Overcharge possibility 'a drawback' of Oyster card
Post categories: Oyster card, Transport for London
| 11:42 UK time, Friday, 25 February 2011
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Oyster is fast and convenient but the system is not perfect.
I've been given a break-down by the Liberal Democrats on the London Assembly
of where passengers are being overcharged on their Oyster cards and at which stations.
Last year passengers were overcharged a whopping £60 million in total.
The top ten stations where passengers were overcharged in 2010 were:
Waterloo (National Rail) £2,452,000
London Bridge (National Rail) £2,300,000
Liverpool Street (National Rail) £1,615,000
Bank (London Underground) £1,339,000
King's Cross (London Underground) £1,073,000
Victoria (London Underground) £982,000
Stratford (National Rail) £877,000
Wimbledon (National Rail) £825,000
Oxford Circus (London Underground) £862,000
Liverpool Street (London Underground) £670,000
The full lists are here (PDF).
Transport for London says commuters would have paid most of the overcharges anyway in actual fares but the Lib Dems say it is not just people forgetting to touch in and touch out.
I agree.
I've discovered there are flaws with the Oyster system, particularly when large crowds are involved.
When there is a football match for example they open the barriers and implement something called "autocomplete".
That means the system in effect touches you out of the system automatically without you having to do it. Sensors pick up cards going through the barriers.
The problem is that to make sure your journey is completed by the system you have to touch in at the same station within three days. Or you get a maximum fare.
So many people obviously do not return to that station and get the maximum fare and perhaps do not realise.
TfL today admitted to me: "It is a drawback of the tool that we have."
Have you been wrongly overcharged? Let me know...
Twitter: @TomSEdwards
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I've fallen foul of this too, though a call to the Oystercard helpline sorted it out soon enough - but you need to have registered your card online so that you can check.
Returning from a trip to Winchester, I took the steps from the mainline platform at Waterloo down to the Waterloo & City line; when I got to the barriers, a bit worn out after an exhausting trip, I tapped by Oystercard on them, assuming they were to get to the underground.
In fact, they were national rail exit barriers, and I should have put the return half of my ticket in - there was another Oyster reader for the W&C a few metres further on. So I got charged about £4.90 unnecessarily on my Oyster. Yes, my fault to an extent, but a reminder sign would be useful at places like this where it probably happens quite often.
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Are there really sensors that can read cards going through/near barriers that aren't touched on readers? Some more information on that would be interesting.
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Another problem with Oyster Cards is that: although they now work on the overground trains, if you were to travel around London all day on a combination of overground, tube and bus, they don't seem to default to the price of a travelcard. I asked an inspector on a train once if the Oyster Card was supposed to default to the daily travel card and he said that it should do, but he doesn't think that it actually does. This means that you are actually charged the one- day travelcard price for your tube/bus travel and then also I suspect the overground train fare on top. It is therefore cheaper to buy a travelcard. However the Oyster Card is so convenient to use, it is such a shame that it does not quite work.
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Another problem I've had is that if you touch into a station and then touch out at the same station, even if only in for a few seconds you get charged maximum fare.
This happened at Hammersmith when it was only after I had touched in that I was told there were no trains on that line. Wasn't happy, but by that point the queue for at the counter for people getting refunds was so long that I let it go.
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2. At 1:17pm on 25 Feb 2011, davidwalters wrote:
Are there really sensors that can read cards going through/near barriers that aren't touched on readers? Some more information on that would be interesting.
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My gut feeling is that this is nonsense.
What if you are carrying more than one card? What about the roll out of the Integrated Transport Smartcard? What about TfL's imminent use of PayWave technology?
All of these make general area sensing of cards impossible for practical usage.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Thank Heavens somebody at local BBC news has finally cottoned on to this systematic scandal. I have incorrectly been overcharged on my Oyster card on several occasions. The irritation in being overcharged has invariably been exacerbated by Tfl's obstructive nature and policies when it comes to trying to get the overcharge refunded (which I ALWAYS do as a matter of principle). In 2009 I travelled by tube from Woodford Green to Heathrow, unfortunately unaware that the Piccadilly line was in chaos, no advance warning on station noticeboards, no information from our driver over the train PA, and utter panic amongst platform staff at Hammersmith. The first 9 (yes, nine !) trains terminated at Northfields, no-one could say why ! My journey, which should have taken about 1 hr 45 minutes, took over 3 hours. I just got to check-in about 5 minutes before the flight was closed...
On returning to the UK I noticed that my Oyster card balance seemed to be very low, and checking the balance I noticed that on the day of my journey to LHR I had been charged £4 for an incomplete journey from Woodford, and another £4 for arriving at LHR from an unknown destination. So I immediately asked at the Woodford ticket office for an explanation and refund. I was told that I had been 'double over-charged' because if you are in the system for an overlong period you will be timed-out (and thus penalised for both entry and eventual exit). I wonder how many people are aware of this, and on that particular day just how many hundreds (if not thousands) of people experiencing similar delays to mine were unwittingly 'timed-out' / ripped-off by Tfl ?
And, to make matters worse, the chap at the Woodford ticket office was only able to refund one of the £4 charges, saying that this was the cap which the computer system placed on the amount ticket-office staff could refund (Hmmm, methinks this absurd restriction was part of Tfl's preparation for the de-manning of ticket offices). He said that in order to get a refund of the oustanding balance still owing (£4 less the correct £2.40 single fare) I would have to call the Tfl 'call centre'.
Determined to get back what these thieves owed me, I duly called. Firstly, rather than offering an 0800 number for refunds you have to call an 0845 number. After calling the number, and being held in a queue for 12 minutes, I explained that I wanted the £1.60 refunded to my Oyster card, plus the 50p that I estimated the call was costing me. This was met with an absolute refusal, in fact I was told in no uncertain terms that it was perfectly reasonable for Tfl to presume that I had a 'free-calls package' on my landline !
I got the £1.40 owing (begrudgingly) credited back to my card. But it cost me 50p and considerable time and frustration to get it. Next time Tfl, I will go to the small claims court.......
Most of us encounter many renowned organisations as we go about our daily lives. Like certain low-cost airlines, internet payment systems and certain High Street banks, we have little real choice but to use their services, especially in those markets/service sectors where they enjoy a dominant position. What these organisations have in common, in MY opinion, is that they are inclined to show not only contempt for customers but to employ payment/charging systems which - when they malfunction - seem to do so unerringly to the advantage of the provider rather than the customer. Hence these businesses tend to enjoy both the patronage and loathing of their customers in equal measure. You must decide for yourself whether Tfl merits membership of this elite group.
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So let's say I'm coming back from Gatwick on a paper ticket and am unfortunate enough to alight at Selhurst just when the football crowd arrives for a Crystal Palace match so they open the floodgates and instigate the autocomplete sensors. Would the Oyster card in my pocket which I haven't used be landed with a maximum fare?
To be fair the one time I did have a problem was when I got a "seek assistance" message at an unmanned station, so foolishly touched my card again to see if it would work this time. In fact the first touch was fine, but the 2nd was taken as a touch in. The Oyster helpline were very understanding and arranged a refund straight away. The downside was that to collect my refund I had to use my Oyster card within a week at the nominated station, which I may not have needed to do. I also wonder why you can't pick up refunds at ticket machines in the station rather than having to go somewhere.
The moral of the story has to be check your balance frequently online and make sure it tallies.
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I've had a number of calls and emails from Transport for London about the use of the phrase "overcharging". Tfl say imposing a maximum fare is not over charging as some of that would have been paid by the passenger in fares anyway. This is what I have been sent:
A TfL spokesperson said: “Maximum fares are not overcharges. We have maximum fares in place to ensure customers validate their journeys or we would open to widespread fare evasion across our network. We are seeing the number of incomplete journeys falling - just two per cent of journeys on the TfL network are left incomplete and we are confident that the Oyster system, which has transformed the way people pay for travel, is charging correctly. If a customer fails to touch in or out they are charged a maximum fare however up to 80 per cent of those maximum fares would have been payable had passengers touched out correctly. Clearly any passenger who believes they have been incorrectly charged a maximum fare should contact us to apply for a refund via the Oyster helpline or station ticket offices.”
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I had my two kids one Saturday afternoon and due to problems with the ticket machine and trying to get a ticket for my 6 year old, I forgot to buzz my oyster in as we ran for the trian and was charged £6.50 for going 4 stops.
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also been charged £4.50 when buzzed in at Waterloo BR downstairs and due to delays in train went above and was charged for exiting.
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I was getting so infuriated by the gate 'failing to notice me touch out' at Peckham Rye in rush hour that I paid some extra special attentioln.
The big gate was open, so, you instinctively go for it as the flow is quicker, you touch out, it beeps one beep, stays green, but if you look carefully, it gives an error 70 message. not a 36, insufficient funds (two beeps,red), not a 22.(two beeps, red).. a 70. So I asked... what does this mean?/ No-one has been able to answer me.. nobody knows what error 70 is.
Each time... £6 incomplete journey. Average wait on the Oyster phoneline of 27 minutes, 0845 number..... you do the maths...
Scandalous
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Quote from the article "Sensors pick up cards going through the barriers." this is NOT POSSIBLE. Cards can ONLY be read by the barriers if you physically touch your card to the yellow reader (which is unlikely to happen when the barriers have been opened due to crowds.) The thing about visiting the same station within 3 days MAY be correct but I'd have to check.
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5. At 2:08pm on 25 Feb 2011, Kit Green wrote:
2. At 1:17pm on 25 Feb 2011, davidwalters wrote:
Are there really sensors that can read cards going through/near barriers that aren't touched on readers? Some more information on that would be interesting.
---------------------------------------------------
My gut feeling is that this is nonsense.
What if you are carrying more than one card? What about the roll out of the Integrated Transport Smartcard? What about TfL's imminent use of PayWave technology?
All of these make general area sensing of cards impossible for practical usage.
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Firstly is is nonsense the ONLY way cards can be read at the barrier is by touching it to the yellow reader.
HOWEVER the reading of multiple cards at the same time is technically possible (although of course the system would not know if you wanted to pay with your Oyster card or your Paywave card)
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Wimbledon is nigh on impossible to change between tram and train without being overcharged. The ticket-gate-less tram platform is so confusing the staff don't even know what to say. I have a scientific background and the system defies logic - not that there are clear and SIMPLE instructions on the platform. Hong Kong has much the same system. They make a mockery of ours with their graceful simplicity and reliability. I am never worried about being overcharged there. Over here, it is poor design poorly implemented almost seeming to be intentional. Hmmmm.
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Have you looked at how National Rail operators treat Oyster users? There is no way of knowing your card has not been scanned properly until they are in a position to impose a £20 fine. That's a lot more than an overcharge, and I understand they are allowed to keep all the money from those fines, independently from TFL.
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Octopus Card in Hong Kong has been in use since 1997. The Oyster card is indeed one of the 'exports' from HK... It's one of HK's inventions.
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Thanks for postinng on Oyster's problems.
RE "autocomplete" - This is used when there are large crowds and you are specifically told not to touch out and the system will do it automatically. They use it about 15 times a weekend - the issue is you eventually have to touch in at that station within 3 days. (That all came from tfl's Head of ticketing so I assume it is correct)
I requested specifics about the technicals from Tfl press office about how they do autocomplete yesterday and am awaiting a response but I'll post it if I get it.
Cheers Tom
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My experience was similar to 5teve's. I had tapped in at New Cross Gate station only to find that the trains had been cancelled/delayed (in spite of the board at the gate saying they were on time). When I tapped out again at the station, it charged me a fare. When we asked the staff at the counter for a refund we were informed that we could only get a refund from Tube stations (!). Tube stations in SE London, of course, are few and far between. I think TfL really needs to get some of its policies together.
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I doubt whether the 'Autocomplete' (AC) function exists. If oyster card is completely based on Octopus card from HK, then I don't think the AC function exists. Octopus card was first designed to be able to communicate with the reader within a very close proximity to prevent over-charging. A few technologies were explored in early 1990s in HK when they were trying to find the best option for ticketless system. One of the technologies considered was the one from Japan. That was, what I believe, using RfID technology that you do not need to take out the card but the gate is able to sense it when you go pass it and charge you automatically. However, the draw-back was that if you stood close to the gate but you were not going to use the public transport, you would still be charged. Therefore, those transport companies decided to create a completely new technology instead - that's what you and me are using everyday. One of the features of these cards is to limit the range of detection so that you are only charged when your card is touching the reader.
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Oyster refund procedures for infrequent train or tube customers are far from satisfactory. It is all very well TFL saying customers only have to call the Oyster helpline for a refund but as a previous poster has already mentioned not without having to pay for a lengthly phone call. There should be a freephone number and a " UK geographical" number(more likely to be included in landline and mobile call packages).
When I've had Oyster overpayment issues I have often spent 20-30 minutes sorting it out. I can't get a refund from my local London Overground station because when they took over management of our station over a year ago they did not replace the old Southern Railways machinery in the ticket office, so we don't get the same Oyster services offered at tube stations. We can't even buy a new Oyster card or get a replacement when one stops working! So instead of a refund you can only get a credit which has to be validated by travelling from a specified rail or tube station within 8 days. Not much use for those of us who do not use trains or tubes that regularly. So you have to wait until you know you are going to use the train then call again (more cost) and then you get told there isn't enough notice for the credit to be actioned! I don't know how customers in the parts of London without a tube station and only using bus services are meant to get on! It is not uncommon for the readers on buses to malfunction and drivers make you pay a cash fare.
Finally how are customers meant to check if they were overcharged last year? The online journey statements only cover the previous 60 days are not easy to read and are not 100% accurate - I often find gaps in entries. Yet when you ask TFL to email a statement you get a much better format and it is 100% accurate. Apparently the 2 statements are from 2 different sources which seems crazy and surely more expensive to run 2 systems!
All in all TFL could and should be doing much better.
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15. At 10:43pm on 25 Feb 2011, leo_bfg wrote:
Wimbledon is nigh on impossible to change between tram and train without being overcharged.
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"Wimbledon station presents an unusual procedure with the Oyster card pay as you go electronic ticketing system. Ordinarily, London Underground passengers with Oyster cards must "touch in" at the start of their journey and "touch out" at the end. Those who fail to "touch out" will be charged the maximum possible fare from their starting point. Tramlink passengers starting a journey at Wimbledon, after passing through the entry gates, will not be able to "touch out" at the end of their tram journey, since tram stops provide no facility to do so. Instead they must "touch in" a second time on the tram platform at Wimbledon, after passing through the ticket barrier. The system will then recognise that no tube journey has been made.
A similar issue arises for passengers arriving at Wimbledon by tram. Normally tram users do not touch out, but at Wimbledon they must do so in order to leave the station. Touching out at the regular turnstile accomplishes this. If, however, a passenger touches his card at a standalone Oyster reader (such as the one by the manual gates), the system will see this as starting a new journey rather than ending one, and will deduct a maximum cash fare from the card."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wimbledon_station
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....also this:
http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/wimbledon/
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I have worked for London Underground for over 15 years on the gateline and in the ticket office and I have never heard of sensors that automatically pick up Oystercards to use autocomplete.
Furthermore,I have never heard of the need to return to the same station within three days to get the journey completed.
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This has just been sent to me from Tfl re autocomplete. Bottom line - if you got ushered through a gate in a crowd and were told not to bother touching out. Check you didn't get a maximum fare.
Selective Auto Completion
Selective Auto Completion (SAC) is a setting available within Oyster to remedy incomplete journeys without customers having to take any action.
During disruptions or major events customers may be left with an unfinished journey, i.e., a journey where they have tapped in but have not been able to tap out. This can happen when there is a need to usher crowds out of a station, for example for a football match.
SAC, when applied to the Oyster readers at gates looks for previous unfinished journeys when the customer starts their next journey and completes the unfinished journey. So, for example, when customers start their return journey after the football match the system can complete the previous journey assuming that the previous journey finished at the same station. TfL are very careful in applying SAC so as to avoid errors. SAC is usually set at stations in the same zone so that customers do not get overcharged when a journey is completed. So, for example during a recent football match at the Emirates Stadium with a kick-off time of 1945, SAC was set to look for unfinished journeys between 1600 and 1945 and complete them. The setting stayed on the gates until close of traffic that day to pick up customers returning from the football match. The setting was applied at Arsenal, Highbury & Islington and Finsbury Park. Whichever of these stations customers returned through, the system would have auto-completed an incomplete journey made between 1600 and 1945, with a fare charged as if the customer had exited normally in Zone 2. The customer’s journey history (as viewed, for example, at a self-service machine in a Tube station) would indicate that SAC had taken place and show the fare charged..
There are three settings available for SAC and TfL uses each of these according to the circumstances:
1) The incomplete journey charge is amended such that the customer is charged a fare which assumes their unfinished journey was actually made to the station they have just entered. The fare reflects any daily capping that applies.
2) The incomplete journey charge is completely refunded.
3) A fixed refund amount is applied to the card.
During disruptions to the transport service it is common for TfL to use the second of these settings and refund the entire charge.
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My own experience of football crowds is actually the reverse of what is being described here. Rather than problems before the match, the huge crowds are just after the match. On one specific evening I returned to Norwood Junction to find that all the Oyster readers were locked away in the ticket hall while the crowds were directed through the side gate. The old validators next to the gates have been switched off because the station is always manned now Overground operate it. On this occasion it was IMPOSSIBLE to touch in. Thankfully the man on the barrier at New Cross Gate was sympathetic and let us through.
However, South Eastern are getting very hot on people arriving at their terminal stations (including London Bridge) without a validated Oyster Card. Usually this means that someone with say a zone 2-4 season ticket has forgotten to set an OEP (or more likely doesn't know anything about them), but I figure it could also trap someone who hadn't touched in on a pure PAYG Oyster card. In both instances the symptom is that there was no entry deduction made. South Eastern currently issue £20 penalty fares to anyone in this situation. Would they believe that British Transport Police and/or London Overground had inadvertantly made it impossible to touch in? If some of the stories I'm seeing at this site are anything to go by I doubt it.
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