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Mosque row exposes Obama on two sides

Mark Mardell | 21:58 UK time, Tuesday, 17 August 2010

President Barack Obama's original comments on the New York mosque have forced other Democrats to distance themselves from him and allowed Republicans to take easy, cheap shots. No matter, for a few hours it looked to friends on the left as if he was providing bold and brave leadership.

Then he delivered some more remarks, in shirt sleeves and ready for his holiday, on airport tarmac but it could have been the middle of the road. You know - the place you get run over, especially in American politics.

iftar_getty304.jpgHe had enraged the right by saying at a White House dinner to mark the end of the day's fast during Ramadan that Muslims had the right to build a mosque close to Ground Zero in New York, two blocks from the site of the 9/11 attack on the Twin Towers.

Within 24 hours he'd performed the trick that is beginning to frustrate and upset those who should be his most loyal supporters.

In that airport sound bite, he said that he was not commenting and would not comment on the wisdom of building the mosque, merely the right to do so. It may well be that this is "Professor Obama" to the fore again, making a distinction that would be obvious to anyone at Harvard Law School between what the constitution says and what is morally or culturally desirable.

But politicians live and die by crude sound bites and the even cruder caricatures that flow from them and would-be liberal supporters despair that this looks like taking fright and running away. They despair that he is holding too true to campaign promises to stand above petty party politics when the fray is at its height.

To be seen as moderate and judicious might be no bad thing for the president. The trouble is that in these febrile times, there is no chance of that: the right immediately leapt on his remarks and portrayed them as un-American. Those planning the mosque, within an Islamic cultural centre inside a tall building, say it is a monument to peace and they want a memorial to the victims of the attacks inside. No matter. Conservatives compare them to Nazis building near a concentration camp or the Japanese setting up a cultural centre at Pearl Harbour.

As one commentator has pointed out, that is just about saying that all Muslims are terrorists. It is only the fringes that accuse (yes, accuse) President Obama of secretly being a Muslim - as John McCain said during the campaign, he's not a Muslim, "he's a decent family man".

But the rest are happy to portray him as insensitively unpatriotic, caring about the feelings of Muslim, not American, victims. On the revitalised right, it is an unspoken assumption that "American" means conservative, white and Christian... You don't have to be all of these to belong, but you have to behave as though you were.

It works.

Several Democrats fighting for their seats in Congress in this election year, including Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, normally among the most liberal of liberals, have disowned the president's remarks and spoken out against the mosque.

The perception of Obama as standing slightly outside the mainstream, so helpful during the campaign, is now a weapon in the hands of his enemies in this election year.

To his enemies he's "the other", to the American left, neither one thing nor the other. The row over the mosque will probably fade but the politician who so carefully defined himself page by page in two books, who wrote his own script so carefully, no longer seems to control the plot.

Comments

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  • 1. At 03:55am on 18 Aug 2010, LIbertarian wrote:

    While it is a bit of an insensitive move to build such a large mosque so close to ground zero, I have to agree with the president that they have every right to build whatever they damn well please on their private property. I find it much more curious that he made the unwise move of putting a great big "kick me" sign on his political backside. Surely he didn't think that the majority of Americans would actually view the clip themselves instead of listening and nodding their heads to the commentary of their favorite like minded political commentators?

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  • 2. At 03:59am on 18 Aug 2010, Philly-Mom wrote:

    Good grief.
    Good things have been derailed by petty politics before, but it'd be a real shame if mere sound bytes start a backlash of buzz.

    I prefer Bloomberg's blurb that if we block the the mosque then the terrorists win.

    Ours should not be a nation where we tell our neighbors that they do not have the freedom to worship, merely because some people somewhere else (who are only loosely associated with our neighbors) did something bad.
    ... of course, during an election year - all bets might be off.

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  • 3. At 04:14am on 18 Aug 2010, KScurmudgeon wrote:

    I do understand Mr. Obama's statements, I always have. I find no duplicity in him, but a profound subtlety anchored in principle and in reality.

    I am white, Christian, and conservative in my principles. Maybe good sense is the dying characteristic around here.

    KScurmudgeon
    in Republican Kansas

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  • 4. At 04:21am on 18 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    You can apologize for President Obama's poltical gaffs all you like Mr. Mardell, it won't convince anyone who isn't already convinced. You are preaching to a choir that is dwindling in numbers.

    Obama has a penchant for putting his foot in his mouth. Then he backpedals revealing what many of us know and knew all along, that deep down he is and has the instincts of a politician. The Harvard Law School veneer can't cover up what he learned in the wards of Chicago or the streets of Honolulu.

    He really didn't need to get involved in this, he should have stuck to the economy which should be job one for him. In fact job one through job fifty for him. With an election coming up in two and a half months, the economy is flagging to the point where even his own economists can't pretend anynmore that there is a robust recovery. He's also losing two wars America should be winning.

    Is building a Mosque near ground zero near where the World Trade Center used to stand legal. I don't think many Americans doubt that it is. But is it a smart thing to do, is it an affront to most Americans? Yes it is an affront and most Americans abhor it.

    Islam is at war with itself around the world and lives in a state of uneasy peace with the majority of citizens in America. As a religion it is tolerated so long as it does not violate the civil and human rights of people including family members whether by what its practicioners consider religious law or custom. For instance we do not tolerate child marriages nor female circumcision. Revenge killings will bring prison, even the death penalty. As a political movement, Islam is not acceptable to Americans and Sharia law will never find its way on to American statutes the way it is invading the UK.

    The World Trade Center was attacked not once by twice by Moslem extremists. There is an instinct to label many Moslems as terrorists in the US and to be suspicious of them. The proof? When the Oklahoma City bombing occurred, many Americans including people in the government at first believed it was the work of Islamic terrorists. The aftermath of 9-11 resulted in an outpouring of anger against Moslems by other Americans.

    When the subject of terrorism comes up, most Moslems in American will condemn it but there almost always seems to be a "but" which invariably results in a discussion about Israel and America's unwavering and unrestrained support for it. That is a fact of life Moslems and President Obama will have to accept whether they like it or not, the overwhelming majority of Amercans support Israel 100%. Any argument about it which in any way equivocates about terrorism is unacceptable to most Americans. And it makes no sense. Iraq invading Kuwait, Iran sending Hezbollah to take over Lebanon, the Taleban in Afghanistan and Pakistan have nothing to do with Israel and would have happened even if Israel didn't exist. This stupid argument so many Moslems throw up at everything only incites contempt for them and a suspicion that deep down there is some terrorist in all of them. While this is of course absurd, it does not change the fact that most Americans do not want to see an Islamic cultural center or Mosque built near the site of the World Trade Center which has become something of an American shrine to the victims. If they were smart, the Moslems would drop it and move on to other things. They don't need it and they don't need the added resentment and hatred it will foster. No good can come of it. And the President of the United States should drop the whole think like a hot potato and leave it to others to decide what is to be done about it.

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  • 5. At 04:22am on 18 Aug 2010, afraidofheights wrote:

    What on earth was President Obama thinking? Did his advisors actually tell him to go “Pro Ground Zero mosque” with 90 days until the midterms when Democrats are about to get sliced up like a Hibachi Steak at Benihana?

    Did someone on his team point to Iran and said, “Don’t worry Mr. President, we can win with 32% of the vote, Ahmadinejad did it, so let’s go pro Ground Zero mosque today?”

    This article satirizes the whole mess.

    http://www.dailygoat.com/?p=2653

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  • 6. At 04:32am on 18 Aug 2010, AdrianoG wrote:

    I am sorry but yet again, this is another bias opinion on the matter. Firstly whether or not Barack Obama is condoning the building of the mosque near Ground Zero, the point of the matter is that it is an unsavoury act to do so.
    Mark Mardell, you wrote: "On the revitalised right, it is an unspoken assumption that "American" means conservative, white and Christian... You don't have to be all of these to belong, but you have to behave as though you were."
    "The trouble is that in these febrile times, there is no chance of that: the right immediately leapt on his remarks and portrayed them as un-American. Those planning the mosque, within an Islamic cultural centre inside a tall building, say it is a monument to peace and they want a memorial to the victims of the attacks inside."
    These are horrible assumptions. No one is claiming that to be an American in culture means white and Christian and Blacks and Jews have contibuted largely and continue to do so. Hoping that one does his research, a poll suggested that 61 percent of Americans believed that Muslims had the right to build mosques in line with the constitution; but the majority dont support it at that sight because it is a sensitive area to many New Yorkers. If Muslim New Yorkers truly respect the sensitivities of the families like they say they do, then they would respect the wishes of many New Yorkers and back down from building it at that site!

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  • 7. At 04:46am on 18 Aug 2010, Peter NZ wrote:

    I have to say I am a little disappointed by this.
    The associations of all people of a religion with a crime is to me a violation of what I admire America most for. The question should be whether you let the terrorists dictate your behaviour, and block the mosque, or let your principles and constitution drive your behaviour and allow it.
    In some ways this shows the big weakness of democracy.
    I saw this in Australia over the boat people where moral standpoints are changed for popularism. The same happened in NZ over land rights and positive discrimination. Perhaps that is democracy at work.
    With respect to the NY mosque I think you should either allow it, which I would support (but not my country), or be honest and say you are barring only because they are muslim in which case why bar only this mosque. Surely all mosque's are muslim?

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  • 8. At 04:46am on 18 Aug 2010, WhitewaterOregon wrote:

    Whether one is an atheist or a believer of any stripe, it would seem that now, if ever, would be a good time to light a candle for the President of the United States. I fear for his life.

    Were we to lose him, many on the right now engaged in round-the-clock demonization and Fox News vituperation would soon regret the enormity of a loss, which they now so recklessly court. I am old enough to remember the deaths of John, Martin and Bobby. That is not a nightmare any sane person would wish our country to return to. But that is where I think Rupert Murdoch's machine is taking us. That is where hate speech and media manipulations inevitably lead. It only takes one crazy to hear that siren song.

    Think! We are in two wars, we are still in an economic crisis, seldom has our nation needed thoughtful, dispassionate cool thinking more. Yet, we have an entire political party rabidly focused on how to "destroy his presidency" to the exclusion of just about everything else. It starts at the top of that party and it rolls right down to the mire of the New Jersey amusement park inviting folks to throw baseballs at a racist caricature of the president.

    "Febrile" does not begin to quantify the hysteria and ill will being whipped up against this one good man by big money conservatives and the corporations they run like Philip Morris and Metropolitan Life, which provided the seed money to launch the "Astro-turf" (fake grassroots) Tea Party. The constant rank appeals to racism don't just happen by accident. It is a tried and true technique of those whose real goal is to profit by dividing the American people.

    We need to declare a night to light a candle for the President's safety and success. Just one candle in the window, but seen in millions of homes across our nation. It would be a silent witness to all the ranters and hysterics that there are still those who put their country over this kind of hate and unreason.

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  • 9. At 06:01am on 18 Aug 2010, Curt Carpenter wrote:

    I thought the President's position was measured, precise, and entirely commendable. Also that he did the right thing in expressing it: he has once again come down on the side of what I believe are fundamental American values. (I'm not at all sure that "wisdom" is one of those.)

    For contrast, imagine how President George W. Bush would have responded to this issue. Some country would have had to be invaded (so that The Homeland might be made safe). And given his administration's general befuddlement, that country might well have been Manhattan Island. We might right now be watching CNN coverage of cruise missiles slamming into Times Square and the 82nd Airborne parachuting with full equipment into central park. Mission Accomplished!

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  • 10. At 06:02am on 18 Aug 2010, Dan wrote:

    A coward would have kept his head down, and said nothing about the matter. Obama is trying to live up to his oath of office, and be the president of all the americans. It may be a fools quest, but I would thank him for trying.
    By the way, what would a respectfull distance be? 3 blocks away, 4, 10, 50? I would like to see all major, and minor faiths take a stand in the area of the former world trade center. This attack was not one of one religion against a country, or an other religion. We all know this. To act otherwise is the true desiration of the site where so many innocents died.
    Conservitives bent on using this issue, and others to fearmonger, and hatemonger thier nominees into office, only shows how morally bankrupt they truely are. What are thier policy proposals? What are thier plans if elected? They have none. The only thing I hear from them is empty rehtoric aimed at fanning the flames of hate, and fear. Hoping for an emotional responce from those who would be blinded by such. Isn't that what we decry the religious extreemists for doing? This we do not need in America here, and now.

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  • 11. At 06:37am on 18 Aug 2010, KScurmudgeon wrote:

    4. At 04:21am on 18 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    "You can apologize for President Obama's poltical gaffs all you like Mr. Mardell, it won't convince anyone who isn't already convinced. You are preaching to a choir that is dwindling in numbers.

    Obama has a penchant for putting his foot in his mouth. ..."

    Any objective person understands exactly what the President said, both times on this issue - and where he stands.

    It is you and the committed opposition who claim his foot is in his mouth every time he opens his mouth - you struggle to find the shoe leather. In this you have foregone any appearance of objectivity, in favor of pandering to the zenophobia of delusionists.

    How can you paint a third of the world's people with the brush of terrorism, and keep a straight face? This attack on Islam is a falsehood, and you know it. You serve America poorly when you use your abilities to pour fuel on this patent untruth to inflame the fear of the ignorant.

    Does it feel good to shake your fist before the bonfire?

    KScurmudgeon

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  • 12. At 06:38am on 18 Aug 2010, KScurmudgeon wrote:

    At number 10. What Dan said.

    KScurmudgeon

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  • 13. At 06:48am on 18 Aug 2010, Nigel wrote:

    This is utterly disgusting. To think that even in the 21st century a President needs to convince Americans that racial and religious prejudice is bad (and it seems to be hurting him) - is really deplorable.

    Timothy McVeigh claimed to be a Christian. Would anyone be protesting if someone were proposing to build a church across the street from the site of the former Murrah federal building in Oklahoma City? No. Why? Because they're Christian. Opposition to the mosque, and the rhetoric that goes along with it, implies Islam is a lesser religion, that it has no place in America, and that ALL Muslims are terrorists. The ONLY reason there is any opposition to this is because the people proposing it are Muslim. This shows quite clearly that the opposition is motivated by racism and religious hatred - and those motivations are identical to the motivations terrorists themselves. Aside from that, it would clearly be unconstitutional to prevent private citizens from building what they want on private property so long as it complies with local zoning laws and regulations.

    These people rail against "big government," and then they turn around and imply that the government should squash the plans of private citizens to do as they please within the law? If these protesters were to move to Iran or North Korea, they would find their attitudes very much at home.

    I'm glad Obama stood up for common sense and the defense of people's freedom. It is time more Americans did the same.

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  • 14. At 07:00am on 18 Aug 2010, Desmond1948 wrote:

    MArcuAureliusII ("the Roman Emperor who said "Let them hate,so long as they fear' can be summarized as follows:
    1. President Obama should not remind people of a profoundly core part of the US Constitution... a principle that I am sure he would be the first to express outrage at if it were contravened. In short, a hypocritical observation.
    2. Islam is a political movement... Clearly an absurd point. Islam is a religion, like Christianity. It of course exploited by political radicals, but so have most other religions. In short, deliberate dissembling, and inherently inconsistent.
    3. People assume it is muslims who are terrorists, that's why they first thought the Oklahoma bombing was Muslim. The point is that is was NOT a muslim, but a radical American terrorist who bombed the Federal Buildings, so the argument is again specious and self-contradictory.
    4. The rest of his points are rambling assumptions..."the overwhelming majority of Amercans support Israel 100%"..based on what statistics?

    The real point here is that everyone has their basic belief sets, and are either consciously or unconsciously, selective in their use of 'facts' to support their prejudice...we just can't help ourselves!

    However, if you believe that a primary role of a true Statesman is to remind us of our principles, then Obama was doing the right thing...and a clarification of intent does NOT equate to backpedalling.

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  • 15. At 07:15am on 18 Aug 2010, SangerM wrote:

    Mr. Mardell, one thing I've learned during the past 30+ years of living and travelling in and through Europe is that most Europeans--even educated, well traveled Europeans-- don't really understand the United States or its people as well as they think they do. Your essay, while provocative and somewhat insightful, is more proof of that. I understand you've only so much space to write in, and that your home audience probably knows less than you about my country--which lets you skim over important subtleties; however, I feel you would better serve both British citizens and other non-Americans by avoiding the easy categorizations you like so much. The "left," the President's "enemies," the "right," and so on. Your writing is full of simplistic labels that do not in any way reflect the true diversity of the American political landscape, nor the complexity of our political environment. Your observations are a child's primer of American life.
    As for the issue at hand, the most basic fact of political life (and everything is political in some sense here), is that perception is reality. President Obama has shown time and again that he really doesn't understand the American people, nor that, regardless of the truth or validity of his convictions, he should just stay out of some conversations. Many Americans do not believe President Obama sees himself as American First and as a black man second (there's a fair bit of evidence to support this notion); many Americans do not believe that President Obama believes in America First and the rest of the world second (I tend to disagree with that one); and a lot of Americans (and this last does include me) believe President Obama has no real understanding of some very basic American personality traits.
    For example, almost every person I've spoken with about the Nobel peace prize fiasco believes President Obama should have refused the prize--that it was a slap in the face to the United States by a gaggle of interfering old-Europe busybodies. Almost every person I've spoken with thinks the President was wrong to get involved in the police-professor racial issue last year, and that his beer-in-the-garden meeting was just silly. Most people I've spoken with believe the President nominated and his rubber-stamp congress confirmed a hateful anti-American Supreme Court Justice who will do more to divide this country than Bork ever would have done. There's a lot more, but...
    Last, every single person I've spoken with so far (and many I've just overheard talking) thinks the President is a callous egoistic nitwit (or words to that effect) for getting involved in the issue of the Mosque near Ground Zero. The facts do not matter, the law does not matter, the truth does not matter. While it is true that many of us question Muslim goals, most of us do firmly believe in the right to practice religion here as one sees fit. The right to practice is not, however, the major issue here, as has been pointed out so well in other comments.
    For me it comes down to this: Regardless of what anyone outside the area thinks, if that mosque and education center is offensive to the majority of families and people who survived 9/11, then it should not be built there. I believe it is simply despicable for that insult to be forced on people who do not want it--and who have good reasons to feel that way--salt in the wound, so to speak. More important, as long as the United States is at war with an enemy who attacked us in the name of Islam, I believe most Americans will continue to distrust any Muslim who doesn't denounce and repudiate all of the hateful, evil acts done in the name of Allah. Few non-Muslim Americans buy into that 'religion of peace' rhetoric; and I still remember the picture published a few years back of a Muslim protestor in Europe holding a sign that said "Europe is a cancer, Islam is the answer." Not very peaceful sounding to me....
    In any event, If Muslims want peace in America, and to be accepted as Americans without qualification, they need to be seen taking sides against the evil men who've supposedly perverted their religion of peace. Until that happens, most Americans are unlikely to change their minds about Islam, and most of us will not want to see a mosque anywhere near Ground Zero. And we don't want to hear jack about it from a President we're not all that sure of.
    And that, sir, has nothing to do with the Left, the Right, or anyone's color.

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  • 16. At 07:57am on 18 Aug 2010, Dennis Dey wrote:

    Why build a mosque at Ground Zero? The approximately 3000 who died were, for the most part, not Moslems. They were killed by Islamic fanaticism. Rather than insist on building a mosque at that site, Islamic institutions should contribute towards building an all-faith memorial at the site.

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  • 17. At 08:26am on 18 Aug 2010, Umer wrote:

    The mosque debate is exposing the lack of basic knowledge about Islam in the 'Western' world. As an example, one gentlement is making the following point:

    "Islam is at war with itself around the world and lives in a state of uneasy peace with the majority of citizens in America. As a religion it is tolerated so long as it does not violate the civil and human rights of people including family members whether by what its practicioners consider religious law or custom. For instance we do not tolerate child marriages nor female circumcision. Revenge killings will bring prison, even the death penalty. As a political movement, Islam is not acceptable to Americans and Sharia law will never find its way on to American statutes the way it is invading the UK."

    Child marraiges: In the US we have a children having active sexual relations and even having babies across the country - a legal contract somehow makes things 'wrong'? Furthermore, the incident of child marriage is prevalent across various religious communities (including Christian) in the world (there is more to the world than Western Europe and the USA).

    female circumcision: There is nothing in Islamic belief that promotes this idea. Some cultures do this - but that is cultrul - and again members of other faiths also have the same practice.

    Revenge killing: Not at all a part of Islam. Islam supports a clear judicial process based upon proof and even when found guilty the victim or the family are encouraged (not required) to forgive.

    There are many such instances of clear violation of Islamic beliefs which keep appearing in the press and unfortunatley from religious and secular leadership in the US about Islam. Go to India, go to Africa or even look at Europe and better to look at ourselves here in the USA.

    Sexual slavery, treenage pregnancy, single mothers struggling while the fathers are AWOL, homelessness in the richest economices on the globe, child abuse by clergy, infidelity by conservative religious figures. Are these American values? No! but these are Americans partaking in theses activiites from different religious and ethnics stripes.

    The US is sliding into and economic downfall and if we are to keep the US strong and prosperous we cannot be led away by politically or religiously motivated divisive behavior that only makes us weak as a country.

    Last comment on the mosque 'issue', as I undersand that building has been used as a prayer area for many years by the Muslim community. How the future unfolds I am not sure, it is upto the patriotic Americans who are building the project to decide how they want to proceed, and I hope and pray that they do not back down from un-American and flatly ignorant pronouncements by anyone.

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  • 18. At 08:33am on 18 Aug 2010, magnificentpolarbear wrote:

    But they are NOT building a mosque at ground zero. The way some people are talking you'd think it was going to be built on the actual site of the foot prints of the 2 world trade centres rather than convert a disused building a couple of blocks away into an Islamcic Cultural Centre that a small part of which will be a mosquw.

    Yes its pretty close but from the maps I have seen there is no direct view from the proposed Islamios Centre to the ground zero, let alone the memorial part of the site.

    Why is that those that demand 'small' government really want 'big' government to step in?

    And why is that those who profess religious freesom really only mean it for their religion and no one elses?.

    Last time I looked Jesus was a prophet of Islam. A point that christians tend to forget.

    As to the President hasn't he just pointed out the constitutional rights for freedom of religious expression. I thought one of his duties was to defend the constitution. Seams to me thats what he was doing.

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  • 19. At 09:03am on 18 Aug 2010, PartTimeDon wrote:

    Ref#~4 MAII
    "Is building a Mosque near ground zero near where the World Trade Center used to stand legal. I don't think many Americans doubt that it is. But is it a smart thing to do, is it an affront to most Americans? Yes it is an affront and most Americans abhor it."
    __________________
    Why are you affronted? Can you explain this in a way that doesn't falsely portray mainstream Islam as and innocent Muslims and tainted with guilt by association to 9-11? No? Thought not.

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  • 20. At 09:16am on 18 Aug 2010, PartTimeDon wrote:

    How about America acts in the maner it likes to think of itself, stands up and say "Hey Bin Laden, this is our response to you and your violence. We embrace Islam as a non-violent religion. These guys are Americans. They're with us, not you. How d'you like them apples?"
    That might even go a decent distance to winning hearts and minds in the Middle East.
    The right's grasping this as an issue might win applause from those who are already predisposed to think in terms of "them and us", but I suspect it will be seen for what it is by a great many - a cynical attempt to ostracise (and so discriminate against) the few in order to win the approval of the many.

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  • 21. At 09:27am on 18 Aug 2010, PartTimeDon wrote:

    On the revitalised right, it is an unspoken assumption that "American" means conservative, white and Christian... You don't have to be all of these to belong, but you have to behave as though you were.
    ____________
    At the risk of being moderated:
    Perhaps conservative white Christians would do well to reflect that (possibly exceptng those directly involved) 9-11 was probably harder on American Muslims than on Christians. I addition to having to deal with the same shock and loss and national upheaval, they have since had to deal with the suspicion and in some cases unguarded blame of their fellow Americans.
    How about christian America gives a little bit back to those who may just have suffered more?

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  • 22. At 09:42am on 18 Aug 2010, what me worry wrote:

    if i remember correctly, Mr. Obama skipped the annual prayer breakfast but then hosts a Ramadan diner.
    the first family hasn't been reported attending any church in Washington on any regular basis although he was supposed to be a member of one Chicago for twenty years???

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  • 23. At 09:58am on 18 Aug 2010, Akage wrote:

    Why not use this property to build a center where everyone, regardless of their beliefs, can practice? People of all faiths died in the Twin Towers that day. It seems disrespectful to just designate the area around it to serve believers of one religion.

    Considering that those that caused 9/11 were radical Muslims, it also seems to be in poor taste to build a mosque so close to that area, especially with this event still so fresh in peoples' minds. It would be as if a US entrepreneur purchased the land where the A-bomb fell in Hiroshima, Japan & decided to built a McDonalds there. Not all Americans during WWII thought that bombing Japan was the right thing to do, yet, the US government decided to do it. Does that mean that it would be acceptable for the entrepreneur to build there simply because the US government's action, at the time, did not represent the wishes of all its people?

    I don't think that most Americans have a problem with Muslims building a mosque - they're welcome to worship their faith in the US. But, I think most Americans feel that it would be in poor taste for Muslims to build a mosque when it was the actions of several radical believers of their faith who caused 9/11.

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  • 24. At 10:36am on 18 Aug 2010, Brian848 wrote:

    It is notable that "ground zero" is a shrine. What are shrines for? To make money! Just look a Lourdes. Real New Yorkers are not upset about the mosque -- it will add another stop and T shirt, baseball cap, ground zero rubble selling opportunity to the great 9/11 tour experience. You will need extra parking spaces so the tour buses can offer "camera opportunities" so real Americans can photograph those Mooselems in funny clothes....

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  • 25. At 10:37am on 18 Aug 2010, Martijn wrote:

    It is amazing to see how the American right in its lust for power (bought and paid for by corporate capitalism) doesn't hesitate to rape and violate the very constitution which it claims to hold so dear. If all muslims are terrorists, then so are all christians, and indeed all jews if one considers the constant refusal of Israel to adhere to UN resolutions. If only the "founding fathers" of the US of A had had the wisdom to ban all religions instead of allowing them all... (JK, of course, but the selfrighteousness of these so-called christians is enough to put any decent human being off religion completely.)

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  • 26. At 10:40am on 18 Aug 2010, The Patriot wrote:

    In Theory building a Mosque so close to Ground Zero would be a victory for democracy. It would show that despite the immense pressure the Islamist terrorists put on the US & its core values these have turned out to be unshakeable. Only a tolerant, solid democracy would allow for a place of worship affiliated to people sharing a religion with these extremists to be built in such a sensitive place. Hats off to the USA for allowing this.

    The reality on the ground, however is different, people naturally still feel the pain of such an evil act. The correct thing would be for Muslims to understand the sensitivity of this area and choose an alternative location. This location is inappropriate for a mosque.

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  • 27. At 10:46am on 18 Aug 2010, crash wrote:

    As i have previously stated this exposes Obama to be the coward he is,if he had stood by what he said i would have no problem,i might not agree but i would respect it.The problem here is as soon as any one one disagrees he back pedals like an Italian battle tank.
    As for him concentrating on the economy i am glad he is distracted,may it it will slow down the rate he flushes my children's money down the commode on worthless policies most children could see were wrong.

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  • 28. At 10:50am on 18 Aug 2010, JB660 wrote:

    If we don't allow the mosque then we will provide jobs for Americans re-stabilize the economy. Also this will stop deadly climate change. These kinds of discussions show the world how breathtakingly intelligent Americans are. I'm so proud..when I don't drool on myself.

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  • 29. At 11:17am on 18 Aug 2010, John_From_Dublin wrote:

    15. At 07:15am on 18 Aug 2010, SangerM wrote:

    “Most people I've spoken with believe the President nominated and his rubber-stamp congress confirmed a hateful anti-American Supreme Court Justice who will do more to divide this country than Bork ever would have done.”

    I am assuming this refers to Elena Kagan as opposed to Sotomayor, since you do not name the person you refer to.

    However, according to the following link, Gallup found that 46% of the US supported her, 36% opposed and 18% had no opinion.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/141749/support-confirming-elena-kagan-remains-mid-40s.aspx

    This strongly implies to me what I already suspected, on the basis of the rest of your posting, ie that you are an extreme right-winger and opponent of Obama, and that consequently most of the people you speak with are of a similar nature.

    For the record, she got 5 or 6 Rep votes in the Senate, so hardly a rubber stamp, and I don’t recall even the most extreme Rep Senator calling her hateful and anti-American, (though no doubt Fox and El Rushbo did.)

    I daresay you will consider these ‘simplistic labels’, but I would certainly consider them no more simplistic than your descriptions of Obama and Kagan.

    I don’t claim to ‘know’ what Americans think – though since respected pollsters have a generally good record at calling elections I am more inclined to trust them than anecdotal evidence - but I am always extremely dubious of those who confuse ‘what me and my friends who think like me think’ with ‘what America thinks’.

    “I feel you would better serve both British citizens and other non-Americans by avoiding the easy categorizations you like so much”/“Your writing is full of simplistic labels that do not in any way reflect the true diversity of the American political landscape, nor the complexity of our political environment”/“President Obama has shown time and again that he really doesn't understand the American people, nor that, regardless of the truth or validity of his convictions, he should just stay out of some conversations. Many Americans do not believe President Obama sees himself as American First and as a black man second”

    “Easy categorizations” and “simplistic labels”?

    Pot, kettle

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  • 30. At 11:21am on 18 Aug 2010, filthy macnasty wrote:


    It's pretty simple. Building a Mosque that Celebrates the deaths of +3k people is pretty insulting. Saying that it's for any other reason ignores hundreds of years of Islamic history. Conquer, build a mosque to celebrate it. Rinse, lather, repeat. Over and over again down through the centuries.

    'Stupid Americans don't even know when we're jabbing them in the eye'.

    We're not stupid and we know that's exactly why it's being done and how it's going to be sold around the world.

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  • 31. At 11:21am on 18 Aug 2010, John_From_Dublin wrote:

    26. At 10:40am on 18 Aug 2010, The Patriot wrote:

    "The reality on the ground, however is different, people naturally still feel the pain of such an evil act. The correct thing would be for Muslims to understand the sensitivity of this area and choose an alternative location. This location is inappropriate for a mosque."

    I understand there is another mosque within 3-4 blocks of Ground Zero, which has been there for years. Should that be closed down?

    There are also apparently shops, offices, strip clubs and sex shops within a couple of blocks of Ground Zero. Presumably they will have to go too?

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  • 32. At 11:26am on 18 Aug 2010, Amit wrote:

    Perhaps all these controversies could be toned down a bit by proposing to build a church, synagogue and a temple alongside the mosque in the same building and change its name from Islamic cultural center to something like "Multicultural peace center"!

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  • 33. At 11:26am on 18 Aug 2010, John_From_Dublin wrote:

    # 23 At 09:58am on 18 Aug 2010, Akage wrote:

    "Why not use this property to build a center where everyone, regardless of their beliefs, can practice? People of all faiths died in the Twin Towers that day. It seems disrespectful to just designate the area around it to serve believers of one religion."

    I understand there are all sorts of places of worship near Ground Zero, and of course throughout New York. Perhaps the government should require them all to throw open their doors to practitioners and services of all religions - and none? Or why start with NY - let the Govt insist that the Southern Baptists throw their doors open to Hindus, Buddhists and Atheists.

    Or is there something in the Constitution about the State not interfering with what people believe and how they practise those beliefs?

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  • 34. At 11:36am on 18 Aug 2010, TimHK wrote:

    For a country that is supposed to be the most advanced on Earth, the low level of civility and intellect that is clearly present sometimes ceases to amaze. This, to me, makes absolutely no sense;

    4. At 04:21am on 18 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    "This stupid argument so many Moslems throw up at everything only incites contempt for them and a suspicion that deep down there is some terrorist in all of them. If they were smart, the Moslems would drop it and move on to other things."

    Actually the whole hullabaloo surrounding this affair has to do with comments like these. Instead of dishing out labels such as "us" and "them", which only serves to further alienate a minority group, I think American Muslims deserve the respect that any other citizen of the country has. This is bigotry at its worst. Sad thing is, I bet this is the majority consensus in America.

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  • 35. At 11:44am on 18 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Europeans are just angry that Americans won't allow the US to go down the same pipe that will turn Europe into Eurabia. The delusional American left sees it as a matter of principle and tolerance, muddleheaded as usual. Saint Obama can do no wrong in their eyes. B But Amercia's tolerance has its limits no matter what the Constitution and law seem to say. The Moslems planning this Mosque or cultural center or whatever it is supposed to be are testing those limits. We'll see if they win or lose. I think public pressure will persuade them to change their mind especially if Americans march by the thousands in front of the site every day to protest it. That is their inalienable right too.

    Why do Americans associate Islam with terrorists and terrorism? Besides the point I made above about there always being a "but" when it comes to criticizing terrorists and rationalizing it because of America's support for Israel, the fact is that there is rarely if ever a day anymore when somewhere in the world Moslems terrorsts don't bomb civilians in an act of mass murder and show of contempt for civilization, usually in more than one place in a single day. That most or all of the victims are usually Moslems themselves but the Moslem world does not root out these people, these groups, eliminate them, universally loudly and endlessly condemn their ideology but accept it as a normal part of life speaks to the reason we see them that way. Were that to become a practice Moslem extremists attempted in the US, there would be a widespread and violent backlash IMO all over the US, a backlash the government would be powerless to stop. Sometimes I wonder if we aren't on the verge of it already. Small wonder many American Moslems are worried. Unlike in Britain, the choice between whether they are above all Americans or Moslems will decide their future acceptance as a community here. In the UK, being British is a lost cause even without Islam, Britain having ceded its national identity along with tis sovereignty to the EU superstate. Their pan European one worldish culture will eventually make British identity (which was never much to crow about in the first place) an anachronism within the next two to three generations. The process is already well under way.

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  • 36. At 11:47am on 18 Aug 2010, lawrenz_of_arabia wrote:

    I have been watching the reporting around this matter with interest as a UK ex-pat living in Riyadh.

    When it was first revealed that they wanted to build a mosque near the WTC site, many of my Saudi colleagues said at the time that it would be a gift for the American Right Wing and be seen by some as possibly being a little insensitive.

    They've been proven right so far.

    The comments made by Mark Williams, late of the so called Tea Party, along with Sarah Palin, Gingrich and others, simply seem to add to the belief many around the world have of the intolerance, ignorance and racism entrenched within the USA.

    Obama has certainly played the politician in his initial comments and then his further comments on the matter. But I support his stance on standing up for the constitution and abhor the 'destroy him at any costs', knee-jerking, bandwagon jumping of the Republicans and Fox "News".

    If we are talking about insensitivity, then isn't it insensitive to rebuild on the WTC site? Surely creating a garden of remembrance over the whole site would be better? But, no. It's prime real estate and money talks.

    I don't recall us in the UK stopping the Roman Catholic Church from building churches because of The Troubles in Ulster. Nor do I recall us boycotting American companies who had a big hand in helping fund-raise for the PIRA. As far as I can remember, we didn't stop a certain fast food chain with a golden arch logo opening premises despite the dubious links it had to fundraising for the PIRA.

    Yes, Sept 11th was an unspeakably barbaric act by terrorists and yes, it is right that Americans and the rest of the world should respect and honour those who perished. However, If the USA wants the rest of the world to continue to see it as some sort of 'beacon of freedom', it has a long way to go and much work to do. As it is right now, I think the sun is beginning to set on the USA's time in the spotlight, both economically and politically and people are looking eastwards....to less 'free-er' places.




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  • 37. At 12:04pm on 18 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    #34, I've got news for you Tommy Tim, from this American's and I think many other Americans' point of view, Britis are rapidly moving from the camp of "us" to the camp of "them."

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  • 38. At 12:19pm on 18 Aug 2010, mabelwhite wrote:

    I like this Voice publication on the Mosque topic.
    I am very glad that President Obama can stand up for American 'core common sense values', and differentiate between those and opinion.

    http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2010/08/dear_rest-of-am.php

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  • 39. At 12:19pm on 18 Aug 2010, HabitualHero wrote:

    I worry for the welfare of american Muslims. Many of the recent comments made by non-Muslim americans have been beyond wretched.

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  • 40. At 12:23pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    13. Nigel:

    "This is utterly disgusting. To think that even in the 21st century a President needs to convince Americans that racial and religious prejudice is bad (and it seems to be hurting him) - is really deplorable. "

    ****************

    This is precisely the reason why people are upset with President Obama. Contrary to Obama's statement about religious expression, most Americans know and accept that the builders of this center have a legal right to build it there. I repeat, Americans know the legal rights of the center.

    Thus, Americans did not, in fact, need a lecture on the law.

    One could assume immediately after his comments that he was talking about this center on this site. When Obama then refrained from taking a position on this particular center, he demonstrated that he was speaking about religious freedom of expression, in general, confirming that it was a lecture on freedom of expression. Gee, thanks, Mr. President. Who knew?

    Again, Americans are well aware of their rights of religious expression, especially the many Christians who have been battling to uphold their right to freedom of expression for the last decade.

    So, applaud the president for lecturing Americans about a right with which they are already familiar. While he's "teaching" Americans about the law, the parties involved in this center's debate are dialoguing and arguing and doing what people do to work through their issues. Good for them. Obama's off to the side, as usual.

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  • 41. At 12:30pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    10. Dan:

    "Conservitives bent on using this issue, and others to fearmonger, and hatemonger thier nominees into office, only shows how morally bankrupt they truely are"

    **************************
    But it's okay to highjack the center debate and turn it into a proxy fight against Conservatives? Or in others' cases, "rightwingers"?

    I can assure you the opposition to this center is not limited to your, personal, political enemies.

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  • 42. At 12:33pm on 18 Aug 2010, mabelwhite wrote:

    #37 Oh dear. I am certain that I don't want the teaparty or Fox News involved in United States foreign policy.

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  • 43. At 12:33pm on 18 Aug 2010, DF2 wrote:

    There is a sense of hypocrisy in the fact that the Muslim community claims that Islam is a religion of peace. Given that there are very enlightened individuals belonging to Islam as there is in any religion. However it is painfully clear that the radicals seemed to have to louder voice in Islam. Another point to note is that many of the extremists views stem from Madrassa's as the best place to find an extremist spreading hate would be in such institutions which they have pledged their life to. While ordinary Muslims would see it as a peace gesture; history shows that except for a very few outspoken clerics the majority tend towards the extremist way. I live in Sri Lanka and find that the extreme version of Islam is becoming more popular here with more females covering up unlike in the past. This trend has created a cultural conflict where it is no longer possible to talk to someone directly, rather you talk to a black veil. Again what is alarming is the increasing number of Muslims going this route and it makes people edgy as it is a alien concept to regional cultural norms, even among the historical Muslim population here. Those people building the mosque should be more sensitive to the sentiment of the land. What ever point of peace they are trying to prove is long lost in translation.

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  • 44. At 12:37pm on 18 Aug 2010, NikolaTesla wrote:

    Don't understand to commotion. The mosque will not be near Ground-Zero, there is a mosque closer already and it is hardly if at all visible from Ground-Zero after it's finished. To me it seems California is probably to near Ground-Zero for a new mosque.

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  • 45. At 12:38pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    34. TimHK:

    "Instead of dishing out labels such as "us" and "them", which only serves to further alienate a minority group, I think American Muslims deserve the respect that any other citizen of the country has. This is bigotry at its worst."

    ***********************
    Ah, the call for "respect". This is what many Americans are asking of the builders of this site, that they respect their feelings about this site.

    It's quite a role reversal. The center absolutely has the law on its side. But its builders are being asked to show respect for non-Muslims.

    By the way, labels "us" and "them" are just as unproductive when they're used against majority groups.

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  • 46. At 12:41pm on 18 Aug 2010, KZ122 wrote:

    30. At 11:21am on 18 Aug 2010, filthy macnasty wrote:

    "It's pretty simple. Building a Mosque that Celebrates the deaths of +3k people is pretty insulting. Saying that it's for any other reason ignores hundreds of years of Islamic history. Conquer, build a mosque to celebrate it. Rinse, lather, repeat. Over and over again down through the centuries."

    I wish other people understood this big picture, and how western values are being exploited to impose another culture. Instead, people look at this as a separate indiviual incident, and fail to extrpolate its effects. The initiative is called cordoba, giving insight to what lies in real intentions. "The pieces of a gun taken separately are not harmful." If i got it right, this is from a book called Reflection on the revolution in Europe. My point of view is not based on the book; it's just complemented by it.

    This hypocrisy, since the very people/countries funding these projects refuse (perhaps rightly) to give you what themsleves are asking for. There is nothing wrong in wanting to preserve one's identity and culture, albeit being open to other people, and this should be done transparently through laws.

    By the way i'm neither american nor european, and not western..

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  • 47. At 12:43pm on 18 Aug 2010, Porag wrote:

    i think president Obama did not have to make a comment about the Mosque. it was a decision from the local council. his comment can harm him and his party.

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  • 48. At 12:51pm on 18 Aug 2010, Bogdan wrote:

    Posters here really need to consider what the debate is about before posting their absurdities. At no point was this a debate about legality of the issue. It is not an issue of the first amendment or even zoning laws. It is the issue of motives and intolerance from the group that Americans are supposed to show tolerance towards. All the comments with old and rehashed arguments of small government, democracy, and parallels between violence in Christianity and islam sound infantile. Instead we should focus on why the "moderate muslims" have decided that it would be appropriate and not at all inciting and controversial to throw their religion in the face of those who have suffered personal loss largely because of that religion. Why this place? Are there not enough mosques, is New York to small? In other words muslims once again showed their arrogance, rigidity, and lack of assimilation into the western society.

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  • 49. At 1:05pm on 18 Aug 2010, GetMeOutOfHere wrote:

    Everyone one should have the right to practice their chosen religion, so the building a mosque shouldbe permitted, just wondering my so many Muslim countires don't allow the building of Christian churches ?

    It's all very well Muslims saying it is their right, as it is for other religions to build places of worship - would they feel the same about church building in Saudi Arabia ?

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  • 50. At 1:06pm on 18 Aug 2010, tiygs wrote:

    As an admirer of the US of America, since a shool boy learnig American history, sometimes I do wonder, in general, wether one of the worlds' biggest(if not th biggest) democracies can be trapped in its own philosophies of "innocent until proven guilty,freedom to worship what/whoever and the rights of propety

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  • 51. At 1:07pm on 18 Aug 2010, _marko wrote:

    To KZ122 #46

    So you're worried that Fox News viewers won't be able to integrate into American culture?

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  • 52. At 1:13pm on 18 Aug 2010, Rob wrote:

    Maybe the 9/11 victim's families should buy the adjoining building and turn it into a gay nightclub for the NYC gay community? I mean, dont homosexual Americans also have the right to build a gay nightclub anywhere its legal?

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  • 53. At 1:14pm on 18 Aug 2010, crash wrote:

    I believe if Obama had been in office on 911 we would have apologized to the world of Islam sent a couple of kajillion dollars to sooth their sensibilities.

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  • 54. At 1:23pm on 18 Aug 2010, AC wrote:

    What an opportunity.

    The mosque shouldn't be built near the ground zero site...it should be built ON the ground zero site.

    Think of what a powerful message that sends to those who would support the terrorists. Hearts and minds is the real war, hearts and minds.

    Perhaps some sort of compromise multi faith centre would do the trick because, you see- Islam did not call for or create the twin towers attrocity. Fundamentalists calling themselves Islamic did. There are nutters in any religion at the extremes of society. With hindsight the crusades were a bit of a mis guided action really, weren't they?

    Starve the extremists of the oxygen they need to breath- new members, draw the waiverers into the fold, the family, the american dream. Show them how understanding and reasonable you are, how no matter how great the challenge, you rise to it. If you can do that you can take the moral high ground, you will stop their recruitment for a generation, long enough to nip it in the bud and then 9/11 will only be remembered for the way a great nation responded so progressively to a misguided terrorist outrage.

    Banning the mosque will have the opposite effect. Hearts and minds people, hearts and minds.

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  • 55. At 1:24pm on 18 Aug 2010, The Toothbrush Man wrote:

    35. At 11:44am on 18 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    "Why do Americans associate Islam with terrorists and terrorism? "

    Never mind that. Why does MAII associate Britain with Islam ?

    Right now there's a nutcase Imam in a far away country preaching hatred of the US to a room of teenagers all with grudges against the US. And he's pointing to the US on a map of the world, saying :

    "Look at how they betray themselves. Look at how they betray their principles they say they hold so dear - but are forgotten when it best suits them. Look at their hatred of Islam. Look at their hatred of of us - and their love of our wealth."

    Rants from MAII, Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich (he's quite insane) and Hannity are gifts for the Islamic fundamentalists. Why can't they see that ?

    I would also challenge any right-wing American to say exactly why the terrorists flew the planes into the WYC ? The only thing I've heard is the usual "they hate freedom", "they hate the American way of life" or "they're jealous of us" and the like. But everybody seems ignorant as to WHY they hate the US so much. And it has nothing to do with Islam.

















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  • 56. At 1:30pm on 18 Aug 2010, John_From_Dublin wrote:

    # 48 Bogdan

    "absurdities"

    "intolerance"

    "old and rehashed arguments"

    "arrogance, rigidity"

    [These are Bogdan's descriptions of those he disagrees with, and/or of Muslims.]

    "Pot"

    "Kettle"

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  • 57. At 1:31pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    48. At 12:51pm on 18 Aug 2010, Bogdan wrote:
    Posters here really need to consider what the debate is about before posting their absurdities. At no point was this a debate about legality of the issue. It is not an issue of the first amendment or even zoning laws. It is the issue of motives and intolerance from the group that Americans are supposed to show tolerance towards. All the comments with old and rehashed arguments of small government, democracy, and parallels between violence in Christianity and islam sound infantile. Instead we should focus on why the "moderate muslims" have decided that it would be appropriate and not at all inciting and controversial to throw their religion in the face of those who have suffered personal loss largely because of that religion. Why this place? Are there not enough mosques, is New York to small? In other words muslims once again showed their arrogance, rigidity, and lack of assimilation into the western society. "
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Western society as defined by you oh great one.

    And sorry, you obviously need a lesson in American history and basic values.

    As proven by Focks News and various right wing hysterics - giving offence is not illegal under the laws of the US.

    That is what is meant by religious freedom as defined in the US constitution.

    The constitution does not for example say everyone has freedom of speech, provided they only say nice things.



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  • 58. At 1:32pm on 18 Aug 2010, The Toothbrush Man wrote:

    41. At 12:30pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    "But it's okay to highjack the center debate and turn it into a proxy fight against Conservatives? Or in others' cases, "rightwingers"?"

    Okaaay. So let's get this straight. Merely pointing out the anti-Islamic hatred the right-wing are whipping up means that you are "hijacking the debate" and turning it into a "fight against Conservatives".

    Has it occurred to that we're just pointing out how bad it is to whip up anti-Islamic hatred - and that it has nothing to do with left versus right politics ?

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  • 59. At 1:34pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    49. At 1:05pm on 18 Aug 2010, stephen lowery wrote:
    Everyone one should have the right to practice their chosen religion, so the building a mosque shouldbe permitted, just wondering my so many Muslim countires don't allow the building of Christian churches ?

    It's all very well Muslims saying it is their right, as it is for other religions to build places of worship - would they feel the same about church building in Saudi Arabia ?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    But Saudi Arabia isn't the US is it? And the US does not generally ask other countries what buildings it should allow on its own soil does it.

    Oh and the moslem slur is badly made. Visit the largest moslem country in the world and you will see plenty of churches.

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  • 60. At 1:38pm on 18 Aug 2010, The Toothbrush Man wrote:

    49. At 1:05pm on 18 Aug 2010, stephen lowery wrote:

    "just wondering my so many Muslim countires don't allow the building of Christian churches ?"

    This is another Newt Gingrich myth. There are in fact many, many Christian churches in many so-called "Muslim" countries. In fact, many of these countries display a tolerance of other faiths that many Western countries would do well to emulate.

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  • 61. At 1:41pm on 18 Aug 2010, The Toothbrush Man wrote:

    52. At 1:13pm on 18 Aug 2010, Rob wrote:

    "Maybe the 9/11 victim's families should buy the adjoining building and turn it into a gay nightclub for the NYC gay community? I mean, dont homosexual Americans also have the right to build a gay nightclub anywhere its legal?"

    They could. But then they could already one of the many strip clubs that are already closer to ground zero. Nobody seems to mind about these though.

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  • 62. At 1:42pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    40. At 12:23pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    13. Nigel:

    "This is utterly disgusting. To think that even in the 21st century a President needs to convince Americans that racial and religious prejudice is bad (and it seems to be hurting him) - is really deplorable. "

    ****************

    This is precisely the reason why people are upset with President Obama. Contrary to Obama's statement about religious expression, most Americans know and accept that the builders of this center have a legal right to build it there. I repeat, Americans know the legal rights of the center."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Not going by the blogs and comments here. Look at yourself and your curious views about the ME (simply consisting of Saudi Arabia), moslems etc.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Thus, Americans did not, in fact, need a lecture on the law."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    See above.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    One could assume immediately after his comments that he was talking about this center on this site. When Obama then refrained from taking a position on this particular center, he demonstrated that he was speaking about religious freedom of expression, in general, confirming that it was a lecture on freedom of expression. Gee, thanks, Mr. President. Who knew?"
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well not going by the right wing ranters, the "burn a koran a day" project, the assaults etc on moslems etc sounds like a few Americans need to know to keep the law.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Again, Americans are well aware of their rights of religious expression, especially the many Christians who have been battling to uphold their right to freedom of expression for the last decade. "
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------Battling to maintain their religion as it fades you mean. Christianity is dying in the US and not because of the constitution.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So, applaud the president for lecturing Americans about a right with which they are already familiar. While he's "teaching" Americans about the law, the parties involved in this center's debate are dialoguing and arguing and doing what people do to work through their issues. Good for them. Obama's off to the side, as usual.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So in Andrea's world it is not up to the President of the US to remind people of the constitution.

    Well that is an interesting view. The rest of humanity might have thought that this came with the job.

    Presumably she would prefer ranting nutters or anti-semetic publicity hounds to take on this duty?

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  • 63. At 1:44pm on 18 Aug 2010, Matt wrote:

    I wonder if anyone would care if instead of focusing on the religion of the people who allegedly crashed the planes into the WTC, they instead focussed on their ethnicity (Arab) or their nationality (Saudi).

    Personally I think they should 'build' it. I say 'build' because the building is actually already there, all that is being proposed is a change of use. I think they should build it because it exposes the biggots in US politics. One day the idiots who vote for them will realise what they are, and the more examples of their appalling behaviour the better.


    If the 'Majority' of US citizens are 'insulted' by a mosque being built in Manhattan (it's not actually ON the site of the WTC, it's a quarter of a mile away) do they also oppose mosques anywhere else? I suspect they do.

    Politicians are only giving their opinions because they want votes; it's nothing whatsoever to do with them, it's a decision for the local authority.

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  • 64. At 1:45pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    8. At 04:46am on 18 Aug 2010, WhitewaterOregon wrote:
    Whether one is an atheist or a believer of any stripe, it would seem that now, if ever, would be a good time to light a candle for the President of the United States. I fear for his life.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    iGood posting. The situation is reminiscent of the scene in Julius Caesar when he turns to the Soothsayer and reminds him the Ides of March have come.

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  • 65. At 1:48pm on 18 Aug 2010, PartTimeDon wrote:

    Ref# 45 AndreaNY
    "It's quite a role reversal. The center absolutely has the law on its side. But its builders are being asked to show respect for non-Muslims."
    _______________
    You realise that by asking for "respect" in not building an Islamic centre near ground zero, you are showing being unbelievably disrespectful to law-abiding Muslims.
    There is no respectful middle ground here because your demands are not reasonable. The centre is either built and you'll just have to lump it, or American Muslims constitutional rights are trampled on (a campaign to prevent this centre being built amounts to persecution on grounds of religious even if they have the law on their side).
    9/11 and ground zero will be a sore point for generations to come. But this episode is only a sore point for people who cannot distinguish between Islam and terrorism. This is their failing and not the fault of Islam or any of its law-abiding American followers. Proclaiming that Muslims should change their plans and behaviour while white christian America nurses its grief is divisive, exclusionary and narrow-minded.

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  • 66. At 1:55pm on 18 Aug 2010, PartTimeDon wrote:

    Ref 49 Stephen Lowry
    I thought the point of calling it the land of the free etc was that America was supposed to have a better system of laws and freedoms than places like Saudi.
    Are you suggesting that just having laws that are no worse than a glorified police state is now acceptable?

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  • 67. At 1:56pm on 18 Aug 2010, Vj wrote:

    US citizens have right to build a mosque in new york. However the palce and the time is not right to build a positive image of muslims. Mosque could waiti for few years and could be done in low key.

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  • 68. At 1:57pm on 18 Aug 2010, UKTexan wrote:

    Unlike Mr Mardell I can't forgive all Mr Obama's mistakes. These are not gaffes or foot in the mouth moments. This is what the man truly believes.

    I can guarantee it doesn't matter how many languages you speak if you stub your toe you will swear in your native tongue and it is the same with the first thing you say. How many times have you said something you wish you could take back. Not because it wasn't you believed but because you didn't want someone to hear what you believe.

    Whether it is redistribution of wealth or building a Mosque at Ground Zero. Listen carefully when he hasn't got a teleprompter in front of him that is when you will hear the real Obama.

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  • 69. At 1:58pm on 18 Aug 2010, Wannabeyankee wrote:

    Re#35 MAII:

    Much as it pains me, I actually agree with you. I am a British expat, living in the US. I am proud of my British heritage, MAII, but not so proud of where my country-of-birth is headed. Which is why my wife and I left the UK to live in the US. We did not wish to be part of a more-and-more Islamic-dominated, European superstate, based upon totally undemocratic, unelected principles.

    For the vast majority of my life, I was a bit of a "pinko" politically, but I have found myself swinging more and more to the right as our adopted country's political leader has shown himself to be a somewhat woolley thinker once in office. It also pains me to say that I think Hilary Rodham Clinton would have made a better president than this joker.

    The fact of the matter is the mosque project so close to "ground zero" is nothing short of a deliberate slap in the face for anyone associated with the 9/11 atrocity, irrespective of whether there is another mosque within 3-4 blocks. Anyone who does not realize this is floating on a cloud of la-la dust. How would these peaceful Islamists feel if we let them build their mosque, and then flew a 757 into it? Perhaps they then would realize themselves how damned selfish they had been!!

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  • 70. At 2:03pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    4. At 04:21am on 18 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    You can apologize for President Obama's poltical gaffs all you like Mr. Mardell, it won't convince anyone who isn't already convinced. You are preaching to a choir that is dwindling in numbers.

    Obama has a penchant for putting his foot in his mouth. Then he backpedals revealing what many of us know and knew all along, that deep down he is and has the instincts of a politician. The Harvard Law School veneer can't cover up what he learned in the wards of Chicago or the streets of Honolulu. "
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The wards of Chicago and the streets of Honolulu - is this part of a Woody Allen script?

    Hysterical. "Hi stranger where u from, we doan see your kind in these parts? I come from the streets of Honolulu (cue in mood music).

    Don't get me wrong I liked Hawaii 5-0.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    He really didn't need to get involved in this, he should have stuck to the economy which should be job one for him. In fact job one through job fifty for him. With an election coming up in two and a half months, the economy is flagging to the point where even his own economists can't pretend anynmore that there is a robust recovery. He's also losing two wars America should be winning."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You have always said it was winning? Wow is that Damascus I see in the distance.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Is building a Mosque near ground zero near where the World Trade Center used to stand legal. I don't think many Americans doubt that it is. But is it a smart thing to do, is it an affront to most Americans? Yes it is an affront and most Americans abhor it."
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Tough, bad luck.

    Many Americans are affronted by the radio right-wing hysterics, some Americans are offended by you.

    Ain't life difficult?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Islam is at war with itself around the world and lives in a state of uneasy peace with the majority of citizens in America. As a religion it is tolerated so long as it does not violate the civil and human rights of people including family members whether by what its practicioners consider religious law or custom. For instance we do not tolerate child marriages nor female circumcision. Revenge killings will bring prison, even the death penalty. As a political movement, Islam is not acceptable to Americans and Sharia law will never find its way on to American statutes the way it is invading the UK."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well America does have the world's biggest porn industry which savagely consumes women and children in large numbers so pot and kettle come to mind.

    And no country in the world allows FGM, care to name one and cite the law :)
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The World Trade Center was attacked not once by twice by Moslem extremists. There is an instinct to label many Moslems as terrorists in the US and to be suspicious of them. The proof? When the Oklahoma City bombing occurred, many Americans including people in the government at first believed it was the work of Islamic terrorists. The aftermath of 9-11 resulted in an outpouring of anger against Moslems by other Americans."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Agreed and there is a tendency to criticse the president and black people when they assert their rights?

    The proof? The incident a month ago when a black employee was accused by the right-wing ranters on Focks News etc of being "rascist", despite the fact her father had been lynched and she was in fact speaking up for a white family.

    Still she did not go the way of her own father, so progress I suppose.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------


    When the subject of terrorism comes up, most Moslems in American will condemn it but there almost always seems to be a "but" which invariably results in a discussion about Israel and America's unwavering and unrestrained support for it. That is a fact of life Moslems and President Obama will have to accept whether they like it or not, the overwhelming majority of Amercans support Israel 100%."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You think the US is under control by Israel? Does the US support any country 100%.

    Most countries only support themselves 100%.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Any argument about it which in any way equivocates about terrorism is unacceptable to most Americans. And it makes no sense. Iraq invading Kuwait, Iran sending Hezbollah to take over Lebanon, the Taleban in Afghanistan and Pakistan have nothing to do with Israel and would have happened even if Israel didn't exist. This stupid argument so many Moslems throw up at everything only incites contempt for them and a suspicion that deep down there is some terrorist in all of them. While this is of course absurd, it does not change the fact that most Americans do not want to see an Islamic cultural center or Mosque built near the site of the World Trade Center which has become something of an American shrine to the victims. If they were smart, the Moslems would drop it and move on to other things. They don't need it and they don't need the added resentment and hatred it will foster. No good can come of it. And the President of the United States should drop the whole think like a hot potato and leave it to others to decide what is to be done about it. "
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well yes baas! But sadly it is none of your business is it. It is the duty of the law enforcement officials (like the President) to enforce the constitution.

    I am earnestly not looking forward to seeing usual ragbag of anti-semites, right wing ranters battling the police.

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  • 71. At 2:10pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    52. At 1:13pm on 18 Aug 2010, Rob wrote:
    Maybe the 9/11 victim's families should buy the adjoining building and turn it into a gay nightclub for the NYC gay community? I mean, dont homosexual Americans also have the right to build a gay nightclub anywhere its legal?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    But they would be unwise to open one next to a Tea Party convention point

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  • 72. At 2:15pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    45. At 12:38pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    34. TimHK:

    "Instead of dishing out labels such as "us" and "them", which only serves to further alienate a minority group, I think American Muslims deserve the respect that any other citizen of the country has. This is bigotry at its worst."

    ***********************
    Ah, the call for "respect". This is what many Americans are asking of the builders of this site, that they respect their feelings about this site.

    It's quite a role reversal. The center absolutely has the law on its side. But its builders are being asked to show respect for non-Muslims.

    By the way, labels "us" and "them" are just as unproductive when they're used against majority groups."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Ah and when some Americans in the 19th century wanted jewish groups to "show respect" by not building Synagogues in a "christian" country - was that OK?

    Perhaps you might explain to Moslem Americans why their religion is of itself disrespectful?

    You are aware moslems died in the Twin Towers? Why should they not be respected exactly?

    Oh and just to make the point Islam is an American religion as much as any other - get used to it.

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  • 73. At 2:15pm on 18 Aug 2010, John_From_Dublin wrote:

    # 52 Rob wrote:

    "Maybe the 9/11 victim's families should buy the adjoining building and turn it into a gay nightclub for the NYC gay community? I mean, dont homosexual Americans also have the right to build a gay nightclub anywhere its legal?"

    To answer your second question - yes, AFAIK

    To answer the first - well, it would strike me as rather petty, and intended to insult - but if that's what they choose, the law is the law.

    Having said that, I rather suspect that some of the prominent Repubs against the community centre/mosque, notably S Palin, might not be so keen. Repubs don't seem all that keen on gay rights in general.

    [And for the record, while it isn't only Repubs who are opposing the project, they certainly seem to be leading the charge.

    As I pointed out earlier, GWB made a point of stating that Islam was a religion of peace and that Islam per se was not to blame for 9/11 – so clearly the modern Repubs have no time for limp-wristed liberal appeasers like GWB…)

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  • 74. At 2:22pm on 18 Aug 2010, John_From_Dublin wrote:

    63. At 1:44pm on 18 Aug 2010, Matt wrote:

    "If the 'Majority' of US citizens are 'insulted' by a mosque being built in Manhattan (it's not actually ON the site of the WTC, it's a quarter of a mile away) do they also oppose mosques anywhere else? I suspect they do."

    I have tried to get opponents to specify exactly how far from Ground Zero they would accept a mosque, given that there is apparently one a few blocks away already, but the silence was deafening, and I was accused of being petty, trivial etc etc

    (For the record, according to Wiki, while polls show a majority of Americans and New Yorkers opposed, they show a majority of people in Manhattan in favour.)

    Another point, which I have read but cannot find a link to at present. If what I read is true, there are prayer rooms in the Pentagon for Muslims, since – shock horror - some work there. Someone asked whether this is not also hallowed ground, since AFAIK people died there on 9/11...

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  • 75. At 2:23pm on 18 Aug 2010, Freeman wrote:

    "63. At 1:44pm on 18 Aug 2010, Matt wrote:
    I wonder if anyone would care if instead of focusing on the religion of the people who allegedly crashed the planes into the WTC, they instead focussed on their ethnicity (Arab) or their nationality (Saudi)."

    Just a wild stab in the dark but I imagine it is due to their religion being their motivation to attack the USA.

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  • 76. At 2:24pm on 18 Aug 2010, Freeman wrote:

    Simon21 & Colonel: IMHO you are in danger of becoming the MA2 of Europe and the ME respectively.

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  • 77. At 2:39pm on 18 Aug 2010, FhfWolfy wrote:

    I do not normally agree with the things that President Obama says, however, at least this once I completely agree with him. As distasteful as it is to build a Mosque so close to ground zero, at least one of that magnitude, they are still very much within their rights to do so. That is what makes countries like America great. I served two tours in Iraq and many more years aside fighting for what we believe in; The right to be FREE. Free to say what you want without being rebuked by law or the government. Free to worship, or not worship as you choose as long as you are doing no physical harm, and most importantly...The freedom to agree or disagree with our President without fear of reprisal. Good Job, Sir.

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  • 78. At 2:43pm on 18 Aug 2010, HabitualHero wrote:

    The number of Muslims killed by americans is vastly greater than the number of americans killed by Muslims. Show me one american who cares (or even knows) about that. There's no more ignorant, hypocritical, self-pitying and self-righteous people on earth.

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  • 79. At 2:43pm on 18 Aug 2010, kakaduck wrote:

    The Mosque is being built on private property, which in the US at least you are allowed to own and do what you want without obtaining "permission" from some government commissar. The idea that Muslims (or anyone else for that matter) has a right to do what they want with their own private property should be fundamental. This is what seperates us from the Communists.

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  • 80. At 2:51pm on 18 Aug 2010, jcarnold wrote:

    There is a Catholic church only a few blocks from the former site of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. Timothy McVeigh was Catholic. Nobody has, to my knowledge, objected to that religious building... In my view, this pretty much voids all opposition to the construction of the Mosque.

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  • 81. At 2:51pm on 18 Aug 2010, Redcloud wrote:

    I am baffled that a clutural centre, with a mosque inside it(I imagine many of the naysayers are picturing some kind of Mecca 2) to be built two blocks away - and that's two New York City blocks away - from Ground Zero can create such hysteria. What is so disheartening about this entire episode, the same issue that concerned many after 9/11, is that those who have no reservations about the plans are portrayed as 'the enemy'. Somehow, if you are not against these plans then you must be a supporter of radical islamists. I was under the impression from the words of the American national anthem that this was purpotedly the Land of the Free. 'You can have it in whatever colour you like as long as it is White and Christian'.

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  • 82. At 2:52pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    69. At 1:58pm on 18 Aug 2010, Wannabeyankee wrote:
    Re#35 MAII:

    Much as
    The fact of the matter is the mosque project so close to "ground zero" is nothing short of a deliberate slap in the face for anyone associated with the 9/11 atrocity,
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------Including those moslems who died in the twin towers in 9/11?

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  • 83. At 2:57pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    76. At 2:24pm on 18 Aug 2010, Freeman wrote:
    Simon21 & Colonel: IMHO you are in danger of becoming the MA2 of Europe and the ME respectively."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Except that I know what I am talking about and don't use early 20th century derived hysterical bigotry to defend my prejudices.

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  • 84. At 3:00pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    75. At 2:23pm on 18 Aug 2010, Freeman wrote:
    "63. At 1:44pm on 18 Aug 2010, Matt wrote:
    I wonder if anyone would care if instead of focusing on the religion of the people who allegedly crashed the planes into the WTC, they instead focussed on their ethnicity (Arab) or their nationality (Saudi)."

    Just a wild stab in the dark but I imagine it is due to their religion being their motivation to attack the USA."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Was it their motivation, not sure that's true? I heard it was about US interference in Saudi and the wider ME as much as anything else. And in any case does that matter?

    When a NI policeman is injured by someone defending the protestant religion does that condemn all protestants?

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  • 85. At 3:02pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    74. At 2:22pm on 18 Aug 2010, John_From_Dublin wrote:
    63. At 1:44pm on 18 Aug 2010, Matt wrote:

    "If the 'Majority' of US citizens are 'insulted' by a mosque being built in Manhattan (it's not actually ON the site of the WTC, it's a quarter of a mile away) do they also oppose mosques anywhere else? I suspect they do."

    I have tried to get opponents to specify exactly how far from Ground Zero they would accept a mosque, given that there is apparently one a few blocks away already, but the silence was deafening, and I was accused of being petty, trivial etc etc

    (For the record, according to Wiki, while polls show a majority of Americans and New Yorkers opposed, they show a majority of people in Manhattan in favour.)

    Another point, which I have read but cannot find a link to at present. If what I read is true, there are prayer rooms in the Pentagon for Muslims, since – shock horror - some work there. Someone asked whether this is not also hallowed ground, since AFAIK people died there on 9/11..."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    There are also prayer rooms at US airports, but it is foolish to expect rationality in a witch hunt.

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  • 86. At 3:11pm on 18 Aug 2010, evz_one wrote:

    This issue reveals the fundamental weaknesses of American politics and propensity towards mono cultural bigotry. Suggesting that this project be blocked or disallowed would be a catastrophic loss to anyone that values human rights and justice. The site has become symbolically significant to all people and building a Mosque near by only charges the site making it more compelling.

    The political attack of the President is another story but it seems obvious that he is simply trying to make educated and honest decisions while trying to avoid offending his colleagues that prefer alternative strategies for decision making.

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  • 87. At 3:14pm on 18 Aug 2010, The Toothbrush Man wrote:

    75. At 2:23pm on 18 Aug 2010, Freeman wrote:

    "Just a wild stab in the dark but I imagine it is due to their religion being their motivation to attack the USA."

    That's just the point ! Islam was NOT the motivation for 9/11. Indeed, it is remarkable how FEW Americans do know why they attacked the US. The best answers I have had are the woolly "because they hate us," "because they hate freedom", "because they are jealous of us", and so on. But nobody seems to know WHY they actually hate the US.

    Which is remarkable because they made suicide videos stating exactly why they did attack the US. [Hint - it was nothing to do with Islam.]



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  • 88. At 3:15pm on 18 Aug 2010, BluesBerry wrote:

    Mosque row exposes Obama on two sides, but that's only because he never parried. I wonder why? Was it better for him to be bloodied on this issue?
    The right portrayed Obama's comments as un-American.
    Since when is it un-American to express an opinion. Has it become the American-way to lie & spin in order to remain popular?
    Those planning the mosque say it is a monument to peace and they want a memorial to the victims of 9/11 inside. In my understanding, this is not a "mosque" as such; it is a community centre, being designed to welcome all religions in mutual respect and understanding. In my opinion, it's a very brave project for the Muslim community to undertake.
    It's exactly like like Nazis (i.e. Germans) building near a concentration camp or the Japanese setting up a cultural centre at Pearl Harbour. Well, isn't that what they have done?
    e.g. On March 22, 1933, a few weeks after Adolf Hitler had been appointed Reich Chancellor, a concentration camp for political prisoners was set up in Dachau. On April 29 1945, American troops liberated the survivors. The Memorial Site on the grounds of the former concentration camp was established in 1965.
    e.g. Sachsenhausen Memorial Site where the concentration camp used to be, is right in the town of Oranienburg.
    e.g. Newt Gingrich argued that “we would never accept the Japanese putting up a site next to Pearl Harbor.” Check Google Maps. At a quick glance you will find at least two Shinto shrines within walking distance of Pearl Harbour.
    I'm sure there are more that I have missed.
    What about John McCains’s statement during the campaign, Obama’s not a Muslim, "he's a decent family man". Are we to understand that only non-Muslims can be decent family men?
    Several Democrats fighting for their seats in Congress, including Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, should have been quick with their mouths to disclose the same type of history that I have (above); I guess disowning or keeping one's mouth shut is easier, less work, far more popular. In fact, why wasn’t Obama quick to open his own well-spoken mouth and defend himself? He was by no means establishing a precedent.

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  • 89. At 3:17pm on 18 Aug 2010, TimHK wrote:

    45 AndreaNY:

    "By the way, labels "us" and "them" are just as unproductive when they're used against majority groups."

    I think you've entirely missed my point here. It's actually to emphasise that these labels shouldn't even exist in the first place. Have all Americans overlooked the fact that this mosque is being built as a bastion of inter-faith understanding? Instead it's all been just about "mosque mosque mosque" meaning it must definitely be awful and insensitive. To think that this has been politicised and used as an issue to whip up a frenzy before mid-terms is a sad indictment of America's declining status in the world.

    No one denies the atrocities committed on 9/11 were not reprehensible, they were. But instead of an instant knee-jerk reaction to slam Muslims for this proposed plan, there should be a semblance of reconciliation among ALL Americans, Muslim or not, that works towards healing the rifts caused by that horrific day. This centre is a start. And if it's scrapped you can claim your moral victory, I'm sure Al-Qaeda will be doing much the same.

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  • 90. At 3:21pm on 18 Aug 2010, Bro_Winky wrote:

    I wonder if there would be such hysteria if a Catholic Church was being built near a children's playground. Would anyone consider that "insensitive" or "too soon"?

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  • 91. At 3:22pm on 18 Aug 2010, The Toothbrush Man wrote:

    85. At 3:02pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    "There are also prayer rooms at US airports, but it is foolish to expect rationality in a witch hunt."

    You're even allowed to carry guns in airports too.

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  • 92. At 3:39pm on 18 Aug 2010, BK wrote:

    Unfortunately, Mr. Obama seems to be unable to shake off his "community organizer" persona. He insists on getting involved in "street level" issues, such as, the "ground zero" mosque, the "Harvard racist-professor vs. the police action", the termination of the Black civil servant, and others. For this very reason he has earned the lable "Pretender in Chief." He has made it clear to the world that he is most comfortable and qualified dealing with street level, community issues, which he can reach out and "touch."
    Unfortunately, those are not attributes of a "world stateman." We had another such President in the past, who was a peanut farmer in Georgia, and demonstrated many of the same short-comings, many of which might be appropriate in a Georgia town-hall setting, throughout his brief stint in the White House; he now continues to attempt to fill the elder statesman role, quite badly by the way, well into his mid-80's.
    Hopefully, by age 51, Obama will be back in Cook County, rustling up dead-citizens and the alcoholic homeless to vote in local elections, and "organizing the community"...whatever that means.

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  • 93. At 3:40pm on 18 Aug 2010, Freeman wrote:

    #84 Simon21 "When a NI policeman is injured by someone defending the protestant religion does that condemn all protestants?"

    Not necessarily but my point was if a Protestant or Catholic gunman shot an NI officer, people would not be concerned that he was white and Irish...

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  • 94. At 3:43pm on 18 Aug 2010, Freeman wrote:

    #87 Toothbrush "Islam was NOT the motivation for 9/11."

    I think AQ would disagree with you. Crusading against the presence of infidel soldiers in the HOLY lands of Islam seems to be high on their list of priorities.

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  • 95. At 3:44pm on 18 Aug 2010, 407 ETR wrote:

    What is missing from the whole Mosque debate is that Islam has no tolerance whatsoever for other religions - conversion to Islam is their only stance - and further, Islam is encumbered with Sharia Law that is very specific: that women and children are subordinate (are chattels) to men, in law! Sharia Law is unconstitutional in the US, Canada, the UK & EC!
    Muslim women who are 'coerced' to abide by Sharia tribunal rulings in the West have their human rights first stripped by Sharia. We banned Sharia tribunals in Canada because of the abuse of women's basic human rights. Sharia tribunals must be banned in all Western democracies as all were signatories to the 1948 UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights: http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/ Sharia Law is anathema to fundemental human rights!

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  • 96. At 3:51pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    65. PartTimeDon:

    "You realise that by asking for "respect" in not building an Islamic centre near ground zero, you are showing being unbelievably disrespectful to law-abiding Muslims."

    ***************
    Respect is a two-way street. You are locked into a one-sided argument and can see only one group being disrespected.



    >>>>>>>>>

    89. TimHK:

    "But instead of an instant knee-jerk reaction to slam Muslims for this proposed plan, there should be a semblance of reconciliation among ALL Americans, Muslim or not, that works towards healing the rifts caused by that horrific day."

    *****************
    Their response is not "knee-jerk". You diminish the opposition to this center in claiming that it is.

    Whether you want to or not, whether you think it's valid or not, and whether you think the opponents are justified or not, they hold deeply felt emotions about this site.

    Asking for understanding of, and compassion for, their feelings is a completely legitimate request, especially in light of the many demands for "respect" and open-mindedness being made. Reconciliation will occur when all positions are aired and dealt with. It will never, ever occur if a group is silenced because some deem their position unworthy of debate. That's the surest way to keep the fire burning.

    And Muslim-Americans are not a protected class of citizen. If other Americans have a beef with them, they need to hear it and respond. They are no more exempt from criticism than, say, Christians or any other group. They have protected rights but they do not have protection from hearing what Americans think of their religion and culture.

    If you want to be a citizen of this country, then occasionally you'll get your you-know-what kicked in the war of words, and there's not a whole lot you can do about it.

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  • 97. At 3:54pm on 18 Aug 2010, FhfWolfy wrote:

    I hear a lot of hypocrisy in this thread...stunning I know. Everyone LOVES to bash America, according to many here we are racist, intolerant and warmongering...unlike lets say the British who are...oh wait. Britain taught the world how to build an empire, the won't even call a German Shepherd a German Shepherd because it was offensive in WW2, instead it is an Alsatian, and go down any back street in London for that WONDERFUL lack of racism towards Pakistanis. Have many of you bashing America even ever been there? I lived in the UK for many years and I am even married to an English woman and even SHE comments on the hypocrisy of many of these statements. Are we blowing the mosque out of proportion? Of course the MEDIA is because that is what THEY do, they HOPE to get people wound up because it sells. I feel the mosque would be better served by being somewhere else NOT because they are Muslim but out of sensitivity for the emotions felt by those who lost loved ones. People all over the world consider what they say when talking to folks. They avoid subjects like a great new pair of shoes they bought when talking to their friends who have lost their legs don't they? Its called C O N S I D E R A T I O N. If more people in the world had it...INCLUDING us in America the world would be a MUCH better place. So out of consideration they should at least discuss having the Mosque somewhere not so sensitive. Europe is all about politically correct speech and worrying about offending others, Teenage Mutant HERO Turtles for example...so why not now? Or is it just because its US and we are seen as viable targets.

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  • 98. At 3:55pm on 18 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    9/11 is my generation's Pearl Harbor. Legally, could a Japanese cultural center be built to overlook Pearl Harbor if it was on private property? Yes. Does Pearl Harbor have a Japanese cultural center overlooking the spot of the fallen today? Obviously not. Why put salt in the wound and make things unfinished business by never letting our wound heal?

    Its just plain wrong to build a Ground Zero Megamosque overlooking our hallowed ground where our fellow innocent countrymen and women, along with allies innocents, were murdered by Muslim radical terrorists.

    The developers were offered other sites to build, but they said no, they did not want to build it there. It is obvious why. All you have to do is look at the lead developer's comments he made about America after 9/11 and it tells you who he really is and what his objective is.

    Conquering the 'Great Satan' as some like to call us.

    A Ground Zero Megamosque would emphasize that they won and right where it hurts us most. Where our innocent fallen lay. I cannot think of a worse insult.

    9/11 was not only an attack on NYC, it was an attack on America, it was attack on the West, it was an attack on freedom and democracy, it was an attack on religion. We must make a stand for what matters or we lose everything.

    I have no problem with Muslims building mosques, but I am against building a Ground Zero Megamosque overlooking our fallen, as it will never let our wound heal...

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  • 99. At 4:03pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    74. John_From_Dublin:

    "I have tried to get opponents to specify exactly how far from Ground Zero they would accept a mosque, given that there is apparently one a few blocks away already, but the silence was deafening, and I was accused of being petty, trivial etc etc"

    ***************
    Actually, the word was "picayune". ;-)

    Would you really feel better if you got a demarcation line? Would you like latitude and longitude with that? Does it really matter? In the minds of the opponents it's "too close for comfort". Why not let them make their case and see whether they can defend it? Arguing about the exact physical boundary of hallowed ground misses the bigger point, IMHO.

    Arguing this like a lawyer on technicalities may sound reasoned and smart, but it's ultimately ineffective to write off their feelings when they're this deep and strong. Think more "marriage counseling" than legal trial. The center builders have already won the legal trial hands down. The emotional one they're not doing so well with.



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  • 100. At 4:09pm on 18 Aug 2010, Scott0962 wrote:

    If President Obama were as smart as his followers claim he is then when asked about the mosque he would have answered something along the lines of "That's a local matter, not a Federal one, and I'm not going to comment on it." The press would have howled, his critics would howled, his left wing supporters would have howled but none of them would have anything to grab hold of and if he'd stuck to that position the criticism would have quickly blown over and he'd have been in the clear.

    Instead he opened his mouth and got dragged deeper into the political morass of election year politics. A more experienced politician would have known better.

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  • 101. At 4:13pm on 18 Aug 2010, Scott0962 wrote:

    re. #91. At 3:22pm on 18 Aug 2010, The Toothbrush Man wrote:
    85. At 3:02pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    "There are also prayer rooms at US airports, but it is foolish to expect rationality in a witch hunt."

    You're even allowed to carry guns in airports too.

    ----------------

    Not without a permit and not past the security check points.

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  • 102. At 4:22pm on 18 Aug 2010, The Toothbrush Man wrote:

    94. At 3:43pm on 18 Aug 2010, Freeman wrote:

    "I think AQ would disagree with you. Crusading against the presence of infidel soldiers in the HOLY lands of Islam seems to be high on their list of priorities."

    Erm. You have just confirmed my point. They attacked the US because of the US presence in their own countries. This is indeed what AQ stated in their videos.

    Islam did not make them attack the US. This is nonsense.





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  • 103. At 4:28pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    100. At 4:09pm on 18 Aug 2010, Scott0962 wrote:
    If President Obama were as smart as his followers claim he is then when asked about the mosque he would have answered something along the lines of "That's a local matter, not a Federal one, and I'm not going to comment on it." The press would have howled, his critics would howled, his left wing supporters would have howled but none of them would have anything to grab hold of and if he'd stuck to that position the criticism would have quickly blown over and he'd have been in the clear.

    Instead he opened his mouth and got dragged deeper into the political morass of election year politics. A more experienced politician would have known better."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Oh so when he took his oath to defend the US constitution he should have crossed his fingers behind his back?

    Maybe he was taking his job seriously?

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  • 104. At 4:32pm on 18 Aug 2010, The Toothbrush Man wrote:

    98. At 3:55pm on 18 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    "9/11 is my generation's Pearl Harbor. Legally, could a Japanese cultural center be built to overlook Pearl Harbor if it was on private property? Yes. Does Pearl Harbor have a Japanese cultural center overlooking the spot of the fallen today?"

    But there are several Shinto shrines. And of course there are plenty of Christian churches in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

    "9/11 was not only an attack on NYC, it was an attack on America, it was attack on the West, it was an attack on freedom and democracy, it was an attack on religion."

    Well noooo. Not quite. It WAS and attack on America. It was at most a wake-up call for other Western countries. But it was not an attack on "freedom and democracy" - this is pure American patriotic jingoism. And no, it was not an attack on religion.

    AQ stated very clearly why they attacked the US.

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  • 105. At 4:34pm on 18 Aug 2010, The Toothbrush Man wrote:

    101. At 4:13pm on 18 Aug 2010, Scott0962 wrote:

    "Not without a permit and not past the security check points."

    So that's a "yes" then. You are allowed to carry guns in airports.

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  • 106. At 4:35pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    99. At 4:03pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    74. John_From_Dublin:

    "I have tried to get opponents to specify exactly how far from Ground Zero they would accept a mosque, given that there is apparently one a few blocks away already, but the silence was deafening, and I was accused of being petty, trivial etc etc"

    ***************
    Actually, the word was "picayune". ;-)

    Would you really feel better if you got a demarcation line? Would you like latitude and longitude with that? Does it really matter? In the minds of the opponents it's "too close for comfort". Why not let them make their case and see whether they can defend it? Arguing about the exact physical boundary of hallowed ground misses the bigger point, IMHO."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    How can they or anyone defend suspending the constitution in repsect to one group?

    You do not have the concept of "rights" do you. No one has to defend their "rights" under the constitution, they are inalienable no matter how abusive and racist the opposition.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Arguing this like a lawyer on technicalities may sound reasoned and smart, but it's ultimately ineffective to write off their feelings when they're this deep and strong. Think more "marriage counseling" than legal trial. The center builders have already won the legal trial hands down. The emotional one they're not doing so well with."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Irrelevant. US construction companies are not concerned with people's feelings but with the law. Construction companies in the US do not conduct publoic opinion surveys before accepting contracts and starting work.

    Indulging the ragbag of bigots etc here would simply encourage them to pursue their islamophobic agenda.

    Appeasing this sort of hysteria never gets you anywhere.




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  • 107. At 4:41pm on 18 Aug 2010, GetMeOutOfHere wrote:

    49. At 1:05pm on 18 Aug 2010, stephen lowery wrote:
    Everyone one should have the right to practice their chosen religion, so the building a mosque shouldbe permitted, just wondering my so many Muslim countires don't allow the building of Christian churches ?

    It's all very well Muslims saying it is their right, as it is for other religions to build places of worship - would they feel the same about church building in Saudi Arabia ?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    But Saudi Arabia isn't the US is it? And the US does not generally ask other countries what buildings it should allow on its own soil does it.

    Oh and the moslem slur is badly made. Visit the largest moslem country in the world and you will see plenty of churches.


    -------------------------------------------------

    That isn't the point I was making and by the way there are no churches in Saudi, although diplomats are negoiating for one to be built- wheter it will happen?

    The point I was trying to make was that Muslims living in traditionally non-Muslim countries benfit from freedom of religous belief. This religous freedom does not exist in many Muslim countries.

    In Pakistan there are some churhes - a few years ago these suffered a grenade attck,

    Many Muslims believe that if a Muslim converts to Christainity they should be put to death, no this is not just a small minority, this is their interpretion the Quaran. There was even a BBC documentary about this - don't think the Beeb made this up.

    If a Muslim marries a non-Muslim it is invariably the non Msulim who must convert.

    My whole point, which you seem to have missed, is that tolerance should be encouraged must work both ways.

    The words blind faith do come to mind.

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  • 108. At 4:44pm on 18 Aug 2010, Serge wrote:

    MUSLIM doest not equal TERRORIST
    The Aryan Republican Army
    American nazi Party
    Christian Identity
    KKK
    National Alliance
    Silent Brotherhood
    The Aryan Republican Army

    All of these are terrorist groups in the United States. The one thing that unites them is that they are all Christians. A Middle Eastern religion started in Bethlahem, Palestine. Jesus was an Arab born on the Arabian peninsula.

    The real point is that as a Christian and confirmed Catholic, know and believe that Muslims have the right to practive their religion where and when they want. Isn't that why the pilgrims came, or was it more for the freedom to persicute anyone who doesn't believe what they do. If you read the Koran and the Bible as I urge all Christians to do, you will see that they are more similar than they are dissimilar. Don't lie, cheat, steal, kill- its all the same. Plus, in the Christian Bible God asks for the judging left to him not us simple humans.

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  • 109. At 4:47pm on 18 Aug 2010, FhfWolfy wrote:

    What came first the chicken or the egg...wait thats been proven but my point is still valid! Crusades, England VS Muslims, North Africa pre and post WWII, yep you guessed it...England again. We are relative newcomers to interfering in the middle east lets ask England how THEY did it. If you think that the attacks are on America alone, forget what they say on their propaganda videos, you are sadly mistaken. I have spent time in the middle east and it isn't an attack on one country for a single countries transgressions it is attack on anyone NOT adhering to sharia. We just happen to be the best targets because of our status and ease of access not to mention the fact that we have not been flavor of the month in Europe since the end of the cold war. There is an old saying. "People in glass houses should not throw stones" we, meaning the US are not unfamiliar with flinging stones about but you would be dishonest if you said you didn't cast a few yourselves now and again. Instead of insta-bashing America help us FIX the problem. Someone mentioned "knee-jerk" reaction above well thats what the world seems to be in to all the sudden...something bad happens it MUST be Americas fault.

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  • 110. At 4:52pm on 18 Aug 2010, M Bergman wrote:

    The point isn't whether there "should" or "shouldn't" be a mosque in a certain location, it's whether Americans want to become as religiously and culturally intolerant and fanatical as the people we so proudly condemn, whether they be terrorists or people from "minority faiths". Being the majority has never been proof or insurance that one is "right." Judeo-Muslim-Christians have been running the Western world (and a good part of the Middle East) for a couple of millennia now. Judging by the state of affairs during that time, mainstream religions have done nothing to make us all better people or to put us on a higher road than the old pagans religions. Instead of sacrificing to the Gods, we sacrifice to the Profit... At the least the Gods were a spiritual concept. As far as I can see, mainstream religions have lead the West nowhere but to the worship of money and power. They are all tainted with innocent blood, whilst continuing to claim moral authority. No matter which mainstream faith chose to build there, the travesty would be the same in my book.

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  • 111. At 4:52pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    98. At 3:55pm on 18 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:
    9/11 is my generation's Pearl Harbor. "

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    How insulting and disrespectful can you be. Pearl Harbour began the Pacific war which saw hundreds of thousands killed from Darwin to Burma.

    Do be so offensive to those who fought and died in this conflict.

    A bunch of nutters flying into a skyscraper etc in no way compares to the IJ Airforce navy and army conquering the SP.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Legally, could a Japanese cultural center be built to overlook Pearl Harbor if it was on private property? Yes. Does Pearl Harbor have a Japanese cultural center overlooking the spot of the fallen today? Obviously not. Why put salt in the wound and make things unfinished business by never letting our wound heal?"
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hardly the point is it. Moslems were killed in 9/11 you don't seem able to get this do you. Look up the world killed and explain why you would so like to insult the relatives of these victims.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Its just plain wrong to build a Ground Zero Megamosque overlooking our hallowed ground where our fellow innocent countrymen and women, along with allies innocents, were murdered by Muslim radical terrorists."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So what, so were moslems? American indians were massacred by christians who built churces and towns on their graves?

    To blame everyone for the actions of some on the basis of religion is called blood guilt.

    It was used as an excuse to persecute jews who were all held responsible for the death of Christ.

    Eventually this belief merged into the ideology that saw the systematic slaughter of over 6 million jews etc.

    Innocent moslems are not responsible for 9/11 just as christians like you are not responsible for the Holocaust..
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The developers were offered other sites to build, but they said no, they did not want to build it there. It is obvious why. All you have to do is look at the lead developer's comments he made about America after 9/11 and it tells you who he really is and what his objective is.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Is this the developer who bent over backwards rto accomodate the wishes of bigots. Is this the developer who appointed a Rabbi to the mosque board

    Yes a rabbi look up what religion these people come from.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A Ground Zero Megamosque would emphasize that they won and right where it hurts us most. Where our innocent fallen lay. I cannot think of a worse insult"
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    If this mosque is stopped the terrorists will have won and people like you will have helped them.

    They will have shown the US to be the bigoted, racist anti-semetic country they claim it is.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    9/11 was not only an attack on NYC, it was an attack on America, it was attack on the West, it was an attack on freedom and democracy, it was an attack on religion. We must make a stand for what matters or we lose everything.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    By discriminating against moslems? By breaking the US constitution, which you hold in such contempt apparently.

    Incidently can black Americans build churches or worship centres where they like (according to law) or do they need special permission too?

    And no New York is not the West and the US is not the world.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    I have no problem with Muslims building mosques,"
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Apparently you do.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    "but I am against building a Ground Zero Megamosque overlooking our fallen, as it will never let our wound heal..."
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    I would really like you to explain to a moslem victim's family why you have such contempt for their suffering. Why you think their relative should be blamed for their own death.


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  • 112. At 4:53pm on 18 Aug 2010, ardaxon wrote:

    The BBC continues to employ reporters, such as Mark Mardell, who are unable, or unwilling, to seek the true thoughts of those Mardell so pejoratively dismisses. Such a dismissal is shoddy journalism, for journalism should seek to portray an accurate picture of both sides of an issue, not the biased opinion of one individual. Shame on you.

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  • 113. At 4:57pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    102. The Toothbrush Man:

    "They attacked the US because of the US presence in their own countries."

    ******************
    Can you provide the background of this opposition to a foreign presence? Is it rooted in anything in particular?

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  • 114. At 5:00pm on 18 Aug 2010, SangerM wrote:

    29. At 11:17am on 18 Aug 2010, John_From_Dublin wrote:

    "I am assuming this refers to Elena Kagan as opposed to Sotomayor, since you do not name the person you refer to."

    Yes, but more important, your comments about that and your reference to statistics is irrelevant. I didn't write 'All,' nor 'Most' Americans, I wrote 'most people I've spoken with.' I suspect that's too fine a distinction, given that both your comments about what I wrote and your ad hominem comments about my supposed (and wildly incorrect) political persuasion lack both finesse and distinction.

    John_From_Dublin also wrote: "This strongly implies to me what I already suspected, on the basis of the rest of your posting, ie that you are an extreme right-winger and opponent of Obama, and that consequently most of the people you speak with are of a similar nature."

    I normally don't dignify your sort of trivializing comments with a response; however, you've given me a chance to provide further evidence that most Europeans really do not understand the complexity and subtlety of the American political landscape (you are European, yes? You sound like one). In the past eight presidential elections, I voted as follows: '80 Democrat, '84 Republican, '88 Republican, '92 Democrat, '96 Democrat, '00 Independent, '04 Republican, '08 Republican. Though my reasons would likely be too complex for you to understand, had Hillary Clinton been the Democrat's candidate in '08, I would have voted for her instead of McCain--a main I admire and honor without qualification, but whom I voted for only because he was the lesser of the two evils. H. Clinton would (and may yet) be a good President, I am sure.

    John_From_Dublin also wrote: "I daresay you will consider these ‘simplistic labels’, but I would certainly consider them no more simplistic than your descriptions of Obama and Kagan.

    I was fairly careful to qualify what I believe and to distinguish between my beliefs and what I have heard from other people, or gathered from what I've read. For my part, I believe Kagan has a questionable appreciation of all parts of the American Constitution, and that she has already shown she is willing to demean or ostracize one group of Americans in support of people who share her own 'liberal' viewpoint. That she was confirmed by the Senate was a foregone conclusion, given that Democrats control Congress. As to the Republicans who voted for Kagen (like Lugar of Indiana and Snowe of Maine), they were surely playing to their own constituencies, since voting against Kagan wouldn't have made a difference. Same thing for Sen. Nelson (D) of Nebraska, who most likely felt comfortable voting against her because one vote wasn't going to matter. There is no doubt in my mind that if the Republicans could have stopped her nomination, the voting would have been very different.


    John_From_Dublin also wrote: “Easy categorizations” and “simplistic labels”? Pot, kettle


    And so in the end you chose to call names, but you wrote nothing that refuted or invalidated anything I wrote, and you avoided the main subjects at hand entirely, i.e., President Obama's comments about the mosque near Ground Zero and the wisdom/legality of it being built there. In the end your comments were just mental onanism, bringing nothing of value to the discussion.

    Thanks for validating my opinion that most Europeans really don't understand Americans very well at all. Really. ;-)

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  • 115. At 5:01pm on 18 Aug 2010, PartTimeDon wrote:

    Ref# 96 AndreaNY
    Respect is a two-way street. You are locked into a one-sided argument and can see only one group being disrespected.
    ________________
    Please explain why an American Islamic Community Centre would be disrespectful to you.
    As I said above any sensitivity is an issue between you and your prejudice.
    On the one-side I see a community of Muslims wanting to erect a building that will have little or no impact on anyone who doesn't want to be involved with it. On the other I see people who wont be affected in anyway by this building, but want to tell other people not to build it anyway. Which part of that is factually incorrect?
    This campaign is the 21st Century equivalent of a gang with pitchforks and torches. You have a chance here to show the world that America is a truly open and free country and instead you're giving every small minded bigot around the world who ever said the US was "The Great Satan" evidence that they might just be right.

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  • 116. At 5:04pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    107. At 4:41pm on 18 Aug 2010, stephen lowery wrote:
    49. At 1:05pm on 18 Aug 2010, stephen lowery wrote:
    Everyone one should have the right to practice their chosen religion, so the building a mosque shouldbe permitted, just wondering my so many Muslim countires don't allow the building of Christian churches ?

    It's all very well Muslims saying it is their right, as it is for other religions to build places of worship - would they feel the same about church building in Saudi Arabia ?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    But Saudi Arabia isn't the US is it? And the US does not generally ask other countries what buildings it should allow on its own soil does it.

    Oh and the moslem slur is badly made. Visit the largest moslem country in the world and you will see plenty of churches.


    -------------------------------------------------

    That isn't the point I was making and by the way there are no churches in Saudi, although diplomats are negoiating for one to be built- wheter it will happen?"
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Who cares? Why are you so obsessed by Saudi Arabia, a tiny country run as a "kingdom"

    The issue with Saudi is dictatorship and lack of democracy. They can build a thousand churches, but that alters nothing. And we support them unquestioningly

    North Korea allows no religious buildings, perhaps the US could use this country as an example? Or Myanamar?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    The point I was trying to make was that Muslims living in traditionally non-Muslim countries benfit from freedom of religous belief. This religous freedom does not exist in many Muslim countries.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Many, name them please. The biggest in Indonesia, Egypt and Bangladesh allow christian worship.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In Pakistan there are some churhes - a few years ago these suffered a grenade attck,

    Many Muslims believe that if a Muslim converts to Christainity they should be put to death, no this is not just a small minority, this is their interpretion the Quaran. There was even a BBC documentary about this - don't think the Beeb made this up."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Many christians seem to beleive that all moslems suffer from "blood guilt" including some who have posted here. So tolerance does not seem to go very far.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    If a Muslim marries a non-Muslim it is invariably the non Msulim who must convert."
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    really you give marriage counsel on a regular basis do you? That is not my experience. In at least three cases I know each partner abandoned religion.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    My whole point, which you seem to have missed, is that tolerance should be encouraged must work both ways.

    The words blind faith do come to mind."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    But you do not encourage tolerance by advocating intolerance

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  • 117. At 5:06pm on 18 Aug 2010, Scott0962 wrote:

    re. #87. At 3:14pm on 18 Aug 2010, The Toothbrush Man wrote:
    75. At 2:23pm on 18 Aug 2010, Freeman wrote:

    "Just a wild stab in the dark but I imagine it is due to their religion being their motivation to attack the USA."

    That's just the point ! Islam was NOT the motivation for 9/11. Indeed, it is remarkable how FEW Americans do know why they attacked the US. The best answers I have had are the woolly "because they hate us," "because they hate freedom", "because they are jealous of us", and so on. But nobody seems to know WHY they actually hate the US.

    Which is remarkable because they made suicide videos stating exactly why they did attack the US. [Hint - it was nothing to do with Islam.]
    -------------

    Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us? They don't hate in the name of religion, they just practice jihad for fun? I've heard the usual litany of how its our fault because we meddle in the Middle East but where were the jihadists when we were saving Muslims from genocide in Bosnia?

    No matter how they dress it up it's the same old evil our fathers fought against: a group of self-righteous zealots who won't be happy until everyone lives and thinks and even prays as they dictate and are perfectly willing to kill as many people as it takes in pursuit of that goal. Instead of Stukas now they use hijacked airliners or strap bombs to children and send them forth to become "martyrs".

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  • 118. At 5:14pm on 18 Aug 2010, GH1618 wrote:

    "Control the plot"? (from Mardell) In a democratic society, no president (or any other official) controls the plot. He said what he thought needed to be said, and people will make of it what they will. Some people will criticize him no matter what he does or does not do, so there is no point in worrying about what they might think. Others who might normally be considered Obama's allies are running for reelection, so will say what plays in their district. That's just politics as usual. The President should just move on and leave it to others to bicker about it.

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  • 119. At 5:17pm on 18 Aug 2010, Scott0962 wrote:

    re. #105. At 4:34pm on 18 Aug 2010, The Toothbrush Man wrote:
    101. At 4:13pm on 18 Aug 2010, Scott0962 wrote:

    "Not without a permit and not past the security check points."

    So that's a "yes" then. You are allowed to carry guns in airports.

    -------------

    For heaven's sake, don't you recognize when someone is pulling your leg?

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  • 120. At 5:19pm on 18 Aug 2010, Chip C wrote:

    Try either of these if you want to get an idea of why Americans of most stripes really would rather not see a mosque anywhere close to the World Trade Center.

    One is Columbine, Colorado, and the other is Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Both qualify as terrorist attacks on Americans, but by Americans. All four attackers were white, male, and presumably Christian or Jewish. It would appear that, by your reasoning, the families or religious fellowships to which any of those criminals belonged might build a church or memorial near the sites of their massacres without objection. This would be seriously incorrect.

    It is very likely they would face similar objections to those over the mosque because, even though they are not anything like Harris, Klebold, McVeigh, or Nichols, they are too closely associated with them for most folks to stomach.

    The reasons why no church or family of the offenders has tried to do such a thing are that they are ashamed to have been associated in any way with those people and they understand that such construction would be an affront to those who loved the people who died in those events.

    The question most Americans wonder is not whether it is legal or not. We are certain that it is legal. What most Americans, including Muslim Americans, wonder is why Feisal Abdul Rauf & co would want to remind us in such a large way that the people who carried out the attack were Muslim.

    We also want to know why, if he does not really want to say publicly what he believes about the propriety of building that mosque, the President bothered to say anything at all.

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  • 121. At 5:20pm on 18 Aug 2010, bobcarno wrote:

    My God!! We either HAVE religious freedom in this country or we do not! Who are we to pick and chose who can erect a mosque and where? The muslim community did not destroy the WTC, SOME muslims did. How we elected a black president is beyond me with all the racial, ethnic and religious hatred in the USA.

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  • 122. At 5:22pm on 18 Aug 2010, Eastvillage wrote:

    If anyone thinks that only the American "Right" is against this mosque, then you have no idea about Americans or our country.
    “They did it”. We know this because we are fighting them in a war.
    They did it.
    Killed 3000 Americans.
    They did it.
    As an American, I stand ready to fight Islam on all fronts and this includes that idiot Mosque.
    We have fought bitter battles in the past defending our constitution and country and we will fight this one, too.
    9/11 Terrorists aside, Islam is in fact a religion built on internal terror. A structure of domestic terror.

    Reasons:
    People who try to renounce the faith are literally murdered in many Islamic counties.
    Women are enslaved,, by barbarian dress codes.
    Women in Saudi Arabia have no rights except those granted by their slave masters, err, sorry Husbands or other family.
    Mutilation of female genitals.
    Girls attacked in Afghanistan, etc.
    Fatwahs, or Hits, put out on people who criticize Islam.
    Insistence on internal barbarian laws and rejection of democracy.

    Attempts too stifle Western Culture and Free Speech by trying to enact laws that make it a crime to criticize religion.
    This is already the case in Europe and sadly even Canada under the guise of Hate Speech.

    Know this: We really are the only game in town. And when you Europeans are getting your asses kicked yet again, we stand ready to help you fight back, when you all finally wake up. if it's not too late.





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  • 123. At 5:26pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    113. At 4:57pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    102. The Toothbrush Man:

    "They attacked the US because of the US presence in their own countries."

    ******************
    Can you provide the background of this opposition to a foreign presence? Is it rooted in anything in particular?"
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    No people generally love foriegn armies etc based in their countries. I mean the US is constantly asking other countries to occupy parts of the nation.


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  • 124. At 5:31pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    117. At 5:06pm on 18 Aug 2010, Scott0962 wrote:
    re. #87. At 3:14pm on 18 Aug 2010, The Toothbrush Man wrote:
    75. At 2:23pm on 18 Aug 2010, Freeman wrote:

    "Just a wild stab in the dark but I imagine it is due to their religion being their motivation to attack the USA."

    That's just the point ! Islam was NOT the motivation for 9/11. Indeed, it is remarkable how FEW Americans do know why they attacked the US. The best answers I have had are the woolly "because they hate us," "because they hate freedom", "because they are jealous of us", and so on. But nobody seems to know WHY they actually hate the US.

    Which is remarkable because they made suicide videos stating exactly why they did attack the US. [Hint - it was nothing to do with Islam.]
    -------------

    Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us? They don't hate in the name of religion, they just practice jihad for fun? I've heard the usual litany of how its our fault because we meddle in the Middle East but where were the jihadists when we were saving Muslims from genocide in Bosnia?"
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Sorry you are saying you know what motivated these people better than the people themselves?

    When a moslem does something it is always and only because of religion according to you?

    Does that apply to jews as well?

    All semites?

    Maybe you should meet a moslem one day if you can bear it.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    No matter how they dress it up it's the same old evil our fathers fought against: a group of self-righteous zealots who won't be happy until everyone lives and thinks and even prays as they dictate and are perfectly willing to kill as many people as it takes in pursuit of that goal. Instead of Stukas now they use hijacked airliners or strap bombs to children and send them forth to become "martyrs"."
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Don't put yourself in the same frame as those who fought WWII, show some respect.

    Go to a veterans meeting and say you feel that 2001-2010 is just like 1941-45.

    They will tell you to pull your head in.


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  • 125. At 5:39pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    114. At 5:00pm on 18 Aug 2010, SangerM wrote:
    29. At 11:17am on 18 Aug 2010, John_From_Dublin wrote:

    "I am assuming this refers to Elena Kagan as opposed to Sotomayor, since you do not name the person you refer to."

    Yes, but more important, your comments about that and your reference to statistics is irrelevant. I didn't write 'All,' nor 'Most' Americans, I wrote 'most people I've spoken with.' I suspect that's too fine a distinction, given that both your comments about what I wrote and your ad hominem comments about my supposed (and wildly incorrect) political persuasion lack both finesse and distinction.

    John_From_Dublin also wrote: "This strongly implies to me what I already suspected, on the basis of the rest of your posting, ie that you are an extreme right-winger and opponent of Obama, and that consequently most of the people you speak with are of a similar nature."

    I normally don't dignify your sort of trivializing comments with a response; however, you've given me a chance to provide further evidence that most Europeans really do not understand the complexity and subtlety of the American political landscape (you are European, yes? You sound like one). In the past eight presidential elections, I voted as follows: '80 Democrat, '84 Republican, '88 Republican, '92 Democrat, '96 Democrat, '00 Independent, '04 Republican, '08 Republican. Though my reasons would likely be too complex for you to understand, had Hillary Clinton been the Democrat's candidate in '08, I would have voted for her instead of McCain--a main I admire and honor without qualification, but whom I voted for only because he was the lesser of the two evils. H. Clinton would (and may yet) be a good President, I am sure."
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    You seem to think the democractic party is somehow a hotbed of liberal (as the proper use of that word) belief.

    Americans have 2 political parties Pete.

    Is that so Dud? Wot are they like?

    Well there's a Republican party which is like the Conservative party, and then there's the Democractic Party, which is like the Conservative party.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------



    John_From_Dublin also wrote: “Easy categorizations” and “simplistic labels”? Pot, kettle


    And so in the end you chose to call names, but you wrote nothing that refuted or invalidated anything I wrote, and you avoided the main subjects at hand entirely, i.e., President Obama's comments about the mosque near Ground Zero and the wisdom/legality of it being built there. In the end your comments were just mental onanism, bringing nothing of value to the discussion.

    Thanks for validating my opinion that most Europeans really don't understand Americans very well at all. Really. ;-)"
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Most Americans do not understand most Americans either do they :) This makes them different to most European countries!

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  • 126. At 5:41pm on 18 Aug 2010, The Toothbrush Man wrote:

    113. At 4:57pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    "Can you provide the background of this opposition to a foreign presence? Is it rooted in anything in particular?"

    The AQ opposition to the US presence in the US is rooted in the way in which the Royal families are kept in power with US patronage. It's a classic mass-uprising-against-the-priviledged-elite sort of revolution, not unlike the Soviet uprising. They use religious channels to coordinate - religous institutions being in everyday contact with the masses they are the ideal means to organise. Of course this means a heavy does of religion gets into the message as well.

    The stated aims of AQ are to remove the elite and replace them not with a democracy - but with an Islamic state, al la Iran.

    However, the dictatorial and concentrated powers of the elite, plus the sheer firepower (Western supplied weaponry), the secret police and informants can keep a tight lid on objectors.

    The West of course is after oil, plus the fear of more Irans popping up. There was also a fear that Western opinion would turn against our own governments propping up such regimes (one good atrocity and game over). Believe it or not, there was also a related fear that the Western public would sympathise with AQ and their "crusade". Of course, 9/11 blew away any chance of sympathy - a resounding home goal.

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  • 127. At 5:53pm on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    Who is patriotic who is not, it all depends on the room inside a community center.Does any one really know how big that room is in terms of sq ft? The americans fighting for ....sq feet. This is why muslims do not support democrats..In such times, they become conservatives..Its not about obama,stupids, its about the community center..He has changed the whole context of the debate. Its not as if he said some presidential comments about the community center, he said what the builders of community centers argue...Pointing to a fact..What was the whole point of uttering those useless words, to readily jump into something he has nothing to do..and if he was itching to say something, he should have said something new, for a change..Not, introducing by his arabic name when in egypt, and in usa, never even mentioning it, let alone defend it..Nice headache he has given to his muslim serfs on the eve of ramadan...it used to be that only israel used to give this kind of gift to muslims in ramadan, now the americans have isrealofied themselves..As far as nine eleven is concerned, not even george washington can come out of his grave and and say that the nine elvers attacked because they hate american freedoms or that their religon made them do it, those who did, and the who claims that he supported it, have clearly said why they did it..As far as the bold statement that islam is at war within itself is concerned, its all in the minds of people who are used to have static religon...Islam has always been and will always be at war within itself...At times, it gets violent, and others more passive, but this is how islam is preserved and evolved and remain in all sheres of muslim's life..Unlike chritistinty which had to be cut off from politics, economics and progress, because its basic priniciples, as applied by the church of both the sects and so many sub sects, are inversally proportion to development of mind, and soul and everything that involves these two things. When christianity was at its best, its civilization was its worse, when islam was its best, its civilization made progress..We have no fears of G-d or religon, the chritistians have..the atheiests living in west have, because they didnt become atheists through some mindful revelation, they became atheists or non religious in reaction to chritstianity...these are simply reactionaries, who react to things, in an amphibian way..ergo, the quick tilt of liberals against the community center..

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  • 128. At 5:57pm on 18 Aug 2010, strontiumdog wrote:

    RE #4
    Marcus,
    you quote "we do not tolerate child marriages nor female circumcision. Revenge killings will bring prison"
    Are you describing Islam or Christianity? Because throw in the death penalty for homosexuality and youve just described fiercly Christian Uganda. As for the majority of Americans are pro Israel, You honestly believe that most African Americans and Latino Americans are pro my country. Christianity and Islam are as bad as each other when it comes to extremism



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  • 129. At 6:00pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    122. At 5:22pm on 18 Aug 2010, Eastvillage wrote:
    If anyone thinks that only the American "Right" is against this mosque, then you have no idea about Americans or our country.
    “They did it”. We know this because we are fighting them in a war.
    They did it.
    Killed 3000 Americans.
    They did it."
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Who is "they" genius. The cybermen? Giant ants?
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------?
    As an American, I stand ready to fight Islam on all fronts and this includes that idiot Mosque.
    We have fought bitter battles in the past defending our constitution and country and we will fight this one, too."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That sounds like a call for terrorism

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  • 130. At 6:03pm on 18 Aug 2010, Matt wrote:

    75. At 2:23pm on 18 Aug 2010, Freeman wrote:

    "Just a wild stab in the dark but I imagine it is due to their religion being their motivation to attack the USA."


    No, it was the excuse. It was not the reason.

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  • 131. At 6:05pm on 18 Aug 2010, Echotheword wrote:

    President Obama statement was to clarify the First Amendment. He was separating his emotions from a business decision. Under our Constitition of United States, we are protected as citizens. Yes, as Americans we have evolved into this country of multiple different cultures, but isn't that the way Corporate groomed us to be? Diversity..Diversity...I remember all that training! Corporations brought over many engineers to work in their companies. Corporations hired all different cultures to work in our country with open arms. Now, when the chips are down, politicians are pointing fingers to selected groups?
    The Arabic word "Islam" means peace. They worship God like everyone here in the USA.
    "In fact it would not be a stretch of the imagination to say that if the founding fathers have relied on the polling data, the first amendment might not exist at all." Rev. Dr.C.Welton Gaddy quote.
    The Republicans will dub all commercials to fit their needs for election.
    If you take away the First Amendment, none of us will have the right to build a church.

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  • 132. At 6:06pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    120. At 5:19pm on 18 Aug 2010, Chip C wrote:


    The question most Americans wonder is not whether it is legal or not. We are certain that it is legal. What most Americans, including Muslim Americans, wonder is why Feisal Abdul Rauf & co would want to remind us in such a large way that the people who carried out the attack were Muslim. "
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Building a church reminds worshippers that according to the Gospels the jews killed christ. At Easter this gory little event is remembered in some detail.

    Is that your reasoning? Surely building a church anywhere near a jewish family or site is mortally offensive.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    What the organisers are tyring to do is prove the US stands by its musch touted rights and means what it says.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------


    We also want to know why, if he does not really want to say publicly what he believes about the propriety of building that mosque, the President bothered to say anything at all."
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    As the mayor of NY put it he needed to remind people of the Constitution. His job is to enforce it. He is President you see, he gave an oath.

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  • 133. At 6:10pm on 18 Aug 2010, FhfWolfy wrote:

    121. At 5:20pm on 18 Aug 2010, bobcarno wrote:

    My God!! We either HAVE religious freedom in this country or we do not! Who are we to pick and chose who can erect a mosque and where? The muslim community did not destroy the WTC, SOME muslims did. How we elected a black president is beyond me with all the racial, ethnic and religious hatred in the USA
    ___________________________________________________________________
    There is a difference that you are missing...you are free to practice your religion in the United States. That IS protected by the constitution but NO WHERE is it written that a state or federal entity MUST allow you to build a church WHERE and HOW you want. A religious building must follow the same exact legal rules and regulations as ANY OTHER building in the US. It has been decided that yes, it IS legal for them to build there and every one of us is resigned to allow them to but that DOESN'T stop us from trying to get them to VOLUNTARILY move it somewhere less sensitive. Oh and NEWS FLASH do not make it sound like bigotry and intolerance are purely American sins. Want to know the reason Obama was elected RACISM thats right but not the kind YOU are thinking of. How many times have YOU heard "Well at least he is black." They even made T-shirts with sayings like that on them. This ISN'T about Joe Muslim prior to 9/11 most people didn't even know something like Sharia law existed much less had reason to automatically mistrust them. This is about people feeling like they are being poked in the eye, building that Mosque there while LEGAL does not stop the feelings MANY in the WORLD have that it is similar to a gladiator placing his boot on the chest of a fallen foe. If a Muslim organization wanted to donate time and money in order to help create a park or sanctuary for people to reflect OUTSIDE of religion I doubt many would take issue.
    Bottom line, you know NOTHING about the hatred the world outside the US is capable of. "Let them eat cake" springs to mind because if you think WE are that way lord alone knows how long your sanity would survive if you have visited the streets of many of the countries I have visited and lived. Have you forgotten Apartheid? Aborigine Children being FORCED from their parents into Christian schools in Australia? The images of a peaceful protester lying in the streets in Tehran with her life ending? A tank in Tienanmen Square staring down a protester? Somalia and the 9 year olds being forced into militia to fight for Sharia or heck just for power grabs? Or the two girls lured back from Europe with the promises of forgiveness from their parents then STONED to death simply because their boyfriends weren't Muslim. Don't lecture ME about Racism, Religious tolerance until YOU have gotten out of your comfy life and seen it like many of us have. The grass is always greener but let me tell you on the other side of OUR fence much of the world, Europe excluded for our European friends is a weed strewn cesspit filled with snakes who would like NOTHING else but to bite you in the *&^!

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  • 134. At 6:15pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    126. At 5:41pm on 18 Aug 2010, The Toothbrush Man wrote:
    113. At 4:57pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    "Can you provide the background of this opposition to a foreign presence? Is it rooted in anything in particular?"

    The AQ opposition to the US presence in the US is rooted in the way in which the Royal families are kept in power with US patronage. It's a classic mass-uprising-against-the-priviledged-elite sort of revolution, not unlike the Soviet uprising. They use religious channels to coordinate - religous institutions being in everyday contact with the masses they are the ideal means to organise. Of course this means a heavy does of religion gets into the message as well."
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well said

    it cannot be stressed enough that the various royal families of the ME, the Dictators (Mubarak) are kept in power by the US and its allies.

    Iran, not in the Middle east, is a haven of democracy compared to such US "allies" as Saudi, the UAE, Kuwait, and Egypt which tortures and murders it own citizens with US equipment at a prodigious rate.

    Syria, supposedly an enemy of the US had US planes fly it in prisoners to torture! You couldn't make up this stuff.

    Yet look at whom the US elects to demonise?

    We should not be suprised for most the 19th and 20th centuries the US actively intervened to support dictatorships in LA.

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  • 135. At 6:15pm on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    Bush wasnt going to tell the americans, that reason the nine eleveners most of them saudi arabians, flew the planes into the financial head quarter ,and pentagon was in retaliation of american soldiers in saudiarabia, american government support to dicators in muslim countries..that ben laden, justified it so that americans would feel on their homeground, and to show the hypocracy of the american government..He went at extreme lenght to justify the 3000 civilian killed...which he copied right from american justification of millions of civilians due to american government and its military..He also said that this will show the true colors, and hypocracy of americans...that what they blame others for, and then starts wars or put sanctions, they do it themselves without blinking their eyes.

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  • 136. At 6:17pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    111. Simon21: Why not put all your respect for the US Constitution to good use? Go promote it in places where none exists. My goodness, if you were as good at finding the missing and abuse of rights that you identify in the US so frequently, what a job you could do in other countries uncovering them. You're a real pro when it comes to rights.


    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    115. PartTimeDon:

    "Please explain why an American Islamic Community Centre would be disrespectful to you. "

    **************
    I am not opposed to the center being built there because it is their right to build it wherever they want. I do support people's right to protest, however.

    People protest in the US all the time. I mentioned the protests of Wal-Marts, which devolved very quickly. Do gun control advocates deserve to be silenced? Does the fact that it is a "right" to bear arms being challenged automatically invalidate the challengers? That moral high ground gets kind of empty when the "right" being defended isn't a popular one, no? I also mentioned the confiscation of pencils that had an unacceptable Christian saying on them. No big protests there to protect that 2nd grader's right to religious free speech.

    My point is that protesting does not make one a denier of rights, nor does the fact that it is a right, guaranteed, make it untouchable territory. These arguments should not be used to silence opponents.

    Back to the emotions of the opponents...I do feel deeply for those who oppose it, and I believe they deserve to be heard. I have made it a point to try to understand the pain and betrayal they feel at the erection of something they believe is a testament to a faith that caused them irreparable harm.

    Islam is the face of 9/11 to them, whether it is the case or not, and Muslim-Americans have to deal with that. Stereotypes abound in the US. (White male rednecks, anyone?)

    I do wonder about the wisdom of erecting something that will be seen in other parts of the world as a conquest, even if it's just their spinning to do so. We can spin it here as well, i.e., that it's a tribute to our respect for religious freedom, etc., but I have little regard for those lessons that Americans love to teach others ("We're better! See how tolerant we are!").

    Suffice to say, I don't feel compelled to judge whether opponents' feelings are acceptable. I don't condemn them for their feelings. In effect, I am compassionate and understanding of them, and I respect their right to feel this way.

    And I am certainly not making it about Christians, Republicans rightwingers, Palin, etc., which is why I can keep my mind open about them.

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  • 137. At 6:23pm on 18 Aug 2010, Bro_Winky wrote:

    122. At 5:22pm on 18 Aug 2010, Eastvillage wrote:

    "As an American, I stand ready to fight Islam on all fronts and this includes that idiot Mosque.
    We have fought bitter battles in the past defending our constitution and country and we will fight this one, too."

    -----------------------------------------

    So you're going to defend your constitution by fighting against freedom of religion?

    Brilliant.

    -----------------------------------------

    "Know this: We really are the only game in town. And when you Europeans are getting your asses kicked yet again, we stand ready to help you fight back, when you all finally wake up. if it's not too late."

    --------------------------------

    Bit of a drama queen aren't we? Have fun in your bunker.


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  • 138. At 6:32pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    136. At 6:17pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    111. Simon21: Why not put all your respect for the US Constitution to good use? Go promote it in places where none exists. My goodness, if you were as good at finding the missing and abuse of rights that you identify in the US so frequently, what a job you could do in other countries uncovering them. You're a real pro when it comes to rights."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I have a better idea Andrea, why doesn't the US? If it thinks its constitution is so wonderful why not encourage other countries to adopt it, instead of giving guns to kings and dictators

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  • 139. At 6:32pm on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    The bottom line is, americans should wake up from their daydreaming catatonic like condition. The 9 yrs of constantly critisizing islamic countries in the worst way, they really started believing that they are better than the rest..Otherwise, its not the russians who sent its japanese citizens in camps during 2nd world war, it was actually usa who did it...its in their culture, their tradition and is their value...Comparing themselves to the countries they generously and routinely crtisizing to justify their own wrongdoing, doesnt make them any better, it makes them exactly like those they critisize..The people in burma generously point to american treatment of muslims both inside the country and outside, to justify their own government's atrocities..They end up always by saying, that unlike usa, they dont lie and go and invade other countries..ergo, better than usa...And since its a fact, I have no difficulty in agreeing to them.

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  • 140. At 6:32pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    126. The Toothbrush Man:

    "Of course this means a heavy does of religion gets into the message as well."

    *****************
    A very heavy dose. Religious channels to coordinate. The desire to create an Islamic state. (Never mind the billions spent by the Saudis for promotion.)

    That's an awful lot of religion that doesn't factor in.

    It's a bit like saying Christians really seek an authority figure and that it's not really about religion at all. If you try hard enough, you'll be able to remove the religious aspect of it.

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  • 141. At 6:34pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    133. At 6:10pm on 18 Aug 2010, FhfWolfy wrote:
    121. At 5:20pm on 18 Aug 2010, bobcarno wrote:

    My God!! We either HAVE religious freedom in this country or we do not! Who are we to pick and chose who can erect a mosque and where? The muslim community did not destroy the WTC, SOME muslims did. How we elected a black president is beyond me with all the racial, ethnic and religious hatred in the USA
    ___________________________________________________________________
    There is a difference that you are missing...you are free to practice your religion in the United States. That IS protected by the constitution but NO WHERE is it written that a state or federal entity MUST allow you to build a church WHERE and HOW you want."
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Yes it must provided you keep the laws.

    You should know your own country.

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  • 142. At 6:38pm on 18 Aug 2010, crash wrote:

    Simon21 I am assuming you must be of Arabic descent,all yous anti American hatred pours from your long winded diatribes.Nearly every one has stated they have no problem with a mosque being built but just not at this location,one suggestion maybe we let them build the mosque at the twin towers as long as we can build a cathedral along side the Masjid Al Hareem this would be more than fair.

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  • 143. At 6:40pm on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    I do wonder about the wisdom of erecting something that will be seen in other parts of the world as a conquest, even if it's just their spinning to do so.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Most of the world, didnt even know about it, until the president put it on the world's map. Most of the world really doesnt care which building structure is built where in usa, until the president announced it, and not clarifying that building is not near the scared ground, and is not a mosque..I hope the muslims dont make that strucure over there, and I hope they dont make any community center elsewhere as gov of ny suggests..If they are being discriminated, then they should ensure that they be discriminated...

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  • 144. At 6:41pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    136. At 6:17pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    111. Simon21: Why not put all your respect for the US Constitution to good use? Go promote it in places where none exists. My goodness, if you were as good at finding the missing and abuse of rights that you identify in the US so frequently, what a job you could do in other countries uncovering them. You're a real pro when it comes to rights.


    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    115. PartTimeDon:

    "Please explain why an American Islamic Community Centre would be disrespectful to you. "

    **************
    I am not opposed to the center being built there because it is their right to build it wherever they want. I do support people's right to protest, however.

    People protest in the US all the time. I mentioned the protests of Wal-Marts, which devolved very quickly. Do gun control advocates deserve to be silenced? Does the fact that it is a "right" to bear arms being challenged automatically invalidate the challengers? That moral high ground gets kind of empty when the "right" being defended isn't a popular one, no? I also mentioned the confiscation of pencils that had an unacceptable Christian saying on them. No big protests there to protect that 2nd grader's right to religious free speech.

    My point is that protesting does not make one a denier of rights, nor does the fact that it is a right, guaranteed, make it untouchable territory. These arguments should not be used to silence opponents.

    Back to the emotions of the opponents...I do feel deeply for those who oppose it, and I believe they deserve to be heard. I have made it a point to try to understand the pain and betrayal they feel at the erection of something they believe is a testament to a faith that caused them irreparable harm.

    Islam is the face of 9/11 to them, whether it is the case or not, and Muslim-Americans have to deal with that. Stereotypes abound in the US. (White male rednecks, anyone?)

    I do wonder about the wisdom of erecting something that will be seen in other parts of the world as a conquest, even if it's just their spinning to do so. We can spin it here as well, i.e., that it's a tribute to our respect for religious freedom, etc., but I have little regard for those lessons that Americans love to teach others ("We're better! See how tolerant we are!").

    Suffice to say, I don't feel compelled to judge whether opponents' feelings are acceptable. I don't condemn them for their feelings. In effect, I am compassionate and understanding of them, and I respect their right to feel this way.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And are you compassionate with some of the hysterical misstatements and plain lies opponents of the scheme have been putting forth?

    And the point here is that these protestors are asking for their fellow Americans to be denied their constitutional rights because they do not like their religion. Which given gthe number of moslems who died in the Twin Towers is a very evil thing.

    Can't quite see why compassion is needed in this context.

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  • 145. At 6:48pm on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    Religious freedom in usa is like freedom of the women, "thus far and no more.... Or "You there, not you, yes, you, the one standing left to the right of the the man can eat the popcorn but the rest cannot as we dont like the way you chew...Not our fault, but your as you dont chew the way we do".

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  • 146. At 6:50pm on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    Nearly every one has stated they have no problem with a mosque being built but just not at this location,one suggestion maybe we let them build the mosque at the twin towers as long as we can build a cathedral along side the Masjid Al Hareem this would be more than fair.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    But the issue is about this community center, not anyother community center or mosque.

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  • 147. At 6:52pm on 18 Aug 2010, FhfWolfy wrote:

    Iran, not in the Middle east, is a haven of democracy compared to such US "allies" as Saudi, the UAE, Kuwait, and Egypt which tortures and murders it own citizens with US equipment at a prodigious rate.

    ____________________________________________________________________

    Iran, AH yes wonderful Iran...Where people are killed with rocks for the smallest offense PROVIDED they are female. Oh what an opportunity for females to bask in the glow of the sun as rocks make majestic soaring arcs towards their head. But HEY at least they are buried up to the neck and not just to the waist like men. I guess thats a form of womans rights... Oh and um since when is a dictatorship, because thats what Iran REALLY is, a democracy. Oh yes, they do well hiding behind the words of democracy with all the requisite checks and balances but since no one bothers with them its a dictatorship. Oh and by the way Kuwait is a VERY tolerant country and quite nice I might add. One of the only Mid East countries I have been to where looking over your shoulder wasn't a national pastime. I am guessing you are Iranian and anti-western because of the 4 places you listed only Iran isn't at least somewhat tolerant of western society.

    And please do tell what is this US provided equipment you speak of? EXPLORE people get out of your countries and actually LIVE what you read in the papers it will do WONDERS for a proper perspective.

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  • 148. At 6:59pm on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    They can wage wars in muslim countries, pointing readily to the number of muslim who died, and when it comes to building a community center, they forget all about those dead muslims....

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  • 149. At 7:02pm on 18 Aug 2010, FhfWolfy wrote:

    Religious freedom in usa is like freedom of the women, "thus far and no more.... Or "You there, not you, yes, you, the one standing left to the right of the the man can eat the popcorn but the rest cannot as we dont like the way you chew...Not our fault, but your as you dont chew the way we do".

    _______________________________________________________________
    you are absolutely right about one thing..."Thus far and no more" for religious freedom. You are allowed to practice religion but if your religion tells you to throw jagged rocks at a womans face we draw the line.
    Women are ABSOLUTELY free in this country, as free as any man to make of themselves what they choose. They can be Governors or even the Secretary of State... They are free to work as hard or as little as they want and achieve ANY goal they set out for. This goes for EVERYONE. Male, Female, Black, White...Purple...it doesn't matter. If you try your hardest and you are skilled and smart enough you can achieve ANYTHING in this country. From Welfare recipient to President you only have yourself as a barrier.

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  • 150. At 7:03pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    144. Simon21: "Can't quite see why compassion is needed in this context."

    ****************
    No, you wouldn't. For you it's all about the rights, upholding the US Constitution and Bill of Rights, freedom of religous expression, the fight against intolerance and injustice, right?

    Have to admit it is hard to take someone's defense of rights seriously when that same person cannot defend a woman's right to leave her home on her own.


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  • 151. At 7:03pm on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    Iran, AH yes wonderful Iran...Where people are killed with rocks for the smallest offense PROVIDED they are female.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    usa, the place where patriotism is judged on some sq feet of land..where elections will be won and lost all because of this little room...Where dead people are used to create wars and are used to discriminate against one religious group..

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  • 152. At 7:04pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    145. colonelartist:

    "Religious freedom in usa is like freedom of the women, "

    *************
    Equally protected. Like its women, equal.

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  • 153. At 7:13pm on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    you are absolutely right about one thing..."Thus far and no more" for religious freedom. You are allowed to practice religion but if your religion tells you to throw jagged rocks at a womans face we draw the line.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    That which has not happened has yet not happened....so dont make premature claims..That which is happening is what matters..

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  • 154. At 7:19pm on 18 Aug 2010, FhfWolfy wrote:

    Ahh Colonel trying so hard to equate barbarity in Iran to America. It's alright, we understand that if it had been your Husband, Father, Wife, Sister, Mother murdered by religious fanatics at least YOU would have had the tolerance to forgive them with a hug. Think what you like about America I don't mind, REALLY. Its what I fought for.

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  • 155. At 7:25pm on 18 Aug 2010, FhfWolfy wrote:

    Hmmm Colonel I think you need to get out more. "That which has not happened has yet not happened" It has happened and happens all too often in many middle eastern countries. Women stoned to death on a near whim.
    Religious protection as with anything must have a limit. If your religion is peaceful and harms no one you are free to worship frogs with pink umbrella's should you choose, HOWEVER, the minute your religion tells you to hurt someone else as part of it you are going to get shut down and rightly so.

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  • 156. At 7:51pm on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    And back to the few sq feet room....If justifying your own behaviour by critisizing others, is what you call war, then allow me to inform you, I have fought mother of all war...

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  • 157. At 8:00pm on 18 Aug 2010, strontiumdog wrote:

    re#149
    " This goes for EVERYONE. Male, Female, Black, White...Purple...it doesn't matter. If you try your hardest and you are skilled and smart enough you can achieve ANYTHING in this country. From Welfare recipient to President you only have yourself as a barrier."

    hmmmm.... So you mean an Arab American devoted Muslim could become President of the USA, If he/she tried hard enough, don't buy that one somehow

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  • 158. At 8:31pm on 18 Aug 2010, PartTimeDon wrote:

    Ref#136 AndreaNY
    My point is that protesting does not make one a denier of rights, nor does the fact that it is a right, guaranteed, make it untouchable territory. These arguments should not be used to silence opponents.
    _____________
    I actually agree, but I also believe that such protests should be deplored if the basis for the protest is based on differences in race, religion, sex or sexual preference.
    Anyone who feels that this building is a symbol of some kind of victory linked to 9/11 is grossly misinformed. That kind of justification for such protests has parallels with "they come over here and take our jobs ", "they hoard all the money", etc. It should be met with reason and education, not exploited to cook up a political storm or tug at the emotions of the masses.

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  • 159. At 9:11pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    158. PartTimeDon:

    "I actually agree, but I also believe that such protests should be deplored if the basis for the protest is based on differences in race, religion, sex or sexual preference."

    **********************
    And I agree up to a point. It is why I found the fact that blacks voted for Obama because of his race and women for Hillary to be racist and sexist. A very parochial view, I admit.

    Here, however, I'm inclined to listen to their views, as the incident involved devastation and trauma never before experienced here. Americans were specifically targeted as an "enemy". These victims were brutally killed. Because I do consider it an of war, I am giving them a "victim" status and respecting their need to handle this in their own way. I take a similar stance with respect to Jews and the Holocaust, blacks and slavery and Middle Easterners and the US war there. I don't expect any of the victims of violence to be deprived of their right to be angry and hurt.

    And as I've mentioned, Muslim-Americans should hear what Americans are saying and, more importantly, thinking about them -- that is, if they are serious about being American. The smartest quote I've read was from a Muslim-American who said that every new group was treated poorly and they were simply the latest. In a way, he understood that the new kid on the block takes the heat but then becomes just another kid on the block.

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  • 160. At 9:15pm on 18 Aug 2010, John_From_Dublin wrote:

    # 120. At 5:19pm on 18 Aug 2010, Chip C wrote:

    "Try either of these if you want to get an idea of why Americans of most stripes really would rather not see a mosque anywhere close to the World Trade Center.

    One is Columbine, Colorado, and the other is Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Both qualify as terrorist attacks on Americans, but by Americans. All four attackers were white, male, and presumably Christian or Jewish. It would appear that, by your reasoning, the families or religious fellowships to which any of those criminals belonged might build a church or memorial near the sites of their massacres without objection. This would be seriously incorrect."

    As I have pointed out numerous times, there is at least one mosque near the WTC site, and many in NYC.

    As to your analogy, let us assume for the sake of argument that the people you mention were Methodist. (I don’t know what if any religion they were brought up in, and doubt if they practised any when they died.)

    So you're saying that, 9 years or so after the murders they were responsible for, Methodists who did not agree with their murders, who condemned them, should not be allowed to build a Methodist church anywhere near the murders, as the victims’ families might be upset? Even if some of the victims’ families, and most people in the relevant area, including the Mayor, supported the church?

    Riiiight

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  • 161. At 9:15pm on 18 Aug 2010, John_From_Dublin wrote:

    114. At 5:00pm on 18 Aug 2010, SangerM wrote:

    I don’t propose to spend a great deal of time on this, since (a) there’s a new posting from m Mardell & (b) it isn’t worth it.

    A few points however.

    Sangerm patronises a respected journalist, and most non-Americans, and now me. Company I am happy to join. Mardell and others are apparently simplistic and childish and lack Sangerm’s ‘finesse’

    Sangerm tells me I was wildly incorrect about his politics. I deduced he was an extreme right-winger. Presumably therefore he is an extreme left-winger. Yeah. Right.

    He spends a deal of time telling us what either ‘many Americans’, or all or nearly all the people he talks to think. In one case only he specifies he does not agree, so it seems reasonable to assume that he does. These beliefs include
    1. “Obama ... really doesn't understand the American people”
    2. Obama does not see himself as American First and as a black man second
    3. “Obama nominated and his rubber-stamp congress confirmed a hateful anti-American Supreme Court Justice who will do more to divide this country than Bork ever would have done”
    4. Obama is a ‘callous egoistic nitwit’

    Now, it seems to me, logically, that it is pointless putting forward anecdotal evidence of what he or people he talks to believe unless he thinks they are broadly representative of the American people. Otherwise, what on earth is the point? He could say ‘nearly everyone I talk to voted against Obama – but then I work for the RNC and all my friends are Republican, so perhaps that isn’t surprising.’

    So, I picked on one of these beliefs – 3 above – and pointed out that, according to Gallup, not only did it not represent the US, it was not even in the conservative mainstream – he couldn’t just disagree with the beliefs of a judge, she had to be a ‘hateful anti-American’ – with of course no evidence whatsoever, in his original or later posting. I pointed out that, logically, if he and his chums were so outside the mainstream on this belief, it was reasonable to believe that his other views were no more representative. In which case, why should anyone care about them?

    But never mind that – Sangerm proved to his own satisfaction that he was right, the foreigners were wrong and he has oodles of finesse, enabling him to appreciate the subtleties of the US which us durn forriners can never grasp. Good for him.

    Or alternatively, to use his word, how onanistic.

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  • 162. At 9:20pm on 18 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    So, two blocks away is not far enough but four blocks awa is far enough to have a mosque? This somehow reminds me of the calf story of the Moses..

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  • 163. At 11:15pm on 18 Aug 2010, FrankMcG wrote:

    I have always put Islam in the same catagory as The First Church of Satan in California, i.e., another bogus religion whose followers don't belong in a Western Society. They do not want to adapt to the culture of the West and will never fit in unless they abandon many of their beliefs. Don't trust them as far as I can throw them. Go back and build your mosque in the middle of the Sahara Desert.

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  • 164. At 11:21pm on 18 Aug 2010, PartTimeDon wrote:

    Ref#159 AndreaNY
    "And I agree up to a point. It is why I found the fact that blacks voted for Obama because of his race and women for Hillary to be racist and sexist. A very parochial view, I admit."
    Parochial maybe, but hard to argue with.
    _________
    "Here, however, I'm inclined to listen to their views, as the incident involved devastation and trauma never before experienced here. Americans were specifically targeted as an "enemy". These victims were brutally killed. Because I do consider it an of war, I am giving them a "victim" status and respecting their need to handle this in their own way. I take a similar stance with respect to Jews and the Holocaust, blacks and slavery and Middle Easterners and the US war there. I don't expect any of the victims of violence to be deprived of their right to be angry and hurt."
    It's difficult to consider this an act of war. On which side to American Muslims sit if you accord the right to blame the act on Islam rather than a terrorist group that happen to originate in the middle east. As Americans and New Yorkers are they expected to forfeit that victimhood?
    Furthermore, it would be a losing battle. I can't think of too many terrorist groups who were wiped out through hostile action that didn't involve acts of near genocide. How badly do you want to win a war you could prosecute through a court of law?
    __________________________
    "And as I've mentioned, Muslim-Americans should hear what Americans are saying and, more importantly, thinking about them -- that is, if they are serious about being American. The smartest quote I've read was from a Muslim-American who said that every new group was treated poorly and they were simply the latest. In a way, he understood that the new kid on the block takes the heat but then becomes just another kid on the block."
    Are you suggesting that acceptance of being American is condition on acting in a way the white christian majority finds acceptable? Remind me again the point of setting sail on the Mayflower? Either way, saying that's how it's always been done doesn't make it right.

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  • 165. At 11:24pm on 18 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    If the Ground Zero Megamosque is built, there is no telling what will happen...

    As the black 8 ball has at times declared, "Outcome not good!"

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  • 166. At 11:29pm on 18 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    It is one thing to build a megamosque.
    It is another thing to build a megamosque overlooking Ground Zero, where radical Muslim terrorists murdered thousands of innocents.

    How can American Muslims expect us to respect them if they don't respect us?

    Where is the American Muslims respect for the fallen?

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  • 167. At 11:31pm on 18 Aug 2010, Scott0962 wrote:

    re. #124. At 5:31pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:
    117. At 5:06pm on 18 Aug 2010, Scott0962 wrote:
    re. #87. At 3:14pm on 18 Aug 2010, The Toothbrush Man wrote:
    75. At 2:23pm on 18 Aug 2010, Freeman wrote:

    "Just a wild stab in the dark but I imagine it is due to their religion being their motivation to attack the USA."

    That's just the point ! Islam was NOT the motivation for 9/11. Indeed, it is remarkable how FEW Americans do know why they attacked the US. The best answers I have had are the woolly "because they hate us," "because they hate freedom", "because they are jealous of us", and so on. But nobody seems to know WHY they actually hate the US.

    Which is remarkable because they made suicide videos stating exactly why they did attack the US. [Hint - it was nothing to do with Islam.]
    -------------

    Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us? They don't hate in the name of religion, they just practice jihad for fun? I've heard the usual litany of how its our fault because we meddle in the Middle East but where were the jihadists when we were saving Muslims from genocide in Bosnia?"
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Sorry you are saying you know what motivated these people better than the people themselves?

    When a moslem does something it is always and only because of religion according to you?

    Does that apply to jews as well?

    All semites?

    Maybe you should meet a moslem one day if you can bear it.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    No matter how they dress it up it's the same old evil our fathers fought against: a group of self-righteous zealots who won't be happy until everyone lives and thinks and even prays as they dictate and are perfectly willing to kill as many people as it takes in pursuit of that goal. Instead of Stukas now they use hijacked airliners or strap bombs to children and send them forth to become "martyrs"."
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Don't put yourself in the same frame as those who fought WWII, show some respect.

    Go to a veterans meeting and say you feel that 2001-2010 is just like 1941-45.

    They will tell you to pull your head in.

    --------------

    No doubt if I were talking about the threat from Nazis in the 1930s you'd send me to consult with the veterans of WWI so they could set me straight. Why don't you pull your head out? (Of the sand, of course.)

    You're trying to make excuses for radical Islam and it's war upon the west. I know which side I stand on, do you?

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  • 168. At 11:35pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    165. At 11:24pm on 18 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:
    If the Ground Zero Megamosque is built, there is no telling what will happen...

    As the black 8 ball has at times declared, "Outcome not good!"
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Care to explain what exactly a "megamosque" is.

    There is no such thing in Islam which does not have cathedrals

    As it stands it seems an anti-semetic slur word.

    But we await your definition with baited breath.

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  • 169. At 11:44pm on 18 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    How do we prevent the spread of homegrown radical Islam from developing in the USA?

    How do we know that this mosque will be used only for peaceful purposes?

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  • 170. At 11:44pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    159. At 9:11pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    158. PartTimeDon:

    "I actually agree, but I also believe that such protests should be deplored if the basis for the protest is based on differences in race, religion, sex or sexual preference."

    **********************
    And I agree up to a point. It is why I found the fact that blacks voted for Obama because of his race and women for Hillary to be racist and sexist. A very parochial view, I admit."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You know for a fact that blacks only voted for Obama because of his colour.

    This is because blacks are incapable of political judgments unlike white people?

    What a giveaway remark.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Here, however, I'm inclined to listen to their views, as the incident involved devastation and trauma never before experienced here. Americans were specifically targeted as an "enemy". These victims were brutally killed."
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    And the victims included Moslems
    -------------------------------------------------------------------- Because I do consider it an of war, I am giving them a "victim" status and respecting their need to handle this in their own way. I take a similar stance with respect to Jews and the Holocaust, blacks and slavery and Middle Easterners and the US war there. I don't expect any of the victims of violence to be deprived of their right to be angry and hurt."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Except the families of American moslems killed in 9/11, who are somehow not victims.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And as I've mentioned, Muslim-Americans should hear what Americans are saying and, more importantly, thinking about them -- that is, if they are serious about being American. The smartest quote I've read was from a Muslim-American who said that every new group was treated poorly and they were simply the latest. In a way, he understood that the new kid on the block takes the heat but then becomes just another kid on the block."
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Yes well black Americans found how bogus that was. Their white fellow citizens were lynching, beating and burning them after they had been on the block for 200 years.

    They found tha sometimes you have to claim your human rights otherwise the white kids on the block will keep burning down your block.

    And moslem Americans are not "serious" about being American, they are just as American as your nice white self, difficult as it may be for you to accept.

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  • 171. At 11:45pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    163. At 11:15pm on 18 Aug 2010, FrankMcG wrote:
    I have always put Islam in the same catagory as The First Church of Satan in California, i.e., another bogus religion whose followers don't belong in a Western Society. They do not want to adapt to the culture of the West and will never fit in unless they abandon many of their beliefs. Don't trust them as far as I can throw them. Go back and build your mosque in the middle of the Sahara Desert.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Do keep posting

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  • 172. At 11:49pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    150. At 7:03pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    144. Simon21: "Can't quite see why compassion is needed in this context."

    ****************
    No, you wouldn't. For you it's all about the rights, upholding the US Constitution and Bill of Rights, freedom of religous expression, the fight against intolerance and injustice, right?
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    No rights go beyond the US constitution.

    Under the US constitution slavery was allowed for over 70 years.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Have to admit it is hard to take someone's defense of rights seriously when that same person cannot defend a woman's right to leave her home on her own."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hard to ake seriously anyone who thinks the ability to drive trumps the consumption of women and children in their home-grown porn industry.

    Still the only woman I have ever heard from who does not find porn an atrocity.

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  • 173. At 11:51pm on 18 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    As an American, it is the most bizarre feeling in the world to know that our soldiers and our allies soldiers, our brothers, our sisters, our mothers, our fathers, our children are fighting in war millions of miles away against radical Islamic terrorists, while here at home, our President has declared his support for the legality and right to build a Ground Zero Megamosque, which would overlook the very spot where our fallen innocents lay...

    Where is Obama's loyalty?

    Where is Obama's patriotism?

    Why has Obama sold us out?

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  • 174. At 11:57pm on 18 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    A megamosque is a mosque that starts out as normal size, let's say about 13 stories, then is added on, added on, added on until it becomes a giant megamosque built high to the sky...

    Don't you think that the 9/11 terrorists would be proud to say that their "work" produced an environment in which now a megamosque to their Allah will be built overlooking what they did?

    They might even say, "Mission Accomplished!"

    Which is why this should not take place...

    We cannot let the terrorists defeat us in our homeland...

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  • 175. At 11:59pm on 18 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    167. At 11:31pm on 18 Aug 2010, Scott0962 wrote:


    No doubt if I were talking about the threat from Nazis in the 1930s you'd send me to consult with the veterans of WWI so they could set me straight. Why don't you pull your head out? (Of the sand, of course.)"
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Weren't the nazis the bunch who didn't like semites?, like er......

    Peddle your addled fantasies to a meeting of US veterans. Tell them that 9/11 was like the Ardennes Offensive or Guadalcanal or Iwo Jima and see how far you get.

    But that would take a bit of courage wouldn't it. Oh dear.

    hey might not be able to get you to see sense because of their age, but their descendants might.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You're trying to make excuses for radical Islam and it's war upon the west. I know which side I stand on, do you?"
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Are you standing? I thought you might have fallen over you brave, brave soldier!

    Sitting at home in your comfortable chair declaring war, why it's just like D-Day or Saipan. I can't understand why they haven't replaced the Iwo Jima icon with a picture of you at your computer pretending you are in a war.

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  • 176. At 00:04am on 19 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    166. At 11:29pm on 18 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:
    It is one thing to build a megamosque.
    It is another thing to build a megamosque overlooking Ground Zero, where radical Muslim terrorists murdered thousands of innocents.

    How can American Muslims expect us to respect them if they don't respect us?"
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Who is "us"? Are non-"us" people supposed to pay ultimate "respeck" to de white folks?

    Coz we all knows what happens when de non-white folks does not pay enouh respeck in the past don't we.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Where is the American Muslims respect for the fallen?"
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Where is your respect for your country and your fellow citizens?

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  • 177. At 00:07am on 19 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 178. At 00:15am on 19 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    174. At 11:57pm on 18 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:
    A megamosque is a mosque that starts out as normal size, let's say about 13 stories, then is added on, added on, added on until it becomes a giant megamosque built high to the sky..."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Mosques don't have stories (not even terraces) and are not 13 stories high what do you mean?

    Are you talking about minarets, this place won't have them.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Don't you think that the 9/11 terrorists would be proud to say that their "work" produced an environment in which now a megamosque to their Allah will be built overlooking what they did?"
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    I think you may be partaking of refreshment?


    Who knows what impresses the dead? Do you think George Washington would be pleased a black man is president of the US - hardly he bought and sold them."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    They might even say, "Mission Accomplished!"
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    They knocked down the twin towers to build a mosque?

    Never heard that one before.

    Ever heard the idea that when you are in a hole?
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Which is why this should not take place...

    We cannot let the terrorists defeat us in our homeland...
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    But it will and if you don't like it leave and go to North Korea or Burma, you will obviously be happy there -no mosques

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  • 179. At 00:22am on 19 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    Simon, I feel for you because you seem to almost have excessive negativity towards white Christians, for whatever reason, I do not know, but there must have been some kind of a wrongful experience at one point or something to make you feel the way you do?

    I am sorry if someone treated you wrong in the past. But do not take it all out on other white Christians just because of past experiences.

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  • 180. At 00:49am on 19 Aug 2010, ARMINIUS11 wrote:

    well the Constitution trumps every other law.....so if the constitution is violated here it will be soon elsewhere.....so this is more than a mosque now....besides from what ihave heard it isnt actually close to the WTC......whas the big problem and as OBAMA said honestly IT ISNT WISE!!

    truth be told Muslims died in SEPT 11 and at the hands of AL QAEDA and TALIBAN in the ME so they too have been terror victims and if it be the case they are liable for OSAMA deeds then all descendents of Slave owners and Conquistadors are liable for Genocide and crimes against humanity and slavery!!they should then leave the NEW WORLD.....but hey we all have senses right!!


    the main point of CHRISTIANITY is FORGIVENESS not HATE!!

    another note if this mosque is not allowed or a MCVEIGH incident happens the US shud excuse itself from ME diplomacy and Israeli/Palestinian peace efforts because then it demonstrates for sure it has no middle ground

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  • 181. At 00:51am on 19 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    Simon, white skin color tends to come up a lot in your dialogues. It is usually not in a positive factor.

    Do you dislike me because I am white?

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  • 182. At 00:59am on 19 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    I am not against peaceful Muslims, but I am against Muslim radical terrorists.

    I am not against building peaceful mosques, but I am against building mosques that promote Islamic terrorism.

    I do not believe all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists that have attacked us recently have been Muslim radical extremists.

    There is no way to tell who is who...

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  • 183. At 01:12am on 19 Aug 2010, ARMINIUS11 wrote:

    Lucy while i dont agree with "white" from simon......

    ppl against the mosque are the same ppl questioning Obama statements ....the same Obama who is sending NG troops to the Mexican border.....who staying the ourse in AFGHAN and IRAQ and who has sen black white jewish chritian muslim troops to those places so dont infer that all AMERICANS ARE WHITE CHRISTIANs cause they are not and in a democracy the rights of the minority are respected......

    lot of Muslims are oppressed in Islamic countries dont extend that to USA also

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  • 184. At 01:14am on 19 Aug 2010, ARMINIUS11 wrote:

    what is a terrorist LUCY?and how can u ascertain which mosques promote terrorism?

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  • 185. At 01:16am on 19 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    What's the matter Lucy, don't you care for President Obama's "mosquerade party?" Just be glad they didn't buy the replacement for the World Trade Center and build the megamosque 1776 feet high. Just be glad the US government didn't put up your tax money to help them pay for it. Or will they...if President Barack Hussein Obama has his way? How many votes do you think this little episode will cost his party in December?

    How can a president speak out of both sides of his mouth and get away with it so often? Do you think the media is giving him a free pass?

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  • 186. At 01:16am on 19 Aug 2010, ARMINIUS11 wrote:

    "theres is no way to tell who is who"

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Lucy stereotyping is RACIST AND BIGOTRY!dont do that to Muslims Blacks or MExicans!!!

    i hope u know Europeans stereotype Americans as illiterate and cultureless!im sure u are not

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  • 187. At 01:19am on 19 Aug 2010, ARMINIUS11 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 188. At 01:34am on 19 Aug 2010, ARMINIUS11 wrote:

    truthfully Obama has earned some respect as he has been criticised by the grassroots for being too political...i mean thas courage right before elections!!


    some of these arguments from Gingrich and PALIN .....i dont mean ordinary citizens cause of freedom of speech......are questionable to say the least from "responsible" previously elected personalities!

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  • 189. At 01:39am on 19 Aug 2010, ARMINIUS11 wrote:

    however this episode shows the wisdom of the Founding fathers centuries ago.......my GOD they were WISE...and this can only strengthen the Constitution and its application and show if the mosque is built that USA is not INTOLERANT and has values to advertise to the world.....as one of the world's SECULAR oldest REPUBLIC!


    ps.....ppl forget the GOD of CHRISTIANITY JUDAISM & ISLAM is the same GOD.....with the same message and instead of fighting quarreling and killing ppl should stop taking the time identifying our differences and worship him more......

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  • 190. At 01:44am on 19 Aug 2010, McJakome wrote:

    3. At 04:14am on 18 Aug 2010, KScurmudgeon wrote:
    “I do understand Mr. Obama's statements, I always have. I find no duplicity in him, but a profound subtlety anchored in principle and in reality.

    I am white, Christian, and conservative in my principles. Maybe good sense is the dying characteristic around here.”

    I agree with you, and from the other side of the vanishing middle of American politics. The left got too crazy and anti-American in the 70’s. And they and the Limbaughs and Coulters have been undermining the mutual respect in disagreement that made America great.

    I lost respect for John McCain when he abandoned principle in order to be elected. I hope my countrymen will come to their senses.

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  • 191. At 01:55am on 19 Aug 2010, McJakome wrote:

    9. At 06:01am on 18 Aug 2010, Curt Carpenter wrote:
    “For contrast, imagine how President George W. Bush would have responded to this issue. Some country would have had to be invaded (so that The Homeland might be made safe).”

    For all that I thoroughly despise George W. Bush and his Neocon controllers, I must point out that your attack is unjustified. Following the attack on 9/11 he came forward and made it plain to those Americans who listened that Al Qaida and NOT Islam was the enemy. He said similar things at various times.

    Your statement is knee-jerk propaganda, not only without merit, but undermining the value of anything you have to say.

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  • 192. At 01:56am on 19 Aug 2010, Spottletoe wrote:

    Since Christians commit most of the crime in the U.S., no more Christian churches should be permitted to be built anywhere, since no matter where they might be built, they're bound to be in close proximity to where a Christian has committed a crime at some time in the past. And how do we know they won't be used to promote more crimes by Christians?

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  • 193. At 02:04am on 19 Aug 2010, Kris_F wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 194. At 03:21am on 19 Aug 2010, mabelwhite wrote:

    big·ot
    Pronunciation: \ˈbi-gət\
    Function: noun
    Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot
    Date: 1660
    : a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

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  • 195. At 03:57am on 19 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    194. mabelwhite:

    big·ot

    **********************
    Is someone who derides rednecks or white Christians also bigotted?

    Which group isn't bigotted?

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  • 196. At 04:17am on 19 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    164. PartTimeDon:

    I do consider it an act of war, which may explain our difference.

    The "condition of being American" I'm talking about is one in which you get criticized and other Americans tell you what they think of you. You are not protected from criticism, and you are certainly not entitled to special consideration. Americans have the right to freely express their views.

    This center can and will probably be built there, but the builders should hear everything Americans have to say about their doing so.

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  • 197. At 04:52am on 19 Aug 2010, FrankMcG wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 198. At 09:36am on 19 Aug 2010, Matt wrote:

    174. At 11:57pm on 18 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    "Don't you think that the 9/11 terrorists would be proud to say that their "work" produced an environment in which now a megamosque to their Allah will be built overlooking what they did?

    They might even say, "Mission Accomplished!"

    Which is why this should not take place...

    We cannot let the terrorists defeat us in our homeland..."

    Yes, I think they probably will say 'Hurrah Islam Beats America'. But only because people like you made such a fuss about it. If you were tollerant and just let it happen, nobody would notice and you would not have to think in terms of having 'lost'.

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  • 199. At 10:22am on 19 Aug 2010, MagicKirin wrote:

    A few points:

    This Iman is no moderate he said U.S policies made us an accomplice in 9/11 and refused to call Hamas a terrorist group.

    There is a lot pc tak about respecting moselm sensitivities but they do not do the same.

    not only where this center is to be placed but around the world. Moslems built a msoque on top of the reamins of the second temple in Jersusulem yet the great Statesman Ariel Sharon is criticized when he chose to visit the Temple Mount

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  • 200. At 11:02am on 19 Aug 2010, sayasay wrote:

    colonelartist, Simon21 and The Toothbrush Man
    I am Indonesian and I showed your comments to my Indonesian Muslim friends. These are their responses.
    The Toothbrush Man “Which is remarkable because they made suicide videos stating exactly why they did attack the US. [Hint - it was nothing to do with Islam.]” Just hinting, they say, is a toothless way to talk. In actuality, all has to do with AQ and Islam.

    Later confirmed in a roundabout way by The Toothbrush Man with “because of the US presence in their own countries” at #102. Why so? Because Islam does not permit non-believers so near the Holy Sites of Mecca and Medina. And at #126: “stated aims of AQ are to remove the elite and replace them not with a democracy - but with an Islamic state, al la Iran” What is so bad about this “elite”? Because according to AQ, they are munafiqun in Islam. Munafiq, the singular form, is the Arab-Islamic equivalent word for hypocrite. But unlike the English word, a favourite subject for Comedy Central and like. Being a Munafiq in Islam is a very serious thing that demands severe and serious response. And the goal is not “an Islamic State al la Iran”, but a wide ranging Darul Islam with Sunni foundation not Shiite.

    Simon 21 and colonelartist at #134 and #135 consecutively mentioned all the bad guys: “royal families, Dictators, American soldiers in saudiarabia etc”. All these people are against Islamic tenets as per AQ manifesto.

    Simon21 is wrong. Indonesia is not a Muslim country; it is a pluralist Republic with the world’s largest population of Muslims. Just recently on Aug. 8, fanatical Muslims attack Christians at an open-air church service in Bekasi, West Java. These Christians had been trying to get a church building permit since 2007.

    What about at # 141 Simon21’s “Yes it must provided you keep the laws.You should know your own country”. To this, my friends say ‘Great, it serves Allah’s purpose’.

    And if colonelartist and Simon21 does the Abbot and Costello routine on me: like asking for website links, proof of original Arabic texts, named sources, name calling etc. I say bug-off; as far as I am concern my Muslim friends are more dependable, they are not anonymous: I know their names, same race as me, and they are Muslims.

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  • 201. At 11:20am on 19 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    198. Matt:

    "Yes, I think they probably will say 'Hurrah Islam Beats America'. But only because people like you made such a fuss about it. If you were tollerant and just let it happen, nobody would notice and you would not have to think in terms of having 'lost'."

    ****************
    Get your point, but I hardly think radicals are going to notice only because people objected to the mosque. More likely, it will be used either way as propaganda and the moral nuances will be irrelevant as will be your tolerance.

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  • 202. At 11:59am on 19 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    One poll has it that 80% of Americans oppose the Mosque being built near the WTC site.

    NPR said Newt Gingrich compared Moslems to Nazis. What he actually said was that we would strongly protest Nazis building anything comparable near a war memorial, the Japanese building anything comparable near Pearl Harbor. NPR just plain lied by distortin the facts.

    For people who would do something that flies in the face of what 80% of Americans feel strongly opposed to can hardly be claimed to be bringing people together, it smacks more of thumbing their noses at us.

    The realization of such a project if it were to happen will inevitably provoke those among a small mentally unstable minority to commit acts of violence against it repeatedly. For them it will be like waving a red flag in front of a bull. It could provoke the very confrontation between most Americans and all of Islam American Moslems say they want to avoid. Even NPR pointed out that although President Bush and some other Republican leaders mae the point often and clearly that America was not at war with Islam, that could change. If it happens, in hindsight this will be clearly seen a bad mistake. Too bad those promoting it can't see it in foresight.

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  • 203. At 12:33pm on 19 Aug 2010, Tim0thy wrote:

    I've almost given up on commenting on these blogs because whatever one says the brain dead and the obnoxious will continue to pour out their unpleasant beliefs as truths. I cannot, however allow the earlier comments by MA11 to pass unremarked. The citizens of the US are not 100% behind Israel in fact if the circle of friends of mine of US origin is anything to go by I doubt if 50% are totally behind Israel.
    US citizens are not tolerant of Muslims anything BUT to use that word as used by MA11. I remember all too well the vituperation expressed immediately after the Oklahoma bombing where it was all the work of 'fundamentalist Muslims" until, of course, it was revealed that it was the work of a home grown crazy of which the US has more than a few. I cannot recall at that point there being any retractions or apologies from the same commentators when they were proven to be wrong.

    The US is perceived by the Muslim world as being almost at war with the followers of Mohammed. The constant support of Israel even when that country is behaving in a blatantly illegal manner, the invasion of Iraq and so on it goes. MA11 says the Muslims will just have to accept Israel as a fait accompli I suggest that US citizens of his persuasion start by accepting that there are over 1 billion Muslims and that you can't bomb them all.

    I am equally appalled by the way that certain US citizens, unfortunately a fairly large proportion, can never accept any blame for it's actions. In many ways the events of 11th September 2001 can be seen as a self inflicted injury in as much as Al-Qaeda was born from those trained and supplied by the CIA in order to force the Russians out of Afghanistan. When that battle had been won the US cynically walked away from the people of that country leaving them at the mercy of scores of War Lords and the Taliban. The people of the US took no notice of the suffering of these people until in was brought brutally and cruelly to the shores of the US in the form of the attacks of 11th September. This does not mean I condone the deaths of 3000 persons BUT (that word again) one tends to reap what one sows.

    Finally I can't help wondering at the timing of this 'Mosque' maybe someone should take a deep look at who the owners of the property really are and their motives,in my humble opinion it's all a tad too convenient for the Republican right.

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  • 204. At 12:33pm on 19 Aug 2010, PartTimeDon wrote:

    This treats the whole issue with the respect it deserves...

    http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/outrage-over-plans-to-build-library-next-to-sarah-palin-201008193017/

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  • 205. At 1:20pm on 19 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    202. MarcusAureliusII:

    "NPR said Newt Gingrich..."

    *****************
    Anything Gingrich said will automatically be dismissed and derided, and then, in the next breath, an accusation about ignorant "knee-jerk" responses will be made. All with the greatest conviction and moral certitude. If only we could all be more open-minded and tolerant -- and know exactly which groups deserve derision and outright dismissal and which groups deserve our protection.

    The mosque will be defended more strongly now that republicans and, worse, Palin have weighed in. What a shame that "politics" have been brought into this debate.

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  • 206. At 1:24pm on 19 Aug 2010, Tim0thy wrote:

    #202 MA11

    "One poll has it that 80% of Americans oppose the Mosque being built near the WTC site."

    Wow Marcus the odious Dr Goebels would have been proud of you. The first sentence makes an unverified claim, no mention of the source of the poll (probably an exit poll outside a white supremacist meeting in Alabama). We then read another sentence before we get the bald assertion that 80% of Americans are opposed to this Mosque. I can't even give that a rating of 'nice try' it's just too pathetic for words.

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  • 207. At 1:25pm on 19 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    190. JMM:

    "I lost respect for John McCain when he abandoned principle in order to be elected."

    **************
    Which principle(s)?

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  • 208. At 2:12pm on 19 Aug 2010, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #203
    The US is perceived by the Muslim world as being almost at war with the followers of Mohammed. The constant support of Israel even when that country is behaving in a blatantly illegal manner, the invasion of Iraq and so on it goes. MA11 says the Muslims will just have to accept Israel as a fait accompli I suggest that US citizens of his persuasion start by accepting that there are over 1 billion Muslims and that you can't bomb them all.
    ______________-

    As my earlier post noted, why does the moslems world fail to show respect to non moslems.

    Considering when disaster strikes moslem countries like Pakistan who gives the most aid.

    Educcated and secular moslem like the Kurds in Iraq are not in thrall to the islamic fanatism.

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  • 209. At 2:17pm on 19 Aug 2010, Matt wrote:

    AndreaNY wrote:
    "Get your point, but I hardly think radicals are going to notice only because people objected to the mosque. More likely, it will be used either way as propaganda and the moral nuances will be irrelevant as will be your tolerance. "


    Yes, I fully agree. However the people 'taking offence at being beaten by Islam', aside from misunderstanding what they are being 'beaten' by, are only doing so because of their biggotry. It's only a news story because people are irrationally up in arms about it.


    Incidentally (unrelated to your post, but related to something others have said) in the UK most terrorist attacks have been rcarried out by Christians. We never even thought to try to prevent christians building any centres, worship or otherwise wherever they wanted.

    I made a facebook post about this a few weeks back; and I can understand that people might interpret it as Islam doing what it traditionally did; conquering somewhere and building a mosque with a huge minaret to show their power. Fortunately, that's not what's happened, but unfortunately a lot of people are just not bright enough to see that.

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  • 210. At 2:34pm on 19 Aug 2010, Spottletoe wrote:

    I am baffled as to why one is expected to be respectful and tolerant of the intolerable, such as religion in this modern age. I do not discriminate but rather abhor all superstitions equally, whether it be a peculiar belief in any gods or a fear of walking under ladders. If this makes me a bigot, so be it. But my dictionary defines a bigot as one who "holds blindly and intolerantly to a particular creed, opinion, etc." As my intolerance is due to education, research, experience, and a great deal of thought rather than blindness, I'm not sure I qualify. But if so, I don't give a carp.

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  • 211. At 2:44pm on 19 Aug 2010, Scottow wrote:

    The US should take a tip from Scotland on dealing with Muslims - the Scots have had 200 years of experience.

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  • 212. At 2:48pm on 19 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    209. Matt:

    "However the people 'taking offence at being beaten by Islam', aside from misunderstanding what they are being 'beaten' by, are only doing so because of their biggotry."

    ***************
    I think your view is very narrow. It's not just bigotry that drives this perspective. It's a acknowledgement that there is a battle being waged.

    People are quick to claim a lack of perspective on the part of opponents. But doesn't it also lack perspective to attribute a Western view of rights and upholding them to people for whom both are anathema?

    If you are seriously concerned with sending a message, you should know who is on the receiving end and what kind of message they are really capable of receiving. Have you ever stopped to think that the notion of a "right" may not even exist? So as nice as sending messages about upholding rights may make you feel, there may be no audience for these messages among extremists.

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  • 213. At 3:30pm on 19 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    And if colonelartist and Simon21 does the Abbot and Costello routine on me: like asking for website links, proof of original Arabic texts, named sources, name calling etc. I say bug-off; as far as I am concern my Muslim friends are more dependable, they are not anonymous: I know their names, same race as me, and they are Muslims.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Pre-emptiveness of any sort is forbiden...Colonelartist never asks all these western kind of questions which you first assumed and then answered your self.Indonesia is neither iran or saudiarabia..

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  • 214. At 4:03pm on 19 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    Educcated and secular moslem like the Kurds in Iraq are not in thrall to the islamic fanatism.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Then, as a rule, you should be more scared of such muslims, than the fanatics....Sallahudin Ayubi, the muslim who defeated crussaders, was a kurd...Tariq, of the famous jabalultariq aka gibralter, wasnt a fanatic,he led to the conquest of spain. Your leaders have grasped what you do not...Fanatism in islam serves west best...Modern muslims or not fanatic muslims create problems...Ergo they got rid of saddam..Ergo, they picture iranian government as fanatics...

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  • 215. At 5:03pm on 19 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    Ergo, they picture iranian government as fanatics...

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This is because they are fanatics, as evidence proves.

    The evidence is clear in cases such as the Green Revolution, where the protesters were stifled for all to see.

    Many protesters were harassed, shot at, raped, murdered, threatened, etc. because they spoke out against the govt.

    Ahamjijad has said several times he does not believe the Holocaust existed despite evidence and proof.

    Ahmajijad is a smart man, very intelligent, but he is also extremely biased and one-sided to the degree that it overrides his intelligence. For his lack of reasoning and his lack of compassion to anyone who disagrees with him, this makes him very dangerous, indeed.

    But the fact that they did stifle the Green Revolution tells me that they were scared, if not at least, for a little bit, of the people.

    Ultimately, the people will prevail. How long it takes is anyone's guess.

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  • 216. At 5:14pm on 19 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    202 The realization of such a project if it were to happen will inevitably provoke those among a small mentally unstable minority to commit acts of violence against it repeatedly. For them it will be like waving a red flag in front of a bull. It could provoke the very confrontation between most Americans and all of Islam American Moslems say they want to avoid.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    MAII put it just the way it is.

    Playing with fire...

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  • 217. At 6:21pm on 19 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    Some Americans are questioning whether Obama might secretly be a Muslim...
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100819/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_poll_obama_s_religion_9

    Al-Qaida wants to create a new war...

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/9517_alqaedaplansforwarwithisrael

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  • 218. At 6:55pm on 19 Aug 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    " Why build a mosque at Ground Zero? The approximately 3000 who died were, for the most part, not Moslems. They were killed by Islamic fanaticism. Rather than insist on building a mosque at that site, Islamic institutions should contribute towards building an all-faith memorial at the site."








    But they won't. Because of what they are. End of story.

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  • 219. At 7:01pm on 19 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    Some Americans are questioning whether Obama might secretly be a Muslim...
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    So that they can genrously say " The muslim killing muslims"? Since neither bible or the democracy allows you to kill others, so, by saying he is a muslim, you can sit back and relax..

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  • 220. At 7:02pm on 19 Aug 2010, powermeerkat wrote:


    MAII Wrote: NPR said Newt Gingrich compared Moslems to Nazis]]

    That's NOT the only NPR's lie.

    It also claimed (and BBC has repeated that) that "Puerto Rico is a US colony" [sic]



    At this rate I may start to watch FOX News.

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  • 221. At 7:51pm on 19 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    220. powermeerkat:

    "At this rate I may start to watch FOX News."

    ******************
    Now you've gone and done it. They're not supposed to know we don't actually watch FoxNews. You've blown our cover as blog infiltrators promoting propaganda. I'm telling Rove on you. (Just be thankful I'm not telling Cheney.) :-P

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  • 222. At 8:00pm on 19 Aug 2010, GH1618 wrote:

    Here is a link to a Washington Post article:

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    which quotes Newt Gingrich as having said:

    ""Nazis don't have the right to put up a sign next to the holocaust museum in Washington," Gingrich insisted, speaking of the museum where just a year ago a guard was killed by a white supremacist trying to enter the building with a gun."

    in the context of discussion about the proposed mosque in Manhattan.

    That looks like a comparison to me, but instead of quibbling about the meaning of "comparison," and calling respected media outlets such as NPR liars, why not just look at what Mr. Gingrich actually said, and discuss the merits of it? Some posters here (see 220) never link to original sources because doing so would interfere with their spin.

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  • 223. At 8:48pm on 19 Aug 2010, sayasay wrote:

    "Pre-emptiveness of any sort is forbiden"... is this just another man-made haram rule?

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  • 224. At 9:02pm on 19 Aug 2010, GH1618 wrote:

    Curious. It says "URL removed" in post 222, yet it links as intended.

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  • 225. At 9:12pm on 19 Aug 2010, GH1618 wrote:

    Here is a link to a photograph of a Shinto shrine on Oahu (where Pearl Harbor is located).

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  • 226. At 9:40pm on 19 Aug 2010, GH1618 wrote:

    Forgot the link! http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/890015

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  • 227. At 9:48pm on 19 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    "Pre-emptiveness of any sort is forbiden"... is this just another man-made haram rule?
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Look around you, from pre-emtiveness of wars to your own pre-emptiveness which you showed in your earlier post..

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  • 228. At 9:54pm on 19 Aug 2010, supersixone wrote:

    honestly as an American who opposes the mosque at the proposed site I just want to know who is funding it. If an investigation finds no links to any extremist/anti-American groups then find go ahead and build it. But I am just curious how they plan on achieving their goals of better US-Muslim relations by ignoring the wishes of the people they hope to reach. But like I said if they want it there build it there. There is no legal basis to stop the construction, however I have a sense that the mosque is not really intended to promote peace but rather as a slap in the face to America. I guess only time will tell.

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  • 229. At 9:56pm on 19 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    I have been to Pearl Harbor, which is hallowed ground. My grandmother made it a point that we visited it and paid our respects.

    Maybe there is a Shinto shrine on Oahu, but there is no Shinto shrine overlooking Pearl Harbor. Instead, there are memorials.

    Pearl Harbor is a very sacred place. You can feel it in the air if you go there. The clear blue water in the Hawaiian Islands is so beautiful and peaceful.

    9/11 Ground Zero is also sacred and hallowed ground.

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  • 230. At 10:19pm on 19 Aug 2010, GH1618 wrote:

    <RICHPOST>supersixone (228): "<i>But I am just curious how they plan on achieving their goals of better US-Muslim relations by ignoring the wishes of the people they hope to reach.</i>"<BR /><BR />Here is a link to the mission statement of Park51, the Islamic cultural center under discussion:<BR /><BR /><a href="http://www.park51.org/mission.htm"[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]<BR />The first statement of mission is: "Uphold respect for the diversity of expression and ideas between all people."<BR /><BR />I don't see how rolling over for bigots helps further this mission. While they optimistically include "all people" and "all New Yorkers" within their outreach, it is obvious that many people will never get on board. So what.<BR /><BR />In any case there are more supporters than opponents of the project in Manhattan. </RICHPOST>

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  • 231. At 10:26pm on 19 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    A link to Pearl Harbor which clearly shows that there is no Shinto shrine overlooking it...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Harbor_Memorial

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  • 232. At 10:31pm on 19 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    If the start of month of fasting was so generously welcomed by the americans, wait til its end...They will all go hyper...Chances are that it falls on sept 11...I guess the new yorkians wont even allow the muslims to pray in their mosque which is four blocks away from their holy ground of worship.

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  • 233. At 11:05pm on 19 Aug 2010, sayasay wrote:

    “Fanatism in islam serves west best”. Nope. Not True. Leaving aside the religious aspect but looking at just the political level, fanatics under the control of strong and bloody-minded leaders served the west most favourably. The Cold War testified to this, with the ‘hot line’ between Washington and Moscow ensured anything acrimonious can be negotiated and settled. On the other hand, the Iranian Revolution and the Iranian Hostage Crisis showed that disparate fanatical sub-groups working just on centrality of ideas can create havoc beyond control. CIA never did figure out how an exiled Ayatollah, thousands of miles away in Paris, could inspire the Iranian Revolutionaries to overthrow the Shah. Later President Carter muddled through for 444 days, never knowing who to negotiate effectively with, from the Iranian side. By then Ayatollah Khomeini was clearly charge, and he saw no reason to provoke the more hawkish next-president, Reagan. Saudi Government managing Wahabi fanaticism suits the West just fine.
    Al Qaeda informal organisational structure is modelled along the same lines, all that is required is ‘super-clarity’ of over-arching ideas, the rest of the fanatics will know what to do. Please don’t even bother to bring the ‘misinterpretation of Islam’ argument. The human bomb carrier is a doer, after finishing his interpreting through prayers.

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  • 234. At 11:22pm on 19 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    229. At 9:56pm on 19 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:
    I have been to Pearl Harbor, which is hallowed ground. My grandmother made it a point that we visited it and paid our respects.

    Maybe there is a Shinto shrine on Oahu, but there is no Shinto shrine overlooking Pearl Harbor. Instead, there are memorials.

    Pearl Harbor is a very sacred place. You can feel it in the air if you go there. The clear blue water in the Hawaiian Islands is so beautiful and peaceful.

    9/11 Ground Zero is also sacred and hallowed ground."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And I have visited Kohima, Changi and Buna.

    So please don't insult the dead of these places by claiming you have lived through Pearl Harbour.

    Such is beneath contempt. Your Grandmother must be very upset.

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  • 235. At 11:24pm on 19 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    228. At 9:54pm on 19 Aug 2010, supersixone wrote:
    honestly as an American who opposes the mosque at the proposed site I just want to know who is funding it. If an investigation finds no links to any extremist/anti-American groups then find go ahead and build it. But I am just curious how they plan on achieving their goals of better US-Muslim relations by ignoring the wishes of the people they hope to reach. But like I said if they want it there build it there. There is no legal basis to stop the construction, however I have a sense that the mosque is not really intended to promote peace but rather as a slap in the face to America. I guess only time will tell."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The first synagogues in the US drew protest, the LDS felt they were driven out by lynch mobs.

    You either beleive in religious freedom or you do not?

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  • 236. At 11:30pm on 19 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 237. At 11:32pm on 19 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    218. At 6:55pm on 19 Aug 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
    " Why build a mosque at Ground Zero? The approximately 3000 who died were, for the most part, not Moslems. They were killed by Islamic fanaticism. Rather than insist on building a mosque at that site, Islamic institutions should contribute towards building an all-faith memorial at the site."


    But they won't. Because of what they are. End of story."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    But it is an all faith project oh genius isn't it?

    That is the very point. Why do you think christians and a rabbi are on the board?

    Not good with facts are you eh

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  • 238. At 11:39pm on 19 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    179. At 00:22am on 19 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:
    Simon, I feel for you because you seem to almost have excessive negativity towards white Christians, for whatever reason, I do not know, but there must have been some kind of a wrongful experience at one point or something to make you feel the way you do?"
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    No Lucy I read books try it and you may learn something.

    Christians have no right to point the finger at others. Ever heard of something called the holocaust?

    Northern Ireland

    Rwanda

    LRA
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I am sorry if someone treated you wrong in the past. But do not take it all out on other white Christians just because of past experiences.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    And what of you Lucy

    Why do you hate moslems so much? Why do you want to insult their dead and insist they are less than you?

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  • 239. At 11:42pm on 19 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    216. At 5:14pm on 19 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:
    202 The realization of such a project if it were to happen will inevitably provoke those among a small mentally unstable minority to commit acts of violence against it repeatedly. For them it will be like waving a red flag in front of a bull. It could provoke the very confrontation between most Americans and all of Islam American Moslems say they want to avoid.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    MAII put it just the way it is.

    Playing with fire..."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Ah there we have it.

    So US moslems must not ask for thier rights because others might lynch them?

    And where would you stand in this Lucy, would you like to be one of the crowd?

    Mob rule violence - a terrible stain on the US


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  • 240. At 11:47pm on 19 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    212. At 2:48pm on 19 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    209. Matt:

    "However the people 'taking offence at being beaten by Islam', aside from misunderstanding what they are being 'beaten' by, are only doing so because of their biggotry."

    ***************
    I think your view is very narrow. It's not just bigotry that drives this perspective. It's a acknowledgement that there is a battle being waged.

    People are quick to claim a lack of perspective on the part of opponents. But doesn't it also lack perspective to attribute a Western view of rights and upholding them to people for whom both are anathema?"
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Ah so the US declarations about rights being universal, were rubbish were they.

    Only some people have rights and only if they are grateful for them?

    Nice people who come in a certain colour and beleive in certain religion.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    If you are seriously concerned with sending a message, you should know who is on the receiving end and what kind of message they are really capable of receiving. Have you ever stopped to think that the notion of a "right" may not even exist? So as nice as sending messages about upholding rights may make you feel, there may be no audience for these messages among extremists."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    No but the message isn't meant for extremists is it? Radio Free Europe did not aim to convert the USSR Politburo did it?




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  • 241. At 11:51pm on 19 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    229. At 9:56pm on 19 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:
    I have been to Pearl Harbor, which is hallowed ground. My grandmother made it a point that we visited it and paid our respects.

    Maybe there is a Shinto shrine on Oahu, but there is no Shinto shrine overlooking Pearl Harbor. Instead, there are memorials.

    Pearl Harbor is a very sacred place. You can feel it in the air if you go there. The clear blue water in the Hawaiian Islands is so beautiful and peaceful.

    9/11 Ground Zero is also sacred and hallowed ground.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Pompous piffle. There are lots of "sacred" grounds about. One is at Getysburg whihc features memorials from slave owning confederate rebels, no one bats an eye at this.

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  • 242. At 00:45am on 20 Aug 2010, McJakome wrote:

    131. At 6:05pm on 18 Aug 2010, Echotheword wrote: “The Arabic word ‘Islam’ means peace. They worship God like everyone here in the USA.”

    Is this propaganda or just an ignorant mistake? Islam means "submision [to the will of Allah]." Arabic names begining with "Abd el..." literally mean "slave of ..."

    They [not forgetting that there are multiple forms of Islam] do not all "worship God like everyone here in the USA.” The tenets of the religion as they are NOW differ significantly. Female subjugation can be rationalized as cultural but it is held by muslims to be part of their religious practice. This is favored only by the most reactionary Christians.

    How about truth rather than easily disproven propaganda on this excellent publication?

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  • 243. At 00:52am on 20 Aug 2010, sayasay wrote:

    #227 colonel
    Your “Look around you, from pre-emtiveness of wars to Your Pre-emptiveness…”
    So now you are the granter plus ‘determinator’ of poetic plus literacy licenses in writing styles. Which must always be to your liking and approval… I see but I don’t really care. I know what I am doing is not democracy but fitnah to you, colonel sir.

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  • 244. At 01:01am on 20 Aug 2010, McJakome wrote:

    133. At 6:10pm on 18 Aug 2010, FhfWolfy wrote:
    121.
    “It has been decided that yes, it IS legal for them to build there and every one of us is resigned to allow them to but that DOESN'T stop us from trying to get them to VOLUNTARILY move it somewhere less sensitive.”

    How very tolerant and commendable. But how, pray tell, can they move it when you won't tell them were it would be OK to relocate? Would one block north be OK? Would the South Bronx be OK? People like AndreaNY adamantly, snidely and dismissively refuse to say WHERE would be OK, leaving one to believe that the answer is "NOWHERE."

    I have to admit I share the suspicions of those noting muslim lack of tolerance elsewhere. I have lived for ten years in the Middle East [Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia, UAE] and have visited other Muslim countries. I see the people as human beings who are entitled to respect, but without politically correct blinders.

    I reluctantly agree with President Obama and the US Constitution on this issue. What makes the US great is our adherence to law and to the Constitution. To sacrifice that because of emotional irrationality and politically motivated expedience would be to disrespect all that the founding fathers and our ancestors worked so hard to produce.

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  • 245. At 01:39am on 20 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    And what of you Lucy

    Why do you hate moslems so much? Why do you want to insult their dead and insist they are less than you?

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The answer is obvious. We are at war with radical Islamic terrorists who want to destroy all other religions, democracies, and freedoms. Most recent terrorist attacks have been Muslim radical extremists.

    I do not insult their dead and I do not insist they are less than me. If the American Muslim Community wants to bring about peace between the Muslims, Christians and other religions, they would build an interfaith center with sections for all different religions so that we can bond together as many religions under America.

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  • 246. At 01:43am on 20 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    So US moslems must not ask for thier rights because others might lynch them?

    And where would you stand in this Lucy, would you like to be one of the crowd?

    Mob rule violence - a terrible stain on the US

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Simon, only you and a select few others would use a word like lynch in today's day and age. Are you trying to bring back certain organizations?

    I'm not saying it is necessarily right, but I can see both sides of the story. Simply saying that it is an outcome that could very well happen...

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  • 247. At 01:52am on 20 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    There are lots of "sacred" grounds about. One is at Getysburg whihc features memorials from slave owning confederate rebels, no one bats an eye at this.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You are right that Gettysburg is sacred, as well. I was fortunate enough to have visited that also and it is almost a spiritual feeling to be amongst such history.

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  • 248. At 03:01am on 20 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    244. JMM:

    Do you see protests of building at this site a violation of their right to do so?

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  • 249. At 03:05am on 20 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    244. JMM:

    "People like AndreaNY adamantly, snidely and dismissively refuse to say WHERE would be OK, leaving one to believe that the answer is 'NOWHERE.'"

    *********************
    Wrong on all accounts. They have the right to build wherever legally allowed. Yours is the snide comment.

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  • 250. At 04:39am on 20 Aug 2010, Andy Post wrote:

    Mark:

    "[H]e said that he was not commenting and would not comment on the wisdom of building the mosque, merely the right to do so."

    I believe he said that there is a clear First Amendment right to build the Islamic Center at that location.

    He then went on to say that he was making no comment on the wisdom of the project.

    I support him on both counts. The President takes an oath to protect the Constitution. Any action by any government agency to place restrictions on this project is a violation of the Constitution. He's not allowed to let that happen.

    Second, I'm not entirely sure this is a matter for the state of New York, let alone a federal one. This is for New Yorkers to handle. Local government is best positioned to decide in these matters.

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  • 251. At 04:42am on 20 Aug 2010, Andy Post wrote:

    Ref. 248, AndreaNY:

    "Do you see protests of building at this site a violation of their right to do so?"

    Nope, as long as it's kept to a speech as opposed to, say, obstruction, that's a First Amendment right as well, and it must be respected.

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  • 252. At 04:47am on 20 Aug 2010, Andy Post wrote:

    Ref. 246, LucyJ:

    "Simply saying that it is an outcome that could very well happen..."

    Are you suggesting we take action on the mere threat of terror?

    Lucy, did 9/11 terrorize you?

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  • 253. At 08:21am on 20 Aug 2010, Graphis wrote:

    It's not in the least bit "insensitive" to have a mosque near Ground Zero. This is not some Muslims "moving in and taking over"... the mosque (any mosque, anywhere, like churches and synagogues) is built to serve an EXISTING COMMUNITY! There is a large Muslim community in Lower Manhattan who have lived there for decades: why shouldn't they have their own mosque?

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  • 254. At 08:57am on 20 Aug 2010, Matt wrote:

    #250 & #253.

    This.

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  • 255. At 1:42pm on 20 Aug 2010, McJakome wrote:

    #40, 41, 45. At 12:23pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    “I repeat, Americans know the legal rights of the center.

    Thus, Americans did not, in fact, need a lecture on the law.” [AN uppity comment that may have been meant in jest, though I doubt it.]

    Knowing the law and respecting it are two different things. Some Americans do seem to need occasional reminders of the law. Like white southerners, and Irish-American South Bostoners in the 60’s and 70’s and not a few of various ethnicities and beverage preferences today.

    “Gee, thanks, Mr. President. Who knew?” [snide comment]

    “Obama's off to the side, as usual.” [impertinent if not snide comment]

    “But it's okay to highjack the center debate and turn it into a proxy fight against Conservatives? Or in others' cases, "rightwingers"?

    [Hypocritical straw man argument. It is OK for right wingers to hijack the mosque issue for political gain and unjustly attack the president but it is not OK for others to take offense at that.]

    “By the way, labels "us" and "them" are just as unproductive when they're used against majority groups.” [Unless of course you are the one using us and them for divisive political purposes, right?]

    #96 “Respect is a two-way street. You are locked into a one-sided argument and can see only one group being disrespected.” [Hypocritically, you use this against others but do not recognize it in your own words and actions.]

    #99 “Actually, the word was "picayune". ;-) [Definitely snide and repeated here for effect.]

    “Would you really feel better if you got a demarcation line? Would you like latitude and longitude with that? Does it really matter? In the minds of the opponents it's "too close for comfort". Why not let them make their case and see whether they can defend it? Arguing about the exact physical boundary of hallowed ground misses the bigger point, IMHO.”

    How can you state that they are being disrespectful by building the “mosque” on “hallowed ground” and then refuse to state the limits thereof, and then audaciously, and IMHO mendaciously, refuse to say what that consists of.

    Your posts show that you are neither stupid nor illiterate, which means that you are deliberately being evasive, and one can only suspect the worst possible motives for that.

    It seems obvious that you are using the emotional issue for political propaganda purposes, you refuse to define the protected area so that they can not move outside that area and thus put an end to your spurious attacks.

    You remind me of “The Gostak distims the doshes.” It was a work of fiction showing how propagandists with evil intent can use almost any nonsense to work up the passions of the masses.

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  • 256. At 3:13pm on 20 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    255. JMM:

    "It was a work of fiction showing how propagandists with evil intent can use almost any nonsense to work up the passions of the masses."

    **************
    Seeing demons there, are you?

    You give as good as you get, so spare me the lecture.

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  • 257. At 3:27pm on 20 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    251. Andy Post:

    "Do you see protests of building at this site a violation of their right to do so?"

    Nope, as long as it's kept to a speech as opposed to, say, obstruction, that's a First Amendment right as well, and it must be respected.

    ********************

    So why all the hostility to the protests?

    If there's no debate about the legal right to build there (and many opponents preface their remarks with this), why the attempts to silence them?

    I chalk it up to the left-right demons people are fighting. Same fights different players.

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  • 258. At 3:45pm on 20 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    I bet lucyj also visited mount rushmore...the shrine of democracy carved in the sacred black hills.Americans are quick to refer to holcaust and nazis building shrines on the camps, because when they look at themselves, they see americans building shrine on sacred places.Stop isrealifiying yourselves, in usa people can build whatever they want to whereever they want..

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  • 259. At 3:49pm on 20 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    I do not insult their dead and I do not insist they are less than me. If the American Muslim Community wants to bring about peace between the Muslims, Christians and other religions, they would build an interfaith center with sections for all different religions so that we can bond together as many religions under America.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    They just want to give muslims who live there a decent place to pray spend some time.

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  • 260. At 4:41pm on 20 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 261. At 4:52pm on 20 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    257. At 3:27pm on 20 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    251. Andy Post:

    "Do you see protests of building at this site a violation of their right to do so?"

    Nope, as long as it's kept to a speech as opposed to, say, obstruction, that's a First Amendment right as well, and it must be respected.

    ********************

    So why all the hostility to the protests?

    If there's no debate about the legal right to build there (and many opponents preface their remarks with this), why the attempts to silence them?

    I chalk it up to the left-right demons people are fighting. Same fights different players.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So let's get this right, you think the people who demanded that Southern Schools and buses not admit black students had a similar case to those who wanted their legal rights?

    How can you have one section of the populace arguing for one side to lose its rights

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  • 262. At 4:54pm on 20 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    255. At 1:42pm on 20 Aug 2010, JMM wrote:
    #40, 41, 45. At 12:23pm on 18 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    “I repeat, Americans know the legal rights of the center.

    Thus, Americans did not, in fact, need a lecture on the law.” [AN uppity comment that may have been meant in jest, though I doubt it.]

    Knowing the law and respecting it are two different things. Some Americans do seem to need occasional reminders of the law. Like white southerners, and Irish-American South Bostoners in the 60’s and 70’s and not a few of various ethnicities and beverage preferences today.

    “Gee, thanks, Mr. President. Who knew?” [snide comment]

    “Obama's off to the side, as usual.” [impertinent if not snide comment]

    “But it's okay to highjack the center debate and turn it into a proxy fight against Conservatives? Or in others' cases, "rightwingers"?

    [Hypocritical straw man argument. It is OK for right wingers to hijack the mosque issue for political gain and unjustly attack the president but it is not OK for others to take offense at that.]

    “By the way, labels "us" and "them" are just as unproductive when they're used against majority groups.” [Unless of course you are the one using us and them for divisive political purposes, right?]

    #96 “Respect is a two-way street. You are locked into a one-sided argument and can see only one group being disrespected.” [Hypocritically, you use this against others but do not recognize it in your own words and actions.]

    #99 “Actually, the word was "picayune". ;-) [Definitely snide and repeated here for effect.]

    “Would you really feel better if you got a demarcation line? Would you like latitude and longitude with that? Does it really matter? In the minds of the opponents it's "too close for comfort". Why not let them make their case and see whether they can defend it? Arguing about the exact physical boundary of hallowed ground misses the bigger point, IMHO.”

    How can you state that they are being disrespectful by building the “mosque” on “hallowed ground” and then refuse to state the limits thereof, and then audaciously, and IMHO mendaciously, refuse to say what that consists of.

    Your posts show that you are neither stupid nor illiterate, which means that you are deliberately being evasive, and one can only suspect the worst possible motives for that.

    It seems obvious that you are using the emotional issue for political propaganda purposes, you refuse to define the protected area so that they can not move outside that area and thus put an end to your spurious attacks.

    You remind me of “The Gostak distims the doshes.” It was a work of fiction showing how propagandists with evil intent can use almost any nonsense to work up the passions of the masses.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well said.

    What is the reference to this book?

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  • 263. At 4:59pm on 20 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    246. At 01:43am on 20 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:
    So US moslems must not ask for thier rights because others might lynch them?

    And where would you stand in this Lucy, would you like to be one of the crowd?

    Mob rule violence - a terrible stain on the US

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Simon, only you and a select few others would use a word like lynch in today's day and age. Are you trying to bring back certain organizations?

    I'm not saying it is necessarily right, but I can see both sides of the story. Simply saying that it is an outcome that could very well happen...
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I am not the one telling my fellow citizens that they may face "action" if they exercise their legal rights, am I, that's you.

    Mobs used to surround buseses taking black children to school screaming similar threats.

    But hyserical mobs and their lynching threats should play no part in determining somebodies rights

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  • 264. At 5:07pm on 20 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    245. At 01:39am on 20 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:
    And what of you Lucy

    Why do you hate moslems so much? Why do you want to insult their dead and insist they are less than you?

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The answer is obvious. We are at war with radical Islamic terrorists who want to destroy all other religions, democracies, and freedoms. Most recent terrorist attacks have been Muslim radical extremists."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    No most recent attacks have been by Mexican, catholic drug gangs who, as you yourself implied are infiltrating the US.

    But you are not proposing that the catholic church be prohibited from honouring catholic dead are you?

    You are not saying all catholics are responsible for the deaths of over 20,000 people?

    Why is that I wonder, hmmm
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I do not insult their dead and I do not insist they are less than me. If the American Muslim Community wants to bring about peace between the Muslims, Christians and other religions, they would build an interfaith center with sections for all different religions so that we can bond together as many religions under America."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Sorry so if moslems build a mosque they are being divisive? So if jews build a synagogue are they being offensive and divisive as well because they do not incoporate relics and saints?

    You show contempt for you fellow American moslems who died at 9/11. Such picking and chosing among the dead is loathsome.

    You might (though I don't hold my breath) be interested to know that there are German chapels in France and Japanese shrines to their war dead in Cowra (NSW)

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  • 265. At 6:26pm on 20 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    261. Simon21:

    So let's get this right, you think the people who demanded that Southern Schools and buses not admit black students had a similar case to those who wanted their legal rights?

    ********************
    That's right. I was talking about black students' admission to schools....oh, wait. That's you.

    I'm the one talking about the lack of women's rights in the Middle East. You're talking about everything but that.


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  • 266. At 6:32pm on 20 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    Have there been any claims that there is no legal right to build there? Has there been mention of changing laws and/or zoning to prevent it? Of any lawsuits? Of any violence to prevent it from being built?

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  • 267. At 7:27pm on 20 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    265. At 6:26pm on 20 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    261. Simon21:

    So let's get this right, you think the people who demanded that Southern Schools and buses not admit black students had a similar case to those who wanted their legal rights?

    ********************
    That's right. I was talking about black students' admission to schools....oh, wait. That's you.

    I'm the one talking about the lack of women's rights in the Middle East. You're talking about everything but that. "
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well I was actually talking about the new Islam centre which is the purpose of this blog.

    But I forgot your inability to follow an argument or even acknowledge another point.

    And as I recall your issue with "women's rights in the middle east" was solely focussed on Saudi Arabia, of all places, and on Saudi driving laws. Big issue. I mean compared to Saudi's death penalty and lack of democracy (thanks to the US among others.)

    As I recall I tied you up in knots over that one.

    Perhaps that is because I know something about women's rights having worked with those who desperately needed them.

    You on the hand have a most singular view of women.

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  • 268. At 7:32pm on 20 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    266. At 6:32pm on 20 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    Have there been any claims that there is no legal right to build there? Has there been mention of changing laws and/or zoning to prevent it? Of any lawsuits? Of any violence to prevent it from being built?

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well not yet, but at least several bloggers here have indicated that there could be.

    And the US has got something of a record in the informal persecution of minorities

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  • 269. At 9:12pm on 20 Aug 2010, Andy Post wrote:

    Ref. 257, AndreaNY:

    "So why all the hostility to the protests?"

    I am hostile to the idea that government should take action to stop the Cultural Center.

    Otherwise, I think it's a matter for New Yorkers to decide.

    But since you asked... ; )

    Try thinking of it this way. Damages from 9/11 can be summarized as follows:

    * 4 large passenger aircraft, their crews and passengers lost.

    * 2 large office buildings destroyed in the heart of the most valuable real estate in the country.

    * The people who worked above the impact point who were at work in the twin towers at the time.

    * The heavy losses incurred by the NYPD and NYFD.

    * Part of the Pentagon destroyed and the people who were at work in those areas lost.

    We'll never get the people back. That's a loss that we cannot remedy.

    But...

    * The Pentagon has been rebuilt.

    * The aircraft have been replaced.

    * We're in the process of building the Freedom Tower.

    * The NYPD and NYFD are at full strength.

    * The Pentagon is at full strength.

    All in all, 9/11 hurt but did little lasting damage to the nation as a whole. However it seems to me you would like to add more to the butcher's bill:

    * Millions of citizens lost their First Amendment rights as the country retreats from its core ideology.

    That changes the equation entirely. If that happens, 9/11 can be considered one of the most damaging events in U.S. history.

    Why do want to hand al-Qaeda that victory?

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  • 270. At 9:16pm on 20 Aug 2010, Andy Post wrote:

    Ref. 266, AndreaNY:

    "Have there been any claims that there is no legal right to build there? Has there been mention of changing laws and/or zoning to prevent it?"

    Lately, no, and that's taken a lot of the energy out of the issue for me. However, there was the attempt to have the building declared a landmark. That's a de facto zoning change, no?

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  • 271. At 9:36pm on 20 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    Its not about leagal rights or non rights, obama has given a new, more stuble reason which the americans can use to harrass the muslims, a reason which is legal..Now, those who superficially claim to be liberal and openminded also can easily back the more fanatics, conservatives and the tea party members in their campaign against harrasing muslims..I said a few days ago, and I say again, its perfectly legal to harass muslims in usa...The americans are united under one G-d. G-dless come up with legal reasons to support their G-d fearing halves...If the community center is to cater the the muslims in that area, why the stupid demand of building it elsewhere? Will the neworkians or those who question the "wisdom" of building the community center over there, pay for the transportation of the muslims going to the community center?

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  • 272. At 11:09pm on 20 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    270. Andy Post:

    Ref. 266, AndreaNY:

    "Have there been any claims that there is no legal right to build there? Has there been mention of changing laws and/or zoning to prevent it?"

    Lately, no, and that's taken a lot of the energy out of the issue for me.

    ______________

    * Millions of citizens lost their First Amendment rights as the country retreats from its core ideology.


    ******************

    Aside from the landmark move, no rights are being infringed, unless you consider "public opinion" an arbiter of rights in some way.

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  • 273. At 11:27pm on 20 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    271. colonelartist:

    "Its not about leagal rights or non rights,..."

    *****************
    It's very much about rights. A lot of people support it because of their rights to (a) build it wherever permitted and (b) express their religion freely.

    The fact is that no rights are being denied.

    As for "harassing" Muslims, criticism is not quite the same as "harassment". It is legal to criticize and express opinions. I think Muslims are not used to being criticized so directly. Like Christians, they get to hear what everyone thinks of them, and it's often quite ugly.

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  • 274. At 11:58pm on 20 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    As for "harassing" Muslims, criticism is not quite the same as "harassment". It is legal to criticize and express opinions. I think Muslims are not used to being criticized so directly. Like Christians, they get to hear what everyone thinks of them, and it's often quite ugly.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Systematically crtisizing muslims every other month stops being critisizm and starts being harassment especially when it has been happening for the past nine years..In a work place, such "critisism over a period of time against one person by the rest" is defined as harassment. In schools its called bullying. In case of caregiver-child relationship, the systematic crtisism of the caregiver over a period of time is called psychological abuse, And when a spouse systematically crtitisize his or her other half, its called psycholgocial terror..or/and abuse. I think its americans who arent used to critisizm because they react pathetically, their best defense is to compare themselves with the ones who they call savages and uncivilized..Muslims have been routinely and regularly harrassed just because, "they can be harrassed" for the past nine yrs...to misquote james bond film title, "License to harrass the muslims"

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  • 275. At 00:02am on 21 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    273. At 11:27pm on 20 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    271. colonelartist:

    "Its not about leagal rights or non rights,..."

    *****************
    It's very much about rights. A lot of people support it because of their rights to (a) build it wherever permitted and (b) express their religion freely.

    The fact is that no rights are being denied.

    As for "harassing" Muslims, criticism is not quite the same as "harassment". It is legal to criticize and express opinions. I think Muslims are not used to being criticized so directly. Like Christians, they get to hear what everyone thinks of them, and it's often quite ugly.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I haven't heard many in the US call all christians wherever they are terrorists, or, even given the activities of a number of christian ministers, potential child a.....

    And some of he bloogers here definitely imply a physical threat to moslems if the project goes forth

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  • 276. At 00:30am on 21 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    They just want to give muslims who live there a decent place to pray spend some time.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    So why not build an interfaith community center, where Christians, Muslims, Jewish, Buddhists, etc. can all pray alongside each other in different rooms? Then, we could bond...

    I believe in God of the Bible, but if there was an interfaith community center, I would be willing to pray in one room, a Muslim could pray in the next, a Jewish person in the next, and so on...why not?

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  • 277. At 00:30am on 21 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    274. colonelartist:

    "Systematically crtisizing muslims every other month stops being critisizm and starts being harassment especially when it has been happening for the past nine years.."

    *******************

    Christians are criticized routinely. They have to deal with this criticism, and so do Muslims.

    simon, you must be blind if you don't see how Christians are routinely criticized. When the abortion doctor was murdered by a right-to-lifer, Christians were called "murderers" right here. No one batted an eyelid.

    Muslims are not a protected group. Their rights are protected in the US, but they have no special rights that prevent them from having to listen to what others think of them, especially when their critics have the right to express their views. Rights can be tricky things.


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  • 278. At 00:40am on 21 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    colonelwrote: I said a few days ago, and I say again, its perfectly legal to harass muslims in usa..
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Can you name one law which states it is legal to harass a Muslim?

    Didn't think so cause' it doesn't exist except in your mind, which stops at its own bounds.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Andy wrote: Why do want to hand al-Qaeda that victory?

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Is it not a victory for the 9/11 extremist terrorists to have a megamosque (ten years later) built overlooking the site where they murdered thousands of Americans and our allies because they wanted to destroy all other religions, democracies and freedoms?

    After all, wasn't their goal to promote radical extremist terrorism in the name of Allah and Islam?

    The real question is why do you want to give al Qaeda that victory?

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  • 279. At 01:03am on 21 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    Systematically crtisizing muslims every other month stops being critisizm and starts being harassment especially when it has been happening for the past nine years..
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Let's see...

    The Underwear Bomber, who fortantely didn't hurt anyone but himself...

    The attempted Times Square Bomber, which fortantely didn't hurt anyone...

    Najibullah Zazi, who was almost lost by the FBI, but then they found him, which fortantely he didn't hurt anyone...

    That Jordanian guy who illegally was living in Texas and tried to set off a bomb, except the FBI was in on it and so there was really no bomb...

    The terrorists who bombed the UK subways and murdered many innocents...

    The terrorists who did suicide bombs in Russia, murdering many innocents...

    The psychiatrist who shot, harmed and murdered Americans at Fort Hood and he was taken down by an American female, one of the few who happened to have a gun...the guy yelled something about Allah and how he wanted to be a martyr, he was shot and survived, I believe he is paralyzed now with lots of time to think of the evil he has done and he will likely face execution for the many murders he committed against unarmed military members who trusted that he was their brother in arms...

    The soldiers who are double-soldiers and say they are working for the foreign military, but then turn on our and our allies soldiers...

    The list goes on and on and on...

    American Muslims who seek peace should know that we are not against them.

    We are against the terrorists and anything that is a victory for them.

    And as is the current times, in a post 9/11 era, we must be on the alert still...the Islamic terrorism has diminished, but it has not yet passed...we must hope for the best, prepare for the worst...


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  • 280. At 01:30am on 21 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    Muslims have been routinely and regularly harrassed just because, "they can be harrassed" for the past nine yrs...
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Westerners in the Middle East have also routinely and regularly been harrassed just because, "they can be harrassed" for the past nine yrs, as well...

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  • 281. At 02:51am on 21 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    The Islamic extremist terrorists' goal is for all worldly people to convert to radical Islam/live under Sharia laws, and if they refuse to convert or live under Sharia laws, the radical Islamic extremists want them to be slaves/half-persons/pay them taxes and if they refuse that, the radical Islamic extremists will torture or murder them. And when they want people to pay attention to them, instead of simply speaking up, the Islamic terrorists maim and murder people with suicide bombs and say that murdering innocents, including Muslim, other, non religious and Christian innocents, is martydom for their Allah.

    Christians such as myself may preach a little from time to time, spreading the love of Christianity, but I am against forcing people to convert. If someone does not want to be a Christian, that is their own choice and free will. Again, I agree with spreading the message of love, but I am against forcing people to convert.

    I want to believe that the majority of American Muslims are for peace, because they are Americans, too, apparently... I just don't know how to trust? But I guess they have to trust us, too?

    I do not want to see anything that could give satisfaction to al Qaida.

    I really believe that New York needs an interfaith center with all the religions, so we can learn to love, bond and trust...


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  • 282. At 03:52am on 21 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    281. LucyJ:

    "I want to believe that the majority of American Muslims are for peace, because they are Americans, too, apparently... I just don't know how to trust? But I guess they have to trust us, too?"

    *******************************
    Trust is hard after 9/11, especially when we are subjected to a persistent threat of attack and have learned how people are treated in Middle Eastern countries.

    But if you think about the global effort to fight terrorism, the people they track are a very, very specific group. They're hard to find and hide among Muslims around the world. They blend in so no one will know what their true intentions are. Those are the ones to be concerned about. They are a danger to us.

    The good thing is that every level of our law enforcement, from the local beat cop to the head of the FBI, knows they're out there. All our law enforcement is watching out for us. 9/11 triggered a worldwide policing effort to find and stop terrorists. We've come a long way since then.

    Karen Hughes, Bush's former advisor, wrote in the Washington Post today about President Bush's words right after 9/11. He knew that American Muslims, particularly in NY, would need protection from America's reaction. They were innocently living here when the lunatics struck. They shared a religion in name only. President Bush counseled patience and tolerance. (He spoke so well of Muslims that several on the left have called for him to speak out in favor of the mosque. He remains silent, as always.)

    I think you should take a chance and trust, Lucy. There are good and bad people. But most are good or mostly good, right? Islam has some really great beliefs and practices. Real, genuine goodness. As a Christian, you would appreciate them.

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  • 283. At 05:07am on 21 Aug 2010, joeyf wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 284. At 12:51pm on 21 Aug 2010, McJakome wrote:

    265. At 6:26pm on 20 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote
    RE 261:

    "I'm the one talking about the lack of women's rights in the Middle East. You're talking about everything but that."

    On this issue you have my full support. I've lived in the Middle East, and there is no way that the religion*, law [Shariah] or culture is acceptable under our Constitution [to Hades with political correctness].

    *I refer to those aspects of the religion of Islam [and to those similar aspects of religion mentioned in the Christian and Jewish bible] that are incompatible with civil rights as defined in the Constitution, Bill of Rights and interpretations of the same. The three religions themselves are protected as long as they do not attempt to enforce those aspects which are prohibited, q.v.

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  • 285. At 1:03pm on 21 Aug 2010, McJakome wrote:

    280. At 01:30am on 21 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:
    Muslims have been routinely and regularly harrassed just because, "they can be harrassed" for the past nine yrs...
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "Westerners in the Middle East have also routinely and regularly been harrassed just because, "they can be harrassed" for the past nine yrs, as well..."

    You are wrong about this Lucy, it is more like the past 900 years. Christians and Jews were sometimes given a choice "convert or die," or "convert or pay a tax." But they were always second class subjects, or slaves.

    In Egypt the original native Christians are often harrassed and are not allowed to repair old churches or build new ones. Egypt is one of the more "progressive" Islamic countries, too.

    Not to be one sided, Dubai was different. There are two Catholic cathedrals there, a number of churches, and numerous bars and "other" places of entertainment, making it almost homey. You might actually like Dubai, certainly the shopping malls. Modernity and toleration is not completely absent in the Arab Muslim world, though it is rare.

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  • 286. At 1:27pm on 21 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    285. JMM:

    "You might actually like Dubai, certainly the shopping malls."

    ****************
    We only had time to shop in the airport. If that's any indication, it would be a shopper's dream.

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  • 287. At 4:06pm on 21 Aug 2010, McJakome wrote:

    286. At 1:27pm on 21 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    285. JMM:

    "'You might actually like Dubai, certainly the shopping malls.'

    ****************
    We only had time to shop in the airport. If that's any indication, it would be a shopper's dream."

    Did you notice the prices on alcoholic beverages? They were the best buys I've ever seen in any duty free shop, and even cheaper than most liquor stores in the US. However, you have to be a resident foreigner and pay for a drinking licence to legally buy alcohol IN Dubai [though the bars can serve you most anything by the glass if you are not a Muslim].

    They tolerate [foreign] female dress to the extent of allowing what would have gotten women in trouble in the Bible Belt when I was younger [if not to this day]. I have seen women in halter tops and short shorts in the supermarkets there. Though there appears to be a crackdown on that sort of thing these days.

    People [men and women] need to be responsible for their actions and avoid provocation everywhere in the world. I have seen women and men here dressed in a way to arouse interest or comment who then object to people looking at them or commenting about them. [I can't make up my mind what to say about that, what do you think?]

    I am not, of course, advocating abridgement of freedom of expression. I just think people need to be more responsible.

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  • 288. At 4:50pm on 21 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    287. JMM:

    "I have seen women and men here dressed in a way to arouse interest or comment who then object to people looking at them or commenting about them. [I can't make up my mind what to say about that, what do you think?]"

    ******************
    On Zanzibar we dressed appropriately. Respect is important. Complaints about responses to inappropriate dress are not warranted.

    I didn't even wish to leave the airport in Dubai, however. I'm not comfortable with many things there. I'd rather vacation elsewhere.

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  • 289. At 5:07pm on 21 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    The shops sound great, but I am more of a nature-lover than anything. Isn't Dubai supposed to have nice beaches? Do they allow bathing suits on their beaches? (I'm sure nothing like the Brazilians do) They might be scared of my ultrapaledness, as I am one of those people who does not tan, but only freckles or burns. Its the Irish in me. I believe that people there are allowed to hold hands, but not to kiss?

    As for JMM's question about responsibility- well, I don't think things are going to change anytime soon when you have MTV and celebrities dressing the way they do and then kids imitate them. And they always seem to go wild when they grow up. Look at Spears and now Miley Cyrus!

    When I was growing up, as a child of the 80's and mostly 90's, my older brothers loved MTV and watched it all the time, so I ended up watching it, too. The videos were sometimes cheesy, but they were inventive, they were creative, they had a message and most were about the music. All those grunge bands that my brothers loved- Pearl Jam, Bush, Nirvana, Weezer, Radiohead, Aerosmith, Green Day- they ALL wrote their own music and lyrics!!!

    How many artists today have others do it for them anymore? Nowadays, it is about the video and not the music. Most music videos nowadays blend into one big song. I simply cannot watch them. I feel quite grateful and appreciative to have grown up in the 90's, when real music actually written and played by the artist existed and the videos were enlightening. People can write their own music if they really want to. But they have to have the desire to do so...

    There are some wonderful artists today, but just not nearly as many. You have to really look for the ones who actually write their own music and play their own instruments, because too many artists nowadays want others to create for them, when creativity and the fact that we are not all alike is what makes music and lyrics so special...

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  • 290. At 5:08pm on 21 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    Trust is hard after 9/11, especially when we are subjected to a persistent threat of attack and have learned how people are treated in Middle Eastern countries.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The threat was persistent before 9/11 of your lord 2001...the bombing in newyork in the 1990s...If americans hadnt created destruction in muslim countries in the name of some 3000 people of which some are muslims, but forgotten at the moment, neither the nigerian guy or anyone else had to waste their lives...Your country sent military to some muslim countries and created lackeys in others, after 2001, if it hadnt not sent the military, plenty of G-d fearing and non G-d fearing people in usa, who would have readily taken the job on to themselves...If tomorrow the american pay rolly dictators start listening to their own people, and confront usa , the "extremists and the fanaticals" will not have to waste their lives...They would sit in their homes, and do pretty much what you and the rest less fantaticals, and more fanaticals do...collectively harassing americans, and then calling it critisism..

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  • 291. At 5:31pm on 21 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    To me, trust is built on friendship, honesty, respect and it is earned over time when you get to know people.

    For the people in the cities, they are more likely to see Muslims. In small towns like mine, there are no Muslims that live here. So it is very different for people who actually know Muslims in the city vs. people who have never met any Muslims, except heard about them in the news, tv or media.

    Hence, the distrust, combined with other factors.

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  • 292. At 5:44pm on 21 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    291. LucyJ:

    "To me, trust is built on friendship, honesty, respect and it is earned over time when you get to know people."

    ****************
    That's hard, you're right, when you don't get to meet many Muslims. I'm fortunate in that way.

    And, unfortunately, too, there really are aspects not to like.

    My own feeling is that trust must be earned, but there needs to be an opportunity given to earn that trust. I'm sure, in time, you'll be exposed to more information about Muslims.

    Until then, I'd say that Muslim-Americans have some bridge-building to do in the US. They're not like all other immigrants. They're like immigrants from countries who were at war with the US. That's a special case.

    They have to win you over, too.

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  • 293. At 5:47pm on 21 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    Of course, I have heard that in the last ten years, Europe's Muslim population has grown very rapidly?

    Europeans are probably more used to Muslims than us?

    Didn't they try to build a megamosque in London, that was turned down?

    USA's past immigrants have been mostly Christians...today, our latest immigrants are varied- we have more Muslims and more hispanics, of which many are Catholic...our new immigrants are changing our population and in return, our country...but this is shown more in the cities...in the little towns, life is still as it used to be in many ways...

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  • 294. At 6:48pm on 21 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    USA's past immigrants have been mostly Christians...today, our latest immigrants are varied- we have more Muslims and more hispanics, of which many are Catholic...our new immigrants are changing our population and in return, our country...but this is shown more in the cities...in the little towns, life is still as it used to be in many ways...
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Its not the first time, that the new immigrants changed the population of usa, before white man came, the poplulation was all red men, women and children....Change is the only constant, I dont know who said that, but it wasnt obama, he only said, change, yes, we can, and before him, bush said, 9/11 changed americans...That which is supposed to happen will happen...

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  • 295. At 7:05pm on 21 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    Until then, I'd say that Muslim-Americans have some bridge-building to do in the US. They're not like all other immigrants. They're like immigrants from countries who were at war with the US. That's a special case.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    What do you say to the migrants from no so great anymore britian? Their country ruled you for quite a long time, what do you say to the mexicans, not the illegals, what do you say to germans, or japanese, or cubans, or vietnamise or russian immigrants? Muslims are like all these imigrants..Lets for fun, agree that ben laden was behind all this, and he hired some saudis, an egyptian, one from UAE and the rest saudi arabians...the muslims killed, included citizens of banglades pakistan.If we apply yours and others logic, then its the saudi and the egyptian and people from UAE who should not be like the other immigrants, however not only your country enjoy close relations to these countries but hardly saudi or egyptian or from UAE are immigrants are singled out...Your argument, like your porn argument is pathetic...If you want to be disrcrimatory against muslims, atleast use some good reasons...

    http://www.statesman.com/news/nation/muslims-pray-daily-at-9-11muslims-pray-daily-at-9-11-attack-site-870700.html?cxtype=ynews_rss

    Muslims pray daily at 9/11 attack site in Pentagon
    Amid New York's mosque debate, officials say no one objects to Islamic services in chapel built over the rubble where plane slammed into the Pentagon.

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  • 296. At 8:37pm on 21 Aug 2010, Sidney Cordle wrote:

    So Mark Mardell says "On the revitalised right, it is an unspoken assumption that "American" means conservative, white and Christian." How dare you associate Christianity with racism. Do you not know that not only does the Bible say that in Chrsit there is neither Jew nor Greek, nmale nor female..." Jesus was also a coloured non white. The black Christian community in America is just as powerful as the white Christian community. Prominent national Chrsitian leaders like Creflo Dollar are black. Rev. Martin Luther King was a Christian black leader. Your comments have no bearing at all in reality. If you have any integrity you will apologise and withdraw the remark.

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  • 297. At 8:38pm on 21 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    What about verses such as these?
    Are they really taken seriously?

    "Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them.” Koran 2:191
    “Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood.” Koran 9:123
    “When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them.” Koran 9:5
    “Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable.” Koran 3:85
    “The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them.”... Koran 9:30
    “Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam” Koran 5:33
    “Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies.” Koran 22:19
    “The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them.” Koran 8:65
    “Muslims must not take the infidels as friends.” Koran 3:28
    “Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an.” Koran 8:12
    “Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorize the infidels.” Koran 8:60

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  • 298. At 8:57pm on 21 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    Miss USA, who happens to be Muslim, apparently does not support a megamosque being built overlooking Ground Zero...

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/muslim_miss_usa_move_the_mosque_C0VlK0arNhioO9OPJ560FO

    The Imam on an overseas trip says he wants to "Americanize" Islam...

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/zero_imam_mover_sheik_er_Saqw4jTP8glUr79BDxahqM

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  • 299. At 9:01pm on 21 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    Do you not know that not only does the Bible say that in Chrsit there is neither Jew nor Greek, nmale nor female..." Jesus was also a coloured non white.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    And Jesus said that he was created for the jews...not the gentile...

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  • 300. At 9:02pm on 21 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    Miss USA clearly has respect for the people of America...you go, grrrrl!!! We will be cheering you on!!! Good luck!!! :)

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  • 301. At 9:13pm on 21 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    http://detnews.com/article/20100820/POLITICS03/8200426/1022/rss10

    Go Miss USA!!!!!!! You are awesome!!!!! Not being afraid to speak up or swim against the tide- that is being an American!!!!!!

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  • 302. At 9:25pm on 21 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    295. colonelartist:

    What do you say to the migrants from no so great anymore britian?

    *****************
    I would say the following: The Brits have earned our respect and our trust. They have proven themselves to be good allies. Theirs is a culture we can relate to.

    As for the others, they have assimiliated well. When their countries were at war with us, we were not as welcoming. But, eventually, we moved on.

    You may not like the fact that Muslims carry baggage here from abroad -- ex., radicalism that led to an attack on us, opposing values with respect to individual freedoms, etc. -- but that is the truth. They are assimiliating into our culture like all others who come here.

    I don't have to like your culture and you don't have to like mine. I'm where I want to be, however, where my country's values are consistent with my own.

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  • 303. At 9:53pm on 21 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    Andreany, your above post is as pathetic as your porn vs sharian law posts, I will let yours to answer you to this..However, one thing, Your country's values are not consistent with each other, let alone with their citizens.

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  • 304. At 00:18am on 22 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    301. At 9:13pm on 21 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:
    http://detnews.com/article/20100820/POLITICS03/8200426/1022/rss10

    Go Miss USA!!!!!!! You are awesome!!!!! Not being afraid to speak up or swim against the tide- that is being an American!!!!!!
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Why would you think all moslems think the same.? Do you hik all black people think the same

    And who are you to arrogantly decide who is American and who is not?

    When did you become queen of the US

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  • 305. At 00:29am on 22 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    5. At 1:03pm on 21 Aug 2010, JMM wrote:
    280. At 01:30am on 21 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:
    Muslims have been routinely and regularly harrassed just because, "they can be harrassed" for the past nine yrs...
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "Westerners in the Middle East have also routinely and regularly been harrassed just because, "they can be harrassed" for the past nine yrs, as well..."

    You are wrong about this Lucy, it is more like the past 900 years. Christians and Jews were sometimes given a choice "convert or die," or "convert or pay a tax." But they were always second class subjects, or slaves. "
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Oh is that right, fascinating. Less than 60 years ago certain christians were bundling up jews to the death camps were they not.

    Was that an exercise in tolerance?

    Oh and a few years ago to be the wrong sort of Christian in the the wrong area could see you murdered, or your house burnt down - with your family in it.

    And christians in the COngo and Uganda are still murdering and raping so do spare us.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    In Egypt the original native Christians are often harrassed and are not allowed to repair old churches or build new ones. Egypt is one of the more "progressive" Islamic countries, too."
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    True! So why does the US government give the Egyptian government so much lovely money so it can torture its own people?

    Any idea?

    I mean given the US loves Democracy n'al why does it deny it to Egyptians?
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Not to be one sided, Dubai was different. There are two Catholic cathedrals there, a number of churches, and numerous bars and "other" places of entertainment, making it almost homey. You might actually like Dubai, certainly the shopping malls. Modernity"
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Oh yeah shopping malls, bars, great, heaven. Modernity, no democracy of course but hey "Prada"

    What about those horrible Samis, Koories, Guaranis etc who don't have shopping malls and bars - how terrible!!!!

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  • 306. At 00:33am on 22 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    302. At 9:25pm on 21 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    295. colonelartist:

    What do you say to the migrants from no so great anymore britian?

    *****************
    I would say the following: The Brits have earned our respect and our trust. They have proven themselves to be good allies. Theirs is a culture we can relate to.

    As for the others, they have assimiliated well. When their countries were at war with us, we were not as welcoming. But, eventually, we moved on.

    You may not like the fact that Muslims carry baggage here from abroad -- ex., radicalism that led to an attack on us, opposing values with respect to individual freedoms, etc. -- but that is the truth. They are assimiliating into our culture like all others who come here.

    I don't have to like your culture and you don't have to like mine. I'm where I want to be, however, where my country's values are consistent with my own."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I know many Americans have a mental illness when it comes to Moslems. Lucy has it, but I will try. A moslem is someone who beleives in Islam. It is not a type of human being.

    There are plenty of White American moslems (and lots of black) who have coverted and there will be more. Islam is not spread and spreading by promiscuity only.

    And never has done.


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  • 307. At 00:59am on 22 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    301. LucyJ:

    Go Miss USA!!!!!!! You are awesome!!!!! Not being afraid to speak up or swim against the tide- that is being an American!!!!!!

    *****************8
    It is certainly something, isn't it?

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  • 308. At 01:07am on 22 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    303.colonelartist:

    "Andreany, your above post is as pathetic as your porn vs sharian law posts..."

    *******************

    Always the porn with you. The only woman's right you are able to talk about is the right to not be in porn movies.

    I'm beginning to realize that you can mete out the criticism but you cannot take it. Your biggest problem with Americans' sense of superiority is your own.

    Sorry, but in the US, you have to earn the respect you mistakenly feel entitled to.

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  • 309. At 01:18am on 22 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    When did you become queen of the US

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Simon, all females in the West and East should be treated like Queens...

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  • 310. At 01:40am on 22 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 311. At 01:42am on 22 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    309. At 01:18am on 22 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:
    When did you become queen of the US

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Simon, all females in the West and East should be treated like Queens..."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'm a republican

    But to return to the point - not when it comes to determining who or who is not australian, american, swiss or anyone else

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  • 312. At 02:26am on 22 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    I have an idea for another Saudi TV series. A comedy called, "Blame America!". Every little problem, down to a lost button, would be blamed on the US.

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  • 313. At 03:35am on 22 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    298. LucyJ:

    Here's another article about the imam building the center. Vey interesting man.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/nyregion/22imam.html

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  • 314. At 07:27am on 22 Aug 2010, IgorSlamov wrote:


    I HATE XENOPHOBIA, PETTY-MINDEDNESS AND CHAUVINISM just as much as anyone else.
    However I ALSO HATE ISLAM, and I will now tell you why.

    In this critique of Islam I will quote no figures, specify no dates, mention no names, and report no gossip.
    I will report only what I have personally experienced when traveling in Mohammedan lands.
    • The only time I have been evicted for walking around at home in shorts was in a Mohammedan country (Morocco).
    • The only time I have ever seen people trying to burn a large animal alive (a tortoise) was in a Mohammedan country (Turkey). (To be perfectly honest, they weren’t trying very hard. It was more like tormenting it with fire. )
    • The only time I was ever pelted with stones was in a Mohammedan country (Egypt).
    • The only time I have seen boys tormenting injured birds was in a Mohammedan country (Algeria).
    • The only time I was ever threatened with a firearm was in a Mohammedan country (Libya). It turned out the shotgun was unloaded, so I wasn't really in any danger. He just wanted to scare me off so he could rape my girlfriend. (And then there was that time in Mexico, on the Acapulco road. But he was a policeman – and I was cursing at him.)
    • The only time I have seen puppies dying in a gutter was in a Mohammedan country (Egypt).
    • The only time a complete stranger has ever scolded me in public because of my appearance (my hair was too long) was in a Mohammedan country (Turkey).
    I am middle-aged, and I have spent in all no more than twelve months or so in Mohammedan countries.
    Please believe me -- when I say I hate Islam, that is not a sign of prejudice.
    PS. The only times I have ever been physically assaulted was in Washington, DC -- twice, and both times by black hooligans.

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  • 315. At 10:07am on 22 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    312. At 02:26am on 22 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    I have an idea for another Saudi TV series. A comedy called, "Blame America!". Every little problem, down to a lost button, would be blamed on the US.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I have a better one from the US - "How we hate the Saudis, here are some free torture devices to use on your own people"

    Oh and here are some names of people who want that awful thing - democracy."

    Long winded but realistic.

    As I say the US attitude towards the Middle East is characterised by what an only be described as mental illness.

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  • 316. At 10:10am on 22 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    314. At 07:27am on 22 Aug 2010, IgorSlamov wrote:

    I HATE XENOPHOBIA, PETTY-MINDEDNESS AND CHAUVINISM just as much as anyone else.
    However I ALSO HATE ISLAM, and I will now tell you why.

    In this critique of Islam I will quote no figures, specify no dates, mention no names, and report no gossip.
    I will report only what I have personally experienced when traveling in Mohammedan lands.
    • The only time I have been evicted for walking around at home in shorts was in a Mohammedan country (Morocco).
    • The only time I have ever seen people trying to burn a large animal alive (a tortoise) was in a Mohammedan country (Turkey). (To be perfectly honest, they weren’t trying very hard. It was more like tormenting it with fire. )
    • The only time I was ever pelted with stones was in a Mohammedan country (Egypt).
    • The only time I have seen boys tormenting injured birds was in a Mohammedan country (Algeria).
    • The only time I was ever threatened with a firearm was in a Mohammedan country (Libya). It turned out the shotgun was unloaded, so I wasn't really in any danger. He just wanted to scare me off so he could rape my girlfriend. (And then there was that time in Mexico, on the Acapulco road. But he was a policeman – and I was cursing at him.)
    • The only time I have seen puppies dying in a gutter was in a Mohammedan country (Egypt).
    • The only time a complete stranger has ever scolded me in public because of my appearance (my hair was too long) was in a Mohammedan country (Turkey).
    I am middle-aged, and I have spent in all no more than twelve months or so in Mohammedan countries.
    Please believe me -- when I say I hate Islam, that is not a sign of prejudice.
    PS. The only times I have ever been physically assaulted was in Washington, DC -- twice, and both times by black hooligans"
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Not a sign of prejudice, no not much. You don't seem to get on with people - US, Mexico, Morrocco, Libya. Maybe you shouldn't actually travel?

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  • 317. At 1:13pm on 22 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    315. Simon21:

    "As I say the US attitude towards the Middle East is characterised by what an only be described as mental illness."

    ********************
    From the mentally ill's perspective, it's always everyone else who's mentally ill.

    Like a tornado that just goes round and round, furiously throwing up obstacles and never really moving anywhere, that is the logic employed to make everything about everyone else, especially the US.

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  • 318. At 1:15pm on 22 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    315. Simon21:

    "I have a better one from the US - "How we hate the Saudis, here are some free torture devices to use on your own people"

    ******************
    Sure, the Saudis can run an episode, "We torture, but it's all the Americans' fault!"

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  • 319. At 1:57pm on 22 Aug 2010, keith09 wrote:

    The right to freedom of religion must allow for a place of worship in your own neighbourhood.

    it is not right to hold a community responsible for the actions of a few criminals who have done wrong. remember "As we forgive those who trespass against us..."

    and for those Christians who don't think Muslims have the right to have a place of worship, I suggest you meditate on Christ's words:

    Matthew 25:45
    He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

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  • 320. At 4:14pm on 22 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    319, Of course, they have a right to religion. This is not about the right to worship, but about the location. Many of us are simply asking for the megamosque to be built further away from Ground Zero. Does it really matter where one worships as long as they are worshipping?
    Why does it have to be so close?

    314, That sounds like intense experiences. Know not all experiences are the same, but it reconfirms that some places are simply too dangerous to visit if you are a Westerner, that being said, that you are a male, too, much more dangerous for the female to go galivating about the Middle East, in fact, we probably would scare some of the men there, as well, because we can be quite brave, sometimes too brave and not understanding the customs...makes me want to stick to other Western nations, would love to visit Ireland, Norway and maybe even Austraila...

    313, I guess he is caught in between a rock and a hard place. People accuse his motives here and they accuse his motives there. Although they seem suspicious in those countries of anything we do, anyway. When Obama gave that speech to the Muslim world after he was elected, they did not seem really that enthused...of course, there were only males in the audience...do not really know what the females thought...(only half the population)

    318, Makes me think of a BBC article I just read.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11050427

    Malaysian authorities are grappling with a growing problem of abandoned babies.

    Sixty-five infants have been found so far this year, and many were dead by the time they were discovered.

    The issue has touched a raw nerve in the Muslim-majority country.

    The gruesome finds have encouraged some observers to point the finger at familiar targets: internet pornography, bad parenting, and an over-exposure to sexually liberal western culture.




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  • 321. At 5:58pm on 22 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    320. LucyJ:

    He'll have to be very open about his funding. There are people who are going to protest loudly if he takes money from the Muslim Brotherhood, for example, and they will probably stay on top of this.

    The problem, I believe, is that some funders of mosques send their own agenda with the money. This imam's agenda seems very positive to me.

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  • 322. At 6:28pm on 22 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    320. At 4:14pm on 22 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:
    319, Of course, they have a right to religion. This is not about the right to worship, but about the location. Many of us are simply asking for the megamosque to be built further away from Ground Zero. Does it really matter where one worships as long as they are worshipping?
    Why does it have to be so close?"
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Because they have bought the land. End of story.

    Why should they be dicriminated against?

    And calling something a "megamosque" makes you seem ridiculous. There is no such thing.

    Your christianocentric view of every other religion in the world is patent.

    But at least you have now had the decency to admit it is not being built on ground zero.

    So some lies have been abandoned.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    314, That sounds like intense experiences. Know not all experiences are the same, but it reconfirms that some places are simply too dangerous to visit if you are a Westerner, that being said, that you are a male, too, much more dangerous for the female to go galivating about the Middle East, in fact, we probably would scare some of the men there, as well, because we can be quite brave, sometimes too brave and not understanding the customs...makes me want to stick to other Western nations, would love to visit Ireland, Norway and maybe even Austraila..."
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well if you started sprouting some of your views about Moslems, immigrants in Australia you could find yourself arrested for racial incitement.

    Australians are not permitted to abuse each other racially and call it "free speech".
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    313, I guess he is caught in between a rock and a hard place. People accuse his motives here and they accuse his motives there. Although they seem suspicious in those countries of anything we do, anyway. When Obama gave that speech to the Muslim world after he was elected, they did not seem really that enthused...of course, there were only males in the audience...do not really know what the females thought...(only half the population)"
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Yes how many females have been president of the US er none

    How many vice presidents er none

    How many moslem PMs have been female - three. SOunds like the US has a bit of catching up to do.

    What country came up with the idea of "feminazi" ah yes the US again.

    And how many US women are used in its massive porn trade - thousands.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    318, Makes me think of a BBC article I just read.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11050427

    Malaysian authorities are grappling with a growing problem of abandoned babies.

    Sixty-five infants have been found so far this year, and many were dead by the time they were discovered.

    The issue has touched a raw nerve in the Muslim-majority country.

    The gruesome finds have encouraged some observers to point the finger at familiar targets: internet pornography, bad parenting, and an over-exposure to sexually liberal western culture.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well what do you expect? Would this not have touched a raw nerve in the US?

    And what has this got to do with anything? A complete red herring.

    Unless along with your other slurs you are now claiming moslem families hate their own children.

    I wonder if any moslem has the courage to live near to you. God knows what they would endure. I would think you do not have too many black neighbours either (these things usually come together).


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  • 323. At 6:29pm on 22 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    318. At 1:15pm on 22 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    315. Simon21:

    "I have a better one from the US - "How we hate the Saudis, here are some free torture devices to use on your own people"

    ******************
    Sure, the Saudis can run an episode, "We torture, but it's all the Americans' fault!"
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    After all they pay for it! Let's hope the Americans get a nice return on their dollars :)



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  • 324. At 6:36pm on 22 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    317. At 1:13pm on 22 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    315. Simon21:

    "As I say the US attitude towards the Middle East is characterised by what an only be described as mental illness."

    ********************
    From the mentally ill's perspective, it's always everyone else who's mentally ill.

    Like a tornado that just goes round and round, furiously throwing up obstacles and never really moving anywhere, that is the logic employed to make everything about everyone else, especially the US."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Andrea Andrea simply weeping that everyone is "beastly" to the US doesn't alter the facs.

    Your county's leaders have admitted supporting these regimes. They are happily photographed with the leaders smiling and shaking hands. The Congress votes the money (openly), the CIA has said openly it flies prisoners to Syria to torture (and then criticises Syria for er torture). Syria of all places.


    But hey you don't hear the screams so I suppose it doesn't matter does it.

    Poor poor picked upon US, poor Saudi victims too, but they's arabs.

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  • 325. At 6:40pm on 22 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    322. Simon21: "How many moslem PMs have been female - three. SOunds like the US has a bit of catching up to do"

    *************
    Yes, for every right we take away from a US woman, we move that much closer to catching up with the Middle East.

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  • 326. At 6:44pm on 22 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    321. At 5:58pm on 22 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    320. LucyJ:

    He'll have to be very open about his funding. There are people who are going to protest loudly if he takes money from the Muslim Brotherhood, for example, and they will probably stay on top of this."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well he cannot do that since that is illegal.

    Incidently I known facts are awkward things but do you know where the founder of the Moslem Brotherhood got his original idea for Egypt to be presidential democracy from?

    He had stayed in the country and came back convinced Egypt should follow the same route.

    But he forgot the cold war and found no one was interested in Democracy. A least not for Arabs.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    The problem, I believe, is that some funders of mosques send their own agenda with the money. This imam's agenda seems very positive to me."
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well what is wrong with that. Zionist fanatics from the US send money to Israel to be spent on dispossessing Palestinians and stealing land.

    And they can claim tax relief for helping to ethnically cleanse a US client state

    Good deal eh.

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  • 327. At 6:52pm on 22 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 328. At 7:00pm on 22 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    Yes, for every right we take away from a US woman, we move that much closer to catching up with the Middle East.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Why women in middle east, why not the women in amazon tribes, or pygmy tribes in africa, or mountain tribes of nepal, tibet or the bible belt area in usa..

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  • 329. At 8:19pm on 22 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    I wonder if any moslem has the courage to live near to you. God knows what they would endure. I would think you do not have too many black neighbours either (these things usually come together).

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Actually, it is true that I have not been around much other ethnicities, except when visiting the cities. There's no Muslims that live here and there are one or two black families, but the rest is Caucasian. (except our occasional foreign exchange students) I was friends with a black girl growing up, as our parents worked together and it was my first experience with someone who wasn't white. She and I got along very well and even today, if our folks see each other, they ask how the other is doing. When you truly becoming friends with someone, you don't think about whether they wear glasses, have freckles, skin color, etc. cause' you think of them as a person and not as physical description.

    I have been to several cities and seen many ethnicities there. I like the grandeur of the cities, the latest up to date technology and so on, but I am somewhat frightened by the homeless people, which makes me sad, especially if it is children or teenagers. Washington D.C. is an awesome place, but it was there out on a corner, I first saw transexuals. As a child, could not understand why men dressed up like that and it is a picture I will never forget. If I came across that again, I would just hafta ignore it...

    But that's the great thing about being in the country where there isn't much- not many people want to move here cause' its not as exciting as the big cities with all their glamour and mystique, as things are simple, slower and not as complicated here. One of my college city friends came home with me one time and got scared because she got no reception and that had never happened to her before. I reassured her that all would be alright and twas.

    That being said, I work with many different people and if I worked with a black person or a Muslim person, I would treat them the same as I would a white person. I am very professional and don't talk politics, etc. with people I work with. Only talk about such things outside of work and only sometimes. Not as much as one would think.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well if you started sprouting some of your views about Moslems, immigrants in Australia you could find yourself arrested for racial incitement.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Just lately I have been reading more about Austraila and it sounds like such a beautiful country, especially the wildlife and landscapes, although there are a lot of deadly creatures to be conscious of and avoid there, as well. I am not interested in spouting my views in other countries, as it wouldn't probabaly lead to any good and I would prefer to blend in, so don't hafta worry about that. Would just go out, drink, party and have a good time.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Yes how many females have been president of the US er none

    How many vice presidents er none

    How many moslem PMs have been female - three. SOunds like the US has a bit of catching up to do.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Our time is coming. Just wait and see...one day, you will be very impressed...continue to underestimate us all you want, we are the underdogs and we will surprise you...

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well what do you expect? Would this not have touched a raw nerve in the US?

    And what has this got to do with anything? A complete red herring.

    Unless along with your other slurs you are now claiming moslem families hate their own children.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Of course not. I just had to throw that in there because it is preposterous that foreign women are abandoning their babies due to American or European porn. I am sure there are many reasons, but porn produced by other countries is not to blame for child abandonment of foreigners.

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  • 330. At 8:36pm on 22 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    A lot has to do with how one is raised and then when that child gets older, he or she gets to make choices on their own.

    My parents always encouraged me to play and be friends with other ethnicities, but at the same time, they told me as I got older, never to date or marry other ethnicities, for the "children's sake," so they would not get teased. Today, I know several couples of different ethnicities and they almost seem to thrive off of the fact that they are different. Opposites attract and so on. Of course, the children usually take the dominant genes and the recessive genes only come out now and then.

    That being said, times are different now than they were even when I grew up. After all, a half black and half white man is President now- it doesn't get bigger than that.

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  • 331. At 8:38pm on 22 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    328. colonelartist:

    "Why women in middle east, why not the women in amazon tribes, or pygmy tribes in africa, or mountain tribes of nepal, tibet or the bible belt area in usa.."

    *******************
    Why not women in the Middle East?

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  • 332. At 8:39pm on 22 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    One last thing I would like to throw in: often, people look at whites as the root cause. But it is not always so. Look at the movie, Lakeview Terrace, with Samuel L. Jackson, who plays a man who does not like the couple next door because they are two different races. He tries to intimidate them to stay apart, but in the end, his scheme falls apart...

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  • 333. At 9:09pm on 22 Aug 2010, american grizzly wrote:

    I think the mosque is the perfect answer as these Muslims shoot themselves in the foot. Muslims ask for sensitivity, yet don't extend any. Well maybe the World Trade Centers offended them. Perhaps this mosque will offend someone of the same mindset as Osama. Did it ever occur to this enlightened bunch. Maybe? Who knows?

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  • 334. At 9:12pm on 22 Aug 2010, american grizzly wrote:

    Lucy Obama chose black on his census form. Why? Funny. Just like some Catholics living in Northern Ireland, claims he is Irish. No matter what the UK government tell hims. We choose our identity.

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  • 335. At 9:24pm on 22 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    329. At 8:19pm on 22 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:
    I wonder if any moslem has the courage to live near to you. God knows what they would endure. I would think you do not have too many black neighbours either (these things usually come together).

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Actually, it is true that I have not been around much other ethnicities, except when visiting the cities. There's no Muslims that live here and there are one or two black families, but the rest is Caucasian. (except our occasional foreign exchange students) I was friends with a black girl growing up, as our parents worked together and it was my first experience with someone who wasn't white. She and I got along very well and even today, if our folks see each other, they ask how the other is doing. When you truly becoming friends with someone, you don't think about whether they wear glasses, have freckles, skin color, etc. cause' you think of them as a person and not as physical description."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well I tend to think that way whether I know them or not.

    If someone is a human being and not severly psychotic or to be fair severly disabled or ill (I will not pretend to know how it feels to endure a severe physical handicap) - I take Descartes view that all humans are basically the same in their needs and desires.

    E.g.no human likes suffering and very few like violence for the sake of it.

    And when religion comes up against money and power, then religion loses every time.

    So when one is solemnly told otherwise one knows one is being sold a rancid pup.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I have been to several cities and seen many ethnicities there. I like the grandeur of the cities, the latest up to date technology and so on, but I am somewhat frightened by the homeless people, which makes me sad, especially if it is children or teenagers. Washington D.C. is an awesome place, but it was there out on a corner, I first saw transexuals. As a child, could not understand why men dressed up like that and it is a picture I will never forget. If I came across that again, I would just hafta ignore it...

    But that's the great thing about being in the country where there isn't much- not many people want to move here cause' its not as exciting as the big cities with all their glamour and mystique, as things are simple, slower and not as complicated here. One of my college city friends came home with me one time and got scared because she got no reception and that had never happened to her before. I reassured her that all would be alright and twas.

    That being said, I work with many different people and if I worked with a black person or a Muslim person, I would treat them the same as I would a white person. I am very professional and don't talk politics, etc. with people I work with. Only talk about such things outside of work and only sometimes. Not as much as one would think.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well I expect that as a minimum.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    if you started sprouting some of your views about Moslems, immigrants in Australia you could find yourself arrested for racial incitement.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Just lately I have been reading more about Austraila and it sounds like such a beautiful country, especially the wildlife and landscapes, although there are a lot of deadly creatures to be conscious of and avoid there, as well. I am not interested in spouting my views in other countries, as it wouldn't probabaly lead to any good and I would prefer to blend in, so don't hafta worry about that. Would just go out, drink, party and have a good time.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Fine but as a nation of immigrants and one whose 4 heads of state are now all female (2 British born and 1 American, only one the Governor General, is actually a native born Autralian) and one whose native people are black - they are very hot on racial incitment.

    Australia incidently was the first Western country to have a jewish head of state (and jewish army head) - decades ahead of Israel.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Yes how many females have been president of the US er none

    How many vice presidents er none

    How many moslem PMs have been female - three. SOunds like the US has a bit of catching up to do.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Our time is coming. Just wait and see...one day, you will be very impressed...continue to underestimate us all you want, we are the underdogs and we will surprise you...

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Nothing to be proud of.

    The only significant thing about Obama's election in terms of colour is that it hadn't happened before given black people have been in the US in numbers for over 200 years - much longer than mass Italian or Irish immigrants.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well what do you expect? Would this not have touched a raw nerve in the US?

    And what has this got to do with anything? A complete red herring.

    Unless along with your other slurs you are now claiming moslem families hate their own children.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Of course not. I just had to throw that in there because it is preposterous that foreign women are abandoning their babies due to American or European porn. I am sure there are many reasons, but porn produced by other countries is not to blame for child abandonment of foreigners.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I am no so sure.

    I think the sexualisation of children - a growing and serious problem in the West (a major UK deparment store has recently been forced to abandon a range of suggestive underclothing for children which it was selling - quite openly) and one that is of course reflected in the porn industry - a major theme - has lead to the exploitation of children around the world.

    The authorities admit the trafficking of children from Africa and Asia is a major problem - so bad in fact that a recent expose by the British Sunday Times had to black out the UK locations where this hideous trade took place since it was warned if it did not ped---- from across the country would centre on those areas. And for the UK read every country in the West, including Australia.

    Personally I beleive the problem is connected of course wih globalisation but also the way that we in the West use sex to sell almost everything - thus planting and reinforcing the idea that sex and material success are interwined.

    Sex and money are practically an unbeatable coalition in our culture.

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  • 336. At 9:25pm on 22 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    331. At 8:38pm on 22 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    328. colonelartist:

    "Why women in middle east, why not the women in amazon tribes, or pygmy tribes in africa, or mountain tribes of nepal, tibet or the bible belt area in usa.."

    *******************
    Why not women in the Middle East?
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Ah Anrea's wonderful "Middleeast" the mythical land of all evil.

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  • 337. At 9:26pm on 22 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    parents always encouraged me to play and be friends with other ethnicities, but at the same time, they told me as I got older, never to date or marry other ethnicities, for the "children's sake," so they would not get teased.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Lucyj up until 1967 in your country it was inter-racial marriage was illegal..The state may have made it legal, but people can still come up with other reasons, (as you and andreany do with the case of "megamosque and muslims) against the interracial marriages..

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  • 338. At 9:30pm on 22 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    330. At 8:36pm on 22 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:
    A
    That being said, times are different now than they were even when I grew up. After all, a half black and half white man is President now- it doesn't get bigger than that."
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Why is that big? Aren't you outraged it has taken so long? I was appalled when one heard people in the US slapping themsleves on the back for appointing a black man president.

    They have only been in the country for over 200 years after all. Wow big deal.

    They are still underpresented in the COngress as are women.

    If you compare the present congress to one in 1870 it is stunning to see how little has changed. Still largely the same old crew in charge.

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  • 339. At 01:37am on 23 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    up until 1967 in your country it was inter-racial marriage was illegal..The state may have made it legal, but people can still come up with other reasons, (as you and andreany do with the case of "megamosque and muslims) against the interracial marriages..
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I never said I was against it, simply that my parents were against it. That were their generation, in their time and my grandparents' generation, as well. There are several couples I know like this and they are very nice people. To each be his or her own. Although I am naturally attracted to other white people the most.

    Simon, in all honesty, people can watch legal porn, but they don't have to. It is one of those things you can choose to not watch. So instead of looking at the people making legal porn, perhaps you should be looking at the people buying illegal porn...child trafficking is a grotesque crime and needs to be punishable by life in prison...

    Meanwhile, the passions grow stronger over the Ground Zero megamosque...

    There are all sorts of rallies in NYC...

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100822/ap_on_re_us/us_nyc_mosque

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100822/ts_nm/us_usa_mosque



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  • 340. At 04:47am on 23 Aug 2010, cl123456 wrote:

    Muslims have every right to build a mosque where they want to, however the former site of the world trade center has become a sacred site to many if not the majority of Americans. Community meetings must be held to determine if the local community and other concerned parties have objections to the proposed plans. Make no mistake this is not a religious issue but rather a sacred site issue and one of honor and respect. Of more concern however would be why do people want to build a mosque here and where is the money coming from. If it is coming from radical Islamic factions then it becomes a political issue (and unfortunately also religious).

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  • 341. At 10:06am on 23 Aug 2010, spagan wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 342. At 11:47am on 23 Aug 2010, spagan wrote:

    At least President Obama hasn't used that well kent phrase used by current Member of the House of Lords, Baroness Deech - "Send them home!" - although in defence of the xenophobic lady, she was referring to Scots rather than some other minority group.
    She is a "crossbencher". Is she perchance the first BNP Member of the Upper House?
    Slainte Mhor

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  • 343. At 9:33pm on 23 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    340. At 04:47am on 23 Aug 2010, cl123456 wrote:
    Muslims have every right to build a mosque where they want to, however the former site of the world trade center has become a sacred site to many if not the majority of Americans. Community meetings must be held to determine if the local community and other concerned parties have objections to the proposed plans. Make no mistake this is not a religious issue but rather a sacred site issue and one of honor and respect. Of more concern however would be why do people want to build a mosque here and where is the money coming from. If it is coming from radical Islamic factions then it becomes a political issue (and unfortunately also religious).
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    It is not being built on the site. It can hadly be since another building is being built there.

    It has been commented that some Americans have got spatial sickness. They have no concept of distance.

    You are not arrested for bursting into the Pentagon if you happen to drive past it.

    American tourists are not arrested for trespassing in the throne room if they stand at the gate.

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  • 344. At 9:36pm on 23 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    339. At 01:37am on 23 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:
    up until 1967 in your country it was inter-racial marriage was illegal..The state may have made it legal, but people can still come up with other reasons, (as you and andreany do with the case of "megamosque and muslims) against the interracial marriages..
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I never said I was against it, simply that my parents were against it. That were their generation, in their time and my grandparents' generation, as well. There are several couples I know like this and they are very nice people. To each be his or her own. Although I am naturally attracted to other white people the most.

    Simon, in all honesty, people can watch legal porn, but they don't have to. It is one of those things you can choose to not watch. So instead of looking at the people making legal porn, perhaps you should be looking at the people buying illegal porn...child trafficking is a grotesque crime and needs to be punishable by life in prison...

    Meanwhile, the passions grow stronger over the Ground Zero megamosque...

    There are all sorts of rallies in NYC...

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100822/ap_on_re_us/us_nyc_mosque

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100822/ts_nm/us_usa_mosque
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I know may Americans hate moslems. They hate jews,black people and gays too.

    This protest is a rascist right wing beatup. I didn't know how far away the actual mosque, basketball court, dining hall are from the site.

    Many Americans obviously suffer from spatial sickness


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  • 345. At 10:14pm on 23 Aug 2010, GeoffWard wrote:

    I'm trying to get a handle on the The World Trade Centre symbology (symbolism?). It is not in its mode of use whilst it existed. It is in its mode of destruction. The motivations of the men that destroyed it are bound up in religous dogma but more in the fight-back against the incursions of the infidel. Motivations and counter-motivations have mutated and become confused by all/both parties, and certainly by many posters on this blog.
    That which is constant is:
    (i) the pain of the families of people that died at the World Trade Centre and the refered pain of the 'western world'. [btw. WTC is/was a symbol of world integration, at least in one sphere of activity].
    (ii) the Constitution of the United States Of America
    (iii) the generalized and specific dislike for the USA that is recent and widespread across the world.
    This being so, the dislike of much that is American in policy and practice around the world will not be swayed by the building (or otherwise) of this mosque; the muslims of New York have the right to build within their property this mosque and the President was entirely in order to remind his citizens of their freedoms under the Constitution; the muslim community should ask themselves deep questions about their motivations for initiating this build knowing that there is a symbolism in the adjacent destruction that extends beyond the religous and across the United States.
    If there is a statement on the record from the muslim community of New York and, particularly, from the muslim owners/renters of the property, it would go some long way to the bringing of clarity to the discussion. Is it an issue puffed by the media, or is it an issue over which the muslims of New York are prepared to 'go to the wall'?

    Immediately subsequent to the destruction of the World Trade Centre, etc, my American academic friends on the world conference circuit were isolated in countries all over the world, pending the re-opening of American airports. We discussed through many hours the dangers of an American over-response. Unfortunately, the USA had Bush as the incumbent President, history happened, and the goodwill of the world towards the USA has been in decline ever since.

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  • 346. At 10:53pm on 23 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    Simon,

    It is funny that you say you don't like it when Americans stereotype others, yet you sterotype us? Don't you realize you are doing that?
    Lol...

    Take a deep breath...inhale...exhale...and relax...

    Such is the way the world works...

    Maybe its time for people from other countries to realize that Americans are just people trying to make their way through life and that we are no less/more good or evil than most, we just happen to have a lot of opportunities, but we must work hard, too, if we want our country to succeed and if you want your country to succeed, you must work hard, too. And we must care, as well. It must be working hard and also caring at the same time. Because if no one cares, then what is the point? We all have to work hard, be motivated and care...

    But when it comes down to it, if others want to hate, then they will hate, because they can and because that is what they desire, those dark feelings, but I refuse to let it affect my love for America because that is a constant and no matter how many politicians have abused or used our beautiful America, America is still America, it is still our country tis of thee, and for this, I must have absolute loyalty, cause' for me, there is no other.

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  • 347. At 11:15pm on 23 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    346. At 10:53pm on 23 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:
    Simon,

    It is funny that you say you don't like it when Americans stereotype others, yet you sterotype us? Don't you realize you are doing that?
    Lol...

    Take a deep breath...inhale...exhale...and relax...

    Such is the way the world works..."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well.. I am not the one claiming that moslem Americans are somehow second class Americans with second class rights.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Maybe its time for people from other countries to realize that Americans are just people trying to make their way through life and that we are no less/more good or evil than most, we just happen to have a lot of opportunities, but we must work hard, too, if we want our country to succeed and if you want your country to succeed, you must work hard, too. And we must care, as well. It must be working hard and also caring at the same time. Because if no one cares, then what is the point? We all have to work hard, be motivated and care..."
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    And a good way to get a country moving is not for some of its citizens to presume they have more rights than other citizens (look at Israel), because of religion, colour or language.
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    But when it comes down to it, if others want to hate, then they will hate, because they can and because that is what they desire, those dark feelings, but I refuse to let it affect my love for America because that is a constant and no matter how many politicians have abused or used our beautiful America, America is still America, it is still our country tis of thee, and for this, I must have absolute loyalty, cause' for me, there is no other."
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    FIne but why keep accusing other Americans of being disloyal, or somehow non-American?

    Moslem Americans have nothing to prove. They do not have to justify themselves any more than Black or hispanic Americans do.

    This is the trouble with so called patriots, they spend half their time judging their fellow citizens.

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  • 348. At 11:18pm on 23 Aug 2010, Simon21 wrote:

    345. At 10:14pm on 23 Aug 2010, GeoffWard wrote:
    I'm trying to get a handle on the The World Trade Centre symbology (symbolism?). It is not in its mode of use whilst it existed. It is in its mode of destruction. The motivations of the men that destroyed it are bound up in religous dogma but more in the fight-back against the incursions of the infidel. Motivations and counter-motivations have mutated and become confused by all/both parties, and certainly by many posters on this blog.
    That which is constant is:
    (i) the pain of the families of people that died at the World Trade Centre and the refered pain of the 'western world'. [btw. WTC is/was a symbol of world integration, at least in one sphere of activity].
    (ii) the Constitution of the United States Of America
    (iii) the generalized and specific dislike for the USA that is recent and widespread across the world.
    This being so, the dislike of much that is American in policy and practice around the world will not be swayed by the building (or otherwise) of this mosque; the muslims of New York have the right to build within their property this mosque and the President was entirely in order to remind his citizens of their freedoms under the Constitution; the muslim community should ask themselves deep questions about their motivations for initiating this build knowing that there is a symbolism in the adjacent destruction that extends beyond the religous and across the United States.
    If there is a statement on the record from the muslim community of New York and, particularly, from the muslim owners/renters of the property, it would go some long way to the bringing of clarity to the discussion. Is it an issue puffed by the media, or is it an issue over which the muslims of New York are prepared to 'go to the wall'?
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The Cordoba project and its Sufi leader togeher with his jewish and christian colleagues (who are on the board of the mosque project) have repeatedly expalined themselves.

    But they are under no obligation to do so and however they may come across their legal rights must be upheld.

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  • 349. At 00:22am on 24 Aug 2010, McJakome wrote:

    Given the new information and news from New York, I feel compelled to moderate my position on the Islamic Cultural Center.

    As a constitutional loyalist, I can’t change my opinion that if they have the money, land and all appropriate local approvals and permits they have a right to build the center [with or without mosque]. However with public support at less than 50% and some people, especially victims of the 9/11 attack, against by a large majority, they really need to rethink location.

    If the intention really is reconciliation between Islam and the West, this is a strange way of promoting it. If the intention of the opponents really is neither racist nor Islamophobic, then they must make their hallowed zone’s limits clear. Moreover, they really have to insist that porn shops and other unhallowed things also be relocated.

    I’d say a 2 or 3 block hallowed zone should be sufficient. And the strip clubs, etc. really have to go to avoid the look of hypocrisy.

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  • 350. At 00:51am on 24 Aug 2010, GeoffWard wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 351. At 01:00am on 24 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    I agree, JMM. The state of New York needs to buy the hallowed ground of Ground Zero, so that it is for everybody of the USA/and beyond; and so that we can pay our respects with honor. We could build memorials to the 9/11 victims, whether they had faith or not. They could put also put gift shops, restaurants, etc.

    But it is up to the state of New York...

    New York, please buy the 9/11 hallowed ground and declare it state property!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  • 352. At 07:50am on 24 Aug 2010, KScurmudgeon wrote:

    351. At 01:00am on 24 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    I agree, JMM. The state of New York needs to buy the hallowed ground of Ground Zero, so that it is for everybody of the USA/and beyond; and so that we can pay our respects with honor. We could build memorials to the 9/11 victims, whether they had faith or not. They could put also put gift shops, restaurants, etc.
    But it is up to the state of New York...
    New York, please buy the 9/11 hallowed ground and declare it state property!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    _______________________________

    Lucy, I am appalled. Gift Shops on hallowed ground? Restaurants where you can eat and look out over the pit that was our greatest monument to Capitalism? Mickey Mouse ears and I hate Osama banners for the kiddies?
    Tee shirts with liners crashing into the Towers on them?

    The time was when commercialization was considered, well, coarse, and not to be applied to 'sacred things'. But you probably will not understand.

    How much of Manhattan do you propose our deficit-spending government (no State government can afford those prices) should our government take out of circulation? And what uses should be permitted? Roller coasters with Airline seats? A new theater for the Rockettes! And of course, a ballpark - the all American pastime. Or is that financial gaming?

    grumblegrump....

    KScurmudgeon

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  • 353. At 11:40am on 24 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    352. KScurmudgeon:

    "Lucy, I am appalled. Gift Shops on hallowed ground? Restaurants where you can eat and look out over the pit that was our greatest monument to Capitalism? Mickey Mouse ears and I hate Osama banners for the kiddies?
    Tee shirts with liners crashing into the Towers on them?"

    *************************
    If an extremist Mickey and Disney cohorts had hijacked those planes and continued to plot attacks, I hardly think we'd see any Mickey Mouse icons there. Nice try, though.

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  • 354. At 11:42am on 24 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    351. LucyJ:

    "New York, please buy the 9/11 hallowed ground and declare it state property!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "

    *****************

    This will not happen.

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  • 355. At 1:33pm on 24 Aug 2010, GeoffWard wrote:

    From what I have read, the building of a mosque within the property has nothing to do with its location vis-a-vis the old World Trade Centre site.

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  • 356. At 2:14pm on 24 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    349. JMM:

    "I’d say a 2 or 3 block hallowed zone should be sufficient. And the strip clubs, etc. really have to go to avoid the look of hypocrisy."

    ****************
    How would those businesses be kept away? By protesting them?

    It's the link between Islam and Islamic extremists (the face of 9/11 to many Americans) that is the problem here, IMO. Until that is adequately worked through in Americans' minds, we'll remain stuck.

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  • 357. At 9:44pm on 24 Aug 2010, McJakome wrote:

    356. At 2:14pm on 24 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
    349. JMM:

    "How would those businesses be kept away? By protesting them?"

    It is called "zoning." Texans[from what I saw there] don't know about it, but in Massachusetts it is frequently used. The "Golden Arches" were kept away from historic Plymouth and Nantucket by zoning. In the end they were allowed to open restaurants in traditional "period style" buildings with discrete signs [traditional "inn style"] and no visible plastic.

    Since there is already a "no new Greek Orthodox church" policy, a no new religious establishment policy would be fair, politically correct and not solely aimed at one group [Muslims].

    Perhaps the Greek Orthodox, having been robbed of their own church by the 9/11 attack, could be included in the cultural center as reparation?

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  • 358. At 10:20pm on 24 Aug 2010, TimmyUSA wrote:

    As a U.S. citizen, I am appalled this idea of building a mosque in downtown Manhattan is an issue at all, let alone that it has become a political one. It is disgusting the Republican Party is attempting to use religious and ethnic hatred as a "wedge issue" to turn the voting public against President Obama and the Democrats going into mid-term elections. What makes it even more disgusting is that, to some degree, their efforts are working.

    The personal freedom to peaceably exercise one's choice of religion is fundamental to the liberties Americans have enjoyed for over 200 years. The 1st Amendment of the Constitution of the United States states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

    Unfortunately, by supporting opposition to the building of this mosque, it appears many American citizens want to turn their back on the principals which formerly made the U.S.A. a beacon of liberty to the world. Popular opinion notwithstanding, why shouldn't the president speak out and be a voice of conscious? As the president, Mr. Obama swore an oath to "preserve, protect, and defend" the U.S. Constitution...even that pesky 1st Amendment part. So can anyone explain how by speaking out against religious bigotry is he doing anything but his sworn duty?


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  • 359. At 11:12pm on 24 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    If the intention really is reconciliation between Islam and the West, this is a strange way of promoting it. If the intention of the opponents really is neither racist nor Islamophobic, then they must make their hallowed zone’s limits clear. Moreover, they really have to insist that porn shops and other unhallowed things also be relocated.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The real intention is to provide the muslims of that area a place to socialize, and pray......Its the anti community centerists who first made it an issue between "us and them" then to reconciliation between islan and west and now are lost in their own narratives...Genius, islam in the west is western islam...its not universal...if you havent understood this main point even after talking about islam for 9 yrs, then the chances are you are not going to understand anything about islam..If you universalize islam the way your one liner, "islam and west" has done, then you are forever going to go in circles..Look closely around you, not one islamic state is similar to any other...If you think that you can compare the person who wants to build the community center in newyork with me, than let me enlighten you, No..although we are muslims, but our similiarities end where our culture starts...You cannot even compare the christians in usa with christians in italy or in india or in pakistan, their religon is christianity but their everyday life is what their culture is...

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  • 360. At 11:37pm on 24 Aug 2010, McJakome wrote:

    358. At 10:20pm on 24 Aug 2010, TimmyUSA

    I agree with most of what you wrote, especially about how disgusting it is for the GOP/FOX/TEA Party to use religion and an attack on the US Constitution as a wedge issue for political gain. I also object to the left using social wedge issues.

    The problem with the Islamic Cultural Center, is that it is promoted as a way to bring Islam and the West [or at least the US] together. It seems to be achieving the opposite purpose, driving Islam and the West farther apart.

    This seems to be another instance of Muslims, who are famously sensitive to any perceived slight, being totally insensitive to the feelings of others.

    While the Constitution is quite clear, and President Obama has bravely supported it at potentially great cost, sensitivity to those affected by 9/11 requires that the cultural center consider relocating to a less sensitive [or at least more defensible*] location.

    *No pun intended, but go ahead and make the most of it.

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  • 361. At 00:24am on 25 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    It was sad that Miss USA did not at least make it to the Top Fifteen (at least, she didn't fall, I guess)...makes me wonder if there was something else involved there...after all, if she did make it to the top fifteen, she would have had to wear a bikini...and when they showed her at the beginning in international costume, all it showed was a close-up of her face while all the other girls full international costumes were shown...Miss Mexico deserved to win because she had the best answer and the best dress of the final five...although if it was up to me, I would have given the title to Miss Ireland, Ukraine, Jamaica, France or Albania...

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    colonelartist wrote: Look closely around you, not one islamic state is similar to any othe...
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In general, the Islamic countries have varying degrees of Islamistism, so no, not all are alike, but some seem similar...doesn't it seem like Pakistan and Afghanistan are a lot alike?

    And its not just cause' they both have stan' in their names and lots of mountains...

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  • 362. At 00:27am on 25 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    You cannot even compare the christians in usa with christians in italy or in india or in pakistan, their religon is christianity but their everyday life is what their culture is...
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You can still compare us- after all, we read the Bible, believe in the Holy Trinity- the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, even if there are some different versions, very similar. Just cause' we have different cultures doesn't mean we can't connect...

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  • 363. At 00:45am on 25 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    I agree with most of what you wrote, especially about how disgusting it is for the GOP/FOX/TEA Party to use religion and an attack on the US Constitution as a wedge issue for political gain. I also object to the left using social wedge issues.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Sorry, but wasn't President Obama kind of asking for it by wading into the debate himself? President Obama did not have to say anything- but he did because he felt he should. Well, that's all fine and dandy, but if President Obama is willing to wade into one of the biggest controversies of the year, he should have expected Americans and foreigners to talk cause' he put himself square into it...there is going to be a huge rally on 9/11 for the opponents against building a mosque overlooking Ground Zero and it is not only open to Americans, but foreigners, including that Dutch guy going as well as Newt G...twill be a huge get-together...they got my support all the way from the Midwest!!!

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    So can anyone explain how by speaking out against religious bigotry is he doing anything but his sworn duty?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Let me ask you a question Timmy.

    What if there was another terrorist attack on NYC and it turned out that the terrorists were Islamic radicals and had been praying or preaching at the future megamosque overlooking Ground Zero, the spot where the innocents lay for all eternity?
    Would this bother you?

    Here's another.
    What if the Islamic terrorists claim that they have defeated the USA by putting a megamosque overlooking the site of Ground Zero, where possible future recruits could be radicalized? What if radicalization of Americans and foreigners in mosques was the Islamic terrorists' sole purpose to combat the USA from within and this mosque fits right into their scheme?
    Would this bother you?

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  • 364. At 01:30am on 25 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    colonelartist wrote: Look closely around you, not one islamic state is similar to any othe...
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I guess I can understand some of the reasoning with this. There may be some Muslim countries like Iran that don't like USA, but there are also some like Turkey and India that do like USA, so it goes both ways...

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  • 365. At 01:42am on 25 Aug 2010, GeoffWard wrote:

    I have been researching the evolution of this furore as it reveals the best of the USA and the worst of the USA.
    .
    The best side is the manner of Obama’s reminder to the American people that the Constitution exists to protect the rights of all individuals – and this is emphasized by most of the less histrionic postings on this site.
    .
    The worst side of the American people is exposed by Justin Elliott, reporting in Salon. His article, accessible in full via a web search on the Cordoba Project, offers us a time-line showing how the "ground zero mosque" fear mongering began and records the vitriolic build-up of American hard-right media manipulation. It also has been stoked by the likes of MarcusAureliusII on this site.
    .
    If progressive muslim Americans want to build an Islamic community centre a quarter of a mile away from the location of the old World Trade Centre, this should have raised little ire because a mosque exists only a quarter of a mile further away, and places of worship from many religions is a feature of life in this part of New York.
    .
    OK, calling it the Cordoba Project is a bit crass as it alludes to the Moslem era of control of the Iberian Peninsula – a period of social, racial and religious domination and periodic slavery for Christians and Jews alike (The name is now changed). But the intent, in New York, was a process of worship in friendship – entirely uncontroversial under normal circumstances. So what happened to cause 7 out of 10 Americans to suddenly view it as a toxic project?
    .
    Even Fox found little problem with the development initially., but 6 months later, in May of this year, the villain of the piece, Ms. Pamela Geller, a viciously anti-muslim, far-right American Jew, had blogged her way to infamy (this is the same Geller who suggested that Malcolm X fathered Barack Obama!). The Murdoch press then ran with the slant through the New York Post. Together, they railroaded the co-operative development process which involved the imam, jewish leaders, the mayor’s office, WTC survivors’family, and even the FBI!
    .
    Suddenly and within a week in early May, the ‘anti’ press (especially the NY Post), building up Geller blogs, were full of ‘the WTC mosque’, ‘The Monster Mosque pushes ahead in the shadow of the WTC Islamic death & destruction’, ‘Stop Islamization of America’, and Stop the 911 Mosque’. Geller set up an email & phone blitz of the Mayor’s Office. This was a co-ordinated hate-campaign., culminating in the NY Post’s declaration that the mosque would be launched on 11 September 2010 – a blatant lie. Ms. Palin, Fox, and the swathe of right-wing politics and media stoked the issue for all they were worth – some gunning for muslims, some gunning for the President.
    .
    The hate-campaign became fixed in the consciousness of America and the world…… and here we are, trying to understand why we are all feeling like this.
    .
    How does it feel to be so seriously manipulated?

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  • 366. At 11:06am on 25 Aug 2010, global_citizen wrote:

    As a Brit who has spent alot of time in U.S.A. these are my thoughts:

    The American Judo-Christian Corporate Religious Right Militarized Axis (Also known as the Republican Party) have the following agenda:

    1. To extend American influence overseas and to minimize international influence on American policy

    2. To have exclusive access & control over as many raw materials/natural resources as possible.

    3. To grow the membership of acceptable religions (Judaism/Christianity), and marginalize non-acceptable ones.

    4. To facilitate the interests of American Corporations, in regards to taxation, trade and international markets.

    5. To always have the most powerful Army, and extensive military R&D so they can use their international military presence to ensure governments who do not comply with diplomacy, can be co-erced, or changed if necessary.

    6. To have a clear external body who constitutes 'the enemy'and a real and current threat as a way of radicalization and mobilization.

    7. Positioning all above policies as being patriotic, and in the best interests of the nation, and the only possible thought process for god-fearing Americans.

    8. To marginalize internal dissent by depicting any views that disagree as being unpatriotic and socialist. (the two biggest slurs in american politics, although being muslim is quickly joining them. therefore the ultimate slur would be a Non American, Socialist Muslim telling Americans what to do...

    The AJCCRRMA currently controls the major media channels in U.S.A. and when seen through this paradigm, all behaviour is innately predictable.

    Since the shock of losing the last election, the media is being used to position Obama as Non American (born in Kenya) Socialist & a Muslim. His ratings are tanking, and the polling is hurting the democrats.

    The Democrats would have been in power for 1 term during which the worst of the economic crisis would have occurred, and they can be blamed for its longevity.

    The AJCCRRMA are very good at this game, you just need to look at the voting patterns in congress, to see how well they play.

    All they need now is a young, charismatic figurehead who has the passion to mobilize the masses, and the intellect to win over the centre ground. Palin had the first, not the second = Once they find that person, I fear for anyone who does not sign up to the agenda of the AJCCRRMA.

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  • 367. At 12:37pm on 25 Aug 2010, MacTurk wrote:

    First, the proposed building is NOT a mosque, it is a cultural centre - modelled on the Jewish 92nd Street Y - which has a prayer room in the design. The imam who is trying to build this centre, a Mr Feisal Abdul Rauf, is on record as saying that the reason they do not want to build a mosque is because they would not be able to exclude people they consider dangerous or radical from it. With a cultural centre, they can.

    Second, it is two city blocks from "Ground Zero", and will not be visible from there.

    At 04:21am on 18 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote "Any argument about it which in any way equivocates about terrorism is unacceptable to most Americans". Now if only that had been true for the forty-odd years of violence in Northern Ireland. I lost count of the number of times that Irish Taoisigh(Prime Ministers) pleaded for an end to the supply of money and arms flowing to the IRA from the USA. Neither the American people nor the American government did anything effective about this until the September 11th attack.

    Now, of course, they have discovered terrorism, so everything is different.

    At 07:15am on 18 Aug 2010, SangerM wrote "..if that mosque and education center is offensive to the majority of families and people who survived 9/11, then it should not be built there". Has anyone ever bothered to ask ALL the relatives of the victims of September 11th what they think? And would the right wing loons notice anyway? Most of them do not consider New York to be part of their "Real America" anyway.

    Further, SangerM wrote "I believe most Americans will continue to distrust any Muslim who doesn't denounce and repudiate all of the hateful, evil acts done in the name of Allah" When will Christians denounce and repudiate all of the hateful, evil acts done in the name of their sky god? I mean, there is the Inquisition, the Crusades, the institutionalised child abuser protection scheme which is the Catholic church, the Magdalene Laundry system, etc, disgustingly etc.
    Having lost some forty seconds of my life reading SangerM's contribution, I am forced to conclude he lives in a far-right bubble, and should really get out more.

    37.At 12:04pm on 18 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote "34, I've got news for you Tommy Tim, from this American's and I think many other Americans' point of view, British are rapidly moving from the camp of "us" to the camp of "them." Ah good, now we are getting back to Bush jnr and his theory that "You are either with us or against us". Nothing like a 2dimensional view of the world for producing sensible public policy, is there?
    As for MAII's comments about Britain, the EU, "Eurabia" and sharia courts, could I suggest that he stop reading "The Daily Mail"?

    If you believe, as an American, that your constitution is relevant, then you have to be on the side of those, be they Muslim, Jewish or Christian, who are trying to build this centre. You either have freedom of religious expression for all, or you do not.

    Once you start qualifying it, who decides? Which sect or group is unpopular this week? Who deserves to lose their constitutional rights this month because I think I do not like them?

    If the ex-Burlington Coat Factory building is "Hallowed Ground" because part of the landing gear of one of the attacking planes fell through the roof, why so little interest in closing the strip clubs and adult video shops that surround it? And are all the Muslim food vendors going to be sent north of 128th Street, because their presence might be "hurtful" to Gingritch and Palin?

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  • 368. At 2:59pm on 25 Aug 2010, MacTurk wrote:

    Also, please remember that 300 of the victims of the the attack were Muslim. They were citizens of the country, or Green Card holders.

    When you examine the names and photos of the victims, you realize that the attack on the World Trade Center was an assault on the world itself. The ongoing bigotry and vacuous, amoral, hate mongering of Gingritch, et al, traduces the memories of the victims.

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  • 369. At 3:21pm on 25 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    365. GeoffWard: "How does it feel to be so seriously manipulated?"

    *******************

    A better question of opponents: How does it feel to be so easily dismissed?

    Has it occurred to you that FoxNews is not as influential as its detractors insist -- over and over and over again -- that it is? There is an unhealthy obsession with the rightwing media, which gives rise to conspiracy theories and a penchant to dismiss, outright, positions that it holds.

    This behavior is crazier than you realize.

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  • 370. At 11:13pm on 25 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    The mosque row also exposes Islam on two sides.

    One) Islam as a peaceful religion that seeks creation and wants to recruit more people for peace

    Two) Islamic terrorism that seeks destruction of all other religions, peoples and cultures and wants to recruit more people for terrorism

    Three)Are they building this to be truly peaceful?

    Four)Are they building this to spite USA?

    Five)As it was called Cordoba, is this referring to all faiths eventually living peacefully together with all as equals?

    Six) As it was called Cordoba, is this referring to when Islamics initially conquested the Spanish city from the Christians and made them live as half-people, paying special taxes and banning them from certain sites?

    Seven) Will this lead to better and more trustworthy relations?

    Eight) Will this lead to worse and less trustworthy relations?

    Nine) Is Islam willing to talk about their religion with the community?

    Ten) Is Islam purposefully shut off from the community due to not wanting to speak to others about their religion and not facing controversies head-on?

    As I cannot see into their hearts, there is no way for me or other Americans to ultimately know what is really being seeked...it could go either way...they may seek creation...or they may seek destruction...

    The truth is, no matter how seemingly peaceful they are, to watch a megamosque being built to overlook 9/11 Ground Zero would be incredibly painful for Americans like myself (literally, it makes my heart ache when I think about it) and it will likely becoming a rallying cry carried far into the wind, from sea to shining sea...

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  • 371. At 11:15pm on 25 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    The mosque row also exposes Islam on two sides.

    One) Islam as a peaceful religion that seeks creation and wants to recruit more people for peace

    Two) Islamic terrorism that seeks destruction of all other religions, peoples and cultures and wants to recruit more people for terrorism

    Three)Are they building this to be truly peaceful?

    Four)Are they building this to spite USA?

    Five)As it was called Cordoba, is this referring to all faiths eventually living peacefully together with all as equals?

    Six) As it was called Cordoba, is this referring to when Islamics initially conquested the Spanish city from the Christians and made them live as half-people, paying special taxes and banning them from certain sites?

    Seven) Will this lead to better and more trustworthy relations?

    Eight) Will this lead to worse and less trustworthy relations?

    Nine) Is Islam willing to talk about their religion with the community?

    Ten) Is Islam purposefully shut off from the community due to not wanting to speak to others about their religion and not facing controversies head-on?

    As I cannot see into their hearts, there is no way for me or other Americans to ultimately know what is really being seeked...it could go either way...they may seek creation...or they may seek destruction...

    The truth is, no matter how seemingly peaceful they are, to watch a megamosque being built to overlook 9/11 Ground Zero would be incredibly painful for Americans like myself (literally, it makes my heart ache when I think about it) and it will likely becoming a rallying cry carried far into the wind...

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  • 372. At 11:15pm on 25 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    The mosque row also exposes Islam on two sides.

    One) Islam as a peaceful religion that seeks creation and wants to recruit more people for peace

    Two) Islamic terrorism that seeks destruction of all other religions, peoples and cultures and wants to recruit more people for terrorism

    Three)Are they building this to be truly peaceful?

    Four)Are they building this to spite USA?

    Five)As it was called Cordoba, is this referring to all faiths eventually living peacefully together with all as equals?

    Six) As it was called Cordoba, is this referring to when Islamics initially conquested the Spanish city from the Christians and made them live as half-people, paying special taxes and banning them from certain sites?

    Seven) Will this lead to better and more trustworthy relations?

    Eight) Will this lead to worse and less trustworthy relations?

    Nine) Is Islam willing to talk about their religion with the community?

    Ten) Is Islam purposefully shut off from the community due to not wanting to speak to others about their religion and not facing controversies head-on?

    As I cannot see into their hearts, there is no way for me or other Americans to ultimately know what is really being seeked...it could go either way...they may seek creation...or they may seek destruction...

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  • 373. At 03:58am on 26 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    Did not mean to send three of the same posts. Thought I just sent one. Whoops! Sorrry...

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  • 374. At 1:38pm on 26 Aug 2010, Michael Paquette wrote:

    I'm really getting to hate the word 'insensitive'. It's the buzz word for anti-mosque builders. It's a word to use to replace 'bigotry' and 'hate' and 'revenge'. It's a way to say 'Islam does not deserve the same place in America as any other religion does'.

    What about the 'insensitivity' that is being rained down on muslim Americans? This just says 'you are not as American as we are'.

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  • 375. At 2:40pm on 26 Aug 2010, chronophobe wrote:

    This is just sooo funny: Jon Stewart Follows The Money; Claims That Watching Fox News Funds ‘Terror Mosque’.

    Bet you Foxy followers didn't know you were funding terror, eh?

    Chortle.

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  • 376. At 5:17pm on 26 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    LucyJ and co, the problem is that you demand the answers, and are not willing to accept the answers you get...the room inside the community center, which has been generously called megamosque is being built to provide the local muslims of that area a place where they can perform their islamic praying rituals five times a day....and also on their holy day....where they can come and pray their extra night prayers in the month of ramadan..Next time when you ask your priets when he goes with a money basket at the end of the sunday church sermon, if he knew where the money came from, or go to synagouge and ask the rabi where he gets his funds from, is the time you can ask muslims where the funds for this community center will come from..until then, stop asking this question.If you want to live in usa, then you have to follow its laws, otherwise, you can move to bible belt area, or utah, or idaho..

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  • 377. At 11:51pm on 26 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    colonelartist, the Bible belt, Utah and Idaho are USA.

    Lyrics from the song With God on Our Side by Bob Dylan,
    "Oh my name it is nothin'
    My age it means less
    The country I come from
    Is called the Midwest
    I's taught and brought up there
    The laws to abide
    And the land that I live in
    Has God on its side."

    From Bob's When You Gonna Wake Up,
    "God don't make no promises that He don't keep.
    You got some big dreams, baby, but in order to do dream you gotta still be asleep.
    You can't take it with you and you know that it's too worthless to be sold, They tell you, 'Time is money,' as if your life was worth its weight in gold. When you gonna wake up?"

    I accept the answers, but I question the intentions and what good/harm it may cause...you seem to support the megamosque, colonel, what do you think of the symbolism of its being called Cordoba? Do they want to call it that because of that Spanish city when the Islamics conquered the other religions to take over the city long ago or is it later when the Islamics were less powerful and all the religions lived happily ever after together as equals?

    How do we know this is not considered a conquest?

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  • 378. At 11:51pm on 26 Aug 2010, AndreaNY wrote:

    374. Michael Paquette:

    "I'm really getting to hate the word 'insensitive'. It's the buzz word for anti-mosque builders. It's a word to use to replace 'bigotry' and 'hate' and 'revenge'. It's a way to say 'Islam does not deserve the same place in America as any other religion does'"

    ****************
    It's also a word that has led to a lot of political correctness. It's a favorite of the left. So, you might want to reconsider that one.

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  • 379. At 1:34pm on 27 Aug 2010, McJakome wrote:

    375. At 2:40pm on 26 Aug 2010, chronophobe wrote:
    "This is just sooo funny: Jon Stewart Follows The Money; Claims That Watching Fox News Funds ‘Terror Mosque’.

    Bet you Foxy followers didn't know you were funding terror, eh?

    Chortle."

    Thanks for the hysterical link. I stopped watching FOX for two reasons, the "evil" manipulation and the blatant stupidity.

    I hope LucyJ and AndreaNY will watch the whole thing and then explain the relationship between the Saudi and FOX.

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  • 380. At 3:42pm on 27 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    I hope LucyJ and AndreaNY will watch the whole thing and then explain the relationship between the Saudi and FOX.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Ordinary people should never allow themselves to be carried away to the point of no return by the politics of politicians...unless they want to reach where politicians reach, in the world of money and connections..

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  • 381. At 4:00pm on 27 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    How do we know this is not considered a conquest?
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You can consider it a conquest if you like, but to normal people conquest means more of what usa has done to iraq and afghanistan, they conquered the countries, and completely destroyed the infra-structure of one country, and ignored the other by leasing it to contractors and cia pay rollies...who invest the little money world gives, back in the west...to the muslims of that area, its will be a community center, they had always wanted....you can call it a megamosque or a conquest mosque, it doesnt matter to them...at all..

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  • 382. At 5:12pm on 27 Aug 2010, colonelartist wrote:

    I accept the answers, but I question the intentions and what good/harm it may cause...you seem to support the megamosque, colonel, what do you think of the symbolism of its being called Cordoba?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    People who have the have carved faces of four people took land from the red indians, should first protest those carvings, since it was done by a KKK member, and then question the name, palestine, texas, before they should think about questioning the name of the community center.

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  • 383. At 11:31pm on 27 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    So you want to redirect the question and change the subject?
    Not such as easy question to answer, eh?

    BTW, thought you might like to read this article, since you sometimes like to talk about Muslims in America...

    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/08/27/99767/hate-crimes-against-muslims-rare.html

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  • 384. At 11:33pm on 27 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    You love to dredge up the past...but what about current?

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  • 385. At 8:57pm on 28 Aug 2010, JinNM wrote:

    LucyJ,

    Cordoba was a former Roman city conquered by a Muslim army. It was conquered again by Catholics during the Reconquista some time later. If you are not a fan of non-fiction, I recommend the book "The Walking Drum" by Louis L'Amour for a good picture of Moorish Spain.

    As for the rest of the comments here, I can't help but be disappointed. There are lunatics on all fringes, regardless of what religion that fringe is along. The voices of a few madmen drown out even a majority of reason. Terror is conceived by political figures that use religious motivation to have others die on their behalf, but the same happens when money, respect, or power is an incentive.

    There's no reason for the mosque to not be put in place near the WTC location. As someone who was injured on 9/11, the concept doesn't bother me at all. What -does- bother me is that Americans are demonizing Muslims. How better a way to achieve a terrorist victory than to turn Americans against themselves, creating the illusion of a religious war? It is not insensitive to make use of one's property. It is not insensitive to show that Americans are tolerant, and that there should be no question at all over Muslims, or Christians, or Hindus, or anyone else worshiping near a place of tragedy.

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  • 386. At 8:31pm on 30 Aug 2010, Paul Michael Jones wrote:

    I am not a rasist. But I think muslism should not build a mosque on ground zero. They broke we fix it. Is my motto.

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  • 387. At 11:01pm on 30 Aug 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    A shadowy figure behind the mosque...
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/9670_sharifelgamalandthegroundzeromosque

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  • 388. At 09:25am on 31 Aug 2010, U14598656 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 389. At 10:58am on 07 Sep 2010, MacTurk wrote:

    370-2. LucyJ wrote:The mosque row also exposes Islam on two sides. Exposes? How?

    One) Islam as a peaceful religion that seeks creation and wants to recruit more people for peace. What does this mean?

    Two) Islamic terrorism that seeks destruction of all other religions, peoples and cultures and wants to recruit more people for terrorism?

    Currently, islamic terrorism means extreme Sunni/Deobendi/Wahabi literalism inspired action against everyone who does not agree with them. They first seek to impose their views on the entire Muslim world, hence the regular Friday slaughters in Pakistan and Iraq. They are a tiny, ahistorical, fringe of the Muslim world, and are doomed to failure.

    Three)Are they building this to be truly peaceful? I do not know, as I cannot understand the question. Most Muslims of the Sufi persuasion tend to be peaceful and of a mystic bent.

    Four)Are they building this to spite USA?

    No, and if you had bothered to listen to any of the statements made by imam Rauf, you would know this. Did the Catholics build St Patrick's Cathedral in New York to spite the US?

    Five)As it was called Cordoba, is this referring to all faiths eventually living peacefully together with all as equals?

    The name is a reference is about the period in human history(some 400 years -between 711 and 1070, approx.), when the three Abrahamic faiths managed to build an effective civilization in the Emirate(later Caliphate) of Al-Andalus, with the capital in Cordoba.

    Six) As it was called Cordoba, is this referring to when Islamics initially conquested the Spanish city from the Christians and made them live as half-people, paying special taxes and banning them from certain sites?

    Islamics? You maybe mean Muslims? Cordoba was first settled by the Carthaginians, was conquered by the Romans, then came under the Byzantine Empire. After that, the Visigoths came along, then the Muslims of the Damascus Caliphate. Then the Caliphate of Al-Andalus, then a republic or taifa, then the Almarovids, next the Almohads. This was followed by the Kingdom of Castile,in 1236. This kingdom became, after many consolidations, the kingdom of Spain, later the Spanish Empire.

    Could I point out that while part of Al-Andalus, Cordoba had a population of at least 400,000 people, while under Spain, by the 18th century, it had barely 20,000?

    Seven) Will this lead to better and more trustworthy relations?

    If you stop being paranoid and lamentably short of information, very possibly yes.

    Eight) Will this lead to worse and less trustworthy relations? No, but see above. Could I also point out that this current anti-Muslim bigotry is meat and drink to Al-Qaeda? They are using all these demonstrations and stupid statements against the Cordoba Center to make the propaganda point that the USA is "rabidly anti-Muslim". This is making life more difficult for General Petraeus and all American troops in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Nine) Is Islam willing to talk about their religion with the community?

    Are you willing to listen?

    Ten) Is Islam purposefully shut off from the community due to not wanting to speak to others about their religion and not facing controversies head-on?

    No, but I suspect the antis are. Not to mention the Catholic church and its ongoing denial of any responsibility for over 100 years of child rape.

    As I cannot see into their hearts, there is no way for me or other Americans to ultimately know what is really being seeked...it could go either way...they may seek creation...or they may seek destruction...

    This is tripe. And the word is "sought".

    "The truth is, no matter how seemingly peaceful they are, to watch a megamosque being built to overlook 9/11 Ground Zero would be incredibly painful for Americans like myself (literally, it makes my heart ache when I think about it) and it will likely becoming a rallying cry carried far into the wind..."

    It is not a mega mosque, because, as imam Rauf told all those willing to listen, they would not be able to exclude radicals from a mosque. They can exclude anyone they suspect of radical tendencies from a community centre. The design and basic idea is based on the Jewish(!) 92nd street Y. The plans include a swimming pool, for all gods sake!

    As for your emotions, I am sorry, but they do not, and cannot, override your constitution. You are either a folk of your law, or you are nothing but a mob. And the only rallying cry being "carried far into the wind..." is coming from Al-Qaeda, and it is bringing more recruits to them every day, thanks to the antis. Well done! As fine an example of a boomerang policy as any I have heard since the CIA initially funded bin-Laden.

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  • 390. At 11:44pm on 07 Sep 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    Well, Mac, as far as the law goes...Obama Admin. wants to give citizenship to millions of people living illegally in our country- if they don't hafta follow the law, why should I?

    All the things you said were great and I would love to believe them. But its just not gonna happen. Build it farther away or expect a reaction...

    I certainly don't hate Islamic people. I just don't understand them- and I've met lotsa other races in college that are nice and can understand. Including a Turkish guy that is a bartender- wonderful guy, very strong and protects the ladies. (He does not talk any religion- but he will talk Da Bears!!! :)) But I don't think they really understand us, either-we simplify them and they oversimplify us.

    But either way, playing with fire or asking for trouble is not a good idea. Is the law more powerful or are the people more powerful?

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  • 391. At 12:31pm on 11 Sep 2010, McJakome wrote:

    390. At 11:44pm on 07 Sep 2010, LucyJ wrote:
    "Well, Mac, as far as the law goes...Obama Admin. wants to give citizenship to millions of people living illegally in our country- if they don't hafta follow the law, why should I?"

    More of LucyJ's inability to either think rationally or adjust to facts [instead of expecting facts to adjust to her FOX/GOP/TEA world view. To use a simile that she might appreciate, corresponding with LucyJ is like being stuck in the movie "Groundhog Day."

    Any information you give her, anything she seems to get, any opening of the closed mind is gone the next day. With LucyJ it’s always déjà vu all over again.

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  • 392. At 5:04pm on 11 Sep 2010, LucyJ wrote:

    I happen to love Groundhog Day.

    Bill Murray is the best!

    Jmm, I know we usually disagree and sometimes agree, but even you have to admit no matter how much I talk or no matter how much you talk, we both have freedom of speech and an equal right to say what we want.

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