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Is it possible to stop illegal immigration?

Stuart Denman | 11:55 UK time, Friday, 29 August 2008

Throughout this week Newsnight has been dealing with the issue of illegal immigration in Britain. Independent journalist Sorious Samura has produced three fascinating reports on the subject, involving undercover filming to test the boundaries of the British immigration system.

The series concludes this evening with a look at how easy it is for some illegal immigrants to obtain false documents which allow them to work in the UK.

You can watch the first two films online and we'll be discussing the issues all three films raise in tonight's programme, including the main question - is it actually possible to stop illegal immigration into the UK?

Let us know your views on the issue.

Comments

  • Comment number 1.

    THE ART OF THE IMPOSSIBLE

    We have a government that exploits immigrants 'legally'. They also flout their own laws as a governmental norm. What chance they can confront the illegal immigrant with any integrity - or even a straight face?

  • Comment number 2.

    Stopping illegal immigration is obviously difficult if the extremely poor performance of the authorities is anything to go by however as we are an island it ought to be easier than other countries in Europe. Perhaps we can learn something from other European countries as to how they prevent illegal immigration and certainly how they deal with illegal immigrants once they have been discovered.

    In my opinion there should be no appeals from illegail immigrants who should be immediately deported and not kept at the public's expense whilst they make appeals. If we immediately deported illegial immigrants, I believe this would send a very clear message to those interested in becoming illegial immigrants who hopefully would reconsider their plans and hopefully not even attempt to enter the UK illegally.

  • Comment number 3.

    Slow down a little, limit a bit, but stop? No.

    There are two reasons here:

    While something may be illegal, that does not stop people doing it. And unlike something like theft illegal immigration is almost undedectable.

    If someone steals from a house the owner reports the crime.

    If someone sneaks into the country and only deals with those who are willing to break the law, then knowone knows to report it.

    I think back to Mr Paxman asking Tony Blair in horrified terms how he could justify not knowing the level of illegal immigration. And of course, it is impossible to know - how do you count such a thing? There is no reporting involved.

    The second issue is the "Marketing" of Britain. Not by the tourist office, but by those who profit from illegal immigration. Not bound by advertising regulations, they promise potential immigrants the wonders of this country - wonders that simply don't exist. This keeps the queues of would be illegal immigrants long and ever restocked.


    So no, for any politician to promise they can stop, or even heavily reduce, the tide of illegal immigration is pure opportunism and misleading the public.

  • Comment number 4.

    Of course it is "possible". We just would not have the stomach for the necessary action.

  • Comment number 5.

    "is it actually possible to stop illegal immigration into the UK?"

    With the economy grinding to a halt and a high tax dependent social system of welfare; unemployment increasing ect, the question should be what methods do we employ to round-up and deport at minimal cost to the British tax payer the removal of bogus asylum seekers and illegals. To not do anything would encourage English nationalism evenmore, its already passed its quiet boiling point...

  • Comment number 6.

    As with most other documents, if you know where to go you can probably get false documents easier than the real thing.

    Like shotgun licences, which cost around £40 a time, criminals don't seem to bother sending four photographs to the Police and getting an officer round to inspect the gun clamp.

    It'll be the same with ID cards.

    Passports can be forged.

    Birth Certificates seem easy to acquire.

    Credit card fraud and identity theft seem out of control.

    Why should immigration documents be any different?

    The advert, warning that if the licence isn't valid immigrants won't get through, is a joke.

    How many illegal immigrants were employed by the Home Office at the last count?

  • Comment number 7.

    Stop illegals?

    1. We need to get our borders back, and have border control to start with!

    2. The army should be brought back from wars that have nothing to do with the UK's interest, and patrol our borders, the channel ports and out airports.

    3. Leave the EU, the biggest problem we have with out border control.

  • Comment number 8.

    DOMESDAY - BOOK 2

    The island of England Scotland and Wales
    could, with smart application of government forces and agencies and applied modern technology, be isolated and 'swept' for all aspects of illegality, criminality, terrorist activity, or what have you. Thereafter boarders and airspace could be more tightly controlled until the next sweep be carried out. What a haul! What a shock! What a disaster for many in high office and high esteem! And there's the end to that plan. In Britain we have a quality and sophistication of corruption that is indistinguishable from propriety. Indeed, so well do we 'do corruption' that the whistle- blower stands out against its background as culpable! Britishness at its outrageous best.

  • Comment number 9.

    Immigration is obviously a sensitive issue, no-one would like to see the country invaded by crooks and benefit scroungers. But not all immigrants are like that. Look how many are legitimately employed, doing jobs us 'Brits' see as beneath us, or too strenuous. There are good and bad in all sections of our society so live and let live. But as for stopping immigration, that is near impossible. Those who are determined to by-pass our border control will do so, shall we take a hint from Nazi history and give everyone a tattoo? What then, ban the sale of ink?

  • Comment number 10.

    employers should check much more;perhaps some people are worried about possible accusations of 'racism' and do not carry out this.There should be immediate deportation and no appeals etc

  • Comment number 11.

    Illegal immigrants seem to come in by the truck load without much trouble, yet there have recently been several cases reported of authorities clamping down on people who have lives in Britain for almost all their lives, if they were born in the likes of Canada, and moved here as babies.

  • Comment number 12.

    The UK has to harness the I want to work ethos. In exchange for biometrics (DNA) offer basic work permit papers for a trail period. If they can not pass english test and show ability to self sustain than attempt to deport them. Implementation detail and follow-up omitted as it would run to several pages. Immigration is a major driver for an economy, I have seen it first hand in many countries.

    There has to be a penalty from arriving illegally, even if this is just: cant claim claim benefits for 10 years, which is erased by working hard, but make the balance such that people will register with the council. After 10 years of hard work offer citizenship of the same basis as everybody else.

    During the boom period hold an amnesty, so you can find out how many people are here. Note you can not do in now, we are heading for recession; this requires foresight, which is so lacking in our reactive system of government. Note to newsnight interviewers: ask government representatives why did they not have the foresight to implement correctly, if they don't known, ask when they will know, and offer for them to come back and explain it.

    The lets make everyone equal makes for poor policy implementation, you get:
    1. Slow and convoluted systems of acceptance: look to the US style of rapid determination even its is a bit rough.
    2. You cant conceptually have half entitlements: which we should do for illegal undeclared arrivals. Make its clear what's expect to be a full member of UK society.
    3. Its easy not to get deported, it may effect your human rights. Look to the implementation France.
    4. Its more unfair to immigrants to have them invisible: its better to have a pragmatic solutions that a PC solution that does not work.

  • Comment number 13.

    Yes..More effort is needed to tackle illegal immigration, and less on nitpicking with legitimate applicants for long residency. Incomers who have a valid passport and/or visa, who spend time in the UK, studying, working, paying taxes and contributing to the community should be welcomed with open arms, and encouraged. The Home Office is rejecting such people, for no legitimate reason, other than, I suspect, to meet artificial quotas. People who contribute and wish to share our values, and at the same time help us understand others' cultures can only enrich this country. More pressure is needed on Government to tackle the REAL problem of people here under the radar, who give nothing back.
    I speak from personal experience of a dear friend, educated to Ph.D level at a UK University, who has lived, studied and worked here for the past 12 years, who has added so much to the people he has met , befriended and supported, but is being cast aside, by a Government who cannot see the wood for the trees!!

  • Comment number 14.

    I have to put answers to these:

    At 1:39pm on 29 Aug 2008, djh1697 wrote:

    1. We need to get our borders back, and have border control to start with!

    Being an Island we have never have had border control - not since the invention of the coracle. The only way to do such a thing would be to build a wall round the whole country.


    2. The army should be brought back from wars that have nothing to do with the UK's interest, and patrol our borders, the channel ports and out airports.

    The problem is nothing to do with the Army, it is to do with people wanting to move here and being prepared to do it illegally. Our coast is 12,449 kilometres long.

    3. Leave the EU, the biggest problem we have with out border control.

    The EU only affects LEGAL immigration, not illegal (since it is illegal). And this would have little effect on illegal immigrants since they come predominantly from OUTSIDE the EU.

    If we left the EU, our closest neighbours would no longer be compelled to help us police illegal immigration - they would just be able to boot them out of their own countries and into ours. The numbers would probably increase dramatically.

    The blame for illegal immigration lies firstly with the traffickers who promote this country, and secondly with our selves for being a nice place to live.

    Personally, I would rather have an ongoing problem with illegal immigration than put up the barriers, lock ourselves in and become a nation of small minded, nationalists who fade away into poverty as we cut ourselves off from the rest of the world

  • Comment number 15.

    "Is it possible to stop illegal immigration?"

    Illegals should not benefit from breaking the laws of this land, dot !

    These illegals are queue jumpers , there are displaced people in states neighboring war zones awaiting their visa's helped by the UN to find places for refugees around the world.

    Then there is the economic effects on a million illegals needing a roof over their heads , this adds to the housing shortage for the young people already here and increases living costs.

    What will happen when these illegals reach retired age ?
    What will happen if they are taken ill ?

    How is a society suppose to plan for this ?

    I am disgusted at the behavior of our European neighbors , if they find illegals they should deport them, not release them for another try at our borders security.

    To find and deport illegals already here , someone said we should have court registered bounty hunters to find and identify them for the immigration department to arrest and deport, I agree with them.

  • Comment number 16.

    If we did not have an immigration problem we would have to create one - so that we could blame someone else for our laziness, our tax cheating or 'avoidance'. Just wave the flag and everything will be alright. Is it true that more people leave than enter the UK yearly?

  • Comment number 17.

    It's near impossible to stop illegal immigration. citizens be they from any country in the world are allowed the freedom to travel wherever they choose.

  • Comment number 18.

    The issue is not that immigrants, legal or illegal, do jobs brits consider 'beneath them', it's that a constant source of cheap unregulated labour keeps wages and working conditions at the minimum level. It was organisations like the CBI that favoured high immigration, because the beneficiaries are the bosses, not the workers (the feudal system only ended when plague reduced the supply of peasants!). The media classes, the BBC, etc, have been incredibly complacent because the one area where immigrants are not a threat to wage levels and employment is the area that requires excellent English language skills - the media. I live in an area of high unemployment where friends in the building trade employ East European labour, because they work harder, are punctual and keen - but what happens to the local unemployed who will never now be apprenticed, never learn on the job - just a life on the dole smoking spliffs and having children doomed to an equally hopeless life? As for the 'who will look after us in our old age' question - hmm, how about our families? And what, meanwhile, is happening in these countries where those with 'get up and go' get up and leave? Is western europe stripping them of their brightest and best? The whole situation is just nuts!

  • Comment number 19.

    I am very torn on this issue and feel cheated by successive HM Governments over immigration.

    Throughout my childhood, with developing knowledge of refugees, and doing charity attendances for fund raising with parents, I inevitably developed a comprehension of the suffering of others; particularly refugees during the fifties. Even the Afro-Caribbean who we saw arriving through newsreels and later television. Commentary put it that we were doing them a favour, "coming to the Mother Country". How the media organs lie to the people - Enoch Powell, Health Minister, and the Transport Minister, had in fact advertised for these vacancies to be filled.

    Yes! I only remember being taught to respect foreign people, and indeed had ex-colonials, Peru, not India, in the family. Also I had french god-parents. So no problems the world can jog along together in a 'Christian' sort of way.

    However, by the seventies, we are learning of race-riots; that other members of English society do not share these trainings. Demarcations are being drawn up - as group marched opposing the other. All this time I am on the side of the immigrant, because I see them as being ill judged, and mis-treated. Indeed I worked in the East-End, doing voluntary visiting of multi-occupied terraced housing in Hackney and Stoke Newington, during the winter evenings while studying to obtain late 'O' levels. Accommodation facilities were cramped, with cooking on the landings, parrafin-lamps and ridiculous amounts of condensation to inadequately heated rooms, shared bathroom and toilet facilities.

    These were the relatively early days of African, Caribbean, Commonwealth citizenry seeking immigration; even that which seemed 'overnight', as with the Ugandan Asians. Later, the Vietnamese Boat people came to these shores; and the Indian + Pakistani factory workers, had also arrived from the sixties onwards, but went up North, and were less visible to me. And another less spoken of fairly numerous individuals when the British registered Merchant Marine made redundancies, and massively reduced their tonnage; they became eligible for citizenship and were virtually 'dumped' in the poorer districts of our towns, and are very often the older Asians seen walking about. Their english language is very poor, likewise their spouses.

    This has been an enormous burden on the British State down the years, as most of them spend some time in the Supplementary/Income Support sheds, as many are unemployable in modern terms. Others work in the black economy, pay no taxes, and work for their own. Housing, and Health are other costs to the State, as birth control is rarely practised. Only now have the organs of the State started to make public reference to a realised increase in the birth statistics amongst immigrant groups.

    Actually, few English have ever been all that friendly to me. Reverse class distinction? What they are to foreigners - well episodes are made public from time to time. But is it surprising, when hundreds and thousands are surreptitiously introduced down the years. Slyly found housing when long standing local families take longer; because their families are smaller!

    It is not the nicer suburbs, and parts of towns where the "do-gooders", the educated, the more financially secure, those with better status, and more interesting jobs live, that these people come. Oils and curry aromas, are not quite the same, in leaking public housing, as in the better quality restaurant. Not the same at all when one isn't seeking it.

    We cannot house the whole world, because they cannot look after, and develop their own societies, create their own improvements to their social environment, or political conditions. They must return home and rebuild their own Societies. This Country is five/eights the area of France for example, but we have vast areas which are also unusable for building: the Pennines, Brecon Beacons, Lake District, Dartmoor, the Highlands. Where are we to put them all. Many of them fled because their own society had become uneconomic when centuries before they could handle life. They have possibly over expanded or is the "grass just greener in England, Scotland, and Wales."

  • Comment number 20.

    British Citizenship lures many people around the world. That is why there are illegal immigrants, mostly from countries those are members of THE COMMONWEALTH.In my opinion, illegal migration to UK can be stopped by easing migration norms for people who can be useful to Britain as far as their fields are concerned,rather than making them "stricter". Close circuit cameras should check those entering Britain.If a person's movements produce any doubts, a passport check should be done.If still doubtful,the person's identity should be verified from his/her country.
    One should have a link in Britain if one wants to settle down there.

    Britain should welcome all migrants with both hands but with caution.
    Denying a citizenship/visa on the grounds of religion ,race or origin will only attract trouble for Britain.

  • Comment number 21.

    The botom line is that the Lisbon Treaty's Human Rights makes border control illegal, and with Frattini saying that the EU needs 20 million immigrants from Africa and S. Asia (to compensate for the EU's low birth rate), even if we have a points system, it's hard to se how it will be enforced given the demand for immigrants and where they will be coming from.

    We have a major problem, but people are not able to face what it amounts to. It requires a radical change to our Equalities ideas. We need to increase the indigenous birth-rate, and that won't happen if we demand sex-equality as I have spelled out in detail before.

    One has to accept that these problems have been politically engineered.

  • Comment number 22.

    I am not saying that Illigal Immigration into UK and even Europe as a whole can't stop but it is going to a long time and indeed requires a lot of work in the developing nations to bring it to a halt. At current rates, the economic situation in developing world has made a lot of youth risk their lives and even women, risking their lives and that of their children. Governments and the international community must build a stronger partnership to address the issues or else the Illigal Immigration problem will forever remain one.

  • Comment number 23.

    The most obvious way of dealing with an illegal activity which offends some but not most people, is to legislate to allow it to continue, but under license. This way, the public authorities derive revenue and, more important, can exercise greater control of the previously unlawful act.

  • Comment number 24.

    "Is it possible....? Of course, given the political will, and to see that develop, the establishment has to promote democratic debate, and stop pushing it's standard output of pro-immigration propaganda, such as Newsnight's current series of 'reports' by an illegal, while completely excluding the host-population's concerns, followed up by stupid questions like this, aimed at prejudicing discussion.

  • Comment number 25.

    Let's get something straight here - these people are not illegal immigrants they are illegal ALIENS.
    Secondly of course they can be deported. But it requires the WILL of the indigenous British people to elect a government to DO IT.
    Everything is possible if there is just the will to do it. If the will is not found then anyone with any self respect who wishes to survive will exit this disaster which was planned a long long time ago. There is a war on against the indigenous people because without mass illegal migration the people would not vote Labour.

  • Comment number 26.

    Some food for thought about tonights film.

    In January this year news papers reported -

    "Secret Home Office memo orders officials to STOP deporting bogus foreign students

    Last updated at 00:34 08 January 2008"

    I would post the link , but it might break the forum rules.

  • Comment number 27.

    I earlier wrote the second blog today on this subject. The question you posed was "Is it possible to stop illegial immigration?" - I still stick with my earlier comments and say "Yes it is", but wanted to comment that I was surprised that many other bloggers do not appear to have tried to answer this question and a number have given some vague and unrelated answers to the question.

    I repeat that it is indeed possible to stop illegial immigration by immediately deporting any illegial immigrant or alien without any appeals that only cost us money and delayll This should get the message to others intent on illegially entering this country that they will be wasting their time.

  • Comment number 28.

    Fortress Britain is now the only option left. Leave the EU NOW to stop the ridiculous European Court of Human Rights stopping us from deporting illegals immediately.
    Immediate deportation upon detection must be enforced, with all illegals. Kick them out within 24 hours.
    If they arrive by ferry, the ferry companies must fund their deportation; similarly if they arrive by air or via the channel tunnel.
    BRITAIN IS NOW FULL.

  • Comment number 29.

    Oh dear, I don't want to appear racist, but I did notice something that must happen to us all here in the UK in Thursday nights film.

    The woman who interviewed Sorious for the care home didn't look at him at all. I feel we are so scared here to actually speak up when it involves someone of another colour, that even if we have doubts we don't voice them. When she did say something about the driving licence, she became embarrased and felt she had overstepped the mark. I hate to say this but I often can't tell black, asian or chinese people apart. We don't have the shorthand in place to immediately recognise features that we would in a european person. So I can completely understand the getting away with the loaning of docuements.

    I'm not against immigration if it's a trickle all the time, but we seem to have got flooded lately!

  • Comment number 30.

    EVERY RACE IS RACIST #29

    'Racist' is a barmy term ecolizzie; just as 'discrimination' is used without thought.
    If I want to demonstrate against discrimination, I can go to the local church and shout abuse at couples for preferring a face that looks very similar to their own.
    We are all prejudiced in favour of what we are used to, and it makes sense. One telling factor is our ability or otherwise to read 'expression'. Faces from different parts of the globe can look sinister, threatening, mad etc TO US even when the owner is none of those things. Nature contrived to create a set of very different physical types.
    What is more, it is clear that they were isolated from each other for some considerable time. Hence, tolerance of difference was not required - indeed suspicion of difference, was a natural consequence. The pot has been stirred but insufficient time has elapsed to erode this faculty. To admit awareness would be OK if the PC aberrants had not taken over.

  • Comment number 31.

    "Is it possible to stop illegal immigration?"

    The 1st step in stopping illegal immigration is to have a government that actually wants to stop illegal immigration.

    But the problem is that our Labour government thinks that it's good for the economy to have brown skinned people working illegally for no pay/below minimum wage in jobs that Labour deems to be "not fit for the British". Slavery isn't legal anymore, but our Labour government has found a convenient alternative to it.

    If the illegals were made legit, then the economic benefit would disappear, as it would no longer be possible to bully them into modern day slavery under the threat of reporting them to the authorities.

    If the Labour government had an ounce of humanity in them, they would do everything in their power to stop this vile trade in people and would stop treating people as mere economic units. But they don't. Because trading people is just as profitable today as it was during the height of the Atlantic slave trade. The only difference is that today, this modern day slavery is a convenient "deniable operation" that they can turn a blind eye to.

  • Comment number 32.

    31 CaringHumanist


    "The 1st step in stopping illegal immigration is to have a government that actually wants to stop illegal immigration. "

    Absolutely agree with this statement. But, knowing how inefficient this government is, in whatever they do, even if they wanted to stop it they would fail. The only task the government succeeds in is taking our money.
    I don 't agree with your comment that the government wants "brown skinned people working illegally for no pay/below minimum wage". In this case, the government is politically correct and does not discriminate by colour. The only East Europeans I have seen with brown skins received their colour, not on sun beds, but from working all hours out of doors. The government wants cheap labour, and couldn't care less about people's rights.
    Incidently, saw a news item today about Eyebrows Darling. He appears seriously critical, and I wondered if what goes round, comes around, and he will be breathing down GB's neck, like the Great Leader did to Blair!

  • Comment number 33.

    Illegal Immigrates are seems to be very difficult to stop but a lot can be done if people from such background before are engaged in the process of stopping this.

  • Comment number 34.

    Illegal Immigrates are seems to be very difficult to stop but a lot can be done if people from such background before are engaged in the process of stopping illegal immigration.

  • Comment number 35.

    As others have stated, yes it is possible to significantly reduce illegal immigration as we live on an island.
    However we must recognise the major parties the Conservatives and NULAB have refused to do this. Why?
    I believe it creates a rotten borough for them to exploit, (look it up if you don't know what a rotten borough is)
    What has happened about the claims of corruption at Lunar House Croydon?
    What has happened about resolving the issues broadcast at:-

    Additional information

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/programmes/panorama/6922200.stm

    http://www.deccanherald.com/DeccanHerald.com/Content/Jul172008/national2008071779320.asp?section=updatenews

    http://www.channel4.com/news/2003/08/week_4/22_keigh.html


    Nothing

  • Comment number 36.

    with a view as to stopping the influx of illegal emigrants AND the supposed BAD guys!, wouldnt it be a lot more intelligent to stop the obviously non European (Caucasian) travelers, As a male Caucasian (white)with a british passport i am sick of being pulled out for a search and enquiries as to MY right to be where i am , when the ethnics are allowed to travel without let or hinderence, i go for a job, I am questioned, as to where i have been and have a load of background checks done, i fly out of the country, i am pulled out, i travel back , with a hovercraft full of visitors, the only brit car, i am pulled!!!!!(and ALL of MY journeys are legitimate!!!!)
    So unless the authorities sort out there act , i Dont think they WANT to sort out the problem, (cheap labour!!)

  • Comment number 37.

    Of course it is possible to curtail illegal immigration - it just takes political will, that is all. We need to withdraw from the discredited asylum system which is no longer fit for purpose. We need to repeal the crazy Human Rights Act which confers rights on those we would rather did not have them. We need to beef up our border defences. But like I said, it requires political will and that is lacking at the moment.

  • Comment number 38.

    IMMIGRATION? OH, IS THAT THE PROBLEM?

    Something's wrong - we appear to have a liberal-democratic ollocaust with not a single gas chamber in sight.

    Here's something to chew on for the thoughtful: The world Jewish population in the mid 1930s was ~15 million, and the world Jewsh population today is ~14 million.

    Now look at this:

    a) Population declines in recent decades.
    b) Why the EU is deperate for immigrants.
    c) Russia's hollocaust

    Does anyone else see a problem?

    Finally, back to Russia and her problems.

    Worth looking into further Newsnight?

  • Comment number 39.

    ANOMALOUS OR JUST CAUGHT RED HANDED?

    Perhaps looking at the facts and cutting through the PR is just too depressing for some? The reality is that when Jeffrey Sachs says WE are 'bursting at the seams'in his BBC Reith Lectures, he's being more than a bit 'economical with the truth' is he not?

    What he and his 'Shock Therapist' friends have helped to demographically do to Russia (and other countries with TFRs of around 1.3 where the population halves in 60 years, it's 30 at 1.1) with their state-de-regulating/sellng equalitarian 'liberal-democracy', should, if his ethnic group has miraclously bucked this demographic trend (they have the highest prevalence of genetically determined NCAH which if anything further reduces fertility), be especially hard to explain given that they too are Europeans...

    Or is there some other explanation for their relatively tiny population drop since 1933?

    If there is, it's escaped me.

  • Comment number 40.

    WAKEY WAKEY - NEVER NEVER

    Phoenixarisen (#32) "But, knowing how inefficient this government is, in whatever they do, even if they wanted to stop it they would fail. The only task the government succeeds in is taking our money."

    The Socialist International are anarcho-capitalists, so of course they're 'inefficient' at government, that's what they do.

    The less (enforceable) regulations the greater the 'freedom'.

    That's the debt-creating, never-never (land) 'Third Way'.

  • Comment number 41.

    I love discussions like these, it really brings out the primal urges in humans. In this case, the closet racists feel that disagreeing with immigration (fair enough) equates to free abuse on coloured people; e.g. ewking-arthur. Let me guess pal, your best friend's black?

    As for ecolizzie's "I'm sorry, but they all look the same!" - big tip - look harder. Preferably for longer than half a second. Don't be shy now, them ethnics don't bite.

  • Comment number 42.

    ON DISCRIMINATION AND INTELLIGENCE

    Howardddddddd (#41) Whilst it's right to censure people who ABUSE others, and in some intances wherethe differnece is irrelevant, to deprive them of equal opportunity on the grounds that they're phenotypically different, it's surely naive and fruitless to censure people for recognising individual and group differences (i.e discriminating) as this is a universal which shows itself through assortive mating? Why doe sit happen is the question one should ask, why do people choose to mate with A over B?

    It's naive equalitarianism/Lysenkoism which drives people to be intolerant of individual differences, i.e. biological ignorance. Much of this ignorance is rife amongst those who are allegedly well educated and this should make one ask if it's political indoctrination. Anti-racism, as we know it today, has its roots in the post WWII denazification programmes, programmes which tilted the West towards Trotskyism.

    Look at the demographics provided in earlier posts. Look at the differences in TFRs between ethnic groups, and project forward bearing in mind that over 99% of London's 'growth' over the next 30 years will be in ethnic ''minority' groups. In some boroughs, the indigenous population at primary school age is already under 25%. Why is this?

    Instead of resorting to emotional blackmail, ask what's happening, and ask yourself why (it matters). Who benefits politically/economically? Look to the data. Look also to the recent politics of Pakistan/Bangladesh and African countries for what may be to come, and no, it has nothing to do with skin colour, it's more subtle than that, skin colour is a distraction just as the obvious sex-differences are a distraction when considering differences between the sexes.

    It is stupid not to discriminate.

  • Comment number 43.

    How Russia deals with immigration:

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    "The number of non-Russians working in the retail trade is now being limited to 40% and, by 2008, that number is supposed to be zero. The new law was proposed after race riots in northern Russia last summer. In the aftermath of the riots, President Vladimir Putin spoke of the need to defend the interests of the native population.

    At the time of the November announcement, the deputy head of Russia's migration service, Vyacheslav Postavnin, called for limits on the concentration of ethnic minorities in towns and cities across the country. Postavnin said their numbers should not exceed 20%, to prevent "enclaves" emerging in which native Russians were outnumbered.

    "According to our calculations, compact habitation by citizens of another country in any district or region of the country should not surpass 17% to 20%, especially if they have a different national culture and religious faith," said Mr. Postavnin, quoted by the Vremya Novostei daily.

    "Exceeding this norm creates discomfort for the indigenous population.""


    Now bear in mind that the British government has allowed immigration on such a massive scale that the native British account for just 64% of babies being born in Britain today. The Russian government would never allow such a thing to happen to it's native population, but the British government has. The British government should be deeply ashamed of itself for not defending the interests of it's native population, whilst the Russian government can hold it's head up high and be proud that it cares for it's indigenous people.

  • Comment number 44.

    CaringHumanist (#43) Those 'nazi' Russians eh? But in the lands of the free, EU law will make it 'racist' for a member state to put its own people first.

    If present demographic trends continue we an look forward to Europe's indigenous population becoming a minority group and (presumably) qualifing for affirmative action (like one of the other tightly knit, white, minorities protected by the UK Race Relations Act. Odd that isn't it?).

  • Comment number 45.

    Having read all of the comments which have been made so far in this discussion, I am extremely concerned that only a few are addressing the question directly instead of muddying the issue by drawing upon wider debates concerning immigration as a whole or even ethnicity.

    Illegal immigration, or irregular migration, cannot be stopped. This is because irregular migration is not something external to Britain, it is not an exogenous force which 'we' can 'control'. Irregular migration is both a product of globalisation which we are all bound up in, but more importantly, irregular migration is exasperated by the UK's strict immigration laws.

    A migrant is only considered 'illegal' because the restrictive UK immigration laws have classed that individual as such. Contrary to popular belief, the ways in which one falls into irregular status are varied, and can range from failed asylum applications, expiration of visas, to the break up of marriages. Most irregular migrants do not plan to 'become' illegal: they do not sit in a darkened room in their home country plotting as to how to 'break in' to Britain. Many irregular migrants come to the UK quite legitimately, but often due to circumstances outside of their control, fall into irregular status.

    Thus, the question should not be 'is it actually possible to stop illegal immigration' but instead we should be asking what can be done to alleviate the situation of the 500,000 irregular migrants who are here already in the UK, who, incidentally, it would cost the government £4.7 billion to deport. (Contrast this to the possible £1 billion revenue in tax which could be collected from these individuals if their status was regularised).

  • Comment number 46.

    rainblogtastic (#45) " I am extremely concerned that only a few are addressing the question directly instead of muddying the issue by drawing upon wider debates concerning immigration as a whole or even ethnicity."

    If you are concerned, please do this exercise:

    Look up the population growth (and mean IQ) for Bangladesh, Pakistan and Nigeria over the past two generations (60 years) and compare these figures with those for England. Then look at their political and economic growth/stability.

    What do you think is going to happen here if current trends continue? This can not be alterered through education given the hertability of IQ is ~80% and the rest is probably 'environmental' damage. Note, the indigenous EU population is shriking.

    What are all these 'non-plotting' immigrants going to DO for a living? What do they DO in their home countries?

  • Comment number 47.

    Well I don't suppose anyone will see this, but what do you all think now England is the most crowded place in Europe? To all those who say welcome all, where are they all going to live? Do you want to have standing room only?! ; )

  • Comment number 48.

    Well we have a Officials who give a blind eye.
    Proof of where these illegal immigrants sent to the Home Office & Border control no action is taken.

    It is difficult to stop illegal immigrants. But UK has become an easy entry, where no check are done at the port of entry.

  • Comment number 49.

    It is difficult to stop illegal immigrants. But UK has become an easy entry, where no check are done at the port of entry.

  • Comment number 50.

    Immigration is not our problem. Illegal or not. We complain too much,people are stabbing themselves all over the country, Illegal immigrants go to work mondays to sundays... Illegals pay taxes,illegals don't do pubs or engaged in fights and killings.. Government should grant work permit to them. Am british and am proud... We complain too much, illegals don't get benefits,illegals do jobs we refused to do,all we do is blame immigrants , very soon someone will start blaming illegals for the credit crunch....

  • Comment number 51.

    I can't help feeling that dividing between 'empathisers' and 'racists' is unhelpful. People come here for a better life. If life here gets too overcrowded then it won't be better ergo it is as much in the interests of those who seek to come here, as it is in the interests of those already here, to discuss numbers. There are other solutions such as working with countries that people who want to come here come from, and see if those countries can't also provide livelihoods. The UN for instance takes a virtually completely laisser faire attitude to the appalling economic and human rights records in some countries. Well, now that the UN has become more inclusive of non-western countries shouldn't those countries look to their own morals as well as hankering after the good life in western countries?

    But in truth there is not the political will to solve the problem. The wealth of the planet is busy re-organising itself behind Arabia, China, Russia and India - that's what the credit crunch is and I suspect that it is quite highly orchestrated. The UK is a designated dumping ground, a run off tank to relieve pressure in the global economy, it is not a 'country' with a culture and an identity anymore. We are a culture in decline. Lower income groups have realised the futility of trying to compete anymore and are voting with their feet - straight to the bar for some good times before the real crunch hits.

    Fraud is the biggest problem that mass migration has caused. I don't blame fraudsters, it's probably a logical reaction to the plight they find themselves in. But the government's solution seems to be to make it compulsory to give photocopies of your passport and driving license, and to give bank details, for even the smallest transaction with the state in its broadest sense, so that includes temporary and casual work. Those details floating around offices with very little security has made fraud unbelievably easy.

 

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