BBC BLOGS - Mark Mardell's America
IN ASSOCIATION WITH
« Previous | Main | Next »

Is race a factor in Obama protests?

Mark Mardell | 16:04 UK time, Tuesday, 15 September 2009

Will the Congress vote today to reprimand Congressman Joe Wilson? That is a much less important question than the issues raised by his cry of "you lie!" during the president's healthcare speech last week.

Because weeks of mutterings are now out there, in the open, on the front page of the Washington Post. The allegation is that the fury towards the president that has been seen at town-hall meetings and tea party protests is in part motivated by racism.

Over the last couple of days there has been a focus on Mr Wilson's intervention, which was widely seen as disrespectful. A stream of articles has revealed that he was one of a handful of politicians who voted to keep the confederate flag flying over the South Carolina state house and was a long time ago a junior aide to Strom Thurmond, a former presidential candidate and one-time staunch segregationist.

But this is not to do with one individual. The Post asks: "Is racism a factor in the way the president is being judged?" The question has already been answered most vehemently by columnist Maureen Dowd in the New York Times.

Race is such a touchy, bitter subject it is often left alone by the mainstream media, and some would say should be avoided by wise British bloggers.

Slight remarks can be explosive. On a recent sleepless night, I followed a thread on a science fiction discussion forum about whether a fiction character in one novel (apparently based on a dark-skinned figure from Celtic mythology) was reinforcing racist stereotypes. How much more sensitive the issue is in the political arena.

So I am describing and inviting debate, not passing comment. The relationship between black and white has been such an important driving factor in American political history that it would be strange if it now mattered not a jot. The allegation is that many of those who are calling their president "un-American" mean he is not white.

Democratic propaganda, over-sensitivity or truth? Tell me...

Comments

or register to comment.

  • 1. At 6:30pm on 15 Sep 2009, Ricter wrote:

    The critics of President Obama are largely the same demographics that didn't vote for him in the first place (white, suburban-rural, older, economically stable). These are the people in American that fear change the most and feel that they have the most to lose. I didn't see any persons of color in the tea-party marches. No African-Americans, Latinos, Asians.....and not many young people. And you also didn't see persons of color protesting Health-Care reform at the town hall meetings. In summary, I'd have to conclude that race is the driving factor in the harsh, vocal criticism of The President.

    Complain about this comment

  • 2. At 6:32pm on 15 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    "I am describing and inviting debate, not passing comment."

    I hope that some of those who are likely to post here read and note that line; easily missed since it is towards the end. And particularly note the word 'debate'.

    Complain about this comment

  • 3. At 6:35pm on 15 Sep 2009, U14137215 wrote:

    I think it is the truth. I saw it start during the campaign when emails that were definitely colored by his race started circulating. This group of people are being fed by media personalities that are fueling the hatred. It is very scary for the majority of Americans that have hope for our future.

    Complain about this comment

  • 4. At 6:38pm on 15 Sep 2009, duhbuh wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 5. At 6:40pm on 15 Sep 2009, GH1618 wrote:

    I am opposed to playing the race card. The House of Representatives should formally reprimand Congressman Wilson for a serious breach of decorum. Considering whether his remark was racially motivated is not helpful.

    I am also opposed to demanding an apology, although I think one is due the House and the American people. The only apology worth having is a heartfelt one, not a coerced one.

    Complain about this comment

  • 6. At 6:42pm on 15 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    No.
    it's just the colour of his skin and his religion.

    Complain about this comment

  • 7. At 6:46pm on 15 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    Mark just have to say.

    LOL ARE YOU CRAZY;););)

    I gotta give you credit.
    You ask questions that the other reporters don't reach.;)

    Complain about this comment

  • 8. At 6:48pm on 15 Sep 2009, dennisjunior1 wrote:

    Mark Mardell:

    Will the Congress vote today to reprimand Congressman Joe Wilson?

    I think that Congress will probably reprimand Joe Wilson; because, the Democrats in the House of Representatives will have the votes to do it.....

    =Dennis Junior=

    Complain about this comment

  • 9. At 6:50pm on 15 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    If this idiot was an assistant to Strom Thurmond then the point is proved.

    To listen to some racial politics has somehow vanished from the world and anyone who points out otherwise has somehow failed to notice this.

    It is the equivalent of stating that hatred or poverty no longer exist.

    Complain about this comment

  • 10. At 7:01pm on 15 Sep 2009, jorseno wrote:

    I do not believe that race is a factor to the majority of Americans. Most Americans today (especially white) were the ones who faught side by side with minorities throught he civil rights movement and the womens rights movement in the United States. There are always minority groups on all sides that are racist!
    The issue here is the majority of the American public believe that governemtn cannot run anything right and that washington is full of fraud and abuse that they will not address. The American public does not want the federal governement to take over issues that should be state or local community issues. It is the United States of America ... not a Federal Governemtn mandating state regulations.
    If you want universal health care in the United States, go to Tennessee and sign up, it is currently one of the worst systems in America.
    The race card is being used in order to try and blur the issues that the majority of Americans care about and that is the policies of this administration are for far reaching federal governemtn control not only throughout the states but throughout Americans personal lives, and as the British know ... if you push the American people too far with an over-reaching federal governemtn then they will fight back and die for their freedoms.

    This is not about race, but according to the "Rules for Radicals" currently being played by this administration in order to bring about radical change, if you can't win on the issue, then blur the facts with race or religion!

    Complain about this comment

  • 11. At 7:03pm on 15 Sep 2009, Avery_Trill wrote:

    Hello Mark,

    In regards to the tea party/Obamacare protest last weekend, perhaps it's a mixture of all of the above. I happened to be making my way to the Capitol Visitor Center on Saturday and found myself walking against the tide of protesters (literally). I witnessed various messages, with a number that made big on Obama's middle name, Hussein. I asked myself how relevant that was to the topics of government spending and universal healthcare. You can't help but wonder if some people are motivated by factors other than the real issues.

    For the record, I too am a Brit living in the US.

    Complain about this comment

  • 12. At 7:10pm on 15 Sep 2009, prc1102 wrote:

    No

    simply and purley NO

    the rising anger is based on legitimate, poorly addressed fears, if the president wished to move on with his plan he needs to quell fears and uncertainties, no provide us with vague broad terms, some people want to know, specifically, that the government will not take over any more private industries.

    While the fears are often not even remotely based in fact, they are still out there, and rather than dragging race into this, which is completely untrue, the president, and foreigners, need to look at the issues and dispel myths rather than perpetuate racial barriers by playing the race card.

    Complain about this comment

  • 13. At 7:12pm on 15 Sep 2009, washuotaku wrote:

    Mark, You are going to get a lot of comments on this one.

    I think simply that they throw race as an issue when there is a political arguement involved with the President. It is really hard to attack the President on his policies without people calling you racist than it was when people attacked President Bush's policies.

    If you want to see race in politics, follow the Democrat Primary Mayor race in Atlanta, Georgia where they might vote for a white person for the first time since the 60s because of a split with two other black canidates. They are a lot of shouts about race in that one; could be a nice case study.

    Complain about this comment

  • 14. At 7:21pm on 15 Sep 2009, theoch wrote:

    Probably yes to a certain extent, in that some Americans are racists (but that is not something unique to Americans - there are racists everywhere), but I'll wager that the rest of the opposition to Obama is partly based on the fact that the Republican opposition has had nothing of substance to complain about since Obama became president and is milking this for all it's worth, and partly on the vague fear of change -"what was good for my daddy is good for me" kind of thing.

    Complain about this comment

  • 15. At 7:27pm on 15 Sep 2009, powermeerkat wrote:

    What a joke. If Mr. Obama had been considered "un-American" he wouldn't have been elected president (and by the same token U.S. Commander-in-Chief) by a sizeable majority which included Democrats, Independents, Libertarians and quite a few Republicans.

    Focused on all important quarrels between Wallons and the Flemish how to curve up mighty Belgium on and highly technical debates in EU Parliament concerning a permissible curvature of bananas, you may have not noticed, Mark, that during George W. Bush' presidency - G.W. Bush, you know the fascist presented as Hitler on a poster hung in one of BBC's newsrooms? - we've had black National Security Advisor, black Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and black Secretary of State.

    All very highly regarded. We've also got a black Supreme Court Judge (Justice Thomas) nominated by a Republican Administration and approved despite a staunch opposition from some of the most liberal Democrats in the U.S. Senate (senators Kennedy and Metzenbaum prominently among them).


    I think Mark, that you should take a look at a photo from a recent demonstration somebody posted in the body of a discussion on the previous subject in your blog).

    At this photo a young man holds a sign which reads:

    IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT MY SIGN SAYS; YOU'LL FIND IT RACIST ANYWAY.


    And I'm afraid the guy was (is) right.

    And that many Americans who oppose pres. Obama's version of a health care reform (not the idea of a health insurance reform per se) will be simply potrayed as racists, because it will turn attention of the electorat and media away from substantial shortcomings of the presidential scheme.[as presented]

    'LIE, LIE AND EVENTUALLY SOME OF IT WILL BE ACCEPTED AS TRUTH'.

    I'm afraid, judging by the tenor of the debate on the subject so far, that at least some people simply won't able to resist a temptation of choosing an easy road, and will follow dr. Goebbels' advice.

    Complain about this comment

  • 16. At 7:42pm on 15 Sep 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    Thank you Mark Mardell!

    You have kicked over the rock and opened the closet door to the pernicious blights of racism and bigotry that continue to poison discourse in the USA.

    Fear of the Other, the Alien, those different from ourselves is a rotten stench many try to cover with the false perfumes of denial and the meaningless rhetoric of extremist mantra.

    Yes, some fear President Obama not for his politics or his plans for the country but because he is of mixed race and he is Other. It will not matter what he says or what he does, some will hate and fear him for his color and heritage.

    The election of our first President of color gives us an opportunity to finally face our fears and our prejudices. It will remain to be seen whether we grow in grace, wisdom and compassion or cower in corners hissing and spitting.

    I offer this post when I am working out of the USA in a place where I am not able to easily respond to debate. I will try to check back at another time if I can.

    Thank you, Mark Mardell for your honesty and for your thought provoking comments. This blog has really needed that.

    Complain about this comment

  • 17. At 7:50pm on 15 Sep 2009, MasterShogu wrote:

    Sleepless night, eh? Hope its not related to the aggravation your new assigment is causing you. Hang in there old boy.

    You have been prodigiously posting lately, I must say, so perhaps you are fatigued? Sore fingers? Or are you using a new pillow in a new bed?

    Re your post, I hope its not racism rearing its ugly head but I don't think so. I can't speak for southern rednecks - who still probably have steam coming from their ears due to Obama's win - but I would suspect that american angst over 'socialism' is weighing more on their minds than Obama's skin color and motivating their usage of 'un-american'.

    Even far left democrats who want the gov't to do everything will tell you they are not socialist. The term is truly radioactive. And so this idea of a gov't (socialist) component of our health care system is giving people the willies over the 'slippery slope' argument. A little pastel pink now and full blow red later. And then the entire cold war would have been in vain. And so on.

    Call me un-american but I hope Obama succeeds. Don't care whether he is black or white (or both).


    Complain about this comment

  • 18. At 7:52pm on 15 Sep 2009, MariaTee wrote:

    If people are not careful, they won't be able to criticize Obama without being called racist.
    Joe Wilson may well be racist, but he had the courage to speak his mind. He should be answered to the subject (whether illegal aliens will be covered by the new medical insurance), not intimidated by being accused of racism.
    Obama has already played the race card one time too many with that professor who was arrested for insulting the police. I think that's quite enough.

    Complain about this comment

  • 19. At 7:55pm on 15 Sep 2009, diverticulosis wrote:

    Of course race is an issue, not the only issue though. Why would it be any different than the election. While Obama received more than 50% of the "white" vote he received more than 90% of the "black" vote. Race is an issue in American (and the rest of the world).

    And yes it's an issue in the rest of the world, it's just discussed more in the open in the US.

    And yes Obama's share of the black vote was based on race. The argument that blacks overwhelmingly vote republican doesn't hold water. He received over 90% of the black vote in the democratic primary too.

    Complain about this comment

  • 20. At 7:58pm on 15 Sep 2009, rob2112 wrote:

    I find it all very, very odd. The Republican Party was formed to fight slavery. The Democrat Party was the Party that opposed most Civil Rights for Black People. The GOP was responsible for pushing Civil Rights through the Congress. The KKK was the armed wing of the Democrat Party. The Liberal left have destroyed or are in the process of destroing the black family by limitless welfare. If the Liberals have been for the poor for all this time, why do we still have poor?

    Complain about this comment

  • 21. At 8:01pm on 15 Sep 2009, TashinkaC wrote:

    Gooner, I firmly disagree with our consluion. Older middle class Americans have more to loose from a socialist agenda - it doesn't matter what color the perpetrator is. Race does play a part in the opposition to Obamam, of course, for some people to some extent. But I firmly believe we'd have almost as much opposition if a white president were pushing the same policies.

    Complain about this comment

  • 22. At 8:04pm on 15 Sep 2009, Andy Post wrote:

    'The allegation is that many of those who are calling their president "un-American" mean he is not white.'

    For some I'm sure it plays a role, but these are the same people who opposed Pres. Clinton when he attempted the same feat, and he was very much a white guy.

    Complain about this comment

  • 23. At 8:08pm on 15 Sep 2009, dfmock wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 24. At 8:11pm on 15 Sep 2009, PsychicMaryEllen wrote:

    To say some of us do not like him because he is Black, is an insult to we Americans who would prefer someone else in the White House..First of all, Mr. Obama is only half Black..Secondly, it is his policies, or the lack thereof,that concern many Americans..Personally, I am disappointed in him because he gave many people the impression that he would bring home the troops..Of course I knew he would not..But many of my more 'trusting' friends had faith that he would end the war without delay. Regarding the "race card", enough is enough...White people are always being accused of playing it..NOT TRUE! It is my experience that the shoe is on the other foot, but very few people have the CHUTZPAH to say that!
    Mary Ellen Armstrong

    Complain about this comment

  • 25. At 8:11pm on 15 Sep 2009, RickMcDaniel wrote:

    On the contrary, there is zero race involved in Mr. Wilson's outburst. The issue of race, is the black community, acting racist, themselves, in using race as an issue to "excuse" the real issue, which is why have illegal immigrants been using the CHIP health care program, almost exclusively, (at least in TX, which I have my own personal observations of), and why hasn't anything been done to stop the abuse of that program by illegal immigrants?

    Mr. Wilson's question simply addressed his own knowledge of that situation in his home state, where illegal immigrants have been working in the poultry processing industry, in great numbers. He is only too well aware of how CHIP has been abused, and was simply anticipating the same abuse of Obama's proposed health care plan, simply because experience said, that would happen with the proposed plan, as well.

    Obama did not give any examples of how that would be prevented, in his plan, I might point out.

    All president's are maligned by cartoonists, as satire, and all presidents are questioned by the opposition, and the media, as well, over their proposals. There is nothing new there, and certainly nothing racist, whatsoever.

    On the other hand, we are seeing racisim in the black community, in rather glaring ways, such as Kanye West's behavior, yesterday.

    Complain about this comment

  • 26. At 8:14pm on 15 Sep 2009, oh2bme wrote:

    ANYONE who thinks this is about race is just as narrow minded as a racist. this is about, out of control spending, a government that thinks to take control of everything and totally disregard what the people of this country wanted. Far be it for anyone from a socialist nation to even begin to comprehen what it is like to be an American and have the control over your own life and not have the government control your life. As far as Strom Thurmond, a former presidential candidate and one-time staunch segregationist, is concerned. You ought to let people know that the man would've been over 100 years old and he was a segregationist when it was acceptable to most (right or wrong it's what it was at the time) As for nothing but white people at the rallies, open your eyes. America is a melting pot and everyone was represented that day.

    Complain about this comment

  • 27. At 8:22pm on 15 Sep 2009, thuning wrote:

    Is racism a factor in the behavior of a Confederate traitor from South Carolina?

    You don't vote to keep a traitor flag flying over American soil on a whim.

    Complain about this comment

  • 28. At 8:23pm on 15 Sep 2009, jorseno wrote:

    At 6:30pm on 15 Sep 2009, GoonerPetronius wrote:

    It was a two black men carrying AR-15 assualt rifles who were filmed outside a rally against Obama ...

    Many black americans, and Latino americans believe Obama is a racist ... I work primarily with minority and lower income groups throughout the United States and they all fear radicals no matter what race, religion or any other segregated category you want to place on them.

    Your ignorance is the problem ... not racism.

    Complain about this comment

  • 29. At 8:23pm on 15 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    20. (rob2112)

    I would like to post a very, very, very big question mark, followed by an even bigger exclamation mark, but the blog software doesn't permit it.

    Complain about this comment

  • 30. At 8:24pm on 15 Sep 2009, BCSWowbagger wrote:

    If race is a factor, then we have a serious problem. In recent days, we have seen the Speaker of the House, Ms. Pelosi, and the Senate Majority Leader, Sen. Reid, severally call the protesters "un-American" "unpatriotic" "swastika-carrying" "evil-mongers." If calling someone unpatriotic is a racial attack, then we have a rather serious spate of white-on-white racism in this country!

    Another sound reason to discount race as a factor is the rabidity of Democratic attacks on President Obama's predecessor during the last three Congresses. Though Mr. Wilson's shout set a new low for a joint session, Democrat behavior at State-of-the-Union addresses late in the Bush Administration set a new low at the time. Meanwhile, liberal protesters uttered slanders and hate against Mr. Bush that have not yet been *approached* by the current crop of conservative marchers. The sad fact is that ugliness and incivility have become key components on *both* sides of the American political scene since roughly Roe v. Wade. We have begun to see internal divisions such as have not been seen here since the War of 1812 or the Compromise of 1850. Yet, for some reason, the BBC and the American media failed to notice when the Left was assailing the Right. Their antennae finally perked up when the Republicans were out of office, and suddenly everyone is worrying about the death of civility in American political discourse. One wonders where they were to wonder about it four years ago. I think an unconscious, media-wide attraction to President Obama (and a corresponding distaste for President Bush) may be in play here. That would at least explain why race, rather than simple political rancour, is brought up so often; newsmen, like the Southern caricatures they rely on for their analyses, are unable to accept that anyone could *not* find President Obama utterly charismatic, and his proposals absolutely reasonable, and so search for some other, extra-political factor--like race--to explain the disparity

    Lastly, I'd like to suggest that Mr. Wilson's remarks, though utterly indecorous and thus condemnable, were motivated not by race or even simple distaste for the President, but by a yearning for the truth to be heard. There is no denying that President Obama's comments regarding illegal immigration and abortion under the new health care proposals bore, at best, little connection to reality. Though I would not claim that the President deliberately lied for the country (what a tiresome trope that has become!), well-informed Americans *should* do their part to debunk the myths he helped perpetuate and inform Americans that the current reform plan *will* pay for illegal immigrants, *will* pay for abortions, and *will* add to the deficit, to say nothing of its other merits or demerits.

    Thus, it seems to me that race, while remaining a minor factor in American politics and policies, has little or nothing to do with the mindset of the overwhelming majority of the developing opposition camp. To think otherwise bespeaks a certain insularity; simply getting acquainted with some of these usually friendly, upstanding, respectful citizen-protesters, on and off the picket line, would put all remaining doubt to rest.

    Complain about this comment

  • 31. At 8:25pm on 15 Sep 2009, vagueofgodalming wrote:

    Wow. You're reading those LJ SF race controversies. Definitely the right place to be.

    Complain about this comment

  • 32. At 8:26pm on 15 Sep 2009, vmarlois wrote:

    Race is definitely the prevailing issue in the debate of U.S. citizens who dislike Obama. As a transplant from the Bay Area to the Central Valley of California in 1994 for employment as a police officer, I have been overwhelmed with the degree of open practice of discrimination (in all forms) in this predominantly Evangelical community. I was forced to retire from my job early because of it. It's not a secret. I still get regular emails from old work "buddies" who banter back and forth daily about their hostility for Obama primarily because he's black. Many of the older retirees are setting up networks in the hills of South Dakota to "protect" themselves from Obama's alleged incompetence, as they are sure we will come under attack because of him.
    I'm not a huge fan of Obama, I didn't vote for him. I personally think that he would earn my respect quicker if he quit apologizing for his statements in regards to these issues. If Obama criticizes police for how they treated a respected black professor, he should stick to his guns and not back down in the face of law enforcement's angry protests. Cops train themselves to win every battle, and we know the biggest key to winning is psychological imbalance of the target and instigating a level of confusion. Racism absolutely exists in this debate. Anyone who says otherwise is either an idealist, or a liar. Obama would do the entire country a service if he would quit trying to appease all people and take it head on, because we all know what's allowed to be printed and what's not, and law enforcement is acutely aware of protecting themselves for court testimony.
    This is not to say that all cops are this way, or that all cops in my area are this way. I am not that way, and the larger percentage of law enforcement is an incredible group of people. But, as we say, it's 10% of the people who cause 90% of the problems. Obama needs to acknowledge the racism issue in it's full extent by publicly respecting the historical context, while acknowledging the great strides forward, and at the same time unequivocally standing his ground in eradicating a deadly issue that cowards conceal behind political correctness.

    Complain about this comment

  • 33. At 8:27pm on 15 Sep 2009, Kurt wrote:

    First of all, you British have enough problems to confront at home without concerning yourselves with us Americans. 95% of us are not racially motivated. I am white and two of my best friends (I would trust my life with them) are African American. MR.Obama "has" lied from when he started running for President and it has only gotten worse. Unless you have lived here for your whole life as I have (62rys.) you have no Idea what is going on.
    It required a revolution to get our right back once and now it is getting closer and closer to happening again.
    Whatever happens, the US is still the best place in the world to live. Disagree if you will, that is our right.
    Regards,
    Kurt

    Complain about this comment

  • 34. At 8:28pm on 15 Sep 2009, jorseno wrote:

    20. At 7:58pm on 15 Sep 2009, rob2112 wrote:

    Well Said! No one remembers that Lincoln was a republican who faught for freedom for all!

    Complain about this comment

  • 35. At 8:31pm on 15 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    26. At 8:14pm on 15 Sep 2009, oh2bme wrote:

    "Strom Thurmond, a former presidential candidate and one-time staunch segregationist, is concerned. You ought to let people know that the man would've been over 100 years old and he was a segregationist when it was acceptable to most."

    Age, I thought, was supposed to bring wisdom. Segregation "was acceptable to most" of whom, pray?

    I can only say I am stunned by that particular excuse.

    Complain about this comment

  • 36. At 8:32pm on 15 Sep 2009, U11846789 wrote:

    Of course race is a factor.

    A good number of people who did not vote for Obama - and a good many who did vote for him - voted on grounds of race.

    That's hardly going to have gone away in just 12 months.




    Complain about this comment

  • 37. At 8:32pm on 15 Sep 2009, digitallullu616 wrote:

    Race is absolutely the driving force behind all the attacks. These people will soon run out of stuff to attack the president with. The rhetoric has become so completely laughable. I was even accosted in a supermarket by a hungarian middle-aged man who was criticizing the president for talking to school kids -- just like H.W. Bush had done years ago.

    The reason why the anti-Obama brigade are attacking with everything they can possibly think of or jump on is because they are too embarrassed to admit they cannot stand the fact we have a black president.

    It is a very sad testament but it was to be expected. However anyone wants to dissect this issue, it remains another weak attempt at diverting what everyone know is the underlying cause. There is a demographic in this country who until the day they die will never accept the result of the 2008 presidential election.

    Complain about this comment

  • 38. At 8:34pm on 15 Sep 2009, KeithFromUS wrote:

    While I think there will always be a few ignorant people of any ethnic background that race plays into their decision making, I think the majority of people that oppose the "public option" portion of health care reform are genuinely concerned that the government has a long history of pork, fraud, waste, and mismanagement. This is my primary concern by far as a U.S. citizen.

    My fears are not race based. Simply put, if a government can not run a proper postal service efficiently when compared to the likes of FedEx and UPS. How could I possibly come to the conclusion that a public run health care option, funded by the taxes that I pay, will be run efficiently and effectively. The problem a great many people have is that they do not see the government as good stewards of monies earned by the people.

    So far under the Obama administration the rich have been bailed out in the banking and auto industries on the debt of the average working man. Economically, as an individual I am to be diligent and balance my budget and save for my retirement while providing for my family and preparing to send my son to university. Yet the government has no concept of operating under a balanced budget or fiscal responsibility and many citizens find it appalling and are at their wits end!

    Complain about this comment

  • 39. At 8:41pm on 15 Sep 2009, U13817236 wrote:

    Actually, race is seldom "left alone by the mainstream media", it's one of the most frequently raised topics and appears passim in public discourse in one guise or another. So it should come as little surprise that mainstream publications like the NY Times and others should jump on it now. What, sadly, is most often left alone by the mainstream media is the far more "touchy, bitter subject" of class. One of the most peculiar aspects of American society - unlike the UK and most of Europe - is the complete inability of the political class - including now Obama - to take up class issues. This despite the fact that America is one of the most class divided societies in the world. The whole health care debate at bottom is really about class; so it's not surprising that mainstream media like the Times or others that represent corporate interests should want to throw people off the track with other diversions. What's really "un-American" are frank discussions about class and any political or economic initiatives to redress class injustices. It would be unthinkable to have a Labor Party in America, even one as watered down as the British version. Until that happens, you can expect that politicians like Wilson or Obama, black or white, and the parties they adhere to, despite minor quibbles, will go right on serving corporate power just as they always have.

    Complain about this comment

  • 40. At 8:42pm on 15 Sep 2009, Eaglepeak wrote:

    Racism is alive and well in America. While lots of it evaporated over time, lots of it went underground (especially in the deep South) because it's no longer socially acceptable.

    While the remark itself may not have been racist, there's a plausible chance it rose from racist roots. Democrats shouldn't dwell on it too long because the utterance cannot be undone so it still stands shamefully on its own, apology or not. People of color seem to be sparse amongst the Obama haters (who often have no rational arguments to make about a particular issue), so it's a legitimate question. Opposition to an issue may be an outlet for racist feelings that are otherwise hidden. The U.S. House during a Presidential address is not the same as Question time at the British House of Commons.

    Complain about this comment

  • 41. At 8:42pm on 15 Sep 2009, akaotilie wrote:

    It seems to me that race is a factor indeed. Listening to NPR radio the other day, they quoted a constituent of the 'you lie' congressman as saying it was about time someone called 'a spade a spade'!!

    Complain about this comment

  • 42. At 8:43pm on 15 Sep 2009, determinedPatriciaG wrote:

    What a load of crap. People are unhappy about what Obama is doing to this country. They have been full of apathy since before the election and are now only waking up to what they have voted in. Nothing to do with the color of his skin, he is just a plain racist and hates this country. The Liberals simply do not get the unhappiness of the people which was shown in their thousands Saturday in Washington. They still do not get it listening to CNN last evening nearly made me sick. Carville says its the lower class - Carville mind you saying this the most classless person on TV. We are unhappy and the 2010 election will show just how unhappy we are with Obama. We tried him, it has not worked. Let's get him out.

    Complain about this comment

  • 43. At 8:43pm on 15 Sep 2009, jorseno wrote:

    30. At 8:24pm on 15 Sep 2009, BCSWowbagger wrote:

    AMEN!

    Complain about this comment

  • 44. At 8:43pm on 15 Sep 2009, GH1618 wrote:

    Lincoln was a moderate in his party on the question of slavery. His primary objective was to preserve the union. He is on record on that point in a well-known quote.

    That the Republicans were the anti-slavery party is an interesting but unimportant fact. That was about 150 years ago. Today's Republicans are Republicans in name only (likewise Democrats), compared to the founders of their party.

    Complain about this comment

  • 45. At 8:54pm on 15 Sep 2009, Tourniquette wrote:

    The loudest voices raised against Obama seek to 'other' him; cast him as a Muslim, a non-citizen, an un-American. Whether the root cause is racism or fear, the methods are the same; de-humanize your opponent so you can justify your opposition.

    I think this strategy is being promoted by political enemies with vested interests in seeing Obama's policies fail; but they are nurturing the seed of fear among those who already fear Obama because they think he is 'other'. Racism is the weapon they are wielding in the absence of compelling rational arguments. It is a sign of their personal weakness.

    Complain about this comment

  • 46. At 8:54pm on 15 Sep 2009, ikamaskeip wrote:

    Hmm, is 'race' a factor in opinions about the Black president of the U.S.A.?

    Well, approx 11,000,000 people of broadly African heritage were originally forcibly and brutally taken and sold into slavery in North America; for 200+ years the descendants of those original slaves were cruelly treated as bad or worse than any animal in a huge swathe of south and middle west States, and to the north and east were always on the lowest rung of American society (native indians being the only lower class); despite significant improvement in the general pattern of lives of the 'freed' descendants of slaves during the latter half of the 20th century 'black americans' still are the preponderantly poorest race in the US in monetary and living condition terms; almost 4 out of 5 convicted criminals presently serving a prison sentence in US Prisons are of 'black' or non-white racial origin; fewer than 1 in 17 'black' compared to 1 in 8 'white' Americans take full time education to post-graduate level.

    'Race'! An issue in the U.S.A.?

    Can't see it myself!

    Complain about this comment

  • 47. At 8:54pm on 15 Sep 2009, KeithFromUS wrote:

    http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/call-a-spade-a-spade.html

    If you read up on the phrase "Call a spade a spade", you will find it has been in use long before the usage of "spade" as a derogatory term and has been and is still commonly used to describe someone telling the truth even to the point of being blunt... not with race.

    Complain about this comment

  • 48. At 8:57pm on 15 Sep 2009, Kennymains1 wrote:

    Who has race affected more? It seems to me that a larger percentage of the black people support president Obama because of his color compared to the percentage of white people that reject him because of it. I think one group could be blamed more for ignorance in what they chose to overlook because of skin color. And I think it may be the former not the latter.

    Complain about this comment

  • 49. At 8:59pm on 15 Sep 2009, alanNJ wrote:

    I don't support Obama because he's 100% liberal; NOT because he's 50% black.

    Complain about this comment

  • 50. At 9:00pm on 15 Sep 2009, BrendaBraveheart wrote:

    While some people are genuinely concerned about the issues (largely based on a war of misinformation) many are against anything President Obama does because of his race (and for those not outright against the idea of a minority president - also based on a war of misinformation waged durng the presidential campaign). I had the displeasure of hosting such a person in my living room last week. I think it was especially telling when this person tried to explain to me how the US would never win "the war" because the President was the same race as the enemy. I was about to make a quip about being at war with Hawai'i (where the President was raised) when (1) my guest began to talk with supposed authority that the President took his oath of office by swearing on the Koran and (2)I realized my guest was serious.
    Although racism is not always a factor just because an issue may involve more than one race, the sad truth is that it still is a significant component of many cultures... including that of the United States.

    Complain about this comment

  • 51. At 9:02pm on 15 Sep 2009, thuning wrote:

    Maybe Mr. Wilson voted to keep a Confederate traitor flag flying over the South Carolina state house because he's racist or maybe it's because he hates America.

    Racist or not these people are despicable.

    Complain about this comment

  • 52. At 9:02pm on 15 Sep 2009, prettyNativeamerican wrote:

    Most certainly racism is playing a huge part with some of the opposition,not all, but a sizable number. When there is a call for the President to prove his citizenship and or religion, or the political cartoon that showed a dead chimpanzee pertaining to him,what else would you call it. The outburst by a congressman,which is unheard of in this country, is a stark reminder that some in congress can not wrap their minds around the fact that they are addressing the President of the United States. It against the law to threaten the life of a President but people like Rush Limbaugh are calling for his assassination daily and yet there is no call for Limbaugh to be fired! I don't mind debate or true disagreements, but this rage goes beyond that and I feel that special interests lobbyist are feeding the racial divide and hysteria.

    Complain about this comment

  • 53. At 9:05pm on 15 Sep 2009, cdmaas wrote:

    Of course race is a factor, but it is not the only one. Which makes the claim tricky, and as seen in this blog, can easily be turned on itself. I think that what is clear is that race is a factor when considering the tone and the ferociousness of the protests against Obama, and this carries over to his proposals. Let's be clear, and Maureen Dowd was, Joe Wilson was disrespectful toward, not just the president of the United States, but to Barak Obama as a person. That is racist.

    Complain about this comment

  • 54. At 9:07pm on 15 Sep 2009, salem1623 wrote:

    The right wing authoritarians are a greater danger to "our way of life" than any external threats. They will say or do anything to advance their vision of a fundamentalist christian theocracy in the USA. They have voiced or insinuated insults, hatred and aspersions that have been made against other great Presidential criminals, such as Linciln. In essence he has been accused of treason, and traitors get lynched ... er .... hung. Amazing, isn't it, that these attacks were not made against Presidents and other governmental figures who truly have acted in ways that subvert the Constitution and best interest of the citizens?

    However, there are a few insults that are so politically incorrect that they can not be used in decent company, hmmm?

    The answer to your question is as clear as black and white.

    Complain about this comment

  • 55. At 9:08pm on 15 Sep 2009, Snik wrote:

    Only Joe Wilson knows whether his judgement of Obama is racially motivated. But his actions are easily explained without racist motivations.
    Joe Wilson, and everyone reasonably following the ongoing health care debate, knows full well that coverage for abortions and illegal immigrants has been part of the national discussion for months now. He knows the democrats rejected provisions that would explicitly disallow coverage for those situations, and that it has been pointed out repeatedly that current legislative verbiage leaves plenty of flexibility for interpretation.
    It is plain to see that abortion and illegal coverage are being brought in under the radar, whether you agree or disagree that they should be covered.
    That said, Wilson was, in fact, right on the mark when he called Obama a liar. He may have been crude and out of line, but his analysis was sound. Purporting that racism motivated Wilson is projection and essentially plays the race card on Obama's behalf yet again.

    Complain about this comment

  • 56. At 9:09pm on 15 Sep 2009, wanda_missy wrote:

    I do feel that race is unfortunately still taken into consideration in America.
    After reading many comments contained in this blog, I find it funny that people think Obama is racist, instead of the other way around. Americans are upset, scared and depressed; after 8 years of Bush's administration who wouldn't be? This is not the President's fault and I do feel that he is trying to help the country. However there are certain kinds of Americans (white, older, far-right) who will never accept an African American as their leader. For Joe Wilson to yell, "You lie!" is not unusual as I'm sure that he treats all African Americans in this manner.

    Mr. Mardell thank you for your honesty and for allowing the rest of us to debate this topic.

    Complain about this comment

  • 57. At 9:12pm on 15 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    First Mark you should post what racism means.

    I suspect that the word means something different to the tea baggers.
    Who BTW didn't vote for Obama but now state that because others did they are not racists.
    What a joke.
    Americans interpretation of English will always lead to a screwed up debate.

    GH

    agreed he should be punished but
    "Considering whether his remark was racially motivated is not helpful."
    why not we've ignored it long enough ever since hillery raised it to try to get the rural supporters behind her.
    She was then supported in her primary bid by those republicans who reistered to vote for the dems. so she could loose to Mc cain.
    well that failed. so Palin came to and she's no racist. she just hates all other races that do not bow down and praise america.
    Or people that are muslim.

    The race issue is avoided here but strange when you do read the right web sites on tea baggers and then you see the real racism behind these comments here.
    Powerkitten said back during the primaries some VERY racist stuff about lazy black people.


    Gherkin has gone on at length to show that Tutu is a criminal or any other black person.
    He does occasionally say though that Jimmy carter or someother pro people person is a criminal as well.
    He does give credit to any though that attack palestinians. Because he's not racist.

    The lot of them posted so many racist comments during the primaries that Jacksforge got banned for trying to counter them.

    Of course they just shout "im not racist louder"
    well the reason many did vote for Obama is because they were fed up with racism.
    Sure there are legitimate complaints to be made.
    But the tea baggers and the same that post here with such anti obama venom were deriding him way before the elections. and now they are saying.
    "i only just realised that I hate this guy, I used to support him"

    strangely MA seems not to be racist as he hates all.
    but yet again that belies the truth.
    Because he is staunchly pro Israel. in a very racist manner.general hate means he can get away with the most hateful coments directed at a few and it is lost in the general hate.



    Like another poster says here if it weren't racist rubbish then why do so many mention his name.

    Because they don't know the meaning of racist.
    they think you have to lynch someone and burn a cross to be racist.
    Then there is the historical GOP got rid of slavery type rubbish.

    That was not the same people that are supporting this rubbish nowadays.

    The dems are the ones trying to help them (not force them into poverty) problem is that the GOP have been so stupid as to let the racists take their party over.

    KSC is not called a racist.
    neither is TC.
    there are several that are not called racists.
    It is a shame that the GOP cannot field some more like them.
    But the Gherkin and the past crew that seems to be lurking in new names that hated Obama from the moment he opened his mouth.
    They are racists.

    And that includes several posters here .
    Including one or two who would be on the left if it were not for the racism.
    GOP when you turned to racism you declared uncivil war .

    Do not think that Evil like you outnumbers the good.
    The bit in me that said "america can and will vote for Obama" says that if you freaks try your bloody revolution on. if you persist in mentioning that if not listened to you will get violent(something the left DID NOT DO)you will provoke a battle and I have faith that all them soldiers that have fought for this nation would stand by the nation and against those they see as being related to Timmothy Mc Oklahoma.

    This is of course a one sided argument because the mods wouldn't let us post the comments on Right wing blogs. ( or the ones received in E mail send out) because they are SOOOO racist.



    Complain about this comment

  • 58. At 9:12pm on 15 Sep 2009, samsbinky wrote:

    Let's see; if you disagreed with the Bush administration, you were considered un-American. Now, if you disagree with the Obama administration, you are considered racist. How much more simplistic can we get? Are some people against Obama simply because of his race; certainly. All things being equal, what would the reaction be if Hillary Clinton was president? Would all detractors be considered sexist? And what if Joe Biden had become president? What excuse would be used then?

    Maybe Americans are just tired of Government meddling in their lives.
    Maybe Americans are just tired of Government spending money it doesn't have.
    Maybe Americans are just tired of Government lying to them.

    Or we could just call everyone a racist...

    Complain about this comment

  • 59. At 9:15pm on 15 Sep 2009, Luke-John wrote:

    I was born in Namibia - Lived for some years in South Africa, then the UK, then settled in the US over 20 years ago (travelled extensively in between) - I know racism when I see ia and while the US is far from perfect, it is in general the LEAST racist society that I have lived in. The most racist people here are those who proffit from it and those these days are mostly black politicians who should know better and uneducated whites who may feel threatened - BUT - they are by far in the minority. Most "ordinary" people just get on with their lives and really couldn't care about the other person's skin. My children have friends of every shade and just don't see any difference.

    I saw far mor racism and class envy in the UK than I have ever seen in the US.

    If President Obama did not have such an extreme socialist agenda, he'd go down as one of the most popular presidents in history but because it gets publicity, every criticism is seen as racially-motivated and because of his unpopular agenda, he WILL get lots of criticism. Remember we may like the man but still hate his ideas. Presidents Bush, Carter, et al had just as nasty epithets thrown at them - why such a fuss over this one? - We see/hear far worse in the British House of Commons every day.

    Complain about this comment

  • 60. At 9:15pm on 15 Sep 2009, tammythorpe wrote:

    Americans seem to elect their president’s on hope but want them to rule on fear. Reagan did it during the cold war, George H. Bush did it during the Middle East crisis that led to the gulf war, and George W. Bush did it after 9/11. There were brief respites during democratic administrations. This is the paradox that outsiders don’t get. The rowdy behaviors at these town hall meetings were clear manifestations of the contradictions within this nation that preaches hope and peace to the world, but demonstrates hate and venom in its behavior. The US thrives on fear – the debate provided the opportunity to revive this fear for the new administration just in case they forget. Racism and immigration is their ace card when all else fail. The Birthers, Tea party protesters and KKK are the same - custodian of Fear for the nation. These groups are grateful to FOX broadcasting for the help.

    A black democratic president is a ripe invitation for the US to be it self

    Complain about this comment

  • 61. At 9:16pm on 15 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 62. At 9:18pm on 15 Sep 2009, D Adams wrote:

    racism is just ignorance, and sadly it's still thriving in the US. unfortunately TV and the internet have given a worldwide forum to all the dummies who used to just gripe to each other in pubs.
    of course Obama was elected by a majority of Americans who voted on what he said not how he looked. if McCain had won, critics would be complaining he was too old to think straight. let's move on.

    Complain about this comment

  • 63. At 9:19pm on 15 Sep 2009, pbscraig wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 64. At 9:22pm on 15 Sep 2009, soccermomusa wrote:

    I think the race card is a total joke of a defense for Obama. I had no issues with a black or "other than white" president or any other government figure. This country continues to embrace so many cultures, that folks I know don't think about it much at all. Character and policy should be the number one considerations. Obama is a radical ideologue. If anyone used or is using the race factor, it is Obama himself and his team of radical cheerleaders and political thug friends and associates. They use race to KEEP folks from giving their opinion on ANYTHING, in fear of offending someone and being called a racist. Unfortunately, these scare tactics work for the liberal radical cheerleaders of Obama, scaring decent people from voicing any disagreement. Why would they feel so intimidated by a debate of issues and facts? Why resort to cowardly scare tactics? I believe they themselves have no logical reasoning or facts to support their policies and hide from the open debate forum to avoid obvious failure! They can't support their own ideas to a logical and beneficial conclusion for all of America, so they constantly bring up race. Sounds like the media just love the race card as well, after reading more insinuating comments about whether it is really an actual "problem" with Americans. I just can't stop laughing- it is a total cop out.
    For one thing, his experience with governing anything was slim to none. Community Service? Try investigating ACORN and his signature is all over this organization. That would be a responsible story for the "journalists" of the world to look into. I for one cannot believe this country did not expect more experience within the US government from a young presidential candidate. Two years of senate experience is barely any at all. He has grown up in a bubble of the ivy league university life, groups of "what ifs" and "wouldn't it be nice if..." and no real life experience. The people of this country (at least half of them, remember,) including myself did not feel he was qualified, did not like his long time radical associations, nor did we think his policies were in the best interest of hard working Americans or the world abroad.
    True investigative journalism is in a sad state here in the USA. I am finding it is just another "idea" machine with a lot of behind the scenes support from the ideologues that don't have a clue about the real world. They have been behind a desk too long, pretending they can change the world with their commentary and one sided investigating. Americans have been too trusting in our own media journalism for too long, now many Americans are taking the research to a new level and exposing the truth and facts to a thirsty audience. The untrustworthy politicians with no facts to support themselves are now quite nervous and are lamely throwing the race card out to throw off the dogs. Nice try.

    Complain about this comment

  • 65. At 9:22pm on 15 Sep 2009, prettyNativeamerican wrote:

    It is very interesting that some whites like to spew the vomit that Rush Limbaugh and the like spread on the airways, that Obama is a racist and hates this country. They conveniently overlook the fact that Obama's mother was white and that he was raised in a white family. I think it is laughable, since these same people were so gung-ho about Bush going to war on a lie,which cost the lives of thousands of American servicemen and women and never once questioned the motivation. He is doing exactly what he was voted in for, to reform a health care system that is unsustainable. So I guess it's unamerican to protect Americans from financial ruin if they get sick and dropped from their health insurance,or if they can't get coverage because of a precondition.

    Complain about this comment

  • 66. At 9:26pm on 15 Sep 2009, HopefulMomma wrote:

    American history, right up to the present, can not avoid the issue of race. But there is no single answer about how much it effects peoples opinions. However, I think it is clear that some people can't stand someone not being like themselves, to the point that they will convince themselves of the veracity of totally untrue statements that support their feelings. As for fear that government would mismanage anything, well I don't think the private sector has done that well. And as a mater of fact, there are a number of government programs, like Medicare, that run quite well. I laugh at the fear that Obama's programs are socialism. So far from it! I only wish we could copy Britian in the health care department.

    Complain about this comment

  • 67. At 9:30pm on 15 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    psycic mary ellen.
    do you not think with 80 000 armed idiots out there (at least) determined to bring an end to him that maybe just Obama is going a rather good job at so far stopping them hitting the streets with those weapons in what will end up a bloody revolt.
    Bloody because Dems have guns to.
    ooooo.

    Pull the troops out.
    Sure I'm all for that. can you erase what was done in GW name first?

    I doubt it.

    The gays are annoyed
    us pot heads are annoyed , just about every one feels let down to some extent.
    but then ,for me at least, I expected it.
    he promised to ty to run things from the centre.
    even though the centre line was moved to the right.
    and still the right refuse to accept or work with him.
    He has not been socialist. (I have) but I'm a blogger not a president).
    He has not been what the right call him. and yet they persist.
    the same peopel that think the passport and the koran were Obama's deal.
    the same I hear for real on the streets and in shops here in good old Oregon state.

    One day they speak straight racism then they talk politics and think we can't link racism to their Ideas.
    what a joke.
    Even our DC is to me a genteel racist (as another banned person put it) .
    But he's not t he sort to burn effigies or not vote for Obama when he was the nominee.
    There were a few around though.
    quite a few.
    How else could someone seriously vote for Palin.

    She was SO racist it was lucky she was not abroad where she could have ended up in jail.

    Complain about this comment

  • 68. At 9:30pm on 15 Sep 2009, gringo_ wrote:

    The "Americans are racists" thing is combination of media hype and welfare blacks crying "poor me" to get more money by playing the "white guilt" gambit on white liberals. Media whipped white guilt has almost destroyed the American black social structure. in 1960 85% of black children came from two parent homes. Now less than 25% of black children have a father living at home. Thanks to stupid, white, liberal guilt.

    Complain about this comment

  • 69. At 9:31pm on 15 Sep 2009, di_speaking wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 70. At 9:32pm on 15 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    salem (are you a pinko from oregon?)

    it is amazing that they think that no one will notice their racism a well.

    Complain about this comment

  • 71. At 9:35pm on 15 Sep 2009, Mandolibrarian wrote:

    I believe that race is definitely a factor. I'm white, but I have had several jobs where I was in the minority as a white person, and I had a chance to experience the way racial issues play out in the workforce. There are a lot of code words that seem trivial to many whites but spark anger in African-americans. For example, "you people" or "kinky hair" may seem like just normal expressions in a whites-only crowd, but invoke all the stereotypes that African-Americans collide with daily. It is just very painful and depressing to be constantly reminded that you are part of what the majority considers an inferior group. The right-wingers involved in this are using a LOT of the codes that are so nasty and stem from racism, even if they don't admit it or even entirely understand it.

    Complain about this comment

  • 72. At 9:35pm on 15 Sep 2009, MasterShogu wrote:

    The federal government has been the 800 pound gorilla on the backs of citizens for a long time. They have intruded over and over and so intruding on health care when the market has clearly failed should surprise no one. I welcome it.

    What surprises me is the 'labratories of democracy' i.e. the States, have not solved this question (uninsured, etc) themselves. People who distrust (read hate) the federal govt should surely be in the 10th amendment group and would want this issues addressed at the State level.

    We all understand that tax monies go all over the damn place to things we'd rather not support but realize that is what our societal contract requires. Those who do not support some form of universal care at the State level I think are simply naive, cruel and lucky. Naive because they could be only 1 incident away for needing State assistance, cruel because it truly is to not function as basic societies have always functioned (care for poor, ill, etc) and lucky as they have not had their naivety exposed.

    The train has apparently sailed on the States addressing this issue and the federal govt has stepped in. Perhaps not the best ultimate solution but legislation can always be tinkered with after the fact. We are long overdue addressing this issue and the only arguments I hear against are ‘freedom’, or ‘tax money’, or ‘it’s not in the constitution’. Give me a break. We all hate the federal government but, darn it, something needs to be done! Re tax money, why don’t we cut defense spending? Why do allow the poor to suffer and allow a screwed up system to get worse? Re the constitution, if the courts can read Roe v. Wade privacy into that document then it seems to me eminently reasonable to promote the general welfare via some form of universal care under the ‘promote the general welfare’ clause.

    I personally think it immoral not to have universal care and I’d rather sink my money down the bottomless pit of government bureaucracy than to pay for some fat-cats yacht and allow a dysfunctional, broken system to continue.

    Complain about this comment

  • 73. At 9:36pm on 15 Sep 2009, ForMySins wrote:

    "So I am describing and inviting debate, not passing comment."

    Good luck, Mark. I've been trying for nearly 10 years, but these guys have had it their own way since Reagan came to power and they're not giving up without a fight, even if Obama was democratically elected by a sizeable majority.

    Your fellow Brit.

    Complain about this comment

  • 74. At 9:37pm on 15 Sep 2009, janeravenswood wrote:

    IMO, it is a factor. As Gooner said, one does not see any people who aren't white, conservative, paranoid people in the protests against President Obama. They do not want change that disturbs them from their supposed "rightful" place of power. They cannot understand that the world has changed and they are not "God's Chosen" anymore. Unfortunately, people who do embrace change, liberals, those who have had to struggle for equality, are far too accepting of the "different" even these ignorant hateful people and allow them far too much latitude in their actions. I grew up in western Pennsylvania where I did not have a chance to speak to anyone who wasn't WASP until I went to college. The people I grew up with are those who cannot comprehend how the world is now.

    Complain about this comment

  • 75. At 9:42pm on 15 Sep 2009, JaneRoe wrote:

    Only White Americans thinks that there's no racism in America. OF COURSE, the opposition is race-based.

    Complain about this comment

  • 76. At 9:51pm on 15 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    There must certainly be a percentage of people who are prejudiced against President Obama because of his race but I think they are in the small minority. I think the majority of protestors are angry about a whole host of issues especially related to the economy, jobs, and their own personal finances. They blame the government for the current crisis. By and large I think they are right. The government engineered the circumstances that resulted in the financial debacle, bailed out the chief culprits, and gave away taxpayer money that went to pay millions, even tens of millions in bonuses to bankers who were among the worst performers in this tragedy while their own assets dwindle, their jobs are in jeopardy, and they face the prospects of higher taxes and higher prices.

    This is hardly the first time Americans have demonstrated in large numbers at large gatherings over public issues. We saw it again and again during Johnson's and Nixon's administrations. It goes back even to Lincoln when there were riots over the military draft. We have a long history of this. To blame it on racism is either ignorant or merely a way to divert attention from the justifiable anger and anxiety many Americans feel. Obama was elected on his promise to fix it. So far it seems to only be getting worse in the eyes of many Americans, me included. Nor can he pull a Tony Blair blaming the current crisis on "the party opposite" year after year. For better or worse he owns it himself now and he will be judged on the outcome.

    Complain about this comment

  • 77. At 9:54pm on 15 Sep 2009, Lycanthropica wrote:

    Race is only one part of the equation - more of it has to do with class. It just so happens that the most outspoken American protesters of Obama tend to either have the most money, have the least tolerance for anything other than "white" culture, and have narrow-minded religious beliefs. These republicans don't want to change a system that has worked for THEM - but not for the less fortunate, or much of the middle class. Republicans have almost as much in-group favoritism as radical Christians, and they fear anyone or anything that is "different".

    I just so happen to live in the South, where racial tension runs high because both blacks and whites are poorly educated, and therefore stick to the "folk wisdom" each group has formulated. The richest people in the South, more often than not, are Conservative, bible-holding Christians, who love their money and have a low tolerance for anything the Bible is against, and anything their in-group (Southern whites) is against. None of these groups want to integrate with one another, and it is much easier for these groups to shout lies out of fear of their neighbor.

    As for the rest of the country, it doesn't seem much different. This nation has divided itself into "in-groups" and "out-groups", and many of us just don't like each other. However, the Liberals of this country are more willing to be inclusive, but the Conservatives can't stand it because they think they are more Godly, more patriotic, more "moral" - and plainly, just better than everyone else.

    Complain about this comment

  • 78. At 10:01pm on 15 Sep 2009, Progressive1 wrote:

    Conservatives in the US simply cannot get past the fact that their agenda was defeated in the last election and are doing everything they can to obstruct any change of the status quo. Racism is certainly a factor in the shrill tone of the Tea Partiers and other reactionary so-called patriots, but I suspect it is more of a tool in the conservative attempt to discredit anything and everything that diminishes their power. We need to take a hard, clear, dispassionate look at what occurred during the 8 years of the Bush regime. What happened? The incoming republican federal appointees, concerned with establishing themselves and advancing their conservative agenda, simply ignored the imminent threat of international terrorism and allowed 9/11 to occur through complacency. The result (another tool for advancing their agenda): erosion of civil liberties in the US, a completely unnecessary war in Iraq based on lies (where are the WMDs?) to control oil, a lack of will to prosecute the necessary war in Afghanistan which allowed the Al Qaeda leaders to escape, survive, and grow into an even more significant threat, near economic collapse and the largest federal bailout of private corporations with US tax dollars ever. The economic issues the Obama administration is dealing with are the result of misguided and ineffective conservative economic policies that have made the wealthy much wealthier and damaged the US deeply. Remember, conservatives are backward looking and harken for the good old days - when white people were firmly in control.

    Complain about this comment

  • 79. At 10:04pm on 15 Sep 2009, FRiEnDinOH wrote:

    After reading Maureen Dowd's Sunday column, I agreed with her. It's sad to say that for some people the color of their skin is so important.

    We elected Barack Obama President based upon his qualifications not the color of his skin.

    I do not believe that it is Democratic propaganda, unfortunately, it's the truth.

    Those vocal protesters are under-educated and very ill informed and much if it is due to underlying racism.

    I regret that racism is still such a factor in our country.

    Can't we all just get along together?

    Can't we work together to improve our society?



    Complain about this comment

  • 80. At 10:07pm on 15 Sep 2009, carisydney wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 81. At 10:14pm on 15 Sep 2009, totone1 wrote:

    I am a white American of European decent. I work in an inner city school district with an 86% minority base. My friends range in age, race and sex. I am honestly stating that I have hatred towards President Obama not solely because he is half black, but that he or anyone else admits that he is also half white. I think this makes me angry at him for that, but it does not play into what I am reading in the actual policies that are being proposed. The USA is made up of many races and it is only through the government that we are classified as anything other than human. Take race out of the census and just count Americans and a lot of this discriminatory behavior goes away. But that just plays into my theory anyway that government and media shape the landscape as we fail to educate or inform ourselves on the true issue. Healthcare for all is not affordable without sacrificing the American way that is just a statistical fact, you cannot take from the rich and give to the poor without taking away someone’s right to be rich. It is not a crime to be rich unless the means to the end were ill gotten gains. I am not rich fighting to make my mortgage but look at the numbers I file in taxes and I am approaching Obama’s definition of rich. Cool heads must prevail and this debate on race well intentioned by the host is not helping the bigger picture. Something has got to be done about health care in a fiscally responsible way without playing Robin Hood!!!

    Complain about this comment

  • 82. At 10:21pm on 15 Sep 2009, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re#47

    Keith (fromUS) thank you from the bottom of my heart. I might have easily presented (revealed?) myself as a racist here, because I quite often cut to the chase, don't beat around the bush ("W" is out of office so I guess I wound't have problem using that expression) and - horrible dictu - frequently CALL A SPADE A SPADE.

    I genuinly didn't know that the term 'Spade has (acquired?) a negative connotation, although I've just realized that -yes! - it IS a WHITE weapon. How can we have an honest exchange of views if we cannot even call a spade a spade? [By the way, what should we call it? Sword? Foil?
    That's a different kind of white -oops!- weapon.]

    It's bad enough that I cannot sing "I'm pretty, and witty and GAY" any more; and not only bacause I'm no longer pretty or witty.

    Can one still mention former Iraqi dictator's surname, current Egyptian president's last name, or even al-Qaida leader's first name without arrousing a suspicion that perhaps one is trying to use a race card, or a religion card?

    This debate about HEALTH is getting SICK!

    And imagine, that merely 25 years ago PC stood only for 'personal computer'. :-(

    P.S. Tiger Woods upset quite a few people, when,couple of years ago he bluntly refused to be coopted by African American community or Asian-American community, and any other ethnic group.

    Calling a spade a spade -oops again - the famous golfer stated:

    "I am not black, I'm not Asian, Im' not white; I am AMERICAN!"

    Quite a bold statement, Tiger. [Oops, have I just drawn a wild card?]

    Complain about this comment

  • 83. At 10:22pm on 15 Sep 2009, fearlessBrowser wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 84. At 10:27pm on 15 Sep 2009, arcynic wrote:

    Of course race is a factor.

    As is weariness. That other r, rhetoric, is good for, maybe, a hundred days.

    But, obviously, it´s not easy when you inherit the 10 labours (English spelling) of Hercules from Bush.

    On balance, though, give the big O a break. We need a bit more time to find out if he is just the new model of the old corrupt Democratic machine or if he really believes the stuff he´s peddling.

    Complain about this comment

  • 85. At 10:28pm on 15 Sep 2009, CxMartin wrote:

    Response to Trill,

    I believe the use of Obama's middle name in a negative fashion is mostlyin response to the use of Bush's "W" negatively, although a few are trying to establish a negative connection to his Muslim father.

    Response to Gooner,

    I think you could have stopped after saying that the people against Obama's social improvement plans are those with the most to lose. As for seeing no minorities, young people, etc. at these tea parties and townhalls, very few of people of any color, religion, or financial situation, complain when there are to be a beneficiary of a new system. I cashed my stimulus check even though I would have voted against issueing them.

    I doubt Wilson's outburst was racially motivated, but that does not mean that none of the opposition to Obama and his plans isn't.

    Off topic rambling:
    A note on the Tea Parties: They originally were "grass routes" libertarian assemblies to protest the growth of government, they have essentially been commandeered by the "new" republicans, which does not sit well with old repulican / libertarian people like me who believe in state and locality based solutions to issues like health care, education, etc.

    People in general, have a hard time grasping the concept that conservatives like me are more than willing to pay for health care for those in need, provide quality educations, good environments, etc. but want to do it at the stateand local level. Furthermore, for those who can afford health care or insurance against its cost, we feel the best controls on costs are a free market system with quality regulation where its needed. There are countless working examples, unfortunately health care isn't one of them.

    Complain about this comment

  • 86. At 10:32pm on 15 Sep 2009, 66mustang wrote:

    Race infringes on everything in America. Top African engineer in a large corporation, first African American to coach a football, baseball, basket ball team,etc. Black caucus's,first black American to do this and that.
    Obama is the first black American President, OR, Obama is the first American with a British father! Of twins born recently one was white and the other black, will they never be real brothers when they leave home? Before African slaves were brought to America, in England, prisoners that had stolen a loaf of bread to feed a starving child were offered an alternative. Be hung on the gallows or get sent to the colonies as an indentured servant (slave) My good African American friend was caught up in the looming race heat during the election. I mentioned that Chicago was a hot bed of crooked politicians and crime, his response caught me by surprise. "If you want to talk about crooked cities what about Atlanta with KKK wearing white robes and burning crosses". Color of the skin should not be the factor dividing this country.

    Complain about this comment

  • 87. At 10:34pm on 15 Sep 2009, treb0rd1 wrote:

    Sadly in the US, we cannot criticise anyone without being labeled a hater of some form or fashion. Those of us who opposed the invasion and subsequent war in Iraq were "unpatriotic". And if we oppose Mr Obama, we are "racist". The height of ridiculousness with this is when someone called me a racist because of my anti-Obama position. As an African American, I found that amusing.

    We do not all have to be in lock-step with the president and many others have opposed previous presidents without being so-labeled. Allow us the rights of free speech and dissent with Mr Obama as so many others have enjoyed with Presidents Bush, Clinton, Bush (elder), etc. Allow all of us to be free thinkers and not just go along with the program lest we offend someone's racial sensitivities.

    Would the readers suggest otherwise? Should Joe Wilson not get a say in matters dealing with the White House simply because of his history? Absurd to think so.

    signed,

    A former US Air Force member who served at RAF Greenham Common and RAF Upper Heyford, a Republican voter who is against our actions in Iraq, and a strong opponent to the Obama Administration as a matter of political and social differences in opinion.

    Complain about this comment

  • 88. At 10:36pm on 15 Sep 2009, _marko wrote:

    To powermeerkat #15

    RE: your judgement about what is racist.

    "
    IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT MY SIGN SAYS; YOU'LL FIND IT RACIST ANYWAY.
    And I'm afraid the guy was (is) right.
    "

    In your post, you seem to be undefining racism, implying that it cannot take place.
    Please let people know what helps you decide an action was motivated by race, maybe with examples. It would then make your position clearer. In the same post the BBC Hitler poster implies racism, where the absolving argument "it doesn't matter what the poster says, you'll find it racist anyway" no longer seems to apply. If a protestor had a Hitler picture you would probably dismiss it as harmless satire. What exactly makes you decide that one implies racism and another can't?

    Complain about this comment

  • 89. At 10:36pm on 15 Sep 2009, turningblueandgrey wrote:

    #38

    Keith said "So far under the Obama administration the rich have been bailed out in the banking and auto industries on the debt of the average working man".


    Wasn't the about $700 billion TARP bank Wall Street bailout approved under President Bush,

    and weren't the about $20 billion total of Detroit loan bailout + cash for clunkers then both approved under President Obama over Republican objections and efforts to destroy the auto unions, who made many concessions for the bailout?

    I submit that the latter, Obama, programs -- at less than 3% of the cost of TARP -- saved a lot more "working man" jobs than the former, Bush, program...

    although I acknowledge that all of these programs -- Bush TARP plus Obama Detroit actions plus the multi-year $800 billion 'stimulus' of infrastructure, etc., spending planned under Obama -- were necessary to prevent the evaporation of more average American's invested wealth from Wall Street, to kick-start the economic recovery that is now arriving, and to stabilize housing markets that are now seeing the start of a slow recovery.


    On topic, it's hard to separate which "ism" is at play most in the shouting now.

    There is a self-defeating stripe of anti-intellectualism which has the country-club inheritance mega-rich, corporate insurance, banking, etc., and right-wing radio, who do not want to change the status quo, labeling Obama as "elitist". This is ironic given how much of a 'bootstrap' young life Obama led! I admire Bill O'Reilly for recognizing that aspect of Obama's acheivement, which is a conrast compared to many inherited-wealth politicians who try too hard to be regular guys.

    This same attitude carries over into the scorn for many areas of science, especially environmental aspects, quite a contrast to the 'greatest generation' attitude of respect for science and the spirit of American innovation that helped school the minds who brought us the modern atomic and electronic era.

    Then there is also, it seems, racism which calls out Obama's few bad cabinet picks as proof of a racially rigged administration, as if past mistakes like Earl Butz or Bush's first FEMA head never passed through Washington. Acorn gets played up under Beck's molehill microscope, as if Tom Delay never bullied or gerrymandered, and so on.

    The socialist, marxist etc. labels seem to have more venom attached now than was seen in the hatred of Clinton, who really was slippery; or was seen in the opposition to what was seen as inaction or incompetence by G. W. Bush. It's as if all the "-ist" labels flung at Obama are code words for something else about Obama, who is a Boy Scout compared to Bill Clinton, and a Pericles or Lincoln compared to Bush, that merits extra spite...

    Complain about this comment

  • 90. At 10:39pm on 15 Sep 2009, AlmostAlwaysRight wrote:

    It is a mistake to debate the "race issue" in this situation. This is certainly a Democratic tool to discredit those opposed to their domestic policies. The more this phony issue is discussed, the less time we spend talking about the widespread opposition to the proposed Health Care Reform plans (not too mention it fuels divisive racial flames).

    Americans do not by and large believe that it is the government's role to mandate health insurance. Many, including myself believe that it is a clear violation of the tenth amendment to the US Constitution.

    Complain about this comment

  • 91. At 10:40pm on 15 Sep 2009, _marko wrote:

    To MariaTee #18, or people who use the phrase "race card"

    What makes you able to distinguish between someone playing the race card and a valid accusation of racism?

    Isn't the purpose of using that phrase just to diminish criticism, without supplying a counter argument, or is that just playing the logical, I can't defend the position, I'm just guessing, it's just my opinion card?

    Complain about this comment

  • 92. At 10:41pm on 15 Sep 2009, powermeerkat wrote:

    #62 Diane Adams wrote:

    if McCain had won, critics would be complaining he was too old to think straight.



    It's very clear now, Diane:

    people who didn't vote for McCain were obviously AGEISTS. ;-)

    Complain about this comment

  • 93. At 10:42pm on 15 Sep 2009, Nathan wrote:

    While all racists are jack****es, not all jack***es are racists.

    Complain about this comment

  • 94. At 10:43pm on 15 Sep 2009, aihong wrote:

    Race may be a factor for a few people, but I truly believe they are a negligible minority of the opposition. I think Americans want health care reform...just not so sweeping a reform as proposed in either of the bills congress is considering. I also think many of the protesters (myself included) are tired of the back-and-forth antagonism of the two-party system. When running for president, Mr. Obama promised to listen and cooperate with those who opposed him. I believed him and voted for him. I was fed up with President Bush's policies, the war, his stimulus packages, his bailouts of the banks, the wiretapping, the invasive Patriot Act. I thought Mr. Obama would be different and I voted for him. I think he thought he would be different, too. But once in power he, like Mr. Bush before him, has ignored the other side and pushed his own agenda through. Who can blame him, I suppose, but he said he would be different.

    Now the Republicans are down and out and at the rally I attended in Washington this past weekend, the right-wing congressmen promised to be bi-partisan and fair if only they could take back congress in 2010. I don't believe them. But I do believe in many of the promises they made, and the promises Mr. Obama made during his campaign. I believe their promises to listen to the opposition, to make actual compromises, and to work for the American people and not party agendas will actually help mend what is wrong with America and strengthen what is good about it. I believe many Americans are, as I am, reasonably tired of political games and ready for actual change.

    Complain about this comment

  • 95. At 10:45pm on 15 Sep 2009, i_amBritinUSA wrote:

    I live in a southern state and can assure you that race is a major factor here. ALL the non white people vote for ANY non white congressman or Senator Councilor, Mayor etc with NO regard for their or their parties policies. As an ex Brit I have found that the most racist people in the USA are the Non Whites, they use race at every opportunity. ( Please note my use of the term Non Whites in an attempt to be all inclusive, multicultural and diverse)

    Complain about this comment

  • 96. At 10:53pm on 15 Sep 2009, dennisjunior1 wrote:

    Mark:

    To my earlier remarks; Since, then, Congress in the United States have admonished the Congressmen for his remarks over President Obama.....

    =Dennis Junior=

    Complain about this comment

  • 97. At 10:55pm on 15 Sep 2009, 1xblogger wrote:

    Being a Black American I can tell you that when it comes to race, you will NEVER get an honest answer to this question because no one wants to be seen as a racist, but if we are going to remove political correctness from the equation then the answer is a definitive yes. The previous administration were able to pass the Patriot Act, and take us into an unjust war with minimal protest from either side of the aisle, Obama addresses the children of the US on the first day of school to convey a positive message, there's controversy, some schools refuse to show the program. The US is one of the most racist nations on the planet, now it's coming to light in front of the world

    Complain about this comment

  • 98. At 10:56pm on 15 Sep 2009, chronophobe wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 99. At 10:57pm on 15 Sep 2009, ltfuzz wrote:

    I think these folks are the same ones the Democratic Party worried about during the election: some Southern Democrats, Independents and most Republicans; other conservative Democrats, such as those they worried about in Pennsylvania and Ohio. One has the sense of older white men just hating that he got control of the White House and it's my feeling that much of it is racist.

    My first hint of it was talking to older white Americans at the beginning of the primary campaign and in a quite liberal part of California . There were many chilling phrases given to justify their opposition to him: don't trust him, don't trust HER (Michelle Obama), he projects a superiority, he thinks he's better than me etc., etc. Made my skin crawl. Fewer accused Bill Clinton of superiority despite his obvious quite high intelligence.

    BTW, had Hillary Clinton won, those same older white men would be after her. They're really angry.

    Complain about this comment

  • 100. At 11:02pm on 15 Sep 2009, danceswithdonuts wrote:

    As a Brit in California I found the sensitivity to race here astonishing especially compared to the UK. Having seen some of the stuff the extreme right continues to do I'm no longer surprised about the reaction but dismayed the extreme right exists at all (despite being a Tory)

    Some signs (Obama Bin Lyin) could simply be deemed as amusing, but the whole debate around 'was he a Muslim' shows not just racial but religious bigotry exists writ large.

    The republicans have always seemed to have a really good grass roots "stand and shout" group. In San Jose, CA, there were signs Saturday to impeach Obama. Whether this is simply childish name calling after the impeach Bush signs, or they really believe it I can't tell.

    My point is, if you try and rationalize what the hysterical, unthinking, highly conservative grass roots are doing then you'll fail. Oh, and don't try reason and logic either.

    In part I blame the "america is great" brainwashing that continually goes on in schools reciting the pledge etc that gives these people the thought they cannot possibly be wrong

    Two thirds of Americans sympathise with, or believe, the world was created 6000 years ago. Once you believe that all other debate becomes pointless.

    There isn't an analysts couch large enough for them all.

    Complain about this comment

  • 101. At 11:03pm on 15 Sep 2009, Michael Reeves wrote:

    Of course it is racial. There is a section of US society that just cannot accept the fact a black man is President. The worst part (for them) is he is smart and articulate. Maureen Dowd wrote a beautiful, eloquent article in the New York time a few days ago on this very matter. The senator that called Obama a liar is involve in a right wing organization that wanted the confederate flag flying in South Carolina. Enough said.

    Complain about this comment

  • 102. At 11:04pm on 15 Sep 2009, AnonymousCalifornian wrote:

    Undoubtedly race is a factor for some of the opposition to the President. However, these comprise only a tiny minority of Obama's opponents, especially over something like healthcare, where things were bound to be heated irrespective of the race of the President proposing his version of reform.

    I'll admit that upon reading Congressman Wilson was from South Carolina a 'red flag' warning popped up in my mind. As others here have previously mentioned, South Carolina has the reputation for being one of the more racist states in the Union. However, there are many people who essentially agree with what he said to the President who are not racist*. If the Congressman were from another state, say Kansas, I would not jump to the conclusion that his outburst was the result of racism.

    I would consider the racists to be more heavily concentrated in the 'Obama is a Muslim; Obama isn't an American native' camp (I would point out that many American Muslims believe the former, not just looney, white far-rightists). And to my fellow Americans who are easily forgetful, recall that during the election campaign there were plenty of 'hardworking Americans [white, Democratic]' who would be beneficiaries of a public option, who agreed with all of Obama's political stands, and yet could not bring themselves to support him.

    Conversely, I think it legitimate that many libertarians and moderate Republicans who voted Obama for President are angry and feel that he 'lied' to them. Also as previously mentioned by others, what the President says often does not sync with what he does. Charges that he gives the appearance of being willing to reach across the aisle while ultimately refusing to compromise any more than he absolutely has to to get his proposal passed are entirely valid from what we've seen so far in his Presidency. Will he really remove the deficit after growing it so much to fund economic stimulus? Will his healthcare reform really cost the taxpayer not one dime more than what they are currently paying? Many reports find his claims on these issues doubtful.

    * I'm one of those people who find everybody to be racist. You're a racist, I'm a racist, we're all racists. Whether we want to admit it or not, we all discriminate (both negatively and positively) toward people based on their race. Just as we discriminate against people based on things like: their gender ('she's a woman, so she's probably nice'); their stature; and their appearance in general ('I'd rather help attractive people more than ugly ones', 'he has a pin head, so he must be stupid', 'he has an enormous head, so there's a fair chance he's smart', etc.) We should all try to treat people objectively, and should be ashamed and feel guilty when we realise that we do not, but one has to be honest with oneself and acknowledge that we're always going to fall short. An applicable BBC article on how teachers perceive their students based on their names. Not exactly racism (as names can be changed), but the principle is still there. Even if the teachers are eventually proven wrong, I would bet a vestige of their prejudice remains - not to mention how students' grades were affected (both negatively and positively) before they proved their worthiness or unworthiness.

    Complain about this comment

  • 103. At 11:10pm on 15 Sep 2009, jashay2 wrote:

    Bill Clinton was jokingly referred to as 'America's First Black President' during his Presidency because American blacks adopted him as one of their own. Barack Obama will never be seen by the black community as 'one of their own' however much they would love to feel that way about him. Deep down, the black community knows that Mr. Obama never has been and never will be 'one of them'.
    Barack Obama is one half black and one half white, but in his heart he is an elitist who reluctantly engages the 'common folk' of any color only when he needs their vote. At this point in time, Bill Clinton still holds the title of 'America's First and Only Black President' to date.

    Complain about this comment

  • 104. At 11:12pm on 15 Sep 2009, rekhamuri wrote:

    In the Soviet Union dissdents were often branded as homosexuals and confined to mental hospitals.In the United States these days a dissident is treated better.He is labelled a racist and is not sent to mental hospitals.

    Complain about this comment

  • 105. At 11:12pm on 15 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    48. At 8:57pm on 15 Sep 2009, Kennymains1 wrote:
    Who has race affected more? It seems to me that a larger percentage of the black people support president Obama because of his color compared to the percentage of white people that reject him because of it. I think one group could be blamed more for ignorance in what they chose to overlook because of skin color. And I think it may be the former not the latter.
    ----------------------------------
    Perfect racist comment

    Why do you assume they voted for him because he was black.?


    Could they not have voted for him as I did because he did not threaten to BOMBBOMBBOMB iran
    or OBliterate them
    or because he was better at showing a cool response to a testy situation.

    or that he showed intelligence.

    that is why a lot of people voted for him.
    I met not one person that said"because he's black" but a lot said he's the only one that seems to understa

    Complain about this comment

  • 106. At 11:12pm on 15 Sep 2009, NancyCanuck wrote:

    Race is always a factor in the US, sad to say.
    But with the Obama change issue, I think there's an even bigger factor at play -- identity.
    For many Americans, America means capitalism full stop. Since they have a strong emotional attachment to their national identity, they defend it against new and challenging ideologies.
    Back in the 1960s, the rest of the Western world figured out how to weave durable social programs into capitalist economies to create balanced, flexible societies. But the US was entrenched in the McCarthy era at that time. All talk of socialism was punishable. So they missed the boat, so to speak.
    McCarthyism is still a big part of the American identity. Many older, whiter, and less educated Americans believe that that America cannot do anything socialist or it will cease to be America. They revile their few government agencies and do their best to ensure their failure. To them, America is the best in the world at everything and therefore should never have to change.
    Or apologize.
    It's sad. Watching from north of the border, we see a lot of suffering in the US because of this warped identity. It is America's prison right now. I hope they can escape it and join us all on the other side.

    Complain about this comment

  • 107. At 11:14pm on 15 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    82. At 10:21pm on 15 Sep 2009, powermeerkat wrote:
    Re#47

    Keith (fromUS) thank you from the bottom of my heart. I might have easily presented (revealed?) myself as a racist here, because I quite often cut to the chase, don't beat around the bush ("W" is out of office so I guess I wound't have problem using that expression) and - horrible dictu - frequently CALL A SPADE A SPADE."


    And am only fit to use one.



    "I genuinly didn't know that the term 'Spade has (acquired?) a negative connotation, although I've just realized that -yes! - it IS a WHITE weapon. How can we have an honest exchange of views if we cannot even call a spade a spade? [By the way, what should we call it? Sword? Foil?
    That's a different kind of white -oops!- weapon.]"


    Hmm it has been a derogatory phrase for at least 60 years. So what does that say about you?


    "It's bad enough that I cannot sing "I'm pretty, and witty and GAY" any more; and not only bacause I'm no longer pretty or witty."


    Gay has been a sexual reference for at least 150 years (the "gay" women referred to prostitutes). You are not up on this are you?


    "Can one still mention former Iraqi dictator's surname, current Egyptian president's last name, or even al-Qaida leader's first name without arrousing a suspicion that perhaps one is trying to use a race card, or a religion card?"

    Depends how you use it eh? Like referring to a bunch of "micks" or referring to "throwing a Paddy" is not taken as a compliment.

    GO to your local American Irish bar and check it out. But be prepared for a robust response.



    "And imagine, that merely 25 years ago PC stood only for 'personal computer'. :-("

    And Police Constable.

    "P.S. Tiger Woods upset quite a few people, when,couple of years ago he bluntly refused to be coopted by African American community or Asian-American community, and any other ethnic group.

    Calling a spade a spade -oops again - the famous golfer stated:

    "I am not black, I'm not Asian, Im' not white; I am AMERICAN!"


    Really is this the same Tiger who mentioned on various billboards that there were clubs in the US which prevented him from playing on account of his colour.



    Quite a bold statement, Tiger. [Oops, have I just drawn a wild card?]



    Complain about this comment

  • 108. At 11:15pm on 15 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    91. At 10:40pm on 15 Sep 2009, _marko wrote:
    To MariaTee #18, or people who use the phrase "race card"

    What makes you able to distinguish between someone playing the race card and a valid accusation of racism?

    Isn't the purpose of using that phrase just to diminish criticism, without supplying a counter argument, or is that just playing the logical, I can't defend the position, I'm just guessing, it's just my opinion card?"


    Yes and do victims of sexual assault play the "rape card". Or does this only apply to rascism.

    Complain about this comment

  • 109. At 11:18pm on 15 Sep 2009, wildLTalbot wrote:

    I think it is naive to think that race is not a factor but to be fair what percentage of black people out of the whole population of blacks originally voted for Obama. I would guess it was conspicuously high.

    Complain about this comment

  • 110. At 11:18pm on 15 Sep 2009, StephenKenney wrote:

    As an American living here in the UK (with a brother in DC who participated in the demonstration Saturday on behalf of our extended family) I can tell you that regarding your question:

    "The allegation is that many of those who are calling their president "un-American" mean he is not white. Democratic propaganda, over-sensitivity or truth?"

    My answer is - Democratic propaganda. It is clear that the rhetoric being used in the media is designed to change the basis of the debate to improve the odds of success of the Democratic Party initiative on 'universal healthcare".

    When I describe the President's behavior with respect to this issue as un-American, it reflects my view that the President is not acting in accordance with our constitution or respecting the fundamental position that powers not explicitly provided to the Federal Government in the constitution reside with the States. The President's attempt to secure this power for the Federal Government without following the due process of constitutional amendment is un-American.

    Complain about this comment

  • 111. At 11:18pm on 15 Sep 2009, ally1333 wrote:

    Having lived in the Southern USA for almost my entire life, and being able to witness the situation there first hand, I know that the people who seemed to be pegged as anti-racial progress are more often than not simply anti-progress in general. Racism may be a contributing factor in the rude behavior towards the President, but most of the resistance against his policies seems to be coming from a Cold-War era fear of nationalization.

    Pegging Democrats as communists, socialists or just generally un-American has been going on for quite some time, and is certainly not reserved for only black Democrats. In fact, the term un-American seems to be perpetually bandied about by both sides of the aisle and for some reason still holds weight as a label.

    Either way, the labels and critiques are not new because the President is black, more that the rudeness in the debate has been upped a notch.

    Complain about this comment

  • 112. At 11:20pm on 15 Sep 2009, IMAProgressive wrote:

    I'm curious to know, how many people who posted a comment here who think race is not a factor are white?

    Many people claim that what they fear is more government control, but they fail to realize that it's really the corporations in control. The government is there to make sure that the scales don't tip in their favour. One party tries to pull out all the stops for the corporations, slanting the wealth in one direction, and the other party tries to maintain checks and balances. If we had had these checks and balances in the financial sector, then we would not be undergoing this financial meltdown.

    But will somebody tell me why race is not a factor when I got an email forwarded to me with a picture of Obama's head atop a Papua New Guinea tribesman? Will someone tell me why I wouldn't get waited on in a restaurant in Georgia (I am brown) when no one else was in the place? You cannot pinpoint racism unless people directly come out and admits that they are--or their actions are so overt, such as in my experience in Georgia. And that was just one of a handful of other racist experiences I have had...

    Complain about this comment

  • 113. At 11:23pm on 15 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    There's a hell of a lot that claim stats prove the blacks were racist.
    really.
    Is it racist to not vote for a party that has victimised you.
    a party that locks blacks up and takes their right to vote away in higher proportions to the races .

    At the elections J mc cain picked sara palin (someone who we are not allowed to call names according to the mods).
    that alone sent loads Obama's way.
    If they were planning to vote for him.
    When he emerged there were plenty of blacks who did not take him seriously and though him a token.
    then they realised he was a real person.

    Then they said they would vote for him.
    http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2008/06/17/pin/

    real non racist stuff. before the election but now it is all genuine complaint.

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    more now he's elected racism.

    There are some real bad ones. just look for yourself.

    Complain about this comment

  • 114. At 11:24pm on 15 Sep 2009, Xenu007 wrote:

    Of course it has to do with race! I'm white and you should hear my aunt, uncle, mother-in-law, sister-in-law, and all their friends, when they criticize Obama! The only thing they don't do is use the n-word! But they might as well, because that level of hatred is already burning in their hearts. I hate family get-togethers now. In public, they would always keep their criticism to the issue at hand, but behind closed doors . . . it's full on racism.

    Complain about this comment

  • 115. At 11:26pm on 15 Sep 2009, AnonymousCalifornian wrote:

    totone1 (81): "I am honestly stating that I have hatred towards President Obama not solely because he is half black, but that he or anyone else admits that he is also half white."

    I take it that you mean you're angry when multiracial Americans do no consider themselves to be [part] white? Taking that to be the case, have you ever considered why that is? Instead of blaming the multiracial individual, maybe you should direct your ire at the society in which they/we live. I can guarantee you that the white race (as the majority in society) disowned multiracial Americans long before multiracial Americans had any chance to disown the white race (being considered as belonging to their non-white race(s) before they were even born).

    "Take race out of the census and just count Americans and a lot of this discriminatory behavior goes away."
    One would think this would be the case. However, France, which does not take racial or religious figures when counting its census, has a considerable amount of racial division. Hiding a problem in the hopes that it will go away in time does not always work. On the flip side, focusing too much on one's race only serves to divide our people and inculcate us into viewing each other through racial identification, with all its detrimental and beneficial pitfalls depending on which race(s) one belongs to.

    Complain about this comment

  • 116. At 11:28pm on 15 Sep 2009, KeithFromUS wrote:

    #89 bluejay60 (In Response)

    TARP money for bank bailouts where approved under the Bush administration and continue (this was not a one time good deal).

    In fact, the federal government continues to purchase banks as recently as August 28, 2009 and has purchased 414 banks during the Obama administration as compared to 252 under the Bush administration. Of course, the dollar amount under the Bush administration makes up a much larger percentage of the $204,476,764,000 of taxpayer dollars that have been spent due to the fact that the largest banks were bailed out first. But please for the sake of sanity look at what we the people are being signed up for in national debt. Reference: http://money.cnn.com/news/specials/storysupplement/bankbailout/

    I am no Bush apologist. I think my following quotes show no discernment between Republican or Democrat when it comes to my primary point:

    - "the government has no concept of operating under a balanced budget or fiscal responsibility and many citizens find it appalling."
    - "the government has a long history of pork, fraud, waste, and mismanagement"
    - "The problem a great many people have is that they do not see the government as good stewards of monies earned by the people"



    I think this is fairly straight forward in the sense that I do not blame one party or the other and am pointing out a frustration of government out of control for the last 30 years.

    Current national debt is 11,792,615,473,271.79 as of today. Reference: http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np

    When does it end?

    Respectfully,
    Keith

    Complain about this comment

  • 117. At 11:33pm on 15 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    103jashey.
    tell me why Obama is not the first black president and bill is.
    and what your background is.
    I have to assume that as you speak for all blacks that you are black. In which case I ask how black does he have to be.
    I doubt that he was called "white boy".
    Unless there was some of that anti mixed race sentiment.

    Do explain how he is not dark enough for you.

    Complain about this comment

  • 118. At 11:35pm on 15 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    113 I'd assume that the right wing URL blocked was because it was racist.
    Sorry for trying to point out that there is a bunch of racist stuff out there.
    Proves my point that because the BBC has rules this debate will never be ended in a fair manner because the wealth of racist comments are not allowed to be published in the UK under UK law.
    Thank god.

    Complain about this comment

  • 119. At 11:36pm on 15 Sep 2009, righteousresearcher wrote:

    jorseno,
    I would like to sponsor you to move to America. You articulate your point very well. You precisely have pinned the mood and the current movement of America. Sadly there are many americans who love sociallism, support a marxist president blindly and think this current political upheaval is a game; us vs. them, looser vs. winner. You remember "I won, now shut up". We are getting dangerously close to the precipice, the most dangerous animal in the world is man (or woman) when they are cornered, told they are Nazis, must give what they spent there lives earning to others, told if they do not support a partial black/partial white president they are racist. Well I guess based on the definitions of the Alinsky devotees I am a racist. Yes I did specifically choose my wife based on color, brown. She was a very attractive Mexican woman with light brown skin, I thought, cool, permanent tan. What I spent hours at the beach trying to obtain. Oh I'm sorry I am racist

    Complain about this comment

  • 120. At 11:36pm on 15 Sep 2009, beebeecee_is_corrupt wrote:

    It is appalling that the BBC is desperate enough to play the race card again with this non-article. If the BBC were truly concerned about racism it would be up in arms about the racist voting which got Obama elected in the first place, or the many occasions in which representatives of black American groups have been critical of a white president, or critical of the very existence of the racist pro-black groups. This considerable bias serves only to prove that the BBC is no longer a news source but a megaphone for the left agenda.

    Complain about this comment

  • 121. At 11:38pm on 15 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    IMAprogressive.
    that tribesman was the URL removed.
    but then there is no racism in this just genuine nutcases.

    I'm with you. And just posted that race would be important in determining some's reaction.
    (though they claim it is racist to ask if someone is white or not.
    The poor poor victimised white racists. they feel so left out. so put down. but then they always think it is about them.

    Complain about this comment

  • 122. At 11:40pm on 15 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    I hope all those saying 'when will it end . we are spending too much 'asked the same questions of Bush.
    but I doubt it.

    Complain about this comment

  • 123. At 11:43pm on 15 Sep 2009, Leon1960 wrote:

    Of course is racial!!!! What else could it be? It's unexplicable to me why these people go out of their way to oppose: equal healthcare for all.

    Complain about this comment

  • 124. At 11:44pm on 15 Sep 2009, biophaze6 wrote:

    Living in Tennessee, Most people are very conservative. But though many of these people have reasonable fears about health care reform. Many people are just ignorant. During the election people thought he was a Muslim who wants to destroy America. People even today think that the fact his middle name is Hussein is a reason to hate him and call him a terrorist. The Right always accuses Minorities of playing the race card. When at the same time white conservatives are calling Obama a terrorist because of his name. I think it is silly and naive to deny that there is racism in America, particularly in the south. In the south people just can't wrap their head around simple things like why the confederate flag is offensive. Many think racism is one way towards whites. Even educated people in the south, complain about affirmitive action so much they are offensive and believe that minorities have it easy without realizing white people haven't endured slavery, civil rights, and discrimination. As a teenager, I first noticed that whenever a black person did something good. many white people reply "he only got there because he's black" (like they said about obama) Growing up in the south has turned me bitter towards this ignorance. It is a major problem that Americans think there is no hatred While Millions of Americans think homosexuals are deviants. Whether it is race, religion, or sexual orientation, America is far from being a good example of acceptance. Though much of the concern is just conservatives worrying about death panels and other bogus rumors. Though yes there is reason to dislike the Plan, the conversation needs to get away from rumors and racism and towards constructive talks.

    Complain about this comment

  • 125. At 11:48pm on 15 Sep 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    Race may be a factor in the behavior of the most radical elements behind the ongoing protests, but I don't think it is the reason for the uncertainty that so many Americans feel about the adoption of a public option to solve our healthcare problems. Demonstrations of racism, such as those voiced by a "pastor" who wished the death of the President are not representative of mainstream America.

    IMO, the main motivators are ideological and political opportunism fueled by a clever campaign financed by special interests and endorsed by politicians whose careers depend on the donations they get from wealthy sponsors.

    The most disturbing part of what is taking place in our country is the anger that is evident in the protests and the scope of the objections being voiced by the far right. If we didn't know better we would have to conclude that the GOP won the last election. Camaraderie and decorum have been replaced by overt manifestations of prejudice, ideological extremism, and hatred.

    The problem is exacerbated by a complicit and irresponsible media more interested in selling commercials than covering the news responsibly.
    Coverage of support, constructive criticisms and relevant suggestions are dismissed and ignored, and are often replaced by depictions of mob like demonstrations that should be a case study for every psychiatrist in this country.

    A few years ago most Democrats were so terrified of being considered out of step with the stated political dictum that many were fearful of even putting a sign in their lawns or cars endorsing a Democratic candidate for fear of retribution; today the same crowd that was so feared then has taken the initiative and is determined to undo what 53% of the American people voted for while a complacent electorate looks on and let them set the pace for the rest of us.

    Complain about this comment

  • 126. At 11:50pm on 15 Sep 2009, ecrtiger wrote:

    I'm American and prior to moving to my present home of Atlanta, GA, lived in South Carolina for many years. The leaders of South Carolina have been embarrassing the citizens of the state recently but that is a whole story on it's own.

    I do not agree with President Obama's views on health care reform or many of his other views. But, my disagreement with his policies doesn't make me a racist anymore than his policies make him unAmerican. Both are ludicrous ideas. He is our President and we must support him but at the same time we are a democracy and should be able to freely share opinions, debate philosophies, etc.

    Complain about this comment

  • 127. At 11:52pm on 15 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    102 Anon cali

    nice thoughtful post.

    I think the anti's might have a few more No american types in the fold though.

    to another poster


    " It is not a crime to be rich unless the means to the end were ill gotten gains."
    so the rich making the rules wouldn't be able to fix that then.

    Dick Cheney never profited from sending haliburton no bid contracts?

    Complain about this comment

  • 128. At 11:53pm on 15 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    When does the reasoning about race end.
    There must be more black people within the voting system than any other race and additionally also include supporters, if what I have read is to have a basis. Since I already know that this is not so, I must conclude that the election and swearing in process confirmed that many voters white,black and many other folks contributed. Now if that is true then why would voters all of a sudden decide to turn racist and go against the same person they voted in? Undeniable knowledge tells me that there are people who are racist but the same reasoning tells me they are not the majority. Many people who are protesting Obama's plan on health care do so because they don't want that system for them, if you happen to be black and want that option just because the guy proposing it is also black then that is plain racist and wouldn't vote him out of office even if he let someone you love die for lack of proper health care. Blind allegiance is the worst kind. It is like saying that during all other elections where there were only white candidates it did not matter who won as long as it was a white guy! that is simply outrageous. Don't contribute by using race as an excuse, Obama can most assuredly defend himself quite nicely. Besides he would not be happy if he thought black people only voted for him because he was the only black person running. He had earned his position and now with these words by some he only becomes a black president. He is the president of all Americans, like it or not! When the people don't like something about even the president they say so. Again, some are purely misguided, others scares for their families and self. The one thing I have always known about politicians is that once in office they quickly begin to forget about you and me. Joe Wilson enjoys the freedom we all have in America. Even if he were to sound sincere in an apology, why bother. It goes to show the way we throw shoes here is verbally. Pride is not necessarily a good thing at times. Progress has shown itself. Be willing to chastise (if you must)a wrong, when you feel it so. Making a Federal case(big deal) out of supporting someone because of just one particular is very divisive and potentially dangerous. I am not black, I accept Mr. Obama as the president. I do not like the way he closes his ears to so many who disapprove with him on health care reform.

    Complain about this comment

  • 129. At 11:54pm on 15 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 130. At 00:00am on 16 Sep 2009, alanskillcole wrote:

    For those who say "you British have enough problems to confront at home without concerning yourselves with us Americans" remember:
    Mark is the North American editor on the British Broadcasting Corporation website. It is from a British perspective - Mark hasn't voiced an opinion, he's opened it up to debate.

    The birthers, the frightening scenes, those shouting about the nation being taken over by err those of another religious persuasion, the tea-partyers, the shock jock-y types calling the Prez a racist/socialist/whether he likes dijon mustard/the weird level of the "debate", the Malkin lot, all may not be so surprising - given the standard demographics of the opposition.

    Like the italian who can't see anything but that the Prez is "tanned", many people can't quite believe/reconcile that he's actually black...so now they say he's "half-white".
    Since when has any black person - and many have some mixture in the lineage - been other than seen as black.
    Maybe the Prez has to be given a new category to calm the "guns and religion" brigade.

    The rancour of the debate suggests there's more to it.
    To suddenly worry about the deficit after having kept quiet for 8 years, to suddenly want to proffer something about healthcare when they couldn't for 8 years...what's that all about?

    So, those who wonder if it's racist?
    You think?

    I just hope he walks away in 2012 and leaves them to it.

    Complain about this comment

  • 131. At 00:02am on 16 Sep 2009, FatherBrown wrote:

    You betcha, the US of A is a racist place. We have enshrined our racism and we wear it proudly with our Bible-thumping, Darwin-hating, 10 Commandment loving court rooms, science hating - you get the picture of the newly media empowered rabble.....I am almost of a mind to leave this country - it's changed so utterly for the worse. Where is the hope of a better tomorrow? Who are the leaders that will champion that hope? I don't see them - there was a promise of a post-racial America in this last election, but we have been sideswiped by the economic bailout that has highjacked our future to the support of the already well-off, and the ignorant who do not understand that they have been manipulated for a larger political battle. Those Tea Parties, everything about them smells of a managed event......and where is the analysis??? Who is doing the thinking but people who owe their future to the work of Edward Bernays, NOT Paine and Jefferson.

    Complain about this comment

  • 132. At 00:04am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    95 and strange you would say that because unlike you there are a lot of racists that move to america. most tend to prefer those areas where you are not given a mouthful every-time you say a racist remark.

    From the position of not being picked on it must be easy.
    from the position of not getting pulled by the cops for being alive must be nice and totally proves your point that there are no racists white people and it is just the Blacks that are racist.
    that is why they were all locked up(one in 5 been to jail)
    that's why they are much more likely to be executed for the same crime.
    that's why you are just full of it;)

    Complain about this comment

  • 133. At 00:04am on 16 Sep 2009, giltedged wrote:

    Oh yes but the opposite also applies. Obama is praised because he is Black. 96% of Blacks voted for him. That is the reality of America. Everyone knew (apart from the lady prosecutor) that a majority Black jury would not find a Black man (OJ Simpson) guilty of murdering a White woman.
    No one mentions what Martin Luther King did the day he died. And Acorn, as we learnt recently could be described as a Black agency for Obama with questionable morals, but no one does.

    Complain about this comment

  • 134. At 00:07am on 16 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    Perceived racism works just as well as true racism, only it is unilateral at times. Isaw one interview with Obama and he was off guard and he did say, 'my Muslim Faith' and went on to say I mean christian Faith. Youtube.com has a viewing on it.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQqIpdBOg6I
    So whether it was an error or a Freudian slip I don't know for sure. I do know he said he was offended by the insinuation made by sen, McCain.

    Complain about this comment

  • 135. At 00:15am on 16 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    People might be equally upset with a white, liberal president who is expanding the government at this pace and attempting to change their health care.

    There is also the possibility that people just cannot understand the disdain for Obama. That, surely, surely, it must stem from something deeper, more sinister. It has to be more than his policies. That only his race could cause this anger.

    Well, we've had ideological battles in our country before. Many have been over the size and scope of government. Just like now.

    I think today's punishment of Wilson was to demonstrate that a president, of any color, deserves respect and to acknowledge the slight felt by Blacks.

    Complain about this comment

  • 136. At 00:19am on 16 Sep 2009, bigbadger01 wrote:

    Ridiculous. Seems like name calling to me i.e. critics of the president’s policies are racists. Sets a bad precedent for open debate and critic of the US govnt

    Complain about this comment

  • 137. At 00:23am on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    fluff;

    "120 you're a nutcase."

    Well now isn't that a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

    FatherBrown, you make Reverend Wright look like a moderate.

    "Where is the hope of a better tomorrow? Who are the leaders that will champion that hope?"

    Buyer's remorse over your new President already? He's barely been in office 8 months.

    Complain about this comment

  • 138. At 00:24am on 16 Sep 2009, CharlesMunro wrote:

    Race in America is, of course, a blindingly complex subject. Certainly, there are some who dislike President Obama out of racism or xenophobia, even some who openly admit to such.

    Race still plays a big role in any political issue here, and racist arguments frequently find their way into debates over any kind of social welfare topic.

    But I also think that political polarization has in large part taken the place of racism in our society. I am convinced that some of the current protesters who are, shall we say less than sensitive to the issue of race, would unquestioningly support a black Republican president, simply because he is a Republican. In a country where it's increasingly unacceptable to deride someone on such grounds as race, religion or sexuality, political affiliation is still wide-open. All one needs to do is listen to talk radio to notice the impressively voluminous flow of hatred aimed liberals. It may not be as violent as the old-fashioned racism of a few decades ago, but it is without question where a lot of ill will is being directed.

    Complain about this comment

  • 139. At 00:28am on 16 Sep 2009, Nevada-girl wrote:

    The furor over Obama's presidency is based on whatever the right wing blog/cable/radio spin machine wants it to be about. They are expert at tapping into American conservatives' fears - foreigners, modernity, change... Certainly having a black president is something fearful because it means things are changing, especially for the traditionally dominant WASP culture (there was a similar response to the first Catholic President, JFK for fear the Pope would come to rule America).

    The right wing machine uses its devoted followers to fulfill its goals of corporate and religious power. They may just win if these folks - most of whom are working class and will benefit from Obama's policies - don't figure out the game soon.

    Complain about this comment

  • 140. At 00:30am on 16 Sep 2009, publiusdetroiter wrote:

    Racism is a political factor and a tool that has been prevalent in our elections for as long as I can remember. (I became politically aware and politcally active in 1961) Why else are exit polls and post-election analysis broken down by race, creed, income, education, region, etc.?

    Political platforms and campaign speeches are tailored to what a variety of groups would find appealing. The object of a political candidate is to get elected. A successful bid for election is not likely to happen if the candidate is only addressing limited issues and a particular group of the electorate. There still is racism in the U.S. since the segragational signs came down from the rest rooms, restaurants, et. al.; it is only less noticable in comparison to what it once was.

    When one reads and hears the ranting, we find that racism is an ugly slur used as a demonizing tool; but more important, we read and hear hysteria. I witness the hysteria and wonder who are these electorate? I wonder if they are the well-informed, active electorate who have consistantly exercised their franchise in every election; or the ill-informed, inactive electorate rising from lethargy to vent their frustration and ignorance because the economy went bust and their comfortable way of life has become less comfortable? The ills of our country did not just happen overnight. They have been festering for decades through Administrations run by both parties because too many of the electorate have failed in their duty to this nation. The most important duty they owe the nation as a citizen.

    In the Presidential Election of 1996 there were less than 55% of all eligible U.S. voters who exercised their franchise. Only 62% of the electorate exercised their franchise in this most recent election. Keep in mind that even those numbers decline by 10-15% in the bi-elections when Congressional candidates are elected to represent our home districts. They are our voice. Congress creates our laws. Yet we have had less than a majorty of the electorate turn out to exercise their franchise for something so important to the political existance of our nation.

    I keep reading and hearing citizens saying that they have never been an active elector, but now style themselves as a "patriot" coming to the rescue of their beloved country before it is destroyed. Should I take up the banner with these ill-informed, inactive citizens who have failed their country for so long by not exercising their true duty as a citizen in a Republic with democratic elections? Are they the modern "sunshine patriots" who will once again fail their country by returning to lethargy once they discover that it takes more than carrying a sign and chanting drivel to be a well-informed, active electorate?

    "We the people..." are the government. When we blame the government for failing; we blame ourselves for failing to govern.

    Complain about this comment

  • 141. At 00:33am on 16 Sep 2009, Alex Lee wrote:

    All this hoopla about how protests against Obama's legislation are racist is complete oversensitivity and are borderline libelous. The fact that most of the protesters at the tea parties and town hall meetings are of European descent is not because white Americans believe they are inherently superior in every way to non-whites (which is the definition of racism). Are there still a handful of people that feel this way in the United States? Of course. Any halfwit can see, though, that the overwhelming majority of protesters against Obama's legislation disapprove of the President's legislation, not his race.
    Anyone who claims that town hall protesters are racist (and who directly or implicitly claim that people who did not and do not support Obama's policies are also racist) needs to get a grip and a clue.

    The only people still talking about race are those who are desperately trying to convince Americans that Obama's grandiose "plans" are still viable and good for the nation. Get over it.

    Complain about this comment

  • 142. At 00:34am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgWFxFg7-GU

    Sorry the racists that say they are not.

    Complain about this comment

  • 143. At 00:35am on 16 Sep 2009, Leslie Farkas wrote:

    If he is assinated, then the trouble will start. I remember the riots in 1968 after Martin Luther King was killed; 48 cities, including my hometown went up in flames.

    If it happens again, this time it will be worse. Certain elements of the the "Hood" has been busy selling dope and buying guns for the last 40 years. 1968 was a picnic compared to what will happen if there are riots again.


    I don't have much faith in the future of the USA. The Governor of Texas, a former Confederate State that once engaged in violent treason against the US, promised secession if the Feds made him take additional unemployment compensation benefits! Draw your own conclusions.


    I fear that Obama will not serve out his term of office. I appreciate that he is trying to help the average person, but the US has too many fault lines of division based upon racial hatred, class warfare by the rich against the poor, love of guns and love of money over everything else.


    Lincoln warned that a house divided against itself will not stand. This house is divided and it won't stand.

    Complain about this comment

  • 144. At 00:35am on 16 Sep 2009, leader1111 wrote:

    Rubbish. The tea party protesters are not racist and represent every age and socioeconomic level. There are many independent, republican, libertarian and a few democrats. Whites are the main protesters, but immigrants and blacks have joined our protests. We had all of these present on Saturday amongst our 2,000 plus crowd in a tiny city. No one cares what colour Obama is as they oppose big government, crippling taxes, uncontrolled government waste, federal funding of African abortions, denying congress to even read trillion dollar legislation, ACORN registering dead people and promoting underage sexual slavery, and unconstitutional and unvetted czars. The list is endless. The people approve of our health care by over 80%. J.C. Watts (Fm. Congressman and Business man), Michael Steele (Fm Lieutenant Governor of Maryland, Head of the Republican Party) are black (more black then Obama) and would make excellent Presidents, etc. As Obama did during the campaign he talks the moderate line but is left wing along with the Democratic congress and the American people learn quickly and are not stupid. Besides it was the President who stated the police were racist, not the American public, during the Gates episode when he called the white policeman doing his job the racist. It showed his true colours in an instant, unguarded moment. The American people knew, and weren't fooled. The police union demanded that Obama retract his slur, and even then Obama did not give a clear apology. The liberal media are mentioning almost nothing of their darling messiah, but the American people in their hundreds of thousands are speaking with a growing voice. Democracy is overcoming the media prejudices.

    Complain about this comment

  • 145. At 00:47am on 16 Sep 2009, sapphire_407 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 146. At 00:47am on 16 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    131. FatherBrown: "You betcha, the US of A is a racist place. We have enshrined our racism and we wear it proudly with our Bible-thumping, Darwin-hating, 10 Commandment loving court rooms, science hating - you get the picture of the newly media empowered rabble....."

    ********************
    Whose hatred, exactly, did you wish to tell us about?

    Under the guise of talking about racism, we hear about the ugly, racist, redneck Right, the hated Bush, etc.

    Complain about this comment

  • 147. At 00:52am on 16 Sep 2009, nwcanadian wrote:

    Is race a factor? Of course. In any society there will be people for whom race is an issue, but they are not in the majority. If they were, Obama would not have been elected President. To cry "racism" every time you are met with any criticism or opposition makes you look stupid and ineffectual. Counter with a reasoned argument. It's the ideas that matter, not the race of the person articulating them.

    Complain about this comment

  • 148. At 00:52am on 16 Sep 2009, CyberJustAmerican wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 149. At 00:52am on 16 Sep 2009, AdJoMat wrote:

    The biggest challenge Obama faces in conservative America is his race, no doubt about it. They'll complain about whatever is convenient to complain about that won't bring them rebuke, but race is one of the underlying and motivating factors for a lot of these people's opposition to everything Obama. If only it were just about policy...

    Complain about this comment

  • 150. At 00:57am on 16 Sep 2009, Loren wrote:

    As Martin Luther King one said, the color of ones' skin should not matter, rather the content of ones character. I am a Caucasian who voted straight Democratic in the 2008 election. George W had really screwed things up and helped to make the rich richer, he lied to the American people and was not the person to lead our country. Obama seem to be a much better choice when he talked about transparency, curbing medical drug costs by using the governments clout to force PhRMA to lower drug prices, or we would import foreign drugs, plus he would get us out of the Middle East quagmire as soon as possible. Most of those have proven to be intentional lies. Need I say more?

    Complain about this comment

  • 151. At 00:57am on 16 Sep 2009, MagicKirin wrote:

    Crying racism is the last refuge of a scoundral. This tatics has been used by Obama supporters during the campaign and his presidency. This is the same tatic used by supporters of Jessie Jackson, Louis Farakhan and Al Sharpeton

    Note I am refering to the supporters not Obama

    Complain about this comment

  • 152. At 00:58am on 16 Sep 2009, DallasMerlin wrote:

    I find it profoundly disturbing that any opposition to any policy of the Obama administration is disparaged by folks characterizing it as racist.

    Racism is the electric fence that divides our society and is killing to those who touch it. To claim that opponents have touched it is a particularly vicious attack. It attempts to shift the debate to "Are you racist", rather than focusing on the merits of the policy under discussion.

    Many good people of all races oppose many of the policies of the Obama administration and congress. This is a political and philosophical difference that should be treated with respect and civil discourse.

    Those I have talked with sincerely disagree with the policy, not the person or his or her race. While there clearly are crazies on both sides who play the race card, most of us steer away from it and try to focus on effective promotion of our views on the issues at hand.

    The inherent racism of the editorial is intriguing: why not "Is race a factor in Obama support?" To implicitly disparage opposition/protest as racial motivated is inappropriate and, I would have hoped, below the dignity of this columnist.

    Complain about this comment

  • 153. At 00:59am on 16 Sep 2009, Reuben wrote:

    The left have pulled the race card in an effort to avoid the real issue.

    Obama's African DNA is not the issue. America proved that when he was elected with such a large majority.

    We do not trust this government with our health care.

    Obama, and this democrat controlled congress, have demonstrated, time and again: they cannot be trusted. The huge bailouts proved they are not working for the people. The House vote on Rep. Wilson's reprimand went along party lines. That demonstrates very clearly: democrats and republicans have completely different views about this.

    Any form of protest or dissention is not welcome.

    What better way of pretending our concerns are not important than by calling us racists? But it won't work this time.

    Those genuine racists that are left are so few, and so marginalized, our own Justice Department has said they don’t matter. They are just a bunch of crackpots that no-one listens to anymore. But they aren't the people protesting. Common folks who work and pay taxes, are fed up and won't take it any more.

    America has faced her racist demons and beaten them down, we are not afraid of your name calling; we can examine this issue and see:

    People of all races have everything to loose if this government gains control over their healthcare.

    Complain about this comment

  • 154. At 01:01am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 155. At 01:02am on 16 Sep 2009, AnonymousCalifornian wrote:

    To those crying racism regarding the high black vote for Obama in both the primaries and general election:

    While it was definitely racism, it was racism of the understandable sort. For centuries blacks have been treated poorly in our country, more so than any other race, and as the second race in a largely biracial society for much of our history a 'black community' developed, just as a 'white community' did (with its golden age of targeted immigration and eugenics prior to World War II). That blacks would desire to see someone of their race in the Presidency for the first time is entirely understandable. It would be 'proof' that their race is not inferior in any way to any other race (I've just touched on a really sensitive issue in the race debates). If the situation were reversed, with whites being on the receiving end of oppression from a black majority for centuries, being told they could not succeed based on moral and cognitive deficiencies hardwired into their DNA (and thus unchangeable) you would be sure to see an overwhelmingly high percentage of white voters voting for the first credible white Presidential candidate.

    To some extent, you'd see the same response for the first Northeast Asian and Latino Presidential candidates from members of those communities. It would only be lesser because those groups tend to identify more by country of origin than race. Also because these groups in general receive less negative racism directed at them, respectively, than do blacks (I'm excluding black Latinos). Still, Chinese Americans would vote for the Chinese Presidential candidate, Mexican Americans would vote the Mexican Presidential candidate, and to a lesser degree Chinese Americans would vote for a generic Asian American candidate and Mexican Americans would vote for a generic Latino American candidate.

    This is not something to be proud of, and is not something that should be considered right. It is in fact a sign of the sickness in one aspect of our society. But it is understandable given our history--you can't just erase four centuries of socio-cultural development overnight. It's just the way things are, unfortunately. Hopefully things will change for the better--for all races--eventually.

    Complain about this comment

  • 156. At 01:03am on 16 Sep 2009, usmike wrote:

    For the majority of Americans this is definitely not an issue of race. His plan is flawed. The left is bringing up the race issue to gain support for Obama and undermine opposition. Politicians constantly bring up other issues in order to draw attention away from real problems. A better question to pose is why do you oppose Obama's healthcare plan? Had Hillary Clinton been elected we would be debating whether or not the president's sex has anything to do with opposition to the plan. The issue is the healthcare plan. Obama's race has nothing to do with it. We will never be free of racism until everybody stops using it as a scapegoat or an excuse.

    Complain about this comment

  • 157. At 01:07am on 16 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    There are people writing here opposed to health care reform who are seriously trying to tell me that there is no racism involved? When I have followed up at least one 'anti-' site posted here in one of the threads devoted to the issue and seen prominently displayed a caricature of the President that might have belonged to something from the mid-1800's or 1920's?

    And seen many others looking around on the internet.

    When I have read so many implicit characterisations, particularly of Mexicans, bust also of south American immigrants in the same debate? And, further back, of Native Americans?

    When I read so often here of 'Muslims' referred to as though all who profess that religion are somehow a single homogenous group of Arabs?

    As they say, pull the other one, it's got bells on it.




    Complain about this comment

  • 158. At 01:07am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    144"The tea party protesters are not racist and represent every age and socioeconomic level."

    DUDe how very unracist of you to not mention race.
    Most of us know there are rich and poor racists most also know there are young and old racists.
    most also know there are some racists of all races.

    but here in america .Today. there are a hell of a lot of racists who are using any excuse to knock the 'black man" then claim they are knocking the white part.

    One kitten once said "they tend to be lazy and unemployable blacks" but that was removed by the mods in a rare example of moderation (back in the primaries) of course the complain about this comment probably spurred them on.

    Complain about this comment

  • 159. At 01:10am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    143 leslie.
    Have hope.

    I have a reputation for slamming americans.
    well it is well deserved as are the slams;) but I see the people did vote for Obama when so many said that he had no chance.

    I think they may see what he is up to eventually.
    and that is treading a fine line very carefully.

    Complain about this comment

  • 160. At 01:12am on 16 Sep 2009, empathy996 wrote:

    CHIP stands for Children Health Insurance Program. As a lapse Catholic I may be out of practice but from what I learned helping children is generally a good thing. Now maybe they're illegal, but does that really change anything? Did they stop being children in need? Perhaps it's acceptable to just go along with that idea. That since they're not my children, or a child of a community that I decided was American. If a law passed tomorrow granting these children citizenship would they be more of a child? If a law passed tomorrow changing the laws that applied to everyone who steamed their way here from Europe to illegals, would that make them any less American? As for the argument about race? When I hear a child referring to the president as the "n" word in the heart of liberal Westchester NY... yeah it makes me uneasy... even ashamed. I don't know however if it's enough to matter in the healthcare debate. At least I wouldn't like to think it is... I hope it's not.

    Complain about this comment

  • 161. At 01:12am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    are black (more black then Obama)

    ?

    Complain about this comment

  • 162. At 01:15am on 16 Sep 2009, sapphire_407 wrote:

    At least the Washington Post does not moderate (approve) comments and they are posted as soon as you type them. Thank God for America and our free speech.

    Complain about this comment

  • 163. At 01:17am on 16 Sep 2009, kwillory wrote:

    Put it this way. When they were showing footage of the demonstrations in D.C., I scoured the faces in the crowds for any non-Caucasians.

    I'm sure there were a few. I just didn't see any.

    Complain about this comment

  • 164. At 01:20am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    138 charles
    " I am convinced that some of the current protesters who are, shall we say less than sensitive to the issue of race, would unquestioningly support a black Republican president, simply because he is a Republican."

    I would say they would vote for him/her IF the candidate promised to be tough on forners. and low on taxes. but would drop him like a lead balloon once they won if he didn't " keep his kind in their place"

    Complain about this comment

  • 165. At 01:20am on 16 Sep 2009, 4liberty wrote:

    racism is the terrorism of the left
    just as bush and his right wingers used the word terrorism to shut down any intelligent dialogue about his policies obama's left wingers use racism/sexism etc. to avoid having to listen to dissedent voices
    as a libertarian under bush i listened as the left labeled dissent the "truest form of patriotism" today that same dissent is "racism" or "unamerican" if it goes against obama's agenda
    the fact that i hate government bailouts of ineffective companies and being taxed to pay for the mistakes of others doesn't make me a racist at all
    the fact that many would use obama's color to try to scare people away from expressing their opinions, i believe, is an opportunistic form of racism
    i for one would be more than happy to have a black american to run for a third party (libertarian)
    i bet he would get the most votes this century for a third party candidate in the US. i mean americans would have to vote for him
    we wouldn't want to be racists would we?

    Complain about this comment

  • 166. At 01:21am on 16 Sep 2009, USAF86 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 167. At 01:23am on 16 Sep 2009, LochAwe wrote:


    Absolutely racism is a factor. It is the major factor with regard to the protesters.

    However, it is not a factor for those who fund and enable the protests; profit and control are their only guiding principles.

    There is an unbridgeable gulf between the two groups in terms of wealth and opportunity, yet those behind the protests have managed to get the poorly-educated and ill-informed Fox News viewers; the followers of Beck & Limbaugh, to do their footwork - and their screaming - for them.

    It all boils down to this: when the protesters scream about their rights being taken away; about "communism" and "socialism," they are actually screaming because, for the first time in their lives, they no longer feel secure about being in the majority in the USA as either a political faction or as a race. And that, quite simply, scares the living hell out of them.

    It only takes a brief look at the signs and placards full of racial hatred directed toward President Obama to know that racism is the overriding factor to these protesters.

    The people carrying these signs have always been racists. Beck has just made it okay for them to be open about it. And the groups behind the protests - those who have the most to lose under true reform - are only too happy to stoke their anger and fund their protests.

    I say this as a 50-something-year-old white woman from America. If this were merely a matter of disagreement over policy, we would not be seeing the extreme levels of vitriol and fury that are so prevalent in these protests.






    Complain about this comment

  • 168. At 01:25am on 16 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    If you want an interesting moment to make a comparison to:
    Imagine Bush and Gore and Imagine Gore as black, being the votes
    were electoral and not actual per Ca pita, would that have sent many screaming voter fraud more than the Gore folks yelled? It could be just as easy to misinterpret the current dilemma. I am not looking forward to stepping to the street one day and have to duck bullets. All of this has already happened in other less civilized or lesser advanced countries. There is no more a formidable opponent than ourselves. One thing that I do know about is the guarantee Obama made about his health plans success . Together with the implementation of a database in which there is already a billion dollar investment, the carriage before the horse? Maybe he knows something some don't.
    But when all is said and done, the very best I could do, along with this blog is done.
    40+ years I have been paying into a system. If I am wronged now I do not have another 40.
    Give me a pill, play me a song, pull the plug.

    Complain about this comment

  • 169. At 01:28am on 16 Sep 2009, chronophobe wrote:

    Having read the comments above, some questions about race spring to mind:

    Is there such a thing as the 'white' a race, and if so, how do you define it?


    Is there such a thing as the 'black' a race, and if so, how do you define it?

    Do you believe 'blacks' and 'whites' have played roles of equal importance in the history of the United States? If not, why not?

    Complain about this comment

  • 170. At 01:30am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    151 Gherkin. do give up trying to pretend to be just offended by his politics.
    You only like those blacks that support the destruction of Palestinians. otherwise you dismiss all their comments or their worth.

    Complain about this comment

  • 171. At 01:34am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    160 empathy.
    where did you learn that skill.
    I'm sorry you have to hear the racists.
    AND AGAIN TO ALL THE RACISTS.
    IF WE POSTED YOUR COMMENTS ON OTHER SITES HERE THEY WOULD BE BANNED.
    SO STOP TRYING TO SAY"YOU HAVE NO EXAMPLE SO SHUT UP"

    See I SHOUT BECAUSE YU ARE OBVIOUSLY HAVING A PROBLEM WITH YOUR ENGLISH AND LEARNING WHAT THE WORD RACISM MEANS.
    AS A BRIT I KNOW THAT SHOUTING HELPS THOSE WHO CANNOT SPEAK OR UNDERSTAND A LANGUAGE TO GET THE GIST.


    Complain about this comment

  • 172. At 01:37am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 173. At 01:37am on 16 Sep 2009, Brian Golden wrote:

    Bush took a huge amount of abuse and for me it was mostly justified. But I'd feel the same way if he was black. Would I have been called a racist if he was?

    That is the benchmark really.

    Thats not to say Joe Wilson didn't make a fool of himself.

    Complain about this comment

  • 174. At 01:41am on 16 Sep 2009, USAF86 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 175. At 01:41am on 16 Sep 2009, IMAProgressive wrote:

    Some people simply don't get it. When you are on the receiving end of racism, then maybe you can try to extract racism from this argument. Until you are able to walk in the Others' shoes, you will never know. I have to laugh when some people tell me, "I've always thought of you as white." Is this because I have a central NY accent? Is white the norm or the meter stick by which everyone else should be measured? So when people who dismiss this argument, I should just drop it? I have never been called names or have been disrespected just because of my features and skin color? By dismissing race from the argument, you are dismissing my experience. You are dismissing the people who get pulled over for being black. You are dismissing the fact that people mistreating my parents for the way they look PLUS their accent. You are dismissing the systematic denial of indigenous people of their lands and their right to speak their own language and the list goes on...

    Complain about this comment

  • 176. At 01:42am on 16 Sep 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    Ref 133, Gilted

    "Everyone knew (apart from the lady prosecutor) that a majority Black jury would not find a Black man (OJ Simpson) guilty of murdering a White woman."

    The OJ Simpson trial was a travesty, but it is not emblematic of what has taken place in the USA throughout its history. Lynchings, murder and imprisonment of black people, particularly males, has been the norm since we became a Republic. Insinuating victimhood after a history of abuse is either a manifestation of a state of denial or symptomatic of our tendency to distort history to justify our past.

    Black people, and now Hispanics, have been subjected to discrimination and abuse for many years and although racism is no longer as pervasive as it was as recently as 5 or 6 decades ago, it is still a factor and it is one of several underlining reasons for the hatred that protesters have been showing in recent weeks. I do not remember demonstrations with people holding signs of a US President depicted as Hitler or preposterous accusations of supporting death panels, euthanasia, infanticide and other bizarre accusations. What I do remember is people holding signs calling for the end of specific wars and very lively debates when issues such as abortion or the establishment of MEDICARE were being discussed.

    I think it is important to remember that similar behavior was evident during the Clinton Administration and, obviously, race was not a factor then. As opposed to Democrats, who rolled over in fear when President Reagan was in office and during the first six years of W's reign, Republicans are not bashful about letting their views known and imposing them on the rest of the population, regardless of how we feel about it.

    Complain about this comment

  • 177. At 01:44am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    dispite what some claim above dissent is not the same as racism.
    you do not have to be racist to dissent .

    If it is OK to call a spade a spade then why not call a racist a racist?

    Complain about this comment

  • 178. At 01:46am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    173 No one would call you racist for calling a fool a fool.

    (well Isuspect the right would if it had been GW who was black)
    PS I have never heard one word of support for Mugabe.
    but I have heard praise of tutu.

    then there are those that slam tutu ,annan ,mandela,king and any other black until someone says"oi ain't that a bit racist" then they throw in a carter for good measure.

    Complain about this comment

  • 179. At 01:47am on 16 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    Nice try fluffy but you must understand no other religion teaches to kill the unbelievers.
    mine tells me to just walk away if no one listens. I truly do not feel like an infidel today, Maybe tomorrow. I believe Jesus Christ himself would ask them to cast the first stone. My time left might be short here but I am grateful. You know the other day president Obama celebrated some Muslims he thought deserved praise. But I am sure you are current so I won't go on. I must admit I am curious as to why he would further inflame the people of America in such a way.

    Complain about this comment

  • 180. At 01:53am on 16 Sep 2009, allen372 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 181. At 02:00am on 16 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    A pickle is just a pickle until it becomes a cucumber.

    Complain about this comment

  • 182. At 02:01am on 16 Sep 2009, DigitalJanitor wrote:

    Long time lurker here... I think race is currently being used to fan a certain (small? large? ??) segment of the political right, but they should realize by now that it can backfire very badly. In general, younger Americans don't find pointing out race nearly as inflammatory as 'the old white men' do. The GOP may win a battle but loose at least a generation's worth of influence if they continue to play their cards this crudely, and while I won't be sorry to see that stinky mess go to the grave, I'm not at all sure I like the idea of a political monoculture.

    But mostly I'm amazed that the right is suddenly repopulated with fiscal conservatives once we're talking about health care for Americans. There was ZERO ZIP NADA discussion of how we were going to pay for 2 wars, not to mention anything of the enormous human cost. In fact if one risked even bringing it up in about 2003, one could have been accused of being 'unpatriotic', 'unAmerican', or even 'not supporting our troops'.

    Katrina briefly popped the GOP intellectual dishonesty bubble, but unfortunately the lessons seem short-lived. My circle of family and friends have voted for some of the more rational Republican candidates in the past, but haven't recently and probably won't again until they can show a consistent return to sanity/credibility. Until then.... you get republicans screaming "you lie!", spinning anger (racist or otherwise) hoping it will help them out at the voting booth, etc. but not really presenting much in the way of substantial alternative solutions to very serious problems.

    Complain about this comment

  • 183. At 02:03am on 16 Sep 2009, AnonymousCalifornian wrote:

    GreySquirrel1867 (153):"Those genuine racists that are left are so few, and so marginalized, our own Justice Department has said they don’t matter. They are just a bunch of crackpots that no-one listens to anymore."

    I'll believe this when 'scientists' (invariably psychologists) stop publishing racist 'scientific' literature that is cited by other scientists, and which is viewed as sound science by laypeople who don't know any better.

    Complain about this comment

  • 184. At 02:11am on 16 Sep 2009, Sherpanzer wrote:

    Let's put it this way: if the racists aren't participating in this debate and doing everything they can to inject as much fear and emotion into the debate as they can, polarize each side and rip the democratic process apart, then where the hell are they? There is no doubt that some of those people you've seen arguing vehemently against Obama's plan are racist, but just because they are racist doesn't mean they're dumb or easily spotted.

    In the case of congressman Joe Wilson, however, it's sadly obvious just how much he knows he is right -- for anyone to talk over the president during a key address there must not be a doubt at all in his own mind about who holds the superior position! If it isn't racism, perhaps he shares the same deplorable arrogance and swagger of Kanye West -- or is Kanye racist too?

    Either way, I don't care -- they have both betrayed their personal biases in as disrespectful a manner as possible given the circumstances and therefore I refuse to listen to either of them any further. Hopefully the Dems throw that bum out and hopefully Kanye disappears for a couple years and truly sorts himself out.

    Complain about this comment

  • 185. At 02:13am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 186. At 02:14am on 16 Sep 2009, chronophobe wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 187. At 02:16am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    153 muckysquirrel.
    " America proved that when he was elected with such a large majority."

    Oh do get off that lie.
    Amerrica's vote was pretty close. that is why Obama has to tread carefully. because he is trying to help all sides.
    Personally I wish he's tell your side to go to where you'll end up.

    Complain about this comment

  • 188. At 02:16am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    181 or a gherkin

    Complain about this comment

  • 189. At 02:20am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    179ranting

    "but you must understand no other religion teaches to kill the unbelievers."

    excuse me?
    .

    "You know the other day president Obama celebrated some Muslims he thought deserved praise. But I am sure you are current so I won't go on. I must admit I am curious as to why he would further inflame the people of America in such a way."

    excuse me?

    Do explain further.


    Complain about this comment

  • 190. At 02:20am on 16 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    179. At 01:47am on 16 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    "You know the other day president Obama celebrated some Muslims he thought deserved praise. But I am sure you are current so I won't go on. I must admit I am curious as to why he would further inflame the people of America in such a way."

    Did G. W. Bush 'inflame Americans' when he did the same?

    The natural state of the vegetable, btw is a cucumber. It becomes a pickle only after soaking for a long time in vinegar.

    Complain about this comment

  • 191. At 02:21am on 16 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    When is enough, fair payment?
    When is the line even?
    Will there be a point in our time to say, we begin anew and all prior injustices are history and not a pressing issue for compensation.
    Truly if some feel then compensation is warranted then when is it enough?
    And if someone feels that way then there is no reasoning or equitable solution.
    Perhaps a more direct approach is to outright come and ask, How many feel they are still owed something for the many years of forced slavery?

    Complain about this comment

  • 192. At 02:27am on 16 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    182. At 02:01am on 16 Sep 2009, DigitalJanitor wrote:

    "Katrina briefly popped the GOP intellectual dishonesty bubble, but unfortunately the lessons seem short-lived."

    If you disperse a population very widely and so far away from their home that they cannot really combine to protest in greater numbers than handfuls, you can forget about bothering to learn a lesson, since the problem has been 'disappeared'.

    Or so it seems to me.

    Complain about this comment

  • 193. At 02:30am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    191 again more bull.
    This is not a historical event we are talking about. Blacks and other races are persecuted here today in the USA. they are shot dead in train stations and no one bats an eyelid.
    they are arrested , pulled over, imprisoned and sent to death row with no concern of most of the not effected white population.
    OK carry on. you dig your own grave.

    Complain about this comment

  • 194. At 02:31am on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    158;

    "DUDe"

    It figures. No surprise there.

    Complain about this comment

  • 195. At 02:43am on 16 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    164. fluffytale:

    138 charles
    " I am convinced that some of the current protesters who are, shall we say less than sensitive to the issue of race, would unquestioningly support a black Republican president, simply because he is a Republican."

    I would say they would vote for him/her IF the candidate promised to be tough on forners. and low on taxes. but would drop him like a lead balloon once they won if he didn't " keep his kind in their place"

    *********************
    "Keep his kind in his place"? What time period are you living in?

    Was there ever a Republican you did not see as racist? Is there a Republican that you don't despise?

    No.



    Complain about this comment

  • 196. At 02:47am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    194 wow
    Ranter still waiting for you to explain that comment before I take it at face value.
    just incase you see why I would want to excuse you.

    Complain about this comment

  • 197. At 02:50am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 198. At 02:50am on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Aside from health care, I don't see what the conservatives are griping about. Obama is even more aggressive at fighting Islamic terrorists in Afghanistan and now Somalia than Bush was. He just renewed the trade embargo on Cuba. He's leaving Iraq on about the same time table Bush would have. He's done nothing about Iran or North Korea but then neither did Bush. He's been bailing out big business the way Bush did. OTOH, I don't think Obama's political enemies in government, the press, or in the public at large are being any harder on him than others were on Clinton or Bush at this stage of the game in their presidencies. Before 9-11 there was a big row over embryonic stem cell research. The hearings surrounding Ashcroft's appointment to AG was very heated and stormy. The Republicans tried to set up Clinton for impeachment from the moment he took the oath of office. Gerry Falwell told Jeraldo Rivera he'd been working to get Clinton removed from office from the day he was elected governor of Arkansas. Seems like politics as usual in America to me. Race is plaing a very minor role in this. Of course anti American Brits and those on America's political left would like to make far more of it than there really is but then that's par for the course as well. If you want to know where Obama was treated disdainfully because of his race, get out newspaper clippings about his recent trip to Russia. And how would he fare as an ordinary citizen in Italy, France, or Spain where racism against dark skinned people is rampant and undisguised?

    Complain about this comment

  • 199. At 02:51am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 200. At 02:54am on 16 Sep 2009, chronophobe wrote:

    re: 175 IMAProgressive Is white the norm or the meter stick by which everyone else should be measured?

    Yes, yes! This is the nub of it -- 'white' is not a so much a 'race' as it is a myth of power. The tea party rhetoric is an expression of angst at the thought that this myth might, at long last, be crumbling.

    Think of it -- all the status, the economic benefits, the sense of power, that accrues to one on account of 'whiteness' -- all of this is challenged by the mere symbolism of a person of colour in the White House! White the meter stick no more.

    Now, add to this Obama's somewhat progressive agenda, and -- presto! -- mobs of angry white folk pining for the loss of their comfortable hierarchy ...

    Complain about this comment

  • 201. At 02:56am on 16 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    DigitalJanitor wrote:


    In general, younger Americans don't find pointing out race nearly as inflammatory as 'the old white men' do. The GOP may win a battle but loose at least a generation's worth of influence if they continue to play their cards this crudely, and while I won't be sorry to see that stinky mess go to the grave, I'm not at all sure I like the idea of a political monoculture.

    This is subtle?

    Complain about this comment

  • 202. At 02:57am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    195 You presume to answer for people.
    a presumption that is all yours.
    Yes there is one that seems to have a sense of duty to his country.
    and that would be the austrian.
    but apart from that I have heard little of those that I would call.Nice.
    that maybe because they behave like racist idiots.or because you fruit bats spend so much time making them look stupid.
    I don't know why you hate the republicans so much. you tell me.
    funny enough there are some republican supporters that I do like.
    but none of them voted for bush and were proud of it years later.

    if you are to write my replies than do give an indication of your part in it.


    Complain about this comment

  • 203. At 02:58am on 16 Sep 2009, MagicKirin wrote:

    Now thas the house has wasted our time and money on Wilson.

    Maybe they can debate the healthcare bill or began hearing on the criminal activities of ACORN.

    Complain about this comment

  • 204. At 02:59am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    Ah I feel a U number coming.

    This debate is being censured to the benifit of the racists.
    can non racist comments be made or do we have to only be racists on this blog.

    Complain about this comment

  • 205. At 03:03am on 16 Sep 2009, creativepuma06 wrote:

    It's always interesting to read another viewpoint from a non-American. As a young black American woman, I think that race does play a factor, but not completely--as I believe that there is a bigger issue. I hate to break it to some, but it just isn't the older, or 'rednecks'--there are some liberals and some that are 'highly educated' with PhDs that are also guilty of racism. I also think that it's ridiculous that on the front page of some American newspapers that Obama calling Kanye West a 'jackass' makes a headline! But then again, entertainment news always makes a headline over news that's going on with the rest of the world.

    Like race, Americans still has yet to come to grips with the reality that class also does play a part, as one of the posters pointed out. What people fail to realize is that we're very subtle about issues such as class, racism, and sexism. I've always felt that America is slowly becoming like a Latin American country--either you're rich or poor, and by poor, I mean working poor. There are many that still don't believe that the top 1% own most of the wealth along with the lobbyists and corporatists who really dictate the decisions. Look at the Hurricane Katrina victims, you don't hear anymore about that. And it's quite disturbing for the treatment of those people taking place in a developed nation. There's your answer right there about the so-called non-existent class and race issue.

    I get tired of being labeled as un-American or soft leftie when I point this out. Some carry the belief that 'all people in the lower class' are lazy and out to drain the rich. To me, that's lazy thinking in itself. I had a roommate who worked herself out of poverty into an ivy league school. These are the type of stories that get barely mentioned.

    Also for the people that say they're not pleased with that Obama has not done what he's promised to do--hello, he is a politician still and it's really naive to think that a politician will do what he/she says. At the same time, I really think it is unfair for people to say that they want him out of office at just only nine months! Do you really think that eight years can be cleaned up in a matter of nine months? It more than likely will take at least four presidents (or maybe never--I might just be cynical) to clean up this mess.

    As far as the 'socialism' and 'fascism' comments mostly coming from those on the far right, I feel that those get thrown out there as fuel because they know a great number of people don't have a clear concept of what it really means and they know that the public will happily eat it up. I might be wrong, but I feel that it's just a tactic to keep us from seeing the real issue and taking it out on the true culprits responsible for getting us in this mess. Big corporations run things in America. Even though I'm only 28, I feel that it probably wasn't always this way---but somehow the system became corrupt when the government allowed the corporations to have a say in some policies. Greed is a part of human nature and you can't force people to change, so what can you do?

    Although I do find Michael Moore to be over the top, I read an article on an indie film web site in which he says the "true believers of socialism are the Wall Street Executives."

    Complain about this comment

  • 206. At 03:08am on 16 Sep 2009, adeptblue wrote:

    This isn't about race. It's about education. Because if the people who are saying that Joe Wilson was defending the truth could read and had a little logic and just plain common sense, they would know that all bills being considered state explicitly that illegals shall NOT be covered. Not even we Democrats are stupid enough to try to slide that one by, but the Right is just dumb enough to buy that we are.

    The public education system has failed by producing masses people who can't read, can't do basic math without a calculator, and can't refrain from making the most obvious of mistakes in reasoning or presenting their opinion as fact. They gotta blame it all on somebody but themselves. Feh. Take responsibility for yourself folks. "Judge not lest ye be judged."

    Meanwhile, the health insurance companies and banks, not content with taking your fees, are on the taxroll now. So that's ok, but a public health OPTION isn't?

    Complain about this comment

  • 207. At 03:11am on 16 Sep 2009, Isaac wrote:

    "... if you push the American people too far with an over-reaching federal governemtn[sic] then they will fight back and die for their freedoms."

    You're totally right, who needs elections?

    You are all the same. Everyone who speaks of 'fighting back and taking arms against a tyrannical regime' are the same sort of undemocratic, violent, bad-losing madmen that are responsible for every civil war and failed state today.

    If you don't want America to become a failed state, resolve things electorally. To speak of anything outside the electoral process is what truly makes you Un-American.

    Complain about this comment

  • 208. At 03:13am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    AHH I see why posts are being removed now.
    it has something to do with a word.
    That word is a bag for tea that is used throughout the world in order to brew a quicker single cup of tea.
    I presume the objection and removal of posts for this word alone is some form of censorship.
    I can see no logical reason to remove a post for this reason.

    Ranter

    OK you won't answer. then let me tell you this.
    your comment was highly offensive and showed your racism.
    You say that no other religion says kill others ignoring the eye for eye and the biblical references to God taking out moses's enemies.
    the battles he made to gain a land and the present day battles based on that old war.(being oppressed is no excuse to oppress others )
    you then go on to say that by meeting muslims obama offended the people of america.


    His actions could really only offend americans that are racists.
    BTW why can't a muslim run the USA?

    Complain about this comment

  • 209. At 03:14am on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    MSNBC seems obsessed with the old news about Wilson's mis-demeanor while FOX is broadcasting around the clock revelations about Acorn. Fox has exclusives with the people who took it upon themselves to investigate and entrap Acorn. Fox News is claiming there will soon be a move in the Senate to cut off government funding for Acorn. If any of the allegations these people are making about Acorn are true, criminal proceedings against at least some Acorn employees may be a real possibility. They seem to aid and abet felons. We'll see. So far the other news agencies have distanced themselves from the story.

    Complain about this comment

  • 210. At 03:14am on 16 Sep 2009, publiusdetroiter wrote:

    U.S. taxpayer dollars have been going to a Federal Goverment health care system since 1965 when "The Social Security Act of 1965" was passed by Congress. Every well-informed, active elector should be aware of these socialist health care programs. Medicare and Medicaid. The elderly, disabled, and the poor receive their health care under these socialist programs at little or no cost to themselves. I would venture that there are people posting against the current health care reforms who are receiving, at least, some benefits from these socialist programs. Shall we discontinue these programs to stop the spread of socialism in our government programs? Are you prepared to pick-up the costs of your parents health care expenses? Or, perhaps if you are currently enrolled in either program, your own?

    Why has there not been the level of hysteria we have been witnessing to these socialized health care programs that we are now witnessing with current legislation for health care reform? Why are there no calls for ending these "socialist" health care programs? Should we not end all socialist programs to save our Republic? Have "We the People..." looked to see if the leader beating the drum for the step to which we are marching may have a political, or profit interest in keeping these programs providing services? Is that why we do not hear impassioned calls for the end to such socialism as Medicare and Medicaid? Or, is some forms of socialism better than others?

    Complain about this comment

  • 211. At 03:15am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    creative puma. you are not paranoid they are the "r word.
    I am sorry.

    Complain about this comment

  • 212. At 03:38am on 16 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    I suspected that no religious parties were going to receive exposure from the white house, and when I saw and heard that for the Ramadan Mr. Obama celebrated along with mentioning what Muslims had done for America as a separate institution and called the Muslims great, but said that others as well had been celebrated.

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    Government and religion have never gone well except in the dark ages and when convenient. But not much in more modern society. If the bible is not allowed to be cited in school, why in the white house. Any bible. I am not against the right to follow any religion. However not unlike some here who may feel slighted(myself included) about something I ask why break with the rule. I believe we are getting no closer to any resolution on any of the issues.

    Complain about this comment

  • 213. At 03:53am on 16 Sep 2009, allen372 wrote:

    wanting a small government is not racism, wanting lower taxes is not racism, this is absolutely disturbing - any criticism of obama is met with screams of racism, how disturbing that people will soon be afraid to be critical of the president and the government for fear of being accused of racism, mark mardell and other left wing commentators like him are doing their part well in making sure there is zero criticism of obama

    Complain about this comment

  • 214. At 04:00am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    212 ranter . you are having a go at GW faith based initiatives aren't you?
    Gw never used the white house for them did he?

    sorry but you are a complete hypocritical liar.
    I'm not so sure you taking Bin ladens side on the Koran is exactly helpful either. But the what the hell. who cares right.

    all them moderate islamist clerics that say there is no excuse for murder.(most)
    The lord resistance army they are christians. and they are pretty nasty. (oh most are black as well just to say I'm not a self hating white guy who's reverse racist(whatever the that means))

    No there was never any white priests that suggested war was OK . That killing the arabs that "want to kill us if we invade their land" I QUOTE PAT ROBERTSON is OK in fact we should attack them just because they say they will kill us if we invade.

    There is no eye for an eye in the bible.
    No other army could be looked at in the middle east that has taken a parcel of land by force(Ie killing). that have invaded all the territories around and persecuted millions.
    No chance of finding any country that fits that description then?


    but you say no other religion teaches killing.Pah!

    then you go on about Obama having muslims in the white house and how americans are to be offended when in fact he has christians in as well.
    then you say you are not a racist.
    Pah! again.

    why break with the rule.
    There was no rule that said the president has to be a diplomatic oaf .

    Complain about this comment

  • 215. At 04:02am on 16 Sep 2009, limeywriter wrote:

    It's amazing to me that mere opinion with little or no basis in reality slowly festers into "facts." A well-rounded journalist that holds any sincerity should be well above throwing any old nonsense into the public arena just to see how many flies settle on it. It's also very dangerous to make such nonsensical suggestions. Equally amazing to me are the posts here that fully concur with this preposterous notion that generally people who don't agree with Obama's healthcare proposals and show up in the public arena to voice their opinions are just a bunch of racists. No prejudice there. Oh that's right - it's merely suggested predudice; should be okay then. Of course once you've stated (and firmly believe) that your opponent is morally questionable, you don't have to take issue with him, do you. He's inferior to you. Not that that sort of thing could happen in politics (or journalism) today. Shame on me for suggesting it.

    Complain about this comment

  • 216. At 04:20am on 16 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    I will reply to you but I won't do so out of either anger or because you compel me to do so. I have no idea as to your motives or what the extent of your biblical knowledge is.
    My shortcut, And I am probably the least qualified to explain. I will make an attempt.
    When Jesus the son of man, which Muslims consider less than a prophet, came to earth he was God. Moses was during the absence of the son, Jesus had not yet come to earth in human form. The law was in the time of Moses.
    Therefore eye for an eye. After the son consolidated the rule of law by God, All power over man was given to him. A creator does whatever the creator wants just like the car makers make cars and give manuals for maintenance. The bible is our manual.
    Jesus then told man that a new commandment he was giving them for us, that we love each other as he did. So there is no eye for eye anymore. The land in Israel always belonged to the Jews and they have some of it back as promised by God. They however walked the earth for a long long time until the early fifties or 1948. What you are saying if you listen to yourself is in fact that you want to take back what you feel is yours now. I said that only recognizing Muslims strays from the governments rule to recognize one and not the other.there is a myriad of religions in America, and surely it is offensive to make a broad recognition of primarily Muslims. What about the rest of societies religions. Your anger is understandable. Both you and I know that what you propose can only happen if there is mutual respect and cooperation. Every logical fiber within you should be announcing to you that even if America USA were to succumb to internal subversion, it would trigger allied response not unlike what is going on in Afghanistan. Although I don't feel a reason for an apology for what I stated, Feel free to know Your comment to me was well received. I am not a completed christian, just a work in progress.
    Vrede Met Jou Suster.

    Complain about this comment

  • 217. At 04:50am on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    216
    I'd are crazy.
    quite evident in your post.
    ;)

    sorry but if you want to be taken seriously then you'll have to try to make some sense.
    and go back to school for comprehension.

    You have taken issue with Obama having a group of Muslims to visit.

    Again weasel words from the right. Complete utter fantasy comments . with no parable to them nothing just a mass of suggested lies.

    You are not a work in progress but a work in decay . it is obvious.
    If you call yourself Christian remember the wise men.
    Mary and Joseph sitting in the stable and up pop some wise guys from over there>
    Did they say. Oi no you can't come to dinner. Your not like me?


    Carry on writing. everyone who is not blatantly racist only has to look at your posts to know that racism is alive and well and just upgraded to a hemi.


    I don't want to see america go to war. that is the tea party chimps that keep saying that. they are the ones threatening to use guns.
    fortunately there are a hell of a lot more that respect the presidency and democracy.
    they will be the largest group.
    It just seems that you are unlikely to be with them.
    See I believe all people are basically good .
    As long as they don't just believe. but right now if there is a lie to be called out , it would be the biggest lie. and the last 8 years were the biggest lie.
    And I'd like to see Dick and GW on trail for it.

    tea people watch out. you are looking like the taliban.

    Complain about this comment

  • 218. At 04:51am on 16 Sep 2009, amrelceo wrote:

    The White Rightwing section of the Republican party has never been able to accept Mr. Obama because he is Black, more intelligent and educated than most of them and is able to communicate to the American people better than them. They can only get personal in their attacks and I trust their voting public will notice this.

    I agree with President Carter and Mark Mardell in their observation on this issue. I find it pathetic that the senior and experienced mambers of the party are not willing or able to get their hot headed mambers to get away from their anger at a Black man becoming the President and get on with the job of sorting out the mess that USA is in. The economy, health care, education need urgent attention thanks to the previous eight years of negligence and deliberate pampering of the rich.

    This senseless bickering will be far more important for the decline of USA than the development of other nations or ideologies.

    Complain about this comment

  • 219. At 04:57am on 16 Sep 2009, David Cunard wrote:

    #216. ranter22:"I am probably the least qualified to explain."

    Out of the mouth of babes . . .

    Complain about this comment

  • 220. At 08:48am on 16 Sep 2009, Morgan wrote:

    You know, not everyone opposed to Obama's plans are racist. I voted for McCain simply because I thought he was the better man for the job, not because I had any problem with Mr. Obama. It's really starting to bug me that my party is being characterized by those who are the most offensive (thus, most newsworthy). I do think Congressman Wilson should apologize, but only if he means it, there's no point otherwise. That being said, I'm well aware that there is still racism in my country, there very likely always will be to some extent, but the possibility of racism should not be used as a shield in regards to important policies that should be debated. There is no reason not to, I would be amazed if the man came up with a perfect plan entirely on his own. I'm simply worried that there is not enough healthy debate from either side on many critical matters because each party seems to be so filled with hate and anger towards the other.

    Complain about this comment

  • 221. At 08:54am on 16 Sep 2009, blogbag wrote:

    The critics are on the whole not racist. The fact is this guy has been given and easy ride by the media and the public and the first sign of doubt about his policies, principles and theories and it is all put down to racism by that numpty Carter (lets face it him time in office wasn't that good). Lazy and convenient argument put forward by inept liberals to cover up for the fact that BO isn't really much good. Gullible media such as the lefty BBC give time to this garbage. I have visited US lots of time and each time I a struck but how non WASPs were unpleasant towards me and how helpful the WASPs were to me, particularly on a couple ot trips when I, a white Scottish male, was accompanied by a black female girlfriend and one trip was even to North Carolina. This said a lot to me about the USA.

    Complain about this comment

  • 222. At 09:17am on 16 Sep 2009, MostonHead wrote:

    What the US of A racist???? surely not, the country which has in the last 50 years recognised black rights? or the country that has many black men in jail unproportionately? well then again do you think that the English would be any different if an Asian became pime minister, but i dont think England is anywhere near that level of equality, never mind talking about how racists the US is, how racist is the UK which sends a Fascist to represent them in Europe. Obama managed to get to voted in that is far more than the UK would achieve in the next 50 years, racism is everywhere in the west, but the US is less racist than the UK.

    Complain about this comment

  • 223. At 10:07am on 16 Sep 2009, copperDolomite wrote:

    Well of course it is racism, but there is a lot more to it than that! Where were all the African Americans protesting against healthcare reform? Where are the African Americans in Government, banking, science, medicine, business boardrooms?

    He's not white. That isn't so good. He is educated, highly educated. Well, in America, that can often be a problem too. Look at the rise of Palin!

    Racism is reducing, slowly. But not deeply enough, and not across the board. Ask yourself this? If an American muslim decided to run for office, the highest office, what chance would he have? If choosing a minority running would cause no harm to a GOP candidate, then why on earth did Palin look like the best of the bunch for Vice President?

    A frighteningly high proportion of Americans believe, literally in the Bible. Read the bible. Believers are told they are the special ones, and are guided on how to treat slaves!

    Add to the soup the hysterical claims about Obama not being American, that he is a Muslim, and all the rest of the lies, misinformation, manipulation of a poorly educated population (proud to be so too if you listen to people like Palin), desperate attempts to re-interpret the American Constitution in terms of religion and what you won't get is a rational, considered debate.

    You get what the Americans have and are. Their democracy is broken.

    I don't for a minute think that the UK could do much better either - our democracy is falling apart too.

    Complain about this comment

  • 224. At 10:08am on 16 Sep 2009, wanderingangus wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 225. At 10:21am on 16 Sep 2009, powermeerkat wrote:

    Of course race is all mportant.

    If Obama hadn't won a race, he wouldn't have been sitting in the White House right now saving us from our sordid selves.

    Complain about this comment

  • 226. At 10:32am on 16 Sep 2009, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #218

    You Mardell and Jimmy Carter are wrong. The opposition isn't objecting to Obama's policies because he is black it is because they don't agree and Obama has many mistakes since coming to office.

    Tax cheats and extremists in Canda
    The apology tour
    Attacking one of our best allies: Israel
    Supporting Card check

    BTW when it comes to bigotry, Jimmy Carter has a history of it.

    Complain about this comment

  • 227. At 10:37am on 16 Sep 2009, powermeerkat wrote:

    At 8:59pm on 15 Sep 2009, alanNJ wrote:

    I don't support Obama because he's 100% liberal; NOT because he's 50% black.



    A very non-PC comment, alan; very non-PC

    [and I don't mean 'personal computer']


    You should have supported him 50%. You know, the PC 50%.

    I have supported him 50% plus, because I believed it was TIME FOR CHANGE.


    9 months later all change I can spare is those 2 cents.

    The rest IRS have taken to prop-up SS [for our British cousins: Social Security], Medicare, Medicaid and other huge government-operated social programs. [which are still close to insolvency despite that]

    No, it wasn't merely a tithe.

    So I ask left-wing Democrats, who persistently quote Bible here:

    What would Jesus say?

    Complain about this comment

  • 228. At 10:48am on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    209. At 03:14am on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    MSNBC seems obsessed with the old news about Wilson's mis-demeanor while FOX is broadcasting around the clock revelations about Acorn. Fox has exclusives with the people who took it upon themselves to investigate and entrap Acorn. Fox News is claiming there will soon be a move in the Senate to cut off government funding for Acorn. If any of the allegations these people are making about Acorn are true, criminal proceedings against at least some Acorn employees may be a real possibility."


    Yes the problem you have is that no one is interested in the endless racially inspired accusations (not proof) about Acorn.

    But the rascism behind the type of abuse Obama is recieving is beyond dispute.

    Complain about this comment

  • 229. At 10:52am on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    110. At 11:18pm on 15 Sep 2009, StephenKenney wrote:
    As an American living here in the UK (with a brother in DC who participated in the demonstration Saturday on behalf of our extended family) I can tell you that regarding your question:

    "The allegation is that many of those who are calling their president "un-American" mean he is not white. Democratic propaganda, over-sensitivity or truth?"

    My answer is - Democratic propaganda. It is clear that the rhetoric being used in the media is designed to change the basis of the debate to improve the odds of success of the Democratic Party initiative on 'universal healthcare".

    When I describe the President's behavior with respect to this issue as un-American, it reflects my view that the President is not acting in accordance with our constitution or respecting the fundamental position that powers not explicitly provided to the Federal Government in the constitution reside with the States. The President's attempt to secure this power for the Federal Government without following the due process of constitutional amendment is un-American."


    I think you will find the Constitution is not concerned with Healthcare. And no one has seriously suggested the Founding Fathers were preoccupied with medical insurance.

    Complain about this comment

  • 230. At 10:59am on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    151. At 00:57am on 16 Sep 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
    Crying racism is the last refuge of a scoundral. This tatics has been used by Obama supporters during the campaign and his presidency. This is the same tatic used by supporters of Jessie Jackson, Louis Farakhan and Al Sharpeton

    Note I am refering to the supporters not Obama"


    This from someone who beleives any criticism of Israel (jewish Israelis only of course), for anything whatsoever is anti-semetic.

    And from someone who has issues with native Americans, blacks etc.



    Complain about this comment

  • 231. At 11:20am on 16 Sep 2009, powermeerkat wrote:

    Hillary Clinton's health care reform plan has not been criticised and rejected becasue she is white. Or a woman.


    BTW in the Bush's 'fascist' Administration National Securty Advisor, Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff and Secretary of State were all people of different race and color than the current ones.

    And you say that race doesn't matter? ;-)

    Complain about this comment

  • 232. At 11:45am on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    222. At 09:17am on 16 Sep 2009, MostonHead wrote:
    What the US of A racist???? surely not, the country which has in the last 50 years recognised black rights? or the country that has many black men in jail unproportionately? well then again do you think that the English would be any different if an Asian became pime minister, but i dont think England is anywhere near that level of equality, never mind talking about how racists the US is, how racist is the UK which sends a Fascist to represent them in Europe. Obama managed to get to voted in that is far more than the UK would achieve in the next 50 years, racism is everywhere in the west, but the US is less racist than the UK."



    Apart from being untrue - the UK is far more miscengenistc than the US (The startled response of some in the US when they saw blacks and whites playing in UK rock bands is just one example) it is beside the issue. Obama is not president of the UK.

    Complain about this comment

  • 233. At 11:48am on 16 Sep 2009, powermeerkat wrote:

    Mark. In thre years time you may well open a debate asking
    "Is Obama a factor in the race?"


    BTW. The whole issue health care reform ('socialist' or not) is going
    to be resolved not by pres. Obama, but by the U.S. CONGRESS, which, alone, has a power to write a legislaton (and pass it or not) and allocate (or not) money for any government-run or controlled program.

    The current Congress is a Democratic one, since Democrats have solid majorites in both, House of Representatives and Senate.

    They should be esily able to enact health insurance reform by themselves, overcoming any objections of the Republican minorities.

    So if the current "tax&spend" Congress (by no means the 1st one of that kind) is going to comes up with a 'lemon' or nothing at all, everybody and their grandmother will know whom to blame.

    P.S. Still no reply to my repeated request for comments about reports that a well-known congresswoman(a Democrat from California) co-owns (with her husband) a golf club which hasn't admitted blacks.

    WHY?!

    Complain about this comment

  • 234. At 11:57am on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    203. At 02:58am on 16 Sep 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
    Now thas the house has wasted our time and money on Wilson.

    Maybe they can debate the healthcare bill or began hearing on the criminal activities of ACORN."


    Better prove them first. Oh that's right ACORN works a lot with black people - nough said, no proof needed.

    Complain about this comment

  • 235. At 12:14pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    "Is race a factor in Obama protests?

    Some people have an embarrassing crazy old uncle they'd prefer to keep well hidden away. Jimmy (Who?) Carter is America's crazy old uncle. From BBC;

    "Former US President Jimmy Carter says much of the vitriol against President Barack Obama's health reforms and spending plans is "based on racism"."

    This is a case of; If you don't like the message and can't attack it, shoot the messenger. In this case the messenger is a large number of American voters and taxpayers. The message to Congress is loud and clear; "Kill this bill or else face the wrath of the voters at the polls in the next election."

    Was it racism when the same ideas were rejected during the Clinton Administration? Often the road to hell is paved with good intentions. It was good intentions that eased credit to the point where anyone could buy a house in America even if they had no hope of ever paying for it. That little Robin Hood ultimately bankrupted the entire world. People say they want democracy until the majority opposes their ideas. Then they find reasons to crucify the majority revealing they are in fact little tyrants. Opposing government funded universal health care isn't racism. It is characterizing it as racist because the President who currently favors it is part African American is what is really racist and tyrannical. Not at all surprising to me coming from the muddle brained American left. They still haven't apologized for the grossly inaccurate characterization of the USSR and Communism. Thank goodness for President Reagan or we'd still be fighting the cold war. The current finances of the US government is a disaster. Government funded universal health care would only make it even worse. There isn't one example of such a system around the world that has worked. The notion of "tort reform" is a code phrase for legalizing medical malpractice. It would violate one of Americans' most basic rights, the right to sue for damages when you are injured by the incompetence of others.

    Complain about this comment

  • 236. At 12:16pm on 16 Sep 2009, Papakuratab wrote:

    Democratic propaganda, over-sensitivity or truth? Truth, truth, truth; like the other great 'unspeakable'about America (Israel) it's impossible to stick your head over the parapet for one second without 'You lie'. America is shoulder-deep in prejudice (anti-black, anti-Islamic, anti-European, and don't forget the Russians): Obama's election didn't heal the wounds; it just took the bandages off.

    Complain about this comment

  • 237. At 12:29pm on 16 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    222. At 09:17am on 16 Sep 2009, MostonHead

    I guessed that sooner or later we would read the fallacious argument that "there is more racism somewhere else, therefore you can't criticise us."

    But I would like to remind US readers that Britain needed to pass no law only forty years ago to ensure citizens who were not white could vote freely; nor was any law required to be passed to compel schools or universities to admit them.

    We might not have elected a Black, Caribbean, Asian or Chinese Prime Minister, but we have elected MP's with all those backgrounds. But the proportion of the population of African or Afro- Caribbean family origin is actually much smaller in Britain than it is in the USA, which may have something to do with it.

    In fact, it is quite likely that a young black MP and junior minister, very well thought of, liked, and generally respected, will become Leader of the Labour Party, and perhaps subsequently Prime Minister, within the next 8 years or so.

    Complain about this comment

  • 238. At 12:39pm on 16 Sep 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    Ref 222, Moston

    "...do you think that the English would be any different if an Asian became pime minister, but i dont think England is anywhere near that level of equality, never mind talking about how racists the US is..."

    The difference is that minorities (Blacks and Hispanics) constitute over 40% of the population of the USA, and less than 2% in the UK and other European countries.

    Complain about this comment

  • 239. At 12:40pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    223. At 10:07am on 16 Sep 2009, copperDolomite wrote:


    "You get what the Americans have and are. Their democracy is broken.

    I don't for a minute think that the UK could do much better either - our democracy is falling apart too."

    US democrcy has been broken for a long time. Fewer and fewer people bother to vote, the members of Congress and the Senate practically sit for life and gerrymandering is legal - making a mockery of the whole idea.

    And that is before you get to politicising the Court system.

    The UK has its problems but its politcal system is more fluid and flexible than that of the US.


    Complain about this comment

  • 240. At 12:49pm on 16 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    Just a word of advice generally.

    It appears that declining (in the grammatical sense) the verb derived from the mainstay of British life, the tea bag, leads to posts being declined . . .

    It is not, as should be very evident from some posts here, any individual word that may be offensive to some, but its context.

    An example of which, I have, not being American, very belatedly realised, is the frequent references by a handful of people who post here to ACORN. I was not aware until today that apparently the majority of people who work for it are black. Which tells me, at least. something about those who keep bringing it up on every thread in this blog.

    Complain about this comment

  • 241. At 1:05pm on 16 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    223 copperDolomite

    I have to admit being somewhat at a loss now as to which is supposed to be the greater offence. Being clever when black, or stupid when white?

    The consensus (measuring by volume, in both meanings of the word) appears to be the former. . .

    Complain about this comment

  • 242. At 1:22pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 243. At 1:35pm on 16 Sep 2009, MagicKirin wrote:

    Simon21 wrote:
    151. At 00:57am on 16 Sep 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
    Crying racism is the last refuge of a scoundral. This tatics has been used by Obama supporters during the campaign and his presidency. This is the same tatic used by supporters of Jessie Jackson, Louis Farakhan and Al Sharpeton

    Note I am refering to the supporters not Obama"


    This from someone who beleives any criticism of Israel (jewish Israelis only of course), for anything whatsoever is anti-semetic.

    And from someone who has issues with native Americans, blacks etc.



    Simon is following Carter's example calling anyone who disagrees a racist.
    By his theory is you oppose a racists like Wright or Jackson you have a problem with blacks. It does not matter if you praise Rice, Powell, Thomas and Oprah.

    Complain about this comment

  • 244. At 1:38pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    I don't hear much about racism in Britain. Now why do you suppose that so many Moslems born in Britain feel that they are Pakistanis, are committed to Islamic jihad, and feel no affinity at all towards the UK or Britain as a society or culture? This is one more case of BBC telling lies about America when Britain's own glass house has had a million holes blown in by bricks thrown by its own citizens. Christian Amanpour of CNN did an excellent one hour documentary about racism and alienation of Moslems in the UK and you can find it and view it in its entirety on the web. You will find comparable alienated groups in most or all other European countries but you don't find them in the United States. For all the ranting about racism in America, it is insignificant compared to most other countries. Why? Our country is simply better than theirs, a fact that Americans are loathe to brag about and foreigners will not admit. But the election of President Obama is proof positive that it is true and it is only one of countless examples.

    Complain about this comment

  • 245. At 1:39pm on 16 Sep 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    Ref 226, Magic

    "The opposition isn't objecting to Obama's policies because he is black it is because they don't agree and Obama has many mistakes since coming to office."

    Would you mind explaining the rationale for objecting to President Obama delivering a speech to school children to motivate them to stay in school, work hard and pursue their dreams? While you are at it, would you mind explaining why similar speeches by Presidents Reagan and Bush were acceptable, but Obama's was considered indoctrination?

    I don't believe racism is the main reason - or even a major reason - for the opposition to healthcare reform, but it is definitely a factor among the most radical elements of the far right in what is beginning to look like a deliberate strategy to undermine his agenda, derail his presidency, and deny 53% of the American electorate their wishes.

    Complain about this comment

  • 246. At 1:41pm on 16 Sep 2009, ToothbrushMan wrote:

    222. MostonHead

    You're knowledge of the UK is derisory. You even confuse the
    English and UK in the same sentence !

    F.Y.I. we've already had a woman prime minister, and the idea
    that people wouldn't vote into power a Black or Asian or whatever
    is laughable. Race really isn't an issue here as it is in the US.

    That the US has problems with racism is a pretty much undisputed
    fact - not that the US is "racist" as such - but that the US is
    so wrapped up on the topic of racism.

    But your comments exhibit an ignorance of the UK that beggars
    belief.

    So who is this "racist" that we sent to Europe ? I haven't the
    faintest idea who you're talking about. And if he has been voted
    into power - then it would be undemocratic if he were prevented.


    Complain about this comment

  • 247. At 1:45pm on 16 Sep 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    Ref 218, amrelceo

    "They can only get personal in their attacks and I trust their voting public will notice this."

    The attacks directed at President Obama are mild in comparison to what President Clinton endured. One of the most dramatic differences between Republicans and Democrats is that the former don't roll over when they are the minority party. As opposed to the timidity and outright fear shown by Dems during the Reagan and Bush administrations, the GOP is alive and well and willing to put up a fight and, if possible, undermine the ability of incumbent Democrats to the point they can not govern. The Dems should take notes and learn how the dirty game of politics is played or they will not be in power much longer...

    Complain about this comment

  • 248. At 1:45pm on 16 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    228. Simon21: "Yes the problem you have is that no one is interested in the endless racially inspired accusations (not proof) about Acorn."

    ***************
    Uh, Simon, have you seen the videos? Probably not because they're only being shown on FoxNews and/or you refuse to engage.

    Take a look at them. They're proof.

    Complain about this comment

  • 249. At 1:50pm on 16 Sep 2009, stephen wrote:

    I am amazed at the number of bloggers who believe that there is know racial motivation behind both the protests and the congressmans outburst. the reality of the situation is that the struggle for equal rights in the US and wider world is ongoing. While the actual issue of health care funding deserves debate im baffled at the level of vitriol pointed at president Obama (as a fan of the NHS im baffled at the protests but we arent speaking about that). Protest of course, thats your right but it seems many have jumped on the issue and its no longer just about health care.

    I dont think anyone can deny their still is deep rooted racism in the US and specifically in the southern states. AND nobody likes change

    Sorry cant help but talk about health care, how can the richest nation in the world be so anti looking after people...
    ... isnt that what should be happening

    Complain about this comment

  • 250. At 1:56pm on 16 Sep 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    Ref 205, Creativepuma

    "As far as the 'socialism' and 'fascism' comments mostly coming from those on the far right, I feel that those get thrown out there as fuel because they know a great number of people don't have a clear concept of what it really means and they know that the public will happily eat it up. I might be wrong..."

    I don't think you are wrong. I believe comparing President Obama to Hitler, warning Americans that his programs will transform the USA into a socialist nation similar to Russia, distorting his efforts with claims of death panels, euthanasia, infanticide, and insisting that the proposed healthcare reform will help illegal immigrants are part of a cohesive strategy designed to undermine the president's ability to govern, damage his credibility, and reduce his chances of being re-elected.

    At the risk of sounding naive, I honestly believe that race is not the main factor and that politics, ideology, greed, and egotism are the main reasons for the uproar we hear from the right. The same happened when President Clinton was in office and, clearly, race was not a factor then.

    Complain about this comment

  • 251. At 2:00pm on 16 Sep 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    Ref 231, Power

    "BTW in the Bush's 'fascist' Administration National Securty Advisor, Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff and Secretary of State were all people of different race and color than the current ones."

    There is no evidence that President Bush or his family are racist. In fact, his record suggests the opposite. The question is, how many far right members of the GOP supported his decision to appoint minorities to high level positions?

    Complain about this comment

  • 252. At 2:06pm on 16 Sep 2009, stephen wrote:

    ...Still going through all the comments (A-mazing by the way mark real cat amongst the pigeons)

    Some comments yesterday refering to Mr Obama being of mixed race. Yes this is true however i think you will find that you are either white or not. it doesnt really matter how much of you is black.

    anyway gotta try and finish all the comments, theres lots i dont agrea with but as i dont no everything its always good to read

    Complain about this comment

  • 253. At 2:12pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    235. At 12:14pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    "Is race a factor in Obama protests?

    Some people have an embarrassing crazy old uncle they'd prefer to keep well hidden away. Jimmy (Who?) Carter is America's crazy old uncle. From BBC;

    "Former US President Jimmy Carter says much of the vitriol against President Barack Obama's health reforms and spending plans is "based on racism"."

    This is a case of; If you don't like the message and can't attack it, shoot the messenger."



    No its a case of don't think that others do not see through the false outrage.


    " In this case the messenger is a large number of American voters and taxpayers."

    o
    Large numbers of whose fathers etc hated the idea of black people voting and presuming to sit near white people.



    "The message to Congress is loud and clear; "Kill this bill or else face the wrath of the voters at the polls in the next election."


    Hmmm some voters and the message is clearer - "don't be uppitty and tell white folks what to do - now give us a song and a joke"



    "Was it racism when the same ideas were rejected during the Clinton Administration?"


    Yes since he same ideas were no rejected and not in the same way. Putting on a suit over the KKK,AWB, etc robes fools no one.

    " People say they want democracy until the majority opposes their ideas. Then they find reasons to crucify the majority revealing they are in fact little tyrants. Opposing government funded universal health care isn't racism."


    That depends on how it is opposed isn't it? And who is doing the opposing. As GO said, one way to guage the quality of an argument is lok at the quality of those proposing it.


    "It is characterizing it as racist because the President who currently favors it is part African American is what is really racist and tyrannical."

    Oh part African American - whic part? What a relief he isn't all African American?


    "Not at all surprising to me coming from the muddle brained American left. They still haven't apologized for the grossly inaccurate characterization of the USSR and Communism."


    And we know your views about people of colour (part coloured or full).


    " Thank goodness for President Reagan or we'd still be fighting the cold war. The current finances of the US government is a disaster. Government funded universal health care would only make it even worse. There isn't one example of such a system around the world that has worked."


    Except in the UK etc where they live longer than Americans.


    " The notion of "tort reform" is a code phrase for legalizing medical malpractice. It would violate one of Americans' most basic rights, the right to sue for damages when you are injured by the incompetence of others."

    This is one of Ameirca's basic rights? The right to destroy your medical system. How is Pediatrics in the US these days - oh dear :-(.

    Usual half digested right wing guff.

    But hooray for your comments on Reagan. I will take old people off your list. That is progress

    Complain about this comment

  • 254. At 2:12pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    "Obama is not president of the UK."

    The UK doesn't have a President. That's part of its problem. It's parliamentary system doesn't even remotely resemble a real democracy. Not when the government can simply sign away the nation's sovereignty to a supranational government in Brussels without a hint of a national debate let alone informed consent. All you hear are occasional mewlish grumbles from a few. If this issue of nationalized health care came up in the UK, the ruling party would simply vote it into law and the public could go to hell if they didn't like it. Does it frighten some people to see Americans exercising their guaranteed Constitutional right of peacful freedom of assembly to petition their government not to enact what they see as dangerously flawed legislation? I'm not surprised. Democracy is a messy business. Tyranny is neat and clean. This is how we defeated the Kennedy McCain give away the country to illegal aliens bill. We will defeat this one and the next and the next until the government comes up with a plan that makes sense to most Americans, a plan that is fair, will work, and that is affordable and not before. Taunts of accusations of racism against thinking Americans will not make one shred of difference. Not by the tax and spend liberal left in the US and not by foreigners whom we always turn a deaf ear to. Britain heal thyself. When you have something useful to contribut, maybe we'll listen to it but not before. What we don't want is a clone of your NHS. Not now, not ever.

    Complain about this comment

  • 255. At 2:16pm on 16 Sep 2009, justcommonfolk wrote:

    How can this be racial? Obama is BI-RACIAL, doesn't any one remember that his mother was WHITE? Don't you remember his speach where he threw
    his WHITE grandmother under the bus? No matter how you look at it he is still not the first black president, since he is still half white. Only his skin is darker than most whites. Further more he will always be half white.

    Complain about this comment

  • 256. At 2:16pm on 16 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    239. Simon21: "The UK has its problems but its politcal system is more fluid and flexible than that of the US."

    ********************
    It's a fraction of the US' size.

    Complain about this comment

  • 257. At 2:18pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    233. At 11:48am on 16 Sep 2009, powermeerkat wrote:
    Mark. In thre years time you may well open a debate asking
    "Is Obama a factor in the race?"


    BTW. The whole issue health care reform ('socialist' or not) is going
    to be resolved not by pres. Obama, but by the U.S. CONGRESS, which, alone, has a power to write a legislaton (and pass it or not) and allocate (or not) money for any government-run or controlled program."


    Just found out how the US government works? Well done!

    "The current Congress is a Democratic one, since Democrats have solid majorites in both, House of Representatives and Senate.

    They should be esily able to enact health insurance reform by themselves, overcoming any objections of the Republican minorities."


    Yes they will and Obama will promote it as a victory.

    "So if the current "tax&spend" Congress (by no means the 1st one of that kind) is going to comes up with a 'lemon' or nothing at all, everybody and their grandmother will know whom to blame."

    Irrelevant. Obama will claim the history books as being the president who won against entrenched interests. That will galvanise his base.

    "P.S. Still no reply to my repeated request for comments about reports that a well-known congresswoman(a Democrat from California) co-owns (with her husband) a golf club which hasn't admitted blacks.

    WHY?!"


    Oh so some US golf clubs still refuse to admit black members. I thought you were of the opinion US rascism does not exist!

    What an own goal. Do tell us about other such US insitutions.

    Complain about this comment

  • 258. At 2:27pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    242. At 1:22pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    Simple Simian

    I am not black as it happens Marcus, why do you think so?


    "Why, because you say so?"

    Take the above comment - game set match

    "My taxes pay for enough of other people's problems already. I don't want to pay any more out for it."

    Who cares? You live in a society with other people (even Black ones) tough, get used to it.


    "The problem is not about black or white it's about green. When President Obama demonstrates that he can make the economy strong enough to support his ideas about health care, then they can be discussed calmly and rationally but not now. Not when our economy is flat on its back or haven't you noticed?"

    Oh so you admit his ideas are not being discussed rationally and calmly thanks for that.


    Complain about this comment

  • 259. At 2:28pm on 16 Sep 2009, bethpa wrote:

    Obama represents a cluster of values that the right wing in America opposes. Being part black is just a part of that cluster.

    If Obama espoused a right wing ideology the right wing extremists would support him although probably lack respect for him and think of him as being their "boy"

    For some people America is defined as being white and Christian...end of story

    Those right wing Christians have alienated the Hispanic community from the Republicans. Hispanics might have become more conservative and joined the Republican party but have been angered by the Republican extremists who oppose all things non white.

    (America is a very complicated and diverse nation...far more diverse than is seen on tv or in the main stream media. And it is exactly that diversity that is America's strength imo)

    Complain about this comment

  • 260. At 2:35pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    244. At 1:38pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    I don't hear much about racism in Britain."


    Well we don't call black people Simians

    " Now why do you suppose that so many Moslems born in Britain feel that they are Pakistanis, are committed to Islamic jihad, and feel no affinity at all towards the UK or Britain as a society or culture? This is one more case of BBC telling lies about America when Britain's own glass house has had a million holes blown in by bricks thrown by its own citizens."


    So you admit the US is rascist? Oh dear we didn't get that admission earlier?


    "Christian Amanpour of CNN did an excellent one hour documentary about racism and alienation of Moslems in the UK and you can find it and view it in its entirety on the web. You will find comparable alienated groups in most or all other European countries but you don't find them in the United States."


    Really. So the US black population does not find itself alienated?

    Wow let the bells ring out. Not what they say of course, but hey they are black so do not listen to them.

    " For all the ranting about racism in America, it is insignificant compared to most other countries. Why? Our country is simply better than theirs, a fact that Americans are loathe to brag about and foreigners will not admit. But the election of President Obama is proof positive that it is true and it is only one of countless examples."


    And lynching etc is not something to brag about.

    Complain about this comment

  • 261. At 2:36pm on 16 Sep 2009, MagicKirin wrote:

    saintDominick wrote:
    Ref 226, Magic

    "The opposition isn't objecting to Obama's policies because he is black it is because they don't agree and Obama has many mistakes since coming to office."

    Would you mind explaining the rationale for objecting to President Obama delivering a speech to school children to motivate them to stay in school, work hard and pursue their dreams? While you are at it, would you mind explaining why similar speeches by Presidents Reagan and Bush were acceptable, but Obama's was considered indoctrination?

    (They objected because of the low leval person who put in the agenda: Right How you can help President Obama essay if that had not put in no firestorm)

    I don't believe racism is the main reason - or even a major reason - for the opposition to healthcare reform, but it is definitely a factor among the most radical elements of the far right in what is beginning to look like a deliberate strategy to undermine his agenda, derail his presidency, and deny 53% of the American electorate their wishes.

    (So 47% of us are supposed to accept what we disagrre with? Did opponents of Bush on the liberation of Iraq attempt to reform Social Secuirty and Barbara Lee was never forced to apologize for her comments regarding Bush)

    Complain about this comment

  • 262. At 2:41pm on 16 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    Mark asked for 'debate', but this thread seems to becoming the province of those who appear to follow the first couple of Glenn Beck's 9/12 Project's 'Principles' and we are expected to derive the conclusion there is no racism in the USA therefrom.

    (The first 'principle', for those who could not bear to look at the source from which some posters here derive their information, is "America is Good!" Though I suspect he does not include either Canada or south America in his idea of 'America'. . .)



    Complain about this comment

  • 263. At 2:42pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    243. At 1:35pm on 16 Sep 2009, MagicKirin wrote:

    "Simon is following Carter's example calling anyone who disagrees a racist.
    By his theory is you oppose a racists like Wright or Jackson you have a problem with blacks. It does not matter if you praise Rice, Powell, Thomas and Oprah."

    I notice you don't deny the facts.

    Listening to a lecture on race from you is like being given a class in democracy by Mao Zedong.

    Carter, was speaking very clearly suggest you read what he actually said. I don't recall him saying anything about Oprah's fans.

    But we all know your problem with Carter, he dared to criticise the earthly paradise that is Israel. ANd for you that puts him in the same category as Mother Theresa, Archbishop Tutu, etc - beyond the pale.

    Of course critising other countries is OK, just steer clear of the ME nirvana. Its inhabitants (only some of them) are incapable of wrong.

    What a dogmatic and ridiculous way of seeing the world.


    Complain about this comment

  • 264. At 2:43pm on 16 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    251. saintDominick: "There is no evidence that President Bush or his family are racist. In fact, his record suggests the opposite. The question is, how many far right members of the GOP supported his decision to appoint minorities to high level positions?"

    *****************

    Good question. Hard to really know. There were many Blacks who despised Condi Rice for working for Bush. It went in reverse, too.

    Complain about this comment

  • 265. At 2:52pm on 16 Sep 2009, bethpa wrote:

    #262 Squirrelist

    There is no debate in the US anymore...its gone. You are either firm in your beliefs or ignoring all this...

    Complain about this comment

  • 266. At 2:56pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Oh sainted one;

    "Would you mind explaining the rationale for objecting to President Obama delivering a speech to school children to motivate them to stay in school, work hard and pursue their dreams?"

    The rationale would be entirely clear if you told the whole truth instead of just part of it. Originally President Obama's "curriculum" called for the students to write an essay on how they could help him. This was outrageous. Children are in no position to make judgements about whether or not the President's policies are good or bad for the country or for themselves. They are in school to learn, not to engage in partisan politics as participants. It was imbecillic when BBC WHYS ran on for months about how children should participate in politics but it is pure cynicism for the President of the United States to try to enlist them in helping him puruse his own political agenda. After the public outrage over it, it was deleted. It's one more example of why someone whose resume, what you Euros call a CV only includes being a "community organizer" and an editor of a law journal has questionable qualifications for the responsibility of being President of the United States.

    Whether foreigners know it or not, President Obama is stepping on one political land mine after another. Now he will have to explain how his plan for socialized medicine does not cut into Medicare benefits and will not raise taxes on the lowest 95% of incomes as he promised. A lot of people who are on Medicare are very worried about this plan and they include Democrats who supported his candidacy and voted for him. I wonder if they had to do it again if they would pull the same levers in the voting booths today. We'll find out in about 3 years but we may get an indication of it next year in the mid-term elections (we don't have bi-elections in the United States.)

    Complain about this comment

  • 267. At 2:58pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    220 nicely put post.
    Those of us on the left might argue that to fix this problem you have to go to your house and sort them out.

    There is a lot of racism involved here and the GOP ,even if not racists them selves are willing to use the effects of racism to make gains.
    In the same manner Hillery clinton did in the primaries.
    Have no fear , personally I blame Hillery for allowing the racists a voice . For encouraging them. Of course the zeal with which Palin picked the torch and ran was unbelievable.
    Desperate people do desperate things.


    But the fact that the party has not firmly stated "enough" .

    Democrats went against the wishes of the left and joined in in ordering two wars.
    They Gave GW a chance.
    He messed it up by refusing to ask for more troops after the invasion.
    Ignoring the wishes and advice of the allies it had.

    HE messed up with Gitmo it caused more hatred and was a poster for AQ.
    He MESSED UP.

    4 years they went along with little GW plans.
    8 years of listening to the same old lies.
    The obstruction of Justice .
    the ignoring of military recommendations.
    Donny rummy and his battles with the generals . sacking them if they didn't agree with the Don/dick plan.

    That is why the dems have good reason to be angry at the GOP but not the other way around.
    Those wars, stretching the american military to breaking point ( and IRAN that so many seem to hate (not racist though just "nationalistic") seems to have noticed;).

    Yet here when the president tries to get consensus, listens to the other side and tries to include their ideas he gets slammed with all this rubbish.

    Then they would have us believe that none of the racists that were there at the elections with their "nobama" " he's a muslim" signs are in the crowd.
    that a crowd of people with " Birther" posters and "hussainees "posters are not racist.

    they deny not only that they are not racists but more shockingly that there "is NO racism in this."


    They sat back and let the coffers drain into halliburton and blackwater's holding tanks(to be redistributed to share holders I am sure ).

    No bid contracts.
    were ignored as "well if GW says it's OK"
    Dems rejected that but still did the GOP in the majority help to oversee.
    NOPE not a bit.

    Now the same people that complain about immigrants should remember that they are signing up for the military in greater numbers than American kids.
    Those that they would knock have lost children for Americas right to ignore science and pretend Global warming is not happening.

    The ads for the national guard are run in Spanish NOT English.
    How convenient it is to have them fight, spill their blood and die for this land of ungrateful .......

    Them same immigrants that would be told to Go away are the same ones that will sign up and die for americas own big ego.
    which lets face it is what this war is about.


    GW didn't like it that his dad didn't finish the job.

    (though a part of the reason for it was to protect our "allies"(though singular) instead of telling them "sorry we had you all wrong")



    Complain about this comment

  • 268. At 3:00pm on 16 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    244. At 1:38pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    "Now why do you suppose that so many Moslems born in Britain feel that they are Pakistanis, are committed to Islamic jihad, and feel no affinity at all towards the UK or Britain as a society or culture?"

    Neither I nor many others suppose anything of the kind based on the actions of no greater a number than those young US citizens now among what the State Department defones as a terrorist organisation in Somalia.

    I think you make your own prejudices clear. As not all Muslims are terrorists, not all Muslims are of Pakistani ancestry.

    I am British born; I am half Italian. I have friends and acquaintances who are British-born with ancestry in India, Pakistan, Iraq, Morocco, the Caribbean, Zanzibar and Ghana. They are proud of, and respect, their ancestry as I am and do. Why not?

    Stop trying to belittle that, as you so frequently do. (How many times have you cut and pasted the same content over the last year or more? I can remember dozens to the same effect in almost the same words, just on the America blog, let alone the others on Europe, Religion and the Arts) to draw attention away from the issue that is under discussion here. Which is a blog about America, right?

    Complain about this comment

  • 269. At 3:01pm on 16 Sep 2009, AlanLeon wrote:

    I expected that sooner or later it would be declared that any criticism of President Obama amounts to racism. I'm only surprised that it's taken as long as eight months before it happened.

    Complain about this comment

  • 270. At 3:02pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    moston head220.
    there is a difference.
    Many of the politicians in america are as racist as the BNP and are WAY to the right of the tories.

    You just don't know about them because they wear a GOP or Dem badge not a KKK badge.
    There are areas where it is quite acceptable to have been in the KKK( acceptable to the locals not me;)

    Complain about this comment

  • 271. At 3:07pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 272. At 3:12pm on 16 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    255. At 2:16pm on 16 Sep 2009, justcommonfolk wrote:\

    "How can this be racial?"

    I am amazed how people betray themselves.

    What are you trying to say? No-one can be called racist when opposing Obama because he is half black, or because he is half white?

    There is no racism directed at people who are brown, either? Just look at some of the comments about Muslims here.

    And there is obviously some racial component if someone uses the phrase 'throwing his grandmother under a bus', or so it looks to me.

    Let alone SHOUTS at us about it.


    Complain about this comment

  • 273. At 3:15pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    261. At 2:36pm on 16 Sep 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
    saintDominick wrote:
    Ref 226, Magic

    "The opposition isn't objecting to Obama's policies because he is black it is because they don't agree and Obama has many mistakes since coming to office."

    Would you mind explaining the rationale for objecting to President Obama delivering a speech to school children to motivate them to stay in school, work hard and pursue their dreams? While you are at it, would you mind explaining why similar speeches by Presidents Reagan and Bush were acceptable, but Obama's was considered indoctrination?

    (They objected because of the low leval person who put in the agenda: Right How you can help President Obama essay if that had not put in no firestorm)"


    That is not what they said was it? And how is giving a single speech "indoctrination" of any kind or even writing one letter?

    Does the Queen's Xmas Speech indoctrinate the Australians, Canadians etc

    Maybe you should listen to what people say before replying. The protestors were very clear.

    "(So 47% of us are supposed to accept what we disagrre with? Did opponents of Bush on the liberation of Iraq attempt to reform Social Secuirty and Barbara Lee was never forced to apologize for her comments regarding Bush)"

    Are the majority supposed to accept the minority view?

    Complain about this comment

  • 274. At 3:21pm on 16 Sep 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    Ref 266, MA

    "Originally President Obama's "curriculum" called for the students to write an essay on how they could help him. This was outrageous. Children are in no position to make judgements about whether or not the President's policies are good or bad for the country or for themselves."

    Do you honestly believe that President Obama was seeking assistance from school children on how to implement domestic and foreign policy? He, obviously, was trying to motivate children to write and use their imagination in ways that most of them do. Instead of spending their days playing video games, watching TV, and doing worst things he encouraged them to study, work hard, stay in school and pursue their dreams. I realize the idea of a black man preaching to white kids is an unacceptable audacity to many, but it is no different from what former presidents and First Ladies have done and will continue to do.

    Judging by the dismal record of our education system, including the unacceptable rate of dropouts, the least a President can do is make an effort to motivate our young people at a time when we face unprecedented challenges that require skills many of us lack.

    I understand the anxiety and doubts that so many Americans feel for healthcare reform, but opposition to the President speech to children was symptomatic of something more perverse than political opposition.

    Complain about this comment

  • 275. At 3:22pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 276. At 3:22pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    St dom.
    I like your posts as always(well almost) .
    I'm now goingt to put a but in , but" The same happened when President Clinton was in office and, clearly, race was not a factor then."

    I'd say it was.
    Bill was considered at the time"the first black president"
    he was seen as being too into equal rights for the bigots we fight today.


    Admittedly I disliked him a huge amount on trade and manufacturing but also give him credit for getting N.I. to calm down and trying in the middleeast.

    Bush was ,as pointed out, not really a racist , but that was not the case with his supporters.
    Bush tried to get an immigration bill through.
    his party got all racist on him.


    Complain about this comment

  • 277. At 3:24pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    To the one who finds animal torture "interesting".

    266. At 2:56pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    Oh sainted one;

    "Would you mind explaining the rationale for objecting to President Obama delivering a speech to school children to motivate them to stay in school, work hard and pursue their dreams?"

    The rationale would be entirely clear if you told the whole truth instead of just part of it. Originally President Obama's "curriculum" called for the students to write an essay on how they could help him. "


    An essay wow.


    This was outrageous. Children are in no position to make judgements about whether or not the President's policies are good or bad for the country or for themselves."


    He was talking about their education dummy. The idea was to encourage children by showing their views matter.


    " They are in school to learn, not to engage in partisan politics as participants."


    And writing an essay isn't learning?

    Maybe they should just pick cotton and sing songs - or is that only some children?


    "It was imbecillic when BBC WHYS ran on for months about how children should participate in politics but it is pure cynicism for the President of the United States to try to enlist them in helping him puruse his own political agenda."


    When did the President ask this? Troubles with the truth as usual.


    " After the public outrage over it, it was deleted. It's one more example of why someone whose resume, what you Euros call a CV only includes being a "community organizer" and an editor of a law journal has questionable qualifications for the responsibility of being President of the United States. "

    He succeeded yet again in showing the bigotry of his opponents and securing his base for the next election.

    One wonders what issue he will pack next. His opponents seem to be falling into every trap.

    Personally I thought they would go after the Afghan election - practically an open goal. But no they fell for his tactics again - no one has mentioned Afghanistan.

    This is what happens when you have no real leadership and rely on the loudest mouth to lead.

    "Whether foreigners know it or not, President Obama is stepping on one political land mine after another. Now he will have to explain how his plan for socialized medicine does not cut into Medicare benefits and will not raise taxes on the lowest 95% of incomes as he promised. A lot of people who are on Medicare are very worried about this plan and they include Democrats who supported his candidacy and voted for him. I wonder if they had to do it again if they would pull the same levers in the voting booths today. We'll find out in about 3 years but we may get an indication of it next year in the mid-term elections (we don't have bi-elections in the United States.)"


    Oh I would lay you money that President Obama will be home and hosed in 2012. He is picking his fights very carefully and is showing the leaderless and indisciplined Republicans to be extremists with no clue.


    Complain about this comment

  • 278. At 3:25pm on 16 Sep 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    Ref 261, Magic

    "(They objected because of the low leval person who put in the agenda: Right How you can help President Obama essay if that had not put in no firestorm)"

    If he had proposed writing an essay about Mother Theresa he would have been accused of religious bias.

    Complain about this comment

  • 279. At 3:31pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    252 stevo says "Some comments yesterday refering to Mr Obama being of mixed race. Yes this is true however i think you will find that you are either white or not. it doesnt really matter how much of you is black."

    which I totally agree with.
    but this is again why debate in the US is so messed up.
    then there is the very common response of

    "255. At 2:16pm on 16 Sep 2009, justcommonfolk wrote:
    How can this be racial? Obama is BI-RACIAL, doesn't any one remember that his mother was WHITE? Don't you remember his speach where he threw
    his WHITE grandmother under the bus? No matter how you look at it he is still not the first black president, since he is still half white. Only his skin is darker than most whites. Further more he will always be half white."


    JUST COMMON FOLK ( read as just common white folk)

    you are very good at proving how incredible un-intelligent the opposition to Obama is.


    Then all you GOP racists like to scream on and on about lawyers.

    you are a loophole lugnut

    Complain about this comment

  • 280. At 3:32pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    MA "When you have something useful to contribut, maybe we'll listen to it but not before. "

    Complain about this comment

  • 281. At 3:33pm on 16 Sep 2009, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #273

    Are the majority supposed to accept the minority view?


    Most people Simon are more nuanced and don't look at things in a monolithic way. Many independents and some democrats who voted for Obama don't agree with all of his policies.

    and some Moonbats are upset because the U.S has not run away in Iraq and Afghanastan and thrown Dick Cheney in jail without a trial

    Complain about this comment

  • 282. At 3:40pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    256 ninny stop going on about how big it is.
    it is a lot less densely populated which actually makes it easier manage. you just let the fruitscases move to montana.

    yet another of your spammy comments just when you were starting to put your brain in first gear.

    what a shame.

    If you took all the americans and squeezed them into an area 5 times the area of oregon (about same size as UK) I think you guys would be looking at some real blood loss.

    Sorry america IS so big that it means you all should be a little more generous to others. You have huge resources and space.

    Complain about this comment

  • 283. At 3:40pm on 16 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    265. At 2:52pm on 16 Sep 2009, bethpa wrote:
    "
    #262 Squirrelist

    There is no debate in the US anymore...its gone."

    I have suddenly been struck by the idea that so many who deny there is racism involved in the health care debate (which is how this started, it wasn't exclusively about Obama the person!) and demonstrate it against all kinds of non-white ethnic groups seem to be around 60. Has something been festering in them since their youth and the successes of the Civil Rights movement 40 years ago? Or is it just coincidence?

    Just a thought.

    Complain about this comment

  • 284. At 3:43pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    squirreliest;

    "...to draw attention away from the issue that is under discussion here. Which is a blog about America, right?"

    Only in the narrowest sense. In a wider sense it is about Brits calling Americans racists for opposing President Obama's plan for socialized medicine in America. This brings into question what right Brits have to call Americans racists when their own society may be highly racist itself. Time to take a long hard look in the mirror Britain. The Portrait of Dorian Grey seems to be what you've been seeing for a long time. There is an unspoken ugly truth which is very dangerous to keep ignoring.

    "Neither I nor many others suppose anything of the kind based on the actions of no greater a number than those young US citizens now among what the State Department defones as a terrorist organisation in Somalia."

    Au contraire, there are only a handful of Americans who are Islamic jihadists in Somalia but as CNN's documentary makes clear, there may be thousands of Brits in its Islamic community who have been infected because they've been so alienated and ignored, tens of thousands who sympathize with them, and hundreds of thousands who feel similarly alienated from British society. A nation ignores this at its own peril. America ignored the alienation of African Americans until the riots in the 1960s. But those people were not being exploited or recruited as agents of an alien organization whose goal was to overthrow the US government and impose a culture of Sharia law the way al Qaeda would like to change Britain. They just wanted to be integrated into American society. And over the past 40 years, that has been happening to a greater and greater degree. There is no denying enormous progress here by even America's harshest domestic critics. People outside America either don't know the truth or don't want to hear it but the facts remain unchanged. America is among the least racist societies in the world. But it is so large that racially motivated incidents will get lots of publicity well out of proportion to their numbers. This debate about medical care clearly has nothing to do with race, neither President Obama's nor anyone elses.

    Complain about this comment

  • 285. At 3:43pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    243 ma gherkin.

    Simon has a good point.
    you are always going on about any opposition to Israel is anti semetic.

    Now any opposition to racism is racist.

    then you go on to the "most people are not monolithic,, but you are.
    there is really only one issue that drives most comments from you. that is how it links to Israel.

    Complain about this comment

  • 286. At 3:49pm on 16 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    271. Simon21:

    I don't know whether you've confused other people, but you've confused me.

    Just to make it clear, squirrellist has no vampires in his ancestry, Roumanian or otherwise. It is a gross libel.

    (Unless it was the blood transfusions I had on the NHS once. If that's where it came from I'm giving it back.)

    Complain about this comment

  • 287. At 3:49pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    272. At 3:12pm on 16 Sep 2009, squirrellist wrote:
    255. At 2:16pm on 16 Sep 2009, justcommonfolk wrote:\

    "How can this be racial?"

    I am amazed how people betray themselves.

    What are you trying to say? No-one can be called racist when opposing Obama because he is half black, or because he is half white?

    There is no racism directed at people who are brown, either? Just look at some of the comments about Muslims here.

    And there is obviously some racial component if someone uses the phrase 'throwing his grandmother under a bus', or so it looks to me.

    Let alone SHOUTS at us about it."



    It is amazing how such people give forth such bigoted drivel and seem suprised when it is pointed out.

    You would have thought after 1945, the fall of Aparthied, Civil Rights etc that this sort of rubbish would have been consigned to the dustbin - but no we stil get the same slurs etc All that has happened is that Moslems have been added to the usual targets.




    Complain about this comment

  • 288. At 3:50pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    "Bethpa

    "Obama represents a cluster of values that the right wing in America opposes. Being part black is just a part of that cluster"

    Yep but it is a big part and one the GOP are using.

    I criticised Clinton for doing it in the primaries and I'll carry on criticising it until the GOP stop and make active efforts to confront these racists.

    PS this is no criticism of your post i think it was spot on as usual and I happen to know jacksforge does to;)

    That racism during Bush's attempts to reform immigration was proof enough that there are racists in america.
    (i am sure some worried about jobs but really most were racists.
    the minute men on the border . MARK go interview them guys ,or are they all in Wshington having tea.


    Complain about this comment

  • 289. At 3:53pm on 16 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    278. saintDominick: "If he had proposed writing an essay about Mother Theresa he would have been accused of religious bias."

    *********************

    LOL. THAT never would have made it past his staff. Everyone knows that anything or anyone associated with religion is taboo. Silly you. ;-P

    I wish my children could have seen his speech in school. They love having any president talk to them. Unfortunately, it conflicted with our first day's schedule, already too full.

    I didn't like the NEA's involvement, but I have little respect for this organization.

    Complain about this comment

  • 290. At 3:55pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Oh sainted one;

    "Do you honestly believe that President Obama was seeking assistance from school children on how to implement domestic and foreign policy?"

    Yes, like other politicians, President Obama will cite individual letters to him in his speeches to make a political point. You can just hear him now; "Little 9 year old Jackie Wilson from Fort Wayne Indiana wrote to me saying that her father had just lost his job and his family has no medical insurance. She wants to know if she gets swine flu if she will be allowed to die because no doctor will see her because her family is too poor." This is the kind of ammunition he was fishing for. This is why so many people were so angry. It may not occur to people in Europe that this is what that was about because perhaps European politicians don't use those kind of tactics and they are unfamiliar with it. That is why it is irrelevant that they criticize what they don't understand.

    Complain about this comment

  • 291. At 3:55pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    How you can help President Obama essay


    that would have been interesting to read if all the kids did it.
    Kids would write what they are most familiar with.
    and often that is home.
    there may be a buch of short essays that would go along the lines of "i'll help him to hell and do nothing that he says because my dad says he is a communist tsar who blah blah b;ah (lol that is so funny ' communist tsar". you got to love the ignorance in them signs.

    Complain about this comment

  • 292. At 3:56pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    264. At 2:43pm on 16 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:
    251. saintDominick: "There is no evidence that President Bush or his family are racist. In fact, his record suggests the opposite. The question is, how many far right members of the GOP supported his decision to appoint minorities to high level positions?"

    *****************

    Good question. Hard to really know. There were many Blacks who despised Condi Rice for working for Bush. It went in reverse, too."


    Well considering Powell and Rice were both systematically humiliated and treated with contempt by Bush, Cheyney, Rumsfeld et all I think we can see this as mere tokenism.

    In Powell's case it was embarrasing to see how he was treated.

    Complain about this comment

  • 293. At 4:00pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    fluff;

    "MA "When you have something useful to contribut, maybe we'll listen to it but not before."

    Evidently you've been reading it. Why? Mostly I just skim through your prattlings. I rarely spend more than a few seconds each on them as I find them the same tiresome uninformed left wing rhetoric that is the main staple of BBC blogs.

    Complain about this comment

  • 294. At 4:03pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    moonbat gherkin.

    I think you'll find that most want to see Dick go to jail AFTER a trial.
    It was dick that thought trials were not needed anymore.
    get at least one thing right somewhere today.
    even adrienny seems to be trying (occasionally)

    Complain about this comment

  • 295. At 4:04pm on 16 Sep 2009, MagicKirin wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 296. At 4:05pm on 16 Sep 2009, diverticulosis wrote:

    155. At 01:02am on 16 Sep 2009, AnonymousCalifornian wrote

    "To those crying racism regarding the high black vote for Obama in both the primaries and general election:

    While it was definitely racism, it was racism of the understandable sort."



    All I can say is WOW. There is no justification to racism.

    Complain about this comment

  • 297. At 4:06pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    274. At 3:21pm on 16 Sep 2009, saintDominick wrote:
    Ref 266, MA

    I understand the anxiety and doubts that so many Americans feel for healthcare reform, but opposition to the President speech to children was symptomatic of something more perverse than political opposition."


    Well said. It is the dishonesty that is so rank. As if children would be "indoctrinated" by one speech and one essay.

    I had the dubious pleasure of seeing real indoctrination at work and it consisted of more than a single speech.

    No the oppoistion is as Carter said an inability to beleive that black people really are the equivalent of white.

    Complain about this comment

  • 298. At 4:06pm on 16 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    284. MarcusAureliusII:

    As far as I am aware, the writers in the NYT, the Washington Post and elsewhere who have written about this issue, and many contributors here, are not British.



    Complain about this comment

  • 299. At 4:07pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    simon it was embarrassing how powel was treated. then when he was for Obama he got more.


    Complain about this comment

  • 300. At 4:10pm on 16 Sep 2009, publiusdetroiter wrote:

    Ref 266 MarcusAureliusII
    " ...President Obama is stepping on one political land mine after another. Now he will have to explain how his plan for socialized medicine does not cut into Medicare benefits and will not raise taxes on the lowest 95% of incomes as he promised. A lot of people who are on Medicare are very worried about this plan and they include Democrats who supported his candidacy and voted for him."

    As I noted in my posting #210: Medicare is a "socialist" health care system provided by the Federal Government through taxpayer funding. Socialized medicine, if you please. Since socialized medicine is considered to be a threat to our economy and will be an unwanted burden to the U.S. taxpayer; should we not get rid of Medicare? Are some socialized health care programs acceptable and not considered to be a burden to our economy, nor the U.S. taxpayers? What criteria determines acceptable socialized health care and whom it should benefit?

    Complain about this comment

  • 301. At 4:11pm on 16 Sep 2009, Jan_Keeskop wrote:

    Mark: After visiting the link to Maureen Dowd's column that you'd provided, it seems as though her argument boils down to the third paragraph of her column:

    But, fair or not, what I heard [from Representative Wilson's outburst] was an unspoken word in the air: You lie, boy!


    Namely, that whether or not racism is a factor in how President Obama is judged will be found in the eye of the beholder and the ear of the listener.

    Those who seek to find racism in how he is judged will find it; those who don't seek to find racism in how he is judged won't find it.

    The crux of her argument is worth thinking about: is it fair or not to incorporate "unspoken words in the air" in determining whether or not racism plays a role in how the President is judged?

    ranter22: On post 216, Muslims do consider Jesus to be a prophet; see Qur'an 19:30-34. Regarding whom Israel has always belonged to, see Deuteronomy 6:10-12, 7:1-3, and 7:17 in the manual.

    May peace be with everyone.

    Complain about this comment

  • 302. At 4:16pm on 16 Sep 2009, _marko wrote:

    RE: vampires

    I think we can all agree that vampires should be avoided.

    Complain about this comment

  • 303. At 4:16pm on 16 Sep 2009, calmandhope wrote:

    @275 MAII

    While it may be true that the USA is evolving both socially and politically on a different path to Europe, evoloution is not always a good thing. The dodo though its path through evoloution was a good one and ended up being hunted to death. The same thing could equally be true of you.

    Complain about this comment

  • 304. At 4:18pm on 16 Sep 2009, C Smith wrote:

    There are enough racists in every country to be able to say that some would use their racism as a motive for attacking a leader from an ethnic minority, and the US is no exception. As a Brit knowing some people from the south in particular, it seems to me to be a mixture of racism and fear of their rights under the constitution being whittled away. This heady mix coupled with a daily diet of Fox News et al, and their biased and extreme right wing editing of the news, is explosive stuff.
    Why don't they all just calm down? The US is such a polarised society that over reacts at every opportunity. It's a real shame because at heart most Americans are nice people.

    Complain about this comment

  • 305. At 4:19pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Simple Simian;

    "To the one who finds animal torture "interesting"."

    ?????????

    Having raised three dogs adopted from animal shelters from puppies (one died at age 15, the others are still alive) and having rescued several kittens what makes you think I find animal torture interesting? Actually I find it rather gruesome. Torturing Brits with my barbs here is an entirely different matter :-)

    I will say this. If the United States is attacked by terrorists again and it turns out that the plan could have been uncovered and prevented by torturing prisoners at GITMO, whatever you think about the current state of affairs in American politics, know that in the aftermath the Democratic party and the Obama administration will be finished. Americans will see President Obama's sharpest critics on the way he handles America's security as having been dead right and will want a return to the policies of Bush and Chaney. People either don't know or have forgotten the mood of America after 9-11. It was very angry and very ugly. But in the aftermath of another attack, that will pale by comparison. And the worse the attack, the worse it will be for the rest of the world. There is no telling what will happen, especially if it is a WMD attack, particularly a nuclear attack. Expect the worst.

    Complain about this comment

  • 306. At 4:20pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    284. At 3:43pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    squirreliest;

    "...to draw attention away from the issue that is under discussion here. Which is a blog about America, right?"

    Only in the narrowest sense. In a wider sense it is about Brits calling Americans racists for opposing President Obama's plan for socialized medicine in America. This brings into question what right Brits have to call Americans racists when their own society may be highly racist itself."


    No either the proposition is correct or it is not. Nothing to do with Britain.

    That sort of logic is why you never became seriously rich.



    " Time to take a long hard look in the mirror Britain. The Portrait of Dorian Grey seems to be what you've been seeing for a long time. There is an unspoken ugly truth which is very dangerous to keep ignoring."


    Sorry doesn't matter if Britain was Stalins Russia - the opposition to Obama is still racially motivated.

    Rape is rape no matter if n your neighbour is also doing it.


    "Au contraire, there are only a handful of Americans who are Islamic jihadists in Somalia"


    I didn't know there were any. This will pay researching. Americans fighting the US.



    "but as CNN's documentary makes clear, there may be thousands of Brits in its Islamic community who have been infected because they've been so alienated and ignored, tens of thousands who sympathize with them, and hundreds of thousands who feel similarly alienated from British society. "


    And all black people "might" be criminals? And all British jews could be "traitors" Maybe you should stop watching the Dr Goebbels documentaries.

    Or at least srop beleiving them. British moslems, jews and blacks are not secret criminals or traitors to their counrty. And no documentary would propose otherwise.

    Other than the kind you watch (probably after those featuring animals being disposed of "interestingly")


    "A nation ignores this at its own peril. America ignored the alienation of African Americans until the riots in the 1960s. But those people were not being exploited or recruited as agents of an alien organization whose goal was to overthrow the US government and impose a culture of Sharia law the way al Qaeda would like to change Britain."


    A nation ignores its racial bigots at its own peril as well. Look at Nazi Germany. The US should take note.

    "They just wanted to be integrated into American society. And over the past 40 years, that has been happening to a greater and greater degree. There is no denying enormous progress here by even America's harshest domestic critics. People outside America either don't know the truth or don't want to hear it but the facts remain unchanged."

    And America's blacks don't know the truth either - that is because they are black presumably.

    " America is among the least racist societies in the world. But it is so large that racially motivated incidents will get lots of publicity well out of proportion to their numbers. This debate about medical care clearly has nothing to do with race, neither President Obama's nor anyone elses."

    Thefact you have the issues you do with black people, moslems, Palestians, English people gays etc give gthe lie to that last statement.

    "America is the least rascist nation in the world and we will deal with any coloured person who says otherwise."

    Complain about this comment

  • 307. At 4:21pm on 16 Sep 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    Ref 290, MA

    "That is why it is irrelevant that they criticize what they don't understand."

    I would not be surprised if what foreign observers see after reading some of the posts in this blog is a public consumed by fear bordering paranoia, intense cultural bias, arrogance, greed, egotism, and supine ignorance.

    Constructive criticism should never be dismissed, regardless of where it comes from. One of our greatest weaknesses is our tendency to reject external input and always think that we know best. We live in a great country and most of us are very proud to be Americans, but that doesn't mean that we are perfect or that everything we have or do is the best. We would be well served to assess what others have, adopt the best their systems have to offer, and tailor them to meet our values and expectations.

    Complain about this comment

  • 308. At 4:22pm on 16 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    282. fluffytale: "256 ninny stop going on about how big it is.
    it is a lot less densely populated which actually makes it easier manage. you just let the fruitscases move to montana."

    ***************************

    Right. Because its 5-times-greater population has more space, it's easier to manage.

    Comparing the UK to the US, or any one country to the US, is size-wise apples to oranges.

    Complain about this comment

  • 309. At 4:24pm on 16 Sep 2009, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #294 fluffytale wrote:
    moonbat gherkin.

    I think you'll find that most want to see Dick go to jail AFTER a trial.
    It was dick that thought trials were not needed anymore.
    get at least one thing right somewhere today.
    even adrienny seems to be trying (occasionally


    Keeping with your usual insults like a moonbat.

    Well you are assuming that he will be found guilty. Most Americans agree with Cheney as opposed to appeasers like Jimmy Carter, a man who does belong in jail for giving comfort to the enemy

    Complain about this comment

  • 310. At 4:26pm on 16 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    292.Simon21: "Well considering Powell and Rice were both systematically humiliated and treated with contempt by Bush, Cheyney, Rumsfeld et all I think we can see this as mere tokenism.

    In Powell's case it was embarrasing to see how he was treated."

    ******************

    So Blacks hated Condi because she was "systematically humiliated and treated with contempt" by Bush? That's a new one. Creative.

    Complain about this comment

  • 311. At 4:29pm on 16 Sep 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    Ref. 255, justcommonfolk

    "How can this be racial? Obama is BI-RACIAL, doesn't any one remember that his mother was WHITE?"

    Most Americans consider a person with a drop of African blood black. To most Americans Barack Obama is a black man. Period.

    Whether or not the ongoing attacks are motivated by race is a different matter. I suspect it is a factor, but not the main reason (s) for the constant attacks against him. The goal is not to remove a black man from office, but to regain the Presidency in 2012 and narrow the gap in Congress in 2010, everything else is background noise.

    Complain about this comment

  • 312. At 4:31pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    295. At 4:04pm on 16 Sep 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
    ref #285

    Wrong as usual about my support for Israel."

    Which is unquestioning and goes way beyind appeasement. ANd most jews know what a disastorous policy that turned out to be.

    According to you everybody is an antisemite including most jews, Desmond Tutu, Mother Theresa.

    From you it is a badge of honor - like being called a "communis" by Terreblanche

    Complain about this comment

  • 313. At 4:34pm on 16 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    296.diverticulosis:

    155. At 01:02am on 16 Sep 2009, AnonymousCalifornian wrote

    "To those crying racism regarding the high black vote for Obama in both the primaries and general election:

    While it was definitely racism, it was racism of the understandable sort."



    All I can say is WOW. There is no justification to racism.

    ****************

    WOW is right. The same argument was made in defense of women who voted for Hillary because she was a woman.

    Kind of takes some getting used to, the idea that an aggrieved party cannot really be racist or sexist.

    Complain about this comment

  • 314. At 4:35pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    pd

    "As I noted in my posting #210: Medicare is a "socialist" health care system provided by the Federal Government through taxpayer funding. Socialized medicine, if you please. Since socialized medicine is considered to be a threat to our economy and will be an unwanted burden to the U.S. taxpayer; should we not get rid of Medicare?"

    In case you haven't noticed, this program and others like it that were supposed to be self supporting are in serious financial trouble. Like all pyramid schemes, they eventually reach a point where payout cannot possibly be sustained by intake. In these cases the crunch will come with the retirement of the baby boomer generation because demographically they will present the systems with sudden surges in payouts. The solution will be very unpalatable but probaby the only alternative. Higher age for eligibility of benefits, lower benefits, means testing, and higher paycheck withholdings and other contributions.

    The Republican plan to "privatize" social security would have been an even worse disaster as many would have lost their shirts in the stock market. With any luck, the world will end as a result of global warming before the system goes entirely broke.

    Complain about this comment

  • 315. At 4:41pm on 16 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    307. saintDominick: "I would not be surprised if what foreign observers see after reading some of the posts in this blog is a public consumed by fear bordering paranoia, intense cultural bias, arrogance, greed, egotism, and supine ignorance.

    Constructive criticism should never be dismissed, regardless of where it comes from. One of our greatest weaknesses is our tendency to reject external input and always think that we know best. We live in a great country and most of us are very proud to be Americans, but that doesn't mean that we are perfect or that everything we have or do is the best. We would be well served to assess what others have, adopt the best their systems have to offer, and tailor them to meet our values and expectations."

    ********************

    I wouldn't be surprised if they took away some other, more positive impressions. At a minimum, they'll see that these traits plague both sides of our partisan divide.

    The BBC's Have Your Say comments are not all that different. Emotions are running high.

    We would all be better-served if we were to keep an open mind. Even about Republicans.

    Complain about this comment

  • 316. At 4:47pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    "It was very angry and very ugly.'

    and it still is. and it was ugly racism.


    Complain about this comment

  • 317. At 4:48pm on 16 Sep 2009, GH1618 wrote:

    Jan_Keeskop (#301) "The crux of her argument is worth thinking about: is it fair or not to incorporate "unspoken words in the air" in determining whether or not racism plays a role in how the President is judged?"

    No, but some op-ed writers have a reputation for being fair and others have a reputation for being provocative. Dowd is in the latter category. That's legitimate, as one purpose of the op-ed page is to provoke thought and discussion.

    Dowd is known for omitting words as well as (now) adding them, and a term has been coined for it: Dowdification

    Complain about this comment

  • 318. At 4:55pm on 16 Sep 2009, _marko wrote:

    MAII: "There is an unspoken ugly truth which is very dangerous to keep ignoring"

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/8255125.stm

    Complain about this comment

  • 319. At 4:56pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    Gherkin

    OH I'm not really that sorry about my name calling. I did give it up but you guys couldn't so I joined in again.
    but really if you ninny and the erroneous one want to look for insults then look at your own posts.
    you insult yourself as a human being there all the time.

    Complain about this comment

  • 320. At 4:58pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 321. At 5:02pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    It does seem that this debate is being controlled by the mods again.
    I have reason to believe that an Old time contributor tried to make a comment but found the Mods gitmo banning style (which applies only to the left) was in the way.
    Shame Mark that this debate cannot be entered because the very same racists that post here did complain about another poster so much they were banned.
    banned for daring to stick up for Palestinians when they were being killed.

    Yet here we are with gherkin trying to drag his agenda in as usual.
    If the life time bans of posters from JW time running this are to be enforced then a campaign to get the other equal or worse offenders banned should be on the books.
    Wandering Angus was trying to make a comment.

    no defemation no rude words, no name calling.
    and it was removed WHY.
    MM there is still a very big question as to how these blogs have been managed in the past And I would ask you to look into this matter.
    when you have time.

    Complain about this comment

  • 322. At 5:05pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    yep still a ninny.

    Complain about this comment

  • 323. At 5:05pm on 16 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    311. At 4:29pm on 16 Sep 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    "Whether or not the ongoing attacks are motivated by race is a different matter. I suspect it is a factor'

    I think one can safely say it is more than a suspicion, and certainly a factor. Why the emphasis on Indonesia, Kenya, and Muslims, singly and in combination in so many attacks on him, during and after the election? None are predominantly white. Why the constant references to his African grandfather (yet another in a rather spurious 'report' in the Boston Globe just two days ago)?

    Why is the 'Tea Party' organiser happily repeating on his blog "Our choice this November is between a man who has fought and suffered for our flag – John McCain or a man who considers our flag to be trash – the former Barry Soetoro, Indonesian Muslim turned welfare thug turned anointed." after denying that is what he called Obama on TV? (Technically true, of course, though dishonest, because that is what he called a presidential candidatewho he referred to as "Barry Soetoro".

    Smells of fish, and as someone said of Caliban, 'not of the freshest'.

    Complain about this comment

  • 324. At 5:09pm on 16 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    290. MarcusAureliusII: "Yes, like other politicians, President Obama will cite individual letters to him in his speeches to make a political point. You can just hear him now; "Little 9 year old Jackie Wilson from Fort Wayne Indiana wrote to me saying that her father had just lost his job and his family has no medical insurance. She wants to know if she gets swine flu if she will be allowed to die because no doctor will see her because her family is too poor." This is the kind of ammunition he was fishing for. "

    **********************

    It's hard to believe that he was "fishing" for these letters, but the Democrats are as famous for showcasing them as Republicans are for showcasing soldiers. I could definitely see Obama reading one of these letters or having the child featured somewhere.

    But, then, the child would be investigated and all hell would break loose because his/her parent had some remote link to a political party or some politically incorrect organization.

    I think I'm just going to tell my kids to not write any letters to the president. I don't want the media outside my house.

    Complain about this comment

  • 325. At 5:11pm on 16 Sep 2009, Trotzalledem wrote:

    Mark,
    It seems to me that the current, very public stress in the society and domestic politics of the USA has roots which are a little more complicated than racism alone although that is an element.

    Firstly, the USA is a country of great diversity both geographically and also ethnic origin and culture. When one travels, for example from New York to El Paso to Seattle, one covers distances broadly comparable with a journey around North Western Europe, Eastern Europe and the Middle East. The regions look and the societies in these places in the USA seem very different from one another and one can marvel that they all feel part of the same nation.

    A good starting point when looking at what is happening in the USA is to look at demographic trends which are changing the in-place political power structure:
    - Since the late 1980s, more citizens of the USA live in the half of the country facing towards Asia and Australasia than towards Europe and Israel. This must affect the majority’s view on international relations .... as well as on internal, national issues.
    - The proportion of the population of the USA with an ethnic origin other than in Europe or with a religious affinity for Israel is approaching that of those who have had the political power over the last 233 years. In some parts of the diversified but United States, the proportion now is reversed and clearly visible.
    - The success of Martin Luther King and the improvement in opportunities for children from disadvantaged families in the 1960’s has, with time, worked its way through the education system and society and the results include more people from non-European or Jewish culture who are capable and eager to have a major role in shaping their country both politically and in business.
    - The rate of integration of different ethnic, cultural and religious parts of the population into one society is something from which we who live in Europe can learn. While one sees how, in many places in the United States this is successful in the work-place during the working day, one sees by the places where people live just how the different cultural groups in the USA, to a large extent, practise a form of “separate development” with each group living in their own surroundings. This is, at first, surprising when one considers that from the beginning all citizens of America (except the native Americans) were/are immigrants. It is also clearly visible when one watches young men and women walking hand-in-hand in a shopping mall: the combination where one person is from one ethnic/cultural background and the other from the other is quite definitely the exception. This “social separate development” can only lead to an “us and them” feeling and discord in society: it cannot help a unified approach to issues either in the United States or in any country here in Europe where we have a similar situation developing.

    In addition to this, it is reasonable to expect that the part of society which has consistently carried responsibility and political power in the USA in the past is currently enduring a period of something akin to resentment with regard to the loss of political standing and respect in the world caused by the actions of the last government .... which they elected and supported. This is made even more difficult for a person to understand if, since childhood, he has been indoctrinated from all sides with the view that everything American “is great”.... a typical European seems to grow up with a healthier, more sceptical view regarding his country and, particularly his government: he is prepared to express it!

    A result of the current resentment in the right of centre, mainly white part of the population there may be a wish to find a common cause: that may well be resistance to a “different” President and the policies his government seek to implement to improve the lives of the “them” .... the less advantaged. This phenomenon of “turning against” an identifiable part of the population and so gaining solidarity and group self-esteem has been seen in history and in different societies and countries many times.

    This background of social issues in the United States, which have nothing directly to do with health care, provide for the lobbyists and over-loud voices of the vested interests of the pharmaceutical industry, the opposition political party as well as right-wing and religious groups a fertile basis for agitation and stirring-up discord. The health care reform, the regulation of the financial industry and other reforms to come are convenient “weapons” for these groups to use for their own ends rather than to help the United States regain its shine.

    President Carter is right in saying that “race” is an issue in the current discord in the United States. However, that is but part of the challenge facing President Obama and his Team. As an a-political friend of the United States with all its great attributes and all the challenges it faces at the moment, I wish him well.

    Complain about this comment

  • 326. At 5:13pm on 16 Sep 2009, faeyth wrote:

    Anytime there is any protest in this country that start off as legitimate,freak extremist and Lobbyist show up and ruin it for everyone.I signed the protest for Iraq war but I wasn't a member of the Move-On,I believe in taxes and Welfare but I think the government needs to be responsible with them as well.I believe in treating animals with respect and cleaning the environment however anytime you try to help Eco-terrorists ruin it with there nonsense.I believe in Abortion with limitations however pro-choice and pro-life ruin it.Extremists in the LEFT and Right think that anytime people in the middle of issues try a moderate approach that all of sudden people agree with them and their extreme views and they need to get in on it.They suck.When will the middle class,moderate Ind. which most of us are get a fair say in this country.

    Complain about this comment

  • 327. At 5:15pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    315 only the BNP supporters are going away from this thinking you got even one point in.
    Sorry to burst you patriotic bubble there.

    I'll keep that open mind for those that show they have one.
    And YOU are not one of those republican.
    They exist but they find you and your type to be an embarrassment .

    Complain about this comment

  • 328. At 5:27pm on 16 Sep 2009, mischievousdoug wrote:

    Same old guilt trip that got old 20 years ago. Folks, the guilt well is dry, it doesn't work anymore. Move on. Yawn.

    Complain about this comment

  • 329. At 5:28pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    305. At 4:19pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    Simple Simian;

    I am not black Marcus I have said this before.


    "To the one who finds animal torture "interesting"."

    ?????????

    Having raised three dogs adopted from animal shelters from puppies (one died at age 15, the others are still alive) and having rescued several kittens what makes you think I find animal torture interesting? Actually I find it rather gruesome."


    Well that is odd. You repeatedly tell us how you found a bullfight and the attendant butchery "interesting".

    I think in reality you are probably not permitted to keep animals.

    New Jersey must have standards.

    "Torturing Brits with my barbs here is an entirely different matter :-)"

    Skewering American racial bigots is my blood sport :-) Though it is like shooting fish in a barrell.

    I get most of my ammunition from you. Thanks

    "I will say this. If the United States is attacked by terrorists again and it turns out that the plan could have been uncovered and prevented by torturing prisoners at GITMO, whatever you think about the current state of affairs in American politics, know that in the aftermath the Democratic party and the Obama administration will be finished."


    SO you do you find torture "interesting" (fascinating euphenism)as well? What about if white people are victims of it?


    " Americans will see President Obama's sharpest critics on the way he handles America's security as having been dead right and will want a return to the policies of Bush and Chaney. "


    Including those Americans you told us are fighting as terrorists in Somalia? I am researching these now.

    I am sure the results will be fascinating - so much for US racial harmony eh. Blew your whole argument out of the water.


    What a giveaway.

    Complain about this comment

  • 330. At 5:32pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    310. At 4:26pm on 16 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    "So Blacks hated Condi because she was "systematically humiliated and treated with contempt" by Bush? That's a new one. Creative."

    Did all "blacks" hate Condi? You must be very well informed. Not making a stupid and racially tinged generalisation by any chance.

    I can't speak for millions of US blacks but it was well know Cheyney and Rumsfeld hated her and Powell.

    Complain about this comment

  • 331. At 5:36pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    309. At 4:24pm on 16 Sep 2009, MagicKirin wrote:


    "Well you are assuming that he will be found guilty. Most Americans agree with Cheney as opposed to appeasers like Jimmy Carter, a man who does belong in jail for giving comfort to the enemy"

    Oh like most jews think Mother Theresa was an anti-semite? According to you.

    You think most Americans like Dick Cheyney over Carter?

    Most Americans do not beleive Israel is a divine paradise inhabited by saints and kittens - and that is a fact

    Only you thinks that.

    Complain about this comment

  • 332. At 5:37pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    marko, I'd go for the roast crown rack. Unfortunately, the students are probably too young to be allowed to experience the art of matching the best wine for different foods. Of course great red Medoc is the classic match for lamb but there are other fine matches as well. I'll bet a great California or Aussie Cab would also be an excellent pairing. As for poor Marcus the lamb, his fate was to be slaughtered and eaten. I hope it was done humanely. This Marcus is in no such danger. This Marcus is the eat-or, not the eat-ee. I usually try to consume at least one Brit by lunch most days :-)

    Complain about this comment

  • 333. At 5:37pm on 16 Sep 2009, praack wrote:

    in the US when you wish to stop any type of discussion or debate you can easilyt do it by calling the person a racist or sexist. and it will work every time. Even if it is not true the burden of proof is on the accused not the accuser and the implication is that the acccused is in fact guilty.

    I expect to see race used throughout the administrations term to shut down any protest or discussion. it has already been used in congress and the house. Now it is being pointed to the common people in a ploy to pit neighbor against neighbor.

    shameful to use this for a political ploy instead of focusing efforts when true issues of racism arise

    Complain about this comment

  • 334. At 5:38pm on 16 Sep 2009, bethpa wrote:

    #283 Squirrelist


    You are right that there is an age divide in how people perceive blacks

    Younger people are affected more by the cultural developments shown in movies and on tv where blacks are intelligent and appealing personalities. People like Eddie Murphy, Denzel Washington and Will Smith have been very helpful to stop prejudice against blacks...Tiger Woods too is helpful in breaking negative stereotypes...

    But older people ( above 55 or so) are less affected by these cultural changes of the black image in the media.

    I too am affected /infected with prejudice ( confession is good for the soul I am told).

    I can not stand white males particularly when they are Republicans.

    They are so pushy and take over any group that allows them in.. ..helping one another to take power and pushing others out.. ; ) Ah well they are on their way to becoming a minorty group. Lets hope the next people in power will have greater sensitivity to others. It might even be nice if the people in power represented all groups ..what a radical thought that is.

    Imagine if the people in power were from many different ethnic, racial and religious back rounds...I sort of like that idea...

    Complain about this comment

  • 335. At 5:39pm on 16 Sep 2009, bethpa wrote:

    #288

    Ah fluffy tale ..you know jacksforge..I am happy his presence is still felt on this forum...

    : )

    Complain about this comment

  • 336. At 5:41pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    299. At 4:07pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:
    simon it was embarrassing how powel was treated. then when he was for Obama he got more."

    When you saw how he was set up at the UN in a key speech with bogus photos and made out to be an ill informed buffoon by his own side - and this to a US Secretary of State it was excruciating to watch his degradation.

    Rice was just ignored.





    Complain about this comment

  • 337. At 5:46pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    281. At 3:33pm on 16 Sep 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
    ref #273

    Are the majority supposed to accept the minority view?


    Most people Simon are more nuanced and don't look at things in a monolithic way. Many independents and some democrats who voted for Obama don't agree with all of his policies."


    That is irrelevant. The majority apparently agree with him. You suggest they be ignored and the minority view prevail.

    Is that your concept of democracy?

    "and some Moonbats are upset because the U.S has not run away in Iraq and Afghanastan and thrown Dick Cheney in jail without a trial"

    The US did run away in Iraq sorry did no one tell you? They pulled out having accomplished nothing. Oh sorry they did increase Iran's power enormously.

    The Iranians still can't beleive their luck. They were practicaly given a whole country as a satellite.

    Complain about this comment

  • 338. At 5:47pm on 16 Sep 2009, JimboMcC wrote:

    As a Brit who has spent much of my working life in America I would like to put my tuppence worth into this debate.

    1 I do not think that many of the things are motivated by Obamas race, but rather a fall in ratings and a disappoint, whoever genuine that things are not going exactly to plan....

    2 Many protestors, especially in the Tea Party protests are white, but watching on television, mainly NBC and MSNBC (not exactly friends of the afore mentioned groups), I have seen African Americans, some Latinos and one or two Asians 9this is of course not a Scientific study but a news viewers thoughts...)

    3 the easiest way to shut people up and divert attention away from bad policies or a fall in ratings would be play "race" or "religion" card

    4 as to President Obamas middle name, I would not claim that was racial more along a religous line

    5 President Obama was elected by a white majority....certainly in the Community where I stayed during the election, which was mainly white everyone seemed to be voting Democrat...

    6 I don't class President Obama as African-American at all, after all his mother is white...so therefore he is half and half, if anyone can be accused of playing the race card it could be said to be the President and the Democrats.....helpful to forget being half white and play the good old race card...gets you lots of kudos from the media after all..unless you like FOX....

    Cheers

    Wee Jim

    Complain about this comment

  • 339. At 5:52pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    interestingly after the elections the bbc JW first blog was "will they get over victimhood."

    Complain about this comment

  • 340. At 5:52pm on 16 Sep 2009, publiusdetroiter wrote:

    Ref 314 MarcusAureliusII

    The question still remains. Should we get rid of Medicare? Save ourselves from creeping "socialism" by elliminating those "socialist" programs we already have to become, once again, a "...more perfect Union"?

    I do agree with you that Social Security would have met an untimely demise had the Republican plan to "privatize" it been passed. The U.S. people would have lost both there individual retirement savings and their Social Security. The doomsday clock is still ticking on Social Security in our fragile economy.

    You may be in agreement with me that health care reform is badly needed. The bills sitting in both House and Senate address health care insurance reform, but not reformation of the health care system. Costs for health care services are spiralling beyond a point where most everyone will not be able to afford even minimum standards of health care within the next few years at the current rate of health care inflation. Even those of us with employer-provided health care insurance; or, on Medicare/Medicaid.

    It is not a matter of, will the bubble in the health care system burst; but when will it burst? When it does burst, will our fragile economy be able to take the impact? Is this the time for "We the People..." to be shuffling in the streets enmasse, calling names and pointing fingers to little avail; or the time to exercise our duty as U.S. citizens and pressure our own Congressional representatives to stop playing partisan politics and catering to special interests groups so that they can present and pass the legislation we need for reformation of the health care system before it collapses?

    I do not see the current legislation, still in debate, as an instrument that will prevent the collapse of the health care system. Not even as a stop-gate measure that will extend the time before the up-coming collapse.

    Complain about this comment

  • 341. At 5:52pm on 16 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    328. At 5:27pm on 16 Sep 2009, mischievousdoug wrote:

    Same old guilt trip that got old 20 years ago. Folks, the guilt well is dry, it doesn't work anymore. Move on. Yawn.

    Fine, why not? Easy, isn't it?

    "I don't want to know about/hear about that any more. Let's move on. To something I'm more comfortable with."

    So next time I comment on a foreign issue that is so dear to some people's hearts here--or maybe even yours--by saying "Let's move on, yawn" you'll accept that as a valid response?

    Complain about this comment

  • 342. At 5:58pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    331 simon. you are right Most americans don't think that.
    but it is still a lot and a lot more than just gherkin.

    Complain about this comment

  • 343. At 6:04pm on 16 Sep 2009, SuperMatt22 wrote:

    I agree with your observation that, "black and white" have been so important in America's past, it would be very strange if for some reason today they didn't mean anything. While I'm too young to remember or have experienced the Civil Rights Era, I think I know racism when I see it. What strikes me most is when I see people protesting (most notable those of the "9/12 Project") with signs claiming "I Want MY Country Back" or "We're Taking Back OUR Country." Now, that certainly could mean that they want to save the country from the special interests and corrupt politicians they see having control of it, but it also leads one to believe that "my country" is one that can't be governed by an African-American President. When one frames the debate as "my country",logically it follows that those who disagree don't have any ownership in this nation...

    There are of course the less subtle references to President Obama being everything from a Marxist to a fascist. I always laugh when I see signs claiming the President to be a "fascist communist." Is it just me, or does anyone else see these political philosophies as diametrically opposed to one another? Perhaps a bit of political and historical context would benefit these protesters' message! It seems to me that these attacks are almost certainly fear-based. However, the big question is, do they truly fear the policies, or are they afraid of the man?

    Complain about this comment

  • 344. At 6:05pm on 16 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    317. At 4:48pm on 16 Sep 2009, GH1618 wrote:

    "Dowd is known for omitting words as well as (now) adding them"

    It is, semantically speaking, a perfectly fair inference, given the man's previous utterances, actions and background. If heonly meant "that statement you have just made is incorrect" why would he not have shouted "That is a lie!"?

    I was recently referred to as "boy" on this blog in a somewhat similar context, and the implication then seemed quite clear, since the exchange that provoked it had nothing whatsoever to do with age.


    Complain about this comment

  • 345. At 6:08pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    335 bethpa. he sends his regard.
    and is glad you are back. shame so many others were chased away.
    jacksforge was a very naughty boy and tried to tell the truth several time in a row . against the old moderators wishes.
    so he is now a U number.

    Complain about this comment

  • 346. At 6:12pm on 16 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    334. At 5:38pm on 16 Sep 2009, bethpa wrote:

    "I too am affected /infected with prejudice ( confession is good for the soul I am told)."


    I quite sympathise. I can't stand right-wingers either, whatever colour they happen to be. (Though the white ones, in my experience, are usually puce.) Or whatever sex, they are, come to think of it. I fear my prejudices are greater than yours :-)

    Complain about this comment

  • 347. At 6:14pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    wee jim


    what wee.

    Complain about this comment

  • 348. At 6:16pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    341 that guilt well is dry.
    that is mentioned by some racist.

    So it is not the same well that america sinks a few billion down in arms sales(or gifts rather).

    Complain about this comment

  • 349. At 6:18pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 350. At 6:22pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    pub maybe the left should have let the GOP screw up the ss.
    They would have no supporters now.

    Complain about this comment

  • 351. At 6:25pm on 16 Sep 2009, MasterShogu wrote:

    I must say its very entertaining to read Marcus wield his foil so effectively and slap around several of you lunatic-fringe types (you know who you are!). This is worth the labor of reading through so many long and inane posts. In typical fashion, several of you resort to ad-hominem attacks against him as you cannot defeat his prose. Grow up.

    A master of insults, wit and sufficient intelligence. A potent combo I'd think the british would appreciate. Keep up the good work, old boy! Highly entertaining stuff.

    Complain about this comment

  • 352. At 6:28pm on 16 Sep 2009, mischievousdoug wrote:

    341. At 5:52pm on 16 Sep 2009, squirrellist wrote

    "So next time I comment on a foreign issue that is so dear to some people's hearts here--or maybe even yours--by saying "Let's move on, yawn" you'll accept that as a valid response"
    Absolutely. We all have different filters for information. A lot of what transpires on these boards is merely noise and people are entitled to define that for themselves. This particular issue has over 340 responses to it - it is very pertinent for a lot of people. It just doesn't for me. I am a white male who grew up in the Southern US. I've heard cries of racism over the slightest excuse my entire life. I've been told that by virtue of being a white male who grew up in the south, that I am a racist. Its actually sad that so much energy is spent on these guilt trips versus building something constructive.

    Complain about this comment

  • 353. At 6:29pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    look tea comes in a bag or loose.\
    I'm the loose tea drinker.
    others are for the bag.
    the right wish me to respect their argument to listen and that they are neither incredibly thick or racist.

    Then they put up a sign saying "communist tsar"

    I'm sorry. you all want to be taken seriously.but really why should those that recognise the joke take you seriously

    Complain about this comment

  • 354. At 6:35pm on 16 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    343. At 6:04pm on 16 Sep 2009, SuperMatt22 wrote:

    "When one frames the debate as "my country",logically it follows that those who disagree don't have any ownership in this nation..."

    Agreed, and it seems obvious enough which groups are expected to relinquish 'ownership' or at least own less than others. I see that what we may call the "Baucus Bill" (which apparently will not gain any Republican support anyway) while making it clear that illegal immigrants will have no access to health insurance, says that their children will. I await developments with interest.

    "It seems to me that these attacks are almost certainly fear-based. However, the big question is, do they truly fear the policies, or are they afraid of the man?"

    The unanswered question is "Would they fear those policies if they had been proposed by another man (or woman)?" Or quite so much? We are told here the answer is 'Yes', but I for one cannot say I have yet been convinced.


    Complain about this comment

  • 355. At 6:39pm on 16 Sep 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    Ref 323, Squirrellist

    "Why the emphasis on Indonesia, Kenya, and Muslims, singly and in combination in so many attacks on him, during and after the election?"

    Of course there are racists in America, and there is no question that politicians and the insurance industry are playing them like a fiddle to achieve their goals. However, I honestly believe that the main objectives are to undermine President Obama's effectiveness, discredit him, and derail his policies to regain seats in 2010 and have a chance in 2012. Race is one of several tools being used to inflame passions and prevent constructive discussion of an issue of critical importance to our future.

    The goal of all the hyperbole that dominates the debate, from claims of death panels to racism, is to create a climate of anger and fear to maintain the status quo, and at this point I am afraid the far right and the insurance companies have the upper hand.

    I think it is amusing when I hear Democrats say that the GOP is a party in disarray, what I see is the opposite, the GOP is well organized in lock step and determined as ever to regain control of Congress and the White House in the near future.

    Complain about this comment

  • 356. At 6:40pm on 16 Sep 2009, mischievousdoug wrote:

    341 (mischievous Doug wrote) that guilt well is dry.
    348 (Fluffytale wrote) that is mentioned by some racist.
    See folks, it took just 1 short post for refusing to feel guilty about race to be labeled a racist. Only in America!

    Complain about this comment

  • 357. At 6:40pm on 16 Sep 2009, Feohme wrote:

    Mark,

    If you’ve got the stamina to make it this far down the blog, I think by now you will have got your answer - which is I, I think, that some of the folks at the demo are primarily driven by racism. However, there are a fair number there who have genuine ideological concerns with the proposals and so labelling them all as racists would be distinctly unfair.

    What perhaps puzzles and worries me are the large number who are content to quote as fact clearly erroneous nonsense. The number of people who can be deliberately confused and gallivanted by a simple effort to ‘push their buttons’ (e.g. label something ‘socialist’, lurid tales about ‘death panels’). When such a vitriolic rent-a-mob can be so easily mobilised by moneyed interest and a compliant media company, it should start alarm bells ringing for the future of your democracy.

    Still as Marcus would no doubt remind me, that is America’s problem. The only thing we on this side of the Atlantic can do from this is learn lessons and ensure that we never get ourselves so in-hoc to big business and retain our impartiality requirements for television news (oh dear, that will set Marcus off as well).

    Perhaps, in closing, I might note that maybe when the Founding Fathers were framing their new nation, they modelled it too closely on the Roman Republic - we all know how that ended!

    Complain about this comment

  • 358. At 6:43pm on 16 Sep 2009, KeithFromUS wrote:

    Perhaps the white-half of Obama is in fact racist, with his comment that Kanye West was a jackass. Ref: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5h4Sh14_0zK5jI_uUQ96Kaka0PgUw

    Maybe even his white-half is racist against his black-half...

    - please note the humor and sarcasm ;)

    I think the vast majority of people at the tea parties where motivated by economic and political beliefs.

    That said... Crackpots and nutcases will come out of the wood-work anytime there are large protests or rallies and many of the photos show them at their worst. Xenophobes based on whatever they perceive to be different from themselves (race, religion, political beliefs)

    There are also plenty of photos that show just what you would expect, people wanting smaller federal government with more fiscal responsibility.

    Complain about this comment

  • 359. At 6:43pm on 16 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    346. squirrellist:

    334. At 5:38pm on 16 Sep 2009, bethpa wrote:

    "I too am affected /infected with prejudice ( confession is good for the soul I am told)."


    I quite sympathise. I can't stand right-wingers either, whatever colour they happen to be. (Though the white ones, in my experience, are usually puce.) Or whatever sex, they are, come to think of it. I fear my prejudices are greater than yours :-)


    *********************

    At least I like liberals. I know they mean well. Not like you two. Happy to hear you're not racists, though.

    Complain about this comment

  • 360. At 6:59pm on 16 Sep 2009, publiusdetroiter wrote:

    Ref 343 SuperMatt22
    "I always laugh when I see signs claiming the President to be a "fascist communist." Is it just me, or does anyone else see these political philosophies as diametrically opposed to one another?"

    There were many indications throughout the crowd of protesters that far too many were politically naive, at best. Grass-root movements are traditionally made up of politically naive, ill-informed, inactive electorate that are angry and frustrated because some event jolted them from their lethagy. These sunshine patriots are easily manipulated into thinking their sudden entrance into the politcal arena is going to change the out-come of elections. Elections decided by active (not necessarily well-informed) electors.

    Grass-root movements typically sputter out once the bemused, naive, rank and file discover that the movement requires them to continuously participate and provide financial support for the movement to continue. One cannot depend upon citizens who have constantly failed their duty to be well-informed, active electors. Their current enthusiasm will quickly fade like a New Year resolution.

    Complain about this comment

  • 361. At 7:22pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    pd

    "You may be in agreement with me that health care reform is badly needed. The bills sitting in both House and Senate address health care insurance reform, but not reformation of the health care system."

    Of course I agree. I just don't know how. This is a problem that requires serious thought, careful debate, compromise, and clearheadedness. Congress cannot slough this one off with the same catastrophic consequences they got away with in the bank bail out fiasco. That just isn't good enough. I think that is what a lot of the protest is about. People don't want a repeat of that kind of thing about something so important that touches all of our lives directly. They are right to protest and make their voices heard loud and clear in the halls of Congress. Calling them racists doesn't help any, it only makes them angrier.

    If this was an easy problem, it would have been solved a long time ago. Reports about other countries' systems are not good. They cover up a lot of the truth. Even President Obama said this requires an American solution. One problem for example in Britain according to widespread reports is the filth in their hospitals. They can't even afford to keep them clean. Compare that to ANY American hospital. Every one I've been in is spotless. Yes there was that case of the Veterans Hospital in Virginia I think a few years ago, a disgrace. There's an example of a government run hospital for you. Another was the HMO hospitals where they imported foreign doctors from the third world who worked under their license for very low wages. They were told to hold back on the best medicines to keep costs low even if they knew what to prescribe in the American pharmacopia. You couldn't sue them for malpractice because of an unintentional technical loophole, an oversight in the laws that allowed setting them up. So we've seen this kind of thing here before and it does not work. It's a mistake we don't want repeated. I think Congress is getting the message. We'll see what the gang of six come up with. So far in this debate here, I don't think anyone has even mentioned them. I'll bet half the people here never even heard of them which isn't surprising even though right now they may be the single most important players in the game.

    Complain about this comment

  • 362. At 7:22pm on 16 Sep 2009, publiusdetroiter wrote:

    Ref 355 SaintDominick
    "I think it is amusing when I hear Democrats say that the GOP is a party in disarray, what I see is the opposite, the GOP is well organized in lock step and determined as ever to regain control of Congress and the White House in the near future."

    With a fragile, patched-up economy, dead-locked Congress, an alarmingly divided citizentry hell bent on calling each other names and casting stones at one another like unsupervised school children; will there be a nation to hold elections? Even in two years?

    I think the possibility is well worth consideration. Another significant event could cause a collapse resulting in massive social disorder. Someone noted earlier Abraham Lincoln's "A house divided..." quote. Can this nation, so divided, stand?

    Complain about this comment

  • 363. At 7:23pm on 16 Sep 2009, BienvenueEnLouisiana wrote:

    Boy, Mr. Mardell, you sure have hit on a sensitive subject for the US, and judging by the # of comments, a widely discussed if uncomfortable issue. Well, you asked us, so I'm going to do my best to give you my own answer.

    Truthfully, I think race is always an issue...it's an old scabbed up wound that from time to time gets looked at and picked at.

    Now does the outburst from the S. Carolina Congressman have anything to do with race? No, but many of his critics chose to suggest that it was an issue because of the coincidence of where his district is, his race, and his party membership.

    Does the heckling in the town halls have anything to do with race? Maybe, for some (if you think Obama's an Indonesian Muslim imposter for instance), but for most, no; they are far more likely to be angry and frustrated over the incompetence demonstrated so far by Congress's terribly conceived health care reform bills.

    And lastly, does racism explain the many numbers of people who protested in D.C.? Once again, ya never know exactly what's in an individual's heart, but I have to say that it is far more likely that this is only an issue for the side that is suggesting it's all about racism; you see, those protesters were mostly out there to protest the ever increasing reach of federal power over our lives and property through clever redefining or reinterpretation of the law.

    I think it's pretty obvious to me that what many Democrats and papers are suggesting is blatant race baiting designed to dismiss whole groups of people and their political arguments. In this instance, not in all mind you, asking the question and suggesting that racism might be a factor when there is no evidence beyond conjecture to support that claim is legal defamation. Many people will see the headline, hear the headline, or read the headline, and without going further into the article, assume that the question is either rhetorical or answered with a yes further down the article. That's just the way it is. And the comments by former Pres. Carter (D) haven’t helped the situation either.

    So yes, Mr. Mardell, race is a factor in all this, but it is being used, hijacked if you will, for political gain and intrigue.

    Complain about this comment

  • 364. At 7:34pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    356 you are a racist or are you admitting to being incrediblt uneducated.
    the proportions of blacks in jail. the proportion of traffic stops all suggest that there is more room for sympathy unless you are just a racist.


    to say there is no discrimination or that they should pull their bootstraps in the face of the opposition they get is a tad racist.


    but if you're not then you must be really annoyed at the money given to Israel and the war started to protect them from the suffering they feel they have.

    Complain about this comment

  • 365. At 7:37pm on 16 Sep 2009, bethpa wrote:


    I wonder if there are even greater feelings against the right wing in America than there are against blacks?

    The left now has some campaigns against Glenn Beck and Lou Dobbs...(both tv programs on the right)

    People are signing petitions to stop companies from advertising on Beck and Dobbs' programs

    Josh Silver
    Free Press
    www.freepress.net

    and
    James Rucker
    ColorofChange

    http://colorofchange.org/beck/hold

    ("More than 200,000 of us have stood up and 62 companies have pulled their support."

    "Beck has a First Amendment right to say whatever he wants -- and we're not asking for him to be silenced. But he doesn't have the right to a cable news show funded by millions in corporate ad dollars. News media that have no sense of responsibility to the truth need to be held accountable, and they can be.

    It's up to the public to speak out.")

    www.ColorofChange.org

    Many think these right wing tv programs are stoking hatred and want them off the air and Beck is losing his sponsors. So the campaign is somewhat effective.

    What are the percentages who dislike the right wing? who knows? but the right wingers in the tea parties were NOT likable personalities imo.

    I am somewhat suspicious of this activity that is stoking hatred being done by Republicans. It seems so stupid that I have trouble believing that there are not some other motives also. It might be a diversion to stop any serious discussion and a diversion to hide the crimes against humanity that were done under the Bush administration...by making people who protest look like idiots.


    AndreaNY
    I find that the people who say they "like liberals" really define liberals as what I would call a moderate. There are very few liberals in the mainstream media in the US.

    But the number of liberal tv programs is growing. It started with Keith Olbermann. Now there is the Ed Show

    and the wonderful and brilliant Rachel Maddow.

    And Arianna Huffington is great too.




    Complain about this comment

  • 366. At 7:42pm on 16 Sep 2009, mischievousdoug wrote:

    Demonizing the political opposition using the race card is not what many independents and centrists had in mind when it comes to "hope" and "change". Using this tactic will make a lot of kool-aid drinkers feel superior as they tut-tut about those who disagree with them, but it won't change any minds. Its a "feel-good" gambit for those who use it but it is a long term loser to appeal to a broader audience.
    Are we going to hear this refrain about every contentious issue for the next 3 years? Now where is that off button on the television......

    Complain about this comment

  • 367. At 7:48pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 368. At 7:54pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    361 first paragraph doing well then the oh so reasonable then back to the crap.
    "filthy"
    "other systems no good" they cover up a lot of truth.


    then HMO should be sued (sorry did I hear that right. I thought all the lawyers were to be got rid of)

    Complain about this comment

  • 369. At 7:59pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    it is because racists do not accept other races as equal that they can look at overwhelming evidence that racism exists and say
    "I don't care"

    or are they just admitting they are like MA and hate all but themselves.
    they are in love with themselves.

    Complain about this comment

  • 370. At 8:07pm on 16 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    "I am somewhat suspicious of this activity that is stoking hatred being done by Republicans. It seems so stupid that I have trouble believing that there are not some other motives also. It might be a diversion to stop any serious discussion and a diversion to hide the crimes against humanity that were done under the Bush administration...by making people who protest look like idiots."


    bethpa well said

    personally I have more faith in americans.
    I think that tea parties are full of racists.
    But then I also think the tea party are a minority.
    I think Most americans are appaled by what they see.
    some here Adrienny and others like to forget that.

    they assume most are like them. I assume most are like me.
    Obama is supported by the america people and these that claim to speak for the republicans I think will eventually find they are the ones that are the minority.
    At the moment I'd say there is probably loads of hatred of the tea party people.
    and republicans that stand by racism and pretend it is not there.

    They forget that not all of america is white an that not all whites agree with them.

    I'd have said the well ran dry for the GOP.


    Complain about this comment

  • 371. At 8:19pm on 16 Sep 2009, KeithFromUS wrote:

    How about some real racism...

    http://www.wsbtv.com/news/20940073/detail.html

    People like this should be put away for life!

    Complain about this comment

  • 372. At 8:24pm on 16 Sep 2009, allmymarbles wrote:

    I have had great contact with immigrants from third-world countries, people who have never been to the West. What amazes them is that there are no race riots. People don't scream epithets. Blacks are not openly abused. They look with surprise at blacks and whites working the same jobs, joking together, and even marrying each other.

    Racism in the United States is very subtle and only involves a minority of the population. Our real problem is the media. Racism makes great copy. A small incident is blown up out of proportion, and racism is often ascribed to incidents that are not racist at all. Also, in its own way, the media makes racism acceptable and fires up those who harbor this hatred. That minority becomes more militant because of their perception that they are mainstream. Were it not for the immorality of the media, racism would have a lesser place in our society.

    Complain about this comment

  • 373. At 8:25pm on 16 Sep 2009, KeithFromUS wrote:

    So is President Obama trying to diffuse the argument or is this his sincere belief?

    Because it seems to me that he is pointing out the same things I have several times in this blog.

    "The president does not believe that that criticism comes based on the color of his skin," White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs told reporters.

    "We understand that people have disagreements with some of the decisions that we've made and some of the extraordinary actions that had to be undertaken by both this administration and previous administrations to stabilize our financial system, to ensure viability of our domestic auto industry. I don't think that – the president does not believe that it's based on the color of his skin."

    Reference: [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    Complain about this comment

  • 374. At 8:32pm on 16 Sep 2009, hms_shannon wrote:

    Post 349 MA2

    "My older dog got skunked when she was a puppy"

    Not to hard to achive with you being its owner...

    Complain about this comment

  • 375. At 8:45pm on 16 Sep 2009, allmymarbles wrote:

    365 Bethpa.
    "I wonder if there are even greater feelings against the right wing in America than there are against blacks?"

    The problem with the right wing, which did much to discredit it, was its entanglement with the extreme right-wing religious groups. To many it is the latter that now defines it. Say the word "Republican" and it brings forth visions of people cheering the murder of the abortion doctor, creationism, and the very foolish Sarah Palin. Those of us who sit astride left and right, supporting particular issues, are hesitant to align ourselves with the conservatives because of the direction they have taken.

    Another problem with the right wing right now is that, whatever the left proposes they will oppose, even though they may privately be in agreement. This also discredits it.

    Complain about this comment

  • 376. At 8:52pm on 16 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    Every problem we now have we have had for a while.Except for those bailouts. Those started flowing during the Bush term. No government can fix all problems. I am troubled by some things being suggested lately by people posting on issues. Some have openly voiced a takeover in the US. While still others suggested the same thing with more time sensitive urgency.The intended or implied result would be by description, two world leaders bombing each other because they won't accept a compromise. Hate,fear,mistrust,personal interests,judgmental and identity crisis streaming through the minds and hearts of so many. Preferring to attempt to destroy the very essence of that which has been their only conduit for prosperity. Is America (all of the USA) better off dead? The aggravation and resentment felt by those who will not accept a leader because of his color is really the fear coupled with trepidation about their chances as a non black entity. The belief of exactly what some are proposing to do now. Is the institution of a black person, elected to office by non black voters and black voters alike not a sign with enough significance of good change? The president of the United States of America is a black man, say it ! There is no higher office in American politics higher than this. Yes, there is still racism, bigots and other objectors and persecution among us in the USA. Some will try to steal the importance of this accomplishment, yet there is no legitimate argument to engage in seizing the moment as though it were the last. In the end the proposition of any controversial action may result in eroding the merits of this triumph. I have come across people who have mistreated and criticized me and worst than that. They were white or black or Latino. Some say that 1% of Americans foot the bill for 299 million people here. The richest of people financially cannot by themselves vote in anybody, neither can they remain rich in America without the rest of us. Arguments are subjective, One day you can win one and another day lose one. What I can see of president Obama is that he does not have all the answers and is trying to fix something in spite of many objections. Taking on too many issues which have been in the trailing edge for so long. Too much too fast. That also applies to his preference in recognizing Muslim religion and some people who are Muslim, which he praised. All this within a time when many Americans are still hurt in the wake of 9/11. Common sense should have prevailed as he considered doing that. The equivalent of Japan praising the US subsequent to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It should not be about another civil rights conflict. Mr. Obama is a grown man and a smart man, he can take care of himself and is not hopefully asking for a civil war. Again, winning a debate does not make a person right. How one behaves is for others to say, whether that someone is right or wrong.

    Complain about this comment

  • 377. At 8:55pm on 16 Sep 2009, bethpa wrote:

    Some of us liberals think Rachel Maddow brought down Dick Armey : )

    Dick Armey is a politician from Texas who once had considerable power in the House of Representatives in Washington. Armey is one of the big shots who has been backing these health care protests with his organization Freedom Works

    Little Rachel Maddow uncovered his connection to the protests on her tv show and after that exposure Armey resigned from DLA Piper law firm.

    Now thats good journalism and you can read about it here:

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/26128.html

    “The fact that Dick Armey and FreedomWorks are standing alongside regular Joes like Rick Scott to lead the charge against health care reform could be just a coincidence. Or it could be a stark reminder of who we're dealing with here. Who is actively organizing the campaign against health care reform? Scaring real Americans with increasingly paranoid and kooky lies about health care and then providing a script for how to express that fear.” Rachel Maddow quote

    You might be able to see Rachel here on Youtube:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f69HsA8Ew_o

    Holy Mackerel : )

    Complain about this comment

  • 378. At 8:57pm on 16 Sep 2009, TheFirstRalph wrote:

    Perhaps the US will finally become truly post racial when people can criticise a black politician without being called racists, and when the media stop trying to give credence to the warped views of failed presidents. Thinking that people protesting against Obama are racists says a lot more about you than it does the protesters.

    Complain about this comment

  • 379. At 9:13pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    lostallyourmarbles

    Well what do you know, finally you posted something (#372) I can agree with. Actually the basic premise of the debate here is absurd. Anyone who knows the American system knows that as the saying goes; Congress proposes, the President disposes. The bill will be forged in Congress. Initially partly along the president's lines of thinking but also along the lines of the Democratic leadership's thinking. It will be debated, amended, then if passed by both houses, the two different versions will have to go to reconciliation and only then would the President be given the option of an up or down decision of whether or not to sign it into law. If he vetoes it, Congress could override it into law anyway. So the debate over the health care issue really has nothing directly to do with President Obama personally, it's merely on his agenda to push Congress to come up with a bill.

    Been to Iran lately? Been in touch with the "Princess of P" lately? No postings from here since a long time ago. Wonder if she shot her mouth off in Teheran the way she did here. Seemed to me like she was the kind who would. Only there you don't get your posting deleted, you can get your liberty deleted or even your life deleted.

    Ukawailee, how low can a man get to be abusive about another man's dog? Even for you that is a new low. It took about 6 months for the stink to finally go away. We tried everything anyone suggested from baking soda to tomato juice. Trips to Petco for professional shampoos, nothing worked except time.

    Complain about this comment

  • 380. At 9:25pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    OMG, I'd better look in the mirror and check for spots...and take my temperature to see if I have a fever. Two postings in a row I agree with lostallhermarbles (#375). Have I gone soft in the head? Am I slipping? Or just maybe lostallhermarbles went for a trip to the third world and got in touch with reality for a change. Different world out there than the one you thought existed and posted about in the past lost? Very different.

    Complain about this comment

  • 381. At 9:31pm on 16 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    If you believe that having a good education is not going to be helpful to you then you may as well quit while you are in the 7th grade. That argument is elementary.
    If you don’t like social security fine, when you get older decline it,
    Also get a good job along with your 7th grade education and support them or pull the plug. I have news for you, How could you want me to pay for something you won’t. I haven’t heard you defend acorn and its 40 thieves. It is easy for some to deny Jesus because then they there is nothing from morally obstructing them when they commit blasphemy. There is a harsh judge and judgment but it is only used by Non believers and mostly Jihads which I fear You favor.
    In America white people are afraid to even use the word black for fear of being chastised at the very least. Yet some people use the word white as though it was contagious and virulent. Start worrying about all those congressmen, those racist non conforming to Obama brutes. Are they all racist too? Is Michael Steele racist? Ohh you don’t know Michael Steele.

    What would Martin Luther King say?


    MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    The notion of "tort reform" is a code phrase for legalizing medical malpractice. It would violate one of Americans' most basic rights, the right to sue for damages when you are injured by the incompetence of others.

    Go ahead fluffy, say you disagree,

    From reading your responses and your lack of comprehension of the content It seems to me you qualify for social security.

    Did you see the Obama speech about schools and how they should eat right exercise and learn how to spell health care. What was not in that one was where he wanted them to write reports on how every student could help Obama Obama Obama.

    The other day someone showed me a pic of Obama with a small mustache and a SS uniform and I told the person that that was a depiction which did not do justice to Obama.
    And he told me it is still a free country.

    Complain about this comment

  • 382. At 9:43pm on 16 Sep 2009, bethpa wrote:

    A list of race riots by country

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_race_riots

    Imo some race riots are not listed. And some might be considered religious riots in some other nations...but may in fact be based upon the race of the people in competing religions.

    I remember when the Hutus and Tutsi went to war in Rwanda, Africa. Somehow they saw themselves as genetically different enough to want to kill one another and it ended with genocide.

    Probably many wars have been based in racial prejudices.

    Imo the US is moving towards a nation that will not have social distinctions based upon race...

    Complain about this comment

  • 383. At 9:46pm on 16 Sep 2009, jones1987 wrote:

    It seems tacitly absurd to assign racism toward individuals who have a problem with the proposed healthcare bill; or, for that matter, a problem with any or all of Mr. Obama's polciies. Being conservative (not in favor of Government-run programs)and Republican (not in favor of Democrats in general, as a rule) does NOT equal racism. Both of these reasons for being generally opposed to the Mr. Obama's policies and issues have nothing to do with race, per se.

    If there are members of these camps who are racist I propose it to be more coincidental, or correlative, rather than causational.

    Complain about this comment

  • 384. At 9:48pm on 16 Sep 2009, jones1987 wrote:

    To THEFIRSTRALPH in 378?:

    Very well and succinctly put.

    Complain about this comment

  • 385. At 9:49pm on 16 Sep 2009, hms_shannon wrote:

    379 MA2

    Yea you are right,I apologise,was not funny.But if you got skunked would that be a black&white issue?.

    Complain about this comment

  • 386. At 9:52pm on 16 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    359. At 6:43pm on 16 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    "At least I like liberals."

    I think you misunderstand (or misunderstimate?) me. I like liberals too. I like socialists beter.

    I like Ian M Banks:

    "Suppose there is some sort of mix of genes that predisposes us to racism, sexism, homophobia, antisemitism, Islamophobia, Romaphobia. or whatever the latest grisly right-wing xenophobic hate fashion is-- I think we'd need to knock out those genes to have a chance of being remotely decent enough to achieve Culture-like levels of civilisation. . .I'd like to think we could; one can't despair and one has to assume that a better society is possible."

    That is the kind of gene therapy money ought to be being spent on, isn't it? Just don't bother looking at my genome. There are, alas, innumerable better candidates those genes can be isolated from.

    I feel, just now, shall we say, alienated? And so, goodnight.

    Complain about this comment

  • 387. At 10:08pm on 16 Sep 2009, Reuben wrote:

    Health care reform is badly needed; I’m not against healthcare reform. Unfortunately, the current versions of the health care bill are recipes for disaster.

    Bad law is bad law no matter what the title. Here we have a bill stuffed full of manure, that would be struck down on it's first day in court. And just because it's called 'Puppies and babies' means you are against puppies and babies?. That's the problem with our sound-bite news. They can spin anything any way they like.

    Our problem isn't the race of the president pushing the bill; he's not writing the bill, it's the idiots writing it.

    Replace this Congress & we will see a better product. Get a congress that can see all the causes to the problems with health care in America, then write a bill that deserves more than expletives, and we’ll be glad to celebrate with the president when he’s finally be able to deliver on at least one of his campaign promises.

    It will have to wait until the November 2010 elections

    Complain about this comment

  • 388. At 10:31pm on 16 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 389. At 10:35pm on 16 Sep 2009, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    # 309 MagicKirin wrote:

    "Keeping with your usual insults like a moonbat.

    Well you are assuming that he will be found guilty. Most Americans agree with Cheney as opposed to appeasers like Jimmy Carter, a man who does belong in jail for giving comfort to the enemy"

    I would be delighted to hear your exact evidence for the statement "Most Americans agree with Cheney" - if any. I was under the impression that, according to any polling data I have seen, he was Vice President to one of the most unpopular Presidents since polling began, yet managed [according to those same polls] to be still more unpopular than GWB.

    And Magic, I realise that in your Special Dictionary, under 'evidence', it says 'See MagicKirin, prejudices of'. It's just that that isn't what the word means in the real world.

    Complain about this comment

  • 390. At 10:35pm on 16 Sep 2009, faeyth wrote:

    The question of racism is really about Baby Boomers.Not younger generations although some are,most are 50 plus like the guy who was shooting at the Holocaust Museum.The same is true if you flip the coin Baby Boomers who are liberal think younger generations still need Affirmative Action and public schools instead of charters,etc....Baby Boomers are still having a culture war the media picks this up and that is what the news has come down to 24/7(that's why Xers have THE DAILY SHOW,THEY THINK Boomers are stupid.The ongoing culture war of the Boomers.the 60's were hard but they're over let your kids and grand kids move on.We are ready to deal with this countries real problems Unemployment.decaying cities roads bridges train tracks,Poor education,bad Banking regulations,Loop hole for commodities like gas,oil,heat oil,etc over bloated military for a cold war that is over..And the worst of all you are slowing down technological advancement I want faster internet like JAPAN or EUROPE and DVD's,CD's are out dated.Older Gen-Xers are going to punish you seriously the way my older siblings and their friends in there 40's talk man you really have screwed them over.The Onion(fake news) has an article THE LONG AWAITED BOOMER DIE-OFF TO BEGIN SOON.And if the economy isn't fixed soon they're(libertarians are all in their early 40's) going to cut your S.S. benefits and Medicare when they get to Congress in 1o-15 yrs.they are 2/3 your size do you really think they can afford to take care of you financially as well as children and Millennials don't have jobs because you won't retire.You should have waited until your Generation retired to start out sourcing ,now your getting retrained to do jobs that should go to your kids ,the jobs and training ,while making China and US corporations Rich and the rest of poorer.I mean why didn't you at least protect your own jobs until you retired and made sure their was money in S.S. for when you retired but Noooo let's give rich people tax breaks and start wars because we can't agree on Abortion,Welfare,etc..Ridiculous Why can't we just reform health care without talk of racism,abortion,etc..

    Complain about this comment

  • 391. At 10:47pm on 16 Sep 2009, GH1618 wrote:

    GreySquirrel1867 (#387), that's a sweeping condemnation which warrants at least a couple of specific examples from the bill. And you haven't been precise about which bill you mean. Is it the Senator Baucus bill which just came out today or the earlier House bill?

    This sounds to me like merely a hope for a Republican Congress in the next session and a Republican health care bill. If that's your bias, why not just say so?

    Complain about this comment

  • 392. At 10:47pm on 16 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    bethpa, All the people you mentioned are not racist or good models or bad models, they have some things in common all but maybe Denzel date white chicks.

    Complain about this comment

  • 393. At 10:52pm on 16 Sep 2009, Reuben wrote:

    In the 70’s and early 80’s my mother had a lot to say about a certain peanut farmer from Georgia, and none of it was nice. I haven’t found much reason to disagree with her on him. He’s the same very flawed person, just add senility.

    It’s not fair to compare Obama to that guy, though. Obama doesn’t have much to work with. He was handed a bag of manure that was set on fire. The bag is still on fire and full.
    His problem is trying to fix it all at once.

    Complain about this comment

  • 394. At 10:53pm on 16 Sep 2009, allmymarbles wrote:

    387, GreySquirrel.
    "Our problem isn't the race of the president pushing the bill; he's not writing the bill, it's the idiots writing it. Replace this Congress & we will see a better product. Get a congress that can see all the causes to the problems with health care in America, then write a bill that deserves more than expletives, and we’ll be glad to celebrate with the president when he’s finally be able to deliver on at least one of his campaign promises."

    That's right. It is not Obama's bill, it is Congress' bill. But how can we expect a good health care bill from Congress when its members are in the pay of the pharmaceutical industry and the health insurers? Looks like a lose-lose situation

    Complain about this comment

  • 395. At 10:59pm on 16 Sep 2009, allmymarbles wrote:

    388, ranter.
    "I said Muslims consider 'Jesus less than a prophet' and not that Muslims do consider Jesus a prophet."

    I am having a problem with the English language. How can someone "be less than a prophet" and still be a "prophet"?

    Complain about this comment

  • 396. At 11:01pm on 16 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    Saintdominick,I would not want to be wrong on those issues you so dismiss after all you life may depend on one man. Taking into account no one is infallible. With so many issues on the circuit, the tight hug of even a very large man will loosen when trying to hug too much. About two weeks ago one radio talk show host was endangering Obama's proximity tolerance and had the secret squirells go fetch that little acorn nut. He had to apologize I think he may have and the next week he was back on the same agenda. So much for free speech.

    Complain about this comment

  • 397. At 11:02pm on 16 Sep 2009, Reuben wrote:

    fayth (390): thank you, now we can add age discrimination to the list bigotries here.

    Complain about this comment

  • 398. At 11:06pm on 16 Sep 2009, Reuben wrote:

    GH1618 (391):

    I was worried that I was being too subtle,
    but you got the point, right away. ;-)

    Complain about this comment

  • 399. At 11:09pm on 16 Sep 2009, GH1618 wrote:

    The biases of GreySquirrel1867 are pretty clear in post #393. Forget the remarks about former president Carter; I'll stipulate that he was a weak president and I won't defend (or attack) his more recent endeavors. As for the remark about Obama, however, how about making some particular charge to make it clear what your complaint is?

    Without any specifics, this is merely grousing about having lost the election.

    Complain about this comment

  • 400. At 11:09pm on 16 Sep 2009, Reuben wrote:

    allmymarbles: you don't think the current congress don't have their own share of undue influences from lobbyists?

    Complain about this comment

  • 401. At 11:19pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    349. At 6:18pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    Simple Simian;

    Oh you still think I am black?

    Do you call your black neighbours monkees too?

    "Well that is odd. You repeatedly tell us how you found a bullfight and the attendant butchery "interesting"."

    "What I found interesting was watching the crowd."


    Oh sure I beleive you. You just went to watch the crowd. How many people are arrested by the police with that excuse.


    "Especially that Catholic priest eating his ice cream enjoying every minute. I told you I was rooting for the bull. OK, I admit that after just one bullfight I was so revolted by it I ran out the exit to the nearest cafe and chugged an entire pitcher of sangria."


    Oh it wasn't "interesting" then? Sorry your inability to use English is the problem.

    Revolting is not a synonym for "interesting".


    SO lets get this straight, you went to a bullfight "just to see the crowd" and were surprised to see a bull being killed.

    Again yeah right is the answer to that.

    Care to tell us what you were expecting to see? A puppet show?

    I have had a number of chances to see a Corrida, but have always refused - I don't like giving money to animal torturers.

    Pity you are not so scrupulous.

    "When I got back to my apartment in France and told the bread baker whom I spoke with every day, she told me it must have been a bad matador. Europeans must be immune to that sort of thing."


    But it was the American who went along wasn't it? Not the "bread baker" who was obviously wondering why a moron would go to a bullfight if they were upset at the fate of the bull.

    Many of the rest of us have the same concern.

    Did she laugh when you said you went to "see the crowd".


    "I think in reality you are probably not permitted to keep animals."

    According to the local laws, I am not allowed to have more than five dogs at one time. I suppose that is to be certain that dog breeders do not occupy property zoned as residential. According to the by-laws of my subdivision, I cannot have a horse. There are a lot of horses in the area though as well as many cows, sheep, even buffalo on some local farms. There are herds of deer which run freely because there are no fences (except around swimming pools where they are required and around paddocks where people own horses.) Most I've seen in my yard at any one time were 11 but I counted 41 once run across my neighbor's back yard. The entire region is overrun with deer. Some areas (saw one in a backyard in Montclair) also have bears. So far none in my area. Also have red tailed hawks who soar all day riding the thermals looking for field mice and vols. Lots of crows, occasional turkey vultures, wild turkeys, once in a while a skunk (my older dog got skunked when she was a puppy) and other wildlife typical of rural areas. I'd rather live among these animals than the two legged kind which live almost on top of one another in the crowded cities and suburbs. All harmless to humans...so long as your car doesn't accidentally hit a deer."


    Sorry what blather is this? Who cares about buffaloes and hawks? We are talking about torturing animals.

    Though it does sound rather pitiful. In my area the flora and fauna are unique and have been so for about 6 million years. Echidnas, Pademelons, numbats, sugar gliders, wedge tailed eagles etc


    "SO you do you find torture "interesting" (fascinating euphenism)as well? What about if white people are victims of it?"

    We are. Every time I hear a cockney accent. Henry Higgins felt the same way."

    We are what? Referring to ourselves in the plural? Incoherence

    "Including those Americans you told us are fighting as terrorists in Somalia? I am researching these now."

    The only way to be sure of your facts is to go out into the field and view it first hand. Can't wait for your reports when you get back....if you get back."

    American Jihadists eh. How embarrasing for you. Not such a cohesive country after all!
    e

    Complain about this comment

  • 402. At 11:19pm on 16 Sep 2009, GH1618 wrote:

    The Baucus Proposal is an attempt to produce a bipartisan compromise. Senator Baucus is a moderate Democrat from a Republican state. Republicans these days, however, are not much interested in bipartisanship. If the Baucus proposal is not acceptable to someone with Republican sensibilities (taking into account that the Republicans lost the election and are not, therefore, entitled to dictate the solution), I would like to know why, with specificity.

    Complain about this comment

  • 403. At 11:19pm on 16 Sep 2009, Reuben wrote:

    When Obama signs everything that comes across his desk, congress doesn’t have much of an incentive to present him with better bills. He has veto power that should be used.

    The balance in our system of check’s and balances needs to be restored to force the government to work right. Obama needs Republicans; he just doesn’t know it yet. When the current congress gets replaced, the quality of the bills going across his desk will improve.

    The presidents of other countries have dismissed legislative bodies like our congress for their incompetence. Thankfully we live in a democracy where are our coups are made in the ballot box and not at the point of a gun.

    One protest sign I read goes right to the point:
    "You can't fix stupid, but you can vote it out."

    Complain about this comment

  • 404. At 11:21pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    366. At 7:42pm on 16 Sep 2009, mischievousdoug wrote:
    Demonizing the political opposition using the race card is not what many independents and centrists had in mind when it comes to "hope" and "change". Using this tactic will make a lot of kool-aid drinkers feel superior as they tut-tut about those who disagree with them, but it won't change any minds. Its a "feel-good" gambit for those who use it but it is a long term loser to appeal to a broader audience.
    Are we going to hear this refrain about every contentious issue for the next 3 years? Now where is that off button on the television......"


    Dey should stop complainin and simply listen to de white folks who always nose best.

    Yes suh!

    Complain about this comment

  • 405. At 11:22pm on 16 Sep 2009, allmymarbles wrote:

    400, GreySquirrel.

    I thought I was saying that they did. These were my words: "But how can we expect a good health care bill from Congress when its members are in the pay of the pharmaceutical industry and the health insurers?"

    Complain about this comment

  • 406. At 11:24pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    378. At 8:57pm on 16 Sep 2009, TheFirstRalph wrote:
    Perhaps the US will finally become truly post racial when people can criticise a black politician without being called racists, and when the media stop trying to give credence to the warped views of failed presidents. Thinking that people protesting against Obama are racists says a lot more about you than it does the protesters."


    Alternatively people can stop being rascist - that might help too eh.

    Complain about this comment

  • 407. At 11:30pm on 16 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    bethpa: "I find that the people who say they "like liberals" really define liberals as what I would call a moderate. There are very few liberals in the mainstream media in the US."

    ********************

    I wouldn't know about the media. I have many liberal friends.

    I had to chuckle about your description of Maddow's "fine investigative reporting." People like FoxNews' fine investigative reporting, too. And speaking of good investigative reporting, that young couple who posed as a pimp and prostitute in the ACORN office would be congratulated for their reporting -- if they weren't Republicans and hadn't given the exclusive to FoxNews.

    I'm surprised you don't see that you're really not so different from the haters on the right. What's the difference between hating a particular race and hating a politically like-minded group in 2009? White male Republicans, for example.

    Complain about this comment

  • 408. At 11:34pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    . At 9:13pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    lostallyourmarbles

    "Well what do you know, finally you posted something (#372) I can agree with. Actually the basic premise of the debate here is absurd. Anyone who knows the American system knows that as the saying goes; Congress proposes, the President disposes. The bill will be forged in Congress. Initially partly along the president's lines of thinking but also along the lines of the Democratic leadership's thinking. It will be debated, amended, then if passed by both houses, the two different versions will have to go to reconciliation and only then would the President be given the option of an up or down decision of whether or not to sign it into law. If he vetoes it, Congress could override it into law anyway. So the debate over the health care issue really has nothing directly to do with President Obama personally, it's merely on his agenda to push Congress to come up with a bill."


    What a load of irrelevant half digested guff from Mad Marcus. He has read Dick and Jane go to Congress.

    Has anyone suggested that this bill would be personally drafted by the President and personally enacted into law?

    However it does highlight the personal attacks on the President are racially based, and not based on sense.

    As are the attacks on Acorn which have now been revealed to be part of a sinister far-right coordinated campaign.

    "Been to Iran lately? Been in touch with the "Princess of P" lately? No postings from here since a long time ago. Wonder if she shot her mouth off in Teheran the way she did here. Seemed to me like she was the kind who would. Only there you don't get your posting deleted, you can get your liberty deleted or even your life deleted."

    Iran executes fewer black people than the US though eh.

    WHo is that blackman they have failed to slaughter in Ohio after an hour, one hour, of trying to find a vein?

    Even the Chinese don't stop to ripping someone's arm open to kill them, and they are hardly merciful.

    "Ukawailee, how low can a man get to be abusive about another man's dog? Even for you that is a new low. It took about 6 months for the stink to finally go away. We tried everything anyone suggested from baking soda to tomato juice. Trips to Petco for professional shampoos, nothing worked except time. "


    Then stop your dog torturing the local wildlife.



    Complain about this comment

  • 409. At 11:36pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    387. At 10:08pm on 16 Sep 2009, GreySquirrel1867 wrote:
    Health care reform is badly needed; I’m not against healthcare reform. Unfortunately, the current versions of the health care bill are recipes for disaster.

    Bad law is bad law no matter what the title. Here we have a bill stuffed full of manure, that would be struck down on it's first day in court. And just because it's called 'Puppies and babies' means you are against puppies and babies?. That's the problem with our sound-bite news. They can spin anything any way they like.

    Our problem isn't the race of the president pushing the bill; he's not writing the bill, it's the idiots writing it.

    Replace this Congress & we will see a better product. Get a congress that can see all the causes to the problems with health care in America, then write a bill that deserves more than expletives, and we’ll be glad to celebrate with the president when he’s finally be able to deliver on at least one of his campaign promises.

    It will have to wait until the November 2010 elections"

    Really? Of course those opposing gthe Bill could put an alternative and viable suggestion.

    Instead of attacking the president in such personal terms.

    But it isn't the Bill that is the central issue with the right. It is the sense that the Whitehouse has been usurped from its natural owners.

    Complain about this comment

  • 410. At 11:38pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 411. At 11:44pm on 16 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    Allmymarbles:

    When I wrote what you read, that Muslims consider Jesus less than a prophet, It was a generous dispute I I eluded to. They considered him a regular person and not a true prophet. They considered Elijah,Mud hammed as prophet, the discussion was about what I wrote and what I was quoted as having written. It is about changing someones sentences to reflect something other than what they originally wrote, changing its meaning and trying to make the the witter appear to be meaning something else, My other post was removed in which I refer to this because, I suspect there was a phrase in which I offer my comment and understanding to Jon_Keeskop.
    dankie.

    Complain about this comment

  • 412. At 11:47pm on 16 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    320. At 4:58pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    Simple Simian

    "Nothing to do with Britain."

    So you think this is just a shooting gallery where Brits can take pot shots at America? You really resent it when Americans shoot back. Especially when they take deadly aim and hit the bullseye. Tough."


    The only bullseye you hit mate is in the glass. Here's a tip if you want ot "defend" America you had better try to like Americans, of all colours, not just your own.

    It would also help to learn some American history.

    Your our Israelie appeaser who turns out not to like jews very much.

    Still its a laugh.

    "Can you name even one part of the world where racist European empires did not enslave and loot native peoples at one time or another...and then had the audacity to seen missionaries to "Christianize" them so their souls could be saved? "

    Nevada Colorado, Washington, Indiana, Utah

    Shall I go on or is it too embarrasing? Dakota, Montana, Kentucky etc

    See what I mean you're not up to the task old son stick to the bullseyes.

    That sort of logic is why you never became seriously rich.

    "How do you define "seriously rich?" I'm not dead yet. There's still time and plenty of piss and vinegar in me to make even more. Once I reach what I consider sufficient for my needs, I would not waste any further time or effort in my life pursuing money. It is the least interesting thing to think about in life. I feel no sympathy for those who had far more than they could possibly ever use and then lost it all trying greedily to get even more."

    So you still work? Not rich at all then.



    Complain about this comment

  • 413. At 11:48pm on 16 Sep 2009, Reuben wrote:

    Yes more than 50 percent of American voters were wrong last year, and now they are starting to realize that they made a huge mistake by voting for the most liberal admistration, EVER.

    They can't undo the damage they have done to our administration until 2012, but they have an oportunity to balance it out in 2010. Those of us who are saying I told you so, can help point the way.

    Complain about this comment

  • 414. At 11:48pm on 16 Sep 2009, Reuben wrote:

    Carter should have stayed at home and pretended to watch the whole thing on television while he fell asleep. But he didn’t do that.

    Instead, He came out to support of Obama and that drew comparisons between his failed Presidency, and Obama’s administration.

    Definitely not a good idea on his part, but then again he was a submariner, and submariners are a loony lot.

    Complain about this comment

  • 415. At 11:50pm on 16 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    The problem with younger regular people is they do not think that future health care will apply to them. For the un regular ones they only hope it will.

    Complain about this comment

  • 416. At 11:56pm on 16 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 417. At 00:02am on 17 Sep 2009, Reuben wrote:

    Ranter22:

    Your endless rants to marcus have me confused; are you arguing with him, or yourself?

    Complain about this comment

  • 418. At 00:04am on 17 Sep 2009, Reuben wrote:

    Simon:

    The Republicans have been proposing alternatives from the start, they've have been shut out of all discussion by the majority party.

    This blue dog you were talking about is news to me. Fascinating, I will have to read more about it. Maybe he will be the second Democrat to ever get my support.

    Complain about this comment

  • 419. At 00:06am on 17 Sep 2009, YaleRed wrote:

    Was racism a factor in this outburst? Impossible to tell; though I'd love to hear Mr. Wilson interviewed on the subject with a nice close up camera and Jeremy Paxman in the driving seat. Racism is certainly a factor in some people's take on Obama; though again, it's difficult to put a percentage on it with any confidence. It's a hidden crime.

    Another quite likely scenario - especially now that Ex-Pres Jimmy Carter has weighed in - is that this is a clever tactical move by Democrats to get their opponents on the back foot ahead of the upcoming healthcare debate. All through the election campaign the press and Republicans alike seemed to be tempering their criticism lest they were perceived as racist. Even John Stewart was lost for words. Springing the trap right now is perfect timing: Mr. Wilson's previous position, working for Strom Thurmond, hints strongly at a history of racism; and it's right ahead of a make-or-break debate on healthcare. The planets were all aligned.

    Even as the Whitehouse denies it and plays it down, you can't un-say it. And that's enough to plant it in the public consciousness. Just as Republicans (with a little help from Fox News) spread the whole Osama-Obama thing and then officially denied it. Touché.

    Playing to your strengths and to your opponent's weaknesses is certainly a well proven tactic. If this is "meta-racism" at play, it's a bold move. And perhaps a justified move: If it helps counter the negative affect that racism will no doubt play in the healthcare debate and beyond, then it simply levels the playing field.

    It remains a sad indictment on America in the 21st century in either case. That such tactics are necessary to counter an undercurrent of racism; or that elected politicians pass judgment based on bigoted views rather than on merit.

    Complain about this comment

  • 420. At 00:14am on 17 Sep 2009, Reuben wrote:

    I don't like health care the way it is now, and if the government takes it over, once the bureaucracy will takes everything will get worse. I might go to the doctor if I have a bullet hole in me, but other wise I’ll trust my own judgment and not some quack pushing the pharmaceutical companies’ poisons. Oh, wait… that’s already happening.

    You guys are right: a bigger government is just what we need to solve all our problems.

    Complain about this comment

  • 421. At 00:18am on 17 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    Jan_Keeskop wrote:
    I would respect anyone who is in direct disagreement with me.
    I would calmly listen to almost any point of view short of sacrilege.

    However you do me a great disservice when my words are taken out of context.

    I said Muslims consider ' Jesus less than a prophet' and not that Muslims do consider Jesus a prophet.

    I am surprised at you Jon_keeskop, No one but you has responded to my signature at the bottom of my post so I know you have knowledge. And not because of that but because of the way you disseminate other blogs. Taking it to that point is not right, It was not the same, and you know that.

    Complain about this comment

  • 422. At 00:28am on 17 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    GreySquirrel1867 wrote:

    They are not for Marcus, or against
    Trying to find the hit and run and the mods cut my post, My fault I wrote not in English.

    Complain about this comment

  • 423. At 00:29am on 17 Sep 2009, turningblueandgrey wrote:

    A few parting thoughts on this topic:

    Race is still a factor in America, in subconscious and subtle ways. Malcolm Gladwell's "Blink" provides the best discussion of this I've read lately, as part of a much broader review of how we think and react (his book covers far more topics than ingrained bias such as racism).

    While race is not the main factor in the loud and abusive 'debates', and I am glad the President responded in opposition to Carter's comments, race does seem to motivate some people as one of the reasons to illegitimize Obama's election and his programs.

    I think the main reasons for that approach, with some people almost violently attacking the President and the Democrats (and sometimes the moderate Republicans) rather than debating the issues, is frustration that their favorite (McCain or local candidates) did not win, as if the outcome was therefore unfair, leading to an overblown loyal fan response booing the umpire.

    Even more, the uproar stems from fears based on a wide gamut of rumors and innuendoes that have taken the place of a good understandable summary of what's really in the *proposed* legislation that is still being revised in Congress. Vested and powerful interests are helping sow the 'talking points' against change. For more understanding of how cable news, broadcasting "in-depth' repetitive coverage of rumors 24/7, helps feed such fears and stifle calmer thought or insight, read Gavin deBecker's "Fear Less".

    I think it is a very narrow and self-serving interpretation of the Constitution to say "there is nothing in there about health care". Suppporting the legislative process, rather than subverting it, is what the founders intended, as far as I can tell. Working to make America better is not un-American, nor is loving and being proud of America yet admitting there are things that we should improve. This last thought leads to another reason for the vitriol - the absolute certainty expressed by so many that the other side is all bad, or is solely to blame for events with a long and complex history, and the exaggeration of how bad and one-sided they are.

    Maybe my science backgrounds makes me say "I think" or "I'm pretty sure" more often than "I know!", keeping certainty reserved for a subset of my decisions and discussions (with my kids behavior among the absolute and certain areas!). Politics falls into the less certain realm where compromise is often part of the means to a noble and certainly better end. McCain-Kennedy or McCain-Feingold bring up such a picture of bipartisan compromise to reach a better goal. The health care/insurance reform debate, as it has degenerated, does not.

    Complain about this comment

  • 424. At 00:34am on 17 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 425. At 00:37am on 17 Sep 2009, Martin wrote:

    Mark, you asked the question is the "Pope Catholic"? There is not a country in the world that does not exhibit racism. It is human nature to be racist. I am white and British working in the US and I experience it against me but I have seen it played out far worse to a black person. There are people who will not or cannot tolerate OB simply because he is black. I thought that Hilary Clinton would be elected because OB is black. But given the choice between a woman and a man as president, the man was chosen. There goes another prejudice. It is a shame he is black but then you can't have everything can you.

    Complain about this comment

  • 426. At 00:39am on 17 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    Someone asked Obama about health care and why not for congress and the entire 535 or so in Washington. The question was an Honest one and he replied that if they wanted that health care it would be up to them. That did not sound like an endorsement. Ted K. with about 100 million dollars in assets, lived and died with the very best care rich money can buy. It is too bad that M.J. had to end up dead as a consequence of bad doctor practice. So in effect This proposal for universal care is not socialist because the rich do not have to use it. All they are going to require is that they have Health care and are not a constant burden to the economy. Not while still alive anyway.

    Complain about this comment

  • 427. At 00:48am on 17 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    407. At 11:30pm on 16 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:
    bethpa: "I find that the people who say they "like liberals" really define liberals as what I would call a moderate. There are very few liberals in the mainstream media in the US."

    ********************

    I wouldn't know about the media. I have many liberal friends.

    I had to chuckle about your description of Maddow's "fine investigative reporting." People like FoxNews' fine investigative reporting, too. And speaking of good investigative reporting, that young couple who posed as a pimp and prostitute in the ACORN office would be congratulated for their reporting -- if they weren't Republicans and hadn't given the exclusive to FoxNews. "


    And if they hadn't trailed around different Acorn offices trying to entrap (and failing for the most part) for party political purposes.

    What sort of person undertakes that sort of activity? Repeatedly posing as a prostitute? And generaly failing.

    But we will no doubt see some Republican right wing howlers as it nears election time.

    The Obama team will have a nice stack of right wing rascist rants ready to release when the time comes. Mr Wilson has already booked his place.

    "I'm surprised you don't see that you're really not so different from the haters on the right. What's the difference between hating a particular race and hating a politically like-minded group in 2009? White male Republicans, for example. "


    How can one explain this? Ok Lets try. Mr Obama cannot actually change his skin colour, neither can his wife or children.

    But he can change his political affiliation, as can Republicans.

    Republicans are being criticised for thier bigoted, extreme beliefs - they can and should change them.

    The second point is to do with power. Rascism is essentially about power. Few jews, blacks, gays etc would be concerned about bigotry it the bigots have no authority.

    But in the US (not only the US to be fair) some of these people do have authority, in the media, in the economy and in the government.

    It may not matter so much if an aged woman at the end of her life delivers a rascist tirade.

    It matters more if this woman is young and in Congress or HR.

    Complain about this comment

  • 428. At 01:10am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    372 marbles . i agree with much of that.
    the press especially has had a great role in the baiting and acceptance. it is a good thing the president is a better diplomat than the likes of me.

    Complain about this comment

  • 429. At 01:12am on 17 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 430. At 01:14am on 17 Sep 2009, chronophobe wrote:

    re: 313 AndreainNY "WOW is right. The same argument was made in defense of women who voted for Hillary because she was a woman.

    Kind of takes some getting used to, the idea that an aggrieved party cannot really be racist or sexist."


    Isn't a racist someone who believes in a hierarchy of races, and a sexist someone who believes in a hierarchy of gender? How does simply identifying with someone of your own race or gender make you racist or sexist?

    Now if women voting for Hillary were doing so because they believed that women are naturally, or supernaturally, perhaps, better suited than men to hold positions of power, that would indeed be sexist.

    Similarly for Obama, if people of colour voted for him because they believed that the qualities of his race as such (and not his personal qualities arising out of his his experiences as a man of colour in America) made him a better candidate, that would be racism.

    But seriously, how widespread do you think notions of female, or black, supremacy really are? The notion of male, and particularly white male, supremacy, however, has a long and vital history in all of Western Civilization. Just because few people today feel able to 'spit it out,' doesn't mean it has disappeared. Notions of racial and gender hierarchies (with white men at the top) are real and culturally pervasive.

    Complain about this comment

  • 431. At 01:17am on 17 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    427. Simon21: "Republicans are being criticised for thier bigoted, extreme beliefs - they can and should change them."

    ******************

    I don't think you get it. No one really wants to hear someone who's bigoted and extremist himself lecture him about his bigoted, extremist views.



    Complain about this comment

  • 432. At 01:19am on 17 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    Bluejay:

    Malcolm, a relatively young, bright and gifted writer. The objects which are seen are always a different shade, through the eyes of whomever is looking. If I mention Blue and we both Imagine blue, what are the chances that we see the same hue,contrast, etc.
    Subtle changes or perception and also play out. To admit to racist behavior is probably not a desire to want to be that way. Overcoming some traits requires constant exposure, building concepts and knowing Humanity is our common denominator. One good example of feeling equal is during a combat situation and feeling just as mortal as everyone else, regardless of what country or village anyone hails from.
    Denying personal racial motivation is not necessarily true or false. Accepting it does not make it proper. Taking responsibility is a good start when a genuine olive branch is extended.
    If we endeavor to even out our past injustices to the point of endless hatred when do we accept ourselves as merciful.

    Complain about this comment

  • 433. At 01:21am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    ranter 376

    you are the only one going on about Obama meeting muslims. sorry you had me believing your well reasoned start to that post but at that point you lost it.

    Sorry but the president meeting muslims is no big deal. the bigger deal is that some like you would say that the president meeting a muslim is wrong.
    The last pope must have been really off his rocker when he was all buddies with the other religions.

    Again you try to suggest it is only others asking for war when they warn that it looks like others want one.But you keep saying 'i hope he's not looking for a war" and going on about muslims being allowed in the white house.

    Complain about this comment

  • 434. At 01:23am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    Ukawailee, how low can a man get to be abusive about another man's dog? Even for you that is a new low.


    MArcus ,marcus.
    UKwales might remind you that you attacked jacksforge incessantly because he stayed in the country to look after his pet.

    There are many examples of you stooping to lows. so don't get high and mighty about it.

    Complain about this comment

  • 435. At 01:37am on 17 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    430. chronophobe: "re: 313 AndreainNY "WOW is right. The same argument was made in defense of women who voted for Hillary because she was a woman.

    Kind of takes some getting used to, the idea that an aggrieved party cannot really be racist or sexist."

    Isn't a racist someone who believes in a hierarchy of races, and a sexist someone who believes in a hierarchy of gender? How does simply identifying with someone of your own race or gender make you racist or sexist?

    Now if women voting for Hillary were doing so because they believed that women are naturally, or supernaturally, perhaps, better suited than men to hold positions of power, that would indeed be sexist. ""

    ******************

    Good point about "identification". So you think the high numbers of Blacks voting for Obama did so because they "identified" with him?

    Perhaps when white males do this, it's not racism either, then. They certainly don't get the benefit of the doubt you're providing women and Blacks.

    And many people, including those on this blog, explained that it was okay for Blacks and females to do it because...well, they weren't white males.

    I believe you shouldn't factor race or sex into the decision. It sures seems sexist to me to vote for Hillary because she's a woman.

    Complain about this comment

  • 436. At 01:39am on 17 Sep 2009, allmymarbles wrote:

    ranter.

    If you use a word that is not English, put it in quotes. That has worked for me.

    Complain about this comment

  • 437. At 01:41am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    381 what is that first paragraph about.
    are you saying I am a jihadist or is it another blogger.
    your post reveal a deep paranoia and this continual theme of jihadists and muslims in a negative light.

    I have agreed with marcus before that suing doctors is there to stop or discourage malpractice.I've never said tort reform will do the job.
    I'm for full nationalisation of all the hospitals. seizure by the state;Fortunately Obama wouldn't agree. and even I know that that would not be advisable because the americans can't conceive of any nationalised system , even though they have plenty already.
    Or they think it's OK to have a wasteful military bidding system but not a wasteful health system.
    wrong guess buddy.
    but then you can't read it seems. or have just joined the conversation.
    which is the case so I'll excuse your guess but not the force with which you asserted it.


    what your real problem is ,is I do understand what you are saying. you think you are clever enough to get it by the bloggers here but I doubt that. I have read many here's comments over time and I suspect there are quite a few that see right through the weasel words you use.
    sorry any weasels out there. I know I have picked on you but I am hoping you understand that it is because I know most of you do not understand what I'm saying.

    PS I do know who Micheal Steel is and I wish him luck at turning the decent folk that called themselves republicans back to the party so they can gain some credibility.

    But it would be racist of me to agree he is a great politician just because he is black. but then that might put you in the glass house if you thought about it.

    Complain about this comment

  • 438. At 01:44am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    There is a contradiction here it seems for some.
    they say they want a healthcare bill but this one is just wrong.
    they say that congress makes the bills not obama.
    then they blame Obama.

    Complain about this comment

  • 439. At 01:47am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    jinD 389 I keep telling our Mark that he has to be careful about peoples personal interpretations of words here.

    Complain about this comment

  • 440. At 01:50am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    390 now thats telling them.

    Complain about this comment

  • 441. At 01:58am on 17 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    Fluffy if you really want to know, I left you that tidbit as I have been disappointed by you not responding. I will summarize that you have been preparing a good response. You pick just enough of a post to be able to criticize it. I do enjoy your feedback.
    However so far you have not said a single good thing about anything or anyone, without taking it back with retort. Here I will do it again, what do I have to do to sway you from believing that I am not a racist or bigot?

    Complain about this comment

  • 442. At 01:59am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    " What's the difference between hating a particular race and hating a politically like-minded group in 2009?"


    politics can be changed.
    simple.

    I don't agree that it is only white . I have met people that agree with the republicans from all sides. most tend to be older though. but as our dear aquaarizona gal reminds us with her lovely posts. not all old people are bad. my own parents back that assertion up.

    Complain about this comment

  • 443. At 02:01am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    "Thinking that people protesting against Obama are racists says a lot more about you than it does the protesters."

    or that they are smart because they can understand what the word means.

    Marbles don't worry that ranter is worse than me.
    I thought I made no sense.

    Complain about this comment

  • 444. At 02:04am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    411 do show where your comments were changed.
    they barely make sense.

    Complain about this comment

  • 445. At 02:09am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    418 just to point out that when GW had his energy bill that included no real advances in technology but a few territorial ambitions and big breaks to his buddies in the gas industry and the coal industry they had no dems until the night they presented the few thousand page document they had concocted in private.

    now you want to complain !

    I hope you were as vocal about that at the time

    Complain about this comment

  • 446. At 02:14am on 17 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    442. At 01:59am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:
    " What's the difference between hating a particular race and hating a politically like-minded group in 2009?"


    politics can be changed.
    simple.

    ********************

    Like everyone else you're trying to tell us why it's okay for you to hate an entire group.

    Hate whoever you want. Hate everyone and often. Just spare us the criticisms about the Republicans' hatred and extremism.

    Complain about this comment

  • 447. At 02:23am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    I think it is a very narrow and self-serving interpretation of the Constitution to say "there is nothing in there about health care". Suppporting the legislative process, rather than subverting it, is what the founders intended, as far as I can tell."

    yep that why they said for the general welfare.


    41 ranter.

    because the titbit you used was racist.
    sorry to acll it racist.
    I did give you a chance earlier to explain but you declined so was I wrong in assuming you did not want to explain exactly how it was so bad for Obama to see a muslim.

    to convice me that you are not racist all you have to do is stop making racist comments.
    I do see that you argue from two sides on health care one minute one thing another the next, not on issues but on the same thing. but you carry on constant with one theme.
    . just admit that it is no biggie that Obama has a muslim into the white house and praises their efforts for peace.

    there is more than just liking black people to racism.
    and there is more to racism than just hating black people

    there are other races.You seem as marcus and other zionist supporters here to specialise in thinking Muslims are some evil empire.

    Complain about this comment

  • 448. At 02:28am on 17 Sep 2009, chronophobe wrote:

    re: 435 AndreainNY "Perhaps when white males do this, it's not racism either, then. They certainly don't get the benefit of the doubt you're providing women and Blacks."

    It's not the skin pigmentation that matters -- to identify with Obama is to identify with the story of the outsider, with the lower position in the racial (and social, but the two are intertwined) hierarchy. Obama is the long shot, the coloured kid with the funny name who made good. Millions and millions of Americans (and, in fact, people around the world) identify with the symbolism of his story: people of all skin pigmentations, genders, and from all walks of life. His is a compelling story: the David who knocks down Goliath.

    But there are a lot of people who like the hierarchy as it stands. People who identify with the dominant position -- people of all skin pigmentations, genders, and social classes. It not a question of race so much as it is of 'whiteness': the qualities we associate with power and which, because of our historical legacy, are tinged with racial qualities (white racial qualities -- which, btw, it would be interesting to enumerate -- thus exposing our -- yours and mine -- cultural prejudices).

    Obama's victory challenges that hierarchy, and people feel viscerally that something they value is crumbling. And while I understand their angst, I have no sympathy for it. The mythic mixture of racial superiority and power is a toxic brew.

    Complain about this comment

  • 449. At 02:35am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    Ninny. You probably hate smack addicts and crankers.
    rapist and pedophiles.

    now I've known some nice smack heads. nice people . as that max guy said, they use because they are nice but can't handle the un nice world.
    crankers I just don't get but don't get me wrong there are plenty that are not robbing houses to make their bit.
    rapists and pedophiles.
    well I'm with you there, if you do hate them.
    alcoholics..
    lets see. POT HEADS you're not into them I bet. even wish to see them in jail. WHY . if you drink its hypocrisy . .

    they all make a choice.(though science and the lord say otherwise) nature nurture debate genes maybe all sorts we don't understand. really it's a compulsion. but we assume they can work against it.

    Race and gender cannot be changed so easily.
    If you did make the effort you would probably be targeted for another form of bigotry.
    indeed the choice of sexuality is it's self seen as less of a choice and more of "gods will".

    But race and gender are not a choosing and are very obvious. that is why there are laws protecting them from discrimination.
    shame the same laws cannot be applied equally to those that are homosexual.

    but some see it as a choice. that is the excuse for the discrimination they face.
    do you think your sex was your choice?
    or your race?


    you mentioned apples and oranges.

    Complain about this comment

  • 450. At 02:38am on 17 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    I also agree with what was stated on that post and with Marcus on that.
    I do not believe you to be any of the things you mention.
    When the government both attack doctors and hospitals by saying they are committing fraud
    and overcharging, and then say to them with the same breath that Tort reform will help them. First they call them shameless crooks and then say hey but you can do the same thing with the public at large. Just don't try that on the government because we hold major shares in the profession and are now going to be sending you people you can mutilate with impunity. So I go and get my right foot cut off by accident and still need my left but it is the one that I still need them to cut off. They will say sorry the most you can sue for is 50.000 dollars. No permanent reprimand on the doctor, his/her reputation intact and I have a wheel chair. The thing about it is that it will probably happen to a single provider for the family, be it daddy or mommy. Or tell me, how does this sound.(of course you can't hear this) you don't need the operation, go home and take some pain meds for the rest of your short life. If I criticize this reform, even if I were a racist good for nothing, bad excuse for a human being, better off dead charlatan(which I am not) wouldn't I still have a good argument? I am not trying to elicit cynicism nor agreement. Contempt just doesn't feel right. I am not Anglo, I am not Black I am with point of views.

    Complain about this comment

  • 451. At 02:40am on 17 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Wow it's really heating up in the battle of the cable networks now. Fox is leading the charge against President Obama (no surprise there) by blasting Acorn left and right. Sean Hannity just aired a brand new never seen tape of the "investigators" at Acorn's San Diego office. In the tape, a Latino employee of Acorn offers to help the couple smuggle a dozen 13 to 15 year old girls into the US from Tijuana Mexico to work as prostitutes. He also propositions the woman asking her how much she charges for a weekend. Fox is also predicting right wing radio talk show hosts will tie this noose around Obama's neck linking him to Acorn in an effort to destroy his presidency (shades of what the Republicans tried to do to Clinton.) They are also leading the charge against the accusations of the tea party participants being racists by claiming it is a ploy to delegitimize the argument against the health plan bills in Congress. Even PBS got involved in that debate with Charlene Hunter Galt interviewing three "experts", two African Americans who were concerned that there was racism and one white one who said he found no evidence of it even trying to goad some of the participants into showing signs of racism but couldn't.

    Meanwhile over at MSNBC they're countering with Sarah Palin stories and seem to have dropped the Congressman Wilson story for the moment. CNN interviewed the head of Acorn who says her organization did nothing wrong and fired the employees who broke the rules. She also denied all accusations of participating in voter fraud last fall and said it was Acorn who turned in the violators. Even CNN's interviewer found her story incredulous. All of the networks reported that the state of Louisiana has started an investigation into Acorn and that there may be an FBI investigation as well. The Senate voted 83-7 today to cut off funding to Acorn. Fox hunted down the seven trying to get them to explain why they still supported it. One film showing one Acron employee boasting that she'd also been a prostitute at one time and shot her husband who had abused her has been investigated and it appears all of her former husbands are alive and well. Her story was at least in part evidently invented as she later claimed. And to make matters more interesting, America's crazy old uncle Jimmy the peanut farmer Who came out of his locked room again and made another of his famous statements reitterating his opinion that the critics of President Obama are motivated by racism against black Americans.

    And where was BBC in all of this? Gawking on the sidelines like the rest of us. I did see your piece Mr. Mardell on BBC's PBS program. The UK must be a very boring bland place by comparison.

    Complain about this comment

  • 452. At 02:44am on 17 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    448. chronophobe: With all due respect, that was a glowing description of Obama's story. It's a great story.

    But you didn't really address why it is that white males are not permitted the same luxury of voting for those with whom they "identify". Because white males have the power they, thus, have "racial superiority" and are somehow guilty in your eyes?

    If they didn't have the power as you see it, would you permit them this luxury?

    Complain about this comment

  • 453. At 02:57am on 17 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    When white people tell black men that they have to stay with their families and support the children they brought into the world that's racism. When Louis Farrakhan has a million man march and tells black men the same thing that is not racism. When white people tell black children they need to stay in school and get an education so they can get a good job and get out of poverty that is racism. When President Obama tell them the same thing that is not racism. It appears that in some people's eyes, it's not what is said but who says it. For these people, freedom of speech has no legitimacy unless it is what they want to hear and from whom they want to hear it.

    Complain about this comment

  • 454. At 03:02am on 17 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    449.fluffytale: "...But race and gender are not a choosing and are very obvious. that is why there are laws protecting them from discrimination.
    shame the same laws cannot be applied equally to those that are homosexual.

    but some see it as a choice. that is the excuse for the discrimination they face.
    do you think your sex was your choice?
    or your race?


    you mentioned apples and oranges.

    ********************
    Yes, you're talking about discrimination, the act. I am talking about hatred... and extremism.

    Your hatred is somehow more acceptable than Republicans' why? Not sure why you feel you have any right to tell Republicans who they can and cannot hate. You get to hate everyone you want.

    Complain about this comment

  • 455. At 03:03am on 17 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    431. AndreainNY:

    I am becoming extremely confused.

    Who, excactly, do you consider has 'bigoted and extreme views'? One (or more) of the contributors here? Those you call 'liberals' (and I myself am all too aware that has become a term of abuse on the political right)? Democrats, because you want the Republicans 'spared criticism'?

    You have tried to equate (I won't use the word 'hating') abhorring a political party with race hatred. How can that be? I abhor right wing parties generally because of their stances and their philosophies, and often their practices when in government. The racial or ethnic composition of their members is, generally, not relevant.

    Likewise, you say voting for Hillary Clinton could be sexist . . .men of any race, background or political persuasion not voting for her because she was a woman would be sexist.

    Likewise, were a Presidential candidate to be of Japanese origin and 98 per cent of Americans of Japanese origin voted for him, they could not be racist. If 98 per cent of all other races voted against him then one might well conclude that was racism on their part.

    Complain about this comment

  • 456. At 03:10am on 17 Sep 2009, chronophobe wrote:

    AndreainNY -- lots of white males have very little power, and yet identify with power. Ditto for all shades of skin.

    What is at issue (it seems to me) is the nature of power -- I believe it has a racial component associated with 'whiteness.' I believe that this mixture of power and race (wherein 'white' is seen to be hierarchically superior to other colours) is a legacy of our history, and that it is culturally pervasive. Much the same could be said of 'maleness.'

    This might be our point of divergence. Many see 'racism' as a personal failing. In it's most extreme manifestations, it often is. But I see it as more a problem of our culture ... I am quite capable of being 'racist' from time to time myself: I have in the past, and may well in the future, fall back upon notions tainted by the stain of racial superiority.

    Complain about this comment

  • 457. At 03:11am on 17 Sep 2009, Jan_Keeskop wrote:

    ranter22: On post 421, I'm not sure how I've taken your words out of context. In 216, you wrote When Jesus the son of man, which Muslims consider less than a prophet, came to earth he was God.. In my reply at 301, I wrote that Muslims do consider Jesus to be a prophet; see Qur'an 19:30-34. The context, as I understood it, was that you had stated that Muslims consider Jesus to be less than a prophet; I, in response, replied that on the contrary, they do hold Jesus to be a prophet, and provided a Qur'anic source for this viewpoint.

    What do you view the context to have been in 216 and 301? Did I misunderstand your statement in 216?

    In 421, when you stated Taking it to that point is not right, It was not the same, and you know that, I must admit that I'm unclear as to what you mean. What exactly is the it here, and to which point was it taken?

    Complain about this comment

  • 458. At 03:11am on 17 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    How does this excerpt look to you?

    Americans (and, in fact, people around the world) identify with the symbolism of his story: people of all skin pigmentations, genders, and from all walks of life. His is a compelling story: the David who knocks down Goliath.

    Ahh but you believe David should be what color?

    Knocking down, euphemism for what?

    And no, My mother was a woman, May she be where no politics abound.

    Lets Take the celebrated Muslim Mud Hammed Ali, A great Boxer,Champion of the world.
    Refused to serve America in the Armed forces and said that No VC(Viet Cong) ever called him a N word and therefore he was not going.
    Conscientious objector who did not believe in Killing. Changed his given name from Cassius Clay Prizefighter and three time champion for the nation that he decline to serve. Preferred to go to jail for about 5 years or so.
    Ok so say he did not want to kill, couldn't he have said I will train people in self defense?
    What is to celebrate about him, Just because he changed over to Muslim?
    Am I being racist in this? or did I point of a truth?
    Van Jones, You think he wants just equality?
    If anyone made his comments about any other race, we would have to send in the national guard.
    Tolerance is a remarkable quality that Mr. Obama has!
    If anyone is willing to break bread and wine with me and all politics aside I will not object. But if someone is trying to break my head, My instincts kick in. During my childhood you would find me defending the underdog. I still do. You won't find me planning to hurt anyone. This blog site will probably not make much difference to any.
    I am glad we have shared.

    Complain about this comment

  • 459. At 03:17am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    You miss the whole point that laws are enacted to prevent discrimination of any sort against those that cannot change that for which they are discriminated from.
    Kids on skate boards are called skate punks, pot heads "useless worthless doper" there is all sort of bigotry out there and you have engaged in some of it.
    but race, gander and indeed age are so clearly not a choice even to the densest person that discriminating against them is not considered acceptable.
    Your argument to take the extream would say I should respect pedophiles and nazi's.
    I don't Sorry if you cannot understand that basic an fundemental concept.
    That is your problem. YOu complain everyone is partisan then spout total rubbish like this.
    I have a problem with republicans.
    WHY?
    because they have blocked every change nessesary for years.
    They may have made a few good changes themselves but I have yet to notice the tricke down that never happened.
    I do know that old ronnie thought solar cells a waste of time. and all since have faced a barrage of NO from the right and some on the left.
    Frankly that boomer generation were the ones most opposed to the changes that were needed.

    Not those from the depression that remembered how to recycle.

    The boomers can't help it. and like I say I don't blame them all. but there is statistical evidence that they spent years saying "who cares mine OK".
    Now I know they lived through the brainwashing of the mc carthy years so I give a little latitude.
    I do not really hold them responsible for all the worlds problems, but I do know that a large amount sat around and did nothing. and that a lot of the republican ones still think we should do nothing. and young republicans do think we should do something.
    TC proved that some do at least.


    Complain about this comment

  • 460. At 03:20am on 17 Sep 2009, chronophobe wrote:

    I havta say that this ACORN business mystifies me. If you sent operatives around to enough employees of any organization, you would eventually find one who was both stupid and crooked enough to take the bait.

    What, beyond allowing Fox to shout, "ACORN, ACORN, ACORN" does this have to do with anything other than human folly?

    Complain about this comment

  • 461. At 03:29am on 17 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    Baucus is learning from Obama how to speak in terms that mean nothing.

    A quality health care system he said. What kind of quality and for whom?

    No republican support.

    Exactly what people were discussing here, spoken words which seemingly mean just exactly what some believe and in reality no one ever clarifies them. Therefore leaving a position taken by the speaker open to later explanation. Be careful reading labels in the supermarket of life. This is like a waltz where a couple dances and they never leave the area. Carter just said Wilson remark racial, old news.
    Wow Carter, see fluffy this man is a christian what do you say? Is he racist?

    Complain about this comment

  • 462. At 03:32am on 17 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    459. fluffytale: "You miss the whole point that laws are enacted to prevent discrimination of any sort against those that cannot change that for which they are discriminated from.
    Kids on skate boards are called skate punks, pot heads "useless worthless doper" there is all sort of bigotry out there and you have engaged in some of it."

    *************

    No, I didn't miss the point. I got your point about discrimination. My point was about your anger vs. the anger of Republicans.

    Please identify how I've engaged in bigotry?

    Complain about this comment

  • 463. At 03:36am on 17 Sep 2009, chronophobe wrote:

    re: fluffy and 'hate'

    There is a difference between being passionate about racial equality, and being passionate about preserving power hierarchies that have a racial or gender component (or should I say, preserving the racial or gender components of power hierarchies?)

    If you believe in racial and gender equality, one is right, the other is wrong.

    Now, if I were a real socialist, I'd tell you that all hierarchies have to go. But I'm not convinced it is possible, let alone desirable. I could be convinced, perhaps. Typical liberal.

    Complain about this comment

  • 464. At 03:44am on 17 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    458. At 03:11am on 17 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    "Am I being racist in this?"

    Well, when you write about Cassius Marcellus Clay or Muhammed Ali as "the celebrated Muslim Mud Hammed Ali" I think we may draw certain conclusions.

    Complain about this comment

  • 465. At 03:48am on 17 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    Jan_Keeskop wrote:
    Here is the difference The honorable prophet Muhammad;(Vrede met Jou)

    (2:83) Remember that We made a solemn covenant with the children of Israel to this effect: worship none save Allah: be good to your parents, to your relatives, to the orphans and to the helpless; speak aright with the people: establish the Salat and pay the Zakat. But with the exception of a few, you all slid back from it and are paying no heed to it even now.

    Worship none except Allah, do you contend that Muhammad (Vrede met Jou) is Jesus?
    Tell me if I misunderstood? or are they on equal levels?

    Complain about this comment

  • 466. At 03:48am on 17 Sep 2009, AndreainNY wrote:

    463. chronophobe:

    re: fluffy and 'hate'

    There is a difference between being passionate about racial equality, and being passionate about preserving power hierarchies that have a racial or gender component (or should I say, preserving the racial or gender components of power hierarchies?)

    ************************

    Yes, there's a big difference. One is not racial equality.

    I believe you are trying to justify racism against white males with your "power hierarchy" argument.

    There's not one definition of racism for white males and one for everyone else.

    Complain about this comment

  • 467. At 03:56am on 17 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    Ouch! fluffy you cut me. How endearing of you not to stoop to that level as I am sure you have the highest of restraint. Thank you mam may I have another? You mean that you reworked your conclusion in order to ignore that written text and superimpose your spin.
    I do not object to just one religion having a holiday on the white white house.

    I object to all of them having any business there.

    What lie did I mention?

    Complain about this comment

  • 468. At 04:01am on 17 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    Thanks bethpa, it does do it.

    Complain about this comment

  • 469. At 04:03am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    458
    "Am I being racist in this? or did I point of a truth? "
    that one seems more racist than pointing out the truth.

    But you'll never get it.

    "If anyone is willing to break bread and wine with me and all politics aside I will not object."
    but if the president behaves in the same way with a muslim you will call him names and suggest he was being racially provocative.

    ninny they have done their best to stop any legislation to help this planet survive. they have demanded war.
    they have ignored the obvious bull going on in wall st. they have done a lot I see as dispicable in order to promote their financial agenda. they have stopped reasonable debate on health care (which is how we got here)
    they have prvented osha doing their job by removing their funding.
    they reamed the EPA. they decimated the local timber.
    They have behaved like a bunch of criminals.(on the whole)
    there are some that are some that tried to buck these trends ,but not many.

    Also note I do not have such issues with ALL republicans. just those like you that cannot stop talking like a spoilt ,,,,,,

    Complain about this comment

  • 470. At 04:07am on 17 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    squirrellist wrote:

    A typo I assure you, and no intentional or derogatory conscience went into that, my point was that it is possible to be impartial and informative without being labeled racist
    I still believe that.

    Complain about this comment

  • 471. At 04:08am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    You mean that you reworked your conclusion in order to ignore that written text and superimpose your spin.
    I do not object to just one religion having a holiday on the white white house.

    I object to all of them having any business there.


    really so why not complain about the others that are bound to have been through the white house.
    and do you think that so soon(8years) after 9/11 the christians being met in the white house would inflame hatred?
    your attempts to be cryptic are just sad.

    "You mean that you reworked your conclusion in order to ignore that written text and superimpose your spin."

    I reworked nothing because it was not wrought in the first place. off the top of my head so to speak.
    maybe you have to spend ages composing your lies but that is because you have to be careful

    Complain about this comment

  • 472. At 04:10am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C84wtN0L1A4&feature=related

    Complain about this comment

  • 473. At 04:11am on 17 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    My post should have read 'Muhammad, Ali'

    Complain about this comment

  • 474. At 04:13am on 17 Sep 2009, Jan_Keeskop wrote:

    ranter22: On post 465, no, that is not my contention; my understanding of the Muslim point of view is that:

    • Jesus is a prophet;
    • Muhammad is a prophet;
    • Jesus and Muhammad are not the same person;
    • neither Jesus nor Muhammad is Allah.

    Complain about this comment

  • 475. At 04:21am on 17 Sep 2009, chronophobe wrote:

    re: 466 AndreainNY I believe you are trying to justify racism against white males with your "power hierarchy" argument.

    I do not believe race has any meaning outside of it's myths. Race is a myth. But it is a powerful myth, and in our funky Western Civilization, it is a myth that continues to justify the power of 'whiteness' over other colours. You can be brown of skin, and believe in 'whiteness.' You can be pink of skin, and want to dismantle the racial hierarchy.

    Race is a myth of power -- outside of this myth, skin colour means nothing more than hair colour, or foot size.

    Complain about this comment

  • 476. At 04:23am on 17 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    466. AndreainNY

    What with you and ranter 22 this blog is getting like a game of Chinese Whispers.

    What exactly are you trying to tell us (me, Chronophobe, and Fluffytail)? Because I for one no longer have the faintest idea. It looks as though you imagine any one or all) of us would condone any form of racism or discrimination against anyone because they were white.

    If that's what you mean, please say so. If it isn't, then I'm at a total loss to know what you mean.


    Complain about this comment

  • 477. At 04:26am on 17 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Fluff

    Right now Obama is gutting the CIA. He says he will close GITMO by the end of the year but where will he put the fiends that are caged up there? He talks in platitudes but when it comes to details and hard answers there's nobody home. But then what more can one expect from a man whose experience is limited to being a "community organizer" and editing an law journal?

    Complain about this comment

  • 478. At 04:30am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    Complain about this comment

  • 479. At 04:31am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    ranter if I cut you you must be soft.
    because I am rather blunt.

    Complain about this comment

  • 480. At 04:31am on 17 Sep 2009, kcwhattrick wrote:

    I don't believe racism played a role here, but let's face it, the outside world has been watching and waiting to pounce on America since Obama announced he was running for the Democrats. Anything to point the finger at the US and cry "RACISTS!"

    The way I see it, no matter how far we come in our race relations, we will always be seen as a racist country by some (the UK springs to mind immediately).

    Complain about this comment

  • 481. At 04:32am on 17 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:

    Jan_Keeskop

    Thanks, I agree.

    Complain about this comment

  • 482. At 04:33am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    Jan you seem to be making the mistake of actually knowing what you are talking about.
    reefer seems like a few others to have a real problem with that.


    Complain about this comment

  • 483. At 04:36am on 17 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    474. At 04:13am on 17 Sep 2009, Jan_Keeskop wrote:

    "Jesus is a prophet;
    Muhammad is a prophet;
    Jesus and Muhammad are not the same person;
    neither Jesus nor Muhammad is Allah."

    I think we've got there at last.

    It would be difficult for Jesus and Mohammed to be the same person anyway, since they were born several hundred years apart. And, though I have read statements to the contrary, Jesus predeceased Mohammed, therefore Islam came after Christianity. (Leaving aside the idea that there is actually more direct evidence for Mohammed having been born and lived anyway.)

    Complain about this comment

  • 484. At 04:39am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    , my point was that it is possible to be impartial and informative without being labeled racist
    I still believe that.


    so do I and I suspect squirrellist.
    problem is it is also possible to be a racist.
    and you are!

    or do you admit it was just a racist comment and you didn't mean it. upon reflection it was uncalled for and wrong.
    or something. Like many say we all make mistakes. those that are not racists but made a racist comment recognise that and correct it.
    after apologising and reflecting upon it.

    the racists are the ones that make the comment and when questioned about it get more stuck in.
    and that is what the right are doing. including you and ninny.

    Complain about this comment

  • 485. At 04:42am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    477 MA why address that comment to me?
    OH while your there can you apologise to jacksforge for your low stoop about his pets.
    or are you determined to remain a hypocrite .

    Complain about this comment

  • 486. At 04:48am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    "Jesus is a prophet;
    Muhammad is a prophet;
    Jesus and Muhammad are not the same person;
    neither Jesus nor Muhammad is Allah."

    Jesus is allowed into the white house
    Muhammad isn't.

    Complain about this comment

  • 487. At 04:49am on 17 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 488. At 05:12am on 17 Sep 2009, Jan_Keeskop wrote:

    ranter22: Ah, I think that I now understand the context chain between posts 216 and 465. When you'd stated which Muslims consider less than a prophet in 216, what you'd meant was which Muslims consider less than one particular prophet, but which I'd interpreted as which Muslims consider less than any prophet in 301. Your reply in 421 was based on my 301 being understood in your meaning; my reply in 457 was based on my not yet understanding your meaning; and your reply in 465 was trying to confirm whether or not we shared the same meaning.

    Like squirrellist said, we've got there at last. ;*)

    Complain about this comment

  • 489. At 05:21am on 17 Sep 2009, Interestedforeigner wrote:

    Where is Sam when you need him?


    Some time ago I saw a news item that the Secret Service had acknowledged that President Obama was receiving something like 100 or 1000 times as many death threats as any previous President. (Does anybody have hard data on this?)

    It's about racism.

    _________

    We see protesters who attend rallies with rifles. How much insight does it take to understand this symbolism in the context of lynching a black man? It is a form of outrageous public intimidation.

    Why are these people not arrested for public mischief? We believe in freedom of speech, but it is not an absolute right: you cannot yell "FIRE" in a crowded theatre, either. Taking a firearm to a public rally is not about the right to carry firearms. It is about asserting a right to intimidate political free speech in a democracy by threat of violence.

    And, as others have noted, the crowds appear to be as all-white as you could ask for.

    Of course it's about racism.

    _________

    There is a lot of denial going on here. We even had the classic "some of my best friends are" kind of line up near the top of the string. Some posters try to substitute smear labels for logical discussion:

    "Socialist" is used as an insult by people who you strongly suspect would be unable to define the term.

    "Hitler" or "fascist" or fascism" comes up, and, again, you suspect the people have no understanding of the words.

    The President is labelled a "radical" this or a "radical" that, and is sometimes accused of being both a fascist and a communist. Neat trick.

    People talk about the government having no right under the US Constitution to legislate in the field of health care, and you really strongly suspect that they have never read the US Constitution, and have no clue what they are talking about. Of course they don't even try to explain how universal public health care can be unconstitutional, whereas universal public health care is perfectly fine if you're over 65. Some mental gymnastics going on there, for sure.

    All of these things are dead giveaways about the poster.

    Then there is nonsense talk about the cost of public healthcare, when every major industrial nation that has public healthcare provides it at less expense than the bloated US system, typically about half as much. It is the existing US healthcare system that America can't afford, not public healthcare.

    And who is complaining? The same "fiscal conservatives" who inherited a budget in surplus, and then ran up unsustainably huge debts. The hypocrisy of it is so stark.

    No, you don't have to be a racist to oppose public healthcare. There are arguments that can be made against it - it is anaethma to the AMA, to the big healthcare providers, to the insurance companies, to big pharma, all of whom would see their ability to extract excess economic rents reined in by a single-payer system, or even by a public insurance option. But a certain amount of it is driven by racism, and it has a more strident edge because of racism.

    And finally, it has always been something of a puzzle why the richest nation on earth was the only major industrial nation that has never had public health care. But maybe there is an expanation for that.

    In the past, the funding of schools by property tax was often a proxy for people in rich white neighbourhoods not wanting to pay for the schooling of children in poor non-white neighbourhoods.

    Sometimes you get the impression that the people who quite openly admit that they do not want to be taxed to pay for other people's healthcare (not seeing that the whole point of any kind of insurance is the pooling of risks of limited predictability, and not willing to admit that keeping our neighbours healthy benefits us all - do you really want your indigent neighbours to bring plague to town, or, more pertinently, do you really want tuberculosis to make a comeback through the homeless population in your city?) are really sometimes saying that they don't want to pay for healthcare for people whose skins are a different colour.

    Yeah, it isn't necessarily always about racism, or entirely about racism, but it takes a special kind of willful blindness to deny that an uncomfortably large slice of it is.

    Complain about this comment

  • 490. At 05:31am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    lol jan.

    Thats what he wants you to think maybe.

    but reality is he(ranter) was commenting about the eye for an eye comment I made to him saying that only islam say to kill others.

    That is why he is so about the bush with his comments.
    and not use direct names.

    before reading 216 do read 214 and 212. 208 189

    starting with this . un racist comment

    "179. At 01:47am on 16 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:
    Nice try fluffy but you must understand no other religion teaches to kill the unbelievers.
    mine tells me to just walk away if no one listens. I truly do not feel like an infidel today, Maybe tomorrow. I believe Jesus Christ himself would ask them to cast the first stone. My time left might be short here but I am grateful. You know the other day president Obama celebrated some Muslims he thought deserved praise. But I am sure you are current so I won't go on. I must admit I am curious as to why he would further inflame the people of America in such a way."

    Just so you know where this all came from and how far in deceit these guys go.

    it is pretty transparent.
    like the guy who was fool enough to say "show me".
    So sharp they cut them selves

    Complain about this comment

  • 491. At 05:35am on 17 Sep 2009, haglady wrote:

    It's partly racial, and it's partly the GOP pitching a fit. I recently read a story by a respected newspaper that contrasted "President Bush" with "Obama." Powers that be work in similar subtle ways to influence folks. One day of watching FOX news (a misnomer if there ever was one) should clarify the tenets of blatant manipulation of opinion. I have found old fashioned newspapers and cable tv networks mostly biased toward big business, though again, subtly. Thankfully, the 'net is here to point out discrepancies, if one cares to investigate ... and is pretty much all we have as a resource of intelligent commentary. Sad that such a proud nation has devolved into sheep unwilling to think for themselves.

    Complain about this comment

  • 492. At 05:37am on 17 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    488. At 05:12am on 17 Sep 2009, Jan_Keeskop wrote:

    "Like squirrellist said, we've got there at last. ;*)"

    We have?

    Right then.

    So should anyone who is at all religious be accepted within the hallowed portals of the White House based on their view of the status of a prophet? And where does that put, say, the Dalai Lama? Or Unitarians, come to think of it. Or should only confirmed atheists get in? And has this any connection with colour? Or race?

    (This is all getting a bit theological. Reminds me of Catholic discussions about who gets into Heaven and who gets stuck in Purgatory. At least until they abolished Purgatory. Now I've no idea where I might meet Aristophanes or Sophocles, which is what I was rather looking forward to.)

    Complain about this comment

  • 493. At 05:38am on 17 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    486. At 04:48am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    "Jesus is allowed into the white house
    Muhammad isn't."

    But Hussein is :-)

    Complain about this comment

  • 494. At 05:50am on 17 Sep 2009, HoHumDeeDum wrote:

    Ever since I read this article yesterday, I've been absolutely SEETHING with anger.. but I dared not post until I calmed down a bit.
    I've read some comments that are dead on accurate, and even read some from what I like to call "plants" - a couple of ppl posted, "yeah, I'm racist, been a racist all my life, so has my family".. yadda, yadda. Yeah, right. Those type of posters just want to validate your article, claiming we're all racists in the USA.
    Anyway.. I guess in light of the "plants" & those who had valid posts, I'd like to say this:
    Yeah, we're racist here in America (not). All we care about, seriously, is that we have a black man in the White House. The protest over the weekend? Nothing but racists- even the blacks, hispanics, asians, etc. who showed up to the protest - are all RACISTS! (I know, I know.. YOU didn't see any on the video, but that's only because CNN, MSNBC, etc. did what they were supposed to do - film only the whites and edit out any clips that might show a minority, because then it would be a lot harder to prove the 'racism' claims.)
    Ah, but I digress...all we care about is the color of his skin (not). All those other issues? Like the fact that he was supposed to end the UNCONSTITUTIONAL wars, yet increased the war with 40,000 add'l troops.. and let's see, spending more money than all US Presidents in history COMBINED... oh, and let's not forget, spent 1.6 TRILLION dollars in bailouts for the banks - the SAME BANKS that Bush spent 700 Billion on & we went ballistic over (still, what's a measly 1.6 Trillion compared to 700 billion, right?) Oh, hey, and we have a new auto mfg here, called GOVERNMENT MOTORS (GM) & even though it's UNCONSTITUTIONAL & never been done before in the history of this country, we don't care, we just care what color his skin is, ya know? Oh, yeah, almost forgot, even though the Healthcare bill is UNCONSTITUTIONAL, too.. over 1,000 pgs long, (that nobody but us citizens have read, btw).. a plan with more holes in it than the Titanic.. and, it's so scary that Congress, the Senate & President have EXEMPTED themselves from it... not to mention, we're completely bankrupt, so how ARE we going to pay for this HC plan anyway? But you see, those issues.. ah, we don't care if the President bankrupts us & puts us all in the poor house, strips us of our Constitutional rights, Kills all our boys in an unConstitutional war, and so on, so forth.. nah.. what we really care about? Just his skin color, for goodness sake! NO SANE PERSON would care about any of those life-changing, troop-killing, Nation-destroying issues that I just mentioned.. no way.. not when we could care soooo much more that we have a black man as President!
    So now.. you get my drift? We're not racists, you dolts - we're concerned about the direction our country is heading... DOWN THE TUBES, and fast! And I bet you would do the exact same thing.. if YOUR leaders were sinking YOUR country.

    PS: You know what, BBC? I lost a lot of respect for you over this article. What a bunch of GARBAGE you produced with this one! Go find a real issue to cover.. like the deadliest day yet for American troops in Afghanistan - on Obama's watch. That should feed you bloodthirsty sharks for a bit, huh? Oh.. and stay out of our Politics, if you don't know what you're talking about.. it just makes you look stupid.. and makes us really angry. Screaming racism as a way to silence our Free Speech only makes us all the more angry about this! :( What utter GARBAGE!

    Complain about this comment

  • 495. At 05:55am on 17 Sep 2009, HoHumDeeDum wrote:

    Oh, wait... I forgot to mention something: I read a couple of posters using the excuse that because people are showing up at rallies with AK-47's etc that this PROVES they're racists.. really? Hmm.. because guess what? Those men that excercised their RIGHTS to open carry the AK-47s? They were BLACK men.. so now you're calling black men racists about a black President??? ROFLMAO! Gawd.. you guys are soooo misinformed!

    Complain about this comment

  • 496. At 06:07am on 17 Sep 2009, David Cunard wrote:

    #386. squirrellist: "I like liberals too. I like socialists beter."

    You have mentioned your socialist preference before, but I wonder if that's the cause you really espouse? Do you mean socialism in the "old" Labour sense, state owned and managed essential industries and so forth, or a different brand of it? The current government in the UK can hardly be called socialist or do you think it is? Knowing more would help to understand you views; you berated me gently for reading the Mail, but do you read The Morning Star (successor to The Daily Worker) as well as The Guardian? I discount "the red tops" as a source of real news and views, but do check them to see what they have to say.

    Complain about this comment

  • 497. At 06:09am on 17 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:

    489 I don't know where sam is but I'm glad to see you.
    Class .


    squirrellist.
    darn right he is. He's my PRESIDENT

    Complain about this comment

  • 498. At 06:11am on 17 Sep 2009, turningblueandgrey wrote:

    494 - This "article" is garbage? We get so much editorial content in the USA presented as news that I understand your confusion, but this is a BBC editorial.

    For another topic when you are ready for a break from health care and the shouting minority: what about Russia and China in South America? What is happening to the Monroe Doctrine?(technically, nothing I suppose, since Chavez is home-grown and to some extent fertilized by our own past inattention). Direct talks and engagement with Cuba, working for more freedoms in return for less sanctions and more trade, might be starting to look better as a counterpoint.

    Complain about this comment

  • 499. At 06:30am on 17 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    498. At 06:11am on 17 Sep 2009, bluejay60 wrote

    "494 - This "article" is garbage? We get so much editorial content in the USA presented as news that I understand your confusion, but this is a BBC editorial."

    Actually, to be precise, it is not an 'editorial', which we would take as a considered opinion on a particular issue representing that of the publication as a whole. Nor is what we read here a straight news 'report'. Those Mark broadcasts on BBC TV or radio.

    We would term it a 'thinkpiece' or 'commentary', more what is known in the US as an 'OpEd'.

    The distinction is important, and one some people fail to recognise. A BBC journalist in these blogs is not representing the BBC as a whole, nor simply 'reporting'. The blog is more personal.

    Complain about this comment

  • 500. At 06:33am on 17 Sep 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    489. Interestedforeigner:

    Well, I agree and so do some others. Others, however, are clearly in denial.

    I am now almost at the stage where I have come to think 'racism denial' should be a punishable offence.


    Complain about this comment

View these comments in RSS

BBC iD

Sign in

BBC navigation

BBC © 2014 The BBC is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.

This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.