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Talk about Newsnight

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Wednesday, 7 March, 2007

  • Newsnight
  • 7 Mar 07, 06:39 PM

lords203100.jpgMPs have voted on Lords reform; voters have been going to the polls to elect new members to the Northern Ireland Assembly; and we profile Nicholas Sarkozy, the man who wants to be the next French president.

All that plus a shocking lead story which, at the time of writing, we can’t reveal details of.

Comment on Wednesday’s programme here.

Comments  Post your comment

  • 1.
  • At 08:32 PM on 07 Mar 2007,
  • Trisha Rodgers wrote:

Yet more interferance from New Labour - the party that know what is good for you!!!!

The Lords have served us very well for many many years but New Labour like to fix things that are working well. They obviously have not heard the saying "If it is working dont fix it".

This is more evidence of New Labour's inferior complex.

  • 2.
  • At 09:11 PM on 07 Mar 2007,
  • Maurice - Northumberland wrote:

I echo Trisha - adding now the rest of the Politicians which have joined the ranks of Constutional Vandals.

The UK what UK, Great Britain what Great Britain, both have been shredded in their collective inverted snobbery and haste in not taking the country forward as they will say, but backwards.

Why do they hate Britain so much, Why do they hate the history that put the Great in Britain?

I can only assume that the Monarchy itself is next for the Clunking Great Fist of Liberal Socialism.

Russia wasted 70 years and here we are 10 years into the same wasteland.

How many Brits in Britain, let alone England will find this to be their final straw, pack up and follow those who have already left?
There have been many final Straws over the decade, hence the mass emmigrational exodus - this WILL be another for somemore!

  • 3.
  • At 09:56 PM on 07 Mar 2007,
  • Philip wrote:

I speak as a working class lefty - liberal, but I think the House of Lords should be left as it is.

It isn't perfect, but if it ain't broke, don't try and fix it.

  • 4.
  • At 10:59 PM on 07 Mar 2007,
  • Andrew F wrote:

The "shocking lead story" is the worst Newsnight piece I have ever seen. There is no story, certainly no controversy, no evidence, and the supposed victim doesn't even remember what happened.

A terrible piece of journalism.

  • 5.
  • At 11:09 PM on 07 Mar 2007,
  • Andrew F wrote:

The "shocking lead story" is the worst Newsnight piece I have ever seen. There is no story, certainly no controversy, no evidence, and the supposed victim doesn't even remember what happened.

A terrible piece of journalism.

  • 6.
  • At 11:10 PM on 07 Mar 2007,
  • Richard H wrote:

I have just watched your piece on the supposed 'beating' of a young thug by police officers - probably the most biased, outrageoous piece I have ever seen on our national broadcaster.

This is a total nothing story. The police officer was clearly doing his job - striking an aggressive, drunken, spitting woman's arm who had grabbed his genitals. Good for him - he should actually be given a medal, not criticised.

The BBC should be ashamed of itself for running this story and making totally unfounded links to race riots in the US. What is the basis for alleging racism in this case?! In fact, I think Newsnight has totally unnecessarily provoked racial tensions, undermined handworking police officers and should broadcast an apology.

  • 7.
  • At 11:16 PM on 07 Mar 2007,
  • Richard H wrote:

I have just watched your piece on the supposed 'beating' of a young thug by police officers - probably the most biased, outrageoous piece I have ever seen on our national broadcaster.

This is a total nothing story. The police officer was clearly doing his job - striking an aggressive, drunken, spitting woman's arm who had grabbed his genitals. Good for him - he should actually be given a medal, not criticised.

The BBC should be ashamed of itself for running this story and making totally unfounded links to race riots in the US. What is the basis for alleging racism in this case?! In fact, I think Newsnight has totally unnecessarily provoked racial tensions, undermined handworking police officers and should broadcast an apology.

  • 8.
  • At 11:18 PM on 07 Mar 2007,
  • D Williamson wrote:

In regards to the police restraining a seventeen year old woman and repeatedly striking her with a fist. I'm a psychiatric nurse and we have to practice controlled restraint on a regular basis, we don't have any protective clothing like the police, no handcuffs, no batons, no cs sprays, just nurse's uniforms, also we we don't have the backup of police dogs and multiple male police offices. We would have been expected to restrain the woman with only three staff, mostly three female staff. We would not be allowed to strike the person and would most probably be sacked if we ever did. I cannot see why this woman was repeatedly beaten. It's obvious that they were not practicing controlled restraint techniques, so either they hadn't been trained or they chose to use violence instead. To support the Police actions is definitely wrong, the only time it could be justified is if the woman was trying to using a weapon, like a knife or similar.

  • 9.
  • At 11:21 PM on 07 Mar 2007,
  • James wrote:

I am sadend, I have to say, by the scrapping of 800 years of history that looks likley to be the result of this reform- However, for all us traditional types there is a good point that Gerald Kaufman raised, which is that Gordon Brown shall be far to concernding with modern sensible, social pocilies when he becomes Prime Minister, rather than reform in the name of needless 'democracy'.

  • 10.
  • At 11:21 PM on 07 Mar 2007,
  • James wrote:

I am sadend, I have to say, by the scrapping of 800 years of history that looks likley to be the result of this reform- However, for all us traditional types there is a good point that Gerald Kaufman raised, which is that Gordon Brown shall be far to concernding with modern sensible, social pocilies when he becomes Prime Minister, rather than reform in the name of needless 'democracy'.

  • 11.
  • At 11:25 PM on 07 Mar 2007,
  • Michael, Scotland wrote:

Tonight's lead story is possibly the most pointlessly sensationalised piece I have ever seen on Newsnight.
Once again the Guardian has taken an unremarkable news item and turned it into something it isn't.
A young woman is aggressively intoxicated and vandalising cars. A police officer attempts to restrain her and she violently resists. Other officers arrive and the policeman punches her arm five times to deaden it and she is taken away. It all sounds simple enough. Somehow the Guardian, and subsequently Newsnight, brought race into the issue. There was absolutely nothing whatsoever to indicate the policeman hit her because of her race. Are violent white thugs who resist arrest treated to a chat and a cup of tea instead? I think not. Ruggie Johnson, coordinator of The Monitoring Group North said, "I was absolutely shocked when I saw it. It's like something out of the Deep South." And then that it reminded him of the Rodney King incident in Los Angeles. Rodney King was an innocent man and beaten by overtly racist police officers. Ms Comer, who happens to be a different race to the arresting officer, was caught red-handed committing a crime and attacked a policeman. Where is the link to Rodney King? Talk about making a mountain out of a grain of sand.
This kind of sensationalism only fans the flames that divide races and communities and is nothing but detrimental to cultural and race relations.
I expect this kind of journalism from the Guardian but not Newsnight.

  • 12.
  • At 11:26 PM on 07 Mar 2007,
  • Michael S wrote:

Tonight's lead story is possibly the most pointlessly sensationalised piece I have ever seen on Newsnight.
Once again the Guardian has taken an unremarkable news item and turned it into something it isn't.
A young woman is aggressively intoxicated and vandalising cars. A police officer attempts to restrain her and she violently resists. Other officers arrive and the policeman punches her arm five times to deaden it and she is taken away. It all sounds simple enough. Somehow the Guardian, and subsequently Newsnight, brought race into the issue. There was absolutely nothing whatsoever to indicate the policeman hit her because of her race. Are violent white thugs who resist arrest treated to a chat and a cup of tea instead? I think not. Ruggie Johnson, coordinator of The Monitoring Group North said, "I was absolutely shocked when I saw it. It's like something out of the Deep South." And then that it reminded him of the Rodney King incident in Los Angeles. Rodney King was an innocent man and beaten by overtly racist police officers. Ms Comer, who happens to be a different race to the arresting officer, was caught red-handed committing a crime and attacked a policeman. Where is the link to Rodney King? Talk about making a mountain out of a grain of sand.
This kind of sensationalism only fans the flames that divide races and communities and is nothing but detrimental to cultural and race relations.
I expect this kind of journalism from the Guardian but not Newsnight.

  • 13.
  • At 11:29 PM on 07 Mar 2007,
  • Michael S wrote:

Tonight's lead story is possibly the most pointlessly sensationalised piece I have ever seen on Newsnight.
Once again the Guardian has taken an unremarkable news item and turned it into something it isn't.
A young woman is aggressively intoxicated and vandalising cars. A police officer attempts to restrain her and she violently resists. Other officers arrive and the policeman punches her arm five times to deaden it and she is taken away. It all sounds simple enough. Somehow the Guardian, and subsequently Newsnight, brought race into the issue. There was absolutely nothing whatsoever to indicate the policeman hit her because of her race. Are violent white thugs who resist arrest treated to a chat and a cup of tea instead? I think not. Ruggie Johnson, coordinator of The Monitoring Group North said, "I was absolutely shocked when I saw it. It's like something out of the Deep South." And then that it reminded him of the Rodney King incident in Los Angeles. Rodney King was an innocent man and beaten by overtly racist police officers. Ms Comer, who happens to be a different race to the arresting officer, was caught red-handed committing a crime and attacked a policeman. Where is the link to Rodney King? Talk about making a mountain out of a grain of sand.
This kind of sensationalism only fans the flames that divide races and communities and is nothing but detrimental to cultural and race relations.
I expect this kind of journalism from the Guardian but not Newsnight.

  • 14.
  • At 11:36 PM on 07 Mar 2007,
  • Michael S wrote:

Tonight's lead story is possibly the most pointlessly sensationalised piece I have ever seen on Newsnight.
Once again the Guardian has taken an unremarkable news item and turned it into something it isn't.
A young woman is aggressively intoxicated and vandalising cars. A police officer attempts to restrain her and she violently resists. Other officers arrive and the policeman punches her arm five times to deaden it and she is taken away. It all sounds simple enough. Somehow the Guardian, and subsequently Newsnight, brought race into the issue. There was absolutely nothing whatsoever to indicate the policeman hit her because of her race. Are violent white thugs who resist arrest treated to a chat and a cup of tea instead? I think not. Ruggie Johnson, coordinator of The Monitoring Group North said, "I was absolutely shocked when I saw it. It's like something out of the Deep South." And then that it reminded him of the Rodney King incident in Los Angeles. Rodney King was an innocent man and beaten by overtly racist police officers. Ms Comer, who happens to be a different race to the arresting officer, was caught red-handed committing a crime and attacked a policeman. Where is the link to Rodney King? Talk about making a mountain out of a grain of sand.
This kind of sensationalism only fans the flames that divide races and communities and is nothing but detrimental to cultural and race relations.
I expect this kind of journalism from the Guardian but not Newsnight.

  • 15.
  • At 11:43 PM on 07 Mar 2007,
  • The lords save our lives that Blairites put at risk wrote:

Are we all lordly? when opinions matter we play to the class that knew it was worth it to conquer the world for the lord and warn all the those affected of the risks...and lives are saved...

The duties of care give us the power to take over...

This is in antithetical composition to the pre-eminence of negligence me first economics...

Blair is too irresponsible for the country and his people are weakening the disapproval of wrongdoing of religious certainty of acceptability and tolerance with everywhere repeated defiance and conflicts against our societies ...

Their conflicts have gone on so many years they have trained in every skill of deceit and game of pretense victimisation and humiliation with false privilege...and excuses of violence and GBH ..all tolerated but sorrowfully at the loss of fun and wealth...

To the point where i myself one of the greatest fans of lords and companions knights of the garter in St Georges Windsor...have found myself arrested for reporting a crime and drugged for complaining about victimisation of women..the two key duties that lords represented to us...

The queen has in everyway allowed the rise of unfortunates who are fans of distress and unpleasantness to the point where those skills have become life determining and essential training...

All know a lordly mood when it comes...but where it used to come with cheer and awesome appreciation it often now comes with deference and false serenity to the risks of Keynesian economic forces...

  • 16.
  • At 11:44 PM on 07 Mar 2007,
  • Aled wrote:


Watching the coverage of the showdown between Royale and Sarkozy I can't help but feel that there are far fewer differences between French and American political coverage than I previously thought.

Regardless of his following, the idolisation of Sarkozy evident in much of the report was quite unnerving to be honest. Whatever misgivings we may have with British electioneering, we are not yet at the stage where an engineered cult of personality can elevate our political figures to godlike status.

For once, I'm happy with a bit of voter apathy.

Also, with reference to the leading story - comparing that arrest with the Rodney King incident is almost laughable. In this case, the urgency on the report to find evidence of police brutality and racism outstripped the number of facts available, all of which will no doubt surface with an independent inquiry. Perhaps until then you could pick more relevant stories in future.

  • 17.
  • At 11:44 PM on 07 Mar 2007,
  • vikingar wrote:

Ref HoL v HoC ... Turkeys are not renowned for voting for Christmas … don't hold your breath on real change :)

Echo the sentiments of first two posters.

However, lets take the fight to the diehard socialists (old/neo) & ultra liberal progressive & their pipedreams of EU-land, PR & major societual / political engineering.

I for one, do not intend to flee to another greener field, more than happy to rise to the challenges here in the UK (if not defeated/tempered here, they have a habit of following the crowd)

The history of The United Kingdom, has actively shaped our shared & cultural norms, politics, institutions & agencies etc.

In accommodating the aspirational agenda driven politics, cliques & pressure groups ... the vested interest of the mainstream should not be compromised.

Good exchange between protagonists on NN ref House of Lords reform, esp the bit about, you would not invent the HoL from scratch, but since we have it & it works for hundreds of years, you would be mad to do away with it.

Q.1 will they have to change the name of HoL & the name of its members?

Q.2 will they have to change HoC as well in accommodating elected members of HoL? *

* if so, this is not an issue for politicians alone, it needs to be put to a referendum, as change on this scale is not for Islington Wine bar cliques alone.

Q. is this proposed constitutional upheaval (like devolution debacle perhaps leading to separatism) part of 'Blair's Legacy'? … given Blair is also in a bunker, did he watch 'Downfall' & come to the same conclusion as Hitler? [1a]

"…. the people do not deserve to survive, that they have failed him by losing the war and must perish" [1b]
vikingar

SOURCES:

[1a] http://www.downfallthefilm.com/
[1b] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downfall_%28film%29

  • 18.
  • At 11:59 PM on 07 Mar 2007,
  • Frank Hudson wrote:

From the angle of his arm the police officer was obviously using the underside i.e. the fleshy part of the hand between the base of the little finger and the wrist and not the knuckles of the fist. The hand was clenched yes, but the effect was more like pounding a table than trying to render the woman unconscious with direct knuckle blows.

Furthermore, it was clearly evident at the end of the clip when she was being led away that the woman was still very strong and quick on her feet, which wouldn't have been possible had she suffered heavy blows to the head.

  • 19.
  • At 12:02 AM on 08 Mar 2007,
  • D Williamson wrote:

In regards to the police restraining a seventeen year old woman and repeatedly striking her with a fist. I'm a psychiatric nurse and we have to practice controlled restraint on a regular basis, we don't have any protective clothing like the police, no handcuffs, no batons, no cs sprays, just nurse's uniforms, also we we don't have the backup of police dogs and multiple male police offices. We would have been expected to restrain the woman with only three staff, mostly three female staff. We would not be allowed to strike the person and would most probably be sacked if we ever did. I cannot see why this woman was repeatedly beaten. It's obvious that they were not practicing controlled restraint techniques, so either they hadn't been trained or they chose to use violence instead. To support the Police actions is definitely wrong, the only time it could be justified is if the woman was trying to using a weapon, like a knife or similar.

  • 20.
  • At 12:12 AM on 08 Mar 2007,
  • Pauline Campbell wrote:

POLICE BRUTALITY - tonight's lead story, one of the most disturbing reports I have ever watched on Newsnight, showed footage of a young woman, aged 20, being arrested in South Yorkshire.

Unable to remember what happened (she suffers from epilepsy and was fitting), the film showed the injuries to her body, and the footage of the incident told the shocking story. A number of police officers were present; PC Mulhall, a male officer, is seen hitting Toni Comer repeatedly and with great force. She was seen being dragged away with her trousers round her knees. Officer Mulhall, who delivered five blows to the woman on the ground, claims he had to use "brute force"; South Yorkshire Police are said to be "happy with the conduct of the officer".

Ms Comer, who has pleaded guilty to criminal damage to a car, has made an allegation of police assault, and is pursuing a civil case against the police, supported by the Monitoring Group North. The Group's representative, Ruggie Johnson, interviewed by Jeremy Paxman, described the incident as outrageous. The Chief Superintendent of the National Black Police Association says the police behaviour should be investigated by the IPCC. Jeremy Paxman asked the pertinent question: "Is race an element?"

It is cause for alarm that a vulnerable young woman has been subjected to such shocking police brutality in this country, but reassuring that Newsnight were able to cover the story, which has found its way onto the front page of The Guardian (Thursday 8 March 2007). Essential that such police brutality is exposed.

  • 21.
  • At 12:24 AM on 08 Mar 2007,
  • Pauline Campbell wrote:

The Guardian
8 March 2007
"Four men, five punches and a boot: A 19-year-old woman is arrested"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2028849,00.html

- violent arrest caught on CCTV

Outstanding Jeremy (14/10) yet again!
Extremely chilling footage of a teenage girl being punched tonight by policemen. As for restraining techniques,refering to D Williamson's post above, a psychiatric nurse is NOT allowed to strike patients or have any handcuffs/police dogs etc, and states that "they were not practising controlled restraint techniques, so either they hadn't been trained or they chose to use violence instead."

Lord Onslow was fantastic on the HoL reforms!Priceless!!!!

  • 23.
  • At 02:00 AM on 08 Mar 2007,
  • The Lords have chosen themselves wrote:

Tony Blair is weakening societies to the level of his own pathetic extremism...

But there should be no hereditary peers or elected peers...

The lords should be a free for all of mutual invitation to maximise global connectivity trade power and international leadership as they do anyway...

International global players are lords and should entitle themselves as such as large globally effective players for that purpose not necessarily as awarded by Her Majesty the Queen

If we are to play on an international stage and outsource export and import the world must know that the country is represented above the fashions of deteriorative new thinking expressed by quasi vote affirmed members....only strong working thinking should survive...members can oust unsuitables...and dispossess them of their title by petition to the commons...

So any "contenders" are already known or significantly representative of interests to be invited...

There is real politics to be done by the lords..and anyone can get to know them...the strength of the country requires a core of strongly associated globally known lords for international trade power and agreement...

But all customer representation in society should be worked into proposals for the country...

Representatives of the commons should Kneel to hear the judgements of their acts....

Any Tony Blair should be arrested for all charges against him including deliberate undermining of the public image and international communities

  • 24.
  • At 02:47 AM on 08 Mar 2007,
  • Mr Wallace wrote:

Wow,just watched the cctv footage of a young women apparently receiving some extra police attention,one constable appears to be raining blows in an attempt to subdue her.is she having a fit or is she resisting arrest after drunkenly abusing security staff and damaging cars.Pity this video has no sound as the abuse she probably gave out to the arresting officers would be even more revealing to the coppers plight in trying to restrain this young drunken women.No shame on her part shown in this newsnight report of her drunken and criminal behaviour,no head buried in embarrassment shown,cry brutality if you can,is todays mantra ,no doubt encouraged by some slimey hack from the guardian or other cash insentive lawyer.
This story has no legs,but the real shocker comment came from a pundit who tells us that the Rodney king incident has comparisons to this recent "police brutality"video,oh and the mention that Rodney king was an innocent man,no he was not,he had at that infamous time(and has grown bigger since his beating) an arrest and charge sheet as long as my dogs daily hour walk,no doubt the L.A police was seriously brutal in the beating of king and clearly excessive,and the aftermath ,who can not forget that reaction to kings beating and subsequent court case, Los Angeles burns to the ground and images of truck drivers dragged out of their cabs and having their sculls split open by gangs in revenge of kings beating and equital of LA police.nope,no comparison what so ever.
And finally the chief super Ali Dizael.its nice of him to make an appearance on newsnight considering his up and coming book touring schedule,although having Ali Dizael on newsnight may do more harm than good for the police defense in this "Rodney kingesque video"considering his dubious track record,well having him on saved us viewers from the alternative that could have been chief of police,Sir Ian blair,as every time i see blair,i only see Ricky gervais's creation,David Brent of the office. David Brent and Sir Ian blair,now theres a comparison.am i the only one who sees that? .quiet news day i think..but it wont surprise me if this story gets the attention it does not deserve

CRIMINAL .. ASSAULT?

Just watched the CCTV footage on several other channels as well.

What a non story in the obvious sense.

THE INCIDENT:

A drunken Toni Comer had gotten thrown out of a nightclub & after vandalising a bounder/security guards car, gets apprehended initially by one policeman.

A lengthy violent struggle eschewed.

The miscreant was forcibly restrained (with what seemed approx 5 open hand blows) *

* a reminder to people who have never had to restrain others, if it was about maximising violence, a one on one would result, the fact that several policeman is used, is to minimise the force needed, not to maximise it

She was convicted of criminal damaged & fined £250

It's considerably less violence metered out by civilians on civilians & civilians on emergency services (anyone care to remember the Panorama expose on violence in the NHS)

TONI COMER:

In July 2006, a single mum of ethnic background, committed a crime & was represented in court Weds 070307 by Danny Simpson [0a] [0b]

"Sheffield Magistrates Court, Ms Comer pleaded guilty to causing criminal damage. She was given a 12-month conditional discharge and ordered to pay £250 compensation to the owner of the damaged car"

Danny Simpson is Solicitor & chairman of The Monitoring Group North, who obtained the CCTV footage, given to The Guardian [0b] [1] [2]

RACISM:

The Guardian reported the regional/local story (watch all the footage) [1]

They obtained it from a The Monitoring Group North, a Black/Ethnic support group [2]

But the usual suspects will read into it what they wish for … .just awaiting the knee jerk race link & associated commentary from 'racist under the bed' opportunist Lee Jasper [3a] **

** my my … talking up racial issues & promoting a 'victim culture' certainly earns some a good living £111,000 [3b]

THE MONITORING GROUP NORTH:

Serving Sheffield’s Black and Minority Ethnic Communities.

Its executive management committee, has several members: [4]

- Mark Barlow - Barrister and TMGN’s treasurer [5]
- Danny Simpson - Solicitor and TMGN’s chairman [6a] [6b]
- Donna Wainman - Banking Consultant and also a Director / administrator.
- Janet Alder - Director and also a campaigner and a victim of death in custody to a family member. A recent candidate for RESPECT party in Tottenham. [7a] [7b]
- Ruggie Johnson is TMGN’s company secretary and also the principle voluntary caseworker for TMGN. Also publisher of monthly black newpaper WA'GWAN / WHA' A GWAN [8a] [8b]

WA'GWAN / WHA' A GWAN

A monthly newspaper [9a] [9b]

But website not active although linked on TMGN website [9c]

SO WHY NOW THE INTEREST?

… ah the pursuance of compensation .. after being convicted of a crime, the criminal is now suing The POLICE:

"A BRITISH woman is suing police after an officer was filmed punching her five times during an arrest" [10]

Give us strength !!!!!!!

Also for consideration ..

"As a result of the success of TMGN and its activities we now need to look at the best way to maintain delivery of our services. TMGN has obtained a small amount of funding to look at the long-term sustainability of the organization. This work has just commenced and it is hoped that we will be able to identify sources of income, develop a business plan which will enable TMGN to tender for contracts" [11]

So the sceptic in me surely does not wish to overly point out a high profile media case would give the TMGN a spotlight for further funding?

What success? … the website does not reveal anything? & there is no discussions taking place in the forum (perhaps there will be after GU & NN exposure)

SUMMARY:

NN what a non story & Rodney King comparisons etc are beyond the pale, come on, esp on the night of momentous HoC voting on HoL

The Guardian looking to make issue of something of July 2006 incident, which if the criminal had not been from a ethnic background, there would be no story.

What are the motives & agenda? … after looking to TMGN & its protagonists, we can only guess ... Justice? or Headline & Resources grabbing issue?

A voluntary group, with limited funding, going since 2004? with a mixed bag of members (some with interesting & credible backgrounds, undoubtedly all with agenda, centre to left wing) is funding an assault claim against The Police … place your bets please !

BUT ALL IN ALL ……. REF CCTV …. MOVE ALONG, NOTHING TO SEE HERE

vikingar

SOURCES:

[0a] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/6428865.stm
[0b] http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/eric_allison/2007/03/at_64_years_of_ageand.html
[1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/video/page/0,,2028548,00.html
[2] http://www.tmgn.co.uk/news.shtml
[3a] http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1001151,00.html
[3b] http://www.libertyandlaw.co.uk/page.php?domain_name=libertyandlaw.co.uk&viewpage=news
[4] http://www.tmgn.co.uk/contact.html
[5] http://www.gcnchambers.co.uk/index.php/gcn/barristers/barlow
[6a] http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/eric_allison/2007/03/at_64_years_of_ageand.html
[6b] http://www.howells-solicitors.com/
[7a] http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/eric_allison/2007/03/at_64_years_of_ageand.html
[7b] http://www.howells-solicitors.com/
[8a] http://society.guardian.co.uk/crimeandpunishment/story/0,8150,1537583,00.html
[8b] http://www.blink.org.uk/pdescription.asp?key=7539&grp=18&cat=183
[9a] http://www.islam4you.co.uk/forum/archive/index.php/t-2068.html
[9b] http://www.bbc.co.uk/southyorkshire/content/articles/2004/07/09/culture_one_dark_angel_feature.shtml
[9c] http://www.whaagwan.co.uk/
[10] http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21346484-1702,00.html
[11] http://www.tmgn.co.uk/contact.html

  • 26.
  • At 08:34 AM on 08 Mar 2007,
  • Brian Kelly wrote:

"A SHOCKING STORY AND IT'S WELL WORTH TUNING IN FOR" ................
your headlines just didn't live up to the story, initially at first glance it seemed a neo Los Angeles ugly Police(racist) Brutal Beating scenario!... when analysed this wasn't the case?(the officer has already admitted to having to use excessive force in these circumstances) ...or maybe it was over the top... whatever the jury's still out on that.... but it certainly didn't deserve the dramatic headline!!

I do not understand how a fully elected House of Lords can benefit /replace the present system..if changes are all about stopping dodgy ennoblement's it's very much a knee- jerk reaction...or it's a second tier to the House of Commons..which is plain stupid! & will cause total confusion. And as several members of the other place have remarked "If it ain't broke why bother to fix it"...no doubt some suspect (reasonable in todays, less than pure, politics) that New Labour are seeking another authoritarian pasture.
I also understand if/or maybe already have voted on getting rid of hereditary peers.... won't this leave the present government with a hefty majority.Finally if as is expected the H O Ls vote against the measures...will the government use the Parliament Act to force it through?

  • 27.
  • At 10:02 AM on 08 Mar 2007,
  • keith fleming wrote:

Vikingar (apropos #17),

I wasn't enormously surprised that you oppose HoL reform. I suppose I oughtn't have been, but I was slightly surprised that you have trotted out your tired conspiracy theory: the 'ultra-liberals' and 'socialists' are out to get us:

"lets take the fight to the diehard socialists (old/neo) & ultra liberal progressive & their pipedreams of EU-land, PR & major societual / political engineering."

The Joseph Rowntree Foundation carried out a poll in 1991, and found that 40% of the public supported replacing the HoL with an elected second chamber, with 29% against. A similar poll in 2006 found 65% of the population in favour of an elected HoL. An Electoral Reform Society poll in 2005 found 65% in favour of at least 50% of the upper house elected. Finally, the Hansard Society poll carried out recently found 42% support a fully elected second chamber, 40% support one of the part-elected/part appointed mix and only 6% support for the status quo.

If you are to 'take the fight' to the 'diehard socialists' and 'ultra liberal progressives' of your frankly fevered imagination, you will have quite a fight on your hands. A fight, that is, against the majority of those with an opinion on the subject. A fight, that is, against the will of the majority of the people:

"In accommodating the aspirational agenda driven politics, cliques & pressure groups ... the vested interest of the mainstream should not be compromised."

And who better, in a democracy, to determine the 'vested interest' of the majority than... the people, a majority of whom, all reasonable indicators show, support HoL reform?

Unless we have all been 'duped' by those awful, scheming 'ultra-liberals' and 'socialists'...

Oh, and Vikingar, the Tony Blair/Hitler comparison is surely beneath you?

As ever,

Keith


  • 28.
  • At 10:12 AM on 08 Mar 2007,
  • keith fleming wrote:

Vikingar (apropos #17),

I wasn't enormously surprised that you oppose HoL reform. I suppose I oughtn't have been, but I was slightly surprised that you have trotted out your tired conspiracy theory: the 'ultra-liberals' and 'socialists' are out to get us:

"lets take the fight to the diehard socialists (old/neo) & ultra liberal progressive & their pipedreams of EU-land, PR & major societual / political engineering."

The Joseph Rowntree Foundation carried out a poll in 1991, and found that 40% of the public supported replacing the HoL with an elected second chamber, with 29% against. A similar poll in 2006 found 65% of the population in favour of an elected HoL. An Electoral Reform Society poll in 2005 found 65% in favour of at least 50% of the upper house elected. Finally, the Hansard Society poll carried out recently found 42% support a fully elected second chamber, 40% support one of the part-elected/part appointed mix and only 6% support for the status quo.

If you are to 'take the fight' to the 'diehard socialists' and 'ultra liberal progressives' of your frankly fevered imagination, you will have quite a fight on your hands. A fight, that is, against the majority of those with an opinion on the subject. A fight, that is, against the will of the majority of the people:

"In accommodating the aspirational agenda driven politics, cliques & pressure groups ... the vested interest of the mainstream should not be compromised."

And who better, in a democracy, to determine the 'vested interest' of the majority than... the people, a majority of whom, all reasonable indicators show, support HoL reform?

Unless we have all been 'duped' by those awful, scheming 'ultra-liberals' and 'socialists'...

Oh, and Vikingar, the Tony Blair/Hitler comparison is surely beneath you?

As ever,

Keith


  • 29.
  • At 10:41 AM on 08 Mar 2007,
  • john p wrote:

Mr Paxman at his worst on the drunk. Trying to stuff words into Ch Supt Desai's mouth [to his credit he did not rise to the bait]and showing rather too much sympathy for the drunk. Any fool can sit in a studio and tell people what to do. Surprising for a member of the journalistic trade he does not ever seem to have had to deal with a roaring drunk: in a misspent youth at sea I have known it take six men to hold one down. With the exception of Emily Maitlis all your regular preenters could do with a spell on he subs bench if not the transfer list. How about a return of Eddie Mair, Alan Little and Martha herself? I'm off to grandson's school play tonight at JP's old school. I hope it's changed since he wss there.

  • 30.
  • At 10:53 AM on 08 Mar 2007,
  • Bob Goodall wrote:

Dear Newsnight

Scooter Libby isn’t going to spend a day in jail. They will play for time and mount every legal challenge possible and then he will be freed on a presidential pardon as Bush leaves office.

re cash for honours
I'm not convinced that the media are acting in the best interests of the country with the disclosures. The chances of a successful prosecution are rapidly diminishing. A few years ago I heard the vast number of outlandish conspiracy theories being described as like the turd in the punchbowl. Most are absurd but they successfully discredit the few worth thinking about.

that said -would the Police really be leaking information about the Cash for Honours? A second enquiry needs to be set up to find out who is, and why?

another criticism of the media is when during a police enquiry they 'pay' a former police officer or employee of the police to advise on the latest techniques that will be used to catch the criminals often making these techniques less effective

Yours sincerely
Bob Goodall

  • 31.
  • At 01:42 PM on 08 Mar 2007,
  • Ashley Ballard wrote:

The Lib Dems voted for 80% elected or above, not 100% only as you reported, and it was made very clear in the Commons. I'm glad to see your correspondent bothered to watch the debate!

  • 32.
  • At 10:17 AM on 09 Mar 2007,
  • vikingar wrote:

Ref keith fleming #27

"…. suppose I oughtn't have been, but I was slightly surprised that you have trotted out your tired conspiracy theory: the 'ultra-liberals' and 'socialists' are out to get us … "

CHANGE:

Well no-one else if clambering for such change, its just The Usual Suspects, unhappy with the status quo.

Ref the alleged desires of the 'population' tis a fickle thing i.e. CAPITAL PUNISHMENT [1]

Too many calls for FREEDOM !!! (esp in Mel Gibson genre) means a transference of power from a traditional but accessible elite NOT TO THE PEOPLE, but to a distinctly active minority pressure groups, whose desires have never taken mainstream root in British, esp by open electoral means.

i.e. the minority clambering for change have ideas as too whom should inhabit vacant seats of power … THEMSELVES

That is a form of self interested & selfish Political Musical Chairs meets The Bailiffs.

The usual class war desire of such passionate & active minorities, continue, regardless of its form: private education, blood sports & political institutions.

Will it result in a pair of better performing Houses …. NO

INCOMPETENCE & VESTED INTERESTS:

Ref HoL not against change, just against change when the people advocating it (esp from the ranks of the New Labour) have utterly failed to deliver against 10 year tenure of revenues gathered v services promised.

An appointed HoL, where expertise, ability & knowledge, esp outside of politics incestuous gene pool, is a great thing. Just do not see too many non-political types standing for election. Just the utterly desperate types who 'want to get elected'. We are supposed to get the cream of the crop & look what we have now.

Just for once would like to see on anything but occasional micro level demonstration (funded & supported by central macro system) where such socialists & ultra liberals have actually managed to realise delivery against aspiration … esp before coerced to handing over the keys to power on the macro level.

LEADERS?:

It was part tongue in cheek comparison, but also meant it as a comparison of leadership in difficulty.

The'scorched earth' policy of Hitler at the end of his regin, was intentional. Blair's desire for legacy is similarly intentional & myopic, more interested in the historical mark than the actual impact & consequence, at either the popular beginning or end of his reign & slide into proven mismanagement, dishonesty, incompetence & unpopularity *

* the Scottish devolution carrot was never supposed to have lef to the consequences we are seeing, just that Labour was so desperate for election in 1997, they put many things out on the end of the stick (surprised we did not see a pair of Cherie's knickers ... then again!)

SUMMARY:

The aptly proud but misquoted words of John Bright, who remarked in 1865 that "England is the Mother of Parliaments" has served the vast majority very well indeed in the UK over hundreds of years [2]

But it does not serve the interests of an active political minority in the way they would wish, so they understandingly want to force change.

Given ours is the 'Mother of Parliaments' rather reluctant for some of its dysfunctional citizenry to launch a incestuous mount … & then declare its in all our interests, rather than their pleasure & gain … bollocks :)

Nor be fooled into a smug self congratulatory mode, that Wednesday vote wasn't anything but top shelf bluff & political Shenagins of the highest order - befitting the 'Mother of Parliaments' - Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/asguru/generalstudies/society/29crime/crime06.shtml
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament

  • 33.
  • At 11:47 AM on 09 Mar 2007,
  • keith fleming wrote:

Vikingar,

as ever, I am somewhat confused by your posting at #32.

You suggest there is nobody but 'the usual suspects' (those pesky, shadowy 'socialists' and 'ultra-liberals' hell-bent on ruining this once fine country) who are 'clambering' [sic] for change.

Except, as we saw above, the majority of those polled on the issue are in favour of change. And have been in several separate polls. Conducted by various polling groups. Over several years. You will really have to stretch your paranoid fantasy to include some sort of brainwashing of the populace by those scheming 'ultra liberals' to justify your implicit suggestion that there is not popular support for reform of HoL.

I understand perfectly your arguments about reform of HoL, and there is certainly a debate to be had there. In fact, there's plenty of interest to respond to in your post. Except that it's not really a response to what I wrote above, is it? I wasn't advocating HoL reform, wasn't putting forward a suggestion as to how to reform the HoL, wasn't looking at the range of alternatives available.

All I was doing, as I have done before, was pulling you up on your vague, brash and at times not only counter-intuitive but wholly counter-factual demagoguery.

So I suppose the Tony Blair/Hitler jibe fits in to this pattern. I am no fan of Tony Blair (although, I rather suspect, for somewhat different reasons to you) but, since this is a discussion forum for a supposedly intelligent news programme, couldn’t we rise above the sixth-former ‘just like Hitler’ nonsense? We can all do it, but it doesn’t achieve much, now, does it?

(Given that you appear obsessively preoccupied with the theme of national decline; that you lay the blame for this upon an elite, conspiratorial cabal of ‘liberals’ and ‘socialists’; that you oppose these forces of a recognisable modernity in the defence of social order, traditional values and national culture; that you would subsume the interests and rights of the individual always to the interests of the nation and your dangerously rhetorical ‘majority’ of folk; your willingness to abandon traditional liberties in the interests of ‘internal security’ and the strength of the nation; your apparent belief that, although the western twentieth century may have been the century of liberalism, socialism and democracy, the twenty-first need not and should not also be one of liberalism, socialism and democracy (political doctrines may pass; nations remain, after all); that you would wish to build up the state, the nation and its ‘majority’ of folk such that every individual acts in the interests of the nation and the community and be convinced of the goodness and honourable straightforwardness of this community of people; and that you depend almost exclusively upon a tendentious, rhetorical, reactionary, repetitive and frequently counter-factual narrative in pursuance of same… I would suggest that name-calling of that type is at best a somewhat trite and insensitive example of immature invective, and at worst, well, pots and kettles…)

Se what I mean?

Keith


  • 34.
  • At 05:31 PM on 09 Mar 2007,
  • vikingar wrote:

Part 1of2

Ref keith fleming #35

"… Given that you appear obsessively preoccupied with the theme of national decline; that you lay the blame for this upon an elite, conspiratorial cabal of ‘liberals’ and ‘socialists’; that you oppose these forces of a recognisable modernity in the defence of social order, traditional values and national culture … "

NATIONAL DECLINE?:

I acknowledge a decline in standards & behaviour directly linked to some political pressure groups unrelenting campaigns for rights, regardless.

Regardless of the consequences, regardless of the individuals capacity to exercise & handle such rights, regardless on the totality of impact on wider society.

Ref the word liberal … it’s a fine ideal, like libertarianism … indeed I would class myself as Liberal Conservative *

* I believe in the aspirational idea of the individuals rights of men, countered by realities of the day-to-day needs of the majority.

As for 'socialism' - its a dated concept, that utterly failed despite the numerous attempts by many countries over 50+ years …. a bankrupt concept, both morally & on the sustainable result front.

I oppose forces which use the legitimate excuse for 'modernity' dressed up in language, that purposely hides their own self interests & agendas, for which the extension of rights more enabling for them then any other group.

Also I refuse to throw away proven stability via tradition, for aspirational ideas, esp when the those calling for change have proven themselves utterly inept at demonstrating competency. Some local level micro activity (enabled by central funding) does not readily transfer itself to macro implementation.

As to rights, given the threats by a nation, certain peacetime expectations & rights may have to be suspended, not abandoned, in the face of a changing threat by external & internal forces … that reality.

Given the impact individuals may have on society, we are sooner than not going to reach a point when too many rights have been extended, without any expectation of behaviour & responsibility by the individual.

Believe that point has passed already. We are seeing greater calls for what is essentially a 'Renaissance of Rights' to rebalance the rights of individuals with the rights of society to be governed & managed for the benefits of all (vast majority).

vikingar

  • 35.
  • At 06:26 PM on 09 Mar 2007,
  • vikingar wrote:

Part 2of2

Ref keith fleming #35

BIGOTRY:

A consequence of human behaviour, interactions with others, the nurture/nature arguments & successive generations overlapping each other in society ….. results in less than desirable behaviour, attitudes & views amongst people.

Its repeatable, not confined to the shores of this country nor to white middle class males ….. its called HUMAN NATURE … & exist in all sexes, ages, creeds, colours & COMMUNITIES.

The Usual Suspects, who still after the proven failing of multiculturalism, are trying to shore it up by 'outing' again any people in debate about race & culture with the open ended denouncement of racist, is a bigoted statement in itself.

The Left Wing, the ultra liberals & liberal left et al … make great play of their favourite groups for attack:

- tories
- right wing
- capitalism
- monarchy
- america
- class .. as in class war

Their reliance & prejudice & stereotyping of the above is BIGOTRY & is just as offensive & limiting as their attempts to rein in any discussion about race & culture, into a racist 'outing'

vikingar

  • 36.
  • At 10:25 PM on 12 Mar 2007,
  • vikingar wrote:

JOINING UP THE DOTS: - alleged police racist assult

Herald "Ruggie" Johnson, race activist & coordinator of The Monitoring Group North & editor of Sheffield magazine Wha' a gwan acting as family adisor for Tori Commer after obtaining CCTV footage [1] [2] [3]

OTHER BITS & PIECES:

A) Teri Comer, informed The Sun she had diagnosed "HERSELF & had NEVER" been prescribed medication [4] *

* "I’d shared a bottle of Martell with three people but I don’t think I was particularly drunk. I can’t remember what happened at the club. I think I was having an epileptic fit.”

OTHER INFO & COINCIDENCES:

- Tori Comer, Sheffield Court, Tuesday 6th March 2007, convicted of criminal damage & given conditional discharge, ordered to pay £250 to the vehicle's owner.

- Ruggie Johnson, Sheffield Court, Friday 9th March 2007, convicted of racist abuse against two white traffic wardens. He was fined £200 and ordered to pay £100 costs by magistrates [3] [5] **

** disappointing verbal insults emanating from an alleged: race activist / human rights advisor / community campaigner

Q. what did they both have in common *** beside being convicted two days apart at same court? ****

Ans: Danny Simpson *** & TMGN **** [7]

*** Simpson acted as the solicitor for Teri Comer, Danny Simpson & Herald 'Reggie' Johnson committee members of TMGN [6]

**** Danny Simpson (solicitor) & Mark Barlow (barrister) & 'Reggie' Johnson all committee members of TMGN [7]

Q. did Ruggie Johnson legitimately ambulance chase Teri Comer ref assault and/or is Ruggie Johnson trying to mitigate his own racist conviction?

Ruggie Johnson previous court success with assistance from Howells Solicitors (which solicitor Danny Simpson is a member of) [8]

SUMMARY:

Looking fwd to the NN follow up, especially about activities, motives & state provided resources v promotion of 'victim' culture by burgeoning race relations industry, who if the TMGN are anything to go by, do seem very willing to help each other out (but whose paying the bills?)

vikingar

SOURCES

[1] http://www.sheffieldtoday.net/viewarticle.aspx?sectionid=58&articleid=2106828
[2] # 25
[3] http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23388397-details/The%20face%20of%20the%20officer%20at%20the%20centre%20of%20the%20CCTV%20%27brutality%27%20race%20row/article.do
[4] http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/1,,2007110340,00.html
[5] http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleID=2112661&SectionID=55
[6] http://www.tmgn.co.uk/contact.html
[7] http://www.gcnchambers.co.uk/index.php/gcn/barristers/barlow
[8] http://www.howells-solicitors.com/newsdetail.php?id=39

  • 37.
  • At 02:20 PM on 15 Mar 2007,
  • pippop wrote:

If, to balance up history, we now rename 'The Lords' as 'The Ladies' do you think they will regard this as taking the piss out of them?

  • 38.
  • At 05:46 PM on 15 Mar 2007,
  • Maurice - Northumberland wrote:

pippop - I like that!
But the only people who have been taking the *iss for the last decade are the dangerous soviet socialists in the other House, of cards.

  • 39.
  • At 06:37 PM on 18 Mar 2007,
  • steve wrote:

i think toni comer needs some dress tips from trinny and suzanne, i think she looks frightfully common. maybe the police officer was annoyed over her complete lack of dress sense. you wouldn`t get prince williams girlfriend looking like that. angry white aunt from totley.

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