Talk about Newsnight

AT LAST !

BIG PROBLEM = FIND SOLUTION

such a difficult concept for the government that s what we pay them for !

In view of the fact that for centuries people from Britain have gone where they wanted in the world to trade and to settle, often using force to get their own way, is it not hypocritical to stop other people from coming to Britain to better themselves? In the process we gain from their hard work and tax contributions.

We can help our foreign neighbours more by supporting them more in staying abroad in their own countries. Britain has taken more than its fair share in Europe, and the world, we can't take any more. It's time for other countries to do their bit.

The hotels and shops in my remote Scottish community are filled with workers from the EU - because the locals will not demean themselves to clean rooms, serve food etc. So we have lost our local young people to the towns. Cultural loss if not an economic one.

The influx of 'immigrants' (and we all have EU passprts, not ndividual country ones so I use the term 'immigrant' somewhat loosley) has made it even more impossible to get a dentist here in the north east, the doctor's surgery is even more crowded

African immigrants can help mitigate the effects of aging populations in many parts of the world and provide cheap labour. The money they send back home can help reduce poverty in Africa and stimulate economic development.
Is the black skin of the African a reason why this mutually beneficial arrangement is not in practice?

20 years ago my company won the Queens award for training

Now it would appear we as a country cannot train our youth to do the jobs that need doing.

ensuring we have to allow people of the same age to come in from other countries with I suspect no better credentials, needing to use our services just to survive here.

If we had trained our youth we would not be in this dilemma

Oh dear - Newsnight is now presenting a show with Richard Bacon.(sacked by Blue Peter for taking cocaine - it's true - here's the BBC news story reporting it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/specials/drugs/351602.stm

Is he the kind of person they want associated with Newsnight?
Incidently, Five Live will only put provocative emails and comments out on air. I have made numerous calls which are fair - and probably not provocative. Mention a slight racist comment - I reckon false stories about Roma will be broadcast (substitute Roma with, say, black or Asian) - and it'll get on air.

Bad news -

If this country has to import immigrants to do certain jobs then it is a failing of our system. Immigration should be stopped now and UK people forced into training for these jobs. This is one way of getting some national pride back.

Britain is a small island, we cannot continue to sustain in any way the huge numbers of immigrants/migrants coming into this country. It is outrageous that we don't know how many 'illegals' we have and I no longer trust the government's figures overall. It was only when the local councils realised that they could no longer afford to integrate these newcomers that the full implications arose. Controlled numbers of skilled workers undoubtedly benefit Britain, but we are not just getting skilled workers, we are getting economic migrants who need support in every aspect of their lives. These people are not a benefit to our Country. We are hearing more and more British indigenous people saying that they feel alien in their own country. British tolerance is going to snap.
Some solutions:
1. limit numbers coming into country.
2. An exam proving a reasonable level of the English language before they arrive. It's a nonsense we are paying huge sums to translators
3. Change the human rights law so that we are not in the impossible position of not being able to deport people who are not in the national interest
4. Run TV programmes about Cultures including British to help promote integration and tolerance
5. All newcomers must be informed that we are a Christian country and have a tolerance for multi faiths. Some authorities for example were thinking of not celebrating Christmas because they believe it offends other cultures. This is totally wrong. This would not be tolerated if a British person went to live in a non Christian country and asked for customs and religion to be changed.
6. Any foreigner going to prison for serious crimes here should immediately be deported on release regardless.

One question is why the debate in the UK is so damned insular - it's not like we are the only country affected by these issues. So why not ask your guests which countries, they think, have got it right, providing models for us to follow. And if there are shining examples from overseas, are there any dire warnings as well?

Hello,
First of all...Really Important topic for discussion indeed!
Yes UK had benefitted tremendously economically from Migration! We work extremely hard, pay our taxes and are not entitled to benefits. That is considering, we hold a work permit but don't hold a british passport!
We pay such incredible high fees for our studies and accomodation here with only 20 hours permitted per week for students..all compared to ofcourse British and EU nationals! It is very fashionable to talk about DISCRIMATION these days...Well hasn't anyone realised till now that this is also a form of discrimination!!!!!!! What happened to Fairness!!!!!!!
Another thing, are only muslims/blacks/sikhs entitled to discrimination????? What about the rest of us, namely; HINDUS? We just have to take anything right?...Why coz we are not obvious!! Well the authorities have not REALISED this till now!...I am so SHOCKED!
On the other hand, it has adversely affected public transport in the light of the amount of persons crammed in tube and buses...not quite pleasant We all admit...and also the traffic on the roads sadly. But it is unavoidable. Looking @ it positively, TFL benefits but negatively are the pollution & time wasted.
& definitely NO, Britain has not gained culturally as a society! We immigrants do embrace British life gladly but tis not the other way around! If we don't, well....we are singled out in merry cold London!
These are the issues...but still I will end by sayin'..."GOD SAVE THE QUEEN!"

For god,s sake !!.Don't the politicians realise that it is all too late now.The ordinary english citizen has known for the last 30-40 years that the immigration flood into this country was going to destroy our society

I was brought up in a country that was proud to have freedom of speech AND THAT STILL APPLIES AS LONG AS WE DO NOT DISCUSS IMMIGRATION.fREED OM OF SPEECH CAN HOWEVER APPLY TO SOMEONE IN A MOSQUE PREACHING MURDER AND RUINATION OF THE BRITISH PEOPLE

result-a country that is bursting at the seams with an infrastructure built for the nation that is expected to cope with the thousands of foreigners.

Absolute madness has destroyed the standards/customs/culture of this country.

In light of the forthcoming Corporate Manslaughter Act in April 2008 that will require directors and managers to take specific steps to measure and deal with the risks their employees face when they drive on business, caution must be adopted when checking the driving licences of EU workers.

This key change affecting employer's exposure to legal action over at-work driving incidents could present more logistical problems for employers with the onus on them to be even more diligent checking licences of drivers who may not be as familiar with driving on our roads and our road system as we are.

All drivers using foreign licences that commit a motoring offence in the UK have a separate DVLA record created for them - and the licence from their country of origin will not have the prosecution added to it.

Isn't it difficult enough for an employer to ensure that they are meeting their duty of care without the possible threat of criminal prosecution over an EU driver that seemingly presents a 'clean' driving licence?

If we need migrants to grow our economy, which the governments say we do, why can they not provide the services in the community that would enable migrants and non-migrants to have the better quality of life that growth in the economy brings. the problem is not with the migration, but with its effects on citizens and their dependants.

why is it now so much harder for a british student to get onto postgraduate courses, often needed a higher degree than an international student?

Well immigration is part of GLOBALIZATION. Regarding the migration to the north from the south, its only natural that if you teach me that all that is good is in the north, why will i not like to experience it first hand. It becomes a problem in the north based on 2 main issues
1. When the immigrant becomes successful ( economically or literally= jealousy e.g. Al Fayed )
2. Unsuccessful ( economically or literally= crime, destitute, social welfare benefits e.g. a Jamaican rude-boy)
In other words, immigrants are just not wanted in the north. What then is the essence of Globalization?

I personally have no problem with immigration, as long as they're working. In return, I'd like to kick out all those who don't wish to work, or provide for themselves. I'm not going to limit that last to just foreigners either. There are quite a few homegrown lowlives that I'd quite happily send on their way.

I have always welcomed immigration it has made our country more vibrant and enjoy the cultural mix. But I am getting concerned just how much the native brit is having to give up the natural british way. It seems that everyone else can have an 'Association' to protect their interests, yet a native brit cannot do the same.

When I travel I expect to comply with the dress code and culture of that country, yet we seem obsessed with accepting and accommodating everything regardless. I welcome immigration but believe that people who come here should attempt and be seen to be attempting to adhere to our codes and culture and not force over the top issues pushing our traditional tollerance and hospitality to the wire.

I agree with a previous comment about Christmas and our traditions, Birmingham Bull Ring Centre did not have christmas because it was unacceptable to other cultures, totally ignoring that this is unacceptable to christian brits. Live and let live I love to celebrate other cultural traditions but expect other cultures to respect the host country traditions.

I do think everything we do ought to be done within limits to avoid impacting badly on individuals and society as a whole. Immigration contributes a huge role in the UK economy. Immigration to west has a history and you can't change this by capping it. I think properly managed and monitored Support is needed to improve the quality of life in the countries of origin in order to deal with this problem. Aid has been provided over the years, but not much has been achieved because it was not managed well. Note that the unbearably harsh situations in some of those counties force people to emigrate and this needs to be addressed to deal with immigration. No caps, border policing or point systems will address this immigration issue.

We have had more than our our share of immigrants - the infrastructure can't cope and someone should have the guts to say "enough is enough". There is very little left in this country that can be truly called "British". If highly skilled foreigners are required then so be it but allowing in more and more unskilled economic immigrants must stop. Crime and all the problems they bring only costs us more and not just in financial terms. It's not surprising that the Brits are finding it preferable to leave Britain and find elsewhere to live because of whats being allowed to take place here because of this uncontrolled immigration.

What is a true Englishman, or Briton? We are a country of immigrants and it is the relative security and hence stability that these islands enjoyed after the last invasion of Normans in 1066 that has enabled us to develop the culture we so much wish to preserve. But, we must accept that refugees and immigrants are the very fabric of our society. They are what has made us a dynamic society. People unfamiliar with our class society, do not recognise that the strength of our aristocratic system lies not in its purity but in its ability to be totally hypocritical and overlook the 'trade' label over a generation or two. Pop stars and footballers are the bloodline of the next generation of aristocrats. The class system has survived as the new aristocrats have absorbed the culture into which they have been adopted (out of necessity). So, likewise, British society will thrive and survive by absorbing each wave of immigrant. Those who object to the new waves of Jewish/Arabian/European/African/Chinese/Indian/Bangladeshi immigrants are destined for self destruction, like a plant starved of the nutrients to grow. Let us keep the doors open so we can breath, not close them to suffocate in the claustrophobia of isolationism.

Immigration is an essential means of breaking down cultural divisions globally and is to be encouraged. At the same time, social integration is a slow process and needs nurturing, without prejudice to the indigenous population, so there have to be well defined - and controlled - limits. I think there has been a lack of spine shown by the government to date, in that many immigrants would appear to secure housing too readily, at the expense of British families, some of whom have been waiting for years. This is an issue that must be addressed urgently, if we are to avoid a backlash that tarnishes what should be a long-term benefit for society.

I would like to ask the politicians what they think the ideal number of immigrants should be - my guess is that they have no idea. The point is that immigration is by its nature fluid and changing, and depends on the needs of the country at a particular time. Noone could have predicted the success of Asians regenerating parts of the Midlands or north west in the 1980s, or the insatiable demand for Polish labourers in the 00s. Who would seriously want to turn these people away now? These are incredible success stories; economically and culturally.

It's true that our housing, infrastructure and public services are in decline, but if we want to improve them surely the labour of immigrants is part of the solution? Immigration, when not looked at irrationally (like politicians tend to do probably do even more than the general public) can help revive industries and generate new jobs, as all recent history has shown. That's why no government has set a figure on the numbers - because it would be economic and cultural suicide to do so.

Once a week I visit a failed asylum seeker, detained in an immigration removal centre. He is from the Kurdish part of Iraq. He has been in detention for nearly a year with no prospect of removal or release.

What is happening in immigration removal centres is unacceptable and unknown to the majority of the public. I have listened to and seen the injuries of people who have been beaten up on the way to the plane to be deported, I have been told about officers punching detainees, people contemplating suicide and self harm; people with severe mental health issues, including post traumatic stress disorder resulting from torture in their home countries, people who cannot comprehend why they are there and what they could have ever done to deserve this.

Politicians are seemingly blissfully unaware of the mistreatment of those facing deportation; eager only to pander to the ill-informed views of those (including the media) who believe that immigrants, bogus asylum seekers, economic migrants, foreign nationals (whatever the choice derogatory word of the moment may be) are criminals who seem to destroy ‘Britishness’, take our jobs, our homes etc. The mantra of get them out whoever they are, whatever they have been through, whatever they may face if they are forcibly returned, is deeply misguided and immoral. Britain has a responsibility to deliver a sanctuary for those who face persecution in their home country. The asylum seekers who I spend time with are not here for a free ride or an easy life and wish that they could return home in safety.

I also hope that your 'expert' panel will include views from asylum seekers, for who could be more expert than they?

Untill the UK withdraws from the EU, discussions on immigration are irevolent.
Brussels will decide the Immigration policy of this country.We no longer have control of our own borders & the three main partys are aware of this, but of course won't mention this fact.
Still, look on the bright side, there's ONLY 400 Million citizens in the EU, all with the right to enter this small island !!

Living in Lambeth (South London) I am p[leased that at last this will be debated.
My own experience is that any debate is stopped by those on the extreme left or right who use the race card.
Political correctness has meant that the extreme points of view always win.

X Y or X voluntary group must not be listened to because it does not reflect the local community. What this has to do with those who are say interested in Horticulture beats me, surley it it the cost of say allotment rents which should be paparmount - not the mix of the committee.
Of course what this also stops debate about is the forming of enclaves of imigrant groups, surley not helpfull to eithier initgration or social cohesion.

Certainley in Lambeth this influences the issue of immigration service activity as the Police are always worried about public order.

Surely the law is there to be applied equally and fairly to all?

The stockwell shooting allowed the columbian representative to gain waver as so many of them are working here illegally.

Conflict between different agencies is not helpful.

What certainly is clear is that the lack of debate for so long has caused too much concern to the majority for far too long as politicians will do any thing to gain one vote even if it is not in the best intersts of the country

We are a small island which can still take a few more people but they have to be of benfit to the whole community and not be a drain.

Have the debate with no holds barred which I doubt will happen for fear of being labelled racisit when in fact this is nothing to do with race - it is to do with what can this country realistically cope with

It's to do with culture, not race. I really do not like to see mosques in my home town. The feeling is a bit irrational.

And it isn't particularly 'multi'cultural either, which I find intimidating.

There are parts of the world which appear to be bursting with people, who have a much lower standard of living. On wonder they will come if given the opportunity.

However, do we all have a duty to accept large numbers of incomers, just because of burgeoning population growth?

Or does a failure by government to properly regulate greed have something to do with it--investors in the housing market needing the pressure of people (tennants) to prop up the ludicrous house prices.

I've noticed that politicians seem to pigeon hole immigrants into just two categories - economic migrants which contribute financially to the economy and asylum seekers who are genuinely seeking refuge. There is a third category which I believe are a net drain on services and fails to get publicity - bringing dependants and relatives over to stay.

I have recently came out of a relationship with a woman whose family were from an Asian country. During the time I was with her the family brought over two additional families into this country using 'back door methods'.

The first was to bring one family over so they could have their child's birth here. The second was by sending children over to be put into schools and be privately fostered by relatives. The parents then apply for temporary visitors permits and stay permanently because their children are established.

In both cases the families could not speak good English and did not work. They do not appear on any official registers because they are living with relatives and the Councils in which they live are providing health and education services without any income from the families or government.

I am also very surprised to see how a primary school was happy to enrol the children full time with the parents not even in this country. This cannot be good for our overcrowded schools or the children living apart from their parents for long periods. It also means less places for existing mothers seeking to find their children full time places so they can go back to work.

I teach Business and Management across a range of courses in our College (which is one of the best in Britain according to any Government yardstick one wishes to use)and I can say that we see increasing numbers of students from across the globe on these courses. I firmly believe that the "immigrants" that we have enrich the learning experiences of all students; not least because they are conscientious, hard working and polite in all that they do.Be they from Eastern Europe, the Middle or Far East, they acquit themselves with satisfaction if not distinction and set a telling example for some of their British contemporaries.

It has become apparent to me that on matters related to immigration MPs of all colours (report 5th November) are ignorant of EU Directive 2004/38/EC which should be compulsory reading for them. It is this Directive that determines the right of every citizen of the EU, together with their family members, to reside freely within the territory of Member States.

Family members retain the right of residence in the event of death, divorce, annulment of marriage or termination of registered partnership. Those convicted of crimes and serving a custodial sentence have the right to remain in the host state if they have lived there for ten years. Ministerial ignorance of the Directive was evident on this latter point when the Government request to deport Italian born murderer Learco Chindamo, was refused by a senior High Court Judge.

David Cameron in his recent speech on immigration states that we need “a total acceptance of the facts” and the need for a “policy to reduce the level of net immigration”. The Prime Minister in his recent speech declares “British jobs for British workers”.

It is this Directive that controls EU immigration permitting EU citizens “to move freely and reside freely within the territory of the Member States”. The lack of understanding of this readily available document by politicians of every hue is evident.

Harry M Randall
Dorchester
Dorset

I totally agree with L. Evans at comment no 9.
I would just like to add another suggestion, and that is that we should adopt the points system that pertains when one attempts to migrate to (say) Canada. They have a priority list of qualifications needed to attain sufficient points to gain admittance to live in the country. They also have a tighter customs system that keeps a record of everyone entering and leaving the country.

It may seem to be too late, but unless some control system is put in place soon, the British culture that we have fought for over so many centuries will be totally subsumed.

Finally I can ask these questions without being called a 'racist'. For the record, I am a professional university educated white anglo saxon man in his mid 40's who'se always voted Labour.

1) Why does my culture (white/English) come second in any debate about immigration or immigrants and what constitutes 'British'?

2) It is clear that priority is given to immigrants in housing notwithstanding the CRE's report (that will be probably so politically correct that it will say nothing). When I lived in Bethnal Green, London E1 5 years' ago the local authority had built housing estates with 6+ bedroomed houses. Only Bengali families were qualified to live in them. The needs of the generational community that had been living there for many years were mostly passed over.

3) Isn't it about time that the generational communities that have been a part of this nation for several generations can question the changes that are being imposed upon us in our name by successive governments in the name of 'equality' without being snubbed by a straightjacket of Political Correctness?

4) I've just spent a few days as an inpatient in a London hospital. Many nurses would complain about several of their black and asian colleagues being lazy or not pulling their weight but could not object to them officially because their objections would be called 'racist'. Why is this?

5) If this is nation based in history then why are we always apologising for it to immigrant communities - this doesn't happen in other ex-colonial powers?

6) Why do taxes go to pay for multiple translations of documentation into other languages? Australia doesn't do this, nor do many of our European partners.

7) Isn't it true that New Labour have just followed an 'open door' policy out of both political conviction and political correctness and turned their faces away from the consequences?

8) Many small towns in and around this country are swamped with immigrants and other nationals from overseas. What about their generational communities? Why aren't they allowed to object? Eg Barking in East London/Essex was a average nice place to grow up in the 1970's. Now my Father is afraid to leave his home because the changes in the area make him afraid. When I visit him I don't recognise the area at all - this is wrong.

9) How can it be right to put into care homes looking after elderly people cheap staff who know nothing about the culture and background of these people and don't even speak their language a lot of the time.

10) How many 'New Labour' councils will be cancelling Christmas celebrations in our schools this year in case it 'upsets' their local minorities? Several have already cancelled 'Guy Fawks' night this year because the immigrants in their community didn't understand what it was about. What about the generational communities who grew up with these traditions? What about our/their rights? Oughtn't being a British Citizen to come with a responsibility to 'know' and accept these traditions?

Equality of opportunity cuts both way. It's very clear that the cultural abusers of the past, the social apoligists have in the past 10 years have done the British/English way of life very few favours. Why do they dismiss their country and it's traditions so easily and so often in favour of the cultures of others?

Are the members of the panel interested in Europe or do they see it as a burden to get rid off ?
Do they understand London is not their capital but within the United states of Europe this is the beautiful city of Brussels ?
Can I feel myself a true citizen within the UK being Belgian or do you see me as an alien ?
Do you rather join USA than USE rather $ than Euro ?
Are you fearful of a soft invasion contrary to the hard attempt of a certain Adolf ?
Cheers
Willem
Nice to be European...

The comments suggesting that immigrants should attain a certain level of competency in English prior to them being accepted are wide of the mark since it is fairly clear that English will soon not be the first language of your country in any case.

We must accept that population density in this country is becoming too high. Therefore, there must be immigration controls but it must be a compromise between the present citizens and potential immigrants. Firstly we must have proper border controls, published priorities for nationality, occupation, english langauge, health and non-criminal record according to a points system using experiences from countries such as Australia

Since we all come from planet earth,and many folk,including UK citizens, are currently moving from country to country I consider it foolish to stir up dissension about who came from where, when, or why. We each contribute in our different ways, most of us just wanting a peaceful, secure life.Focussing on exceptions eg the greedy,violent few-in which I includie George Bush and his gang of criminals - we don't want him or his influence here -ignores the well-motivated many.

It seems to me it's a little late for the UK to hold an immigration debate. It's like closing the barn door after the horse has left or in this case come in. It was time for an immigration debate BEFORE the UK ceded its sovereignty to the EU. Now that's ancient history and the immigrants have arrived. This is no mere abstraction anymore, its reality on every street in every city in Britain. So what will you do if you decide you've made a mistake, throw them out? It's not and never was a question of whether or not to have immigration, it was a question of who would control who would and could enter the UK, under what terms, and at what rate? It seems to me that was already answered, it is Brussels which will decide. And don't think those Red Lines will help you, article 10 paragraph 4 gives the EU the right to impose unilateral unspecified penalties on the UK if holds holds on to them for more than five years. Some trade pact the EU turned out to be, the UK drove 10% of its indigenous population out to be traded for that many foreigners and much more. Well at least the pipes don't leak anymore, even if the borders are a sieve.

There are at least three kinds of immigrant, but commentators fail to differentiate for fear of criticism of 'prejudice'. But it is these very fears that also disable a democracy from analysing its problems. The Labour Government frequently, and consistently brands those who seek to disagree with them as tarnished with 'racism'. Thus, disabling any debate, as countering this criticism detours discussions into a separate arguement, wasting time.

What are these 'kinds', these categories of immigrant? In greatest demand are those highly qualified Medical Personnel, Engineers, Scientists that we are apparently lacking. Perhaps we should demand an independent appraisal that this is so, for private companies and NGO's seeking to import such qualifications from abroad.

Probably next, we have the economic migrant, who like you and I, probably consumes the most public services, if, when he/she brings the family over here.

Thirdly, we have the additional family members seeking to join relatives; the arranged marriage spouse; then the individuals who have a right of UK residence (and who may be repaying an arrangement to support new immigrant status organised through family brokerage years earlier.) For example, members of village, or guild, or working practise, and business partners. All such persons do want to come here.

Fourthly, there is the part refugee, part opportunist; the individual who can put up an appropriate story of maltreatment, which might well have been put by any other hundred-thousand of their country's citizens. For my part, I cannot understand why they don't qualify as refugees in their own region, and the nations surrounding their own. Are we going to take all of these?

Lastly, and there may be other categories, we have the illegal immigrant who may still be able to arrive here by many means, including just walking off at Dover, or wherever else. Well it was true once because I did it; but have not travelled this way for a while! One could walk through at Calais, and again at Dover/Folkestone. I did it more than once.

I hope I have demonstrated that immigrants are are not just one package, and one problem. Indeed, what I might have described as the most in 'demand', or worthy of entry the highly qualified; I could also remind readers, are probably more appropriately deployed, employed in their countries, even if we do need them. For forty years, individuals who train at Universities in this country, frequently stay-on, wasting their nation's investment through paying their fees. Should we be part of this?

Actually, I have no english friends; "not surprised I hear you say"; indeed my friends are Bangladeshi immigrants who arrived 17 to 20 years ago. But my loyalty to them doesn't make me blind to the issues as I perceive them and I hope I'm not treading on their toes.

We have problems with the education of our present population, both places, buildings, teachers; with transport, congestion, pollution, housing; meeting pension requirements; property values versus the actual value of bricks and mortar. In what way does importing more and more immigrants provide an answer to the needs of our population; which currently are not met?

When the first Anglo Saxons,Horsa and Hengist arrived in Britain they just killed and enslaved the local inhabitants and took all their land. Thier decendants then did this to the rest of Britain and eventually much of the world. Atleast the new immigrants to the UK are much nicer than that. Try to be positive and less racist and remember 5.5 million UK citizens live in other people's countries.

Benefits from immigration? Well that depends which side of the fence one is on: Employers, entrepreneurs, property investors and the like are pleased with an influx of a vast pool of unskilled labour. It is never the higher echelons of society who have to squash up, queue at NHS clinics, vie for low-priced accommodation etc.
What with a certain amount of subsidy given to all immigrants -certainly to asylum seekers - and the wads of cash that are sent "home" by those legally working here, I fail to see the financial gain. Sure, the money within the UK goes round faster but most of the goods are imported (including the immigrants' own foodstuffs and other household paraphernalia from the many and various countries of origin) and are often bought on credit. In some local shops the labels of cans cannot be read by English customers. Our balance of payments must have suffered because of all the extra imports and outflow of earnings.
In London the indigenous people have lost because immigrants, mostly from the EU, have taken most part-time or "odd hours" jobs traditionally done by senior citizens like me. Public housing: No-one except immigrants could gain the necessary points required for public housing allocations, so in that way they do push in. What's more, some London Boroughs "top up" the rents of short-term private accommodation for immigrants until public housing becomes available.
Apart from in the NHS, too much is spent on interpreters by local government. Council Tax must go up each time a new interpreter service is added and the situation shows no signs of abating. My London borough council's leaflets offer interpreter services in 10 languages on their leaflets - including at some hours for the parking control office!
There are too many immigrants at once from too many countries, each with cultures different from each other. One ends up resenting the lot of them, regardless of what they are or not contributing.
Again in London, one sees the true situation about who is living where whenever there is a news programme featuring a council estate in the background. One sees the true picture whenever one visits an obstetrics department in a London hospital, or passes a school gate at pupil turn-out time.
I now feel very second-class here in London.

Have we gained culturally from immigration? The answer is a definate No!
What we are doing is giving up much of our own cultural beliefs to the immigrants who are coming into OUR COUNTRY. Gone are the morning prayers that had meaning to us, and also taught values to our children. Mosques are springing up all over the country, and the Church of England is taking a back seat.

Let the immigrants become acculturated to OUR WAY OF LIFE. Obviously, their system wasn't working in their own country - Why bring it here?!

Thank you for giving me the forum to express my opinion.

I would like to know why immigration is always justified in terms of affects on GNP, when this is essentially meaningless. Even if increases in the overall size of the economy did correlate with an increase in overall social well-being (which is dubious as pollution, war, crime etc all increase GNP), that is irrelevant. What matters is if each citizen's purchasing power is, on average increasing.
Also given the govt. have no idea even roughly how many foreginers are working here, how do they expect us to believe the figures they put out about immigrants putting in more than they cost the country.
While I'm at it...why is immigration only ever justified by this government in (highly dubious) economic terms? Why is the debate never about whether it is desirable to alter the country's national character. I know plenty of people who might actually say it is, though I believe they are in the minority.

Too diverse ?

Did not Prospect magazine's chief pointy head, David Goodhart, get this ball rolling along an unusually intelligent track which identified the major fault line in New Labour with his seminal essay " Too diverse ? " published in February 04?

("Is Britain becoming too diverse to sustain mutual obligations behind a good society and the welfare state" see: www.prospect-magazine.co.uk )

Perhaps Newsnight might forego some of the usual hysterical jobsworths and invite the Grandmaster Goodhart on to raise the level of debate ?

UK to survive has to immigrate persons from overseas. In times gone by, UK lived on the resources of its colonial countries which, they do not have now. If UK stopped immigrants; they would
become bankrupt and would be beggars in the world.

From personal experience of living in an area which has seen a huge influx of EU 'migrant workers' I can say categorically it's a complete disaster.

I can't agree with the arguements saying we are benefitting economically because of the drain on public services I see first hand.

And how fair is council tax here when you and your spouse are paying the same for services as a house choc-full of 12 or more people? It's wrong, the government knows it's wrong but they're scared to do anything about it.

The main problem I have experienced is extreme anti-social behaviour. It isn't simply a small group either, this is a big and widespread problem.

What I have experienced with Eastern European immigration in the last couple of years far outweighs any problems I have seen before - the numbers coming here from the EU are crippling this country.

Hopefully this joint debate with Newsnight and Five Live will finally enable this country to have a sensible and forthright discussion about these matters without anyone who disagrees with all of this 'economic migration' being labelled right wing or a racist.

Let's get some common sense back!

I have no problem with people coming into this country legally provided that they :-

a) Work and look after themselves financially.

b) Integrate with our culture.

c) Do not refuse to obey our laws

d) Do not try to change our way of life

e) Do not attempt to impose their culture and religions upon us

It seems doubtful economics to me, accepting thousands of individuals as working migrants, earning a 'crust' in sterling £; only to have them send a proportion of it home to their native land.

This allows those countries build reserves of 'foreign' currency, which they can deploy against us in the foreign exchange markets etc. This has the effect of actually making us even poorer!

This is the exact opposite of how Governments operated fiscally in past decades, when we were not allowed to take more than, for example, £50 or was it £100 out of the country; lest we damage the balance of payments with the rest of the world!!!!!

LET THEM STAY!!!!!!!

i think gordon brown and his men should take there their time
you know hpow the uk have been exploiting the underdeveloped world
so wait and allow these immigrants to take what they can peacefully
cause if not the uk will also be loosing in another way............be ware

Was casually browsing and found disturbing fact concerning demographics of UK, the report quoted ,"In Britain, the proportion of over-60s has risen from 16 percent to 21 percent of the population, while the proportion of those under 16 has slipped from 24 percent to 20percent.

Within 20 years, demographic experts predict, one person in four will be over 60, and by 2050 the proportion will rise to 38 percent" .

This is nothin to do with the economy i guess , there will be job opportunities created but without immigration ther's just no possibility to fill in these vacancies .

Keep in mind i'm speakin here about the skilled workforce ie Engineers, doctors and other service sectors.

Definitely the destination to seek these skilled work force would be India also owing to the linguistic capability.

The solution would be to raise awareness amongst the British citizens about the true need of immigration , why it's necessary for a sustainable development. Only political debates are not gonna be enough. It will also definitely be a contribution to the already rich British culture.

Please give a thought with open mind

Raghavendra Bhat
Bangalore
India

What are the emmigration figures?

How have they changed?

What is the net effect?

What is the split between permanent and temporary immigrants?

Discussion on this subject seems to start from the premise that numbers are irrelevant. You cannot increase the amount of land or water in line with the increasing population (which is why we now have less annual rainfall per person than Syria). The important issue has long since ceased to be race, culture, or the economy. The issue is the environment, unfortunately few people
seem to understand this.

It is good that this debate is being held now.

For years no one in main-stream UK Political life it would appear, had courage enough to discuss and tackle what many ordinary people have been talking about for years.

It is only sad that it took a media bias against east Europeans presently living and working in the UK and the promise of a wave of immigrants from Romania and Bulgaria seeking access to the UK, that has brought this about.

I for one am saddened to see the almost daily reports on what problems the Poles and the Czechs, the Lithuanians and the Latvians are causing in our midst, in respect of local authority services, schools, hospitals etc., and almost never a word about the immigrants from the Middle East Asia and other parts, due to the political correctness which we have all had pushed upon us in the last years.

Recently we have read in the media, that MI5 have over 2000 people pin-pointed as potential terrorists living in our community, I feel sure that no-one from Eastern Europe or has parents or grand-parents who originate there, is on that list.

Moreover I feel if there is to be a restriction on immigaration it should begin with those seeking to come into the UK from outside of Europe. These extra-europeans all having different customs and practices from those we share with our fellow europeans and must have these accomodated in our daily lives, and unfortunately for us and the decent Asians some of these have brought with them the spectre of Islamic Terror.

Let us have this debate, let us decide the way forward for us all into the 21st. Century in a way which is of the greatest benefit to us as a nation.

Reynolds
London

Newsnight has got the central object of the debate completely wrong. Economic gains or losses arising from immigration are not THE point.

Pseudo-intellectual discussions are absurd when the participants don't commence where they should.

I would strongly suggest that before the debate, all concerned, and those wishing to participate do their homework: read Samuel P. Huntington's "The Clash of Civilizations."

It is time for the government to finally point out to the blatantly scared British public that immigration is not only good for the country but is actually vital for our economic well being. Putting aside the millions of invariably working age foreign nationals working in the jobs we won't do, what about the immigrants of past years? Those that are now our leaders and business entrepeneurs. Where will they come from if we stop immigration?
Immigration follows market forces, if there are jobs the people come, if there aren't - they don't.
What Brown and Co need to do is work out exactly how many are here and what exactly the net gain is from their presence. We can then rub that in the xenophobes faces and show them the true plusses of having high immigration.

MY SOLUTION:
1. FREE MOVEMENT OF LABOUR WITHIN THE EU
2. STRICT RESTRICTION OF NON EU IMMIGRATION TO PEOPLE ENTITLED TO POLITICAL ASYLUM ONLY AND TO HIGHLY SKILLED PEOPLE WHOM LABOUR IS NEEDED

Newsnight has got the central object of the debate completely wrong. Economic gains or losses arising from immigration are not THE point.

Pseudo-intellectual discussions are absurd when the participants don't commence where they should.

I would strongly suggest that before the debate, all concerned, and those wishing to participate do their homework: read Samuel P. Huntington's "The Clash of Civilizations."

As usual the pros and cons of the immigration issue are mixed. Some are mending our plumbing or keeping our hotels functioning, while others, or their decendants, are involved in child trafficking or have reintroduced capital punishment - by shooting each other! But if the general standard of healthcare and housing cannot be sustained at a first world country level, the politicians have got to stop ducking the issue and take a view on what is a sustainable population - there is no point people coming here if the UK loses whatever attracted them here in the first place - what can we offer? But its sad to see those NEETS standing on the sidelines on Newsnight last night.

Good afternoon:
I am a Spanish citizen from Barcelona and, in fact, this matter is also affecting our lifes here, not just in Britain. We should be aware of the phenomenon of immigration as an inevitable fact. Because of the economical inequality in the world between the East and the West, the climate change, the lack of resources ,among some reasons, people from other cultures see Britain or Spain as paradises where an opportunity will be given to them. Indeed, they do not have anything to lose.
If our public services- schools, hospitals- are overcrowded it responds to a bad government's immigration policy, immigrants can not be blamed for this.
From my point of view, there is no doubt that we need immigraton as much as they need us. Of course, some duties and rights shouldn't be forgotten. Then, Why don't we help each other but setting clear rules?
Thank you.

What appears to be missing from this debate is balance. A good number of us have chosen to take advantage of the mobility option in order to leave the UK. That does not mean that we are no longer British or that we do not care what is happening in the UK.

The debate is, however, becoming cheapened by the assumption that everyone wants to go to Britain. Immigration is not the issue because it presupposes a state of affairs which may be spurious. Migration is the issue and the freedom of the individual to live and work (within the EU at least) is central to the argument.

Before getting carried away about the burdens that migration is imposing on the social structure of the country, you may be well advised to consider the possibility that this two way traffic is productive in that the UK has the opportunity to acquire the skills that it needs while exporting skill requirements which are exhausted in the UK but much prized elsewhere.

The UK, Ireland and Sweden established the principle of the free and unconditional mobility of labour when enlargement took place. EU credibility was seriously undermined with the stupid and meaningless restrictions on Romanian and Bulgarian citizens in the latest tranche.

It is time for Europe to make up its mind. Either we enjoy the freedom we have gifted to ourselves to go where we please or we retreat into a siege mentality by which 'Johnny Foreigner' is the cause of all problems and the answer to none.

Why immigration is necessary:

1. Nature abhors a vacuum. The Northern hemisphere is being depopulated, and the Caucasian races are an endangered species.

2. The political class merely serves itself and not its responsibilities to the Nation and the people. Where else can one find a cheap slave to tidy up after one's children? Why else address the grinding poverty and sickness, the thirst and starvation, and the murder and rape of so many Africans with fervor, passion, promises, platitudes, and inaction.

3. The Nation-State is dying. Once this Frankish concept is dead, there will be no borders.

4. Democracy is dying. Has anyone out there voted for any commissar of the EC? Did you vote for anyone to run the UN? Did you vote for the EU's new constitutional treaty?

5. Western civilisation is dying. With a homicidal mania that fits the more hate-filled interpretations of the Koran, the Left Bank's policy alliance of Socialists and Islamists is destroying the values that built a Eurocentric world and substituting a new post-Frankish nightmare of Napoleonic domination and control (and a forthcoming new round of State-sponsored murders, no doubt) for the Islamist-atheist elitists.

6. The Age of Reason is dying, killed off by the likes of unimaginative Burkians like Richard Dawkins and misanthropic Animal Farm Marxists in skirt and tie. It is following the fate of the Renaissance, killed off by the Reformation and counter-Reformation, and the Enlightenment, killed off by the French reign of terror.

7. With global warming and/or the collapse of the planet's magnetic field (take your pick), only the Northern hemisphere will be cool enough and roomy enough for all those globally warmed bodies from the South. Compare the land masses of Siberia and Scandinavia, Canada and Alaska, with Antarctica, Southern Africa and the Andes of Southern South America.

8. One can think up any reason for the suicide of Europe. Immigration is just one of them.

While immigrants do make a contribution to the economy this comes at a cost especially in health, education and housing services. In my area many of the workers rebuilding a local primary school are from abroad, here it seems we do have a skills shortage that is being filled. But I do object to going to my local supermarket to find builders vans taking up three or four parking spaces each and leaving little room for anyone else. And surely, given the long-standing Polish community around here it's totally unecessary for the sudden appearance of Polish brand tinned foodstuffs on the shelves specifically for this small band of workers. This has never proved necessary before so why now? It's divisive and marks these people out as 'different' in a way that is not needed. In Britain we have a long tradition of absorbing many different peoples all adding a little something to our culture. The real problem is when certain sections of the population set themselves up as different, seeing things only through there own perpective and never allowing anything to change their way of doing things. This only breeds resentment which can so easily be avoided.

J Collier

The trouble with this country is that the powers that be are more interested in getting unsuitable young people into further education rather than creating more opportunities within the workplace.
The young people in work would not be leaving university with debts and no chance of paying them off.
This would be self creating wealth in the working sector and reducing jobs available to people from overseas .

Richard Bacon? Newsnight is planning to do a serious programme with RICHARD BACON? Have you ever listened to one of his programmes?

Well - shame it's not Jeremy. That would probably be the last we ever heard of him.

None of us, not even the Government, can be sure as to the extent of any benefit from the influx of, in particular, Eastern European immigrants. After all, the government has no idea how many immigrants of any description, there are.

My concern apart the [unknown] effect that the large number of immigrants is having on housing and public services, including health and education. What money is being spent here by these immigrants and what amount is being sent back home?

What concerns me more is the culture effect and the so-called 'swamping' effect.

I live in a seaside resort. Without any exaggeration there are occasions when the only voices I hear in the local ASDA supermarket and on the beach, are those of eastern european. This is a very recent development which does nothing to alleviate the suspicion that we are being swamped.

Of course it is good that local shops benefit, and for those coming from landlocked countries the sea is going to be a novelty. The worry is that it is too much too soon!

Without some effort being made to deal with the problem, though it is probably too late, the situation will become worse.

If the French and the Germans could impose a temporary limit, then why not us.

I think John O'Farrell's type of approach to immigration - 'look around and you will see that we are all immigrants' - is unhelpful wishful thinking not realistic anthropology.

culture must be discussed separately from 'the economy' and 'the economy' needs to be broken down by class, employment sector and region.
thank you for asking

I personally would not throw money into sectarian community-based centres etc. but I would ensure that money is put into expanding the number of outlets for creative expression of all cultures and accessible to everyone - big cities and rural hubs probably

Myth-buster 1:
Britain is not a small island. Britain is huge: not only are there are vast, unpopulated tracts, there are many towns and cities in northern England that are under-populated with stagnant local economies awaiting revitalisation. Britain is far from the most densely populated economically-developed country. Greater Tokyo, Hong Kong, New York City, Monaco and the Netherlands, for example, are more densely populated than the supposedly over-populated south east of England, and they are social and economic powerhouses for that.
Myth-buster 2:
Indigenous culture is a determinant only for people who wish to make it so. Contemporary Britain has more in common with most of the economically-developed world than it does with Britain a century ago ("The past is another country. They do things differently there.") The culture of a country is whatever the people who happen to live in that place make it to be, not what it used to be. Christianity was once alien to the islands now called Britain. Happily, few of the world's major cultures are now strangers to each other here in Britain.
Myth-buster 3:
I have neither a legal nor a moral right to determine who lives in my street. I do have a right to choose in which street I live. Many Britons choose to exercise that right by migrating to France, Spain, Italy, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the United States and so on. I am happy that people from all around the globe choose to exercise their legal right to migrate to Britain. Rather than tightened, as the current political rhetoric would have, I should prefer that legal restrictions on migration were eased.

Well, judging by the huge response we really do need a 'serious and considered' debate on Immigration.
Many of us have been trying to express our views for years: most of my comments over the past decade have not been posted by BBC and others so, for posterity, I recorded them in my memoirs 'Scott Free'.
Briefly my recorded views that respond to your Newsnight questions are as follows:-
(1)Now age 75 I spent most of my adult life working on 3rd World development projects; although aid-funded, I was always under very strict immigration control, so why are not immigrants allowed to enter and work in Britain only on specified contract periods?
(2)Must we always evaluate change on the basis of whether there is 'economic benefit'irrespective of whether it is ruining our English way of life (over-population; three million more houses;failing public services; more social problems)?
(3) Have we gained culturally from immigration? Previous legal term for immigrants was 'aliens' because that is what we have imported - alien ways of life that have alienated our English way of life e.g. Loud-hailer mosques; Forced Marriages, Honour Killings; Drug Barons; Female Genital Mutilation; Gangster Rap; Gun and Knife Crime; Cousin Marriages; to name but a few.

There are some conjectures here which I'd like to see refuted, corroborated or explained in some other way:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/2006/08/immigration_questions.html#c3907541

However, rather like the EU Reform Treaty in general, I don't see that much can now be done about this. How many British nationals are now living in Spain, France and the other 24 EU states? If we aren't reproducing above replacement level, what alternative can there be but to try to poach some people from countries outside of the EU which are reproducing above replacement level rate, although morally it seems wrong given that many such countries can't afford such a brain drain. Still, I guess that's international market forces at work?

The root 'problem' has got to be these critically low birth rates, and it's not just a European problem, its a problem for (White and East Asian) Americans too, and for other developed world countries such as Japan, Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong, Australia, New Zealand etc. It's critically low, not just low in some East European countries, so poaching from there is bad for their infrastructures. It's been getting worse over the past half century especially, and it isn't just the pill.

As I see it, the problem is not going to be helped, sadly, through this focus on equalities and human rights legislation, noble though it surely is in its intentions. In fact, it's highly politically, and no doubt even economically, incorrect, to say today, but there was a biological (reproductive fitness) wisdom to some old man's old chauvinistic ways, something we should remember perhaps when criticising Islam (and Orthodox Judaism, although not many *do* criticise the latter - are they a protected species?) for sex discrimination. Perhaps, horror of horrors, natural selection even created inequalities between the sexes precisely to avoid the adverse consequences which true equality would produce?

I simply do not feel Britain is my home anymore. What is Britain? It is often hailed as 'Multicultural', but this is a statement of fact not a way of life/culture.

As for the tolerance of intolerance flowing from British mosques, Saudi money paying for them, run by Deobandi sect... it beggars belief.

The goverment talks tough and does nothing, they do not have a clue.

It's no good arguing over whether or not Britain is a SMALL island.

Instead just look at the figures for population per unit of area.

That shows Britain is one of the most densely-populated countries in the world.

If England is taken alone the density is much greater, because very few people live in Scotland.

Everyone knows that the British people on the whole feel the country is overcrowded and we do not want millions more immigrants coming in, no matter where they come from - this is not a racist argument.

We don't want our country to be more crowded than it is. We like quite a lot of green fields separating our towns and villages, we want to enjoy the sight of unspoilt countryside and have habitat for wildlife.

The new phenomenon of people moving about Europe is changing the ethnic make-up of countries. Britons are moving in droves to Spain and France, and farther afield even to Turkey, and our country is taking in numerous Eastern Europeans.

Unless we get out of the EU this is going to continue. We are in a situation where we are unable to limit immigration from the EU. Therefore, the only thing we can do is limit immigration from elsewhere, and this is precisely what we should do. Introduce a strict system like they have in places such as Australia.

we need immigrants to enhance our population, especially when they bring positive culture differences. However, I do believe that anyone coming into this country should not receive money from our benefit system, and should contribute to any NHS or dentistry services. They should only have these benefits after having contributed to our society by working and paying into our tax system for two years or more.

I find it incredible that people talk of "English" (not British I note) culture being destroyed. With every group of immigrants that come to our country something new is added. The recent group of Polish workers has introduced me to the delights of Polish food, and how many of the posters here eat a pizza (Italian) or a curry (Indian/Pakistani)?

I was interested to read the Mayor of a Polish town interviewed during their recent General Election saying that house prices in his town were rising as economic migrants were now buying properties with a view to returning home.

What would we prefer? These people to live in poverty for the rest of their lives?

To paraphrase Dr Martin Luther King, I have a dream: a dream of a day when the Department for International Development is no longer needed, because we have created a fair and just society for everyone.

Legal migration to this country has beneficial for many hundreds of years, and continues to be.

The Labour and Liberal Democrat parties should not be afraid to stand up and shout this from the rooftops, and the Conservatives should stop pandering to the policies of the abhorrent BNP.

i am all for anyone coming here to make a better life for themselves and there families but they should want to at least learn the ways of this country other wise why come here and not break the laws of our country if they do they should be sent back to were they came from. they should not be able to jump in front of people who have been waiting for housing for years.and yes i do agree there must be limits we are only a small island put to many people here and there will be problems.

Tesco's calculate that there are actually nearer 80 million people now in Britain, which is a very small country, not the 60 million which the Government pretends, due to illegals etc.
We've run put of housing, road space, jobs for the British worker [just pay them more!], water, facilities etc.
BRITAIN IS FULL NOW, and we should stop ALL immigration apart from asylum seekers, pulling out of Europe if necessary to stop immigration, NOW.

Cynically, Europe's economy is largely (80%) Service Sector. One doesn't require very able people to push buttons, follow scripts etc as most of our intelligent behaviours have been rendered 'effective' through computerisation and other systems. Even worse, one doesn't have to pay Service Sector people much as they are easy to import from outside Europe.

Here are some relevant articles from the 54 article FCHR (2000), and remember, there are already all sorts of races and creeds in the EU, (and British does not mean White British):
http://www.eucharter.org/home.php?page_id=26
http://www.eucharter.org/home.php?page_id=28
http://www.eucharter.org/home.php?page_id=29

and 'one they did earlier' (after the 18 article ECHR (1950), and the Rome Statute of The International Criminal Court):
http://www.un.org/law/icc/statute/99_corr/cstatute.htm
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/a_ccpr.htm

Given the complexities of all this networked legislation which can fused into the 54 article FCHR, is it any wonder that this government doesn't want a referendum and asserts it will be parliamentary business?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/2007/10/tuesday_16_october_2007.html#c3462188

I suggest they want to stimulate 'debate' only as a pseudo-consultation exercise, whereby they get their message across that the treaty, like open borders is a fait accompli, and bound be EU law.

Do Londoners worry about immigrants coming into London from Scotland, Wales, Ireland and the West Country, let alone all the other regions of the UK?
I understand the tribal feelings people have about new arrivals from the EU and elsewhere but these people are human beings who bring their skills to the UK. We ought to worry more about their own nations being denuded of their talent. They earn, they pay their taxes. They balance the Brits going abroad to France, Spain and other regions of Europe and the World.

Cynically, Europe's economy is largely (80%) Service Sector. One doesn't require very able people to push buttons, follow scripts etc as most of our intelligent behaviours have been rendered 'effective' through computerisation and other systems. Even worse, one doesn't have to pay Service Sector people much as they are easy to import from outside Europe.

Here are some relevant articles from the 54 article FCHR (2000), and remember, there are already all sorts of races and creeds in the EU, (and British does not mean White British):
http://www.eucharter.org/home.php?page_id=26
http://www.eucharter.org/home.php?page_id=28
http://www.eucharter.org/home.php?page_id=29

and 'one they did earlier' (after the 18 article ECHR (1950), and the Rome Statute of The International Criminal Court):
http://www.un.org/law/icc/statute/99_corr/cstatute.htm
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/a_ccpr.htm

Given the complexities of all this networked legislation which can fused into the 54 article FCHR, is it any wonder that this government doesn't want a referendum and asserts it will be parliamentary business?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/2007/10/tuesday_16_october_2007.html#c3462188

I suggest they want to stimulate 'debate' only as a pseudo-consultation exercise, whereby they get their message across that the treaty, like open borders is a fait accompli, and we are bound by EU law.

Still, there may be trouble ahead:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/2007/10/thursday_18_october_2007.html#c3463152

The Immigration issue is soemthing Britain has always seemed scared to debate. If a politician dares to say its a bad thing the anti-racist police shoot them down. Worries over immigration are not racist when Labour party politicians collude to destroy everything that once made Britain feel home, I hear Christmas has its neck on the block in case it offends thats racist. I thankfully left the UK, my home, under Tony Blair in disgust at the way he was destroying the country. Immigration has to stop and EU working Visas need to be cancelled and most of the male population of Eastern Europe returned to their countries of origin. I used to live in Chiswick and used to see coachloads of eastern european men arriving in London, no families to settle. The UK also neeeds to look at repatriation for those immigrants that have come from countries 'in turmoil' that are no longer in turmoil. In London I used to see newly arrived africans wearing the latest street clothing looking very menacing on street corners whilst British people slept on the streets, makes you want to weep. Return Briatin to the British people, or those willing to 100% subscribe to British thinking and ideals, and let us have a feeling of pride in our country as opposed to shame. Here is a radical concept why not have British flags flying, it offends noone its Britain a country and the flag its symbol.

Posters would do well to ponder why people at the BBC should suddenly want to hold a 'debate' on immigration, knowing only too well as they do, that it is Brown's avowed intention to put his signature on the Nation's death warrant, or to use its official name, the Lisbon Treaty, come hell or high water a few weeks from now.

The most vital area of all sixty where Brown intends to cede sovereign power is IMMIGRATION. And unless the collective focus of the Electorate is kept firmly on raising the tempo to a crescendo in the DEMAND through a referendum for Brown to be stopped in his tracks, then bloggers and viewers might just as well play scrabble.

Not only that, but..

Until we hear that there has been established throughout the media and elsewhere, a totally accurate literal interpretation and unequivocal acceptance of, the precise [top dictionary] definition of the words race, racism, racialism, xenophobia etc., then comments in programmes and articles that have appeared on television and in national newspapers over the past ten years will continue to come across to viewers and readers who would agree with the foregoing, as being monotonous, meaningless, space filling indulgences, on the part of writers and presenters.

To this could be added, that ongoing calls for a national/international ‘debate’ on immigration/racism are totally without logic, because affecting the whole of humankind as it does, it would of necessity require the involvement of millions of Britons with different views and billions of people worldwide - no-one could be excluded; and even if trillions of comments could by some miracle be collated, it most certainly would not constitute a ‘debate’ by any stretch of the imagination.

The Universal Laws of Existence are beyond debate: balance, number, time and territory are primary factors within those Laws and they have determined the evolutionary processes that produced the world’s Races and brought every living thing thus far.

Efforts to coerce entire populations to abandon their socio-environmental preferences in order to accommodate the concept of multiculturalism, is contrary to those Laws as all history shows.

It is an indisputable fact that throughout the entire animal kingdom, the inherent instincts of the majority are for 'like' to gravitate towards and identify with 'like'. And if this were not so, there would be no such thing as what have come to be called ETHNIC COMMUNITIES.

The two words most hated by power-crazed Eurocrats and career politicians in Westminster as well as Brussels are 'PERSONAL PREFERENCE' but that is what all this immigration business is all about and it won't go away!

When large-scale immigration first started in the 60s/70s I embraced the concept and welcomed the fact that my daughter's best friend was a Hindu girl, believing this was the way forward for the world. 30 years on however, to my horror, I find myself cynical and disillusioned, as I never expected my own culture to be under threat, with ridiculous suggestions like abolishing Christmas. I can honestly say that my hometown, Hounslow, has been ruined by immigration. It has gone from being an area (West Middlesex) that had the secong highest exam results in the country, to being near the bottom of the league tables. The town itself is scruffy, and has no heart. Older people look genuinely bewildered by their surroundings.You can hear any one of a hundred languages being spoken except English. As a woman who fought for equality in the 60s, I find it tragic to see young women wearing headscarves and veiled. I believe that immigration has put Britain back a hundred years, with all the old battles to be fought again. The exploitation of migrant workers by paying them low wages, and the denuding of other countries of their trained workers are a national disgrace. The large number of foreign workers employed in public services is detrimental to efficiency, as they cannot use the language properly. This is particularly noticeable in hospitals, where patient care is compromised. I have experience of this with my mother's care - it is distressing when old and frail to be spoken to in a language that is unintelligible. I assure you that what I'm writing here is a summary of many conversations I've had with local people, who simply feel betrayed. I wish to stress that this is not racism (I had boyfriends of different ethnic backgrounds as a young woman), but it is the sense of having been invaded, with the Government having no mandate for the creation of a multicultural society. I agree with those who say there should be a total pause in immigration, and that the population should be allowed to drop, in the interest of preserving Britain from being covered in concrete. I also believe that all our energies and funding should be focused on educating and training the 1.5m young people who are out of work in this country. We are a rich country and should be training our own doctors and nurses, and not stealing them from the Third World. Thank you.

What has happened to the Mother of Parliaments?, once able to administer a quarter of the Globe. Now turned into a headless chicken, unable to make up its own mind on Immigration.
Immigration was once Good for this country, but not anymore, all it will do now is to add to the ever leaking purse of the country,this Leak will become a torrent because of such a large influx of Immigrants. How on earth can the country sustain this influx, now and in the future. Is not the situation of the NHS, Old Age Pensions and general underfunding of numerous services Enough!.

With all the cheap labour coming into the country both legally and illegally, compounding the fact that this goverment and those before them have allowed our manufacturing businesses to go to the wall or move to 'third world' countries depriving todays school leavers of meaningful training and jobs.
Its is like G.B. said when becoming P.M. to have every British citizen in employment, meaningful employment to put the GREAT back in Great Britain!

And I've always supported and vote Labour, but I may have to look elsewhere to give my kids a future!

Globally we read everywhere, across Europe, UK, US, Canada and Australia that third world immigration is becoming a huge budget concern, of no economical benefit to host nations, the reason many are tightening their immigration policies. Dependency on State welfare by so many unskilled immigrants is overburdening infrastructure.

Further complicating the problem are contradictory human rights and anti-descrimination laws vocalised by activists, who lobby relentlessly and ruthlessly, thereby intimidating our erstwhile politicians from implementing hard and fast common sense policies to engage decisive remedies.

I don't believe there is a single living national anywhere in the world, who would not experience a deep sense of disownment by one's own nation when we see we are the only national on board a bus or a train; when teenage nationals must obtain better results than immigrants to enter the same faculty; when nationals are not first on waiting lists for services, but second behind immigrants; when immigrants replace nationals in the workplace; when years of hard work and paying taxes are rewarded with lack of infrastructure, with poor services, overcrowded cities and overstretched utilities due to the overburden of immigration demands. Is it any wonder discontent and resentment are boiling over into racial tension?

The dismissal of Nigel Hastilow epitomises the political malady that has immobilised Ministerial courage in the West for years. It must be flushed out with the insidious propagandist tosh that spawned it, before we can rid Western society of the illogical reasoning that it is morally obliged to ruin its national economies, its standards of living and ways of life, always compelled to permit unbridled immigration of the less fortunate, at any cost. Ultimately, rather than half the world being less fortunate, the whole world must become so.

Questions for the panel:

1. How many of these third world countries provide reciprocal immigration opportunities to Westerners?

In WWI & WWII nationals with origins from enemy countries were detained for security reasons and immigration was closed to their fellow countrymen. An absolute common sense aproach. We are at war with extremist militant Islamic Fundamentalists, who fly no flag under the code of combat, yet we are nevertheless, expected to open our doors to Islamic migrants during this conflict.

2. How can our Governments be sure they can control the security risk that this presents and that it is not being exploited by Islamic terrorist interest groups??

3. As they cannot be sure, then why are our Politicians so feeble and cowardly in voicing a perfectly sustainable objection to Islamic immigration during this conflict?? The situation is no different to a situation of declared war, apart from the fact the enemy has failed to declare war and fights under no declared national ensigns;

4. Why then should an enemy which flouts the Rules of Engagement be given additional, rather than fewer diplomatic and political advantages and considerations???

I wrote at around 4.30pm Tuesday afternoon to describe how and why the three main parties are simply unable to control overall immigration to Britain in a balanced and realistic way.

However my comments were not posted. Is this what the question in comment number 97 was referring to ?

I said earlier that whilst the three parties claim to want "realistic" controls and a fair system the truth is that they are all unable to give what they earnestly claim they will do. Their utterances are hot air and rhetoric designed to get kudos.

Why is this ? It is because EU controls mean that the British Government is no more than a puppet in relation to the 75-80 of our laws which are dictated to it by the unelected bureaucrats of Brussels. Westminster has no choice or discretion and simply has to implement the measures sent to it. No amount of debate affects that situation.

And we pay around £10 billion each year inclusive of regulatory costs for that extremely doubtful privelege !!!

Only ONE political party IS able to introduce appropriate controls on a fair and balanced basis to regulate British immigration from around the World. That is the UK Independence Party (UKIP). Only this Party has as one of its main policies the withdrawal of Britain from the EU to be followed by the negotiation of trading and other international agreements/treaties on trading and other topics on a voluntary basis.

UKIP would therefore be able to introduce its policies about immigration so that we had a balanced system which was both fair and which worked properly and effectively in respect of ALL immigration to this country. Very sadly there is no other party which can genuinely offer this despite the false claims which they repeatedly make.

A fear of political-activist-minority-interest-groups' strident vocal outpourings, heavily cloaked in an over-zealously championed virtue of anti-racial descrimination and backed by strenuous pro human rights lobbying, drive the inept and blinkered political policies which have paved the way to the current immigration crises around the world.

Nigel Hastilow will one day be remembered by a different generation for his foresight and wisdom, alas when it is all too late.

Utopias can never be built, only aspired to. This is the cold reality which afflicts the dream of multi-culturalism. As desirable as zero tolerance of racial tension is, the reality check which proponents continually ignore is the nature of the beast itself. The homo sapien's intrinsically instilled survival/defence mechanism is a strong territorial instinct which automatically rejects and resists that which we do not identify with, are not familiar with or find visibly different from or foreign to ourselves. Peoples with markedly different features, skin colour, cultures, customs, religions and backgrounds are not going to be as naturally or readily accepted, compared with those which are easily identified with. The migrant likewise cannot easily and readily assimilate with peoples radically different in all these things from themselves, either. The expectation is idylically flawed, without there first occurring an evolution over generations of inter-breeding and inter-mixing of cultures and customs, the factual reality of which our very own history stands in testimony to, time and time again.

The ultimate result of this blending of cultures and customs, of blood and of values requires a certain degree of loss of one's own culture to another culture, from which a changed culture/custom or race may even evolve. The paradox however, is that for a culture to survive it must preserve its differences rather than mix or evolutionise them. Conversely, for racial tension to dispel, cultures must blend together rather than tenaciously cling to their differences. There lies the impossible and paradoxical contradiction of a tension-free, multi-cultural social order. Although a wonderful and Utopic idealogue, it is highly impractical and totally impossible to achieve, by virtue of the very nature of the beast itself - an intrinsic nature not to be denied, which is so large it is arrogant to think we are bigger than it.

I believe those who have the courage to speak out in favour of controlled immigration hold the future of their nation very dear to heart, are prepared to risk political suicide and should be lauded and feted, rather than villified and crucified. I fear however, that the insidious and invisible global propagandist forces at work will prevail, cleverly networking the pawns in their game, namely political activists and minority interest groups, all indoctrinated to believe they represent the higher moral ground. The awful truth being that they merely provide the vehicle which enables this hidden agenda to succeed, with merciless character assassinations of opponents launched at every opportunity, to serve other vested interests.

Perhaps every Minister for Immigration in the Western world should be required to study every conflict in the anals of history, which influenced a turning point, a migration, a purge, an exodus, a revolution or evolution, not to overlook internal conflicts and skirmishes between peoples of the same race, adhering to different cultural and/or religious practices. The inability of multi-cultural communities to co-exist without ultimate conflict or tension is patently clear, unless definitive borders are drawn and respected. Granted, that educated, civilised individuals are adequately accepting and tolerant, however the masses who are beyond these refinements will never reach the same level of tolerance or acceptance and it is they who agitate and who will always agitate.

Now we have non-Western immigrants accepted into Western cultures, but who have no education in the understanding of tolerance and acceptance of other cultures, yet expect our tolerance and acceptance to be extended to them. They pressure a host country to abandon tenets of its own culture to permit non-Western practices to prevail, such as cease Christian calendar celebrations in schools; insist on foreign cultural attire in schools, rather than complying with school uniformity of dress and imposing blaring unintelligible Mosque babble across the peace and tranquility of our suburbs. Christian practices and celebrations in Christian societies have been stupidly discontinued subsequent to this ethnic pressure. Would non-Western societies drop their religious celebrations for a Westerner??!!

I have seen it documented that the major English-speaking nations, USA, UK, Canada, Australia and N.Z. are no longer Christian countries. The height of this ignorance knocked me off my perch. Each of these countries' Parliaments opens with a Christian prayer, usually The Pater Noster, otherwise known as 'The Our Father', the prayer which Christ himself gave to Christianity. All of these nations observe and celebrate events and holidays on the Christian calendar, such as the crucifixion of Christ at Easter and the birth of Christ at Christmas, including Sunday, when all Christian churches are open for Services and Holy Mass to celebrate the Last Supper of Christ. Many of our customs and linguistics, reflected in Public Office and Vice Regal roles, are embodied in the Christian ethic, including the taking and swearing of Oaths on the Holy Christian Bible, etc.

I am an immigrant, I work harder than most, pay my taxes, have yet to use any of the failing public services and take great offense at the tone of this debate. A lot of your contributors may not realise how racist, inhospitable, rude and unfair they sound. My only consolation is that when all the little Hitlers get the upper hand, I will have another - still imperfect - home to which to go. It is worth remembering though, the vast number of British pensioners who burden the public services of Southern Europe, and the thousands of Brits who choose to leave Britain every year in search of more temperate climes. Would you like your family, your children, your friends, to be talked of in this way?
How are immigrants supposed to try to integrate when we face such hostility? Why should we try to integrate when we may well be sent on our way if the Daily Express, Daily Mail and the red tops make enough noise to have their way. I'd love to integrate and make this island my permanent home, but I feel I am not allowed to do so. In fact, you may find that many of us would pass even Lord Tebbit's test and love this country more so then if it were inscribed in our genes.

Africa have not benefit from immigration. Africa were treat as second class people in america

Controlled imigration is fine.Not the chaos we have now.Why are we opening our borders to countries outside the EU?

I think that Immigration is only a necessity when a Government cannot Plan,Implement,Monitor,and Achieve accurate objectives.
Our Goverment, in case it doesn't realise, is the 'BOARD' of a Company called 'U.K.' and its indigenous people are the STAFF available. When will the penny,(and hopefully not the Euro) drop that THEY are running a "Company" and not a Charity which only requires Accurate strategic plans; People who can achieve and are accountable for their actions; and good Budgetry control.
If effectively and efficiently run - We would not need the additional and uncontrollable expense of Immigration.

I have taken a great interest and have studied migration. in using this term I mean the legal side not the illegal. I believe in the theory that globalisation has influenced the influx of migrants from poorer countries. Prosperous countries offer a better way of life to migrants, and as previously stated the migrant labour force fills gaps in both the service and agricultural industries, to cut to the point they do the jobs natives do not wish to do.

When will our political powers accept that the essence of immigration to the UK must be based on an acceptance that immigrants must make their own way, not expect the country to make any special allowances for them, nor provide more by way of help in any sense than is available to British Nationals.If they are true immigrants their purpose in life is to stay here and that must require an allegiance to the UK and suppot in all ways of the nation. My personal measure of this is - If there is a war between my country of origin and the UK am I willing to fight for the UK? If the answer is 'yes' only then should I accept the option to stay.

Will we be seeing the usually hand picked contributions, as we do on Question Time?

This is really difficult.No one wants to thought of as rascist,but frankly enough is enough!I do not want a multicultural,muslim friendly agenda forced on us.I do not want this EU "we are all Europeans arn't we"thrust upon us to justify the numbers of eastern Europeans coming to us.I do not want our countryside concreted over to provide homes for migrants.Is anyone out there listening,or do we just get more of the same platitudes from the PC brigade?

It is long overdue but ( and it's a very big "but.") whether or not the public's view or the BBC view will prevail is another issue.

One has only to listen to one of their phone ins where the callers are carefully selected and those who follow a "none PC " line are cut short or shouted down to see what is likely to happen.

Implications of "Oh well, these aren't really the public's views. The BNP have instructed all their members to ring in." are more than likely.

Anyone against mass immigration will immediately be classed a racist.

The BBC doesn't speak for the nation but for Labour.

An informed debate on immigration and its effects, with experts discussing the data is long overdue. Politicians repeatedly say ‘this is an important topic, there must be a debate’, but there never is an appropriate detailed long presentation of the facts that discusses all the ramifications.

The debate on immigration needs to be on ALL aspects of immigration, not be reduced to a debate just on the alleged financial benefits to the country. In industry, when assessing the BENEFITS of something, it is common practice to also consider the COSTS. Then a judgement is made on whether benefits outweigh the costs. Who will tell us the costs of immigration? Please consider impact on national expenditure on education, health, and crime. What is the COST in terms of impact on the culture of the country?

Are we living in a country without statesmen?

Do we merely have politicians who are short-term political survivors, who have no concept of building a nation? Is multiculturalism a success anywhere? Britain has spent 400 years failing to build a multicultural success in Northern Ireland. What can we learn from the culture clash that gives us places like Kashmir, Palestine, Kosovo, Rwanda, Biafra? The United States is seen by many as a land with endemic racial hostility. We are foolish to desire to rush to create a multi-ethnic multi-cultural society, if we have no idea how to make it a safe harmonious society. Would it be better to pursue such an experiment slowly, with small numbers of immigrants?

Misinformation and the failure to address the substance of peoples concerns gives rise to rumour and suspicion which can only encourage the rise of the extreme right, to which I and many others are strongly opposed.

According to MigrationWatch, ‘New Commonwealth immigration began in the 1950s. In the 1960s acceptances for settlement were at the rate of about 75,000 a year. Racial tension led to successively tighter restrictions on immigration. By 1971 it was believed that primary immigration had been brought to an end. There has since been little public discussion of the subject. However, in practice, there was only a modest reduction in Commonwealth immigration. The average number of New Commonwealth acceptances for settlement in the 1970s was 72,000 per year, in the 1980s and early 1990s it was about 54,000 per year. Since 1996 that figure has more than doubled to 125,500 in 2000. The total since 1963 is nearly 2.5 million (some of whom, of course, will no longer be living in Britain). The ethnic minority population (largely New Commonwealth immigrants and their descendants) now accounts for 4 million (7%) of the population of England and Wales.’

People are rushing from poorer parts of the world to Britain, because they believe it will benefit them financially. They come to Britain to get a job, then decide to stay, get citizenship, have children, bring their dependant relatives to Britain. Their intention is to ‘feather their own nest’, have a better life than their own homeland would offer them, and they are happy to take advantage of Britain. We are told that many of them do the low paid jobs. If such people are doing the low paid jobs that British people wont do, then presumably they pay little tax. How can it be that their contributions (tax, N.I.) cover the cost of education and health for all their dependants they add to the population? If the NHS relies on these people to fill the low paid jobs, and their descendants aspire to become ‘professionals’ such as lawyer and doctors instead, then there will always be a gap in terms of staffing the NHS. So immigration is clearly not the answer. What is the long-term answer?

Statistics for Britain in 2001 show the ethnic make-up of Britain to be 91% White, 2.2% Black, 4.4% Asian.
The office of national statistics shows that between 2001 and 2003 the largest growth by an ethnic community was an increase of 11.1% by the Chinese ethnic group. There was an average national growth rate of 3.8% for non-White people. For White British people there was a decrease in population of 0.1%. The face and culture of Britain is changing. Is there a cost?

As for culture and religion, have there been crimes that can be associated with Islamic extremists in Britain? People don’t just bring their ability to do a job, they hold cultural values also. When allowing immigration, should politicians not also consider the culture that the prospective new residents hold dear. Is there evidence that the ethnic minorities are involved in unsavoury acts such as honour killings, forced marriages, grooming white girls for prostitution, drug dealing, and Islamic terrorism?
Who will speak of the problems associated with immigration? Who will discuss whether speed of change can make people uncomfortable with the ‘new society’ they find themselves drifting into, and have little say in shaping?

The face of Britain is changing, but nobody ever mentions it. We have benefited from many experts such as Sir Magdi Yacoub, the heart surgeon. Many people in Britain have colleagues and friends who are not white, and who they hold in very high esteem and are pleased to count among their friends. This does not however mean they want to be the only white person left in their evolving neighbourhood. It is the scale of change and the pace of change that worries people.

Forced marriages, honour killings, imposed Sharia law, drug related crime, are not the traditions we praise as the British way. A liberal democracy, with religious freedom, treating all fairly and equally under the law is the historic British way.

How do citizens preserve Britain as Britain without being accused of racism?

I recall Barbara Roche, the Immigration Minister for the Labour government in 2000, telling us that Labour was trying to control immigration, and we should be reassured. It was only when she left office that she stated on a radio program that in her view Britain needs large numbers of Black people as immigrants, and she was fully in support of it. This is one example of why people over time learn to distrust the word of the politicians.

Central and local government have no accurate knowledge of the numbers arriving (or leaving and so any general pronouncement about the benefits or costs to UK of immigration is not the whole truth but only a local or partisan oview. The same can be said about our membership of the EU.
We need a thorough examination of both subjects (and no doubt many others) by independant and impartial
bodies that can influence government.
Referendas anyone?
Regards

Thanks Newsnight for raising this for debate.

While the impact of increased population will have major implications on the demand for housing, roads, health, education, services, etc, it is not featuring widely in politically debate.

It does not matter what creed, religion or background people are coming from to live in the UK - it is more the actual number of people and what their requirements will be which will result in major changes in the UK.

Is it possible for the UK to accommodate such an increase in population, 10million by 2050; with the attendant increasing land take, energy consumption, demand for services and additional food production, without adverse environmental impact.

These will drive much more significant changes to the way we live yet most of the politicans appear completely unaware of these consequences. The current proposals in the Queen's Speech, relating to tax, education, health provision, etc seem somewhat non sequita without factoring in the requirements for major population expansion.

I love multicultral, multifaith, multiethnic Britain. I find multilingual Britain unacceptable. Ever since the Tower of Babel we should know that we need a common language to make a country function.
Every new migrant should have to pass a test in written & spoken English or loose the right to remain.

We have a responsiblity to welcome newcommers. They have a responsibility to learn the basics of the host community/culture. Every immigrant should have to partake in a programme to help them understand the host culture and how an ancient demoractic country functions. They need to know what rights and responsilities are required to make such a state work to everyone's benefit.

Rev Ray Lyons

I think people can get carried away with the 'benefits' of mass immigration - such as tax revenues etc.

Not only are the benefits hotly contested, they have to set against the fact that Labour have no handle on the amount of immigrants who have arrived in the last 10 years. Thus we are only now beginning to see the net drain on countrywide resources.

I'm also not sure it is wise to simply view Great Britain as a giant corporation where our only concern is the Treasury. We should be a country first... and a company second.

I fear we're failing on the former of those ambitions.

It will be interesting to see whom the BBC has invited as their studio guests. Will the BBC’s pro-multicultural pro-islamic bias be’ informing’ the licence fee-paying public unchallenged?

Every human being has the right to ambition. Immigrants aren't criminals. Those legal ones; of which constitute the vast majority, pay their taxes and should be allowed to spend their money howsoever they wish. I found it distressing to scroll down the page to find so few welcoming immigration. There is NO evidence to suggest it harms our economy, and yet Derek Twigg MP spoke to me just the other day of how a labour government had 'clamped-down' on asylum, by refusing more applicants than the Tories did! (And despite engaging in a war that has led to millions of refugees). Why is every party so terrified to embrace immigration? It was ok for the Europeans to do it in the past and remains ok for the British to migrate to Spain, yet it's not ok for Eastern Europeans and people from the Third world? Few complain about the number of European- origin South Africans in this country, employed in high-salaried, competitive jobs. The opinions of most of my fellow students; we don't care, if they want a job here, let them, they're not inferior to us. Oh... and boycott the Daily Mail.

The International Passenger Survey (IPS) and the Labour Force Survey (LFS) are a) voluntary and b) count on respondents telling the truth.

The IPS covers sea, air and rail ports, is suspended at night and covers 0.2% (1 in 500) of the 66 odd million UK residents' visits abroad and 30 odd million visits to the UK each year. It has a refusal rate of between 17-20% (the LFS is best left out of this if one is no great fan of surveys).

Leaving aside the fact that we know that the government has problems with accurate estimates of absolute numbers, looking at Table 2.5 page 10 '38/87' of the first link below which is the most recent ONS International Migration report which only goes up to 2005 alas, but shows inflows and outflows by citizenship/country of birth, note that far more EU A8 (East European) citizens stay than leave, BUT that this is also the case for New Commonwealth and Other Foreign Countries. The latter is the one to watch as they have higher birth rates and are even less likely to ever return (forget about Old Commonwealth as they balance out).

On the basis of a voluntary, 0.2% survey with a 17-20% refusal rate (which is bound to undercount the magnitude and the true reasons for migration as it just asks, without proof, what people intend to do), one can see that East Europeans stay, as do the S Asians and Africans (who, apart form the Indians/Chinese) tend to fall into the bottom of the skills league table according our own DfES data as well as international research on educability). A points system may work on the extra-EU migrants, but it will be illegal for EU migrants surely, and it may even be illegal discrimination for extra EU migrants in terms of UN conventions?

If one compares the proportion of the 2005 inflow respondents giving 'formal study' (page 11 '39/87' table 2.6) it's 24% (136,000/565,000) whilst another 43% (244,000) gave 'definite job/looking for work'. But for those leaving the UK (and about 52% of that 380,000 are UK nationals) only 4% (16,000/380,000) gave 'formal study', and 46% (176,000/380,000) 'definite job/looking for work'.

So, it's just as well that the UK is sending over 40% (and Brown wants it to be 50%) of its population into further/higher education is it not? Otherwise people might complain that the explanations given for coming to the UK look a mite suspect.

Apart from keeping youth off the streets a bit longer during most high risk criminogenic years (sadly, it's the wrong half), this Lysenkoist 'education, education, education' mantra of New Labour is a rather convenient veil for all sorts of sins is it not?

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_transport/traveltrends2005.pdf
Page xx (10 of 87) gives the rank orderings by country:
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_population/MN_no32.pdf
ID Cards:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/04/brown_scrap_idcards_claim/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/04/brown_scrap_idcards_claim/comments/

On a lighter (?) note on an earlier mentioned concern about the consequences of positive discrimination, a BBC interview thismorning featured the case of a Sikh school girl appealing against her exclusion for refusing to take off her bangle (one of the Sikh five Ks). Allegedly, some Sikhs have also appealed against the proscription of carrying knives through airport security on the grounds that preventing them from carrying their their ceremonial daggers is in breach of the 1976 Race Relations Act....

With the ratification of the EU Reform Treaty and its more comprehensive FCHR, the 'mind' boggles.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/7081573.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/sikhism/customs/fiveks.shtml

The International Passenger Survey (IPS) and the Labour Force Survey (LFS) are a) voluntary and b) count on respondents telling the truth.

The IPS covers sea, air and rail ports, is suspended at night and covers 0.2% (1 in 500) of the 66 odd million UK residents' visits abroad and 30 odd million visits to the UK each year. It has a refusal rate of between 17-20% (the LFS is best left out of this if one is no great fan of surveys).

Leaving aside the fact that we know that the government has problems with accurate estimates of absolute numbers, looking at Table 2.5 page 10 '38/87' of the first link below which is the most recent ONS International Migration report which only goes up to 2005 alas, but shows inflows and outflows by citizenship/country of birth, note that far more EU A8 (East European) citizens stay than leave, BUT that this is also the case for New Commonwealth and Other Foreign Countries. The latter is the one to watch as they have higher birth rates and are even less likely to ever return (forget about Old Commonwealth as they balance out).

On the basis of a voluntary, 0.2% survey with a 17-20% refusal rate (which is bound to undercount the magnitude and the true reasons for migration as it just asks, without proof, what people intend to do), one can see that East Europeans stay/cumulate over time, as do the S Asians and Africans (who, apart form the Indians/Chinese) tend to fall into the bottom of the skills league table according our own DfES data as well as international research on educability). A points system may work on the extra-EU migrants, but it will be illegal for EU migrants surely, and it may even be illegal discrimination for extra EU migrants in terms of UN conventions?

If one compares the proportion of the 2005 inflow respondents giving 'formal study' (page 11 '39/87' table 2.6) it's 24% (136,000/565,000) whilst another 43% (244,000) gave 'definite job/looking for work'. But for those leaving the UK (and about 52% of that 380,000 are UK nationals) only 4% (16,000/380,000) gave 'formal study', and 46% (176,000/380,000) 'definite job/looking for work'.

So, it's just as well that the UK is sending over 40% (and Brown wants it to be 50%) of its population into further/higher education is it not? Otherwise people might complain that the explanations given for coming to the UK look a mite suspect.

Apart from keeping youth off the streets a bit longer during most high risk criminogenic years (sadly, it's the wrong half), this Lysenkoist 'education, education, education' mantra of New Labour is a rather convenient veil for all sorts of sins is it not?

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_transport/traveltrends2005.pdf
Page xx (10 of 87) gives the rank orderings by country:
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_population/MN_no32.pdf
ID Cards:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/04/brown_scrap_idcards_claim/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/04/brown_scrap_idcards_claim/comments/

On a lighter (?) note on an earlier mentioned concern about the consequences of positive discrimination, a BBC interview this morning featured the case of a Sikh school girl appealing against her exclusion for refusing to take off her bangle (one of the Sikh five Ks). Allegedly, some Sikhs have also appealed against the proscription of carrying knives through airport security on the grounds that preventing them from carrying their ceremonial daggers is in breach of the 1976 Race Relations Act....

With the ratification of the EU Reform Treaty and its more comprehensive FCHR, the 'mind' boggles.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/7081573.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/sikhism/customs/fiveks.shtml

I have lived in London all my life and i can say that we have more people than our fledging infrastructure can hold.

Our hospitals, schools and housing just cannot handle the sudden massive influx of people that we have here.

Re#101 above.

Sweeping generalisations don't ring true!

'I work harder than most'? From where do you obtain the statistics which show what effort goes into the work of 'most' and what is 'most' in terms of numbers? Also, do you mean most immigrants, most indegenes or both?

Has your decision not to use 'failimg public services' arisen because you dislike or mistrust them, or because so far it has not been necessary for you to do so?

The tone of the 'debate' automatically embraces your own contribution.

You provide yet a further illustration of the ABUSE of the term 'racist'. As an individual you do not constitute a 'Race' and because posters therefore don't know to which race you belong, by what logic do you assume that they hold an 'irrational belief' or are 'advocating' even, that your 'Race' is inferior to another.

To whom are you referring as 'Little Hitlers'?...And Why?

The other 'imperfect home to go to' that you mention obviously hasn't lost its appeal entirely, so you're fortunate inasmuch as the choice of where to live is still yours.

We need to ask what we want immigration for. When is it good, when is it bad? A large number of Brits - and, no, I don't just mean 10th generation whites- are sick of seeing the country treated as a hotel rather than a home.

We don't just want an immigration policy simply shaped by the statistics of later day Mr Gradgrinds telling us we are a few million better off here or there. We want a country at ease with itself, with a sense of purpose, community and solidarity. Just as that means a society in which people aren't judged on the colour of the skin, it also means a people who share a story.

Immigration needs to be framed in such a way that it actively encourages meaningful exchanges and interaction rather than establishing a new segregated working class. That means less immigration from groups who have low rates of marriage and socialising with the wider population, less immigration from those with low skills and those who don't speak English.

Immigration should not unduly impact poorer sections of society. At the moment the middle classes are benefitting from cheap labour whilst the working classes are suffering from wage deflation and service competition.

Numbers also need to be cut to facilitate integration. High rates of immigration encourage the formation of parallel communities. This is alienating to all concerned, and undermines efforts to increase social solidarity.

A prime lesson from the whole terror chapter is that we need to be able to present a clear idea of who we are. Immigration in no way makes that an impossible task but it needs to be migration into our society as well as our state. No more airport lounge Britain.

I like to think that I am a very open minded person who recognises that (1) historically, the whole of the UK is based on immigration from across Europe and further afield and (2) having lived in London for over 2 years, there's always going to be a very transient 'foreign' population in any major capital city. I also sccept that there's a hard-nosed economic case that can be made for many aspects of recent immigration levels. I have good friends locally from places such as Poland, Hungary and Lithuania. However, what worries me greatly (based on first hand experience) is the true cost/benefit ratio of current levels of immigration. Ok, accept the 'hard-nosed economic' benefits' (as I describe them) - jobs UK nationals don't want, carried out by immigrants who work hard and at rates which enable businesses to run profitably etc, etc. However, has anyone got a real handle on the less tangible impact of current levels of immigration in terms of the indigenous population? Not always rational and pandering to underlying racist tendencies - I accept. But I hear so many grumbles from local UK nationals based on GP waiting rooms being full of Eastern Europeans, disregard for UK driving laws, unacceptable levels of domestic violence, drunken behaviour, distortion of the rented housing market because of homes in multiple occupation, a cash economy to avoid taxation and, more recently, abuse of the UK benefits system. For me, the last straw was an Eastern European friend announcing to me without apology her 'grand plan' to get pregnant within 18 months in order to secure a Council house/flat and benefits. It was mentioned so matter of fact, without any shame and as if that was her God-given right. I automatically thought of my kids and their impending struggle to get anywhere near the property market, even in its widest sense. What value - financial or qualitative - can you attach to this massive downside to this aspect of immigration? What damage is being done to UK national pride and identity? What damage to UK social cohesion? In what other forms will these sorts of problems manifest themselves - and when? Can someone far more intelligent than I carry out some form of analysis please so that we can have a FULL and PROPER debate on the whole immigration issue? Simple really but very stark.

As an employer in the hospitality industry I am one of the many who appreciate the influx of labour from Europe.

An argument I have yet to hear relates to the situation before the recent influx. A few years ago, how many times did you hear "I just can't get the staff". In other words there was a hell of a gap to fill before we got to the situation today where immigration is impacting job opportunities for locals. We pay the same to immigrants as UK people and train English language skills where necessary. The impact on Social Services is minimal as the majority are young, single, fit people who want to work and do not see their long-term future in the UK. So keep them coming and you'll continue to see the quality of your service levels go up and up!

Population growth is the problem in my opinion, not necessarily the nationalities from which it is drawn.

We need to understand that Britain has a carrying capacity, an ideal limit to its population density - which is already met in my opinion in most regions.

As we exceed this ideal population size (which probably happened decades back in my opinion), there are real costs for everyone in terms of the quality of life, threats to the environment, pollution, urban-sprawl, overloaded infrastructure, availability of water, vehicle emissions, inaedquate supply of housing etc etc.

So, if we all lose from this why does it happen? So business can use cheap labour and make bigger profits (and business and the wealthy are drivers for what happens here irrespective of who else benefits), and the economy grows (good for politicians). Also we can consume more as a nation, and pay cheaper prices in some cases - although our greed usually ends up with importing goods from overseas instead, so are these materialistic arguments for immigration worthwhile?.

At present mass immigration is reversing most of the positive social changes we have striven for (and at huge cost) since the second world war. We are now importing poverty, homelessness, illness, crime, disorder and illiteracy on a huge scale - just when we thought we had started to tackle these issues in post-Thatcher Britain. We have enough of these social problems to overcome from our own people without immigration!!

Skilled migrants = good, Others = Bad. Irrespective of social or ethnic origin. I wouldnt expect to be able to emigrate to a better country (New Zealand, Canada, etc etc) if i was unskilled and i would expect my country to follow the lead of nations which maintain a superior quality of life for their citizens.

Have we benefitted from imigration? Probably, in the short term by allowing people of current working age to enter, but to continue this supposed benefit by the same method will mean having to allow an exponential increase in imigrants year on year - To what end?

I forget so please remind me!

When did we actually vote on this country becoming a multi-cultural heaven?

When did we say at the polling stations that we were prepared to relegate our Nation to sharing our own & only country with all-comers & boy do they pile in!!!

Who else worldwide is joining in with this lunacy?

Get the idle 'economically inactives' of their lazy backsides & presto! Jobs filled & no more 3 million houses needed!

It is said immigration is necessary for growth. But if the population is increasing by 1% per annum (500,000+ from E Europe alone), then a more useful figure is growth-per-capita. If growth itself is 2.5%, then growth-per-capita - the rise the average British person actually sees - is a mere 1.5%
This is no better than the mid 1990s, when immigration was controlled and moderate. The economic gain has been negligible.
When one adds in the social costs, the catastrophic increase in crime, the terror threat, overcrowding, the breakdown of our inner cities, schools unable to cope, then the net effect is disastrous.
As with the euro, something so fundamenal must require the direct consent of the British people. That politicians have allowed massive immigration without it is wrong, wrong, wrong.
Above all what breaks the heart is that my country becomes less and less recognisable as England.

Employers simply want cheap immigrant labour to increase their profits. Decide how many immigrants we will take next year. Issue licences for that number and let these employers bid for the licences in an open market. This would cover the numerous other costs of immigrants to the host community. The wealth of a country is measured by its GDP/capita. Immigration drives down wages for the already low paid and reduces GDP/capita. Economic growth is a false god. We need a country with fewer people with a better quality of life for all. Economic statistics don't measure quality of life. Immigration reduces the overall quality of life for the host population by creating more over-crowding in our already densely populated island. Only parts of Holland and Java are more densely populated than the UK.

A specialised crime unit in London which deals with credit card fraud and theft, says 85% of those committing this crime in London are Romanians. That was a report by the BBC's Rageh Omah for another channel. We have 11,000 foreign nationals in our jails who shouldn't be there, and if they'd all be kicked out we wouldn't have a prison crisis; every area of this country is crying out for more funding because they can't cope with the rate and number of immigrants they are having to put up with; police commissioners of almost every region are worried about the rise of crime committed by foreigners in their district. I could go on. All those in favour of mass immigration just love to ignore any of the downsides to it, and yes, there are downsides. It's a fact. If this unsustainable level of immigration is soley for the purpose of giving us strawberries all year round, we can do without it, thank you.

Many years ago I pointed out to the then Foreign Secretary Douglas Hurd that "free movement of people" with the EU was born of a political aim, not an economic one.

The whole purpose (whether in the Eu or the world in general)of the free movement of CAPITAL and even industrial expertise is so that mass migration becomes unnecessary. The Movement of capital allows people to remain in their cultural and lingustitic homes where migrant capital creates jobs.

Hurd confessed that he had "never heard that concept before"!!! although it is an elementary idea in political economy.

Both EU and non EU countries have treated migrants as economic cannon fodder - with disastrous results both for overcrowded Britain and for the countries from which economic migrants are fleeing.

Bulgarian, Polish and Czech graduates are working as unskilled Labour in London while the UK Welfare system makes it unprofiable for British Labout to do those jobs.

During the run up to the previous election, David Cameron and the tories made a huge hoo-haa about immigration policies. They at the time did not distinguish between assylum and immigration which obviously must have meant black immigrants. Cunningly Mr. Blair left them alone and they ended up drowning in their own wave. The greatest fear was that 'these immigrants are after benefits and a comfortable life'. Come the expansion of the EU we are hearing a different song now. Assylum is good but there is too much immigration. I certainly agree that the resources of the island can only cope with so much at any one time. But i think that's is more the government's problem. For example, after re-negotiating the doctors' contracts, doctors can now work less hours for more pay. Coupled by closing hospitals down following tirade after tirade of 'public consultations', had not as many immigrants come, there would still have been a pressure on services. Whilst polititians are jostling about with figures and data collection methodology, i'd like them to remember this in their policy making. Current EU rules are leaning more and more against the black african migrant. No one waves subsidies at african farmers in times of crisis. Social economy is reaching feverish pitch. If i may expound on the term social economy in this context, it is whereby people have found work in western countries, moved there, integrated and have sent money back to their loved ones. This money is free of the bottomless greedy pockets of the politicians. Surely, is there a better way to help in the fight against poverty than cutting out the greedy 'middle men?'.

i read many comment but we all just speak about people coming in with an EU passport ,we forget that we have many people class as "aliens " in this country ,when we will be able to know how many those are in we could for once know what to do
but for now we have or give just figure that we have
there are more out there

Panalists,
Immigration! is again back in the media and this time with a alot of negativity. When will this name calling of people as "immigrants" ever stop? It really upsets me when the British call other people people who have either been born here or grown up from here as immigrants. Social and cultural cohesion should instead be encouraged.

Secondly, the notion that the social services are bursting to capacity is a total lie and unfounded. These people (immigrants)are hardworking and rarely use the social services as they are usually fit, young and contribute a lot to the British economy without taking out much from the system.

If looking for a solution, then put a complete ban on all people coming here either to study, visit and working here.

I get fed up with being told I'm bad for driving a car and causing cogestion when the government has cheerfully increased that congestion by increasing the population so dramatically.
I get fed up being told we need to build new houses on greenfield sites and no doubt AONBs 'for first time buyers' when the government is inflicting so many new 'first time buyers' upon us.
I get fed up of inadequate and overcrowded public transport and a government who have 'intergrated' nothing.
AW

When, and by whom, were the British public asked if they wanted mass immigration?

With around 64 million people (no one knows the real figure) already fighting for hospital places, schools, houses and transport we need more immigration like a hole in the head. Furthermore we already have more than enough people, if properly trained, to fill all job vacancies.

Finally, as is shown daily on our TVs, there is an unfortunate amount of drugs, gun and knife crime perpetrated by immigrants. This may be part of their culture but it is certainly not ours.

Our British culture is genuinely under attack.

Why people are concentrating on non-eu immigration when the biggest influx is from EU. When people enter from outside EU, they are controlled and monitered. But no such control within EU. Millions are still pouring in from the eastern europe! Has the gov got any idea how to tackle this uncontroll immigration??

You can imagine what Africa looks like! Whats happened is the effect of migration.Take a little scene to the Pearl of Africa-Uganda,so solemn indeed.Atleast most of the average percentage are now educated and where do they end up,swallowed by migration.Some after studies there is little hope and see the future as fatal and futile thus migration is the only notion thought about but ponder over t5he jobs they do,cozy jobs like a teacher being a sweeper,life is a struggle where few have passion.Its so incredibble when once i had on BBC Radio that most migrants especially in Africa are 3 times qualified than the real citizens in Britain,what a shudder!Its high time we came and developed our own other no matter what because no water has already penetrated through the cracks thus increasing underdevelopment and unfair treatment of the migrants like France,the discrimination/segregation of Spain,prejudice that exists still in America,Think Thrice before the next incident!!!!

There's only one reason why past governments for decades have encouraged mass immigration-cheap labour!......an anti-inflationary policy so Britain can compete abroad.
I laughed the other day when a black spokesman on immigration for some government quango expressed his concern over the white east-european influx into Britain.He said "It( his concern) is not about racism or skin colour" I wanted to inform him it NEVER has been with the average Brit. It's simply a deep fear of us losing our national identity! Plus, quality of life is directly proportional to personal space and infrastructure. We can't cope with the numbers.

Please why will there be no guest speakers on the programme from the fourth largest party in the country UKIP which is the only political party which was founded with the sole purpose of taking Britain out of the EU and restoring democracy and sovereignty to the British people? None of the three main parties want to take Britain out of the EU, so it is going to be a one-sided, undemocratic debate. Surely this is yet again, censorship by exclusion.

Britain has an ageing population and immigration is needed to pay the pensions.

Immigrants don't stay young forever, they get old too and will need pensions themselves. Who's going to pay for the pensions of the immigrants? Todays immigrant is tomorrow's pensioner. Presumably, the government will say more immigration will be required to pay for the pensions of todays immigrants in years to come. It's like a pyramid scheme that requires a constantly expanding number of people at the bottom. Problem is that there isn't a constantly expanding amount of space to put them in and Britain is a small and densely populated island. It is also bad for the environment. We should stop relying on immigration as a short term fix for a long term problem.

Population Density per sq/km:

Palestinian territories 667
South Korea 480
Netherlands 392
*England * 383
India 336
Japan 339
Israel 302
Germany 232
Italy 193
Wales 142
People's Republic of China 137
Poland 123
France 110
Turkey 93
Spain 89
Scotland 65
Republic of Ireland 59
United States 31
New Zealand 15
Canada 3.2
Australia 2.6
Mongolia 1.7

People keep mentioning economics when talking about immigration, but the whole point of economics is to improve quality of life. If you pursue economics so vigorously to the detriment of your quality of life, then what's the point?

If you have a cup of tea you might decide to put a spoonful of sugar in. You might put 2, 3 or 4 in. It would still be a cup of tea. It might taste better. But what if you put 20 or 50 or 100 spoons of sugar in? Most of tea would be pushed out and you would be left with a cup of sugar and a big mess on the floor.
It is not a question of do you like sugar or is sugar a good thing it is a question of too much sugar !

Until we leave the EU we have no choice about immigration, its costs or its consequences, and this is all a complete waste of time.

So the BBC runs a debate on immigration. That'll be objective then (lol).

Hardworking people have money, why should all the britians that collect money from job centre have the same quality of life as i do- working 40+ hours a week?????? If they are too lazy to go out and find a job, or too proud to do certain jobs, then give it to ANYBODY from ANYWHERE to do it, if they are willing to work to improve their way of life. So cut back on the job centre handouts and the lazy ones will get off their backsides and get a job.

I have struggled all my life with my own conscience. Its important to me that I dont harbour feelings that I cant talk about or base my vote on. I grew up amongst mixed attitudes, at home I was shocked by my family's white, northern opinions on race, and out in the world I was shocked to be called a racist by people who had a pre-configured determination to label someone that way. but I have no such fear in saying, immigration here is haemhorraging, the change in society's compostition is too quick, its not being monitored, and the effects dont have to be hyped by a newspaper to be noticed by any UK citizen of any origin.

This is such a big and important issue for the people in Britain.

It is not helped by the politicians who do not tell it as it is. They are disingenous at best and lie at worst.

Until they are open and honest and stop hiding behind PC we will NEVER sort the problem and rise to the challenges that immigration represents.

I recently retired as a Police Sergeant, I wrote direct to the Deputy Chief Constable of Surrey Police following the 9/11 attacks. I complained that I and my fellow custody sergeants had been warning since 1996 that failure to fingerprint and confirm identity of those entering the Uk with no documents meant there was a serious and credible risk of infiltration by militants and criminal gangs.For years nothings was done and then as predicted, 9/11 and 7/7 terrorist attacks occurred.The Home Office was directly to blame, and yet they all retired and went onto further their careers.Everyone knew they were unfit for purpose, so how do they sleep at night? I hope they sleep soundly, I do not.

Why do we have to take all these immigrants when we have 5 million unemployed?Why have we now got a shortage of housing,so we will have to start building on green belt land just to house foriegn workers doing jobs that our own people can do?Answer-Because a handful of rich business men are making vast profits by exploiting foriegn workers.We have longer waiting lists on the national health and more money from the tax-payer has to be put in,more crowded roads another increase in council tax.So the average member of the public has a decrease in service,an increase in tax and now our beautiful countryside is going to be next to suffer.We also have an increase in crime as nobody is checked.Some of the people from these countries could have murdered dozens of people and we would never know.Also our british culture is dissappearing and becoming fragmented with people(particularly muslims)who don't intergrate with us native british.It is too late now to do anything about this except what alot of us who feel like aliens in are own country are doing...Abandon ship!

what irritates me as a self employed communications enginner, having to endure a wage drop(due to a massive Eastern Europeans, flooding the employment market)and a fuel price hikes, that I can't pass onto customers.
But especially the BBC in particular and not so much other media going on about John Charles Demenezies.
He was an illegal immigrant, once legal until his work visa had expired!
How many more illegals are working here evading tax and costing the honest tax paying burdened public.
I struggle to find work, because I was born in the U.K. and I'm to expensive to employ, when you can get two poles for the price of an English worker.
Companies don't want to employ us British nationals as were to expensive, it's a form of racism from employers in our own country and it's high time this form of racsim is ended.
British tradesmen are not being allowed to play on a level playing field and if it continues I'm taking my experience and skills to another country.

I am very very concerned about this countries attitude to immigration. In being so politically correct we are in danger of losing all sense of being british. Sensible measures should have been put in place a long time ago. I also agree with the comment made by Enoch Powell 40yrs ago, and applaud the MP for having the courage to stand up to endorse Powells comments. The british are losing or have lost all faith in what the goverment is telling its people there are so many distortions and lies that evan non politically minded people are starting to wake up to what is going on, I have lived and worked in many different cultures overseas and they would not tolerate what we have to in this country. The goverment has to stop this rot before it stops them.

My question to the panel would be, is it not true that the reason for the influx of immigrates is because there are jobs that the local people just do not want to do, that there are other jobs where the locals priced themselves out of the market. Even the leader of the Independence Party employed Polish workers to do up his house and said they were great workers who worked 10 hours a day, seven days aweek. So it is just market forces in play of supply of cheap and willing labour and demand for their skills at the right price.

Well I sometimes wonder when the government say they don't know the number of illegal immigrant in this country, when it is obvious to inland revenue that all illegal immigrant work and pay tax. Come to think of it, the department of work and pension know that they do receive taxes from NI number they never issued in the first place and keep the money. Secondly, if the government do not want immigrant to come and work in Britain why give them working visa and at thesame time moan about it? It is time we stop chasing shadows.

this country was and still is made up of immigrants coming in and adding too our"culture". but when then population on mass is saying enough the politicians need to listen, this is not because of the colour of a persons skin or culture it is simply that "the house is full" and anyone with an ounce of common sense should see that if the situation does not change, then we will be inviting at best a resentment of "all" immigrants, nobody in that situation will win, all we will get is a divided population and those who have settled in this country and maybe in the fourth, fifth,or sixth generation who have indeed become british may feel the brunt of this, and that would include many who think they are british but when they look back as is possible with the use of i.t find they are indeed of german, french, polish, dutch, jewish, irish,danish etc extraction. the only reasonble thing to do is say "enough" restrict the immigration through quota and qualifications on a as when needed basis, this i believe cannot be deemed as "racist" or other, this is simple common sense.

I am an imigrant to the UK. I studied at University and upon graduating found a job. I now own property and have done well. I have advantage of speaking English but I'm also disabled. I rent to imigrants in some of my property. They are the hardest working people in this country, often working two jobs. My point is we need to separate hard working people from those who want to have benefits handed to them, regardless of where they are from. Come to the UK to work hard better your lot in life. We should look at the British people who wont work too.

dear sir having observed sometimes from a distancf having lived in africa for 15years i find that on my return in 1997 a country that has lost its way no proper leadership or direction everything allowed to drift along we knew even as ordinary people that the will of the majority would not prevail because the people at the top did not want our society to be the same they decided that mass ccultural integrattion was the answer so the anti -establishment anti english and liberal left wing heros went to work and have set about turning this wonderful cuontry into a glorious mess from which we may never recover we need to do what italy france germany australia and all sensible governments do get rid of all foriegn nationals who wish to harm us no appeal process just ship them out any british born citiz ens involved i terrorism or major crime deported to a country of their choice all cultures that do not want to live by our laws and rules have got an alternative leave

Britain is the fourth most densely populated country on the planet.

7 out of 10 Britons feel the UK is overcrowded.

And what are we doing about this? Why, rapidly expanding our population of course!

What more needs to be said about immigration?

This government is beyond contempt in its incompetence, shortsightedness, and stubborn refusal to listen to the people it is supposed to be representing.

I am British with an American wife, before my wife can become a british citizen, she must take a test, and get the appropriate test result before she is able to take up residency in the UK. To do this we have to pay a fee for the examination, and pay an additional fee to get the relavent entry on her Visa, if she passes the examination and we pay the fee's she must reside here another 2 years before she can get a british passport,spending no more than 2 months outside the country. On invesigating how we go about this process, we learned that someone who does not speak or write English can go to a free class in a language they understand and get instruction on the examination and get a certificate for the class at the end of the class, and then does not have to sit the examination. My wife is well Educated and graduated from Collage in America she writes it and has gone as far as relearning herself some of the different spelling between American and british spelling. Some of the test questions in the britishness Examination I could not answer. I just wish some of these so called policy makers could see how the practical side of there efforts will work and just simplify the whole process rather than drafting out a road to confusion and jobs for the boys. I did'nt believe how much they are now charging a taxpayer for the last forty odd years, to have his wife able to live with him in his own home.

firstly ,why do you find it neccessary to censor comments in what we refer to as a democracy?. why should any foreigner, man woman or child,black white brown or yellow ,be given priority housing over the indigenous population,because in the area where i live, this is exactly what is happening causing deep resentment amongst local people. the same applies to certain types of employment,which is being virtually dominated by foreigners at the expense again of local people. politicians ,unfortunately,are in total denial of these facts,as are influential people in the media and public life in general,who constantly tell us,that foreign workers are doing the jobs which nobody else will do. nothing could be further from the truth,and until our political masters and the politically correct mob are forced into dealing with the reality of immigration unchecked,the situation will continue to put pressure on every aspect of our day to day lives.

This country is overcrowded and nothing short of stopping all immigration for several years with a strict tarriff system after that will constitute a significant measure to solve the problem.

Immigration should be allowed but it should be under control. Only refugees truely in fear of their lives and economic migrants who can demonstrate that they have skill levels above the national average; which is the only true way of increasing the country's GDP.
Stopping E European cheap labour will raise minimum wage for menial jobs and also help reduce Buy to Let demand taking up new build; and pushing up house prices.
Denzil [post 144]has some interesting population densities. Notice the anomaly of the Arabic Palestinians who have been penned up in a chicken coup for 60 years now, whilst the controlling Semites enjoy half the population density in what was essentially the same country...

I am like so many people in this country ie both racist and accepting. What upsets me is that people come to this country and live here and do not make it their home all they want is to replicate where they came from but with welfare, good medical treatment, fairness etc and with an ultimate aim to make us like them.
I worked and lived abroad for eight years in Nigeria and I did my work well and did all I could to fit into the society. There were many things I did not like but I got to know many Nigerians and from those frienships I got to appreciate there points of view and why things were as they were. It was a good for me to learn that there was another way of looking at life.
This week on the radio a young black man, born here but with Nigerian parents said that he was fed up when asked about his nationality and with the conversation always ending up with but where do you really come from? This situation will always be when people want to be know as British Asian etc. Only when they accept that they first and secondly British will this practice end.
I have many Indian friends and the majoity are successful and hard working but some have a limited knowledge of England and our culture and the main interest is Zee tv for news and general viewing. One lady did not know that there was BBC tv and she had never in all her years here ever listened to radio 4. Along with this is the yearly need to have the pilgrimage back to India - I know this applies to other nationals.
I do not buy the argument that immigrants are required to pay our pensions, as the influx/bulge of immigrats will grow old themselves one day and require another intake to pay their pensions. Let our retirees work if they want - many will with diminished pensions.
A points system and quota system is required to control immigration. this has been run for years in Australia and it has served them well. We have to get our own unemplyed into work to fill all those vacancies.
Many years ago I wanted to emmigrate to Australia but I was ferused because of lack of secondary education although I had a degree in architecture. If I had of gone I would have been an immigrant and I wonder how i would have felt as an unwanted pom!!!

SOME THOUGHTS ON THE, HITHERTO, SENSITIVE SUBJECT OF IMMIGRATION.

At last – discussion on Immigration has been decoupled from the ‘Race’ issue witness the chairman of the CRE, Trevor Phillips congratulating David Cameron, the Conservative Leader, for his grown up and sensitive handling of the issue in his recent speeches on Conservative policy.

This follows some months after Mr Phillips warned that embracing multi-culturalism could lead to the UK ‘sleep walking’ towards segregation of differing cultural communities. One could argue that this leaves a large section of the ‘Political Correctness’ lobby without a viable product.

It is also interesting that in the popular press even Enoch Powell seems to have re-emerged as a not- so condemned profit of yesteryear. Powell was an intellect with few equals in his time but his use of inflammatory language was a big mistake when a more subtle approach would have served him and his cause more effectively. And, of course, Ted Heath had no alternative but to sack him.

I believe the following points are relevant to the current debate on immigration, which, due to the unprecedented scale of this phenomenon over the last 10 years, has produced one of the most serious social challenges for the UK since the economic recessions of the late 1920’s and early 30’s.

1. Without the approval of the British people, the government has permitted mass immigration by stealth, either deliberately or through incompetence, without considering the effect on the nation’s infrastructure, culture and social stability. It is becoming increasingly obvious that the cumulative burden on transport, schools, health services and housing will outweigh the benefit to the economy of any increase in GDP resulting from an increased labour force. This assumes an increase in the population of the UK (authoritively) estimated at 10 million to 70 million by 2031.

2. Britain’s membership of the EU prohibits it from restricting the free movement of citizens of other EU states from one country to another for the purposes of travel, residence or to seek employment. Britain did not avail itself of the concession to impose transitional arrangements for migrants from the 10 Eastern European states who joined the EU in 2004. Only Britain Ireland and Sweden placed no restriction on migration from the new member states whereas all the other existing member states, including Germany, France, Italy, Spain and Holland, imposed permitted limits. The British government estimated that the number of migrants from the new member states would be around 13,000 when in fact 600,000 arrived from Poland alone. This is the scale of government incompetence in relation to numbers. The government has announced that it will now impose transitional arrangements for migrants from the 2 new EU states – Romania and Bulgaria. Does the adage – stable door and horse bolted, echo here?

3. Britain is only able to control the influx of migrants from (a) EU states in transition, (b) non EU migrants, including migrants from old and new commonwealth member countries, (c) other countries and (d) asylum seekers. The number of Illegal immigrants is an unknown factor but the figures released by the government recently for foreign workers in the UK has been changed 3 times ranging from 800,000 to 1,500,000 which leads to the conclusion that government has no idea what the true level of immigration is, which implies that planning current and future resources to deal with this issue is impossible.

4. The estimates of the net benefits to the economy of immigration cover a wide spread – from £6 billion to the price of a mars bar for each immigrant. To me this means that nobody really knows and that any calculation is extremely subjective. To use just one series of examples – is an estimate based on current levels or projected levels of immigration? Is an estimate based on the numbers of immigrant workers or does it include their families who may follow? Has the differing birth rates of each cultural segment of the immigrant community been factored in to the resource requirement? Has the fact that many immigrants do not speak English been factored in? - All of these with important implications for the projected funding of social services.

5. A side issue, not often seriously considered, is the detrimental effect on the economies of the lesser developed nations when Western States, including Britain, cream off for inward migration, skilled workers and those from the professions – lawyers, doctors, scientists etc. This practice, if unchecked, will ensure that those lesser developed nations will be condemned to permanent third world status. It is the moral responsibility of the wealthier nations to assist the development of the poorer nations. In so doing, we help to ensure that two way trade develops, human deprivation and hardship is eased and our aid program is reduced or redirected as third world economies become self sufficient.

It is apparent that government policy options are very limited for dealing with immigration levels which, by common consent, have been and are still, too high. These include (a) a points system (b) a cap on non EU immigration (c) a quota system used in consultation with local government and industry (d) a border police force to eliminate or reduce illegal immigration, or more controversially (e) derogation from EU rules on EU nationals seeking work by imposing a moratorium or limits.

In addition, to run concurrently with some of the measures above, government must drastically reform the almost universal benefits culture which has been allowed to take root in Britain by successive governments. The figures are appalling with over 7 million of the working population inactive and drawing state benefit of one kind or another. For example it is almost inconceivable that there is 2.8 million people in this prosperous country entitled to claim incapacity benefit. In some areas of Britain the benefit culture is endemic and long term. Many of these claimants should be competing for the jobs happily filled by hard working migrants from Eastern Europe. In the US, a system introduced by Bill Clinton in some states, limited the lifetime claim for certain state benefits by an individual to 5 years, has reduced benefits costs by in excess of 50%

ALK 06/11/2007

Immigration in this country is not
controlled nobody truly know the numbers.I have worked with oversea
people and some can not speak english
but some people can speak english.
run the T.V. programmes about
1. THE NUMBERS AND IN WORK OR ON
BENEFITS
2. THE BENEFITS FOR THE PEOPLE
HERE AND WHO COME HERE
3. HOUSING BUILD MORE
At the end of the debate we say yes or no. Stop or limit immigration
or go for it.
(BUT HOUSING AND JOBS)

Immigration has made me a foreigner.

I live in inner London less than a mile away from where I was born forty years ago. The ethnic make-up has changed completely in the last 20 years, and my family and I, as white people, are now members of an ethnic minority. Frankly, I am not happy with this fact. If that is "racist" then so be it, but it is important that I express my view because this is what this debate is about.

My two sons are approaching school age. When I look at the local schools I see that there are nearly no white children at all (maybe 5%). I am not comfortable with the prospect that they will be the odd ones out. Children are cruel and my sons will undoubtedly been taunted for being white and different.

Had I emigrated to Japan for a better life I would have accepted such inconveniences. But I have not emigrated, I have stayed put, so why should I accept this?

I could move to another "whiter" area like so many others have done already. But why should I? - I was born here.

I have been very concerned for a long time about the unprecendented policy of mass immigration without limits or controls.

I have researched this subject very thoroughly and I know for a fact that the government has insisted that immigration is good for the economy based on very little research. The academic consensus is that the overall impact of excessive immigration is mainly negative. The 6 billion benefit to our economy by immigration DOES NOT take into account the extra costs to the NHS, education, translations costs, welfare costs, etc, etc, caused by mass immigration.

Not to mention housing. In a debate by Law Lords it is mentioned that if immigration continues at the current rate 6 NEW CITIES will be needed within 20 years. NOT possible. We hav'nt got the SPACE. Also how will the current economy support new cities, how will they be economically viable?

WHAT HAPPENS when the inevitable crash comes? When there are job shortages?

The UK is a small island and was already densely populated. When Blair came into power we had existing NHS problems, education problems, housing shortages. NOW those problems will be exarcebated by mass immigration. Already we are seeing the cracks forming. The strain on the UK's infrastructure will suddenly give way to catastrophe.

Where I live you can see the results of mass immigration CLEARLY. 8/10 people, in our suddenly very overcrowded streets our immigrants. I and many I know feel alienated from our own culture. I worry every day about immigration. MOST OF ALL I can't understand why the government is doing this? I am only an ordinary, everyday person and yet I can see the terrible consequences clearly. Why can't they?

At the moment anyone who trys to bring the merits of this subject up are beaten down by political correctness. This is not right. There are very convincing and sound reasons why mass immigration on the current scale is wrong.

The situation is urgent. For now until the UK has had time to assess the implications of this policy properly ALL IMMIGRATION should be stopped. The number of immigrants are not even known. I am positive the numbers are far, far higher than any officical guesstimates given now. My streeets are swelling everyday. The jobs I see fulfilled in the local community are taken by immigrants. You would be hard pushed to find a British born citizen amongst the. Eg. The widening of the Walworth Road.

I am glad of the opportunity to say something about this very important subject.

Amanda

The permit for anyone from the 15 new EU countries has lead to a predictable and welcome influx of eager peoples to improve their economic oportunity here in London. It seems to me that a lot of the recent growth in the economy was as a result in part of the hard working population. It is in evidence everywhere in London from restaurants, shops and in construction sites . I cannot think how the economy would have grown otherwise. It has also shown by contrast that there is a long term unemployed segment indiginous population who have not been taking up these jobs that the new wave of immigrants have. I think that labour has been trying to get young unemployed people into work but without a huge degree of success. How will politicians deal with this?. I was interested to listen to the debate on newsnight about the Winsconsin initiative which encourages people back into work after 5 years of welfare, and was interested to note that Labour are considering taking up a simular initiative in the UK. I would like to hear more about the pros and cons of such a scheme and if the politicians from different parties have any grounds of agreement on that proposal. Certainly along with the working migrant population there has been anecdotal evidence of welfare immigration but you can hardly blame immigrants who are in need travelling to another country as wealthy as this for assisatnce and housing not available in their home countries. In our neighbourhood we have more immigrants being housed from the new accession countries and it is a welcome sight seeing them moving into the newly built properties. They are showing signs of putting down roots and not merely passing through. I was certain that the numbers being posted by the government were infact underestimating the actual numbers arriving in the past few years. This must make it very difficult for providers of essiential services including health care, transport ,housing and education to plan and accommodate these extra numbers. I can see that the future of the UK is much more secure now that it has an influx of new immigrants. The aging population needs the extra migratory workforce to provide services that will be generated by an aging population. The key problem for the government is to actually find the correct number of residents in the country and plan for those number of people. I am amazed about the claims on this and other forum that the country is overpopulated. Everywhere I look I see empty flats and houses. What need to be address by government is to make these properties affordable. I know the exchequer has made billions from satmp duties from the recent housing boom however the building of affordable housing has not keep up with demand. I think all parties need to focus in requiring the developers to build on their land banks and brownfield sites. I would be worried that we would start building on the green belt but unfortunately I think thats what may happen. I was pleased to note that a government task force on housing has encouraged public sector landowners including the MOD and other government departments to release land for building in London.It is important to have good infrastructures around the housing that is being built in the thames gateway, including transport, education , health and retail . Housing should increase in density to match the needs of the population to be near the place of work to ease the burden on the transport system. The 2012 olympics and paralympics with require further inward immigration along with the other building of crossrail and housing. I think it should be made easier for the new accession countries to enter the workforce through training and and settlement programmes. Culturally I have not been able to assess the input of the former eastern block accession migrants. Its too early to see if their food ,entertainment and other cultural arts will be promanent enough to stand out against the rich cultural tapestry to be found in somewhere like London, but its too early to say. I find it worrying that young black men indigenous to the uk are being left behind. The more new immigrants that arrive the harder it is for them to compete. I suppose that its something that they as a distinct culture need to address. Young male Pakistan immigrants also wander around unemployed while their Indian counterparts are racing ahead in employment. Its a challange for the politicians and policy makers to address this otherwise there will be distinct social unreast and frustration amoungst these yound men, turning to social problems for them as an individual and socio-economic group.

What is the point in this 'debate'? It won't be a real one as all three main parties believe in mass immmigration and believe it only has an upside and no downsides to it. A 'debate' conducted on PC terms is not a real debate at all.

Where to start, there's so many elements to this debate. I've gone from Guardian reading 'liberal lefty' to committed Nationalist in just a few short years. I did this despite the relentless media campaign telling me how wonderful and 'vibrant' 'diversity' is. My eyes and ears, eventually, told me otherwise. It breaks my heart to know I'm going to be a minority in my own home city in just a few short years. Watching my, English, culture built up over hundreds of years being so casually destroyed in the name of multiculturism. I wouldn't wish this on any other country. Apart from the social and cultural aspects we're told this is all being done for the economy. Despite the numerous reports that quite clearly show that, per capita, the benefits, if at all, are paltry. The idea that this has been done for economic reasons is risible. Immigration would have been handled very differently if the primary reason for it was economic. I could talk about the ridiculous notion that only the English (I refuse to use terms involving skin colour; the whole skin colour thing is a complete red herring) can be racist or that somehow the BNP are considered extreme whilst overseeing massive levels of uncontrolled immigration without any debate or mandate and the active suppression of even the slightest dissent is 'mainstream'. The clincher for me though is that we're going to see a huge rise in the population of this tiny island and the subsequent degradation of the whole environment and for what?

I could go on, there's so much more, but I'll finish with this. Stop all immigration now.

When immigration becomes so great, to the extent where it affects the existing population and stretches resources to such an extent, tighter controls need to be excerised. The city of London bears much of the burden of immigration and it is already an overcrowded city. As a Londoner i have felt increasingly isolated in a community of foreign language speakers who do not sufficiently intergrate into the wider community, to the extent that i have decided to move out of the area.

The sudden influx of eastern european workers was unprecedented but the effects were immediately obvious. I think a cohesive society it not feasible when fewer and fewer londoners have a good grasp of the English language.

Any economic benefits immigrants bring is quickly swallowed up by the millions of pounds we spend on things like translation, services and so on.

A long overdue debate in my opinion!

We are letting criminal gangs enter the country unchecked. Prostitution rings, people trafficking, drug cartels; why are these gangs sliping through the net. If controls we adequate this would be less of a problem.

What we a seeing is a fundamental change to the British way of life that we are reluctant to welcome. We are struggling to retain our 'Britishness', in a changing cultural climate.

Immigration per se is not the problem. The history of it is a part of our history. I haven't a clue of my family history that goes further back than 100 years but I know I am English. The constant mantra in Parliament of celebrating cultural diverisity is specious and I see no true evidence of it whether it be Ramadan or the others in my city. The problem, it seems to me, is accomodating the sheer numbers in a relatively short period of time and the movement seems to be one way ie to Western Europe. Rightly or wrongly there is a sense of unfairness in our ability in urban areas to access those services for which we have been paying tax most of our working lives.

Human history and cultural evolution is a history of travel and trade: people move, and this is how cultures exchange things, practices and ideas. Isolated communities don't change and grow. That said, there's a perfectly understandable reason why human groups are made anxious by too much, and too swift, change. It's because 'home' - however you identify it -- is the place where you know what's going on because you can 'read' all the signs by which a culture (or cultural grouping) understands and 'knows' itself. Too much strangeness, too much breaking of well-known cultural codes, is deeply unsettling because human identity isn't something locked away inside people's heads; it resides, collectively, in the cultural (and to some extent natural) environment, and in the legibility of that environment. Being in an unfamiliar environment can be exhilarating, but also exhausting, precisely because it's hard to 'read', and hence to know when you're getting the signs right or wrong. This is pretty basic stuff, and it would be good to see some awareness of it in discussions about immigration. A certain amount of newness and difference is exciting and stimulates innovation; too much alarms people because they become frightened that they literally can't (or soon might not be able to) make sense of things anymore. It's probably also worth saying that those people who feel least in control of their environments (i.e. of the signs which they 'read' coming in to them, and of the effectiveness of the signs they 'send out') are likely to be those most vulnerable to anxiety induced by the experience of a lot of cultural newness and difference. So the question of the effects of large-scale immigration is always also a question of cultural (and of course economic) power and influence. Those who have it, and who feel absolutely secure in maintaining it, are unlikely to be made as anxious by rapid cultural change as those who do not. If we really want to get to grips with anxieties about 'difference', 'racism' is probably not (or is no longer) a very helpful term because it tends to close down discussion rather than illuminate it. Human beings are what they are: i.e. animals who live richly in signs, and in languages (of words and bodies) which are communities of signs. That's how they 'know' themselves and how they experience their sense of identity. It's not a coincidence that conquering and colonialist cultures always impose their languages upon the conquered; language -- which is to say cultural codes and conventions -- is what makes both individual and collective identities. History is replete with knowledge of this simple (but often ignored) fact, and we really shouldn't be surprised if people express anxiety when they feel that their ways of being 'at home' in the world (which is to say their ways of making sense of their world) are (or might be) in danger of becoming incoherent. The whole immigration debate would be much better served (and illuminated) by discussions intelligently informed by some understanding of humans as creatures who live in, and make creative sense of themselves in, the meetings of a world of legible (familiar) and illegible (unfamiliar) signs. The latter make us innovate, but the former provide the security and stability which is the basis upon which new adventuring depends.

Has anybody noticed the irony that, nearly 40 years after Enoch Powell rather loosely (and certainly unwisely) drew on a gloomy prediction by Sybil that the Tiber would roll as a purple flood, it is the Italian Government who have just decided to repatriate immigrants who seem constitutionally incapable of abiding by Italian law?

Surely immigration should be controlled, mainly because let's face it, England is full up! I say England, because perhaps Scotland, where most of the politicians who make decisions on our behalf come from, is less densely populated.

Unfortunately, in discussions about immigration, these same politicians don't seem to look at the whole problem in the round. We are told what a great contribution the immigrants make and indeed it is clear that many individuals are incredibly hardworking and motivated. But because they are so motivated, they are willing to work for lower wages, which keeps wages lower overall. So those on benefit see no reason to work. The numbers of those on benefit have not declined since Labour took office. And because many immigrants come with some training, firms see no reason to train apprentices. Apparently there are hundreds of applicants for every apprentice place. So the well off company owners get richer and the poor Britons stay poor.

We are told we need to build 3+ million houses. For whom? Surely not all are needed for young Britons? We are told we need to build more roads because they are far too congested. Schools are full, and if teachers have to cope with many non-English speaking children, how can they hope to keep standards up?

I have quite a few young friends who are immigrants from EAstern Europe and North Africa and they themselves are quite surprised at the way the UK bends over backwards to accommodate non-British customs, and enquire why Britons are not applying for their jobs. There's absolutely no doubt that Britain has benefited immeasurably from immigration in past decades, and indeed we must all carry genes of immigrants'from somewhere or other, but this current wave is just too many, too quickly, and unless some controls are put in place and changes made in the way life is organized within the UK, the atmosphere will unfortunately deteriorate further.

The UK is probably the only modern industrial country with no effective immigration policy. No other country in the world has such lax, liberal and laughable,u nenforcable immigration procedures. Yes it does have to be addressed, as any modern society needs to manage itself financially, socially, economically. During the early 90s, I was one of those prepared to do anything to get myself ahead, yet I struggled to compete for casual low paid work with latin americans, south africans, australians, new zealanders, africans, asians .. and that was before the EU expansion and even at a time when even Spanish nationals could not work in the UK legally, although they did in their thousands. Also, let's remember that students visiting the UK can automatically work a certain number of hours a week, but effectively work fulltime. there's nobody that controls it and employers don't bother checking work permits etc. Also, after 3 years of residency anyone can apply for citizenship. At the end of the day the UK is a magnet for everyone, from all over the world - no other country can claim to be in the same situation and so welcoming, but for a Brit wanting to work abroad, it's another matter, unless you're a high flyer or doing some holiday job. Other countries such as USA, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Japan, Nigeria even, you name it, have effective systems in place ( official stamps etc) to monitor immigration and determine who has the right to work and who not. You need the right papers and all employers know what they need to see before employing someone. I actually attempted working in mexico in 1992 and was unable to get the correct work permit. I got kicked out of the USA also, eventually i ended up in switzerland where i did eventually find work, but only because i was married to a swiss, but even then getting the correct permission was difficult and had to be renewed annually. It's all very well having open borders and a constant flow of people into the UK now perhaps, but what happens when the economy dies and the job market shrinks. Who gets to stay and who gets to go. Where can a Brit go that's as welcoming as the UK and has an economy strong enough to provide jobs? eh?

But yes the UK is a great cosmopolitan country rich in a myriad of cultures, but enough is enough, although we know that it's unlikely to change as even discussing immigration seems to be too scary for most politicians. At least they can rest assured that their world at westminster will not be deluged with foreign politicians looking for a seat in parliament.

I have just re-read the speech which Enoch Powell made in April 1968 infamously and falsely known as the "Rivers of Blood" speech. I challenge any politician or 'expert' (and I use that term very loosely) to put his hand on his heart and declare that Enoch Powell was not right. Powell saw the nightmare we are living through today almost 40 years ago and the speech marks him as probably the most remarkably prescient and courageous politician of all time.

I have a job that involves meeting many disadvantaged areas in the northeast, interviewing householders.

One phrase which comes up repeatedly by commentators on the issue of immigration is that "they are doing jobs we don't want to do".

Whilst I accept this is undoutedly true in certain sectors of the economy it is a phrase thats used predominatly by protagonists of a relatively open door immigration policy.

This is I feel somewhat unfortunate in that perhaps it actually misrepresents an important issue in this area - that of us havign substantial proportion of outr potential workforce thats are quite happy not to work and for whom this tern of phrase is an addition reason for them to continue to sit on their backsides and take advantage of the social security system whilst simultaneously refusing to take up the freely available help to get them into work.

Unti lwe recognise that we have a growing section of out society that feel justified and entitled to wait for the right job on the never never and that our social security system allows them to do it, indded actively promotes the prioblem will continue as out society becomes more affluent and the definition of what is poverty rises with it.

It is often these types of individual, in my experience, that a re some of the most vocal detractors of out curent immigration policies.

The immigrant continues to be a reason for these people to deny their personal responsibilities in getting into work - certainly not the only one - but an important one nontheless.

We are far too soft on that section of out society that refuses to work and in the great immigration debate it might be far more consturctive for us to stop referring to "jobs we dont want to do| to jobs thats we are "too lazy" to do.

At the middle to higher professional level work environment, young doctors are often sited. In these areas we need to break down the controlled numbers we train rather than "forgeting" that many professional bodies self limit supply into their industries by training too few people keeping salries for those in the profession artificially high - thus providing a shortage of home grown supply and an inward pressure for trained professionals from overseas.

Increasing doctor numbers may be problematic and require longer term solutions but it is less obvious why we should face shortages of opticians, dentists and pharmacists.

On a seperate issue. We promote degree education and have greatly increased the numbers of people sitting for degrees. all very well on the surface but our message is unhelpful for it promotes self indulgent education and training rather than encouraging training in the areas where jobs exist. Just as we cant all be professional footballers in is unrealistic to promote many degree courses which do not lead to professional careers for the majority that invest in them. It is the right educatuion thats matter not self-indulgent education for educations sake.

Our careers advice system for the young is woefully inadequate so it should not be suprising to us that increasing numbers of our potential workforce find themselves without the skills and exoperince in demand and pre programmed to look down on certain jobs far too early in their working lives.

I have worked with refugees for many years and see nothing wrong with some level of immigration, but it seems we want to turn it on & off like a tap, in what appears unmanaged to say the least. It seems ironic that my local council spends hundreds of thousands on a sure start programme to educate and refrain indigenous 16 year old girls from having children - yet we stand back and allow people from other countries to come here and do exactly that. When I challenged this decision locally - I was told that culturally our immigrants always have children at a young age! We are now also told that we need to build 2 million more homes as there is a housing crisis, yet at the same time told we need mass imigration due to our falling population, yet if this were true - there must by definition be enough homes for all.
It seems to me that there must be more to the immigration programme than meets the eye.

I think we need alot more witness statements such as Jon Manning from people who can tell us exactly how resource decisions are being made (policy implementation) and less of the intangible concepts and buzz words from policy makers

Why do people on this thread go into great detail as to why migration is taking place and the benefits it brings, what the heck does it matter? No matter what the reason, the outcome for Britain and it's people will be the same - extinction!

If mass unfettered immigration continues into this country at the same rate for the next five Years, the inevitable result will be the death of Britain (by the end of this century) - it's as simple as that.

The question is stark, do the indigenous people of Britain think that all the lyrical waxing of benefits that immigrants bring to this country is worth it?

The unavoidable truth is, Britain and it's people will be engineered off this planet - is that a sufficiently good trade off for all those economic benefits.

It is a simple enough question to ask.

deluded liberal lefties (that includes me) put into place the policies of multiculturalism - ie. the idea that we should be fair to ethnic minorities

but that isn't the full story.

the situation today has largely been created by a determined and often collaborative effort to squeeze every last favour out of those high ideals of multiculturalism - i.e. the rights culture

we were caught out on the one thing that has made english a global language - its flexibility of use and meaning.

unfortunately us lefties did not reckon with the non-nuanced interpretation of an intendedly nuanced concept.

When does immigration, and its manipulation become a form of demographic warfare? And need it be intentional?

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/seth_freedman/2007/05/demographic_warfare.html

Four years ago Tam Dalyell even got himself into trouble through suggesting that Mr Blair was under the influence of a cabal.

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=510722003
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2999219.stm

But the notion of 'cabals' suggests something sinister and conspiratorial and often there is no such thing in practice, the very suggestion causing offence as it did above. But groups don't always compete consciously. Certainly this is true elsewhere in nature.

When stakes are high, as they were over Iraq, and as they are today over Iran and now domestically over immigration it is natural that people want rational explanations for policy decisions, explanations through which they can hold their elected representatives democratically accountable.

Recently, Richard Dawkins caused a bit of a stir in The Times through something that was reported in The Guardian where he was said to have praised a politically active segement of the USA Jewish community for its successful lobbying of US foreign policy in favour of Israel via AIPAC. In the wake of what was quite commonly made, and well substantiated, remark, Dawkins was accused by some (cf. The Times comments after the article by Danny Finkelstein) of anti-Semitism. But lobbying in the UK, as here is not illegal, nor is it conspiratorial. It is part of the democratic process whereby special interest groups pressure politicians to act in support of their collective interests. This is the theme of this comment. Immigration brings special interest groups,a ndc special interest groups can undermine democracy.

There are two ways to express one's influence economically, culturally and politically. One is to simply vote in elections and hope that your MP will represent your wishes when s/he votes in parliament, the other is to drive out the competition through team-work i.e. shrewd politics or collective lobbying, aka 'collective bargaining'.

The latter seems to have happened in New York, where, over the last century, the city progressively became more multi-cultural some groups advocating immigration, others not. NYC now has a Jewish population of close to 2m million (in the first decade or sop of the C20th it was, according to Martin Gilbert, just under 5 million). NYC has a Black American population of over 2m million (the largest Black city in the USA), and even larger Hispanic population of about 2.5m. Given a population of about 8m, the next two minorities are East Asian and White-non-Hispanic/Non-Jewish. This is not what everyone assumes when thinking about NYC. NYC has not collapsed socio-economically as a consequence, although the power structure in the city must now be disproportionately Jewish than other given their higher mean IQ, the relative numbers in the population, and the high correlation between IQ and socio-economic status. Having said that it didn't collapse, NYC did have a serious crime problem in the Regan years, when de-regulation was at its height.

London's Jewish population has never been as high as New York's, although London was once a first port of call en route at the end of the C19th and beginning of C20th, and there was a very large East End Jewish community. As the UK 16+1 ethnic classification system does not cover Jewish people (even though Jews and Sikhs are covered by the Race Relations Act 1976), they are a past immigrant group, and they are often cited as an example of how immigration benefits a country. I'd like to ask whether the high salience of Jews (most secular, or non-Orthodox etc) in British political life, business and the media, relative to their published population base rate of under 300,000 (0.5%) might have an explanation other than meritocracy, i.e whether this success can at least in part be explained as function of their closer community ties as well as their natural ability, as statistically, figures like the following (and some have asserted that Jews comprise as much as 10% of the House of Lords) are surely a remarkable, laudable, testament to their achievement even at 46/700, as that's 6.5% (or 13x over the expected rate as a function of their population base rate). My basic question is, if the Jews can do this, why not the other immigrant groups of the past, and today?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/785629.html

The other side of this may of course, be that some of the original
indigenous groups moved out of London to the suburbs and even the UK altogether a consequence of high immigration and fragmentation of their community as immigrant groups, being small, tend to initially group
together and create enclaves with their own culture.

If we look today at some of the big employers, at least some of the big
names (TESCO, M&S, Sainsbury's etc) were originally Jewish companies although many are now public companies), as are many of the big names in the financial sector. Did the same happen in NYC as a consequence of high Jewish immigration? I ask, as it seems that as with other small minority groups in the UK, the Jewish community seems to be concentrated in London, Manchester and a few other cities, and it's easier (and quite natural) for small enclaves to support each other. No doubt high innate cognitive ability is an important factor, but we do not see the same high profile numbers of Chinese who are similar in population size, and come top in our state school exams, nor are the British Indians as salient, and they come second in the league tables (and figure in the UK
population at 7x the rate of the Jews).

At root, this is a statistically driven, social justice question. When statistical observations are dramatically at odds with what one would expect by chance, assuming no ethnic/racial differences between groups (ceteris paribus), rational analysis/science demands an explanation. Furthermore, given that it has often been Jewish social scientists who have made the case for racial equality and campaigned for anti-racism and other anti-discrimination/human rights issues, I thought it would be interesting to hear peoples' views on this, as if socio-economic prominence is meritocratic and largely a function of innate ability, it surely raises important questions about other minority British groups who though excelling academically are not as salient as the Jews despite their higher numbers in the population, and if it is primarily a matter of innate ability, presumably we must attribute the low salience of other groups in our society who do not excel (despite their much larger numbers) to their lower innate ability?

Why do some groups do well, and other not? Surely this matters
when one has open borders, otherwise, unregulated immigration plus anti-discrimination legislation surely becomes are a form of national idnetity Russian Roulette?

Stop immigration now. All this 'now let's debate' schtick is a play for time/distraction on the part of the interests that launched this unacknowledged transformative project 50-60 years ago, a project to transform Britain that the Chief Rabbi can refer to on the BBC's 'Start The Week' as necessary and seemingly not have to explain why.

Stop. Immigration. Now.

I occasionally travel into parts of England that thousands of workingmen proudly left to fight, and, mostly die in wars that were said by professional politicians ' to end all wars '. They have become Islamic ghettos.
These areas are culturally unrecognizable as England. So can all these bloggers who continually mention the number of Brits who have emigrated to Spain or France or Ox or NZ. Show me where the corresponding changes to those other country’s cultural or physical outlook that has taken place?
Also, the numbers of dependants who are draining the social infrastructure in this country are NOT at all a financial benefit until they leave school and actually find employment, but that in turn is no guarantee that they will choose to stay here.

Immigration has fulfilled a need ...although the way it has been managed by the Governemant has been appalling.
BUT 10 million MORE will be UNSUSTAINABLE - we have NO ROOM , NO SCHOOL PLACES, NO TRANSPORT, no NHS AVAILABLITY and NO room on the roads..
It would be a total disaster - will someone kindly TELL THE TRUTH!

Foreign Nationals prisoner numbers are around 10,500 out of 80,000 that's 13% of the people in prison.
The current UK population is approximately 60,500,000
Government claims the population of Foreign Nationals is 1,100,000

The only conclusion you can come too is unless we are letting into the UK loads of criminals, the number of forign nationals is around 7,865,000 (13% of 60,500,000) or on the other hand if 13% of crime is committed by foreign nationals which represents just 1.8%of the total population (1,100,000 of 60,500,000) we must be letting in a huge number of criminals from other countries (that's why they come to the UK for protection under the human rights act, it saves facing charges in their own country.)

In reply to post 193 by Mona Mcnee - the polices of Enoch Powell spoke for a minorty - not a majority.

Your post sounds near hysterical with your use of comments such as 'we are full up' and 'turn the tide' so no wonder it came as no surprise to end up reading that the whole post is a recruitment ad for the BNP.

The population of the UK according to the 2001 Census is 52 million. Ethnic minorities make up only 8% of the total population leaving 92% being White British. So lets not get carried away with the UK being overrun.

Sure, there are very real pressures being put upon the services such as the NHS because of the recent influx however it's important to see both sides of the coin and weigh up the advantages vs. disadvantages.

Out of interest, if the BNP ever did get into power and stopped all immigration where would its focus turn to next?

This is commenting against Judith's remarks...

It is true that 'we have gone anywhere & everywhere', but Judith I think the main point is.. If you go to another country to settle you have to have sufficient means to support yourself for at least 12 to 24 months.

People are coming here because they know the government will house them, feed them, free this & free that. MIGRATION can be good. Where warranted & needed for skilled people. But the immigrants that just come here for a free meal ticket have to be stopped. The government has a responsibility to every person paying taxes to stop this. As a married person with no children I get no tax breaks, nothing. Why should people have to pay into a failing system just so we can eventually become primarily a non english (speaking) country?

We live on such a small island & we are bursting at the seams. The government talk about 3 million more house in the next 10 to 15 yrs. There will be nothing left of our countrysides, even more cars on the road (did I mention the fact that immigrants are getting free cars with no driving licenses? I have witnessed this 1st hand).

The more unskilled people that come here, the more you & I will pay for it.

Non-one can seriously think that in the space ten years Britain's economy has gone from a position whereby there weren't enough jobs for 3 million unemployed, to one where we're now reliant on economic migrants. The reason the Labour government has let this happen is simple: migrant workers are cheap, therefore they dampen down wage levels which in turn holds down inflation. Ask yourself, how your pay has increased in the last five years. A little? Nothing at all? Join the club.If a Conservative government set about exploiting low paid workers in this manner, their would be uproar.

No one actually asked the British public if they wanted a multi racial society.It was not in any party's manifesto. It is outrageous and in my view the politicians responsible should be behind bars. But,none of them are accountable.I listened to the waffle spouted this morning on your station by the woman in charge of the Board of Immigration re the £30 million squandered on the Asylum Centre that was never built.She didn't begin to explained what happened and where the money went.
These people are water tight. How do they get away with it? We need to get rid of this shower that is running the country and insist on a government that does what the people want.

From Futurus On the economics the answer is simple and is well put by the National Research Council of the USA-
'If the immigrants have exactly the same skill distribution as domestic workers and if they have brought sufficient capital with them to maintain the US capital/labour ratio,then natives will neither benefit nor lose from immigration'.
In other words do our immigrants have the same capital as natives-plainly not and therefore -it has to be appropriated from natives-that is higher taxes for new schools roads etc
Most immigrants also fall well below natives in skill so that is another loss to natives.
Present immigration to the Uk in economic terms is plainly massively impoverishing for natives.

Labor, Conservative and Liberal closely follow each other in their policies. That's the reason from Major onwards there has been no choice.

Immigration has steadily gained ground since WW2, Powell raised the warning, and was shouted down by the Liberal elements in all parties. This started the changes to our law culminating in todays so called multiculturalism.

We, the vast majority of us reject it. This disharmony has been brought on by Liberal bigots slowly gaining power.

We have never been asked or consulted.

We condemn the treason carried out against us in our country.

One country that seems to have got it right is Australia. They put heavy limits on the numbers of people coming to their country.

Now if I am not mistaken, Australia was under ''British Rule'', so we have ''ties'' with them. If they can get it right over there, why can't we take a leaf or two out of their book?

The only option is vote BNP, they seem to be the only party that will take this on.

Why am I surprised that all and sundry are suddenly sitting up and saying immigration is not only a big problem but promises to subsume the indigenous population?

The Monday Club was putting forward every possible argument for halting immigration between 1961 and 1992. Every statistic and argument was wheeled out, not by raving nutters but by well-educated people, MPs, QCs, and others. In fact much of the reasoning now argued by Sir Andrew Green of Immigrationwatch had already been predicted by the Monday Club.

Now crunchtime approaches and everyone is handwringing.

This is a simple matter but unless approached very radically everything else will fail.

In their 1971 Election Manifesto the non-Conservative Party pledged they would halt all large-scale immigration into Britain and actively encourage voluntary repatriation. That was just another of their lies to the electorate. (Some things never change).

But this needs to be done NOW.

In addition we need emergency legislation denying all-comers all forms of social security benefits and if the ludicrous Human Rights Act stands in the way of that, repeal it.

We need to employ thousands more police investigators to track down illegal immigrants who should be instantly deported. No trial, No legal aid, no nothing. Out.

And once our immigration tribunals or courts say no to so-called asylum applications that should be it. NO appeals on legal aid, just straight out.

Radical action. The alternative is the end of the recogniseable British nation as a European entity.

Immigration at levels consistent with a stable population is fine. But the projection that the UK's population will grow by over 15% is deeply concerning.

We have built large amounts of housing on inappropriate land already. We cannot build 3 million new homes in the south east without serious adverse consequences on the environment.

Increasing urban densities e.g. 800,000 new homes in London will only add to the problem of violent street crime which our politicians and police ignore.

Our transport infrastructure is already at breaking point with the average British commute 55 minutes.

Labour market policy should target getting Britain's huge reserve of hidden unemployed back into the labour force. It is ridiculous to allow 1 million 16-19 year olds to fester on benefit while a similar number of East Europeans have found productive employment.

Escalating immigration is a way of papering over the growing cracks in our welfare state, in particular the unfunded liabilities of the major public sector pension schemes which threaten to wreck Britain's public finances in coming decades.

We should welcome the opportunity to have this debate at last because it touches on so many areas where this country has to examine important issues realistically.

This has been said before by others, but look at the salaries and wages of say Poles at home compared to wages and salaries here. One has to look at relative purchasing power. Economic migrants are bound to work longer hours if the purchasing power of the pounds which they earn here is much greater than what they would earn at home. Taking Poland, compare food prices.

UK
http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/cost.html

POLAND:
http://www.newpoland.com/travel_things_to_know.htm#Current%20Prices

Conversion
http://coinmill.com/GBP_PLN.html#PLN=2.50

Example:
1 kilo sugar in Poland = 19p
1 Kilo sugar in UK = 48p

Given these differences, which group do you think will be most motivated to work? Then think about Africa and S Asia.

Workers live cheaply here and send money home. Surely this is kid's stuff? Saying they are good for the economy and are better workers is just the self-serving nonsense one hears from employers and others who must benefit at the expense of the indigenous citizens who simply can't compete. The value of they money earned, though the same in absolute amounts, is different in terms of relative purchasing power between the two countries. Although as prices rise in Poland, the number of economic migrants will no doubt fall, especially if the EU A8 are forced, trough market forces, to match prices and services with their other EU states. They may go home in time.
http://www.polskieradio.pl/zagranica/gb/dokument.aspx?iid=58480

But it's doubtful if Africans and S Asians will go home, as they are not in the EU and are not subject to the same equilibriating forces. I suggest the A8 states are a red herring which may blind us to dire consequences of large scale continued immigration from outside the EU. Look at the figures for the influx from New Commonwealth countries in the tables referenced in #119, and see earlier comments from Frattini recommending a further 20m from outside the EU to compensate for the low birth rates. The problem is the low indigenous birth rate. That is the key. That has been the 'target'.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/2007/11/the_big_immigration_debate.html#c3991959

When will politicians realise that we are all living on a very small island and this island is full! Isn't it about time we shut the door to all immigration? At what point do we say that there is no more room? Is it when our road transport system becomes so clogged up that nobody can move anywhere?

The mass immigration is causing so much resentment amongst the white population that I fear for the future. Variety is the spice of life but too much spice ruins the meal. The culture of most of these non EU immigrants is also very different to the indiginous population that integration will never happen. Islam in particular will never fit in with other faiths and the conflict will just get worse. also the large number of Eastern Eurpeans has caused many problems too. where will all these people live..where is the room on thr roads or in the schools or NHS faclities. Immigration by people of such differing cultures must end and be reversed otherwise there will be conflict I feel.

It's got so out of control this little island can't cope the govenment should be getting more to leave now & stop others from coming here it dosen't matter what people may think that the english are racist for wanting this there is a large percentage that are but are too gutless to stand up for their country disgraceful stop it now before riots start happening bringing more hate between peoples

I hope that Gavin Esler and Richard Bacon will not turn this into an anti EU discussion by suggesting that most incomers are from the EU. Most immigrants come from OUTSIDE EU.

I hope too that they will not talk generally about 'immigrants' and about what 'immigrants' contribute to our well being. DIFFERENTIATE PLEASE. Some incomers contribute, yes, and some (most?) do not and only benefit themselves at our expense.
Above all be honest and avoid BBC correctness (commonly called political correctness).

The only reason the politicians are now showing concern over immigration levels is because the British National Party is attracting ever increasing levels of support across the country on this very issue. If there was no BNP then this issue would be ignored - as it has been for decades.

It is therefore absurd that this "debate" (largely between parties that are basically pro-immigration) does not include BNP representation. It's very much like having a debate on the growth in crime without involving the police.

So let's have a REAL debate and involve those on BOTH sides of the political divide. What is the BBC afraid of - a real debate?

Immigration is not the problem it is merely a symptom if a failed economic concept - globalisation and the model of infinite economic growth that the whole world slavishly follows blindly to its destruction.
The easiest and only way to get infinite economic growth is to have infinite population growth. But resources are finite = problem!
The UK Govt. has no population policy and argues immigration is a good thing economically and we need extra workers to pay for our rising pensions bill.
In 20 years time who will pay the pensions bill of the even bigger population?
More immigrants?
Most immigration has been a good thing in terms of culture and social interaction but this is not the point.
The point is this country is over populated now. Hence lack of homes, traffic congestion, water shortage, pollution, noise,extinction of species, aggression and decline of moral values/social cohesion, social services overstretched,NHS struggling to cope etc.
The continued explosion in population will only make this worse.
Therefore immigration should be controlled to a level where net population flow is outwards not inwards.Then a population and sustainability policy should be developed and agreed by ALL political parties.
Stop playing on the countries fears about Johnny foreigner and tackle the real issues of over development, depletion of resources, lack of landfill.
Immigration is only a problem because it increases over population

A primary reason why our prisons are full is because we allow so many foreign criminal gangs and violent criminals enter. Judging by the high number of deportations of criminals per year, should we not carry out checks on immigrants before they enter the country, rather than waiting for them to commit crimes before we can deport them. Not only is it a costly problem for police, courts and prisons but it is also contributing to the deterioration of our society.

Could the programmers please invite 101 Alexandra; 110 Denis; 123 Exiled Northerner to participate in the debate plus a leading figure at Migration Watch. I believe Migration Watch figures 100% more than I would trust any politician.
Finally, as a Christian country (not post Christian as someone remarked - we have a monarchy with a Queen as defender of the faith of our Christian churches). Can we have a campaign to reinstate Christmas to all the local authorities that have banned it so as not to offend ethnic minorities? They are offending the majority of Christians by this exclusion.

Currently, we have 5 million on benefit. Many of these who are perfectly capable of work prefer to do nothing while the rest of us work to keep them idle
It is not surprising, therefore, that employers prefer to employ hard-working immigrants. Unfortunately, by so doing they are enabling the idle and work-shy to continue to engage in a life that contributes nothing to our society.

whether britain likes it or not, u need immigration, its a simple fact , go check the ageing poplulation n you all will understand. though i support the fact that immigration for now in uk should be based on skills. people who would add to the economy and also balance the ageing population.
and also pls clear the discussion on international students, i think they should be given more preference compared to unskilled europeans who add nothing to the economy but increase in the demand for social services.
looking at the international students in various ways,1- they help maintain the educational prestige of UK universities/education. 2- they contribute millions, if not billions to the industry in terms of fee,3- abundance of skills required in different areas of academics/science.n many more

One Celtic culture, living on the coast (rpt)
And with one Celtic culture we’re surely going to toast
The horn-ed migrants we’re gonna love the most

One British culture (Saxon is an error) (rpt)
And with that British culture we’re going to split in four
With the Celts in the fringes and the Norsemen on the door

One thousand years has rapidly gone by (rpt)
And the French and the English have made each other cry
But the Dutch and the Germans have grabbed the monarchy

Three strong women sitting on the throne (rpt)
And with their tenacity the British Isles has grown
But the Empire’s over and the family’s coming home

Two world wars create an EU dream (rpt)
And we’ll make a living, like the cat that’s got the cream,
With our friends who survived a holocaustic scheme

One British culture with neatly tailored ties (rpt)
And Kefilte fishy with some saucy Frenchie fries
Will be our staple to stoke the Sheffield fires

Windward Ho-o! Like Vikings on big ships (rpt)
And our new London transport has slinkier hips
And we’re all going to party now we’ve got the tips

One British culture getting down to rap (rpt)
And with one British culture we’re gonna close the gap
Tween the young and the old and the black and white chap

One mad dictator (with a head in his fridge!) (rpt)
And with one swift policy the Asian business’ shift
And they came over here with their own brand of thrift

One British culture with shops on every corn’ (rpt)
And we’ll never run out of milk in the morn
And the lights of the festival will the streets adorn

One hundred dark mills, satanic in the north (rpt)
And down from the mountains the workforce sallied forth
But the jobs they soon dried up and the weather’s getting worse

One English culture creaking in the Shires (rpt)
And with girls in question we ask what man admires
But we cannot agree on some suitable attires

Here come Kenny, George and Mr Blair (rpt)
And these three bruisers are going to a fair
And they’re wearing flowers in their sycophantic hair

Hey Mr Blair-man why don’t you up me wind? (rpt)
And we’re all being nice now, coz we mustn’t be unkind
But some with a brain are going out their mind

Half a million Slavs eating sauerkraut (rpt)
And they can’t half work hard; they’ve surely found us out
But the pay rise we wanted is now much more in doubt

Some refugees, well maybe several tens (rpt)
And they’ve seen things they shouldn’t and they’re used to violence
So we think they should learn to be Britizens

Lots of cultures vying for a piece (rpt)
And with lots of cultures we’re feeling ill at ease
And we can’t remember which is the way to peace

Alternative food ending
Lots of cultures vying for a piece (rpt)
And with lots of cultures we’re feeling ill at ease
And we can’t remember what were mushy peas

OK, UK, they say your food is yuck (rpt)
And with one EU continent telling us we suck
It’s with intrepidation that I summon up the pluck

To say:

One poor diet to feed the cultural stew (rpt)
And we’re all eating more than we really aught to do
But the food is so yummy we cannot help but chew

One fat nation full of British blubber (rpt)
And we’re all still arguing round the dinner table
For in this country you dispute if you’re able

Hurrah for the fox!

Please explain why we are told that colonialism is wicked, yet objection to the colonisation of England is dismissed in the most vile terms. Is the explanation stupidity, hypocrisy, or bigotry?

There's been far too much immigration.The pro-immigrant lobby have stolen our freedoms of speech,choice and asociation through their race relatins industry,political correctnes,and multiculturalism.We should scrap the lot,restrict immigration to those able to read,write and speak fluent English,insist on ten years' residence before they can claim welfare,and deport all scroungers and criminals among them.

Migration is all very well while an economy is expanding, but what happens if there is a slow down or reversal in GDP growth. Long term economic growth for resource and energy hungry economies is not good, making it difficult to absorb migrant labour. Migrant labour produces wage deflation, that increase those caught in the benefit trap. I really wonder who is actually subsidizing cheap foreign labour and who is really benefiting.

Migrants are on a win/win situation. Some can come here do very well and enjoy a good standard of living in the UK. Others can come here work at excessive levels and return home more financially independent then if they had stayed at home. Or they can stay here gain UK citizenship, and thus have access to UK benefits even if they return back to their homes and home countries; this is extremely valuable when it comes to pensions and health care. In both situations they have the option of enjoying a future better quality of life back in their homelands than if they stayed in the UK. Not a bad for 15 years illegal working in the UK, 10 years of legal working in the UK, or 7 years after given birth in the UK. A UK citizen does not have that luxury of duel nationality, and being able to enjoy a higher standard of living in their home country as those migrants on the same level of UK state benefit. It makes one think that in the future UK citizens will be selling family homes to pay inheritance tax to pay benefits for migrants living in their family homes abroad.

Unlimited immigration has brought about many changes. We are told that it has enriched our culture.Well it certainly has changed it.Our language now includes: Yardies,Triads, Fatwah,Jihad, suicide bomber to name a few. Our traditions have changed,instead of Christmas we have Winter Festival and are told that it must be downscaled so as not to offend the immigrants.But the real reason that it is allowed on such a scale is to provide employers with cheap labour.

Would someone please nail the lie regarding the economic benefits of mass immigration. Although the overall economy has increased the benefit per capita for the whole of the uk population is at best neutral but probably much lower. This per capita measure is only true way of determining the economic benefit to the uk. What are the true figures? Does anyone know?
Low paid immigrant workers are of great benefit to employers and more affulent members of society but have a devastating effect on the incomes of already hard pressed indigenous low paid workers.
We are often told that immigrant workers will take on jobs that our own people won't do. What should be said is that our own people won't do these jobs at the very low pay and poor working conditions on offer. Why should British people be forced into this predicament? This all very reminicent of the 1930's when workers would wait outside factories to take the job of someone sacked for not working hard enough.
We should also ask about the effects on the donor countries. Their young people and skilled workers are coming to Britain and causing untold damage to their economies.
It is about time Britain invested in its own people and stopped its parasitic explotation of immigrants and our own low paid people.

What possessed politicians to beleieve that by allowing in thousands of people with a totally different culture and beliefs would enhance the indiginous population's life? One only has to go to Bradford, Southall,Moss side etc. to see that these people do not want to integrate. Of course there have been thousands of hardworking successful immigrants, but New Labour abolished our borders and we now have anything up to 1/2 million illegals let alone those whose beliefs are that their religion and culture has to be accepted by the host nation or they will use violence against us.We have dodgy morals and little religion and, thanks to our MPs, a civil war is all we can look forward to. No-one will talk about immigration because New labour will shout Racist. It seems to be OK to bomb the S**T out of Muslims but don't mention immigrants. Who said politicians werent stupid? This Country has lost it's identity.

Surely more immigrants will need more schools and more health care which in turn will need more immigrants who will need more schools and more health care which in turn will need more immigrants etc etc
Then they will grow old needing .....
When animals are or feel overcrowded they injure each other, self harm or commit suicide
I do worry

Let me offer you some quotes from a childrens' book I'm reading that was written in 1977. The quote is taken from a conversation between the father of a boy who was harrassing an Indian boy, and the father of the boys who defended him.
"I see a lot of them at work...not much I don't know about Indians and Pakkies after all these years....I'll be honest with you, I don't think they should be here, them or the West Indians. Got no right, have they? Taking jobs that should go to Englishmen, with the country in the state it is...And all of them having babies free on the National Health Service, at the British Taxpayers expense." Now putting aside the fact that here in 1977 - 30 years ago - we were talking about Indians, Pakistanis and West Indians, doesn't it all sound very familiar?
Yet somehow the country didn't fall apart then from all that mass of immigration, and now we have something similar happening, only this time it is Poles and other Eastern Europeans, why are we getting ourselves all worked up all over again? If we really did learn lessons from our own recent past we'd know there was nothing to worry about.
If anyone is interested, the book is Susan Cooper's "Silver on the Tree".

The nature and scale of this question mean that immigration has become the most important issue facing Britain, and all other Western countries. Do we want our countries to stay Western and liberal, or not? Do we want southeastern England to look like a set from Soylent Green?
The answer is blindingly simple - we need to restrict legal immigration, deport illegal immigrants, and end the so-called 'multicultural' policies that have perpetuated ethnic division. It is entirely legitimate for Westerners to seek to preserve the civilization that has been bequeathed to them. It is possible that Britain has an outstanding moral duty in some parts of the world where imperialism left an unfortunate legacy, but this duty can be discharged more practically than by giving into spasms of ethnic guilt.

IMMIGRATION is great for this country,the immigrants coming in work so much harder than the locals, and for much less pay than us greedy British Citizens.Just because our grandfathers worked down a mine or slaved away in some other godforsaken industry,doesn't give us the right to stop anyone else coming in and enjoying the benefits.I'm really looking forward to working until I am 66 to draw my pension, when I left school at 16 I understood I would have to work for 49 years until retirement,but whats an extra year,might as well make it a round 50. It will help pay for the benefits of the poor Somalian woman on the channel 4 documentary presented by John Snow,who was finding it really difficult to live on £30000.00 of benefits a year.I Know her six kids will grow up and love this country and respect its laws. We can now build on all that wasted green belt land to house all the highly skilled people coming into the country,I'm sure thats what would happen if I moved abroad!

One wonders how this can be a 'reasoned' debate when only the 3 main Parties can answer questions. in the end, they all sing from the same hymn-sheet and fob us off with sound-bites (repeat them often enough and they'll become true?).
I don't want to hear:"Immigrants
do the jobs that lazy Britons won't do"
Rather, they should ask themselves who encouraged the benefit culture to flourish, and why? And stop lumping all out of work British under this label, other reasons include off-shoring many of our erstwhile industries and firms, redundancy so that firms can employ cheaper migrant workers, and even, in a couple of recent instances:"because you're English" and: "because you don't speak Polish"!

A second mantra states:"We are a country of immmigrants, always have been"; well, if you look into earlier migrations, you will find that they were a mere trickle, and all from Europe and Scandinavia over many centuries, not a few short decades. Even so, there was objection to each, but because they were not set over the indigenous population they assimilated into our culture quite quickly -they had to. They also brought some of their own culture which, because again it was not set above our own, was gradually absorbed.

A third sound-bite I expect to hear will be: "Unless we address these issues, a far-right Party like the 'odious' BNP will exploit it"
I would like to know why it is 'addressing the problem' when it is the Lab/Con/Lib Party, but oddly becomes 'exploiting' when it is anyone else? I would also like to why Mr. Brown can use 'British jobs for British workers now? And why Mr. Cameron appears to want to address the immigration issue but then sacks a Party member for bringing up a quote by a former Conservative? Is he being sincere in his concerns?

I would like to think that this debate will get us somewhere but I've got an awful feeling that it has been put in place to convince viewers and listeners that the 3 main Parties at last have the situation in hand, and we can thankfully sink back into our trusting apathy, and safely vote for them. They are rattled, but not I think about immigration; their Nemesis is more likely much closer to home.

Immigration has long been a common pont of discussion at grass roots level. Sadly whenever a politician has raised the subject he is immediately categorated as a demon racist. Enoch Powell, Peter Griffiths and even Winston Churchill Jnr have been treated dreadfully for their efforts to bring the subject into general discussion.

I would ask just what has happened to the Trade Unions. Having won their fight for a minimum hourly rate, are they not concerned that such as Chinese Winkle Pickers are not only working for less but in effect lowering wages offered to Britiish workers. Are they happy about a two tier wages structure even if it encompasses a threat to British jobs ?

I have just seen the BBC News. So much of our News screen is directly attributed to the results of uncontrolled immigration. The Demenzes affair would not have happened if he had been sent home at the end of his work permit, but why was he in this country in the first place ? Reported crime regularly arises from immigrant misbehaviour.

Whilst we wend home the occasional illegal, usually with money in his pocket, he will encourage others to try their luck in the UK. We should begin to send them home penniless. That might well discourage others !

Why are only the 3 main parties appearing - why not the BNP and Respect so we can hear all sides on this and see for ourselves who is credible?

Firstly, I think many of the problems relating to immigration stem from a complete lack of accurate and meaningful information. It's impossible to have any kind of rational debate if there's no data to base a point-of-view upon. I'd assume that most rational British people don't want to see an extreme policy on immigration - either a complete ban on immigration or completely free immigration - so the question boils down to "how many?". And without sensible information, it's impossible to even consider if levels of immigration are too high, or too low.

Secondly, I think there's a somewhat justified perception that British citizens are being treated unfairly. And this goes beyond the usual knee-jerk reaction about migrants queue-jumping housing lists. For example, British citizens migrating to Australia, New Zealand or Canada are subject to a rigorous points-system, designed to make sure that migrants both bring skills and limit the potential economic drawn. This doesn't seem to happen here.

Thirdly, the general level of policy insanity does nothing to breed tolerance and integration. For example, using tax-payers money to pay for endless translators just reinforces the view that migrants are a drain on resources, and don't want to integrate.

And finally, it seems as if the climate of political correctness means that wanting to live in a country that's united through a common language and a wider set of values is somehow racist!

bla bla bala bala bla bla bla bla bla bla bala bla bla bla bla bla bla la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la al does not the BBC have anything else than immigration and how long this immigration debate will go on. i kmow your first you having this .

In 20 years time will England still be described as a green and pleasant land?

How many people can you get in a mini before it becomes uncomfortable, or put another way, how many people can we cram onto this tiny island?

Why won't polititions put a number on what immigration should be?

The English are trusting, believe in fair play, help the under dog and are very welcoming. The world knows this and exploits it. Jean Charles de Menezes, an illegal immigrant, illegally working in the UK, accidentally shot, gaining full protection of UK law and the family full UK compensation. This can only happen in the UK, nowhere else. The Olympics, great we won it, unfortunately nothing more than an opportunity to promote some tin-pot town-hall pseudo-socialist political correct vision of the vocally active self-selecting self-serving sub-set of the sheltered and privileged middle class who’s only interest is inflating their own ego’s and position by being the champions of those not in their position. Nothing more than conscience shifting, and it is these people that carry the conscience of our now morally corrupted nation.
Immigration is a political tool, an economic cosh, and the rivers of blood are only being damned by our increasingly stretched police and security services, who are being asked to defend a country that is no longer theirs and no longer recognize.

Do you think an English immigrant would stand a fair chance in foreign lands as a foreigner stands here?

I know; we all know the answer of that. To spell it out, the answer is N O .

So what the hell are we doing?

We are a little island full to capacity. Immigration must be more controlled. Where I live in Southampton, I am often the "white minority" when I walk down the street. We are expected to fall over backwards to accommodate foreigners' customs, beliefs etc. If we go to a foreign land we quite rightly respect that country's customs. They come here and expect us to change ours. What is so infuriating is that WE DO otherwise we are taken to Court.

It seems strange that we have the power to deport all Commonwealth Servicemen who have served in the British Armed Forces and yet we do not have the power or ability to deport convicted rapists....murderers or plane hijackers. Any bets that the family of de Menezes will soon be demanding to stay in this country?

Immigrants are fine. What aren't needed are increased gun crime, honour killings, gangs, and gangmasters and the like.

We live on a small island; we just do not have the area of land which many other coutries have. This Country is now so over-crowded that it is thoroughly unpleasant. Politicians simply do not realise how unpleasant life is for the ordinary citizen - they do not live in the real world as do the rest of us; they are protected from all the unpleasantness. Immigration must be stopped immediately and all asylum seekers and illegal immigrants deported. There is no country with whom we share a border from which it is necesary for anyone to flee for protection. AS many as possible of those foreigners who have settled here should be encouraged to return from whence they came. Those who stay must accept that this is a Christian Country and abide by our laws and our culture. We would never expect any other country to adapt itself to us. Those gathering at Calais and on the French coast must be told they are not wanted here and all the financial benefits for which they come here and which they see as inducements must be stopped. They only come for what they can get. It would be far better if the politicians of all the better-off countries took determined steps to improve the lot of the indigenous peoples of those foreign countries from which these would-be immingrants originate; then they would have no need to come here. It would be far more cost-effective in the long run and would improve the quality of life for all the peoples of those countries, not just the ones who can afford to spend thousands of pounds to gain entry to this country illegally. We must also leave the EU and take back control of our borders.

The migration of people to the UK more than to any other EU country suggests the following:
1. the UK was the most active colonial player. Migrants often go to countries with who they had a past colonial relationship.
2. the UK thus siphoned the riches of other countries during the colonial relationship leaving the former colonies in a state of economic depletion
3. the UK continues to sponsor dissent in Africa in the name of democracy, thus increasing rather than reducing internal tension and persecution and so increasing the flow of people to it
4. increased immigration in this case is the price the UK has to pay for the mess created by the colonial experiment and the blatant world destabilising agenda in order to maintain economic and political supremacy
5. the solution to migration lies not in quick fix strategies such as placing caps on border entries but on long term efforts to restore and rebuild the wealth bases of the countries from which migrants come.

I live in the south of England where the goverment are insisting a huge number of houses to be built.WHY.One can only think it is to mainly house the increasing immigration population coming here. The trouble is our inferstructure in the south CANNOT handle the increase in so much housing.
I live in West Sussex, our road system is diabolical (the govt have no plans to look at the overloaded A27 until 2016), we have constant shortage of water, the govt want to downgrade our hospitals and our schools are full, I think the govt have messed up, BIG TIME.

We neither desire nor need immigration. This country was never asked if we wanted to change its entire population, instead it was foisted on the population by the metropolitain elite wihout any regard for the British people.

We can't have a proper debate on immigration as the liberal establishment has imposed on us draconian "Race relations" Acts, which really limit free speech for those who want to resist against this tyranny.

Britain for the British!

All opinion polls show that the electorate are in majority agreement on the immigration policies of the BNP, far bigger than any of the main parties,so no debate can be called genuine without the majority views of the electorate.

Your pro immigration speakers will tell us yet again that immigration has contributed to economic growth and of course this is true, but it's only part of the picture.
Any population increase obviously causes a comensurate increase in goods and services in order to satisfy the greater demand, but this does not equate to an increase in our prosperity as individuals. In other words the National cake may get bigger, but it has to be shared out between more people. Employers have gained by the system but Brits at the lower end of the jobs market have suffered.

I am Polish. There thousands of my countrymen who went to work in Britain and neighbouring Ireland within last two years. They mostly get jobs in fields and businesses where British citizens already didn't want to work: bus drivers, nursery homes, bars and restaurants, agriculture, construction sites, etc. All these, well qualified and genrally well educated people left their country to improve their economic situation. They work in UK, they pay taxes there, and spent earned money. Is it wrong they came to UK? 60 years ago their fathers fled to Britain too. They joined Britons hand in hand to fight the common enemy. Did they do something wrong? Is it wrong that people look for better future?
Poles and others come to work in Britain. Britons come to visit Poland, but I am sure my countrymen do not behave in Britain the way British citizens behave themselves in pubs, restaurants and hotels while spending time and money in POland. Perhaps it is good for our people to come to Britain and teach some Britons how should they represent the country they presumably are proud of.

153. At 11:31 PM on 07 Nov 2007, Jason Day wrote:

'But especially the BBC in particular and not so much other media going on about John Charles Demenezies.

He was an illegal immigrant, once legal until his work visa had expired!
How many more illegals are working here evading tax and costing the honest tax paying burdened public.'

I assume Mr. Day refers to Jean Charles de Menezes. Just what the hell blowing away an innocent man has to do with immigration is beyond me, but if the discussion has sunk to this level, is it really worth the candle?

Immigration aside, the country is bursting at the seems. Anyone regardless of nationality who faces the mind boggling traffic jams in & out of work everyday will have to agree that our infrastructure simpoly cannot take anymore. Quality of life is not all about how many £££'s you have in your pocket but also about free space, open country side and the ability to get there to enjoy it. something our politicians seem to conveniently ignore.

The fact is if there was no need for immigration it would not be happening, when you next shop at one of the big supermarket stores just ask yourself how it got picked and packed 99% certain it was done by an economic immigrant probably from Poland being paid the minimum wage.

I would like to know why certain politicians have chosen to make what is a market driven issue into a political one.

So those xenophobes and racists can't use the prejudices of colour of skin anymore, they now move on from "white of skin" to "white of mind", as long as you still think exactly like this mythical fantasy version we have of ourselves.

Or they make excuses about resource management, but instead of sincerely targeting the specific issues, they wrap the whole debate around it, if you only care about resources, then stop these people having access to health, work and benefits or any other such resources, so that only the rich, strong and prepared will come or at least survive

Don't these any immigrants believe in evolution or competition (as illustrated in life and business), don't they realise diversity and pluralism makes strength, equips all for any challenge rather than the repeatedly pure-breds with insular minds and bodies, or do they simply believe in a wider incest!

It's a question of how narrowly you see the world and history.

Yours kindly,

Shakir Razak

Immigration statistics are all lies. Look at the population of any major city and at least 30-40% are immigrants.

If you include children who are, in my opinion, still immigrants britain is fast closing on a 50% immigrant population.

Immigration has failed since the 40's we have had a very poor return from immigration, now costing at least £20bn a year. No immigrant is needed until our unemployment drops through relative zero (probably 4-500,000)every immigrant allowed in in this scenario is a school leaver thown to the dogs, Labour are very good at that and both opposition parties will be as bad.

Gordon Brown is going to spend 8bn on so called affordable houses- taxpayers money thrown onto the immigration heap. We need an immediate end to assylum which is illegal in EU law (all of the displaced should be accommodated by the nearest country of relief)return all those illegals who came through France/Belgium/Spain etc back to those countries, with suitable fines to stop the practice. Then to repatriate anyone not in full time employment who has arrived in the last 10 years. Furthermore any law breaker should be deported having lost all human rights by virtue of their crime. Any new arrivals should be employed through our embassies before they arrive in UK They will be forced to have medical insurance cover and pay 10% more tax for a qualification period of 5 years. Enforce this with a mandatory 10 years and £1m for any employer found paying an illegal to work.

We should Galvanise and incentivise our industries to follow the example that allowed us to dominate world markets by using our brains. Low wages stiffle innovation and innovation and Britain were synonymous with world development.

Immigration is a con trick - get a grip or be prepared to live like a third world nation. 75million officially will be 85-90million (heaven spare us all)

Has the politicians got any idea of how many EU immigrants are in the country? Each day coach loads of EU immigrants are arriving into UK without any restriction.Its been widely spoken that the number of EU immigrants are far higher than the official figures? How the EU immigrants figures are collated when there isn't any control in the first place? What's the effect of this mass migration on our schools, hospitals, public services etc. How the treasury is taking into account EU migrants claim for tax credit and other benefits? Is the government in a position to answer these questions??

Research indicates the optimum sustainable GB population is 30m.
Just as the Chinese government foresaw the horrible dangers of an unsustainable population so should ours and take whatever action is necessary. For example in my family we stopped at one (child).

Global warming will decimate food production in Africa so we must ensure we can feed ourselves and regain control of a strong anti-immigration policy.

Because of rising Immigration the Country's Public Services and Infrastructure is at breaking point. We need to close the borders now and not accept any more for at least ten years. People who come to work here and any dependents must speak English.
We also need to track down and remove illegal immigrants. Unskilled British workers suffer lower wages and higher unemployment because of competition from migrants.
We need to train school leavers in skills. eg - plumbing and other trades so we don't need mass immigration.
Finally we don't need more houses built because of immigration, the whole country will eventually be covered in concrete. We must keep our green belt.

Manufactring in Great Britain without cheap immigrant labouris is impractial,China has stpprd that, but there is no excuse for it in the 'service' industries as the wages are low enough as it stands and can only slows wage increses down
It is time to call a halt and train our own youth 'apprentices',this will not happen if the half trained 'men of all trades, master of none are allowed to come here, with their 'employer' rubber stamping their cosmetic work. I have inspected the so called electrical and plumming work,the have a bad habbit of hiding old work under floor boards joined to new so it looks ok. Another excuse put forward is that as a rule they are educated. There will come a time when we will have to educate their offsprings. Asian sub cntinent immigration should cease forthwith as most so called husband/wives are and renmain illiterate.

In my opinion we should adopt the Australian methods of controlling immigration. Briefly, these are:
1. They decide what types of skills are needed.
(and where),and set limits!
2. They encourage those with the skills they
need, and check on their qualifications
before agreeing to allow into their country.
3. They give limited support in finding work,
and short term housing needs, that is SHORT
TERM housing needs.
4. They control strictly illegal immigration.
5. If you are granted a visa to work, and
you "disappear", they kick you out.
6 If you satisfy all their requirements, after
a satisfactory period, they allow you to
apply for Australian nationality.(Having
first demonstrated to their satisfaction
that you are COMMITTED to Australia.
7. One of the ways you have to demonstrate that
you will not "be a burden on the State", is
by demonstrating you have a certain sum of
money, before you are allowed in.
8. You have to abide by the Australian way of
life.If you have a religion, that is your
private matter, but the state is Secular!
9. The benefits of adopting this approach in my
opinion would reduce the British
concentration upon "race issues".
If people wish to work in GB, they should in
my opinion:
a. Agree with, and abide by, the secular
tenets of the British way of life.
b. Agree that Law, not religion, will be
their motivation.
c. Realise that they will have to demonstrate
that they have skills that Britain needs.
Also, that if there skills are not required,
then their application will be refused.
We have enough persons already doing menial
jobs, we should be encouraging only those
who are particularly skilled, and
discouraging those with no skills or
qualifications, as currently we can provide
enough of this category internally.
d.Finally, we should actively discourage
those persons coming here who are from
areas such as Pakistan/Afghanistan/Middle
East etc.,(the breeding ground of terrorist
organisations) and also should be
discouraging the practice of arranged
marriages from similar locations, as it is
reported that the males gaining access to
GB under these circumstances have little
grasp of the British democratic way of life,
and generally fail to integrate.
e. Also schools should only support the
British way of life, and encourage
immigrant children in the Secular British
way of life. This should mean that religion
should definitely not be part of the
schools curriculum, as this is a private
matter for individuals only.
Only in my opinion by demonstrating that
immigration into Britain will be governed by
strict requirements as described above, will
the immigration debate be defused, as people
coming to Britain begin to see that our way
of life is not an optional extra, but a
mandatory requirement for their entry.
If this was to be adopted, there would be
less animosity towards immigrants from
whatever background.

Investing in the conuntries where migrants come from could create jobs, money, infrastructure, stability and pride enough to make potential migrants make it worth staying home rather than coming to the UK where the grass IS greener.

Immigrants may be benefitting the country financially in the job market but they are systematically destroying social services, especially housing and the NHS. The government cares nothing for the public's problems but is only interested in looking after the business world therefore they are perfectly happy to allow endless immigation. Countries are delighted to dump all their criminals and similar undesirables on us. Sadly, we are stupid enough to welcome them in to destroy what is left of this once great country.

Shouldn't we be asking what is wrong with British workers and their eductaion, not closing the door to entrepreneurial foreigners? ?

If more than half the new jobs created in the UK have gone to foreigners - many of whom were born under eastern European communism and grew up during a time of incredible political change - shouldn't we be asking what is wrong with the British system? Are we giving the right skills - both in terms of job skills and life skills, or "attitude"?

The UK has undoubtedly becoome a much more entrepreneurial economy in the decade or so since the fall of the Berlin Wall, but have British workers changed?

This from the FT.com Westminster blog:

Gordon Brown, to his credit, has presided over an enterprise economy where hard work is rewarded. People who come to Britain on long distance buses - leaving their homes and families for a foreign culture - are almost by definition hard-working and enterprising.

Mr Brown can talk all he likes about apprenticeships and working with business to find work for inactive Brits. But if foreigners prefer the kind of red-blooded enterprise economy he has created to the locals, he may find himself running into a brick wall.

I moved to the UK in 2003 from Montreal, Quebec to pursue a masters degree - which I payed a whopping £15000 for. I have stayed on working and completing a second degree also at the same exorbitant price. I am now working in Glasgow. I pay taxes and pay for expensive work permits to stay here. I am contributing to your economy but have few rights. I cannot claim income support or allowance. When I arrive home from a holiday in Europe I am questioned and if I want to marry my partner I am required to fill in a certificate of approval. All my life I have wanted to live in the UK but the more rhetoric I hear from the David Cameron, the Tories and the press makes me think that perhaps I should re-think my decision to make my life here - it makes me think that I am not wanted here.

I used to live in UK during the period when MP Mr.Enoch Powell wanted to deport all immigrants. I left for USA in 1970. My frequent visits to UK convinced me what your 62% respondents believe: - "Britain would lose its unique identity if immigration continues at its present rate". Some kind of contnrol is necessary to check the flow. Though it is very true now as it was then,in 1960s and 1970s, that without the Asian immigrants British Medical System would be collapsed. And without the African immigrants the transport system would come to a complete halt. I agree that British Govt. is not doing a great job on immigration as 72% believe. On the other hand, I think that it's also true that immigrants are not doing their best to assimilate in the society and count themselves as British Nationals or whatever and help make Britain a prosperous and a secured place for all to live happily.

Will someone ask a senior labour politician tonight how economic migrants are of any value. If the majority are paid £6 an hour (and not exploited by their own) they have disposable incomes of £250ish.

These people are those in society who need tax breaks help with housing more likely to need medical assistance we go on.

Britain plc needs to look to the bigger picture if we have fields of strawberries which can't be picked don't grow them. Grow a crop which we can use our ingenuity to harvest mechanically sell that on the world market and buy strawberries from Poland picked in Poland by Poles. No detriment to predominantly catholic Poles who integrate very well, save a few fights.

Cheap labour is the death of any high value economy it murders invention.

We have not gained culturally from immigration. The vast majority of people in this country are resistant to change. Colour is NOT an issue. We accept Poles, etc. more readily than, say, Afghans, simply because of their readiness to integrate. There can be very few people in this country who do not accept, for example, Moira Stuart. She may value her heritage but she is totally integrated into the UK. Please take colour out of the whole debate and concentrate on integration. Though, of course, there needs to be limits!

What has become undeniable from these posts is that democracy has become a sham and that Nu-lab never has nor ever will do what it is by law mandated to do,that is to rule in the intrests and wishes of the electorate,which must make Nu-lab the most dangerous and extreme "goverment" in the history of democracy, a goverment voted in and supported by a minority,obsessed with minority issues,imposed on the majority against their wishes.

It seems to me that there has been a very real effort to brainwash the British people over the problems of immigration. We are constantly told that immigrants are good for us, but that is not the general opinion of the man on the street who sees the problems mass immigration causes.

The South-east of England is now sinking under the weight of incomers who are filling only a 'skills shortage' of cheap labour. I do not believe for one moment that our alleged prosperity is increased by this influx but even if that were the case it would be time to take a drop in GNP in order to save what is left of our country.

Nigel Hasltilow spoke for the vast majority of the British people last week when he quoted Enoch Powell on the menace immigration. No surprise, therefore, that he has been trashed by his own party.

Anyone with an elementary - and I mean elementary - grasp of history will see the multi-culturalism promoters for what they are - dangerously irresponsible sowers of potential future nightmares. Human beings are way too tribal, territorial and primitive to be mixed all together in this manner. The negative experiences of mixed race/religion based societies range from tensions and resentments through to racial violence, riots and sometimes ethnic cleansing and genocide. Yugoslavia? Rwanda? Idi Amin's expulsion of Asians? Nazi Germany? India during partition? Sectarian violence in N Ireland or Iraq? Ancient Alexandria in the time of the Caesars when Jews and Greeks in the city rioted and murdered one another? A thousand other places whose horrors will never be known to history? This could never happen in the UK you say? Not now sure, but in the distant future perhaps when this island may be unrecognisable economically, socially and politically. If it does ever happen here future generations will curse the multi-culturalists and their starry-eyed naive fantasies.

IMMIGRATION

We need a social, economic and environment assessment of the impact of (national and international) migration.

On Autumnwatch they seem to know exactly how many starlings, pink-footed geese and whooper swans migrate to, from and within the UK, their origin, where they are, their dependents, environmental impact, etc.

Why can't government manage this given the benefit that (almost) every person entering and exiting the UK has a formal id document, and workers moving within the UK (should) leave NI and income tax trails.

This isn't Big Brother, simply statistics.

Impossible, difficult or expedient?

for gods sake UK smell the roses and wake up.

Until this century Britain was a mix of Europeans with minute additions all tollerable.

since selling ourselves to pay for a war we have made the most savage and unwarranted population changes. Our immigrant neighbours out breed us and will inevitably become the majority.

What then happens when the equally inevitable global warming displaces half of Africa which will be a 45deg dust bowl.

Immigration… it's just history repeating itself, these people have sometimes risked their lives for the sake of a better future for themselves and their families, in the not too distant past it was the Irish, then people from the Caribbean and so on that were 'taking our jobs, women and houses,' It deflects from the real issue of disadvantage, poverty and scarce resources, which some so called politicians have been only too happy to highlight the problems of immigrants to add fuel to the fire of discrimination. Stop using the excuse that they are a burden on public services they pay taxes so they should be accommodated for. What about all the new, middle-class invasions on our towns and cities? Have they added to the public services? No they have just put more pressure on local services like Dr’s Surgeries and yet have give nothing back in return, why don’t we have a debate about this?
Immigrants do not have the same rights to housing as a UK citizen, it's a fallacy but equally the criteria to obtain local authority housing is so strict that pockets of disadvantaged neighbourhoods have emerged, where resources are so scarce that when new arrivals are put in to the area it's inevitable that there will be conflict, Poverty is the issue here abandon the idea that we own this land and instead of showing hostility to new arrivals how about we welcome them? Many neighbourhoods where indigenous people have flocked have been brought back to life because immigrants have had no choice but to live there because of racist housing policies that existed. Run down houses have been rejuvenated with a soul of their own and I must add, against Government's appraisal of the issue, show ample community activity and cohesion just not the dominant middle-class type!

Many British people now feel like foreigners in their own country. This is a shameful and unnatural situation. There are very few people on this earth of any colour or creed who would be happy to see their society swamped with immigrants and their culture and way of life displaced and undermined - but of course the needs of business, the targets of politicians and (in Britain at least) the 'consciences' of hand-wringing liberals (BBC take note) take precedence over what ordinary people want. So much of what we call 'multi-culturalism' is just spin, the re-branding of deeply unpopular social trends.

Well, looking skimmingly at this comment thread I make it to be perhaps 4-to-1 (at least) in favour of some major restriction on immigration, and plenty of thoughtful posters make such a case well enough.

But this being the BBC I wonder will anything of these POVs find their way into the broadcast? Given that a trailer I just caught on R5 framed the debate in terms of "1 million workers...a 6 billion pound boost to the economy" and given the Mutual Consensus among the big 3 parties invited on, I suspect the liberal establishment will close ranks to invalidate any other possible POV about matters that affect this country's future & present.

I note a poster claims that boosting the birth-rate has been the secret agenda of the open-borders chaos. Sounds plausible but why not explicitly encourage those sectors of the indigenous pop'n that are markedly failing to replace themselves to do so? Better social eng'g of that sort than the present funeral-pyre-building kind.

It is absurd to say that there should be no limits on immigration. Theoretically the numbers could be absolutely enormous. David Blunkett said 'let the market decide', in other words 'nothing to do with the government'. It is indefensible, that Parliament, never mind the British people, was not given the opportunity to debate our policy on the New European member states. We may have decided to have, like almost all the other existing EEC members, quotas if only to start the process with caution. Now, if the debate were to conclude that there are too many immigrants, it is probably too late to do anything about it. Talk about making Government policy retrospectvely ! And PS : quite why will it take until 2014 to introduce exit controls so we sensibly know who has left the UK ?

Reimer - From my POV, far more of the pop'n would be socially eng'nearable if they knew what the hell you were 'riting ab't'

The true cost of un checked immigration has not even begone to be calculated.
If we dont even have the correct numbers, how can we have any idea about the following :-

a/. How much tax is being paid or avoided by immigrants and intuitively, if mainly the former, how is this giving them an unfair advantage over British workers.

b/. How much crime is caused by immigrants. Most police forces report a huge increase in all crime in areas of high immigration.

c/.How many immigrants are driving in the U.K without a valid driving License or any insurance.

There are two types of people in this world; the exploiters and the exploited. It is an uncomfortable fact that those with the power and wealth in the UK have when no longer able to use their own to exploit the world, have used the world to exploit their own. I am sure the readers of Marx and the retired grand dukes of the KGB must be laughing quietly to themselves, as the redistribution of wealth and the long term undermining of the UK economy is being done for them by the very leaders, laws makers, financiers and opinion formers of the nation that founded modern capitalism.

Something we can learn form Saudi is that great wealth, high expectations, good education leads to radicalisation, when a nation seeks to use well paid transient foreign labour across the whole economy in failure of patiently developing its own people. It is a myth that we don’t have the skills, we do, but they have been squandered, wasted through deindustrialisation and lack of investment and commitment. You will find many former foremen and post-graduates driving cabs, attending car boot sales or working in telesales. We are all too ready to put our own down, employ the new from abroad; unskilled, skilled, professional, the lot. Not just from Poland, Russia, West Africa or Asia, but from Brazil, America, South Africa and Australia, all trade on the myth that our own are not good enough, but also perceived much easier to dispose of when older as they are bound to return back home. We have been too ready to write our own off and promote the import. If you’re over 40 you are written off; too many temporary jobs, written off; gaps in employment, written off; travelled abroad for more than 6 months, written off. A British citizen has a history, a foreigner not, and if that history can be questioned, well you are at a disadvantage, written off. This leads to a demoralised, de-motivated population that lacks confidence and commitment, and ultimately see’s no social responsibility when it finds it self stuck in the benefit trap, made worse by cheap foreign labour.

When we were an imperial power we colonised huge parts of the world exploiting its resources, some of the native elite profiteered and in return we brought our laws, infrastructure, investment and culture. These new nations eventually wanted to retain their wealth and rejected our colonisation, ours laws, our investment and our culture; they considered us invaders and throw us out. These actions were preceded and proceeded by bloody civil unrest. Some nations never recovered. Now left to manage they own affairs these ex-colonials are in return rejecting their countries and seek to exploit our wealth, colonise us and impose their culture. Can anyone see a fault here, the irony and a disturbing pattern of inevitability?

Yes, I hear the argument of an aging nation and aging population; it is a function of a mature and advanced economy, so what? We should be wiser and smarter; it does not mean we should allow ourselves to be mugged.

If the west truly does or want to stop immigration then they should stop babysisting most unstable government who serves only themself and not the subject their govern

Recently I had my flat painted by two Polish painters running their own business here in the UK. They came in worked really hard and did a fantastic job. It took them two days and half the cost/time of the quote I received from a firm of British painters. In fact their hourly rate was about 20% higher than the British team but the difference was that they worked a full day, not tea breaks every 5 minutes etc.

Get real everyone - its a competitive world out there and in a capitalist society the strongest competition wins. Yes lets restrict entry to the UK so that we only have useful members of society allowed but lets not paint all immigrants with the same brush

I'm an immigrant myself and I know how tough it is to get started and succeed in the UK. I have succeeded though and pay my dues. Lets celebrate the success of immigration and not denigrate the huge contribution immigrants have made to Britain

It is not just a problem of immigration. It more one of over population. This is fueling house price inflation and
an infrastructure of road and rail transport creaking at
the seams with schools and hospitals stretched beyond the limit.
We are often compared with Belgium which is said to have a higher populatuon density than the UK. This is wrong, Belgium's borders are artificial lines drawn on a map. Belgiums population is part of the greater population of the western European land mass and therefore is not comparable. Our borders are a very real coast line. We have a limited land mass and therefore rainfall. We cannot keep building more roads and houses. Our roads are constantly full of traffic or traffic jams, there is often standing room only on trains. Plans to build more houses are questioned by water companies
who cannot increase the water supplies we have. We need to reduce our population, this would of course bring house prices down and cause huge disruption to the economy.

Population desity
Belgium 798 people per sq mile
Germany 604
France 272
Ireland 135
Italy 505
Spain 205
US 75
UK 625

My dispute is with the liberal consensus (which I normally count myself among) shutting down debate on the subject. How come the normally tolerant and progressive sectors of our society turn into fascistic thought-police if their views are questioned?
It is obvious to any open-minded, intelligent human being that there are both advantages and disadvantages to immigration and that to point this out, should not indicate that one is (or is not) a racist.
Nor should anyone be condemned for pointing out that "the people" have had MAJOR changes in their society thrust upon them with no pretence of democratic choice.

I have two Polish immigrants living above me and have had some serious problems with them involving the Police.

I don't believe that they are bad people but just that they are not given sufficient information and support when arriving into the UK.

Why are they not told about the TV License, the Council tax, drink driving laws, recycling rubbish and anti social behaviour issues? If we want to welcome them into the UK we should support them and not stigmatise them and alienate them.

We are to blame in this.

It has taken me over a year to help integrate them into this multi occupied house at great emotional expense and as a tax payer I feel angry that they are being exploited by greedy and mean employers who feed off their ignorance and leave ordinary citizens to do what the establishment should.

Don't blame the individuals, if the government want migrant workers then the business community should pay for a support system of education, advice and help so that we get the best from our immigrant workers which should be funded through taxing the business community. Yes, share holders pay up!

It is so typically 'British' to not 'forward think' and 'pay out' but to exploit and then moan and blame. I'm ashamed of this country and this government that just gets more and more right wing by the minute.

Immigrants are continually blamed for weakening the cohesion of western societies, but this is a nonsense for it suggests that pre- mass immigration the majority white populations of Western European societies lived in relative peace and harmony.

Immigration started in Europe mainly after the 2nd world war. Before the war, in the 1930's the population of western European countries were dominantly white indigenes. This was also the period of probably some of the most poisonous internal hatreds in these societies histories. Parties based on clear cut hatred, - class, region, religion and Nationalism became mass organisations drawing millions to rallies and marches all over the continent, Gentile hated Jew, jew hated Gentile, Heterosexual hated homosexual, catholic hated protestant, protestant hated catholic, the rich hated the poor, the poor hated the rich and the middle classes hated them both. There were no brown or black skinned immigrants to fuel this hate or 'divide society'. The 'cohesive' indigenes managed that pretty well by themselves

If being all the same generates harmony how do you explain a period in Europe’s history where being 'the same' produced Bolshevism, fascism, civil wars, endless coup detats, Totalitarianism, and 2 world wars that killed almost 100 million people in just over 20 years. And lets not forget before that period the endless programs against the Jews (white like the majority)

The idea of pre-immigration social cohesion in Europe is a myth. The individual populations of different countries only engaged in social harmony during the brief periods they were slashing each others throats across their borders. Outside those times social revolts, religious bigotry,class mistrust and national progroms were the order of life in Europe.

Of course economic development after the war eased all those hatreds. But is it just a coincidence that the post war economic development occurred at the same time as millions of cheap immigrant labour flowed into the major European nations, Arabs in France, Turks in Germany and Asians and blacks into Britain. Far from being beneficiaries of prosperity, immigrants were the cause of it.

The indigenous populations of Europe have never been as happy with each other (no wars, no barricades, no insurrectionary general strikes, no coups no popular demagogues) as they are now with large immigrant populations in their societies.

You can get rid of all of us, you've got the power, but the genie of hate you unleash will not go calmly back into the bottle once we are gone, it will turn on your societies and consume them as it did 70 years ago. The presence of 'visitors' in Europe’s midst has meant its indigenes have been on their best behaviour, if the visitors are kicked out of the continent, country by country this continent will turn on itself again in another orgy of endless self destruction - before immigration that was the only world it knew.

A sensible society must take a holistic view of immigration and control that immigration to meet the needs of all elements of that society. Such an overview must of necessity encompass social, cultural as well as economic considerations. Our dilemma is that we as a society have had the gross misfortune to be governed by a party which as a matter of policy, , threw open our doors to anyone and everyone. There was no control, no consideration for the indigenous populous and no attempt to consult that populous. The result is a chaotic influx of peoples that now serious threatens to undermine the cohesion of our society. It is imperative that we recognize the stupidity of the open door policy and replace it immediately with a considered one which meets our quantitative and qualitative needs. That means reducing total immigration to more manageable proportions and focusing upon those people that can meet our economic needs , integrate into our democratic political system and will be at ease with our Judeo-Christian value based culture.