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British jobs for foreign workers

Mark Easton | 13:29 UK time, Wednesday, 5 May 2010

What puts more pressure on British jobs - migrant workers coming from the European Union or from outside the EU? This matters, of course, because workers from beyond the EU are affected by the immigration points system and potentially by Conservative proposals for a cap. Workers from inside are free to come and go.

I think I may have a few clues.

Last week I quoted official figures showing that, in 2008, 67,000 non-EU workers came to the UK and 99,000 EU workers. On the face of it, this suggests the effect on jobs is greater from inside rather than outside the European Union.

But the stats only tell us how many workers came into the UK - not how many others left. It is the overall figure, the net number, which matters. After all, if fewer EU workers arrived than departed and more non-EU workers came than left, the picture would be completely different.

The net statistics I quoted last week are not as useful as they might be because they measure people's reasons for migrating rather than accurately tracking the arrival and departure of foreign workers.

The hunt is on, therefore, for a better way of identifying trends. With the help of a friendly chap at the Office for National Statistics, I was guided to a table within the Labour Force Survey , "Employment levels by country of birth and nationality".

The figures show the number of UK and non-UK workers in the labour force and, within that, the number of EU workers with jobs in Britain. It is possible, therefore, to identify UK, EU and non-EU workers and to see how the picture is changing.

The latest data show that, comparing the last quarter of 2009 with the same period in 2008, there are 76,000 fewer non-EU workers and 13,000 fewer EU workers employed in the UK. The EU change is not large enough to be statistically significant - in terms of a trend, the picture is stable.

What does this mean for British workers - after all, fewer of them are employed too? Well, the proportion of all jobs occupied by UK citizens has risen - very slightly. At the end of 2008, 91.9% of jobs were held by Brits. At the end of 2009, it was 92.1%.

Interestingly, while the proportion of jobs held by non-EU workers (the ones affected by the immigration points system) has fallen a tad - from 4.6% to 4.4% of British jobs, EU workers' share of the jobs has gone up slightly - from 3.4% to 3.5%. (The figures don't add up exactly because of rounding.)

Even though the number of EU workers with British jobs has fallen, their share of the UK jobs market has risen a little as the market contracts. Again, this effect may not be statistically significant.

2008: Share of UK jobs by nationality Source: Labour Force Survey British workers (91.9% Non-EU workers (4.6%) EU workers (3.4%) 2009: Share of UK jobs by nationality Source: Labour Force Survey British workers (92.1%) Non-EU workers (4.4%) EU workers (3.5%)

But this is all a far cry from the story in 2002, before the big increases in immigration from central Europe and beyond kicked in. Back then, 95.1% of British jobs were held by British workers. Around 3% were held by non-EU citizens and 1.9% by EU migrants.

2002: Share of UK jobs by nationality Source: Labour Force Survey British workers (95.1%) Non-EU workers (3%) EU workers (1.9%)

The year everything really changed was 2007. The economy was expanding and about 615,000 new jobs were created. Who got them? Roughly 200,000 went to non-EU workers; 275,000 were taken by EU migrants; the remainder, about 140,000, went to Brits.

2003-09: Who got the jobs? Source: Labour Force Survey

Looking at 2009 again, one can see that all three groups lost jobs. UK workers lost the most jobs - 335,000 - but things look rather different when you analyse it in percentage terms.

Among all UK workers, 1.3% lost their jobs in 2009. Among EU workers, 1.2% lost their jobs, a very similar figure. But among non-EU workers, 6% were made redundant in that year.

So what can we conclude in terms of where the pressure on British jobs comes from most? I think the figures suggest that the effect of non-EU jobs is declining, but EU migration's effect is broadly stable.

Comments

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  • 1. At 3:08pm on 05 May 2010, mrwj5 wrote:

    Excellent post, please send it to our far right friends at the BNP/UKIP and cc Mr Cameron in as well. It basically shows no huge effect on jobs by migration and migrants suffered as much or more as British born workers did when the recession hit. Basically migrants are mainly doing the jobs we Brits think are 'below' us anyway.
    All the hype when there really isn't a problem after all!

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  • 2. At 3:45pm on 05 May 2010, Sara wrote:

    Thank you Mark for your series of stats on immigrant workers.

    As I suspected, it's a lesser issue than all the thinly-veiled racists make out.

    A little bit of a mix is healthy - with no migrant workers at all, we would be even less tolerant - and I'm proud at how tolerant a nation we are - apart from the few aggressors who like to shout loudly.

    Do you have any stats on how many ex-pats we have working a) in the EU and b) in other countries not part of the EU? I'd like to see how balanced that is.

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  • 3. At 4:18pm on 05 May 2010, MrWonderfulReality wrote:

    I think that facts and statistics are irrelevent, just as with crime statistics and the perceptions of crime are so greatly different.

    Once a perception and view is attained, it is very hard to remove/change it, regardless of facts and statistics.

    While figures may show or even factually prove a decline in immigrants this fall will not correspond with a fall in perceptions and views, especially when there has been such a negative growth in views and perceptions of political truth, statistics and statements.

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  • 4. At 4:29pm on 05 May 2010, jobsagoodin wrote:

    'I think the figures suggest that the effect of non-EU jobs is declining....'

    and whose to say it wouldn't rise again at some point in the future if Labour or Lib Dems got into power ?

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  • 5. At 4:42pm on 05 May 2010, watriler wrote:

    Expect more EU immigrants from Latvia, Ireland and Greece escaping from the slash and burn policies their governments have visited on them.

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  • 6. At 5:12pm on 05 May 2010, Justin150 wrote:

    I will start by saying I have long believed that immigration, preferably controlled, is and always has been massively beneficially to the UK. What I think of the BNP is not repeatedly in public forums

    But it is worth picking up on one aspect of Mark's report. He stated that

    "615,000 new jobs were created...Roughly 200,000 went to non-EU workers; 275,000 were taken by EU migrants; the remainder, about 140,000"

    So what he is saying is that during a Brown boom year roughly 23% of new jobs went to Brits and 77% went to non Brits, or if you want to break it down further 23% to Brits, 45% to EU migrants and 32% to non EU migrants.

    So much for the "British workers for British jobs" slogan mouthed by Gordon B.

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  • 7. At 5:20pm on 05 May 2010, BluesBerry wrote:

    Well, there's a well-kept Labour' secret, isn’t there?
    The government under Gordon Brown has made very good progress in safeguarding "British jobs for British workers".
    A points-based system has been set up to give visas to non-EU workers only when UK residents do not have the right skills.
    I doubt that the Conservatives or the LibDems will do more than slightly tweak it, if they do anything.
    So, after all this talk about the uncontrolled avalanche of migration into the UK under Mr. Brown was just plain nonsense.

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  • 8. At 5:23pm on 05 May 2010, John Ellis wrote:

    If you work for Cadburys then do you work for an American workforce? as its no longer a British owned company.!
    define British job?
    most of the business around by us are fast expanding Asian business are these British jobs as they were founded by immigrants from outside the EU.
    Then we come down to Cannabis supposedly one of the larger industries that is supported by illegal immigration.
    British jobs for British farmers ;)

    The next point is our world standing and the countries we stand on..

    second and third world workers come to use legal or not to do the same jobs we exploit them for in their country of origin for up to 100 times the wage they are paid in sweat shops making our goods.

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  • 9. At 5:23pm on 05 May 2010, mrg17 wrote:

    Am I correct the countries covered by "EU" changes over the period of those stats - or is it all based on the current definition of EU?

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  • 10. At 5:27pm on 05 May 2010, MrWonderfulReality wrote:

    2. At 3:45pm on 05 May 2010, Sara wrote:

    Do you have any stats on how many ex-pats we have working a) in the EU and b) in other countries not part of the EU? I'd like to see how balanced that is.

    -------------------------------

    During the last UK recession I and most of those I worked with for many years in UK all worked in Holland and Germany. The numbers of Brits working abroad today is very substantial, especially in Europe.

    Thing is, myself and others were and are prepared to travel and do whats necessary to feed and support our familys, just as immigrants do the same when they travel to UK.

    It's not easy working great distance away, especially when you have a young family at home. You have to adapt to many things including different food, money, language and also fitting in with a different culture. You cant go out and constantly enjoy yourself because your money is needed at home, so life can be pretty restricted.

    I think the main issues should not be immigration but the failures of government to forward plan and provide the education and training that UK businesses actually need. So many degrees and courses are just useless and of no economic or social benefit. If a business operated in the same way it would soon get into severe difficulties.

    As well as mis-managed education/training, there has been huge and attrocious failure in the benefits system which has allowed growing numbers to avoid responsibility to economically maintain their own lives via work.

    It also seems to be standard proceedure for Government to take action long after an event or situation has become grossly overbearing and more often than not, change is inflicted and enforced at times of greater national hardship and also ultimately condemns, labels and tarnishes all with a deviant label, whether due or not.

    There are many many thousands of jobs available in UK that many Brits still wont do. We have many many thousands of seasonal labouring jobs picking foodstuffs from fields which pay much more than many local industrial jobs, but so many on benefits just refuse to do them.

    There are just so many excuses that are allowed to enable people to refuse work, its ridiculous.

    When we get our own house in order, which includes long term benefits claiments, then maybe an ignorant few would be more entitled to state their non valid and childish immature and nonsensical ignorant biased comments against immigrants.

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  • 11. At 5:29pm on 05 May 2010, GeoffWard wrote:

    Thanks, Mark.
    Its good to see that you read the postings and act on the information.
    Faith restored!

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  • 12. At 6:32pm on 05 May 2010, smell the coffee wrote:

    good piece Mark which clearly demonstrates that those "nasty foreigners" arent really pinching all our jobs. Living in London, its been pretty obvious to me that whole swathes of our service industries rely on cheap migrant labour to function as your average "indigenous brit" doesnt want to work hard for minimum wages.

    when i listen to those who espouse a tough immigration policy, they seem to have two arguments - one is the loss of british jobs to british people (which on the evidence in you piece is clearly bunkum) and a whinge about migrants taking "our" housing.

    The nub of the matter is that far too many people still seem to believe that they have a God-given right to subsidised housing. Wrong! It is about time our "indigenous" community woke up and realised they should stand on their own two feet and only rely on the state in time of real hardship.

    I welcome our migrant community and thank them for their valued contribution to our economy and society.

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  • 13. At 6:35pm on 05 May 2010, John wrote:

    You can argue percentages, but within all this is that "expansion" of the economy is in fact building for immigrants in one form or another. I for one do not want to see an endless expansion of cities till we are all concrete and tarmac. When will it end? A reduction of 10 million in the total population would be a very good point to aim for.

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  • 14. At 6:49pm on 05 May 2010, Jeremy Owen-Lee wrote:

    The problem with the enforced EU policy for me is not the current status, although I do wonder about the economic benefits to the UK when many EU workers are not here to settle and make a new life, but as many in my locality are house sharing and sending the money home. I would like to see just how much money exits the UK for abroad.

    The real problem is about the near future. If the new Government does a really good job with our economy and jobs, and out performs other EU nations, then it will only add to the attraction for EU workers. I wonder how people will feel if we get another couple of million from Greece, Spain etc. Only time will tell i guess

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  • 15. At 7:07pm on 05 May 2010, Justin Staples wrote:

    Mark, some interesting stats thanks - I hope you have forwarded them to Nick Griffin already? As a topical aside, I think you'd really enjoy the second to last punch-line in this 2010 UK elections cartoon I spotted - it certainly (and unfortunately) summarises BNP's political stance on immigration... pretty apt I'd say given that it appears on a South Africa news blog of all places!

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  • 16. At 7:21pm on 05 May 2010, John Ellis wrote:

    I suppose its all down to were we choose to place our selves we opt for an ever growing economy, this needs an ever growing work force what would happen with immigration if we went for more relaxed economic growth? would we have as many people coming to britain to work?
    At the moment we are just reclimbing the toppling credit tower with our current growth governments trying to get banks to lend money with no lessons learned, minimum wages along side over inflated housing will cause another collapse in the financial markets.


    I say we are soon to call thin ice! especially if DC gets in.

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  • 17. At 7:27pm on 05 May 2010, Sagacity wrote:

    One factor that one has to bear in mind in a global jobs market is that the places that Brits get jobs abroad doesn't necessarily match up with the nationalities we give jobs to. This means that the right might produce stats that say, for example, more EU workers come here than we send over there and this is terrible but when you look at non-EU countries then you find it's the other way about so overall it's not terrible at all. As far as I can see the UK actually does rather well in the global jobs market. There are no official stats, I can find, for Brits working abroad but using emmigration figures (people who leave for at least a year) then you're looking at about 6.5 million and it's not people going abroad to retire, (in 2004 only 17.5% were classed as retired/carers). The number of Non UK born workers here is about 3.3 million. So what is actually a British success story gets turned by the right into a failure.
    Some stats use non-UK born rather than nationality, this is a measurement that has to be used carefully, my favorite example is that Boris Johnson falls into this category having been born in the USA.

    Also the latest ONS statistics show the number of foreign workers, particularly those from the A8 countries, coming here is declining. In the end these are people looking to work and if we haven't got the work for them then they tend not to come.

    A8 = central and eastern European countries

    Long-term immigration of A8 citizens declined in the year to June 2009 with a fall of 32 per cent

    Long-term emigration of A8 citizens very slightly increased in the year to June 2009, (58,000 in the year to June 2009 compared with 43,000 in the year to June 2008)

    628,000 National Insurance numbers (NINos) were allocated to non-UK nationals in the year to June 2009, a decline of 15 per cent on the year to June 2008.

    186,000 NINos were allocated to A8 nationals in the year to June 2009, 36 per cent fewer than in the year to June 2008

    In the year to June 2009 the number of workers from A8 countries successfully applying to work as an employee in the UK via the Worker Registration Scheme (WRS) was 118,000. This compared with 199,000 in the year to June 2008, a fall of 40 per cent.

    The number of applications for asylum, excluding dependants, was 30 per cent lower in the fourth quarter of 2009.

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  • 18. At 8:08pm on 05 May 2010, Zay wrote:

    I speak fluent French and, like many of my friends would like to work in France. However, there are restrictions on applying for National Insurance numbers, 1 yr residence qualifications for access to the Health Service and non-French nationals are barred from the civil service and many public sector jobs. There are also very tough written language requirements, and there are very few subsidised classes.

    Here in the UK advertise FREE language classes to EU immigrants worth several hundred pounds. We hand EU immigrants entitlement to the NHS as soon as they arrive, and if they have children under five they may get priority treatment over UK national adults. At least in London, we positively discriminate to immigrants in public sector employment.

    Of course EU migrants choose to come to the UK rather than to tougher regimes such as France. They weigh up what is advertised and take the best offer. Then UK residents are told we need to subsidise their and their children's "integration".

    Also French government and employment offices offer substantial practical assistance to French nationals interested in working elsewhere in the EU, thus relieving some of the pressure on their own job market. Try asking anyone in the DWP or JobCentre plus for substantial information and support to find work elsewhere in Europe.

    Of course EU immigration is good for business owners because it drives down wages. Immigrants can get their tax back when they leave or pay it to their country of origin - they aren't forced to pay for the Government's mistakes.

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  • 19. At 9:10pm on 05 May 2010, ecolizzy wrote:

    According to Eurostat figures 287,600 Brits work in Europe and 1,020,000 europeans work in Britain. We are 93,500 sq miles, and Europe 1,660,000 sq miles, I'm surprised we manage to fit so many people in.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2010/7679514/General-Election-2010-Labour-accused-of-misleading-voters-over-EU-migration.html

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  • 20. At 9:54pm on 05 May 2010, David L wrote:

    You don't seem to explicitly point out, Mark, that net job creation over the period, from your final figure, appears to be negative over the period for British workers and distinctly positive for immigrants. Surely this is noteworthy on a discussion about immigration and the labour force? While I agree that the percentage analysis is probably better, given all of the external factors, your figures do seem to play into the hands of those suggesting "immigrants are getting all of the jobs." I personally don't have a problem with that, provided we adapt to cope with the negatives of immigration, rather than just making a song and dance about the positives.

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  • 21. At 00:12am on 06 May 2010, Gea Vox wrote:

    The article talks about British workers, but what about our local youths? Shell-suited chavs in their baseball caps, who turn down job after job, week after week, they are called and recalled by the Job Centre to be asked "why did you not take this or that job?" and there's always a reason, like 'it doesn't pay enough' or 'it's too far'...

    Stop going on about "immigrants" stealing jobs, as I see it, the taxi drivers, shop keepers and the other people who come here to work pay taxes that are keeping our lazy, useless, drug dealing Chav youth who get council houses at 21 because they already have 3-4 kids! Yet they have cars and mobile 'phones, how can they afford them? Either they steal the money or the stuff they flash around.

    Well, I am a middle-aged woman and when I walk past a group of white youths I am afraid; Asian youth, on the other hand, are very respectful make way for me; just as I ask myself 'should I cross the road', I hear some quick words in a foreign language and lo! they make way for me and sometimes even smile.

    Local Chavs, on the other hand, - black and white - wear their pants way below their bottoms and look like dirty, thieving, skiving, violent, foul-mouthed scroungers. Yes, they are white, like me, but the similarity ends there. I am ashamed that these leeches DARE be racist! Give me the immigrants any day of the week! I feel safer around them. I am SCARED of English youth!

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  • 22. At 03:53am on 06 May 2010, widdow wrote:

    Nice stats but where I live there is a warehouse distribution centre out of Two Thousand jobs 80% have gone to EU workers. I have a job else where, but I look at my children and think what’s for them.

    The argument that we have one Million brits working overseas dont wash with me, there not low wage shop floor workers there IT pro,s, bankers, oilwell workers, and the like.

    And BNP bashing dont work either the jobless is a toll on all tax payers and comes out of the coffers and its EMPTY might be rude but some people should wake up and smell the coffee. And shouting its law is all well and good well the referendum we got promised and never had helped that,George well got it wrong its going to be worse.

    And to 21 allthough at 50 I sympothise, its called social engineering imagine comming to the end of your school years with no hope.

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  • 23. At 05:07am on 06 May 2010, crash wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 24. At 05:22am on 06 May 2010, SouthsNZ wrote:

    Yes a lot of us Brits do work abroad. I've been working in New Zealand since November 2007.

    The difference is, when we apply for a work permit/visa, we are thoroughly screened health wise & criminal records wise. Plus we are counted in & out of the country. Same applies in Australia.

    In UK, since Labour came to power in 1997, Immigration has risen dramatically. Also it has been uncontrolled. No screening, nothing.

    Controlled immigration is a good thing. UK lacks control. Not just in immigration.

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  • 25. At 08:58am on 06 May 2010, Mabey wrote:

    Your statistics do not reflect the reality we all experience...

    Travel to any town in Britain and you will find a large number of imigrants.

    Work on an IT project - and it will be staffed by Indians who have now gained citizenship or most companies now outsource IT to India, whose staff enter the country on Visas. There is no skills shortage just cheap labour.

    Manufacturing has been outsourced to China, who are being trained in the UK on how to adhere to ISO quality standards.

    A small overpopulated country which has had to introduce a vast amount of legislation and agencies to address social integration should question the wisdom of importing cheap labour from anywhere in the world.

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  • 26. At 09:09am on 06 May 2010, jon112dk wrote:

    Two points here Mark...

    Firstly you are discussing people in/people out trends. Just at the moment these are influenced by the double dip recession. Equally, as you point out, the really big change happened a few years ago and may happen again if/when the economy improves. Any normal person walking through an English city will not need statistics to see that the whole structure of society has been changed by mass imigration followed by high birth rates from the same people.

    More importantly though I think you need to start accepting that your figures always cover the lawful movement/employment of people. For example eu citizens, lawfully in the country, will declare themselves and be recorded. Persons unlawfully in the country or unlawfully employed will not.

    The biggest route into the country for non-eu people is overstaying - enter saying you are here to study/visit family etc then just don't go back. Are any of these on your stats? How about people who enter (eg) Holland, stay long enough to gain eu citizenship, then use it to move to England - are they in your eu or non-eu figures?

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  • 27. At 09:56am on 06 May 2010, polly_gone wrote:

    #26 jon112uk

    This comment is important as it highlights what happens when an economy does well compared to many other economies and when it may be doing well compared to only one or a few other economies. Recessions do not hit everyone the same; you can hardly be worse off if you have no home, no prospects, and only a basic instinct to survive driving you.

    We also know, because we have anecdotal evidence, there are many employers of migrant labour who are hidden from official figures simply because tracking is so difficult. At one level or another these "dark" figures have always been around, but they gain in strength when people are desperate to "get here", and there will always be people desperate to "get here". Learning to keep a tight tongue comes easily when you know your life is not worth a dime.

    As #26 states it is very easy to have the evidence of our own eyes. When you do not have a chip on your shoulder because everything is fine then you do not notice the different cultures in quite the same way as you do when all is not fine, no matter what your original culture is.

    I am reminded of the sad story of a Chinese man who had worked legally and continuously in UK Chinese restaurants for thirty years. He raised and supported his family with honest sweat and labour. Finally his employment ceased as the restaurant businesses collapsed. On signing on for benefit it was discovered via his sons and a daughter that his only language was Mandarin. Had he really integrated into the UK? Up until that moment did it really matter?

    Migrant stories retold via statistics are a dangerous way to play a deadly serious game.

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  • 28. At 10:08am on 06 May 2010, Dr Prod wrote:

    What is missing from the data are the type of jobs undertaken. Very few of these migrant workers are professionals, most are manual workers and this disproportionately affects the working class. If the spread was equal, ie there were as many lawyers, doctors, dentists, judges, solicitors etc coming in and working as there were manual workers then the spread of lower salaries etc would affect all social groups. This is why it is deemed immigration is unfair. The middle classes benefit from lower wages and cheap staff whilst the working classes see their jobs taken and wages cut. Yes, there is an arguement that many immigrants do work that indiginous Brits don't want but are you comfortable paying taxes to keep these people on benefits instead of them working? I'm not and I would welcome any law that prevents immigration to this country unless we have close to zero unemployment. The cost benefits of immigration never seems to include the costs of keeping British people on benefits whilst the jobs they should be doing are undertaken by immigrants. I'd rather have zero indiginous unemployment and a much lower benefits bill that a reliance on immigrant labour that benefits business whilst ensuring tax payers foot the benefits bill.

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  • 29. At 11:15am on 06 May 2010, Shaunie Babes wrote:

    21. At 00:12am on 06 May 2010, Gea Vox wrote:
    "The article talks about British workers, but what about our local youths? Shell-suited chavs in their baseball caps, who turn down job after job, week after week, they are called and recalled by the Job Centre to be asked "why did you not take this or that job?" and there's always a reason, like 'it doesn't pay enough' or 'it's too far'... "
    -----------
    If you think Job Centres actually offer people jobs then you haven't visited one in the last 30 years.



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  • 30. At 11:55am on 06 May 2010, TALAS wrote:

    I believe that immigration is not an economic issue for Britain. Economically speaking Britain is gaining more as compared to loosing wheather it is immigration or emigration. Immigrants pay more taxes as compared to the benefits they do qualify for. Brits working abroad receive better treatment and perks generally speaking.

    Brits feel a little marginalized at some places due to the presence of immigrants. I believe that if Brits who live on benefits and refuse work are given benefits in the form of a job then they would fill the place of a migrant worker. In one way there would be less immigrants and more Brits.

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  • 31. At 12:25pm on 06 May 2010, Shaunie Babes wrote:

    10. At 5:27pm on 05 May 2010, MrWonderfulReality wrote:
    "During the last UK recession I and most of those I worked with for many years in UK all worked in Holland and Germany. The numbers of Brits working abroad today is very substantial, especially in Europe.
    Thing is, myself and others were and are prepared to travel and do whats necessary to feed and support our familys, just as immigrants do the same when they travel to UK."
    --------
    There is a massive difference between a British workers going abroad and immmigrants coming to the UK. British workers work abroad because they are generally highly skilled. Immigrant workers come to the UK because they are unskilled but have a massive increase in wages and benefits by working here. British workers are spread over dozens of countries. Immigrants are contained in just the UK. British workers don't change the very nature of countries they work in. Immigration have changed whole British communites. British workers don't expect to be given free education,social and health care in their host countries. Foreign workers do.
    I'm sure millions of people from this country would work abroad if they were offered the same terms as Eastern Europeans are - effectively 30K for an unskilled job
    ------------
    "There are many many thousands of jobs available in UK that many Brits still wont do. "
    -----------
    This really means won't do it for the money.British workers were quite happy to be labourers, farm workers, and production line staff. The only thing that has changed is you now have a pool of cheap labour working for money that ordinary British people can't afford to live on. A local farm packaging company used to employ about 100 British people from the local town. They now employ 100 eastern Europeans. Did 100 British workers suddenly decide not to come to work one day ? No, it was cheaper for the company to employ foreign agency labour (will little rights) on a fraction of the pay and arrange for them to stay six to a room. Effectively they expect the state to have 100 people on benefits to boost their profits. You have to ask who are the real benefit scroungers ?

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  • 32. At 12:31pm on 06 May 2010, Shaunie Babes wrote:

    No country on Earth needs to import labour unless there is a skills shortage of a lack of unemployed people. This hasn't been the case in this country for at least two generations.
    PS. Do you have the immigration fiqures for Japan or any country in East Asia ? No one has told them they can't have successful economies with mass immigration

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  • 33. At 12:35pm on 06 May 2010, Shaunie Babes wrote:

    "30. At 11:55am on 06 May 2010, TALAS wrote:
    I believe that immigration is not an economic issue for Britain. Economically speaking Britain is gaining more as compared to loosing wheather it is immigration or emigration. Immigrants pay more taxes as compared to the benefits they do qualify for."
    -------------
    And want about the benefits of the British worker they displace ?
    It costs several thousand pounds a year to keep Britsh worker on the dole. It costs the taxpayer nothing to have an immigrant stay in his own country.

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  • 34. At 12:41pm on 06 May 2010, Thinker10 wrote:

    I think this article is a little more reasonable than what I have been reading and hearing lately. Do British people really believe that their economic and social problems are due to immigration? Is it true that low skilled non-British people are "stealing" jobs from British people? If it is true, why do I usually see low skilled British people employed and high skilled non-British people unemployed?

    Do British people really believe that foreigners are "desperate" to get to the UK? Isn'it a bit arrogant to think that the UK has the best jobs, the best housing, the best hospitals, the best society, the best economy, etc.?

    People come here for different reasons and contribute to this society in different ways. I am not the owner of the truth. Do British people really believe the immigrants are the ones to blame for their social and economic problems?

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  • 35. At 1:03pm on 06 May 2010, Jeremy Owen-Lee wrote:

    Politicians from all main parties seem to shy away from this issue and yet, it is a situation that alarms many, including immigrants themselves, some of whom are struggling to access public services to help them integrate and settle. So for a moment at least, spare a thought for them.

    Anyone who has ever spoken out about the issue seems to be immediately labeled a racist, as if somehow the two are linked. This is simply not true and I would argue in the strongest terms this view should be challenged. Having been an unsuccessful immigrant to a foreign country myself I can see both sides, and if anything, I was for a multicultural society but now I have many, many reservations.

    The USA have a successful immigration policy which is managed, i.e. controlled and limited to minimize the impact on existing social fabric, public services and economic infrastructure. We in the UK on the other hand, struggle to even measure the physical numbers and it begs the question, how do you manage that you don’t or can’t measure? A big question for me is: if we are not managing immigration in any way, how do we know where and how to apply resources to help with integration. Without managing integration immigration for immigration sakes is surely a pointless and expensive process and one which leads to many problems including the erosion of the social fabric and identity dilution of the host nation. Ironically, potentially lost are the very qualities that probably made it attractive to immigrants in the first place.

    I have heard the many arguments that immigration culturally enriches our nation by bringing needed skills (Doctors, dentists, etc), and new cuisine and philosophies, for example. Cultural enrichment assumes every effort is made to integrate those new people, which clearly isn’t happening in Britain. It also assumes that only elements of a foreign culture that are palatable to British taste are brought here. So, it appears we only want certain aspects of a foreign culture and are aghast and offended when an immigrant community wants, what for them is normal and in their culture, traditional.

    Is it not therefore unfair and somewhat naive of us to be upset when for example Indian Hindu’s request funeral pyres for disposing of their dead, or when Muslims want to build a mosque in your area, so they can call their faithful to prayer? Also the debate on Sharia Law being adopted in the UK caused some uproar. As yet a further example, in some African cultures, female castration is still practiced, which from a British sense of perspective is horrific and barbaric, yet normal to those to whom it is part of their tradition. I mention these issues to illustrate my next point. At what point do we draw the line and say what is, and what isn’t acceptable in Britain? And without some effort being directed at integration, how do we teach those seeking to settle here where those lines are drawn. Or should we insist all immigrants should adopt the “British” way of life and lose the benefits cultural enrichment? Perhaps even a bigger question should be, is it really possible to properly integrate immigrants into a host nation and protect a national identity? The USA seem to succeed in this area, perhaps this is evidential and a particularly strong argument for actually managing the whole area of immigration.

    One of the counter arguments against cultural enrichment is related to the influx of the criminal element from foreign shores. Without the immigration controls that are seen in the USA, Australia and New Zealand for example, it’s a mathematical certainty that a proportion of all those seeking to settle here from within the EU, will be criminals. I think it is also fair to assume that the criminal proportion of all new immigrants will also be higher than the norm (in that country), attracted as are genuine migrants by the wealthier state of our economy, rich pickings so to speak. So perhaps, a higher crime rate in Britain is one of the prices we all must pay for the present policy. Already we have seen many reports about foreign gangs defrauding the benefits system, with one gang responsible for a benefit loss to Britain of over £500,000.

    Another question aligned to the above, is to what degree of integration we should aim for? Even in a managed environment such as the USA, you still see “China Towns”, Russian Quarters, Jewish areas and congregations from all nationalities. Therefore one of the prices we must pay for being multicultural is the changing identity of towns and cities whereby the cultural demography changes with the influx of immigrants. The danger here is, if this process continues unabated, then we also have to accept the changing identity of Britain, in other words we have to accept the loss or dilution of our national identity.

    We are, all of us, just people and with the human condition as it is, people will seek the security of similarity and like mindedness. Nearly all immigrant communities in any host country, tend to flock together and form their own communities. This sadly must inhibit any real form of social integration. As an example and somewhat ironically, the British all over Spain have formed their own communities and barring a tiny minority, many migrants, despite living there over 20 years speak only a few words of Spanish. It is no wonder many Spanish people resent them being there and no wonder why many British people resent the less integrated immigrant communities here. So perhaps spare another thought for the ex-pats. My major concern here though is in the UK, the rising tide of resentment that seems to be brewing, and I only worry this will lead to more racially motivated unrest and violence, as recessions hit jobs and as time and the continued influx marches on, this groundswell of opinion will surely only gain momentum.

    So unless we somehow force integration, which is near impossible, even more so when we cannot control the influx, we therefore have to accept that immigrant communities all over the UK (from all home countries) will be forming their own communities and pressing for the continuation of their traditions as opposed to adopting ours.

    Another big question is, do we as a people have a choice? Well at the moment our membership of the EU forces an open door policy so we cannot measure or manage, or even attempt any form of meaningful social integration.

    The policy of accepting mass immigration, is in all honesty an experimental one. At the outset no-one really understood the impact this policy would have on the UK and as we are not managing or measuring this process, how do we know if the experiment is working out?

    It is clear to me at least that to enjoy living in a Multi-cultural society comes at a price, or many prices. Higher crime rates, an increased burden on the social fabric, Health Services, UK social services and of course the economy (the UK tax payers have to pay to support European immigration policies), the changing nature and identity of our towns and cities, dilution of our own sense of identity are just a few of the prices we have to pay. With the level of debt Britain has currently, there is some economic sense in bringing the open door policy to an end.

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  • 36. At 1:15pm on 06 May 2010, mambal06 wrote:

    25. At 08:58am on 06 May 2010, Mabey wrote:
    Your statistics do not reflect the reality we all experience...

    Travel to any town in Britain and you will find a large number of imigrants.

    Work on an IT project - and it will be staffed by Indians who have now gained citizenship or most companies now outsource IT to India, whose staff enter the country on Visas. There is no skills shortage just cheap labour.

    Manufacturing has been outsourced to China, who are being trained in the UK on how to adhere to ISO quality standards.

    A small overpopulated country which has had to introduce a vast amount of legislation and agencies to address social integration should question the wisdom of importing cheap labour from anywhere in the world.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Just a quick question Mabey. Are those Indians working in IT Sector are paid less than you or any other British worker? if not, how can you call them cheap labour?

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  • 37. At 1:22pm on 06 May 2010, J Workerbee wrote:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/default.stm

    what are the bbc thinking?

    UK election underway, then why an image of one asian woman passing a polling station.

    PC gone mad.

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  • 38. At 1:32pm on 06 May 2010, D wrote:

    I live in a capitalist world and therefore their is no such thing as a British JOb for British Workers, no it is A JOB for A Worker and the best cost effective and professional performance is what is required to make this country great, not the 5,000 or so alll whaite estates up and down the country which harbours indigenous british people hell bent or procreating and funded by the tax payer! And, i must add that this country is less and less educated and that will effect the productivity of the country and more and more educated people will be coming from India and China as they will have the knowledge! im all for competition but can you handle it?

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  • 39. At 1:34pm on 06 May 2010, Carl Showalter wrote:

    5. At 4:42pm on 05 May 2010, watriler wrote:

    Expect more EU immigrants from Latvia, Ireland and Greece escaping from the slash and burn policies their governments have visited on them.

    Yes, cower in fear because the gargantuan country of Latvia (2.3 million, less than Wales) is going to spill over with a tsunami employment- and housing-stealing workers..

    What's with the Irish bashing? do we even discriminate against indigenous people from the British Isles now?

    7. At 5:20pm on 05 May 2010, BluesBerry wrote:

    I doubt that the Conservatives or the LibDems will do more than slightly tweak it, if they do anything.

    unless you've actually paid some attention to anything over the last month, you'll know that the Lib Dems are *the only party* to advocate exit controls. so we could, for the first time ever be able to accurately account for immigration in the UK.

    21. At 00:12am on 06 May 2010, Gea Vox wrote:

    The article talks about British workers, but what about our local youths? Shell-suited chavs in their baseball caps, who turn down job after job, week after week, they are called and recalled by the Job Centre to be asked "why did you not take this or that job?" and there's always a reason, like 'it doesn't pay enough' or 'it's too far'...

    Just like the documentary in the Fens - local Peterboro youths wouldn't take veg picking jobs almost exclusively staffed by eastern Europeans, because it's "beneath them". but they did turn up at the JC with cans of stella. living the dream, I see. at least eastern Europeans are motivated enough and blessed with sufficient initiative to proactively leave their own countries, take on a huge challenge and try to better their and their families' lot.

    Stop going on about "immigrants" stealing jobs, as I see it, the taxi drivers, shop keepers and the other people who come here to work pay taxes that are keeping our lazy, useless, drug dealing Chav youth who get council houses at 21 because they already have 3-4 kids! Yet they have cars and mobile 'phones, how can they afford them? Either they steal the money or the stuff they flash around.

    Immigrants may well leave one way or another, but we're stuck with our wasters as we can't send them anywhere. they're a greater, more long-term problem. I guess we used to have huge cataclysmic wars in the past to put some of these people to actual use. we need to find another way.

    Well, I am a middle-aged woman and when I walk past a group of white youths I am afraid; Asian youth, on the other hand, are very respectful make way for me; just as I ask myself 'should I cross the road', I hear some quick words in a foreign language and lo! they make way for me and sometimes even smile.

    I'm a 6ft+, 15 stone bloke, and literally the only trouble I get these days is from short, drunk, white British guys, wanting to have a pop at the big guy. funny thing is I never get Pakistani lads doing this..

    ..or Poles, Czechs, Germans, Indians, Arabs of any description and all the rest. they may come over in their droves, steal our jobs and benefits and housing and seats on the bus, but you're almost certainly never going to have to use violence in self defence against them. I wish the same could be said for our seemingly limitless supply of indigenous darwin award candidates who don't like my "dirty looks" or whatever.

    Local Chavs, on the other hand, - black and white - wear their pants way below their bottoms and look like dirty, thieving, skiving, violent, foul-mouthed scroungers. Yes, they are white, like me, but the similarity ends there. I am ashamed that these leeches DARE be racist! Give me the immigrants any day of the week! I feel safer around them. I am SCARED of English youth!

    there's nowt wrong wi baggy pants, I'm sorry. they're refreshingly comfy in the gents department, if you get the cut of my jib..

    please judge them by their (in)actions only, or we'll be banning burkas for the sake of a handful of people next.

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  • 40. At 1:59pm on 06 May 2010, GeoffWard wrote:

    Can we now have an examination of the national statistics to examine:
    (1) Immigration of the 'non-productive' - dependent adults, children
    (2) 'Refugees'
    .........
    What people seem to under-appreciate is that immigration/emigration/nett movement does not address the perceived problem. The statistics we are looking at are *of the year*, whereas the perception is of the accumulation of years. This includes immigrants that become 'citizens' but do not divest themselves of their original culture, and it includes the 'compound interest' component of expanding and extending the families of the original immigrant. The issue is the perception of years of accumulation aggregated largely into the poorer regions of our cities.
    Within one generation we are seeing/have seen the dominant culture in each one of our cities move (at a faster or slower pace depending on proximity to London and/or the location of the initial nuclei of immigrant communities), to displace the indiginous culture.
    This may be a spin-off from golbalisation and EU legislation, but the rate-of-change exceeds the indiginous population's capacity to accommodate it with equinimity.

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  • 41. At 2:05pm on 06 May 2010, D wrote:

    ho ho ho merry xmas! free gifts are for xmas, if you want a job and want to succeed in a capitalist country then you'd better compete for the job, i have a first class degree, but when i moved back up north i went to the local mill and got a job in seconds! and then looked for a more suitable job rather than sign on, but lots of white brits leave school and sign on first before even thinking about getting a job or education! and thats a fact!

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  • 42. At 2:26pm on 06 May 2010, Carl Showalter wrote:

    31. At 12:25pm on 06 May 2010, Shaunie Babes wrote:

    There is a massive difference between a British workers going abroad and immmigrants coming to the UK. British workers work abroad because they are generally highly skilled. Immigrant workers come to the UK because they are unskilled but have a massive increase in wages and benefits by working here.

    You're so wrong it's funny. What about all the foreign NHS workers? all the Polish dentists? all the Pakistani GPs? all the translators from around the world? the software development lecturers I had at uni were from Iran, Russia and France. I suppose they're all unskilled?

    it's strange you call them unskilled. most of them speak better English than most Brits will ever speak another language. language isn't a skill, it's just a noise people make?

    Go to Amsterdam, you'll meet scores of British hod carriers, scaffolders and general labourers living and working out there. are they skilled?

    I met a British guy from London who was living in Barcelona who said he was just "bumming around on the dole, selling a bit of charlie to make ends meet". claiming foreign benefits and selling drugs on the sly is a real skill if you're British? on the nation's behalf, I implore you to raise the bar slightly higher. lower wouldn't really be difficult.

    British workers are spread over dozens of countries. Immigrants are contained in just the UK.

    Immigration only affects the UK? I suppose Arizona passes draconian immigration laws for the fun of it? Switzerland deports Nigerians back to Lagos for kicks? those African guys in Barcelona selling the fake handbags? I guess they're actually Spanish? since when did the UK become the only country with immigration?

    British workers don't change the very nature of countries they work in.

    apart from the opening of English and Irish pubs everywhere, supermarkets dedicating aisles to British produce for British expats, Switzerland considering adding English as a fifth official language? there's even a flipping Paddington the Bear offer at the supermarket! oh yeah, he was actually from darkest Peru..

    Immigration have changed whole British communites.

    "Immigration have changed" - "has changed". so what? now your neck of the woods has a curry house, chinese takeaway and a western union money transfer shop as well as a chippy. man up and get over it.

    British workers don't expect to be given free education,social and health care in their host countries. Foreign workers do.

    excuse me, but in my host country I fully expect to get education, social and health care to the same extent as any indigenous local, and law here dictates that I will receive said things.

    is your statement British stoicism, or arrogance in reverse?

    I'm sure millions of people from this country would work abroad if they were offered the same terms as Eastern Europeans are - effectively 30K for an unskilled job

    a labourer in Switzerland gets the equivalent of £35k, with lower taxes factored in. where are all the millions of British labourers then? oh yeah, they don't speak German, French or Italian so they're sat at home, claiming benefits, doing nothing.

    This really means won't do it for the money.British workers were quite happy to be labourers, farm workers, and production line staff.The only thing that has changed is you now have a pool of cheap labour working for money that ordinary British people can't afford to live on.

    Utter fallacy. Cast your mind back to the Fens documentary. Poles were taking home £25k+ (minumum wage + performance bonus) with overtime. if that's not enough for you to live off outside of London, you're doing something wrong.

    A local farm packaging company used to employ about 100 British people from the local town. They now employ 100 eastern Europeans. Did 100 British workers suddenly decide not to come to work one day ? No, it was cheaper for the company to employ foreign agency labour (will little rights) on a fraction of the pay and arrange for them to stay six to a room. Effectively they expect the state to have 100 people on benefits to boost their profits. You have to ask who are the real benefit scroungers ?

    so blame the agency. I'm sure the agency wasn't able to employ people in the UK at below UK minimum wage, so thereby any incentive to hire foreign labour is nullified. if they did undercut the minimum wage, it should really be a criminal matter involving the agency.

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  • 43. At 3:24pm on 06 May 2010, Lewis Fitzroy wrote:

    Any Pie chart can mean anything you want it to? Where I live most of the jobs in building industry are done by Eastern europeans, I know skilled british workers who cant' get any job? so are all the factorys jobs and care work and many lower payed jobs that the british workers use to have? I was told that one of our pounds is worth 3 ,in they country and many of them dont pay tax??? I know a small business man, who employed 4 eastern europeans who were very good at they jobs, but as soon as the tax man called at his place never seen them again? How much is this costing the U.K.? How many small business are tax dodgers'?illegals are agency workers or work in Crime here. The skilled workers are needed by they own countries much more than us.

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  • 44. At 3:37pm on 06 May 2010, toni49 wrote:

    25. At 08:58am on 06 May 2010, Mabey wrote:

    "Your statistics do not reflect the reality we all experience..."

    You're right, its such a shame when facts get in the way of a good moan!

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  • 45. At 3:38pm on 06 May 2010, D wrote:

    Just a quick question Mabey. Are those Indians working in IT Sector are paid less than you or any other British worker? if not, how can you call them cheap labour?


    No they are not cheap they are educated, which unfortuantely is what this country is not producing, the education standards are cheap and given away, and when these so called graduates hit the job market they are found wanting!

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  • 46. At 3:59pm on 06 May 2010, Jade wrote:

    I am a carer for people with Alzheimer's, i am not a racist and work with a number of different nationalities, however im afraid to say that foreign workers coming here to work ARE driving our wages down, i work for £5.85 per hour the same as everyone else!! i have been a carer at 18 years old and earned more money back in the 80s, as many home are privatised and not NHS run anymore, it allows them to pay such a poor wage, and im taxed on that amount to, i also lost my previous job as a Studhand to polish workers, they worked for a full week, for the amount of money i got for four days £35 per night, there is soo much competition in jobs, and the foreigners will do them cheaper and take less wages which have driven down the amount we get, ive always worked hard for my money, but this is an insult, and sometimes i see why people refuse such poor pay, for working 30 hours a week, i am £59 pounds a week better off than being on benefits, you say it dosnt make a difference, well it does make a huge difference

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  • 47. At 4:06pm on 06 May 2010, Monday Drinker wrote:

    Stats only give a narrow view of any issue.
    Bottom line is there are:
    1) too many immigrants in this country overall and
    2) too many of the wrong sort of immigrants.
    The stats hide a myriad of social and economic problems caused by these 2 facts.

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  • 48. At 4:49pm on 06 May 2010, kannan wrote:

    Hello Mark Eastons,

    This article through some lights about the migrant in all category, non-eu migrants are struggle a lot in the recessions it's really true, getting a job in britain is not a easy thing, by the news and statistics says recession is over but IT'S NOT YET OVER? People who are readin this article please understand your job prospects before arrival to uk, don't think about the visa, if you have a right job with righ earning in home country please stay there for somee time understand the reall things then make the decision. NON-EU Migrants please understand the reallity.

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  • 49. At 6:04pm on 06 May 2010, tc wrote:

    Good debate ...because it makes you go....Mmmmm......the kind of response our politicians NEVER have to this subject.
    Something like 80% of 'new' jobs created in the UK in recent years have gone to immigrants/migrants .........Mmmmm
    2 million unemployed in Britain....2 million legal/illegal immigrants in the UK.......Mmmm
    Because successive Governments have NOT supported our industrial base or agriculture, prefering instead to invest heavily in commercial banking / finance etc I reckon high unemployment is here to stay for the very reasons encompassed in this forum.
    As a nation we need to start MAKING something again ...and it HAS to be a bit more imaginative than that crass phrase .....'the Green Economy'.
    Numbers coming in from Europe may be leveling out but that still leaves an awful lot of people taking up jobs that would, were they not here, drastically cut down our unenployment figures.
    So often it is quoted that Brits don't want the jobs going....undoubtably because many Brits are nice and cosy on befits........Mmmmm. Well, our dumb politicians how many brain cells does it take to sort that one out?
    We, as a nation, need VERY clear and transparent statistics regarding immigrants coming into the UK ...for without comparing how many have come in during the past 15 years and comparing this with current trends we cannot PLAN for the FUTURE and that is truly worrying.
    Finally our NEW government needs to go back to Europe and say 'enough is enough'......we (Europe) need to RETHINK this 'Open Door ' policy. If they don't listen then we need to question our position in what is already a crumbly Europe.
    Something is not right.......the pieces don't fit. We need a CONTROLLED immigration/migration policy in the UK and we have not had one for 15 years.

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  • 50. At 6:10pm on 06 May 2010, Jade wrote:

    Too true tc..ive always wondered why this country dosnt adapt more of the ways of the Channel Isle's ideas??? it seems to work for them so why not for us?? not just for work, the NHS and Schools are busting at the seams, need for change this is interesting im looking forward to hearing others opinions on this too??
    http://www.cab.org.je/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=91&Itemid=66

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  • 51. At 6:15pm on 06 May 2010, nick nichols wrote:

    I guess you cant argue with straight statistics-they are either right or wrong. But what always bothers me on immigration, is not the workers statistics but the settlement ones. Those that come to stay,in other words to settle. Statistics here, surprisingly seem very vague. A worker will pay tax-I have no problem with that. But this trait of a person arriving for settlement and them uncle tom cobbeley and all following on; that is not on and is part of the immigration friction that we have. Also, since the "commonwealth" is now historical, why do places like India,Pakistan,bangladesh have any rights to come here? What is that basis and does it need to change.?

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  • 52. At 6:45pm on 06 May 2010, Rulechangecrazy wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 53. At 01:04am on 07 May 2010, jkjerome wrote:

    "Basically migrants are mainly doing the jobs we Brits think are 'below' us anyway"
    What offensive rubbish. Who do you think did these jobs before? The only reason British people would "stop" doing a job en masse was if the salary was driven so low by deliberate employment of immigrants as to force them to seek alternative employment, or if that sector of employment became so dominated by immigrant workers that they didnt get a look in any more - e.g. taxi drivers.
    I'm afraid (47) is spot on. There's been no plausible explanation given to the British people over the last 6 decades as to why immigration has been allowed in such vast uncontrolled numbers. Whole cities and towns have changed unrecognisably overnight. British jobs have not gone to British people as a result. Quoting carefully selected statistics and repeating politician's platitudes or racist accusations on the subject doesn't address this issue at all.

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  • 54. At 03:21am on 07 May 2010, Graphis wrote:

    A couple of people have made comments about migrants doing seasonal work, while the British unemployed refuse to do such jobs. Having actually been unemployed, and done seasonal work, perhaps I can explain why this is the case:

    It's the benefits system that's at fault. When on benefits, I got a significant proportion of my rent paid (not all of it), plus around £50 per week to live on. The shortfall between what my rent actually was, and what housing benefits actually paid me, was precisely £50 per week. This, as you can imagine, was a problem: my choice was to either pay my rent in full, and live with no food, electricity or gas, or not pay my rent. As a result, I began to fall into arrears with my rent.

    You'd think, wouldn't you, that being offered some seasonal work would solve my problem? However, after earning a couple of grand for a few months work, and paying off my debts, I found that when the seasonal work came to an end, returning to the benefits system was a nightmare.

    The benefits system is simply not set up to cope with people who work on an occasional basis: it only works for people with no income at all. The system took what I'd earned for the 2-3 months I'd worked, and then extrapolated it to cover the rest of the year, even though I was no longer earning anything! This meant the amount of housing benefit and JSA I received for the following 6 months went down even further, putting me even deeper in debt than I was before I started work. Only when a review was undertaken did my benefits increase to their previous levels, but there's no back pay: I was left wishing I'd never taken seasonal work.

    I'm now working again, fortunately, but I'm still clearing the debts built up during that time.

    THIS is the reason the British unemployed won't take such jobs: it's simply not worth it, you end up actually being worse off overall, thanks to the benefits system. What we need is a benefits system that allows people to keep what they earn from seasonal or freelance work, until such a time as they get full-time employment again, instead of actually penalising them for working! It's this that puts people off from taking any job that isn't a full-time permanent job. It seems the only way to survive this faulty system is either screw it for as much as you can get, or work illegally. The honest ones, like me, just get screwed.

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  • 55. At 07:59am on 07 May 2010, oliver wrote:

    Do these figures take into account the impact of inter company transfers? I work in IT and it's got the stage at some of the offices I've been to that Indian Nationals out number EU members working at the organisation.

    These people contribute little directly to the UK economy, by that I mean they pay little in direct taxes and are not big consumers.

    I hope this topic will be addressed, but letters to several Conservative MPs reveal they miss the point entirely or even fully support this saturation, through Inter Company Transfer, of our skilled IT jobs.

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  • 56. At 09:08am on 07 May 2010, PLANETLONDON wrote:

    Bewildering indeed that EU migration is blessed by legislation - perhaps in line with how Australia and Canada and USA - to ensure the color remains right in these Four geographies.
    Bewildering indeed that migration - a fundamental human need - is denied based on color.
    For over 300 years, these four geographies were financed through finance obtained from Empire that was of a different color.
    During the period of emergence of these four geographies, and during internecine wars within the color of choice - world wars one and two - it was again the millions of soldiers from the Empire of the wrong colors that saved these geographies.
    Migration appears to be a right - if the color is right - in these four geographies. Inspite of internecine warfare with nations of Europe, legislation in these four lands appears to prevent migration from the wrong color. It is bewildering that these policies are being debated here to improve their efficacy in preventing the wrong colors from their fundamental rights to migrate to the very geographies which were incubated by the blood of their ancestors in several wars.
    All the heightened sensitivities from uncontrolled immigration is because UK has lost control to the EU in this matter - and is flooded by migrants from Europe, who constitute more 75 % of the migrants coming in thanks to Brown/Blair surrender to the EU.
    Well, with the Euro now destined for the rubbish heaps of history - perhaps once again, Europe looks set be messed up with internecine consequences.
    The wrong colored Empire has been blocked out.
    I hope we dont have to go back them for help in sorting another mess coming out the color we have preferred to associate with.
    Apart from the obvious wrong that I have explicitly argued, we must do what is right in the eyes of God Almighty, since often we find we cant do right in human eyes.
    The policies are morally reprehensible and indefensible as well.
    London and Britain became Great because of the "wrong" color - what has been legislated as the "right" color has been the root cause of all wars and trouble for Britain for 300 years or more. It is downright absurd to have surrendered our Sovereignty to the EU - thankfully as the Euro melts down, the madness of this foray , nay surrender, will become obvious.

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  • 57. At 12:26pm on 07 May 2010, MamaTatu wrote:

    I agree that migrants take away our jobs - they work illegally for below the minimum wage, they work upto 15 hours per day. The students are allowed to work about 20 hours per week but they work those hours legally and then they carry on, working illegally somewhere else too. And what is this nonsense that a student comes to this country to study and hopefully go back home, but nowadays the law allows their spouse, children (maybe the whole family) to come along with them and also allows the student's partner to work full-time, why? They should be back in their own country, working and supporting the student who is here in UK. I hope the new government will really tighten the immigration system.

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  • 58. At 12:54pm on 07 May 2010, phillipwest wrote:

    Most of us here in Poland don't think much about your immigration problems but many of are glad you are so open to immigration. Reading the posts here though I was struck by one of the early comments #6 pointed out that 77% of new jobs went to foreigners. A government that allowed that would be tarred and feathered in most societies. A wonder that Brown did as well as he did with that kind of record. I also know personnally a Russian girl who works as a nurse in your national health service and she says British citizens come last and new immigrant communities come first in allocation of resources. You English must have a sort of self loathing to allow this. Why?

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  • 59. At 1:38pm on 07 May 2010, ArgieBee wrote:

    Indian IT workers I have contacted who are here on employer sponsored visas get paid salaries between £6000 and £17000 a year. This is less than the minimum wage in many cases for the hours they have to work, but when your right to be in the country is controlled by your employer then you don't complain.

    There needs to be better protection of migrant workers from eastern europe and outside the EU. Bad employers will always abuse them and use them as cheap labour.

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  • 60. At 2:05pm on 07 May 2010, Jade wrote:

    Hiya no 58, you are correct!! i had this conversation with a Polish work collegue the other day, she said to me "why are you working in this job your British its such poor pay"!!! unfortunatly its not about self loathing, we repect othe people coming here and make friends etc etc. We have no choice, if we make a fuss we are called racists or bigots for expressing an opinion on foreign workers, so its easier to keep Calm and Carry on so to speak!! but you are right and in way i cannot blame others for wanting to come here, if i was offered a better paid job in a different country id go, theres nothing here anymore in my opinion, its Broken Britain :-(

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  • 61. At 2:12pm on 07 May 2010, bestoftherest wrote:

    Basically migrants are mainly doing the jobs we Brits think are 'below' us anyway.
    All the hype when there really isn't a problem after all!
    **

    Bless you :-) so thats it then is it..we can close the book on the issue...get a grip!

    I dont trust figures the BBC(left wing collaborators) quote & that doesn't include the amount of immigrants - legal & Illegal that have come into the country to rely on state handouts - make no mistake it is the biggest issue in this country right now..there is a clear agenda to make white people a minority in this country from the newly to be formed Laberals & you can rest assure the BBC will be peddling it for them!

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  • 62. At 2:15pm on 07 May 2010, bestoftherest wrote:

    Most of us here in Poland don't think much about your immigration problems**

    you must be one of the few polish people actually still living in Poland :-)

    That's quite funny...

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  • 63. At 2:23pm on 07 May 2010, bestoftherest wrote:

    LuftHamza what nationality are you?

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  • 64. At 2:34pm on 07 May 2010, ecolizzy wrote:

    #58 pwx You English must have a sort of self loathing to allow this

    Very good point pwx, no solidarity amongst the english as you can see, loyalty to each other is out the window here. That, and the total loathing of the English by Brrooonn and the Labour Government, who are not going to give up even now. ; )

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  • 65. At 2:36pm on 07 May 2010, bestoftherest wrote:

    Do British people really believe that foreigners are "desperate" to get to the UK? Isn'it a bit arrogant to think that the UK has the best jobs, the best housing, the best hospitals, the best society, the best economy, etc.?
    **

    No..not at all, isn't it very naive to think people are not desperate when they will go to any lengths in some cases to sneak into this country & risk their life in the process, why travel through so many 'safe' european countries on the way to get to Britain if not desperation?

    It needs to change..quickly..liberal PC thought control brigade - your time is running out..trust me..people won't be silenced anymore or classed as bigots for displaying national loyalty!

    You've had your chance & you've blown it & set the country back for years to come...get out!

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  • 66. At 2:42pm on 07 May 2010, Paul Russell wrote:

    Why not do a deal with the rest of the world. The UK takes all its people back from around the world and the rest of the world takes the forign nationals in the UK. Then we can all watch the UK go down the toilet.

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  • 67. At 2:53pm on 07 May 2010, bestoftherest wrote:

    when i listen to those who espouse a tough immigration policy, they seem to have two arguments**

    I'd actually deport people like you before the immigrants, the blame for what is happening in this country right now lies firmly with the liberal brigade.... I can give you several more arguments than two - how many would you like?

    1. Immigrants are not integrating into British society

    2. Some of them are state dependant & have no savings of their own

    3. We don't need to fill a skill shortage - we can train the people who lack skills to do these roles - problem solved & before you say it cant be done...yes it!

    4. - people are claiming to flee war torn countries & then travelling through several safe european countries to risk their life trying to get into Britain...dont tell me we haven't got an immgration problem!

    Like I said before there is a clear & distinct agenda from the laberals to make white people a minority in this country - we must stand up to this now!

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  • 68. At 2:56pm on 07 May 2010, bestoftherest wrote:

    Yes, they are white, like me, but the similarity ends there.**

    I cant believe i read 3 paragraphs of utter left wing rubbish & then you claim to be white - well if you are then thats where any similiarity between me & you, disgraceful attitude towards your own country!

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  • 69. At 3:04pm on 07 May 2010, bestoftherest wrote:

    So, after all this talk about the uncontrolled avalanche of migration into the UK under Mr. Brown was just plain nonsense**

    yes it was just a dream..you can wake up now :-(

    No immigrants here....

    Whats wrong with some of the people on this forum - you've completely sold out!

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  • 70. At 3:07pm on 07 May 2010, bestoftherest wrote:

    Thank you Mark for your series of stats on immigrant workers.

    As I suspected, it's a lesser issue than all the thinly-veiled racists make out.

    A little bit of a mix is healthy - with no migrant workers at all, we would be even less tolerant - and I'm proud at how tolerant a nation we are - apart from the few aggressors who like to shout loudly.

    Do you have any stats on how many ex-pats we have working a) in the EU and b) in other countries not part of the EU? I'd like to see how balanced that is**

    Why is it if anyone expresses the viewpoint of Immigration in this country as a problem or even an issue they are automatically branded racist by people like you?

    Sara - do you want Britain to be a non-white country, honest answer please!

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  • 71. At 3:20pm on 07 May 2010, MamaTatu wrote:

    I'd like to my comments earlier. I will tell you why there is such a big flow of immigrants from India, Pakistan etc. The British govt. charges big fees for visas etc. and that is the reason they also allow people to just come along here. It has become a money-making business. To top it all, the people in-charge in such countries are corrupt. I know someone who got a student visa for about 14 months but got a working permit for 2 years, how can this be? After his study he is supposed to leave Britain, isn't it? Not carry on working here. I have heard a woman on train saying whoever comes from these countries, come with the solid intention to live here, full stop. And about these people learning and speaking English?! It's a language, they can go to any extent to come to Britain, so what's in learning/speaking English? Just bcoz u speak English doesn't mean u can enter Britain? It used to be so tough to come to Britain before, but nowadays any tom, dick and harry to just come along....God help us.

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  • 72. At 4:22pm on 07 May 2010, Umm_Mam wrote:

    I am an unemployed (or stay-at-home-mum) and my husband is an EDUCATED immigrant. He came to this country, and made a life for himself here; he has studied here for 6 years, and has been trying to get a foot on the career ladder so that he can provide for his family. He doesn't snatch jobs from the British Unemployed, many of whom are uneducated, and uninterested in work. I myself, am unemployed but not out of laziness or inability to find work, but to look after my child; for the following reasons: childcare can be expensive and furthermore despite all the disclosures people 'need' to enable them to work with children I am unsatisfied on these alone and am concerned not only about childcare financially, but also in the respect that these strangers are essentially raising my child and I don't know them, and I don't know what kind of people they are, what kind of ethics and morals (or lack of) they are instilling in my child! So I therefore chose to stay at home and look after my child to ensure she grows up with the kind of morals and manners etc that I want her to have. In the years to come I may want to put my foot on the career ladder and already have ideas about further studying to enable myself to have a profession (specifically I aspire to be a Pharmacist one day) however, I have seen first hand other cases, such as girls who leave school and get pregnant and live off benefits and their partners don't work etc - those are the people who say things like 'the immigrants took our jobs and so we can't work and just sit at home claiming benefits'

    The truth of the matter is, as I will give an example to in a minute, is that if someone REALLY wants to work, they will find a job they can do!

    Just last night, my husband and I ate roast chicken. The relevance of this is that it came from a street vendor, shall we say, who obviously had no luck finding 'employment' elsewhere so took it upon himself to go out and buy chickens, then marinate them and cook them in an oven connected to some power source via a 'mini market' and sold the chickens to passers by. Now this is a good example, as the man selling them was obviously an immigrant (we could tell by his accent) now did he steal a British job? - the answer is a resounding No, you see the majority of the unemplyed Brit's seem to have a 'standard' in that they turn down jobs that 'aren't good enough for them' now until we get rid of this attitude problem, then are we going to continue blaming overseas workers for this problem? I certainly hope not.

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  • 73. At 4:22pm on 07 May 2010, Jade wrote:

    bestoftherest, i see your point but which party do you actually trust to help this crumbling country? from what i see the damage has already been done :-(

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  • 74. At 4:38pm on 07 May 2010, Jade wrote:

    No, bestoftherest but what can WE do to stop the damage that has already been done, to me its like a sinking ship, you get soo far then you must make a choice to bail out, hence we talk of Ex pats, Ex pats fled the country BECAUSE of the way things were and were going!!!! if things were different, most of them would probably move back here!!! but what can we do??? The NHS,schools,Housing are all at breaking point, but i cannot solve this myself through fear!!! and i am fearful of stating my views in my own country, thats fact. Things need to change but how do you shut the door after the horse has fled the stable?

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  • 75. At 4:44pm on 07 May 2010, JA wrote:

    @45 and re 55.

    It is considerably more complex than that. We used to be a world leader in IT, however the government outsourced most of the work to large multinationals (in theory to reduce costs, but we know that doesn't work unless you retain the skills you are then tied to your provider).

    These multinationals then operate in two main ways. i) they do work off shore, pay their employees wages at the level of India/China and pocket the difference as profit.
    ii) if they need people then they transfer in their employees, even if they have to pay them UK min wage then they provide things like accommodation so that the transferred employee doesn't need to be paid a real living wage. Because of employment law, these transferees cannot stay over 2 years or they gain UK rights - so they rotate them.

    In regard of education, it is true that the top few % are highly skilled, but in the developing world it is easier to add more hands than ability (because anyone who is very skilled will look overseas for work!), so the environment is very "production line". I am not talking call centre, this is engineering, design, etc.

    Whilst this sort of thing goes on immigration doesn't really matter - at least immigrants pay tax and spend money here, outsourced jobs spend all their money in their home country!

    Of course, what none of the customers realise is that they are getting poor product(why does every govt IT project overrun?) - because they no longer have the staff who can verify the work, they have to rely on their 'consultants' - who are the outsourcers!

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  • 76. At 5:06pm on 07 May 2010, bestoftherest wrote:

    bestoftherest, i see your point but which party do you actually trust to help this crumbling country? from what i see the damage has already been done :-(**

    Its the policies not the parties, the first thing would be to withdraw from the EU unless we are granted more control on who we are to let in this country, step up the border patrols until the problem has been completely eradicated - force the long term unemployed & disinterested benefit claimers to train up to fill the skills shortage & be given a choice of working or losing some or all of their benefits & that goes for any job - this takes away the two main left wing trump cards - that British people won't do any job & that we need Immigrants to plug a skills gap... also scrap the human rights act indefinitely, this takes care of the human rights lawyers making a big profit on decaying our country & also ensure that people who have taken away somebody else's human rights have none of their own & refuse to take any asylum seeker unless we are the next available 'safe' country...now that would be just a start but it would go a long way to repairing some of the damage that has been done.

    I'm just brave enough to say what the silent majority think...the mentality needs to change!

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  • 77. At 5:50pm on 07 May 2010, Alex wrote:

    The use of the national statistics to claim immigrant are not a threat is one of pure propaganda. Whilst the statistics may be an accurate record they are certainly not an accurate picture. The truth, the ostensible fact is that economic colonisation is a real threat. There are whole job groups being colonised by immigrant workers. The colonisation by Asian shop keepers is a real example of economic colonisation. The nay sayers are a very dangerous fascist voice of anti-british culture and homeland values. whoever holds those views is not of British origin or living in a realm far removed from ordinary working people. To condemn the BNP, UKIP as far right and racist is an out and out lie and a disgrace.

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  • 78. At 6:03pm on 07 May 2010, phillipwest wrote:



    # 62 you must be one of the few polish people actually still living in Poland :-) That's quite funny..

    I just got back from a walk along the "Planty" a park that runs along where the old city walls of Krakow used to be. Lots of people enjoying the sunlight (rare these days) filtering down through the leaves of giant Chestnut trees that line this park. The 14th Century main square is busy with people and I often hear English but mostly Polish. Most of us are still here enjoying our beautiful country which has a history as long and rich as that of England. People leave here for the UK for the money as wages here are depressed and unemployment is in the 12% range. Most people speak some English so the UK is preferable to France. We come, we work, we send some of our money home and most of us respect and admire your country and culture as we have much shared history. Some miserable criminals have come as well unfortunately, but not a one terrorist from Poland. I have been to England twice, once at Heathrow and another at Gatwick so I am no expert on your country but have very positive attitude for it. My feeling as a foreigner to England is that your leaders first obligation is for the welfare for the citizens and second to those who immigrate there. You cannot allow immigrants, from here or elsewhere to have unpaid access to your social services as such services will be soon overwhelmed. You must protect the core, the essence of your culture and expect those who come to learn the rules. For Poles that choose to stay in England you will find them to be good, kind, hardworking souls who will be a positive influence who will become part of your society and not expect you to become part of theirs, in my opinion. :-)

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  • 79. At 7:12pm on 07 May 2010, Jade wrote:

    Well its a shame as you say, what other country could you go to in the world, disrespect the culture, country, people and views, that we have here.
    When i worked abroad years ago, i accepted the way of life and rules, that is what its all about, there is no other country in the world, that is as accepting as here, and its all gone horribly wrong, i dont think i will see any changes in my lifetime, which is sad and a very horrible fact to know that the Street where we used to live in Buckinghamshire was used to make bombs to blow up people that lived in the same street and other ordinary people and being a national threat??? its has gone mad, and ill tell you for one thing..if it wasnt for my elderly mother that i see everyday, when she is not here anymore, im out of this Country, well thats unless bestoftherest becomes Prime minister :-)

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  • 80. At 7:21pm on 07 May 2010, Jade wrote:

    pwx im pleased you seem to live in a beautiful country yourself and i understand why you come here! its wages etc, however working in the caring/nursing industry it will be interesting to see in another say 30/40 years how many of the oldies from other nationalities will still be here and paying the running costs that they are bleeding our poor pensioners of now living in homes/hospitals etc, or will they all go back home and live comfortably off??? a bit of food for thought there!!

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  • 81. At 7:57pm on 07 May 2010, Thinker10 wrote:

    65, what I read is someone who lacks arguments and, in the absence of a good argument, tries to threaten. "Your time is running out"? Is that how British people solve their problems?

    Do you really believe immigrants are responsible for the UK's social and economic problems?

    I am not one of those immigrants that "will go to any lenghts in some cases to sneak into this country & risk their life in the process", but I still do not find it right to blame immigrants for the country's problems. Actually, it does not help solve the country's problems, either. The UK is the way it is because of its own people.

    What are the UK citizens going to do? Are they going to take responsibility for their mistakes or hide behind the immigration issue?

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  • 82. At 8:33pm on 07 May 2010, ecolizzy wrote:

    #72 Just last night, my husband and I ate roast chicken. The relevance of this is that it came from a street vendor, shall we say, who obviously had no luck finding 'employment' elsewhere so took it upon himself to go out and buy chickens, then marinate them and cook them in an oven connected to some power source via a 'mini market' and sold the chickens to passers by. Now this is a good example, as the man selling them was obviously an immigrant (we could tell by his accent) now did he steal a British job? - the answer is a resounding No, you see the majority of the unemplyed Brit's seem to have a 'standard' in that they turn down jobs that 'aren't good enough for them' now until we get rid of this attitude problem, then are we going to continue blaming overseas workers for this problem? I certainly hope not.

    Good lord Umm-Mam I'm amazed you ate that chicken. Have you any idea where it came from? Was it a foreign bred? What about bird flu risks. Or other chicken diseases brought into the country. Was it killed or did it die? Did the "immigrant" pay the mini market for the electricity, or was it stolen? Chickens carry salmonela and e-coli was the person hygienic? Was there washing facilities? Were cooked chickens kept apart from fresh ones? Were there fridge facilities? Are you ok? Not got an upset stomach? I would NEVER buy any food from some bloke off the street, in this country there are hygiene rules, which this man has probably completely floated. But as he's an all round good "immigrant" it's ok for him to sell dodgy food. At one time in this country we had very high standards, now we're diving down to third world levels.

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  • 83. At 8:57pm on 07 May 2010, PLANETLONDON wrote:

    The debate seems not to be focussed on migration per se - but migration rights being available based on "right" color. And the fact that UK is party to this nonsense based on surrendering its sovereignty to the EU, is a fact that is reprehensible. This overturns 300 years of historical associations with Empire that caused London & Britain to become Great. Germany or Italy did not have these associations - and hence are different from Britain in a fundamental sense. To subject human capital to isolation and defeat - because its color is not "EU" - cannot be pardoned under any circumstances - moral or economic.
    The end of discrimination based on ethnicity, religion, and race, is not only important because it is just but because its ends the waste of something far more valuable than mere money, the waste of human capital. Money can be replaced easily enough, you can just print it. Human capital is value that is unique to each individual that can never be replaced. That is why driving it away or constraining it to isolation and defeat is probably the worst of all crimes a society can inflict on itself.

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  • 84. At 05:14am on 08 May 2010, BiiBoidshateu wrote:

    Hey Easton,why don`t you tell why the British establishment is ethnically cleansing its own people just for one more year/month/day at the taxpayer-provided feeding trough?

    Giving jobs to foreigners could be considered co-equal with taking jobs from British people.

    http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html

    Article 2
    In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    * (a) Killing members of the group;
    * (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
    * (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
    * (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
    * (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


    The British establishment are prima facie guilty of the crime of genocide against the British people.

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  • 85. At 11:14am on 08 May 2010, Cav wrote:

    #54 - Absolutely correct! The benefits system actively penalises those that do occasional work and are honest enough to declare it.

    My daughter - a teenager with some learning difficulties - has been unemployed for a year. 7 weeks ago she did FOUR HOURS of work and, when signing on, was asked if she had worked in the last fortnight. She honestly declared those four hours and has had nothing but problems from the incompetent benefits service since. For four weeks she received no benefit payment at all - because she was working! It took that four weeks to get the 'service' to realise, after repeated explanation, that my daughter had worked a one-off four hours. And so they started paying her again. This week her payment was reduced because she's "working 4 hours a week". What is wrong with these people?!?!

    The last time I was unemployed was over twenty years ago, after being made redundant. Rather than sit around on the dole I did occasional work for an agency. There was no problem then with working a week on and then a week off. It seems either the process has changed or the standards have slipped.

    What do we learn from this? Well, sadly, I've told my daughter to either not do occasional work or, if she does, keep it to herself. What a sad state of affairs. The system is geared, by procedure and inflexibility, to keep people trapped on benefits. Even a little occasional work benefits society in the amount of dole paid, acts as a training experience for the person involved and is also an opportunity for possible permanent employment.

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  • 86. At 11:20am on 08 May 2010, Cav wrote:

    #56 what are you talking about? Colour is irrelevant. It is the country of citizenship that is important. A British person is able to move around the EU based on that fact alone, whatever their ancestry.

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  • 87. At 11:25am on 08 May 2010, D Johnson wrote:

    When one goes shopping in ones local town and hears only foreign languages one is certain that this country is overwhelmed by foreign `workers` and hangers-on. Statistics can be warped to suit any point of view.

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  • 88. At 11:37am on 08 May 2010, Cav wrote:

    Bestoftherest "disgraceful attitude towards your own country!"

    Allegiance to 'your country' at any cost is foolish and sheep-like. Not all, but the majority, of 'youth' in Britain are yobs in one way or another. To some extent this is not their fault but that of over-liberal 'freedoms' that make people think they have a right to everything at the expense of whomever and with zero responsibility.

    jkjerome

    Perhaps the reason so many people were allowed in was because they were part of the empire\commonwealth? An empire forged by military force, destroying cultures and plundering resources...?

    There are many people in Britain who refuse to do jobs. Agency windows are full of job opportunities even now.

    Having said all that:

    If there are people paying less than minimum wage or providing other untaxed benefits such as housing, then that is an issue for the law.

    We need a level playing field. As I understood it people coming here are NOT entitled healthcare other than emergency care, until they have legally been here for 12 months. That even applies to British citizens, leave the country for more than three months without returning and you have to be here 12 months before being entitled to free care again. If citizens of other EU countries are getting free care immediately and we don't in their country then that isn't acceptable.

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  • 89. At 12:55pm on 08 May 2010, Keith814954 wrote:

    What I think needs to be investigated is the type of jobs that have been created during the last few years and whether they actually contribute to the wealth of this country by being in industries that sell their goods and services overseas or, as I suspect, they are largely jobs in the UK centric service industry both public and private.

    Further, if 77% of the jobs went to immigrants, how many of them are remitting part of their salary to their country of origin? If they work for wealth creating industries that is tolerable however if they work for the UK centric service industries they are compounding the lack of wealth creation by actually exporting wealth from this country!

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  • 90. At 1:07pm on 08 May 2010, roger S wrote:

    The crux of the matter is that British workers still lack the basic skills which are required to do many of the jobs given to foreigners. This is where our education and training programs are lacking. I think for skilled work the government should of concentrated on giving people (young and old) the opportunity to train in a new skill for minimal cost. Some incentive given to employers to take youngsters on giving them the opportunity to get a proper skill which will be in constant demand. Too much emphasise has been placed in given as many youngsters as possible a University place. When to be honest many are not really cut up for it.

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  • 91. At 3:15pm on 08 May 2010, Jade wrote:

    I dont believe that British workers Lack skills, The foreiners have forced the pay down soo much they simply refuse to work, and i do not blame them either, why should people earning £5.85 or less an hour and pay tax on it??? and try to support a family, pay rent and living expenses, when the goverment is dishing out money like sweets to anyone that wants to come here, its an insult to the British People, The fact is these foreign people have driven down the wages in this country, British people should have priority over work, and whats left over, a few to come and fill thoses places with the crap pay, NOT the other way round !!!!!

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  • 92. At 4:51pm on 08 May 2010, Reada wrote:

    34. At 12:41pm on 06 May 2010, Thinker10 wrote:

    People come here for different reasons and contribute to this society in different ways. I am not the owner of the truth. Do British people really believe the immigrants are the ones to blame for their social and economic problems?

    -------------

    Sadly, many do regardless of the truth about the statistics or the rights and wrongs of immigration policy. But I suspect blaming immigrants has been around for the entire history of human migration and is unlikely to end any time soon.

    Having said that, it is undoubtedly true that wages for the lowest earners have been depressed by recent immigration. When apportioning blame, however, we should ask who is really benefiting? Wealthy landowners can benefit from reduced wage costs of getting others to work their land. Running a big house with housekeepers, au pairs, cleaners, gardeners etc. is much cheaper and owners of care homes can increase their profit margins. Those benefiting most tend to blame lazy indigenous workers whilst for those at the sharp end suffering lower wages and competition for jobs its often easier to blame the immigrants.

    Getting an extension built may be cheaper for everyone than it would be without immigration, but if your wages are lower because of it then a lack of enthusiasm is understandable even if blame is not always focused in the right areas.

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  • 93. At 4:57pm on 08 May 2010, tc wrote:

    no 37...I saw that as well and the same thought crossed my mind.
    I saw another one last week when the topic was obviously rather 'special'...maybe it was 'culture' or the Arts or something and for once all the punters interviewed were white Caucasian and I thought what's wrong?... don't members of our multi-cultural society have views on this subject?
    I thought the representative 'mix' in British society from all ethnic groups was about 15% but follow 'vox pops' interviews and you would never know that. My problem is I can see straight through it....understanding precisely how their OVER 'politically correct' minds are working. I can see that it does annoy people because it is so damn right UNrepresentative.
    It's a bit like the same old argument concerning the Black Police Officers Association...if there was a White police etc it would be viewed as a racist organisation......same horse /different jockey.
    The 'beeb' need to look at this .....it is so simplistic for words...BUT I'd love to be at the BBC meetings where this kind of claptrap is formulated.... you can imagine the nitwits and the egg shells involved.

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  • 94. At 6:10pm on 08 May 2010, Jade wrote:

    To be honest, i dont believe the government knows just how many people their are, these stats are purely to manipulated people and we are let tp believe that perhaps things arnt as bad as they are really letting on!! as for programmes by the BBC and other debate shows they are all pre choreograhed again, ask the right questions, pick the audiences, its a way of controlling the general public, so, freedom of speech has left the building!! :-(

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  • 95. At 9:44pm on 08 May 2010, Merv Rogers wrote:

    Am I missing something or are people just using these figures for workers as a total for all immigration? Surely these figures don't include the families of EU immigrant workers. It is my understanding that you don't have to work here to be entitled to be here from an EU country either. Are non EU workers who gain entry to work here entitled to bring their families?
    So should not a more accurate survey of total immigration include those as well?
    I am not trying to make a racist point here but feel it is necessary to understand just what these figures include.

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  • 96. At 9:47pm on 08 May 2010, mr_jay wrote:

    As always a thought provoking article Mark.

    "The figures show the number of UK and non-UK workers in the labour force and, within that, the number of EU workers with jobs in Britain."

    I was laid off from work 18 months ago and since then have worked in a variety of poorly paid agency jobs with Poles, Hungarians, Czech's and Latvians. All were hard working decent people and the places I was sent to work always had a White British minority. As most agency work is temporary with no contract between the worker and the company itself, is this registered in the stats you have highlighted above? If not then surely the whole article is flawed as there must be a MASSIVE invisible workforce out there picking car parts, clothes and supermarket groceries and doing the work that we (UK) should really be doing ourselves?

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  • 97. At 00:16am on 09 May 2010, ecolizzy wrote:

    I notice many posts above criticizing others for being racist, zenophobic or little englanders when they disagree with mass immigration. It's nothing to do with any of those.

    ITS NOT ABOUT RACE, IT'S ALL ABOUT SPACE.

    Have a look at this......

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density

    We are at 51 with 660 people to the sq. mile. Now the statistics show that London and the south east is as crowded as the Netherlands at 28, and they have 1035 per sq. mile, even India at 31, only has 930 per sq mile. So the south east of England is more crowded than India. Also note most of the countries above us with higher density populations are islands, some of them very tiny. Do we really want to end up with 2000 people to the square mile?

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  • 98. At 01:16am on 09 May 2010, bobbomoggo wrote:

    Good article but I'd also like to know exactly how many EU and non EU residing in the UK are claiming benefits, what are the benefits they are claiming, how long have they been claiming them and how much money do all these claims add up to!

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  • 99. At 10:30am on 09 May 2010, tc wrote:

    97...goood point ...
    I for one do not want to see the population of this country getting anywhere near 70 million as various research has suggested for 15 years down the line. The problem is that our politicians DO NOT think about things like that ......even on a good day they can barely deal with next week. We are a small island ALREADY heavily reliant on imports in terms of food, energy and resources......and in time we will face a huge water problem. We have to get real about the future and cut our cloth accordingly. I was not impressed with Nick Cleggs comments when refering to population growth in the UK and that we can't do anything about it. The fact is that in the very near future ALL countries on this planet will HAVE to think about the size of their respective population. It is totally irresponsible for us all to keep reproducing in the clear knowledge that millions around the world continue to die annually because, on an international level we cannot cope with this continuing population explosion.
    If our politicians do not recognise the notion of our being 'FULL' what size of population can we carry on expanding to? 70 million...75 million?.....Anyone out there want to project what kind of a mess that would be like in the UK? ( GREAT programme here for the BBC) Global warming...they say....we must think about the future.. 75/80 million people in the UK ...Well think!
    Just as we know nothing about the population rise in this country during the past 15 years (I think we can agree that the Census tells us zero) and in particular the effects that illegal immigration/legal migration is having /will have..... how can we plan for the future? You cannot plan unless you have reliable figures from the past, where we are now ...and what they tell us about the future. ...and we as a nation are nowhere near understanding any of that.
    I think i'm right in saying that something like 80% of current births in London come from non -indigenous people...ie not born in the UK. Perhaps that is the first toll of the bell...or maybe its not important....but with a projected figure of 70 mill' population on the horizon I think it is a very good question we should be discussing NOW.
    Oh .....for NIck Clegg.. How do you control population growth?.....well off the TOP of my head...How about giving small families FANTASTIC !!! tax benefits ( for having the 'snip') or delayed payments 10/15 years down the line..... I know some would blast these ideas to smitherenes but at least I'm throwing SOME thoughts into the pot. Start thinking Nick.

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  • 100. At 10:39am on 09 May 2010, corum-populo-2010 wrote:

    EU migrant workers are not 'taking' jobs that British workers don't want to do.

    The 'static' British workers want one job with year round, stable employment with a living wage to afford high costs of living in Britain. They don't want to be laid off when the harvest is over etc.

    EU migrant workers who don't go back to their country of origin after seasonal work has finished - are often more flexible; self-employed and therefore continue to obtain work in different occupations?

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  • 101. At 00:31am on 10 May 2010, M de Vol wrote:

    Perhaps another point to consider is who does what?

    What jobs did the people who emigrated do? - Did they work in the private sector (did they generate their pay through their efforts, by attracting customers for whatever they made or did) or did they work in the public sector?

    What jobs do the people who immigrated do? Are they employed in the private sector or in the public sector?

    New jobs produced by the government are jobs in the public sector and are the employees are paid by the government (by the taxpayer.)

    If 1000 private sector employees emigrate and are replaced by 1000 immigrants who take public sector jobs then the net migration figure is zero but the budget deficit increases by the salaries of those 1000 immigrants (plus any additional costs.)

    How many of the new jobs (public sector jobs) produced by the government were produced solely (or mainly) to assist immigrants? How many of those jobs would not exist were there no immigrants to need them?

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  • 102. At 00:38am on 10 May 2010, Wessex Man wrote:

    Nice figures quoted here. But as no one knows how many illegal Immigrants are here and also lots of Migrant workers coming to the UK and accept a lower wage than normal people accept. Mainly due to them living in Multi Occupation houses, and all 'clubbing' together to pay the rent. I am not sure you prove anything. Perhaps the BBC could employ lots of Migrant workers? After all 'They all work hard, and for a lower wage'. At least my TV licence money would not be wasted on vast wage bills.

    Or are your jobs sacrosanct? Only the 'Common' people to be affected by Immigration?

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  • 103. At 02:17am on 10 May 2010, Andy wrote:

    I think there is one thing many people in the UK can learn from the EU and None-EU works: If you want a Job, Move! each job I have had has been over 200miles away from the previous one.

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  • 104. At 06:24am on 10 May 2010, SnoddersB wrote:

    My contention with EU immigration is that we have no control over it and are dictated to by the continentals. Most people will note that the continentals do not bother to change their car headlights to comply with our regjulations and are arrogant enough to belive that we should put up with them. I also fond that a large percentage of EU lorry drivers are also arrogant and deangerous on the road. It is time that all immigtation and entry into our country was controled so that we know who is here. Our best option would be a referendum on the EU and then after the 70% have had their say leaving the disaster thus saving our country billions of pounds.

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  • 105. At 10:41am on 10 May 2010, joshua goldblum wrote:

    1. At 3:08pm on 05 May 2010, mrwj5 wrote:
    Excellent post, please send it to our far right friends at the BNP/UKIP and cc Mr Cameron in as well.
    Only affects 1.5 million unemployed thats half of what the gov CLAIM if you are niaive enough to believe the unemployment figues produced by the gov?
    If you where not one of the people whom want a job but can't get one because of the CLAIMED 1.5m foreigners whom took these jobs, then you would be very happy. Remember, these are only the jobs/foreigners we know about, in the calcs!
    What about the other 10 million whom have boosted our British population from 54-65 million in the last 5 years. Before this our population was declining year on year so dont tell me there are only 1.5m jobs taken by foreign workers, because this I will not believe no way!! Farms in devon only last week illegal nos 25 were found and these are the ones caught? another 1 million times this we haven't been told about and have not been caught and 50% cannot even be traced as entering the country.
    This is why I will always vote for a party which puts the interest of the UK citizens first. Be in Cons, UKIP, Greens or the dreaded BNP. Totally fed up with the conceit, lies, bigotry and fraud from consecutive governments and MP's.
    NO MORE --- NO MORE.
    Dont suppose the BBC will print this as it violates their interpretation of Discrimination???

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  • 106. At 10:49am on 10 May 2010, joshua goldblum wrote:

    102. At 00:38am on 10 May 2010, Bert wrote:
    Nice figures quoted here. But as no one knows how many illegal Immigrants are here and also lots of Migrant workers coming to the UK and accept a lower wage than normal people accept. Mainly due to them living in Multi Occupation houses, and all 'clubbing' together to pay the rent. I am not sure you prove anything. Perhaps the BBC could employ lots of Migrant workers? After all 'They all work hard, and for a lower wage'. At least my TV licence money would not be wasted on vast wage bills.

    Or are your jobs sacrosanct? Only the 'Common' people to be affected by Immigration?

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Extremely well said Sir

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  • 107. At 11:17am on 10 May 2010, joshua goldblum wrote:

    98. At 01:16am on 09 May 2010, bobbomoggo wrote:
    I'd also like to know exactly how many EU and non EU residing in the UK are claiming benefits, what are the benefits they are claiming, how long have they been claiming them and how much money do all these claims add up to!
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    It's not only the non-brits people presently in this country whom are claiming benefits it's their off springs/dependents in their country of origin whom are also getting paid benefits by the british tax payer, thru the generosity of our glorious gov "fairness for all" policy.
    We cannot continue to keep the world thru our tax system it has GOT to stop.

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  • 108. At 11:28am on 10 May 2010, joshua goldblum wrote:

    6. At 5:12pm on 05 May 2010, Justin150 wrote:
    But it is worth picking up on one aspect of Mark's report. He stated that
    "615,000 new jobs were created...Roughly 200,000 went to non-EU workers; 275,000 were taken by EU migrants; the remainder, about 140,000"
    So what he is saying is that during a Brown boom year roughly 23% of new jobs went to Brits and 77% went to non Brits, or if you want to break it down further 23% to Brits, 45% to EU migrants and 32% to non EU migrants.
    So much for the "British workers for British jobs" slogan mouthed by Gordon B.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    No matter how distastefull the BNP or UKIP appear to be, they would stop immigration and reverse the above trend to favour the Brit worker instead of an open employment forum of the worlds "dubiously qualified" personnel grabbing the work meant for the brits.
    Maybe then the laws governing certain minorities within this country would be recinded to favour our own workers.

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  • 109. At 11:57am on 10 May 2010, Alex Moss wrote:

    These analysis were available before elections. Its a shame, these were not made Public. I believe it may have been a threat to losing seats to UKIP.
    Further analysis have not been shown on the non - EU categories, i.e. from commonwealth nations, etc.
    We have also not focussed on the remittances to the EU countries as compared to non-EU countries (excluding Commonwealth).
    Millions of GBP have been fished out of UK to EU countries. Please compare those with the remittances to EU countries, you will be shocked! Please see the impact on British industries, nowadays many products have been arriving from EU countries, killing British GDP.
    The British are losing housing benefits to the EU immigrants.They have to wait longer for adequate housing in their desired councils.
    Many EU immigrants work for cash-in hand and evade taxes while claiming benefits.
    Nowadays we see more European take aways than fish and Chips shops.

    In other words, the EU immigrants are draining the British economy and increasing the country's debts, thus burdening the tax-payers further. Once we are drained, they will head back home or to another EU country.

    We are doing enough charity by paying for taxes, squandered as benefits for the leisure of non tax payers.
    Do we need to pay for the benefits of the EU immigrants too? What are the returns?
    Has anybody questioned the positive economic impact of EU accession, if there is any?
    What is the income derived per EU immigrant in terms of taxes, etc as copared to the benefits they have claimed?

    Crime, drugs and flesh trade has increased.
    Flesh trade have popped up everywhere. London being the hub of drugs business.
    Just saw the news the other day about Romanian pick pockets sending £100,000 to Romania and now being deported to Romania at tax-payers costs.
    There are EU people wiping car windows, street gambling, begging!!
    EU or the respective countries should accept the liability and pay for every penny of damage, replacement and related costs caused by their citizens.

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  • 110. At 12:45pm on 10 May 2010, DibbySpot wrote:

    Good to see the "hard numbers". As a UK worker in Belgium I'm grateful to be able to work across the EU. While working in a multi cultural environment, we have over 16 languages and nationalities represented, the key diffierence is the skill and management abilities of colleagues. This is a stark difference to UK staff and managers who are either so politically correct to the point of madness while managers spend more time politicking than working.

    The UK needs to end the policy of sending child benefit to families outside of the UK. However, the main need is to boost education and increase the motivation of UK people to work in the first place.

    Would I prefer to employ someone from the EU to a UK persons of course since in most cases they are highly motivated and do excellent work.

    Generally, if you employ British tradesmen they either dont turn up or cannot work the full 8 hours. Try a Pole or Lithuanian they xwant to work and are dedicated to finishing and doing a good job.

    Until the UK can get this culture back into its people rather than complaining about immigrants taking jobs they should ask why?Employ a Brit? You must be joking.

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  • 111. At 1:16pm on 10 May 2010, Alex Moss wrote:

    why would the unskilled brits prefer to work? they get loads in terms of benefits and then are involved in crime or cash-in hand jobs.

    Girls get pregnant during teenage to be able to claim benefits. Stop these benefits and you will see the teenage pregnancies collapse.

    Why should the tax payers end up in paying for someone else's pleasure and children? They burning oil to provide their own with a better life.

    If you stop these benefits to people who hav never paid taxes and provide benefits equivalent to the tax contribution of able-bodied individuals, you will see the employment rates go higher.

    Why should government spend extra on training for unskilled young people? They had a chance in school.. which they merried along, bullying the serious ones who are now well educated.

    How come international students are able to pay their dues and finance their studies?.. simple....our brit students are busy partying and holidaying thru the year!

    Britain claims people still in student debts even after earning £40,000/ year. Just ask them to stop squandering, clubbing and lavishing.. they will be able to repay their debts.

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  • 112. At 2:01pm on 10 May 2010, Alex Moss wrote:

    further analysis on the excel sheet posted by Mark.
    Out of the total immigration population in 2008
    EU 54.73%
    Common Wealth 26.34%
    other 18.93%
    New immigration laws will be imposed only on almost 20% of the immigrants.
    What about the other 80%?
    Do we want to cut on branches or only cherry picking?

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  • 113. At 2:57pm on 10 May 2010, aristotles23 wrote:

    Very good to see the figures for employment among the three groups mentioned in your blog Mark.What,I think,would add interest to these figures would be the correlation of unemployment between the two groups of EU and non-EU immigrants/migrants.My pal Shaheed tells me that only himself and his father have work,his mother claims benefits for herself and six children,they live in a huge house paid for by the taxpayers(including Shaheed and his dad)and plan to bring both parents immediate families plus the grandparents,none of whom speak English,none of whom will be able to work when they arrive,all of whom will either receive benefits personally,or will be claimed for as dependents.Shaheed told me that he will be happy to see his aunts,uncles,gran and granddad etc.,but that he does not understand how the British system can afford to be like this,I told him it cant,he just shook his head and said,its crazy.How many EU migrants are in this position?,None.How many EU migrants are claiming benefits,almost none.How many EU migrants leave when the economy of their home country picks up?Most.How many EU migrants who stay on in Britain integrate fully with our culture?The vast majority.Unfortunately we cannot say the same for the non-EU immigrants,we seem to be in the midst of setting up a two-culture state in Britain,on the one hand our own home-grown culture,on the other,a distinctly west-Asian,Muslim,anti-west,anti-Christian,anti-democracy,anti-American,anti-Jewish society,a Pakistani diaspora that is militant enough to be of concern to our security services.With the violent,mysogynist cultural endemics so prevalent in Pakistani society,are we in danger of giving succour to our enemies?America's latest would-be terrorist attack has just been shown to originate in Pakistan,we know about the training camps for Jihadi's,the assistance granted to the Taliban by these same camps and the people who run them,when will we say"hang on a minute,what ARE we doing?" I for one am in no way concerned about EU migration,but I am very concerned about the cuckoo egg in our nest,the future shock coming our way,for all those who think I am a bigot and/or a racist,wait and see who is the more prescient among us...

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  • 114. At 4:59pm on 10 May 2010, aristotles23 wrote:

    Something that just occurred to me,when I was at secondary school,there was a careers office,which one started to attend a full two years before the minimum leaving age was reached,at 14 in other words.In this office there were several full-time staff who dedicated their time there to helping potential early leavers discover what they may choose as a career upon leaving school.One was encouraged not to think of just "getting a job",but to plan in advance,the moves necessary to starting a career in a chosen profession.At this time the curriculum reflected a broad base of learning priorities,predominantly academic,but with increasing emphasis on learning skills associated with one or more of the professions(white and blue collar),as I was about to leave school,this all changed,government policy did not agree with teaching the children of working-class parents to be articulate,well-educated,fully employed professionals who would obviously demand better wages,conditions,rights etc.Thus,one year later,we had four million unemployed.Because the union barons and the government could not agree,there were going concerns closed overnight,factories shut,mines shut down,ship-yards closed,manufacturing was strangled by both the union barons and the government fighting over power.The then government did not re-open the mines,or the factories or rescue manufacturing(unlike the banks rescue now),no,they waited till we had our wages driven way down by the influx of larger than ever numbers of Asian immigrants,they would rather exploit Asians,in the name of multiculturalism,than pay Britons a decent wage.This is the kind of political policy which paved the way for bad race relations in Britain,emasculated the British in terms of their employment prospects,and severely exploited Asian immigrant workers,building their resentment and ours.This kind of short-sighted tinkering/social engineering has to stop or we will all continue to suffer its ill effects.EU migrant workers are not a problem at all,non-EU ones are,to themselves and to us,they will be exploited and they will always feel like outsiders in an alien culture,and we will always feel the same to be true,unfortunate but true.

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  • 115. At 10:22am on 11 May 2010, Peter Fox wrote:

    Clearly as the number of EU and Non-Eu workers diminishes due to the less attractive economic conditions in third world Britain happens, the percentage of the British workforce as a whole goes up. No great suprises there.
    The issue in this country isn't about immigrant workers per se, it is about immigrants flooding certain areas of the country, making them enclaves of their former home nations - the British don't like this.
    It is Labour Marxist theory at work to ensure captive voting for the state machine.
    As those from the EU are able to claim benefits it further riles the average taxpayer when they also get entitlement for housing etc. At no time in the election was this ever discussed.
    We now have a country that is politically hamstrung because of social engineering - the reality is we should build a wall across the country just south of Birmingham and leave the unproductive wasteland of Labours social engineering for them to govern without tax bailouts from the South.
    Then there would perhaps be a realisation of the cancerous marxist/socialist disease that threatens this nation.

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  • 116. At 2:45pm on 11 May 2010, aristotles23 wrote:

    115....Peter Fox....Just a couple of points,Hardly any EU migrants claim benefits,plus,their entitlement is not immediate and not as generous as for British claimants.Furthermore,housing entitlement is a variable for both EU mainland claimants and British claimants.If a claim for housing is made by an EU migrant,they must be in employment and earning sufficient money to afford the rent,if they are not in employment,they will not remain,legally anyway,in Britain.The benefits are nowhere near as generous for them as they are for (former)Commonwealth,and other,non-EU countries immigrants ,and it would be pointless for them to remain,if they can go elsewhere.As a full-time employee,an EU migrant would gain more points (for housing) than an unemployed Briton.This makes sense,for the housing market,the job market and in a purely humanist way.I,as a British Citizen,can gain housing even if I am long-term unemployed(heaven forbid)so that equalizes the situation fairly well.Finally,as a Scot,I find your remark about a wall across Britain highly amusing,the Romans built two walls across Britain,the southern wall(Hadrians)and the northern wall(Antonine),neither wall succeeded in the long term and before the Romans left the Antonine wall was rendered useless and Hadrians wall had its gates removed,this was because the then General of Roman occupation south of Hadrians wall,Maximus had challenged the Governor General of Gaul,Theodosius,and failed,forfeiting his life.The seventh cohort of the thirtieth,Ulpia Victrix was left to defend the wall with a pitiful number of foot-soldiers,no cavalry and no chance of reinforcements.The northern Picts and the Welsh Gaels,over-ran the defenders after a short and bloody struggle,the remnants of the thirtieth left for Gaul immediately after the battle,leaving Hadrians wall undefended,and so the gates were removed.My point,I suppose,is this,if the might of Rome,with all its military expertise could not contain,restrain and conquer Britain,north AND south,then what chance does modern man have? You cannot declare war,or try to wipe us out,or conquer us by force,the whole world would condemn such punitive action as fascist.Having said all that,I broadly agree with some of your comment,particularly about the modern ghettos for Asian immigrants,a disgrace that shames all.Sorry if I digressed so much but I was amused by the idea of a modern wall across Britain..

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  • 117. At 11:47pm on 11 May 2010, Jade wrote:

    114 why would the unskilled brits prefer to work? they get loads in terms of benefits and then are involved in crime or cash-in hand jobs.

    Girls get pregnant during teenage to be able to claim benefits. Stop these benefits and you will see the teenage pregnancies collapse.

    There isnt alot of choice nowadays, perhaps they are just competing in a country where there is limited jobs and housing available, not that stupid really to compete with other countries citizens coming here and getting it all PLUS MORE anyway???? at least the British citizens of this country are of parents who have probably paid into the pot since they were 13/14... you are quite oblivious.

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  • 118. At 02:40am on 12 May 2010, Cabe UK wrote:

    We've know for years that they are not 'pinching' our jobs because our own homegrown workers apparently dont want to do them! So what difference does it make who comes in from where - as long as someone does the job why should we really care? There was a TV prog shown recently (prob on the BeeB?) about the jobs migrant workers do (mostly manual labour) and putting Brits into their jobs for several weeks to see if they could do them... None of the Brits could do them. None! Not One! They were all too pathetic and childish to even want to do a proper days work! So what is the point of Cameron capping legal immigrants from coming here to work ? He would be clutching at straws just to look good? If we did this it would be the downfall of the British economy!

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  • 119. At 08:16am on 12 May 2010, happybrian123 wrote:

    Your figures are wrong, because they are Government figures. I am retired but it doesn't stop me seeing and hearing the number of foreign nationals in my shopping town. The Tower of Babel has nothing on the noise in the Super Market.

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  • 120. At 08:23am on 12 May 2010, ady wrote:

    At places like Tesco and Morrisons all the part time older women are gone.

    They relied on these jobs because they were so flexible and they could pick up their kids after school.
    They could talk english and you could have a nice wee natter.

    Now we have a bunch of young immigrants who can barely speak english, all the local women, who had been doing this work for decades, literally vanished within months.

    The main reason this happened?

    Young immigrants are 50p less an hour.

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  • 121. At 09:34am on 12 May 2010, ecolizzy wrote:

    #118 So what difference does it make who comes in from where - as long as someone does the job why should we really care?

    I'll explain why it matters to me Cabe. And it doesn't matter what race they are, it's TOO MANY PEOPLE.

    1. This country is getting extremely crowded, especially in the South East.

    2. Like Happy and ady, I like to speak to fellow citizens who understand me, and my culture. Especially when I visit hospitals with my elderly relatives, who are completely confused as they don't understand all these different accents.

    3. We work and pay Benefits.

    4. We work and pay the immigrants wages.

    I don't like paying TWICE to get the job done, which is happening all over England at the moment.

    5. There is a huge shortage of houses, we need 1.8 million.

    6. Go and look at Migrationwatch site, you will find just how many new people are joining our society.

    I quote...

    Seven Key Facts
    Net immigration quadrupled to 237,000 a year between 1997 and 2007. In 2008 it was 163,000. 3million immigrants have arrived since 1997.

    A migrant still arrives
    every minute.

    We must build a new
    home every six minutes for new migrants.

    England is already, with Holland, the most crowded country in Europe
    (except Malta) (Population density stands at 1035 to the sq mile in the South East)

    Immigration will add 7 million to the population of England in the next 24 years - that is
    7 times the population
    of Birmingham.

    To keep the population
    of the UK below 70 million, immigration must be reduced by 70%. Government measures so far may reduce it by 12%

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  • 122. At 10:02am on 12 May 2010, bethan wrote:

    Thanks for this. more posts like this please, its high time we started to dispel this myth that Britain has an immigration problem... especially from the EU. What a shame that Gordon Brown's point was over shadowed by the bigot gate incident. Yes we have migrants coming in to Britain but plenty of British people [myself included] benefit from the opportunities to go and live or work in the EU. come to think of it any post showing the positives effects of EU integration on British workers would be appreciated as people seem to find it all to easy to forget that despite not being a 'perfect' system [but then what is?] the EU benefits Britain and the economy greatly.

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  • 123. At 10:57am on 12 May 2010, ecolizzy wrote:

    #122 I'll repeat my post from above bethan, and these are eurostat figures not mine. Yes you many be able to work in the EU and good luck to you, but the EU is 1,660,000 sq miles we are 94,000, just how do we fit a million EU workers in, when we only have 287,000 workers in the whole of Europe. Of course there are many brits living in Europe, not just working.

    19. At 9:10pm on 05 May 2010, you wrote:
    According to Eurostat figures 287,600 Brits work in Europe and 1,020,000 europeans work in Britain. We are 93,500 sq miles, and Europe 1,660,000 sq miles, I'm surprised we manage to fit so many people in.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2010/7679514/General-Election-2010-Labour-accused-of-misleading-voters-over-EU-migration.html

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  • 124. At 11:01am on 12 May 2010, ecolizzy wrote:

    And with unemployment now standing at 2.51 million, and immigrants of 3 million, there is no corelation between the figures? I find that very hard to believe.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/10109965.stm

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  • 125. At 12:27pm on 12 May 2010, ting wrote:

    1. At 3:08pm on 05 May 2010, mrwj5 wrote:

    "Basically migrants are mainly doing the jobs we Brits think are 'below' us anyway.
    All the hype when there really isn't a problem after all!"

    I am tired of people like you saying 'they do the jobs we won't. You need to realise that many immigrants are prepared to work for less wages and find ways to live much cheaply than us. By the way I do not read tabloid papers, I see the evidence for myself in run down East London. E.g many non-British workers share a couple of rooms to reduce rent costs. Also I have witnessed various people on work permits renting a room for a few months then leaving without paying the bills. I wonder how many more people on work permits abuse our country in this way? It's us who pays you know - our electricity costs will increase if they don't pay their bill. They are prepared to live in such means as compared to their home countries, both the wage and living conditions are considered a luxury. So it's not a case that we Brits are lazy, we are not prepared to work for low wages. I find it insulting that these wages are so low and that people who earn good money think that's what the rest of us are worth. Employers love immigrants as they actually keep wages down which is a dis-service to Brits. I live in an area where I see a lot of this happening. It's usually people who don't live in the big cities or/and who earn good money seem to think there is not a problem and that immigrants are great as they do job we do not want to do. Perhaps many people like me could earn better money and had a choice to live in a better area, I would be thinking like you.

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  • 126. At 12:56pm on 12 May 2010, Cabe UK wrote:

    @121 ecolizzy -

    I agree ecolizzy we are overcrowded etc, etc and I think after the economy, any new Gov really needs to address the immigrant population which should be separated and not confused with EU workers coming in -
    But to be clear, the majority of British people on the dole - and I say 'majority' - don't really want to work when it comes down to doing *any* job! - If its too menial they don't want it especially if they get paid regardless so what do we do?
    The migrant population is a static one and always on the move but as long as they are legal migrants (I assume Tescos etc don't employ illegal ones?) then we don't really pay for them, they pay for themselves with their own tax contributions, and they do not displace people from housing (there are no families on the streets because a Polish person has their house?) and their rents also go towards our kitty.
    It is very easy to be completely negative but if you want to bunch everything together then there is not a lot we can do about EU workers coming in. We would have to leave the European Union and disengage ourselves from the Maastricht Treaty or find a way to limit it and I don't see the UK being able to do that easily.
    The only real thing we can do is get the Gov to make all wages equal, then get Brits OFF the Dole - if they don't work they get no pay, get them into every single job thats being offered and ultimately, the EU migrant-worker numbers should start to fall away. But maybe this is all too simple for any Government?

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  • 127. At 3:36pm on 12 May 2010, Jade wrote:

    Well, i had an interesting chat with a polish work collegue this morning and told me she came here with he boyfriend, worked on a farm, got housed by the farm and was working for cash for a whole year!!!!!!!
    He was paid 400 a month and so was she, she said she liked it because it was cash!! i bet!! This is the problem untraced people earning living in static caravans being paid cash, because they WILL do it cheaper!! When are people going to wake up and see this is happening all over this country, again some smart ass do gooder will say "its because British people dont want to work??? How are you supposed to compete with that???

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  • 128. At 5:54pm on 12 May 2010, anglodave wrote:

    Hi,
    I see that you are looking fairly closely at the statistics about this immigration issue.That is also slightly misleading. How many immigrants a year and over previous years have become 'UK citizens'. The figure must be up there in the millions. When is the right time to address the problem? When is Britain officially full!

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  • 129. At 8:54pm on 12 May 2010, Cabe UK wrote:

    I havent seen any 'do gooders' around?
    Maybe we 'compete' with it by acknowledging that lots of dole claimers really don't want to do menial labour and try and then try do something about it from that point onwards...
    Or, maybe we just need to go bomb the selfish *British* employers/ Farmers - whatever, that are attracting this cheap labour in to the country?

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  • 130. At 12:12pm on 13 May 2010, David wrote:

    Interesting reading - yes the numbers are interesting but it also doesn't change the real world perceptions and at the end of the day, people are more likely to believe there perceptions than cold hard facts which could (and I am not saying thay are) be easily misrepresented to prove many different points of view.

    I personnaly would like to think I am open minded and treat everyone equally. But as I am currently looking to hire and all I see are CV's from India (around 95%), you can see why people start to resent the non UK or even non EU citizens working here.

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  • 131. At 4:33pm on 13 May 2010, Sara wrote:

    Oh, I've only just seen a question was asked of me!

    bestoftherest (if you'll ever see this) - you asked me "do you want Britain to be a non-white country, honest answer please!"

    Honest answer? Firstly, you've let the cat out of the bag - so you're worried about whiteness of skin rather than origin of worker?

    We seem to have a fairly stable 8%-ish of foreign workers in this country. Of those, 3-4% are EU workers and 4-5% are non-EU workers.

    Of this 8%, I imagine most are white, or white-ish. I daresay they don't differ too far from the Romans, Vikings, Normans, Angles, or whoever else added culturally and numerically to the population of this country in the past. At least they're just coming to take up the slack now, instead of like, invading, raping, pillaging and stuff.

    Either way I don't think there's enough to change the colour of the nation - if such a thing is indeed worth worrying about.

    It'd be a shame if we as a nation lost our identity and 'feel' - as I love going to foreign countries and enjoying the differences between them, and between us and them. But is this dependent on skin colour?

    Given how angry some of our fellow Brits get about supposed infringements on our 'Britishness', I don't think that identity is about to disappear any time soon.


    And finally, just because I liked it, I shall quote the end of MrWonderfulReality's post:

    "When we get our own house in order, which includes long term benefits claiments, then maybe an ignorant few would be more entitled to state their non valid and childish immature and nonsensical ignorant biased comments against immigrants."

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  • 132. At 4:58pm on 13 May 2010, Ventnai wrote:

    EcoLizzy: I suggest the Eurostat figures need revising or the Daily Telegraph has reported them wrongly. Alone in Spain there are 760,000 registered residents of British origin, who are not 'crowding up their home country'. This does not include people who are not registered but will include retirees. However, I don't believe all of them are retirees.

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  • 133. At 5:36pm on 13 May 2010, ecolizzy wrote:

    #132 This does not include people who are not registered but will include retirees. However, I don't believe all of them are retirees.

    Ha,ha, Ventnai, no probably not, as the Spanish economy is collapsing, and they have 20% unemployment, I expect there's lots of brits working on the black! ; )

    Not to mention clogging up their hospitals and old peoples homes!

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  • 134. At 5:49pm on 13 May 2010, ecolizzy wrote:

    I wonder if any other EU country has a million school children who's first language is not the indigenous one?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1278130/English-language-ONE-MILLION-schoolchildren.html

    I think the education bill is going to rocket with all the extra teachers needed just to teach english alone.

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  • 135. At 9:19pm on 13 May 2010, orestelionello wrote:

    The analysis looks accurate apart the fact does not consider that there are many British that are emigrants. Maybe also in other countries they will complain. Germany is full of British Engineer, USA as well.
    I remember how patetic was the strike made some years ago across all the oil plant because a foreign company (it was from Italy, an EU contry no?) took a contract. British jobs for British workes!
    Let's tell to the American that now have to clean half of their cost because of the BP offshore platform.

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  • 136. At 11:16pm on 13 May 2010, joebloggs wrote:

    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

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    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

  • 138. At 11:26pm on 13 May 2010, joebloggs wrote:

    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

  • 139. At 11:33pm on 13 May 2010, joebloggs wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 140. At 11:45pm on 13 May 2010, joebloggs wrote:

    I bet your a devil of a pre-moderator arnt you, you devil, post my long writen comment you unrealist anti-christ of a pre-moderator.

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  • 141. At 09:33am on 14 May 2010, Flatout_maniac wrote:

    lets be clear :

    the buildingsite,restaurents,hotels,farmyards,vegetable growers,food factories,ever popular pound shops,domestic gardening / home improvement jobs in UK employs mass numbers of polish and other east europeans just come as they wish (mainly unskilled)!

    the IT industry, Telecom industry,employ mass of indians whom comes in with work visa/hsmp visa,student visa (mainly skilled)

    the Nursing and care industry employ mass of philipinos,thai,southafrican,zimbabwe etc are skilled migrants

    the so called 'Indian' restaurents /takeaways employ mass of bangladeshis and Pakistanis ..mainly unskilled migrants

    plus mass of illegal workers, accepted and failed asylum seekers working in the black market and being exploited

    if you speak to any of them no matter what the answer is they are hear to earn and send monies back home, so they dont spend the monies or invest in UK, the other striking truth is they all are either brought in thier families or working with specilist lawyers to bring in thier families,they will be obviously milking the services created for the british by putting up an arguement that 'we also pay taxes' and that is not acceptable.

    therefore I really dont see the positive side of these migrants trying to 'contribute' to this country in anyway

    given the fact we have a fair share of so called ethnice minorities, the more the economic migrants we allow the more difficult is to get a job for the british because never underestimate those who are trying to come in, they are even prepared to get the job for peanuts pay and of course its inviting for many of the well known companies as they always prefer them instead of british workforce who trying to earn a living wage,the problem is its not only 1 or 2 but there are millons of them here competing in the job market & possibly there are billions are waiting or on the way from countries like India.

    has this government going to do anything sensible about it?
    what are the plans to train our own freebies in this country and thier offsprings from becoming carreer benefit scroungers as well as retraining the other unemployed?

    british jobs must be done by the british people, the times are over and excuses are now over.

    all the companies must employ british workers in this country and must train our workforce and NO NO to economic migration, it is definitely out of control

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  • 142. At 09:54am on 14 May 2010, Flatout_maniac wrote:

    36. At 1:15pm on 06 May 2010, mambal06 wrote:
    25. At 08:58am on 06 May 2010, Mabey wrote:
    Your statistics do not reflect the reality we all experience...

    Travel to any town in Britain and you will find a large number of imigrants.

    Work on an IT project - and it will be staffed by Indians who have now gained citizenship or most companies now outsource IT to India, whose staff enter the country on Visas. There is no skills shortage just cheap labour.

    Manufacturing has been outsourced to China, who are being trained in the UK on how to adhere to ISO quality standards.

    A small overpopulated country which has had to introduce a vast amount of legislation and agencies to address social integration should question the wisdom of importing cheap labour from anywhere in the world.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Just a quick question Mabey. Are those Indians working in IT Sector are paid less than you or any other British worker? if not, how can you call them cheap labour?

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    my fiend,
    I work in the IT industry having some 20years of expertise, nowdays its very very very hard to get a job, the reason is down to cost every agency i come to speak, after befriending hundreds of agencies many have said that they are receiving hundeds of CV's from Indian nationals happen to be here in UK and they ARE working for cheap,because i personally have missed out many oppurtunities because of cost therefore Indian IT worker gets the job.

    first of all how it is possible for all those indian IT workers happened to be Indian nationals applying for british jobs from UK ??? while british workers like me suffering to find work how on earth this government has givenaway visas to them like sweets to roam here and compete for british jobs agaisnt british workers? totally absurd.

    also I want to add a point that most or all IT telecom companies employ loads of Indian workers whom happened to come in on contract visa and all endedup with a british citizenship and I have heard at times they argue that they work and pay tax here, so they deserve everything?

    I am speaking the truth and any leftist can call me a racist,

    something isnt right here

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  • 143. At 10:06am on 14 May 2010, Flatout_maniac wrote:

    135. At 9:19pm on 13 May 2010, orestelionello wrote:
    The analysis looks accurate apart the fact does not consider that there are many British that are emigrants. Maybe also in other countries they will complain. Germany is full of British Engineer, USA as well.
    I remember how patetic was the strike made some years ago across all the oil plant because a foreign company (it was from Italy, an EU contry no?) took a contract. British jobs for British workes!
    Let's tell to the American that now have to clean half of their cost because of the BP offshore platform.


    ------------------------------------

    my friend,
    yes in germany there are british engineers who goes on contract and come back home to UK at the end of contract.

    however it is the opposite in UK case that the people comes to work on contract 99.99% of thier intention is to permenently camp here, by the stupid rules of our country they will stay as long as possible to get british citizenship, they will bring in thier families etc etc..

    now when the recession & systematic funding cuts in public services,less and less jobs available each year because companies are squeezing in with job availabilities WHERE DO YOU WANT THE FELLOW BRIT AND HIS CHILDREN TO FIND WORK?

    then there probably a small number of brits working in other european countries like germany while HOW CAN WE ACCOMODATE MILLIONS of populations from eastern europe and the third world workers like India etc? where is jobs for everyone? because i know the situation as I have worked in germany/belgium etc

    migrants are always willing to go extra miles to protect thier stay that something a brit cannot afford to go, so where we would end up?

    Mass economic migration under labour was the worst thing happened to this country.

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  • 144. At 10:15am on 14 May 2010, Flatout_maniac wrote:

    130. At 12:12pm on 13 May 2010, David wrote:
    Interesting reading - yes the numbers are interesting but it also doesn't change the real world perceptions and at the end of the day, people are more likely to believe there perceptions than cold hard facts which could (and I am not saying thay are) be easily misrepresented to prove many different points of view.

    I personnaly would like to think I am open minded and treat everyone equally. But as I am currently looking to hire and all I see are CV's from India (around 95%), you can see why people start to resent the non UK or even non EU citizens working here.

    ---------------------------------------

    well said David !
    I am skilled british worker currently finding it very hard to secure a job because the agencies are closer to me are saying that they are getting many CV's from indian nationals whom based in UK and they are prepared to work a lot cheaper than british worker !

    I am not surprised at your findings,
    last time i met Indian IT workers in germany / belgium when I was visiting the site, they were constantly screwing me about how is the market in UK and if they can come to UK with thier european visa or I can sponsor them by any chance?
    they seems extremely desperate to get to UK and what is more upsetting is this isnt just one chap asked me.

    I think its time for the employers like you actually wake up and see the reality that not to hire or sponsor people from elsewhere other than own british because there aint many work around anymore

    oh by chance i am pushing my luck against hundreds probably thousands of indian nationals IT workers already here in UK to fight off a competition to get a job, wish me luck.

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  • 145. At 11:05am on 14 May 2010, Flatout_maniac wrote:

    36. At 1:15pm on 06 May 2010, mambal06 wrote:
    25. At 08:58am on 06 May 2010, Mabey wrote:
    Your statistics do not reflect the reality we all experience...

    Travel to any town in Britain and you will find a large number of imigrants.

    Work on an IT project - and it will be staffed by Indians who have now gained citizenship or most companies now outsource IT to India, whose staff enter the country on Visas. There is no skills shortage just cheap labour.

    Manufacturing has been outsourced to China, who are being trained in the UK on how to adhere to ISO quality standards.

    A small overpopulated country which has had to introduce a vast amount of legislation and agencies to address social integration should question the wisdom of importing cheap labour from anywhere in the world.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Just a quick question Mabey. Are those Indians working in IT Sector are paid less than you or any other British worker? if not, how can you call them cheap labour?


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Basically i can confirm that Indian IT workers do work for cheap for a fraction of wages what is considered a marketrate and they offer so called 'harrrd work' by not taking breaks, come to work even they are sick, 8hours per day isnt normally the case as a typical indian IT/Telcom worker can do a shift from 8am til 9pm or even late because they are either wants to show off they are very good or scared of squeezy british managers not finishing the work on time because thier usual language problems etc, and in some companies they are controlled by thier outsource company often the managers sitting in India calling the staff in UK checking if they are working late (obviosuly for adding value at no extra pay) & run in to trouble and threatened of anyone dont comply with thier own work laws.

    I have heard this all because I have worked with them at many different companies, they are abused to a extreme level but thier wish to settle and earn more keep them cool headed.

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  • 146. At 2:09pm on 14 May 2010, youngian wrote:

    How many migrants are filling skills shortages and what are those industries doing to train up young people in apprenticeships to do those jobs in the coming decades. If business and government don’t a more robust and ambitious training programmes they have no business pandering to concerns about high immigration levels.

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  • 147. At 5:50pm on 14 May 2010, Matt Satan wrote:

    The argument given has a major flaw. We don't really know how many people from non-EU countries are really working here, not only because there is no record of them leaving but that this article leaves out those who have come for different reasons such as entering under student visas and then staying to work. However because of the various EU Treaties the UK has passed into law it would be very difficult for us to refuse entry to EU citizens. The only effective way we can control the number of migrants, if we have to control them as I belive we should, into this country is by applying controls on non-EU nationals.

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  • 148. At 00:22am on 15 May 2010, ecolizzy wrote:

    Foreign language workers for foreign workers

    http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-1278387/Milton-Keynes-hires-15-times-interpreters-decade-ago-cope-residents-84-mother-tongues.html

    Incredible just incredible!

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  • 149. At 2:09pm on 15 May 2010, Tom W wrote:

    I'd like to see the last graph in percentage terms (and also as a line graph, rather than a bar chart).

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  • 150. At 6:12pm on 15 May 2010, Flatout_maniac wrote:

    148. At 00:22am on 15 May 2010, ecolizzy wrote:
    Foreign language workers for foreign workers

    http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-1278387/Milton-Keynes-hires-15-times-interpreters-decade-ago-cope-residents-84-mother-tongues.html

    Incredible just incredible!
    -----------------------------------

    I am gutted and felt like someone punched my both eyes

    why the hell labour has allowed this to happen, what is going on in our country, every tom dick and harry from all over the world is coming here to settle, attracted by our benefits and nhs system, why the hell our politicians havent stopped this? nevermind these people arent even prepared to learn english and i am sure they are happy thier backside milking british resources and wielding the God given right of British passport holidaying thier countries at british taxpayers expense.

    well all i can say, soon or later there will be revolution and serious british public outcry and revolution, our sad face politicians arent going to do anything about it and they are creating a worlds benefit and job honeypot for everyone trying to enter our shores, this cannot just go on anymore. oh my God.

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  • 151. At 6:56pm on 15 May 2010, blinkeredfew wrote:

    You are all a bunch of new age hypocrites

    I had 9 months out of work.
    I have only been able to get a temporary job through an agency
    no one wants to take me on full time, i'm as hard a worker as
    any foreigner or anyone else from this country and yet I have just
    lost this job and know it will be a while before I am lucky
    enough to be able to earn a living to support my family without the
    worry of going into debt.

    Yet, the company I worked at, have several eastern europeans who
    are permanently employed at the Company I was working at, and
    they all have second jobs.

    I would take these jobs at anytime, even though it is under my
    level of knowledge, yet I have no chance of this.

    I hope you people who try and misguide others into your false thinking that it is okay to give the foreigners jobs before people from this
    country, suffer the same fate and then lets see what you think, when you
    are suffering and struggling to keep afloat ( and I am not able to claim benefits as I did act sensible for the 30 years I have worked and saved, now this has nearly gone.

    I hope you do not have the problems I have had in going through what is
    a battle I am constantly losing.

    LETS THINK ABOUT OUR PEOPLE FIRST THEN THE FOREIGNERS CAN TAKE ANY JOBS AFTERWARDS.

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  • 152. At 9:03pm on 15 May 2010, ecolizzy wrote:

    #151 LETS THINK ABOUT OUR PEOPLE FIRST THEN THE FOREIGNERS CAN TAKE ANY JOBS AFTERWARDS.

    Totally agree with you blinkeredfew, it makes me angry the way people post on blogs, sitting safely in their cosy (often London) office jobs, that brits won't take the work because its beneath them etc.

    I've worked in lowly jobs, and know the comarederie of fellow workmates. But it's all gone if you are not from the same country, there is no cohesion. Plus the word of mouth of jobs for the brits has now gone. It's all amongst the immigrants now, they pass jobs on to each other, and I know that from experience.

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  • 153. At 11:23pm on 15 May 2010, jonthepom wrote:

    Lets just get a few things straight here before I post, I hate the BNP with a passion and I was deeply proud of my fellow countrymen for not giving the gits one seat in the last election.
    But lets deal with the reality here shall we.
    Britain has become largely an "Office" based society.
    It is still deeply class driven and tends to see anyone who does not sit at a desk as lower class.
    Having spent many years in the construction industry I can tell you for a fact that the large influx of foreign workers into the UK construction industry has forced a lot of people like me to have to leave the UK.
    I now live in New Zealand and I am very happy here.
    However I still feel a deep animosity to those who kept telling me how much better and faster all these nice Polish workers were.
    "Oh and do you know, they will work for a fraction of the amount I have to pay one of these Sun reading, crack of there arse showing, beer drinking lazy British builders", mmmm, how many times did I hear that one.
    So as a professional, apprenticed craftsmen, I say to you, the nice coloured charts above mean nothing to those of us who work in the real world.
    I was paying my plasterers 165 pounds a day (please remember people this is turn over, these guys are all self employed businesses, no pension no sick pay) there were Polish contractors working down the road for 35 pounds a day.
    When you work out how to run a business, pay your insurance, run your vehicles, buy new tools, pay your mortgage, and most importantly here, pay your taxes on 175 per week, perhaps you will get back to me.
    But next time a nice well educated white middle class man tells you everything is fine and dandy go and stand outside any major construction site in the UK and listen to the accents of the guys walking of site at tea time.
    This is not racism it's about very large corporate construction companies making more money for there shareholders.
    Oh and by the way the young apprentice I had working for me in the UK lost his job when I was forced to close down.
    Remember, when you can know longer fix your own boat, then your boat becomes an accident waiting to happen.
    Good luck guys, I'm of to the beach.

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  • 154. At 11:27am on 16 May 2010, lagbaja wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 155. At 2:13pm on 16 May 2010, Political_Incorrect wrote:

    Taking the most recent figures from the tables it looks like 13% are non UK born workers. That is certainly significant (statistical significance being 5%). Especially when 60% of those are non citizens, meaning they will likely work cheap through fear of deportation or because their contract is tied to a low pay rate. So the effect of the foreign work force on UK born pay rates and UK born job security is likely highly significant.

    So much for the conclusion reached by some here that this is nothing to worry about and a fuss kicked up by the BNP.

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  • 156. At 3:10pm on 16 May 2010, Evangelista wrote:

    My bother is, whatever the stats, people from many countries have been welcomed here for decades, particularly from India, Asia, The Caribbean and Africa, but now the people from Eastern Europe in particular have ease to get here whereas they did not before, they are being picked on far too heavily. It is their right to be here and yet the responses by man a Brit - to their landing here, has been pretty appalling. It is beyond me that so many British folk seem to forget that these people are human beings too, and in fact on the whole much nicer and more pleasant human beings at that.

    Work-wise, over the last year, I have had to have three plumbing and electrics jobs done in my house. I called a friend of a neighbour first of all (British) and after coming to look at the problem 9 days after he initially said he would, he told me 20 days after that he was not qualified to do the job after all, for that job and a subsequent problem that happened in that wait time I hired another chap (also British), he arrived quickly, told me that he was charged by the hour, on the final invoice I noted that 4 of the hours where the 4 hours that he and his mate sat in the van eating sandwiches and reading 'papers. One of his jobs lasted 3 days before it broke again, I called the last person, a Polish man, who arrived half a day after I called him, and mended the problem in 2 hours and the fault never happened again. For the third problem, I naturally called him again, he was busy and told me he'd come after 2 days, he did just that, he worked solid for the 5 hours he was with me, didn't have a dinner break, didn't even except a cup of coffee. And he was Nice.

    I am so glad the Europeans come over, and I really hope they continue, I just hope the relevant British can start to be respectful and be nice to them.

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  • 157. At 6:49pm on 16 May 2010, England47 wrote:

    Hmmmm, yes interesting. Lets deal with the facts should we, when all the eastern european countries joined the EU which countries put no limit on migrant workers entering their own countries? Britain, Sweden and Ireland were the only 3 countries to put no limit on the no. of migrants entering.All other EU countries put a limit on the no. of migrants entering and none of those were called racists ! hmmmm. Very few of these migrants went to Ireland or Sweden because of lack of jobs and benefits, and as we all know this country was flooded with them. So all well and good when the economy was doing well but now the economy is a complete mess thanks to Labour, there are millions of British workers now out of work who would be willing to take any sort of job but cant find then due to the fact that they are taken by Eastern Europeans. So I presume Ill be called a racist for daring to say that? What country do we live in?

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  • 158. At 7:04pm on 16 May 2010, James Hoyland wrote:

    This whole debate is bogus. It's predicated on the idea that there are a fixed number of jobs and that a foreigner 'takes' the job from a native. It pays no attention to the fact that that foreigner invests their skills in a British enterprise, generating wealth and tax receipts within the country to the benefit of everyone. Further more, that the foreign worker's wages will be predominantly spent within Britain in British businesses supporting themselves and their family, stimulating the economy and so generating further job opportunities for Britons. We essentially get a worker without having had to invest as a nation in their education and health before they arrived. Immigration is only a problem because the British people have chosen to see it as one!

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  • 159. At 12:37pm on 17 May 2010, The Patriot wrote:

    The debate should not only extend to people arriving in the UK to work on an individual basis, but also to the number of jobs that have been "outsourced" to foreign companies in various parts of the world. many technologies have gone abroad. What is worse foreign workers are being brought into the UK to work on "business visas" and being paid alot less. Please refer to this post from the BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8077579.stm

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  • 160. At 4:24pm on 17 May 2010, Chazz Trinder wrote:

    The statistics here are interesting but there are other statistics - such as 24 % of the 708,709 births in 2008 were born to mothers outside the UK - the figure for 1998 was 15%. In London, in 2008, approximately 1 in 2 births were to mothers born overseas.
    British born women have an average fertility rate of 1.6 -without immigration our population would be declining – with it we are on course for a population increase of 10 million by the 2050 (source of all statistics is Office of National Statistics).
    Immigration is having a massive impact on our country and our way of life. There are costs to immigration as well as benefits – people have every right to be concerned about it.

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  • 161. At 7:42pm on 17 May 2010, X wrote:

    @ smell the coffee
    " "indigenous brit" doesnt want to work hard for minimum wages."

    Yeah funny that, indigenous brits wanting a wage they can live off, which you cant do on a minimum wage, or should we natives be happy to toil for 12 hours a day for mere tuppence a week after stoppages?

    "(which on the evidence in you piece is clearly bunkum) and a whinge about migrants taking "our" housing."

    not really looking at this report it would seem more "indigenous brits" have lost their jobs than foreign workers. As for housing, yeah its dead immature that working and lower class persons are complaining that they cant get decent, safe affordable housing. But then i suppose they could go work for the same employer who will pay them tuppence a week, and as a benefit they can give them housing. Like a work house? Brilliant.

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  • 162. At 11:21am on 18 May 2010, Mike M wrote:

    I see a number of Fortress-Britain-mentality comments being made on immigration...As someone who has lived and worked abroad, In and outside the EU, I cannot see how we are harmed by a degree of immigration... I think I made a positive contribution to my host nations, and I see lots of that from our immigrants. The only issue that I have is with criminal or terrorist (the recent case of the young Pakistani "Al-Queda" men) being told they can stay when our security people tell us they are a threat? Is Pakistan really going to murder them if sent home? Sounds dubious to me.

    On the issue of the numbers of people already here illegally. If the numbers are as large as the estimates, then we need stiffer penalties for employers who exploit these people. We also need better controls on who gets benefits...and National Health treatments (without additional Civil Servants / bureaucracy) without having made legal contributions to our Welfare State.

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  • 163. At 8:48pm on 18 May 2010, captainarmchairhero wrote:

    "155. At 2:13pm on 16 May 2010, Political_Incorrect wrote:
    Taking the most recent figures from the tables it looks like 13% are non UK born workers. That is certainly significant (statistical significance being 5%)."

    You are not using the correct meaning of "statistically significant".

    This is why everyone should be forced to learn the subtleties of understanding statistics. They have such an important effect on the way that we run our lives, yet people often misunderstand them. This is exploited by advertisers all the time.

    I am not very knowledgeable about statistics myself, but the Wikipedia article on statistical signifance gives a reasonable explanation. In brief: suppose you want to tell whether a drug is an effective treatment for an illness. You might do a trial on a number of patients and find that a better than average number recover. However, it could just be that you got lucky with the patients that you had, and it wasn't due to the new treatment. The notion "statistical significance" applies to tests to try and understand whether a process is just "random" or a "real" effect.

    The term is not really relevant in the way that you use it.

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  • 164. At 08:51am on 19 May 2010, DJH77 wrote:

    The British Government is doing nothing to protect British jobs

    I am a Freelance Computer consultant, and have worked at many British Banking Institutons, where the Banks import Computer staff from the Indian Sub-Continent to carry out work that can be done by British/EU staff. What adds insult to injury, in some cases the British /Eu Contract staff actually TRAIN the Indians on the finer art of the work involved , only for then to be replaced by the Indians they have trained up.

    I was under the impression workers from outside the EU will only be used, where there are no Bristish / EU staff available to do the work.

    What a joke.

    The government would be better justified to say, we only use Staff from Outside the EU where there is no CHEAPER staff within the EU community to do the work.

    If you are an IT consultant please pit your thoughts to this web site

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  • 165. At 10:02am on 19 May 2010, barbara99 wrote:

    DJH77 - you are 100% correct. my husband is a computer consultant and during his last 3 contracts he has seen British companies bring in INDIAN IT workers to the uk by abusing Labours ICT scheme. british born staff are then asked to train the Indians up and find that they themselves are out of a job whilst the Indian worker is retained. These are jobs that british staff can and should be doing. This is absolutel going on. If you dont beleive me just go to any large financial instituion, any company with a requirment for IT services and check out the IT floor....

    and ofcourse the staff from noneu countries are willing to do the job at LOWER wages...not only that a british born worker is likely to spend his/her money on UK goods etc therefore putting money back into our economy.....

    if you want to see the very negative effects of uncontrolled immigration i implore you to spend a couple of hours in any inner city borough. the huge burden placed on schools, nhs, council resources is phenomenal.

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  • 166. At 11:24am on 19 May 2010, squeezed middle wrote:

    Mark, I congratulate you on a great article with stats that actually make some sense!
    To Barbara99 and DJH77, it is not as easy for non-EU workers to be employed in the UK as your comments sound it to be. I should know being an Indian doctor working in the UK for the last 7 years. NHS Trusts have always preferred British doctors over non-EU doctors, even before the previous government made it compulsory for employers to employ non-EU workers only if they couldn't find EU workers. This rule just made official what had earlier been a hush-hush policy. I am not saying this is wrong but then at least the employers should not claim to provide 'equal opportunity'.
    Every year, until I acquired permanent settlement, I have had to pay hundreds of pounds as visa fees. Despite having taken the IELTS exam when I first started working in UK, the Home Office wants me to prove every 2 years that I still am proficient in English. There are a lot of deterrents but I am still here because of the job satisfaction and future financial security.
    I cannot see how I am a burden to the NHS or council resources after paying more than half of what I earn in taxes and National insurance, with the knowledge that I have 'no recourse to public funds' - funds that provide for the local chavs who wouldn't do certain jobs because they don't fancy those jobs.
    And for the record, I have never worked for cheap.

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  • 167. At 1:00pm on 19 May 2010, barbara99 wrote:

    my comments were referenced to INDIAN IT workers and they are completely true based on experiences that my husband and many of his british born friends are facing. with regards to doctors being required to prove their english skills every 2 years - i am so pleased to hear this as its my requirement, as a patient where english is the first language that my doctor is able to understand me (again i can provide examples of indian doctors in the thurrock nhs trusts who have issues with english!).
    being required to pay visa fees...thats great too..why should being given a permanent settlement come for free? next you will be requiring a vote in our legal system.
    with regards to burden, lets talk about local schools...90% of the children in my borough do not speak english as their first language..imagine the burden on those wonderful teachers and imagine where my children fit who can speak english! so consequently even though we scrimp and save we are forced to send our children to a private school.
    finally some of the 'local chavs' that you refer to might actually be your patients.

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  • 168. At 7:29pm on 19 May 2010, senthil kumar wrote:

    barbara99 - what makes u so sure that only nonEU folks undercut wages?

    But i realize it will be hard to deal with what uncontrolled immigration has done & their lack of integration(use of non english during operation/service etc.,). And hence it is really tough to separate from personal connection to a broader picture.

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  • 169. At 8:06pm on 19 May 2010, barbara99 wrote:

    The issue isnt about undercutting...if thats the case then surely any job in the UK can be done by an Indian or an EU person for 1/4 of the cost. so if its about saving money lets not be unfair to just the IT profession, lets replace all jobs in the UK with workers from abroad who will work for 1/4 of their British counterpart. where do we stop?

    the sad fact is that british companies have not only OUTSOURCED IT JOBS in colossal numbers over to INDIA but also BROUGHT INDIAN STAFF OVER to the UK. So British workers have been hit double whammy...i dont think the same has happened for eu workers in quite the same numbers for example British companies havent outsourced a retail sales job over to Europe and effectively taking that job from a Brit and then also brought in an EU person to replace a british sales person here....its been largely one or the other.

    the issue is that British IT jobs have been sent over to India and then to add insult to injury any IT jobs left in the UK are being mopped up by Indian workers accepting considerably lower wages.

    was this necessary as i know many british IT workers that have been made redundant or are about to be?

    IT jobs in the UK, bums on seats should be atleast kept for british workers.

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  • 170. At 8:22pm on 19 May 2010, senthil kumar wrote:

    barbara99 - yes all the companies use india/brazil and these days to indonesia/vietnam (where the salary is even lower than india).
    This phenomenon has happened with IT firms all over the world.

    But these jobs will be either IT product support or software development. Usually this space needs more workers and the above countries have abundant of people who can work in that area (yes at lower wages compared to UK or USA).

    This is inevitable(perils of a global interconnected economy where the boundaries are crumbling, this is the same reason why greek financial fiasco has affected people who hold stocks across the world) how things happen when companies are looking at reducing their cost structure.

    This is why people need to be smart and adapt to learn. This is to move to areas where skill/creativity/localness is required. This is where you can add to the revenue of the company. These jobs can't be shipped anywhere but stay local.

    Sadly the bottomline is that people have to adapt that too rather quickly.

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  • 171. At 8:31pm on 19 May 2010, senthil kumar wrote:

    barbara99 - btw chinese companies used to send their folks to north american trade shows(a forum for north american companies to exhibit their new products).

    And 6-12 months later voila the chinese company will have the same product at a much cheaper cost(lightreading covered it extensively).

    This is the reason the whole North American telecom companies have had to lay off tons of people. the company i worked laid of people since 2001 till last year(70000 folks gone) and finally it was broken down and bought by other firms.

    So you see how things have changed. Many people took it harder (i know those who lost ~500,000 dollars - their whole life investment) initially but then they all accepted it and then adapted.

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  • 172. At 8:49pm on 19 May 2010, senthil kumar wrote:

    barbara99 - btw the company i worked(the darling of canada for 100 plus years with a strong history) closed their UK operations in 2002/03.

    and in the city where they were based in canada they folded from 10 locations to one.

    i fell on the 14th round of layoff in 2004. looking back i often think why it did not happen much earlier than that. i feel like i wasted some years of my life.

    I waited for the axe to fall and then adapted. But the smarter thing would have been to be proactive.

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  • 173. At 8:56pm on 19 May 2010, barbara99 wrote:

    does anyone think that India would ever allow its workers to be displaced by not only outsourcing jobs to another country but then allowing foreign workers into India to effectively put its own workes on the dole?
    i dont think so.




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  • 174. At 9:33pm on 19 May 2010, barbara99 wrote:

    all the british IT workes that i know havent sat around waiting for the axe to fall....they havent wasted any years of their lives, they have adapted by retraining...doing courses, passing exams, moving into jobs that might be lower paid but in the right direction for a short time...so they have been extremely proactive...but at the end of the day how can you compete with an indian who is willing to accept 1/4 of your wages.....

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  • 175. At 11:06pm on 19 May 2010, oldschool101 wrote:

    Lets broaden this discussion for a moment to get a perspective on things. 10 points

    1)
    The voter is the fundamental unit of democracy. Lets use that and place it into the anology of UK PLC being the company and the brand.

    2)
    The shareholders (voters) just voted for a board change (the cabinet). The voters passed the agenda (manifesto) at the AGM (election). I don't ever remember the shareholders voting on putting themselves out of work by loosening the labour market, nor would they ever do that.

    3)
    Shareholders like voters act in their own interests. I don't remember the voters being asked to put in place the lax visa controls we have seen over the last decade.

    4)
    I am a British born asian IT professional. I am completely at a loss to explain how one particular British industry has been undermined by the Indian IT industry, with the help of the old board of UK PLC.

    5)
    Find out these figures and I'm sure they will put immigration into a new light. Badly targeted immigration loses jobs. How many Indian IT workers have entered the UK in the last 10 years ? How many Indian highly skilled work permits have been given to Indian IT professionals
    over the last 10 years as a figure against the skilled permits issues ?

    6)
    Why do we have yet another type of permit - ICT VISA permit being so blantantly being used by IT companies based in India ?

    7)
    Is it because of political colonial links. What's wrong with Chinese students/IT professionals. Are they more inferior ?

    8)
    Why do we have to give out UK PLC passports like Oyster cards to the London Underground.

    9)
    Would Rolls Royce manage its brand so flippantly ?

    10)
    Globalisation is about business using the world as a level playing field. Business does not hold all the votes, nor does it act in the interests of the people. BP/Enron/Wall Street/Lemans/Northern Rock/Iceland Hedge funds/Goldmans/Bear Stearns ...


    thanks

    IT professional.

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  • 176. At 7:52pm on 20 May 2010, ecolizzy wrote:

    Let's put this another way shall we?!

    No British Workers = So No British Tax = So No British Public Services = So no need for any immigrants! ; )

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  • 177. At 10:28am on 21 May 2010, barbara99 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 178. At 1:05pm on 21 May 2010, barbara99 wrote:

    we need to safe guard some industries for our graduates...and IT is and always has been a brilliant sector for them. retail jobs are ones that graduates typically take whilst at college.

    so we need to keep british jobs for not only our current british employees but also our children i.e graduates, college leavers of tomorrow.

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  • 179. At 10:39pm on 06 Jun 2010, hopeforhappiness wrote:

    I strongly suspect that in the 90s the labour Party realised that the UK was on its knees in terms of the ability of the indigineous population to service the needs of the early 21st century.
    Big business was telling them they couldn't use the average Brit school-leaver. In my job I am aware of so many average kids that can't take more than a micky-mouse 6 week further education course. So where are the doctors, nurses, engineers etc going to come from? Well, ANYWHERE. And there new migrants would never vote tory. So double-whammy.
    Social philosophers would be telling Labour that the incomers would have family values,that fatherhood, education, hard-work and ethics would be valued (if only because they would not 'integrate')
    Never mind that the character of Britain (never an immigrant nation) would change forever - the year 2000 could be year zero of the implementation of the New Labour Social Restruction. And if anybody opposed it on those dangerous ground of democracy, then you could accuse of 'racism'. The perpetrators of this new society believe the truth of their own initially cynical strategy so completely that Gordon Brown couldn't help but say that Mrs Duffy was a bigot.

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  • 180. At 6:58pm on 11 Jun 2010, barbara99 wrote:

    actually i strongly suspect that the labour party didnt give 2 hoots about its indigenous population and used the pretence that they would be unable to service the needs of the 21st century so they decided to open those doors really wide, infact they took the hinges off the doors and threw away the panels, then removed any walls around the doors and said come everyone, come!
    low skilled, med skilled, highly skilled just aslong as you are willing to accept a lower wage and ultimately vote labour. cunning plan!

    from a british born asian in their 40+ years.

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  • 181. At 11:13pm on 14 Jun 2010, alan wrote:

    Just thought I'd add what was missed - Non EU migrant workers are exclusively Highly skilled, as unskilled doesn't get a visa (Tier 3 unskilled workers in the immigration points based system has been suspended indefinitely.)EU migrant workers range from Surgical Consultants to pizza delivery. Plus of course there's those big words on 3rd country migrant workers visas - "NO RECOURSE TO PUBLIC FUNDS" (includes NHS)but the EU migrant can use the NHS and claim child benefit for their child thats living somewhere in europe, just as Brits do when they live in Europe.

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  • 182. At 09:46am on 15 Jun 2010, barbara99 wrote:

    @181 really???

    then would you care to explain all the noneus non skilled who take up indian restaurant jobs, taxi drivers etc????

    hmmm plse read some of the above posts about how some phoney HSM (higly skilled migrants) have been cheating the system).

    and again why is IT on a HSM programme...there is certainly no shortage of british born IT workers who could be doing those jobs taken by lower wage HSMs.

    is it ok if i send all the noneus who enter the uk without any skills to speak of to your corner of the country?

    if we have HSM from noneu countries how come we have to provide extensive translation provision for them...i thought they were highly skilled...surely that would imply a strong command of the english language.

    i think you are having a laugh.

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  • 183. At 10:32pm on 21 Jun 2010, Roxy wrote:

    182 Barbara99

    How many whites will do waiter jobs or work behind the bar of an indian restaurant? They want the best jobs not have an indian boss THAT is the problem here. If you go to an indian restaurant quite right you should be served the by people who know how to cook a proper curry not some British made dish that the indigenous can not and will not integrate with!!

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  • 184. At 8:20pm on 22 Jun 2010, Roxy wrote:

    Let me reiterate the indigenous WILL NOT eat a proper curry they want some British made dish that they can relate to, in an indian restaurant only asians know how to make a proper home made curry that is why they are needed there.

    ....and yes British jobs for foreign workers because the British are too busy taking time off and getting PAID to sit in a pub to watch england play footie, those who come here to work hard to make a living get very little acknowledgement. I say force the employers to stay at work deny them any time off especially for the world cup they all have internet to keep up with the scores.

    So yes we need immigrants especially from the far east because they will be too busy working and not that interested in the world cup places like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka do not have a footie team so they should be welcome here.

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  • 185. At 8:40pm on 22 Jun 2010, Roxy wrote:

    142, 36, 25.

    my fiend,
    I work in the IT industry having some 20years of expertise, nowdays its very very very hard to get a job, the reason is down to cost every agency i come to speak, after befriending hundreds of agencies many have said that they are receiving hundeds of CV's from Indian nationals happen to be here in UK and they ARE working for cheap,because i personally have missed out many oppurtunities because of cost therefore Indian IT worker gets the job.

    first of all how it is possible for all those indian IT workers happened to be Indian nationals applying for british jobs from UK ??? while british workers like me suffering to find work how on earth this government has givenaway visas to them like sweets to roam here and compete for british jobs agaisnt british workers? totally absurd.

    also I want to add a point that most or all IT telecom companies employ loads of Indian workers whom happened to come in on contract visa and all endedup with a british citizenship and I have heard at times they argue that they work and pay tax here, so they deserve everything?
    --------------
    Has it occurred to you that indians DO the jobs and do not take time off for silly things like footie or come in late from hang overs? These people work hard as they always have done since the 1950's they put this country where it is today, don't you forget where the Kohinoor came from, they have a right to be here just as you thought you had a right to be in their country and take their jobs, wealth, country, freedom and god knows what else away from them. At least they come here to work and know how to do the job

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  • 186. At 12:29pm on 04 Feb 2011, NM wrote:

    Quite a good analysis.

    Well most of the time when immigration analysis is done other aspects are ignored...

    An analyis of crime, taxes paid to govt, fee paid to home office, savings balance, benefits claimed, no of times visted A&E under the influence of drinks/drugs etc etc by nationality...would probably help common british people to understand that immigration from which part of the world is good/bad for Britsh society/economy...


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