BBC BLOGS - Mark Mardell's America
IN ASSOCIATION WITH
« Previous | Main | Next »

Should God be invited to the Tea Party?‏

Mark Mardell | 23:24 UK time, Monday, 16 August 2010

Anyone who has ever been to a Tea Party rally or meeting will know that one of the fascinating things about the movement is the rich mixture of conservatives who attend, from Libertarians to Goldwater Republicans.

Groups in Washington like FreedomWorks which seek to herd these natural-born mavericks are insistent that they can all unite around a single principle, fiscal conservatism. They say Tea Partiers are united by their desire to keep the deficit down, government small and taxes low. Whatever individual members think about guns or gays, they say, stays outside the Tea Party.

Some think that is wrong, and should change. I've bumped into Greg Fettig a couple of times at rallies in Washington. He's a founder of the Hoosier Patriots and is deeply involved in the Tea Party movement. He's written to me to tell me about his movement, America Refocused. One of its founding principles is to connect what it calls the "grassroots' patriot movement" with the Church and it says "God's warriors" should aim at "promoting moral awareness - prayer, humility, worship and seeking God's direction".

Greg Fettig says the Church has been infiltrated by progressives who promote homosexuality, abortion, open borders "and other beliefs contrary to biblical teachings".

He is not a lone voice. I've just read a small book, entitled The Tea Party Manifesto, by Joseph Farah, who, according to the blurb on the back, "was a Tea Partier before there even was a Tea Party movement". He argues that the Tea Party is made up of "prayerful people" and that it is a mistake to divide economics from social and moral issues.

In a text filled with quotes from the Bible, he warns the US is becoming a fascist country, and fulminates against socialism, homosexuality, abortion and, a bit weirdly, turning Native Americans into heroes. It is a fairly familiar mixture: a heated, almost panicky, focus on evils that stalk the land without anything like solid policy prescriptions describing what "taking America back" (from the voters?) might mean.

But the point of interest is that he says that it is time for the Tea Party to connect with its Christian roots.

My suspicion is that the success of the Tea Party - and the reason Republicans find it difficult to harness - is that it focuses on one issue, while revelling in the expression of a whole host of other views. But is the Christian Right really at its heart, and on its way back?

Comments

or register to comment.

  • 1. At 04:32am on 17 Aug 2010, GH1618 wrote:

    The so-called "Tea Party" looks to me like a recycled John Birch Society. When I see their signs along the roadways, I am reminded of the "Impeach Earl Warren" billboards in the 1960s. Both about equally insignificant.

    I don't believe it is essentially a Christian movement, although most of its adherents may call themselves Christian. It's just a right-wing zealot's movement, in my opinion.

    Complain about this comment

  • 2. At 05:00am on 17 Aug 2010, KScurmudgeon wrote:

    The tea party has energy - that is why it is so attractive, particularly to political movements that lack energy, for example the GOP. Every conservative interest out there would like to capture the Tea Party, persuade folks inside and out that theirs is the 'core' tea party issue, and march on their wave to influence and power. The grand example here is Sarah Palin.

    The odd thing is that when I listened to the Tea Party, they were all about simple values, honesty and open reckoning, and finding the people who also hungered for these simple, political values. It wasn't about divisive issues like religion, homosexuality, abortion or the like, it was about fiscal responsibility and honest public service.

    The question will be whether the Tea Party becomes a party in the traditional sense, dedicated to getting their candidate and system into power and never mind what it takes, rather than the loose and welcoming, ill defined amalgam it is now. Or whether it will become the vehicle for one or another bit of narrow, issue-focused partisanship.

    Sympathetic as I am to a moral revival here in the States, religion is a divider in this country, and as such not a legitimate political banner.

    I kinda liked them the way they were - a breath of fresh air.

    KScurmudgeon

    Complain about this comment

  • 3. At 10:14am on 17 Aug 2010, Freeman wrote:

    "Should God be invited to the Tea Party?"

    Only if they want it to collapse into a relatively small and insignificant sub-group of the Republican party.

    Complain about this comment

  • 4. At 11:33am on 17 Aug 2010, SaintDominick wrote:

    The Tea Party may very well turn out to be the last effort by social and fiscal conservatives to save their values and the culture they love. Not surprisingly, God, or their interpretation of God, is a centerpiece of that movement.

    While fiscal conservatism is, indeed, the top priority for many TP members, religion and the need to resist perceived attacks on their right to worship ranks high among its goals.

    The fact that their positions are often contradictory does not bother TP members, each of whom hails the movement as representative of their own values rather than a cohesive ideological instrument. In some ways, it is a movement of protest and a manifestation of the anxieties that come from the realization that our way of life is changing dramatically and that there is little we can do to stop it.

    Complain about this comment

  • 5. At 11:49am on 17 Aug 2010, neuebiene wrote:

    I very much hope that God will be invited into the Tea Party, and that he will prove to be a very unruly and disruptive guest. The party guest from hell, if you will.

    Complain about this comment

  • 6. At 12:10pm on 17 Aug 2010, John_from_Hendon wrote:

    When ever I hear the words Tea Party in association with the USA its pleasant somewhat archaic afternoon group meeting over a boiled water infusion and cakes is sullied by the reality of a bunch of entirely selfish loonies clinging together for what they think of as safety. They are I am afraid to say ranting in the dark against the unstoppable and inevitable decline of their overblown 'english' speaking exclusively white state. The dead heart of the rump will struggle on and remain as irrelevant as it is now. Whether they become gun toting extremists is open to question, but that is always an ever present risk in the USA? I hope not.

    The real problem is that their (the USA's) so called democracy isn't very democratic - it just lets the existing elite carry on running the country for its own benefit. I don't know if change will have to come to the USA through the barrel of a gun - I fervently hope not, but change must come. The American Nation is in terminal decline - it is spending too much and borrowing too much of what it spends so something must give - they American poor are already being squeezed too hard and inequality is almost the worst in the World. They need to understand that inequality inside the USA must be reduced and that the only way to do this is to take wealth and income away from the rich then perhaps some of their ideas may be able to come to fruition.

    Complain about this comment

  • 7. At 12:36pm on 17 Aug 2010, SaintDominick wrote:

    Ref 3, Freeman

    "Only if they want it to collapse into a relatively small and insignificant sub-group of the Republican party."

    I am not so sure about that. Religion, especially Christian denominations, are the centerpiece of the Republican party and the catalyst that influence their positions on issues such as abortion, gay marriage, and "liberalism". Mentioning God and demonstrating Christian devotion are rites of in the party that supported people like Mike Huckabee. If you listen carefully to Sarah Palin's speeches she rarely omits religious or biblical references, and so do other GOP luminaries.

    Complain about this comment

  • 8. At 12:40pm on 17 Aug 2010, American Sport Fan wrote:

    Re # 1

    I would agree, the Tea Party isn't really a political movement as it is a gathering place for every fringe group in the country. The Tea Party claims to represent "American Values." Well, as my screen name suggests, I am an American but the tea party definately doesn't represent NY Values.

    There rheotoric seems to be more and more extremist. Whether it is their opposition to healthcare reform, their confusion of Fascism and Communism, or their miss understanding of the US Constitution. The TEa Party IS NOT, I repeat, NOT in the Mainstream of American Political thought. Yet somehow, they have been allowed to take control of the base of the Republican Party.

    Complain about this comment

  • 9. At 12:43pm on 17 Aug 2010, mabelwhite wrote:

    The democrat and republican parties also advocate fiscal conservatism- what a peaseful nation we have. The only questions seem to be which program to cut and how to increase revenue.

    It seems to me that men who presume to know the will of (whichever) god and want to force it on others have proved very dangerous, often wrong, and are to be avoided. Keeping religion nominally out of government is one of the best things the US ever accomplished.

    The concern about turning Native Americans into heros is a bit strange, although from what I know of Native American religions I much prefer them to Christianity.

    Complain about this comment

  • 10. At 12:46pm on 17 Aug 2010, The Toothbrush Man wrote:

    The Tea Party seems to be a magnet for any individual that has an ideology not being addressed my either Republicans or the Democrats. And there are a lot of ideologies out there that their proponents feel are not being addressed. Evangelical Christianity is just one of the biggest. A close second is what I call the "Founding Fathers" movement - an adherence to a strict interpretation of the Constitution not unlike the Christian adherence to the Bible. [At least the Constitution is only 200 years out of date.]. Tagging on their coat tails are the "2nd Amendment Movement", who stretch the Constitution to the limits for obvious reasons.

    Unfortunately, the laudable aims of fiscal responsibility make for rubbish TV. Dressing up in period costume and tricorn hats, waving pro-christian/anti-Islam banners whilst brandishing guns do.

    Personally, I think the US needs a third party, and I think the original intention of the TP was to do exactly that. But it got somehow hijacked by the loonies.

    Note also the impossible position of the GOP. Once a respected mainstream party, the recruitment of the Evangelical Christians by the Bush campaign lurched the GOP away from the more moderate Conservatives into a place they didn't want to go. The toxic events of the Bush adminstration only made this worse. The GOP have now had a disastrous party leader (I really wish I had been in the room when decided on a party meeting in lesbian bondage club) have not helped either. Now moderate Conservatives are being explicitly told what it means to be a Conservative by the Reynard Channel - pulling the Conservatives in the opposite direction. And now the Tea Party has also got hold of another corner of the Conservative ideology and are pulling in their own direction !

    The GOP must appeal to voters - it must make its policies clear enough, and appealling enough, in order to win votes. It must have it's policies determined by the voters it needs to win over - it must NOT pretend to wear the clothes of other ideologies - however appealing they are.






    Complain about this comment

  • 11. At 12:55pm on 17 Aug 2010, vagueofgodalming wrote:

    keep the deficit down, government small and taxes low.

    While in the long term that's possible in principle (though it would make America a horrible place to live for most people), it can't be done on the 2010-12 (or even 2016) timescale, because the deficit is currently high and the economy is depressed.

    They can raise taxes to try to reduce the deficit (but this is inefficient because it will depress the economy further, so the tax revenue will not rise as much as hoped);

    They can lower taxes to have 'low taxes' (and they can invoke Laffer-curve insanity - GHWB's 'Voodoo economics'), but that will increase the deficit.

    They can shrink government, which will also depress the economy.

    To get the economy out of the doldrums, the US needs to increase short term government spending - notably aid to the States - and let the Bush tax cuts expire, while putting into place long term deficit reduction measures (which means further healthcare reform, ie government intervention, since the evidence round the world is that government is the most efficient for healthcare. Oh, and tax increases). All of which is pretty much the opposite of what the Tea Party wants.

    Complain about this comment

  • 12. At 12:57pm on 17 Aug 2010, PartTimeDon wrote:

    "Greg Fettig says the Church has been infiltrated by progressives who promote homosexuality, abortion, open borders "and other beliefs contrary to biblical teachings"."
    ___________________
    Can someone enlighten on the part of the bible that makes failing to secure your borders unchristian?
    For a guy who's professes to want small government, Mr Fettig seems quite happy that it be large enough that women and gays are kept under control.
    Perhaps that discussion about women wearing burkahs in the middle east on the last string isn't so far removed from America's heartland after all.

    Complain about this comment

  • 13. At 1:06pm on 17 Aug 2010, HabitualHero wrote:

    I've never understood how history's most famous liberal became a figurehead for rightwingers.

    Complain about this comment

  • 14. At 1:13pm on 17 Aug 2010, Freeman wrote:

    #7 SaintDominick:

    The Bible thumper is indeed a solid support base for the GOP. However the Tea Party will be just one Bible thumper group among many of those I fancy. Perhaps they may end up as the top dog in that area, but they will be limited to that area only. Any wider appeal will be shot down as it becomes a Limbaugh fan society.

    Complain about this comment

  • 15. At 1:32pm on 17 Aug 2010, carolinalady wrote:

    Well, this is interesting...

    GH1618: yes, I think recycling JBS, is sort of what the TP does. America does indeed go through paranoic periods and this seems to be one of them.

    KCcurmudgeon: you make a telling point in your first paragraph. I think every conservative cause in the country wants to capture the energy of the TP and claim it for its own nefarious purpose...including the Christian right. That's dangerous for the TP, obviously, although I doubt that they are as innocuous as you and Mark seem to think. But it's also dangerous to the various causes, as well. To use a Mark Twain-ism: you can learn a lot from holding a cat by the tail...

    One final remark, which everyone concerned tends to forget in the heat of discussion: "Congress shall make no law..." remember that? We do not abridge the freedom of religion, nor do we legislate morality.

    Complain about this comment

  • 16. At 1:36pm on 17 Aug 2010, mabelwhite wrote:

    #9 I meant current, north american native american religions (not like Azec, y'know)

    On the trail marked with pollen may I walk.
    With grasshoppers about my feet may I walk.
    With dew about my feet may I walk.
    With beauty may I walk.
    With beauty before me, may I walk.
    With beauty behind me, may I walk.
    With beauty above me, may I walk.
    With beauty below me, may, I walk.
    With beauty all around me, may I walk.
    In old age wandering on a trail of beauty, lively, may I walk.
    In old age wandering on a trail of beauty, living again, may I walk.
    It is finished in beauty.
    It is finished in beauty.

    Another chant of the tea party is the purity of the original 'constitution' - not all of the amendments mind you, just the ones that suit them.

    Complain about this comment

  • 17. At 1:41pm on 17 Aug 2010, SaintDominick wrote:

    Ref 11, Vagueofgodalming

    "To get the economy out of the doldrums, the US needs to increase short term government spending - notably aid to the States - and let the Bush tax cuts expire, while putting into place long term deficit reduction measures (which means further healthcare reform, ie government intervention, since the evidence round the world is that government is the most efficient for healthcare. Oh, and tax increases). All of which is pretty much the opposite of what the Tea Party wants."

    Excellent points. I would like to add that the government must also focus on education, R&D, infrastructure, industrial modernization and business expansion to stimulate the economy, create new job opportunities, and train the chronically unemployed so that they qualify for the jobs that are currently going to foreigners because our employers can not find qualified applicants in the USA.

    The latter is a serious problem due largely to our decision to move our industrial base overseas and transition to a service oriented economy without preparing Americans for the challenges associated with that economic model.

    As you pointed out, government spending must increase rather than decrease in the short term, and taxes for the rich must revert to what they were in the Clinton era (they account for about 1/3 of the deficit) until the economy recovers at which time we must cut government spending, raise taxes, balance the federal budget, stop borrowing, make an effort to reduce the national debt, and take steps to make Social Security and MEDICARE solvent.

    Complain about this comment

  • 18. At 1:44pm on 17 Aug 2010, Bro_Winky wrote:

    It's amazing how the Republicans became so focused on the deficit immediately after the Democrats gained power. The Bush tax cuts (for the super rich) alone account for about 30% of the current US debt. Yet they're determined to prevent them from expiring.

    Typical.

    Complain about this comment

  • 19. At 1:45pm on 17 Aug 2010, SaintDominick wrote:

    Ref 12, PartTimeDon

    "For a guy who's professes to want small government, Mr Fettig seems quite happy that it be large enough that women and gays are kept under control."

    Mr. Fettig is clearly among those that advocate smaller government but blames government for not stopping oil leaks, helping us overcome the effects of natural disasters, finding immediate cures for new viruses, etc.

    Sadly, that is the crowd that is energized and is likely to influence the outcome of the upcoming November election.

    Complain about this comment

  • 20. At 1:52pm on 17 Aug 2010, Tinkersdamn wrote:

    When Ron Paul ran as a Republican candidate in the presidential primaries and recieved massive financial support from regular working people outside of the typical Republican mainstream, that may have very briefly been a seedling moment for a third, more libertarian, party movement. It seems since to have been coopted by standard Republican operatives as an outlet for anyone with a frustration to relate to, and has to be long on noise and theatre in order to detract from its lack of rational thought out solutions. It's difficult to listen to Dick Armey or Newt Gingrich for more than a minute without being confronted with outright disingenuous schtick of rhetoric that never matched their acts (I exclude Palin, inasmuch as in order to be disingenuous you probably had to have been genuous at some earlier time).

    One fellow who may be genuine, and would seem to match the profile of what many earlier tea party people claimed to be, apart from outright Libertarians, is Mike Huckabee. I haven't seen him at the noise-fest events, but he is on the interview circuit. He relates his view of governance to his Christian principals when asked (and only when asked), he does express a preference for Wall Street reform and a strong aversion to bank bailouts, and he actually seemed to have a decent record of representing working people's interests when he was the Republican Governor of Arkansas. I get the impression at least he's not a hypocrite-- maybe that's what the astroturf roots crowd had to move in to protect from...

    Complain about this comment

  • 21. At 2:10pm on 17 Aug 2010, Elena wrote:

    Those that want to make something out of the Tea Party movement must be careful when dealing with people whose belief are "my interpretation of the bible is the right one, everyone else is going to hell". Get a group of different denominational protestants together to "bible study" and you'll see that the same passages will yeild very different interpretations. If they can't be tolerant to other Christians' intepretation of the bible, how can you possibly bring them together cohesively to form a united political party?

    Greg Fettig saying that the Church has been infiltrated is basically him saying that his views of christianity and the bible are the *only* acceptable views allowed. So Anglicans who bless gay unions, Catholics because they're Catholics, etc. are all equally false religions, because they really *aren't* following the ways of Christ, and their members will all burn in the bowels of hell along with the Jews, Moslems, atheists, gays, buddhists, etc etc etc. I'm sure Greg is going to have a hard time recruiting enough "God's warriors" to wage any significant war for his cause with that narrow-minded take. The Tea Party would be wise to keep people like him and their "God" at arm's length...

    Complain about this comment

  • 22. At 2:12pm on 17 Aug 2010, Interestedforeigner wrote:

    4. At 11:33am on 17 Aug 2010, SaintDominick wrote:

    "The Tea Party may very well turn out to be the last effort by social and fiscal conservatives to save their values and the culture they love. ..."

    ____________

    Not sure about that. The Tea Party phenomenon, and movements like it, have been a recurring theme of American politics since at least as far back as the "Know Nothing" Party of the 1850's, if not earlier.

    Complain about this comment

  • 23. At 2:19pm on 17 Aug 2010, Interestedforeigner wrote:

    It seems to me that the "Tea Party" is simply a vehicle by which Republicans-in-everything-but-name can distance themselves from, and pretend not to have any responsibility for, the financial and foreign relations catastrophe that was the Junior Bush administration.

    What percentage of those who currently identify themselves as supporters of the Tea Party movement voted for GW Bush in either 2000 or 2004?

    Instead of yet another exercise in denial of responsibility, it would be much more refreshing if the Republicans would own up to responsibility for their past deeds, learn from those mistakes, and a fair bit sadder and wiser (and with a lot more humility and honesty) get on with co-operating to help build a better country.

    Complain about this comment

  • 24. At 2:56pm on 17 Aug 2010, ghostofsichuan wrote:

    The Tea Party may claim that it has the agenda of fiscal conservatives but the agenda is social and aimed at ending those programs that have addressed the needs of the poor and minorities. The constant references and speeches that imply a racial agenda is worrisome to most. The ability of the Republican leadership to escape all responsbility for the fiscal crisi they created and balme the events on the spending of government has been disheartening. If the Tea Party is fiscal conservative it would not be supporting those Republicians who wish to subsidize big business and banking with tax dollars. Basically, the membership is being used to advocate for things that will not benefit the members It is nothing specific to the Tea Party that government is seen as an out of control spending machine but most do not understand that it is the arms dealers, defense industry and big business that received the most money and tax advantages and this makes the allocations for social welfare appear as small change. People tend to get caught up with a felling of power without realizing that the power is an illusion and real power will always remain in the hands of the wealthy. I find it hard to believe that God takes sides and am always concerned about a God that is in need of the assistance of humans and especially self-designated humans.

    Complain about this comment

  • 25. At 3:25pm on 17 Aug 2010, baircash wrote:

    My take is that the Tea Party members want to go back. When I say back , I mean to simpler times. Middle 1950's would be nice. WASPS would be back in control. Questions & answers seemed so much easier to deal with. I know that sugar coats the era , but the memory lingers. Throw in the gradual realization of the US dominance in the world is fading, failure of the market place to offer a pain free solution,Republican Party that has successfully sold the idea the government can't work, Democrates who beleive it can can't make it work ,& stir in a Blck President, you get a witches brew called the Tea Party

    Complain about this comment

  • 26. At 3:55pm on 17 Aug 2010, BluesBerry wrote:

    Should God be invited to the Tea Party?‏
    Which God? And before you say there is only one God, remember that (as the late Joseph Campbell said) there may be only one God, but that God has a thousand faces. So what mask is God supposed to wear to an American Tea Party?
    You can’t say “FreedomWorks” without envisioning Glenn Beck and his standard invitation: Freedomworks needs you", you know like Uncle same used to need you. “Become a member and get your FREE Take America Back Action Kit” including
    - DVD video laying out FreedomWorks' masterplan and
    - souvenir Don't Tread on Me flag for your desk.
    Tea Party unites around fiscal conservatism. Tea Partiers want
    - to keep the deficit down,
    - government small and
    - taxes low.
    Ooops, too late!
    Government debt as of 17 Aug 2010:
    $13,330,529,221,543.06.
    The estimated population of the United States is 308,943,497;
    therefore, each American citizen owes: $43,148.75.
    The National Debt has continued to increase an average of $4.10B/day since September 28, 2007!
    As for American Refocuse on Church - "God's warriors", these are aiming at promoting moral awareness - 'prayer, humility, worship and seeking God's direction". Which prayers, which worship and which one of God's directions?. Muslims would answer “Allah”; Jews answer Adonai, and even among Christians there would be differences. What does this tell us about humankind's progress towards the one and only real God - and towards a united spirtuality?
    Humility is not what we need as much as compassion and understanding among various “believers”. Just look at Greg Fettig’s comments that the Church has been infiltrated by "progressives" who promote homosexuality, abortion, open borders "and other beliefs contrary to biblical teachings". Well, Greg, the best I can do is ask you, “Who wrote the Bible? What if the Bible is not word-for-word the word of God? What if the Old Testament was primarily written during the Babylonian captivity, what if this document was touched & retouched and retouched as political need changed?”
    Having said this, I believe that the Constitution has been trampled almost beyond recognition in the United States; I agree that the US is well on its way to becoming a fascist country. Individual freedoms have dropped (and are dropping) like flies; but the people hardly even notice anymore because you need all these constraints to keep the terrorists “over there and not over here”.
    If I were a Tea Party member, I wouldn’t want to take back America; I would want to take back the Constitution, restore all individual freedoms, get rid of all lobby groups and coporate patronage. It would be Government for the people and by the people. Right now, it doesn’t matter who gets elected because the same corporations with their lobbies run both parties.
    The Tea Party is made up of "prayerful people", but to which God are they praying? Has it occurred to them that the so-called “enemy” is paring just as hard, maybe even harder to a different God.
    The Tea Party may be the Christian Right, but are these Christians right?
    In specific answer to your question: If God was invited to a Tea Party, would anyone recognize Him or Her?

    Complain about this comment

  • 27. At 3:56pm on 17 Aug 2010, Curt Carpenter wrote:

    "My suspicion is that the success of the Tea Party - and the reason Republicans find it difficult to harness - is that it focuses on one issue, while revelling in the expression of a whole host of other views. But is the Christian Right really at its heart, and on its way back?"

    The TEA (Taxed Enough Already) Party -IS- the Republican party, so the idea that the one might find it difficult to "harness" the other presents a weird -- but accurate! -- summary of the GOP and the American right in general.

    As for the Christian Right in America: it's a massive school for hypocrisy, and so only natural that its graduates should gravitate toward the TEA Party in the political context. But at the "heart" of the Republican party? No. "I've Got Mine, Jack" self interest is at the heart of the Republican party. God is kept on the bench, and only sent into the game from time to time to help out with issues like "death panels."

    Complain about this comment

  • 28. At 4:35pm on 17 Aug 2010, middleofnowhere wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 29. At 4:54pm on 17 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 30. At 5:20pm on 17 Aug 2010, Spottletoe wrote:

    Gods and all other mythical beings should have no place at all in the public or private sphere in the 21st century. But if they are not to be banished, I strenuously object to the blatant racist discrimination against elves and unicorns.

    Complain about this comment

  • 31. At 5:20pm on 17 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:

    Mark Mardell wrote: "In a text filled with quotes from the Bible, he warns the US is becoming a fascist country, and fulminates against socialism, homosexuality, abortion and, a bit weirdly, turning Native Americans into heroes.

    Is it normal to refer to American Indians as "Native Americans" as you, and others like you, like to do, to the exclusion of other native Americans of different races?

    Is it normal to venerate American Indians to the extent that they are when many of their ancestors and tribes were some of the most brutal and gruesome killers of innocent settlers, such as women and children, not to mention amongst themselves, as if somehow they were all peaceful, noble and wise?

    Is it normal to try and throw some kind of guilt trip on non-Indian Americans by claiming that they stole this entire continent from the Indians when in fact the vast majority of the lands that would eventually become America were actually uninhabited?

    And that even in those cases where tribes were wronged is it normal to also disregard the violence, wars and land grabs amongst the many Indian tribes that existed long before the white, black or yellow man showed up as if, once again they were all peaceful, noble and wise? Is that normal?

    No, all of that is well beyond "weirdly" and just some of the examples that that person was referring to, Mr Mardell!

    Complain about this comment

  • 32. At 5:25pm on 17 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:

    baircash wrote:

    "...& stir in a Blck President, you get a witches brew called the Tea Party"

    Oh how sweet, the race card.

    Bravo, that's a real intellectual leap.

    Complain about this comment

  • 33. At 5:26pm on 17 Aug 2010, Echotheword wrote:

    I have waited a long time for the Republicans to change their idealogic thoughts. Now the Republicans are desparate to change their followers to a new party and hide behind the Tea Party Reform. The first time around, the Tea Party got a bad reputation. They change their name recently, but not the people. This group holds on to an old 1950 idea that never changes with time. Yes, I like Elvis Presley and old cars, but come on...it's 2010!!! The USA is changing all around us to this wonderful grand idea that we can live together and help one another without politics and religion. Has anyone talk to the new generation? They have wonderful ideas to save energy, clean environment, clean air, healthcare, housing, saving medicare and medicaid for elders.
    Within myself is the light for the next generation. Why should I let anyone stifle my future? VOTE VOTE VOTE VOTE and change this wonderful country.
    If you don't change with time; time will change you. (usually into a bitter old person :))

    Complain about this comment

  • 34. At 5:30pm on 17 Aug 2010, Echotheword wrote:

    Amen!!!!! Bluesberry #26.
    They are a self absorbed group trying to recruit votes and using GOD as a tool or scare tactic.

    Complain about this comment

  • 35. At 5:32pm on 17 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:

    ghostofsichuan wrote:

    "The ability of the Republican leadership to escape all responsbility for the fiscal crisi they created and balme the events on the spending of government has been disheartening."

    BOTH the Democrats and the Republicans are responsible for the financial mess that America is in!

    Obama though is now doing more than any one President ever has to accelerate and make the problem much worse than what it already was. He is only delaying and making much worse the inevitable austerity measures and truth that America needs to hear.


    Complain about this comment

  • 36. At 5:33pm on 17 Aug 2010, Tommy wrote:

    Blueberry asked which God. Most of the TP members would have us look to the God of the Bible. Which Bible - Doesn't matter. If you look in the Bible, you will find God.

    Our country (USA) is broken. All should turn to the God of the Bible. There is something you can do to take America Back. Pray to the God of the Bible.

    Complain about this comment

  • 37. At 5:34pm on 17 Aug 2010, Scott0962 wrote:

    Allowing the Tea Party platform to be co-opted by the religious right would be the death knell of the movement as a credible political force. Many independent voters who are open and sympathetic to it's message of fiscal conservatism would be alienated by a religious one. The very independence the author noted about the people in the movement also applies to their relgious beliefs.

    Praying to God each in their way is one thing, agreeing on a set of religious principles and beliefs to adopt as a party platform would cause endless argument and in the end the movement would fragment.

    Complain about this comment

  • 38. At 5:45pm on 17 Aug 2010, SaintDominick wrote:

    Our national debt is, indeed, a major concern and an issue that should not be ignored, but trying to portray it as a new problem brought about by the Obama administration is simply wrong.

    It took the U.S. government 191 years – from 1791 until 1982 – to run up the national debt to one trillion dollars. By the time former President Bush II was inaugurated in 2001 the national debt was over $5 trillion. By the time he left office it was $11 trillion, and since President Obama was inagurated it has risen to over $13 trillion.

    The reasons for the out of control federal government budget deficits include irresponsible tax cuts that account for one third of the deficit, defense spending, and social programs.

    The economic problems we are currently having prevent our government from raising taxes and reducing spending as such measures would kill recovery and may result in a second Great Depression, but unless we reduce spending within the next couple of years and raise taxes to the levels we had in the Clinton era we may never be able to recover.
    Those that claim we are over taxed should remember that our tax rates are at record laws at the moment. If they insist in keeping them at this level the debate should be about which government services we want to do without...and reducing government pensions is not going to do the trick...


    Complain about this comment

  • 39. At 5:49pm on 17 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:

    Interestedforeigner wrote:

    "It seems to me that the "Tea Party" is simply a vehicle by which Republicans-in-everything-but-name can distance themselves from, and pretend not to have any responsibility for, the financial and foreign relations catastrophe that was the Junior Bush administration."

    Bush did just fine when it came to "foreign relations." In fact, he was too nice about it with some of our so-called allies in Europe. Hey, but it was OK when they called him a Nazi, huh?

    "What percentage of those who currently identify themselves as supporters of the Tea Party movement voted for GW Bush in either 2000 or 2004?"

    Going back to your first point what exactly is wrong with them possibly distancing themselves from someone they may have voted for? If they became Democrats would that be the only logical way of accepting the "responsibility" you refer to below?

    "Instead of yet another exercise in denial of responsibility, it would be much more refreshing if the Republicans would own up to responsibility for their past deeds, learn from those mistakes,"

    For people like you the problem is that many of the Tea Party people who identified themselves as Republicans have remained conservative, or become even more conservative. That's what you have a problem with.

    "and a fair bit sadder and wiser (and with a lot more humility and honesty) get on with co-operating to help build a better country."

    It's OUR country, not yours! You are not American! WE Americans will decide what is "better" for ourselves!

    Complain about this comment

  • 40. At 5:53pm on 17 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    Its not just conservatives who attend Tea Party rallies. There are many former moderate Democrats, such as myself, who now call themselves Independents and have joined the Tea Party movement. My whole life I was a registered Democrat up until now, in which I have switched parties due to the Obama Admin. ultraliberal divisive policies. My fave President, to this day, is Bill Clinton, because I favored most all of his policies. I never thought I would stray from the Dems, but the way that much country music is now pop, many Dems are now ultraliberal Dems instead of moderate Dems. Rather than Obama doing what is right for the whole of America, Obama is doing what is right for the ultraliberals agenda, which is why I can no longer vote Democrat...

    Every time President Obama supports another controversial issue, it makes the GOP and Tea Party's stocks go up.

    Complain about this comment

  • 41. At 5:58pm on 17 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:

    Elena wrote:

    "Greg Fettig saying that the Church has been infiltrated is basically him saying that his views of christianity and the bible are the *only* acceptable views allowed. So Anglicans who bless gay unions, Catholics because they're Catholics, etc. are all equally false religions, because they really *aren't* following the ways of Christ, and their members will all burn in the bowels of hell along with the Jews, Moslems, atheists, gays, buddhists, etc etc etc. I'm sure Greg is going to have a hard time recruiting enough "God's warriors" to wage any significant war for his cause with that narrow-minded take. The Tea Party would be wise to keep people like him and their "God" at arm's length..."

    Would you be so brave and moral to insert Muslims in the place of Christians, Allah in the place of God and any well known radical cleric in the place of Fettig?

    After all, it is Muslims that are the ones that are waging a "significant war," throughout the world.

    Complain about this comment

  • 42. At 6:12pm on 17 Aug 2010, SaintDominick wrote:

    I forgot to mention in my previous post that interest on the national debt (Treasury notes and bonds) has exceeded $400B a year the last four years.

    Complain about this comment

  • 43. At 6:20pm on 17 Aug 2010, arclightt wrote:

    @11 / 17 (voga / StD): These are good comments but I think they don't center the truth. Here are just some of the key issues for me:

    1. We have allowed the private wealth base, on which public spending must always rest, to atrophy to near death. We did this by (a) valuing economic segments that don't create new wealth (legal and financial) over those segments that do (manufacturing, etc.), (b) presuming that the private wealth base could sustain an infinite amount of public spending, (c) allowing the budget process and the tax code to become weapons of corruption and ideological warfare rather than a vehicle for long-term maintenance of the government, and (d) flat-out lying about the finances over the course of decades.

    2. We have allowed our eduacation system to be usurped to be a battleground for partisans of left and right since at least the late 1960s, with the end result that we have now produced two generations of Americans that in far too many cases (a) do not understand or will not accept their responsibilities as citizens, whether children, youth, or adults; (b) cannot assemble facts logically and use those facts to discover new knowledge or check results (which makes them critically dependent on information systems to "give them the answer" rather than making them masters of those information systems and able to spot errors generated by those systems when they occur); (c) are critically dependent on their emotions to guide their actions (which makes them buzzard bait for every demagogue of any stripe that knows how to manipulate emotions); and (d) have an incomplete or malformed understanding of human nature (which usually results in their becoming destructively cynical under the guise of "sophistication").

    3. We have greatly diminished (to near destruction) the two foundational concepts on which our government rests: the rule of law as our chosen method of governance, and the "consent of the governed" as the basis on which that method rests. Books could be written about this alone, but to keep it simple, in too many cases we have chosen the wrong thing, or even if we have done "the right thing" we've done it in "the wrong way", and as a result have torn apart one or the other of these concepts. The result of this is that now our legal system is far too often a high-grade weapons system for corporate, organizational, and personal enrichment; as a result our people have lost faith in it.

    4. We have tolerated (and in far too many cases celebrated) the degeneration of our free press from the level of journalistic integrity which it attained toward the middle part of the last century back to the "yellow-dog" condition it was in at the beginning of the 20th century. We really don't value objective truth as a society that much any longer.

    In the process of allowing all this to happen, I think we have critically damaged the compact between each other as citizens and between us as citizens and our institutions. As we face our future, we are going to have to have some serious conversation (and even more serious personal thinking and meditation) about where we are, and what we are willing to do to get to where we think we want to be.

    There are no easy answers to any of this, but the first and hardest questions we have to answer now are these: Do we still believe in our system of government, and its future, enough to use the processes we have to elect sound leaders and then discipline ourselves to follow their lead? Are we willing to have enough faith in this nation and in each other to set aside the long history of failures, once again pick up the responsibilities of citizenship, and continue to try to make this nation work not just for ourselves but for each other? Are we willing to do that particularly when trusting our leadership and "making it work" is going to result in painful sacrifice and diminished opportunities that for many of us will last well beyond our deaths?

    Or do we save ourselves and let the country and our fellow citizens go hang?

    The questions are being called, whether we want to face them or not. How will we answer?

    Arclight





    Complain about this comment

  • 44. At 6:30pm on 17 Aug 2010, Spottletoe wrote:

    Comment #36 is scary and typifies why this country is being held back, behind those in the rest of the "first" world.

    There is a certain talk show host who disparages "secular progressives" as if the expression is a pejorative. Look carefully at those words; define them in your mind. Then think about whether the opposite, "religious regressives," is really what you want to extol and whether heading in that direction will be good for the country.

    Complain about this comment

  • 45. At 6:33pm on 17 Aug 2010, RHCracker wrote:

    33. At 5:26pm on 17 Aug 2010, Echotheword wrote:

    Has anyone talk to the new generation? They have wonderful ideas to save energy, clean environment, clean air, healthcare, housing, saving medicare and medicaid for elders.

    All this sound great but.where are the ideas to start manufacturing here again without stifling environmental regulations ,creating good jobs for American workers,creating environment where we don't need all theses government programs to make it in everyday life.

    America needs to wake up from the anti capitalism stupor we seem to be stuck in and pump up production in this country if we are to remain a great nation.
    This should be at the forground of teachings in our colleges,instead when students come from college all they know is America bad ,factories bad ,capitalism bad,ice is melting ,polar bears dying,blah blah blah.

    Complain about this comment

  • 46. At 6:38pm on 17 Aug 2010, RHCracker wrote:

    8. At 12:40pm on 17 Aug 2010, American Sport Fan wrote:

    Re # 1
    The TEa Party IS NOT, I repeat, NOT in the Mainstream of American Political thought. Yet somehow, they have been allowed to take control of the base of the Republican Party.

    Gays in the military and gay marriage rights are not in the mainstream political thought either ,but the democrats and the media they control would have the world believe so.

    Complain about this comment

  • 47. At 6:39pm on 17 Aug 2010, magnificentpolarbear wrote:

    "God's warriors" should aim at "promoting moral awareness - prayer, humility, worship and seeking God's direction".

    Hmmm think this comment can apply to ANY religion.

    Amazing how the 'christian fundamentalists' are in favour of religious freedom BUT only if its for their religion and the rest can go hang.

    Complain about this comment

  • 48. At 6:42pm on 17 Aug 2010, magnificentpolarbear wrote:

    Do'h hit 'post' too soon !

    Surely if the Tea Party belive in their message that much then they would be putting up their own candidates rather than trying to infiltrate the GOP

    Complain about this comment

  • 49. At 6:44pm on 17 Aug 2010, RHCracker wrote:

    Seems the dems have been up to some tricks to discredit the Tea Party.

    http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-national/democrats-caught-inventing-another-fake-tea-party

    Complain about this comment

  • 50. At 6:45pm on 17 Aug 2010, joan_of_arc wrote:

    Jesus was crucified for his beliefs. He wanted peace, love, and freedom for everyone. David danced around the ARK for God. We should all rejoice for the freedom to love and sing. Suffering is a mens tall tale.
    It is written in the Bible, we all have the Holy Ghost in us. Dali Lama calls it light within ourselves. It only takes one person to change the world. Are you going to be that person?
    The Republicans want to change our constitution to fit their game. Their game is making the citizens of this great country suffer.



    Complain about this comment

  • 51. At 6:59pm on 17 Aug 2010, RHCracker wrote:

    The Tea Party started out with hard working people who had had enough of overspending,not enforcing border laws causing unfair business and labor disadvantages to American workers ,and people just plain tired of feeling like their vote and their voices were not being heard by those in charge of the federal government.

    It is basically a reminder of who pays their salaries and who has the ultimate power in this country and that is the citizens.

    I belive that has lost some impact along the way due to the hijacking of the party name by unscupulouse politicians from both sides of the isle.



    Complain about this comment

  • 52. At 7:00pm on 17 Aug 2010, middleofnowhere wrote:

    In response to AllenT2
    Yes it is normal for Americans to refer to the folks whose ancestors lived on the land before it was discovered by Europeans as Native Americans. This means it does necessarily exclude genetic descendants of European settlers. There is a marked difference in cultural attitudes between those two groups.
    Further, American's don't really venerate Native tribes, unless you count liking that commercial from the 70's with the single teardrop Chief. Most think the tribes are extinct or if alive, still live in teepee's.
    As for the statement that most of the land was uninhibited, that is absoluely untrue. Perhaps it became true 150 years after the Spanish conquest, when smallpox had decimated 70-90% of all Natives in North + South America. And this isn't an attempt to lay guilt upon the white people, it's just a fact - documented by white people during that time period and through the oral tradition of the remaing Natives.
    In addition, there were not 'land grabs' by Natives prior to European settlement. There was violence and war, because Native tribes are human too. As a Native American, who has studied with tribe members from all over my hemisphere, I have yet to come across a tribal mythos that claims any type of human ownership in connection with land.
    Perhaps, Mr Farah is uneducated on the actual history of Native Americans and relies on the serial westerns he bought as a child for his historical viewpoint on them. As for his views on homosexuality, abortions, socialism, ect - as mentioned earlier this minority group of angry Americans has been around for quite some time. The cause of their anger may change every twenty years or so, but the m.o stay's the same. They talk (yell) louder than the rest of us and as a result get more attention as a political group. But on the whole, American's don't vote for them when it counts.

    Complain about this comment

  • 53. At 7:20pm on 17 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    Much the criticism of the Tea Party is recycled criticism levelled against Republicans, Conservatives, religious right, etc.

    A lot of recycled anger directed at a substitute.

    Complain about this comment

  • 54. At 7:37pm on 17 Aug 2010, RHCracker wrote:

    26. At 3:55pm on 17 Aug 2010, BluesBerry wrote:

    If I were a Tea Party member, I wouldn’t want to take back America; I would want to take back the Constitution, restore all individual freedoms, get rid of all lobby groups and coporate patronage. It would be Government for the people and by the people. Right now, it doesn’t matter who gets elected because the same corporations with their lobbies run both parties.

    Well said ,but originally this was the tea party agenda,before the hijackings by both republicans,and liberal dems,and is what compelled ordinary hard working citizens to take to the streets.
    And this would be the definition of taking America back

    Complain about this comment

  • 55. At 7:42pm on 17 Aug 2010, GH1618 wrote:

    The Examiner (see post 49) is a conservative rag. The opinion piece by Robert Moon in The Examiner which was linked in post 49 is based on an article in the Detroit Free Press, but selectively quotes only a small portion of it, using it to attribute the incident to the Democrats generally. If you read the entire Free Press article, avilable by following a link in the Moon piece, you will find that although some Democratic official seems to be involved, neither the Michigan Democratic Party nor the Oakland County Democratic Party was a party to it.

    So one or a few Democrats were up to some "dirty tricks." Democrats did not invent dirty tricks, and are hardly the only ones to employ them.

    Complain about this comment

  • 56. At 7:43pm on 17 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    52,

    In Jr. High, we were the Braves. In High School, we were the Warriors- with an Indian Warrior mascot. In Illinois, our most famous college is University of Illinois- the Fighting Illini. U of I is attended by students locally, statewide, and also from all around the world- especially many from Asia. For many years we had Chief Illiniwek until U of I got sued and he was taken away due to being discriminatory. Today, U of I is still the Fighting Illini, but we have no mascot. I miss our mascot, as pretty much all other teams have mascots. Isn't it possible to use Chief Illiniwek in a nondiscrimatory way? I still have Chief Illiniwek t-shirts, sweat shirts, etc. and still wear them and so on...

    Complain about this comment

  • 57. At 7:44pm on 17 Aug 2010, RHCracker wrote:

    A little bumper sticker wisdom to believe in.

    GOD GUNS AND GUTS MADE AMERICA LETS KEEP ALL THREE.


    Complain about this comment

  • 58. At 7:46pm on 17 Aug 2010, GH1618 wrote:

    "As for the statement that most of the land was uninhibited, that is absoluely untrue." (from middleofnowhere at 52)

    Things are certainly "uninhibited" out here in the middle of somewhere (San Francisco)!

    Complain about this comment

  • 59. At 7:50pm on 17 Aug 2010, Andy Post wrote:

    'Greg Fettig says the Church has been infiltrated by progressives who promote homosexuality, abortion, open borders "and other beliefs contrary to biblical teachings".'

    The Church? Which church is that? The Roman Catholic Church? Greek Orthodox? Southern Baptist? Episcopal?

    They vary widely in what they believe the Bible teaches. Perhaps Mr. Fettig would like us all to fall in line with what he thinks?

    Sorry, Dude, but I don't care what you believe, and you're certainly not going to tell me what I can and cannot do, especially in church.

    That's why we have the First Amendment. Keep religion out of government.

    As far as the TEA Party goes, add religion and you get the Moral Majority.

    Been there. Done that. Not interested.

    Complain about this comment

  • 60. At 7:57pm on 17 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    53. At 7:20pm on 17 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    Much the criticism of the Tea Party is recycled criticism levelled against Republicans, Conservatives, religious right, etc.

    A lot of recycled anger directed at a substitute.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Recycling is a virtue is it not?

    And a subsitution for an evil may still be evil may it not?

    Complain about this comment

  • 61. At 8:00pm on 17 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    41. At 5:58pm on 17 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:
    Elena wrote:

    "Greg Fettig saying that the Church has been infiltrated is basically him saying that his views of christianity and the bible are the *only* acceptable views allowed. So Anglicans who bless gay unions, Catholics because they're Catholics, etc. are all equally false religions, because they really *aren't* following the ways of Christ, and their members will all burn in the bowels of hell along with the Jews, Moslems, atheists, gays, buddhists, etc etc etc. I'm sure Greg is going to have a hard time recruiting enough "God's warriors" to wage any significant war for his cause with that narrow-minded take. The Tea Party would be wise to keep people like him and their "God" at arm's length..."

    Would you be so brave and moral to insert Muslims in the place of Christians, Allah in the place of God and any well known radical cleric in the place of Fettig?

    After all, it is Muslims that are the ones that are waging a "significant war," throughout the world.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Really what war is that.

    Christians are waging a few too aren't they

    Fettig and Bozell - another US company I would patronise

    Complain about this comment

  • 62. At 8:01pm on 17 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    36. At 5:33pm on 17 Aug 2010, Tommy wrote:
    Blueberry asked which God. Most of the TP members would have us look to the God of the Bible. Which Bible - Doesn't matter. If you look in the Bible, you will find God.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    So your God is a squashed moth?

    Complain about this comment

  • 63. At 8:04pm on 17 Aug 2010, Englishmanininvegas wrote:

    Religion is the LAST thing that should be integrated into a political party that seeks to govern a people as diverse as we have here in the USA (and I write this as a board member and the Music Director of a church here).

    At its heart - religion is fundamentally divisive:

    MY God is better than your God

    MY Interpretation of the [state-your-holy-book] is superior to yours

    There is only room in heaven for people exactly like ME....

    If there was ONE world religion that we all (willingly) embraced this might be feasibe - but there isn't

    If we are going to integrate a particular religious philosophy into our system of government - let it be that of the Greek Gods on Mt Olympus !

    Chris

    Complain about this comment

  • 64. At 8:10pm on 17 Aug 2010, carolinalady wrote:

    Thank you, arclight...you are spot on! Brilliant analyis in #43.

    It isn't easy to disagree with someone else's idiocy but choose to defend to the death his right to say it. That is what our Constitution both enables and requires of American citizens. It requires that we be educated to understand our duties and responsibilites, and to be able to discern among charlatans, demagogues and honest civil servants.

    A certain amount of rededication to principle might be in order.

    Complain about this comment

  • 65. At 8:10pm on 17 Aug 2010, Andy Post wrote:

    Ref. 56, LucyJ:

    "Isn't it possible to use Chief Illiniwek in a nondiscrimatory way? I still have Chief Illiniwek t-shirts, sweat shirts, etc. and still wear them and so on..."

    No, not really. American Indians (which is what they prefer to be called) view the conquest of North America by Europeans in a similar light that Jews view the Holocaust. Can you imagine if the Nazis had won World War II and today called one of their football teams The Fighting Jews?

    Now think of the mascot. They could dress him up in all the regalia of a Rabbi. Nothing caricature like. Shows respect, right?

    Sure, they could use the name in a "non-discriminatory" way. They could assert that it really isn't referring to the Holocaust, that it's all about football, not mass murder.

    But it is about mass murder, isn't it? And it always will be.

    Complain about this comment

  • 66. At 8:39pm on 17 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    The thing is, whatever happened in the past happened long ago, before people like us were born. So we are left putting together the pieces. But if our European ancestors hadn't done what they had done, USA would not be the USA it is today. Just like if the British hadn't done what they had done, Austraila wouldn't be like what it is today, either. Perhaps what our European ancestors did, right or wrong, happened for a reason, which is why we are here today...USA was meant to be.

    I don't have all the answers, but growing up, we always had Indian mascots for our school teams, which makes people such as myself feel part-Indian (not genetically) ourselves, because we have been rooting for the Warriors, our team, which have been around since the 20's, our whole lives. I have never made fun of Indians and have always looked up to them as mystical, spiritual human beings who simply love the Earth. The aliens in Avatar and Aborigines from Austraila are similar in a way to our Natives. One of my older brothers did Indian dancing taught by some of the Natives themselves and he was always very respectful to them, got to dress up in real authentic costume and so on. He always said that those particular Natives that taught him enjoyed teaching their traditions and culture to the youths like himself. Even though he was white.

    Andy, have you ever done Native American dancing?

    Complain about this comment

  • 67. At 8:39pm on 17 Aug 2010, GH1618 wrote:

    Here is a link to a brief history of the Illiniwek which I found interesting: The Illiniwek

    Complain about this comment

  • 68. At 8:58pm on 17 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    I don't know that your comparison is exactly equal, Andy.

    The European settlers and the Indians fought over who could own the land. They both used any tactics they could against the other- no matter how low. They both lost many people. It did not have to do with racism, but instead had to do with owning the land. I do not think it would have mattered if the Indians were white, tan or black-it was about two groups fighting over the land grab. And this is not something that only happened in America. All over the world, there have two or more groups fighting for certain areas of land in various spots.

    In the Holocaust the Germans rounded up all the Jewish people and either murdered them or put them in camps to be labor, where they worked, starved and/or were murdered. They also had experients done on Jewish people, especially the children. There is a lady who is a Holocaust survivor who has told us of her life in which she was a twin, and that several German doctors did all sorts of experiments on them, trying to see if what affected one twin would affect the other. One twin survived, the other twin did not. The twin that survived has health problems today from those experiments. The Holocaust had nothing to do with land and everything to do with racism.

    Complain about this comment

  • 69. At 9:01pm on 17 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    64. carolinalady:

    "A certain amount of rededication to principle might be in order."

    ***************
    A lot of the Tea Party is principle-based, but its association with Christianity and republicans pretty much puts it in front of a firing squad. It is the enemy. Period.

    How are principles supposed to become prominent again if the response is always a knee-jerk negative reaction to anything that even smells of the enemy (ex., the "other side")?

    This is why I take with a large grain of salt proclamations from Americans about their "doing the right thing" and honoring unpopular positions, about their taking "principled" positions. They can barely tolerate an opposing viewpoint at this point.

    Complain about this comment

  • 70. At 9:29pm on 17 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    66. LucyJ:

    "Perhaps what our European ancestors did, right or wrong, happened for a reason, which is why we are here today...USA was meant to be."

    ****************
    I really enjoy your spirit, Lucy. It's out of favor to feel the way you do about the US, and praising the US opens you up to ridicule.

    I concur that the US is a great, great place. I thank God almost every day that I was born here instead of the many other countries that my ancestors came from. So many more opportunities and freedoms available here. I love those other countries and appreciate their cultures but am always grateful that it's here that I wound up. I'm glad it was "meant to be" here.

    Complain about this comment

  • 71. At 9:44pm on 17 Aug 2010, GH1618 wrote:

    "They (Americans) can barely tolerate an opposing viewpoint at this point." (from AndreaNY at 69)

    What a sweeping (and unfounded) generalization! As if we Americans were all the same! A few Americans go onto a web forum and display their narrow-mindedness, so no American has principles?

    Complain about this comment

  • 72. At 10:01pm on 17 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    71. GH1618:

    "They (Americans) can barely tolerate an opposing viewpoint at this point." (from AndreaNY at 69)

    What a sweeping (and unfounded) generalization! As if we Americans were all the same! A few Americans go onto a web forum and display their narrow-mindedness, so no American has principles?

    *****************************

    Oh, yeah?? Wanna bet?? (sarcasm off)

    Complain about this comment

  • 73. At 10:03pm on 17 Aug 2010, Spottletoe wrote:

    GH1618:

    Apparently it's only Americans who think the U.S. is blessed by a particular god that makes it better than any other place on earth who have principles. These people are so principled that they won't tolerate either those who find fault with aspects of the blessed country or those who don't bow down to the god.

    Complain about this comment

  • 74. At 10:04pm on 17 Aug 2010, John_From_Dublin wrote:

    # 40. At 5:53pm on 17 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    "Its not just conservatives who attend Tea Party rallies. There are many former moderate Democrats, such as myself, who now call themselves Independents and have joined the Tea Party movement. My whole life I was a registered Democrat up until now, in which I have switched parties due to the Obama Admin. ultraliberal divisive policies. My fave President, to this day, is Bill Clinton, because I favored most all of his policies. I never thought I would stray from the Dems, but the way that much country music is now pop, many Dems are now ultraliberal Dems instead of moderate Dems. Rather than Obama doing what is right for the whole of America, Obama is doing what is right for the ultraliberals agenda, which is why I can no longer vote Democrat...

    Every time President Obama supports another controversial issue, it makes the GOP and Tea Party's stocks go up."

    Another pixellated pile of piffle.

    One of Lucy's obsessive examples of Obama's "ultraliberal divisive policies" is gays in the military. As I pointed out to her on the previous thread, this was a policy Clinton ran on and tried to implement in power. The so-called 'Don't Ask Don't Tell' was the best he could achieve as a compromise.

    I would also love her to explain how it is an "ultraliberal divisive policy" to change from having the same policy as the first list to the same as the second

    List 1

    # China
    # Cuba
    # Egypt
    # Iran
    # Jamaica
    # North Korea
    # Pakistan
    # Saudi Arabia
    # Serbia
    # Singapore
    # South Korea
    # Syria
    # Turkey
    # Venezuela
    # Yemen
    # Greece

    List 2

    * 2.1 Albania
    * 2.2 Argentina
    * 2.3 Australia
    * 2.4 Austria
    * 2.5 Belgium
    * 2.6 Bermuda
    * 2.7 Canada
    * 2.8 Colombia
    * 2.9 Czech Republic
    * 2.10 Denmark
    * 2.11 Estonia
    * 2.12 Finland
    * 2.13 France
    * 2.14 Germany
    * 2.15 Ireland
    * 2.16 Israel
    * 2.17 Italy
    * 2.18 Lithuania
    * 2.19 Luxembourg
    * 2.20 Malta
    * 2.21 The Netherlands
    * 2.22 New Zealand
    * 2.23 Norway
    * 2.24 Peru
    * 2.25 Philippines
    * 2.26 Romania
    * 2.27 Russia
    * 2.28 Slovenia
    * 2.29 South Africa
    * 2.30 Spain
    * 2.31 Sweden
    * 2.32 Switzerland
    * 2.33 Taiwan
    * 2.34 United Kingdom
    * 2.35 Uruguay


    Complain about this comment

  • 75. At 10:17pm on 17 Aug 2010, GH1618 wrote:

    Spottletoe (73): "Apparently it's only Americans who think ..."

    No, it's individuals who think particular thoughts, and the US is a diverse group of 300 million individuals who each have their own thoughts and beliefs.

    Complain about this comment

  • 76. At 10:27pm on 17 Aug 2010, Andy Post wrote:

    Ref. 66, LucyJ:

    "Andy, have you ever done Native American dancing?"

    No, I'm not much of a dancer of any type. I've watched it a few times. I don't understand it, really. I don't understand the language and no one bothers to translate what's being sung (if anything). I don't know that it would make any difference, though. While in the Black Hills last year I had the opportunity to browse a library dedicated to the beliefs of the Plains Indians. I can't say those religion resonated with me in any significant way. I'm not a hunter-gatherer. I'm a child of technology. The world isn't as big a mystery for me as it was for them.

    As far as how I myself feel about Indian mascots, I can't help but be affected by how I came to know them, i.e. through Baseball and Football. When I think of the Washington Redskins for instance, I think of the days when I was a St. Louis Cardinals fan and the 'Skins were our rivals (along with the Cowboys, Giants, and Eagles). It's all about the NFL for me. Mass murder, relocation, and re-education doesn't come to mind.

    The argument I laid out in my last post does hold water for me, though, even though I admit it took me a while to come around. I thought it was so much mindless political correctness at first. However, even though the mascots of my youth are solely associated with sports for me, I can see how that might very well not be the case for others, and, really, it's the sports I love. The mascots come as part of the package.

    I'm guessing I can be happy keeping the sports while phasing out the mascots over time. It's far more important to the Indians than it is to me. I'll fight for things that really make a difference to me. This isn't one of them.

    Complain about this comment

  • 77. At 10:38pm on 17 Aug 2010, Andy Post wrote:

    Ref. 70, AndreaNY:

    "[P]raising the US opens you up to ridicule."

    I don't know about that. Over the last few years I've made a number of pro-American arguments. Other posters have disagreed, but ridicule? Not really.

    I'd also say the level of anti-Americanism has dropped significantly since the end of the Bush administration. It crops up from time to time but with nothing like the gusto it used to have. Those were the golden years of this forum. *sigh*

    Many posters log in just for the debate (yours truly withstanding) and that naturally brings out the contrarian in all of us. If we all agreed, this would be a pretty boring place.

    Complain about this comment

  • 78. At 10:45pm on 17 Aug 2010, John_From_Dublin wrote:

    An interesting insight into the 'monster-mega-Mosque' controversy, I thought

    http://www.salon.com/news/ground_zero_mosque/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2010/08/16/ground_zero_mosque_origins

    Apparently much of it sprang from an extreme right wing fruit loop who thinks Malcolm X was Obama's father...

    Complain about this comment

  • 79. At 10:46pm on 17 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    70. At 9:29pm on 17 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    66. LucyJ:

    "Perhaps what our European ancestors did, right or wrong, happened for a reason, which is why we are here today...USA was meant to be."

    ****************
    I really enjoy your spirit, Lucy. It's out of favor to feel the way you do about the US, and praising the US opens you up to ridicule."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Why should it not open you to ridicule? Is there a law somewhere saying otherwise?

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I concur that the US is a great, great place. I thank God almost every day that I was born here instead of the many other countries that my ancestors came from. So many more opportunities and freedoms available here. I love those other countries and appreciate their cultures but am always grateful that it's here that I wound up. I'm glad it was "meant to be" here."
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    And if you were born somewhere else you would feel differently. Where does that get us.

    Complain about this comment

  • 80. At 10:50pm on 17 Aug 2010, Andy Post wrote:

    Ref. 68, LucyJ:

    "I don't know that your comparison is exactly equal, Andy."

    No, not exactly. However, it was more than just a fight between equals for land. We wiped the cultures of many tribes from history. It's almost as if they never existed. Up until the 60s the U.S. was still taking Indian children from their parents forcefully and putting them in schools designed to teach them how to be productive Americans. This included prohibiting the children from speaking their language, from observing their religion (and being forced to practice Christianity), and from giving any value to their culture. It was ethnic cleansing pure and simple.

    But, Americans weren't conscious of what they were doing for the most part. The Nazis were very much so, and I do think that makes a difference... but what we did is still awful.

    The funny thing is that most Americans know more about what happened in Germany than in their own country! So, I felt the parallel was useful.

    Complain about this comment

  • 81. At 10:51pm on 17 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    69. At 9:01pm on 17 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    64. carolinalady:

    "A certain amount of rededication to principle might be in order."

    ***************
    A lot of the Tea Party is principle-based, but its association with Christianity and republicans pretty much puts it in front of a firing squad. It is the enemy. Period."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well some of its members are obviously rascist - shouting slogans at black congressmen.

    And why exactly should they not be opposed - again is there a law somewhere saying the US right has a naturally privileged role?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    How are principles supposed to become prominent again if the response is always a knee-jerk negative reaction to anything that even smells of the enemy (ex., the "other side")?"
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So any who oppose the tea party do not have principles?

    Surely the US right and prinicples are not exactly synonomous are they?

    Other principles are possible?
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Complain about this comment

  • 82. At 10:53pm on 17 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    59. At 7:50pm on 17 Aug 2010, Andy Post wrote:
    'Greg Fettig says the Church has been infiltrated by progressives who promote homosexuality, abortion, open borders "and other beliefs contrary to biblical teachings".'



    How does one promote homosexuality? Heterosexuals spend enormous amounts of time and treasure trying to promote heterosexuality in the opposite sex, but most end up celibate most of the time.

    Complain about this comment

  • 83. At 10:57pm on 17 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    65. At 8:10pm on 17 Aug 2010, Andy Post wrote:
    Ref. 56, LucyJ:

    "Isn't it possible to use Chief Illiniwek in a nondiscrimatory way? I still have Chief Illiniwek t-shirts, sweat shirts, etc. and still wear them and so on..."

    No, not really. American Indians (which is what they prefer to be called) view the conquest of North America by Europeans in a similar light that Jews view the Holocaust. Can you imagine if the Nazis had won World War II and today called one of their football teams The Fighting Jews?

    Now think of the mascot. They could dress him up in all the regalia of a Rabbi. Nothing caricature like. Shows respect, right?

    Sure, they could use the name in a "non-discriminatory" way. They could assert that it really isn't referring to the Holocaust, that it's all about football, not mass murder.

    But it is about mass murder, isn't it? And it always will be."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The conquest of the Americas is considered to have been one of the greatest genocides ever to overtake human beings.

    Only now are some civilisations being uncovered, apparently they were totally wiped out by the Spanish and the other invaders.

    Complain about this comment

  • 84. At 11:03pm on 17 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    44. At 6:30pm on 17 Aug 2010, Spottletoe wrote:
    Comment #36 is scary and typifies why this country is being held back, behind those in the rest of the "first" world.

    There is a certain talk show host who disparages "secular progressives" as if the expression is a pejorative. Look carefully at those words; define them in your mind. Then think about whether the opposite, "religious regressives," is really what you want to extol and whether heading in that direction will be good for the country."
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    This is the problem with the US. In no other western country would such a fool be tolerated - perhaps in Serbia.

    Political discourse in the US spends a lot of time and wind debating issues which other passed on decades ago.


    Complain about this comment

  • 85. At 11:16pm on 17 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    81. Simon21:

    "Well some of its members are obviously rascist - shouting slogans at black congressmen."

    *****************
    Are you aware that this hasn't been corroborated? Powerlineblog has written about it extensively. Brietbart offered a $10,000 reward for proof but it was never claimed. The accusers have gone silent. A very strange situation.

    Complain about this comment

  • 86. At 11:20pm on 17 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    79. Simon21:

    "And if you were born somewhere else you would feel differently. Where does that get us."

    ******************8
    But I wasn't. I was born here with all my individual rights, opportunities and privileges -- wonderful things, especially for a woman.

    Complain about this comment

  • 87. At 11:20pm on 17 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    80. At 10:50pm on 17 Aug 2010, Andy Post wrote:
    Ref. 68, LucyJ:


    But, Americans weren't conscious of what they were doing for the most part. The Nazis were very much so, and I do think that makes a difference... but what we did is still awful.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    But it makes no difference to the victim does it? Those on the receiving end are not overly concerned at what the aggressor knows and doesn't know.

    Complain about this comment

  • 88. At 11:22pm on 17 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    68. At 8:58pm on 17 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:
    I don't know that your comparison is exactly equal, Andy.

    The European settlers and the Indians fought over who could own the land. They both used any tactics they could against the other- no matter how low. They both lost many people. It did not have to do with racism, but instead had to do with owning the land. I do not think it would have mattered if the Indians were white, tan or black-it was about two groups fighting over the land grab. And this is not something that only happened in America. All over the world, there have two or more groups fighting for certain areas of land in various spots.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The indians actually owned the land though didn't they Lucy. And the Indians were not invading the UK or Spain were they?

    Even the colonists recognised this.

    And the fact that theft and murder take place in Ecuador does not mean it is ok to do it in the US.


    Complain about this comment

  • 89. At 11:28pm on 17 Aug 2010, middleofnowhere wrote:

    Lucy J and Andy P
    I have really enjoyed reading your discussion.
    Just to clarify on the college mascot issue - that is an NCAA rule (college athletic association). If a school decides to keep the Native mascot then they don't get to compete in sports and activities with the other NCAA schools. And that's a pretty big deal for a State University like Illinois. Some secondary schools have changed their mascot because they believed they would be sued.
    The result of US policy towards Natives, through assimilation techniques used for the last 100+ years, has resulted in a heavy loss of culture. When one travels to the Sioux or Navajo reservations it is very evident those techniques are still being used. While several tribes are now making their own money through the use of casino's rather than government subsidies, no amount of money can make up for the loss of cultural heritage.
    The basis for assimilation came from fear of something different, which I believe is also the basis for the Tea Party movement.

    Complain about this comment

  • 90. At 11:37pm on 17 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    85. At 11:16pm on 17 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    81. Simon21:

    "Well some of its members are obviously rascist - shouting slogans at black congressmen."

    *****************
    Are you aware that this hasn't been corroborated? Powerlineblog has written about it extensively. Brietbart offered a $10,000 reward for proof but it was never claimed. The accusers have gone silent. A very strange situation.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    You are aware that the congressman claimed it did take place, and most right wingers have simply dismissed him.

    We have one poster here who claims "there is no evidence" despite the fact there obviously is.

    It is hard to avoid the view that because of the COngressman's colour his testimony has automatically been discounted.

    AS for the "reward" if you are going to dismiss the key witness and the culprits are going to deny it what proof can there be?

    Complain about this comment

  • 91. At 11:40pm on 17 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    86. At 11:20pm on 17 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    79. Simon21:

    "And if you were born somewhere else you would feel differently. Where does that get us."

    ******************8
    But I wasn't. I was born here with all my individual rights, opportunities and privileges -- wonderful things, especially for a woman.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Pity you are not concerned to have them extended to other women even in your own country eh?

    Complain about this comment

  • 92. At 11:40pm on 17 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    But I wasn't. I was born here with all my individual rights, opportunities and privileges -- wonderful things, especially for a woman.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    But it was muslim countries in the third world, bangladesh and pakistan, that elected women to be their leaders...Never happened in usa, and after the pathetic show of the two women and how they were pathetically ridiculed in your elections, there is no chance that women in usa will think about aiming so high..You can, sheepishly boast about the opportunities or rights...

    Complain about this comment

  • 93. At 11:50pm on 17 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    89. At 11:28pm on 17 Aug 2010, middleofnowhere wrote:

    The result of US policy towards Natives, through assimilation techniques used for the last 100+ years, has resulted in a heavy loss of culture. When one travels to the Sioux or Navajo reservations it is very evident those techniques are still being used. While several tribes are now making their own money through the use of casino's rather than government subsidies, no amount of money can make up for the loss of cultural heritage.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    It is amusing (because one is not on the receiving end) to note the change of attitude.

    Originally land stealing, murder (often called clearances) suppression of native culture was justified under the arguement that "savages" knew no law and had no rights.

    Then it was concluded that the "savages" were citizens, but had no right to insist on any compensation or special consideration from other citizens, as this would be discriminatory.

    So either way the natives lose - you are inferior to us so we can take your property - you are the equivalent of us so we do not hve to give your property or its equivalent back.




    Complain about this comment

  • 94. At 11:54pm on 17 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    92. colonelartist:

    "But it was muslim countries in the third world, bangladesh and pakistan, that elected women to be their leaders."

    ****************
    Yes, but I'd rather be a free woman with my individual and protected rights than a leader of anything anywhere.

    And, simon, as much as you try to turn my own deep appreciation for being born in the US into so many other things, you are mistaken. You know nothing of me other than that I have a profound appreciation for women's individual rights and a resentment of anyone who would unjustly deny women of those rights and their independence. That seems to really bother you. No surprise there. Thank goodness you only get to judge but not mete out your own justice.

    Complain about this comment

  • 95. At 00:07am on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    And whats important is that in usa when the settlers were busy enslaving the blacks, and getting rid of the red indians by killing them, not to mention the germs and virsues they brought with them from europe, which killed thousands of red indians, (pathetically the west is now talking about superbug from india). In india, there was a muslim slave who was made the ruler, and whose daughter overtook the rule...In the west women got their rights and equal opportunities some decades ago, in muslim countries, the women got their rights and free will 1500 yrs ago...

    Complain about this comment

  • 96. At 00:11am on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    Yes, but I'd rather be a free woman with my individual and protected rights than a leader of anything anywhere.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    So, you are aware of your limits as a woman....in other words, the men have given you a limited rights and opportunities...."Thus far and no more"...

    Complain about this comment

  • 97. At 00:14am on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    94. At 11:54pm on 17 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    92. colonelartist:

    "But it was muslim countries in the third world, bangladesh and pakistan, that elected women to be their leaders."

    ****************
    Yes, but I'd rather be a free woman with my individual and protected rights than a leader of anything anywhere."
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Not a very pithy reply is it.

    And Col does have a fact that Bangladesh, Pakistan and now Indonesia (the largest moslem countty) have all elected female leaders, something the US does not even look like doing. Why is this? Given, according to you, they have no rights n'all?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And, simon, as much as you try to turn my own deep appreciation for being born in the US into so many other things, you are mistaken. You know nothing of me other than that I have a profound appreciation for women's individual rights and a resentment of anyone who would unjustly deny women of those rights and their independence."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Except if that occurs in your own country as we have shown. In which case that appreciation seems somewhat less than profound.

    And as I recall your definition of "freedom" and "independence" came largely down to driving rights - risible.

    Of course as one with a full stomach, money and security "freedom" might come down to driving licences, clothing etc.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That seems to really bother you. No surprise there. Thank goodness you only get to judge but not mete out your own justice."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    No Andrea I find your well monied complacency amusing. I have added your stirling defence of Female Freedom = Driving to your earlier interesting views on pornography.

    A fan of monty python I would dearly love to see the sort of country you would rule.

    Like the rest of the world, I wouldn't want to live in it though.

    Complain about this comment

  • 98. At 00:16am on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    The most funny rememberance day in usa is the columbus day...Now, imagine, the red indians being taught that it was columbus who first discovered america...

    Complain about this comment

  • 99. At 00:17am on 18 Aug 2010, mabelwhite wrote:

    #31 Oh yeah - make up some freaky whacked out argument at maybe the middle school level 'bout how some people might unrealistically idolize Native American culture (but then again, Native Americans are HOT), then proceed to comment on how freaky that argument would be if someone actually argued it. Heck, you can't lose!
    How about showing just a little R-E-S-P-E-C-T..ohhhh
    I get tired (just a little bit)
    Keep on tryin' (just a little bit)
    You're runnin' out of foolin' (just a little bit)
    And I ain't lyin' (just a little bit)

    #36 "It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand." - Mark Twain

    Complain about this comment

  • 100. At 00:21am on 18 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:

    middleofnowhere wrote:

    "The result of US policy towards Natives, through assimilation techniques used for the last 100+ years, has resulted in a heavy loss of culture."

    No one in America is forced to give up any culture. That's ridiculous.

    And everyone born in America is a native! Look up the definition of the word!

    "When one travels to the Sioux or Navajo reservations it is very evident those techniques are still being used. While several tribes are now making their own money through the use of casino's rather than government subsidies, no amount of money can make up for the loss of cultural heritage."

    As I said, no one in America is forced to give up their "cultural heritage!" I am an American Indian and you are simply talking nonsense!

    You sound like a typical anti-American foreigner that visits one of our reservations and now you think you know everything there is to know about American Indian culture, as if somehow it was one.

    If you knew what you were talking about you would know that much of the culture of American Indians is part of American culture! Half of our states names, for example, are Indian names or derived from them!

    And you say "several tribes are now making their own money through the use of casino's?" Where have you been? It's far more than "several" and it has been going on for decades now.

    And unlike the picture you try to paint American Indians are free to go and do as they wish as any other American can in his own country. No one is forced to live in a reservation of land and no one is forced to live on welfare!

    "The basis for assimilation came from fear of something different, which I believe is also the basis for the Tea Party movement."

    It is people like you that America needs to watch out for! People that promote, support and perpetuate divisions and racism in communities and countries throughout the world!

    Complain about this comment

  • 101. At 00:21am on 18 Aug 2010, mabelwhite wrote:

    #95 - HAH and then they all lived happily ever after and no muslim ever raised a hand in violence against another again...you know, apart from the occasional hand severing or stoning, meanwhile back at the ranch...

    I CHALLENGE someone to come us with a massacre sponsored by the Buddhist religion.

    Islam and Christianity already clearly fail to qualify for the finals due to the Spanish Inquisition, 9/11, and various abusive yet priestly activities

    Complain about this comment

  • 102. At 00:26am on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    99. At 00:17am on 18 Aug 2010, mabelwhite wrote:

    "#36 "It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand." - Mark Twain "
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Brilliant quote. The more one reads of MW the more one likes him.

    Complain about this comment

  • 103. At 00:27am on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    And as I recall your definition of "freedom" and "independence" came largely down to driving rights - risible.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I think she is still stuck after the gulf war yrs...when, the americans soldiers stationed themselves in saudiarabia to wage war against iraq...Instead of liberating kurds, they started liberating the women in saudiarabia, their favourite freedom for saudi arabian women...."now women will drive their own cars"...

    Complain about this comment

  • 104. At 00:30am on 18 Aug 2010, mabelwhite wrote:

    #100 I don't think you are correct, you should look up some accurate history about Native American culture and the European invasion, and subsequent years up to the present date. Then, after you dry your tears, you can apologize.

    Complain about this comment

  • 105. At 00:33am on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    I CHALLENGE someone to come us with a massacre sponsored by the Buddhist religion.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    What do you think the people of nepal, the maoists are? Muslims? or christians? And I believe you have never heard of buddists in bhutan, who routinely persecute the hindus and chritian population of the country...

    Complain about this comment

  • 106. At 00:34am on 18 Aug 2010, Agent 00Soul wrote:

    Can someone please explain to me why Americans seem more concerned with this abject ideals - esp patriotism - that do nothing to help them out of their dire straits?

    Complain about this comment

  • 107. At 00:37am on 18 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:

    Simon21 wrote:

    "The indians actually owned the land though didn't they Lucy."

    In some cases they did but in the vast majority of the cases they simply did not.

    Even if you go with the highest estimated numbers of Indians on the precolonial continent they occupied just a tiny fraction of the lands that were to become America, Canada, Mexico, etc.

    As an American Indian I acknowledge that politically incorrect fact!

    And if you are so concerned about Indians back then that lost lands to the white man where is your concern for all the wars and land grabs that took place between the many different Indian tribes? Or is this simply an issue against the white man, or what you perceive to be the typical non-Indian American? Yeah, that's exactly what it is, isn't it!

    "And the Indians were not invading the UK or Spain were they?"

    No, they invaded each others territories! And if many of those Indian tribes had the means to do it they most certainly would have invaded territories on other continents. They would have also done it in some of the most brutal and savage ways imaginable!

    Complain about this comment

  • 108. At 00:47am on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    100. At 00:21am on 18 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:
    middleo

    You sound like a typical anti-American foreigner that visits one of our reservations and now you think you know everything there is to know about American Indian culture, as if somehow it was one."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Do tell us what an anti-american foreigner is when its at home. I gather it is anyone who disagrees with the wacko views of the extreme right.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    No one in America is forced to give up any culture. That's ridiculous."
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    So you are suggesting that those American natives who were annihlated did not give up their culture.

    That is an interestng view.

    Practically every other indigenous people in the world would disagree.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    As I said, no one in America is forced to give up their "cultural heritage!" I am an American Indian and you are simply talking nonsense!"
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So those cultures whihc were wiped out are still what - around?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    If you knew what you were talking about you would know that much of the culture of American Indians is part of American culture! Half of our states names, for example, are Indian names or derived from them!"
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Yeh and many place names in Oz come from Koori languages. But here's a tip don't suggest to a koori that this means their culture has been assimilated into mainstream Australia.

    They will laugh you (at best) out of the room. Not Tasmanian Koories, they don't exist any more.

    Claiming a place name means the survival of a culture is ludicrous.

    You presumably beleive that Catholic Mexico is in fact a blend of Aztec culture since the country is called Mexico (a nuahtl word)?

    A sensible person might posit that culural survival has more to do with language, values, religion etc than a place name. And if a culture is founded on the land, as many are, then removing the inhabitants destroys the centre on which their culture is based.

    Complain about this comment

  • 109. At 00:49am on 18 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    GH1618 wrote:
    Here is a link to a brief history of the Illiniwek which I found interesting: The Illiniwek
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    GH, this was a very informative link. It tells us that, among other things, the Indians were not only battling European settlers for land, the different tribes were also battling each other for land. I thought it was interesting how the Illiniwek actually took captives for hostage rather than kill them and only began torturing captives after the Iriquois tribe was torturing them. The diseases from Europe which the Indians were not exposed to before were very brutal indeed.

    70, Andrea,
    Thank you for your comment. For all the positive and negative things about our country, overall, there is no other place in the world I would rather live and I also thank God and my lucky stars for the things I do have. I am not one of those people who is ungrateful, nor thinks I am entitled to anything. I believe in quality, love and positivity.
    I also believe in the USA...

    colonelartist wrote:
    after the pathetic show of the two women and how they were pathetically ridiculed in your elections, there is no chance that women in usa will think about aiming so high
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    So running for President is now pathetic if its done by a woman?
    Ha, ha, colonel! Not so fast! I would not be surprised if a woman was President of the USA in the next ten years. What happened in the last election is a sign of things to come. And in fact, I believe Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin are causing women to aim higher than ever before!
    What do we have to lose?

    Complain about this comment

  • 110. At 00:49am on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    104. At 00:30am on 18 Aug 2010, mabelwhite wrote:
    #100 I don't think you are correct, you should look up some accurate history about Native American culture and the European invasion, and subsequent years up to the present date. Then, after you dry your tears, you can apologize.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    It is clear this genius has never spoken to indigenous peoples from other so-called liberal democracies.

    To say placenames indicate cultural survival is up there with some of Andrea's comments

    Complain about this comment

  • 111. At 00:51am on 18 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:

    "But, Americans weren't conscious of what they were doing for the most part. The Nazis were very much so, and I do think that makes a difference... but what we did is still awful."

    Don't pander to them Lucy. As an American Indian I know very well how "awful" many Indians and their tribes were. Don't let them play their anti-American left wing liberal guilt trip on you. You did not do anything to any Indians and no more Indians exist of the type that routinely murdered and mutilated innocent settlers, women and children, for simply passing through or settling too close to their territories.

    If you were born in America it is your place to say to them that it is ignorant at best to refer to American Indians as natives to the exclusion of other native Americans of different races and at worse it is downright racist!

    Always be proud to be American because such people are ultimately anti-American. All they wish to do is tear you, and every other proud and patriotic American, down as much as they can. All they wish to do is to divide us because ultimately they hate us.

    Complain about this comment

  • 112. At 00:54am on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    I CHALLENGE someone to come us with a massacre sponsored by the Buddhist religion.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    http://bhutannews.blogspot.com/2008_11_01_archive.html

    I have tried to find out any link to massacre by the buddhists in bhutan of 1955 or somewhere near it, but couldnt....

    If china started supported bhutan, the atrocities commited by buddists in bhutan will be a regular topic in the west...

    Complain about this comment

  • 113. At 00:54am on 18 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:

    colonelartist wrote:

    "In the west women got their rights and equal opportunities some decades ago, in muslim countries, the women got their rights and free will 1500 yrs ago..."

    Oh really? So what went so horribly wrong? :)

    Complain about this comment

  • 114. At 00:57am on 18 Aug 2010, Agent 00Soul wrote:

    @111 "Always be proud to be American because such people are ultimately anti-American. All they wish to do is tear you, and every other proud and patriotic American, down as much as they can. All they wish to do is to divide us because ultimately they hate us."

    This is what I'm talking about. What kind of thing to write is this - who does it help? How is it going to get Americans thinking about the problems they face??

    Complain about this comment

  • 115. At 01:01am on 18 Aug 2010, crash wrote:

    It is rather ironic that you can talk Islam,Judaism,zen,Rasterferion,But for gods sake don't mention the horrendous form of Christianity.This makes you a zealot maybe even a nazi,a right wing nut case !may be even one of those nut cases who doesn't trust the government.
    I wondered what angle the press was going to take against the tea party,i guess they will just fall back and pull the old Christianity card what a nasty smear !

    Complain about this comment

  • 116. At 01:02am on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    107. At 00:37am on 18 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:
    Simon21 wrote:

    "The indians actually owned the land though didn't they Lucy."

    In some cases they did but in the vast majority of the cases they simply did not."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    On what do you base this distinction? How did one clan or tribe own land and another did not.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Even if you go with the highest estimated numbers of Indians on the precolonial continent they occupied just a tiny fraction of the lands that were to become America, Canada, Mexico, etc. "
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Oh it is population density, I see. So by that inane reasoning the present inhabitants of the US do not own much of the SW, vast swathes of New England and nearly all of he Dakotas

    Like to try again o wise one.

    Incidently Mexico was more densely populated than Spain.

    So the Spanish did not own Spain?

    Do you know Andrea?
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------


    As an American Indian I acknowledge that politically incorrect fact!
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    I don't know or care if you are an American Indian, I do know you need to read more.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And if you are so concerned about Indians back then that lost lands to the white man where is your concern for all the wars and land grabs that took place between the many different Indian tribes? Or is this simply an issue against the white man, or what you perceive to be the typical non-Indian American? Yeah, that's exactly what it is, isn't it!"
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I thought you just said you were an Indian, what nation I wonder, the Tea Party clan, the Palin people?

    Not tellin porkies are we?

    Yes european annhilation of the native Americans involved the white man.

    Missed that did you my supposed indian friend?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "And the Indians were not invading the UK or Spain were they?"

    No, they invaded each others territories! And if many of those Indian tribes had the means to do it they most certainly would have invaded territories on other continents. They would have also done it in some of the most brutal and savage ways imaginable!
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    But they didn't did they. The white man invaded their territories and butchered/cleared them.

    Point proven - that was easy

    Complain about this comment

  • 117. At 01:02am on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    So running for President is now pathetic if its done by a woman?
    Ha, ha, colonel! Not so fast! I would not be surprised if a woman was President of the USA in the next ten years. What happened in the last election is a sign of things to come. And in fact, I believe Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin are causing women to aim higher than ever before!
    What do we have to lose?
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We can bet on it if you like, I can guarantee you that not in your life time, if you are in your twenties, and we take it for granted that you will atleast live up to be 80...and if you are older than that, just forget it...the performance of two women, one lets just not talk about, as she was quickly nominated in a knee jerk fashion in hope to get the votes of those angry women who wanted hilary to be the candidate..hilary, who according to me, and i dont care what other think, aimed for this place the day she forgave her husband for cheating on her...She insisted on not planning to stand for the candidate everytime people asked her, up until the day she decided to make it public...her behaviour since she patched up with her husband screamed otherwise...And so many yrs of private planning, she made a pathetic show of herself..or the american society made her made a pathetic show of herself as a woman..In bangladesh, and even in pakistan, the women who became the rulers just did it, compiting against all sorts of men, including the hardliner islamic mullahs..

    Complain about this comment

  • 118. At 01:08am on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    109. At 00:49am on 18 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:
    GH1618 wrote:
    Here is a link to a brief history of the Illiniwek which I found interesting: The Illiniwek
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    GH, this was a very informative link. It tells us that, among other things, the Indians were not only battling European settlers for land, the different tribes were also battling each other for land. I thought it was interesting how the Illiniwek actually took captives for hostage rather than kill them and only began torturing captives after the Iriquois tribe was torturing them. The diseases from Europe which the Indians were not exposed to before were very brutal indeed.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The essential difference here was that the wars of the Indian tribes (oten smaller units) were not racial. Indians intermarried with captives, adopted children etc. Many indian battles were also largely ritualised with small (though not insignificant numbers) being killed. Genocide was aimply not feasible.

    The whites however were after annhilation. Simply to be an indian was almost tantamount to being a criminal.

    Complain about this comment

  • 119. At 01:10am on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    "In the west women got their rights and equal opportunities some decades ago, in muslim countries, the women got their rights and free will 1500 yrs ago..."

    Oh really? So what went so horribly wrong? :)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    That they started demanding their rights, and started neglecting the rights of the men, in the west women fight for their rights, in muslim countries, men have to do that...otherwise, women can come demand everything, and then say that they are not happy and demand some more as they break the marriage commitment..When they get education, they really believe that they deserve the equal pay as men, unlike western women, who get the education and are content with lesser pay than men..

    Complain about this comment

  • 120. At 01:10am on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    111. At 00:51am on 18 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:
    "But, Americans weren't conscious of what they were doing for the most part. The Nazis were very much so, and I do think that makes a difference... but what we did is still awful."

    Don't pander to them Lucy. As an American Indian I know very well how "awful" many Indians and their tribes were. Don't let them play their anti-American left wing liberal guilt trip on you. You did not do anything to any Indians and no more Indians exist of the type that routinely murdered and mutilated innocent settlers, women and children, for simply passing through or settling too close to their territories.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Yeh they shoud have welcomed them with open arms shouldn't they. After all look at what happened to those who did welcome them.

    Again the indian reference, but no clarity.

    Hmm why is this

    Complain about this comment

  • 121. At 01:12am on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 122. At 01:17am on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    96. colonelartist:

    "So, you are aware of your limits as a woman....in other words, the men have given you a limited rights and opportunities...."Thus far and no more"...

    ****************
    Only in your mind do the limits on women exist. And this is why I love the US. Men do not get to decide or provide rights. They don't get to "give" anything that women cannot provide for themselves.

    Complain about this comment

  • 123. At 01:18am on 18 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    111, Thank you, Allen. I am proud to be an American and I 110% (and then some) love America with all my heart!!!:) As you pointed out, the Native Indian culture is a part of American culture. My whole life I have been a Brave, a Warrior, a Panther, an Illini, etc. As I said, one of my older brothers even learned Native American dancing when he was younger and that they treated us very well, with respect and that we treated them the same. Those particular Native Indian teachers that taught my brother seemed to enjoy that there were some kids and teens who wanted to learn about their culture from them directly. It depends on the person- some may want to teach others and some may not want much to do with the outside world- that is to each, their own personal choice, and in America, we are allowed to make personal choices of who we are.

    Our patriotism is our country's soul. It is essential. What is a country without patriotism or loyalty?

    Complain about this comment

  • 124. At 01:24am on 18 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    117, colonel, you cannot guarantee that, unless you are psychic? And even then, nope, don't believe you. Is that what you think of American women, that we are simply angry women?

    I was very inspired by Hillary and Sarah and I still am. The effects will go on for many years in the hearts of many women...

    In Pakistan, Benazir Bhutto tried to run and she got shot and killed!!! It was truly sad, as she likely would have been the next President and maybe even promoted peace in Pakistan. I am praying for Pakistan right now, with the flooding, I hope that things get better for them. And I hope the nukes are secured, as well.

    Complain about this comment

  • 125. At 01:26am on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    Who are you all kidding, americans are one nation united under G-d..the church has separated from politics, but it has influence on it...Example, Obama had to publically dissociate himself from his priest..if it had been his private matter, he didnt have to go public..which church he decides to go, is not a political matter, but in usa, it is..Every president bends himself backward to show how religously he and his family celebrate christmas, if religon was private and separated from politics, he would not have to show his rememberance of christ's birthday publically..Ever seen any other country's head of state making such a showcase about this private event? if these people talk about G-d, so what...

    Complain about this comment

  • 126. At 01:32am on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    Only in your mind do the limits on women exist. And this is why I love the US. Men do not get to decide or provide rights. They don't get to "give" anything that women cannot provide for themselves.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Its not in the east, the term "trophy wives" comes from, its in the west..

    Complain about this comment

  • 127. At 01:36am on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    My whole life I have been a Brave, a Warrior, a Panther, an Illini, etc. As I said, one of my older brothers even learned Native American dancing when he was younger and that they treated us very well,
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    And once I ate at the mcdonalds and the people in the mcdonald's treated me very well too...Should I start saying this, everytime someone here, accuses me of being anti american?

    Complain about this comment

  • 128. At 01:40am on 18 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:

    Simon21 wrote:

    "Do tell us what an anti-american foreigner is when its at home. I gather it is anyone who disagrees with the wacko views of the extreme right."

    You are not the collective "us." You are you! Referring to yourself as "us" adds no weight to your argument! It only shows desperation and a lack of confidence in what you have to say.

    I believe in a woman's right to abortion. I believe in strongly protecting the environment. I believe in curtailing the size and influence of corporations and banks. I believe in outlawing lobbying. I could go on!

    Now tell me, does that make me part of the "extreme right?"

    Does it?!

    "So you are suggesting that those American natives who were annihlated did not give up their culture."

    No more so than those settler families that were murdered and mutilated by Indians for simply passing through!

    And how could they be American back then any more so than the people that actually created America, the name and the country?!

    You also need to look up the meaning of the word native because you either do not know it or you are purposely trying to offend other native Americans of different races.

    "Practically every other indigenous people in the world would disagree."

    What, that many innocent settlers were mudered, massarced and mutilated beyond recognition? They were not?

    Right.


    And who are you? I am actually one of those natives you are speaking about! Now you are speaking for me?! LOL.


    "So those cultures whihc were wiped out are still what - around?"

    Some are and some are not. That was also the case long before the white man showed up, and yet I don't see you demanding accountabilty amongst the many Indians tribes. Why is that?

    "Yeh and many place names in Oz come from Koori languages. But here's a tip don't suggest to a koori that this means their culture has been assimilated into mainstream Australia."

    America is not Australia! American Indians are not Aboriginals from Australia. Australia has its story and culture and America has its own!

    "They will laugh you (at best) out of the room. Not Tasmanian Koories, they don't exist any more."

    They wouldn't have the opportunity to "laugh" at me because I wouldn't be interferring in their affairs and culture, unlike the many non-Americans here do when it comes to America.

    "Claiming a place name means the survival of a culture is ludicrous."

    Your interpretation of my comment, which was just one example, is "ludicrous" if you somehow felt I intended that to be the sole basis for the survival of any culture. It is an emotional response on your part that defies the logic and reason of my *actual* remark.

    "You presumably beleive that Catholic Mexico is in fact a blend of Aztec culture since the country is called Mexico (a nuahtl word)?"

    Well, considering that the Aztecs were some of the most brutal and vicious Indians you could come across and engaged in the practices of canibalism and human sacrifices, what do you think?

    "A sensible person might posit that culural survival has more to do with language, values, religion etc than a place name."

    Hence, my remark when I said *for example* in refernce to state names.

    You need to read more carefully.

    "And if a culture is founded on the land, as many are, then removing the inhabitants destroys the centre on which their culture is based."

    So you just harped on about the many different things that can contribute to the survival of a culture but now all of a sudden you are fixated on a particular piece of land?

    Here, I'll quote what you just said: "A sensible person might posit that culural survival has more to do with language, values, religion etc than a place name."

    And if you care so much about a piece of land where is your concern for the many pieces of land that violently exchanged hands between the many Indian tribes long before the white man showed up?

    Will you answer that question? :)

    Complain about this comment

  • 129. At 01:43am on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    117, colonel, you cannot guarantee that, unless you are psychic? And even then, nope, don't believe you. Is that what you think of American women, that we are simply angry women?

    I was very inspired by Hillary and Sarah and I still am. The effects will go on for many years in the hearts of many women...

    In Pakistan, Benazir Bhutto tried to run and she got shot and killed!!! It was truly sad, as she likely would have been the next President and maybe even promoted peace in Pakistan. I am praying for Pakistan right now, with the flooding, I hope that things get better for them. And I hope the nukes are secured, as well.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Yes. american women are angry women...You said it I had been trying to be very subtle about it...She was elected twice before she was killed...sad or not, it was her choice..the nukes are not floating in the water...I can assure you that, its the people who are doing the floating...Next time, if something happens, where thousands of people die, pray for the dead ones, instead of getting hyper in sending aid...No one needs more praying then the dead, the people who survive disasters like floofs, usually need water and food, they have plenty of time to pray for themselves...which they do..

    Complain about this comment

  • 130. At 01:44am on 18 Aug 2010, Agent 00Soul wrote:

    @123 "Our patriotism is our country's soul. It is essential. What is a country without patriotism or loyalty?"

    What does that mean? Who decides this? So it's essential for a British person to be pro UK, Canadian to be pro Canadian etc? But no matter what, I still don't understand how it helps anyone, especially in a country is such dire straights as the USA? I want America to help itself out, but I despair when I read stuff like this and no one explains it to me.

    Complain about this comment

  • 131. At 01:51am on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    And who are you? I am actually one of those natives you are speaking about! Now you are speaking for me?! LOL.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Internalised the white man's narrative, have you? the forced white man's education on red indians has produced good results after all...Correction..Simon is not speaking for you, he is speaking for your ancestors, many of whom were killed, just for being the red indians..unecessary killed..millions of human lives gone wasted..Perhapd if the red indians had not easily internalised the white man's narrative, that since tribes were killing each other, so what if we killed most of them, the americans would think twice before they proudly and generously dish out, the "muslims killing muslims" justification of their own killings of muslims..

    Complain about this comment

  • 132. At 01:59am on 18 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:

    mabelwhite wrote:

    "Islam and Christianity already clearly fail to qualify for the finals due to the Spanish Inquisition, 9/11, and various abusive yet priestly activities"

    You are comparing the Spanish Inquisition, something from the 15th Century, to 9/11, and to other things *currently* commited in the name of Islam?

    As bad as priests are for molesting children how does that compare to groups of people that if they could they, in the name of Islam, would detonate a nuclear device in a Western city that you live in? People that murder women and homosexuals for simply being who they are.

    Complain about this comment

  • 133. At 02:01am on 18 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 134. At 02:04am on 18 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    Agent00Soul, there is a very good quote to explain the patriotism in America, I believe from Mark Twain, perhaps...

    "Support your country all the time, but support your government only when it deserves it."

    It means that even if you disagree with your govt., you should love and support your country through the good times and the bad times.
    It is called sticking together. It is called safety in numbers.

    I did not agree with everything Bush did and I don't agree with everything Obama is doing.

    But through it all, I continue to love my country just the same- with all my heart.

    If we do not have patriotism and loyalty in our country, we are not united. We have been warned, "United we stand, Divided we fall."

    I cannot tell you what a British or Canadian person should feel toward their govt., because I am not British or Canadian...but as an American, I can tell you that patriotism and loyalty is everything...

    Complain about this comment

  • 135. At 02:04am on 18 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 136. At 02:04am on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    colonel, you cannot guarantee that, unless you are psychic?
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    just 24 hours passed, and you have already forgotten....I am not a psycchic, I have exalted mental abilities..

    Complain about this comment

  • 137. At 02:12am on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    Those who are patriotic and comfortable with their patriotism, have no need to pin a flag badge on their left shoulder, they dont have to have flags outside their homes, they dont have to celebrate the national day...those who doubt their patriotism have to make a visual show of it..its not as if lucyj is regularly questioned to prove her patriotism, she after every other posts, gives this information volunatrily....which makes her look suspicious...why the need to show her patriotism, that is the question.

    Complain about this comment

  • 138. At 02:17am on 18 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:

    colonelartist wrote:

    "Internalised the white man's narrative, have you?"

    No, I used common sense, historical facts and logic to arrive at where I am at.

    "the forced white man's education on red indians has produced good results after all...Correction..Simon is not speaking for you, he is speaking for your ancestors, many of whom were killed, just for being the red indians..unecessary killed..millions of human lives gone wasted.."

    Simon, why are you ignoring that question I posed to you at the end of post #128? :)

    That's also quite some claim you got going there that "millions" of Indians were "killed."

    "Perhapd if the red indians had not easily internalised the white man's narrative, that since tribes were killing each other, so what if we killed most of them, the americans would think twice before they proudly and generously dish out, the "muslims killing muslims" justification of their own killings of muslims.."

    LOL. Isn't it your type that says the ones that were are targeting are not really true practioners of Islam? If so then how could they be Muslims? :)



    Complain about this comment

  • 139. At 02:19am on 18 Aug 2010, d_m wrote:

    ref #136

    colonelartist

    What nationality are you? I wonder if the moderators will permit that question? If they do, I wonder if you will answer it?

    Complain about this comment

  • 140. At 02:19am on 18 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:

    Colonel I accidently referred to you as Simon in post #138 but the remark still applies to you too.

    Simply answer the question at the end of post #128. :)

    Complain about this comment

  • 141. At 02:20am on 18 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    colonelartist wrote:
    the "muslims killing muslims" justification of their own killings of muslims..
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    There are radical Muslim terrorists who attack, harm and murder other Muslims if they are not radical or terroristic enough. It is similar to the Bloods and Crips, Mexican cartels, etc.- intimidation, domination and submission- all three.


    Complain about this comment

  • 142. At 02:22am on 18 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:

    Lucy, as I said, YOU are a native American. No less than any other!

    Complain about this comment

  • 143. At 02:28am on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    "Internalised the white man's narrative, have you?"

    No, I used common sense, historical facts and logic to arrive at where I am at.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Yes. their logic, their historical facts and their common sense. they killed those tribesmen, because of land and gold, then they sent their children to be cut off from their roots, then they renamed them into native americans, gave them reservations, with alcohol and casinos telling everyone that native americans genetically are more alcoholics and fond of gambling...

    Complain about this comment

  • 144. At 02:30am on 18 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:

    "Yeh they shoud have welcomed them with open arms shouldn't they. After all look at what happened to those who did welcome them.

    Again the indian reference, but no clarity. Hmm why is this"



    What is the "clarity" you seek?

    Since you obviously have no problems with the many innocent women and children settlers that were brutally murdered and mutilated by many different Indian tribes what makes you think I can bring you "clarity" on anything?

    Complain about this comment

  • 145. At 02:31am on 18 Aug 2010, Agent 00Soul wrote:

    134Lucy Thanks for your frank and well thought out answer. It's nice to know some people take discussion seriously, even if I personally might not agree with everything you wrote as it seems to me people can have other loyalties besides a nation state. But you made your point of view eloquently and I appreciate it.

    135Alan That is no answer; unless you are a troll in which case you get a gold medal. Seriously, how can you not describe something that's obviously important to you? I'm not kidding; I want to understand, asked politely and you just completely insulted me with borderline master race condescension:
    "If you are not American then it doesn't need to be explained to you. If you are American and still do not understand then I truly feel sorry for you."

    Complain about this comment

  • 146. At 02:35am on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    And if you care so much about a piece of land where is your concern for the many pieces of land that violently exchanged hands between the many Indian tribes long before the white man showed up?
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    It was their land. it is no justification for the white man to come and create havoc and genocide just because the local population among different tribes, not all, but some, were hostile to each other..its just as simple as that. If you and your brother were fighting for some property phycially or through court, a third person from another part of the world, looking for property, cannot come and kill you both, or start fighting you both in court and after winning property, cannot justify his victory by saying, that those two brothers were fighting with each other, so what if i fought both of them.

    Complain about this comment

  • 147. At 02:36am on 18 Aug 2010, d_m wrote:

    ref 143

    colonelartist

    You're too funny.

    Complain about this comment

  • 148. At 02:48am on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    As if right on cue, the Saudi comedy show, "Tash Ma Tas", aired a show where the woman took 4 husbands in a clever role reversal.

    Of course, it was criticized, but, why wouldn't it be? Who wants to be one of four spouses?

    The women must have had a special enjoyment in watching the men treated this way for a change.

    Complain about this comment

  • 149. At 03:05am on 18 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:

    Simon21 wrote:

    "Oh it is population density, I see. So by that inane reasoning the present inhabitants of the US do not own much of the SW, vast swathes of New England and nearly all of he Dakotas"

    You tell me how a tiny population of Indians, in comparison to America's 300 million of today, mapped out and reasonably staked a claim for all the territory that was to become America when also considering the lack of technology, distances involved and other obstacles of the time.

    You are not very good at seeing the big picture, or the obvious, are you?

    "I don't know or care if you are an American Indian, I do know you need to read more."

    Actually you do care as your upcoming comments below will show. :)

    "I thought you just said you were an Indian, what nation I wonder, the Tea Party clan, the Palin people? Not tellin porkies are we?Yes european annhilation of the native Americans involved the white man."

    How is that a response to what I wrote??

    Here I'll post my comment again: And if you are so concerned about Indians back then that lost lands to the white man where is your concern for all the wars and land grabs that took place between the many different Indian tribes? Or is this simply an issue against the white man, or what you perceive to be the typical non-Indian American? Yeah, that's exactly what it is, isn't it!"

    Answer the question instead of posting something that makes no sense in response to what I wrote.

    And you see what I meant about you supposedly not caring whether I am Indian or not? That's one.

    "Missed that did you my supposed indian friend?"

    That's two. I thought you didn't care if was Indian or not? LOL.

    "But they didn't did they."

    And so the skies parted and they all became noble, wise and peaceful. :)

    "The white man invaded their territories and butchered/cleared them."

    Actually, the "butchering" was technically done by many different Indian tribes that killed their enemies, including women and children, in the most horrific ways involving multilation and dismemberment.

    "Point proven - that was easy"

    The only "point" you have proven is that you are anti-American and hostile to Americans of a particular race, besides not willing to answer a simple and important question. That's all.

    Here, I'll ask it once again. If you are so concerned about Indians back then that lost lands to the white man where is your concern for all the wars and land grabs that took place between the many different Indian tribes long before the white man showed up?

    Complain about this comment

  • 150. At 03:11am on 18 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:

    colonelartist wrote:

    "Those who are patriotic and comfortable with their patriotism, have no need to pin a flag badge on their left shoulder, they dont have to have flags outside their homes, they dont have to celebrate the national day..."

    What makes you think we "need" to?

    We simply do because we enjoy doing so.

    It's also especially fun when it annoys people like you who try and tell us how we should demonstrate our patriotism, or not, when in fact you don't even know what the word means.

    Complain about this comment

  • 151. At 03:37am on 18 Aug 2010, KScurmudgeon wrote:

    Archlight # 43 -

    Right to the core. Someone understands it. I wonder if anyone will know that someone understood.

    KScurmudgeon

    Complain about this comment

  • 152. At 03:38am on 18 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:

    AllenT2 wrote: And if you care so much about a piece of land where is your concern for the many pieces of land that violently exchanged hands between the many Indian tribes long before the white man showed up?

    Colonelartist wrote in response: "It was their land. it is no justification for the white man to come and create havoc and genocide just because the local population among different tribes, not all, but some, were hostile to each other..its just as simple as that."

    Oh, so now it's "genocide?"

    Many different Indian tribes surely had issues with disputes and conflicts related to land and yet you can not see beyond the white man's conflicts but somehow you can when it comes to theirs. Why is that?

    "If you and your brother were fighting for some property phycially or through court, a third person from another part of the world, looking for property, cannot come and kill you both, or start fighting you both in court and after winning property, cannot justify his victory by saying, that those two brothers were fighting with each other, so what if i fought both of them."

    LOL. So even though in most cases they were culturally different to each other and they slaughtered and butchered each other in the end they were simply brothers, that is except for the white man?

    Careful that you don't let your anti-Americanism, sorry, your non-American Indian anti-Americanism, make you out to be a racist. ;)

    Complain about this comment

  • 153. At 03:54am on 18 Aug 2010, mabelwhite wrote:

    112 - Bhutan - Wiki actually has a not bad summary - I am not sure you are going to find massacre levels - I can't find a single death ... nothing disqualifying as yet, although the refs are on the alert as there does appears to have been oppression on the field. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Bhutan

    132 - Well! The Spanish Inquisition is colorful, but if you want something more recent on US soils...lets see...was the KKK Christian? -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ku_Klux_Klan_crimes

    we'll have to have a phone-in vote on that.

    Are Mormans christian? - Phone-in. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre

    Hm..anti-abortion violence count? - phone in. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anti-abortion_violence_in_the_United_States

    Did Hitler use Christianity in connection with the Holocaust? Is that recent enough to qualify? Vote now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_views

    Does the missionaries' treatment of the indigenous American people (Native Americans) count because it's on topic? vote

    Complain about this comment

  • 154. At 04:06am on 18 Aug 2010, Agent 00Soul wrote:

    150 "It's also especially fun when it annoys people like you who try and tell us how we should demonstrate our patriotism, or not, when in fact you don't even know what the word means."

    I did ask something similar and all you did was give an insulting answer. Now you're being condescending to someone else for the opposite reason. Any reason why you don't want to explain your definition/opinion on patriotism?

    Complain about this comment

  • 155. At 04:11am on 18 Aug 2010, mabelwhite wrote:

    Hey, I just had this thought...what if...Josef Farah's concern about "Native American" issues (which seems unusual) is somehow connected....gasp....wait for it....to OIL AND MONEY "$400 million of which was generated from mineral leases on tribal lands"..."Large deposits of uranium, necessary for nuclear power generation lie within tribal lands, and many tribal lands are also premium locations for large-scale solar panel systems..."

    Native American Mineral Rights | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_6401930_native-american-mineral-rights.html#ixzz0wvGgOZfb

    Oh the poor tea party man - the health industry lobbiests set them up, got 'em an Express Bus, hired Palin, went on tour, bill passed (with some very favorable edits), cut-off funding - now this lil' tea party PR infrastructure is sitting there, in place - heck it's possible Farah opted in to plug the Native American issue for nothing but a comp'd hotel room, some country club flattery and a chat at the bar.

    Worse though, and "immoral", would be the thought that American human beings, after placing the rez on some of the harshest land in the US (after carving out profitable railroad land), would then try to RIP THEM OFF AGAIN
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5DcxFlyftI&feature=related

    Complain about this comment

  • 156. At 04:20am on 18 Aug 2010, middleofnowhere wrote:

    AllenT2
    With all due respect to your political opinions, saying that I am not NDN because I have stated things I learned from listening in my JOM class, talking to elders, staying abreast of projects regarding the Native tribal presence in North America, and having pride in my tribal culture, is downright rude.
    To suggest that I promote racism because I recognize truths about the reality of Native tribes in both their history and current situations is beyond inflammatory.
    Finally, your posts regarding this topic pretty much proves the point that the Tea Party gathers people through fear. I, for one, am not afraid.
    I highly recommend taking a sweat soon, darlin.

    Complain about this comment

  • 157. At 04:54am on 18 Aug 2010, mabelwhite wrote:

    This tea party central euphemism is annoying as well, "fiscal conservatism"...well, that means a budget should be balanced. That is a simple and well known, universally accepted and mathematical fact that none disagree with. Not really a 'party line'...the line, or rather the swamp, is drawn at "how"

    Complain about this comment

  • 158. At 06:19am on 18 Aug 2010, KScurmudgeon wrote:

    153. At 03:54am on 18 Aug 2010, mabelwhite wrote:

    Hm..anti-abortion violence count? - phone in. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anti-abortion_violence_in_the_United_States
    __________________________________

    You're not getting away with that, Mabel - I can play too.

    Over 30 million Americans have died in the past 30 years from abortions. Wiki it.

    KScurmudgeon

    Complain about this comment

  • 159. At 09:07am on 18 Aug 2010, steelpulse wrote:

    The Tea Party? Nah. I have said enough.
    The middle of the road – the place in American politics where one gets run over? Thank you, Mark Mardell. Your piece on today's Today Radio Four.
    I think I am Middle Of The Road. Run over! But what is your point? You are talking mostly to Great Britain and the British. Not Americans. Compromise it may be called I suppose. Drifting. Hmm.
    Mush. The word "mush" should have be created to described accurately how the formerly ardent in politics over there – allegedly go to either the left or right of their former positions. I understand.
    “I wonder what he/she thinks tomorrow?” I picked that quote up about one so called TV/Radio commentator on stuff over there in the USA. A commentator - whose views allegedly change on a Daily basis. The direction of the wind and focus groups blows the utterances of mouthpiece hither and thither. It is embarrassing watching. To me at least. Mush! Porridge or gruel – with – forgive me anyone out there – a lot of pork pieces in it. Terrible in any sensible dietary sense.
    I called it "No Quarter" once. My stand on stuff, Mark. I do not need to compromise. I need to sometimes stay STOCK still.
    I am struggling with my computer at the moment. Hence the stillness - as galxies form and get destroyed in the time it takes to load the WWW.
    Middle of the Road - run over - allegedly Under the Obama administration – and all previous Administrations perhaps? Your piece heard whilst my battle with so called state of the art PC technology is undertaken and I laughed – at your piece. Politicians would call it compromise I think.
    So back to the struggle. Oh in the time it took to load I bathed and cleaned my teeth – the better to smile at today’s travails, Mark
    Subject: under the Obama administration
    Anagram: Both main USA demand ration - tire
    If I had the strength - I would yawn. lol

    Complain about this comment

  • 160. At 09:20am on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    148. At 02:48am on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    As if right on cue, the Saudi comedy show, "Tash Ma Tas", aired a show where the woman took 4 husbands in a clever role reversal.

    Of course, it was criticized, but, why wouldn't it be? Who wants to be one of four spouses?

    The women must have had a special enjoyment in watching the men treated this way for a change."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I believe in parts of Utah etc some men do not stop at four women.

    Complain about this comment

  • 161. At 09:21am on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    144. At 02:30am on 18 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:
    "Yeh they shoud have welcomed them with open arms shouldn't they. After all look at what happened to those who did welcome them.

    Again the indian reference, but no clarity. Hmm why is this"



    What is the "clarity" you seek?

    Since you obviously have no problems with the many innocent women and children settlers that were brutally murdered and mutilated by many different Indian tribes what makes you think I can bring you "clarity" on anything?
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Clarity about yourself dear one you constantly claim to be an indian.

    And if the settlers had not come, there would have been no conflict with them eh?

    Complain about this comment

  • 162. At 09:36am on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    149. At 03:05am on 18 Aug 2010, AllenT2 wrote:
    Simon21 wrote:

    "Oh it is population density, I see. So by that inane reasoning the present inhabitants of the US do not own much of the SW, vast swathes of New England and nearly all of he Dakotas"

    You tell me how a tiny population of Indians, in comparison to America's 300 million of today, mapped out and reasonably staked a claim for all the territory that was to become America when also considering the lack of technology, distances involved and other obstacles of the time."

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Sorry this is reasoning?

    Wow I would really love to know what indian grou;p you belong to. Is it the stupid tribe?

    My point stands and I will organising the Chinese take over of these areas soon.

    Presumably the US will have no objection?
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You are not very good at seeing the big picture, or the obvious, are you?"
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You are not great at common sense.


    But I love your reasoning. Don't tell it to the Australians though, they think they own their country, even the unlived in bits.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "I don't know or care if you are an American Indian, I do know you need to read more."

    Actually you do care as your upcoming comments below will show. :)

    "I thought you just said you were an Indian, what nation I wonder, the Tea Party clan, the Palin people? Not tellin porkies are we?Yes european annhilation of the native Americans involved the white man."

    How is that a response to what I wrote??"
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Difficult to respond to stultifying idiocy. And I notice you do not answer the question

    Point proven?
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Here I'll post my comment again: And if you are so concerned about Indians back then that lost lands to the white man where is your concern for all the wars and land grabs that took place between the many different Indian tribes? Or is this simply an issue against the white man, or what you perceive to be the typical non-Indian American? Yeah, that's exactly what it is, isn't it!"
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I suspect you are as much a native American as Fred Flinstone - found you out on that one.

    But I will answer your question. One conflict was about genocide fueled by racial degradation, the others were not.

    it is also a rascist lie to imply all the native Americans were bloodthirsty savages.

    You would know that though if you were one.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Answer the question instead of posting something that makes no sense in response to what I wrote.

    And you see what I meant about you supposedly not caring whether I am Indian or not? That's one."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Sense is something i think you might have trouble with.

    You constantly make the claim to be an indian as if that gives you a special right to make inane extreme comments - I ask you for clarification and you run away.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "Missed that did you my supposed indian friend?"

    That's two. I thought you didn't care if was Indian or not? LOL."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    See above
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    "But they didn't did they."

    And so the skies parted and they all became noble, wise and peaceful. :)

    "The white man invaded their territories and butchered/cleared them."

    Actually, the "butchering" was technically done by many different Indian tribes that killed their enemies, including women and children, in the most horrific ways involving multilation and dismemberment. "
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I see so Washita Creek, Sand Creek, Wounded Knee etc ewtc et all did not happen?

    And again were the American tribes invading New York?

    You have yet to answer that question.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    "Point proven - that was easy"

    The only "point" you have proven is that you are anti-American and hostile to Americans of a particular race, besides not willing to answer a simple and important question. That's all. "
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Proven fairly clearly you are not a native American, and I suspect I know who you are

    Your knowledge of Indian culture life and history is derived from the Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck etc view of US history."
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------



    Here, I'll ask it once again. If you are so concerned about Indians back then that lost lands to the white man where is your concern for all the wars and land grabs that took place between the many different Indian tribes long before the white man showed up?"
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I have answered your question three times. Two words, rascist genocide

    Try to answer mine.


    Complain about this comment

  • 163. At 11:12am on 18 Aug 2010, arclightt wrote:

    @38 (StD): "Our national debt is, indeed, a major concern and an issue that should not be ignored, but trying to portray it as a new problem brought about by the Obama administration is simply wrong."

    That's true for two reasons: 1. It has grown over time, as you pointed out. 2. While acknowledging the role of the President in setting the budget, it is ultimately the Congress that decides. The Democrats declaring Reagan's budgets "dead on arrival" for several years in the 1980s illustrates this (presuming, of course, that we take what a Congressman says seriously).


    "...since President Obama was inagurated it has risen to over $13 trillion."

    Dominick, as you know, this figure does not include unfunded obligations to Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid. Add those in (as GAO and others have done) and the total rises to close to $60 trillion.

    Complain about this comment

  • 164. At 12:05pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    163. arclightt:

    A lot of Tea Party members are just as happy to pin the deficit figure on Bush. They believe he cut taxes but did nothing to control spending. They'd be the first to tell you that cutting taxes without cutting spending is the wrong way to go.

    So, they are in agreement with many until you get to the part where they want to cut spending and not raise taxes.

    Complain about this comment

  • 165. At 12:29pm on 18 Aug 2010, arclightt wrote:

    @130 (A0S) (on patriotism): "But no matter what, I still don't understand how it helps anyone, especially in a country is such dire straights as the USA? I want America to help itself out, but I despair when I read stuff like this and no one explains it to me."

    A Google definition of patriotism is "love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it". Real patriotism has always been defined in terms of sacrifice, because real love is ultimately defined that way.

    Thomas Paine wrote this about patriots: "These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman."

    As you pointed out, America has significant challenges in front of it. Solving any of these is going to require significant sacrifice, as Thomas Paine alluded to in the quote above, and as I tried to write about in #43.

    The sacrifice is not one that can be delivered in a day, a week, or a year. For me and those my age and older, the sacrifices will most likely last from the day they start (and they MUST start very soon) to the day we die and move into eternity. For the very young, they might see things back in balance by the time they are old.

    The true patriots will sacrifice. The pretenders will find excuses. It's pretty much that simple.

    May God grant us the grace to sacrificially "render unto Caesar those things that are Caesar's", while making sure that we first and foremost "render unto God those things that are God's" (Matthew 22:21). May He also grant us the wisdom this election season to begin choosing leaders we will be willing to trust, rather than using this season to continue the stupid political games that we have played for too long. May He above all give us the hunger to seek His face, and the willingness to draw close to Him and to really know Him.

    Arclight

    Complain about this comment

  • 166. At 12:30pm on 18 Aug 2010, mabelwhite wrote:

    158 Then we shall disqualify them both. Bhuddism remains in the lead with a comfortable margin and are the favorites to win.

    Complain about this comment

  • 167. At 00:30am on 19 Aug 2010, DCHeretic wrote:

    The Religious Right has been biting at the bit to hijack the Tea Party movement. They are losing influence daily in America and desparate for new sources of power. As Mark notes, however, the Tea Party movement is noteworthy precisely because it has brought together a broad swath of American conservatives who can comfortably put aside differences over social issues in favor of unity on fiscal matters.

    I share many of the concerns of the Tea Partiers, although I have not fully subscribed to their movement. Should the movement become the mouthpiece of Christian fundamentalists, however, I will quickly lose respect for the Tea Party. The Religious Right has destroyed the Republican Party by running the intellectuals out and replacing them with people who have little capability to tackle the world's complex problems. GWB was a darling of the Religious Right and his administration is directly responsible for much of the fiscal chaos facing America and an ongoing debacle in Iraq.

    Complain about this comment

  • 168. At 12:18pm on 19 Aug 2010, Three Million Posse On Employed In A Dub wrote:

    My kind of Tea party
    is a reggae party
    collie weed party
    ( Koutchie Dub )
    Bring the Chalawah Come
    We nah go run
    The Reggae Crusaders - Bring The Couchie Come

    Complain about this comment

  • 169. At 3:39pm on 19 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    If liberals can be invited to the anti "megamosquito" platform, why cannot G-d be invited to tea party movement...The liberals first have to clarify their free will to join hands with many of these tea party members who do not want community center to be built in ny, and then critisize the tea party members to bring in G-d..Its ironic and pathetic, that people who post anti tea party posts, have no issues posting anti community center posts...they join hands with the pro thread posters here in the anti mosque thread.. Ergo,When it comes to harassing muslims, the americans are all the same.The goal is the same, the justifications, different...

    Complain about this comment

  • 170. At 4:57pm on 19 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    Ergo,When it comes to harassing muslims, the americans are all the same.The goal is the same, the justifications, different...
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    When it comes to harassing Westerners, the Muslim radical terrorists are all the same. The goal is the same, the justifications, different...

    Complain about this comment

  • 171. At 8:48pm on 19 Aug 2010, qmrfc67 wrote:

    The problem with patriotism in America today is it's co-option and misuse by much of the right wing. It is right and fitting to love ones country and be proud of it's accomplishments. It is entirely wrong to suggest that to criticise some aspect of a government policy or social movement is "anti-American" or "unpatriotic". If you truly love your country you want it to be the best it can be and if you don't think its living up to that standard you have a duty as a citizen to speak out about it.
    I raised 3 kids and love them more than anything on earth but during that process I criticised and punished them all on many occasions. It's part of being a good parent.
    So don't tell me I'm not a "real" American if I don't think we have the best health care in the world or we shouldn't be wasting the blood of a lot of very fine young people in ill conceived foreign adventures, not to mention mortgaging our grandchildren to the Chinese. If I wasn't a patriot and didn't love my country frankly,, Scarlet I wouldn't give a damn!

    Complain about this comment

  • 172. At 11:44pm on 19 Aug 2010, McJakome wrote:

    155. At 04:11am on 18 Aug 2010, mabelwhite wrote: "Worse though, and "immoral", would be the thought that American human beings, after placing the rez on some of the harshest land in the US (after carving out profitable railroad land), would then try to RIP THEM OFF AGAIN"

    The ripping off of the native Americans has never stopped. I remember in the late '60 the State of New York tried to expropriate most of the remaining Onondaga reservation to build a "much needed highway expansion." Fortunately the Onondaga prevailed in court. Taking ANY of what little we left them is beyond despicable.

    Complain about this comment

  • 173. At 11:51pm on 19 Aug 2010, McJakome wrote:

    166. At 12:30pm on 18 Aug 2010, mabelwhite wrote:
    "158 Then we shall disqualify them both. Bhuddism remains in the lead with a comfortable margin and are the favorites to win."

    Unfortunately, the Sinhalese Buddhists of Sri Lanka have conducted an ethnocentric war. Also Buddhist monks in Korea and Sri Lanka occasionally riot and try to occupy the temples of other Buddhist sects.

    (Sigh!) Human nature appears, in the end, to trump religious principles.

    Complain about this comment

  • 174. At 10:05am on 20 Aug 2010, Three Million Posse On Employed In A Dub wrote:

    I think the Abomniable Tea Party should invite their Lord and Master Satan the Devil to their parties.

    When you see a Devil smash him..
    Find me a Devil
    Devils are sneaky
    Come in all shapes and fashions
    Someone I can't stand with a passion
    They tell you that heaven is in the sky
    I spot them by their ways and actions
    666 smash them and beat them to particles

    Complain about this comment

  • 175. At 00:57am on 21 Aug 2010, McJakome wrote:

    Given the paranoid conspiracy theories on the GOP/FOX/Tea Party side, I have been wondering about the missing conspiracy theory. Now I believe I know exactly why it is missing.

    The theory that the US resulted from a Masonic plot is well known, and not without evidence, as most of the founding fathers were Masons [George Washington and Ben Franklin being Master Masons]. For years the conspiracists have tried folding their money and other strategems to find evidence that the conspiracy continues.

    Why are they now as silent as the grave? I think you will find my analysis persuasive. It connects quite well to the Texas school board dumping the greatest of the founding fathers, Thomas Jefferson.

    First, the Masons believe that members should believe in some kind of supreme being and that they must be guided by moral principles. However, Masons began as an organized resistance to organized religions, and are responsible for the separation of church and state sponsored by the founding fathers. They promote respect for all creeds and prohibit proselytizing among members. Thus they are too secular humanist and anti theocracy for the religious right's [and Bill O'Reilly's] taste.

    So why the silence? They are silent because opposing most of the founding fathers and the Constitution would be a losing proposition, so they ignore it and hope nobody catches them at it.

    As for Jefferson [whose membership in the Masons can be neither confirmed nor disproven] his religious views are literally anathema to the religious right. They probably looked at the Jefferson Bible [Jefferson eliminated a lot of the superstition and irrationality] and recoiled in horror.

    They did not try to eliminate him entirely because they pretend to be patriots who support the [Jefferson] Constitution, but couldn't bear his Leftist, Secular Humanist views, thus they decided to downgrade him.

    DISCLAIMER: I am not a Mason [though one cousin may be], nor do I intend to become one, nor am I espousing the organization.

    Complain about this comment

  • 176. At 1:43pm on 21 Aug 2010, Tony of Britain wrote:

    what nonsense.

    Complain about this comment

  • 177. At 1:31pm on 22 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    171. qmrfc67:

    "The problem with patriotism in America today is it's co-option and misuse by much of the right wing. "

    ********************

    It never fails to surprise me how so many people can state without any compunction that everything wrong is because of those other guys. There are people on both sides of this divide, and it takes work to keep the divide there.

    Do you not see that everyone is at fault here?

    Complain about this comment

  • 178. At 2:50pm on 22 Aug 2010, qmrfc67 wrote:

    No AndreaNY I don't.
    I do see the divide and I see many arguments, some good some bad.

    I see left wingers calling right wingers all kinds of things from nut jobs to racists.

    But I was referring specifically to the the concept of patriotism and I'm sorry but questioning someone's patriotism and saying they are not real Americans if they disagree is pretty much exclusive to the right wing going back to Joe McCarthy and probably reaching its zenith with the "birthers" and "Obama is a muslim" crowd.

    Complain about this comment

  • 179. At 3:24pm on 22 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    178. qmrfc67:

    "But I was referring specifically to the the concept of patriotism and I'm sorry but questioning someone's patriotism and saying they are not real Americans if they disagree is pretty much exclusive to the right wing going back to Joe McCarthy and probably reaching its zenith with the "birthers" and "Obama is a muslim" crowd."

    *********************
    Sorry, cannot agree. There are just as many people who claim that any opposition to their positions is a denial of rights and/or a violation of the Constitution, as in the case of the center at Ground Zero, where protesters are accused of being against religious freedom.

    In other words, their version of "patriotism" is claiming to protect rights when it suits their position. Those same "protectors" of rights would actively campaign against rights when it also suits their needs.

    Complain about this comment

  • 180. At 4:51pm on 22 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    It all comes down to freedom of speech.

    Americans have the right to say pretty much whatever we want.

    It doesn't matter if someone tells you you are wrong or right, if they tell you you are smart or ignorant, if they tell you they agree with you or not, because it is every person's right to have freedom of speech and to make their own choices in life.

    If we did not have this right, we would be told what we could or could not say and life would be very boring, indeed, if we all looked, dressed and acted the same. Life would be boring if we only had one political party, as well as one-sided and without choices...

    I think it is normal to have disagreements and debate, but the key is keeping things civil and not letting them get out of hand, getting too overemotional or crazed...certain issues bring more intensity than others and it is well-known what these issues are and that people likely will have intense feelings and emotion over certain ones...

    Complain about this comment

  • 181. At 5:24pm on 22 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    Life is for living...

    or as Matthew McConnaghey put it in Dazed and Confused, "L-i-v-i-n'"

    Love that movie!!! :)

    Complain about this comment

  • 182. At 9:12pm on 22 Aug 2010, qmrfc67 wrote:

    LucyJ you are absolutely right. Civil discourse is the life blood of democracy.
    You can call me anything you like and personally I could care less.
    I question the civility of calling my friend who was wounded twice and decorated for valour in combat for his country "unpatriotic" because he is also quite liberal.
    You can question his intellect or his analysis and call him wrong or woolly headed and tell him you think his policies are bad for the country and neither he nor I would be offended.
    And yes you have the right to call him unpatriotic but it's still despicable.

    Complain about this comment

  • 183. At 4:05pm on 26 Aug 2010, RHCracker wrote:

    in post 90 simon 21 wrote

    You are aware that the congressman claimed it did take place, and most right wingers have simply dismissed him.

    We have one poster here who claims "there is no evidence" despite the fact there obviously is.

    It is hard to avoid the view that because of the COngressman's colour his testimony has automatically been discounted.

    AS for the "reward" if you are going to dismiss the key witness and the culprits are going to deny it what proof can there be?

    What is the obvious evidence you speak of,
    Are you taking the word of the congressman because of his color?
    After all a lot of tea-party members are white so they have to be racist.
    Cameras were everywhere that day , not one recording or clip ever surfaced of the alleged incident,Yet you are sure it is true.

    Complain about this comment

  • 184. At 11:31pm on 26 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    q, if he's so liberal, what is doing in the military?

    Complain about this comment

  • 185. At 5:42pm on 27 Aug 2010, RHCracker wrote:

    MR. Mardell;
    In your article you asked;
    what taking America back" (from the voters?) might mean.

    With the heavy influence of lobbyists in Washington,szars with absolute power ,and the deaf ears of those elected to serve the citizens of this country,America is not in the hands of the voters and that is why the Tea-Party was formed.
    It is now in my opinion defunct,and the movement successfully quelled by unscrupulous politicians from both sides of the isle and the leftist media ,in my opinion if the government continues to operate outside the wishes of the people,there will be a major uprising in this country that will bring the government back to the hands of the American citizens,not necessarily by force, but more likely in the form of an across the nation worker strike and a shutdown of services,to better get the attention of those in office,after all they get all their money and power from the workers of this nation.

    Complain about this comment

  • 186. At 6:53pm on 28 Aug 2010, Restecp wrote:

    The Tea Party Movement seems to be mainly made up of people who are sick of metro-trendies and liberal elitists running the show and telling them how to live their lives. Some of the Tea Party Movement's views may be doctrinally unsound, but I am glad to have somebody resisting the multicultural elite.

    Complain about this comment

  • 187. At 8:18pm on 28 Aug 2010, Cart00n0 wrote:

    Tea Baggers are bpught and paid for by the Koch brothers and most of them don't even know it. There is no god only ancient-minded right wingers who'd like to have the 1950's (or the dark ages) back.

    Complain about this comment

  • 188. At 8:18pm on 28 Aug 2010, Michael wrote:

    The last time a nation went with a great orarator was I believe 1938 or 1939 and a country not that far from you.This country, the US, has indeed taken a new direction and mainly with horrible outcome.The average citizen here is losing their homes and due to economic failure and lack of jobs, are losing more than that.We are tired of governance that goes against this nations well being and has put us all in dire jeopardies.Rip offs and greed has not been held accountable and its consuming us a little more each day the sun rises.They claim slow recovery but we see it as a ruse to further their desires and agendas.Im neither for republican as G Bush didnt freeze oil prices at the pump and did not open OUR oil reserves to stave this off.The democrats I dont care for as their socialist measure fall way short of recovery and to enable bankers who basically spit in our face and openly partied on the money recieved while it would have been more prudent to just gove the people who were working and keeping the wheels of the economic structure turning.Bad management from the very top down and no relief in sight.This is how a country can fail from within are its leaders and their direction.Thus far our direction is an open pit spiraling downwards and theres no safe place to retreat to.a steady slow drain of economic death is the current trend no matter what analysts say, the proof is in everyday life and even the blind can see it.Tommorrow is almost scary to attend.

    Complain about this comment

  • 189. At 8:53pm on 28 Aug 2010, clamdip lobster claws wrote:

    I think Washington should be worried especially now that the movement is being swept up among Christians. The thing Washington doesn't understand is that most Americans are very patriotic and will defend their homeland against any foreign invader even Israel. Americans have their "eyes wide open" and they 'ain't happy! They want their country back from all usurpers posing as tried and true blue patriots. This is one movement that politicians are fierce to buy off. You haven't seen how really ugly and heated things can get but what a show it will be.

    Complain about this comment

  • 190. At 9:33pm on 28 Aug 2010, Marica wrote:

    I wonder how God feels. He is continously used and abused by these right wingers. They are basically extremists, right wing fascists.

    Complain about this comment

  • 191. At 9:57pm on 28 Aug 2010, FrankMcG wrote:

    My hope is that the Tea Party revolt gets things going in the right direction. We are not going to get out of our present economic dilemma anytime soon. It has been over 50 years in the making. Historically, over 37% of the work force was engaged in manufacturing, now it is below 10%. These political elites have lined their pockets and fattened their party coffers at the expense of working tax payers and although claiming to help the poor, have fostered their dependency to maintain a power base. NAFTA, international trade deals, and corporate tax breaks for corporations with off shore businesses have added to the economic problems and all thanks to the self-serving political ruling elite both democrats and republicans. You can't improve this economy by spending, since in most cases the money spent leaves the US to where the manufacturers are located and increasing the deficit will only increase the probability of total collapse. Check out what you buy and see where it is made. These people have poisoned the goose that laid the golden egg. I don't think praying under these circumstances is a bad idea.

    Complain about this comment

  • 192. At 10:46pm on 28 Aug 2010, jonyinternational wrote:

    God will refuse to attend such a party which sows the seed of hatred, racial discrimination and exclusion. This a party which habors such hateful opinions as these:
    1. Islam should not be tolerated (contrary to the constitution of America)
    2. Hispanics born in America by non-citizens should be deprived of citizenship by amending the constitution.
    3. That blacks should not tolerated including the black President as evidenced by their support of the frequent use of N word.

    This is also a party that has insulted the President of the United States beyond any imagination because he is an African-American. The level of hatred generated by this party is extreme. Just like such hate parties like the British National Party and the French National Party, the Tea Party may have a short-term gain but the long-term outcome will be negative as it has been for the British National Party and the French National Party. Humanity abhors hatred. Let us not forget that this is the way Hitler started a hate party that destroyed everything.

    Complain about this comment

  • 193. At 10:47pm on 28 Aug 2010, Rob wrote:

    I am not a big fan of communism proposers, but Marx was right on one thing. The religion is the best power-tool for draining people's brains and implanting stupid ideologies. Spritual freedom is a deeply personal matter and no detached cleric or (God forbid) greedy politician should be steering it. Unfortunately, there still is a wide audience in the American bible belt, that is willing to fight to stay in their comfort zone of dogmata dating back to when witches were being burnt at the stakes and the Earth was considered flat. I would not be surprised if the radicalization of the right succeeded.

    Complain about this comment

  • 194. At 10:48pm on 28 Aug 2010, American Sport Fan wrote:

    Greetings,

    My own personal interpretation is that god is looking down on America with great sadness. He sees what Social and REligious conservatives are trying to do in his name, and it greatly disturbs him. They convienantly for get the social justice side of christianity, which says there must be good will towards men. Yet many in the religious right would not do that today, instead they want to force their values upon the rest of the American people. What is so sad, is that I have no doubt that many of these poor lost souls actually believe that they will be going to heaven. Unfortunately, they are going to find that they're not going.

    Complain about this comment

  • 195. At 11:50pm on 28 Aug 2010, bannedgunner wrote:

    Tea party is the rope that Democrats are happily handing Republicans to hang themselves. Lets cut to the chase, it is last stand of the group of white (I am white American myself). Just listen to their slogans "We want our country back" From whom?
    "We want less government"; (Tea party member were and are the biggest supporter of patriot act, and their states get the biggest hand out from Washington).

    "Their candidates claim to go to Washington and raise hell. Tea party is strogenst in States that get more Tax dollars then the pay. And if you further add that majority of even the private companies in these conservative states are actually on government contract (Alaska the home of learder of tea party movement Sarah Palin) they are by far the largets benifical of Federal govt hand out.

    Tea Party is concerned about moral issues, yet tea party strongholds lead in crime, child PREGENCAY (Not birth mind you), child out of wedlock divorce per MARRIAGES NOT DIVORCE PER CAPITA. States like Mass, Connecticut, and other GODLESS IMMORAL LIBERAL states have lowest out of wedlock pregnancies, divorces etc.

    Tea party attendees often claim themselves to be "honest hard working folks". Not sure why they think they work any harder than say people in big cities like New York, Chicago and other liberal states.
    What they really mean is that they think city folks (Black and Hispanics) are on welfare and they are not. "The hard working honest folks living in heart land" are neither particularly hard working nor honest. They are slow and lazy. Go to any bank or restaurant in heartland and see laziness in action.
    These hard workers wouldn't last a day in big cities where people are too busy working hard to talk about working hard.

    And so what if their are large number of folks on welfare in the cities.

    Hard working folks of big cities like NY Chicago, etc are tho ones who give more on taxes. So it is the city folks themselves who are paying for their fellow city dweller, and they are also paying for those nice highways that allows the tea partiers to travel and come to DC and protest.

    I wish some Democrats would just have the guts to tell the states like Mo, Iowa, Georgia, Alabama, and Oklahoma, "if you think govt is taxing you too much, how about you don't pay any taxes and you don't get any federal money back." I guarantee if you put this on for a vote and have their congressional reps vote on it. None of them will accept it.

    Tea partiers are are also under the false impression (often with help of media); that they still represent the face of America! Pfff you are no more true Americans than big city dwellers and you certainly don't have as much voting power as you think. Yes! OBama is shaking in his boot cause he might lose those 5 elector-votes in Kansas, or Oklahoma that he was not going to win any way.

    Note how mainstream republicans are not screaming about OBama's stand in Arizona! OBama called ttheir bluff by coming out against the Arizona immigration law, and some foolish Republicans quickly jumped on the bandwagon, thinking they trapped the President, but smarter one realized that it was President Obama that is setting the trap. Tea partiers will win where Republicans generely win any way; it is more of case of their type of republican winning against what they call RINOs. But in swing states tea partiers are simply going to destroy Republican party's chances.
    Thanks to tea party movement Senator Reed of Neveda once thought to be
    in danger of losing his seat, is now safe bet to keep his seat.

    Complain about this comment

  • 196. At 00:05am on 29 Aug 2010, Zaheer Uddin wrote:

    Most people are unaware of the religion they follow, its an accident of birth just as their parents. Those of whom go to the mosque of Friday, synagogues on Saturday, Church on Sunday are following a traditional custom. The person on the pulpit gets educated in religious institutes where the main subject is their own faith and little if any thing is taught about other faiths, even if crossed in another domain more often than not it is hideous and nefarious chapter of lies. All institutions are means of controlling the masses and fleecing them of their hard earned earnings.

    Splinter groups have been sprouting in all religions as they want a piece of the pie. Their versions of religious teachings could be totally obtuse, yet the orators justify their abra-ca-dabra with poise and dignity. Some on the bank of a filthy river, nearly naked, living in monasteries ringing thimbles, gongs, bells; then there are those who run schools and live in splendour, driven in RRs, Mercedes, Caddies, with loads of wealth stashed away in foreign banks, make annual visits abroad; drug running as they have their tentacles in law enforcement department and parliamentarians with whom they have a quid pr quo relationship. Abuse of children goes a long way back. Its all a deception to control, money and politics.

    Complain about this comment

  • 197. At 00:49am on 29 Aug 2010, McJakome wrote:

    The Tea Party seems like one of the moreclueless "revolutionary" parties. If, as sometimes seems likely, they are being guided by right-wing religious and social extremists aided and abetted by FOX news, then they could be extremely dangerous for the American Constitutional order.

    In order to understand revolutionary movements, I would like to suggest a book for the interested readers. This one shows the connection of the American Revolution to the previous ones in Britain and the Netherlands [it is necessary to have previously read about the American Revolution and its antecedents*].

    It has very detailed excerpts from other works about various revolutions, especially in France and Russia. I found it very helpful in understanding the revolutionary and psuedorevolutionary movements in the U.S. today.

    Revolutions in Modern European History"
    Heinz Lubasz, Brandeis University, 1966, MacMillan

    *I posted this before but believe I should include it here:
    "The Radicalism of the American Revolution"
    Gordon S. Wood, 1991, First Vintage

    Complain about this comment

  • 198. At 01:19am on 29 Aug 2010, SaintDominick wrote:

    What is an integral part of the Tea Party is a rarefied concept of God, Holy books, Gospels and the teachings of profets taught us.

    My agnosticism is influenced mostly by rejection of religious dogma and superstition, but I must admit that it is also influenced by the actions taken by organized religious organizations and religious zealots through the course of history. The Tea Party is the latest example of the excesses carried out in the name of religion, the distorted views that some people have of the concept of God, and the arrogance of those who by deed or implication pretend to be acting on his behalf.

    Complain about this comment

  • 199. At 01:48am on 29 Aug 2010, mabelwhite wrote:

    "I say: my feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter...We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity ... in fact our movement is Christian..." - Adolf Hitler

    "The Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, a White Christian organization, standing up for rights and values of White Christian America since 1865." Cuffley v Univ of MO, 99-168, 8th Cir Ct App (2000)

    “Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites.” - Thomas Jefferson

    “The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries.” - James Madison

    Complain about this comment

  • 200. At 05:14am on 29 Aug 2010, jonyinternational wrote:

    The party is over and everyone has gone home. The reality before everyone is there. America lost its economy by outsourcing jobs since 1975 and the consequences are now before the Americans. The outsourcing enabled 1% of the Americans to become billionaires and condemned the remaining 99% to unemployment. You cannot eat your cake and still have it. This is a simple mathematics. If America outsourced its body and soul, why does it expect to have any life left. The America billionaires and entrepreneurs exported the jobs to Asia, why will there not be unemployment in America? Why does any reasonable person want Obama to do a miracle within 18 months to bring back the jobs that were outsourced by previous governments.
    The George W Bush tax cut for the same billionaires created about 30% of the present deficit. The same George W. Bush's wars created deficit of about one trillion dollars yearly for 8 year. The mathematics is easy. Therefore, the present economic mess was created by the previous government of George W. Bush just as his father created the economic mess which was solved by Clinton.
    The Tea Party should review the history if they have the brains. If the Tea Party were the leaders of tomorrow, America will be heading towards fascism. They have pocketed the Republican Party. The Republican Party has sold its political birth right and now wants a bunch of fascists to restore their political base. Unfortunately, these fascists will show their colors late and it will frighten everyone including the Republicans. This is the way Hitler started only to reveal his true color late. I hereby call Americans to reject these fascist elements in November.

    Complain about this comment

  • 201. At 06:10am on 29 Aug 2010, american grizzly wrote:

    Oh, the Bush guy did it all, the Democrats in congress were just along for the ride. Clinton fixed it, ohh, the Republicans in congress were just along for the ride. Ohh, the tea party is full of fascists, ohh the progressive liberals are just messanic messengers on a jihidist conquest to show us the light. What a bunch of drivel.

    Complain about this comment

  • 202. At 2:05pm on 29 Aug 2010, SaintDominick wrote:

    Ref 200, jonyinternational

    "The Republican Party has sold its political birth right and now wants a bunch of fascists to restore their political base"

    I agree with most of what you said, but I think you are wrong on this one. There are a lot of responsible and principled senators and congressmen in the GOP that are horrified by what they hear from the Tea Party. Unfortunately, they know that opposing the TP in the political climate of hysteria we are in would be political suicide, and they know that the TP will play a major role in getting Republicans back in power, if nothing else, by energizing the base of the party.

    People like John McCain, Orrin Hatch, Lindsey Graham and others hope that once in power they will be able to control the partisans that are going to be elected in November. They are wrong. Traditional etiquette and rules are about to go out the window and will be replaced with the lowest element of decorum, let alone logic or pragmatism.

    The push will be for lower taxes at a time when our economy needs a large infusion of money to recover, obviously, further tax reductions at a time when our tax rates are at record lows will increase our budget deficits more than they already are. A concerted effort will be made to cut some government agencies down to the bone at a time when government employment is one of a few lifelines available. Spending in education and infrastructure will be just a pipedream, at a time when education should be our top priority to prepare our young for the many high tech jobs that do exist, and investment in infrastructure and modernization is not only desperately needed but it would create tens of thousands of jobs for the unemployed.

    It is good to see that "conservatives" suddenly remembered the value of living within our means, saving, and not wasting money, but doing that at this time is like trying to contain a hemorrage with a bandaid. The patient needs a large transfusion, removing oxygen and hoping for a miracle is not going to do it.

    Complain about this comment

  • 203. At 2:53pm on 29 Aug 2010, jonyinternational wrote:

    Responding to the post: 191. At 9:57pm on 28 Aug 2010, FrankMcG wrote:

    "My hope is that the Tea Party revolt gets things going in the right direction. We are not going to get out of our present economic dilemma anytime soon. It has been over 50 years in the making"

    Thank you for such a wonderful analysis. The chicken has come home to roost. Recently, some American billionaires said they would donate their billions to charity. To which charity? Is this not part of the money they acquired by tax cut for the rich? Is this not also part of the money they scooped when they outsourced the American jobs to Asia? They made billions at the expense of the American workers. The economic collapse occurred in 2008 under George W. Bush's watch - the very architect of tax cut for the wealthy. Obama inherited an economic mess that has been in the making for 50 years. The solution is far away and very much beyond Obama. Unfortunately the fascists running the Tea Party will not understand this analysis. Americans must rise to vote and reject fascism in November.

    Complain about this comment

  • 204. At 3:44pm on 29 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    "I say: my feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter...We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity ... in fact our movement is Christian..." - Adolf Hitler
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "You know he is the wrong father to appeal to in terms of strength. There is a higher father that I appeal to," Bush

    The president described praying as he walked outside the Oval Office after giving the order to begin combat operations against Iraq, and the powerful role his religious beliefs played throughout that time.

    "Going into this period, I was praying for strength to do the Lord's will. . . . I'm surely not going to justify war based upon God. Understand that. Nevertheless, in my case I pray that I be as good a messenger of His will as possible".

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17347-2004Apr16.html

    Complain about this comment

  • 205. At 4:06pm on 29 Aug 2010, RHCracker wrote:

    203. At 2:53pm on 29 Aug 2010, jonyinternational wrote:

    Obama inherited an economic mess that has been in the making for 50 years.
    The solution is far away and very much beyond Obama.
    ...................................................
    What you left out was the problem is also Obama,check the spending facts.

    Maybe if he takes a few more vacations this year he will have time to straighten this mess out.

    Complain about this comment

  • 206. At 4:29pm on 29 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    195. These hard workers wouldn't last a day in big cities where people are too busy working hard to talk about working hard.

    And so what if their are large number of folks on welfare in the cities.

    you certainly don't have as much voting power as you think.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I would love to see people from the city attempt to work on the farm- feeding chickens, milking cows, herding sheep or llamas, baking a full meal three times a day, riding horses, riding tractors, detassling corn, etc. You have no idea how deroggatory your remarks are...truly sad...

    So what? You don't sound too concerned. You act like we don't all pay our fair share of taxes...again deroggatory...

    You would be surprised at how spread out we are...and how we also hold the country together in the middle...ironic to see how some people are ungrateful to the ones who grow their corn, soybeans, etc. At least we can say that we contribute directly to American lives, and with our extra, lives around the world, as well. Course' we always hope for the best with the weather...nothing is a given, even in crop lands...

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    203, Obama inherited an economic mess that has been in the making for 50 years. The solution is far away and very much beyond Obama.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    On one hand, I understand what you are saying- what a mess that has been created...on the other hand...if our President can't do anything, then who can? What, we are just supposed to give up all hope now that Obama is President? Gee, thanx. I do not believe or buy the analysis of your argument.

    Right now, we are stuck in a rut. It has been a long war, which is still going. Our confidence is down. We are moving around in circles. What better time than now than to re-take back America and make it better than it even was before?

    Oh, so some think we can't do it? They think, 'stick a fork in me, I'm done.' Well, if Washington had said that, we might not be here today. If Eisenhower said that, we might not be here today. If Lincoln said that, we might not be here today. If we want America to get better, we have to rally the spirit of America past, present and future.

    If they push us, let's push back. If the fighting is getting tough, let's fight harder. If they want to tell us what to do, let's ignore them and do what we want to do.

    We need something new, something that generates American creation and versatility, something that sparks new interests. We can start doing stuff right now by creating new American businesses. It is time to move on and start doing new things. Let's generate some excitement here, let's go to the next level. Unless we are interested in having the Chinese, Indians or the Russians be the wave of the future, America and Obama have got to act soon and start helping create new businesses that employ Americans and make American products...there are trillions of patents, many have hardly been used or experimented with...Americans are incredibly inventive people...but we need our President to throw his weight behind new American products...as our growth has slowed, we need new growth...




    Complain about this comment

  • 207. At 4:32pm on 29 Aug 2010, RHCracker wrote:


    202. At 2:05pm on 29 Aug 2010, SaintDominick wrote:
    ]A concerted effort will be made to cut some government agencies down to the bone at a time when government employment is one of a few lifelines available. Spending in education and infrastructure will be just a pipedream, at a time when education should be our top priority to prepare our young for the many high tech jobs that do exist, and investment in infrastructure and modernization is not only desperately needed but it would create tens of thousands of jobs for the unemployed.
    ......................................................

    ST.D.

    Government jobs are not the answer and are not a lifeline at all,the government has no money without taxing the private sector.
    They have no money for education without private sector money,infrastructure is built with money taxed from the working.
    Hiring more government workers just means taxing workers in private sector more than the inflated rates we already pay.

    Creating jobs,by loosening regulations and impact fees for small business
    maybe apply tariffs to imported goods we could manufacture here,stop allowing companies to operate offshore to enjoy a tax haven while companies in the U.S. are put at an unfair disadvantage,when they hire Americans to do the same job.
    Bigger government will never be the answer.

    As far as the education,you are right on on that except our government seems more interested in educating foreigners for these hi-tech jobs than educating our own students,for most working parents college tuition has gotten too expensive and out of reach ,but we will educate those from other countries for free.

    Complain about this comment

  • 208. At 5:24pm on 29 Aug 2010, RHCracker wrote:

    206. At 4:29pm on 29 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    Could not have said it better Lucy. ON THE MONEY.


    Give this a listen .These are the values lost to the big city wellfare recipients,and the rest of the socialist gimme crowd.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSlArizRI-E

    Complain about this comment

  • 209. At 6:08pm on 29 Aug 2010, RHCracker wrote:


    Hard working folks of big cities like NY Chicago, etc are tho ones who give more on taxes. So it is the city folks themselves who are paying for their fellow city dweller, and they are also paying for those nice highways that allows the tea partiers to travel and come to DC and protest.

    WOW,now those in the south dont even contribute to the federal budget in your small left leaning mind.
    N.Y. and Chicago may pay more in than places with smaller populations ,but they soak it all up with sanctuary city policies, more wellfare recipients and the basic costs of running a large city and its infrastructure.

    As for your comment;
    The hard working honest folks living in heart land" are neither particularly hard working nor honest.

    Spoken like a true American hater.

    Complain about this comment

  • 210. At 7:22pm on 29 Aug 2010, SaintDominick wrote:

    Ref 207, RHCracker

    We would all prefer to have a robust economy with companies hiring, and less dependence on unemployment benefits and government work to survive, but when the private sector is near collapse and not hiring, having a government job fixing roads and bridges is much better than having people go to the nearest unemployment office to collect a paycheck. Not only will the recipient earn a living with dignity but our communities and states benefit from the work they do and our tax base remains high enough to prevent school closings, teacher and police layoffs, etc.

    Is it an ideal situation? Of course not, but at the moment there are no alternatives.

    Applying taxes or tariffs on imported good is a two-edge sword. Not only will our trading partners retaliate, but the immediate result is that we - the American consumer - end up paying more for the things we need. I would much rather buy an old RCA TV than an imported one, but we don't build them any more. The same goes for dozens of other items that we buy and need. The sad truth is that the migration of jobs and technology overseas have left us dependent on imported goods. This was not by President Obama, Bush or Clinton, it can be traced back to the Nixon era when the transition from an industrial based society to a service oriented society was conceived, and deficit spending was advertised as a good thing.

    As for our infrastructure, it has been neglected by successive Republican and Democratic administrations for decades, while we spend billions of dollars in wars that should have never taken place, and building expensive weapons to fight imaginary enemies at a time when the only real potential enemies (China and Russia) are too busy investing in infrastructure and expanding their economies to care about armed conflicts. They discovered that the most effective place to achieve global supremacy is in the market place, while we continue to look at the Roman model for inspiration.

    There are hard working people in every corner of our country, both in urban and rural areas, the problem is that the rug has been pulled from under our feet. The transition from industry to service may have worked if our people had been prepared for it, unfortunately little emphasis has been placed on educating or re-training our people and we are now paying the price for it.

    Most of the foreigners that enter the US with H2B visas, and take some of the best paid jobs available today, already have an excellent education. That is the reason they get those visas. There are a lot of foreigners attending college in the US, but we are not paying for their education, the government of their respective countries, or their daddies, are paying for it. In fact, foreign students represent a bonanza for our colleges.

    As far as President Obama inheriting a mess, that is a fact. Let's not forget the speech made by former President Bush in 2008 when he announced that the "US economy was on the verge of collapse". Having said that, President Obama knew what he was getting into and he has nobody to blame for his decision to run. I doubt he will be able to turn things around in four years, and I doubt his successor will either. Our problems are not insurmountable, and our country can bounce back, but it will not happen with the level of obstructionism that exists today, and the short sighted solutions that are beiung proposed at a time when more government investment and involvement are needed until consumer confidence is restored, industry recovers, and the private sector no longer needs a crutch.

    Complain about this comment

  • 211. At 5:36pm on 30 Aug 2010, RHCracker wrote:

    210. At 7:22pm on 29 Aug 2010, SaintDominick wrote:

    , but when the private sector is near collapse and not hiring, having a government job fixing roads and bridges is much better than having people go to the nearest unemployment office to collect a paycheck.


    ..................................................
    While this sound nice ,on paper it will not sustain.
    our government has to reduce their budgets to meet shortfalls,where is the money going to come from to pay for more government employees,and more infrastructure projects,they will borrow it from our children and grandchildren strapping them with bills before some are even born.
    This is not the fix,reduced government size ,streamlining every aspect of government oversight and eliminating some agencies all-together,would be a start.
    The list is very long of wasted money on government pet projects that should not even be considered in a time of recession yet they forge on.
    We have many federal state and local government employees making several times what can be made in the private sector now,for comparable jobs in the same areas.
    You must also remember when government grows it will not reduce in size in the future,they will just find new ways to tax the few working to make the budget.They have a lot more money to work with now if we could
    eliminate the waste.

    Reduced burdens on small business,such as less impact fees, less taxes
    low interest loans to those capable of expanding and hiring new employees,would be a start.
    The private sector knows how to invest their money much better that the government.

    Complain about this comment

  • 212. At 6:05pm on 30 Aug 2010, RHCracker wrote:

    210. At 7:22pm on 29 Aug 2010, SaintDominick wrote:

    Applying taxes or tariffs on imported good is a two-edge sword. Not only will our trading partners retaliate, but the immediate result is that we - the American consumer - end up paying more for the things we need. I would much rather buy an old RCA TV than an imported one, but we don't build them any more

    On some items,I know we cannot compete anymore with cheap chinese labor,
    but some of the things we import are just plain worthless,our markets are flooded with chinese trinkets that are either unsafe,contain lead ,or are junk not worth buying.Take chinese hammers for instance,you can buy one for a couple of dollars but it wont drive one nail without the pot metal shattering in your face,or the handle snapping off. We build estwing hammers in Illinois that for about 18. dollars you can buy and they last a lifetime.
    What im getting at is we dont need a lot of the junk we import and people only purchase it because they see it on the shelf,and its cheap.
    All we are doing allowing this to continue is emboldening our enemy,China,and killing off all of our own manufacturing jobs.

    Tariffs may be the answer to this,and could also be the answer to the American companies who are allowed to pawn their products freely in America while manufacturing outside our borders with foreign labor,and a tax haven.
    Offering tax breaks and incentives to companies doing business in the U.S. and tariffs on those products coming across our borders would I believe retrieve some of those manufacturing jobs.
    At least until cap and trade is passed which is when they will disappear again.

    Complain about this comment

  • 213. At 7:04pm on 30 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    Doesnt this thread topic become redundent after glen blake calls for G-d at the event organized by the tea partiers? One entertainer wannab politician called G-d, the other politician wannabe entertainer that her son was a soldier in iraq..Add these together..you get G-d's soldier, aka crussader..

    Complain about this comment

  • 214. At 7:34pm on 30 Aug 2010, SaintDominick wrote:

    Ref 312, RHCracker

    "The private sector knows how to invest their money much better that the government."

    That is generally true, but there are two problems with the concept that make that approach an improbable course of action to solve our economic problems.

    1. Most of our companies, large and small, are short of money and credit at the moment.
    2. The private sector does not have the obligation or inclination to invest on social programs and infrastructure when those investments do not involve a solid return on investment.
    We could privatize air traffic controller services, but whether or not that decision will result in savings to the American people is questionable.

    We could privatize the Weather Service, but the only way we could do that would be to pay for weather forecasts. People could opt whether or not they want to learn about hurricanes, earthquakes, or floods are heading their way, and if they don't have the money to pay for that service, or are not interested, we can just let them die. Again, I am not sure that would produce savings and the likely result would be people being unaware of impending dangers because they will not want to spend money on services that may or may not affect them directly.

    We could privatize the Center for Disease Control and let private doctors and pharmaceuticals study new strains of viruses and manufacture the appropiate vaccines, but I doubt that would result in savings.

    We could scrap NASA and limit our involvement in space to buying tickets on the Russian Soyuz, but I don't think that is what a great nation ought to do.

    We could also let private industry build new roads, bridges, tunnels, airports, modernize our power grid, build new levees and dams, etc. Most private companies are not interested in that type of business because return on investment is minimal. The same goes for food inspectors, customs, and a myriad of government services, and let's not forget that in some cases we would be giving the fox the keys to the chicken coop.

    Bear in mind that many of the services provided by the government are already being done by contractors working for private industry. The role of the government is quite often limited to budget management, oversight, and determining new requirements.

    It would be ideal to do away with government, but the only way to do that would be to live in a utopian society where there is no crime, no greed, no hatred, and no prejudice. We are not there yet and I doubt we will ever be.


    Complain about this comment

  • 215. At 7:38pm on 30 Aug 2010, SaintDominick wrote:

    Ref 212, RHCracker

    I don't oppose raising tariffs, in fact, I think that may be the way to go, but we better understand the consequences of that decision.

    You are absolutely right in saying that a lot of the imported stuff we buy is junk, and I am not only talking about chinese toys contaminated with led paint. One of the reasons our children are doing so poorly in school is not because our teachers and schools are bad, but because they spend more time talking on their cell phones, texting, and playing video games than studying and the parents are too busy or involved to step in and force them to study. The result is a lost generation of Americans.



    Complain about this comment

  • 216. At 04:14am on 31 Aug 2010, KScurmudgeon wrote:

    * 213. At 7:04pm on 30 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    "Doesnt this thread topic become redundent after glen blake calls for G-d at the event organized by the tea partiers? One entertainer wannab politician called G-d, the other politician wannabe entertainer that her son was a soldier in iraq ..Add these together..you get G-d's soldier, aka crussader.."
    --------------------------------------

    Wait minute – aren’t Jihadists G-d’s soldiers? Or is there some semantic loophole in the Arabic that I missed?

    KScurmudgeon

    Complain about this comment

  • 217. At 4:14pm on 31 Aug 2010, RHCracker wrote:

    214. At 7:34pm on 30 Aug 2010, SaintDominick wrote:

    Ref 312, RHCracker

    "The private sector knows how to invest their money much better that the government."

    That is generally true, but there are two problems with the concept that make that approach an improbable course of action to solve our economic problems.

    ST.dom.

    What I meant was not to get rid of government or to privatize every aspect of it,we've all seen the corruption involved in these transfers.
    What I meant was trying to create jobs and save an economy by hiring in the public sector does neither.I also was saying government is overgrown now and many government employees are overpayed dead weight.Getting control of the funds they have to work with now would be a good start on saving this economy.


    In times like these the government should budget more carefully ,trim down and get by with what they have,and instead of spending on government projects to create jobs ,help small business who need low interest loans,reduce restrictions on manufacturing,as well as taxes fees and whatever else they can do to help promote business growth and hiring .Tariffs on some imported products would help protect our manufacturing base.I'm no economist but I do know hiring a government employee does not add to the budget.

    Complain about this comment

  • 218. At 5:34pm on 31 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    Wait minute – aren’t Jihadists G-d’s soldiers? Or is there some semantic loophole in the Arabic that I missed?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Jihadists are not G-d's soldiers.. I and rest of the muslims dont even know what this term mean in islam...there is no mention of jihadists in the history of islam.. However crussaders are G-d's soldiers..western G-d's children fighting against muslims...thats the history of western christianity..

    Complain about this comment

  • 219. At 00:24am on 02 Sep 2010, AmericanCrier wrote:

    if God has not already invited, then the tea party has a problem.

    however, it is easy to correct. just invite Him.

    Complain about this comment

  • 220. At 9:26pm on 05 Sep 2010, McJakome wrote:

    The GOP/FOX/TEA Party has a "God" problem all right. They have to keep their religiosity non-denominational. Beck is a Mormon some menbers are "right to life" Catholics and both religions are considered anti-Christian by the fundamentalist religious right. Get too explicit about God and Bible and the movement will explode in sectarian animosity.

    I hope it happens. If "those who live by the sword shall die by the sword," then shall those who live by religious extremism prosper?

    Complain about this comment

  • 221. At 9:03pm on 06 Sep 2010, qmrfc67 wrote:

    #184 Lucy asked me "if he is so liberal what is he doing in the military?"
    Well I must be a lot older than you Lucy because you obviously don't remember a thing called the draft. Yeah he was drafted and he served proudly and well.
    And once again there is in your question the underlying accusation that liberals are unpatriotic and don't love their country which was what I found objectionable in the first place. Thank you for so graphically proving my point.

    Complain about this comment

  • 222. At 01:57am on 12 Sep 2010, McJakome wrote:

    221. At 9:03pm on 06 Sep 2010, qmrfc67 RE #184 wrote:

    "And once again there is in your question the underlying accusation that liberals are unpatriotic and don't love their country which was what I found objectionable in the first place. Thank you for so graphically proving my point."

    Welcome to the club. You are not the first to find out that there is a closed mind that believes it is open, an obvious bigot if not racist who can't see it [or perhaps doesn't believe its wrong or is ashamed to admit it], a person who might entertain a new thought for a few minutes, then gets back on the exercise wheel in that mental cage and runs round and round never going anywhere.

    I find it's best to ignore such posts altogether, if you read one you might be lured in to responding and then suffer a frustrating dialog of the deaf. One can't reason with the unreasonable nor educate the ineducable.


    Complain about this comment

  • 223. At 06:35am on 12 Sep 2010, _marko wrote:

    To Restecp #186

    "I am glad to have somebody resisting the multicultural elite"
    Why?

    Is this compatible with your religious doctrine?

    Complain about this comment

  • 224. At 07:10am on 12 Sep 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    Yes, Q, you are older than me. I was not born til the 80's, so no, no recollection of the draft, just what I've heard. I am really talking more of modern day liberals and of the ones I happen to know, none are interested in the military, which is okay, its not for them. I did not mean to generalize saying that all of like this way, I'm just thinking of some in particular.

    JMM, take it easy, man. Take it easy, but take it. If I'm so uneducable, how did I graduate with honors, including NHS, in high school and college?
    Maybe its time to think positive here?

    Complain about this comment

  • 225. At 6:50pm on 12 Sep 2010, Interestedforeigner wrote:

    224. At 07:10am on 12 Sep 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    "If I'm so uneducable, how did I graduate with honors, including NHS, in high school and college?"

    ------------

    There are just way, way too many one-liners that could be prompted by this comment. However, in the interest of better decorum I will let this opportunity pass, and merely say:

    Lucy, you are an enigma, though perhaps not wrapped in a riddle.

    Complain about this comment

  • 226. At 10:12pm on 12 Sep 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    Thanks, IF. That is very kind of you.

    Yeah, I have always passed my classes with flying colors, but then again, I am one of those people who is good at memorizing things quickly for a test and then forgetting them after, unless it is a very interesting topic or researched in great depth.

    Of course, usually one studies the most at their occupation- not necessarily in other subjects.

    I dispute JMM's theory that I am uneducable, as the truth is, people feel one way one day and they may feel another way another day. For me, some days I feel more liberal than others, but the conservative values always come back and don't really fully leave from within. Sometimes there is some flip-flopping and that's just the way it is. I have the right to flip-flop all I want. When Bush was President, I called myself Democrat and liberal. Now that Obama is President I call myself Independent or Tea Party.

    Obama is basically a good man, he just is going about some things with the wrong approach and wrong outlook- focusing on helping certain groups and ignoring others. Hope one day he will open his eyes and see the world as it is with everyone included.

    Complain about this comment

  • 227. At 01:08am on 13 Sep 2010, Interestedforeigner wrote:

    226. At 10:12pm on 12 Sep 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    "Obama is basically a good man,..."

    He and John McCain are both "basically good men".

    ------------

    One of the things that bothers me most at present though, is this:
    There are very few things that president Obama has done that I would not have done myself. There are times when I read his speeches, and think they could have come from my own pen.

    Yet I am big white male, my family has been here a long, long time; nobody would ever mistake me for anything other than a fiscal conservative; I would never be mistaken for being a Socialist, or for being in favour of Islam, for disguising the fact that I wasn't really born here ... I would not have to put up with any of that crap.

    In all of these things, and particularly in the field of civil rights, President Obama, generally does the very same things that I myself would do, and he is taunted for:

    not really being born in America;
    not sharing "American values";
    not being a Christian;
    being a closet Muslim;
    for being pro-Muslim;
    for being a radical socialist;
    for being a marxist;
    for being a nazi;
    (or, my personal favourite: a radical nazi-socialist)
    for being too liberal;
    for having a radical liberal agenda
    (a neat trick, keeping in mind that liberalism and socialism are polar opposites)...

    and on, and on, and on.


    If he were a big white male, like me, with a family that had been here for a long time, like me, with a white bread name and family history, like me, would anybody be making those accusations?


    Not very likely.


    ------------

    Yes, he is, like most people who run for public office, certainly including John McCain, basically a good man.

    It seems to me that Barack Obama is intellectually and philosophically closer to the Age of Enlightenment thinkers who founded the country than any President who has served since Lincoln - including Kennedy and Clinton. He has stood up and defended the constitution with courage and determination - particularly when and where it was unpopular to do so - without flinching or shirking, where many of his predecessors would have found ways to duck.

    I expected next to nothing of this man, and he has turned out to be one of the best Presidents I have seen in my lifetime.

    Right now I believe that he is being deluged in a propaganda shower of criticism and outright abuse that has neither truth behind it, nor even the slightest veneer of fairness.

    Complain about this comment

  • 228. At 8:11pm on 13 Sep 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    IF wrote: If he were a big white male, like me, with a family that had been here for a long time, like me, with a white bread name and family history, like me, would anybody be making those accusations?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Yes, most people would make these accusations regardless of skin color or age. Why do I say this? Because the American public voted for Obama and over half of America is white.

    An ultraliberal is not defined by color, but by his or her agenda.

    I myself, am proof your theory is wrong. Why? Because I voted for Obama and when I did it had nothing to do with his skin color- it was because of what he said. If I was racist, I wouldn't have voted for him. But I am not racist and I liked what he said, so I did vote for him. I know lots of other white people, too, including ones I egged on ,who voted for Obama and could care less about his skin color.

    I just wish that Obama hadn't touched all the hot topics. But he did touch the hot topics and he took sides. He made his choice. To you, this is bravery. To me, this is why I don't like him anymore as a president. He did what he believed was right, regardless of whether America agrees or disagrees with him. And that is his right. It is our right to vote his friends out if we don't like what he thinks is right.

    ANd when you take a side or stance for an issue that over 70% of Americans disagree with, you can't exactly expect to be Mr. Popular anymore.

    Or expect your friends to get re-elected.

    I hope that the party will soon be over for the ultraliberals...it can't come a minute too soon!

    Complain about this comment

  • 229. At 02:07am on 14 Sep 2010, Interestedforeigner wrote:

    228. At 8:11pm on 13 Sep 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    "Yes, most people would make these accusations regardless of skin color or age. Why do I say this? Because the American public voted for Obama and over half of America is white."

    [[Keep in mind that if you met me on the street, you would likely think I was from Ohio, or Indiana, or Pennsylvania...]]

    Well the accusations are that he is a muslim.

    The accusations are that he wasn't born in the US.

    The accusation is that because his father is Kenyan the President is somehow not a real American.

    The accusation is (now, see the new string today) somehow that his father is a "philandering inebriated Kenyan anti-colonialist socialist" and that this is in some way relevant to anything.



    There is no way that any of that nonsense would be levelled at me, or any other big white American male, and my views are as close to President Obama's views on most days you'd have difficulty seeing light between us. (Not that I expected this when he was elected. Came as quite a surprise, really.)

    Every last bit of it is based on President Obama's supposed cultural, religious and racial difference from "real" Americans.

    Well, he's no more different from "real" Americans than I am, or than any other elected member of Congress.

    All of it is ridiculous clap-trap.



    Maybe you didn't notice that Senator Clinton won the West Virginia Democratic primary by a 41% margin of victory over Senator Obama.

    Complain about this comment

  • 230. At 06:25am on 14 Sep 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    Well, he's no more different from "real" Americans than I am, or than any other elected member of Congress.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    IF, I thought you were Canadian?

    Or are you an American now?

    Complain about this comment

  • 231. At 06:29am on 14 Sep 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    I mean, look, I love Canada, USA and Canada are superclose and we get along very well. We are very similar in many ways.

    A Canadian is a lot like an American, but definitely a Canadian.

    Differences exist. But our countries are great allies and supporters of democracy and freedom.

    Complain about this comment

  • 232. At 1:48pm on 15 Sep 2010, McJakome wrote:

    229. At 02:07am on 14 Sep 2010, Interestedforeigner

    Most Americans know that racism is wrong, or at least that many people will look down on them if they admit to it. Instead of reforming themselves they either simply hide their racism under the cover of other things; or, as you can see in these posts, they tell themselves that they are not racist until they actually believe it.

    They then become, or say they are, offended when you point out their racism [or other prejudices]. The ones who knowingly hide their prejudice believe they are right and everyone who doesn't share them are deluded, politically correct, fools. The ones who are just "unaware" may be in the majority, and they lack the ability to see themselves clearly or analyze their own deep fears, emotions and prejudices.

    That, at least, is how I see it. I will try for a while to get through to the latter, but I have too low a tolerance for pain to keep beating my head against a stone wall for very long. I admire your perseverance, and I wish you the best of luck in your continuing endeavor.

    Complain about this comment

  • 233. At 05:27am on 16 Sep 2010, _marko wrote:

    Lucy #228
    "Yes, most people would make these accusations regardless of skin color or age"

    You don't feel that the accusation that he wasn't born in the US is racist.

    To understand your judgement,

    Can you describe any examples of criticism or action towards Obama that you would unequivocally and without hesitation label as racist?

    (without the words or actions constituting an identifiable criminal offence)

    Complain about this comment

  • 234. At 1:43pm on 16 Sep 2010, Interestedforeigner wrote:

    230. At 06:25am on 14 Sep 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    "IF, I thought you were Canadian?
    Or are you an American now?"

    ____________

    Lucy,

    My point had to do with religious, ethnic, or racial background.

    In that regard, millions and millions of Americans have exactly the same religious, ethnic and racial background as I do, and someone who looks like me, and has the same background as me, would never be questioned about whether they were "American" enough the way President Obama has been.

    Yet President Obama, who merely happens to hold the same views as a great many people who have had a Methodist or Presbyterian upbringing, is subjected to this barrage of nonsense that, when you boil it down, is based on nothing more than raw religious, ethnic, and racial prejudice.

    The people behind it know better, but they do it deliberately for partisan political advantage.

    Why is their morality not being questioned?
    Why are their ethics not being questioned?
    Why is their honesty not being questioned?





    For those who find it difficult to predict President Obama's behaviour, (which I do not find difficult to predict at all) I give this hint:

    In any situation, without regard to political partisanship, figure out which course of action is in America's best interest in the long term, and most consistent with the duty to defend and protect the Constitution of the United States. Then figure out what steps a literate, thoughtful, intelligent and reasonable person would take to advance that course of action.

    That is what President Obama will do.

    It is entirely predictable that he will gather together experts in the field and listen carefully to their advice before making a decision.

    It is also entirely predictable that he will make this choice without paying any attention to, for example, the oil industry, AIPAC, or religious zealots.


    It's really easy, actually.

    It's how government is supposed to work.

    Complain about this comment

  • 235. At 8:54pm on 16 Sep 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    Marko wrote: You don't feel that the accusation that he wasn't born in the US is racist.

    To understand your judgement,

    Can you describe any examples of criticism or action towards Obama that you would unequivocally and without hesitation label as racist?

    (without the words or actions constituting an identifiable criminal offence)
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    No, I don't feel the question of if he was born in USA racist.
    He was accused of it because he is a liberal Democrat and some did not want a Democrat as President.
    And in fact, some liberals questioned McCain, as he was not born in USA, but was born on a military base.
    The election in 08' was fierce. In all honesty, the heat was on high and people were going wild. Things are bound to happen.
    And when it comes down it, there is freedom of speech, which gives people the right to question what they want.

    Marko, the problem is that some people focus too much on race and use it as an excuse or cover.

    I am against Obama agenda, but do I believe Obama is legally an American? Yes, of course. He has a legit birth certificate. If I didn't believe he was an American, I wouldn't have voted for him...

    Complain about this comment

  • 236. At 9:04pm on 16 Sep 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    It is also entirely predictable that he will make this choice without paying any attention to, for example, the oil industry, AIPAC, or religious zealots.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I highly disagree. Obama has many minority and liberal groups clamoring for what they want and some of them have received what they want.

    Example: open gays in the military.

    When Obama gave a speech in Cali, he was heckled by lesbian and gay activists who shouted at him that he was not forcing the military to accept openly gays fast enough, despite the fact that he was pushing the bill through. When I heard Obama was heckled by ultraliberals, I had to laugh. It still makes me laugh, because those people have no idea Obama went out on a limb for them, causing many Americans to no longer like him, possibly causing him to lose re-election or Dems lose House, yet those people still demanded more. Some people are never satisfied.

    Int. For., I feel the same about you as I do about marko:

    You should focus more on the person, rather than the race.

    When I look at Obama, yes, characteristically he is half black and half white, but what defines him is his actions and his agenda.

    Many who do not like Obama policies is due to agenda and not race.

    But to talk about race. Some foreigners say that America still has many race problems, (Holder, anyone?) but when it comes down to it, Obama was elected, which shows we are not racist, because if we were racist, he would simply not have been elected.

    So maybe its time to give America some credit, eh? ")

    Complain about this comment

  • 237. At 11:40pm on 16 Sep 2010, _marko wrote:

    To LucyJ #235

    The more opinions the better!

    If people can't agree on what is racist, asking for examples would help clarify the situation. If someone is hesitiant to come up with examples, (without the words or actions constituting an identifiable criminal offence) examples that would strongly indicate the difference between real racism and excuse or cover racism, then I believe it might be too difficult to define and they might be unable to see it in any situation. When a person confidently labels something as not racist, what kind of credibility have they got if they can't say what actually is racist?

    When posting something it is natural to express agreement or disagreement, with some supporting evidence. I'm just suprised that if there are conflicting or nonsense views ("Obama is a muslim") you feel no obligation to contradict false information. I made assumptions when reading your contributions, thinking that generally an exchange of opinions is useful to differentiate fact from fiction (and sometimes entertaining).

    I may understand you better now. You're sincere and honest about expressing opinions but have little interest in focussing on whether the things you say are valid or not.

    Judge America by it actions and give credit just to those Americans who do good things.

    Complain about this comment

  • 238. At 2:15pm on 17 Sep 2010, McJakome wrote:

    237. At 11:40pm on 16 Sep 2010, _marko wrote
    To LucyJ #235:
    “I made assumptions when reading your contributions, thinking that generally an exchange of opinions is useful to differentiate fact from fiction (and sometimes entertaining).

    I may understand you better now. You're sincere and honest about expressing opinions but have little interest in focussing on whether the things you say are valid or not.”

    Truth and validity are not only NOT important to a propagandist, they are self-defeating. Giving one side of an issue, especially when you know and can even sometimes admit that the other side has some validity, is also neither honest nor sincere.

    Lying by distortion or giving one side of a story is still lying. Saying that one has freedom of speech and need not mention the other side of an argument is a facile but illusory defense. It is still dishonest, manipulative and a lie.

    If there is any honesty or sincerity in LucyJ it is that she honestly and sincerely believes that her ideas and goals are right, all others are wrong and that anything she does to forward them [lying, cheating, distorting, misinterpreting, obfuscating, etc] are justified, and even noble. In this, she may be Sarah Palin's twin sister.

    Complain about this comment

  • 239. At 8:15pm on 17 Sep 2010, U14613024 wrote:

    Palin Patter is quite unsophisticated dogma
    1.Hate the Black Face in the White House & 2.Ride the wave of white america's disgust
    3.like the cheap jokes circulating the internet
    4. and tea baggers propaganda about muslims
    5. and as subtle as the numerous death threats

    Complain about this comment

  • 240. At 00:02am on 18 Sep 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    JMM wrote: In this, she may be Sarah Palin's twin sister.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    If I was Palin's twin, my book would already be famous! :)

    But I'm clearly not her twin, as I am much younger.
    SO don't worry, the Tea Party thrives in youth, too!

    JMM, what did you think when those gay and lesbian activists heckled Obama in Cali for not doing what they wanted fast enough?
    Do you think that they thought they were right and others were wrong?

    BTW, you have no idea the amount of love and giving that is in my heart.

    Complain about this comment

View these comments in RSS

BBC iD

Sign in

BBC navigation

BBC © 2014 The BBC is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.

This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.