Why do south London trains suffer most in the snow?
Post categories: Rail
| 11:31 UK time, Wednesday, 1 December 2010
Why are trains in south London more affected by snow than those elsewhere?
If you think it's train companies in south London that are the worst affected by the weather - you'd be right.
And there is I'm told a technical reason for this.
In south London the companies like Southern Railway, Southeastern and South West Trains have to operate using the "third rail system".
That is, the electricity is transmitted to the train using an electrified third rail that the train picks up through a bit of metal called a shoe.
So, while Network Rail have been running "ghost trains" (empty trains) and de-icing trains through the night there comes a point when it doesn't help.
When the snow and ice hits, if the conductor third rail is cold as soon as snow hits it, it freezes.
That means there's an insulating layer of ice between the shoe and the rail.
Southeastern have told me the trains automatically shut down to prevent "arcing" of electricity - that could damage electrics and is potentially dangerous.
The pertinent point is we are the only country in the world where the third rail system is being used outside an urban area (it's also used on the Tube and has caused problems on the uncovered Metropolitan line in the past).
And why was it introduced?
It was introduced in the 1930s and I've been told it was in the main due to cost as it's cheaper than erecting overhead power lines that we see to the north and east of London.
It also shows why C2C services, for example into Essex which uses overhead power lines, hasn't been as badly affected by similar levels of snow.
According to Wikipedia: "Three lines of five making up the core of Barcelona Metro network changed to overhead power supply from third rail. This operation was also done by stages and completed in 2003.
"The opposite took place in south London. The South London Line of the LBSCR network between Victoria and London Bridge was electrified with catenary in 1909.
"The system was later extended to Crystal Palace, Coulsdon North and Sutton. In the course of main-line third rail electrification in south-east England, the lines were converted by 1929."
Please let me know if you have any thoughts on this. I would be interested to hear from drivers in particular.
Also, I just received this from Association of Train Operating Companies:
National Rail Enquiries (NRE), run by and paid for by train companies, has today set up a dedicated phone hotline to provide passengers with up to date information about disruption caused by snow.The number to call is 08453 017 641.
The hotline, which will allow passengers to choose the train company they travel with and to hear recorded updates about any disruption, comes in addition to the range of services already provided by NRE for passengers, including:
- The NRE website www.nationalrail.co.uk which includes a dedicated disruption page, an overview of all operators' services, and live departure boards of train services
- The automated train tracker service on 0871 200 49 50, which will give passengers up-to-date information about their services
- Twitter updates at @nationalrailenq and an NRE Disruption Facebook page
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~54~RS~)
© 2012
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I also should add that sometimes the weight of snow on the tracks becomes an issue (Network Rail have one snow plough) as does train drivers not being able to turn up for work...
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Interesting article, Tom.
Would I not be right, however, in saying that the DLR uses a sort of third rail system? I know it's not the same, but from my knowledge, it does use the same sort of system. The only major difference seems to be that they collect the electricity from the bottom of the rail, rather than the top - resulting in a reliable service! DLR seems to run when even tube trains can't!
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it took me 8hrs to get from charingx to hastings yesterday evening. No help or information given, you were completely left without hope. Even the tube was closed at charing x so no escape, just like being 'kettled' for no crime other than being a mug commuter who pays out loads of money to be treated like a nuisance...........What's wrong with southern and southeastern, they can't cope with any weather at all?
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@Gareth yes you are right, the DLR has a snow-proof conductor rail.
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When we had a joined up railway system in the late 80s electric trains on what is now South Eastern were able to be assisted in icy weather by diesel locomotives, often Class 33 as these were fully compatible for push pull operation.
This does not happen now as there are fewer locomotives around, they have a different owner and they are generally not compatible with the current types of electric train.
Even the north of London (and further afield) lines with overhead electrification can still have trouble with ice as it can form on the overhead lines and either damage them due to weight or damage the train's current collection pantograph at high speed.
Overhead lines are also prone to wind damage where the third rail has an advantage.
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OK Tom can you explain why Merseyrail, which also uses a third rail system like the old BR Southern Region, doesn't suffer to the same extent?
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queenmalka, if you read the article you would know the answer to your question.
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It seems to me that we have here a train network which tens of thousands of commuters depend upon, that if it snows, is not fit for purpose.
Surely this begs the question "What are they going to do about it"
My money is on slightly less than naff all.
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OK, once and for all lets stop complaining about the Operators. They are private companies that do not do anything unless it gives them a financial payback. They do not give a damn about passengers in conditions like these because they have your season ticket money already and if you don't commute for a few days they have your revenue and don't need to run services, so they win. If you want to complain, complain to the decision makers - the Government and the DfT. If you want better contingency arrangements talk to them and get them to pay for it using either taxes or fares revenue - guess the answer. Average Joe looses whatever the solution - more taxes, more fares or more disruption - CHOOSE.
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Perhaps us passengers wouldn't be so annoyed about it if South Eastern improved their communication with passengers when this happens? If they can't prevent it from happening they can at least do some damage limitation.
No staff at stations, no up to date website information, no departure boards, not even twitter updates from them- someone should tell them we live in the 21st century not the 1930's when it was introduced.
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My complaint is not the train service - I can see from my window that the awful conditions make running any trains at all on my line quite impossible - but the unintelligent way problems were dealt with yesterday. I started my journey homewards yesterday at Cannon Street - they were advising everyone to get to London Bridge, yet the first train going there had the rear five coaches detached!
Then at London Bridge the information systems on the footbridge connecting the platforms showed misleading (and sometimes contradictory) information and few audible announcements were forthcoming. For instance, there was a train stopping at Abbey Wood at platform 4, but the next train there on the master board was only showing a train two hours earlier and "delayed". So people who could have got there, didn't know. On the rare occasions any announcements were made (and not drowned out by "do not leave bags unattended..."), they were so late that nobody could reach the intended platform.
OK, we shouldn't get upset by staff trying to do their best to cope with a difficult situation, but really a bit of intelligence would not have gone amiss!
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National Rail Enquiries, so generously run by and paid for by train companies, are incapable of giving out correct information. After 30 mins on hold to Southeastern last night I tried NRE who first told me that a train I had put an elderly relative of mine on had been cancelled when I saw it leave, then after five minutes of faffing "found it" and told me it was about to arrive (398 minutes late, apparently) when I later discovered it was still stuck without power nowhere near its destination. What is the point of NRE?
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The Charing Cross to Hastings line was electrified in the 80s – that's the 1980s. And still they added a third rail. So Southeastern knowingly bought a franchise with a brand new yet second rate system. Since they know they have less chance of running a service than most when bad weather strikes they might at least, as mrsbarber says, bother to update their website. Or their Twitter stream. Or staff their 'phone rooms. Or do anything that suggests they give a hoot about their captive passengers, sorry customers.
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Number 12
I fully agree Yellowtrouser. The information systems are lousy - they are probably worse than having no information at all.
All the web-sites seem to work perfectly when the services are running smoothly. But the time when regular users need these sites (they know the timetables for a functioning service by heart) are the times when there is disruption - and it is at this very point that the information given is misleading. Many times yesterday afternoon I got onto the Southeastern site and found that the disruption seemed pretty minimal. The odd train here and there was delayed. Had I known what the real situation was, I would have left work much earlier and got home by a different route rather than spending four hours travelling the 15 miles home.
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" Who do south London trains suffer most in the snow?"
Interesting title : )
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It does feel like Southeatern are trying their hardest to protect their "High Speed" services - so as long as you want to go to St Pancras you're ok!! Is it all a PR excercise??
If you want to go to any other station on the network, or shock, the High Speed service doesn't run through your station you're stuck.
Either the rails are iced up or they're not. Or are the new javelin trains technologically advanced??
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What people forget is that for 360 days of the year, the third rail system works fine and is cheaper to install and maintain. Even if the Southern railways did use an overhead system, the general disruption to the transport system (ie roads) caused by snowfall is going to cause problems - there will be staff shortages.
The railway companies cannot justify a large capital investment on overhead power to provide contingency for a few exceptional days, that will be problematic anyway, no matter what.
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Thanks for all the posts. Gareth M - You are right I presume that as it's a more up to date railway the DLR factored in snow. Clearly the designers of teh system in South London did not.
dmccormac - i will try and find it out - my hunch is it is of a similar design to DLR with snow protectors.
medwaylol - The high speed service is overhead lines and it seems it was largely unaffected by the snow this morning. Also won't it doesn't help you are effectively paying for High Speed even if it doesn't stop at your station due to the Inflation+3% formula on that part of the netowrk.
With regards to lack of information and clarity. I notice the Lib Dems on the London Assembly have just put out this: "“Back in January during the two days of snow Southeastern passengers faced a double whammy of a much reduced train service combined with an appalling lack of useful information being provided by the train company.
“Almost a year later it seems Southeastern have failed to actually implement any improvements in communcating with their passengers. Southeastern even accept that they need to make many improvements in how they communicate. Clearly their planned improvements have also faced delays on the line. If Southeastern cannot maintain a full train service at the very least it must keep its passengers fully updated about the reduced service they are currently providing, starting with far more accurate and useful information being provided on their website. "
Looking at these responses, much work for southeastern there I think...
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Off topic I know, but if this North South high speed line goes ahead, I do hope they build it with Maglev. I hear it is much less likely to stop with heavy snow or ice.
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19. At 3:58pm on 01 Dec 2010, FeedTheGoatAndHeWillScore wrote:
Off topic I know, but if this North South high speed line goes ahead, I do hope they build it with Maglev. I hear it is much less likely to stop with heavy snow or ice.
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Third rail spread throughout the south because of compatibility issues, no point in having connecting lines running on differing systems.
For the same reason HS2 needs to allow the running of through trains from and to standard railways as well as HS1. Therefore no Maglev.
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There have always been snow and ice problems with the third rail system. However the trains used across the 'Southern Railway' and 'Southern Region' prior to the present fleets were very crude electrically, and so, by and large, pretty robust. The present fleets are much more 'electronic', and so more liable to be disrupted by snow and other out-of-course problems.
Variants of the present fleets are also used on overhead wired parts of the system, where they are better able to cope. However the overhead wiring can give extensive problems due to heat, wind or just old age [ periods in the hot weather when the East Coast main line comes to a stop], so its not all one way.
The original more robust fleets would also come to a halt. I recollect a snowy day when one long distance "Nelson" unit broke in half as it came to a stop in my station. When the weather was very bad, I used to select the slow trains, which were made up of two-coach units with a pick-up on each coach [ rather than 4 coach with two pickups ]- they kept going quite well.
But, as someone else pointed out, 'in those days' there was an ample supply of steam or diesel locomotives that would couple to failed electric units and drag them home. The new stock will only couple to itself, and there are few diesel locos left in the south, even if they would couple.
DfT has [ or had] in its specification for their new long distance electric trains the building in of standby diesel generators that can move the trains slowly in case of electrical failure. That would be handy for the commuters south of the Thames also, but it's not on the agenda. Pester our MP's ?????
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Yes, the current weather is disrupting travel, but travel is regularly disrupted on lines leaving Victoria. There are very frequent signalling problems. Is there a reason for this? I have heard rumours of theft of cable being a cause but would be interested to know if that is true and if so, what action is being taken.
In terms of communication, why is it that the websites, station staff, announcement boards and telephone enquiry lines are misleading, inaccurate or just plain wrong but the chap who sells coffee at my local station has very accurate and up-to-date information?
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Tom, thanks for looking into this but Merseyrail's 3rd rail system is the same as BR Southern Region - it's "shoe-on-top" rather than the system the DLR (and the Berlin S-Bahn) uses. Still intriguing though.
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In all this disruption, please remember that train crew and station staff are as much in the dark as you. However, if the bosses of the TOCs ever bothered to talk to them they could learn many cheap and easy ways to avoid problems. A simple example is that later evening services on the Ore line are terminated at T Wells - a great little cost-saver for the TOC - but the **** who drew up the timetable forgot that it takes time to remove the sleeping passengers and the trains then had to cross the tracks to the sidings, disrupting the rest of the late peak services. Local staff are well aware of the source of the problem but powerless to get things changed.
I have heard train crew almost crying with frustration as they made inadequate announcements based on little or no information. I suspect that they fear for their jobs if they are as honest as they could be.
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Re the system in use on DLR, it is 'driverless' and is based on a 'moving block' track control system that works well on light rail systems in other countries. In UK, however, Her Majesty's Inspectorate of railways insisted on further 'safety' measures that ensured that the line would grind to a halt if the location of a train was 'lost' by the electronic monitoring system for the shortest period of time. Naturally a stationary 'lost' train could never be 'found' unless manually manoeuvred by train crew. In order to provide anything like a reliable service, all sorts of work-arounds needed to be invented. Welcome to the ship of fools (sorry, mixed metaphor).
A propos of snow but not railways, an apparently well-informed man told me that the reason why East Sussex roads are in such a state is that the Council, which has plenty of salt, has not released it to the gritting teams. If true, people should be sacked and without compensation. Let's see if any culprits suffer as much as us mugs.
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I set out this morning at 8.00 having checked the live departures board on the internet as advised which told me trains were running and that whilst there were some delays they were getting through. got to the station to find that the 5.50am train was still showing up as delayed. No timescales, no information, no help at all from train staff! Luckily I only live a 10 minute walk from the station but the station was full of others without that luxury. This is not on, with the internet and technology today there really is no excuse for not being able to at least update the website with accurate information.
Yesterday was the same story in Redhill, on minute the train was coming albeit very late, the next minute it was delayed and so on and so forth. There really is no excuse, they know if a train has left the previous stations so why cant they update the paying customer!! They really treat us with contempt all because we have no competition and no choice as to which train company to use. Is a disgrace.
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Its just taken me 5 hours to get from London Bridge to Tunbridge wells, the Southeastern staff admitted that the passengers knew more than them,about whether the trains were running, there were no updates, the Southeastern website said two trains an hour, when I 'phoned National rail enquiries the person there said the trains were running and admitted he was getting that infornmation from the Southeastern website.
as they have a monopoly we have no choicebut to travel with them,
How can they justify the increases infares.
What a shambles.roll on tomorrow.
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I agree with JROrpington. I was also stuck at London Bridge yesterday afternoon. After being told that an Orpington train was on Platform 5 then one suddenly turning up on platform 1, by the time a group of us had fought our way through the crowd the doors had shut on the train which was half empty & pulled out not waiting for us.
After 1hr 30mins I ended up on a train to Sidcup & walking to Orpington. The communication at London Bridge was terrible. What a difference this morning when I foolishly decided to try & get into work. The honesty of the staff at St Mary Cray Station who admitted they didn't have accurate information as to when the first train to London would be arriving at the staion but they continually kept everyone up to date & regularly telling people to ignore the timetable board on the concourse.
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South west trains outer services as far as weymouth (on third rail) have been great and were even running, albeit reduced services in february. Why? because the trains are made in germany where they have winters and are suitably winterised. The service on southern and south eastern has been poor for more years than many will remember and i suspect its more bad management and bad trains rather than the weather.
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First Capital Connect (Thameslink) use both 3rd rail (south of Farringdon) and overhead (north of Farringdon). Just look at the current emergency timetable. Dispite the line being operational between Sutton and Bedford FCC has split the route by one section using overhead and the other 3rd rail. It appears the 3rd rail is unreliable during various conditions not just wintry conditions. In the summer period it is common to hear delays on the FCC route due to lineside fires in parts that use 3rd rail.
Also worth pointing out London Underground use 3rd line but do they suffer as much as franchise railway operator routes?
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you see, if you had steam, you wouldnt get this problem.
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#23 Does Merseyrail just have better weather.
Possibly there is less very cold weather and less snow. I have lived in the SouthEast and my sister does at present, I certainly have such a subjective feeling. I currently live near to the Merseyrail Northern line.
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I tried to get out of Faversham this morning but the ordinary trains weren't moving and the high speed was using its batteries because the third rail was iced over. I gave up when I saw a member of staff get off the train to go to the staff room for a cup of tea. Even he didn't know what was going on, but sussed that he's have time for a cuppa.
Yet... The web site made it seem like everything was operating as normal with a few minor delays. Hopeless. Just when you really need up to the minute information it's completely wrong.
The rail companies really need to improve their communication in situations like this. They must have GPS on all the trains, so they can make that information public and we can have the information to judge whether to attempt a journey in to work.
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It is pathetic, most countries in Europe and Scandinavia cope perfectly well with this weather. It is not extreme it's called Winter : it is known as a season !! Get the equipment in and get on with it, like what most people north of Watford usually do. London and the South East is entrenched in a dependency culture, very evident now; they will not even sweep their own doorstep !! Wake up and get on with it !!
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Seems to me that trains using the third rail system in the UK should be equipped with powerful roller brushes and blowers to clear the conductor rail, if all the trains had this system (on every carriage) the rails would stay clear. Failing that, they should have tanks of de-icer that they spray as they travel as this sort of thing hapens often enough to think about 'winter adpations' like this??
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Tom - you are being far too lenient on South Eastern.
There were parts of south east London where there was no new snow yesterday but still virtually no trains ran.
And this is completely because South Eastern don't try.
I understand they may not be able to get a train all the way to Sevenoaks.
But they could have run trains over the parts of the route which were clear.
They simply don't bother. The staff are ill-informed and generally unhelpful, the stations are grotty, even the trains are grim.
And we're all facing a 12% fare increase from a 'High Speed' line which benefits no-one in the wilds of Zone 2 where I live.
It's not as though we have a choice here. South Eastern are the only train company in my area and they are genuinely terrible.
I suggest you send some very hard questions to South Eastern's MD Charles Horton and his colleagues and stop believing their tripe about the third rail.
The third rail IS an issue. But it is not the only issue. Incompetence, unwillingness and a genuine disregard for passengers also play their part. Mr Horton could do something about that - for the third year in a row he's failed to.
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I agree that the service given by South Eastern and Southern railways is, quite frankly, rubbish. Strategic decisions made in the past about new rolling stock and electrification have been made without winter robustness in mind.
I'm amazed, though, by the people who manage to complain about fare increases in one breath and the lack of winter weather equipment in the other. Buying more de-icing and snow removing equipment needs money. Where will this money come from? In the current financial climate, you can bet it won't be from central government.
We could have a railway system like the Swiss. We'd have to spend a lot of money to get it, though.
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Zal - I understand what you are saying and the communication is undoubtedly an issue and as many commuters have told me they don't have much respect for southeastern as an operator. However all I was trying to explore was why the high speed services can run fine (yesterday) and the rest of the services cannot and there the technicals play a part. No doubt many hard questions will be asked of South eastern including from the Transport Secretary. Anyway thanks for posting and I appreciate the feedback. Best tom
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I disagree completley. I was born and lived in New York most of my life now in London. Many of our subway lines run in a cut open to the elements. The train nearest my home when I was young still does for about 4 miles. I remeber days where we received a meter or more of snow and the trains run. The Long Island Railroad mostly runs outside for a hood 40 miles runs on a third rail and rarely had this problem.
More important in many places like New York I have rarely seen an airport closed because of 8 inches of snow. I have never seen a street in London Plowed just gritted. No one shovels snow from in front of there business or home. In New York you have 12 hours afetr the snow stops or your fined.
I love London more than any place I have ever lived but it is time to come into the 20th or 21st Century.
My favorite line when I have asked how come no Airconditioning in the summer was we rarely get that warm. You do and you get cold.
Finally I remember many days in New York where the tem reached -22 F or 32 C.
Regardless I would rather live here than anywhere else on Earth. Thanks for letting me
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The continued use of the '3rd Rail' system on much of the former BR Southern Region should be urgently reviewed. Whilst cheaper to instal, the 3rd rail electrification system is clearly vulnerable to minor wintry weather. I believe it may also hinder some aspects of routine track maintenance and it's very presence when enegised (at 650/750v) poses a constant danger to staff - and arguably passengers.
The use of 3rd rail cannot be appropriate on a modern urban rail system serving the capital. Instead of High Speed Links elsewhere consideration should instead be given to abandoning the '3rd Rail' system in favour of the overhead line (OHL) 25,000 volts system as used on lines from Liverpool St, Kings Cross, St Pancras, Euston & Paddington. The OHL 'contact wire' can occasionally become iced up and where the supporting masts are not sufficiently closely spaced can also be vulnerable to high winds but they appear to have a far higher reliability factor. Conversion of the SR to OHL would have to be done on a line by line basis, perhaps beginning with Victoria - Brighton to enable the benefits to tbe shared by the Thameslink (FCC) services running south of the river.
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@40 - I remember vaguely reading in the "why is it taking so long?" part of the Thameslink programme website that one of their 'explanations' is the need for trains to transition seamlessly from overhead to third rail. Change to OHL all the way through, and you'd take away their excuse - how could you live with yourself? :)
One thing that is totally inexcusable - and for which I cannot come up with ANY reasonable explanation - is for National Rail Enquiries to be giving out misleading information, for SouthEastern staff to be giving out misleading information, for station display boards to be wrong. Tell you what - tell the rail operators that as a condition of franchise they MUST publish timetables and real-time train running info for all services on all routes and free of charge, and see how many hours it takes for suitable sites to become available. Bet you it's less than a day before the first demo's are out there.
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hi. Iam a driver for southern trains. Toms article is interesting and accurate.
Unfortunately, money talks again. As mentioned the third rail system was 'cheaper' to install and cheaper to maintain that the overhead 25kv lines.
It is very practical, as in South London we do have a very complicated rail system. People, I think, sometimes don't realise how complex it is, and how many people we have to carry, and how many stations we have etc.
The biggest two negatives of a conductor rail are 1) safety, a live 750v rail at ground level, and 2) Ice and Snow!
One remedy in these conditions at the moment would be a 'heated' conductor rail. I believe that this has been tried and tested somewhere, but once again it comes down to money.
Our 'newer' class 377 trains (the same as southeastern (class 375), as mentioned, have a system where they cut out to prevent arcing and sparking, as the trains draw more electricity for air conditioning and heating etc. Unfortunately this 'cutting out' doesnt help in severe conditions when the trian will just continually cut out and not move at all!
My last point is aimed at posters who are suggesting that the train companies just 'cannot be bothered' to run trains etc. use your loafs. This is not in anyones interests. They are doing their best with the resources avaliable.
Finally, we must not forget that drivers and other staff have to 'get to work' to be able to run a service. If this is difficult then obviously the service will be affected.
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purebrazil, the costs of replacing the entire 3rd rail network with OHL would be absolutely astronomical!!!!
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@driversouthern - thankyou for useful 'inside' view; and I'm absolutely certain you're 100% correct about the amazing costs of converting to OHL. My gripe isn't with companies "not bothering" to run services, it's with train companies that can't be bothered - and it really is can't be bothered - to provide up-to-date information. It's simply not credible that they don't know the location and status of the trains; once they have that data, converting it to passenger information can't be that difficult. The whole "not bothering to run services" thing clearly doesn't apply in this sort of weather and neither should people expect the ordinary timetable - unless National Rail Enquiries tells them the normal times - as it WAS doing on Tues - in which case it is absolutely reasonable to expect normal times.
Slightly off-topic: When the weather's normal though, say a few weeks back when on one particular Sunday there was no SouthEastern service on the Greenwich line, you surely must agree it is not reasonable to charge normal fares when they aren't running normal services? Ticket machine says "thankyou for your money, here's your ticket", then a poster that's not visible from ticket machine says "by the way, we won't be running trains today on the line for which you just bought a ticket, and the ticket machines won't give refunds. Ka-ching!" The train companies really can't expect to get much sympathy about their difficulties in exceptional circumstances, when in normal circumstances they are getting away with that kind of thing, surely?
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@veop i understand what you are saying about the ticket machine. This is probably a result of privatisation. Lets face it, the rail operators are a business there to make money. They will mostly do the bare minimum required by the rail regulator and atoc. if they are allowed to take full fare for a replacement bus service or no trains, they will. Maybe something should be done higher up by govt. I agree its not good enough.
Similar thing with that lack on information. There are too many lines to go through from the people who make the decisions to the passenger, and it doesnt help that the decision makers are in an 'office' rather than on site on stations etc. I know it sounds lame but there are so many elements to the train service going up the wall and the lack of information. Staff displacement and stock displacement is another major one. Not knowing exactly when a line will be open again is another. I can assure that you though that the decision makers and information staff are working their socks off... maybe there aren't enough of them? ah, that subject of money, and the company doing the bare minimum again!!
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@driversouthern - to be honest, as a passenger, I don't really care whether it's privatisation, or too many layers of management, or too many elements: it's the train service as a whole, and therefore everyone involved in providing it, that slips up when passengers are not given accurate and up-to-date info, especially in weather like this. Please note I'm not saying there aren't problems caused by privatisation, or too many layers of management or different companies, or indeed militant unionism (eg strikes in preference to negotiation over the tube earlier in the week), it's just that the average person trying to get to or from work doesn't really care that much. Give them duff info about whether a train is going to run or not, especially when it's snowing on their head, and they'll care about that :)
I'm sure the people on the station were working very hard - but if they didn't -know- for certain that given services were going to run, they shouldn't have been telling people "they are, they're just delayed". That's just common sense. In terms of layers of management, why are there any layers of people at all involved in one computer network (the control system) telling another computer network (the station displays) what's happening? If, as you say and as seems incredibly likely, the TOCs are doing the minimum possible to comply with the regulator and ATOC, then the requirements on the regulator and ATOC need to be tightened; that doesn't change the fact that people were misinformed.
What will be really interesting to see is if any of the TOCs, or the regulator, has the self-confidence to appoint a committee of passengers (after all, the passengers will include civil/elec/mech engineers, IT people, other technical trades and representatives of most of the other relevant specialities) to investigate what could be done better, at a reasonable cost (to be borne out of the recently announced fare increases). I think we both know the answer to that one! ;)
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Well said veop. The frustrating thing is that which is within the remit of the TOCs, ie the information. The weather and (to a high degree) the ability to run trains might very well be outside their control, but silly things like having the "Do not leave parcels and bags unattended" messages blaring over the top of the (very few) station announcements at London Bridge is well within their remit. Likewise I would rather have heard the announcement for the Orpington train in enough time to reach it, rather than being informed that the platforms were wet and slippery (yes, I had worked that one out for myself!)
There could also have been a public safety issue on the London Bridge footbridge on Tuesday, because there were passengers trying very hard to push through crowds to reach their (often non-existent) trains. It really needed a member of staff on the footbridge to set up a one-way system to ensure circulation.
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@veop. Agree. I do hope that something comes out of this, i.e a big investigation.
i heard rumours that after heavy snowfall in the 80s, investment for a couple of snowploughes were given for the south, but after a few non snowy winters those snowploughs were sent to scotland!
The information side of it can improve there is no doubt of it. Its probably much better to not give out information than to give duff information.
This is really bad timing after the fare increases and investment announcement. I'm sure passengers would prefer improvements for the winter be made rather than new carriages.....at least trains would be running! Maybe some of the invested money should be diverted accordingly.
I did always believe that the older trains didn't have to go, as we in the south are a commuter railway rather than a 'luxury' railway. Im sure many people today wouldn't mind an old drafty banger train arriving, at the cost of an air conditioned shiny train breaking down!
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I've just heard from one of the transport unions.
The RMT Union's claiming that one of the contributory factors for the problems is that not the right amount of deicer was used by the "mobile patrols" in Kent.
The Union also says the mobile patrols contract in Kent was contracted out to the firm DB Schenker last year and as part of that the number of staff were cut as were the frequencies of the deicing patrols. The RMT Union want a full investigation and the mobile patrols brought back in house.
I have contacted Network Rail (who I have to say were unsurprisingly sceptical about the allegations) and am awaiting its official response.
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The Question also has to asked is Where is the snow blower that Network South East bought for the type of weather we are having in the South East. The second question that has to be asked is Why are the diesel locomotives not pulled off of freight trains to assist the passenger trains on the Southern? Network South East cancelled all of the freight trains in the south in the 80's so that they could use the deisel locomotives could be used to assist the passenger trains. The trains on the southern can pull enough power from the third rail for heating but not enough to power the traction motors.
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@Chris i think that snowblower went to scotland because of a good few years of no heavy snow in the south...a big problem with having very inconsistant weather! You can see from a financial point of view why this happened.
When train after train is stuck, freight locos may not be able to get to the broken down train in question. ALso, freight traffic is very low in the south, the last few depot which had diesel locos in the south in the 80s (Hither Green, Stewarts Lane and eastleigh)have closed. There are not enough locos around.
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@driversouthern/48 and @tomedwards/49 - the point being, things aren't right. Put the politics to one side and get the one special interest group that matters and that all the others should be putting first - the passengers - to look into things. I'm fairly sure that if Network Rail and the TOCs actually put out an appeal for qualified passengers to sit on a genuinely independent and apolitical panel to look at potential improvements, there would be more than enough volunteers. I'm also sure that quite a few companies wouldn't mind staff taking time to assist, if it means a more reliable service and therefore more efficient workforce in the future :)
@JLOrpington "silly things like having the "Do not leave parcels and bags unattended" messages blaring over the top of the (very few) station announcements" - my favourite bugbear (after thieving ticket machines, obviously!) is "our staff are entitled to work without fear of verbal assault etc" but when asked for comments on station environment, if you put "there should also be a poster saying our passengers are entitled to clean trains that run according to the advertised timetable", Network Rail strike the comments from their site as being "inappropriate and/or abusive".
If an independent website was out there for people to suggest ideas, would people contribute - on an apolitical basis? Or do you think it would rapidly descend into "well if they hadn't outsourced it the universe would be perfect" vs "well if they didn't keep going on strike to resist change blah blah" ? I think I can guess the answer to that one, too :(
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as a New Yorker, when i am ridding the rails around London, i feel "at home" because of the extent of third rail. here in New York, the subways and PATH, formerly the Hudson Tubes, are third rail. in addition, the
electrified sections of the Long Island Rail Road are third rail. the Metro North lines that run out of Grand Central, formerly the New York Central and the New Haven, are third rail. the New Haven switches to overhead at New Rochelle when it merges with the Amtrak Northeast Corridor which is overhead. Amtrak/New Jersey Transit is the only overhead in New York City as it enters and leaves Pennsylvania Station. New Jersey and Philadelphia has a lot of overhead because the lines were built by thw Pennsylvania, Erie-Lackawanna, and the Reading.
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@veop - agree with all your points there..
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Chiltern Rail seem to manage Ok with diesel multiple units - why can't they be used for the southern lines? Their trains run parallel to the Metropolitan line coming into Marylebone and don't seem to suffer from the snow like the overground Underground. Are they much more expensive than putting in overhead cables?
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Seems like a popular topic, I am not connected in anyway to Network Rail or the TOCs in question but my observations are:
* Predicting the length of delays is notoriously difficult because no one really knows for certain how long it will take to fix the faulty train, apart from the poor souls out in the snow carrying out the work. Who obviously want to get the thing moving ASAP.
* Different layers of management: as the Southern driver has observed, the network is very convoluted, several depots which requires multiple maintenance crews, train operators, station staff, group station managers etc to get the whole 24 hour operation working like clockwork. If one decision is taken in one part of the operation, it will have implications on the rest. So during major disruption it is not always straightforward to cascade up-to-the-second information to staff spread over a wide geographic area.
* Having said that, it should be possible for a central team to broadcast SMS messages to customer service teams and National Rail enquiries. And to have the functionality on ticket vending machines to broadcast a severe weather message to warn passengers before starting a new transaction.
* The public should take a reality pill. If you're struggling through the snow outside your front door then so are the railway staff. If your car is frozen over then so are the points on the track and the equipment in the railway depots. Yes it would be fab to have heated points and conductor rail everywhere but there are hundreds of kilometres of track and how many days per year does this amount of snow fall? The business case stinks, everyone from TOCs, Network Rail and government knows this. So they are prepared to put up with the complaints in the media because they know in a few weeks time it will be old news and something else will occupy the headlines.
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Just got this from network rail re rmt accusations of lack of de-icer:
“There is no truth to these claims. DBS have being doing a good job in very difficult conditions to keep as many routes open as possible. They are treating more mileage than usual, with the same anti-icing fluid and vehicle set-up as in previous years, a task they’ve been undertaking for around three years. Passengers have had a tough day today; the RMT’s misguided attempts to lay blame helps no-one.”
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Southern Railways will be on BBC London at 1830 BBC1 as will Transport Secretary Phillip Hammond.
If you watch it - let me know what you think ...
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@Sharon "So during major disruption it is not always straightforward to cascade up-to-the-second information to staff spread over a wide geographic area." I disagree to an extent: once the information is known to one person, it is very easy to distribute across a wide geographic area. That's the easy bit. At a much smaller scale, a client just called to ask for a message to go out cancelling a meeting this evening: once we had the list of message recipients the SMS was gone and the first 70-100 delivery receipts were back within one minute. As I said, at a -much- smaller scale, but it only took a couple of minutes and if the destination list had been preset it would've taken less than that. Easy.
"The public should take a reality pill"? Really? After being duff info by railway company staff that in some cases lead to people being stuck on trains overnight? Surely it's obviously better to say nothing, or say "I don't know" than to give out bad info?
The business case for up-to-date and accurate travel info does not and will never "stink", it's such an easy thing to achieve that it is inexcusable if that is not done and yet fares continue to rise. No matter what the weather or whether (sorry) there's snow outside, telling people whether the trains are running on time is a fairly basic thing to do. People will understand just fine if trains are delayed because of the weather, and do not need a 'reality pill' to remind them of that. What they do need is to have confidence in the information provided by railway companies and staff, which right now I doubt few have. (My previous point about ticket machine transactions was in no way weather-related, it was some weeks ago, by the way).
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@ sharon, spot on.
@ rayworld. It would be too expensive to replace all the trains, and the enviromentalists would go mad with 400 more trains pumping out diesel fumes!
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Sharon
Why does it cost more to give out incorrect information than correct information?
I don't think I am being unrealistic regarding the running of the trains.
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Msg 61
I got that all wrong - should have been why does it cost more to give out correct rather than incorrect information.
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I can thoroughly understand the difficulties passengers are facing in this weather but with such a dis-jointed organisation is it not any wonder? Network Rail operates for itself supposedly keeping lines clear. The train companies have absolutely no control over Network Rail which doesn't surprise me as they have little control over themselves if something goes wrong like lots of snow. We have almost a national crisis on our rails and yet they seem to think that keeping luggage with you is far more important than keeping you informed. Time for a re-think - I think!
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@JLOrpington - 61/62 I think you'll find they both cost the same. One of them is helpful though :)
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@ Veop and Orpington: I said it *should* be possible to SMS customer service teams. Not sure why you think I said otherwise. I can totally understand why the lack of information is frustrating.
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As one of those poor souls who has to provide information to customers I must say there are a lot of people here who tend to take information for granted in this "information age." While there are of course improvements that could be made to information systems what people need to remember is that it's not always possible to provide up-to-the-minute information even with all the will in the world. If a train is stuck somewhere and it's not moving and there's a tailback of trains building up behind it then then then until the problem has been resolved there's not a lot that can be said. How long will it take? How long is a piece of string?
A lot of people are ranting that we're worse than a third world country - I wasn't aware that many third world countries had such extensive transport infrastructure in place for things to even be able to go wrong but in any case no the grass is not always greener on the other side, there are large parts of Europe where the transport has been badly impacted just as bad as we have. Are we so worse off than other countries? One time when there were delays at work (unrelated to weather) a passenger asked me how long they were. I told her they were severe delays of 20-30 minutes. She laughed and told me she was from Italy and that 20 minutes was nothing, in Italy a severe delay was 2 hours and not at all uncommon.
On the issue of the third rail - it's actually a very reliable system for 360 days of the day and ideal for the shorter distance services typical of the South East. OHLE has its downsides as well, one of them being that lines are susceptible to coming down in high winds. Look at how many days of the year services on the East Coast Mainline are affected by severe delays due to the overhead lines coming down. Granted the ECML is more prone to this than other lines because of cost-cutting by British Rail in the 1980s by it's still a problem anywhere.
And as for replacing the third rail with OHLE it's not just as simple as saying throw money at it and get it done, tunnels, footbridges and road bridges alike would all have to be rebuilt to provide the room for OHLE.
Just converting the Brighton Mainline would involve many months of closues to the many miles of tunnels along the line - which means bus replacement services. In fact the length of the closures would probably amount to the same accumulative amount of time lost to bad weather over 100 years.
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PS. When I say people tend to take information for granted I don't mean to sound dismissive of peoples frustrations, I've been in these same situations myself and can understand how bad it can be, the point I was trying to make is that providing up to date information is not always as simple as many people think it to be...
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@ Mark i agree with most of that, especially the 'grass isnt always greener' comment. I was delayed on a train from Brussels to Amsterdam last week for 1 hour. got no reason or apology for any of the delay, and the only train ever got in germany...that was 2 and a half hours late...
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@Mark/67 - I realise it's not always as simple to get information as it could be, but once someone - anyone - has the information, distributing it is extremely easy. You're right, the grass certainly is not greener all the time; unlike driversouthern I haven't had an opportunity to use trains in Germany so I can't comment on that. I've been on commuter trains in New England - never again. On the other hand I have used trains in Tokyo, where the last time I was there the display boards for some commuter services (covering same sort of distance as say, Victoria to E Croydon) showed "train due in" down to the nearest 30s, accurately.
It's clearly not a problem to disseminate that sort of information quickly once it's known. As to who should know it, that's one of the things that needs to be looked at - if those that do know things aren't telling the passenger-facing people such as you, then surely that's just wrong, and makes things harder for you. Someone, somewhere in the rail network must know if a particular train is stuck, can tell a control room and that control room can tell you exactly what is stuck where, so you can at least tell people what's happening rather than just the boards saying "delayed".
My bigger issue / concern is the people who were given incorrect information: whether at Lon Br on Tues night (where many people were told delay to see trains cancelled, some people were told wrong platforms, others were told train cancelled only to watch said train pulling in to a platform they just couldn't get to in time), or by National Rail Enquiries at 5pm on Tues still giving out normal timetables. That is what is unacceptable. Lack of joined up corporate structure is not a reason for lack of joined up information infrastructure, whether that's to getting the display boards right, or making sure you are kept up-to-date so passengers don't give you a hard time - yes, I know some always will, but most of us won't if you're being told what's going on and you can tell us! :)
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I completely agree with .17, why would the government spend billions of money on a contingency plan when we only have extreme weather for all of 5 days of the year! Hello... god imagine the whinging everyone would do if suddenly taxes were raised in order to fund this!! The government would be crucified!! I do agree that information should be more widely available, however, the public in London are lemmings, they would follow what the person in front were doing anyway!!! Why can’t everyone just go with it, enjoy some home/family time whilst you all can!!!
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also @veop, if a member of staff at the station is given information and led to believe it is correct by someone else who is led to believe it is correct and he gives the passingers that information how is it thier fault that they are giving duff information out? use your head!!! also, if 100 people are asking the same person when their train is heading to 100 different destinations not necessarily on the same line and them trying to find out correct information from whoever they are speaking with on their walkie talkies, come on, your telling me you can do a better job?? Get off your high horse!!
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@nuttpea - suggesting train companies keep display boards up to date is not being on a high horse, it's expecting normal 21st century systems. While you're right, the people on walkie-talkies (I mean come on, that itself is a laugh) cannot possibly be expected to keep track of everything, why is it too much to expect that the automated systems actually work? Anyway - you've also missed the point that I said people given incorrect information, not people told incorrect information: I meant display boards, National Rail Enquiries & TrainTracker txt more than the people on the platforms - none of the automated systems has an excuse for false info. Saying "due to weather we don't know" as a default response in these circumstances is just fine: NRE telling people normal timetable as late as Tuesday evening, when it clearly wasn't - you're happy with that, are you?
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71
Why then (footbridge at London Bridge again) does the indicator board at the entrance to platform 5 show "Orpington in three minutes" when the master board between platforms four and five shows "next train to Orpington 2 hours ago "delayed""?
Is it too much to expect that they show the same info?
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I can't understand why we don't have locomotives that run on electricity most of the time but have an emergency Diesel engine as well, so they cna switch? I cna understand points being frozen or snowed in. It happens. I can't understand why no up to date information is available to front line staff. If they don't get the correct info, they cannot pass it on to customers and then customers get angry and it's the front line staff that gets the frustration shouted at. I think a lot of them need re-training as well. Saying "I don't know" is not a problem! It is better than lying. If you don't know what's happening, say so. It's understandable in the circumstances and I am sure you will let us know as soon as you DO know.
Can I please also say a heartfelt thanks to the station staff at Redhill Station? The guy who had the megaphone was brilliant, passing information on as soon as he had it and even shouting it over to the bus stop and McD opposite the station, so passengers didn't have to keep walking back and forth. He was calm, helpful and managed to control everything with a smile.
I think we really need to look into dual-fuel locomotives. Either 3rd rail and overhead or 3rd rail and diesel. That would really help in all conditions (unless of course the rails are under so much snow that nothing goes anymore). And it is time, that every passenger will be entitled to refunds if their train is delayed, diverted or cancelled. Not just if 10% of trains during a month are delayed. I really do not care if the 3am service is on time, I need MY train to be there when I expect it. No excuses for snow or bad weather, if this happens, the train companies will just have to give refunds. We lose out money when we don't get to work, why should they be excused. And that may mean that shareholders wont get as much divident. Cool, maybe they can then put pressure on the companies to improve services.
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During the emergency time table i waited at Lee for a train on Wednesday. Two came by and DID NOT STOP even though they were only half full. Two more stopped by they were so full nobody could get on.
During the emergency timetable Southeastern should make fast trains stop to pick up passengers. Also because all the trains start outside london they are full up by the time they get into inner London. They should start some trains further in to help people at stations like Lee.
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So we can use train sets powered by the third rail - why not hook up a diesel loco at the front and use the 'train driver' to control the doors?
BTW this is a rhetorical question ,I already know the answer, this would eat into the bosses bonuses.
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While I will not defend some of the actions of the TOCs, there is another side to the story of course. My husband works on the trains and the staff have had as much trouble as anyone else in getting to work. Remember, if you cannot drive in the snow, neither can they! At one station in the south east, only 6 out 80 staff managed to get in on one day.
My husband walked over 2 miles through snow a foot deep to reach our closest station, on the understanding that a shuttle service was running, only to be told he had to walk to the next one, another 4 miles away. By the time he got there his shift would have been almost over. And of course he couldn't get on a train, they were not running even though he was told they were.
If you need to blame someone then blame the managers. Lay off the people you can see...it's not their fault and if they don't pass on information to you, it's simply because they have not been told what is happening.
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@Megachef: sounds like your husband had a rough day.
The point I've been trying to make - which so many people are just ignoring (thanks JLOrpington & southerndriver for understanding my poor explanations) is that we do all accept the people facing the passengers aren't always given accurate info. That doesn't make it right, but there has to be the proviso that if they aren't given trustworthy info, they shouldn't pass out info: for example, the poor people at Lon Br the other night who were told a train was cancelled only to watch it pull out of the adjacent platform two mins after they walked down the slope - it's a vague possibility that they might have been happier not to have been told it was cancelled. If the people passengers have to trust for info are themselves given wrong info, that is not on; it leaves them believing info they shouldn't, passing it on to people who then believe it but shouldn't, and so on. Hurts everyone apart from the person who is the source of the information, who one could argue is the one that should be hurt ...
The point is, the automated display boards being wrong is not acceptable: even less acceptable is different displays in different parts of the same station saying different things. If the automated systems are sorted out and kept up-to-date, it's trivial to extend those to get info to people such as your husband, and it may even have been possible to avoid his extra 4 mile hike the other morning by getting info to him in advance. This is not only a point that applies in extreme weather, as many of the points on here obviously are, it's a point that applies year-round. An efficient and accurate information service surely can't hurt anyone, as I tried to say previously.
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Alot of posts on here are mentioning possible solutions to the problem....dual powered locomotives etc. Southern, Southeastern and South West Trains have a total of about 800 trains, money would be a massive issue to build 800 locomotives. they are probably £750,000 each....who would pay!!
And repeating what a previous poster says, the staff at ground level often dont get told what is happening either.....gotta have some sympathy for them.
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Bubble Works Blog 74 asks about dual fuel locomotives. The 'Southern' used to have these - they were class 73ED (Electro-diesels) and were the orginal Gatwick Express power. I have had the privelege of driving one in preservation but the Diesel engine is massive for only about 650HP available at the rail - under Electric operation they could produce around 1800HP, enough to pull 8 carriages. They were technically very complex to be able to run under both power sources - aggravated by also having dual brake capability - old fashioned vacuum and more modern air. If not operated regularly in both modes, changeover could be unreliable. Akin to not driving your car for a month and then finding the battery is flat!
Another problem, not just confined to snow, is the preference for lighter trains and lower axle loadings (the weight at the point of contact between the wheel and rail per pair of wheels). I think modern stock is around 7 tonnes, old 'slam door' was 9+ tonnes, and an Express Steam Engine anything from 18 to 22 tonnes. That is why steam trains rarely got stuck on wet rails!! However, the downside is that higher axle loadings require sturdier rail construction and also wear the rails out more quickly requiring rail replacement more frequently.
Another, unrelated, point. I now live in France where many of the rail lines run with NO lineside fencing (overhead power, of course). You can park your car, walk 5 metres and, if you're stupid enough, walk on to the tracks. But we don't get people getting killed and there isn't a 'safety' lobby that they are unsafe - they have always been like it and everyone uses common sense - you don't walk on railway tracks any more than you would walk down the middle of a motorway!! It gets my goat when I hear of brits complaing that 'the railways should do more to keep the tracks safe and stop people trespassing' - where is their common sense?
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the information systems are only as good as the information that is unput on them. Throughtout last week there was information on southeasterns website which was not a true reflection of the actual state of the emergency timetable. Trains ran very infrequently, staff didn't know when they were going to run, and a general lack on information was given to customers. I don't blame the station staff for this complete breakdown in communication, they were doing the best with a very very indadequate system. When disruptions occur in the nromal course of events communicaton is bad, but last week it was totally useless, it would have been better if no trains had been run at all rather than the paltry one or two an hour that run if you were lucky, as there was no guarantee that it would complete its journey anyway.
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One perhaps pedantic point; I wouldn't characterise the third rail system as a low-cost second-rate approach. For a new railway being built now, or for electrification of a line where there has been none before, overhead wires are likely to be the cheapest approach because they work at a higher voltage than the third rail. That makes the power supply simpler and cheaper as well as making it cope with faster and more powerful trains. But, as the original piece says, much of the third rail south of London has been there since the 1930s or ealier and the overhead wire systems available then were much more primitive than those that were installed in the 1960s, when the C2C line was electrified.
Incidentally it would be interesting to see any statistics about the overall comparitive reliability of the two systems: I suspect the point made elsewhere about the grass being greener is an important one, and that despite being vulnerable in very cold weather the third rail in general is fairly robust.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I am surprised someone has not developed a system to remove ice from the third rail. Possibly a small attatchment to the underside of the train, or perhaps something very small, but that had its own wheels, and could be pushed ahead of the train.
Something as simple as a set of scrapers &/or counter rotating wheels may do the job ie a mainly mechanical sytem, but coupled with modern monitoring technology.
I imagine costs would be low.
Development costs would be a one off, running costs would be low, capital costs would be miniscule compared to the cost of the train itself or compared to modifying/electifying a section of track.
I know above (comments #42 & #56) heated third rails are mentioned, and although I have not got a clue what technology is used I imagine that would be a more expensive system, at least if the ice problem is only a few days a year.
No doubt this will have been thought of in the past, and dismissed, the diference now, compared with only a few decades earlier, is that there are all sorts of electronic and optical monitoring and control technology that is cheap and reliable.
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