BBC NEWS | Month without plastic

Non-plastic picnicking

Chris Jeavans
18 Aug 08, 12:16 PM GMT

Avoiding plastic is all very well when it just impacts on my own choices but trying to keep it up in company is more difficult.

Some friends organised a picnic on Saturday which was lovely - we even had sunny weather.

I had made sure that the food we contributed was plastic-free: two pizzas from a bakery, paper bags of cherries and tomatoes, a wax-wrapped cheese and drinks in glass bottles.

But I fell down on the receptacles: I forgot to bring any cups and our hosts had plastic disposable ones. I didn't even realise what I was doing until half way through the first "glass" and I wasn't going to be so churlish as to protest.

Everyone had metal cutlery and paper plates so we were "safe" on that score.

There are, however, many other non-plastic options for disposable tableware.

Plates can be made from bamboo, cassava starch, reed starch or bagasse - the waste fibre from pressing sugar cane.

Wooden cutlery is available as well as bio-plastic versions made from corn or potato starch mixed with vegetable oil.

The manufacturers claim that their products are compostable or biodegradable under the right conditions.

However, as with all biodegradable products, the challenge is ensuring they end up in a composter (whether home or large scale) or anaerobic digester rather than landfill.

When biodegradable matter breaks down in the low oxygen environment of a landfill site it creates the powerful greenhouse gas, methane.

Some of the methane is captured by a system of pipes and can be used as fuel but the rest escapes into the air.

Latest government estimates (2007 provisional) put the amount of methane emissions from UK landfill at 0.96 million tonnes, 41% of the UK total of 2.3 million tonnes.

In an anaerobic digester the same biodegradation process occurs but because it is a closed unit, all the biogas (methane and carbon dioxide) can be trapped and used for energy.

Composting works aerobically and so does not create methane.

But Friends of the Earth's senior waste campaigner Mike Warhurst warns against assuming that just because something is bio-degradable it's "greener".

"I'm seeing a lot of confusion happening where people are using disposable items and then implying that they're good because they're biodegradable.

"Whatever it is it required energy to make it. So if you're in a café, you're far better off having a cup which is washed up than having so-called biodegradable cups.

"There's not much point in stuff being biodegradable if it goes in your normal rubbish bin and ends up in landfill or in an incinerator."

Which is also where that non-biodegradable plastic cup I used at the picnic is destined.

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1. At 1:06pm on 18 Aug 2008, ajs_dy wrote:
Why need anything you take on a picnic be disposable anyway?

You must have had transport to get to the picnic site, so carrying your stuff back with you should not be an issue.

You can buy fully-reusable picnic sets with metal cutlery, plastic glasses and melamine plates.

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2. At 1:09pm on 18 Aug 2008, moose44 wrote:
Sorry Chris, the paper plates were "Safe"? Trees were felled for them.
Why are you looking for "disposable tableware" anyway?

They just go into landfill! A decent plastic or metal camping plate would heve much been better as you can re-use it. Ditto With re-usable plastic mugs or "glasses".

I guess you have never been camping? I've had some of my stuff for over ten years, this is better than throwing things away each time.

I support what you are doing, but the "All plastic wrong, everything else good" mantra is just ludicrous.

REDUCE REUSE RECYCLE

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3. At 1:31pm on 18 Aug 2008, ForeverMe wrote:
Some years ago my inlaws bought my husband and I a picnic set - a lovely rucksack that came with four plastic plates, two knives, two forks, two spoons, a butter knife, a small chopping board, a corkscrew, two plastic wine glasses and three tupperware containers. Since then we've been on innumerable picnics and we're still using the same kit. No need for disposable anything at all!

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4. At 1:37pm on 18 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
Hi Chris,

Non-Plastic Picnicking follows the trend of your topical blog. Waste-Free Picnicking is a more realistic goal. In this type plastic will play a part: containers, plates, cups etc.
All these items are reused and not part of the Use Once and Throw Away stuff which adds to landfill.

Any food waste should be taken home to be composted/fed to pets,birds/Bokashied.

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5. At 4:06pm on 18 Aug 2008, dragonsp wrote:
Good morning!

Another option may have been to embrace your new plastic cup: take it home and re-use it.

In addition to being re-used as, well, drinking cups, plastic cups can be a home for seeds that need to be started, a holder for small bits and pieces or craft supplies, a water-cup for icky paint brushes, or even the upper portion of a terrarium (if large enough).

Best of luck to you, Chris!

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6. At 5:26pm on 18 Aug 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:
Congratulations Chris, you are doing so well. It is hard to anticipate every contingency but we learn as we go on.

I want to share this. I do not consider all plastic to be bad just how we use/reuse it. However, sometimes things are way over packaged. I needed a mist bottle for my garden seedlings (my glass one got broken)so I thought to buy a large plastic one which could be used indefinitely. At my garden store, the plastic mist bottle was packaged inside of a plastic bag! WHY? This is ridiculous over- packaging. I didn't buy the bottle, as my awareness has been raised on this site about how much unnecessary plastic we can reduce.

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7. At 5:30pm on 18 Aug 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:
Note to Johnhcrf

I think we went under 90% this week toward Zero Waste!

However, I don't know if I can sustain that. My garden is producing very well, so I am not having to shop much. Less waste!

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8. At 5:44pm on 18 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#6,7aquarizonagal

Well done! Refuse over-packaging every time.

Under 90% is an excellent figure. Others will take heart from this since low waste figures can be achieved by anyone prepared to take up the challenge.

Do you have alternative markets where you can use home containers for your purchases? This would remove packaging altogether.

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9. At 7:30pm on 18 Aug 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:
Johnhrcf

Thanks, I do have alternate markets where I take my own containers. Here in the US we are so 'safety conscious' ,to a ridiculous degree in my opinion, that you might buy a glass jar of something, open the lid and find a plastic film sealing the top. Many food jars are also sealed with plastic film over the outside lid. I can't recycle this kind of plastic and I also cannot eliminate all of these products so that is where some of my waste occurs.

It seems as though nearly everything is packaged in some kind of plastic bag, as my example of the mist bottle. The awareness I have gotten here regarding unnecessary plastic is really helping me to reduce my waste even more.

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10. At 7:33pm on 18 Aug 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:
I will add that I spoke (nicely) to the garden store manager, explaining why I would not buy the mist bottle and suggesting that as a 'green' enterprise, he should reconsider his supplier of mist bottles.

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11. At 7:41pm on 18 Aug 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:
I read some of the previous posts from folks who have limited resources and I want to say that it is very possible to be 'green' without spending a lot of time and money. In fact, sometimes being green is cheaper than not.

For example, you do not have to purchase expensive green products for cleaning. White vinegar, baking soda, salt, rubbing alcohol and hydrogen peroxide are very inexpensive and will clean and disinfect nearly anything. I've been using these things for years.

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12. At 7:49pm on 18 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#9,10

Speaking to staff/managers is essential. Most staff I come across do not have the slightest idea what Zero Waste is. All you can do is fully explain why you want your purchases to be unpackaged and thank them for their cooperation.

I always enjoy emptying my bag back home and having nothing left but an empty bag. True Zero Waste.

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13. At 8:30pm on 18 Aug 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:
Johnhrcf

I agree that YOU may have Zero Waste at your house but what happens to the packaging that you have left behind?

You are making an important statement about reducing unnecessary packaging. I think that we should all be doing that but we also need to think about the packaging that we leave behind us.

In my area, most people are very understanding that I want to reduce waste so I have not encountered the problem you mentioned. The manager of my garden store expressed dismay that he had not considered this issue. I think that (kindly) raising awareness can be one of the most important things an individual can do toward reducing waste.

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14. At 11:10pm on 18 Aug 2008, Thatwitch wrote:
I've just sat through a repeat programme with Richard Dawkins prattling on about how great science is. WILL ALL THE CLEVER PEOPLE JUST TELL US WHAT TO DO TO SAVE THE PLANET! Sorry that is a childish seeming rant, but I'm desperate!

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15. At 02:05am on 19 Aug 2008, queenraj wrote:
Really enjoying your blog across the pond over here! I'm curious though why not try tiffins? They do it all the time in India. Many still do not have a plastic seal and come with a handy dandy spoon! As for the drinking cup situation, there are paper folded cups that one could find at a travel store. Sort of more for to take a pill. But at least something.

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16. At 03:47am on 19 Aug 2008, AustralianSusan wrote:
Wooden cutlery - Nooooo! Think of all the trees! Japan uses up many trees on wooden chopsticks - don't add to this problem!

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17. At 06:58am on 19 Aug 2008, serenstarbright wrote:

I have a daughter who is profoundly autistic and has a number of food obsessions and will only eat certain foods,even down to the brand or colour of crisp packets.
I have tried everything to stop this but to no avail so we are left with mounds of crisp packets and plastic waste that our local council does not recycle.
A few years ago I joined a campaign whereby were returned overly large used crisp packets to the manufacturers and the result of the campaign was a reduction in the size of the crisp packets.
I recycle as much as I can but I honestly feel that the ultimate answer is government action on the situation. I also feel that a countrywide campaign to return packaging that we can not recycle to the manufacturer will make the manufacturers more aware of public feeling.
Ultimately,certain councils are even considering charging us for waste that cannot be recycled being taken from our properties.Surely we as consumers need to address the situation now.

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18. At 07:14am on 19 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#13aquarizonagal

I do not leave packaging behind. Fresh food is presented unpackaged. If you provide a container or take without packaging you are not using the shop's packaging.

Another issue is how can you influence others to follow suit. The best an individual can do is to follow a strict routine and other staff/shoppers will notice and may join in.

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19. At 08:14am on 19 Aug 2008, metalhardrocker wrote:
I agree with other posters; it's a false premise. There's nothing wrong with plastic, it's just disposable plastic - or disposable anything - that's the problem.
Plastic can last millennia and that's fine if it's design allows it to be used for many years, and then to be recycled.

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20. At 08:56am on 19 Aug 2008, sjem01 wrote:
#14 Thatwich -

The programme last night was NOT Richard Dawkins prattling on about how great science is - it was actually the last of a very infomative series of programmes looking at "The Genius of Charles Darwin". It was aimed at showing how there are still people in the world who rally against his scientific findings surrounding evolution and natural selection. I for one am very much an 'evolutionist' if you wish to describe it this way and was amazed at the amount of opposition he found from those of faith and 'creationists'. May I suggest in future you do not watch such a programme just to moan about it....

Chris I have read your blog with interest and have to admit it has made me think about the amount of waste we have in my house and I have been looking into local recycling opportunities. Although these are not lacking - I do not have recylcling picked up from my house by our local council, in fact I get my rubbish picked up twice a week as we live in the town centre....but it is just a big wheely bin where everything from the whole block of flats goes....

In order for us to recylce we would need to have several bins in the house for each different type of waste and then DRIVE to either the council tip or the TESCO recycling point in order to recycle these items....does make me wonder if it actually worth it??

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21. At 08:59am on 19 Aug 2008, nicecolbart wrote:
Don't forget a lot of so called 'extra' packaging is there to protect consumers.

Extra seals are fitted to clearly show if products have been tampered with in any way.
In the past there have been cases when products have been tainted with bleach and other chemicals, either to hold ransom to the companies (Distributer/supermarket/producer).

Just recently though they seem to be more relaxed, local Squeezed juices in Tetra Boxes, used to have an inner plastic ring pull, after opening the screw top. They have started removing this and improving the screw top to display any tampering.

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22. At 10:46am on 19 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#21nicecolbart

This is where local shopping wins hands down. I can buy veg/fruit unpackaged and fresh rather than the landfill mountain that comes with some superstore purchases. The unthinking chain of waste has to change to a sustainable model with minimal production and waste. When will the packaging industry take full responsibility for the waste their processes produce.

Until they change I urge all consumers, where they are able to, to take up the Zero Waste challenge. Taking personal responsibility for this issue is a blow for a better future.

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23. At 10:55am on 19 Aug 2008, Mishaela wrote:
I read this blog daily and althought I think Chris is doing well I can see she doesn't have much experience with "natural life".
From all the daily problems, all the struggles while shopping or even having cuppa at work there's clearly seen that till now Chris was one of those people who can be put as a good example of consumer society individuals.

Following few comments from today's issue - I also think Chris have never been camping before or never went to a romantic picnic..... Otherwise she would know there is no need for disposable table wear. Why? People don't go only once in their life, so why to dispose it after using? Reuse = better choice!

And with all the respect most of the people nowadays are so unbelievably lazy that they go to a picnic by car instead of taking a walk. So they can't even complain about carrying stuff when get proper picnic set which is little bit heavier but still great.

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24. At 12:24pm on 19 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
johnhcrf:

reading your other posts (with AJ) is quite interesting. On one hand you are very passionate about the ZeroWaste issue, but on the other, it seems that you will not change your current practice because it is what is working for you. Fair enough, however, as aquarizonagal pointed out, we can achieve near-to zerowaste at home, but still it does not mean that we don't leave waste behind. Also I like her suggestion #10. Hence, why I am so eager into convincing you that your efforts should be applied to the local councils to provide everyone with recycling options and the building of proper facilities. The moment businessess begin to be charged (like I am) for having extra bins, they will make the adequate financial choices to avoid such waste.

To aquarizonagal: I recently spent time in the US and I was very fustrated with all the waste produced, especially concerning food. Even though I shopped at an organic store (my salvation in terms of good health and price). However I was really disappointed to find that the "green/healthy' stores often oversell paper, even worse. It also seems that the West is more wastefull than the Northeast. But what is the situation with recycling in the US?

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25. At 12:37pm on 19 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
Wax wrapped cheese? Presumably made from parafin, not tallow or beeswax, and therefore effectively plastic? Likewise 'waxed paper'.. waxed with what?

I agree with #21. A lot of the 'extra' packing is to deter maniacs putting razor blades into baby food and to prevent shoplifters emptying packets into their pockets.

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26. At 12:39pm on 19 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
Apologies- I seem to have imagined the waxed paper, although it is a reasonable point. Is the shiny coating on many paper plates compatible with decomposition?

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27. At 1:13pm on 19 Aug 2008, aspidermonkey wrote:
#23 - Mischaela, regarding your comments.

I think this is the whole purpose of Chris doing the experiment and not somebody else. If Chris was already a person who was oriented towards, as you call it 'natural life', then her blog would not show us how people with 'consumer society' orientations can make real change.

There is no point in preaching to the converted, which in my experience, is what lots of smug eco-warrior-types seem to do, only to further alienate our cause.

The bins in my local park are overflowing after every sunny picnic day. So, the discussion about non-disposable / re-usable alternatives for picnicking is thus very valuable, and I'm glad that Chris' actions and blog has encouraged it.

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28. At 1:30pm on 19 Aug 2008, CurlySteve wrote:
I'm wondering if the 'wax-wrapped' cheese was indeed the same wax-wrapped Lancashire cheese Chris told us about on 3rd August?

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29. At 1:54pm on 19 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
"The bins in my local park are overflowing after every sunny picnic day. So, the discussion about non-disposable / re-usable alternatives for picnicking is thus very valuable, and I'm glad that Chris' actions and blog has encouraged it."

So what you're saying is that your council is failing to provide recycling bins at a site where a large amount of potentially recylcable rubbish is concentrated and collection would be extremely quick and cheap?

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30. At 2:05pm on 19 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#24hydroscooby

I do not leave waste behind. Choosing loose food items only and putting into containers. Where is the waste?

Councils need to do more, I agree 100%. This might need WRAP or Government intervention. It is a countrywide problem outside the scope of 1 individual. Business is a challenge as well.

I , and other Zero Waste enthusiasts, will continue to ask others to take-up the challenge. Consumers can force the necessary changes. The more people join in the bigger the push for change.

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31. At 2:09pm on 19 Aug 2008, Mishaela wrote:
#27 aspidermonkey: You're right that this is a good idea and any effort like this should be appreciated and hopefully more people will wake up and start with thinking about the environment and all the possibilities of how to improve it's state.
However, I'm worried that most people (and it's from my experience) will join this "trial" with excitement BUT after they find out that their old consume lives without worrying about the waste etc. were so easy and comfortable they will go back...

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32. At 2:13pm on 19 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
"I'm worried that most people (and it's from my experience) will join this "trial" with excitement BUT after they find out that their old consume lives without worrying about the waste etc. were so easy and comfortable they will go back..."

I agree.

The government and businesses have two options then: they either make it easier to recycle and reduce excessive waste in stores (a carrot) or they'll tax the hell out of us and reduce bin collections even more (a stick).

Why do I anticipate a big stick heading our way?

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33. At 2:18pm on 19 Aug 2008, Mishaela wrote:
#29 Peter_Sym:

"""So what you're saying is that your council is failing to provide recycling bins at a site where a large amount of potentially recylcable rubbish is concentrated and collection would be extremely quick and cheap?"""

Good one! Speaking for myself (I said it already another day) - not only their council is failing to provide recycling bins.

I contacted my local council 3x (!) last year and asked them to provide green and black boxes for out block with 9 flats (nearest recycling bins are 15-20mins walk and that's only charity clothes and glass) - I'm not a car owner (don't need it as commuting to work in the City is easier and cheaper by train) and don't have time to make long "recycling walks".

Got 1 answer saying they'll provide some this April. Still have none! After months of waiting and storing washed tins, plastic milk and wine bottles I decided to ditch all in our only one container.
It wasn't my first choice but if the council (or our famous goverment) can't be bothered why should I? If they want us to recycle they HAVE to provide some facilities for us.

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34. At 2:24pm on 19 Aug 2008, Mishaela wrote:
#32

Nothing but agreement!

Speaking about recycling and not giving us the opportunity to do so is nothing but nonsense.

If I had a house with a garden I could at least grow my own veg, put leftovers and biodegradable waste to compost etc... but I don't. I am asking too much when I want recycling bins for our house? NO! So why is it so difficult to get some?

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35. At 2:38pm on 19 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
I live on a little housing estate built on an old factory- its a sort of cloverleaf of cul-de-sacs with 8 2 bed terraced houses around a central parking area. We have to pull our wheelie bins to the end of the parking space for pick-up anyway and there is no reason whatsoever that the council can't install a couple of big 4 castor-style recycling bins there but they've refused several times as its 'financially unviable'????

My garden is about 12 foot square so adequate for a sitting out in summer and growing a few herbs, but its brown field and only has a couple of inches of soil over rubble, so I don't need or have space for a composter.

I do have a car but I don't see why I should have to drive to the local sainsburys to get rid of my recycle-able waste, especially as the facilities there are always stuffed to bursting point.

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36. At 2:45pm on 19 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#24hydroscooby

Further to the previous reply. I am taking an interest in several things elsewhere:

1. Mrs Green of MyZeroWaste has good contact with her local council. The councillor involved is interested in our Zero Waste. This could be a basis for other council activity.

2. We are looking into recycling opportunities particularly in relation to plastic waste recycling eg ploythene.

3. Daniel Burd's experiment on plastic bag waste may be the basis for a home landfill kit.

There is plenty of useful activity.

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37. At 3:13pm on 19 Aug 2008, aspidermonkey wrote:
#29 - PeterSym:

I agree - the council should be providing adequate recycling in such a popular pinic spot.

But what I was trying to say is: the most important point that we as consumers can learn from this blog discussion is that we can REDUCE the amount of disposable material in our lives too. Reusable picnic-items (rather than paper/wood disposable alternatives to plastic) is one very easy start.

Yes, councils should provide adequate recycling services for homes and public spaces. Yes, there should be corporate responsibility in packaging reduction. And Yes, I as an individual consumer should give careful thought to my purchasing choices. It is not an 'either or' situation.

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38. At 3:29pm on 19 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
There's economy of scale issues: a flick of a pen at TESCO HQ or more local council could do far more than the actions of a 1000 consumers. Where I live is very heavily populated with students... they drink a lot and most don't have cars. A big glass recycling bin at the end of each street would make FAR more impact than any action we took as individuals. However as I stated its 'not financially viable' whereas apparently cutting our bin collections by 50% but not providing local alternatives IS.

The other worry is what I call arnies zero emmision HUMVEE scenario. He fills up with hydrogen generated from burning coal in Nevada so although he's emitting nothing but water vapour in california he's actually pumping more CO2 into the air (over the border) than if he just ran the damn thing using diesel. The moral of this is that sometimes producing a little waste locally is better than producing huge amounts out of sight somewhere lese and using a plastic bottle rather than a glass one may not be the worst thing in the world given the relative energies needed to make glass alternatives.

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39. At 6:05pm on 19 Aug 2008, AdeJones wrote:
#38 - Tesco are already working in this area, and are rolling out across the UK 'front of store recycling'.

Check out http://tiny.cc/yRMis for detail.

Your point about 'fake green initiatives' (AKA 'Arnie's HumVee') is also well made. It's a policy derived from the basis of much emotion and little real evidence. Arnie clearly needs a lesson in lifecycle assessment...

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40. At 6:17pm on 19 Aug 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:
#24Hydroscouby

To answer your question: It depends on where you live, some recycling is excellent and some is practically non-existent. It is often a matter of county or municipality rather than state by state or region.

As far as food waste, I've seen a lot of that but we have an organic garden and produce a lot of our own food. Believe me I don't waste food! After you sow seeds, weed, tend etc. you want to eat the results, not throw them in a waste bin. My dear one and I were laughing recently about the season we planted too much cabbage. We ate cabbage nearly every day for weeks. We gave away as much as we could but I should write a cook book entitled '101 Ways to Prepare Cabbage!'

My organic market discourages all forms of packaging by giving a small cash rebate for providing your own containers, cloth bags or totes.

We ARE a wasteful country but many of us do our part to 'Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.' We
are old enough to remember the years following the Depression. The mantra in our house is 'Waste not, want not!'

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41. At 6:38pm on 19 Aug 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:
#38Petersym

Well said!

I read recently that by keeping my older car (about 30mpg) rather than trading it for a hybrid, my 'Carbon Footprint' is actually smaller because the energy necessary to produce the hybrid is large in comparison to the minimal driving that I do. I've calculated that I only fill my gas tank, on average, six times per annum so my own footprint is rather small.

There are people who consider themselves to be GREEN because they are quick to point out the faults of others. However, I have seen these same people do very wasteful things. I think that the key is balanced living and trying to do whatever small things that we can do to walk softly on our own piece of this earth.

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42. At 7:43pm on 19 Aug 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:
To#17serenstarbright

Just a short message of encouragement:

That in your busy and challenging days you would also have a concern for environmental issues, should be a huge message to those of us who have a much easier life and take so much for granted.

Blessings on you and your child.

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43. At 8:42pm on 19 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
Been away from the PC for a few days but have read through to catch up. I must say I am very encouraged by the recent 'balance' to the debate. Both sides are putting across their cases very well and most, with the exception of a few are prepared to listen.

johnhcrf: when are you going to listen to what experts in their field are telling you about the need for an appreciation and understanding of the wider environmental debate. The world is not black and white! Instead we are left with varuing murky shades of grey that normally change colour when you look at them closely enough. Get out from behind your barricade and actually do some debating.

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44. At 8:48pm on 19 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#43

A plastic packaging person, like yourself, should realise that your wasteful processes contribute massively to landfill? When are you going to change?

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45. At 9:20pm on 19 Aug 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:
#43Idontmuchbut

Johnhcrf is very passionate in his beliefs but can't we all respect that? He is trying very hard to send a strong message about our waste issues.

I agree that there are "murky shades of grey" but we also need to honor those who are militant about raising our awareness of all these issues.

We all need to work together to protect, preserve and nurture this earth for ourselves and our children/grandchildren.

We do need to heed the advice of those who have scientific knowledge regarding our use of energy to recycle, and/or waste management.

This forum has been so positive for sharing simple ideas for change and also for learning more about the best way to deal with plastics. Plastic is a part of our lives and it IS here to stay!

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46. At 9:22pm on 19 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
THIS THREAD

Interestingly this new balance is actually leading, via this thread to the very crux of the issue:-

* The 'postcode lottery' that is UK recycling.

Let's start with some facts:-

1. EU Landfill Targets are set and measured by weight (tonnes)

2. UK Govt thus follows same measures, therefore repeating the same fundamental mistake as above.

3. Local Authorities (LA's) then have to perform vs. weight based tonnage diversion targets. Thus the issue is further compounded.

"So what's the issue with tonnage based targets of measurement", I hear you say......

Well, if LA performance is solely measured on tonnes diverted where do you think they are going to focus their efforts and stretched resources - straight at the 'heavy' recyclable items like glass, tin and paper etc. This seems logical until you think actually the higher volume recyclable material is none of these, it's plastic.

However plastic is a victim of its own success in being versatile, cheap and yet fantastically light in weight. Councils have to collect a whole heap of plastic (by volume) to collect a tonne, compared to a relatively small heap of paper say per tonne.

Over-arching this fundamental issue is a distinct (alleged) lack of resource. "We haven't got enough money", "we need more money from govt to improve this", "we need more money from business", "we need to put up council tax, again". Well I ask you where are the hundreds of billions paid into govt through the PRN scheme / packaging obligations etc? Where has that money gone? Where has the money paid by supermarkets and packaging convertors in business rates gone?

More importantly why can leading light example LA's do it and other laggards can't?

Some LA's collect almost everything. They work in partnership with other LA's to fund, build and operate state of the art facilities that offer residents lucky enough to live in those areas some of the best recycling facilities in the country. Others cannot be bothered and instead choose to hide behind a local govt blame culture of "funding", "bad retailers" and "excessive packaging" yet see fit to threaten residents for the items they "cannot recycle". Where did the lack of facilities become the residents fault? How on earth do we decide to start taxing council tax payers for a lack of strategic direction and investment on the part of the LA? How can this be acceptable to anyone, other than the potty LA' sat signing it off through their own corrupt and ill managed processes?

These are the real issues with recycling. It's not about supermarkets not using "non-recyclable" packaging. More than 90% of supermarket packaging IS recyclable. You dont believe me, check out the LGA War On Waste studies. They claim only 70% is 'recyclable' however you take a look at the 30% they claim is not recyclable and you will see PP Trays, PET Trays, you'll see PP bottle caps and you will see LDPE / LLDPE / PP films. Every single one of those materials IS recyclable in the UK today. Councils are collecting them, recycling firms are crying out for the feedstock and end markets are ready to sell the recycled goods back in. Dont tell me they are not recyclable, dont tell residents they are not recyclable - it is lie!

Instead let's have some central and strategic direction (govt) for LA's. Let's have strict material / format specific standardisation of recycling. If it does need more money / funding, let's find it. The retailers and producers in this country pay more money per annum towards recycling and business rates than any other EU country, however I am certain if they knew the money was being correctly and transparently targeted to LA's / recycling they would pay up tomorrow.

You want to do something - start a petition on the Downing Street website, write to your LA, write to your MP, demand to know why the next door LA can and does do a better job for their residents. Challenge LA's back when they start fining you for binning the stuff they should actually be collecting and recycling.

lecture over, sorry..........

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47. At 9:50pm on 19 Aug 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:
#46Idontmuchbut

Your "lecture" was totally excellent!

I don't live in the UK but I sure hope someone on this blog was paying attention to what you posted and will join you in asking for change and an accounting of your tax money. We have some of the same problems here in the US. They only way to change that is to speak out. Good for you!

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48. At 11:04pm on 19 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
You say what you see.
I'm close enough to know, believe me.

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49. At 09:05am on 20 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
#30:

The waste is there because you buy products that were packaged before getting to the store or market. I don't believe that the veggies and fruits (especially berries) have travelled in lorries without packaging. I could be wrong if you buy locally grown, even then that would have to be almost 'next door'. It doesn't matter if you or the market dispose of the packaging. It only affects your guilt, but the waste is still there, unrecycled. The cardbox has left a lot of waste behind, from tree felling, chemicals used to produce it, and of course the plastic which it was in when it was sold ends up in landfill.

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50. At 09:07am on 20 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
Precisely because of this, is that I push for Local councils to do their part. We pay enough taxes. In Germany for example, they have an excellent recycling programme, and they have stuck to it. Why is it that we cannot have this here? Just 4 bins, different colours. Equally they could invest in sorting facilities too. But I think the 4 bin-option is better, as it instills a sense of responsibility in the community. Even supermarkets have to properly dispose of their waste. This means when they unpack the produce, you know that you are really not leaving waste behind, that every process-resulting waste has will be recycled.

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51. At 09:07am on 20 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
Why are we not allowed to write the initials for United Kingdom? It was blocked for profanity :(

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52. At 09:33am on 20 Aug 2008, el_punkoid_nouveau wrote:
Come on - a plastic cup can be disposable, but that doesn't mean to say that it has to be disposed of! You can wash them out and reuse them, you can take them home and turn them into plant pots - I have frequently seen polystyrene cups in greenhouses!

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53. At 09:55am on 20 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#43: johnhcrf

"A plastic packaging person such as myself"

I am not a plastic packaging person. In my role I head up packaging for a very major organisation (which I am not at liberty to reveal). I deal with every single packaging format and material under the sun. I can assure i have no bias towards one material or another. I merely state the facts from all angles.

In terms of taking responsibility, I can assure we take packaging reduction very seriously indeed. I wish I could reveal to you just how seriously we take it and exactly what we are doing to reduce our usage. However this would clearly identify who I am and where I work.

I know it all sounds very cryptic but it is for the best that I remain anonymous within this debate, sorry.

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54. At 10:08am on 20 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#45: aquarizonagal

"Johnhcrf is very passionate in his beliefs but can't we all respect that? He is trying very hard to send a strong message about our waste issues".

I have nothing at all against passionate expression of beliefs and i fully respect anyone who takes the time to actually understand and contribute to this valuable debate.

However the "strong message anout our waste issues" that johnhcrf is sending out is a rather one dimensional and totally unrealistic take on debate. He fails to even acknowledge that packaging adds any value or contributes any benefit at all to wider society and waste minimisation. In his world all packaging is BAD and therefore demonised and boycotted.

I have explained the role of packaging in endless detail, as have others. A number of us have also tried to get the wider environmental and waste issues on the table for discussion. So far johnhcrf has chosen to demonstarte nothing but a blinkered lack of appreciation for these issues and wider challenges.

I am all for 'zero waste' and respect any individual for wanting to pursue this commendable goal. However they should not under any circumstances pursue 'zero waste to landfill' at the detriment of the wider environment. That's all I ask.

So far johnhcrf has failed to demonstrate he has taken any views, opinion, facts or comment on board from any contributer other than himself.

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55. At 10:57am on 20 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#54

A sustainable system where plastic production is minimal and plastic waste is also minimal is what I and others would like to see. Compare this to the trumpeted present. The chain of waste adds huge amounts to landfill every year, and will do so for evermore, unless their attitude changes.

I do not use your packaging waste by choosing to shop local. The produce is fresher and my food waste is almost zero.
Surely this is a better way.

Change will be difficult and before this can happen the packaging industry must admit its culpability.

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56. At 11:06am on 20 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
"I am all for 'zero waste' and respect any individual for wanting to pursue this commendable goal. However they should not under any circumstances pursue 'zero waste to landfill' at the detriment of the wider environment. That's all I ask.

So far johnhcrf has failed to demonstrate he has taken any views, opinion, facts or comment on board from any contributer other than himself."

I've got to agree. I suspect strongly that johnhcrf is quite well off financially and can afford to pay extra to help support his crusade. Many cannot. I work extremely long hours and as a result cannot shop 'locally' as butchers etc are open 9-5 Mon-Fri.

Even on a reasonable salary myself I could not afford a totally free-range organic food diet and HAVE to use supermarkets. That means having to accept packaging.

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57. At 11:33am on 20 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#56Peter_Sym

I, too, shop in superstores and they are useful enterprises. There, I choose ZeroWastePackaging. This allows purchase of unpackaged items: apples, bananas, cabbage, potatoes, tomatoes etc. I cannot purchase plastic bound items so it limits my choices.

I am not a rich person but a person who sees the problem of this Use Once and Throw Away setup.

If you cannot shop local, particularly for meat/fish, the use of home freezer containers would achieve Zero Waste. There are meat/fish counters in superstores, so that is possible.

Butchers/fishmongers are always open on Saturday. Is this news to you?

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58. At 11:43am on 20 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
Ours isn't. The one independent butcher within walking distnance of home is 9-5 Mon Fri. We live in the centre of a city and there's a huge market as an annex to one of the shopping centres that has effectively shut down all the local greengrocers etc (well... they simply shut up shop and opened a stall there instead) but even by mid-afternoon the choice of food is minimal and again its locked up on Saturday.

I also select fresh loose fruit and veg at supermarkets for the simple reason that you get a big bag of tomatoes (and yes it is a plastic bag) for less than 5 tomatoes on a plastic tray. However the majority of foodstuffs in a supermarket cannot be bought without plastic packing- cornflakes come in plastic bags inside the box, milk comes in plastic of plasticised card etc. I haven't seen a glass milk bottle since I was a student and in any case unless there are collection/recycle facilities glass is worse than plastic. The Romans landfilled enough glass 2000 years ago and its still around now!

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59. At 11:47am on 20 Aug 2008, Mishaela wrote:
#50

Totaly agree with the 4 (or more) bin option mentionet in this comment.

It's not only Germany. More middle-europian countries do the same.
In Czech for example they have recycling bins in almost every street with huge blocks (40 and more flats) big different-coloured containers are provided for paper, plastic, tins, white and coloured glass separately.

And if you live in your own house there is another benefit when doing your part on recycling (I heard it's just a trial now tho) you get some of your taxes back if you put your rubbish separately in bags provided by local council outside your garden, so they can pick it up for recycling.
That's what I call a great idea!

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60. At 11:54am on 20 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
This is precisely the point. Plastic in packaging or other forms have become an essential part of our society today. Even the 'local shops' use packaging to store our food and johnrcf has chosen to ignore this. Every morning they unpack it and put it 'fresh' on the stand, where he is free to shop with his cloth bag or bamboo basket, as I don't believe the air inside a 'local shop, or lori' is any different than the air in my house, which makes my unpacked organic tomatoes hardly survive after 3 days. I would be happy to hear an alternative for the produce to get from 'farm to the local market' without plastic packaging, and not paper. let's not forget paper comes out of trees, and trees are essential to our environment.

Of course my point (as well as others) risk becoming irrelevant, if we are talking about GM foods and/or heavy pesticide use. However, the wider environmental impact (on soil, water, and surrounding wildlife) outweights any benefits from using adequate plastic packaging.

#54: you could have just posted a link for our viewing, and not mentioned that you work for them ;)

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61. At 11:59am on 20 Aug 2008, green_bob wrote:
#46 idontmuchbut

Please can you let me know the name and location of the recycling facility that accepts post-consumer PP and PET trays?

I work for a plastics recycling company and am not aware of any such facility in the UK.

When this material is collected, it is being exported for recycling.

Incidentally we invest our PRN income into the development of new equipment.

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62. At 12:05pm on 20 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#58Peter_Sym.

Good to see that you are taking some responsibility for avoiding packaging. It can be done.
Of course, I buy milk in plastic jugs which are recycled. That is not Use Once and Throw Away!

A related issue is Christmas packaging, another source of enormous waste. A fellow Zero Waste enthusiast mentioned it first, so I can expand on it. The best kind of packaging for toys, gadgets, dolls, books, sweets etc is the type which can be reused/returned, a sustainable type.
Can the packaging industry offer this type of packaging and advertise as such? Contacting the big toy sellers might be worth doing to check the potential.

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63. At 12:14pm on 20 Aug 2008, Mishaela wrote:
I say that packaging (either paper, plastic, glass, wax.....etc.) is INEVITABLE!

Eventho products can be sold loose. They're packed during transport to the shop anyway.

But I strongly disagree with OVERPACKAGING.
Too much is too much and only silly people can accept and be happy with the fact that many products are wrapped in layers and layers just to look pretty without having any other impact on the product itself.

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64. At 12:17pm on 20 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
Here are some interesting links:

http://www.zwia.org/index.html

http://www.zwinc.org/

and the scary note:

" These Zero Waste Business Principles are intended to be a living document. Comments and suggestions are welcome..."

and the small print:
"1. Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design program of the U.S. Green Building Council, www.usgbc.org"

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65. At 12:21pm on 20 Aug 2008, Mishaela wrote:
#60

" let's not forget paper comes out of trees, and trees are essential to our environment."

Yes indeed.

That's why I'm still bothered with the fact that someone pays astronomical amount of money to continue with destruction of Amazonian rainforests - THE LUNGS OF THE EARTH.
Not only is it being destroyed but it's being destroyed with no obvious reason. Trees are just burned down without further use (don't agree with destroying of such a huge forests for any reason anyway).

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66. At 12:39pm on 20 Aug 2008, ajs_dy wrote:
"let's not forget paper comes out of trees, and trees are essential to our environment." -- hydroscooby

Yes, but where there is (1) private ownership of land and (2) a dense population, not replanting trees as they are cut is economic suicide. Softwoods are a cash crop like any other; they just have a longer growing cycle than most.

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67. At 12:57pm on 20 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#64hydroscooby

Great links to the world movement of Zero Waste. One comment I liked was - " to keep spreading the good word".

Zero Waste is more limited here but the numbers are growing. If everyone took up their own challenge to this great end, avoiding blaming others as an excuse for inertia, the sooner permanent change would occur.

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68. At 1:01pm on 20 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
#65. The lungs of the earth are actually the photosynthetic plankton in the sea. Mature forests are virtually carbon neutral... the tree takes in a lot of carbon as it grows but once it reaches maturity it produces almost as much CO2 and it absorbs. Indeed the rotting vegetation on the ground of any jungle pumps out tons of methane which is 20x more potent a greenhouse gas than CO2

Sustainable forestry is a much better option even that 'wild trees'- grow trees to maturity, cut them down, replant and use the wood for something that will be around for a long time, like furniture or houses. Paper mills are envriomentally worse than nuclear power plants (actually a LOT worse) and can kill rivers. Wood products can often be the best option but sometimes they're not. Its all a case of looking at the whole picture and comparing all the options.

#62. I suspect it isn't Tesco that fills up your plastic milk jug for you.

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69. At 1:06pm on 20 Aug 2008, lionHeretic wrote:
I think a lot of people are missing the point of the blog. This is an examination of how much we use and rely plastic in every day things and situations. With the blogger going through various situations it becomes clear just how hard it is to go without plastic, I think this is better than simply stating the amount of plastic used in tons per person as it allows us, the reader, to relate to real life scenarios.

I certainly applaude the motives and I hope to live by the mantra of reduce, reuse, recycle more and more.

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70. At 1:26pm on 20 Aug 2008, Mishaela wrote:
#68

The biggest issue is that many trees are cut down without replanting and this in just WRONG.

Btw - when talking about CO2 and methane - cows are producing much more than cars! In other words - cows are seriously polluting our planet. NOT a joke!

And to the sea plankton - "thanks" all the climate changes (like rains where used to be dry or winds where used to be only light breeze) lots of the sand from deserts is being blown away - to the ocean which is affecting the sea vegetation and plankton.

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71. At 1:27pm on 20 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
#69 If thats the case its an odd approach to it. The whole angle of reducing waste at all costs rather overwhelms the main aim. As you say we DO rely on plastic for for everything. My concern is that plastic is made from oil, oil is a limited resource and needed to make just about everything that keeps us alive, starting with most of our medicines.

Burning a gallon of oil to make a wooden toothbrush (a debate from a few weeks back that I probably shouldn't stir up again) to save 5 mls of oil being turned into polythene is madness. Equally burning a gallon of petrol to drive to a farmers market to buy a paper wrapped steak rather than walk round the corner to tesco for one in a plastic tray is equally crazy. Plastic is simply one oil based product we use and focusing on that to the total detriment of all else makes no sense and is possibly MORE damaging that doing nothing at all.

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72. At 1:31pm on 20 Aug 2008, Mishaela wrote:
#69

I agree that experience something on ourselves is 100% bette than reading about it.

What I don't think is that we can live totaly 100% plastic free life therefore the REDUCE REUSE RECYCLE motto should become a lifestyle.

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73. At 1:32pm on 20 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
termites produce nearly as much as cows too. Actually this is all an example of my joined up thinking. The arianne rocket base in Guyiana is powered by hydroelectric which should be a good thing right? In actual fact the flooded forest floor and the dead material piled up behind the dam rot and produce so much methane that it would have been less enviromentally damaging to build a coal fired station instead!

People saying 'hydro = good, coal = bad' are simply wrong in this particular scenario which is why I want everyone to stop focusing on the very end stage of everything.

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74. At 1:38pm on 20 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
#67: They are truly good links. I tried searching for some in Europe from the international page, but they were not available. However, I posted the links to highlight the fact that a majority of the ZeroWaste movement is a part of a business, that sells green cones, and bokashi, along with other green services.

It is a business: "The Only In My Backyard? program is available to communities exclusively through Zero Waste, Inc. The program offers homeowners the means to easily and cost-effectively divert 100% of their food scraps and yard trimmings safely on their own property. It offers municipalities a means of achieving 100% diversion of organic materials from 1- to 3-unit residences without costly curbside collection." http://www.zwinc.org/green_cones.html

I don't think I have enough room to describe what is wrong with this sentence. So let me try to summarize this:

1. The environment should not be for sale.

2. going green should not be a life-style choice, where we are suckered into paying money or becoming part of a 'comunity'

3. Costly curbside? Well why do we pay taxes? I want my taxes to be invested in curb side green collection, coloured bins, recycling facilities, health, education.... Or is it too much to ask my government to provide me with 4 couloured bins (10 euros each?)

4. Homeowners? Safe disposal? Well what would exactly be unsafe about separating trash, plastic, water bottles, and composting? And how would it be unsafe if the local council provided the collection of these?

5. Zero Waste, Inc? It is a registered company with probably registered trademarked 'green cones' ?

The Zero waste movement has taken a business approach to a serious environmental problem today. They are not encouraging us to be greener and environmentally friendly. They want us to buy into their philosophy while they make a profit out of putting Waste Management, and recycling research out of business.

All of their suggestions can be applied at each comunity through the government Waste Management programs, the only different would be that the 'backyard' would be a field far from my backyard, paid by our taxes, and would target everyone, everywaste.

#68: You are so wrong about trees, trust me. Trees and forests are the single most effective sinks of CO2. To confirm this, you can google for some scientific evidence in scholar.google.

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75. At 1:44pm on 20 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
oops I meant to say that they are not encouraging us to be greener and environmentally friendly just because of environmental altruism...

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76. At 1:48pm on 20 Aug 2008, Mishaela wrote:
#73

as was said before - things are not just black and white and that's true.

Something obviously "bad" can be at the end less harmful than so called eco-friendly options that need much more energy before can be created or brought to effect.

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77. At 1:52pm on 20 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
#74 "You are so wrong about trees, trust me. Trees and forests are the single most effective sinks of CO2. To confirm this, you can google for some scientific evidence in scholar.google."

No I'm not. Effectively all the dry mass of the tree is carbon. The carbon cycle is very simple chemistry. As long as the tree keeps getting heavier its taking up carbon. Once the tree stops gaining weight its more or less carbon neutral. Trees produce carbon dioxide 24 hrs a day but only fix it for 12 hrs. respiration more or less equals photosynthesis. Thats why the CO2 levels in the atmosphere have remained more or less constant for millions of years. If forests fixed significantly more than they produced there wouldn't be any CO2 in the atmosphere at all.

Growing trees are great carbon sinks, adult trees aren't and there is very little growth in mature rainforest as the big trees block out the light reaching the forest floor. You only get new trees in a rainforest growing where an old tree has fallen down. A fast growing spruce plantation in Norway is far more effective a sink than a clump of 400 year old mahogany trees.

That doesn't mean I think we should cut down the rain forests- quite the opposite but there are many people in the US, starting with the white house and working down who have a political motive for exageratting the carbon sink benefits of forests as its worth carbon credits.

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78. At 1:58pm on 20 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#77Peter_Sym

Sustainable forestry which the wooden toothbrush suppliers employ is a good thing.

That is great news. While I am brushing my teeth with the wooden wonder, I dream of the Zero Landfill contribution. No more plastic waste!

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79. At 2:07pm on 20 Aug 2008, Mishaela wrote:
#78

Or you can dream while chewing herbs :))
There is less energy included in planting and growing herbs for chewing (cleaning teeth) than it's in producing and transporting wooden brushes :)

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80. At 2:15pm on 20 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#79

Please dont upset my dreams with unrealistic alternatives.

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81. At 2:44pm on 20 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
#78. Sort of. I'm still unconvinced that the extra energy needed to make a short term disposable product from wood compared to the tiny amount needed to make a plastic version makes it a greener version. You need a LOT of oil to cut down and process wood.

The best use for wood is housing as built properly its a very good insulator and a wooden house looked after properly should last a lifetime or more. The energy needed to make good thick planks won't be too far off that needed to make bricks and cement.

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82. At 2:50pm on 20 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
#77. I was referring to your #68 post in which you state:

"Sustainable forestry is a much better option even that 'wild trees'- grow trees to maturity, cut them down, replant and use the wood for something that will be around for a long time, like furniture or houses."

In this regard you are wrong about trees, they are effective sinks of CO2, and for the overall environment, in that, they also shelter wildlife and other plants that would otherwise not grow. The forests need to be preserved for various environmental issues. Your previous post sounded (read) as if you wanted to chop down forests....

......so that johnhcrf could grow his herbs for chewing ;)

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83. At 3:15pm on 20 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
#82. I've explained why forests aren't especially good sinks. Firstly they don't absorb that much CO2 and secondly when they die they rot and release it all again. If we're really unlucky they die and rot in wet slightly anearobic conditions and release the carbon as methane which is 20 times more potent than CO2. At best they're temporary stores of CO2 for a decade or two. A plank built into a house is a store potentially for centuries. There are plenty of timber framed houses in York that are storing CO2 that was last a gas when Henry VIII was a boy.

Forests are valuable for exactly the reasons you state plus two more important ones: they encourage rainfall in those locations and they hold the soil in place. Cut down forests and you get desert.

What I suggest is cutting down small areas of forest and planting more trees in their place. Sustainable forestry, not slash and burn of the jungle.

The worlds lungs are the oceans... ocean covers 80% of the surface of the earth and most of that has photosynthetic plankton near the surface. That fixes Co2 then when it dies it sinks, is covered by sediment and the carbon trapped. the carbon trapped this way millions of years ago is still down there- its called oil. A big mahogany tree with an orang-utan in it may be photogenic but its less valuable than plankton. Mess with that and we ARE dead.

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84. At 3:20pm on 20 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#81

A sustainably produced wooden toothbrush is an excellent alternative to the never ending production of landfill waste incorporated into the plastic toothbrush, including the One Use and Throw Away (to landfill) plastic packaging waste.
A sustainable plastic toothbrush would be a better choice but I do not see it coming anytime soon.

I aim to send a home binbag every 4-5 years as my personal contribution to Zero Waste. What will your contribution be to that great cause?

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85. At 3:33pm on 20 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
Never underestimate capitalism. If there's money in a product someone will produce it and cash in. Toyota don't make prius's because they care about the enviroment (in fact I don't think they're an especially green product anyway but thats an other debate) but because they want to turn a profit.

A sustainable plastic toothbrush is a neat marketing gimick and could sell well.

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86. At 3:37pm on 20 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
#83: Chopping forests is never a good idea...you can also use different land for sustainable forestry. Leave the orang-utan his tree where he is happy.

johnhcrf:

Here is another great document (pdf).

http://www.britischebotschaft.de/en/embassy/environment/pdf/background_waste1.pdf

"Domestic and commercial packaging waste is collected and recycled under a separate system organised by the company DSD... In 2000, 77% of all packaging was recycled: glass 82%, paper and cardboard 77%, tinplate 80%, aluminium 83%, plastic 61% and drinks cartons 56%. This exceeds targets in domestic and EU legislation."

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87. At 3:43pm on 20 Aug 2008, Mishaela wrote:
If tootbrushes would have to (for any reason) stay plastic they could be made "for life".
Plastic tootbrush with disposable head - everytime you need new one you just change the head (that could be made from natural bristles) as you do with razors - it would be definitely less plastic waste.

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88. At 3:45pm on 20 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
#86. I totally agree. There are huge chunks of Scotland that were forested that are now wasteland that should be reforested. Unfortunately forestry plantations and wildlife are not compatible.... a forest of pines for wooden toothbrush manufacture is not a wildlife sanctuary.

I never and would never suggest chopping down orangs homes! Not only do I like orang utangs the soil thats available once you have dropped a rain forest is almost useless and blows away within a year or two. At best you might get a year or twos cash crop, but after that the land is dead. best never to meddle in the first place.

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89. At 3:54pm on 20 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#89

The wooden toothbrush does not need unsustainable wood from Scotland.

You did not answer my Zero Waste question. Do you not recognise this world movement for sustainable change? It is growing day by day.

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90. At 4:12pm on 20 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
I didn't understand your zero waste question and the 'that great cause' sounded frankly frightening. What the hell is a home binbag anyway?

Neither did I suggest using 'unsustainable wood from Scotland' the exact opposite in fact: Scotland used to be covered by the Caledonian forest... huge tracts of Scots pine (not norwegian spruce). Contrary to popular belief much of it was cut down in the iron age and the last of it was used to make the masts for Nelson's ships. There's no 'unsustainable timber' left in Scotland!

Whats been left behind is barren wilderness (such as Rannoch moor) that stretches across most of the country. I used to camp in a small clump of caledonian pine (20 or 30 trees) where there used to be millions. I'm in favour of restoring a little of that forest (and restoring the bears and wolves that used to live in it) and funding it by turning a lot of the moorland into forestry plantation.

Forestry plantation is incompatible with wildlife as its a monoculture spaced to allow efficent harvesting and replanting. That is a sustainable forest in the real world. Your german made toothbrush comes from this sort of scheme. Frankly better to have locally grown Scottish wood than German unless you're going to walk to Duselfdorf and collect it in person!

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91. At 5:13pm on 20 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#90

You are frightened by Zero Waste. Let me guess, you are a plastic packaging type or work in a related industry.

What amount of waste do you send to landfill from your residence or work, via rubbish collections? Increasing numbers are reducing their waste amounts not in a frightening but in an enlightened way.

As for Scotland, I agree with bringing back native forests along with wolves to keep the deer in check. Deer take sustenance from growing trees.

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92. At 5:32pm on 20 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
#90. The fact that the trees were felled, and transported to a factory where it (spent a lot of oil, waste products, and chemicals) to make that toothbrush, and then again a lori/ship/flight (with high CO2 emissions) to be delivered at the store where he bought it for ~5 euros is a non-issue to him. What matters is that he is not having to dispose of anything other than the little plastic on the head!

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93. At 7:54pm on 20 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#92

Trying to demonise sustainably produced wooden toothbrushes will not work. You plastic packaging types must realise that change is coming to your unacceptable practices. It is not just me but a whole host of people, worldwide, who prefer to live in a sustainable low waste world.

Plastic will be part of this future but it must be a low production/low waste sustainable
process.

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94. At 10:32pm on 20 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
hohnhcrf

Your posts are taking on the incoherent ramblings of a cult leader. By your own admission you have been doing this for 20 weeks, not 20 years. I really think this 'freshness' to the debate adds to your naievity and lack of appreciation for the wider environmental issues with your approach to the debate. All you offer is the same rehashed views to every argument whilst ignoring expert facts and evidence.

How many times do people need to spell it out - the issue is not what goes to landfill. The issue is of sustainability and addressing three planet living.

I honestly laugh every time I read you post "one of those plastic packaging types". It's so black and white in your world, life must be so simple. Meanwhile the rest of us have to wade through the murky grey middle-ground of confusion, discovery and mistakes whilst balancing all the angles and trying to do the right thing.

What one this earth a wooden toothbrush has to do with a debate around sustainability, global warming and carbon sinks I dont know. It seems to have become a ridiculous icon of naievity and false belief.

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95. At 06:48am on 21 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#94

I ask all consumers to take up the Zero Waste challenge, including all you plastic packaging industry types who have a financial interest in the current wasteful situation.

Landfill is a massive problem. The sad thing is incineration is being pushed "on the fly" as the cheap answer to this problem.
This will allow you, and your like, to continue with the chain of waste you so admire from now 'til the end of time.

I say reduce waste. I have 1 binbag from the home going to landfill in 4-5years. That is a 99% reduction in waste. My contacts, every bit as knowledgable as I on the subject, are doing their bit too. Only the consumer has the power to change this horrendous situation by overcoming the vested interests in packaging waste.

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96. At 08:47am on 21 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
#91. I'm a cancer research scientist funded by charity working in a university research dept. Our waste is bio-hazard and is burnt in a hospital incinerator. If you want to recycle the plasticware I've grown Ecoli on be my guest.

On a list of my major worries the plastic packing industry wouldn't make top 50.

I'm not frightened by zero waste.. I'm frightened by eco-facists destroying our planet with their ill-informed views. My first target would be prince charles who claims GM crops cause climate change. Utter garbage which he can't prove. If we all switch to organic food then 3 or 4 of the 6 billion people on earth today will starve. We cannot feed the globe. The fact that you seem to think the destruction of the Aral sea is better than using a plastic bag says it all really. There's a big wide world beyond your (empty) dustbin.

You should REALLY study your language 'this glorious cause' is the langauage of every religious maniac ever to start a war and your idolisation of a wooden toothbrush is actually worrying me a lot. I truly think you've lost the balance of your mind over it and its become a totem, not a minor tool for cleaning your teeth.

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97. At 09:22am on 21 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#96

I see all you plastic packaging industry and fellow travellers are all singing from the same hymn sheet.

You have to realise that the public are joining in the Zero Waste (waste reduction) campaign. Trying to demonise my interest, which is non-financial!, will not work.

A sustainable future is the only option which will leave our panet in a fit state for
generations ahead. The current chain of waste must end.

Christmas is on the way and I think we should look to reduce the horendous waste mountain that arises from packaging excess.

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98. At 09:32am on 21 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
See what I mean- I tell you I'm a charity funded cancer research scientist and you again accuse me of being a plastic packaging salesman on some financially motivated crusade to stop you!

You're not prepared to accept or listen to to any statement that contradicts what you've already decided to be true.

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99. At 09:42am on 21 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#98

I am expressing the shared views of concerned consumers. We see the plastic packaging waste, food waste and recyclables which can end up in bins.

Plastic packaging waste is my last big target for removal. I have largely achieved this. What is needed now is for all consumers/householders to join-in and finish the job.

Government, councils, superstores, business, industry are lagging well behind. We the consumers must lead the charge towards a sustainable future.

Vested interests enjoy the status quo, as has been shown in the various negative posts. See them for what they are!

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100. At 09:48am on 21 Aug 2008, Mishaela wrote:
#95
"Only the consumer has the power to change this horrendous situation by overcoming the vested interests in packaging waste."

Let me just correct one mistake here:

Consumers have the CHOICE! We all can decide whether we want to choose eco-friendly option or take the risk with all the junk offered to us.

BUT it's the factory, distribution, goverment etc. who makes the decision what do we get to choose from.

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101. At 09:54am on 21 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#100

We cannot rely on these agencies to make the changes. The government is struggling with all the other problems. The others will not change of their own accord.

The only option, in present circumstances, is consumer action. If we do not buy the packaging waste they will drop it. Increasing numbers are joining in.

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102. At 10:07am on 21 Aug 2008, Mishaela wrote:
But that's what I'm saying.

I - as a consumer can choose. Because I DO care I'm trying to buy products that are loose or in as least packaging as I can find.

However, not everyone cares and people are lazy to do any minor changes, they're too comfortable with their lifestyle.

If only shops didn't provide those plastic bags for example, customers would be forced to bring their own bags. Of course I can hear the moaning ("what if I forget my bag", "it's too much hassle"....blah blah)
but we've done this years ago and noone complained, so I'm sure people would get use to it.

Think this would be good as a start for whole consumer society.

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103. At 10:09am on 21 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
"Vested interests enjoy the status quo, as has been shown in the various negative posts. See them for what they are!"

See them for what they are? What charity funded, underpaid scientists who reckon �1 for a plastic toothbrush is a better deal than �4 for a wooden one? Not least because the bristle design, not being limited to what a pig grows on its back, does a better job cleaning teeth?

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104. At 10:23am on 21 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#103

A lot of people here promoting plastic packaging waste have a vested interest. Do not deny it.

I choose the sustainable wooden toothbrush every time. It cleans my teeth perfectly and without that enormous plastic waste (tootbrush and plastic packaging waste).

What is your weekly/bi-weekly amount of rubbish? I assume you are a householder.

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105. At 10:25am on 21 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
"However, not everyone cares and people are lazy to do any minor changes, they're too comfortable with their lifestyle. If only shops didn't provide those plastic bags for example, customers would be forced to bring their own bags"

Possibly the most accurate statement I've read on a BBC blog. The major problem you have is that your solution to our 'comfortable lives' isn't to make the alternative products more comfortable and therefore more attractive, but to force discomfort onto us instead. Basically its the sort of mindset that taxes people who don't recycle rather than reward those who do and make it easier to recycle by providing more convenient facilities.

Ultimately you'll just breed resentment in the general public and this is why you'll fail.

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106. At 10:28am on 21 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
My biweekly rubbish is about half a wheelie bin because I take my cardboard to work for recycling (my council doesn't collect it but we do have a skip at the hospital). The remainder is mostly cellophane packing and food waste because neither is collected for recylcing and I have neither space nor need for composting facilities.

For the last damn time my only 'vested interest' in the plastic packing industry is getting fresher food cheaper.

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107. At 10:35am on 21 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#105

Dodging questions as you have done is not a good sign. What have you got to hide?

My interest is inclusive not exclusive. We find people join our campaign everyday. It is a worthy cause. The latest item I came across was veg box delivery from farms. Another site spread the good word on seasonal veg/fruit recipes.

It is growing and I encourage everyone to take part, including the plastic industry and fellow traveller types.

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108. At 10:40am on 21 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
Hahahaha. I must have provided dozens of reasonable points, normally backed up with hard science and you have failed to answer ANY of them.

My point 105 wasn't even an answer (or non asnwer) to a question. It was failry valid point in response to another bloggers point which YOU have ignored.

Your sole debate technique seems to be a character attack or straight denial of the facts. How many people do you REALLY think have a 'vested interest' in packing?

Its like trying to debate religion with a zealot. Your faith defeats any proof no matter how overwhelming it may be.

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109. At 10:42am on 21 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#108

Answer the question. What are you afraid of?

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110. At 10:47am on 21 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
What question? How much waste do I produce.

Does 106- half a wheelie bin a fortnight not answer it adequately?

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111. At 10:56am on 21 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#111

A missed that post. It must have arrived before I posted mine.

That is not bad for a fortnight. You would reduce it further with ZeroWastePackaging.

I buy fruit/veg fresh and unpackaged and it never goes off. Can you honestly compare that to the superstore situation.

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112. At 11:07am on 21 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
I completely agree with you Peter_Sym except that I am against GM foods, for reasons not applicable to this post and because I am also a scientist who deals with the mess GM makes.

Johnhcrf: You have completely ignored my posts 64 and 74 which I sent you links to what the ZeroWaste movement intends to do. It is a business, and therefore it operates for financial gain.

Others have mentioned that you are not willing to make it easy for all of us to go green, you just want to classify people who work for a living and do not want to shell out 4.50 for a wooden brush. I do recycle. Where I live, I throw about 250 g of waste (bones and meat ends that are not allowed to be composted).

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113. At 11:12am on 21 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
#111. Your fruit 'never goes off' or you eat it before it does? I can guess which you don't need to answer.

You can achieve that by shopping more regularly at the supermarket and selecting your produce carefully- this is why I also favour the loose stuff- you can pick it up and check it therefore saving yourself money.

Contrary to what you may believe I am not anti-reducing waste. I could quite easily fill my bin with the waste that I can recycle fairly easily. What I object to is being punished for not reycling when no facilities to do so exist locally.

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114. At 11:41am on 21 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
112. The thing with GM is that its like 'pollution'- its too big a topic to tackle with one word as it includes too many sub-topics.

In principle I have no problem with it- in practice it CAN be a problem but you could extend that to just about every topic on earth. What doesn't help is idiots claiming it causes global warming.... and given charles's enormous income from organic farming he DOES have a vested interest. Thats not to defend the monsantos of the world however who are even worse.

As a fellow scientist you doubtless also deal in facts and evidence which seems sadly lacking on the other side of the debate.

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115. At 11:48am on 21 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#112

It is good to chat with somebody other than PS.

The US thing was interesting. In the US it is all business whereas here there are groups.
That's the difference. It is still Zero Waste!

I was panned by plastic packaging type for choosing wood. That is why I defend my choice.

I am merely encouraging others to join-in any way they can. If I and like-minds can change so can anyone else.

Meat waste needs a green cone, bokashi bin, pets or birds.

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116. At 12:19pm on 21 Aug 2008, Mishaela wrote:
I'm not very pleased with the "progress" on this discusion which seems to be turned into cat-mouse roleplay.

Both have some interesting and needed to say real points. But to read further I can see that both are failing to consider and think about the comments of the other respondent. Sad.

Anyway that's not my problem.
Just want to add something to my previous #102 comment.

I'm definitely not lobbying for some kind of dictature in how to do your weekly shopping and what to use for carrying your goods.
I'm just saying that years ago (before this plastic bag boom) we used to go to shops with folded cotton bags and noone thought there was anything inconvenient in it. Noone felt any discomfort, so why is it such a problem now?

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117. At 12:30pm on 21 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
geen cones cost money, and so do bokashi bins (trademarketed by the ZeroWaste Movement). Birds aren't always an option. What I keep trying to tell you (to no avail) is that the local councils and governmets should tackle the problem, so that it becomes difficult to waste. That I think Peter_Sym tried several times to mention. There are the masses who are confortable, others who have achieved a life-style that does not allow them to compost, green-cone and reduce waste. Others also choose to ponder with the wider environmental impact of every choice we make.

Where I live I don't get plastic pags, except for pharmacy, and even then you have to ask for one. Everywhere else I have to take my own bag, if I forget it is 1 euro. At the bakery they give you just the bag needed to wrap your bread (after you slice it) and that's that, anything else, you pay another 1 euro (for cloth) the plastic ones cost 50 cents, but it is far from discreete. My local council makes it easy and convenient for me to do this. They provide me with bins, and a reliable collection service. I do my part by buying biodegradable liners for my bins at home. As far as water bottles are concerned, they cost me 25 cents each in addition to the water in it. Sometimes I must confess I do leave the bottles at the train station (where they also give me the choice of plastic, paper, waste/compost. But you find offen enough people searching for such so that they can sell them back. If not, I know they will be recycled anyway (they have a plastic waste. I have yet to see a plastic food container that doesn't have the 'recyclable' sign in it. Bier bottles/cans and such have the same rule, with small exceptions. Even the plastic crate carries a 5 euro refund. Wine bottles and things where you don't get money back, you can find a big selection of containers (white, brown and green glass) usually within 15 minute walk, I live 2 minutes from one. So you see it is very easy to be green, just make it convenient and people will do it.

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118. At 12:33pm on 21 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
oh and one more thing: Supermarkets have to take the bottles back, even if you didn't buy them there. They cannot refuse to give you the refund.

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119. At 12:43pm on 21 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#117

I know all about the failings of government, councils, superstores, business etc.

Zero Waste (waste reduction as well) is designed for consumers/householders. If we do nothing there will be no improvement of the situation.

I choose no packaging, rather than plastic packaging. A brown bread example: I buy a whole unpackaged brown granary loaf and slice it at home - no plastic bag!

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120. At 12:55pm on 21 Aug 2008, Mishaela wrote:
I don't even understand, why do people need to cut their bread at bakery?

Did their lazyness reached that point where they can't even take out the knife from cupboard and slice it?

No need to mention the proved fact that unsliced bread lasts longer.....

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121. At 1:01pm on 21 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#120

The bakery I visit they automatically cut and plastic bag the loaf. I just ask for an uncut loaf. Under Zero Waste paper bags are the best choice.

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122. At 1:11pm on 21 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
How do you keep/freeze the bread without plastic? Do you buy GM bread or powered with misclaneous preservatives (like the american breads that last 2 weeks still soft)? I use a plastic freezing bag just for bread (natural, no preservatives). Besides, I don't want to carry my baquette or whatever bread on a bike with bugs flying against it. Besides when that bread is finished, I use it to wrap my fruits to take to work, or I use it as my bin liner for plastic, I use already a tupperware to take most of the stuff, but it also takes space. I walk/bike/use public transportation

I think the issue is not showing you how you can recycle, but to show you the light. Most of us in Europe do not have an "american" home (like the founders of the business ZeroWaste, Inc.), we live in crammed cities, we use public transport and bicycles. (Urban unsprawl is also a big environmental problem). The small green patch we may find in our balconies we want it to be pleasant and not filled with green cones and compost bins (which we have to buy in addition to paying taxes).

You need to realize that the government also provides us with clean water, electricity and other services, and waste management. All we need is the Waste management to become greener, easier for people to go green. In turn companies will/can receive initially incentives for greener options, for using only 100% (as technology is available) recyclable materials and such.

Meanwhile our citizens can invest time working and generate funding for research and better recycling facilities. Can you not see this?

Do you own a water treatment plant in your house? Maybe you can tell us how much your green cone, and bokashi has costed (including where it was shipped from, where you bought it, who makes it, the material....), include also the toothbrush and all other ZeroWaste products you purchase.

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123. At 1:23pm on 21 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
#120: it has nothing to do with laziness, it is just convenient to slice your bread there (they do it automatically with a machine, 5 seconds max), some you can also choose the width and such. Then you get home (whether or not you brought your own bag, or container) you can freeze it directly while fresh, separate the portions and such....

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124. At 1:51pm on 21 Aug 2008, Mishaela wrote:
#123

"it has nothing to do with laziness, it is just convenient to slice your bread there (they do it automatically with a machine, 5 seconds max), some you can also choose the width and such. Then you get home (whether or not you brought your own bag, or container) you can freeze it directly"

So you say this has nothing to do with laziness?!
I can't believe what you just wrote. You practically admitted the exact opposite.
? 5sec thanks to a machine - so what? Don't you have 2mins at home?
? Choose the width - and at home you can't?
? Freeze it directly - and reason? I've never ever put bread, rolls or pastry in freezer. I keep it in wooden bread storage. If I know I won't eat whole loaf I buy half. No need for plastic bags for freezing.
And if some bread gets hard I make a breadcrumbs from it and use it when making schnitzels, fish etc....

Easy, you just need to know ;)

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125. At 1:51pm on 21 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#122

I think you misunderstand the British situation. Concerned individuals are leading the charge to Zero Waste and related issues. There is paralysis in government and councils. Superstores and business resist change. That is the reality here.

Zero waste is an ideal we should aspire to, given our various situations. We are pushing for universal food waste collection, which is essential for landfill reduction.

I agree with a lot you say but the real world prevents much of what you envisage.

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126. At 2:09pm on 21 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
# 124: Yes sorry! I realized how I sounded after I posted it. But I don't have a choice, I live alone, and the backeries close at 4 or 6pm. But I am usually at work, or at the gym so I freeze the bread so I can go there on a good day, buy the good bread and not worry.

On the other hand, if I had a bigger freezer, I could use tupperwares to freeze the bread, and wrap in aluminum foil.

Freezing is not a bad idea. I cook and prepare all of my food at home, I think it is healthier and it is less wastefull. I save the dining out for the weekend when I'm far away from home.

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127. At 2:17pm on 21 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
How does the real world prevent this? I am living in it, living green. I do not need to join a movement.Inc to live green, nor do any of us need to pay to be green. Don't you agree that we pay enough taxes?

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128. At 2:21pm on 21 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#127

It does not cost me a penny to follow a Zero Waste Challenge.

You prattle on about government, councils etc. Here they are unable to push the green agenda due to financial restrictions.

When I say real world I mean as things are in reality not as you seem to suggest.

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129. At 2:21pm on 21 Aug 2008, Mishaela wrote:
#126

I understand when there's lack of time or you live alone...
I don't have anything against freezing food, not at all! Just to make it clear - I just never froze bread and I can't even imagine what it tastes like when defrost :))) That's all.

And yes - I do think we pay enough taxes.
Not only in this field but I honestly hate the image in my head that's picturing all illegals or slackers I have to pay for..... But is't not to the topic, eventho it would be long debate.

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130. At 2:35pm on 21 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
I am not suggesting anything that is in my head. I live the system I suggested. Should I send you pictures of these bins on every house? A schedule of the pick up? I think I posted a pdf file with the statistics of a country who also employs green methods, not just my local council.

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131. At 2:36pm on 21 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
how do you get a green cone and a bokashi for free?

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132. At 2:39pm on 21 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
#129: The illegals aren't bad people, I think most of them have a hard life and when they come to our country they want to have our lifestyle. A lot of them work very hard but don't get opportunities. Another reason to make recycling easy, so everyone can do it.

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133. At 2:42pm on 21 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#131

I bought the bokashi before the month started so it does not count in the current blog discussion.

You seem to think that these organisations can make a difference. At present, this is not the case in Britain. I live in the real world.

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134. At 3:00pm on 21 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
Which organization? I know that this government provides me with drinking water, electricity, manages my sweage, provides hospitals and education. In Britain things work just as well, but we britons have allowed our society to decay pitifully by the masses of ignorant self-loathing skeptical anti-government types. We used to be known for our good manners, now we are known to be arrested on binge drinking or for our football fans.

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135. At 3:03pm on 21 Aug 2008, Mishaela wrote:
#132

Very little of them.
Most of them are just wide range of relatives of 1-2 legal immigrants living on benefits in this country, so others (like you and me) can work their a$$ off just tu make those slackers happy.
If they want our lifestyle, the have to work and live by the rules of this (or any other country they decide to go to) they have to become legal and pay taxes as we do.
But they don't so what does it say about them?
For all those and more reasons I hate illegals.

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136. At 3:05pm on 21 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
Mishaela are you too lazy to grind your own corn into flour?

Whats the difference between having a machine grind your corn and a machine slice your bread?

Incidentally defrosted frozen bread tastes virtually the same as 2 or 3 day old. Once you toast it (which being lazy I do in a small electric machine designed for the job rather than over an open fire on a fork) it tastes just the same.

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137. At 3:09pm on 21 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
"Most of them are just wide range of relatives of 1-2 legal immigrants living on benefits in this country"

I hear the clump-clump of jackboots. It may amaze you to learn that ILLEGAL immigrants don't get benefits because you need national insurance numbers and all the other parafinalia needed to satisfy 'the computer' and even EU immigrants must WORK for 24 months continually to get a penny in benefit.

The vast majority of our 170bn a year benefit bill goes to brits, but its much easier to demonise immigrants than sort out our own underclass... or untermensch if you recognise that phrase.

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138. At 3:12pm on 21 Aug 2008, Mishaela wrote:
Peter - I was responding to comment saying that when you buy sliced bread you usually get plastic packaging that's all.
Additionaly I proposed that slicing up bread at home won't cause any harm to anyone.
Is this hard to understand? Please don't twist my words. Thanks

Btw - as I said before. When I buy a house I'll be happy "farmer" growing my own veg, composting and therefore saving the environment and money a little bit.

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139. At 3:16pm on 21 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
No you said "I don't even understand, why do people need to cut their bread at bakery?

Did their lazyness reached that point where they can't even take out the knife from cupboard and slice it?"

Your words, not mine. Incidentally the ready sliced bread I get from the supermarket (a major brand) comes in slightly waxy paper, not plastic.

Good luck with the farming- you'll need about 1/4 acre min to do produce enough to really make a difference. Generally its reckoned 1 acre of land is needed to feed 1 person for a year.... thats about 50 times what I have to play with.

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140. At 3:20pm on 21 Aug 2008, Mishaela wrote:
#137

Of course I know that they need to step out of the shade to get something but I'm talking about the fact that few people enter this country, start working later some of them stop and take the benefits and invite their families to live here.

I lived in few countries just to try the life elsewhere to get experience, so I can compare.

Let me tell you that the most irritating fact about "praised multicultural Britain" is that lost of the immigrants are happy to get here and get all available benefits as soon as possible while most of them can't even speak English! Even GP practise at many places have to offer multilanguage services just to satisfy those slackers who are happy to receive cost free treatments but can't even say they have back pain.
I think that benefits should be provided to those people in need, disabled ones, single mothers, widowed people, orphans....etc.
And if something still remains than it can be given to those really want to live here under the law and following all rules not just takin advantages.

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141. At 3:26pm on 21 Aug 2008, Mishaela wrote:
#139

yes, my words commenting the fact that I don't need to slice my bread in bakery and don't need to use more bags to separate the slices in the freezer.

I used to grow tomatoes and paprikas on the balkony. When had little garden in a house I also planted potatos and cucumbers and I'm definitely going to do it again and I'm proud of it. Not only because of the fact that I'll do something "nature-friendly" but also because I'm not lazy to digg in the ground, plant something. Eventho I work Mon-Fri.

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142. At 3:29pm on 21 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
The problem is that a lot of Brits retire abroad and can't speak the local language either. You can travel anywhere in the EU either and qualify for free healthcare simply by waving your passport. Objecting when someone else uses the same right that you have seems a touch hypocritical. When you break your leg on holiday in Spain would you expect to be left in agony because you can't say my leg is broken in spanish? Can you say it in French or Greek?

Equally its funny that you think single mothers NEED benefits. A huge chunk of our taxes go to lifestyle single mums who view it as a career path: free house and salary. Its funny how many 'disabled people' on benefits are enjoying being football referees too... was it 3 or 4 this week found out?

One of my great grandfathers took part in the Yarrow marches. I think benefits should be saved for those who need them too, but the amount of foreigners fraudulently claiming are outnumbered 1000 times by home grown cheats.

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143. At 3:35pm on 21 Aug 2008, Mishaela wrote:
Mmmm, now I think I'm wasting my time in discussion with a teenager :(

Don't confuse holiday with illegal migrants!
I pay my holiday insurance and everywhere I go I have to be careful.

The single mothers or disable I mentioned were those IN NEED, so again, don't twist my words as it suits you.

Of course I know that many Brits go to Spain or elsewhere and think that with money they don't need to learn the local language etc. And that's why I also don't like them!

To the home grown cheats - yep, you're right. UK as any other country has many couch potatos and there really need to be something done to reduce the number of them.

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144. At 3:48pm on 21 Aug 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
You're thinking of a few single mums and disabled yet we payout 170bn a year in benefits and many of those DO NOT need it. There are entire council estates full of single mums who aspired to get pregnant because we support them.

Equally you do not need holiday insurance within the EU to qualify for state medical treatment. You'll get better treatment, air ambulance etc with insurance but a Spanish or French hospital will give you NHS equivalent care simply by waving a passport. A Spaniard or Pole whether here for a week or two years is entitled to the same. The difference is that if he's working here he's also paying for the NHS unlike a holiday maker.

You also seem to think that immigrant = illegal immigrant when in fact the majority are from eastern europe and can freely work here in the same way you can freely work in Hungary or Poland. if you don't like it vote for an anti-EU party at the next election.

You're not talking to a teenager either- you're talking to a 31 year old who say first hand what this mindless racism did in Croatia and I've a BIG problem with people blaming 'foreigners' for all their woes.

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145. At 4:08pm on 21 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
I think she meant teenager when you said "lifestyle single mums who view it as a career path: free house and salary. "

Well women don't become moms by accident. They don't wake up one day and say "hey! Today I will put a boy in the oven"! Often it happens the guy just feels it is convenient to leave the next day, or that the 'relationship isn't working', 'I'm in love with someone else' or "I've been seeing someone else, I meant to tell you, but....".

And then you are stuck with the baby. Even if you have a career, some benefits should be given, say allowance (based on your salary) for childcare.

You also say:
"single mums who aspired to get pregnant because we support them."--We can change this by requiring mandatory DNA testing where the dad is not available, and have the money automatically taken from their account. But a lot of men would protest this??

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146. At 5:15pm on 21 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
Back to the trend of the blog.

With Christmas getting nearer, though distant, thought should be given to preventing the usual mountain of waste which comes with presents.
In a sustainable system all such packages would be returned for further use.
Minimising packaging will also help to lessen the impact of waste.

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147. At 5:18pm on 21 Aug 2008, hydroscooby wrote:
it is not waste if it is recycled!

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148. At 6:11pm on 21 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#147

The amount of landfill waste at Christmas is absolutely huge. Think of all the plastic that is used. What is needed is full recycling of all waste material.
We shall be looking for and highlighting sustainable options as they arise. If we use these companies in sufficient numbers then hopefully the penny will drop elsewhere.

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149. At 8:40pm on 21 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
johnhcrf

You are the most blinkered person I have ever had the misfortune to come across. You are so far removed from the actual facts and evidence of the debate it is frightening.

Please, please - do not fire back with instant responses. Consider what experts are telling you is fact - get them to provide the evidence as a link and then read it before jumping to your ill-informed pre-concieved responses.

I feel certain that people are becoming weary of banging their head against your wall. I think you may win th debate through ignorance, stubborness and unrelenting fingers in your ears approach to debate.

Pat yourself on the back and consider a job well done.

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150. At 8:52pm on 21 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#149

You plastic packaging types are all alike. Anything which threatens your easy life of unsustainable waste is dangerous. What nonsense. Admit that sustainability in the use of plastic is required to overcome the current chain of waste attitude which will produce huge amount of landfill waste from now 'til the end of time.

Sustainable plastic, with minimal production and minimal waste, is surely a better choice.
What can you say in argument against this?

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151. At 9:26pm on 21 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#150: johnhcrf

I am about to tell you something that I must have already made perfectly clear to you on at least five seperate occasions. I am going to write it in very simple straight forward terms, that are 100% true and accurate:-

I am NOT a "plastic packaging type".

I head-up 'packaging' for a very major organisation, in fact one of the largest in the UK. Our organisation uses virtually every single packaging material known to man in just about every pack format you could possibly think of. I therefore have no bias whatsoever towards plastics, or any other material that matter.

My team and I work feverishly hard to reduce our packaging consumption, having very public targets in place that we are closely measured against by govt (through WRAP) and we are over-delivering against every single one of them.

Boy do I wish I could reveal myself (in a very non-naked / identity way you understand).

I understand and major on all of the very different angles and considerations of all packaging materials and formats and myself and my team make specification decisions based upon fitness for purpose as well life-cycle analysis.

I DO NOT favour plastic in any shape or form unless it performs better than the alternatives, has a lower carbon footprint than the alternatives or is more environmentally appropriate than the alternatives.

The fact is in a very large number of circumstances plastic ticks all of the above boxes and therefore become the material of choice.

Please DO NOT generalise myself and others as "plastic packaging types" or "packaging waste types" as I am neither.

If you want to debate - I will deliver you every piece of evidence I can in support of my opinions and views. However I would ask that you actually take the time read it, digest it and reflect upon it before replying. That way we may actually get somewhere in this doom loop of debate.

Stop genralising and labelling me incorrectly please. When you do you will undoubtedly realise I have no personal or vested interest axe to grind in favour of plastic one way or the other.

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152. At 11:27am on 22 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
Increasingly companies throughout the world are taking the Zero Waste approach to manufacture, Toyota being an example.
Change is already happening.

Britain should be at the forefront of this sustainable trend. With Christmas approaching, it would be great to see the Toy, electric gadget, confectioners producers and sellers aiming for Zero Waste too. This would give impetus to the required changes, felt increasingly among concerned consumers, to waste production.

Highlighting companies who adopt this better system will embolden other concerned companies.

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153. At 3:26pm on 22 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
Toyota did not set off along zero waste for any other reason that to drive profit through waste reduction and therefore cost reduction.

Please read up on lean manufacturing, Kaizen principles, value engineering before drawing the debate into this area. You misunderstand their intentions.

The produce oil burning cars from metals and plastics. They consume huge amounts of energy in the process and the vehicle then goes on to pollute, contibute to global warming and consume further energy throughout it's life. To hold them up as pillars of zero waste virtue is wholly inapropriate and a tad naieve.

Perhaps instead of one-dimensionally slating supermarkets you should take a closer look at what they are doing towards 'zero waste', see link attached. I would be very interested to hear your thoughts.

http://www.about-asda.co.uk/sustainability/recycling-waste.asp#zerowaste

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154. At 3:40pm on 22 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#153

You admit that Zero Waste is good business. Thank you.

I shop at ASDA regularly and am able to achieve ZeroWastePackaging in my purchases. There are plenty of items I cannot purchase so Zero Waste is a long way away.

In the meantime, I choose to shop local mainly, which is the best place to shop for the local community.

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155. At 3:57pm on 22 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#154

ASDA's pursuit of "Zero Waste To Landfill by 2010" is in respect of their back of store / estate and construction waste. it is not about every product on every shelf for every consumer.

No reposte re' Toyota?

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156. At 4:14pm on 22 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#155

The car industry is part of the business world. There is no viable alternative yet. My point is that Zero Waste is good in all business situations. The packaging industry would benefit from this as well, achieving a sustainable cycle, the ideal.

ASDA taking up the challenge is good but they have kept their products out of this. Superstores are masters of propaganda.

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157. At 4:23pm on 22 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#156

I am sick of explaing why you cannot target "zero waste" across all products and services. I am blue in the face.

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158. At 4:24pm on 22 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#156

How can a targeted and measured commitment to 'zero waste' be propaganda? Can you not bring yourself to accept that they are actually doing the right thing, with the very best of intentions?

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159. At 4:31pm on 22 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#158

ASDA annouce a target of Zero Waste as a sound bite. I personally just ignored it, sceptic that I am. This is the standard misinformation which superstores use. Good luck to them, I, and others, see through this practice.

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160. At 4:36pm on 22 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#159

You are unbelievable!

You hold up Toyota as a paragon of zero waste virtue, only to be corrected. You ignore the correction and then call ASDA's programme to actually deliver 'zero waste', which leads the entire industry as nothing more than "sound bite" and "misinformation". You really are unbelievable.

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161. At 4:41pm on 22 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#160

I am sorry I disappoint you. The truth hurts. I give you my honest opinion, independent of your lengthy, unreadable, efforts.

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162. At 6:25pm on 22 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#161

"lengthy and unreadable efforts"contain very detailed and comprehensive answers. If you cannot be bothered to read the other side of the debate then what hope does anyone have of getting their point across.

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163. At 6:41pm on 22 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#162

Zero Waste is a worldwide movement of concerned citizens. How can you hope to dissuade such a great number of like-minds? You do not have a hope in hell!

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164. At 6:52pm on 22 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#163

I cannot convinve anyone of anything if they cannot be bothered to read comprehensive responses that are crucial for a balanced debate.

Carry on ignoring the facts John. It serves your blind ambitions perfectly well.

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165. At 7:00pm on 22 Aug 2008, AdeJones wrote:
#163 - 'Zero Waste is a worldwide movement of concerned citizens. How can you hope to dissuade such a great number of like-minds? You do not have a hope in hell!'

Doesn't mean that it is right in isolation though, does it? The bigger picture is a lot more complicated. Read around the issues, and you'll see that the zero waste ideal is impossible to realise in practice, and that the activities of mankind will always create some waste - and that there are some wastes created by the householder for which landfill IS the best option.

If you do not believe me, consider this. I had a lean-to extension at my house re-roofed a couple of years back. It was of a 1920's vintage, and had last been roofed in the 60's. With asbestos cement roofing tiles.

Asbestos is inert. It is only hazardous because of the length/thickness of the fibres, which make them the right size to lodge in the alveoli of the lungs, create scarring, asbestosis and eventually mesothelioma. So treatment options revolve around preventing exposure pathways from occurring.

You can't recycle this product. There are only two routes for dealing with asbestos to prevent exposure pathways. Use plasma arc gasification to turn it into glass frit, and hence remove its hazardous properties, or landfill it in deep monofill (preferably encapsulated) to place it beyond harms way. It won't rot, it won't leach - it won't do anything other than sit there.

Now plasma arc gasification is a good idea for disposing of this material. Turns it into a product! But at a cost, both financially and environmentally (consider the energy use - this material has no calorific value, so you're having to put in quite a lot of energy to melt it - and the cost of the infrastructure.) It's cheaper and less environmentally impacting to actually simply landfill asbestos. It's more sustainable too - if you consider that the three tenets of sustainability are minimising environmental, economic and social impacts, landfilling of asbestos ticks two of those boxes far more convincingly than plasma arc gasification does.

However - your wish to avoid landfill in totality would see us choosing the more expensive and more environmentally damaging option just to satisfy an ideological whim. This is why 'Zero Waste To Landfill' should be a guide, and not a prescriptive command.

My asbestos sheets are sat outside wrapped up in a big sheet of damp course plastic [another wonderful use for plastic!] while I argue with the council that they should provide a local collection point for this particular household waste stream, prior to landfill. I'll get there in the end.

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166. At 7:03pm on 22 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#164

You present facts which suit your viewpoint. I am sceptical of such facts. Balance needs a look at both sides of an argument. You can produce 1,000,000 articles which say Zero Waste is bad. It does not matter one whit, Zero Waste is a good thing.

You can have you viewpoint but you cannot expect others to slavishly accept this viewpoint. I prefer my own judgment, it is usually right.

Sustainability is a very good thing to aspire to. It will end wasteful practices associated with the chain of waste. Ignore your current hang-up, whatever it is. Can you not see the value in this future system?

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167. At 7:14pm on 22 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#166

Hello.....

Pot - Kettle!

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168. At 7:16pm on 22 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
How can we debate with a man that by his own admission is "sceptical of the facts" and instead relies "on his own judegment".

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169. At 7:21pm on 22 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#168

You are misrepresenting, not for the first time, what I expressed.

I assumed you were male, now I am not so sure.

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170. At 7:23pm on 22 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#169

How?

watch the sexism please.

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171. At 7:27pm on 22 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#170

If you are female my attitude will change.

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172. At 7:35pm on 22 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#171

My sex, age, colour and species are entirely irrelavant to this debate. Your attitude should not be adjusted for any of them.

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173. At 7:39pm on 22 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#172

My sex is in my title, straightforward. I assumed you were a male opponent of Zero Waste because it is a female-led trend.

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174. At 7:44pm on 22 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#173

That's like saying I am opposed to women having the vote, just because I happen to be a man. Incredible.

If post #173 is your genuine belief then I am thoroughly shocked at your attitude. However, again this helps reinforce my perception that your world is very black and white.

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175. At 7:52pm on 22 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#175

You are male, I can continue. In an earlier post you said I was a "man". That is where the doubt came in.

I chose to deal with the fair sex in a different manner.

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176. At 7:57pm on 22 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
forget it.

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177. At 8:57pm on 22 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#176

Cheers.

I am a Zero Waste enthusiast, as you may have guessed.

What is your sphere? (in a sentence)

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178. At 11:37pm on 22 Aug 2008, ajs_dy wrote:
"I chose to deal with the fair sex in a different manner." -- How can this possibly be interpreted as anything other than sexist?

Sexism == treating men and women differently for no reason save that one is a man and the other a woman.

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179. At 07:57am on 23 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#178

Are you as daft as you have indicated.

Sexism : the oppression of women by men.
That is the overriding use of the term.

I take an anti-sexist point of view, recognising that the fair sex have value in their difference.

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180. At 11:12am on 23 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#179

You worry me.

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181. At 11:41am on 23 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#180

Do not worry about me. You and your ilk are the ones facing an abyss. With Zero Waste on the rise you must feel the burden.

#177 What is your sphere? (one sentence please)

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182. At 4:23pm on 23 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
I have told you what I do for a living on numerous occasions. If you cant be bothered to read, i can't be bothered to type.

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183. At 4:45pm on 23 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#182

Assuming you are a boss type in packaging,
can you not accept that consumers want change? We are promoting it because no one else is.

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184. At 6:18pm on 23 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
I do nothing but deliver the cgane that customers demand of packaging. That is my job.

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185. At 8:09pm on 23 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#184

Customer demand can be altered by advertising and other agencies. As consumers find more and more alternatives the impact of our campaign will increase.

What will you do when people turn their back on this waste packaging?

My advice is for you to cater for a changing customer trend, as a step towards full change.

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186. At 7:40pm on 24 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#185

Then why not check out latest EA / Defra research on ethical consumerism.

Completely independent of any business / stakeholder it demonstrates that despite the desire for change then customers still understand the principles and functions of packaging in preserving and protecting their food.

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187. At 7:51pm on 24 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#186

I have no need for this chain of waste plastic packaging, neither have like-minds.

The public will come to realise that they are being used to deal with superstore waste.
These same supestores must take full responsibility for this material. In doing so, a sustainable system will emerge.

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188. At 7:55pm on 24 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#187 - johnhcrf

Surely not more evidence you can't be bothered to read. Shame that.

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189. At 8:04pm on 24 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#188

My interest is purely from a consumer point of view. We are one of the links of the waste chain. Break this link and the chain ends. It is as simple as that.

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190. At 8:26pm on 24 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#189

Oh, well. I could have posted the link for you, as a smokescreen.

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191. At 8:28pm on 24 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#191

What is your fixation about links. Argue your point of view and await a reply.

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192. At 9:03pm on 24 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#191

Bringing in external sources information adds independence and depth to any debate.

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193. At 9:32pm on 24 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#192

You idea o independence is anything, iany I prefer to base my answers on my, and like-minds, Zero Waste experience.

It seems to me that all you have is more of the same old practices. Bring something new in your thinking as a positive contribution to a sustainable future.

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194. At 9:45pm on 24 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#193

My idea of independence is up to the minute robust science, resaerch and study that is unconnected in any way with myself or the organisations that employs me.

As I have already said, these pieces add depth to the debate. I would suggest that given your evidently clear disregard for the wider enviromental impacts of your material choices then your "answers" are more likely to be based upon intuition and the nice warm feeling it gives brushing your teeth in the morning with a piece of wood and siome bicarbonate of soda.

This debate needs to have access to the latest thinking and science, as I and many others have tried and will continue to do.

The evidence and facts may not be what you want to hear, they may be contradictory to your view or way of life however that does not detract from the fact that they are in fact, facts.

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195. At 9:53pm on 24 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#195

My contribution, and like-minds, is to address our personal waste. Waste reduction is a good choice for consumers.

You may disagree with this but you have to accept our right to tackle this big problem in the way we choose.

Science is important but it does not have all the answers.

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196. At 10:53am on 25 Aug 2008, ajs_dy wrote:
johnhcrf, men can be victims of sexism as much as women.

Personally I take the view that what lies between a person's legs is only relevant to someone who (a) wants to sleep with them and (b) is fussy.

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197. At 10:55am on 25 Aug 2008, ajs_dy wrote:
johnhcrf:
"Science is important but it does not have all the answers. "

Then we're in big trouble; because science is **all** we've got.

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198. At 5:03pm on 25 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
SmartCycle in the US is using PET plastic, with 50+% plus recycled material, to make plastic packaging for food. They have chosen the sustainable path.

This should set a good example for our companies. Do other blog readers, with an interest in sustainability, see this as the way to avoid the waste chain problems?

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199. At 8:45pm on 25 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#198

Recycled content in plastics has been around forever. Lately increasingly high PCW (Post-Consumer Waste) contents are being achieved as more plastic is recycled. Ribena and Innocent bothe use 100% PCW PET Bottles. All major supermarkets use as much PCW as possible in their plastics.

Don't look to the US when the UK is actually globally leading packaging sustainability. Belive me, I know - it's my life!

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200. At 9:29pm on 25 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
test

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201. At 08:33am on 26 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
Smartcycle sustainable packaging is not available in the UK, according to their Table of countries.

They have many examples. The one I liked was fresh fruit, eg strawberries packaging. The lifecycle of their plastic is fully sustainable.

Do any other people see that this is the future, and not the waste chain so loved by the opposition.

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202. At 9:18pm on 26 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#201 johnhcrf

The UK availability of 'smartcycle' is irrelevant as I said all UK retailers and some major brands are already pushing hard for PCW content in their plastics, thereby reducing virgin consumption.

We're doing it here.

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203. At 08:48am on 27 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
Instead of criticising the US business community, as some on here have done repeatedly, we should applaud their rapid adoption of fully sustainable packaging. We should follow their example.

Another item was packaging with HDPE to replace landfill bound styrofoam. Cardboard was also in this large packaging situation. With Christmas approaching in the distance, the packaging industry should take the opportunity to use this type instead of the current waste packaging.

As a Zero Waste enthusiast, sustainable packaging is the only choice.

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204. At 7:07pm on 27 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#202 - johnhcrf

I have tried to explain to you that the UK is leading the packaging changes consumers demand. I'm not making it up, it's a fact.

You should not look to the US for the lead. Instead we should be proud of the fact that UK is leading this.

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205. At 00:42am on 28 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
Smartcycle are attacking a waste problem in the US, namely used PET bottles. Their unique sustainable system described as cradle to cradle employs full recycling of waste material and thus minimal landfill.

The British situation fits the cradle to grave model, where plastic waste is added to landfill by the millions of ton every year. A spokesman for the plastic packaging group said he was happy for this to continue for 25 years.

Can anyone see a difference between the 2 systems described here? My preference is the first.

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206. At 10:17am on 28 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#205 - johnhcrf

I have explained this numerous times already. There is nothing "unique" about Smartcycle. The exact same thing happens here on a massive scale. Plastic bottles are recycled specifically back into plastic bottles and rPET / rHDPE feedstock for other rigids.

You clearly are not willing to listen to the answers i give as they contradict your own blinkered views. for the fourth time, check out this link:-

http://www.closedlooprecycling.co.uk/

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207. At 10:24am on 28 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
Further on the SmartCycle experience, whereas in Britain recycled plastic has ended up in lower value products devaluing the whole process, The US company to their great credit are supplying high and even higher value products.

This is the future not the chain of waste nonsense advocated by the opposition. I know their position and further discussion with them is pointless.

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208. At 10:36am on 28 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#207 - johnhcrf

You really are not listening. Plastic bottles are being recycled into more plastic bottles. Plastic trays are being recycled into more plastic trays. This is the 'closed loop' you aspire to, it's already here and working.

This is exactly what Smartcycle do, there is no difference.

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209. At 11:14am on 28 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
For consumers who have to deal with the waste problem every day, I say there is an alternative. Taking responsibility for the problem (no one else will - plastic packaging people, superstores, local government, government have all dodged blame), you can join us in our Zero Waste challenge.

What we seek is sustainable practices, already seen in the US (not here) and reducing your waste to Zero, or as close as practicable, is your contribution to this great end.

This is the future not the current chain of waste which will produce waste forever, unchecked.

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210. At 7:17pm on 28 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#210 - johnhcrf

I see we are back to an inability to read other users posts, denial of the clear facts when they do not suit your own view and preaching the 'good word' in the face of this forum actually being a "debate".

So be it John........

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211. At 5:23pm on 30 Aug 2008, johnhcrf wrote:
#210

I love the fact that I do not use your plastic packaging waste. This is achieved by the following:

Local shopping
Unpackaged fruit/veg
Home container for meat/fish
Baking my own cakes
Cooking my own meals
Finding new ideas from like-minds.

I encourage all consumers to take up the Zero Waste challenge and put an end to unsustainable practices forever.

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212. At 6:33pm on 31 Aug 2008, idontmuchbut wrote:
#211 - johnhcrf

Allow me to add your to you sycophantic desiplay of self-praise and congratulation. Big pat on the back for John - Hooray.
Congratulations John.

Achieving all of this whilst ensuring you do not listen to any science or actual facts is some achievement, well done.

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My name's Chris Jeavans. For one month I am attempting to live my normal life with one main change - no new plastic. That means no bags, no packaging, no plastic to hang around in landfill. In this blog I'll keep you updated to let you know how I'm getting on.