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Saturday 6 June 2009

Verity Murphy | 15:10 UK time, Saturday, 6 June 2009

What is coming up on our special Saturday edition of Newsnight tonight at 7.30pm on BBC Two.

From the web team:

It has been an extraordinary week in politics - six ministers quit, forcing Prime Minister Gordon Brown to conduct one of the one of the most chaotic Cabinet reshuffles in recent political history, Labour lost key heartland local authorities in a battering at the polls and Mr Brown faced attempts to oust him from a so-called "peasants' revolt" of MPs.

And that is just what has been happening in the Labour party.

Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures.

So, in a change to TV schedules, there will be a special Saturday edition of Newsnight at 7.30pm tonight on BBC Two.

Our political editor Michael Crick will be looking back at the events of the last week, analysing what has happened and what we can expect next.

Our correspondent David Grossman will be looking at the origins of the "peasants' revolt" and how much of it is due to ongoing rivalries between supporters of Mr Brown and those of former PM Tony Blair.

Gavin Esler will be speaking to those involved and political grandees including Charles Kennedy and Roy Hattersley.

Do join Gavin at 7.30pm on BBC Two.


  • Comment number 1.

    It has been an extraordinary week in politics - six ministers quit, forcing Prime Minister Gordon Brown to conduct one of the one of the most chaotic Cabinet reshuffles in recent political history, Labour lost key heartland local authorities in a battering at the polls and Mr Brown faced attempts to oust him from a so-called "peasants' revolt" of MPs. And that is just what has been happening in the Labour party.


    Gordon Brown 'is seen as a towering figure'
    The Prime Minister is waiting to see if his cabinet reshuffle quells unrest in his political party after a tumultuous week. Labour MP Tony Wright says Mr Brown's action "has led to a new, more collective leadership".

    I guess in the end it boils down to who is seeing whom as what, leadership-wise.

    As I watched a man talk about Obama Beach and the need to resist deranged dictators.

  • Comment number 2.

    There's not much point being loyal to Tony Blair if he isn't even an MP anymore is there? Can anyone work out what Neo-Labour's policies are? Can anyone work out what the Neo-Conservative Party's polices are? What about the Liberal-Democrats? Presumably we don't get to hear much about the BNP on Newsnight (except in this blog by their anti-spokesperson) because their policies would make the above three look almost identical, which might wake people up to there being something a bit fishy going on?

    Still, what does it matter if there is in-fighting in New Labour unless what they're fighting over is made explicit to outsiders who are evidently not in on the in-fighting? Are some of them secretly planning to re-nationalise everything so they can really be a Labour Party? All this pretending to be Trots or Stalinists isn't working. They are all literally out of touch with what matters in government - a state to manage.

    The last thing this country needs is Cameron's lot.

    Still, a Saturday Newsnight on the Wizards of Oz promises to be like, ...Alice in Wonderland?

  • Comment number 3.

    Questions -

    The voters of India and the United States of America have both recently renewed their mandates in their leaderships , why would it be so damaging for British voters to give a mandate to their leadership ?

    If Mr Brown is really a reformer , surly he should recognize his current claim to a mandate from the British people to rule them is morally flawed and even against the spirit of our current constitutional arrangements, that he quoted in his own defence when numerous reporters asked this same question in yesterdays press conference?

    Do we have to go back to the fundamental argument of "What is democracy" for these people to start to understand it ?

  • Comment number 4.


    This lot aren't making much headway, are they?

  • Comment number 5.

    Gordon Brown has made a pretty fair attempt at cleansing his cabinet of those MP's infected by the expenses scandal, even though some effectively jumped ship as opposed to being formally sacked. However, Brown's Corporate Nazi stock market parasite puppet masters wont allow him shoot their best friend Panda, even though he has got fairly dirty underpants when it come to expenses.

    Its good to see Peter Hain back, but he should have gone back to head of Work and Pensions given his previous experience, he is wasted on the Welsh Office. Billy sitch Yvette ( I never answer the pertinent questions ) Cooper won't have a clue about the Proposed Welfare Reforms, perhaps she's only there to provide a rubber stamp for what the Corporate Nazi's have in mind to force through with the help of the Tories. Cameron would now appear to have the problem that he hasn't cleaned out his own front bench of the likes of Gove, Duncan and Landsley. Only 38% of the national vote in the local elections, and that could fester lower if he continues to back " close friend " colleagues and make excuses about waiting for party committies.

    It would appear that no democratically elected Labour politician dare take on Transport, so its now effectively run by a non elected virtual dictator. Pretty handy if you want to force through all the Corporate Nazi investment scam stuff like Average Speed Cameras and further moves towards Toll Roads. And then the proposed cut in the National Speed limit to 50 Mph to appease the eco-fascists who were campaigning for 40 Mph. " Councils will be able to determine limits in their area " so speed limits are to be set by a bunch of doddering coffin dodging top Tories ( at least in Lancashire ) intent on bringing everyone's driving standard down to their level of aged incompetence. Perhaps one of the reasons Labour lost control of Derbyshire was cutting the speed limit to 50 Mph on the A515 between Buxton and Ashbourne recently.

    Alan Johnson could make a clear and concise marker for his possible future leadership of the Labour Party by immediately scrapping the pointless national Identity Card plans. Likewise Brown could quietly dispose of eco-fascist leaning Joan Ruddock from the environment team and kill any Bin Tax proposals. Bearing the above in mind it is not impossible for Labour even under Brown to bounce back and narrowly win the next general election ?

  • Comment number 6.


    If we start asking the question, what is democracy? First is the concept, it is government by the people OR their elected representatives.

    Politicians don't point out we don't need them for a democracy. Ultimately after no WMDs in Iraq the whole process was to give them a democracy. A job creation programme for politicians.

    Once you start asking questions such as what is democracy? This then opens the floodgates and perhaps we start asking what is it for? What are we doing? What are our goals, aims, objectives etc?

    We are ambling along without purpose or direction. We do not have any leaders because they don't not know where they are going. If they do not know where they are going, they have no direction. If they have no direction we cannot follow them. If we cannot follow them we do not have leaders. QED.

    I would go even further than JJ. I'd lump all the parties BNP and Green etc included in the same pile. Once you enter a short term popularity contest, what needs to be done starts getting compromised.

    Please ignore all the sanitised we have 8 or 10 years left climate models. These are 'climate only' models. Would a car be deemed safe if the MOT only looked at the tyres, ignoring brakes, steering and suspension etc. Same with planet, climate is only some artificially defined by the mind of man sub-system. There are more serious problems the media/political system don't bother with.

    We have 42 months to prevent extinction of all higher life form on this planet. That includes us. Everyday wasted by the media covering pointless political infighting, is 'one day closer to death'.

    People castigate JJ for being a radical hard liner when proposing we have a 'state to manage' #2 above. JJ is a pussy cat. 'State', we have a planet to manage, which is in a state.

    Let's put this out there. We have 42 months. If in 3 1/2 a sombre looking 'political suit' tells you that you and your family are sadly going to die due to the collapse of the planets ecological life support systems. You will have already known. If they tell you this was 'unforeseen' ( as in global economic collapse which they are supposed to be the 'experts' in), you will know they are not telling you the truth as now you are reading it here.

    For the sake of yourself, your family and the continued existence of life on this planet, become part of the alternative to the mess 'non leaders without direction' are taking you.

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 7.

    is this to keep the pressure on G Brown , we might have too many MPs but judging from the wall to wall coverage this week we certainly have too many journalists.

  • Comment number 8.

    "Our political editor Michael Crick will be looking back at the events of the last week, analysing what has happened and what we can expect next.....Gavin Esler will be speaking to those involved and political grandees including Charles Kennedy and Roy Hattersley."

    Frankly I've had enough of the continual looking at events of last week and would like my Saturday to be 'news-free'. (I recommend Sky Arts 2 to replace short-term machiavellian machinations with more enduring spiritual enlightenment). BBC2 at 7.30pm tomorrow should provide more interest, with the results and analysis of the European Elections. Not that they have any real relevance, apart from more snouts in an even bigger trough, but they should show the extent of public dissatisfaction with the Westminster bunch. I don't need the views and opinions of the political grandees proposed for tonight's Newsnigh special. Isn't it time that Newsight invited some of the regular bloggers onto their programme if they are at all interested in what the thinking public realy thinks?

  • Comment number 9.

    Idiot Vote for A politician Vote for their Job
    Its called Self Preserve

    Nice Jam

  • Comment number 10.

    #5 brossen99


    Had already had a do at the eco fascist/Green in #6above before I read your post.

    'I' bought an 85 Opel Manta for £150, which was going to be scrapped. As 'I' didn't do art history or political philosophy and did really sad things like physics, chemistry, biology. Then did a technician engineering apprenticeship. 'I' did the work and built a 130 mph supercar from it. You might think that isn't fast.

    But on most roads Lambos, Astons, Ferarris, Porsches etc etc can't get the power down. This car gets all the power down. The rolling chassis has higher spec than the power output.

    OK I now realise I have lost everyone apart from New Fazer. So only a few will enjoy this. Brossen the song had already been written if you hadn't heard it.

    So the Green/eco fascists who drive their sad planet destroying Prius, because they can't do a life cycle analysis, and their media PR (ditto) want me to drive at 50 mph.

    Let us have road transport policy to according to Celtic Lion. If you take the devils shilling by taking £2000 for scrapping a perfectly good car, you drive at 50.

    If you can go into a scrap yard and buy a wreck and make a road warrior, because you studied and have proper skills. You can drive at any speed you like.

    This puts and encourages and keeps proper skills back into society, it protects the environment, reusing and recycling, instead of throwing away. It also promotes road safety. If someone has put heart, soul, spirit and time into building their own car. They are less likely to compromise the integrity and safety of the car and any body else by doing something stupid outside of the the performance and specification envelop of the car they have built.

    You drive at 50 if you have paid total disregard to this planet by scrapping a perfectly good car and buying an eco fascist lie. You drive at any speed you want if you have built it and taken a scrap car and given it new life so you have transport without compromising the stability and integrity of the planet.

    Politicians. If you can't build a car. Don't tell others what to do with their's. OK. That is fair and democratic.

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 11.

    #10 KCL You didn't actually lose me, although I'm a bit past the boy racer stage now. I still manage to get a few licence points by driving my old Rover contrary to RTA and non-discretionary speed cameras on an almost empty motorway. The old-fashioned majistrates used to take one's character and mitigating circumstances into account. They would probably have given me the benefit of the doubt as I haven't had an accident in 60 years of motoring/motorcycling, spent years flying small planes into one-way mountain and jungle strips, and still fly a Jabiru Thruster for relaxation. Not about to junk my Rover either, as it reminds me of the days when I enjoyed the freedom of the open road.

  • Comment number 12.


    There is a paradox that runs right through human affairs: the simple folk find the 'performance' of some disturbed individuals appealing. In politics, where being disturbed - hence needing status for reassurance - is de rigueur, the effect is magnified.

    Brown has shown himself, to all but the most blinkered or stupid, to have TWO very clearly defined aspects to his character. I have previously offered detail to support this assertion. This is not new in the human spectrum of behaviours - Jekyl and Hyde were not imaginary, they were descriptive.

    The need for 'new politics' in Britain is a simplistic way of saying: "We need a way to manage the affairs of this state competently, through the agency of mature, stable individuals". What Jekly-and-Hyde-Brown flags up, as did Blair before him, is Britain's continuing dysfunctionality in the business of choosing managers.

    At his press conference, Brown declared himself working for 'DECENT HONEST POLITICS' while the good Doctor (Jekyl) held sway in that embattled mind. We have all seen what Blair did, to feed his need, applying his power; we are all watching him 'being great' on the back of calamity. What might Brown do, when he sees glory slipping away? What if Mr Hyde takes over completely?

    This is not Fantasy. We all know something of what he has done to those who thwarted him. What if he feels WE are thwarting him? Half of Brown is very dangerous, and all of him is very powerful. How does that feel? This is not something that will be solved by party politics (nor by a Sugar-coated pill, taken by No 10). It needs wisdom and philosophy - just to get started.

  • Comment number 13.

    The european gravy train seems to go on and on for the Lords Kinnock. I see Neil has taken up the cudgel on Gordon's behalf calling the the democratically elected labour MPs (who disagree with Gordon being PM) "peasants" and "gutless" ones at that. I suppose that, as a Lord, everyone else is a "peasant" to him except his wife (now), Digby Jones , Mandy, Alan Sugar et al.
    I would have been more impressed (but not much) if he had rode to Gordon's defence before the promise of a job and elevation to the Lords (both) for his wife. Alright!!! Alright!! Yeah!!! Alright!!!

    I think Gordon has got it right. The correct way to reform the second chamber is to fill it with his friends and hangers on. That is what I call a well considered anti -slease action - real democracy in action.

  • Comment number 14.


    Now Cruddas has uttered the vacuous mantra: "not people - policies".

    As I outline above: Westminster POLICY yields bad governance under dangerous leaders. Dangerous leaders use unchecked power to make their wild dreams come true - and we get wars. It is, therefore, about BOTH people and policies, hand in hand on the way to chaos and disaster.

    Oh Mr Cruddas, why not just say: "Please don't look at Brown, find some Labour policy you like and concentrate on that - please?"

  • Comment number 15.


    "... you're bound to have difficulties because the public are wanting to see the result."

    He is ALWAYS to be heard trotting out such non-sequiturs. Is this the mark of a great man? Does he not hear himself talking nonsense? Just what goes on in that head??

  • Comment number 16.

    NOTHING TO ADD (#13)

    Well said amazingoldMackem! Your reminder of Kinnochio's mad whooping is timely - redolent of Browns bootstrap utterances, in a way.

  • Comment number 17.

    #11 indignantindegene

    Thank you for your reply. You wrote so few words but stimulated so many thoughts. I will reply. Please check the blog over the next few days.

    #6 I have no idea why that comment should have been moderated. For all I write on music or cars, I love this planet and the journey of life and existence that is part of that love.

    So I would only write something which I felt would be of benefit to all that that contains. Sometimes we all have to say or do things we from an objective datum can save others from themselves. In turn accept that at times others save us from the same.

    In 2000/1 I offered my services to the UK government through official channels to prevent the present economic situation and ensure the continuation of life on Earth. They decline my offer, but still didn't produce the workable alternative.

    This has compromised my safety, that my families and friends and all life on Earth, the planet that I love, Surely in this time of uncertainty a comment of truth and reason, and of benefit to many should not be censured.

    I appreciate I only contributed to 2 Nobel Prizes in 2007, not having one with just my own name on it doesn't qualify me me for the the top table of Grandee talking heads, #8 above.

    But I have seen media of British forces or even members of insurgent groups, blindfolded being able to take a gun apart, then being able to put it together again. I don't have that precise skill. But I could do it with the ecological systems of this planet.

    Now I don't know much about political philosophy, I don't know much about quantitative easing.

    But I can use a slide rule...

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 18.

    #14 barriesingelton

    "Dangerous leaders use unchecked power to make their wild dreams come true - and we get wars."

    Haw Haw!

    This is one of those posters who frequent this page too often with their tales of how Hitler was a peace lover and revered by one n'all.

    But on the basis of previous posts the far right seeks any kind of attention - by means of any post.

    This on the day that we remembered the courageous people who fought the Nazis on D-Day.

    The BNP via Griffin used a Spitfire as a backdrop to their literature as an aside.

  • Comment number 19.

    #6 indignantindegene
    "Isn't it time that Newsight invited some of the regular bloggers onto their programme if they are at all interested in what the thinking public realy thinks"


    Good God no!

    They tend to be the far right activists who irritate normal rational human beings so that they can commandeer the page and use this as a very pointless outlet for their emotional issues.

    Holocaust "Agnostics" are not a majority or typical nor have they, or will they, turn up at a Nazi war crime trial to put their "case".

    Hitler was not a "peace lover".

    Race "realism" does not have any scientific basis. Genetic variation is greater within a race than between races and there is no scientific basis for race "realism".

    Eugenics is not at the fore front of science.

    If the BNP "had more hits on their website than all of the other parties combined" its odd that they only managed one county councilor in the local elections.

    Democracy is beloved by the huge majority and will not be replaced by tyranny.

    Usually these saddo's work off a script so pay attention - though it is a poor script.

    They don't think anyway, they just "trot" out propaganda - education liberates and propaganda enslaves.

    Many of the BNP elite have criminal records and Griffin shot himself in the eye - what more can you say.

  • Comment number 20.

    15. At 11:04pm on 06 Jun 2009, barriesingleton
    Just what goes on in that head??

    Having just viewed the footage of the short circuit reaction -'It is not I but all of you who are deranged, poor fools! I am the only one to save us! - manic grin in response to his rapturous reception at the Obama photo opp (how did that work out?), I'd say that, whatever it is, please let him, and him alone, not be allowed anywhere near red buttons as much as he is the legal composition of this government.

  • Comment number 21.

    A little bit of history, especially as the quote 'a week is a long time in politics' might now need updating.

    I was looking at Mr. Crick's 'Behind closed doors the Johnson team prepares', from a few days ago; sadly one of those where you can post a blog but not comment upon it 'as there is an election on'. Oh, the privilege of access and opportunity to enjoy a uniquely funded platform that comes from being a WUVI.

    I was just wondering what a 'Johnson team' might comprise, and if not doing the job of helping him do his on our behalves (I presume some in Government still see the value, if not need to still try and govern), who pays.

    I am suspecting that, as always, and in more than one way, it is the country. Still.

  • Comment number 22.


    I think I might call the Omnipotent St Peter A BIT RICH! But then he is, presumably, still "seriously relaxed about people becoming very, very rich".

    So what might Brown (either one) call Peter Mandelson when chewing his nails in a dark place? These are not mature, competent people in charge of their own lives - why let them have ours to play with?

  • Comment number 23.


    Andrew Marr did well, this morning, to locate some sort of heart in a sneering snake, but actually driving a stake through it proved impossible.

  • Comment number 24.

    naughty newsnight launch a sneaky surprise show?

    Is the crude coup by the market fundamentalists [blairites] because despite the complete collapse of that idea [credit crunch] they cannot coerce themselves to give it up?

    Ambitious assassins, some earmarked to be ejected for easy expenses, now wage war not for public policy but for personal profit or silly spite?

  • Comment number 25.

    mandy 3 marr 0

    looked to me team marr was completely outplayed?

  • Comment number 26.

    If there was ever confirmation needed that we are run by a 'gentlemans club' it is the news that Andy Hornby is negotiating to be CEO of Alliance and Leicester.

    Complicity in expenses.

    Complicity in all the top jobs.

    Jobs 'for the boys' in the house of lords.

    Jobs 'for the boys' at the FSA.

    jobs 'for the boys' in quangos.

    jobs 'for the boys' within the high finance elite.

    jobs 'for the boys' in europe and high civil service positions.

    Cleaning up expenses is just the tip of the iceberg, what Gordon refuses to acknowledge is that he is part of a much bigger problem not the solution.

    Gordon and the informal but very real political, media and financial elite who via conversations at cocktail parties and mediterranean yachts in the summer during the parliamentary recess really run the country for the maintanance of their own extremely privelidged position, but to the detriment of this once great nation and its people.

    It was a great nation earnt from the a sweat and blood spent from the bottom up, not from the top down, that effort was not spent in order to create a new and much larger political, media, and financial 'super class'.

    That realisation is dawning upon the backbone middle and lower middle and working class populus from the expenses scandal, it will not stop there, how much are top BBC staff paid, who are their friends? How robust are their expenses? Are they not public servants too?

    Then let us examine all the top civil servants.

    Then let us examine the boardrooms of the banks majority owned by the people.

    The longer Gordon stays and grasps to maintain power the greater the anger and resentment will become in a time when increasing job loses and failures of small business in the real economy continue, outside the headlines of course because it is not considered 'glamorous enough to be 'real news', yet it is the most important news that affects peoples lives directly.

    Lets not even mention the unreported but very real requirement for huge cut backs in public expenditure starting early next year to avoid UK Plc going bust.

    The size of the hole at that point will be so great cut backs in front line services will be ineviatable, the civil service gravy train of 'diversity consultants' and champions of street football will be gone, the private sector will not be able to grow enough to cover that loss in national income because we have become a society that mortgaged our future to have a party now.

    The current level of generous benefits to placate the growing underclass will have to be cut back. They will not be happy about that and they will use what means they have and understand to display their unhappyness. Their anger will be amplified because it is likely we will have a conservative covernment, populated by privelidged 'toffs' at that point who will not be able to relate to or placate their plight politically.

    If I missed anything in the bigger picture summarised above or if someone can tell me how 'wildly off base I am here' and explain why I am some kind of crack pot socio economic extremist I would dearly love to hear their arguments.

    From where I am sat the above looks like the real truth of the situation we are in now and what is most likely to happen in the comming year or two.

    Oh I forgot to mention England will get to the final of the world cup in 2010 also because it will be cold in South Africa at that time...

    ok...maybe I am a crackpot!!


  • Comment number 27.

    #26 correction ...alliance Boots..

  • Comment number 28.

    Don't think the next Conservative Government will have a workable majority; they'll need to rely on LibDems for support, and so some much needed horse trading will be done, mitigating the worst excesses of Lord Snooty and co.

    People, not politicians, need to become interested in the bigger picture; the current Westminster crop are, with some notable exceptions, pre-occupied with their own self-serving careers - witness the execrable performance of New Labour in their panic to avoid losing.

    Once the General Election is over, New Labour will become Real Labour and take about 10 years to sort itself out, never mind produce strategies for winning elections.

    The next 5-10 years will be tough, which makes it even more important that executive power is tempered via minority government, until we achieve a system which is centred on the maturely articulated needs of the electorate as a whole.

    Although this current government may run on empty till next year's poll, the strategies adopted so far will also allow the country to limp on till then.

    The only alternative is for Gordi to call an election this year; pigs will take to the skies sooner.

    Caroline Flint and window dressing; so what were those pics. in the Observer last week supposed to be? Looking for a job with Berlusconi?

  • Comment number 29.


    However, I think perhaps a major problem is illustrated by bookhimdano's score card at #25 above. It is possible to SEE Mandelson as winning in his exchanges with Marr; it is possible to hear him winning also. But the FEEL of Mandelson, as he 'triumphed' over Marr was beyond any words I am permitted to write here.

    This is what puzzles and depresses me about the British voter; they no longer seem to FEEL anything about political figures - they exercise no intuition. It is all 'Never mind the quality, feel the width'. Clarke is so often called a big beast; many fall for the lure of 'big' but fail to inspect the, well documented, beastliness. Tony Blair was the high priest of the 'unfeeling' masses.

    I suspect this mechanistic insensitivity has taken root in our culture, having been sustained for more than one generation, such that now it is imbibed with whatever passes for Mother's milk. That last sentence could well prove to be the perfect metaphor for our plight.

  • Comment number 30.

    #26 Jericoa

    "If I missed anything in the bigger picture summarised above or if someone can tell me how 'wildly off base I am here' and explain why I am some kind of crack pot socio economic extremist I would dearly love to hear their arguments."

    The bigger picture is the planetary ecological system. The socio economic system is a subsystem of this and is contained within it. Also related to the Womb Model. The socio economic system is contained within the womb of the planetary ecological system.

    The socio economic system's requirements, resources, food etc come from the planetary ecological womb. The socio economic systems waste products, pollution etc are disposed back into the ecological womb.

    The recent borrowing to increase consumption by Brown and G20 will collapse the ecological system in around 3 1/2 years. Extinction of all higher life forms on Earth, that includes all of us.

    Brown may be able to prove he 'rescued' the economy for a short time, but it wil be at the expense of the bigger picture.

    It will manifest suddenly as did the recent economic collapse. The difference being is that though I notified the Government of the economic collapse from 2001 via official channels, and supplied the solutions. They did not act or make the findings public.

    Now everyone who reads this blog will know ecological systems will collapse, it is out in the public domain. So we can take action to prevent this happening by collective and focused action.

    "Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures"

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 31.

    From the top deck. Sunday, 7 June 2009.

    Ms Flint finally proves that her narcissism and ego is stronger than her competence and her credibility. Worse still for her, her actions prove that Mr Browns abilities in decision making are considerably better than hers. Hopefully her misogynistic stupidity will allow more capable women to come to the front and prove that some ( e.g. Jacqui Smith, until she fell - for the large part not entirely deservedly - as a result of the media barrage. ) women will rise to the deserved level of their ability as opposed to that which is selfishly desired.

    Gordon Brown survives still, which says a lot about a lot but still the media is organising, complicit in or just too naive to realise that they are party to one of the best organised political assassinations of all time.

    Still some PLP members act for self as opposed to the continuation of what has been steady - if at times bumpy - progress. If the EU results tonight come back a a disaster for the Labour Party, as surely they will, whom will be tempted to emulate Brutus? If, as I suspect, the outcome will be the same for all the main parties will they all blame - Mr Hague started the deluge today - any vote share/seats decline as being due to the ACA scandal? Of course they will! Why? Because all the parties, but not necessarily all the politicians, have still to admit, primarily to themselves that they are grossly out of kilter with the GBP.

    If one of the UKs three main parties considerably improve their seat count with the commensurate increase of vote percentage the air will turn blue with demands for the only solution to our situation i.e demands for a General Election or Leader resignation. Both of which would be entirely fallacious and facetious demands clearly showing that MPs , yet again, would be acting out of personal, not necessarily political, selfishness rather than the benefit of the GBP

    However by indirect prediction it would the anticipated that the expected swing to the political right in Austria, Germany, Greece, Denmark, Spain, Italy and some of the East European nations ( and France?) will extend to the UK and none of the big three will have justification of their domains.

    If that occurs, with UKIP making substantial gains and the BNP securing two or more places in the European Parliament, then the trio of big boys will have to look again at exactly what the GBP are really saying.

    Alan Johnson presented himself earlier today as a strong candidate for the future leadership of labour, he presented himself well, spoke frankly and, most importantly, honestly. But he also presented a further facet of a true future leader inasmuch as he knows that he is not yet ready, he has more to learn and his time will come.

    And it will!

    But lets get out of this mess first!

  • Comment number 32.

    The Local Elections I voted for my £6.00 Electric Toaster (It only costs me when I use It)

    The Euro Elections I voted for my £40.0 Microwave Oven (It only costs me when I use It)

    I dont use Politicians (I cant for the life of me seeing them as any use)

  • Comment number 33.

    Post dirty2 Delete Euro Inert/inCert EuroPEEin

  • Comment number 34.

    Post dirty2 in 3 is someone taking/pinching the P

    Yes Politicians (its their favorite sport/PASStime/hobby/Habit)

    ADDiction (Dear Doctor Pass me the Drugs)

  • Comment number 35.

  • Comment number 36.

    dAllan169 (#32) "I dont use Politicians (I cant for the life of me seeing them as any use)"

    I suspect many don't. Paradoxically, the truth is that most of them are very useful precisely for the reason which you mention - namely, they collectively serve to prevent anything decisive/substantive being done in the name of government or, put another way, they sustain and reinforce the anarchistic processs and thus the neo-liberal free-market.

    The BNP speaches last night provided an inkling to what is really going on.

    Clearly, most people don't want decisive government.

  • Comment number 37.

    35 Post OH Yes (I Dream of Blue Turtles)

    36 Post OH Yes ( What Ever happened 2 Common Sense )

  • Comment number 38.

    dAllan169 (#37) "What Ever happened 2 Common Sense"

    Common-sense isn't as reliable as people make out. It's the dumbing down process which is now the major problem. The more the anarchistic free market grows and the more capital accumulates in effective monopolies/trusts/cartels, the more they will fund divisive parties in order to factionalise the electorate so nothing gets in their way regulatively/legislatievly. Why don't more people see this? Is it not the dumbing down process, dysgenesis?

    The BNP is talking sensibly about respecting the indigenous people, which includes all settled, nationalised and second, third generation 'immigrant' children who are UK citizens and law-abaiding. The point to focus on surely, is how divisive the Liberal-Democractic three party system and their policies really are? Why are there Black and Jewish etc organizations but not White gentile ones? Why don't more people ask these questions? is it fear? Is that itself not political? People are right to be outraged about a pernicious racism which is being used to shore up the free-market and predatory lending along with other forms of exploitation given the falling indigenous birth-rate (which really does amount to a democide greater than any alleged 'holocaust' in WWII). It is not anti-black or anti-Asian racism, it's anti-gentile white racism, and it's fomented by an immigrant white group in pursuit of anti-statist free-market liberal democracy (aka Social fascism or Social Democracy) to boot. This is politics, and it's cleverly, and disingenously done. The first thing to note is that the German National Socialist party of the 1930s was left wing not extreme right. The extreme right are Liberatrians (free-marketeers), i.e anarchists. People are being misled.

  • Comment number 39.

    I have to say I am more than a little surprised that so many parties have a problem with the democratic process, agree or disagree with the B.N.P. (personally I do not agree) you must accept that they were voted for by an amount of the electorate, perhaps instead of stomping off in a childish hissy fit or in essence call the electorate stupid, why not and this is quite radical listen to the population and maybe just maybe endevour to provide to their needs.

  • Comment number 40.

    Note none of the "political grandees" support the 2nd most popular party in Britain. As normal the BBC engage in party bias to support the political establishment. But then the BBC, undeniably, has a record of corruption that matches the press under Hitler. I would give examoples but that gives them an excuse to censor.

  • Comment number 41.

    squidthing1976 (#39) "instead of stomping off in a childish hissy fit"

    Like Caroline Flint etc?

    Like it or not, in time, more and more people will come to see that much that the BNP say is actulaly true. The population of the UK has been systematically misled by those who want free-market anarchism. Sadly, the main beneficiaries of what has been happening recently are the main protagonists of this, the Conservative Party. When you see BBC New banners proclaiming that these are the worst results for Labour in 100 years, just remember that the incumbents are not the Old Labour party (they ditched Clause IV which made public ownership of the Means of production a core policy from their constitution), but New Labour which is not socialist in the sense of Old Labour at all but New Left (see Ralf Miliband and his father and Trotskyism), it is as anarchistic as the Conservatives and Liberal-Democrats. The minority which has voted (a minority because the majority senses something's fishy but can't put their finger on it?) have been misled into voting for their nemesis I fear. Even the BNP tries to make it clear that some of their policies are just traditional Old Labour. If Labour had any sense it would have a thorough purge, and, though it may prima facie seem suicidal, it would campaign for everything which Old Labour campaigned for in 1945. Why won't they? Just look across the Atlantic and see what happens if you try to thwart the Neo-Liberal Masters of The Universe with any such nasty statist, regulative, 'guff'.

  • Comment number 42.

    An outrageous election night!

    McShane tried to blame the PR system (a poor one at that) for the fact that the odious BNP got elected. He did not reflect that Labour have been all things to all people and are now nothing to anybody - hence their heartlands are collapsing. Could they have, as Prescott suggested, campaigned more: "Stop complaining, get campaigning!". Then take a break - have a Kit Kat and claim it back on expenses. Their record is shot in all departments - if they were not partially at fault for the economic crash why change bank regulation after the event?

    Some doddering old National Socialist stood up and said the public knew what the BNP stood for - unlike the Lib Dems. One of their representatives has said the BNP are not a Nazi party and are "modern and progressive". They sued a Spitfire on their literature. Dimbleby was ineffective and did not ask them are they race "realists", in favour of eugenics, Holocaust agnostics who want to implement Hitler style policies and replace demmocracy. Griffin has said that Hitler "went a bit too far". Really!

    Toynbee seems to think the world revolves around Labour and they have a divine right to power. They created the vacuum that the BNP moved into.

    The Lib Dems could have repositioned themselves to compete for the ex-Labour heartlands but they did at least stand by their principles.

    The Tories did OK but can't guarantee a large win ata general election and good fortune could favour Labour before then - though they don't deserve it.

    But perhaps McShane is worried that the Tories might see the need to reduce the "vacuum" effect by making sure all votes count and that parties who disregard their electorate can be replaced via a deal with the Lib Dems for PR.

    Perhaps also the media will show what the BNP claim to be and what they in fact are - fascists.

  • Comment number 43.

    #38 Jaded_Jean

    "People are being misled."

    From the Cult of the Latter Day Haw Haws who promote Hitler-ite policies but never mention him.

    How many of the people who voted BNP knew what they were voting for?

  • Comment number 44.

    neilninepercent (#40) "As normal the BBC engage in party bias to support the political establishment. But then the BBC, undeniably, has a record of corruption that matches the press under Hitler. I would give examoples but that gives them an excuse to censor."

    I was disappointed by Nick Robinson's behaviour during the BBC's coverage of the MEP election results last night. Did Brons or Griffin say anything to deserve his or Dimbleby's ad hominem? What I found particularly odious was the explicit and shameless way in which Robinson looked for dirt on Brons saying there was something other than what was shown. This is how McBride and Draper behaved is it not?

    Had either MEP said anything direputable I would have had no objection to the panel being critical, but they didn't, and in behaving as they did, the BBC just appeared biased in a revealing and worrying way. The BNP should be held accountable for their policies and held to their policies. These are legal, some of which are already on the statute books.

  • Comment number 45.

    thegangofone (#43) "How many of the people who voted BNP knew what they were voting for?"

    Do you know what they (or even you) were voting for? Do you even understnd what people post to this blog? There are countless examples of your posts here which amply demonstrate that you do not.

    That should concern any rational person. I am providing you with helpful feedback.

  • Comment number 46.

    Last dedicated posting from the political editor:

    Norwich North: an easy gain for the Conservatives?
    Michael CrickFri 5 Jun 09, 04:36 PM

    To be fair, that was just four days ago.

    And they say a week is a long time in politics.

  • Comment number 47.

    Looks like the same old crews voted for ukip and the fascists while loads'n'loads stayed at home; not exactly representative or sufficient for a rousing chorus of "Tomorrow Belongs to Me", but enough of a fright for the mainstream parties to get their act together before next May.

    How can anyone not know what the fascists stand for? BBC News had them on today frothing about "indigenous Britons" as opposed to "Africans and Poles" - people who vote for them know exactly what they stand for.

  • Comment number 48.

    ps: in case this might 'explain' some of the tumbleweed, top right of the home page...

    This is Talk About Newsnight - a collection of blogs from the team behind Newsnight. During the MEP and council polls, in line with political parties and other UK broadcasters, the BBC will not be reporting the election campaign or offering discussion about the campaign.

    Probably not needed now. Even if it were adhered to rationally or consistently in some quarters anyway.

  • Comment number 49.

    Celtic Lion #10

    Yup, I'm with you. I think it should also be made a little more plain that the manufacturers methods for attaining Euro emissions requirements are nothing more than a fudge and, in fact, achieve the opposite of what is required (cleaner air). By using only engine mapping to meet these requirements (instead of massively expensive reworked engine components) more fuel is burnt and more pollutants expelled over the whole of the engine range. Sure, carbon monoxide and nitrous oxide emissions are within spec at the required engine speed / throttle openings but this is only possible at the expense of the other areas of the power rev range. Overall these 'cleaner' engines cause more pollution. I have a fairly modern Japanese motorcycle which was manufacturer mapped to meet Euro III emissions requirements. Apart from it being extremely difficult to make smooth starts I felt the engine wasn't giving of its best. So I removed the factory exhaust system and replaced it with a third party system. (It's still very quiet.) The engine mapping was completely revised with the addition of a couple of clever little black boxes. As a result the bike is more tractable, faster and returns MORE miles per gallon than it did originally. Less fuel burnt, less carbon produced - makes sense to me.

    Here's my idea on speed limits. Pass the DoE test and you go at 50. Pass the IAM test (or RoSPA Bronze) and you go at 70. Pass RoSPA Silver and you go at 100. Pass RoSPA Gold and it's no limit.

  • Comment number 50.

    #45; rational as defined by the Gene Genie meaning, perhaps, "[he] saw the gassings, with no hate or fanaticism, as the only rational solution and argued - equally rationally - that as the prisoners were going to be gassed anyway, there was simply no reason not to use them first for medical experiments". This is SS research pathologist Dr. Hans Munch, describing the rational approach adopted by Joseph Mengele at Auschwitz, to Gitta Sereny.

  • Comment number 51.

    'Paine was an international bestseller long before the days of Dan Brown or Jackie Collins and is the only Brit to have been quoted in Barack Obama's inauguration speech earlier this year.'

    I think Paine said "Lead, follow or get out of the way".

    I think Brown would add " ... or dither and hope for the best".

  • Comment number 52.


    kashibeyaz (#47) "How can anyone not know what the fascists stand for? BBC News had them on today frothing about "indigenous Britons" as opposed to "Africans and Poles" - people who vote for them know exactly what they stand for."

    You do not appear to understand what the resentment is.

    What Griffin said is exactly what those voting BNP (and there are many more who see this than will vote BNP) will have been endorsing, namely that whilst there are Black, Jewish and Asian activist groups, it is illegal or highly politically incorrect for there to be White activist groups.

    There are large numbers of 'indigenous' Britons who see other groups getting affirmative action at their expense. Do you not see how that breeds resentment? Many see this as provocative and political, i.e it's a way for those with such policies to actively subvert the state, effectively using demographic warfare. It's a classic anarchistic political strategy. It was used in the USA in the early decades of the C20th, it is effectively International Bolshevism which oddly enough has nothing at all to do with Communism, just anti-statism (which is how the original jewish Bolshevisks were used by the Germans in 1917, i.e to bring down the Tsar and get the Russians off their back in the East) and it is still being used by the same minority group to gain hegemonic advantage, abusing other minority groups as 'useful idiots'. Look into the drivers of predatory lending in the USA in the wake of the CRA and repeal of Glass-Steagall in 1999 under Clinton, and the demographics of both NYC and London. What you have failed to take on board is that Hitler, like Stalin (busy getting rid of the COMINTERN between 1934-1939 himself, but only the head of a party so not a dcitator), was trying to protect his own people via left wing National Socialism (like Old Labour) against subversive capitalist anarchism (the right wing) aka international finance. It is peddled today in an Orwellian, opposite way, in Liberal-Democracies for what should be obvious reasons but which clearly are not.

    You are politically naive. Wake up.

  • Comment number 53.

    #6 Celtic Lion

    Wow after 2 days it has been decided that my post was OK. I thank you.

    (Is GB a mod?)

    #49 New Fazer

    Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

    Everything you have written I have found with every motorbike or car I have ever worked on.

    One reason why I had my do a short while ago over ecological limiting factors (increased CO2 increasing plant growth etc) was because the same principles apply to engine tuning.

    If you increase the fuel flow, you have to increase the air flow to burn it, then you have to increase the exhaust capability to remove it, you have to increase the spark to burn it etc. (or in what ever order of the non linear dynamic process you are altering the system). If one of those is not the limiting factor no need to alter it.

    You constantly remove the limiting factor which is holding back the efficiency/productivity of the whole system.

    Though in the last paragraph I may as well have been talking about politicians. I have a reply to #11 indignantindegene but I am not sure if the mods would just cut and paste me to the Top Gear blog.

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 54.

    kashibeyaz (#50) Is it not the case that if people like Munch do not affirm 'gassings' when questioned in Germany, they are likely to be prosecuted for denying the holocaust? This is how the modern Liberal-Democratic narcissists'/anarchists' inquisition/witch-hunt works.

    Incidentally, Gitta Sereny is the step-daughter of Ludwig Von Mises (Jewish), the guru of Austrian School anti-statist economic anarchism who ultimately helped bring you the Credit Crunch ;-)

  • Comment number 55.

    Inevitably there will be masses of discussion relating to the EU elections and other elections but I have never seen, heard, or read any significant comment of the fact that only 35 t0 approximately 45% of the electorate vote. This means that about 1 in 10 voters supported the conservatives in yesterdays elections; 1 in 13 or 14 supported UKIP; and even fewer supported Lib Dems, and a disappearingly few support fringe parties

  • Comment number 56.

    #49 New Fazer

    Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance 2

    The emissions are optimised for the narrow speed band specified for the test.

    This does not necessarily mean the efficiency of the engine is optimal for the full range of real life road conditions.

    Now about education, national curriculum, sats, exams...

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 57.

    #52; "...original jewish bolsheviks were used by the Germans in 1917"; that would be Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov aka Lenin, Djugashvili aka Stalin et al? Don't think they were Jewish, Gene - or maybe you mean Leon Trotsky, a Menshevik stalwart until 1917, when he joined the bolsheviks because they were "becoming less Bolshevik" as he himself rationalised after the event.
    "Hitler was trying to protect his own people via left wing National Socialism against subversive capitalist anarchism" - which is why he engaged IG-Farben to build facilities at Auschwitz of course.

    You are historically ignorant.Go back to sleep.

  • Comment number 58.

    #52; could you name some of these "Black, Jewish and Asian activist groups" please, which advocate fascism like your crew does?

  • Comment number 59.

    CL #53

    At risk of being exiled to the Top Gear blog along with yourself... The major problem with the FZ1 was the 'detuning' of the R1 engine used. The inlet tract is too long for injection so when the throttle is shut and the engine is on overrun, emissions are required to be zero and it is accomplished simply by switching off the fuel. This dries the inlet tract so when the throttle is opened again the first rush of fuel is absorbed by wetting the tract walls. Hence a delay on power delivery while the throttle is still being opened then suddenly the power comes back - all too suddenly. Many the unintentional wheelie before the mods were carried out.

    OK - back to who should run the country.

    PS indignantindegene seems to be even older than I and he flies a Thruster with the Jabiru engine - what fun! Good man.

  • Comment number 60.

    Instead of immature hectoring at hapless Brown supporters, why not ask why so many people who are unhappy with Labour did not vote for the Tories?

    If they did not vote for Cameron, may they revert to Labour if he does not come up with policies they can believe in? If we end up with BNP MPs and the balance of power in the hands of UKIP it will be Cameron's fault for failing to get his message across (it has to be better than 'I'm not Gordon') more so than Labour's whose sell by date was due to be up anyway.

    That is the real issue, not Brown's struggle to survive. He will be gone this time next year anyway, but will we have a longer term source of instability? The challenge for Cameron is to answer the valid concerns of UKIP supporters without accepting their over simplified solutions.

  • Comment number 61.

    Why is this blog site so out of date?

  • Comment number 62.

    I have just signed on to this site and I do not appreciate how far behind the dates the comments are

  • Comment number 63.

    Help me
    This is the first time I have visited a blog.
    What am I supposed to do?

  • Comment number 64.

    kashibeyaz (#47) #52; "...original jewish bolsheviks were used by the Germans in 1917"; that would be Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov aka Lenin, Djugashvili aka Stalin et al? Don't think they were Jewish, Gene - or maybe you mean Leon Trotsky, a Menshevik stalwart until 1917, when he joined the bolsheviks because they were "becoming less Bolshevik" as he himself rationalised after the event.
    "Hitler was trying to protect his own people via left wing National Socialism against subversive capitalist anarchism" - which is why he engaged IG-Farben to build facilities at Auschwitz of course.

    You are historically ignorant.Go back to sleep."

    Really? Look up anarchism. It is anti-statist, it is pro free-market. Germany, like the USSR ran a Planned Economy, it was anti-Bolshevik/anarchist not anti-Statist. Germany wasn't even anti Stalinist, it's just that Stalin wasn't completely in control. He was not a dictator. In fact, the USSR brought Ford over after Trotsky's exile (and DuPont). You just don't understand how economies work. China runs a Soviet, Planned/Command economy. It too is anti-capitalist. learn how to use these terms properly.

    Stalin purged the Jewish Bolsheviks much as Old Labour tried to purge Militant Tendency - Stalin was just more successful.

    As to the revolution...:

    "On January 21 the Chief of the Imperial General Staff, Sir Henry Wilson, noted in his diary that Waizmann, 'the Jew who is running the Zionist Movement', had been to see him, and 'admitted Bolshevism was being run by Jews'"

    A little later, Gregory (a key player in the 1924 Zinoviev Letter affair), which led to the downfall of Ramsay MacDonald's ILP (which Stalin allegedly regarded as a Trotskyist front), as well as the
    weakening, ultimately of the Comintern before the purges of the Bolsheviks by Stalin in the 1930s:

    "The Jews deserve all they get. Their whole influence in Eastern Europe during the war was against us and our allies: nearly all the German and Austrian spies were Jews: and now they are busily engaged in undermining the foundations of European civilization. It is little wonder that the two races [Russians and Ukranians] which have suffered most from Jewish espionage and then from Jewish Bolshevism, should take a truculent revenge on them."

    J.D.Gregory-Senior Foreign Office Official, Feb 3,1919. Cited in Gilbert, p. 120.)

    In October 1919, the British representative in Georgia, John Wardrop wrote to Lord Curzon saying "I cannot too strongly insist as I have been doing for last two years that nearly all the present misery of world is due to Jewish intrigues....In England and America as well as in this part of the world a diabolical plot is being carried out for (? ruin) and enslavement of Christendom". Martin Gilbert (1978) p. 125. This was a senior FO Civil Servant advising his Foreign Secretary. This was after saying that if the "'Bolshevism of German-Jewish intrigues could be crushed in the Caucasus, the beneficial result would at once be apparent as far as frontiers of India and China'"

    Being helpful, here are some more pointers:

    Just a bit of history, and there's more, Churchill, look up what Lloyd-George had to say about the revolutionaries. Even Israeli papers will tell you, not to mention Solzhenitsyn.

    Why do you not know this?

  • Comment number 65.

    kashibeyaz (#58) "#52; could you name some of these "Black, Jewish and Asian activist groups" please, which advocate fascism like your crew does?"

    Your ignorance (and arrogance) really is astounding. Go and look them up for youself - these groups are everywhere. 'Fascism' has nothing to do with this. As you use the term it's just a smear-term. Go and find out how Italian Fascism, German (Hungarian and Bulgarian etc) National Socialism, Japan's militarism, and Roosevelt's NRA were essentially the same political response to failing economies brought about by predatory economic anarchism engineered by guess who? This is why Jews were vilified, not because of their religion or anything else, it was because they were seen to be disproportinately the beneficiaries. It was a ratinal response based on population base rates and wealth/power. The German programme was essentially a) a resettlement programme of West European Jews and b) a war against Jewish Bolshevism and the COMINTERN.

    Unless people grasp the truth of what happened in the past they are unlikely to learn from it. What has been happening in recent years is worryingly close to what happened in the early decades of the C20th. You appear to be in denial.

  • Comment number 66.

    kashibeyaz (#57) Here's another point which reveals what an intolerant person you are:- if the majority of an electorate wants a 'fascist' or 'National Socialist' MP, MEP or even government, who are you to tell them that they can't have one and what right do you have to insult them?

  • Comment number 67.

    #59 New Fazer

    Had Honda 740/4 F2 (SOHC) when I took the carbs off to polish them to mirror finish to contrast the black of engine more. Noticed how the accelerator pumps worked. These were to take out the flat spot when going on to main jet (again US emission regs). I pressed the plunger and got a jet of petrol from all 4 carbs.

    These were activated by a spring damped and balanced by another spring (for return) that came off the slide activator arrangement. After a rummage through the odd and ends box a spring from a broken Buckaroo game was found that fitted over the existing spring. Once I got the length right. The flat spot eliminator injected 4 jets of petrol 6-8 ft long for 5-6 seconds.

    With Yoshimura power pipe, KN block filter, Maxidwell ignition at close to RoSPA silver speed, all was required was to quickly snap shut and open the throttle. A nitrous type surge, giving the SOHC engine the roll on torque and acceleration of the Kawasaki 1000s.

    At silver speed even 8 seconds of arm tugging poke covers a lot of ground.

    Oh yes the stushi at Westminster...

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 68.

    #61 mtobias wrote:
    Why is this blog site so out of date?

    Because it is the BBC's opinion of what leading edge political analysis and strategy is.

    Or did you mean why the comments take so long to be moderated?

    May be they see it as their flagship political blog and want to make sure no one puts anything on here that could be revolutionary, decisive, radical, sensational, sensible or boat rocking in a non Blears sort of way. Or just practical and workable which would expose the professional politicians and the establishment narrow cartel of ideas they use as studio guests for what they are.

    Welcome to walking the Newsnight line.

    Celtic Lion


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