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Febrile politics of Giffords shooting

Mark Mardell | 21:00 UK time, Saturday, 8 January 2011

We do not, as I write, know what lies behind the shooting of a Democratic congresswoman and others in Arizona at a political meeting.

If the YouTube video said to be from the man in custody for the shooting of Gabby Giffords - named by local media as Jared Loughner - really is by him, he seems very disturbed.

Over soft lounge music, with the heading "My final thoughts", text appears mimicking in style formal logic, but in fact making incoherent rambling statements about sleepwalking, numerology and grammar. He writes about the US Constitution, about a currency not backed by gold, and that he can't trust the government and its treasonous laws. But the impression is of unbalanced incoherence rather than political grievance.

While we don't know if the motive behind the shooting was political, it is very clear that it was immediately politicised, at least on the internet. Twitter was immediately full of accusations that the right had created a climate of hatred where this could happen. The right responded in fury. Some pointed out this wasn't based on evidence. One claimed an illegal immigrant was responsible, another that it was done by the left to harm the right.

Much of the criticism was aimed at Sarah Palin.

Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords had been one of 20 names on a "hit list" issued by Palin, complete with graphics of a rifle-like telescopic sight.

Ms Palin meant, of course, that Ms Giffords was to be targeted by voters in the mid-term elections. The congresswoman herself had warned of the danger of the site, after her office was vandalised in March.

She said: "We're on Sarah Palin's 'targeted' list, but the thing is that the way she has it depicted, we're in the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they've got to realise that there are consequences to that action."

Ms Palin hasn't directly commented on whether she thinks there were consequences to her actions but she did issue a statement saying: "My sincere condolences are offered to the family of Rep Gabrielle Giffords and the other victims of today's tragic shooting in Arizona.

"On behalf of Todd and my family, we all pray for the victims and their families, and for peace and justice."

After the Oklahoma massacre, Bill Clinton spoke out, linking the attack by extremists to the anti-government rhetoric in Washington. I am uncertain whether it changed the nature of the debate but it was certainly judged something of a turning point for the president.

It is just too soon to say if this shooting will have any lasting impact, although there will no doubt be new calls for a more moderate, less emotional discourse.

But there is an irony.

The rhetoric and debate that instantly sprang up around this crime show the volatile, febrile nature of American politics and those passions are unlikely to disappear overnight.

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  • 1. At 9:20pm on 08 Jan 2011, McJakome wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 2. At 9:25pm on 08 Jan 2011, diverticulosis wrote:

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  • 3. At 9:40pm on 08 Jan 2011, Adiemus wrote:

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  • 4. At 9:47pm on 08 Jan 2011, rangerdon wrote:

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  • 5. At 9:58pm on 08 Jan 2011, MarkofSOSH wrote:

    You don't think the right wing (including Sarah Palin) wouldn't be all over this like a rash if it was the other way round - if a Republican Congressman had been shot after a liberal Democrat put up a poster with cross-hairs on it against the Congressman's name?

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  • 6. At 9:58pm on 08 Jan 2011, johntherock wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 7. At 9:58pm on 08 Jan 2011, hdsport82 wrote:

    Whatever the motivation for this attack, any expression of condolence/sympathy from Sarah Palin can not be taken as genuine. If there was nothing wrong with the crosshair map or the Don't Retreat, RELOAD tweet why have they been taken down?

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  • 8. At 9:59pm on 08 Jan 2011, KingLeeRoySandersJr wrote:

    US congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in Arizona

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  • 9. At 10:00pm on 08 Jan 2011, mgaved wrote:

    This is the Sarah Palin website graphic you refer to with Ms Gifford in Palin's gunsights: http://www.alan.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/sarahpac_0.jpg

    Apparently this has been taken off Palin's website since.

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  • 10. At 10:00pm on 08 Jan 2011, wolfvorkian wrote:

    Mr. Mardell said:
    This shooting may or may not have anything at all to do with politics. But it has become part of the political story already.

    You're an apologist for this reactionary movement in America... called the Tea Party....do you suspect a connection between them and this slaughter?

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  • 11. At 10:00pm on 08 Jan 2011, KingLeeRoySandersJr wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 12. At 10:05pm on 08 Jan 2011, Portugal OUT of the EU wrote:

    We don't even know the identity of the criminal and his motives so why are some leftists already up in arms blaming Sarah Palin and other conservatives for this horrific crime? Whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"? The only person responsible for this crime is the GUNMAN. Assuming he does not have any mental illnesses, he could have chosen not to go ahead and use his gun to murder innocents.

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  • 13. At 10:08pm on 08 Jan 2011, A White wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 14. At 10:13pm on 08 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    The alleged gunman, Jared Lee Loughner, does appear to be insane. This does not for a moment acquit Palin of responsibility: paranoid schizophrenics frequently take things they see on TV etc. to be "messages" to them. Loughner also shares the anti-government paranoia of the Tea Party, if not their more specific politics.

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  • 15. At 10:19pm on 08 Jan 2011, BienvenueEnLouisiana wrote:

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  • 16. At 10:21pm on 08 Jan 2011, chgsg wrote:

    The only politics in this event were the contorted thoughts in the shooters own mind.

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  • 17. At 10:22pm on 08 Jan 2011, wj66 wrote:

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  • 18. At 10:24pm on 08 Jan 2011, ozpomfromhell wrote:

    A terrorist attack in the heart of America.
    If you don't think so, then you'd better start thinking about what you mean by terrorism.

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  • 19. At 10:26pm on 08 Jan 2011, ozpomfromhell wrote:

    An Imam issues an proclamation and nutjobs blow themselves up.
    Palin and the far right declare war on moderate politics and a nutjob shoots a Congresswoman and kills 5 others.
    What is the essential difference?

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  • 20. At 10:28pm on 08 Jan 2011, Richie Bisset wrote:

    I'd be prepared to bet my house that if the tragic, tragic events could be, however loosely and infeasibly, connected to something like a Marilyn Manson song Palin and her ilk would be jostling to be at the front of the queue with their condemnation and accusation.

    The fact is she used a ill thought out and irresponsible poster which appeared to incite and condone violence. Despite criticism of it back in MArch she refused to pull it. There's no denying that it could be interpreted in the wrong way by someone with mental illness and violent tendencies.

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  • 21. At 10:28pm on 08 Jan 2011, tuulen wrote:


    Mark Mardell worte:
    "This shooting may or may not have anything at all to do with politics. But it has become part of the political story already."

    Oh, yes!

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  • 22. At 10:29pm on 08 Jan 2011, Islenskur wrote:

    Would of been nice in the spirit of Journalism .. to mention that the Democratic Leadership Committee also had a map with Targets / Bullseyes on it > it was on their offical website ... and given Sarah Palin is a private citizen and the this was the Democratic Leadership Committe > offically linked to democratic party ... Well you get the point.

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  • 23. At 10:30pm on 08 Jan 2011, edtho wrote:

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  • 24. At 10:32pm on 08 Jan 2011, MagicKirin wrote:

    We do not know what happened, or what this person's motivation was. Economic, political or another reason entirely.

    But shame on Donna Brazille for using the shooting for politics. she has always been a rephrehnsible human being.

    The Democratic party should shun her!

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  • 25. At 10:32pm on 08 Jan 2011, John Fig wrote:

    Mark, somehow many people here seem to think that their problems and concerns are uniquely important or pressing. Of course, while they may be serious is some cases, in general they are not. I'm sure we can name people and circumstances all over the world that are far more so. But that impression, fueled by careless and irresponsible political rhetoric in government and the media, feeds their sense of entitlement, oppression or overstated outrage. This is a large country with all sorts of people, some--yes--to one degree or other unhinged. For that reason alone, as well as the fact that our culture of personal freedom dictates a relaxed attitude toward firearms ownership, rather than ginning up that rhetoric for political and--worse--financial gain, public figures in the media and government ought to intentionally tone down their remarks and hew to a far more sober form of discourse. Of course, just saying that brings out an element that claims any such advice is an attempt to tread on another's freedom. But freedom without a concomitant sense of responsibility is license, not freedom. The latter--which they mistakenly call freedom-- is what some people are really advocating here. And it sometimes produces the kind of thing that happened today in Arizona. In my view, it's a price not worth paying. Self-control is also a form of freedom.

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  • 26. At 10:33pm on 08 Jan 2011, marieinaustin wrote:

    When I started commenting a few months ago, I was talking to a friend about something snipey that I posted, and he kindly told me it wasn’t that bad, but he reminded me that thousands of people may be reading whatever we post.

    Lately, I’ve thought about how my sarcastic remarks on this forum about ‘The Government’ (and taxes, etc.) are very possibly being read by some total nut-cases out there.

    Although we’re only responsible for our own actions, we influence each other greatly, and it makes me want to be more careful.

    I hadn’t heard about the target images that Palin posted until posters mentioned it here. Maybe politicians these days need their own ethics compliance specialists. It couldn’t hurt.

    I’ve also been thinking about a conversation that started on investments and went to other stuff that four of us (total strangers) had on a flight last summer. It got human, and I said this fluffy thing about how we should be extra kind to each other these days. The young man looked at me and said, “But shouldn’t we always be kind?” So sweet. Right he was!

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  • 27. At 10:38pm on 08 Jan 2011, petewass wrote:

    It is typical of the left, yet no less obscene for it, that they try to extract political capital from such a terrible event. The only person to blame for this is the one who pulled the trigger.

    I just pray that all of those who are injured recover and live to see the killer receive his injection.

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  • 28. At 10:39pm on 08 Jan 2011, PZipu wrote:

    First, we did not kick GW out after eight years, out constitution did that for us, thankfully. Sadly, had there been no term limits, I bet he'd still be in office, but that's my pessimism showing through. And Obama was never going to get a fair shake. The man, as great as he may or may not be, could never have lived up to the expectations placed upon him. When he was elected, I was studying in Canada and heard a CBC interview with a woman in an African village who said, "My life will be better with Obama as president." ...really, who could live up to those expectations? Two years in, I don't think we have enough evidence to say how Obama has done, but I doubt we'll get another term because he could never live up to the hype.

    As far as the Palin "gun sights" sign, be serious. There is no way she intended for this to happen. No prominent Republican or Tea Party member would want this. This is a life, and a life cannot be replaced. That said, her advertisement was stupid. Plain and simple. Her use of firearm phraseology and symbolism shows a lack of fore sight, understanding, and intelligence. A previous poster tried to draw a link between the Tea Party movement and this violent outburst, as if the movement set the stage for it. I will admit that the Tea Partiers tend to make it a "us vs. them" situation, but this does not necessitate violence. To overcome an obstacle, any group must strengthen themselves, and the me vs. them attitude does this. Obama's "Yes we can," was a direct statement that those in office (Bush, Republicans) could not. The Tea Party sets up contradiction, opposition, people who don't know how to address an other without violence shoot them with guns. The Tea Party, and Palin especially, should never have used the fire arm analogy, but they aren't responsible for some kid in Arizona going farther than anyone would ever expect.

    In the end, as a citizen of the United States, I'm just shocked this happened in my country. She was trying to spend time with the people she represented. I don't know what type of woman she was, but I can tell you my elected officials don't often stand at the local grocery and ask, "what concerns you guys?" That she was gunned down while reaching out, while doing her job, and being a good elected official... that's tragic. That people died is even worse.

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  • 29. At 10:42pm on 08 Jan 2011, Gorkem wrote:

    We in Turkey had "hit lists" given by the v-akit newspaper.They have killed Ahmet Taner Kışlalı. Some unwise people think that it would not do anything, apparently they are wrong. I am so upset that a 40 year old politician who promised a great future, who won elections against the Tea Party is dead. Unfortunately world has more "unwise" people now than ever, a bad future is coming.

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  • 30. At 10:43pm on 08 Jan 2011, Paul_Texas wrote:

    The shooting of Congresswoman Giffords was a tragedy and should not have occured.

    It is also a tragedy that so many people are using this event as an excuse to blame Republicans, in general, and Sarah Palin, in particular, for this shooting.

    A democratic society depends on civilized behavior from its elected representatives and from its citizens. Unfortunately, far too many Americans of all parties seem to have forgotten this.

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  • 31. At 10:44pm on 08 Jan 2011, wolfvorkian wrote:

    BienvenueEnLouisiana wrote:

    "Palin puts up a graphic with gunsight hairs on Democrats, one of them gets killed and she denies all responsibility. Right, it was just coincidence."

    These and other left-wing accusations are sickening and disgraceful.
    I will not be drawn into a conversation with such despicable lowlifes.


    Facts or reality bother you, right?

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  • 32. At 10:46pm on 08 Jan 2011, bostonian32 wrote:

    19. At 10:26pm on 08 Jan 2011, ozpomfromhell wrote:

    An Imam issues an proclamation and nutjobs blow themselves up.
    Palin and the far right declare war on moderate politics and a nutjob shoots a Congresswoman and kills 5 others.
    What is the essential difference?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Really? You telling us that you can't tell the difference between

    A - an imam calling for the DEATH of very specific INDIVIDUALS (like Salman Rushdie or Ayaan Hirsi Ali) in no uncertain terms

    B - A politician calling for opposition to specific government policies?

    Are you for real? You may or may not agree with Sarah Palin. And for the record, plenty of left wing socialists call for war on moderate politics every bit as much, just look at how angry the far left liberals are with Obama "not cutting defence spend enough" or "not supporting a public option, essentially a government takeover of healthcare".

    But if you can't tell the difference between calling for a war on certain POLICIES (right or left wing) versus calling for the death of certain HUMANS, you cannot be reasoned with. It is the difference between opposing what someone thinks (a perfectly reasonable position) versus opposing their very human existence (a murderous proposition).

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  • 33. At 10:47pm on 08 Jan 2011, ralokan wrote:

    America, please calm down. Stop acting like freaked out teenagers and join the adult world. Then the Sarah Palins will go back to their big-haired airhead beauty contests and let the grown-ups run the place. And people will stop going off half-cocked about why this nutcase did what he did when nobody yet knows the answer to that. It's called a cool head, something Americans have not yet acquired, because they're still in the acne phase of democracy.
    And please, Mark Madell, spare us the linguistic showing off. Everyone will read this kind of story and most will need a dictionary for febrile. Poisoned, feverish, overheated...there are many easy and adequate alternatives. But some people like to say paradigm when model will do just fine.

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  • 34. At 10:49pm on 08 Jan 2011, Ruethan wrote:

    A Republican judge appointed by President Bush was also shot, so don't try to make this a right wing problem. As for leftist graphics targeting conservatives, thousands exist, with Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, as major targets. Don't try to connect dots that are not there.

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  • 35. At 10:53pm on 08 Jan 2011, mike wrote:

    Anger should be contained, blame should not be apportioned. The politics should be put aside and sympathy for the victims should be expressed.

    This is not the time or place for this debate! As a former resident of Tucson this is a terrible tragedy. Sympathy for all those affected!

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  • 36. At 10:55pm on 08 Jan 2011, SONICBOOMER wrote:

    A shocking and tragic event, clearly the work of a deranged person - as all these events are whether an elected representative is a victim or not.
    It's far too soon and probably unwise to apportion blame at anyone other than the killer, the debate about whether he was, however unintentionally incited, might well remain unknown if the perp is that deranged.

    It will create debate about the pitfalls and consequences of a certain kind of politics that's been apparent these last two years, where the paranoid, irrational, proudly ignorant are feted by some, it should however also be about whether it goes beyond politics, into culture, something else that has been an issue in the US in particular but for a longer time.
    Can also movies, TV, books also, in the deranged, however unintentionally, incite, to kill, assault, rape?

    It's in my view impossible to say, on the culture side, if you do believe that films, TV and books can do this, so should be censored beyond what the law (including the First Amendment) say, the first two books you'd have to ban would be the Bible and Koran.

    There was a lot of anti government rhetoric around in the early 1990's when Clinton was in, did the 'shock jocks', some politicians etc also inadvertently give one Timothy McVeigh that last mental push to do what he did?


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  • 37. At 10:56pm on 08 Jan 2011, AtholeBrose wrote:

    Could someone please explain the laws of Arizona in relation to the fitness of a person in being able to possess and use a firearm? Even if the law was a as crazy as being able to walk into a store and buy a gun and self-declare one's fitness to be a gun-owner, surely the store owner might spot something just a bit flawed in someone's character. Engaging someone in general conversation might just show those cracks. Is there a Police Licensing system that checks the background of any applicant to possess a firearm? Would the fact the gunman was a political extremist be a good reason for the authorities to refuse ownership? It would seem logical that if one has extreme views but no gun or access to one, then the extremist is reduced to shouting abuse and throwing rotten vegetables.

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  • 38. At 10:58pm on 08 Jan 2011, Virginia Moffatt wrote:

    The individual responsible for this crime is the person who shot Gabrielle Giffords. However, the context in which he committed the crime is important.

    Firstly, he lives in a country with such lax gun laws, it is easy to get armed and commit murder. Imagine if he'd only had access to a knife. He could have done some harm, but not on this scale.

    Secondly, he lives in a country whose politics have become charged, aggressive and poisonous. Sarah Palin's website, with its gunsights targetting Gabrielle Gifford certainly haven't helped.Nor has her refusal to take the website down until tonight (after the shooting).

    I hope politicians on all sides will take a moment and stop and think about the laws they could pass to limit gun control & the way they behave in the political arena.

    And I hope Ms Gifford makes a speedy recovery. So sorry for those who have already died.

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  • 39. At 10:58pm on 08 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    edtho@23

    A couple of quotes from his website:

    “The majority of the citizens in the United States of America have never read the United States of Americas’s Constitution. You don’t have to accept the federalists’ laws,”

    “read the United States of America’s Constitution to apprehend all of the current treasonous laws.”

    These are not "anarchist" sentiments. Anarchists do not respect constitutions.

    The website also includes complaints about currency not backed by gold or silver and about government "mind control", and a video of the American flag being burned, which he'd apparently "favorited".

    Completely nuts, but in a characteristically American-paranoid style which is also common in the "Tea Party".

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  • 40. At 10:58pm on 08 Jan 2011, masp wrote:

    I am writing from Tucson and since many of us knew and loved Gabby this is a very painful day. First credit Tucson with producing such a wonderful public servant as Gabby Giffords. That said the politics in this state has become wildly paranoid and vengeful in recent times. While the young man who committed this act is surely a very unhinged person, one cannot deny that the atmosphere in Az promoted by Palin, Fox news et al in recent months have very dire consequences on the fragile minds of insane individuals. I fully expect that this will all be chalked up to being one crazy guy but that will sadly look past the vile speech and pronouncements that have been coming out all over the media that I am sure contributed to his explosive act.

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  • 41. At 11:10pm on 08 Jan 2011, wolfvorkian wrote:

    Ruethan wrote:

    A Republican judge appointed by President Bush was also shot, so don't try to make this a right wing problem.

    The right-wing fruitcakes didn't like him because he allowed a lawsuit filed by Mexicans to go ahead against a white rancher...so would you like to edit your post?

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  • 42. At 11:10pm on 08 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    AtholeBrose@37,

    Ironically, alongside quite a few liberal views, Giffords is an advocate of "concealed carry" rights, although opposed to the right to own semi-automatics.

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  • 43. At 11:10pm on 08 Jan 2011, Andy Post wrote:

    Mark:

    "This shooting may or may not have anything at all to do with politics. But it has become part of the political story already."

    Maybe.

    I don't think it's significant, though.

    I'm reminded of Tony Blair's assertion on the Daily Show that Americans would never have thought that we might be victims of home grown terrorism. Stewart simply said no (and got a chuckle from the audience).

    Americans are well aware that we have a significant number of whack jobs in our country, and there's really nothing we can do to eliminate them from our society. With a population north of 300 million, even if the rate of pathology in the society were reduced to one one-thousandth of one percent, there would still be 3000 homicidal maniacs in the country... and it only takes one.

    Political violence is anathema to our ideology and while we can't eliminate it, it has virtually no support amongst the People.

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  • 44. At 11:10pm on 08 Jan 2011, Adrian B wrote:

    I'm apparently another lefty trying to blame everything on the Tea Party. Perhaps I made up this from an event before the November election - Gifford's Tea Party opponent apparently making a (not very) veiled threat:

    http://yfrog.com/h5p7wp

    And now they offer their condolences - what a bunch of hypocrites!

    And as for 15., if you didn't want to be drawn into a conversation why are you posting here?

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  • 45. At 11:11pm on 08 Jan 2011, Andrew Walker wrote:

    Deepest sympathy to those wounded by this mindlesss shooting and my condolences to those bereaved.

    Now that this has happened to a member of the House of Representatives, will this be the wake up call for the USA to update its gun laws? Your laws about the right "to bear arms" needs updating and the National Rifle Association needs to wake up and smell the coffee. It is time to take brave and courageous decisions.

    Or will this be put down as just "another assassination attempt".

    Only time will tell.

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  • 46. At 11:14pm on 08 Jan 2011, rob murray wrote:

    This is a tragedy.
    However, we can expect to see similar incidents.
    I have not seen any mention as yet of the widespread availability of guns in the USA.
    This will not change.
    It did not change after the deaths of President Kennedy, Martin Luther King or Robert Kennedy.
    Recently the Supreme Court had a chance to clamp down on certain guns, but instead OKd them.
    Of course the Constitution OKd them, but that was over 200 years ago !!
    I imagine some gun-lovers are already mobilizing to prevent attacks on gun usage.
    I can already hear the much repeated sentence, It is never the fault of the guns, always their users....
    It is all very sad...

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  • 47. At 11:17pm on 08 Jan 2011, chronophobe wrote:

    Mark -- 'febrile' and 'volatile?'

    You are far too diplomatic. I'd use 'violently enraged' and 'toxic.'

    Mix with a culture where guns are as common as light bulbs, and easier to buy than whiskey, and it is a testament to the underlying good sense of a vast majority of the population that things aren't far worse than they already are.

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  • 48. At 11:19pm on 08 Jan 2011, Portugal OUT of the EU wrote:

    "Firstly, he lives in a country with such lax gun laws, it is easy to get armed and commit murder. Imagine if he'd only had access to a knife. He could have done some harm, but not on this scale." - Virginia Moffatt

    In Switzerland, there are a few million semi-automatic rifles in the homes of Swiss citizens yet gun-related crime is very low in the country. This reinforces the view gun legislation is not to blame for shootings. Instead, the gunman or gunwoman is to blame for mis-using his or her gun.

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  • 49. At 11:20pm on 08 Jan 2011, MagicKirin wrote:

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  • 50. At 11:21pm on 08 Jan 2011, AtholeBrose wrote:

    It would appear that Arizona has very lax firearm laws. In July last year the law was abolished that required handgun owners to have a permit to carry a concealed weapon, locally referred to as a CCW Permit. The local Authority even took down signs in a Childrens park that banned the carrying of a concealed weapon in that area. Does anyone have knowledge if the change in law, aided the gunman by allowing to him to carry a concealed weapon?

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  • 51. At 11:24pm on 08 Jan 2011, bennfan30 wrote:

    i don't agree with the republican party at all but i'm sure the overwhelming majority of them would never ever advocate this terrible act.

    yes if it was done in the name of Marilyn Manson or whatever some of the more extreme right-wingers would be jumping all over it but to polarise every republican/right winger as some gun-toting xenophobic fascist is to start falling into the same area as the hate-spewing stirrers that dominate some of the talk shows and tv in america.

    i believe these people who encourage fear and paranoia (and extreme answers to these "problems") have a lot to answer for, but it should be through comprehensive, factual debate. if what they are saying is a load of nonsense and is dangerously inflammatory (and i'm sure in this measure parrallels will be drawn between radical internet material calling for terrorist attacks against the west, however fair or unfair that may be) then it can be exposed with logical argument and debate.

    as far as Palin's "hitlist" - i don't know her personally (thank goodness!) but i'm pretty sure she didn't mean to gun down the people on the list. the rifle sights and the language were maybe meant to tap into the psychology of a macho one-man stand against the government, there always seems to be some romantisised Rambo fantasy of one man, his principles and his guns... holed up in the wilderness, living on his wits, making his stand.. etc. permeating through a part of american culture. how many buy into that i don't know.

    my (long-winded) point is; don't polarise and stereotype the right-wingers as we complain they do to us. expose the idiots for who they are and what they really stand for. peacefully.

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  • 52. At 11:27pm on 08 Jan 2011, 1978 Shoot league ladders wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 53. At 11:30pm on 08 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    This takes me back to 7/7 when British people bombed 52 ither people and themselves to death....and I have a sense of anxiety about attempts to portray anyone who questions the practicality of mass immigration as inevitably right wing and somehow automatically responsible for any violence in society ....while those who appear easy about mass immigration are morally better and non-violent...and the explosion of frustration and anger is "not their fault".

    As a social democrat who worked for nearly thirty years as a social worker in England I feel it`s time we had a real cool-minded serious in-depth look at the effects of mass immigration on our societies....and I contend that unless we do that there is a growing likelihood that ordinary poor people who were born in our societies will give up hope that anyone is ever going to listen to their concerns...with the possible affect that we have serious unrest and violence.

    Immigration DOES seem like an injustice to many of our poor people.....and it`s time we stopped calling them racists and gave them a peaceable respectful democratic hearing over this very important issue.

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  • 54. At 11:33pm on 08 Jan 2011, Rob_Hampshire wrote:

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of Ms Palin's campaign may be, the gunman was not forced to commit murder by her or anyone else. He CHOSE to. The responsibility is his and his alone.

    If everyone have to consider how their comments could conceivably be used by some nutcase, no-one would dare to say anything.

    Sadly it seems that the truth is ignored because the opportunity for political point-scoring is just too good to miss...

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  • 55. At 11:44pm on 08 Jan 2011, Adrian B wrote:

    "Whatever the rights and wrongs of Ms Palin's campaign may be, the gunman was not forced to commit murder by her or anyone else. He CHOSE to. The responsibility is his and his alone."

    For goodness sake, nobody here is saying that Palin forced him to do it! She (and the rest of the Tea Party idiots) is responsible for creating a hostile climate where this kind of thing can happen. Add to it the gun-culture and this is what you get.

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  • 56. At 11:48pm on 08 Jan 2011, j2bprometheus wrote:

    JMM-

    You said " I have never seen a left-wing graphic or exhortation to violence and none has occurred. "

    What about the hanging of Geoge W Bush in effigy? Or Sarah Palin? Or the "Kill Bush" signs or signs saying "Bomb the White House, Kill Bush" at anti-war rallys during the Iraq War? Most of the pro-violence left wing signs and hanging in effigy occurred in California.

    What about the rap music video in which some folks assassinate George H W Bush ?

    How did you miss all these "left wing graphic or exhortations to violence"?

    jbprometheus

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  • 57. At 11:52pm on 08 Jan 2011, ezraspapis wrote:

    Right to the point #33! I, myself, never use a big word when a diminutive one will do!

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  • 58. At 00:00am on 09 Jan 2011, MagicKirin wrote:

    The latest news reports say the assailant was distrubed talking of mindcontrol, and a gold and silver back eeconomy.

    So this is not a time for Tea Party bashers to use this for politics

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  • 59. At 00:00am on 09 Jan 2011, Argent Pur wrote:

    Whatever the reason for this senseless act I am not surprised at all and I won't be surprised when it happens again. I have been following lots of blogs and websites concerning the financial crisis since 2008 and it is obvious from the comments sections in lots of blogs just how angry the American public is getting.

    I have seen plenty of comments mention they are stocking up on tinned food, guns and ammo for when the inevitable social breakdown starts and it is getting worse as their economy collapses even further. Bankers are the root cause but politicians are being blamed just as much for allowing the banks to get away with it.

    I do wonder if the reason austerity measures haven't been imposed in the US is because they are a nation of armed citizens. No doubt there will now be calls to ban guns but somehow I don't think most Americans will give up their guns so easily. We can see from todays events that banning guns would not be a bad thing, however I have seen plenty of american comment that only decent citizens would give up their guns and all the criminals would retain them, leaving decent people vulnerable. You only have to look at the horrific violence just over the border in Mexico to see why most US citizens would never give up their guns.

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  • 60. At 00:01am on 09 Jan 2011, Jay wrote:

    I do not know who shoot these people, But i know that such shooting will not stop or even decline unless US Govt implements strict gun control laws. And that is impossible so long gun manufacturers and organizations like NRA (national Rifles Association) have tremendous influence on our policy makers, mainly from Republican party.
    Personal security is a state subject and it HAVE To be carried out by state machinaries, not individuals.

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  • 61. At 00:04am on 09 Jan 2011, BLUES55 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 62. At 00:04am on 09 Jan 2011, Mikey64 wrote:

    The mere fact that someone like Sarah Palin is regarded as a potential president of the USA speaks volumes of this country that once - too long ago - stood for real democracy.
    Right wing arguments on democracy, freedom, gun control, equality etc. somehow always end up in the 18th century like modernization never happened. Really sad.
    Hat tip to ralokan # 33, just my words, a kid nation with no understanding of what a society is.

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  • 63. At 00:10am on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    "In Switzerland, there are a few million semi-automatic rifles in the homes of Swiss citizens yet gun-related crime is very low in the country. This reinforces the view gun legislation is not to blame for shootings. Instead, the gunman or gunwoman is to blame for mis-using his or her gun." - Portugal out of the EU

    No, it doesn't. You can't easily carry a concealed semi-automatic rifle, and gun-carrying permits are normally only issued to people working in security industries. Moreover, the USA's lax gun laws are part of a right-wing culture valorizing individual violence, and demonising govenment, which has no parallel in Switzerland.

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  • 64. At 00:15am on 09 Jan 2011, Captain_Hogwash wrote:

    Several prominent (US) public figures have recently expressed in the media (and therefore on the record) a desire for the extra-judicial killing of a certain individual (Julian Assange).

    It will be intresting to see how they will square-the-circle if and when their wishes come true

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  • 65. At 00:18am on 09 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    59..I broadly agree.. but if you cast your mind back to the St Louis floods it may be that ordinary folk are losing faith in their government to protect them.

    And it`s not so much protection from violence by people with guns...as protection from a society that puts everyone but then first and them last....including bankers and the immigrants who (whether we like it or not) do present a threat to ordinary poor American`s job prospects and wage rates and to their ability to raise their own family.

    Left wingers have always claimed to support the ordinary working people... but I`ve yet to see much evidence in Britain or America that they really do!

    There`s an old saying that charity worth a candle starts at home.....let`s concentrate on sorting out our OWN problems FIRST!

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  • 66. At 00:22am on 09 Jan 2011, peejkerton wrote:

    Whatever the beliefs and motives of this particular individual one would hope that this would help convince the Republicans and the Tea Party to tone down their violence-tinged rhetoric of revolution, anger and using such crass imagery as gun sights on Democrats.

    I can only hope it stops them fostering such an angry hate filled tensions and start to talk in reasonable terms about the issues that affect their country.

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  • 67. At 00:27am on 09 Jan 2011, Ian_the_chopper wrote:

    Post 48 the reason Switzerland has a low gun crime rate is that all the possessors of the guns have had military training.

    You might also want to know that before people join the militia and keep "the gun" at home they have both a psychological check and rigorous basic training. Those found unsuitable for military service have to do some other form of service.

    As such Swiss semi automatic weapons are in the hands of people who are both sane and properly trained in the use of the weapon and its dangers.

    Perhaps if in order to buy a gun in the US you had to submit to a minimum number of hours training, plus a full psychological examination there might be fewer incidents like this.

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  • 68. At 00:30am on 09 Jan 2011, PopolVuh wrote:

    If Mister Laughner is crazy, should he be able to own a gun? The NRA would say, 'Yes', because the 2nd Amendment guarantees him that right without reservation.

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  • 69. At 00:31am on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    "The latest news reports say the assailant was distrubed talking of mindcontrol, and a gold and silver back eeconomy.

    So this is not a time for Tea Party bashers to use this for politics" - Magic Kirin

    Exactly the kind of anti-government paranoia the Tea Party and its "libertarian" funders such as the Koch brothers have been peddling.

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  • 70. At 00:34am on 09 Jan 2011, Milanku wrote:

    at Ruethan #34


    Just two years ago, Judge Roll was targeted with death threats -- and given a security detail -- after ruling that a group of illegal immigrants could go forward with a multi-million dollar civil rights lawsuit against a state rancher, reports CBS News chief legal correspondent Jan Crawford.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/01/08/national/main7226269.shtml

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  • 71. At 00:35am on 09 Jan 2011, quietoaktree wrote:

    200 years ago a weapon was a sword or musket.

    At this rate of escalation, in the next 50 years we will be buying a second tank for the kids and in 100 years a nuclear missile to impress the neighbors.

    --- The Founding Fathers really left us with an open-ended self destruction !



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  • 72. At 00:35am on 09 Jan 2011, OutOfPatience wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 73. At 00:40am on 09 Jan 2011, WhitewaterOregon wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 74. At 00:54am on 09 Jan 2011, Maria Ashot wrote:

    This terrible tragedy (imagine especially for the parents of the child, as well as the poor woman with the bullet in her head) is quite clearly a huge, huge, huge story that will have repercussions we cannot even begin to predict just yet. It may set the tone for the upcoming 2012 election, and even shape its outcome.

    Only recently, right here in this blog, as well as other places, we have questioned whether the divide between militants on the right and left were actually strong enough to ignite outright hostilities.

    The answer has come on Saturday, January 8, 2011: much sooner than any of us expected.

    We should pray, lobby & work for an absolutely transparent & thorough investigation that glosses over nothing, leaves no stones unturned and lets us all know exactly where we all stand.

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  • 75. At 00:57am on 09 Jan 2011, McJakome wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 76. At 01:01am on 09 Jan 2011, Ray Simard wrote:

    Mr. Mardell is spot on. Loughner's expressions don't fit with a political vendetta from left or right and the widespread attempt to hijack this horrid event for political leverage is appalling.

    I posted the following moments ago on the website of the Washington Post in a space similar to this one:

    "I can't believe you people. A human being, a public servant (and one on the opposite side of my own views on most things, FTR), is gunned down and I read nearly nothing but partisan politics.

    "The roots of this evil lie not in the left, the right, talk radio, Capitol rhetoric, Dems, Repubs, Tea or any other party. They lie in those who put more value at a time like this on political attack/defend reflexes than on the value of human life and respect for it. And at this moment that means damn near everyone in this column.

    With few exceptions, you all ought to be ashamed of yourselves."

    No difference here.

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  • 77. At 01:07am on 09 Jan 2011, The Arshavin Codex wrote:

    22. At 10:29pm on 08 Jan 2011, Islenskur wrote:
    Would of been nice in the spirit of Journalism .. to mention that the Democratic Leadership Committee also had a map with Targets / Bullseyes on it > it was on their offical website ... and given Sarah Palin is a private citizen and the this was the Democratic Leadership Committe > offically linked to democratic party ... Well you get the point.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    There are some key differences between that and Sarah "Don't retreat... reload" Palin's map. The democrats map was of targeted election states with no individual names mentioned or targeted as in Palin's map. It was set up before the election and taken down after the election. Palin was requested to take down the site on numerous occasions, including by Gifford herself. Palin's map was accompanied by the words ""We've diagnosed the problem...Help us prescribe the solution" Below was a list of 18 democrats including Giffords. Tea party activist Sharon Angle has made several comments about the "2nd amendment solution". Seems the murdered took this to heart.

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  • 78. At 01:25am on 09 Jan 2011, McJakome wrote:

    Let me try again. I remember the assassination of JFK, I remember the horror of that. I remember the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan, and was horrified at that. I did not like him at all, but I was terribly upset by the attempt on his life. It did not matter that he was conservative or a Republican, he was a human being and the President of the US.

    I am not criticizing Palin, Coulter, Hannity, Limbaugh and Beck because they are conservative, nor because they are Republican, nor because I disagree with their political ideas; I am criticizing them because they spread notions [like Obama is a Communist] that they know are not true, and those notions are poisoning the political climate in the US. If someone short on wits and well supplied with firepower is motivated by such talk to do evil things, then they must be considered partially to blame.


    If there are similar hateful propagandists on the left, or if the Democratic Party does or encourages similar things, then they are also to blame. I reacted with shock and horror, and I accept that doing so may be considered disrespectful. However, now is the time to call for a stop to the vile propaganda wars, before something else happens. It is in the immediate aftermath of disaster and tragedy that most people see that something MUST be done about the situation.

    So my condolences to the victims and their families, my apologies to anyone who may have been offended by my hasty remarks. ANd my plea to everyone in politics and talk radio, "consider the unintended consequences of what you are doing."

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  • 79. At 01:27am on 09 Jan 2011, BarryHaley wrote:

    I fear that the right has sown the wind and are now reaping the whirlwind. They have stoked the fires of hate and are without a bucket of water. Welcome to the American "years of lead".

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  • 80. At 01:30am on 09 Jan 2011, BK wrote:

    As usual, the avalance of emotion gains momentum before any facts can even come to light; if there is anything "feverish" about U.S. politics it is the medias reporting, and willingness to print the emotional rubbish of those who were not present, and have nothing evidential to contribute. If the police search the suspect's computer, house, car and find a "Palin target" ad with Giffords face superimposed in the cross-hairs, I think that might be evidence of Palin's influence on today's tragedy...meanwhile what we have is "Lemming" behavior, that is, each political wag following the arse ahead in front, over the precipice of imagination.


    Mr. Mardell, your blog might have been more responsible had it been posted a week from now.

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  • 81. At 01:45am on 09 Jan 2011, Jackturk wrote:

    Whether or not this incident has any political overtones is yet to be determined but from the outside it seems that America is imploding due to fundamentalism and bigotry and unfortunately Arizona is at the heart of it.

    Ever since Obama became President, the right wing, lead by Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, Bill O'Reilly etc., have been determined to generate as much hatred against him as possible, for no other reason than they perceived that he wanted to turn against militarism and corporatism, which to the right wing, are Gods, along side their religious deities. In an effort to appease them, Obama has broken his pre-election promises and thereby spurned the support of the ordinary people who voted for him. Consequently he is now derided by many on all sides.

    Not withstanding this case, when prominent politicians and religious leaders in the USA can call for the execution or assassination of others and not be sanctioned and when decent citizens can be jailed for protesting against the 'School of the Assassins' at Fort Benning, Georgia, it is an indication of just how far U.S. society has degenerated.






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  • 82. At 01:47am on 09 Jan 2011, Kewee wrote:

    Strange how America preaches it's wonderful democracy to the rest of the world. It's probably the most intolerant society on the planet. Many Americans would do well to look up the meaning of the word liberal. That might be a reasonable starting point to heal intolerance.

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  • 83. At 01:49am on 09 Jan 2011, WhitewaterOregon wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 84. At 01:52am on 09 Jan 2011, aladinsaneuk wrote:

    still amazes me that people think that it is elected politicians that rule in the USA

    it is the large corporations that call the shots - they buy the politicians when they need them

    This shooting is awful - but am willing to bet that the political mileage that comes from it is worse

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  • 85. At 01:52am on 09 Jan 2011, Shane Matthews wrote:

    For more incitement, I offer up this article dating back to June 2010.

    http://www.blogforarizona.com/blog/2010/06/jesse-kelly-event-is-this-wording-intentional.html

    It's time for those rabble rousers on both sides, but especially on the right, to realise there are conequences for what they say.

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  • 86. At 01:54am on 09 Jan 2011, GR04 wrote:

    I hope that this incident makes people such as Sarah Palin or the bellicose voices in the Tea Party think twice before using the kind of rhetoric that they have been using since Obama's election in 2008. Hopefully, this incident will throw into stark relief for them how dire and grave the consequences can be when such rhetoric goes unchecked. While the investigation still must proceed into why this whacko did what he did, it is not too early to counsel everyone to be more responsible with their words.

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  • 87. At 02:01am on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    "We should pray" - Maria Ashot

    No, that would be a complete waste of time, as it always is.

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  • 88. At 02:03am on 09 Jan 2011, Tom Bombadil wrote:

    Rightly or wrongly Sarah Palin's stupid and irresponsible website has generated a lot of anger. She will now find it impossible to go anywhere without a small army of minders. This could end any political ambitions that she might still hold.

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  • 89. At 02:06am on 09 Jan 2011, jorg25 wrote:

    There's an ongoing, historical, surreptitious political war being waged by political forces in the United States that is now raging out of control. The Arizona carnage appears to be yet another chapter in this very sad story.

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  • 90. At 02:07am on 09 Jan 2011, McJakome wrote:

    60. At 00:01am on 09 Jan 2011, Jay wrote:
    "I do not know who shoot these people, But i know that such shooting will not stop or even decline unless US Govt implements strict gun control laws."

    The US government can not do that. Even the states and cities have less ability to do so now that the Supreme Court has accepted the NRA interpretation of the constitution and amendments thereto.

    In the US the primary power was intended to be in the hands of the states and the citizens thereof. The Constitution makes that quite clear. Until the 20th Century the Federal government was relatively small, most laws were made in the states, and even the national army was small [the Civil War was fought largely by state units like the 54th Massachusetts Infantry Regiment-that's right one state with more than 54 regiments].

    I am usually quite happy that we do not have a centralized state with overly powerful central government. I was particulary unhappy about the weakening of this when George W. Bush was trampling on the Constitution, particularly the rights of states to determine the nature and punishment for murder, the possibility of death with dignity, family planning, etc.

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  • 91. At 02:10am on 09 Jan 2011, Lincoln Hawk-s wrote:

    Is this Sharron Angle's "2nd ammendment remedies" in action?

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  • 92. At 02:15am on 09 Jan 2011, BLUES55 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 93. At 02:23am on 09 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    Ian_the_chopper, (#67. At 00:27am on 09 Jan 2011)

    ”... Perhaps if in order to buy a gun in the US you had to submit to a minimum number of hours training, plus a full psychological examination there might be fewer incidents like this.”
    There would probably be far fewer guns sold!

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  • 94. At 02:28am on 09 Jan 2011, brazilwatcher wrote:

    Yet another pointless crime committed by a disturbed young nutter who under the crazy laws of the USA is allowed to have virtual free access to a firearm. What a messed up country, glad I don't have to live there.

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  • 95. At 02:46am on 09 Jan 2011, BLUES55 wrote:

    It is amazing that transferring public money to corporations to build bombs etc. to kill is not considered socialism, yet to transfer money to health organizations to heal a very sick country is.

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  • 96. At 02:46am on 09 Jan 2011, tomwillbetom1 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 97. At 02:47am on 09 Jan 2011, polgarth wrote:

    There has been a degradation of this country's stability, engendered by the selfish financial doings of principal banks and finance houses resulting in a high unemployment situation, that has severely impacted all that has always been admired in America, namely, the can-do spirit and inventive character of its people

    With few exceptions, maintenance of the national infrastructure has been abandoned, the most efficient manufacturing system in the world has been essentially disbanded in favor of offshore suppliers, illegal armed conflicts overseas are draining its treasury and taking the lives of its young people, and there is an unparalleled chasm between its rich and its poor.

    These conditions brought President Obama to office to replace the venal Bush/Cheney administration, and there followed an outburst of hatred, primarily race-related, aided and abetted by the highest court in the land and funded by the right-wing press and their paid television mouthpieces. One consequence of this activity has been the establishment of the essentially lawless Arizona, with state-government approved racial profiling and the most lax gun controls in the country. Rabid right-wing web sites have posted death threats to its centrist officials.

    It should therefore come as no surprise to find the toll of death and injury from today's happenings occurring in this state. It bodes ill for the future years in this America of ours.

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  • 98. At 02:49am on 09 Jan 2011, Curt Carpenter wrote:

    I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!.

    Barry Goldwater, (R) Arizona, 1964.




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  • 99. At 02:52am on 09 Jan 2011, UpperLeftCoast wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 100. At 02:54am on 09 Jan 2011, mabelwhite wrote:

    In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.
    - Mark Twain

    comparatively "febrile" my foot, they can't even raise college tuition in the UK without riots

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  • 101. At 02:59am on 09 Jan 2011, schnit123 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 102. At 03:19am on 09 Jan 2011, SuperCritical wrote:

    @bostonian32: But if you can't tell the difference between calling for a war on certain POLICIES (right or left wing) versus calling for the death of certain HUMANS, you cannot be reasoned with.

    So speaks the voice of reason; certainly the right has never made public calls for the assassination of certain people like Hugo Chavez...

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  • 103. At 03:25am on 09 Jan 2011, mabelwhite wrote:

    Quick --- group hug and listen to a hippy song about peace

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS6gNxp-RI0

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  • 104. At 03:26am on 09 Jan 2011, AndreaNY wrote:

    It's probably wise to wait until all of the facts are known before making accusations.

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  • 105. At 03:43am on 09 Jan 2011, Martin wrote:

    NRA Slogan: "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"
    What utter rubbish. You Americans just don't get it, do you. An angry person without a gun can't kill anyone.

    Schnit123 is also talking rubbish when he refers to background checks. I work with Americans and know from first hand experience that such checks are so much paperwork b/s.

    We may be Europeans but we can see the wood from the trees.

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  • 106. At 03:45am on 09 Jan 2011, offinthewilds wrote:

    One of your BBC blogs asked about Pakistani's willing to stand up against political Violence. I am a sad American who wants to stand against this scourge. Also, you Brits need to remember that American political discourse is full of code words. And, the new Chair of the Congressional committee that oversees our Federal Reserve Chairman, is a passionate advocate for returning to the gold standard.

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  • 107. At 03:47am on 09 Jan 2011, jorg25 wrote:

    The comments about Palin's "targeting" Democratic opponents complete with a US map with supposed "crosshairs" showing the locations of such opponents is a gross exageration, distortion and largely irrelevant to the tragedy in Arizona. Sorry, too much is being made of this

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  • 108. At 03:49am on 09 Jan 2011, AndreaNY wrote:

    102. super_critical:

    @bostonian32: But if you can't tell the difference between calling for a war on certain POLICIES (right or left wing) versus calling for the death of certain HUMANS, you cannot be reasoned with.

    ************
    What next? Blaming our Mideast wars on Clinton's "War Room"?

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  • 109. At 03:52am on 09 Jan 2011, wolfvorkian wrote:

    AndreaNY wrote:

    It's probably wise to wait until all of the facts are known before making accusations.

    Wait for what? You surely don't need more time to decide whether the violent rhetoric and metaphors used by demagogues like Palin, Savage, Beck, etc. encourage the fruitcakes to take violent actions like we saw today, do you? Sick talk leads to sick actions.

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  • 110. At 03:59am on 09 Jan 2011, Bob Howes wrote:

    American politics are "febrile indeed" and Mark Mardell is right to point out that the reaction on both sides of the divide is ample proof of this.

    However, even if it turns out the shooter was simply a disturbed loaner, who's to say that metaphors like gun sights and "don't retreat, RE-LOAD" didn't have at least a subconscious effect. Such metaphors have no place in politics--it only takes one disturbed mind taking them seriously for tragedy to result.

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  • 111. At 04:01am on 09 Jan 2011, AndreaNY wrote:

    109. wolfvorkian:

    AndreaNY wrote:

    It's probably wise to wait until all of the facts are known before making accusations.

    Wait for what? You surely don't need more time to decide whether the violent rhetoric and metaphors used by demagogues like Palin, Savage, Beck, etc. encourage the fruitcakes to take violent actions like we saw today, do you? Sick talk leads to sick actions.

    *************
    What if you find the shooter is a liberal who didn't like moderates? Mental illness crosses party lines.

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  • 112. At 04:03am on 09 Jan 2011, kevooo wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 113. At 04:03am on 09 Jan 2011, wolfvorkian wrote:

    schnit123 wrote:

    The point is that anyone on here who says concealed permit licenses are given away too easily in America (especially if a European is saying it) has no idea what they are talking about.

    Include yourself in this group. Here in Alaska, you don't even need a concealed permit to legally carry a guy hidden on your body.

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  • 114. At 04:07am on 09 Jan 2011, JClarkson wrote:

    #105

    "An angry person without a gun can't kill anyone."



    http://www.bbc.co.uk/search/news/?q=stabbing


    :D

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  • 115. At 04:17am on 09 Jan 2011, Prsley wrote:

    Perhaps the time has arrived for the United States to separate into two countries, similar to the referendum about to take place in Sudan. There seems to be so little in common between the two political extremes, that I would question the validity of this country remaining united.

    The differences between the liberal left and the conservative right in America seems to be growing worse each day, and the distasteful rhetoric constantly spewing from both sides leaves little hope for reconciliation. Each side immediately blames the other for any problems, considers themselves to be intellectually superior, considers any beliefs other than their own to be morally reprehensible, and considers compromise to be unacceptable.

    The left is as hateful and vicious as the right and the right is as hateful and vicious as the left. The situation is further exasperated by commercial news sources sensationalizing coverage, and by the plethora of social networking encouraging further escalations.

    I consider myself a moderate, and see value to many central ideas of both sides. Unfortunately, I see little hope for the current political situation in this country.

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  • 116. At 04:35am on 09 Jan 2011, Morrissey Smiff wrote:

    The United States is an evil entity. Both political sides are driven by think tanks funded by business and the billionaire class. It's a tactic called 'divide and rule' and is incredibly effective.

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  • 117. At 04:38am on 09 Jan 2011, JClarkson wrote:

    #115

    "I consider myself a moderate, and see value to many central ideas of both sides. Unfortunately, I see little hope for the current political situation in this country."


    Join the club. Most Americans are moderates, most of the time, on most issues.


    Do I need to explain the pendulum swing of electing Obama, after Bush junior? Middle America is at the mid-point of the oscillation, somewhere between Bush's "crusade" and ObamaCare.


    Stay away from politics, clearly you don't have the stomach for it.

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  • 118. At 04:42am on 09 Jan 2011, bostonian32 wrote:

    102. At 03:19am on 09 Jan 2011, super_critical wrote:

    @bostonian32: But if you can't tell the difference between calling for a war on certain POLICIES (right or left wing) versus calling for the death of certain HUMANS, you cannot be reasoned with.

    So speaks the voice of reason; certainly the right has never made public calls for the assassination of certain people like Hugo Chavez...

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Whatever gave you the impression that I'm defending the right? There are nutcases on both sides. My point is simply that opposition to political policies is NOT the same as calling for the murder of someone - whether either of the two is committed by those on the right or those on the left matters not. To equate opposition of ideas or policies to murder is to plainly suppress dissent. It is the very foundation of dictatorships - "he who threatens my policies threatens society"

    And for the record since u bring it up, Hugo Chavez today is virtual dictator of Venezuela. Using the cover of a national emergency, he has granted himself the power to "rule by decree" for the next 18 months - i.e. his word IS the law, he simply has no check on his powers. If that is not old-fashioned dictatorship, I don't know what is. Ah, but the left wingers in the US will not utter a peep about it, will say nothing about him - for them there are "good dictators" (left wing like Chavez) and "bad dictators" (right wing like Pinochet). To me, a dictator is a dictator is a dictator.

    Oh, and Chavez has also said (as have the army chiefs in Venezuela) that if he loses the next election, it would result in violence. That is plain gangsterism and thuggery. None of this is meant to insinuate that the US should assassinate him. But watch and wait, Chavez is a "Robert Mugabe for Latin America" in waiting. The parallels between the two men are scary - start with populism, get support by the army, state takeovers of private property, declarations that democratic election losses would result in violence, and finally rule by decree - a good old fashioned dictator. Oh, but its all done "for the people". Let's never forget that after all, the man comes from the army where might makes right....

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  • 119. At 04:43am on 09 Jan 2011, JClarkson wrote:

    #116


    And that's the way they like it.

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  • 120. At 04:50am on 09 Jan 2011, jamesg1103 wrote:

    Here's a comment left on a well-known American left-wing forum on Thursday, two days before the shooting. The poster is obviously a left winger; no right winger would object to a representative's vote against Nancy Pelosi.

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    If you're pressed for time the comment begins as follows "My CongressWOMAN voted against Nancy Pelosi! And is now DEAD to me!" (Caps in the original)

    The comment was removed by that site's moderators, but only after the shooting.

    Based on the facts concerning the suspect now in custody I don't think this poster had anything to do with the shooting despite the language he uses and despite the fact that he lives in the congresswoman's district.

    However, despite the assumptions made by many commenters I am unaware of anything remotely like this emanating from American conservatives.

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  • 121. At 05:00am on 09 Jan 2011, raywanpen wrote:

    Mark, This is a double edge sword. I wish to remind people the bad verbal attacks at the previous president and vice president from all of the news medias, which made people very angry and made a person throw his shoe at the president, made people make bumper stickers that were very hateful speech. I am sure that their was several attempts on their lives as their has been attempts on the current president. The sad thing is that when the hate and anger is at republicans well that is okay with democrats but when it is made at democrats, well we need to silence people and have them arrested and prosecuted. To me that is very one sided and seem to be living in a country similar to be like Myanmar otherwise known as Burma. It is very sad that we have people who just do not know right from wrong and have serious mental problems, but we should look at the politicians who do not listen to the people when the white house switchboard is lit up about certain bills that are being ready to take a vote on and the people say no but the politicians go and vote against the people wishes, well the people are getting more angry. Other incidents was a man who was beaten by union people at a tea party protest and also when people were bused to insurance and bank ceo homes and got violent, and since we are talking about sarah palin how about all of the hate speech and violent attacks at her and her family. If a person is going to yell fire well they better be ready to yell fire no matter who's house is on fire. a double edge sword thank you for your time

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  • 122. At 05:12am on 09 Jan 2011, raywanpen wrote:

    116. At 04:35am on 09 Jan 2011, highfieldhome wrote:

    The United States is an evil entity. Both political sides are driven by think tanks funded by business and the billionaire class. It's a tactic called 'divide and rule' and is incredibly effective.

    when countries are in need of help which country comes and helps, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, wars, usa comes and gives aid and money. if the usa did not rich americans and were poor who will come to help china? americans love peace more than any other country, their is more violence in other countries. if we became a poor country who would pay the bills at the united nations. if we closed our borders and stopped all immigration and trade what would happen, and one last thing if another country would have developed the atomic bomb would that country have stopped or would they have taken control of other countries. tell me what country that the united states went to war with and now belongs to the usa

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  • 123. At 05:18am on 09 Jan 2011, kevooo wrote:

    112. At 04:03am on 09 Jan 2011, you wrote:
    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules
    -----------------------
    What?!! I can't imagine what I wrote that broke house rules!
    I'll sum it and see if it gets posted.

    Obviously this is a tragedy, especially that a child was killed.
    While we don't know the details of the shooting yet, we do know that the congresswoman was the target.
    As for Sara Palin's "targets", of course she did not intend for anyone to take her literally.
    With so many Americans becoming desperate from the economic situation in this country, the rhetoric coming from both sides needs to be less extreme and more responsible.
    Everyday in the "news", we have radicals from both sides telling us that the other side is literally destroying our country. The extremist political pundits really need to be kept in check because they can become unintentional instigators. Obviously the shooter is the one to blame, but these are still issues that should be considered.
    Again, we don't know the shooter's motives, but we do know that we had a lunatic with a gun that targeted a politican.

    Terrible tragedy for those people!


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  • 124. At 05:21am on 09 Jan 2011, rick10687 wrote:

    A elected member of the United States Congress has been shot. It is a tragedy and an affront to the peaceful exercise of political power here.
    Sadly, the typical reaction of political groups in the US is to condemn the opposition and immediately seek to exploit any political advantage. Its all about discrediting the other parties or "clubs," and claiming that anyone in an opposing club who thinks differently actually intends to bring the US to its knees through what must be absurd, destructive policies. There is no compassion and no middle ground in US politics anymore. There is no give and take or compromise left. Its all about gaining the upper hand in the endless struggle with the "other side." My country is in great peril. There is no powerful advocate for the US as a nation indivisible.

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  • 125. At 05:23am on 09 Jan 2011, sfa wrote:

    @schnit123: "And, if I'm not mistaken, it was in 1996 that Ireland stopped throwing women in prison for the crime of being raped."

    You are mistaken. There has never been such a law in Ireland. Rape has always been a crime in Ireland. Being raped has never been a crime.

    "Anyone with a history of crime or mental instability is not allowed to own a gun in any state, no matter how lax their laws are."

    That's been really effective in this case, hasn't it?

    You're also ignoring the huge loophole in the Firearm Owners Protection Act, the so-called 'gun show loophole'. This allows private intrastate sellers to sell guns in most states, including Arizona, without any background checks on the person buying the gun.

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  • 126. At 05:45am on 09 Jan 2011, Prsley wrote:

    RE: 117. At 04:38am on 09 Jan 2011, JClarkson wrote:
    "Stay away from politics, clearly you don't have the stomach for it"

    Actually I do 'have the stomach for it'. What I don't have is the PATIENCE for is arguing for the sake of arguing and arguing without intelligent thought, especially with those automatically assuming an intellectually superior attitude.

    Perhaps my comment is better expressed by #124 rick10687:

    "There is no give and take or compromise left. Its all about gaining the upper hand in the endless struggle with the "other side." My country is in great peril. There is no powerful advocate for the US as a nation indivisible".

    Hopefully this is a bit easier to comprehend.

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  • 127. At 05:54am on 09 Jan 2011, bill torbitt wrote:

    I have nevcer lived in the US but from my school history the hysterical political atmosphere revealed in these posts sounds disturbingly like the run up to the civil war in the early 19th century.
    Howver, I think it is a very good idea for the federal government to be dissolved and the States to achieve full independence, if that's what the Tea Party wants. Then Russioa and China, when they are ready, can come and pick these states off one by one.

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  • 128. At 06:02am on 09 Jan 2011, Stevenson wrote:

    Everyone is saying "this is not political...calm down...this is no right vs left civil war"...hmmmm

    But, then, we still wonder....has something horrible happened to our nation? Is there really a right wing fringe element? ...

    Yes, is my gut feeling. There really IS a "dangerous right wing fringe" these days--and I'm not talking about the vast majority of right of center politicians, here.

    But, this "Tea Party" grouping does.. seem.. to.. attract.. THE UNHINGED FEW.

    It stares one in the face. People carrying guns to Obama speeches? People hanging a Federal worker (a recent lynching)? Rascism dismissed, yet still obvious racism existing, acted out--a Stephen King scenario--at Tea Party rallies?

    These are not sane people ..unlike most Republicans/Conservatives or ..most people--these are a distinct minority of scary gun/knife toting psychos

    right here in the good ol' US of A.

    And it IS hard to not sound incoherent and scared when talking or writing about them.

    It leaves me feeling cold and shivering--not because its 20 degrees outside

    :)

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  • 129. At 06:18am on 09 Jan 2011, Kathy wrote:

    The gun analogy used by anyone in the US is reckless. But the bigger issue is that our politicians, regardless of which party, motivate us to do what they want by keeping us afraid. When an insane person becomes afraid, it's not a very far leap for them to feel they must attack first.

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  • 130. At 06:20am on 09 Jan 2011, JClarkson wrote:

    #128


    "People hanging a Federal worker (a recent lynching)?"


    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2009/11/census_worker_killing_probe_ne.html

    "It leaves me feeling cold and shivering--not because its 20 degrees outside"

    Poor circulation will do that. Not enough blood being pumped, the first organ affected is the brain.

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  • 131. At 06:34am on 09 Jan 2011, Stevenson wrote:

    Thanks, Mr. JClarkson,

    Your previous posts have shown me your lack of civility/charm, but thanks anyway, for "informing" me. ..so helpful:))

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  • 132. At 06:35am on 09 Jan 2011, Kansasfarmer wrote:

    I am 42 and have never seen this nation so divided into left and right camps. No one even knows yet what motivated this shooter(he may have just been crazy) and already the left versus right hatred is spewing everywhere.

    This country(USA) really needs to get a grip, we are going to tear ourselves apart.

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  • 133. At 06:35am on 09 Jan 2011, JClarkson wrote:

    #126

    "There is no powerful advocate for the US as a nation indivisible."


    Pipe dream. The nation has never been "indivisible". There were dissenters at every step of the US's history. Probably started with Benedict Arnold. Personally I would be unsettled by anything that the entire country would be unanimous on. In politics, unanimity is always suspect and sometimes a precursor to really, really bad decisions.


    Accept the system for what it is. Some politician, who was trying to compromise too hard, commented once something to the effect that when you stand in the middle of the road, you get run over by traffic from BOTH directions.

    Of course there is the option of staying off the road, altogether.

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  • 134. At 06:40am on 09 Jan 2011, Tim L wrote:

    Based on the evidence I've seen so far, this has nothing to do with politics. It has everything to do with the dangers of interacting with the public at large, which ALWAYS includes those with an intent to act violently. Throughout history, politicians attempting to get up close and personal with their constituents have been subject to assassination attempts. JFK, by merely not being in an armored vehicle. His brother, by merely not being behind armored glass. Gerald Ford, Ronald Reagan are other examples.
    Unfortunately as a politician you are especially vulnerable as you are seen to have enormous power and status by some people.
    A real tragedy (in addition to those who died and were wounded) will be the total reluctance for any politician to engage in this kind of down to earth behavior of interacting closely and openly with one's constituents.

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  • 135. At 06:50am on 09 Jan 2011, Marton R wrote:

    Mr. Mardell,

    It's nice, hat as a journalist, you are willing to give some doubt until we know all the facts.

    But the fact that Sarah Palin has alrady "offered her prayers" says a lot --- in my books, she can keep them, she is the impersonation of the greedy, thick publicity hound who will do anything for the spotlight ---

    This goes onto her account, period. She and the wingnuts supporting her, from Ayles down to those fruitcakes getting dressed up as colonial Americans, have been creating fake hype for two years now, and their chickens are coming home to roost in the form of ´more nutcakes brandishing beloved weapons.

    And this will not go away, because within 3 days Americans will already be lusting after some other hype, and the news media will be quite happy to provide.

    I was a journalist myself until recently, I know how the system works. I now work in the humanitarian field, it's at least real.

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  • 136. At 06:56am on 09 Jan 2011, JClarkson wrote:

    #135

    "I was a journalist myself until recently, I know how the system works. I now work in the humanitarian field, it's at least real."

    Your true calling, no doubt. Journalism requires balance and objectivity.

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  • 137. At 07:13am on 09 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    • 127. At 05:54am on 09 Jan 2011, bill torbitt wrote:
    I have nevcer lived in the US…
    Howver, I think it is a very good idea for the federal government to be dissolved and the States to achieve full independence, if that's what the Tea Party wants.
    _______________________________________________________________________

    Nobody has ever advocated dissolving the Union altogether. Even before the War of Northern Aggression, the Southern States seceded from the Federal Gov't based in Washington in order to form the Confederacy. The Tea Party (among others, such as many Libertarians) only want the Federal gov't to go back to being a federal gov't instead of what it has become, a central gov't.

    Of course, none of this has anything to do with a 22 year old nut-job that still lives with Mama & Daddy gunning down innocent people with the intention of killing a Constitutional officer of the United States.

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  • 138. At 07:17am on 09 Jan 2011, Tim L wrote:

    This may be controversial, but I would like to add this point, does punishing the alleged criminal accomplish anything (I don't know if Arizona utilizes capital punishment, but if it does I assume he will be sentenced to death)?

    I passionately argue that the only fruit that can bear from this tragedy is to understand the perpetrators motives, what formed those motives, and learn as much as possible about the origins of committed violence. Only then can we move forward towards a more peaceful society. Punishment accomplishes nothing. It doesn't bring back the dead and it does NOT deter future violence. Consequence, however is another matter. We must chose what happens, as a matter of consequence, to violent actions. Consequence is always a deterrent, punishment is only revenge.

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  • 139. At 07:19am on 09 Jan 2011, KScurmudgeon wrote:

    Right or wrong, this will be a referendum on the tactics the Republicans have used to whip up enthusiasm (or call it fear) in their base, and return to power.
    Related or not, Sarah Palin's use of crosshairs over the faces of political opponents, and especially her defense of the practice, is symbolic of these tactics and of the new politics in America.

    It may be rah! rah! stuff to use gun metaphors in politics - but just as it is not appropriate to point a gun at a person, it is not appropriate rhetoric (yes, even good old boys understand the term) to use gun symbolism to make a political point. And there was a lot of that in 2010. If anyone doubts it, today has made the point.

    Everything now depends on how the Right and the Republicans react. If they are defensive in the least, I say they are guilty. If they roundly condemn every act of political violence and move to purge the language of violence from their argument, we may all have a chance once again.

    KScurmudgeon

    But you did do it - you stuck your foot in it, and the tar is all over your boot.

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  • 140. At 07:27am on 09 Jan 2011, kevooo wrote:

    132. At 06:35am on 09 Jan 2011, Kansasfarmer wrote:
    I am 42 and have never seen this nation so divided into left and right camps. No one even knows yet what motivated this shooter(he may have just been crazy) and already the left versus right hatred is spewing everywhere.

    This country(USA) really needs to get a grip, we are going to tear ourselves apart.
    ------------------------
    You're right, he may have just been crazy. I think what's happening is not so much left vs right hatred, but a realization that neither party has the average American's best interest in mind. Our government no longer functions as it was designed to, you know- of the people, by the people, for the people. Corporations, special interest groups, etc. and career politicians equal greed, power and corruption. Where does the everyday American fit in? I beleive the US is in real trouble and many Americans don't want to believe it or think nothing too bad will happen, simply because this is America. Well, I hope this is as bad as it gets but I'm not very optimistic right now.

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  • 141. At 07:35am on 09 Jan 2011, kevooo wrote:

    138. At 07:17am on 09 Jan 2011, Tim L wrote:
    This may be controversial, but I would like to add this point, does punishing the alleged criminal accomplish anything (I don't know if Arizona utilizes capital punishment, but if it does I assume he will be sentenced to death)?

    I passionately argue that the only fruit that can bear from this tragedy is to understand the perpetrators motives, what formed those motives, and learn as much as possible about the origins of committed violence. Only then can we move forward towards a more peaceful society. Punishment accomplishes nothing. It doesn't bring back the dead and it does NOT deter future violence. Consequence, however is another matter. We must chose what happens, as a matter of consequence, to violent actions. Consequence is always a deterrent, punishment is only revenge.
    --------------------
    Umm. What are you suggesting? A consequence of committing a crime is the punishment. Of course we want to understand the motives, but then what? What am I missing here?

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  • 142. At 07:42am on 09 Jan 2011, JClarkson wrote:

    #138


    "Consequence is always a deterrent, punishment is only revenge."

    Punishment is a consequence. Sorry to pop that balloon.

    And yes, Arizona has the death penalty, which this murderer can only escape from if his lawyer convinces 12 adults that his client is (or was at the time) insane. In which case he may get life in prison.

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  • 143. At 07:54am on 09 Jan 2011, JClarkson wrote:

    #139

    "If they are defensive in the least, I say they are guilty."


    I know you would do well as a judge. Supreme Court material, at the very least.


    "If they roundly condemn every act of political violence..."


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_%28abolitionist%29


    A provocative idea. Green and naive but provocative. Much better than the first one.

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  • 144. At 07:55am on 09 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    142. At 07:42am on 09 Jan 2011, JClarkson wrote:
    #138


    "Consequence is always a deterrent, punishment is only revenge."

    Punishment is a consequence. Sorry to pop that balloon.

    And yes, Arizona has the death penalty, which this murderer can only escape from if his lawyer convinces 12 adults that his client is (or was at the time) insane. In which case he may get life in prison.
    ___________________________________________________________
    Yes, and in most states, the standard for an insanity defence is to convince a judge (and the jury) that the defendant was so mentally unstable at the time the crime was committed as to not know that killing another human being was both illegal and morally wrong. When there is blood on the ground and new tombstones being carved, it is normally nearly impossible for even the most eloquent trial lawyer to reach that standard. If the standard is reached or not, I’m willing to bet that this perpetrator will never see the light of day, either way. Since he killed a 9 year old girl, his chances of surviving in a Big House’s general population are 2: slim and none.

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  • 145. At 07:58am on 09 Jan 2011, soydegales wrote:

    Arizona & Alaska - unrestricted carrying of concealed firearms. Oh, but I forgot "guns don't kill people, people kill people".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States

    "Arizona is an unrestricted carry state. On April 16, 2010, Arizona Governor Jan Brewer signed legislation allowing for unrestricted carry. The law took effect 90 days after the end of the state's current legislative session, putting the effective date on July 29, 2010. Arizona followed the lead of Alaska by continuing to issue permits on a "shall-issue" basis."



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  • 146. At 08:09am on 09 Jan 2011, JClarkson wrote:

    #145

    You forgot to explain the relevance of the restricted vs. unrestricted carrying of concealed firearms, to this situation.

    I think you were trying to say something but it didn't come across in any intelligible way. A restricted (permit based) carrying law would have prevented this?

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  • 147. At 08:19am on 09 Jan 2011, KScurmudgeon wrote:

    143. At 07:54am on 09 Jan 2011, JClarkson wrote:

    #139
    "If they are defensive in the least, I say they are guilty."

    I know you would do well as a judge. Supreme Court material, at the very least.
    ____________________________

    Guilty of what? Guilty as charged - of using the language of the gun culture in a political context, of inferring that political issues could be resolved by violence. Which has damaged civil discourse in this democracy.

    "If they roundly condemn every act of political violence..."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_%28abolitionist%29

    A provocative idea. Green and naive but provocative. Much better than the first one.
    _______________________

    As a Kansan, I hereby renounce any association with the 'John Brown' solution. Now, why did I have to even say that?

    KSc

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  • 148. At 08:22am on 09 Jan 2011, Tim L wrote:

    @ 141 "Umm. What are you suggesting? A consequence of committing a crime is the punishment. Of course we want to understand the motives, but then what? What am I missing here?"

    --

    Consequence does not equal punishment. Punishment is simply revenge. What are you missing? If we understand motives, if we understand cause and effect, we can address the ACTUAL problems in OUR SOCIETY that lead to violence. NO MAN IS AN ISLAND!!!! That is what I'm getting at.

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  • 149. At 08:32am on 09 Jan 2011, Tim L wrote:

    #142 "Punishment is a consequence. Sorry to pop that balloon. "

    Wrong. If you jump off a tall building, you die as a consequence. You are not being punished for jumping off of the building. If you drink alcohol, the consequence is impaired judgement, that is not punishment.

    Punishment is revenge. My argument is that if someone murders someone, punishment is no answer, revenge solves no problems. If you don't want to be murdered, the only sure way to prevent that is to be sure there is a consequence which incapacitates the perpetrator before he/she can murder you.

    Once the murder has taken place, it's set in stone, nothing can change the past. We can however change the future by working towards understanding the roots of violence and removing the "seeds" in our society that sow violence. The individual is not shaped by himself, he is shaped by his environment, both (though mostly) immediate and remote.

    We all have a role in this because our actions, interests, and beliefs shape society every moment.

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  • 150. At 08:35am on 09 Jan 2011, JClarkson wrote:

    #147

    "Guilty of what? Guilty as charged - of using the language of the gun culture in a political context, of inferring that political issues could be resolved by violence."


    Type "gun metaphor in politics" in Google and see who else agrees with you. In the last 48 hours, at least.

    Don't scroll too far down, though, you may end up indicting half the press...

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  • 151. At 08:41am on 09 Jan 2011, Immortal so far wrote:

    Lasting consequences? Tonight, two liberals decided to arm themselves.

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  • 152. At 08:52am on 09 Jan 2011, pandora wrote:

    I think that people like Glenn Beck, etc who feed into the anxieties and fears of normally intelligent people do great harm to rational discourse. I think that while the left has not been pristine pure in its dialog with the right, many in the right have become so reactive, paranoid, strident and belligerent in their declarations that I fear for civilized communication between people of different viewpoints dissolving into stupid, idiotic, violence.

    Wj66 is wise in his counsel to hold off the blame game until we know more. That is a very reasonable statement. However, to then go and blame the “divisive atmosphere” on our bland, unaudacious, slavishly centrist, and corporate hugging President Obama is just ludicrous. I didn’t vote for the man. Nevertheless, he is so middle-of-the-road that every time I hear or read that people think he is evil, or a Marxist, or a bully, or a Muslim, or a flaming left-wing radical...well,they must have a severe disconnect with reality, and haven’t a clue as to what really is left-wing.

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  • 153. At 08:56am on 09 Jan 2011, JClarkson wrote:

    #149

    "Wrong. If you jump off a tall building, you die as a consequence. You are not being punished for jumping off of the building. If you drink alcohol, the consequence is impaired judgement, that is not punishment."


    Sorry Tim but you are full of balloons today. Both of your attempts at analogy involves someone doing something to themselves, not to others.


    Let me see if I can fix them for you.

    If you push someone off a building, they die as a consequence. But, as you may have heard, actions can and do have multiple consequences. So, in addition to that person dying, you go to prison (or get executed yourself, if convicted in the right place). That is another consequence. One is the dead victim, the other is what happens to you as...get ready for it..a CONSEQUENCE of your action.

    Likewise with the alcohol. One consequence, to yourself, until you do something to someone else as a CONSEQUENCE of being intoxicated. The law then subjects you, to your share of the consequences of driving drunk and killing someone. See? One consequence for you and another for someone else. Because of you.


    "Once the murder has taken place, it's set in stone, nothing can change the past."


    Punishment is not an attempt at changing the past, it's an act that changes someone's future. Think about it.

    And review the meaning of the terms you use, the dictionaries are a good start.

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  • 154. At 08:56am on 09 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    138. At 07:17am on 09 Jan 2011, Tim L wrote:
    This may be controversial, but I would like to add this point, does punishing the alleged criminal accomplish anything (I don't know if Arizona utilizes capital punishment, but if it does I assume he will be sentenced to death)?
    _____________________________________________________________
    I think naive is a better characterization. Punishment does prevent crime. If this guy does get executed, we can know with certainty that he will never ever kill another human being. Anyway, in the 60s and 70s many US states experimented with rehabilitating rather than incarcerating and the crime stats skyrocketed and the voter rebelled against the bleeding heart politicians that supported such programs. You are right in that there is an underlying problem; we of more traditional persuasions refer to it as sin. Humans are basically evil and only behave well when there are consequences to evil behaviour. Sometimes the consequences don’t prove adequate for a particular individual and that individual has to face punishment.

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  • 155. At 09:10am on 09 Jan 2011, Brainwashing the masses wrote:

    All posts are pre-moderated. What does this mean?
    >>
    It means that if anyone REALLY hits the spot without using any of the BBCs no no's the post will not appear.
    .
    The very worst thing about most Liberals is they know best, and if you don’t agree you are either mad, or declared to be one of the `ISTS.
    It’s a old communist trick.
    You can suppress, use Neural Linguistic programming or imprisonment but eventually the dam will burst.

    I guess this poor man might have been unstable to start off with and just couldn’t take any more. As far as the USofA goes it’s a big country, yet Liberals will only accept THEIR version of multiculturalism i:e the melting pot.
    There are potentially many forms of multiculturalism or multiracialism eg: areas of White only people, Black, Asian etc. But Liberals only seem to get enraged when they see large concentrations of White folks together.
    They just don’t like it, and their bigotry shows.

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  • 156. At 09:18am on 09 Jan 2011, Icebloo wrote:

    The blame for this lies firmly at the feet of Sarah Palin and the Tea Party people - they know they are abusing their positions and using this platform to incite hatred and violence. The Republican Party needs to stand up and throw these people out of their party instead of pandering to them for votes. Sarah Palin should be in jail for this !

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  • 157. At 09:20am on 09 Jan 2011, Icebloo wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 158. At 09:21am on 09 Jan 2011, W Fletcher wrote:

    Errrrrrrr why is this a surprise? The US wants EVERYONE to have the "right" to carry guns & more guns, the populace gives the impression of having almost zero attachment to reality - the killer(s) probably thought they were playing a computer game!

    Ok in 1823 a person might need an arsenal of weapons in their house.....but in downtown Yankville in 2011?????????

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  • 159. At 09:23am on 09 Jan 2011, Icebloo wrote:

    Rupert Murdoch and a few other right wing extremist billionaires are funding the Tea Party despite the Tea Party's claims that they are poor, grassroots people. The Tories in the UK are just about to hand over a huge part of the UK media to Murdoch so expect the same kind of hate and lies to be promoted in the UK through Murdoch's evil media machine.

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  • 160. At 09:24am on 09 Jan 2011, Oldloadr wrote:

    152. At 08:52am on 09 Jan 2011, pandora wrote:
    well,they must have a severe disconnect with reality, and haven’t a clue as to what really is left-wing.
    ____________________________________________________________
    Could you enlighten us with your definition of "left wing" or Marxist? What most not forget is when we say left or right, we are talking about arbitrary values on the X axis. Therefore, it might not be that Obama is a centrist, he is just closer to the center than you are. He looks very left wing to me, but I know that I have certain single issues that define left to me and he is deep into them, e.g. partial birth abortion, gov’t run health care, sexual lifestyle choice as a civil right, etc. At least in the United States, these are some of the issues that define, “The Left,” or the progressives, if you will. That is, those who didn’t like the country they were born into, and rather than go somewhere they would have liked, choose to stay here and try to destroy what many conservatives consider to be the foundations of our society. This could have something to do with the heated nature of the debate. An earlier poster mentioned a possible parallel to the rhetoric that flowed back and forth across the Mason-Dixon line in the years leading up to the War between the States…
    On a separate note: the word “Campaign” is itself and military term borrowed by politicians; I would never expect politicians to purge all terms marshal from their vocabulary.

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  • 161. At 09:26am on 09 Jan 2011, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #69
    KG wrote:
    "The latest news reports say the assailant was distrubed talking of mindcontrol, and a gold and silver back eeconomy.

    So this is not a time for Tea Party bashers to use this for politics" - Magic Kirin

    Exactly the kind of anti-government paranoia the Tea Party and its "libertarian" funders such as the Koch brothers have been peddling.
    ____________

    well this proves my point, even thought the reports that this man was mentaly distrurbed liberals will blame the Tea Party.

    Even though unlike the protesters against Arizona ilegal immigration law or WTO Group 20 protesters or Union strikers who commit violence and property damage; the Tea Party has been civilized.

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  • 162. At 09:27am on 09 Jan 2011, Icebloo wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 163. At 09:27am on 09 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    Do not be fooled by a media frenzy that fills your minds with a lust for any more blood....it`s NOT any politicians fault and punishing a madman will only deceive you into thinking that you are solving a problem when you should be asking WHY he felt driven to do it.... and examining your society for clues in the way your POLITICS works ...rather than looking for someone to blame.

    Here in Britain (and just as obviously in the USA) the uncomfortable truth is that NO ONE really represents the POOR who were BORN in our countries.

    Both of our nations have become rich by IGNORING our own poor and PRETENDING to be great humanitarians ABROAD and treating immigrants far better than we do our own kith and kin.

    In the case of Britain many Americans have ancestors who were starved and thrown out of the British Isles...but when our absurd "left of centre" politicians are lying to poor British people today they claim we NEED more immigrants and that the indigenous poor are fascists and racists and hateful people if they ask where all these thousands more "foreign students"and "asylum seekers" are going to live!

    That`s the problem in a nutshell NO ONE represents large sections of OUR people...but ALL side of politics are big friends of immigrants ....though for very different reasons.

    In Britain we had 7/7 and "Bigotgate"....which the left wing BBC swiftly turned into a way of beating up right wing politics and anyone who challenges our insane immigration policies.

    There was never any chance to really examine the dynamics behind WHY British men blew themselves and fifty-two others up ....any more than anyone was allowed to examine why our Prime Minister called a mild mannered woman who made a simple point about the thousands of immigrants arriving in her home town a "stupid old bigot"....and NO politician or journalist dared examine whether she had a point!

    The media are PART of politics now....and in Britain the BBC have virtually replaced the old working class politicians in representing the left wing liberal humanitarian ideas (for which we formed the Labour Party in the last century).......but while both the current Labour Party and the BBC are filled with great champions for the FOREIGN poor and for immigrants inside our country they IGNORE indigenous disadvantaged people and HEAP CONTEMPT on anyone who tries to represent their imterests.

    The Sarah Palin`s of England are the persecuted BNP and EDL and people like Enoch Powell in the past....and look what happens to them REGARDLESS OF WHAT VOTERS THINK OR WANT!

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  • 164. At 09:30am on 09 Jan 2011, TerryXT wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 165. At 09:30am on 09 Jan 2011, holierthanthou wrote:

    5. At 9:58pm on 08 Jan 2011, MarkofSOSH wrote:

    You don't think the right wing (including Sarah Palin) wouldn't be all over this like a rash if it was the other way round - if a Republican Congressman had been shot after a liberal Democrat put up a poster with cross-hairs on it against the Congressman's name?


    They probably would, however having looked at the graphic all I can say is that was at worst very distasteful and misguided.

    Much as I dislike the little I have heard of Sarah Palin (from this side of pond), she cant really be held responsible for the actions of a nutter.

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  • 166. At 09:32am on 09 Jan 2011, Icebloo wrote:

    When left wingers want someone out of office they generally use the ballot box. When right wingers want someone out of office they assassinate them - there is a long history of it in the US. It seems the right wingers claim they believe in democracy and hail the US as the best democracy in the world UNTIL the left wing are voted in and then the right wingers forget democracy and head for the streets with guns.

    You can't have it both ways - you either want democracy or not. Living in a democracy means that sometimes you don't get what you want - it doesn't mean you assassinate people who don't agree with you.

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  • 167. At 09:32am on 09 Jan 2011, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #138
    Tim L wrote:
    This may be controversial, but I would like to add this point, does punishing the alleged criminal accomplish anything (I don't know if Arizona utilizes capital punishment, but if it does I assume he will be sentenced to death)?

    I passionately argue that the only fruit that can bear from this tragedy is to understand the perpetrators motives, what formed those motives, and learn as much as possible about the origins of committed violence. Only then can we move forward towards a more peaceful society. Punishment accomplishes nothing. It doesn't bring back the dead and it does NOT deter future violence. Consequence, however is another matter. We must chose what happens, as a matter of consequence, to violent actions. Consequence is always a deterrent, punishment is only revenge.

    _________________

    Yes there is justfication for the death penalty, it is justice and making sure no one else gets killed.

    Life sentances don't mean imprisonment till one is dead.

    We have a case here in Mass where a murderer was released by a parole board despite being a 3 time violent offender who was sentanced to life terms.

    This person in committing a robbery killed a veteran police officer

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  • 168. At 09:33am on 09 Jan 2011, Emzdad wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 169. At 09:36am on 09 Jan 2011, corncobuk wrote:

    Firstly i would like to send my condolences to the families of those killed and injured in this tragedy and wish the injured a speedy recovery. I`ve heard a lot about Sarah Palins cross hairs poster. Was this to blame? Who can tell. Was it even politically motivated? We don`t know. But unlike the british, the americans have easy access to guns and all it takes is one nutter with a grudge and what you see is what we saw yesterday. I think most reasoned people would take the poster as it was intended but obviously this wasn`t a reasoned person. Perhaps campaign organisers should be more careful in what they choose as campaign material in the future knowing these nutters may take it literally and destroy peoples lives.

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  • 170. At 09:43am on 09 Jan 2011, Mick Hodd wrote:

    If one chun's out hate talk and lies day after day people soon start to believe it, as indeed was the case in the run up to the General Election in the UK. Gordon Brown was insulted and humiliated by the Tories. It is only after the election one can clearly see all the lies that the Tories told. In the US the so-called T party and right wing incite violence and this shooting is the tragic result of their big mouths, shame on them.

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  • 171. At 09:43am on 09 Jan 2011, Icebloo wrote:

    The amount of censorship by the BBC on this topic is outrageous. Why have this subject on here if you aren't allowing people to say what they feel ? The BBC are such lapdogs for the right wing.

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  • 172. At 09:43am on 09 Jan 2011, sensiblegrannie wrote:

    Gabby Giffords looked like a genuinely nice person, and someone who reached out to the people she served. Compare her to the person who publicly suggested that Gabby Giffords was a 'target' etc etc. Such rhetoric from a person who is supposed to be a public servant, should be closely examined and challenged at the first opportunity. If I were that person, I would seriously consider resigning, as not fit for purpose.
    There have been so many complaints about the bullying behaviour of teenagers on Facebook and mobile phones and the resultant consequences. Surely, this should be obvious to most people by now. I agree with the observation, that the media is the loaded gun and its target more often or not, is the victim. The unfortunate soul who took it into his head that Gabby should be eliminated, and acted upon it, is probably also a victim of the effects of relentless media manipulation.

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  • 173. At 09:43am on 09 Jan 2011, Percy Blades wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 174. At 09:46am on 09 Jan 2011, Buttle wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 175. At 09:48am on 09 Jan 2011, Brainwashing the masses wrote:

    worcesterjim
    I agree with most of your comments but the BNP and EDL are now not that much diffrent than any other party in Britain.
    Thanks to the political castration that has been forced upon them.
    .
    Liberals are the worst form of dictators possible, as they are, for the most part TOTALLY unaware of that they are!

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  • 176. At 09:48am on 09 Jan 2011, Andy in Highland Perthshire wrote:

    "136. At 06:56am on 09 Jan 2011, JClarkson wrote:

    Your true calling, no doubt. Journalism requires balance and objectivity."

    I doubt whether you really believe your own statement but the huge number of journalists showing neither balance nor objectivity in their work makes it a complete nonsense.

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  • 177. At 09:51am on 09 Jan 2011, L A Odicean wrote:

    Economic turmoil, political polarisation, together with a weakening influence on the global stage and a fear of attack from abroad, has left the USA in a very fragile state.

    The widening gap between the 'haves' and 'have nots' and, not least, the absurd availability of guns, combine to produce a truly frightening society, one that is politically split down the middle with increasingly bellicose and inflammatory criticism from both sides of the political equation.

    The spark that could ignite a firestorm of politically inspired violence could come from any number of armed, bigoted and mentally unstable individuals that American society seems to produce.

    Politicians on all sides need to temper their rhetoric in these dangerous times.

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  • 178. At 09:53am on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    "tell me what country that the united states went to war with and now belongs to the usa" - raywanpen

    *guffaw*
    You stole half a continent from its previous inhabitants. Then there was a very considerably chunk of Mexico. Oh, and Hawaii.

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  • 179. At 09:55am on 09 Jan 2011, BinfieldTiger wrote:

    The Republican Party shows its true colours again- through their poster girl Sarah Palin.

    Anyone who can possibly connect the idea of "target seats" with rifle sights, must have some understanding of the consequences of their actions. There has been too many examples of disturbed individuals in the USA obtaining guns and going on killing sprees. Here we have another one. How much this person has been impacted by Sarah Palins "thoughts" is something we will never know.

    Let us all pray and hope for the recovery of the Arizona Congressman.

    let us all remember how dangerous the world will become if Sarah Palin ever becomes the president of the USA

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  • 180. At 09:56am on 09 Jan 2011, FrankFisher wrote:

    Here we go - so the Left here and in the US will now be demanding that only political stances, arguments and themes on their "approved list" can be used and discussed. We'll end up with a 'democracy' as narrow as a BBC 'have your say' discussion - entire rafts of policy ruled out of order, inflamatory, too dangerous to discuss. How long till disputing AGW is defined as 'hate speech' or arguing for a small state is said to incite terrorism?

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  • 181. At 09:56am on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    "My CongressWOMAN voted against Nancy Pelosi! And is now DEAD to me!" - jamesg1023

    Are you really so ignorant you don't know what "is now DEAD to me" means? It means you no longer care for someone. Actually, I don't believe for a moment you are that ignorant; you're just seeking to distract attention from the hate-filled rhetoric of the American right.

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  • 182. At 09:57am on 09 Jan 2011, rachaeljr wrote:

    Why is this event, even if is abhorrent and tragic, being covered in such depth by the BBC?

    Don't get me wrong, it's a horrible thing to have happened but this short of thing is going on all the time. We have the decapitations in Mexico, the death of French hostages and a myriad of other deaths and events which could be equally subject to such detailed attention. The reporting seems disproportionately attentive.

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  • 183. At 09:58am on 09 Jan 2011, A K Nasir wrote:

    This incident clearly highlight the sheer hypocrisy of the American politicians. They are quick and united to give their narrow-minded views about places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran and Iraq.

    But sadly they can't even sort out their own internal dissensions. If this behavior can cause 'unrest' in the US, what then beholds situation in other countries they have their hand in?

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  • 184. At 10:03am on 09 Jan 2011, NameAgain wrote:

    14. At 10:13pm on 08 Jan 2011, KG wrote:

    `paranoid schizophrenics frequently take things they see on TV etc. to be "messages" to them`

    -----------------------

    Well only one or some portion of the personalities inside a paranoid schizoid see it as a `message`, the other personalities inside respect that personality no matter what.
    If all personlities were to see it as a message, the message would be unrecognizable as message and would lose its meaning to be a message and become a part of usual unsuspected communication...whatever that means.

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  • 185. At 10:04am on 09 Jan 2011, JClarkson wrote:

    #176

    That is their choice to make. It doesn't mean that the profession does not demand it. Sort of like medicine. Doctors take a Hippocratic oath. Whether they really follow its spirit, is their call to make and the profession generally polices itself in such matters.

    There is a term for journalists who fail to live up to those expectations. I believe it's "shil" or something along those lines.

    Or they write "Opinion" or "Editorial" columns, which I don't consider journalism. More like analog versions of modern day blogs.

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  • 186. At 10:07am on 09 Jan 2011, JClarkson wrote:

    Tons of trolls out today.

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  • 187. At 10:07am on 09 Jan 2011, Tim L wrote:

    @ 154 and others.
    We have been executing and punishing violent criminals left and right for eternity. People still get murdered and maimed. So how is punishment and execution preventing crime? Guess what it's not! No matter how much we incarcerate and execute, violent crime persists! Lock up one murderer, another one pops up. We cannot eliminate violence without understanding its source.

    @154, "Humans are basically evil". Well that belief shows you are part of the problem. If that is what you believe, then I do not want to be around you. If you believe that, than I think that is evidence you could do something you believe is evil, after all you are human, no?

    I believe humans are human, not evil, not good. We are what we make ourselves to be and every person on the planet shapes that. If we want to be good, then we must believe we are good. If we want to be evil, then we must believe "Humans are basically evil".

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  • 188. At 10:09am on 09 Jan 2011, holierthanthou wrote:

    There are a great many comments being rejected or awaiting further consideration. Why bother asking opinions?

    I viewed the graphic of Ms Palin's. I found it distasteful but I do not think Ms Palin can be held responsible for the actions of another human being who from reports appears disturbed.

    That is what I said earlier, though I have reworded it as clearly there was a problem of some kind.

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  • 189. At 10:11am on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    "Even though unlike the protesters against Arizona ilegal immigration law or WTO Group 20 protesters or Union strikers who commit violence and property damage; the Tea Party has been civilized." - Magic Kirin

    No, it hasn't. A heckler at a Tea Party rally was actually filmed being hurled to the ground and having her head stomped on by a prominent Tea Party activist. Racist and violent placards are a common sight at Tea Party rallies. The Tea Party is packed with liars claiming that Obama is not the legitimate President on the ludicrous grounds that he was not born in the USA, that he's a Marxist, a Muslim, a traitor...

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  • 190. At 10:12am on 09 Jan 2011, Tim L wrote:

    @167 "Yes there is justfication for the death penalty, it is justice and making sure no one else gets killed."

    ?! We execute someone and no one else gets killed? Then how did this tragedy happen?

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  • 191. At 10:12am on 09 Jan 2011, littletenter wrote:

    When you preserve a lawful right to bear arms and tens of thousands of people simply go shopping with a gun in their pocket this sort of thing is likely a regular consequence. I think people bear arms for the purposes of shooting (something or someone). Tragic but there it is.

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  • 192. At 10:13am on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 193. At 10:16am on 09 Jan 2011, sensiblegrannie wrote:

    This situation is worthy of debate because it flags up the power of negative speech and potential outcomes.

    Never forget the dangerous power of charismatic people.

    How many innocent lives have been destroyed in the past, because of the rhetoric of a particular person?

    Also, never forget the motives and power of those who support such charismatic people.

    It takes the cooperation of more than one like-minded person to activate such dire consequential action.

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  • 194. At 10:17am on 09 Jan 2011, littletenter wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 195. At 10:18am on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    JMM ":I remember the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan, and was horrified at that."


    But you don't seem to remember that it had nothing to do with politics or any "political climate" and everything with a mentally ill boy who tried to impress an actress he idolized.

    BTW. H. is still locked in a mental institution]

    Just like this time a clearly mentally disturbed young man killing at random: a Democratic congresswoman, a Republican judge, a guard, two septuagenarian retirees and a 9 year old girl.

    Before being sat on by a young man who was not afraid to intervene because he had a gun too, but for a change was a stable, law-abiding Arizona citizen.

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  • 196. At 10:20am on 09 Jan 2011, richard topping wrote:

    I hold no brief for Sarah Palin but lets get something right. Her site says "take back the 20". She does NOT say "take OUT the 20"

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  • 197. At 10:23am on 09 Jan 2011, JClarkson wrote:

    #187

    "We have been executing and punishing violent criminals left and right for eternity. People still get murdered and maimed. So how is punishment and execution preventing crime?"

    Punishment is not intended to prevent crime. It's intended to provide justice, for the victim. The victim (and his/her family) has been denied a future, so will the criminal. Punishment is intended to deter crime.

    Again, I refer you to the dictionary, compare the definitions of "prevent" and "deter".

    If the distinction is too subtle, consider this analogy. A seat belt is intended to prevent serious injury, in case of an accident. Does it always succeed? No, not always. A car alarm is intended to deter someone from breaking into your car. Does it always succeed at that task? No, not always. People still get seriously injured or killed in accidents and cars still get stolen.


    Therefore, they are both useless, right? Do you see now why your argument is silly?

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  • 198. At 10:25am on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    Here's a quote from Gabrielle Giffords, in an MSNBC interview during the mid-terms:

    "We're on Sarah Palin's targeted list, but the thing is, that the way that she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they have to realize that there are consequences to that action,"

    Palin refused to remove the graphic from her website, even after the elction. She did so yesterday. Now if it was so innocent, why did she do that?

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  • 199. At 10:26am on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Andrea: "What if you find the shooter is a liberal who didn't like moderates? Mental illness crosses party lines."


    At least two very leftist posters, promulgating reverse racism btw., in one of the blogs stated (independently of each other) that they were afraid to post on BBC for " I'm sure CIA is constantly watching me".

    So, yes, you're right.

    Even tin-foil hats won't help some.

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  • 200. At 10:27am on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    "Just like this time a clearly mentally disturbed young man killing at random" - powermeerkat

    Don't be so silly; of course it was not "at random": that would be opening fire in a street, supermarket or airport lounge.

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  • 201. At 10:29am on 09 Jan 2011, american grizzly wrote:

    So let me get this straight, now they blame Palin (Palin doesn't excite me, just another voice no different than the rest.) Just this scapegoating of both sides is normal. I suppose with that logic, all the terrorist acts done to each country is the victims fault because of political ads? Or is the real problem in a country in chaos and in a downward spiral, propped up by a two party system that is corrupt beyond belief? This was a violent act by an individual (at least in this stage of investigation) in this case. A loner without any real support with problems.

    Where Muslim terrorist attacks are done to numerous countries, are well funded, well planned, and supported from within by Muslims; or given tact approval by silence or criticism of the radicals within said community. I think you won't find it in this case. I doubt they will be building a Mosque for this individual. But the double standard is always there like ACORN. Reverend Wright, Hugo Chavez, and they all so have followers.....Maybe Mark will write a blog that ties this in to a neat package, but I doubt it....

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  • 202. At 10:29am on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    JClarkson quotes:
    #105

    "An angry person without a gun can't kill anyone."



    Is that why people are not allowed to put manicure sets or kebab shishes in their carry-on luggage? ;-)



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  • 203. At 10:29am on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    "Well only one or some portion of the personalities inside a paranoid schizoid" - NameAgain

    You've no idea what you're talking about: schizophrenia has nothing whatever to do with the alleged phenomenon of multiple personality.

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  • 204. At 10:29am on 09 Jan 2011, Jeggy wrote:

    Though this is a tragic event - why is this prominant in BRITISH news? There are other things we should be debating about.

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  • 205. At 10:31am on 09 Jan 2011, bobbgooduk wrote:

    Isn't this exactly what everyone has been expecting to happen? From its very inception, the United States of America has been a bundle of contradictions waiting to explode:

    All men are equal etc - and yet George Washington himself was a slave-owner i.e. all white men are equal, but even that is not true.

    In God we trust - and yet freedom to believe or not believe is supposed to be a fundamental. The Christian conservatives exercise an influence well beyond their mere liberty and freedom of worship.


    The right to bear arms - what on earth does anyone need an automatic weapon for. Self-defence against what, precisely?

    We could go into a lot more detail, but my intention is not to slate the US yet again. My opinion, however, is that the attack yesterday was born out of political immoderation. Democracy is a process of informed debate, decision making and voting. It is not a process (or should not be a process) involving chimps' tea parties and the deliberate undermining of the will of the electorate. If you are going to pretend to operate a democratic system, then you have to accept that there will be winners and losers. The American people (or at least a majority) elected Obama to lead the country towards a different future than than envisaged by the Republicans. Rather than helping clear up the mess left by Bush, the Republicans have put their own partisan interests before the good of their country AND before the clear will of the people.

    The fact that Sarah Palin can operate with target lists AND a motto of "Don't retreat, reload" speaks volumes for her lack of integrity and her complete disregard for the democracy she pretends to support.

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  • 206. At 10:31am on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    "Here we go - so the Left here and in the US will now be demanding that only political stances, arguments and themes on their "approved list" can be used and discussed." -FrankFisher

    Er, what?? Who has suggested anything of the kind? You're clearly living in your own little world, Mr. Fisher.

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  • 207. At 10:31am on 09 Jan 2011, kitj wrote:

    I am truly appalled at the nasty, point scoring comments here. People are dead, others still in danger and all most can do is try to be as vindictive as they can. Shame on you all, were is the soul of humanity that we all are supposed to possess. How would you feel if this was your spouse, child, parent who had been hurt so!

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  • 208. At 10:32am on 09 Jan 2011, Bill Walker wrote:

    Americans are always harping on about their "democracy" but seem to have forgotten about one of the major building blocks of that state, as exemplified by the French statesman Voltaire, who told an opponent "I disagree with everything that you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". The spirit of Joseph Mccarthy still haunts America.

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  • 209. At 10:33am on 09 Jan 2011, american grizzly wrote:

    Besides you don't need a gun to be a terrorist, just board a plane, or enter a metro subway, or park a car in a lot. Overreaction as usual.

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  • 210. At 10:35am on 09 Jan 2011, moreram wrote:

    Condolences to the families. I wonder if it would have happened if the US had the same gun laws as the UK or Canada.

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  • 211. At 10:40am on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    jamesg1103 wrote:
    "Here's a comment left on a well-known American left-wing forum on Thursday, two days before the shooting. The poster is obviously a left winger; no right winger would object to a representative's vote against Nancy Pelosi.

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    If you're pressed for time the comment begins as follows "My CongressWOMAN voted against Nancy Pelosi! And is now DEAD to me!" (Caps in the original)"







    It it true that Gabby Giffords objected to Nancy Pelosi becoming a Minority Leader and it is also true that she (and about two dozens of other moderate "blue-dog" Democrats) voted against her.



    Infuriating quite a few extreme leftists.

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  • 212. At 10:46am on 09 Jan 2011, richardjackson99 wrote:

    You deliver vitreolic speeches, you stir up intolerence of those who hold the opposite view. Those who have delivered intemperate messages, either verbally or by using "cross hairs" as icons, should look inwardly to see if they should shoulder some of the blame.
    Yes, only one man pulled the trigger, but who planted the thoughts in his head. You can never legislate for a lone zealot, you can curb inflammatory pronouncements and actions that might be interpreted too literally by the deluded.

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  • 213. At 10:50am on 09 Jan 2011, kitj wrote:

    I am shocked at the level of nastiness here - people are dead, dying and seriously injured, it would appear that the spirit and soul that is the core of humanity has been lost. Shame on you all, how would you feel if those were your parent, spouse or child. The whole circus that this has become is distasteful and inappropriate. Please could this stop.

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  • 214. At 10:50am on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    "You [U.S] stole half a continent from its previous inhabitants. Then there was a very considerably chunk of Mexico. Oh, and Hawaii."




    In case the above was written seriously:

    Well, Mexico is a PART of North American continent.

    Another part of that continent is CANADA.

    And what U.S. is today was then partly BRITISH, partly FRENCH and partly SPANISH colonies. [Manhattan was 'stolen' by the Dutch.]

    [I'll skip the Hawaii part for I might get hernia from laughter]


    BTW. "Previous inhabitants" are still here, thank you very much.

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  • 215. At 10:54am on 09 Jan 2011, John_from_Hendon wrote:

    Has the USA joined the list of failing states dominated by extremists? (like Somalia for example)

    I guess the answer is unfortunately - yes.

    Why: the media (and politicians) has a lot to answer for as do the NRA (National Rifle Association). You cannot have radio dominated by rabid shock-jocks and expect a mutually respectful society to flourish for long. The apparent perpetrator sounds like a lunatic, but there are so many in the USA now encourage by the Tea Party etc. I agree with the local Sheriff's view that this is all down to the rise in extremism in the USA and frankly I only see a downward path under the present congress.

    The only way the rest of the World can put pressure on the USA is for travellers not to visit, until it puts its house in order and bans the owning of all firearms and weapons by its citizens and only permits the sporting use of guns that are held in the local police station/sheriff's office and specifically withdrawn on each occasion (farmers and shotguns might have to exempt) certainly no handguns nor automatic weapons.

    The rabid media also need prosecuting on the basis of incitement to violence and hatred.

    These uncivilised lunatics need to be shown that their country is fast becoming a pariah state and that the rest of the World expect that they grow up and sort themselves out!

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  • 216. At 10:55am on 09 Jan 2011, american grizzly wrote:

    All men are created equal, created.
    "The right to bear arms - what on earth does anyone need an automatic weapon for. Self-defence against what, precisely?" bobbgooduk wrote:
    Barack Obama was elected by the electoral college, and only about 51% of the American population vote, so Obama got a little over 25% to get elected popularity wise that is.

    You have to have a class III federal license to own an automatic weapon. They are limited and mostly unavailable to ordinary citizens. Basically your wrong. By the way Americas Top Shot is a former UK citizen. I know British law forbids legal citizens from owning most guns. But then criminals do what they want.

    Try watching National Geographic Lockdown, about US criminals. The two biggest gangs in prison are the Northern, and Southern Mexican gangs, but there are also Black and white gangs. Try getting some facts, this stuff happens in prison. The FBI linked quite a number of murders outside of prison having been directed from gang leaders in prison.

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  • 217. At 10:57am on 09 Jan 2011, Lord Rant wrote:

    What a terrible tragedy .. !!!
    My thoughts are with the families of the victims .I appeal to other HYS users not to write trivial or offensive comments .
    I know that most will respect the victims families at this moment in time

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  • 218. At 10:58am on 09 Jan 2011, Brainwashing the masses wrote:

    "tell me what country that the united states went to war with and now belongs to the usa"
    Nooooooo
    The USofA takes over it's allies .... I thought the UK was part of the USofA

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  • 219. At 11:00am on 09 Jan 2011, Imatroll99 wrote:

    The wild wild west! The fact that guns feature so highly in US culture tells us that tragedies like this will be ongoing.

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  • 220. At 11:01am on 09 Jan 2011, beanie bingbong wrote:

    Good comment, PZipu.....
    But what America needs more than anything is to get rid of the guns.......by having really tough gun laws as in the UK. In 2009 about 10,000 people died of gunshot wounds in America. In 2001, year of twin towers, there were nearly 30,000.

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  • 221. At 11:03am on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Andrea: "What if you find the shooter is a liberal who didn't like moderates?"




    I also recall that Charles Manson gang members who managed to slaughter quite a few people (including heavily pregnant Sharon Tate) with knives were hippy "flower power" peaceniks.

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  • 222. At 11:04am on 09 Jan 2011, Tim L wrote:

    @197 "Punishment is not intended to prevent crime. It's intended to provide justice, for the victim. The victim (and his/her family) has been denied a future, so will the criminal. Punishment is intended to deter crime.

    Again, I refer you to the dictionary, compare the definitions of "prevent" and 'deter'."

    "If the distinction is too subtle, consider this analogy. A seat belt is intended to prevent serious injury, in case of an accident. Does it always succeed? No, not always. A car alarm is intended to deter someone from breaking into your car. Does it always succeed at that task? No, not always. People still get seriously injured or killed in accidents and cars still get stolen.


    Therefore, they are both useless, right? Do you see now why your argument is silly?"

    You're analogies are far removed from the discussion at hand, now that is silly. Neither relates to punishment. Do you think people who murder are unaware of punishment? Do you think they care about justice? If punishment is meant as a deterrent it is an abysmal failure.

    As far as justice, the victim is dead. How can he/she be provided justice? (They can't, they are dead). As to his/her family how does punishment provide justice? The family gets to do nothing. The criminal is now in the hands of the state. What would the families of those who were killed consider justice? The incarceration or execution of the (one) criminal in the hands of the state?

    Justice has already been lost in the act of the crime. Done.
    Might the grieving families not wonder "How could this happen? Why? Why did this happen?" That is what is on their minds. And if we want justice those are the questions whose answers we should seek.

    No man is an island, so let's work to stop breeding violence.

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  • 223. At 11:05am on 09 Jan 2011, DHL2010 wrote:

    Sad to say Mark, your final comment about the "febrile nature" of American politics is fully borne out when you read through many of the comments written here.

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  • 224. At 11:05am on 09 Jan 2011, LaAntena wrote:

    This is a local American news story why such heavy coverage on this side of the pond? Whilst it is serious for her family, her party and her country it is not of international significance. This is not a Franz Ferdinand or even a Benazir Bhutto moment. I feel in the UK this story is being over covered so that a less politically correct subject does not have to be discussed this weekend such as Jack Straw's comments and the predictable Keith Vaz response.

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  • 225. At 11:07am on 09 Jan 2011, EnglishTeaparty wrote:

    This is regrettably not a one off. Such things happen in the USA with an obscene regularity. I regret it will remain a feature of US life where gun owning is a constitutional right and the authorities seemingly have little way of prevent the mental disturbed or political extremists buying weapons.

    By way of coincidence I have just finished reading an American written US history and note that blacks were regularly lynched until the 1930's and many hotels 'regulated' meaning no jews until the late 1940's. Civil Rights didn't come along until the1960's. With so much violence and hatred within their recent past is it any wonder such things happen in the USA? It is debatable whether the US is a unified nation apart from it's international posture. The geographical, state's rights, social & political divide is enormous and polarised.

    By the by this isn't a left wing criticism. I'm right of centre and both love & admire the USA. However, we have to be honest and accept it has a very dark side.

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  • 226. At 11:08am on 09 Jan 2011, sledger10 wrote:

    Once again the US is plagued by it's ridiculous gun laws!!
    You can ask the question about a total lack of security and why a maniac was allowed to get anywhere near these people without being checked?
    Palin's comments should surely put paid to any future political career - not that she ever had one!
    I have never witnessed anything like this in my lifetime - it's appalling.
    America should ensure these people get their ultimate penalty!

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  • 228. At 11:14am on 09 Jan 2011, Adiemus wrote:

    #171 et al

    Yes, the moderation here does seem a tad heavy-handed at the moment. And inconsistent, if my own deletion is anything to go by!

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  • 229. At 11:14am on 09 Jan 2011, JackMaxDaniels wrote:

    I find it ironic that one politician has been seriously injured and we see all this quite frankly ridiculous debate about hate etc.

    How many people have died needlessly while already very rich people make billions and pay no tax ?

    Well politicians have created a climate where they do not serve the public, double deal, out right lie, commit fraud, favour the rich and punish the poor.

    Did they seriously expect people not to react ?

    Islamic fundamentalists have gained huge political power for minorities with policies daily being implemented to appease their communities wants and needs - at the expense of the poor majority again.

    We see Bankers and Billionares salting away billions in tax havens while the poor have to pay more and more tax.

    This whole debate is totally disfunctional and totally dodges the issues that will continue to drive unrest.

    It's almost amusing to see how the Biased Broadcasting Corporation daily avoids critical issues and publishes bland none news and debates - even if there are debates quite frankly what is the point of them ? Nothing ever gets changed and whenever the government is efficiently challenged the media is castrated further.

    I remember over 1 million people marching on the countryside alliance protests.
    I remember over 1 million people marching about the war in Iraq.

    I remember trillions of debt being foisted on the public as house prices kept increasing with crippling interest payments in year 5 - designed to repossess some poor persons house ? Win/win for the bank or so they thought. Yet even when it failed they won by the public picking up their mistakes.

    I remember government spending trillions on their pet projects with their mates and family.

    Where is the justice in politics ?

    The politicians did nothing, they ignored everything and took everything they could get their hands on.

    I don't condone this attack but quite frankly I'm surprised there haven't been far more.

    Reap the rewards of your own stupidity and greed.

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  • 230. At 11:18am on 09 Jan 2011, abolishtaxes wrote:

    The problem here is that WHITE males are crazy murderers going around shooting innocent people. This appears to be common place with WHITE males, especially in the US, but in other countries too (that coward raul moat in the UK etc.). Now is the time to stereotype this class of people, all WHITE males should be stopped and searched and criminalised.

    I want you people to think about this carefully, not just discard my statement. What do you think would have been the reaction if a black male had carried out this cowardly murderous act??? Well the entire race would be scrutinised and demonised. The US would probably invade some poor african country as a result too and steal their resources, hehe.

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  • 231. At 11:18am on 09 Jan 2011, Argent Pur wrote:

    205. At 10:31am on 09 Jan 2011, bobbgooduk wrote:

    ....The right to bear arms - what on earth does anyone need an automatic weapon for. Self-defence against what, precisely?

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Self defense against all the other people bearing arms. Unfortunately the US has gone so far with gun ownership that trying to ban them now would be futile.

    Criminals by their very nature do not abide by the law, so would ignore a law making gun ownership illegal. If everyone else handed in their guns then it would just leave guns in the hands of all criminals and a massive crime wave would ensue. Crime always goes up in a recession and as the US economy sinks even further people will get more desperate. The only thing stopping a crime wave is the criminals fear of being shot by the people they are trying to rob.

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  • 232. At 11:19am on 09 Jan 2011, northwold wrote:

    We have read a lot about grooming of teenage girls. Here I suspect we have a case of the grooming of a psychologically labile individual. Jared Loughner may have pulled the trigger but he was in all probability just a tool. A tool of sinister forces unhappy with the direction US politics is taking. I would go further and say that even Sarah Palin is being groomed.
    There can be no more obvious attack on democracy than attempting to assassinate an elected representative when she is trying to interface with her constituents. I do hope Gabrielle Giffords pulls through and that the FBI manages to peel the onion and let the bright light of publicity into the dark recesses of this conspiracy. These kinds of things happen from time to time and are very difficult to get to the bottom of. Take, for instance, the assassination of Swedish Prime Minister Olof Palme in 1986. Lets hope the FBI are more successful than the Swedish police were back in 1986!

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  • 233. At 11:19am on 09 Jan 2011, BeachyHed wrote:

    Upon reading such news I used to say to "only in America" ... sadly this now happens in the UK as well. When nations embark on occupying and dismantling other sovereign states (as has happened to 2 nations since 2001), coldly snuffing out the lives of ordinary people, then there will always be consequences. The biggest consequence for the US and UK has been the creation of toxic consciousness - what happened to this poor lady is an example of 'what goes around comes around' (aka collective KARMA).

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  • 234. At 11:20am on 09 Jan 2011, JackMaxDaniels wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 235. At 11:20am on 09 Jan 2011, forclarification wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 236. At 11:21am on 09 Jan 2011, squeezy wrote:

    Sad state of the US today. The current gun laws make this happen far too easily. And the US focuses on other countries for terrorism rather than looking in their own back yard. Was this a republican plot against the democrats?

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  • 237. At 11:21am on 09 Jan 2011, HappyILeft wrote:

    americans want guns and they have little concern for those on the bottom rungs of life's ladder, more tragedy like this is very likely in the future. most sad is that they do not have the collective wisdom to see their own downward spiral. it is in full motion.

    HappyILeft

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  • 238. At 11:21am on 09 Jan 2011, forclarification wrote:

    213. At 10:50am on 09 Jan 2011, kitj wrote:
    I am shocked at the level of nastiness here - people are dead, dying and seriously injured, it would appear that the spirit and soul that is the core of humanity has been lost. Shame on you all, how would you feel if those were your parent, spouse or child. The whole circus that this has become is distasteful and inappropriate. Please could this stop.
    ====================================================
    Tell the Democrats and the Left. Couldn't blame Palin quickly enough

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  • 239. At 11:23am on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Yes, only one man pulled the trigger, but who planted the thoughts in his head"



    Many metally disurbed people believe micro- transmiters were surrepticiously implanted in their brain and that's why they hear voices which tell them to do awfuf things.



    An re "he didn't shoot at random"...


    So Jared Loughner actually pointed and intentionally shot a Republican judge and a 9-year old girl (of unknown political sympathies), as well as two septuagenarian retiries (also of unknown political afilliations), among others?

    And if he came to specifically assassinate congreswoman Giffords why did he have (besides a knife) 3 EXTRA long clips in his pocket?

    [he was in a process of loading the second clip when he was jumped.]

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  • 240. At 11:24am on 09 Jan 2011, forclarification wrote:

    204. At 10:29am on 09 Jan 2011, Jeggy wrote:
    Though this is a tragic event - why is this prominant in BRITISH news? There are other things we should be debating about.
    ===========================================
    To enable all the leftie anti-Americans on here to spout off their usual trash

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  • 241. At 11:27am on 09 Jan 2011, forclarification wrote:

    194. At 10:17am on 09 Jan 2011, littletenter wrote:
    168. At 09:33am on 09 Jan 2011, Emzdad wrote:
    Off Topic, but wheres the HYS on the grooming of teenage girls by muslim men?

    ===================================================
    Interesting. I recently got an off topic removed (but it was BBC critical)becuase of the restricted forum. You get one posted, well done. Pull this post then just to show there is no consistency in the rules either !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    ====================================================
    Chances of 'Emzdad's' topic appearing? Zero

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  • 242. At 11:32am on 09 Jan 2011, forclarification wrote:

    105. At 03:43am on 09 Jan 2011, Martin wrote:
    NRA Slogan: "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"
    What utter rubbish. You Americans just don't get it, do you. An angry person without a gun can't kill anyone.
    =============================================
    What utter rubbish. So 100% of all murders are gun related?

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  • 243. At 11:33am on 09 Jan 2011, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #215
    John_from_Hendon wrote:
    Has the USA joined the list of failing states dominated by extremists? (like Somalia for example)

    I guess the answer is unfortunately - yes.

    Why: the media (and politicians) has a lot to answer for as do the NRA (National Rifle Association). You cannot have radio dominated by rabid shock-jocks and expect a mutually respectful society to flourish for long. The apparent perpetrator sounds like a lunatic, but there are so many in the USA now encourage by the Tea Party etc. I agree with the local Sheriff's view that this is all down to the rise in extremism in the USA and frankly I only see a downward path under the present congress.

    The only way the rest of the World can put pressure on the USA is for travellers not to visit, until it puts its house in order and bans the owning of all firearms and weapons by its citizens and only permits the sporting use of guns that are held in the local police station/sheriff's office and specifically withdrawn on each occasion (farmers and shotguns might have to exempt) certainly no handguns nor automatic weapons.

    The rabid media also need prosecuting on the basis of incitement to violence and hatred.

    These uncivilised lunatics need to be shown that their country is fast becoming a pariah state and that the rest of the World expect that they grow up and sort themselves out!

    ______________

    This is an example of U.S bashing to the extremedespite the u.S being one of the most progressive nations in thweworld.

    A few days ago in Arcapulco 15 bodies were left in a shopping mall by a drug cartel

    In Venezuela and Bolivia those leftish paradises regular beatings abd phony arrests of political oppnents

    violent riots in Greece over austerity measure

    riots by public workers and student in France over austerity measure

    intolerance of views in most islamic countries lately a liberla govenor in Pakistan and the bombing ogf a coptic church in England

    yes you point out a disturbed man, I don't recall when Hinckley tried to kill Regan the right accusing the left of being responsible.

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  • 244. At 11:35am on 09 Jan 2011, Billy The Bull wrote:

    American politics and democracy are showing dangerous signs of instability which is very worrying. "For eveil to flourish good men and women have only to say and do nothing"!

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  • 245. At 11:37am on 09 Jan 2011, forclarification wrote:

    159. At 09:23am on 09 Jan 2011, Icebloo wrote:
    Rupert Murdoch and a few other right wing extremist billionaires are funding the Tea Party despite the Tea Party's claims that they are poor, grassroots people. The Tories in the UK are just about to hand over a huge part of the UK media to Murdoch so expect the same kind of hate and lies to be promoted in the UK through Murdoch's evil media machine.
    =========================================
    Nice one Icebloo, I was waiting for the Murdoch link to a shooting in Arizona. The real question is where was Maggie T when the shootings occurred?

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  • 246. At 11:38am on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    [US government should] "only permits the sporting use of guns that are held in the local police station/sheriff's office and specifically withdrawn on each occasion (farmers and shotguns might have to exempt) certainly no handguns nor automatic weapons."




    I wonder how would citizens of Switzerland (who keep their military rifles, and only them, at home) react to such a dictum.

    Not to mention Israel.


    BTW. In case somebody doesn't remember how USA came to be...

    A process of liberating Americans from a yoke of their then opresssive government began with the Tea Party. :-)))

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  • 247. At 11:39am on 09 Jan 2011, forclarification wrote:

    166. At 09:32am on 09 Jan 2011, Icebloo wrote:
    When left wingers want someone out of office they generally use the ballot box. When right wingers want someone out of office they assassinate them - there is a long history of it in the US. It seems the right wingers claim they believe in democracy and hail the US as the best democracy in the world UNTIL the left wing are voted in and then the right wingers forget democracy and head for the streets with guns.
    ================================================
    Utter tosh

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  • 248. At 11:39am on 09 Jan 2011, Rabbitkiller wrote:

    In any society there will occasionally be some crazy person willing to go out and kill people, for whatever reason. The motive is probably irrelevant, it's more to do with a warped mind. Thankfully it's very rare, but it can and does happen in any society, any country, sometimes with guns, or crossbows, knives, poison, explosives, gas or whatever.

    Let's not have the usual 'what do you expect in America, their gun culture', etc. These things have happened in the UK, France, Germany, Norway, Japan, Russia, .... Even where guns are illegal it's possible for madmen to get hold of them.
    We used to lock up people with lunatic tendencies, now we seem happy to take the risk, however small, of them killing us.

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  • 249. At 11:40am on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    "Well, Mexico is a PART of North American continent.

    Another part of that continent is CANADA.

    And what U.S. is today was then partly BRITISH, partly FRENCH and partly SPANISH colonies. [Manhattan was 'stolen' by the Dutch.]

    [I'll skip the Hawaii part for I might get hernia from laughter]"
    - powermeerkat

    Yss, Mexico is part of North America, but before stealing a chunk of Mexico in the 1840s, the USA had already stolen a large chunk of the continent from Native Americans, committing numerous acts of genocide in the process. This continued through the 19th century. It is true much of the land had been claimed by Britain, France or Spain, but it was the USA that actually dispossessed the great majority of the Native Americans who lived there; and a large chunk of the west had not been claimed by any European state before its conquest by the USA. Hawaii was an independent kingdom until American settlers first overthrew the monarchy in 1893, then got it annexed by the USA in 1898. In 1993, a joint Apology Resolution regarding the overthrow was passed by Congress and signed by President Clinton, apologizing for the overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom.

    I suggest you learn a little of the real history of the USA, powermeerkat - not the sanitised nonsense you'll have been taught at school.

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  • 250. At 11:40am on 09 Jan 2011, forclarification wrote:

    173. At 09:43am on 09 Jan 2011, autolycan wrote:
    The difference between the assasination rhetoric of the Palin Camp and Osama bin Laden is what, exactly?
    =========================================================
    What a shallow and ignorant comment

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  • 251. At 11:41am on 09 Jan 2011, kitj wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 252. At 11:45am on 09 Jan 2011, Maria Ashot wrote:

    One of the likeliest consequences of this atrocity is the re-election of President Obama in 2012, now much more certain to happen.

    The "Tea Party Movement" is bound to fracture as the more moderate ones go back to their former political affiliations, or establish new ones, feeling duped by the extremists that have contributed to the utterly unhinged & inexcusable, irresponsible torrent of invective that culminates in outright calls for violent "revolution."

    A number of broadcasters will lose their contracts as fewer people are willing to watch, listen or read their product.

    I fully endorse and identify with the declaration of Sheriff Dupnik, and in particular lament the loss of Judge Roll, who sounds like an exemplary jurist. And of course, we are all in agony over the condition of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords.

    More and more this sounds like a hate crime in which a dangerous young man with violent impulses has been manipulated by some shady extremists. The fact that a young woman politician was targeted is not insignificant. There is very little difference between the fundamentalist zealots who target someone like Gabrielle Giffords and the fundamentalist zealots who target someone like Benazir Bhutto.

    Being a woman puts one at higher risk in politics. And I urge all women in politics, the world over, to review and improve their security measures. Needless to say, President Obama's security will also now be tightened even more. So should Nancy Pelosi's be. So should those of other prominent women in government.

    I would venture to speculate that Sarah Palin is now automatically eliminated from your list of potential 2012 candidates, Mr Mardell. Her show will be shut down. She could also be charged under incitement and hate speech statutes. I would personally support that.

    We punished Enron executives for abuses that did not actually lead to demonstrable loss of life. I would say using crosshairs in political "advertising" (actually, propaganda and materials meant to stir up revolution, according to some of the junk I have made a point of reading this past year) constitutes outright hate speech and a summons to inflict bodily harm. Why shouldn't the authors who promote these ideas, and the politicians who hire them, be called to account before the law for their hate speech? Isn't that why political ads in America carry the sign-off, "Approved and Paid for By Candidate Thusandso"?

    Finally, let us consider the dangerous intersection of collapsing public education, lack of adequate limits on access to firearms, and the obviously insufficient application of mental health interventions with known disturbed subjects.

    If anything, this case demonstrates that there is a very basic need for dramatic health care reforms in America: we keep hearing about lunatics and psychotics getting hold of a weapon and ruining scores of lives in one fell swoop. Even in Pentagon-run facilities, an obviously dangerous man was allowed to practice psychiatry even as he plotted mayhem, and was able to act out his deep hatred of his own enabling employer to carry out the Fort Hood shooting in the name of Allah & Mohammed. This simple fact, now followed by the Arizona tragedy, reveals a staggering flaw in the way the American system views mental illness and fails to apply proactive interventions to keep dangerous people away from weapons and the public.

    One of the most robust components needed in the new health care system America needs to re-engineer is a thorough mental health screening for people who interact extensively with large numbers of others. That would include students. And we should lock up anyone who actually exhibits the capacity to perpetrate an atrocity, or makes excuses for others who do.

    The Reagan roll-back on mental health care in the US was a tragedy in and of itself. And time to reverse course on it. The violently motivated mentally unstable sorts of people need to be institutionalised. Enough of this passivity in the face of extreme threats!



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  • 253. At 11:45am on 09 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    wolfvorkian, (#109. At 03:52am on 09 Jan 2011)

    ”... You surely don't need more time to decide whether the violent rhetoric and metaphors used by demagogues like Palin, Savage, Beck, etc. encourage the fruitcakes to take violent actions like we saw today, do you? Sick talk leads to sick actions.”
    Many events follow sequential patterns without being causally related. The post hoc ergo propter hoc (after this therefore because of this) fallacy is based upon the mistaken notion that simply because one thing happens after another, the first event was a cause of the second event. Post hoc reasoning is the basis for many superstitions and erroneous beliefs.

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  • 254. At 11:51am on 09 Jan 2011, whisper wrote:

    I hope this is in the rules but I think this comment bears repeating. I am not able to put it anymore eloquently than this:

    25. At 10:32pm on 08 Jan 2011, John Fig wrote:

    Mark, somehow many people here seem to think that their problems and concerns are uniquely important or pressing. Of course, while they may be serious is some cases, in general they are not. I'm sure we can name people and circumstances all over the world that are far more so. But that impression, fueled by careless and irresponsible political rhetoric in government and the media, feeds their sense of entitlement, oppression or overstated outrage. This is a large country with all sorts of people, some--yes--to one degree or other unhinged. For that reason alone, as well as the fact that our culture of personal freedom dictates a relaxed attitude toward firearms ownership, rather than ginning up that rhetoric for political and--worse--financial gain, public figures in the media and government ought to intentionally tone down their remarks and hew to a far more sober form of discourse. Of course, just saying that brings out an element that claims any such advice is an attempt to tread on another's freedom. But freedom without a concomitant sense of responsibility is license, not freedom. The latter--which they mistakenly call freedom-- is what some people are really advocating here. And it sometimes produces the kind of thing that happened today in Arizona. In my view, it's a price not worth paying. Self-control is also a form of freedom.

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  • 255. At 11:52am on 09 Jan 2011, Stephen Ogley wrote:

    We in the UK need to know that American political violence will not spill over into US foreign policy so that we are not trapped in an ever more violent world.

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  • 256. At 11:54am on 09 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    highfieldhome, (#116. At 04:35am on 09 Jan 2011)

    "The United States is an evil entity ..."
    Calm, dispassionate, moderate rhetoric will always help.

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  • 257. At 11:59am on 09 Jan 2011, kitj wrote:

    I will not be making any further comments here, My only further comment was to suggest to other posters that this incident was not about individuals and the capacity to hijack others personal pain for their own self gratification.

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  • 258. At 12:01pm on 09 Jan 2011, john wrote:

    I haven quite worked out the connection with this shooting by a nut case and Sarah Palin. I think a few of the commentators who appear to have a phobia need to get a life. 'Then again George Bush did knock down the levies!!!!

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  • 259. At 12:08pm on 09 Jan 2011, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #248

    rabbitkiller;

    "Let's not have the usual 'what do you expect in America, their gun culture', etc. These things have happened in the UK, France, Germany, Norway, Japan, Russia, .... Even where guns are illegal it's possible for madmen to get hold of them."

    I agree these massacres can happen anywhere. But when you see that the US, Switzerland and Finland have the highest gun accident/suicide/homicide rates in the developed world, and then you correlate that with their respective gun laws and gun ownership, the patterns are as clear as day. Almost linear in fact.

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  • 260. At 12:10pm on 09 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    Oldloadr, (#144. At 07:55am on 09 Jan 2011)

    "... Since he killed a 9 year old girl, his chances of surviving in a Big House’s general population are 2: slim and none."
    Slim was released on parole yesterday.

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  • 261. At 12:10pm on 09 Jan 2011, john wrote:

    KG , I liked you US history lesson. You forgott the British Empire lession. Plundering, stealing ,slavery, over 2/3 of the known world.

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  • 262. At 12:11pm on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    powermeerkat,

    Congresswoman Giffords was his first victim, shot in the head at close range. Clearly, he did intend to kill as many as possible, but this was not random. Insane, yes, but not random. Apparently you don't understand that word any more than you do the history of the USA.

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  • 263. At 12:11pm on 09 Jan 2011, logica_sine_vanitate wrote:

    John_from_Hendon (@ 215) -

    "Has the USA joined the list of failing states dominated by extremists? (like Somalia for example) ... I guess the answer is unfortunately - yes."

    C'mon, John, that comment is utterly ridiculous, if you really think about it.

    To compare the USA with Somalia betrays a pitiful lack of understanding of both countries. What's the tourist trade like in Mogadishu, for example?

    I am not an American (I am British), and there are indeed some views within the USA at the moment that I dislike (for instance, the attitude of equating universal health care provision with the slippery slope to totalitarian socialism, which is completely barmy), but there is absolutely no way that that country can be compared with Somalia or other trouble spots in the world.

    If I had a choice between living in Tucson, Arizona, on the one hand, and Mogadishu or, let's say, Tehran, Baghdad or Bogota (or even Acapulco), on the other, I know what my choice would be. It is, as they say, a 'no brainer'.

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  • 264. At 12:15pm on 09 Jan 2011, Argent Pur wrote:

    246. At 11:38am on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    BTW. In case somebody doesn't remember how USA came to be...

    A process of liberating Americans from a yoke of their then opresssive government began with the Tea Party. :-)))

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    I think you will find the oppressive government was the British government. Throughout American history the British have imposed their tax and banking regime on the Americans. It is now ironic that once the Americans finally lost their multiple fights against the Central Banking system that 100 years later the British and the world are now paying the price.
    It is the divide between rich and poor that starts civil wars and there is no reason to think it won't happen again.

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  • 265. At 12:15pm on 09 Jan 2011, WhatsThis wrote:

    Why all the news and fuss about this.
    While you have The Second Amendment, you are going to have gun violence anywhere, anytime.

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  • 266. At 12:15pm on 09 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    Tim L, (#149. At 08:32am on 09 Jan 2011)

    ”... We can however change the future by working towards understanding the roots of violence and removing the "seeds" in our society that sow violence. The individual is not shaped by himself, he is shaped by his environment, both (though mostly) immediate and remote.

    We all have a role in this because our actions, interests, and beliefs shape society every moment.”

    This one’s easy. All we must do is change the U.S. so that it is like one of the societies were there is no violence.

    Which society do you offer as the one to emulate?

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  • 267. At 12:16pm on 09 Jan 2011, John wrote:

    In my experience Americans are warm and welcoming people. Quite what goes wrong when they become defensive about the right to bear arms, whatever its consequences, and hysterical about health reforms that any sensible person can see to be needed is beyond all logic.

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  • 268. At 12:17pm on 09 Jan 2011, qwerty wrote:

    "Palin refused to remove the graphic from her website, even after the elction. She did so yesterday. Now if it was so innocent, why did she do that?" KG 198

    Because it would have been incredibly insensitive to leave it up after what happened. That doesn't mean she is responsible in the first place.

    I don't like the way politics has become very personal and very nasty, especially in the United States, but the way the democrats and the left have jumped on this dreadful situation to deflame Sarah Palin is just as bad as the type of rhetoric Mrs Palin herself uses.

    My sincere condolences to the families and friends of all the victims, and lets leave the politics out of this.

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  • 269. At 12:17pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    EnglishTeaParty wrote:

    It is debatable whether the US is a unified nation apart from it's international posture. The geographical, state's rights, social & political divide is enormous and polarised.




    Everything is debatable. But if you compare United States with European Disunion (everybody for himself these days, it seems) which dosn't even have a common air traffic control system, let alone common foreign policy [forget defense]...:-)))


    BTW Those who write about 'febrile nature' of American politics have obviously never seen massive and often violent street demontrations and protests in many a EU country against one or another planned initiative or reform (cf. France, Greece, Spain, even UK recently, etc.]

    Or fist fights and regular brawls in many a European parliament.


    Or haven't read hundreds of very angry, often extreme comments both in HYS and in Gavin Hewitt's European blog regarding membership or withdrawl from EU or bail-outs of euro.

    And, finally, I've never read such vicious, hateful comments about, say, pres. Obama, as many British subjects wrote about PM Gordon Brown and even more so - Tony Blair.

    [yes, some were even pointing out that neither of them was English. :-)]

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  • 270. At 12:18pm on 09 Jan 2011, carryongooner wrote:

    I was shocked by the news of this massacre but not totally surprised. I'm afraid that, as has been pointed out by many posters, when access to guns is as easy as it appears to be in the US these incidents are going to happen.

    What I find even more shocking is the political capital that various parties/people seem to want to make out of it and the rabid and vitriolic comments being made by posters on here. Quite how immigration, the BBC, laws in Ireland and various other totally irrelevant matters have been dragged in is baffling.

    This whole tragic incident does, however, seem to have fully revealed the simmering hatred and bigotry that exists in certain areas of the US. I thought that Sherriff Dupnik's words in that regard were very interesting and telling.

    I am sure the vast majority of Americans are moderate, reasonable people and perhaps its time that they made their voices heard and sought to bring some level headedness to US politics. The "silent" majority can be heard, and peacefully too, you only have to look at Cory Aquino (my apologies for the spelling!) in the Phillipines or Ghandi in India who brought about huge political change harnessing the non-violent power of the ordinary man and woman in the street.

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  • 271. At 12:19pm on 09 Jan 2011, A Stallybrass wrote:

    Of course, 'guns don't kill'! Americans - and others - may find it interesting to follow a referendum campaign in Switzerland, this little island in the heart of Europe. On the issue of fire-arms: a national register, and army weapons kept in armouries not at home. For the moment, the gun control lobby looks like winning, but of course it's also seen as an attack on Swiss identity, the right of every citizen to bear arms, as disarming the honest and law-abiding... This comes after several high-profile murders with military weapons - and the discovery that there were no national statistics on the numbers of such incidents, of military weapons used in suicides, murders or crimes...

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  • 272. At 12:22pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    "In 2009 about 10,000 people died of gunshot wounds in America. In 2001, year of twin towers..."




    about 3,000 people were killed by merely two planes.


    [Correction: planes don't kill people, just like guns don't;

    those who use them, often with malicious intent - do.]

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  • 273. At 12:23pm on 09 Jan 2011, Kevin Orr wrote:

    12. At 10:05pm on 08 Jan 2011, Portugal OUT of the EU wrote:
    "We don't even know the identity of the criminal and his motives so why are some leftists already up in arms blaming Sarah Palin and other conservatives for this horrific crime? Whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"? The only person responsible for this crime is the GUNMAN. Assuming he does not have any mental illnesses, he could have chosen not to go ahead and use his gun to murder innocents"
    ============================================================

    Because that's America buddy. Love guns, and love to hate

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  • 274. At 12:24pm on 09 Jan 2011, clamdip lobster claws wrote:

    Yet again more divide and conquer politics from both sides. When are we going to solve the real problems facing America? Both parties should stop grandstanding and do what's right for our nation.

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  • 275. At 12:27pm on 09 Jan 2011, 45minutewarning wrote:

    I think America should ask itself what kind of an advertisement is it for democracy when it is conducted down the barrel of a gun? It seems to me that American politics is often full of vitriolic rhetoric and endless blaming. I have no doubt that the Sarah Palin website may have influenced people to resort to violence - there are always a few ctanks who need little excuse to go out and play the lone ranger. Our "democratic" system in Britain is tainted with deceit and shallowness, but I hope this paticularly ugly form of democracy does not make its way over the Atlantic to infest our nation.

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  • 276. At 12:28pm on 09 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    Tim L, (#190. At 10:12am on 09 Jan 2011)

    "... We execute someone and no one else gets killed? Then how did this tragedy happen?"
    I am confident that the perp had not previously been executed.

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  • 277. At 12:29pm on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    KG , I liked you US history lesson. You forgott the British Empire lession. Plundering, stealing ,slavery, over 2/3 of the known world. - john

    Ah, the "tu quoque" defence. I knew that was coming - it's the last refuge of the cornered. Of course, I haven't defended the record of the British Empire here. You know why? Because I condemn it unreservedly; your description is entirely accurate.

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  • 278. At 12:31pm on 09 Jan 2011, la_verita wrote:

    The rhetoric used by Sarah Palin in public speeches is disgusting, disrespectufl, and dishonest. It is Wild West politics, designed to inflame. She has no cares but her own, no agenda for the country, only her followers. Such selfish actions have now potentially caused another assassination attempt on a US political figure.

    For a country that is supposed to be the torch bearer for open democracy, it seems odd that it has s a consistent history of violent and deadly attacks on it's political representatives. If this is democracy in action, you can keep it.

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  • 279. At 12:31pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Nice one Icebloo, I was waiting for the Murdoch link to a shooting in Arizona. The real question is where was Maggie T when the shootings occurred?"








    More importantly "what did she know about it and when did she know it?" ;)

    [I assume you're referring to Maggie T. from the British T. Party?]

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  • 280. At 12:32pm on 09 Jan 2011, who2believe wrote:

    Just to point out that whilst all the news is about the congresswoman SIX people including a CHILD died in this atrocity. I know this may come as a shock to those with wealth and power but their lives are no more important than the rest of us. I wonder if the congresswoman gotr priority treatment, evacuation etc above the rest of those injured.
    To me the fact that all the news was about her injuries rather than the deaths of the others who just happened to be there shows exactly what is wrong with both the US and this country.
    To be honest from the little news that has come out do far it is not even certain she was the priority target (what about the judge?) but even if she was it just follows the main US policy both now and historically - if someone doesn't agree with you try to change their position by force.
    My condolences to all the innocent dead and injured but this sort of response is hardly unexpected and the fact the news is concentrating on a single casualty rather than all of them is just wrong.

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  • 281. At 12:32pm on 09 Jan 2011, MacTurk wrote:

    I, like everyone else, do not have the full facts. My sympathy is for the victims, first of all. Secondly, this act, whatever motivated it, was in effect, an attack on democracy.

    It will be detrimental to American democracy, as politicians will be well advised/obliged to have more security. This will result in further distance between electors and elected.

    As for the long term effects, I can hope for an improvement in the current US political discourse, which has reached a poisonously dangerous level. However, I doubt this will happen.

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  • 282. At 12:33pm on 09 Jan 2011, ThickAmerican wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 283. At 12:34pm on 09 Jan 2011, sickofbeingduped wrote:

    I wonder if the victim's family support the 'right to bear arms'?

    Personally, I think its crazy, and there would be less of these deaths if the U.S. changed it.... which I dont think they can or will?

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  • 284. At 12:34pm on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    "I am sure the vast majority of Americans are moderate, reasonable people" - carryongooner

    If only that were true. However, the huge audiences for far-right hatemongers such as Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly and Glenn Beck show that it is not.

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  • 285. At 12:35pm on 09 Jan 2011, Stokkevn wrote:

    In a country where just about every balm pot carries a gun and politicians putting posters on their web site with opposition politicians in cross hairs the only thing that surprises me is that it has taken this long for some idiot to take them at their word.

    Politicians such as Palin who constantly sniping at their opposition and never come up with a single idea of their own should never be voted for, if they are you deserve what you get.

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  • 286. At 12:37pm on 09 Jan 2011, Quo Vadis wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 287. At 12:38pm on 09 Jan 2011, foxyeric wrote:

    Killing in any form is just wrong.
    It is unfortunate that some politicians will go to any lengths to win over the voters. We as a human race will never learn from the past, we just use it as an excuse to kill each other.
    Until we all accept that there is Good,Bad,Right,Left,Black,White,rich,and poor. we will not be tolerant of each other.
    I would like to say that the amount of money use for elections is obscene.

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  • 288. At 12:38pm on 09 Jan 2011, stevegrant wrote:

    The American people should be ashamed that anyone can aquire a gun and then go on a shooting spree,decent people do not do that,decent people would see no reason to even own a gun.The political animals know the risks of office however extreme but what of the innocents including a small child?Did she count in this persons thinking about why he thought that America had lost its way but couldnt discuss it with neighbours or friends?The truth is somewhere in the middle where ordinary people are treated with contempt in America more so than the UK and the dog eat dog approach is so entrenched in every state that it divides whole communities.If you have nothing in the US after welfare runs out you might as well die or steal what you need,the same situation the Tories would like to enforce over here in the UK because it promotes the whole concept of greed is good and ensures the rich stay rich.The wealthy in America have ruined the country and although middle US is rarely shown, the ordinary folk,who are just like ordinary folk anywhere in the world are shocked when those brothers and sisters snap because decent people stick together,they help each other.The US needs to look long and hard at what it is doing to the very people who built it because unless it starts listening to everyone,not just bankers,political idiots or evil speculators it will find itself in a world of pain,not from crooks on Wall Street but from the very people who made it great.This act of extreme behaviour is shocking but could become mainstream if things become worse.

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  • 289. At 12:38pm on 09 Jan 2011, strontiumdog wrote:

    re243

    intolerance of views in most islamic countries lately a liberla govenor in Pakistan and the bombing ogf a coptic church in England

    ...................................................
    Magickrin
    when did this bombing happen in England, you would of thought it would be all over the BBC web site......... Egypt perhaps or the USA

    I guess when they find the guy who dropped off the gunman, the police will know more

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  • 290. At 12:41pm on 09 Jan 2011, ThickAmerican wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 291. At 12:41pm on 09 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    Tim L, (#222. At 11:04am on 09 Jan 2011)

    ”... No man is an island, so let's work to stop breeding violence.”
    About the only way to stop breeding violence in humans is to stop breeding. A challenging, if not insurmountable task.

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  • 292. At 12:42pm on 09 Jan 2011, Dirk wrote:

    Is it really necessary to be at a distance of a few 1000 miles to see this simple truth?
    Government may have some disadvantages that have to be tackled, but there are almost the only way for the people for in a democracy to influence policy. So if you, may be as a big company, don't want the people to have to much to say, you must cry "Less Government!".
    And you must cry that very hard, as a basic American Ideology, so people forget why you cry it. You may use as megaphone commercial television owned by other big company's.
    But crying so hard may have unwanted effects on some easy to influence individuals. Before this disaster there was Timothy James McVeigh. But also many other non-criminal people acting against general public interests.

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  • 293. At 12:43pm on 09 Jan 2011, Kiyote123 wrote:

    The poisonous climate that currently exists in American politics has been created by emotive language and graphics, and far-right propoganda designed to play on the fears of those supporters who do not fully understand the issues being discussed.

    If Sarah Palin and her Republican party had been discussing Russian geography rather than mid-term election targets, would they have marked key parts of the map with atomic bombs?

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  • 294. At 12:43pm on 09 Jan 2011, Miguel wrote:

    Shooting a politician is political.

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  • 295. At 12:43pm on 09 Jan 2011, mellowchatter wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 296. At 12:45pm on 09 Jan 2011, Ralphy wrote:

    All those using the actions of this clearly disturbed man to attack their political opponents should stop. Perhaps they should wait until we know the motives (if any) of the shooter before trying to score political points.

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  • 297. At 12:46pm on 09 Jan 2011, Norman Brooke wrote:

    America is hate filled, vengence filled, militarisitic, ultra conservative lies, gun swinging cowboy mentality. No wonder this sort of thing is happening over and over again. And will do until they clamp down on the fascist gun lobby supported by terrorist conservative rightwing thugs who would hand more over to the parasitical rich than help thier own fellow American.

    I pray for America, that God will deliver it from the naked violence, evil and material greed that is consuming this once good Nation now corrupted by the crime of deregulation and greed violence. Oh by the way if any 'conservative christain' reads this then pray tell us which Bible you read because I cannot find ANYTHING from the Teachings of Jesus Christ that glorifies, greed, violence and injustice towards the poor.

    God help America...She surely needs it. Thoughts and prayers for the victims.

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  • 298. At 12:46pm on 09 Jan 2011, clamdip lobster claws wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 299. At 12:46pm on 09 Jan 2011, ralokan wrote:

    Been reading all this now for close to 24 hours and I just want to offer a few thoughts that may be worth considering if you're an American, which I'm not and for which I am very grateful:
    1. I believe nationalism of any kind is fundamentally a bad thing and that Americans are among the world's most nationalist people. Doesn't make Americans bad people, just badly misguided.
    2. Nationalism carried to the American extreme becomes parochialism. Watch CNN for the world's most widely distributed "local" newscast.
    3. The vast majority of politicians are parasites whose driving ambition to their own enrichment. There are many exceptions, but not enough to save the reputation of this line of work.
    4. Increasingly, in the U.S. and elsewhere, political "success" requires the mentality of most NHL hockey players (and, yes, I'm Canadian), to wit: win at any price and with any club required and at hand. There is no room in politics nor NHL hockey for Marquis of Queensbury rules. "Nice guys" finish last in both of these endeavors, most of the time.
    5. The polarization of people that has received so much attention here is a symptom, not the problem. It's the result of things like nationalism and religion which create "them and us" thinking and it is simply primitive tribalism. Which bring us back, full circle, to narrow minded parochial thinking that will not be cured by any one country or group of people within it by demonizing all others.
    6. With the greatest respect, I suggest that perhaps the most important thing for Americans to learn as a start to fixing their central problems is a very large dose of humility. Strutting, bragging, pushing people around made them rich and powerful and widely despised. Isn't the cure obvious?
    Many thanks and good luck.

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  • 300. At 12:47pm on 09 Jan 2011, Dustin83v wrote:

    Arizona has been a hotbed of debate over ecological issues. Domestic terror attacks are often the result of unresolved differences on critical topics like industries (mining). Another point of disagreement is pollution. This state refused to discuss and amend environmental complaints.

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  • 301. At 12:47pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Mexico is part of North America, but before stealing a chunk of Mexico in the 1840s...]



    Is that why so many millions of Mexicans have been trying to sneak into U.S? For so many decades? To visit their former territories? :-)))


    "...the USA had already stolen a large chunk of the continent from Native Americans..."




    Every American born in the U.S. is a Native American.

    And if you refer to so called American Indians, DNA analysis (among other scientific data) has determined beyond any reasonable doubt once and for all that their ancestors were simply first immigrants
    who moved here mostly from now Russian N. East Syberia.

    [walking freely across Bering Strait Bridge, since there were no U.S. Border Patrols in Alaska then yet.]

    And btw. Apache, Cherokee, Komanche, Navaho, Ute, etc. are still here.
    As every U.S. Census clearly demonstrates.

    And their casinos (among other businesses) are doing pretty well too.




    So, nice [PC] try, but no cigar. :-)

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  • 302. At 12:49pm on 09 Jan 2011, KingLeeRoySandersJr wrote:

    Throw away assassins.

    Sad I can not post the truth so you may never see me on these post on BBC a propaganda media of Great Britain a myth for a government and knowledge of living history.

    BBC has folded to the USA who use radio implanted people to commit their crimes and throw away what is left of them. Hide this and you write a fate that if it was possible to bring you back after death and punish BBC operatives it would be justified.

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  • 304. At 12:52pm on 09 Jan 2011, who2believe wrote:

    264. At 12:15pm on 09 Jan 2011, stennylfc wrote:
    246. At 11:38am on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    BTW. In case somebody doesn't remember how USA came to be...

    A process of liberating Americans from a yoke of their then opresssive government began with the Tea Party. :-)))

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    I think you will find the oppressive government was the British government. Throughout American history the British have imposed their tax and banking regime on the Americans. It is now ironic that once the Americans finally lost their multiple fights against the Central Banking system that 100 years later the British and the world are now paying the price.
    It is the divide between rich and poor that starts civil wars and there is no reason to think it won't happen again.

    er stennylfc I think it is you who should check up on your history. The colonies were British and therefore subject the British rules. After the rebellion the Americans went their own way and only delat with the British banking system when they had to do, just as they dealt with the banking systems of the rest of the world. The fact that at first the British were the major power in thwe world at the time obviously affected their views. Just as when they became the major power their views affected other countries and changed how our system worked and just like the Asian banking system will affect the rest of the world now they are becoming the dominant economic powers. By the way, the taxes the British wished to impose did not affect the majority of those in the colonies only the rich. The reason for those taxes was the need to keep a standing army in those colonies to protect them from the French and Spanish and was there at the request of the colonies. This standing army was expensive hence the need for extra taxes. It is also interesting that the 'no taxation without representation' policy was at first supressed by the American ruling elite, who then used it for their own ends and were slow to implement it after the conclusion of the war. I suggest you read history from a variety of sources rather than just watch US films and listen US propoganda, you may get a more balanced view.

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  • 305. At 12:52pm on 09 Jan 2011, forclarification wrote:

    285. At 12:35pm on 09 Jan 2011, Paul wrote:
    Politicians such as Palin who constantly sniping at their opposition ...
    ============================
    Not the best choice of phrases

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  • 306. At 12:53pm on 09 Jan 2011, Tibor wrote:

    "18. At 10:24pm on 08 Jan 2011, ozpomfromhell wrote:
    ...you'd better start thinking about what you mean by terrorism."

    T-error-ism,
    where T stands for Thinking

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  • 307. At 12:54pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 308. At 12:57pm on 09 Jan 2011, AndyC555 wrote:

    "48. At 11:19pm on 08 Jan 2011, Portugal OUT of the EU wrote:
    "Firstly, he lives in a country with such lax gun laws, it is easy to get armed and commit murder. Imagine if he'd only had access to a knife. He could have done some harm, but not on this scale." - Virginia Moffatt

    In Switzerland, there are a few million semi-automatic rifles in the homes of Swiss citizens yet gun-related crime is very low in the country. This reinforces the view gun legislation is not to blame for shootings. Instead, the gunman or gunwoman is to blame for mis-using his or her gun."


    Rather depends on whether you think Switzerland or America is typical.

    Would you want to experiment with the UK by making guns freely available here?

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  • 309. At 1:09pm on 09 Jan 2011, doomjeffs wrote:

    Trust the BBC to take full advantage of this to attack the right, so predictable.

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  • 310. At 1:10pm on 09 Jan 2011, Lincoln Hawk-s wrote:

    294. Miguel: "Shooting a politician is political"

    There's nothing I can add to that.

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  • 311. At 1:16pm on 09 Jan 2011, maroonfever wrote:

    This tragic event comes as no surprise. With the media/ political spin being so extreme, a coloured president, the global economic mess, war in Afghanistan, the rise of China, the threat of North Korea, the rise of Russia, Burn a Koran day..

    Wrap it all up into some vitriolic media, Fox, CNN , MSNBC etc etc and then stand back cause that is one hell of a powder keg..

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  • 312. At 1:16pm on 09 Jan 2011, AllenT2 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 313. At 1:17pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    logica_sine_vanitate remarked:

    If I had a choice between living in Tucson, Arizona, on the one hand, and Mogadishu or, let's say, Tehran, Baghdad or Bogota (or even Acapulco), on the other, I know what my choice would be. It is, as they say, a 'no brainer'.





    Former (Republican) Speaker of the House and historian by profession, Newt Gingrich once remarked that if some aliens from outer space observed the surface of the Earth from its orbit, they could easily establish where the best conditions for homo sapiens exist, without knowing a thing about our species.

    It would suffice, said Gingrich, for them to watch the movement of human masses around the glob.

    For given any freedom of movement

    PEOPLE ALWAYS VOTE WITH THEIR FEET.




    And the smarter they are the sooner they do that, not waiting for the writing on the wall.

    [cf.ancestors of American Indians: first refugees from the future USSR.]


    And that's while some countries have had to build walls and fences to keep people in, U.S. has to erect fences to keep people out. :-(

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  • 314. At 1:17pm on 09 Jan 2011, Lenispal wrote:

    Within hours of this terrible crime news reporters and, of course, HYS posters, are making political capital out of it. This is really disgusting. What is needed at times like this is a thorough investigation before any conclusions are drawn. This is unlikely. Palin is getting the blame and her opponents appear to be over the moon.

    But what sickened me was a video recording from a US journalist who managed to blame the GOP, Palin, Beck, the Tea Party and so on for this tragedy, saying how violent imagery should be removed from politics. Only a few weeks ago that same reporter was defending Muslims from opponents like Palin who objected to the Ground Zero Mosque. We note, of course, the total absence of violent imagery from that corner.

    To the rest of you people on HYS - let us just pray, and show our symnpathy for the victims of this tragedy. The time to blame people will come later after a full investigation.

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  • 315. At 1:17pm on 09 Jan 2011, logica_sine_vanitate wrote:

    Chryses (@ 291) -

    "About the only way to stop breeding violence in humans is to stop breeding. A challenging, if not insurmountable task."

    Yeah, a great piece of reasoning this. (/sarcasm).

    Let's eliminate the human race completely (which would, of course, include Chryses - or are you "the Great Exception"?) and then violence will cease.

    Either you have your tongue stuck firmly in your buccal cavity, or you fail to see the ludicrous irony of your words, and need a serious lesson in logic.

    I'm sorely tempted to believe the latter. Please feel free to disabuse me of that assumption...

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  • 316. At 1:19pm on 09 Jan 2011, Wakeupthesheeple wrote:

    Sarah Palin should be arrested in connection with this incident. She is guilty of incitement to hatred, plain and simple.

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  • 317. At 1:19pm on 09 Jan 2011, Leviticus wrote:

    297. At 12:46pm on 09 Jan 2011, Norman Brooke wrote:
    Oh by the way if any 'conservative christain' reads this then pray tell us which Bible you read because I cannot find ANYTHING from the Teachings of Jesus Christ that glorifies, greed, violence and injustice towards the poor.
    /////////////////////////

    They don't, anymore than Jesus advocates the acceptance of homosexuality or abortion. But before the predictable left wing slagging off of America and the right wing gets under way, who are we in the UK to point and fingers.

    What Christ does teach is repentance from sin; and the Bible states that we ALL have sinned, never mind your political leanings.

    So before you seek to stand in some sort of moral judgement, remember that Jesus said make sure that you don't have a log in your own eye before you ask another to remove a speck in theirs.

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  • 318. At 1:22pm on 09 Jan 2011, Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote:

    To those blaming Palin and the tea party for this (and obviously haven't read the words the accused has written), is Jodie Foster to blame for the assasination attempt of Ronald Reagan?

    Those trying to blame fundamentalist christians on this, Loughner made rather clear he's an athiest.. Favorite books include the communist manifesto and brave new world.

    He thinks that government controls people's minds through grammar.

    Stop politicizing the actions of someone who is crazy.

    He killed a 9 year old girl, a republican appointed federal judge, and the person person he should was a conservative democrat jewish congresswoman.

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  • 319. At 1:23pm on 09 Jan 2011, old cop USA wrote:

    This was not a terrorist attack motivated by religious or political beliefs. It was an attack by a mentally disturbed loser, striking out at a society he blamed for his own personal inadequacies.

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  • 320. At 1:23pm on 09 Jan 2011, malik80pk wrote:

    well it shows that there is no difference in people, whether in Pakistan or USA. So few days ago Pakistan was a terrorist country, because one person acted on his own to kill a "freedom loving" person. shame on people who write these articles and brainwash us. the world is the same where ever you go.I think there are more fundamentlist minded people in deep America than in Pakistan.

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  • 321. At 1:24pm on 09 Jan 2011, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #308

    "In Switzerland, there are a few million semi-automatic rifles in the homes of Swiss citizens yet gun-related crime is very low in the country. This reinforces the view gun legislation is not to blame for shootings."

    No, it reinforces the view that there are significant cultural differences between why Swiss people own guns as oppose to Americans. One is to do with the national defence of a nation with no standing army, the other an outdated cultural fetish.

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  • 322. At 1:24pm on 09 Jan 2011, Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote:

    Why all the news and fuss about this.
    While you have The Second Amendment, you are going to have gun violence anywhere, anytime.
    --------

    Gee,mexico has only one gun store, and its almost impossible to legally purchase guns, yet they have far more gun violence.

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  • 323. At 1:25pm on 09 Jan 2011, Ernie Stephenson wrote:

    Stop selling guns.?

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  • 324. At 1:27pm on 09 Jan 2011, Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote:

    If you people are going to make this political, the vast, vast majority of our violence, and gun crimes occurs in liberal US areas, like cities, and liberal counties. barely a week into the year, and Prince George's County in MD has had 6 murders so far, all gun related. You don't get any more "liberal" than PG county.

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  • 325. At 1:29pm on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    "And btw. Apache, Cherokee, Komanche, Navaho, Ute, etc. are still here.
    As every U.S. Census clearly demonstrates.

    And their casinos (among other businesses) are doing pretty well too." - powermeerkat

    You're really getting desperate, aren't you? You can't and don't dispute any of the facts I gave about the way the USA was put together by conquest and land theft on a huge scale, together with genocide, so you try to distract attention. Native Americans (you know well enough what the term means, and that many of them consider "American Indians" to be an insulting term) have the lowest life expectancy and average household income of any ethnic group in the USA. In other words, they are still suffering the effects of having most of their land stolen, and their societies smashed.

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  • 326. At 1:32pm on 09 Jan 2011, BluesBerry wrote:

    I like your tone, Mark: "We do not, as I write, know what lies behind the shooting of a Democratic congresswoman and others in Arizona at a political meeting."
    We do not know!
    The Suspect (in his YouTube postings)
    - had made death threats in the past
    - had ranted about 'mind control' and terrorism
    - posted image of gun over US history textbook on MySpace.
    In addition, in a series of YouTube videos, a person identifying himself as Jared Lee Loughner complains about treasonous laws, illiterate dreamers and the US currency.
    Army confirms he tried to enlist, but was rejected (cause not specified).
    He names Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto among his favourite books
    He seems unstable.
    BUT the FBI is investigating WHETHER THE MAN FROM YOUTUBE IS REALLY THE SAME MAN WHO POSTED a rambling Internet manifesto accusing the government of mind control and demanding a new currency.
    In the mass shotting, six people died and Giffords had a critical head wound. Sheriff Clarence Dupnik of Pima County, where the shooting happened, told reporters the suspect, detained shortly immediately the shooting, had a troubled past: "All I can tell you is that this person may have a mental issue."
    Dupnik said there had been earlier contact between Loughner and law enforcement after he had made death threats, not against Giffords explicitly, and Dupnik would not say who.
    He said the authorities believe HE MAY NOT HAVE BEEN WORKING ALONE (and this implication, of course, is deeply troubling).
    He also gives his own definition of terrorism.
    "My Final Thoughts - Jared Lee Loughner!" reads: "If I define terrorist then a terrorist is a person who employs terror or terrorism especially as a political weapon..."
    A nine-year-old girl, a federal judge, an aide who was about to be married - victims of a self-defined terrorist?
    Jared Lee Loughner continues: "The government is implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar". The videos contain music and white text on a black background. "No! I won't pay debt with a currency that's not backed by gold and silver. No, I won't trust in God."
    He continues: "Every police officer in the United States as of now is unconstitutionally working!"
    On MySpace, Loughner appears to have posted a picture of a handgun before the attack. The 22-year-old positioned a photo of the White House behind the weapon. The words "United States History" also appear.
    Loughner writes: "My favorite interest was reading, and I studied grammar. Conscience dreams were a great study in college!"
    The postings describe no coherent political ideology, which may be an explanation for why Loughner was not in the Center's database of hate groups and radicals.
    Among his other favorite books are (not exclusive):
    Brave New World
    Aesop Fables
    Alice Adventures Into Wonderland
    Fahrenheit 451
    To Kill A Mockingbird
    One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest
    Through The Looking Glass
    The Communist Manifesto
    Mein Kampf
    Siddhartha
    The Old Man And The Sea
    The Republic
    Nothing strage or unusual in this list, but at the same time, he is spouting rhetoric that is quite reminiscent of the anti-government movements...
    His favorite activity is: "conscience dreaming: the greatest inspiration in my political business information".
    Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords had been one of 20 names on a "hit list" issued by Palin, complete with graphics of a rifle-like telescopic sight. Palin's approach, using a rifle, was clearly wrong, but I can't believe that she seriously intended persons to be harmed - except in the votes.
    In my opinion, this shooting will have a lasting impacts - for good or ill, but I think ill because
    - the United States is far to loose with its gun control
    - owning weapons and using them in self-defence is protected under the Constitution,
    - military returning from abroad know werapons, know how to use wapons and many have seen and done such horrible things that there is very likely a brain impact which we generally call PTSD.
    - military returning face horrid economic conditions, unemployment, and other frustrations that place them (I fear) close to the edge.
    - As you state: The rhetoric and debate that instantly sprang up around this crime show the volatile, febrile nature of American politics. Where is the beacon of hope in a Government that is trillions in debt and will do everything for investment banks too big to fail while doing very little for the back-broken working person? It is a dangerous climate...

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  • 327. At 1:32pm on 09 Jan 2011, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #301 #313

    powermeerkat;

    Those are two of your little jokes right? Please tell me you're kidding...

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  • 328. At 1:32pm on 09 Jan 2011, maroonfever wrote:

    As this has become a 'global' website, I think the BBC should at least post which country the comments are coming from.

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  • 329. At 1:36pm on 09 Jan 2011, Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote:

    And that is impossible so long gun manufacturers and organizations like NRA (national Rifles Association) have tremendous influence on our policy makers, mainly from Republican party.
    Personal security is a state subject and it HAVE To be carried out by state machinaries, not individuals.
    ---

    The congresswoman shot is a strong advocate of the second amendment.

    Second, in the US, we have an appellate court decision, out of Washington, DC, stating that citizens don't have a right to police protection.

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  • 330. At 1:36pm on 09 Jan 2011, Adrian Swall wrote:

    Why is the BBC interested in a minor US political event concerning a virtually unknown in Britain US politician.

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  • 331. At 1:37pm on 09 Jan 2011, Alasdair Campbell wrote:

    Sadly, these things happen. We had Dunblane and Hungerford. I hope therefore that people in the UK glasshouse will not throw stones!

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  • 332. At 1:40pm on 09 Jan 2011, M M Davies wrote:

    These comments make compelling reading, I've spent half the morning on them. My comment may seem somewhat tangential compared to the seriousness and sadness of the events, and the political passions understandably aroused by them. But here goes - I read today that Jon Stewart's The Daily Show is no longer to be shown on the More 4 Channel in the UK, because it 'only' gets 80,000 viewers. But that's 80,000 UK residents who are able to hear every day a welcome voice of sanity, intelligence and wit which is a credit to the USA. (And I've lived there too, and would definitely prefer Boston to Mogadishu, and even, in some respects, to my native London, (but why don't the Americans want everyone to be healthy???) So - my urgent request is to the BBC: if More 4 isn't going to show the Daily Show any more, could the BBC take it up? This would make a great contribution to US/UK understanding - and it's such a great programme/program - maybe would even attract many more than 80,000 viewers to BBC2, 3 or 4.

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  • 333. At 1:41pm on 09 Jan 2011, Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote:

    105. At 03:43am on 09 Jan 2011, Martin wrote:

    NRA Slogan: "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"
    What utter rubbish. You Americans just don't get it, do you. An angry person without a gun can't kill anyone.
    ----

    http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1812808,00.html

    Tell those who were killed on this killing spree with a knife.

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  • 334. At 1:45pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Ben Skinner wrote:
    I wonder if the victim's family support the 'right to bear arms'?




    Don't know about families. But congresswoman Giffords does.

    Nay, she's even supported "right to carry" [check].


    P.S. It's interesting that nobody asks why wasn't there any security (even local one) during that particular public open area event.

    Perhaps Sheriff Dupnik could explain it.

    [if he stopped whining for a moment]


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  • 335. At 1:48pm on 09 Jan 2011, Leviticus wrote:

    309. At 1:09pm on 09 Jan 2011, doomjeffs wrote:
    Trust the BBC to take full advantage of this to attack the right, so predictable.
    ///////////////////////

    So absolutely true. The BBC ( Baracks Broadcasting Corporation ) is an utter disgrace
    //////////////
    302. At 12:49pm on 09 Jan 2011, KingLeeRoySandersJr wrote:
    Throw away assassins.

    BBC has folded to the USA who use radio implanted people to commit their crimes and throw away what is left of them.
    ///////////////////

    Meanwhile the HYS moderators upheld the posting of this scurrilous comment that I complained about, that if aimed at an individual would surely be considered libellous?

    The BBC is no different to the worst of the gutter press as it jumps onto it's left wing band wagon and starts to express and encourage the expression of left wing hate rhetoric before the smoke hasn't even cleared. BBC you are a despicable disgrace.


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  • 336. At 1:49pm on 09 Jan 2011, Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 337. At 1:49pm on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    "To the rest of you people on HYS - let us just pray" - Dr Llareggub

    Well, you can spend your time talking to your imaginary friend if you want, but it won't do any good.

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  • 338. At 1:51pm on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    "And that's while some countries have had to build walls and fences to keep people in, U.S. has to erect fences to keep people out." - powermeerkat

    Just like every other rich country.

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  • 339. At 1:52pm on 09 Jan 2011, tensai13 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 340. At 1:53pm on 09 Jan 2011, redrobb wrote:

    Global site indeed 300+ and counting, quite a few moderated though and I'm guessing from across the water! Perhaps some will argue there was influence from whatever, and perhaps in some minds they'll find justification. But afore any one says Only In America, hello news just in take a look around the world! Including good ole UK, unfortunately its always the innocents that pay dearly for the actions of the few even though some don't have their finger on the trigger,words are enough.

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  • 341. At 1:54pm on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    "Tell those who were killed on this killing spree with a knife. - steve"

    So, you think this assassin could have killed 6 and wounded 18 with a knife? The plain fact is, the USA has a far higher homicide rate than any other rich country, and a gun-worshipping culture. If not to the latter, to what would you attribute the high homicide rate?

    Of course, there's also the high number of accidental gun deaths to take into account, many of them caused by children playing with Daddy's gun.

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  • 342. At 1:54pm on 09 Jan 2011, aphoristic wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 343. At 1:59pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:


    "suggest you read history from a variety of sources rather than just watch US films and listen US propoganda, you may get a more balanced view."


    It seems everybody, including HM QWII watch US movies and TV showe as a Recent British analysis of her speech pattern change between 1955 and 2005 has reverlaed.


    Of course I do realise Africans, Arabs, Australians, Chinese (who copy them illegally on gazilions of DVDs) Europeans, Japanese, Philippinos, etc., go to see them (and pay a pretty penny for it) only because US Marines have their M-16s pointed at their heads.


    [Otherwise they'd rather watch Algerian, Austrian, Belgian, Egyptian, Chinese, German, Portuguese, Russian and Sudanese films and TV series :)]

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  • 344. At 2:00pm on 09 Jan 2011, aphoristic wrote:

    Well mister moderator. I would be interested to know which house rule I broke by merely:
    A/ pointing out the folly of US gun laws and
    B/ Stating that if Palin's finger was on the nuclear button we should be very worried. ??

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  • 345. At 2:00pm on 09 Jan 2011, damons wrote:

    One of the right-wing commenters here said that the American left has been carrying on the same violent rhetoric as the right. This is how the Republicans excuse the violence and illegal behavior of their members -- "well, the other side does it too, only worse" -- thereby excusing the guilt and responsibility of Sarah Palin and the other violence-promoting hate mongers in the right-wing media.

    This commenter then claimed as evidence of leftist violence that Keith Olbermann and Stephanie Miller, two of the liberal talking heads on MSNBC, had called for the deaths of Reagan, Bush, and Cheney.

    This is a lie. I have watched these so-called "leftists" for some time, and they have never called for the deaths of these politicians, nor would they ever.

    To see the absurdity of this claim, and the emotional vitriol pushing such rubbish, you only need to note that Reagan has been dead for several years. And he was mentally disabled for many years before that. Why would they call for his death now? It's absurd, but it just shows how far the fact-free irrational Christian conservatives will go to push their agenda. Obviously this person hates "leftists" like Olbermann and Miller and feels it's totally justified to blatantly lie about them.

    The same person said:

    "Even though unlike the protesters against Arizona ilegal immigration law or WTO Group 20 protesters or Union strikers who commit violence and property damage; the Tea Party has been civilized."

    Of course, they are ignoring the incident during the recent Joe Miller campaign in Alaska, where Tea Party members attacked a woman protester, pushing her to the ground and stomping on her head. This cowardly action of these Tea Party men was caught on video tape, and this was not an isolated incident. There were other incidents at other political events, caught on tape, where Tea Party males attacked women they perceived to be on the other side. In one case a man verbally ridiculed a disabled woman for wanting a fair deal in health care.

    But hey, IOKIYAR - it's ok if you're a Republican. And that's how you know when you're dealing with the self-righteous hypocritical conservatives. They refuse to ever take responsibility for their actions, ever -- and if they are caught out in something obvious, like Sarah Palin in this case, they immediately claim the other side does it too, only worse. Lies, lies, and more lies. They just can't stop lying.

    Which is not that problematic except for their violence. This is not the first time that right-wing inspired hate speech has caused human death and suffering -- there have been at least *twelve* incidents in the US in the last two years! From the shootup at the Holocaust museum, to the shootup at the Unitarian Church, to the multiple attacks on cops, to the plane attack on the IRS building.

    All done by right-wing inspired nuts.

    One more note: the US doesn't really have a left-wing anymore -- the right-wingers brand anybody who doesn't agree 100% with them as leftist, liberal, progressive, communist, fascist, nazi. So that would include almost all moderates, centrists, and common folk in general.

    The right-wing way is to lie and attack, attack and lie, using code words to cover their violent hatred -- is it any wonder their tactics have borne violent fruit?

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  • 346. At 2:02pm on 09 Jan 2011, forclarification wrote:

    341. At 1:54pm on 09 Jan 2011, KG wrote:
    "Tell those who were killed on this killing spree with a knife. - steve"

    So, you think this assassin could have killed 6 and wounded 18 with a knife?
    ==========================================================
    Steve didn't say that, he was simply responding to a post from someone stating "An angry person without a gun can't kill anyone."

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  • 347. At 2:04pm on 09 Jan 2011, holierthanthou wrote:

    341. At 1:54pm on 09 Jan 2011, KG wrote:

    "Tell those who were killed on this killing spree with a knife. - steve"

    So, you think this assassin could have killed 6 and wounded 18 with a knife? The plain fact is, the USA has a far higher homicide rate than any other rich country, and a gun-worshipping culture. If not to the latter, to what would you attribute the high homicide rate?

    Of course, there's also the high number of accidental gun deaths to take into account, many of them caused by children playing with Daddy's gun.

    +++
    The USA is a vast place, which could account for it's higher homicide rate.

    I have no problem with their gun culture, it seems most of them keep their guns in their homes, cars or holsters. If the majority want to keep the right to bear arms, that is their business and their culture. It is not for us to enforce our ways on other nations.

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  • 348. At 2:05pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Lincoln Hawk-s wrote:
    294. Miguel: "Shooting a politician is political"

    There's nothing I can add to that.





    Yes there is.

    Shooting a judge is judgmental.

    Shooting a child is infantile.

    etc.


    [of course slandering America and Americans is NOT slanderous. ;-)]

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  • 349. At 2:09pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    "the rise of Russia, Burn a Koran day.."

    A small correction if I may...




    A decay of Russia and Bomb the Church day.

    [as well as imprison Nobel Peace Prize laureat, shell S. Korea and murder French hostages]

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  • 350. At 2:10pm on 09 Jan 2011, 1963Tiger wrote:

    If powermeerkat is a US resident/citizen, I suggest he NOT be allowed to buy a gun [legally]. Illegal weapons are not controlled unfortunately.

    Now what happens? Will the shooter be confined to a mental institution for life or will he be tried quickly and fried? I prefer the latter since there is nothing that can justify what he did and there is no reason to waste taxpayers money keeping him in jail. The UK could learn a thing or two from having a death penalty and not 6 months suspended for 3 as junior was abused as a child (BTW I am English and work in the US)

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  • 351. At 2:12pm on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    forclarification@346,
    Fair point.

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  • 352. At 2:14pm on 09 Jan 2011, VoterX wrote:

    Firstly there are deranged and psychotic people in any country who will latch on to a figure/person as the cause of all their life ills and portray their acts of violence as righting the perceived wrongs for the rest of their citizens/humanity...that's nothing new. But...given that fact...anybody who is a public figure or national politician or even aspiring to be the leader of their nation should think very carefully in future regarding the use of their language when denigrating/attacking their political opponents because if they use emotive or violent language there will always be some deranged person/supporter(?) who takes their words literally rather than what was their original metaphorical intention.The result could then be a tragedy like that that occurred yesterday in Tuscon


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  • 353. At 2:15pm on 09 Jan 2011, forclarification wrote:

    345. At 2:00pm on 09 Jan 2011, damons wrote:
    One of the right-wing commenters here said that the American left has been carrying on the same violent rhetoric as the right. This is how the Republicans excuse the violence and illegal behavior of their members -- "well, the other side does it too, only worse" -- thereby excusing the guilt and responsibility of Sarah Palin and the other violence-promoting hate mongers in the right-wing media.
    ============================================
    I think what people are pointing out is that the reaction from the left/Democrats has been to blame Palin etc even though nobody knows the motives behind the attack. Some are just pointing out that the left/Democrats also use targets on campaign literature etc and are no better

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  • 354. At 2:15pm on 09 Jan 2011, Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote:

    To the lefties blaming palin et all, because of a target sign used on a map....

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/27/brazilian-artist-depicts-_n_740542.html

    If anyone on this artist's drawing gets killed, will you blame the artist or the person who assasinates the person?

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  • 355. At 2:19pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    steve wrote:
    Why all the news and fuss about this.
    While you have The Second Amendment, you are going to have gun violence anywhere, anytime.
    --------

    Gee,mexico has only one gun store, and its almost impossible to legally purchase guns, yet they have far more gun violence.


    Correction, Steve,If I may.

    Mexican narkotraficantes are using not only heavy bona fide machine guns, but also bazookas and sometimes even anti-aircraft missiles.


    Since there isn't even a single store in the U.S. I could buy such toys from I tried to located one in that part of Mexico which has not been 'stolen' by Americans.

    Couldn't find any.

    Strange. Very strange.

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  • 356. At 2:20pm on 09 Jan 2011, McJakome wrote:

    • 56. At 11:48pm on 08 Jan 2011, j2bprometheus wrote:
    JMM-
    “You said ‘ I have never seen a left-wing graphic or exhortation to violence and none has occurred.‘
    How did you miss all these ‘left wing graphic or exhortations to violence’"?

    Perhaps I missed them because the “left” doesn’t have a 24-7 right-wing propaganda machine like FOX. I don’t like CNN, but honestly they have nothing like the Coulter, Hannity, Beck line-up of political poison. Their closest is the bald guy from Louisiana, and I don’t listen to them any more than I listen to FOX [I did listen to both in the past, but CNN has trashy infotainment and FOX has outrageously unbalanced and unfair content].

    94. At 02:28am on 09 Jan 2011, brazilwatcher wrote:
    "Yet another pointless crime committed by a disturbed young nutter who under the crazy laws of the USA is allowed to have virtual free access to a firearm. What a messed up country, glad I don't have to live there."

    Isn't Brazil the country where criminals in prison for major crimes have luxurious living conditions, guns, bodyguards and cell phones with which to conduct their "business" from behind bars? I'm glad I don't live there.

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  • 357. At 2:26pm on 09 Jan 2011, SandiaMan wrote:

    How do we know that the killed Federal judge was not the true target? In any case, the fact that members of the Democrat Party are willing to politically leverage this act tells us that they are as low as they would have us believe their opponents are. Have they no heart?

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  • 358. At 2:27pm on 09 Jan 2011, Mark M Newdick wrote:

    This is what happens when you rouse the rabble - Palin, "Tea Party" folks, Limbaugh, Hannerty, Beck and the Fox Noise people all need to have a rethink.

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  • 359. At 2:29pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:


    "You can't and don't dispute any of the facts I gave about the way the USA was put together by conquest and land theft on a huge scale"


    Yes I do. Fully one third of the lower 49s has been PURCHASED from the French, Alaska - from Russians. Texas has made its on decision freely.

    Oh, I almost forgot: there's also that "small" part Brits were kicked out from.

    [yes I "remember Alamo". Do you remember Boer Wars and Potato "Famine"?]

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  • 360. At 2:29pm on 09 Jan 2011, magnificentpolarbear wrote:

    Is Sarah Palin (and her ilk) to blame for this?

    Clearly not but the use of 'cross hairs' and 'targets' in really not acceptable.

    The person who committed this appalling act is clearly suffering from some sort of mental imbalance.

    Such people often belive they are carrying out acts such as this because this is what 'X would want'.

    History is littered with incidents with that explanation.

    Hopefully this also becomes a wake up call for politicians to dial down the rhetoric in their campaigns and bring back cilvilised debate.

    My sympathies to all affected by this incident.

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  • 361. At 2:32pm on 09 Jan 2011, Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote:

    To those blaming Palin and the tea party for using gun related terms, Is the Atlantic guilty as well?

    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/07/charlie-rangel-in-the-crosshairs/60636/

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  • 362. At 2:34pm on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    "The USA is a vast place, which could account for it's higher homicide rate." - holierthanthou

    Er, no, it couldn't. The homicide rate is the number of homicides per 100,000 inhabitants.

    "If anyone on this artist's drawing gets killed, will you blame the artist or the person who assasinates the person?" - steve

    The killer of course always has primary responsibility (unless it turns out he was a stooge, put up to it by someone mentally competent). Does this artist's work and activities have international coverage? Is he an important political figure? Is he a key player in a concerted campaign to demonise those he disagrees with?

    Didn't think so.

    I note that the Brazilian Bar Association has in fact protested about these images of assassination and called for their removal.

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  • 363. At 2:34pm on 09 Jan 2011, tobyjug wrote:

    Mark, I would get out of there ASAP. It's a madhouse.

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  • 364. At 2:35pm on 09 Jan 2011, C Smith wrote:

    #135

    "I was a journalist myself until recently, I know how the system works. I now work in the humanitarian field, it's at least real."

    "Your true calling, no doubt. Journalism requires balance and objectivity."

    Balance and objectivity .... in the US? Are you kidding?
    They don't know the meaning of the words!

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  • 365. At 2:36pm on 09 Jan 2011, Marton R wrote:

    @136
    No, JC, there is a great deal of fake balance in jounalism that ends up skewing the facts of a case. And there is a difference between being a journalist and being a reporter. And then there is the giving of opinion. Believe me, after 30 years in the field I know what I am talking about perhaps better than you do.

    For decades there have been great sections of the news ignored, because the newspapers and news media have been cowed into silence. It began (in the USA) under Reagan. Today, the media are panicked that some great big rich ape is going to sit on them if they say the wrong thing.

    Believe me.... This is why I use a pseudonym for writing on these fora. I wouldn't otherwise. Back in the USSR they were more direct with the silencing. We do it differently... More politely.

    So I will reiterate: The shooting was bound to come, it is not the first one of its kind and it definitely goes onto Ms Palin's account, she is the one who put Gifords "in the rifle sites" in one of her hate ads. This is not an invention, it's a verifiable fact. She and her employers has been heating up the wingnuts for over two years now. If you don't believe that, then you must be living in outer space.

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  • 366. At 2:37pm on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    [of course slandering America and Americans is NOT slanderous. ;-)] - powermeerkat

    Powermeerkat gets something right! Hold the front page!!! It is indeed, not legally possible to slander either a country, or its citizen body as a whole.

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  • 367. At 2:38pm on 09 Jan 2011, Gruffydd ap Llywelyn wrote:

    My sympathies go out to all those that have suffered loss as a result of this but just remember... Those that live by the sword will perish from it.

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  • 368. At 2:41pm on 09 Jan 2011, C Smith wrote:

    "Tons of trolls out today."

    Takes one to recognise one!

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  • 369. At 2:42pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    KG wrote:
    "And that's while some countries have had to build walls and fences to keep people in, U.S. has to erect fences to keep people out." - powermeerkat

    Just like every other rich country.





    East Germany wasn't exactly poor.

    It was more a problem locals had with their KG B.[Stasi]


    And whites are not leaving South Africa 'cause they're poor.
    Reverse apartheid might have something to do with their exodus.



    [as for 'short life span' an absence of a gene breaking down alcohol might have something to do with it. According to geneticists.

    Both in case of so called American Indians and Australian aborgines.]


    And I always thought that PC was a short for personal computer only. :-(

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  • 370. At 2:45pm on 09 Jan 2011, Cindy Unvericht wrote:

    "Febrile Politics" what a strange word to use in describing the political atmosphere in the United States considering the discord around the rest of the world. The youth of Great Britain and France are in the streets violently protesting against their respective governments, the citizens of Greece are violently protesting against the austerity measures imposed by their corrupt government, citizen unrest exists in Sweden, Sudan, Thailand, Ireland and the list goes on because the people of the world are tired of being used by their governments to further their own personal agendas and abusing the power they've been given to represent the people. The global political climate is febrile.

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  • 371. At 2:47pm on 09 Jan 2011, SONICBOOMER wrote:

    240, because It's a worldwide part of a news website, this is blog by the Washington Correspondent of that news provider which has, since inception, had a worldwide presence.
    Simple enough for you to get?

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  • 372. At 2:48pm on 09 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    logica_sine_vanitate, (#315. At 1:17pm on 09 Jan 2011)

    "...Let's eliminate the human race completely (which would, of course, include Chryses - or are you "the Great Exception"?) and then violence will cease.

    Either you have your tongue stuck firmly in your buccal cavity, or you fail to see the ludicrous irony of your words, and need a serious lesson in logic.

    I'm sorely tempted to believe the latter. Please feel free to disabuse me of that assumption..."

    OK

    I am sure that someone who is as familiar as you are with logic is aware that only deductive logic can guarantee truth when applied validly to correct premises. Inductive logic is limited to a probability of truth as the sample size is proportional to the population. That is another way of saying that when the sample size approaches the population size, and inductive logic is validly applied, the probability of truth approaches 1.

    Let us consider what might be a useful population to use to assess the proposition that, if I might refer back to Tim L's post #222,"... No man is an island, so let's work to stop breeding violence." As he referred to "No man is an island," we might take human groups to be the population as his focus. Notwithstanding the Greek philosopher who suggested otherwise, and acknowledging that such hubris does invite nemesis, I propose that the family is the original ordered human group. Matriarchal or Patriarchal, Nuclear or Extended organization is of no consequence, merely that the family, thus loosely defined, is an organised group of humans.

    If we then examine human history for the incidence of violence, paying particular attention to ordered human groups, we might be able to inductively tease out some relationship between ordered human groups and violence.

    My reading of history suggests that the two - ordered human groups and violence - are co-extant.

    I am not here referring to the written record, although that is persuasive, but the archeological one. As an example, I provide "The oldest genetically identifiable nuclear family met a violent death, according to analysis of remains from 4,600-year-old burials in Germany."
    (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7733372.stm )

    You are entitled, if you wish, to assert that this is only a coincidental relationship, and that the mere fact that there has been no violence-free ordered human group - what many would call "societies" - on record, is a trifling detail. I take a different interpretation to the record; to be human is to be capable of violence. If my interpretation is valid, then only by not breeding humans may one "stop breeding violence" in humans.

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  • 373. At 2:49pm on 09 Jan 2011, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #345
    Which is not that problematic except for their violence. This is not the first time that right-wing inspired hate speech has caused human death and suffering -- there have been at least *twelve* incidents in the US in the last two years! From the shootup at the Holocaust museum, to the shootup at the Unitarian Church, to the multiple attacks on cops, to the plane attack on the IRS building.

    All done by right-wing inspired nuts.

    One more note: the US doesn't really have a left-wing anymore -- the right-wingers brand anybody who doesn't agree 100% with them as leftist, liberal, progressive, communist, fascist, nazi. So that would include almost all moderates, centrists, and common folk in general.

    The right-wing way is to lie and attack, attack and lie, using code words to cover their violent hatred -- is it any wonder their tactics have borne violent fruit?



    ____________--

    There is a left wing whose members include a death threa to Gifford (a blue Dog).

    The Holocaust shooter was a liberal who btw are the racists against Jews. Israel arpathied week at liberal insitutions.

    the hate and the lies coming from the left blaming Palin, Limbaugh etc are typical of the McCartheism that liberals have got away with for 30-409 years.

    It is the left like the people on MSNBC who promote hate. And the human rights violators in this hemishre all come from leftist dictatorships or govt: Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia Ecuador and Nicuagua while progressive govt are the U.S Canada, Costa Rica, Chile and Columbia all moderate to right

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  • 374. At 2:50pm on 09 Jan 2011, Don wrote:

    Although we do yet not know the reasons for the shooter's actions, this tragedy does highlight the potential dangers resulting from the constant, hate-filled political rhetoric being spewed by extremists in America.
    Shawn Hannity, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Sarah Palin and members of the Tea Party constantly demonize those with differing political views. This endless stream of hate-filled, overblown speech serves to rile up many members of society. It also can motivate less stable individuals to act upon the rage and hatred they feel toward those serving in government. I hope Hannity, Beck, Limbaugh, o'Reilly and Palin will think about the harm they are doing to America's psyche with their endless hate filled comments The sad thing is they are not willing to have an actual issue based debate, but instead demonize those with differing views. Their negative messages undermine citizens' trust and faith in their government. America's government certainly makes some major mistakes, but in general, it tries to do the right thing.
    I urge citizens to write to their members of congress and Hannity, Beck, Limbaugh, O'Reilly and Palin and demand a less confrontational tone in congress and in the media. Shouting is not the answer.

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  • 375. At 2:52pm on 09 Jan 2011, McJakome wrote:

    107. At 03:47am on 09 Jan 2011, jorg25 wrote:
    "The comments about Palin's "targeting" Democratic opponents complete with a US map with supposed "crosshairs" showing the locations of such opponents is a gross exageration, distortion and largely irrelevant to the tragedy in Arizona. Sorry, too much is being made of this"

    And what about the distorted, if not made-up, death panels-Sarah Palin encouraging folks to believe Obama and the Democrats want to euthenize their elderly relatives? And what about Obama is not a real American and is trashing the Constitution, when, in fact, he was born in Hawaii and UPHELD the Constitution when it would have been more popular to disregard it [vis-a-vis the Muslim cultural center]?

    I was upset and did not sufficiently emphacize in my first, and since removed] post that I want everyone, on every side, to consider the effects of their words and actions, especially indirect effects such as triggering those with more ammo than wits. If the Left has done so then they also deserve criticism.

    One of the first reactions was someone calling me disgusting for "taking advantage" of the situation for political reasons, and suggesting that I am some kind of "Leftist" or Communist. Wanting people to refrain from bearing false witness and to be responsible in not causing harm to others is "Leftist" and disgusting?

    I think that sort of makes my case about how distorted and poisonous the political atmosphere has become in the US. I thought those were characteristics of Christianity! If Jesus was a "Leftist" or Communist, then I will be unashamed to be one too.

    111. At 04:01am on 09 Jan 2011, AndreaNY wrote:
    "What if you find the shooter is a liberal who didn't like moderates? Mental illness crosses party lines."

    I agree with you that if the person is a "Leftist" there should be sanctions against anyone who encouraged or helped him. NOW will you admit that if he is right-winger, under the influence of Coulter, Limbaugh, Beck and the right wing propagandists they should be sanctioned?

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  • 376. At 2:53pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Mr Creosote wrote [ad hominem]:

    If powermeerkat is a US resident/citizen, I suggest he NOT be allowed to buy a gun [legally].



    Too late: powermeerkat not only has (legal) guns.

    He also believes in firm gun control (stead hand, sharp eye and constant practice are essential)



    "BTW I am English and work in the US"



    So what now in view of the above?

    Are going to quit your job and leave?

    For I somehow don't think so. :-)


    [If I had a good job in the U.K. I'd simply carry TWO knives.]

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  • 377. At 2:53pm on 09 Jan 2011, Raymo42 wrote:

    A horrible event like this should have the effect of uniting us around our common humanity. No decent human being can codone murder for any reason and no one in the public sphere could possibly dream of making political gain from this tragedy. But, look at what is happening. Instead, we are coming apart. Why are political leaders on all sides not coming out in droves to condemn these killings? Why are so many posts on blogs like this one getting pulled for being unacceptable? The public reaction is even more frightening than a lone gunman and bodes ill for the future of our country and the world.
    - A concerned U.S. citizen

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  • 378. At 2:55pm on 09 Jan 2011, Lenispal wrote:

    I see that the HYS posters are blaming Palin and the Tea Party for this tragedy without waiting for the full details to emerge. The tendency to make political capital out of it is repulsive. For goodness sake, show some compassion before knee jerk politicising.

    Gun imagery is a characteristic of US politics, and Palin's cowboy style macho rhetoric is part of this tradition, shared across the US spectrum of politics.

    In retaliation Palin's supporters and the GOP will dig up violent imagery employed against former President Bush. Remember the Tea -shirt 'Don't impeach Bush, execute him'. Not nice but used when politics gets dirty. Likewise when Democrats go on TV describing Sarah Palin's vagina as 'the font of evil' and the jokes posted on You Tube about which part of her anatomy do the 'retards' emerge from.

    We are different in the UK, we don't expect politicians to imitate the wild west. Instead our politicians use imagery that reflects our maritime history: opponents are scuppered, drowned, and Party leaders attempt to sink their rivals. Imagine what would happen if Labour revealed plans to sink the Lib Dems and a couple of weeks later a lunatic exploded a bomb on a ship carrying British people.

    May I repeat: please show comapssion for the victims and postpone the political point scoring.

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  • 379. At 2:58pm on 09 Jan 2011, Drooper_ wrote:

    A few Kennedys, Martin Luther King, Hale Boggs, Paul Wellstone... quite a few standout establishment threatening names whose political careers have ended prematurely. All shot or killed in plane crashes, I think. I don't know what the standard is for averages, but I would hazard a guess the number is above the Western European average.

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  • 380. At 3:00pm on 09 Jan 2011, McJakome wrote:

    RE 137. At 07:13am on 09 Jan 2011, Oldloadr
    TO 127. At 05:54am on 09 Jan 2011, bill torbitt

    The War of Southern Aggression began well before the treasonous attack on Fort Sumter.

    Despite agreements to limit the spread of the evil institution of slavery, the southern states maintained constant pressure to do so, and disregarded their agreements. The South gave us “Bleeding Kansas, the South, ignored the Missouri Compromise, the hypocritical “States’ Rights” south saw nothing wrong with first sending bounty hunters into Massachusetts and other Northern states, and later trying to use Federal officers for the same purpose, that being denying the people of Massachusetts the right to govern themselves and make slavery unlawful in their territory.

    Enough Southern apologetics, fake history and hypocrisy.

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  • 381. At 3:00pm on 09 Jan 2011, monkeydrivel wrote:

    Well I just checked in to see what everyone is saying as it seems the debate out there is about political climate. And these comment sections are a perfect example of that in my mind. I can say I'm sad and in awe of many of the comments.

    Before I went to sleep last night I went to the shooters youtube page, and I checked local AZ news sights for first hand information from witnesses. . . this is what I got from that.

    1. This young man was very disturbed, to the point where his classmates remember him being forcefully removed from college math classes because of incoherent rants during class; he even noted that campus police were "unconstitutional" for kicking him out in 1 of his 5 videos. He seemed to have a thought process that suggested that if you used proper english or us currency then you were "illiterate" and that you were under the unconstitutional mind control of the government, and that only "dreamers", like him were truly awake. So for him the only reasonable thing to do to escape the illiterate mind control was to make your own currency, and forget rules in language and communicate in free verse like manner. His clear paranoia kept focusing on the government and things deemed unconstitutional.

    2. the best accounts I can get he would have clearly been attempting to assassinate the congresswoman as he apparently shot her point blank first (close enough the the bullet went in and out with out completely destroying the exiting side of her skull) then shot wildly as he attempted to flee. Then was tackled and secured by a man when attempting to reload his weapon. In spite of his clearly unbalanced mindset he seemed to be coming to specifically kill his federal representative and flee, not just come to a crowd and start firing until he was out of bullets. The account I read was apparently from the individual (hero) who subdued the shooter.

    as for what's going on here. . . wow. . .

    powerkitty. . .your comments (notably your opinions about native americans is so wildly offensive (to reason) that I'll just leave you here with it. . .

    coming from the shooters drivel to this drivel has made me realize, what he thought made perfect sense to him, trying to have a reasoned debate with the man probably wouldn't have changed his mind.

    and I scroll down and read this amazing stuff. It seems hard to find people complimenting each other or ever admitting a fault, retracting a comment, or amending anything in light of a new comment, just people digging in heels deeper and deeper; much less a sense of humor about our differences.

    Well I guess we enjoy telling others they are wrong more than actually listening.


    good luck to all, my thoughts and prayers with those suffering and fighting for their lives, now, to survive and get back to their families and later when they will have to try to put their lives back together.

    my father died slowly over a year from a head injury from a drunk driver hitting him, My sincerest sympathies to all effected by this insane event.

    to the drivel monkeys on this page. . . obviously your world makes sense to you so no one is going to tell you otherwise, so all I can suggest is to try to control it a bit in times like this and as Miles Davis said to Charlie Parker "take the horn out your mouth."


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  • 382. At 3:01pm on 09 Jan 2011, Steve wrote:

    I am very sorry to hear yet again of the murder of innocent people by firearms in the US. There are many dangerous people in every country. Incredidibly the United States makes their own country far, far more unsafe by having next to no controls on guns.
    Palin's website is an embarrassment (with crosshairs that turn red once an opponent has been 'taken out') and really puts American politics in a very bad light.
    We don't yet know if this provoked the gunman, but we do know amongst others, a 9 year old child is dead.

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  • 383. At 3:03pm on 09 Jan 2011, deanarabin wrote:

    This is a tragedy for all those concerned, and maybe for the US as a whole. But why are the BBC giving it such a degree of attention on a British website?.

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  • 384. At 3:03pm on 09 Jan 2011, junkmonkey wrote:

    As we learn about both the victims and the alleged perpetrator, it becomes clear that neither the right or the left can make an appropriate political 'spin' on this tragedy. I suggest those who want to make political 'hay' out of this return to their normal facebook pages and leave the analysis to the grown-ups.

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  • 385. At 3:09pm on 09 Jan 2011, Leviticus wrote:

    367. At 2:38pm on 09 Jan 2011, Dai the Tie wrote:
    My sympathies go out to all those that have suffered loss as a result of this but just remember... Those that live by the sword will perish from it.

    //////////////////

    How profound. I wish I had thought of that!

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  • 386. At 3:10pm on 09 Jan 2011, american grizzly wrote:

    Febrile is the word, now those in the UN will try and impose more order in the world. I have one question for these that would try to mandate, control, and isolate acts of violence. It is impossible to do. Do you have private swimming pools in the UK? Do you have automobiles? Several readily items you can purchase with out a mental health check, or a background check will allow you to buy items, relatively cheap, that could kill a lot more people than one nut with a gun. All you need is a basic high school science grade of C to fabricate something alot more deadly. At least you picked the right word for the liberals here Mark, febrile, and all knowing. By the way Gandhi, told the British not to resist Hitler. Wonder how that one would have worked out?

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  • 387. At 3:11pm on 09 Jan 2011, Steve wrote:

    OK so there is are STILL people defending the right to bear arms.
    Do those people defend the right to carry suicide bombs?
    What's the difference? If you are carrying a gun it is with the intention of shooting someone. If not, why are you carrying a gun?
    I can only guess it is because you are a coward.
    Please review Bowling For Columbine until you do finally understand.

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  • 388. At 3:11pm on 09 Jan 2011, jeremyainsworth wrote:

    The shooting reveals yet again the problems for the West as a whole. Yea Sarah Palin has unpalatable opinions as do many politicians of left and right. The problem is that the Western political model is being thrust down the throat of the rest of the world as 'The only way to go'.In the US guns are tolerated, even venerated. "The right to bear arms etc. etc.." If in the wonderful world of democracy any idiot or bigot can bear arms. Inevitably he/she may be tempted to use them in a 'freedom of expression' binge. True freedom involves rights and responsibilities... Politicians like to stress the former and soft peddle the latter- perhaps they should all start to model responsible behaviour rather than just bang on about sacred freedoms....

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  • 389. At 3:15pm on 09 Jan 2011, Pancha Chandra wrote:

    The tragic shooting should remind all politicians that they have deep responsibilities. Accusations have been flying to and fro that unwise comments from the far right triggered this tragedy. One obvious lesson to be learnt is that unwise comments said in the heat of the moment to garner more votes should be avoided at all costs. Gun violence is at the heart of the matter. Our thoughts go to the bereaved families. Our thoughts go especially to Congresswoman Gabrille Giffords who was evidentally the target of the gunman. It is our fervent hope she survives and carries on her distinguished career. Politicians should grow up and resist using vitriolic language: they should not have targeted lists for starters!

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  • 390. At 3:17pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    JMM asks: Isn't Brazil the country where criminals in prison for major crimes have luxurious living conditions, guns, bodyguards and cell phones with which to conduct their "business" from behind bars? I'm glad I don't live there.






    Not so long ago Brazilian narcotraficantes fighting with police in one of Rio [you know, future Olympics site?] favelas shot down a called in police helicopter with a SAM. [ surface-to-air misile]

    And no respectable narocartel 'soldier' there would ever carry a simple six-gun (those are for kids), but at least an Uzi submachine.


    Been there, seen that:

    almost nothing is allowed; almost anything is available.

    And a level of corruption in Brazil is similar to that in Mexico.

    [I am talking of course of that part of Mexico we have not stolen yet]

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  • 391. At 3:18pm on 09 Jan 2011, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #376

    powermeerkat;

    "[If I had a good job in the U.K. I'd simply carry TWO knives.]"

    Its 5 years for carrying, I dont know if they'd give you 10 for carrying two...

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  • 392. At 3:19pm on 09 Jan 2011, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #374
    , Don wrote:
    Although we do yet not know the reasons for the shooter's actions, this tragedy does highlight the potential dangers resulting from the constant, hate-filled political rhetoric being spewed by extremists in America.
    Shawn Hannity, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Sarah Palin and members of the Tea Party constantly demonize those with differing political views.
    ________________

    You are guilty of the same intolerance that you falsely accused the above mentioned of.

    starnge that you don't mention any extremist on the liberal end who engage in racist slandering on a daily basis.

    The Tea Party let me repeat does not have a social or foriegn policy agenda, and there is no proof of it having a racist component.

    There is far more of that in the NAACP or La Raza

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  • 393. At 3:22pm on 09 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    A century ago our forbears picked up their values and atitudes from the family and wider community around them...what i think we are failing to understand is that in our modern western world many people live in an emotional and cultural vaccuum.....often in one parent families....where what parenting they get is from a television screen which can easily bring the some of the vilest and sickest and most pornographic images immaginable.

    Raised on this emotionally and psychologically toxic diet..... and without close loving family and community attachments..... these unfortunates may never develop a respect or regard either for themselves or for those whose lives go on almost in parallel around them.

    Look at the imagery of even children`s video games and you will soon see that killing is as common as breathing in the world they portray.

    The media and big business counter criticisms like mine with public relations arguments about "freedom of expression" .....but there`s really only one freedom at work in Britain and the USA today.....and sadly it`s the freedom to become and stay rich regardless of the consequences for those around us.

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  • 394. At 3:24pm on 09 Jan 2011, Dudski wrote:

    Right on the mark. Both sides will take this as validation of what they believe. Laughner is so far from the stereotypical right winger that it would seem impossible to link the right to the violence.

    But we'll soon hear arguments that go something like, "The climate created by the right created an atmosphere in which this disturbed person thought it was acceptable to resort to violence".

    The right will look at those leaps of logic and say, "See, they will use any excuse to cast us as fringe extremists and go off on a tirade about media bias."

    The one thing you can count on is the shooting being exploited to validate the political ideas of people who don't want to be bothered with thinking about issues or listening to anyone who doesn't agree with them.

    What makes us look ridiculous is that we are a nation who take Rush Limbaugh and Keith Olbermann seriously, not realizing they are the same manipulative hack, just working a different side of the street.

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  • 395. At 3:27pm on 09 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    My posts are disappearing...have I been getting too close to the truth?

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  • 396. At 3:28pm on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    "Yes I do. Fully one third of the lower 49s has been PURCHASED from the French, Alaska - from Russians. Texas has made its on decision freely." - powermeerkat

    Receiving stolen property at best: most of the pre-European inhabitants were in all cases violently dispossessed. I've already pointed out that France, while claiming Louisiana, actually occupied very little of it; the same is true for the Russians in much of Alaska - so in both those cases, it was indeed the USA that did the bulk of the dsispossession of the earlier inhabitants.

    The fundamental point is clear: the USA is no different from any other powerful state in having been built largely through systematic violence. Land theft, slavery and genocide all played crucial roles.

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  • 397. At 3:29pm on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    "If I had a good job in the U.K. I'd simply carry TWO knives." - powermeerkat

    Which would be illegal: carrying an offensive weapon can attract a substantial jail term. Please, stay away.

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  • 398. At 3:30pm on 09 Jan 2011, raoulbitenbois wrote:

    Wow ! The teabaggers are out in force today ...

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  • 399. At 3:31pm on 09 Jan 2011, chaffcutter wrote:


    well done -

    one down 11 more to go on Sarah Palin list

    speaker Boehner has also asked for few heads, Steve Derihaus D-Ohio and others on his list better watch out

    lets see who wins

    patriotic Americans are waiting and watching Fox News for guidance.

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  • 400. At 3:34pm on 09 Jan 2011, John_from_Hendon wrote:

    #263. logica_sine_vanitate and
    #243. MagicKirin

    Are there more guns in the hands on lunatics in the USA or Somalia? Are the press and politicians promoting more homicidal lunatics in Somali or the USA? Get your rose tinted glasses off the USA is a failed state! It has chosen to take the path from superpower to failed state!

    We foreigners can make our voices heard by not visiting - and that is what we should do - until the NRA and the Tea Party renounce all violence and campaign for the introduction of proper gun control. Without gun control they are just as bad as any lawless third world country - don't visit them!

    If the constitution requires changing then change it - the NRA must take the initiative and campaign for those changes!

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  • 401. At 3:35pm on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    "And whites are not leaving South Africa 'cause they're poor.
    Reverse apartheid might have something to do with their exodus." - powermeerkat

    The claim of "reverse apartheid" is an absurd and monstrous falsehood. White South Africans remain on average much better off than any others, and suffer no restrictions whatever on their activities because of their race.

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  • 402. At 3:35pm on 09 Jan 2011, Lenispal wrote:

    It might be worth noting that the targets in Palin's map are surveyors targets and this notion of targetting is widely used in US politics. The Democrat supporting, Daily Kos, produced a similar map with bulls eyes on it in 2006.

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  • 403. At 3:41pm on 09 Jan 2011, Ralphy wrote:

    382. SteveCholerton wrote: 'Palin's website is an embarrassment (with crosshairs that turn red once an opponent has been 'taken out') and really puts American politics in a very bad light'

    With little effort you can find similar 'target' graphics that have been issued by both the GOP and Democrats in recent elections, and in at least one UK election. Also the BBC have used similar graphics in their election coverage.

    Are they all to blame?

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  • 404. At 3:42pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #361

    Steve, since you've quoted an "Atlantic" piece on that crook from Harl...errr, the Honorable Charlie Rangel - here's another relevant piece: about 'sacrifices' of Mr. Obama's press secretary and spin doctor:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/01/no-pity-for-robert-gibbs-and-his-modest-salary/68943/

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  • 405. At 3:43pm on 09 Jan 2011, Leviticus wrote:

    So how does the US homicide rate compare with Mexico/Colombia/Brazil?

    And is this any different to the recent political assassination in Pakistan and previously Benazir Bhutto. And wasn't Indira Ghandi assassinated and then her brother?

    But of course being the US it deserves greater criticism?

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  • 406. At 3:43pm on 09 Jan 2011, NameAgain wrote:

    349. At 2:09pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:
    "the rise of Russia, Burn a Koran day.."

    A small correction if I may...


    ----------------------

    a correction then as you wish..it is `born a Quran day`.

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  • 407. At 3:44pm on 09 Jan 2011, jorg25 wrote:

    Capitalism collapsing under its own weight. Too much stress. Bad chemicals. Bad ideas. Total madness. Have a nice day.

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  • 408. At 3:46pm on 09 Jan 2011, John_from_Hendon wrote:

    #400 continued...

    We could also:
    - Bar all US citizens from entry into Europe....
    - Close down all direct flights...
    - Forbid the import of goods...
    - Ban the export of all goods (including anything with a potential military use)...
    - Immediately pull out of all joint military enterprises...

    How else can we persuade the USA that their mass personal possession of lethal weaponry is abhorrent?

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  • 409. At 3:46pm on 09 Jan 2011, Nick Gotts wrote:

    I'll just note once more that the chief standardbearers of the right here, such as MagicKirin and powermeerkat, are keen to talk about anything other than the subject of the post. MK is currently babbling about Venezuela as usual, powermeerkat about why whites are leaving South Africa. What they will not face is the responsibility of the US right for the hate-filled rhetoric of "treason", "taking back our country" and "second amendment solutions"; and Obama as an "illegitimate" President, a "secret Muslim", or a "Marxist dictator".

    Now I must go and do something more productive.

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  • 410. At 3:49pm on 09 Jan 2011, MrWonderfulReality wrote:

    385. At 3:09pm on 09 Jan 2011, Kentucker wrote:
    367. At 2:38pm on 09 Jan 2011, Dai the Tie wrote:
    My sympathies go out to all those that have suffered loss as a result of this but just remember... Those that live by the sword will perish from it.

    //////////////////

    How profound. I wish I had thought of that!

    ====================================

    But none of those injured/killed were Romans!!!

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  • 411. At 3:53pm on 09 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    383 deanarabin...asks why the BBC gives such prominence to this story.... and American Grizzly ponders what would have happened if we British hadn`t ruined our economy and lost our empire by fighting Hitler and nearly losing the Second world War.

    The BBC is trying to place itself as global broadcaster and while the USA is the superpwer and happens to use the English language "our" BBC will be your only left wing US broadcaster....whether you like it or not Dean.

    Griz...I think if we had joined up with the Germans instead of fighting them we would be level pegging with you at running the world to this day and I do wonder if the Holocaust or the Soviet Union would have happened at all....because Russia would have stayed within her pre 1939 border and a deal would have been done to relocate the Jews from Eastern Europe into Britain and the USA and Canada and Australia.

    But that`s hindsight...and we live in the real world as it is!

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  • 412. At 3:53pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    , KG wrote:
    [of course slandering America and Americans is NOT slanderous. ;-)] - powermeerkat

    Powermeerkat gets something right! Hold the front page!!! It is indeed, not legally possible to slander either a country, or its citizen body as a whole.



    But that does nor prevent some America-haters from across the Pond to present America and Americans in the worst light possible. (sour grapes?)


    I remember KGB used pay people in W. Europe to do that. But than of course there are always some 'useful idiots' (to use Lenin's expression) who'll do that for free.

    For as PT Barnaum famously observed: "A sucker is born every minute".

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  • 413. At 3:53pm on 09 Jan 2011, Northeast wrote:

    Everybody here has a gun. Originally it was to protect our land from your "Queen". We are armed to the teeth now. Nut job people use their arms now to shoot anyone who doesn't belive with them. This is insane. And the US news is sorta crazy to combine Politics into this. It was a crime. And more people died than that Congresswoman. I heard a 9 yr. old child died in this. Am I the only person praying for her family?

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  • 414. At 3:54pm on 09 Jan 2011, NameAgain wrote:

    29. At 10:42pm on 08 Jan 2011, Gorkem wrote:
    We in Turkey had "hit lists" given by the v-akit newspaper.They have killed Ahmet Taner Kışlalı. Some unwise people think that it would not do anything, apparently they are wrong. I am so upset that a 40 year old politician who promised a great future, who won elections against the Tea Party is dead. Unfortunately world has more "unwise" people now than ever, a bad future is coming.


    -------

    You are too cunning to be a Turk.

    and other commentators..could you please simplify your views and write in a couple if sentences? this is absolute waste. You are creating enough paragraphs to kill an army of elephants.

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  • 415. At 3:56pm on 09 Jan 2011, Rajiv wrote:

    Why is American political discourse so polarised? Why is so little of the debate sane and level-headed? I would have expected it to be otherwise in a "developed" society! And add to that lax gun-control, these sort of incidents should not be surprising at all. Going by the debate raging after this incident it is very obvious that nothing is going to change. The only hope for the US is a great leader who can talk calmly, sensibly, honestly, and carry most of this country with him/her.

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  • 416. At 3:59pm on 09 Jan 2011, McJakome wrote:

    249. At 11:40am on 09 Jan 2011, KG wrote: “a large chunk of the west had not been claimed by any European state before its conquest by the USA. Hawaii was an independent kingdom until American settlers first overthrew the monarchy in 1893, then got it annexed by the USA in 1898.”

    You got the second part right, but neglected to mention that President Cleveland tried to reverse the takeover, except that the “Off with their heads” notion of Queen Liliuokalani caused him to wash his hands of it instead.

    The first part, though, is completely wrong, if not mendacious. All of the western part of the continent was claimed by Spain [this claim inherited by Mexico], Russia and England.

    The natives did not fancy being colonized by any of these, including Mexico. The Texan settlers who revolted against Mexico were supported by many native Tejanos [look up Juan Seguin]. As for stealing the land from Mexico, not guilty, because we stole it from the natives that they [Mexicans and Spaniards] were unsuccessfully trying to steal it from. I am not defending what the US did, just pointing out your incorrect history.

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  • 417. At 4:09pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Cindy Unvericht wrote:
    "Febrile Politics" what a strange word to use in describing the political atmosphere in the United States considering the discord around the rest of the world. The youth of Great Britain and France are in the streets violently protesting against their respective governments, the citizens of Greece are violently protesting against the austerity measures imposed by their corrupt government, citizen unrest exists in Sweden, Sudan, Thailand, Ireland and the list goes on because the people of the world are tired of being used by their governments to further their own personal agendas and abusing the power they've been given to represent the people.




    Cindy, please note a pattern : One of the first things every totalitarian/authoritarian regime does after gaining power by hook or by crook is to DISARM the populus. So that citizens would have no chance against regime which subjugates and opresses them.

    [police, army and secret service being the only outfits with arms]

    Lenin (and later Stalin) did that in Bolshevik Russia/USSR, Hitler in Nazi Germany, Mao in PRC, Pol Pot in Cambodia, Castro in Cuba, etc.

    Forget Iran, Ivory Coast, North Korean Gulag, Sudan or Zimbabwe.

    Take Europe...

    Who in EU will attempt to kick out unelected commissars in Brussels or force their governments to get out of euro zone - armed only with knives?

    [it's one thing to be brave, another - suicidal.]

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  • 418. At 4:12pm on 09 Jan 2011, eisimp wrote:

    Blame can be appropriate or inappropriate and I believe I appropriately blame a number of commentators and politicos on the right for this violent act by what appears to be a disturbed rightist. The right is willfully obtuse about the foreseeable consequences, in a country full of guns -- which easily come into the hands of unstable people -- of intense, vitriolic political rhetoric that routinely makes reference to guns, gunfire, and gun-violence to inspire its supporters' political resistance to the agenda of the left. Passionate but stable people on the right will understand that it's rhetoric and you're not supposed to actually get a gun and shoot the Democrats but there's no excuse for not recognizing that there are unstable people on the right who will hear the rhetoric as justifying violence. Guns (e.g.: let's get our supporters together for a shoot) and gun references ("reload") and analogies to war have no place in political events and normal political discourse in electoral campaigns because of how these events speak to extremists. Sadly, they have become features of how candidates on the American right run campaigns, with no regard for the obvious risks. In the intense political climate we have today it is essential to take guns and references to violent action out of the political discourse and today these references are found almost exclusively in the discourse of the American right. The right frightens me as a group because there is not only little or no effort to police the loonies, there is too much language and style in the rhetoric of the right that can encourage a loonie's impulse to violence.

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  • 419. At 4:16pm on 09 Jan 2011, Simorgh wrote:

    Apparently this Jared Loughner is a young man with "a troubled past" and has been identified as someone in need of serious professional help. Why has no one asked the question, how it is that a person like this has access to a semi-automatic gun? This tragic event is yet another example of why the United States needs gun control.

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  • 420. At 4:16pm on 09 Jan 2011, rumpunch wrote:

    I would say that a sizable minority feel totally alienated from the Federal Government in Arizona re immigration and security.Holder and Napolitano and Obama will not listen and do not care - when you are not heard and you can be seen to never be listened to - what do you do? Add someone with mental problems and a gun - stuff like this will be happening on and off over the next decade - its America for "goodness" sake!!

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  • 421. At 4:16pm on 09 Jan 2011, 982Ray wrote:

    I recently watched Stephen on HardTalk talking to the the CON Linda Chavez. The question was "when will this political rhetoric stop?" She was defiant, and I will never forget the answer which astounded me: "you call it rhetoric we call it vigorous debate and we love it over here".

    What a price to pay for such "vigorous debate!" Its pretty obvious that one way or the other, such a poisoned political climate has its consequences as seen here.

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  • 422. At 4:19pm on 09 Jan 2011, offinthewilds wrote:

    For many, the act itself is a sign of mental disturbance. To a point this is true. However, this does not mean that he didn't have philosophical or political motivations. Many people seem to desperately hope this wasn't political. They hope we can dismiss him as a solitary nutcase, not the surfacing of views held only slightly more moderately by many, some of them in positions of authority. Lougner's web postings are full of political references. The same themes are expressed frequently by the right wing media and many Tea Party types, just usually with better composition. I think the Right is miss directed and dangerous. But I don't think it is productive or wise to dismiss them as unhinged.

    #155, is "Neural Linguistic Programming" the same as "Mind Control ... by controlling grammar(Lougner's phrase.)"

    #330 and others, Every day has victims, and they are all tragic. Our excessive febrilizing is over the death of a fantasy. We've all expected something like this all along. It's happened before. It could have been worse. It will happen again. The cat is out of the bag, or should I say the hood is off.

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  • 423. At 4:20pm on 09 Jan 2011, inacasino wrote:

    Assassinations seems to be rather frequent in the USA, no?

    So much so that it might be considered part of the culture.

    Whatever way you play it, left or right, Democrat or Repuplican, the entire countries reputation just slipped further down the scale.

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  • 424. At 4:20pm on 09 Jan 2011, matt-stone wrote:

    IS THIS GUNMAN A TERRORIST ??......yes, he could be. But remember he's one of ours. Not the kind you find elsewhere, perhaps, in the Middle East who worship a different religion from our own. Besides, all US citizens have the right to bear arms which comes in handy if you're trying to put across your point in a more emphatic manner.
    If this fella is just a nutcase whip into profound hatred by political opponents of the Obama admin, then we should be pointing fingers at the likes of The Tea Party, Neo-Cons, the Right Wing Republicans and above all at Sarah Palins and her over the top, stop-at-nothing kind of rhetorics we witness from her campaigning all the time. Sending condolences to realtives of the gun victims is not to be recommended; the Americans still haven't learned after assasinations of the Kennedy brothers.

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  • 425. At 4:21pm on 09 Jan 2011, ask4j wrote:

    This is definitely a response to the highly charged politically motivated movements of the tea party. Anger, hatred, racism, killing, death--these are all tools to "get what you want at any costs". History proves it--many and there are MANY political leaders that have been killed by "lunatics" but who are behind them and who is paying the bill? Not all nut cases are political, agree, but this one definitely stinks.

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  • 426. At 4:22pm on 09 Jan 2011, Slave to the System - I am not a number wrote:

    Guns dont kill people, people kill people....
    Buys a car get a free gun ... is another one.

    Only in America. When will they ever learn.


    No further comment for fear of moderation...

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  • 427. At 4:25pm on 09 Jan 2011, NameAgain wrote:

    203. At 10:29am on 09 Jan 2011, KG wrote:
    "Well only one or some portion of the personalities inside a paranoid schizoid" - NameAgain

    You've no idea what you're talking about: schizophrenia has nothing whatever to do with the alleged phenomenon of multiple personality.


    ================

    Yes, and how crazy it would be of me to try again to talk from here with a person who is claiming to be an expert on multiple personalities.

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  • 428. At 4:26pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 429. At 4:26pm on 09 Jan 2011, steve1955 wrote:

    How long before this happens in this country politicians should not promise the people what they cant deliver or change their promises do we want to descend to the depths of america where people who are not happy with their lifes take it out on others

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  • 430. At 4:27pm on 09 Jan 2011, Lenispal wrote:


    According to the Washington Wire 2008 Obama said of his Republican rivals, Palin and McCann;

    “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said at a Philadelphia fundraiser Friday night. “Because from what I understand folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”
    The comment drew some laughs and applause. But it also struck a chord with his Republican rival. John McCain’s campaign immediately accused the Democratic candidate of playing the politics of fear. They also mentioned that Obama said he would use a gun that would be illegal under Obama’s plans to cut down on illegal firearms'.

    The gun rhetoric is employed by all and it is hypocritical to pin it on to Palin and her supporters.

    Come to think of it, so called liberal politicians and femisogynists have excelled themselves in the production of sexist rants against Palin and her family.

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  • 431. At 4:27pm on 09 Jan 2011, 982Ray wrote:

    Recently I watched Stephen talking to Linda Chavez on HardTalk. One of the questions was "when will this political rhetoric stop?".
    I still remember the answer quite clearly: "you call it political rhetoric we call it vigorous debate!"

    What a price to pay for having 'rigorous debates'.

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  • 432. At 4:27pm on 09 Jan 2011, razant wrote:

    All this stuff about Palin is somewhat all over the board (somewhat like her targets) but I think what those who criticize this woman for is, this is the type of irresponsible decision-making you can expect from her. Her actions were during an election, was she trying to be tough? What can anyone expect from her in a time of international conflict? Bring on the Nukes? But you have to remember....there is 50% of the population who will vote her in over a Democrat. It says a lot for this nation.

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  • 433. At 4:32pm on 09 Jan 2011, Miguel wrote:

    384 Gary wrote: "I suggest those who want to make political 'hay' out of this return to their normal facebook pages and leave the analysis to the grown-ups."

    Gary, How can you not make political hay out of the attempted murder and shooting of a politician and judge? I think the problem with republicans is a hay term "hardseededness". Hardseededness - A physiological condition of seed in which a proportion of viable seeds do not immediately absorb water or oxygen, delaying germination.

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  • 434. At 4:34pm on 09 Jan 2011, matt-stone wrote:

    AmericanGrizzly @ 386.....You wrote:...."By the way Gandhi told the British not to resist Hitler. Wonder how that one would have worked out."

    The cryptic answer to that is:..."We probably wouldn't have the turmoils we're having in the Middle East now !! ..."

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  • 435. At 4:43pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    champagne_charlie wrote:
    #376

    powermeerkat;

    "[If I had a good job in the U.K. I'd simply carry TWO knives.]"

    Its 5 years for carrying, I dont know if they'd give you 10 for carrying two...


    Charlie, better even 10 years in a slammer than an eternity in a coffin (courtesy of some British thu.,..er... hooligans).

    But that was of course just one of my little jokes you've mentioned.
    [and are by now accustomed to]

    I'd of course simply carry at least my Glock. With a silencer.

    And I'd simply luuuve to see anybody trying to take it away from me.

    Yes, sirree, it would "make my day"! :-)


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  • 436. At 4:46pm on 09 Jan 2011, Kaliyug wrote:

    This is one of the saddest days in America, a young lady with potential to be the next President, is in critical condition because of guns in the hands of misfits. Where will be the balance between owning a gun and owning up to its responsibilities of ownership meet? Then there are others who also died and were injured. We all love open forums that give us an opportunity to be impromptu, even this segment of democracy will be lost with this dastardly behavior. I am also surprised that the college knew about his mental problems, whereas he was able to obtain a gun and use it.
    I am deeply saddened about how our liberties are being eroded by irresponsible actions by some.

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  • 437. At 4:49pm on 09 Jan 2011, StandsWithAGist wrote:

    Thank you for pointing out that the Left's reaction is a part of the problem. I've stopped going to one of my favorite left-leaning websites because of their one-sided rhetoric and politicalization of what is obviously - read Loughner's videos and his mental disturbance is clear and unambiguous - an violent action by someone with emotional and cognitive problems.

    I hate the vitriol of the Right and the demagogues who spout it, but to blame this shooting on them is as wrong as would have been jailing Salinger when Chapman shot Lennon...

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  • 438. At 4:50pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 439. At 4:50pm on 09 Jan 2011, mabelwhite wrote:

    Here is an article describing numerous candidates who used AK47's and other gun imagery in their campaign ads

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129302293

    Gifford's opponent held an event 6/10/10 called "Get on Target for Victory in November Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office Shot a fully automatic M15 with Jesse Kelly"

    Here is a photo of Giffords holding one

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/gabriellegiffords/3904501891/

    I think the main issue here is to raise the intellect of the masses - y'all don't help any with your "left-right" "liberal-conservative" limited breadth of thought and analysis. Try not using illiterate labels for a day - see if you have anything left to say.

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  • 440. At 4:53pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    AmericanGrizzly's appreciation:

    "At least you picked the right word for the liberals here Mark, febrile, and all knowing."



    This meerkat's afraid we may need a FEBRILATOR!

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  • 441. At 4:55pm on 09 Jan 2011, tjweadockjr wrote:

    Well said!!!

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  • 442. At 4:55pm on 09 Jan 2011, Leviticus wrote:

    409. At 3:46pm on 09 Jan 2011, KG wrote:
    //////////////////
    How pathetically sick in trying to make political capital out of a terrible tragedy.

    You don't of course read some of the hate filled rhetoric that has been directed at Sarah Palin and some other women Republicans contending in the US political process by various sections of the mainstream US TV and print media?

    The left are hardly in a position to adopt any position of moral superiority when it comes to the speaking of hate filled rhetoric.

    And the BBC have not let the blood dry before doing the same.





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  • 443. At 4:56pm on 09 Jan 2011, randywiz81 wrote:

    Here in the United States, we have been so insistent on the continuation of thought that we need to distance ourselves from England as much as possible as was directed by our founding fathers, that we refuse to accept that some things about Early English Law actually made sense. We have too many guns in private ownership in this country. Naturally the constitutional amendment allowing our people to own firearms was a response to preventing our government from becoming so much more powerful than it's own people, that a rise against tyranny within our body of government would be impossible. The reality is that the outcome of the civil war, though fought for a noble cause, proved and end to that theory. The reality is that ideal is obsolete. The US Government will always be better armed than it’s people due to the advances of science and the military. So the excuse that guns are a civil right is out of date. As is the case in the U.K., crime will always exist, however removing the cache of arms held in private hands will decrease the incidences of violent acts by individuals. Rod Serling had it right. “The Monsters are due on Maple Street”.

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  • 444. At 4:59pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re "The Communist Manifesto,
    Mein Kampf" being among the shooter's favorites.



    I would not blame the shooter for reading the Communist Manifesto anymore I'd blame him for reading "Mein Kampf"

    The author of the first was a Socialist; of the second one - a national Socialist.

    As they say in some parts - "same difference".

    [[particularly judging by deadly consquences of both]

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  • 445. At 5:00pm on 09 Jan 2011, Miguel wrote:

    From former Presidential Candidate Gary Hart in the Huffington Post: "Gradually, over time, political rhetoric used by politicians and the media has become more inflamatory. The degree to which violent words and phrases are considered commonplace is striking. Candidates are "targeted". An opponent is "in the crosshairs". Liberals have to be
    "eliminated". Opponents are "enemies". This kind of language eminates largely from those who claim to defend American democracy against those who would destroy it, who are evil, and who want to "take away our freedoms".

    Today we have seen the results of this rhetoric. Those with a megaphone, whether provided by public office or a media outlet, have responsibilities. They cannot avoid the consequences of their blatant efforts to inflame, anger, and outrage. We all know that there are unstable and potentially dangerous people among us. To repeatedly appeal to their basest instincts is to invite and welcome their predictable violence.

    So long as we all tolerate this kind of irresponsible and dangerous rhetoric or, in the case of some commentators, treat it with delight, reward it, and consider it cute, so long will we place all those in public life, whom the provocateurs dislike, in the crosshairs of danger.

    That this is carried out, and often rewarded, in the name of the Constitution, democratic rights and liberties, and patriotism is a mockery of all this nation claims to believe and almost all of us continue to struggle to preserve. America is better than this."

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  • 446. At 5:02pm on 09 Jan 2011, worcesterjim wrote:

    We keep talking about the left and right of politics.... but there is no working class politics remaining!

    The only political card game in town is extremist free market capitalism ...that talks about looking after America ...but betrays its interests at every turn by exporting its jobs and investment money to Asia ...and letting more and more people into a country that has millions of unemployed already.

    You are all fighting each other while capitalism quietly leaves town and moves to Asia....using the free market principles so many of you swear by....is that dumb or dumber?

    What would happen if the sort of "right wing" ideas that so many of you sneer at were to just stop fighting ...and let the so called "left" (based on the ideas of folk like Friedman and Soros) have their way?

    Well first of all the third world has billions of desparate people who would be heading your way tomorrow if organised crime and the liberals could find a way to get them across your borders.

    Then there`s the other "minor" problem....what would they do to support themselves if there`s no paid work available?

    Just use your imaginations on that because the sanctimonious left of politics will not be wanting to dwell on that ...any more than it has answers to the longer term consequences of anything else it pontificates about.If the so called American left had a free hand you have the entire third world on its way to the USA.

    You folks need to quit arguing about your fantasy political differences and turn your joint energies to facing your future in a frre market world in which you are now slaves ....run by and for the benefit of Asians not Americans.

    You never ever lived in a real democracy and if your elite in Washington and Wall Street continue to run the show there`s a real and present danger you never will.

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  • 447. At 5:04pm on 09 Jan 2011, elfordtucson wrote:

    The shooter's weird language (e.g. on currency) reflects common ranting on right wing radio.

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  • 448. At 5:06pm on 09 Jan 2011, JobyJak wrote:

    Why is the injured Congresswoman much more important than the other people who have died, including a 9 year old girl?

    All the headlines just mention the injury she has suffered and then as a secondary headline, they mention the 5 people dead.

    This comes from the Associated Press and is fed to the BBC, Fox etc.

    The AP likes to convince the mass public that some people are more important than others, and they are all part of a globalist conspiracy movement that involves brainwashing us that The Royal Family, Government Officials etc are much more important than ordinary people.

    This is mass culture brainwashing and we need to wake up, most people cannot see this.

    I would not be so offended, if the headline had read 9 year old girl dies and congresswoman injured in shooting, but the fact a normal 9 year old girl getting killed is just a tiny part of a story involving a congresswoman getting injured, is just plain wrong on so many levels.

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  • 449. At 5:08pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    , KG wrote:
    "If I had a good job in the U.K. I'd simply carry TWO knives." - powermeerkat

    Which would be illegal: carrying an offensive weapon can attract a substantial jail term. Please, stay away.






    " A god job in the UK"? Are you kiddin' me?

    At least 15% of NHS physicians have already inquired about requirements for getting a work permit and a medical licence which would allow them to practice in them decaying United States.

    Where, to boot, they pay folks in 'worthless' US$$$$$s , rather than in fast appreciating euros. :-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))


    BTW. Quite a few British arlines' pilots have been inquiring too.

    As far as I'm concerned they are welcome to the U.S.

    [Those after RAF service are quite all right. :-)]

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  • 450. At 5:08pm on 09 Jan 2011, NameAgain wrote:

    Who is this Mark Mardell person? Instead of putting their name on top of all names in here why havent they gone and protected their congress woman? I sure dont like him.

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  • 451. At 5:08pm on 09 Jan 2011, Aneeta Trikk wrote:

    "Febrile politics of Giffords shooting"

    The US may have a problem with some people and guns, but it is a very much more serious problem for those who believe this mindless shooting was motivated by a "hit list" political campaign. The free world shudders whenever someone is murdered or maimed in the name of democracy.

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  • 452. At 5:15pm on 09 Jan 2011, forclarification wrote:

    408. At 3:46pm on 09 Jan 2011, John_from_Hendon wrote:
    #400 continued...

    We could also:
    - Bar all US citizens from entry into Europe....
    - Close down all direct flights...
    - Forbid the import of goods...
    - Ban the export of all goods (including anything with a potential military use)...
    - Immediately pull out of all joint military enterprises...

    How else can we persuade the USA that their mass personal possession of lethal weaponry is abhorrent?
    ===========================================
    And what business is it of ours?

    We could also:

    Get out of cloud cuckoo land and suggest something vaguely rational

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  • 453. At 5:17pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    KG: "the same is true for the Russians in much of Alaska - so in both those cases, it was indeed the USA that did the bulk of the dsispossession of the earlier inhabitants."




    What earlier inhabitants in Alaska, I pray?

    The only 'natives' there at the time were grizzlies and caribous.

    As I've already commented:

    Nice try, but no cigar. :-)


    [of course much later we've discovered that there were quite a few oil fields there all the time. Hiding under a permafrost, almost like illegal aliens in Arizona, New Mexico, S. California, and Texas deserts.]

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  • 454. At 5:18pm on 09 Jan 2011, saffler wrote:

    I guess i'm not the only one to wonder what role their apparent brainwashing of their children has in 'all this'. Also one gets a sense of sentimentality mixed with brutality (hypocrisy?) in the UK-tv image of the USA (as opposed to the USA in itself), so this makes me concerned about their quality of education in general.

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  • 455. At 5:19pm on 09 Jan 2011, Lenispal wrote:

    418. At 4:12pm on 09 Jan 2011, eisimp wrote:Blame can be appropriate or inappropriate and I believe I appropriately blame a number of commentators and politicos on the right for this violent act by what appears to be a disturbed rightist. The right is willfully obtuse about the foreseeable consequences, in a country full of guns -- which easily come into the hands of unstable people -- of intense, vitriolic political rhetoric that routinely makes reference to guns, gunfire, and gun-violence to inspire its supporters' political resistance to the agenda of the left. Passionate but stable people on the right will understand that it's rhetoric and you're not supposed to actually get a gun and shoot the Democrats but there's no excuse for not recognizing that there are unstable people on the right who will hear the rhetoric as justifying violence. Guns (e.g.: let's get our supporters together for a shoot) and gun references ("reload") and analogies to war have no place in political events and normal political discourse in electoral campaigns because of how these events speak to extremists. Sadly, they have become features of how candidates on the American right run campaigns, with no regard for the obvious risks. In the intense political climate we have today it is essential to take guns and references to violent action out of the political discourse and today these references are found almost exclusively in the discourse of the American right. The right frightens me as a group because there is not only little or no effort to police the loonies, there is too much language and style in the
    ----------------------------------------------------
    Well written,
    Now see my post 430 where I note how MCann complained about Obama's use of gun and knife rhetoric when he spoke at a rally where he used mobster's argument when he criticised Palin and MCcann. He said 'if they bring a knife, we bring a gun'. The left wing audience thought it was very funny.

    I suspect, like several other posters here that you are making a political point against your right wing opponents. Well that's politicsI guess.

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  • 456. At 5:21pm on 09 Jan 2011, Simple_USA_Man wrote:

    The cross-hair poster is not the only thing calling for violence that Sarah Palin has said or posted. Her recent comments about Assange is just another example.

    It is sad to see so many adults in my country who believe in, and follow such an ignorant and mediocre personality.

    This woman needs to understand that most of her followers are shallow-minded people, with low-levels of education, and disturbed personalities who take her "blunders" seriously, and will act on them violently.

    She needs to understand that her guns are legal for hunting in the woods of Alaska, but they are not legal to shoot or kill political rivals.

    There are better, more rational, more ethical, and more democratic ways to pursue her political agendas.

    The day she is elected to become a president of this country, God forbids, is the day I'd rather move South to Mexico.
    Life under the control of the drug cartels would be more tolerable than life under Palin's leadership.

    It's so sad to see that failin' Palin and the likes have become prominent figures in the politics of America.

    What happened to the country that produced Grant, Lincoln, JFK, and the likes!!!

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  • 457. At 5:22pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    KG wrote:
    "And whites are not leaving South Africa 'cause they're poor.
    Reverse apartheid might have something to do with their exodus." - powermeerkat

    The claim of "reverse apartheid" is an absurd and monstrous falsehood. White South Africans remain on average much better off than any others, and suffer no restrictions whatever on their activities because of their race.




    Sure, that's exactly what I would say if my name was Mbeki. :-)

    [I'd skip massive robberies and rapes on white women's issue as well]


    Now I finally understand Boer Wars' rationale.

    You were simply trying to prevent future apartheid, right? :-)))

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  • 458. At 5:26pm on 09 Jan 2011, LALondoner wrote:

    This will give the anti-2nd amendment hysterics something to chew on for months. Of course the only valid comments, the only ones which count, are those from Americans. All others please refrain, as this really isn't your business, is it??

    Get on the stick, mods, I know it's Sunday, but you people are supposed to be working 24/7/365 - get to it!!!

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  • 459. At 5:29pm on 09 Jan 2011, Gruffydd ap Llywelyn wrote:

    405. At 3:43pm on 09 Jan 2011, Kentucker wrote:
    So how does the US homicide rate compare with Mexico/Colombia/Brazil?

    And is this any different to the recent political assassination in Pakistan and previously Benazir Bhutto. And wasn't Indira Ghandi assassinated and then her brother?

    But of course being the US it deserves greater criticism?


    I think you'll find it was Indira Ghandi's son, not her brother that was also assassinated. HTH?

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  • 460. At 5:32pm on 09 Jan 2011, Keith M wrote:

    While the cross-hair motive is not unique to Palin's messages, it can well be construed as representing a gun-sight when related to her self proclaimed support of firearms and hunting - particularly disturbing if it turns red when the objective of a particular campaign is reached.

    It was also interesting to note that Palin's public statement regarding the shooting offered her "condolences", usually reserved to comment on a death. This suggests "shooting from the hip" based on erroneous reports that the congresswoman had indeed died. Poor judgement at the very least.

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  • 461. At 5:32pm on 09 Jan 2011, LALondoner wrote:

    The debate in the US has certainly deteriorated into incivility and nastiness to say the least over the past decade or so. It has NOT, however, been all on the side of the right wing.

    Anyone remember the 'Support Bush' bumper sticker? YOu know the one that showed a noose dangling by his name??? Very popular among educated, elitist followers on the left.....But then, people, left or right, always think that whatever *their* opinion, it is always acceptable - it is only those who disagree with them who are to be critised.

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  • 462. At 5:41pm on 09 Jan 2011, stingfan1 wrote:

    Agree #224

    This is a local/national American news story, of little significance to anyone over here. Hardly world news. It is of course very sad what has happened, and I wish her and the victims' families well - but take a look at the rest of the world news today: shootings in Niger (French hostages), Guatemala - 14 dead.. why don't we discuss these? They seem to have the same news thread - guns, tragedy, mindless killings. I am sure if this sad event was over here CNN wouldn't be running a news thread of this magnitude - and why should they?

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  • 463. At 5:41pm on 09 Jan 2011, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref 409
    KG wrote:
    I'll just note once more that the chief standardbearers of the right here, such as MagicKirin and powermeerkat, are keen to talk about anything other than the subject of the post. MK is currently babbling about Venezuela as usual, powermeerkat about why whites are leaving South Africa. What they will not face is the responsibility of the US right for the hate-filled rhetoric of "treason", "taking back our country" and "second amendment solutions"; and Obama as an "illegitimate" President, a "secret Muslim", or a "Marxist dictator".

    Now I must go and do something more productive.

    ______________

    like getting news from a relliable source and learning that your American hate filled diatrabes make you as emotianly stable as the AZ shooter.

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  • 464. At 5:45pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    "I recently watched Stephen on HardTalk talking to the the CON Linda Chavez. The question was "when will this political rhetoric stop?" She was defiant, and I will never forget the answer which astounded me: "you call it rhetoric we call it vigorous debate and we love it over here".



    Linda Chavez, a LATINO American might have also told Stephen than anybody in any U.S. southern state promoting legalization of and even a fast path to U.S. citizenship Obama-style for illegal (often criminal) aliens flooding the region - is simply asking for it.

    For the locals have been abused and intimidated for way too long.

    And if Federal Government is not willing to do anything about it those states will do something on their own.

    And Arizona, California, Florida, New Mexico and Texas have much more power and influence than small states of poor Confederacy ever had.

    And it won't be too difficult for them to find another gen. Lee.

    Sapienti sat.

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  • 465. At 5:46pm on 09 Jan 2011, Riggadon wrote:

    I could care less. Every day, thousands of people get shot, killed, raped, tortured. Probably hundreds of thousands in fact. It's a nasty world.

    Nobody seems to care about covering any of those other tragic stories, involving real people with real lives and feelings, so why should I care that someone from politics got it? Not just someone from politics, but an American no less.

    If this had of happened to someone in politics in some tiny empoverished country, it would have had minimal coverage and then the world would have moved on after a day or so, if they barely stopped to acknowledge it in the first place.

    So honestly, this might sound bad, but I really dont care.

    When the media starts to show a bit of balance then I will start caring.

    This woman I assume was from a wealthy background, or at the least had access to wealth, so I'm sure she's recieving the very best treatment.

    Honestly, when it comes to whats happening in the world, I care more about people who trully cannot defend themselves, people who have no wealth. You want me to feel sorry for someone? I feel sorry for the ladies in Africa being trapped as sex slaves. A trully despicable crime, but the only coverage that stuff gets is the occasional blog that nobody bothers to read. And yet some american politician gets shot, and I have to have it rammed down my throat for 3 days straight.

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  • 466. At 5:51pm on 09 Jan 2011, LALondoner wrote:

    Come in No. 400 - your time is up!! Johnfromhendon, we in the US are all extremely gratified that you at least will not be visiting us over here in our 'failed state'. And we are more than happy to reciprocate - even those of us, who like myself, enjoy the 'privilege' of dual nationality, complete with 2 passports (you couldn't keep me out anyway, even should I wish ever to venture into your knife crime ridden, CCTV bristling, extremist islamic jihadist midden of a society)....

    So that's a promise then?? We won't be seeing your pious, smug, self congratulatory mug passing through the aliens entry at Kennedy??? Yippeeee!!!!

    Oh yeah, and whatever happened to your right to remain silent upon arrest??

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  • 467. At 5:52pm on 09 Jan 2011, steve wrote:

    Would of been nice in the spirit of Journalism .. to mention that the Democratic Leadership Committee also had a map with Targets / Bullseyes on it > it was on their offical website ... and given Sarah Palin is a private citizen and the this was the Democratic Leadership Committe > offically linked to democratic party ... Well you get the point
    -------------
    This may be true or not however,it is the far right that is most associated with the gun lobby in the USA and it is the far right that has been implicated in the majority of the attacks undertaken by American citizens against their government and institutions.

    Also it is worth considering that despite the fact that the gun lobby would believe that all Americans wish to own firearms less than a third of them actually do but this figure is in general far higher in gun toting Republican voting bible belt states.

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  • 468. At 5:52pm on 09 Jan 2011, bostonjohn8 wrote:

    I am so sick of hearing all of you people generalizing an entire country under the blanket statement of Americans are a bunch of gun crazed lunatics. Unless you really know all the facts, you should keep your opinions quiet. The fact is, the US is too big. I live in Massachusetts, I do not know anyone who owns a gun. Most people in the Northeast think owning a gun is pointless unless you are a hunter. If you hunt, you own a rifle or a crossbow, not hand gun or an automatic weapon. The problem is, this is not how it is everywhere in the country. Every state has different gun laws and in Massachusetts, it is a lot harder to get a gun license, and it is even harder to carry a concealed weapon. I honestly am sick of all the hate as well, this country is so divided it is sick. I would back, 100% splitting the country up. We in the Northeast will never agree with the Bible belt states. We have different needs then the people in the mid west and so on. When the Constitution was written, it was a different world. I agree the 2nd amendment needs to be changed, but honestly, if guns were totally illegal, do you really think people who wanted to kill would stop killing? They would find guns, or they would make a bomb or use a knife. Criminals are criminals because they want to break laws. I know for a fact that 99% of the people in this country who own guns, do not kill people, or ever would think of killing people. By law you have to have your gun locked up at home and transported not loaded. If you had a home invasion, the gun would probably be useless by the time you pulled it out of the safe, put it together, and loaded it. Like I said, I don't like guns, I don't own one and never will. However, to say that all Americans carry guns and want to kill humans with them is absurd.

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  • 469. At 5:53pm on 09 Jan 2011, wigan winge wrote:

    typical of american way of life if you dont like it destroy it
    when will america learn guns are for killing This woman was doing what all politicians should do meet the people politics in america are not for the faint hearted

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  • 470. At 5:55pm on 09 Jan 2011, ann arbor wrote:

    I wish Ms. Giffords the best. This event is unacceptable from any perspective.

    Had the shooter shouted something about "Allah", would the TEA party still be condemned?

    Had the representative been conservative, would it have been "understandable" or a "freedom of speech" for many on this blog?

    I will not answer my own questions, but I think the answers are clear.

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  • 471. At 5:55pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    Dr. Lllaregubb wrote:

    'Don't impeach Bush, execute him'.





    Yes I remember those slogans and posters fomenting hatred and violence.

    As well as some foreign correspondents in Washington, D.C adding Hiler-like moustaches on 'W"' visages in their offices.

    [yes, they know who they are]

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  • 472. At 5:57pm on 09 Jan 2011, monkeydrivel wrote:

    Your still here! thank goodness, I just recommended you to a number of friends.

    453, perfect. keep up the good work, I'm sure we'll be able to count on you like the tides.

    I mean KG even signed off, but we still need a good debate right?

    lets suss out the truth!

    carry on brave souls, carry on!

    I gotta go again, but hope that when I check later tonight, you've sussed it out.

    cheers

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  • 473. At 5:57pm on 09 Jan 2011, Miguel wrote:

    461 Londoner wrote: Anyone remember the 'Support Bush' bumper sticker? YOu know the one that showed a noose dangling by his name???

    I don't remember it, however if rope is outlawed only outlaws will have rope!

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  • 474. At 5:57pm on 09 Jan 2011, Merkels Moneypouch wrote:

    Firstly, my condolences to the families involved.

    Secondly, in the interests of reasoned debate: I have to ask myself what would I rather have? A gun to protect myself from lunatics who were free to walk the streets... (and I note that this guy wasn't shot by anyone defending themselves)

    Or a decent state-funded healthcare system that treats and deals with those with mental problems, and firearms laws which mean that they are extremely few and far between, and that public shootings like this are 1000s of times rarer than those which we see regularly across the pond...

    Perhaps this may shed some light on exactly why we don't agree with Americans on things such as healthcare and gun control. Any thoughts?

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  • 475. At 5:58pm on 09 Jan 2011, wolfvorkian wrote:

    Chryses wrote:

    Many events follow sequential patterns without being causally related. The post hoc ergo propter hoc (after this therefore because of this) fallacy is based upon the mistaken notion that simply because one thing happens after another, the first event was a cause of the second event. Post hoc reasoning is the basis for many superstitions and erroneous beliefs.

    Tell this to the advertising parasites on Madison Avenue.

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  • 476. At 6:00pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Life under the control of the drug cartels would be more tolerable than life under Palin's leadership."







    Spoken like a narcotraficante wannabe.

    [but then you'd have to get a GUN, and sometimes even USE it. ;-)]

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  • 477. At 6:01pm on 09 Jan 2011, Richard Johnson wrote:

    Mr Mardell you say " But the impression is of unbalanced incoherence rather than political grievance." Doesn't that sum up Palin, Bachmann, Angle, Iott and all the others who make up the Tea Party? The political discourse in this nation has to change. Ad hominem character assassinations in the media incite some crazy people to carry them out in real life.

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  • 478. At 6:02pm on 09 Jan 2011, matt-stone wrote:

    Some of the rhetorics of political right wingers of the USA is akin to those of Hitler's Nazi Party. Miss Giffords' mistake wass to support Obama's medicare policies for all. Is Nazism what the American right wingers want the whole world follow, I wonder??

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  • 479. At 6:03pm on 09 Jan 2011, Miguel wrote:

    Stingfan wrote: "why don't we discuss these? They seem to have the same news thread - guns, tragedy, mindless killings. I am sure if this sad event was over here CNN wouldn't be running a news thread of this magnitude - and why should they?"

    It could be because this is a tread on this topic...just a guess.

    However we could discuss why you are a Sting fan?

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  • 480. At 6:05pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:


    LALondonr asks:

    "Anyone remember the 'Support Bush' bumper sticker? YOu know the one that showed a noose dangling by his name??? Very popular among educated, elitist followers on the left"






    Yep, I remember it just as well as that
    "Don't impeach Bush - excute him!"-sign.


    ["How soon they forget!"]

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  • 481. At 6:05pm on 09 Jan 2011, Complete Bob Marley and the Wailers wrote:

    The hate and polarization mobilized by rich special interest groups is deliberately invoking Americans to fight to get their country back from some sort of evil socialist regime. Americans can't get their head around the fact that healthcare reforms, similar to European Countries, are not an evil socialist takeover. All of Palin's Politics stink and everything she stands for is about manifesting the hate to reap political gain .

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  • 482. At 6:06pm on 09 Jan 2011, ann arbor wrote:

    RE: holierthanthou wrote:

    "I have no problem with their gun culture, it seems most of them keep their guns in their homes, cars or holsters. If the majority want to keep the right to bear arms, that is their business and their culture. It is not for us to enforce our ways on other nations."

    ------

    Thank you for that respect. The respect is mutual.

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  • 483. At 6:06pm on 09 Jan 2011, Duckerama wrote:

    QuackQuackQuackQuackQuackQuackQuackQuackQuackQuackQuackQuackers

    435. At 4:43pm on 09 Jan 2011, powermeerkat wrote:

    champagne_charlie wrote:
    #376

    powermeerkat;

    "[If I had a good job in the U.K. I'd simply carry TWO knives.]"

    Its 5 years for carrying, I dont know if they'd give you 10 for carrying two...


    Charlie, better even 10 years in a slammer than an eternity in a coffin (courtesy of some British thu.,..er... hooligans).

    But that was of course just one of my little jokes you've mentioned.
    [and are by now accustomed to]

    I'd of course simply carry at least my Glock. With a silencer.

    And I'd simply luuuve to see anybody trying to take it away from me.

    Yes, sirree, it would "make my day"! :-)

    --------------------------

    Yup, yessiree Robert, lukewarm dickidee doo, quite a few of us limies over here have also played Overlord 2, we're really rather good at it ol' chap.

    Shhhhhhhhhh - Don't tell anyone, but it's just a game, the guns aren't real you know :-)

    QuackQuackQuackQuackQuackQuackQuackQuackQuackQuackQuackQuackers

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  • 484. At 6:12pm on 09 Jan 2011, SPEEDTHRILLS wrote:

    33. At 10:47pm on 08 Jan 2011, ralokan wrote:
    America, please calm down. Stop acting like freaked out teenagers and join the adult world. Then the Sarah Palins will go back to their big-haired airhead beauty contests and let the grown-ups run the place. And people will stop going off half-cocked about why this nutcase did what he did when nobody yet knows the answer to that. It's called a cool head, something Americans have not yet acquired, because they're still in the acne phase of democracy.
    And please, Mark Madell, spare us the linguistic showing off. Everyone will read this kind of story and most will need a dictionary for febrile. Poisoned, feverish, overheated...there are many easy and adequate alternatives. But some people like to say paradigm when model will do just fine.

    __________________________________________________________

    My apologies to all Americans. The above remarks illustrate the need for people to visit the US, travel within them and learn a little before uttering such appalling uniformed rubbish. We, in the UK have also had several instances of mass public shootings in the last few years too and routinely have single shooting victims in our cities.

    For my part I wish Gabrielle a speedy and full recovery. The process of law applicable to the perpetrators are your business and that of no one else.

    Looking forward to my next trip to the US.

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  • 485. At 6:17pm on 09 Jan 2011, Interestedforeigner wrote:

    "Febrile" indeed.

    It is a rare day when I agree with Andrea, but I agree with her post at # 104. We don't have all the facts. It wouldn't hurt to step back and calm down.

    ----------

    I don't believe for a minute that Sarah Palin wanted political adversaries killed or injured.

    Nonetheless, public actors set the tone for public debate.

    Sarah Palin may be stupid, but I don't believe she's heartless. If she's a human being at all, I rather expect she's sick with anguish today over that silly website posting.

    It may be that this foolish woman, and perhaps others, have now learned a terrible lesson about the careless and irresponsible use of inflammatory rhetoric and images.

    There may have been no connection, at all, between her website and this incident. Nonetheless, it would take a pretty thick dose of callousness for anyone with any kind of a conscience not to be consumed with anguish and guilt that there might have been even the smallest chance that there was a connection ... Any human being with a conscience would have immediately resolved never to tempt fate like that again.

    If this woman, and perhaps some others, have now learned even that much, perhaps it will be a first small step on the path to wisdom.

    We'll see if the over-the-top rantings and vilification will now diminish, and whether people in public life and in the media will make a better effort to stick to civil and respectful discussion of issues of public policy.

    (Remember John McCain's comment "No ma'am, you're wrong. ..."? McCain knew what he was talking about.)

    ----------

    On the subject of "febrile", the frenzy of postings overnight and this morning had me thinking that this string was running up its totals pretty fast. So far, the numbers are:

    January 9, 2011 – Febrile Politics of Giffords Shooting

    MM – 2100 GMT – 0

    +1. 2200 – 11 total – 11 per hour
    +2. 2300 – 40 – 29
    +3. 2400 – 59 – 19
    +4. 0100 – 75 – 16
    +5. 0200 – 86 – 11
    +6. 0300 – 101 – 15
    +7. 0400 – 110 – 9
    +8. 0500 – 121 – 11
    +9. 0600 – 127 – 6
    +10. 0700 – 136 – 9
    +11. 0800 – 145 – 10
    +12. 0900 – 155 – 10
    +13. 1000 – 183 – 28
    +14. 1100 – 218 – 35
    +15. 1200 – 257 – 39
    +16. 1300 – 308 – 51
    +17. 1400 – 354 – 46
    +18. 1500 – 381 – 27
    +19. 1600 – 416 – 35
    +20. 1700 – 445 – 29

    This is a high rate of postings (roughly 26/hour) but not the record, (a hair under 29/hour for a complete 24 hour period, I believe). It is also unlikely to match the mid-day high activity record of, I believe, 53/hour.

    The highest activity on this blog was, I believe, the one started by Mark Mardell on Thursday March 11, 2010 entitled “Armed and Ready to Shop”.

    "1014. At 9:37pm on 14 Mar 2010, Interestedforeigner wrote:

    "... There are some topics - like gun control - that, quite predictably, are guaranteed to set off a feeding frenzy of postings."

    That string took just under 15 hours to reach 500 postings;
    690 postings in 24 hours
    894 postings in 48 hours
    988 postings in 72 hours.

    As here, the dominant subject of the postings was gun control.
    As here, there was vastly more heat than light in the postings.


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  • 486. At 6:21pm on 09 Jan 2011, Drooper_ wrote:

    Are they sure this accomplice's name isn't Oswald, or Gulf of Tonkin? Have they tried the movie theaters?

    And will George H.W. Bush be able to remember where he was today?

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  • 487. At 6:23pm on 09 Jan 2011, Texiyank wrote:

    It seems obvious that this young man is mentally disturbed. His incoherent writing shows that. However, the nasty quality and demonizing of the opposition in our political rhetoric, especially on radio and TV, must likely have contributed to this guy's off-kilter thoughts and motivation. Political commentators need to drop the excessive emotional appeals and try to defend their positions by LOGIC. Shouting the loudest in the most "outraged" tone does not prove your point; sound reasoning does, at least for those of us who wish to be thoughtful citizens.

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  • 488. At 6:24pm on 09 Jan 2011, wolfvorkian wrote:

    powermeerkat wrote:

    And Arizona, California, Florida, New Mexico and Texas have much more power and influence than small states of poor Confederacy ever had.

    And it won't be too difficult for them to find another gen. Lee.

    Sapienti sat.


    And the hymn remembering your fantasy Powererkitty will be "Marching through Phoenix, Texas, etc" or just what General?

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  • 489. At 6:25pm on 09 Jan 2011, aphoristic wrote:

    Disturbing that there seems to be more outrage at the wounding of one senator than there would be at the murder of 100 ordinary citizens....

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  • 490. At 6:29pm on 09 Jan 2011, McJakome wrote:

    268. At 12:17pm on 09 Jan 2011, qwerty wrote: “I don't like the way politics has become very personal and very nasty, especially in the United States, but the way the democrats and the left have jumped on this dreadful situation to deflame Sarah Palin is just as bad as the type of rhetoric Mrs Palin herself uses.

    My sincere condolences to the families and friends of all the victims, and lets leave the politics out of this.”

    This post is seriously, internally, conflicted [to be polite]. Criticizing Sarah Palin for her rhetoric is just as bad as her rhetoric? It is not just the one graphic that is the problem with Sara Palin, and those of her ilk, there were the lies about “death panels,” and about the citizenship, legitimacy and constitutional actions of the President.

    This is self aggrandizing, defamatory and mendacious politics by S.P.; and this has contributed very clearly to the current poisonous atmosphere. Why should she not be held accountable for her words and actions? Why should voices of reason be silenced because guilt makes some people uncomfortable?

    As for leaving the politics out of the analysis of a politically motivated crime.......... It would not matter to me, or any reasonable person, what the party affiliation of the victim is. She could have been a left-leaning Democrat, Socialist, Republican or T-Party activist and I would not change one syllable that I have typed about the situation. Everyone even remotely responsible for poisoning the politics of the US must share the guilt and should cease and desist.

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  • 491. At 6:35pm on 09 Jan 2011, McJakome wrote:

    Mr. Mardell,
    Congratulations on hitting more than one nerve. I don't believe I have, in the years I've been reading the BBC, ever seen such a fast and furious response to a topic. I think you may be going for record postings per 24 hr. period. The poisonous atmosphere you reported is here for all the world to see in this blog. Or, it would be but for some *immoderate* reaction. [Double entendre entirely intentional.]

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  • 492. At 6:40pm on 09 Jan 2011, Jackturk wrote:

    394. At 3:24pm on 09 Jan 2011, Dudski wrote:
    "What makes us look ridiculous is that we are a nation who take Rush Limbaugh and Keith Olbermann seriously, not realizing they are the same manipulative hack, just working a different side of the street"

    Sorry Dudski, what makes you look so ridiculous is not realising that Keith Olbermann and Rush Limbaugh are NOT the same manipulative hacks..... Limbaugh is described as a bigoted hate mongering hypocrite, whereas Olbermann has never preached hate but merely speaks out against the excesses of the corporate racist bigots who wrap themselves in the American flag and religion and call themselves patriots in order to fool the less well educated and simple minded i.e. Limbaugh's followers.

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  • 493. At 6:43pm on 09 Jan 2011, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #478
    matt-stone wrote:
    Some of the rhetorics of political right wingers of the USA is akin to those of Hitler's Nazi Party. Miss Giffords' mistake wass to support Obama's medicare policies for all. Is Nazism what the American right wingers want the whole world follow, I wonder??

    ____________

    And many of us would day the rhetoric of the left of MSNBC Move on org and Mother Jones of villifying anyone who dares disagree with Obama's agenda are the true sucessors to the Nazis.

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  • 494. At 6:48pm on 09 Jan 2011, IHaveaDream wrote:

    "Guns don't kill people, people kill people," I hear gun toting fanatics of the NRA shouting.
    That may be true, but having a gun sure makes it a lot easier to kill someone. It really is about time that the US introduced some sensible gun control legislation.

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  • 495. At 6:52pm on 09 Jan 2011, Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote:

    To the lefties who blame Palin, will you b lame this artist too if a madman does what h e's depicting?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/27/brazilian-artist-depicts-_n_740542.html

    The reality is that some of the far left are trying to silence people they don't agree with by blaming violence on them... Yet these same people would defend this artist's right to depict a ssasination attempts.

    Backpeddle out of this one.

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  • 496. At 6:53pm on 09 Jan 2011, Phil Linehan wrote:

    On 26 December when I wrote the following it was already clear something horrible would happen in Jan Brewer's Arizona.

    Palin and Jan Brewer – A Gruesome Twosome

    Will we ever see the day
    when Sarah Palin goes away?
    She now appears on a t.v. reality show
    in a landscape that’s always covered in snow.

    She showed us how in her land benighted
    one can shoot a caribou even if short-sighted.
    It is trapped and before a camera placed to make it look bigger
    giving Sarah plenty of time to pull the trigger.

    She yells about non-existent death panels in Obama’s health care
    but is seemingly totally unaware
    of the death panel in the Arizona of Republican Jan Brewer,
    a state which, since she has been governor, many compare to a reeking sewer.

    Given Brewer’s hatred of immigrants or anyone not white
    is she among those who think Obama to be President has no right?
    She wants people of whose face she does not approve
    to quickly pack up and themselves remove.

    When she manages to utter a half intelligible sentence she raises the alarm
    about people she is convinced might cause harm.
    She must bitterly regret she can’t pick up a gun and cook their goose
    just as Palin from her helicopter shoots her moose.

    While Sarah is broadcasting her mind-numbing pretentious rants,
    not a word from her as Jan pulls the plug on those waiting for organ transplants.*
    Many wonder just what Madam Governor plans to do with her huge stash
    of millions of dollars in unspent contingency cash.

    For reasons unknown Palin decided she would take a trip
    and stand on Haiti’s sinking ship.
    She arrived surrounded by a select chosen few
    consisting of a Fox News channel crew.

    Hasn’t that unfortunate country suffered too much
    for it now to be allowed to fall into Palin’s clutch?
    Haven’t the people been through enough
    without having to watch Sarah as she struts her stuff?

    Are those who tout her as a 2012 presidential candidate really serious
    or are they snorting something that makes them delirious?
    But if she does turn out to be the Republicans’ choice
    then throughout the land all sane people can rejoice.

    * Brewer cut organ transplants form the state’s health care system even though she is sitting on millions of dollars of unspent discretionary federal stimulus cash.

    Phil Linehan www.philitics.com

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  • 497. At 6:56pm on 09 Jan 2011, Chryses wrote:

    Jackturk, (#492. At 6:40pm on 09 Jan 2011)

    ”... whereas Olbermann has never preached hate but merely speaks out against the excesses of the corporate racist bigots who wrap themselves in the American flag and religion and call themselves patriots in order to fool the less well educated and simple minded ...”
    OK. Who are these “corporate racist bigots?”

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  • 498. At 7:00pm on 09 Jan 2011, Jay wrote:

    468. At 5:52pm on 09 Jan 2011, bostonjohn8 wrote:
    We in the Northeast will never agree with the Bible belt states. We have different needs then the people in the mid west and so on. When the Constitution was written, it was a different world. I agree the 2nd amendment needs to be changed, but honestly, if guns were totally illegal, do you really think people who wanted to kill would stop killing? They would find guns, or they would make a bomb or use a knife. Criminals are criminals because they want to break laws. I know for a fact that 99% of the people in this country who own guns, do not kill people, or ever would think of killing people. By law you have to have your gun locked up at home and transported not loaded. If you had a home invasion, the gun would probably be useless by the time you pulled it out of the safe, put it together, and loaded it. Like I said, I don't like guns, I don't own one and never will. However, to say that all Americans carry guns and want to kill humans with them is absurd-
    ----------------------
    Even the best law, its excellent implementation can stop crime. But we all agree that we need proper laws, ONLY to minimize crimes and do not provoke or give easy access to firearms to potential criminals.
    In US, the gun supporting lobby is too powerful manly due to financial reasons. It is mainly supported by gun manufacturers and national Rile Association (NRA) type organization that is dominated by perverts and sadists. Most unfortunately, they have massively infiltrated into our main-stream political parties, mainly the Republicans. All the talk for 2nd amendment or self-protection are simply excuses, to me at least, to continue to live in their feudal, barbaric mentality and keep the constitutional validity of what THEY like. They will not accept the main intension of 2nd amendment and the time it was framed.
    And some idiot talk show hosts in some specific TV and radio channels exploit that for the same mental makeups. They infuriate people like this murderer Jared Loughner. Few days ago a 10-year-old Joseph McVay killed his monther simply for a petty dispute to bring firewood. Police recovered not one or two but three rifles from that kids bedroom (http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/01/09/guns-in-kids-bedroom-town-understands.html?sid=101). How a kid of 10 got the guns? The idea of a 10-year-old boy keeping a stash of weapons in his bedroom is a jolting one to some Americans, but not so in Big Prairie, where the sound of gunshots ricocheting through the air is familiar. Here, children learn to fire guns as easily as they learn to ride bicycles.:http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/01/09/guns-in-kids-bedroom-town-understands.html?sid=101

    Still many US politicians and those idiot TV/radio talk show hosts think that interpreting the 2nd amendment, the way they exploit it, is more important than minimizing gun related violence and saving so many unfortunate deaths. They do offer some lip service after each death (like this one) but never tries to mend their thinking and ways of doing perverted "politics" of hatred and violence. Their interpretation of US constitution (mainly the 2nd amendment in this case) is not much different as compared to the interpretation of Koran by Islamic terrorists.
    They probably are right in their thinking that all those who are capable to use gun for such criminal purpose are alreday belong to THEIR group and rest of the population is not capable to teach them the lesson they preach! How true they are, STILL NOW!

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  • 499. At 7:02pm on 09 Jan 2011, flaminhaggis wrote:

    @468 BostonJohn8

    Dont take this the wrong way but generalisation both ways-there have been plenty of forum discussions in which american users have plunged us brits together as one entire being instead of the many voices and opinions that we all have.

    Personally I realise (having met americans whilst travelling) that not every American man or woman is a gun-toting killing machine, but rather that like most socieities is a collective of individuals who have different opinions on socio-political thinking.

    However I understand why you stated on here your feelings towards stereotyping of the whole of the USA. Part of the problem is their seem to be some posters (not all) who rather than responding to the issue of either topic or individual posters just generalise as a way of arguement which sometimes can be weak as it doesnt really challenege the issue.

    With regards to the shootings in Arizona, I do hope the families of those who lost loved ones can get through what I can only imagine as an extremely tough time. Also here's hoping that the way in which some political slandering (ie the ill-thought targets used by SP) is toned down and rather than creating a monster in terms of character assasination of political opponents, that those on all sides of the political spectrum can learn to disagree without the need to get personal and vindictive towards the person(s) they disagree with.

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  • 500. At 7:04pm on 09 Jan 2011, soydegales wrote:

    #146

    Would have thought it was fairly obvious.

    Quick thought experiment:

    Perpetrator shows up at political event in AZ carrying a permitted, concealed weapon but is stopped and searched by law enforcement.

    Do they:-

    (a) arrest perpetrator
    (b) let he/she exert their legal right to go about their business (which may or may not include mass murder)

    If it were ALWAYS illegal for members of the public to carry a weapon (concealed or otherwise) the opportunity for such depravity is diminished.

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