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1979 or 1989 - which year changed the world most?

Sarah McDermott | 15:22 UK time, Thursday, 7 May 2009

From Gavin Esler:

So, which is it for you? 1979 or 1989?

Twenty years ago, in 1989, the Cold War finally came to an end, the Berlin Wall came down and - for a while at least - it seemed Western liberal democracy and the kind of economic theories put in to practice by Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher had triumphed as the 20th Century drew to a close.

There are those who think that 1989, therefore, was perhaps the most significant year of change since the end of World War II.

But there are those of us who think another year demands more attention - 1979. That was the year of the Iranian Revolution and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. That was the year Mrs Thatcher was first elected and Jimmy Carter looked weakest, leading to the 12 Reagan-Bush years.

So which is it for you? Which of those two years was more important in your life? The one which ended the chapter of the Cold War? Or the year which saw the birth of neo-liberalism in the West - and Islamism in the Middle East?

Go to our website now and click on the 1979 versus 1989 link to tell us your view.

And join us at 10.30pm tonight on BBC two, where we'll be discussing 79 vs 89 with among others Simon Schama, Francis Fukuyama and Lord Lawson.


  • Comment number 1.

    Not the deepest discussion Newsnight have ever had. As if years have personalities & as if those 2 are the only competitors. What about 1978 - the year Deng came to power in China & started moving it up to becoming the world's dominant economy. What about 1969 - year of the Moon landing - could this be not like debating whether 1482 or 1502 was the most important year?

  • Comment number 2.

    Ummm errr.... ummm........

  • Comment number 3.

    I'm going to vote for 1989 for what it's worth.

    I was in my early twenties at the time & it seemed like the world was entering a new, more tolerant era; especially with the release of Nelson Mandela the following year and the subsequent fall of apartheid.

  • Comment number 4.

    1979 - the year Britain confirmed it had no consideration or understanding for what the Rhodesians had developed (despite phenomenal changes which had led to 90% of the Rhodesian Defence Force being constituted of volunteer 'blacks'; 1p in the £ tax charges for 'blacks'; 50% land ownership allocated to 'blacks'; 1p charge only to 'blacks' for first class hospital treatment - the 1p paid for by a 'white' funded charity, &c., &c.) and thus betrayed not only Rhodesia but the whole of Africa, as witnessed by what prevails within Zimbabwe and much of Africa now.

  • Comment number 5.

    1979. The year I was born. Making 1989 the better year.

  • Comment number 6.

    1979 is the year for me. A year when Nelson Bunker Hunt tried to corner the world silver market and when you couldn't walk down the pavement in Hatton Garden because it was full of people queueing with their cherished silver possession to have them melted down by Johnson Matthey at a silver price almost 10 times higher than before because of the Bunker Hunt shenanigans!

  • Comment number 7.

    Hi, I think that 1979 was a more significant date as it changed the political climate at a fundamental level. I remember people saying that we need a strong leader after all the chaos of the dustmen's strike (sort out those evil trade unionists) What we got was a government that began the process of dismantling the idea of co-operative society, and, in Britain at any rate, the idea that equality is something to strive for. The birth of the "me me" individuality - neo con ruthlessness. The collapse of the Berlin Wall was important but it was subverted as a progressive thing by the aggressive neo con economic colonising of eastern European countries and the subsequent collapse of Russian economy. Since then we have become much more consumerist, valuing ourselves by possessions. The triumph of the shopping mall and market research. Even opposition has its market niche. Remember loadsa money? Shake that wad.... And today we have the result, religious fundamentalism versus economic fundamentalism, war and global economic crisis.

  • Comment number 8.

    A link in Gavin's post to the relevant page to vote would be useful; where is it?
    The two dates were significant for different reasons and on different scales.
    1979 certainly had a bigger impact if you lived in the UK, largely due to the Tory election victory.
    1989 was more significant in terms of world politics, but had less immediate impact on life here in the UK.

  • Comment number 9.

    Does it really matter? Every year is important in one way or another.

  • Comment number 10.

    1979 was by far the more significant date, since '89 was only a comma, or partial result or accumulation of resultant policies. '79 however laid down the precipitously erroneous US policy to oppose the USSR and its support for their 'puppet' President of Afghanistan, who although a Communist, represented an attempt to bring these medieval Islamic tribes people into the 20th Century. Development would have then modernised these Asiatic backwaters. But the US was pursuing further Imperial policies, and off-hand don't remember whether Carter was remonstrating with 'inferior' regimes, for the Iranian debacle. [Can't quite remember if the Embassy in Tehran had already been made hostage.] The US had always maintained double standards towards the USSR, [who incidentally I am not holding a candle for], but they demanded Russian missiles leave the Cuban island, and the Caribean area; indeed actually hushed up the deal between Kruschev and Kennedy where US missiles WERE actually surreptitiously, secretly removed from Turkey; though in Afghanistan, which was the USSR back-door of equivalent strategic nature, the US denied the same leniency, equivalence. As we now see - the failure to suppress medieval mentality of Islamic Asiatic interior, or to enable and influence normal historic change without the islamic religious arbitary blocking of same, has led to the first and second Afghan wars, and now into the Third, which is spreading, has spread to Pakistan. Where else?
    Ok! It did also see the change of US President to the Reagan/Bush era and their close links with the CIA through the latter. Also the push of the monetary theory of 'no free lunches', I parody.

  • Comment number 11.

    GarryWoodhall (#3) "I was in my early twenties at the time & it seemed like the world was entering a new, more tolerant era;"

    Oddly, I remember throwing up. For me it was inevitable that we'd endure unbridled greed/naked capitalism.

    eilabann (#4) Excellent post.

  • Comment number 12.

    For me it was 1989 - I was 13 and it was the beginning of the end of communism.

  • Comment number 13.

    Ah, and more importantly, Jeremy first came on Newsnight in 1989!

  • Comment number 14.


    Which has been the greater loss to the World: honour or integrity? Gravitas or gobbledegook? Maturity or puberty. Solemnity or sanity. Gravitas or Grey-Goo? Childhood or chastity? It is just SO easy, isn't it? Bath-salts or banality?

    "Go to the website and tell us your view." Only if there will be celebrities and nibbles. I have standards to maintain.

  • Comment number 15.

    Mistress76uk (#12) "For me it was 1989 - I was 13 and it was the beginning of the end of communism."

    Why did you give up being a communist in 1989? There are only about 130 odd million Russians (300m if you counted the Soviet Union as a whole).

    The 1,000,000,000 Chinese didn't give it up you know (nor did the Vietnamese or North Koreans). The Chinese don't have an 'economic downturn' (or differential fertility problems either).

  • Comment number 16.

    Mistress76uk (#13) "Ah, and more importantly, Jeremy first came on Newsnight in 1989!"

    Ooo err mistress..... really ... too much information!!!!

  • Comment number 17.

    I have to say I am quite disappointed with newsnight today, not just with respect to this quite American -'soft' and poorly reasoned- question posed by you on the site (although understandable as we all have our own ludicrous quotas to fill) but also because the BBC has finally barred me from viewing newsnight from America. Id just like to make 2 points. One, that the only piece of newsnight I ended up accessing was this quite meaningless question (which instead could've been slightly more insightful). Two, that I already find this kind of meaningless reporting in CNN, MSNBC and, dare I say it, even Fox news (sorry). That being said, I do rely heavily on the newsnight program for pertinent news/information (the kind that doesn't involve the presidents latest meal at the local burger 'joint') and would appreciate you having a word with the powers that be about the BBC's policy to make America 'dumber' by withholding from it the only potentially sensible news hour anywhere in the world - as well as many other BBC programs like it.

    P.S. Being American I am not used to this repression and therefore formally demand newsnight be reinstated internationally.

    P.P.S. why does BBC news America not a 24 hour channel. Could you bring question time here as well.

  • Comment number 18.

    with you on that barrie.

    years are now 'agents of change'. Menacing.

    Anyone else feel they have walked into the wrong room? Can we also chat about about which star signs and house plants are better? Lets have a heated debated. When i posted those clips from the Day Today and Drop the dead donkey i didn't mean that was the model upon which to base the programme on.

    the new NN intyerview?

  • Comment number 19.

  • Comment number 20.

    Why all the dumbing down Newsnight? I have nothing to read on these blogs lately, no-ones arguing! What has all this rubbish about any particular year got to do with the dire straights this country is in?! Or is it just to keep our minds off the forthcoming local and EU elections?!!! The Beeb wouldn't like to see Mr Brown get a drubbing.

  • Comment number 21.

    One might say that 1979/80 was the time the Neocons put their anarchistic puppets into power in the UK and USA, and 1989 was the year the USSR started playing possum, passing the mantle to the PRC, lulling the West into indolent self-destruction. ;-)

  • Comment number 22.


    Might it be that, in the interests of ultimate EDGINESS, Wossy has been hired, for a billion quid or so, as BBC Head of News?

    Tonight: a phone-call is made to Obama's favourite Burger joint, to say that all the buns have been licked by Dubya's dog. Video footage will be displayed against flowing, indistinct, scenes of 'The Potato Harvest' with captions made up of fun chip-letters in false-colour.

  • Comment number 23.

    newsnight didn't start till 1980? so 1979 is year 1BNN?

  • Comment number 24.

    "Newsnight" sinks ever more in to the mire of banality.

    I wonder how many times today's presenter will walk across the studio, to interview someone who could, quite easily and used to be, sat at the desk with the other interviewees, in a pointless attempt to seem edgy and hip.

  • Comment number 25.

    "And join us at 10.30pm tonight on BBC two, where we'll be discussing 79 vs 89 with among others Simon Schama, Francis Fukuyama and Lord Lawson."

    Was Beelezebub busy then?

  • Comment number 26.


    Thursday night is Question Time on BBC 1. Doing a 'But which year is best-fight' may avoid a clash of current news type programming.

    Just a thought. You'd have to ask the new Newsnight editor to find out.

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 27.

    Great idea for a discussion - but which bonkers producer thought it would be smart to start with a piece with the reporter distractingly 'whited out'? What was the point? What did it achieve other than to distract from what might well have been a rather useful intro. into the discussion?

  • Comment number 28.


    Westminster politicians fiddle absolutely. Purge the Westminster pits.

  • Comment number 29.

    #26 Do you know Mr Lion I sense a panic going on. The Beeb doesn't know what to report on next, they seem running scared. Last week it was the 'flu pandemic, this it's MPs expenses. And they're all tearing around and not looking at what's really going on!

  • Comment number 30.

    Hi Gavin,

    I will never forget the night of the election in 1979; I was watching the returns (on the BBC of course), and when the number of seats that were won put Margaret Thatcher and the Conservatives in power, I literally leapt up out of the chair. It was thrilling! What a relief to be rid of that awful Labour government and their union cronies. I'm not a hard-line Conservative, but having lived through the 'Winter of Discontent', as well as experiencing the effects of all the other Labour mistakes and their devastating effect on the British economy, I - and obviously a huge majority of others in Britain - couldn't wait to be rid of Labour. So, important as 1989 was, I vote for 1979.

    In fact, as a historian, I believe that the success of Mrs. Thatcher's economic reforms during the 1980's, the revival of the British economy when it was freed from the stranglehold of the Marxist-led labour unions, the invigourating effects of the privatisations of the nationalised industries and of the promotion of private enterprise, all had an effect on Mikhail Gorbachev's thinking, and contributed to his decision to dismantle Communism and end the repression of Eastern Europe. Thus, I believe that there was to some degree at least, a causal connection between 1979 and 1989, and that 1979 was more important.

    I want also to add my voice to the protest made in blog #17, about the BBC's insane policy of blocking access in America to Newsnight (and all other BBC News programmes)! I am presently doing a project in Los Angeles, and watching Newsnight on my computer was one of the last links to BBC News. As recently as a week or so ago, I could still watch Newsnight. About a year or so ago the BBC blocked access to the 6pm and 10pm News bulletins, then even to the one minute news feeds.

    It is not just outrageous, it is really stupid of the BBC bosses. Do they think that one hour of "BBC World News America" on the deplorable, garbage-filled channel called BBC America, is a good substitute for wider access to BBC News? Are they aware that at least there used to be three consecutive hours of BBC World News on BBC America every night, and that the illiterate morons that do the disgusting programming on that AWFUL channel have cancelled all the BBC News except that one hour, weekdays only, of World News America?

    And speaking of BBC World News, mightn't it be a good idea to sell full access to the BBC World Channel to the American cable and satellite service providers? For sure, there would be a market here for BBC World. The BBC bosses are so foolish. Have they any idea of the bad impression that Americans are getting of the BBC, from BBC America? The only good thing about the programming on BBC America is that it makes American television look good!

  • Comment number 31.

    I am a Japanese. Therefore, from the Japanese or Asian point of view, it is definitely 1989! I have always thought so. Among other things, it is the year of the Tienanmen Square incident (Beijing), the collapse of bubble economy in Japan, the death of Emperor Hirohito (posthumously called "Emperor Showa"), etc., etc.

    Personally, as I am involved in nuclear energy business, I think 1979 is also very important because of, among other things, the Three Mile Island nucler power plant accident in the US, ending the rosy years for nuclear power in the US and eleswhere (remember Sweden decided to phaze out its nuclear program in the 1990 referendum). The accident was followed closely by the second Oil Crisis in 1979, which made it even worse for our economy.

    All in all, I still vote for 1989 definitely.

    Prof. Kumao Kaneko (Tokyo, Japan)

  • Comment number 32.

    #15 @ JadedJean - I've never been a communist and nor would I ever be :p !

  • Comment number 33.


    LadyQuester (#30) "In fact, as a historian, I believe that the success of Mrs. Thatcher's economic reforms during the 1980's, the revival of the British economy when it was freed from the stranglehold of the Marxist-led labour unions, the invigourating effects of the privatisations of the nationalised industries and of the promotion of private enterprise, all had an effect on Mikhail Gorbachev's thinking, and contributed to his decision to dismantle Communism and end the repression of Eastern Europe. Thus, I believe that there was to some degree at least, a causal connection between 1979 and 1989, and that 1979 was more important."

    So, you don't think that years of Old Labour nationalising the means of production and pumping tax-payers money into building a welfare state just provided Thatcher and her free-market anarchistic asset-stripping backers a ready source of family-silver to hawk off to their friends in order to 'invigorate' the economy? Of course there was lots of 'freedom' and 'growth in the economy' - just as there was in recent times, that's what hapens when someone breaks all the rules, ignores the truth about human diversity and liquidates massive state assets. Where else did the money come from... manufacturing was dying. The same was done to the USSR in the 90s via 'vouchers', a few Oligarchs of the saem group benefited as an elite. But then what happened in the late 90s?

    I sugges you look at what was really insidiously happening to the USA because it is also happening here. One has to look at the trends in human capial, as that's what drives all this in the end. Those who cause this destruction systematically try to keep peoples' eyes off all of that, and that's a demonstrable fact if one bothers to look. One should ask how they get away with it.

  • Comment number 34.

    Where is the 24hr version of NN video link? With BBC iplayer as the only option, people living overseas cannot watch your program anymore. Oh dear, are you cutting us off? I am so upset...

  • Comment number 35.

    Mistress76uk (#32) "I've never been a communist and nor would I ever be :p !"

    I'm thinking of creating a House Committee on Un-Britsh Activities which offers disaffected neo-liberals the attractive option of an all expenses paid open-term holiday to delightful Birobidzhan where all sorts of free-market enterprising activites will be laid on from 'securitize your neighbour' to 'ponzi bingo'. We're thinking of taking anyone who is attracted, faith immaterial. Would you be at all interested? I have an 0844 number which you can call and it only takes a couple of hours to take your details and hear a great description of other attractions. I'm hoping to charter Ryan Air, but you shouldn't have any fluids for 12 hours before the flight!

  • Comment number 36.

    Jean if our TFR is very low as you point out, why do we need this....

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    I've lived in this area all my life, never have I seen a place change so rapidly. We are now like a suburb of London, and where there were once orchards and small woods, there are now roads and houses. Yes there are large tracts of countryside, but you can't put a foot in it, and it's only the wealthy that can live there. So as this article implies is it mainly immigration, that I never hear the government comment negatively about!

  • Comment number 37.

    addendum (#35) Here's just one of the other great laid on attractions!

  • Comment number 38.

    Ecolizzy #20

    "What has all this rubbish about any particular year got to do with the dire straights this country is in?! "

    Bread and circuses maybe? They'll try anything; the war on terror, bird flu, Swine flu (Mexican flu to the Israelis), pass the parcel. Anything to distract us from the gad-awful mess they are making of our world.

    "Oooh! - lookit that person doing cartwheels and singing girlie songs! - Oops, sorry, didn't you see that train coming?"

    It's insulting, the pathetic stunts they (even Newsnight or the Masters of Newsnight) think will distract us. They are banking on JJ's theory of dysgenesis having already worked to the degree where we will swallow garbage like this.

  • Comment number 39.

    Nos 35
    Thats the ticket
    JJ today is making hay

  • Comment number 40.

    Looks as though I've overstepped the mark! ; )

    Jean a question if our TFR is so low, I think you've quoted 1.3% of the indigenous population. Why do we need this....

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    I've lived in this area all my life, it used to be quiet fields, orchards and small woods. Now it's all new roads and houses, and expanding airports. There is countryside but you're not allowed in it, only the wealthy can afford to live in it!

  • Comment number 41.

    NewFazer (#38) Want to to hear some of my other radical 'theories'?

    1. Water doesn't catch fire in the oven.
    2. Pigs can't fly because they don't have wings.
    3. 15.3m (1933), 14m today is expected given below replacement TFR.
    4. Reactionaries like Kevin MacDonald won't take up the Birobidzhan offer.

  • Comment number 42.


    When Parliament's honour is gone
    And bankers have got it all wrong;
    BBC gravitas
    Like the Law, is an ass;
    I reckon old Blighty is done.

  • Comment number 43.

    OH Ecolizzy you seem to be being modded a lot. What subversive comments have you been trying to post.

    Newsnight seems to be missing the point or points. They discuss the big stories that have been covered before. It is the small events which never got covered which had the greatest influence. Butterfly wing beats and cats jumping on shafts of light on a woodland floor changing the destiny of nations.

    Before discussing events that made history, first it may be a good idea to understand the nature of time and evolution.

    Mr Lion (or as I now realise with the initials of my blog name here I can also be Potassium Chloride)

  • Comment number 44.

    Gone wrong Parliament within

    bankers an asinus

    Blighty done with reckoning

    BBC grap its gravitass

    cleaner fuel brown paper pyre

  • Comment number 45.

    Eye spy sensor eye

  • Comment number 46.

    On behalf of Michael Crick I'd like to apologise in advance for taking an obscure anti-Tory angle on the expenses scandal.

  • Comment number 47.

    Within the rules

    thou shalt worship the rules no matter how stupid.

    The Brother

    i'm more interested in the unnecessary 'nuclear expenses' the country has to face.

    Pouting Purdy

    The govt handbagged because they do not know what the good is or if they do do not have the courage to stick to it? If they crumble before an actress what do they do when faced with foreign multinationals? [see above]

    terrorism stop and search

    terrorists by definition have training in how to blend in. they don't go around wearing a i'm a terrorist t shirt [unless one knows how to see the signs]. one has to be a bit more intelligent to trap them.

    Years Tosh

    years don't create things. they are a measure of time. we are not victims of time.

    iran was not defined in 1979 but by the uk/usa [as exporters of instability] overthrow of their democracy. Even today are we still not exporters of instability under the cover of 'stability'? As the old star trek song goes [which might be the west anthem] 'we come in peace shoot to kill shoot to kill shoot to kill'. ie the peace we offer is the peace of the graveyard.

    neocons chose a war with muslims. not the other way round. the roots of jihadism lie in things like the book written by sayyid qutb, saudi whahhbism and even the 1000 year old tradition of the assassins. The roots of neoconism is in books like those by Strauss where he says an elite of golden souls may tell lies 'for the good of bringing people back to virtue' usually by war. Which is what we got. Not just one war but two or even three if you count palestine. With all that war we must be very virtuous now?

  • Comment number 48.

    No info yet on NN's choice of topic for tonight's programme. It will probably include repetition of the 'leak' about MP's expenses.

    Like many posters, I would prefer something more fundamental.

    A full programme devoted to UK population increase, or even world population increase and shift, would be more appropriate, given the present and long-term negative affects on our society - and for our descendants.

    The UK public are still afraid to mention the word 'race', following years of being silenced and victimised for expressing opinions on that issue, so a debate on the projections and effects of UK population increase during the next decade would make more sense than a cosy discussion on whether 1979 or 1989 changed the world most, or whether the public should be expected to pay for Gord's house cleaning.

  • Comment number 49.

    bookhimdano (#47) "iran was not defined in 1979 but by the uk/usa [as exporters of instability] overthrow of their democracy."

    What a difference a name makes.

    Neo-cons - Plato's Cave, The Matrix, an' all...

  • Comment number 50.


    "Like many posters, I would prefer something more fundamental."


    But can you 'bear to see the truth you've posted, twisted by knaves to make some pap for fools - indignantindegene?' Or the idea you have put forward, given the showbiz edgification make-over, to produce 'newsbiz' for dullards?

    Personally, I would like to see the whole hypocritical web of state-sponsored and taxed, sickness and death - laid bare. MP fiddles are small beer (!) compared to the great and good whose elevation (even to high government office, and PM) is dependent on the degradation and death of millions. This enslavement-trade continues to support grand lifestyles, but the current slavers go un-deplored. Perhaps the apology is pencilled in somewhere?

    But I would rather this evil continue undisturbed, than be turned into a one-hit-wonder, with 'son et lumiere' by the bright young things of Nooz Toob aka Newsnight..

  • Comment number 51.

    #43 Yes Mr Lion, I don't know what's so controversial about government reports and the affects on us lot in the South East!

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    Except I found it on the Migrationwatch site, so a no-no for the Beeb perhaps.

  • Comment number 52.

    #48 indignantindegene

    You talk of race and say "given the present and long-term negative affects on our society" but offer no evidence.

    Given genetic variation is greater within a race than between races there is no scientific basis for assuming that we are genetically any better or worse due to immigration. There is a documentary coming up on human genetic history in Africa and I assume that will help "the intelligentsia" that often post on this page handle that.

    So the race "realism" expressed by, say, the BNP (and their regional coordinator seemed reluctant to talk about racial issues when Crick interviewed him)is just a cult belief.

    The cult belief does seem to revolve around Hitler and his social policies.

    Its also clear that there is a conscious attempt to make those views palatable to the millions who reject them. That speaks volumes.

    For instance the attempt to say that there there was no evidence for the the Holocaust. Yet none of the loyal far right are going to turn up at the trial of Djemjanjuk or any other Nazi war criminal and offer their "evidence", or "statistics", or refute the evidence accumulated over seventy years or so that millions died at the hands of the Nazis.

    You would think followers of the cult will have to decide whether they stay loyal to their ideology, like Rohm of the SA, and get shot by their own side, the SS - or follow the leader no matter what he says or does. Thereby refuting the alleged integrity of the belief system and making betrayal more likely.

    The history of the BNP, so far as I know, is one of rivalry and betrayal and feud - hence, presumably, the leaking of the membership list by those who did not agree with Griffins policy.

    So some factions won't want to see Griffin succeed and will no doubt offer Searchlight or the security service useful insights into the behind the scenes picture in "far right" land.

  • Comment number 53.

    'A soldier from 1st Battalion The Royal Gurkha Rifles and one from 173 Provost Company, 3rd Regiment, Royal Military Police died after a suicide attack.'

    The majority of the UK would love to see the Ghurkas allowed in.

    They would be even more elated if a lot of the racists decided to leave for say China - though I have met many people from China who I would expect to be appalled by them and to reject them.

    The key point is though that people who support groups like the BNP can't even get in to the armed forces.

    Hoo raa.

  • Comment number 54.

    THE DOGGED AND THE DOGG'D (#43 and 51)

    Poor Ecolizzie! Looks as if the Blogdog has gone a bit rabid? Would a Freedom of Info request do any good?

    PS King Celtic Lion - the risk you run in adding 'King to Celtic Lion, is yet greater!

  • Comment number 55.

    #38 newfaker

    "They are banking on JJ's theory of dysgenesis having already worked to the degree where we will swallow garbage like this"

    From the people who have given us:

    There is no evidence for the Holocaust - but the statistics used will not be presented to the Djemjanjuk trial

    Hitler was a pace loving person who did not seek war - but luckily had already turned Germany into a war machine before invading Poland.

    Democracy is illusion/confusion and the public can trust you.

    Race "realism".

    The third tower in 9/11 was sabotaged.

    Hitlers symbol of racial purity was the Heck cow. You would need an IQ well below the said cow to believe these people.

    As for the milk Hitler used to prefer a different "drink" from his niece.

    Peculiar people on the far right as shown, in the last year, in convictions including:

    The Nazi loving Twickenham Green sex murderer
    A paedophile wannabe nail bomber and Nazi lover
    The Hitler loving Baby P batterer and now convicted baby rapist
    The Lowestoft train station wannabe bomber - found with an SS manual and an IED.

    You can see why they engender such trust.

  • Comment number 56.

    I don't suppose this link will get posted either, for obvious reasons...,,25361297-17062,00.html

  • Comment number 57.

    thegangofone (#52) There's just a tiny weeny bit of evidence.

    Even the papers talked about it. Then again, perhaps all the police, courts and schools are just institutionally racist like this this person over in the USA? Oddly, the (racist?) FBI and Federal Bureau of Prisons report much the same. 14% of the population, but about half the prison population?

    The thing about evidence is one has to be receptive to it and the thing about telling the truth, is that what one says has to be supported by the facts.

  • Comment number 58.

    barrie (#54) "PS King Celtic Lion - the risk you run in adding 'King to Celtic Lion, is yet greater!"


    Here's one of the filters for the Ryan Air Siberian holiday flight - this one's for the quite type ;-)

  • Comment number 59.


    I may or may not have read the linked piece Lizzie.

  • Comment number 60.


    looks to kill but stay still

    blogdog lick it and sitck it

    its about to go your way

    I did it my way

  • Comment number 61.

    #56 Ah got you Barrie ; )

    #54 Don't know if this will come out either Barrie! It was a link to a government report on the concreting over of the South East, so nothing very important really!!! ; )

  • Comment number 62.

    #48 Indi Just got around to reading your post. Exactly what I was posting about but the censors got me!!! : (

  • Comment number 63.

    "Mr Farage also claimed the best way to defeat the BNP was to vote UKIP."

    Vote tactically is the key. The UK wants to see Labour humbled and ideally the BNP exterminated.

  • Comment number 64.

    'A Pakistani offensive against militants in the Swat Valley has displaced some 200,000 people and 300,000 are on the move or about to flee, the UN says.

    As jets and helicopters pounded targets in the valley, the UN said it was threatening to become one of the world's biggest displacement crises. '

    Its sad to see people in distress but perhaps there could be a benefit in that a focused Pakistani military on the that side of the border cooperating more closely with the Allies in Afghanistan could suddenly defeat the Talibs and al Qaeda?

  • Comment number 65.

    I don't suppose this will get past the mods either!

    If this man wants to be cremated outdoors, why doesn't he have his body flown back to India, where he is currently having medical treatment.

    Many people from this country who die abroad, wish to have their bodies bought back here to be buried or cremated. So why can't he do the reverse?

    Just for the mods, I'm not against his religion or wishes, I can understand them, but it could turn very nasty if every hindu wanted to be burned on a pyre outside!

  • Comment number 66.

    ecolizzy (#56) The problem with the laws as they are on the statute books is that if people make a complaint that they perceive a discriminatory act has been made, and this is reported (in the end to the police), the latter have to investigate. The effect of this is indeed to create a 'climate of fear' even where most involved know the whole process is absurd. The recourse people on the receiving end have is that they can make a counter-charge of false and malicious allegation, but when it a matter of perceived discrimination.....

    Some have drawn attention to the often unseen downside which discrimination laws can have, pointing out that such laws may have been knowingly created by some in order to both subvert, and more egregiously, in order to favour, and in a rather surreptitious manner.

    If true, such laws need to be repealed/revised so they can not be abused. We should have laws wich protect all without discrimination or favour. That is not the case at present it would appear.

    In the meantime, there are those who try to expose the lighter/darker side of narcisstic abuse.

  • Comment number 67.

    #65 Me! Damn spelling mistake! I meant brought not bought, I can't stand that grammar mistake! I know someone who was brought home it cost thousands.

    #66 Yup you're right about our climate of fear, people are scared to death to say anything. I wonder what happened to our couple of muslim posters, they declared who they were, and then promptly stopped posting, why? They have the right to blog here, although they seemed to be espousing some cause they'd just won on.

  • Comment number 68.



    Good old Mr Straw.

    I wonder if that report was refering to this to this type of thing.

    Personally I've never liked my greens , god knows what that makes me, but I am sure our government will spend our money for someone to categorize me.

    What was the saying from The Prisoner tv program ?

    I am not a number , I am a Freeman !

  • Comment number 69.

    in 55 years historians will look back on 1979 as the most pivitol year in our nations history. 1215 and Magna Carta had it's claim to being a historical milestone but believe me it all went up in 1979. A vote of confidence in the Commons and Gerry Fitt deciding let Thatcher in after Callaghan bottled in the October it set all the sacrifices up for grabs as Thatcher and all the neocons decided to raid the family silver and sell off the nations assets, something NuLabour would go along with to their eternal shame. In the middle east it wasn't OK anymore to throw a few morsals to a few well placed dictators to keep the hordes in order, Khomeini changed all that. The Reagan Thacher alliance meant the few got rich and everyone else caught flu, rules and regulations that had stood for something were just binned overnight. Thatcher wouldn't take on the judiciary, but she wasted the miners, steelworkers, print unions in fact unions generally, some say they needed a kick up the arse, that comment usually came from well heeled supporters of Maggie and lets be really jingoistic and throw in a war for good measure, just imagine the howls of outrage if the Argentinians laid claim to the Isle of Man, I mean, really what dupes we were and still are to let these charletans get away with all they have and it is still going on, the bankers, MP's expenses the list goes on but 1979 was the year when all the sacrifices after the poverty of the thirties and the second world war I had such hopes that we had come through the worst and yet today we learn that after twelve years of a so called Labour administration the gap between rich and poor is wider than ever and poverty amongst children is worse now than thirty years's that for progress...

  • Comment number 70.

    If a previous Labour Party General Secretary (Peter Watts?) had announced his disgust with Labour politicians when charges were not brought on the funding investigation are there lessons for Labour? He was left psychologically and literally carrying the can.

    Nobody knows where McBride is apparently and he must be distressed. Is he OK and do Labour have a duty of care to find out where he is?

    Once found he might feel like seeing the HoC committee who can't find and declare whether Gordon knew all about the email smear campaign.

    If so I assume we get an early general election - and the BNP get exterminated?

  • Comment number 71.

    #68 Good gracious Steve, that report is just incredible!!!!! Unbelievable, and then they wonder why they won't get elected again for another 20 years!

    I can't eat spicy food, it interferes with my lungs, so I'm going to get reprimanded and reported as racist!!!! I agree, I am not a number, I am a Freeman

  • Comment number 72.


    From the same link:

    "It advises nursery teachers to be on the alert for childish abuse such as: "blackie", "Pakis", "those people" or "they smell".

    I was born in the UK but do not have an English name and both myself and sister suffered racist abuse at primary school, the teachers of the time (1960's) ignored it.

    Knowing where to draw the line, be balanced and just have some plain common sense does seem to be a problem though.

  • Comment number 73.

    #66 Jaded_Jean

    Far right Hitler supporters for just democratic laws?

    You are a parody of yourself at times.

    The important thing is though that you will never subvert the police or armed services and you are not even a pimple on the democratic landscape.

  • Comment number 74.

    Steve_Lonon (#68); ecolizzy (#71); streetphotobeing (#72)

    This is a major problem with charities today, especially since the 2006 Act. They are New Labour's 'Third Sector' which have the appearance of caring organizations and the pseudo authority of old Public Sector Civil Service bodies, but the independence and self-interest of the Private Sector - Thatcher started this with Agencies. In reality they are self-created, self-publishing, self-regulating (forget the Charities Commission, as like the FSA there are too many of these new organisations to regulate/police effectively), self-aggrandizing 'Think Tanks' running on donations, government handouts and public misplaced trust. It's literally more New Labour/Conservative anarchism. Personally I don't believe a word that comes out of them for this reason, i.e I don't trust their 'research' - and I get irked each time I see one of these NGOs on the News where some newscaster (even Newsnight!) makes out we should listen.

    Research is hard work and has to be read critically. Most that comes out of these bodies is populist drivel, i.e. propaganda, as a consequence.

    There are some very basic figures which we should be concerned about.

    1. SATs scores over the years.
    2. Birth and immigration rates.
    3. Offending behaviour rates and recidivism.
    4. Over (Higher) Education, especially of females (sadly).
    5. The progressive breakup of Britain.

    The sorry state of the economy is inevitable.

    #72 Bullying of anyone is wrong. Skin colour or ethnicity, place of origin etc are red herrings.

  • Comment number 75.

    thegangofone (#73) I'm not being offensive, but you really do write like a child. You're pitching what you have to say to the wrong demographic - seriously. People reading and posting here are smarter than you seem to have grasped.

  • Comment number 76.

    Perhaps people who believe in free speech should vote BNP. Just to show that the state broadcaster's decision to censor any statements from them from being seen by us is incompatible with democracy.

    I don't think any honest person in the Labour party or BBC could claim the BNP have done anything as murderous as the war crimes our governing parties have committed.

  • Comment number 77.

    neilninepercent (#76) UKIP seem a bit more sensible. What we really need is Old Labour to purge the New Labour anarchists. I don't see it happening though.

  • Comment number 78.


    I sorry to hear that, when I was at primary and middle school in the 70's my best friend had a different skin tone to me, it was never a factor to my recollection, we with our other friends looked after each other (all for one and one for all). Sadly when I went to one high school he and a few of my other friends went to another school, but last year we all met up again for a good blast down the pub.

    I understand about bulling at schools , I myself was bullied for awhile. It is not right and the schools should act against it (not the non blame rules or whatever it is these days) , but as far as I can recollect bulling has been happening at schools since well before my time.

    Actually I have met and had a drink with the kids (now adults) who bullied me all those years ago , they are not bad people. I just put there behaviour down to being kids at the time, sometimes kids are a bit unfeeling and cruel at times, because of their immaturity I guess.

    But I do not think children should be called racist or have racist on their files for their acts of immaturity, their behaviour should be corrected and left to get on with their education and then adult life. I am not a supporter of the state victimizing people , specially our children.

    I can understand if you do not hold the same views as me , I like diversity of thought , but I hope we can at lest understand and respect our different views.

  • Comment number 79.


    I am soooooo prejudiced, there are even aspects of MYSELF I can't get on with (will he resist that?) But most of the time, I settle for not being totally at ease with 'them' on a sliding scale as the numbers increase. In my defence, I can say that I get on VERY well with extra terrestrials when I am abducted. How's that for tolerance?

  • Comment number 80.



    I respect your right to vote for any legal political party , it's one of the freedoms we have inherited in this country and may we leave such rights to our children and them to their children.

    But I could not vote for a political party that wanted to incorporate the UN Indigenous Peoples treaty into British law, I see no need. It's only this government that wants to categorize people by ethnic roots (is that the correct way to put it (what edition of New-Speak are we on this week ?)) and legislate laws based on those categories.In my personal opinion socialist have to divide to rule.

    Second I am not a socialist , I would never vote for any socialist party BNP or Labour.

    I believe in equality for all my fellow citizens , one law for all and opportunity for all.

  • Comment number 81.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 82.

    JJ #75

    "you really do write like a child"

    Oh, come on JJ, no self respecting child could possibly keep on regurgitating the wholly inaccurate drivel we see in #55! I do admire your patience with Go1 though, he has no qualms about being as offensive as possible to anybody else who doesn't support his nonsense.

  • Comment number 83.

    nos 74 78 et all

    In the comprehensive school (70's) I went to there was no racist abuse that I remember, that was just outright war zone stuff from all sides - teachers and children - beatings, canings, humiliation, classrooms being smashed up, one child knifed to death at a local cinema marked a total low point. I recently met a few of my former class mates, really you wouldn't want to meet these guys on a dark lonely ally way, we reminisced on how many of the teachers would be locked up now for their behaviour and which of our class mates had been locked up.

  • Comment number 84.


    Hi Jean

    Sorry for the late reply.

    "The sorry state of the economy is inevitable."

    hehe well I can not disagree with that.

    I don't know why our government is giving our money to charities, that's up to us to decide what charity we want to support with our money.

    I hope one day we can have tax relief for giving to charities that we think are good causes. At the moment only the rich get it, we should all get it and have a certain amount deducted from our tax bills.

    As for questioning data that comes out of think tanks or other bodies , I think your right all data should be tested and verified.

    I don't know about stats , I'll tell you why , because teachers are just educating the children to pass the stats , they are not getting a broad education any more, well from what I been hearing anyway.

  • Comment number 85.

    Barrie and JJ and anyone else who has a passing interest.

    I couldn't have Celtic Lion as that had been taken. The alternatives the BBC name generator gave me were Princess Celtic Lion or King Celtic Lion.

    Pragmatism took over. If I took the former I could only truthfully post on Wednesday Nights.

    So I just clicked on KCL.

    In October 2007 the SNP came up with this nonsense Celtic Lion economic development strategy. Scotland's future would be based on high and sustained levels of economic growth. I knew it wasn't going to happen and the Scottish, UK and global economies were about to collapse. Ecolizzy has researched our back catalogue and will confirm that.

    I thought Celtic Lion was such a pretty name. Also my fathers family are Welsh and my mothers Scottish. Me I was born 8th August 20 years before the first date above.

    I checked Companies House The Scottish Government had gone for a £multi billion strategy and never registered the name. So I did and the top domain names com and org. This is Blairgowrie in Perthshire, the heart of the SNP. People couldn't believe the Scottish Government hadn't register the name. The writing was on the wall.

    Please don't think I kept the information to myself. My MP, my MSP (John Swinney, the Scottish Chancellor equiv, were told from the 9th Jan 2006 that the Scottish, UK and global economies would collapse. I gave them the date and was within a couple of £billion the magnitude. Don't believe the media or politicians saying the collapse was unforeseen. The SNP knew over 3 years ago. (Mods all documented).

    King Celtic Lion? How I hate tautologies.

    Potassium Chloride


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