Talk about Newsnight

There can only be one law of the land and that is British Law. Having said that, there is no reason why the Sharia Courts should not have the same rights or consideration as the Beth Din, the Jewish religious court. i.e. they rule on divorce and Jews cannot remarry in synagogue without a Jewish religious divorce. But this has no bearing on civil divorce, and Jews cannot remarry without a civil divorce.

Even a Islamic arbitration would be unfair because women would fear violence or social exclusion if they opted for civil law.

Live in Britain work in Britain, live by British laws and standards!
The rules are the rules and in such respect one size does fit all!
Muslims men are allowed more than one wife so I believe, the law of this country states this to be bigamy (a crime) and just because a religion says it is legal to have more than one wife does not mean that the law of every land should adopt it!
In defence of the Muslim community, may I also say it is recognised that it is not the Muslim community demanding these things. This is another shinning example of silly white men trying to give this country away to anybody who wants it and frankly its disgraceful.

Perhaps the laws of the land could be brought up to date and made more relevant to our lives in the UK by taking the best of both worlds/cultures and applying them where appropriate.I don't think there is any harm in doing this. We seem to have lost a lot of values in this country and no one seems to have principles anymore. We need a debate on this issue to shakes up and do us some good.

This man has a talent for inflaming tensions.
we need a common code of standards and behaviour in order to maintain both our society and our freedoms.
'this is how it works in England'. If this isn;t what you want, then no-ne forces you to stay here.

Very much a 'when in Rome......@

His remarks were no doubt well intentioned.

But it's ludicrous to even consider his suggestions.

He as achieved nothing except to generate even more disquiet about the invasion of Muslim culture into the country.

I go further. I think the day is not too far away when the populace will say - enough.

I think the archbishop should be more concerned in the falling numbers in his congregation in his church than dabling in politics!

Dr. Williams has in the past made numerous wise and important pronouncements, but this time he seems to have gone right off the rails.

Well, the archbishop needs to urgently clarify his comments on the islamic laws in Britian to avoid being misquoted out of points.He should understand that tolerance begins with the way we view things.Of course ,this will certainly pose a threat to British culture.

I am afraid to say that the coverage has been islamophobic. I was schocked when I viewed the BBC 2-minute video summary on the Internet portraying, I think only 20 seconds after the explanation had started, a black man lashing a young person in front of a crowd of black children who looked dismayed. Why that? Why not try and have a think about what the Archbishop meant? I think the whole reaction is so really stupid. I am convinced that the archbishop is a thoughtful man however, if he is so thoughtful, could he not guess that his remarks would be misconstrued and that the same bad images of Islam and so-called Islamic law being implemented wherever ( real Islamic law is implemented NOWHERE at all and I know what I am talking about) would just come up AGAIN and AGAIN? I dont know but if even somebody like me could figure this out , he could have too, and therefore I am pondering about the significance and relevance of this declaration. If you are fighting prejudice, you try and do it in a clever way, not like that...To me this has only achieved one thing: reinforce the idea in the English commoner that all what Muslims are after is changing their country's law, habits etc. Have you ever seen ordinary British Muslims discussing how vital it is for them that British law change? Thought so.

Given the nature of an Established Church the Archbishop is little more than a Civil Servant in a dog collar and gaiters. As such his time and efforts would be much better utilised looking after the interests of the C. of E. and its members rather than dabbling in areas that are beyond his remit.

We've been here before: At one time there was English law and the Canon law of the Catholic Church. Although this was an improvement on the preceding system in which there were 4 geographically-separate but competing legal systems in England, having two competing systems was still a bad thing. So we had the Reformation (does the AoC remember?) in which Anglican Canon Law was firmly subservient to English Law.

So if we're to have Sharia law (in any form) what's to stop the return of Catholic Canon Law and indeed the introduction of the Rabbinical code?

If you are to have a legal system you must police it. Who will police the Sharia system?

I don't think that this has anything to do with islamophobia. The ABC's comments were extremely ill advised and will give comnfort to extremists, while undermining the efforts of moderate muslims.

Everyone should be equal before the law in a democracy, and, while there should be a compassionate interpretation of the law to accomodate factors like culture, religion and other special circumstances, that is not an argument for seperate legal systems on any level.

Sharia will be enforced by unelected greybeards and will certianly not be a voluntary option if they have anything to do with it.

The ABC is unwittingly colluding inputting pressure on vulnerable muslims community members - particularly women, to allow themselves to be even further isolated from the mainstream.

Perhaps the laws of the land could be brought up to date and made more relevant to our lives in the UK by taking the best of both worlds/cultures and applying them where appropriate.I don't think there is any harm in doing this. We seem to have lost a lot of values in this country and no one seems to have principles anymore. We need a debate on this issue to shake us up and do us some good.

Not Islamaphobic.

Just NO. How about 'when in Rome'.You are welcome but - Don't like our culture, then don't stay.

i thing we should stay with british law .if we went to live in muslim country we would expect to keep there laws even if only going for a holiday .judith

The sign of a true democratic multicultural society is that the state makes provisions for fair and equitable decision-making for all members of society, regardless of religious, ethnic identity nor sexual orientation. Therefore one set of rules for all seems fundamentally necessary. Democractic principles dictate that human rights are respected and therefore our institutional arrangements and democratic process are designed to reflect this reality.

When are we going to accept that we are a multicultural society and that our legal system provides the only common framework to defend unifying basic human rights? Amending legal provisions to any specific faith over others is the start of a very steep and slippery slope which leads directly to inertia restricted by the straitjacket of political correctness.

The point is, this is totally unnecessary.

Any people who are mutually agreeable to having disputes resolved by Sharia law, are quite at liberty to do so, as long as the judgement does not conflict with British Law.

To suggest that muslims should be exempt from British law in ANY way is preposerous. If they can't live under our laws, the answer is simple - leave.

Allegations of Islamophobia are irrelevant to this issue of the rule of law and of democracy.

Anyone is free to come to any private contractual agreement as long as it does not infringe the law of the land. So to that extent some Shari'a (and other religious) law is already allowed but if Shari'a or any other rules conflict with the law then they are illegal.

To make any exception would be to undermine the rule of law, the requirement that all laws are for all citizens and are applied equally - the very basis of a free society. It would also undermine democracy, as our laws are laws made by citizens, not laws made by a supernatural force or a conclave of theologists.

Any such exception would rapidly be tested to destruction by similar claims by Rastafarians, Scientologists, Mormons, Wiccans and anyone who cared to set up a religion.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/2008/02/relative_satisfaction.html#c6230303

Velma (#6) The Tchenguiz Brothers are Jewish.

1) The 'Christians' have dangerously below replacement level TFRs, and are headed towards extinction sooner than most people grasp, unless something radical is done to reverse this trend.

2) Islam's 'sexism' (anti sexism is a 'Human Rights' concept, note) accounts for Islam's higher than replacement level TFR. That is normal and biologically fit.

3) Where is the pressure coming from?

4) How good can 'Christian' values be if they result in LOSS of 'biological fitness' (always measured by reproductive rate)? It was even worse in Catholicism where the brighter males went into the celibate clergy (whose 'clever' dysgenic idea was that?).

5) These (essentially dysgenic s covered elsewhere at great length) practices are not Jewish practices (not within Orthodox Judaism anyway). But many of the most influential feminists were/are disproportionately rebellious Jews.

This does require some serious thought/debate, but I suspect this will not happen, for classic PC reasons. This is not necessarily a conscious process (cf. jahilyyah, or cognitive scomata), and most rational debate rests on the participants being aware of their assumptions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahiliyyah

The archbishop has shown wisdom and courage.

The Archbishop's comments are totally inappropriate and irresponsible - another sad day for the Anglican church. I wonder if he actually knows what opening the door to Sharia law in Britain implies. Furthermore, would he expect Muslim countries to adopt our laws so that we, a minority of Christians feel more at home there? I think not.

This has nothing to do with Islamaphobia, it has to do with our ability to stand up for our own Western, Christian culture, ideals and law. If this is not good enough for our Muslim residents then they need to find somewhere else to live.

Britain for centuries has been seen as a country with one of the finest legal systems in the world - what exactly are we doing even thinking of compromising it?

I would suggest the Archbishop does a bit of research on the implications of Sharia law for women specifically in the areas of marriage and property, before he welcomes it so whole-heartedly.

I think that tolerance and respect for others' cultures and religions is part and parcel of our law as well as our values as British people. Also central to our laws and belief system is the belief that there is one law for all and that noone is an exception or above the law. I do not see how a society like ours could function without this premise. Thinkers like Martin Amis have raised their doubts about the whole notion of a multi cultural society and although I do not believe everything he says this move towards thinking that we have many cultures and religions in this country and therefore we should include their laws alongside out own is not just muddled thinking but purely dangerous.

Claims of islamophobia seem to be yet another case of anyone speaking out in defense of anything British automatically meaning the speaker is racist. What other nation in the world would accept foreign laws to be introduced, even to the extent of labeling any anyone who has the audacity to speak out against the proposal as xenophobic.

Phobias are irrational. It is not irrational to reject the thin end of the Sharia wedge.

Myths and superstitions should form no part of politics or the law.

The Archbishop has always been a bit of of a loose cannon. His remarks are a classic example of the dangers of allowing a philosopher to enter the real world.

Well often within religious and very closed communities it is the priest or the elder that takes decisions on a lot of things. A marriage is near break down and wife or man or both turn to their parish priest for council. This no doubt happens in Islamic communities too. And frankly the outside world in most cases shouldn't bother. It is a private matter between grown-ups.
Regarding the reactions to this proposition, no doubt many but not all were clearly islamophobic ones. Nowadays being islamophobic is in and threating them with contempt or even jail for their beliefs is sadly no longer an exception. It all reminds me of the anti-Jewish attitude in the first half of the last century. An we all know how that ended. It's therefore shocking to see Zionist Jews often taking the lead in this witch hunt against things Muslim. But no real surprise. Europa has always had a very racist attitude towards others.

i thing we should stay with british law .if we went to live in muslim country we would expect to keep there laws even if only going for a holiday .judith

After a day someone is already having second thoughts about this nonsense. Will now whoever doesn't agree with what Dr Williams said be branded as Islamophobic? I am an Italian, former Roman Catholic. I have officially given up my Catholicism right because of the negative influence that the Catholic Church has always had and still has in the civil society of my native Country. I live permanently since 8 years in the United Kingdom and it can be fairly said that I have brought quite a lot to this Country since someone invited me to come. My duty is to respect laws and rules of a Country that has been fantastically welcoming to me, and it comes perfectly natural, as I don't need any effort at all. However, if I didn't like the rules any more, it would be as cheap as £20 single (including taxes and VAT) to leave.

This just underlines how uninformed the Arch is. Does he really understand the implications of such a statement. Does he really understand the oppressive nature of the Sharia Law which undermines women. There should not be an alternative Law systems. it undermines the existing system. he should keep focus on his churches mission to spread the Christian message of Love Care and hope to all.

Well often within religious and very closed communities it is the priest or the elder that takes decisions on a lot of things. A marriage is near break down and wife or man or both turn to their parish priest for council. This no doubt happens in Islamic communities too. And frankly the outside world in most cases shouldn't bother. It is a private matter between grown-ups.
Regarding the reactions to this proposition, no doubt many but not all were clearly islamophobic ones. Nowadays being islamophobic is in and threating them with contempt or even jail for their beliefs is sadly no longer an exception. It all reminds me of the anti-Jewish attitude in the first half of the last century. An we all know how that ended. It's therefore shocking to see Zionist Jews often taking the lead in this witch hunt against things Muslim. But no real surprise. Europa has always had a very racist attitude towards others.

I'm not going to give a yes or no answer as that simplifies the matter and reducing it to "which side are you on" debate.

As a Muslim, born and bred in the UK I worry when reading reader responses on the BBC website about how people perceive the issue of sharia law, when as a Muslim I can't even begin to explain what sharia law is. Can those wading in the debate even give examples of sharia law?

I wonder if some readers are even aware of their own British identity and are they frightened about another group which has perceived strong identities?

I am also worried that some of the responses reflect words to the effect of "go back to where you come from if you can't live under OUR laws."

Lastly, I just want to say that this 'debate' has NOT been prompted by Muslims publicly asking for Sharia law but from the Archbishop. Yet, reading the press you would think otherwise.

I value the spirit in which the Archbishop spoke but
I just want to say we don't want yet more spokespeople speaking on behalf of Islam. We can do that ourselves. The Archbishop should instead do more constructive work on behalf of his congregation.

Dr Rowan Williams should be ashamed of his comments. In his role he should be standing up for this country’s established laws & beliefs which are inherently linked. How can his position be tenable when he is spouting such rhetoric.

His remarks were no doubt well intentioned.

But it's ludicrous to even consider his suggestions.

He as achieved nothing except to generate even more disquiet about the invasion of Muslim culture into the country.

I go further. I think the day is not too far away when the populace will say - enough.

Well often within religious and very closed communities it is the priest or the elder that takes decisions on a lot of things. A marriage is near break down and wife or man or both turn to their parish priest for council. This no doubt happens in Islamic communities too. And frankly the outside world in most cases shouldn't bother. It is a private matter between grown-ups.
Regarding the reactions to this proposition, no doubt many but not all were clearly islamophobic ones. Nowadays being islamophobic is in and threating them with contempt or even jail for their beliefs is sadly no longer an exception. It all reminds me of the anti-Jewish attitude in the first half of the last century. An we all know how that ended. It's therefore shocking to see Zionist Jews often taking the lead in this witch hunt against things Muslim. But no real surprise. Europa has always had a very racist attitude towards others.

The whole principle of Rule of Law, on which our entire legal system, and indeed constitution, rests, relies upon there being one clear set of rules and laws. To have two concurrent sets of laws would undermine everyone our society is based upon. The only conceivable way the Archbishops comments could work in practice is if elements of Sharia law are integrated into our current, age old, and world-envied legal system.

After a day someone is already having second thoughts about this nonsense. Will now whoever doesn't agree with what Dr Williams said be branded as Islamophobic? I am an Italian, former Roman Catholic. I have officially given up my Catholicism right because of the negative influence that the Catholic Church has always had and still has in the civil society of my native Country. I live permanently since 8 years in the United Kingdom and it can be fairly said that I have brought quite a lot to this Country since someone invited me to come. My duty is to respect laws and rules of a Country that has been fantastically welcoming to me, and it comes perfectly natural, as I don't need any effort at all. However, if I didn't like the rules any more, it would be as cheap as £20 single (including taxes and VAT) to leave.

I would not think of going to a country, where Sharia law was in force, as I would not expect to be exempted from its regulations or penalties. Similarly, if Moslems choose to come to another country, they should abide by that country's laws. The remark by the Moslem cleric that in a country where there are more Moslem women than men, there should be polygamy, because otherwise the only choices for a Moslem woman are to be a nun or a prostitute or remain single, reveals an bigotry that in other circumstances would be unbelievable. (In a country where there are more Moslem men than women, do they practice polyandry?)

Are people in the UK not permitted to critise the religion of Islam and its followers?

There are frequent critisims of the Catholic church in the UK, but Newsnight never asks whether is it Catholicphobic.

Allegations of Islamophobia are irrelevant to this issue of the rule of law and of democracy.

Anyone is free to come to any private contractual agreement as long as it does not infringe the law of the land. So to that extent some Shari'a (and other religious) law is already allowed but if Shari'a or any other rules conflict with the law then they are illegal.

To make any exception would be to undermine the rule of law, the requirement that all laws are for all citizens and are applied equally - the very basis of a free society. It would also undermine democracy, as our laws are laws made by citizens, not laws made by a supernatural force or a conclave of theologists.

Any such exception would rapidly be tested to destruction by similar claims by Rastafarians, Scientologists, Mormons, Wiccans and anyone who cared to set up another religion.

Regardless of whether one thinks that the CofE is frankly rather sad in supporting minority interests because of its own failure to promote its core business of Christianity, you cannot have two legal systems operating in a civilsed western country.

Rather than make silly uninformed remarks, Rowan Williams would do well to go and experience Sharia Law in somewhere like Nigeria where it is alive and well in the northern part of the country and where it completely overrules the law of the land. Punishments (which follow extremely arbitrary judgements) include tieing women to a stake and beating them with a lash for having children out of wedlock and having your hand cut off for stealing a car.

Whether one thinks that a sterner form of justice might indeed be a good thing in this country, let us please stop this nonsense of allowing minority groups to do as they please and maybe start taking the same viewpoint that John Howard has recently taken in Australia, that they are a Christian country with Christian principles and where people speak in the main English, and if any muslims find this hard to take, there is nothing stopping them going back to their own lands to carry out their barbaric practices.

William Nation

I am old enough to be reminded of the sketch between Mel Smith and Rowan Atkinson pondering whether Satanists could be allowed into the Church of England..

Joking apart, if a small minority of the comments in response to Rowan Williams' comments have been Islamophobic, then it might teach him not to speak such utter nonsense on the topic. This is a subject which would benefit from more considered discussion of human rights and civil liberties than the broad church waffle delivered by the Archbishop of Canterbury.

This pandering to all minority beliefs, no matter how divisive or illiberal is just inciting the very Islamophobia the Government is trying to control. And who is defining the word 'Islamophobia' anyway ?

Were the people who were giving the Catholic adoption agencies a good kicking for their stance on civil partnerships being accused of Catholiphobia ?

I'm not religious myself, although I am all in favour of people having the maximum freedom to pursue it for them selves - but a level playing field is required, otherwise we will have the freedom of expression to criticise any of it.

Its a tough one; we are caught between two worlds and both are changing. Walking the line between intolerance and your own ethical, moral and religious views is a perilous journey.

Perhaps some of our dilemma lies in the fact that there are many words we have forgotten in our "new world, microwave pop-corn, fast-food culture":

Words like courage, conviction and integrity. As we teach these words, are we teaching the shades of complexity that live with them? Do our children realise that courage is about having the stamina to live your beliefs in a world full of compromise; and sometimes courage means laying down our own ideals to protect someone else’s? Do we insist that integrity also means you have to learn about where to compromise and where to stand firm.

Most importantly, do we teach Love – true Love? Not the sex-driven, selfish lust of no consequence and shallow roots. Do we really, truly seek Love? St. Francis of Assisi said “Love God and do whatever you like”.

One ancient text explains that Love covers a multitude of sins. The same text says that Love is patient and kind, it does not envy or boast; it is not proud or rude and it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the Truth. Love always protects, always hopes, always trusts, always perseveres. Love never fails.

It is much to ask for two races, creeds and religions to unite on doctrine. Our only chance is to unite on the principles of Love.

The Archbishop of Canterbury (Caliphatebury?) has made the mistake of entering into an academic debate on a subject which anyone who has spent many years in the muslim world would have given him clear advice to avoid. Why those in positions of responsibility want to lead their flock in that direction is a mystery; I would advise anyone who wants to pontificate on these matters to spend a year or two in Saudi Arabia or even a so called liberal muslim society, live next door to a mosque and then come back and tells us about how enriching it has been.

Your questions reflect the continuing BBC attempt at sensationalism/dumbing down of Newsnight. This has been one of the saddest BBC/UK developments in national and global context over about the past 3 years.

Paxman has refered to it obliquely at times and I look to him/others to reverse this over time.

As to your question the whole issue was so bizzare that it was nipped in the bud by all sane people and institutions, inluding HMG, 24 hours ago and is no longer news/newsworthy/Newsnight debatable worthy.

Strewth. Talk about trying to milk a non story and a non person re the British people, British politics, British religions/non religions (of which no religion dominates) and British Muslims.

Otherwise may I remind you that in the UK `disestablishment' happened just a few years back !

John Wragg

J

What nonsense. The Archbishop should be respectfully reminded how irrelevant he is to the vast majority in the UK (including the casual Christian majority) and politely told to keep his daft, attention-seeking views to himself.

The only people entitled to choose what laws apply and how they are judged, are the rich and politicians - who will continue to flaunt justice and the legal system as they have always done.

Muslims have no more right to opt for an alternative set of laws/legislation than Hindus, Jews, Gays, Teenagers, or any other self-proclaimed group.

It's a ridiculous speculation, and merely by showing our frustration and indignation we still show the Archbishop far more respect than he currently demands.

I do not think so. This morning, Danny Cox, presenter on BBC Oxford spoke to a teacher of Islam here in Oxford and the teacher made it very clear that he would leave Britain should Sharia law be introduced. Sharia law has very little to do with the Qoran and its interpretation, in fact, there is no one set standard for Sharia law in the world. He gave the example that in Saudi Arabia, Sharia law forbids women to drive whereas in Pakistan, Sharia law allows it on grounds of equality expressed by the Qoran.
It would be very sad if we had two different legal systems in this country, the birthplace of the Rule of Law!!
In fact, would there be two strands of appeal, how would the European Human Rights be applied?
We have had our legal system for an extremely long time. It should not be subject to people's religion, if we had that, Catholics might demand a different divorce law, Jehovas Witnesses a different medical law, etc. etc.
Unfortunately, the Archbishop's comments were inopportune.

I do not think the reaction is Islamophobic, more an honest concern that such an educated man in his powerful position should open up such a hornets nest. People are entitled to there own beleifs but surely must live by the law of the land they live in.

The reaction is not Islamophobic; the outcry would be the same if any religious group attempted to influence the adoption of a parallel law in this country. I consider the Archbishop's outspoken and sometimes unthinking comments do not evidence the required responsibility of his role. The transcript of the interview regarding Sharia law indicated the following:

The Archbishop’s lack of knowledge of Sharia, which he admits on more than one occasion in the interview. This should prohibit the views he expressed;

His opposition to one law for all which does not recognise the foundation of a free democratic society. Laws in this country are made by parliament which is elected by the people not by a prophet, religious figurehead or committee; and

He should appreciate that life is not an academic exercise or theoretical and views expressed by him are taken seriously. He should recognise that there are real people out there most of them attempting to live good lives. He inflames situations by his thoughtless comments which create fear. He should do his job and put more effort into supporting the United Kingdom as a truly democratic, tolerant Christian country.

What a betrayal of the very Western values that have made Britain a free, open and egalitarian society! Even assuming he's not an idiot, what he said makes little sense. He said that Jews in Britain have a Beth Din that deals with family and other matters and he's quite right. Jews take various matter to the Beth Din and it is also true that Jewish Law asks this rather than going to civil courts. BUT the Beth Din only functions voluntarily and does not override or supersede the law of the land.

If the Archbishop was (clumsily) saying that Muslim courts could function in the same voluntary way, few would argue with him. Of course, every religion has the right to worship, dress and conduct its internal affairs as it wishes so long as it does not offend the law of the land.

But he didn't say that. He said Civil Law has to accommodate to Sharia. In this charged, tense atmosphere his language was ill considered and childish at best. Such a suggestion is not only madness, but a complete betrayal of British values. No wonder so many Christians in the UK prefer the Chief Rabbi to the Archbishop.

There is no way you can unite a country and a varied population without a single system of law. It is already a scandal that the police and the judiciary turn blind eyes to honour murders and forced marriages in flagrant opposition to English Law, for fear of offending sections of the population. It is a scandal that Social Welfare pays out large sums to multiple wives in a society where polygamy is against the law.

The problem is that many Muslims are as open, law-abiding, and religiously moderate as most Jews. Sadly, there is a significant number that come from more primitive sectors of Islam and have not yet made any concessions to modernity, other than Coca-Cola. They need to be encouraged to do so, not be pandered to, because in pandering we are abetting the betrayal of moderate Islam.

I think the way in which the Archbishops' comments are being attacked, distorted and blown out of proportion by some of the press/media is an irresponsible disgrace.
Clearly this man is in a position of some authority and influence, and as such must take due care when offering his views on hyper-sensitive topical issues, but he is now being treated as though he has advocated terrorism and fundamental extremism.
Due to his elevated position in society, one assumes he is an intelligent and articulate man, therefore i have to doubt whether he would take such an unintelligent view on this subject, as is seemingly being levelled at him.
In my opinion the reaction is a useless example of neanderthal knee-jerkism, and a weak excuse for more nationalist propaganda, and far outweighs what it is a reaction to in terms of volatility.

The usual educated Charlie's demonstrating their bigotry and insecurities. Like to see them shape up on the street. Democracy? What a laugh!!

Interesting the way you place an "or" in the question. If I do not wish British culture to become more Islamic then yes in this case I am an 'islamophobe' evidently. But obviously I am happy for Islamic countries to practise their own traditions (it is tiresome that I need to insert this disclaimer). I am not phobic of Islamic traditions per se, just in my own country with its Christian heritage and traditions of secular law. Why do you seek to label people 'islamophobic' in this unhelpful way? What do you mean by islamophobic anyway? Have some at the BBC now grown tired of the knee-jerk "You RACIST!" accusation? What is so wrong with wanting to defend one's national identity? In this increasingly atomised world we need something to bind us together.

I'm not going to give a yes or no answer as that simplifies the matter and reducing it to "which side are you on" debate.

As a Muslim, born and bred in the UK I worry when reading reader responses on the BBC website about how people perceive the issue of sharia law, when as a Muslim I can't even begin to explain what sharia law is. Can those wading in the debate even give examples of sharia law?

I wonder if some readers are even aware of their own British identity and are they frightened about another group which has perceived strong identities?

I am also worried that some of the responses reflect words to the effect of "go back to where you come from if you can't live under OUR laws."

Lastly, I just want to say that this 'debate' has NOT been prompted by Muslims publicly asking for Sharia law but from the Archbishop. Yet, reading the press you would think otherwise.

I value the spirit in which the Archbishop spoke but
I just want to say we don't want yet more spokespeople speaking on behalf of Islam. We can do that ourselves. The Archbishop should instead do more constructive work on behalf of his congregation.

I just don't understand how this kind of moral relativism can exist within the Anglican Church. I'm no Christian, and have no intention of defending the Christian faith as better than Islam, but surely this undermines the Archbishop's entire belief system.

Also, if we begin to introduce new laws for people of different beliefs where does the whole thing end?

Murder becomes fine for people who believe it to be so?

Speeding drivers given the all clear by Jeremy Clarkson?

What a load of absolute nonsense.

I think the way in which the Archbishops' comments are being attacked, distorted and blown out of proportion by some of the press/media is an irresponsible disgrace.
Clearly this man is in a position of some authority and influence, and as such must take due care when offering his views on hyper-sensitive topical issues, but he is now being treated as though he has advocated terrorism and fundamental extremism.
Due to his elevated position in society, one assumes he is an intelligent and articulate man, therefore i have to doubt whether he would take such an unintelligent view on this subject, as is seemingly being levelled at him.
In my opinion the reaction is a useless example of neanderthal knee-jerkism, and a weak excuse for more nationalist propaganda, and far outweighs what it is a reaction to in terms of volatility.

No they haven't been. But when preference is shown to a religious & political group (Islam) who's aims are to change the system of government and law (Check the Islamic Party of Great Britain's website) in this country for a medieval and barbaric system, and they are given credence then I think it is time for us, as civilized people, to worry.

Please get all religious nonsense out of legal and political affairs.

To expand on John Morris's comment above, I hope it turns out to be not only Islamophobic but religiophobic.

A culture has to have a rule of law that, as far as possible, excludes decisions based on what one person or body believes is true against what another person or body believes is true: i.e. the rule of law based on evidence. It's long past the time that the C of E was uncoupled from any links with the legislature and executive - and here comes Williams proposing that another religion should get in on the act!

I was in Pakistan in 1988 when Gen Zia declared Sharia. One result was the headline in The Khyber Mail, "Women Axed In TV Ads." Of course, they meant "from" TV ads but it added briefly to the gaiety of Nations, esp this one. The serious point is that Sharia law cannot be restricted, ring fenced, to a selection of aspects of life. My understanding is that it is a blueprint, a handbook, directing Muslims in every aspect of their lives. Mark Williams's proposal "Wedge, Thin End Of" and file under "shred".

What is he on ? Can I have some ? It clearly leads to delusional thought patterns of a higher order than those which I am use to. Remember religions are the source of much evil; responsible for many deaths and horrors than anything else.

No way should Sharia law be accepted. It is not fair nor reciprocated in Muslim countries for Christians.

Adopting some Sharia laws for some people will open up a whole new path of problems:
To what extent? What if a husband wants it to apply and his wife doesn´t? Further: can a non muslim person insist on his case being governed by Sharia - eg in a divorce case - on grounds of equality. How will we know if a man is a muslim or not. What if a muslim wants to be governed by the laws of the land - not Sharia. Is there a chance that a man will quickly convert to islam in order to eg facilitate a "softer" divorce - thereby depriving his wife of the protection intended for her in British laws. Who will decide if a given case falls under Sharia or British laws. AND this is only the thin end of the wedge - and once again the BRITISH people will suffer just like in matters of assylum seekers. You are "good and understanding" to others to your own detriment.
If people - any people - wish to live under Sharia laws they should go and live where it is practised.

I think that the Archbishop is being crafty. Saying one thing when he really means the opposite. I think he has a hidden agenda.

Phobia means fear. Should you fear Islamic law? Yes. Shari'a is a profoundly discriminating system of laws against non-Muslims and women. Go and see how entire thousand years old Christian, Zoroastrian and Animist communities are socially, politically and economically marginalized under Shari'a laws in Middle East or North Africa. Therefore, these non-Muslim communities are continuously shrinking till disappearance. Islamic law gives birth to second class citizens as the non-Muslim predominantly white aging population will sooner or later directly experience. We have a word in my country: "Don't get drunk with fresh water." I dare to make a prediction. In 50 years time from now tolerance will be a long forgotten concept in an Islamic Britain. (I understand if this comment will not pass. The glasses are too thick).

No way should Sharia law be accepted. It is not fair nor reciprocated in Muslim countries for Christians.

Adopting some Sharia laws for some people will open up a whole new path of problems:
To what extent? What if a husband wants it to apply and his wife doesn´t? Further: can a non muslim person insist on his case being governed by Sharia - eg in a divorce case - on grounds of equality. How will we know if a man is a muslim or not. What if a muslim wants to be governed by the laws of the land - not Sharia. Is there a chance that a man will quickly convert to islam in order to eg facilitate a "softer" divorce - thereby depriving his wife of the protection intended for her in British laws. Who will decide if a given case falls under Sharia or British laws. AND this is only the thin end of the wedge - and once again the BRITISH people will suffer just like in matters of assylum seekers. You are "good and understanding" to others to your own detriment.
If people - any people - wish to live under Sharia laws they should go and live where it is practised.

Since they are living in UK, there is only one civil code that is British Civil Code. And that is enough for all since they are all happy being with a British Citizen. If they are not happy they can go to back their own country where they have their own law of Sharia...
I, personally, do not think the reaction as "Islamophobic" but that is a caution.
As one of those invisible victim of "Islamic Fondamentalist", I only can say that "It is like a cancer virus and if you do not remove in the beginning, it will invade the whole body". It is that simple...
I am sorry but there is no place for democracy in so called "Islam".

I thought a thought that I thought I had thought but the thought that I had thought wasn’t the thought that I had thought I had thought so maybe if I had thought the thought that I thought I thought I wouldn't of thought so much…

Next time Dr Williams, think before you speak!!!

I think the ABC should have thought more carefully before opening his trap.
We Brits are generaly a reasonably easy going lot, live and let live etc.
BUT try to (suggest) we may have to overthrow or change our general custom & ways to incorporate an intollerant religeon - would be a change too far in my view.

Regardless of whether one thinks that the CofE is frankly rather sad in supporting minority interests because of its own failure to promote its core business of Christianity, you cannot have two legal systems operating in a civilsed western country.

Rather than make silly uninformed remarks, Rowan Williams would do well to go and experience Sharia Law in somewhere like Nigeria where it is alive and well in the northern part of the country and where it completely overrules the law of the land. Punishments (which follow extremely arbitrary judgements) include tieing women to a stake and beating them with a lash for having children out of wedlock and having your hand cut off for stealing a car.

Whether one thinks that a sterner form of justice might indeed be a good thing in this country, let us please stop this nonsense of allowing minority groups to do as they please and maybe start taking the same viewpoint that John Howard has recently taken in Australia, that they are a Christian country with Christian principles and where people speak in the main English, and if any muslims find this hard to take, there is nothing stopping them going back to their own lands to carry out their barbaric practices.

William Nation

I thought a thought that I thought I had thought but the thought that I had thought wasn’t the thought that I had thought I had thought so maybe if I had thought the thought that I thought I thought I wouldn't of thought so much…

Next time Dr Williams, think before you speak!!!

The archbishop should be ashamed of himself. Call himself a Christian, I think not. He should be promoting Christian family values not Sharia ones.

Perhaps the BBC news department should reflect on why it chooses to make certain items the lead item in the news, and on how the way these are presented help inflame issues and may, inadvertently one can only assume, encourage Islamophobia. One has only to look at message boards here and on newspapers today to see what a furore has been stoked up, most of it pretty anti-Muslim. I'm not sure exactly what the Archbishop had in mind; has he clarified his position? Has the reporting so far really shed much light on the issue? Sharia law is a highly complex field, given the different schools of Islamic jurisprudence, differences between different sects and in the legal code between different Muslim countries, different interpretations and different legal opinions on specific cases.

The BBC adopted the same sensationalist approach over the article bishop Michael Nazir Ali wrote in the Telegraph, on alleged no-go areas for non-Muslims, which the BBC picked as the lead item and seemed initially to take at face value. Only later were his views allowed to be challenged credibly and questions asked about where these "no-go areas" are, and whether this is a problem relating only to "Muslim areas" as opposed to other areas of high deprivation and poverty.

When investigating Islamic law, why not also have a look at the way Jewish law operates here. And at the eruv areas erected in Golders Green and elsewhere with the cooperation of local authorities, within which the laws of the Sabbath do not have to be followed rigorously. Or the way in which Rabbinical courts operate.

If the late Thomas a Becket was as controversial as some modern clerics, it is no wonder that the king was annoyed!

Liberal wishy washy rubbish! Sack him! So cowardly do they paint us that we will not stand up for our own culture. Maybe we don't deserve it. If Hitler arose to day this lot of pansies would give in before it began - to save lives and not upset the invaders...

Where will this stop? What next to 'appease' the 'new people' who keep arriving in huge numbers? Do we accommodate all of them and their needs? That surely would lead to a 'country' of factions killing each other.

We have a coherent culture grown out of thousands of years of strife and progress. It's so good that millions and millions and millions of foreigners come and benefit from the fruits of this long costly labour - in doing so they obtain rights and freedoms often not afforded to them in their country of origin. They can take part as full citizens but they cannot change it to suit themselves. To do so stops us being a nation.

That is not Xpohbic that is simply me trying to save my country and culture from being killed off. That's why we went to war against Hitler and others. Don't throw it away it's worth keeping...

I wish to live in a tolerant society. I therefore sympathise with the Archbishop’s request for us to look tolerantly on an individual’s request to look towards their own beliefs in settling domestic or personal matters. I am sure he had no intention of suggesting that Shia law would override or replace British law in this country.

I trust that he realized the effect his statement would make and was prepared to say what he truly believed in the full knowledge of what the media and bigots would make of it. He also has to represent the Church of which he is head and he must be fully aware of those in its ranks who would be alarmed at such an approach. We live in a democracy and all views, especially from such an authoritative and intelligent member of our society, should be heard and debated with respect.

For all his academic education, The Archbishop is ignorant and self pontificating. I wonder if he would be so tolerant of Sharia Law if the panel comprised only of women.

Dr. Rowan Williams made a gentle suggestion towards the inhabitants of Great Britan, he should hierin be recognized.

Ok fine, here is another religious guy who wants to turn our countries into religious states. More than that he is "preaching" for a breakdown of the union into groups of theocratic counties. There will counties where islamic law is predominant, ones where it anglican, ones where it is roman, ones where it is boudhism, ones where it is atheism. Yes! Then atheism has to become a religion!!!
Since we can still debate and have freedom of speech, I accept the debate, but the concept of nation even as a union implies a united set of rules. History shows that country building means that rules of law applies to all without distinction of intimate beliefs.
If the argument of that guy with pretended moral judgment is correct, there should already be an ID card to each of the citizen indicating their belief or not, so that in court or in daily life different rules could apply.
If the country has done well until now without, why should islam be some divisive? And is it really? If so, it should just be banned. If not, it should be asked to accept the laws of the UK. If you think that your religion cannot accept that kind of power sharing, then you should emigrate to Saoudi Arabia, Iran, Indonesia or wherever you feel fine like many jews do to Israel every year.
By the way, if Mr Archbishop is to be considered, how should that affect the status of the queen and future king?

I still hold to my view, as a devout Christian, that some parts of the Sharia law should be allowed, in the same way that the Jews are allowed some parts of their own law based on the Talmud.

The current Archbishop is the only one in my lifetime that is not afraid to speak out on controversial subjects, and you can believe that the words are carefully chosen

It does not surprise me to read through this comments page and see only one or two entries from people of Muslim faith. When the Archbishop made his comments, he made the same mistake as Pope Benedict XVI made in his ill-timed, unnecessary speech on the subject of Islam at university of Regensburg two years ago. Both MEN, and I capitalise the word MEN as that is what they are--not demigods’ as they would have us believe, are clearly stirring up hatred and anger towards the Islamic community.

All that has and will come from the Archbishops remarks is more and more resentment of the Muslim community. The media spin on the Archbishops statement will do nothing for the cohesion of society, which he will have been well aware of before making his remarks.

Any rational thinking person will know only too well that his comments, intentionally or not, will do nothing but increase the rise in Islamophobia.

The general populace of this country have little or no idea what Sharia law is, nor will they bother to find out. They will just watch the images portrayed in the media of people being whipped, shot, or having their hands cut off and think that is the Sharia law that is being spoken of, by the Archbishop.

In this country we are far removed from the barbaric scenes portrayed in the media, there is no call for Sharia laws by the Muslim populace, I have not read comments anywhere today by Muslims praising the archbishop for being their voice. So why even go there.

I am surprised and bewilldered about Archbishops untimely speech. I am muslim too but I feel if Archbishop looks all Islamic countries of the World sharia laws being considered unacceptable not even accommodated in their own legal system. Only exception is Saudi Arabia and part of Nageria. Iranian do not believe what rest of the Islamic world believes, therefore their case is totally different. These laws in reality have been sloganized to befool ordinary muslims by political and religious leaders Gen Zia of Pakistan is shining example.

I am so glad that not one person ias in favour of this senseless idea - the very thought!

There should be a separation of church and state in any secular society. Societies have failed to do so at their peril, and at the peril of those of their citizenry who are not of the "chosen" faith.
Those who choose to live in a secular society should abide by that society's laws and not try to impose religious laws upon that society.
On the secular society's part, tolerance of religious beliefs and norms must be tolerated, but not to the extent that such religious beliefs are imposed upon the society writ large. That is the balance which should be maintained.
The U.S. anti-abortion movement crosses the line between church and state clearly in attempting to impose religious beliefs as laws by outlawing abortion. (The particular religious beliefs in question concern when a human foetus becomes an individual and whether a human foetus has a soul.)
In direct answers to your questions:
1. The archbishop was incorrect to advocate crossing the boundary between church and state in a secular society.
2. Those who oppose his statements may or may not be reacting from Islamophobia. The distinguishing factor would be the basis for their arguments.

The Archbishop was naive to even suggest that ANY part of Sharia Law might be adopted in Britain. He should have known that there would have been an uproar and the majority of Britons would never accept it. On the contrary, anybody seeking to migrate to the UK should be prepared to accept and abide by British law as any Brit migrating to another country would naturally accept the law of that country. It's by no means Islamophobic to maintain that a Moslem who is not prepared to accept British law should not be allowed to live there, and that should be a condition of entry.

When in rome one should do as the Romans. When in the U.K. obey the laws of the U.K. If muslims wish to live here, to which I hve no objection, they should obey our laws.
Some of their own laws re brutal, and many escape to this country to escape the Islamic laws.
Think of the young girls who are forced into marriages to which they object. The young people are sufficiently mistified by the dual rulings that apply when they are taught in English schools, and then go home to families who expect them to obey Islamic rules. Is it any wonder that they suffer from depression and confusion? By all means respect the family, but in no way undertake liaisons which are against their wishes and consciences. The Archbishop is negating the Christian faith when he suggests two standards. It would cause Mayhem, and there is enough of that about already!

The Archbishop was naive to even suggest that ANY part of Sharia Law might be adopted in Britain. He should have known that there would have been an uproar and the majority of Britons would never accept it. On the contrary, anybody seeking to migrate to the UK should be prepared to accept and abide by British law as any Brit migrating to another country would naturally accept the law of that country. It's by no means Islamophobic to maintain that a Moslem who is not prepared to accept British law should not be allowed to live there, and that should be a condition of entry.

It is sad, troubling even, but inevitable in 2008 that the 'Islamophobic' tag is suggested as the possible reason for holding opinions polarised from those of the Archbishop.

Debate and rational discusson on admittedly sensitive issues is now bordering on impossible.

I see it from a Yank perspective. My system of government is by no means perfect, but I am convinced that its notion of absolute separation of church and state is a stroke of political genius. Marriage, divorce and property rights are fundamental and inalienable to every citizen. If the state defers to any sectarian law, it fails in its responsibility to uphold the civil rights of the individual.

William Johnson
Ipswich, MA USA

Of course the response is not Islmophobia. A phobia is an irrational fear. The responses have been based upon rational concerns. These concerns are continually provoked by cloudy thinking liberal left people like this person or by Muslims demanding some change in our culture or ways of operating.

Each time we raise our concerns about these issues in Britain someone somewhere cries Islamophobia often as an attempt at suppressing free speech. This word has the meaningless cache now of similar overused and abused words such as racism.

Don't you have the answer already on the thousands of posts on HYS? Just because English people do NOT want Sharia law (for all the cogent reasons on HYS and from commentators today) does not make the English "Islamaphobic" - it just makes them PRO-ENGLISH and PRO-ENGLISH CULTURE!!! And not a moment too soon!

What in the name of rational thought was the archbishop thinking? Is he seriously suggesting that a legal system whose roots are in the Middle Ages and one which does not recognize secular or humanist values,not to mention English common law,should be incorporated into the British legal system! Of course this is a threat to British values...values I might add that are not dependent on the rulings of clerics and imans! The simple fact of the matter is, unless in the 21st century we insist on a separtion of religion and the body politic we are going to continue to see religious extremists of every kind seeking to use government as a way of enforcement through any and all means. We cannot have a free society if we allow any theocratic system to compel everyone to follow and honour whatever code of conduct they demand.I fear that in the seemingly typical anglican need of being all things to all people it is in grave danger of becoming nothing to everyone!

Rowan Williams has said some daft things in his time but this must rank among the daftest. Talk about rubbing a sore, he has done more for the racist cause than he realises, and who gives him the authority to speak, the majority of people in this country are secular not Christian just look at church attendance. If the church was a business it would have been bankrupt long ago.

I'm not going to give a yes or no answer as that simplifies the matter and reducing it to "which side are you on" debate.

As a Muslim, born and bred in the UK I worry when reading reader responses on the BBC website about how people perceive the issue of sharia law, when as a Muslim I can't even begin to explain what sharia law is. Can those wading in the debate even give examples of sharia law?

I wonder if some readers are even aware of their own British identity and are they frightened about another group which has perceived strong identities?

I am also worried that some of the responses reflect words to the effect of "go back to where you come from if you can't live under OUR laws."

Lastly, I just want to say that this 'debate' has NOT been prompted by Muslims publicly asking for Sharia law but from the Archbishop. Yet, reading the press you would think otherwise.

I value the spirit in which the Archbishop spoke but
I just want to say we don't want yet more spokespeople speaking on behalf of Islam. We can do that ourselves. The Archbishop should instead do more constructive work on behalf of his congregation.

Is Rowan Williams recruiting for the BNP..........what a gift?

Would a Muslim who supports the Archbishop agree that British people living in a Muslim country should be protected by British law and so, shall we say, be party to a same-sex "marriage", or purchase and drink alcohol, or even the women wear "revealing" clothes such as a mini skirt if they so desired?

Surely the Archbishop displays a number of serious conceptual misunderstandings underlying this subject. Or at least a failure to follow the logic?

For instance, the axiomatic belief in - or identity with - a nation state. While the Archbishop appears to recognise that this is an issue in question, does he not draw entirely the wrong conclusion?

For this and other, I would think fairly obvious, conceptual and practical reasons, sharia law is incompatible both with our democracy and with our law.

I find it difficult to see how the Archbishop can regain, and retain, his position.

This is based not on Islamophobia but, I suggest, a rather better grasp of some fundamental issues surrounding this complex subject than the Archbishop displays.

I suppose it is only fitting for the CE clergy to welcome Shari'a law in a nostalgic attempt to recostruct the brutal decapitation of Anne Boleyn, who gave them their raison d'etre.
While the good Archbishop is cheerleading the dawn of Shari'a in the British Isles, the good Shari'a folks are busy brutalizing a woman who had the audacity to enjoy a cup of latte with a male coleague at a Starbucks in Riyadh.
Are the British people who gave us the Magna Carta, Newton, Blake and and and.... going to allow this kind of regression? I hope and pray they don't.
While Britain may no longer be the colonial superpower it once was, it is still the nucleus of modern Western civilization. Destroy the nucleus and watch the electrons fly off in a mad frenzy.

The comments are outragious, why should everyone keep having the Muslim issue in our news every day. As a practising Roman Catholics we have managed to get on with our belief and also obey the law of the country.

At second hearing, I think I comprehend the Archbishop is trying to be accommodating, and non-exclusive to Muslims; possibly over-compensating in order to set an example in some 'christian' focus and value ambit. Is he either naive, foolish, ignorant of history. Such uncertain footing in the World when he represents a failing traditional, fictional, intellectual system that is only appropriate for calming children and those who fear extinction or death. ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

However, I am not a Christian nor a Muslim, though I am willing to accept many of their non-dogmatic behavioural treatise as to how mankind should behave, though I can't accept the source reason of why a religion should be powerful, because I believe their function is solely socio-political. I also can't comprehend why muslims come to this Country if they seek to live under 'Shariah' code. They should stay in those Countries where there is a greater chance of achieving that.

If we go to an Islamic state, we are not granted to only obey UK law. These issues always become a wedge historically, wherein only a small
change now, enables greater leverage down the years. Take the issue of British demands to the Imperial Chinese Government in the 19th Century, and the concessions they were forced to allow. It was good for the British but not for the Chinese.

The Archbishop of Canterbury should know if anyone should, "man cannot serve two Masters", in which case the 'masters' would be codes of religious and secular law. A cause of friction and aggravation if anything could be.

Religion, politics and the legal system should all, always be kept separate. It is not islamophobic to think this- it is religiophobic. But it is not even that- it is not a fear.

It is impossible to get inside of Dr. Williams head as to what he said versus what he meant. However, on such a religious and politically sensitive topic such as this, we should not have to. There should not be a need for senior priests to emerge and explain what Dr. Williams really meant! As the leader of a Christian Church he should not place "politcal correctness" over what is right and what is wrong.

Perhaps Dr. Williams needs to spend some time in countries which practice Islamic law, and it would serve him well to bring with him some of the female members of his flock. Then he can open his mouth!

I speak as someone who has very liberal values. But I am surprised and annoyed to have learnt the following.

"Polygamous marriages conducted by Muslims outside the UK are reported to have been given legal recognition by the British government, even allowing husbands who bring more than one wife to the country to claim welfare benefits.

The government in December last year concluded a year-long review that found recognition of polygamous marriages conducted overseas as "the best possible" option, the UK's Daily Telegraph newspaper reported. The decision has not been publicly announced."

Why was this not given wider coverage and discussion by the media. This is absolutely ridiculous and capitulates to forces who would like to divide us as a country into those who have one set of secular laws, and those who can freely apply another due to their religion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/03/nbenefit103.xml

I am glad this is being debated more widely - it needs it, because this nonsense, and it is nonsense, has got to stop before all our human rights and civil liberties are trampled over .

He's a silly man. If he'd said that some Muslims might like to abide by their own rules, so long as these were compatible with British law, there wouldn't be a problem.
Surely the rules of a church are on a footing with the rules of a sports club, or of a place of work. People who belong to a club or firm by and large consent to the organisation's procedures and methods of solving disputes.
But if there is a perceived injustice, then the club member can appeal to the law of the land as a higher authority. This has to apply to religious groups as well.

Declan Mcquire,I agree with you Totaly,We must not give our Land up Or our Laws,We must stay together on this one ,We are a Untited Country.And has to stay that way ,before its to late.

i respect all the opinions & i beleive that this man know very well what he's saying since he has experienced all the laws...he's now convinced that Islam is the truth & its laws are the solution.

I think we should give it serious consideration after the Pope marries and Muslim countries with Sharia law incorporate British and Ecclesiatical law into their own constitutions. By the way whar's wrong with Islamophobia? I have a phobia about heights but am not prejudiced against ladders. Phobia means irrational fear - I see nothing irrational about fear of Sharia.

Let us all Remember that this is Great Britain a christian country. If anyone feels uncomfortable living in a christian country surely they should leave and go elsewhere where they are able to feel more at home!

"Who will rid us of this troublesome priest?" - King Henry II of England, 1170.

I can hardly believe this issue is being raised now in Britain. We in Ontario (Canada) had a long drawn out debate about this. You should have learned from our unpleasant experience. It's the original can of worms and has nothing to do with Islamophobia. I'm sorry to hear that pejorative term used by the BBC. The reason the idea was rejected here was the fact that Canadian law and Sharia law are very different when it comes to womens' marital rights and property inheritance. How can you combine apples and oranges? Who would make the ultimate decision on these very sensitive issues? How do you avoid perceived insults? It's impossible...

I was shocked and horrified when I heard his pronoucement. We are a great nation and there is only one law here and that is British Law.

He should concentrate on the Church of England. For too many years the church has put its head in the sand and failed to reach out to people in this country. There are so many things the Archbishop could be doing to modernise and promote the church especially for young people. A debate on the modernisation of the church would be great on News Night.

Thanks for allowing me to voice my opinion.

GRASPING THE NETTLE

Most of the comments here sadly, and predictably, show little grasp of the pragmatic realities. They are difficult, and there are powerful (socio-economic) contingencies at work which make them very hard to perceive clearly.

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world because of its TFR (Total Fertility Rate). That of secular liberal democrats is negative (below 2.1), meaning that these populations are falling (masked by a temporary ageing population), hence all the immigration into Europe and the USA.

The Muslim world is anti-usury and many of the other 'human rights' (aka far-left) values which are, as I have said before, at the root of this demographic suicide (or warfare depending on how you choose to see it).

This is a pragmatic issue based on demographics and behaviour.

Nearly all of the comments posted above appear to be oblivious to this. This is a sad reflection of dysgenesis in the developed world I suggest.

If anyone wants to reverse this, it will mean abandoning some of our secular, 'liberated', ways, and adopting some of the Islamic practices (whether we call them that or not, they are also, paradoxically, Orthodox Judaic to a point). This is about in-group and out-group behaviours.

For anyone interested, this point has been made many times in this blog, over the past year. If anyone is serious about debating what the Archbishop said, they are going to have to grasp this nettle. The Muslims are right on this, we in the secular liberal-democratic world have got it wrong, and the numbers make that irrefutable.

Rather typical of the BBC to label as "Islamophobic" the almost universal rejection of Dr Williams' suggestion. People seem to have, in fact, responded quite a rationally given the examples of so-called Islamic or Sharia Law that we see around the world.

Perhaps the real question should be is it right, in our multicultural society, to have an established church?

I find the reaction to the Archbishop's statement shocking on several levels:
1) The media have been irresponsible in the two ways: (i) they have taken the comments out of their context (ii) they have failed to explain what sharia law actually is.
(This is valid for Radio talk show hosts, tabloids and even the broadsheets)
2) The general population has a limited understanding what what sharia law is and no appreciation of the fact that the British Legal system already allows people from faiths such as the Jewish faith to submit a decison to an arbitration process guided by the Jewish Community

How many collum inches have been written about this? It seems no one wants to really understand the nuances of the debate that the Archbishop was trying to open - All we hear is people's entrenched Manichean views. Society does not make any progrees from this stort of mass hysteria!!!!

(1) Has anybody looked at what Sharia law means for the women of, for example, Basra at the moment? they say they have less freedom than ever, and go in fear of their lives if they do not follow exactly the requirements of Sharia for women.
(2) What kind of message will this send out to the world, and those who rely on Britain as THE centre of sanity and freedom? (3) Is Sharia central to Islam, or not? (4)If yes, is it not the avowed purpose of Islam (governed by Sharia) to create a caliphate spanning the world, and to do this via local national "communities"? and (5)does not it contain the deathly "jihad" concept? On your programme tonight, We Should Be Told - !

It is a pernicious attack on universal human rights, which enables the Church to retain its doctrine that clashes with modern thinking, such as gay rights.

I believe this episode simply goes to show that the Church of England should be disestablished and the UK converted to a secular state as quickly as possible. Fatuous men in robes and mitres (or turbans) are simply not worthy of the attention they seem to command. It is high time the human race treated them with the contempt they deserve and moved on from the ancient superstitions they propound.

It seems to me that the Archbishop is exhibiting two of the very best Christian qualities.
1. He is listening thoughtfully to the concerns of others.
2. He is not being judgemental.
If only this was true of those who are responding so noisily.

I have very serious doubts that the journalists who made this into a 'shock-horror'-story, and the many people who read only these stories, have taken the trouble to actually read the Archbishops whole lecture, which he gave at the Royal Courst of Justice.
Here's the link:
http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/1575#top

It is a demanding and long lecture, so perhaps too heavy-going for our times of sound-bites and dumbing-down.

As someone has said further up here - his 'agenda' is not to have all of Britain come under Sharia law - his agenda is something totally different.

Just look at his last paragraph - and it becomes clear that the discussion ought not to be about Sharia and/or Islamophobia, but about what sort of society we live in, and what role religion in general has to play in it.

Something eminently debatable, I think.

I confess to knowing more about Denis Law than Sharia Law, but when I heard of Rowan Williams' statement, I knew strightaway that he should go. Rather than drag it out over several days, I suggest an early exit this weekend, so that the Anglican Church can start afresh on Monday morning.

Let him be allowed to speak out - he is the only Archbishop in my lifetime who does.

How many of the criticisms are from church-going christians.

The Archibishop for sure was misunderstood, because it is not possible he suggested to accept the muslim law based on a primitive fanatism, where a mariage,known as a union of two persons,in their law, as a union of 5 persons,and the wife compelled to be shaved on her sexual parts of the body and hooded like a phantom,not to eat pork meat,to use the right hand,in absolute,without a fork,because the left hand is used exclusively at the W.C.where hygenic paper is not allowed.I lived for four years with a Pakistany lady doctor.

In 2001 over 390,000 people put Jedi Knight as their religion - so what about using the Jedi code for us? There is a serious point here... of the dozen or more Muslims I know most are Muslim in name rather than practise - and none want Sharia law. There may be over 2-million people who call themselves Muslim but that is as meaningless as the millions who call themselves CofE and never attend church.

I think the Bishop needs to re-think the whole thing and start doing his proper job - the Mimistry of Jesus Christ.

"At 04:52 Bedd Gelert quotes the Telegraph: "Polygamous marriages conducted by Muslims outside the UK are reported to have been given legal recognition by the British government, even allowing husbands who bring more than one wife to the country to claim welfare benefits.

The decision has not been publicly announced."

Even Burnham the Minister for Culture and therefore a senior member of the Government on Question Time last night had never heard of this when it was raised by an audience member.

It makes me wonder what other deals with Muslim bodies this secretive Government is doing behind our backs and deliberating not announcing them. Surely isn't this an important topic for Newsnight to investigate?

Reply to Adrienne. Yes, the Muslims are against usury, but they sure have found a way to get around that. Instead of charging interest, Islamic banks take fixed "equity" interests in the borrowers personal equity which are convulutedly devised not to be a function of the "going concern" concept of the business. The "equity" interests are draconian. The concept of usury has been used historically as a disguised anti-semitic slur going back to the Bard's Merchant of Venice. Even Ezra Pound put it in poetry in his Pisa Cantos while using his voice to sing the praises of that sweet teddy bear,Il Duce.
Insofar as your quaint use of acronyms to add validity to your argument, allow me to inform you that frogs also have a very high TFR. So, de let us accept the legal system of frogs.

The Archbishop a "useful idiot" provides another step towards an Islamic UK. Looked at from another angle he obviously does nt agree with womens' rights.

I know Rowan Williams to be a deeply thoughtful and humane man. He is profoundly aware of the differing faith styles that exist in the world. His comments were very carefully chosen and showed a deep respect for the Muslims living in this country and the Islamophobia that has been exacted on citizens who have lived for sometimes three generations in this country as British members that have made them feel unwelcome in their own homes and local communities. In my view, the more we learn about the truth of Islam and Sharia law, without all the terrible stories that abound in the red tops, the more we can make comment that is fair. Then we can move on as we have with many over the centuries who support our way of life in all its historical richness, liberality and loving acceptance to follow their different faiths peacefully. Jews from war torn Europe, Roman Catholics from Ireland and now Poland, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists from all over the world. The only thing we should question is when we see the freedom of any human being being taken away, be they women, people who are elderly and disabled, people who wish to choose their own sexuality preference, etc. As Ken Livingstone years ago said, we should sit down with the IRA to try to come to some agreement for the sake of Peace. He was pilloried in the same red tops and even some heavies, as the misjudged Rowan has had to put up with, so it came to pass that John Major conducted secret talks, and today we see a new Northern Ireland and a better understanding of those things which separated the nations views.
My advice to those crying out 'Foul'is this; listen carefully to what he really said, fully, and do not present your prejudiced opinions of what he said as fact.

Forget name calling, this is a debate.
The rule of law to be fair and to deliver any kind of justice, is based
on equality before the law. Sharia
law does not qualify as males are
priviledged and females have few if any choices-what to wear, who to marry, even to be a Muslim. Parties
to judgements are not merely unequal,
women face threats of violence,
rape and death to get compliance. You
do not need to go to a Muslim country
to see the horrors inflicted, you need to work in an Islamic community
right here. To throw Muslim women to
the lions, I feel, is not Christian.
Sharia law is, in addition, understood to mean vastly different
things to different sects and genders
etc. Much of the violence and
dysfunctional mayhem in so many Islamic countries stems from violent
disagreement so if you brought Sharia
here, it would be only the start of
the further fracture of the UK.
Williams has been talking to Muslim men, he needs to learn from
women what it is like to live under
Sharia law.
We have values, institutions, courts etc etc that represent not
only hundreds of years of learning
the hard way but give us some peace
and ,when men like this speak with
more thought, tranquility. Why can
we not spend time understanding WHY
things more or less work and why in
Islamic countries they don't. You
cannot declare war on women and
achieve justice.

Laws, when they protect the human rights of a individual, being benevolent to all, then they may well be justified. But for what I see of many laws is oppression, loss of freedom and defamation of human maturity.

Sharia law no. Don't add on any additional laws and please begin resending many other unjust laws that already exist.

There is a quote on a insulated beverage holder that might sum up the abuse of our freedom of ownership and our freedom of conduct. It reads: "Do it today, tomorrow it might be illegal."

I have a great deal of respect for the Archbishop and realise he is presiding over the Anglican church during an extremely difficult period but he is way off the mark with his recent comments.

Sharia means different things to different sects within Islam and generally, I believe, would represent an abuse of the human rights of Muslim women if it is allowed to creep into civil legitimacy.

The best aspects of Islam are wonderful but, like my own faith Catholicism, the worst aspects are simply hideous and an affront to human dignity.

The Archbishop is wrong from ANY angle. The two systems of government can never co-exist in one society. However, it has already been introduced in Britain by stealth. The introduction of Islamic banking under Shariah law is already in existence. As well, some banks in this land have opened new Islamic programs for purchase of property with paying interest. The only aspect of the issue at hand is not the introduction of Sharia, but giving it a more free hand to establish a new system of government in Britain. This is an objective of Islam, as described in many books published and sold in this land. There are already two sets of laws in Britain...one for Islam and one for everyone else.

You are all getting hysterical about an entirely reasoned discussion. Are you incapable of seeing the immense contribution that Islam has made to world culture, education, and thought over many centuries? What you are doing is fuelling anti-muslim sentiment in ways that are deeply damaging to the plurality of our society and our British values of fairness and respect. For goodness sake cool it and understand that we all have much to learn from each other.

English Law should be the only Law in this Country.

No1 The response is not Islamophobic,
it is democratic to be able toy voice opinions. The Archbishop is supposed to be an "intellectual", his comments only prove he has no common sense!
Introduction of some other type of jurisprudence would lead to more discord and strife. It would also lead to more vociferous calls for the full Sharia Law to apply.
The DANGER is some people being above or apart from the law. It is already offensive that our Government choses to subsidise polygamy & hand out £10,000 a year to men claiming for FOUR wives!
There should ONLY be ONE law for everyone, and anyone who doesn't like that should chose to live elsewhere!
Different laws will do nothing for social cohension

What a bumbling fool!!!!!!!

Just resign, no one will take any notice of him now.

As we who travel the world and those who
settle in other countries do so will the knowledge that they are subject to their laws.

I'm really getting sick of this. I am a Christian, and this is a Christian-based culture. Over the centuries we have welcomed countless people from numerous different cultures, but never have we been expected to change our ways of life or legal system for them.

You cannot have different legal systems applying to different people within the same society. Unless, of course, you want that society to fall apart. To be honest, I'm not even sure that all that many Muslims want Sharia law. But for those that do, tough - there are plenty of places to live in the world that do operate that system. Why is it that such a fuss never seems to be made by, for example, Buddhists, Sikhs or Hindus? Islam is an important faith, and I certainly have respect for it, but the proportion of the UK popultion which belongs to it is tiny.

As for the Archbishop, it is part of the Christian faith to preach tolerance and peace. But he should spend more time guiding the Christian flock of this country, which is his main role, and leave the leaders of other faiths to speak for themselves in matters such as this.

The Archbish has certainly stirred some controversy here.

However, the gravest threat facing the church today is - believe it or not - the wholescale vandalism of thousands of Anglican church buildings as thieves nick the lead off rooves in increasingly huge quantities. A consequence of exploding global metal prices, apparently.

I find it interesting that Rowan Willians can pronounce of matters which he has no control over but when it comes to a more prosaic, but hugely important, issue affecting the actual physical infrastructure of the C of E, he has no comment.

In fact, when asked by a regional tv programme recently about the issue of church lead thefts, he said he didn't know anything about it.

Skewed priorities or what ? Is the Archbishop's huge intellect just too high powered to be concerned by such trivialities as the wholescale plundering of his churches? The guy's away with the fairies.

hi if you want to live in the country obey its laws or dont bother comming into the country

http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/C/can_you_believe_it/debates/divorce.html

The Archbishop of Canterbury is right to raise the question - it needs a debate in which the wider Muslim community have a chance to be engaged in debate with their own leaders about whether they really want to be subject to laws where they risk having their hands cut off. Do these leaders really represent the views of Muslim citizens of this country?

For example in C4's documentary this week 'Divorce Sharia Style' Senior Judge and Secretary of the Sharia Council, (based at the Regent Park Mosque) Sheikh Hassan, says: ‘We know that if Sharia laws are implemented then you can change this country into a haven of peace. Because once a thief’s hand is cut off, nobody is going to steal. If only once an adulterer is stoned, nobody is going to commit this crime at all. There would be no rapist[s] at all. This is why we say that, yes, we want to offer it to the British society. … And if they don’t accept it, they would need more and more prisons.'

Is the Archbishop of Canterbury 'flying a kite' to get the debate going in Muslim communities and to enable other voices to be heard?

I believe that we should accept genuine immigrants/asylum seekers into our country.
It is, however, not racist or "Islamophobic" to expect these immigrants/asylum seekers to accept our laws, customs, traditions and heritage. After all we did not chose them, they chose us.
Britain and the British are noted for the freedoms we have and bestow on our citizens. With these freedoms comes responsibilities.
If these immigrants/asylum seekers do not like our way of life they have that other great freedom, the freedom to leave.

What do the British troops in Afghanistan think about the Archbishop of Canterbury's wish to adopt and include even any part of Sharia into the British/English law system?

When in Rome do as the Romans do !!

I pray the African leaders will work fast to combat the situation in Kenya!
I wonder why they have to wait for so long! dont you see the people dieing? Kenya is fast moving to a first class genocide country if prompt action is not taken.
Why cant African leaders tell kebaki to step down and another election is conducted?
For the sake of my African brothers and sisters I pray that you do something now to save souls.
Kenyans, remember there is no place like home. Dialogue-dialogue is the only answer.

Do they reflect fear of Islam? Of course. You bet. Totally rationally. The mullahs would have me stoned to death in an instant. And the eminence given the story brings more members to Moslem groups and binds existing members stronger.

Might one suggest that Newsnight gives slightly grossly excessive coverage to Islam? It seems to average about twice a week recently. Rationally, would perhaps one story every six months not be fair in the sole BBC programme charged with intelligent coverage of all domestic and international news and current affairs?

The Archbishop has given a gift to anyone with anti-Islamic views. And he has given newspaper columnists and media in general sufficient material for many days.

What exactly he was referring to might be clarified on tonight's Newsnight programme.

Some Britons when they read of, or are affected by, a horrific murder might wish that the murderer could be beheaded; and some who become victim of a violent robbery might think it a good idea if the thief's hand was cut off as punishment. In other words - to spell it out - the Sharia law could be something that those who clamour for capital punishment (apparently a majority in this country) might welcome if they opened up their minds.

But it's assumed that those punishments weren't what the Archbishop was proposing.

It's strange that the head of our Christian church should be in favour of implementing in Britain the laws of another religion. We need to know more about what he has in mind before rushing into a judgement.

In general my own view is that it's better if the law of the land is secular and that the same law applies to everyone no matter what their
religion.

I have just read the book Towards the Light by A. C. Grayling about the eternal struggle for liberty and freedom of thought and low and behold the Archbishop of Canterbury suggest we turn the clock back over 1400 years. Is he mad? Is is so out of touch with our secular society? Clearly he has no understanding or insight by these myopic remarks. He should take a cold bath and a stiff whisky and go to bed for a couple of hundred years.

We've discovered here in the US that they seem to want a law for themselves and NO law for anyone else. This from a religion of peace? Seems they're hell-bent on charging back to the 7th century...

Islam is an ideology not a race, an ideology that most people in the west disagree with, so yes it is islamophobia and for all the right reasons. I have friends from many different cultures and backgrounds, but I love the secular one we live in and don't feel comfortable with the drastic Sharia acceptance that could occur further down the line with things such as corporal punishment and the treatment of women. I am aware that this is not what Dr Rowan Williams is proposing, but every heroin addict started off on cannabis (I will assume that you got the analogy)

British law, as American law, has become such a hotch-potch of draconian legislation which is antithetic to the very concept of liberty, let alone the practice. The incorporation of certain aspects of another legal system which, if modified in the crafting of the legislation, may be of large social benefit, a concept totally foreign to the thought processes of Parliament and Congress alike. Did the Archbishop advocate the replacement of Crown authority with that an Islamic council of some sort? No. Did he, essentially, say that British law regarding marriage and property could benefit from the incorporation of certain aspects of Sharia law? Yes. Had he kept Sharia out of the presentation, citing a hypothetical change to a system which is reeling from the adverse effects of 'chains and shackles, Si! Fairness and liberty, No!'; he probably would have been lauded as a friend to the people; the downside of that perception is this, a friend to the people is an enemy of the State. How do the Crown and Parliament see him today? Do they see him as a mispoken person of good will, or as an enemy of the State? How do the people see him? As a misspoken person of good will, or as an enemy of the State? The British people of today have no more say in affairs regarding their persons, property or papers than have the American, and to speak out in defense of any idea or change which could, would or should improve the lot of the people who are mulcted of their substance risks a late night flight to Guantanamo. Is the Archbishop still there?

I think that the Archbishop was being deliberately provocative just for the sake of it. He has not been in the news for some time and was frightened of being forgotten and overlooked. As for the Anglian priests remarking that he was only referring to marriages etc; was a rather pathetic excuse for his ridiculous outburst.We should ignore these ramblings of a has been.

In a civilised society, you accept and abide by the laws of the country in which you live. If you do not like them, you are free to move elsewhere. What you may not do is move to a different system and then seek to change it to suit your own needs.

Objecting to the Archbishop's proposals is in no way Islamaphobic. It is simply a statement of the obvious. Whether through immigration or by accident of birth, you live in the UK and you will abide by the law of the land. If you want to live under a different system, go elsewhere.

The straight answer is NO. You cannot splint one part of Sharia law for the whole. You cannot have one group outside of English law for whatever reason. I know that Scotland has its own laws and some groups will hold that as an example in favour of Sharia law, but ALL Scotland is subject to one law. That idea should apply all over Britain. A cynic would say that it would be the thin end of wedge if it did happen, but that wedge is already here.

Religious laws are - by definition - socially divisive, but sharia laws are intentionally malicious.
Muslims may bleat and cry about supposed "islamophobia", but are they being beheaded for rejecting local laws and norms? Muslims do precisely that to gays and apostates under sharia.
Hypocrisy, thy name is islam.

If muslims were willing to civilise islam, I wouldn't mind, but killing people for differences of religion is evil. Uncivilised religion has no right to exist. Anywhere.

The Archbishop's suggestion about sharia law provides more than sufficient reason if more were needed to rid the House of Lords of all the bishops.

All religions are just organised superstitions and merit no more deference than belief in fairies.
They are not the arbiters of morality but are misguided fools blind to reason and the overwhelming evidence contradicting their belief systems.

There is no place for superstitious religious nonsense in the the framing of our laws and this prelate demonstrates the depths of lunacy they are capable of.

#175 Terry Browning.

You are absolutely right about religious laws generally although I have reservations about your specific comments regarding Islam, not least because sharia law is not universally accecpted and observered in the Islamic world.

I prefer to argue that religion is a personal matter and that individuals and families may pursue their chosen beliefs in private, but the law is a secular matter. In multi-cultural and multi-racial societies, the sooner we learn to separate matters of law from questions of faith, the better off we will be.

where does it all end??? our boundaries are blurring... we are in england, please lets keep it essentially english....we have an immigration problem here for a variety of reasons, one being because our systems are envied.... why change it?

Nobody forced them,muslims,to come to Britain,if they decide to come to Britain,they should also be able to accep the laws and way of life in Britain.in my opinion, the archbishops comment is absurd.

#177 Geoff Heald.

'organised superstitions', ' misguided fools blind to reason', 'superstitious religious nonsense', 'depths of lunacy'.

Geoff, I share your view of religious faith but refuse to be associated with the language. My view is quite simply that we need to separate the two. If the Archbishop has achieved anything, it is to emphasise the imperative of disestablishment and the creation of a secular state.

The Jews have their religious court and have for a long time. They are not enshrined in English law although decisions made regarding such matters as divorce have to be confirmed via normal English law.
I understand that the Moslems have their religious courts so why should they be treated any differently? There is no need so why has the Archbishop raised the matter.
Are the Muslims in the UK a more significant section of the population than the Pakistanis, the Indians or the Jamaicans? I don't think so.
The leaders of the Muslim community in the UK are altogether too noisy about their rights or alledged lack of them. If they want Sharia law why don't they go and live in a country that has them.
Which poses the question why, if they are true believers, have they come to live in a land peopled by infidels, people whose customs and public behaviours must be totally abhorrent to them. Or are they all just plain old opportunists content to suck life, like leeches, from the benevolent and generally good natured British social systems. By any standards they have a better life and more freedom than in the countries many of them have left. They should quit moaning while they are ahead or go back home and do likewise.
And the Archbishop should think more carefully about this matter.

What I find depressing is that so much hoo-hah is being produced from what this third rate philosopher has spouted about a bunch of ideas that are essentially superstious nonsense. How can so much news be generated from what basically boils down to a bunch of people who believe in unseen, supernatural being(s) that control every aspect of everything but at the same time don't because, like, we have free will but you better do as he says (sorry, what his self-appointed spokesmen proclaim that he says) or you'll be "separated from god for eternity if you're on the liberal end of the religion stick, or eating molten sand for eternity if you're on the other, rather hateful end.

If you choose to live in a country then you abide by the laws of that country.It's that simple.

I would like all commentators to reflect on the following: Firstly, the Archbishop is a man of intelligence, foresight, humility and devotion. Is he not entitled to his view in a secular democracy without being pilloried from all sides? Or is this freedom valid when mocking the Prophet Muhammad, but to be opposed when appearing to promote the right of Muslims?
Secondly, if Jews already enjoy arbitration in their own courts in civil matters - why can Muslims not enjoy the same privilege?
Thirdly, if Muslim individuals voluntary consent to judgement by Shariah law, without infringing on the rights of others - why should anybody else care?
Fourthly, the legal system has already integrated Shariah requirements for business transactions and finance - why is it so outrageous that this be extended into civil arbitration in family law?
Fifthly, the vast majority of Muslims have lived happily under British law for decades, while trying to make their day-to-day lives more compliant with Islam in a gradual and integrated manner - why should their loyalty be questioned because an outsider has suggested that some parts of their law deserve greater recognition?
Sixthly, the application of Shariah law, just like the application of secular or other law, can be unjust and unfair - but is not an inherent quality of it. The Archbishop has himself recognised that in its time - Shariah law set the benchmark for women's rights. If the application of Shariah law is so detrimental to women - is that due to the enforcement of the law or the law itself?

I support the archbishop's comments.
Surely he is just encouraging debate and discussion.
We do need hold a mass-debate when it comes to Muslim sensitivities and needs in western society and their desire for Sharia law in local communities.
We should mass-debate the issues in Burnley, Bolton, Rochdale, Bury, Nelson, Oldham ECT.
The people of Bradford could come together and hold mass-debate sessions involving all the local clergy and community leaders.
Only through debate can we come to terms with the issues faced in modern multicultural Britain and finally learn to love, cherish and laugh at each other inadequacies.

The responses to this article have shown that Islamophobia is really just another expression of the classical racism and xenophobia. White anglo-saxon Christians have, clearly, yet to recognise that because someone prays or looks different, they are not somehow less British. Muslims, even those with brown or black skin, are just as British as anyone else. And while Jews, another minority, have had the beth din for centuries, Muslims are now finding the voice to request that same level of religious autonomy. Frankly, where it not for the bigotry, and inherent racism, this would not be that big a deal.

If you want to live in Britain, then you need to live by British laws! There shouldn't be any special treatment for anyone. Our culture is what we're used to and outsiders need to respect our culture and fit in, or go elsewhere.

If I didn't know who he was I would have been convinced that it mast have been made by an absolute Idiot !!Even if he was thinking only about marriage and inheritance etc laws doesn't he know that a Muslim women can not get divorced and cant inherit etc... Should our Muslim citizens leave by laws of stone age man? You would think that before migrating to a country you would inquire abbot they laws and if you didn't like they systems would stay were you are !
Quite bluntly IDIOTIC

Having now studied the entirety of the Archbishop's speech at the Courts of Justice, in the version on his own website, my opinion of him is worse. It is obvious he used the controversy that his mentions of Sharia would certainly bring to cover his main thrust, which is to denigrate concepts of universal equal, secular legal rights in favour of special allowance being made for religions. In other words, in the UK context, he stirred anti-Islamic sentiment in largely promoting freedom for Christian prejudices.

He makes quite clear that Christian desires to continue to persecute their traditional bêtes noires, homosexuals, as threatened by recent legislation, especially the pressure on Roman Catholic adoption agencies, has been his prompt. One cannot but imagine that preventing further advancement of women in his church's structure, separating it further from Rome and it's African mutant offspring is another.

At the core of the very densely worded, and verbose, argument are several false, or at best ignorant assertions, which make me wonder if he is nothing more than an over-promoted vicar prancing dangerously on a world stage. But perhaps one should assume he acts from knowledge.

He asserts that the ideal of universal equality before the law is based upon Christianity, when obviously it is far older (Buddhism, for example), and Christianity has often been totally opposed, causing the cruel deaths of many of their victims. He smears that equality led to the massacres of the French revolution and Mao's China. He make out that religions merely wish space for their own members when it is a long and continuing tradition of most Abrahamic religions to demand, because they say they have a direct line to the all-powerful, single god (other traditions believing in either multiple gods or none), that all around them obey their rules: anti-abortion pressure, restricted Sunday opening, lesbians and gays not allowed equal marriage, compulsory acts of worship in state schools. Need one list more? The man is mendaciously disgraceful.

Just to reinforce the very first comment also from Ontario...we prevented our provincial government from doing this, thanks to a campaign led by the moderate /modernist part of our Moslem community and in its retreat the government removed the pre existing Jewish marital courts.

I believe he is being realistic to what is happennng today in Britain...
Moslem living abroad or inEngland and or thorugh europe..it is a way to
protect also british culture and anglican ways and laws..it is a way
of refrain ofputting a detente to others ways or cultures in a way
they would haveto resolve theri iusses intheri own way and laws
specially delicate matters as marriage and property rites it will
act as a religious way allmost like
the Catholics way with the Vatican and the anullment procedures..and viceversa where for example the
Catholic Annullment will not accept
a procedure of anullment if the
civil divorce had not taken place
before seal and with previous councell and taping and records
and with a meeting of possible
reconciliation ...and atthe same time they have their ways of also accepting the property rights before
the anullment..and viceversa they
also have their regulations sin Canon Laws concernng the abandonement
of a wife and so many laws that initimately relate and serve as evidence under the civil Law..
for example under Catholic tradition a owman that tjhrow her husband away has eventually lost all her vow and rights as a wife before the eyes of God/unless otherwise prooven and
so on..they have judicial cannon
laws as well and it continues..I think in a way its good because he is putting a borderline/and a stop...to protect english laws too
and their culture andto sort of purify the concept..fo coruse it should be open to all religions
that live there...by the same concept

Allegedly, Dr Rowan Williams said the UK had to "face up to the fact" some citizens did not relate to the UK legal system."

TOUGH, wherever you choose to live you abide by the Law of that country, and you have the freedom to practice your religion, if the country of choice is a member State of the United Nations.

Hells Granny

The truth of the matter is that the proof is in the pudding. Muslim people have a wonderful tradition of making peace and providing stability to all nations in it's past laws.

The muslim religion even believes in that mary was impregnated by the holy spirit and that he was a profit, now what could be more diplomatic than that and who could have been more peaceful, more diplomatic and ahead of their time than the moguls in India.

The myth is that religous laws are designed to prevent people from doing things and make them unhappy when in fact they were designed to do exactly the opposite.

I met the most happy person I have seen in ages the other day and he wasn't a synical backbiting journalist but a Born Again Christian and he made me feel that I could also be happy every day of my life, as happy as him if I preyed for my own salvation and let Jesus into my heart, now my instinct was that I truly believed him for one second and I almost cried afterwards simply becuase I wanted to be that carefree and happy and positive, it was like a feeling of a lost childhood. I knew I could never be brave enough to give up all my predudice against born again Christians and my life experience but just for that second I felt the "holy spirit", even if it was just generated by the tones in his voice and the radient, simple and honest offer of friendship, and it was at that point I knew I did need a God and a religion, though perhaps mine is my passion for teaching and all the beaurocracy that get's in the way of me helping my pupils is what I see as satan and I think everyone some sort of childish belief in something to be happy. If its the lord or allah, artistic perfection, striving for scientific truth.

A long time ago I think I was touched by God and I've never forgotten it he's the one love I've never forgotten.

What the archbishop has done is begun the debate. It's happened so many times before. Someone starts a furore by suggesting the unthinkable; the debate starts and liberals start to think it through and come round to the suggested point of view.

Then the media gets on the bandwagon and tiny step by tiny step we get to a place where people who disagree become the enemy and laws get passed. It has happened time and time again in this country. We end up with twisted thinking and perverted values which go against everything that has made this country great in the past.

We may not be phobic towards Moslems but we would do well to be phobic towards Shariah law. It is an evil we must fight against. I have been warning this would happen for years now. KEEP UP THE OUTRAGE, BRITAIN!

Dear Newsnight,

I don't care what is good or bad in Sharia law. This is not the issue...

As far as I am concerned The Archbishop of Canterbury should be expelled from office, and dis-owned from the Christian Church as a heritic. This should be done publicly by the Queen, who is head of My Church.

I also call on the BBC to stop giving a voice to proponents of radical Muslim agendas.

Thank you for your time.

Surely the Jewish community are free to use rabinical courts to settle family matters. What is the difference of muslims using sharia law for the same ends?

Shame on Jeremy Paxman for hosting an unbalanced debate and not letting people speak where they didn't accord with his personal views. Very bad and rude chairing and sloppy partisan journalism. I quite agree with commentators who say that the BBC has misrepresented Rowan Williams' comments in the most shallow, reductionist way. This has not just been on Newsnight but most BBC news bulletins through the day...

Unbelieveable....... just been watching newsnight I am a pretty rounded young and open individual and I can't believe the totally rediculasness of this particular newstory. if you really took that speach from the arch bishop as anti sharia then its about time you dropped all your pride and pompus beliefs clearly he was just trying to open the option to Great Britian that whoever you are and whatever you believe in we all have to live together so let's get on with it and have some sort of common ground. Great Britian isn't just for the British get on with it and grow up.

We live in a secular state and tolerance is one of our greatest espoused shared values (and although we struggle to live up to it, it remains an excellent value to aspire to). The Archbishop of Westminster is therefore welcome to share whatever he thinks with the rest of us - and it has inspired the most thorough debate I have heard on anything for many years.

That said, I am an Atheist and while I tolerate as best I can the views of all those who follow a religion, I can see no valid reason why ANY religion should have ANY say in our legal system. Our legal system needs to be fair to ALL of us and treat us EQUALLY, regardless of religion, race, age, gender etc etc. Why should the religious "club" one chooses to belong to mark one out for "special" teatment of any kind? The one thing we have in common is that we are all human beings and we all live here and we all need to be treated equally under the law. Anything else is divisive.

I was recently married in a Humanist ceremony, which (Like a Muslim ceremony) is not recognised by the state in England (although it is in Scotland) and therefore we had the briefest of state ceremonies in advance of our wedding. I can see no good reason why - in a secular state - some religious groups should be absolved from this necessity. My view is that we should remove any special privileges from religious groups, including marriage ceremonies. Further, we should move the debate on to dis-establishment of the Church of England. There is no good reason I can see for a small religious club to have ANY SAY WHATSOEVER in our government and legal process.
Very best wishes to all of my fellow human beings, Sue xx

Tariq Ramadan seems a very dangerous man, and perhaps he would be happier living in saudi arabia. We KNOW that if one gives Islam an INCH on this matter, they will steal a mile. Mr Ramadan clearly does not understand Islam as it functions, as opposed to it's theoreticls . Well, we do understand how it functions. Islam has spent centuries showing us EXACTLY how it works. We are not stupid or blind

Religion should never, in this day and age, be connected to any aspect of national government.

I am disgusted at the way the press has manipulated the words of one of the few Renaissance Men present in the UK.
What IS this British Culture you are all trying to preserve? Binge drinking, adultery and the pursuit of money?
You know something? If you keep telling us that we are all sleeping extremist terrorists, we might actually start believing it. THAT'S when you should start getting worried.

Sharia?

Separation of church and state

- end of

which isn't to say that our undestanding of church and of state doesn't need to evolve.

OK?

as mentioned above, I think that as the British Jewish population have had their cultural/religious courts here in the UK and have for a long time; these are not enshrined in either Scottish or English law and only deal with family issues and all legal decisions have to be confirmed via normal Scottish/English law.

If it is acceptable for the Jewish population to have their own courts, then we cannot prevent Moslems from having their cultural/religious courts too. It was suggested above that anyone who wants their own courts should leave this country (or not come to this country)...I suggest that rather than taking a stance against people who have made no claim for this court on their own part, there should be a review of ALL 'alternative' courts - informal or not - that operate in this country.

I also take issue with the suggestion that Muslims are 'leeches' in our society - perhaps the gentleman who wrote this should consider the way that the British Empire exploited natural resources and populations all over the globe to feather the British nest before he casts aspersions against people who have a legitimate right to live in the UK regardless of ethnicity, colour or religion.

I am white, female, Scottish and 'middle aged' - and clearly able to think clearly and pragmatically rather than taking a reactionary stance and totally misunderstanding the point that was being made.

This is not islamaphobia. State and religion should always be seperate. The forefarthers of the American constitution were aware of this. Religon has no place in a modern society.

very disappointed in jeremy paxman on how he one sided his views are in relation to this topic......his questions are completely distorded and only looking at the worst of shariah law......he's form me completely summed up the typical view of the media in this great country.of which is alot more intelligent that this. and as one his guest told him that parts of shariah are already in british legal system.....jeremy dont join in this neo-nazi view in your questions and let all guests at least finish what theyve got to say before asking another question

If anyone comes to this country they have to respect our laws 100%. If we went to their country and espected legal changes there would be an uproar.If they don't like the laws then go home!

People are getting accused of islamaphobia which is disgusting. We are all equal under the British legal system, and not some more equal than others. This includes MP's and the House of Lords.

The Archbishop is wise and sensible.
It's a shame the rightwing and media have whipped up this anti-islamic feelings.

He has never said that Sharia would override UK law.

Not worth trying to talk sense to this mob society.

colour is not an issue when in ROME springs to mind!

This man has no right to represent Christians in the uk.
He is out of touch, out dated and completelely dated. He should resign immediately as a man who is not in touch..We are are a secularly society and he has no right to mention these subjects...he should go back to the monastry where he belongs

How many centuries have our ancestors fought for to bring us to the civilised society we now enjoy?
In one fell swoop it could be taken away because there is no other religious group that continuously pesters for more rights (ok,they didnt in this case,it was the incredibly naive leader of the church of england)and this would truly lead to a 2 tier society.If this were to occur i shall be out of here before you can say 'cuckoo in the nest'...

I Just dont get the whole agrument. Just watching Newsnight, the professor of Islamic Studies of Oxford University, explained that muslims dont want a sharia law, they are happy being ruled under the British law. Then wats the whole disscussion for, its not being asked for, its not being wanted why debate if sharia law is good or bad etc, if its thats totally beside the point.

If you compare quality of life between democratic countries vs. those with Sharia Law and you'll find that in almost all cases the latter has the highest rates of rape, human rights abuses, murders ('honour killings') and
violence. Doesn't it say something that so many Muslim
immigrants are fleeing their homelands to live here?
To then demand Sharia law in a country in which they
are priveleged guests is deeply insulting - I doubt if
as a female atheist any Muslim country would change
its laws to suit me! It's time we stand up to this threat before it becomes a reality, our British men are starting to speak out to protect their women and daughters. Do yourselves proud, boys!

I have a feeling that this debate is pretty pointless, come on people, does anybody really believe that Sharia law would become the dominant law of the land here? I cant ever see that happenning. Also havent we already got aspects of Sharia law running already, such as justice for all, isnt that also an aspect of British law? Lets concentrate on reality rather than something that will probably never happen. Realities such as the growing Islamaphobia that I and other British Muslims feel. Why don't we deal with that as a country first? It might help if the media didnt jump on every Islamic based story available and blow it out of all proportion, such as this Sharia law story.

Has anyone considered that the AB is really making special pleading for religious ideas and religious laws above secular ideas and secular laws.
Jeremy Paxman touched on this point, but did not follow it through

The AB knows that he would be laughed out of court if he suggested the reinstatement of Christian courts and laws, so he suggests Islamic courts.

Once he has them he can say: what about our Christian courts and laws, then? It's only fair....

This is Britain! This is NOT a muslim country. This is a christian country. I have no problem with the muslim community living in Britain under British law but even the thought of bringing in shariah law makes me sick. This is an evil law that will aid terrorism and upset many many people. The archbishop should be ashamed of himself for even mentioning the idea of shariah law and should resign immediately! Shal we all just go to arabia or asia to the muslim country's and start building churches and trying to pass British law in them countries? No we shouldn't simply because we would be shot dead for even trying! So why is anyone even considering passing shriah law in this country? it makes me sick! This country is going downhill and fast

I think the ABC has only really talked about what other people think about, he is brave and rightly has ignited a good debate. I do believe that there is a lot of Islamaphobia and the ABC has in many ways always supported multiculturalism.

Will no one rid us of this troublesome priest?

Your treatment of the issue on Friday night's programme was appallingly biassed against religion. The initial package misrepresented the Archbishop's position. Douglas Murray was allowed to behave like a secular thug, given far too much air time, & claiming to know more about Islamic law than Mr Ramadan. Mr Ramadan was treated very badly - interrupted persistently every time he spoke.

I expect from Newsnight an intelligent analysis. Invariably, when you get onto religion, the programme shows precious little understanding & bullies religious spokesmen with a secularist viewpoint. It's time the BBC got itself a decent religious correspondent & performed a public duty to challenge the Islamophobia sweeping our society.

Islam is definitely a threat in this country, and not just terrorism perpetrated by extremists, but a cultural threat. Muslims's endless demands and inability to adjust to our culture is the problem and Rowan Williams has simply made this more clear. Rowan Williams the religious leader of this country? I don't think so. He is not worthy of the office he holds.

I was shocked when my daughter came home from school stating that every pupil was told that for 2 days they had to join in with Muslim festivals, and beliefs. I complained that my daughter was a Christian and did not want to take part and I was told I was Islamophobic! This is not true and I have several Muslim friends. My daughter made a choice to follow the Christian teaching a few years earlier and she has a right to practice her religion and to take part in this was wrong. The result was that she was marked absent without permission from school.

It seems to me that I am NOT allowed to be Christian in what is called a Christian country.

Which God does this Archbishop believe in?

Or for that matter does the Archbishop believe in God?

More importantly does God believe in this Archbishop?

Does God believe in Sharia law?

God knows!

I have just watched the heated debate about the Archbishops comments. I am not sure what has angered me more. The reporting of what the Archbishop has said by the BBC has been disgusting and nothing short than a gross distortion of what was actually said purely, I suspect, inorder to whip up anti-islamic feeling and generate ratings.

Worse, was watching the little fascist from the so called Centre for Social Cohesion. I am amazed that the BBC would give a platform to someone who quite clearly is racist. His points not only showed his ignorence of Islamic law, what the archbishop said but also his ignorence of the accomodations English and Scottish law has made for certain aspects of religious life.
His utter contempt for Professor Ramadan and his appalling lack of manners for the other guests was disgusting.

What the Archbishop actually said was that we should look at allowing some aspects of sharia law operating within the British legal system. Having abusive and bigoted commentators like Murray on Newsnight as tonight insulting real intellectuals who were blocked from responding to the questions was one of the worst examples of trash faux debate I've ever seen.

Taken to its ultimate end if people don't agree with the law of the land they can choose their own system of law, well anarchists don't believe in any law so under Dr William's proposals they will have the right to ignore any law and go round killing and blowing things up, after all that is their believe system.

I would just like to point out that one very important ruling in Islamic/Sharia law is that you must abide by the law of the country you live in aslong as it does not contradict Islamic law.
ie. If aspects of islamic law were accepted in this country, these laws could not go against UK law. For example, Funding based on Sharia law is offered by many high street banks, but all the terms etc have to be within British finance law.
So it is not a fact that if aspects of Sharia law were recognised in this country, they would outway British law. It is really dissapointing when polititions and racists use ignorance to frighten and control a nation.

I agree with Mr Murray.The law has accomodated the banking laws,but that is not enough they now want Sharia. Will the next 'want' be an Islamic state within Britian?.

The idea that any one culture or religion should have its laws included in British Law is obviously ludicrous. There aren't just one or two religious groups in this country - why would only Sharia Law be included? There are Hindus, Bhuddists, Scientologists and so on... how are they included? No, it must be one law for all and that law already exists.

SHARIA LAW IS ALREADY HERE!! Financial instituations already offer Sharia compliant mortgage products whereby muslims do not actually own the property yet and dont pay interest, they pay a kinda rent/managment charge instead. However, due to this they also qualify for housing benefit from the local authority to assist with the rent, so the British taxpayers purse is actually buying houses for muslims in Sharia law. There are already sharia law exemptions in place in the uk to prevent the muslim paying stamp duty twice when the property is actually transferred to them at the end of the product term.
This is the sign of things to come. We cant celebrate Christmas anymore at work it is 'festive season' instead. What is happening to our national identity?
Honestly some people need to really wake up as to what is really happening in the UK. Good Luck

The man suffers from two fundamental conceits - the first is that if you are super-intelligent you don't need to communicate with ordinary people - so if the Sun reacts against him they are right (even if they are wrong) because he clearely holds their readers in contempt - the second conceit is that because he is Archbishop of Canterbury (ie leader of a fatally divided minority faith) that he represents the Church of the Nation so he can speak for Muslims because he is the Anglican chief. He should stay - not least because he exposes all of Anglicanism's contraditions and may bring about their end - but also because he is the essence of the argument for disestablishment. Important to note I write as a progressive Christian.

I think that there has been a strong knee jerk reaction to the Archbishop's words. He was not saying that Sharia criminal law should be accepted in Britain. He was only putting forward the idea of some CIVIL law being available for those Muslims who chose to use it, such as Jewish people in Britain can chose to do, for example, concerning money or marriage. I took someone to court under Sharia law while I was living in the United Arab Emirates, although I am not a Muslim, and it was definitely in my interest. I am a middle aged Englishwoman and was treated in the police station and in the court with the utmost respect.

What a disappointing episode. No-one was made to answer questions put to them. I would have been interested in hearing the muslim's answers ro the point that in sharia law a woman's word is worth half than a man's. I resent the implication that to disagree with or question islamic law is islamophobic. I am not against any religion but i do believe that people have to abide by the law of the country in which they choose to live

This man, despite his erudition, or perhaps because of it, has made an extremely foolish move.

He lives in a world of privilege, completely removed from the reality of most people, and displays the usual academic arrogance of assumption of specialist knowledge in obscure disciplines. I find it unbelievable that he can hold a public religious office, with political authority, and not have thought through the implications of public airing of his views.

Probably best to go back to whatever cloistered environment he can be of least harm in. Sad, in the real sense of the word, as we are badly in need of enlightened leadership, from whatever quarter, rather than acts of gross insensitivity such as this.

watching the debate between Ramadan, the Bishop and Murray, and also the presenter, I can't fail to notice how Ramadan did not get a proper chance to make his point, got interupted constantly by presenter and Murray (not Bishop). The first sign of a civilised society is the ability to LISTEN to eachother's point of view, without interupting. Murray was very obviously defending himself, his cool image and not even prepared to listen. I was impressed with the Bishop who had clearly got an insight into what was going on and did not interupt or attack. I was impressed with Ramadan who was representing the Muslim people in a pretty honest way, but didn't get his message true because of the racket the others made while he was talking. A civilised society indeed!!?? More like dogs and cats, at eachother's throats...

The public reaction to this has been nothing sort of disgraceful. Once again Britain shows just how ignorant it is by refusing to actually looking at what the archbishop was saying, and instead flying off the handle. Sharia law WOULD NOT supercede British law, and would only be used in civil cases when both parties AGREED to abide by a ruling. In any debate British law would take precedence. If anything it would help by freeing up the already clogged up British courts as civil matters could be dealt with locally under sharia law where applicable.Please take the time to listen instead of letting ourselves down in the eyes of the world once again by letting our rampant intolerence be exposed.

What's "British law"?

In my country the law of Scotland applies, and archbishops are irrelevant, as they ought to be in any rational and moral society.

Church (or mosque) and state are separate. Religions are tolerated. It's not a problem - people can believe what they like. Let them get on with it.

The guy Ramadan at least sounded rational, but the others were either befuddled or belligerent in the shouting match. But sharia isn't going to happen any more than Leviticus (although there might not be too much difference between them!)

I have just listened to the debate on Newsnight. It seems, according to the Muslim academic, that there are so many interpretations of Sharia it makes it impossible to know what is 'the law'. Either there is amputation of limbs for theft or there isn't. Either there are equal rights for women or there aren't. Seems that there aren't many woman on these Sharia panels. Why on earth try to incorporate a medieval belief into laws that have evolved since the European enlightenment. If we did adopt Sharia then you may end up like Salman Rushtie or Theo Van Gogh who questioned Islam however much Muslims say otherwise!

perhaps it has been missed but the archbishop is supposed to represent the christian faith which this country follows and to show complete disregard for our faith in proposing that another faith should be given higher status in law than the law that we have to follow is and should be a sackable offence it also shows why the christian church in Britain is in decline when such stupid statements are made by it's leading light.

I cannot begin to consider the merits of acknowledging Sharia law within our legal system until the proponents of this idea can name a single Islamic Country which could allow Christian attitudes to be recognised within their legal system. As of to-day we are many times more tolerant of Muslims than any Islamic country is of Christians

During a recent conversation, I was surprised at the concern some intelligent, liberal women expressed regarding muslim attitudes to women being imported into this country. These women were not concerned so much for themselves but for their daughters.

The archbishop does not appear to be aware of the very genuine fears that some women have about islam and his call for sharia law to be accommodated is certainly the wrong way to address these concerns.

I must say that I am saddened and appalled by the violent atmosphere that that this media firestorm has created. While I do not agree at all with the archbishop's comments (it would not be prudent or just to have a two-tiered legal system), they were considered and thoughtful as are most of his intellectual explorations. A (perpetually angry) Douglas Murray seemed to think that the apocalypse had come and rode roughshod over any qualifications and caveats that the archbishop made. Moreover, viewing all sharia - however interpreted - as demoniacal and fundamentally different to Jewish law in nature seems somewhat Islamophobic. It was disgraceful, frankly. We should all be ashamed at our childishness.

I am embarrassed as a Christian and as a British man. Am I surprised of the intolerance to "comment", "opinion", "ideas"? So we are bound to be intolerant of religion. What has truly shocked me is the BBC, it's outrageous. You have spent the past 5 years accusing this government and the US governments decision to invade Iraq as the single most effective ralion call to Muslims to attck the West, well you are now as guilty. Talk about sexing up a dossier, get the facts right, peoples lives are at stake.

I have just been watching Newsnight and am quite disturbed by the behaviour and comments of Mr Murray. It is of a great concern that this gentleman should be part of an organisation that promotes Social Cohesion. A fearful and neo-conservative view point Mr Murray has demostrated, which does not aide the debate in hand.

I think the Archbishop is correct in thinking that in order for the British community to integrate and learn we must talk openly about the issues at hand. I think it rather foolish that we should assume that the Archbishop should want to institute laws that will degrade women, call for execution and torture! How the media likes to provoke a wave of ignorance by undermining a great man and his excellent achievements and vast intelligence.

WE, the British public, should all be ashamed of ourselves for creating and following a preverse train of thought, speculating and fearing on a overly dramatised, fabricated branch of the debate.

I am a white non believer, but the Archbishop has my support for believing in this country, its existing values whilst trying to promote not only his own religion but that of others. He has made a believer out of me.

Let me make this very clear. I and many others are prepared to take up arms, if necessary, to ensure that sharia law NEVER becomes part of British law. Islamophobia means fear of Islam, and any non-Muslim or Muslim apostate who understands Islam understands that fear of Islam is perfectly rational and sensible. The people who don't fear it are the people who don't understand it. I am Islamophobic, for the same reason that Winston Churchill was Islamophobic. He's the man to whom all British citizens owe their freedom. Churchill considered Islam an extreme ideology more dangerous than Nazism or communism. Look up his comments on Islam.

I felt moved to post a comment on a website for the first time in my life, having just watched with horror the discussion 'chaired' by Jeremy Paxman. Here was an opportunity for a reasoned and worthwhile discussion of a very serious issue, ruined. Shame on you Jeremy - I credited you with more intelligence; shame on Newsnight - your audience deserve better than this; shame on the BBC - you are playing with fire in a most irresponsible way. How depressing.

NO religion should be involved in law-making/enforcing: the legal system should itself be neutral on matters of religion, colour, class etc., even though its participants will have these differences.

I think Williams is playing a dangerous game, he wants to promote the idea that religion should somehow be more involved with law-making again: even if this is not his intention, the fact is that sharia promotes some disgraceful attitudes on women, gay people and various other issues.

Religious courts belong in the middle ages, and should be kept there.

islamphopia is spreading like a speed train in this country thanks to the mass media.
the fact that it is not Muslims campaigning for Shariah in Britain that is a cause of tension. It is the policies of western governments to deny people's desire to live by Shariah in the Muslim world(AFGANISTAN, SOMALIA, CHECHNYA). i am a British Muslim and i am not advocating to change the British legal system to any system

REMEMBER:it was the Shariah that allowed Muslim, Jew and Christian to live side by side for centuries in relative harmony;

From Jeremy Paxman's introduction I thought we would have a reasoned and thoughtful discussion of the Archbishop's comments but it didn't take too long for him to lapse into the combative mode with the one Muslim contributor.

First he interrupted him immediately, then allowed Murray to interrupt him continually.

Mr. Murray spoke in an aggressive manner to Mr. Ramadan and Paxman took up the tone decisively - as revealed when he prefaced a question with 'Even you...'.

Then every time Mr. Ramadan started to answer, Paxman interrupted immediately with a repeat of the question or another question simply because he was trying to explain.

All other contributors were allowed to make their points - why did you not want the Muslim contributor to be given the same opportunity?

It really isn't good enough.

Betty Hunter

The Arch Bishop has taken the position that he holds and abused it. He takes religious leadership and abuses it by ignoring conserative christian beliefs in favour of a liberal and political agenda. The Anglican church leader no longer supports my beliefs. It is time for him to retire. I do not need the Anglican church to follow my faith. I am considering my position.

Rowan Wiliams has initiated a debate which of course is highly sensitive, touchy and for those who do not understand the principles of Sharia Law incites fear, but this is also timely and necessary in our multcultural society.
Surely the media are not too naive as to aggrevate Islamaphobia and thereby prevent a intelligent debate from taking place.
I thank Rowan Williams for his intelligent thought.
Please dont be disheartened!

will all these so called intellects please note the comments of the "NORMAL" people that we don't like all this crap being spoken about islam and islam law,go to the public and uk/british work places and see the re-action,and you will see we don't want you if, you want your laws go and live in these places where it is respected and used,you want to live in the uk then abide by our rules and laws,we have to in yours,i must say at this point i feel my own country of which i am proud is making me a racist,we and my kind will never bow down to islam,we don't want you here at all,if i lived in your birthplace i would have to abide by your rules,grow up and respect our rules and laws,if you don't like it GO HOME.

A very good example to highlight the danger of religious interference in the law. What is wrong with one law for all? Why do ethnic minorities, albeit welcome in this country, believe that they can have undue influence over the vast majority of citizens. Unfortunately, if there was a different message intended by the Archbishop it has been missed. The Islamic extremists will love the perception of the words and will use it against us. That is what extremists do! The devout muslim will be all fired up and those who perceive that religion in a negative light will counter equally forcefully. The ordinary citizen of the UK may be disinterested, amused or annoyed at the Archbishop for not thinking through the way he loosed his message (whatever the intention). The result was inevitable. For all those terrorists or misguided idiots who wish to use this to further their cause (and there are those who DO want to spread Islam across the globe no matter the cost) I have a message:

You have NO chance!

Outraged. We've fought for our rights and liberation. British Gay Muslims need our support and protection from homophobic shariah law.

I am disappointed that tonight's Newsnight dodged the question. While getting a few people with opposing views to argue the toss might make good TV, the debate was of low quality.

Why is the nation up in arms?

Newsnight chose to present the debate with theological scholars and clergy - but this is a reaction against such types - so one half the argument was unrepresented.

I believe the majority consider the Enlightenment to be incomplete, and in peril of reversal. Clergy no longer represent us - what were they doing on the show? Islamic scholars are equally pointless - who gives a fig for their opinion (apart from the BBC)?

The big question tonight was 'WHY the kerfuffle?', the BBC had a chance to answer it, but shied away because of its own religious agenda. Shame.

We've clearly still got a long way to go before we get separation of church and state in this country.

Now I admit I am not a religious person, I don't agree with organised religion full stop. However I will defend the Archbishops comments. What is the problem of someone starting an educated debate on a controversial subject? The press create the hype, politicians do what they do best.... make uneducated, unresearched comments in order to remain popular rather than tackle the real issues of multicultural society and finally the public read the nonsense in the press and suddenly get riled up over edited and misinterpreted comments made by the Archbishop, who is of a religion in which itself does not adequately meet the demands of modern society.

When will the madness end and when will we start having educated discussion over the issues that matter?

perhaps the archbishop should look closer to the inevitability of the disestablishment of the church of england and start from there. we vote and petition for laws and changes in the law and everything can be discussed and debated vigorously. sharia law cannot be debated vigoroursly as this would be seen as insulting to islam and therefore it should not become part of our laws. surely the best would be to say that the state have no set religion but ought to be aware and sensitive to the religious views of its citizens be those views atheist, agnostic, muslim, christian or whatever; that way the 'church' and state can keep a respectful distance from each other. to this end the sooner the church of england is disestablished and unelected religious heads removed from any part of our houses of parliament the better.

If you see the 'Archbishop of Canterbury', tell him that we are still a CHRISTIAN country, and he SUPPOSED to be a Christian. The LORD is returning soon to judge the quick and the dead, leaders being judged first and more stringently ON the word of God.

So, stop reading your Koran and get familiar with your OWN book Rowan.

Tell your bumbling clerics too.

I listensd carefully to Rowan Williams original speach and was very impressed with its content, most of it was plain common sense. Then the BBC & Evening Standard et al edited it till it was unreoognisable then the smarmy shit stiring David Dimbleby put his odious slant on it till it bore no resembalance to to the speech I had listened to. Humbug.
The average Brit is so beguiled by Soaps etc. they cant digest such educated oration.

I can't believe how much everyone is jumping on the media bandwagon, the Archbishop hasn’t said that he agrees with introducing beatings, or to make it so that women had less value within the law than men do. all he has said that our law should try to take into account some Sharia law, like we already do with Jewish law.
Don't get me wrong, i think if people live in Britain they should live by the British law but the British law should respect different religions to a certain extent.
This debate has been taken completely out of context, and that’s what it is just a debate, its not a proposal from Government to change the law.

It has taken hundreds of years for the british people to throw the yolk of religion of our backs.
It seems a backward step to allow any religion to have the same power over sections of our society in the twenty first century.

There is no room for islamic law within a British system, giving an inch will lead to more demands upon Britian, if you live in Britain, you obey the laws.

If Shariah Law is adopted into the system will this not leave other religious systems of judicary demanding the same thing!

Everyone is equal under British Law, and there should be no other system within our nation.

This is entirely against the opinion of the British people are for a leading figure to even suggest such an idea is to suggest to people, "it is ok for this to happen.", it is not ok, I think many people such as me are willing to stand up for this view and make sure that Shariah Law takes no part in the British system/ In addition I believe that this gives Muslim Radicals an indication that it is ok to demand such a thing!

The Archbishops words, far from making it more likely for religion to be accepted by many British people, is stirring up a Phobia of Religion and its effects on people, to name the worst one a believe you are fighting for god, this is to commit the greatest atrocities, this has happened on innumeral occasions in history. such as the Crusades, and is still happening today.

I think this country has always been very tolerant, but enough is enough there is only one law and that is that. Have lived in many muslum country's they live by there law and i respect that, so they should only have our law and respect us.

If they really think strongly about this law they can and have the right to live in a country were this law is. Its as simple as that live with our law or leave.

The debate was certainly not helped by Paxman's shabby handling of interviews tonight. His pandering to the right-winger with little knowledge and few coherent arguments, while shouting down both the moderate and learned Islamic scholar and the Bishop of Hulme, were bewildering to any impartial viewer used to earlier standards on this programme.

This is a bad time for tabloid standards to creep into the BBC. If you can't handle a subject like this seriously, you would do the country a favour by avoiding it, or by retiring Jeremy Paxman to harmless occupations like chairing University Challenge.

I am disappointed that tonight's Newsnight dodged the question. While getting a few people with opposing views to argue the toss might make good TV, the debate was of low quality.

Why is the nation up in arms?

Newsnight chose to present the debate with theological scholars and clergy - on a story about the reaction against such types - so one half the argument (and 95% the UK) was unrepresented.

I believe the majority consider the Enlightenment to be incomplete, and in peril of reversal. Clergy no longer represent us - what were they doing on the show? Islamic scholars are equally pointless - who gives a fig for their opinion (apart from the BBC)?

The big question tonight was 'WHY the kerfuffle?', the BBC had a chance to answer it, but shied away because of its own religious agenda. Shame.

We've clearly still got a long way to go before we get separation of church and establishment in this country.

Luke 13 refers to the herb mustard becoming an unatural tree. This has been demonstrated by the Archbishop, has happened to the church.of Christondom (not the Christian church)
As a committed Christian I plea for a secular state. Clear the Bishops from the Lord's.
Let individuals vote according to the convictions held without the exploitation of Zealots of any faith, who it seems negate the values of the faith they claim. Be it Islamic or right wing southern American version of Christyanity.
A Secular state and one law for all

God forbid that the Archbishop ever returns to his homeland (Wales) with these horrendous ideas.I sincerely hope that he's very contented to stay in England - you're welcome to him!!!

What happens if a Muslim wishes to convert to,say,Christianitity.This is
punishable by death in Shariah.What happens then?Will the "Muslim Authorities" hand him/her over upon request of the State?The whole thing is a joke.What with Arabic broadcasts
across Oxford,and the State dishing out extra benefits to Muslims for no reason other than that they are bigamous,the rest of us will have to find another "green and pleasant land".

"Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest."
Prophetic words spoken by Henry II in 1170.
Thomas Becket's crime was to defend Christian values. Our present archbishop's crime was to devalue them.
What's next four armoured knights entering Lambeth Palace.

Christianity is being pushed out of our schools and replaced by Islam. Over the last decade through complaints from Muslims, Christianity is not taught to our children. We are told that it is a multi faith society but if we examine it closely we will find that Islam is replacing the teaching in the school.

If I was in a muslim country I would be sentaced to death if I speak against Islam. Think of the teacher in Sudan!

This year my daughters school no longer has Christian celebrations like Christmas Carol Service or Easter because there were complaints from muslims. Instead we now have a concert!

Maybe it is time, rather than just being a Christian country by name we should practice what we believe. Return the teaching to our schools, after all the children used to have respect for others when Christianity was taught in our schools.

I've just been watching the item on Newsnight. Mr Murray is an appalling young man - rude, arrogant, ill-mannered, and behaving as though he were in an undergraduate debating society. Jeremy Paxman totally failed to be an adequate chair, allowing Mr Murray to speak over, interrupt and drown out Prof Ramadan. Prof Ramadan was quite right to attempt to point this out, and Jeremy Paxman was quite wrong to get irritated with him for trying to do so. This whole issue requires calm and thoughtful discussion - the all-too-easy media position of bringing people together for an adversarial studio fight adds nothing to the substance of the discussion and merely fans the flames. It's only what I expect, alas, of Newsnight, but I hope that somewhere in the BBC there is someone preparing a more grown-up discussion.

Just curious, but who vets these posts?

I think this country has always been very tolerant, but enough is enough there is only one law and that is that. Have lived in many muslum country's they live by there law and i respect that, so they should only have our law and respect us.

If they really think strongly about this law they can and have the right to live in a country were this law is. Its as simple as that live with our law or leave.

For the first time in my 57 years I feel moved to respond to something in the media.I'm so sad that Jeremy Paxman's chairing of the 'debate' tonight put another nail in the coffin of reason. I felt he was utterly disrespectful to the muslim speaker and to the bishop. It seemed that he and the guy from (community??) cohesion were not at all interested in the view that the media might have misrepresented what the archbishop had said, and JP descended to that infuriating ploy of 'answer the (quite shallow) question. A lost opportunity to find out more. An on screen harangue and cut-off speakers does not constitute a debate. Shame on you.

I don't think that reaction to the Archbishop's comments has been Islamophobic - rather it has been characterised by a weariness of just one thing after another that go in the face of the "British way of life".

To consider this Islamophobic is to take the view that any disagreement with a p.o.v. that promotes Islam is Islamophobic as if to hold a contrary view is wrong in itself.

Its all been blown out of proportion once again by TV, press etc. They do love to cause trouble from nothing. Anyway how many people had heard of or know anything about Sharia Law, mostly only what has been written in the press and shown on TV since the speech, and remember he said only parts should be thought about, not put into action. After watching Newsnight tonight I was appalled at how Paxman differenciated between the people he interviewd, you can tell who he thought was 'right'. The way he cut Mr. Ramadan off was disgraceful, yet he let that Mr. Murray prattle on with what he wanted to say. Whatever happened to impartiality of the press. No wonder the country is in the mess it's in. Its people like these who caused the 'senation' in the first place, by showing only selected pieces of what was said. I am not that keen on the Archbishop and things he says, but this situation was caused by people in the money making, gutter press media.

Who was that representative from the Department of Social Cohesion who has just appeared on Newsnight on Friday night? He made a mockery of the debate by being so arrogant and quite frankly, childish in his blinkered approach to it all. Where was the cohesion in that???!!

I don't doubt that his views would have a role to play IF anybody should suggest that Sharia law should be introduced as a replacement of English law for Muslims, but so far such a thing has not been suggested.

Newsnight, I think you should vet your guests a little harder before allowing them into such an important discussion.

I think Jeremy Paxman was completely biased against the Muslim interviewee this evening,constantly interrupting him, not letting him speak and badgering him to try to make him come up with simplistic sound-bite statements that satisfied Mr. Paxman's views of what Muslims do and think. On the other hand, he let the man in the studio rant for ages, repeating the same thing over and over. I am not a Muslim and do not support the argument for Sharia law but it was clear to me that Mr. Paxman was behaving in the reactionary way that the tabloid press employ - making complex issues so simplistic that they become meaningless.
He just wanted an argument, but unfortunately for him, there wasn't one to have, despite his best efforts to conjure one up. The Muslim academic was simply stating that the majority of Muslims in this country are happy with British law and have not asked for Sharia law.

I'm sorry but I really am struggling to understand why this debate has even come to pass amoung the intellectuals of our nation. Its seems as though as soon as the word "Shariah" was first mentioned everyone seems to have gone a little crazy, this was not the point that the archbishop was trying to raise, his actual intent seems to have been lost thanks to the media and people arguing without knowing all of the facts.

I have just sat down and watched newsnight and BBC2 and could not help but feel that the two religious leaders being interviewed were given no respect and I dont think ever got though a sentence without being interupted.

Now I am a Christian, I'm not Catholic and actually do disagree with some aspects of the Catholic Church, but I still respect them. I beg anyone else thats posting a comment to PLEASE think carefully about what they are about to say, give all parties all due respect and actually find out what you are talking about before you say anything. You will have noticed I have given no personal insight into this debate, this is because, and I stress, this debate should have never started in the first place and only exists because a few trigger happy people have not listened and thought about what was said. Instead they jumped to thier own misinformed conclusions.

yes, it is desirable for all parties for muslims to further integrate within British society, however this is a christian country where all laws apply to everyone equally, no matter their religion, sex, or class, where forgiveness and circumstance is given adequate appreciation. There is no place for a dual system in law which would only serve to create a different classes and treatments for people who are, or should be, all equal.

The Archbishops comments are totally disgraceful, British law is envied around the world for giving every person equal status irrelevent of religion or colour. The archbishop should resign. If a preson wants to be tried under sharia law then I suggest they go and live and work in a country that practises it. There must be one rule of law for everyone regardless of religion or colour if this changes social chaos will quickly follow and the very fabric of this country will crumble.

Having read most of the posts on here I thought I would come up with a new idea. Maybe because Sharia law is already being practised in some parts of the UK covertly, the archbishop has brought this to the media's attention in a round about way so as to highlight what goes on behind closed doors. As a result, it inflames the British public who in turn with massive outcry stop Sharia law gaining any further momentum so it doesn't become part of our society by quietly slipping through our systems gaining government approval like so many back door policies our government is fond of foistering upon us whilst we are unawares.

Why is so difficult to have a grown up discussion in English life. Rather than a sensible discussion about a scholarly and important essay we get the numbskulls brought on centre stage to froth at the mouth and denounce all the things that were never said in the first place. So when Sharia is carefully described in the essay and he clearly stated that he was not advocating a parallel legal system or the inclusion of any parts of sharia law that were incompatible with UK law, how was this visually represented in the news (even just now on Newsnight) - footage of corporal punishment, handless beggars and the shooting of offenders. Mark Easton on the 10 O'Clock news tonight was literally frothing at the mouth at the end of his piece to camera (and by literally I do actually mean literally). And who was that pumped-up thug from the Centre for Social Cohesion? Was he really a muslim terrorist in disguise trying to recruit secularists to the muslim faith?

Why when the essay has been published in full does every media refuse to engage at the intellectual level that the essay demands and instead start baying for blood in the most ignorant way?

Why, also, did Jeremy Paxman think that it was enough for him simply to comment that he did not understand what the essay contained?

The one beam of sunshine in this whole sorry media scrum has been the intelligence and courage of the Bishop of Huhme.

Murray or whatever his name was on Newsnight this evening has much in common with the person who posted this facile gibberish on this board:

"We may not be phobic towards Moslems but we would do well to be phobic towards Shariah law. It is an evil we must fight against. I have been warning this would happen for years now. KEEP UP THE OUTRAGE, BRITAIN!"

what is shariah law? neither murray nor you have any clearly defined idea. certainly no idea based on any genuine understanding.

this kind of knee jerk, thinly veiled racist generalisation about 'shariah law' and the 'evil' it represents is disgusting and in fact is so childish that it would be comical if it wasn't tragically dangerous and inflammatory, tapping into, as it does, a nasty, dark , vicious side of so called modern 'britishness' - brutishness more like. Its rooted in a vacuous , dull headed prejudice which has a direct parallel in 1930's German anti semitism. They squealed that they were not racists or -phobes of one kind or another too. They too, like Murray and Ann Burgess and others , were simply looking for somewhere to park their own deep feelings of anxiety and inadequacy and frustration with the way of the world.

Britain must have one single law for every one in the country and in this case it is definitely British law. British law however could be influenced by other laws around the world, be it american, asian or sharia law. But, what British law adopt or dicard must be a mere choice by the existing british legislative body.This issue should have never been debatable whatsoever.Britain is the most secular country and that is what it should be. any religious mind would be naturally phobic to other religion in a certain situation especially where there is so much unrest associated with religion.

Its taken long enough to separate church and state. state law is there to serve the interests of all its citizens, and must be protected from those who would pervert its course and promote their own interests.
I believe the archbishop to be a man of intellect and integrity but whatever he intended to convey is now lost in the furious debate, which is a pity.
As an athiest im always intrigued to know how and why intellegent and rational people come to their faith and how deeply they understand it, im not slagging, id love to have the comfort of it.

Good to hear straight talking from Douglas Murray in contrast to Bishop Stephen Lowe and his attempts to defend the Archbishop !

I was disgusted by Mr Murray's comments and behaviour, he was rude and offensive particularly to the Muslem Professor. Both the professor and Bishop Hulme were trying to present a calm and accurate account of what the Arch Bishop had actually said and intended - Mr Murray was outrageous, clearly islamaphobic, it terrifies me that we have such people claiming to work for social cohesion. His tirade tonight has undone decades of good work to make us a multicultural country valuing and practising tolerance and respect for all our cultures. As a recently retired Headteacher of a multicultural secondary school I fear for the disharmony that his aggressive and offensive responses will cause. I am really disappointed that Mr Paxman did not chair the discussion more fairly.

Why are so many Moslems in this country?
Are they asylum seekers from countries where they have suffered persecution, if so , they chose our country because of its better social and legal conditions than the social persecution of Moslem countries which operate under Shariah law.
That being the case I would expect them to seek a change in Shariah law not expect everyone else to accept it.
Anyone who wants to live under Shariah has plenty of countries to move to.
I was very uneasy by the Moslem speaker who sought to defend Shariah law, an educated man but a narrow blinkered view of the 21st Century society.

If the Jewish community are allowed their own courts/dispute settlement procedures I don't see what the issue with the Islamic community having a similar thing.

I think people should really read the speech in its entirety before forming any judgement.

What disturbs me is that many people on this blog,MPS & most elements of the media are passing and denounce him without reading what actually said.
It is very worrying that the very mention of anything to do with Islam,muslims ,etc, is jumped on and no one hears the real message becuase they are to busy shouting their opposition to it.
Everyone should make their own mind up after reading the facts, not been lazy reading or listening to the headlines .

I'm shocked that the Archbishop said what he did, although I'm not shocked about the response from the public, which I fee is warrented. I feel that the whole thing again points to the vast deficit of equality and progression that exists in Islam. Unlike the other major religions of the world, Islam has not undergone a reformation in order to bring it out of the intense rigidity that it exists within. It is an extremely inflexible, uncompromising, intolerant faith and contains within it things like sharia which people in the UK should be alarmed by if even it is suggested that it could be introduced here. It clearly is the thin edge of a wedge and we really need to make a stand!

go Sue {{{XXX}}}

Islamophobia, a made up term to silence dissenters of islam.

a phobia is classified as an irrational fear, i think most people know exactly what they don't like about islam and its medieval sharia.

the muslim spokesman on tonights newsnight was a classic example of shouting down the opposing view and casting muslims as the poor hard done to victims of global "islamophobia".

The Archishop of Canterbury, by his hiding in his Palace in Lambeth, is demonstrating some of the same qualities of cowardism as the 9/11 and July bombers. I sincerely hope that his reason for not answering the mountain of criticism is that he is on his knees praying to God for forgiveness. His comments clearly demonstrate that he did not take the time to consider what he was going to say and that he did not pray for God's guidance and support before uttering these nonsensical and offensive remarks.

If I were a relative or friend of someone killed either in the atrocity of 9/11 or the July bombings in London, I would feel that my loved one had died in vain and would be grossly offended by his remarks.

The only good thing to emerge from this incident is that it has sparked a debate amongst the citizens of this country not only about the whole question of integration and tolerance but also, I hope, about the question of disestablishment of the Church of England.

I hope that vicars all over the country will take the opportunity on Sunday to denounce Dr Williams'remarks because it will be on their shoulders that responsibility for the repair of this damage will fall.

For months there has been a debate in Britain about aspects of Sharia law. It seems to me that this law does not fit in with the present law in Britain which has been fashioned and refined over many centuries. But always based on Christian principles. Islamic culture does not fit in to British culture. Most Moslems living in Britain are very content to live under British law.
I believe that Islam is a powerfully 'evangelical' religion and that some powerful Islamic leaders here would be working towards a gradual imposition of Islamic culture (including the law) into British society. So, Rowan Williams' talk to the lawyers was naively given. As an academic he did not expect a public outcry. But as a Christian (and a Anglican) I wish to be led by an Archbishop as a pastor and Christian leader. He should not resign (this time) but must consult with his advisers before uttering any more public pronouncements. I,and many more Christians, can only pray for him.

For those who think that Shariah would not have an impact in this country even if introduced on a limited scale think again. The Pact of Umar is still operational should there be an adoption of Shariah Law again, or a dominance by Islam. Just read that to get a true picture.

Only a man who is quite out of touch with what it means to be a woman could possibly suggest anything romotely encouraging a sympathetic view towards shariah law. There is a reality for many women in middle eastern countries which is not a mere academic debating point but a stark and sometimes horrible reality. I simply do not understand why the archbishop should feel the necessity to make any concessions to such a system and can only assume that he does not understand, that he does not know what he is talking about. I am not a practicing chirsitan but feel totally betrayed as a british woman by his comments. no - we do not want to accomommodate such ghastly laws her.

Do you really think Christian law would be accepted in muslim countries, No! (we are technically a Protestant Country although I do not personnally believe, this is still a truth)

Our law provides a fair system which accounts for EVERYONE, why is there any need to even suggest that this needs to be changed?

Only a man who is quite out of touch with what it means to be a woman could possibly suggest anything romotely encouraging a sympathetic view towards shariah law. There is a reality for many women in middle eastern countries which is not a mere academic debating point but a stark and sometimes horrible reality. I simply do not understand why the archbishop should feel the necessity to make any concessions to such a system and can only assume that he does not understand, that he does not know what he is talking about. I am not a practicing chirsitan but feel totally betrayed as a british woman by his comments. no - we do not want to accomommodate such ghastly laws her.

Re:Rowan Williams.
If this man is so out of touch with the feelings of British society what is he doing as Archbishop of Canterbury? He should resign immediately.

The BBC debate on the subject of Islam is like listening to Fox News (the right wing no-brain channel) in the US. I am ashamed to be English.

I often tell Americans how educated the British (wo)man-in-the-street is, and how we think about issues. I am clearly out of date when I brag that Britain thinks.

I visit London expecting a respite from the uninformed Islamophobic knee-jerk garbage I hear on American TV, not a repeat performance.

I am sure that the archbishop was thinking at a rather loftier level than is common at the water-cooler or pub, when he ruminated on equality, inclusivity and social justice, but this is a nation which understands concepts like prejudice.

We can separate a monolithic concept (all Muslims are barbarians who chop off hands and suppress women) from complexity (there are an almost infinite variety of Muslims, and of Islamic laws (given the nature of Islamic structure) and only the fruit-cakes are interested in stoning people for stupid crimes, and we’ll get further with talking than with yelling.

It is clear that the Archbishop disapproves of stoning and hand-choppings, and was thinking mainly along the lines of alignment of cultural regulations in family law, much the way Jewish family law is acknowledged in various societies.

Please stop sounding like a nation spawned by George W Bush. You guys are freaking me out here!

Glynis

I read fully the Archbishop's speech to the law society and I was astounded, to put it mildly, that the head of my Church should have propounded such ideas on the integration of Sharia law into our Christian society. I have now just watched the programme on the controversy and I am fully on the side of Mr Murray. It is a pity that there was not a cleric on his side of the debate. I have some knowledge of the operation of Sharia Law as I have had three missions to Saudi Arabia and have seen the results. On one occasion passing through Riyadh Airport I saw customs officials take away a British womans bible from her case and publicly tear it up in front of her. At no time were we allowed to hold christian services on a Sunday, except covertly in a colleagues bungalow behind closed curtains. If such action was suspected of happening the Matawa (Religious Police) would raid the house and smash it up. There is absolutely no question of multi-culturalism in that country.

The debate over Sharia law should be seen as a positive thing. It seems to have provoked the people of the UK into realising that we are losing our identity, and that we the have to do something about it. The melting pot ideals of the liberals have failed us and have created groups of people who do not try or want to integrate into UK society.
I would like to feel proud to be British again . But I'm not quite sure what it means any more!!!

The Archbishop evidently believes that Sharia law is a pick and mix option, a little like the Curate's egg, good in parts.

He is totally naive and I believe that his position as the leader of the C of E is now totally untenable.

The basic objection to the Archbisop's remarks is that his proposal is not acceptable within the Britiah democratic system. Magna Carta required that ALL British citizens be equal within the laws created and approved by a Parliament which was elected by the British people. It is just not permissable or acceptable that a bunch of clerics in a foreign religion can create different laws for some British citizens and enforce those laws outside the Briitish legal syatem. Why should we change OUR system to accommodate the peculiar beliefs of foreign immigrants.

Having lived in Islamic countries for
in excess of 30 years, I see the facts to be evaluated as -
In Saudi Arabia, it would not be tolerated to gain any judgement in
other than Islamic law.
In Libya, I have witnessed visiting Catholic clergy being harassed as they endevoured to conduct a Christmas time service. In Tripoli,
no other place for worship exists outside of Islamic law. The main
mosque in Tripoli was once Catholic,
the latin inscriptions are still visible in door lintols. Treat like with like, those that ask for islamic
justice should be deported to where
such is metered out & not the UK.

For those who think that Shariah would not have an impact in this country even if introduced on a limited scale think again. The Pact of Umar is still operational should there be an adoption of Shariah Law again, or a dominance by Islam. Just read that to get a true picture.

Why oh why are we discussing a system that clearly is biased towards one group in society, muslim men. This over compensation to accomodate the muslim community by people so hung up on being PC that they forget what what right and wrong is, amazes me. Remember the nicities and considerations afforded to muslims in this country are not offered in return in muslim countries. They also play into the hands of the radical right wing extremists, by adding credence to a bad system. Personally any acceptance of Sharia law in this country would see me leave. British law is not perfect, but it is more perfect than the alternative!!

Yes, in so far as the facts of what the Archbishop actually said have been distorted or outrightly ignored, the reason for which is a very serious cause for concern. To witness a moderate Muslim scholar being shouted down by one reactive and volatile guest and bullied by Mr Paxman does not hold much hope for civil society.

That the debate around these comments has been deliberately made more controversial by the BBC is beyond question. Having, as a teacher of religious studies, a vested interest in the sensible debate around multiculturalism, I could scarce believe what the BBC chose to report.
3 examples:
1. The coverage on The Ten O'Clock News, which chose footage of scourging in West Africa as an appropriate clip to communicate the facts of this story to the public.
2, Nicky Campbell on 5live breakfast choosing to ask his guest not about the topic, but about Saudi crime rates.
3. 5live drive headlines update consistently claiming that the story was that Williams was "calling for Shari'a to be included".

There are simple factual errors in all of these reports and it is plain that there is something seriously amiss with the reporting. I can imagine one of three explanations:
1. Lazy journalism - yesterday, reporters didn't bother to read the lecture and thus did not report on the actual comments of the archbishop.
2. Mischievious journalism: on a low news day, a considered effort to whip up a controversy where there is none, by law, or in actual public debate (oft cited example of the Beth Din proves this)
3. Another agenda - a deliberate attempt to further drive the wedge between an invented sense of secular Britishness and the gradually less popular multicultural reality. This would truly be Islamophobia.

That individuals may choose a range of collective or individual moral views is in fact a fundamental tenet of the liberal democracy we hold dear, and the fact that we are able to include these whilst maintaining justice and order create the tolerant society of which we should be proud. Our politicians and journalists, so keen to jump on bandwagons and victimise for their own gain have all too obviously forsaken their ideological roots. If I do not have the right to challenge an immoral or unjust law, then I do not live in a democracy, yet all of a sudden the suggestion of alternative morality to that which is held by statute ( a lowest common denominator) is equivalent to treason.

Muslims have a duty, one and all, to promote the Islamicisation of the planet. A minority use, and are using, violence to fulfill this duty , the majority strive to this end in other ways.
Why for example are Muslim women not allowed to marry outside the religion whilst Muslim men are, this is because the woman takes on her husbands religion and the children will therefore be Muslim, they tolerate the woman because they know they will harvest her children. Thereby using non Muslims to produce Muslims,perfect. They would prefer to kill the Muslim woman than allow her to give birth to non-Islamic children.
Once the principle of the practice of any degree of Sharia with equal standing to British law in this country is accepted, the dam is breached, and all that remains is its exploitation and expansion.
We would be mad to allow this Pandoras box to be opened.

Time to disestablish the C of E

I've been waiting for the status of the C of E within the British Establishment to come up, but it hasn't. The furore is because the Archbishop has a constitutional position as Head of the Established Religion which is long past its usefulness.

If we took the sensible step of making his church part of the multiplicity of religions and atheism in Britain instead of being the State Religion and the religion of the Monarchy, all of the clergy would be free to express their opinions. Instead, his thoughts have led to a constitutional crisis, due to his status, not an outbreak of Islamophobia.

The Church in Wales, where Williams came from, is just another of the accepted religions which are free to organise themselves in Britian. There is freedom of belief in this country and that freedom is incompatible with a State Religion.

The manner in which this question is posed is offensive and undermines any possibility of a rational debate. This illustrates the way in which, in such issues as this, the media seems to work against both sides of the debate, and against any possibility of any rational debate, purely in order to exploit the interest this comment has provoked in order to increase viewer ratings.

The question, as posed, refers to two eventualities, neither of which is of ANY relevance in relation to Dr. Williams' comment! No there is no threat to "our" society, and NO it is not "Islamophobia"!

I've just watched today's (Friday's) Newsnight, and I was dissapointed, as so often, that the debate is focused on whether or not the Archbishop ought to have said what he said, and on personal criticism of him himself! The debate as to whether we should have sharia in this country was hardly touched upon in any detail! Why?

I tuned in today in the genuine hope of finding out what precisely the Archbishop is proposing and what the arguments are against that. Having heard the debate Yesterday on P.M on Radio 4 my initial reaction was strongly against his proposals. But I unreservedly welcome the fact that he said what he said and had the courage to raise this issue. To "lampoon" him for merely having the audacity to say what he said, on the part of some elements of , so called, British society, is, to me offensive.

Good for him for raising the issue - and I think he was wrong.

But one thing is clear. Since this story broke we have been denied the opportunity to properly understand and debate what the Archbishop was saying by a media which needs to drum up contoversy at any cost in order to secure ratings.

I would have thought it was absurd to any one in this country that we have a separate law for a separate section of society! Laughable! It goes against 300 years of history! But I can be sure that there must be more to Dr. Williams proposal than that. I am sure that he proposed it in good faith with honest intentions. (Contrary to what the Sun (BNP) is implying, it is not likely that the the Archbishop of Canterbury would support the wholesale creation of an Islamic Republic in the U.K!) I would be interested to what his genuine point was. But that has been totally obscured by childish, factional behaviour by the kind of people we had on Newsnight tonigh, not least Paxman who delivers these cynical, unperceptive questions.

Like the rest of the silent majority in the UK I am astonished at the comments made by the Archbishop.
Everyone in this Country should be subject to the same law-without exception.
It is inexcuseable to allow Muslims to impose their narrow vision on our society. As a gay man-professional and partnered I abhor the intolerance which their religion promotes.There are of course many muslims who live in the Uk and wish to truly integrate and this I respect.
We must not however pander to any narrow religous philosphy of whatever persuasion-thankfully European society has moved on.
The Archbishop should ideally resign or as a minimum explain his naive and misguided speech.

I spent almost 10 years working and living in Saudi Arabia, and witnessed a tremendously high level of crime from all types at all levels. Corruption was endemic in so many areas of life. Theft, such as daily shoplifting was very common. Young Saudis ( and older ones ) regularly broke all traffic laws. I was bribed ( attempted ) so many times by Saudi trainess, to pass ( and even , FAIL ) in course tests.
Drugs and alcohol consumtion was fairly common in so many Saudi households. Wife abuse and abuse of house staff was a notoriously regular way of life in many homes of the "locals". Cheating at every level was "par for the culture.
Severe and dreadful racial actions are part of the social fabric, and a form of slavery exists in virtually every area of this muslim state.
Many major crimes are ignored or "hidden", as this may make the Saudi locals " lose face " if the truth were ever to be made public.
Women in general, have few rights.
This is a most lawless nation that thrives, despite islamic laws.

I have never been comfortable with Muslims in my country. Their culture and sharia law are completely alien to us. They have no true intention of integrating; their aim is to colonise and remarks such as those by the Archbishop of Canterbury only help to furher this agenda. I wish these people no harm but I wish them elsewhere but in my land.

I think Archbishop may be articulate in presenting ideas but in this issue he lacks wisdom. At the time of home grown islamic terrorists stretching our resources, to call for some aspects of islamic laws to be introduced is terribly wrong. Where islamic laws is dictated we have not seen progress in that societies, we read of more cries and injustice for women. In the coutries where islamic laws are implemented, they pour their money in terrorism and teaching of their religion rather than investing in science and development. How many noble price Islamic countries have won over the years? When you start introducing aspects of it, there will be demand for more, history tells us that. The British laws treat all as equalunder the laws, is far better system. Do not mess with it and introduce something you will not be able to control.

The Archbishop should really do what he is paid for - to promote Christianity. This means firstly, he should seek to expand his flock,secondly, stop their decreasing numbers and thirdly, if he really believes that our laws should be changed to incorporate Sharia law, he probably needs a long vacation !

I'm really sorry that the debate on the Newsnight program developed into an emotive rant about Sharia. The only point worth making is that we should all be equal under the law. One law for everybody. If there are good bits of any legal sytem that will help provide justice and cohesion and have been approved by our well established democratic processes the we can incorporate them into British law for all of us. Anything else confuses me and, I suspect, most other people.

I have just watched the Newsnight debate involving Douglas Murray, the Director of the so-called "Centre for Social Cohesion", a right-leaning think tank. If Mr Murray's disgracefully inflammatory performance is anything to go by, it should be renamed the "Centre for Social Division".

Readers may be interested to know that Mr Murray's most recent book is "Neoconservatism: Why We Need It" (SAU, UK: Encounter Books, US), which caused historian Andrew Roberts to hail Murray as ‘The Right’s answer to Michael Moore,’ saying, 'This book shows how to fight and win the War on Terror.' Mr Roberts himself is a member of the Advisory Council of the Centre for Social Cohesion, as is Baroness Cox, who appeared earlier in the Newsnight programme, though her affiliation was not made clear.

The confrontation was set up to provide more heat than light, and was very badly handled by Jeremy Paxman. A sorry performance by the BBC, reflected in the trivialisation of this hugely sensitive issue in the "Sound of Music"-punning phrase "what are we going to do about sharia?". A sad reflection on the decline of journalistic values at the BBC.

Shariah law i think has been mainly looked upon as bad and as some may even go as far to say EVIL. But the law is there just as any law, which is to have justice through out the land. PEACE. The meaning of islam. Shariah law is very much 'hands on' as in it deals with crimes such as stealing, murder, adultery ect.

For stealing you chop the hand they stole with, they cant steal again and will clearly be recognised as a theif. No criminal file needed.

Murder and adultery which are punishable by death are there to give a very big warning to stop others from doing it.

Crime is like a virus it spreads in numbers but by stamping out the virus straight away instead of wating for it to grow in prison cell, stops it from spreading.

Shariah law and Islam is there for giving peace and not everyone is peaceful. others may argue how is killing or chopping off hands peaceful? They would be completely right in saying so but what it does do is get rid of the things that disturb the peace.

But the punishments are not just it. Islam teaches to be forgiving, to be humble, to be respectful to people. And i heard in tonights newsnight that women were equal to half of men.
This really annoyed me because in islam the MOTHER a WOMAN of course is to be treated with the highest respect after God The list goes as so: 1. God
2. Mother
3. Mother
4. Mother
5. Father

So if any one can point out to me where that shows a Woman half equal to a man I will be impressed. And when you see men in turbans and scarfs and apparent 'MUSLIMS' shooting women or treating them like dirt. I can tell you that is not Shariah law,not Islam and i dont even think that they deserve the honour of being called a muslim and i would certainly not want a man like that to be known as my brother in Islam.

The Archbishop needs to stand down. His statement has proved him to be ignorant, ridiculous and irrelevant to the 21st century. I can't help wondering what he expects to gain by making such a statement, which he must have known would create enormous controversy.

Either he is a very stupid man, now extremely shocked at the reaction of Britain to his statement, or he is sinisterly trying to create a crusade-like anti-muslim zeal with his coments. I can't imagine why else the head of the Anglican church would suggest inserting another religion's laws into those that have developed out of a christian culture.

I watched Newsnight tonight and was inspired by the way Douglas Murray contributed his views to the programme. Typically the Bishop and he Muslim academic waffled on, even Paxman had problems controlling their rhetoric. I would like to see more of Murray as I am sure he represents the opinions of a large majority of the British poopulation.

Like the rest of the silent majority in the UK I am astonished at the comments made by the Archbishop.
Everyone in this Country should be subject to the same law-without exception.
It is inexcuseable to allow Muslims to impose their narrow vision on our society. As a gay man-professional and partnered I abhor the intolerance which their religion promotes.There are of course many muslims who live in the Uk and wish to truly integrate and this I respect.
We must not however pander to any narrow religous philosphy of whatever persuasion-thankfully European society has moved on.
The Archbishop should ideally resign or as a minimum explain his naive and misguided speech.
Michael Russell

the Archbishop's is a servant to the crown and to the people of this Country he should not be able to make such decision and comments on what we should have or not surly it is the people of this country to make any decision to change the law or not?We have elected politicians to act for us not Dr Rowan Williams if it is point of view he should keep it to himself. Maybe we as the people of this country should ask that the government bring back treason law and public hanging de bowelment and drawn and quater see how he like tose sort of law.i say we stay with the present law we do not need or required a muslim state here and from what i am hearing if any of us christian go to any islamic country we have to conform to there laws so why should we change our law for the rest anyone i do not beleave we are being Islamophobic. i am proud to be british and prouw or our laws and was pepare to stand up for it what next ? we have been very tolerant but this is one Step too Far I am scared for us all if we decide to go give every one there own law where will we be next ? God Save the Queen and us her loyal subjects.

Does English law recognise synagogue and mosque weddings and can somebody explain to me what sharia property law is all about because the bbc didn't

Comment on #192

Jenny, you have hit the nail squarely on the head. When I heard the World at One interview I suspected that Dr Williams' real aim was to secure even more priviliges for religious groups within British society; having now had an opportunity to read the text of his lecture, I am now convinced of it.

The real mischief is that he has stirred up an entirely avoidable and largely specious furore over the application of Sharia law. On the other hand, this has given apologists for his views an opportunity to claim that any criticism arises from Islamophobia.

In view of this latest fiasco, surely it's time that Church of England was disestablished, that bishops were ejected from the House of Lords, and that the education of our children was taken out of the hands of faith schools of whatever religion or denomination.

I have never posted on something like this before, but after watching Questiontime last night, and now tonight's Newsnight, I feel I must point out that Andy Burnham MP, and the Bishop of Hulme are both in error - the Archbishop of Canterbury is most definitely NOT the spiritual leader of the UK. The Bishop may like to think so, but like so many of his fellow prelates, he lives in a world of medieval spiritual snobbishness and make-believe.

The Archbishop IS the spiritual leader of that spiritually and morally bankrupt institution called the Church of England, but thankfully the same institution does not represent the real Body of Christ in the UK, and he most certainly do not speak for me nor many of my contemporaries. When the Anglican Communion elected this limp-wristed Druid as their spiritual leader whatever respect many of us might have had for its supposed spiritual authority went out the window.

Quite frankly, the sooner he retires or resigns, the better it will be for all of us, especially the Christian Church in this nation. And the sooner this useless institution is disestablished, the sooner the real Church will be freed from the shackles that have undermined it for decades, if not centuries!

I do not see that belief in this or that supernatural being should have anything to do with the Laws of this country.

For one reason or another, perhaps to seek comfort, many people do believe in supernatural gods, but this should not exclude them from obeying the Laws of this land as all non-believers have to do.

The Archbishop of Canterbury has always seemed a well-meaning guy to me, but he is hopelessly out of touch with the general public in this country. He exemplifies why the majority of Britain's inhabitants and almost all young people find the Church of England quite irrelevant to their lives.

Not too many years ago I worked outside of the UK. My employer informed me that if I stayed within the laws of that country, no problem. However, if I was to step outside those laws,I was essentially on my own. Why, when people come to this country, do they think they can dictate and attempt to live outside of our laws? If someone comes to this country, they should live by the laws of this country. I believe that 50 years from now anyway, the laws will have changed, only because the religious bias will have changed, and as a consequence, so will the laws of this land. I am for living together, but I believe that those coming here should abide by our laws. Could I go to a foreign country and expect to change the laws there? I don't think so, do you??? I won't be here in 50 years so why should I care. Wrong attitude, we should all care because it will become our children's problem and their children's problem. Goodnight.

im sick of hearing things must change for muslims. if its not one thing its something else. how much more have we to take. we are a westernised country and the law is good enough as it is. if people wish to live by this law, why do they not pack there bags and live in a country which administers this law, this country is begining to feel less and less British year by year, how much more have our beliefs values and tollerance got to be chucked back in our faces...

As an elderly british woman. I have experienced sexism from some muslim men and I would not feel safe or want any sharia law in this country that would reinforce some muslim mens attitude to women.
I feel it would also be a step backwards for the young muslim women who have been brave enough to make a stand for themselves and had the backing of our laws!

I spent almost 10 years working and living in Saudi Arabia, and witnessed a tremendously high level of crime from all types at all levels. Corruption was endemic in so many areas of life. Theft, such as daily shoplifting was very common. Young Saudis ( and older ones ) regularly broke all traffic laws. I was bribed ( attempted ) so many times by Saudi trainess, to pass ( and even , FAIL ) in course tests.
Drugs and alcohol consumtion was fairly common in so many Saudi households. Wife abuse and abuse of house staff was a notoriously regular way of life in many homes of the "locals". Cheating at every level was "par for the culture.
Severe and dreadful racial actions are part of the social fabric, and a form of slavery exists in virtually every area of this muslim state.
Many major crimes are ignored or "hidden", as this may make the Saudi locals " lose face " if the truth were ever to be made public.
Women in general, have few rights.
This is a most lawless nation that thrives, despite islamic laws.

Up to now I have been an admirer of Jeremy Paxman and enjoy his stimulating debates but tonight I felt that he went “beyond the pale” in his rudeness to the Oxford Professor, especially at the start of the discussion when he rudely and unnecessarily interrupted him while he was making his initial statement explaining Sharia law to us in relation to the Archbishop’s lecture. His untimely interjection to let Mr. Murray’s “rant” have an inordinate time and prominence lowered the debate from what could have been highly informing and productive to an un-intellectual “squabble”. It ended up so disappointing and wasteful.

The question asked is has the reaction been Islamophobic? The answer is no. A phobia is an irrational fear. Those who oppose this suggestion from the Archbishop are able to cite evidence from The Koran and other Islamic scriptures and the way Sharia Law works in practice abroad. We've all seen through the smokescreen of crying "Islamophobia" to try to shut people up.

It seems perfectly reasonable for people to debate Western politics and Western religions and quote the Bible. If somebody is concerned at The Koran's saying: "Make war on the unbelievers and on the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate," then they should be allowed to say so. In this context I think "Islamophobia" is an oxymoron.

Has the BBC's reaction to the Archbishop's Sharia law comments been idiotic?

For goodness' sake read the interview: http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/1573.

This is now typical BBC behaviour: reporting on itself and claiming an exclusive. They know perfectly well that a good percentage of their audience won't bother reading the transcript and so it's a home-made scoop.

And to make it appear a real dichotomy they wheel in the most right-wing of main stream politicians on Newsnight.

This is useless, cheap hackwork.

No I haven’t gone daft, I’m actually going to support the Archbishop of Canterbury.
Why? Because he is only raising issues which naturally arise when there are two million Muslims here. Such a sizeable group is entitled to have its religious beliefs respected.
If we didn’t like what would logically follow, we shouldn’t have allowed so much immigration in the first place.
Faced with this swamping, the Government is now coming up with dotty initiatives to try to salvage traditional British culture - citizenship classes, discussions of Britishness, daily raising the Union flag on Government buildings.
Alas, it now all looks like an unstoppable tide.
Brilliant, Blair and Brown. You’ve buggered Britain.

I believe the archbishop made a serious error in straying from his area of expertise. His chief role is to represent and proclaim the teaching of Jesus Christ and the theology and beliefs of the christian faith. Perhaps he was flattered by being invited to address a group of distinguished members of the legal profession. To have stressed the importance of Christian teaching and the contribution that Christianity had contributed to shaping our legal system and national values would in my view been a more appropriate approach to take. If he does not believe that Christian values and the teaching of Jesus Christ is sufficient to influence our laws then he should consider his position and claims to be a disciple of Christ.

We do not require a multicultural society that seeks to appease everyone and has no clear message and values for our nation.
History is littered with accounts of nations that abandoned its moral and religious values and then found themself in decline.

As a theologian he should be aware of the account of the decline morally, politcally and economically of Israel when it abandoned its religious and moral values. At the end of the book of Judges in the Old Testament the decline of Israel is attributed to the fact that 'everybody did that which was right in their own eyes.' The preceding chapters refer to the polytheism and multiculturalism of the Jews at this point in their history.

Multiculturalism results in a diminution of important principles, a loss of identity and a lack of clear direction within a nation.

The archbishop of the Anglican Church should promte its Christian teaching and ensure that this is his prime focus and priority.

What motive does the Arch Bishop of Canterbury have by trying to get us to adopt Muslim (Sharia) law? Perhaps he is indebted to Muslims (the 16,000 3G Masts placed in Churches all around England are paid for by Muslim Brothers of Tchenguiz family). The Masts cost the Tchenguiz family £1,898,141 in 2002 alone (Company House). They don't require repaying apparently. Or do they?

laugh a minute, at the folks who are complaining about things like
"If you want to live in Britain, then you need to live by British laws! There shouldn't be any special treatment for anyone."

oh ok so we dont have all the EU laws imposed on us ?
and no special treatment for MPs who sidestep embezzlement laws ( allegedly)

massive downturn in church attendance, we the christians....

do something about it !! vote. go to church to support your great christian beliefs.
or if you dont, then dont sit there and complain about the barbarians at the gate, effete ones.

Am amazed this is even being given the time of day. We are appalled and outraged as, if we were in Iran we would have to abide by their law ie the Sharia Law, but we are not. If people from other cultures and faiths wish to live here then they should have the respect to abide by our laws and give our Christian religion the respect they demand for theirs. The Archbishop is supposedly a Christian, he should certainly not be promoting other religions but preaching about tolerance. He is a disgrace to the Christian Religion and to the whole of our Christian country we live in. He should resign as should all clergy who support his view. To all the people who wish for Sharia law, they should go to a country that promotes and recognises it. We as a family have always been very accepting of other faiths and cultures. This is a step too far. We realise that we have to focus on our own culture and heritage because if the indigenous population don't,it will disappear forever. This is a sad,sad day for evryone in this country.

From the disillusioned Cole Family.

Comment on #198

Much as some of us might wish to see the back of them, I believe that Dr Williams and the Bishop of Hulme are English and don't have any other country to go back to.

See comment 197. British law which is so fair and precious is based on Christian principles. So let's look at what that Christianity has to say.Does anyone else remember a Methodist (I think from their Moderating Council or whatever it is) speaking on Radio 4 a few years ago about an experience he had had when praying during a Council session? He was so taken aback he was anxious to share it at national level. I suspect it was only broadcast on 'Sunday' rather than the Today prog. He was shown a vision of England in the future as an Islamic state. He asked Jesus how that could be and the Lord replied "It will come about because my people are not ready." I have never forgotten how shocking it was to hear a man of integrity speaking in quiet measured tones about something so frightening. Today's huge reaction isn't racist - it is against any possibility that a system that has barbaric aspects should be given a toe-hold in our beloved land. A previous comment (before no 100 I think) quoted from 1 Corinthians 13 and said that love is the answer. Yes it is , but part of love is correcting error. Jesus answered people who advocated the old law of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth (which in itself had been an amelioration of what went before) with the command to love your enemies and do good to those who hate you. These are the principles on which British law is founded and for which we must stand.

I cant believe that so many people have missed the point on this! I didnt feel Jeremy gave the archbishops argument a serious chance and handled the debate unfairly impinging on the Islamic Scholar.

I dont want sharia law in the UK. I believe a single british legal system.

BUT this wasnt the point! Williams is pointing to the fact that we live in a multi faith society which is being incresingly divided by fear the hate and fear stoked by extremists, governments and the media witch hunt!

He was talking about the similarities that exist and ways in which we can look to engage based on similar issues and reject exteme views (unequal womens rights, chopping hand, death etc).

The media (including Paxo) has again responded with a knee jerk reaction rather than presenting a more balanced, complex and accurate picture of these issues. I feel This breading of hate and anger is only leading to more division and hatred. If i was a moderate Muslim in the UK i would feel threatened.

Williams was doing his job to promote peace and interaction between communities and reject the extremists and the government twisted words.

Newsnight as a public broadcaster should work harder to present an intelligent discussion. Paxo and guests need to engage with reasonably and with RESPECT rather than act like a LYNCH MOB calling for Williams resignation.

PS
I cant believe Douglas Murray is a director at the the 'Centre for Social Cohesion' - he would be more appropriate at the 'Centre for Social SEGREGATION'... came across as a very angry man and pretty unpleasant man...

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||. in my heyday, you might revisit that interview and tell me where you could have done better

Jews have maintained for well over a thousand years that the Law of the land is the Law. Britain must demand that Muslims follow that road. If they don't like it, there is a simple expedient: a one way ticket back home or to the Muslim state of their choice. And they pay for it. No handouts. The Muslims who leave can be replace by any number of Christians from Latin America or Africa.

What motive does the Arch Bishop of Canterbury have by trying to get us to adopt Muslim (Sharia) law? Perhaps he is indebted to Muslims (the 16,000 3G Masts placed in Churches all around England are paid for by Muslim Brothers of Tchenguiz family). The Masts cost the Tchenguiz family £1,898,141 in 2002 alone (Company House). They don't require repaying apparently. Or do they?

Tariq Ramadan is either lying or is not such an expert on Islam as he claims to be. He said that under Islam everyone is equal. Was he counting that this is a good propaganda and nobody will detect the untruth? If somebody brings a Bible to Saudi Arabia he will find himself in prison. Not to mention the endless laws which treat Chrisitians and Jews as "dhimis" second class citizens who are only tolerated if they pay a special tax, called Jizya, and act in total submission to Muslims. In Sharia courts the evidence of a Moslem is considered superior to that of a non-Muslim.

Big lies are routinely used by Islamists to confuse and mislead the public in the West. Jeremy Paxman should have challenged Ramadhan when he made the statement that all are equal under Islam.

The Archbishop has two characteristics that qualify him to talk about Sharia law - he is male and he has a beard.

He should resign immediately. He has never defended the Christian faith

Would Muslims ever entertain the suggestion of implementing Christian law in Pakistan, for example, where there are a number of ethnic Christians who may prefer to be considered in non-Islamic terms? Of course not, it's a Muslim country and that's the law of the land regardless of however many minorites happen to also live there.

They can't have it both ways though and Sharia law has no business in Britain, not now, not ever!

The mere mention of sharia law evokes an islamophobic reaction. people are taking archbishops remarks in very negative manner.
what the archbishop suggested was to incorporate certain aspects of sharia law into british law. all systems, however good and robust need changing from time to time. if the archbishop finds something good and useful in sharia law and suggests incorporating it in british law there is nothing wrong with it.the aspects of personal law which he mentions are practiced and accepted by muslim community anyway. he just suggestted some kind of acceptance of that by the british law. no one suggested a parallel system.

The Archbishop has two characteristics that qualify him to talk about Sharia law - he is male and he has a beard.

He should resign immediately. He has never defended the Christian faith

We should move away from ill-informed debates about what is Sharia law. Commentators misquote Islam, which is more of an expression of Islamophobia. The overwhelming majority of British Muslims are law-abiding citizens who have earned their rightful place in British society and are happy to live under British law

Also, let us remember that the most Muslims live in nations that are secular, even where there may be a majority of Muslims, and do not follow Sharia law, for example, Bangladesh.

What is dangerous is if ill-informed but powerful commentators assume that Sharia law is the ideal being demanded by all Muslims. This misrepresentation is damaging.

The continuous misrepresntaion of Islam is making it hard for decent law-abiding Muslim cisitzens to be accepted for what they are. This is a great pity because British Muslims have made and continue to make a substantial contribution to British society

After watching the programme I feel it is necessary to make another comment:

Mr Murray was terrible. Judging by his aggressive attitude, his refusal to listen to - let alone absorb - what others were trying to say, and his warped facial gestures, he could have been a BNP representative.

The discussion was not civil, and though Mr Ramadan tried to be reasonable no light was shed on the matter at all.

It seems not even the Archbishop of Canterbury will put the feelings of the ordinary Brit above his wish to pander to the wishes of the Moslems. Our fathers fought for this country and ALL it stands for but we have been invaded anyway. We see our cities overtaken, our heretage and culture eroded before our eyes. So okay they are here now. Best of luck to them, no one wants to hurt their feelings but please don't take any more liberties-our patience is running out. And Mr Williams, resign. You let us down.
stands for

I think it unlikely the archbishop was being intentially Islamophobic. I genuinely think he was trying to introduce a debate. He has been successful in that! Perhaps more successful than he would like. He does however have a point. Whilst there are many Muslims in this country who do not want to live under Sharia law. It may be one of the reasons they came here but there are some who think they should be entitled to bring it with them for some reason. NO! I, by the way, am native white female English Christian (occasionally practicing), but I hope this doesn't mean that my opinions are less valid

I watched the Newsnight programme tonight, and I'm afraid that to me it seemed that the Muslim representative who got so irate about Paxman "not allowing" him to answer (even though he never did actually answer the question clearly) was very eager to shout down his adversary. An adversary, I have to say, who was not trying to shout him down. It's that sort of behaviour which causes "Islamaphobia", and not some genetic defect in the general public.

I think the press have predictably overeacted because this is what sells papers. I don't think the archbishop was being "Islamophobic", neither do I think that he is a bumbling old buffoon like the US presidents we are accustomed to. He had his reasons. He may have made a mistake, but I don't think so. I think it's time we had this out in the open!

It was only on Tuesday this week that I said to my boss at work that I was concerned to learn that Sharia law is already practiced in this country. Then I found out that it's really just used as an appendix to British law and as long as it is a subsiduary of British law and not superior to it I have no more objection to it that I do to the Jewish courts. As far as I am concerned, Sharia law can take place as long as it does not contravene British law. So for instance if Sharia law says that a man must say "I divorce thee" in order fro a divorce to take place, then they are welcome to do that as long as British lawy is also satisfied the divorce is valid by the due process of British law.

I think the reason so many are concerned though is that it's very clear from the actions of fanatical muslims that there is an extreme minority which wishes to force its views on the rest of society, Muslim or not. It is that minority of which we are all quite justifiably afraid. And it's no good pretending that we're being "Islamophobic" in that just because these people claim to live by the laws of Islam. They are the same people who practice religious laws which are unacceptable in this country and it is those laws we are afraid of.

I believe that until British Muslims are seen to publicly unite and renounce the extremists then suspicion will abound Muslims will not be fully accepted. The British Muslim council just won't do because we believe them to be political pawns on the make. We would like the real Muslim population to stand up and be counted in this. We have reason to be afraid. We do not want another culture forcing its laws upon us because obviously that will erode our culture and our society. In modern vernacular, that is what is called a no-brainer! If they have their own rules and stuff then as long as it's voluntary and subsidiary I do not see a problem. But if someone comes to me and tells me that's how I have to live my life because then it's possible that I might start to get angry too and I think I speak for many. I also believe this is one of the most tolerant societies in the world (for all of the harsh shrieking of "Islamaphobe!"), but quite rightly there are limits. It's not Islamophobia but we would like to keep out own culture thanks - you know, the one most of us we were brought up with. I'm sorry to say that the definining argument in most people's hearts and minds (and mine too) still is "well it's our law, you came here so live by it and if you don't like it then you know what you can do!". More politely put, this would read "You're welcome to stay, but you have to live by our rules!"

What is so wrong with that? That is not a part of our cluture that I want to change. Our Queen has in the past honoured the customs of other cultures wherever she goes. It is not unreasonable that we expect visitors long or short term to our shores to honour ours.

We should move away from ill-informed debates about what is Sharia law. Commentators misquote Islam, which is more of an expression of Islamophobia. The overwhelming majority of British Muslims are law-abiding citizens who have earned their rightful place in British society and are happy to live under British law

Also, let us remember that the most Muslims live in nations that are secular, even where there may be a majority of Muslims, and do not follow Sharia law, for example, Bangladesh.

What is dangerous is if ill-informed but powerful commentators assume that Sharia law is the ideal being demanded by all Muslims. This misrepresentation is damaging.

The continuous misrepresntaion of Islam is making it hard for decent law-abiding Muslim cisitzens to be accepted for what they are. This is a great pity because British Muslims have made and continue to make a substantial contribution to British society

How do you solve a problem like Sharia? Thank you Jeremy that was sublime. Tariq tried to make the point that there are many versions of shariah and that we are emphasising the worst - but that is the problem, there ARE many variations but no structured and accepted authority to ensure that the most benign are followed. While "benign" interpretations cannot be guaranteed, there should be no experiments that might subject "volunteers" to the judgements of shariah courts. Rowan has once again, sadly but not surprisingly, shown himself naive and foolish

I have just watched the Newsnight debate which I hoped would throw some light on the matter and result in an intelligent discussion.
At first I was not disappointed, the two anglican clergy were allowed to present their opposing views and did so with mutual respect.
However, when the muslim academic and Mr Muuray entered the fray things became very different. Muuray was allowed his anti-Islamic rant almost uninterupted and to talk over his opponent at will. THe treatment of the muslim was entirely different: he was not allowed to answer questions which do not admit of a simple answer in other than simpolistic terms. '... ANSWER YES OR NO' was the almost bullying tone of Paxman in his prosecuiting barrister mode.
I think Paxman handled this part of the interview disgrcefully in both allowing a one sided discussion, colluding with a bully and in failing to extract from the muslim professor information which might have enlightened the debate.
Incidently, I am a secularist and would not choose any faith court as an arbiter in law, but would not seek to prevent others doing so provided all parties are willing and that such arbitration is subject to the common law.

First point