How serious is Boris about the driverless Tube?
Post categories: Boris Johnson, Industrial action, London Underground, Technology
| 16:38 UK time, Friday, 14 January 2011
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Last night Mayor Boris Johnson threatened to have more Automatic Train Operation (ATO) systems on the Underground network and implied he could sack Tube drivers if they didn't stop striking and employ non-union staff in their place.
ATO isn't new - however to describe it as "driverless" is a bit misleading as there are drivers most of the time who check the doors but they switch to manual when there's a problem.
It's used on the Victoria and the Central Lines and it's coming on the Jubilee and the Northern Lines.
Driverless is probably more applicable to the DLR but even there they have train captains to look after commuters and the doors.
The hitch with the veiled "plan" is what if you employ someone who's non-union (which you wouldn't know anyway) - how long before they sign up to the RMT or ASLEF?
And with the RMT announcing strike dates on the DLR next week - it proves even really driverless trains don't stop strikes.
Interestingly, the Conservatives on the London Assembly proposed totally driverless train across the network six months ago claiming it would save £140m a year. It was swiftly dismissed by the Mayor's adviser Kulveer Ranger.
The Mayor's opponents say he's grandstanding and baiting the unions.
Others say he's trying to put clear blue water between himself and Ken Livingstone in next year's Mayoral election.
What about another theory.... Is the Mayor trying to isolate the RMT Union?
If he's baiting a union it's certainly only one union - the RMT.
I've been given this letter (PDF) that the Mayor has sent to ASLEF, the Tube drivers union.
The Mayor is asking Keith Norman of ASLEF to a meeting to discuss long-term transport strategy and not enter negoitations on specific issues. That'd include the transport settlement and the Olympics.
A spokesman said it didn't change policy and said they wouldn't meet with unions while actions were going on.
On the one hand the Mayor implies he will sack Tube workers if they don't stop striking - and then on the other he invites them round for tea.
Let's see what ASLEF do.
Difficult decision for them? What will happen to union solidarity now?
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I am very tired of hearing about how much Tube Drivers earn what the holidays are and what the contract consists of from people who don't have a clue. I have NEVER seen a correct report on this in the media and yet it is always talked about. It also amazes me that after many many years of RMT and ASLEF unions the media can't get the information right regarding them. The RMT union represents all London Underground workers, ASLEF is the train drivers union. So when RMT were striking last year, which by the way is about loss of station staff a health and safety risk and a Boris back track, station staff, signallers and some drivers would have striked. When ASLEF striked on Boxing Day only drivers striked (and not all). So please report the news, but can you be acurate and stop giving drivers a bad name, we are NOT constantly on strike. ASLEF hadn't striked in years before Boxing Day.
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To peevedoff. How old are you? You are talking about way back when Maggie Thatcher was Prime Minister. We on the Underground are a family, but not literally. We understand the difficulties of our fairly unique working enviroment from line to line and trains to stations. We don't have to know a colleague personally or have ever seen them before to be able to share a joke and work together well, what would have happened on 7/7 if were weren't like this??
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Why dont these people go and get another job if they dont like it. It's what the rest of us normal people do.
@ Heidi464, it may be a long time since drivers have been on strike but it's part of the culture, this wont be the last time a strike happens for reasons that can be solved by other means.
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Johnson's comments were clearly tongue in cheek but he is absolutely correct; the technology for driverless trains is available & tried and tested. The DLR has been driverless for years.
Tube drivers get £30,000+ per year, not including all the NI and pension contributions paid by TFL. That would be much better spent on infrastructure rather than on drivers.
I haven't got a problem with drivers per se but the militant unions are '70's dinosaurs, giving London a bad name and bringing misery to the public.
Its time for power hungry, over paid union bosses to think about London, not their own careers.
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I cannot take Boris Johnson seriously.
The people who work on the London Underground are more important to me than a politician who is grandstanding and who probably takes taxis and drives a car, anyway. The drivers and the other people who work on the London Underground are vital to London. Besides, it is just like firing all of the bus conductors. They have to get in the queue for the dole and the result is that the bus drivers get too stressed out.
Politicians like Boris Johnson are ready to make everyone redundant and let us use our cash cards in a society where robots are in charge. No, thank you!
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I think it will be better if most of trains on the underground tube lines are run without manual drivers. Automated system is the modern way to run trains these days. Boris Johnson and the rest of the public in London are getting annoyed that there are constantly being tube strikes. Using trains that are run by automated system will save loads of money for TFL.
Why cannot the train drivers in the underground just do their job and run the trains in London on keep the capital moving. They need to stop complaining about the job cuts, it obvious that job cuts are required in this current economic climate.
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TheWalrus999 wrote:
Tube drivers get £30,000+ per year,
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Actually I think you wil find that is £40,000+ a year. It's on the tfl website
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Boris is talking complete codswallop.
Victoria, Jubilee and Central lines already have ATO. Which cost a LOT to install, and takes years to do so, and you still need a train operator, for emergencies and failures.
DLR has "Train captains" - and THEY are threatening legal strike action, because management won't negotiate properly.
Agreed, Crowe of RMT is a semi-communist agitator ... but ... surely he should not be able to get so much support, unless there was something seriously wrong with LUL (& TfL) higher management, who are obviously treating their employees with the same contempt and arrogance that they dispay towards their passengers.
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The advocates of fully-automated, driverless trains ought to consider what it's like stuck on a packed failed train in a tunnel with no-one on board who can fix the problem. As trains have very limited opportunities to overtake each other just about every other train on the route gets affected too.
The occasional failures that happen now and are very unpleasant when you're stuck underground would be far more frequent if there were no drivers.
DLR was designed to be driverless from the outset (but even DLR has train captains who take over when things go wrong). It's far more difficult bolting new technology onto largely Victorian / Edwardian era infrastructure.
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I personally find it reassuring to have a driver on the train, I don't like the idea that if something happens like the train getting stuck in a tunnel, that there is no one to inform you as to what has happened and no one to take control. I remember being stuck on a packed train on the Victoria Line for over an hour on a hot evening not long after the 7/7 attacks. People were getting rather agitated and also a bit panicky that something had happened again on the underground network. Fortunately the driver was very calm and reassuring, and updated us regularly as to what was going on and what was going to happen. Had we not had this human contact, people may have actually tried to force open the doors to get out of the train, which would have put them in real danger.
I also love it when you get a friendly driver who entertains you on the way, particularly the driver on the Victoria Line with the West Indian accent who welcomes the passengers to Brixton and wishes everyone a good night out, 'but don't drink too much'. This kind of personal touch makes the tube great and makes the DLR seem dull and cold and robotic.
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The employees who apparently earn £40,000+ have no idea what its like working for private companies. If we went on strike every-time we had a good moan we'd be out there looking for a new job. Stop holding London to ransom we are very sick, fed-up and loosing patience with you. Have you any idea what its like telling our bosses "sorry we're late, TFL again!". God I hope down the line we do have driverless train. Going on strike when we are all trying to hold on to ur jobs just is not fair. With your salary you should think how your very lucky. There are tonnes of people out there looking for work.
Only the other day I thought I'd lost my phone and approached a TFL person to ask for help, he laughed, and said well your not going to see that again, how every helpful. If I had spoken to a client in my organisation I would have been in serious trouble.
Stop striking, stop asking for far too many benefits. If I could be guaranteed a car parking space in Victoria I would now rather drive than use the tube.
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What the politicans do not seem to understand is the tube system is a dangerous environment to work and travel in as passengers. Having a qualified driver help when things go wrong
Boris should listen to the people on the ground and make the tube more safe for the Londoners who use the network. We the people of London are the boss, Boris, not Cameron...
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Tube drivers don't just drive trains. If there's a signal failure, mechanical failure, passenger taken ill etc it's part of their training to know what to do in the situation.
Boris Johnson's assertion that 'anybody' could learn to drive a tube train shows he clearly understands very little about what tube drivers actually do.
Or have I missed something and repairing pneumatic brakes, understanding traction current and evacuating a train-load of commuters onto the track has somehow become common knowledge? Before people selfishly lay into tube staff (of which I am not one), we should all take a moment to actually consider how hard the job might be...
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Something needs to be done regarding lots of issues with the tube system, we here constantly about staff reduction on stations, i cant help but notice the amount of staff at Leytonstone station on my way to work who stand by the barrier chatting & drinking tea, quite often there are 2 or 3 last week there were 4 of them , what do these people do at the station dont they realize that most of us would love to have a job like theirs. With regard to driverless trains wouldnt it be heaven when stuck on the tube not to listen to someone who can barely string a sentence together consantly repeating the same thing over and over again
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Thanks for all your comments. Heidi464 - not sure which media you mean.? Here on this site we do appreciate the difference between ASLEF and the RMT Union (and indeed the TSSA). Average salary for a tube driver is 40k I believe. And I've never said ASLEF are constantly on strike - I have though been told today that ASLEF have made no decision yet on whether to meet with Boris Johnson. Don't hold your breath on that meeting happening.
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Never mind tube trains: we have the technology for pilotless aircraft (even at present most of the flight uses the autopilot), Predator drones can target and fire missiles automatically and in Iraq there were trials of robots which looked horribly like terminators http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4199935.stm
A tube train has an accelerator and a brake and can hardly get lost... Boris is spot on that anyone could be trained to drive one in a few weeks, yet tube drivers are paid more than junior doctors and three times more than soldiers.
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Here in Vancouver, all our trains are driverless and nobody has ever gotten hurt because of that. Usually there aren't even attendants on the platforms or trains and we manage fine.
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