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Monday 8 June 2009

Verity Murphy | 17:57 UK time, Monday, 8 June 2009

Here's what is coming up on the programme:

From the web team:

Voters in European polls have delivered a damning verdict on Labour, with the party suffering its worst post-war election result and getting beaten into third place by UKIP.

The poll also saw the BNP gain two MEPs - the first time the anti-immigration party has won seats at national elections.

Labour's dismal showing, in which its vote share was just 15.3%, has triggered more calls for Prime Minister Gordon Brown to step down and cost him another minister.

Jane Kennedy resigned as environment minister saying that she was unable to continue to support Mr Brown and was fed up with "the bullying, the threats and the intimidation" being orchestrated by Number 10.

Tonight, Mr Brown will be trying to rally support at a make-or-break meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party. Michael Crick will be bringing us reaction from there.

And David Grossman will be looking into Ms Kennedy's claims about the dark arts employed by Number 10.

And we return to the housing estates in Salford we first visited in the formative days of the New Labour government.

To what extent has the government delivered on their promises to turnaround some of the most deprived areas in the country. And how has the recent political turmoil impacted on their standing with these key heartland voters?

Join Jeremy Paxman for all that and more at 10.30pm on BBC Two.


  • Comment number 1.

    Essential viewing!

  • Comment number 2.

    I am not a BNP supporter, but people are allowed to vote for any lawful candidate in an election. I do not think all the bleating from the main parties is helpful.

    I don't know exactly why people have voted for the BNP. I suspect some did so for racist reasons, but most probably did so either as an "ultimate protest vote" or because they agree with some but not all of the BNP's policies.

    However, I don't think pretending the BNP doesn't exist, or tut-tutting at them from the sidelines, is going to make them go away. Perhaps instead the major parties should do what they are supposed to do in politics, and debate the actual issues with them. That way, they may well find a way of persuading people not to vote for them for good and proper reasons.

  • Comment number 3.

    From the top deck. No 2. Monday, 8 June 2009

    So the Tories gain 28% of the vote .... Hmmm! Not exactly overwhelming based on reduced turnout, cant claim to have a mandate from the people on that, can you?

    UKIP ..... Not exactly a trouncing!

    Labour .... Disaster, Abject result and collapse of the vote

    Lib Dems ..... One step forward, one step back.!

    Others ..... Almost 20% 0f the vote.

    Spoiled papers ...... ??????

    Stay at homes .....!!!!!

    Europe .... Some sort swing to - not the extreme but - the centre right.

    Seem to be missing something ......... Oh yes .....

    BNP ..... 2 seats.

    Within nano-seconds of the first gain by the BNP the exclamations of disgust, horror, contempt and shame were being shouted from any available outlet. Shortly thereafter the focus shifted back to Gordon Brown .... (Classic or what! See below.) It took a while for the spotlight to turn back to the BNP.

    Only those that are living in some sort of time warp can fool themselves into believing that the values of the extremists of the BNP have any part to play in contemporary politics. And the new converts ....? Will we see in years to come a National Socialist British Workers Party parading in masses through Whitehall? A Thousand years of .....? Medal awards for progenitisation?

    But, wait a minute, is there any benefit whatsoever to the GBP in the BNP getting two seats?

    For those whom have for some years seen the potential of the BNP to step up the political ladder the fact that we now have two BNP MEPs is an absolute godsend!

    Why? ...... The ONLY way to defeat the increase in support for the BNP is to do what Politicians and the media, most notably the BBC, whom is surely charged with responsibility of representing the best interests of the mass of the GBP - have not done for several years ( and to the point of absolute disgust in the Politicians and the media denial over the last two weeks prior to the election! ) confront the issues and BNP proclamations head on!

    To paraphrase .... The way that evil triumphs is for good people to ignore something it doesnt like - would rather not, prefers not, is advised not, chooses not - to hear.

    And on this maxim the Politicians in particular, and the media, are Guilty.

    Consider this premise: Put aside the Additional Costs Allowances issues, set aside the purported clamour for a General Election, forego temporarily the global overdraft, momentarily mourn no more for the pending demise of the planet and ignore the egos solely considering their own tenure in the Commons. What is left, possibly, is the results in the EU Elections clearly suggest the growing rejection of what is variously described as the elitist, liberal glitterati, left wing ideologists and suited-socialists

    If there is a genuine rise in nationalism - decidedly, hopefully, with a lower-case n - it is surely that many people across Europe are getting a little bit fed up with the changes imposed upon them and the consequent effect it is having on their - individual - lives.

    The British peoples have never been racist, Period!

    Yes.... they have had their moments, sometimes some have followed the wrong course, sometimes confused or ill-informed and, occasionally a few lunatics have tried to take over the asylum but the British are not racist, Hey, we even get on with the French ..... They just want to be heard! Hence .... BNP MEPs times 2!

    And this morning, possibly for as long most listeners can probably remember, the Today programme gave more air-time to the rise of the extreme right than certainly I can recall!

    If one is told that all you can afford to put in your childs lunch box - crisp, soft drink and processed meat products - is killing your children prematurely and you then hear that one family of eight is living in a detached house and costing 150k plus in state benefits.... If you have run out of cash a week before payday and then see five illegal immigrants on TV jumping out of a lorry and being released because there is no system - until recently - to deport them ...... If you are in B&B with your two children because you have lost your home and the you find out that an Immigration Reception Centre has yet again been burnt down because the residents are not happy with the living conditions ...... If you apply to a building site for work and the person interviewing you says that they only go through an Agency which has a name you cant pronounce ..... If you have just heard that your friend has been wounded serving overseas and then you hear the Armed Forces being publically accused of raping their women ..... Who ya gonna call? ........Ghostbusters?

    The issue of immigration is not, as some now proclaim, an issue that has suddenly come about as a direct effect of the global downturn or the ACAs. It has been a topic on the top of the bus for some time. But it has been ignored, condemned as racist, sidestepped and periodically suppressed for, entirely selfish, political reasons and pushed away from the spotlight for far, far too long!

    The Tories have been politically vacuous on the matter, the BNP have offered an edited policy, the Lib Dems are lib dems, UKIP presents a selectively PC version and Labour, only slightly less so than the BBC, is terrified of being accused of ...???... by the liberal left?

    Immigration is not about ethnicity, religion or DNA .... it is solely about numbers. But far more importantly ........

    Illegal immigration is 21st Century Slavery and racial subjugation.

    It is the herd of elephants in the Pantry. It will not go away. It should quickly be brought into public debate arena.

    It is the proper and only way to stop the rise of the far right!

  • Comment number 4.

    Eccentric Expenses

    All MP's have a collective responsibility for the rapid revenge the public will seek to secure on all MPs. The patient public wish to remove all of the MPs regardless of who their leader is or where they lead? In the same way they believe a change of leader will change their fortunes so the public believe a change of MPs will change theirs?

    Therefore MPs should realise its not the leader the public want to waste. Its THEM.

    The Indigenous Immigration Into Brussels?

    The unlimited immigration the govt have signed up to is JUST as an extremist position as those who want no immigration? Neither has balance. So Govt policy extremisim has begotten extremists?

  • Comment number 5.

    Good PBS Frontline Video on Madoff here

    also other credit crunch vids there.

    like bbc used to be.

  • Comment number 6.

    15% of the popular vote for a majority ruling government with an 'unelected' PM amounts to a vote of no confidence by the people of this country which should, if they behaved honourably, facilitate a dissolution of parlaiment, an election and a new mandate from the people to run the country through the crises for the next 5 years

    That and only that is surely in the nations best interests?

    An election now wouyld allow the process of making the hard policy decisions to begin now, not in 12 months time when we are up to our neck in debt. It is in the nations best interests to have an election and the people of the nation have demanded it via the ballot box.


    Do I expect MP's to do the honourable thing, see it as such and call an election in accordance with the wishes of the people and in the best interests of the nation.

    In a word no, I expect them to grasp and grasp and grasp again to maintain power and claim it is 'in our interests' to do so.

    In gods name do the honourable thing and go, just go.


  • Comment number 7.

    SupremeChancellor (#2) "I don't know exactly why people have voted for the BNP. I suspect some did so for racist reasons, but most probably did so either as an "ultimate protest vote" or because they agree with some but not all of the BNP's policies."

    It is not difficult to understand why people either sympathise with or vote for the BNP. Even some settled Blacks and Asians are now anti-immigration, Political Correctness and naked capitalism. The majority of the country is anti-immigration in fact according to the BBC's own polls!
    See Saturday blog entries for more on the BNP phenomenon. People are angry with anarchistic 'Social Democracy', aka the 'social fascism' of New Labour/New Left because it abuses low-ability minority groups as 'useful idiots'. The Conservatives are not much different, as they too are economic anarchists, aka anti-statist deregulators in pursuit of naive consumers' money.

    The BNP vote is indeed a protest vote, but not as many make out.

  • Comment number 8.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 9.

    There's something so romantic about the BNP winning it's first seats in the EU, it's like a script from a Hollywood movie. The story of a small party battling against the odds and coming out the end of it victorious. It's a true David v Goliath story. The story of the humble natives, scrabbling together what little money they have to form a political movement and to take on the interests of giant multi-national corporations. They didn't have the backing of wealthy Russian oligarchs, or rich Saudi oil billionaires. All they had was their grit and determination, and a vision for a better future for Britain. It was a tough stormy ride, they faced a vicious onslaught from the rich and powerful media barons; countless smears and intimidation, but they held steady and refused to be bullied. They knew their vision was worth fighting for. They took on the establishment and won. Now they will be able to provide a voice for the underprivileged, ignored white working class. Representation for the forgotten and the unwanted. It has been a triumph for democracy, a triumph for the voiceless. It is a truly heartwarming tale of indigenous empowerment, it will make for a great movie in years to come. We will look back on this election in the future and feel truly humbled to have been alive when it happened.

  • Comment number 10.

    JAPerson (#3) "It is the proper and only way to stop the rise of the far right!"

    The far-right are in fact economic libertarians of the Austrian and Chicago Schools of economics! These are the very people who have been driving New Labour and The Conservatives for decades without many seeing it. Calling parties like the BNP 'far-right' is just a clever bit of PR/psychology designed to distract/confuse the electorate so they are not persuaded by the leftist staists who would have the Means of Production back in public ownership tomorrow if they could......

    The new Left is as anarchistic as Thatcher was. They asset strip the state to release capital wich was pumped into it as infrastructure durng Old Labour's heyday. Remember, the USSR's Menshevik perty modelled itself on the British Labour Party. The Bolshevik Party on the other hand were just a bunch of scored, avenging, nacissistic predators out to topple the Tsar. They were largely gone by 1939. Sadly many seemed to set up shop in the USA and UK!

  • Comment number 11.

    RE USA investigating BAE

    what we didn't see

    in this PBS Frontline show called Black Money the ex head of the UK Serious Fraud Office admits he was blackmailed into dropping a valid case.

    this show would never have been made in the uk as it goes to the heart of the interests of the British establishment.

  • Comment number 12.

    given brown and cameron are patrons of the jnf that have polices on race that would be illegal in the uk on what moral high ground are they coming from?

  • Comment number 13.

    Voters did not turn to the BNP; they polled less than last time; others stayed away in their droves; thus, as paraphrased above, all that is required for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.

    One advantage of the oxygen of publicity for the fascists is that they are seen for what they are; they can only keep themselves on a verbal leash for 30 seconds then begin to froth about immigration and "indigenous Britons"; what is an "indigenous" "Briton" anyway?

    I think what they mean is anyone white who speaks English (like, sort of) and supports fascism.

    But what do they mean?

    Weren't Britons whupped by the Romans? Then came the Jutes, the Vikings, the Angles, the Saxons, the Friesians, the Norman French -- and the Irish!

    Then there was the Hanoverian Royal Family, Liz being the latest from the line of Saxe Coburg Gotha with a Greek hubby.

    Ah yes, the indigenous Britons!

  • Comment number 14.

    Labour MPs know they're going to lose the next General Election, just a question of by how much and will they keep their seat. They know an election this year will be a wipe-out, so - hang on till next year, the rules will have changed, maybe the economy will be better, there's a better chance, albeit slim, of staying in the seat and at the very least, it gives them a year to angle successfully for a seat in the Lords/on a Quango/non-exec section of the boardroom - if Andy Hornby can wangle it so quickly, then surely a year's long enough , even for some of these mediocrities, to cadge a free ride on another gravy train?

  • Comment number 15.

    kashibeyaz (#13) ".. what is an "indigenous" "Briton" anyway?

    I think what they mean is anyone white who speaks English (like, sort of) and supports fascism."

    Here's a hint:- they don't analyse and write like you do. Colour (in the final analysis) doesn't come into it.

    Indigenous Britons.......... don't like cheats. Can you grasp that?

  • Comment number 16.

    I was off for a beauty rest, but might just stay up for this 'un.

    As I am still trying to get my head round the notion, seemingly gaining credence in the WUVI-bubble, that things have gone so bad that they are in fact now good for Gordon.

    I'm guessing the interests of the country still do not feature in this latest breathless phase of the 'show'.

    Can't wait for the next opportunity the people get to show how 'we' really think, and how that gets 'interpreted' by the media. Sadly, that can be anything up to almost a year away.

  • Comment number 17.


    the idea that uk citizens must fund unlimited migration is also unjust. the tories used mass unemployment to keep wages low. labour do it with mass migration. unlimited migration is just as EXTREMIST an ideology as no migration.

    i hear Labour claim employers say they need 'more migrants'. what they actually mean they want more cheap flexible labour that does not want holidays or sick pay.

    through migration locals can be 'locked out' of work just as they were locked out of the common land by the enclosures.

    for some reason there are some who think anyone who does not believe in unlimited migration is a fascist.

    unlimited migration is a policy of the revolutionary socialists. i remember reading in the 70's about how they believed the best way to destabilise the uk was through mass migration and then they could appeal to people who have no natural loyalty to the state. a divide and rule. or a balkanisation of the uk.

  • Comment number 18.

    I'm less concerned about a BNP win than I am about the behaviour of the Labour party. The public have spoken, Brown must go, an election is needed. Deny us that and you make Labour unelectable, not just for a term or two of office, but for a generation. Ultimately that is very bad for democracy. Labour won't be forgiven by the electorate.

  • Comment number 19.

    I heard, last night, a "Sky News" reporter say that the increase in the number of votes for far-right parties questions the democratic legitimacy of the European Parliament.

    Is it his contention that there is a 'correct' and 'incorrect' form of democracy? Are "Sky News" journalists becoming as bad as BBC journalists?

  • Comment number 20.

    gazstewi (#18) "I'm less concerned about a BNP win than I am about the behaviour of the Labour party."

    There is no positive alternative. The Conservatives will do more of the same just without as much subterfuge perhaps, the Liberal-Democrats are not credible (all Vince Cable really says is the obvious, he can't address any of it as that would be statist) and the only viable future is an ideology which is so unpopular with Obama's backers that the Old Labour MPs dare not campaign for it I suspect. We could apply to be a set of Russian or Chinese oblasts/provinces I guess, but would either have us? We have too many anarchists amongst us. It's basically an unrecognised behavioural disorder I suspect.

    Lord Myners was saying how great it was that Llyods/TSB was paying the government back some of the bail-out money - it's just got an injection of cash from a Rights Issue which was..underwritten to the sum of 4 billion by HM Treasury which 'owns' over 40% in Preference Shares!.. Lloyds shares fell sharply on the news...

  • Comment number 21.

    bookhimdano (#17) "unlimited migration is a policy of the revolutionary socialists. i remember reading in the 70's about how they believed the best way to destabilise the uk was through mass migration and then they could appeal to people who have no natural loyalty to the state. a divide and rule. or a balkanisation of the uk."

    Revolutionary Socialists are Trotskyists, i.e anarchists. See also Neocons. Only any good at wrecking other people's states. Preach freedom, Human Rights NGOs etc. Much loved by the USA.

    Very useful to anarcho-capitalists and other liberty groups. Love make-overs, retail-therapy, property-porn, theatrics, name changing etc. Very female.

  • Comment number 22.

    21 jj

    a nation arises out of a common feeling [a unity] among a group of people. break that common feeling [say through migration] and you end the state. very effective.

    the danger of mass migration is to the common feeling or the unity from which a state derives its power. which then opens the door to extremist socialism either internationalists or nationalist.

  • Comment number 23.

    One part of the problem is the way MPs can earn as much in a short year as a footballer struggles to get in a whole, long week. This is a society with cock-eyed values. We have emptied the High Streets to shop out of town and are looking to undercut that for on line shopping. Who ever believed Woolworth would be written off as too expensive? We want it now. We want it cheap. We want everyone controlled except ourselves. There is no sort of government that could satisfy our demands.

  • Comment number 24.

    Brown's team has effectively persuaded self-interested Labour MPs that if they depose him now, they probably can't get away without having a general election, and they might do less badly in one if they wait a while. That seems to be a reasonably shrewd calculation on their part. But it is making a mockery of the whole process, not just the electorate, to decide to carry on with a leader no-one has any confidence in, public or party, and none would have voted for in a open contest, just to hang onto allowances etc for another year and add a bit to their already generous pension pot.

    Gordon Brown will remain PM, having never faced a popular vote (yes, I know we don't formally elect our PM) simply because a number of his party are hanging onto their jobs for as long as possible.

    Now what will happen at the next General Election, assuming Gordon Brown limps on until then, in offfice but not in power. Suppose by some good fortune for the Labour party, there are enough racists, nationalists, eurosceptics, vegetarians and even Liberal Democrats that the remaining vote is divided between the Tories and enough other parties that Labour hangs in by a thread, perhaps forms a coalition government (with the BNP ;-).

    Does anyone on earth think the Labour party is going to say well done Gordon, we look forward to another 5 years under your masterful rule, no more muttering?

    No, they will depose him immediately after the election and elect someone again who has never faced the country as potential PM, foisting the second leader the public has not had a chance to vote on as party leader in a row. That will probably be the final nail in the coffin of the Labour party.

    Labour's legacy will be lasting possibly terminal damage to the political system in this country and possible descent into Italian-style semi-anarchy.

    I forget now who said he loved the Labour party when urging Gordon Brown to go. What we need is at least one MP in the Labour party who is in politics for something other than self-interest, and is concerned about what repeatedly denying the electorate the chance to vote for the person who will actually be prime minister is doing to politics as a whole.

    If the Labour party had an iota of integrity or concern for politics as a whole, it would have had an open contest so as to give the electorate the possibility at the next election to know who they will be voting for as PM rather than keeping it as a plot behind closed doors.

    Now why hasn't any political journalist made this observation yet?

  • Comment number 25.

    Excellent Newsnight last night - particularly Jeremy's interview with Jack Straw where he pointed out that there were 66 Labour MPs in the South of England "as many as you could get on a single bus." Deary me!!Loved Michael's report on the state of the government ..... as some were off for a pint.Also loved David's report with the guy from "The House of Cards" too

  • Comment number 26.


    Mighty Miliband D was just orating on the Today Program. Amid his sparkling output came: "IN THIS COUNTRY WE VOTE FOR PARTIES NOT PEOPLE".

    BINGO Mr M. That will be how we got a bunch of pathetic ciphers - aka ROSETTE STANDS.

    The answer is to SPOIL PARTY GAMES.

    Miliband also made clear that he would like to see ignored the '10%' (his figure) who know that this is how Westminster becomes stocked with dross.


  • Comment number 27.

    The problem with 'centre-left and centre-right' politics is that there's no significant difference between the parties, they're all equally ineffectual, which is precisely what free-marketeers want.

    Speaking of which, football (like other sports) is no longer a game, it's just a parade of pretty young celebrities sporting the adverising logos of venal borrowers who are only too happy to securitize any risks with other people's money.

  • Comment number 28.

    barrie (#26) I don't think Miliband 'does reality'. He's all spin and cliche. Like Mandelson, and Hollywood celebrities, he appears to crave the lime-light and worse, sinecure power, in his case, for the New-Left, which, by their results with the economy and demographics, evidently is anarchistic, regardless of what he says. 'Tell me markets don't need regulating' he says, but his party deregulated them! His leader was the Chancellor! You can't believe a word that this man says. He's deluded. Seriously.

  • Comment number 29.

    #27 FOOTBALL!

    Oh you've got me started. Two gangs of blokes kicking a pigs bladder wrapped up in a cow skin up and down a field. Plus I guess some over riding reptilian brain functions.

    Why is it OK, why is it stereotyped in the media that it is fine, acceptable and normal for men to be totally stupid and ignorant about the workings of this planet as long as they can discuss some thing called 442 or 4321 or whatever.

    Why do I have to pay for the back pages of a newspaper which I never read, why does the media pander to such, meaningless in the grand scheme of things, tosh.

    Why are we presented as a culture that it is even the remotest bit important? Why are children indoctrinated that football has a 'greater purpose' above all else.

    I have been reading that GB likes to surround himself with men who like to talk football. Football! I would prefer it if they preferred to talk thermodynamics, project management, bio-diversity, engineering, ecology etc. Some of the things you need to know to maintain the life support systems of the planet. Not something as pointless and diversionary from the real job to be done as football.

    If the PLP wanted (really?) to get rid of him why didn't the speak to him in a language he obviously understands. 300 red cards, a whistle and point to the day of the committee room. Early bath for you Gordon.

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 30.

    Dozy SepTicks/Terry Waite

    The computing Nerd McKinnon should be given A Job in Computer Security Anyone with A Brain can see that.

    terry wait for it

    gets my vote

  • Comment number 31.


    KingCelticLion (#29) "Why are children indoctrinated that football has a 'greater purpose' above all else."

    Is it because they're budding (and present - cf ever changing 'strip') consumers of what's advertised?

    If this was a universal interest you'd see the Chinese and other Command Economies doing it. You only see it where the anarchistic Liberal-Democracies are foisting/hawking their systems of usury. Think of Alan Stanford, think F1, think India. One tends to see it curbed elsewhere.

    The more dumbed down the consumers the better for predators.

  • Comment number 32.

    13 unlucky 4 Sum

    The Queen Mum was born in/at Glamis

    That ill do for Me

  • Comment number 33.

    It really is time now for the electorate to begin to understand how our political systems work - only by understanding the current situation can we attempt to force change on the political classes.

    All this hot air about "Brown should/must go" is utterly irrelevant if NewLab MPs calculate the coup as too personally risky, a scenario that's been made much of by the Whips.

    The only time he's likely to go is in the aftermath of a General Election, so enough over excited chattering already and start to understand how it works - then vote for change or - horror of horrors! - get involved directly. Not something the Brits have got much of an appetite for, sadly; why else would they leave it to the crew warming the benches in Westminster?

    #s 21, 22 et al. What pompous nonsense; nations, limitless immigration; what do you think has been happening in Britain since even before the Roman occupation - immigration.

    Nationhood is a nineteenth century concoction diverting the people, in some places successfully, from international solidarity to tribalism - just like football!

    This "island race" is a melting pot of peoples, always has been and always will be, despite the slaverings splattered about here and there by those who peddle their snake oil here and in other, darker corners of the world wide web.

    Scotland, for example, has become one of the most inward looking places I've visited; the Euro elections were covered from a purely Scottish perspective in the various media, it seemed no elections were taking place in England, Wales or Northern Ireland, let alone continental Europe.
    Up there they certainly seem to have swallowed Mel Gibson's Braveheart twaddle; try telling them that Robert Bruce was just another Norman French landlord and they go loopy; or that more Scots fought on the Government (not English) side at Culloden than for the Jacobite cause; or that the "indigenous" population are now living happily in Nova Scotia and Melbourne, evicted by nineteenth century versions of Robert Bruce.
    Inward looking nationalism run amok; is that really what people want here in England?

  • Comment number 34.

    2 bnp mepees a lot of p's there Bob

    nulabour got the kicking they deserve (not big enough for my likeing)

    Vote nulabour and you are a traitor 2 yourself and your country (whatever country that may be)

  • Comment number 35.

    kashibeyaz (#33) "Nationhood is a nineteenth century concoction diverting the people, in some places successfully, from international solidarity to tribalism - just like football!

    This "island race" is a melting pot of peoples, always has been and always will be, despite the slaverings splattered about here and there by those who peddle their snake oil here and in other, darker corners of the world wide web."

    It's clearly a waste of time trying to teach you anything. Island races have a massive gene barrier - an ocean. Others examples are climate and mountain ranges etc. With gene barriers come differences in behaviours, and people, like all animals, tend to assortively mate.

    For the benefit of those who don't know, the UK's indigenous population is characterised by below replacement level fertilty which means that the population is very slowly dying out. Unfortunately, that population decline is skewed so that the greatest loss in birth rate is amongst the more able. Sadly again, the groups comprising the bulk of immigrants are from countries with lower mean ability which are also characterised by higher birth rates. This is essentially genetic so in time, mass immigration coupled with high indigenous dysgenic/differential fertility is very bad for the economy and social order. These are the facts. People like kashibeyaz are cocky, igmorant and unable to learn from those who try to educate him. That is why I am being critical. He is posting nonsense. The same problem is happening in the USA, note the Credit Crunch did not technically begin till August 2007, the ETS report was in Feb 2007, Leitch in 2006. Some naively think the imported, compensatory, population can be changed by education. There is no evidence for this. All that happens is that education has to be dumbed down to hide the awful facts. The same is the case with respect to sex differneces in ability. Females appear to be doing better simnply because the standard for university entry has been lowered given that 50% now go rather than 5%. The difference comes from the narrower range in female abilty relative to males. More verbal, filler course have been created to meet market demand, and the reason? Money and credit as with cars and property. People like kashibeyaz have a naive and arrogant view of race which is based on irrelevant phenotypes like melanin. This is not what those concerned about mass immigration are worried about. People like kashibeyaz won't be told this because that's all that he sees. These are the true bigots, because they won't have their prejudices changed even when these are exposed. Watch and see.

    The British population was about 6 million at the end of the C18th. It has exponentially risen to nearly 60 million largely since the demographic transition. The problem is that the growth is skewed towards the lower end of the Gaussian distribution and mass immigration makes this worse. Mean ability and GDP/productivity are highly correlated.

  • Comment number 36.


    "..neo-fascist Europeans do not have a history of co-operation. In 2007 a group of far-right MEPs formed the Identity, Tradition and Sovereignty bloc; it broke up after 11 months when the Greater Romanian MEPs quit over remarks by Alessandro Mussolini, the granddaughter of Il Duce, who said that all Romanians were criminals.

    Now that she has left there may be grounds for a rapprochement. But the Greater Romania Party won just two seats, down from the five observer MEPs at the time Romania joined the EU. The party also may have difficulty lifting a travel ban on Gigi Becali, imposed as a condition of his bail on charges of kidnapping three men who allegedly stole his sports car."

    The Times, Tuesday.

  • Comment number 37.

    "One party likely to spurn a group that includes the BNP is the Freedom Party of the maverick Dutch politician Geert Wilders, who was banned from entering Britain in February for his strident anti-Islamic views. It won four seats to become the Netherlands second-largest party, but has kept a distance from other fringe parties." ibid

    Pro-Israel, anti-Islam free marketeer/liberal. Now that is accurately described as far-right anarchistic.

    Holland was, at one time, a Spanish colony. Then there was an Exodus from Spain in 1492. It was Holland which was the heart of European banking, diamond trade and stock market before London, and it was Holland which funded Cromwell's 'Puritan' New Model Army and Levellers which brought about the end of nasty Catholic 'Stalinist' statism in England via a revolution which inspired Trotsky and other anarchists a couple of centuries later.

  • Comment number 38.

    #35 Jaded_Jean

    The gene pool has continuously altered over the centuries due to conquest and immigration.

    It is also true that genetic variation is greater within a race than between races and there is therefore no basis in science for race "realism" or whatever you call it.

    "Sadly again, the groups comprising the bulk of immigrants are from countries with lower mean ability which are also characterised by higher birth rates."

    That is meaningless as they may well have an underdeveloped education system and says nothing of the individual abilities.

    Also you want to really stress your eugenics argument and mention you revere Hitler (not BNP literature material these days as they are "not a Nazi party") so that people can really grasp where you are going.

    You may now continue frothing at the mouth with your propaganda.

    Should Newsnight have to talk to the pariahs of the BNP I hope they will try and pin down Brons on Nazi salutes (as per National Front) and what his attitude to Hitler is.

  • Comment number 39.

    Where is McBride?

    I cannot understand how nobody has run him to ground and encouraged him to go off to the House of Commons.

    Also how about a Paul Mason update on whether G20 rhetoric has converted into implemented policies that actually make another "unique global phenomenon" less likely as we have the finance system under control?

    Is there still a Credit Default Swaps Tsunami waiting to hit us?

  • Comment number 40.

    #26 barriesingleton

    "The answer is to SPOIL PARTY GAMES."

    You mean expose the BNP for what they are and make sure people comprehend the evil that they are?

    You mean expose those that would end democracy in favour of brutal tyranny by plying discontented souls with false arguments ( "we are not a Nazi Party") hoping for some replacement Hitler to live out a 1930's fantasy?

    The Cult of the Latter Day Haw Haws has no place in a healthy society.

  • Comment number 41.


    "First, some facts. The BNP polled 948,598 votes across the country, a 6.2% share. In Yorkshire it received 9.8% and in the North West 8.0%, both enough to secure seats. In other areas they did equally well without getting elected. In the East Midlands they polled 8.7% and in West Midlands 8.6%.

    Yet it could have been far worse, much worse. At the outset of the campaign the BNP confidently predicted six or seven seats; or even 12 when hyperventilating about how their perfect political storm had emerged. Economic anxiety, job insecurity and hostility to migrant workers combined as the credit crunch kicked in. The long term legacy of "Middle England" politics, free market economics, mass immigration and a housing crisis all helped create this sense of inevitable electoral success. The absence of local elections meant turnout was always going to be low. Throw in the expenses scandal and the implosion of the Labour party even before anyone had voted and they thought their time had come.

    Before we see this as a watershed, and again ensure that the liberal press play right into their hands, let's retain some perspective. Put simply, the BNP's support hardly increased. Its 6.2% share of the vote is only slightly up on the 4.9% it gained in the good times of 2004. In the North West Nick Griffin only increased his vote from 6.4% to 8.0%. It was the collapse in support for the Labour party that allowed the BNP in."

    Jon Cruddas and Nick Lowles in The Guardian 8th June

    Looking at the BNP, UKIP and Conservative results it should be clear that what's missing is Old Labour. People don't like New Labour because it's as unfathomable as the Liberal-Democrats. Only the low turnout really explains the success of the Conservatives. The big question is why we have seen the end of Old Labour. I suggest it's been down to very effective investment in anarchistic PR since the 70s. This has fed upon fomented me-ism, aka narcissism. Hence the mass feminisation of our culture. This will end in tears. It always does.

  • Comment number 42.


    "Is there still a Credit Default Swaps Tsunami waiting to hit us?"

    Doesn't matter it's the collapse of global econgical systems you really really need to worry about.

    Can you eat, drink or breathe CDSs? No, so don't worry about them. Only be concerned about the things the politicians aren't mentioning.

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 43.

    It is simply a statement of fact that the BNP are thousands of times less supportive of fascism & nazism than all 3 Parliamentary parties & than every single BBC, ITN & popular press journalist.The BBC cannot dispute this but form experience they can censor the facts.

  • Comment number 44.

    thegangofone (#38) "That is meaningless as they may well have an underdeveloped education system and says nothing of the individual abilities."

    Read what I said. I said the evdience i.e government SATs (and much more) shows there are marked differenecs and that these are not changing. The same is true in the USA with the B-W gap. Please read the research. It is people like me who wanted this difference to go away!
    You are not paying attention.

    "Also you want to really stress your eugenics argument and mention you revere Hitler"

    Hitler was copying Jewish euegnics practices. Galton wrote about the Jewish eugenics practices shortly fatre he cointed the term. You really must try to catch up. Eugenics means good breeding. It is aboit family planning etc. The fathers of eugenics were British. Darwin, Galtion, Pearson, Fisher - also the fathers of biometrics i.e statistics. Up until recently the entire science of psychology was based on this study of individual and group differences. The fact that there is more variation within groups than between groups on individual measures is not important, this has been explained to you as has how and why Lewontin was wrong. To start with, intelligence is going to turn out to be polygenic, i.e. a QTL, we know this is likely from its normal distribution. Like height, more than one gene affects it. Given that the actual genes have not been isolated we have to go on quantiatative genetic information and what we can and can not do with education to raise ability. We knwo it is normally distributed and we know that we can't raise it through education. We know that groups differ dramatically in means. Think this through. What you have to try to grasp is how and why differences betweeen means and rates of growth in different populations has major impications for changes in GDP, crime, disease, and most important of all, sustainable infrastructure. People migrate to get away from such problems. What you are now seeing in the UK and USA now is the re-creation of the very problems which many migrants fled from being reproduced where they have settled because of their a) lower ability and b) higher birth rates than those they came to settle amidst. They are too ignorant to see the long-term consequences because that's what low ability people are like - i.e. they just can't grasp the bigger picture, they are only able to think short term/range. In other words, they don't care. More able people find that frightening. Can you grasp why? They respond to that fear with flight, and/or low birth rates.

  • Comment number 45.

    thegangofone (#40) "You mean expose the BNP for what they are and make sure people comprehend the evil that they are?"

    I challenge you to list verbatim with links what "the evil that they are" actually is. At present, I suspect it's fabricated by you and others. That is, you are just posting slurs. That is the sort of behaviour one expects from the McBrides and Drapers of this world.

    I have yet to see anyone in the media do this in fact. All we hear is slurs and denials by the BNP. So either let's see the policies which you refer to as 'evil' or please stop posting your slurs.

    Now the elections are over, and the real right (libertarians) has done well, we can expect the expenses fuss to fade away.

  • Comment number 46.

    Well said Jean, as usual you are making a lot of sense and I'm still reading.

    Yes we have always had immigrants coming into this country, but usually as a steady trickle, not the millions we have had in recent years. The last time this happened was a 1000 years ago. I'm sick to death of people implying that there aren't any english, welsh, scottish or irish people. On all sides of my family we go back 500 years, that's as far as we could find. Can't say the same about my husband, but that's how it should be a gentle mingling of races, not a catastrophic overload!

    There are now people living here in their own culture from all over the world, not just europeans who have similar genes and background to the British. I agree with Melanie Phillips, the ties that bind are rapidly being broken. What is so wrong with being proud of your identity, why must I be part of a world, and not of a country? Yes the British have managed to do a lot of harm in the world, but they've also helped one hell of a lot of people.

    And an afterthought, why is a Scottish National Party ok but not a British National Party. I notice Holyrood is in the latest parlance "hidiously white"

  • Comment number 47.

    Oh and while I'm still reading Why do people behave in such a childish and thuggish way. It's juvenille and gains nothing. How much better to hear what Mr Griffin has to say, and then shot him down in flames. If you only think you know what someone stands for, and they haven't opened their mouth, how can you have a rational argument. I think these protesters are forgetting that almost a million people voted for this party.

  • Comment number 48.

    neilninepercent (#43) "It is simply a statement of fact that the BNP are thousands of times less supportive of fascism & nazism than all 3 Parliamentary parties & than every single BBC, ITN & popular press journalist.The BBC cannot dispute this but form experience they can censor the facts."

    Almost every time the BBC has Nick Griffin on, viewers get to see how much the reporters hate it when he responds rationally to what are, by any definition, often offensively put leading questions. It would be far better if Newsnight had both Griffin and Brons in the studio and respectfully asked them probing questions about policy. A lot of what Griffin says is true. A lot of settled, reasonable, Black and Asian Britons would probably agree with much of it.

  • Comment number 49.

    There are many posters who frequent this page and pretend not to be Nazis or the BNP.

    When you ask questions about whether they are fascists or Nazis the answer is no.

    When you ask about their attitudes to Hitler he is revered, on race they are race "realists", on eugenics they promote the eugenics education trust, on planned economies they favour Hitler style economic planning and on the Holocaust they are "agnostic".

    By contrast the main parties and much of the media rejects Hitler and celebrates democracy.

    Goebbels was not exactly known as an honest broker of the facts and the spineless BNP activists would choose dictatorship and tyranny in an instant - if they could.

    They lie for breakfast, lunch and tea.

    It was a very dangerous game for those citizens who voted BNP as a protest.

    The Cult of the Latter Day Haw Haws is a diseased throwback to one of the most evil dictators the world has seen.

  • Comment number 50.

    #45 Jaded_Jean

    So that people understand the depravity of the typical BNP supporters views you only have to discuss the Holocaust - you are "agnostic" but always like to trot out "statistics" regarding the survival of Jews born in the 30's - despite an absence of reliable census data from the occupied countries.

    No trial of a Nazi war criminal has ever been stopped by any such "evidence" - as Irving found in Austria. You discount the thousands of trials and witnesses, films and confessions.

    You describe Hitler as a "peace lover" and you would like to implement many of his policies.

    Sane readers will grasp what I am driving at.

  • Comment number 51.

    #46 ecolizzy

    "And an afterthought, why is a Scottish National Party ok but not a British National Party. I notice Holyrood is in the latest parlance "hidiously white""

    The Scottish National Party are in favour of Scottish independence and the British National Party are ridiculous Nazis who pretend to be democratic in the hope they can get a sniff of power.

    They favour the policies of Hitler - as you know from your support of Jaded_Jean - and are therefore rightly despised by most of society.

    They got hideous people elected by lies and pretending not to be what they are. They have no courage and no spine.

  • Comment number 52.

    thegangofone (#49) "By contrast the main parties and much of the media rejects Hitler and celebrates democracy."

    Boring lot aren't they?

    Given the mess that they've inevitably made of it all, maybe they should stop 'celebrating' and get on with some work instead? Too fond of neo-liberal, anarchistic, jabbering. Most of these ineffectual windbags aren't even worth a box of eggs!

    PS. It's Trotkyites who pretend not to be what they are. See purge of COMINTERN in the 1930s. It's a very girlie business entryism you know:- makeovers, name-changing, lots of fighting with other people who_can't_do_as_they're_told_either, field-dependency, high verbal fluency - and in the end...... just not very practical.

    PPS It wasn't Jews born in 1930. It was the European Jewish population in the 1930s 15.3m. There seem to be an awful lot about today (14m) given the below replacement level fertilitty, perhaps too many for there have been a mass loss betwen 1941-1945? Never mind, I'm very pleased they turned up after the end of the Cold War. I think they may have been lost behind the Iron Curtain where ethnicity was frowned upon (they don't count it in France either you know, you're French and that's it, same in USSR. Given all that shooting, bombing, shelling etc that was going on in Eastern Europe/USSR between 1941-1945 amongst uniformed soldiers on both sides, and all the collateral damage too, and given it was basically all going on in the Jewish homeland (The Pale of Settlement - about 6.5m Jews), I was a bit concerned that some of them might have got a bit hurt in all that fighting going on - you know, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia (Stalingrad) and all...

    PPPS Most of the rest were in the USA.

    PPPPS Most 'girls' don't like maths. Watch Smack The Pony for a good sketch on what happens when you hit most of them with numbers/logic. Eyes go all funny!

  • Comment number 53.

    #42; "global econgical systems"; who's been keeping these a secret?

    #44; "evdience", "euegnics practices" "aboit family planning"; looks like the Gene pool needs a bit of a pre-emptive strike against potential in- breeding.

    Why is it OK for "indigenous Britons" to persistently mis-spell their own language, yet immigrants have to pass a language test; conducted by whom, one has to ask, innit?

    Never mind let's all be respectful to the BNP; hope the eggs were all from "indigenous" chickens.

  • Comment number 54.

    #48 "a lot of what Griffin says is true." True in the respect that it conveniently fits with your grubby Weltanschauung?

    Please provide some examples of truth from Mr. Griffin. (please note the highly respectful tone; after all, one day he might be Leader and send some "indigenous Britons" after me.)

  • Comment number 55.

    #52; Two MEPs so you think it's OK to come out in the open with your disgraceful comments about WW2? Shameful.

    Oops, forgot to be respectful; maybe I've read it wrong, always possible given my origins, but am I right in thinking that the BNP constitution says that membership is restricted to "indigenous Caucasians" and "defined ethnic groups emanating from that Race"?

    Sounds like ethnicity to me; also, as the Guardian reports, ever so slightly illegal - although when did that ever bother Mr. Griffin?

    The danger of course is as George Monbiot's article in today's Guardian highlights; "The great British adventure - three hundred years spent pillaging the labour, wealth and resources of other countries - is over."

    Yet can't we all just accept this and get on with things? No. Instead we "seek gleeful revenge on a government that can no longer insulate us from reality."

    And blame "outsiders", sorry, non-indigenous "Africans and Poles", to quote Mr. Griffin, for everything.

  • Comment number 56.

    kashibeyaz (#53) #42; "global econgical systems"; who's been keeping these a secret?

    #44; "evdience", "euegnics practices" "aboit family planning"; looks like the Gene pool needs a bit of a pre-emptive strike against potential in- breeding.

    Why is it OK for "indigenous Britons" to persistently mis-spell their own language, yet immigrants have to pass a language test; conducted by whom, one has to ask, innit?"

    Let me explain it to you. Once you have mastered the English language and got your qualifications, and once you have shown that you are able to master and express complex ideas in simple sentences (and be a generally good all round person who knows how not to cheat etc), then you're allowed to make typos. Lots of them! We indigenous Britons are tolerant of the odd disabiliy or lapse.

    You, on the other hand have evidently not yet mastered the complex ideas bit, nor are you able to behave like a good indigenous Briton - so.. you are still on probation and have a long way to go towards mastering behaving like an indigenous person. So, your use of English has to be beyond reproach, or you might just be offered repatriaton. ;-)

    Note how the typos which give you such problems, do not trouble people like barrie and ecolizzy? This is because they are indigenous Britons!

    Capice? (Not an English word).

  • Comment number 57.

    Newsnight; when will you cover the elections in Iran? Before Friday, hopefully. Ahmedinejad's on the way out; good news for all; yes we can!!

  • Comment number 58.

    kashibeyaz #53

    If you haven't the wit to see past the occasional lit you're in the wrong place old son. You'd also make a lousy proof reader.

    BTW, you used double quotes for indigenous where there should be singles - sneer quotes. They'd better suit your attitude.

  • Comment number 59.

    kashibeyaz (#55) "#52; Two MEPs so you think it's OK to come out in the open with your disgraceful comments about WW2? Shameful."

    Whicvh bit in #52 upset you? The bit about people dying in Eastern Europe and Russia? Awful asn't it?

    "Oops, forgot to be respectful; maybe I've read it wrong, always possible given my origins,"

    No need to get personal. This is all about group politics not individuals. Anyone who is abusive to individual Jewish people, Black people, Asian people etc on the grounds that they are Jewish, Black etc gets short shrift from me. Please note - complex proposition expressed. Need to grasp statistics and concepts of epidemiology and prevalence.

    "but am I right in thinking that the BNP constitution says that membership is restricted to "indigenous Caucasians" and "defined ethnic groups emanating from that Race"?

    Seems so, but then there are many groups which seem to only admit minority groups. There's a Black Police Officers group and many schools seem to have Black teachers groups (Black seems to be non-white). There are lots of Jewish groups too. I hear the BNP will change in time as melanin doesn't really matter, I say that because Griffin said they migt change the membership criteria after he was elected as an MEP. he made out his priority was to protect a threatened group at present, and he has a point given the demographic trends. As to Jewish groups, they seem to be behind all of this anti-racism if you look into the legislation. It is, I suspect, all about weakening white European gentile males as a political group, as women's groups are allowed. This is, I suspect, because white European males are the greatest political challenge to white European Jewish males in their pursuit of hegemony. It is just that. That is, it's just group politics. (Political) Jews just use minority groups and gentile women as foot-soldiers/useful idiots in this battle I suspect. In time it will be interesting to watch how American and European East Asians align themselves politically. In the end, its all competition for resources, mainly money and women.

  • Comment number 60.

    #58; who are you calling "old"?

    That's it, I'm really hurt now.

  • Comment number 61.

    kashibeyaz (#60) "That's it, I'm really hurt now."

    It's nature's signal you have an opportunity to learn ;-)

  • Comment number 62.

    Ha, well, I was very pleased to hear Eddie Mair and Simon Hughes agree with me today. That the best way to deal with the BNP is to have open discussion and squash their views, not eggs on their heads! ;o) At the moment the BNP look as though they are winning, as Mr Paxman said, the anti whatever, make them look the underdog.

  • Comment number 63.

    I don't recall any sanctimonious sermons by media pundits on the evils and folly of egg throwing and denial of free speech when George Galloway MP was pelted with eggs by BNP thugs as he was speaking at a rally on the Wirral a few years back. It was filmed and the clip is gleefully played back at every opportunity by TV channels whenever they are doing their latest hatchet job on Galloway. It seems that throwing eggs on that occasion was just a bit of harmless fun. And one gets the distinct impression that whenever the clip is replayed, news broadcasters regret not the egg throwing or disruption to freedom of speech, but the fact that the eggs missed their target.

    Pompous hypocrites like Newsnight's Jeremy Paxman, Simon Hughes and Jerome Taylor (in today's Independent) should be reminded of this double standard.

    And let's not forget that this country threw much more than eggs at the last lot of Nazis during World War 2 when Bomber Harris carpet bombed Germany's cities with scant regard for civilian casualties.


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