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Obama's caution on Egypt is winning no friends

Mark Mardell | 19:02 UK time, Friday, 28 January 2011

A fire burns at the headquarters of the ruling National Democratic Party in Cairo

President Barack Obama's administration is putting pressure on the Egyptian government to change. But it is not backing a change of government. It is a critical difference.

The president's spokesman, Robert Gibbs, has said that the administration is reviewing the money it gives to Egypt. The country gets around $1.3bn (£800m) a year in military aid alone. Mere millions go to supporting democratic movements and other civilian aid.

But in a performance that did not suggest the administration had yet alighted upon a firm policy, beyond denouncing violence, the word Mr Gibbs used repeatedly was "monitoring". He suggested that if the images we are all watching continued, aid might be reduced or halted. But it scarcely felt like a strong threat. The president has not spoken to President Hosni Mubarak. The White House is watching, and waiting. The coin is still spinning, and the administration is not eager to make a wager based on how it will fall.

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has also been speaking. Her first comments were about the demonstrations themselves. She has said that she was "deeply concerned" by the police violence and urged the government (in other words, President Mubarak) to restrain them. She said the steps taken against social media should be reversed.

Then she went on to draw lessons. There were "deep grievances" and reform was "critical" and "imperative", she said. The Egyptian government should see its people as partners, not as a threat. This is a change of tone, not so much from the past day or two, but from what went before.

There is plenty of evidence for the prosecution. I have just watched an Egyptian journalist on BBC World television say that the tear gas canisters fired by police were made in the US. Over dramatic pictures of billowing smoke, he says America likes strong men without democratic backing, because "it is easy to pick up the phone and tell the leader what is expected from them".

In the Washington Post, Jackson Diehl argues that while President George W Bush pushed for democratic reform, Barack Obama, believing he was being more pragmatic, embraced Mr Mubarak. Mr Diehl says it may be remembered as "one of the most short-sighted and wrongheaded policies the United States has ever pursued in the Middle East".

So some see Mrs Clinton's statement today and Mr Obama's yesterday as furiously back-pedalling away from a policy doomed to failure.

Yasser M El-Shimy is an expert on US policy in the Middle East, who lived in Egypt for 25 years but is now in the process of becoming an American citizen. He tells me that the Obama approach is the wrong side of a thin line.

If there is a democratic revolution, US-Egyptian relationships are in for a world of trouble. They think they can walk a fine line but the Egyptian public is listening to what they have been saying about the government being stable. There will be some anti-US sentiment among the protesters because they believe the US has been trying to prop up the regime until the last moment.

Some are openly arguing the opposite point of view, that democracy would "open up the flood gates" to Islamic revolution.

But one British think tank, Quilliam argues fear of the banned Muslim Brotherhood is over-played, not least by the organisation itself.

Brotherhood claims to be the "only real opposition" to dictatorial regimes in the Middle East should be viewed with a considerable amount of scepticism in future. Given the opportunity, many people in the Arab countries clearly prefer civil, non-sectarian parties over Islamists.

Mr El-Shimy agrees, telling me the idea of the Muslim Brotherhood lurking in the shadows waiting to take over is false. He argues that it is Mr Mubarak's policy of regression that has allowed it to flourish, and that in a real democracy it would be a power in the land, but not the dominant one.

There seems little doubt the US administration is playing catch-up, and is in a very awkward position. It is not ready to abandon its octogenarian ally of 30 years, but it is urging him to change and change quickly. This is all moving very quickly but at the moment both the White House and the US state department are being ignored by their allies, while not going far enough to make new friends.

Comments

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  • 1. At 7:51pm on 28 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    Well we have to remember that relations between Ireland and Great Britain are supervised by Hilary Clinton....and I can`t imagine Adams and McGuiness would be power sharing if the USA didn`t really call the shots in the British Isles.

    Would it be a refreshing start to a return to political reality if Egyptians and Irish and British people knew who was running their countries?

    Half of mankind`s problems seem to stem from the difference between the official or de jure stories they are told bout their government....and the often very different de facto world they sense is
    actually "where it`s at".

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  • 2. At 8:06pm on 28 Jan 2011, Simon Arter wrote:

    It is a bit disheartening to see the USA thinking of their own gains/losses in this situation. The potential of this revolution in Arab nations will shape the region for generations to come and maybe for the better.
    With this being a popular uprising and not a fundamentalist one could this be the beginning of a wave of moderate democratic Arab states?

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  • 3. At 8:33pm on 28 Jan 2011, UTEChirps wrote:

    Put aside US Foreign Policy bashing for a minute.

    The same civil unrest pattern is repeating itself across North Africa and beyond. What is poignant is that we have a mechanism for financially bankrupt countries (EMF), but there is no similar mechanism for politically bankrupt countries.

    When the tear gas settles in Egypt, whatever the outcome, who or what steps in to fill the transition space before a functional government can be established? Don't forget it took Turkey some 30 years to transition from autocratic Sultanate to modern democracy. Probably the region will still be trying to sort this out for many years to come.

    Can the people of the region or the global community afford 30 years of unrest?

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  • 4. At 8:55pm on 28 Jan 2011, DenverGuest wrote:

    MM Wrote: In the Washington Post, Jackson Diehl argues that while President George W Bush pushed for democratic reform, Barack Obama, believing he was being more pragmatic, embraced Mr Mubarak. Mr Diehl says it may be remembered as "one of the most short-sighted and wrongheaded policies the United States has ever pursued in the Middle East".
    ------------------------------------------------
    That's more than a little bit unfair.
    GWB was awfully chummy with Mubarak, despite all his bluster about 'democracy in the Arab world'.

    Source: The American Presidency Project
    Remarks Following Discussions With President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt and an Exchange With Reporters, April 2, 2001
    President Bush: Of course, it is my honor to welcome the President of Egypt here to the Oval Office. I had the honor of meeting the President a couple of years ago. I found him to be an engaging, charming, strong leader then; my opinion hasn't changed after our good, frank discussion today.
    We're friends. We will remain friends. And we will work together to bring peace to the Middle East, and we'll work together to try to convince all parties involved to lay down their arms, so there would be less violence. I'm also committed to working with the President on relations—economic relations that will be to the advantage of both our countries.
    And so it is my high honor to welcome President Mubarak here to the Oval Office and to the United States.

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  • 5. At 9:03pm on 28 Jan 2011, Jackturk wrote:

    America hasn't been concerned about the plight of the Egyptian people for the last thirty years and it isn't concerned now. Its main concern is in protecting the apartheid state of Israel and hoping that its shameful practice of sending renditioned prisoners to Egypt for torture and liquidation is not further exposed.

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  • 6. At 9:19pm on 28 Jan 2011, davis wrote:

    If only the US actually followed the principles it claims to hold dear. It invades one Arab country when no one asked it to with disastrous results and now it stands by and does nothing when theres a real opportunity to give 50m people the democracy they long for.

    If the US stopped thinking only of it's own interests and actually acted out of principle, wouldn't we all be better off in the long run?

    I know, I'm very naive and "un-serious".

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  • 7. At 9:24pm on 28 Jan 2011, Jackturk wrote:

    Ah, I get it BBC moderators, because my post mentioned that America's main interest is in protecting Israel, is a little too controversial for the sensibilities of Americans who read this blog, you have referred my post.

    A similar post was published on the Have Your Say page and it wasn't censored like this.

    So much for openness!

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  • 8. At 9:31pm on 28 Jan 2011, Jackturk wrote:

    Published on "Have Your Say":-

    "In Egypt, one of America's favourite places to send their extraordinary renditioned prisoners for torture and 'disappearing', America will be terrified if true democracy breaks out. It could mean that America's dirty deeds, supported by the Blair regime, will be exposed.

    It could also mean that the Rafah crossing from Gaza to Egypt, long kept closed by the American puppet Mubarak, will be opened, putting further pressure on the apartheid state of Israel."

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  • 9. At 9:50pm on 28 Jan 2011, lochraven wrote:

    Ok, here we go again. Damned if you do; damned if you don't. Do something. No, mind your own business.
    I think Obama's approach is correct in trying to influence change. Threatening people or countries never works and causes more problems. So tell me, what are other countries doing about Egypt? Keeping your hands in your pockets, and doing nothing.

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  • 10. At 9:54pm on 28 Jan 2011, Bro_Winky wrote:

    As the geographic location of the Suez Canal, developments in the political situation in Egypt should be followed closely. I can only hope that this results in a truly stabilizing and democratic government that the Egyptian people are satisfied with. If, however, some form of radical movement somehow gains power, and likely tries to extend its influence over the canal, it would be a disaster. It's very doubtful any Western power would tolerate this, and it would likely lead to conflict.

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  • 11. At 10:00pm on 28 Jan 2011, john wrote:

    Well, here we are in the US with an amateur at the helm...sorry about that, folks, we'll fix things in 2012...

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  • 12. At 10:00pm on 28 Jan 2011, reincarnation wrote:

    The TV pictures from North Africa are rather reminiscent of those from Eastern Europe as Communism collapsed.

    An interesting commentary from a foreigner on the streets is given here

    (but it seems I can't direct you to it, as the BBC appears to classify the news site as "profane" - odd people).

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  • 13. At 10:21pm on 28 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    9 I sympathise lochraven ...but I am not sure if Britain and America would be "damned if we don`t" intervene.
    We are no longer rich enough to fight expensive wars for the benefit of international financiers....if we ever were.

    And who are "we"? I don`t recall having ANY real say in what our virtual one party state has done with public money ....or how they spend it in the Middle East! Though I can guess who gets the lion`s share!

    But government priorities speak volumes about who and what it REALLY cares about..."foreign aid".. wars...trillions on bailing out Wall Street`s fraud and folly...a European Union that costs us fifty million pounds a day....etc etc.

    There`s no shortage of MY money for all those ruinously expensive things!

    But here`s the real joke....come election time no party even mentions these issues...there`s a lot of false fuss about education and health!

    Democracy? Never mind about democracy in Egypt...what about England?

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  • 14. At 10:31pm on 28 Jan 2011, Andy Post wrote:

    Mark:

    Did you catch Jim Lehrer's interview with the Vice President last night? I think this entry is incomplete without taking Biden's comments into account (though your conclusions might very well stay the same).

    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/jan-june11/biden_01-27.html

    _________________________________________

    I don't think there is anything the U.S. can or should do. Poverty and powerlessness (not Islam) are the root causes behind unhappiness across the Arab world. It's time for those governments to be responsive to their people.

    In the short term that may cause America problems, but really, nothing we've tried has worked. This time we should just watch from the sidelines. Nobody gains anything from further American interference.

    Personally, I side with protesters, no matter how much they despise me and my kind. Power to the People!

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  • 15. At 10:41pm on 28 Jan 2011, crash wrote:

    Do people really think this president is going to stick his neck out in anyway at all ?If you did you have not been paying attention.

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  • 16. At 10:54pm on 28 Jan 2011, McJakome wrote:

    Déjà vu, this puts me in mind of Jimmy Carter an the Shah of Iran. Jimmy Carter opted to yank the carpet out from under the Shah, so that the people of Iran could have a more democratic regime.

    This is a cautionary tale about unexpected consequences, the likelihood that the expected can be counted on in the Middle East, and the danger of proceding to quickly to alter direction in that region. On the other hand, proceding to slowly could also have bad results.

    In conclusion, we should never have meddled in that area of the world, should not be meddling now and should refrain from meddling there in the future.

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  • 17. At 11:05pm on 28 Jan 2011, davis wrote:

    "Well, here we are in the US with an amateur at the helm...sorry about that, folks, we'll fix things in 2012..."

    Yeah right, because which party holds the White House makes a difference to US foreign policy! The only thing that changes is the presentation.

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  • 18. At 11:09pm on 28 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    16...If only someone had listened to you in the last century JMM...but just Wiki our British "Iraq" project ....from the moment we created Iraq in the 1920`s onwards until your CIA took over....and beyond!

    This oil is a total curse...and you do wonder whether all our medling isn`t going to bring us back into another world war.

    Our stupid liberals keep twittering about women`s rights and human rights .....but what about the human right to be LEFT ALONE TO MIND YOUR OWN COUNTRY`S BUSINESS?

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  • 19. At 11:13pm on 28 Jan 2011, davis wrote:

    "Ok, here we go again. Damned if you do; damned if you don't. Do something. No, mind your own business."

    I know Americans struggle with nuance but don't you think it's possible that different situations require different approaches? The world is pretty complicated you know.

    When America acts, it's usually out of self-interest and rarely for the greater good. More often than not, it's a negative for the majority of people affected. When America chooses not to act, the same applies. That's the problem.

    It's not just the US of course, but what angers people is the stunning hypocrisy you hear from folks like Obama and Clinton and the fact that the US is more involved in the affairs of other countries than most.

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  • 20. At 11:37pm on 28 Jan 2011, Gat wrote:

    Very sad the way Obama is supporting a dictator. On one hand USA invades Iraq to promote democracy and on other hand it protects supports funds arms world known dictators like Mubarak, Musharraf and many more. How sad for World peace. When yes WHEN will respectable Obama and US administration realise that they cannot fool everbody all the time. Obama's unfair policies in international relations are being severly exposed but does he feel any shame? Very sad

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  • 21. At 11:39pm on 28 Jan 2011, reincarnation wrote:

    18. worcesterjim
    "Our stupid liberals keep twittering about women`s rights and human rights .....but what about the human right to be LEFT ALONE TO MIND YOUR OWN COUNTRY`S BUSINESS?"

    Apart from the strange implication in your post that women aren't human (else why would you distinguish between them), exactly what is your "own country" if you are a Kurd?

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  • 22. At 11:42pm on 28 Jan 2011, Scott0962 wrote:

    re.#19. At 11:13pm on 28 Jan 2011, davidw76 wrote:
    "When America acts, it's usually out of self-interest and rarely for the greater good. More often than not, it's a negative for the majority of people affected. When America chooses not to act, the same applies. That's the problem."

    Show me a nation which doesn't base it's foreign policy on it's own self interest. Even when decisons are made to extand a hand to other nations it is motivated by a belief that such cooperation is in the long term best interest of the nation doing it, not our of some touchy feely sense of brotherhood with all mankind.

    "It's not just the US of course, but what angers people is the stunning hypocrisy you hear from folks like Obama and Clinton and the fact that the US is more involved in the affairs of other countries than most."

    A valid criticism and one shared by many Americans frustrated by their government opting for "stabilty" as a guiding priciple in foreign relations at the expense of the principles our nation was founded on. America is most respected and our long term interests best served when we base our policies upon the ideals we profess to believe in and not on a sense of "realpolitik" that makes us prop up dictators at the expense of the aspirations of people for freedom and the right to have a governments that works with them instead of against them.

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  • 23. At 11:46pm on 28 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    19 That`s a point David...but how much are American`s told...and what are they told?

    What amazes me is how Wall Sreet have wrecked the world economy in 2006 like they did in 1929...but not only are they walking away richer ....but the rest of the world (and a lot of ordinary Americans) are having to pay for it all!

    And Washington still acts like the saviour of the world !

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  • 24. At 11:58pm on 28 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    21 reincarnation....I am not a Kurd so you will have to address your question elsewhere. I am sick of being lectured by professional umbridge takers ...who seem to have taken over MY country!

    It`s simply not practical or fair to meddle in other countries...the Kurds were probably better off before we created Iraq ...and I realise that until the USA bullies the EU into taking Turkey into their fold most Kurds will have to stay put.

    Once in the EU I imagine many Kurds will arrive in London.

    Despite my tone ..you have my sympathy...but we just can`t go on absorbing everyone who wishes to come here if we are to avoid yet more injustice to our own underclass.

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  • 25. At 00:09am on 29 Jan 2011, davis wrote:

    "Show me a nation which doesn't base it's foreign policy on it's own self interest. Even when decisons are made to extand a hand to other nations it is motivated by a belief that such cooperation is in the long term best interest of the nation doing it, not our of some touchy feely sense of brotherhood with all mankind."

    Agreed. But I can't help but wonder if the US wouldn't be better served by a little less pragmatism and a little more principle. I think US foreign policy is too cynical and I don't think it's working.

    Think of the cost of the adventure in Iraq, and for what? And here is a golden opportunity to help to deliver democracy to 50m people. It would change public opinion in the middle east toward the US and make a hard line Islamist government much less likely. By helping to keep Mubarak in power, we just achieve the opposite and make those outcomes more inevitable in the long run.

    It's just the same short-sighted, narrow vision as always.. we can't have a democratic Muslim nation controlling the Suez canal and a border with Israel.. we can't trust them! Yes, we believe in democracy, just not for these people.

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  • 26. At 00:10am on 29 Jan 2011, MagicKirin wrote:

    Remember Obama gave no support to the protesters in Iran. He even refused to cal the election a fraud, even though the whole world knew it.

    But no should rejice if El Baredi (a terrorist supporter) or the Muslin Brotherhood gain power.

    Like Iran a dictator is better than an islamic theocracy

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  • 27. At 00:25am on 29 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    Crocodile tears --and false ones at that !

    The ´Palestine Papers´ showed the true American foreign diplomacy in action.

    Middle and South Americans heard the same -- and look what happened to them-- Dictators all over the place, as in the Middle East --with a couple of wars thrown in.

    The Egyptian army Chief of Staff has left Washington -- THEN Mubarak made his speech.

    The 1.5 Billion will not be given if the US does not get its way --and as many countries know -- the money goes when the Dictator goes !

    The American Empire is copying the mistakes of the British Empire.

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  • 28. At 00:33am on 29 Jan 2011, mariein wrote:

    14. At 10:31pm on 28 Jan 2011, Andy Post wrote a good post.
    _____________________________________
    Anger expressed as rage is caused by repression. We need to just let it happen. It is happening. Good on the protestors.
    It’s hopeful to hear that many of the protestors are young and secular Egyptians. It would be great if they had an agreement about someone – now - to replace Mubarak the second he was out (if he goes). Even just a temp or figurehead, but someone who's one of them. In order to better secure the government from Islamic extremism (Sharia law). In other words, in order to better secure their early form of freedom. (Just wishful thinking/suggesting for them.)
    _____________________________________

    worcesterjim,

    I don’t know what you’re about, but I’m not on twitter, and haven’t talked to anyone today who is, so I heard it from you first: I’m so glad to hear that women are tweeting their concerns about their rights as women and oh wow as humans - imagine that.

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  • 29. At 00:34am on 29 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    --- and for those who are young, the massive aid began as a reward for Egypt´s peace deal with Israel-- So guess when it will be withdrawn !!!

    --- not for the lack of Egyptian democracy !

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  • 30. At 01:27am on 29 Jan 2011, BienvenueEnLouisiana wrote:

    Simon Arter: "It is a bit disheartening to see the USA thinking of their own gains/losses in this situation."

    It's the way the world works; should we not care about our interests?
    Do you?

    davidw76: "don't you think it's possible that different situations require different approaches?"

    Exactly, that's why the US is not going to intervene; let them sort it out for themselves. We'll work with whatever government emerges.

    Gat: "Very sad the way Obama is supporting a dictator. On one hand USA invades Iraq to promote democracy and on other hand it protects supports funds arms world known dictators like Mubarak, Musharraf and many more."

    It's sad that people expect the US to overthrow all of the middle east.
    If we were to do that tomorrow, we'd be vilified as Imperialists more than we already are. If the US had decided never to work with dictators and monarchists in the middle east then there would be less than a handful of countries that we'd have decent relations with. Egypt is so strategic that unrest naturally gives us pause. Where is your Saratoga moment?



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  • 31. At 01:36am on 29 Jan 2011, DebtJuggler wrote:

    MAYBE THIS IS THE TYPE OF INFLUENCE THAT EGYPT IS TRYING TO FREE ITSELF FROM!


    Two articles written just before the Credit Crunch with the recommendation that they be read together:

    http://www.jewishworldreview.com/joe/aaron101007.php3
    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/oct2007/usa-o16.shtml

    The suggestion is that most of us dismally fail to put things together which we should, and that we make completely the wrong inferences instead.

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  • 32. At 02:14am on 29 Jan 2011, Tinkersdamn wrote:

    No nation can "give" democracy to any other people. Any assertion that it can is a bald-faced falsehood. Democracy can only be "achieved" by a people for themselves- period.

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  • 33. At 03:14am on 29 Jan 2011, berult wrote:

    Mr.Mardell, President Obama's mixture of patience, principles and determination has served him well in his first two years in Office. Republicans and Democrats alike co-opted against their collective will into Obama's ambitious agenda. His popularity suffered obviously from the ensuing tension but, what the process taketh the end result giveth ...with much interest on the investment. Barrack Obama esquire is a master of political capital management. He grows on the People's growing on its President.

    If your yardstick is the Washington Post, the Main Stream Media's take on The President, mine is the thread of his accomplishments woven tightly into the American organic tapestry. The former breeds ephemeral entertainment, the latter seeds a civil construct... into star spangled perennity.

    Hosni Mubarak's most implacable foe will turn out to be the convergence of an overflowing and seething passion of the Egyptian People for dignified self-determination, and the controlled idealistic efficiency of an authentically Presidential by measurable precedents, and "prudent" President.

    Prudence is, in the arsenal of the present President, a weapon of mass instruction aimed squarely at the politically indigent. He doesn't blink, he insidiously trolls feign ignorance until it yields to fairness and compassion. As any serious Journalist should actually.

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  • 34. At 03:59am on 29 Jan 2011, davis wrote:

    Of the people defending US foreign policy, I wonder how many would be doing so if Bush was still president. It's amazing what a bit of brand engineering can do.

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  • 35. At 04:10am on 29 Jan 2011, davis wrote:

    "No nation can "give" democracy to any other people. Any assertion that it can is a bald-faced falsehood. Democracy can only be "achieved" by a people for themselves- period."

    Bingo! That's why invading Iraq was so wrong-headed. What the US +could+ do is +help+ in those places where people are already fighting for their freedom and I think it would pay the US to do so.

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  • 36. At 06:10am on 29 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    If (big if) Obama could cut the legs out from under the enviro-geeks of his party, open ANWAR, open all off-shore oil fields (in spite of the tourism lobby) and develop cookie cutter nuclear power plants like the (I hate to say it) the French then would the US really have any “national interest” in the ME? Would the US really care if the Suez Canal shut down again? As I have mentioned (and had much reaction to) my support for Israel’s right to exist, however, it’s time to take care of the US first (just like every other country).

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  • 37. At 07:54am on 29 Jan 2011, mohammed yaseen wrote:

    The spectacular uprising of Egyptian people against the tyrant Hosni Mubarak tells the story of Egypt. It also shows the double standard of USA and its allies. While the same uprising took place last year against the Iranian ELECTED President, there was overwhelming support to the demonstrators by the USA and West. Now they are persuing the policy of "wait and watch".

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  • 38. At 08:11am on 29 Jan 2011, JClarkson wrote:

    #37 "Now they are persuing the policy of "wait and watch"."


    Yes. Two different countries, two different policies. Is Egypt meddling in Iraq? Is Egypt working on nuclear weapons? Is Egypt anything like Iran, in fact? No?

    Might explain it.

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  • 39. At 08:14am on 29 Jan 2011, JClarkson wrote:

    #14

    "Poverty and powerlessness (not Islam) are the root causes behind unhappiness across the Arab world."

    Really? How come the poor of Africa are not blowing themselves up then? Have you heard those threats against Israel, from Ethiopia?

    Me neither.

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  • 40. At 08:46am on 29 Jan 2011, Doerni wrote:

    Where are our demonstrations in support of democratic freedom for Egypt? All of us who peacefully demonstrated against the invasion of Iraq should now do the same for the people of Egypt. If the time has come for a despot to fall in a relatively peaceful way and without war, then all peace loving people should support this with all their means.

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  • 41. At 09:10am on 29 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    40. At 08:46am on 29 Jan 2011, Doernie wrote:
    ... If the time has come for a despot to fall in a relatively peaceful way and without war, then all peace loving people should support this with all their means.
    _________________________________________________
    Wow! An idealistic, pacifistic flower child… in 2011! I’m impressed that you have been able to keep your ideology all of these years. You could be right, but there will be no “peaceful demonstrations” because nobody has figured out a way to tie this uprising and the establishment reaction to it to GWB or Tony Blair. After all, we have a leftist hero in the White House. Who is going to demonstrate peaceably?

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  • 42. At 09:23am on 29 Jan 2011, BienvenueEnLouisiana wrote:

    mohammed yaseen: "The spectacular uprising of Egyptian people against the tyrant Hosni Mubarak tells the story of Egypt. It also shows the double standard of USA and its allies. While the same uprising took place last year against the Iranian ELECTED President, there was overwhelming support to the demonstrators by the USA and West. Now they are persuing the policy of 'wait and watch'."

    Oh..that's right, because Egypt's moderately oppressive government is obviously as much a threat to the world as a nuclear weapon seeking theocratic Iran and its Holocaust denying "President". What you fail to realize is that the US has a complex relationship with Egypt going back 30 years; we're not about to throw it away by recklessly intervening.

    Asking Mubarak to make certain timely concessions to the people of Egypt in exchange for continued US aid to Egypt is a far more sensible policy for the US than pulling the entire rug out from underneath him. If the Egyptians manage to topple Mubarak and create a real democratic republic, I am confident that Americans will welcome the change and congratulate Egyptians on joining the club of democratic nations.

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  • 43. At 09:37am on 29 Jan 2011, MagicKirin wrote:

    Why do so many think this will end in ademocratic gtoverment.

    the moslem brotherhood thrives on ontolerance and El Baredi has supported dictatorship and theocracies throughout his infamous career.

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  • 44. At 09:37am on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    MM: "the word Mr Gibbs used repeatedly was "monitoring".

    Not surprising since what his boss has been doing re Iraq and Afghanistan has been basically just that: "monitoring".

    [O.K., also "containing" ;-)]
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------ONE CANNOT HALF-FIGHT AND HALF-WIN ANY MORE ONE CAN GET HALF-PREGNANT.

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  • 45. At 09:40am on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    MM: "The president has not spoken to President Hosni Mubarak."




    How can we improve the situation if Barack doesn't speak to Mubarak?

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  • 46. At 09:44am on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    MM: Over dramatic pictures of billowing smoke, he [BBC man]
    says America likes strong men without democratic backing, because "it is easy to pick up the phone and tell the leader what is expected from them".







    I don't recall calling Messrs. Hujintao and Putin directly doing much.

    [in the first case re N. Korea, in the second - re Caucasus]

    Do you there at BBC?

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  • 47. At 09:48am on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    MM: "In the Washington Post, Jackson Diehl argues that while President George W Bush pushed for democratic reform, Barack Obama, believing he was being more pragmatic, embraced Mr Mubarak."






    With every passing month a much maligned "W" seems to look better&better.

    In comparison to his so much more "pragmatic" successor.

    ["suck up some more, suck up some more"]

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  • 48. At 09:50am on 29 Jan 2011, Doerni wrote:

    "An idealistic, pacifistic flower child...." Not sure about that, but thanks anyway. ______
    But just to state the point again, and as far as I can judge from the media reports, this seems to be a popular uprising against a 30 year dictator - and there seem to be no religious or military undetones. So I just think that right minded people should put on their shoes and walk the streets in support. This would show our political leaders what we think and I am sure would help the people of Egypt at this difficult time.

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  • 49. At 09:53am on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Given the opportunity, many people in the Arab countries clearly prefer civil, non-sectarian parties over Islamists."





    The key phrase: "GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY"!


    And what, pray, opportunities do those people really have?

    Inquiring minds want to know.

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  • 50. At 09:56am on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    MM: "Mr El-Shimy agrees, telling me the idea of the Muslim Brotherhood lurking in the shadows waiting to take over is false."





    Premier Hariri doesn't seem to think the idea of Hezbollah taking over control of Lebanon on behalf of Iran is false.

    I wonder why. :-))))))

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  • 51. At 10:00am on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    worcesterjim wrote:
    Well we have to remember that relations between Ireland and Great Britain are supervised by Hilary Clinton....




    May I kindly refer you to CBW's post #68 in Gavin Hewitt's Euro blog?

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  • 52. At 10:16am on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #13 Democracy? Never mind about democracy in Egypt...what about England?





    Are you demanding a referendum on UK remaining a part of a certain superstate? [no, not the U.S. :-)]

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  • 53. At 10:20am on 29 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    Has anyone thought seriously about asking the Muslim world if there is any way the capitalist world (which is NOT RUN by nations but by Wall Street and the network of global financial markets)whether we can do a deal and bring peace to the world?

    A peace conference with Osama Bin Laden...for example?

    Let`s throw away the old rule book and stop pretending that we have been anything much more than a bunch of thieving bullying pirates for centuries.

    Our behaviour has actually been blasphemous ...if we really believe in the Bible...yet we sit atop the world meddling and bombing and murdering while our inflated self-righteous views seem to suggest that WE believe that we have moral authority over the world...WHO DO WE THINK WE ARE?

    Some of you Americans remind me of the adults around me when I was a child here in England.

    They had no doubt that Arabs and Jews and Africans and Indians were inferior dishonest people who they patronised at best and viewed with disrespectuful suspicion...NOT as equals or fellow members of the human race....and absolutely not as our superiors....goodness no!

    Well look at us NOW.....taken to the cleaners and brought low by 9/11 and Wall Street`s financial jiggery-pokery....in debt to the world and spending far more than we can conceivably repay!WHO CARES WHAT WE THINK ANY MORE?

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  • 54. At 10:20am on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #16JMM wrote:
    Déjà vu, this puts me in mind of Jimmy Carter an the Shah of Iran.








    JMM: Since you've remarked earlier on a futility of speculating on what could have been...


    One might also wonder whether Moscow would have dared to invade Afghanistan had Jimmy Carter reacted strongly and swiftly to Soviet military interventions (by its Cuban proxies) in Angola and Mozambique.

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  • 55. At 10:22am on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Scott: "Show me a nation which doesn't base it's foreign policy on it's own self interest"


    China? Russia? ;-)

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  • 56. At 10:25am on 29 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    48. At 09:50am on 29 Jan 2011, Doernie wrote:
    So I just think that right minded people should put on their shoes and walk the streets in support. This would show our political leaders what we think and I am sure would help the people of Egypt at this difficult time.
    ______________________________________________
    2 thoughts:

    1. In the sense that we should support democracy wherever it is trying to take root, you are right. However, sustained protests in the western world have always required some type of organizing body. Consider the Viet Nam era anti war protests; they were organized by left wing radical groups using the true peace-niks as pawns with the goal of wearing down public support for a “right wing war” against their fellow travelers. Likewise the anti-GLCM rallies in the UK and the FRG were sponsored by the KGB (no surprise there). Did you notice in the current wars, there has been no huge anti-war demonstrations because: a. there is no draft so no C-level college student is fearing for his life and b. There is no organization that supports the status quo that existed in either Iraq or Af’stan.

    2. It may appear that there are no religious overtones in the Egyptian uprising, but that doesn’t mean the Islamic parties (already organized and ready to campaign) won’t take over as soon as there is a power vacuum. Remember, in the ME, democracy doesn’t equate to freedom, but usually the opposite. As soon as there is a viable, freely elected parliament, personal liberties and livelihoods will start to suffer. Should we accept that as the cost of supporting our founding values? Maybe, but are you willing to break the news to the poor Egyptian Coptic pig farmer as the Mutawah (religious police) slaughter and burn his family’s livelihood? So, there are probably a lot of idealistic people who remember how democracy went in Iran that don’t want their name added to the history books as helping Egypt become a theocracy.

    BTW, I’m not saying I think you’re wrong, just that above are some of the many nuances (as the Europeans are fond of that word) that people with the position and the following to organize demonstrations will consider (either consciously or unconsciously).

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  • 57. At 10:27am on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    , worcesterjim wrote:
    16...If only someone had listened to you in the last century JMM...but just Wiki our British "Iraq" project ....from the moment we created Iraq in the 1920`s onwards until your CIA took over....and beyond!







    I guess you comrades have to decide whether CIA has been an incompetent, passive outfit unable to predict Islamic Revolution in Iran and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan or an omnipotent Great Satan responsible for all tsunamis, earthquakes and floods affecting America's enemies.

    [by secretely detonating our HAARP weapons :-))))))))))))))))))))))))))]

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  • 58. At 10:32am on 29 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    51 Thanks PMK..I am very interested in Wall Street`s European Union project (as run by Queen Hilary and George Soros and the CIA)...so I will pop along later and look at Gavin`s blog.

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  • 59. At 10:33am on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Andy Post: "Personally, I side with protesters, no matter how much they despise me and my kind. Power to the People!"









    "First they came for the Jews. But I didn't speak out for I wasn't a Jew.

    Then they came for Catholics. But I didn't speak out for I wasn't..etc."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "ONE DAY AMERICAN IMPERIALISTS WILL SELL US WITH JOY THE ROPE UPON WHICH WILL HANG THEM"

    (Vladimir Iliych Lenin)

    "useful idiots" [ditto]

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  • 60. At 10:41am on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    JMay wrote:
    #37 "Now they are persuing the policy of "wait and watch"."


    Yes. Two different countries, two different policies. Is Egypt meddling in Iraq? Is Egypt working on nuclear weapons? Is Egypt anything like Iran, in fact? No?

    Might explain it.








    Might, but it won't to global Sharia-based caliphate's aficionados here.



    Since Egypt, for the last 40 plus years has staunchly refused to get involved in a jihad, or a 'holy war' against 'Zionist entity'

    [to use Mr. Ahamdinnerjacket's parlance]

    Now, this obviously cannot stand, can it? ;-)

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  • 61. At 10:45am on 29 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    57...I don`t think ANYONE is the great satan or that there are omnipotent people anywhere.

    My guess is that I would find many Islamists and many members of the CIA very good company and thoroughly well intentioned sincere people....but it`s how they view the world and what they are trying to achieve that bothers me.....and we get no say over that....because (just like with the financial markets)they are not a direct and transparent part of the democratic process.

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  • 62. At 10:46am on 29 Jan 2011, reincarnation wrote:

    39. JMay
    "Really? How come the poor of Africa are not blowing themselves up then?"

    I think you will find that a number of Nigerians, Eritreans et al have : and that self-immolation has been a notable catalyst in the North African revolutions.

    "Have you heard those threats against Israel, from Ethiopia?"

    That might be something to do with the largest religion in Ethiopia being Orthodox Christianity.

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  • 63. At 10:51am on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    36. At 06:10am on 29 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:
    If (big if) Obama could cut the legs out from under the enviro-geeks of his party, open ANWAR, open all off-shore oil fields (in spite of the tourism lobby) and develop cookie cutter nuclear power plants like the (I hate to say it) the French then would the US really have any “national interest” in the ME?






    Oladloadr, I know that you know that I know that not a single new nuclear plant has been built in these United States in the last 20 years.

    Although merely fifty 6 Gigawatts (each) such plants would allow any U.S. government (Republican AND Democrat) to say 'f...you" to any unsavory oil exporting authoritarian regime.

    [from Algeria to Venezuela]

    P.S. For the record: close to 80% of all the energy France is using comes from its nuclear plants.;

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  • 64. At 11:00am on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Should we accept that as the cost of supporting our founding values? Maybe, but are you willing to break the news to the poor Egyptian Coptic pig farmer as the Mutawah (religious police) slaughter and burn his family’s livelihood?"






    Surely, Oldloadr, you know that in many ME cultures pig meat is not kosher?

    [since they didn't any have refrigeration [invented only by ...:-))))))]

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  • 65. At 11:05am on 29 Jan 2011, reincarnation wrote:

    64. powermeerkat
    "since they didn't any have refrigeration [invented only by ..." the Inuit.

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  • 66. At 11:08am on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    worcesterjim wrote:
    51 Thanks PMK..I am very interested in Wall Street`s European Union project (as run by Queen Hilary and George Soros and the CIA.







    Thta's quite interesting, worcesterjim, since the Company never, as a matter of its policy, confirms or denies any involvment in any project.:)

    [Nor that German BND or French Surete ever does.

    Let alone Russian SVR. :-]

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  • 67. At 11:18am on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #42 Bienvenue-en-Louisiana

    "Egypt's moderately oppressive government is obviously as much a threat to the world as a nuclear weapon seeking theocratic Iran and its Holocaust denying "President"."








    Obviously Mobile/Exxon has been as much a threat to the livelihood of Louisiana's citizes as British Petroleum.

    [run by Hillary Clinton/Soros/CIA? :-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))]
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    NEVER DENIGRATE 'USEFUL IDIOTS'; THEY HAVE A VERY USEFUL FUNCTION"

    (Vladimir I. LENIN)

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  • 68. At 11:23am on 29 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    64. At 11:00am on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:
    Surely, Oldloadr, you know that in many ME cultures pig meat is not kosher?
    ________________________________________________


    What I know is when the Swine Flu scare hit the last time, we here in the UAE went months without pork since the fearful leaders of the ME blocked all shipments from the west. Of course, our Muslim neighbors were quick to tell us, “We told you pork was bad for you!” It was hard to get them to grasp that you couldn’t get swine flu from a ham sandwich.

    It is ironic which 2 groups of people don’t eat pork because it’s not kosher (halal). ;)

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  • 69. At 11:32am on 29 Jan 2011, U14752247 wrote:

    Terrorism is the new growth industry for taking control over the world. It is all about business, power, drugs and guns. The stakes are high in terms of land to be gained and even a losing battle is a money spinner for leaders of various groups just like US wars are.

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  • 70. At 11:42am on 29 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    69...Very true..but is it possible to install any effective governance over these shadowy organisations?

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  • 71. At 11:42am on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re George Soros...[an evil individual almost as powerful as evil CIA].


    "Comrades" might want to remember that had it not not been for the Russian invasion of Hungary in 1956, Soros, as many other Hungarian escapees, would have still been a non-entity in that very small country.

    [How soon they conveniently forget!]
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    LONG LIVE THE MOTHERLAND OF THE WORLD PROLETARIAT!

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  • 72. At 11:45am on 29 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    66 PMK...How is it very interesting and please don`t start suggesting I am a Russian spy posting under a range of different names AGAIN.....look in the mirror to find your closest case of multiple personality.. Worzel Gummage!

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  • 73. At 11:49am on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    reincarnation wrote:
    39. JMay
    "Really? How come the poor of Africa are not blowing themselves up then?"

    "Have you heard those threats against Israel, from Ethiopia?"

    That might be something to do with the largest religion in Ethiopia being Orthodox Christianity."






    A pretty good one.


    A question: How come that despite an awfull oppresion we don't hear about Tibetan Buddhists blowing up Chinese or any other airliners?


    [Inquiring minds want to know]
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    TERRORISM IS A WEAPON OF CHOICE OF VERITABLE BARBARIANS!

    [supported by other barbarians]

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  • 74. At 11:56am on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #61 wostershirejim :My guess is that I would find many Islamists and many members of the CIA very good company"






    Not really.

    CIA wasfor so many decades targeting Soviet Commies, that when 9/11 hanppened it was discovered there were no bona fide ME experts, let alone fluent Arabic speakers in that outfit.

    And some had to be recruited ouside of D.C. mosques. ;-)

    [a great way to get some 'sleepers' in, btw.]

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  • 75. At 12:04pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    reincarnation wrote:
    64. powermeerkat
    "since they didn't any have refrigeration [invented only by ..." the Inuit.







    Correct. Exccept most of us don't live in permafrost areas.

    Be that Canada or be that Russian NE Siberia, from which inhabitans started to escape to America already some 15 thousand years ago.

    Taking advantage of the fact there were no US Border Patrols on the Alaskan side of the Bering Strait land bridge then.

    (btw. Today they're known as NATIVE Americans. :-)))))))))))))))))))))))]

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  • 76. At 12:12pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Oldloadr from UAE:
    " Of course, our Muslim neighbors were quick to tell us, “We told you pork was bad for you!”






    "Let them eat South African lobster tails and Hawaian mahi-mahi!"

    [washed down with well chilled California Chardonnay]

    to paraphrase Marie Antoinette.


    P.S. Not sure they advised British expatries to cherish Spotted Dicks.


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  • 77. At 12:15pm on 29 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    PMK I know your heart is in the right place but you are disrupting the thread with cryptic diversions that most Americans will not grasp.

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  • 78. At 12:22pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 79. At 12:30pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 80. At 12:33pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    worcesterjim, (#77. At 12:15pm on 29 Jan 2011)
    ”PMK I know your heart is in the right place but you are disrupting the thread with cryptic diversions that most Americans will not grasp.”
    One man’s meat is another man’s poison.

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  • 81. At 12:34pm on 29 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    76. At 12:12pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:
    P.S. Not sure they advised British expatries to cherish Spotted Dicks.
    77. At 12:15pm on 29 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:
    PMK I know your heart is in the right place but you are disrupting the thread with cryptic diversions that most Americans will not grasp.
    ___________________________________________________
    Worcestorjim, ever since John Goodman did that movie some years back about your royals, most Americans know what spotted dick is, but we are all childish enough to still get a giggle every time it comes up.
    As an aside, since I’m married to a Mick, I happen to have a can of spotted dick in the pantry, which is where it’ll stay if it’s up to me.

    It is germane in the sense that democracy in the ME often means a restriction on your diet.





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  • 82. At 12:34pm on 29 Jan 2011, U14752247 wrote:

    @ 70 W to the J
    Well when CIA shenanigans are repugnant you get whistle blowers on the inside publishing details. This has been happening since Ollie North (Guns for drugs), Lockerbie, (bomb were smuggled using CIA drug routes). First Iraqi war (the road to Basra where 10's of thousands were killed in one night like a turkey shoot) and 9/11 (E.P. Heidner's links to controlled explosives WT1, WT2 and WT7 and the facilitation of the sub-prime frauds). This is called intercept evidence which is submissible in Court, so we must depend on the morals and integrity and conscience of these Government agencies employees to get the inside scoop on the real dope / facts.

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  • 83. At 12:39pm on 29 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    76. At 12:12pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:
    [washed down with well chilled California Chardonnay]
    ______________________________________________________________
    Interesting National Geography moment: In the UAE, it is legal for non-Muslims to purchase and consume alcohol, but not Muslims. Therefore, when I go to my favorite liquor store (the one that always has German beer) I get out of my SUV, walk in, pick up my case of beer, pay and walk out. However, if I were a Muslim, I could sit in the parking lot and toot my horn; soon an Indian would come running out, take my money through the slightly open driver’s window and bring me what I want…

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  • 84. At 12:41pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    worcesterjim wrote:
    PMK I know your heart is in the right place but you are disrupting the thread with cryptic diversions that most Americans will not grasp.







    Worcestersjim, I know your heart is in the right place but you're disrupting the thread with cryptic references to some shady unnanmed outfits alegedly running/controlling the world you know.

    Speak clearly so that those outfits know who they're dealing with.

    thank you,




    P.S. You do know that Taliban's 'colonelartist' is no longer with us? :(

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  • 85. At 12:50pm on 29 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    84. At 12:41pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:
    P.S. You do know that Taliban's 'colonelartist' is no longer with us? :(
    ______________________________________________________
    I wonder if that has anything to do with the “predators” among us…

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  • 86. At 12:51pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 87. At 1:05pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    , Oldloadr wrote:
    76. At 12:12pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:
    [washed down with well chilled California Chardonnay]
    ______________________________________________________________
    Interesting National Geography moment: In the UAE, it is legal for non-Muslims to purchase and consume alcohol, but not Muslims. Therefore, when I go to my favorite liquor store (the one that always has German beer) I get out of my SUV, walk in, pick up my case of beer, pay and walk out. However, if I were a Muslim, I could sit in the parking lot and toot my horn; soon an Indian would come running out, take my money through the slightly open driver’s window and bring me what I want…





    I have a friend at MOD who more many years was selling British weapons (mostly planes) to Saudi Arabia.

    He could not recall how many dozens of single malt cases he shipped to different SA officials, and how much booze was consumed at parties thrown at closed, eclusively rented 5- star hotels.

    [may I skip what he said about the hooker part?]

    Much later one of my Arab friends explained to me that Quran prohibited drinking WINE, but said nothing about cognac, gin, scotch, vodka, etc.

    So, as you can see, everything is in perfect order. :-)



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  • 88. At 1:06pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    Studio One, (#82. At 12:34pm on 29 Jan 2011)
    "... when CIA shenanigans are repugnant you get whistle blowers on the inside publishing details. This has been happening since Ollie North (Guns for drugs), Lockerbie, (bomb were smuggled using CIA drug routes) . .. ."
    Ah, so the CIA is responsible for the Lockerbie bombing, eh? Suuuure it is!

    "... First Iraqi war (the road to Basra where 10's of thousands were killed in one night like a turkey shoot) ..."
    Amusing fantasy. "the above analysis suggests that a combined minimum of 800-1000 dead better reconciles the available evidence -- notably: the various overlapping reports of hundreds of observed dead at the main attack site and the extent and character of destruction at the second.
    As for the higher-end estimates of 10,000 or more killed during the incidents: such estimates are simply not consonant with the observed and reported numbers of dead "
    http://www.comw.org/pda/0310rm8ap2.html#5. The Highway(s) of
    (the complete line above is the url)

    "... and 9/11 (E.P. Heidner's links to controlled explosives WT1, WT2 and WT7 and the facilitation of the sub-prime frauds) ..."
    The U.S. Federal Government is behind 9/11? LOL!

    "... we must depend on the morals and integrity and conscience of these Government agencies employees to get the inside scoop on the real dope / facts. "
    It is difficult for anyone except conspiracy theorists to "get the inside scoop" on non-existent relationships.

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  • 89. At 1:07pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Oldloadr: since I’m married to a Mick, I happen to have a can of spotted dick in the pantry, which is where it’ll stay if it’s up to me.





    Oldloadr, relax; I've been assured by a local specialist that a case of Spotted Dick can be cured pretty quickly these days.

    Even by NHS physicians.

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  • 90. At 1:12pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Oldloadr wrote:
    84. At 12:41pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:
    P.S. You do know that Taliban's 'colonelartist' is no longer with us? :(
    ______________________________________________________
    I wonder if that has anything to do with the “predators” among us…






    Predator-2, a sequel, can be seen in all Waziristan movie theaters.

    Or at least in jhaddists cars' rear view mirrors.


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  • 91. At 1:17pm on 29 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    89. At 1:07pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:
    Oldloadr: since I’m married to a Mick, I happen to have a can of spotted dick in the pantry, which is where it’ll stay if it’s up to me.


    Oldloadr, relax; I've been assured by a local specialist that a case of Spotted Dick can be cured pretty quickly these days.

    Even by NHS physicians.
    _____________________________________________________

    See, worcetorjim? That’s what I mean, we can’t help but get all giggly and make a hundred double entendre jokes when it comes to your peculiar dessert… I almost spewed gin and tonic on my laptop screen when I saw PMK’s post above.

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  • 92. At 1:22pm on 29 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    90. At 1:12pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:
    Or at least in jhaddists cars' rear view mirrors.
    ____________________________________________

    Objects in this mirror are closer than they appear!


    Oh, and yes, we are celebrating the meeting of jihadists with the Creator, who we don’t think is too impressed with their behavior…


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  • 93. At 1:24pm on 29 Jan 2011, reincarnation wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 94. At 1:32pm on 29 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    84 ..Tu che PMK

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  • 95. At 1:35pm on 29 Jan 2011, reincarnation wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 96. At 1:39pm on 29 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    88 Chryses...regarding Lockerbie google the name Dr Jim Swire...who lost his daughter Flora at Lockerbie....for a little window of what the CIA really got up to in the aftermath of Lockerbie.

    I have never seen any rational reason to doubt that Lockerbie and 9/11 and 7/7 were the work of disaffected Muslims in a very unequal world.

    If only we had the maturity to ask why they did it...we might be well on the way to creating a really free and democratic world ....instead of one ruled by "the markets".

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  • 97. At 1:47pm on 29 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 98. At 1:48pm on 29 Jan 2011, U14752247 wrote:

    @ chryses. I happen to be cursed or blessed by being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

    I was employed by Pan Am one week after Lockerbie and was passed relevant info about the bombs how they were smuggled in using the CIA's drug routes and the two CIA agents who were about to spill the beans and had their indestructible briefcases with evidence retrieved by CIA agents. I passed this info onto the person responsible for Pan Am's Lockerbie Investigation, which was cited in their legal case (read Trail of the Octopus).

    I was also employed by Bank of New York Mellon at the time of 9/11 and built Merill Lynch's Mortgage Back Securities trade processing system and the FAILS Trade report which highlighted the spike in Failed Settlement Trades on 9/11 from various Merill Lynch clients which was explained to us to be Russian Mafia money, but was identified in E.P.Heidners thesis as CIA Black Op funds.

    So there is same validity in the theories for example the Times article yesterday "Guilty: fearless banks that flew ever closer to the sun" which highlights Politicians, regulators and credit agencies blamed for the financial crisis and puts Paulson, Greenspan, Bernake, Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley in the frame as being key players in the 2008 meltdown that brought the financial system to its knees and threw millions out of their jobs and homes, who could face prosecution after the release of a U.S. government report into the crisis.

    You can LOL all you wish, but I will assume you are just ignorant and naive and not knowledgeable about any of the real facts which will be coming to a Court House in the vicinity in the near future. I guess you still believe that USA treats it's own citizens as indispensable.

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  • 99. At 1:55pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    worcesterjim, (#96. At 1:39pm on 29 Jan 2011)

    "88 Chryses...regarding Lockerbie google the name Dr Jim Swire...who lost his daughter Flora at Lockerbie ..."
    It must have been a terrible experience for him.
    "... for a little window of what the CIA really got up to in the aftermath of Lockerbie.
    Studio One (#82) is suggesting that the CIA was responsible for the Lockerbie bombing, while you are referring to what the CIA got up to after the event.

    "... I have never seen any rational reason to doubt that Lockerbie and 9/11 and 7/7 were the work of disaffected Muslims in a very unequal world ..."
    Neither have I, but not all people are rational.

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  • 100. At 2:12pm on 29 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    96. At 1:39pm on 29 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:
    If only we had the maturity to ask why they did it...we might be well on the way to creating a really free and democratic world ....instead of one ruled by "the markets".
    _____________________________________________________________
    I love your theory and it makes sense, as we in the west see things. However, all (yeah, all) of the 9/11 hijackers were from wealthy families, in the US on student visas to “study” in the university. One was from the UAE. If he thought he would be a martyr to his people, he was sadly mistaken; all the Emiratis I know disavow any knowledge of his existence, unless you press them and then they get very uncomfortable…

    Riddle me that one, Batman!



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  • 101. At 2:20pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 102. At 2:25pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    reincarnation wrote:
    75. powermeerkat
    "(btw. Today they're known as NATIVE Americans. :-)))))))))))))))))))))))]"

    Since when did the USA make a territorial claim to those parts of Canada and Siberia inhabited by the Inuit? I never noticed the autonomous country of Greenland becoming part of the USA.

    Granted we are used to the boastful nonsense from Imperial America on here, but you are taking that to ridiculous extremes.





    I do that on purpose since INDIGINOUS Eskimos are about as Native as Native Americans.

    [unless you consider averybody born in the U.S. a Native American.
    As you should should]


    P.S. An expression "Imperial America" speaks volume about where you hail from.

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  • 103. At 2:30pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 104. At 2:39pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    Studio One, (#98. At 1:48pm on 29 Jan 2011)
    "@ chryses. I happen to be cursed or blessed by being at the wrong place at the wrong time ..."
    An amusing question of interpretation.

    "I was employed by Pan Am one week after Lockerbie and was passed relevant info about the bombs ..."
    Sure you were.

    "... how they were smuggled in using the CIA's drug routes ..."
    So you are now claiming that the terrorists followed a path blazed by the CIA?

    "... and the two CIA agents who were about to spill the beans ..."
    Sure you were! Who are these "CIA agents who were about to spill the beans?"

    "... and had their indestructible briefcases ..."
    Ah, now the CIA has "indestructible briefcases," eh? Good fantasy material. Perhaps they keep the mind control devices in those indestructible briefcases.

    "... with evidence retrieved by CIA agents ..."
    Dang! Just when you were about to break the case wiiiiide open, too!

    "... I passed this info onto the person responsible for Pan Am's Lockerbie Investigation, which was cited in their legal case (read Trail of the Octopus).
    Would you be kind enough to flesh out this bit of the story please? You know, with details, urls, that kind of thing. TY.

    "... I was also employed by Bank of New York Mellon at the time of 9/11 ..."
    Wow! A wide ranging career as well!

    "... and built Merill Lynch's Mortgage Back Securities trade processing system ..."
    Perhaps that helps explain why Merrill Lynch is no longer an independent company.

    "...and the FAILS Trade report which highlighted the spike in Failed Settlement Trades on 9/11 from various Merill Lynch clients ..."
    Yes, I can believe that you built a FAILS report.

    "... which was explained to us to be Russian Mafia money, but was identified in E.P.Heidners thesis as CIA Black Op funds ..."
    Dang! Back to those pesky interpretations again!

    "... So there is same validity in the theories ..."
    Evidence please - other than your opinions. You know, with details, urls, that kind of thing. TY.

    "... for example the Times article yesterday "Guilty: fearless banks that flew ever closer to the sun" which highlights Politicians, regulators and credit agencies blamed for the financial crisis and puts Paulson, Greenspan, Bernake, Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley in the frame as being key players in the 2008 meltdown that brought the financial system to its knees and threw millions out of their jobs and homes, who could face prosecution after the release of a U.S. government report into the crisis ..."
    I trust you will not be upset with me if I don't hold my breath waiting?

    ". . You can LOL all you wish ..."
    It is very likely I shall!

    "...but I will assume you are just ignorant and naive ..."
    You may assume whatever you wish, but you should be prepared to substantiate your claims if you wish anyone to treat them seriously.

    "... and not knowledgeable about any of the real facts ..."
    As opposed to what, unreal facts? What an interesting notion! Please explain what unreal facts are.

    "... which will be coming to a Court House in the vicinity in the near future ..."
    In the vicinity of what?

    "... I guess you still believe that USA treats it's own citizens as indispensable.
    Without American citizens, there can be no U.S.A. Ipso facto, the citizens are indispensible.

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  • 105. At 2:45pm on 29 Jan 2011, U14752247 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 106. At 2:45pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Britain, the US and France are all advising against non-essential travel to Egypt."... (BBC News)


    Thousands of foreign tourists and Egyptians crowd Cairo airport trying to get out." (news wires)



    Perhaps a naive question: why would anybody spend their hard earned money and voluntarily travel to any Muslim country?

    Be that Algeria, Egypt, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia or whatever.

    Inquiring minds want to know.



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  • 107. At 2:46pm on 29 Jan 2011, reincarnation wrote:

    102. powermeerkat
    "I do that on purpose since INDIGINOUS Eskimos are about as Native as Native Americans."

    Pretty silly purpose - since my point was that the Inuit are found in several countries. Didn't you notice?

    An Imperial country is one which claims to rule over others. If you don't understand humour, you are beyond all hope.

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  • 108. At 2:49pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    There is RT, there is CCTV, there's WikiLeaks and there's Studio One.

    Don't say that you don't have multiple sources of 'information'. :-)))


    P.S. Sorry: I forgot to mention North Korean state TV.

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  • 109. At 2:54pm on 29 Jan 2011, U14752247 wrote:

    Chryses. I'm hitting the road now here's some background reading for you to masticate over in your limitless self professed wisdom knowledge and understanding
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trail-Octopus-Beirut-Lockerbie-Inside/dp/074751562X

    Please feel free to fob it off as per usual but the more open minded here may be able to make up their own minds up about the Official versions which do not quite gel true.

    [ God Bless America, Land of the Free and Brave..: who love their Holy WAR's ]
    suckers

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  • 110. At 2:56pm on 29 Jan 2011, reincarnation wrote:

    106. powermeerkat
    "Inquiring minds want to know."

    Inquiring minds would have already visited countries with different histories and cultures to their own.

    They know already.

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  • 111. At 2:56pm on 29 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 112. At 2:57pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    reincarnation, (#107. At 2:46pm on 29 Jan 2011)

    ”... An Imperial country is one which claims to rule over others ...”
    To which countries might you be referring?

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  • 113. At 3:06pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    Studio One, (#109. At 2:54pm on 29 Jan 2011)

    ”... Chryses. I'm hitting the road now here's some background reading ...”
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trail-Octopus-Beirut-Lockerbie-Inside/dp/074751562X
    So now, rather than provide supporting evidence for your claims, you are suggesting that we all purchase a copy of a book?

    What WILL you think of next? LOL!

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  • 114. At 3:08pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    reincarnation wrote:
    106. powermeerkat
    "Inquiring minds want to know."

    Inquiring minds would have already visited countries with different histories and cultures to their own.






    They already have. In their latest incarnation as meerkats.

    And re 'Imperial countries'...

    What is Russia doing in Caucasus, S.Karelia, Kuril Islands and Manchuria?

    And what is Communist China doing in Inner Mongolia, Tibet and Uighuria?

    Perhaps you should ask your instructor at the next morning briefing. :-)



    Oh and re reincarnations... You don't sound like a peaceful Buddhist.

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  • 115. At 3:15pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    quietoaktree, (#111. At 2:56pm on 29 Jan 2011)

    It is interesting to see how similar Al Jazeera's home page is to that of the BBC.

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  • 116. At 3:18pm on 29 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    110. At 2:56pm on 29 Jan 2011, reincarnation wrote:
    Inquiring minds would have already visited countries with different histories and cultures to their own.
    _______________________________________________


    I have visited over 20 countries, most on business, some for pleasure and I have to tell you, I have not found anything, anywhere that is something we Americans can’t find at home, including Islamic terrorists. I have taken to advising my fellow citizens who have never traveled abroad to not bother. There is nothing the rest of the world has that we don’t have, except dysentery…

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  • 117. At 3:19pm on 29 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 118. At 3:20pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    'The suicide bomber who killed 35 people at Moscow's Domodedovo Airport was a 20-year-old man from the North Caucasus, Russian investigators say." (BBC)



    Let me guess: a Coptic Christian,a Catholic, a Buddhist or a Zoroastrian?

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  • 119. At 3:23pm on 29 Jan 2011, reincarnation wrote:

    114. powermeerkat
    "What is Russia doing in Caucasus, S.Karelia, Kuril Islands and Manchuria?

    And what is Communist China doing in Inner Mongolia, Tibet and Uighuria?
    "

    Why do you ask? They are imperialists (though why you want to distinguish between Communist China and any previous version suggests that your understanding of imperial behaviour is sadly lacking.)

    Mainly, however, you still don't understand that the comment referred to your claim that Greenland is American or that Inuit Siberia is American and/or your somewhat amusing bombastic ignorance. Feel free to choose which aspect of you was laughable.

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  • 120. At 3:26pm on 29 Jan 2011, reincarnation wrote:

    116. Oldloadr
    "I have not found anything, anywhere that is something we Americans can’t find at home"

    What a narrow experience you must have had.

    Sounds like my American aunt who claimed to have 8 years experience of India. In fact she had one year's experience of the US diplomatic compound - replicated 8 times.

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  • 121. At 3:30pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    powermeerkat, (#106. At 2:45pm on 29 Jan 2011)

    ”... Perhaps a naive question: why would anybody spend their hard earned money and voluntarily travel to any Muslim country?
    Be that Algeria, Egypt, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia or whatever ...”

    I have enjoyed all my travels up and down the Nile visiting the Pyramids at Giza, the royal tombs in the Valley of the Kings, the Abu Simbel temples, and the many lesser monuments of Pharaonic Egypt.

    The Museum of Egyptian Antiquities in Cairo was (still?) a delight to visit. Alas! I have just read that looters broke into the museum during anti-government protests yesterday and destroyed two Pharaonic mummies.

    Sad, that.

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  • 122. At 3:37pm on 29 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    #115 Chryses

    --- They are giving the BBC a run for their money.

    --- and have won their spurs on their English site -- But no idea about the Arab version.

    I know of no American site coming close.

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  • 123. At 3:45pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 124. At 3:53pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #121 Chryses

    It was nice to travel to the region when there was a relative peace and quiet in at least some of the region countries.
    [not only in Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Morocco]

    And to view antiquities without looking around for Muslim terrorists.

    Alas, this is no longer the case. :-(



    P.S. Please stay away from IRAN and YEMEN!

    [your folks might not be able to get you out. Alive. And in one piece.]

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  • 125. At 3:58pm on 29 Jan 2011, reincarnation wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 126. At 4:02pm on 29 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    #121 Chryses

    -- I wholly agree. Dying without seeing the places you mentioned would leave a void.

    --and add Tunisia and Marrocco to the list !

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  • 127. At 4:02pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Chryses: "It is interesting to see how similar Al Jazeera's home page is to that of the BBC."



    Not really, considering how many BBC journalists have moved to Al-Jazeera just to make more money.

    [some of the really capable have been hired by CNN long time ago.

    British journalistic leftovers going to RT.]

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  • 128. At 4:10pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    reincarnation: Mainly, however, you still don't understand that the comment referred to your claim that Greenland is American or that Inuit Siberia is American and/or your somewhat amusing bombastic ignorance.





    If you had learnt to read in one of your previous incarantions you'd have known for sure that I've never made such a ridiculous claim.

    Unless you want to intentionally falsify my posting record.

    Now, DO YOU? You sure?

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  • 129. At 4:13pm on 29 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    Aljazeera --- LIVE STREAM EGYPT


    http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

    Things are escalating !

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  • 130. At 4:14pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    powermeerkat, (124. At 3:53pm on 29 Jan 2011)
    ”... to view antiquities without looking around for Muslim terrorists.
    Alas, this is no longer the case ...”

    You asked in post #106, “why would anybody spend their hard earned money and voluntarily travel to any Muslim country?” I provided one reason.

    As to your allusions to the dangers of Muslim nations, I guess that our differences of opinion are the differences between experience and theory.

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  • 131. At 4:18pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    powermeerkat, (#127. At 4:02pm on 29 Jan 2011)

    "... how many BBC journalists have moved to Al-Jazeera just to make more money ..."
    Evidence please.

    "... [some of the really capable have been hired by CNN long time ago ..."
    Evidence please.

    "... British journalistic leftovers going to RT.]"
    Evidence please.

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  • 132. At 4:20pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #130

    Chryses

    More than once in my life I was going in when most rational people were getting out in a hurry.

    And I'm not talking 'bout Greenland. :-)

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  • 133. At 4:26pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    quietoaktree, (#126. At 4:02pm on 29 Jan 2011)
    "... I wholly agree. Dying without seeing the places you mentioned would leave a void ..."
    They are splendid examples of human civilization.

    "... add Tunisia and Marrocco to the list !"
    I should like to visit the sites - both ancient and modern - there also.

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  • 134. At 4:28pm on 29 Jan 2011, Ad wrote:

    106 Meercat

    Travel broadens the mind, they say.

    The only muslim country we have visited is Morocco on two occasions. We did all our own bookings for the 2nd trip and stayed in the oldest part of the ancient city of Fez, in a rhiad (family-sized traditional hotel) belonging to a Moroccan family.

    We loved the warm, friendly people, the food, the ancient monuments. We really got into bargaining for everything we bought, and learned quickly how to dodge the mule-trains as they came down the crowded streets, the air laden with the smell of spices (or in places the stink of the medieval tanneries!) Not much there that can be found in America, oldloadr (116)!

    If you have open minds and would ever wish to visit a muslim country, Morocco would be a good place to start. We were there out of the busy season but there were plenty of American tourists visiting the famous historic sites and clearly loving their experiences.

    I have one important 'caveat' - like all the Maghreb countries, Morocco is an autocratic state with King Mohammed VI at its head. He's done a lot in the way of modernisation of infrastructure. He's also given a lot of powers to the regions. But he's still the 'big beast' and very much in charge. Don't ask what goes on in the prisons.

    When visiting such a country we weigh the scales between apparently supporting a dictatorial country's intolerances on one hand, and contributing to its people's prosperity, on the other.

    That said, we felt safer at night in the Moroccan cities than in many British ones.

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  • 135. At 4:29pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    powermeerkat, (#132. At 4:20pm on 29 Jan 2011)

    ”More than once in my life I was going in when most rational people were getting out in a hurry ...”
    Good for you. Perhaps THAT is why we have different opinions.

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  • 136. At 4:30pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Chryses wrote:
    powermeerkat, (#127. At 4:02pm on 29 Jan 2011)

    "... how many BBC journalists have moved to Al-Jazeera just to make more money ..."
    Evidence please.

    "... [some of the really capable have been hired by CNN long time ago ..."
    Evidence please.

    "... British journalistic leftovers going to RT.]"
    Evidence please.



    Names, bios, dates readly available on line. Just google it.

    In case you really cannot recognize faces of certain Andrians, Fionulas, Richards, etc. on your TV screen.

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  • 137. At 4:35pm on 29 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 138. At 4:37pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    powermeerkat, (#136. At 4:30pm on 29 Jan 2011)
    "Chryses wrote ...
    'Evidence please.'

    Names, bios, dates readly available on line. Just google it.
    In case you really cannot recognize faces of certain Andrians, Fionulas, Richards, etc. on your TV screen."

    If you expect people to treat your opinions seriously, you'll need to substantiate them.
    You have yet to do so.

    Remember now, "... how many BBC journalists have moved to Al-Jazeera just to make more money ..."
    Good luck.

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  • 139. At 4:42pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    Ad, (#134. At 4:28pm on 29 Jan 2011)
    ”... That said, we felt safer at night in the Moroccan cities than in many British ones.”
    Yes indeed! I have walked without concern alone at night through Jeddah streets while there are sections of Baltimore I would prefer not to drive through during the day with a friend.

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  • 140. At 4:44pm on 29 Jan 2011, Philip Osborne wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 141. At 5:00pm on 29 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 142. At 5:03pm on 29 Jan 2011, MilwaukeeRay wrote:

    I think it is said best in the bedrock document of American democracy, the Declaration of Independence.

    "....governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."

    Obama should quote it in his next speech and then let the chips fall where they may.

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  • 143. At 5:13pm on 29 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    America should give Mubarak asylum -- and get some money back.

    Both America and Europe should start blocking the bank accounts.

    Citizens are unsure if the looting is organized --as some looters are armed.

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  • 144. At 5:26pm on 29 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    • 120. At 3:26pm on 29 Jan 2011, reincarnation wrote:
    116. Oldloadr
    "I have not found anything, anywhere that is something we Americans can’t find at home"

    What a narrow experience you must have had.
    _____________________________________________________________
    You think? OK, tell me something I can see or do somewhere else in the world that I can’t see or do in the USA, besides:
    1. Suffer from diarrhea
    2. Look at really old buildings that haven’t been taken care of
    3. Get ripped off by street urchins

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  • 145. At 5:32pm on 29 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    PMK appears to be protesting !!!!!!!

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  • 146. At 5:34pm on 29 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 147. At 5:35pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #138 Chryses, if you really cannot recognize on CNN faces of such previously BBC reporters/correspondents/anchors as Matthew Chance, Adrian Finighan (as of recent at al-Jazeera), Max Foster, Charles Hodson, Richard Quest, etc. - take some time to watch that network and read its broadcasters' bios.

    And if you're interested in money, call any BBC journalist you know and ask them off the record why some of their former colleagues left for al-Jazeera and how much they make there now.

    [Don't be lazy: I'm sure man-made global warming can wait a little. :-)]

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  • 148. At 5:41pm on 29 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    #144 Oldloadr

    "You think? OK, tell me something I can see or do somewhere else in the world that I can’t see or do in the USA, besides:
    1. Suffer from diarrhea
    2. Look at really old buildings that haven’t been taken care of
    3. Get ripped off by street urchins"

    --get edumacated ?

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  • 149. At 5:54pm on 29 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    148. At 5:41pm on 29 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:
    --get edumacated ?
    ___________________________________________________

    Oh, you don’t think we Americans have enough institutions of higher learning? Oh, I get it, you think eating a shawarma in downtown Abu Dhabi make me more educated than eating one in Dearborn, MI? While I have enjoyed interacting with people all over the world, I’ve learned that people are people, it’s governments that cause the problems in the world, so getting to know the people changes nothing and does not make one a better educated or informed citizen. Even if it did, you are still in the minority no matter what your native country so you won’t be able to change your country’s foreign policy anyway.

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  • 150. At 5:55pm on 29 Jan 2011, Andy Post wrote:

    Eef. 39, JMay:


    "Really? How come the poor of Africa are not blowing themselves up then? Have you heard those threats against Israel, from Ethiopia?

    Me neither."

    First off, we are talking about Africa (yes, Egyptians are African).

    Second, what about Somalia? Nigeria? Sudan? You don't get much poorer than that.

    Third, I was talking about the Arab world, but Israel has a history of the use of terrorist tactics. They don't deny it.

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  • 151. At 5:57pm on 29 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    The BBC is funded by the taxpayer to broadcast western ideas to the Muslim World...and they have an Iranian television station broadcasting into Iran against the wishes of the Iranian government.
    Al Jazeera started life as a BBC experiment that failed and was taken over by others.
    Naturally the British people are told nothing of this...or asked how they would feel if our television service had foreign competition pointing out the deficiencies of our politics and media!

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  • 152. At 6:08pm on 29 Jan 2011, Andy Post wrote:

    Ref. 148, quietoaktree:

    "OK, tell me something I can see or do somewhere else in the world that I can’t see or do in the USA."

    Experiencing cultures unadulterated by American culture?

    Your attitude reminds me a bit of that of New Yorkers: Why would you want to go anywhere else, New York has it all. No, New York City (one of my very favorites in the world) has a representation of virtually everything, not the those things themselves. To get to the root of these things, you must go experience them directly.

    The U.S. has virtually every culture represented within its borders, yes, but those representations are necessarily diluted by the domineering presence of American culture (and to a much lesser extent vice versa, which strengthens us considerably). The unadulterated versions of these cultures are still worth experiencing.

    In the end it's a question of whether you value anything other than American culture. That's a personal decision and one you're free to make, but don't expect it to mean anything to the rest of us.

    Personally I fear that American culture will overwhelm all others. I hope not. I'd hate to get on a plane at DIA, fly eleven hours, and find myself in Denver. I want the rest of the world to be different. I get my fill of American culture every day.

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  • 153. At 6:09pm on 29 Jan 2011, BluesBerry wrote:

    Obama's caution on Egypt is winning no friends because the world is no longer ignorant, though sometimes misinformed. The United States government has been involved in overthrows of foreign governments (aka "regime change") with & without the overt use of military force. Such operations are usually the responsibility of The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). Many of the governments targeted by the US have been DEMOCRATICALLY elected. In too many cases the governments overthrown were replaced by dictatorships, installed by the US
    Regime change has also been attempted/accomplished through direct involvement of US covert operations, anti-regime propaganda campaigns, coup d'états, and other activities. The US has accomplished regime change by direct military action, such as following the US invasion of Panama in 1989 and the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.
    I contend that the US has supported more coups against DEMOCRACIES than any other country. Therefore what is going on in Egypt could be an American-supported regime change to replace the old President Hosni Mubarek with the younger Sulieman. Wwere the Americans using Twitter? Is this why Mubarek turned off the Internet and otehr systems?
    In spite of its deplorable history, US officials routinely express support for democracy as best supporting US interests, etc. etc. etc.
    Iran 1953 - coup d'état:
    In 1953, the CIA worked with the United Kingdom to overthrow the DEMOCRATICALLY elected government of Iran led by Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadegh who wanted to nationalize Iran's petroleum industry, thus threatening the profits of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company. Britain was fearful of Iran's plans to nationalize its oil industry and pressed the US to mount a joint operation to depose the prime minister and install a puppet regime.
    With help from British intelligence, the CIA planned, funded and implemented Operation Ajax. In the months before the coup, the UK and US imposed a boycott on the country, exerted political pressures, and conducted a massive covert propaganda campaign. The CIA hired Iranian agents to harass religious leaders and staged the bombing of one cleric's home to turn the Islamic religious community against the government. For publicity sake, the CIA hoped to plant articles in US newspapers saying that Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlevi's return to govern Iran resulted from a grass-roots demand of the people.
    The coup initially failed and the Shah fled the country. After four days of rioting, Shi'ite-sparked street protests defeated Mossadegh's forces and the Shah returned to power. After the coup his rule was MORE AUTOCRATIC, with no space for democracy.
    Made confident by the Iran coup, the CIA subsequently expanded its reach into other countries.
    Guatemala 1954 coup d'état:
    The CIA participated in the overthrow of the DEMOCRATICALLY-elected government of Guatemala led by Jacobo Arbenz. Arbenz onsidered himself a communist and joined the Communist Party in 1957. His land reform, designed by the Communist Party, was ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court, which he then purged. His regime openly praised Stalin, relied on the communists for key decisions, and received arms from the Soviet bloc.
    The CIA intervened because it feared that a communist dictatorship would become a Soviet spearhead in the Western Hemisphere, and because it was protecting, among others, four hundred thousand acres of land the United Fruit Company had acquired, a Wall Street multinational company.
    The Congo Crisis:
    Thee CIA and the Belgian government orchestrated a military coup to remove the Lumumba Government from power. Lumumba was subsequently murdered in prison.
    CIA activities in Iraq:
    In February 1963, the United States backed a coup against the government of Iraq headed by General Abd al-Karim Qasim, who five years earlier had deposed the Western-allied Iraqi monarchy. The US was concerned about the growing influence of Communist Iraqi government, as well as his threats to invade Kuwait, which almost caused a war between Iraq and England.
    While Qasim was actually killed by a firing squad of the Ba'ath party that overthrew him, there had been a separate CIA plan to destroy him. In their request, they said the target's death "would not be unacceptable to them". Washington immediately befriended the successor regime.
    1964 Brazilian coup d'état:
    A democratically-elected government headed by President João Goulart was successfully overthrown by a CIA-supported coup in March 1964. On March 30, the American military attaché in Brazil, Colonel Vernon A. Walters, telegraphed the State Department. In that telegraph, he confirmed that Brazilian army generals, independently of the US, had committed themselves to acting against Goulart within a week. Lyndon B. Johnson received a briefing on events in Brazil on March 31, 1964 on his Texas ranch with Undersecretary of State George Ball. Declassified transcripts show that, predicting an all-out civil war, President Johnson authorized logistical materials to be in place to support the coup as part of US Operation Brother Sam.
    Republic of Ghana 1966: Kwame Nkrumah, the President of Ghana, was overthrown in a military coup backed by the CIA while on a state visit to North Vietnam and China.
    In 1968, the CIA allegedly backed the coup by Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr of the Baath Party, bringing Saddam Hussein to the threshold of power.
    Subsequent coups that brought Saddam to power were known as "counter-coups".
    One of the CIA's longest and most expensive covert operations was the supplying of billions of dollars in arms to the Afghan mujahideen militants. The CIA provided assistance to the fundamentalist insurgents through the Pakistani secret services, Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), in a program called Operation Cyclone. Somewhere between $2 and $20 billion were funneled into the country to train and equip troops with weapons.
    Carter's National Security Advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski, was quoted as saying that the US provided aid to the mujahideen prior to the Soviet invasion in order to provoke one. President Carter ignored the situation until the Soviet intervention. With US and other funding, the ISI armed and trained over 100,000 insurgents. On July 20, 1987, the withdrawal of Soviet troops from the country was announced pursuant to the negotiations that led to the Geneva Accords of 1988, with the last Soviets leaving on February 15, 1989. The early foundations of al-Qaida were built from the billions of dollars in US support for the Afghan mujahadin.
    Jundullah militants - US officials have been secretly encouraging and advising a Pakistani Balochi militant group named Jundullah that is responsible for a series of deadly guerrilla raids inside Iran. The Jundullah militants "stage attacks across the border into Iran on Iranian military officers, Iranian intelligence officers, kidnapping them, executing them on camera," This militant group was led by a youthful leader, Abd el Malik Regi, eventually caught and executed by Iran.
    Money for Jundullah was funneled to Abd el Malik Regi through Iranian exiles who have connections with European and Persian Gulf states. Regi and Jundullah were also suspected of being associated with al Qaida, a charge that the group has denied. Jundullah "is a vicious Salafi organization whose followers attended the same madrassas as the Taliban and Pakistani extremists. They were, and remain, suspected of having links to Al Qaeda and they are also thought to be tied to the drug culture.
    Okay, enough already - though there is plenty more such as
    - Jean-Bertrand Aristide a Haitian politician and former priest who served as Haiti's first democratically elected president until forcibly removed by the Americans;
    - José Manuel Zelaya Rosales President of Honduras from January 27, 2006 until June 28, 2009 until forcibly removed by the Americans.
    My point is that the United does not, has not, and most likely never will support DEMOCRATICALLY-elected governments. The united States doesn't care about democracy; it cares about power, imperialism and profit. The United States wants puppet governments that they can control so that Americans can exploit the workers, the resources, and the western business establishments.
    Egypt:
    The Americans want their good friend Mubarek gone; he is too old and used up. In his place I believe they want Omar Suleiman. Vice-president is the post that Mubarak occupied before he was promoted to the presidency following the assassination of his predecessor Anwar Sadat.
    As Egypt's intelligence chief, Suleiman was in charge of the country's most important political security files, and was the mastermind behind the fragmentation of Islamist groups who led the uprising against the state in the 1990s.
    The situation in Egypt is being played by some as an Islamist uprising i.e. The Muslim Brotherhood. This is a downright lie. Closer to the truth is that the situation in Egypt is a coup in process managed and directed by the United States.
    As for the Egyptian people, who would they vote for, who do they want: Mohamed ElBaradei - Egyptian activist and Nobel peace winner.

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  • 154. At 6:11pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 155. At 6:13pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    powermeerkat, (#147. At 5:35pm on 29 Jan 2011)
    "... if you're interested in money, call any BBC journalist you know and ask them off the record why some of their former colleagues left for al-Jazeera and how much they make there now ..."
    You seem to be confused. You made the big claims; now, you back them up with corroborating evidence. Unless, of course, you are unable to substantiate your claims...
    You have yet to do so.

    Remember now, "... how many BBC journalists have moved to Al-Jazeera just to make more money ..."
    Good luck.

    "... [Don't be lazy: I'm sure man-made global warming can wait a little. :-)]"
    AGW has already begun. The science corroborates it. You can check up on my claims here: http://www.realclimate.org/

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  • 156. At 6:15pm on 29 Jan 2011, polite and kind wrote:

    I can see some here are really worried that the stance of stopping Aid to people that use force to subjugate their population could spread. Soon when the Isreali's use 2000 lb bombs to stop the people they "control" from importing cookies the US might have to act in an equal fashion.

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  • 157. At 6:17pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    Oldloadr, (144. At 5:26pm on 29 Jan 2011)
    ”... tell me something I can see or do somewhere else in the world that I can’t see or do in the USA ...”
    Dawn over the herds on the Serengeti Plain. (It really is impressive)
    [url available through google]
    The coral reefs of the Red Sea.
    [url available through google]
    The Eiffel Tower.
    [url available through google]
    The Vatican Museums.
    [url available through google]
    The Taj Mahal.
    [url available through google]
    etc.

    It seems that the mods to exception to the links. Sorry about that.

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  • 158. At 6:21pm on 29 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    #149 Oldloadr

    "Oh, you don’t think we Americans have enough institutions of higher learning?"

    No, but your voluntary admission that you have not used them puts you at PMK´s level when discussing such matters.

    "Even if it did, you are still in the minority no matter what your native country so you won’t be able to change your country’s foreign policy anyway."

    Is that a rather weak-hearted attempt at supporting yours´ in this MESS ?

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  • 159. At 6:22pm on 29 Jan 2011, polite and kind wrote:

    "148. At 5:41pm on 29 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:
    #144 Oldloadr

    "You think? OK, tell me something I can see or do somewhere else in the world that I can’t see or do in the USA, besides:
    1. Suffer from diarrhea
    2. Look at really old buildings that haven’t been taken care of
    3. Get ripped off by street urchins""


    LOL to the troll.


    See restored buildings that were restored to their original ancient beauty.
    Meet an honest tradesman.
    Eat a real cheddar.

    Get seen by a doctor and not loose your arm and leg unless that was part of the complaint.

    Say " I'm an American " and not be taken as a racist fool who thinks all Americans are white and "Godly" , Which is what I would think of someone who is standing in Ohio with an American accent if they then decide to tell me"I'm an American"

    Fly the American flag and not be taken as someone that is , after a life time, still unsure of where they live so they have to remind themselves daily.(Admittedly it might draw other attention).

    Be free enough to say critical comments about the USA.

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  • 160. At 6:25pm on 29 Jan 2011, Andy Post wrote:

    Ref. 69, Studio One:

    "Terrorism is the new growth industry for taking control over the world."

    I would say just the opposite. Israel is an example where it has led to considerable success, but I can't think of another (and even in this case I would hazard to guess that having the most powerful country in the world committed to your success is more of a factor). States that sponsor terrorist activity may force themselves onto the world stage (e.g. Iran), but they're inevitably shackled with debilitating sanctions which cause their economies to crash and poverty and hopelessness to soar.

    When it comes to those cases where terrorism is wrapped in the garments of religion, the results are even worse, catastrophic even. The use of conventional arms in retaliation by the target countries invariably cause horrible casualties amongst uninvolved civilian populations, and the people of these countries lose the power to determine their own destinies because outside powers leverage their incredible economic advantage to force these countries to act in ways that are not in the interests of their people. Furthermore, a large proportion of the very limited resources these usually poverty stricken people have are set aside for security services, which in turn often end up solidifying authoritarian regimes (e.g. Pakistan).

    So, where do you see growth?

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  • 161. At 6:29pm on 29 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    #149 Oldloadr

    There is a REVOLUTION taking place !

    And you are using your possible DIARRHEA as an argument for your ignorance of it ???

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  • 162. At 6:32pm on 29 Jan 2011, BluesBerry wrote:

    Mohamed ElBaradei, an Egyptian opposition figure, former United Nations official and Nobel laureate who returned to Cairo Jan. 27 to join the protests, accused the US of “pushing Egypt and pushing the whole Arab world into radicalization with this inept policy of supporting repression.” U agree 100%.
    In a Jan. 26 critique, ElBaradei said he was “flabbergasted” by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s comments the previous day that Mubarak’s government was stable and should try to respond to the people’s needs. “If you would like to know why the United States does not have credibility in the Middle East, that is precisely the answer.” I agree 100%.
    The Obama administration’s calls for reform in Egypt are hopelessly behind history and are likely to be interpreted as “implicit American endorsement” of the old regime, which I think they are except the Americans want Sulieman instead of the old and used up Mubarek.
    The United States is all over the placem like a chicken with its head cut off:
    - affirming its continued support for Hosni Mubarak
    - articulating principles of what the protesters are calling for (except for actual regine change)
    - acting as though both camps can be reconciled.
    If the popular movement is seen as masterminded by Washington, “it could backfire” and Muslim extremists may exploit the situation for their own benefit, said Telhami, a Middle East fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington. “We’ve lost the ability to control events on the ground.”
    Egypt has been the anchor for U.S. foreign policy in the Arab world since the 1970s, and under Mubarak, has remained a strong defender of US interests in the region on a host of issues, from countering Iran’s nuclear aspirations to preventing weapons smuggling from Egypt to Gaza, as recent US cables released by WikiLeaks show.
    “The events in Egypt as well as in Tunisia, Yemen, Jordan, and Algeria should spark a broader rethink in America’s approach to the entire region,” Brian Katulis, a fellow at the Center for American Progress in Washington, wrote yesterday. “Currently, the Obama administration is largely stuck in a reactive and tactical crisis management mode on many key fronts.”

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  • 163. At 6:54pm on 29 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    Both America and Israel took the wrong bus almost 40 years ago --when Arafat was the conductor on the one that just left them behind !

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  • 164. At 7:42pm on 29 Jan 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    polite wrote: See restored buildings that were restored to their original ancient beauty.
    Meet an honest tradesman.
    Eat a real cheddar.
    ------------
    We may not have as many restored buildings, but there is a lot of beauty in the untouched nature of USA such as the national parks, including Grand Canyon, Painted Desert, Smokey Mts, Yellowstone and so on...

    I know lots and lots of honest, truly quality good people of all ages...some rural and yes, even some from the city, also...in fact, one from the city did a good deed for me the other day...that's America for ya...we have crazies like everyone else, but we also have among the best in the world...

    Is Wisconsin cheese not cheddary enough for ya?
    ---------------
    polite wrote: Get seen by a doctor and not loose your arm and leg unless that was part of the complaint.
    -------------
    Our health care system, like others, needs some work to fix the flaws...
    -------------
    polite wrote: Say " I'm an American " and not be taken as a racist fool who thinks all Americans are white and "Godly" , Which is what I would think of someone who is standing in Ohio with an American accent if they then decide to tell me"I'm an American"
    -------------
    Have you seen President Obama, polite?

    Serena Williams?
    Jennifer Lopez?
    John Cho?
    Nastia Liukin?
    Lisa Ling?
    Jay C? (the Indian guy from Supertroopers- love that movie!, not Jay Z)
    Randy from Idol?
    ------------
    polite wrote: Fly the American flag and not be taken as someone that is , after a life time, still unsure of where they live so they have to remind themselves daily.(Admittedly it might draw other attention).
    -----------
    Real Americans know who they are because we have true grit, stubborn determination and everlasting loyalty that is timeless...:)

    And we do good things just because its who many of us are...some in media, including foreign, focus on the bad and not hte good things, when there is so much to choose from...What usually takes the top news- the guy who killed someone or the medic who saved a life?

    There is so much positivity still...if you look for it.

    Helping develop cure or vaccine for AIDS, donating food/supplies/mosquito nets for poor, helping rescue Chilean and other miners, ect.

    Where is the love?

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  • 165. At 7:47pm on 29 Jan 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    The first question is: are these real protesters or are they people planted by an outside force to cause a ruckus?

    If its real Egyptians, then its their right to protest...

    What will happen if the Egyptian President steps aside?



    Will radical extremists take over?

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  • 166. At 8:37pm on 29 Jan 2011, polite and kind wrote:

    "Wisconsin cheese not cheddary enough for ya?"

    No and it's Cheddar with a capital C.;)


    We may not have as many restored buildings, but there is a lot of beauty in the untouched nature of USA such as the national parks, including Grand Canyon, Painted Desert, Smokey Mts, Yellowstone and so on...

    I know lots and lots of honest, truly quality good people of all ages...some rural and yes, even some from the city, also...in fact, one from the city did a good deed for me the other day...that's America for ya...we have crazies like everyone else, but we also have among the best in the world...."

    "but we also have among the best in the world."
    As do others.

    Natural wonders are Unique to their wonderers.
    All the world has natural wonders.

    But you can't see paintings on a cave wall or lucy's footprints in America, just as you can't see the snake mounds of Ohio in France.
    However you can as I said see restored buildings of great age .

    Yes the healthcare system could do with some work, it has to be said.


    " Have you seen President Obama, polite?

    Serena Williams?
    Jennifer Lopez?
    John Cho?
    Nastia Liukin?
    Lisa Ling?
    Jay C? (the Indian guy from Supertroopers- love that movie!, not Jay Z)
    Randy from Idol?"

    I can't figure out what you are saying here but will take a stab.
    Are you suggesting there are polite people here in the states?

    I can't figure out what you are saying here but I will agree Obama has had to defend his being American several times for no reason other than some peoples ...........


    I do note you list a bunch of people of ethnic minorities but frankly wonder why.

    Americans can be very positive. I have noticed that.
    Some are positive the world was made 23000 years ago.
    Others positive they live with the best healthcare in the world.
    Still more are positive that we should keep attacking every Arab we can find an excuse to attack.

    Others are positive that there was no relationship between two years of rhetoric about attacking democrats with guns and someone attacking a democrat with a gun.

    I live here Lucy. I can see the good but I will not ignore the reality. To do so accepts the reality.
    Yes a nice man saved some lives. That is no exception. Every day very nice people save lives.
    The exception last month was the shooting not the saving. But given the press's reaction you might be forgiven for thinking otherwise.
    There are many nice Americans , yes. I am one of them.


    "Helping develop cure or vaccine for AIDS, donating food/supplies/mosquito nets for poor, helping rescue Chilean and other miners, ect."


    I'm sorry but you sound like MA there.You use the word "help" a lot are helping in all those directions you mention.Please do not pretend we are the only ones, it is impolite to all that are also doing good works. Do you see British posters mentioning that OXFAM is one of theirs.
    That the Live aid concert that did so much to raise awareness of Ethiopian starvation was a Irish man.
    That the fertility treatments that make so many so happy were started in the UK.
    That the Russians developed the concept of the quick chill to stop people dying of brain injury.
    That the rest of the world also donates their time and money.

    Exceptionalism is not polite or nice to look at.

    Enjoy the sun if you have some today. I will. There is another good thing abut the USA.
    Great sunny weather.



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  • 167. At 8:39pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    polite and kind, (#156. At 6:15pm on 29 Jan 2011)

    ”... Soon when the Isreali's use 2000 lb bombs to stop the people they "control" from importing cookies the US might have to act in an equal fashion”
    Mmmm. That “soon” might be a while.

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  • 168. At 8:43pm on 29 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    153 Thanks Bluesberry....but if you imagine that people as deeply brainwashed as these folks will respond to real evidence and facts please spare a thought/prayer for them and for us ordinary Brits before them.

    From our cradles we were encouraged to believe that our parents and our societies were a beacon of decency and rectitude in an otherwise rather sordid wicked world.

    We only fought wars to defend ourselves from evil and to liberate others from evil.

    Our society took refugees from persecution and certainly not as cheap labour to undercut organised indigenous labour.

    We had not recently been pirates and slavers and murdered people to take their land and assets....no...we had just converted them to christianity and given them their human rights and freedom .

    I could go on and on ...but the movies of the period would flesh out what I am trying to say.

    Then there were the poor saps who fought our "campaigns of liberation"...I`ve had to help a few of those...like the chap who shot up a building full of "terrorists" only to find he had shot up a schoolroom!

    And no doubt ex CIA operatives like Osama Bin Laden could tell you lots more like that......but like the Assanges and Mannings of this world they won`t get to do it ...because we are too ashamed or brainwashed to listen...or our elites will stop us fraternising with the "enemy".

    Yet let`s remember this...we are no worse than the rest of mankind...and if we have any sense we will join together and figure out a way to help everyone live a lot better and more harmoniously together.

    But first we need to swallow our pride and listen to the ideas left to us by the Enlightenment and by philosophers and in the Bible and the other religious texts...only this time with a modern rationaland sceptical eye.....after we have struck a deal with the "markets" and ended the Era of Usury and Debt that currently looks set to destroy our civilisation.

    Time to end first world debt NOW!

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  • 169. At 8:48pm on 29 Jan 2011, JClarkson wrote:

    #150


    "Second, what about Somalia? Nigeria? Sudan? You don't get much poorer than that."


    What else do those three countries have in common? Then see my post #39 and what it was in reply to.



    "Third, I was talking about the Arab world, but Israel has a history of the use of terrorist tactics. They don't deny it."


    You can't separate Islam from the "Arab world", nor can you separate the "Arab world" from Islam.


    Poverty does not cause people to blow themselves up, unless they are poor AND Muslim, it seems. Why is that?

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  • 170. At 8:50pm on 29 Jan 2011, Andy Post wrote:

    Ref. 165, LucyJ:

    "The first question is: are these real protesters or are they people planted by an outside force to cause a ruckus?"

    From what I've heard from people who claim to know (diplomats, journalists, etc.), this is a legitimate home grown movement. These are your average Joes looking for a better day.

    "If its real Egyptians, then its their right to protest..."

    Agreed.

    "What will happen if the Egyptian President steps aside?"

    Well, now, there's the $64,000 question. Nobody seems to know. It's up to the Egyptians (as it should be). One thing everyone seems to agree with is that it's wrong to conflate Egypt with the rest of the Arab world. Yes, they're Arabs (certainly), but Egypt has long and distinguished history of its own, and they're not likely to be a domino (unless its the first one). From what I understand, Egyptians take their own counsel first and foremost.

    "Will radical extremists take over?"

    Maybe, but right now those folks are staying home. They have no support in the streets at present. In fact, it's probably too dangerous for them to raise their heads right now. There seems to be awareness that success is more likely if they don't scare Washington. I agree. In fact it may be possible to get America to use its leverage in their favor if they don't.

    I urge my country to recognize that it has relations with Egypt, not with any particular group of Egyptians. Yes, we'll always have to deal with Cairo, but the makeup of that government is up to Egyptians.

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  • 171. At 9:23pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    President Obama,

    Remember, "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."

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  • 172. At 10:02pm on 29 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    171...Listen ..this isn`t a seance...people need to know what you arch meddlers are actually going to do now you have your tentacles in every nation`s political and economic lives!

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  • 173. At 10:10pm on 29 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    #171 Chryses


    "---and those interests it is our duty to follow."


    -- the problem is to know the consequences of them years ahead ?

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  • 174. At 10:15pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    worcesterjim,

    As I'm sure you'll agree that those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it, you'll appreciate that I'm trying to steer President Obama in the best direction.

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  • 175. At 10:22pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    polite and kind, (#166. At 8:37pm on 29 Jan 2011)

    ”... Others are positive that there was no relationship between two years of rhetoric about attacking democrats with guns and someone attacking a democrat with a gun.
    Oh pooh! That type of rhetoric goes back a bit further than two years. Surely you are familiar with the “{your entry here} in effigy” images?

    Google “Bush Burned in Effigy at @ the Taste”
    [url goes here]
    Google “Throwing Shoes At Bush in SF” Note what they are teaching the children.
    [url goes here]
    Google “Sarah Palin hung in effigy”
    [url goes here]

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  • 176. At 10:26pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    quietoaktree, (#173. At 10:10pm on 29 Jan 2011)

    "... the problem is to know the consequences of them years ahead?"

    The future ain't what it used to be.

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  • 177. At 10:37pm on 29 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    Must LucyJ´s totally irrelevant contribution be discussed when a revolution in Egypt is the topic ???


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  • 178. At 10:39pm on 29 Jan 2011, McJakome wrote:

    Back when the demonstrations were on against the Shah, I was in Iran. I experienced the personal kindness of Iranian people while cringing at the often referred to reinstatement of the Shah by the CIA after the Iranian people had elected a democratic reformer, Mosadegh.

    Most of the educated [often in the USA] people I met wanted the Shah out. Those willing to discuss it with me [dangerous practice because of the Savak agents] were positive that anything would be better. My apologies for Mosadegh's removal and cautions about change leading possibly to worse were largely ignored. “Nothing could be worse than this corrupt Shahanshah!”

    When Jimmy Carter did the honorable [but in retrospect may be seen by some as unwise] thing, letting the Iranian people follow the principles established by our Declaration of Independence, those western educated people had what they wanted. They had it for a very short time because the second wave of revolution tossed out democracy, modernity and moderation.

    To repeat what I said before, the Polyannas are often wrong and the Cassandras are often right. I shared some of the philosophy of the Iranians yearning to breathe free, I shared some of the disgust with the U.S. government actions that had Americans marching in the streets against Vietnam. But my eyes were always open, and I could not swallow the unrealistic world view or accept the unchallenged dogmas.

    I was told that I couldn’t be a socialist or progressive because I kept wondering about the gaping holes in the pretty theories and the real world actions of their heroes like Castro, Lenin, Stalin and Mao. I am also too libertarian to be a Republican, too honest to be a Democrat and too pragmatic to be a leftist. This situation disturbs me because I really can’t see any good course of action. This whole situation is problematic because almost any action or inaction can [and probably will] have dire consequences.

    The best we can hope for is luck and the old British “muddle through,” and history reveals that that, too, has not always had the best result.

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  • 179. At 10:59pm on 29 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    #178 JMM

    --to be wrong and admit it is no sin.

    -- only to defend to the death you were never and will never be wrong.

    ---anyone willing to stick their neck out and look into the Crystal Ball on Egypt -- We can take a turn each ?

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  • 180. At 11:02pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    178. At 10:39pm on 29 Jan 2011, JMM wrote:
    ”... The best we can hope for is luck and the old British “muddle through,” and history reveals that that, too, has not always had the best result.”
    Comments like that have Hegel spinning in his grave!

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  • 181. At 11:26pm on 29 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    178 JMM...Your sentiments resonate strongly with me but nature abhors a vacuum.In an attempt to do the perfectly correct best thing we can agonise too much and by default let the usual psychopathic messiahs install one repressive regime after another.But are we gods? Have we the right to keep meddling anyway?

    And however good our intentions we can`t set other people free if our elites or financiers or the markets or Islam or tribal culture are determined to outsmart us.As soon as our forces leave Afghanistan what do we KNOW will happen?

    We really have to stop trying to run the world and fight our own battles with global capitalism (and the markets) which are currently lending us money at interest to fight wars for THEIR benefit!

    And it`s the same with our other main borrowing .....we are borrowing trillions of dollars to bankroll the global financiers whose behaviour caused the crash!

    And while this is going on our jobs are being exported to China while the world`s poor are being imported to become a burden on us without our politicians stopping it happening!

    I think it`s time we took control back over OUR lives....and built stronger western countries ....and let the Muslim and other worlds mind their own business without interference ...while we make North America and Europe real social democracies to be proud of and an example to the rest of the world.

    There`s no need for socialism....we can blend small scale honest regulated capitalism with decent first world public services ....like the Scandinavians did very successfully until Friedmanism was unleashed on them.

    Any fool can see that we can`t compete with slave economies.... and Friedman and his pals should have been laughed out of town at the beginning.

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  • 182. At 00:17am on 30 Jan 2011, McJakome wrote:

    180. At 11:02pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:
    178. At 10:39pm on 29 Jan 2011, JMM wrote:
    ”'... The best we can hope for is luck and the old British “muddle through,” and history reveals that that, too, has not always had the best result.”
    Comments like that have Hegel spinning in his grave!"

    My dear Chryses, you are trying to stand me on my head, but I refuse to be up-ended.

    I'm not really sure why you chose Hegel, though. My remarks seem, to me, to be more like Lao Tzu, Greek & Roman Cynics [κυνισμός not the modern ones]or some Christian monasticists.

    Are you sure you have the right German, I'm more partial to Kant?


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  • 183. At 00:26am on 30 Jan 2011, BienvenueEnLouisiana wrote:

    Bluesberry: "My point is that the United does not, has not, and most likely never will support DEMOCRATICALLY-elected governments."

    Your point is completely absurd. Most of the coups you cited took place during the Cold War; we don't live in that world anymore. Here is an incomplete list of democratic countries that the US supports and will continue to support: S. Korea, Japan, Australia, Indonesia, the Philippines, India, Canada, Mexico, Panama, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Chile, Argentina, Brazil, all of democratic Europe (before & after Hitler & the Soviets), turkey, Israel, Iraq, S. Africa, etc. Need I go on? I understand that you have a problem with the CIA and all the things that the agency has and has not done through history, but when you get wrapped up in this kind of stuff you give yourself tunnel vision. Tunnel vision about the evils of the CIA will not help the Egyptians gain a more free society.

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  • 184. At 00:32am on 30 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    #181 WJ

    " I think it`s time we took control back over OUR lives.."

    -- When did we and which countries had that ????

    --either we were enslaved or we enslaved others was the past and probably will be the future.

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  • 185. At 01:33am on 30 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    157. At 6:17pm on 29 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:
    Oldloadr, (144. At 5:26pm on 29 Jan 2011)
    ”... tell me something I can see or do somewhere else in the world that I can’t see or do in the USA ...”
    Dawn over the herds on the Serengeti Plain. (It really is impressive)
    [url available through google]
    The coral reefs of the Red Sea.
    [url available through google]
    The Eiffel Tower.
    [url available through google]
    The Vatican Museums.
    [url available through google]
    The Taj Mahal.
    [url available through google]
    etc.

    It seems that the mods to exception to the links. Sorry about that.
    ___________________________________________________
    In order:
    1. Dawn over the Great Plains with bison (we call them buffalo and really don’t care that it’s not accurate)
    2. The coral reefs of Waikiki (without sharia law)
    3. You do know it’s just a radio tower and it’s surrounded by Frenchmen (been there, done that, been harassed by Frogs trying to rip me off)
    4. We have the Smithsonian
    5. Just another mosque, but at least it’s a very old building that has been kept up with, I’ll give you that one

    I appreciate that lots of people like to experience other cultures and I used to like that, but as I get older, every contact I have with other cultures, just makes me more proud to be American.


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  • 186. At 01:39am on 30 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    159. At 6:22pm on 29 Jan 2011, polite and kind wrote:
    Your “real Cheddar” tastes no different from the cheese from Wisconsin. The rest of your list doesn’t really answer the questions I set out, but I’m sure they made you feel very superior.

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  • 187. At 01:44am on 30 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    161. At 6:29pm on 29 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:
    #149 Oldloadr

    There is a REVOLUTION taking place !

    And you are using your possible DIARRHEA as an argument for your ignorance of it ???
    _______________________________________________________________


    I guess you missed the part where I said I have lived in or been to over 20 countries and currently live in the Middle East so, NO, I haven’t missed a thing. The premise I started with is I would advise my fellow Americans to not bother roaming overseas as all they would get for their efforts, that they wouldn’t get at home, is dysentery. Did you miss that part?

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  • 188. At 02:03am on 30 Jan 2011, Stevenson wrote:

    the blog on Europe is pathetic im sorry to say about having posts removed--dare to publish this please...

    Someone is going through and having every adverse opinion removed--so rejoinders or debate is impossible there.

    You'll will find most here instead....also, Mr. G. Hewitt posts so rarely that the blog is worthless ..

    to me now

    And i dont go there...for the above reasons...its a rare blog entry and its a few posts then closed...

    Why bother?

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  • 189. At 02:07am on 30 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    JMM, (#182. At 00:17am on 30 Jan 2011)

    ”My dear Chryses, you are trying to stand me on my head, but I refuse to be up-ended ...”
    Who? Me?

    ... Are you sure you have the right German, I'm more partial to Kant?”
    I read your position on History that it is not logical. Hegel saw it unfolding deterministically. He might have had this very contretemps in mind when he penned, “What experience and history teaches us is that people and governments have never learned anything from history, or acted on principles deduced from it.”

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  • 190. At 02:09am on 30 Jan 2011, Stevenson wrote:

    I DO know 'bout "Egypt's people revolution"..its a disease that no dictator wants to catch but it spreads ..inexorably..funny that

    But, congrats to the Arab people for showing so much fortitude and courage--the only thing is...

    Will they feel like the "east" Europe people 10 yrs later--disillusioned..from today's euphoria?

    And is China next?

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  • 191. At 02:24am on 30 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    Oldloadr, (#185. At 01:33am on 30 Jan 2011)
    "...5. Just another mosque, but at least it's a very old building that has been kept up with, I'll give you that one ..."
    The Taj Mahal is a mausoleum, not a mosque. However, as you brought up the subject, the mosques of Cairo are to die for! (sorry about that, the Devil made me do it!) In order:
    #1. Mohamed Ali Mosque (Citadel of Saladin). It is an Ottoman style mosque in the gorgeous setting of Salah-al-din's citadel above the city.
    #2. Al Rifai Mosque. The burial place of the Shah of Iran and King Farouk, this mosque is like the Westminster Abbey of Cairo. I've enjoyed both, so I'm entitled to make the comparison.
    #3. Mosque of Ibn Tulun. The oldest mosque in Cairo, with tons of history!

    "...I appreciate that lots of people like to experience other cultures and I used to like that, but as I get older, every contact I have with other cultures, just makes me more proud to be American."
    Dude, being American rocks! It's just that being an American is only one way of being human, and the other ways are also splendid!

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  • 192. At 02:29am on 30 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    Stevenson, (#188. At 02:03am on 30 Jan 2011)
    ”the blog on Europe is pathetic im sorry to say about having posts removed--dare to publish this please...”
    Bummer! Welcome!

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  • 193. At 04:03am on 30 Jan 2011, McJakome wrote:

    189. At 02:07am on 30 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:
    JMM, (#182. At 00:17am on 30 Jan 2011)

    ”My dear Chryses, you are trying to stand me on my head, but I refuse to be up-ended ...”
    Who? Me?

    "... Are you sure you have the right German, I'm more partial to Kant?”
    I read your position on History that it is not logical. Hegel saw it unfolding deterministically."

    I am afraid I have to disagree with you. Neither history nor my reading of it is illogical. History does not repeat itself, human reactions to things [within cultural norms] tend to be similar if not the same. I suppose one could call that deterministic in a flexible sense. Walk up to someone on a city street and, no matter where you are in the world, punching him in the nose will produce a fairly similar result.

    There is always a certain kind of logic in the reactions unless religion gets into play. A Buddhist, Hindu or real Christian might turn the other cheek, but most humans have a certain amount of aggressive potential that is pretty similar everywhere [in my experience].

    Gestalts [families, groups tribes and nations] are not exactly the same as individuals, but the range of actions and responses is neither infinite nor illogical nor [in a general sense] unpredictable. But, again, I would not use the word deterministic.

    One could call this determinist, but I think it is too general, and there are too wide a variety of possible responses to fit that category.
    I can't predict what, exactly, the US or Israel would do if North Korea on one hand or Iran on the other lobbed missiles into sovcereign territory, but the array of possibilities is somewhat limited [one can exclude throwing them a party, sending thanks, etc.].

    I also reject the very deterministic Calvinist presdestination, by the way.

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  • 194. At 04:27am on 30 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #147

    I'd like to apologize that I forgot to mention such well known an respected journalist as BBC's former Political Editor, Robin Oakley (OBE)
    among some of those BBC broadcasters who left for CNN.


    And have not mentioned that such well known (former)BBC anchors/reporters like Stephen Cole, Darren Jordon, Rageh Omaar, Barbara Serra or Mark Seddon were among those who chose to join al-Jazeera.

    [not that I have any respect for the latter outfit]

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  • 195. At 06:45am on 30 Jan 2011, BienvenueEnLouisiana wrote:

    MilwaukeeRay: "'....governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.'

    Obama should quote it in his next speech and then let the chips fall where they may."

    That's an excellent idea, MilwaukeeRay; it would ease America's nerves and send a clear message to the world. Can you imagine the excitement?

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  • 196. At 07:11am on 30 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    193 The Israelis might not throw a party but they could pop over to Iran (I much prefer Persia as a name...it`s so biblical!)for a cup of coffee.

    I was reading once about a Middle East conference (where the usual posturing and polarisation was being generated by clumsy western attempts to patronise the natives into submission) and the correspondent wrote that he couldn`t understand why an Israeli and a Persian were in a corner having such an animated and apparently friendly discussion....until one of their security men explained to him that the Israeli and the Persian had grown up in the same town in Iran and knew each other well!

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  • 197. At 07:28am on 30 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    195 Louisiana and Milwaukee have a good point.

    The people who left Europe to found the USA were dissidents and revolutionaries ...well versed in the ideas that caused revolutions in Europe...and hungry for freedom.

    It`s just a bit ironic really that what starts well is so easily and predictably corrupted by the realities of exercising power over others.

    But that`s something to consider in depth...we constantly portray the poor as justly disaffected ....but if you mix with the powerful it soon becomes apparent that they struggle too.

    Consider for a moment how much freedom of action and autonomy a president of your nation really has? Can he paddle his own canoe?

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  • 198. At 07:33am on 30 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    By the way...Persians are really Zaroastrians...and their devotion to Islam is skin deep.

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  • 199. At 07:40am on 30 Jan 2011, Stevenson wrote:

    I'm no more scared of the "Muslim Brotherhood" than I am of the tea party... self described party of rebellion.

    They are popular thru intimidation and not with real intellectual type people--they remind me of the "know nothings" of the turn of the last century..wanting to turn back time and go back before Pandora's box was opened ..to say ..the pre-renaissance period.

    This would highlight their proud lack of knowledge and the furthering of ignorance--

    that will appeal only to the few proud "know nothings."

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  • 200. At 07:44am on 30 Jan 2011, Stevenson wrote:

    Btw, who needs friends..who are clueless..unless it's Al Jazeera's gossip show

    THEY Need friends for profit..make them into a News organization instead a poli-gossip site..that will make em honest!

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  • 201. At 07:45am on 30 Jan 2011, Stevenson wrote:

    One should have standards!

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  • 202. At 07:48am on 30 Jan 2011, Stevenson wrote:

    oh, I saw the best film of the decade..new decade..."Sunshine"..by Danny Boyle -- a UK director..was left drained and in awe.

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  • 203. At 07:50am on 30 Jan 2011, Stevenson wrote:

    TY, Mark Mardell for exploring neutrally and often openly clarified issues!

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  • 204. At 08:59am on 30 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    This just in: I just saw a panel of talking heads from a network not known for being either anti-American or left-leaning (i.e. FOX) give Julian Assange at least partial credit for the events occurring in Tunisia and Egypt due to the content of his leaks.

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  • 205. At 09:40am on 30 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    204 The truth shall set you free...but then the chap who said that got nailed to a cross!

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  • 206. At 09:43am on 30 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:


    Re #204 Oldloadr

    The group Anonymous has issued a warning to the U.K. government after five men suspected of having connections to the group were arrested yesterday.

    The group said it viewed the arrests as a "declaration of war" by the British authorities.

    "Anonymous believes...that pursuing this direction is a sad mistake on your behalf. Not only does it reveal the fact that you do not seem to understand the present-day political and technological reality, we also take this as a serious declaration of war from yourself, the UK government, to us, Anonymous, the people," the group said yesterday in a statement."


    Interesting, wouldn't ya say considering that those outfits claimed that the greatest threat to them would come from the Evil Empire (read: U.S.) with Mr. Assange having claimed that he could be assassinated by American special services.

    And yet he's still alive and well in an area where even the most inept operative could dispose of him if his bosses really wanted A. dead. :)



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  • 207. At 09:49am on 30 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re MidEastern free media...

    Some newspapers in Iran retouched a photograph of EU foreign policy chief Baroness Ashton to make her outfit less revealing, an Iranian website reports.

    Asriran.com showed Iranian press pictures of Lady Ashton next to Iran's chief nuclear negotiator, Saeed Jalili, with her black top raised higher than in the original.

    Iranian papers often retouch images, a BBC Persian Service journalist says. (BBC)



    No wonder they don't have any Wet Burka contests in that country. :-(

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  • 208. At 09:54am on 30 Jan 2011, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #199
    Stevenson wrote:
    I'm no more scared of the "Muslim Brotherhood" than I am of the tea party... self described party of rebellion.

    They are popular thru intimidation and not with real intellectual type people--they remind me of the "know nothings" of the turn of the last century..wanting to turn back time and go back before Pandora's box was opened ..to say ..the pre-renaissance period.

    ______________

    I would normaly pass this off as typical Tea Party bashing, but others also don't regard the moslem brotherhood as a terrorist group.

    Listenng to a liberal media source (which I do so I can answer theother sides arguments) Democracy Now a professor from Kent State insisted that the Moslem Brotherhood was a tolerant fanction.

    the Tea Party has not committed terrorists acts and is not racists against ethnic groups or religions as the Moslem Brotherhood is

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  • 209. At 09:59am on 30 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 210. At 10:06am on 30 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    205. At 09:40am on 30 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:
    204 The truth shall set you free...but then the chap who said that got nailed to a cross!
    _________________________________________________
    2 thoughts:

    1. The entire quote: John 8:32 (King James Version)
    "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." The truth only sits you free if you know that it (the truth) exists; ala the internet in the case of Egypt.

    2. Yes, he was nailed to the cross; the only perfect person to ever live by a mob of people who thought they were perfect. However, that’s not the end of the story, is it?



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  • 211. At 10:17am on 30 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    209. At 09:59am on 30 Jan 2011, you wrote:
    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
    ________________________________________
    I can’t imagine what the house has against beer and bar-b-q with female form admiration and singing religious songs…

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  • 212. At 10:24am on 30 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    211 Perhaps the Moslem Brotherhood have taken charge already?

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  • 213. At 10:46am on 30 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    powermeerkat, (207. At 09:49am on 30 Jan 2011)
    ”... No wonder they don't have any Wet Burka contests in that country. :-(“
    Perhaps the water cannons on the streets of Cairo were trying to make up for that lack. Those Cairene are leading edge folk.

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  • 214. At 10:48am on 30 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    Oldloadr, (#211. At 10:17am on 30 Jan 2011)
    ”I can’t imagine what the house has against beer and bar-b-q with female form admiration and singing religious songs…”
    Jealousy?

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  • 215. At 10:52am on 30 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    powermeerkat, (#194. At 04:27am on 30 Jan 2011)
    ... well known (former)BBC anchors/reporters like Stephen Cole, Darren Jordon, Rageh Omaar, Barbara Serra or Mark Seddon were among those who chose to join al-Jazeera ...”
    Do you know what was their motivation?

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  • 216. At 10:55am on 30 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    Oldloadr, (#210. At 10:06am on 30 Jan 2011)
    ”... However, that’s not the end of the story, is it?”
    Hardly!

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  • 217. At 11:32am on 30 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Chryses wrote:
    powermeerkat, (#194. At 04:27am on 30 Jan 2011)
    ... well known (former)BBC anchors/reporters like Stephen Cole, Darren Jordon, Rageh Omaar, Barbara Serra or Mark Seddon were among those who chose to join al-Jazeera ...”
    Do you know what was their motivation?



    In at least one case - yes.

    In case of broadcasters moving to CNN - in 3.

    But, I don't think you'd expect me to reveal what some 3d parties told me privately they were making/are making anymore than revealing here how much you make, if you told me that privately yourself, would you now? :-)

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  • 218. At 11:44am on 30 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    Stevenson, (#199. At 07:40am on 30 Jan 2011)
    "I'm no more scared of the "Muslim Brotherhood" than I am of the tea party ..."
    Are you aware that Hamas is the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood?

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  • 219. At 11:53am on 30 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    powermeerkat, (#217. At 11:32am on 30 Jan 2011)
    "... But, I don't think you'd expect me to reveal what some 3d parties told me privately they were making/are making anymore than revealing here how much you make, if you told me that privately yourself, would you now? :-)"
    So the claim that "BBC journalists have moved to Al-Jazeera just to make more money," remains unfounded.

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  • 220. At 11:58am on 30 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    218 What is Zionism a branch of and why is Geert Wilders such a good friend of Israel? One man`s simple observation can be another man`s conspiracy theory?

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  • 221. At 12:23pm on 30 Jan 2011, BluesBerry wrote:

    So Egypt has a VP, a possible sucessor to President Hosni Mubarak.
    His name is Omar Suleiman.
    Actually, is not new to those who has followed American policy of renditions.
    Mubarak appointed Suleiman, an alternative to Mubarak’s son Gamal Mubarak.
    Suleiman is well-known in Washington. He is slick, fluent in English; he has served for years as the main pipeline between the United States and Mubarak. He a reputation for loyalty; he has some controversial history, especially in regards to human rights.
    Since 1993 Suleiman has headed the feared Egyptian General Intelligence service, which made Sulieman the CIA’s point-of-contact in Egypt; this included for purposes of renditions — that covert program that snatched alleged terror suspects from off the streets for interrogation, mostly always under brutal conditions (aka torture).
    Suleiman negotiated directly with top CIA officials. Every rendition was authorized at the highest levels of both the US and Egyptian intelligence.
    Suleiman was cognisant (if not mastermind) of every low-down, dirty, political ploy that occurred in Egypt. Supposedly, US law required the CIA to seek “assurances” from Egypt that rendered suspects wouldn’t face torture, but Suleiman’s reign at the intelligence service, walked around such assurances.
    Michael Scheuer - former CIA officer - who helped set up rendition, testified before Congress, even if such “assurances” were written in indelible ink, “they weren’t worth a bucket of warm spit.”
    This is the VP that Mubarek wants to inherit Egypt and/or:
    THIS IS THE VP THAT THE UNITED STATES WANTS TO INHERIT EGYPT.

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  • 222. At 12:26pm on 30 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    worcesterjim, (#220. At 11:58am on 30 Jan 2011)
    "What is Zionism a branch of and why is Geert Wilders such a good friend of Israel? One man`s simple observation can be another man`s conspiracy theory?"
    Why do you ask?

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  • 223. At 12:50pm on 30 Jan 2011, american grizzly wrote:

    Let Eygpt chart its own course, and while we are at it. Lets get out of Iraq and Afghanistan. The US is heading for collapse what with runaway illegal immigration, anchor babies (which are not in the Constitution as past precendence has shown in past cases). Something like $2 billion a month in Afghanistan. Plus corrupt elected officals of the old party structures (Dem &Rep). Plus what we send to Eygpt $$$, Israel, and numerous others seeking $$$$$$.
    It won't be long before like Sudan, Kosovo, that there probably will be attempts to secede and separate for Muslims in Belgium, UK; and I believe France has the biggest percentage population of Muslims. (But there isn't a census of this type in most European nations, or they don't answer the question, so I've heard, ignorance is bliss by government?) Then I guess Sharia law which is being practiced some what limited in the UK will be the norm.
    "Previously, the rulings of sharia courts in Britain could not be enforced, and depended on voluntary compliance among Muslims.

    It has now emerged that sharia courts with these powers have been set up in London, Birmingham, Bradford and Manchester with the network’s headquarters in Nuneaton, Warwickshire. Two more courts are being planned for Glasgow and Edinburgh.

    Sheikh Faiz-ul-Aqtab Siddiqi, whose Muslim Arbitration Tribunal runs the courts, said he had taken advantage of a clause in the Arbitration Act 1996.

    Under the act, the sharia courts are classified as arbitration tribunals. The rulings of arbitration tribunals are binding in law, provided that both parties in the dispute agree to give it the power to rule on their case." Source the Sunday Times

    Let Eygpt find it own path, but it will probably be a nation of Islamic persecution and Dhimmi status for the rest. I guess the Coptics may have Dhimmi status, or maybe with this slaughter it may have been revoked in the eyes of in Eygpt seeking to eliminate all none Muslims.

    "A dhimmi (Arabic: ‎ ), (collectively ahl al-dhimmah , "the people of the dhimma or people of the contract") is a non-Muslim subject of a state governed in accordance with sharia law. ..."
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

    The Muslim nations have to find their own path, it may be one of intolerance and persecution. I remember the quote of the American ambassador when the US fought against Sadaam. "In the Arab world they would rather have 999 years of tyranny, than one year of instability."
    So will it change in Eygpt, the answer is with the young I suppose, better educated, perhaps they will reject the Mullahs of the radical Islamics. But it depends who has the majority of the fingers on the triggers.

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  • 224. At 12:52pm on 30 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    The contacts between Israel and European anti-moslem Parties has increased.

    Fascists are strange bed-fellows --and somewhat treacherous.

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/geert-wilders-very-own-two-state-solution-1.323575

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/141103

    So israel is in support of religious hatred in Europe ?



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  • 225. At 12:57pm on 30 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    222...To expose your game of course...why do YOU ask?

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  • 226. At 1:00pm on 30 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Chryses wrote:
    powermeerkat, (#217. At 11:32am on 30 Jan 2011)
    "... But, I don't think you'd expect me to reveal what some 3d parties told me privately they were making/are making anymore than revealing here how much you make, if you told me that privately yourself, would you now? :-)"

    So the claim that "BBC journalists have moved to Al-Jazeera just to make more money," remains unfounded.


    Nope, Chryses, the general trend is a common knowledge; it's just you won't get any specifics from me. I have more sense than that.
    [There are plenty of other sources, including trade papers, AFTA fora..] etc.]

    And BTW. since it is you who seem to be questiong veracity of what I wrote re general and obvious trend known to anybody in the industry, it is you who should prove that that's not the case, not the other way round.

    [last time I checked it was not a defendant who had prove his innocence]

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  • 227. At 1:25pm on 30 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    #221 BluesBerry

    An American- Mubarak- Army Plan is in place to keep the status-quo. That was made when the Egyptian army Chief-of -Staff was in Washington.

    The lesser of the two evils (for America) would be that Mubarak goes but his henchmen stay -as you say.

    If a massacre of civilians occurs --both the US and Israel will be rightly held responsible -- and a Middle East uprising is likely -- with terrible consequences.

    Hamas is attempting to keep its militant factions from crossing into Egypt to ´assist´ the uprising and Israel has been told to keep its mouth shut.

    -- and Iran is clapping its hands in glee.

    --- What a mess !

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  • 228. At 1:38pm on 30 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    America has stated the obvious --A re-shuffle of the Egyptian government is unacceptable.

    Now America puts its faith in the Egyptian Army to hold the Middle East Together !

    Local Egyptian TV stations have asked Egyptians NOT TO WATCH Aljazeera.

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  • 229. At 1:38pm on 30 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    worcesterjim, (225. At 12:57pm on 30 Jan 2011I
    ”222...To expose your game of course...why do YOU ask?”
    What game is that? LOL!

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  • 230. At 1:50pm on 30 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    powermeerkat, (#226. At 1:00pm on 30 Jan 2011
    "...'So the claim that "BBC journalists have moved to Al-Jazeera just to make more money," remains unfounded.'
    Nope, Chryses, the general trend is a common knowledge; it's just you won't get any specifics from me. I have more sense than that ...
    ... it is you who should prove that that's not the case, not the other way round."

    You seem to be confused. You made the big claims; now, you back them up with corroborating evidence. Unless, of course, you are unable to substantiate your claims...
    You have yet to do so.

    Remember now, "... how many BBC journalists have moved to Al-Jazeera just to make more money ..."
    Good luck.

    [last time I checked it was not a defendant who had prove his innocence]
    Defendant ... defendant? LOL! You might want to check on just WHO made the accusations in post #127!

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  • 231. At 1:56pm on 30 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    The Egyptian Air Force fighter jets are are ´buzzing´ the demonstrators in Tahrir Square.

    More military trucks are also arriving.

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  • 232. At 2:03pm on 30 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    The demonstrators are becoming more angry and defiant.

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  • 233. At 2:10pm on 30 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    BluesBerry, (#221. At 12:23pm on 30 Jan 2011)
    "So Egypt has a VP, a possible sucessor to President Hosni Mubarak.
    His name is Omar Suleiman.
    ...
    This is the VP that Mubarek wants to inherit Egypt and/or:
    THIS IS THE VP THAT THE UNITED STATES WANTS TO INHERIT EGYPT."

    Do you want the U.S. to intervene to change that? If you do want the U.S. to intervene in this, what is your response to someone like JMM (#16), or worcesterjim (#18) who suggests that the U.S. should NOT intervene?

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  • 234. At 2:20pm on 30 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    #233 Chryses.

    This is the consequence of American Middle East policies ---INTERVENE ???

    America probably chose the VP.

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  • 235. At 2:32pm on 30 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    quietoaktree, (#234. At 2:20pm on 30 Jan 2011)
    ”... America probably chose the VP.”
    Interesting speculation.

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  • 236. At 2:32pm on 30 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    233 Chryses ...Surely this is another moment when Hilary Clinton could go in under fire and bring calm to the situation? Or have I misremembered the previous time?

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  • 237. At 2:56pm on 30 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    worcesterjim, (#236. At 2:32pm on 30 Jan 2011)
    ”Surely this is another moment when Hilary Clinton could go in under fire and bring calm to the situation? ...
    Woot! She’ll do this time the same way as she did it before!

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  • 238. At 2:57pm on 30 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    #235 Chryses

    -- Yes, America needs a new President --if plan A fails.

    ---even you could think that out ?

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  • 239. At 3:03pm on 30 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    236. At 2:32pm on 30 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:
    233 Chryses ...Surely this is another moment when Hilary Clinton could go in under fire and bring calm to the situation? Or have I misremembered the previous time?
    ____________________________________________________
    You are not mis-remembering what she said… ;)

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  • 240. At 3:10pm on 30 Jan 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    LJ wrote: "Will radical extremists take over?"

    Andy wrote: Maybe, but right now those folks are staying home. They have no support in the streets at present. In fact, it's probably too dangerous for them to raise their heads right now. There seems to be awareness that success is more likely if they don't scare Washington. I agree. In fact it may be possible to get America to use its leverage in their favor if they don't.
    -----------

    Um, Andy, I guess not all are staying home...

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110130/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_egypt_protest

    An excerpt:
    Egyptian security officials said that overnight armed men fired at guards in gun battles that lasted hours at the four prisons including one northwest of Cairo that held hundreds of militants. The prisoners escaped after starting fires and clashing with guards. Those who fled included 34 members of the outlawed Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt's largest and best organized opposition group.
    --------------

    I wonder if the Muslim Brotherhood is like the Black Panthers during the 60's in USA?

    ------------
    Andy wrote: I urge my country to recognize that it has relations with Egypt, not with any particular group of Egyptians. Yes, we'll always have to deal with Cairo, but the makeup of that government is up to Egyptians.
    ----------
    What will happen if majority of Egyptians vote democractically to instate Islamic law, like Sharia Law?

    Can't a group use democracy to further non-democratic means as long as its what majority wants?

    Cause' it seems like that is the direction tis headed...

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  • 241. At 3:22pm on 30 Jan 2011, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #240
    I wonder if the Muslim Brotherhood is like the Black Panthers during the 60's in USA?

    ------------
    Andy wrote: I urge my country to recognize that it has relations with Egypt, not with any particular group of Egyptians. Yes, we'll always have to deal with Cairo, but the makeup of that government is up to Egyptians.
    ----------
    What will happen if majority of Egyptians vote democractically to instate Islamic law, like Sharia Law?

    Can't a group use democracy to further non-democratic means as long as its what majority wants?

    Cause' it seems like that is the direction tis headed...
    __________

    I've heard interviews with experts and Egyptians on both the BBC and Fox saying that most Egyptians don't want Sharia law.
    But more Iranian don't want it either and would like the criminals mullahs put on trial.

    Islamic dictators are amnong the great human rights violators, along with NK, Burma and Bolviarian goverments

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  • 242. At 3:36pm on 30 Jan 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    polite wrote: I can't figure out what you are saying here but will take a stab.
    Are you suggesting there are polite people here in the states?
    --------
    I am suggesting that not everyone feels the same way you do about your previous statement on race...clearly, Americans come in all shapes, sizes and colors. But why should we put up with illegal foreign invasion?
    --------
    plite wrote: Americans can be very positive. I have noticed that.
    Some are positive the world was made 23000 years ago.
    Others positive they live with the best healthcare in the world.
    Still more are positive that we should keep attacking every Arab we can find an excuse to attack.
    ---------
    So you tend to look for the negative?
    What do you think is positive?
    ---------
    polite wrote: I live here Lucy. I can see the good but I will not ignore the reality. To do so accepts the reality.
    Yes a nice man saved some lives. That is no exception. Every day very nice people save lives.
    ----------
    I live here, also. I believe nice people saving lives are just as much as the exception as the opposite...why should 'exceptions' only be for negative things? Why can't it be for positive?
    -------------
    polite wrote:The exception last month was the shooting not the saving. But given the press's reaction you might be forgiven for thinking otherwise.
    There are many nice Americans , yes. I am one of them.
    ----------
    I disagree, to me, the saving was just as exceptional...
    Yes, I feel like I am a good person, as well.
    ----------
    polite wrote: I'm sorry but you sound like MA there.You use the word "help" a lot are helping in all those directions you mention.Please do not pretend we are the only ones, it is impolite to all that are also doing good works. Do you see British posters mentioning that OXFAM is one of theirs.
    That the Live aid concert that did so much to raise awareness of Ethiopian starvation was a Irish man.
    That the fertility treatments that make so many so happy were started in the UK.
    That the Russians developed the concept of the quick chill to stop people dying of brain injury.
    That the rest of the world also donates their time and money.
    --------
    I enjoyed reading MA's comments...if you mean MAII. I wonder what happened to him...Of course, people from other parts of the world do lots of good, also. I certainly don't disagree with that. I just think for all the gruff USA is given, often press looks/dwells for sensational, controversial, negative stories and overlooks the good ones...And RT actually had a good report on USA media the other day and how certain companies own the news channels and how they can sway a story any way they want...
    Like for example, how Disney owns ABC and ESPN, or Comcast owning NBC, ect. I'm not sure who owns CBS...I miss Dan Rather...

    Its very hard to find a news channel that is not owned by a corporation with special interests...the only one I know is PBS...

    I am not necessarily a fan of fertility treatments for various reasons but I will not mention them because I will be censored...
    ---------
    polite wrote: Enjoy the sun if you have some today. I will. There is another good thing abut the USA.
    Great sunny weather.
    -----------
    Well...for the most part. I imagine you could probably be somewhere like Florida or such...There's lotsa jokes about Illinois weather, cause' it never can make up its mind...

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  • 243. At 3:50pm on 30 Jan 2011, Ad wrote:

    240 LucyJ

    There's an item on the Muslim Brotherhod on wikipedia. It seems reasonably authoritative but I'll go no further than that as wikip. is only as accurate as the knowledge of whoever wrote the stuff.

    Anyway, I had already heard that the Muslim Brotherhood is a very old-established international movement and wikip. dates it back to 1928. It is very conservative but not totally swivel-eyed in its views. Some ultra-right members of the MB unhappy with what they regard as its 'moderation' have broken away from the Brotherhood and formed their own groups where eyes doubtless swivel uncontrollably.

    The MB has kept a low profile in the demonstrations (officially it's banned in Egypt) but we could be justified in wondering how much they are doing behind the scenes. My personal belief is that they're no more behind the demos than the CIA.

    This seems to me to be a spontaneous outburst of public anger (copy-catting Tunisia) against Mubarack and his cronies, now complicated by the participation of criminal elements, extremists, and the like, all jumping on the bandwaggon.

    One unresolved question is whether the police were withdrawn because of lack of numbers / panic or as deliberate policy, maybe to give a period for cooling-off while the Army guards key buildings. It would be great if any Egyptian bloggers could come in on this - but their Internet access has been cut. We need more light on the matter.

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  • 244. At 3:51pm on 30 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    #241 Magickirin

    "Islamic dictators are amnong the great human rights violators, along with NK, Burma and Bolviarian goverments"

    Never heard of who supported and installed the Middle and South American American dictators ?

    --- Bolivarian ??????

    Are your ideas of Human Rights new ???

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  • 245. At 3:53pm on 30 Jan 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    Stevenson wrote: I'm no more scared of the "Muslim Brotherhood" than I am of the tea party... self described party of rebellion.
    --------
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

    An excerpt:
    Between 1967 and 1987, the year Hamas was founded, the number of mosques in Gaza tripled from 200 to 600, and the Muslim Brotherhood named the period between 1975 and 1987 a phase of 'social institution building.'
    The Islamic Resistance Movement, or Hamas, founded in 1987 in Gaza, is a wing of the Brotherhood,[62] formed out of Brotherhood-affiliated charities and social institutions that had gained a strong foothold among the local population. During the First Intifada (1987–93), Hamas militarized and transformed into one of the strongest Palestinian militant groups.
    ----------

    USA designates Hamas as a terrorist organization...

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  • 246. At 3:57pm on 30 Jan 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    Stevenson wrote: I'm no more scared of the "Muslim Brotherhood" than I am of the tea party... self described party of rebellion.
    --------
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

    An excerpt:
    The Holy Land Foundation trial has led to the release as evidence of [76] several documents on the Muslim Brotherhood. One of these documents, dated in 1991, explains that the goal of the Muslim Brotherhood in the U.S. is “settlement”, defined by the author as a form of jihad aimed at destroying Western civilization from within and allowing for the victory of Islam over other religions.[77] In another one of these documents, "Ikhwan in America", the author alleges that the activities of the Muslim Brotherhood in the US include going to camps to do weapons training (referred to as Special work by the Muslim Brotherhood),[78] as well as engaging in counter-espionage against US government agencies such as the FBI and CIA (referred to as Securing the Group).[79] In November 2008 the Holy Land Foundation was found guilty of illegally funding Palestinian militant group Hamas, which is designated by the United States as a terrorist group.
    --------
    And that was in 2008?

    This just tells us how recent it happened, just a few years ago...

    Does this seem 'normal' to everyone?

    Its not to me...

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  • 247. At 3:58pm on 30 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    #243 Ad

    It appears that some looters caught last night were ID carrying police in civil clothes.

    --similar to what happened in Tunisia.

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  • 248. At 4:18pm on 30 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    #246 LucyJ

    --who is a terrorist and who is not a terrorist is presently being discussed on Egyptian streets.

    --no matter what you or America says -- or haven´t you noticed ?

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  • 249. At 4:26pm on 30 Jan 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    Ad wrote: This seems to me to be a spontaneous outburst of public anger (copy-catting Tunisia) against Mubarack and his cronies, now complicated by the participation of criminal elements, extremists, and the like, all jumping on the bandwaggon.
    --------
    I wonder what Mubarack did that made them so angry?

    By our pro-democratic stance, USA should back teh side of peaceful protesters (we don't back violent ones), even if we don't like what could come next- a new President possibly from the Muslim Brotherhood or one that may not like us, GB or Israel...

    Regardless of what we think, its up to Egypt to pick the person they want as President and to make their laws as they see fit...

    Even if its a non-democratic group using democracy to enforce what they want like Sharia law, ultimately its their land to create or destroy...

    USA can offer advice and what we feel about the situtation, but ultimately we should stay out of the uprising and yes, as other posters have said, simply let the chips fall where they may, because that's what's going to happen anyways...

    You can hear the Egyptians shouting on tv, I can read their body language, but it would be much more interesting to know what they are actually saying...

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  • 250. At 4:49pm on 30 Jan 2011, jimewins wrote:

    H. Clinton may speak for the government, but she doesn't speak for me or most of the people. Obama & his government were elected by the (result of) Bush presidency.

    "... he says America likes strong men without democratic backing, because "it is easy to pick up the phone and tell the leader what is expected from them".

    Unfortunately this is a correct statement and all suffer from this policy.

    Good on the Egyptians, we here in the US should do so well to throw off the yoke of democrats and republicans.

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  • 251. At 4:49pm on 30 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    LucyJ

    -- Their body language is other than you wish !

    --Mubarak and America GET OUT !

    --but maybe something has been lost in the translation ?

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  • 252. At 5:03pm on 30 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 253. At 5:28pm on 30 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    LucyJ

    Over 1000 Palestinian ´terrorists´have been ´freed´ from Egyptian jails.

    In Alexandria, more veiled women are joining the protests.

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  • 254. At 5:37pm on 30 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    The times they are a-changin'.

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  • 255. At 5:40pm on 30 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    #254 Chryses

    --and Tangled up in Blue.

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  • 256. At 6:24pm on 30 Jan 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    254, 255,
    One of my favorite Bob Dylan songs of all time, the song Changing of the Guards...

    One verse from the song:

    "Gentlemen, he said,
    I don't need your organization, I've shined your shoes,
    I've moved your mountains and marked your cards
    But Eden is burning, either brace yourself for elimination
    Or else your hearts must have the courage for the changing of the guards."

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  • 257. At 7:47pm on 30 Jan 2011, McJakome wrote:

    197. At 07:28am on 30 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:
    "...The people who left Europe to found the USA were dissidents and revolutionaries ...well versed in the ideas that caused revolutions in Europe...and hungry for freedom..."

    worcesterjim, you really need to leaven your politically biased understandings by reading some other POV's and some real academic history. As a starter I would recommend:
    'The Radicalism of the American Revolution' by Gordon S. Wood and 'Dissent: Voices of Conscience' by Ann Wright and Susan Dixon.
    The former might give you some perspective on the social changes in both Britain and the American colonies. The latter is contemporary and has a foreward by Daniel Ellsberg [considered a Communist by some of the other American posters].

    I took a course in historiography in which we read the history of the US as seem by Whigs, Patriots, Conservatives, Marxists, NeoMarxists, and some others. We tried to be unpartisan and clear eyed in evaluating them. Your posts show that your reading has been top-heavy with lefist sources, but you might start with the American old left historians, Charles and Mary Beard.

    Stay away from the Neocons, especially anything written [ghost- of course] by Palin, George W. Bush and that crowd.

    I highly recommend the Woods book, and would be very interested in having British readers point out any weaknesses in the parts relating to Britain.

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  • 258. At 8:06pm on 30 Jan 2011, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #244
    quietoaktree wrote:
    #241 Magickirin

    "Islamic dictators are amnong the great human rights violators, along with NK, Burma and Bolviarian goverments"

    Never heard of who supported and installed the Middle and South American American dictators ?

    --- Bolivarian ??????

    Are your ideas of Human Rights new ???


    _____________

    Hugo Chavex and the Castros imprison political oppnents and their elections are no more legitimate than Iran's o o Egypts.

    In the case of Bolivia, those living in the andean provinces are puntivly taxed and are not given the same rights and privilidges as Morales ethnic group.

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  • 259. At 9:29pm on 30 Jan 2011, polite and kind wrote:

    Lucy

    It doesn't matter how you try to dress that nationalism. it still doesn't look attractive.
    You bring it up you raise the issue don't make me go through a long list of how wrong it is to assume all those US goodies are US .
    I saw that here before. MA2 and his claims of superiority did no good to making anyone think Americans were not brash and rude and easily fooled.

    Now tell me about what a great Obama supporter you were again;) Chuckle.

    Inane positivity is a problem.
    Remember the positive thinking that the economy was fine.
    Remember the positive thinking that Iranians will welcome us with open arms.( They did but we threw toilet paper in their sewers so they gave up opening their arms).

    The world is helped by recognising the good things, but it is not so that ignoring the bad things is a help.
    Go on ,carry on writing about how great America is. Keep telling others to be positive. Buy Gold if you like.
    Glenn Beck is positive it will go up again.

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  • 260. At 9:30pm on 30 Jan 2011, polite and kind wrote:

    Oak you can walk around the UK at the moment without ID.
    Unlike the USA.

    As for the other examples being above your head, I am sorry, but able to give you some advice. Raise the bar you watch from.

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  • 261. At 9:34pm on 30 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    #258 MagicKirin

    ---with all due respect, but unless you are at least 50 years old and have followed politics seriously for at least 30 years --your comments on the lack of American subversion in Middle and South America -- must be taken with a grain of salt.

    http://www2.truman.edu/~marc/resources/interventions.html

    I suggest you begin your search for information with the above list.

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  • 262. At 9:50pm on 30 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    A correspondant from German ZDF TV has stated that the protesters were fewer today. He explained that the population are defending their homes ---which is the intention of the government.

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  • 263. At 9:57pm on 30 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    257 I am fully engaged in spreading my fevered leftist propoganda and making a sculpture and being a houseperson (along with my wife)...... and don`t have the brains to digest new information as I used to long ago when I soaked up Max Gluckman`s lectures and tried to understand Soros` pal Popper`s opaque ramblings JMM. I must regretfully decline this opportunity to put you right...or is it left?!

    I know what I know...but the powerful ignore sensible modest solutions and hang still on the obviously flawed ideas of the Friedmanites... because it SUITS them!

    It depresses me that your nation has never been less enlightened....but maybe a period of decline will sharpen your wits and disclose the sordid underpinnings of your recent prosperity ...and make you wiser people?

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  • 264. At 9:57pm on 30 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    #260 PaK

    "Oak you can walk around the UK at the moment without ID.
    Unlike the USA."

    Are you talking to me ??

    If not--sorry.
    If yes-- please explain ---Thanks.

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  • 265. At 9:58pm on 30 Jan 2011, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #261
    quietoaktree wrote:
    #258 MagicKirin

    ---with all due respect, but unless you are at least 50 years old and have followed politics seriously for at least 30 years --your comments on the lack of American subversion in Middle and South America -- must be taken with a grain of salt.

    http://www2.truman.edu/~marc/resources/interventions.html

    I suggest you begin your search for information with the above list.

    ____________

    Becker is listed in David Horwtiz's 1001 most dangerous proffessors

    No credbility.

    But you dont answer the argument about left wing despots.

    Hondures was able legaly to get rid of one.

    Venezuela, Cuba and Bolivia are still under authortarian rule.

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  • 266. At 10:11pm on 30 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 267. At 10:20pm on 30 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    #265 Magickirin

    "Venezuela, Cuba and Bolivia are still under authortarian rule."


    -- So is Egypt et. al. --- or haven´t you heard the news ?

    I cannot follow your argument --Maybe LucyJ can help you ?

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  • 268. At 09:05am on 31 Jan 2011, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #267
    quietoaktree wrote:
    #265 Magickirin

    "Venezuela, Cuba and Bolivia are still under authortarian rule."


    -- So is Egypt et. al. --- or haven´t you heard the news ?

    I cannot follow your argument --Maybe LucyJ can help you ?


    _____________

    Just pointing out the double standard that no calls for these dictators to step down.

    And that the U.S supports the progressive democracies in this hemishphere

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  • 269. At 12:43pm on 31 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:



    For those those who believe that moving from a broadcasting outfit which it in decline to an oufit which pays more for an indentical job and is expanding is as an offensive act one can be 'accused' of, rather than a smart career move many would approve of, or even applaud...




    There's a separate thread at HYS dealing specifically with BBC budget cuts, language sevices elimination and imminent lay-offs where you can debate it ad nauseam with yourselves assured that one way or another you'll have the last word.

    Whereas here it's clearly off-topic.

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  • 270. At 5:29pm on 31 Jan 2011, polite and kind wrote:

    "264. At 9:57pm on 30 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:
    #260 PaK

    "Oak you can walk around the UK at the moment without ID.
    Unlike the USA."

    Are you talking to me ??

    If not--sorry.
    If yes-- please explain ---Thanks."

    Yes I was talking to you. Explain the laws on carrying ID in the USA.
    Explain how homeless people are criminalised for not carrying ID.
    The other comments like getting treated by a Doc without loosing an arm and a leg you should be able to understand .

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  • 271. At 5:44pm on 31 Jan 2011, polite and kind wrote:

    "Obama & his government were elected by the (result of) Bush presidency."

    Absurd conspiracy theories aside;)( i did hear this theory from a tea party fan once. He's a cynic and not going to be fooled again after voting for GW twice). Or so he claims;)



    " USA should back teh side of peaceful protesters (we don't back violent ones), "

    Historically they do back violent protesters .

    The muhajidin were protesting the presence of Russia.

    The Isreali protested they had no nation ( stern gang times ,still considered terrorists back then)

    The ANC did use violence ( not SO surprising though) Thatcher didn't support the ANC because they used violence ( I know Thatcher started a war for an election result and was no blushing virgin to supporting violence) at a time when the USA didn't care about the violence.

    Thinking about the UK though reminds me of the years of support from many Americans( but none in the government )for the IRA.

    US supported , officially, an organisation called Sinn Fein when they were still considered by many to be no different to the IRA than the political wing of hamas is from Hamas.

    Iran , Now there's a case study in supporting violent protesters. The Shah was pretty violent.And he violently protested the rights of his people to disagree for years.




    . But I'm with you because like you I'm for Change.

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  • 272. At 10:03pm on 31 Jan 2011, Andy Post wrote:

    Ref. 240, LucyJ:

    "Um, Andy, I guess not all are staying home..."

    Yeah, I noticed. I'm just relaying what I see on the BBC and PBS.

    "What will happen if majority of Egyptians vote democractically to instate Islamic law, like Sharia Law?"

    Then they'll have Sharia Law.

    "Can't a group use democracy to further non-democratic means as long as its what majority wants?"

    Yep, a popular uprising often does not result in a democracy (Iran became a theocracy). Egypt is its own country. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

    "Cause' it seems like that is the direction tis headed..."

    I haven't picked that up. That could be true. I don't know.

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  • 273. At 11:58pm on 31 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    powermeerkat, (#269. At 12:43pm on 31 Jan 2011)
    ”For those those who believe that moving from a broadcasting outfit which it in decline to an oufit which pays more for an indentical job and is expanding is as an offensive act one can be 'accused' of, rather than a smart career move many would approve of, or even applaud...”
    Can’t quite admit that you are unable to substantiate your claim, eh? You know, the one you made back in post #127? That was when you posted ”how many BBC journalists have moved to Al-Jazeera just to make more money.”
    No biggie. You have plenty of company in these threads.

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  • 274. At 00:18am on 01 Feb 2011, LucyJ wrote:

    Andy wrote: Yep, a popular uprising often does not result in a democracy (Iran became a theocracy). Egypt is its own country. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
    ------------
    That is the question: who is Egypt?

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  • 275. At 08:29am on 01 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Chryses, please stop the BS.

    You simply want to have the last word. Which is fine with me since you obviously know about as much about the world of international broadcasting and its realities as about man-made global warming.

    In other words: THOU ART THE MAN.


    Over and out.

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  • 276. At 10:42am on 01 Feb 2011, Chryses wrote:

    powermeerkat, (#275. At 08:29am on 01 Feb 2011)
    ”Chryses, please stop the BS ...
    Now that’s an interesting expression to use, coming as it is from someone who is not only unable to substantiate his claims, but who cannot quit bring himself to admit it.

    ”... you obviously know about as much about the world of international broadcasting and its realities as about man-made global warming ...”
    I did not make any claims about “the world of international broadcasting,” you did, in post #127, if memory serves. You have been unable to substantiate those claims.

    As for knowledge about AGW, most of my posts on that topic have been identifying and correcting the errors of others. For example, the posts from some people in these threads have repeated shown that they are unable or unwilling to distinguish between weather and climate. When I notice those mistakes, I post corrections.

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  • 277. At 11:29am on 01 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    To post corrections one should possess a better knowledge or data proving that what someone else posted was wrong/untrue.



    So far you have not provided any evidence that broadcasters who left BBC for "greener pastures" have done so (in many cases) for different reasons than the one I've mention. Nor - have you specified what they have been.

    Perhaps you'll have better luck proving that the global warming on Mars is also man-made.


    Or explain which areas of Baltimore are more dangerous than Egypt.
    And specifically why.

    Thank you in advance, for inquiring minds are always willing to learn something new from the Enlightened Ones]

    Have a nice weather!



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  • 278. At 12:07pm on 01 Feb 2011, Chryses wrote:

    powermeerkat, (#277. At 11:29am on 01 Feb 2011)
    "To post corrections one should possess a better knowledge or data proving that what someone else posted was wrong/untrue ..."
    I do.

    "... So far you have not provided any evidence that broadcasters who left BBC for "greener pastures" have done so (in many cases) for different reasons than the one I've mention. Nor - have you specified what they have been ..."
    I don't need to. You do. I did not make the unsubstantiated claims. You did.

    "... Perhaps you'll have better luck proving that the global warming on Mars is also man-made ... "
    As I have not made that claim, I need not do so. Mars and Earth are different planets. I though you knew that.

    "... Or explain which areas of Baltimore are more dangerous than Egypt ..."
    If you take the time to read my post in re personal safety, you'll notice that I did not make that claim. Do try to be careful.

    "... And specifically why ..."
    Get the terms right, and I may well do so.

    "...Thank you in advance, for inquiring minds are always willing to learn something new from the Enlightened Ones] ..."
    Such behavior (learning) has been conspicuously lacking in some here of late.

    "... Have a nice weather!"
    The weather here has become chilly, in contrast to the climate, which as those who follow scientific developments know, is growing warmer. That's AGW for you.

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  • 279. At 4:00pm on 01 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Oldloadr wrote:
    90. At 1:12pm on 29 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:
    Or at least in jhaddists cars' rear view mirrors.
    ____________________________________________

    Objects in this mirror are closer than they appear!


    Oh, and yes, we are celebrating the meeting of jihadists with the Creator, who we don’t think is too impressed with their behavior…






    Oldloadr, a rhetorical question:

    Why should we deprive sexually repressed jihaddists of 72 virgins each?


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  • 280. At 4:33pm on 01 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #101 and subsequent...

    May I help with restoring posts from 2.20pm on Jan 29 till the current GMT on February 1st?

    [I have some expertise in retrieving allegedly non-retrievable data]

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  • 281. At 8:19pm on 01 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Chryses, I already accepted you won. Whatever it was you wanted to win.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "If you give all people equal chances the worst will prevail, for they constitute a majority"
    (Jose Ortega y Gasset)

    [how topical considering bullying of real scientists by phoney pseudo-scientists/crooks, subsidized by greedy "green industry"'s crooks.]



    BTW. Any close relative left BBC for al-Jazeera, for you being so touchy?

    Has my original comment hit too close to home for comfort by any chance?

    Are you an al-Jazeera's or BBC's aficionado?

    And how 'bout al-Arabiya?


    [know guys who moved there just to make more money, too. :-)]

    Inquiring minds of ignorant meerkats want to know.

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  • 282. At 00:13am on 02 Feb 2011, Chryses wrote:

    powermeerkat, (#281. At 8:19pm on 01 Feb 2011)
    "... "If you give all people equal chances the worst will prevail, for they constitute a majority"
    (Jose Ortega y Gasset)

    [how topical considering bullying of real scientists by phoney pseudo-scientists/crooks, subsidized by greedy "green industry"'s crooks.] ..."

    Fortunately, the overwhelming majority of scientists continue to do their science, and the results continue to strengthen the existing scientific consensus in favor of AGW.

    "... BTW. Any close relative left BBC for al-Jazeera, for you being so touchy? ..."
    No "touchiness" over here. I just asked the question.

    "... Has my original comment hit too close to home for comfort by any chance? ..."
    Anyone can go back through my posts to see what I wrote, and to infer motivation. Feel free to do so, should you be so inclined.

    "... . Are you an al-Jazeera's or BBC's aficionado? ..."
    As an American who grew up in Africa, and then worked in the ME for a good while, I prefer the Beeb to American news organizations, which commonly have a parochial frame of reference, IMO. Having sampled the "News" as presented by state run broadcasters in various ME countries, I find Al Jazeera a breath of fresh air in the Arab world.

    And how 'bout al-Arabiya?
    They help keep Al Jazeera honest/less polemic.

    "... [know guys who moved there just to make more money, too. :-)] ..."
    Anyone can claim anything.

    "... Inquiring minds of ignorant meerkats want to know."
    Seek and ye shall find says the Good Book. Now you know.

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  • 283. At 09:30am on 02 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    BTW. Any close relative left BBC for al-Jazeera, for you being so touchy? ..."
    Chryses in #282: No "touchiness" over here. I just asked the question.






    No, you most certainly have NOT.

    You stated expressis verbis that my comment that "many BBC journalists moved to al Jazeera just to make more money" constituted an ACCUSATION.

    Since you clearly view yourself as a man with a knowledge of logics
    (let alone of a supreme intellect) may I ask you, not for the first time, (and please, not ifs, ans and buts]:

    Since when choosing an outfit which pays better and offers better perks for a comparable job over one which pays less (and intends to cut your pension to boot) is a CRIME? Or even something shameful, rather than a smart career move many would approve of, and some would even applaud?

    Speak now (clearly and succintly) or forever hold your peace.


    P.S. Chryses: "Anyone can claim anything."


    Well, Sir, you just did.


    Have a nice weather!

    [Or climate, if you prefer. :-)]

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  • 284. At 10:47am on 02 Feb 2011, Chryses wrote:

    powermeerkat, (#283. At 09:30am on 02 Feb 2011)
    "BTW. Any close relative left BBC for al-Jazeera, for you being so touchy? ...
    Chryses in #282: 'No "touchiness" over here. I just asked the question.'
    No, you most certainly have NOT.
    You stated expressis verbis that my comment that "many BBC journalists moved to al Jazeera just to make more money" constituted an ACCUSATION ..."

    You are mistaken.
    In Post #127 you stated that several BBC journalists left the BBC for Al Jazeera just for the money. You remember, "... how many BBC journalists have moved to Al-Jazeera just to make more money ..." Any reasonable reading of that statement identifies that you assert their motivation was not for advancement in their career, not for better working conditions, not for job security, nor for any other reason. You claimed that the reason left the BBC for Al Jazeera just for the money. You made the accusation. I asked if you could substantiate your claim.
    You have failed to do so.

    "... Since you clearly view yourself as a man with a knowledge of logics
    (let alone of a supreme intellect) may I ask you, not for the first time, (and please, not ifs, ans and buts]:
    Since when choosing an outfit which pays better and offers better perks for a comparable job over one which pays less (and intends to cut your pension to boot) is a CRIME? Or even something shameful, rather than a smart career move many would approve of, and some would even applaud? ..."

    I did not suggest that. Further, you did not claim that these people left for better working conditions now, or in the future. In post #127 you stated that several BBC journalists left the BBC for Al Jazeera just for the money. You remember, "... how many BBC journalists have moved to Al-Jazeera just to make more money ..." You claimed that they left the BBC for Al Jazeera just for the money. It is unwise to suggest that you said otherwise, as you have attempted to do in your post above, as all I need do is to refer everyone back to your post #127 to read what you actually posted.

    "... Speak now (clearly and succintly) or forever hold your peace ..."
    I trust that you are satisfied with my response .

    "... P.S. Chryses: Anyone can claim anything.'
    Well, Sir, you just did ..."

    You are mistaken. You made the claim in post #127 that several BBC journalists left the BBC for Al Jazeera just for the money. I asked if you could substantiate your claim. You have, to date, failed to do so.

    "... Have a nice weather!
    [Or climate, if you prefer. :-)]"

    The weather here remains chilly, in contrast to the climate, which as those who follow scientific developments know, is growing warmer. That's AGW for you.

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  • 285. At 12:07pm on 02 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    "You made the accusation. I asked if you could substantiate your claim.
    You have failed to do so."





    Please, Chryses, define "accusation".


    Is stating that "many BBC journalists have moved to Al-Jazeera just to make more money" an accusation? Rather than merely an observation ?

    And do you have any info/data proving that what I've written is false?

    Besides, since when changing jobs to make more money somewhere else is something someone can or should be 'accused' of?

    I've asked you several times to explain it to me.

    So far - no answer. [I'm starting to wonder why]

    So, yes, I fail to understand your logic. If it's any logic at all.

    And at this point, considering your clear obsession with that minor off-topic subject - I am starting to believe that reasons my original statement has obviously mightily upset you might have nothing to do with logics.


    And more with touchiness.

    [not that I'm implying that your long time African/Mid Eastern experience has in any way influenced your biased position; not at all.]

    Happy weather, and try to protect yourself from the heat in your area.

    For I wish you well.

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  • 286. At 1:40pm on 02 Feb 2011, McJakome wrote:

    263. At 9:57pm on 30 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote RE 257:
    "I am fully engaged in spreading my fevered leftist propoganda and making a sculpture and being a houseperson (along with my wife)...... and don`t have the brains to digest new information as I used to long ago when I soaked up Max Gluckman`s lectures and tried to understand Soros` pal Popper`s opaque ramblings..."

    I would be hypocritical if I driticized you for doing what, in one sense, I have done. I used to listen to both CNN and FOX, on the theory that by listening to both right and left, one could triangulate on the truth somewhere in between. FOX spews such blatant Goebbelsian propaganda that I gave up on it, I gave up on CNN shortly thereafter, as it occurred to me that listening to two liers would not point to the truth.

    You point out conspiracies, and I have my own favorite conspiracies [which involve those who control the money and the oil, but not the Jews, Masons and Illuminati that you seem to be obsessed with].

    So I have to admit there is wheat amid your chaff, I merely suggested a bit more winnowing. I have not reached the point where I am so satisfied that my opinion is absolutely correct and would not be improved by reading and listening to reliable contrary opinions. I read your posts because, unlike LucyJ, you actually can offer something like coherence.

    I am glad that you did not take offense, as none was intended. I do wish you would read those books, however. At least try it when you are sleepless and pacing.

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  • 287. At 2:11pm on 02 Feb 2011, McJakome wrote:

    270. At 5:29pm on 31 Jan 2011, polite and kind wrote:
    “...Yes I was talking to you. Explain the laws on carrying ID in the USA.
    Explain how homeless people are criminalised for not carrying ID.
    The other comments like getting treated by a Doc without loosing an arm and a leg you should be able to understand.”

    These questions show an enormous number of preconceived notions about the US. I will, once again, try to answer them, but you will have to remove the erroneous preconceptions from your own minds.

    1. The US is a federal system, there are NO national laws on treatment of the poor and homeless like those you seem to be describing.*

    2. There is NO national ID [as yet]. There are some state IDs like drivers licences, hunting licences, etc. but I know of no law requiring a citizen to carry one. Visa holders may be required to report their presence, however.

    3. The police can not [in any of the states I have lived in] simply ask for an ID [as they can in most “democratic” as well as less than democratic states in Europe and elsewhere. Unlike Germany, for example, Americans need not notify the police if they change residence.]

    4. Not only have homelessness and poverty not been “criminalized,” but possession of small amounts of Marijuana have been decriminalized [but not legalized] in some areas. There are, however, federal laws about drugs, so if the local police don’t go after you the feds might.

    What does exist [as far as I know, but I can not tell you about all 50 states and some other jurisdictions] is as follows.

    1. *There are federal laws and the US Constitution protecting freedom of speech and other rights that states can not infringe. And there are civil rights laws and regulations intended to protect minorities, the handicapped, etc.

    2. The police can ask for ID if there is a reasonable suspicion of criminal conduct, which has to be shown in court.

    3. Many jurisdictions have laws against littering, loitering, creating a public nuisance, etc. They have been misapplied in the past, but I am aware of no systematic abuses [where I live at any rate] at present.

    4. When temperatures are below freezing and the weather is as bad as it is now, shelters are opened for the poor and homeless [in addition to the private, usually religious shelters]. I have heard that when some of the homeless refuse to go to shelters the police will arrest them so that they are in a warm place with some food, rather than letting them die on the street.

    5. I agree that the health care “system” in the US is a scam run by and for the profit of the insurance, drug and private hospital companies. However, it is illegal for hospitals to turn anyone away from emergency treatment. Abuses have occurred and have been prosecuted. Even illegal immigrants are treated without question, which causes a number of problems and becomes involved in political issues.

    It is the middle class that suffers most from this, because medical treatment can eat up all income and savings until someone qualifies for free care [which is not complete care].

    I hope this answers some of your questions, if only for a handful of the 50 states.

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