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Friday 3 July 2009

Verity Murphy | 18:31 UK time, Friday, 3 July 2009

Here is what is coming up on tonight's programme:

From the web team:

British Foreign Secretary David Miliband has said he is "urgently seeking clarification" of the announcement by a senior Iranian cleric that local staff working at Britain's Tehran embassy will face trial.

Nine embassy staff were held in Tehran last weekend. Britain says all but two have now been freed. Today Ahmad Jannati from Iran's Guardian Council said of the still detained members of staff: "Naturally they will be put on trial, they have made confessions."

Tonight we will be discussing the British-Iranian relationship and why the UK has replaced the United States as the bete noir of Iranian hardline rhetoric.

Also tonight, Palin for President? Not if some in her party have anything to do with it.

We report from Washington on the Republicans who want to destroy Sarah Palin despite her popularity with the party's grassroots.

And Andy Murray's Britishness - is his relationship with the English just a marriage of convenience?

And here's Kirsty Wark with what is coming up on Newsnight Review:

And then on Review, is the Iran of our imagination the real Iran?

It is one of the oldest civilizations, has an extraordinarily young population, is one of the most literate countries in the world, and is a cultural cornucopia.

In the UK the cultural response to the post-election uprising was swift.

On Wednesday the Royal Court theatre mounted a powerful short "scratch" production distilled from the millions of Twitter "tweets" from Iran and beyond.

We'll be talking about the impact of technology in closed societies with our guests Jonathan Freedland, Baroness Haleh Afshar and Iranian writer Azadeh Moaveni.

We'll be revisiting two of the most powerful accounts of modern Iran, the Oscar-nominated film Persepolis by Marjane Satrapi, based on her graphic novel, and Azar Nafisi's bestselling Reading Lolita In Tehran.

Shirin is the new film from the Iranian arthouse director Abbas Kiarostami in which we watch 100 Iranian women as they watch a filmed performance of a 12th Century Persian poem about Shirin the Queen of Armenia.

And more on the impact of the net when revolution threatens to destabilise closed societies.

The film Burma VJ is the account of the pro-democracy uprisings in Burma in 2007 as told by citizen journalists with forbidden cameras.

Do join us for all that and more.


  • Comment number 1.

    "Tonight we will be discussing the British-Iranian relationship and why the UK has replaced the United States as the bete noir of Iranian hardline rhetoric."

    That should be depressing. Whilst the USA's economy is in a really bad shape and they know it, our deluded FCO seems to think the British electorate is completely clueless as it takes on Iran and its SCO backers.

  • Comment number 2.

    Is there any chance of anybody in England other than London getting there local news tonight.

    I see you switched all news to BBC 2 so we have London news but hey its ok because Scotland, Wales and NI still have their local news on their regional BBC 2 channels.

    Good news though! Murray has just crashed out so perhaps we can now have our local news on at the right time.

  • Comment number 3.

    The only way Financial Services get away with their chutzpah is because the state has been weakened. Just look at what's been done over the last 30 years to the Civil Service via political correctness, H&S drivel. The military is away fighting for what? The Lisbon Treaty exacerbates it all in favour of intenationalism and free-trade/markets, and the banks are having a field day.

    Guess who's paying (aka being milked)?

  • Comment number 4.

    we are a strange breed, we do not like change so when the schedules fly out of the window like at christmas and you no longer know what day it is, now that Murray is out we can reclaim the airwaves. God help us if anyone ENGLISH made progress at Wimbledon then life would end and the only thing certain would be the shipping forecast....

  • Comment number 5.

    #4 leftieoddbod

    Have faith! Next year, things might improve by one stage.

    Jamie Murray will be in the doubles final, while Andy is in the singles final. Elena Baltacha will reach the 3rd round, while various English players will get past the first day.

    You have years to wait for your Doomsday scenario :-)

  • Comment number 6.

    From the top deck. No. 15. Friday, 3 July 2009

    Somewhat more important things IMHO than Mint Mania

    (Where this was originally - wrongly - posted!!!!)

    Forced Marriages .....

    Is it the case that the increase in the number of women approaching the Forced Marriage Unit is an indicator that these women are being westernised, learning to appreciate the freedoms of the UK or just plain fed up with their parents living in the Old Country? Whatever the reasons, it is women taking action for themselves and they deserve all the support we can give

    Mr (B) Johnson .....

    4807 pounds per hour! Hard to realise that with his build he is such an in demand footballer! And the GBP are just so, so, so concerned about Bankers bonuses, HMPs expenses and straight cucumbers! An appropriate thought ......Bananas?

    Ms (K) Usher.....

    It is common practice to find out what demands your job will make upon you before applying for it. How come you Q .... really enjoyed .... unQ the job but the extreme demands that take away from your responsibility to be a proper parent took six months of consideration and deliberation to come to the conclusion that your family is more important and yet you will still do the work of an HMP for about another year before chucking it in which is more in the way of cost to your family? Perhaps the Relocation Allowance will compensate somewhat?

    Plumbing .....

    Local top deck chatter suggests that a large number of those undertaking HMG funded FE courses are from Eastern Europe. Is this an indictment of UK yoof or an indication that EU yoovz are better motivated? Or perhaps there are more long term unemployed yoof EUers claiming JSA and more British Jobs have gone to British Yoof? Maybe top deckers have just got it wrong?

    Education White Paper .....

    The last opportunity for HMG to improve the system before the next GE. So why have they left so many things as they are? Is there any mention of Faith School abolition? One could have said Is there any mention of Places allocation? but at least that is now going to be reviewed so, for that, serious thanks to .....

    Ms Patel .....

    If one has enough intelligence to be able to accrue enough money to pay for private education then how much more brain power does it to fill in a form correctly? If one does not have the intellectual acumen to accurately complete such things then one might conclude genetically ones offspring would struggle to achieve in a successful learning establishment? If no law is available to prosecute an action, sorry mistake, it does not automatically exonerate one of guilt, sorry, the error.

    Buzz Aldrin .....

    Plenty of airtime for the plugging of the new tome but not one single mention - anywhere? - of the ninetieth anniversary of an equally historic American aviation event that changed the world. .... The first powered aircraft crossing of the Atlantic?

    150 .....

    .... years for stealing money in the USA. Whats the average sentence for murder in the UK? ..... Discuss?

    NN Editorial Team .....

    A suggestion for items for a possible future report ....
    (That is what the BBCs blog comments are for, isnt it? Giving ideas?)

    Is the Islamification of Europe inevitable? ...... Discuss?

    Oh! .....

    Good to see the link back. Nice one NN!

    Q .... .... unQ

  • Comment number 7.

    What an odd item on Britishness!

    No depth, no analysis. Stuart Cosgrove who both personally and professionally understands the different dimensions of nationality in the UK, and some stammering English journalist who (even when this was the whole point of the interview!!) confused the terms English and British!

  • Comment number 8.

    What's happened to Newsnight Review? It used to be a REVIEW programme, covering the week's artistic and cultural highlights. (That strapline seems to have diappeared from the website??). Where, on BBC TV, are current plays, novels, arts shows etc being covered and reviewed?

  • Comment number 9.

    Yet another tedious, themed Review tonight. That's all there has been for weeks. What's happened to a new book/film/cd/tv review programme? There's no shortage of output to cover.
    I don't recall any announcement that this is what Review will be from now on? Please do these themed ones on another night, or after a 'proper' one. And where are Harris, Kermode, Greer - (even Mr: it really is a-)Paulin.
    Please tell us if we are stuck with theme shows forever. I'll just shift to paying more attention to Front Row/Saturday Review on R4 - though NR does/did it better!

  • Comment number 10.

    Haleh Afshar offers her customary apologetics for radical islam in a home country she has herself abandoned. I ask you to pause and pose one question: if this were a 'Catholic' republic, would left-liberal chatterati opinion grant it these concessions? If Vatican City were to conduct its affairs on this basis, would it be so indulged?

    It is quite astonishing that the systematic violation of human rights which is part and parcel of daily life in Iran is simply ignored here. This is a nation that has persecuted a religious minority almost to extinction (the Bahai), seeks the eradication of one of its neighbours (Israel), kills homosexuals and is led by a fanatic who believes in the imminent occultation of the hidden Imam to inaugurate the end of history (yes, if this were George W...). Yet NR chooses to dwell on the right-on outpourings of a tiny minority of artists and film makers as if they were somehow representative of an autonomous arty culture cleverly outwitting the oppressor state and remaking civil society from within (less than 35% of Iranians have access to the internet). It would be funny were it not nauseating. Especially when one considers that this is a country we will soon have to take on (uncannily, just as our forebears did).

  • Comment number 11.

    Valentinus (#10) "It is quite astonishing that the systematic violation of human rights which is part and parcel of daily life in Iran is simply ignored here."

    The language of 'human rights' is how free-market consumer capitalism is spread to (usually socialist) countries resisting this. It's targetted at the young (i.e experienced) because they know no better and so are easily bought. The Iranian revolution in 1979 (like the Chinese students in 1989) wanted an end to that corruption.

    Look at what has been happening here... and think.

  • Comment number 12.

    Persepolis - nostalgia for middle class girls brought up in the West in the 50s and 60s before anarchism and nihilism became de rigueur?

  • Comment number 13.

    #6 JAperson

    NN Editorial Team .....

    A suggestion for items for a possible future report ....
    (That is what the BBCs blog comments are for, isnt it? Giving ideas?)

    Is the Islamification of Europe inevitable? ...... Discuss?

    Well I suppose the Italiens are doing something!

  • Comment number 14.

    I'm sorry, JadedJean, but it is very hard to make sense of what you are saying. The discourse of human rights may well be appropriated or misused by all sorts of forces (of which 'consumer capitalism', whatever that is, may be one), but that in no sense diminishes the fundamental claims made since the Enlightenment and codified in international statute since, protecting the fundamental interests and freedoms of human beings everywhere. For all their shortcomings, I'll take my 'consumer capitalist' liberties of the European democracies any time before the theocratic oppression of the Islamic Republic of Iran. So while I may look 'here' and complain about any number of infractions of human rights even in the West, when I set these alongside the abuses in Tehran, I think the moral case is self-evident. I presume you are not seriously suggesting that living in Britain and living in Iran are in any sense politically or morally equivalent. As for the origins of the 1979 Iranian revolution, well it is infinitely more complex than you imply. Sure, justified opposition to Western imperialism and its pahlavi puppets was part of it, but liberals were dazzled by that and failed to see the deep-seated Islamism also at work.

  • Comment number 15.

    What's happened to newsnight Review? Have we lost the best arts review
    around covering the latest arts events and openings? I dislike intensely the new themed political format of the programme. If this is what we can expect in the future I will sadly have to turn elsewhere for real arts news.

  • Comment number 16.

    FWIW, and knowing how often the authors read their own publications, the rather cryptic 'Mark Urban' post currently at the top results in:

    Error 404 - Page not found

  • Comment number 17.

    Valentinus (#14) "I'm sorry, JadedJean, but it is very hard to make sense of what you are saying."

    You don't appear to be trying very hard.

    Liberal-Democracy is based on rights rather than duties. Human rights NGOs are deployed by those who benefit from Liberal-Democracies (not those who live under them, as their TFRs are below replacement level and dysgenic i.e biologically unfit) to undermine socialism which is tilted towards duties.

    You've been conditioned to defend human rights withouut seing what the seditious modus operandi at work is. It's divisive, reinforces self-centredness (narcissism), arrogance and anarchism, rendering electorates (consumers) easier prey to financial predators. Liberal-Democracies' enemies are not their alleged enemies, but those who depict them so. See Credit Crunch, see immigration, see this.

    Requires a bit of thought. Judge nations (other than the PRC which has eugenics policies/legislation at work) by TFRs, not words. See also PISA results 2000, 2003, 2006 and falling standards here and in the USA.

  • Comment number 18.

    Kirsty Wark's piece on Britishness was completely partisan. If she is so dismissive of the British identity she should take herself back to Scotland and stay there. Where was the advocate for Britain. I was born in England of an English father and a Scottish mother. I live in Northern Ireland and have two sons born here. One lives in Scotland, the other in London. I have two Scottish granddaughters. I have never thought of myself as anything other than British, although I am extremely proud of my Scottish and English heritage. Devolution has bred divisions which are creating rather unattractive manifestations.

  • Comment number 19.


    Londonlavenderbag (#18) "Devolution has bred divisions which are creating rather unattractive manifestations."

    Kirsty Wark was just continuing in the BBC theme of anti-racism, anti-sexism, anti-nationalism ..aka pro individualism, pro-Balkanization of Britain in favour of EU 'stateletization' (Regional Development Agencies and devolved Union), pro free-market libertarianism/anarchism, pro internationalism (abrogation of governanace).

    Whether those peddling on Newsnight this are aware of the agenda or not doesn't relaly matter as outcomes are all that ever matter, not intentions (intensions), but the agenda is obvious, as are the agents, targets and beneficiaries. What one sees is denationalisation/emasculation of a once major ethnic group so that a powerful minority feminized group can increase its hegemony. Yet nationalism, with an expllcit genetic basis, is championed in a 'right wing' Middle Eastern apartheid state. How is this hypocrisy ever to be reconciled if it is not more openly discussed?

    Don't you find it unsettling when people are constantly inappropriately smiling (urbanely) when talking about matters which are not affective - the baroness of Iranian heritage on Newsnight Review last night was the most obvious example.

    As NPD was raised (speciously?) on the programme in the context of Palin last night, here's a a good link. This is a very NYC/East European origin disposition, and it's very condusive to liberatarianism/anarchism/celebritism. This is a 'feature' of arrested development....the Axis II Cluster B kissing cousin of psychopathy (APD which comprises about half our prison population....which has doubled in the last 20 years). These people are destructive and sadly, generally untreatable. :-(

  • Comment number 20.


    Wih gay pride on the march, the unmistakable scent of 'phobia' is in the air. But the definition of the word 'phobia' relies on the word 'irrational'.

    Who shall be the ultimate arbiter in the matter of WHAT IS RATIONAL?

    [WH(NP)PA = White heterosexual (no police) Pride Association]

  • Comment number 21.


    It is easy to see the lie in which 'They' live FROM INSIDE OURS. They, of course, see the 'errors' of our cultural lie.

    While we have one such as Miliband D, so lacking in philosophy and humility, yet bursting with narrow ambition, and they have their equivalents, the world will remain in a juvenile grip - behaving badly.

    As Vaclav Havel pointed out: someone has to step outside their lie, or nothing changes, and children with nukes will continue to squabble.

  • Comment number 22.

    barrie (#21) Alas, most people today appear to think that being well educate means being able to construct a good/plausible 'argument' (really, just a persuasive 'narrative' aka story). The days of teaching accurate description and sound analysis is now geeky and went into recession around the time we started sending 50% rather than 5% to 'university' in order to look and sound good by telling 'stories'.

    Yes, to have D. Miliband heading the FCO is guaranteed to cause ill-will. It's obviously been done on purpose, and whilst it does Britain no good at all, it is clearly useful to both Israel and the USA. It is a statement of Zionist power to those inclined to look at matters this way and billions do regardless of what the liberals may say. To say that these ethnic issues don't matter is false, the Russians still go on about his grandfather and Trotsky!

  • Comment number 23.

    iran is the current neocon objective which is why nn are pumping it every chance they get. To 'prepare the public opinion ground' for action against iran. So its iran this and iran that.

    One of the largest sources for uranium in the world is kazakhstan which a report on 1 june says half of the deposits have been stolen and sold to foreign companies. Every country is bending over to get a piece of the action. Russia, China, Japan, Israel, France. Despite the nepotism [no real concern here over regime change and democracy, womens rights, journalistic freedom, internet access, pollution, banning protests?

    so if those are not universal concerns of 'the free world' why bang on about them in iran? other than to 'make a case' for war.

    if kazakhstan - where 'Democracy' is Spelled 'Dynasty' - did not supply iran with uranium where would to get it from? so why no threats to bomb kazakhstan if they do?

    so what we see in our media are reflected shadows of the agendas of those in power. the uk is under neocon occupation which is why we see their interests reflected in our media.

  • Comment number 24.

    I would like to add to previous comments about the recent birth of the 'themed' newsnight. I am a busy working parent who likes to sit down at the end of the week and listen to educated comments about books, theatre or film recently released. I do this in the hope of coming across a subject that will inspire me to extend myself above the latest trashy novel or film that is my usual fare.

    Alas, I have been disappointed again, this time with an Iranian themed review. What is Newsnight's loss is Jonathon Ross's gain I suppose. Am I destined to see the latest Sandra Bullock's romcom after all ?!

    Please, could Newsnight review revert back to it's non-themed status once more ?

  • Comment number 25.


    the art of review is to provide a benefit to the customers. if it has no benefit [other than self benefit] then it is not art. if not art then what? propaganda? self indulgence? vanity?

    if a doctor does not perform their art for the benefit of patients then they are either an incompetent doctor or a highly dangerous one?

    if we say the role of art is to heal the soul and save the state then any review should throw light on how well it meets that objective.

    usually all we get is personal reaction.

    anyone who does not throw light on a subject increases the darkness. that is the greatest crime in art.

    english literature was not studied in uk universities till ww1 which matched the failure in the uk of established religion to speak to the people in a post darwian world. One could examine the case the art in a society where religion still functions [e.g iran] will serve a different purpose than one in which religion as a national force has vanished [uk].

    also with kirsty you know if she is not painting herself in woad its gonna focus on her pet wimmin issues.

    so to expect NNR to act in the proper tradition of the art of review is probably beyond their competence. still one can get some good entertaining oneupmanship as the reviewers try to oneup their fellow reviewers with apparently important insights.

  • Comment number 26.

    Euro17 (#24) "I am a busy working parent who likes to sit down at the end of the week and listen to educated comments about books, theatre or film recently released"

    Fair enough, but why should a programme like Newsnight do that? A review of the arts used to be done by other good BBC programmes (has Baron Bragg given up, if so, surely there are others?). Newsnight Review shold surely be about a review of the news, not entertainment. If Newsnight really must cut into a news programme this way, I guess this Iranian theme was better than earlier efforts which came close to commercially plugging some people's books, at least it raised some interesting points/paradoxes about just how 'oppressive' Iran isn't.

  • Comment number 27.


    'But the French have no word for it' - Dubya Bush.

    PS I gather Blair will be on some sad UK radio show on Wednesday. Is this the start of a 'Love Tony' offensive, before he is called to give evidence on his personal war? Remember the Archer attempt to influence public opinion? Wooops!

  • Comment number 28.

    barrie (#27) Did the Americans invent it? I thought they just appropriated and 'developed' it?

    Still, the USA is certainly famous for its conceit. This is getting a lot of coverage at present. Jackson and Palin too....

  • Comment number 29.


    Hi JJ. I had been struck with Obama being closer to Dubya than one might think. They certainly show a similar marked contrast when speaking impromptu v delivering a script. Might he be more orator than statesman? Perish the thought.

    And Magic Obama's declaration in favour of a two-state solution is about as daft as Dubya's attack on Iraq to prevent another 9/11. I am in favour of Blair admitting that he wanted a war and stopped at nothing to get one, but I would not pretend it is a possibility.

    Is there a map of the suggested two states (and perhaps a 'New Jerusalem'?) anywhere on the web? Perhaps they will apply wormholes and the fourth dimension. I still can't get the 'Vance Owen' plan out of my head. I suppose if Solomon were around he would decree: "Flatten the lot and have half each". That was his style was it not?

  • Comment number 30.

    28. At 12:34pm on 04 Jul 2009, JadedJean wrote:
    barrie (#27) Did the Americans invent it? I thought they just appropriated and 'developed' it?

    I am pretty sure that some plucky Brit actually invented it, but got ignored and died in the poor house.

    By my recollection it is usually attributed to Mr. Daimler, isn't it? At least, with an engine powered by exploding fuel. Lots of steam and maybe even electric efforts prior.

    I think our US cousins only really got credit when Henry Ford cranked up a production line for the Model 'T'.

    Though it is possible Al Gore's great-great-great, etc grandpa actually stormed the beaches from the Matyflower in one.

  • Comment number 31.


    JunkkMale (#30) I went and did some homework after that post and whilst no doubt it was some poor, unrecognized, ripped off person (NB. KCL 'tis the way of an unjust world - it's very hard to tell where ideas come from as we learn from others without knowing so), convention has it that it was Herr Benz of Deutchland, and the first production line was in fact a creation of Mr Olds (his Oldsmobile 'Curved Dash' later of GM fame ironically). Mr Ford appropriated and developed these ideas (and didn't like 'Jews' one bit for some reason - again, ideas and ownership are major problems for humans I fear).

  • Comment number 32.

    barrie (#29) The maps I have seen of a 'two-state' solution seem to have aged badly, the Palestinian state looking like moths and worms have been at it. A bit like the USA and UK in fact. I had better stop, I feel the urge to write in capitals and German!

  • Comment number 33.

    OOOH I can feel a verbal rumble coming.

    Bring it on then.

  • Comment number 34.


    or does it just change the team saying they will get things done? Which they never do, if they did they wouldn't get voted out.

    Key questions are motivation related to goal orientation.

    What are our individual, peer group, regional, national and global goals and motivation.

    Are our goals and motivation the right ones?

    Why should I have any interest at all in the goals of the UK Government and the culture I am supposed to be part of, when I do not share many of it's values and the inclusive 'we' they impose on 'me'.

    Why does NN and other media programmes assume I have any interest in what they present as the 'norm' for the goal orientation and motivation of the political establishment and the UK.

    I am subject to a political dictatorship. Only the team changes imposing their will on me. Trying to get me in their 'we' without giving me the chance or voice to say I do not want to be part of your vision.

    Who represents those who do not vote, because no one who seeks a vote represents those who have no interest in what they offer.

    What do those of us who want different motivations, goals and vision that the media/political dictatorship impose on us (me) do?

    Democracy as we have it does not get things done, or does not get the right things done. Is this because the system filters those into itself who are not 'doozers', but are able only to obtain a vote or mandate to get themselves into a position they want. This their strength. Their weakness they have no vision for the greater good, or the ability to implement or bring about the best path to the future for all.

  • Comment number 35.

    KingCelticLion (#33) The really evil thing that they can't abide about 'totalitarians' is that they all limit the free-market and strictly regulate 'Financial Services' - policies which are extremely bad for their pockets.

    Why else would all socialist/statist economies throughout the world get such bad press/treatment? The horror stories are probably largely just that... to keep regulation at bay domestically.

  • Comment number 36.


    Now Mr Ecclestone has made his views known about democracy, even naming Gordon and Tony. "Weve let it go down again. All these guys, Gordon and Tony, are trying to please everybody all the time."

    Perhaps Gordon and Tony could now explain what the £1 million they took from Mr Ecclestone was for. It appears it wasn't to assist Nu Labour.

    Not that I am bothered about the reason. Just like Gordon and Tony to give the reason.

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 37.

    Note how agitated some (agitprop?) people get when confronted with the Jewish population count for Eastern/Central Europe in the 1930s and the combined world Jewish population today given overall below replacement fertility (which would explain a population fall. Russia and East Europe have falling populations given their 1.2- 1.3 TFRs). In fact, Europe in general is in trouble, the UK is doing remarkably well at 1.8 and yet still below replacement (remember, with 1.1 a population halves in 30 years!).

    It's as if some amongst us want a major homicidal loss in the Jewish population to have been brought about in the minds of others contrary to what the figures suggest. What purpose might such a macabre desire serve other than to vilify statism? Note how the treatment given to the USSR and constant vilification of N Korea, and not long ago Uzbekistan. They daren't do it to the PRC.... it controls too much American debt...

  • Comment number 38.

    PRECISELY! (#32)

    So what is the rational mind to make of Obama's 'intent' regarding achievement the Two State Solution? SURELY we cannot be in 'fool-or-knave' territory AGAIN? SURELY NOT with the planet's new white hope: Magic Obama?

    I found a west Bank site a while back that was reminiscent of the song that says: From a distance the world looks OK, but close up . . .
    Each time I zoomed in the truth was more stark. It is just another hypocritical game isn't it? And 'man of the people' Barack is in there 'playing' to the hilt; some people being more unequal than others.

  • Comment number 39.

    Taking a bit of time to moderate. I am waiting to read Barrie.

    Have we an exposed a raw nerve?

    Celtic lion

  • Comment number 40.

    another great programme by frontline pbs on the inside story behind the usa bailouts.

    a real public service programme.

  • Comment number 41.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 42.

    #37 Jaded_Jean

    It's as if some amongst us want a major homicidal loss in the Jewish population to have been brought about in the minds of others contrary to what the figures suggest."

    So how many war trials - including Nuremburg - were stopped because evidence suggested there were no such trials?

    Should the Djemjanjuk trial be made aware of your spectacular "findings" and how does that conflict with the evidence of witnesses, victims and perpetrators?

    The BNP do not deny as Griffin got prosecuted and Irving got hammered in Austria when he tried to present his evidence - they are "agnostic".

    Therefore you don't believe your own "evidence" is significant.

  • Comment number 43.

    #36 kingcelticlion

    "Perhaps Gordon and Tony could now explain what the 1 million they took from Mr Ecclestone was for. It appears it wasn't to assist Nu Labour."

    Remember don't "do politics" - hmm NuLabour is a phrase used by the BNP! Are you "doing politics"?

    Many post on this page and say they are not Nazis or the BNP.

    Then they proceed to endorse Hitler and his policies and try every facile lie to promote the BNP.

    Your pals are trying to suggest there was no Holocaust and you are sanguine.

    What would you "Nobel prize winning colleagues" - and friend's perhaps - say?

    Would they wonder whether you had indeed spent most of your youth with your head in a rock pool?

  • Comment number 44.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 45.

    thegangofone (#42) "So how many war trials - including Nuremburg - were stopped because evidence suggested there were no such trials?"

    For the sake of grasping an alterntive view (the essence of good education) try to conceive of the possibility (i.e if only as a counterfactual) that these trials were just political show trials, the basics of which were conceived in the original meetings of Churchill, Stalin and Roosevelt in the Tehran Conference of late 1943 and subsequent meetings. Continuing with the counterfactual, let's say their agendas were mixed. For the West, the agenda was to prevent the expansion of state socialism and to promote Liberal-Democracy. For the East (which desired just that) the hope was that the West's steps would accelerate the collapse of capitalism. For the Soviets, it was a long range strategy. The truth/falsehood of the details in the trials to which you refer were secondary in the grand scheme of things. Today, it should be obvious that the vilification of statism everywhere is in fcat the Western agenda as it's a major threat to Liberal-Demcoracy aka naked capitaism/consumerism.

    I'm sure there are statists like China (and secretly Russia/the rest of the SCO) who are happy to see the West undermine itself in this way.

    Are you doing your bit?

  • Comment number 46.

    On Palin the IoS says:

    "The memoir, to be published by Rupert Murdoch's HarperCollins next year, reportedly attracted a six-figure advance, and may also be printed in special editions with additional religious material. The details remain under wraps, but Palin has hired Lynn Vincent, of the Christian-conservative World magazine, as co-author.

    The book is likely to chart her extraordinary rise through Alaskan politics, sweeping to power in Juneau on a ticket of social conservatism and fighting corruption, and her time in the national spotlight. Beyond that, her earnings from speeches and appearances could be multiples of the $125,000 she earned annually as governor. "

    Given the six figure advance she probably is not quitting to raise money to pay legal costs.

    Perhaps she is addicted to the limelight and freebies or possibly this is to "get the money" because there is dirt to come out?

    Its like a soap opera.

  • Comment number 47.

    errata (#45) "Today, it should be obvious that the vilification of statism everywhere is in fact the Western agenda as it's a major threat to Liberal-Democracy aka naked capitalism/consumerism."

    People in Financial Services don't like it one bit - see Point 18. They're quite happy at the moment as they've just asked nicely not to do it again by Mr Darling, but as they're now underwritten by the taxpayer, and as they have to make profits for their shareholders, that's a bit pie-in-the-sky is it not?

  • Comment number 48.

    #45 jaded_jean

    "that these trials were just political show trials, the basics of which were conceived in the original meetings of Churchill, Stalin and Roosevelt in the Tehran Conference of late 1943 and subsequent meetings"

    Why bother with show trials if both East and West had crushed the Nazis? In 1945 it was hard to find a Nazi in Germany as they said.

    If you are in the majority you don't have to lie. Hitler would have just had people quietly shot.

    The other problem is that millions are related to victims, millions are related to those that found the camps, millions are related to the perpetrators. You can't keep that quiet and as I say why did/does no "brave" fascist call the bluff of those perpetrating what you say is a lie by going to one of the "show trials" and presenting your "evidence".

    Nobody would stop you approaching the Djemjanjuk defence team for instance.

    There is an overwhelming volume of testimony, films and so on.

    But then you have previously said that there were no murders - just disease and then the Russians (evil "statists") shot the rest.

    So where was your evidence for the disease theory again?

    The BNP are not Nazis - but Hitler is revered by them and they would like to implement his policies.

    To save time I am "an anarchist and Trotskyite" as I "paint Hitler as darkly as possible for party political reasons".

    Others may say I don't tell ludicrous unsustainable lies that can only be presented via the internet anonymously as they would be shot down in a court.

    Von Bruun, American Friend of the BNP" shot a security guard at a Holocaust memorial the other week in the US. He also did time for trying to kidnap Fed members as they were part of a Jewish "conspiracy".

    He has very similar views to you doesn't he.

  • Comment number 49.

    #29 barriesingleton

    "And Magic Obama's declaration in favour of a two-state solution is about as daft as Dubya's attack on Iraq to prevent another 9/11."

    The thought of Israel at peace with its neighbours must be horrific to Hitler loving Holocaust "agnostics".

    Oh joy.

    PS You could have somebody drop some of your poetry in the Middle East. Its not as horrific as war and terrorism but could fill a gap.

  • Comment number 50.

    # 43 GO1

    And my next sentence, which you have decided not to quote was.

    "Not that I am bothered about the reason"

    According to you the BNP must have a lot of supporters if everyone who uses 'NuLabour' is a 'suspect'.

    I was at a conference in 2004 afterwards I was talking to some from the Treasury and DEFRA. Surprisingly all were influenced by Cousteau. There are more people than you can imagine who have spent their time 'with their head in rock pools'.

    You seem to have missed out.

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 51.

    "Why bother with show trials if both East and West had crushed the Nazis? In 1945 it was hard to find a Nazi in Germany as they said."

    For Stalin they were an alternative to just shooting 50,000-100,000 German soldiers/officers at the end of the war (as he suggested at Tehran in 1943). As I have explained, it served a propaganda purpose. These trials were widely reported. The stories scared those in the West off statism.

    As to the relatives of people who died/disappeared in the 1940s, one has to remember that many went into Soviet territory (Eastern Europe was where all of the alleged 'death-camps' were, those who dead in Western liberated camps died from diseases not murder). In the 1970s, lots of Jews from Russia were allowed to emigrate... Today there are 14 million Jews in the world, in the mid 1930s about 15 million. The loses can possibly be explained in terms of a) assimlation and b) low birth rates. Sadly people do die in wars. This is never to be celebrated...

  • Comment number 52.

    In a nutshell, it is statism at home which is the target. It was a surprise to many that Churchill lost to Labour in 1945. Watch the General Motors sponsored cartoon version of Hayek's 'The Road To Serfdom'. Note - this is an anarchistic, i.e libertarian website. Liberal-Democrats are libertarians aka anarchists. Are they not bankrupt?

  • Comment number 53.


    (I mentioned the war.)

  • Comment number 54.

    With normal impartiality the BBC do not report from Republicans who like Sarah. We may expect a long stream of smears against her from the BBC. his is also how they treat anybody in Britain who supports individual freedom, less government power, free enterprise 7 not accepting the catastrophic warming scam.

    Has the BBC EVER interviewed Democrats who object to Joe Biden's support of the nastier policies of Hitler in a way which would be heavily reported by our media if they were honest but of which Newsnight would censor me if I even mentioned it.

  • Comment number 55.

    neilninepercent (#54) support of the naster policies of Hitler?

    Are you pro-Israel and Wall Street/The City - as philanthropic freedom creators/spreaders?

  • Comment number 56.

    #53 Barrie

    Well you did.

    Perhaps at the next election with MPs standing down over expenses. The time has come for those who voted for the..

    (notice how I never mentioned it)

    To also stand down. We could call it the Laurel and Hardy Mandate. As in, "That's another fine mess.."

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 57.


    Today, Andrew Marr danced (with Martina Navratilover) all round an even greater taboo, whilst living in the lie of, apparently, meeting it fearlessly, head on.

    We may have the bravest mercenaries on the planet, but when it comes to leapfrog, we dare - not. When the Space Age gave us the Non-Stick frying-pan, we were not slow to name it. But when the 'Age of Consent' demanded a bit of implicit 'Naming of Parts' our flagship broadcaster ran away - and is still running.

  • Comment number 58.


    Barrie (#57) Watching Marr and Miliband continue to draw attention to the 'Iran Crisis' made me think of the Bangladesh election violence not so long ago, and the Kenya election violence.

    Was Mr Milband as incensed then?

    We have more important economic issues to sort out with our nearer neighbours Mr Miliband. Israel's interests are not the UK's interests.

    You should stay out of Iran's domestic politics - in fact, I suspect you might do the UK a great service by staying out of politics altogether.

  • Comment number 59.


    "The BBC's Michael Crick has denied any bias by the BBC in refusing to cover me on Newsnight. In Today's Independent on Sunday, Michael Crick states:

    "Oh yes, that's right, it's all a big conspiracy, ordered by the BBC governors. Of course it's not. It was an accident. We're not obliged to report all the candidates. He'll have to join the queue behind the BNP and UKIP candidates to be interviewed. It's much ado about nothing."

    The BBC's desperation to promote the BNP as ahead of me is scarey."

    Well........Not really. It comes to something when one feels compleled to state that the BNP has a more credible political agenda. To be clear, this is not an endorsement of the BNP per se, merely to say that campaigning for 'Human Rights' is not a credible platform given the use this is put to in the subversion of state control to our great economic cost.

  • Comment number 60.

  • Comment number 61.


    Not only is Phoney Tony due to be doing the light fantastic on Wednesday (women in his 'life' or some-such) but there he was on this morning's Today' (incidentally, left a stumbling wreck by a question about how well he didn't do while in office, regarding 'climate change').

    To quote myself from #27 above: "Is this the start of a 'Love Tony' offensive, before he is called to give evidence on his personal war? Remember the Archer attempt to influence public opinion? Wooops!

    The cartoonists were apt to mock Tony's ears, I am more concerned with what goes on between them. WATCH THIS SPACE. And note the amount of air-time given to his vacuous pronouncement - on anything. Perhaps he will get a TV show with Nancy Del'Olio.


    PS Will we get to see his 'Victory in Iraq' medal?

  • Comment number 62.

    barrie (#61) Excellent analysis.

    They've tried ACAs, 'Mexican' Flu, Iranian elections, and now they're fielding 'hush-puppy' Blair, in the hope that he'll guarantee to take folks' attention off the awful cost which New Labour's self-interested backers have wrought upon them and their (below replacement level) progeny.

    If things go as I expect, over time, SCO members will collectively buy up the UK's Means of Production and effect a socialist coup by stealth economics. International relations would appear prima facie evidence that they're no fans of New Labour and its cosmetic 'socialism'.

  • Comment number 63.

    Barrie - Elsewhere above, in the context of stature and behaviour. It's worth reading in full?

  • Comment number 64.

    I've always known the BBC is existing on borrowed time. I personally believe it has only about 3/4 years before its finally broken up. Stories such as the following link only hastens it's demise.

  • Comment number 65.


    A global catastrophy. You wait for years and then three come along at once!

    Hi JJ and Cookie-D. Interesting links.

  • Comment number 66.

    If Obama is on tonight we know that the far right BNP posters will be frothing at the mouth with racial "insight".

    I have always wondered whether at a meeting populated by people of that ilk (say Von Bruun AFBNP attempted kidnapper and murderer) is it impolite to froth at the same time or does one person have the floor and froths?

    Perhaps they all go out onto a hillside and howl at the moon.

  • Comment number 67.

    #50 kingcelticlion

    Bluntly I don't believe you are not the BNP.

    Its self evident that the BNP places a priority on this site as they seem intent on filling it with their racially inspired hatred each day. The posters do reveal their loyalties over time.

    But they will often say "oh no I am not a Nazi or the BNP!"

    The trouble is that they do reveal that they want to see the BNP get more coverage, they do revere Hitler and want his policies on race and economics and so on.

    There is the "Labour Party worker" who is "wavering" - at election times and so.

    But you seem to be quite at ease dealing with people who are agnostic on the Holocaust and see Hitler as a "peace lover". Von Bruun who shot a security guard at a Holocaust Memorial in the US and was an American Friend of the BNP holds VERY similar views to jaded_jean on Jews.

    But then you don't "do politics".

    Almost everybody is "an anarchist and a Trotskyite" to them if they "paint Hitler as darkly as possible for party political reasons".

    Your comment on a Romanian woman being beaten in Belfast was to ask what I knew about Belfast.

    You have been to Belfast a lot - when you aren't chatting to your Nobel prize winner buddies?

  • Comment number 68.

    thegangofone (#66) Look into the Strasser brothers.

  • Comment number 69.

    Is Michael Crick going to follow up on McBride? Surely he must have a very interesting tale to tell?

  • Comment number 70.

    #51 Jaded_Jean

    A farcical pack of lies as ever. Not even a credible fact. How would you know what went on in Russia when the rest of the world does not.

    The evil Katyn Forest massacre is clearly a separate story as the officers had strategic and not racial value. I believe they were of the same race as the Russians.

    There are mountains of evidence about what happened. People like me are often related to the people who found the camps or were in them. The films that were shown at the Nuremburg trial were by the US in their area and they had no time or cause to conspire with the Russians.

    You believe your facts to be true and there is no reason why Djemjanjuk could not use this "evidence" at trial.

    It simply is rubbish to suggest that you have even a semblance of an argument and then you won't go to the trial. You don't need to be an expert witness just to pass on your great knowledge.

    "The stories scared those in the West off statism."

    But you are saying that the "statist" Russians did a lot of the killing and were at war with the "statist" Nazis who had killed some 30-40 million citizens in the Soviet Union.

    As "peace lovers" do.

    Observers may note that this identification of "statism" is a strategy to try and identify the BNP/Nazis as left wing and a viable home for those on the left of the Labour party.

    In fact Hitler was more of a replacement aristocrat using a cult-like flexible ideology as his raison d'etre as opposed to a family tree.

    It could be argued he was neither left nor right - just evil.

  • Comment number 71.

    thegangofone (#70) "How would you know what went on in Russia when the rest of the world does not."

    You misunderstand. The point was that most people in the West did not understand what was going on in the USSR. The West made a big deal of the holocaust after the IMT, not the USSR. This is simple point. The Eastern and Central European territories initially taken over by Germany and her allies, along with East Germany itself, all becasme Soviet territory with the agreement of the Western allies. There were millions of Displaced Persons (DPs) at he end of the war. So all those people in Eastern ('death') camps went into the USSR. The West did not know what happened to them. See? The films you saw were made by the allied psychological warfare people, first intio the camps. The same was the case on the USSR side. These images were used to denazify Germany and other countries. It was called 'The Collective Guilt Campaign'. It was done to scare them off statism and turn them towards Liberal-Democracy (economic libertarianism i.e. anarchism), the very thing which Hitler had been fighting along with Jewish Bolshevism (which served the same anarchistic purpose in Russia in 1917). Whilst clearly there were dead bodies in the camps, these were not people Germans can killed per se, these were people who had died from diseases like typhus, dehydration, etc - probably becuse of the success of allied bombing of supply lines etc. This has been said many times now. Try to take in the propaganda dimension - the Soviets and the Western allies did collude, that was what the trials were all about. Of course tere were some war criminals and war crimes, there always are, on both sides. That is not the point.

    What is important for the points being made here, i.e. how the allies used fear/horror to scare vast populations off a political ideology which was at odds with their free-market anarchism, is how propaganda is used politically. Hence the Von Mises website cartoon of Hayek's 'The Road To Serfdom', which served General Motors interests quite well too. This whole business is far more sophisticated than you appear to have appreciated. You just don't appear to know the history. Try looking some of it up, e.g. what most historians say about the IMT (war crime trials)


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