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White House emboldened by Egypt bloodshed

Mark Mardell | 03:52 UK time, Thursday, 3 February 2011

Amid the violence on the streets of Cairo one pro-Mubarak demonstrator holds aloft a hand made sign reading "Shut up Obama".

But the disorder on the streets has only sharpened the Obama's administration appetite for a confrontation. ABC says Obama is "very concerned" that President Hosni Mubarak is delaying. The Wall Street Journal says the White House has a new plan for a speedy transfer of power. The New York Times says the CIA is war-gaming how that will play in the region.

However you put it, it amounts to one thing. The White House, as much as the pro-democracy protesters, is demanding "Mubarak must go".

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has telephoned the new vice-president and intelligence chief of two decades, Omar Suleiman, to tell him immediately to seize the opportunity for a transition to a more democratic society. That transition must start now. She said that the violence was shocking and told him that they must investigate the violence and hold those responsible accountable.

You might have thought that after all their initial pussyfooting caution, the bloodshed might have given the Obama administration second thoughts about whether it was wise to back the protesters and scorn Mubarak's promise to go in September. Not a bit of it. If anything it has emboldened it to be more open about its wishes and made it more determined to winkle him out.

Others have joined the fray. Shortly after a very rare meeting with the US president, former Republican presidential candidate John McCain issued a statement:

"The rapidly deteriorating situation in Egypt leads me to the conclusion that President Mubarak needs to step down and relinquish power. It is clear that the only institution in Egypt that can restore order is the army, but I fear that for it to do so on behalf of a government led by or involving President Mubarak would only escalate the violence and compromise the army's legitimacy."

A Western diplomat tells me that their best intelligence suggests that secret police were among those causing the violence and that it was almost certainly orchestrated by those very close to Mubarak. He saw it as a last desperate throw of the dice by a leader who is badly misreading the public mood.

There are frantic conversations taking place between Washington and Cairo. We can't know the details but surely the main players are being urged to action. What happens on the streets is very important. It colours the outcome and may decide it. But short of bloody revolution, only the army and those in Mubarak's inner circle can force him to go.

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  • 1. At 04:41am on 03 Feb 2011, JClarkson wrote:

    "But short of bloody revolution, only the army and those in Mubarak's inner circle can force him to go."

    Exactly. Not Obama. Obama can act concerned.

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  • 2. At 04:49am on 03 Feb 2011, Interestedforeigner wrote:

    The end of any support for Mubarak came the instant the violence started. Nobody is going to believe it wasn't authorized by the existing regime.

    President Obama is rock solid on civil rights. Strongest defender of civil rights in American history ever to occupy the Oval Office. An attack on peaceful protesters would have crystallized his position in a heartbeat. Wrong man to cross on that subject.

    John McCain is, once again, serving his country loyally and well by telling Mubarak that the Republicans - or at least as many as needed - are going to support President Obama, and that on this issue at least, politics stops at the water's edge. If Mubarak thinks his old friends in the Republican party are going to rescue him, that balloon was just punctured.

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  • 3. At 05:38am on 03 Feb 2011, JClarkson wrote:

    #2

    "Strongest defender of civil rights in American history ever to occupy the Oval Office."


    Obama > Lincoln


    Obama > Johnson


    Obama > Jesus

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  • 4. At 05:52am on 03 Feb 2011, KScurmudgeon wrote:

    I think we win. To our 65 year vision of free democratic nations in the Middle East, a generation has arisen over there that sees it our way. This time is right, and ripe finally, to go to the West and join the free world.

    At least they want to.

    Now watch for two, or three things to happen.

    First, we may not like them as much as we thought we would. They may be, well, Muslim. Surprising elements of their ancient culture will survive, as they have in Turkey for example; we don't know what. That prayer meeting on Tuesday was something to see. They may not like us as much as we expected they would. We haven't exactly built a relationship with the man in the street in the last 150 or 200 years, now have we? Nor with their leadership classes either. Are we ready, yet, to see them as free nationalists, free to chart their own way and ignore or get right in the face of arrogant know-it-alls like us, the French, The British?
    So they may see it in their interests to pursue their own interests, as they see them. I can't think of anything more likely to throw them into the arms of the Chinese, the Russians, or the Iranians (should they hold out for long), than a full court press from The EU / USA.

    Second, as we have seen too often lately, this may be a false spring. Eastern Europe thought that all their problems would melt away with the withdrawal of Communism - but their economies did not blossom, the brotherhood of revolution turned into the bitterness of partisan hatred, and the bear still prowls nearby. Come to think of it some southern European countries who thought they had inherited a post-industrial plenty now know the heavy weight of eating one's fill while still in a dream state.
    That would be a pity, now - this is, I think, a once in a millennium opportunity for them (and for us).

    Finally, autocrats don't generally give up and just go away. They cling to power - they fight for it with other people's blood, blood that is cheap for them to spend. They lie. They smile and say all the right things all the while taking off the heads of all who give a hint of disloyalty. A pile of heads is a real treasure, it frightens the people so. This may yet just go away, leaving only a hangover, a multitude of corpses, and bitterness among nations that should have been friends.

    One thing was encouraging in the last couple of days: the statement that the Egyptians as well as the Tunisians, were different than before. They were no longer slaves, but knew what it was to be free.

    But I think the President's caution was very wise. This can only be done by the Egyptians themselves. If they survive and hold on into free institutions they will have a great victory. If they cannot, no one else can give that to them. It would be only a cruel joke.


    A curmudgeons opinion from Kansas - from a third of the world away





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  • 5. At 08:10am on 03 Feb 2011, silverscorpio wrote:

    I think the US made a very big diplomatic mistake in this situation that is forcing them into a certian direction. They should have remained neutral and gave a statement that change must be made and that they would gladly work with any governmet that is formed as a result of the protest. They should not have condemed Mubarak the way that they did. It is not for the US to decide who governs Egypt. If they remained neutral, they probably would have had an ally despite who formed a government. Because the US picked a side, they have lost Mubarak as an Ally. He has to be removed in order for the US to still have Egypt as an Ally in the Middle East. A person must also remeber that we do not know what is going on behind the scenes, and that the US might be acting on classified information that justifies their action. But as it stands now, it seems like a bad move on the part of the US.

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  • 6. At 08:23am on 03 Feb 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    Excellent stuff from KCS....but my sister in California suggests that American democracy/culture is struggling to impose it`s egalitarian wishes upon the patriarchal attitudes of the Mexicans who surround her in increasing numbers down in Long Beach....so let`s remember that Flower Power didn`t exactly invade and transform the US military industrial complex!

    President Obama may be "rock solid on human rights" (as IF suggests) but what does that mean? Americans are great with rhetoric but may be learning what a lot of poor Americans have always known....that the fine words evaporate into nothing as the votes are counted and it`s business as usual in the political bubble!

    Would it be too radical to suggest that before we try to sell any more democratic ideas to other nations we might road test and refine our own democracies a bit more?

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  • 7. At 08:39am on 03 Feb 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    Can I also beg the CIA and George Soros to give us the preliminary findings on their attempts to spread democracy into the fringes of their European Union experiment?

    No I am not being smart....but I do believe we must become far more open and honest about why democracy is being selectively evangelised into traditional cultures.

    Would it be too cynical to wonder if it`s presently turning out to be just a vehicle for imposing the power of global capitalists and organised criminals (i.e. the other USA)...and their appointees among the traditionally powerful families and groups in those societies?

    Or has spreading the Roma people through Western Europe been achieved as a preliminary to setting up the sort of tensions that built up in Central Europe in the last century. Haven`t we had enough genocide?

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  • 8. At 08:55am on 03 Feb 2011, JohnnyToon wrote:

    #3

    Obama > Jesus

    I didnt know Jesus was American, let alone a President!

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  • 11. At 09:05am on 03 Feb 2011, D wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 12. At 09:09am on 03 Feb 2011, U14773164 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 13. At 09:17am on 03 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    former Republican presidential candidate John McCain issued a statement:

    "The rapidly deteriorating situation in Egypt leads me to the conclusion that President Mubarak needs to step down and relinquish power. It is clear that the only institution in Egypt that can restore order is the army, but I fear that for it to do so on behalf of a government led by or involving President Mubarak would only escalate the violence and compromise the army's legitimacy."




    I strongly suspect that the Egyptian Army, subsidized by several Barack's precedessors) will not prop Mubarak, although it might move to stop assorted thieves, robbers etc., from taking an advantage of the chaos in Cairo's streets.

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  • 14. At 09:19am on 03 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    JMay wrote:
    #2

    "Strongest defender of civil rights in American history ever to occupy the Oval Office."


    Obama > Lincoln


    Obama > Johnson







    And may I add, the strongest protector of U.S. national security:


    Obama > Reagan

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  • 15. At 09:21am on 03 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    JohnnyToon wrote:
    #3

    Obama > Jesus

    I didnt know Jesus was American, let alone a President!






    You're free to replace it with

    Obama > Allah.

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  • 16. At 09:26am on 03 Feb 2011, U14773164 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 17. At 09:26am on 03 Feb 2011, U14773164 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 18. At 09:27am on 03 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    "....but my sister in California suggests that American democracy/culture is struggling to impose it`s egalitarian wishes upon the patriarchal attitudes of the Mexicans who surround her in increasing numbers down in Long Beach....so let`s remember that Flower Power didn`t exactly invade and transform the US military industrial complex!"







    whereas a cousin of my mother-in-law (another expert in ME affairs)
    suggests this blog is not a parking place for failed stand-up comedians.




    P.S. I remember stoned Flower Power peaceniks spitting on American GIs returning from Vietnam.

    As well as Hanoi Jane (a spiritual daughter of the notorious Tokyo Rose).

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  • 19. At 09:28am on 03 Feb 2011, Yednekachew Mekonnen wrote:

    I don't like Obama's reluctant response to this unrest. He should act strongly not in fever of Egyptians or Mubarak, but for the sake of Democracy!

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  • 20. At 09:39am on 03 Feb 2011, Steve Brammer wrote:

    #7 @worcesterjim said "Can I also beg the CIA and George Soros to give us the preliminary findings on their attempts to spread democracy into the fringes of their European Union experiment?"

    They will be available via WikiLeaks shortly :-)

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  • 21. At 09:43am on 03 Feb 2011, Dan wrote:

    For those who think that Egypt will end up in the hands of extremists, hopefully this will make you think otherwise - http://www.myweku.com/2011/02/photo-of-the-week-christians-protecting-muslims-during-their-prayers-in-egypt/

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  • 22. At 10:34am on 03 Feb 2011, Chryses wrote:

    Assuming that events in this Egyptian political power struggle play out as they have developed so far, and that is still a big if, there seems to be a good chance that another country will be added to the list of those run as a democracy.

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  • 23. At 10:35am on 03 Feb 2011, Fortress Lamex wrote:

    It's annoying how when America has a madman helm at the helm they have no qualms about getting physically involved in foreign internal issues however when there is a decent, moral, level headed bloke in the white house the U.S. just sit on the sidelines hopen to jump on the next bandwagon.

    For a super power america is not doing anywhere near enough yet.

    and dogbert.... that picture was heartwarming, kinda renews my faith in humanity :)

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  • 24. At 10:39am on 03 Feb 2011, Ad wrote:

    19

    I agree that Obama has been apparently moving slowly, but we may be underestimating what has been going on behind the scenes. One BBC correspondent with inside info reported that 'the wires are buzzing' between Washington and Cairo. The Egyptian Army, bankrolled by the USA, has played its cards close to its chest rather as its paymasters have, but we may be confident now that the Army will fully support a peaceful transfer of power to the democratic movement(s).

    One point worth bearing in mind, is that no clear leader has as yet stepped into the limelight. Maybe this isn't a problem: the anti-Mubarak movement is a genuine street-level surge of popular opposition the like of which has never been seen in Egypt. It would be a good thing now to see a popular, strong figurehead emerge from all this who can command the respect of both sides of the uprising (secular and islamist). Were such a person not to emerge, I rather fear the danger of endless in-fighting between the factions, analogous to the Sunni-Shiite-Kurdish mess in Iraq. It is vital for Egypt to come out of this a strong, peaceful nation, able to (1) impose a benign influence on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict (2) guarantee the security of the Suez Canal (3) serve as a beacon to other Middle Eastern states whose peoples grope towards some form of non-dictatorial government.

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  • 25. At 10:43am on 03 Feb 2011, hismastersvoice wrote:

    The longer the US, UK and EU sat on the sidelines 'urging restraint' and 'an orderly transition of power' the more the anti- Mubarak camp would become radicalised, believing that the US, UK and EU were effectively sanctioning a widely dislked regime.

    People also seem to be discounting the influence of Israel in current developments. Israel's sole concerns are Egypt's recognition of the peace treaty and diplomatic relations so that it does not need to turn its attention to securing it's western borders. Therefore, the US has no choice but to toughen its language, for fear that Israel would provide support to the pro-Mubarak camp, which were it to be uncovered would cause havoc for the middle east.

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  • 26. At 11:14am on 03 Feb 2011, ontheup wrote:

    america does not give a hoot about egypt or any other country in the region, this is about keeping a pro western government in to protect their naughty pit bull terrier namely isreal because if a fundementalist state is formed in egypt then isreal is surrounded and then they would be forced to solve the palestinian issue and stop treating the palestinians like animals

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  • 27. At 11:17am on 03 Feb 2011, Big_Dig wrote:

    @powermeerkat, comment #18:

    "P.S. I remember stoned Flower Power peaceniks spitting on American GIs returning from Vietnam."

    No, you don't. You remember a line from Rambo that has become a favorite right-wing myth:

    http://www.slate.com/id/1005224/

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  • 28. At 11:18am on 03 Feb 2011, peterjohndean wrote:

    Mubarak should step down immediately and as gracefully as possible. Otherwise all his little nest eggs may be addled.

    I hope Mark Mardell is right about the pressures coming from the White House, if that will stop further violence.

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  • 29. At 11:29am on 03 Feb 2011, muggwhump wrote:

    It is not only Egypt where we are seeing people taking to the streets in protest. All over the region there are demonstrations for change.
    Has the Middle East suddenly got the democracy bug? If so then giving them democracy will make it all better again.
    On the other hand if it is growing poverty, hunger due to rising food costs and joblessness that are fuelling the demonstrators calls for change then a change of government might not provide the fix the people want.
    Enormous amounts of liquidity have been pumped into the global economy in the past couple of years, to stave off deflation in countries like the US. All that money sloshing around the system looking for a home generally finds it's way to the stock market where it pushes up the price of commodities, priced in $s, which is what it is designed to do.
    Whatever happens in Egypt concerning it's leaders the conditions for the growing number of people living in poverty isn't going to change because the economic forces at work are global.
    That being the case, we are in for an interesting few years in that region.

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  • 30. At 11:42am on 03 Feb 2011, blefuscu wrote:

    ريّس

    Until one understands the concept of the Rais in the Arab world, the true significance of the events in Egypt will elude all western outsiders and goes some way to explain the bloody carnage on Cairo's streets.

    "Honour" is of enormous importance which is why the groups calling for Mubarack's instant dismissal and exile are seen very widely as traitors and westernised stooges.

    As the BBC's Martin Asser pointed out in 2006,

    "Mr Mubarak has won three elections unopposed since 1981, but last year for his fourth contest - after a firm push from the US - he changed the system to allow rival candidates.

    There is little doubt that Mr Mubarak probably does enjoy huge support in the Egyptian street. "

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  • 31. At 11:56am on 03 Feb 2011, Karl Ryan wrote:

    As a loyal Egyptian, who loves his Country and the Egyptian People above all else...

    Mubarak has shown himself as the Leader of Mobsters and Gangsters. This despicable act explains his 30 year leadership, and the main complaints of the Egyptian People.

    He cannot be trusted.

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  • 32. At 12:58pm on 03 Feb 2011, Amr wrote:

    i have to admit i was a little disappointed when i first read this article. then i realized i was not really doing my role of clarifying the truth of what's happening in Egypt properly.

    as in Egyptian, i really want peace to be restored and i'm really agonized to see what is happening in front of my eyes. However, the way things look could be a little misleading.

    The truth is, most Egyptians trust and want the President Hosni Mubarak to keep the peace and help Egypt in this time of peril. the group that went out protesting do not represent the whole Egyptian people.
    I'm also both disappointed and surprised that they used the wounds of their brethren in this twisted political way to get international support.

    But, if President Hosni Mubarak resigns now, things will only get much worse. The Egyptian people will never accept the fact that they were deceived by some twisted political scheme. as an Egyptian, I plead the American President and the American society to be more understanding of the suffering of my people and not jump to conclusions based on what things seem like.

    i'm very concerned that we will be thrown into a state of chaos if what the protesters wanted came true. Afterall, we do not have any other alternative leader that all the people accept at this moment. when it comes to new leadership everyone including me see Mr. El-Baradei incompetent when it comes to politics since he caused Egyptian people to go against one another.

    if help is not intended, then let the Egyptians decide their destiny on their own. We do not accept any interference that we, as Egyptians, think it may only lead to further suffering and chaos for us.

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  • 33. At 1:10pm on 03 Feb 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    29 Well observed muggwhump...you get down to very important underlying bedrock there!
    31 Karl I hate to be a revolution pooper at this crucial moment but there are real people with real families and real lives out there..... and this is not the 4th July....or a game of Monopoly or snakes and ladders.

    Millions of people have had their lives ruined by Britain and the USA`s fantasies about the ideal form of government being democracy..... and thousands of initially well intentioned people have had to roll up their sleeves and do cruel cynical dishonest and hypocritical things just to keep the rest of us living in our Cloud Cuckoo Land world.

    My guess is that the suddenly inconvenient Mubarak was once as idealistic and well-intentioned as the naive people calling for democracy in the streets below him....and it takes little imagination to realise where the pressure came from for him to change and behave brutally towards his own people.

    But it`s taken the west a very long time to cotton on to his regimes brutality....so what took us so long?

    Do I have to spell it out .....or will you grow up and take charge of the disagreeable truth yourself?

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  • 34. At 1:25pm on 03 Feb 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    32 Amr

    Good to hear from you and you make a lot of sense to me at an intuitive level as a British person who has watched my nation`s fall from being an imperial power to a sad little puppet of the USA.

    Was our fall from grace a bad thing? NO!

    It was salutary and deeply informative for those of us with the wisdom to see the pitfalls of our own arrogance and folly and our self deceiving ways.

    Obama can become a world statesman if he has the courage to admit why Mubarak stayed in power so long...and to save Mubarak and his friends and the Egyptian people from dreadful social turmoil by staging a GRADUAL and ORDERLY transfer of power...IF THE EGYPTIAN PEOPLE REALLY WANT THAT!

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  • 36. At 1:55pm on 03 Feb 2011, Stefan Stackhouse wrote:

    If the Mubarak "supporters" had merely held a rally on the periphery, saying that his proposal to not seek re-election was reasonable under the circumstances and that the demonstrators were causing too much damage to the economy and to ordinary people, I suspect that they would have gained considerable sympathy amongst the vast majority who have been hunkered down in their homes instead of out on the street. This would have taken a lot of wind out of the sails of the protestors. Instead, Mubarak overplayed his hand, and guaranteed an even larger and possibly more violent mass demonstration on Friday. Mubarak may have just managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

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  • 38. At 2:32pm on 03 Feb 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    36 Stefan....that`s a fair question ...but the way Britain and later the USA controlled Egypt involved some Egyptians doing cruel things to other Egyptians.

    We really do have to climb down from the moral high ground and make a clean breast of our underhand and hypocritical ways if Egypt is ever to become the democracy we claim to want it to be.

    Confession may not only be good for us... but the beginning of a truly democratic world.

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  • 39. At 2:43pm on 03 Feb 2011, Amr wrote:

    34 worcesterjim
    i'm glad to find a response. Egyptians are somewhat direct in their nature of dealing with problems and what happened yesterday was a result of continuous frustration and anger that accumulated in the past days.
    this may be irrelevant, but when the whole thing started, in 25th of January, i kept thinking of Thomas Cromwell. i was afraid that history will repeat itself although it's in a different country.
    i totally agree with what you said. most, if not all, Egyptians knew this was going to happen one day and that we'll need to make political changes. Yes, we were going to face this problem one day, but.. it is just happening too soon and we're just forced into chaos without even a chance to choose what we really want.
    In the past days, i had all sorts of feelings. sorrow, melancholy, disbelief, anger, frustruation.. i had to keep reminding myself every now and then that this is not a movie and that it is what is happening in reality. what happened to my country? why do we have to go through this? who wants the Egyptians to suffer all this?
    i was disappointed by the lack of support from our neighor countries. the comment of the Libyan Leader was really nice and came in a very good timing. now it seems that everyone is turning their back to us.. we do not know what lies in wait for us tomorrow. there is no other political party that is powerful enough to be recognized by people as an alternative otpion. many political figures wanted to just climb over the shoudlers of those protesting to reach positions that they do not deserve. however, people found out the truth of all those politicans. now, all the Egyptians are concerned. we can no longer afford to continue in this chaos. the Egyptian President already did and he is still trying his best to deal with this situation.
    People want to regain peace and get back to their normal lives. we want to rebuild what we lost in the past days. we do not want to see any more blood in our streets. the price we paid is already too horrible

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  • 40. At 2:43pm on 03 Feb 2011, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #27
    Big_Dig wrote:
    @powermeerkat, comment #18:

    "P.S. I remember stoned Flower Power peaceniks spitting on American GIs returning from Vietnam."

    No, you don't. You remember a line from Rambo that has become a favorite right-wing myth:

    http://www.slate.com/id/1005224/

    __________

    You can get affirmative and negative in regard to the spitting. But why do you disregard the claims, when conservatives disregard John conyers claim they are called racists. Yet Conyers has been able to provide no proof other than his word

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  • 41. At 2:44pm on 03 Feb 2011, McJakome wrote:

    32. At 12:58pm on 03 Feb 2011, Amr wrote:

    "...if help is not intended, then let the Egyptians decide their destiny on their own. We do not accept any interference that we, as Egyptians, think it may only lead to further suffering and chaos for us."

    Whether this message comes from the Mubarak government or from the protesters, it probably reflects the thinking of the majority of nationalist Egyptians. It should not be lightly or cavalierly ignored.

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  • 42. At 3:05pm on 03 Feb 2011, Amr wrote:

    36 Stefan Stackhouse
    i wished President Mubarak would have made a comment much sooner. it was only yesterday that people began to really open their eyes. However, things developed just in a way that was too fast.
    although those who led the protests against President Mubarak may deny this, many of those who participated in the protests at the beginning were violent. they destroyed many police cars, stations, and public and private buildings. People were actually terrorized by them. even though most of them sought to make it a peaceful and civilised protest and they are Egyptians just like myself, this was not what happened at all. i do not really care that much who gets victory or defeat. i want my country to restore peace again. if people choose President Mubarak to continue then this is the choice of the the people that must be respected by all. this is what i want too. i want my people to be able to make their own choice
    i had many talks with people who want President Mubarak to leave yesterday and actually it seemed pointless. they did understand me, but they did not want to listen. Egypt is definitely not a single group who has a single opinion and it is normal that some may support or protest against the President. There is no way any person would be accepted by 100% of people all the time, isn't this true? There is no perfect President or Leader either. i totally understand and accept this. why then do things have to go in this manner? why people have to suffer this much?

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  • 43. At 3:19pm on 03 Feb 2011, strontiumdog wrote:

    re #37

    why would the BBC want to plagiarise racist proaganda??

    I guess every Egyptian death mask has been altered as well to fit your singular view of Africa

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  • 44. At 3:20pm on 03 Feb 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    41 Perhaps all the media (and other unintentional agent provocateurs) could begin by realising how much influence they have here...and portray the situation in a less polarised way?

    Riots make superb television... until you realise that your presence and the way you report them may contribute to the bloodshed you are witnessing!

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  • 45. At 3:21pm on 03 Feb 2011, BluesBerry wrote:

    White House emboldened by Egypt bloodshed?
    Yes, I would think so. It tells the White House there is a core
    - police force loyal to Mubarek
    - possibly CIA
    - possibly Mossad
    - possibly whatever else the Mubarek sympathesizers have turned up from under every undemocratic rock.
    Of course the disorder on the streets has sharpened the Obama's administration appetite for a confrontation because deep down in the heart of the White Administration there is a desire, a need, for Mubarek (maybe till Septmber) and Sulieman thereafter, ot maybe just Sulieman right now.
    Wall Street Journal says the White House has a new plan for a speedy transfer of power (from Mubarek to Sulieman, which is really no change at all. In fact, it is worse for any hope of democracy.)
    The New York Times says the CIA is war-gaming how that will play in the region. I'll bet on that. War-gaming in the war-room, planning how they will stop the Mubarek total ouster until Silieman is installed.
    It amonouts to one thing: "Mubarak must go", but Sulieman must take his place.
    US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has told Omar Suleiman to immediately seize the opportunity for a transition to a more democratic society. That transition must start now. Right, but Sulieman is worse than Mubarek, closer ties to the CIA and Mossad, more pro-American...unacceptable to the Eyptian People.
    Apparently, Clinton told Sulieman that he must investigate the violence and hold those responsible accountable, but that won't happen. Those responsible will simply slip back under whatever rock they came out from.
    The bloodshed gives Obama exactly what he wants - a reason to transition quickly - if not Mubarek, than Sulieman.
    A Western diplomat tells me that their best intelligence suggests that secret police (loyal, always loyal to Mubarek) were among those causing the violence and that it was almost certainly orchestrated by those very close to Mubarak (like the CIA and Mossad?). He saw it as a last desperate throw of the dice by a leader who IS READING the public mood, as well as the mood in Washington and Israel.
    But short of bloody revolution, only the army and those in Mubarak's inner circle can force him to go. You mean like Omar Sulieman?

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  • 46. At 3:23pm on 03 Feb 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    42 Excellent point Amr....our government wasn`t voted for by ANYONE...it`s a Frankenstein`s Monster cobbled together by ou political class!!

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  • 48. At 3:35pm on 03 Feb 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    Mardell wrote: The Wall Street Journal says the White House has a new plan for a speedy transfer of power. The White House, as much as the pro-democracy protesters, is demanding "Mubarak must go"
    --------
    Yeah, but shouldn't someone tell the White House its not up to us?

    SO why doesn't President Obama and the White House let Egypt make their own decisions?
    ---------
    Mardell wrote: A Western diplomat tells me that their best intelligence suggests that secret police were among those causing the violence and that it was almost certainly orchestrated by those very close to Mubarak. He saw it as a last desperate throw of the dice by a leader who is badly misreading the public mood.
    --------
    How do we know who is or who is not secret police when it is secret?

    Personally, I believe democracy is when everybody has a say...

    And to me, the pro-Mubarack protesters have every right to be there protesting peacefully just as much as the ones who are peacefully protesting against him...

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  • 49. At 3:40pm on 03 Feb 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    Its only six or seven months or so til' next election...

    So if Mubarack has said he will not run for next election, why can't President Obama and the protesters wait til' the election for a real democratic transition voted by the people?

    To me, they all want it "NOW, NOW, NOW!", well if you want a good leader, why would you want to rush into a potentially worse leader?

    Personally, I think the Egyptian protesters come off as a very impatient people if they can't wait a couple of months to vote in election...

    I don't like President Obama right now, but I have enough patience where i can at least wait the next election to vote...

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  • 50. At 3:42pm on 03 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Earlier PM Ahmed Shafiq apologised for the fighting, which killed eight and wounded hundreds.

    He pledged to investigate the violence, calling it a "disaster"."




    Yeah, sure.

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  • 51. At 3:43pm on 03 Feb 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    Mardell wrote: But short of bloody revolution, only the army and those in Mubarak's inner circle can force him to go.
    -----------
    The army does not want to go against the people, yet they also want to maintain order...

    Which is more important: one million protesters out of eighty million people (1/16th of population unhappy) or maintaining order for eighty million people?

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  • 52. At 3:48pm on 03 Feb 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    President Obama Admin are making all sorts of statements, but why should it be up to us?

    Why wouldn't this be up to Egypt and Egypt alone?

    If Mubarack resigns, what if a worse person is put in his place?

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  • 53. At 3:50pm on 03 Feb 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    47 wikkikki....what if you are wrong and have been taken in by a plausible story fed you by people who are using your kindness as a weapon to achieve ends that are nothing like you those you wish for?

    Nothing in our global capitalist world is ever entirely what it seems but remember you are making an accusation that may cost innocent people their lives .....and be grateful you can strut about on the moral high ground.....largely because a lot of other people can`t!

    Being an armchair revolutionary is dead easy ....because you don`t risk ending up dead!

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  • 54. At 4:01pm on 03 Feb 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    If wrote: President Obama is rock solid on civil rights. Strongest defender of civil rights in American history ever to occupy the Oval Office. An attack on peaceful protesters would have crystallized his position in a heartbeat.
    --------
    I had to laugh when I read this...come on, If, rock solid!

    If Obama was so rock solid, then why didn't he do anything about the Green Revolution in Iran to help them>?

    Remember Neda? Why didn't Obama try to help people like her?

    WHy does Obama not want to get involved with Iran's protesters, but now he wants to get involved with and is taking sides with Egypt's?

    Compare how Obama reacted to Iran's protesters with Egypt's protesters and I can't help but feel that President Obama is a hypocrite when it comes to human rights due to his ultraliberalism...

    And I am tired of USA getting involved in other coutnries affairs, I think President Obama should just stay out of it cause its not his country...

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  • 55. At 4:14pm on 03 Feb 2011, Amr wrote:

    48. At 3:35pm on 03 Feb 2011, LucyJ wrote:
    "And to me, the pro-Mubarack protesters have every right to be there protesting peacefully just as much as the ones who are peacefully protesting against him..."
    i totally agree. but, there is also a third group of people. Most people just want to go back to their normal lives and they don't care about politics at all. they were just forced to face the whole situation. they paid the worst price and they had to deal with all the consequences.
    i belonged to that last group, but now i'm trying to give everyone a fair chance although i don't really mind who will be chosen in the end. i just want the nonsense, the bloodshed and the opinion of some of the Egyptians here who want to force all people to choose a certain path to go away so that all Egyptians will return to their normal life.

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  • 56. At 4:21pm on 03 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 57. At 4:25pm on 03 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    And in the meanitme Obamscare's predicament in this allegedly North AMERICAN blog... ;-(

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  • 58. At 4:28pm on 03 Feb 2011, mscracker wrote:

    26. At 11:14am on 03 Feb 2011, everhopeful89 wrote:
    "america does not give a hoot about egypt or any other country in the region, this is about keeping a pro western government in to protect their naughty pit bull terrier namely isreal because if a fundementalist state is formed in egypt then isreal is surrounded and then they would be forced to solve the palestinian issue and stop treating the palestinians like animals"
    ********
    There are quite a few Americans who do not believe Mr. Obama is a great friend of Israel.
    And it seems odd to make a blanket statement re America not giving "a hoot" about Egypt or any other country."America" is comprised of American citizens who differ in their views & many are deeply concerned about issues outside of the States.

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  • 59. At 4:37pm on 03 Feb 2011, U14773164 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 60. At 4:46pm on 03 Feb 2011, Simon21 wrote:


    "But the disorder on the streets has only sharpened the Obama's administration appetite for a confrontation. ABC says Obama is "very concerned" that President Hosni Mubarak is delaying. The Wall Street Journal says the White House has a new plan for a speedy transfer of power. The New York Times says the CIA is war-gaming how that will play in the region."


    You have to hand it to the CIA. Billion dollar budgets, agents crawling everywhere, according to themselves, yet there is hardly a single crisis from Tianmen Square, 9/11, Iraq etc that they they have not either completely missed or misread.

    Now they are playing games, weeks after the protests started.

    These are the people apparently who claim to know intimately what is going on in Iran, China and NK etc.



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  • 61. At 4:49pm on 03 Feb 2011, Simon21 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 62. At 4:56pm on 03 Feb 2011, Amr wrote:

    47 wikikiki
    sorry i read this only now. no, i don't think this is true. just to make things clear, i've lived here all my life and i do care for my country. also, even if some of the police force are corrupted, it is not a reason at all to suggest that all police force are corrupted and in fact i find it even insulting saying something like this. many of them lost their lives protecting the country
    thirdly, people who started the whole thing did NOT protest peacefully. if you're here at this moment you'll realize that this is a big fat lie. i agree that many of them wished that it would be peaceful, but that is not at all what happened. fourthly, it is not about me at all that i'm here replying to you. it's your own choice to think that i have little credibility or not. if you're in my place in this moment and if you lived here in the past 8 days you'd realize you have no right at all to say all this

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  • 63. At 5:01pm on 03 Feb 2011, Simon21 wrote:

    54. At 4:01pm on 03 Feb 2011, LucyJ wrote:
    If wrote: President Obama is rock solid on civil rights. Strongest defender of civil rights in American history ever to occupy the Oval Office. An attack on peaceful protesters would have crystallized his position in a heartbeat.
    --------
    I had to laugh when I read this...come on, If, rock solid!

    If Obama was so rock solid, then why didn't he do anything about the Green Revolution in Iran to help them>?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hmmm. Good one. Nothing to do with the fact that the US is actually in Egpyt in a big way? Gives it billions.

    I have no doubt certain US companies going through Iraq give Iran generous amounts too, but not as part of the US government.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Remember Neda? Why didn't Obama try to help people like her?

    What do you suggest he do, bomb her family?

    Incidently remember the Palestinian grand mother beaten by Israeli settlers with US baseball bats? No, what a surprise. Why didn't he help her by telling US "settlers" not to savagely assault old women?

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    WHy does Obama not want to get involved with Iran's protesters, but now he wants to get involved with and is taking sides with Egypt's?


    Political geography not exactly your strongpoint.

    You might as well ask why he doesn't remove the government of China.

    Think about it
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Compare how Obama reacted to Iran's protesters with Egypt's protesters and I can't help but feel that President Obama is a hypocrite when it comes to human rights due to his ultraliberalism...


    Yeh yeh but if the people of Egypt get democractic freedom, does Obama's personal virtue matter a great deal.

    80 million people, all of them human beings like you.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And I am tired of USA getting involved in other coutnries affairs, I think President Obama should just stay out of it cause its not his country...


    You just had a pop for him not getting involved in Iran! What's it to be?

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  • 64. At 5:03pm on 03 Feb 2011, marieinaustin wrote:

    We’ve seen Obama’s face already. If people would stop looking at his face, and focus on the ends of his sleeves.


    For example, he chose today to tell everyone that his Christian religion has accompanied him into the White House. What a thing to announce today.

    But it doesn’t matter what religion; that’s not his purpose. Since he said he prays for humility, I would suggest he continue to do so.

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  • 65. At 5:04pm on 03 Feb 2011, Simon21 wrote:

    52. At 3:48pm on 03 Feb 2011, LucyJ wrote:
    President Obama Admin are making all sorts of statements, but why should it be up to us?

    Why wouldn't this be up to Egypt and Egypt alone?

    If Mubarack resigns, what if a worse person is put in his place?
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Freedom and liberty are risky things Lucy. Look what they through up in the US.

    Native genocide, lynching, endemic violent crime etc etc

    But no one seems to be calling for the restoration of absolute monarchy.

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  • 66. At 5:19pm on 03 Feb 2011, DenverGuest wrote:


    55. At 4:14pm on 03 Feb 2011, Amr wrote:
    48. At 3:35pm on 03 Feb 2011, LucyJ wrote:
    "And to me, the pro-Mubarack protesters have every right to be there protesting peacefully just as much as the ones who are peacefully protesting against him..."
    i totally agree. but, there is also a third group of people. Most people just want to go back to their normal lives and they don't care about politics at all. they were just forced to face the whole situation. they paid the worst price and they had to deal with all the consequences.
    i belonged to that last group, but now i'm trying to give everyone a fair chance although i don't really mind who will be chosen in the end. i just want the nonsense, the bloodshed and the opinion of some of the Egyptians here who want to force all people to choose a certain path to go away so that all Egyptians will return to their normal life.
    --------------------------------------
    Ah, yes. Normal life............
    http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/01/mubaraks-human-rights-record

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  • 67. At 5:21pm on 03 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    JERUSALEM - Human Rights Watch on Tuesday slammed Gaza's Hamas rulers for breaking up a rally in support of the Egyptian uprising, a day after it accused the Palestinian Authority of doing the same.

    It said police in Gaza City arrested six women and intimidated another 20 who gathered in a park on Monday support the anti-government protests in Egypt, which entered their second week on Tuesday.

    Source: http://www.middle-east-online.com/English/?id=44016

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  • 68. At 5:22pm on 03 Feb 2011, mscracker wrote:

    59. At 4:37pm on 03 Feb 2011, wikikiki wrote:
    @ 43 The majority of Jews in Israel are (yiddish not hebrew) Ashkenazim who migrated from Europe and did not originate from Africa or the ME
    ************
    There's quite a bit of DNA info now suggesting a definite Middle Eastern origin for European Jews-at least in the maternal DNA.And a percentage (might have been 15%?)of Ashkenazi Jews also showed African DNA types, as well.I thought that was pretty interesting.
    I think many of us who think of ourselves as a particular race or ethnicity can be quite surprised when we examine DNA results or delve back far enough in our family history.At least in America where all sorts of people have immigrated over the last 400 or more years.It reminds me that we all have common origins originally.
    And as I understand it, Yiddish was/is just the everyday language of Ashkenazi Jews & Hebrew was reserved for worship.Sephardic Jews I think spoke Ladino.

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  • 69. At 5:24pm on 03 Feb 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    60. At 4:46pm on 03 Feb 2011, Simon21 wrote:
    You have to hand it to the CIA. Billion dollar budgets, agents crawling everywhere, according to themselves, yet there is hardly a single crisis from Tianmen Square, 9/11, Iraq etc that they they have not either completely missed or misread.
    ____________________________________________________
    The CIA isn’t what it used to be. It has become so risk averse that over half of its “operators” are posted in the greater DC area? Who are they spying on in DC; the Russian Embassy, the Chinese Embassy? That’s supposed to be the FBI’s job. No, they war game and they read tea leaves and they data mine, but we don’t really have many real spies out there making human contact and actually looking out for American interest abroad.

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  • 70. At 5:27pm on 03 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Grateful Marie wrote:
    We’ve seen Obama’s face already. If people would stop looking at his face, and focus on the ends of his sleeves.









    Magicians wanting to prove they're not tricksters usually roll-up their sleeves.

    Although as P.T. Barnaum has put it:


    A SUCKER IS BORN EVERY MINUTE.


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  • 71. At 5:30pm on 03 Feb 2011, Amr wrote:

    9 wikikiki
    "This proves Muderous Mubarak's Mob's are power brokers for themselves and don't care about the rights or life's of the people of Egypt one little bit. They don't want peace they want a civil war."
    what about the other mob? did you see the damage that happened before yesterday? do you know what Egyptians feel as they see what happened to their country after 25th of January? your accusation tune is very insulting too. are you sure you even care for Egypt? we're already trying to avoid that civil war you're talking about. that's why those who supported President Mubarak preferred the peaceful choice firstly which is avoiding conflict and trying to deal with the consequences of what the protests caused

    13 powermeerkat
    the reason the Egyptian army is trusted by everyone here is that they're actually all like sons for Egyptians. it is very different from the way policemen are regarded. also, we need to trust and support them because they are the ones responsible for protecting our country, wouldn't you think highly of your country's army too? & no, i assure you not a single person distrust the army or think they will support President Mubarak against people's best interest. you will hear the same thing from everyone here, not just me.
    19 Yednekachew Mekonnen
    "I don't like Obama's reluctant response to this unrest. He should act strongly not in fever of Egyptians or Mubarak, but for the sake of Democracy!" the situation here in Egypt is a little complicated. we would not accept any military support at all. at this point, it is extremely difficult to tell how many people actually want President Mubarak to stay and who wants him to leave. most people here prefer to avoid any sort of conflict, but this doesn't seem to be working out well. Also, there is a big question mark about who can actually fill this place. Unfortunately, i don't know the answer for this question and ironically those who want President Mubarak to leave do not know anything after that particular point.
    21 dogbert
    although we do have many extremists here, we do not have problems concerning them. i didn't see this photo before and actually i'm thankful that you posted it.
    22 Chryses
    i don't really know how things will turn out eventually, but i wish for the best. it's not good for most people if Egypt was fated to be led by some extremist who forces the whole country to go through a military struggle, or even war

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  • 72. At 5:31pm on 03 Feb 2011, mscracker wrote:

    65. At 5:04pm on 03 Feb 2011, Simon21 wrote:
    "Freedom and liberty are risky things Lucy. Look what they through up in the US.

    Native genocide, lynching, endemic violent crime etc etc

    But no one seems to be calling for the restoration of absolute monarchy."
    ************
    Do you believe those are the results of freedom & liberty?

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  • 73. At 5:38pm on 03 Feb 2011, Amr wrote:

    66 DenverGuest
    i realize life here is not perfect and we do have many problems. i don't think heaven is waiting when we flip the "Change the Ruler" switch though.
    also, we're not a rich country and we do have high unemployment rates and overpopulation problems to deal with. i believe it's mostly the duty and responsibility of people to help make things better for their country. i cannot blame the President for all the mistakes and the corruption and problems that happen. we all do make mistakes, sometimes big ones, don't we?

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  • 74. At 5:47pm on 03 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #69

    Oldloard



    Do you think old cold warriors like us should re-enlist?

    Since those newcomers seem to know s..t about national intelligence let alone COUNTER-intelligence?


    P.S. I think I could still lay a B61-11 precisely on the target be that Natanz, Youngboung or whatever in a near-zero visibility.

    [If you were kind enough to load one for me :)]

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  • 75. At 5:54pm on 03 Feb 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    66. At 5:19pm on 03 Feb 2011, DenverGuest wrote:

    Ah, yes. Normal life............
    ___________________________________________________
    DenverGuest, how are you, ma’am? I really don’t mean to sound flippant, but your posting made me realize that if you stay on this blog long enough and read all of the postings from all different POV; you see that by somebody’s standard every country and every leader of every country are guilty of some type of human rights abuse. So, what is the standard? Just staying in office for 30 years probably won’t make the cut, especially in the ME where there are benevolent dictatorships where the populace is very happy. Is it denial of habeas corpus for political rivals? Maybe, but Abraham Lincoln did that in Kentucky in 1861 to keep pro succession members of the legislature from getting to Frankfort to vote. I’m sure we would all agree that if you reach the level of cruelty and mass murder of a Stalin or Pol Pot, you are there, but is there proof that Mubarak has been there? I know that people out to persuade on a POV may use hyperbolae and gross exaggerations to sway others.

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  • 76. At 5:55pm on 03 Feb 2011, Amr wrote:

    53 worcesterjim wrote
    thanks! there are many rumors that i keep hearing all the time and they are actually very annoying if not harmful as well.
    if you listened to one of the sides you'll end up thinking that they're purehearted angels and the other side is all evil. i don't really want you to think that i think President Mubarak is the best or that it's better if he stayed or if he left. i don't want you to think he's the worst either. it's not up to me only to judge how good or bad he is. this is the whole people's decision. it's not up to any Egyptian group with a louder voice than the rest
    about my remark regarding Thomas Cromwell, i totally respect the British civilisation and history. it just increases my worries about tomorrow. what if all the bright promises that were claimed by protests are not true? what if things will get much worse? what if people did not really accept this change (even if it was really for the better)
    and so far the truth is... we lost a lot! Egypt is in a very bad shape. we need to avoid conflict between Egyptians, restore peace and rebuild the country. yes, i understand people have different opinions and i do wish that everyone here will say what they really want for Egypt to become.

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  • 77. At 6:07pm on 03 Feb 2011, hms_shannon wrote:

    69. At 5:24pm on 03 Feb 2011, Oldloadr wrote:
    60. At 4:46pm on 03 Feb 2011, Simon21 wrote:
    You have to hand it to the CIA. Billion dollar budgets, agents crawling everywhere, according to themselves, yet there is hardly a single crisis from Tianmen Square, 9/11, Iraq etc that they they have not either completely missed or misread.
    ____________________________________________________
    The CIA isn’t what it used to be. It has become so risk averse that over half of its “operators” are posted in the greater DC area? Who are they spying on in DC; the Russian Embassy, the Chinese Embassy? That’s supposed to be the FBI’s job. No, they war game and they read tea leaves and they data mine, but we don’t really have many real spies out there making human contact and actually looking out for American interest abroad.
    ---------------------------------------------
    Perhaps if they did not all wear Rupert Bear trousers with matching jacket, crew cut & sunglasses they might have more success...

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  • 78. At 6:20pm on 03 Feb 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    74. At 5:47pm on 03 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:
    P.S. I think I could still lay a B61-11 precisely on the target be that Natanz, Youngboung or whatever in a near-zero visibility.

    [If you were kind enough to load one for me :)]
    ___________________________________________________________
    I am sure that I can still mate a "silver bullet" to any fighter aircraft you choose (never did heavies, but I could probably figure it out, eventually).

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  • 79. At 6:23pm on 03 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    ukwales: " The CIA isn’t what it used to be. It has become so risk averse that over half of its “operators” are posted in the greater DC area? Who are they spying on in DC; the Russian Embassy, the Chinese Embassy?"




    Nope, ukwales, they don't.

    Boys from The Company have more important tasks. Somewhere else. :-)



    I can assure our the white hats from FBI are still firmly in charge.

    "Jut facts, Ma'am" :-)

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  • 80. At 6:24pm on 03 Feb 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    Simon wrote: Yeh yeh but if the people of Egypt get democractic freedom, does Obama's personal virtue matter a great deal.

    80 million people, all of them human beings like you.
    ----------------------------
    Which is why I think ALL of them should have a say in voting for hte person they want to in the upcoming election in six or so months!!!

    I mean, since Mubarack said he wouldn't run, that means they definitely won't get him, so why don't the protesters focus their energy on who wants to run for Pres later this year?

    One million people does not represent the entirity of 80 million people!

    WHy can't the protesters wait until the next election for democracy to translate?
    -------------
    Simon wrote: You just had a pop for him not getting involved in Iran! What's it to be?
    ---------------
    I think its Egypt's right- the entire population 80 mil strong- to decide who they want in charge of their country in the upcoming election and I don't feel USA should pick who that leader is or tell Egypt who or who can't run, who needs to step down, ect...

    My opinion is that President Obama should not tell Egypt what to do, but rather let Egypt be Egypt...

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  • 81. At 6:27pm on 03 Feb 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    66 denverguest

    You have a fair point but the more I understand about the world the more convinced I get that folk like us really don`t have much room to boast about our countries and their human right`s records....as the thousands of dead in Iraq and Afghanistan would confirm if they were alive to tell the tale.

    This endless argument about which country and politician is wonderful or awful or to blame for everything or blameless has a sort of schoolyard feel to it.

    Obama and my government are just figureheads...if you want my guess you would be closer to the real power in the world if you investigated our shadowy security services..like the CIA.. and Wall Street ..and the City of London...and international big business and financiers like Buffet and Soros....and the media and military.

    I have no wish to be unkind but some of our top politicians have supposedly run our nations while mentally unstable or suffering from dementia.....so let`s not get carried away with blaming them for everything that happens...eh?

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  • 82. At 6:31pm on 03 Feb 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    Simon wrote: Freedom and liberty are risky things Lucy. Look what they through up in the US.

    Native genocide, lynching, endemic violent crime etc etc

    But no one seems to be calling for the restoration of absolute monarchy.
    ------------

    Where's the positive, Simon? Where's the love?

    Actually I believe thats called being primal and survival of the fittest....

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  • 83. At 6:34pm on 03 Feb 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    amr wrote: although we do have many extremists here, we do not have problems concerning them. i didn't see this photo before and actually i'm thankful that you posted it.
    -------
    Yes, but could it take place the other way around, amr?
    (what was in the pic)

    So both sides feel they are in solidarity together?
    -------
    amr wrote: i don't really know how things will turn out eventually, but i wish for the best. it's not good for most people if Egypt was fated to be led by some extremist who forces the whole country to go through a military struggle, or even war
    -------
    And its anyones guess if hte person voted for acutally does what htey say once htey are in office!

    After politicians are elected, they can change real quick!

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  • 84. At 6:39pm on 03 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #78

    Oldloadr

    These days a much dialed-down B61 version would suffice.
    (CEPs being what they are now)

    And even a regular jock from USS "Ronald Reagan" or "GHW Bush", in a simple SuperHornet could do the job. Insh Allah!

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  • 85. At 6:52pm on 03 Feb 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    84. At 6:39pm on 03 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:
    Re #78
    And even a regular jock from USS "Ronald Reagan" or "GHW Bush", in a simple SuperHornet could do the job. Insh Allah!
    ______________________________________________________
    Those Navy bomb rack are simpler than the MAU-12, a lot like the old BRU-5 in the F-4E centerline; and the wings are high enough you don't have to crawl on the ground (deck); important to old geezers like me.




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  • 86. At 6:52pm on 03 Feb 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    Pmk weote: Do you think old cold warriors like us should re-enlist?

    Since those newcomers seem to know s..t about national intelligence let alone COUNTER-intelligence?
    ---------
    I realize this q was not directed toward me, but I would just like to throw in that they don't make people like they used to...I can especially see it in hte generation under me...but I don't look at it in a negative light cause its just the times- its Hollywoods and medias influence, its our morals and values changing, its living in uncertain times when we are in recession, global warming on rise and even the bees are disappearing...the new American generation has to live with what Bush and Obama have done and are doing and that's not easy!

    I think the new generation is best off if they appreciate the advice of the older generation...

    Our generation has to learn on our own that the best way to do things is good old fashioned hard work...

    And I pray and hope they realize how much an American product means to an American...

    And how being an American is not about illegally crossing a border...

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  • 87. At 7:04pm on 03 Feb 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110203/us_nm/us_usa_forthood

    An excerpt:

    The report said evidence of Hasan's "radicalization to violent Islamist extremism" was on display to his superiors and colleagues during his military medical training and he was referred to as a "ticking time bomb" by two of them. "Not only was no action taken to discharge him, but also his Officer Evaluation Reports sanitized his obsession with violent Islamist extremism into praiseworthy research on counterterrorism," the report said.
    --------
    So why didn't anyone do anything?

    Beacuse of ultraliberalism>?

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  • 88. At 7:08pm on 03 Feb 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110202/ap_on_re_eu/eu_wikileaks_nobel

    An excerpt:
    A Norwegian lawmaker has nominated WikiLeaks for the 2011 Nobel Peace Prize, saying Wednesday that its disclosures of classified documents promote world peace by holding governments accountable for their actions.
    ----------

    If wikileaks wins Nobel Peace Prize, will USA boycott Nobel Peace Prize ceremony?

    Cause' why would we support a group that is harming our country and our military?

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  • 89. At 7:12pm on 03 Feb 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    As wikileaks is now being nominated for Nobel Peace Prize, I know now some of how China felt when that guy they didn't like was nominated...and I can offer China some sympathy for this...

    I support China and friends decision to not attend last years ceremony just like how I now would support USA's decision to not attend this years ceremony...

    The Nobel Peace Prize is really the prize for who is the most ultraliberal!!!!!!!

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  • 90. At 7:19pm on 03 Feb 2011, Interestedforeigner wrote:

    54. At 4:01pm on 03 Feb 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    "I had to laugh when I read this...come on, If, rock solid!"

    [[Yes, rock solid, like granite.

    President Obama has defended the Constitution of the United States, and the freedoms and values it guarantees, with courage, and energy at every turn, without hesitation, and without equivocation. He has done so when it was not popular. He has done so when it came with huge political costs.

    I have no doubt whatsoever that he will continue to do so, no matter how unpopular it may be, because those core beliefs are where he lives. President Obama is a civil rights kind-of-guy, at all times and in all places, in fair weather and foul.

    A greater defender of civil rights than Johnson or Kennedy? Yes.

    A greater defender of civil rights than Lincoln? Well, that's a very high standard, but certainly no less than Lincoln. President Obama may compromise on many issues, but the one on which he will not, and does not, compromise is civil rights. That, by the way, is the critical common ground that he and John McCain shared. It was a source of mutual respect. Why no less than Lincoln? Because even Lincoln, from 1858 - 1863 and even after, had to bend with the winds of compromise, and it nearly drove Frederick Douglass to distraction.]]

    ----------

    "If Obama was so rock solid, then why didn't he do anything about the Green Revolution in Iran to help them>?"

    [[He tried very, very hard to help the protesters in Iran. But America's ability to help was extremely limited - not least because of past errors in policy in respect of Iran, which made any overt help from America something that would undermine the cause of those protesting for free and open government.]]


    "Remember Neda? Why didn't Obama try to help people like her?"

    [[He did try to help her. Oh, gosh, did he try to help her and people like her. If you don't think so, then you need to be paying closer attention. If I am not much mistaken, America is still trying very hard to help those who seek a democratic Iran, where Iranians choose their own government and their own future, freely and fairly.

    You badly underestimate President Obama here. Go back and review the "Obama's Iran Dilemma" string that Justin Webb ran before you started posting here.

    I am impressed, by the way, that on both occasions John McCain has stepped up when asked. There's a guy who you know will do the right thing when it comes down to the crunch. You know for certain that man's dedication to serving his country will continue until he draws his last breath. Yes, I like John McCain. A lot.]]

    ----------

    "And I am tired of USA getting involved in other coutnries affairs, I think President Obama should just stay out of it cause its not his country..."

    [[Yes, quite true. Perhaps the same rule should apply in respect of America disentagling itself from the Arab-Israeli conflict?

    The western nations - not merely the US - are all trying to support those who seek human rights that we regard as the universal entitlement of every person. But the ability of any foreign nation to influence events on the ground in Egypt (and elsewhere) in a positive way is remarkably small.

    Ironically, and frustratingly, by contrast the ability of foreign nations to do lasting harm by doing the wrong thing (e.g., unwise, precipitate military intervention), is remarkably large, as past policies have shown, time and time again.]]

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  • 91. At 7:36pm on 03 Feb 2011, JusticeForAll wrote:

    WikiLeaks deserve Nobel Prize than anyone on earth as he brought the politcians dark side to the surface.

    I have no faith in Obama as he was in power when the Sri Lankan regime with the collaboration of India committed war crimes and human rights abuses against Tamils. Now we hear about the Clinton's cosiness relationship as per a Canadian Professor of Law - see below:

    http://tamilnet.com/art.html?catid=79&artid=33499

    Interesting article: “Taking Tea with Torturers:”

    This shows that the world is not yet civilized due to mockery and evil politicians. Innocent civilians and ordinary human beings who wants to have a better free life for themselves are at the receiving end and paying a heavy price to seek justice, freedom and democracy!

    We may need more revolutions and every hour delay in removing Mubarak is real danger to democracy, human rights, freedom and mankind.


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  • 92. At 7:41pm on 03 Feb 2011, publiusdetroit wrote:

    Ref 86 LucyJ-

    "Our generation has to learn on our own that the best way to do things is good old fashioned hard work..."

    Just wondering, Lucy? Are you posting on this blog during company time?

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  • 93. At 7:50pm on 03 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re#85

    Now, Oldloadr, I've never got an impression you're a crawling kind.



    And if it's any consolation: Ive always had a problem with dropping to my knees and sucking somebodys little...hmmm...finger.

    Even when I was a school boy.

    And the older I am, the stiffer I get. :-)

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  • 94. At 7:55pm on 03 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re "intelligence and counterintelligence"


    Lucy, If there were more gals like you, I wouldn't worry to much 'bout Annas Chapmans.

    I'm sure you could detect a plant when you saw one. :-)

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  • 95. At 7:59pm on 03 Feb 2011, DenverGuest wrote:

    73. At 5:38pm on 03 Feb 2011, Amr wrote:
    66 DenverGuest
    i realize life here is not perfect and we do have many problems. i don't think heaven is waiting when we flip the "Change the Ruler" switch though.
    also, we're not a rich country and we do have high unemployment rates and overpopulation problems to deal with. i believe it's mostly the duty and responsibility of people to help make things better for their country. i cannot blame the President for all the mistakes and the corruption and problems that happen. we all do make mistakes, sometimes big ones, don't we?
    ----------------------------------------
    I don't expect that heaven is waiting either, but the President definitely deserves the blame for the problem of ongoing torture and oppression. He is the man at the top and he sets the tone for what goes on below him, even if he does not personally sign the order to torture this prisoner or that. To have stayed in power for so many decades requires an apparatus be in place to quell dissent and he has put that apparatus in place very effectively.
    The people of Egypt deserve to have a say as to who rules the country. The one million are protesting so that the other 79 million can have that right. Whether the silent 79 million choose to vote for Mubarak/his hand-picked successor or somebody else is up to them. You have no more right to speak for them than I do.

    75. At 5:54pm on 03 Feb 2011, Oldloadr wrote:
    66. At 5:19pm on 03 Feb 2011, DenverGuest wrote:

    Ah, yes. Normal life............
    ___________________________________________________
    DenverGuest, how are you, ma’am? I really don’t mean to sound flippant, but your posting made me realize that if you stay on this blog long enough and read all of the postings from all different POV; you see that by somebody’s standard every country and every leader of every country are guilty of some type of human rights abuse. So, what is the standard?
    --------------------------------
    Oldloadr, how about we start here:
    Torture, according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture (an advisory measure of the UN General Assembly) is:
    ...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions.


    Just staying in office for 30 years probably won’t make the cut, especially in the ME where there are benevolent dictatorships where the populace is very happy. Is it denial of habeas corpus for political rivals? Maybe, but Abraham Lincoln did that in Kentucky in 1861 to keep pro succession members of the legislature from getting to Frankfort to vote.
    -------------------------
    Well let's just start with the torture part then, shall we?


    I’m sure we would all agree that if you reach the level of cruelty and mass murder of a Stalin or Pol Pot, you are there, but is there proof that Mubarak has been there? I know that people out to persuade on a POV may use hyperbolae and gross exaggerations to sway others.
    -------------------------------------
    So anything short of Pol Pot is a-okay? I sure hope not. BTW, were you one of the people who was for the Iraq war because Saddam Hussein was such an awful guy? Why the change of heart now?



    81. At 6:27pm on 03 Feb 2011, worcesterjim wrote:
    66 denverguest
    You have a fair point but the more I understand about the world the more convinced I get that folk like us really don`t have much room to boast about our countries and their human right`s records....as the thousands of dead in Iraq and Afghanistan would confirm if they were alive to tell the tale.
    -----------------------------------
    I was against the Iraq war totally. I thought Afghanistan was premature and more than anything happened to quell the revenge in the hearts of Americans. I'm not a country. I am an individual.


    This endless argument about which country and politician is wonderful or awful or to blame for everything or blameless has a sort of schoolyard feel to it.
    ----------------------------
    I agree with you when the talking heads start talking about whether Obama is a socialist, or GWB is a racist, but this is a bit more serious. We're talking about a guy who has been in power for over thirty years and has an abysmal, and well-documented, human rights record. And now all of a sudden there are so many voices saying "well he's not THAT bad...."


    Obama and my government are just figureheads...if you want my guess you would be closer to the real power in the world if you investigated our shadowy security services..like the CIA.. and Wall Street ..and the City of London...and international big business and financiers like Buffet and Soros....and the media and military.
    I have no wish to be unkind but some of our top politicians have supposedly run our nations while mentally unstable or suffering from dementia.....so let`s not get carried away with blaming them for everything that happens...eh?
    ------------------------------------
    I'm not going to take a strong stance on whether Mubarak is somebody's puppet, or his own man, regarding the decisions that he has made during his tenure. I don't feel comfortable straying too far into the realm of conjecture. I would say that if it happened in his name, on his watch, then he should be held accountable.

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  • 96. At 8:04pm on 03 Feb 2011, JusticeForAll wrote:

    Americans have no respect for democracy, human rights, freedom, Law and order, Rule of Law or mankind. Their twisted talk and their tongue twist all sides.

    For the Americans freedom struggle is terrorism, state terrorism is democracy, illegal occupation is development, ethnic cleansing is strengthening values, war crime is to maintain peace and they can talk any way they want as they are a powerful nation.

    The Americans are losing credibility.Americans are to manipulate puppet leaders for their greediness.

    http://www.opendemocracy.net/craig-scott/taking-tea-with-torturers

    http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2010/05/142354.htm

    http://www.srilankacampaign.org/welcome.htm

    US will not bring peace and stability in Egypt and it can only done by the Egyptians.

    Sri Lankan Tamils pauid a heavy price for trusting the Western nations and this is an example for all other freedom lovers.

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  • 97. At 8:07pm on 03 Feb 2011, DenverGuest wrote:

    87. At 7:04pm on 03 Feb 2011, LucyJ wrote:
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110203/us_nm/us_usa_forthood
    An excerpt:
    The report said evidence of Hasan's "radicalization to violent Islamist extremism" was on display to his superiors and colleagues during his military medical training and he was referred to as a "ticking time bomb" by two of them. "Not only was no action taken to discharge him, but also his Officer Evaluation Reports sanitized his obsession with violent Islamist extremism into praiseworthy research on counterterrorism," the report said.
    --------
    So why didn't anyone do anything?
    Beacuse of ultraliberalism>?
    ------------------------------------
    Because the US Military is such a hotbed of ultraliberalism?


    89. At 7:12pm on 03 Feb 2011, LucyJ wrote:
    As wikileaks is now being nominated for Nobel Peace Prize, I know now some of how China felt when that guy they didn't like was nominated...and I can offer China some sympathy for this...
    I support China and friends decision to not attend last years ceremony just like how I now would support USA's decision to not attend this years ceremony...
    The Nobel Peace Prize is really the prize for who is the most ultraliberal!!!!!!!
    -------------------------------------
    Ultraliberalism! Ultraliberalism!
    In the words of Inugo Montoya, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

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  • 98. At 8:32pm on 03 Feb 2011, BluesBerry wrote:

    The ordinary Egyptian wants nothing less than the immediate overthrow of Mubarak and his entire apparatus of corruption. They want alleviation of massive their poverty.
    There is a long haul ahead for the people to realise their dreams for democracy.
    The Egyptian People’s revolution has brought to its knees the might of US imperialism. Mubarak’s bosses in the White House have evidently been overwhelmed. They've been overwhelmed since Tunisia and then Algeria and then Jordan and then Yemen...Such a wide reaction only goes to show the depth of the unfairness & grievances across these United States-backed dictatorial regimes. It seems the puppetmasters have misplaced their strings.
    The United States is desperately trying to cover its tarnished image across the Middle East and northern Africa.
    Was it only a couple of days ago that Washington was saying that it stood firmly with Mubarak. Now, Washington is saying it “hears the voice of the people’ and, while still (somehow, incongruously) backing Mubarak, the American Government is telling the man to take an “orderly exit”.
    The American government CREATED the Egyptian Regime; the American Government backed this regime to the tune of $45B/year.
    The American Government has colluded with Murbarak’s police state to murder, terrorize and make powerless the Egyptian people.
    The American Government has equipped and used Mubarak’s regime as an extension of its own military to carry out war crimes (like rendition) across the Middle East.
    Yet who is calling the American Government to task? Why is the media being so gentle with the American Administration? Is that the average journalist does not know history, does not appreciate the extent of the American damage across the Middle East and Northern Africa?
    Instead the media calls Egypt an “important ally”. This is the stuff that makes Eyptian stomach's turn and their rage burn.
    Obama’s call to Mubarak for an "orderly transition" is nothing a rotten ploy by the American Government to move from one distator to another. Eyptian grievances cannot be answered by the quick installation of some moderate voices (e.g. El Baradei).
    Such American tactics bespeak arrogance as well as ignorance.
    While the Egyptian people have brought Egypt and the American Government to their knees, the future is full of danger. If the protest doesn't move quickly, if a clear plan is not set in place, there is the danger of more bloodshed and of course: counter-revolution (such as we are seeing now - on camels & horses yet!)
    This the reason that the United States Governmnet is dithering because the longer it dithers, the sooner the Egyptian citizens may give up and just accept the likes of Omar Sulieman - anything for less bloodshed and some little piece of normality.

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  • 99. At 8:35pm on 03 Feb 2011, MagicKirin wrote:

    Off topic but Mark you should devote a thread to the celebration of Reagan's 100th birthday

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  • 100. At 8:36pm on 03 Feb 2011, readwriteandblue wrote:

    @ 3. At 05:38am on 03 Feb 2011, JMay wrote:

    #2

    "Strongest defender of civil rights in American history ever to occupy the Oval Office."

    Obama > Lincoln

    Obama > Johnson

    Obama > Jesus

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    You know i pretty sure that jesus died about 1800 years before The USA was born.
    But if you want i will re check

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  • 101. At 8:37pm on 03 Feb 2011, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #88
    LucyJ wrote:
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110202/ap_on_re_eu/eu_wikileaks_nobel

    An excerpt:
    A Norwegian lawmaker has nominated WikiLeaks for the 2011 Nobel Peace Prize, saying Wednesday that its disclosures of classified documents promote world peace by holding governments accountable for their actions.
    ----------

    If wikileaks wins Nobel Peace Prize, will USA boycott Nobel Peace Prize ceremony?

    Cause' why would we support a group that is harming our country and our military?


    ________

    Another example of what a joke the Nobel Peace Prize is, giving help to enemies of the West is the easiest way to win.

    Assannge belongs in Guantanamo he can room with a fellow terrorist

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  • 102. At 9:28pm on 03 Feb 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    Denverguest...over the years my government and people and yours have roamed the world acting as bullying pirates slavers and murderous thieves..while claiming to be driven by a christain faith and a wish to spread freedom and democracy and the rule of law. (HO HO!)When we stopped doing it openly we carried on doing it secretly and we still do it today.
    Now get this straight...before you mouth off about what happened on MUBARAK`s watch...and what you in your goddam self important way think he should be answerable for ....you just remember this....Mubarak often acted for your country while you were supposed to be on watch against the hypocrisy and dishonesty of YOUR POLITICIANS.

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  • 103. At 9:32pm on 03 Feb 2011, marieinaustin wrote:

    …while it’s a better time to be encouraging total separation of church and state...since what one says does have an influence....


    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/world/middleeast/04brotherhood.html?_r=1&hp


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  • 104. At 10:06pm on 03 Feb 2011, DenverGuest wrote:

    102. At 9:28pm on 03 Feb 2011, worcesterjim wrote:
    Denverguest...over the years my government and people and yours have roamed the world acting as bullying pirates slavers and murderous thieves..while claiming to be driven by a christain faith and a wish to spread freedom and democracy and the rule of law. (HO HO!)When we stopped doing it openly we carried on doing it secretly and we still do it today.
    ---------------------------------
    I don't disagree with you. I just can't go into detail about how we have or have not done it in Egypt because I'm no expert and I have no ready articles, documents etc... to cite as sources. You go ahead and give me some.

    Now get this straight...before you mouth off about what happened on MUBARAK`s watch...and what you in your goddam self important way think he should be answerable for ....you just remember this....Mubarak often acted for your country while you were supposed to be on watch against the hypocrisy and dishonesty of YOUR POLITICIANS.
    ----------------------------------------
    Take a pill, dude.
    You appear to be stating that I am unfit to state my opinions because of my country of origin. If you apply that standard to everybody equally, we will have to shut this board down because nobody will be fit to post here.
    As a matter of fact I take the misdeeds of the USA very much to heart and speak out about them. As an individual, I am as capable as the next person of coming to the conclusion that "torture is bad" and "a leader who supports torture is not fit to be a leader", and you should know that I have said the same thing of our very own GWB on many occasions.
    The USA isn't a mess just because I, personally, wasn't "watching against the hypocrisy and dishonesty of MY POLITICIANS".

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  • 105. At 10:44pm on 03 Feb 2011, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #102
    , worcesterjim wrote:
    Denverguest...over the years my government and people and yours have roamed the world acting as bullying pirates slavers and murderous thieves
    ____________

    I disagee from WW1 on the U.S and U.K have given so much to the world the wrld will never be able to repay us.

    I don't think it is wrong to say.

    We stoped the Nazi threat, than the communist threat, we are leading the fight against islamic terrorism

    Most of the medical and technolgical advances come from here.

    And in terms of disaster help we always lead.

    We generaly take the hard moral stands as we do in the Middle East and in this hemisphere.

    Many on the left forget that.

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  • 107. At 11:04pm on 03 Feb 2011, BienvenueEnLouisiana wrote:

    Bluesberry, you don't get it; whatever support Pres. Mubarak had in the US evaporated the moment the pro-Mubarak protesters became violent. I have no more sympathy for a man whose government almost certainly organized, armed, and bused in pro-government thugs; before my eyes on live TV they attacked western journalists and their camera crews, some of which had to be hospitalized for their injuries, others barricaded themselves inside buildings or were detained.
    Your talk about tarnished images and hypocrisy is frankly weak and does not serve the forces of democratic republicanism in the region. Do you honestly believe that the US government would support such violent outbursts from the pro-Mubarak protesters? The reason the US financially supported the Egyptian military and worked diplomatically with the Egyptian government is because 30+ years ago it was a force for stability and modernity in a very unstable, undemocratic part of the world; the government has squandered its long opportunity to make meaningful reforms and thus faces the chaos we see today. Are you suggesting that the US should never have perused friendly relations with Egypt? Or perhaps your suggesting the US should have installed a democratic government in Egypt after the Arab-Israeli war. Regardless, you can continue to be distrustful of American intentions all you want, but I would be remiss if I didn't challenge your assumptions. The only arrogance and ignorance on display for all the world to see today is that of Pres. Mubarak and his party's leadership.

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  • 108. At 11:08pm on 03 Feb 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    OK Denverguest ...I apologise for losing my rag....it isn`t all your fault nor mine either...but let`s face facts about the huge difference between the rhetoric we hear from our leaders........ and the behaviour of our nations..... and stop pointing our fingers arrogantly at people like Mubarak and expecting HIM to take responsibility for what we BOTH should know was OUR country`s policy ....and not necessarily in Egypt`s interests at all.

    We meddle in secret ...acting out of cynical self interest ...and then we waddle about the world pressing ..and sometimes squeezing... the flesh..... as though we are the second coming of Jesus Christ...and then we blow the blue blazes out of anyone who doesn`t get the soft message.

    Then ...because we have this absurdly inflated idea of our own virtue and wonderfulness ...we use our media to brainwash the world (and our own people) into borrowing so much money that the entire civilisation we created looks like falling down around us.

    But hey! We know what the world needs now...not love..but more crazy borrowing and consuming! We just have to grow our way out of this little blip!

    Don`t you see Denver...we are morally socially intellectually and financially BANKRUPT!

    Why should an ancient civilisation like the Egyptians listen to me or Denverguest....or even the latest fork-tongued US President....when his CIA will be obliging Egypt to do something entirely different?

    It`s WE who have to stop listening to our own deluded dishonest and hypocritical nonsense....and apologise..not go on compounding our own folly as we have before. Mubarak is a symptom not a cause!

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  • 111. At 11:30pm on 03 Feb 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    105 MK....You sound just like my beloved Dad...and he had to believe it because what he witnessed in WW 2 could only be justified if we were on the side of the angels.

    But he was fed a particular view of things that Hollywood vigorously promoted...along with our media. I dearly wish that I could have agreed with both of you...but Dad raised me to think for myself and to tell the truth as I believe it to be.

    106 wikiki......there`s something very superficial about your glee at disclosing the darker side of what is the best attempt at moving us on from a world based on intolerance and ignorance and war and genocide and mass starvation and mutual incomprehension.

    And though I have no connection with(and feel a hearty scepticism towards) global capitalism and the USA and its CIA ....I have to ask myself what would have arisen in its absence.... rather than indulge in taking cheap shots without having having anything demonstrably better to put in its place.

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  • 112. At 11:39pm on 03 Feb 2011, DenverGuest wrote:

    108. At 11:08pm on 03 Feb 2011, worcesterjim wrote:
    OK Denverguest ...I apologise for losing my rag....it isn`t all your fault nor mine either...but let`s face facts about the huge difference between the rhetoric we hear from our leaders........ and the behaviour of our nations..... and stop pointing our fingers arrogantly at people like Mubarak and expecting HIM to take responsibility for what we BOTH should know was OUR country`s policy ....and not necessarily in Egypt`s interests at all.
    ---------------------------------------
    We don't disagree on this, except that I believe that Mubarak needs to take responsiblity for his part in it. Just as an individual, he's not blameless at all.


    We meddle in secret ...acting out of cynical self interest ...and then we waddle about the world pressing ..and sometimes squeezing... the flesh..... as though we are the second coming of Jesus Christ...and then we blow the blue blazes out of anyone who doesn`t get the soft message.
    -------------------------------------
    I'm not that 'we'. That 'we' is more likely to be LucyJ and other blind patriots like her.


    Then ...because we have this absurdly inflated idea of our own virtue and wonderfulness ...we use our media to brainwash the world (and our own people) into borrowing so much money that the entire civilisation we created looks like falling down around us.
    But hey! We know what the world needs now...not love..but more crazy borrowing and consuming! We just have to grow our way out of this little blip!
    ---------------------------------
    "Bling" does not equal virtue. Never did.


    Don`t you see Denver...we are morally socially intellectually and financially BANKRUPT!
    -------------------------------
    I, the individual who calls herself DenverGuest, am not.


    Why should an ancient civilisation like the Egyptians listen to me or Denverguest....or even the latest fork-tongued US President....when his CIA will be obliging Egypt to do something entirely different?
    ----------------------------------
    I don't think that they will.


    It`s WE who have to stop listening to our own deluded dishonest and hypocritical nonsense....and apologise..not go on compounding our own folly as we have before. Mubarak is a symptom not a cause!
    ---------------------------------------
    I'd be first in line to apologize to the people of Egypt for whatever our CIA etc. has done, but even if Mubarak is a puppet, he's still benefitting as an individual from what is going on. So maybe he's better lumped in with the CIA as opposed to the rest of the citizens.

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  • 113. At 11:51pm on 03 Feb 2011, Chryses wrote:

    wikikiki, (#106. At 10:53pm on 03 Feb 2011)
    ”. . . The C.I.A. was founded in 1947. Since it's inception, it was designed to be a terrorist organization of which to commandeer the world's future, to the likeings of the American Elite . . .”
    Not that it will mean much to the perfervid in these threads, but the primary function of the CIA is to collect information about foreign governments, corporations, and individuals, and to advise public policymakers. The CIA does HUMINT. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HUMINT ) What yo’re getting all worked up about is Special Activities Division (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Activities_Division )

    ”... Not many people actually applaud or even hold the C.I.A. in any high regard ...“
    Nonsense. The CIA does an excellent job. One might reasonably criticize some of the covert ops, but the intel returned by the CIA is often unavailable via any other channel.

    “... but do they realize the implications of all of the misdeeds that the C.I.A. has caused?”
    If you want to complain, call the White House, it is a agency that reports to the Executive branch.

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  • 114. At 00:13am on 04 Feb 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    112 OK Denverguest if you are down to deliberately misconstruing my references to "we" as us personally (rather our nations as I obviously intended)..I think it`s better if we just sound off in parallel rather than get into a frustrating unedifying and boring exchange.!

    Over to wikiki on the mouth organ while I repair to bed!

    Sweet dreams everyone!

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  • 115. At 00:13am on 04 Feb 2011, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #111
    worcesterjim wrote:
    105 MK....You sound just like my beloved Dad...and he had to believe it because what he witnessed in WW 2 could only be justified if we were on the side of the angels.

    But he was fed a particular view of things that Hollywood vigorously promoted...along with our media. I dearly wish that I could have agreed with both of you...but Dad raised me to think for myself and to tell the truth as I believe it to be.


    ___________

    as did mine and as a student of history when professor taught history instead of ideology I feel confident in my praise in the greatness of the U.S

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  • 116. At 00:15am on 04 Feb 2011, wolfvorkian wrote:

    113. Chryses wrote:
    ”... Not many people actually applaud or even hold the C.I.A. in any high regard ...“
    Nonsense. The CIA does an excellent job. One might reasonably criticize some of the covert ops, but the intel returned by the CIA is often unavailable via any other channel.


    "Slam dunk"....roflmao!!!

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  • 117. At 02:33am on 04 Feb 2011, U14773164 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 118. At 03:28am on 04 Feb 2011, Stevenson wrote:

    PMK,

    I thought Hanoi Jane was sexy

    but then I'm gay ...maybe I missed something.

    Did you SEE her disrobing scene in Barbarella?

    Surely you must see it (great art)

    Also, in Amazon, the haters (male) are great at appreciating THIS acting display of hers! (rightwingers, I spit on them, sp, sp, sp)

    :)

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  • 119. At 03:33am on 04 Feb 2011, Stevenson wrote:

    Oh well, at least Wikiki,

    can read, 'rite and do 'rithmetic.

    (so many caint these days)

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  • 120. At 05:10am on 04 Feb 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    95. At 7:59pm on 03 Feb 2011, DenverGuest wrote:
    Oldloadr, how about we start here:
    Torture, according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture (an advisory measure of the UN General Assembly) is:
    ...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions.
    __________________________________________________________
    There are only 3 problems with using this definition (but I think they are significant):

    1. You notice that last line about lawful sanctions? You think that was put there because most law enforcement agencies violate this definition against their own citizens (not just [allegedly] Egypt)? A good lawyer could argue due to that clause, it only applies when other rights have already been violated (e.g. habeas corpus) or on the battle field against enemy combatants.

    2. Torture used to mean inflicting physical pain, usually to the point of permanent scars or impairment (this is a better definition as it is easily verifiable). This touchy feely stuff about mental suffering IMHO is pure Bravo Sierra. If numerous lives are at stake, the comfort and psychological well-being of one individual should be of no consequence.

    3. The US insisted on a narrow definition of the term torture at the time the Senate ratified the treaty with the definition you refer to:

    http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/101750.pdf

    Even still, last year 3 Navy SEAL team members were charged with abusing a terrorist in their custody. All were acquitted in 3 separate courts-martial after it was revealed that the terrorist had inflicted his own facial wounds. Part of the evidence presented by the defense was a training manual published by Al Qaida instructing their operatives to do harm to themselves to use the West’s weak resolve against it.

    Bottom line: If Mubarak (or any other politician) was/is as bad a Tyrant as alleged, there will be other, obvious, objective evidence of obvious crimes to charge him with if the Egyptian people get the chance and want to follow through.

    BTW, you glossed over the whole habeas corpus thing.

    Another BTW: No, it should not get to the point of Cambodia’s killing fields to realize a leader has become a tyrant (hell, the Founding Fathers did it over taxes). However, we have never invaded a country solely for the way it treats those inside its borders, don’t think that’ll start any time soon.



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  • 121. At 05:17am on 04 Feb 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    97. At 8:07pm on 03 Feb 2011, DenverGuest wrote:
    So why didn't anyone do anything?
    Beacuse of ultraliberalism>?
    ------------------------------------
    Because the US Military is such a hotbed of ultraliberalism?
    _____________________________________________________________
    No, because the US military supports and defends the US constitution by obeying the orders of the federal civilian leadership. The Officer corps (particularly the Army) has been becoming more PC since the Clinton administration (of course the current administration is ultra-liberal). I hate to say it, but I believe there was a real hands-off, don’t-rock-the-boat mentality concerning Hasan due to this. So yeah, LucyJ is partially right that the root cause is liberalism, going back to the Clinton administration, but it was CYA and PC that ultimately led to the massacre at Ft. Hood.


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  • 122. At 05:27am on 04 Feb 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    103. At 9:32pm on 03 Feb 2011, Grateful Marie wrote:
    …while it’s a better time to be encouraging total separation of church and state...since what one says does have an influence....
    ______________________________________________________________
    Ah, yes, Separation of Church and State; the subject of Thomas Jefferson’s little letter to a Baptist church that has confused Americans for the last century. However, that is not for this discussion. The facts, ma’am, are these:

    The “prophet” Mohammed made sure that there would never be any separation of Mosque and State. In fact, he intended for piety and patriotism to be synonymous. Why do you think there are people in the UK demanding to hold their own courts using Sharia law.

    The best you get in the ME, is an Islamic government that tolerates other religions. Most governments of the ME have anti-proselytizing laws, written to keep down strife and “written” to prevent any overt attempts at conversion. In practice, they are only enforced to keep Christians quiet and (depending on the country) to keep either Sunnis or Shiites quiet.



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  • 123. At 05:31am on 04 Feb 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 124. At 10:51am on 04 Feb 2011, John_From_Dublin wrote:

    # 97. At 8:07pm on 03 Feb 2011, DenverGuest wrote: (to LucyJ)

    “Ultraliberalism! Ultraliberalism!
    In the words of Inugo Montoya, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."”

    LOL. As Homer S said, it’s funny because it’s true.

    To Lucy, ‘ultraliberalism’ means anyone more liberal than her – or anything she disagrees with.

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  • 125. At 12:16pm on 04 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Stevenson wrote:
    PMK,

    I thought Hanoi Jane was sexy






    So was Mata Hari according to many.. And...???


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  • 126. At 3:09pm on 04 Feb 2011, McJakome wrote:

    120. At 05:10am on 04 Feb 2011, Oldloadr

    I think it should be mentioned that there were reports that prisoners at Guantanamo claimed they were being tortured by being forced to look at unveiled female US soldiers. There is a cultural aspect to what is and isn't torture.

    If I were forced to listen to rap or hip hop for hours I would tell them anything they wanted to hear to have that torture stop. I'd call that torture, though some might call it heaven.

    Give my regards to Karama, I can still imagine the curry smell of the old souq.

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  • 127. At 7:29pm on 04 Feb 2011, Stevenson wrote:

    Ok, PMK,

    I'm going to defend Jane Fonda once--then you all are on your own.

    She came out against the Vietnam War when no other big name was. She lent her name to the cause of getting out of Vietnam.

    Also, she was trying to show that Vietnamese people were human beings worth saving from bombing or killing (one million or more Vietnamese did die during the war)

    When she went to Hanoi and posed..she admitted she lost it that moment and regrets sitting on a ....cannon...sheesh...

    But, I do think most hate her because they are not that familiar with her actual deeds or think like PMK that she was wrong.

    But she was not a traitor, just in your face and shrilly....correct

    Another thing, there are actually far leftists ("Letter to Jane" by some French male filmaker of that time--he had an impressionist painter name) that thought as a woman she was ruining the "cause" because they hated women...tho PMK, I do think, likes women.

    IMO

    :)))

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  • 128. At 00:28am on 05 Feb 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    publius wrote: Just wondering, Lucy? Are you posting on this blog during company time?
    -------
    Nope...car doors were frozen solid shut yesterday still from the one inch thick plus ice and couldn't get to work cause' couldn't even get into my car!
    I am grateful that the ice has finally melted, so can now go to work!:)
    But no, I don't blog at work cause I am driving a lot and its not a good idea to supermultitask while driving!
    --------
    Pmk wrote: I'm sure you could detect a plant when you saw one. :-)
    -------
    I sure hope so! Don't discount the females!

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  • 129. At 00:35am on 05 Feb 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    Denver wrote: I'm not that 'we'. That 'we' is more likely to be LucyJ and other blind patriots like her.
    ------------

    Hey, what can I say?

    I love my country!

    Go USA!!!!!!!!


    -----------
    oldloadr wrote: So yeah, LucyJ is partially right that the root cause is liberalism, going back to the Clinton administration, but it was CYA and PC that ultimately led to the massacre at Ft. Hood.
    ------------

    It just hurts to know someone could have potentially stopped him before and didn't...it did happen for whatever the reasona nd hopefully we have all learned that to be pc doesn't mean to let things slide til the point of no return!

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  • 130. At 00:40am on 05 Feb 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    Stevenson wrote: Did you SEE her disrobing scene in Barbarella?

    Surely you must see it (great art)
    ------------

    Barbarella was one of my fave movies growing up! :)
    (Along with Ghostbusters, Jaws and Rambo- the best!)

    Of course, as a child, you don't know about people's stances on war or romantic things or anythign else like that...also especially if the movie was made before ur time...

    I was always scared of the dolls, tho, after watching that movie, for many years...

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  • 131. At 05:14am on 05 Feb 2011, Stevenson wrote:

    Thank you LucyJ. I must admit Jane was scary but in that movie and others she was quite charming.

    Also, even though I many times disagree with you, you are always nice in your posts.

    Obviously, you do not take many opposing viewpoints as personal insults, that is quite nice:))

    I, for instance, often times, disagree with Magic Kirin and Powermeerkat, but I don't bother answering them every time I disagree...mostly because, I'm not going to change their minds.

    Though, I, myself, like Obama, and if I'm ever unemployed, I WILL appreciate his healthcare plan ...up to a point.

    :)))

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  • 132. At 05:16am on 05 Feb 2011, Stevenson wrote:

    Also, um, this idea that Egypt does not have to worry about what others think of their voting is bs.

    We all will have opinions and they will have their effect (sometimes little effects)

    I for instance believe that my opinion is important--to me :))

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  • 133. At 2:08pm on 05 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Big_Dig wrote:
    @powermeerkat, comment #18:

    "P.S. I remember stoned Flower Power peaceniks spitting on American GIs returning from Vietnam."

    No, you don't. You remember a line from Rambo that has become a favorite right-wing myth.







    Actually I do, although I doubt any of them was a BigDig.

    [bragging rights of 'fellow travellers'' aside]

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