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Have the India-Pakistan peace talks collapsed?

Soutik Biswas | 13:34 UK time, Friday, 16 July 2010

Indian Foreign Minister SM Krishna and his Pakistani counterpart Shah Mehmood Qureshi Are India and Pakistan back to square one as far as peace talks are concerned? Has the dialogue between South Asia's warring neighbours - which appeared to be limping back to some normalcy in the past six months - collapsed?

Triggering off this frenzied debate in India has been Pakistan Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi's surprising outburst on Friday blaming India for the talks deadlock: "It seems India is not mentally prepared to engage in a dialogue," he said.

Mr Qureshi's feelings appear to have been provoked by familiar frustrations that have traditionally bedevilled ties between the two sides. Only this time, Pakistan appears to be complaining about India's inflexibility - meaning, among other things, a refusal to discuss thornier issues like Kashmir - impeding a fair dialogue. This is nothing new. India has always held Pakistan is obsessed with Kashmir; Pakistan says India cannot see beyond alleged Pakistani involvement in the 2008 Mumbai attacks.

What prompted Mr Qureshi's sudden broadside against India even as his Indian counterpart was getting ready to board the flight to Delhi? Many in Delhi say that the Pakistani establishment was seething after India's Home Secretary, GK Pillai, accused the Pakistani spy agency Inter-Services Intelligence of being involved in the Mumbai attacks on the eve of the talks. Some are already wondering whether the comments were deliberately aimed to derail the talks - Delhi's foreign policy pundits talks about hawks and doves in the government who are divided over the need for talks with Pakistan. On the other hand, most Indians believe that the Pakistani leadership is not doing enough to rein in militants launching attacks on India, and clerics indulging in hate campaigns against India.

What left most baffled was Mr Qureshi's personal attack on Mr Krishna, that he kept interrupting their meeting by taking calls from Delhi - something which many in India find a breach of diplomatic etiquette. Mr Krishna has denied the allegation.

But then nobody expected any dramatic breakthroughs in the Islamabad talks. The Indian media echoed the sentiment in their coverage today. One bland headline simply said: "India, Pakistan decide to remain engaged." That is how low expectations are in India about ties with its estranged sibling these days.India-Pakistan peace rally in Lahore

But browsing the Pakistani media, I came away with the impression that the frustration was higher on the other side of the border. The News, a Pakistan daily, lamented that the talks had "collapsed, not for the sheer absence of the right momentum, but because of India's inflexibility."

Clearly, Mr Qureshi's outburst will make it difficult for India to sell the talks to its people - a leader of the main opposition BJP, a Hindu nationalist party, has already demanded that talks be called off. But the two sides need to keep talking. Because when it comes to two nuclear-armed hostile neighbours, not talking can be more perilous for both. Pakistan's frustration with a stalemate should not surprise many. "Stalemate [between India and Pakistan] seems to be more attractive to each side than finding a solution," says Stephen Cohen, a regional specialist at the Brookings Institution, a US foreign policy think tank. The problem is that this prolonged, agonising stalemate hurts the people of both the countries, and ensures the region's future remains in jeopardy.

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  • 1. At 3:10pm on 16 Jul 2010, Autar Dhesi wrote:

    The talks have to really get going before they can collapse. There have been numerous get to-gethers for one reason or the other but no serious dialogues. The basic problem is lack of trust in one another's intentions.
    Hope the two sister states would be able to remove the hidden roadblocks one day for the good of poor people on both sides.

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  • 2. At 3:41pm on 16 Jul 2010, nadlucky7 wrote:

    Extremely sad to read that the talks have yet again resulted in accusations and resentment from both sides. Do our diplomatic leaders have no common sense? Is it really all about playing this blame game? Just amazing. I echo this sentiment as a Pakistani, and very much hold my own government responsible for being narrow-minded and extremely regressive in nature. Learn something from India rather than battling over a land and pointing fingers. For once, use the example of India's rapid growth, development in its technology sector.. try and develop your own economy for Godsakes. Educate your citizens. Why on earth are you still talking about Kashmir and Siachen glacier and who was responsible for Mumbai? For crying out loud .. Mumbai happened, we should be saddened and disgusted by it and go out of our way to find the perpetrators rather than launching a dialogue consisting of "you accused our ISI of being involved and bla bla" .. well what if they were involved. Look into it dammit and find the sources. It is very frustrating reading articles like this. A lot will argue that the Indians are also to blame for the finger pointing and break down in talks, but sadly, I must say, at least they are taking care of their economy and doing the things that matter. Give up Kashmir for Gods sakes. Make peace, learn from your larger neighbor and try and make the country progress. What happened 63 years ago should not be at the forefront of every discussion. Move on already.. It's old now. Work towards bilateral trade - have economic incentives that are likely to benefit both countries.. boost employment, increase literacy rates, lower poverty. These are factors common to both India and Pakistan - why not work together and use the wealth of knowledge between the educated groups of the two and put Hindu/Muslim rivalry aside? This is for the people of the region, not for India or Pakistan or Hindu's or Muslims alone.

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  • 3. At 4:45pm on 16 Jul 2010, sunny grewal wrote:

    You have to give quite a bit of kudos to India for its restraint in dealing with its less than co-operative neighbor. There are not many countries in the world which posses military might over their neighbors yet favor a peaceful resolution rather than all out war when said neighbor has an intelligence agency devoted to massacring innocent civilians and fomenting unrest.

    But alas, nothing will come out of the talks with Pakistan. Dealing with that country is like asking your neighbor for a fire hose after he has set your house on fire, for a price of course.

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  • 4. At 5:50pm on 16 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    The reality is: India and Pakistan is far apart in their opinions and also objective for Kashmir. It is almost impossible for Pakistan to accept Indian position while it is the same for India to accept Pak position on Kashmir.
    If situation in Pakistan improves (economically and militarily) it will put more pressure on India (in Kashmir and many other issues) to improve its self-imposed guardian (of pan-Islamic brotherhood) image; and if the situation deteriorates it (Pak leadership) will try to create trouble in India to stay in business as fundamentalist interpretation of Islam and Kashmir always touches the raw nerve of general Pakistani people and among many Kashmiri Muslims. On the other hand, Kashmiri Muslims who dream about real freedom (from both India and Pakistan) will never accept Kashmir as part of any nation even though none of the nations will accept.
    Whenever Pakistani government and army face internal and/or external problem(s) it has almost no option but to rake up the Kashmir issue (against India) and nuclear blackmail (for international community). Pakistan constantly needs at least one foreign enemy to remain an intact, viable nation. Now it is up to the Kashmiri people to understand where their interests will be best served. In present world it is next to impossible to settle such disputes by war, although it seems that is the only way which India and Pakistan will (or have to) ultimately take. These two nations speak and also understand two totally different languages in case of Kashmir. It is not of much use to blame Pakistan and Pakistani sponsored terrorism for troubles in Indian Kashmir. India must be ready to pay the price for freedom and peace. INDIAN POLITICAL LEADERSHIP MUST LEARN THE LANGUAGE PAKISTANI POLITICAL LEADERS AND SOME KASHMIRI SEPARATISTS/TERRORISTS UNDERSTAND. India must prepare itself for that (economically, militarily and most importantly diplomatically). Eventually, we have to be ready to use force when all discussion fails without solving the interests of two nations.

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  • 5. At 6:36pm on 16 Jul 2010, Pras_n_Srini wrote:

    As Autar Desai stated, the talks have to get going before collapsing.

    Basically, Pakistan has since no-later-than 1958 (when Ayub Khan took over as de-jure, as well as de-facto, tyrant) based its EXISTENCE on a hatred of India--as shown by its refusal to purge the thoroughly-debunked (Pakistanis don't even know that the idea was based on an idea binned by 656 AD, "one-nation Islam") "2-nation theory" after 1971, and its refusal to even LEARN from the consequences of its own Naziesque actions then. Abdul Hamid "maulana" Bhashani (hardly pro-Indian, he led an anti-Farrakha protest in Dhaka just prior to his bucket-kicking) had even stated in 1960's that Pakistan needed to wake up to "we HAVE our nation, let's develop it--and stop blaming India, it's now a non-factor"--and his words are still true nearly a half-century later!

    Till Pakistan figures this out, talks will never progress

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  • 6. At 9:01pm on 16 Jul 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    Hey #4 what do you mean by 656 AD. Can we stop this Hate mongering business. India now has more poor than Africa. The 125 billion that it spends on business is the painful truth which makes a mockery of these poor. What is more painful is a that a part of this money goes into pockets of the corruppt and the greedy.

    Yes Sir , your own army ( by now you must ve known how fake those medals are) , your own goevernment, is screwing you (to keep their shop running i.e Rajiv was involved in Bofors) and all you can see is HATE !! HATERED !!! HATE!!!!

    By your "theory of 656AD" Saudi , UAE ,Iran , Iraq , the vaious stans that USSR left behind, Malaysia , Indonesia, Brunei......(ok 61 around the globe have a muslims majority) all should have been one country. Can go to your favorite epoch and explain me why this is not the case.

    WAKE UP !!! PEOPLE !!!!

    I am no advocate of Pak , now dont throw up on that .

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  • 7. At 9:04pm on 16 Jul 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    corrections to #6
    1. I meant to reply to #5
    2. "The 125 billion that it spends on business " should read as ".The 125 billion that it spends on DEFENCE"

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  • 8. At 9:49pm on 16 Jul 2010, Raj wrote:

    A Pakistani would outshine an Indian on individual basis but as a nation India would outshine Pakistan. This was a survey report couple of years back on TOI and other national newspapers, since the survey was done, things have changed. Now, we see that Pakistan outshine India in both cases. Why our politicians are so impotent, they do not know how to talk and they give poor image of the country. As one of the American politician put it "India is a big country with small people". When are we going to grow up and be able to look in the eyes of the Pakistanis and be equal if not outshine them. On international arena we Indians look backwards and crooks. India wants to talk on terrorism only while Pakistan likes to talk on terrorism also and on the root causes and everything else. What is wrong with that. If you have a headach repeatedly, you will not take a pill every time, you would thinks its serious and would see a doctor hopefully to find what ? a 'root' cause. Why? because you would like to find out if there is a tumor or cancer or anything else that might disrupt your life and the family that is depending on you.
    Whether you agree or do not with Pakistan, but you do not have right to get us all as a nation insulted. You could have ended the meeting in a nice manner never to talk to them again. Tell them that we will talk when we are ready. World in watching.We can not have these meetings go on forever and ever without any result.

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  • 9. At 10:15pm on 16 Jul 2010, AG wrote:

    Jay it's people like you who don't want to see peace in this region. Have you had look at other comments, what do they say they are bending their back for peace.You are a problem.

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  • 10. At 10:21pm on 16 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    What international community expects from India? If a fraction of the killing happened in any western European country or US how they would have reacted? Just read the news report from today's newspaper.
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/ISI-paid-Rs25L-to-LeT-to-buy-boat-for-26/11-attack-Headley/articleshow/6177389.cms

    "In revelations that clearly show ISI role in the 26/11 attacks, Pakistani-American terrorist David Headley has told his interrogators that the Pakistani intelligence agency had paid Rs 25 lakh to LeT to purchase a boat which terrorists used to travel from Karachi.
    Headley also identified through voice sample test two ISI officers who handled the 10 terrorists who carried out 60-hour attack in Mumbai on November 26, 2008".
    American intelligence knows all these and never deny any such intelligence report "leaks" from interrogating the Pak origin, US citizen charged with terrorism.

    Although I fully sympathize with US authority, but we need to remember that US invaded two countries for killing of ONLY 3000 people in 9/11 while many more are still being killed by Pak sponsored terrorism in India (and around the world).
    In fact, many think-tanks in India and around the world (even among diplomatic circles) believe that India’s “patience” and handling of Pakistani interference in Kashmir and many other India’s internal affairs are nothing but coward act by Indian leadership which only promote “soft state” image of India. We need to remember that western powers make films, great novels about Gandhi, but never follow Gandhi’s policy when they face the same problem(s) against its citizens and national security.
    For the time being, it is in the best interest of western powers, mainly USA, to keep India bleed slowly by this Pakistani sponsored terrorism for the so-called and very selective “global fight against terrorism” while they can get THEIR own job done. It will be very interesting for outside world and very challenging for Pakistan to accept the reality once US withdraws from Pakistan-Afghanistan. Probably Pakistan knows that very well and never want this war in Afghanistan (and western sector of Pakistan) to end. Now I will be very curious to see how US and other western powers address that problem.

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  • 11. At 10:50pm on 16 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    Dear AG. It will be height of foolishness to think that peace is free. It is NOT. Peace has its price and sometimes it is high. Only those people get peace who deserve it; who have the courage and preparedness to defend that. You can listen Barak Obama’s speech while he received his Nobel peace prize after signing the bill to send some more troops to Afghanistan. You only can talk peace to a person who understands that language. Throwing meat to mad dogs is not considered kindness but act of stupidity. A person who never learned to protect his/her own dignity, self-respect and rights does NOT deserve to have those. Many Indians consider US President Abraham Lincoln as someone who abolished slavery while majority in US consider him as someone who took up arms too fight to protect THEIR country and saved the country from division. We need to remember that unless we are ready to pay the price for freedom and peace, we probably do NOT deserve that. Indian political leadership has failed the country and its citizens (including those in Kashmir), time and time again.

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  • 12. At 10:53pm on 16 Jul 2010, jet225 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 13. At 10:57pm on 16 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    If peace were so cheap then no civilized country would have had organized army but an army of people with prayer beads in their hands, chanting the mantra of peace. Faster Indian policy makers and some so-called "peace-loving" Indians learn that bitter truth, better for the country and themselves as well.

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  • 14. At 11:00pm on 16 Jul 2010, Disputed Territory wrote:

    The comment below was originally posted by Saqib Kashmiri which stands true from every aspect and gives a true feeling of the Muslims in Kashmir. India we will never surrender to your brutal occupation and you know we NEVER were Indian nor WILL we EVER! INDIAN TROOPS OUT OF KASHMIR NOW!!!!

    The brutal, barbaric, communal and more over the occupying forces of India (as they are generally known in Kashmir) are killing us to cold blood each and every day and you are justifying these heinous acts of barbarism as the acts done in self defence. self defence! against what? stone aah hhh. Let me remind you that we have stone in our hands and not mp- 6 or ak-47. as per your former army major, gen j.j.singh, “there are only 300 odd militants in j& k” (times of India aug 2008), form gen Deepak kapoor has also maintained the same in 2009. now how can you justify the presence of one million Indian occupying forces for mere 300 - 400 miltants? justifying this fact puts a big question mark on your defence. suppose if china attacks India tomorrow how will Indian army tackle with them because what a common man has understood from the facts put forth by the defence ministry is that Indian army has failed miserably in last 20 yrs to neutralize 300 odd militants in j&k .then the question arises that how will they fight 2.5 million Chinese army (forget about their nukes and 4th generation aircrafts m-15 thunderbolts) the real fact is that there are no militants in j&k, but actually India is scared of Kashmir people. They knew that Kashmir people will never surrender their will to them. and as such India does not want mass civil disobedience to occur in order to curb the common view and sentiments of resilient people of j&k, India has deployed one million occupying forces .this is the true fact that India is illegally occupying the state of j&k and the present forces are not to fight militancy but to curb the sentiments and aspirations of common Kashmir’s. If it is not the illegal occupation than where is the instrument of accession signed between the maharaja and Indian state. Oooopppppssss you have lost it. So irresponsible of you.
    ah hhhhhhhha but then for a thing to get ‘lost’ it has first to occur in material. The fact is that the Kashmir was never acceded to India by maharaja and as such how can there be any instrument of accession.
    Even if there had been any accession, what would have been its validity?
    maharaja of j&k was a brutal, barbaric and tyrant person against whom the Kashmir people raised their voice for the ist time in 1931 under the leadership of “sheikh Mohammad Abdullah” grandfather of present c.m. of j&k. on July 13th 1931 he ordered the firing on peaceful demonstrators outside central jail srinagarwhich left 28 people dead on spot and hundreds injured. In the memory of the martyrs of 1931 there is an official holiday on 13th July in j&k. now if the govt itself accepts and endorses the brutalities of dogra rulers ,then how come the accession between the dogra rulers and state of India be valid.

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  • 15. At 11:13pm on 16 Jul 2010, Syed Sajjad Ali wrote:

    I think Pakistani foreign minister has no clue what diplomacy is. He imagines every one as his subjects(he is a sufi master in Multan, Pakistan over some saint’s grave, and there people do things as he wants).

    He does not have right negotiation skills needed to have these talks. And this incompetency is because these talks will eventually fail … in short he is not the right person for the job ... this 'democratic' government is not doing any thing right!!!

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  • 16. At 11:34pm on 16 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    Dear DT, if I accept what you said is right, “now if the govt itself accepts and endorses the brutalities of dogra rulers ,then how come the accession between the dogra rulers and state of India be valid”. You knew that, and I assume Pakistani founder, Md Ali Jinnah also knew it. Then, why he or other Pakistani leaders did not oppose division of India without resolving it first with the British and then Hindu king (your Dogra ruler), Hari Singh? If grandfather of present chief minister of Kashmir, Mr Abdullah, lead Muslim agitation against “brutal atrocities” by the Hindu King against his Muslim subjects, then you should blame the then ruler of India, the British, not current Indian administration. That can never be any reason to oppose accession of Kashmir to India.
    If history were to be re-written, then how will it be to dismiss all Muslim rights due to Muslim invasion by some Middle Eastern thugs during 12th century to Indian sub-continent? In reality, majority of muslims in Indian sub-continent are converted Muslims, from Hindus (mainly by force, financial and administrative coercion by successive Muslim rulers who ruled India for about 800 years before the British). Will that be sufficient reason for Indian state to deny constitutional rights of Muslim citizens of India. I do not think so.
    If the British, the Pakistani state and state of Kashmir accepted Kashmir’s accession to India, then attacking Kashmir and occupying a part of that state (by Pakistan) is nothing but illegal occupation.

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  • 17. At 11:55pm on 16 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    Dear DT, you can check the "The Instrument of Accession":
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_of_Accession_(Jammu_and_Kashmir)

    The Instrument of Accession is a legal document executed by Maharajah Hari Singh, ruler of the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir, on 26 October 1947. With the formal acceptance of the Governor General of India, it settled the question of the accession of the Jammu and Kashmir princely state (including Jammu, Kashmir, Northern Areas, Ladakh, Trans-Karakoram Tract and Aksai Chin) to the Dominion of India.[1][2]


    You also can see the first page copy of that (right of the page). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kashmir-Accession-Document-a.jpg

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  • 18. At 11:59pm on 16 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    Check the history and rulers of Kahmir:
    http://www.kashmir-information.com/chronology.html

    Till 12th century, it was ALL hindu rulers.

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  • 19. At 00:19am on 17 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    Can anyone site same type of reports from any UN or any other reputed human rights organization against Indian security forces which shows that they killed so many people in one operation as mentioned in this BBC report? Just today’s news- “The PAKISTANI ARMY HAS CARRIED OUT 238 EXTRAJUDICIAL KILLINGS of people in the Swat Valley since September last year, says a report from Human Rights Watch”. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-10667545
    It seems that all concern Pakistan has is for Kashmiri people in India more than its own people! Now check any news media in Pakistan and POK, if you can find this news there. No wonder general Pakistani people learn ONLY that part which their masters in Islamabad want them to. Anyone can check how many websites and international news channels are banned/blocked/censored in Pakistan as compared to India. It is much easier for Pakistani state to label the Islamic terrorists as “freedom fighters” to fulfil its policy of state sponsored terrorism a success, at least inside Pakistan. Of course, it has its own consequences and whole Pakistani society is paying heavily for that).

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  • 20. At 02:37am on 17 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    Those people who like to invoke Islam as the main reason for majority people in Kashmir valley (excluding Jammu and Ladakh area of the state) to fight for freedom from “Hindu India” need to know few facts about that part of the world. It is widely believed that Hindu religion itself was evolved in that part of Indian sub-continent. Evidences from Indus valley civilization (around Harrapa -Mohonzodaro area in present Pakistan), which is restricted in present Pakistan and Kashmir (by the side of 5 sister rives of Indus) indicates that place is like Macca -Medina of Hinduism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization#Religion

    In that sense it will be prudent to say that earliest inhabitants of that area were Hindus. That time (around 4500-5000 years ago) Islam was not even born in the world. How Muslims around the world, including those in Pakistan and Kashmir, will react now if the holy places of Islam (where it originated), Macca becomes part of a Christian or Hindu country at some point of time?
    It is the non-violent nature of general Hindus and stupidity of post-independent political leadership of India (mainly dominated by Congress party and then Muslim league) that we people of undivided India, irrespective of religion) allowed India to become divided to satisfy political ambitions of few un-worthy “leaders” (mainly Jawaharlal Nehru and Md Ali Jinnah) and that too on religious lines.

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  • 21. At 02:51am on 17 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    Those people who like to invoke Islam as the main reason for majority people in Kashmir valley (excluding Jammu and Ladakh area of the state) to fight for freedom from “Hindu India” need to know few facts about that part of the world. It is widely believed that Hindu religion itself was evolved in that part of Indian sub-continent. Evidences from Indus valley civilization (around Harrapa -Mohonzodaro area in present Pakistan-Kashmir; by the side of 5 sister rives of Indus) indicates that place is like Mecca -Medina of Hinduism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization#Religion

    In that sense it will be prudent to say that earliest inhabitants of that area were Hindus. That time (around 4500-5000 years ago) Islam was not even born in the world (at least that’s what Historians agree). How Muslims around the world, including those in Pakistan and Kashmir, will react now if the holy places of Islam (where it originated), Mecca becomes part of a Christian or Hindu country at some point of time?
    It is the non-violent nature of general Hindus and stupidity of PRE-independent political leadership of India (mainly dominated by Congress party and then Muslim league) that we people of undivided India, irrespective of religion) allowed India to become divided to satisfy political ambitions of few un-worthy “leaders” (mainly Jawaharlal Nehru and Md Ali Jinnah) and that too on religious lines.

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  • 22. At 04:26am on 17 Jul 2010, MAS wrote:

    This is in reply to Jay.

    Jay if you look at history of kashmir, hinduism was not the only religion. There were different religions at different times, and what you call hinduism in India is not true for hinduism practised in kashmir. But the point is kashmiris converted to islam and they converted willingly. My forefathers were kashmiri pandits, but i am a muslim now, this is true for most of muslims in kashmir, rajori, poonch and jammu. Also to make it clear jammu region of kashmir consist of rajori and poonch which are muslim dominated. Ladakh has a large muslim population and a budhist majority and they are living in peace. There is a large sikh community in kashmir and there are good relations between them. Kashmiri Sikhs did not leave kashmir when fight for independence started in 1989. Only kashmiri pandits left and that too due to influlence of hindu nationalist parties. Governor of kashmir who facalitated their exit joined BJP( hindu nationalist party).
    Kashmir is not india and never will be. Historicaly it was independent, mostly ruled by indeginious rulers or rulers who came from outside and made kashmir their home. It was never ruled from outside as it is ruled now.
    India is not a innocent nation, its relations with its neighbours tells the story. Even bangladesh who was created by india does not foster a good relation with india. China, srilanka and even nepal have issues with indai and india has never tried in good faith to solve these issue. The policy of Time is the best healer practiced by india has frustated everybody. India stands out as a Sore thumb in SE asia.
    There are lot of comments about Indian progress and development, a recent survey which everbody on this forum will know has shown that India has more poor than whole africa speaks for development.

    If there are extrajudicial killings in pakistan that does not justify killing of innocent kashmiris by india. Today was 20th day of near continous curfew in Kashmir. Kashmiris are burning with anger, they hopped that something will come out of these talks but it is same story again. I blame both pakistan and India for this. None of them are sincere about peace, it serves their political needs.

    Just a request from people of kashmir to both India and Pakistan, please leave us alone, let kashmir be independent. You two lot can keep fighting each other we won't bother but please bring peace to kashmir. We have given enough blood, don't bleed us more, show some mercy.

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  • 23. At 05:47am on 17 Jul 2010, wesley_matthew wrote:

    I hope the Republic of India needs to understand from it earlier pitfalls on peaceful dialogs with Islamic Republic of Pakistan.
    'I AM FOR PEACE BUT WHEN I SPEAK THEY ARE FOR WAR' .

    I am happy with the diplomatic way the Indians deal.

    Enough is enough, its enough with your fanaticism is what had to be said to Mr Qureshi, then the mandate would have been clearer.
    With an Idea to take over the world; now with a hidden agenda. The sadists are supported by fascists.

    Is not Iran supported by the bent Russians? and
    Does not Pakistan have a Chinese backing?

    Its not the people of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan which is having the problem but there fearsome ideology.

    Ask them whether they want to rule India and call it Islamic Republic of India; and they would not say thats what we like to, but thats what we are supposed to do.

    Ask them this and then they would say that the Democratic India is on track; yea thats what we wanted of New Delhi.

    Wake up Indians whoever you are, no religion, no ideology is above the demands of love and peace. No fanatics, no doctrines should rise above the bonds of love with which humans were knit saying we are doing this for our God; for God's not a murderer or a criminal.

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  • 24. At 09:35am on 17 Jul 2010, arbj wrote:

    @raj, Post #8
    "A Pakistani would outshine an Indian on individual basis"
    Yes they do, they make good terrorists....

    "India is a big country with small people"...so that's why the economy is growing ??

    "When are we going to grow up and be able to look in the eyes of the Pakistanis and be equal if not outshine them"

    outshine them in what field ??... terrorism.

    Pakistanis must accept the fact that their country is a breeding ground for terroists only then can other problems be sorted out..

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  • 25. At 10:28am on 17 Jul 2010, Luketerr wrote:

    Bring on BJP...yes I said it...They know they messed up during Kargil and the release of a top militant in exchange for the Indian Airlines plane & its passengers ( this is what u get when u negotiate with terrorists) ...They will definitely want to get that straight...but atleast they will not pussy-foot like the congress who don't even hv the guts to talk with Maoist's who r Indians in the first place...BJP will be atleast decisive ....I'm fed up with India's focus only being on Pakistan when in essence we should be looking at China as our competitor ...

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  • 26. At 1:21pm on 17 Jul 2010, BluesBerry wrote:

    Contrary to what the western media is reporting, I thought the talks between Pakistan and India ended with success; whenever two major powers agree to keep talking, to settle their disputes throigh talking, that is success.
    Pakistan and India are not calling for conditional peace. They are calling only for peace.
    Pakistan and India seem to have learned – likely from all the wars and suffering – that there is no dispute that is not better settled through negotiation. War deepens disputes; it takes talking to settle them.
    I believe that in due course, even Kashmir will be settled by talking - now and then likely interrupted (maybe even thrown off track) by militants who have something to gain through terrorism.
    Yes, there are hawks, cynics who want to believe and want the world to believe that talking will fail. It will not be the Coalition of the Willing that achieves peace in Afghanistan because war cannot bring peace - except perhaps temporaily.
    India and Pakistan will do the world a great service by demonstrating what the open hand of friendship truly means.
    Both of these countries have witnessed too much bloodshed; they have suffered, and they want peace for the ¼ of humanity that is involved.
    In addition to talking, letters are being exchanged, decisions are being made. E.g. Foreign policy must be based on economics and not on ideology.
    Both countries are also talking China, as in deepening relationships with China. Is it little wonder that the western media wants to believe that things are not working out, that one country or another walked off in a huss. If either Pakistan or India walked off, it was not in a huss, but toward the next meeting and further dialogue.

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  • 27. At 2:38pm on 17 Jul 2010, Bludde wrote:

    From personal experience I am convinced that both PM Gilani (no relation to Daoud, a strictly ISI affair) and President Zardari would like to have "peace" with India, if not a true "peace" then a "standstill" agreement, so they can turn towards the most pressing issue which is "Economic Development". Both recognize the gap between the two as cavernous and ever-widening. Solutioning Electricity Brownouts on the very top of the agenda. I was an invited guest at the Presidential Palace last year on the issue of power generation. The civilian administration wants to develop the huge Thar coal deposits, knowing fully well that India, as a national policy, is racing towards coal fired power generation costing as little as 3.5c per kwh. Cheap electricity for economic development. Unfortunately the reins of power are held by the Generals in the Army and the ISI and, long ago, back to the time of Marshall Ayub, the general staff took a sworn oath (re-inforced by Musharraf, the architect of the Kargil disaster) to "fly the Flag atop City Hall in Srinagar". To this end is Pakistan foreign policy and Foreign Minister Q is merely following the party-line set down by General Kayani.. If you all notice, PM Gilani subsequently attempted to "soften" the acrid tone set by Qureshi... All of this is no secret to the US Administration. The Daoud Gilani revelations (he sang willingly as a canary as long as the US agreed not to repatriate him to either Pakistan or India) shocked Obama, convincing him for the first time of the 50 year "Obsession" that defies resolution and inhibits peace in the region.

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  • 28. At 3:07pm on 17 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    Dear Kashmas, you are not right when you say, “you look at history of kashmir, Hinduism was not the only religion”. Hinduism was THE ONLY religion in that area (around Indus valley civilization. You can check wiki or Encyclopaedia: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/266312/Hinduism/8981/Religion-in-the-Indus-valley-civilization).
    Your conception of Hinduism is naïve when you say, “what you call Hinduism in India is not true for hinduism practised in Kashmir”. There are many different interpretations and ways to practice Hinduism within India and around the world (for more detail one can check Sautik’s other blogs like “honor killing” etc). Buddhist and many other religions we see there ALL were introduced later.
    I like to comment when you say, “But the point is kashmiris converted to islam and they converted willingly. My forefathers were kashmiri pandits, but i am a muslim now, this is true for most of muslims in Kashmir..”. I am not sure how many were converted “willingly” and how many were forced or coerced. Coercion was more predominant than forced conversion. Once anyone get converted (particularly if that is coerced by money or social pressure or administrative power), it is general tendency for people to glorify the newly acquired religion/position. Indian history of distant past and recent past show the impact of conversion on a specific place. Kashmir has its own share of that problem.

    Whole India was divided by individual kingdoms before Mughal and more precisely before British arrived. Kashmir is no exception. IN reality Kashmir was under many Hindu kings, including great emperor Ashoka. That does not qualify that specific place to describe it as “independent” since we gather historical evidence from that place.

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  • 29. At 3:29pm on 17 Jul 2010, Suresh wrote:

    People who think India need more restrain should read this
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-10667545
    now if pakistan keep on sending terrorist in J & K & other part and expect that we should discuss things other then terrorism or Mumbai attack then should they discuss Bollywood.
    Whole world does not need any proof to prove that all terror link is from Pakistan so if they need to change world openion then change them self.Also if India is involved in such act then prove it.When world know dawood is in Pakistan & Pakistn`s legent Meadad marries his daughter to dawoods son still pakistan deny this how long ostrich like attitude will help them.
    India never teach its children that Muslim or Pakistan is enemy where as Pakistan

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  • 30. At 5:43pm on 17 Jul 2010, NSC wrote:

    Hi I dont't see any reason for India to have peace talks with Pakistan, are both the countries at war?. Do we mean that by having peace talks with Pakistan that Pakistan is responsible for all the trouble in the region?. I think it would be better for India to not to waste time in these talks and instead work on creating a more secure border, investing more on internal security.

    Regarding so many hated comments against India. What I can say is that Soutik Biswas was able to write article and many other stories which puts India in Negative light, I have not seen any Pakistani journalist writing on what is happening in Pakistan where the Pakistani Army is using Helicopter gunships and heavy armory against its own population - all in the name of defeating Taliban. Does that mean Taliban is based out of Pakistan?

    Whatever said and done against Indian Army or Security agencies in J & K, still I praise them for showing so much of restraint. As for the people here talking and commenting on instrument of accession to India. I guess the whole of Ladakh and Jammu would have suffered if that was not the case.

    My friends forget about the difference of economic development between India and Pakistan- The world knows the difference and no one needs to comment and prove it. India buys its military requirement and Pakistan begs to US for Military support.

    I wish all the people including Mr Soutik Biswas spends time in researching and write stories of how India is progressing despite so many border hurdles and hostile territory from all the three sides.

    India should stop all economic and cultural sharing with its East and West border partner nation and then see who is at loss.

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  • 31. At 5:54pm on 17 Jul 2010, Luketerr wrote:

    NSC .....thats because we r a democracy n Pakistan is not...Their reporters would just disappear

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  • 32. At 9:10pm on 17 Jul 2010, hiren wrote:

    In my opinion this is mere waste of time by talking about something which can't be resolved in past, present or future.
    Indian Politician knows that but i don't understand of wasting time rather In India they should be more focused on core issues within country.
    Pakistan on other hand will collapse one day as they have so many problems inside their country, no stable government & terrorism.
    Should India continue talking nicely????? No. Rather be like Isarel.
    India or Indian politicians should learn something from Isarel.
    Its after all voting game.........

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  • 33. At 02:09am on 18 Jul 2010, KashmiriKuku wrote:

    The very topic of India Pakistan talks have collapsed or not is irrelevant. We must go back to the history to find out why Pakistan was created and who are its inhabitants. Pakistan was created by the fanatic Muslims who hated everyone who does not follow Islam religon. They did not want to live in friendship with their countrymen. Even when Pakistan was given in reality to Mr. Jinnah on a platter on 15th August itself the Muslim League followers were chanting on the streets "Hans ke liya hai Pakistan Lar ke lenge Hindustan" (translated as "we got Pakistan laughing all the way but will take Hinustan by fighting). This slogan shouting continued for a couple of days only till the Hindus re-acted, naturally violently, all those muslim leaguers started behaving like mouses and approaching their Hindu neighbors to save them from the hands of hooligans and show brotherhood!
    The very essence of Pakistan is that they do not want to compromise on any thing and come to the discussion tables but to masquerade that they are sincere but are actually most insincere.

    On the other hand the India's ruling Congress Party is consisting of impotent people who are all out to please Pakistani hawks. Consider what our Prime Minister Manmohan Singh saying openly in a public speech that 'THE MUSLIMS HAVE FIRST RIGHT OVER THE RESOURCES OF INDIA" to which remark, of course, all sensible Indians objected. He had no business to assign FIRST RIGHT on the resources of the country to a particular religious community instead of all Indians have equal rights on the country's resources.

    Cutting the long story short, while Pakistani Ministers have a mental block of never agreeing to Indian suggestion and even when the Indian Ministers are bending their back to please the fanatic sections of our society the talks were bound to fail anyway.

    So far as Kashmir is concerned the Muslims of the Valley who now number 98% of population, after driving out the Kashmiri Pandits, and do not really represent even the whole of Kashmir state as vast parts of it consist of Jammu and Ladakh and have several times more area than the valley and some other parts of Kashmir state inhabited by Muslims. The fanatic Muslims and the spies of Pakistan do not represent all Kashmiri Muslims. An average Kashmiri, Muslim or non-muslim is interested in jobs, food and housing. India is trying to bring prosperity to this area and have already started a Railway Line (for the first time in the history of valley) that will help distributing prosperity to the residents. What Kashmir needs is to allow India, Indian businessmen and Industrialists to start work generating activities in the State and to bring prosperity. Getting closer to Pakistan will only bring misery and poverty. That country is not just a failed state it has the maximum trouble among various denominations of ISLAM like Sunnis killing Shias and Ahmedis etc.

    The Kashmiri brothern please take care and ward yourself to save you from the misery that is Pakistan.

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  • 34. At 04:39am on 18 Jul 2010, Ahsan Sarkar wrote:

    Friendship between India and Pakistan will always remain a mirage so long as the bone of contention between the two countries, the Kashmir problem , remains unsolved.It would always seem to Pakistan that India is not mentally prepared to engage in a dialogue. Any Indo-Pak talks will end with the diplomatic rigmarole : " India and Pakistan decide to rmain engaged". Frakly speaking, it is never interested in any fruitful dialogue. India has forcibly occupied the major portion of Kashmir, and maintaining statusquo is always an advantage for India.Pakistan and India have fought two major wars over Kashmir. The possibility of another war between the two rivals may not be ruled out altogether even though the possession of nuclear arms by both will be a deterent.The recent attacks on Mumbai have been condemned by both the countries, but neither seems to be interested in evolving a common strategy to pre-empt such terrorism. If not taken seriously,terrorism may endanger peace and security of both the countries. It is in their own national interests that Pakistan and India should bury their hatchets and engage in constructive efforts to solve their bilateral problems including Kashmir.

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  • 35. At 05:33am on 18 Jul 2010, cs wrote:

    Let me at the onset state clearly, that I am from India. However, let me also state in the same breadth that I am a minority, whose ancestors have for 14 centuries, lived and thrived in India, peacefully and with utmost dignity in a land that is unbelievably plural, diverse and tolerant.
    The reason the talks will fail is because talks are built on a foundation of trust. How can you trust someone who cannot control extremist elements in their own back yard.How can you trust the word of politicians in a country, which is, as we speak, imploding; because extermist elements meant to create damage externally are now intent on doing the same internally. Where is the room for dialog when Pakistan does not even acknowledge that the state is Jammu and Kashmir and not just Kashmir.
    Kashmir is merely a double jeopardy bone that Pakistan can wave to claim India's stubbornness. Mr. Biswas's reporting appears as bland gripe water-it claims to serve a purpose but is perhaps just a placebo.

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  • 36. At 08:39am on 18 Jul 2010, girl_from_kashmir wrote:

    @ # 14

    Hello guys and girls, I am a girl from kashmir and currently living in Delhi. I want to know from the people of Kashmir who want's to separate Kashmir from India.

    What will you do after that ???.

    Do you have good institutions like IITs, IIMs, ??? even country like pakistan don't have that.

    How will you people develop your economy ?? Who will save you from the external threats ??

    What are the plans afterwards ?.

    I am happy that I am a part of India because of which I am studying in a very reputed college and have freedoms to do everything. People in Kashmir should accept that India is our country and take advantages of it's facility like IITs, IIMs and make our nation terror free.

    It took India 63 year to come into this position of global power after freedom so I urge the people like you ( # 14 ) who are from the kashmir to be a part of our nation and through the sentiment away.

    I urge from all my Kashmiri brothers and Sisters to accept India as our country. Like I said if I were in Pakistan or afganistan they would not have allowed me to study and I could not have done anything.

    Hopes my brothers and sisters from Kashmir will understands it

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  • 37. At 08:58am on 18 Jul 2010, ohrdpl wrote:

    sir,

    it seems pak is never serious about peace talks.

    whereas they have only one agenda,
    since historical times.
    i.e. re-conquering india by islam as in the medieval times.
    plus they have also remained ever upset after the bangla-desh
    liberation, seeking to avenge the same.

    hence,in the whole scenario, they have nothing to lose
    but everything to gain, whether its india or the usa.

    it is very clear from the body language of the pak fm
    ever since he took over, that he harbours utter contempt
    for india.

    pak is also in making indians run around in circles.

    on the other hand,
    our politicians are never prepared well enough.
    it seems that they excell only in corruption and other crimes.
    their calibre is always below par.
    i always find them deficient in leader, knowledge and integrity.

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  • 38. At 10:07am on 18 Jul 2010, Avijit Maitra wrote:

    #36 girl from kashmir

    SPOT ON

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  • 39. At 1:28pm on 18 Jul 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    #36 no offence meant but the truth speaks for itself. Your grammar is too poor to be studying in anything reputable or near to it. Ones intellect shows in ones words and deeds.
    If you are not a fake you sound to have taken a stand opposite that of your 99% fellow kashmiri's. I am from downtown , have worked in 8 countries , in Organizations 100 times the size of Infosys, if I could do this with REC education , so can you !!!
    When we are free and our tourism picks to it’s full potential, add apples , saffron, handicrafts , almonds industries to it, we will build better than IIT and IIM .
    In a maths competition for kids kashmiris won 3 out of top 10. Being 1 % of Indias population this is a remarkable achievement given the amount of time these kids spent in curfew.


    -----------------

    If you cant see the truth, nobody can tell you the truth -- Jesus Christ to his aggressor!!

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  • 40. At 2:07pm on 18 Jul 2010, Rubin Naidu wrote:

    The two countries have no common ground on their disagreements. India wants Pakistan to rein in the terrorists. Pakistan sees these terrorists as one of its chief weapons.
    Pakistan wants Kashmir in its fold or atleast as a puppet independent state. India would be crazy to let either of those scenarios play out considering there are numerous minority groups that want to break it up.
    I feel that the status quo is the best we can hope for atleast for generation or two.

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  • 41. At 2:32pm on 18 Jul 2010, Lip06fw wrote:

    Kashmir is the main contention between the two countries. It is India's unwillingness to engage in a dialogue which can resolve the K- Issue. Pakistan on the other hand is struggling to cope with its internal problems and is sincere to see K-issue resolving. India's Congress is not capable of taking any decision on its own, Mr Krishna proved that during the meeting with his counterpart in Islamabad. Mrs Sonia Gandhi has always been seen as a Foreigner. BJP, India's opposition party can resolve differences with Pakistan, at least they tried and eventually failed.Resolve Kashmir Issue......

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  • 42. At 3:11pm on 18 Jul 2010, nitk_guy wrote:

    @ Bakhtawar : See how limited your vision has become : Instead of thinking about the main theme , you are paying attention to girl's grammar who writes in #14 .

    Can you not see that the way forward in life is through science and advancement ? The people in IIT's and IIM's are waiting for Kashmiri's to claim their seats , to play cricket with them , to watch movies and have good food together besides the serious stuff .

    Brother , in the longest term , India is the way of the future . The city of Bangalore alone has exports Kashmir can never match based on any amount of tourism and almonds or whatever medieval production is there .

    Can no Muslim ever follow Zakir Naik like leaders ?

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  • 43. At 3:27pm on 18 Jul 2010, nitk_guy wrote:

    Girls like #14 are clearly smarter than the medieval thought of other Kashmiri's .

    Bakhtawar , Do you want to know what open minded is ? I am a Hindu Brahmin , but there is this beautiful saying of Jesus which i am glad to remember : "...do not persecute your enemies , pray for them" . The Muslims are positioning India as their enemy . For what ?

    When my friend went to Israel on work , he met some local people as Hare Krishnas . Did Israel punish them for liking Krishna ? No .

    People's belief in religion ALONE leads them to fundamentalism , which we Indians cannot accept or honor .

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  • 44. At 3:29pm on 18 Jul 2010, nitk_guy wrote:

    @ #40 : Yes , and why does everybody forgets that India successfully saved Punjab from Khalistani fanatics ?

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  • 45. At 3:44pm on 18 Jul 2010, Lip06fw wrote:

    @42...The Kashmir problem is not about the economic growth or lack of Technology. It is about the basic rights of Kashmiris which was promised to them by the Indian Government. The Kashmiri girl seems not to have understood the concept of freedom, for her going out to M-Block or Cannaught Place may be the freedom. I'd ask her to study journalism and go to Shopian and do some research; She might find freedom there.
    Kashmir is a dispute and must be resolved, India has always with her hypocrite approach tried to dilute the situation by oppression (presence of Army :700K)and tried to hold it with the puppet governments.
    India is not willing to talk, they know their position in Kashmir. Time is not too far when Kashmir will be an independent state.
    And for IITs and IIMs, Indian still doesn't exists in the top 100 Universities of the World. India is a big country and soon the World will witness the shattering of this big state like USSR.

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  • 46. At 6:22pm on 18 Jul 2010, MAS wrote:

    What Kashmiri want?
    We don't want indian IIM, IITs or your money. Can't you see what we are fighting for. We want freedom from INDIA. No matter how much money you pour into kashmir you wont take this resolve away. Most of people on this forum won't understand this because they have the freedom and can't comprehend what its absence means.
    We don't have power to chose what we teach our children, that is chosen by INDIA.
    We don't have freedom of expression, freedom of congregation, freedom of protest.
    We are policed by force which is foreign, can't speak our language, dose not share same values.
    We don't have control of our lands, rivers, valleys, mountains, not even of our homes.
    We are not integral part of any country, we have our own identity and culture which we want to protect.
    We want to celebrate our heros like Maqbool Bhat not Shivaji, we don't know Shivaji.
    We want our media, that is not gaged by INDIA.
    I can go on for hours and hours like this.

    We want freedom. NOT IIMs and IITs.
    Freedom, Freedom, Freedom, Freedom, Freedom O Freedom when will you be ours.

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  • 47. At 6:37pm on 18 Jul 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    @nitk, you really amuse me: beat this

    Before the tianmen square incident the software dev centres were in Beijing and Shanghai. This was true for Microsoft, Oracle , HP , IBM and others did not matter. These people closed shop in China and moved to India. (left a severe heartburn in China).India took over.

    Today Grenoble, Bratislava, Manila, Cairo , Schenzen , Shanghai and many more drool over the business that goes to India and have built neccasary infra to compete.

    If you look at kashmir today, its a Tiananmen square in the waiting. It's almost obvious. Are you able to join the dots. You will end up with 8 million more beggars ( help me count how many you alreay have) more

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  • 48. At 6:39pm on 18 Jul 2010, bakhtawar wrote:

    correction: Tiananmen ;)

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  • 49. At 6:46pm on 18 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    Dear Lip06FW, So will you wait till the time when "World will witness the shattering of this big state (India) like USSR"? Then I wish you good luck!
    You are right when you say, "Kashmir is a dispute and must be resolved". Kashmir is a disputed land ONLY FOR some fanatic Muslims in Kashmir and Pakistan. Anyone can read the history of Kashmir. The problem started with its close association with Muslims League (headed by the gandfather of present CM of JK) which is practically responsible for ethenic cleansing of Hindus from that state. The only problem India has/had is/was its very soft appproach towards those islamic thugs and approval of special status to that state. Muslim league latter became "national conference" and abondoned its fundammentalist role (at least in public). But in the mean time they encouraged some power hungry politicians like Md Ali Jinnah (who NEVER followed Islam in his personal life yet exploited that religion ONLY to satisfy his personal political ambition) and some Islamic fanatics. Later Pakistan started using state-sponsorred terrorism as state foreign policy. That made the whole difference in situation in Kashmir.
    India should have crushed those islamic terrosists long ago, ruthlessly, to save many peace loving Kashmiris and other Indians, in that state. Successive Conggress governments in centre allowed the problem in Kashmir to grow, mainly for muslim vote bank. In reality, it is the congress party of India that did not allow or encourage many Muslims (not all though) to get assimilated into Indian nationa main stream and accept the ethos of secular democracy; even though those Muslims did not migrrate to “muslim home land” of Pakistan and preferred to stay in secular India as per their own free will.
    I think the part of Kargil (of Indian Kashmir) would remain with Pakistan if Congress were in power that time. Indian should have used the same appproach in 1948 when Pakistan invaded India and the kashmirr problme was born. That war should have been a dicisive one till India get back its legitimate part, which is not pakistan occupied Kashmir.
    Both these countries are engaging in so-called dialogue only to satisfy few western powers like USA. They have almost no common ground, so far Islamic terrorism and kashmir is concerned (the main theme for India-Pakistan dialogue). Probbably, next time India and Pakistan can talk about bollywood, cricket, weather etc duriong such high level bilateral talk. Then India should start doing what it SHOULD do in Kashmir and Pakistan will continue what it does best, so far Kashmir is concerned. Now it is up to sane Kashmiris to decide which side is best suited for them.

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  • 50. At 6:55pm on 18 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    Corrrection (for post#49).
    Indian should have used the same appproach in 1948 when Pakistan invaded India and the kashmirr problme was born. That war should have been a dicisive one till India got back its legitimate part, which is NOW pakistan-occupied-Kashmir (POK).

    Many policy makers (mainly from Congrress party and some others who use religion more in doing politics in a secular democracy) need to remember that COWARDS DO NOT DESERVE PEACE AND PEACE HAS ITS OWN PRICE. Either we need to be prepared to pay that, else there will be consiquences. US did not negotiate much with Talibans and Al-Quida after 9-11. India faced so many 9-11s and yet we engage in meaningless dialogues with the people responsible for those atttacks on Indian state.
    Why we maintain such a huge army and spend so much on our army? I hope those are not for republic day parades in national and state capitals and/or to get bribes during purchase of those costly military hardware when we can not save our country and its citizens (both civilians and armed personnels).

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  • 51. At 7:29pm on 18 Jul 2010, MAS wrote:

    I hate people taking about kashmir and talk through prism of India and Pakistan relation. What happened during Indian struggle of freedom, during partition and there after does not hold any relevance what so ever to present situation. People who are fighting for independence in kashmir are young generation who have grown under Indian occupation and want freedom from it. They are not seeking union with pakistan. They want India out.
    Now talk about what Jinha did or Nehru did 60 years ago does not have any significance. Let us forget it and solve problem at hand.

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  • 52. At 7:54pm on 18 Jul 2010, Anami Gour wrote:

    There is a very little hope in current political environment. Its true that Pakistani politicians have a problem in leaving Kashmir issue aside, but this is also true that Indian side can't leave it out completely. Diplomacy works, I hope Mr Quereshi will be better tuned for diplomatic language next time.

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  • 53. At 7:56pm on 18 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    Kashmas, let me tell you a story. A boy was very angry on his dad as the dad did not give the kid something the boy wanted. According to his dad, the boy did not need what he asked and it was well beyond dad’s ability. But that time the boy did not acccept his dad’s argument. He wanted FREEDOM. He wanted to go away from home and set up his own home. He was about 12-13 yrs old, had almost no education and ability to have his own life. Moreover, he did not not understand that freedom demands sense and ability of responsibility.
    Now you can replace the boy with Kashmir and/or Pakistan. To solve a present problem, you need to understand the history, evolution of the problem to its present scale and most importantly, a sound plan for future. Let those seperatist leaders in Kashmir and their Pakistani sponsorers figure these out first. It’s always very easy to exploit illeteracy and unemployment to infuse religious fundamentalism to satisfy personal political abmition and hunger for state power, than to show one’s own supporters a viable way towards a prosperous and peaceful lives. We all now know the present condition and probable future of the peace of “pak” (secred) land such “leaders” got by invoking religion (Islam in this instance) in 1947! How many sane, educated Kashmiri peole will like to have similar fate for their beloved land?

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  • 54. At 8:18pm on 18 Jul 2010, MAS wrote:

    Jay, Kashmiris are not illiterate or ignorant as you think. Most of the people on streets are educated, not just to school level but also to University level. Stop patronising Kashmiris. Britishers had same argument about india before independence that Indians are uncultured, ignorant and uneducated and won't handle freedom well. You are using same argument against Kashmiris.
    We understand the problem of kashmir better than anyone else as we live in kashmir not through internet search of Wikipedia. 20 days of continuos curfew makes people think what is better for them and india does not seem to be good idea. Now you can go on and on about evolution of problem, spend millions of your hours on internet, miles away from kashmir and pontificate about what should be done and not done. But reality is that indian army is terrorising Kashmiris now and we want them out.

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  • 55. At 8:29pm on 18 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    If you reallly know all these, then you also should know why you are having so much trouble! You also should know what those people would think who were driven out of their homes in Kashmir, and live under constant carfew for some Islamic terrorists. I do acknowledge the inability and weakness of Indian state that could not save its own citizens and those Hindus and many peace-loving Muslim Kashmiris that day.
    In reality, some Islamic terrorists backed by Pakistan state and some foreign terrorosts are the MAIN reasons for the problem avarage Kashmiri people are facing today.

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  • 56. At 8:35pm on 18 Jul 2010, cs wrote:

    In response to the heartfelt yet uninformed lines from #46

    Herewith is my response.
    Kashmir at one point was within the larger extents of the Ashokan and Mauryan Empires. They were HINDU and the then monarchs of the area peacefully co-existed
    India was a unification of princely states and tribes by the British. This union despite its upheavals holds today.
    India has more Muslims perhaps than Pakistan who in general have co-existed in peace.
    You are brandishing lines for the sake of mileage. If you wish to be so Kashmiri and not INDIAN then please feel free to join your brethren on the other side of the border in POK.
    OH WAIT! By your own census Kashmiri's prefer to be within India than within POK.
    And if you think that India is defined by Shivaji your history is deficient. What about Maulana Azad, what about Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan also called Frontier Gandhi.

    Learn to live and co-exist, take a leaf out of the chapters of some of your poets. Learn tolerance not divisiveness. Read what Octavio Paz has said about India. Then you will discover what INDIA is about.

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  • 57. At 8:40pm on 18 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    I have seen few such extremist “revolution” in India. My own state of Bengal witnessed equally violent rebelion in 1970s (Naxal movement). Then I saw the same in Punjab and Assam. Such violent movements never solve any problem but create more problems; more political, economic hardship in the long run. Even local culture and lannguage get affected negetively. Many peole like me have witnessed that before. You do not have to make the same mistake that others have already made and learnt from that.
    Let Kashmiri people particippate in building a better, stroonger, less corrupt, more peaceful India and Kashmir; than to wasting their energy in some meaningless, futile “revolution” imposed on them by some religious fundamentalists and Pakistan.

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  • 58. At 8:41pm on 18 Jul 2010, nitk_guy wrote:

    @ 45 :-

    1 . Your hatred for India is not enough a credential to question that girl's intelligence . And IMO , she has the complete freedom to feel good about being in Delhi and enjoy herself while shopping .

    2 . So what if the IIT's and IIM's are not in top 100 today ? Focus on what they have , and not what they lack , El Pessimista :) And sir , do you even know the fees in other countries for the SAME quality of education ?

    See , emotions are guiding you , emotions which primarily are religion based , which has filled you blind hate . You have to open your eyes dude . Jay has summarized this well above , do you want another Pakistan of your truly wonderful homeland ?

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  • 59. At 8:54pm on 18 Jul 2010, anirudh wrote:

    It seems the people in the kashmir valley want independence. It makes sense for us to carve out the valley as a separate province, while protecting hindu majority jammu and buddhist majority ladakh.

    Even if one understands the emotions of kashmir valley muslims wanting independence from both india and pakistan, how do they plan on supporting themselves as an independent nation? They have zero coal,oil,gas,or iron ore. They have no access to the sea. They'd be sandwiched between india,china,and pakistan. At best, they could "independently" choose whose pawns they want to be.

    The whole idea of kashmir valley's independence makes no economic sense at all.

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  • 60. At 8:59pm on 18 Jul 2010, Thakur wrote:

    I had no intention of commenting on this story, but the grossly erroneous logic of Mr. Jay has made me come to it.
    First of all, Mr. Biswass must also put in the explanation given later by the Pakistan's Foreign Minister, Mr. Shah Mehmood Qureshi. He said that he had been mis-interpreted. What he was actually complaining about was that whenever the talks regarding any matter reached to some point of conclusion, some Indian official from the delegation would go outside the room, talk to Delhi and then come back to the room saying that we don't agree to it. This halted the progress in all matters, even the joint press conference was postponed thrice to ultimately take place at 9:30 pm, instead of 1:00pm (PST). This clearly shows that India came unprepared. and that India had no confidence in her foreign minister, as he was given NO MANDATE to decide regarding any matter.
    Now, when I say decide, I definitely do not mean that the longstanding issues like Kashmir and Sir-Creek etc would be resolved at once, but atleast, there should be a good, pleasant, sell-able joint statement. Kissinger himself says in his book "Crisis" that when he landed in Russia for talks, Brezhnev, in the start of the talks told him that I have just talked to Nixon and he has given you (kissinger) full mandate to decide the matters on behalf of the President of the US. This is how u move forward.
    If there were such problems, India must have brought them up in the Foreign Secreteries meeting, which held priorly to set the agenda of talks.
    So, contrary to the comments of a few ppl here who don't keep the tabs arranged, it was Indian Foreign Secretary, who should be blamed for this mess in the talks: if u don't agree to it, negate it on the table, first-agree-then-disagree makes the process frustrating.
    The two most pressing problems currently faced by Pakistan regarding India are of Kashmir and of Water. If these are not resolved timely, they will explode, and, nobody knows what the future will be like.
    Now coming to Mr. Jay's Accession Letter and all that stuff: I m not conveying this to Mr. Jay, for he appears to be too stubborn to listen. Unfortunately, India has created a whole generation of youngsters who can never see the truth and are confined to their bubbles. The fact i wanted to write here have already appeared in this blog, and are all reported by BBC itself. Furthermore, there are also some Kashmiri brethren who forget the Sacher Committee report (that Indian Muslims are living a life worse than Dalits).
    For those who have some appetite for logic, pls follow:
    The problem regarding the accession is not limited to Kashmir. Actually, there are 3 states that form the problem, but Kashmir is the most hot-spot of all. The other two are 1)Hyderabad (Dakkan) and 2)Junagarh & Munawadar.
    These were also the princely states like Kashmir, and had similar (rather opposing) situation to Kashmir: The rulers were Muslims, and the majority of the population was of Hindus. The Muslims rulers of these states acceded to Pakistan. But India, using its military might, invaded these two smaller states saying that the People of these states don't want to accede to Pakistan and their rulers have not kept the views of their people in mind when acceding to Pakistan. India invaded these two states, and the Royal family of these states had to flee to Pakistan.
    This logic is exactly contrary to the logic used by India in case of Kashmir, where India says: heck with the people, the king acceded to india nd we have the accession letter.
    This should show u clearly enough the level of justice and fair-play of the Indian, from the start.
    Also, it was said that why Muslim leaders didn't sort out this problem before hand. Bro there WAS NO PROBLEM until Mr Nehru charmed Mountbatten's wife (I m not attacking any body's character, this is a historical fact: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwina_Mountbatten,_Countess_Mountbatten_of_Burma) to the effect that the Boundary Commission gave India the 4 divisions of Gurdaspur, Ferozepur etc. which was basically done to give India 1) a land route to Kashmir and 2)the headworks at ferozepur through which canals irrigated Pakistan's Punjab.
    Unfortunately, these are the two biggest problems confronting Pakistan: Kashmir and Water
    Also, there was talk about India's "Restraint" and "Patience", in that India could have forcefully dealt with Pakistan. My bro, if this had been the case, India would have never come to the table. Situation is much changed in 63 years: now we make our own guns, our own bullets, our own tanks and By the grace of Almighty, our own jet fighters. Give it a try if u wish, but only consider one thing: If Pakistan's only one agency (i.e. ISI) can be such a nightmare to India, which has obsessed the whole Indian aristocracy, what would the whole army do.
    However, it must be noted that coming to tables is not a sign of cowardice, nor India's coming to talks is considered as her weakness.
    As u ppl don't read history at all, and let pass the false comments, here is a passage for u from Experiences by British Historian, Arnold J. Toynbee:

    Mutual obstinacy stultifies negotiation. The purpose of negotiation is to reach agreement between parties WHO HAVE NOT THE POWER, ON EITHER SIDE, TO IMPOSE THEIR WILLS. Agreement requires mutual give and take, and, when this is not forthcoming, negotiations grind to a standstill.

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  • 61. At 9:02pm on 18 Jul 2010, Thakur wrote:

    Also, Pakistan does NOT want Kashmiris to necessarily attach themselves to Pakistan, although that would be very lovely and most importantly, natural. Pakistan's stand point is that the Kashmiris must be given their right of seld-determination through a plebicite held under the auspicies of the UN, singularly in accordance with the resolutions of the UNSC, to which India had agreed at the time.

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  • 62. At 9:19pm on 18 Jul 2010, Lip06fw wrote:

    Indian Government is unwilling to send Army to Naxal areas where their CRPF men are butchered like broiler chickens. When it comes to Kashmir it took a phone call for Omar Abdullah to call the Army in..what a Joke. It has shown Omar's inability and inefficiency to govern the State. A strathclyde University drop out was never fit for the role. Farooq Abdullah accepted in his interview with Karan Thapar that he was a failure and he has left the job to his son to full fill the promises he had made to the Kashmiri people; however Omar has not only failed to govern the state, he has failed to rule his administration.
    India can not stop Kashmiri people by telling them History lessons, the time has come to settle down the issue.
    The Kashmiri struggle is going on for 20 years and still India has not realized the essence of resolving the issue. This shows the India's hypocrite,double standard and filthy face to the International community where they try to behave like a secular state.
    And for those who do not want a solution to the Kashmir problem, at least show some sympathy to the innocent people who have died so far....Who Killed them.....no blame game... India

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  • 63. At 9:36pm on 18 Jul 2010, Thakur wrote:

    Addition to my post @60
    The Gurdaspur and Ferozepur were muslim majority districts/divisions. and as per the rules of division, had to be given to Pakistan (i.e. Muslim majority districts to Pakistan and Non-Muslim majority to India)

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  • 64. At 9:38pm on 18 Jul 2010, MAS wrote:

    In response to 56. CS.
    My knowledge of indian history is not deficient, i wish it was. But as a kashmiri i think my knowledge of kashmiri history is deficient because it is not promoted by India in our schools or colleges. I do know about maulana Azad, Frontrier Ghandhi, Nehru and rest lot of your leaders, but they were not our leaders. I want to know about Yusuf sahi chak, lali arifa, shah hamdan who were our leader, thinker and poets and we should know. Comparison between Shivaji and Maqbool bhat was for a reason which unfortunately you have not understood.
    This is problem of imposing your culture and your history on us. How is Maulana Azad relevant to Kashmir, he even never once visited kashmir. He represented indian muslims and that is fine but he had nothing to do with kashmir. I have read few of his books base on his letters while he was in jail, nothing in them which was any related to kashmir. Kashmir was at that time ruled by Dogra Mahraja who used to leve heavy taxes on local peasants and was a tyrant. Maulana never said anything about that. If you want me to celebrate your leaders and your heros, i refuse. I refuse because indian leaders have always treated kashmiris as second class citizens who can be kept down by force.
    Don't force your culture, your leaders, your heros on us, we have our own and let us celebrate them first and than we will apperitiate world leaders like M. Ghandhi and Mendala.

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  • 65. At 10:05pm on 18 Jul 2010, anirudh wrote:

    @64
    I really sympathise with your generation in the valley. Having the army and CRPF camped next door is no fun at all. I went to jammu for visiting the vaishno devi shrine a few years ago, and the security was so tight that it seemed like some strange african dictatorship.

    Now before other Indians start picking up a fight, I am as patriotic as the next guy. But my patriotism is based on living in an India which gives (mostly) freedoms of speech,expression etc. Most importantly, I can see the fruits of gdp growth in the cities, and the police forces are not opressive (though they may be thoroughly incompetent at times).

    This experience is completely different from what kasmiris see. It might help if we try to see things from their perspective. Can you imagine not being allowed to leave your house for two entire weeks? Thats what happened just these past few weeks.

    Ofcourse, this does'nt mean we are "opressing" the kashmiris for fun. The army was strictly on the border till 1989. Only the outbreak of militancy made it move into the cities. And there is NO counter-insurgency (think Iraq,Afghanistan,Northern Ireland, Chechnya) that does'nt produce civilian casualties.

    If India really wanted to commit "genocide" against the muslims of the valley, it would have happened long ago. After all, there are only 6 million of them. Infact, India maintains this status quo by preventing Hindus from Bihar,Andhra,U.P. etc from moving to Kashmir (think Art. 360 of the Constitution).

    Frankly, there is no way out in Kashmir. It is sad that the most beautiful place in India (or even the world) should be so cursed. Perhaps the only thing to do for the young generation of Kashmiris is to migrate to other parts of India.

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  • 66. At 10:08pm on 18 Jul 2010, Thakur wrote:

    TO Mr. Jay (post #53)
    I m extremely grateful to u for posting that
    That is the whole problem. Hardcore indians like u think that all others are kiddos and can't handle their own affairs. U singularly fail to recognize that TIME PASSES and Kids GROW UP and learn how to handle their life. If u want to play dad, I have a suggestion for u: Give the kids what they want; and they will come back to u IF they failed.
    Regarding problems in Pakistan:
    Bro every country has problems. Our problem (or blessing) is that our media is totally free and in competing for the breaking news: they extrapolate. Yes the problems are here (thanks to US and ur country) but these are not eternal, thanks to US and ur country. We are at WAR right now, and these things just keep us in the running for the big day.
    I don't want to get into a blame game, but pls consider that If India has a seperatist movement in 150 of its 600 districts(150/600 Indian districts are out of control of government), does this mean that India has failed? If India has the greater number of poor than the whole of Africa, does this mean Indian economy is failing. You might answer them otherwise, but I would open-mindedly say that NO. These are just problems. and countries can get themselves past through these.
    However, how india is doing so is a topic for another debate for which I don't have time. I 'd rather focus on mine.
    Will u do the same... Perhaps not
    My advice to u. Give now the full fledged freedom to the Kashmiris they deserve, which they will take anyways with our help,say, 5 yrs time. Disband the army u have in Kashmir and through the money saved, make toilets for ur people, who, unfortunately have to ease out them selves along the railway tracks in the morning.
    If u have travelled by train in ur country, u 'd definitely know what I m talking about

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  • 67. At 10:21pm on 18 Jul 2010, Lip06fw wrote:

    @66, Well said Thakur, looks like you have travelled by train a lot in India, I agree with you. You made me laugh....Going to bed now ALLAH HAAFIZ

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  • 68. At 10:39pm on 18 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    Dear Mr Thakur. I think you need to know that some kids never grow up, particularly if they are spoiled by an equally short-sighted gurduian (just like spoiled brats of a rich dad). It will be foolish to give whatever s/he wants. As I said before, it will not be considered kindness but an act of stupidity to give meat to mad dogs. I firmly belive that the problem between India and Pakistan will NOT be solved EVEN if India gives Kashmir freedom OR allow it to become part of Pakistan.
    If Pakistan really want freedom for Kashmir, then let them fight for that in a straight forwad way than to wage a proxy war by putting the guns on the shoulders of Kashmiris (as India did for Bangladesh). First, let Pakistan give freeodm for its part of Kashmir (and other people who are fed up with dictatorial rule of some religious bigots).
    It will be a great denger for international community to allow another fundamentalist islamic country in a already highly charged neighbourhood that export Islamic terrorism on a global scale.

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  • 69. At 00:33am on 19 Jul 2010, kklimmy wrote:

    I am an outsider from Malaysia and I apologise for any comments deemed unreasonable. The problems between Pakistan and India have been in existence since the partition. There is mutual distrust in everything and Kashmir is a festering sore. It may sound frivilous but maybe a good punch-up is required. Then the winner takes all once and for all!

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  • 70. At 03:46am on 19 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    Thakur you need to remember few more facts before you start taking pride of, ”Also, there was talk about India's "Restraint" and "Patience", in that India could have forcefully dealt with Pakistan. My bro, if this had been the case, India would have never come to the table. Situation is much changed in 63 years: now we make our own guns, our own bullets, our own tanks and By the grace of Almighty, our own jet fighters. Give it a try if u wish, but only consider one thing: If Pakistan's only one agency (i.e. ISI) can be such a nightmare to India, which has obsessed the whole Indian aristocracy, what would the whole army do”.
    Do you know that one of the main earning sources for Pakistani economy, in recent times, is foreign aid. It also has a habit to bite the hands that feed it (we all know how “cooperative” Pakistan is in its half-hearted, selective “war against terror” and how satisfied its “allay” US is). Everyone in any neutral country knows how Pakistan got nuclear technology (from China) and missile technology from another rogue state, North Korea. We also know how “responsibly” Pakistan used those weapons of mass destruction and developed the first Wal-Mart of such technologies to export to few other countries like Iran, Libya etc. It is also a great danger for the world to allow such an irresponsible state to have nuclear weapon in the first place. In fact, many think tanks believe that Pakistan will have no chance in conventional war to withstand an all-out attack by India and have almost no option but to use nuc at the earliest. Pakistan economy cannot withstand a full-blown war for more than 7 days, at best.
    You also need to remember the fate of Pakistani army (all three armed forces took part, along with its notorious ISI) in all three wars Pak had with India. Then came the huge humiliation and international embarrassment for Pakistan during Kargil invasion. India should have known that showing kindness/forgiveness to someone who need punishment is not a good policy, even for that person itself. Pakistan should have been disciplined long ago by India and responsible members of international community to prevent that country to attain its present state where it exports Islamic terrorism worldwide, indulge Indian Kashmir.

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  • 71. At 05:47am on 19 Jul 2010, Chrysanthemums wrote:

    It's interesting how easily people can be divided by religion, which from an outsider's point of view, seems to be the real crux of the matter between Pakistan and India. Pakistanis and Indians share a common history. There is more in common between the two than there are differences. If both countries cannot make peace with people so much like their own in many ways, how can they be a force of peace in the international community, where differences are even greater?

    What happened to the tollerance and unity of the Asokan or Mughal empire? I'm often curious why there isn't more talk of unity instead?

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  • 72. At 05:53am on 19 Jul 2010, Chrysanthemums wrote:

    Since some of you brought up China, it should be noted that there is a sizable Muslim population in China that lives harmoniously with the non-Muslim population. They are known as the Hui people. They share the same history and culture as the rest of China and differ only in their religion and no one is really bothered by them.

    I'm not saying in the slightest that China's treatment of its people of different religions is always fair and just. The point is only to say that it is very possible that two peoples of the same history and culture with different religions can live in complete harmony with one another in the same country.

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  • 73. At 06:53am on 19 Jul 2010, jaytirth wrote:

    kashmas wrote:
    This is in reply to Jay.
    My forefathers were kashmiri pandits, but i am a muslim now, this is true for most of muslims in kashmir, rajori, poonch and jammu.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I wonder if any convert or his descendants can ever accept and digest that they have been forcibly converted. Religion is a very personal issue and it is difficult to believe that mass conversions are not done forcefully. How can all the people suddenly agree that a particular religion is better than their current? Islam spread mainly on the power of sword.

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  • 74. At 07:24am on 19 Jul 2010, nitk_guy wrote:

    @Chrysanthemums : the times of Asoka and Akbar are what Indians and majority of the hindus miss .

    Let me tell u sometime about Akbar : he wanted to unify all the people under a new mix of religions , Hinduism , Zoroastrianism , Islam and others but was vehemently opposed from Islamic religious leaders , and he failed .

    Aurangzeb , was such a fanatic that he ordered mass conversions through sword power : Hindus were persecuted openly in his time .

    The muslims are suffering from a historical Stockholm syndrome .

    Here is a big difference between Hinduism and Islam : Although many westerners especially who come to India in the hope of finding a different truth are welcomed , but we do not want the whole world to become Hindu , and this is documented in history : there is absolutely no record of Hindu generals forcibly converting people to accept our gods and books .

    Zorawar Singh , a general who took his army to Tibet once , never destroyed or plunder any Buddhist shrines . On the other hand , many places of worship in Europe , Israel were once not mosques .

    This is the main difference between the mind of all these people , blind supremacy of Islam , that created Pakistan and now the push for Kashmir .

    Indians who have heard about Jesus do not condemn him in any way , they respect him as a holy figure , because there is absolutely no diktat in our holy books , unlike Islam which says : there is no other god but Allah .

    This is what they chant in freedom rallies :-

    why do they want independence : There is no other good but allah .
    what is their relation to pakistan : there is no other god but allah .

    I am confident of all westerners , be it UK , USA or France or anybody else to see my point .

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  • 75. At 09:59am on 19 Jul 2010, Autar Dhesi wrote:

    The road blockers to peace have been flourishing on both sides under the cover of ever thickening, mysterious,misty clouds hovering on the horizon of the subcontinent since the dawn of independence days. The common objective of twice born elites has been to snatch power and perpetuate their vice like grip over its levers by fair or not so fair means,meticulously camouflaged as sacred pursuit of respective national interests. As a consequence,hapless,gullible 'common man' has been on a costly,bumpy,endless ride.The emaciated invisible or not so invisible agencies,handy tools of dirty tricks, often more successful against fellow citizens than others, are always there to accept any blame silently. Such mindless, misdemeanour of civilians or non-civilians is nothing short of heinous crime against humanity.
    High time for some respite
    Alas! no deliverance in sight
    But gamesters ever shine bright


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  • 76. At 1:51pm on 19 Jul 2010, Pras_n_Srini wrote:

    A reply to spammer (you put two posts in which you didn't even get data right--where did you get the "$125 billion" spent by India on defence? the defence budget of India is nowhere near even half that figure--and then tossed two more irrelevant posts about Tiananmen) bhaktawar.

    656 AD was battle of Basra, aka "battle of camel", between son-in-law (Ali) and last wife (Aisha) of your "prophet" Muhammed--the point of permanent split between Shia and Sunni (source: Hal Lindsey Planet Earth--The Final Chapter). And it is noticeable that Islam, a religion which historically most resembles the (final false) religion of Revelation 13 (Hal Lindsey, ibid), DOES promote an idea of supranationalism (akin to that of Useless Numpties, and that organisation's predecessor Lame Numpties aka "League Of Nations"--but unlike those orgs, religiously sanctioned) which is not done by any other religion.

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  • 77. At 3:54pm on 19 Jul 2010, chodulamb wrote:

    Pakistan has image problems, her existance is defined in relation to India. Pakistan never made an effort to provide health, education to its citizens, from day Ist, it started war with India. Pakistanis never decided what kind of Pakistan they want, Pakistanis think if they get Kashmir, it will solve Pakistan's problem's, Pakistanis are still talking about Hyderabad and Junagadh. What untites Pakistanis, is anti-India hysteria. Kashmir is not an issue, if it is solved, there will be another issue which Pakistani establishment will raise as we see water issue is coming up. Pakistani army is killing and has killed thousands muslims in Afghanistan, millions in Bangladesh and army/ISI protected and trained fanatics are killing more muslims but Pakistan is concern about Kashmiris, Palestines and muslims everywhere in the world.

    There are more muslims are killed by muslims than anybody else, Saddam killed Iranians and different muslim factions are killing each other in Palestines and Pakistan. If kashimiris want freedom, I see no problem granting them idependence. My question, is there any major political party who represent kashmiris or any general agreement among all Kashmir's political parties? Kashmir can't be governed by stone throwing crowed or different terrorist groups, who are killing each other? Why Kashmir's separatists political parties byecott elections, whom they are afraid of? If they think that they are true representavies of Kashmiris, why can't they agree on future of kashmir and win the trust of kashmiri people?

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  • 78. At 5:08pm on 19 Jul 2010, Nik wrote:

    Let us set things straight. India demands of Pakistan absolutely nothing. Pakistan directly demands from India lands as well as the right to intermingle into the Indian state on the basis of religion which is a horribly aggressive stance.

    It is impossible to talk to Pakistanis. Like so many other muslims, their reason of existence is to expand aggressively at the expense of others. Even if India makes Kashmir a present to them, next year they will invent a new issue, e.g. related to the increasing (due to their poverty and increased demographics, even in a country like India) muslim minority in India. Indians are the only civilised state in the region and as such it hsa to be

    Like other regions in the world where muslims are the US agents (Turkey, Indonesia, Bosnia, Afganistan of the 1970s-80s etc.). Pakistan is the good-old British and then US tool to control-contain the greater area and is used as a weapon against India. India is seen almost as an enemy by US not to forget that large US financial interests (private ones) have largely invested in China (and thus the relative commercial hysteresis of India if compared to China). Yet India as the most civilised nation in the greater Asian region has for the shake of humanity to keep on fighting. Indians should never give up under any excuse. Give up something and you will lose the double let alone your own standing as a country. You Indians are fighting much larger forces than the 3rd world Pakistanis. But don't forget that you are large too and have the power to do so. Have an eye for internal circles fighting you from the inside.

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  • 79. At 5:23pm on 19 Jul 2010, RealtyCheck wrote:

    There is no justification for killing anyone.............
    Kashmir the core issue is creating terrorist groups or terrorism; so It would me more logical to resolved it FIRST according to the will of people of Kashmir.

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  • 80. At 7:12pm on 19 Jul 2010, Nakheel1 wrote:

    History when viewed through the prism of time tends to divide , whereas the unborn child tends to unite. The only way to resolve dated disputes based on historical mishaps, is to address and create a future which will strive on opportunities and possibilities that people can create and share together.

    No one can turn the clock back but every one can create a better destiny.

    The challenge is before the politicans to facilitate and convert this inevitable need to reality.

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  • 81. At 7:53pm on 19 Jul 2010, chodulamb wrote:

    @60, @61, @67
    You represent army/ISI/mullah thinking, you forgot to mention that:
    - Pakistanis ruled the world (India, Spain and Hungary) for 1000 years, Indians were your slaves
    - Pakistani missiles are more advanced and have more powerful atom bomb than India
    - Indians are cowards and paleets, Pakistan won all wars (1948-199)
    - You have more advanced technology (your jet fighter developed only by Pakistanis), Pakistan will be on the moon in next 5 years
    - Pakistan’s economy is more developed than India’s . All muslims in Pakistan are living in peace and harmony, no kiliings of muslims in Pakistan if there are it is RAW/massad/CIA’s work
    - 150 of its 600 districts(150/600 Indian districts are out of control), please update your information that number was 5 years ago, now whole India is out of control. I have been reading these comments for 5 years now? Please check your source of information Zaid Hamid/Hamid Gul’s video or madrassa

    You will get Kashmir and Pakistan’s problem will be solved, Pakistanis will have education, healthcare, electricity and food. Against whom you will use your weapons, Baluchs, Shia’s, Muhajirs? Why India will attack Pakistan? Does India want to inherit the mess called Pakistan? With people like you, Pakistan doesn’t need enemies. Keep on blaming USA/India/Israel for your problems and paying for your army/ISI/Mullah’s aiyashi and their sons and daughters education in the Europe. They will be happy to keep you madrassa educated and attack India, Pakistan will become prosperous.
    @62
    What are your suggestions to Kashmir’s problem? Give Kashmir to whom? Which is the major political party that has mandate of Kashimiri people? Do you want Afghan situation in Kashmir, militant groups killing each other as they are doing in Pakistan and Afghanistan? Kashimiris should start to prop-up a strong political leadership that will represent Kashmiris and their interests rather their paid masters?

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  • 82. At 8:49pm on 19 Jul 2010, MAS wrote:

    Kashmiri struggle is not about religion. It is about freedom. Giving a religious twist to this struggle is used by indian establishment to disrepute it. It is very easy in present situation to disrepute any struggle involving muslim majority population by saying they are extremists and terrorists. Having pakistani support even worse for kashmiri struggle, as we can seen from the comments. India being a largest pseudo democracy dosen't help. I call it pseudo democracy as it has never worked for kashmiris.
    It is just simple that kashmirs want independence. Now you can disrepute any independence struggle by giving different reasons and religious extremism is easiest for kashmir. But it is not true.

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  • 83. At 02:54am on 20 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    Dear Kashmas. I fully agree with your comment, “Having pakistani support even worse for kashmiri struggle”. Now it is up to the leadership of Kashmiri movement to prove to peace-loving Kashmiris that they are serving all relationship and taking active stand against Pakistani sponsorship.
    Now coming to your “freedom” part. What do YOU think the reason for Kashmiri people to want freedom? I remind you that you told that religion is NOT a reason (#82) for that. Then I have the following questions:
    1. If religion is not the reason, then what special problem Kashmir has that cannot be addressed by staying in India?
    2. There were/are so many people in different states who wanted/want separate “homeland” (currently or at some point of time in independent India). How those demand is different that that of Kashmir (if not religion and Pakistan’s proximity)?
    3. In that sense, proponents of Pakistan also wanted a separate homeland for Muslims (in British India) and were successful to get that. Did it make them a better governed country and solved the problems of general Pakistanis?
    4. How a country (an ideal one for example) will deal if some people want “freedom” and do you have any example for that?
    5. How Kashmiri leadership will deal if some other people, village (in Kashmir) who do not want to join “free” Kashmir or Kashmir as part of Pakistan?
    I agree that Kashmir has many problems. But all those problems are as valid and as problematic as compared to many other states in India. I do not believe that any of those problems cannot be solved by staying in India. IN fact there are so many reasons for Kashmir to make a better future by staying in India than being a free country or part of an almost failed state, called Pakistan.

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  • 84. At 2:32pm on 20 Jul 2010, intruder2010 wrote:

    I find the statement made by Mr. Qureshi as being very childish and immature. Any kind of dialogue between India and Pakistan is always a positive step. Mr. Qureshi making these kinds of statements after the meeting is not going help anyone.

    When the foreign ministers made a statement at the joint news conference that their day of talks had been "constructive", and agreed to meet again, then after the joint statement how can a minister say "I want to ask the Indian foreign minister, as he is the principal of Indian foreign policy and direction, why he made and received calls from Delhi so many times during the talks."

    Even though Mr Krishna has strongly denied Mr. Querish's claim, in my opinion let’s assume he made several calls, what’s wrong in that? I don’t think there is anything wrong in that. If making phone calls are such a big issue then I wonder how should India react on the cross border terrorism and also for all those innocent people killed during the Mumbai attack?

    Mr. Qureshi's response after the meeting with these kind of statements makes me feel is Pakistan really interested in having a constructive dialogue with India, I don’t think so. Pakistan just wants to play blame game with innocent people lives.

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  • 85. At 3:11pm on 20 Jul 2010, keralavarma wrote:

    The breakdown of talks between India and Pakistan was inevitable as both parties don't trust each other. This is nothing new but rather anticipated before it started at all. There is no basis for talks but the accumulated mistrust of 64 years running and if only one party of the two fails there could be a one way dialogue and that is unforseeable in future unless geopolitical situation in the subcontinent takes a tumble as often happens in History as when the Soviet Union failed as a poitical entity with so many cross currents affecting destinies of a continent and its peoples. In geopolitics nations don't sort out issues but new issues take the place of the old ones. None of us seem to have learnt anything from history which unfolds itself willy nilly and life goes on full of strife and deprivation in an ethnic and sectarian divide with so many watching developments on the sides for things to happen their way.

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  • 86. At 5:01pm on 20 Jul 2010, sureshvdrs wrote:

    It has become necessary to debunk the theory that the Kashmiri freedom struggle is a legitimate struggle similar to the Indian freedom struggle or other anti-colonial struggles of the 20th century.Firstly freedom fighters do not indulge in the kind of ethnic cleansing that the valley Pundits had to face.Secondly any freedom struggle has to have a broad appeal among the population of the territory that they seek to free.Do the Jammu and Kashmir seperatists have any base among Hindus, Sikhs,Buddhists, Shias, Gujjars or Bakerwals i.e any community other than Kashmiri Sunnis.Do they have any appeal outside the valley i.e in Jammu or Ladakh?Are they willing to grant self determination to the people of Jammu or Ladakh in the event of they suceeding in establishing an independant state?Even as they wax eloquent about self determination for themselves they deny the same right to their compatriots who remain loyal to India by arguing against division of the state.Is that not hypocracy.
    Do legitamate freedom fighters accept to be on the payrolls of a neighboring enemy state and behave as mere puppets?We often witness long lines of freedom fighters queing up outside the Pakistan Embassy every time a dignitary from there comes to Delhi.What about slogans like Pakistan zindabad by the stone throwing youth? This clearly shows the inspirational source of this so called freedom struggle.
    Do legitimate freedom fighters welcome foreign Jihadis to fight for their cause?Should freedom speeches be delivered to friday congregations in Mosques?Yet they say that they are secular!
    Is India a colonial state? Does India deny citizenship to the Kashmiris ?Do they not have voting rights, fundamental rights, independant judiciary, human rights commission ,vibrant press- as well as a separate constitution and flag.Special provisions are in place to protect Kashmiri identity and discourage migration of outsiders.Even their personal laws are protected.The people of Jammu or Ladakh have no complaints with these arraingements, then why should the Sunni Kashmiri consider himself special.
    The sad inescapable reality theis that the Kashmiri freedom movement is based on parochialism, religious bigotry and exclusivism.The world and pseudo-intellectuals should see its true face.

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  • 87. At 00:54am on 21 Jul 2010, Azad420 wrote:

    #83 Hi Jay you are well...
    1.India can’t resolve the issue on their own unfortunately, the Kashmir problem is mainly about Identity and how people are treated. The majority of people in Indian occupied Kashmir feel they have nothing in common with the rest of India i.e. language, culture, tradition & way of life etc. They are more akin to people from Azad Kashmir & other Northern areas of Pakistan & because of this I feel India would rather not resolve the problem (or can’t) in the fear they could lose Kashmir instead they would rather suppress any unrest with a very heavy hand ,which gives more fuel for all disillusioned Kashmiris. So come on India stop your favourite pass time ‘The Blame Game’ & start listening to the Kashmiris to resolve the issue.
    2. You’re right Jay there is a lot of Indians fighting for their own homeland, I’m surprised India has lasted so long, let’s face it India is a mesh mash of states put together who don’t really get on with each other have nothing much in common (oh sorry they have a couple of things in common ignorance & arrogance) and are being controlled by a central government that doesn’t really have a clue what the reality is in any of the countries hot spots. India is a Yugoslavia waiting to happen!!
    3. Pakistan does have it problems but doesn’t do what you Indians like to do, highlight other people’s problem so to deflect any opinion or criticism on your own internal issues.
    4. The breakup of the USSR is a very good example of people wanting freedom from oppression & being successful in gaining autonomy, so in time there could be a possibility no in fact a probability that Kashmir will gain its sovereignty from its Indian oppressor :-)
    5. India hasn’t resolved the issues in Kashmir in the last 64 years what makes you think they will resolve anything now or in the future.
    Pakistan a failed state ok fair enough that seems to be your opinion however common characteristics of a failing state include a central government so weak or ineffective that it has little practical control over much of its territory; non-provision of public services; widespread corruption and criminality; refugees and involuntary movement of populations; and sharp economic decline surely some of these characteristics are widespread in vast regions of India, dare we say it the mighty Bharat may also on the verge of being a failed state!!

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  • 88. At 06:10am on 21 Jul 2010, kenrod1000 wrote:

    Anirudh, in response to #59, you say Kashmir doesn't have any natural resources or access to the sea. Some of the wealthiest countries don't rely on natural resource. Take Switzerland, Japan or Hong Kong...no resources but they just have to rely on their brains. Kashmir can be the Switzerland of Asia. If it can remain neutral, peaceful and resourceful, it can thrive.

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  • 89. At 10:33am on 21 Jul 2010, anirudh wrote:

    @88 Taking each example one at a time
    Switzerland: The comparison makes sense as far as tourism is concerned. Obviously, tourism massively increased during the peace years (2003-07). However, Switzerland gets a major chunk of revenues from its closed banking system. There seems little reason to think that kashmir can emulate that.

    Hong Kong is a proxy for investment into China. Foreign investors dont need one for investment into India.

    Japan has a highly developed human resource base. Kashmir has very few universities, and none in the top 50 in India.

    Kashmir does have one crucial resource. That is the rivers that flow through it. However, most of them flow (for the most part) through hindu Jammu or buddhist Ladakh.Bhutan gets about 60% of its gdp by selling hydropower to india. Assuming only kashmir valley gets "independent", that is not likely to be a big help.

    Leaving alone the effect independent kashmir valley for its own people, the effect on the rest of India would be so profound that it cannot even be imagined. India as a nation is based on the premise that people of different religions,languages,histories,and cultures can live peacefully and (hopefully soon) prosperously under a free democratic society. Btw, this is not very different from the premise of a multi-racial United States or a multi-cultural Britain. The majority religion, Hinduism, has been known for its tolerance to diversity for many thousand years (the recent rise of the far right notwithstanding).

    If we allow Kashmir to secede, India will break up.

    This is an unacceptable outcome to me and to most indians because the idea of india is the only hope for peace in south asia. The idea of pakistan has led to ethnic,sectarian fragmentation in that country. South Asia cannot prosper under an untolerant, theocratic, and authoritarian society.

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  • 90. At 2:21pm on 21 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    Azad, that is your wishful thinking that India will be a failed state while international community does not think that way. Majority of world powers believe otherwise and site India as a success story so far democracy and economy is concerned. Yes, India has a long way to go to become a developed country and we also must improve our governance. When anyone talk about anarchy or lack of rule of law, we compare with better governed country, NOT with Pakistan. According to UN and many other western powers, “Today no other country on earth is arguably more dangerous than Pakistan”: http://www.newsweek.com/2007/10/20/where-the-jihad-lives-now.html. (Newsweek article).
    We all know how Pakistan treat its own minority. You can see the UN report or credible news report (#19) on that
    “Pakistan city tense after 'blaspheming' Christians shot”: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-10696762. Pakistan is a country where the minister of minority affairs is not a minority himself!
    Anyone can check the condition of so-called “Azad Kashhmir today”: http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/editorial/16-azad-kashmir-today-hs-05
    You also can check the BBC report: “Percentage of people in both sides of Kashmir favour independence is almost same”. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/10207909.stm
    "The headline figures of 44% (in Pakistani-administered Kashmir) and 43% (in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir) opting for independence, for example, conceals wide regional disparities. While in the predominantly Muslim Kashmir Valley in Indian-administered Kashmir, the proportion in favour of independence ranged from 74%-95%. ….
    But in the four districts of the predominantly Hindu Jammu part of Indian-administered Kashmir, there was virtually no support for independence at all."
    “Hindus, who constituted between 15% and 24% of Pakistan’s population in 1947, now comprise less than 1.6% of the population”. Over 300,000 Kashmiri Hindus have been forced to leave due to ethnic cleansing abetted by Kashmiri Muslims in Kashmir valley".
    http://hinduism.about.com/od/history/a/humanrights.htm
    Fiinally, you can check the UNHCR report on Pakistan: http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,,CHRON,PAK,,469f38c678,0.html.
    “A COMPARISON BETWEEN THE HUMAN RIGHTS RECORDS OF INDIA AND PAKISTAN IN 1992, WHICH WAS RELEASED BY THE US STATE DEPARTMENT, REVEALS THAT IF HUMAN RIGHTS WERE CONSIDERED TO BE ABUSED IN INDIA, THEN THE SITUATION IN PAKISTAN COULD ONLY BE DESCRIBED AS "APPALLING", WITH HUMAN RIGHTS "BRUTALIZED" ON A SYSTEMATIC BASIS. The State Department accused Pakistan of persecuting minority Hindus, Christians and Ahmadis. Hindus asserted that they are subject to kidnappings, the forced conversions of young women, and the desecration of Hindu shrines. They also state that they are not permitted to freely practice their religion.”.
    We need to remember that this US state department assessment was much before 9/11 and when US was a very close friend of Pakistan, more than India.
    You also can have a glimpse on Pakistan’s notorious “Blasphemy” law that has forced many minority and many moderate Muslims to keep their mouth shut so far religious fundamentalism is concerned. That is the same law that took lives of 2 Christians I mentioned before in this post.
    Kashmir problem was IMPOSED on India by Pakistan, not by Kashmiri people, in the first place. Creation of Pakistan was a grave mistake, not only to India but to the whole world (as we understand now more than in 1947).

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  • 91. At 5:11pm on 21 Jul 2010, shareiq wrote:

    Lets talk about facts and not deal in perceptions:

    1. Pakistan has used terrorists right since its inception, when tribals invaded Kashmir in 1948, so this terrorism business isn't something new.
    2. Pakistan has always been artificially sustained from outside aid, since 1951 when the Pakistan Prime Minister of the day, went on his own to ask for aid to compete against India.
    3. Pakistan doesn't have a secular constitution, it is actually got laws enshrined in the constitution to KILL anyone in the name of blasphemy which has resulted in numerous yet LEGAL executions in the name of Islam.
    4. Pakistan has been technically bankrupt since late 1980's, and since it hasn't got any money to conduct day to day business, how can it continue to grow militarily and support, train and sustain these global jihadi's is obvious, redirecting mission critical aid towards building military clandestinely .
    5. Pakistan doesn't even have a car assembly plant, that they have build on their own, yet they have nuclear weapons and missiles , hence its so called nuclear and ballistic capability is all foreign.
    6. Pakistan state has always been run like a private estate by its army, the army owns more than 70% of the business in Pakistan , directly and indirectly, how can you get it out of the decision making?

    Cheers,

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  • 92. At 6:07pm on 21 Jul 2010, nitk_guy wrote:

    Pakistan's base was from a hatred of India . That can be forgotten for once , but that it has based its whole identity as a India hating entity is not really a vision for a country , is it ?

    I believe that that the general population in Pakistan , as well as Muslim youth in Kashmir have the full potential for prosperity , but they have to GET RID OF THEIR LEADERSHIP . The Mullahs and Musharrafs are stealing your right to have a life without conflict , to see your children happy , to take a walk in the park of freedom . These are my wholehearted comments being a Hindu .

    Pakistan - India trade and cooperation : look how this opportunity is being wasted .

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  • 93. At 6:13pm on 21 Jul 2010, Azad420 wrote:

    I think all the problems in Pakistan are covered significantly in the world media, having said that thanks for all the facts, figures and links it just proves my point rather than looking at your own problems you just try highlight other people’s issues to detract any attention to your own. All the signs are there: Unrest & civil disorder in Kashmir; Bihar; Assam; Sikkim; Andhra Pradesh to name but a few, the fight against Naxalites who are active in very large portion of India, a weak central Government & a ineffective police force, surely these are signs of a state failing!!
    So stop sledging Pakistan & worry about how to keep India together. As I have said before you could even see the breakup of this great nation.

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  • 94. At 6:18pm on 21 Jul 2010, Azad420 wrote:

    92# The only hatred I see on this blog is Indians constantly sledging Pakistan & trying to make their arguements on religious grounds.

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  • 95. At 6:20pm on 21 Jul 2010, Azad420 wrote:

    Democracy at work Bihar Style :-)

    http://www.ndtv.com/video/special/tags/Bihar%20Assembly%20Disgraceures

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  • 96. At 6:33pm on 21 Jul 2010, anirudh wrote:

    @94
    It is hard to feel love for a neighbour whose official ideology is "not India". Its even harder to feel love for a neighbour that sends its young men across the border to kill innocents.

    Perhaps Gandhiji or the Buddha could feel love for Pakistan as things stand now. But we ordinary humans have a hard time trying to not dislike Pakistan.

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  • 97. At 6:52pm on 21 Jul 2010, Azad420 wrote:

    You don't have to like your neighbour Anirudh but at least be civil, all you see on any blog is Indians Sledging Islam & pakistan etc.. doesn't matter what the topic is!

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  • 98. At 7:07pm on 21 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    Dear Azad, If you think kashmir problem is not religious and also not imposed by Pakistan, then I can ask you the same Qs I had for Kashmas (post #83) with few modifications.

    What do YOU think the reason for Kashmiri people to want freedom (mainly from India, not so much from Pakistan, as you think)? I remind you that you told that religion is NOT a reason (#82) for that. Then I have the following questions:

    1. If religion is not the reason, then what special problem Kashmir has that cannot be addressed by staying in India?

    2. India is a big country with highly diverse culture, language, food habit, religions (also keep in mind different interpretation of same religion), dress code, race and ethinicity etc. There is huge difference between a Bengali and a Gugarati; between Punjabis and Talims, between Marathi and Assamese and so on. Is that very surprising that Kashmir has got its own culture? Can that be any rational ground to seek "freedom"?

    3. There were/are so many people in different states who wanted/want separate “homeland” (currently or at some point of time in independent India). How those demand is different that that of Kashmir (if not religion and Pakistan’s proximity)?

    4. In that sense, proponents of Pakistan also wanted a separate homeland for Muslims (in British India) and were successful to get that. Did it make it a better governed country and helped solving the problems of general Pakistanis (both majority Muslims and minorities)?

    5. How a country (an ideal one, for example) will deal if some people want “freedom” and do you have any example for that?

    6. How Kashmir's muslim leadership will deal if some other people, village (in Kashmir) who do not want to join “free” Kashmir or Kashmir as part of Pakistan?

    I agree that Kashmir has many problems. But all those problems are as valid and as problematic as compared to many other states in India. I do not believe that any of those problems cannot be solved by staying in India. In fact there are so many reasons for Kashmir to make a better future by staying in India than being a free country or part of an almost failed state, called Pakistan.

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  • 99. At 7:29pm on 21 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    It was a great mistake to start the talk with Pakistan in the first place, mainly after parliament attack and then again after 26/11. Indian leadership, mainly under Congress party always make that mistake by thinking that showing kindness and extending hands of friendship will solve any problem. No it does NOT, unless the other party knows the meaning of friendship. In reality it is the Congress leadership that created and then allowed this Kashmir problem to flourish. I am reasonably sure that if Congress were in power during Kargil invasion by Pakistan, we would have lost that part of India as well (as we did in 1948).
    Forgiveness of a weak person means nothing. India must learn the language Pakistan understands . And that is the language of power. US president GW Bush did just that after 9-11 to get "cooperation" from Pakistani establishment and practically exported American war on terrorism to Pakistan at a fraction of the cost (both financial and human lives) if US had to do that by itself. Once that job (Afghan problem) is done it will not be much problem for US to take care of Pakistan, if needed (and we now have enough evidences for that with Obama administration).
    All the three wars India had with Pakistan was initiated by Pakistan (check wiki). Even then India could not take advantage of that and solve Kashmir problem by liberating Pak occupied Kashmir by bringing it back to India and systemically weaken Pakistani army.
    It will be equally futile to talk to Pakistan unless Pakistan show tangible results that it is dismantling terror infrastructures, taking punitive measures against Islamic terrorists (as declared by US, UN and India) and stopping anti-Indian activities. After all it is the responsibility for India to take care of its own interest. If India fails to do that, then it is useless to blame anyone else.

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  • 100. At 7:30pm on 21 Jul 2010, Azad420 wrote:

    Jay I think answered all your questions in post #87

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  • 101. At 9:05pm on 21 Jul 2010, Azad420 wrote:

    Jay if you dont talk how are these problems going to be resolved?

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  • 102. At 9:48pm on 21 Jul 2010, anirudh wrote:

    @Azad

    Hating Pakistan is not the same as hating Pakistanis. Pakistanis (normal people) are our blood brothers. Pakistan(the military establishment,ISI) is our enemy.


    I don't think any sane person would oppose peace between the two countries (specially because of nukes). However, there should atleast be some purpose to talks.

    It seems that Pakistanis fail to realize the psychological impact of the Mumbai attacks. Whenever India tries to compromise for peace (Vajpayee's Lahore bus, Manmohan-Musharraf initiatives), it gets stabbed in the back (Kargil,26/11). The argument that Pakistan is an equal/greater victim of terror is true technically but Pakistanis its pain is self inflicted. Pakistan would be an equal victim if Indian state agencies were engaging in terror attacks on Pakistani soil. Though that allegation has often been made by fanatics like Zaid Hamid, most Pakistanis recognize the imprints of the Punjabi Taliban on the past year's attacks.


    What really makes things so hopeless is the stranglehold that the armed forces(and particularly the ISI) of Pakistan have on the country. Even the Indian and Chinese armies are aggressive ,but they don't dictate state policy. The Pakistani army has a vested interest in continuance of the conflict (why would a bankrupt government allow such huge defence budgets otherwise?). They will torpedo any progress towards peace directly (think Kargil) or indirectly (Mumbai).

    What is needed is a visionary army chief unlike Kayani. For all his faults, Musharraf clearly saw the importance of peace with India. If only he had lasted in power for another year, perhaps kashmir might have been solved. Here's to hoping that God grants wisdom to Kayani's successor.

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  • 103. At 00:14am on 22 Jul 2010, Azad420 wrote:

    @Anirudh
    If only all Indians shared your sentiment about Pakistanis being your blood brothers.
    The Indian establishment is no different to the Pakistan’s (civil or military) they both Govern their respective countries they both represent the countries people especially when it comes to cross border disputes. RAW & ISI both engage in cross border activities & to say they don’t would be very naive and foolish.
    There is a purpose to talk & that would be to discuss all issues that are a stumbling block for Pakistan & India being peaceful neighbours. For a start the Mumbai attacks, Kashmir & the water issues should be part of the agenda as these are the topics that seem to be the ones that need to be addressed.
    You make it sound as though it’s just Pakistan who is the stumbling block in any discussions, well from the looks of last week’s meeting it was more like the Indian Minister who was a stumbling block showing his arrogance & not prepared to talk about all issues that are causing so much tension.
    It doesn’t matter who is power all Pakistanis want is to resolve all the disputes with India it isn’t in Pakistan’s interest for these disputes to continue. However India on the other hand is over playing the victim card which is more of delaying tactic so not to talk about issues that Pakistan want to discuss(Kashmir & Water).

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  • 104. At 04:24am on 22 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    Dear Azad, your post#87 does not answer any of my Qs (#98).
    I have the following suggestions, so far resolving the problem of Kashmir is concerned.
    1. India needs a strong, nationalist political party (e.g BJP under AB Bajpayee) at central without too many annoying coalition partners (SP, BSP, TMC, AIADMK etc).
    2. Pakistan also should have a strong nationalist government without depending on religious political parties. I am not well aware of Pakistan’s internal politics. But it seems that Pakistan needs fresh and young politicians who has more truly believes in democracy and knows how to keep religion strictly a personal matter.
    3. Pakistan needs to discipline its armed forces and ISI. They must obey civilian government (NOT the other way round).
    4. Pakistani government need to separate religion from state businesses. Unless it does that, Pakistani government can never stop interference of Mullahs and Islamic fundamentalists in their governance (directly or indirectly). That in turn will provoke Pakistan to use Islamic terrorism (jihad) as part of state foreign policy.
    5. All special statuses to any Indian state (e.g Article 407 for kashmir) must be abolished to allow people in those states to get assimilated into national main stream.
    6. All religious laws (including Hindu and Muslim personal laws) must be scrapped and uniform civil code should be implemented.
    When you give a beggar a bread every day, after sometime he start thinking that as his right, not as privilege. Such special privileges (based on statehood or religion or caste etc) is bound to have the same consequences. That is one of the reasons why Kashmiris think they are “special”.
    7. Indian government must start administrative and police reform to stop abuse of power by powerful administrative (includes ministers) and police officials and use that power against common citizens. Such misuse of power is not limited to Kashmir but almost any state in India.
    8. Both India and Pakistan (government and private NGOs) should start long term social reform to get rid of its current feudal system. Sometime ago I read a nice article in BBC in that regard, "Hypocrisy of Pakistan's ruling elite": http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6933876.stm
    9. Corporate governance is nothing but farce in both of these countries (degree may be different). Both of these countries must introduce transparent corporate governance so that young entrepreneurs can start their ventures that will benefit local youths. Such transparency will also minimise political decisions to be influenced by private business interests.

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  • 105. At 06:22am on 22 Jul 2010, kenrod1000 wrote:

    Anirudh, I was just commenting that your premise in post 59 is wrong in that you assume that just because a country doesn't have natural resources it's not viable. Japan was totally destroyed in WW II, has no oil or other natural resources and yet the people are wealthy. Same with Hong Kong which has no crops growing or anything to mine, yet the people flourish. And they have doing it long before it reverted to China.

    In fact the opposite is also true. Look at countries that have enormous natural resources, and the people are dirt poor. Take Saudi Arabia or Mexico with its massive oil reserves. The masses are starving and mired in poverty. Economists call it the "curse of oil".

    My point is that Kashmir is viable as an independent state if there is the will. The problem is that it's torn between its two giant neighbors that only wants to use it as a pawn. In my opinion, the way to solve the hot zones all over the world is to allow the people who want to govern themselves to form their own state. Jerusalem, a hotly contested city by both Jews and Muslims, should be an international city. It should not belong to either side and people should be free to move in and out. President Carter had suggested it and doing so will not break up Israel. Likewise, I don't see how an independent Kashmir would break up India. India is splintering up on its own anyway. We have more states today than we did in 1947. People are Punjabi, or Bengali, or Gujrati first, before they relate to being Indian.

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  • 106. At 10:56am on 22 Jul 2010, Autar Dhesi wrote:


    The talks have to really get going before they can collapse. There have been numerous get to-gethers for one reason or the other but no serious dialogues. The basic problem is lack of trust in one another's intentions.
    Hope the two sister states would be able to remove the hidden roadblocks one day for the good of poor people on both sides
    The road blockers to peace have been flourishing on both sides under the cover of ever thickening, mysterious, misty clouds hovering on the horizon of the subcontinent since the dawn of independence days. The common,desperate objective of twice born elites has been to snatch power and perpetuate their autocratic, vice like grip over its levers by fair or not so fair means, meticulously camouflaged as sacred pursuit of respective national interests. As a consequence, hapless, gullible 'common man' has been on a costly, bumpy, endless ride.The emaciated invisible or not so invisible agencies, handy tools of dirty tricks, often more successful against fellow citizens than others, are always dutifully there to accept any blame silently. Such mindless, misdemeanour of civilians or non-civilians is nothing short of heinous crime against humanity.
    High time for some respite
    Alas! no deliverance in sight
    Gamesters ever shine bright
    Facetious pride , citizen’s plight
    While they merrily bray
    Wait in silent pray

    On an optimistic note, demeaning, farcical, political dramatists are likely to go into obilivian with a worst of floodlights of knowledge. They would find themselves out of place in a knowledge society. The wise and noble are likely to prevail by marginising modern day Neros and charlatans( a pious wish). This should give relief to ever suffering common man and some consolation for lost souls of lesser beings. What a democracy! But it is only for the chosen ones.
    Some cynical citizens may lament that invisible (cross border) norms of reciprocity seem to have been internalised by elites to come to each other’s rescue at critical moments. The collusive game play,however, should come to an end sooner or later as the play field is becoming visibly open by the day. Till that time, one act plays on ‘peace’ would be considered smoke screens for some unethical aims by many on both sides. Somehow, by quirk of fate the progeny of many selfless liberators stands besmirched due to doings of knaves..

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  • 107. At 1:19pm on 22 Jul 2010, Nik wrote:

    105. At 06:22am on 22 Jul 2010, kenrod1000 wrote:

    """Likewise, I don't see how an independent Kashmir would break up India. India is splintering up on its own anyway. We have more states today than we did in 1947. People are Punjabi, or Bengali, or Gujrati first, before they relate to being Indian."""

    Go propose to the US to give Texas its independence, why don't you really?

    Your logic is a non-logic. Kashmir is a region. I am not specialist in Indian history but I have this notion that Kashmir never existed as a state by-itself on its totality but was always part of other states or divided in local feudal-like territories. Kashmir historically had been a hindu region and muslims cames as conquerors just like everywhere in India. When India became independent soon the muslims mainly positioned in the west and the very east of the country (pushed of course by the British who had already arranged it) pushed for splitting the country and went on ethnically/religiously cleansing Pakistan of all its Hindus and the same they tried to do in Kashmir.

    Pakistan repeatedly attacked India and has already grabbed a part of Kashmir which was of course cleansed in the same way Pakistan has been cleansed of its Hindu minorities. In the other part, resting in India the majority is again muslims but there are also Hindus (though the muslims pretend that most of them are recent influxes due to the presence of the army which technically speaking is correct if we add the military as permanent population but muslims would not be anyway the totality of the population, hindus always existed there as being anyway the older habitants of the place).

    Have no doubt over it. Kashmir is an 100% geostrategic place and the one who controls it controls waters and passages. That is all the question for Pakistan and India. Pakistan has already attacked viciously and already gotten a part of it, now they want the whole of it.

    What is the logic behind supporting the Pakistani? Well US and Britain of course. Pakistan is their toy country with which they keep a menace over the giant India. They over-feed Pakistan with weapons and have even permitted it to become a nuclear power (what they refuse to Iran, the most peaceful country of the area, the one that has never attacked anyone in the past 1000 years there...) to counter-balance India.

    Well no. There is no discussion over it. Pakistan is an aggressive country and any discussion to do with its demands treating them as valid ones is bound to be US/British orginated but for the rest of the non-muslim world (i.e. the vast majority of the world), Kashmir is an Indian territory. India is already a federal state, a democracy that has given infinite autonomy to its states (there you have from capitalist to communist states) and it is a state that respects all religions. Hence, there is little basis to any muslim Kashmiris to complain about - whoever of them go against the Indian state are simply the victims of Pakistani propaganda and their own blind religious fanatiscism.

    India at some point has to stop talking with Pakistan treating it as a neighbour, it has to start treating it as a rogue country.

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  • 108. At 7:13pm on 22 Jul 2010, snashraf wrote:

    Obviously India has always avoided discussion on topics which are relevant for permanent peace. Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and other senior politician knew the value of peace. They must come foward and perform their role for peace.

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  • 109. At 7:57pm on 23 Jul 2010, Zaheer Uddin wrote:

    Like all living beings, procreation is a process of preserving life forms. At one time human beings mated without any restrictions, as sophistication and the integration of religion entered in our lives we treated sex a secret activity, marriage, sin, cleansing and certain other rituals were added on, such as, prohibiting men from sitting where a women in her menesural cycle sat, to prevent getting leprosy, impotency and what not. In some religions she is not allowed to cook/eat with the rest of her family and friends, her utensils are forbidden to others in the family, her bed or sleeping space is confined away from the rest, she is not allowed to get near plants to prevent wilting. She is denied entry in sacred places, places of worship. This kind of nonsense is handed down because of male supremcy and misogny.

    Sex education and the baggage handed down through the ages has to be cast away. Sex education should be compulsory for all children right from the early years in school. In this day and age, the youth actively engage in sexual activities, once they are aware of the responsibilities and the risks they will be discreat and prevent contracting SCD, and early parentage which prevents continuing further education.

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  • 110. At 01:01am on 24 Jul 2010, Zaheer Uddin wrote:

    Peace treaty is usually enacted between equals. India is far more powerful in all aspects, they have been holding the state for more 63 years illicitly. India has ignored that hundreds of thousands of the people, mainly Muslims have died protesting against the occupation, the people of Kashmir have even expressed to be autonomous but India holds a deathly grip on the Kashmiris. On the other hand Pakistan settled the boundary with China with the consent of the regional government. India does not wish to live in peace with its neighbours, e.g. Shri Lanka, illegal occupation of Maldives, instrumental in the break up of of Pakistan and Bangla Desh, (Bangla Desh considers India as arsenic), Bhutan, Nagaland, Burma, China. They have opened a number of councils in Afghanistan after the departure of the Soviets, but no Afghan was provided refugee in India, it was Pakistan who took 3.5 million and Iran 1.5 million Afghanis. India says it is a peace loving democracy, ask the Sikhs, thousands were killed on the assassination of Indra Gandhi, 160 million Dalats are considered untouchables and are struggling to gain equality. Indeed, the President is an untouchable and the PM is a Sikh, but realities on the ground are different. It has a huge standing Armed Forces, and is a major exporter of weapons. It is waste of time talking to India, they snug in wherever they find comfort and readjust their stance when necessary. Now they talk of the Mumbai riots, what about the thousands and thousands of Muslims killed Gujrat state and the dispute over Barberi Masjid.

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  • 111. At 03:40am on 24 Jul 2010, nitk_guy wrote:

    @ 109 : Zaheer , i can see that u r concerned about healthy sexuality , and i have a short and economically cheap answer to this problem : Condoms , and also awareness and medical hygiene .

    I hope you are not suggesting denial , condemnation as sin , ignoring it , as it turns a beautiful and creative energy into something which it does not deserve to be .

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  • 112. At 5:33pm on 24 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    There is NO point to talk to Pakistan. You can nnot talk peace to sommeone who do not even understand what that means. Pakistan or muslim commmunity there are NOt interested in either peace or kashmiri welfare. For more detail one can read my post #98, #99, #104. If any Pakistani or Mislim disagree with me, then s/he can reply my Qs in those posts (else I can repost my questions).

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  • 113. At 5:36pm on 24 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    Correction to my previous post:
    Pakistan or MANY AMONG muslim commmunity there is NOT interested in either peace or welfare of Kashmiri people.

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  • 114. At 5:44pm on 24 Jul 2010, Jay wrote:

    Zaheer, you perception about India and Pakistan is not right. You can compare the human rights records for both Pakistan and India by any neutral, credible agency.
    you can check the UNHCR report on Pakistan: http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,,CHRON,PAK,,469f38c678,0.html.
    “A COMPARISON BETWEEN THE HUMAN RIGHTS RECORDS OF INDIA AND PAKISTAN IN 1992, WHICH WAS RELEASED BY THE US STATE DEPARTMENT, REVEALS THAT IF HUMAN RIGHTS WERE CONSIDERED TO BE ABUSED IN INDIA, THEN THE SITUATION IN PAKISTAN COULD ONLY BE DESCRIBED AS "APPALLING", WITH HUMAN RIGHTS "BRUTALIZED" ON A SYSTEMATIC BASIS. The State Department accused Pakistan of persecuting minority Hindus, Christians and Ahmadis. Hindus asserted that they are subject to kidnappings, the forced conversions of young women, and the desecration of Hindu shrines. They also state that they are not permitted to freely practice their religion.”.

    It is Pakistan that created talibans and is the root cause of Afghanistan, in post-soviet era. It used islammic terrorism as state foreign policy and exported that nnot only to Inndia but almost everywhere else in the world.
    India democracy is not perfect BUT its is much better than what Pakistan offered to its citizens (more than 50% of its life time it was under dictatorial military rule). Even now, every wstern country and UN agencies consider Pakistani army and ISI is a state within a state. In such a situation, there is no real possibility to discuss “peace” with its civilian government, for a government that uses Islamic terrorism as state foreign policy, mainly against India and Kashmir.

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  • 115. At 12:07pm on 26 Jul 2010, Autar Dhesi wrote:


    The talks have to really get going before they can collapse. There have been numerous get to-gethers for one reason or the other but no serious dialogues. The basic problem is lack of trust in one another's intentions.
    Hope the two sister states would be able to remove the hidden roadblocks one day for the good of poor people on both sides
    The road blockers to peace have been flourishing on both sides under the cover of ever thickening, mysterious, misty clouds hovering on the horizon of the subcontinent since the dawn of independence days. The common,desperate objective of twice born elites has been to snatch power and perpetuate their autocratic, vice like grip over its levers by fair or not so fair means, meticulously camouflaged as sacred pursuit of respective national interests (read nation building projects). As a consequence, hapless, gullible 'common man' has been on a costly, bumpy, endless ride.The emaciated invisible or not so invisible agencies, handy tools of dirty tricks, often more successful against fellow citizens than others, are always dutifully there to accept any blame silently. Such mindless, misdemeanour of civilians or non-civilians is nothing short of heinous crime against humanity.
    High time for some respite
    Alas! no deliverance in sight
    Gamesters ever shine bright
    Facetious pride , citizen’s plight
    While they merrily bray
    Wait in silent pray

    On an optimistic note, demeaning, farcical, political dramatists are likely to go into obilivian with a worst of floodlights of knowledge. They would find themselves out of place in a knowledge society. The wise and noble are likely to prevail(a pious hope) by marginalising modern day Neros and charlatans. This should give relief to ever suffering common man and some consolation for lost souls of lesser beings. What a democracy! But it is only for the chosen ones.
    Some cynical citizens may lament that invisible (cross border) norms of reciprocity seem to have been internalised by elites to come to each other’s rescue at critical moments. The collusive game play, however, should come to an end sooner or later as the play field is becoming visibly open by the day. Till that time, one act plays on ‘peace’ would be considered smoke screens for some hidden, unethical aims by many on both sides. Somehow, by quirk of fate the progeny of many long forgotten selfless liberators stands besmirched due to doings of political knaves.

    It is certainly a self-righteous, kinky approach to lay down foundations for building modern nations. Equality is a normative ideal goal that is difficult to achieve under the best of circumstances. But in a democratic society, none should be perceived excessively more equal than others. A society characterised by dissonance between stated principles of governance and social practices is in ever need of security threats (real or orchestrated ones, even at the cost of some fellow citizens) to maintain some functional national unity.
    History teaches us that a blinkered social vision based on selective amnesia about honest contributions of beings of lesser gods often proves self-defeating in the long run.
    An ungrateful society is hardly sustainable. Yet , a mature, confident, caring, civilised society is ever ready to recognise such aberrations and make necessary amends. It considers no time bar for positive actions.
    Side Notes on Contemporay Political History
    Sometines poetic graffiti is more meaningful than long winded essays.
    It gives readers freedom to interpret simple verses through their respective prisms. There is no offence if verses get torn apart. That is the essence of democratic living.

    Supple conscience in game
    Delivers a kinky dame
    Flexible morals capricious mind
    Modern to anthropological kind
    Vain mistrust begets guile
    Mirthed in narcissistic bile
    Make debased scamps knights
    Maligning valiant considered right
    Once on self-willed trail
    System sure gets derailed
    Disgrace for mighty tall
    Self-willed future actuated fall
    Pliant underlings sans name
    Fossilised ideas yield shame
    Honourable norms should prevail
    Making none to wail
    New times reticent dame
    Secret exchanges nuanced game
    Foxy call anointed wise
    Creating suspense for ‘sunrise’
    S
    Pretensions not-withstanding, there is no such thing as honesty or integrity in public affairs.
    They constitute the most debased currency for the naive and uninitiated to lap up so that the twice borns may carry on, regardless. Those who know the value of honesty or priceless soul shun barter exchange.





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  • 116. At 5:32pm on 29 Jul 2010, Kamal wrote:

    Dear kashmas and Other Jihadis from Kashmir:

    You say,

    "We want freedom. NOT IIMs and IITs.
    Freedom, Freedom, Freedom, Freedom, Freedom O Freedom when will you be ours."



    You people say you want freedom, I ask, from whom and for what?

    Are you not allowed to elect your own government?
    Are you not allowed to work in India like any other citizen?
    Were you not allowed to kick out non Muslims from Kashmir valley, as it is the part of Islamic holy sunnah?
    Are you not allowed to go to mosque and offer prayers?
    Do you think that security forces kill innocent civilian for no reason?
    Have you not got enough aid from central government for creating riots and trouble in Valley?
    Are you not converted Muslims (From Kashmiri Hindus) whose ancestors were forced to see the divinity in Islam because of various reasons?

    In 1947, British and stupid politicians from India had made a mistake of creating a country based on Islam, and after more than 60 years whole world is paying(in the form terrorism emanating from Pakistan) for that mistake. There are more Muslims who are being killed every week in Pakistan than the jihadis who got killed in whole year in india by their own mistakes. Do you want India to repeat the same mistake in the name of freedom and allow an Islamic state? Who will be responsible for the future terrorist activities which would originate from valley and kill innocent civilian just because Kashmiris would be free to follow the real teachings of Islam?

    These protests are not the result of freedom struggle. Islamic demonstration (for separate country) are also going on every where to name a few South of Thailand, Palestine, Western part of china, Chechnya and in future we would see the same in France, England, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Netherlands etc. It is the religious obligation of Muslims to demand sharia rules (they are already demanding it in UK, USA etc.) where ever they become majority or are in significant numbers, even Muslims are not aware of these things and are being tricked by their mosques who get guidance from Saudi Arabia. To make my point look through the following divine verse which are not restricted to time and place and would cease to exist only when divine Sharia becomes the law of whole world.

    QUR’AN:8:39 “SO FIGHT THEM UNTIL THERE IS NO MORE FITNAH (DISBELIEF [NON-MUSLIMS]) AND ALL SUBMIT TO THE RELIGION OF ALLAH ALONE (IN THE WHOLE WORLD).”
    QUR’AN:9:5 “FIGHT AND KILL THE DISBELIEVERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, TAKE THEM CAPTIVE, HARASS THEM, LIE IN WAIT AND AMBUSH THEM USING EVERY STRATAGEM OF WAR.”
    QUR’AN:4:95 “NOT EQUAL ARE BELIEVERS WHO SIT HOME AND RECEIVE NO HURT AND THOSE WHO FIGHT IN ALLAH’S CAUSE WITH THEIR WEALTH AND LIVES. ALLAH HAS GRANTED A GRADE HIGHER TO THOSE WHO FIGHT WITH THEIR POSSESSIONS AND BODIES TO THOSE WHO SIT HOME. THOSE WHO FIGHT HE HAS DISTINGUISHED WITH A SPECIAL REWARD.”
    QUR’AN 9:23 “BELIEVERS, TAKE NOT FOR FRIENDS YOUR FATHERS AND YOUR BROTHERS IF THEY LOVE DISBELIEF ABOVE BELIEF. IF YOU DO, YOU DO WRONG. (THIS VERSE EVEN NOT ALLOWS A MUSLIM TO BE FRIEND WITH HIS NON MUSLIM CLOSE RELATIVES)

    Just look through the above verses and than ask if you (Protesters, Jihadis, silent supporters etc) should even be allowed to live in secular countries and if oppression is the main reason for the demonstration throughout the world. Also Try to find the deep reason(Based on the above verses and your distorted history), why Your ancestors had to convert in to Islam.

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