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Kashmir: A good initiative?

Soutik Biswas | 05:13 UK time, Tuesday, 28 September 2010

Anti-India protests in Kashmir

"I think it's a good first step," responded a writer friend from Srinagar after the Indian government announced moves to ease the crisis in Kashmir over the weekend.


On paper, none of the planned measures are spectacularly imaginative or pathbreaking: mediators will be appointed to hold a "sustained dialogue" with all sections of Kashmiri society; young men detained for stone pelting in the anti-India protests will be freed; security will be scaled down; and consideration will be given to whether the controversial Armed Forces Special Powers Act could be withdrawn from some parts of the valley.

Freeing the protestors, many of my friends in the troubled valley say, will have a positive impact. Putting together a group of mediators for a "sustained dialogue" conjures up in India images of never-ending deliberations involving crusty bureaucrats and obdurate politicians. It could also be seen as a sly game at stalling things and tiring the "opposition" out.

Many believe that if meaningful, time-bound fresh negotiations have to begin, bureaucrats and politicians with a lousy track record in the valley should be kept out - one federal minister says the government wants to "talk to anyone who wants to find a solution .. political leaders, social leaders, NGOs, even people with different ideology." Will this really happen?

Scaling down security is a welcome proposition, and will require a bold leap for the authorities. (No Kashmiri will believe it till it begins to happen.) And withdrawing the armed forces law from some areas will be welcomed as a good beginning.

All in all, the initiative looks like a decent bunch of proposals to soothe frayed tempers. It will not be easy to sell it to many Kashmiris, who have looked on hopelessly as over 100 young men and women have lost their lives in the anti-India protests that have rocked the valley in the past three months.

All the more so, because the proposals come on the back of what many have called the "farcical" visit of an all-party delegation of parliamentarians to Srinagar recently. Critics point to the fact that the politicians visited the valley in the middle of a curfew, were isolated in a posh hotel far away from Srinagar, and met only Kashmiris handpicked by the ruling - and largely discredited - National Conference party. Key people were left out. Fortunately, as critic Prem Shankar Jha says, two groups of people refused to follow the script - the media in Srinagar, and some of the parliamentarians themselves who broke away on their own and met and heard some "real Kashmiri voices", including the hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani.


So will Kashmiris embrace the initiative? The separatists appear to have rejected it, insisting that people seek a political solution, not an administrative one. But a lot of things are rotten with the way Kashmir is run, and an administrative fix is in order. The mediators could begin exploring a political solution, unless the 'Kashmir intifada', as many commentators call it, erupts again.

Some Kashmiri friends of mine - and they are a minority in today's surcharged atmosphere - believe that Kashmiris need to get out of what they call is their quixotic and fuzzy romanticism about freedom and independence and get boringly pragmatic. "Let us extract as much autonomy as we can from India and get real about the fact that independence is not a realistic option," they say. Others say the protests will continue till aazadi (freedom) arrives.

But most Kashmiris say they have little faith in feckless federal initiatives and their own isolated, incompetent politicians whom they describe as "puppets" of India. The initiative appears to be a good first step to reach out to people. But will the struggling Congress party-led government walk the talk without messing up further?

Comments

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  • 1. At 07:07am on 28 Sep 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    in worlds most heavily militarised zone, after all tactics of tyranny were tried and exhausted, school children were brought in the line of fire. Their heartfelt desire to go to school after 3 months was portrayed by Indian media as India's victory in kashmir. Young and Tender slave children are left with little options here. 'To school or not to school' is the latest conundrum here

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  • 2. At 07:23am on 28 Sep 2010, BakedBeans wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 3. At 08:30am on 28 Sep 2010, pseudosec wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 4. At 08:46am on 28 Sep 2010, Zer00 wrote:

    @bakhtawar

    worlds most heavily militarised zone is DMZ between North and South Korea. Stop spreading false propaganda!

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  • 5. At 09:10am on 28 Sep 2010, a_ban22 wrote:

    To be fair to the Indian system of democracy, the government machinery is perceived as oppressive in every part of the country. In some places through police excess, in others through economic strangulation, in yet others with draconian laws. In the words of Xavier Perez de Couiler at the conclusion of the GATT Accord, "We agree to share our common dissatisfaction."

    The might of the Indian state however should not be underestimated. I do not mean military might but would rather focus on the collective will of the entire Indian population. Till such time this collective force feels no necessity, territorial disintegration of India is not palatable to Indians. I feel trying to make a point forcefully through violence so that separatist aspirations are given credence has still a long way to go. Primarily because the splinter groups advocating violence are not as well equipped as the collective Indian will.

    They should spend their time better in pursuit of education, vocation and economic well being rather than force generations to survive on aids doled out to them by other groups with their own selfish aspirations.

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  • 6. At 09:38am on 28 Sep 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    #5 lets not dugress the main course here.
    The strife in kashmir can only spread, it cannot stop. As an example on 30 Sep naxals gave a call to observe strike in 6 indian states to show solidarity with kashmir. India spends an obscene amount of money, resource in kashmir to no avail. All other poilices in the past have failed and this latest set of measures will meet the same end, statistically speaking.

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  • 7. At 09:39am on 28 Sep 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    correction: digress

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  • 8. At 10:51am on 28 Sep 2010, Kamal wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 9. At 11:30am on 28 Sep 2010, Kashmir wrote:

    India has arrested thousands of protesters in last three months and is now using them as a tool to negotiate with Kashmiri's.India's every single policy has failed in kashmir.Which country in the world holds its own people hostage to benefit its sovereignty.With 100,000 people dead in last 20 years people will never trust India.India just wants peace in the region not a solution.Kashmiri's want a referendum not packages and deals.Indian people are becoming more aware of the issue and favouring freedom of Kashmir as they have understood by now that you can not force your idealogy on a nation which is not a part of India and will never be.Big question is who from Indian policy makers has the guts to say enough is enough and time has come to let go.

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  • 10. At 12:36pm on 28 Sep 2010, Gnana wrote:

    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

  • 11. At 1:16pm on 28 Sep 2010, pseudosec wrote:

    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

  • 12. At 1:40pm on 28 Sep 2010, V Siva wrote:

    India is a failed state despite the politicians may boast that they are democratic.

    India is corrupt, barbaric, mockery and violent. India will never be a powerful nation due to their insane and mockery policies.

    Kashmir belongs to the Kashmiris and India should stop occupying and committing war crimes and ethnic cleansing over there.

    When more and more Indians are educated and come to senses, India will break into several small nations.

    Todays India's problems are largely due to the shameful Indian politicians who are unable to elect a strong and powerful Indian to lead their political party but allowed Sonia Gandhi at the helm. Indians slavery mentality should be cleaned first before they can think sensibly in the best interest of India.

    Indians doesn't deserve independence and they do not know the value of it. Kashmir independence will explode and India will learn a bitter lesson from it. No one will trust the Indians including the Kashmiris.

    There was a proverb in Sri Lanka, "One can trust their stomachache but not an North Indian". Kshmiris will never trust the Indians and Kashmiri independence is the only solution.



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  • 13. At 1:59pm on 28 Sep 2010, Sam_Cardiff wrote:

    Go India GO BACK. Kashmiris want to come out of illegal Indian occupation.
    Its time when India should worry about Naxalites instead of Kashmir.

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  • 14. At 3:20pm on 28 Sep 2010, SuperDriveGuy wrote:


    I am an Indian Muslim and want to put out a balanced view forward.


    India is a democracy, that is a fact! It may not be a western style one or as advanced, but it is a democracy, with it all its shortcomings. Every group has a chance to be heard and make an impact on policy, if it approaches the problem in the correct way.


    How many people outside India, know that there is a special article 370 in the Indian Constitution which forbids people from other parts of India from purchasing property in Kashmir - (on the other side, look at how China is populating Tibet with Han chinese to change the demographics, India is not doing the same, another example is the Israelies building in west bank). Also the kashmiri separatists have forced the kashmiri pandits away from Kashmir. How is that justified from either Separatist or from Islamic point of view. If India was a aggressor, it would cancel this Article and change the facts on the ground same as Israel and China. Is that what it takes for Muslims to see right from wrong, isnt an approach of restraint and dialogue that India has been following, good enough?

    It is not an issue of Religion(Islam) - though it is true that Muslims find strength in their religion for struggles, as do some other religions. don't expect Muslims to divorce their religion from their struggles, just because some other people are doing it that way.

    India has more Muslims than Pakistan. India is secular democratic country which means it has no state religion, and treats all religions equally. sometimes the ground reality is different, but its not a perfect system and everyone faces similar issues and we all(Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Sikhs etc) need to work to correct it. There are riots between Hindus and Muslims, but there are also troubles between upper/lower caste Hindus, Christians/Hindus as is the case in Pakistan too where the Shia/Sunni , Mohajir/locals, Wahabi-Taliba/all other fights.

    There are many religions, ethnic groups, languages and cultures all thriving very well, e.g. tamil nadu, orissa, bengal, assam, gujarat, punjab, maharashtra why not kashmir?

    There might be some kashmiri's wanting to separate, but its Pakistan which is using this as a proxy to wage war against India. There are other groups too in the North East, recently we had Khalistan. But these struggles die a natural death.

    India CANNOT and WILL NOT let any part become separate. Because the whole essense of India is "Unity in diversity", this is what we are taught since childhood. All genuine problems of the Kashmiris can be addressed along with the problems of others(there is a queue, we have a lot of problems, but there is no discrimination because you are kashmiris). Also we will NOT let Pakistan use your grievances as a scapegoat to mount a proxy war against us. They tried with Khalistan and failed. Now they are using Islam and Kashmir, basically all means at their disposal to disrupt India.

    About the plebiscite as promised by Pandit Nehru, that was promised on a whole Kashmir. Once Pakistan clears from POK(Pakistan Occupied Kashmir) we will hold it, once we have had a chance to convince the populace on the benefits of being in a forward looking democracy as opposed to a mostly failed state with dictatorships, where the people(Muslims) who migrated from India are called Mohajirs and have their own political party to fight for their rights, whereas in India, we have people who came from Pakistan and have very well intregrated and one does even hear a ripple of discontent, no seperate political outfits etc. We have our democractically elected Prime Minister who was born in Chakwal District, Pakistan. We had a Muslim President too, who is also the architect of our Missile defence program. Yes, there is gen musharaf(born in Delhi)who ruled after a coup, but that's not the same as being elected.

    There are failures on the India govt's part too. They have not involved the Indian Muslims(non Kashmiri's) in a dialogue with the Kashmiris to face the Pakistani gameplan of this being an issue for Islam.





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  • 15. At 3:49pm on 28 Sep 2010, India007 wrote:

    KASHMIR IS AN PART OF INDIA , THER IS NO WAY KASHMIR PEOPLE GET IT IF THEY WANT FREEDOM,


    GO TO PAK*****N,


    IS KASHMIR PEOPLE TRY TO BE PART OF INDIAN COMMUNITY , NO

    THOUSAND OF PEOPLE FROM DIFFERENT RELIGION HAS BEEN KICKED OUT OF KASHMIR

    TODAY YOU ARE DEMANDING FOR FREEDOM

    TOMORROW PUNJAB , TAMILNADU , BIHAR , ARUNACHAL PRADESH

    INDIA IS NOT GIVING HERE A FREE LAND TO OTHER COUNTRY


    AS AN INDIAN I WILL PREPFER TO DIE RATHER THAN GIVE MY MOTHERLAND TO

    ANYONE

    I AM AN INDIAN

    WE FOLLOW MATHAMA GANDHI BUT IN TODAY'S WORLD NEED TO FOLLOW HITLER MR BAKTAWAR , SAM _CARDIFF

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  • 16. At 3:52pm on 28 Sep 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    #12 is yet another perspective of truth. The south Indian , the glorious south Indian who is the corporate face of India today supports freedom for kashmir and peace for India. Hats off Sir !!! An increasing number of Indians now hold this opinion.

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  • 17. At 4:01pm on 28 Sep 2010, India007 wrote:

    AS I MENTION BEFORE

    MR BAKTAWAR , SAM_CARDIFF

    MISSILE MAN OF INDIA , DEFENCE INCHARGE IS MR ABDUL KALAM HE IS (MUSLIM 13.5 PERCENTAGE OF TOTAL POPULATION OF INDIA ) not (HINDU)

    PRIME MINISTER , MANMOHAN SINGH ( GRADUATE FROM CAMBRIDGE AND OXFORD ) HE IS (SIKH 1.9 PERCENTAGE OF TOTAL POPULATION OF INDIA ) not (HINDU)

    SONIA GANDHI PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS (MAJOR DECISION MAKER IN COUNTRY) ITALION BORN (Christianity (2.3%) PERCENTAGE OF TOTAL POPULATION OF INDIA ) not (HINDU)

    INDIA HAS UNITY IN DIVERSITY


    INDIA DO NOT ATTACK ON OTHER COUNTRY LIKE PA*****N

    INDIA FACING TERRORISM FROM PAK*****n FROM LAST 63 YEARS


    WE DO NOT WANT WAR WITH PAK****N AS IT IS NOT SOLUTION


    INDIA BELIVE IN PEACE AND OTHER COUNTRY SHOULD NOT INTERFERE IN INDIA.


    SAM_CARDIFF


    EVERY COUNTRY HAS INTERNAL PROBLEMS


    SHOW ME SINGLE COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WHICH HAS NOT PROBLEM





    SIKH BY RELIGION

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  • 18. At 4:14pm on 28 Sep 2010, India007 wrote:

    V Siva

    MR WORLD KNOW WHAT HAPPEND IN SRI LANKA

    YOU SHOULD SLOVE PROBLEM IN YOUR COUNTRY

    I HAVE FRIENDS FROM SRI LANKA WHO YOU ARE SINHALI OR TAMIL

    LOOK WHO ARE TALKING ABOUT INDIA

    YOU PEOPLE DEPEND UPUN INDIA

    CHECK IT ECONOMY WEBSITES

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  • 19. At 4:18pm on 28 Sep 2010, RealtyCheck wrote:

    Life & Freedom is so precious there is no justification killing anyone we all know Kashmir belongs to the Kashmiris and solution is Freedom and we all should respect them otherwise it would be another place breeding terrorism which will hunt back india so India should stop occupying and committing war crimes and ethnic cleansing over there.

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  • 20. At 5:14pm on 28 Sep 2010, Gnana wrote:

    #19. I really think you need to do a reality check about ethnic cleansing. What happens in Kashmir now doesn't seem to be ethnic cleansing in any way. Reckon, unless someone hasn't been brainwashed by radical forces, they may not see that as ethnic cleansing. So, I still stand by what I had stated earlier, we all need to clear up our mind of any presumptions and enter a drawing board to see what are the pros and cons of any separation (that is being requested) and should work to see what would really constitue as a solution and provide a lasting peace.

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  • 21. At 5:35pm on 28 Sep 2010, CJ Vasani wrote:

    I have been reading Mr. Biswas' articles on Kashmir for a while now and along with the articles, i have been reading the interesting comments that people put up here. It's either Kashmir is part of India and we will never let it go OR Give Kashmir the independence. I'll tell you why Kashmir will never be independent or can be separated from India and the answer is not about religion/plebiscite/economy or anything. It has do with the military. I have a close family member in the Indian armed forces who told me that India can never strategically defend itself in a true land-battle if there were no Kashmir. The Kashmir valley and the landscape has always offered India a unique strategic position in a battle and for that reason, no outsider was able to occupy India for a long time. Until they found their way through the Hindu-Kush mountains...this is the last frontier for Indian military and they will never compromise it. Mark my words.

    Solution = Educate Kashmiris, put them to work and develop the state as well as Gujarat, Punjab or Kerala. All of these issues will disappear. Hindu-Muslims will 'bhai-bhai' (brothers) again. As it is most developed states of India.

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  • 22. At 5:52pm on 28 Sep 2010, Abhi wrote:

    kashmir problem is created because of narrow mindedness of the fanatics which believes that their religion is the best & no one can rule them & they would not accomodate any other relgion. its war between muslim and rest. if kashmiri people were so great why did they torture kill and made kashmiri pandit hindus out of their homes. kashmir in reality is a burdon on india which spends lot of its resources much more than any other state to keep it in. why because india beleives in multi religion and muliti cultural co - existence. countries and people who are made based on religion are narrow minded have no respect for other religions or humans and divide people based on religion. kashmiri should wake up to today`s reality, its not islam which is going to take them anywhere its the respect for other religions and other human beings. learn how to co-exist with other religions and live peacefully. their future is much better being part of india rather than failed islamic state pakistan. the fact is that fundamenatlists islam has created more problems than good in today`s modern world which teaches globalization, living together in harmony, respecting every other relgion and kashmir is yet another example of falling in hands of these facists islamists.

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  • 23. At 6:04pm on 28 Sep 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    #21 CJ Vasani :
    kashmiris were never a part of India's fabric and will never be. And we are not begging for this freedom, we are fighting for it. During the course of this fighting india looses more than we do. You dont even get the bandwidth to focus on China. All your taxpayers money goes in defence and your living standard is very poor (e.g naxal problem ). Bindrawale is back in Punjab as favorite car sticker. India needs to weigh the cost of holding onto kashmir. Dont just do it for 2% of kashmiri population which is 0.0001% of India's population which is kashmiri pandit just because they are brahmin. See the larger picture when talking about secular democratic India

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  • 24. At 6:06pm on 28 Sep 2010, pzfz wrote:

    More yelling and spewing hate from the hindutva brigade. It's probably real frustrating knowing that after 60+ years of India's occupation of Kashmir, the Kashmiris still aren't Indian. Makes sense, since Kashmir has never been Indian or never will be Indian. And one can't expect a population subjected to genocide, torture, rape, killings, etc. to ever "be" their occupiers.

    All the charged statements from the brigade (and some pretending to be "muslim") lays bare their hatred towards Muslims and anyone non-Indian, like the Kashmiris.

    Lost in all this is the extreme communal rhetoric from the Indian state and "civil" society. Kashmir isn't about the rights of Kashmiris, it's about holding on to a piece of land which once might have been mentioned in mythological literature. It's about "sticking" it to those muslims. It's about land. It isn't even about India anymore, it is about a Hindu empire.

    India's biggest threat is letting the Hindutva terrorists taking over the discourse and stopping India from becoming a true democratic and secular society. I fear for Gandhi's India.

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  • 25. At 6:32pm on 28 Sep 2010, CJ Vasani wrote:

    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

  • 26. At 6:51pm on 28 Sep 2010, Sam_Cardiff wrote:

    Kashmir is not an integral part of india. Its an unfinished business of the partition. India occupied Kashmir the same way it occupied other states like Hyderabad etc.
    Its a shame that world doesn't take notice of grave human right violations taking place in Kashmir.

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  • 27. At 7:24pm on 28 Sep 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    On blogs like this people hate monger against islam as the last resort. Their side of argument looks very weak because unequivocal naxal support for kashmiri FREEDOM proves that it is not a hindu muslim conflict. naxals also suffer because they are not brahmin. Sardars also suffer, a generation of them was mowed down in 84. Christians in kandhamal another example. Kashmir is more live and vivid because India's founder Nehru promised its freedom. Fair and Square, UN resolutions define the freedom we ask.

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  • 28. At 7:36pm on 28 Sep 2010, onelife wrote:

    It seems to me that Kashmiris have some real thinking to do at this stage. They have to choose between living peacefully in a beautiful part of India, or a continued, ugly, struggle with the security forces present in Kashmir. If history is any judge of the future, then it would seems wise to choose the first option (life) over the second (a prolonged struggle). Throughout the "freedom struggle" of Kashmir, what has been lacking is a strong reason for it (something that would convince the rest of the country and its polity). Kashmir is the only province that is actually militarily fighting the Indian government for things that people in the rest of India use other more non-violent means to obtain. The problems that Kashmiris face (even today) pales in comparison to the problem of untouchability, which deprives a much bigger population of its fair share in India's freedom. Yet, the best way out of that problem has been (and continues to be) by either economic progress or political progress that has been achieved within the fabric of the Indian constitution. Now there are Naxal movements and occasional Veerappans and Bhindranwalas in the rest of the land, trying to go loggerheads with the machinery of the Indian state, but these struggles are not at all similar to what Kashmir has seen in the past several decades. Further, Kashmiris in their "freedom struggle" have alienated a part of their own community (the Hindu Kashmiris). This also bodes ill on the outcome of the "freedom struggle". Whether by design, or by chance, the Kashmiri freedom struggle has become another "Hindu-Muslim" strife. And that again indicates that there is no solution to the problem through any route other than accepting the live-and-let-live option.

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  • 29. At 7:46pm on 28 Sep 2010, India007 wrote:

    Mr bakhtawar & Sam _Cardiff


    YES KASHMIR IS AN UNFINISHED BUSINESS

    NOT INDIAN OCCUPIED KASHMIR

    BUT


    PAKISTAN OCCUPIED KASHMIR


    WE WANT BACK FROM PA*****N

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  • 30. At 7:52pm on 28 Sep 2010, India007 wrote:

    SAM_CARDIFF

    HUMAN RIGHTS ARE BETTER IN INDIA AS COMPARED TO OTHER COUNTRIES

    LOOK

    PAKISTAN , CHINA , BURMA , NORTHEN IRELAND , CYPRUS , AND MOST ARAB COUNTRIES


    WE HAVE MORE MUSLIMS THAN PAKISTAN

    WE DO NOT HATE MUSLIM OR DO NOT BELIEVE OUR RELIGION IS BEST IN THE
    WORLD

    WE RESPECT EVERY RELIGION

    WE DO NOT HATE JU , CATHOLIC , PROTESTANT , SIKH , HINDU , MUSLIM.

    THEY ARE LIVING PEACEFULLY


    MR BAKTAWAR , SAM_CARDIFF

    MISSILE MAN OF INDIA , DEFENCE INCHARGE IS MR ABDUL KALAM HE IS (MUSLIM 13.5 PERCENTAGE OF TOTAL POPULATION OF INDIA ) not (HINDU)

    PRIME MINISTER , MANMOHAN SINGH ( GRADUATE FROM CAMBRIDGE AND OXFORD ) HE IS (SIKH 1.9 PERCENTAGE OF TOTAL POPULATION OF INDIA ) not (HINDU)

    SONIA GANDHI PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS (MAJOR DECISION MAKER IN COUNTRY) ITALIAN BORN (Christianity (2.3%) PERCENTAGE OF TOTAL POPULATION OF INDIA ) not (HINDU)

    INDIA HAS UNITY IN DIVERSITY



    VANDE MATRAM

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  • 31. At 7:55pm on 28 Sep 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    that looks very uncouth, trust me you cause more damage to India's cause than helping it. It looks pariah.

    as for my heartfelt belief:

    India has no means of influcence in kashmir except for it's armed forces. Pariahs from remote corners of India wherein education is a rare commodity, enforce Indias brute rule in kashmir. A rule that Must end now.

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  • 32. At 8:16pm on 28 Sep 2010, CJ Vasani wrote:

    ha...my last comment was too logical to be posted? All I said was the disgruntled in Kashmir can fight all they way, but I am afraid they are and will be on losing side due military strategic location of the territory. forget religion issue, it's a convenient excuse and makes it easy to report in the India. All these guys saying that Kashmir is not an integral part of India...I just have to ask you to look at history and see how old the Indian civilization is and ask yourself whether or not, there were Indians (or Hindus/Buddhist since concept of India didn't exist back then) there before Islam even came about. Look at Asoka's Maurya empire and check the map.

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  • 33. At 8:57pm on 28 Sep 2010, SuperDriveGuy wrote:

    This is so funny @pzfz sometimes the Hindu extremists demand that Indian Muslims prove they are Indian and sometimes we have Islamic extremists like yourself, who think we are not Muslims. My views are of the 135 million silent Muslims in India.

    I agree there are extremists in India spewing hate, but that's the same in Pakistan too. The silent majority like myself are never heard. BTW my "balanced" @14 comment has been referred for further consideration by the BBC. Maybe the BBC too prefers war mongering opinions.

    I still say the biggest mistake of the Indian govt has been that they have not used the Indian Muslims to counter Pakistan turning the Kashmir issue into Muslim vs Infidels issue with the Islamic world. They are ones who blocked India's entry into the OIC(Organisation of Islamic Countries)

    Artcile 370 gives the Kashmiris special priviliges to ensure their culture is not trampled. We have a thriving multi-cultural populace. Any language or culture is not forced upon the other, infact I have to communicate in English with some of my Indian colleagues from the Southern and North Eastern states!

    I hope sanity prevails and the Kashmiris see through Pakistan's game plan. They are not the spokepersons for Islam(though they would like to think so) and are just using Islam as a common factor to provocate the Kashmiris to demand breaking up from India. I guess they are still smarting from the Bangladesh loss.

    Yours Sincerely,

    Indian Muslim(with no certificates for being either Indian or Muslim)

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  • 34. At 10:36pm on 28 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    Bhatawar and few other pro-freedom blog-fighters not only conveniently forget but alo distort history, specifically history of Kashmir and history of India. They try their best to ignore the fact that present Kashmir problem is MAINLY due to three reasons: 1) Muslim majority, 2) proximity to Pakistan. The other major reason is Indian politicians; whose incompetence and lack of farsightedness (appeasement policy in short) allowed Pakistan and many (not all) Muslim separatists to undertake sustained fight for “freedom”. Dialogue will not provide any solution of that problem so long majority Muslims in Kashmir valley and Pakistani political establishments accept that terrorism (directly or indirectly) should never become part of foreign policy of any state. Scrap all the special privileges (e.g article 370) granted so far to Kashmir, in a gradual manner. Allow sane Kashmiris to get assimilated to Indian national mainstream, take responsibility of their own development and fate (just like many states in India). In reality the future of Kashmir and Kashmiri people is much better off with India.

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  • 35. At 10:38pm on 28 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    It is fortunate (for both to India, Pakistan and Kashmir) that no hardline Hindu group is making it an issue that Hinduism was originated around Indus valley (that’s how the name “Hindu” actually originated). World famous Harrapa and Mohenjo-Daro civilization (which is currently in Pakistan beside the tributaries of river Indus) is widely believed to be the birth place of Vedic civilization that gave rise to Hinduism. During that time Islam was not even born (birth of Muhammad was 570 CE in Macca). Islamic invasion to India (during and subsequent spread of Islamic invasion into India changed Indian demography.
    “Kalhan has started the history of Kashmir just before the great Mahabharat war, and the first King mentioned by him is Gonanda I, whose initial year of reign he places in 653 Kali-era, the traditional date of the coronation of King Yudhistira, the eldest brother of the Pandvas. Gonanda was killed in a battle along with his son in India, and at the time of the commencement of the Mahabharat war, Gonanda II was ruling Kashmir. After his death, the great historion informs that the record of 35 kings who ruled the valley could not be traced by him, because of the destruction of the record. However a modern scholar Peer Zada Hassan has given a brief record of these Kings from a Persian work composed during the time of Sultan Zainul-Abdeen ( 1420-70 ). The author of this work Mulla Ahmad had been able to obtain the names of these kings from an earlier Sanskrit work "Ratnakar ". The great Mauryan emperor Ashoka is recorded to have ruled Kashmir, and Kalhan rightly mentions that the king was a follower of Buddhism. http://www.koausa.org/crown/history.html
    For recent history one can read: “Short history of Kashmir dispute”: http://www.ieer.org/comments/dsmt/kashhist.html

    Over 300,000 Kashmiri Hindus have been forced to leave due to ethnic cleansing abetted by Kashmiri Muslims in Kashmir valley".
    http://hinduism.about.com/od/history/a/humanrights.htm

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  • 36. At 10:49pm on 28 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    Lakshadweep, another Indian state has majority Muslim population (93%). But they are not asking or been incited to have a “freedom struggle” (may be for having “special culture”, never was a part of India etc). That happened simply because Pakistan is not near to that state and that is also not that strategically important to Pakistan (or its “close friend” China), so far.
    Just give me the names of few states in India which does not have a unique cultural (language, food, social custom etc) identity? Almost every state has something unique. But that did not prevent them to become Indian or take up fight to get freedom from India.
    The atrocities by Indian security forces are condemnable. But such atrocities are not unique to Kashmir. If Kashmiris fight against atrocities by security forces, against under-development, against corruption in government, against use of religion in public policy by state government, them many Indians, including myself with stand by them. Those are universal problem for whole India. But those must not be the argument to support Islamic terrorism and describe that as “freedom struggle”.

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  • 37. At 11:17pm on 28 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    For an informed debate people can read the History of Kashmir. It will help to put the current situation and conflict in perspective.

    “According to folk etymology, the name "Kashmir" means "desiccated land" (from the Sanskrit: Ka = water and shimeera = desiccate). In the Rajatarangini, a history of Kashmir written by Kalhana in the mid-12th century, it is stated that the valley of Kashmir was formerly a lake. According to Hindu mythology, the lake was drained by the great rishi or sage, Kashyapa, son of Marichi, son of Brahma, by cutting the gap in the hills at Baramulla (Varaha-mula)…
    Kashmir was one of the major centre of Sanskrit scholars. According to the Mahabharata,[3] the Kambojas ruled Kashmir during the epic period with a Republican system of government.
    Muslim rul in Kashmir started with Shams-ud-Din Shah Mir (1339-1342) as the ruler of Kashmir and the founder of the Shah Miri dynasty named after him. BY THE EARLY 19TH CENTURY, THE KASHMIR VALLEY HAD PASSED FROM THE CONTROL OF THE DURRANI EMPIRE OF AFGHANISTAN, AND FOUR CENTURIES OF MUSLIM RULE UNDER THE MUGHALS AND THE AFGHANS, TO THE CONQUERING SIKH ARMIES. Earlier, in 1780, after the death of Ranjit Deo, the Raja of Jammu, the kingdom of Jammu (to the south of the Kashmir valley) was captured by the Sikhs under Ranjit Singh of Lahore and afterwards, until 1846, became a tributary to the Sikh power.

    British rule started over Kashmir started during 1845, after the First Anglo-Sikh War.

    In October 1947 (just after India and Pakistan got freedom in August 1947), Pashtuns from Pakistan's North-West Frontier Province invaded Kashmir. The ostensible aim of the guerilla campaign was to frighten Hari Singh into submission. Instead the Maharaja appealed to Mountbatten[19] for assistance, and the Governor-General agreed on the condition that the ruler accede to India.[17] Once the Maharaja signed the Instrument of Accession, Indian soldiers entered Kashmir and drove the Pakistani-sponsored irregulars from all but a small section of the state. The Pakistani government immediately contested the accession, suggesting that it was fraudulent, that the Maharaja acted under duress and that he had no right to sign an agreement with India.

    For more detail: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Kashmir


    Kashmir: Paradise Lost - Understanding the Kashmir Conflict: http://hinduism.about.com/od/history/a/Kashmir-Paradise-Lost.htm

    “The Kashmir region, in its present form, became a part of the Hindu Dogra kingdom at the end of the First Sikh War in 1846, when, by the treaties of Lahore and Amritsar, Maharaja Gulab Singh, the Dogra ruler of Jammu, was made the ruler of Kashmir "to the eastward of the River Indus and westward of the River Ravi." The Dogra rulers - Maharaja Gulab Singh (1846 to 1857), Maharaja Ranbir Singh (1857 to 1885), Maharaja Pratap Singh (1885 to 1925), and Maharaja Hari Singh (1925 to 1950) - laid the foundations of the modern Jammu & Kashmir state. This princely state lacked a definite boundary until the 1880s, when the British delimited boundaries in negotiations with Afghanistan and Russia. The crisis in Kashmir began immediately after the British rule ended”.

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  • 38. At 11:23pm on 28 Sep 2010, Sam_Cardiff wrote:

    guys please stop projecting freedom struggle of Kashmir as terrorism. That's what India has been doing for more than 60 years.
    Those of you who think Azad Kashmir belongs to India, I suggest them to come and ask the people of Azad Kashmir. It will be good learning experience for you to see what the have to say in response.
    Think and see beyond indian propaganda. Indian citizens must realise that leaving Kashmir is in their own favour and a "must have" requirement for a long lasting peace in South Asia.

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  • 39. At 02:08am on 29 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    Sam_cardiff. Wake up and start living in real world. What is going on in Kashmir since last couple of decades is NOTHING BUT Pakistan sponsored Islamic terrorism. Kashmir always belonged to India since we have historical record. Muslim invasion in 12th century, forced and/or coerced conversion (to Islam) and ethnic cleansing of Hindus since then, and finally, division of India on religious line can never erase that truth.
    If anyone in Kashmir is interested in development of Kashmir, redressal of atrocities by security forces, spread of education, reduction of poverty and superstition, removal of religion as the driving force for general governance etc.- than let them come forward and start a statewide protest and self-cleansing. We, all sane Indians and outside world will whole heartedly join them. I too will join them.
    Consider the following facts:
    1. Was India divided on the basis of opinion of majority Indians? NO.
    2. Was (Indian) Kashmir forced/attacked (by India) to join to Indian republic? NO.
    3. Was (Pakistani) Kashmir forced/attacked (by Pakistan) to control POK? Yes.
    4. Did Pakistan took general opinion before it start occupying POK? No.

    Whole Kashmir was part of India before British divided India on 1947. It is the incompetency of Indian politicians (mainly Congress party) that allowed Kashmir to become divided. Kashmir was accessed to India by its own king, as per pre-determined norms and agreed by both Muslim league (headed by Ali Jinnah, founder of Pakistan) and Congress (headed by Jawaharlal Nehru and MK Gandhi). It was the invasion of Pakistani rangers (Border guards and army) in guise of ethnic tribal, just after independence that violated the rule of law and sowed the seed of violence in Kashmir valley.
    Now all Kashmiris should start demanding giving back that Pakistan occupied Kashmir back to them so that they can have undivided Kashmir to them and develop that part without military dictatorship (of Pakistan), as per free will of people of that state, just like any other state in India.

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  • 40. At 02:27am on 29 Sep 2010, onlyfacts wrote:

    I think one of the reasons the so called "Kashmir" problem is raised in international forums is because Indian Government in incapable of highlighting the cause of people such as Amir Humza Qureshi, founder of the Gilgit-Baltistan Jamhoori Mahaz. Pakistan will go very silent when such issues are raised. What the Kashmiris must be thankful is that even after admitting that the Indian military is repressive but no as bad as the repression faced by fellow Kashmiris (I bet they are a forgotten lot!) on the other side of the border (areas to include PoK, Northern Areas). I'd like to read some constructive comments on the problems faced by people on the other side of the held territory, more so if the author can educate BBC audience.

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  • 41. At 02:41am on 29 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    Probably the more relevant issue for debate will be:
    Was it a wise decision for India to remain secular after the British divided India on religious line? If the answer is “yes”, then what did we (irrespective of religion) do wrong that many Muslims (surely not all) still do not accept India as their country?
    Now anyone can replace “Islam” from that question and put something else, e.g caste, language, statehood etc and ask the same question. You will get almost same answer. If you analyze little deeply, you will realize that any group of people will demand more, will feel alienated when you start giving them special privilege (for whatever reason). If you read books by/about Dr BR Ambedkar, you will understand why he prescribed TIME-BOUND “reservation” for (ONLY) scheduled caste and scheduled tribe. Then try to analyze why no Indian political party or politician will ever dare to abolish that notorious “reservation policy” on the basis of caste line (although we all know how misused and exploited that law is and increasing in its scope even after 60 odd years of independence). The same thing is going on in Kashmir, albeit in a different form. But there is a very clear connection and in both the case India, as a country has and will continue to pay heavy price for that.
    The solution is, as I think; gradually abolish each and every special privileges granted to anyone, including Kashmir. Granting more autonomy to defuse current situation in Kashmir will create more problem in future. But as usual, our policy makers are more interested in short term gain (besides personal interests), than long term benefit. After all, governments are remunerated for short term only, five years in our case.
    Wise parents do not give whatever a kid demands and start crying to get that. It is also an act of stupidity to assume that it will stop demanding more once we give meat to mad dogs. We, both our common citizens and policy makers must understand that no one can beg or buy peace, it has to be earned. Chanting mantra of peace and giving meat to mad dogs do not guarantee peace, unless you prepare yourself to earn and defend it. Otherwise no country would have spent huge wealth to have armed force but would keep an army of people with chanting beads in their hands.

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  • 42. At 03:23am on 29 Sep 2010, Saeed Ahmad wrote:

    The problem of Kashmir has its roots in the Indian double standards going back to the Independence and will not go away just because 63 years have passed.

    The formula at partition for semi-autonomous states was that if the majority population and the ruler were Hindu, the state would be part of India and if the majority population and the ruler were Muslims, the state would be part of Pakistan. If the population and the ruler were of different religions, then there would be a referendum in which the people would decide if they wanted to join India or Pakistan.

    India invaded and occupied Kashmir using the excuse that its ruler was Hindu, although the majority population was Muslim. It invaded and occupied the State of Hyderabad using the excuse that its majority population was Hindu even though the ruler was a Muslim.

    India wants to have it both ways. That is hypocrisy and will not work just because decades have passed. India will be better off focusing on solving its real problems of poverty, caste system, illiteracy, etc. rather than spending billions of dollars on an arms race with Pakistan so that it could continue to occupy Kashmir. There will be no peace between India and Pakistan, nor any so-called confidence building measures work until the problem of Kashmir is solved. India is continuing to occupy Kashmir with the force of gun. As we have seen in many other parts of the world, that does not work.

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  • 43. At 03:51am on 29 Sep 2010, Saeed Ahmad wrote:

    In response to Kamal's comments (#8 above): He is basically repeating Zionist propaganda on the Western media. They have a motive to portray Islam as a religion and ALL Muslims in a bad manner.

    Kamal’s ignorance is indicated by his translation of the word “Fitnah.” It neither means disbelief nor non-Muslims. It means anarchy, disorder, lawlessness.

    Before you can point a finger at Islam being a non-tolerant religion, look at yourself. How Hindus have treated their own over the centuries and continue to do so, untouchables. Only a few days ago, there was a news item on this very website that in an Indian village, an untouchable woman fed some bread to the dog of an upper class Hindu. That upper class Hindu declared that his dog also had become untouchable and abandoned it.

    You can point finger at Islam and Muslims again!

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  • 44. At 06:40am on 29 Sep 2010, pzfz wrote:

    Pretty disappointing to see the discourse getting away from reality. I hope Jay(prakash) and his ilk are intellectually honest enough with themselves to know that the problem is in Indian Occupied Kashmir. Pakistani Kashmir, popularly known as Azad (free) Kashmir by the Kashmiris has no issues. The people have their own government, their own elected PM, who if anything advises the Pak government on issues relating to the Indian occupation of Kashmir. As a Kashmiri, we know the realities, the reality is that the people of Pakistani Kashmir are free, free from occupation, free from the fear that their daughters will not get raped, free from the knowledge that their sons going out to play will not be killed in an "encounter". The BBC and all other medias are free to report in those areas, unlike Indian occupied Kashmir where media is muzzled. The reason that no "incidents" or "issues" are reported is because there really is nothing to report, besides the beauty and freedom of the region.

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  • 45. At 08:01am on 29 Sep 2010, India007 wrote:

    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

  • 46. At 08:11am on 29 Sep 2010, India007 wrote:

    ‘So called Azad Kashmir and security zone’.



    Presentation made by Abbas Butt

    at the UN Human Rights Council Geneva on 22 September 2010.


    Presentation made by Abbas Butt on behalf of Kashmir National Party in a seminar arranged by NGO at the UN Human Rights Council Geneva on 22 September 2010.

    Mr Chairman

    Topic of my presentation is ‘So called Azad Kashmir and security zone’. This area of the former State of Jammu and Kashmir is occupied by Pakistan, and it is called Azad Kashmir, which means free or independent. Reality, however, is that this area is not free or independent. It is a colony of Pakistan and Pakistan exploits resources of this area, just like imperialist powers of the 18th and 19th century did with their colonies.

    From among the Kashmiri collaborators, Pakistan selects those people who are best to serve their interests and keep control over the people. Pakistan and these puppets use name of religion to keep control over the people and spread extremism and hatred.

    This area appears to have a Parliamentary democracy, but those who disagree with policies of Islamabad and promote united and independent Jammu and Kashmir are not allowed to contest elections. Pakistani politicians and Pakistani secret agencies decide who can contest and who will win the elections.

    All those who become members of the Assembly are pro Pakistan and subservient of Pakistan, but Islamabad still does not trust them. They have set up Kashmir Council which is always chaired by Pakistani Prime Minister or Chief Executive when Islamabad is ruled by a dictator.

    This Kashmir Council has majority of Pakistanis as its members, who are appointed by Prime Minister of Pakistan; and it is strictly controlled by Pakistani bureaucrats. Kashmir Council takes all the major decisions regarding Kashmir and Kashmir Assembly, its President or Prime Minister cannot challenge any of the decisions.

    In reality four Pakistanis namely, Chief Secretary, IG Police, Finance Secretary and Accountant General control and manage all the affairs of this territory, which we like to call Pakistani Occupied Kashmir. Apart from that Military Chief based in Murree, known as GOC Murree, ISI, Intelligence Bureau and Military Intelligence have the last say in matters of this area; and political leaders, ministers, even President and Prime Minister of this territory have no say before them.

    More than once Rulers of so called Azad Kashmir were dismissed by Islamabad, and when Azad Kashmir's Prime Minister, Mumtaz Rathore was arrested and dismissed in 1991, Benazir Bhutto commented:

    “Pakistan had arrested the Prime Minister of Azad Kashmir, rigged the state election, and alienated the Kashmiris to such an extent that they want an independent Kashmir.” Quoted in ‘Reclaiming the Past’, by Vernon Hewitt, page 119

    Mr Chairman, this explains the real situation and independence of this area.

    Furthermore, Lal Hussain, a liberal minded Pakistani wrote:

    ‘If the Indian army has the biggest concentration of military forces in Indian-Held Kashmir, then it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that Azad Kashmir is a garrison and cantonment for the Pakistan army. There is hardly any aspect of life in Pakistani-controlled Kashmir where there is no interference of the army, whether overt or covert. Ministers and politicians in Azad Kashmir are often seen lining up outside the offices of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) in Muzaffarabad.’

    There are powerful forces in Pakistan who want to spread extremism, violence and hatred in name of religion. They want constant state of tension and war between India and Pakistan to justify existence of Pakistan and out of date and illogical Two Nations Theory, which divided the Sub Continent of India in name of religion and caused death and destruction; and people continue to suffer because of that.

    Lal Hussain claims:

    ‘The two-nation theory requires constant rivalry and hatred against the Indian adversary. It is Kashmir that provides the material for this conflict.’

    Pakistani ruling elite want to destabilise the region through their policy of exporting jihad or a proxy war; and for this purpose they propagate jihad in Kashmir and use this slogan to recruit people to advance their agenda.

    They have training camps in so called Azad Kashmir which are controlled and financed by the secret agencies of Pakistan. The jihadi groups cross the LOC to wage jihad on the other side of the LOC and as a result people of Jammu and Kashmir suffer on both sides of the LOC.

    Because of the presence of the Jihadi groups, people of Azad Kashmir suffer. They are intimidated and harassed; and those who criticise very often lose their lives. Their activities are promoting extremism and violence and people of this area are seriously worried about this.

    Lal Hussain further comments on this situation:

    ‘The rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Azad Kashmir is not just because of the political vacuum or the objective situation, but because it has been promoted by the politics of expediency of the Pakistani rulers.’

    Mr Chairman,

    Azad Kashmir is not azad – free from foreign occupation, but surely it is free from responsibilities of education, trade, economic planning, health care, infrastructure, social and welfare of its people.

    My request is NGOs and International community should take this matter seriously and take some action to prevent this matter getting out of control.

    Thank you for your patience.

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  • 47. At 08:59am on 29 Sep 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    a wall of text that has got nothing to do with topic being discussed here. Kashmiris will demand freedom from India come what may. Steps like this ( main course of Southik Biswas article) have failed an umpteen number of times. While the common Indian has built a false facade around him the corrupt politician is making merry of the turmoil. Nobody gains anything by letting this conflict linger. A thought that Obama, in a lot of words, has acknowledged today at UN.

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  • 48. At 09:58am on 29 Sep 2010, Dinesh wrote:

    Bakhtawar,
    You are at your best when attacking India/ Hindus to the level that now you started to justify the eviction of Kashmiri Pandits from the valley. Kindly let me know what the Kashmiris will do when say Independence is granted. Create another Pakistan at India’s door step? Did you expect Indian Government and the Public will love to see that? What is your real problem? Development of Kashmir or the Kashmir ruled by a Hindu majority secular nation with more than reasonable self- determination already granted? Already India is facing the brunt of a theocratic state. Is religion the only criteria for creating a nation?

    Also please don’t dare comment about South Indians. I’m a South Indian and I’m very much Indian even though I had a feeling that in some cases the balance is slightly being shifted towards North. Also south Indians doest support an Independent Kashmir against the well being of Indian state. Just after the Independence the North Indians tried to force their culture and language towards us. I agree. But not anymore. Also at that time we hadn’t asked for an Independent nation due to that. We had just fought for our rights in a democratic way to co-exist as a fellow Indian with unique cultural identities as ensured in the Indian constitution.

    The classic case is Tamil Nadu, the state which is the most opposed to the forceful imposition of Hindi. The people who pioneered the movement were first inclined towards a separate nation (as you dream of now) but later decided against it just for the benefit of the people. They contested the elections. Won it and still now no national parties cant able to take the power back from them (43 years and still counting). Now TN is a developed state. It is one of the biggest contributors for the collective Indian cause, be it floods in Bihar or earth quake in Gujarat. The cultural identity of the state is not compromised because of this. Hindi is still out in the state, the main agenda of the parties. It’s not about for what you are fighting. It about how you fight for it and whom you join with in that fight.

    We fought in a democratic way. You have also done the same earlier. But at the moment you had started believing Violence will fetch you what you desire, doom started. Join the mainstream and reap the benefits. Don’t allow petty emotions ruin the life of your people.

    But for once I agree with you, that India is losing more than it gains by holding onto Kashmir. But Pride does matter mate.

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  • 49. At 10:53am on 29 Sep 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

  • 50. At 11:11am on 29 Sep 2010, Sam_Cardiff wrote:

    a big waaaooo to all those who want to divert the attention from the freedom struggle. you guys are doing a really good job but its not good enough.
    just to clarify a little. Pakistan Army was under the command of general Gracy who refused to support 1947/48 Kashmir war. Giglit Bltistan area was liberated by Gilgit scouts. Yes, there were pashtun tribes involved in helping kashmirs in ther resistance and managed to free part of Kashmir. On this India went into UN and agreed for a plebiscite.


    Now stop fooling the world by labelling the freedom struggle as terrorism and pay attention to what people of Indian occupied Kashmir want.

    May God help people of Indian Occupied Kashmir to achieve freedom. It has to happen, sooner or later. If not today then tomorrow. All you guys should worry about is the cost you are willing to pay for holding Kashmir.
    Good luck to both (Kashmiris and Indians).

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  • 51. At 11:32am on 29 Sep 2010, jet225 wrote:

    #23 - bhaktwar ji, oh please don,t you worry about India,s spending capacity. we got very little international debt. unlike western countries, the indian govt doesn't have to sell its bonds to foreigners. The indian people buy these bonds. The Indian people fund the indian govt. so we can hold onto K until your grand kid's grand kid succumbs to old age. Thank you, come again.

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  • 52. At 11:33am on 29 Sep 2010, India007 wrote:

    49. At 10:53am on 29 Sep 2010, bakhtawar wrote:


    V SIVA is an SRI LANKAN not SOUTH INDIAN


    KASHMIR will not get separated from INDIA.


    AZAD KASHMIR TOPIC IS RELATED TO THIS TOPIC


    IF INDIA LET FREEDOM TO KASHMIR

    WORLD KNOW


    PA*****N WILL ATTACK ON KASHMIR AS IT DID IN PAST

    AND USE THE LAND FOR TERRORISM CAMPS AGAINST INDIA & WESTERN COUNTRIES

    LIKE IT IS USING AZAD KASHMIR

    READ MY COMMENTS AND PLEA OF MR Abbas Butt

    ‘So called Azad Kashmir and security zone’.

    Presentation made by Abbas Butt

    at the UN Human Rights Council Geneva on 22 September 2010.


    WE BEAR TERRORISM FOR 63 YEARS & 3 UNWANTED WARS RESULT WORLD KNEW YA











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  • 53. At 11:38am on 29 Sep 2010, India007 wrote:

    IT IS WORLD POLITICS

    PAK****N IS STILL LIVE


    BECAUSE IT HAS GOT NOTHING ( RESOURCES) LIKE IRAQ HAS OIL

    AMERICA WANTS TO KEEP INDIA BUSY

    OTHERWISE INDIA WILL RULE WORLD ECONOMICALLY AND WITH LOVE

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  • 54. At 11:43am on 29 Sep 2010, India007 wrote:

    INDIANS ARE TECHNICALLY STRONG

    WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN RELIGION

    HINDU CAN WORK AND LIVE WITH MUSLIM , INDIAN MUSLIM CAN WORK AND LIVE WITH HINDU , CHRISTIAN , OTHER RELIGION.


    WE LEARN FROM SCHOOL THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE RELIGION THAT IS HUMAN BEING

    THEN COUNTY

    THEN PARENTS

    AND RELIGION IS AT BOTTOM


    EDUCATION MAKES DIFFERENCE

    IF YOU HATE PEOPLE

    OBVIOUSLY

    PEOPLE WILL HATE YOU BACK


    IT IS NATURE RULE

    WHAT YOU GIVE IT TO OTHERS

    WILL COME BACK TO YOU



    KASHMIR PEOPLE NEED EDUCATION

    KASHMIR PEOPLE NEED JOB

    SO THEY WILL NOT FELL FOR TRAP

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  • 55. At 11:44am on 29 Sep 2010, Gnana wrote:

    Mr. bakhtawar, Reckon #46, the so called "a wall of text that has got nothing to do with topic being discussed here", looks to be a response to the posting #44 of pzfz.
    In another post by Mr.Biswas, when I stated, we might have to allow Kashmir to be independent and see for themselves what it takes to be an independent nation, you were very supportive of my views and presented yourself to be a open minded person.
    But, why do you want to close your eyes to some of the posts in this blog? I still reckon, you, Sam, Saeed & pzfz are open minded people, who just failed to spot a few things here and there and still sincerely hope, given an opportunity you would be able to look both sides of the coin and be able to contribute to a better future of Kashmir (either as an independent nation or as a state of INDIA).

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  • 56. At 11:52am on 29 Sep 2010, India007 wrote:

    EMPTY MIND IS DEVILS WORKSHOP


    THAT IS WHAT HAPPENING

    IF PEOPLE WILL GET EDUCATED THEY WILL KEEP THERE AIM HIGH

    IF YOU HAVE EDUCATION , JOB

    NO ONE CAN MAKE YOU FOOL OR TAKE ADVANTAGE OF YOU

    KASHMIR VALLEY HAS PROBLEM NOT JAMMU AND OTHER PARTS


    INDIA IS CAPABLE TO TACKLE INTERNAL PROBLEM WITH HIS OWN

    WE DO NOT NEED ANY OUTSIDER


    INDIA DO NOT INTERFERE IN OTHER COUNTRY PROBLEM LIKE


    CHINA - TIBET
    PAKISTAN - BORDER AREA OF AFGHANISTAN
    BURMA - MILITARY JUNTA
    NEPAL - MAOIST


    WE WANT PEACE WITH PAKISTAN NOT WAR

    SO INDIA CAN SPEND THAT MONEY IN DEVELOPMENT OF INDIAN PEOPLE


    WAR IS NOT SOLUTION OF PEACE

    WAR WILL OPEN AN DOOR TO ANOTHER

    WAR AND PROCESS WILL GO ON


    GOD KNOWS WHEN PAK****N WILL UNDERSTAND IT

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  • 57. At 12:05pm on 29 Sep 2010, ashataus wrote:

    @bakhtawar ji,
    u know in hindi there is a saying which means always keep the critics nera you if possible in your own house so it will help you to improve thats why we indians love when you post all these nasty comments i love it it makes me more dedicated towards my motherland, and ya mother india got enough sons to take care of her , what i think that u got a nice Chinese girlfriend as you told once (which tought u 'go India go') you better take care of her rather than our India coz Indians had no past record of backstabbing but china yes they do have .For taking care of our motherland(every inch of it) we Indian will do anything ,anything means anything ok .

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  • 58. At 12:06pm on 29 Sep 2010, Sam_Cardiff wrote:

    All I know is that Kashmirs want freedom from Indian occupation and they'll get it.

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  • 59. At 12:14pm on 29 Sep 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    severe difference of opinion between kashmiris and indians is enough to prove kashmir is not india. We hate india from the core of our heart which makes indian rule in kashmir illegal and immoral. It exists only by brute force.

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  • 60. At 1:38pm on 29 Sep 2010, injun_nc wrote:

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  • 61. At 1:39pm on 29 Sep 2010, Eric wrote:

    As "naive" as this may seem I still believe the only way out of this muddle is by means of a transparent referendum. What we need are exact numbers on how many Kashmiri's believe that partition is the only path to peace. I think it is pointless having this discussion without a prior perception of these numbers. If by any chance the fraction, who vehemently voice their discontent are actually a minority (like a few boorish individuals on this forum) I believe mere publication of these results should shatter their validity and at the same time justify India's right to curb any nefarious activities they may resort to.

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  • 62. At 1:53pm on 29 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    The demand for freedom in Kashmir, mainly in Indian Kashmir, arises from the same greed of power that led Mr Md. Ali Jinnah to create Pakistan. He used Islam as an excuse while his himself followed a typical western life style and hardly believe, leave alone following, in traditional or strict interpretation of Islam. There is also documented proof that he used to eat pork, alcohol etc. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Muhammad_Ali_Jinnah/archive1). But due to his height of hypocracy and greed, India, Pakistan and Kashmir is paying a heavy price. Any aspiring, power-hungry politician who does not have much chance to get power in traditional way (through true leadership quality), always try to form a separatist movement and project the notion that the area s/he is demanding will be better governed, more prosperous and developed once s/he get freedom and the power to rule it. It was the same promise, same rhetoric and violence that lead to creation of Pakistan with a huge promise to bring heaven (literally) on earth for Muslims of Indian sub-continent. Now we all know how that earth looks like, why many in civilized world believe that Pakistan is THE most dangerous place in the world (worse than Afghanistan and Iraq).
    Anyone can start demanding “freedom” for by his/her state or city or village with the same promise (in some pretext or other), in case s/he have narrow minded, selfish agenda to satisfy my hunger for power (and money which comes with power, at least in Indian subcontinent). Kashmiri separatist leaders are doing just that.

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  • 63. At 2:05pm on 29 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    @ #59. I wonder how these defenders of Kashmiri “freedom” will react if some Indian (Muslim or Hindu or someone else) assert that s/he hates all Kashmiris who want separation from India, who hates Indians from the core of their hearts!
    Even in this forum, at the peak of heated argument, I have not seen any Indian said that to any separatist Kashmiri.
    In that sense, if they are so hateful to India and Indian what option do they think India has to implement what India and majority of Indians think right (i.e to keep Kashmir , the whole Kashmir) as part of India? Do they ponder why Kashmir (a part of it) is still a part of India despite of two wars they and their Pakistani supporters inflicted on India? They also should think why India did not give only moral support and instigated a long time guerrilla warfare to inflict sever and sustained damage on local people of East-Pakistan to free Bangladesh. India took direct action and freed Bangladesh from the clutches of Pakistani oppressors, despite of the fact the both the countries (Pakistan and Bangladesh) was created with the same promise of Muslims.
    If separatist Kashmiris and their terrorism supporting backers, Pakistan, have the courage, conviction and ability, let them fight a direct war and achieve what they want in a more straight forward way than acting cowardly and in a way that create more problem and long term damage to the same people whom they think they are siding with.

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  • 64. At 2:23pm on 29 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    Referendum can be an option provided it accepts few pre-conditions, like:
    1) All the people and/or their subsequent generations who lived in Kashmir before 1930 must be included in that referendum. I am referring 1930 as the cut-off line before Muslim league led by Ali Jinnah and his Kashmiri supporter, Seikh Abdullah (founder of Muslim conference, later became National conference) started mainly Muslim-only agitation and ethnic cleansing against Hindus in Kashmir.
    2) Whole Kashmir (now belong to Indian, Pakistani and China) must be handed over to UN type international body before such referendum takes place. That agency must have at least 5 years (or so) to de-brief local population and put logistics in place to neutralize influence of Islamic terrorists, Pakistan and India.
    3) International body (UN) should have the right and might to enforce the verdict of that referendum. This time it should be different (unlike the UN resolution to hold a plebiscite in Kashmiri with assurance that Pakistan will vacate its part of Kashmir before any such plebiscite take place. That never happened and so did the plebiscite.

    In reality it is not possible, as it seems .

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  • 65. At 2:35pm on 29 Sep 2010, CJ Vasani wrote:

    I don't know how else to state this...I am feeling horrible that Kashmiris are losing their lives over this. They can never win this battle even if they had full support of the Pakistani Armed Forces. They have tried in past and failed. The only reason being that Kashmir is THE most militarily strategic location for India. If India gives up Kashmir, it opens the door for invasion from the North and North-West. Trust me, as long as there is some sort of order in India, it will never happen. Kashmiris should stop fighting and Indian government should take bold action to ingrain them and make the populous a fabric of mainstream India all over again (since it was the fabric of India for many many Indian civilizations pre-Islam).

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  • 66. At 2:51pm on 29 Sep 2010, Eric wrote:

    @64
    Fair enough! Interesting clauses if I might say so, though apt. About the second clause: India could still initiate a step in the right direction. It always is a pickle getting the process in motion. And as for the statement "In reality it is not possible, as it seems", true. I guess this was the same reason why someone referred to a similar suggestion of mine as being "naive" in an older discussion.

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  • 67. At 2:56pm on 29 Sep 2010, Kamal wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 68. At 2:58pm on 29 Sep 2010, Gnana wrote:

    #64. Jay: Sounds a very good option. Plebiscite, conducted by UN rather than the immediate forces in the near by area and that too after a period of time to debrief and neutralize views and emotions. If there was a plebiscite within India (excluding Kashmir) to see whether or not the Indian Government should agreen on such a move, I would definitely vote for it. I strongly belive, any decision taken when there is abundance of passion and hate might not be the right one.
    What say Mr. Bakhtawar, Sam, pzfz, Saeed Ahmad ??

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  • 69. At 3:08pm on 29 Sep 2010, Gnana wrote:

    Kamal, a kind request. Lets not make this an Islamic issue. I have a lot of Islamic friends and a "relative" as well. I don't think anyone of them share the same views as stated above. The reason for this (as I understood from a History channel documentary and also from a couple of my friends who follow Islam) seems to be because, many verses in Quran doesn't seem to be giving a deliberate and a direct meaning, which some of the radicals use it for their own advantage to exploit many vulnerable youths and inflict hatred and terrorism in their hearts.
    Apologies if my views offended you in any way.

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  • 70. At 3:30pm on 29 Sep 2010, ivcam wrote:

    How come nothing is ever reported from Pakistan Administered Kashmir?

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  • 71. At 3:40pm on 29 Sep 2010, Kamal wrote:

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  • 72. At 3:46pm on 29 Sep 2010, King Cobra wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 73. At 3:59pm on 29 Sep 2010, Realist wrote:

    Its interesting how Bakhtawar & company chose to ignore comments #14 & 33. Instead his main argument is "free Kashmir because we hate India form the core of our hearts", well speak for yourself, what a bunch of Jokers.

    India is done rewarding hateful bigots with territoy, get over it, or get lost. Period. Your only reward is a soldier's boot.

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  • 74. At 4:14pm on 29 Sep 2010, King Cobra wrote:

    IT IS ALL MISTAKE OF MAHATMA GHANDHI HE LET MUSLIMS ALLOW TO STAY IN INDIA AFTER PARTICIAN IN 1947 IN HINDU PART OF INDIA AND KASHMIR. GHANDHI HAD A BEAUTIFUL DREAM OF FUTURE BUT MUSLIMS WILL NEVER STAY PEACEFULLY WITH OTHER CULTURE"S.

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  • 75. At 4:21pm on 29 Sep 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    Real enemies of india are China and US. Once India sets kashmir free it can focus on them and we all live happily ever after. Obama is pointing to the same fact today. The common Indian should rise above petty differences and see the truth clearly. Once kashmir is ejected the resouces freed up will efficiently manage India.

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  • 76. At 4:27pm on 29 Sep 2010, kaygee wrote:

    Kashmir was independent from 14th August 1947 to October 25 1947.Azadi seeking Kashmiris should remember what happened then,unless of course Azadi means joining Pakistan.

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  • 77. At 5:02pm on 29 Sep 2010, Sam_Cardiff wrote:

    Excuse me Mr. Kamal. you r not an authority over Islam. Can you stop propagating against Islam. Stick to the topic.

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  • 78. At 5:02pm on 29 Sep 2010, Sam_Cardiff wrote:

    Gnana #68
    Plebiscite is what Kashmiris want. This is the official stand of Pakistan as well.
    There should be a Plebiscite based on the UN resolution, simple.

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  • 79. At 5:03pm on 29 Sep 2010, Sam_Cardiff wrote:

    ivcam #70
    Pakistan Administered Kashmir has no problem with Pakistan. There is a small faction which is in favour of Independant Kashmir but as such there is no struggle or movement against Pakistan.

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  • 80. At 5:05pm on 29 Sep 2010, Gnana wrote:

    Kamal, agree to what you had stated about taking any other religious book to saudi arabia. But, still think, we shouldn't make Kashmir an Islamic issue. If we try to do that, then how different are we to some of the radicals who had already inflicted so much of pain and hatred in the minds of many of our Kashmiri brethren and many of our contributors to this debate. India wouldn't be India but for the unity and ability to welcome and embrace everyone immaterial of where they are from or for what beliefs they have.
    See it this way, take any religious book through any of the ports in India, no one would question you or discriminate you. So, we should be proud of what it takes to be India / Indian. Ours is a culture that has developed over many millennia and everyone of us is proud about that. We should keep in mind it would only take one step in the direction of hate to destroy it. So, lets avoid that direction.
    Hope I make some sense?

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  • 81. At 5:08pm on 29 Sep 2010, Gnana wrote:

    #78, Sam: am wondering whether you haven't grasped what I had mentioned or am I not on what you had stated.

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  • 82. At 5:50pm on 29 Sep 2010, docrex wrote:

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  • 83. At 6:00pm on 29 Sep 2010, Financeguy wrote:

    Why dont kashmiris start writing their constitution and what they would like to achieve within five years of achieving independence. May be that will give a clear picture what they are aiming to achieve..The solution proposed by Jay in @64 wrote is fairly ideal. Why dont we see comments from Kashimiris on that count? Have kashmiris finalised what they want - Independence or joining pakistan? As I understand, UN resolutions doesnt give choice of independence..Can any kashmiri leader say what is their stand?

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  • 84. At 6:04pm on 29 Sep 2010, Financeguy wrote:

    Do we presume that a plebiscite to decide the future of an area is final? If that is the case then elections once in lifetime should be enough..but we have elections periodically in all over the west. Is it possible that the people of pakistan would still elect for independence if given a chance to repeat their choice now?

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  • 85. At 6:23pm on 29 Sep 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 86. At 6:25pm on 29 Sep 2010, Sam_Cardiff wrote:

    Gnana #81
    what was ur question?

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  • 87. At 7:15pm on 29 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    The backers of “independent” Kashmir ultimately come back to their usual whining, particularly when they have no valid argument, acceptable to any civilized, neutral view. They start crying like a kid and keep on saying “give us Kashmir”. OK. Go get Kashmir. It’s yours now!
    Did you get that “Kashmir”? No? So sad! Is that all you guys want to hear?
    Just read what I said in post # 62, 63, 64 and come up with your answers that you think is fair and ideal even for Kashmir.
    Just consider the “Islamic” angle of Kashmir conflict. Initially (till late 90s), Kashmir was equated with Palestine-Israel problem in its propaganda among Islamic nations (mainly initiated by Pakistan). Now hardly any Islamic nation, including the hardcore Saudi Arab or Iran support Pakistani or separatist Kashmiris’s stand. In last 10 or so years, how many of so-called “resolutions” did anyone find on OIC (organization of 56 Islamic Countries) proceedings? NONE. In earlier days, in 80s, it was routine affair to condemn India for “untold hardship and discrimination of Muslims in Kashmir”.
    The fact remains that India has the third largest Muslim population in the world, highest Muslim population as minority. India has almost every highest government and private positions occupied by Muslims. Lastly check the population growth rate and % of total population of Muslims in India (and compare that with any minority population in the world, mainly in Pakistan that shouts for human rights violation in Kashmir. The data is not even comparable. India treats its minority with much more restraint and value them than any country in the world, particularly majority Islamic nations.

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  • 88. At 7:22pm on 29 Sep 2010, Sam_Cardiff wrote:

    thats the problem. India doesn't realise the issue. Stop treating Kashmir as your part.
    Implement UN resolutions in Kashmir to give them right of self determination.

    India should stop killing innocent Kashmiris.

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  • 89. At 7:27pm on 29 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    We all know how great many Kashmiri Muslims (mainly the so-called “leaders” who cry for Hindus during the day and kill/drive Hindus away during the nights) are to drive away Hindus once they start getting majority. Anyone can check the statistic on Hindu population in Kashmir valley.
    I do not understand the mentality of people like Bhatawar and other Kashmiri separatists. In one hand they “hate India and Indians from core of their hearts”, yet they come back to India to beg ‘freedom”. If you hate India so much, if you do not trust India in anyway, why don’t you fight directly and get what you want? Take whatever support you can from anyone in the world, including Pakistan. They also conveniently forget that Pakistani occupied Kashmir (probably jokingly they call it “Azad Kashmir”) has lost most of its so-called “Kashmiriyat” due to sustained exploitation of that area by Pakistan. That part is one of the most underdeveloped area (as rest of the world witnessed during earth quake few years ago), and mainly used as terrorist training ground. Unlike Indian Kashmir, the population of actual Kashmiri people in POK are declining fast and the population is becoming more and more Punjabis and Sindhis (influential in Pakistan’s internal politics).

    Moreover, you seek help and/or allow Pakistan to help you out, thinking that Pakistan will not ask their share for that “kind help” and allow you to become free (from both India and Pakistan)!! How naïve a person need to be to think that way????

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  • 90. At 7:35pm on 29 Sep 2010, Harshad Trivedi wrote:

    Unfortunately it is far too late for India to gain the trust of Kashmiris. The best solution would be to follow the Hong Kong-China relationship and develop a system where Kashmir could control almost all of its own affairs, but still fly the Indian flag in Srinagar.

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  • 91. At 7:59pm on 29 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    It seems that people like Bakhtawar are now giving up on Pakistani support! They finally realized that the dog who barks too much hardly have the ability and courage to bite. Good realization. So now they think China will come up and support their terrorism and make them have their dream “Kashmir”. So Bakhtwar “hope and pray China attacks you and devestates 10 or 12 cities (of India). After this there will be no "Integral Part Rant".
    So few visa rejections, some diplomatic skirmishes with China is enough reason for such “logical” people to “hope and pray” that China will jeopardize its booming business with India (which current stands at $13.6 billion in 2004 and growing rapidly since then). Pakistan’s most favoured nation status brought business worth only $9.7 billion in 2007. It is not only the business, but China also acknowledges that the Muslim problem in China (mainly in Uighur province) has direct support from Pakistan (although not by Govt of Pakistan, but “few rogue” elements operating from Pakistani soil).
    Considering India’s growing status as regional power, booming economy and military might, it is very unlikely that China will undertake such risk to fulfill the “hope and pray” of some naïve, separatists of India. Anyway, it does not take much to day-dream.

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  • 92. At 8:07pm on 29 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    Dear Harshad Trivedi. Do you think you can satisfy a mad dog by giving him meat in a hope that it will stop demanding more? And moreover, why will anyone give something to someone simply because he demands or beg? Will USA give Alaska back to Russia (USA which purchased Allaska from Russain Tsar in 1867 with only $4.74/sq km, total $ $7,200,000.00). Russian tasr did not take opinion of local people either! May be local people are more practical and USA is more powerful than India. But logically it does not make sense. Does it?

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  • 93. At 8:20pm on 29 Sep 2010, Realist wrote:

    Appeasement does not work, last 60 years have proved that. Solution lies in treating Kashmir like any other state and liberating a chunk of POK everytime there is a border skirmish. India needs to grow a spine and live with the fact that there will never be permanent peace on the borders with the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, that is the harsh reality, learn to live with it.

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  • 94. At 8:46pm on 29 Sep 2010, Sam_Cardiff wrote:

    is there a peaceful border in India (excluding sea). India has troubled relations with China, Pakistan, Bangladesh,Nepal, Bhutan and even Sri Lanka.

    Don't forget the red corridor in central India. Naxalites have presence in more than 40% of India.

    Wake up India, before its too late. If India doesn't come out of its slumber then the ultimate result is the balkanization of India.

    If India doesn't realise the situation in Kashmir now there may be many more Kashmirs and Khalistans etc in near future.

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  • 95. At 9:55pm on 29 Sep 2010, pzfz wrote:

    I don't believe anyone sane would have a problem with the plebiscite Eric and others have mentioned. Another point one must add, the plebiscite should also include the families of the 150,000 muslims that were forced to flee their homeland by the Dogra terror regimes in Jammu and the subsequent Indian occupation forces. The Gilgitis, Baltistanis and Azad Kashmiris who are proud Pakistanis will just have to get over it and accept plebiscite too for the sake of peace.

    Apparently there are still creatures that fantasize about the ability of Indian forces to do anything against Pakistani forces in Kashmir. I guess nothing wrong with living with delusional fantasies.

    As far as the "initiative" is concerned, Kashmiris rightly refer it to as a whitewash. You can't kill 100 school kids and then say you were for the school kids all along.

    All this posturing, referendums, initiatives would not have been needed if there was a concerned dialogue about the gross human rights violations and genocide being carried out by the Indian occupation forces. If that is whole-heatedly acknowledged by the Indian regimes, action is taken, and that their people and media are presented with facts and reality not Indian state propoganda, no Kashmiri would have a problem with reluctantly becoming an autonomous region of a federal India for a shot at peace. Fat chance. Musharraf's formula HAD real vision, too bad.

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  • 96. At 10:12pm on 29 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    Mr Sam_cardiff. It seems that you hardly know either about India or Kashmir. You hardly know that India shares border with Burma (Myanmar), Nepal and Bangladesh. In case of Bangladesh, the last government there (supported by hard-line Islamic parties and killers of its own founder, Mujib-ur-Rahman) created a mess-up with its relation with India (again with typical religious fundamentalist mentality and goal). Now that problem is more or less solved. Check your facts in reputed news source.

    Moreover, it is not the problem of separatists of Kashmir to worry about India. We, the Indians, are NOT asking your help or begging those people whom we "hate from the core of our hearts". We have already shown what we are capable of, by retaining Kashmir since last half a century (despite of your best effort to get it- either free or part of pakistan) and also by liberating Bangladesh (from Pakistan). For that we did not beg help or depended on “wishful thinking” of Pakistani army or rulers or its overseas sympathesizers in internet blogs.
    In reality, it is not that if we give any part of India to Pakistan they will stop trying their best to get the rest. We are not that naive or blinded by religious fundamentalism. We do not rely on good will or wishful thinking or internal politics of Pakistan (or separatist kashmiris) to keep our country intact and proceed to develop it further (despite of so many problems). The result (in ever front) is before all of us to compare (between India and our Islamic neighbor, ( the backers of not only this specific separatist /terrorist violence in Kashmir but also in Punjab and few other places in India ).
    India, as country, need not to wake up, as we are not sleeping (although some Indian politicians pretend to sleep for obvious Muslim vote bank politics). It will be better if you remove the screen of the religion (a distorted one, of course) and stop fooling yourself in the “freedom” dream you will understand thay people like you are doing more harm and good to Kashmir and its (majority) peace loving people. Better try to develop the ability to think rationally. If you ever can, you will realize that it's the stupidity of Indian leadership that Pakistan and some part of Kashmir as part of Pakistan still exist.

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  • 97. At 10:18pm on 29 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    India, as country, needs not to wake up, as we are not sleeping (although some Indian politicians pretend to sleep for obvious Muslim vote bank politics). It will be better if you remove the screen of the religion (a distorted one, of course) and stop fooling yourself in the “freedom” dream. Then you will understand that people like you are doing more harm than good to Kashmir and its (majority) peace loving people. This separatist and terrorist campaign by active support of Pakistan is the main problem to development of that state. People like you who think getting freedom is possible and more importantly, you people can develop Kashmir once you get that coveted freedom. Political and separatist leaders can do that to you, but you yourself must not do it. Try to develop the ability to think rationally. If you ever can, you will realize that it's the stupidity of Indian leadership that Pakistan and some part of Kashmir as part of Pakistan still exist.

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  • 98. At 10:26pm on 29 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    Oh, I forgot to mention (#96) about Bhutan (as our neighbor sharing border).
    No, I will not mention about peaceful border Pakistan has with its two neighbors (only two countries shares border with Pak). I leave that to our kashmiri separatists to figure out; after all they like to build their "free" Kashmir within Pakistan (or with Pakistani model)!

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  • 99. At 10:34pm on 29 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    BTW, if anyone accept the “illegal” occupation of part of Ladakh (originally part of Kashmir, as per British India maps, but given to China after 1962 war), then Pak also shares short border with China.
    “It culminated in China seizing about 38,000 square kilometers (14,670 sq mile) of Indian territory in Aksai Chin, as well as another 5,180 sq km (2,000 sq miles) of northern Kashmir that Pakistan later ceded to Beijing under a 1963 pact” (source- CNN): http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/05/24/aksai.chin/.

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  • 100. At 10:37pm on 29 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    Check this map of kashmir (as per official Indian Govt and as British era map points out);

    http://www.cifjkindia.org/images/jk_kargil.gif

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  • 101. At 00:32am on 30 Sep 2010, pzfz wrote:

    Only a person completely divorced from reality and truth could utter the verbal inanities that the Pro-occupation ilk have displayed. Probably not surprising from a population that grows up on a steady diet of Hindutva propaganda. Pro-Kashmir groups will continue their struggle for their right to self-determination.

    P.S. One doesn't need an atlas to know that Pakistan shares a border with FOUR countries (Afghanistan, China, Iran, & India, and in the future an independent Kashmir). It would help to read reputable sources.

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  • 102. At 00:51am on 30 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    Oh, I am sorry that I missed Iran as a neighboring state of Pakistan. Sorry.
    Now coming to the Hindutva propaganda. Anyone can check my comments in many blogs by Sautik that discuss/relates to Hinduism and religion (e.g "killing for honor"- http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/soutikbiswas/2010/06/you_can_get_killed_for.html.
    Fanatic Muslims and Islamic terrorists have not and never will achieve that mental and educational state to understand the true meaning of religion, least to undertake such discussion among themselves about Islam or other religion.
    Kashmiri separatists and their Pakistani backers are fortunate that Hindu hardline (both political and otherwise) parties in India never got mass appeal (and for many good reasons) and became a national force to dictate national policy (even under BJP government), unlike Pakistan and Kashmiri separatists. Otherwise today's debate about Kashmir and Pakistan would not have existed!

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  • 103. At 01:10am on 30 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:


    This terrorism (as going on in Kashmir) is more like an addiction. And like any addicts, they never understand the damage they are doing to themselves most, than anyone else. They feel their fantasy world is THE reality and request/beg/demand everyone else to feel their fantasy world. So somebody keep supplying them the substance of abuse, they will keep on living in their own fantasy world and continue enjoying a sadistic pain. On the other hand, it helps the person who supplies the addictive substance (in form of strategic / economic / political benefits). It is in the best interest of the supplier to keep these guys on addiction than to help them get rid of that. Pakistan is serving the role of the supplier here. It is unfortunate that many misguided youth of Kashmir is ruining their future and talent in dancing with the tune of Pakistan. Grow up, open your eyes and enjoy and build a better world that includes Kashmir.

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  • 104. At 02:19am on 30 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    Muslim fundamentalists and other Hindu haters in Kashmir and elsewhere can think about the report from a new survey (undertook by reputed PEW forum) in USA that shows, “Nearly half of Hindus in the U.S., one-third of Jews and a quarter of Buddhists have obtained post-graduate education, compared with only about one-in-ten of the adult population overall. Hindus and Jews are also much more likely than other groups to report high income levels”.
    Report: http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

    That same survey also shows that atheist and agnostics know more about religion than believers. In that sense, should we assume that more you know about religion, less you believe in it!

    The unaffiliated are a large group. They (atheists and agnostics ) make up about one-sixth of the adult population, but they're internally diverse. Some are atheists that are committed to the notion that there is no God. Others are agnostics. They believe you can't really know.
    Source: PBS (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/religion/jan-june08/americanfaith_06-23.html)

    Anyway, coming to the point now.
    IN reality India is a secular country simply because Hindus are majority. I doubt how separatist Kashmiri leaders and their supporters plan to shape their dream country! Will that be a secular one and give equal rights to each and every citizens (irrespective of religion), at least constitution-wise, as per true tradition of Kashmiri history? I doubt. Neither India nor this world can afford another breeding ground and major exporter of Islamic terrorists in already charged atmosphere of Indian sub-continent.

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  • 105. At 02:26am on 30 Sep 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 106. At 02:47am on 30 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    Dear Bakhtawar, do you know the extent of success of any of those "struggles" so far (for Basque ETA, Tamil LTTE, or Irish IRA or Pakistan sponsored Khalistan movement in India)? Almost all are crushed by now. Moreovver, NONE of them (except IRA to some extent) uses religion for their fight (directly as an official excuse OR indirectly as in Kashmir).
    Do you know what type of people embrace (convert to) Islam and what type of countries embrace Islam? And what is their progress report? Have you ever seen that any established, well reputed person embrace Islam (NOT before s/he got famous/rich, but after)? Md Ali did not embrace Islam after he became famous, neither did AR Rahman (of India). (Truly) educated people give less importance to so-callled traditional religion, but give priority to humanity and civilization.
    Except few exceptions, the quality of manpower that embrace Islam is not that great, to say the least. That’s one of the main problems with Islam, globally. That's why mere number does not prove anything. Any religion or "ideology" that call for revenge or support violence to promote its own agenda (that find attractive to a person who think s/he is a victim of something) is bound to have a mass appeal among less educated, less-fortunate population (who tend to blame everyone else for their own misery).
    Anyone can study the history of Middle east, before and after Islam. That place of the world, wich was very rich in civilization (science, technology, arts, culture etc) started deteriorating fast once Islam started spreading there. Probably the world history would have been different if internal combustion engine (in the west) and then huge oil deposit (in Mid-east) was not discovered OR discovered late.

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  • 107. At 02:51am on 30 Sep 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    kashmiris have always maintained ours is a democratic struggle. India uses "islam" and "Jehad" as buzzwords to usurp our land, kill or maime our children.

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  • 108. At 02:56am on 30 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    So far your “GO back India” is concerned, let me tell you that you are fortunate that you are living in India which has not told you (so far, at least) that if you do not like to be considered as an “Indian” and hate to live in that country, then please leave it without further delay and go somewhere else where you find similar minded people and/or can live as a “muhazir” (I know you understand what is “muhazir”).
    If you are not finding any logical debate attractive, you are more than welcome to use brute force to get what you want. Go and get it, why nagging! I just wish you good luck for your (otherwise) bright future. Be peace upon you and Kashmir.

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  • 109. At 03:00am on 30 Sep 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    @jay we were talking about independece struggles that exist unrelated to islam. As such many exist across the globe. The extent of their sucess was not a parameter. It was aimed at psychophants who have no valid argument and hold islam as premise for all independence movements around the globe.

    BTW cnn had this article recently which spoke about EU ecnomomy being hinged on islamic nations. Turns out that islamic model of finance has been a great hit against the recession, or finance in general. go to CNN and search for "harrods recession" and you may hit this.

    Again despite all odds islam still is the largest growing religion in the world.

    Finally if you ask kashmiri's there is no need to link our islam with our struggle. Our first martyr was a british gentleman named robert thorpe. He could not withstand the plight of our people and spoke against the tyrants. We dont even have basic rights so islam is not even involved here.

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  • 110. At 03:08am on 30 Sep 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    those people who mention that elections in kashmir needs to know that the belligerent Indian army overwhelms people at such times, despite this turnout in city is 4 to 8%. In countryside people dont even get to see the polling booths, India's intelligence decides who to elect and the brilliant army excercise the franchise for people who always elude it.

    Gentelemen hence proved that "Elections in kashmir" are the biggest farce in the history of India's existacne.

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  • 111. At 03:10am on 30 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    If you, Bakhtawar, think that, "kashmiris have always maintained ours is a democratic struggle. India uses "islam" and "Jehad" as buzzwords to usurp our land, kill or maimed our children", they why you find support ONLY from a Islamic state that export global Islamic terrorism? Why no civilized, democratic country supports you now anymore? Why UN is not coming forward to help you guys out? I know you will say the same old cliché of Israel, US, West story. But grow little beyond it and see the reality.
    Islamic separatist did just that (what you are now accusing India of) to traditional inhabitants of Kashmir and became majority.
    Ask your leaders and Pakistani backers if they will introduce secularism in POK and/or "free" Kashmir (if they ever get it)? Let me know any statement from any leader who support this Islamic terrorism in Kashmir (in guise of "freedom struggle"). Whatever is going on in Kashmir in the name of “freedom struggle” is nothing but part of global Islamic terrorism and for which Pakistan is the epicenter just like the recent one in Europe “Al-Qaeda terror plot targeting Europe uncovered”, originated and prepared from Pakistani soil, as usual. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11432849

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  • 112. At 03:29am on 30 Sep 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    I describe kashmiri's and you ask to describe pakistani's. You are indian and should be describing Indians. The Indians who mowed down a generation of kashmiri's 20 years back , or did same in Punjab or in North east. I have not forgotten the TV coverage of scores of Naked naga women outside Indain army camp because half the village had been raped. Todays kashmiri does not even hold the gun, the only terrorist here in the Indian army who hold a million kashmiris to the force of the bayonet. This is the only bond left between India and kashmir "Be Indian or get Killed." We Shun this as well always did begining with Robert Thrope.

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  • 113. At 03:31am on 30 Sep 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    correction : Robert Thorpe ( one can google for keywords "robert thorpe kashmir" and imagine the tyranny we always faced)

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  • 114. At 04:53am on 30 Sep 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 115. At 09:06am on 30 Sep 2010, jet225 wrote:

    This Bhaktwar guy looks like he's ready to go. He started out with naive bluster and now he's fervently praying for China to attack India. Happy dreams in your LaLa land dude. Just one thing, too much hate is not good for your health.

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  • 116. At 10:12am on 30 Sep 2010, sitikant wrote:

    Its surprising people from a country which has never enjoyed the joy of living in a democracy- forever been under oppression by the military, talk about fair elections in the neighbouring countries and lack of democracy. I can only laugh when I read such comments.

    I loved SM Krishna's recent comment in United Nations speech where he has very nicely asked Pakistan to first " Set their own house in order before commenting on others state"- - very reasonable comment I am sure and most will agree.

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  • 117. At 10:24am on 30 Sep 2010, sitikant wrote:

    I wish pakistan could try and make the best of the part of Kashmir that it illegally has occupied for so many years. That would have seriously encouraged people in the Indian part to may be consider defecting to Pakistan. Seeing the sorry state of affairs in most states in Pakistan, I can only say that I would further pity people who still wished to join Pakistan in its current state. So best is - rather that spending obscene amount of money in trying to create havoc in neighbouring countries and praying that China has war with India, pakistan should concentrate on improving its current state. I bet the military wont allow it as stable pakistan would mean - end to its military regime....... and that they will never allow for their own vested interests.

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  • 118. At 10:37am on 30 Sep 2010, Sam_Cardiff wrote:



    No matter how many lines of text you write, you still can not hide the GROSS VOILATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS IN INDIAN OCCUPIED KASHMIR.

    No matter what you say, you CANNOT JUSTIFY KILLINGS OF MORE THAN 100 INNOCENT KIDS IN 100 DAYS.

    No matter how hard you try, you can not hide the facts and the fact is that KASHMIRIS DO NOT WANT TO STAY WITH INDIA.

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  • 119. At 10:49am on 30 Sep 2010, jet225 wrote:

    To people like Sam_Cardiff and Bhakwastar, i say, tough titties guys. Come here to BBC, vent your crazies and go back to your mum's basement. We are not even bothered. Watch my word. Obama will come to India in November with strict orders, not mention the K word even in passing just like David Cameron. Me very pleased.

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  • 120. At 10:54am on 30 Sep 2010, Freedom wrote:

    Regional tension causes a big economical loss for both countries. Million of people in India and Pakistan are living under the poverty line and both countries are spending billion of dollars on Military and military equipment.This is really stupid. Why political leaders of both countries are not able to spend these billion of dollars on poor and needy people. Why both countries are helpless to make major social-economical reform to provide the people their basic need like education, health, food and housing. Think about it- major cause of political unrest is ecnomical supression. Give the people their economical and social rights and they will never come on streets. Hindu and Muslim have 1000 years common history and people of both religion belong to the same race. They are native of subcontinent and will remain native of subcontinent. The change in the borders and creating new borders can not make them happy. Only economical and social reforms can make them happy.

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  • 121. At 11:00am on 30 Sep 2010, Gnana wrote:

    Kamal, thanks for not having posted one single message to make this debate of kashmir become an Islamist struggle. Hats off to you!!. However, I wonder why Mr. bakhtawar and pzfz, are trying to make it look so.
    Make one thing clear, are you guys fighting for Kashmiri independence or are you guys trying to prove Islam is the largest religion in the world or is it that India is dominated by Hindu ideology and they are against Islam?
    If its the third, you guys have to understand that there are Muslims in India which only account for a few hundred thousands less than the whole population of Pakistan and Kashmir put together. They are happy to be in India as Indians. I agree that there are some hindu radicals in India, who try to undermine India and its values of secularism. However, that doesn’t stop India as a whole to take steps against them and say in one voice stop your blunder and violence and be an Indian.
    If you are arguing for the second point, then I reckon you are on the wrong blog.
    If you are arguing for the first point, you don’t seem to make any point towards it. You don’t seem to have any determination on what is meant by peace for Kashmir and you don’t seem to have any credible views on how to plan the future of Kashmir even if its granted independence.
    I still would like to give the benefit of doubt in your favour. So, if we’ve had you in a corner because of which, you had let your emotions explode (like in #85), then we are ready to give you that bit of breathing space and come up with good and sound logic and steps that would rationally be helpful for Kashmir’s betterment. Rather than wasting your energy in such hate mongering agenda, work towards Kashmir’s betterment in finding out how / who / what resources are available to build up Kashmir as a good nation, with good governance and how to protect it from terrorism once it gains independence, how to eliminate any terrorist who are already present in your soil, how to build up jobs and education in your community, how to build up your infrastructure etc.. If you can achieve, this, not only the Indian population, the whole world would be standing shoulder to shoulder to help your cause.
    Reckon, if you are truly patriotic for Kashmir, and if you really speak for Kashmiri community, you would definitely try and work on such positive measures. However, if you wouldn’t want to do such things, then I don’t have anything more to say.

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  • 122. At 11:46am on 30 Sep 2010, Gnana wrote:

    #120 - Freedom: well said. Much appreciate. Hope such a day would come soon.. and as someone had mentioned earlier in another blog, Lets pray and imagine in those lines of John Lennon
    "Imagine there's no countries, It isn't hard to do, Nothing to kill or die for, And no religion too, Imagine all the people, Living life in peace"

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  • 123. At 1:41pm on 30 Sep 2010, JackTheLad29 wrote:

    Comments 14 & 33 by SuperDriveGuy,
    make perfect sense to me. thanks.

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  • 124. At 2:30pm on 30 Sep 2010, Freedom wrote:

    I would like to put question to all contributors; Who is creating/spreading hatered between Hindu and Muslims. Who has ruled the india with the concept " Divide and rule".
    Same forces are still working and would like to divide india more. It is easy to understand; the more division of india will create more regional conflicts. More regional conflicts means more spending on Military equipment. This division will make weapon industry more happy. And tax payer money will be used for purchasing weapons rather than spending it on social welfare programme.

    We people of India, Pakistan and Kashmir have to think that unity assure our survival not disintigraty.

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  • 125. At 3:31pm on 30 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    The blinded by harted, people like bkhtawar, Sam-cardiff and some more are hitting India on human rights violation. They conveniently forget what Pakistan does to its citizens (including in POK), what outside world consider thier human rights abuse, mainly as compared to India. I am mentioning Pakistan simply because that country occupies a major portion of that area, yet no Muslim separatist utter much criticism against that and moreover, whole Kashmir problem in India is directly sponsored by Pakistan. Their silence and avoidance of that aspect (which is intricately related to Kashmir problem in India) gives us the understanding og Islamic terrorism angle in Indian Kashmir.
    No discussion of Kashmir will be meaningful without bringing Pakistan into the picture.

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  • 126. At 3:33pm on 30 Sep 2010, jayp4u wrote:

    I think the issue or rather the conflict is not as straight forward as decsribed here. The is a very complex and sesitive matter which has its roots spread deep in the public and in politics. No one refutes that this is the issue with the utmost urgency and needs to be resolved. I still believe that a common kashmiri is desperate to live a normal life with peace and do not blame them for what they have been protesting for. On the other I believe pursuing peace does not matter but more than that it matters the route you take to pursue this dream. So far govt. of India has said that are willing to speak to anyone who can come up with a solution, this should be taken as a golden oppurtunity to raise the concerns in a more civilized manner and start a movement towards getting a more reliable and a permanent solution.

    I firmly believe that this is not the time to cry upon the past but to reach out to a resolution in a more civilised and peaceful way. There may people and organisations which will never want this peace process to happen and will use everything in their power to publicise new propaganda in order to make sure people still die in conflicts. So far this has been a major deterrent in any peace process which is being carried out in the region.

    People with low morality and confidence are the people who label these conflicts in the name of religion. Doesn't matter what religion kashmiri follows, they are still human beings. They feel hunger, they feel pain and thier blood is red as well. These discriminations as I mentioned are raised by the people who do not pursue peace but voilence. Just for a small amount of time if people can think outside the box, I am sure they will find there is more to anyone's life then watching their people die in conflict.

    In an angry mob it is very easy for you to get angry but its the opposite if you want to calm and analyse the situation. The same applies to all the blogs, literature etc...the more you ignite hatered the more it will bound to catch you. No one will ever be able to gather constructive energy specially while dispersing poisonous anger.

    Mark Twain once said "You can’t depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus."

    I beleieve, I do not have a right nor does anyone in this blog to enrage and incite hatered, there is already enough out there killing as many people. Hatered generated in literatures have caused deads and people should understand there is a line between in what they say thinking it is their freedom to do so and cause deaths to the innocents who bear the cost for it.

    Being an Indian I feel pain for people in kashmir and hope the peace prevails in kashmir. I hope the people in kashmir understand that they have to take a new approach towards pursuing peace.

    NAMASTE - As-Salamu Alaykum - God bless


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  • 127. At 3:37pm on 30 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    If we or any independent agency compare India and Pakistan's role in treating its minority we can have a clear idea what some Pakistani (within and outside Pak Govt) and some Kashmiri Islamic terrorists want. Read the 2004 UNHCR report:

    UNHCR report on Human rights abuse in Pakistan (2004; much before Taliban took over a large part of that country and when Pakistan was a “close friend’ of USA): http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,,CHRON,PAK,,469f38c678,0.html

    Dec 1992: “Muslims attacked temples across Pakistan and the government of this overwhelmingly Muslim nation closed offices and schools for one day to protest the destruction of the Babri mosque in India”. This is a state sponsored “bandh” (general strike) that interferes with Indian internal affair.

    Jan 1993: “A COMPARISON BETWEEN THE HUMAN RIGHTS RECORDS OF INDIA AND PAKISTAN IN 1992, WHICH WAS RELEASED BY THE US STATE DEPARTMENT, REVEALS THAT IF HUMAN RIGHTS WERE CONSIDERED TO BE ABUSED IN INDIA, THEN THE SITUATION IN PAKISTAN COULD ONLY BE DESCRIBED AS "APPALLING", WITH HUMAN RIGHTS "BRUTALIZED" ON A SYSTEMATIC BASIS. The State Department accused Pakistan of persecuting minority Hindus, Christians and Ahmadis. Hindus asserted that they are subject to kidnappings, the forced conversions of young women, and the desecration of Hindu shrines. They also state that they are not permitted to freely practice their religion.”.
    We need to remember that this US state department assessment was much before 9/11 and when US was a very close friend of Pakistan, more than India.

    From Pakistan’s perspective one can read the following BBC news: “The Pakistani military has been often accused of carrying out extrajudicial killings of Taliban suspects to avenge militant attacks on military targets”: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/south_asia/10556707.stm

    It seems that separatist Kashmir people are so obsessed with human rights abuse by Indian security forces. Even many of the separatists accept that Indian Govt or constitution does not “abuse” Kashmir, but some rogue elements in security forces does. While in Pakistan and POK, this discrimination against Kashmir and minority is systemic and with full support from Pakistani establishment. Just use the same yard stick to judge India and Pakistan, so far Kashmir is concerned.

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  • 128. At 3:38pm on 30 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    If we or any independent agency compare India and Pakistan's role in treating its minority we can have a clear idea what some Pakistani (within and outside Pak Govt) and some Kashmiri Islamic terrorists want. Read the 2004 UNHCR report:

    UNHCR report on Human rights abuse in Pakistan (2004; much before Taliban took over a large part of that country and when Pakistan was a “close friend’ of USA): http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,,CHRON,PAK,,469f38c678,0.html

    Dec 1992: “Muslims attacked temples across Pakistan and the government of this overwhelmingly Muslim nation closed offices and schools for one day to protest the destruction of the Babri mosque in India”. This is a state sponsored “bandh” (general strike) that interferes with Indian internal affair.

    Jan 1993: “A COMPARISON BETWEEN THE HUMAN RIGHTS RECORDS OF INDIA AND PAKISTAN IN 1992, WHICH WAS RELEASED BY THE US STATE DEPARTMENT, REVEALS THAT IF HUMAN RIGHTS WERE CONSIDERED TO BE ABUSED IN INDIA, THEN THE SITUATION IN PAKISTAN COULD ONLY BE DESCRIBED AS "APPALLING", WITH HUMAN RIGHTS "BRUTALIZED" ON A SYSTEMATIC BASIS. The State Department accused Pakistan of persecuting minority Hindus, Christians and Ahmadis. Hindus asserted that they are subject to kidnappings, the forced conversions of young women, and the desecration of Hindu shrines. They also state that they are not permitted to freely practice their religion.”.
    We need to remember that this US state department assessment was much before 9/11 and when US was a very close friend of Pakistan, more than India.

    From Pakistan’s perspective one can read the following BBC news: “The Pakistani military has been often accused of carrying out extrajudicial killings of Taliban suspects to avenge militant attacks on military targets”: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/south_asia/10556707.stm

    It seems that separatist Kashmir people are so obsessed with human rights abuse by Indian security forces. Even many of the separatists accept that Indian Govt or constitution does not “abuse” Kashmir, but some rogue elements in security forces does. While in Pakistan and POK, this discrimination against Kashmir and minority is systemic and with full support from Pakistani establishment. Just use the same yard stick to judge India and Pakistan, so far Kashmir is concerned.

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  • 129. At 3:43pm on 30 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    Why BBC is moderating and making my post “awaiting moderation” while it is publishing the posts from people like Bakhtawar even when he openly incites hatred and violence against India and Indians?

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  • 130. At 4:19pm on 30 Sep 2010, jayp4u wrote:

    I think the issue or rather the conflict is not as straight forward as decsribed here. The is a very complex and sesitive matter which has its roots spread deep in the public and in politics. No one refutes that this is the issue with the utmost urgency and needs to be resolved. I still believe that a common kashmiri is desperate to live a normal life with peace and do not blame them for what they have been protesting for. On the other I believe pursuing peace does not matter but more than that it matters the route you take to pursue this dream. So far govt. of India has said that are willing to speak to anyone who can come up with a solution, this should be taken as a golden oppurtunity to raise the concerns in a more civilized manner and start a movement towards getting a more reliable and a permanent solution.

    I firmly believe that this is not the time to cry upon the past but to reach out to a resolution in a more civilised and peaceful way. There may people and organisations which will never want this peace process to happen and will use everything in their power to publicise new propaganda in order to make sure people still die in conflicts. So far this has been a major deterrent in any peace process which is being carried out in the region.

    People with low morality and confidence are the people who label these conflicts in the name of religion. Doesn't matter what religion kashmiri follows, they are still human beings. They feel hunger, they feel pain and thier blood is red as well. These discriminations as I mentioned are raised by the people who do not pursue peace but voilence. Just for a small amount of time if people can think outside the box, I am sure they will find there is more to anyone's life then watching their people die in conflict.

    In an angry mob it is very easy for you to get angry but its the opposite if you want to calm and analyse the situation. The same applies to all the blogs, literature etc...the more you ignite hatered the more it will bound to catch you. No one will ever be able to gather constructive energy specially while dispersing poisonous anger.

    Mark Twain once said "You can’t depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus."

    I beleieve, I do not have a right nor does anyone in this blog to enrage and incite hatered, there is already enough out there killing as many people. Hatered generated in literatures have caused deads and people should understand there is a line between in what they say thinking it is their freedom to do so and cause deaths to the innocents who bear the cost for it.

    Being an Indian I feel pain for people in kashmir and hope the peace prevails in kashmir. I hope the people in kashmir understand that they have to take a new approach towards pursuing peace.

    NAMASTE - As-Salamu Alaykum - God bless

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  • 131. At 5:00pm on 30 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    There are several issues in this Kashmir problem. Let's try to separate those.

    1. Is this unrest in Kashmir is against atrocities committed by Indian security force? Against "lack of development (education, job etc) in Kashmir"?
    If the answer is "yes"- then focus on that. Address that issue. There are established norm to oppose that in legislative assembly within the state and in federal level. Did Kashmiri people force their elected representative on that part? How separatist leaders (who mainly incite this violence) proposes an alternative without asking freedom? Why those who favour "freedom" of Kashmir take part in free election (UN and EU accepted Kashmiri election as "free and fair") and present a better solution to the people of Kashmir? If Kashmiri politicians tried that and failed due to Special protection towards security force, then address that issue and create conducive environment to force Indian government to re-consider its position. It takes time, but definitely faster than trying to achieve in violent, separatist way (after all they tried that for last 25 years or more). Even the Naxals in central India (the “greatest security threat to India, as per Indian PM) can never succeed in their armed struggle despite the fact that majority of local people support their cause. I myself am sympathetic with their justified grievances but do not support their ultimate goal (to establish a socialist/communist country) and ways to achieve that. The same logic goes to Kashmir. If the goal of this agitation is to oppose corruption, atrocities by security forces, atrocities by Islamic terrorists and cross-border terrorism, then many of Indians, including myself will be with you.

    If the answer is "No", then ask yourselves what is the goal of this agitation? Do not expect the same treatment from the security force or the government if you are fighting a hidden agenda ("freedom" and/or establishment of an Islamic republic with or without being part of Pakistan).

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  • 132. At 5:31pm on 30 Sep 2010, Annavaram wrote:

    this, again, is one of those fussy controversies India has been grappling with ever since she became an independent nation. oh! by the way, has India ever become a nation? some of my friends in academia will certainly have pertinent explanations in this regard, and some of those explanations cannot simply be denied anyway. but that's a separate topic altogether. coming back to Kashmir controversy, one of the prominent contentions of the present article is: will the proposed mediation really succeed? nowadays in India it's very difficult to expect any concrete success or solution for perennial problems. for government echelons - politicians and bureaucrats - it has become a prerogative to keep things in a cold water. I don't think Kashmir controversy will have any exception to this trend.
    the only hope people like me can live with is the civilian rationality. common citizens, who are the real victims of prolonged controversies, should rise one day and come up with apolitical alternatives. "Wait and Watch" seems to be the only pragmatic approach feasable at this stage.
    at any rate, I cannot close my comment without expressing my appreciations for Biswas who never goes back from putting things in a right perspective.

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  • 133. At 5:44pm on 30 Sep 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    I see a lot of hypothesis there but all this is lame in face of 100 days of curfew and 109 dead. Or 63 years and not a single day kashmiri was indian at heart. These senseless walls of text have no real premise. Kashmir issue exists, it is a widepread fact which also exists as UN resolutions. Separation from India is the only potent solution.

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  • 134. At 6:00pm on 30 Sep 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    congratulations #132 Mr. Annavaram you are the first indian comment maker who sounded rational given the main course of this article ( which should have been the object of discussion w.r.t comments that appear here, morally speaking). walls of text before you challenge the very premise of why BBC even allows comments.

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  • 135. At 6:53pm on 30 Sep 2010, Kamal wrote:

    Bakhtawar: (#133)

    You Say:

    I see a lot of hypothesis there but all this is lame in face of 100 days of curfew and 109 dead. Or 63 years and not a single day kashmiri was indian at heart.

    I Say:
    If, You spread the news that some non Muslim has made cartoons of Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) and that some one burnt the Koran. Trust me, world would see much more dead and unrest through out the world.


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  • 136. At 6:56pm on 30 Sep 2010, Sam_Cardiff wrote:

    you people are really good in diverting the attention.

    QUESTION here is not how minorities are treated in Pakistan. The question is WHEN WILL INDIA STOP KILLING INNOCENT KASHMIRI KIDS.

    WHEN WILL INDIA STOP RESPONDING STONES WITH BULLETS.

    By the way not many Indians think they way most Indian hard liners are projecting here.

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  • 137. At 7:43pm on 30 Sep 2010, Jay wrote:

    People like Sam-cardiff does not know that if a person consumes potassium cyanide, s/he should have a pre-determined fate, whether s/he likes it or not. It is useless to ask, time and time again, that when can I consume potassium cyanide and remain alive! If it ever happened, then please do not think that physics or chemistry has changed but feel yourself fortunate that you had an adulterated Potassium cyanide, or ate something else.
    If a democratic, secular country (India or any other country) allows some religious fanatics to get away with a part of the country, then it will be the end of that government or that country. No sane country will ever allow that. Neither India will or should. It is true for any of the countries that are facing some kind of separatist movement – Ireland/UK, Spain, France, Russia, China, Indonesia, Turkey , Nigeria, Sudan and many more.

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  • 138. At 10:08pm on 30 Sep 2010, Kamal wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 139. At 10:43pm on 30 Sep 2010, indian mathematician wrote:

    The great Indian film producer has been highly critical of both India and Pakistan to resolve the Kashmiri issue. I don't know what the soluton should be.
    My main concern is the monstrous human rights abuses against the women in particular. We have mothers, sisters, wives, daughters. The unspeakable acts performed against the women folk of Kashmir by the Indian army - if we stop to think about would give us sleepless nights. I am disappointed that the people of India are happy to look the other way, or pretend it doesn't happen. Place yourselves in the situation for a minute and see how you would feel if that happened to a female relative. Whilst India is becoming a global leader in almost everything -on the subject of human rights it is medieval. Have a look at Amnesty, Human Rights Watch and many of the Indian HR groups. Anyone who cannot be disturbed by the thought of a woman being gang raped (anywhere in the world) should hang themselves in shame.
    Mahesh has asked Indians to wake up to this.

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