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'Obama is a Quaker'

Justin Webb | 09:04 UK time, Monday, 6 July 2009

Apologies for the silence recently - I have been packing up and preparing to leave the US: the sadness has left me speechless although the work I am to do back in the UK, presenting the Today Programme, is decent enough compensation.

But before going, we are at an undisclosed location (alright: Kiawah Island, South Carolina) working out the wonders of the American-designed medical technology that my son will use to control his type one diabetes when back in Britain.

Since I asked for names for the Republicans in 2012 the party has sunk further into disrepair with the Sarah Palin train wreck. I suspect that she is actually a Democrat - a creation of Rahm Emanuel perhaps.

It'll have to be Pawlenty now for the simple reason that he seems to have a little constancy about him: that is their problem; it's not the sex scandals or the dubious TV performances or the ethics investigations that have undone the Republican pretenders, it is the swivel-eyed oddness of the outfit. It can be fixed but step one is recognising the need to fix as Karl Rove seems to grasp.

The other fascinating development in recent days has been the end - or not - of the Obamas' search for a church.

I have suggested it before but let me lay it on the line here in black and white: THE MAN IS A QUAKER. He may not yet know it but that is where his search should end. There is a lovely Meeting House somewhere around Dupont Circle as well so he could get there easily.

Comments

  • 1. At 09:24am on 06 Jul 2009, U14058382 wrote:

    Maybe the Republicans are still blinded by the slave trade mentality
    Where Africans Came to be Looked Upon As Inferior
    Blacks were thought of as being less intelligent
    Blacks are usually left out of the race the human race

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  • 2. At 09:32am on 06 Jul 2009, Young-Mr-Grace wrote:

    Interesting suggestion that in his heart Obama is a Quaker. I've always thought that Quakers were peaceful and consientious objectors during war time. Would a Quaker be able to order military action or feel comfortable with his finger on the nuclear button?
    As an aside lets hope that meeting in Russia will result in real and meaning full reductions in nuclear weapons.

    You're all doing very well !!

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  • 3. At 09:35am on 06 Jul 2009, Weary Pedant wrote:

    So, what is the 'The Sarah Palin train wreck' you refer to it in the title and in your main text, but don't say what it is... Don't tease us please, it might be obvious to everybody else, but it isn't to me.

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  • 4. At 09:39am on 06 Jul 2009, PARRISIA_GREECE wrote:

    Sorry to see you leave Justin. You (as I) have been an ardent supporter of President O, the exact kind that he will desperately need in a few years due to his flip-flopping and the subsequent alienation of his grass-roots support base

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  • 5. At 09:50am on 06 Jul 2009, iam_issi wrote:

    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

  • 6. At 09:54am on 06 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    3. At 09:35am on 06 Jul 2009, WearyPedant wrote:

    So, what is the 'The Sarah Palin train wreck'

    It wasn't really a train wreck. More like shooting off the helicopter rotors chasing mooses while maneouvering to avoid a lame duck and thereby save millions of Alaska taxpayers' dollars. Something like that.

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  • 7. At 10:11am on 06 Jul 2009, Via-Media wrote:

    Nixon was, I believe, raised a Friend, so whether or not Obama attends a Quaker meeting house is not as significant as it once might have been. Their espousal of nonviolence would put any national politician to the test; although William Penn the Elder managed to play the game brilliantly 250 years ago, remaining committed to such principles has been rare since.

    As far as Sarah Palin goes, I think we just don't know what we just don't know. Serving out her full term probably wouldn't have hurt any political bid, but the additional time to set up in the Lower 48, start networking and begin a charm offensive, might explain the decision. Probably not a wise one, but I wouldn't write her off just yet- national politics has become so mercurial that anything could happen in the next 3 years...

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  • 8. At 10:15am on 06 Jul 2009, steekyjim wrote:

    Wow, using the phrase "The Sarah Palin Train Wreck" seems a little bit opinionated to me. You should be out there reporting facts, not spouting your own personal opinions. This article is clearly biased toward the Democrats like alot of other BBC reporting. Why did we pay for Justin to stay in the US when all he is doing is letting his own personal opinions get in the way of real reporting? It's about time the BBC stopped being so biased when it comes to US politics. Hopefully Justins replacement will be less of an Obama fanboy.

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  • 9. At 10:18am on 06 Jul 2009, MagicKirin wrote:

    Palin's reasons are still be debating, I never thought she was viable. As I stated in the last thread she suffers from a Dan Qualye image problem.

    Despite soundly beating Joe Biden in the VP debate.

    Why are you ignoring Romney? He has to be the leading front runner.

    He has the money and has been calmly debunking Obama's many screw up and bad polcies.

    Maybe Gingrich or Crist.

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  • 10. At 10:32am on 06 Jul 2009, sthitadhibasu wrote:

    Mr Obama has raised the expectatations of average Americans to the qualities desirable in a Presidential candidate. While Mr Clinton personified charm & is still very popular, Mr Obama personifies dignity & erudition. Mr Bush, on the other hand personified the tough guy, which bombed badly with the American voters once the Iraq adventure went out of hand & specially after the market collapse. Unfortunately, none of the the last two Republican Presidents, the father-son Bush duo will really be remembered for any strong/impressionable quality. The Republicans can only hope to rise from the ashes of the last Election if they have a candidate who can equal or surpass either Mr Clinton's charm or Mr Obama's dignity & youth. USA needs an American version of David Cameron.

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  • 11. At 11:14am on 06 Jul 2009, ohblogjoe wrote:

    As the republicans did with Bill Clinton - anyone who has a sex scandle in their past, like Palin, won't end up in the White House thank God. Maybe if she grows a brain in the next three years she'll be able to apply for a page position. LOL

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  • 12. At 12:11pm on 06 Jul 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    Good luck on the new wishes, and best wishes for your son's recovery or ability to control his diabetic condition.

    Sarah Palin is a conservative Republican with presidential ambitions who decided her Alaskan governorship was hindering her chances of increasing her popularity in the lower 48 states. I believe she made a huge mistake quitting her job prematurely, which deny her one of the few assets she had going for her: executive experience.

    In spite of all the criticisms, she is an intelligent and charismatic woman very popular among Republican conservatives and evangelicals. Her chances of winning the GOP nomination in 2012 should not be dismissed, but her chances of winning the presidency, particularly if she runs against a popular incumbent, are nil.

    Her intellectual acumen is limited at best, her speech and thoughts are immature and often incoherent, but that has never been a factor in the past and I would not discount her chances of somebody being elected President. Scary thought, but if history means anything, it would be anything but unprecedented. The days when people voted based on the qualifications of people like Jefferson, Lincoln, and FDR are over. Charisma and life experiences with an emotional personal story worthy of a soap opera are now the most important qualifications to be elected.

    I expect her to hit the road in earnest in the not too distant future, and she is likely to become one of the most successful fund raisers the GOP ever had. A substantial improvement in her personal wealth is also not far fetched.


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  • 13. At 12:15pm on 06 Jul 2009, steelpulse wrote:

    Freedom of speech cannot be unlimited?

    One of my papers Leader straplines. Ah that means we over here are not American because that Leader writer - over there at least - would get an argument I suspect. Americans Can free speech about anything. How is the Michael Savage writ progressing?

    OK - I am not American then. My Freedom of Speech is limited. I just read it! I also saw it today in my local library's computer area. It was wonderful - all those startled faces. I plan to be such a bovver to them. lol

    Because I am NOT a Quaker either though, Justin.

    I have my religion sorted and it has a vengeance is mine (in the nicest possible way mind) sub clause, I am afraid. There was a General Midwinter character in the film Billion Dollar Brain - Len Deighton's creation in the book I suppose - who had a phrase "My arm is long and my vengeance is total!"

    Sounded like a nice man I thought, but totally barmy. It was set in the then - 1960s - present day so I never worked out how if said character never left Texas in a quarter of a century - mistrusted any other air I think - how he became such nuisance to everyone - let alone achieved General ship!

    SPOILER**** Michael Caine's Harry Palmer bested him of course. Oh RIP Karl Maldern by the way. Leo - New Big 'Un! lol

    Subject: freedom of speech cannot be unlimited L
    Anagram: (Me nod) - futile - Bench - (Carpeted) line - SFO MO

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  • 14. At 12:39pm on 06 Jul 2009, U14058382 wrote:

    Sarah Palin is my favorite candidate.
    Gosh darn it. if she can be Vice Presidential candidate, gosh darn anyone can.
    Alaska is my favorite state.
    What's a McCain.. you guys are just trying to trick me
    Is this from the last election?

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  • 15. At 1:17pm on 06 Jul 2009, McMadHatter wrote:

    @#2 Nixon was a quaker, and he didn't appear to have many quarms about escalating the vietnam conflict initially.

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  • 16. At 1:24pm on 06 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    Boo!
    ;-)

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  • 17. At 1:29pm on 06 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    16:

    I didn't know you said 'Boo!' to a moose, but then , we're talking Sarah Palin here, aren't we?

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  • 18. At 1:51pm on 06 Jul 2009, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    # 9 MagicKirin wrote:

    "Palin's reasons are still be debating, I never thought she was viable. As I stated in the last thread she suffers from a Dan Qualye image problem.

    Despite soundly beating Joe Biden in the VP debate"

    As I recall, most pundits thought Biden did better in the debate, and most polls showed the public agreed.

    From Wikipedia - "Polling from CNN, Fox and CBS found that while Palin exceeded most voters' expectations, they felt that Biden had won the debate." [Link is here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin#2008_vice-presidential_campaign]

    But of course, Fox could have been part of the vast liberal media conspiracy.....

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  • 19. At 1:56pm on 06 Jul 2009, bfoulkrod1 wrote:

    Politicians (and parties) that hide behind holy books and flags are if not an evolutionary dead end, they should be. Nobody likes to be honest about the simple truth: Even though McCain was outspent by truckloads in the primary (just as when Bush Jr. spent tons slinging mud and outright lies to win the primary eight years earlier), he WON. He refused to cater to the religious right and brought their wrath upon him, along with all the money they could spend to shoot him down.

    He screwed up and picked a right wing running mate...and the MAJORITY in the party who nominated McCain were faced with another extremist stealing the party banner. There are conservative Republicans who understand the meaning (dictionary, that is, and not spin) of the word. Extreme views of any kind (religious, economic, social) can not by definition fit into that group.

    So Palin's gone. Good riddance. Since we only get a shot at a third party in this century if an egotistical billionaire wants to buy his place in history, the only alternative is for either the Democrats to become unattached from the extreme left, or the Republicans to become attached from the extreme right.

    I'd love to see a Congress with a three party split and a junior coalition member party to keep the Speaker of the House and President Pro Tempore a bit more on the level. Folks whine for term limits, how about a no confidence vote and new elections 6 months in if they can't seem to do anything but lie with a straight face. Campaign contributions of any amount won't help you there.

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  • 20. At 1:59pm on 06 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    12. At 12:11pm on 06 Jul 2009, saintDominick

    It seems a very peculiar way to qualify yourself as a future President, by disqualifying yourself as a Governor having barely done the job. I suppose that strange phrase about "a higher calling" was some sort of appeal to the religious right, not expressive of a desire to join the priesthood or get herself to a nunnery? She'd have to modify her language a bit, I'd have thought. I mean. "Hell, yeah!"

    Sorry, I just can't accept that she is anything other than ridiculous. Or a member of the US Monster Raving Loony Party. (No, scrub that, they actually made sense when they spoke.)

    Anyway, if she does start touring, I look forward to her telling us she can see China from Hawaii.

    (I asked before, who -- or what -- is going to fund all this for the next three years? Do Governors who resign get a pension? I always thought she claimed to have no more than the odd moose steak between her and penury.)

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  • 21. At 2:05pm on 06 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    Look, that piece byelined by Amy Sullivan just has to be the most vacuous, specious, self-advertising non-story ever linked to on this blog, and that's saying something.

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  • 22. At 2:32pm on 06 Jul 2009, Vagabond wrote:

    sthitadhibasu: "The USA needs a version of David Cameron" What the!?!

    Do you REALISE good old Eaton-photo protecting toff Dave is plagiarising Obamas mantra of 'broken system' rhetoric in a desperate attempt to lambast the Government for anything he can!?! How anyone can't see that Cameron is simply a white, rich Obama impersonator is beyond all logic and at best, utterly depressing.

    Ergo, the Tories need a British version of a British leader :)

    At least Obama has principles - not to mention one word Cameron has seemingly never heard of. Policies.

    My advice to you; Think, process, THEN speak.

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  • 23. At 3:20pm on 06 Jul 2009, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #18

    If you could provide a more reasonable source than Wikipedia. I watch the Fox Analysis and they said Palin won.

    doesn't matter as Obama won the debate that counted.

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  • 24. At 3:24pm on 06 Jul 2009, carolinalady wrote:

    We will miss you, Justin. Best wishes on your new post and for your son's continuing good health.

    @12: StD...I think you got most of Governor Barbiedoll characterized there, but I am still mystified by the contradictions implied in her resignation. She's honoring her son, serving in Iraq, "because they don't quit" by quitting her job? Maybe my Carolinian neighbors to the south will invite her to finish Gov. Sanford's term, thus uniting her to her base of support and sealing all of them into their little hall of mirrors forever.

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  • 25. At 3:28pm on 06 Jul 2009, OldSouth wrote:

    Godspeed to you and yours on your travels home, as you settle in to your new life.

    Remember us fondly, if you would. We need all the friends we can gather just now.

    And, to all our brothers and sisters in the UK who take such glee in critique of our political culture: Remember who gets to have elections on dates certain.

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  • 26. At 3:45pm on 06 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    "I have suggested it before but let me lay it on the line here in black and white: THE MAN IS A QUAKER. He may not yet know it but that is where his search should end."

    That's very funny. I don't happen to agree but it is funny. President Nixon was a Quaker too. He didn't start out to be a crook...it just happened.

    As I understand the Quaker philosophy, they are basically pacifists. Obama is no pacifist. He wanted the troops out of Iraq so that he could send them to fight in Afghanistan. Was it a coincidence that shortly after his meeting with Pakistan's president they started their own military offensive against the Taleban? Generally Democrats are so weak on foreign policy, they literally paint themselves into a corner where the only way out is war. WWI (an exception, it was sheer stupidity on Wilson's part), WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and with Kennedy, nearly WWIII over Cuba. Obama looks to be starting off in the same direction, Iran and North Korea being clear evidence of lack of will, lack of effective response to very serious and growing threats. Hillary Clinton said during the campaign that Obama was not fit to be Commander-in-Chief. Is she being proved right? How much will Obama give away to the Russians on this visit?

    I'm sure the Republicans will find viable candidates between now and 2012. Sara Palin was a crazy choice for McCain. She came off as more of a soccer mom than as a potential world leader. Kay Bailey Hutchinson would have been an outstanding alternative although it's not clear McCain could have won under any circumstances. I still think Newt Gingrich will take a stab at it. Personally I don't particularly like him for having shut the government down when he was Speaker of the House but I think he's their best high profile choice at the moment.

    BTW, Biden stuck his foot in his mouth again this weekend saying the the Administration had underestimated how serious the economic crisis actually was. The question he left unanswered is; in light of its reassessment, is the stimulus package sufficient to have the desired impact? So far the evidence is that it is not but it may be too soon to tell. By the time we find out, it may be too late.

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  • 27. At 4:17pm on 06 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    Farewell, Justin Webb, best wishes to your family and good health to your small son.

    I do not believe that President Obama is a Quaker. He might fit more appropriately in a UU church (Unitarian Universal) than in a Quaker Meeting House.

    Regarding Sarah Palin, the less said the better but it will be another nine days wonder for the press.

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  • 28. At 4:33pm on 06 Jul 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    Ref 26, Marcus

    "BTW, Biden stuck his foot in his mouth again this weekend saying the the Administration had underestimated how serious the economic crisis actually was. The question he left unanswered is; in light of its reassessment, is the stimulus package sufficient to have the desired impact? So far the evidence is that it is not but it may be too soon to tell. By the time we find out, it may be too late."

    While I believe it is accurate to refer to Biden's acknowledgement as putting his foot in his mouth, from a political perspective, I suspect he is closer to the truth than many give him credit for.

    Signs of a recession began to emerge as early as 2007, when Bush assured us that the economic fundamentals were sound. The truth is that our economy is a mess and that the much derided stimulus package is nothing more than a shot in the arm inadequate to sustain a recovery long enough to allow our defunct corporations, banks, and indebted population to become solvent, restore consumer confidence, and promote investment and spending.

    The "shovel-ready" jobs the administration has been talking about is just a placebo; we need to invest in R&D, modernization, new technologies, and education designed to prepare future generations for the challenges we are facing. If we are not careful, the nation that was once the envy of the world because of its industrial might, wealth, and unlimited opportunities may soon find itself competing with third world countries for whatever crumbs nations like China throw our way.

    The big question is, will we go down without a fight? Our economy and fiscal solvency are a mess, our education system is substandard, but we still have the most powerful and experienced military force in the world. Using history as a guide, it would not surprise me if a different approach is eventually used to solve our problems, and I doubt it will include investments in infrastructure or healthcare reform.

    We are in serious trouble and it is going to take a lot more than wishful thinking, short term solutions, and the blame game to get us out of the mess we are in.

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  • 29. At 4:37pm on 06 Jul 2009, Weeble wrote:

    @MagicKirin #23

    If you follow the Wikipedia link you will see that following the quoted sentence there are footnotes providing a list of citations to support the sentence (this is standard for Wikipedia). One of the links is to this article: http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2008Oct03/0,4670,VicePresidentialDebate,00.html titled "Palin says debate went well as polls favor Biden".

    Hope this helps

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  • 30. At 4:57pm on 06 Jul 2009, seanspa wrote:

    weeble, you are clearly a hater. :)

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  • 31. At 5:00pm on 06 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    steekyjim (#8) "You should be out there reporting facts, not spouting your own personal opinions."

    Who are you to tell Mr. Webb how to do his job? This is an opinion feature, like the editorial and opinion pages of any newspaper.

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  • 32. At 5:08pm on 06 Jul 2009, MontgomeryALyankee wrote:

    "...Sarah Palin train wreck. I suspect that she is actually a Democrat"
    Ah, very good. I enjoy sarcasm. She's finished politically and once again helping the Democrats.
    Sarah seems ready to avoid scandal or make some serious personal money writing a book. Also, I'll bet we'll soon se her as a FOX-"noise" contributer (unless/until they realize how much she helps the Democrats).
    Thank goodness I won't be worried about her being a heartbeat away from being President. Good-bye Republican party.

    Obama as a Quaker? Not a bad choice for him. It seems that is where he'd like to put his heart most of the time, but I'm not convinced that he is a pure pacifist.

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  • 33. At 5:33pm on 06 Jul 2009, David Cunard wrote:

    "Apologies for the silence recently - I have been packing up and preparing to leave the US"

    Couldn't you have spared five minutes? I'm moving house as well, but I still find time to do other things. And I'm older!

    "we are . . . working out the wonders of the American-designed medical technology that my son will use to control his type one diabetes when back in Britain."

    It would be interesting to have the NHS take on it; there must be other young Britons in the same situation. How are they treated? You appear to have fallen into the trap of believing that everything American is necessarily the best the world has. It may come as a surprise, but a great many medical advances are British - the CAT scanner for example. The NHS might even have something more advanced for your son!

    And it's far too early to speculate about Republican contenders, you might just as well consider who will follow Gordon Brown or David Cameron.

    #23. MagicKirin: "I watch the Fox Analysis and they said Palin won."

    They would, wouldn't they?

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  • 34. At 5:33pm on 06 Jul 2009, RogerSeal wrote:

    I'm interested to hear that Mr Obama is a Quaker. Speaking as a Quaker let me say two things:
    Unlike many things, just because someone talks, behaves and appears to think like a Quaker - and is labelled a Quaker by a commentator - doesn't make them a Quaker; they need to be accepted by a proper Quaker Meeting. However secondly, my own sense is that being a Quaker has more to do with asking the right questions than knowing the right answers, and he appears to be on the right lines there. I wonder whether he will apply,and I wonder whether he would be accepted.
    Roger Seal

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  • 35. At 5:58pm on 06 Jul 2009, Ricter wrote:

    Gov. Palin is cashing in her chips. She'd be foolish to stay on as Governor making $110K / yr when she can go on "tour", sign a book deal and make millions. Her husband doesn't look like he can "bring home the bacon", so it's up to her to provide for their large family. She'll do very well financially by resigning and touring the Lower 48. In addition, I think she knew that she had no chance to win a National election of any kind (even a GOP primary). Her appeal is limited to an overwhelmingly white, social-conservative base which is a shrinking demographic. In addition, she'll be able to launch attacks against those that dis-agree without fear of retibution because she'll no longer be responsible for anything....i.e. Rush Limbaugh.

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  • 36. At 6:24pm on 06 Jul 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    Ref 32, Montgomery

    "Sarah seems ready to avoid scandal or make some serious personal money writing a book."

    My first reaction to her decision was incredulous bewilderment, but after giving it some thought I believe she considered her political and personal options long and hard before she decided that being responsible for the tough decisions that a governor must make carried a level of risk she found unacceptable to achieve her goals.

    I expect to see her on all the major news channels, who knows she may even surpass the Michael Jackson regalia, convert to Catholicism, and become a saint. I am happy to say that this agnostic has no plans to kneel in front of a statue of either Michael or Sarah and beg for forgiveness for the audacity of some of my blogging commentaries.

    In spite of her marginal education, limited intellect, and ignorance of national and world affairs; she appeals to many conservatives who sympathize with her personal problems, find her attractive and charismatic, consider her an honest and sincere candidate, and love her folksy form of speech.

    I expect her to become a major fundraiser for the GOP, and would not be surprised if she remains in the limelight for years to come, gets nominated and runs for President. Consider this, W could not put a sentence together, much less articulate a coherent argument and, yet, he was selected and re-elected by a comfortable majority. McCain finished second in his naval academy class, wrecked a couple of planes, dumped his wife when she was no longer an attractive asset to achieve his goals and he came close to being POTUS. We had body builders, wrestlers, second-rate actors, and comedians elected to high office, why not a bimbo?

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  • 37. At 6:46pm on 06 Jul 2009, MasterShogu wrote:

    St Dominick@ 36...."We had body builders, wrestlers, second-rate actors, and comedians elected to high office, why not a bimbo?"

    Hilarious last paragraph! My personal hope is that a friendly dolphin gets the nomination.

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  • 38. At 6:47pm on 06 Jul 2009, duhbuh wrote:

    Ive just been reading an article in today's New York Post about the least popular governor in America. On this person's watch the state senate has become a nasty, factional place where thuggish bodyguards roam. Attempts have been made to bar journalists from covering senate affairs. A mass firing of state employees on racial grounds has caused huge uproar. The governor is openly mocked even by fellow party members. Anarchy and chaos are the order of the day at the state Capitol, and the state itself is on the brink of ruin.

    And where is this? New York. If you're wondering why you haven't heard about it on the BBC let me give you a couple of hints. Governor David Paterson is a Democrat, and hes black.

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  • 39. At 6:53pm on 06 Jul 2009, gunsandreligion wrote:

    Best wishes, Justin, for you and your family as you move on to another
    assignment.

    As a Republican, I'm glad to see Palin resign; hopefully this ends her
    political career and she can move on to being a productive member of the
    glitterati somewhere.

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  • 40. At 7:03pm on 06 Jul 2009, krishnamurthi ramachandran wrote:

    Dear,Mr.Justin,
    You gave a wonderful heading to Sara Palin.
    Nothing happened seriously to her.
    My comments on Sara Palin!s resignation from governorship were published in The New York Times News.
    I like all your writings.
    Republican Party!s think tank became empty as long as our ink describes,she is losing support from the party now and then.
    She is not able to get along with many people.
    Now,time has come to convey her sayings at a appropriate times.
    This is a right time Republicans think twice before selecting a candidate for further elections.
    We want leaders like Mr.Macain,Kennedy,and more or less simlar of Mrs.Clinton for womens votes.
    For other 10 days,we will get more news -pre and post Sara!s effects in American political parties.
    Once again,thanks to you for updates of American politicians drama.

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  • 41. At 7:14pm on 06 Jul 2009, duhbuh wrote:

    Can't the BBC tech bods sort out this ongoing problem with vanishing punctuation? It's something to do with copy and pasting from text documents but "Preview" doesn't pick up on it. The BBC should be promoting the correct use of English, not sabotaging it.



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  • 42. At 7:37pm on 06 Jul 2009, steekyjim wrote:

    Who am I? I'm a license payer who expects mature, unbiased and sensible reporting from the BBC. I don't think they should be using a website that we pay for to spread tabloid-style partisan propoganda like this. If the BBC is going to be biased toward a certain political ideaology then it shouldn't expect to recieve funding from the general public.

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  • 43. At 7:58pm on 06 Jul 2009, Reuben wrote:

    Palin's resignation does mar her record, much like Perot's flip flops in 1992: "I'm running for president, No I'm not, yes I am!"

    dubduh: mdspatsy is a perfect example of someone out to destroy the queen's english, and I'm NOT talking about American english vs. British english.

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  • 44. At 8:17pm on 06 Jul 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    I find it revealing and, indeed, a sad commentary on our society when the topics that dominate our interest are Michael Jackson and Sarah Palin. I listened to an interview between Fareed Zakaria and David Miliband yesterday and was so impressed with the obvious intelligence, education, knowledge of revelant issues, and ability to communicate exhibited by a British politician often denigrated by his fellow citizens that I couldn't help wondering what would happen if our cousins on the other side of the Atlantic would do with a George W. Bush, Sarah Palin, or John Kerry. What amazes me the most is that our country has many highly qualified and honest individuals who would do a wonderful job leading our country, why do we always end up having to choose between the lesser of two evils?

    It is interesting as well that on the day of the death of Robert McNamara, one of the men most responsible for the death of 58,000 Americans and 3 million Vietnamese people, and our President has reached an important - albeit irrelevant - breakthrough with Russia our topic of conversation are tabloid figures.

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  • 45. At 8:18pm on 06 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    steekyjim (#42), Oh, another "license payer" crank. I'll bet this website doesn't cost you tuppance a year, and for that you should get to decide what it contains?

    The BBC Charter and Agreement do not prohibit individual reporters from having and expressing opinions. The Charter does say this, however:

    "The BBC shall be independent in all matters concerning the content of its output, ..."

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  • 46. At 8:32pm on 06 Jul 2009, David Cunard wrote:

    #42. steekyjim: "If the BBC is going to be biased toward a certain political ideaology then it shouldn't expect to recieve funding from the general public."

    You forget the advertising revenues from BBC sites shown abroad. Posters pay for those - and don't object!

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  • 47. At 9:24pm on 06 Jul 2009, U14054759 wrote:

    Gary a hill ,you would not presume to tell others in other nations how to live and have attacked posters for doing so, but you think it a good use of the BBC revenues to tell others what religion they should be?

    Goon I think you hit the nail on the head.I hope. I would be scared if she an for office.Well scared if anyone took her seriously. Like Micheal Jackson I would not be surprised at he hard core devotees. The seem see her as the messiah in a dress.

    "Decent enough compensation" Considering the quality of the reports during the election cycle that Justin was brought to cover I would say that any compensation would be OK. The general reporting has not been of a very high quality (unless provoking outrageous comments is the aim) and the accuracy of assessments and the predictions of Justin have been down right appalling.Were it not for other contacts in the states I would have believed that Obama was a no hoper right up until the day he won.
    Accurate reporting would have shown that people were fairly enthusiastic about Obama.
    Accurate reporting would have shown Guns and religions attitude to Sarah palin rather than some redneck clan member 's views. Because as democracy has shown us it was a more accurate view.

    37 master shogu
    I'd voter for the fish eater but would add that he is not likely to win because he will be linked to flip flopping around.
    Most unfair but the same that would say that would also say flipper was a fish.

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  • 48. At 9:39pm on 06 Jul 2009, ghostofsichuan wrote:

    You don't have to be terribly bright to understand that she is not. She is interested in herself and will venture out into the world of Rush Limbaugh and Fox News, with the intent of making a lot of money. That is it, that is the total of her motivation. I think she understands that fools and their money are soon parted and as long as the parting ends up in her account, that is OK by her. Get ready for some craziness as she attempts to out-right the right and gain a piece of that right-wing money pie.
    Political in Alaska, or rich in Florida.....seems an easy choice.

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  • 49. At 9:39pm on 06 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Mr. Webb, how do you suppose an American journalist working for an American news reporting organization would be received by Brits in a mirror image blog in the UK commenting on British politics from an American perspective? Do you think if he was physically there, he'd make it out of the UK alive? :-)

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  • 50. At 9:59pm on 06 Jul 2009, canadacold wrote:

    My best wishes to you and your family

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  • 51. At 10:03pm on 06 Jul 2009, Orville Eastland wrote:

    In regards to Palin, I lost any chance of backing her after hearing two sentences of her acceptance speech. (I've told it before numerous times...) And, alas, someone on CNN may have preempted me from quoting a BBC character's six-word take down of a politician.
    That said, I'm surprised that the media hasn't been tougher on Palin. They have covered a few gaffes, mocked her family life and speaking style. On the other hand, they have falsely reported that she was cleared of any wrongdoing by an "independent commission" (It wasn't independent, and the REAL independent commission found numerous false statements and abuse of power- which isn't a crime in Alaska, unlike Illinois...), ignored the attacks on her by her fellow Republicans (Including then-State Senate President Lyda Green (R-Wasilla)), ignored the favoritism towards EnCana. I'm sure Alaskans can mention numerous other scandals that I don't know about. I hope Americans learn from her (and others- from both parties) that shallow, platitude-filled candiates are on the way to disaster.
    Nice to see you're visiting SC.

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  • 52. At 10:09pm on 06 Jul 2009, alphamiguel wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 53. At 10:21pm on 06 Jul 2009, GeorgetteHardy wrote:

    I am actually in the UK and if I have to hear one more crack about the BBC and "I'm a license fee payer..." Whilst not perfect, this and other blogs on this site are not meant to be reporting!

    Why can't people understand purpose, audience and tone? These may just differ between different parts of a website- even a BBC one! I enjoy reading this blog although I rarely comment. And, considering Mr. Webb regularly gets accused of being biased towards and against Obama,I would suggest that he has therefore been fairly even-handed in his commentary(not reporting!) and hopefully I will enjoy Mr. Mardell's comment as much. I am hopeful as I have often enjoyed his reports and articles.
    Oh, and, even though it has its faults, like any organisation, the BBC does a good job.
    Anyway, thanks and all the best, Justin!

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  • 54. At 10:22pm on 06 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#37 Mastershogu

    That dolphin can have my vote!

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  • 55. At 10:29pm on 06 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#49 MarcusareliusII

    I think an American journalist would probably come out of the Uk alive but if that person happened to be from a certain news agency he might possibly be tarred and feathered first.

    After all, when you kill something you really should plan to eat it and I doubt a suitable recipe could be found for that.

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  • 56. At 10:36pm on 06 Jul 2009, GeorgetteHardy wrote:

    As for Sarah Palin, I do have to say that she came across as supremely clueless in all the footage of the election that I have seen. Surely, the Republicans have better than her? However, I am not familiar the rundown of available 'talent' so I will stand corrected if I am wrong.

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  • 57. At 10:59pm on 06 Jul 2009, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    # 38 duhbuh wrote:

    "And where is this? New York. If you're wondering why you haven't heard about it on the BBC let me give you a couple of hints. Governor David Paterson is a Democrat, and hes black."

    Poor duhbuh. I fear you may have momentarily doffed the ol' tinfoil headgear and been brainwashed.. Don't you realise this creeping pinko-commie-Muslim-lesbian-liberal bias is EVERYWHERE?

    For example, I regularly read Rupert Murdoch's Sunday Times, which often has 2-3 US political stories from the US. But not one word about Gov Whatisname. So clearly even Rupert Murdoch has been infected by pinko-commie-Muslim-lesbian-liberalism.

    I also often see the Daily Mail. [Well - it's cheap.] Again, I haven't seen one word on Gov Thingummyjig. So, if even the Daily Mail has succumbed to pinko-commie-Muslim-lesbian-liberalism - what hope is there?

    ['It's Political Correctness gone mad, I tell you!' - as the Mail would probably comment.]

    Of course, there is an alternative to the theory of Pinko-commie-Muslim-lesbian-liberalism from the BBC coming to kill us all in our beds.

    There is the fact that there are 50 Governors in the US. And the average Brit, if pressed, could probably think of 2. Arnie. And that goodlooking but not so bright lady with the glasses who was on the TV a lot last year.

    I suspect they are crying out for stories on a Governor they have never heard of about as much as the average New Yorker is crying out for more stories on the troubles of Gordon Blair, The President of Britishland....

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  • 58. At 11:03pm on 06 Jul 2009, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    And of course best of luck and best wishes to JW and his family on their return to Blighty.

    I'm not sure if the Americans here will appreciate the importance of the Today Programme in the UK - it's pretty much a national institution and v influential. I doubt if there's any radio programme in the US that would have a similar national impact.

    So - Go Justin!

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  • 59. At 11:39pm on 06 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#53 and #56 Gogrettehardy

    Excellent posts!

    I am sorry you do not post here more often. As an American reader I will add that I appreciate the BBC and the opportunity to post here on this blog.

    I said in a previous post that Sarah Palin will be a nine days wonder in the press but she is hardly worthy of much more.

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  • 60. At 00:06am on 07 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    "We had body builders, wrestlers, second-rate actors, and comedians elected to high office, why not a bimbo? " Saint Dominick

    Don't forget womenizers, members of Congress that had prostitution rings run out of their apartments (Barney Frank), pedophiles with nasty emails, crooks, cronyism, nepotism, and former coke heads (Franken, Kennedy) only in America geez!
    Good luck Justin, I wish you were more objective, but good luck none the less. I truely wish the best for you and your family, and was glad to read of your praise of American medical devices under our system. I can't help but wonder if this will change with socialized medicine? I am still looking for your book in the libary system, seems others have used that title before you. But will find it somewhere.

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  • 61. At 00:15am on 07 Jul 2009, krishnamurthi ramachandran wrote:

    Mrs.Sara Palin had created more spaces for mass media networks as well as to Americans for talking,train,shopping,retired persons day today briefing and even in clubs.
    She had given a weightage to sensational journalism.
    Since how long it will be in circulation?
    Only time will tell the difference.
    Best wishes to Mr.Justin and his family.
    I wish that,he will bring more lively world happenings in a journalistic live relay.

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  • 62. At 00:35am on 07 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    john-In-Dublin (#57), " ... about as much as the average New Yorker is crying out for more stories on the troubles of Gordon Blair, ... "

    Brown we've heard of (although it appears you haven't). A better example would be a story on the travails of the First Minister of Wales.

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  • 63. At 00:45am on 07 Jul 2009, U14054759 wrote:

    Georgette hardy. the problem with Justins posts are that he seems to say things that make little sense.
    What is the point in reporting an election from one side. The only ones that support the view that he is a lefty are those that get banned for racial bias and other such niceties. At some stage truth and honesty should come into play.
    Throughout the election cycle Guns and religion seemed to embody the sensible right . A few nutters like Magickirin seemed to be so right there was no hope.Justin did seem to be closer to the Kirin thoughts than the Guns and religion.
    Justin made no predictions but did write as if he thought his views were held by many as opposed to thew few. Then Sarah Palin came to the scene, it took a while before he could admit she was useless. (not that he did). He has continually and still tries to pretend that the healthcare debate is being misrepresented and that it is not so bad here in the states.
    Then his son got ill.
    Either way the BBC has much better and insiteful commentators and I suspect this was one of those promotions to get him away from being ridiculed for getting so much so wrong.
    He would be exceptional at that ,if it were not for a few other posters that manage to show Justin up for being the rank amateur that he is when compared to them.(at least I said one nice thing about him)

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  • 64. At 00:47am on 07 Jul 2009, U14054759 wrote:

    john in dublin "it's pretty much a national institution and v influential."

    That s in it's,is that to signify is or was?

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  • 65. At 00:55am on 07 Jul 2009, U14054759 wrote:

    55 Aquarizonagal
    I like that.

    49 Marcus , you say blah blah blah and it is an interesting question in a way. There is little doubt he would not make it out alive. The Brit Ex pats tend to be British and less prone to killing people because they disagree.The US ex pats however are a different kettle of fish.Being as they are american I would assume they are more likely to get rid of the guy in London. Justin has said nothing derogatory about the states despite living in Washington (or south carolina) but has tried to deride most things British as being backwards compared to the new world(what a sucker).
    Don't worry I don't expect you to get it so no need to reply.(of course do if you want unlike some I care not to sort through the trash).


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  • 66. At 01:05am on 07 Jul 2009, seanspa wrote:

    joe, you weren't posting during the election. It seemed to me at the time that most of justin's posts then set out to ridicule palin. He constantly compared her to obama, and completely ignored biden and his gaffes.

    This is his parting shot for those that did not get where he was coming from at the time.

    His posts always seemed mischievous rather than informative. I agree though that he seemed to change his tune on healthcare once his son fell ill. I can't help wondering if daschle had promised him advancements in asthma treatment and that's why he has claimed more than once that daschle was irreplaceable.

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  • 67. At 01:28am on 07 Jul 2009, U14054759 wrote:

    66 Seanspa. Agreed he was not a great fan of Palin. Before that he seemed to be a Hillary supporter if any form of democrat , but he seemed to favour the republicans.He could have been playing the devils advocate of course, but that is the danger with subtlety. Many of the posts seemed to pander to the less thoughtful posters.
    As for Biden Gaffs.They never seemed to get close to the Gaffs of McCain and his highly insulting words to his wife(which he left out) while he harped on and on about Rev wright.
    I have Republican relatives in the states(wow shock to some I do understand the US more than they think)who remarked that he had fought for his country and was a patriot and a hero,thought they thought his words could have been better phrased but then also accepted he was not running).
    Occasionally people have to talk straight to say something. too much wishy washy non comitals tend to just lead to people interpreting things as they see it. Like much modern art.
    If the artist truly wants to say something they sometimes have to leave less to the imagination of the reader or view .

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  • 68. At 01:53am on 07 Jul 2009, mp2dtw wrote:

    Since he's so fond of appointing Republicans to key offices for the appearance of inclusion, perhaps President Obama should make Mrs Palin the next ambassador to Russia.

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  • 69. At 02:10am on 07 Jul 2009, Granten wrote:

    While it's not as though Quakerism would be incompatible with the presidency (Nixon was a Quaker), I fail to see how he is more suited for Quakerism than any other faith. Besides that, I could suggest several nice Meetings around Philadelphia and New York. The Yearly Meeting in particular would provide enough debate to easily resemble any White House argument.

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  • 70. At 02:20am on 07 Jul 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    Judging by his commentaries, I believe Justin Webb is a great admirer of the USA, is impressed with our way of life and the opportunities our country has to offer, and respects our form of government. When he points out our flaws or shortcomings he does it fairly and constructively. Hopefully his replacement will be half as good a journalist and editor as he is.

    I wish him the best in his new job and hope his son lives a happy and long life. Diabetes is a serious condition, but it is treatable.

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  • 71. At 02:31am on 07 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    55. At 10:29pm on 06 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#49 MarcusareliusII

    I think an American journalist would probably come out of the Uk alive


    Dear me no. You see them hanging from the lampposts from time to time. You can tell, they have these laminated 'press credential' things dangling from their chains. I think we have a Fox in the Tower at the moment as a tourist attraction. Replaces the lion they kept there once. Refused to pay the Congestion Charge, I gather. (Fox, not lion.)

    62. Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    john-In-Dublin (#57), " ... about as much as the average New Yorker is crying out for more stories on the troubles of Gordon Blair, ... "

    Brown we've heard of (although it appears you haven't).


    I think you need an irony tonic.


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  • 72. At 02:58am on 07 Jul 2009, NoRashDecisions wrote:

    tailoredvagabond #22: '"Do you REALISE good old Eaton-photo protecting toff Dave is plagiarising Obamas mantra of 'broken system' rhetoric in a desperate attempt to lambast the Government for anything he can!?! How anyone can't see that Cameron is simply a white, rich Obama impersonator is beyond all logic and at best, utterly depressing."

    Now hold on there for just one moment! I agree that Cameron has plagiarised Obama a bit too much, but then again, Brown has as well. Heck! Brown has plagiarised Biden for crying out loud!! And I do believe that Sarkozy has also if not plagiarised, then quoted Obama quite a few times. But I don't believe that Cameron's message is entirely misplaced. Though parts of it may have been plagiarised, the underlying argument is essentialy the same. And it is of a change of government and a reconnection with its people. Any party/leader in any democracy will argue for, and promis those same principles when the opposition has been in power for a long time and/or they sense that the public is becomeing restless and hungry for something new.

    So I would advise against judging Cameron too quickly.

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  • 73. At 03:21am on 07 Jul 2009, NoRashDecisions wrote:

    OldSouth #25: '"Remember us fondly, if you would. We need all the friends we can gather just now."

    I know you're a Republican and you don't care too much for Obama's policies, but I thought we as a nation had become much more popular on the world stage since Bush left the scene. I mean to my knoledge, the only people who have been protesting against us have been the predictable Iranian hardline claricks. Is my knoledge misplaced? Are we hated more than I realized? Has Obama not really done much in the way of improvement of our standing in the world?

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  • 74. At 03:29am on 07 Jul 2009, neil_a2 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 75. At 03:54am on 07 Jul 2009, neil_a2 wrote:

    Palin may be reverting to be a normal citizen so that she has legal recourse against those that slander, libel, or engage in other forms of denigration at her and her family's expense.

    Palin may have other political ambitions, but until officially launches that effort, she can sue those whose slander or libel damage her or her family.

    Personally, I found it distasteful that many who denigrated her based their positions on SNL or peer rhetoric.

    I found Justin's comparison of Palin and Obama (for position of President?) humorous as I felt neither was qualified based on their campaign answers. Palin's answers were poor in content and construction. Obama's answers were well constructed but poor in content (often just boilerplate and totally without substance).

    Justin, glad you were here. Come back when you can.

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  • 76. At 03:59am on 07 Jul 2009, NoRashDecisions wrote:

    SaintDominick #28: I think we just need to bite the bullet and force ourselves, no matter how diffacult it may be, to accept the fact that sooner rather than later, China will out perform us in everything. They have 1 billion to their population! We only have 300 million. So its really just a matter of math. Even if we did everything you have pashonetly called for numerous times on here, they would still at least catch up with us at some point. Besides, you honestly don't think that the "new approach" that we'll most likely take based on your assessment of history will be to militarily conqur other countries and steal their health care and education plans and ideas since apparently the only thing we're decent at is our military. Do you? Gotta tell ya, that is a very, very frightening prospect!!

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  • 77. At 04:05am on 07 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    squirrelist (#71) "I think you need an irony tonic."

    I got the joke, but just didn't think it was a very good one.

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  • 78. At 04:33am on 07 Jul 2009, BraunSA wrote:

    Many thanks Justin, I love reading your blog! I just finished your book "Have a nice day". It was very interesting, even if I don't see eye to eye with you on everything. I think the GOP is in better shape then you realize. Once the wheat has been separated from the chaff, the next leader will emerge, and I don't believe it is Pawlenty, but time will tell. With each decision made by the current administration, the GOP will have the votes from the big block of voters in the middle of the bell curve who are sick and off balance from leaning to far to the left! The trick for the GOP is to bring that balance, and that will win the day!
    I trust the BBC knows what they are doing and has an able correspondant to fill your shoes.

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  • 79. At 05:00am on 07 Jul 2009, NoRashDecisions wrote:

    David_Cunard #33: '"You appear to have fallen into the trap of believing that everything American is necessarily the best the world has. It may come as a surprise, but a great many medical advances are British - the CAT scanner for example. The NHS might even have something more advanced for your son!"

    If he has I don't see any evidence of it displayed in this particular post. All he said was that he was currently "working out the wonders" of the American made technology that will be used to help his son. Nowhere did he say or imply that American invented anything, medical or otherwise, is the best the world has to offer, merely that the technology that he has chosen to use happened to have been invented in America. Nor is he denying that Britain hasn't invented an equal amount, if not more, medical technologies and/or made just as many medical breakthroughs as America has. Further more, I personally wouldn't be surprised in the least if the NHS did have something better then we do for his son, as the NHS doesn't have the burden of constantly battling greedy insurance companies. Relax. everyone knows the priceless contribution Britain has made to the medical industry.

    "And it's far too early to speculate about Republican contenders, you might just as well consider who will follow Gordon Brown or David Cameron."

    Due to the fact that politicions don't fear monger nearly as much in the UK, it is practicly a forgone conclusion that David Cameron will win the next general election. So perhaps a better annalogy would be that one might just as well consider who will follow Barack Obama assuming he gets re-elected.

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  • 80. At 05:37am on 07 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Canard;

    "The NHS might even have something more advanced for your son!"

    If it does, he'd probably have to go on a waiting list so long that by the time it's his turn to get it, he'll have been dead for six months.

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  • 81. At 06:04am on 07 Jul 2009, NoRashDecisions wrote:

    SaintDominick #44: '"I find it revealing and, indeed, a sad commentary on our society when the topics that dominate our interest are Michael Jackson and Sarah Palin. I listened to an interview between Fareed Zakaria and David Miliband yesterday and was so impressed with the obvious intelligence, education, knowledge of revelant issues, and ability to communicate exhibited by a British politician often denigrated by his fellow citizens that I couldn't help wondering what would happen if our cousins on the other side of the Atlantic would do with a George W. Bush, Sarah Palin, or John Kerry. What amazes me the most is that our country has many highly qualified and honest individuals who would do a wonderful job leading our country, why do we always end up having to choose between the lesser of two evils?"

    First, where did you listen to this interview? I'd like to look it up. Second, I don't know what Brits you have been conversing with, but based on the blogs and poles I've seen, not one has "denigrated" David Miliband. They denigrate, or rather speack harsh truths about Gordon Brown all the time, but not one word of unkindness has been written about Miliband. And if there is bad feeling toward him, I doubt that it is because of his intellijence and knoledge of relevant issues. Rather it is probably due to policies that people pashonetly disagree with. The British are just simply not the kind of people to look down on someone for their obvious intelectual qualifications for a highly nationally representative job such as foreign secritary unlike, sadly, Republicans are here.

    I'm pretty sure that our cousins on the other side of the Atlantic wouldn't let a George W. Bush or Sarah Palin get anywhere near politics, and if they did I would be very, very surprised. The British tend to choose their politicions for the right reasons I.E. qualifications and preparedness, As aposed to us, who more often than not (I don't believe always as you do!!) but far too much choose them based on who has the more compelling personal life story and who is most like "Joe the plumber."

    Insidentally, I don't agree that we "always end up having to choose between the lesser of two evils" as you do. Need I remind you, that Obama was voted president of the Harvard law review and was a professor of constitutional law at Chicago University before he even ran for Senate. Now I know that he is the first in a long time with an intilect such as that to run or be seriously considered for the office of the presidency, but at least we have a smart guy now. Also, I can't understand for the life of me why you lumped John Kerry in with Sarah Palin and George W. Bush. He's very articulit, he's not ditzy and he's not stupid. So if you could please explain that to me I would greatly appreciate it.

    Thanks

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  • 82. At 06:53am on 07 Jul 2009, KScurmudgeon wrote:

    Best wishes and healing to you and to yours, Justin. Thanks for keeping us all busy.

    KScurmudgeon

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  • 83. At 07:16am on 07 Jul 2009, U14054759 wrote:

    John in Dublin. Excellent posts 57 and 58 I like the comment about the daily dumb down and the So-go comment(though I am not sure as to the joy experienced when he is on the today show,still it is summer and fun is to be had in places that have no electricity.

    60 American Grizzly, if you are to go on about coke heads I assumed you would include the one that made it to being president and yet managed to not make it to vietnam despite having flying skills appropriate to the situation.




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  • 84. At 07:32am on 07 Jul 2009, U14054759 wrote:

    70 St dominick.
    "Hopefully his replacement will be half as good a journalist and editor as he is."
    Then we have no hope.

    71 squirrelist. Had you not got the recipe yet? I think it was printed in "What to do with them pesky journalists " digest last month.

    No rash decision .
    72" Brown has plagiarised Biden for crying out loud!!".So you mean he plagiarized Niel Kinnock then ;-)

    79 Justin has tried to make it seem as if the US system of healthcare was better and that America was "exceptional". Which it is.

    81 "I couldn't help wondering what would happen if our cousins on the other side of the Atlantic would do with a George W. Bush, Sarah Palin, or John Kerry. "
    In many cases they would get real tough with them. In some cases they would fawn over them treating them as Gods.
    It depends,those still in the UK tend to still have the blunt edge required to get to some truth.Those that are too sharp just cut themselves.

    75 niel a2.
    I hate to tell you this but she got off lightly. There was no mention on blogs like this of her secession aims, there were no links to mad priests exorcising people the press stayed away from all the juicy stuff. The people didn't thank god.


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  • 85. At 07:35am on 07 Jul 2009, David Cunard wrote:

    #79. NoRashDecisions: "If he has I don't see any evidence of it displayed in this particular post. All he said was that he was currently "working out the wonders" of the American made technology that will be used to help his son.

    "The wonders" implies something not available elsewhere, and certainly not in the UK. Had you been reading this blog long enough, you would know Justin's predilection for everything American rather than the more elusive properties of anything British. He even uses American slang to bolster his adopted Americanism.

    "everyone knows the priceless contribution Britain has made to the medical industry."

    Everyone? I think not. I once had a heated argument with a prominent heart specialist who swore up and down that the CAT/CT scanner was an American development. One of the less attractive features of life in the USA , albeit a minor irritation, is the fact that Americans tend to think that anything and everything modern and useful, regardless of discipline, originated in North America. Radio, television, radar &c., &c.

    "it is practicly a forgone conclusion that David Cameron will win the next general election."

    Quite probably, but I didn't address that supposition. I thought that consideration of a future Republican presidential nominee was as pointless as wondering who might follow both David Cameron and Gordon Brown.

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  • 86. At 08:13am on 07 Jul 2009, BienvenueEnLouisiana wrote:

    Justin, I hope you enjoyed our Independence Day festivities despite having to pack up for your move back across the Atlantic. Good luck to and your family, and thanks for keeping things interesting.

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  • 87. At 09:12am on 07 Jul 2009, BienvenueEnLouisiana wrote:

    85:
    Actually, the CAT or CT system was independently developed by Allan McLeod Cormack of South Africa in Massachusetts and by Sir Godfrey Hounsfield in the UK. Both men shared the Nobel Prize in 1979 for its invention, seeing as Hounsfield used Cormacks 1964 & 1965 medical papers to build the original prototype in 1971.
    The first generation scanner used in England was actually called an EMI-scanner and it required a water-tank for various reasons.
    The second generation scanner, developed by Robert S. Ledley in 1973 at Georgetown University in D.C., was called the ACTA (Automatic Computerized Transverse Axial) scanner; it was faster than the EMI and had no water-tank.
    Todays CT scanners are ACTA scanners, but with much better computer systems.

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  • 88. At 10:28am on 07 Jul 2009, JayneElizaMac wrote:

    The thing that has really caught my eye in your blog is this paragraph:
    "But before going, we are at an undisclosed location (alright: Kiawah Island, South Carolina) working out the wonders of the American-designed medical technology that my son will use to control his type one diabetes when back in Britain."
    I would be very interested in learning more about this "technology" as I have a 5 year old grandson who was diagnosed with type one diabetes when he was only 2 years old. Also Justins views on why this is his/their prefered treatment compared with what is prescribed in the UK as I feel all children with this condition should have the opportunity to benefit from new technology.

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  • 89. At 10:36am on 07 Jul 2009, rodidog wrote:

    #83 joepinapples,

    Bush joined the ANG in 1968, became a certified F-102 pilot in 1970. He did not have the 500hrs flight time required for ANG pilots being rotated to Vietnam under "Palace Alert" before they stopped accepting new applicants.

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  • 90. At 11:48am on 07 Jul 2009, American Sport Fan wrote:

    I haven't really commented on Ms Palins friday speach but I have to say that it was AWFUL. She couldn't stay on topic, she went from talking about legislative agenda, to basketball ( comparing herself to a point guard leading the team), to working in the private sector to talking about her family, to American Football. She was all over the place. Now I don't want to read to much into this, but she seems to have angered mainstream republican strategists such as Karl Rove and Ed Rollins who have openly called her a quitter. Maybe she realized that she had gotten in over her head and decided she had to get out.

    Watching Countdown last night, Kieth Olbermen noted how at one time Gov. Palin's career path almost crossed with his career path. Apparantly, Gov. Palin originally wanted to work in Bristol, Conneticut as an Anchor for ESPN's SportsCenter. Olberman used to host that show. Mzybe Gov. Palin should apply for a job at ESPN I'm sure she has some interesting opinions on the world of professional sports. Maybe she can become a producer. Maybe she'll be happier that way.

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  • 91. At 12:48pm on 07 Jul 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    Ref 90, American

    "Mzybe Gov. Palin should apply for a job at ESPN I'm sure she has some interesting opinions on the world of professional sports."

    The last thing we need is to see or hear Sarah Palin on a daily basis. My advice to her is to apply for a job with the Parks Department with special focus on protecting the moose population of Alaska...preferably in the tundra. An igloo with a very small exit would be ideal for a permanent office.

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  • 92. At 12:58pm on 07 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    90. At 11:48am on 07 Jul 2009, AmericanSportFan

    You mean she could do a kind of Ronnie Raygun reverse career path? Governor>sports commentator>actor>President?

    I can certainly see her doing homely commercials for Drive-in Shoot-your-Own Mooseburgers. Or a centre-fold nude shot in PlayPolarBare or PlayWolf?

    (I am available for a PR post. Pass that on. please. As long as she moves somewhere warmer than Alaska. And as long as the money's good. Max Clifford's got nothing on me!)

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  • 93. At 1:03pm on 07 Jul 2009, wattsgoingon wrote:

    Well, we'll certainly miss you Justin. I know the beeb like to rotate their foreign correspondents, but it's shame someone as good as you can't stay as long as you like.

    The Palin thing is crazy - she can't really believe she has a shot at the Presidency surely? Then again, maybe she does. She'll soon find out she's wrong I hope!

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  • 94. At 1:06pm on 07 Jul 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    Ref 81, NRD

    "First, where did you listen to this interview?"

    I listened to it on CNN on Sunday. The host of the program is Fareed Zakaria who usually has very interesting guests in his show.

    Yoou are right, my comment on presidential choices should have read something like "why do we so often end up having to choose between the lesser of two evils...or inept candidates". I had no problem voting for Barack Obama, that was one of the easiest voting decisions I have made in my long life, and I am glad I did. He may not be able to solve all the problems that afflict us, but he should be able to improve our image abroad, and mitigate the effects of some of our domestic problems. Unfortunately, it is going to take a magician to give us the illusion of hope and prosperity we enjoyed until a few decades ago.

    Please excuse my pessimism and frustration, but my youngest son (43) lost his job on Thursday when his company laid off 30% of its workforce and it is getting ready to file for bankruptcy. Ironically, he submitted a $130K order from one of his clients two hours before he getting his pink slip. These are very hard times for all Americans, and even employees rated as outstanding are being laid off as a result of our defunct economy and, in this case, because our manufacturing industry can not compete with chinese companies that produce the same items at a fraction of the cost.

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  • 95. At 1:19pm on 07 Jul 2009, GBEfromNJ wrote:

    It is amazing that analysts are studying the garble that Gov. Palin spoke, breathed, gasped.

    It is amazing that anyone troubles to "interpret" incoherence.

    Gov. Palin wants, or wanted, or was not able, under the duress of negative attention, to "progress Alaska." Shouldn't it be a disqualification from high office if you do not know how to use "progress" as a verb? Shouldn't it be a disqualification from entrance to high school, for crying out loud?

    One of the most depressing things about my country is how much attention it gives to nonsense.

    I just hope Sarah Palin's "higher calling" does not aim to include me.

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  • 96. At 1:19pm on 07 Jul 2009, BobPhila wrote:

    Good luck in the UK. Don't hurry back.

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  • 97. At 1:22pm on 07 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    NoRash (72)

    And they're all plagiarising Bliar:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYkGThMYmbk

    ;-)

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  • 98. At 1:45pm on 07 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    91. At 12:48pm on 07 Jul 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    " An igloo with a very small exit would be ideal for a permanent office."

    But with a 'mooseflap' at the back so they can sneak in and get their own back. Why do people want to shoot such a mournful looking animal? Or is that why they look so sad?

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  • 99. At 1:52pm on 07 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    95. At 1:19pm on 07 Jul 2009, GBEfromNJ wrote:

    It is amazing that analysts are studying the garble that Gov. Palin spoke, breathed, gasped.

    What's increasingly irritating me is that that seems to be all anybody's doing. Ad nauseam. Why aren't reporters working the phones and doorstepping to get more direct from the moose's mouth? Or her mates? (Even she must have some.) Or don't they have reporters over there any more, only 'op-ed columnists'? It's very lazy.

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  • 100. At 1:52pm on 07 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    St Dom,

    • "my comment on presidential choices should have read something like "why do we so often end up having to choose between the lesser of two evils...or inept candidates". I had no problem voting for Barack Obama, that was one of the easiest voting decisions I have made in my long life, and I am glad I did. He may not be able to solve all the problems that afflict us, but he should be able to improve our image abroad, and mitigate the effects of some of our domestic problems."
    Agreed! My first vote in forty years!

    As to
    Ms Half-baked Alaska, it shouldn't be beyond the wit of those interested to imagine appropriate search terms....

    And Justin, I've enjoyed your provocative blog entries, and I look forward to hearing you most mornings. Best wishes to you and your family on your re-entry to civilisation.

    ;-)

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  • 101. At 1:59pm on 07 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    97: Hesiodos

    More like human cloning. And I thought they only did horses dogs and cats. Scary, isn't it?

    (That woman has a heavy-ish jaw when you look. . .Where's the surrogate moose?)

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  • 102. At 2:05pm on 07 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    80. At 05:37am on 07 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    Canard;

    "The NHS might even have something more advanced for your son!"

    If it does, he'd probably have to go on a waiting list so long that by the time it's his turn to get it, he'll have been dead for six months."

    Better than dying in the car park because he has no insurance, is unemployed and is the wrong colour.

    Europeans live longer than Americans, (so do Costa Ricans for a wonder) whihc in yur case is a tragedy as I am sure you will agree.


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  • 103. At 2:30pm on 07 Jul 2009, SaintOne wrote:

    #80

    "Europeans live longer than Americans"

    Think that might be something to do with gun laws rather than medicinal care....

    I jest.

    Best of luck Mr.Webb!

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  • 104. At 2:32pm on 07 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    Oh, no. Not again!

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  • 105. At 2:46pm on 07 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Simple Simon

    In recent testimony before a Congressional committee broadcast on C-Span, a Canadian doctor testified to my amazement that when you remove factors like automobile accidents and murders, despite their frequently unhealthy lifestyle, Americans live longer than any other people on earth, due in large measure to them having the best medical care. If what you said was true, people would be dropping in the streets like flies since at least 40 million Americans don't have medical insurance but it doesn't happen. Everyone gets medical care including illegal aliens. America's medical system is not broken although it is at times frayed at the edges (two hours to get an asprin in a hospital) and shows occasional blemishes and scars (a woman allowed to die lying on the floor of the waiting area in an emergency room in a hospital in LA) but on the whole, America offers the best medical care in the world.

    Although it is true the system is tiered to a degree depending on how much insurance/money you have, the lowest tier is at least the equal of anyone elses including France's. What is broken is the system of paying for it. The problem stems from fixing that in a way that doesn't wreck the medical care system itself. We do not want Canada or the UK or any other system that we know of here because their fatal faults would destroy our medical system and it would deteriorate to equal their level. If this were an easy problem it would have been solved already and no lobby of medical insurance execs would have been able to stand in its way in Congress. Nobody has figured out a way that looks like it will work yet. There are no free lunches, there is no such thing as free medical care anywhere. One way or another it gets paid for. The question is by whom and how.

    Mr. Webb will be back. They always come back. At first it may be special work assignments, meetings, or company paid junkets on the pretext of meetings and assignments. Then vacations. Then visiting the doctors to have them check on his son to see how his followup treatment is going. Eventually there will be some "compelling" reason to come back for good such as "needing" to be close to a grown child who gets a job and relocates here. Or it may just be getting fed up with the miserable weather in England. It always happens even if it takes 10 or 20 years. There will be a lot of daydreaming and reminiscing when he gets back to England in the interim. He's got the bug in him.

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  • 106. At 2:58pm on 07 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    102, Simon21

    What'll really upset him is that French life expectancy is a year longer than the British. Though the figures you generally see are either several years out of date or are estimates, it should be noted. What is it in Noo Joisey? (Asks hopefully?)


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  • 107. At 3:20pm on 07 Jul 2009, NoRashDecisions wrote:

    U14015759 #84: '"79 Justin has tried to make it seem as if the US system of healthcare was better and that America was "exceptional". Which it is."

    Actually, I respectfully disagree. I think that he has been very fair minded indeed when comparing our two systems. He has praised the good aspects of our system and criticised the bad aspects (or rather the one unforgivable aspect,) which is that 50 million Americans are uninsured. But thank you ever so much for your flattering remarks on so-called "American exceptionalism!" I'm kind of on the fence on that myself, but I should warn you, about (I would venture) at least 50% of your fellow citizens disagree with that stance, and about 90% most definatly on the perception that the American health care system is better than the British. So be prepared to defend yourself very vigarously on these pages.

    At #81, I was actually quoting another poster at #44 if you would like to take a look at his thoughts. But thank you regardless for the enlightening information. It was very interesting indeed.

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  • 108. At 3:50pm on 07 Jul 2009, David Cunard wrote:

    #100. Hesiodos - Welcome back!

    But why is every post following shown in bold type? Even this one, if the Preview is to be believed.

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  • 109. At 3:50pm on 07 Jul 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    Life expectancy actuarials normally exclude accidental deaths and suicides. Most importantly, there are as many fatalities as a result of car accidents in Europe as there are in the USA. After all, driving in Spain, Italy and a few other european countries can be more exhilarating than an African safari! Lane lines seem to be nothing more than Picasso abstract creations.

    I believe the country with the best longevity record is Andorra. Don't know if it is the Pyrenees, garlic, or the Bishop that helps run the place, but something seems to be working right there. Then again, it could be that they don't have any McDonalds and, if they do, they don't "super size".

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  • 110. At 3:53pm on 07 Jul 2009, lawchicago wrote:

    Hey Justin ,sorry to see you go ..come back often ( bring money)

    Best of luck in the UK

    I have enjoyed your time with us .

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  • 111. At 4:05pm on 07 Jul 2009, David Cunard wrote:

    #87. BienvenueEnLouisiana:

    "The first generation scanner used in England was actually called an EMI-scanner"

    That's because the company which developed it was EMI; the same EMI that gave us The Beatles, it's original name being Electric & Musical Industries Ltd. The musical division has been spun off, much like Rolls Royce aero (jet engines) and motors cars were.

    But you underscore my original observation, that Americans like to claim everything was invented by them, rather than letting the passing comment stand. Such a detailed retort illustrates exactly what I meant.

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  • 112. At 4:05pm on 07 Jul 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    The quality of our healthcare system is excellent for those that can afford it or have good insurance coverage. The best that uninsured people can hope for is care at an emergency room. Preventive care is only available when their income is below poverty line and they qualify for MEDICAID.

    In the case of people who have lost their jobs, like one of my sons just did, the only option is COBRA which costs between $700 and $1,000 a month. Unemployment benefits in some states barely cover the COBRA charges, which leaves families without the ability to pay their mortgage, car payment, utilities and buy food. Some unemployed and uninsured people opt to go without COBRA or any type of insurance because they can not afford it and because they are young and healthy. Others, like my son who has a son with cerebral palsy on a wheel chair have to choose between paying the exhorbitant COBRA premium and eating.

    Yes, we do have medical facilities and capabilities that often exceed those of most countries, but our healthcare system is unfair and almost inhumane. A nation that calls itself a Christian society, and one that claims to be Nr. 1 and the envy of the world, can do better than that.

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  • 113. At 4:06pm on 07 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    I believe Andorra is also a peaceful nation with no standing army. This may also contribute to higher life expectancy.

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  • 114. At 4:17pm on 07 Jul 2009, seanspa wrote:

    NRD, MA misses the worse aspect of the US system. The cost. The system is design to make people a lot of money. Healthcare is just a by-product.

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  • 115. At 4:22pm on 07 Jul 2009, SaintOne wrote:

    #113

    Not to mention extremely small. I'm sure that plays a part in it. More doctors per head perhaps?

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  • 116. At 4:33pm on 07 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#114 Seanspa

    Health care in the US is just another commodity, bought and sold to the highest bidder. Keep demand high, supply expensive and limited, reap large profits.

    That concept should be enough to sicken the heart of America. It is wrong, evil and unconscionable.

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  • 117. At 4:38pm on 07 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#112 Saintdominick:

    Are there any non-profit groups that could help your grandson with his medical needs? It might be worth the research. We get help for our grand child. I will try to post a site that could help you find them.

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  • 118. At 4:38pm on 07 Jul 2009, NoRashDecisions wrote:

    David_Cunard #85: '""The wonders" implies something not available elsewhere, and certainly not in the UK."

    Not necessarily. I think you're reading too much into it. I'm fairly certain that in this context, "wonders" means that Justin merely thinks that the technology that he will be using is "wonderful," which he is allowed to do. Not that that same technology isn't available anywhere else, much less the UK. For example, I think that British musicians such as Leona Lewis and Joss Stone are "wonderful." I am constantly amaised at the incredible maturity of their voices, and especially Leona Lewis's impressive falsetto. But does that mean that I think that a similar artest couldn't or hasn't been found in the Us or that they are way better than anyone the US could offer? Of course not!! I just greatly admire them that's all.

    "Had you been reading this blog long enough, you would know Justin's predilection for everything American rather than the more elusive properties of anything British. He even uses American slang to bolster his adopted Americanism."

    I must not be getting the same message that you're getting. And trust me, I'm the last person to think that we're the greatest thing since sliced bread!!! So he admires America. Is there something wrong with that? As long as he is fair and objective and doesn't fawn all over it (which I have seen no evidence of to date) I don't see what the big deal is about. He's not implying or hasn't said that just because he admires certain things about America that he holds Britian in any less esteem, he has merely stated his opinions on this country from an outsider's perspective (which I, for one, find very interesting indeed.) He has done an equal amount of praise, criticism, and advice dulling, and I think that that is how a reporter's blog should be run. And regarding his "American slang," I wouldn't worry too much about that if I were you. I don't think he's "trying to fit in," as it were, but merely that he has picked up on parts of the accent from being here so long. Everyone is susceptible to it. I once spent only one month in down town Baltimore, and when I came home I was talking just like them. So don't frett too much.

    "One of the less attractive features of life in the USA , albeit a minor irritation, is the fact that Americans tend to think that anything and everything modern and useful, regardless of discipline, originated in North America. Radio, television, radar &c., &c."

    Agreed, but watch the generalisations. I doubt that all Americans think that. And while it is a fact that by far not all modern advances have been invented in America and/or by Americans, a lot were, and a lot more were invented by foreigners who hatched their ideas in America with other foreigners and/or Americans.

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  • 119. At 4:47pm on 07 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    "60 American Grizzly, if you are to go on about coke heads I assumed you would include the one that made it to being president and yet managed to not make it to vietnam despite having flying skills appropriate to the situation."

    Well Clinton didn't make it to Vietnam, nor Quale, nor Bush, nor a lot of others, I am sure those that didn't inhale and some that did ended up in Vietnam. As far as Ivy league colleges go, some of their alumni, are in jail. Crooked, corrupt, or just crazy (Ted Kazenski) While an Ivy league college can offer so much, it is still the individual that makes the difference. Ivy league is just another form of Aristocratic class posturing. I have met intelligent people from all stations in life. So yeah my paint brush is pretty broad when I swing it to paint this picture. Osama Bin Laden has degrees also I believe. So what.
    Politics comes into play in Ivy League Colleges also, as I am sure it does in other world Universities where suitability has many points, gender,race, political correctness, so forth an so on. Many facts, history, and actions best relay the individual. Ross Perot lost his credibility by pulling out, when his family came under scrutiny by those who sort to embarass him by attacking his family. It worked. Dirty tricks, low attacks, mud slinging. I mean even Palin's daughter was a target. Same as Clintons. So save all the credentials, unless the dossier is full of all contacts, experiences, actions, follow the money, and everything else to gain the full picture of a person. Pretty much like an intelligence report from MI-6 or some other entity that is quite intensive, it is window dressing, because you can't see past the mask the politician is wearing to be all things to all people. Palin was probably burned out, who wouldn't.

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  • 120. At 4:50pm on 07 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    112. saintDominick

    It's stories like that that make me shiver. I never knew about this Cobra thing. Obviously there are others who have posted on this blog who aren't aware of what it means, either.

    I worked with someone with cerebral palsy a while ago and I just can't imagine how he would cope in those circumstances. Nor even me. (I'm disabled, btw, and that's not 'handicapped' as I remember someone writing around here: I'm 'legicapped' D-) )

    I suppose a fair bit of my care is 'preventive', because some of it is intended just to keep me going as long as possible and stop me falling foul of incidental problems or illnesses that might possibly crop up one day. Or not. I hate to think what my life would be like without it. Rather Hobbesian, I fear.

    I don't know what to say otherwise that doesn't sound false. (But you know from something I let slip elsewhere, and I rather regretted afterwards because I felt a bit stupid about doing it, that you will all have my best wishes and hopes, fwiw.)

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  • 121. At 5:12pm on 07 Jul 2009, NoRashDecisions wrote:

    SaintDominick #94: Glad to know you don't think that Kerry is a complete loss. Obviously he didn't try hard enough to overpower all of Bush's fear mongering, but I think to brand him "inept" as a result of that is a bit harsh. We all make mistakes.

    I'm sorry to hear about your son, and wish you both the best. But I think another huge reason why China's manufacturing industry does such a better job than ours that is often overlooked, is that aside from cheap prices and wages, China's authoritarian regime allows it to dictate to all of its companies how they should be run. There is a templit known as the three "nos" which the Chinese business comunity lives by. No lay offs, no late payments, and no salary cuts. With a phelosophy such as that, no wonder they ar doing so much better than us!! Such a thing would be impossible here unless we were willing to abandon the constitution.

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  • 122. At 5:17pm on 07 Jul 2009, NoRashDecisions wrote:

    Justin the best of wishes and luck to you in your new post in the UK. I've greatly enjoyed your blog, and think that it will be damn near impossible to find a replacement who will be as good as you.

    Come back soon. You will be missed.

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  • 123. At 5:18pm on 07 Jul 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    Ref 117, Aqua

    There are several charities that help in circumstances like this, but we should not be put in circumstances where we have to go around begging while our government spends $1T on a crusade in Iraq.

    When my grandson was born 3 months premature he spent almost 3 months in the hospital, and affiliate of Johns Hopkins and a wonderful facility that - literally - saved his life. I can't remember the exact amount of the bill, but it was around $130K. My son had recently changed jobs and his insurance did not cover the expenses. The Shriners and several family members, including myself, pitched in and paid the bill.

    I don't blame the doctors, hospitals, or even the pharmaceuticals. I blame the private insurance system we have that looks at each case on the basis of dollars and cents. Politicians often cite the horror of having to deal with a bureacrat, well, I much rather deal with a bureaucrat whose job is to ensure everybody gets the medical care they need than an insurance company flunky whose job is to limit cost to guarantee high profits.

    Unfortunately, the insurance industry is so powerful, and our ideological convictions are so ingrained in our psyche, that we rather sacrifice our health and the well being of our families than embrace a "socialist" system.

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  • 124. At 5:19pm on 07 Jul 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    Ref 120, Squirrellist

    Thanks!

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  • 125. At 5:20pm on 07 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    "Agreed, but watch the generalisations. I doubt that all Americans think that. And while it is a fact that by far not all modern advances have been invented in America and/or by Americans, a lot were, and a lot more were invented by foreigners who hatched their ideas in America with other foreigners and/or Americans." NoRashDecisions

    No its true most Americans are oblivious to many things. Yury Gargian,
    "On 12 April 1961, he became the first human in outer space and the first to orbit the Earth. He received medals from around the world for his feat." To read about Yury's family life would make Sotomayor's look like a breeze. Members of his family struggled/survived as slave laborers during WWII. His parents were viewedt as peaseants, even though were both intelligent (no Ivy league here). Yet Yury was blessed with an incredible journey as an individual. Igor Sikorsky flew the first multi-engined aircraft, designed flying boats, an the first successful American helicopter. Sir Frank Whittle pioneered the jet engine, his father was a mechanic. Appropriately his first jet plane was called the Pioneer in 1941. Robert Goddard launched the first rocket. Most of these men did these extraordinary things without much help, but by their own acheivements. No matter where they were born, nor the disadvantages of their lives. No but for their individual perseverence in a world into which they were born. Education helps, but it doesn't make the individual, nor the leader. Palin, Obama , Bush, are not even in their class.

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  • 126. At 5:22pm on 07 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    Nothing intentional! Looks like the software may be getting more resilient!

    Honest, Guv!

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  • 127. At 5:23pm on 07 Jul 2009, GeorgetteHardy wrote:

    It's more the habit of Hollywood to 'take over' the achievements of others and pretend that they were American (e.g. 'U-571') or take stories or characters from other nationalities and change them to being American (e.g. 'High Fidelity') that drives me mad. It does seem to be an American film industry habit as opposed to other nations' and the examples I give are just ones that popped into my head.
    I'm never sure if it is genuinely the case that a large proportion of Americans really couldn't cope with / enjoy something not American or whether Hollywood underestimates and patronises their own fellow citizens. Can any American poster enlighten me?

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  • 128. At 5:33pm on 07 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    122. At 5:17pm on 07 Jul 2009, NoRashDecisions wrote:

    "Justin the best of wishes and luck to you in your new post in the UK. I've greatly enjoyed your blog, and think that it will be damn near impossible to find a replacement who will be as good as you."

    It's Mark Mardell. Look to the right.

    (That's not a political characterisation, it's a navigational instruction. Just saying. Have to be careful sometimes.)

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  • 129. At 5:33pm on 07 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    GeorgetteHardy (#127), I wouldn't attach too much importance to what Hollywood does. They are selling entertainment, not history lessons.

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  • 130. At 5:37pm on 07 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    123. At 5:18pm on 07 Jul 2009, saintDominick

    They do seem to bring up 'dealing with bureaucrats' rather a lot. But over here, I don't deal with bureaucrats at all, my doctors, consultants and surgeons do.

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  • 131. At 5:38pm on 07 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    StDom 112,

    • "Yes, we do have medical facilities and capabilities that often exceed those of most countries, but our healthcare system is unfair and almost inhumane. A nation that calls itself a Christian society, and one that claims to be Nr. 1 and the envy of the world, can do better than that."

    Right On!

    I feel what you say, and Boy, am I glad to live where I do! Hang in there.

    Sciurus, Would one of these be of interest? I want a quad bike!

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  • 132. At 5:40pm on 07 Jul 2009, bere54 wrote:

    123, saintDom -

    I heard an interview on NPR a while back with someone who worked at one time for an insurance company. This person said that employees are paid bonuses based on how much they save the company by rejecting claims, legitimate or otherwise. If they can get away with not paying legitimate claims, they will. As has been said many times and is understood by any thinking person, insurance companies exist to reap profits, not to ensure their customers receive health care.

    I'm very sorry to hear of your son's and grandson's problems. Their not being alone in this type of situation can't be any comfort.

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  • 133. At 5:49pm on 07 Jul 2009, duhbuh wrote:

    Having followed Justin Webb's blog during the election campaign I know how much much he likes to repeat internet innuendo about Sarah Palin. He should love this from Al Sharpton's radio show:

    CALLER: He is truly the soundtrack of my life. I also have a theory about Sarah Palin as well and I'm going to put it out there on radio, hopefully someone can investigate. But, I think maybe she did something to Michael Jackson. Maybe there's a scandal there. Maybe she's stepping down because something's about to come out. I don't know, but I'm gonna just put it out there on your show so we'll see.

    AL SHARPTON: All right, thank you for your call, Ashley. That's interesting. I'll put it out, we'll see. I don't know.


    Perhaps Justin could make this his final big story before he leaves America. Then again, it's probably more suitable as a Greg Palast item on Newsnight.

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  • 134. At 5:55pm on 07 Jul 2009, bere54 wrote:

    Why has joepinapples been turned into a number?

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  • 135. At 5:55pm on 07 Jul 2009, GeorgetteHardy wrote:

    #129
    Yes, I can see that. However, as an industry, they want to sell their product. So, do they make the changes because the product really would not sell, or would sell less well, in America without such alterations? Or do the industry's members patronise their fellow citizens with unwarranted assumptions about their tastes?

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  • 136. At 6:06pm on 07 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    It was'nea me!

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  • 137. At 6:17pm on 07 Jul 2009, seanspa wrote:

    #134, someone kept claiming that joe was someone else, who had previously been banned. I wonder if there is a connection. Now that's a way of getting rid of dissent, isn't it.

    If I claim that a particular poster is really someone else, or is impersonating someone else, can I get them banned as well?

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  • 138. At 6:25pm on 07 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    GeorgetteHardy (#135) "... as an industry, they want to sell their product."

    Certainly they do, but it's not a monolithic industry. There are lots of filmmakers and producers making individual decisions about what kind of film to make. We see the aggragate result, which will naturally be dominated by the films which are the most "commercial," i.e. those which will make the most money. That doesn't exclude the occasional gem on the tail of the distribution.

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  • 139. At 6:32pm on 07 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    Q: "Why has joepinapples been turned into a number?"
    A: "The Mods have a spellchecker."

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  • 140. At 6:47pm on 07 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    134. At 5:55pm on 07 Jul 2009, bere54 wrote:

    Why has joepinapples been turned into a number?

    He (She?) is not a number, she (he) is a free man!

    I've wondered about people suddenly becoming numbers. Or vice-versa. It seems to have happened a few times. Pity there's no-one who ever explains. It's very annoying the mods only communicate with emails that are never specific. And there seems to be nowhere to ask where you have any chance of getting a sensible response.

    (Hint? Anybody out there? I'm not the first to raise this problem on this blog, and others must have done it on others. Maybe be if more of us ask, it'll seep into the general consciousness or whatever.)




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  • 141. At 6:49pm on 07 Jul 2009, misterbigbadwolf2u wrote:

    Will someone in Australia please check and see if Pauline Hanson is missing?

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  • 142. At 6:50pm on 07 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    131. At 5:38pm on 07 Jul 2009, Hesiodos:

    AmphibiousScirius says 'yes please'. How did you guess I like water? But I don't have a quad bike to swap.

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  • 143. At 7:00pm on 07 Jul 2009, seanspa wrote:

    #139, the follow up question, though, is what is his name?

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  • 144. At 7:01pm on 07 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    133. At 5:49pm on 07 Jul 2009, duhbuh wrote:

    Perhaps Justin could make this his final big story before he leaves America.

    He's already said he was speechless. You want to render him mute for life?

    (Shakes head in wonderment.)

    Mind you, if vast numbers of Democrats suddenly choke to death or have heart attacks over the next 3 years of exposure to the ex-governor (which, now I think of it is quite possible) I'll grant you then there might be something in it.

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  • 145. At 7:03pm on 07 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    138. At 6:25pm on 07 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill

    Doesn't explain the turkeys.

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  • 146. At 7:04pm on 07 Jul 2009, GeorgetteHardy wrote:

    #138
    Again, would agree with the points that you make. And my posts are not a general slamming of all Hollywood output. I like some films and I dislike others as is the case with any film output, taking into account standard of writing, acting, personal taste etc.
    However, I have noticed an assumption that in making a 'commercial' film (the type that will be a blockbuster)it needs to be 'Americanised' in some way. Admittedly, this is just an observation, not a data supported hypothesis, on my part! Why is this? Does this stem from genuine audience preference, do you, or others, think? If so, why? Or is it for some other reason?

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  • 147. At 7:14pm on 07 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    141. At 6:49pm on 07 Jul 2009, misterbigbadwolf2u wrote:

    Will someone in Australia please check and see if Pauline Hanson is missing?

    It's a big place. Try Argentina?

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  • 148. At 7:35pm on 07 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    Sciurus, That's OK! I occasionally get my Neighbour's to play with! I'll get my own when/if truly needed. I don't want one of those pavement (sidewalk) pushchairs, and I rarely go where they're appropriate. Not much use in the woods and high pastures, I reckon.

    As to a genuine King Island Kayak, I know a guy...

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  • 149. At 7:39pm on 07 Jul 2009, smilingAbulala wrote:

    Justin - forget the Quakers, the man's clearly a Unitarian and who would be surprised considering his Muslim Christian heritage and the fact his maternal grandfather (a major influence in his life) was a Unitarian for quite some time!

    With Unitarianism he can have Jesus as Prophet only (to please Muslims in the family) and on other days he can Jesus as divine, or part devine. It doesn't matter - as an old Unitarian dear I once met in hospital said to me when explaining her faith - "well - we just make it up as we go along!". Every politicians religious ideal.

    http://www.uua.org/

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  • 150. At 7:55pm on 07 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    GeorgetteHardy (#146), I don't know how to evaluate your assertion that stories in American films are "Americanized" to any great extent, for a couple of reasons. One is that I see very few films, and especially few "blockbusters." The other is that the foreign films which are shown here (many of which I have seen) are the best ones. I have no way of knowing what (for example) popular contemporary French films are like.

    Sometimes the Americanization is a quite deliberate attempt to make an American film out of a foreign idea. The best example of this is The Magnificent Seven, which was Kurosawa's Seven Samurai remade into an American western. Kurosawa himself remade King Lear into a Japanese equivalent, so the phenomenon is not exclusively American.

    When you write: "Does this stem from genuine audience preference, ..." you are making a sweeping generalization. There is not one audience, there are many. Within any one audience, there are many individual preferences. As an "audience" of one, I am satisfied merely to see a film I enjoy once in awhile, whether American or not. I don't worry about the overall trend.

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  • 151. At 8:01pm on 07 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#123 Saintdomonick

    I understand your point and I totally agree. However, I will add that I have worked for various non-profit groups off and on for most of my life. The work we did was never considered "charity" but rather an opportunity to be of service to someone who needed us at that moment. I always told this to anyone who felt uncertain or somehow diminished for receiving help:

    "When you are able, share and give to someone else in need."

    We all are in this world together.

    Ubuntu: What hurts you, hurts me, hurts everyone and this world we share.
    What helps you, helps me, helps everyone and this world we share.

    Ubuntu and healing to you and your family.

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  • 152. At 8:07pm on 07 Jul 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    Ref 130, Squirrellist

    "They do seem to bring up 'dealing with bureaucrats' rather a lot. But over here, I don't deal with bureaucrats at all, my doctors, consultants and surgeons do."

    My only surviving sister, a few cousins, and several in-laws live in Spain where they all have access to the much maligned socialist medicine. When one of my sisters-in-law had open heart surgery a couple of years ago she spent several days in a private room in a hospital in Tenerife, it actually had a small adjacent room where a relative could spend the night if they wished. Obviously, the room had TV, telephone, and the hospital was very modern. There was no pressure put on her to leave prematurely because of cost issues, she had excellent doctors, and a nurse actually went to her house every day for a few weeks to check up on her.

    All the rhetoric about bureaucrats, long lines, surgery refusals, and other such things are excuses and distortions used to scare the public. Unfortunately, many people take it as gospel.

    Interestingly, our senators, congressmen, and civil servants have healthcaare coverage that is not too dissimilar from what Western Europe and most industrialized nations have.

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  • 153. At 8:17pm on 07 Jul 2009, watermanaquarius wrote:

    GeorgetteHardy # 146,
    Do block buster films have to be Americanised?
    You could almost ask the same question here. Do all threads have to end up as an Israeli-ised discussion?.
    Do not know where you are from having just joined the thread {US or Europe] but be thankful that the Tom Hanks of this world despite giving an horrendous english accent when necessary, keep their place in the actors union to come back and make another good one or a turkey in the future.
    Not so here. Being a blogger here is dangerous for your health.

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  • 154. At 8:27pm on 07 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    Gary,

    • "Kurosawa himself remade King Lear into a Japanese equivalent,"
    Actually, it was "the Scottish Play". He called it "Throne of Blood" (in Japanese, of course)

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  • 155. At 8:40pm on 07 Jul 2009, GeorgetteHardy wrote:

    #150
    Well, I'm sorry for being 'sweeping'! Not meaning to be horrid nor generalising about all Americans. But some studios or producers do seem to feel that Americanisation makes a film more commercial e.g. change the story of 'U-571' from British to American. This is as opposed to having another version of an already acknowledged story as the examples in your post. I only wondered, just from the personal experience of American bloggers (since I have never lived in the US), whether their decision to do so is justified by audience expectation. It slightly astounds me that they feel an American audience will only enjoy that story, for example, if they see American protagonists. All I wondered was if this was the case for many American citizens of your (and others') acquaintance or do producers like this underestimate the American public?
    Never mind though. Don't want to flog a dead horse! It was just curiosity because, as I said, I can't speak about the US from personal experience. Which is why I find this blog interesting...

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  • 156. At 8:45pm on 07 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    Hesiodos (#154), Kurosawa's Throne of Blood is Macbeth, Ran is King Lear.

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  • 157. At 8:52pm on 07 Jul 2009, bere54 wrote:

    140, squirrelist -

    I for one find it really creepy when people on this blog are suddenly turned into numbers. There ought to be some explanation given for it. It seems to be happening quite often lately. How do we know it won't suddenly strike any one of us?

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  • 158. At 9:08pm on 07 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    GeorgetteHardy "But some studios or producers do seem to feel that Americanisation makes a film more commercial e.g. change the story of 'U-571' from British to American."

    Sure they do, but is this true to any greater degree than in other countries? One would have to see a lot of films in more than one country (not imported films, which are not representative) in order to have a valid sample. Are you saying that you have never observed this phenomenon in your own domestically made films?

    I've never noticed the phenomenon, myself. In the case you cite, it seems to me that the film was a work of fiction based on an idea taken from a British incident, rather than an attempt to rewrite British history into American. Filmmakers (and other artists) appropriate the ideas of others all the time. It's much harder to invent an original idea than to steal one.

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  • 159. At 9:10pm on 07 Jul 2009, bere54 wrote:

    155, GeorgetteHardy -

    The Harry Potter books, at least the first few, were "Americanized" when published here because the publishers felt American children would be put off by the British terms, despite the fact that it was a British story told by a British writer, taking place in Britain. The later books are less Americanized, I think because Rowling's fame and success gave her more control. The teenage characters snog rather than kiss.

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  • 160. At 9:11pm on 07 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    American and lately the whole world seems lost in entertainment,sports, and trash. Just an extract below, to show what gets coverage.. Talk about wreakage.
    ""Mr. Jackson received days of wall-to-wall coverage in the media," Martha Gillis wrote to the Washington Post. "Where was the coverage of my nephew or the other soldiers who died that week?"

    "I can watch the news many nights and there's no mention of what's going on in Afghanistan or Iraq and there's boys dying over there," Bradshaw told FOXNews.com. "Oh God, I can't talk."

    "The deaths of seven U.S. soldiers killed in Afghanistan on Monday received just 1/20th of the network television news coverage devoted to Jackson, according to an analysis by the Media Research Center, a Virginia-based news analysis organization.

    The seven deaths garnered less than one minute of coverage on ABC, CBS and NBC evening newscasts combined, including just 13 seconds on CBS, compared to more than 13 minutes of Jackson-related news. That's a 60-to-1 disparity, the analysis found."

    What watchdogs to the 1st amendment, making the US a better place. Forgive me but I'm sick as a dog over this. Reflects what people really value in this twisted society.






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  • 161. At 9:16pm on 07 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    Hush! You mustn't name the Scottish play! Fie!

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  • 162. At 9:22pm on 07 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#155 Georgettehardy

    Some people here like to 'sweep and generalize' but you do not seem to be one of those.

    Many American films are like most other things made in America,they are produced for profit. Producers gamble on the lowest common denominator producing their dollars to buy said product, whether worth the money or not. This is merely my own opinion and I will add that I am not indicative of the 'average' American.

    However, I would hope you maintain dialogue here because I, for one, welcome your thoughts, questions and suggestions.

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  • 163. At 9:37pm on 07 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    "Why has joepinapples been turned into a number?"

    "they've given you a number, and taken way your name
    Secret Agent Man, Secret Agent Man."

    That was lyrics from the theme song for the TV show for those of you too young to have seen it. Maybe Joepinapple has become a secret agent.

    Or just maybe....he's been incarcerated. OH NO JOE, say it isn't so!

    Prisoner Number U14058382, this court has found you guilty of crimes against the English language including repeated flagrant misspelling and illegable handwriting. The court hereby sentences you to 10 years in a Federal Pinitentiary where it is hoped you will spend your time profitably improving yourself by learning to use spellcheck and improving your pinmanship.

    "They've given you a number, and taken way your name."

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  • 164. At 9:44pm on 07 Jul 2009, GeorgetteHardy wrote:

    Thanks, aquarizonagal. That is sweet of you! I really appreciate that as, apart from time concerns (reading through all the posts, especially when on Israel, can take long enough!), one of the main reasons I haven't posted much is that I do fear getting dragged into fights and bitterness. I am not a fragile flower who can't be disagreed with, I hasten to add. However, sometimes I notice really bitter wranglings emerging here out of nothing! Sometimes it can be just misunderstandings. Othertimes, it seems to be just nastiness. I prefer civility and debate combined.

    Anyway, thanks.

    And, thanks, Gary, for your views. I would say that I have tended to notice it in American cultural products and not so much in other nations' but it may just be my impression. Thanks again for taking the time to respond.

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  • 165. At 9:46pm on 07 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    The wreakage of politics. Poor Sarah Palin look what she misses..
    "A new Wall Street Journal report shows hundreds of legislators spent $13 million on overseas travel in 2008. That's up 50 percent from two years ago.
    So while you and your family cut back this summer, it might comfort you to know that Nancy Pelosi and the Congressional crowd are enjoying their barbecues (err, really tough foreign policy discussions) in the Virgin Islands.

    The Journal reports that lawmakers must buy tickets for spouses if they take a commercial flight. Conveniently, they can side-step this nasty, unfair rule by taking a government plane, where spouses can fly for free.

    Sen. Daniel Inouye (D-Hawaii), other lawmakers and their wives jetted off on a four-day trip to France for the Paris Air Show just a few weeks ago. They took an Air Force Boeing 737, which costs $5,700 an hour to fly. Considering a flight from Washington to Paris is seven hours and 30 minutes, that's 15 hours round-trip. Multiply that out and that's $85,500! That sucking noise you hear is your tax money going down the drain.

    Of course, the lawmakers needed to sleep somewhere, preferably someplace with comfortable pillows. They chose the Intercontinental Paris, which has rooms starting at $460 a night. House Speaker Pelosi, D-Calif., is no stranger to jetting around privately, either. This is the same woman who insisted she get her own Air Force plane to fly back and forth between Washington and San Francisco.

    In February, she and eight others planned a trip. They had good intentions, I'm sure. They wanted to visit U.S. troops in Afghanistan. But somewhere along the way, they were sidetracked by the appeal of Italy. They ended up staying eight days, spending nearly $58,000 on hotels and meals, the Journal reports.

    And then, there's this. Rep. Brian Baird, D-Wash., four other lawmakers and their spouses took a $22,000 trip to the Galapagos Islands. They wanted to learn about global warming, Baird said.

    Instead, the lawmakers spent a day touring a breeding center for giant tortoise and land iguanas. The next day, they toured a national park while their wives could choose between hiking, swimming and shopping. Then, everybody climbed aboard a boat to look for white-tip sharks and visit sea lions.
    Because, if one thing's for sure, you can't think about climate change unless you're looking at sea lions. You just can't." Fox News Channel University extract.

    Gee no wonder everyone wants to be in government, Maybe Palin will get that if she plays her cards right. And my loveable English cousins thought it was bad to pay for dredging the moat. Maybe when healthcare starts up they will have to fly and investigate more options in Bermuda, France, Japan, or where these difficult tasks may take them.

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  • 166. At 9:48pm on 07 Jul 2009, GeorgetteHardy wrote:

    Bere54, that was interesting about the Harry Potter books. I wonder if anyone in publishing (in different countries) knows if that happens a lot?

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  • 167. At 10:02pm on 07 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    161. At 9:16pm on 07 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    Hush! You mustn't name the Scottish play! Fie!

    That's torn it. The curse hath come upon us. The calamities that result include "riots, falling scenery, illness and even the death of a lead actor" according to the RSC. I nearly got run through by a flying sword, once, having forgotten (I was young and new to it, and only an ASM) and I wasn't even on stage at the time. Didn't even have time to run for the exit.

    Gary, to save us all, you have to go outside, turn around three times (widdershins) spit, and then knock and ask permission to come back in again. Very likely as only a number.

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  • 168. At 10:04pm on 07 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    163: In that case, it's six months hard labour for "illegable" then.

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  • 169. At 10:12pm on 07 Jul 2009, hms_shannon wrote:

    Marcus
    a/ how foolish I was to think you had mellowed.
    b/You still do not like the British.
    c/you do not have a new girl friend.

    so its d/ You must be Happy feeling Grumpy...

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  • 170. At 10:16pm on 07 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#163 MarcusareliusII

    How typically nasty! Your posts never disappoint in lacking that quality.

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  • 171. At 10:18pm on 07 Jul 2009, David Cunard wrote:

    #149. smilingAbulala wrote: "an old Unitarian dear I once met in hospital said to me when explaining her faith - "well - we just make it up as we go along!".

    Just as two or three posters do here . . .

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  • 172. At 10:21pm on 07 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#164 Georgettehardy

    My advice is to skip posts on the subject you mentioned. That poor horse has been flogged to death by some here and is fit only for dog food!

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  • 173. At 10:27pm on 07 Jul 2009, David Cunard wrote:

    #161. Hesiodos: "Hush! You mustn't name the Scottish play! Fie!"

    I don't think it applies to anything written, only spoken, and even then, mostly in the theatre. I suppose there may be film and television performers who follow the superstition, but not the average Joe or Joline.

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  • 174. At 10:33pm on 07 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    squirrel, an occasional infraction is one thing but that pineapple did it every single time he posted. I think he just did it to rub everyone's nose in it. You can only get away with things like that for so long.

    The great thing about having Hollywood in America is that they can always decide who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. Then the story can always have a happy ending....from my point of view. Of course if you are from elsewhere...you'd just better hope they don't make too many movies about your country. Take the movie Patton. How they painted Montgommery as a horse's ass. Was it true? Who knows but if you watch the movie enough times, it becomes true. Even BBC is no match for Hollywood. How can you compare some reporter spouting off on a short wave radio to Rambo on the big screen, bigger than life? Poor Germany. Every movie and TV show turned Germans into mindless robots. Hogan's Heroes was an extreme stereotype but there were so many others.

    Obama fits Hollywood's script. When the story is over, they'll be making tons of movies about him. Win, lose, or draw, he'll be the hero because that's the way Hollywood wants it. (Europeans never imagined what they bargained for when they cheered him on. Let's see how much they like him when they finally roll the closing credits :-)

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  • 175. At 10:47pm on 07 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#171 Davidcunard

    I am also a very old Unitarian. We really do not "make it up as we go." We just do not profess to be "sure." We leave that to others.

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  • 176. At 10:51pm on 07 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#174 MarcusareliusII

    Is it not interesting how some are allowed to "get away with things for so long" while others are like that bunny that just keeps going and going and going?

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  • 177. At 10:54pm on 07 Jul 2009, watermanaquarius wrote:

    Hyacinth # 174
    Can you run that by me one more time.
    The BBC is no match for Hollywood yet you just love "Keeping up Appearances". Probably have them all on DVD, Blue Ray.
    Seems to me you are becoming less of a basket case and more of a bucket case with every remark you make.
    Who is kidding who Marcus.

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  • 178. At 10:54pm on 07 Jul 2009, seanspa wrote:

    "You can only get away with things like that for so long."

    Let's hope so.

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  • 179. At 11:20pm on 07 Jul 2009, watermanaquarius wrote:

    A friendly joust with Marcus and he does not make his usual witty reply, to tie me up in knots?
    He treats squirrelist with politeness too # 174
    Earlier almost makes rhyming prose.
    Maybe he does not know who Hyacinth is? Strange

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  • 180. At 11:24pm on 07 Jul 2009, frayedcat wrote:

    Quakers are lovely, and Palin gives me the heebie-jeebies - she is a very angry person, alway pecking a fight

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  • 181. At 11:43pm on 07 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    173.David_Cunard:"I don't think it applies to anything written, only spoken"

    Well maybe, but this is more like conversation isn't it? (Except when it's confrontation, but forget that.) Anyway, can you blame me for not taking any chances? A day later a lighting gantry collapsed with me on it. Good job i bounced.

    He seems to have gone. Just hope he's doing his turn outside, that's all.

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  • 182. At 11:47pm on 07 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    169. At 10:12pm on 07 Jul 2009, ukwales

    Nice to hear from you again. Poetry please?

    (The Valhallagrams stopped, which was a shame, I thought.)

    It's end of term, after all.

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  • 183. At 11:52pm on 07 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#179 Watermanaquarius

    Perhaps it is a case of MPD, with various personalities unaware of the activities of each other?

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  • 184. At 00:00am on 08 Jul 2009, seanspa wrote:

    #183, you mesn the left brain cell not knowing what the right brain cell knows?

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  • 185. At 00:11am on 08 Jul 2009, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #160

    The Jackson coverage was far too much.

    It took 10 minutes of the nightly news cast.

    some of the more outrageous points.

    sharpton saying theere should be a national day of morning
    If you live in California how do you feel about your tax dollars going to police presence for the funeral?

    If you live in LA how do you feel about about downtown being cordoned off?

    Can the news get back to amjor foriegn and economic issues?

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  • 186. At 00:41am on 08 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    MagicKirin (#185), I'm tired of the constant MJ news, also, but I don't think anyone should be concerned about police for traffic control for a funeral. A person dies -- cut him some slack, even if you didn't like him.

    And I think we should have "morning" every day, but "mourning" is optional.

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  • 187. At 00:49am on 08 Jul 2009, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #186

    Tax payers should not have to pay for the police. the Jackson family should have.

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  • 188. At 00:52am on 08 Jul 2009, calrjohns wrote:

    Hi ,
    Palin seems to be less of a train wreck and more of a tanker run aground.
    What a mess.

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  • 189. At 00:57am on 08 Jul 2009, calrjohns wrote:

    187 Why should the family pay for all the people that follow MJ?
    That makes no sense. It is a simple issue of crowd control and traffic control. Would you rather the police did nothing and waited for people to get in an accident? More importantly will you pay the costs of the legal proceedings and fines if some accident occurred and the state got sued for not providing suitable crowd control.

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  • 190. At 01:09am on 08 Jul 2009, Interestedforeigner wrote:

    Dear Justin:

    Thank you so much. Best wishes for the future.

    Yours,

    I.F.

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  • 191. At 01:17am on 08 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    Aqualass,

    • "like that bunny that just keeps going and going and going?"
    The one powering handheld electrical devices?

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  • 192. At 01:19am on 08 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    DC,

    • "I don't think it applies to anything written,"
    Oh.

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  • 193. At 01:50am on 08 Jul 2009, David Cunard wrote:

    #185. MagicKirin: "If you live in California how do you feel about your tax dollars going to police presence for the funeral?"

    Not good! However, I have heard it reported that the large numbers of visitors brought more than $5 million into LA, so that attenuates the cost. The same concerns were raised in connection with the Lakers' parade, the police presence for which was around $1 million. Apparently the entire cost for that was not born by the LAPD and, given the vast sums which (reportedly) the Jackson Estate will receive, perhaps it or AEG will chip in.

    The only winner in all of this is Forest Lawn, which, no doubt, tens of thousands of fans will visit in times to come. Perhaps they should have just gone the whole hog and put his body on permanent display like Stalin and Lenin before him. Modern embalming techniques should have been able to preserve him indefinitely, especailly since he was given to using cosmetics. Snow White had her crystal casket, so why not MJ? And please don't comment that "it would not be dignified" since that quality seems to have been missing from a large part of his life.

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  • 194. At 04:26am on 08 Jul 2009, KScurmudgeon wrote:

    I was as offended as the next person by all the slavish attention given to the Michael Jackson circus, but during the day today I couldn't avoid hearing part of the program -
    The accusation of Michael Jacksons secret abuse was like an undertow beneath all the tributes. There was a special tenderness to those tributes that acknowledged that pathos that provided a way for his friends, his family, and for society to give acceptance and love to those who do unforgivable and repugnant things, who live strange lives.

    His transition from a cute little black boy into a white caricature was lionized in the tributes as if it was part of his professional achievement in shattering the pop music color barrier, raising the bar for all pop media. In a way he was a precursor to Barak Obamas achievement in politics, blurring and erasing parts of the color barrier and by his physical transitions forcing us to examine and change the meaning of race.

    Jackson used his professional genius to transform himself into a new archetype he made himself into a near cartoon no, into a computer generated 3D animation of the ideal pop star of the late 20th century. The transformation became part of his physical being and maybe even of his concept of himself, projecting not Dr. Frankensteins monster so much as the Ten Million Dollar Man - a cyborg transitioning into the future.

    Maybe all this tragic wierdness can explain a part of his mass appeal. Maybe it also speaks in brilliant colors to the trouble public people have maintaining private selves, people like governors Sanford and Palin. Who are they, really? Does it matter and do we really want to know? Should the real Sarah Palin stand up, or would it be better if she just sat down?

    Form or function, or substance?

    KScurmudgeon

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  • 195. At 05:14am on 08 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    I thinnk Sara Palin should have waited to announce her resignation at Michael Jackson's funeral. It would have made both more interesting to me.

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  • 196. At 06:00am on 08 Jul 2009, David Cunard wrote:

    #189. calrjohns: "187 Why should the family pay for all the people that follow MJ?"

    Because he was a private citizen; his family could have opted for a quiet, family funeral, but they chose something far, far grander, almost the excesses shown when a Pope dies. As a Los Angeles taxpayer I think there are far better things on which to spend public monies. Repairing potholes might be a start.

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  • 197. At 07:54am on 08 Jul 2009, andyinscotland wrote:

    Can you post details of the device you son has .... we have an old-style pump for our son ..

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  • 198. At 09:29am on 08 Jul 2009, Young-Mr-Grace wrote:

    Interesting to see MA2 refer to Hogans Heroes in post 174 as MA2 has often reminded me of the character Colonel Klink.

    You're all doing very well !!!

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  • 199. At 12:33pm on 08 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    Interesting to note that the more things get worse everywhere in the world, the more people here discuss Michael Jackson. Perhaps the Messiah Obama will elevate him, with the blessing of his 1st visitor to the White House Al Sharpton to Sainthood. Declaring a national holiday, my suggestion is it be like Halloween. I mean with lives being lost daily in Afghanistan, spending money for this media fest, by a bankrupt state. I only have one question, will the State of California, be issuing script IOU's to the police? I mean or is that what the (Just when you thought it was safe to enter the water, dun, dun, dun, STIMULUS II) next stimulus package is for to continue to bail out irresponsible state budgets. Where are the jobs created from the first??? The only ones working in my heavy Democratic State are, are you ready, yes, the STATE WORKERS, come on down see what you've won with the stimulus package.
    Sarah Palin's train wreak is a choo, choo. Compared to Obama's 2Trillion locomotive careening down the tracks towards a mountain of debt for future generations. Don't worry Congress will really help to increase the speed, and keep it on track..............Whoo, whooo.

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  • 200. At 12:37pm on 08 Jul 2009, arclightt wrote:

    Justin: I have no idea what your future holds, but I will ask God's blessings for you and your family. I'm sorry your son is dealing with diabetes, but I hope he comes to understand that there is purpose in everything, even suffering. I've had to put up with a condition for about 38 years, and have wondered often (a) why it came about and (b) if it would ever end short of death. I don't have good answers to either question, but I'm confident that God is fully aware of it all.

    @112 (StD): A good friend of mine from years ago had cerebral palsy. He was smart as he could be, but limited by his body. Another case of either going mad asking WHY, or finding peace in acceptance, I guess; I'm very sorry you have to carry that burden. In that time the state (TN) had rehab services that Matt could and did take advantage of, and eventually he was able to find a job and do useful tech work for one of the local hospitals in Knoxville. I don't know what's available today, but if you haven't already worn the avenue to your Congressperson out, perhaps you could seek some help from the staff on identifying other grant or loan programs to help out. I'm recommending the same to my sister, whose son is autistic. If the help is available, I'm happy for my tax dollars to help your son and my nephew. Better that than wasting time promoting leftist or rightist ideology, thank you, or plowing it into earmarks designed to shovel money into the hands of contributors.

    Hmmm...there's a thought. If Congressman X gets an earmark for Contributor Y, and Contributor Y then contributes to Congressman X's campaign, aren't we already doing a corrupt form of public campaign financing??? Sigh.

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  • 201. At 12:42pm on 08 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    ""they've given you a number, and taken way your name
    Secret Agent Man, Secret Agent Man." Marcus A II
    I have the 45rpm record, by Johnny Rivers, I believe. One of my old favorite shows, along with the Prisoner, and the Avengers. An yes, I know what an 8 track is. "I am not a number, I am a free man." 13 episodes loved it.
    Now we all only have one number, the deficit.

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  • 202. At 12:49pm on 08 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    199. At 12:33pm on 08 Jul 2009, AmericanGrizzly wrote:
    The only ones working in my heavy Democratic State are, are you ready, yes, the STATE WORKERS, come on down see what you've won with the stimulus package."

    State workers do not have families? They are not human beings? They are not citizens?

    Jobs are jobs to those that have them.

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  • 203. At 2:15pm on 08 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Young Mr Graceless;

    I think of you as Mrs. Slocombe...and I am unanimous in this!

    Simple Simon, you obviously haven't dealt with state employees or you wouldn't ask such rediculous questions. Try the California or New York Department of Motor Vehicles. NJ's was no better until it was outsourced to a private company where people could actually lose their job if they didn't perform well.

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  • 204. At 2:37pm on 08 Jul 2009, alanskillcole wrote:

    off topic, but interesting...Kasparov interview
    "Q: Aside from Obamas tone, what about specific positions or policy proposals?

    GK: It looks like Putin and his gang have finally met someone who wont play their little game of give and take. Obamas tough and he didnt back away from the most difficult issues. Sovereignty of Russias neighbors, mentioning Georgia and Ukraine in particular. He refused to link missile defense to Iran or anything else.

    In fact, I dont see anything that Obama gave up, which likely came as a surprise to Putin, who expected the new American president to be eager to make deals to have a success to report back home. Obama likely surprised some Republicans in the US as well. Before he started his trip, several conservative GOP members wrote an open letter to Obama with recommendations. Not linking missile defense to nuclear arms reduction, defending the rights of Ukraine and Georgia, and meeting with the opposition. From what I can tell, Obama followed each one.

    Obama seems like a man who doesnt try to solve problems that dont have solutions. He saves his energy and political capital on realistic goals. If theres a big obstacle he simply takes it off the table and deals with what can be done. Perhaps more importantly he is honest about saying that is what hes doing. For example, instead of making a lot of meaningless statements about Iran, where Putins interests are in direct opposition, Obama moves on to areas where progress can be made. I have to admit I found this practical approach attractive in the end."
    http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=5562

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  • 205. At 4:33pm on 08 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    203. At 2:15pm on 08 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    Young Mr Graceless;

    I think of you as Mrs. Slocombe...and I am unanimous in this!

    Simple Simon, you obviously haven't dealt with state employees or you wouldn't ask such rediculous questions. Try the California or New York Department of Motor Vehicles. NJ's was no better until it was outsourced to a private company where people could actually lose their job if they didn't perform well."

    Wow that's an example.

    You could put the US armed forces in there as well.

    far better the US pays the Russians to do the job

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  • 206. At 4:41pm on 08 Jul 2009, David Cunard wrote:

    #199. AmericanGrizzly: I only have one question, will the State of California, be issuing script IOU's to the police?"

    The state neither employs nor pays members of the LAPD, the funds come from the city coffers. As an American, you should know it, that's if (despite your pseudonym) you are an American.

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  • 207. At 4:46pm on 08 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    "State workers do not have families? They are not human beings? They are not citizens?

    Jobs are jobs to those that have them." Simon21

    The stimulus package was to grow the economy, not the government. Most states are abusing it to fill budget gaps. Not the intent. Yes, state workers have families, so do the more than ten percent unemployed that don't get all their perks from the state, and they really have to work. Where the state finds state workers a position in the state when theirs are eliminated. You sound like a communist with the way the state comes first.......

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  • 208. At 4:51pm on 08 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    "yeah Georgia needs to oppress its other ethnic groups with violence, the EU crawled away when they saw what the Georgians had done to keep their sovereignty even if it mean cleanesing the non-Georgians out." Nice policy of the US. Support our Georgian dictator.
    Obama and Biden do.

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  • 209. At 5:00pm on 08 Jul 2009, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    # 199 AmericanGrizzly wrote:

    "Perhaps the Messiah Obama will elevate him, with the blessing of his 1st visitor to the White House Al Sharpton to Sainthood"

    As I recall you've made this claim - that Al Sharpton was Obama's first visitor in the White House - before.

    Maybe it's true, but if so I am rather surprised, as I would have assumed it would have been given more publicity. Also, as far as I know, Obama tended to keep his distance from old-style African American leaders such as Sharpton and Jesse Jackson [Senior], at least when he was campaigning. And when I did a Google search, I came up with no evidence.

    So if you have evidence, and preferably a link to it, I'd be very interested in hearing about it.

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  • 210. At 5:02pm on 08 Jul 2009, U14063019 wrote:

    204 alanskillcole "Obama seems like a man who doesnt try to solve problems that dont have solutions. He saves his energy and political capital on realistic goals. If theres a big obstacle he simply takes it off the table and deals with what can be done"

    This has been the way he seems to work.It is sometimes unfortunate that he cannot push certain issues but at the same time it shows he is there to do the job not just enjoy the power.

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  • 211. At 5:14pm on 08 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 212. At 5:16pm on 08 Jul 2009, arclightt wrote:

    @206 (DC) David, it's not quite that simple. Unfortunately, if you look in the budget structure of most localities and most states, you will find that (a) cities and counties get funds from local taxation and from the state and Fed governments, and (b) states get funds from both state taxation and from the Feds.

    AG's question may not seem reasonable on the surface, but to the extent that LAPD's operating funds (or the operating funds for any city or county service in CA) are provided out of state resources, it's actually a useful question.

    It makes me wonder just how sustainable our entire budget structure would be if we really were paying our bills and dealing with our debt. I'm not sure we wouldn't have to drive taxation to economy-killing levels just to cover what we already think we need to spend, not counting all the "new" things that folks seem to think they can't live without. The Pew Research Center and the Heritage Foundation tried to make this point jointly to the Congress a number of years ago, but they were ignored.

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  • 213. At 5:26pm on 08 Jul 2009, U14063019 wrote:

    205 Simon 21
    what do you mean by" I think of you as Mrs. Slocombe...and I am unanimous in this! "
    I can't see how one could be more than sure of this unaimous seems to imply many people. Sorry, I'm picking up at the end here and just thought I'd ask because the post is a bit confusing.

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  • 214. At 5:31pm on 08 Jul 2009, dianaatkin wrote:

    Sarah Palin is indeed a republican train wreck and thank god for it. Sshe excellently highlighted the difference between hard-working intelligent democrats with experience to those with the traditional vote grabbing stream of unconsciousness designed to tap into hard core evangelical republican mentality. Her screechy voice was a joy to hear during the election process along with McCain's smirkyness during the split screen televised debates with Obama. I cannot imagine what she intends to do now to earn for her family, perhaps the lecture circuit will now have to bear her screechy rough verbal incontinence and highly limited received wisdom; this from a governor who thought Africa was a country not a continent with high office ambitions (GW Bush all over). If Obama could have his way I suspect he'd prefer to be a secular politician while being president, but in the US one must have a 'faith' to meet the approval of voters. Quakerism may be helpful, the silent meetings would allow him to gather his thoughts without listening to half-baked unintelligent views on God and Jesus who is sold in the US more as a divine comet sent from above by God, rather than a man trying to do a job for the region in those days - if he existed at all - because a few books in the bible says so little, and there are other myths in the world incredibly similar, and prior to his time, to that of Jesus. The absolute hypocrisy of Jesus-ism in US politics is highly off-putting. During GW Bush's election campaign, there he was being sat down in front of a huge mural/picture of Jesus with Jesus' hand and finger pointing right at Bush's shoulder (there is film footage of this) - all designed to appeal to 'Jesus-is-me's' in the US. Then when he gets to office he has the severed head of a supposed terrorist (turned out to be the wrong man) delivered to his office as he was tap-dancing in excitement at metaphorically being able to put it on his mantlepiece. So it may be an idea for US presidents to respect the hypocrisy between politics and religion and go secular or non-demoninational while in office - as HM the Queen is and Prince Charles will be: Defender of Faith.

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  • 215. At 5:41pm on 08 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    alansillycone;

    They say a good lawyer never asks a question he doesn't already know the answer to in advance. I'd say Obama is a pretty good lawyer, wouldn't you? So when he said to Ahmadinejad, "I'm holding out my open hand, do you want to talk about things of concern to both of us including nuclear weapons?" don't you think he knew Ahmadinejad would slam his fist on the table in response? As will North Korea. As will the Russians. As will everyone else. Does this make him look weak? In their eyes probably yes and he will go through all of them before he does anything so they don't have time to change their answers. The advantage to him is that it will be complete justification for doing exactly what George Bush did. He didn't have to ask the Taleban. The whole world knew what the answer would be to that so it would have been pointless. When the answers come back, well see if his trigger finger is any less itchy than President Bush's was. He may not have absolute power but with the US military in his holster, he's got the closest thing to it on this earth. I think the CIA will be able to get his friends in Congress whipped up into a fear frenzy over Iran and North Korea just the way they did over Iraq. The current bunch of pols are no different under their party labels than the ones in 2003.

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  • 216. At 5:43pm on 08 Jul 2009, U14063019 wrote:

    diannaatkin
    I love your post. But
    Was it not Prince Charles that wished to be "defender of faith" or "all faith" while the queen is still the defender of the Anglican Church.

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  • 217. At 5:55pm on 08 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    Diana,

    How about a few paragraph breaks, please.

    Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace

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  • 218. At 5:58pm on 08 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    "As I recall you've made this claim - that Al Sharpton was Obama's first visitor in the White House - before." Joe In Dublin

    Well it has been broadcast over the radio here in the US. So you will have to review it there. But I was able to locate a few quotes from Obama. Try Al Sharptons National Action Network. Try Politico. Both are on the web. Don't you people read whats going on? I read,watch, and listen to all perspectives, but doesn't mean I agree with them. So get out there an be an information sponge. I could care less if you agree with me or not. Everyone has an opinion.

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  • 219. At 6:02pm on 08 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    "Well you sound like an idiot. State employees lose jobs all the time" Simon21
    Your words fit you well Simon21, attack the messenger, because you don't have a brain. They teach you that in school, or have you alway been this dim.

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  • 220. At 6:06pm on 08 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    So how long have you worked for the State Simon21, are you a new hire? Who gave you the job, a party member, or a relative? Or did you qualify?

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  • 221. At 6:12pm on 08 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    Very well put Post #215 At 5:41pm on 08 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII
    Good Point.

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  • 222. At 6:14pm on 08 Jul 2009, U14063019 wrote:

    215 Calling people "silly" is not really a very good way of starting a discussion.I am surprised the moderators think it acceptable.

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  • 223. At 6:18pm on 08 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    "If Obama could have his way I suspect he'd prefer to be a secular politician while being president, but in the US one must have a 'faith' to meet the approval of voters. Quakerism may be helpful, the silent meetings would allow him to gather his thoughts without listening to half-baked unintelligent views on God and Jesus who is sold in the US more as a divine comet sent from above by God, rather than a man trying to do a job for the region in those days - if he existed at all" dianaatkin
    So Obama by your reasoning is either a hypocrite or a liar. I mean if Obama doesn't believe in God. Obama must be a true politician, so which is it a liar or hypocrite? Thank you for clearing that up. Unbelievable.

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  • 224. At 6:40pm on 08 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    George Washington was a Secular President.

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  • 225. At 6:41pm on 08 Jul 2009, U14063019 wrote:

    223 Do you make up others posts . Diannaatkins said nothing of the sort. you did.
    As for Marcus Aurelious' post that you complimented. It is harldy very well put and misses the point altogeather.
    Yes Obama could behave as Geroge did and start more wars, but that would hardly make his chances of reelection very good would it.
    All those that voted for him would say "no more" those that didn't vote for him were more often than not a little racist and so they will not vote for him anyway.
    Why is there an assumption that if one gets to some truth a war must be started.
    He is giving them all the rope they want,but I suspect he will follow through with the rest of the phrase and let them hang themselves. If the US were to do it that would be the end of any goodwill anywhere in the world and it is possible that seeing as the US is in such a bad state at the moment that the rest of the world will pull back even more leaving it self isolated .

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  • 226. At 6:41pm on 08 Jul 2009, bere54 wrote:

    223 -

    Neither a liar nor a hypocrite, but rather a diplomat.

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  • 227. At 6:43pm on 08 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    So were almost all of the early Presidents.

    Grizz,

    • "Unbelievable."
    Your opacity?

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  • 228. At 6:45pm on 08 Jul 2009, alphamiguel wrote:

    daisy.
    Good point,but then Marcus lives in a country that makes money out of health, money out of religion,money out of trashing the planet for resources,doesn't understand that a country is judged on how it treats the poorest of its citizens and not the wealthiest.
    This mindset of the dollar above all else has now got itself deep into debt.There is a price to be for greed and they will be paying it, or at least their children will, for years to come.But I guess the natives in their reservations won't be shedding a tear.

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  • 229. At 7:07pm on 08 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    Who will mourn Mankind?
    "Not I," said the fish in the sea.
    "Not I," said the creatures on the land.
    "Not I," said the birds in the air.
    "Who?" said the microbes.

    A man said to the Universe, "I exist!"
    "However," replied the universe,
    "The fact has not created in me
    a sense of obligation."

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  • 230. At 7:19pm on 08 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    alphamiguel can't bring himself to post on any subject without grinding his axe on the subject of treatment of Native Americans, it seems.

    Native Americans are not prisoners on reservations, they are US citizens like the rest of us, with all the freedoms that go along with it. They can live and work outside of reservations, as many have. They can hold elective office, as a few have.

    Some tribes are successful at improving their lives on reservations while preserving their native culture, but some others seem to want the independence (from state, not US jurisdiction) that reservations give them, without assuming responsibility for their own condition.

    The victim act is getting a little old, I think.

    Here is another Native American viewpoint:

    http://www.visionmagazine.com/archives/0907/LivingArts_Native.html

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  • 231. At 7:41pm on 08 Jul 2009, justeon wrote:

    Republican's are blinded by a self-righteous, hypocritical attitude, they confuse smugness with knowledge. Because they are always pointing fingers at everyone else that leaves very little time for them to indulge in self-awareness. They are however, always good for a laugh. BTW Nixon was raised a Quaker, and I believe that Hoover was a Quaker as well.

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  • 232. At 7:47pm on 08 Jul 2009, seanspa wrote:

    There's that generalising again.

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  • 233. At 7:47pm on 08 Jul 2009, justeon wrote:

    Regarding the US. The rest of the world seems to act as if the US is the Crazy Uncle who is a loose fisted millionaire. They are by turns afraid, grateful, angry that they take the money they decry at every turn, and slavishly coping every style he wears, while heaping condemnation on him. Sounds neurotic, is neurotic.

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  • 234. At 7:49pm on 08 Jul 2009, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    Me at # 209 to "AmericanGrizzly"

    "As I recall you've made this claim - that Al Sharpton was Obama's first visitor in the White House - before./...So if you have evidence, and preferably a link to it, I'd be very interested in hearing about it."

    He replied at # 218

    "Joe In Dublin/Well it has been broadcast over the radio here in the US. So you will have to review it there. But I was able to locate a few quotes from Obama. Try Al Sharptons National Action Network. Try Politico. Both are on the web. Don't you people read whats going on? I read,watch, and listen to all perspectives, but doesn't mean I agree with them. So get out there an be an information sponge. I could care less if you agree with me or not. Everyone has an opinion."

    [a] The fact that you call me "Joe In Dublin" probably says more than I ever could about your commitment to accuracy.

    [b] Your avoiding the question and changing the subject makes me wonder - have you ever considered a career in politics?

    [c] Your answer is essentially - "No, I have no proof for my repeated claim, except that I think I may have heard some unnamed person on some unnamed radio station say it". If you did hear it, was it from a porky chap called Rush, by any chance?

    [d] I did another quick web search. I came up with no evidence for this claim at all. I understand that Sharpton has visited the White house, and also did so during the Bush and Clinton presidencies. He apparently was there in June - accompanied by those 2 leftist firebrands Michael Bloomberg & Newt Gingrich.

    [e] Thank you for the lecture on how to obtain data. I too obtain data from various sources. The difference is I avoid passing on 'something I heard' as fact.

    [f] "I could care less if you agree with me or not." What you mean of course is that you couldn't care less whether I agree with you or not. The fact that this error is common among Americans is no excuse.

    [g] "Everyone has an opinion." Indeed. Fortunately most people can distinguish between opinions, rumours, and facts.

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  • 235. At 7:51pm on 08 Jul 2009, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    # 227 Hesiodos

    The words 'Two' and 'Shea' spring to mind.

    ;-)

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  • 236. At 8:01pm on 08 Jul 2009, bere54 wrote:

    234, john-in-Dublin -

    Thank you for [f]. This is something that irritates me no end; I've never been able to figure out why people use an incorrect expression that says the opposite of what they mean to say. I once asked a friend why she does this, knowing it to be incorrect, and her reply was: "I say it that way because everyone else does." That was depressing.

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  • 237. At 8:41pm on 08 Jul 2009, hms_shannon wrote:

    Ref 182 Squirrelist,

    There is this chap called Sqirrelist,
    With beer I would meet.
    A hot fought doggerel contest,
    Its me ,that he did beat.

    When fingers grace keyboard,
    Character one can tell.
    For courage whilst suffering,
    His example serves us well.

    Some have to come from England,
    By virtue of their birth.
    For him its honorary Welsh man,
    As he shares our sence of mirth.

    Our green & pleasent has its foes,
    Feaks and nigh do well.
    Squirrelist & me is British
    They all can go to hell.

    The End.

    I am going out and may be quite some time.


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  • 238. At 8:46pm on 08 Jul 2009, David Cunard wrote:

    #212. 2009, arclightt: "AG's question may not seem reasonable on the surface, but to the extent that LAPD's operating funds (or the operating funds for any city or county service in CA) are provided out of state resources, it's actually a useful question."

    You should have written that "some of LAPD's operating funds (or the operating funds for any city or county service in CA) are provided out of state resources" since about 44% of the city budget, raised from local tax payers, goes to the LAPD.

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  • 239. At 8:46pm on 08 Jul 2009, alphamiguel wrote:

    230.

    Wrong again, 2% of Indians live under American jurisdiction ie off the reservation.This is one of their gripes.Not a lot is taught you about you own history.
    Lets try again.The Navajo have a casino,they are also dying from uranium mining from the past.
    What you are saying in essence is, it's my way,or no way.Let's hope another nation in the future doesn't covert and trash your place.These comments you make have been made for centuries,the old colonial mantra.Look here is a native,he's made good he's a millionaire.Just follow our rules and we will back you all the way.
    Remember the line in The Outlaw Jose Wales by the Cherokee, we went to Washington and they told us "endeavour to persevere".So we went home and thought about that and then declared war on the Union.
    So,my people don't have the lowest life expectancy in the world, or the ninth if you include aids,so everything in the gardens o.k then? Ignorance of you own indigenous people is well documented.You see because of the internet for the first time in their history they are now able to put the record straight,sorry if it's uncomfortable.Even your man said,we gave you tobacco that makes us even.

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  • 240. At 8:47pm on 08 Jul 2009, hms_shannon wrote:

    PS 229.
    Bloody Hell Hesiodos, you sound like the scottish private Frazer,in dads army telling us we are all doomed,cheer up for crying out loud..

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  • 241. At 8:54pm on 08 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    alpha.. clearly has a chip on his shoulder, as we say. He is an example of the type of person Walks With Thunder is trying to reach, but it's going to be difficult, I see.

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  • 242. At 8:56pm on 08 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#230 Garyahill

    Very interesting.

    I would ask, who is this person who calls himself "Walks With Thunder" that you have linked? What do you actually know of this person?

    I would be interested in more knowledge.

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  • 243. At 8:58pm on 08 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To Garahill:

    I am sorry. I neglected to add: 'Thank You' at the end of my previous post.

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  • 244. At 9:05pm on 08 Jul 2009, WELLHELLO111 wrote:

    "You (as I) have been an ardent supporter of President O,"

    Are you saying that Mr Webb is breaching his obligation, as a BBC employee, to be impartial?

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  • 245. At 9:09pm on 08 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    I would speak to the concept of 'victim.'

    I think that commodity does have a limited shelf life even though there are some in this world who would exploit it ad infinitum.

    My experience of our native people is that they do not see themselves as victims but as people still struggling for a fair share of what we all aspire to. Those who would promote the idea that there is no prejudice, no inequality and no blocks to prosperity must be living lives of exceptional opportunity.

    This is not true for everyone.

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  • 246. At 9:11pm on 08 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    aquarizonagal (#242), I do not know Walks With Thunder. I came across the item he wrote by Google search on the subject of Native American conditions. I just thought it was a refreshing point of view to hear from a Native American writer, so posted it as an alternate viewpoint to be considered. He alone is responsible for the opinions he expressed.

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  • 247. At 9:23pm on 08 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    U Kan make me Wail

    The English language like all manmade things can only take so much abuse before it fractures. Your poetry tests its outermost limits.

    "I am going out and may be quite some time."

    Don't hurry back on my account.

    GaryAHill

    Between his moniker and his postings "alphamiguel" doesn't conjure up an image of a native American to me, at least not of one north of the Rio Grande. Frankly, I think this guy just has some bitterness about America. Now why could that be do you suppose?

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  • 248. At 9:24pm on 08 Jul 2009, seanspa wrote:

    Gary, where did you post the article. Not in #241.

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  • 249. At 9:26pm on 08 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#246 Garyahill

    And you are certain he is a Native American writer because.....?

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  • 250. At 9:29pm on 08 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    seanspa (#248), it's linked in #230.

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  • 251. At 9:36pm on 08 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#247 MarcusareliusII

    Speculation in a context of limited knowledge may produce faulty conclusions.

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  • 252. At 9:37pm on 08 Jul 2009, bere54 wrote:

    What's with all those pictures of women in ball gowns on Walks with Thunder's website?

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  • 253. At 9:37pm on 08 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    here are some hypotheses as to why a certain someone might have a chip on his shoulder;

    He is from one place and wishes he was from another.

    He is in one place and wishes he was in another he can't get to.

    He is in a place where he doesn't belong, feels he's entitled to be there, and is afraid if the wrong people find out about it, he will be forced to leave. What's more, since he doesn't belong there, he has no legal redress against anyone who wrongs him because he would draw attention to himself and will be discovered.

    He's been discovered in a place he doesn't belong and is being forced to leave or has been in the past.

    Anyway, however you slice it, it sounds like pure jealousy to me.

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  • 254. At 9:42pm on 08 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    diagonal #243

    "To Garahill:

    I am sorry. I neglected to add: 'Thank You' at the end of my previous post."

    Unforgivable. I know places where displays of such rudeness would result in being banned for life. You meet all kinds on the internet.

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  • 255. At 9:46pm on 08 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#253 MarcusareliusII

    Was this post meant to be autobiographical?

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  • 256. At 10:04pm on 08 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    "Do you make up others posts " daisydiety
    No if Obama is an atheist, why lie? If Obama is not a racist, why hang out with Al Sharpton, and Rev Wright? You think it is appropriate to lie to the American people about religion? That is absurd, so it either makes you a liar, or a hypocrite. Whats to understand.???? Come clean, take honestly, why be elected by trying to be all things to all people? That is not a leader, that is a lying politician who will do anything to get elected....

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  • 257. At 10:06pm on 08 Jul 2009, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #214

    I've always hated the term hardworking as belonging to one party.

    Now I venture to suggest that Sarah Palin had to work harder than Obama did while he was in the Illinois State legislature. The Presidential campaign was probaly his hardest work effort.

    I always find unions claim that mandate and I have seen especially on the state leval some f the laziest workers are union

    How many people who posted know that Richard Nixon was a Quaker?

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  • 258. At 10:07pm on 08 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    "[d] I did another quick web search. I came up with no evidence for this claim at all. I understand that Sharpton has visited the White house, and also did so during the Bush and Clinton presidencies. He apparently was there in June - accompanied by those 2 leftist firebrands Michael Bloomberg & Newt Gingrich." Joe in Dublin
    That was in May.. your facts are wrong it was in the Washington Post, sorry you don't listen to the radio, buy some batteries. Or run for office as your fact you published is wrong.

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  • 259. At 10:09pm on 08 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    #254 MarcusareliusII

    Yes.

    I understand that "banning" is a form of eliminating those who have diagonally opposed opinions on this site.

    Thank You, so very much!

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  • 260. At 10:14pm on 08 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    230. At 7:19pm on 08 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:
    alphamiguel can't bring himself to post on any subject without grinding his axe on the subject of treatment of Native Americans, it seems.

    Native Americans are not prisoners on reservations, they are US citizens like the rest of us, with all the freedoms that go along with it. They can live and work outside of reservations, as many have. They can hold elective office, as a few have.

    Some tribes are successful at improving their lives on reservations while preserving their native culture, but some others seem to want the independence (from state, not US jurisdiction) that reservations give them, without assuming responsibility for their own condition.

    The victim act is getting a little old, I think."


    It is an act is it? Oh I thought the genocides, racial prejudice were bvery real.

    Isn't it odd this victim thing?

    No one disputes the right of white jews in the US and Europe to commemorate Holocaust day. It is even illegal to deny it in some countries.

    But hey its OK to get irritated at native Americans, Koories, blacks etc for insisting on remembering their injustices.


    Baba Yar - terrible atrocity

    Washita Creek, Myall Creek etc etc - Guys get over it and change colour!



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  • 261. At 10:14pm on 08 Jul 2009, _marko wrote:

    RE rude/disagreeable/autobiographical posts

    We must all rejoice in the fact that humans have a limited lifespan and will eventually die and no longer be able to post redundant opinions.

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  • 262. At 10:16pm on 08 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    "May 7, 2009, 3:06 pm
    Bloomberg, Sharpton and Gingrich
    By Helene Cooper
    They dont agree on much, but New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, the Rev. Al Sharpton and former Speaker Newt Gingrich put aside their differences on Thursday to talk up public education at the White House.

    This is an issue that should bring all Americans together, Mr. Gingrich told reporters at a stakeout after meeting with Mr. Obama and the two New Yorkers.

    Fifty-five years after Brown versus the Board of Education, theres still a difference in how students get up in the morning and go to school, Mr. Sharpton said. Some are treated differently. Some are funded differently. Some face different principles, different teachers. There is a difference in the quality of education.

    The White House session came on the same day that Mr. Obama unveiled $17 billion in targeted budget cuts, including some for education. But Mr. Obamas stimulus plan includes $15 billion for early learning programs and big one-time spending for elementary and secondary education as well. "
    Yeah right Joe In Dublin! More like toothless hey.

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  • 263. At 10:16pm on 08 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 264. At 10:18pm on 08 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    247. At 9:23pm on 08 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    "Between his moniker and his postings "alphamiguel" doesn't conjure up an image of a native American to me, at least not of one north of the Rio Grande. Frankly, I think this guy just has some bitterness about America. Now why could that be do you suppose?"


    Right and this would be because?

    Blacks and now native Americans. Sounds you don't like many Americans, except the WASP elite whic is growing smaller by the year.

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  • 265. At 10:19pm on 08 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    "I could care less if you agree with me or not." What you mean of course is that you couldn't care less whether I agree with you or not. The fact that this error is common among Americans is no excuse."
    There is the fact JACK.
    to go with the rest of your attack drivel.

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  • 266. At 10:21pm on 08 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 267. At 10:26pm on 08 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    215. At 5:41pm on 08 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    ". When the answers come back, well see if his trigger finger is any less itchy than President Bush's was. He may not have absolute power but with the US military in his holster, he's got the closest thing to it on this earth. "

    The US military! The same force that couldn't end an insurgency in Iraq, blunders around in Afghanistan (this war against a ragged army has already lastyed longer than WWII), bungled Vietnam, was made a fool of in Somalia.

    Obama is very wise not to use the boys of F-Troop and Gomer Pyle unduly

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  • 268. At 10:27pm on 08 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    "Investigative reporter
    msnbc.com
    updated 4:54 p.m. ET, Tues., June 16, 2009


    Bill Dedman
    Investigative reporter

    The Obama administration is fighting to block access to names of visitors to the White House, taking up the Bush administration argument that a president doesn't have to reveal who comes calling to influence policy decisions."
    Maybe you can use this 16 June 2009 report that has been going on to aid you in you loss to find facts Jack. or Joe in Dublin

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  • 269. At 10:31pm on 08 Jul 2009, justeon wrote:

    Fascinating how this series of blogs have devolved. In reference to # 247 ""I am going out and may be quite some time." Which reminds me of what Oates (I believe) said as he left the tent on the failed Scott expedition to the South Pole. BTW has any author followed up on the easily provable fact that whilst Scott was in his tent writing about the fierce storm keeping them from seeking the supplies that would save them only 11 miles away, there was in fact no storm at all, and his shipmates were out on the ice searching for him? I have often wondered if he had a form of the madness that is not uncommon in Antarctica. I wonder what really happened to his tent mates, and how they died.

    Anyhow, in reference to #257 who wonders if anyone knew if Nixon was Quaker, yes I do and posted sometime previous to that post. Thank you for repeating it.

    I am alway amazed at the 'Lee Harvey Oswald's' among the republican party. What they don't understand or agree with they wish to destroy. They often speak of killing or harming presidents, government people and then bomb Federal building full of infants and toddlers, like in Oklahoma. I suspect it is because infants and toddlers are dangerous to them as they have the same mental and emotional age.

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  • 270. At 10:48pm on 08 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    "You should talk to a state worker, you will find they are just like you." Simon21
    Actually I worked for DOD, and I know people who work for the state, and have actually worked with many. But you Simon21 try to use a smoke screen to cloud the true issue. Stimulus was to create jobs, not to grow government.

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  • 271. At 10:51pm on 08 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    aquarizonagal (#245) "My experience of our native people is that they do not see themselves as victims but as people still struggling for a fair share of what we all aspire to."

    A good point. Fairness (justice) is the objective, but there is some room for discussion about what is fair and how to achieve it. There has been (and remains) a lot of injustice in the world, and not limited to only a few groups. At some point individuals (and groups) must take some responsibility for improving their lot in life. That's my opinion.

    I expect most people who post here have known some injustice in their life. Only a few find it necessary to remind the rest of us at every opportunity, whatever the topic under discussion.

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  • 272. At 11:27pm on 08 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#271 Garyahill

    You have also made a good point. There are those who wish to dwell in victim-hood on this blog as a means of diverting any discussion to their own agenda.

    As for other victims: Many have a very small voice, that voice is seldom really heard and they lack the means to post here.

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  • 273. At 11:28pm on 08 Jul 2009, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    AmericanGrizzly at # 258 and various others, ad nauseam

    You're so right, whether the three individuals in question visited the White House in May or June is clearly the vitally important issue here.

    Your inability to manage to type the word John puts your campaign for accuracy into rather sharp relief.

    The fact remains, you repeatedly claimed as fact something for which you had neither proof nor evidence. I pointed this out, and you threw a hissy fit. [Several, in fact.]

    Get over it.

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  • 274. At 11:33pm on 08 Jul 2009, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    # 257 MagicKirin

    "I've always hated the term hardworking as belonging to one party./Now I venture to suggest that Sarah Palin had to work harder than Obama did while he was in the Illinois State legislature. The Presidential campaign was probaly [sic] his hardest work effort./I always find unions claim that mandate and I have seen especially on the state leval [sic] some f [sic] the laziest workers are union"

    Indeed.

    Why I've heard that President Obama and those union workers are so lazy, they can barely manage to write a single correctly spelled and punctuated sentence.

    Shocking - quite shocking.

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  • 275. At 11:35pm on 08 Jul 2009, TheFirstRalph wrote:

    1: 'Maybe the Republicans are still blinded by the slave trade mentality'

    Jefferson Davis and most of the leaders of the Confederate States of America were Democrats, those who introduced the Jim Crow laws were Democrats, and the party a third of which voted against the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Democrats. Spot the pattern?

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  • 276. At 00:06am on 09 Jul 2009, Israel Ambe Ayongwa wrote:

    Good bye Justin. You will be sorely missed by me. I wish you the very best as you host the Today programme. It is always very hard parting. I know you have always been my inspiration when it comes to writing and today I feel very sad. Good luck!

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  • 277. At 00:14am on 09 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    diagonal

    "To#253 MarcusareliusII

    Was this post meant to be autobiographical?"

    No, aquazoniful!

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  • 278. At 00:23am on 09 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    What do you do when you want to bash America by criticizing it for victimizing some group of its citizens and it's no longer possible to use African Americans as the victims becaue the President of the United States happens to be African American as is a Supreme Court Justice, many in Congress, corporate executives, TV and sports personalities, and other powerful people in every walk of American life? You can't use women because they occupy the same places and one was the odds on favorite to be President until the candidate who won came along. Hispanic Americans, similar problem. Now who can they get? Well it fell on poor native Americans we used to call Indians to be portrayed as the victims. Now who to blame for it all? "The Establishment" as represented most prominently by......President Obama!

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  • 279. At 00:31am on 09 Jul 2009, publiusdetroit wrote:

    Ref 271 Gary_A_Hill

    A good point. Fairness (justice) is the objective, but there is some room for discussion about what is fair and how to achieve it. There has been (and remains) a lot of injustice in the world, and not limited to only a few groups. At some point individuals (and groups) must take some responsibility for improving their lot in life. That's my opinion.

    Thank you for pointing the way for the Red Man.

    With your considerable knowledge and vast insight gained from reading a single article on the internet (from the much venerated and acclaimed, non-traditional Shaman, Walks With Thunder); will you please propose for those of us ,not entirely white in our redness, what we should do to become like you? It is our greatest desire. We've tried so hard with nobody to lead us into the white world.

    You must have great knowledge of conditions and life on "Indian" reservations that were so thoughtfully granted to the native people by a just and compassionate government. What a kind blessing it was for the United States government to find such highly desirable lands to relocate those native tribes that they did not gleefully exterminate. May God Bless the U.S.A.

    Please, Great Father, show us the way.


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  • 280. At 00:48am on 09 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    UK Welshman,

    • "you sound like the scottish private Frazer,in dads army telling us we are all doomed,cheer up for crying out loud.."
    God Bless the Prince of Wales!
    • "The first question I want to ask is how we have landed ourselves and the rest of the world in the mess that it now struggles to overcome? Because it does struggle. We have more than enough scientific evidence that proves this to be so. But more than this, what is it that drives us on to exacerbate the problems? Why do we tip the balance of the Earths delicate systems with yet more destruction, even though we know in our heart of hearts that in doing so we will most likely risk bringing everything down around us?"

    Transcript

    My kind of nutter!
    Slainte!

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  • 281. At 01:02am on 09 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#278 MarcusareliusII

    What?

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  • 282. At 01:09am on 09 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    "All those that voted for him would say "no more" those that didn't vote for him were more often than not a little racist and so they will not vote for him anyway." daisydeity
    So let me get this right in your mind if you didn't vote for Obama your a racist. Wow, you view all your fellow citizens as ignorant racists that didn't vote for Obama. That people who differ in opinion aren't allowed to raise their voice, nor suggest that they disagree. Wow didn't Hitler and countless other despots already do that, like in Iran. I wonder how many are as rabid as you in this view. I didn't like his history, I don't wish him ill, but I don't like the way this country is heading. Lastly he is not doing it alone, Congress and the Senate also play a part. Let history record their names also...

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  • 283. At 01:13am on 09 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    237. ukwales wrote: Ref 182 Squirrelist

    I am truly touched. (Shut up Marcus Obnoxious, don't even thinkit.)

    And humbled by such a splendid song.

    A real bard.

    I raise my acorn cup of mead to the poetic prince of Wales!

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  • 284. At 01:13am on 09 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    "Your inability to manage to type the word John puts your campaign for accuracy into rather sharp relief." John/Jack in Dublin
    Did you ever hear of John Fitzgerald Kennedy, they called him Jack. But must be another fact you missed, Sure you live in the United States... HMMM.

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  • 285. At 01:18am on 09 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    Because you can't ascertain if you wish to accept the media reporting items and weighing the objectivity. What did you think about the White House not providing who has been there? Embarassment, huh, your dog doesn't hunt Jack. It looks like you close your eyes to reports that suit you and the rest of the Obamadrones. Typical of both party hacks to disavow all...Bye Jack without the facts

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  • 286. At 01:21am on 09 Jul 2009, publiusdetroit wrote:

    Ref 278 MarcusAurelius

    Huummp! White man point finger at black man, say he problem.

    I know that you are well immersed in United States history, so I wonder how you are able to blame the current President of the United States for two hundred and twenty-three years of ruthless and senseless United States government control of the "Indian Problem"?

    (Indians live in the nation of India, on the sub-continent of India, located on the other side of the globe. We can't help it that some fool white guy got lost and claimed he found India just so he could feel that he was right, and not make a fool of himself to his poxy, mutinous crew who were more than willing to stretch his neck from a yardarm.)

    If you are going to go pointing a rightous finger; then point it at not only the Executive, but also the Legislative and Judicial branches of the United States government. Then you can go on to point it at the U.S. Bureau of Indian Affairs (the name tells you that they still don't know who they are dealing with); the U.S. Department of Interior; the U.S. Bureau of Land Reclamation; the U.S. National Park System;...the list goes on and on for a very long length.

    It all boils down to; white man still speak with forked tongue. Hide the women and children.

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  • 287. At 01:38am on 09 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    It's good to be right,
    It's just like being white.

    Being dead, they said,
    Is better than being red.

    If you're yellow,
    You can't be mellow,

    While being brown
    Gets you done down.

    Anybody who's black:
    Stand back!

    It's not a racial slight
    To tell us to 'think white'
    If you're at the top of the tree
    In the Land of the Free.

    I think that summarises the general trend of some posts of late?

    Do some people realise what they are actually saying?

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  • 288. At 01:53am on 09 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    squirrel

    "I am truly touched."

    Finally an honest admission and the first thing you ever posted I can agree with.

    pubiusdetroitus;

    Why shouldn't I be allowed to point an accusing finger at someone who had nothing to do with it just the way everyone else does? I have the same right to make false accusations as anyone. OK, then I accuse Clarence Thomas, Ron Dellums, John Conyers, Charles Rangell, Ed Towns, John Lewis,....wanna hear more?

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  • 289. At 01:57am on 09 Jul 2009, justeon wrote:

    Folks who call themselves American (place wild animal name here) are often nutters. Whereas squirrelist appears not to be. Interesting isn't it.

    I am blessed with being part American Indian, or American Aborigine, or Native American etc. I look at Mexico, where most of the population is either Native American or mixed with Native American. It is an interesting picture. Native Americans were not always or mostly friends of the earth, and often would slaughter a herd of bison to get some meat. Quite often areas of Native American settlements have junk cars and oil and other contaminants poured on the ground. Poor Mother Earth. Europeans and people in the US are indeed resource hungry and do alter their environments quite a lot. So if they are evil why do the other folks on the planet want to be like them? Wouldn't the challenge be to produce new more energy efficient means of living, with renewable energy sources and not just copy those who they decry? Or does that mean folks would have to accept responsibility and not just blame the US for everything?

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  • 290. At 02:13am on 09 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    288.

    Sigh.

    OK, then. Ha Ha. Ha. Tee hee. Oh what a latf. What a risible chap. So full of fun and jolly japes. Such a wit. Pity only half of him came.

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  • 291. At 02:25am on 09 Jul 2009, publiusdetroit wrote:

    Ref 288 MarcusAureliusII

    Why shouldn't I be allowed to point an accusing finger at someone who had nothing to do with it just the way everyone else does? I have the same right to make false accusations as anyone. OK, then I accuse Clarence Thomas, Ron Dellums, John Conyers, Charles Rangell, Ed Towns, John Lewis,....wanna hear more?

    I do know where there is a cliff that everyone is jumping from; would you want to join them? I think you are a more logical individual than that. You can allow yourself to do as your conscience allows. I would hope that it is your goal in life to always direct your conscience towards higher ground, and not bend to fools jumping off cliffs.

    I would also think, being the historically inquisitive person that you are, that you would be far better informed about the legacy and current challenges, originating from the United States government, facing the native people.

    An interesting read is Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. A fine, rather modern example of how the U.S. government settles the "Indian Problem" through truth, justice, and the 'American' way. If you care to learn more about the culture of several native tribes, Henry Schoolcraft has documented a wealth of information; some of which is available to be read at no charge here.

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  • 292. At 02:33am on 09 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    289. At 01:57am on 09 Jul 2009, justeon wrote:

    "Folks who call themselves American (place wild animal name here) are often nutters. Whereas squirrelist appears not to be. Interesting isn't it."

    A little ambiguous, I thought. Not American, or not a nutter? (MAII: I shall lose patience with you entirely, soon. Don't.) I don't mind, it's just that some around here will grab any opportunity to be anti-squirrel. Especially after they've had a bard writing epic poetry about them. They get jealous.

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  • 293. At 02:36am on 09 Jul 2009, Lee Roy Sanders, Jr. wrote:

    I wish the foundation of political topics actually held any ground. This is simple propaganda. The people don't have a voice in their government. Government tell the people how to think, what to think and where to put their emotions. Sarah Palin, Obama, the Pope, Justin Webb, etc.. stings on puppets dangle and tangle. People are so afraid to think for their self. Government has become a enslaver of the human mind and the enemy of their people.

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  • 294. At 02:48am on 09 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    293. At 02:36am on 09 Jul 2009, Lee Roy Sanders, Jr.

    Which government told you to think that?

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  • 295. At 02:50am on 09 Jul 2009, arclightt wrote:

    @238 (DC): "You should have written that "some of LAPD's operating funds (or the operating funds for any city or county service in CA) are provided out of state resources" since about 44% of the city budget, raised from local tax payers, goes to the LAPD."

    Since I don't know how local budgets in CA counties and cities are actually split between direct taxation and indirect funding through state and Federal sources, I had to say "...to the extent that...".

    What I was trying to point out is that if a city is depending on state funding for part of its budget (which is common) and the state doesn't come through with funds, the city is going to be hurting to a small or large extent. That's why the question is actually a useful one for CA cities and counties to ask. It's also one that every other jurisdiction should be asking. That's all I was trying to say.

    Regards, and I'm going to vacation for a coupla days.

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  • 296. At 02:58am on 09 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    pubius detroitus

    "I would hope that it is your goal in life to always direct your conscience towards higher ground, and not bend to fools jumping off cliffs."

    If I were not ready, willing, and able to bend to fools jumping off cliffs, do you think I'd spend time posting on BBC blogs like this one? Don't put me on a pedistal by trying to appeal to my better nature. As those who have read my posting have been dismayed to find out...I don't have one.

    I am not interested in the contemporary issues facing Native Americans. I wish them well but I'm not following their issues just now. I am much more interested in their historical culture of past eras, both the reality and the obviously distorted popular culture including the stereotypes. I've visited some sites from the Mayan ruins at Tulum in the Yucatan peninsula to the Totem park in Ketchikan Alaska. I've been fascinated by the vast collection of artifacts on display at the American Museum of Natural History I've viewed countless times. I've got quite a number of texts on Native American cultures. I even once shared an office with a pure blooded Native Amrican from a tribe in Washington State for about a year. When we were kids, we dressed up as Native Americans as often as we dressed up as cowboys and were fascinated by them both from studying early American history in which they played a crucial role and because they were much more prominent in the popular culture than they seem to be today today. I have no explanation of why that is so. Frankly they were fun to learn about. Among my prized possessions was an authentic Native American headdress and what a magnificent thing it was. I wish I still had it. My attitude is that it is simply part of America's past and present. I neither deride it nor romanticize it, I just accept it and I certainly don't feel any reason to apologize for it.

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  • 297. At 03:18am on 09 Jul 2009, Lee Roy Sanders, Jr. wrote:

    294. At 02:48am on 09 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:
    293. At 02:36am on 09 Jul 2009, Lee Roy Sanders, Jr.

    Which government told you to think that?

    "Reply: My Sanity, the government of good sense!"

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  • 298. At 03:26am on 09 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    " What I was trying to point out is that if a city is depending on state funding for part of its budget (which is common) and the state doesn't come through with funds, the city is going to be hurting to a small or large extent." arclightt

    They don't beleive you, the Obama people are myopic vision. My town gets funding from the state also, quite a bit for education. The stimulus package is being used to keep broke states afloat, very little job creation.

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  • 299. At 03:44am on 09 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    "The number of unemployed persons (14.7 million) and the unemployment
    rate (9.5 percent) were little changed in June. Since the start of the
    recession in December 2007, the number of unemployed persons has increas-
    ed by 7.2 million, and the unemployment rate has risen by 4.6 percentage
    points." United States Bureau of Labor

    Yeah that stimulus package should be kickin in any day now...well maybe in a week, month, year? Guess that means Stimulus II.....Stimulus III, sounds like a Rocky movie. Gee. well at least its not wreakage until the bill comes due.

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  • 300. At 03:57am on 09 Jul 2009, publiusdetroit wrote:

    Ref 289 justeon

    Did you just drive through the reservation(s); or did you stop to talk with the people and discover how they lost their guardianship of the land? Have you been to Cherokee and Choctaw reservations in Oklahoma?

    If you were taken from your family at a very tender age and made to go to a foreign school where you were beaten and chained to a post whenever you mentioned the way in which your family lived; or how they expressed their spirituality; or mentioned anything about the history of your family; would you be so quick to judge the people of the reservations?

    This is what the U.S. government, with the support of the 'American' people, did to the surviving native population.

    If you were intentionally starved and given whiskey when you asked for meat; might you become a fool?

    This is what the U.S. government, with the support of the 'American' people, did to the surviving native population.

    If you've ever driven through the coal mining regions of West Virgina and seen the poverty; rusting piles of discarded appliances; old, abandoned vehicles; household rubbish...litering once beautiful landscape; you may not be so quick to judge. That's not an 'indian' reservation you are driving through.

    You may wish to do some digging into your red heritage to learn of the old ways before you accept the very biased writings of white "historians" and the modern image of the native people which is based upon Penny Novels of the 1800's and cowboy movies of the mid-1900's. You will find a rich culture developed by a good, and respectful people. You will also find that native history as written in school books is terribly distorted. The victors write their history to give themselves the reflection they wish to see.

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  • 301. At 04:01am on 09 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    "People are so afraid to think for their self. Government has become a enslaver of the human mind and the enemy of their people."
    Lee Roy Sanders, Jr.

    "I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholsome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discreation by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power." Thomas Jefferson

    But some believe: "War is Peace
    Freedom is Slavery
    Ignorance is Strength"

    "These three slogans of the Party were engraved on the
    Ministry of Truth building." George Orwell 1984

    We really need to discuss ideas, not goosestep into the future. Okay bring on the personal attacks, again.

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  • 302. At 04:17am on 09 Jul 2009, justeon wrote:

    Let's see, the republican party took the surplus generated under Clnton and p-----ed away on wars and circuses. Now they want their fiasco repaired in 6 months or they will have a hissy fit. Right. That is republican thinking in a nut shell. They refuse to accept responsibility for their messes, and when someone doesn't clean it up quickly enough they get all sulky and tearful. Bless their little pointed heads.

    Wouldn't it be great if they admitted they messed up, acted as adults and pitched in to help the US get back on its feet? Don't hold our breath, because they are set upon being obstructionist and trying to shift blame. Wouldn't it be great if there were patriots and statesmen and stateswomen in the republican party who wanted Obama to succeed because that would help the country.
    It would be a great thing if, instead of being dogs in a manger, they would support paying the bills they ran up under Bush. You need income to pay your bills, that is why we have taxes it is income to pay the bills generated by the US. Haven't you ever balanced a check book? If you spend billions every month, you need billions in taxes to pay for your spending. Bush and the repubs spent billions on their little oil war and refused to pay for it. Now we all get to pay off the repub/cheny/bush folly while they kvetch.
    Instead of billions to cheney's oil friends, Obama wants billions to go to the American public. Oh the horror! How could any repub stand for that! Indeed.

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  • 303. At 04:34am on 09 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    "Wednesday, June 17, 2009"

    "President Barack Obamas definition of transparency apparently doesnt include revealing the names of business representatives and other individuals who visit the White House."

    " The government has already lost two rulings by a federal judge in the case involving White House visitor records during the Bush years. That case was still pending when Obama took office, and his Justice Department has been instructed to continue the fight started by Republicans. The Obama administration is arguing that the White House visitor logs are presidential records, and thus not subject to Freedom of Information Act requests. "

    " Public interest groups on both the left and the right also filed suits in the case. The head of the GAO, David M. Walker, accused the Bush administration of making Cheney the head of the task force for the very reason that he could claim executive privilege and thus avoid congressional oversight. After a four-year court battle, that was exactly what the Supreme Court ruled."
    -Noel Brinkerhoff, David Wallechinsky
    Yeah for those that don't know Jack. Keep reading, no wonder Obama wants Sotomayor in there.....Not much different in the two party system here.

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  • 304. At 05:00am on 09 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    pubiusdetroitus;

    "If you were taken from your family at a very tender age and made to go to a foreign school where you were beaten and chained to a post whenever you mentioned the way in which your family lived; or how they expressed their spirituality; or mentioned anything about the history of your family; would you be so quick to judge the people of the reservations?"

    If the Apaches raided your caravan of Conastoga wagons, shot flaming arrows at it, burned it to the ground, ran off your horses, took your wife prisoner to become a brave's squaw, tied you to a stake in the heat of the desert so the fire ants would eat you alive, and then scalped you for their trophy room, would you be so quick to judge the people of the US Cavalry? This is all foolish talk. Grow up. They were savages, white men were savages. There were atrocities on both sides. Those are the facts of history. Europeans dredge these things up for hundred of years, that's what keeps them going, it's all they've got. Perhaps you also live to revel in the past, reliving countless injustices real and imagined. It's a convenient escape from present day failure and a wonderful scapegoat to ignore your own shortcomings in life. A tour guide who took me through Savannah Georgia was the quintessential genteel Southern woman full of warmth, charm, and hospitality until we passed a house where General Sherman had his headquarters. She got herself so worked up you'd think the Union Army had marched through Georgia to burn down everything from there to Atlanta just a week before and not 125 years in the past. Instead of dwelling on what can't be changed, mentally sound people focus on the present and the future. The past is dead. Time to set it aside now, it is not real or relevant for today's world.

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  • 305. At 05:47am on 09 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    304. At 05:00am on 09 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    "The past is dead. Time to set it aside now, it is not real or relevant for today's world."

    And it is because there are people like you who think like that, that the evils of history are continually repeated. And why people will die in the future for the same reasons they died in the past. Perhaps even including you, one day, Marcus.

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  • 306. At 05:48am on 09 Jul 2009, David Cunard wrote:

    #266. Simon21:Ref AmericanGrizzly "Oh dear, got turned down for a position as a street sweeper did you. How bitter is that?"

    Are there any street sweepers left in America? I thought we had all progressed to mechanical sweeping, which accounts for the many 'no parking' notices for certain days and hours.

    #230. Gary_A_Hill: "alphamiguel can't bring himself to post on any subject without grinding his axe on the subject of treatment of Native Americans"

    I don't think he can be American, since he wrote "Marcus lives in a country that makes money out of health, money out of religion,money out of trashing the planet for resources,doesn't understand that a country is judged on how it treats the poorest of its citizens and not the wealthiest. This mindset of the dollar above all else has now got itself deep into debt.There is a price to be for greed and they will be paying it, or at least their children will, for years to come."

    The italicised wording indicates that the writer is not in the United States.

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  • 307. At 06:14am on 09 Jul 2009, publiusdetroit wrote:

    Ref 304 MarcusAureliusII

    Of course one cannot change the past. The reservations still exist this very day and the United States government, with the support of the 'American' people, still continue stealing treaty lands and creating social problems on these reservations. There still is prejudice against the natives as demonstrated on this thread where more than one poster makes it clear that if the native people give up their culture and identity and unconditionally forgive their captors; they too can become part of the American dream instead of an irritating reminder of the genocide conducted by the United States government, with the support of the 'American' people.

    You write:

    "The past is dead. Time to set it aside now, it is not real or relevant for today's world."

    Answered by the time proven adage; Those who do not learn from the past, are condemned to repeat it.

    Can the German people so easily deny the Holocast as the 'American' people deny the deliberate and very calculated genocide of the native people?

    This is not a dead issue. It goes on day after day on reservations across this land. Hiding from and denying the existance of these continuing issues are the ways of cowards.

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  • 308. At 06:28am on 09 Jul 2009, KScurmudgeon wrote:

    279. At 00:31am on 09 Jul 2009, publiusdetroit wrote:
    "Thank you for pointing the way for the Red Man.
    With your considerable knowledge and vast insight gained from reading a single article on the internet (from the much venerated and acclaimed, non-traditional Shaman, Walks With Thunder); will you please propose for those of us ,not entirely white in our redness, what we should do to become like you? It is our greatest desire. We've tried so hard with nobody to lead us into the white world.
    You must have great knowledge of conditions and life on "Indian" reservations that were so thoughtfully granted to the native people by a just and compassionate government. What a kind blessing it was for the United States government to find such highly desirable lands to relocate those native tribes that they did not gleefully exterminate. May God Bless the U.S.A." - and much more of the same.

    What a load of whining offal. I have heard too much of this 'our ancestors were brutalized, so now and forever we are entitled. Our great-grand parents', or our great, great, great grandparent's suffering will never be washed away, so we will spend our lives lamenting it, and teach our grandchildren to do the same. it is our right, based on your wrong.'

    Get a clue. Great opportunities are at hand for you and your people - just reach out and grab them. Many, many of them have already. I don't know where you get the '2%' figure you use for native population off the reservation. Please supply the source, and what is meant by 'native American' in that survey - what quantum of blood? There are hundreds of thousands of descendants of original Americans thriving and prospering, and proud. Should we mourn ALL our dead throughout the ages?

    You are not alone, by the way - ever hear of the Irish? The parallels of suffering are striking, and so is the Irish success, at home and abroad.

    You mock the white world, but all it takes is what it has always taken, white or red, black or yellow or brown - just go do it. Those of you who cannot help yourselves will die out, on or off the reservation. Those of you who help yourselves will have strong children in many generations. Why beat yourself and everyone within reach? This is not red or white, it is how humans believe and behave if they have a future.

    grrrrumph!
    KScurmudgeon
    close enough to Oklahoma to know better.


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  • 309. At 06:30am on 09 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    306. At 05:48am on 09 Jul 2009, David_Cunard wrote:

    #230. Gary_A_Hill: "alphamiguel can't bring himself to post on any subject without grinding his axe on the subject of treatment of Native Americans"

    Don't know why axes have such a bad press. Nothing like a well-honed axe for cutting through a prejudice or ill-informed chop-logic. Or removing the thinking (?) part of the body in the case of the really recalcitrant who can't be brought to reason. As Henry VIII found.

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  • 310. At 06:45am on 09 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    308. At 06:28am on 09 Jul 2009, KScurmudgeon

    And I thought Malthus had been forgotten. And Social Darwinists had all died out. How wrong can you be?

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  • 311. At 06:56am on 09 Jul 2009, KScurmudgeon wrote:

    310. At 06:45am on 09 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    'And I thought Malthus had been forgotten. And Social Darwinists had all died out. How wrong can you be?'

    I am, without apology, an anachronism. And I can spell the word.

    KScurmudgeon

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  • 312. At 07:07am on 09 Jul 2009, publiusdetroit wrote:

    Ref 308 KScurmudgeon

    I made no reference to "2%" of anything in any of my posts regarding the subject of native people. Have no idea where you are getting that from; so am unable to provide references.

    You do offer a very lofty opinion for someone so void of knowledge on the subject of the native people; which is also reflective of you humanity.

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  • 313. At 07:15am on 09 Jul 2009, gunsandreligion wrote:

    309, Squirrel, how barbaric. Gunpowder was a civilizing influence after all.
    The "shot heard round the world" would never have been heard if all we had
    were edged weapons. Or boomerangs.

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  • 314. At 07:23am on 09 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    311. At 06:56am on 09 Jul 2009, KScurmudgeon

    And I can spell 'anatopistic', too.

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  • 315. At 07:40am on 09 Jul 2009, publiusdetroit wrote:

    Native civilizations prospered from thousands of years.

    The capitalistic civilization of the United States of America appears to be hanging heavily on the ropes after a mere 223 years. With the current, arch-rival divisiveness of the two-party system, and the many battling factions blindly supporting their own agenda (so vividly displayed on this blog every day) the chances for revival of the Great White Hope are dim. The bell on this round is still a long way off.

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  • 316. At 07:44am on 09 Jul 2009, publiusdetroit wrote:

    Ref 311 KScrumudgeon

    Red man no call you anachronism. Red man call you Great Big Gut.

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  • 317. At 07:47am on 09 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    313. At 07:15am on 09 Jul 2009, gunsandreligion wrote:

    "309, Squirrel, how barbaric. Gunpowder was a civilizing influence after all."


    Well it would have been if they'd only stuck with the sort that went 'whoosh' and gave off lots of pretty sparks.

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  • 318. At 08:16am on 09 Jul 2009, gunsandreligion wrote:

    Squirrel, we tried that. It fizzled. Ask the Chinese. They had to build a huge
    wall to keep the tourists out.

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  • 319. At 08:44am on 09 Jul 2009, hms_shannon wrote:

    Ref 280 Hesiodos,

    Have you ever done some thing & immediately regetted it?.For me just now its my post 240.For give me,your reply 280 was brill & well deserved,once again I am out classed,but being Welsh I am resilient & happy...

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  • 320. At 08:58am on 09 Jul 2009, Goangunner wrote:

    1. At 09:24am on 06 Jul 2009, U14058382 wrote:
    Maybe the Republicans are still blinded by the slave trade mentality
    Where Africans Came to be Looked Upon As Inferior
    Blacks were thought of as being less intelligent
    Blacks are usually left out of the race the human race
    ===================
    Why is it always when you talk of races you just use the "black & white" theory. Did u even know that majority of the world's population is not black nor white.I take offence when u say that blacks are blah blah blah in the human race.I'm Indian.Go figure where we have been and doing what when u talk about the black slave trade.

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  • 321. At 09:07am on 09 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    176. At 10:51pm on 07 Jul 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:
    To#174 MarcusareliusII

    Is it not interesting how some are allowed to "get away with things for so long" while others are like that bunny that just keeps going and going and going?


    Isn't it just? I've just noticed 253.

    At 9:37pm on 08 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote

    here are some hypotheses as to why a certain someone might have a chip on his shoulder [. . .]

    He is in a place where he doesn't belong, feels he's entitled to be there, and is afraid if the wrong people find out about it, he will be forced to leave. What's more, since he doesn't belong there, he has no legal redress against anyone who wrongs him because he would draw attention to himself and will be discovered.

    He's been discovered in a place he doesn't belong and is being forced to leave or has been in the past.

    Anyway, however you slice it, it sounds like pure jealousy to me.


    This seems a circumlocutory way of suggesting, while attempting to evade the consequences of putting it in terms, that a contributor who can be easily identified from the context is an illegal immigrant to the USA.

    If I can recognise that as a gratuitous slur, and quite deliberately offensive, and I do not think it is too difficult to do so, and I Imagine others will not find it so either, then why apparently cannot the moderators?

    I have already become very tired of reading these kinds of devious and malicious ploys here. I do not understand why they are effectively not only allowed, but to all intents and purposes, condoned.

    I have chosen to draw people's attention to it here rather than refer the post to the moderators. Who I hope will take note.

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  • 322. At 11:26am on 09 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    Grizz 299,

    • "Since the start of the recession in December 2007, the number of unemployed persons has increased by 7.2 million, and the unemployment rate has risen by 4.6 percentage points." United States Bureau of Labor"
    You might be interested in the table linked below, which shows data on other, perhaps better, ways to calculate just how many folk are truly unemployed. Have a look at the bottom line - U6 -:
    • " Total unemployed, plus all marginally attached workers, plus total employed part time for economic reasons, as a percent of the civilian labor force plus all marginally attached workers..... "

      (Last year: 10.3% May 09: 15.9% June 09: 16.8%)
      http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t12.htm


    Glad I'm retired!
    Slainte!

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  • 323. At 12:46pm on 09 Jul 2009, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    # 284 AlbanianPolarBear

    "Sure you live in the United States... HMMM."

    No, I am sure I don't live in the US. The clue is in the name. That's Dublin - the capital of Ireland. Geography clearly not your strong point.

    # 285 "Because you can't ascertain if you wish to accept the media reporting items and weighing the objectivity"

    Can anyone direct me to one of those translation sites, so I can try to translate that "sentence" into English?

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  • 324. At 2:24pm on 09 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    "Let's see, the republican party took the surplus generated under Clnton and p-----ed away on wars and circuses. Now they want their fiasco repaired in 6 months or they will have a hissy fit. Right. That is republican thinking in a nut shell. They refuse to accept responsibility for their messes, and when someone doesn't clean it up quickly enough they get all sulky and tearful. Bless their little pointed heads."

    Yeah the Republicans in Congress and the Senate under Clinton in his 2nd term in your mind played no part? Well the US Congress and Senate voted to got to war under Bush, the Democrats played no part? Both parties are the whole problem as is evident to all. They both need to clean up their act, and we do need new parties. Otherwise we go broke, or print more money and collapse.

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  • 325. At 2:29pm on 09 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 326. At 3:27pm on 09 Jul 2009, seanspa wrote:

    #325, AG, sometimes it's just best to shut up. Particularly when you screwed up.

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  • 327. At 4:06pm on 09 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    pubiusdetroitus;

    "This is not a dead issue. It goes on day after day on reservations across this land. Hiding from and denying the existance of these continuing issues are the ways of cowards."

    I'm not saying it is and I'm not saying there aren't real problems. I'm also not saying we can't learn from the past. But we can't continue to fight those battles that are long over and gone. Those battles of the past are not today's battles. The United States cannot revert back to the way things were 400 years ago. What would you have us do, all 299 million of us who are not Native Americans go back to where our ancestors came from so the Native Americans can revert to living as hunters? Would you give them back 99% of the land and have the rest of us live in small enclaves. If you have a practical suggestion, why not get involved? I have other things to do and I have no idea what should happen that would be best for them. I think that's for them to decide and work it out with the government. Perhaps we should send less foreign aid abroad and spend more of it on this problem. So what would you do?

    BTW, I can't waste my time arguing with someone who thinks of himself as a squirrel. Especially one who seems so "squirrely" to begin with.

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  • 328. At 4:06pm on 09 Jul 2009, justeon wrote:

    We are in a depression, the repubs policies and their concept of capitalism (raw greed) have destroyed the economy. We need unity in purpose to make things run again. We have to pay our debts, that means higher taxes. We have to make up the shortfall generated under the cheney/bush/repubs. They rewarded their oil buddies and cronies with billions, now we need to get billions into the economy. We need to put some of the folks who dynamited our economy in jail, and/or in front of a war crimes tribunal in The Hague. We need to send a message that America and the world can no longer put up with their immature dangerous actions. There have to be consequences to their stupidity and insanity. The adults have to take charge.
    Have you noticed how refreshing it is to have a US president go to world meetings and sound as if he is sober, intelligent and aware. My G-d how I have missed have a competent US president. Reagan and his note cards and forgetfulness, Bush Sr. hurling his sushi into the lap of the Japanese at a state dinner, the younger Bush unable to speak in complete sentences. Good grief, no wonder folks think the US likes to elect madmen and morons. With Obama we can turn that impression around, now we have an adult as president.

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  • 329. At 4:18pm on 09 Jul 2009, seanpmc1 wrote:

    I would be more inclined to say that Obama is a Modern Deist of one sort or another. My own beliefs tend to run towards "Process Deism", and I am well acquainted with other branches of Deism that have sprung up since the time of the founding Fathers. Lincoln is regarded as being Deist by many as well, so that could have been another resson for using the Lincoln Bible for his swearing-in.

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  • 330. At 4:39pm on 09 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    publiusDetroit (#279) appears to agree with me, although it's difficult to tell with all the sarcasm. (That's one problem with sarcasm, it obscures the message.) The message is: don't look to the "white man" for the answer -- the answer is within.

    In any case, don't look to me. I am not responsible for the plight of the Native American. I had nothing to do with it. My father had nothing to do with it. My grandfathers had nothing to do with it. My great-grandfathers I don't know about, but I'm not accepting any responsibility for their supposed sins. I have no more guilt for the European invasion of North America than I have for the Norman Invasion of England, which is to say, none.

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  • 331. At 4:59pm on 09 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    Seanpmc1,

    Well said. No dogma, just Respect.

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  • 332. At 5:22pm on 09 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    justeon;

    We are in a depression but it would be wrong to give Republicans all the credit for it. It took a lot of collaboration and a long time to undo the protections put in place in the 1930s to prevent this from happening and a lot of Democrats like Senator Christopher Dodd, Representative Barnie Franks, and President Clinton along with their colleagues had a big hand in it. Clinton even admitted partial responsibility for it. They thought and wanted to believe that everyone in America could own their own home even if they couldn't afford it. If they made credit easily available, somehow things would eventually work themselves out. Republicans merely went along with it because their friends found a way to make huge personal profits out of it even as their employers and the companies those employers sold their financial products to were handling the ticking time bombs they invented. Now they have all been proven to have been fatally wrong. So when you put those responsible for these crimes against the US economy up in front of the firing squad, don't forget to make it a bipartisan execution.

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  • 333. At 5:44pm on 09 Jul 2009, dianaatkin wrote:

    223. At 6:18pm on 08 Jul 2009, AmericanGrizzly wrote:
    "If Obama could have his way I suspect he'd prefer to be a secular politician while being president, but in the US one must have a 'faith' to meet the approval of voters. Quakerism may be helpful, the silent meetings would allow him to gather his thoughts without listening to half-baked unintelligent views on God and Jesus who is sold in the US more as a divine comet sent from above by God, rather than a man trying to do a job for the region in those days - if he existed at all" dianaatkin"

    So Obama by your reasoning is either a hypocrite or a liar. I mean if Obama doesn't believe in God. Obama must be a true politician, so which is it a liar or hypocrite? Thank you for clearing that up. Unbelievable.

    The above comment refers to my #214 post (Diana Atkin)

    I didn't say that Obama doesn't believe in God. In fact I think it's better to believe in the ethereal, elemental intelligence that is contained within the Cosmos and that the combustion of consciousness created rather than stupid, half-baked notions of, let's face it, either money-making, or self-indulgent crowd control that exists in US religions today and is used for sanctimonious, moralising claptrap by people, pastors and politicions.

    George Washington was indeed a secular politicion. He did not want the US to be founded on Christian values. The values were more masonic than religious. (See the dollar bill as well.) And yet so many Americans indeed believe the values of the constitution were religiously based. It would be so refreshing to see politicians take the leap into secularism while at the same time defending faith and their belief in the 'Creator'.

    I have a problem with large groups that operate at low levels, and I'm afraid that many 'religious' people do, due to the people that lead them. I've heard more prejudice utter forth from the mouths of church-goers than I have from non-church-goers and it seems to me that religion can become an ego trip of a mantle of self-righteousness. Christianity, or Baptism, in Jimmy Carter's case is most effective when it is demonstrated in deeds not words.

    Politics is a succession of trade-offs to achieve ends and it's a constant morass of lobbying and in the case of foreign policy a must-win situation. If you follow a 'religion' surely it will conflict with politics if you happen to be one. Enough said. What do you say?

    And yes, HM the Queen is the Defender of the Faith, while the infinitely compassionate and inclusive Prince Charles would like to be the Defender of Faith.

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  • 334. At 6:06pm on 09 Jul 2009, publiusdetroit wrote:

    Ref 327 MarcusAureliusII

    "If you have a practical suggestion, why not get involved? I have other things to do and I have no idea what should happen that would be best for them. I think that's for them to decide and work it out with the government. Perhaps we should send less foreign aid abroad and spend more of it on this problem. So what would you do?"

    I am involved personally. The very reason I have taken the time to respond to postings on this thread, and blog. I am not paid to do so. But, it is my duty to expose ill-informed opinions and long-standing misconceptions that support the also long-standing, stereo-typical image of the red people; and that the misconception that the greviences have all been successfully resolved in the 1800's.

    Just as the 'American' people supported the genocide; their support is now needed to resolve the problems created by the genocide. If you will take some, small time to look at even a few of the many tribal websites; you will see that the majority of surviving tribal nations are placing great efforts and tribal resources toward fixing their own problems from within traditional ways, that are being adapted to modern times.

    The tribes are still being stifled, mis-directed, and ill-treated by the U.S.government (which is "We the People...").

    The first step that the government of "We the People..." can do; is to stop grabbing land and honor treaty obligations.

    Secondly; recognize and negotiate through tribal councils created by, and supported by the tribal people themselves; not the special-interest groups and 'tame indians' the U.S. Bureau of Indian Affairs have instigated and support.

    It would be a positive gester to rename the BIA, Bureau of Native Affairs, or Bureau of First Nations; or something similar. Stop calling the native people "Indians". Indians live in India. Then renovate the newly named agency to represent the best interests of the tribes through direct representation within the agency.

    There are far more resolutions to the long list of grievences. Too many to enumerate here. But those suggested in this post would be a good starting point.

    BTW. Keep supporting native casinos:-)

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  • 335. At 6:23pm on 09 Jul 2009, publiusdetroit wrote:

    Ref 330 Gary_A_Hill

    "In any case, don't look to me. I am not responsible for the plight of the Native American. I had nothing to do with it."

    The Nuremberg Defence has been proven to be baseless.

    If you are a U.S. citizen; you do have a responsibility for the continuing plight of the native people. The U.S. government is "We the People...", no matter who your forefathers were; or what they may, or may not have contributed in the creation of the plight.

    The 'American' people ignoring the continuing problems as if it does not exist have not made them go away on their own accord over the last 120 years. Educating yourself (by means of reputable resources) to the on-going plight before offering ill-informed opinions will stand you in good stead.

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  • 336. At 6:27pm on 09 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    Diana,

    • "I didn't say that Obama doesn't believe in God."
    You'll just have to get used to folk putting words in your mouth. It betrays their intellect (or lack thereof)

    Well said in entirety!

    Sadly, too many religious groupings resemble political parties, especially in the less attractive features thereof.

    Peace and solidarity

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  • 337. At 6:34pm on 09 Jul 2009, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    # 326 seanspa wrote: [to "AmericanGrizzly"]

    "#325, AG, sometimes it's just best to shut up. Particularly when you screwed up."

    Very true.

    Or, as I believe someone else once put it, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove any possible doubt."

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  • 338. At 6:40pm on 09 Jul 2009, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 339. At 7:09pm on 09 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    I'm backing the Redskin!

    Go Publius! More power to your elbow!

    • "An Old Cherokee describes an experience going on
      inside himself....
      "It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves.
      One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret,
      greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment,
      inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.

      The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope,
      serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy,
      generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. This same
      fight is going on inside you - and inside every
      other person, too."

      The grandson thought about it for a minute and then
      asked his grandfather, "Which wolf will win?"

      The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed.""



    Nuh wah doe he yaw duh
    ("Peace" in Cherokee)

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  • 340. At 7:16pm on 09 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    publiusdetroit (#335) said: "The Nuremberg Defence has been proven to be baseless."

    The "Nuremburg Defense" was invoked by people who committed actual crimes, not by their great-grandchildren. This is intellectually dishonest argument, because you know doubt know what the term refers to.

    I am glad to hear "that the majority of surviving tribal nations are placing great efforts and tribal resources toward fixing their own problems", however.

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  • 341. At 7:18pm on 09 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    "If you are a U.S. citizen ... "

    I am, as are all Native Americans born in the United States, whether on or or off a reservation, today.

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  • 342. At 7:24pm on 09 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    Hesiodos (#339), that's a nice thought, and welcome back!

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  • 343. At 7:31pm on 09 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    I meant "no doubt," of course. This site needs the ability to edit posts.

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  • 344. At 7:32pm on 09 Jul 2009, seanspa wrote:

    I'd like to point out that Guinness addles your guts, not your brains. I should know, I've tested it a few times to make sure. I don't know what guiness does, though, beyond proving that you can't spell. Of course, I could be assuming things. Maybe guiness is a popular drink in another dublin.

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  • 345. At 7:42pm on 09 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    Justin (or the relevant on-line editor): Why has the title changed from "The Sarah Palin Train Wreck" to " 'Obama is a Quaker'"?

    Somebody remind me which continent we're at war with today before I end up in Room 101.

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  • 346. At 8:04pm on 09 Jul 2009, alphamiguel wrote:

    publiusdetroit.

    Thanks for your posts. Another thing that could be done is to replace the high sugar diet doled out by the Federal food programme with more healthy food.
    As the Lakota have turned down $1.3 billion for the Black Hills and the government has now frozen the interest fearing it will just rocket up to $2 billion and beyond at 5% interest,give them the national park up there that they have asked for.After all, who in America could look after it better.But like most things I guess by keeping control of it the government could drill for natural gas.There is always a buck to made.
    How about also educating the young on true American history, that would be novel.Something like what thanksgivng really meant.
    What about also giving them a national holiday to celebrate their culture.After all what has Christopher Columbus got to do with it in their eyes?
    Then there is the little matter of the billions allocated to the BIA that allegedly has been misappropriated(gone missing).
    Allow their language to be taught at school.I mean how petty is that?
    Erase from all documents any reference to reservations being referred to as prisoner of war camps.
    Apologise publicly on national tv for the sins of the past.After all the BIA have,so too some of the churches for their complicity in these events.
    Sign the UN declaration of the rights of indigenous people,after all it is a non binding resolution.What's so hard about that?
    Clean up the uranium damage by forcing companies to foot the bill and pay compensation.
    Could I gently ask Marcus and his ilk why none of this has been done? Me thinks there would be a difference if uranium had leached into the ground in Beverly Hills,si or no.

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  • 347. At 10:36pm on 09 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    IrishGrizzly wrote #$%^&*()*&^&%$#

    So you don't drink Guiness. Then what do you keep telling the bartender to bring another round of?

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  • 348. At 10:37pm on 09 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    344. At 7:32pm on 09 Jul 2009, seanspa wrote:
    I'd like to point out that Guinness addles your guts, not your brains. I should know, I've tested it a few times to make sure. I don't know what guiness does, though, beyond proving that you can't spell. Of course, I could be assuming things. Maybe guiness is a popular drink in another dublin.


    Guiness is good for you, everyone knows that.

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  • 349. At 10:41pm on 09 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    Uranium tailings and other hazardous waste are not problems unique to Native American reservations. There are hundreds of toxic waste "superfund" sites in the US. Those on reservations differ only in the political relationship between the US government and tribal government.

    Here is a link to the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) "Superfund" (web) site, and specifical to the policy as regards "Indian" reservations:

    http://www.epa.gov/superfund/community/relocation/policy.htm

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  • 350. At 10:44pm on 09 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    304. At 05:00am on 09 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    pubiusdetroitus;

    "If you were taken from your family at a very tender age and made to go to a foreign school where you were beaten and chained to a post whenever you mentioned the way in which your family lived; or how they expressed their spirituality; or mentioned anything about the history of your family; would you be so quick to judge the people of the reservations?"

    If the Apaches raided your caravan of Conastoga wagons, shot flaming arrows at it, burned it to the ground, ran off your horses, took your wife prisoner to become a brave's squaw, tied you to a stake in the heat of the desert so the fire ants would eat you alive, and then scalped you for their trophy room, would you be so quick to judge the people of the US Cavalry? "


    No a sensible person might conclude that driving Conastoga wagons, wheel barrows etc across someone elses land with the aim of stealing it was a bad idea.

    After all the "apaches" (an abusive term but let it stand) were not seeking to settle in New York were they?

    Moral? - People, be that Apaches, Palestinians, Irish, Laotians, Japanese and yes white Americans do not like having their land and goods stolen and their families massacred.

    Odd, but true.

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  • 351. At 10:47pm on 09 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    304. At 05:00am on 09 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    "The past is dead. Time to set it aside now, it is not real or relevant for today's world."

    This after stating:


    "She got herself so worked up you'd think the Union Army had marched through Georgia to burn down everything from there to Atlanta just a week before and not 125 years in the past."

    I do love it when a buffoon defeats their own argument in their own posting.

    Saves a lot of time.

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  • 352. At 10:52pm on 09 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    301. At 04:01am on 09 Jul 2009, AmericanGrizzly wrote:
    "People are so afraid to think for their self. Government has become a enslaver of the human mind and the enemy of their people."
    Lee Roy Sanders, Jr.

    "I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholsome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discreation by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power." Thomas Jefferson

    Thomas Jefferson who owned and sold slaves and may have systematically raped one of them.

    Yes he knew all about liberty.

    But some believe: "War is Peace
    Freedom is Slavery
    Ignorance is Strength"

    "These three slogans of the Party were engraved on the
    Ministry of Truth building." George Orwell 1984

    We really need to discuss ideas, not goosestep into the future. Okay bring on the personal attacks, again."


    Hmmm but the problem is Orwell was a proclaimed socialist. So quoting him makes you look very silly since you seem to reject any form of statism.

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  • 353. At 11:06pm on 09 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    330. At 4:39pm on 09 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:
    publiusDetroit (#279) appears to agree with me, although it's difficult to tell with all the sarcasm. (That's one problem with sarcasm, it obscures the message.) The message is: don't look to the "white man" for the answer -- the answer is within.

    In any case, don't look to me. I am not responsible for the plight of the Native American. I had nothing to do with it. My father had nothing to do with it. My grandfathers had nothing to do with it. My great-grandfathers I don't know about, but I'm not accepting any responsibility for their supposed sins. I have no more guilt for the European invasion of North America than I have for the Norman Invasion of England, which is to say, none."


    Really well that is good. But you do not mind benefitting from it do you?

    Racial prejudice, anti-semitism - I'm alright Jack!

    After all its great to be on the winning side, how dare the losers claim any rights.

    The point is the injustices wrought on the native Americans continue to effect their lives, and they feel this is wrong.

    No modern Australians "cleared" the Koories. But boy don't they live well on the efforts of their ancestors.

    The modern Koories of course live considerably less well. But hey you must expect that if you insist on existing on land others want, and stop complaining.

    It spoils everyone else's good time.

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  • 354. At 11:44pm on 09 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    Simon21 is one of a few posters here who like to make charges of racism against those who don't see things their way. I believe we are all one people. I would say the burden of defending against a charge of racism belongs to those who embrace identity politics.

    As for the winners and losers, they are all long dead, and I have ancestors on both sides of the fight.

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  • 355. At 00:16am on 10 Jul 2009, saintDominick wrote:

    Pawlenty will probably run, but he is one of many. You can count on Romney, Huckabee, Crist, Jeb Bush, Gingrich running as well. I think it is premature to country Sarah Palin out, and Hutchinson and Snowe may turn out to be excellent candidates for the VP spot.

    The GOP is not dead, it simply has to find a qualified and charismatic candidate and a coherent message that resonates with the electorate. My guess is that their strategy in 2012 will have little to do with foreign policy and will be focused instead on out of control spending, even if most of the spending is being made to correct the mess President Obama inherited from the Bush Administration.

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  • 356. At 00:28am on 10 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    354. At 11:44pm on 09 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:
    Simon21 is one of a few posters here who like to make charges of racism against those who don't see things their way. I believe we are all one people. I would say the burden of defending against a charge of racism belongs to those who embrace identity politics.

    As for the winners and losers, they are all long dead, and I have ancestors on both sides of the fight."

    Oh right so as I say as long as you are all right everyone else can go hang?

    Let's repeat the point the American nations are still suffering from the blows inflicted on them, the Koories likewise.

    When you destroy a people's whole way of life that has existed for over 20,000 years simply asking them to get over it is shall we say childish and halfwitted


    Or do you beleive the original Americans lived on reservations?

    And correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the US celebrqate independence day, rat on about its constitution.

    Isn't that all just history?

    Like Holocaust day etc etc


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  • 357. At 01:42am on 10 Jul 2009, Marylander wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 358. At 03:15am on 10 Jul 2009, publiusdetroit wrote:

    Ref 341 Gary_A_Hall

    "I am, as are all Native Americans born in the United States, whether on or or off a reservation, today."

    Full U.S. citizenship was not granted to the native people until the passing of the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924. Only 75 years ago. Whether born on, or off the reservation. My mother was not legally eligible to be a citizen for the first five years of her life, although her linage on this land goes back to pre-Colombian time.

    Just another example of the blockades set up by the U.S. government to deny the native people their "...certain inalienable rights..." and acknowledging that "...all men are created equal." as proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence.

    Ref 340 Gary_A_Hall

    "The "Nuremburg Defense" was invoked by people who committed actual crimes, not by their great-grandchildren. This is intellectually dishonest argument, because you know doubt know what the term refers to."

    The "Nuremburg Defense" as used in my post 335 has been broadened in modern parlance to mean that a person claims they are not culpable for the inhumane activities of the group of which they are a member.

    Example: "Yes I was part of the mob; but I turned my back when other participants in the mob deliberately beat defenseless people in their path causing great bodily harm. I did not participate in the actual beating; but I did nothing to stop it and continued to be a part of the mob. It was not my fault."


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  • 359. At 03:27am on 10 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    GAH

    pubius detroitus has gone the catholic chucrh one better. In their eyes, you are born into sin. According to pubius detroitus's theory, you were guilty even before you were born or even conceived. Frist the execution, then the trial.

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  • 360. At 08:13am on 10 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    359. At 03:27am on 10 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    GAH

    pubius detroitus has gone the catholic chucrh one better. In their eyes, you are born into sin. According to pubius detroitus's theory, you were guilty even before you were born or even conceived. Frist the execution, then the trial."

    Oh this is a catholic doctrine is it? I thought it was largely a protestant one - predestination etc?

    And who is being referred to? The native Americans, blacks, Palestinians etc who were assumed to be inferior to nice white caucasians like Marcus from the day they were born?

    That's being born into sin eh.

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  • 361. At 09:15am on 10 Jul 2009, U14064950 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 362. At 09:23am on 10 Jul 2009, _marko wrote:

    To Gary_A_Hill #354:

    RE: charges of racism

    I would like to explore what would actually justify charges of racism, a list of characteristics that would strongly indicate a racist tendency in a particular poster, conditions necessary and sufficient to justify an accusation.

    For example: acting one way towards one group in complete contrast to another group, avoiding or being unable to express any credible justification apart from a "feeling".

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  • 363. At 09:28am on 10 Jul 2009, U14064950 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 364. At 11:13am on 10 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    Sciurus 345

    • "Somebody remind me which continent we're at war with today before I end up in Room 101."
    Some on here seem to be at war with content


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  • 365. At 11:27am on 10 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    Dom,

    • "[C]ountry Sarah Palin"
    I like that! I can see her up on the stage belting out "The Last Moose in the Oilfields"

    Have you got a link, Kiki?

    Rastafari!

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  • 366. At 11:31am on 10 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    Looks like Kiki's been enumerated!

    A sad state of affairs.

    • "Paranoia strikes deep
      Into your life it will creep
      It starts when you're always afraid
      You step out of line, the man come and take you away

      We better stop, hey, what's that sound
      Everybody look what's going down
      Stop, hey, what's that sound
      Everybody look what's going down
      Stop, now, what's that sound
      Everybody look what's going down
      Stop, children, what's that sound
      Everybody look what's going down"



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  • 367. At 11:39am on 10 Jul 2009, dcwolff wrote:

    The "...lovely Meeting House somewhere around Dupont Circle..." was in fact a gift from a wealthy Rhode Island Quaker, built in 1930 for President Herbert Hoover, who was a birthright Quaker.

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  • 368. At 12:53pm on 10 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    366. At 11:31am on 10 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:
    Looks like Kiki's been enumerated!

    I do wish they'd stop this. I suppose they choose U numbers because they're ssneaking up and sinking people without trace? It makes everyone nervous, wondering if they're going to be holed below the waterline next.

    Especially as I've been 'referred' for 'reasons' that don't make any sense at all when I see what else often gets through. It's getting ridiculous.

    How many people have to point this out how many times? The number of contributors here has sunk to a real low point as it is over the last couple of weeks. By the time Mark Mardell gets here, therte'll only be two or three left. And there are no prizes for guessing which ones.


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  • 369. At 12:53pm on 10 Jul 2009, waltonmountain wrote:

    Marcus Aurelius @ 359
    "Born into sin"
    With our President still looking for a church, he is going to visit the Vatican today.
    Checking out a new religion for his family and himself? Maybe. Quaker is out of the question.
    To beg forgiveness for centuries old sins he inherited? Possibly.
    To beg forgiveness for the present day Bush and Cheney saga? Probably.
    Or just to get a message, any message through to the man above.?
    Handshakes all round. Yesterday Gaddafi. today the Pope and tomorrow Ahmadinejad and others?
    Our country, not without a spotless past has thrown a few stones, so today he prays for a new fix and a raincheck on avoiding any forthcoming punishment, needing all the help it can get.
    America is unfortunately on its knees, and Obama too. "A good chess player knows when he has been beaten and goes on to play a different game" Definitely.

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  • 370. At 2:05pm on 10 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    "My boyhood, and the Arab political culture I have been chronicling for well over three decades, are anchored in the Arab world. And the tragedy of Arab political culture has been the unending expectation of the crowd -- the street, we call it -- in the redeemer who will put an end to the decline, who will restore faded splendor and greatness. When I came into my own, in the late 1950s and '60s, those hopes were invested in the Egyptian Gamal Abdul Nasser. He faltered, and broke the hearts of generations of Arabs. But the faith in the Awaited One lives on, and it would forever circle the Arab world looking for the next redeemer.

    America is a different land, for me exceptional in all the ways that matter. In recent days, those vast Obama crowds, though, have recalled for me the politics of charisma that wrecked Arab and Muslim societies. A leader does not have to say much, or be much. The crowd is left to its most powerful possession -- its imagination.

    From Elias Canetti again: "But the crowd, as such, disintegrates. It has a presentiment of this and fears it. . . . Only the growth of the crowd prevents those who belong to it from creeping back under their private burdens."

    The morning after the election, the disappointment will begin to settle upon the Obama crowd. Defeat -- by now unthinkable to the devotees -- will bring heartbreak. Victory will steadily deliver the sobering verdict that our troubles won't be solved by a leader's magic."

    Mr. Ajami is professor of Middle Eastern Studies at the School of Advanced International Studies, Johns Hopkins University, and an adjunct research fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution.

    Interesting observation during the election of Obama. The crowd isn't growing. As every flood, eventually the waters do recede.

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  • 371. At 2:16pm on 10 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    "I didn't say that Obama doesn't believe in God." dianaatkin
    Thank you for taking the time to clarify. diana
    You didn't even have to attack me, LOL! My belief is just be honest. Don't sell out just to get elected. Now to shop for a church, because your Rev is a racist, just what took Obama so long? To detach himself from a church that obviously had this type of person is what bothers me?? I would like to see Obama's pc answer on that one. Because if he was white, he wouldn't have been elected. Double standard there.

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  • 372. At 2:19pm on 10 Jul 2009, american grizzly wrote:

    "Hmmm but the problem is Orwell was a proclaimed socialist. So quoting him makes you look very silly since you seem to reject any form of statism." simon21

    Orwell may have recognised the faults in this system. As power corrupts. So save your personal attack again. You can take your place back in the mob.
    I won't.

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  • 373. At 2:57pm on 10 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    Grizz,

    • "The morning after the election, the disappointment will begin to settle upon the Obama crowd. Defeat -- by now unthinkable to the devotees -- will bring heartbreak. Victory will steadily deliver the sobering verdict that our troubles won't be solved by a leader's magic."
    Well said, Prof. Prescient indeed, or just plain wise.

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  • 374. At 4:39pm on 10 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    372. At 2:19pm on 10 Jul 2009, AmericanGrizzly wrote:
    "Hmmm but the problem is Orwell was a proclaimed socialist. So quoting him makes you look very silly since you seem to reject any form of statism." simon21

    Orwell may have recognised the faults in this system. As power corrupts. So save your personal attack again. You can take your place back in the mob.
    I won't."


    Hey I didn't quote someone I had patently not bothered actually reading. Orwell even wrote a special US preface aimed at twits like u.



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  • 375. At 4:47pm on 10 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    370. At 2:05pm on 10 Jul 2009, AmericanGrizzly wrote:
    "My boyhood, and the Arab political culture I have been chronicling for well over three decades, are anchored in the Arab world. And the tragedy of Arab political culture has been the unending expectation of the crowd -- the street, we call it -- in the redeemer who will put an end to the decline, who will restore faded splendor and greatness. When I came into my own, in the late 1950s and '60s, those hopes were invested in the Egyptian Gamal Abdul Nasser. He faltered, and broke the hearts of generations of Arabs. But the faith in the Awaited One lives on, and it would forever circle the Arab world looking for the next redeemer."

    Oh right. Didn't happen to the Chinese, the Russians, US christians, South Americans, Africans etc?

    Pretty insulting bilge. The "a-rabs" of Egypt for eg. would like to get rid of their US sponsored "redeemer".

    "America is a different land, for me exceptional in all the ways that matter. In recent days, those vast Obama crowds, though, have recalled for me the politics of charisma that wrecked Arab and Muslim societies. A leader does not have to say much, or be much. The crowd is left to its most powerful possession -- its imagination."


    Might be worth defining what a crowd is and what the "politics of charisma" means.

    Oh and interesting to learn that all moslem and arab societies are "wrecked". Are all back societies "wrecked"? What about white societies - they ok, child porn etc. Asian societies are they wrecked? Moslem asian societies - wrecked as well?

    Specious 19th century rascist garbage.



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  • 376. At 4:57pm on 10 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    publiusDetroit (#358) "Full U.S. citizenship was not granted to the native people until the passing of the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924. Only 75 years ago."

    I was aware of that. And the thirteenth amendment, which abolished slavery, was only 59 years earlier than that. We are fortunate to have been born into more enlightened times, in my opinion. You are not going to succeed in trying to make me feel any guilt for any events which preceded my birth, however. Or for that matter, events which came after, but which I did not contribute to. My responsibility is limited to the world into which I was born, during the time I live in it.

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  • 377. At 5:04pm on 10 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    Here's a link to that noted advocate of "modern parlance," Humpty Dumpty: http://www.fecundity.com/pmagnus/humpty.html

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  • 378. At 5:43pm on 10 Jul 2009, alphamiguel wrote:


    Apparently July 8 is the 43rd anniversery of the Bennet Freeze that was imposed July 8 1966 that made up to 10000 Navajo poverty ridden.This freeze made it illegal to have access to running water, electricity,and to build new homes or have developement.It has been reported also that this freeze made it illegal to drill a new well if yours ran dry.Fixing roofs and broken windows was also denied.
    Thankfully Obama has repealed this act in May, but it is awaited to see the outcome.

    Now Marcus please explain the thinking behind this act, which I guess that you have never heard of,and further explain,what the so called white man in America would have thought of these restrictions being imposed on them.

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  • 379. At 5:44pm on 10 Jul 2009, dianaatkin wrote:

    371. At 2:16pm on 10 Jul 2009, AmericanGrizzly wrote:
    "I didn't say that Obama doesn't believe in God." dianaatkin
    Thank you for taking the time to clarify. diana
    You didn't even have to attack me, LOL! My belief is just be honest. Don't sell out just to get elected. Now to shop for a church, because your Rev is a racist, just what took Obama so long? To detach himself from a church that obviously had this type of person is what bothers me?? I would like to see Obama's pc answer on that one. Because if he was white, he wouldn't have been elected. Double standard there.

    ------------

    As I said, large groups operating at low levels because of the people that lead them could refer to the rantings and ravings of the pastor that was featured in all the hoo-haa during Obama's election campaign. Just for the record, the reverend was postulating that 911 was a result of the US's 'past' 'sinning' actions, but in a churchified setting it does no good and just whips people up. It was a political comment in a religious sphere which put simply is magnified in the war between (italics) terror. Al Qaeda et al use religion for their terrorist causes and the 'white west' has an inherent subconscious Christian conquering imperialist gene pool.

    If you're bothered that Obama detached himself from your above-mentioned church, what bothers me is that such an intelligent man was in it in the first place. It clearly was a predominantly black church, but so what, it's the tone of uneducated preaching that is so dangerous (again low level leading to low level groups). Politicians must divorce themselves entirely from one faith (which would stop huge fundraising from self-important religious groups to get their candidate in) and merely defend the right to worship. Quite frankly if I were God I'd ask the question: do they worship Me or their fellow men they've raised into deities with their own written words? To worship only God is a much more difficult thing - you value the art of elemental creation, natural elemental intelligence, you see how small yet connected you are to it and you serve life & humanity on Earth as best you can. The 10 commandments & do unto others are a simple easy way to do this.
    Peace & love to you.

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  • 380. At 6:16pm on 10 Jul 2009, smileytm303 wrote:

    Sorry to see you leave too, Justin. Looking forward to hearing you on Today via the internet (I live in Cali). Good luck with your son.

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  • 381. At 6:39pm on 10 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Alphamiguel;

    "Apparently July 8 is the 43rd anniversery of the Bennet Freeze that was imposed July 8 1966 that made up to 10000 Navajo poverty ridden.This freeze made it illegal to have access to running water, electricity,and to build new homes or have developement.It has been reported also that this freeze made it illegal to drill a new well if yours ran dry.Fixing roofs and broken windows was also denied.
    Thankfully Obama has repealed this act in May, but it is awaited to see the outcome."

    So you are telling me that during the last 43 years, 10,000 Navajos have not had acess to running water, couldn't drill wells, have electricity, build new homes, repair their roofs, their broken windows, or have development. And hardly anyone knew about it, it didn't make it into the press, and they didn't raise a public furor about it. How did they survive, on bottled water? And it was just repealed. Sounds like a golden opportunity for construction contractors and home repair contractors to earn some of that stimulus money Congress appropriated for infrastructure.

    And although I was only a student at the time it was passed and I never heard of it, pubius detroitus would say it was my fault. My god, all the benefits I've reaped from it over the decades and I never even knew it. How will I ever live without it.

    America bashers are really having to dig far and deep into the long ago past and who knows how much of it is just made up, exaggerated, or out of context that you guys cite. BTW, I think it was also illegal in Love Canal near Buffalo to do anything except get out...because it was polluted. And you can't build anything on land designated as a flood plain in New Jersey no matter who you are. Perhaps Britain would have had fewer problems if it had instituted the same restrictions.

    Can't fix a hole in your roof to keep the rain out. That's a new one on me. Oh how mean and black hearted America is. I'm surprised you haven't found a secret GITMO where they keep Native Americans who protested against it as prisoners all these years. If you can't find one, invent one so you can post about it.

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  • 382. At 7:11pm on 10 Jul 2009, alphamiguel wrote:

    381 Marcus.

    Your learning.Job done.

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  • 383. At 7:15pm on 10 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    President Obama does not have the power to repeal Acts of Congress, except by signing new legislation into law:

    Kirkpatrick-McCain Bill

    The "freeze" effectively ended in 2006 when the Navajo and Hopi ended decades of litigation. It seems they've learned the American Way of dispute resolution only too well. Perhaps they should have settled their differences the old-fashioned way.

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  • 384. At 7:27pm on 10 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    Marcus, I would add that we seem to be getting the Navajo point of view from alphamiguel. The Hopi might have a somewhat different point of view.

    Here's a link to a third-part view of the dispute:

    http://www.wannabe-anthropologist.com/wba_writing_navhopi.php

    It's somewhat out of date (2005), but still informative.

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  • 385. At 7:33pm on 10 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    381. At 6:39pm on 10 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    Alphamiguel;

    "Apparently July 8 is the 43rd anniversery of the Bennet Freeze that was imposed July 8 1966 that made up to 10000 Navajo poverty ridden.This freeze made it illegal to have access to running water, electricity,and to build new homes or have developement.It has been reported also that this freeze made it illegal to drill a new well if yours ran dry.Fixing roofs and broken windows was also denied.
    Thankfully Obama has repealed this act in May, but it is awaited to see the outcome."

    So you are telling me that during the last 43 years, 10,000 Navajos have not had acess to running water, couldn't drill wells, have electricity, build new homes, repair their roofs, their broken windows, or have development. And hardly anyone knew about it, it didn't make it into the press, and they didn't raise a public furor about it. How did they survive, on bottled water? And it was just repealed. Sounds like a golden opportunity for construction contractors and home repair contractors to earn some of that stimulus money Congress appropriated for infrastructure."


    Wow a place in the US without running water! How astonishing! Is it possible that not every single part of the US is like Beverley Hills?

    Surely not!

    Amazing

    "And although I was only a student at the time it was passed and I never heard of it, pubius detroitus would say it was my fault. My god, all the benefits I've reaped from it over the decades and I never even knew it. How will I ever live without it."


    A "student". Student of what exactly? This will be a laugh.


    "America bashers are really having to dig far and deep into the long ago past"


    No they just have to read your posts!

    A "student" my god the US education system knocked down in one!

    "Perhaps Britain would have had fewer problems if it had instituted the same restrictions. "

    No Britian has fewer problems because you live in the US.

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  • 386. At 7:36pm on 10 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    376. At 4:57pm on 10 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:
    publiusDetroit (#358) "Full U.S. citizenship was not granted to the native people until the passing of the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924. Only 75 years ago."

    I was aware of that. And the thirteenth amendment, which abolished slavery, was only 59 years earlier than that. We are fortunate to have been born into more enlightened times, in my opinion. You are not going to succeed in trying to make me feel any guilt for any events which preceded my birth, however. Or for that matter, events which came after, but which I did not contribute to. My responsibility is limited to the world into which I was born, during the time I live in it."


    Your relatives must find this disregard for their future very comforting.

    Take it you are not keen on the environment either.

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  • 387. At 8:28pm on 10 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    Here's some more interesting background. The aboriginal people in the four corners area were the Anasazi (now Hopi and others). The Navajo came later, from the north, and now completely surround the Hopi, outnumber them about 25 to one, and dispute rights to the land.

    Does anyone else see the irony here?

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  • 388. At 00:37am on 11 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    387. At 8:28pm on 10 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:
    Here's some more interesting background. The aboriginal people in the four corners area were the Anasazi (now Hopi and others). The Navajo came later, from the north, and now completely surround the Hopi, outnumber them about 25 to one, and dispute rights to the land."


    Be carefull about assuming that cultural change, which survives archaeologically is the same as population change.

    The Anasazi are an interesting people and their contacts with the civilisations of mexico are fascinating.

    A coprolite found in one of their settlements contained human protein and modern native Americans had a great terror of the abandoned buildings.

    It is also theorised that they carried the wooden beams for their settlements abroad, rather than in file - no one knows why, though it may have had a ritual significance -another case of why it is not wise to assume everyone does things in the same way.

    As to the disputes of the Navajo and Hopi, there is no irony at all. Both are constricted by white invasion and consequently disputes will arise.

    It is theorised that some of the most horrific internecine struggles in SA, New Zealand and probably Australia were caused by bands fleeing white massacre and murder and trying to live on land belonging to others.

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  • 389. At 02:23am on 11 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    Dians,

    • "Just for the record, the reverend was postulating that 911 was a result of the US's 'past' 'sinning' actions, but in a churchified setting it does no good and just whips people up. It was a political comment in a religious sphere which put simply is magnified in the war between (italics) terror"
    I hear what you're saying, but I have listened/watched a number of Rev Wright's sermons, and I don't feel a church is an inappropriate venue for 'sermonising' or ethical/philosophical questioning.

    If you haven't experienced a "Black" Church, that is an omission to be rectified.

    Respect, and Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
    Hesiodos


    Italics,boldface, and links made easy




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  • 390. At 02:57am on 11 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Heeze odious;

    Are you suggestingt that reverennd Wright said it was a sin to allow Moslems to ever come to the United States at all and you agree with him?

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  • 391. At 03:26am on 11 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    No.

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  • 392. At 04:14am on 11 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Heeze Odious;

    So the sin was in not filtering out the terrorists among them to deny them access to the US the way we do now.

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  • 393. At 05:30am on 11 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    392

    How can you tell? They're the ones wearing keffiyehs or black turbans with grenades hanging from their belts, an AK47 over their shoulders, a beard and a suitcase with a small nuclear bomb or a poorly chicken in it?

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  • 394. At 12:14pm on 11 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    393. At 05:30am on 11 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:
    392

    How can you tell? They're the ones wearing keffiyehs or black turbans with grenades hanging from their belts, an AK47 over their shoulders, a beard and a suitcase with a small nuclear bomb or a poorly chicken in it?"

    The first thing "white caucasian (to use his own description)" MArcus would use is the colour of the immigrants.

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  • 395. At 12:29pm on 11 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 396. At 12:55pm on 11 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    392,
    No.

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  • 397. At 2:42pm on 11 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Heeze Odiious;

    So you are going to tell me that the terrorist attacks on the US were the result of white America's crimes against blacks over prior centuries and decades 7 years before America was going to elect its first black president? I know Reverend Wrong was crazed with hatred and bitterness but what is your problem? If that is your logic then I'd go to whoever provided you with an education and get your money back whether it was at taxpayer expense or out of your own pocket at a private school. Your teachers didn't do their job.

    Or maybe you will tell me it was for America providing Israel with the means to defend itself in four wars of Arab genocide and two terrorist uprisings to destroy it. And what was Beslam for, punishing the Russians for providing arms to the Arabs?

    Actually Osama Bin Laden told us himself why he attacked America if anyone cared to listen to what he had to say. It was because American troops were on the sacred Islamic soil of Saudi Arabia...protecting it from an attack by Saddam Hussein's army. Makes about as much sense as you do.

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  • 398. At 3:48pm on 11 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    397,
    No.

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  • 399. At 3:55pm on 11 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    397. At 2:42pm on 11 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    Heeze Odiious;

    So you are going to tell me that the terrorist attacks on the US were the result of white America's crimes against blacks over prior centuries and decades 7 years before America was going to elect its first black president? I know Reverend Wrong was crazed with hatred and bitterness but what is your problem?"



    Not as much as you with your well known issue2 with black Amreicans, palestinians, Native Americans in fact anyone who is not "white caucasian", like yourself.

    Really that last person to talk about bitterness. Like hearing a sermon on political tolerance from Stalin.

    "Or maybe you will tell me it was for America providing Israel with the means to defend itself in four wars of Arab genocide and two terrorist uprisings to destroy it?"

    Mayb it was applauding and encouraging the Israelis to kill, starve and ethnically cleanse palestinians.

    And what "terrorist" uprisings? Are you telling us now the Palestinians are Israelies?

    "Actually Osama Bin Laden told us himself why he attacked America if anyone cared to listen to what he had to say. It was because American troops were on the sacred Islamic soil of Saudi Arabia...protecting it from an attack by Saddam Hussein's army. Makes about as much sense as you do. "


    So it was Osama Bin Laden who orgnaiosed everything. yes that would be about the limit of your limited understanding.

    Do explain to us about racial bitterness again - that would be priceless.







    If that is your logic then I'd go to whoever provided you with an education and get your money back whether it was at taxpayer expense or out of your own pocket at a private school. Your teachers didn't do their job.

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  • 400. At 4:28pm on 11 Jul 2009, U14065984 wrote:

    For the record MarcusAureliusII is not a fruit cake, he hasn't found the right (or wrong) woman yet. He may possibly have problems walking and talking and probably still has problems with his bowels.

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  • 401. At 7:41pm on 11 Jul 2009, dianaatkin wrote:

    389. At 02:23am on 11 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:
    Dians,

    "Just for the record, the reverend was postulating that 911 was a result of the US's 'past' 'sinning' actions, but in a churchified setting it does no good and just whips people up. It was a political comment in a religious sphere which put simply is magnified in the war between (italics) terror"
    I hear what you're saying, but I have listened/watched a number of Rev Wright's sermons, and I don't feel a church is an inappropriate venue for 'sermonising' or ethical/philosophical questioning.

    If you haven't experienced a "Black" Church, that is an omission to be rectified.

    Respect, and Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
    Hesiodos


    Hi Hesiodos, I hear what you're saying as well, and in fact, why not ask philosophical questions such as Rev. Wright did. He was exceptionally brave and brutally honest to do it. The only problem is that it was a directive and eek!could it have been a valid one at that? But with a political statement it needs to become a forum for question & answer and education. My guess is that the Reverend does educate himself politically, and spiritually felt the point was well worth making.

    I'm sure experiencing a 'black' church would be so very interesting, the bit I'd be excited about would be the gospel singing & choir - you just can't beat it unless you equal it with hymns like Jerusalem. or Handel's Messiah. (I'm British) I just don't like being preached to as I'm against indoctrination and prefer people to be taught to think laterally and for themselves.
    Diana

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  • 402. At 8:59pm on 11 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    397. At 2:42pm on 11 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII

    Funny, I thought 'No' might be the answer.

    But do carry on with the 'New Letters of Marcus Aurelius the Second', I'm negotiating a deal with a publisher, and I've got a really good cartoonist lined up for the illustrations.

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  • 403. At 10:22pm on 11 Jul 2009, J_Karpos-Maravigli wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 404. At 00:39am on 12 Jul 2009, KRITGuy wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 405. At 01:54am on 12 Jul 2009, U14066905 wrote:

    "let me lay it on the line here in black and white: THE MAN IS A QUAKER."

    Is this just an Opinion?

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  • 406. At 03:12am on 12 Jul 2009, U14066905 wrote:

    read all

    http://www.urban75.org/info/libel.html


    now re read
    "let me lay it on the line here in black and white: THE MAN IS A QUAKER."
    thinking US president not Peter Sutcliffe

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  • 407. At 09:26am on 12 Jul 2009, U14065984 wrote:

    In my opinion Obama should become a Rasta, throw his comb away and grow locks down to his toe.

    I remember Marcus
    I remember Martin
    I remember Malcolm
    I remember Nelson

    RASTA PON TOP

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  • 408. At 11:31am on 12 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    Diana 401, Namaste

    • "I'm sure experiencing a 'black' church would be so very interesting, the bit I'd be excited about would be the gospel singing & choir - you just can't beat it unless you equal it with hymns like Jerusalem. or Handel's Messiah."
    I'm afraid that, moving as they are, Neither Blake (I'm Scottish (by adoption/wannabe)) nor Handel even come close.

    My experience of "Black" churches is limited to less than a dozen occasions, but the most memorable one was the funeral of a lady who had worked for my grandmother and latterly for my mother (both Daughters of the American Revolution). It was a "Goin' Home Celebration", with several choirs and several preachers, and we could have quenched a drouthy reservoir with joyous tears of grief - transformative!

    Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace

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  • 409. At 2:50pm on 12 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    simple simon #399

    You don't have to remind me that your heroes are suicide bombers you call "freedom fighters" who blow up restaurants and shopping malls to kill as many women and children as possible which you call "armed resistance." Nor do you have to remind me that those who plan their "missions" and equip and send the bombers surround themselves with women and children so that if they are discovered and attacked, these people will killed also to become martyrs to incite more hatred. You've made your position known for a very long time.

    dim kiki #400

    Is that your best argument? Why am I not surprised. I didn't think you could do any better.

    alphamiguel

    One of the more interesting things you can visit at the Mayan ruins at Tulum, at other Mayan ruins and probably in much of Meso-America is the huge pyramid they built. You can walk up its many narrow steep steps and look out over the rocks by the ocean where they threw their human sacrifices to be killed, their bodies smashed on the countless jagged rocks hundreds of feet below. But if you do, be careful, whether you fall over the top the where the sacrifices were pushed to or slip backwards down the steps, there's a very real chance you will be badly hurt or killed. It was part of their culture. Nobody knows for sure why the Mayans died out. One theory has it that they farmed in such a way that they created an ecological disaster for themselves that made them extinct. They may not have had the regard for the land those who romanticize pre-Columbian civilizations in the Americas tell us they always had.

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  • 410. At 3:03pm on 12 Jul 2009, U14065984 wrote:

    Mikey Dread At The Controls D.A.T.C. R.I.P.

    RUB A DUB

    Roots and Culture

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]




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  • 411. At 3:26pm on 12 Jul 2009, U14065984 wrote:

    Marcus Mein Kempf
    I was not trying to be offensive but was defending you (badly) for saying your insane thoughts and vision for the 'Aryan' race. Many speculate as if it was the shared views of other zealots in the ranks.

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  • 412. At 3:43pm on 12 Jul 2009, U14066905 wrote:

    Kiki riddim.

    Well said ,as for rank, They are.

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  • 413. At 3:54pm on 12 Jul 2009, U14066905 wrote:

    409 The point about those cultures is they learned from their mistakes. You seem to want to perpetuate them.

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  • 414. At 4:00pm on 12 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    dim kiki

    Since I am not of "the Ayran race" myself and might have been one of its victims had I have been living in the wrong place at the wrong time,why would I have a vision for them? Or for any other race for that matter? Race seems to be an issue Europeans are far more preoccupied with these days than Americans as our recent Presidential election demonstrates. Race as a factor in human affairs is becoming incrasingly insignificant in the way the overwhelming majority of Americans look at the world, myself included. You posting is highly offensive and gratuitiously abusive just as your previous one was which is why I hope they will allow it to remain seen. It will allow other people to draw their own conclusions about you, I've already drawn mine.

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  • 415. At 4:09pm on 12 Jul 2009, U14066905 wrote:

    Maybe the right wing idea that Obama starts earthquakes that is doing the rounds is behind the title change.
    414 all your postings are
    "highly offensive and gratuitiously abusive just as your previous one was which is why I hope they will allow it to remain seen."

    When it disappears we will know it was u.
    Seen

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  • 416. At 4:23pm on 12 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    uneducated doctor;

    "409 The point about those cultures is they learned from their mistakes. You seem to want to perpetuate them."

    I must be missing something here. Exactly what lessons did they learn? The Mayans became extinct possibly through their own ecological mistakes. Tough lesson. The Aztecs and Incas learned they were no match militarily for Coronado and his Conquistadors or Pissaro's soldiers and they were slaughted, their gold stolen and taken back to Spain. I'm sure much of the gold I saw in Toledo came originally from the Americas.

    What about those who lived in what is now the United States and Canada? They learned that by not allowing European settlers to build farms, ranches, towns on even a small part of the land or even pass through the vast lands they claimed as their own for hunting ground but instead confronted them with military attacks to drive them off, they were committing suicide that resulted in armies burning their villages, killing their people and eventually being reduced to living on reservations or if they chose to live off the reservations in the white man's culture. Clearly that was a disaster for them. What other lessons did they learn besides that? Several hundred years ago, there were believed to be an estimated 3 million Native Americans in what is now the United States. Today maybe 1 million. That's a tough lesson too. Do you think they will repeat those mistakes? They seem to fare much better building resort casinos like Foxwoods. They don't need hunting grounds, they can buy their food in the supermarket just like others who live here in the 21st century. It's also a lot easier than hunting for every meal. Leaves more time for other pursuits...like an education.

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  • 417. At 4:29pm on 12 Jul 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    uneducated doctor;

    I have never clicked on "complain about this comment" even once in all the years I've posted on BBC sites although I confess there were several occasions when I was tempted. I think if people want to make public fools of themselves, they should be given that opportunity and others should have the opportunity to see what inane things they say. So carry on with it, you won't get any complaints from me.

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  • 418. At 5:02pm on 12 Jul 2009, U14065984 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 419. At 5:24pm on 12 Jul 2009, U14065984 wrote:

    Marcus Mayne why have you got the hump. I was being nice, I thought you could take it as well as dish it out. Sorry if I was offensive but I thought you could differentiate between friendly banter (between friends) and hateful ignorant racism

    What star sign are you?
    Zodiac Signs

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  • 420. At 5:29pm on 12 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    • "I must be missing something here."
    Never! How unusual!

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  • 421. At 5:32pm on 12 Jul 2009, U14066905 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 422. At 5:33pm on 12 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    • "I have never clicked on "complain about this comment" even once in all the years I've posted on BBC sites"
    I have, and it was to ask that one of my own posts be removed because it was repetitive.

    You should try it. It might become a habit.

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  • 423. At 5:46pm on 12 Jul 2009, U14066905 wrote:

    416 You say they killed themselves?

    Genocide.
    They learned not to destroy all they hold, now they have also learned not to trust the white ways.
    Leave give them the chance to "welcome "you with their new overstanding.

    That whole post of yours is pathetic.

    Better call in Gary

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  • 424. At 7:28pm on 12 Jul 2009, U14066905 wrote:

    Looks like your call got through.
    No need to be a timelord to figure out what happens next.

    Innocent posts disappear.
    to be replaced by the words of those that fear the truth.
    Moderators should remember Off topic is not an excuse for moderating.
    There is no such rule.

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  • 425. At 7:30pm on 12 Jul 2009, U14066905 wrote:

    Has been referred to the Mods. the silly sods.
    they took the bait to prove their hate.

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  • 426. At 7:32pm on 12 Jul 2009, U14066905 wrote:

    Who complains the complainers.
    Who watches the watchmen.
    What happened to the truth.
    It doesn't take a sluth

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  • 427. At 7:49pm on 12 Jul 2009, U14066905 wrote:

    "So carry on with it, you won't get any complaints from me."

    Every time he says this line
    the posts of other and of mine
    get lost somehow to the thief of time.

    Oh Gary. that's fine.

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  • 428. At 9:14pm on 12 Jul 2009, reubenbsr wrote:

    Nixon's mother attended a Friends Church in Orange County, California. A Friends Church is not the same thing as an unprogrammed Quaker Meeting.
    The first Quaker President was Herbert Hoover. Friends Meeting of Washington, the DuPont Circle Meeting House Justin Webb mentions, was built specifically so that Mr. Hoover could worship there. The Meeting has a picture of First Lady Lou Henry Hoover and others setting the cornerstone for the building.

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  • 429. At 9:17pm on 12 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    The point about those cultures is they learned from their mistakes. You seem to want to perpetuate them."

    I must be missing something here. Exactly what lessons did they learn? The Mayans became extinct possibly through their own ecological mistakes. Tough lesson. The Aztecs and Incas learned they were no match militarily for Coronado and his Conquistadors or Pissaro's soldiers and they were slaughted, their gold stolen and taken back to Spain. I'm sure much of the gold I saw in Toledo came originally from the Americas."




    Yes the extinction of the native Americns ranks as a genocide possibly bigger than that of the so-called "Holocaust".


    But of course the killing was largely done through disease not firearms.

    "What about those who lived in what is now the United States and Canada? They learned that by not allowing European settlers to build farms, ranches, towns on even a small part of the land or even pass through the vast lands they claimed as their own for hunting ground but instead confronted them with military attacks to drive them off,"



    Like the jews of Germany did not feel inclined to "allow" aryans like yourself to steal their properties?


    Did the North American Indians have a military? Who were the NCOs, what were the pay rates?


    "they were committing suicide that resulted in armies burning their villages, killing their people and eventually being reduced to living on reservations or if they chose to live off the reservations in the white man's culture. Clearly that was a disaster for them."!


    Isn't genocide a disaster for everyone? Or only when white "caucasians" are involved.


    "What other lessons did they learn besides that? Several hundred years ago, there were believed to be an estimated 3 million Native Americans in what is now the United States. Today maybe 1 million. That's a tough lesson too."


    Cod statistics


    " Do you think they will repeat those mistakes? They seem to fare much better building resort casinos like Foxwoods. They don't need hunting grounds, they can buy their food in the supermarket just like others who live here in the 21st century. It's also a lot easier than hunting for every meal. Leaves more time for other pursuits...like an education."


    They can be educated how inferior they are.

    Black Americans, native Americans, Europeans (especially non-white ones), Asians, moslems - and probably gays, the disabled and women

    Marcus lives alone, which means his kind will become extinct.

    What a tragedy.

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  • 430. At 9:26pm on 12 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 431. At 10:27pm on 12 Jul 2009, J_Karpos-Maravigli wrote:

    I see you proclaim yourself to be the product of a Quaker education so it comes as quite a surprise where you get off pronouncing the President a Quaker. It seems quite foolhardy to be completely honest. The fact that the BBC World News website (http://news.bbc.co.uk/) deemed your quip worthy of front page exposure is further cause for concern. President Obama is a man of the world, who earned his degrees not from Quaker schools as you and I but from Occidental College in Los Angeles, Columbia University in New York City and Harvard Law in Cambridge, MA. He was also a member of Trinity United Church of Christ for 20 years until recently.

    Shame on you good sir, and for the love of Pete do more preparation before submitting your overrated blather to the hallowed presses of the BBC.
    Good day.

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  • 432. At 00:54am on 13 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    J Karpos-Maravigli,

    Have you got a more specific link? The one you provided doesn't go to the exposure to which you refer.

    Point well made.

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

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  • 433. At 04:33am on 13 Jul 2009, J_Karpos-Maravigli wrote:

    Hesiodos,

    The headlines change continually. Do yesterday's headlines match those on tomorrow's front page? I really wonder where you're coming from asking me such a question. Do you have any experience using the BBC World News website to know it is not a static entity? I found Justin Webb's editorial by noticing the headline, which is the title of this piece. I have to say I'm relieved the BBC has removed it.

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  • 434. At 05:44am on 13 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    417. MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    " I think if people want to make public fools of themselves, they should be given that opportunity and others should have the opportunity to see what inane things they say."

    Carry on by all means.

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  • 435. At 06:18am on 13 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    419. At 5:24pm on 12 Jul 2009, kiki_riddim

    Don't be misled by the half truths that two particular contributors here go in for.

    Marcus the 'non-Aryan' ("Since I am not of "the Ayran race" myself and might have been one of its victims had I have been living in the wrong place at the wrong time") is of course, trying to imply he may be Jewish so he can accuse people of being anti-semitic.

    However, not long ago, on another BBC blog, he described himself as a Caucasian of European descent. It happened to suit his purposes there, as it did elsewhere when he implied he was not white, either.

    He's a race unto himself, I suspect.

    "What race do you belong to?" " Eh? What race? The humanracel"

    But there's the small print in the agreement: "However, some applicants who fail to provide the necessary evidence of humanity may be refused membership at the discretion of the management."

    Sad, for some, of course, but there you are.

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  • 436. At 06:49am on 13 Jul 2009, bnrnouveau wrote:

    Wasn't Nixon a Quaker?

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  • 437. At 11:21am on 13 Jul 2009, Simon21 wrote:

    435. At 06:18am on 13 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:


    "Marcus the 'non-Aryan' ("Since I am not of "the Ayran race" myself and might have been one of its victims had I have been living in the wrong place at the wrong time") is of course, trying to imply he may be Jewish so he can accuse people of being anti-semitic.

    However, not long ago, on another BBC blog, he described himself as a Caucasian of European descent. It happened to suit his purposes there, as it did elsewhere when he implied he was not white, either."


    And of course the people he tends to depsise - native Americans (who apparently "committed suicide" by being massacred, one wonders if he takes a similar logical view about a woman's responsibility for rape), black peope, Palestinians, Arabs etc etc are people of colour

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  • 438. At 12:01pm on 13 Jul 2009, Scotch Git wrote:


    Aryann1 (in Nazi ideology) a Caucasian of non-Jewish descent.


    Caucasianadj1 another word for Caucasoid.

    Caucasoidadj1 denoting or belonging to the light-complexioned racial group of mankind, which includes the peoples indigenous to Europe, N Africa, SW Asia, and the Indian subcontinent.
    n2 a member of this racial group.


    Whiten1 a member of the Caucasoid race. 2 a person of European ancestry.
    adj3 denoting or relating to a White or Whites.





    N.B. One does not have to be a Jew in order to recognise and speak out against antisemitism.

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  • 439. At 12:25pm on 13 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    Kiki has been enumerated (again)

    RIP (and rise again)

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  • 440. At 12:34pm on 13 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    Git, Namaste

    • "N.B. One does not have to be a Jew in order to recognise and speak out against antisemitism."
    Nor is it antiSemitic to speak out against Zionism. Nor is it necessary to be a non-Jew to do so.

    Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace

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  • 441. At 1:25pm on 13 Jul 2009, Scotch Git wrote:

    Hesiodos,

    I never did thank you for the HTML link on #389

    I do so now. Thank you!

    (I very obviously need more practice on the correct spacing).

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  • 442. At 5:29pm on 13 Jul 2009, FDraytonJr wrote:

    I wonder what the Quakers at that Meeting House will do, especially the ones who have protested the wars? I read in some Quaker publications that some of the Quakers there have even been arrested protesting the Iraq War and the torture regime and Guantanamo under Bush. I know Friends of that meeting and they have told me the same thing.

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  • 443. At 8:38pm on 13 Jul 2009, mary gravitt wrote:

    You still don't get the profound effect that the Black Church has had on Obama. While you are down there in South Carolina, Mr. Webb visit some of the Traditional Black Churches. You will leave feeling your soul refreshed. Note how the Michael Jackson Memorial refreshed people of all races because it was in the mode of the traditions Black Church ceremony.

    All the time you spent in the United States hasn't seem to change your prejudices. You say you will miss the place, but what did you see of the heart of the country. You remind me of White people who live in the suburbs and are afaid to visit the big cities. They are like ostriches hiding their heads in the sand. They miss the American culture, then go abroad tell others that they SHOULD BE LIKE AND LIVE LIKE US hiding form our multicultured neighbors. White World can be lonely.

    I would not wish Sarah Palin in office if I were you. Didn't you get enough of Bushism for a life time. And if you miss Karl Rove, you have pleanty of Neonazis and Right Wing Parties in Britain and the rest of Europe. Remember the main event which brought Hitler and the Nazis to power was the American Great Depression. And Harry Bruiunus in Better for All the World: The Secret History of Forced Sterilization and American's Quest for Racial Purity (2006) will make interesting reading on the plane back to the UK.

    America is a complicated place. It thinks it is Exceptional, and this makes it dangerous to itself and to its neighbors because of it hubris. But we can always find friends who are just as bad.

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  • 444. At 10:28pm on 13 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    MarcusAureliusII (#409) "Nobody knows for sure why the Mayans died out."

    The Maya did not "die out." The Mayan civilization collapsed. The people themselves survive to this day.

    http://anthropology.si.edu/maya/presentpage1.html

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  • 445. At 00:41am on 14 Jul 2009, John wrote:

    Please enough of the Palin Bashing, we get all the time here in the States. As for President OBama a Quaker, no way, they are probably one of the most gentlest groups of people I know, and honest. I am not a Quaker

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  • 446. At 05:00am on 14 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    444. At 10:28pm on 13 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill

    "The Maya did not "die out." The Mayan civilization collapsed. The people themselves survive to this day."

    Why on earth give him yet another race or ethnic group to add to his extermination list? Be sensible.

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  • 447. At 07:32am on 14 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    438. At 12:01pm on 13 Jul 2009, Scotch-git:

    I think you missed my point. It appears to suit some people to make implied claims of any ethnicity for nothing more than opportunistic purposes.

    ("Aryan" existed in ethnography and linguistics before it became synonymous with just one racial ideology.)

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  • 448. At 07:44am on 14 Jul 2009, squirrelist wrote:

    447: Elucidation:

    "I had ancestors from both [Roumania and Hungary]. Frankly, they can kill each other if that's what they want for all I care."

    [MAII, from 'Lisbon: A Pandora's Box' 7.03pm 13 July 2009]

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  • 449. At 6:14pm on 14 Jul 2009, U14069209 wrote:

    Gary, I recall an ex-poster making the same point about the mayans in #444, although I do not recall you supporting the point at the time. Instead you wait until he is banned. Curious.

    You should be aware that repeating the same content as the ex-poster may see you reported and banned as well. We wouldn't want that.

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  • 450. At 6:30pm on 14 Jul 2009, U14069834 wrote:

    Get yourself back to work, you lazy excuse for a metal basher!

    There's rent to be paid, and I need a new frock!

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  • 451. At 01:42am on 15 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    Lame Smith 449,

    Isn't it amazing what excellent archives the blogsystem keeps? Better software than this frontend. It's even possible to find submarines....

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  • 452. At 02:02am on 15 Jul 2009, seanspa wrote:

    #451, you mean you can communicate with the dead?

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  • 453. At 02:19am on 15 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    Aye

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  • 454. At 02:24am on 15 Jul 2009, Hesiodos wrote:

    And the Un-dead, too!

    ;-)


    ("Peace" in Greek)

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  • 455. At 03:08am on 15 Jul 2009, seanspa wrote:

    So a pax on all your houses got lost in translation.

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  • 456. At 03:49am on 15 Jul 2009, U14069834 wrote:

    Hesiodos, You'd think that since our language (with a few bits from those copycat Romans) forms the basis of the so-called intellectual parts of Modern English, that The Greatest Communications Organisation in The Universe could handlee a few simple Greek characters, wouldn't you?

    Have you seen that lame excuse for a husband of mine? Zeus wants to talk to him about commissioning a doll or something, and we could use the dosh.

    Keep singing, old friend
    Aglaea

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  • 457. At 05:12am on 15 Jul 2009, U14070340 wrote:

    "444. At 10:28pm on 13 Jul 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:
    MarcusAureliusII (#409) "Nobody knows for sure why the Mayans died out."

    The Maya did not "die out." The Mayan civilization collapsed. The people themselves survive to this day.

    http://anthropology.si.edu/maya/presentpage1.html"



    421 "Marcus they did not become extinct. The culture that failed them did though.

    Bring on Gary"

    Though the BBC purges all records, the original poster has decided to mirror his posts here and left them where we could all see them. If you know where to look.

    He claims this is not the first time you have done this and suggests you maybe jealous.


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  • 458. At 09:25am on 15 Jul 2009, U14069953 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 459. At 6:11pm on 15 Jul 2009, lordbeacher wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 460. At 6:18pm on 15 Jul 2009, U14070340 wrote:

    Mods if that funny you print racist remarks blatant no excuses no other way of taking it racist remarks.who is on duty at the moment? what part of YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW

    459 should have been removed by moderators for breaking house rules.
    are is the house burning


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  • 461. At 12:47pm on 22 Jul 2009, sean33z wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 462. At 01:15am on 23 Jul 2009, U14070340 wrote:

    and yet again the moderators can't spot libel.

    I should send this to Ed randell who may differ. unless there is some evidence to this accusation.

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