BBC BLOGS - dot.Rory
« Previous | Main | Next »

Apple podcast: Steve sounds off

Rory Cellan-Jones | 09:50 UK time, Tuesday, 19 October 2010

Can I recommend an episode of a podcast? It rambles on for about an hour, but it does feature one of the most fascinating figures in the modern history of technology letting rip about his company and its philosophy. It should be available on the Apple iTunes store soon.

Steve Jobs

 

Apple's conference call with analysts after it reported another set of record set of results always promised to be interesting enough - if you were an obsessive Mac-watcher or an investor desperate for further nuggets about the gross margin on the iPad, sales of which had disappointed a demanding Wall Street.

Then, after the chief financial officer had trundled through the details of the results, there was a big surprise. Steve Jobs, who hardly ever takes part in these financial set-pieces, was joining the call: first to say a few words, then to participate in the Q&A.

And as soon as Apple's founder and presiding genius opened his mouth, it was clear he was in fighting mood. First in the firing line, RIM, the makers of Blackberry. Their sales had been overtaken by the iPhone for the first time in the last quarter - and in Mr Jobs' view, that was it: game over, no hope of them making a comeback in the foreseeable future.

That was just the hors d'oeuvre. His two main targets were Google's Android system for mobile phones - and anyone deranged enough to think they could take on the iPad. Mr Jobs seemed irritated by the idea that Android phone sales were now overtaking the iPhone, though he suggested the data were unclear. Then he went on the attack. Google had characterised the Android system as open and Apple's IOS as closed - that was "disingenuous", though he didn't quite explain why.

Microsoft was a real example of a company using open systems (that will surprise some of Mr Jobs' disciples) and in any case "open" didn't always win. "We think open versus closed is just a smokescreen to hide the real issue of what is best for the customer - an integrated or fragmented approach." The customers, he said, just wanted something that worked and he was confident that this approach would triumph over the "mess" that was Android's multiple variants and different app stores.

Then he moved to the avalanche of new tablets about to enter the market, suggesting that only a handful of them might prove credible. Mr Jobs seemed outraged that rivals thought seven inches might be a sensible size for a tablet screen - Samsung is just one firm producing a tablet that size.

A seven-inch screen, he maintained, was just 45% as large as the 10-inch iPad. He suggested that makers of such tablets should include sandpaper in the box so that users could sand down their fingers to the right size to be able to use the apps on such a small screen.

The great showman finished this particular rant with a prophecy - the current crop of tablet rivals would be "DOA, dead on arrival." Also dead now are the rumours that Apple is about to unveil a smaller version of the iPad. Steve told us that the tablet was a product "we've been training for for a decade", and he wasn't about to admit that others might have got it right.

During the question and answer session he first parried a query about Apple's bitter dispute with Adobe over the use of the Flash video streaming technology - "Flash memory? We love Flash memory" - then went on to claim that most video on the web was now in the HTML5 format anyway.

While Steve Jobs was holding forth, another Steve was getting some very bad news. Microsoft announced the resignation of Ray Ozzie, the man who inherited the chief software architect from Bill Gates and was seen by many as the firm's leading creative force. For the CEO, Steve Ballmer, to lose one senior colleague might be seen as misfortune - but after months which have also seen the departure of Robbie Bach and Steven Elop, it's beginning to look like carelessness. Mr Ballmer may be many things, but an articulate and inspiring apostle of his company's vision he is not, so he could do with a supporting chorus.

Which brings us back to Steve Jobs. You can argue with much of what he said last night. Is Google's "let a thousand flowers bloom" approach really failing to deliver compared with Apple's rigid approach? Are all seven-inch tablets doomed to fail? Are customers really well-served by devices that can't deal with Flash? But you can't accuse the Cupertino conductor of a lack of leadership or vision. The only problem for Apple is what happens when he decides to put the baton down.

Comments

  • Comment number 1.

    I think the major issue android tablets have is the amount of cheap rubbish coming out. People will compare those against the iPad, and just assume all android tablets are like the cheapy poor ones.

    Add to that, something Steve himself mentioned. Google are still saying android shouldn't be used on tablets.

  • Comment number 2.

    Mr Jobs is just showing the world that he is the master of Spin and propaganda we always knew he was. Because the iPhone sales were greater than RIM's Blackberry for the last quarter RIM are apparently dead in the water? Really Steve? However the data that says that Android phones are outselling Apple phones is suspect apparently. Who are you trying to convince Steve? Us, your shareholders or more importantly, yourself?

    In general, mobile phones have caught up with the iPhone. Sure the iPhone form factor and functionality were real game changers in their day but technology moves at a really fast pace and the iPhone hasn't really gone anywhere. New phones in the market are in some cases doing more now and getting a bigger buzz. The Android OS is becoming mature and the handsets are offering a real alternative to the iPhone due to the price point.

    Another problem though is that compared to the Android OS and the new WinPhone7 OS the iPhone may be considered old hat very soon. That's a major problem for Apple as one of the reasons the iPhone has continued to do well is the fashion factor. People don't buy the iPhone en-mass because it's amazing technology. They buy it because it's cool.

    The (relatively) poor iPad sales could be down to an emerging problem with the Apple brand or it could be that, like me, people just don't know what it's for.

    In summary Android is beating the iPhone and WinPhone7 is generating quite a buzz pre-launch. I suspect that Steve is starting to realize what some of us have already discovered. The Apple brand is falling out of Fashion and Fashion is a cruel mistress.

  • Comment number 3.

    Poor iPad sales? In what universe? The things have been flying off the shelves as fast as Apple can make them!

  • Comment number 4.

    "and anyone deranged enough to think they could take on the iPad"

    "seemed irritated by the idea that Android phone sales were now overtaking the iPhone"

    "seemed outraged that rivals thought seven inches might be a sensible size for a tablet screen"

    "The great showman finished this particular rant with a prophecy"

    "and he wasn't about to admit that others might have got it right"

    "Is Google's "let a thousand flowers bloom" approach really failing to deliver compared with Apple's rigid approach"


    Another impartial and accurate Apple post from Rory - what a surprise!

  • Comment number 5.

    It's interesting that Steve chose an Analysts call to make these comments. Apple are well on the way to becoming the biggest company in the world, ahead of oil companies and some much older brands. It is the stock portfolio that is obviously at the front of his mind.

    As for what happens when he hands over the batton, I doubt very much will change. You could point the to scare when he was off ill or the interviews with previous CEOs that state what a hands on person he is. But the culture in Technology (even beyond Apple) of small teams focused on the customer experience that he has driven will live on.

  • Comment number 6.

    I think that in general techies are missing the point of Apple products, I am making the big assumption here that most people who read and comment on this blog are technical to some degree.

    The thing is, Apple products just work 9 times out of 10, they may not have all of the functions of Android/Windows/RIM.... but there is a reason for that, the user experience.

    I work on Linux, Solaris and Windows all the time, but at home I use Apple, because I don't want to spend my downtime fixing problems.

    This is why Apple does so well with the none technical and why techies find it so frustrating, IMHO.

  • Comment number 7.

    Just for the record, i chose to own an Android phone, so at least some numbnuts cant claim that my post is from an apple supporter..

    But Sean #6 above is dead right, many techheads cant seem to understand that the closed system on apple products is a good thing for what apple are trying to acheive, a product that just works for the average user...if you are a big techhead that demands flexibility from your phone, iPhone is not for you...its that simple, buy one for your computer illiterate mother instead!

    The price of the iPhone is merely down to fashion factor, in the same way in how a luis vitton tshirt can cost $200 despite costing less than 5% of that to make...now THAT is something riles me up good but is a completely seperate issue...

  • Comment number 8.

    I have an iPhone3GS, an iPhone4, an iPod touch and an iPad.
    I have a MacBook Pro too.
    I have a Blackberry, and several Windows based PC's too.
    I've been involved in Computer Science and software development for 30 years. Qualified to have an opinion, I would say. :)

    Sean #6, et al, has hit the nail on the head.
    If you want to spend hours getting the thing to work, choose open systems.
    If you simply want it to work, choose a closed and secure system.
    Why can't you buy Anti-Virus software for Snow Leopard? Hmmm.

    And if you want your iPhone to be more flexible, get a development license and write your own stuff for it. Simples! :)

  • Comment number 9.

    Apple products just work 9 times out of 10

    It depends what you mean by 'work'. If you want to do something that doesn't fit Steve's vision, it doesn't work at all, and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

  • Comment number 10.

    Then you shouldnt own an apple product Ewan....simple...

  • Comment number 11.

    @WingedBeast1968

    "And if you want your iPhone to be more flexible, get a development license and write your own stuff for it. Simples! :)"

    That's simple if you have built your own stuff in a format that Steve Jobs decides he's going to support forever. Sadly this isn't the case as developers have been frustrated several times with Steve's moving goal posts on what you can do, cant do and then can do again.

    "If you want to spend hours getting the thing to work, choose open systems." - Hold on. So are you saying that if you buy a system or a phone with a non-mac OS from a shop then you have to spend hours getting it to work? I don't think so.

    "Why can't you buy Anti-Virus software for Snow Leopard? Hmmm." - Are you trying to further the myth here that OSX is secure and doesn't get viruses. That's a bold statement and sadly not accurate.

    "Qualified to have an opinion, I would say." - Hmmm, not so sure.

  • Comment number 12.

    I don't know if it will get onto iTunes but you can get to the audio here: http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/earningsq410/.

    I'm surprised that so few of the usual anti-apple bigots that comment here haven't taken the bait on this one.

    I like a lot of Apple's products but Jobs really does have an incredibly powerful reality distortion field around him. Sometimes his rhetoric seems bonkers but I think that is because he often needs to be that way to inspire thinking about things in a different way. He also has to provide a single voice antidote to the cumulative barking nonsense often spouted by competitors that dream of emulating Apple's success. Whilst exaggerated for effect, his point about Google's marketing propaganda is right IMO.

    He makes his arguments very persuasively but nobody is forced to agree with them or buy Apple's products. Of course Jobs doesn't get it right all the time. Nobody does. However, his assessment of the market is frequently accurate as his company's results demonstrate. They don't enjoy that success because he is single-handedly hypnotising millions of people all over the world. It's because some of their stuff is really good kit that people are prepared to buy and when they do they get great support.

    Wall Street disappointment on iPad sales is purely because the analysts were unrealistic in their expectations. Shipments were limited because Apple just couldn't get enough displays. They kept telling people that but apparently the analysts were deaf to it. That supply problem is nearly eliminated and the extra retail outlets created just in time for Christmas will markedly improve those shipment stats for next quarter.

  • Comment number 13.

    _Ewan_ I refer you to my previous answer, if you want to do something that Apple doesn't do, then don't use Apple.

    For most non-technical people an Apple product does pretty much everything they want without the grief.

    I am pretty technical, I have built my own Linux server (including h/w) and configured it as file server, mail server, web server etc. I'm so sad I even use vi to edit all the files from the bash shell.

    BUT - I don't want to spend my time doing this for the simple stuff that Apple does so well. The Apple end-to-end system (iOS, OS X, MobileMe) just works.

  • Comment number 14.

    At 11:45am on 19 Oct 2010, nametheguilty wrote:

    "Another impartial and accurate Apple post from Rory - what a surprise!"



    Why does Rory need to be impartial here? This is a blog, not a news story.

  • Comment number 15.

    Rory Cellan-Jones.

    thank you, in return may I recommend the following (spoof) podcast:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crHzvfyK1Ng

  • Comment number 16.

    @SuperG

    "People don't buy the iPhone en-mass because it's amazing technology. They buy it because it's cool."

    Is that your speculation or do you have evidence to back up your assertion?


  • Comment number 17.

    #14

    This.

    I'm sick of people moaning about Rory and Maggie being biased...either they don't know the definition of blog, or i've been massively confused for years. News is on the technology page...Rory's opinion is here...

  • Comment number 18.

    Kampernaut #12, #16.

    "..he is single-handedly hypnotising millions of people all over the world. It's because some of their stuff is really good kit that people are prepared to buy and when they do they get great support."

    in the 1970s and 1980s Braun designed goods used to have a similar appeal for much the same reason -- excellent design, good build quality, good customer services.

    (try Google Images with 'Braun design goods' to see what I mean)


    re buying and 'speculation or evidence'.

    I think both you and SuperG ignore the fact that in the case of the iPhone many people do not buy -- they upgrade via their mobile phone contracts. (I'm guessing but I'd be surprised if more than around 1/3rd of iPhones are actually paid for with cash)

  • Comment number 19.

    @ Kampernaut

    I would say that it's speculation, i don't think he even attempted to pass it off as fact either. It's just speculation that is shared by many other people.

    P.S. that is also me speculating, i don't have the patience to poll people on their speculations.

  • Comment number 20.

    @Kampernaut

    It depends what you consider as evidence. Obviously this statement is partly based on my personal observations and asking people who own an iPhone why they bought one. This came about because before I bought my iPhone 3GS I wanted to hear peoples opinions. The reason I bought one was because at the time the OS and hardware started to support Sat Nav applications and I wanted to buy one piece of hardware rather than two. However I was surprised to find that many other people bought them just because it was the gadget to have at the time.

    You can find many articles online which back this up. I cannot post them here as it goes against house rules but do a search and see what you get. There are several articles I found instantly that discuss why the iPhone does well in the UK and US but not so much in Japan.

    I hope that helps explain a bit.

  • Comment number 21.

    @SuperG
    Re the Japan comment. That is more likely due to the fact the Japanease nearly always prefer local brands. Look how hard other american companies have found breaking the Japan market? (namely MS with the xbox).

    With the iPhone, yeah of course some people get it because its "cool". But a lot of people also get one because it is one of the best smartphones on the market (note that I said one of the best, I recognise that there are other phones that are as good).

  • Comment number 22.

    I particularly enjoyed his rant about "Twitterdeck" (Tweetdeck to the rest of us), which earned a quick rebuke from those he was so badly misquoting (see http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/mobile-devices/2010/10/19/steve-jobs-attacks-android-mess-small-tablets-40090577/).

    Is it just me, or did Steve come off as out-of-touch and fogeyish in that tirade?

  • Comment number 23.

    Too many fanboys to allow for a sane discussion.

  • Comment number 24.

    @WelshBluebird1

    Thanks for your reply. Sadly gaming and gadgets are very different things. Microsoft's big problem with the Xbox and 360 is that the games are not tailored for the Japanese market. The Japanese market likes games of a certain style and content (think Final Fantasy in style). The 360 has a high percentage of Westernized games which don't suit the gamers tastes.

    When it comes to gadgets the Japanese are more interested in tech specs rather than fashion. This isn't always the case but it is more often than not. That's why Apple were giving iPhones away free in the Japanese market to try and create a buzz. They don't give iPhones away for free anywhere else to my knowledge.

  • Comment number 25.

    15. At 2:54pm on 19 Oct 2010, jr4412 wrote:
    Rory Cellan-Jones.

    thank you, in return may I recommend the following (spoof) podcast:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crHzvfyK1Ng
    ----------------------------------------------------------

    and spoof commercial:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZvNMFl7Hec

  • Comment number 26.

    There is no doubt that Apple make a great end user product. In this respect they have got things very, very, right. Even my Dad can use their stuff which is saying something!

    However, I think Steve Jobs has started to go a bit mad. He is falling for his own hype and starting to believe that the only products people want to use are Apple products and also that whatever Apple make, people will use at the expense of everything else. Here lies danger for Apple - they need to keep their eye on the ball, and perhaps need someone in charge with a more objectove view.

    Steve is also starting to contradict himself. One the one hand he is saying that Adobe Flash is bad because it is a 'closed' system whereas Apple is open and friendly. On the other hand he is now critisising Google for their 'open' approach. Apple need to think very seriously about trying to dictate the market and how people should develop apps.

    As a developer myself, at the moment there is no way I would risk developing for iPhone or iPad when they can change the rules and cut of my revenue in an instant. This kind of dictatorship is not good for business and in the end will not be good for growth.

    I think it is good for Apple to wheel out Mr Jobs every now and then because he is a character, but they had better keep him locked up a bit more if they are to stay on top!

  • Comment number 27.

    if you want to do something that Apple doesn't do, then don't use Apple

    That's fair enough, with some major caveats:
    - That assumes you know exactly what you want to be able to do, and you check in advance that the iOS devices can do it. Many people get surprised by missing basic features, or don't realise what potential they're missing out on. Both are bad outcomes, whether the iDevice users realise it or not.
    - It assumes Apple don't change the experience after you've bought the device, and then force the upgrade. Which would be a bad assumption, because they do exactly that.

    Choosing Apple products is like choosing to live in a nursing home - sure, it's nice and safe, and other people take care of you, but it costs you your freedom. If you're OK with that, then great.

  • Comment number 28.

    I can't figure out if the quote: 'Microsoft was a real example of a company using open systems', is attributed to Steve Jobs or Rory Cellan-Jones. Either way it's wrong, Microsoft deal in closed systems.

    #8. seems to imply that a closed system simply works and is secure, while an open system is the opposite and that hours need to be spent to get it to work. This is a sweeping generalisation and simply not true.

    The way to a fully functioning and interoperable internet and global technology system, which is desirable, is to use open standards and open source, neither of which Apple respects.

  • Comment number 29.

    Kit Green #25.

    cheers.

  • Comment number 30.

    OK I think I need to clarify some of my comments for the benefit of those who think that one OS can rule them all.

    There is no one OS that is best for all situations, I've worked on around 10 different OS's of the years using them for different tasks, this is what I think at the moment (it may not be what you think but that's what makes the world an interesting place).

    Servers - Until recently I would have said that Solaris was the best for high availability, high power, high transaction rate. But now my vote goes to Linux. For enterprise collaboration type s/w Microsoft has some very good solutions.

    Business workstation - Windows wins hands down, for historical reasons as well as technology wise it is best. Windows is the IT department's friend, as it can be locked down centrally and you can be sure that whatever application you want will be available.

    Home - Apple wins, it works straight away, there is very low complexity and it will do pretty much everything that the AVERAGE user needs. Serious game players need not apply, go for Windows.

    Anyway that's my thoughts, please flame away ;-)

  • Comment number 31.

    MyVoiceinYrHead wrote "Apple are well on the way to becoming the biggest company in the world, ahead of oil companies and some much older brands."

    Readers may be interested to see where Apple really does stand in the world of technology giants.

    The chart on this page [ http://bit.ly/9tOaHE ] shows 8 major technology players, their total revenues (sales) and their nett profit for each of the last three years.

  • Comment number 32.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 33.

    "30. At 7:26pm on 19 Oct 2010, Sean wrote:

    OK I think I need to clarify some of my comments for the benefit of those who think that one OS can rule them all.

    There is no one OS that is best for all situations, I've worked on around 10 different OS's of the years using them for different tasks, this is what I think at the moment (it may not be what you think but that's what makes the world an interesting place).

    Home - Apple wins, it works straight away, there is very low complexity and it will do pretty much everything that the AVERAGE user needs. Serious game players need not apply, go for Windows.

    Anyway that's my thoughts, please flame away ;-)"

    -----------------

    I think you need to reclarify that statement.

    The majority of home computers on the martket, if not sold, are in fact cheap (compared to a mac anyway) windows boxes. Only the more affluent/supposedly knowledgeable/apple fans/"style concious" buy a Mac.

    So Home - Microsoft wins. Barring user error it works straight away, there is very low complexity for anyone with half a brain and it will do pretty much everything that the AVERAGE user needs.

  • Comment number 34.

    Nothing surprising at all. This is just normal business, if a tad abrasive. If his products were so far ahead of the competition, he'd not have been talking about them. The fact that he is, is just a macho way of acknowledging them. More like boxers do. Anyone in that position would probably react similarly, some more or less abrasively.

  • Comment number 35.

    ravenmorpheus2k - reclarification - I said best, I didn't base my comments on price but capability.

    Don't get me wrong Windows does work,but IMHO Apple provides a better user experience for the home user.

  • Comment number 36.

    "35. At 9:11pm on 19 Oct 2010, Sean wrote:

    ravenmorpheus2k - reclarification - I said best, I didn't base my comments on price but capability.

    Don't get me wrong Windows does work,but IMHO Apple provides a better user experience for the home user."

    ----------------------

    That's not what you said though.

    You can't say Apple wins in the home because the fact is that the majority of home computers are Windows boxes, therefore by having the majority share Microsoft wins in the home. Just because the Apple OS is better (in your opinion) doesn't mean it wins in the home if people don't buy it.

    And it is all down to pricing otherwise we'd all be using a Mac (well not for gaming we wouldn't but consoles have taken over that corner for the average gamer and Windows is there for the hardcore games (or those that play video games that you just cannot get on a console).

    In an ideal world where price and market share was not a concern then you could well be right but we don't live in an ideal world. ;-)

  • Comment number 37.

    Ok we can disagree over what win means in the context of this discussion but it doesn't change how the OS works. Let's call it Ford vs Mercedes (insert your favourite car here) and enjoy the fact that there are choices for all.

  • Comment number 38.

    I think Apple products are pretty, and iPods are great aside from horrible iTunes, but Mac using friends have to emulate Windows to make their Macs do anything useful. iPhone was a game changer but it is massively overpriced and rivals have long since caught up. The iTab remains a solution looking for a problem.

    These are fashion tech beloved by people who love pretty gadgets and sneered at by those of us who mentally tot up the price of the generic components inside the expensive pretty boxes.

    I think Steve's rant at Android, RIM and competing tablet producers show that his competitors are doing something right.

    Finally, so what that Android is fragmented, my wife's HTC Tattoo is running 1.6 whilst my Desire is running a cracked and customised version of 2.2, but they both make calls, they both have access to thousands of apps and they both work just fine. The fragmented nature of Android is a headache for app developers, not for users.

    Competition drives innovation.

  • Comment number 39.

    "37. At 10:06pm on 19 Oct 2010, Sean wrote:

    Ok we can disagree over what win means in the context of this discussion but it doesn't change how the OS works. Let's call it Ford vs Mercedes (insert your favourite car here) and enjoy the fact that there are choices for all. "

    ----------------

    Indeed we can.

    And even in an ideal world we could still debate how Windows can do some things better than the Apple OS.

    Each has it's fine points and also it's bad points, I'm fairly confident I could find several things wrong with the Apple OS if I looked.

    And just to be equal I could say the same about the open source OS's out there, i.e. Linux/Ubuntu.

    Shame Rory can't talk about them as often as Apple.

  • Comment number 40.

    Dammit! I really wasn't going to take the bait this time, but... here goes:)

    I resent the implication in many of the posts above that Apple only make products for your gran or your kids.
    I'm a designer, working on an 8 core 2.93 Ghz Mac Pro Desktop, with 12GB RAM, and a 30" screen. The vast majority of software I use is made by Adobe (which also work on PC). My clients want to know that the time they are paying for is spent actually designing, not fixing some bug, or downloading some stupid update all the time. And because Mac OSX works the moment I turn it on, I never (repeat NEVER) have to worry whether I'm going to spend my day earning money, or tinkering 'under the hood'. Yes, it all cost me a lot of money: but I recouped the expense within a couple of months, because I was able to get on with my work.

    But hey, if y'all wanna spend £399 on some piece of junk plastic just so you can fiddle around with it, then complain about how Apple users are "smug", go right ahead. As far as I'm concerned, I'm serious enough about my profession to take my tools seriously too. And you get what you pay for. Apple products are not for the "average" user at all: the average user buys an Acer laptop from PC World, and wonders why it breaks after a year...

  • Comment number 41.

    Apple products work, and after years of use...they still work! They also have a great resale value - go check ebay to see how much old macs are selling for. So to say they are expensive (in the long run) just isnt true. I sold a 2 yr old macbook for £600! Try and do that with your acer!

    How many people have recommended an acer etc etc laptop to you? Nobody! You will get 2 yrs use of it then its junk, and during those 2 yrs you will be dealing with problems, software updates and weird error messages which the average user shouldnt have to deal with. Seen it happen to many friends and colleagues.

    As for viruses, well after 4 years still no virus - i know this as i do indeed have a mac virus checker which my IT dept insisted i install as i connect to work server from home. Even with a virus checker PCs get infected.

    Mind you my mac did crash once upon a time, it froze for about 30 secs then a message came up to say it had crashed but the system had restored itself, then it was working again.

    but yeah - the lack of games is a bummer. agreed. thats what the PS3 is for.

  • Comment number 42.

    @40 - You're right of course. Both the PC and the Mac can and are used seriously. I have a big fat PC (probably same spec as your Mac actually) and an iMac and I use both in my development process. There is no way that the Mac is just for your granny or your Dad.

    What I will say though is my Dad (for example) finds life easier with a Mac, whereas I actually prefer Windows 7. I think that's the point people are making - OSX just seems easier to work with for none technical people. Everyone's different though. Me, I'll probably continue to use both.

    I still think Steve Jobs is going slightly mad though!

  • Comment number 43.

    "41. At 00:26am on 20 Oct 2010, cv76 wrote:

    Apple products work, and after years of use...they still work! They also have a great resale value - go check ebay to see how much old macs are selling for. So to say they are expensive (in the long run) just isnt true. I sold a 2 yr old macbook for £600! Try and do that with your acer!"

    --------------------------

    And if they don't work as they should Apple blame the consumers or claim it's a software bug that's been there forever. iPhone 4 is a prime example of that. So your statement there has a rather large hole in it, don't you think? You may pay premium prices for what you believe is a superior product, but for that premium price you don't get premium customer service do you?



    "41. At 00:26am on 20 Oct 2010, cv76 wrote:

    As for viruses, well after 4 years still no virus - i know this as i do indeed have a mac virus checker which my IT dept insisted i install as i connect to work server from home. Even with a virus checker PCs get infected."

    --------------------------

    Oh yes the old "we don't get viri" argument. Do you wnat to know why you don't get viri on Macs? It's because the Mac userbase is so small compared to Wndows based PC's that no-one bothers coding viri for them, the same goes for viri aimed at Linux distros.

    It's not worth the time/effort coding something that will have very little impact due to a relatively speaking small userbase when you can code something that will potentially do great damage to a far wider userbase.

    Why do Apple users fail to grasp these two points?

  • Comment number 44.

    "And if they don't work as they should Apple blame the consumers or claim it's a software bug that's been there forever."
    I take it you're referring to the iphone4 antenna debacle. I agree, not well handled initially, and possibly (one could argue) indicative of the company's attitude as a whole. However, it's not my experience. The one time I had an issue with a mac (slightly noisy fan on a G5 tower) Apple acknowledged the fault, engineered a solution, sent all owners of said model a new fan and assembly which fixed the problem completely free of charge with detailed instructions of how to install it. That's good customer service.
    As for the old security through obscurity argument, it doesn't wash. A userbase of 7-8%, virtually none of whom have any anti-virus software at all bar what comes as part of the OS, should be a pretty big target. How many windows users have NO third-party anti-virus software? I'd imagine less than that 7-8%. The fact that anything at system level requires an administrator password to install makes it much harder for virii to get in unseen. That's why you don't see infected macs.

    Ultimately, it depends on what you're using it for. My school music department have just installed a suite of iMacs, because for what we wanted them to do the macs were actually cheaper (primarily because we needed an equivalent to Garageband on the Windows side, which comes free on the mac) and they did the job significantly better. They're not for everyone though, and I must admit that despite Apple's insistence that MacOSX plays nice with windows servers, connectivity to the rest of the school network has still been a significant issue.

    As for Steve Jobs himself (lest we forget that's what this blog was about), he is your typical genius dictator - so long as he's right and you agree with him, things are great. As soon as he starts to go off the rails, those that rely on him are in trouble. Hopefully Apple will have the ability to spot when that time comes. I'd still take him as a leader over Ballmer any day.

  • Comment number 45.

    My comment (42) has been referred for further consideration - I can't think for the life of me what I might have said that upset anyone. The moderation on these forums is a precarious path to follow sometimes!

  • Comment number 46.

    Apple products work, and after years of use...they still work! They also have a great resale value - go check ebay to see how much old macs are selling for. So to say they are expensive (in the long run) just isnt true. I sold a 2 yr old macbook for £600! Try and do that with your acer!

    How many people have recommended an acer etc etc laptop to you? Nobody! You will get 2 yrs use of it then its junk, and during those 2 yrs you will be dealing with problems, software updates and weird error messages which the average user shouldnt have to deal with. Seen it happen to many friends and colleagues.

    ----

    You are being unfair comparing a 1000 EUR worth Macbook with 256MB GPU card, 13" screen, 2GB ram (Max), 250 GB disk, DVD-RW drive and dual core processor with a cheap notebook. what you should do is compare it with a PC notebook that costs 1000 EUR, has 17" screen, much newer i5 Core, 4GB ram (with upgdade option to 8GB), 1GB graphics card, plenty of plugins option/card reader, Blu-ray drive.

    Don't let me start to compare the 2000EUR macbook with 2000EUR PCnotebook. as they will blow it away. far away in term of hardware as well as software.

    this kind of notebook wont fall appart after 2 years (as they too have quality frames). and you will be able to sell it for 600 EUR as well after 2 years. but it is still way better (in hardware and has biggest possible software support) than macbook for the same price. so to conclude they are expencive for what they offer (hardware- and softwarewise).

    regarding viruses - a propper free antivirus and firewall solve the "problem".

    Macs are just fasionable. but they are also good for graphics station. and also for home users with money to spend that like to only surf the net.
    Games and such don't go with on mac. Consoles are technologiclly inferior to PC. it is logical. afterall they make games for consoles on a PC.

  • Comment number 47.

    @SuperG

    Speculation. Thought so.

    The only credible piece of research I've ever seen into what matters to smartphone customers is the JD Power customer satisfaction survey published last month. Interestingly 'coolness' doesn't make it to the list of things identified as important by the people they surveyed.

    Your assertion that people who choose iPhones do so only because they are cool is preposterous.

  • Comment number 48.

    Funny, I listened to the phone call Steve Jobs made, and never once heard him 'sounding off'. I heard him saying it like it is.

    @#43,

    "Do you wnat to know why you don't get viri on Macs? It's because the Mac userbase is so small compared to Wndows based PC's that no-one bothers coding viri for them, the same goes for viri aimed at Linux distros."

    Absolute hokum. OS X doesn't get viruses because it's secure. POSIX permissions, a simple, clean folder structure and most importantly no Registry means OS X is extremely hard to infect. So your tired old Windows fanboy myth simply doesn't ring true. And since Apple have now had their best ever quarter sales figures for Macs, you'd think Apple haters would be queuing up to create a virus - alas no joy, just crickets chirping and the sound of Windows PCs rebooting after yet another virus update/infection.

    It really does amaze me the amount of criticism aimed at Apple these days. They make great products - their sales figures prove that. Like Steve Jobs once said "we're just a bunch of guys who make the best products we can. If people like them, they'll buy them. If they don't, they won't."

  • Comment number 49.

    As usual we've got to the point of saying "my OS is better than yours" which we're never going to resolve here, but I think that (way back) the discussion started because Rory talked about Apple making a lot of money and how Steve had a rant at the competition.

    From what I can tell people think that the high sales are because either

    a) Apple are seen as 'cool' and so its just a fashion and after a while the sales will drop back down once everyone moves on to something else.

    b) Apple make products that are somehow 'better' than other people's and as more people become aware of this sales go up. If Apple can carry on making better products then they will keep selling more.

    To add to this people who believe (a) is true also think that Apple are dictorial and restrictive because they control the whole end to end system, and will not let anything in that they don't like.

    People who believe in (b) - like me - would say that it is because of this end to end control that you get a better integrated experience that meets the majority of what you want to do. Yes, there are things that I would like Apple to do that they don't but that's the price of stability and user exerience. If I want something that Apple doesn't offer, I tend to go for open source as it can move faster (and cheaper) than MS or Apple.

    BTW - I do agree that a lot of the sales are because of the 'cool' factor, but that's just the way things go.

  • Comment number 50.

    @Kampernaut

    "Speculation. Thought so." - So my reference points are poor and yours are spot on? You reference the JD Power Customer Satisfaction Survey but that doesn't show why people buy the phone, just their feelings when they use it. How can you be satisfied with something you don't own?

    Maybe you might like to read my post again where I advise you to search online and reference the Japanese example. Or maybe you can't be bothered because it doesn't match your jaded view of an Apple only world?

    So why do people buy iPhones?

    Is it because of the cutting edge tech and features? No, didn't think so. There are many phones out there that out perform the iPhone in a technical sense.

    Or is it the myth that "it just works"? My iPhone (and several friends phones) crashes all the time and the iPhone 4 antenna problem is a perfect example of how it doesn't "just work".

    You know it's a fashion accessory.

  • Comment number 51.

    @JimmyJammy
    It is more secure from the start. that's one of the reasons you can't run many applications (it is also restrictive). NT kernel is also very secure. remember that large portion of servers on Earth run it. problem is the GUI for the most part. and the person sitting behind the keyboard.

    Rootkits will still break through and also everything is hackable. These days demolishing system is not the aim of "virus", but rather to gather your information in a hidden way. this can be theoretically done even in linux with it's weekly security updates, as hacking kernel is not really necessary to get your e-banking password.

    If you would be using it for security reaosn only you would get same or better security using Linux or FreeBSD system. Heck i am not even sure anymore who is copying from who.

    I think many people think apple is easy and good to use because all their computers come with system preinstalled and also majority of needed applications. which is not true in MS world. but it is in linux. if you bought preconfigured linux computer experience would be/could be similar. though linux to me still has some other issues that plague all opensource software. they are just missing that polished professional touch.

    Also if oyu have antivirus you don't reboot on virus scare. antivirus will detect it and quarantine it. give you the option to remove it and then you move along. it will scan computer when it's idle. it iwll also scan files on plug in media or donwloaded from internet. this way you at least know if you get infected. in mac or linux and without any antivirus you feel invincible but actually are not.

    Funny this sentence:
    Like Steve Jobs once said "we're just a bunch of guys who make the best products we can. If people like them, they'll buy them. If they don't, they won't."

    If we take into acocuont that most people (95% of the world) don't buy them does that mean they also don't like them? Or is it just that they are overpriced.

  • Comment number 52.

    @gregor3000,

    After reading your post a couple of times, I'm still not sure what you're trying to say. A couple of points for you though:

    "it is also restrictive"

    In what way is OS X restrictive? Honestly, I'm sick and tired of people spouting this nonsense and not explaining themselves. Please be specific and tell us all what is so restrictive about OS X? What can't you do that makes OS X so restrictive?

    "NT kernel is also very secure. remember that large portion of servers on Earth run it. "

    NT Kernel is not very secure - an absolutely hilarious statement. Also, over 90% of the servers on earth run Linux or Unix, not Windows.

    "If you would be using it for security reaosn only you would get same or better security using Linux or FreeBSD"

    OS X is a variant of FreeBSD. In fact, if you boot up OS X in Single User Mode you will see 'Copyright, Berkeley Software Distribution'. So you're actually agreeing with me that OS X is secure, as it is built on FreeBSD.

    "they are just missing that polished professional touch."

    And there's the rub. Everyone always compares Apple products to products that are "just around the corner" or "wait till the next version". Fact is, Apple products are out there right now, and competitors seem to be stuck with their heads in the sand. So yeh, I'm sure the next version of Linux will be fantastic, but by then I'll be running OS XI.

    "If we take into acocuont that most people (95% of the world) don't buy them does that mean they also don't like them? Or is it just that they are overpriced."

    I'm guessing English isn't your first language, otherwise you'd be able to understand exactly what he is saying; it's not about percentages, it's not about money or about domination. They simply try their best every day, and enough people buy their stuff to provide them with an income and the ability to carry on. In fact, I really don't think there's a simpler way to say what he did. It's this philosophy that makes Apple so successful - not driven by money, but driven by a passion to create products people enjoy using.

  • Comment number 53.

  • Comment number 54.

    @#50 SuperG

    My point was that there is very little credible research into what motivates smartphone buying decisions and nothing to prove that tens of millions of consumers bought iPhones en-masse because they were cool. I don't doubt that coolness may be a factor for some but not everyone.

    Repeating your speculation doesn't make it the truth.

    "... your jaded view of an Apple only world"

    Don't have that actually. I don't subscribe to a technological religion of any kind.

    Nor do I need to make gross, disparaging generalisations about tens of millions of people who didn't make the same choice as me and sneer at them to feel comfortable with my own decisions. You seem to be one of the people on here that does. That's what I take issue with.

    You like an Android? Good for you. I'm sure you have perfectly good reasons. That doesn't make you a bad person nor does it make anyone else who chose Android bad either. In fact it doesn't really make you anything other than someone who exercised their own freedom of choice.

    I chose an iPhone the last three times because FOR ME it was the best choice at the time when I compared it to the other offerings. I never chose them as fashion accessories nor did coolness enter into the equation. Funnily enough nobody else I know chose their phones for those reasons either - iPhone or not.

    When I next come to choose I won't dismiss an Android option because they are only used by geeky tech heads who like to have to fiddle around, just don't "get it" about Apple and like to slag off Apple users - obviously not true. That would be just as stupid as discounting an iPhone option because people only buy them as fashion accessories - also obviously not true.








  • Comment number 55.

    @jr4412 #53,

    Quoting from a Microsoft Press Release dated 1999 does not provide any proof whatsoever!

    Please, try harder next time!

  • Comment number 56.

    Someone said it is a fanboy myth that macs don't get viruses because the userbase is small, it probably is.

    It is also a fanboy myth however that with a windows computer you spend all day installing updates and cleaning the viruses off the computer. I personally have never had a virus on computers I have used. That's because I'm not foolish enough to click on any random popup / email attachment that may come my way. I understand that many people do click on these but in that case a simple piece of anti virus software will prevent it (and I'm not talking about norton/mcafee here).

    Another myth is that its an amazing feature that "Macs just work", you know what. I just turn my computer on and, wow, it just works. Press the power button and 30 seconds later I can use it. Its not something incredible that Steve Jobs invented.

    Now personally I don't care what computer you use or how you use it but some of the statements being thrown around are kind of annoying.

  • Comment number 57.

    "During the question and answer session he first parried a query about Apple's bitter dispute with Adobe over the use of the Flash video streaming technology - "Flash memory? We love Flash memory" - then went on to claim that most video on the web was now in the HTML5 format anyway."

    You what? I had to laugh. Seems Mr. Jobs has decided Flash is obsolete so therefore it must be true.

    I like apple products, for what they are worth they are cool bits of kit (Except for the Ipad. Waste of time in my opinion, though I will say the same for any similar products out there whatever the company). Despite the narrow minded views and insistance they are innovators (They aren't, most of their innovations aren't really new things)they do make tech that works pretty well.

    Steve Jobs however quite often comes across as arrogant. I imagine this is what irks so many people and means they don't buy any apple products.

  • Comment number 58.

    @JimmyJammy
    In terms of just the kernal itself, the NT kernal is fine. The problems have been everything around it.
    Until Vista, anything could run as Admin, and so do damage to the OS. Since then however, Windows itself (with no other applications installed) is quite safe. Most problems come from Java, Flash, PDF exploits etc etc.

  • Comment number 59.

    JimmyJammy #55.

    "Quoting from a Microsoft Press Release dated 1999 does not provide any proof whatsoever!"

    you mentioned NT 4, it's not my fault that Windows NT 4 is 14 years old.

    "Please, try harder next time!"

    try google '"windows nt" c2 site:.gov', most all of the relevant documents are PDFs and cannot be linked here.

  • Comment number 60.

    Well it's no suprise there's lots of pro Apple vs anti Apple sentiment going on here, which has kind of sidetracked from the original blog.

    Have to say I agree with #26 Jedra.

    It seems that Jobs is losing the plot a bit. Rubbishing the opposition doesn't get you anywhere, and it seems that he is falling for his own hype. In this case he doesn't even seem to be managing to back up his claims properly.

    Apple have done very well in the past, and they have a loyal fan base - but Jobs really shouldn't assume they will follow him forever. They walk on a knifedge anyway, by telling customers what they want rather than asking the customers; this is dangerous tactics for any business model, and they have only succeeded with it so far because they (generally) put out well designed products.

    It seems that Jobs now not only wants to tell customers what they want, but also what they don't want. I think Jobs should be given a backseat if he's going down this route, Apple are lucky to maintain their market position and they're not going to stay they if they start moaning about the competition instead of concentrating on their own products.

  • Comment number 61.

    @jr4412 #59,

    "you mentioned NT 4, it's not my fault that Windows NT 4 is 14 years old."

    I didn't mention NT4, I mentioned NT in response to a comment from gregor3000.

  • Comment number 62.

    @JimmyJammy

    Restrictive in the sense you can not look into kernel, modify it, run it on anything you want (for example on a console) etc, etc...

    "Also, over 90% of the servers on earth run Linux or Unix, not Windows."
    Where did you get this data? MS has a share of about 35-36% in server area. in webserver area it is increasing it.

    "So you're actually agreeing with me that OS X is secure, as it is built on FreeBSD"

    yes i am agreeing with you. however, nothing is full proof and i am also agreeing that it would be less secure as soon as more users would be using it. Again kernel is also very good here. But it's not kernel these days that the bad guys want access to.

    Also despite the "dangers" of using windows i didn't have a virus there yet. i just hope it stays that way. once i got a rootkit though, but the issue was quickly solved. and these can/could do damage even to *nix based systems.

    Enjoy your Mac. You make Steve happy. ;-)

  • Comment number 63.

  • Comment number 64.

    JimmyJammy #61.

    "I didn't mention NT4, I mentioned NT in response to a comment from gregor3000."

    my mistake (NT 4 was the one to gain C2 certification), however, NT 4 was/is the one used in the 10% or so of servers you allowed as a worldwide share of the server OS market, and NT is even older (17 years).

  • Comment number 65.

    Usual boring stuff - however can't resist myth of mac invulnerability claims.

    The term 'Virus' is a distraction and only refers to a specific type of malware. When the iphone and ipad came out ther were web pages offering info on the products which could tell if you were mac or pc and uploaded the appropriate malware if you could be persuaded to click an innocent looking link. The difference is the windows community expects to be attacked and has the tools to protect themselves. The Mac community don't think they are and therefore are more vulnerable. At the end of the day, the user is the weakest link in the chain. At least my software has a reasonable chance of protecting me from my own stupidity. How does yours protect you?

    Intego report on Mac Malware 2009 contained the following links (see below)

    Check them out - If you still think the Mac is invulnerable then carry on as you are. Not as many bullets to dodge as Windows admittedly - but how many bullets do you need to hit you to do harm?



    1 http://blog.intego.com/2009/01/22/mac-trojan-horse-osxtrojaniservicesa-found-in-pirated-apple-iwork-09/
    2 http://blog.intego.com/2009/01/26/new-variant-of-mac-trojan-horse-iservices-found-in-pirated-adobe-photoshop-cs4/
    3 http://blog.intego.com/2009/03/17/new-rsplug-trojan-horse-variant-new-code-new-theater-of-operations/
    4 http://blog.intego.com/2009/06/19/new-rsplug-trojan-horse-variant-found-on-game-sites/
    5 http://blog.intego.com/2009/06/26/new-variant-of-rsplug-trojan-horse-rsplug-l/
    6 http://blog.intego.com/2009/07/02/new-variant-of-the-rsplug-trojan-horse/
    7 http://blog.intego.com/2009/07/21/new-version-of-rsplug-trojan-horse-masquerading-as-mac-os-x-crackkeygen/
    8 http://blog.intego.com/2009/03/12/new-variant-of-rsplug-trojan-hackers-taunt-intego-again/
    9 http://blog.intego.com/2009/04/29/intego-discovers-a-new-proof-of-concept-malware/
    10 http://blog.intego.com/2009/04/29/intego-discovers-a-new-proof-of-concept-malware/
    11 http://blog.intego.com/2009/10/29/loselose-is-it-a-game-is-it-malware-its-both/
    12 http://blog.intego.com/2009/02/12/apple-stays-at-the-top-of-operating-system-vulnerability-league-table/
    13 http://blog.intego.com/2009/01/13/critical-safari-rss-vulnerability-and-how-to-fix-it/
    14 http://blog.intego.com/2009/06/09/apple-releases-dozens-of-security-fixes-for-safari-4/
    15 http://blog.intego.com/2009/07/09/apple-updates-safari-with-security-fixes/
    16 http://blog.intego.com/2009/08/12/apple-plugs-six-holes-in-safari-update/
    17 http://blog.intego.com/2009/11/12/apple-updates-safari-includes-security-fixes/
    18 http://blog.intego.com/2009/02/24/acrobat-vulnerability-present-in-apples-preview/
    19 http://blog.intego.com/2009/03/12/itunes-81-ships-with-security-fix/
    20 http://blog.intego.com/2009/09/23/apple-updates-itunes-fixes-a-security-hole/
    21 http://blog.intego.com/2009/06/02/apple-updates-itunes-and-quicktime-security-fixes-included/
    22 http://blog.intego.com/2009/09/10/apple-issues-quicktime-security-update-for-tiger-and-leopard/
    23 http://blog.intego.com/2009/08/04/apple-issues-security-update-for-garage-band/
    24 http://blog.intego.com/2009/08/12/apple-issues-security-update-for-bind-dns-server/
    25 http://blog.intego.com/2009/09/15/apple-issues-security-update-for-xsan-file-system/
    26 http://blog.intego.com/2009/05/20/apple-hasnt-updated-java-to-protect-mac-users-from-critical-vulnerabilities/
    27 http://blog.intego.com/2009/06/16/apple-finally-updates-java-after-six-months/
    28 http://blog.intego.com/2009/04/17/mac-os-x-kernel-vulnerability-could-lead-to-dangerous-malware/
    29 http://blog.intego.com/2009/05/13/apples-patch-tuesday-mammoth-security-updates/
    30 http://blog.intego.com/2009/08/25/snow-leopard-contains-an-antivirus/
    31 http://blog.intego.com/2009/08/28/intego-virusbarrier-x5-compared-to-apples-mac-os-x-10-6-snow-leopard-anti-malware-function/
    32 http://blog.intego.com/2009/09/02/how-the-anti-malware-function-in-apples-snow-leopard-works/
    33 http://blog.intego.com/2009/08/06/apple-updates-mac-os-x-includes-security-fixes/
    34 http://blog.intego.com/2009/08/31/snow-leopard-ships-with-insecure-version-of-flash-player/
    35 http://blog.intego.com/2009/09/04/apple-releases-java-security-update-for-10-5/
    36 http://blog.intego.com/2009/09/11/apple-updates-snow-leopard-includes-security-fixes/
    37 http://blog.intego.com/2009/09/11/apple-releases-large-security-update-for-leopard/
    38 http://blog.intego.com/2009/09/22/1155/
    39 http://blog.intego.com/2009/11/10/apple-release-os-x-update-with-dozens-of-security-fixes/
    40 http://blog.intego.com/2009/12/04/apple-issues-updates-for-java-in-leopard-and-snow-leopard/
    41 http://blog.intego.com/2009/06/18/iphone-os-3-0-includes-more-than-40-security-fixes/
    42 http://blog.intego.com/2009/07/02/apple-scrambling-to-patch-sms-flaw-in-iphone/
    43 http://blog.intego.com/2009/08/01/apple-updates-iphone-for-sms-vulnerability/
    44 http://blog.intego.com/2009/07/02/jailbroken-iphones-are-weak-on-security/
    45 http://blog.intego.com/2009/07/30/apple-highlights-risks-of-jailbreaking-iphones/
    46 http://blog.intego.com/2009/09/10/iphone-and-ipod-touch-updates-contain-security-fixes/
    47 http://blog.intego.com/2009/09/10/apple-adds-safari-anti-phishing-feature-that-doesnt-work-to-iphone/
    48 http://blog.intego.com/2009/09/14/response-from-apple-regarding-iphone-anti-phishing-problem/
    49 http://blog.intego.com/2009/11/03/iphone-ransomware-dutch-hacker-exploits-jailbroken-iphone-bug-and-asks-for-money/
    50 http://blog.intego.com/2009/11/09/worm-affects-jailbroken-iphones-changes-wallpaper/
    51 http://blog.intego.com/2009/11/11/intego-security-memo-hacker-tool-copies-personal-info-from-iphones/
    52 http://blog.intego.com/2009/11/23/intego-security-memo-iphone-worm-creates-botnet-copies-personal-data/
    53 http://blog.intego.com/2009/12/15/zero-day-adobe-acrobat-and-reader-attacks-in-the-wild/
    54 http://blog.intego.com/2009/02/09/hp-printers-open-to-unauthorized-access-security-fix-available/
    55 http://blog.intego.com/2009/02/12/mobileme-users-beware-phishers-are-targeting-you/
    56 http://blog.intego.com/2009/03/19/hacker-contest-mac-hacked-in-10-seconds/

  • Comment number 66.

    @28 (RedLinuxHacker): I think you need to consider what is meant by an Open System. It is not the same as Open Source.
    An Open System is something which uses standard (publicised) interfaces. PCs are good examples of Open Systems as they do have publicised standards for the interfaces, and Windows itself is an Open System because it too has publicised interfaces which allow anyone to use them.
    Of course, allowing the Open System flexibility so that anything can use an interface also brings issues because of the extra complexity. A Closed System can inplement an interface which just connects in a specific way simplifying the design and reducing the issues. I.e. with an Open System you need to consider who anyone might use the interface but with a Closed System you only need to consider how you will use it.
    So what Mr Jobs is saying is that he thinks the way Apple restrict what can be done with Apple systems is better than allowing anyone to do what they like as with Windows and Android.
    However, Closed Systems also promote profitability. Open Systems let market forces determine the price of components whereas Closed Systems let the few profit from the lack of choice. this is why Open Systems are really preferable in my view.
    All that said, Apple systems aren't completely closed and Windows isn't completely open, and it's rather disingenuous for anyone to try to compare systems in this way. :)

  • Comment number 67.

    Yet another pointless discussion rehashing old tired arguments about Windows security, Linux useability & Mac invulnerability.

  • Comment number 68.

    @Kampernaut

    "Nor do I need to make gross, disparaging generalisations about tens of millions of people who didn't make the same choice as me and sneer at them to feel comfortable with my own decisions. You seem to be one of the people on here that does. That's what I take issue with."

    Clearly you missed the part where I said I own an iPhone 3GS. So with that in mind your assumptions that I'm some kind of anti-Apple pro-Android fanboy are moot. You really should read the posts you are replying to before you go off on a rant.

    How's that smug feeling of post rant satisfaction working out for you? Good?

  • Comment number 69.

    #40 Graphis
    "...blah blah blah...£399 on some piece of junk plastic just so you can fiddle around with it...blah blah..."
    You're bonkers - comparing something that costs a heap of cash to £399 rubbish system! My system was built considerably cheaper than top of the range mac (at the time) and was comparable to it (in some areas it bettered it, in others the mac had the advantage, overall power wise they were basically equal), only mine cost a lot less. I dare say when I want to replace some hardware it'll be easier too.

    FYI I use the entire Adobe software suite - it's great software and it works... one thing you'll never find me doing though is fiddling around with the PC to make it work... it works even though I often go more than two weeks without a full reboot (letting the machine hibernate is just easier - I'm back up and running with all programs and files in the time it takes to enter my password). Your comment was no more sensible than the majority of biased nonsense on here, but your stupid comparison annoyed me.

  • Comment number 70.

    @#52 Jimmyjammy
    "...it's not about percentages, it's not about money or about domination. They simply try their best every day, and enough people buy their stuff to provide them with an income and the ability to carry on. In fact, I really don't think there's a simpler way to say what he did. It's this philosophy that makes Apple so successful - not driven by money, but driven by a passion to create products people enjoy using."

    Oh dear...you think Apple's approach is not about the money or to be dominating...please, I haven't heard so much laughable rubbish. Sure they have a passion to create great products but to say they are not driven to make money does not make business sense. As for not wanting to be dominant again is very bizarre to say about a company like Apple. My advice is simply do your research before you spout such comments. Even if Steve Jobs said what you said he would be lying.

  • Comment number 71.

    The walls around Job's locked-in empire are crumbling. People are moving away from the locked in world of iTunes/iPhone/Quicktime to more open alternatives like Android.

    iPhone4 is nothing special when put up against mid-high range HTC Android phones like the Legend and Desire or the Samsung Galaxy S, or the Motorola handsets.

    A iPhone owning friend was surprised to find that the movies he was taking on his iPhone and sending to everyone did not work on anything but an Apple product, because it was encoded in MOV/Quicktime, which is an Apple format. I explained to him how it worked, that iPhone ownership is like a virus, as people have to download Quicktime to view his videos, and guess what, iTunes is forced upon people trying to download Quicktime.... It's all BS. One big Trojanhorse empire that's coming to an end, as people wake up to more open and better alternatives.

  • Comment number 72.

    I'm a Mac user, and.... *yaaaaawn*.

    Please move along, and use your OS of preference. Thank you.

  • Comment number 73.

    Anyone that follow Rory on twitter will have seen this from him a few hours ago:

    installed FaceTime on my mac but it seems to have grabbed very old version of my contacts...and impossible to add new ones

    Which seems to me to be a typical Apple experience - it 'just works', unless it doesn't. And then you're stuffed with no way to fix it.

  • Comment number 74.

    @71 "A iPhone owning friend was surprised to find that the movies he was taking on his iPhone and sending to everyone did not work on anything but an Apple product, because it was encoded in MOV/Quicktime, which is an Apple format. I explained to him how it worked, that iPhone ownership is like a virus, as people have to download Quicktime to view his videos, and guess what, iTunes is forced upon people trying to download Quicktime.... It's all BS. One big Trojanhorse empire that's coming to an end, as people wake up to more open and better alternatives."

    You can install Quicktime perfectly well without iTunes. In any case, I'm unclear how this is different from WMV, which is the proprietary Windows equivalent, or even Silverlight or Acrobat. In all cases you have to download the software to interpret the file for you. That's how it works, and until humans evolve the ability to interpret digital files directly without a computer "middle-man", how it must work.

  • Comment number 75.

    @73

    Beta software is called such for a reason. Apple doesn't pretend for a second that everything is meant to be working yet in Facetime beta for mac.

  • Comment number 76.

    @Charlesbr,

    "Sure they have a passion to create great products but to say they are not driven to make money does not make business sense."

    But the fact is they aren't driven to make money! You really are showing you are a narrow minded individual - as Apple have said on many occasions, the money arrives AFTER the products have been designed. Money is a happy by-product of creating items that people enjoy and will buy.

    You know, Apple are a unique company. They really don't believe money is everything and you can see that from the people that are at the top - Steve Jobs, Jonathan Ive, Phil Schiller...

    I'm glad you don't run Apple or have anything to do with them - we'd have another Microsoft on our hands - driven by money, not passion.

    "My advice is simply do your research before you spout such comments."

    I have done research my short-sighted chum, been a Mac user since 1990, worked for Apple 1998-2005 and am still involved in dealing with Apple almost daily. So maybe you should do some fact finding before YOU post anything in future.

    "Even if Steve Jobs said what you said he would be lying."

    Actually, Steve Jobs has said what I have written, many times. How do I know this? It's called research - something you accussed me of not doing, but it's clear you haven't done anything?

  • Comment number 77.

    @#76 - Jimmyjammy

    "I have done research my short-sighted chum, been a Mac user since 1990, worked for Apple 1998-2005 and am still involved in dealing with Apple almost daily. So maybe you should do some fact finding before YOU post anything in future."

    Says it all really.


    Most people including myself are tired of seeing such Apple clap trap talk that comes from fanboys like your good self. Your probably better off spending time here: http://discussions.apple.com/index.jspa

    Have a nice day :)

  • Comment number 78.

    "Most people including myself are tired of seeing such Apple clap trap talk that comes from fanboys like your good self."

    Ahhhh, I see. I provide some positive, researched comments, you come back with the childish "fanboy" hokum. Most people I know get tired of pessimistic comments by people like yourself who have a myopic blind hatred of a company that makes great products, and then when they cannot debate they resort to name calling. Class.

    One final point: why would I want to go to the Apple Support Discussions? That's a very strange closing comment Charles.

    Have a nice day too, make sure you read up on facts before you post anywhere else, save yourself further embarrassment.

  • Comment number 79.

    I think that ultimately it's down to personal choice. For some, Apple products will be the better option. Certainly they tend to be easier to use and understand. However to achieve this degree of simplicity they naturally sacrifice a degree of user control and power. Open source systems like Android offer more control and power to the user, but the price for this is more complexity - if you want to employ the freedom of the system.

  • Comment number 80.

    @Thomas

    Open source systems do not "offer more control and power to the user". However, open platforms do.
    There is a difference.
    Windows isn't open source, yet its quite an open platform, and you can do pretty much anything with a windows system including totally replacing its GUI.

  • Comment number 81.

    WelshBluebird1 #80.

    "Windows isn't open source, yet its quite an open platform, and you can do pretty much anything with a windows system including totally replacing its GUI."

    and how many Windoze users replace their GUI? (have you tried it?). many Linux systems otoh allow you to select from a number of GUIs, and to change between them without even needing to reboot the box.

    Windoze is "an open platform" only in the sense that you (the user) are free to add third-party s/wares, and certainly not in sense that you can modify its inner workings.

  • Comment number 82.

    69. At 6:32pm on 20 Oct 2010, mike77 wrote:
    #40 Graphis
    "...blah blah blah...£399 on some piece of junk plastic just so you can fiddle around with it...blah blah..."
    You're bonkers - comparing something that costs a heap of cash to £399 rubbish system!
    ----------------

    Oh, I'd happily admit to being bonkers:) But that wasn't actually the sense of my post, if you read it carefully: I wasn't comparing the machines, I was comparing the users. My post was in response to previous posts that suggested that Macs were "only for grans and kids", and "the average user". I was merely pointing out that "the average user" is the one who buys the low-end product, while it's usually the professional who buys the high-end product. This applies regardless of operating system.

    You say your "comparable" machine was built, as opposed to purchased: presumably by yourself? Then you go on to say that sometimes you can go for TWO WHOLE WEEKS without having to completely reboot! LOL. I really don't need to add anything to that, do I? Good luck with your Heath-Robinson 2.0... Personally, my data is too valuable to risk its care to a home-made system.

    I've only ever had one serious problem with a Mac, in over 15 years of using them. In that instance, it was a fried motherboard. Apple replaced the entire machine completely free of charge, with one at a greater spec, better graphics card, and threw in 2GB of extra RAM and some other goodies, totalling a value of £600 more than my original spend. They transferred all of my data across too, and delivered it to my door. All this with regular phone-calls to keep me informed of service progress. Probably my best customer service experience from any company ever. Who will you get your customer service from, if something similar happens to you?

  • Comment number 83.

  • Comment number 84.

    Yes, Laurence @ 66, I know the difference between the terms open system and open source. The open system definition came about during the period that there was a need for a single Unix specification. It could be argued that this definition has been superseded by the open source definition that accompanies GNU/Linux. Yes, there are publicised Windows APIs, and there are some that are not. Does this make Windows open or not? Even you aren't sure since you managed to contradict yourself in your post @ 66. It may be possible to conclude that none of Apple, Microsoft or Android are completely open.

    Regardless of any nit-picking over terminology, the point is that Apple (and Microsoft) charge for a proprietary software licence and then restrict what you can do with the software. If the customer is happy with that then fine. What bugs me is the arrogance of Apple and Microsoft. In particular Steve Jobs, who seems to be saying "just consume our products and shut up". All that these people are interested in is loyal customers and profit, and if that fails then locked-in customers and profit. Their desire for profit comes first and foremost.

    Now, if this profit motive comes at the expense of 'open' systems, interoperability, standards, free software and all the things that are good for the software industry and consumers, then I will continue to argue against companies like Apple and Microsoft.

  • Comment number 85.

    I can't understand why Steve Jobs is attacking his competition like this. He's so above this. It makes him look a little insecure and petty, if you ask me.

 

BBC iD

Sign in

BBC navigation

BBC © 2014 The BBC is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.

This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.