Andy Murray - Scot or Brit?
Tonight on Newsnight we will be discussing Andy Murray and the English - is it just a marriage of convenience?
Tell us your view on the Murray Britishness debate here.
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Comments
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He's obviously both. As long as no-one claims he's English, or emphasises the Scottish aspect if he loses, I don't see the problem. It's a completely false dichotomy.
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Andy Murray is a quintessential player of tennis. Yes he is a Scot. I think however he will be remembered more for his Tennis playing than his nationality.
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Scotland is part of Great Britain. Therefore, Scottish people are British as well as being Scottish. So Andy Murray BOTH a Scot and a Brit. If anyone were to call him English however, that would be clearly inaccurate and probably make him angry!
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He's British. That'll do, so long as he's not playing an Englishman in the final...
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Would the Scots be cheering for an English player on the basis that he was British? - or would they be cheering for his opponent on the basis that he was English...?
Exactly.
That's why, as an Englishman, I'll be supporting Andy's opponent.
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Why the debate? It couldn't be simpler......
He's British until he loses, then he's Scottish.....and if he wins the title, well then he's English......what's the problem?
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If Andy Murray was born in Scotland then he is a "native born Scot", just as I am "native born English". I do not expect him to give up being Scottish anymore than I would give up being English in exchange for being classified as "British".
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Why do people care about the nationality of tennis players at events where their nationality is irrelevent?
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Andy Murray is by nationality Scottish. If he chooses to refer to himself as British then that is his choice, but it is not for television broadcasters or any other person to assume that he wishes to be referred to in that way.
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For reasons long since forgotten the islands off the north east of continental Europe have been called the British Isles and as such those who lived thereon were known as British. However we all know that there are four distinct countries within the islands each with their own history and culture. We also know that the trend is towards greater national identity, largely because the other three countries have been swamped by the English and they now have the opportunity to reverse English dominance. To refer to Andy Murray as British is to dilute his real nationality. If it looks like a duck, swims and goes quack, it's probably a duck... If he was born in Scotland of Scottish parents and speaks with a Scottish accent, he's probably a Scot.
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Saying Andy Murray isn't British is like saying Andy Roddick isn't American. I don't hear any Americans saying 'Roddick isn't from Texas so I wont support him'.
Also, how come we didn't have this debate when Chris Hoy won 3 golds at the Olympics?
Why are some people in Britain still so obsessed with putting up barriers between England and Scotland, especially when it comes to sport? We are a small country with a relatively small population, and we need to pull our resources together if we are to challenge the rest of the sporting world, not break it up.
I'm English and quite happy to support any Scot even if they don't stand a good chance of winning.
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Why is this question asked of Scots but not English stars?
Why isn't Tim Henman, Gary Lineker, Wayne Rooney or John Terry asked if they're English or British? (I think we know the answer.)
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It's not up to anyone else to decide what his identity is. He is a citizen of UKGBI. Whether he feels Scots, British European or any mixture of these is entirely his business.
If we as individuals want/do not want to support him because he comes from a particular nation, state, continent, then that again is for us as individuals to decide.
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"To refer to Andy Murray as British is to dilute his real nationality."
I guarantee that his passport states his nationality as 'British'.
Whether he self-identifies as British or not is irrelevant. He *is*. He is also a Scot. The attempt to portray these almost as mutually exclusive, or to claim that referring to him as British somehow denigrates or minimises his Scottish roots, is ridiculous and divisive.
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#11 Nic121
"We are a small country with a relatively small population, and we need to pull our resources together if we are to challenge the rest of the sporting world, not break it up."
I'm delighted to see that you support the idea of supporting European sportsmen/women. After all the EU had far and away the greatest number of medals in Beijing - 280 to China's 100.
As President Sarkozy said The European Union therefore takes the leading position. It's a victory for sport and for the fundamental and common values of the people of the union"
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I live on the Shetland Islands, way up there at the top of the British Isles, as such I am a Shetlander. I am also Scottish and British. I support the English football team and the Scottish football team. If they play each other I am Scottish (but this is pointless as the Scottish football team is, to put it charitably, going through a bad patch). Andy Murray is also Scottish and British, but the important thing is that he can attach whichever national, regional, tribal or ethnic label to himself he wants, it is not for us to decide. We can support him or not support for whatever reason, I for one will be cheering him on!
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Andy is British, as Scotland is part of the British Isles. Of course, if he loses then he will be "Scottish" and if he wins he will be "British".
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And apart from anything else this should be about tennis!
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Wimbledon is after all 'the all ENGLAND club'. So no doubt that some Englishmen will not cheer as loud as the rest if Murray wins. However i am a Scot and i will be watching very closely and cheering Andy on. Perhaps this addresses something a bit more fundimental. Scots are more confortable with their identity than the English. In Scotland i see the Scottish way nearly every day, if it is a bagpipe in the high street, shortbread with tea in a cafe or ceilidh at Christmas. But i feel British too, and that we are a union. So i say grow up to all those Murray haters, and also grow up in part to Andy Murray. How silly was he to say 'support anyone but England in the world cup'. But i can understand that as that was and is general feeling. Especially with all my friends. It is just a rivalry in nations, nothing more. Go on Murray
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Andy Murray is both Scottish and British and clearly considers himself as such, like most other Scots.
They're not mutually exclusive things.
On the other hand, culturally we are Scottish. I have English family, have spent a large portion of my life in England and am proud to call myself British. I still jokingly support "who-ever" England is playing at the football. Such statements are mostly meant as jokes and don't actually convey any malice or genuine desire to see England lose. I own a kilt, go to Scotland football matches, even enjoy Irn-Bru (although living in Glasgow I've still never met anyone other than tourists that eat deep-fried mars bars but no doubt many English will keep on talking about this false rumour also).
The quote in question was taken out of context by the tabloids when, in response to being teased by a few of the commentators about being Scottish, Murray made the joke about supporting "anyone but England". This was nothing more than a comment borne out of friendly rivalry, as was later confirmed by all the other people present but it has been spun into some sort of animosity which doesn't exist outside of the minds of the ignorant people that talk about it.
There is a friendly rivalry when it comes to sports like football, where we play as our constituent nations, borne mostly out of Scotland football fans annoyance at hearing "1966" mentioned every ten seconds during world cup games. The point being that the UK coverage of such things is so, understandably, England centric that jokes arise out of that like "we want England to go out so that the commentators will shut up about 1966" etc etc.
In Tennis the players represent the UK. This doesn't detract from their cultural heritage. The fact that Andy Murray is Scottish and proud of it is something that represents our country, a union of nations.
Most Scots supported Tim Henman, and probably couldn't have told you when asked where in the UK he came from. Why this should be any different I don't know.
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"It's not up to anyone else to decide what his identity is."
Identity is not nationality. If this were a question over how he identifies himself, it could easily be solved simply by asking him.
As it's about nationality, it's just as easily solved by checking the name of the nation in which he was born, resides and in whose name he holds a passport. UKGBNI. He's British.
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What a ridiculous situation this is. He's obviously both Scottish and British. Those petty minded little Scotlanders/Englanders, who are making competing pathetic claims need to get a life.
Lets just hope he loses today so that the excuse for these cretins to argue over him in the final will be taken away.
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They broke our goalposts!!!!
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British is not an nationality. It is geography like Iberian or Scandinavian.
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Sooooo then, Tim Henman was always classed as British by the media. But now that we have a Jock playing a womens game, which he is reasonably good at and he is not English-British, he is to be recognised as Scottish.
PC in this country stinks. The sooner the Jocks get their independence the better, and then they call themselves anything they want.
And I still say tennis is a womens games.
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I'm sure the BBC will tell us what Andy is after today's result, or the final if he gets through. Naturally to this British Nationalist Organization, he will be a Scot if he is not crowned champion, and a Brit if he is.
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Andy Murray happens to be a damn good tennis player ,who had the audacity not to be born in England.
Has he told any of the baying mob that constitutes the English press pack anything about his personal views ? Has he rammed his views down your throats? NO he hasn't. so why oh why do you lot feel it is your divine right to do it to him? Your arrogance knows no bounds, here's a newsflash the Irish ,the Welsh and us Scots are sick to the back teeth of being told by you lot that we MUST support Engerland in every sporting event.
NO WE DON'T AND NO WE WON'T!!!
PS
Team GB in the London Olympics football tournament?
A. What the hell is football doing in the Olympics?
B. If you lot trust anyone from UEFA or FIFA more fool you.
Sid
PPS I am as interested in the ashes as the English are interested in the shinty.
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Hughnon, Take a look at your passport. Mine has European Union on the front. Anyway, what has a travel document got to do with nationality?
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Of course he's Scottish and nothing to do with us English. Hasn't he already publicly said that he would support any football team playing the English team exactly because he's Scottish? I share this view in reverse.I therefore regard him in exactly the same light as the Scottish football team: I'm delighted when they lose. So - good luck to his opponent.
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"British is not an nationality. It is geography like Iberian or Scandinavian."
I suspect that if I went over the bit that reads "Nationality: British" in my passport with a marker pen and scribbled in "Geography" in its place, a fairly dim view would be taken by the nice people on the immigration desk.
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Why did we never have this debate about Tim Henmen or Jonny Wilkinson or Jonathan Edwards? They seem to be able to be both English and British with no media frenzy surrounding them. Andy is Scottish and British, as am I. He is not, however, English and he's perfectly free to correct people who call him English in the same way that Ewan McGregor does or David Tennant or James McAvoy. They don't get the same snide comments in the papers, I wonder why?
Some of the anti-Scottish comments and sentiments being posted on the HYS board are quite pathetic. We supported Tim and Greg, why can't they get behind Andy?
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#21 Hughnon
If you look at the text of the blog, you will note that neither nationality nor citizenship are mentioned.
The debate that Newsnight is conducting (though God knows why!) concerns "Andy Murray and the English". Who are these English that they are talking about do you think?
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I am English and I shall be supporting his opponent.
I am not xenophobic (in fact I have a keen interest in Celtic culture) but I am most definitely bored to tears by traditional Anglophobia.
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if their oil is british then so is he?
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"Hughnon, Take a look at your passport. Mine has European Union on the front. Anyway, what has a travel document got to do with nationality?"
Mine has that on the front, too.
Thing is, on the *inside* - where all of the complicated little writing is, rather than just the pretty pictures - it has an entry for 'nationality', at which point it reads 'British'.
A travel document could perhaps be said to have something to do with nationality when said travel document is required to list the nationality of the bearer inside. Also, as travel documents go, let's not forget that this one is a state-issued, internationally-recognised identification document, not a coupon for a bus transfer from Harare airport.
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#32 Oldnat
"If you look at the text of the blog, you will note that neither nationality nor citizenship are mentioned."
If you look at the title: "Andy Murray - Scot or Brit?" then you may conclude that it's not wandering too far off the point to bring the question of nationality into it.
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Obviously Scot. No question about it. There is no such thing as Britishness any more thanks to the incumbent Government.
So I'm English, and damn proud of it....
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#30 Hughnon
"I suspect that if I went over the bit that reads "Nationality: British" in my passport with a marker pen and scribbled in "Geography" in its place"
Exciting! I've never come across someone whose nationality was "Geography" before!
What kind of passport do you have? Mine says "Nationality: British Citizen" - which means I have a right of residency in the UK. As a Geographer presumably you can live anywher you like!
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As I geographer, I suspect I'd be lucky if I could get work *anywhere*.
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#39 Hughnon
LOL
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Hughnon, Yes an example of the sloppy use of the language. Confusion between State and Nation.
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It doesn't matter which - that's not really the issue.
A very large number of English people seriously dislike him and won't support him because he is Scottish.
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#41
"Nation, n.
I. A people or group of peoples; a political state.
1. a. A large aggregate of communities and individuals united by factors such as common descent, language, culture, history, or occupation of the same territory, so as to form a distinct people. Now also: such a people forming a political state; a political state. (In early use also in pl.: a country.)"
Incredibly, this sloppy use of language seems to be perpetuated by the backsliders at the OED, who foolishly claim that they can be synonymous. What oafs.
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Oldnat, What, your passport says CITIZEN? Has there been a revolution? I thought we lived in a Realm and were SUBJECTS.
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What a pointless subject for one of the supposedly leading news and current affairs programmes. Beggars belief Newsnight would waste time on this utterly unimportant topic.
If there really is no news to investigate or report on then perhaps a video of some British countryside with some uplifting music to fill dead space. There is a precedent.
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Nigelcl and all the other minority English posters who feel that being anti another nation is so bad that they should be anti another nation as well.
Why are you still posting about this "anyone but England" quote. It's been pointed out to you several times on here that that was taken out of context. It's been pointed out to you that it was a joke, made in response to some jokes by the presenters regarding the Scotland football team.
I think you're using it as an excuse to justify your own bigoted viewpoints and for that I pity you. Yes there are some such people in Scotland as well, but they don't represent the Scottish people, equally I don't believe you represent the English people and I hope that everyone reading this blog is aware of that also.
Good luck Andy. If you do well at Wimbledon it's a genuine achievement by a Scot/Brit/European/Human Being and you, and we, will be proud of you for the achievement, not for the petty politics.
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#44
What does yours say?
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I admire his ability on the Court, however, he went well down in my estimation as a person, when he hope that anyone "but" the English were sucessfull in Europe.
I feel that this is the Biggoted Scot coming out in him.
I still hope he win Wimbledon though.....for Britain.
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#44
Try this: [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
It explains the difference between British Citizens and British Subjects.
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As a Scot who has (like many around the world) lived outside the country for more years than I've lived in it I find myself smiling gently at some of the comments here. Oor Andy's comment that he basically didn't care who beat the English has been echoed many times in many lands by many Scots discussing many sports.
The Scottish sense of humour is ... well, let me just say it's well-developed ...
Goes right back to the Declaration of Arbroath in 1321 ... "...for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule..."
Good luck to all the current Wimbledon contestants ... may the best man win! And if it happens to be Oor Andy?
Then of course he's Scottish!
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I agree his ability on the court is excellent. Does anyone know if he has his tennis racket graphics designed in Kent? Confoogle.
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Hughnon, Thanks for the OED reference. Confirms my point, Scotland is an distinct society, a natural community and therefor a Nation. The UK (not Britain) is a system of governance and a State.
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I find this offensive as a topic choice.
I find it twice as offensive in that it is the topic choice of a supposedly heavyweight programme .
Andy Murray is Andy Murray and he plays not for Queen and country but for himself , just like every other individual sportsperson.
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This is the man who when asked about the English football team said that as long as they lost, he didn't care who beat them.
I will be cheering for his opposition, whoever that may be.
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It would be interesting to see this Scotsman play an Englishman in the Final.
(Irishman)
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#46 NCA999
We are in agreement! (Hope that doesn't shock you too much!)
I suspect that tonight's Newsnight bit on this will be during the Newsnicht opt-out, and will take Murray's status among the English, as a focus to examine English identity.
On both your side and mine of the constitutional debate, we are comfortable with our identity/identities as Scots or Scots&British. I think many of our English cousins haven't really come to terms with theirs yet.
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#52
Confirms your point that conflating the two is sloppy language when the definition makes them synonymous?
Are you an MP or something?
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CHECK HIS DNA
He looks half Innuit and half Hottentot to me. Oh help - am I really on here?
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oldnat
That made me smile! It's good to know we can agree on something :)
It's just a shame that, despite me posting up again pointing out the facts to some of the ignorant people posting on here mr brijo74 was still unable to read it and persisted with posting his own bigoted post in an apparent protest against bigoted behaviour.
Hunting out an excuse to make your points to the detriment of a hard-working successful British sportsman, regardless of which home nation he comes from, is nothing short of shameful.
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Two Olympiads ago, I learnt a useful moral lesson. I was watching the synchronised diving, and the British pair were nearly winning. Then it was the turn of their nearest rivals, and I found myself hoping these rivals would make a mistake. I realised that I was hoping that something would be less beautiful than it might be, and was thoroughly ashamed of myself. If people are doing splendid things, it doesn't matter where they were born.
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I would also like to echo the comments that this is a disgraceful topic for a so-called serious news programme and if it turns out as I suspect will be the first time ever that I will be writing in to complain about BBC broadcasting.
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#57
No, Nation and State are not synonymous. A nation can also be a state, hence the Nation State, or it could be part of a multinational state. Now would you describe the old USSR, a nation or a state?
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#62
The OED claims the two can at times be synonymous, contrary to your opinion that conflating the two was sloppy language.
It turns out that this is not the case, and that you are wrong. However, we would like to thank you for playing.
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#62 rochcarlie
As often, the terminology in English is complicated by the Americans, since "state" has a very different meaning there.
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Just checking
Born Glasgow, which is south of Perth.
So he's not from round these parts.
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I think that, if he does win, he should be made to play off with Gordon Brown in a second final. Then he might get a bit of English support.
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Tonight on Newsnight we will be discussing Tim Henman and the Scottish - is it just a marriage of convenience?
Tell us your view on the Henman Britishness debate here.
Substitute "Henman" for "Murray" and "Scottish for English" and the, "not one of us", tone of the quote shines through because it highlights how odd it is. Strangely enough there was never a debate about Tim Henman's Britishness or how he got along with the Scots.
It proves two things. The BBC are irredeemably anglocentric and that only those born English are accepted as British without a murmur.
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He is Scotch, hardy anyone I know declares them self British, English please!
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The translation of the Gaelic, 'Coit do'n buin sibh?
Is, where do you belong?
Not, where are you from?
Going back to the pre Roman, the Celts were a culture not a physically defined nation or state.
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he's not a tennis player..he's a very naughty boy, he will a scot when he goes out and a British person when, or if he wins Wimbledon. To me he is none of these things as he is a werewolf and he hovers around London's underground network preying on late office workers, and he scares the kids when he howls......
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defineately a Scot , Britain died a long long time ago.
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#68 Gantax
"He is Scotch, hardy anyone I know declares them self British, English please!"
'Scotch' is a drink.
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I'm English and I'm British. He's Scottish and also British. Equally, you can be a Yorkshireman, English and British. It's a bit of a silly debate in some ways.
I see he's just lost to Roddick, and that's a shame. Unlike many Scots, who tend to support any opponent of anyone English, I'd have been quite happy to cheer his success.
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The olympic football must be British. Ireland Scotland Wales will not take part as they do not see themselves as British.So we will have a GB team of Englishmen.If we win it will be called a British win even though it is an Engish team.
Sport in England on the BBC is Welsh Irish and Scottish. Try and watch an English game on the BBC not covered.
As an Englishman I want an end to the BBC licence so I can afford SKY and watch England play rugby and football Cricket on the TV.
English International sport is not catered for on the BBC.
If you are English you have to be British or you do not exist.
Andy Murry want to be seen as a Scot who does not want to represent Britan.
Fine so long as English people in England get to watch England in preference to the other 3 nations.
Murray can be Scottish but when England play in the olympics With no support from Ireland Wales or Scotland the at least let us call this an Englsh team not a GB team.
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He should join his brother and play with the girls
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Indeed, it is a marriage of convenience on his part. To get the Wimbledon glory he is British, otherwise he is not. Not at all!
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duskyblueskies wrote: "If anyone were to call him English however, that would be clearly inaccurate and probably make him angry!" I ask, would it make him angry the other way around? I bet not.
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Thrilled that Roddick won. Murray's sudden Britishness is a cynical attempt to win support. Now perhaps we can return to impartial commentary and genuine tennis fans instead of baying Centre Court crowds and claims that we are on the brink of an historic moment.
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He is Scottish & British as am I & proud of it.Why cant you be both?.Being British is being part of a United Kingdom,being Scottish,English,Irish,Welsh is what makes this such a great country regardless of what the doom merchants say.
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#74
Your right. GB is a nonsense, it is not a state, a country or a nation. An entity called GB does not have a seat in the UN or EU. It's the largest of the British Isles and I am not even sure of its geographical extent and if it even encompasses some of the smaller stuff round the edges.
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Andy Murray has made it quite clear that he dislikes to be linked with anything English or indeed British. He has done this on numerous occasions when say a reporter dare ask the question or imply that he is or supports anything but being Scottish.
At the end of the day, like the majority of "British" people, I will always support any other British player or team even if I don't necessarily support them i.e. Man Utd in the Champions League. Ultimately, I would far rather a Briton win rather than another European team/player or American team/player.
If the Scots particlarly continue with this boring rhetoric over and over again, then they have the choice to make about ACTUALLY separating from the rest of Britain and going it alone. We all know it won't happen because they just simply couldn't cope without the rest of Britain's financial support!
Enough said!!!
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#77 GGARUSFR
"would it make him angry the other way around?"
Why would anyone want to call him "hsilgne"?
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#81 eltonia
I think you have missed the point (don't worry, everyone does that when their identity is vulnerable. Lashing out is quite common in this condition).
This isn't Scottish rhetoric - it's English! Read the text of Verity's text.
You may have missed the exchange between NCA9999 and myself above. Politically we are on opposite sides of the constitutional debate, but we're both quite comfortable with our positions on the "Britishness" thing.
Your economics btw are wrong, but I doubt you are in a state to indulge in rational debate.
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#81 eltonia
When has he done this?
The only thing anyone here has been able to point to was a single quote about the England football team. A quote which has been pointed out to people like yourself to have been taken entirely out of context, which was said in response to mockery of the Scotland football team and which was meant (and received by the people present) entirely as a joke.
You guys know this, not least because I've pointed it out to you several times on here.
What kind of an ignorant comment is "couldn't cope without the rest of Britain's financial support"? I would argue that people who form their opinions from headlines in the Sun like yourself are probably the ones less likely to be able to cope by themselves. Whether Scotland would "benefit" or not from being independent is probably something which changes year in year out but the idea that we would be incapable of surviving is ludicrous. A country thats a significant part of one of the worlds largest economies, has an excellent academic and industrial base, has North Sea Oil and North Sea Fisheries, as well as expertise in many up and coming areas like green energy development would most definitely be capable of surviving by itself.
Ignorant comments like yours are what causes upset and bigotry, nothing else. I suggest you go and learn your facts before you throw any more abuse at Andy Murray, or by extension the people of Scotland.
The majority of Scots don't have any desire to break-away from the UK and never have, that doesn't mean we can't have our own identity. It's not our fault that you guys have let your own dissapear. Stop blaming us just because you're upset that you think we're doing better and start doing something yourself to fix it.
England is a great country, with great resources and great people. Unfortunately it is also the home of tabloid newspapers and scare stories. Be proud of your home, don't complain to your neighbour about theirs.
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Andy Murray's currently Scottish - and British - but for how long ?
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Message to Scotland -In this United Kingdom of ours we ask you to do just one little thing, and you can,t even get that right, it was only a tiny contribution we asked of you, and you messed it up so be off with you, independance is granted, bring back the Italian bricklayers,
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#81- Eltonia- oh dear dear dear, you should stop and listen to yourself.
"we all know it won't happen because they simply couldn't cope without the rest of Britain's financial support"
That will be why labour,Tories & to a lesser extent the fib dums won't even allow full fiscal autonomy to be discussed never mind Independence.
GB plc is so close to bankruptcy they and you cannot afford to let Scotland ,the subsidy junkies or the beggar state or any other right wing garbage that you the English get fed daily,walk out of the union.
if Scotland or the Scots are so bad and such a drain on Great Britain plc why the hell are all your politicians so determined to keep us.
for once in your life think for yourself don't let the mail,express,telegraph etc etc and of course good old aunty beeb fill your head full of nonsense.
"ENOUGH SAID "
Sid
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#84 NCA999
We'll have to stop agreeing or we'll get a bad name in Scotland - where we are supposed to be bitter enemies :-)
More seriously, it's always surprised me that the Tory and Labour line so frequently used in Scotland "stick with the Union, we'll take the English for lots of money" (I first remember hearing it from the Tory MP for South Aberdeen in 1964) took so long to filter south of the border, where they didn't want it heard. Not only was that line immoral (as well as wrong) but was always going to be counter-productive for your side of the debate.
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#24 - rochcarlie
Ah, but the British passport is soooo much nicer than those nasty Scandinavian and Iberian ones, don't you thing?
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#89 threnodio
Nice return of serve, sir!
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#89
They all look the same to me and have EUROPEAN UNION on the front.
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From the top deck. No. 15. Friday, 3 July 2009
Somewhat more important things IMHO than Mint Mania
Forced Marriages .....
Is it the case that the increase in the number of women approaching the Forced Marriage Unit is an indicator that these women are being westernised, learning to appreciate the freedoms of the UK or just plain fed up with their parents living in the Old Country? Whatever the reasons, it is women taking action for themselves and they deserve all the support we can give them.
Mr (B) Johnson .....
4807 pounds per hour! Hard to realise that with his build he is such an in demand footballer! And the GBP are just so, so, so concerned about Bankers bonuses, HMPs expenses and straight cucumbers! An appropriate thought ......Bananas?
Ms (K) Usher.....
It is common practice to find out what demands your job will make upon you before applying for it. How come you Q .... really enjoyed .... unQ the job but the extreme demands that take away from your responsibility to be a proper parent took six months of consideration and deliberation to come to the conclusion that your family is more important and yet you will still do the work of an HMP for about another year before chucking it in which is more in the way of cost to your family? Perhaps the Relocation Allowance will compensate somewhat?
Plumbing .....
Local top deck chatter suggests that a large number of those undertaking HMG funded FE courses are from Eastern Europe. Is this an indictment of UK yoof or an indication that EU yoovz are better motivated? Or perhaps there are more long term unemployed yoof EUers claiming JSA and more British Jobs have gone to British Yoof? Maybe top deckers have just got it wrong?
Education White Paper .....
The last opportunity for HMG to improve the system before the next GE. So why have they left so many things as they are? Is there any mention of Faith School abolition? One could have said Is there any mention of Places allocation? but at least that is now going to be reviewed so, for that, serious thanks to .....
Ms Patel .....
If one has enough intelligence to be able to accrue enough money to pay for private education then how much more brain power does it to fill in a form correctly? If one does not have the intellectual acumen to accurately complete such things then one might conclude genetically ones offspring would struggle to achieve in a successful learning establishment? If no law is available to prosecute an action, sorry mistake, it does not automatically exonerate one of guilt, sorry, the error.
Buzz Aldrin .....
Plenty of airtime for the plugging of the new tome but not one single mention - anywhere? - of the ninetieth anniversary of an equally historic American aviation event that changed the world. .... The first powered aircraft crossing of the Atlantic?
150 .....
.... years for stealing money in the USA. Whats the average sentence for murder in the UK? ..... Discuss?
NN Editorial Team .....
A suggestion for items for a possible future report ....
(That is what the BBCs blog comments are for, isnt it? Giving ideas?)
Is the Islamification of Europe inevitable? ...... Discuss?
Oh! .....
Good to see the link back. Nice one NN!
Q .... .... unQ
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Nice one NN ..... Did the only keyboard in the NN Editorial office break down at 13.07?
Or was it early home time?
TGIF perhaps?
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Hmm? Finally received the Real web web page at 22.17?
Server been down as well?
Time to post on the proper blog page!
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I cannot believe that Newsnight ran this discussion. Of course Andy Murray is British, he is obviously Scottish, but he is BRITISH - stop creating such division. This rivalry between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland has got to stop if we are going to succeed as a nation. A joke is a joke but when the BBC sanctions such division then the humour becomes reality. I was in Edinburgh during the Rugby World Cup when England were playing France and was really shocked at the Scottish hatred (yes it really was that strong) of the English. Sorry for the clearances but I wasn't there!
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#95 sjb2225
"he is BRITISH"
So who are you to say what any individual is?
"This rivalry between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland has got to stop if we are going to succeed as a nation"
I suspect you are a little confused. By "we" you presumably mean those who wish to continue the political union of the various bits (clearly you don't see any of them as nations) of the UK? Yet you were there at the Rugby World Cup supporting your "bit of the UK to the south of Berwick and East of Wrexham" Rugby Team. How on earth do you cope during the "2 nations, 3 bits of the UK, and another team made up of a bit of the UK plus a foreign country" Championship? - Not surprising that you are confused!
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I wish i could Javascript a button into this page to complain about EVERY post on this stupid redundant,devisive pathetic life denying debate.
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#97 preciouschrissikins
Oh dear, you are "precious" aren't you?
A fairly stupid "debate" by Newsnight (though there are some important underlying concepts about English identity).
Your response is to wipe it all out! Stops you having to think I suppose.
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Its bloody strange that this kind of debate only happens when somebody who is not obviously English is being succesful in sport,
English tabloids would'nt have dreamed of asking Tim Henman when he was in the Wimbledon semi's if he was English or British,or what football team he'd support.He was English and thats that!
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Andy Murray's passport will state he is nationally a British CITIZEN and this official document carefully ignores any specific referance to NATIONALITY. So what's the debate about? His place of birth (Scotland)will define his nationality and it is his choice if he wishes to proclaim it to describe his country of birth.
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Andy Murray - Scot or Brit?
Your question seems to imply he can not be both ?
The banter between the Scottish and the English (and other parts of the UK) has been going on for centuries , it's abit of inter-nation rivalry , specially with football and other such old-nation sports. I take no deep offence at it.
I supported Andy , sadly this year he did not win Wimbledon , but he is only 22 years old and I am sure with his determination he will be back next year stronger and more experienced to challenge for the Wimbledon title.
PS.
I am English and British , got a problem with that ?
I haven't :)
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14 million of our money - Alan Yentob and Mark Byford Everyone
I have no problem with Marray making a mint from his superb talent Scot Brit or what not. BUT
why should we have to pay more than 14 million to two men from the BBC -
Alan Yentob and Mark Byford, come on tell me WHY ? Any BBC debate on this, any debate on making this open to us.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6638318.ece
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Pay up our mint pot of gold for showing you "our" TV or the Fuzz come knocking Everyone :
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1197531/Licence-rebel-prosecuted-BBC-finally-tackles-TV-fee-refuseniks.html
All in all were forced to pay 3.6 billion a year - FORCED - for our "entertainment" and "news" and that includes paying "talent" Ross many millions and the two above 14 million and we cant know about this.
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If Scotland were to secede from the Union, would Tim Henman be Engwalnish, Walengnish or Niwalengsh? Murray would be Scottish, and the 'British' Gordon Brown would be, rightly, out of a job.
I'd prefer 'Wales' on my passport, better still, 'Republic of Wales'!
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[At 1:53pm on 03 Jul 2009, Ftoomsh wrote:
Would the Scots be cheering for an English player on the basis that he was British? - or would they be cheering for his opponent on the basis that he was English...?
Exactly.
That's why, as an Englishman, I'll be supporting Andy's opponent.]
Thankfully, not everyone in the UK is as sad and twisted as this, as evidenced by the support given to Muray. And I and many like me have no problem whatsoever cheering for an English sportsman/woman.
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As long as Scotland remains a part of the UK then Murray should always be regarded as British, just as Tim Henman was during his playing days and I don't remember there being a debate then about whether he was British or English. However, I've noticed on both TV and radio news reports that whenever Murray is referred to as "British" it's usually qualified a sentence or to later with the phrase "the Scot" or "the young Scot". In all the years Henman played Wimbledon I can't remember him ever being called anything but "British" and the fact he was English was never referred to and it was never an issue, so I can't understand why we should be having this debate about Murray's nationality now.
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Do something Andy about your drippy way of speaking - I always fall over with boredom on hearing the first few words. Is it is an attitude thing - trying to be low key/cool or somthing? Does it irritate others?
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I'm a Scot and would disagree with the assertion of some that I'm British. I was born in Scotland and as I see it, we've been born into bondage with the English, Welsh and Northern Irish.
The Irish were British at one point weren't they? That's right. Not anymore though right? Can you see where I'm coming from here?
The British flag has more blood on it than I can recall - even more than the Nazi Swastika - yet some people can look at the Union Jack with pride. When I see it - all I see is spilled blood. That is the honest truth.
I would sooner distance myself from any assertion that I'm British. I will take no responsibility for the brutality of the British during the Boer War - or the inception of the concentration camp. I'd deny any connection with the opium wars and the millions of Asians slaughtered in its wake. I blame it for the slaughter at the Somme, The routing of Gallipoli, the advent of the Great War and its direct relative WWII. It poisoned the Native Americans, murdered it's colonists when power slipped from it’s grasp and brutalised it's "own" people when they said "enough"
It sickens me to carry a British passport and only when Scotland rises once more as a free nation will I ever cast off the bonds I was born into.
Some of my best friends are English - in them I've met some of the most decent, hardworking, funny and pleasant people I've ever had the privilege to work and live with. Some of them too despise the notion of Britain.
Let us return to individual statehood, to a partnership, nay, a friendship of nations rather than a socio-political union with a 1000 year history of subjugation and murder.
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Verity:
Andy Murray - Scot or Brit?
I am going to split the difference; He is half Scot and half British....
=Dennis Junior=
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