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Tuesday, 14 November, 2006

  • Newsnight
  • 14 Nov 06, 04:19 PM

radical203100.jpgWe investigate the radicalisation of Britain's Muslim youth.

Today another breast cancer scare. Is there now too much conflicting information for women to understand the illness and its causes?

A group of international lawyers files a lawsuit in Germany calling on prosecutors to investigate former US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld for war crimes. We speak to the lawyer in charge of the case.

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  • 1.
  • At 09:01 PM on 14 Nov 2006,
  • David wrote:

Just listening to the report on File on 4 programme about south london gangs who are muslim are some how linked to Hizb ut-Tahrir seems nonsense.

I remember Newsnight doing a similar job of maligning the hizb in 2004. Their representative did a pretty good job in ridiculing the claims and showing how Gavin had no knowledge of this group.

I just hope he or whoever from the hizb have the same opportunity to do the same this time round on the programme.

Lets see how impartial BBC really are.

It's not surprising that all this radicalisation of Britain's Muslim youth is ongoing. This government had to be pushed into action against the preaching of extremism and parading of violent placards on the streets of our capital. And when did they really spring into knee-jerk mode? - When a minor political party leader had the audacity (courage) to utter his own views in a private meeting, filmed secretly. As soon as he was found not guilty of incitement to hatred the whole body politic (including so-called opposition parties) jerked into motion with calls for more tougher legislation. If that's their idea of priorities then we shall soon have another minority ethnic group radicalised - the indigenous English people, including me.

  • 3.
  • At 11:00 PM on 14 Nov 2006,
  • Alison Oliphant wrote:

I fail to understand why it should be surprising that young Muslims in this country are being "radicalised".
The partisanship of our Government in the Middle East, at the expense of justice for thousands of Muslims in Palestine, not to mention the well-documented horrors caused by our government's war on Iraq would tempt any young idealist to hatred for and violence against our and the U.S.' society. The extraordinarily frustrating impotence that I feel as a white, English, middle-class, middle-aged "establishment" female, must be so much more unbearable for a young British Muslim.

  • 4.
  • At 11:00 PM on 14 Nov 2006,
  • Narin wrote:

A simple Google search of 'Dominic Whiteman Vigil' throws up a list of links that suggests that Mr Whiteman may have a right wing agenda all of his own.

This package seemed to be a complete stitch up, well done to Dr Wahid for holding himself so well against Paxman - who made himself look like a fool with his aggressive self-aggrandising interview technique.

  • 5.
  • At 11:09 PM on 14 Nov 2006,
  • John Smith wrote:

Richard Watson's report is gravely in error - Dublin in NOT and has never been a transit port for U.S. soldiers to Iraq. You should correct this before you go off air!

  • 6.
  • At 11:15 PM on 14 Nov 2006,
  • londoner wrote:

If the claims on tonight's programme against HT are investigated by the police and evidence provided then HT should be banned. If however the charges are not substantiated then the BBC's reputation for impartial and responsible reporting will have been serioiusly damaged. Whilst also damaging the name of the Home office employee who is also a member of HT. This needs to be investigated

  • 7.
  • At 11:21 PM on 14 Nov 2006,
  • Nawaz wrote:

I am thoroughly disappointed in the newsnight extremism "expose". I have known the guys for over 15 years in two different cities. Ironically, rather than (as you allege) being seen as criminals, they are seen as intellectuals, professionals, doctors, accountants, lawyers etc If anything, they're criticised for being a bit too "posh", too intellectual. Your programme seems to center around testimonies from "sources". I've got no inherent love for Hizb et Tahrir, but I'm definitely against scare-mongering and lies. The BBC has let itself down.

  • 8.
  • At 11:28 PM on 14 Nov 2006,
  • Pete wrote:

I and many millions of people in this country belong to a particular "ethnic group". If things carry on as they seem to be going in this beloved country of ours, then we too may soon become a so-called "radicalised" and disillusioned community of "dangerous" people - I think that it is still legal to describe oneself as English - or maybe Tony Blair and the left-of-centre intelligentsia minority who control both behaviour and thought in this country have already outlawed our own nationality??!!

  • 9.
  • At 11:33 PM on 14 Nov 2006,
  • Tom McAlister wrote:

As a middle aged,white,ordinary working man who views religion and dogmas according to whoever and whatever with a degree of scepticism; I was astonished at the conduct of Mr Paxman in his "interview" of the muslim doctor.It was a disgrace to his profession and the BBC.Personally speaking,Mr Paxman's talents and his interrogation methods could be more suitably employed in a small piece of American real estate on the island of Cuba.Impartial, he wasn't. Yours, disgusted.

It is possible that Newsnight was fooled by rival groups masquerading as Hizb ut-Tahrir supporters and members. The notion came to me while listening to the spokesman of Hizb ut-Tahrir who completely denied things on the report and did appear quite truthful.

German Lawyer v Rumsfeld: May I wish the German good luck in his attempts.

Breast Cancer: There are so many campaigns to raise money for research into Breast Cancer and a massive amount of money must have been raised. But when new drugs are developed it is the drug companies who charge highly for the drugs and the women who always have to battle (sometimes unsuccessfully) for the drugs to be prescribed on the NHS. This makes one a little bit suspicious about who benefits from all the money given by the public to find a cure for cancer. I think public investigations are needed into precisely how the money is spent.

  • 11.
  • At 11:33 PM on 14 Nov 2006,
  • jamie wrote:

Well i found that whole clip about the hizb very hard to believe.
As a person that knows members of the hizb and i have also been along to their talks this whole thing just disgusts me. They are in NO WAY whats so ever like anything that u have put forward on your show this evening.

The people that came forward and give interviews to newsnight are LIARS.

Newsnight you should feel ashmed, you should investigate properly and get your facts right before putting this type of thing on the TV.

Lets just wait and see what damage this now causes within communities

  • 12.
  • At 11:35 PM on 14 Nov 2006,
  • Mike Jones wrote:

Watching tonight's Newsnight I found it totally shocking that whoever assaulted the BBC cameraman was not immediately arrested by the policemen readily available on the location.

I take it for granted that the person who committed the assault, whose face was clearly shown in the report, will be prosecuted, and that an investigation against the police officers on duty, who obviously failed to do their duty, will be initiated.

Handing out leaflets, however obnoxious their contents may be, is part of the doctrine of free speech, THE main pillar of democracy, and must unconditionally be allowed. However, pushing cameramen or anybody else about, must - again to protect democracy - unconditionally be prosecuted.

  • 13.
  • At 11:36 PM on 14 Nov 2006,
  • Akber wrote:

I found the report by Richard Watson to be very sensationalised and down right devisive for the Muslim Community.

Hizb ut-tahrir is a very respected islamic organisation. Don't ask individual muslims but ask other heads of Muslim organisations.

Its funny how all this propaganda from all levels of society e.g. government ministers, Head of MI5 and now BBC are piling on the term Radicalisation of Muslim youth when in actual fact, what is happening is Politicisation due to the government's foreign policy. British Muslims will speak against the atrocities taking place in foreign lands in our name and further more expose the immoral war.

Yes, I agree there are a few individual muslims who might be criminals, aggressive and thugs but how is that related to Hizb -ut Tahrir?

It was easily appreciable that the gentleman who attacked the cameraman did not want to be in the film. Though i do not condone it however i condemn the warped logic that it was because of HT.

I hope BBC takes up the challenge which the hizb representative stated. It will be clear how baseless these claims are and the poor quality of reporting by Newsnight.

For evidence of what the hizb is and promotes go visit their website and let the Public decide.

I sincerely hope Newsnight stops trying to portray the hizb in a negative light. They tried in 2004 with Gavin and now with Jeremy in 2006. Suprisingly, each time they do the hizb gets more publicity and support.

  • 14.
  • At 11:37 PM on 14 Nov 2006,
  • Kayum wrote:

Watching the programme on radicalised Muslims being led to violence by Hizb-ut Tahrir was completely unbelievable. Anybody that knows or has come across HT will know that many of the "facts" represented in the programme by the "insider" are completely flawed and utterly baseless. These "facts" are as far from the truth as you can possibly get. HT is renowned for its non-violent stance, and most people in any Muslim communtiy across the country, and globally, would testify to this.

I can't believe you people got taken in by rightwing extremists like VIGIL. You should be ashamed to publish such gutter journalism. I've already blogged a refutation, and I hope many others will do the same.

  • 16.
  • At 11:45 PM on 14 Nov 2006,
  • Marco Walsh wrote:

In reply to Alison.

I am sorry but I resolutely disagree with your post. Firstly, Israel has a right to defend herself from terrorists, who have openly and unequivocally stated they want Israel's destruction. As for Iraq, there is only so much you can keep blaming our government for muslims murdering other muslims in that region. The predominant number of killings have been caused by muslim on muslim violence. To blame our governments because they indirectly caused this is frankly nonsensical. Also, when it comes to Darfur, where 1000's of muslims are being murdered, the silence coming from those who are the first to condemn the actions in Iraq/Afganistan is chilling.

  • 17.
  • At 11:46 PM on 14 Nov 2006,
  • Rick B wrote:

I don't know much about HT but from interviews I've seen their spokespeople have always spoken in a rational manner and stressed non-violence. As for the gang that says they are HT - they could be anybody. I could form a gang and call it Opus Dei, that doesn't mean I'm a legitimate member of that group or that my gang is connected to them.

  • 18.
  • At 11:47 PM on 14 Nov 2006,
  • Burhaan wrote:

What a complete hatchet-job on HT: a disgraceful piece of gutter journalism full of disinformation and unfounded accusations. No wonder Abdul Wahid looked so flabbergasted in the studio! Richard Watson's report claimed to be based on "evidence", which was a mosque committee member's unsourced allegations, a silhouetted figure claiming to be a member of HT, and a "police investigation" of an unsubstantiated plot to firbomb a synagogue.

As a member of the South London Muslim community whose local mosque is in fact Croydon mosque, i meet these guys on a regular basis. Our kids go to the same schools and clubs and we often bump into each other in the local Sainsburys etc. From my direct experience and interaction with HT (rather than Watson's agenda-led investigation) I can categorically state that HT have no links with violence or gangs or terrorism. And the allegation that they get their members to swear allegiance on the Quran and then prove themselves through muggings is just a bare-faced lie. Whether we agree or disagree with their ideas, it is irrefutable that HT have a 53 year history of non-violence, even in the face of brutal repression by tyrannical regimes such as those in Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Pakistan and Uzbekistan.

When these baseless accusations prove to be the nonsense that they are, I hope that Newsnight will have the decency to clear HT's name with the same publicity and vigour with which they have tonight sought to besmirch it.

Newsnight should be aware that no amount of propaganda and disinformation will divide the Muslim community - it only serves to strengthen our Islamic bonds.

  • 19.
  • At 11:52 PM on 14 Nov 2006,
  • salman wrote:

This was very poor journalism. The government have been unable to make a case for banning HT and now the state-run media stoops to this. Obviously, linking HT to terrorism has failed now they are trying to link them with crime and anti-social behaviour-what next? (I can't believe Paxman has associated himself with this edition.)

  • 20.
  • At 11:52 PM on 14 Nov 2006,
  • Ahmed wrote:

Absolutely pathetic report. This was completely trash reporting ... why the need to go to underground websites to get info on publicly advertised events ... I understand that HT are going to sue the beeb ... good ... this kind of nazi style missinformation should not go unrewarded

  • 21.
  • At 11:53 PM on 14 Nov 2006,
  • samaira wrote:

well its not the first time the bbc has let itself down. hizb ut tahrir have never been a group which has condoned acts of terror, they are neither radicalising the youth. for God sake newsnight... get a real story!

and maybe paxman feared what abdul wahid had to say, the reason for why he didnt even let him speak.

Absolutely pathetic story... I understand that ht is going to start legal proceedings against the beeb ... good ... this kind of trash nazi style propoganda / reportinng should be rewarded... i wonder if they will get more compensation than the junkies in our prisons?

  • 23.
  • At 12:05 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • saher wrote:

what makes hizb ut tahrir so different is its non violent methods to bring about change! if such groups are going to be demonised, well then i have lost all hope.

  • 24.
  • At 12:09 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Miles Davis wrote:

I am British, middle class and live in "middle England".

My doctor is a member of this organisation (HT) and an upstanding member of society. I can't believe the lies spewed out by someone who could not even show his face.

I can't believe that Newsnight could have stooped to such a low level on the basis of some right-wing group called "VIGIL".

The least Mr Paxman could have done was listen to Dr. Wahid's points.

  • 25.
  • At 12:12 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Sheila Hollins wrote:

I remember Newsnight reporting that the same organisation was tackling drugs and crime in the Muslim community. I think the report was in March 2004.

Now you expect us to believe that the same organisation is dealing drugs and mugging old grannies?

  • 26.
  • At 12:13 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • summaya rashid wrote:

fantastic, when the bbc campaigns on making groups such as hizb ut tahrir ,look like there radicalising the youth...it sure does distract the attention away from the REAL problem?

newsnight has not done itself any favours, rather its reinforced the view which muslims hold of the media.

  • 27.
  • At 12:24 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Carlos Barentos wrote:

If newsnight was a visual manifestation of the tabloid media then forgive me for tuning in. This irresponsible and vacuous journalism reminds me of initiating a gung-ho execution and asking questions later. It is superficial to air an accusation against a peaceful political party that calls for intellectual and political discourse between Muslims and non-Muslims. Its members are highley literate and contribute and encourage the betterment of society through education and interaction. They are not cladestine! The group has gained enormous popularity amongst the masjids (places of worship) in the last decade, and is seen by many Muslims as a leading group calling for dialogue to ease scaremongering produced by Ministers capitalising on creating community INcohesion. I am sure Tony Blair doesn't test the loyalty of Gordon Brown by asking him to rob the middle-class by increasing direct tax on cigerettes by £0.50!! It is illogical to assume an intellectual political party that debates with memebers of other political parties throughtout the world including debates at oxford and cambridge, will steep so low, and vehemently oppose the very ideology it belongs to, by asking a person to go and rob someone for couple of pounds. I smell a rat, and a big one too!

  • 28.
  • At 12:30 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • D. Laws wrote:

Newsnight! what is the matter with you? I cant believe the farse I just witnessed tonight. Anyone with just a little bit of intelligence will see such blatant manipulation. I was thinking this just doesnt make sense. I cant believe Im paying for this. I cant believe Im paying for Tony Blairs PR. I can no longer watch newsnight and expect impartial reporting instaed newsnight is just thinly diguised party political broadcast. I will be no longer watching this garbage.

  • 29.
  • At 12:31 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Mohammed Nawaz wrote:

There is much research going on at the moment with regards to British Muslims and Muslim organisations. The Joseph Rowntree Trust report highlight the demonisation of the muslim community for political gain and has refuted much of the government agenda.
It seems to me that journalists at the bbc have left the ethics that they studied, research methodology and balanced reporting. I would advice all to read Muslims and the News Media (2006) eds. Poole, E. and Richardson, J.E. With Regards to Hizb-ut Tahrir, all its literature including the Economic system and Social system, methododlogy etc has been in the public domain for decades. An especially good book for journalists would be the one entitled ' Thinking' by Sheikh Taquiuddin an Nabhani(r).

  • 30.
  • At 12:32 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Louise wrote:

I am very suprised to find so many people viewing this report as an attack on muslims. I thought muslims were crying out for the peaceful muslim point of view to be heard. I thought having extreme points of view opposed by more rational muslim points of view could only be a good thing.

  • 31.
  • At 12:36 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Miah wrote:

I saw the newsnight report on HT and my immediate thought was what utter rubish, you at the bbc called it investigative journalism. What a joke! If these guys, interviewed, were actually encouraged to criminality why didn't they go to the police? Is newsnight going to send their findings to the police? I challenge you to do that. Has it occured to newsnight that any one can pretend to be HT and claim all sorts of things, but that is not prove. As far as I am concern it could be any one from the right-wing establishment like the MI5. Lets face it it wouldn't be the first time. Furtheremore, why didn't newsnight interview other mosques and community leaders, why just select few people who might just not like HT. How can you call this balanced reporting? How many times does HT have to repeat that it is a non-violent organisation? Even if some people who are loosley affiliated with HT and are involved with criminality, that doesn't mean HT as an organisation condones it. If you expand this twisted logic, then it means the whole police are racists, just because some individuals police are.

  • 32.
  • At 12:44 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Wafaa wrote:

This is the most biased and unfair report I ever watched from news at night. The whole report is very inhomogeneous, very badly put together, sending a very aggressive message to the UK Muslims, and totally failed to justify the reasons for this attack, or the reasons were very feeble and very hard to believe. I think this report was under minding the intelligence of the BBC viewers who are dealing and living peacefully with the UK Muslims since long time.
In addition, the reconstruction was disgusting and doesn't represent the HT, but it is only representing any group of thugs in the street. I can't understand why BBC2 decided to join this racist government on this propaganda war against UK Muslims. The behaviour of this government is understandable that they want to put all the blame on the Muslim community for their failing foreign policy in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, and Lebanon. But BBC2 shouldn't take sides, and must present a fair, balanced, and unbiased reports to their viewers. They owe it to their viewers who waited till 10: 30 at night to watch them. Please BBC2 apologise to your viewers for portraying the Muslim community like a big bad wolf without any justification!!!

  • 33.
  • At 12:51 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Don wrote:

Best left brief: "Newsnight produces Daily Sport journalism". If you had nothing better to report on, why not ask your viewers to suggest perhaps a story or two?

  • 34.
  • At 12:52 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • John Burt wrote:

I'm amazed that the above correspondents appear not to have investigated HT.
Their website appears relatively innocuous. They claim non-violence but their actual objective is the restoration of the Caliphate and the Ottoman Empire - except Worldwide this time.
That is - Sharia Law for everyone. They don't provide any contact method so you can't complain! Just like SPAM sites.
They are BANNED in many Arab countries. That must tell you something!!!
Islam apparently tolerates lies for certain purposes - including "war".

Dr Walid was very articulate and convincing but was he being truthful or telling ALL the truth?
Or does he really know what supporters are doing?
I was rather more convinced by the Muslim chaplain of the Metropolitan University who appears to have been threatened with death. I found no problem believing him.

Are some of the above correspondents actually HT supporters using aliases? I really wonder.
Whatever, I think that very serious investigation rather beyond the Newsnight one is now justified.

I would seriously have expected that Newsnight researchers had done rather more than me well before this report was broadcast!
I rather think they did and that Paxman was hence already aware of what he was dealing with.
If so then he was actually very restrained.

I have been an avid Newsnight viewer since it was first aired in 1980.

I am sad to say that tonight's episode was the last episode I will ever watch.

Richard Watson's 'investigative' piece was the last straw for me, after I have seen a deterioration in the programme over the last few years.

We expect the Muslim community to be more cohesive with the wider society when we produce ridiculous reports like this? What confidence can they have in the institutions of this country when they see these type of things?

  • 36.
  • At 12:54 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Eddy Kane wrote:

Although being a state funded channel, I never thought the bbc would lend itself to being prostituted by the government in trying to defame a well known organisation. It seemed the only thing left was the allegations of kiddy porn and dope peddling.
The government seems having failed to provide justification for its banning, so it has resorted to this kind of discrediting.
My advice leave the gutter journalism to the tabloids.

  • 37.
  • At 12:58 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • muhammed wrote:

for a refutation of newsnight arguement go to this link:
http://www.hizb.org.uk/hizb/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=488&Itemid=112

  • 38.
  • At 12:59 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Mary Lewin wrote:

This is the worst reporting i have witnessed on the BBC for a long time! The poor doctor in the studio was obvioulsly lost for words - he seemed taken aback by the allegations made against his organisation.

The report was full of strange half-facts! Come on Newsnight - this isn't reporting it seems politically motivated!

  • 39.
  • At 01:00 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • vaughan wrote:

I have come accross people from this organisation before. I can't say I like everything I have heard from them. But this report looked utterly unlike anything I've seen before. Are Newsnight certain they got it correct?

  • 40.
  • At 01:03 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Darren wrote:

The bias reporting of the BBC is to be expected. As clearly illustrated by Craig Murray (former ambassador of Uzbekistan)in his book murder in Samarkand about HT 'they are against violence'. I also think its worth to mention the British governments' blind eye to support governments overseas who torture political dissidents. The BBC has reinforced misconceptions of Islam and groups, both at home and abroard in order to fulfil their agenda of colonisation.

Truth is a concept irrelevant to Jeremy and Richard. I'm sure it'll further their career.

  • 41.
  • At 01:04 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Jay Jae wrote:

I'm no relation of "J". Richard Watson bought grade 1 crack cocaine from me before putting together this piece so he was high. I don't want to appear on camera for fear of reprisals - please disguise my voice and my appearance.

He also made me steal a monkey from the local zoo for an experiment on Darwinism and Paxman.

Seriously, how credible are the allegations you made tonight? You have done yourself a great injustice.

  • 42.
  • At 01:17 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Darren wrote:

The bias reporting of the BBC is to be expected. As clearly illustrated by Craig Murray (former ambassador of Uzbekistan)in his book murder in Samarkand about HT 'they are against violence'. I also think its worth to mention the British governments' blind eye to support governments overseas who torture political dissidents. The BBC has reinforced misconceptions of Islam and groups, both at home and abroard in order to fulfil their agenda of colonisation.

Truth is a concept irrelevant to Jeremy and Richard. I'm sure it'll further their career.

  • 43.
  • At 01:23 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Susan wrote:

Currently there is a climate of Islamaphobia. Most journalists have jumped on the bandwagon and are desperate for stories of crazy, extreme radical muslims. They are currently newsworthy. I know HT and I know that what was shown isn't true. Why can't we be angry about what's happening in the world today and want things to change and be better for all of us?

  • 44.
  • At 01:27 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Majid wrote:

If Abdul Wahid was supposed to be an extremist, I think he did a good job of hiding it... And if Paxman was supposed to be a mature presenter, he did a good job of hiding it.

By doing a simple Google on HT, it lead to an article in The Times dated 27 July 2005 source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1710349,00.html

where it states that "Along with mainstream groups, radical and fringe sects hold large meetings in Birmingham, including Hizb Ur-Tahrir and al-Muhajiroun, two groups condemned by President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan in a speech last week in which he said "there is a lot to be done in England" to combat Islamic extremism.

"There is Hizb Ur-Tahrir and al-Muhajiroun, who operate with full impunity in that area," said General Musharraf, referring to Britain as a whole. "They had the audacity of passing an edict against my life and yet they operate with impunity."


AND ALSO (from the same article)

"Hizb Ur-Tahrir, which calls for a worldwide Islamic caliphate, has been banned from British university campuses by the National Union of Students after holding controversial recruitment sessions. "

Why should Newsnight be condemned for showing the true face of militant organisations like HT? The public has a right to know what is going on in their own country - as we still have the freedom to do so! Jeremy was brilliant as always. Why shouldn't he question Dr Wahid?

As for post 13 : "Handing out leaflets, however obnoxious their contents may be, is part of the doctrine of free speech, THE main pillar of democracy, and must unconditionally be allowed." I disagree with whole heartedly, as these leaflets are inciting racial hatred by distributing racist material!

Also note that "Hizb ur-Tahrir ..is outlawed in Germany" source: Matthew Tempest and agencies, The Guardian http://www.ihrc.org.uk/show.php?id=1494
and people defend the HT?????

  • 46.
  • At 01:35 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • joe wrote:

pack of lies paxman!!!!!!

  • 47.
  • At 01:49 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Liam Coughlan wrote:

The BBC is a public service broadcaster with an obligation to promote and protect all of the public interest, and not just one subset. Highly persuasive and articilate people are required to persuade any UK citizen to commit suicide and murder. It may well be that the particular group so elequently defended this evening is not itself active in recruiting volunteers for Jihad. Nevertheless, the websites do exist, and radicalization is happening, as so violently demonstrated on July 7th.

Jeremy did well tonight, as did his interviewee. The public may come away feeling that this interviewee has nothing to do with prmoting terrorism, or represents a part of his organisation that is not. However, few can doubt that the insidious campaign to arm and deploy terrorists is underway in the UK and there seems to be a willing collection of fools that will believe it.

The prosecution of Rumsfeld will do as much to restore confidence in the West's rule of law and democratic system.

  • 48.
  • At 02:15 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Shabana wrote:

The report linking radicalisation, crime,violence and hatred to the Political party Hizbut Tharir is beyond absurd any one who has had contact withthe organisation by way of its literature and in action will see that the report is totally factually incorrect.

The level of journalism was absurd, a one-sided view. Why did the reporter not dicuss the work of the Hizbuttahrir inthe community? why were no Members interviewed??
Surely such grave accusations mustgive the accused a chance to respond to the allegations in the report, as oppoes to giving them a 2minute studion interview to refute such allegations. The reporter should have thoroughly investigate the Hizbutatirs work nad then made his conclousions. Shoddy journalism.

  • 49.
  • At 02:16 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • khalid A wrote:

why would hizb ut tahrir want to lie about their aims and objectives. if they say they condemn terrorism, then they mean it.

with regards to post 44, just because the group is banned in many countrys, it does not mean that they promote terrorism. quoting dictator musharaf is simply a joke, of course he hates HT, he among most muslim dicatators hate opposition, especially oppostion which is intellectual!

and it is completly mad to refer to them as 'militant', they have since there inception been against violent methods to achieve their objective.

  • 50.
  • At 02:19 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • karl wrote:

It seems to me reading many of these posts, "dissinformation" peddled by this government are being adopted by all political groups, whatever their aims.
Tony Blairs style of governance has turned the cynics into PR masters and the beleivers into the iron fist.
This country is dissolving at the seems - 20 years ago groups where calling for Shariah law in Muslim areas - civil conflict on the scale of the Balkans is not too far ahead the way things are going.
Is it only me who's terrified what the future may bring?

  • 51.
  • At 02:43 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Rajon wrote:

I would never have thought a day would come when a public news broadcasting organisation, created to air news in a just,fair and un-biased manner would stoop so low, that it broadcasts cut-n-paste jobs with shody claims in order get a cheap thrill.
What is more surprising though, is the allegations made against HT. The HT website is up and running even now, and has been for many years, open to the general public without any membership forms to fill in. all the information is staring the bbc in the face, yet it runs after claims made by tom,dick and harry, you really should be applauded for your journalistic investigation techniques.
What more ridiculous though is that my local mosque is croydon mosque, and many muslims aswell as myself were shocked by the both intimidation oof the bbc crew aswell as the ccommittee member! Ht have been there ofor many years and though we have our differences we always get along. I can guarentee the BBC that in no way does this interviewees' views and claims represent majority of the muslims in croydon mosque of that even of many mosque committee members.
BBC should really be ashamed, at its cheap jab at a non-violent organisation who are sincerely working for reforms in the muslim countries living under oppressive regimes.

  • 52.
  • At 03:14 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Abu Laith wrote:

As a muslim who was born and brought up in the UK, I was shocked by the report on HT. I felt as though I was living in some autocratic tyrannical regime, that seeks to ban any form of political dissent it doesn't like. And if it doesn't have the evidence to ban such a group then it would simply make up the allegations (and use state run media to peddle those allegations). The sad thing is that I dont live in an autocratic regime (supposedly) I live in the UK, and the state run media is funded by MY taxes.
To say that the programme was full of lies is an understatement but yet how did such a programme get aired in the first place? Everyone who has met HT members knows that it doesnt go around mugging little old grannies for money, nor do they go around carrying knives and swords to engage in gang fights, it just sounds so ridiculas. Even if you disagree with their political views you cant help but think that this programme was full of nonesense and does not constitute serious journalism. It seems that lazy journalism as well as sensationalism has become the norm when it comes to reporting about Muslims. I just hope this madness stops amonsgt the journalists. And I dont think they will learn until they are taken to court.

  • 53.
  • At 03:40 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Charles Hastings wrote:

As a white middle class male who has watched newsnight for 40 years and whose doctor, dermatoligist and dentist are all white middle class females who belong to HT this will be the last time I watch Newsnight.

  • 54.
  • At 04:27 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Bilal Kureshi wrote:

hi ther,
its me bilal ...
i saw ur program Redicalizing Britain's Muslim Youth....
and in tht program u hav on aired footages which contain false image of the party ht....
i do hav a fair idea how this organisation actually works and to my knowledge they strongally oppose violance ....
i can never believe that ht could be involved in any such matters u hav attributed to them ...
i m to make a complaint about the footages u hav on aired which are strongally against the party aims and methods .....
to my knoweldge it is an islamic political party which represents the good image of islam ....
and i was really hurt while watching ur program which really demaged the party's image....
i hope u ll clearify the videos u hav shown and u ll give ht the fair chance to respond to the allegations u hav made ...
u know u showed the different footages for about 20 mintutes containing the relevant info about ht but u gave the ht representative only 5 minz to clearify the situation.....
i hope u understand our emotions and will give ht the fair chance to respond to ur allegations.....

  • 55.
  • At 04:53 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Nabeel Hanif wrote:

What a shame! such a nice programme seen by millions like me with great interest simply got convinced by a bunch of right wing nightwalkers!
I,ll be interesting to see how the legal proceedings go against the BBC. And geremy Paxman certainly owes an apology to the Poor Doctor from HT, For God Sake geremy let them Speak!

  • 56.
  • At 06:30 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • mj wrote:

Why has the standard of journalism on a flagship show stooped so low. You have no need to compete with the tabloid media.

Can you in future carry out some serious investigative journalism. Please do not go about making such programmes with what appears to be an inherent bias or already pre-conceived notions from the outset.

Please remember as a public service you must not peddle the views of the prevailing wind - but you must carry out serious and balanced research.

Tonights programme was so one sided and biased I am surprised the piece shown, passed the editorial controls at the BBC. I hope the BBC are taken to task in any future court case on this piece of so called journalism.

  • 57.
  • At 07:00 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Abdullah Zamir wrote:

Me and my wife watched the report on HT in utter disbelief. What nonsense. Nobody in the Muslim community will be fooled by this gutter "journalism". Unfortunately this was aimed squarley at the uninformed and sadly will have the desired effect.

If you had simply done a google search on VIGIL and "Dominic Whiteman" you will see that they are neocon outfit pushing an anti-Islam agenda.

The hoodie that pushed the reporter wasn't even handing out leaflets. For all we know he could have been from VIGIL. Did you get his name???

As for muggings, do you honestly think people who do that are interested in leafleting political meetings which feature muslim and non-muslim speakers and audience members.

Shame.

  • 58.
  • At 07:07 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • vikingar wrote:

NEWSNIGHT - TUESDAY - 14Nov06

Really interesting programme tonight. As diverse stories from Islam Radicalisation in the UK to Cancer & Human Rights group going after Rumsfield.

3/10 Dr Abdul Wahid - Executive Committee, Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain [1a]
5/10 Dr Wolfgang Kalek - Human Right Lawyer [1b]
7/10 Sarah Hiom - Cancer UK - deputy director of cancer information [1c]
7/10 Dr Emma Pennery - Breast Cancer Care [1d]
7/10 Peter Marshall - Corresponent [1e]
8/10 Jeremy Paxman - Presenter [1f]
9/10 Richard Watson - Correspondent [1g] [1h]

ISLAMIC EXTREMISM:

The VT piece ref growing extremism (in many forms) speaks for itself - widespread examples - highly recommended - enough said & best watched.

A great BBC / Newsnight / File on Four expose - you are to be congratulated on yet another sound journalist foray.

Relived to hear other Muslims voices coming forward * despite the reported cases of intimidation by Islamic Extremists/Radicals.

Trust the Muslim believers who attend these gatherings will back up the leadership who is attempting to wrestle & steer their religion as practiced in the UK away from the extremist rocks. Hope the majority in Britain's various Muslims communities will be similarly inspired to stand up & be identified, given it's your religions .. collectively it is our home & country.

* London Metropolitan Uni - Sheikh Musa Admani (Muslim chaplain) [2a]
* Croydon Mosque - Shaaib Yusaf (trustee) [2b]

Ref Bakri Mohammed terrorist net broadcasts, does the radical have any assets in the UK we can impound & what presentations can UK government make to Lebanese government ref such terrorist activities from this discredited radical.

DR ABDUL WAHID:

I only hope his bedside manner is more credible that his attempt at a polite indignant portrayal of a 'organisation wronged'. It would have perhaps have been more credible if the audience had not just seen the previous VT & actions of people recorded (esp their interactions with each other as they distributed Hizb ut-Tahrir literature) & are undoubtedly aware of numerous intolerant previous examples of Hizb ut-Tahrir behaviour & utterances [3a] [5a-5f]

Looks of incredulous disbelief, whilst promoting a kind of 'what us … no way' defence is not believable, Dr Abdul Wahid et al only demonstrated a distinct lack of credibility, fooling no one & still have much to learn about the opposite of 'denial' that of damage control via 'admittance' - works wonders :).

The discredited blatant dismissals & denials of Dr Abdul Wahid, reminded me of a posters denouncement 'Sahra, Sheffield, UK' of Sheikh Musa Adman (mentioned above) in a reply to The Times' article, about the Imam efforts to tackle extremism in universities [3b]

Similarly, the 1st post on tonight's blog could this 'Olusola O. Muhammad' be one Olusola Odesanya-Muhammad whose religious writings can be found in 'Nations of Islam' publication/website 'The Final Call To Power'. A site offering various Nation of Islam religious material, CBS interview by Iranian President Ahamdienjags, sitting right next to Conspiracy Theory videos about 911 & July Bombings [3c]

HIZB UT TAHRIR (sunni):

Founded in 1953, Hizb ut Tahrir has been banned in nearly every Arab state, Germany, Russia and the Muslim states of Central Asia — Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan — where it has been active since the dissolution of the Soviet Union [5a]

Does UK government still plan to ban Hizb ut Tahrir [5b]

Aware that British National Union of Students have banned Hizb ut-Tahrir from British University Campuses [5c] & also MPAC [5d] Al Muhajiroun [5e] [5f] who incidentally Richard Watson has also interviewed [5e]

Now we have Hizb ut Tahrir banned from a Mosque (croydon - anywhere else?)

Watching Islamic radical / extremist organisation like Hizb ut-Tahrir finding their feet in British Culture esp when dealing with the media - simultaneously is encouraging, fascinating, worrying, entertaining & laughable.

- Encouraging: demonstration that they are trying to engage in British cultural mechanisms & therefore as a consequence of that, the organisation & people involved will change.

- Fascinating: its like watching a naughty unsophisticated but clever child learning new boundaries when the of eye authority is on them (last chance variety).

- Worrying: undoubtedly Hizb ut-Tahrir 'civil' respun approach provides a mask of respectability to would be opponents/critics (willing to give them yet another chance) & those vulnerable to their propaganda.

- Entertaining: they seem wholly unaware of the duplicity they amply demonstrate. But they cannot hide their history & activity to date (yet alone multiple demonstrations of intolerance when their members mask slips, let alone 'other agendas' they undoubtedly pursue & allegedly have engaged in according to investigations)

- Laughable: farcical denial & having to defend and/or disassociate the activity of people caught on camera handing our their literature, the alleged insider revelations, other Muslim's denouncements, & litany of past behaviour.

Q. why the Hizb ut-Tahrir change in approach?

ANS: Hizb ut-Tahrir are aware that they have to now walk a tight rope because of their dubious track record in relation to the changes in the UK brought about by domestic British Islamic terrorist acts, new laws & prosecutions by CPS.

Thus non members have to interpret & translate the multi faced approaches of this organisation:

- its Islamic face
- its public kuffar/kafir face
- its members only face

HIZB UT TAHRIR 'LANGUAGE':

A rather insightful extract revealing how Hizb ut-Tahrir feels about the UK:

"The large-scale criminality that exists within the country has undoubtedly begun to creep into the Muslim community over the past few years. Regrettably, where once drugs, violent crime, robbery, prostitution and other crimes were seen as the preserve of the indigenous community many young Muslims have now embarked upon these activities and the associated lifestyles that go with it" [6a]

SUMMARY:

If a non indigenous organisation like Hizb ut-Tahrir, looking to establish & promote the Islamic extremists equivalent of 'Camelot' ** & regards non Muslims as Kuffar (where anything goes) one presumes that besides anti social activity, alleged/actual/potential criminal activity, an active campaign to disengage from British Society & its cultural norms, shared values & customs (e.g. don't vote) ..... LYING & DENIAL i.e. PR & communication exchanges with press ... will be rather small beer to them.

** fantasy kingdom

A message for 'Hizb ut-Tahrir' - there is nothing more British (& therefore ultimately kuffar) than to seek legal redress for alleged 'defamatory allegations' [7] within the British Legal System … welcome aboard - for the duration of your stay in your current incarnation.

Given the number of 'Hizb ut-Tahrir' pro-posts above their followers certainly answered the organisations orchestrated call [8]

btw - if 'Hizb ut-Tahrir' are so great, why have they been so banned :)

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1a] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizb_ut-Tahrir_in_the_United_Kingdom
[1b] http://www.rcpbml.org.uk/wdie-03/d03-76.htm
[1c] http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/
[1d] http://www.breastcancercare.org.uk/content.php?page_id=307
[1e] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3094383.stm
[1f] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Paxman
[1g] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4375598.stm
[1h] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1543886.stm
[2a] http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2449930,00.html
[2b] http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/registeredcharities/showtrustees.asp?Chy=285030&Reg=285030&Type=Main+Charity&Name=CROYDON+MOSQUE+AND+ISLAMIC+CENTRE&SubID=
[3a] http://www.hizb.org.uk/hizb/index.php
[3b] http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2449930,00.html
[3c] http://www.fctp.co.uk/tsunami19.asp
[4a] http://www.hizb.org.uk/hizb/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=455&Itemid=184
[5a] http://www.worldpress.org/Europe/2146.cfm
[5b] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4127642.stm
[5c] http://www.nusonline.co.uk/news/pressreleases/270231.aspx
[5d http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/2057/1/
[5e] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3670007.stm
[5f] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4449714.stm
[6a] http://www.hizb.org.uk/hizb/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=455&Itemid=184
[7] http://www.hizb.org.uk/hizb/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=482&Itemid=112
[8] http://www.hizb.org.uk/hizb/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=489&Itemid=109

  • 59.
  • At 07:53 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Rosemund Gantree wrote:

Come on, come on! I’m not even a supporter of Jeremy's style of reporting! However, could I ask you - where else would an extremist hide to propagate his radical and hate filled doctrines...? Obviously within the sanctity of a well established "moderate" group - if you say so - such as the HT.... This is where investigative journalism shines - not with ‘outing’ the married but clandestine homosexual activities of x or y MP; nor vilifying Madonna for daring to adopt a non UK child... It is here picking at the bleeding, pussy sore of the hidden face and agenda of the few Extreme British Muslims who hide in dirty crevices behind the righteous to propagate hatred and murder amongst us... They don't just kill soldiers; middle ‘white’ England; or the multi faith/racial working class who have to travel on the tube you know! Liberals like me need to get off the fence and defend their right to be free thinking, innovative and part of the advancement of UK society and the human race at large.

I came across this site today during some online searches, however just yesterday and throughout this week the Beeb have been lampooned and accused of being a supporter of Muslims disregarding the prevalent majority Christian or secular population in this society – decide please, whether it is right to try to investigate and decipher the whims of extremist fascists and the perils currently facing this society or are you happy to do as your liberal ancestors did in the early days of Hitler – turn a blind eye to evil, their vehement doctrine until it marches up to you and slaps you in the head or shoots your equally intellectual mate (elsewhere in Europe) in the head because of his faith, political opinion or colour? It is a conceited man who does not recognise the ability of others (those different to him – different in class, faith and race) to be equally cunning, equally able to motivate and change opinion amongst his peers and those he considers being beneath him…This is the extremists' advantage on the mojority of us in the UK. This is what I accuse some of you of – conceited self-righteous liberalism which enabled the Nazis (allowed them) to manoeuvre into a position of strength… You do not have a good record when it comes to recognising a threat to those things you hold dear – this society and the philosophy of democracy which you idealized, discussed and rightly were eventually able to put into practice.

Moreover, I am keen on (even if I do not believe the majority) conspiracy theories and I will say that the Joe’, Jay’s and Dan’s could well actually be extremist Saher’s and Ahmeds contributing to this post.

While you dither and debate the rights and wrongs of various news items and jounalistic investigations I will as a part of a distinct minority group keep a watch on both my children, their children and also any extremists within other minority groups who decide that killing me or my kids is a way to religious salvation, political gain, or a way to social prominence within this society or globally, purely because their faith is 'The Faith'.

  • 60.
  • At 08:46 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Brian Kelly wrote:

When MI5 issues figures on potential/actual 100,000 Islamic fundamentalists in Britain... it is so alarming we need to call a national emergency with a coalition Government. We must ask ourselves that if this issue is accelerating by the day, & the Muslim Community cannot police their Faith in line with Britishness, hard , very hard unpalatable measures must be taken. Certainly the weasel words we hear from our authorities seem to inflame the Jihadists.If we play with these present policies ..it could implode on the Country.

  • 61.
  • At 09:01 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Faraz wrote:

Shame shame shame on the BBC. It seems the already low level of journalism that is being displayed by all western media outlets in this relentless tirade on Islam is only being exacerbated as time goes on.
I can say with great confidence that while i am not a member of HT, i hold people in this party in the highest regard as humans, not just as muslims. There is NO criminal activity, there is no such stupidity as we see depicted. On the point of "cells", whichever sell out was used to gather such information, it is COMMON KNOWLEDGE that this is HT's modus operandii, and is in no way a secret that they seek to protect from the masses. If only the western media could wake up and see what such common knoweldge was, it would greatly decrease the chances of another attack on its own soil, given it is such trash that provokes action from the Muslim youth, not the "actions of extremist elements such as HT", which, funnily enough, not only dont use violence as a means to political change, but actively condemn its use a la 7-7.

  • 62.
  • At 09:05 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Mr Abdus Salam wrote:

Sir, I watched your programme with dismay and with an element of disappointment of the BBC. As a professional I would like to say that the facts shown on the programme on HT is wholly untrue and contradicts the party’s aims and objective. I have heard of HT to be a forward thinking and very interactive with the wider community who encourage debate and dialogue. HT reputations are based on intellectual dialogue and are distanced to using violence. I feel the confusion is arising from the fact that you are linking HT with Al Muhajiroun whom are banned, they are not connected in any way.

Regards

Mr Abdus Salam (London)

  • 63.
  • At 09:05 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Charles Saury wrote:

LOL

The peice about HT was so devoid of facts that they had to use actors and a shadow to portray events.

Also about outing that guy on the Immigration Office. I see. If your an unemployed muslim activist you're a sponging leeching scrounger. If you've got a good job you're subversive. Sheesh give me a break. Shameful standard of reporting.

  • 64.
  • At 09:29 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Robin wrote:

I found a simple contradition in the reporting last night. One one hand the reporter said that there were hundreds of terror cells, and on the other hand they said it was the biggest threat *SINCE* the IRA.

Given the number of terror cells is the fact and the comment about the IRA is the interpretation - surely the correct interpretation should be "a bigger threat THAN the IRA."

Another issue not addressed is WHY have so many terror cells. The obvious point is that the more cells you have the more likely they are to be compromised. Are they working on the basis that somebody will get through or are they building up a force or are they just finding recruitment so easy?

  • 65.
  • At 09:32 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Hanif C wrote:

I am absolutely disgusted with last night’s report on HT, I would expect this sort of reporting in a Tabloid. I really hope Jeremy Paxman will personally apologies on air for such baseless slandering of HT, and to all the viewers for such disgraceful journalism
.
For ordinary Muslim, watching TV and reading the papers has recently become so dreaded, due to one thing or another being reported on Muslims with all sorts of accusations and finger pointing, that now I only watch very few current affairs programs such as Newsnight for its history of balanced reporting, and I really hope Newsnight will take immediate action to correct itself.

  • 66.
  • At 09:39 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Shah wrote:

It is outrageous to find internationally recognised BBC to be so IRRESPONSIBLE and UNTRUTHFULL in its broadcast. Once again the BBC or should I say the Governments media tool has blindly attacked the Muslim community and Islam by falsely accusing yet another Muslim group. It is not only the Muslim community but also the public at large that no longer trust the government and its policies as well as being apprehensive about Media bias and lies.

I would like to see the BBC to invite Muslims from different groups to discuss what they really stand for than to stage a pre-planned attack to meet own objectives that fulfil the governments erroneous propaganda to demonise Islam.

To accuse anyone of crime just because someone has claimed membership of a party is absurd. Anyone can hide there identity and state that “the Labour party is full of criminals and thugs and so I left the party”. How can this be responsible Broadcasting?
Everyone is Liar just because i the BBC has the power to manipulate the truth. Is this what it is all about?

  • 67.
  • At 09:48 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Bill wrote:

I don't know anything about extremist muslim groups (we don't have many down in Cornwall, as far as I know) but I do know sensationalist, spurious and largely unsubstantiated news reporting when I see it. I suspect that Paxman himself was embarrassed by how thin the story was, which was why his interview was conducted in a manner which ensured that his interviewee was unable to fully expose the report for the shoddy journalism that it was. The media is full of this anti-islamic propaganda; we certainly don't need any more from Newsnight.
PS. Isn't it time to give Eddie Mair another shot at presenting the show? His quiet, dry but incisive interviewing technique is so much more successful than Paxman's offensive belligerence.

  • 68.
  • At 10:01 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Paula Varley wrote:

I hope Newsnight will do a follow-up on the piece on HT, when they have had a chance to look more thoroughly into all the issues raised above. I found the allegations against the organisation very hard to believe. I haven't had a great deal of contact with HT, but I did attend the march in the summer in London, calling for a ceasefire in the Israeli assault on the Lebanon, where I met some members of the organisation. They were very polite, and the literature they were distributing was extremely well written, thoughtful and interesting.

Richard Watson's piece did not ring true.

  • 69.
  • At 10:06 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Aboo Sulaaymaan wrote:

This was targetted at the non-muslim community who don't know HT.

This sort of stuff wouldn't wash with the Muslim community. I can never relate them to anything in that report. I have minor disagreements with them but generally agree with what they say. It's all made up lies, why this tabloid journalism on BBC's flagship news programme?

Why bring someone from the Organisation if he can't speak?

If you wanted to defame them, you could have made a better go of it!! This was just utter rubbish. No wonder the dr didn't know what to say!!!!

  • 70.
  • At 10:10 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Robert Hamilton wrote:

Watching the Vigil spokesman, I thought, this looks like a MI5-type rubbishing of HT. I then thought, surely Newnight had checked out Vigil. The answer seems to be no.
Why is Newsnight telling us this about HT? Would that the editor tell us this, in a way that I could believe. I can make wildish guesses. Trying to make Paxman look foolish is one, another joining in the Government's scarmongering against Islam is a second (it is a tense time over the licence fee renewal), another is that the BBC is sinking into the swamp of sensational journalism; not just a pity a great loss.

  • 71.
  • At 10:10 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Farha wrote:

If the report shown last night wasn't so damaging it would have been funny. The first part about Mr Bakri had evidence to back it up.

The next bit was just unbelieveable. The connection being made between criminals and an islamic group that is known to be quite 'orthodox' and 'strict' in following islam.
What was the evidence? A shady charachter who was not shown was allowed to say whatever he wanted. This was an outrageous piece of journalism, quite alarmist actually. I am not impressed, tut tut tut Newsnight!

  • 72.
  • At 10:15 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Dave wrote:

Brilliant. AT last BBC Newsnight has the guts and integrity to take on the radicals (rather than simply involve them).

Islamists blame the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Israel for the radicalisation of Muslim youth. This is rubbish.

There's two sides to every story. Afghanistan was the base of a group that declared war on the West. Saddam defied UN resolutions, endangered the world and was a menace to his own (Muslim) people and every attempt Israel makes to achieve peace, is ruined by Islamists who can not accept the existence of Israel.

Radical groups like HT, warp world politics to make it look like the West is at war with Islam. They brainwash disaffected young kids with propaganda making localised gangs of of furious radicals.

When you question them on it, they blame the anger on Israel or British foreign policy.

There has to be a law against illegal religious gatherings and another law against petitioning outside places of worship.

The websites that promote (or allow the promotion) of terrorism should be blocked.

It's time to get serious.

  • 73.
  • At 10:25 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Kashif wrote:

It is shocking that Newsnight feel the feature on the radicalisation of Muslims and in particular the role played by Hizb-ut-Tahrir met any sort of journalistic standards.

Although I am not a member I do know several HT members and of their projects and have had very little reason to believe that they are any other than a non violent group.

Even if you disregard my personal sentiments, nothing shown or any evidence provided on Newsnight swayed me from this view.

It was nothing but good old fashioned scaremongering. It was gutter journalism, Omar Bakri is saying controversial statements (of course he does, hardly ground breaking news, isn’t that why he was thrown out of the UK?) HT are not wanted by some mosque committees ergo they must be violent (No doubt in a few months time we’ll get a similar Newsnight expose about how Mosques and their committees are failing to understand the needs of everyday Muslims!) Associating HT with Al Muhajiroun and its controversial nature at several points during the item doesn't necessarily mean that HT adopts the same ideology as Al Muhajiroun!

Muslims in this country have every right to hold a political opinion as their fellow British citizens, yet when they do (and if they are under 25) then they are labelled radicals and troublemakers.

Newsnight showed no more evidence of HT radicalising such youths than the likes of MPAC or the Muslim Council of Britain. Should we ban these too!?

  • 74.
  • At 10:30 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • shazia wrote:

last night we wached news night and it was an embarresment for bbc being a gerenalist it was an apoling report.but news night has demaged his repotation by showing some one called mr j who was talking about hizburthahrir this mr j could be any one may be news night reporter or some one against islam[like the media now a days]aal our community is going to file a petition against bbc.because of there actions more muslims will hurt and more bnp leaders will come out and talk about hatred about islam and muslims.I think bbc should appoligise for this useless report.thank you for yuor timebut please pass this on to jermy.

  • 75.
  • At 10:33 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Mohammad Waseem wrote:

I was watching Newsnight last night with my family as usual. To say I was shocked would be an understatement.

Living in the UK one becomes used to anti-Islamic slander being thrown about by the tabloid press most with out any foundation whatsoever.

But when you see so called flagship channels like the BBC, the standard bearers for quality journalism throughout the world, resorting to accusations without evidence you sense desperation.

Normally there is a picture painted about groups like HT because of their thoughts and ideas, so the media accuse them of being extreme. At least this is a clash of ideas and some debate and discussion can take place and misconceptions can be corrected.

But please don't insult my intelligence by trying to make me believe the so called extremists are now some kind of Mafia group, who make their recruits go through an initiation process that includes criminal activity, and if the BBC has evidence as they claim, I will be keeping my eyes peeled and ears open when the case of the person who instructed "J" to steal comes to court.

Criminality should be stopped at all levels of society be they gangs or media.

On another note Mr. Paxman needs to take a chill pill don't shout over people it’s rude and uncivilized.

As they say the BBC does what it does because of the unique way it is funded by me.

I for one want a refund on my licence fee.

As for the comments by "Rosemund Gantree" above who seems to think that most of the posts are probably from extremists. Rosemund, this is actually me, I'm Muslim I do like living in the UK. I tried to submit a DNA sample for analysis by M15 via this webform, but despite working in the industry I couldn't make it work. It seems you need permission to speak these days is this the UK or Iraq under Saddam’s rule.

  • 76.
  • At 10:54 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Allestair Scarbrough wrote:

Yesterday i had lost all respect for newsnight from its report about Hisb al Tahrir, Mainly for two reasons,
1. Politically motivated reporting
2. twisted, fabricted lies about Hisb al thrir
3. Cowboy reporting from paxman

  • 77.
  • At 10:59 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Anamul Islam wrote:

I've known HT for 12 years. The members that I have personally had contact with are GP's, lawyers, teachers, IT workers, civil servants. Thank you newsnight for uncovering that these professionals are also criminal gang members in their spare time. To correct HT in the UK I suggest that you either: 1)Point out to them that their members since the parties inception have been tortured in the most horrendous ways (e.g. being boiled alive), in other countries for their non-violent methods and so they have erred for delving into criminality 2) Fund and set up the kangaroo courts to convict them and also provide an alternative labour force in the communities that HT members work in otherwise you may be seen to be depriving the communities of their key services

  • 78.
  • At 11:05 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • abdurrahman wrote:

i found the report in newsnight about the group HT unbelievable! to say the least. the allegations are baseless. the party has been known world wide for its peacefull approach. and never have been associated with violence. even under the dictator islam karimov the torturer of uzbekistan the members have stuck to there non-violent approach.

  • 79.
  • At 11:26 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Deen wrote:

The Newsnight report alleging Hizb ut Tahrir is involved in violence and encourages criminality is outrageous. I can not understand how a programme of such a high standard can drop to such a low level. No evidence was shown to backup the claims made against HT. When will the BBC stopping attacking the Muslim Community and get involved in some honest journalism?

  • 80.
  • At 11:27 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • knotty wrote:

Total hatchet job.

Underhand investigative techniques used to support the far right wing agenda.

These "journalists" were very selective about the information they presented so that they did not weaken an already flimsy hypothesis.

Of course nobody wants to see young people exploited, but extremists are present in all faiths and this problem not just restricted to Islam.

By the way - I am white, middle aged and pagan!

  • 81.
  • At 11:30 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Khalid Bryce wrote:

Once again another major media outlet has got it all wrong when reporting on Hizb ut Tahir. Any journalist with credentials knows that the Hizb do not advocate violence and its a disgrace the BBC can get it so wrong. When will opposition learn to debate with the Hizb on their views instead of making up stories and lies to try and discredit the party. Is it maybe they cant win the debate so choose the latter option?

  • 82.
  • At 11:40 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Khalid Bryce wrote:

I find it funny how people can try and use the Hizb being banned in the Islamic World as some sort of justification for a bogus report such as this. Hizb ut Tahir are banned in much of the Islamic World because they oppose the tyrannical regimes. They have not been found guilty of terrorism, there crime is speaking out against the dictators and calling for a Khilafah state in the Islamic World. Yet as we know if anyone advocates political change which doiesnt involve the word democracy he must be a radical terrorist. WHAT A JOKE!!!

  • 83.
  • At 11:43 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Haseeb wrote:

I was appalled by yesterdays Newsnight programme on the alleged radicalisation/criminalisation of Muslim Youth by Hizb ut Tahrir.
I am not a member of HT, but the allegations made against the group for apparently encouraging criminality amongst Muslim Youth are, in my view, completely baseless and contradict the excellent work that they have done in the community to move the youth away from drugs, violence and anti-social behaviour, a fact that was highlighted by Newsnight in 2004.
Indeed this appears to be another politically motivated, piece of Islamophobic gutter journalism against a group that has been vocal in criticising the governments abysmal foreign policy record in Iraq, Lebanon and the Middle East, which is really unbecoming of an institution that claims to pride itself on 'objective' journalism.
If you take time to speak to any members of HT, you will find them to be educated, highly articulate and reasonable members of the Muslim community, who are only being villified because of their political views.

Very poor show BBC and Newsnight, I would have expected better!

  • 84.
  • At 11:44 AM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • abu Zahhir wrote:

I was very disappointed with newsnight programme that showed how young Muslims are getting involved in drugs and linked that to reputable organisations like Hizbbut Tharir. Muslim groups like HT have been working with the community to bring these youngsters back from drugs and criminal activities. This false allegation will do NO good for BBC or for Community Cohesion.

  • 85.
  • At 12:04 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Teri Ma wrote:

I am previous member of HT and studied with them for 3years in my youthfull days.I left the party over personal issues and to this day see them as a proper Islamic organistation who have not sold out like the MCB.

What i have seen from your reporting is that is full of holes and completly inaccuarte. I have meet many of there members over the years and i never seen anything like that you have reported.

I feel the person in the Report by the name "J" is probably not even Muslim and he has made up a pack of lies for the reward of a few Pounds in this life.

Very dissapointing reporting from newsnight as this type of reporting is commonly found in the Sun.

Only a fool will belive what is reported there.

PS. I am not member of HT just a normal muslim who sees this as another attack on Islam.

  • 86.
  • At 12:13 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • John Hudson wrote:

Where was the balance in Richard Watson's piece - it seemed that the case against the Islamist organisation was made on the basis of a 'mole' called 'J' and a previous associate called 'Jawad'.

As for the 'mole' I was surprised that he was not even a BBC source but was provided to the BBC by the organisation "VIGIL". His credibility was said to revolve around Dominic Whiteman saying that he was credible as a witness. Well "J" has been working for "Vigil" - could Mr Whiteman have conceivably said that "J" was not reliable.

I note that the programme did not allege that "Jawad" was a member of the Islamist group - he was called an associate or something similar. For me, this seems very vague - what is an associate? Is it that he attended 1 meeting or that he once sold a member of the organisation something from his corner shop?

Even if the BBC wanted to make these allegations, the piece was not balanced - why not include comments from members of the Muslim community in South London who disagreed with Watson's findings? Why was no one from the police interviewed in relation to the alleged attack on a synagogue? Why were no academic experts like Dr Farouki from the University of Exeter not interviewed for their views on the organisation's methodology?

If Newsnight wants to maintain any kind of reputation then it must pass on to the police the entire dossier of evidence. If nothing comes of this, then nothing short of a public apology can atone for these glaring errors in the production of this report.

Newsnight may argue that it gave the organisation a right to reply - however that seemed shambolic - the spokesman was obviously taken aback by what he saw and heard and Mr Paxman hardly let the poor chap speak. You cannot give balance to an almost 20 minute piece by interrupting a nervous interviewee repeatedly over 2-3 minutes. You must also have other contributions to the overall piece.

I think such sensationalist journalism will backfire on the BBC. Judging by the responses above, few in the Muslim community, can believe the claims that this is some sort of shadowy organisation.

Just last Friday, Kirsty Wark seemed to harangue another of their spokesmen for not partipating in parliamentary democracy, while last night you criticise one of the members of this group for working as a civil servant. Do you not see the contradiction?

  • 87.
  • At 12:20 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Londoner wrote:

I don't agree with many things HT say, but I know enough about them to say with confidence that they are not a violent anti-social organisation.

Also, the particular event involving 'knives and swords' was actually a youth gang-related fight that just happened to occur outside the Croydon Mosque. A few of the regular HT leafleteers were outside and they actually tried to intervene to stop the violence - there are enough witnesses to confirm this, so it's strange why the Beeb didn't bother. The Mosque trustee shown was unfortunately misinformed.

  • 88.
  • At 12:38 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Abu Khadijah wrote:

I'm not a supporter of HT, far from it. But this programme was a load of crap! Absolute rubbish! So the Muslim community has a gang problem and veral youth - so does every other community, you can't mix that up with calculating, educated mass murderers and terrorists - what?!

BBC is desperate , what a load of rubbish.

  • 89.
  • At 12:42 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Khalid Bryce wrote:

Is it any surprise to see a Mosque trustee try and discredit Hizb ut Tahir. Mosques up and down the country have problems with any Islamic Groups who are politically motivated. Not because they spread hatred but because they try and make a mosque what it should be, the heartbeat of the community and not just a place to read one's prayers.

  • 90.
  • At 12:50 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • GeoffinUS wrote:

Please refrain from associating the terrorists in our midst with the term, "British Jihad." Many Muslims, and not just the young & impressionable ones, associate this term with a noble and just struggle. There is nothing noble or just about plotting to kill and maim innocent civilians.

  • 91.
  • At 01:04 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Iain Houston wrote:

I've no way of knowing whether Newsnight's allegations against HT were well-founded or not but I was not impressed by the standard of journalism. The piece begged more questions than it answered and I would like to see more investigative reporting about 'Vigil' and who 'privately funds' it. Either Dr. Wahid is a very smooth operator or was genuinely maligned, so clearly we need squeaky clean and a much more credible standard of reporting of his organisation and its activities from the BBC.
In any case; no-one in our culture - neither HT nor the BBC - should put together a film intended to whip up the negative emotions of its audience.

  • 92.
  • At 01:05 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Ian M wrote:

Thank you Newsnight - an expose of HT is long overdue by our National Broadcaster.
Well done Jeremy for not letting the good Doctor run off at the mouth.
I only hope that HT are banned as soon as possible - no organisation that aims to replace demcoracy with theocracy should be allowed to exist on British soil.
Hopefully we will now see the usual kneejerk reaction from the Home Office & of course, the denials & outrage from so called moderate Muslims.

  • 93.
  • At 01:20 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Charlie, London wrote:

watched Newsnight last night.
Your having a laugh aren't you. You expect people to believe that dribble about this HT group.
1. I've read about Islam and they teach that its wrong to steal or mug etc. How can an Islamic group tell people to do that then, obviously something wrong with your "100 per cent truthful informant".
2. Last time I saw the news, terrorism, killing or civilians were activities that this govt. were dong along with the US everywhere around the world (and have done for the last 50 years).
3. Dont Christians call the Muslims saracen infedels, and Blair call it all an evil ideology, so why only focus on what Muslims think about the final destination of non-muslims. They couldn't say they believe in the truth otherwise...

I think the beeb should take a long hard look at themselves, I mean, I know they get some money from the govt. but talk about being a mouth piece or what...

Its articles like this that must be annoying muslim youth, (oh and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan).
The beeb must love stirring up trouble in the communities......

  • 94.
  • At 01:21 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Maqsood Ahmed wrote:

I watched in horror, your report on Newsnight (Tuesday 14/11/06) regarding the “criminal” activities of Hizb ut Tahrir.

Your report lacked evidence and substance, and it seems this is a style the BBC is adopting towards the muslim community. I have seen various reports, similar to yesterdays ( the report on the MCB comes to mind) which seem to suggest there is a hidden agenda, which is not very hidden, to demonise Muslim organisations and individuals.

HT are quite active in the town where I live Lancashire, they do some leaflet distribution, hold talks, arrange youth activity, and lots of other good. I have attended and discussed with the HT and have found them to be intelligent young men who are serving their community.

I am disgusted with the BBC and can only conclude that your independence and motives are questionable.

In future I think your researchers should do their job and research. A report should be pursued from an unbiased and impartial viewpoint, let your viewers make their own judgements.

I suggest you give 20 minutes of airtime for HT to refute the your report, and let the country know what exactly is it they do and what do they call for.

  • 95.
  • At 01:21 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Jamal wrote:

I would like to complain, about the blatant lie the BBC Newsnight program, as aired on national TV, regarding the Islamic group Hizb-ut-Tahrir. I myself know people affiliated to this group, who are part of our community. It can be clearly seen that what the Newsnight program has done, is compiled footage mixed with lies & half truths.

Anybody who knows the people from Hizb-ut-tahrir, will tell you that they are people of high moral and etiquette, and this programme clearly misrepresents them. If the BBC claims this, to be journalism, then it’s a sad day. This program is clearly an example of biased sensational journalism, blurring the line between real criminals and good law abiding productive members of our society. I find this program very hard to believe & I am disgusted at the fact that the BBC of all organisations, have decided to join this bandwagon of Islamaphobia plaguing our already victimised community.

  • 96.
  • At 01:30 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Shehzad Bashir wrote:

I felt compelled to write as I was outraged at the allegations made by Newsnight in regards to Hizb ut-Tahrir last night.

One the basis of one individual Newsnight maligned an entire organisation that has worked legally in British society in excess of a decade. An organisation that has contributed greatly to the well being of the Muslim community and engagement of wider society.

As a regular viewer of Newsnight who values the insight your programme gives I was deeply agrieved at the level of reporting that was used here.

Considering the amount of available information there is regarding this organisation and this was all ignored for the views of an individual is breath takingly incompetent which leaves me with the sole conclusion that this was politically motivated.

  • 97.
  • At 01:30 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Abu Zahra wrote:

Hello,

I find this Newsnight programme utter falsehood and compare it to gutter journalism
of the tabloids. It seems the British establishment and those powerful brokers behind the media machine of this country are
tirelessly trying to malign any Islamic movement who points out their hyprocrisy and lies. We repeatdly see the political capital that members of the Tory party and Labour are
using Terrorism & Extremism to position themselves in front of the electorate, as they know this is one of the burning issue for the next election. Many movements like HT have been working with the Muslim community for the past 10 years. It seems in the current political climate of the UK any politcally orientated organization which is Muslim and shows the real agenda of Bush and his cronies( Blair and co) in the War and Terror are automatically labelled Radicals with a message of hate and poison. But unfortunately we don't see the other side. The exclusive demonisation of Islam and muslims by the British establishment. The consistent maligning and slandering of the Islamic rituals and beliefs under the guise of free speech. Why is their such a critique of Islam, one asks? Why not Hinduism, Judaism, Christanity? I do observe that there is a lot of reservation and ignorance amongst the populace about Islam and Muslims. Unfortunately when Islamic movements try to
explain themselves, the establishment hits out with the propaganda of extremism and terrorism.

  • 98.
  • At 01:31 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Nicholas wrote:

As I see it we have the Government in denial about the fact its foreign policy has inflamed public opinion, particularly amongst Muslims, and the Muslim community in denial that some of its members see the murder of British civilians as a legitimate response. Perpetuating myths and lies doesn't make for an easy resolution. What's needed is honesty on both sides. The Governments refusal to accept the effect of its foreign policy is mind-boggling as was the HT representative's denial of the behaviour of its members.

  • 99.
  • At 01:32 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • noora wrote:

As Awhite middle class english muslim I would like to refute your allegations against The Hizb Ut tahir . The organisation does not promote violence of any time. I beleive you are delibrately toing the Government Line and promoting Intolerance against muslims in the uk . Turn of the hatred and report the truth

To Iain Houston;

Spot on - I totally agree. For a national broadcaster to be screening "reports" largely based on information from such a shadowy body, is shoddy journalism at best. On that basis they could write a report containing attacks on almost any body or group in the world - after all, the internet always has someone on it who will attack you in words.

  • 101.
  • At 01:40 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • ali hussian wrote:

Let me begin with stating that being a secular Muslim i disagree with everything Hizb ut Tehrir stands for.

But the Newsnight piece of investigation is nothing more than vilificfation of the organisation and its in the same vain as rest of the murdoch media demonising muslims on either one or the other pretext.

i know many members of HT and i have found them to be very educated, polite and non violent. these are the sort of people who beleive in the power of dialogue and debate. to codemn them in such a way, when there is nothing toi back up the allegations, will further enhnace teh belief of people that BBC is fast going down the drain and turning to popular tabloid style of jouranlism.

I mean what about an investigation into the racist attacks on Muslims? what about an investigation into unemployment of muslims and job cuts across the sectors and how its creating resentmnet amongst teh working class?

  • 102.
  • At 01:51 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Abu Laila wrote:

I always relied on Newsnight to conduct real investigative journalism to expose the objective truth amidst the various different political agenda's, however, I was bitterly disappointed. We keep hearing about the need for intellectual debate between the political and Islamic representatives, which is where I would have seen Newsnight being a key facilitator of this discussion. I would suggest Newsnight publish a retraction and try and set a level playing field for open and honest discussion.

I thought Hizb-ut-tahrir, as represented by its spokespersons and those above who have defended it, came out of this exchange rather better than Newsnight, a programme I usually find to be of the highest standard.

Sorry about that, but true.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed

  • 104.
  • At 01:56 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • mr k wallace wrote:

i have taken note of the comments posted regarding newsnights look into one of many islamic groups that are active in UK. many are upset that the report is unfair and to quote many of your commenets posted "i know many people who are dentist,doctors who are good honest individuals.i can say the same of another group,a small political party who are full of decent honest non violent christians and included are doctors and dentist,yes they are BNP supporters and members.The BBC is going through a paradigm shift in its view of multi cultural/faith issues.once the BBC was a mouth piece for all that is good about multicultural Britain and stifle any desent on the subject.But viewers have witnessed recently with some BBC journalism that some cracks are appearing with certain ethnic
and religious groups and are reporting the pitfalls,even if the reports are done in a slapdash manner i dont care. i applaude the BBC for taking on an islamic group that are encourage to lie to the unbelivers as is written in the koran .There in lies the rub, as when a muslim is asked a difficult or searching question they lie with ease,practiced over years.some of us who are informed enough spot this and are fully aware of the muslim agenda..

  • 105.
  • At 02:08 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Kashif wrote:

The report and Mr.Paxman's interview was a joke. I have been to A few HT meetings and NEVER once heard them talk about violence. They talk about bringing political changes in Muslims countries, setting up a united Islamic state. This scares the WEST hence the pressure on people like Karimov to boil their members alive. If Mr. Paxman wants to bring somebody onto his show he should atleast him speak!!! I didn't join HT, despite the fact that many doctors like me are members, because of time commitments however I think I may have to find some time for them now.

  • 106.
  • At 02:11 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Rafeeq wrote:

Why is it that anytime the BBC mentions HT in a program this comes after some other individual or group that holds completely different views. Then the program goes on to HT and thus the impression is that HT is responsible for all that is mentioned in the program? That is a general observation, but regarding last nights program that was a complete farce. Anyone who knows even the slightest bit about HT will know that sending youngsters out to mug people is totally against what HT stands for. Responsible journalism involves the verifying of sources and not just taking the word of someone without any credible evedence.

  • 107.
  • At 02:22 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Mohammed Arif wrote:

Newsnight’s report on the causes of extremism in the UK Tuesday 14 November 2006 at 10.30pm was one sided and employed highly questionable investigative techniques. Is this what objective investigative journalism is about?
i. hearsay,
ii. questionable secondary and tertiary sources of information,
iii. clandestine reporting using a private company (Vigil) which has a right-wing political agenda, and not informing the viewers about this
iv. critical statements from one side only: the incumbent Croydon mosque committee with previously held grievances (without clearly notifying the viewer about this)
v. no actual statements from independent community sources in Croydon
vi. no actual statements from the Muslim general public in Croydon about the impact of Hizb-ut Tharir activities
vii. no first hand evidence supporting allegations against Hizb-ut Tharir either written or oral from the organisation itself – not even covert recording of speeches, talks etc.
viii. no reporting of wider community activities of members of Hizb-ut Tharir helping the unemployed in Croydon: with computer classes; English language teaching and job applications all of which are known to the community and were advertised widely
ix. no reporting of Hiz-ut Tharir activities in South London aiming to open a dialogue with non-Muslims in order to better community relations – again advertised widely, most telling on the day shown in the film

I would very much appreciate your response to each of the points raised above. Such journalism using widely discredited investigative techniques further undermines the trust of the public in the media and in journalists as individuals. Moreover, it is highly irresponsible as it is financed by tax payer’s monies.

  • 108.
  • At 02:23 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Joe wrote:

F.A.O; Rosemund (or anyone else who may know) What is any extremist?

  • 109.
  • At 02:24 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Londoner wrote:

To mr k wallace - muslims are not told to lie in the Quran, in fact to tell a lie is a major sin in Islam.

Your tactic is a common BNP tactic to make stuff up about the Quran knowing that your intended audience will take the easy option of not confirming your statement. I can only hope that your comment has the unintended effect of motivating people to read the Quran.

  • 110.
  • At 02:25 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Joe Public wrote:

Paxo was really motoring last night on the BBC's Zionist agenda of vilifying the Muslims.The problem is that that everyone can see through all this lying falsehood and it is about time the lying scumbags at the Beeb got back to reality.

  • 111.
  • At 02:25 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Mr Hasan wrote:

It is well established that Hizb ut-Tahrir is a non violent political party that engages with people of all faiths and opinions. The program gave the false impression that they are a bunch of thugs. This is disgracefull and does not do any good to the reputation of the BBC.

  • 112.
  • At 02:40 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • A Colton wrote:

I want to agree with a message posted by John Smith previously - Dublin Airport had never been used to transport troops to Iraq and this 'other undercover reporter' who mentioned Dublin to Omar Bakri should have got his facts straight before he made such a dangerous, incorrect and inflammatory comment. I live in Dublin and where until now there has not been terrorist threat to my city as a result of the events in Iraq, now I feel under threat because of this downright irresponsible, gutter journalism. I am very disappointed with the BBC for not correcting this error during the programme.

  • 113.
  • At 03:06 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Mohammad Abdul Basir wrote:

The Newsnight programme was absolutely rubbish, anybody with half a brain knows that even if you provoke members of Hizb ut-Tahrir, they just turn around and walk away. As for the source 'j' when is he going to be reported to the police, he confessed to being a criminal, as a citizen of this country am doing my civic duty, by reporting him to the police.

As for Mr Ian's point (91), in a debate sir, you let the one being interviewed answer the question; you let him talk that’s just common courtesy. Secondly when you say 'no organisation that aims to replace democracy with theocracy..' HT actually wants to remove dictators of the Muslim world, not democracies in the Muslim world unless you think Uzbekistan or Egypt is a democracy (LOL). You should get your facts straight like Newsnight before you go ranting on about peoples or organisations.

Lastly, Hizb ut-Tahrir, please keep up the good work and keep exposing the foreign policy of this country.

THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY WILL SUPPORT YOU ALL THE WAY.

  • 114.
  • At 03:07 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Alan wrote:

@104 Mr K Wallace,

I agree with your point.

I have no idea if Hizb ut-Tahrir is as it was portrayed in last night’s program but I have issues with any organisation whose goals include “…to cultivate a Muslim community that lives by Islam in thought and deed, adhering to the rules of Islam and preserving a strong Islamic identity.” This is profoundly divisive and will lead to the Balkanisation of Britain. Many Islamic rules are not compatible with a western liberal democratic system so, even if HT aren’t intent on implementing Sharia law in Britain (this is not clear to me), it appears that they are at least intent on dividing Britain.

I have also noticed a gradual shift in the BBC’s attitude to these groups and I suspect that the BBC is on a very steep learning curve, having been completely in thrall to multicultural ideology and almost wholly focused on the demonisation of Israel. Paxman has been bewildered by some of his Islamist guests in the past and I think the penny is beginning to drop for him. If he has slandered HT then it is their democratic right to sue for defamation. This should clarify the issues raised in the program. I look forward to this.

  • 115.
  • At 03:23 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Asir wrote:

It is well known within the Muslim community that HT are a political party. It is also well known the members do not advocate or partake in violence. The insight shown by newsnight is truly false and can be verified by the ordinary Muslim in any city throughout the UK.

The documentary was composed in a illogical manner - started on terror - then radical speeches and then HT. Why is BBC so desperate to make a link? its no surprise HT are starting legal proceedings.

  • 116.
  • At 03:26 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • vikingar wrote:

Having read through the 100+ posts to date, a grand example of the 3 wise monkeys defence of 'Hizb ut-Tahrir' by most [1]

I'll acknowledge that this extremist Sunni Sect's followers certainly answer the organisations orchestrated clarion call [2]

Still ……

"“He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave” - Sir William Drummond [3]

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1] http://threes.com/cms/images/stories/mythology/3%20wise%20monkeys.jpg
[2] http://www.hizb.org.uk/hizb/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=489&Itemid=109
[3] http://thinkexist.com/quotation/he_that_will_not_reason_is_a_bigot-he_that_cannot/161674.html

  • 117.
  • At 03:43 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Abdul wrote:

Well done Newsnight for your presentation last night as not only did it sound so bad but it had to have paxman doing the soldiers Job.

I think HT are the next best thing to the Islamic State as they are very articulate and professional.

They have held so many events in UK and none of them have been viloent.

Shame on BBC

Alan (113)

“…to cultivate a Muslim community that lives by Islam in thought and deed, adhering to the rules of Islam and preserving a strong Islamic identity.”

Substitute "Christian" or "Jewish" or "Buddhist" and tell me it's unacceptable.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed

  • 119.
  • At 03:57 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Khay wrote:

Disgusted.........


Expected better from BBC. Acting as a mouth piece for the Government propaganda. BBC you have lost all credibility with the Muslims.

  • 120.
  • At 04:01 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Robin Wilson wrote:

Why just go for Rumsfeld?

The executive decisions to go to war were taken by Bush and Blair. In the process, they have unleashed anything up to 600,000 Iraqi casualties and they should therefore be compelled to face justice for this appalling human carnage. They were warned beforehand as to the consequences of removing the lid that was Saddam, but they went ahead regardless, and so they, not Saddam, are the weapons of mass destruction in the eyes of the Muslim world. Talk about pouring fuel onto the flames! What was wrong with the policy of containment? Surely if it saved a few hundred thousand lives it would have been good to continue with it, notwithstanding the cruelty of Saddam's regime? In any case, at one time, the West was pro-Saddam and helped to arm his regime. Remember the whitewash that was the Scott Inquiry into arms to Iraq? At the time, this was all good business as it kept Britons in jobs at defence firms. Western foreign policy is riddled with hypocrisy and severely tarnished by a perception that foreign blood is very cheap indeed. It should come as no surprise that the Muslim world is taking up arms against the West.

The neo-conservatives in America are no better than a criminal gang, and Blair has colluded with them. Therefore, Bush, Blair, Cheney and Rumsfeld should be brought before an international criminal court at The Hague to face charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity. Justice should be for everyone, not just the victors.

  • 121.
  • At 04:13 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Farooq wrote:

The Newsnight piece did not present one piece of evidence that Hizb ut-Tahrir is involved in criminality, and yet it still broadcast these outrageous claims. Newsnight neither gave a balanced view of the organisation. It did not speak of the party's work to build community cohesion or how it is working to take youth away from crime and drugs. It is an absolutely outrageous piece of journalism worthy of a place in Goebbel's ministry of propaganda. I expect the BBC to either provide their evidence or publicly apologise and pay damages for defamation.

  • 122.
  • At 04:14 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • shahid ditta wrote:

Dear Sir/Madam

In light of the latest Newsnight programme on the 14th Nov 06 aired on BBC2, I find myself pondering on whether the so called BBC’s neutrality of forecasting an objective analysis is under threat. Having witnessed over the last few months what seems to be an establishment driven agenda to use the media as a tool towards demonising law abiding and productive members of the Muslim community.

I was completely shocked to see the level of journalism portrayed in the documentary, in levelling accusations on a non violent Islamic political party Hizb-ut-tahrir. It was clearly obvious that Mr Paxman didn’t pay much attention to the documentary, to the effect when posing a question to Dr Wahid, he was portraying something which clearly did not happen and he assumed that any one stood next to another person is now according to Mr Paxmans logic, an associate/member.

Hizb-ut-tahrir is clearly perceived as a threat by the establishment and the government which it props up, so why don’t they confront HT in an open debate and clear any misconceptions or are they just hell bent on eradicating any alternative political thinking?, if so, then isn’t this blatant hypocrisy and complete intolerance towards any other ideology which wants to govern in lands in the Muslim world and not the UK?

What is obvious to many people around the world is that ‘WHAT ONCE WAS, IS NOW NO LONGER’ I am referring to the British so called empire, which in some quarters are still burning the torch. These of which have become a bunch of limp wrested intolerant individuals who hide behind a façade, which have taken the role of poodles subservient to their new masters and are grateful for the scraps it’s thrown toward them.

The fact of the matter is that the western ideology has failed like did the communist entity, these people who are the real puppet masters, need to realise that the concepts of tolerance, co-existence and harmony is not a figment of someone’s imagination but a true tangible reality which was in the midst of Europe centuries ago.

What I am referring to is the Great Islamic Caliphate in which Christians, Jews, Muslims and other religions lived side by side in a tolerant society under the umbrella of the Islamic shariah law. Today we see a contrast of politicians of today and yester years of the true Islamic era.

We have the likes of Mr Cameron in today’s Queens Speech debate, trying to score political points, in jumping on the intolerance band wagon, once again showing the true sentiments towards anybody representing alternative values in British society, which by the way have never tried to force on any other person. The question arising from all this, is their any true difference between the fascists BNP and the parties fighting for 10 Downing street or does it just boil down to styles.


Yours truly,

Concerned Member of British Society

  • 123.
  • At 04:22 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Quds wrote:

I believe your documentary on Hizb-ut-Tahrir was baseless and complete nonsence. Where is the real evidence that indicates HT is involved in crime or terrorism? You can't even prosecute the group with the information you have. If it isn't good enough for the courts, it cannot be good enough to show on TV.

BBC show some professional reporting!

  • 124.
  • At 04:30 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Ash wrote:

I'm speechless! the report was so baseless and infactual, just a load of chinese whispers!! I hear that HT will be taking the BBC to court over the accusations made in the report.

The result of the case should put things straight as it would have allowed a court of law to scrutinise whatever evidence is at hand.

Problem for the BBC is that most people here, both muslim and non muslim seem to be of the opinion that the BBC doesn't have a leg to stand on, and for them to withdraw the allegations before a court date would only be an admission of guilt.

I used to have alot of respect for Jerremy Paxman before, however the way he tried to bully and harrass the representative of HT just showed me that he wasn't interested in finding out the truth of the allegations but rather he wanted to enforce the claims made in the report and tried to cut off the Dr whenever he tried to refute them.

Honest, truthful and FACTUAL journalism is dead, there is a wider agenda at play and it seems to be coming from downing street.

  • 125.
  • At 05:07 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Ben Y wrote:

Bravo, the timing of this piece of slander couldn't have been executed better. How appropriate that the Queen's speech today outlined and pre-dominantly focused on home security and terrorism issues, with the governent trying to pass several unpopular ammendments. With the government failing to ban HT the first time around and for good reason, they have done nothing to break the law in this so called democratic society where free speech is king. So this time around lets scoop down to outright lies and baseless accusations to make sure that second time around they don't get so lucky, scaremongering tactics are only resorted to when intellectually you become bankrupt. What next Big brother? Raids? Arrests?

To anyone that knows or has encountered HT, (we are not talking about fabricated websites, so called associates or people that have been to a few HT talks) but people that have met there representatives in person, as the best way to learn about anyone is to hear it from the horses mouth will testify that they are genuine, have a point to make and offer a fresh perspective on whats happening in the UK and abroad for those that are willing to lend an ear and discuss. Something I found quite hilarious was the fact that the leaflet being distributed outside the mosque on the programme was for a event to bring about an understanding and community cohesion with muslim and non musims, creating healthy dialogue and debate amongst the local community.

Has no one else noticed the exponential rise in news and media coverage against Islam and Muslims in the past few months and wondered why so much negativity towards pre-dominantly one community? The Veil, islamic family values, suspect bomb plots, faith schools, false arrests, foreign policy etc. The muslim community is under constant scrutiny.

I mean look at todays newspapers, The Daily Mail, Evening Standard to name a few running front page stories concerning a certain muslim that works for the home office that you demonised on public TV for working with HT. Do you not have any semblance of guilt knowing that you have destroyed this mans and his families future for being in a legitimate organisation that exercises views that are different to your own.

Remember biased programmes like this do not just demonise so called 'Extremist' organisations but the whole muslim community and is designed to do so through 'shock and awe' tactics, there is no debate, if you don't like it or have a rational arguement to make getting a stage is becoming nigh on impossible. Get in line or be straightened seems to be the governments stance. Whatever happened to Britain being the bastion of free speech and debate?

Oh yes! One more point the important word in yesterdays gossip was 'TO BE'HT is not actually banned or on any proscribed list to be banned, so all this nonsense over a supposed extremist fringe outfit? Don't you think the British public have more pressing issues to worry about???

PS. HT are not working to establish an Islamic state in the UK, you are purposely trying to link them to another group that is banned in the UK. Please get your facts straight.

  • 126.
  • At 05:35 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • no smoking gun wrote:

Unconfirmed shady silhouetted sources have alleged that members of the Newsnight team were behind a series of unprovoked attacks against innocent civilians buying coffee at Starbucks.

Our most credible sources have reliably confirmed to us that Newsnight journalist having gone deep under cover acquired employment as baristas and proceeded to add vanilla shots to all espressos thereby causing instant sugar poisoning upon consumption.

Would you care to respond Mr Paxman?

How can you possible deny it? We've got credible sources!

OK. Not as funny as I thought it would be when I started it writing it, but the thought of those vanilla shots is still scary.

Shame on you BBC.

I’m definitely not renewing my licence this year.

  • 127.
  • At 05:45 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Edward Sayed wrote:

What a load of rubbish. I can't believe I have to pay for these lazy idiots to produce such half-baked nonsensical reports.

If ever there was a case for abolishing the licence fee and forcing the BBC scroungers to do some real work (aka research) before they open their mouths this is it.

As for HT. You must be full of plonkers to not be able to counter this blatant hatchet job. What was with that beardy guy who couldn't seem to string a sentence together?

  • 128.
  • At 05:46 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Ali wrote:

It should also be pointed out that the allegations were essentially statements made by a few individuals (which were not substantiated). This must be taken and compared with written statements from hundreds of individuals and organisations which would disprove these allegations. Also Hizb-ut-Tahrir literature and talks have the recurring theme of illustrating the futility of gang culture and crime in general and how Islam opposes this and attempts to rectify individual character to become excellent citizens.

Also to suggest that Hizb-ut-Tahrir incites violence is false.

"Hizb ut-Tahrir [HT] is an independent political party that is active in many countries across the world. HT's activities centre on intellectual reasoning, logic arguments and political lobbying. The party adheres to the Islamic Shariah law in all aspects of its work. It considers violence or armed struggle against the regime, as a method to re-establish the Islamic State, a violation of the Islamic Shariah." [Restricted Home Office Documents 19/8/03, Released to Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain 1/6/05 under FOI Act]
Only the other day I listened to an Hizb-ut-Tahrir video where the speaker (who incidently was sharing a platform with Craig Murray ex-Brit ambassador to Uzbekistan) urged the young people not to turn to violence in attempting to resolve Muslim community grievances.

Lastly the suggestion that Hizb-ut-Tahrir teaches people that non-Muslims are worthless would seem very odd considering their website encourages Muslims to interact with wider society, to be ambassadors of Islam, to maintain good relations with neighbours. It should also be noted that Doctors from Hizb-ut-Tahrir were amongst those to treat the victims of 7/7. Add to this the countless videos that show discussions and shared platforms with non-Muslim community leaders, intellectuals and politicians.

  • 129.
  • At 05:50 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • N.Chowdhury wrote:

I use to have alot of respect for newsnight reporting, but watching last nights programme i was shocked at the level of false representation you were able to make about the HT organisation. I am a responsible member of the community, professional, and have met and interacted with people from HT in my community. They would condemn all types of criminal behaviour, and disruption to community. The shadowy figures are a farce, making baseless allegations against HT is just jumping on the government bandwagon of demonising Muslims with different views.

Newsnight should be ashamd, oppologise to the thousands of supporters and members of the organisation for its slanderous representation, or HT should definantly take legal action.

  • 130.
  • At 06:05 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Zamir wrote:

I agree with many of the sentiments already expressed about the awful example of journalism presented to us last night. The allegations against Hizb Tahrir were so far off the mark that the only conclusion that can be drawn is that this was either a deliberate attempt by the producers to fuel the anti muslim feeling or that the producers were duped into believing that they were dealing with HT when in fact it was someone masscarading as HT for the purpose of malighning the group. The producers then simply sought out specific people to get negative views on HT to build a perception they wanted to portray in the film.

I find it hard to believe that the producers were not able to find a single person ( and there are many thousands ) who would say to them on camera that there is absolutley no way that these allegations were true.

This definatley stinks of having an agenda behind which has already been elaborated upon in other posts.

  • 131.
  • At 06:06 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Asid wrote:

I have just made a formal complaint about the BBC newsnight programme aired last night in which a series of allegation where shown regarding the non violent political organisation called 'Hizb ut tahrir'. I live in Hyndburn (North West) and am a regular viewer of your programme. I am deeply dissapointed at the way you falsely portrayed an organisation that has done so much in the communities, with regards to cohesion, that i live in. I have personally witnessed this organisation transform thugs and drug dealers into civilised law abiding citizens. This organisation tackled to some extent the drugs problem in my community. I also feel that I have now lost trust in the programme as a result of last nights viewing, as i previously believed that the programme was the only one the showed a balanced and non biast view based on fact. I do not think BBC newsnight have done any justice by taking this stance on a minority faith like Islam. My advice in future would be that you check out the facts about such organisations as that programme was extremely distant from the facts. The community in Hyndburn whom I represent have totally misunderstood why the BBC have portrayed such a programme like this, in order to further demonise people who are really trying to make a difference. The BBC should make some sort of retraction to what they have allegated as this would be helpful to their aim.
Asid Mahmood (Chair of Hyndburn United Muslims)

  • 132.
  • At 06:20 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • dxx wrote:

I believe that 99% of the people who complained on here were Hizb Ut-Tahrir members and not representative of the wider Muslim community. The group are urging their members to complain and providing a link to this blog from their website.
They are deliberately trying to confuse the issue. The report was clearly NOT attacking all Muslims, but attacking an allegedly extremist group, Hizb Ut-Tahrir.
I have several Muslim friends who are appalled by the group.
I hope they are investigated thoroughly by the police because they seem very dangerous from what I have heard.

  • 133.
  • At 06:21 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Farhan wrote:

Best comedy documentary I have ever seen.

Where did the BBC get such a great idea for a spoof report on one of the only Islamic organisations that young disgruntled Muslims can vent their anger to the murderous foreign policy of Tony Blair in a non violent, political way.

The spoof documentary was especially entertaining as it ties in with the current political reality of Tony Blair's war on Islam. The idea that the BBC has become a mouth piece for the government was a little 'James Bond' Hollywood for me though, probably influenced by the new Bond film release.

I especially enjoyed the character young 'J' that cowardly criminal was hilarious. His story tells of how he was so easily manipulated to rob someone by HT after swearing on the holy Quran which teaches Muslims not to steal. 'J' played his part so well, almost makes you believe he could be talked in to doing or saying anything - doesn't it.

The Vigil organisation was a great part of the script although a little far fetched, to think that a group of Islam loving, community building group of indivuals with no conection to the far right would have time to invetigate HT in an unbiased manner.

My review would not be complete without mentioning the star of the report 'Jeremy Paxman'
He was fantastic as the interviewer who loves the sound of his own voice so much that he didn't even let the HT representative get a word in, great acting Jeremy.

  • 134.
  • At 06:57 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • joshim wrote:

your report on ht was a disgrace and utter nonsense. it is well known that ht is against violence in all forms. shame on you newsnight and jeremy for the way you conducted that interview ith dr wahid of ht.

  • 135.
  • At 07:03 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Anon wrote:

I used to think Jeremy Paxman had the intellect to debate. Unfortunately, he has resorted to not letting his opponents get a word in edgeways. Great debating Paxman! Bravo Dufus. You just made a big fool of yourself. As for the piece on HT, which nursery did the BBC hire the producer from? The BBC and Newsnight has really just stooped to a new low. I mean, come on, you guys are supposed to have at least an ounce of intelligence. Use it!


  • 136.
  • At 07:29 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Zahid wrote:

Hizb Ut Tahrir is a worldwide organisation which started in 1952. In all the brutal suppressions it has encountered by the most oppressive regimes on earth (mostly backed by certain western governments), it has not once advocated violence. Its method for political change has always been to use rational dialogue. All the worldwide studies on Hizb ut Tahrir (including the Clinton's Whitehouse), there is no shred of evidence and hence no proposal that Hizb ut Tahrir uses violence.

What puzzles me is that I am sure you are aware of all of this yet you propagate such untruths.

Do you think by being Blairs Broadcasting Company you can secure your Licence fee for longer. No matter what you do, how many government lies you tow it will not be enough for New Labour. Hence while you have the chance stick to the truth.

Zahid

  • 137.
  • At 07:44 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Ahmed wrote:

I think the piece screened yesterday about Hisb ut Tahrir has discredited the Newsnight team seriously.

Such far fetched and inaccurate footage is a disgrace for the BBC. I have met Hisb ut Tahrir members and to portray them in this light is absurd and ridiculous.

It has amazed me that the BBC has used such poor evidence to accuse them. I really thought it was a joke and could not believe that the BBC actually screened it!

In the future I will watch newsnight with great caution, especially after yesterdays coverage.

  • 138.
  • At 08:06 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Mr A. Mahmood wrote:

I don't believe my money was used to pay for such shoddy journalism regarding your piece on Hizb ut-tahrir.

Accusations like "HT made me rob someone as initiation" is, as Dr Wahid mentioned "so far off the radar", i dont know if I should laugh or cry.

And the only way to substantiate these ubsurd statemants, was the testimony of some unknown person.

How much did newnight pay him. For future reports can I be used as an undercover individual, i'll say whatever you ask me to.

"I killed President Kennedy, it was part of my initiation to join Hizb ut-tahrir"

  • 139.
  • At 08:07 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Quds wrote:

I was speaking to my friend, who knows very little about HT and he did not believe the Newsnight report to be true.

If he disagrees then you can imagine what all the other outsiders think of the report, including non-muslims as here.

Come BBC, you know HT is full of professional people. It does not make sense for these people to act like kids in a playground where they have to steal or hurt someone before they can join the gang.

If you really wanted to damage the rep of this group, you could of at least made the report more releastic. But even then you would most likely to fail, cos they are a law abiding group.

  • 140.
  • At 08:20 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Alan wrote:

@118 Ed Iglehart

Sorry Ed, nice rhetoric shame about the substance. I don’t know that any of the religions you mention have RULES that, for example, impose DEATH for apostasy, or impose DEATH for blasphemy, or impose DEATH for adultery, and then actually IMPLEMENT these penalties in the 21st century. Ask Salman Rushdie or Ayan Hirsi Ali or Theo van Gogh, or Irhshad Manji about the impact of these RULES one their lives. There are rules and then there are Islamic RULES and you’d better understand the difference.

Peace to you friend

Alan

  • 141.
  • At 09:15 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • muhammed wrote:

I just watched how Dr Waheed ( member of Hizb), was so clearly and justifiably shocked to see how his well respected, non-violent organisation was being setup and framed by the newsnight report for demonisation. A familiar story ?

I myself have never in my life seen such extreme outrageous behaviour by the BBC. It was beyond belief. Gutter press tactics by the world renowned BBC ? Disgusting How can Paxman and that "reporter" sleep at night ?

A clumsy cut & paste editing job, with Rent-a-Yob is the "evidence" of HT and "extremism"

  • 142.
  • At 09:27 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Su wrote:

why is assumed that anyone posting a complaint doesnt have an ounce of intelligence to forward a point of view unless they are a member of this organisation HT tryin to outblog everyone elses comments? dont be so small minded. how utterly disappointing newsnight!!

This was gutter journalism if ever i saw it. i thought i was watching a bad film when 'j' was telling his story because of the sheer obvious stupidity of what he was claiming. go and mug someone but swear on the muslim holy book first ?! right?! huh?and by the way 'j' who do u think acted as US soldiers in the fake scenes of guantanamo bay by the way? ht aswell? these boys r clever!!
it really does betray the BBC's lack of confidence of their audience to have a brain cell between us by airing this nonsense.

  • 143.
  • At 09:31 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Ali wrote:

How lower are the BBC going to get to make lies about HT? Do they think that any reasonable person out there who knows about HT will believe that pantomime they broadcast lastnight? As for Paxman, I think you've lost your cred. But then again, many 'respectable' broadcasters/writers have chosen to tow the government line to demonise the Muslim Community and soft targets.

  • 144.
  • At 09:34 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • AM wrote:

The way that the Newsnight programme covered the story about Hizb-ut-Tharir, the political organisation does not surprise me at all. Mis-representation and sensationalisation at whatever cost seems to be the main attraction point in drawing in viewers into an already mis-understood discussion and organisation. This will only increase the divide in the community, make Islam a focal point for radical right-wing organisations and I thank the BBC for that.

Do you honestly think that a group on the brink of being banned in this country would want to attract the label of being "involved" in gangs and violence??? I my self have been witness to this gang culture in Croydon Mosque, the fact the members of this organisation can risk their lives amongst 150+ youth to "break-up" a fight makes me believe that the Newsnight programme told lies about this group and its members and that the BBC cannot be trusted to inform its viewers of any news!

  • 145.
  • At 09:35 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • lulu wrote:

Thanx to Newsnight I am going to read more on the group. My only comfort was how the guest embarrassed Paxman with humility. The newsnight blog is very encouraging too. At least people are alert to this scaremongering. If Hitler had the BBC as a tool, he would have won the propaganda war. The BBC are party to this active attempt to create division and ultimately sanitize the coming Kristalnacht. I am going to throw away my television and watch aljazeera news online instead.

As Shakespeare might have remarked (after scrolling through over 100 comments on your programme)
"Methinks HT doth protest too much." Due, no doubt, to the HT website calling for an orchestrated response.
We might also remember that another great Englishmen, Winston Churchill seemed to be the only person concerned at the Gathering Storm some 70 years ago. Our reputation for tolerance is too dearly earned: thank goodness (certainly not God!) that the British lion will only stand so much abuse before lashing out. I do believe us true-Brits are finally becoming radicalised.

  • 147.
  • At 09:40 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • john ord wrote:

As a Muslim and former member of Hizb ut tahrir I was astonished at the accusation levelled at HT. It is because of HT I became a Muslim, they were the only group at the time of my conversion, that were able to not only convince me that Islam was the right path, and who were able to debate the realities of life through intellectual debate. I have never in all my time with them heard them advocate violence or breaking the law. The see the way of wining there hearts and mind struggle against Islam, through Muslims living there lives in there entirety via Islam. From my time with them and I have met many members both in public and in private what they say in public is what they say in private. I can understand how people in the west can see them as radicals, there message is radical, that muslims should live there lives via Islam, that they should be good neighbours and productive citizens, that the Muslim world should have the right to elect there leader, that leader should be accountable to the citizens both Muslim and non Muslim, it is not HT that support unelected brutal unaccountable leader in the Muslim world, through violence and force it is western governments, and they have the nerve to call HT a radicalising force, and dangerous.

  • 148.
  • At 09:44 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Alan wrote:

Newsnight: you know you are over the target when you start taking heavy flak.

looks like news nigjt are getting the usual flooding from muslims

newsnight you are aware this is usual practice from muslims

  • 150.
  • At 10:17 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Ian Nisbet wrote:

Frankly I'm appalled at the trashyness of this attempt to slander. Clearly the person "Jay" is lying if he even exists. Either he is lying about the events, or he is lying about the people he was invloved with being HT.

12 years I have been around HT and never have I heard anyone being asked to do crimes to test his loyalty, nor harass any member of the non-muslim public, nor viewing fake propoganda videos, nor heard anyone shout "I will kill them" from the HT crowd, nor met anyone who is "willing to beat you up and sell you drugs and make sure you die."

All of this we hold to be forbidden and would expel any person who did such an act. Indeed for much less than any of this people get expelled.

Even in the "zealous" mid nineties when Omar Bakri was still with HT, never did I hear such talk. The party in this country is much tighter about dissasociating from such ideas nowadays, so how can any of this be true.

The idea of encouraging blanket hatred of all non-Muslims is not from our culture either.

We debate with people who hold some of these ideas all of the time in order to bring them around to our view which is to make them become active politically and not violently. To be aware of the current colonialist plans and to SPEAK out against them. That is all we do.

Years ago people used to accuse HT of all kinds of things, based upon the conduct of whom would be seen attending one of our events or talking to us at a stall in the high-street. Obviously, we speak to people who agree with us, and those who don't. Sometimes individuals, particuarly the youth, carry some of what they have heard to others. This does not make them a member of the party, nor should they been seen to represent it. If there is any truth to "Jay's" experience, then I can only imagine that it is with such "supporters", who have not been fully touched by HT's message, and have just latched onto parts.

I am writing concerning your BBC 4 radio program File on 4 and Newsnight’s program on Countering radical Islam.
I am an anthropologist of Islam, author of Jihad Beyond Islam (Berg Publishers)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jihad-Beyond-Islam-Gabriele-Marranci/dp/1845201582/
and an academic with experience in studying Muslims and issues related to fundamentalism.
I am absolutely horrified to see how the BBC has decided to approach the problem of radicalism in this country. I am also surprised that politicians and policy makers have still not understood that the spreading of extremism among young Muslims is the product of certain forms of disinformation and the creation of panic. International mass media is increasingly challenged by new forms of global information available on the Internet. This forces traditional broadcasters, such as the BBC, to sensationalise, through over-simplification and sexying-up through stereotypes, complex realities such as extremism in this country.
This achieves three unwanted main results: 1) to upset ordinary peaceful-living Muslims and subject them to increased discrimination 2) to incur fear among the public so that irrationality and chimeras affect ordinary people ready to support increasingly anti-liberal legislation, 3) to glorify the extremist, transforming them into heroes and the real voice of the ummah, making them more interesting than what they would have been without, for instance, your sensational program.
I am very sorry that the new BBC is becoming similar to FOX News. As far as the group Vigil and its ‘academics’ are concerned, I suggest that you investigate better to which other movements this group is linked, before presenting it as the Holy Grail of anti-terrorism. Indeed, I am not surprised that our anti-terrorist office has not paid attention to these home-made vigilantes of the web.

Thank you for your attention
Dr Gabriele Marranci
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/divinity/staff/gabriele-marranci.shtml
Blog: http://www.tabsir.net

  • 152.
  • At 10:28 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • david wrote:

Post 148:

Dear Alan,

This is not a bombing campaign!!!!

If I ridicule christianity or say obnoxious stuff about Prophet Muhammed, people will respond to it because they feelthey have been wronged.

Th report by newsnight is defaming and insulting those people who support the ideas of Hizb Ut- tahrir which as I understand:

1. Muslims choosing their own political destiny (caliphate)in the Muslim countries without Western interference.

2. Speaking out against US and UK foreign Policy.

3. To inform non - muslims about Islam here in the Uk through DEBATE AND DIALOGUE.

Anything wrong with the above three points??

Regards

2.

  • 153.
  • At 10:32 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • James Foley wrote:

What utter tripe. If you could have substantiated your arguments, Paxman would have let that Dr chap speak. You must really think the British people are stupid.

  • 154.
  • At 10:58 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • karim wrote:

newsnight has degraded its self to a red top mentality.its report on hizb-ut tahrir,was nothing but slander.We the muslim community know what they are about.We dont all agree or prescribe to the politics.One thing we do know is that they professional in their conduct.This was something like a script from the life of brian.We done newsnight,gerbels would have been proud of you lot.Even hans christian anderson would have been to embaressed with this fairy tale.

  • 155.
  • At 11:00 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Khalid Raza wrote:

I would like to complain about your Newsnight programme because it has made false allegations about Hizb ut-Tahrir. This organisation is a non violent political party who advocates interaction and dialogue with the wider community. Hizb ut-Tahrir has had events with speakers from various backgrounds and creeds such as Peter Hitchens and Edwina Curry. For the programme to say its people are violent and criminals is totally absurd. People resort to making allegations when they lose the intellectual argument. I would advise you to stop broadcasting a biased government backed agenda and have an honest dialogue with Hizb ut-Tahrir.

  • 156.
  • At 11:22 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • sana akhtar wrote:

If you ask me, i'd rather support hizb ut tahrir than the current gov, who support and strenghten the same dictatoral regimes which Ht call to be removed.

As a muslim i hope one day there is change in the muslim world, and HT achieves what it wants.ie a oppresion free islamic state.

I was disgusted to see your totally biased and highly contentious documentary on Hizb-ut-Tahrir group. Your claims against them are totally inaccurate and I look forward to you issuing an official apology soon.

  • 158.
  • At 11:48 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • abida wrote:

The BBC supposedly prides themselves on providing accurate reporting of news. However, last nights report on HT was anything but, and was quite frankly an outrage. HT is well known for their non-violent stance. There has never been any evidence of the group being involved in violent or terrorist activities. and there is still no such evidence. We were expected to accept that the report provided by 'J' was completely credible. 'J' could be 'anyone', and he could effectively say 'anything' he wanted. He didn't show his face, nor give his name. The whole report was very disappointing, and was tantamount to slander. I truly hope that when the report is investigated and found to be a complete untruth, that newsnight offer HT a full, frank, and equally public apology and retraction.

  • 159.
  • At 11:52 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Humayun wrote:

The alleged 'confession' made by an ex-gang seems immature attempt to dramatise invented memories that is worth posting in 'YouTube', not showing in BBC's Newsnight. There's legal procedure of branding anyone 'criminal' and unfortunately BBC's Newsnight, for some unknown reason, took the path of alleging someone on the basis of it's 'celluloid terror-story'.

  • 160.
  • At 11:57 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Abdullah wrote:

To: Incharge BBC NewsNight Prog
Subj: Complaint about the UNTRUE REPORT on Radicalization of Muslim Youth in Britian

Sir,

It was observed that many Lies were attributed to Hizb ut Tahrir ( A Peaceful Islamic Political Party).
the detail of those lies is over here
http://www.hizb.org.uk/hizb/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=488&Itemid=112

HT is a very peaceful organization which wellcomes intellectual discussions.

It is very politely requested to look into the matter and please stop Demonisation & Suppressing Muslim Community in UK.

By Broadcasting Untrue reports which are based upon Lies , you would only increase the persecution of a peaceful muslim community in Britian.

In the wake of 9/11 & then 7/7 ( which were INSIDE JOBS - to read/watch further please " google " Terror Storm , Alex Jones ") Muslims have suffered a lot.

Hope you would kindly take this complaint of mine seriously.

Thanking you in anticipation.

Abdullah

  • 161.
  • At 11:58 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • midlander wrote:

I was totally shocked and angered from the dubious programme broadcasted by Newsnight yesterday night. Again, this is yet another attack on the Muslim community, individuals and groups by the BBC. Hizb-ut-Tahrir is a non-violent political party and hence, the allegations made on them from the programme, that they encourage and vet violence and inapproriate behaviour is totally ludicrous. Muslims in general are being radicalised because of the draconian political manoeuvres made by the government in their foreign policy and not by any individual or group. if Newsnight is to remain as a respectible programme it must refrain from showing such material in the future which has baseless allegations.

  • 162.
  • At 11:58 PM on 15 Nov 2006,
  • Tauseef Zahid wrote:

1. No evidence was presented to back the arguments about organization criminal or violence.
2. No evidence was presented to show organization is extremist
3. the presenter in the video was biased from the start and reporting as if he got the evidence
4. the findings from Bakri chat room was intermingled with Hizb ut-Tahrir
5. BBC failure to report that guy to police who was forcing criminal action
6. Trustee of Croydon Mosque made vague allegations and then taken as the bases of whole programme
7. no evidence was presented to prove Hizb ut-Tahrir makes recruits commit crimes to test their loyalty
8. no evidence was presented to prove Hizb ut-Tahrir teaches young Muslims that non-Muslims are worthless

  • 163.
  • At 12:03 AM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • Javed Khan wrote:

Newsnight's coverage and bias were unbelievable in their coverage of the islamic group last night - I've started looking through other such coverages on youtube and google video and you can see a systemic bias when they interview anyone from this group.

So much for media neutrality!

  • 164.
  • At 12:15 AM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • vikingar wrote:

Ref the plethora of 'Hizb ut Tahrir' posts above:

The result of …...

a) genuine outraged individual posters.

b) prolific handful of small number of individuals posters masquerading as many more.

The consequence of …...

c) individual spontaneity.

d) orchestrated campaign [1]

Given the waning constructs & sameo nature of the posts, a + d = fix *

* future lesson - remember you are in the real world, posting to a discerning audience, its not the message board of a radical site with same user mindsets.

If 'Hizb ut-Tahrir' are so great, so respectable why have they been so banned [2]

'Hizb ut Tahrir' - words of peace? [3]

Dishonest protest reveals Dishonest Organisation

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1] http://www.hizb.org.uk/hizb/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=489&Itemid=109
[2] http://www.worldpress.org/Europe/2146.cfm
[3] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXGPqyK3Srg&search=Hizb%20Ut-Tahrir%20Islam

  • 165.
  • At 12:23 AM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • Stranded in Babylon wrote:

Well, I liked the programme! I didn't think Richard Waton was sensationalising in his report — actually, I think he was quite measured. For example, during the scuffle outside the mosque, he remained very low-key, and his comment about it did not seek to exaggerate: "This little exchange illustrates the problem for Hizb ut Tahrir: while some supporters adopt a non-confrontational approach, others seem out of control, and some of these elements have been seen fighting outside the mosque."

"Elements", note: he wasn't accusing all of Hizb ut Tahrir. And I also note he makes a similar comment at the end of his "File on 4" report.

Although Hizb ut Tahrir makes statements about pursuing its aims non-violently, the kind of language it uses seems to me unlikely to achieve that.

For example, the person outside the mosque at the time of the scuffle — the chap who had the literature, not the fellows with him — could be heard saying "When Islam is under attack, what should we, the Muslims say? How to defend Islam and the true way."

The message, then: "Islam is under attack".

And the literature itself, which, during the interview later was confirmed as genuine Hizb ut Tahrir material: "Unveiling Bush & Blair's War on Islam".

Bush and Blair don't have any war on Islam, and never have.

Then, the literature went on (we could read the entire first paragraph): "Since the July 7 bombings, the Muslim community has been the subject of intense media scrutiny driven by a government campaign to blame her for the terror threat to Britain: Community, mosques, local imams, Muslim parents, University students, islamic faith schools and Muslim groups have all been accused of breeding extremists. It would appear there is no part of the Muslim community which isn't under suspicion!"

So, "Islam under attack" (spoken) "War on Islam" and "government campaign" (written). None of this is Britsh foreign or domestic policy.

So much for opposing British foreign policy! Hizb ut Tahrir could at least have the honesty to represent it accurately rather than stir up opinion based on falsehood.

Finally, according to one comment here, I see when BBC interviewers next ask government ministers if the UK is now at greater risk because of the actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, it seems they now need to add "and because of Newsnight investigations" to the list...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/2006/11/tuesday_14_november_2006.html

  • 166.
  • At 12:41 AM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • farid wrote:

i cannot understand the level to which the bbc has stooped in its quality of journalism.

the claims are ludicris and there was no evidence of the allegations. the bbc has been infiltrated and need to be overtaken by real journalists who tell the truth.

shame on the bbc

After the botched attempt to slander Hizb Ut Tahrir on Newsnight a few days back, the programme came back for a second go with a special 20 minute film, just in time for the Queen’s speech today, in which security and terrorism featured heavily. Newsnight denies the film was politically motivated, so the timing must be a coincidence then.

Plus, it must be a complete coincidence that they used the services of heavily pro-Israeli Glen Jenvey and right-wing Vigil (type their names into Google as see what you find). Why didn't Newsnight go for Nick Griffin? He's just as objective on Islam as the other two.

There is so much wrong with the film that it’s difficult to know where to start. Suffice it to say that it confirms the extreme rubbish that self-professed so-called 'experts' like Richard Watson come up with. So much so, that it was a no-brainer for HT leader Dr Abdul Waheed to contemptuously dismiss the film on the programme, a job which he did remarkably well despite the harassment from Jeremy Paxman. All in all, HT came out of this looking better than ever.

Watson promised us with ‘alarming new evidence’ about the methods used for radicalisation. And the best he could come up with was – shock horror! – a chatroom where people in Lebanon put forward their views on what should be done with raping and murdering American and British occupiers. That is to say, the same sort of views you’ll hear on thousands of other places, including many right-wing websites that don’t hide their anti-Muslim prejudices, and are forever advocating the expulsion of Muslims and the bombardment of their countries. In other words, it’s no great shakes unless you’re someone who has never heard of the Web. But why stop at the Web? If it’s OK for people like Nick Griffin & Co. to get away with saying that they want to shoot Muslims coming out of their mosques, then I’m fine with Bakri to say the same thing about westerners, especially if they’re the scum that go around invading other countries.

After that flop there wasn’t much for the film to go on. So Watson filmed some random allegations (through other people of course, just to make it Halal), and by editing the film to move between different topics (watching videos, gang initiation and violence, alleged threats to Imams), made it appear that all these allegations were related to HT, which they weren’t. In a final act of desperation, Watson provoked a confrontation with an individual outside a mosque where some leaflets were being handed out, with the result that his microphone got pushed. I mean – wow – if that’s all the evidence he can record as evidence of Muslim ‘extremism’ then to call this film a pile of rubbish is giving a bad name to rubbish.

And what's all this business with the old Muslim men wearing a poppy? What self respecting Muslim is going to wear a poppy, and inside a masjid at that? Did Watson put them up to it to make them appear more 'moderate'? This just goes to show what a pile of contrived tosh this whole thing really is. And why some people in the programme allowed themselves to be so cynically manipulated is beyond comprehension. They ought to be ashamed.

  • 168.
  • At 01:08 AM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • Ansaar wrote:

I watched the report on Hizb ut Tahrir with utter amazement and disgust. I have known this group for 14 years, have known many of the members, up and down the country, and what you reported was further from the truth than I could possibly imagine that any serious journalism was capable of producing. Your entire segment amounted to one sided propaganda, and all I can imagine is some lunatic in the home office has forced you to leave your normally high standards of journalism!. Your editor claims that he had sufficient evidence of wrong doing? He cites an Imam Admani, someone who has been a "government" player in its policy on terrorism. Then there is the "unidentified" mole who was planted in Hizb ut Tahrir? Who was he, was he real, no one knows since you chose to mysteriously keep him secret. Though I have met hundreds of members, and attended hundreds of events, I am yet to come across anything that remotely resembles the outrageus comments that were reported by him. And lastly your editor cites "one trustee" at the Croydon mosque. Well Hizb ut Tahrir today have written statements from many of the other trustees, including the chairman, that absolutely discredit every single statement mentioned in your programme. How is it then that your research failed to overlook this? Did you look for only those who would bring you the story you were looking for? To pick one trustee over the other seven including the chairman reeks of malice. To pick one unnamed mole, whilst thousands of Muslims in Britain who have known Hizb ut Tahrir for over two decades and yet are ignored by your researchers points to a poisonous agenda on your part.

I request the bbc and newsnight to apologise unreservedly for a substandard piece of journalism, or should i say political propaganda

  • 169.
  • At 01:13 AM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • Rajah wrote:

Heres what the other Croydon Mosque, including the ex-chairman, had to say about Hizb ut Tahrir. I think this just BLOWS the Newsnight segment to pieces! Shame on you BBC....

A mosque trustee, Aleem Fakira, said, "I know the group [Hizb ut-Tahrir] for over 20 years and I used to sit in the circle in the mosque. I can confirm that over all these years I have not met anyone in the group who was/is promoting gang violence in Croydon. As regard to the disturbance/riot that occurred on the first day of Ramadan, this has got nothing to do with members of Hizb-ut-Tahrir."

After hearing of the allegations, Mr Mahfooz Rajah, ex-Chairman of Croydon Mosque and Islamic Centre, said, "I should like to state my amazement at accusations that people form Hizb ut-Tahrir were involved with gangs, violence or criminality. Although I may not agree with all of their views I can state that the opposite is true, they have never shown any violent character even when provoked by others and have been working for a few years to get our youth out of crime and violence. With regards to gang disturbances people from Hizb ut-Tahrir were central to stopping the two parties from fighting in September and 2 years ago while other responsible people just watched! Any accusation against them is motivated by other reasons and is wholly false, inaccurate and fictitious."

  • 170.
  • At 01:40 AM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • Dr. M. Khan wrote:

I remember a while back there was a spoof documentary series called Brass Eye on Channel 4. At the beginning of that program one would have the impression that it was serious documentary about drugs / social issues etc, but as the program progressed one would realise it was satirical comedy.

While watching that Newsnight report, containing the mysterious silhouetted "Mr. J" who could not even pronounce the name of the group he supposedly was a member of and the secret intelligence organisation "Vigil" whose officer "de-briefed" this secret vigilante agent of theirs, i was reminded of the spoof documentary genre. As it happened this was supposed to be a serious piece of researched journalism from BBC television. Yet it gave an overview of HT which even those within the muslim community who had issues with HT or are with other groups would find laughable.

I can only conclude that one of two issues have occured within the Newsnight editorial team. Either they have an eye on saving money for their upcoming Christmas party by utilizing the most most incompetant, sensationalist, dishonest and presumably bargain bucket journalists they can. Or there has been a targetted push to provide specific disinformation about HT so as to curtail the group, Politial Islam and the associted concepts of Khilafah, Shariah Law, Ummah anticolonialism etc. Unlike the in the spoof documenary genre, it is not fantastical to believe that this government or allied regimes via their secret services/channels could play and will play a part in this.


  • 171.
  • At 04:59 AM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • akthar wrote:

Firstly, I consider the bbc report is not trustworthy. It was sensationalist and not impartial.
[1]
Dr Wahid of HT challenged Paxmen - It would be fair if the bbc provided access to all information to police. So the crimality accusations raised by bbc against ht could be taken up police.
[2]
It is quite common to find Mosques (charitable trusts) in UK who try to restrict the membership from the community in order to maintain the power in hands of the few (sign of corruptioen)- the interview with the croydon mosque representative suggests that he is involved in such corrupt activity and HT are involved in empowering the community by encouraging all to become members (Paxmen, you may have missed that one!)
[3] Has anyone in the Muslim community identified who J is? If he is a criminal then his statements against others should never be put forward without support from more reliable source on the same charge.
(embarrasing low quality journalism from BBC)
[4] The home-office employee who is a member of HT would not have given details about himself to the respectable looking gentleman in the park if he were to consider himself to be shady and a criminal and his employment in home-office was wrong and damaging to the country. I am actually disgusted by the old man in the park.
[5] Being from the muslim community, I can say that the bbc report is untruthful, and this further alienated not just Ht but the whole of the muslim community. This also means a serious damage to the whole of the british society because the society is being conditioned to become racist, ignorant, inaccurate in its understanding, eroding it's values of civil liberties. Persecution of the muslim community will not just hurt muslims, it will also take the whole british society backwards - steps back in civilisation.

Please think about the damage caused.

  • 172.
  • At 09:45 AM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • Reza wrote:

And you want us to beleive that the media in this country is not BIAS?
Paxman had a 4min police interrogation with Dr Wahid, not an interview. and where is the other side of the argument? is this jurnalism? as far as I know HT are still legal, why watson didn't include the official stance of the organisation by interviewing one of its representatives. I have listen to one of them on bbc radio4. He spook very good english and made some very stong point. Shame on Newsnight! I have lost all respect for the program.

  • 173.
  • At 10:07 AM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • A Ali wrote:

This programme did no good for muslim or non-muslim a like.
The public are fed up of the Media
exploting issue's to do with Islam and the Muslim's.
I think a open 'live' debate needs to happen,(with no hidden agenda's attached),
So many issue's can be cleared up and communities will have geater understanding about each other and can live in peace,(instead of fear),
Let see how open and free the media really is,so the challenge is there for the BBC to undertake.

  • 174.
  • At 10:38 AM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • sayeda wrote:

I saw the newsnight programme and I thought it was quite sensational. I have some friends in north of England who are ex memebers of HT and I tell you frankly they were not surprised to see the report. I also know that some of the Sunnis also disagree with HT. Most of the people I know are scared to speak out as it would be seen causing fitna and fasad within the muslims. I was encouraged to see that atleast some of the elders in the community have had the balls to stand up to HT.I also know that there mosque elders up and down the country who have had to eject HT from their premises. This sort of organisation is not doing any favours to us law abiding citizens.Next time Jeremy get more people from the community in your report

  • 175.
  • At 10:48 AM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • Quds wrote:

CONSIDER THIS:

I've had a quick scan thgrough the opinions here and the majority clearly believe the feature on HT was a blatant lie. But a few believe Newsnight was correct in its report. I believe these few people need to reconsider thier views.

These few individuals dislike what they read here and rubbish all as: 'they are all HT supporters'

Thier arguments are baseless and
Did it not occur to them that quite a lot of HT sympathisers on this page are non-muslims.

Also these views are from the muslim community, people that the country wants to engage with.

YES we do want to engage and we are interacting because we support the economy and come on TV to discuss. You need demonising Islam and listen to us and consider our views.

Since we are all saying the report on HT was poor, will the BBC apologise or least not broadcast such non-sense in the future???


  • 176.
  • At 10:56 AM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • Karl Robertson wrote:

I heard a rumour that Rupert Murdoch has bought the BBC smilies/cheesy.gif

Just checking for clarification smilies/wink.gif

Oh and we have insiders on the Newsnight programme that tell us that Gavin Estler and Jeremy Paxman went round stealing sweets of School children. Apparently they were egged on by Kirsty Wark who told them to do it, so they did.

I have credible evidence to prove this. I was round their house the other day, in cells of 3 and they were showing old videos of Hard Talk and getting angry, threatening to go out and rob more sweets.

I would like to hide my identity in the interests of credible reporting.

Thank you.

  • 177.
  • At 11:15 AM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • Alan wrote:

@152 David

Muslims are claiming that the West is engaged in a ‘war on Islam’ (which is false), so I think the ‘flak’ comment was apt. Most Christians don’t pay too much attention if others ridicule Christianity. I think the general feeling is that God can look after himself.

You ask, “Anything wrong with the above three points…”.

Why do you imagine that Muslims would choose a caliphate? A Muslim caliphate would usurp national sovereignty and would only be achieved by bloody insurrection. If it were to be achieved (it wont be), a secularist backlash would have to be contained by the sort of repressive measures the Iranians have suffered since the revolution. Despite the evident failure of policy in Iraq, the Iraqis have voted for democracy (ok, they may never get it, but they WANT it). Despite the Hamas victory in Palestine (largely due to Fatah corruption), most Palestinians want to live in a (non-corrupt) secular democracy. Ataturk overturned the caliphate to drag Turkey into the 20th century. So who wants a caliphate? The intellectual desire for a Caliphate is akin to the intellectual desire for a Communist utopia, and you know where that led.

There is nothing wrong with speaking out as long as that doesn’t include bombing tubes and busses. You have exactly one vote per person on all these issues, just like everyone else (not a block vote for all 1.5 billion Muslims).

Cheers,

Alan

  • 178.
  • At 11:28 AM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • Dr A Salam wrote:

What a complete joke of a programme that was.

I'm sorry to have to say, I had a great deal of respect for Newsnight, until I saw that programme. To insinuate that members of the Muslim community are stealing sweets or money off children is absurd, ridiculous and sensational.

Richard Watson should consider a career with tabloids, not programmes like Newsnight.

I am incredibly disappointed at programmes like this which have made a cheap mockery of Muslims and Muslim groups who aim is to serve the society.

I personally know of members of Hizb ut-Tahrir and they are respectable and honest people.

The lies in the programme will forever haunt Newsnight and Jeremy Paxman.

Kind regards

Dr A Salam

  • 179.
  • At 11:54 AM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • Dhillul Haqq wrote:

The newsnight programme only again confirms that the media has become a tool in the hands of its government. This government wants us to believe that the anger within our society (not just muslim community), is not due its foreign policy, but because of muslim extremists. It seems that anyone and everyone who disagrees the slightest with government policies, is labelled an extremist. It is not "muslim radicals" who are doing the brainwashing here, but rather the government and its colonialist ministers. Let us not forget how we were all brainwashed into believing that Iraq was a serious threat with WMD. Let us not forget how we were brainwashed into believing that the brazilian charles de menezes was a real terrorist and needed to be shot dead. Let us never forget these lies and government spin, which has caused so much devastation and killing of thousands of innocent lives. It is the brainwashing of this government that has sent the sons and daughters of this country into an illegal and unjust war. Dont be fooled for even a moment

  • 180.
  • At 12:12 PM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • Ms Rauf wrote:

I was absolutely disgusted with bbc newsnight approach to and mis representation of Hizb Ut Tahrir but i was not the least suprised because after all the BBC has to take on propaganda work for this government when it is so desperate to create fear in it's public!
I was also very disappointed with Mr Paxman's presentation skills which i am sure were an embarrassment to those claiming media presenters are always UN BIASED AND neutraL?I Sensed Mr Paxman's own personal views coming to light in the way which he was pointing fingure at Dr Whaid and did not allow him to speak. well done to Dr Wahid for being so calm and maintaining RESPECT towards Mr Paxman, may be Mr Paxman and BBC could learn a few things from this so called extremist, hate spreading group as the Dr representing them had more manners and respect. BBC review this programme and present the truth!

  • 181.
  • At 01:11 PM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • Shareef wrote:

Someone once told me that there is something that takes a lifetime to build but an instant to destroy.

"REPUTATION"

Newsnight - in my mind you blew it.

  • 182.
  • At 02:16 PM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • mr wallace wrote:

i have already commented on here but returned to see what has been written by other contributers to newsnights report on HT.clearly s massive response against the BBC report and knowing little about HT myself but learning more since my previous comment.muslims must be aware that their religion and views are under the spot light day by day in a negative way thanks mostly to radical Muslim clerics and Islamic extreamist spouting hatred almost on a daily basis on the media and for all to see with the usual out come,and unfortunately the loudest and the most extreme gets the hot seat on newsnight and other media outlets.(Islam has a serious public relations problem).this in turn radicalises the host population against islam as it is percieved as a threat.we all remember salman rushdie who critisised Islam and the threat of death that ensued and encourage by Iran.i could list so many examples of the manner in which Islam portrays itself which to the western value system seems barbaric.there is validity with injustices that muslims have experienced especially the manner in which israel was founded and the Iraq invasion, well we all know that was always wrong regardless what you thought about saddam.history tell us all multi faith and multicultural societies are fraught with danger,and the BBC are becoming aware that the general consensus on the street from indigenous Britains that the political landscape is changing and that change has been brought to them by a community that does not share the values of its host,hence the BBC is reporting from a standpoint that is a reflection of the majority that Islam is a threat to the western way of life. i know that uncontrolled immigration and the free for all of allowing an outside culture to become intrenched in the cities of this country with the building of places of worship is a recipe for not just civil unrest but the trigger for something much more cataclysmic.may i suggest something really radical, you cherish your beliefs but dont share it with the rest of us,be greatful that you are living in a better more prosperous country and having a better life that your mother country could give you.can i build a church on muslim land? proberbly not.islam has been given to much rope in the west but it apprears to be getting shorter,well what did you expect.Other than that i still think george bush is the son of satan put on this earth to wreak havoc,commit mass murder and steal oil and tony blair is a place man for the corporate and funny handshaking mob who tell him what his agenda is.some common ground has been found between us i think, and as the irish comedian dave allen would say "may your god go with you" but lets just hope islam, like christianity did in the 15th century wakes up and removes itself from the shackles of serious religious indoctrination.I am not holding my breath because thanks to islam i am becoming radicalised myself to support a party who questions multicultural/faith societies.something the BBC appears to be taking albeit ever so slowly

  • 183.
  • At 02:17 PM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • A.J. wrote:

I want to know what on earth were Newsnight thinking before they put this farce on. What started as a look into terrorism which is a very serious subject in our times soon became a twisted attempt to malign Hizb ut Tahrir of petty criminality. The witnesses who bore testimony to these acts themselves admitted to robbing people so should they not be handed over to the police for investigation. This is not the first time that Newsnight has attempted to tarnish the reputation of Hizb ut Tahrir but I did n't think it would lead them to stoop to this kind of sewerage level.

  • 184.
  • At 02:38 PM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • maryam wrote:

Never seen such underhanded jounalism. It was awful.I think the muslims are owed an aplogy for again the media trying to divide the muslim community. You may continue to plan, but the muslims unity can not be broken.

  • 185.
  • At 03:21 PM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • mohammed khan wrote:

i consider newsnight to be a serious programme which normaly investigates the issues in great detail,having said that after the programme about hizb ut tahrir
and radicals,i have lost all the respect that i had for the bbc.This type of coverage is more akin to what you would normaly read in the sun or the sport.

  • 186.
  • At 03:25 PM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • Saqib Bukhari wrote:

I have khown and interacted with Hizb ut Tahrir for many years. I have attended their circles, seminars and demonstrations. In light of this, I am absolutely astounded by the total gutter journalism portrayed by Newsnight and the BBC. There is obviously a very deep political agenda here to blacken the name of HT and i will tell all the corporate guys at the BBC, 'it won't work!'

  • 187.
  • At 03:35 PM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • Jason Smith wrote:

The BBC Lost the Battle of Ideas

I am a student at one of the London Universities and have attended some of the activities of Hizb-Ut-Tahrir and spoken too many of its members. I have even read some of their literature. Therefore, when I saw News Night I was completely confused. For a moment I thought the BBC were talking about a completely different group until the Dr came on to set the record straight.

Hizb-Ut-Tahrir’s views aren't racist, intolerant or anti-samatic. They are not violent nor are they a paramilitary organization like AL-Qaeda. I don't always agree with everything they say but this doesn’t mean I would want them slandered or banned. From my understanding Hizb-Ut-Tahrir are lobbying for the unity of the world wide Muslim community under one Islamist social political order (the caliphate). They are advocating the idea that Muslims world wide should take control of their own political fate and destiny. They are campaigning against the "good, benign” interference of foreign powers (such as Britain and America) in Muslim countries. They are trying to foster debate between western intellectuals and the wider Muslim Community. There is absolutely nothing wrong in this at all.

I use to believe that the BBC had integrity and was bedrock for impartiality, how wrong I was. My trust and respect for the BBC has been diminished after that fictitious show. It was like watching one of those an anti-western Soviet styled propaganda films.

It is a sign that one of the pillers of the establishment (BBC) is loosing the debate when they have to resort to the lowly tactics of scare mongering, defamation and slander. It’s a sign that groups like Hizb-Ut-Tahrir are winning the debate when the government and its media attempts to silence and sensor non-violent political parties.

I believe that all forms of Soviet styled censorship should be fought against - I hope they sue the BBC for every penny they have. They’ll be sparing the country the gutter journalism we saw on the BBC. By the way, how come the BBC didn’t present this so called “EVIDENCE” to the Police!

  • 188.
  • At 03:49 PM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • David wrote:

@177: Alan

Dear Alan,

With regards to the War against Islam, I think is best to ask a Muslim who practices Islam to ask if they feel they are under "war". Now when they say they are at war, I assume it is not just militarily, but, economically, intellectually and culturally. So its better for them to claim what it is rather than ourselves and have an open debate about it.

Coming back to the main points I rasied of what is wrong with the abov three points:

1. When I discuss with Muslims and ask does Islam ask you to be proud to be being from Bangladesh or proud to be from Pakistan, Kuwait, Qatar, India, Libya, Eygpt, Iraq etc.

Islam according to what I have been informed is against the whole concept of Nationalism or National Identity. The bond of Islam between people has a higher sense of priority than that of a nationalistic bond.

Therefore the caliphate usurping national identity would most probably be welcomed by many muslims.

Looking back in History, when the Caliphate use to span from Spain to Indonesia, they use to have their own local leaders (Wali = Governers) however use to report back to the Caliph.

Also why assume a bloody insurrection??? at the time of the Iranian revolution where masses of civilians killed? No. They wanted that system.

In the same way many muslims want to live by their code of ethics contained in the Quran. Who are we to stop them? Yes if they attack us we have full right to defend ourselves but not cause instability like the west do constantly in other countries.

As for turkey I think it is pretty apt to say, even though Mustapha Kamal removed the Caliphate, (which many muslims loathe him for), has done nothing in changing the status of "The sick man of Europe"!


Communism was destroyed by Capitalism and the Caliphate was destroyed by Capitalsim.
The only difference is that the idealogy of Caliphate (Islam) still is alive within the hearts and minds of the Muslims where as the communist ideolgy is dead within the hearts and minds of people.

As Francis Fukayama said after the collapse of USSR...."This is the end of History..." or is it?

Regards

David

  • 189.
  • At 04:39 PM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • vikingar wrote:

So what do 'Hizb ut Tahrir' members/supporters get up to?

1) Same Post different sites Same Poster (points i - ix):

- Newsnight thread, post #107 'Mohammed Arif' [1a]
- 'Hizb ut Tahrir' thread, 'Mohammed Arif' 15, 2006 - 13:05:01 [1b]

2) Dilpazier Aslam & The Guardian [2]

3) Relative/s of Omar Sharif, the British suicide bomber, were members of Hizb ut Tahrir. Also Omar Sharif had emails sourced from Hizb ut Tahrir in his inbox just before he committed murder. [3]

4) Shiraz Maher a former member - when uni open next month, if you go to freshers' fairs ….. you will find Hizb ut-Tahrir undercover - see 8" [4]

5) A former recruiter for Hizb ut-Tahrir speaks out [5]

6) Kasim Shafiq, recruitment, paintball & Hizb ut Tahrir [6]

7) 'Three cities, four killers' & the role of Hizb ut Tahrir members [7]

8) Ultimately, the activities of Hizb ut Tahrir members got the organisation banned in:
- nearly every Arab state, Germany, Russia and the Muslim states of Central Asia — Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan [8a]
- British Uni Campuses by National Union of Students [8b]

Still, perhaps Parliament has a different opinion of Hizb ut Tahrir?

"The hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) pointed out that Hizb ut-Tahrir bore similarities to Trotskyist organisations, and so it does, in that it operates under a number of identities in order to achieve its totalitarian aims" [9]

As the United Kingdom is not a Muslim country or Islamic state, its rather a poor place for Hizb ut-Tahrir to start their fantasy of an Islamic Camelot/Caliphate.

Still when Hizb ut-Tahrir have been booted out most Islamic countries by other Muslims (even they reject such fantasy extremism) beggars cannot be choosers.

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1a] http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/2006/11/tuesday_14_november_2006.html
[1b] http://www.hizb.org.uk/hizb/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=490&Itemid=109
[2] http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1534499,00.html
[3] http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1895384,00.html
[4] http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=55&ArticleID=1701218
[5] http://www.newstatesman.com/nssubsfilter.php3?newTemplate=NSArticle_NS&newDisplayURN=200507180005
[6] http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2350563.html
[7] http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1530265,00.html
[8a] http://www.worldpress.org/Europe/2146.cfm
[8b] http://www.nusonline.co.uk/news/pressreleases/270231.aspx
[9] http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmhansrd/cm060720/debtext/60720-1036.htm

  • 190.
  • At 04:40 PM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • Richard Parsons wrote:

I went to school with many muslims at a King Edwards Grammar School in Birmingham. Many of them went on to join HT and are still active members today. I found them to be very intellectual and politically active individuals. In an apathetic society where people have become increasingly closeted I have seen these members of HT engage with non muslims like me in a friendly, and intellectual manner.
We currently work together on drugs projects and in building better community relations in the Lozells area where there was racial tension last year resulting in riots.
Why would a supposedly reputable programme like Newsnight espouse lies? Seems very convenient where the government wants to silence all muslims whatever the good they bring to society. Shame on you Paxman!

  • 191.
  • At 06:04 PM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • Mohammed Naseer wrote:

It is apparent from the unanimous response by the Muslims on this discussion board. That the type of Black propaganda this program had resorted to has reaffirmed the fact that the West has not only lost out on winning hearts and minds in the Muslim world, but that it has failed on this side of the Atlantic as well.

Therefore in line with this outcome we are seeing a more focused response towards manufacturing a shape of violent and a villainous image of Political Islam in the International non-Muslim public opinion. The aim behind this is to character assassinate the upcoming Islamic Civilisation and in order to justify a pre-emptive military response.

There is also another reality unfolding, which has seen responses, in the form of painting Muslims as the Fifth column. The object behind this is to create Police States. In relation to this whilst Muslims are being used as the fodder, in order to introduce greater draconian measures through legislations. Yet the intended targets are not Muslims, but in fact the gigantic and fast growing INTERNATIONAL ANTI-CAPITALIST movement which are causing grave concerns to the Pharaohs of the current world order.

Whereas the local dimensions illustrate that Muslim Community has rejected secular, apolitical Islam being forced upon them and with it the failure of Moderates Vs Extremists Agenda.

It is also worth pointing out that contrary to what is being said about Muslim Community being the problem alas Islam being the problem. It is the Foreign Policy of Western Block which is making Western Societies more and more insecure, creating tensions, and breaking down community cohesion for the people of the West, both Muslims and Non-Muslims. The Muslim Community, which includes myself, are a law abiding and a generous community which adheres to the principle of JUSTICE for the people of this world.

  • 192.
  • At 06:29 PM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • shahina wrote:

i found it absolutely disgusting that newsnight portrayed Hizb-ut-tahrir in a negative light. it is well known this organisation is not violent and does not advocates violence, and newsnight should have known better.this group is working hard to build bridges between the muslim and the non-muslims in the communities of london, its picking up the pieces after the mess the government mps have made, so for newsnight to have portryed the organisation in the manner that it did is absolutely disgraceful-newsnight should do what its role is and maybe try presenting the truth rather than lies.

  • 193.
  • At 07:26 PM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • Stranded in Babylon wrote:

It should go without saying that, simply because various posters have had good experiences of Hizb ut Tahrir in their locations, this in no way invalidates the allegations made by Newsnight about goings-on in the Croydon area. It's also entirely possible that the organisation operates with various "faces" (a claim made by an earlier poster, I believe) — an "acceptable" one which it shows to the public, and a more menacing one known only to a much smaller inner circle.

It's interesting to read of Newsnight's investigation of 2003. ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3182271.stm ) It mentions people being afraid to talk because of threats made against them, and there's a very pertinent reference to the organisation's interpretation of what it means to be non-violent:

"We don't believe peace at any cost, first of all. Second of all is that, it is not encouraging violence, it is encouraging retaliation, there's a difference."

In that context, the organisation's constantly reiterated message that Islam is under attack from the west (a message we heard from the HT representative on last Friday's programme, from the HT literature distributor outside Croydon mosque, and on the literature itself) makes perfect sense.

If, as it claims, HT is taking legal action against the BBC, this will have the beneficial effect of keeping the broadcaster's eye on this organisation, rather than letting it slip out of sight for another three years. There's a good chance that the people outside the Croydon mosque, including the one who punched the cameraman, will be identified and their exact connection to HT established to the satisfaction of a court of law. Similarly, the address at which "Jay" was shown the video will come under investigation, and it'll be very interesting to find out who are the residents.

I look forward to the reports — they'll make compulsive viewing.

  • 194.
  • At 08:04 PM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • Saiful wrote:

I was sickened, shocked and disgusted to witness such a gross misrepresentation by newsnight reporters of the Islamic political party Hiszb ut Tahrir on Tuesday night on your programme. As a young muslim professional who knows much about their work and aims, I can also swear by the Quran for their noble aims, achievements, kind personality and manners, but unlike another of the shadowy figures you portrayed who seemed emotionally ostracised, disgrunteled and out of touch with the muslim community, if he was even a genuine muslim. I thought the entire report represented something Tony Blair may have hijacked in his 'well informed' (not) war against terrorism. A very sad day for newsnight journalism.

  • 195.
  • At 09:52 PM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • Alan wrote:

@188 David

You say: “…therefore the caliphate usurping national identity would most probably be welcomed by many muslims”

There is no evidence for this and plenty against. Turkey is an example of vigorously defended secular democracy; they don’t even allow veils and other religious garb to be worn in public buildings. (Ataturk is revered in Turkey, by the way). In addition, they want to become a part of the European Union not a part of some pan-Islamic entity.

You say: “Also why assume a bloody insurrection??? at the time of the Iranian revolution where masses of civilians killed? No. They wanted that system.”

‘They’ didn’t want the system. ‘They’ wanted to overthrow the Shah. ‘They’ comprised liberals, intellectuals, Marxists and Islamists. With the Shah gone Khomeini took his chance and usurped the revolution, turning it into an Islamic revolution by brutally suppressing all opposition. This Iranian Mullahs retain power by suppressing all dissent and press freedom. If they were to loosen their iron grip they would be gone.

You say: “In the same way many muslims want to live by their code of ethics contained in the Quran. Who are we to stop them?”

As long as that code of ethics doesn’t involve killing respected British novelists like Salman Rushdie, no problem. Sadly though, even ‘moderate’ Muslims seem to think that it is perfectly acceptable to sentence an innocent British citizen to death based on a medieval code of law. European writers and journalists take their life into their hands when they criticise Islam. This is intollerable.

You say: “…has done nothing in changing the status of "The sick man of Europe"!”

Turkey is pretty successful. They enjoy personal and press freedoms and have a human rights record unheard of in the Middle East. I think most Europeans would feel more comfortable living in Turkey than almost any other Muslim country.

You say: “Communism was destroyed by Capitalism and the Caliphate was destroyed by Capitalsim.”

Communism detroyed capitalism in the countries that adopted it. Communism everntually broke under the weight of ineptitude and corruption. As they say, communism is the longest path between Capitalism and Capitalism. The Caliphate was detroyed by being on the losing side in World War 1 and Attaturk hammered the final nail in its coffin.

You say: “As Francis Fukayama said after the collapse of USSR...."This is the end of History..." or is it?

You right, Fukayama was full of ****. I think even Fukayama admits this now. Everyone in every age thinks that “this is it”. As Thomas Jefferson said “The tree of liberty is refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants… “ (or something like that). I have no doubt that patriots will be called upon in this, and future generations to defend our liberty.

  • 196.
  • At 10:36 PM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • abduallah wrote:

I completely disagree with what was shown on Newsnight regarding Hizb ut Tahrir. This party is non violent and it engages in intellectual work with the objective of improving our local communities. Many people that I have met speak highly of Hizb ut Tahrir and many believe that this party will improve the conditions of our communities as it encourages dialogue between Muslims and Non-Muslims, assists the youth in building there careers and it helps in the running of local institutions.

  • 197.
  • At 10:53 PM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • yasmeen ahmed wrote:

After the shock of watching newsnight i felt compelled to write in. After finally managing to close my mouth which was open wide with sheer disbelief, my reaction was just to laugh at the ridiculous, disgusting lies that had been broadcast about hizb ut tahrir.

It begs the question, 'are the idea's that hizb ut tahrir propogate such a threat that such a programme was allowed to be aired?' (despite the fact there was no substantial evidence to back up the accusations being made).

As the people all well know (muslims and non muslims), hizb ut tahrir are a non violent political party. Muslims and non muslims alike are united on many facts, one of them being the injustness of the british foreign policy in muslim lands; another is the daily attack via the negative media portrayal of Islam and the muslims...so you see the people (muslim/non) don't hate one another, they hate the unjust hypocritical system they live under.

  • 198.
  • At 11:34 PM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • abu musa wrote:

after watching newsnight i was disgusted to see what lie has been made up of hizb ut tahrir. hizb ut tharir is a non violent plotical party doing good work in building communits relations with muslims and non muslims .

  • 199.
  • At 11:47 PM on 16 Nov 2006,
  • Stephen wrote:

I am a boring white middle-class non-muslim, but I was disgusted at the unfair report about Hizb-ut-Tahrir, and the way that Jeremy Paxman tried to bully the HT representative when he was trying to put his point of view.

No wonder young muslims are furious and alienated when the BBC puts out biased and poorly researched reports full of innuendo and half-truths, then treats people in this way.

The press and TV have a huge role to play in maintaining democratic traditions and community relations, and they definitely failed in their responsibility this time. Apologise!

  • 200.
  • At 12:39 AM on 17 Nov 2006,
  • A Razaq wrote:

The story about HT smacks of lies propaganda and complete disregard for any moral ethical of just value.

I have known this group for a number of years and have never experienced any violence or encouragement of violence from them. I am extremely angry and annoyed at news outlets such as newsnight doing actions of such stupidity because this should be a time where you need to build credibility and trust between communities NOT run stories that every single MUSLIM in th UK knows are complete and utter lies and false propaganda for ulterior political objectives.

This indeed is a new LOW for the BBC.Shame...Shame...Shame

  • 201.
  • At 01:12 AM on 17 Nov 2006,
  • Ali K wrote:

I was utterly disgusted at the newsnight report about HT. I have come accross members of HT at my uni and they are the most rational people you'd ever meet. Its all over thier websites, they believe intellectaul discussions are the way forward.

Shame on the BBC and Paxman for stooping at such a low level!

  • 202.
  • At 01:30 AM on 17 Nov 2006,
  • Abdul Malik wrote:

This was possibly the worst piece of journalism I have ever seen from the BBC. I used to respect Paxman as a good interviewer but it seems over the years he has lost the stomach to take the stick to the politicians he interviews and has instead decided to pick on the current whipping boys of society, the Muslims.

Whilst enough has been said about Hizb ut Tahrir not being as described, one truly has to wonder what the intentions were behind this report. With John Reid looking once again to introduce further draconian measures in the next session of parliament it seems the BBC has taken a decision to help add to the hysteria and scaremongering that will inevitably be required to discuss such legislation. The BBC has proven itself beyond doubt now to be nothing more than a tool of the Government.

  • 203.
  • At 01:45 AM on 17 Nov 2006,
  • Mr Wallace wrote:

trust me on this, i have read as many comments on this newsnight report on HT.clearly many muslims are disappointed to say the least of the newsnight report.always happy to be enlightened and to hold my hands up when i find my opinion has been incorrect due to misinformation or prejudice.i have read as much info on HT and find myself even more horrified that HT reside on these islands masquerading as a peaceful Islamic movement.why are they banned in nearly all Islamic countries,and totally banned in Europe and even Russia has outlawed HT.I have learnt that HT dress up as respectable Islamic movement with the upstandind pillars of Muslim communities working to an ideolical and political end that is totally incompatible with British culture steeped in the Christian beliefs and values.i therefore come to the conclusion that my instincts were correct and the BBC were correct in the HT report.I may be alone with this opinion posted on this blog save for a few eloquently put and better informed comments but i could not help but notice the majority(not all)against the BBC report were non Anglo saxon named,very telling indeed.

  • 204.
  • At 02:45 AM on 17 Nov 2006,
  • David wrote:

Thank you for getting back on the issue.

I think there are some assumptions we both are making when responding to our replies.

Here are a few themes I would like you to be aware of when going through my past replies and future ones.

1. No Muslim country today is an example of what a caliphate is or aspires to be. All Muslims according to my understanding hate the repressive regimes that kill them, oppress them, torture them for whatever political persuasion (caliphate or democracy).

2. Most of the regimes that are there in the Muslim countries are backed, supported, financed by Western Countries. e.g. In Iran in 1953 the CIA helped orchestrate a coup against the elected leader of Iran, Mohammad Mossadegh, who was wildly popular at home for having nationalised his country's oil industry, much to the dismay of American and British oil companies who previously owned Iranian oil. In his place they brought to power the brutal Shah who through his dreaded secret police, the SAVAK, tortured and murdered thousands. Saddam Hussien in the 1980's funding him agaisnt the Iranians. Hosni Mubarak ( 2nd biggest recipient of US Aid after Israel), Islam Karimov of Uzbekistan, President Musharraf of Pakistan, King Abduallah of Saudi Arabia, Gamal Abdul Nasser of Egypt in the 1960s, etc etc

All these leaders came into power by the blessings of the Western leaders of that specific time. Who do you think supported the SHAH of Iran and consequently suffered with his removal?
After World War 1 the allies divided up the Ottoman Caliphate into small statelets as proxies for the colonialists. e.g. Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Palestine/Israel, Jordan, Syria etc. See Sykes - Picots agreement.

3. Hizb ut tarir states that they want a caliphate in the Muslim countries not here in Britain.

Now to address some of the issues you have raised:

1. In turkey, do you think the Muslims are happy they can't wear this head scarves in public spaces. Or speak freely about the political views in how the army has ultimate say about the government. I wonder why the E.U. is so careful about turkey? I don' think the people in Turkey are enjoying the freedoms as you point out they are compared to Middle East (refer to point 2.)

The other issue of labelling the "code of ethics" to a mere killing of a author compared to what this "code of ethics" did at the time of Medieval Europe and for the next 1300 years is quite rash on your behalf. I agree that aspect of law from the quran has no right to be implemented furthermore should not be stated for a British Citizen. However if Mr. Rushdie lived in the Caliphate and authored this book, I would have no qualms with it. If you decide to live in state like that i.e where the whole of the code of ethics are implemented not parts, live by the laws.

We need to be sure what it means to critcize Islam and what it is to insult it.

My understanding:

Crticism = Why in Islam is a Man allowed to marry more than one woman, where as the woman can marry only one man?

Insult = Caricuture of Prophet Muhammed, depicting him as a terrorist.

As you can see criticism leads to dialogue and debate and understanding of one another. Insults on the other causes us to hate, loathe and be aggressive to one another.

There is no question of intolerence but human decency.

Alan I do not know how much interactions you have with Muslims, however from my experience, they want a country where full Islamic Law is Implemented [Caliphate]. So to say there is evidence agaisnt it you have to bring it forward. Mine being the reason why we are on this blog in the first place!

Regards

David

  • 205.
  • At 08:12 AM on 17 Nov 2006,
  • C Nathaniel wrote:

Disgraceful gutter journalism. Hizb ut Tahrir are neither backwards frothing at the mouth extremists, nor criminals. They simply present reasoned arguments and Islam how it should be presented. Naturally this is the scenario most feared by the government, that there should be a group of ideological muslims capable of refuting their lies and highlighting their corruption whilst at the same time showing the beauty of Islam.


"Nay, but We hurl the truth against falsehood, and it crushes the latter, and behold, it withers away. But woe to you for all the falsehoods you ascribe (to Us)." The Holy Quran

It is you who are contributing to the radicalization of the British public, slandering a non violent organisation who simply want to end tyranny in the muslim world and empower the muslims via the caliphate, demonising muslims and distorting the beautiful message of Islam. Sadly mud often sticks and the damage is done.

"Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse." The Holy Quran.

You have shown a reckless contempt not only for muslims living in the west but also for the values of journalism. Shame on you.

  • 206.
  • At 09:03 AM on 17 Nov 2006,
  • vikingar wrote:

FOR THE RECORD:

2003 - earlier Newsnight programme about Hizb ut Tahrir [1a]
2006 - Newsnights additional programme about Hizb ut Tahrir [1b] [1c]

HIZB UT TAHRIR:

A bit of background from Journal of Middle Eastern Geopolitics [2a] & wikipedia [2b]

Its has been alleged that Hizb ut Tahrir UK uses a number of alises to promote it agenda [3a] [3b]

Q. why the need for alises?

ANS. The National Union of Students have banned Hizb ut Tahrir in the UK for various reasons [4]

But the Federation of Student Islamic Societies insist that Hizb ut Tahrir UK is non violent & should not be banned [5]

Still, its alleged that Hizb ut Tahrir UK uses a number of alises to promote it agenda esp on British University Campuses given that is where young impressionabel muslims are, so warns former Hizb ut Tahrir member Shiraz Maher [3a] [7b]

ALLEGED ALISES:

1924 Committee [6a]
Current Affairs Society [7a] [7b]
Dialogue With Islam [8a]
Khilafah Movement [9a] [9b] [9c]
Muslim Media Forum [10a]
Muslim Current Affairs Society [11a]
New Civilisation Magazine [12a] [4a]
Stop Islamophobia [10a]

SUMMARY:

Q.1 if 'Hizb ut Tahrir' are so above board, whey the need for so many aisles?

Q.2 if membership of 'Hizb ut Tahrir' is no problem, then why did it have bearing on this traniee journalists employment? [13a]

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1a] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3182271.stm
[1b] http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2006/11/investigating_hizb_uttahrir.html
[1c] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/6148602.stm
[2a] http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:fBL-PzwZaqUJ:padis2.uniroma1.it:81/ojs/index.php/JMEG/article/viewPDFInterstitial/236/220+Hizb+ut+Tahrir+coup&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=10
[2b] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizb_ut-Tahrir
[3a] http://www.socialaffairsunit.org.uk/blog/archives/001061.php
[3b] http://www.esatclear.ie/%7Edialogueireland/conferences/2002/sharefaith2-part2.htm
[4] http://www.nusonline.co.uk/news/pressreleases/270231.aspx
[5] http://www.fosis.org.uk/committees/media/independent_onsunday.htm
[6a] http://www.futureofmuslimworld.com/research/pubID.21/pub_detail.asp
[7a] http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/698
[7b] http://forum.mpacuk.org/archive/index.php?t-9143.html
[8a] http://www.dialoguewithislam.org/
[9a] http://prs.heacademy.ac.uk/documents/discussion_articles/studying_islam_after_9-11_reflections_and_resources.html
[9b] http://www.khilafah.com/
[9c] http://forum.mpacuk.org/archive/index.php?t-1556.html
[10a] http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1827988,00.html
[11a] http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/sunny_hundal/2006/08/shall_we_stay_left_or_turn_rig.html
[12a] http://www.newcivilisation.com/
[13a] http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1534499,00.html

  • 207.
  • At 10:26 AM on 17 Nov 2006,
  • James Halperton wrote:

Something troubled me about the report on HT in the Tuesday programme so I did some digging and came up with some startling information. In the opening section on HT much play was made about the fracas outside the Mosque in which HT was distributing an advert to some event or talk, but nothing further about that event was mentioned which seemed strange. What was this shadowy organisation doing outside the Mosque that attracted such attention of the cameras in the first place and surely there would be a camera (even a secret one) at this event they were advertising? After some research it appears that the event was a debate between a Taji Mustafa from HT and Dolan Cummings of the Institute of Ideas, and the topic was the US/UK War on Terror (debate was held in Tooting on Sunday 12th Nov). The central tenet of the Newsnight programme appeared to me to be that HT are fomenting hatred and violence against the non-Muslim community in this country, yet the event Newsnight were investigating was advertised in the community and attended by Muslims, non-Muslims and even addressed by a non-Muslim speaker! What is going on here?
HT appear to call for a political Caliphate system in the Middle East. I’m no expert but it seems to me that if they are working for political stability in this region which is a complete mess, then good luck to them. We should be asking the question of the BBC as to why repression of political views (no matter how odd) is now on their agenda?

  • 208.
  • At 10:53 AM on 17 Nov 2006,
  • ather khan wrote:

THE REPORT ON THE 141106 RE HT WAS 100% INCORRECT, IT IS THIS TYPE OF GUTTER JOURNALISM THAT LENDS SUPPORT TO THE RIGHT WING, THE BBC HAS ONCE AGAIN SHOWN IT SELF TO BE IMPARTIAL, WATCHING JEREMY PAXMAN WAS SCARRY HE ACTED LIKE HE WAS HAVING A RUCK IN THE STREET, COME ON NEWSNIGHT STOP MAKING MUSLIMS THE NEW JEWS, THE HT IS NOT A TERRORIST GROUP, NOR IS IT INVOLVED IN ANY CRIME. STOP THE CHEQUE BOOK JOURNALISM AND BE MORE PROFESSIONAL.

  • 209.
  • At 03:10 PM on 17 Nov 2006,
  • vikingar wrote:

Ref James Halperton #207

"What is going on here? HT appear to call for a political Caliphate system in the Middle East. I’m no expert but it seems to me that if they are working for political stability in this region which is a complete mess, then good luck to them"

Correct, you do not seem to an expert on political Islam, nor I am for that matter :)

However, I can recognise duplicitous & devise mantra when it served up by a radical extremist organisation like Hizb ut Tahrir in a 'reasonable' manner (on occasion) & also the other times when their guard is down.

For example:

- 1) 'reasonable' public face of Hizb ut Tahrir' represented by 'Taji Mustafa' by on Channel 4's Starkeys Last word [1]

- 2) 'agitated' public face of Hizb ut Tahrir' represented by 'Taji Mustafa' by on Channel 4 Dispatches 'Muslim & Free Speech' debate [2]

- 3) ''natural' public face of Hizb ut Tahrir' represented by 'Taji Mustafa' by on London march [3]

- 4) the private 'insidious' face of 'Hizb ut Tahrir' revealed by a former member Shiraz Maher [4]

On this thread, I refer you to my #58 #116 #164 #189 #206

It is what anyone with internet access can do, examine the plethora links from various sources & make your own mind up.

I argue they testify & amply demonstrate why 'Hizb ut Tahrir' is banned in many countries, including British University campuses.

As an organisation which touts itself as being global, also a simple investigation of Hizb ut Tahrir abroad reveals equally alarming things.

Since it’s a global organisation dedicated to establishing a worldwide Caliphate, each national part of the organisation is reflective of its international whole & their common aims.

The fact that the UK branch of 'Hizb ut Tahrir' was founded & led by Omar Bakri a.k.a. Sheik Omar Bakri Mohammed is wholly telling in itself , esp given Bakri's long association with 'Hizb ut Tahrir' since 1970's in ME [5]

The track record & history of 'Hizb ut Tahrir' is the one thing they cannot spin away :)

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1] http://www.channel4.com/player/v2/player.jsp?showId=3050
[2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HBNVdV4Vw0&mode=related&search=
[3] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAXVnZcxp34&mode=related&search=
[4] http://www.socialaffairsunit.org.uk/blog/archives/001061.php
[5] http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=845

  • 210.
  • At 04:16 PM on 17 Nov 2006,
  • david wrote:

"#58 #116 #164 #189 #206
Vikingar

Thank you for your informatives posts which I assume you have dug up yourself.

Unfortumately like yourself I have not got the time of day to do such intensive reasearch. However I have two issues to address regarding your points.

1. I disagree with the fact that using the Banning of this Hizb in other countries especially Middle East as a justification. Woman driving in Saudi Arabia is banned! In Jordan you cannot speak against the Policy of King Abdallah without being visited by the secret police. So please in your future comments do not use this as a "credible" argument agaisnt the Hizb.

The way you should judge the hizb are by its ideas it propagates and disseminates and argue how "wrong" or "right" they are and not us other countries policies towards the hizb. We in Britain are fully capable of making the decision ourselves.

2. The repeated point of how the NUS has applied the "No platform policy" on the Hizb therfore should alarm bells in our nations hearts is a premature conclusion on your behalf.

I recall the UJS (Union of Jewish Students) not so long ago had this policy applied to them. However as soon as the acceptance of Israel as a state was declared by the UN and how it is NOT an zionist state, the platform was removed. Now the UJS invites national executive members of the NUS for a FREE trip to Israel!

Kat Fletcher the last years President of NUS had many meeting with the Hizb and found it very informative and useful and questioned why this ban is in place?

Furthermore FOSIS last year contested the No Platform policy on behalf of the Hizb (research the Guardian for evidence).

I will however accept testomonies if you bring evidence of "alarming news" that has been stated by a members of Hizb ut tahrir Britain that should cause for concern. From what i have heard from Taji, Abdul Wahid and Jamal Harwood, nothing has caused concern for me.

Your points about Alias's and operating under different names. You might have a point here or probably you might not. A quick glance at dialogue with Islam website State very clearly they are nothing to do with the hizb.

This at the end of the day is probably the exact type of propaganda BBC are doing with the Hizb now!

One day you might quote this newsnight report as a "factual" or substansive" evidence to show how hizb is "bad", even though everyone knows the hizb has nothing to do with CRIMINALITY! Which was the point of this investigation.

I look forward to your reply.

Thankyou

Regards

David.

  • 211.
  • At 07:10 PM on 17 Nov 2006,
  • Baz wrote:

It is important that the BBC is independent and is not intimidated by the organised campaign displayed above.
The criticisms of the report use largely the same language ,are unable to make criticisms of any substance and are indicative of the vicious and organised lobbying from militant religious groups that has become so familiar. The Beeb didnt give in to the Jerry Springer the Opera loonies and and wont here either. (Though it is worrying that these automotons are so easily led that this group can instruct all its members to deluge this blog and they willingly do so) If Hizb ut-Tahrir are so whiter than white, why do they feel the need to try to apply pressure to the Beeb?If you have a case, then take legal action. Dare you!
The BBC is impartial, the complainants know that, its just that sometimes the truth is hard for them to stomach.
One further point: "I know a member of Hizb ut-Tahrir and he is a good guy' is not evidence the report was incorrect.

  • 212.
  • At 08:32 PM on 17 Nov 2006,
  • Stranded in Babylon wrote:

Responding to message 207, by James Halperton:

You write: "... the event Newsnight were investigating was advertised in the community and attended by Muslims, non-Muslims and even addressed by a non-Muslim speaker!"

This was *not* the event Newsnight was investigating!

It just happened to be the event which the people outside the mosque were promoting when the BBC went outside and put questions to them.

Also, you say "the topic was the US/UK War on Terror". However, if you looked at the title of the leaflet being handed out, you would have seen it was "Unveiling Bush & Blair's War on Islam". Not "war on terror", but "war on Islam". The document also spoke of "a government campaign to blame [Islam] for the terror threat to Britain". These weren't presented as matters of debate (eg "Is the 'War on Terror' a war on Islam?" or "Is there a government campaign to blame Islam...?"), but matters of accepted fact. In itself, not illegal, but it shows where Hizb ut Tahrir is coming from, and could well be inflammatory. (Personally, I think it is, and I suspect it's designed to be.)

In the interview, Dr Abdul Wahid confirmed this was an official Hizb ut Tahrir leaflet.

  • 213.
  • At 08:41 PM on 17 Nov 2006,
  • Samir Khan wrote:

Some quotes include:

Hizb ut-Tahrir is a completely non-violent organisation." [Craig Murray, the ex-British ambassador to Uzbekistan, Al-Jazeera, 17/5/05]

"it advocates the restoration of the Islamic caliphate. It differs from jihadi groups which share this objective in abstaining from violent activity." [International Crisis Group, 2/3/05]

"Hizb ut-Tahrir [HT] is an independent political party that is active in many countries across the world. HT's activities centre on intellectual reasoning, logic arguments and political lobbying. The party adheres to the Islamic Shariah law in all aspects of its work. It considers violence or armed struggle against the regime, as a method to re-establish the Islamic State, a violation of the Islamic Shariah." [Restricted Home Office Documents 19/8/03, Released to Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain 1/6/05 under FOI Act]

"Hizb ut-Tahrir - Lines to take if extensive coverage is given in the media: Freedom of thought and speech key element of our society. Our tradition that there is a place for those who disagree with the way we do things ? unless they espouse violence as a way to achieve their ends." [Restricted Home Office Documents 19/8/03, Released to Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain 1/6/05 under FOI Act]

"We have yet to see convincing evidence that Hizb ut-Tahrir as an organisation advocates violence or terrorism. Nor are we aware of any co-operation between it and Al Qaeda." [UK FCO Minister Bill Rammell, Hansard, 19/4/04]

"It will be impossible to see Hizb ut-Tahrir as a terrorist organisation. If Hizb ut-Tahrir resorts to violence then it can be described as a terrorist organisation. Further more Hizb ut-Tahrir, as it stands, cannot be proscribed as a terrorist organisation." [Verdict Turkish Second State Security Court, 13/4/04]

"Hizb ut-Tahrir does not advocate a violent overthrow of Muslim regimes... Instead HT believes in winning over mass support, believing that one day these supporters will rise up in peaceful demonstrations and overthrow the regimes of Central Asia." [Ahmed Rashid, Jihad: the Rise of Militant Islam in Central Asia]

"Hizb ut-Tahrir quite explicitly disavows violence as its means for achieving power." [John Schoeberlein, Director of Harvard University?s Central Asia program]

"Hizb ut-Tahrir has shown dissatisfaction on the policies of the [Pakistan] government which is the right of each and every citizen?I am unable to understand as to how distribution of these pamphlets in the general public was termed as terrorism or sectarianism.? [Multan Bench, Lahore High Court, March 2005]

"Ata Abu Rushta, spokesperson for the Hizb ut-Tahrir, Liberation Party in Jordan, a party seeking to re-establish the Islamic Caliphate, was sentenced to three years' imprisonment in February by the State Security Court for lese-majesty under Article 195(1) of the Penal Code in connection with an interview he had given to the newspaper al-Hiwar. The statements on which the charges were based did not advocate violence." [Amnesty International Report, 1997]

  • 214.
  • At 11:26 PM on 17 Nov 2006,
  • dan ross wrote:

From the interviews I have seen with HT, they are not trying to make Britain into an Islamic State, but rather remove their thuggish rulers in their lands and install a caliphate.

Reading Craig Murrays book about how badly in Uzbekitan they treat the general public, and then torture members of HT, makes a chilling read.
Perhaps we should encourage their work in their own lands so they can be rid of such dictatorial regimes. I am not surprised they are banned in muslim countries as their leaders, faced with being toppled, see them as a clear threat. But why do we in Britain see them as a threat when we uphold freedom of the individual and hold firmly to our human rights principles?

  • 215.
  • At 12:19 PM on 19 Nov 2006,
  • Jeremy Paxman (only kidding) wrote:

London, UK, November 19 – A BBC report today confirmed that the proposed ban on the non-violent Islamic political party, Hizb ut-Tahrir, was intended to coincide with Prime Minister Tony Blair's visit to Pakistan's military dictator, President Musharraf.

The BBC report stated that despite no evidence whatsoever of any links between Hizb ut-Tahrir and violence being uncovered by the police and the security services, both Tony Blair and Home Secretary John Reid have been in favour of banning Hizb ut-Tahrir.

Commenting on these new revelations, Dr Imran Waheed, media representative of Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain, said, "It is now abundantly clear to everybody despite slander, vilification and distortion of our views that Hizb ut-Tahrir is a political party that is at the forefront of challenging tyranny and dictatorship - far away from the lies of violent extremism and terrorism.

From the very beginning, since the proposal to ban our organisation was first mooted, we said that this was due to the pressure placed on Britain by the dictators of the Muslim world, who wanted Hizb ut-Tahrir's political work to be stifled. This is further evidence that this was the case."

"We accept that it is undoubtedly true that our organisation causes the government considerable political and diplomatic discomfort, in that our campaigning against dictators in the Muslim world, many of whom are allies of the government – such as General Musharraf and Presidents Karimov and Mubarak - exposes its hypocrisy. It may be that the government hoped that a ban, though legally unjustifiable, would hamper our exposing of this hypocrisy from a government that has prosecuted an illegal war in Iraq, in which over 650,000 civilians have been killed, supposedly in order to remove a dictator, whilst supporting and co-operating with other dictators and tyrants the world over."

"These revelations also put the recent fictitious and slanderous BBC allegations about Hizb ut-Tahrir into a political context. The timing of the report by BBC File on 4 and BBC Newsnight was closely associated with the desire of the Home Office to ban Hizb ut-Tahrir as Blair visited Musharraf this weekend and offered £480m for the 'war on terror'."

PUTS THE HERESAY TO REST!! SHAME SHAME NEWSNIGHT!!

  • 216.
  • At 02:23 PM on 19 Nov 2006,
  • john wrote:

will newsnight now apologise to our Moslem HT citizens? Or are they still not equal (to challenge). An apology will, i think, just might save the reputation of the BBC (Newsnight) among the many, decent minded, rational, human beings.

And BBC, please stop acting like Tony Blairs Channel.

  • 217.
  • At 05:48 PM on 19 Nov 2006,
  • Andy Gil wrote:

Excellent report by Newsnight. The program exposed the real nature of extremist Islam, and the danger it poses to our way of life.

I look forward to more such reporting in the months to come. The extremists can't stand the spotlight, because they know their insanity is despised by the majority of Muslims and non-Muslims in this country.

  • 218.
  • At 05:57 AM on 20 Nov 2006,
  • Mahmud Ibrahim wrote:

To David (204),

I have been following your excellent, thought provoking and educative exchanges with Alan.

Amazing! Your rationality and objectivity in comparison to Alan, is Planets apart!

I personally believe this is the only way forward to engage people who for decades, if not centuries, were subjected to deep misinformation and misconception about Islam through education, the media, films, and in the contemporary, through governments etc.

Although at times it may feel frustrating to reason with people who have a "closed mind", I salute you David, for your persistence in enlightening such "souls".

Indeed, only through such an informed dialogue it is hoped that an understanding and peace will eventually prevail in our fractured world.

  • 219.
  • At 10:40 AM on 20 Nov 2006,
  • john wrote:

ANDY GIL (217) is ovbiousely not a decent minded person, definately not a rational one. His praise (to newsnight) is rather like the newsnights accusation of Moslem group- irrational,ignorant, unfounded and full of innuendos.
back it up with substances, not everyone here are SUN readers

  • 220.
  • At 06:01 PM on 20 Nov 2006,
  • sophie wrote:

@ Andy Gill(217)

Serioulsy Mr Gill get a reality check! it is sad to see ppl like u who come up with absolutely no substantiating evidence for the accusations u go aroung flinging on innocent ppl- ppl who actually have the spine and the courage to speak the truth and with it provide supporting evidence. these so called muslims u r calling extremists, why dont u open up a debate with them just to understand what it is that they stand for and if u r in the right that will come to light and if u r in the wrong that too will be exposed. so up for the CHALLENGE???

  • 221.
  • At 11:32 AM on 21 Nov 2006,
  • Abu Mustapha wrote:

I have been reading all the above posts with interestand concern.

As a muslim who is born in Britain, educated here, paid ten of thousands in taxes never broken the law and contributed a hell of a lot to this society, I am constantly made to feel an outsider by the press.

I feel very nervous about the future.

I hope the spirit of fairness prevails amongst the nonMuslims otherwise what happened in BOSNIA will be a picnic compared to what may happen here.

  • 222.
  • At 12:21 PM on 21 Nov 2006,
  • Aamir wrote:

As Muslims its time we stood up to those fanatics like HT. I live in South London and I have come across a member of HT, very well, well mannered and polite which I fell prey and from personal experience their approach tried to condition my mind. It was a frightening experience. I was lucky to get away from their trap.

There message is to simply spread hatred between communities and cause grief.

  • 223.
  • At 01:11 PM on 21 Nov 2006,
  • sophie wrote:

@ Aamir(222)

Seems like you had quite an experience with a member of HT. Can I also ask what this frightening experience of yours was? Cos I too have met them and been to their debates and discussions and I must say far from being frightened of them, I appreciated what they do for this society which seems to be in the dumps. Its youngsters have no clue where they are going in their lives, the adults seem to be too busy with the distractions put in place for them. Everyone hankering after the senseless pleasures ultimately leading to the classic case of "DEPRESSION". Crime rate is over the roof. Even the MPs are tired of trying to come up with "new agendas" to get rid of the mayhem this society has flung itself into. In the words of David Cameron "Everything is falling apart". Mr Aamir take a close look and you WILL see how brainwashed you Really are, by the media, the politicians. They repeat the same old message- "Muslims are bad!, their ideology is EVIL, they are out to get us, we should get their community to turn their backs on them if we wanna win this war on terror, MODERATE ISLAMISTS have to turn their brothers and sisters in! Universities should keep a keen eye on anyone who has grown even an inch of a beard!". It is ridiculous how these rhetorics come from the very ppl who are the ardent supporters of violence and blood shed of innocent children, women and men. It is high time they openly admit their war crimes and try to obtain salvation for this destitute society.
Mr Aamir if you dont look into the mirror and ask yourself sincerely who it is that is causing strain between communities and immense grief in the world, I would say you definitely Have fallen into the trap!!!

  • 224.
  • At 02:17 PM on 21 Nov 2006,
  • vikingar wrote:

Anyone interested in 'Hizb ut-Tahrir' would benefit from a review of this international report.

“The Challenge of Hizb ut-Tahrir: Deciphering and Combating Radical Islamist Ideology” [1]

- Produced by The Nixon Centre [2] in October 2004.

Easiest digest via the Executive Summary pages 7-12

Very comprehensive in scope & whom they involved in the study.

vikingar

[1] http://www.nixoncenter.org/Program%20Briefs/PB%202004/confrephiztahrir.pdf
[2] http://www.nixoncenter.org/index.cfm?action=showPage&page=about

  • 225.
  • At 02:27 PM on 21 Nov 2006,
  • vikingar wrote:

hurraaahhh !!!

Only took 7 re-writes :)

vikingar

  • 226.
  • At 06:57 PM on 21 Nov 2006,
  • david wrote:

Dear Vikingar,

When United States, then foreign secretary Colin Powell presented the case for the War on Iraq to the United nations. Satellite images, tape recordings of soldiers etc. etc. it was also interesting to see who was included in the research of this intelligence gathering. They sure sounded comprehensive in the scope of the presentation and conclusion (They have WMD).

Forwarding a report from The Nixon Centre, in my opinion, a right wing think tank, does not impress me.

The facts are that there have been MORE victims on the WAR on Terror, than what the terroists have achieved.

BOTH ARE TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE.

We, the public need to decide sooner rather than later of what is the root cause of Terrorism.

Two hypothesis have been brought forward:

1. The West' Foreign Policy and intereference in Middle East Politics.[Osama Bin Laden and Most Muslims]

2. The Establishment of a Caliphate. [George Bush, Tony Blair and Co.]

Those who are interested to analyse must do their own research like yourself and come up with a conclusion.

Whether we give in to the ultimatum of George Bush, "Either you are with us or with the terrorist.." or not, it is very clear that regarding this political party Hizb ut tarir it wants a caliphate but through a method of winning the hearts and minds and not violence. The above quotes of Samir Khan (No. 213) testifies to this claim.

So the problem here of banning the hizb, is to do with "connection with violence" or is it because of the objective of establishing a Caliphate in the Muslim World?

If it is proven in the court of law that this party advocates violence for its objectives than i agree it should be banned. However if it sees that the Caliphate can bring peace and stability in the middle east (which I must say the west have failed miserably for over 50 years..) than they should be allowed to exist and participate in dialogue and discussion about this issue and good luck to them if they can.

Lets just stop scaremongering and propagting opinions of no meaningful resolution. To me it seems America fears an obstacle to its hegemony over the Middle east.

We need to see does the values of democracy, rule of law, tolerence, liberty can withstand to see a non - violent, political party banned! If these values can't than I am afraid we will have to reasses these values we live in and hold dear to our hearts in this society.

Regards

David

  • 227.
  • At 11:08 PM on 22 Nov 2006,
  • lulu wrote:

What I find interesting is the recent interview Paxman had with the investigative journalist reporting about the Robert Kennedy assassination. One of the first questions was " You do'nt really have any hard evidences, do you?"
You only have to be muslim to be a radical no evidence required. A shady character will do as "hard evidence". This will be my last dialogue with the BBC. My new years resolution is to give up TV and join grassroots organizations interesting in promoting dialogue. If we could personify what the BBC has become - a certain royal correspondent on ITVs This Morning

  • 228.
  • At 01:17 PM on 23 Nov 2006,
  • Taher wrote:

HT do a fantastic job. Without theem, we woudl be heading towards segregation in UK. It's like how the British divided Africa, took control of S.Africa, Australia etc. They would have shoved us all in Bradford, and set the BNP on to us like vultures. We all need to stand up to the terrorists. Terrorists ar those who make us do things being terrorised. Take for example the Palestinian children running in fear away from their school due to an Isreali sniper on top of their school firing at them. And what about the British/US soldiers abusing and killing innocent civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq. We are the ones being terrorised, not just the handful of those that got killed in 9/11 or 7/7 bombing.

  • 229.
  • At 06:37 AM on 24 Nov 2006,
  • Abu Laith wrote:

It seems the basis of newsnight and file on four evidence rests on allegations collated for them by the right wing neo conservative think tank 'VIGIL'.

And it seems that HT have found evidence of their agenda against Islam and the Muslims, here is just a sample of the evidence unearthed by individuals who write and do research for the internet based group called 'VIGIL'

The website links to Pervez Khan's "message from hell" which has a cartoon with the caption "We made it to Paradise! Now we will meet Allah and be fed grapes, and be serviced by 70 virgin women, and…" Jenvey [writing as Pervez Khan] writes, "It seems here in paradise... there are only big fat grey haired toothless women. and rent boys! Its very hot down here in paradise and run by a man called the devil! Better known as cheekey devil! Im off to pub later to get a skin full of beer.... its hot but the beers good!" http://www.hizb.org.uk/hizb/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=589&Itemid=184

Glen Jenvey IS one of the leading members OF VIGIL.

How sad that the BBC have to rely on individuals who make up such a hate filled organisation.

Oh and just another quote from another member of the vigil group

Reynalds says, "I am a conservative, evangelical, bible-believing, fundamentalist, right-wing, Bush-loving Christian and I also love Israel and the Jewish race. And I believe in free speech - but I want to see radical Islam defeated."
http://www.somethingcool.ca/backissues/052404/feature61.htm

Bravo BBC for finding your sources.

  • 230.
  • At 04:33 AM on 25 Nov 2006,
  • Mahmud Ibrahim wrote:

To Sophie (220, 223),

Don't worry!

When the going gets tough, some people who throng these websites, may disguise themselves as Muslims purely for DECEPTION!!!

  • 231.
  • At 08:12 PM on 27 Nov 2006,
  • vikingar wrote:

Ref Mahmud Ibrahim #230

Some people may disguise themselves as non Muslim purely for DECEPTION !!!

There have certainly been an orchestrated waft of 'Outraged from Tunbridge Wells' & 'Radical but Reasonable' responses with a pro 'Hitz ut tahrir' message.

But fooling no-one :)

vikingar

  • 232.
  • At 05:34 PM on 28 Nov 2006,
  • mh wrote:

i know the good doctor,and a fine soul he is.
remember who do you trust a medical doctor or tony's spin doctors!

  • 233.
  • At 10:20 PM on 28 Nov 2006,
  • david wrote:

Ref Vikingar #231

I can see the buzz some people get in winning tit for tat arguments!

Try increasing the level of discussion. Have a look at # 210 & 226, see if you can manage a buzz from that!

Regards,

David

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