with them become personal which sometimes is detrimental to the survival of those exchanges but by now I do have one exchange going with one of the luminaries which seems to have survived a few storms and doubts and I hope it'll prove to be durable for life.

    I had a superb time on ice today. My twirling and gliding keep reaching new dimensions all the time and I feel over the Moon now.

    Enjoy the read.


  • Comment number 80.

    #76 Brightyangthing

    "From your newspaper clip. Some accolade. And then...............?"

    That's covered by a Google for:

    Celtic UK flooded

    Trouble was it wasn't the vision it was the project management etc skills I had been taught. If I hadn't been stopped there was a fear there would have been an extra £50 billion per year in the UK economy from resolving a large proportion of the planets environmental challenges.

    That would have upset the balance of power so I was told with the local authorities, so the project needed to be stopped.

    The business plan reviewed in the cutting was going to be transferred to what we knew would be a failed Dome with just some alterations and additions.

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 81.

    # 80 Celtic

    As in 'Manor' and 'Newport'?

    Have to wade through stacks of Glaswegian football team dross!

  • Comment number 82.


    The dittie below is a rhymed version of what I was prosing about in #79:

    With the beautiful weather like that
    I flew to Queen’s in the morning
    With the weather not bad
    I felt like a cherry on icing.

    Hasn’t this autumn been special to us
    Displaying all of her splendour?
    Clearing up storms as well as doubts
    How can I not but surrender

    To the calls of my nature
    And the eyes of this love?
    Oh, what a wonderful venture
    Waving a black and pink glove!


  • Comment number 83.



    Communism is dead with those in power having access to unbelievable riches while their 'subjects' have to live not only in poverty but also having freedom denied to them, all that impregnated by reign of terror. I know something about it, I lived under such 'rulers' ruled in turn by their Soviet 'colleagues'.

    Democratic capitalism, due to the weakness of human nature, is not devoid of its shortcomings, like abuse of power, fraud and miscarriages of justice yet, in the long run, if one is strong enough or does find the right support, one has the opportunity to fight one's corner.

    I suspect most of the recent financial problems that democratic capitalist countries have been through have largely been brought on by machinations instigated by old fashioned and greedy commies but it looks like more and more light is being thrown at them, luckily, and so it is likely that their end is nigh.


  • Comment number 84.

    Streetphotobeing & Brightyangthing

    Apologies for all the misspellings which are due to me using the iPhone without my glasses on. I hope, however, that none of the meanings are lost.

    I need to get some sleep now but shall return later.


  • Comment number 85.

    #81 Brightyangthing


    Don't know, Celtic UK flooded, is the top hit on my Google. You could try a Google for, Celtic Lion UK flooded. That still is the top, or rather 2nd sub hit.

  • Comment number 86.

    #79 update

    I just thought I'd jot down a few more words on me getting personally involved and your description, Brightyangthing, to the Garden Party 'thrown' by the Queen.

    I would probably feel the same about going to one of those, although I do not think I know as many people as you do, even if I find it very easy to establish new contacts, like the one which happened with Dr Stephen Deuchar of Tate Britain.

    Did you actually have the opportunity to exchange a few words with the Queen herself?

    Personally, should I ever have the opportunity to meet Her Majesty the Queen I would rather have a few more moments to talk to her than a just a few pleasantries one is entitled to at a Garden Party. It probably sounds awfully presumptious of me but then one never knows in life who or what's waiting round the corner, does one?

    I suspect that quite a few people feel personal about the Queen as her private life has been described in quite a few books and then one can also read so many articles about the Royalty in the press. So, although the Queen is reveered and almost unreachable, most people do view her not only as the Monarch but also as a human being. She seems to excel in knowing how to keep the balance between the two. Would you agree with me, Brightyangthing, or am I talking nonsense?

  • Comment number 87.

    The music concert problems in Birmingham raise a few issues. This is the model on which many such events are based. The only condition of the event from the local authority was that they supply the compere. With 5 minutes to go and him not turning up another presenter had to be found.

    During the planning of the event we advised Greenpeace on how to stage live music events. The next year Greenpeace took over co-promotion of the Glastonbury Festival. Scotland's T in the Park admit they are influenced by that event.

    Apart from the obvious management of the Birmingham event, another consideration is the experience of the performers. When on stage and important aspect is controlling the emotion and attitude of the audience. This is something that putting inexperienced performers like JLS in front of a big crowd so soon. A performer that had had to spend years gaining experience of larger and larger crowds before they got the chance to perform in front of 20,000 would have have realised there was a problem and been able to dictate the mood of the crowd and probably have been able to have avoided the injuries.

    Experience which also would have been able to make the Millennium Dome a success.

  • Comment number 88.

    OK given up watching the X Factor, but an exception tonight.

    Shakira's on.

    No blogging then

  • Comment number 89.

    #86 Celtic


    You should have been watching Dr Who.

  • Comment number 90.

    # 86 mim

    I live in a very small rural community and have in my 20 years of being here been heavily involved in many groups, such as Scouts, Sunday school, Tennis Club and undertaken lots of fund raising and social activities.

    So, small community of about 400 -500 people, I (call me Mrs A) am known to local community council leader,(Mr B) who sits on church pew next to ‘ Lady ??? of the Manor’ (Lady C). Lady C happens to be the deputy Lord Lieutenant (Queen’s representative) of the county so Lady C asks Mr B for nominations of ‘good’ people of the community to suggest as guests at GP. In a larger community, or a lesser time or many other variables this would not have happened to me. Circumstances in my favour if you like.

    I was certainly (*and rightly) not deemed ‘great or good’ enough to warrant selection to meet Her Majesty directly.

    My view of the Queen and royalty may be best described by my reaction to the way the media and the GBP reacted when Diana died. When the Queen was lambasted for staying in Scotland with the boys (Balmoral is just 20 miles from me) I was incandescent with rage at their misunderstanding of what I saw was a human/mother/grandmother reaction. That of protecting her family first and foremost. Many may say that her responsibility to the country, but I maintain that she acted in absolutely the purest of motives. I found (still do) the reaction of the public quite surreal at that time.

    The tragic loss of a mother before with young children is a personal loss. Yet the public largely put their need to be appeased, to be involved, before the needs of two young boys to be allowed to come to terms with their loss in the bosom of their family.

    I do wonder if the florists who made a fortune out of the tragedy made very large donations to Diana’s charities. I was for many years chairperson of a branch of ‘Birthright’ (Now called Wellbeing I think) which was how I met Diana in 1988.

    So I think from this, we can deduce that we share a similar respect for the Queen and the balance she manages to attain.

  • Comment number 91.


    Like I said to Streetphotobeing earlier today-
    a perfect answer, Brightyangthing.
    Happy to confirm that we do share similar views


  • Comment number 92.

    #62 mademoiselle_h Immigration
    "It leads a sensible person to wonder what types of schools some of these so called students are attending, which allow them to arrive and start their courses in the middle of the term. It is also not surprising that Labour admitted to not interviewing every candidate upon arrival in to the country. Even fools can see the reason - they simply don’t have the time or resources to do so"

    Gordo pretends to answer your question by his misleading references to 'the points system' last Friday.
    Interviewing all students on arrival in UK should not be necessary if they were properly interviewed and evaluated BEFORE visas were granted, which is not the case as I have experienced it, and posted on Friday:-


    Gordo, and his various mouthpieces (Shaun Woodward on QT last night) quote the alleged reduction in net immigration brought about by the points system. Apart from the use of weazel words such as 'NET immigration' and 'a reduction in the RATE of increase' to hide the real impact of the continued flood of immigration, a description of the points system might be helpful (openness and transparency anybody?).

    Having won 3 Immigration Appeals against Student Visa Refusals for training in NVQ2/3 in Health & Social Care, I am aware that a Tier 4 Student visa requires the award of 40 points. These points do not require an interview of the student (on-line application in many non-EU countries) or any individual evaluation and grading of each applicant's suitability. The 40 points 'awarded' consist of:-
    30 points - for a letter of acceptance from a registered school; and
    10 points - for proof of adequate funds for fees and maintenance.
    (Why not just state these two criteria rather than an attempt to imply an individual evaluation in points?)
    The 10 points require a bank statement from the student applicant showing enough to cover the fares, fees and maintenance of £600/month (£800 for London)and must have been in the bank at least 28 days before application. Obviously, most students must rely on sponsors to deposit these substantial amounts, and I have often asked why sponsors are not subject to more scrutiny.
    This 'points system' for students naturaly resulted in a rash of schools anxious to get the fees (Deposit £500 non-refundable + approx £2400 per study year).
    I visited several and found minimum facilities for study (18 hours a week minimum required by law, but many accept just 1 day/week) and the school should provide a maximum of 20 hours appropriate workplace attachment(care homes).
    My visits indicated that many schools seem to be owned/managed/staffed by those who were once themselves immigrants (entrepreneurs?).
    Too little and too late thousands of such 'schools' were closed down. Subsequently, many schools can no longer place students in work experience, whilst others have been 'temporarily suspended' usually because they were accepting too many 'students'.
    Last year's police raids found 'students' who had rarely or never attended the 'schools' and it is obvious that neither the schools nor most employers bother to check whether their 'students' are working more than the 20 hour/week maximum; naturally the minimum wage is an incentive to employ students, often not giving normal contract requirements such as overtime rates; and some students use 2 employers, thus obtaining 40 hours of work per week.
    The effect on 'British Jobs for British Workers' is obvious. Which may leave some questioning why I, as an indignant indegene, win immigration appeals and bring 'foreign' immigrants here. The simple answer is that if you can't beat a system then might as well 'lay back, think of England (as I once knew it) and enjoy it' My efforts to improve the life of 3 relatives is a drop in the ocean engulfing this nation's culture.

  • Comment number 93.

    #90 brightyangthing "So I think from this, we can deduce that we share a similar respect for the Queen and the balance she manages to attain."

    Apologies for the intrusion, which I thought appropriate as I also had the honour of an invitation to Buck Palace. Having no possible 'common' ground for conversation with HM the Queen, I spoke with HRH Prince Philip as he was then Patron of British Sub-Aqua Club, as was Charles later. I have some admiration for both Philip and Charles for their readiness to comment on certain issues, although often controversial and non-pc. However, although obviously hard-working, HM the Queen seems too remote to use any power that her role as Head of State should provide.

    I love the pomp and pageantry that goes with the monarchy, but surely in these times when the population has utter disregard for our 'elected' voice, we should expect some comment from the Head of State - other than the acceptance and reading out of 'the Queen's Speech' now pre-emptied, and her (government recommended?) puny objection to the use of Winston Churchill's photo by BNP? Is it democratic, or value for money?

  • Comment number 94.

    Fancy Gordie making an announcement yesterday or today, whenever, that he will be apologising next year to all those children that had been shifted to Australia only to find themselves enslaved and the like,etc
    Another joke, or what?

  • Comment number 95.

    #69 & #74


    I have now browsed through more images of the Millenium Point and the surroundings. They well worth having a look at with some really amazing snaps in there. The one that you recommend reminds of a shark's jaw for some reason, but not as frightening in any way, just the shape.

    The Barber Gallery looks really beautiful and what an amazing collection of masterpieces they seem to have in there and so does the Edwardian Tea Room which reminds a bit of Hampton Court dining area where I once dined with a selection of brain surgeons to close off a neurosurgery meeting that's held around the world on a 6-monthly basis.

    I like this type of English, or should I say British, architecture, seemingly simple and restrained in decor and yet elegant and pleasing to the eye.

    I'm much obliged to you for all these links, Streetphotobeing


  • Comment number 96.


    Glad you made that point IDG2. As I have made clear: we have little time left* for revolution, and only an unconstitutional move by the Monarch, or a military coup (disaffected top brass leading sorely abused squaddies) it seems to me, can rescue this country.

    *Soon the EU cancer will eat our vitals, dismantle monarchy, and add a layer of command to the armed forces. Game set and match.

  • Comment number 97.

    #93 Indignantingenene

    ‘......Apologies for the intrusion,’

    Of course you may. Delighted I’m sure.

    ‘....I have some admiration for both Philip and Charles for their readiness to comment on certain issues, although often controversial and non-pc.’

    Ditto. I determine it possible yet that due to GBP plc Charles may yet be the best King we never had!

    Without going into some of the issues I see surrounding his first marriage, and in no way giving legitimacy (pun intended) to adultery within marriage I think a happy or contented leader better than one miserable with no one to share his passions. Obvious from the start.

    Shame they couldn’t have called an annulment based on her ‘taking’ the wrong man in the wedding ceremony!

    If only Diana had been better briefed (and supported) on what she could and should not expect things may have been different. One way or another – broken engagement soon forgotten, but history tells another story. The grandest conspiracy theory MUST show who the greatest benefactor of the crash in a Paris tunnel was (Ooh controversial!)

    The role of the Monarch has been eroded into a mere (if not unattractive) pomp an pageantry ceremonial role. I have great admiration (any regular reading of the court circular should give a similar result) for the hard work put into such a role by the Queen DofE, PoW, PR and a few others. Like senior politicians. May not agree with the outcome but cannot fault the input.

    No question the Royal family are still fantastic value for money.

  • Comment number 98.


    Some might say of my #96: "They can't do that". But the Lisbon treaty is 'self expanding' - NOW thy can do ANYTHING.

  • Comment number 99.

    #92 & #93
    the indignant one

    I am afraid you've got it wrong. It's not within Queen's remit to hunt down the traitors of this country and that's why I have contacted the Secret Services, as per some of my posts from yesterday. Although the current government is largely in total disarray and Gordon Brown doesn't exactly know what he is doing and what he keeps agreeing to do by the suspected traitors, and the Parliament in a bit of a mess, resolving the Parliament would not help. On the contrary, it would cause even more chaos in this country which is exactly what the traitors are up to. Traitors expecting big, big dosh coming their way and deposited with a Swiss Bank.

    Think carefully before you start accusing the Queen of anything although obviously this is a democracy and you are allowed to speak out as you please.

  • Comment number 100.

    89 Brightyoungthing

    Dr Who

    Have got designs for time relocation technology though, would love to get the resources to try it out. (Have results from research that indicates it does work).


Page 1 of 2

BBC © 2014 The BBC is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.

This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.