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Tuesday 21 July 2009

Verity Murphy | 16:44 UK time, Tuesday, 21 July 2009

Here's what is coming up on tonight's programme:

From Kirsty Wark:

The former editor of The News of The World, Andy Coulson, now a key advisor to David Cameron, has told MPs he has never condoned the use of phone hacking, and that he made it clear to his staff that they should not use subterfuge unless there was a clear public interest.

Mr Coulson resigned as the editor of the paper after its royal editor and a private detective were jailed for phone hacking, but it has been alleged that a long list of celebrities and sports stars came in for the same treatment.

So what does the fact that Mr Coulson knew nothing about all this say about his powers of discipline? Should he be the opposition leader's right hand man?

We have an exclusive film about the practice of polygamy in the UK - a number of British Muslims are 'marrying' multiple wives in unregistered religious ceremonies.

We speak to one woman (anonymously) who fled a polygamous marriage and another Muslim woman who actively sought a polygamous marriage.

Should it be outlawed? Baroness Warsi tells Newsnight the government is turning a blind eye to the practice.

And today Ben Bernanke the Federal Reserve Chairman said the outlook for the long suffering US economy appears to be improving, but he cautioned that unemployment was also likely to remain high until 2011 and that this could sap fragile consumer confidence.

But the big story would appear to be that the stimulus package is not kick-starting the economy in the way that Barack Obama hoped.

David Grossman gets the reaction in Washington.

Do join us for all that and more at 10.30pm on BBC Two.


  • Comment number 1.

    "But the big story would appear to be that the stimulus package is not kick-starting the economy in the way that Barack Obama hoped."

    I guess the alleged venal behaviour of Goldman-Sachs can't be helping matters much?

  • Comment number 2.


    NN may have wedged it between their lead story and what they refer to as 'the big story' (USA finances)tonight but, as an indigenous citizen of this degenerating society, I have to focus again on the item that illustrates yet again the extent to which alien cultures have been introduced into our society and the government (and most other parties) seem unconcerned. As they have allowed some 35 sharia courts to set up in UK, passing laws contrary to those on the statute book that are (mainly) the product of democratic process, how can this now be halted?

    As someone observed when an about-turn was done allowing homosexuality:
    "I'm getting out of here before it becomes mandatory".

  • Comment number 3.

    G20 and the Global Ecological Imperative

    Which can be copied and pasted in your Google search, was published in Paul Mason's blog in November.

    It is part of the understanding of the double dip recession from last year.

    Double dips are relative to the input and outputs. 'Not kick starting' is a dip compared to the response expected for resource input.

    NN could have discussed why the stimulus package would not work last year.

    The post is here with diagram

  • Comment number 4.

    Dear Ms Wark

    May I as a viewer ask a question of your guest tonight? ie What is your deeper motivation? Why do you not advocate stealing, lying, cheating etc? this may sound a strange question to ask, but I'm curious what motivates people. Do some people only not do certain things out of fear of prosecution? If it is not the old beak, what else motivates a person not to do something that is wrong in other people's eyes but may bring short term immediate gains, such as a 'well done' from the boss?

    This might seem like an extreme example to illustrate a general point, but the Stasi for example didnt need to pay some of their informers for their dirty work. Their motivation for stabbing their fellow citizens in the back was simply that it gave them a 'sense of belonging'.

    In the workplace in this country (some) people will do the dirty on those they work with for almost no reason at all,


    What is our deeper motivation? What is Mr Coulson's deeper motivation?
    What makes him tick?

    all the best

  • Comment number 5.

    I suppose Coulson was employed by the tories so they could learn how to communicate with the masses. The News of The World and The Sun are mainly read because they are soft porn and maybe deep down thats all the tories are.

  • Comment number 6.

    As the editor of a magazine he should have known where his journalist were getting and how they were getting their information. Obviously, for people to be jailed over this, the information these hacks were getting must have been pretty serious too. The first question I as a publisher ask my journalists is where did you get this. Clearly his judgement is questionable and I thing anyone employing him as a right hand man should also have his judgement called into question.

  • Comment number 7.

    just a follow up to my earlier question;

    perhaps the interview could go something like this?

    Q-Mr Coulson, do you have a price?
    Q- if someone offered you £10,000 to do something wrong. would you do it
    Q- what if they offered you £1million?
    if the answer is an affirmative, then he has a price?

    if he is prepared to do something if the price is right, then what would he do, and not do?,
    if he isn't, back to the earlier line of questions ie what is the basis of his morality, what he is prepared to do and not do and why, ie his deeper motivation,

    and what is mine flashes through my mind as I write this!

    best wishes

  • Comment number 8.

    What do you mean "Should" polygamy be outlawed? Polygamy IS outlawed in this country. The question is "Should people be allowed to flout the law of the land by waving the religion card (again)?" and the answer is NO. Not ever.

  • Comment number 9.

  • Comment number 10.

    I imagine that Newsnight will be apologising to the licence fee payer for pushing this non-story about Mr Coulson.

    Seriously, the BBC have behaved as though they were part of the Labour party, which is very revealing when the Guardian (the original pushers of this non-story) admitted last week that they had no evidence.

    Poor judgement by the BBC to try and smear this man, and a tactic which I thought was more in the style of a Mr McBride, who ironically enough was allowed plenty of airtime this weekend on the BBC to claim that Mr Brown knew nothing of Mr McBrides disgusting smear campaign.

  • Comment number 11.

    Your obsession with the Coulson story is getting desperate, there is nothing in it so give up. I know the BBC is desperate to stop the Conservatives winning the next election but you will have to do a lot better than a non story about somebody that nobody has heard of.

  • Comment number 12.

    aniciapoet (#8) Very good. But it isn't illegal for one person to live with two or more women/men, it's just illegal to marry two or more women/men. That's the problem here (in Muslim relationships) as I understand it. It's a badly written leader though.

  • Comment number 13.

    Thanks for your comments. To be honest, both NewFazer's and JJ's postings are full of mumbo jumbo gibberish. They may be associated to BNP but they may also be moles/agents in other organisations, not only British. I suspect their motives could be classified as very banal if only they weren't at the same time so sinister in practice. Methinks not 'they' have any chance in achieving their 'dream' objective. Well, let's put it more bluntly - there's no fat chance for their essentially sentimental dreams to come true. The light has shone - duped or not duped.

  • Comment number 14.

    En plus, it's amazing what poor quality chatting can achieve! Like letting mice out of the bag, for example.

  • Comment number 15.

    mimpromptu (#14) "it's amazing what poor quality chatting can achieve! Like letting mice out of the bag, for example."

    Bats in the belfry?

  • Comment number 16.

    But the real story is that Muslim men can now claim benefits and housing for four wives and the multiple kids!!!! And apart from the 'fraud' on the average taxpayer (who often themselves put off having kids through lack of income and decent housing etc), there is a problem re equalities in that this 'incentive' affects a 'wife' who may have ideas of getting a job and becoming independent! 'Him indoors is not going to like that is he as it will knock a hole into 'his' 'income' .
    Also, a muslim woman neighbour where i live, with four kids is part of a harem whose 'husband' lives in Belgium (the official story is he has to look after his mother there). He has left his brother there to guard her, who is alsom most likely on benefits too. I had to go to a 'mediation' meeting with her because I could not deal with the family noise from beneath me. She told me this during the meeting being fairly innocent to the implications. Also, the council inadvertently told me that she was a 'single mother'. When I said it is not likely as muslim women do not have babies out of wedlock and she had had four in five years. They just shrugged!
    As an ex labour voter - but not yet BNP - but can see why people go that way - I no longer have any idea how to vote given our voting system. I believe this government will do anything to please the muslims as they hold the balance of power in a lot of areas now- hence the 'postal voting' scandal.... ha ha ha! I would vote lib dem if Vince Cable was leader and of course Green if we had proportional representation.

  • Comment number 17.

    its sad to see the desperation on sky news to kill the story. they can't pretend anymore they are better than fox news.

    what has the guardian not named the journalists? if they were anyone else but holy hacks they would have been no such 'restraint'?

  • Comment number 18.

    Can't you invite someone interesting on to discuss the Global 'fraud' economy situation? I recommend Max Keiser on this subject who would liven up Newsnight and BBC no end - he also makes sense and uses ordinary language.

  • Comment number 19.


    Hey Madame Mim - nothing in the post for me? I want to be tarred with JJ and Fazer please (hold the feathers).

    "Let me go with them. I can do gibberish - I can do gibberish perfectly."

  • Comment number 20.

    #9 Mistress76uk

    Thank you for even worse news! I can only suggest that Gof1, and others who seem to be unconcerned about the deteriorating state of our society, should study the links you provided - together with the comments posted thereon - to understand why support grows for BNP.

    With so much hatred being preached and practiced openly against our way of life by people who abuse our hospitality, having contributed nothing, we need the one political party that speaks out against the anti-Brtish racists and extremists in our midst.

    I still maintain that a form of National Service should be introduced to expose those who would refuse to seve the country in which they live.
    From 1950 to 1963 over 2 million men donned uniform under National Service and many believe it made men of us through discipline and camaraderie: a large number acquired a trade. A 2-year stint now would provide an alternative to the anticipated 'lost generation' of 16-24 year-olds who will otherwise remain unemployed (and later unemployable) during this crisis time of rising unemployment.

    It should be based more on civic than military service and should be welcomed by those who seek to promote Equality of Capability.

  • Comment number 21.

    Sorry, I missed the start of the programme tonight. Who is the american guy speaking about the American stimulus package? He seem ed to be speak a lot of sense.

  • Comment number 22.

    barrie (#19) If you think there's folly there, just look over here.

    It doesn't bode well.

  • Comment number 23.

    On tonight's edition, the reknowned economist Professor Stiglitz was consistently described as a 'Noble Prize Winner' in the caption with his name. I really think this is an atrocious spelling mistake; the Nobel Prize is the world's most prestigious prize. That this error was ever made, let alone went unspotted throughout the programme, is in my opinion a disgrace for Newsnight.

  • Comment number 24.

    @#20 - Indignantindegene - I'm amazed that the ECHR is allowing the Sharia Law courts to be used within the EU! Isn't a breach of Human Rights to have Sharia law in place? Perhaps we can write to Brussels and demand a stop to it.

    On the issue of national service, it may not be a bad idea. Many countries have a national service system (in Greece & Cyprus it's 2 years for men, and in Israel it's 3 years for men and 1 year for women)- it does encourage people of all walks of life to bond, and in time of any national emergency, at least there will be some people who are properly trained to fight.

  • Comment number 25.

    What on earth is this government doing. There seems to be one law for Muslims who can get away with taking on more wives hiding under Islamic law. Yet if an English person does it they are jailed under UK law. If Muslims want to have that Sharia law then let them go live in Saudia or some such Islamic country. PC has gone to the absurd. We are going back into a dark age!!!!!

  • Comment number 26.

    As a Muslim (English Convert)I am appalled at the comment by the BBC and other Muslims on this evenings Newsnight report.
    Multiple marriage was encourage by our Prophet Muhammed because of war and the need in such times to 'mop up' needing families that were left without a leading male member of the household and the wage earner.
    No 'Islamic Scholar' spoke this evening over than backward, ignorant subcontinental muslims, who quite frankly interpret Islam in their own curios fashion.
    When the toleance of a community and nation such as Britain is streched to the limit, surely it is time for these far fetched, uneducated communities to decide where they should live. The tolerant neighbourhoods of Britain or the 'freedom to worship' neighbourhoods of the east.

  • Comment number 27.

    I wonder how the Muslim men would feel if their wife decided to take a second husband? They would not accept this. I know a few Muslim men who treat their wives like second rate citizens. I don't have a problem with any religion but when people use it to release themselves from the harm they do I do not think it is right. What about so called honour killings ?

  • Comment number 28.

    Yes, Noble or Nobel?? We need an explanation and the person who made the mistake should be sent back to BBC school - or sacked it is a bit pathetic n'est-ce pas?

  • Comment number 29.

    Polly Gimmee 2 Wives

    2 Examples or is it One

    We have at present an Idiot/clown/and more besides having a wonderfull time in Nick along with 2 of its Idiot/clown sons in a similar place. The Idiots name is captain hook/aBOO ham sa. (pig meat)

    Who's The Idiot? (not me I dont/wont Pay tax, Against my human rights)

    The very Clever clown has 2 wives 2 houses has never worked a day in its life has conspired with nulabour 2 try and murder one of my offspring
    and you sucker/idiots in the Uk pay for it/him.

    nulabour/bbc/blair brown cambell wants me 2 work and pay tax 2 feed/house/cloth/educate all of the above, HO HO HO

    Bob Hope, Antelope, Envelope Periscope, what A Dope, NoT A Bloody Hope

    Cut My Head Off Bayonet Me in, The Chest, Never. I Aint Paying For ANY Of The Above. Idiot Brown one Jail Me

  • Comment number 30.

    How old is Mistress76uk?
    I fully agree that this may be a way to solving many of our society' current issues.
    Pontificating has done nothing for this government or the last and I doubt the next!

  • Comment number 31.

    I forgot! Somalia seems to need guidance in all its affairs. Why not do 'Jihad' their and encourage Islamic law and order, within the Shariah of Islam.
    Many muslims seem to feel free to talk openly of the benefits of Islam while forgetting that many western armies are protecting a 'free' and yet to be democratic society in Afghanistan. I do wish these ideological and sentimental muslims would be willing to lay down their lives to protect the minimum of human rights that are being abused daily across muslim communities in Britain.

    British intolerance is drying up!

  • Comment number 32.

    @ #30 - what's my age got to do with anything?????

  • Comment number 33.

    #19 Barrie


    Barrie please stop angling for position. The thread started from Mim with a broadside at me. JJ came in and then New Fazer came in with a quote of Mims about me.

    Sorry but I am not going to to link and reference. If you can't follow the thread without me back referencing, ehh eh stay out of the kitchen.

    I have apologised to Mim, but still stand by my position. I will not recount a word.

    I have acknowledged Go1. As yet Go1 has not yet damned my concern over the unnecessary deaths of 40,000 children a day and the suffering, distress and extinction of the 60 million over species of animal and plant we 'should share' this planet with.

    (I feel as a deep ecologist, if I need to be labelled, I have made my position clear on this). indignantindegene did reply to my position into this. I do not want to drag him into this, but would ask his position is that as a neutral referee, who can acknowledge my ecological stance.

    Note to Go1, Attack me as a deep ecologist, not as a member of the BNP. I am not a member of the BNP. Society would label me as an ecologist, so attack me as a deep ecologist. At least then I can defend my position as something I would be happy to be associated with, rather than something which is imagined.

    I was labelled a 'naughty boy' of this blog. Along with Barrie, JJ and brossen99. The later has kept a dignified silence.

    New Fazer then came in with a defence.

    Therefore Barrie, I respectfully ask you step aside in the queue, and allow me to be tarred and feathered first. Though I am not happy with the waste of hydrocarbon resources or the death of winged life forms also involved.

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 34.

    Good grief this country is going to the dogs. How the hell in this day and age does anyone have more than one wife at a time in this country? I expect someone will pop up with, what about all the divorced and single parents here. Well we all know they're divorced or being supported by the state, but this is totally underhand. We know nothing of the muslim community rapidly growing in our midst, I read of the 85 sharia courts a while ago. But this ruddy government are absolutely useless, can't wait to see the back of them, and like another poster I'm wondering who the to vote for!

    If you want to live under sharia law go to a country that practices it, instead of changing MY country!

    And I don't notice the human rights crowd shouting about the appaling treatment of women, where are the ECHR when you need them.

  • Comment number 35.


    I look forward to a World dominated by China, could Newsnight have more of a balance of commentators from around the World?

    I try not to get too angry when I hear commentators from the US blithely saying that they cannot afford (more like will not afford) the Healthcare reforms

    Uh? what sort of modern society doesnt have universal healthcare for all its citizens?

    The US has some very strong plusses but would be a stronger society if it had proper healthcare,

    best wishes, peace to all

  • Comment number 36.

    #20 Indignantindegene

    Great idea to bring back national service to resolve the jobless youth situation but I'm afraid it would be unsucessful as a method of indentifying those who have no loyalty to this country. Why? The big 'three' parties not only accept but foster this climate of anti-Englishness and would make certain these people would be able to claim 'unsuitability for service' based on their religious beliefs.

    If you think poligamy is bad, talk to people in the NHS who dare to speak about the number of little girls having their genitalia mutilated by doctors (unofficially of course and in keeping with their cultural practices)and paid for with our taxes! These are the type of things that happen quite naturally in a goverment supported 'multi-cultural' country where no limits have been set and no 'core values' expressed.

    The beliefs and values of the English people (meaning those who actually want to be English regardless of where they come from) no longer hold any value in this country. Most of the people I meet are stuck between extreme anger and despair over this issue and the politicians just turn a blind eye. Many are immigrants who thought they were escaping to a country where they would be safe from these extreme practices and sadly most are women who are prevented from sharing their views publicly. How do we stop this?

  • Comment number 37.

    2 For You Gordon or is it one

    Met 2 Wonderfull Chinamen yesterday they sold me 9 Packets O Baccy 50 Grams Each.

    How Much Go On Ask Me.

    30 Quid which means I have saved over 70 Quid.

    Which Means in A Turn thats 70 quid that dosnt end up in your Gungy/Grubby/Stupid/Nail Bitten mitts.

    VicTory is Vickstory (I thought you would Like that)

  • Comment number 38.

    Is Vic There?

  • Comment number 39.

    I am a tad puzzled. Post-war construction, the need for immigrant workers, polygamy in the Muslim community...when did it all go so completely wrong?...the Endurance levels of the English is quite staggering but its reports like the Polygamy story on tonight's newsnight that's gonna kill moderate politics for good in this country. No amount of "when in Rome" a way of checking the settled outsiders manners and customs...that's now swept away. Its More like the Roman having a butchers at the Tiber, witnessing its flow foaming with the red stuff..."is that claret i see before me?" ..yes! its the fruits born of multicultralism. ah well, you were warned.

  • Comment number 40.


    It is great to hear a Muslim speak out openly about this with the same sense of disgust and betrayal that many of us feel. This is the dilemma though on the political front. Unless we gather together and create a new party, the BNP who is fighting for much of what we want is also sadly still dwelling on purely racist non-issues like skin colour and heritage instead of concentrating on the real differences which are entirely about culture, customs, and values. The other parties avoid the issue because anyone who speaks out is immediately branded a racist. The big three sit back comfortably because the voting system is so unfair that one of them is pretty much guaranteed to win. A peaceful revolution is needed and soon.

  • Comment number 41.


    Why do so many posters always despair at the lack of choice in who to vote for'.

    Do children play games of Asquith, Nixon, Wilson or Heath.

    Who are the Heroes or fact or fantasy? King Arthur, Robin Hood, William Wallace or Boadicea? These are the leaders of aspiration.

    Now Churchill was elected. But how many actually know that. Churchill is known and remembered as a leader. The fact that he was elected has somehow been forgotten. That he won an election, but lost one in Dundee, in lost in the fog of history.

    How many children play games of Pitt, Chirac, Merkel and Truman?

    Why are we told that democracy ends conflict, but also told we must fight for democracy. Perhaps we should resurrect the 1.3 million dead in Iraq and ask them was it worth dying to give a politician a job.

    The politicians and the media tell us democracy is about voting for politicians to represent us. Strangely this is not what the dictionary says. Democracy there is government by the people OR their elected representatives.

    Who are these bizarre people from history. Alexander the Great and Genghis Khan. They had this strange idea. When they conquered somewhere and got rid of who was ever ruling. They made sure the conditions the people lived under were better than those they had before. No insurgency or rebellion.

    So people are disillusioned by politics and politicians and don't know who to vote for. Think. Hitler, Bush (either), Blair, Brown, elected. (sorry I have made a mistake with one).

    Alexander, Boudicca, King Arthur, Gandalf, Robin Hood, Patton (General not Chris), Nelson, William Wallace, Maximus Decimus. Couldn't muster a single vote amongst the lot of 'em.

    Democracy don't you love it. Or do you?

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 42.

    As both the BBC Homepage and so many of the Newsnight bloggers have been so preoccupied with the subject of dreaming this week, please may I be allowed to post the following:

    From today's BBC Homepage

    Auguste Rodin dreamt pictures of his finest sculptures in advance. Paul McCartney dreamt the tune of 'Yesterday'. Mendeleyev dreamt the structure of the Periodic Table.

    Why does the eye see a thing more clearly in dreams than the mind while awake? LEONARDO DA VINCI

    - as great as Leonardo da Vinci was, I think it's one of those generalisations which does not amount to a tautology. For example, many a man dreamt of having sleeping with Brigitte Bardot but how many of them actually did? And with Marilyn Monroe?

    Duped or not duped? This is the question.
    But who is the duped? Let's make a suggestion.
    Is it the mouse? Or is it the bear?
    The button pusher? Or the virginal fair?

    Who is in charge? - Rascal enquires.
    Let's wait and see when robot backfires.
    No shooting envisaged, or physical force.
    Dreams rather what may be their loss.

  • Comment number 43.

    KingCelticLion (#33) "Barrie please stop angling for position. The thread started from Mim with a broadside at me. JJ came in and then New Fazer came in with a quote of Mims about me."

    You've missed his point.

  • Comment number 44.

    #36 Westsurreygirl, I'm so pleased you mentioned genital mutilation. How many little girls this summer holiday will be taken to a "doctor" either here or abroad to have all their "bits" cut off. Isn't it wonderful to think that women here fought for the vote, and generally tried to improve womens position, only to have it dragged back to primitive times by incomers. When will a government here do anything to protect these girls and women, and not blame it all on customs, religion, human rights and multiculturism.

  • Comment number 45.


    One of the interesting things to look into further is the cost to the state/taxpayer of those living in 'marriages' with say 3 wives and 14 children. Just how viable/common is it to live off child/housing/income support/benefit? What do the husbands do to 'earn' their incomes to support their families?

  • Comment number 46.

    Addendum (#45) Full investigative journalism here risks provoking racial conflict. To the best of my knowledge, these 'marriages' seem to be skewed towards the much older S.Asian immigrants, not 2nd, 3rd generation males. This would suggest that it's relatively rare. What's missing here are useful ststistics to put the scale of the problem into perspective Newsnight. Is this problem significantly more of a problem than illegal non Mulsim polygamy? Does the government 'turn a blind eye' because of its low frequency?

  • Comment number 47.

    #46 Jean on the programme the lawyer said young men are increasingly taking more than one wife, this was men born here as well I believe. I think they pointed out that the modern version was to have a wife working in the city and another at home to care for the children. If this was all out in the open perhaps the rest of us could do the same, and childcare problems would be solved. I think we ignore all these "foreign" ways because it doesn't occur to us in a "western civilised" country it is happening.

    The way Baroness Warsi was talking she thought it was a much larger problem than the government realise. I'm sick to death of religion taking precedence over the law. I know you will argue our law is based on christianity, but when did any of us take any notice of that?! You make a very good point in #45, British young people can't afford to have one child, because of our ridiculous house prices. So the muslim families must live on the state, and if they have four wives I expect they have twenty children, not a bad little earner. Although the modern muslim arrangement appears to have part of the marriage working and part at home.

  • Comment number 48.

    ecolizzy (#47) "#46 Jean on the programme the lawyer said young men are increasingly taking more than one wife, this was men born here as well I believe."

    Thanks for pointing that out. I'm only watching the programme this morning and still have most of this part of it to watch.

    The 'Jewish Problem' in the 19th Century was based around the fact that they were an andogamous group which had their own laws but wished to live amongst others who had laws which were different (e.g. usury laws). It was always a formula for conflict. The same is the case with Muslims. I can see both sides to this. People rationalise to preserve their status quo whilst seeking the benefits which their new community affords. I don't think many see how and why what they do causes so much resentment/conflict. This, of course, is where intelligence comes in, and as I keep saying, education is not the answer.

    I'm always wary of basing too much on what authoritative people 'think'. I'd like to see some figures based on good sampling.

  • Comment number 49.

    Leo could I have your opinion on this please.... Surely the answer is we all learn not to use our cars so much, look how obesity would fall. And how about not flying everywhere around the world on a whim? I can see ourselves starving, but that's ok, we can still drive, and fly anywhere we want. OOhhh I've just had an afterthought, we'd soon lose weight without food! ; )

  • Comment number 50.

    To the Newsnight Team: Polygamy UK. You need to cover this story properly: e.g.What has the Trevor Philips and CRE and Equalities got to say about all this - especially as women cannot take 4 husbands, and moreover, as polygamy leave women vulnerable and with no hope of independence from the 'husband' As I said in an earlier posting, it could be a nice little earner by 'him indoors' that he would not want to give up would he? and how many council flats to these people/families get? also, we need to hear from the benefits dept on their polygamy payout policy? I am overseas so cannot watch the programme so please keep me up with the nitty gritty etc...
    That Britain's infamous 'working poor' (50% tax in total is taken from all workers) people who themselves cannot afford decent housing,cannot get on the list for 'lack of points' and cannot afford children, should be required to pay for this 'secret' polygamy deal is simply intolerable! It is Multiculturalism gone mad?! Also a view from the 'taxpayers' alliance would be interesting. Labour take note: I believe it was this type of unsustainable policy that led to Le Pen's rise in South of France - also to Sarcosy being elected. FRench are famously liberal but many feel they are asked too much by those at the top who share nothing themsleves... the same in Uk. Those labourites (I am ex so I know them well) are usually well heeled and able to access all they need without having to share their space, via high earnings. They have high fences around their homes rather than being feeling squashed in a council flat between people who have no incentive or desire to integrate and who have other agendas, laws and customs. It is not 'romantic' multiculturism when you have to live cheek by jowl. I feel most sorry for our elderly who are more isolated as a result of this 'experiment' and who have no money to get out and away from it all. It is the all encompassing Muslim thing that separates us so hopelessy and which will be the death of us. E.G. I once tried inviting a muslim woman neighbour in - so as to be friendly but the MEN in her flat/life forbade it. Who are the racists anyway?

  • Comment number 51.

    Sorry I'm going off on tangents today.. Leo another one for you, this is what happens in poor countries, with plastic bottles etc. Now how about this for recycling, don't think it will catch on with the local council, do you?

    I said I thought burning plastics gave off harmful fumes

    No you don't burn it. You chop it up very fine like a powder almost. Then cook it in oil; any sort of oil, old car oil, old cooking oil etc. When this mixture is boiling it is poured into molds and that is basically it. Incredibly simple and effective. But alot of chopped plastic is needed to make any sizeable plastic thing.

    I commented surely this is a very dangerous practice, fire etc. and the resulting plastic would be unsafe for food or drink containers

    Well of course boiling oil is pretty hot and dangerous. But it is not a chemical hazard. The resulting plastic is usually fashioned into slabs or rods or some other molded pieces.

    Pity more of us aren't aware about how other less fortunate countries try to find things do with with waste plastic.

  • Comment number 52.

    The Butcher's Bill (There's Allways A Butcher's Bill)

    The Swine Flew In The Swine Can Fly Out.

    2 brown the clown whats the Bill

    2 Idiots yourself and A Boo (cpt hook)

    itself and its 2 sons in the Glasshouse cost 90 + grand a year, its 2 wives and and 2 houses say another 100 grand + your Stupid wages/pension/expences/etc. 2 much.

    please sign me up for paying your Stupid taxxes. NOT

    MEAN A while pensioners Starve/Freeze 2 Death in Winter.

    You and Your Stupid nulabour/blair did that all by your Stupid Selves

  • Comment number 53.

    was paul mason beamed up to the mother ship? Paul and his chair vanished but his notes and glass of water remained?

    'polygamy' [unregistered marriage] is on the increase because the benefits system supports it. in law its just the same as unmarried single mothers? and muslims have no monopoly on accepting that idea?

    its about access to the benefits system because they know they don't have to look after the kids etc.

    which is no different to the attitude of non muslim kids.

  • Comment number 54.

    Can someone explain why Polygamy in the UK is outlawed whilst Adultery is not? Do I understand it correctly that if a politician is married to a woman for 10 odd years and cheats on her, and has a mistress for 5 years this is OK and considered a personal issue but if he marries this mistress and gives her the same rights (inheritance etc) of the first wife this is considered barbaric? Can someone explain this to me?



  • Comment number 55.

    there's probably more helicopters in this than the uk has in helmund?

  • Comment number 56.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 57.

    To Muhammad no 54. Your analogy does not wash! I have had plenty of experience of Muslim males and their adultery. The vicious Islamic punishments (that you are all so keen on) are not metered out to them though are they? And if you say that Polygamy is such a good idea then why can't a woman take 4 husbands and claim benefits for them in her own right (i.e pocket the benefit money and clear off and leave him and the kids guarded by a sister - like a Male Muslim I know does in reverse of course). What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander etc... Your religion is the most hypocritical of all. I was told that the man can only have 4 wives IF HE CAN SUPPORT THEM - NOT IF THEY ARE ALL SUPPORTED BY THE POOR BRITISH LOW PAID TAXPAYER - Yes all religions
    are HYPOCRITICAL... Luckily I am a 'christian' green atheist - SOMETIMES PAGAN. So put that in your pipe and smoke it. In peace!

  • Comment number 58.

    if it works for the royals the muslims are on safe ground!

  • Comment number 59.

    To pithywriter, No 57

    I'm not sure how a religion per se could be hypocritical, the definition of the word doesn't fit. A distinction should be made between the concept and the action. Many, if not most (including myself) Muslims, like people of other faiths, fail to live up to the ideals of the religion or way of life they espouse. Many secularists will have values that they themselves will not live up to.
    As for the issue of penal judegments, then they should apply equally to both sexes. I don't see Islam implemented anywhere in the world politically so I agree their will be some injustice in the implementation in places.

    As to why Women cannot marry more than one and men cannot then this is a theological question. If I understand what you are saying, then basically you are saying that men and women should only be allowed to practice that religion which agrees with the wishes of others. If a consenting man and woman agree to a polygamous relationship surely that should be OK? The alternative is for the relationship to be adulterous. Is that preferable?


  • Comment number 60.

    53 Bookhimdano except of course a single mum is free (or has freed herself) often from a bullying husband who has to accept it. whereas her counterpart in a polygamous 'marriage' will never be free - not truly free unless she goes into hiding. My Pakistani muslim woman friend is almost 60 and she is still, after years, hiding from her family etc for having the guts to leave her vile marriage.
    And to leftie odd bod - do you find this polygamy P. C./ 'romantic' and perhaps would like it yourself Huh? Yes, the royal family system is vile too as most of Europe decided when they downgraded their eminence or did away with them.... It will happen here too eventually.
    Our poor ancestors fought hard for 'liberty equality and fraternity'. just read our social history. We do not want to give it up for the sake of saving (votes)for the likes of Gordon Brown. thanks

  • Comment number 61.

    59 Muhammad. you are waffling. be clear about exactly what you want, What punishments you are into, what you are doing here, your agenda and why you support polygamy funded by poor people via the benefits system. The difference between religious people and atheists/agnostics is that the latter, whilst supporting an ordered society, are not keen on nasty punishments and judgements of others. We would rather encourage our children to be free thinking so that they will grow up strong and do the right thing without fear of a bogyman god. You guys just need to get your head around the fact that "above us is only sky" and that there is "no hell below us" and that this earth is the only heaven there is. It is a mystery that cannot be explained by religion. There was no life before your birth and there is none after your death - so let and let live.

  • Comment number 62.

    maismail (#59) "As to why Women cannot marry more than one and men cannot then this is a theological question."

    It may be becasue females are always sure of passing on their genes to their offspring whilst males are not. There is a basic, important asymmetry between the sexes. More need to take this on board.

    As to your original point. It's a fair question. People are inconsistent in their thinking and behaviour. Their brains are made this fragmented way. It's why we have laws which we have to comply with regardless of whether we 'agree' with them or not. The problem today is the laws are too complex for most people, so they ignore many of them.

    The point about benefit abuse is also a sound one though, and it's an argument for Identity Cards and much else besides to ensure fairness in what little remains of our 'social welfare' system, or else, we wil see the end of the welfare state. It looks like that's going to be the case alas, and that portends a very non Islamic, i.e Jewish, culture, I fear.

  • Comment number 63.

    #59 So why maismail come to britain at all to live? If people want to follow their own laws, religion, dress, family set up, why bother coming to a country that they already know doesn't agree with their views? I think because of our stupid government people are fooled into believing we have no culture, no laws, no protection of women, and they can carry on as if still in their home country.

    I'm an atheist, although brought up a christian, so I suppose those values have stuck to some extent. I think most british people gave up on mumbo jumbo religion donkeys years ago. It doesn't mean I'm an immoral person, but it appears immoral to me to have more than one wife at a time, in this country. I don't think there's enough women here to go around to provide british men with several wives, hence muslim ones coming here from abroad, in arranged marriages. I realise in the desert or jungle (and that's not being vicisious) it is necessary to have lots of wives to do all the work and bare lots of children, while the men sit around talking. Women are the workhorses of the world.

    Oh and polygamy is against the law here, but muslims just ignore it.

  • Comment number 64.

    #59 Maismail ~ As for the issue of penal judegments, then they should apply equally to both sexes. I don't see Islam implemented anywhere in the world politically so I agree their will be some injustice in the implementation in places.

    I might have misunderstood you above, but surely there are quite a lot of Islamic states around the world =

  • Comment number 65.

    #13 mimpromptu
    The far right like Jaded_Jean probably lie just to stay in practice - and of course to give themselves the tiniest fig leaf of respectability. They will say they are not Nazis but they "revere" Hitler and would like all of the major components of National Socialism over democracy.

    They say they are not the BNP yet you will find them plugging their views at every opportunity.

    They say they are intellectuals yet when you ask why they hate Jews the best you get is the "global Jewish conspiracy" and Stalin evicted them in the 1930's at a time that Hitler could not get a job. They seem to really believe that is a logical explanation. Von Bruun, who killed a security guard at a US Holocaust memorial had a prior for trying to kidnap a Fed member - as the Jews run everything. He was an American Friend of the BNP.

    They say they have ideology but will never say that they are the BNP and this is their ideology - National Socialism. Their campaign literature used a Spitfire and I believe an image of Churchill - not a Stuka and an image of Hitler.

    How many people voted for them without any idea of what the BNP are?

    So long as people keep exposing their lies, like their Holocaust "agnosticism" everything should be fine, but I do think that a much tougher and searching approach should be applied to "fringe" relationships.

    The Romany woman beaten in Belfast by young misled people and Lewington claiming to be part of a chain of two man cells points to organisation and there are few that would benefit but the BNP - who are unassociated according to what is currently known.

  • Comment number 66.

    Malloch-Brown does a U-turn on helicopters and the public must decide whether they believe Brown who says they have enough helicopters or the generals who are queuing up to say the opposite.

    For all this talk of spin doctors with both government and opposition parties sporting acts of severe indiscretion they are never very successful are they?

    Will the public believe Brown on helicopters for Afghanistan - no!

    Is it credible that Coulson did not know about the hacking - no!

    Is it credible that the control freak Brown had no idea whatever what McBride was up to - no!

    Will the public swallow the fudge on expenses reform - in the long run no!

  • Comment number 67.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 68.

    #47 JJ "People rationalise to preserve their status quo whilst seeking the benefits their new community affords."

    This is the defacto situation. However, I am unclear on several points.

    Did the government intend a change to a 'pluralistic' society when they espoused multi-culturalism, or was it their intention that immigrants should integrate and live within English law?

    If your reference to 'people' means those entering UK, they chose UK to improve their lives, and I believe the host country required them to integrate and become British (whatever that now means), and to obey English laws, not 'to preserve their status quo' by setting up a mini-state.

    If 'people' refers also to us indigenes, I see few benefits (apart from illegal cheap employment) that this new community affords to our society, only conflicts.

    Long ago I ridiculed the 'We Welcome Diversity' job adverts of a number of Inner London Boroughs, and they have certainly achieved that as recent posts show (Enforced Marriages, Babyfathering, Honour Killing, FGM and now Polygamy).

    Our legendary tolerance has been abused, whilst we have been robbed of our legendary freedom of speech (unless it be by radical preachers, as the link on post #9 shows).

    I am grateful to the NN moderator for allowing fairly open discussion on this latest issue. The fact that most posts have been on this one topic demonstrate the depth of feeling of NN viewers, or at least, of NN posters. What is almost totally missing are views by immigrants. This probably confirms their 'closed' society, and probably 'race realism'. (that should get the standard response about Hitler, and the BNP)

  • Comment number 69.

    indignantindegene (#68) "Did the government intend a change to a 'pluralistic' society when they espoused multi-culturalism, or was it their intention that immigrants should integrate and live within English law?"

    It's always best to ignore intentions as many people are involved in drafting policy and legislation, it's best to look at the antecdents and consequents.

    Afyte the war (not because of it mind) we had a falling population and needed labour. If we didn't have immigration, schools etc would have closed through the falling rolls. Somehow, teachers in the 60s behaved as if cognitive alchemy was possible, i.e that everyone could be taught if only given the opportunity to learn. In fact, most people going into the caring professions from the 60s onwards probably thought 'Marxist' myth that true, colour, creed etc didn't matter to anyone. It was widely held that even if 1st generation immigrants would stick in their old ways, their children would assimilate. To some extent that's happened, but what few seem to taken on board is that if one encourages immigration from poor rural areas, one is likely to have one's work cut out, even if the above is true. Alas, as I've said many times now, despite popular belief (and it's still very popular) it now looks like we were wrong all round, and the problem now is... what if anything can we do about it? Dumbing down education is one answer, but it seems to me to have been an incredibly stupid 'solution'. But then... what is the legal/humane alternative? At some point, we are all going to have to grapple with this issue, as the way things are going nobody will benefit other than those who profit from cheap labour and those easily parted with their money through debt-slavery (which led to the recnet credit crunch), as we now risk recreating Third World conditions here, with economic predators at the ready (something which is much harder when they colonize abroad), and I suspect many of those who migrate here won't see this, as they're basically just not bright enough, and too trusting to see how it happens.

    People like thegangofone don't seem to appreciate that there can be benevolence to 'race-realism'. :-(.

  • Comment number 70.

    US Economics

    Did I hear right your guests saying the USA should borrow or print even more money ?

    I want to hear a range of views , not just from the borrow and spend your way out of debt brigade.

    Please can we hear from Peter Schiff.

    Short on helicopters ?

    Well Lord Brown has changed those remarks by this morning. But that still leaves the Chief of the Defence Staff, previous CDS's and ex soldiers comments !


    Unless marriages are registered with the lawful authorities, then they should not be recognised by Law ,dot !

    And if people decide to live together and call it marriage or partnership without registering it with the lawful authorities, then that is their choice , but I would think if they had kids and later that relationship broke up the mother would be helped by the Child Support Agency !

    If someone does get legally married multiple times , that's illegal.

    Maybe a public information campaign is needed to inform Mosques how to register marriages with the lawful authorities ?

  • Comment number 71.

    #33 KCL

    I'm happy to acknowledge your commitment to Deep Ecology from what I have read from your posts and website. I share your love of Inner Space, since attending a fantastic course on Oceanography at Bermuda Biological Station, forming a Brtish Sub-Aqua branch, diving with expert treasure seekers Teddy Tucker and Harry Cox; though the treasures I found were what Cousteau called 'the living jewels' of the oceans and reefs worldwide. I cannot claim your knowledge of Outer Space, though I have 'cast loose the surly bonds of Earth' in various craft from a Lancaster Bomber with ATC, various single-engine planes in Papua New Guinea, to hang gliders, para-gliders and a microlight more recently.

    As a minimalist, I try to 'leave nothing but footprints and take nothing but photos' on my travels. Although I share your concern for the poor of this world, having lived with some of them, I don't find them all blameless for their fate. One needs to stand up and speak up for one's beliefs and rights, but not forget one's responsibilities.

    Can't comment on your divergence of opinion with other posters; it would be a boring world if we all agreed all of the time and I welcome the broad range of views and opinions expressed on NN blog, thanks to the moderator for the latitude allowed. That at least is an indicator of how free we remain, despite attempts by the radical few to change our society.

  • Comment number 72.

    #70 Steve-London

    "If someone does get legally married multiple times , that's illegal.

    Maybe a public information campaign is needed to inform Mosques how to register marriages with the lawful authorities ?"

    You must be joking - or naive. By the way, is there to be a public stoning for the illegal lass? I'm just trying to assimilate into our new society.

  • Comment number 73.

    So Labour chickened out of moving the writ for an early by-election in the former Speaker Michael Martin's constituency of Glasgow North East!

    I wonder why ........

  • Comment number 74.


    I think you missed my point , if whoever (could be 4 or 5 people) is in a relationship that is not recognized by the Law of the land because it has not been officially recorded (eg in a legal marriage), then why should people look so puzzled when the relationship breaks down and they find they don't have the same rights as people who are officially registered as married or in a civil partnerships etc ?

    If on the other hand people are saying they were misled into legal marriage and their partner turns out to be a bigamist, then that should be brought before a court of Law, as bigamy is illegal within the UK.

    Another problem that seemed to be raised was the fact only 19% of mosques and 90% of RC Church's registered marriages , this means there is no official record of some of these alleged marriages (if it is not registered it should not be recognised by the Law as marriage). How can partners or councils or offices of state or the Law confirm who's married to who or how many times they are marrying and divorcing ? This is why I said information should be supplied to all Mosques and RC Churches to tell them how to register marriages. Other people might be right that Priests or Imams should be held legally responsible for registering of the marriages they perform.

    As for children from these relationships which breakdown, I hope the Child Support Agency is enforcing that both parents of children should contribute to the costs of bringing those children up.

  • Comment number 75.

    Steve-London (#74) "If on the other hand people are saying they were misled into legal marriage and their partner turns out to be a bigamist, then that should be brought before a court of Law, as bigamy is illegal within the UK."

    Good point. I can see how a number of young, romantically minded, overly trusting women could well be duped in this way. There does need to be some protection which means these sorts of ceremonies need to be better regulated, as it's currently a kind of fraud. We used to have rather strict social rules about this sort of breach of promise, but then we used to have a lot of good things which we no longer have. if you read what the Jewish Bolsheviks got up to in the 1920s in Russia, you'll see lot of this liberalism going on then too. I suggest it was all just subversion. It changed later of course. The Germans cleaned things up in the 1930s too, evil-dooers that they were.

  • Comment number 76.

    #71 indignantindegene

    Only been abroad once when 13 on a coach trip to France. Part of the holiday was a day trip to Monaco. Yes. I went to the Cousteau Centre. It was all in French, I don't mean 2nd French I mean proper French. And technical proper French. No English translation what so ever.

    But at least i have been and made my pilgrimage.

    On the subject if waste, I found this today.

    To me there is control and there is control. I really do think we need to draw a line and decide what is reasonable.

  • Comment number 77.

    #74/75 Steve-London/JJ

    I agree with the points made. The reason I asked whether you were joking or naive in #74 was that it suggested a counsel of perfection that caveat emptor should apply in marriage just as in other deals.

    My point is that these immigrants are coming from a culture in which they do not query their menfolk. As JJ says (#75) they can be duped, adding the suggestion that there should be some protection against this type of fraud.

    Problems there are: (i) the usual claim "its in the Koran" will not be challenged by our lilylivered politicians who will continue to turn the blind eye; and (ii) I forsee another army of social workers to monitor and regulate a situation caused by an imported culture clash.

    Even if, (and its a big if) the government 'interfered' rather than leave it to the 85+ sharia courts to sort out, they would not obtain prosecutions. I say that having tried to implement a 'Married Womens' Protection Act' in an overseas territory, only to find that the law officers were usually discouraged by the abandoned women from pressing charges against their men and requested bailiffs not to enforce payments. UK had similar problems with the Child Protection Agency.

    The basic problem remains. The government conveniently "doesn't recognise the marriage" so takes no action, and the 'marriage' conductors will continue to observe their own customs and practices and ignore English law.

  • Comment number 78.

    no 77. but loads of taxpayers money can be doled out to the polygamists and their families... Why do you think they are all queued up at Calais in an attempt to get into uk? We need to know why they are not wishing to stay in Europe with their asylum claims??? ha ha ha And we with the worst hospital system and school system in E U - and lowest wages and standard of living!!!! Migration does us down with the resultant low wage economy and as my North African muslim friend says to me robs other countries of their best people to serve this cheating (on everyone) low wage Nu labour mandalson/blair/Brown nightmare of a country. And the Tories will be as bad. who the hell can we vote for? someone tell me how to use my vote please - for something better.

  • Comment number 79.

    This link tells all and why until now has it been kept more or less secret?

  • Comment number 80.

    #79 Thanks for the link pithywriter, so the figure is around 1000 partnerships, so is that 1 man and four women roughly, so around 5000 people involved, too many for the courts to prosecute I suppose. But that was 18 months ago, so probably nearer 8000 now.

    Just been reading about Bristol, apparently the centre now has half the school children foreign, a quarter of them Somali. I think it's that country that goes in for cutting little girls "bits" off. It's a report by the ICOCO.

  • Comment number 81.


    No wonder no Government representative was available for the program.

    What a mess !

  • Comment number 82.

    indignantindegene (#77) Nicely put. Let's hope that post will make more people think carefully about just how difficult a problem this is, and how we have indeed brought it upon ourselves, and innocent others. My view, as always, is that so-called liberalism is in practice, anti-socialism - i.e. subversion of the state.

  • Comment number 83.

    Four out of five of us want less immigration, contrary to what the government are doing. I wonder why we vote, obviously not to act democratically.

  • Comment number 84.

    The question which wasn't explicitly asked was 'should the Bigamy laws be repealed so as to allow either any man or woman to have mulitiple spouses'?


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