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Obama aftershocks

Justin Webb | 18:00 UK time, Tuesday, 25 November 2008

Sorry to have become suddenly episodic - normal service resumes next week. On a trip back to London, the aftershocks of the Obama victory are still incredibly evident, even in a nation with plenty of its own politics with which to be consumed right now.

But nothing can compare with the glamour of the US. At one south London school, the children have set up what amounts to a shrine for Barack Obama - a table festooned with memorabilia and newspaper headlines from the day after. Even the Yorkshire Post is running erudite pieces on transitions past.

At dinner with a group of British MPs, one revealed that his teenage son - who had never shown the slightest interest in British politics in spite of his dad's profession - had texted him on the night of the election with the words "WE WON!" Galling, though dad took it in good part.

There is no doubt that the internet savvy of the Obama people will be studied by brighter British pols: the idea that American ideas and practices can be exported to the UK, boxed and ready for use as it were, is foolish and most people realise that. But the baby should not be thrown out with the bath water, and the baby is the enthusiasm, the involvement, the sense of attachment to a cause that the Obama team created.

It has to start with an appealing message and candidate, of course, but the building of the campaign is highly relevant to the UK.

This blog meanwhile asks a reasonable question (in the last sentence) - W is not going to resign but, given the gravity of the situation, perhaps it should be he (referring back to the Yorkshire Post piece) who goes fly fishing...

I keep being asked in Britain how close Obama and Brown will be. On the face of it, they share a similar outlook and a similar approach to the economic crisis - though this piece is an important reminder of why Obama will keep his distance. He does not own this crisis. He was not there when it was creeping up on us. He will be wary.

A good example is his obvious intention to rough up the big three US carmakers before (surely) giving them the cash they are asking for.

As for further clues to the Obama style and substance - this is the best overview I have seen of how it is already manifesting itself on Capitol Hill.

Comments

  • 1. At 6:26pm on 25 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    The Guardian piece shows exterme ignorance of the U.S not to mention a bias against Bush.

    To both their credit Bush and Obama are making the transition smoother than most have been in recent memory.

    Despite what the BDS sufferers believe Bush can not simply take off untill the 20th

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  • 2. At 7:32pm on 25 Nov 2008, TimothyR444 wrote:

    America is "glamorous"?

    Indeed?

    I find it very hard to believe that the anti-Americanism that has flourished in Britain for years will suddenly ease. It is very deeply rooted and widespread and takes many forms. One election will make little difference.

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  • 3. At 7:33pm on 25 Nov 2008, middlecroony wrote:


    Hope is sometimes all we have. Though I think Obama has greatness tendencies, every great man was not without poor judgement at times.

    http://www.greatdreams.com/lies.htm

    This is American Thanksgiving week, when we teach our students about how the "indian" helped the white man learn survival skills in the New World, gorge ourselves with non-pardoned turkeys, watch football, and usually engage in a verbal feud or two, usually with the inlaw who tends to agree with Bill O'Reilly.

    This has been a historic year, and I'm thankful that the unpopular perspectives of certain people, may have a stronger voice in todays society. We as a world can only hope that someday we will learn not to repeat these mega atrocities.

    http://www.elexion.com/lakota/gallery/wk/wk14.html

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  • 4. At 7:43pm on 25 Nov 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    It's a US tradition for the President to "pardon" a turkey at Thanksgiving. Obama's treatment of Lieberman is in that spirit, I think.

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  • 5. At 8:06pm on 25 Nov 2008, Desertann wrote:

    Yes, the appealing message and candidate were important. But don't forget, there would not have been the same drama without the equally interesting challenger-war hero and POW McCain.

    As for the excitement that our election elicited in the UK-there must be some wishfull thinking involved. I'm sure if the British were able to directly elect their Prime Minister, they would feel the same excitement that we did. Although, I admit, no one does "politics" with the same glamor as the US.

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  • 6. At 8:12pm on 25 Nov 2008, proles wrote:

    "Ordinary service" has already resumed, despite an episodic show election. Nothing much has changed now that the ersatz excitement and mock pageantry has subsided. For many, it never even began, as almost half the electorate took a pass on the sham election and there's excellent reason to see why now that Obama Copacabana is busy re-assembling the right-of-center Democratic Party machine from the unlamented Clinton regime. It's business as usual, all the campaign spin and sputter notwithstanding. While naive school kids in south London are giddily genuflecting to the populist image of St. Barack, the man himself is busy genuflecting to the foreign and finance lobbies that put him in power, arranging the biggest corporate welfare program in human history - with plenty of public funds still left over for AIPAC and such. "The internet savvy of the Obama people" allowed them to hoodwink a portion of the American electorate by 'throwing out the baby with the bath water' i.e. whipping up "the enthusiasm, the involvement, the sense of attachment to a cause" without even any substantive policy discussion, let alone any real change. It was all based on vaporous "hope". And they fell for it again, not only in Yakima but in Yorkshire! And "brighter" pols everywhere will rely on the same campaign sleight-of-hand to appeal to gullible voters and school kids. The Brown's and the Obama's and their ilk, all "share a similar outlook and a similar approach to the economic crisis" - to serve the interests of their corporate patrons and the moneyed class, at any cost.

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  • 7. At 8:12pm on 25 Nov 2008, frayedcat wrote:

    Interesting feeling, that "we won" - we the little guy, we the young, we the not-corporate, we the free, we the unbiased. The internet was used as a communication tool, a means, not 'the message' - but watch out - it's free and public now but maybe not for long.......

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  • 8. At 8:18pm on 25 Nov 2008, middlecroony wrote:

    As to the auto industry, i tend to agree with Michael Moores general plan that states if the auto makers are going to get a hand out than the government should be the one to dictate what is made. He advised for the making of more busses and trains for public trans. This country, at least where I live has horrible public trans, and that's a Chicago suburb. The way some think about public trans is funny too, like mostly it's a poor thing. I suppose we could build it but will they ride?

    I was in Edinburgh, Scotland this spring, and I couldn't believe the bus system there. Incredible, and most people use it. Never had to wait longer than three minutes for any destination, inner city or suburbs. I would rarely drive here if I had it like that.

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  • 9. At 8:27pm on 25 Nov 2008, ChangeOfState wrote:

    Because of the perilous financial situation in which the US finds itself and also because of the relentless bad press the country has taken over the last eight years of the GW Bush presidency, President Obama will move toward a more non-interventionist foreign policy by the US. That great country no longer can afford the role of World Policeman and shouldn't have succumbed to the temptation to assume that role in the first place. This new non-interventionist stance by the US no doubt will force the hand of the EU in terms of whether or not it will be willing to police its own neighbourhood (e.g., Russia, Georgia, the Balkans) and do something other than posture with respect to other world crises. How the UK expresses its solidarity with respect to this pressure on the EU will determine how close Mr Brown and President Obama will be.

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  • 10. At 8:32pm on 25 Nov 2008, JewsNunkie wrote:

    #2 TimothyR444

    Are you implying that you don't think fat people driving 4x4s constitues glamour?

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  • 11. At 8:37pm on 25 Nov 2008, mary gravitt wrote:

    The joy that the international community feels at Obama's victory only proves how well hated George W. Bush and the Neocons are all over the world. I just thank God that the people of the world have not confused Bush and the Neocons with the American peoples.

    We are peoples because we repersent every ethnic group in the world. Yet we get along, not always peacefully, but we have patience that we will and can overcome any adversity. This is why we can have elections that we all do not agree on, yet can wait 8 years for a change. This at times is our only virtue and salvation.

    We have been at war with ourselves for the past 30 years over religion and its place. Does it belong in the public space or in the private space of the heart. Should it dictate to the President, or should it be a guide for the conscience and the heart. For 30 it has been a weapon of mass distruction, destroying both the soul and body politic of the nation.

    Some want to establish the Left Behind nation. Others want to see life as a gift. Yet all want control of the moral values, and Few consider Ethics as the life blood of any democratic society.

    We democrats in the small d sense have won a decisive battle in electiong Obama. And if we do not realize it, the world does.

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  • 12. At 8:42pm on 25 Nov 2008, Mark wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 13. At 8:50pm on 25 Nov 2008, frayedcat wrote:

    I would be jubilant after fixing a urine-recycling unit too ! ...oh, uh..sorry, wrong article...

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  • 14. At 9:20pm on 25 Nov 2008, Jonathan Day wrote:

    Whilst I certainly agree that you can always learn from others, I'd be wary of learning much from US politics. It is bitter, divisive and dominated with egos far worse than anything the UK must endure.

    The recent election of Obama also demonstrates that glamour is far more important than substance. Whilst I am definitely left-of-centre, I am unhappy with the fact Obama's charisma and oration counted far more than anything he actually promised. Indeed, his 2.5 million job creation scheme is laughable in a nation of 300 million with unemployment expected to peak at 24 million form the recession - more than double what it was before. A ten percent cut, all he has promised, could be achieved by waiting it out. A fifty percent cut just returns you to where you were before the collapse, which again you could expect by doing nothing. A ten percent improvement would be a sixty percent cut, which is well beyond anything he has offered.

    If anything, the US needs to learn from the UK in politics - the concept of the House of Lords which owes little or nothing to the Prime Minister is vastly superior to the super-quango known as the Supreme Court, where the theory of the separation of powers has repeatedly proven false. Supreme Court Judges are appointed by politicians and can be removed by politicians. Congress and the President are also able to ignore rulings, should they wish. This is rare, but has happened. The House of Lords has decayed over the years, but as watchdogs go, it has many more teeth and a greater willingness to use them.

    There are some things the Brits can learn. The US only changed direction when the protest votes overwhelmed the Republicans. We can learn to adopt that to force Parliament to conform to the high standards we have a right to expect - but don't. We don't expect high standards because we've been willing to let politicians walk over us. Remember, the electorate don't get the Government they want, they get the Government they feel they deserve.

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  • 15. At 9:29pm on 25 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    TimothyR444

    I think it is the glamour of Obama that Justin Webb refers to - because he goes on to tell a story about someone sounds very like the son of a conservative MP. It would not have made a story for a Labour son to identify with the Democrats.

    The British (and many other nations) are fascinated with Obama. His life story is truly amazing and the strength of character which has taken him from an arguably very disadvantaged background - via education and commitment - to the presidency of the USA is inspiring to all ages, but especially to kids.

    There is a huge amount of goodwill out there and heaven only knows, America needs some good will at the moment. It probably won't last but the story of the black boy who grew up to be president certainly will.

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  • 16. At 9:44pm on 25 Nov 2008, sweetsmellofsuccess wrote:

    Now that you've left the USA for a little while, Justin, you might like to reflect that, as "North America" correspondent for over a year, you have yet to blog about Mexico or Canada, let alone actually visit them.

    If your Obamamania is slaked for a few minutes, maybe some views on the 110million people who don't live in the USA, but are still in your 'jurisdiction'?

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  • 17. At 9:54pm on 25 Nov 2008, washingtondc16 wrote:

    I find it somewhat amusing to read the British newspapers, blogs, and other news services. Their understanding of the complexities of American politics is shockingly shallow and, as the first comment suggests, often shows "extreme ignorance." It would be akin to writing about the UK and making no note of the differences between England, NI, Scotland & Wales, or assuming that the politics of London reflects the politics of the country. It is this provincial style of thinking that the British have for many years accused Americans of adopting, however it is far more evident in their own writing. The so called "glamour" of America is nothing more than distant perspective, just as a fight for a constituency in Sheffield might appear to hold political "glamour" for a person in Oklahoma City. In essence the writer of this post needs to adopt more of an M6 view of life while recognizing their M25 origins. To take the Motorway analogy to its logical conclusion, will the Obama administration provide the Tebay Services or the Charnock Richard Services of political administrations? Time will tell, although some early clues have been forthcoming.

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  • 18. At 10:17pm on 25 Nov 2008, missbluelady wrote:

    Where are all those people who said we were to racist of a country to elect a blackman? Most of you do not know America at all!

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  • 19. At 10:28pm on 25 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #8

    You are really taking seriosly a docu liar like Michael Moore.

    His films have been exposed as frauds.

    As far as the big 3 let them go bankrupt, that it will allow them to cut fat and break the Union contract and I hope destroy the parasitic UAW.

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  • 20. At 10:44pm on 25 Nov 2008, possumpam wrote:

    No 6

    Here's hoping " proles " that it's you that's been hoodwinked by Obama's post election manoeuvres - especially the unwelcome return
    of the Clintons to the White House. But wait and see. No good trying to guess the outcome. Have a little patience and in due course all will
    become plain.

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  • 21. At 11:00pm on 25 Nov 2008, NoRashDecisions wrote:

    O come now Justin! Don't suggest that "American ideas" can't be transported to the UK! They're all the same in the west! As a matter of fact, they're all the same right around the world!! All people want good education, health care, safe neighborhoods, friendly world etc etc etc, and in Democricies usually vote for the candidate/party whom they believe will most likely keep their promises made. So there is no "packeging up" required!!

    As regards Obama and Brown's closeness, I think Obama will be in the right (if he in fact does choos) to somewhat distance himself from Brown. Not only are their positions in terms of relation to the financial crisis worlds apart as the Tellegraph piece correctly noted, but Brown has it seems to me been increasingly offensive to the US since this crisis began and worsened, with his seaseless need to take every opertunity to remind us all every time the crisis has come up in conversation of where it originated (as if we either don't know, or could possibly forget!) And not just that, but I actually heard him mention this week (twice) to Conservitive leaders durin Prime Minister's Questions, that "Even the American regulators admit it (the financial crisis) started in America." As if to acuse American leaders/regulators of not admiting their mistakes!!! Not one person to my knoledge has ever, ever, ever denied that the crisis (the most recent and painful part of it at least) started in America!! Not one! Not even president Bush! And he for some reason feels the need to go and make these false acusations? So I think that given these facts and recent developments, it best for Obama to keep his distance, or at least ask Brown to clarify what he ment by some of his more recent statements.


    And finally, I agree that it is frustrating that we have to wait another two months before we can have a real new president, but to answer your blogger's question, the reason why Obama can't take over now is because it is explisitly written out in the constitution when a president takes the oath of office. So unless a congressman would like to put a bill before congress amending the constitution to move the inaugration date up which must, by the way, be passed by a two thirds majority in both houses (and you can guess what the likelyhood of something like that happening,) I doubt that the inaugration date will change anytime soon. My appologese.

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  • 22. At 11:07pm on 25 Nov 2008, ladycm wrote:

    4. At 7:43pm on 25 Nov 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:
    "It's a US tradition for the President to "pardon" a turkey at Thanksgiving. Obama's treatment of Lieberman is in that spirit, I think."

    -ha!

    I am optimistic about Obama. He is doing a good job a building what seems to be a good cabinet. As far as our reputation as the U.S. and U.S. citizens goes...that remains to be seen. I hope we can be seen as more of a world player rather than the "cowboy" politics of the last 8 years. Also, citizens of other countries need to do their best to keep and open mind about American citizens. We chose the candidate that we thought could bring the most change now, give us a chance. If we want to move forward we need to try to understand each others differences instead of constantly pointing the finger at each other.

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  • 23. At 11:41pm on 25 Nov 2008, Blue till I die wrote:

    Putting aside the sheer fact that an African American will be in the White House are you not being a little naive.

    I remember a suave, smooth talking, personable individual sweeping through British Politics to much acclaim. Surely we have exported this trait to the US not the other way around.

    I just hope that President elect Obama does not turn out to be as two faced and as smarmy as Blair in the years to come.

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  • 24. At 00:00am on 26 Nov 2008, dsanthony wrote:

    As an American, I'm a bit annoyed by the superficiality of Obama's support in Europe and the UK. I don't know enough about internal UK politics to make anything but broad judgements, but I would not say that you should elect a PM of Indian descent because of the years you "enslaved" that nation. So, I'm rightly annoyed when people from Europe are shouting about the righteousness of Obama's election.

    Further, the Obama campaign was a major attack on US democratic institutions, and I am afraid they might be seriously damaged. While media objectivity in the US was always more theoretical than factual, it was important that the media at least pretended to be impartial. In this election, the media was rabidly pro-Obama -- to the point they failed to do their jobs. Obama's ties to socialists, anarchists and black nationalists would have been enough to defeat any other candidate, but the media decided to ignore the story. Obama's ties to convicted felon Rezko likewise was enough to bar him from the nomination, but the media ignored that as well. The rabid attacks on Palin, coupled with the hagiography surrounding Obama, destroyed any pretence impartiality, and I'm not sure that impartiality can be renewed.

    American democracy is built on tradition, as much as it is on law. For over 100 years, no President directly used the White House for fundraising--until Clinton began renting out the Lincoln bedroom to big ticket donors. Once that tradition was established, however, it was set and sleep overs in the Lincoln bedroom are now a fixture of Washington politics.

    More distrubing, Obama's campaign intentionally allowed illegal contributions to his campaign. He disabled routine identification protocols on his website, which prevented illegal contributions and contributions from non-US citizens. If this event is not treated as criminal, as it deserves, it will become a new "Lincoln Bedroom" tradition, and all semblance of fair elections will be lost, for a long time and possibly permanently.

    Obama's friends, from Ayers to Flagler to Wright, are nothing more than Stalinists, who have called publicly for an undemocratic revolution in America--Ayers going so far as to participate in a bombing campaign to overthrow the US government. With Obama's election, they have (so far at least) succeeded in toppling some of the primary safeguards of our democratic system. It's hard to celebrate that, and annoying to see if celebrated in other countries.

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  • 25. At 00:44am on 26 Nov 2008, selfevidenttruths wrote:

    15 eighty:

    Nice comment ...

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  • 26. At 01:10am on 26 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:


    Report: Clinton Camp Fabricated Initial Obama "Offer"

    "Mrs. Clinton's and her closest advisers' turning a suggestion by the President-elect that she might, among other things, head the State Department into an "offer" and reports that she was agonizing over whether to accept it, did not please officials in Chicago, some of whom hoped that issues over disclosure of Bill Clinton's post-presidential record might block the appointment. But the former president's camp blocked that by promising to cooperate with requests for information and to accept limits on his activities, including clearance of speaking engagements abroad. Statements by the Hilary camp on November 21 saying that "she's ready" for the position but then backtracking, saying that some matters were "under discussion," typified the whole mess, the only snag thus far in an otherwise unusually smooth transition involving impressive choices--an object lesson to Obama (which he had reason to know already) that getting involved with the Clintons is rarely uncomplicated."
    Why am I not surprised?

    When you lie down with ...

    Peace and studying form
    ed

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  • 27. At 01:43am on 26 Nov 2008, selfevidenttruths wrote:

    17 washingtondc:

    As an Englishman, I sadly concur with your remarks.

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  • 28. At 01:57am on 26 Nov 2008, richardslessor wrote:

    Surely it is high time the US rethought the transition period? It seems to be a strange hangover from a world where communications and the pace of life generally were very different.

    I'm in favour of traditions if they are helpful, and even if they are harmless - they provide a sense of rootedness and continuity in a fast-changing world - but to have weeks of uncertainty about decision-making in the world's most powerful and influential country at a time when we face a crisis of major proportions seems close to criminal negligence on a national scale.

    Barack Obama seems to have the necessary clearsightedness and objectivity to identify contexts where change is needed; for the sake of both America and the rest of us, I hope he takes action to reform the transition process before the next presidential election. If Britain and most other countries can effect a nearly instantaneous transfer of power after a national vote, I'm sure the US is quite capable of doing the same.

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  • 29. At 02:05am on 26 Nov 2008, hontogaijin wrote:

    @#6 proles:

    are not we jumping the gun a bit? the man hasn't even gotten into office yet.


    @american car companies:

    i'm divided on throwing them a bone.

    "In the district, people feel that this is clearly Congress caring more about people who wear Guccis than people who wear Levi's," said Rep. Thaddeus McCotter (R., Mich.). Rep. Candice Miller, another Michigan Republican, accused the government of "hand-delivering" money to Citigroup. "We're all sitting here going, 'Look, they don't even blink about rushing into save the financial markets all the time,'" she said. "We feel there is such a double standard."

    the double standard is that other economies are affected by the united states economy (at least here in japan they are) so when the US does well, other countries do well, and the opposite occurs when the US does poorly; however, while american car companies have been doing poorly, japanese car companies have either done well, or have responded and invested for the future. while time and time again the brass at the big 3 made terrible decision after terrible decision in their designs and planning for the future (of which spans back since the oil crisis of the 1970's) japanese companies have continually adapted and evolved.

    i didn't approve the rushed bail-out for wallstreet either, but there's nothing i can do about that now other than watch the money go to different companies and hope that they adjust. the big 3 should be forced to show some initiative and actually *gasp* have a long-term business model rather than a short-term "let's appease the investors" attitude.

    living and dying by the suv, and volatile oil prices, for so many years has finally caught up with them.

    where i'm divided is that i know that there are thousands of jobs on the line that i really don't want to see go. not that the big 3 would mind given that they've already cut thousands or sent them to other countries already to cut costs. regardless, the long-term effects of losing such an industry would be devastating to the united states. if the big 3 really want that money, then they need to grow up, stop pretending that people will buy american simply because it's american, and produce a quality product.

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  • 30. At 03:44am on 26 Nov 2008, Ron_in_Heartland_USA wrote:

    Incredibly, never a word is mentioned that, by far, Obama is the most pro-abortion and pro-gay president we have ever had. And Americans & the world celebrate together. Never a word of thanks is offered up to President Bush for keeping us safe since nine-eleven. You are on your own now, Europe. You might as well turn to Spain or France for leadership henceforth, because the USA has just joined their ranks.

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  • 31. At 03:55am on 26 Nov 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    Team,

    Before this thread degenerates into Conservatives getting angry about something, and the inevitable play of the zionist and Hitler cards (yawn), can we please take a step backwards?

    It's Thanksgiving. So let's give thanks for something.

    This year I'm giving thanks for:

    - Cable television
    - Democracy
    - The Fed
    - Press meetings
    - Italian Food
    - Fine art, especially Caravaggio and Van Gough
    - Cold Case
    - Football on a Thursday
    - The current AC DC Tour
    - United Way
    - Browning

    What are you giving thanks for this week?

    Pax Vobiscum

    American Sam

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  • 32. At 03:56am on 26 Nov 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    #20

    Dude,

    State isn't the White house. Inhale deep baby.

    Constitutional Sam

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  • 33. At 04:20am on 26 Nov 2008, kennyk567 wrote:

    By far the most unique and clever obama memorabillia I have seen is the Obama Model Airplane. An exact 1:150 scale replica built to be an exact copy of the plane use by Barack Obama in his successful presidential campaign.
    I think their website is www.obamaplane.com

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  • 34. At 04:27am on 26 Nov 2008, caroaber wrote:

    When you get through your aftershocks, I suggest you consider the enormity of this election in the U.S.

    The people rejected a continuation of the unjustified war in Iraq. They have concerns about prisoners being held at Guantanamo Bay for seven years without charges. They saw Pres. Clinton's "peace dividend," which took a generation after the war in Viet Nam to accumulate, squandered with reckless abandon in 8 years. Now we are in a recession, and we expect things to get worse before they get better.

    I do hope that Europe, Asia, Africa, South America and the rest of the world interpret this U.S. election victory in 2008 as a strong desire to change the course Americans have been following. We voted for Hope and Change, and I pray that's what we'll finally get.

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  • 35. At 04:27am on 26 Nov 2008, hontogaijin wrote:

    #30

    nothing is mentioned about pro-gay and pro-abortion because, at this point in time, no one should care about those particular issues (not that anyone should ever care about them, imo). there are vastly more important things at hand over feeling the need to dictate how other people should live their lives; which is, face it, exactly what those two issues do. the fact that you made that remark is actually borderline humor if i thought for a second you were being facetious.

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  • 36. At 04:54am on 26 Nov 2008, MatB300 wrote:

    Why in the United Kingdom is there an assumption that an Obama, or even a Democratic Presidency, or a Democratic Congress is good for us? Certainly it's more agreeable socially, politically and internationally. But I don't feel that Senator. Obama is going to be better for Britain in our Credit Crunch than Senator McCain would've been.

    Perhaps Brit's need to get a bit better at being selfish.

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  • 37. At 05:03am on 26 Nov 2008, Robert Bennett wrote:

    To try and show the preposterous
    nature of the political "SHOW" going on right now concerning Obama...there is NO OFFICE of President Elect. Obama will not even be President Elect untill the Electoral College meets. Then he may NOT even be an American citizen? Yesterday his funding was exposed for the fraud much of it was, the entire election looks more and more like a huge set-up than a true election. No one knows much about his real life, like where he was born? We all need heros but so much of this Obama worship is more like some kind of perverse, reverse-racism than knowing and sincerely respecting somebody. NONE of us even knows who or what he is yet? Oh, he's a talker and wants change...big deal, no one's very happy right now, we all want change.I believe we must give Obama a fair chance, if he is indeed a LEGAL candidate? So far it looks more like the SOS, and spending more funny money America does not enen have. Change? I don't see it it yet. A nice smile, a good suit and trying to ACT like a great president, in the real world, means nothing.

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  • 38. At 05:24am on 26 Nov 2008, OldSouth wrote:

    Increasingly(which should give us all pause), this looks like the Third Term of Clinton, or the Second Term of Jimmy Carter.

    Change we can believe in...more of the same...

    If unsustainable levels of governmental borrowing, spending, and imposition of its will upon the economy created the present economic snarl, how will more of the above serve as the solution?

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  • 39. At 05:33am on 26 Nov 2008, Neo Politicus wrote:

    "Substance"? Just what Obama are you referring to? He's a vacuous sound-bite wrapped in feel-good cliches. And the only "new ideas" he represents are isolationism and appeasement. Without the US, Europe will become a de facto client state of Russia overnight. Britain is alone in the world now.

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  • 40. At 06:08am on 26 Nov 2008, onithor wrote:

    Oh my goodness the telegraph piece of utter shit. They continue to parrot the idiot talking point of blaming the brown and poor people that got assistance from a Competent government program called the community reinvestment act. They, these "minorities" that got these loans are not what caused this financial crisis. Hell, most of them don't own subprime mortgages of houses outside of their pay range. Of the percentage of the amount of people defaulting on the home mortgages, only fifteen percent come from this program. Giving loans that were competently regulated to brown people is not what caused this problem. Giving out unregulated loans to every jack, jill, john, hakim, and rajiv out there that couldn't afford it is what led to the current financial crisis. Oh, and lets not forget that it is the governments that allowed these investment banks to put all their nuts in one basket by choosing not to regulate or deregulating how these loans were being packaged and insured. I reiterate, poor minorities had de minimis role in this.

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  • 41. At 06:38am on 26 Nov 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #2. TimothyR444: "America is "glamorous"?

    Indeed?

    I find it very hard to believe that the anti-Americanism that has flourished in Britain for years will suddenly ease. It is very deeply rooted and widespread and takes many forms."

    That's a very far-reaching statement. For most Britons, quite apart from her politics, the United States remains an enchanted land. Why do you think that American television programming, American films, American refrigerators, freezers, microwave ovens, consumables, fast food, cars, the change in language and the consistent popularity of holidays in America are all so attractive? If it were not so, would there remain an "American Bar" at The Savoy (when it re-opens) or at The Stafford? "America", "The Big Apple", "Hollywood" and "taking a villa in Florida" are all sheer glamour and Justin is correct in acknowledging that the nation across the pond is endlessly fascinating for the British

    You need to provide so solid examples of deep-rooted anti-Americanism before spouting such nonsense.

    #26. Ed Iglehart: Enough of the Huff Post Hillary bashing; it's never liked her and is no more reliable today than months ago. However, on the subject of the Clintons, this should rattle your cage.

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  • 42. At 06:50am on 26 Nov 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    #31, Sam:

    1. Smith & Wesson
    2. High Standard
    3. Fat Tire Amber Ale
    4. The little button on the back of
    Sears ratchet wrenches which cause
    the socket to be ejected
    5. 64-bit multi-core processors
    6. small-block Chevrolet engines
    7. The fact that states haven't figured out
    how to collect sales taxes on out of
    state purchases by consumers
    8. Women under 30
    9. Women over 30

    and, finally,

    10. The species, T-Rex, without which we
    would not have any turkey, and hence
    no stuffing.

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  • 43. At 07:42am on 26 Nov 2008, ladycm wrote:

    30. At 03:44am on 26 Nov 2008, Ron_in_Heartland_USA wrote:
    "Incredibly, never a word is mentioned that, by far, Obama is the most pro-abortion and pro-gay president we have ever had. And Americans & the world celebrate together."

    This is one of the reasons I voted for him. As far as the 9-11 comment, maybe he should have kept us safe before? Clinton does bear blame in this also but... George has decided that taking away rights is the correct thing to do after 9-11. I truely do not believe we will be any let me repeat ANY less safe then we are now. I am willing to bet on it, maybe even more once our elect is in office. I am not buying the argument that Bush has kept us safe and no one else but him can, or that only republicans will keep us safe. No way am I buying that crap.

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  • 44. At 07:49am on 26 Nov 2008, ladycm wrote:

    31. At 03:55am on 26 Nov 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:
    Team,

    "Before this thread degenerates into Conservatives getting angry about something, and the inevitable play of the zionist and Hitler cards (yawn), can we please take a step backwards?

    It's Thanksgiving. So let's give thanks for something.

    This year I'm giving thanks for:

    - Cable television
    - Democracy
    - The Fed
    - Press meetings
    - Italian Food
    - Fine art, especially Caravaggio and Van Gough
    - Cold Case
    - Football on a Thursday
    - The current AC DC Tour
    - United Way
    - Browning"

    Good call. I second you on the cable, thank God for that wonderful entertainment! Also, football...only if the Seahawks can stop sucking anytime soon...Doubtful.

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  • 45. At 07:56am on 26 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #42 gunsandreligion
    5. 64-bit multi-core processors.
    Dual core maybe, given modern graphics. After that the efficiency drops like a Credit Default Swap at a Mortgage Backed Security auction.

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  • 46. At 08:24am on 26 Nov 2008, TrueToo wrote:

    41. David_Cunard wrote:

    You need to provide so solid examples of deep-rooted anti-Americanism before spouting such nonsense.

    Anyone who has followed the BBC's Have Your Say through a number of topics on America could not have failed to notice the consistent anti-America hatred from the British left wing on that forum with the endless bile about "Bush" and the "neocons." But it was also broader than that, with people complaining bitterly about America in general.

    Now obviously that is not comprehensive evidence of widespread anti-American feeling among the British, but it's a piece of the puzzle. Another piece is the BBC's extraordinary anti-Americanism, so evident in fact that Tony Blair commented on it.

    Now with Obama's choice of a team to help him lead America, we see many lefty Brits scratching their heads in puzzlement and disappointment at the balanced and reasoned appointments, which appear to be designed, in part at least, to heal bitter political divisions and find the best team for the job. No doubt they expected him to go as far left as he possibly could in his choices.

    Robin Aitken, ex-BBC journalist, revealed that there was a poster of Bush as Hitler up in the impartial BBC newsroom, of all places. To what extent is the BBC's anti-Americanism simply a disdainful aversion to the Christian, pro-life, all-American right? And has a poster of Obama as the messiah already replaced that of Bush?

    I guess the jury will be out for some time on that one.

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  • 47. At 08:45am on 26 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    David C @ 41.

    If Arianna has been looking forward to becoming Ambassador to London, she is maybe not too keen on finding that Hillary will be her boss (especially after some of Huffpo's contributions in the primaries).

    Not part of the plan at all .......

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  • 48. At 08:47am on 26 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #758 (previous thread) TrueToo
    The interesting thing about the comments so far on this thread is that they are evidence of two cultures struggling for expression in the USA.

    They seem to put religious, conservative, individualists against syndicalist, socialist centrists - although of course there are overlaps all over the place.

    The point is that these are cultures, not just political ideologies. Their strongest adherents believe that one is the nemesis of the other. Perhaps they're right.

    It's also interesting the way American presidential candidates (not least Barack Obama and John McCain) have to try and embrace both cultures - since these cultures are so inimical, with invariably limited success. All this accompanied by jibes from the opposing culture about 'pandering to...' the left; Christian right; pro-lifers; unions, whomever.

    The reason for the reference to #758 in the previous thread is the cultural difference between western culture and the culture of muslim cultures with Sharia law.

    I have seen several documentaries (Channel 4 put a lot of time into it) about Iran, specifically the way the law is administered. It is generally very relaxed and informal - note that even in the horrifying case we discussed on the previous thread, the woman got close enough to the judge to hit him with her shoe.

    The major flaw illuminated by TrueToo was that a patriarchal culture discriminates against women. This is culturally understood which makes is 'fair', i.e. 'that is the system' and everyone knows it.

    In the same way, western legal systems discriminate against the poor. 'that is the system' and everyone knows it.

    In the soviet system, the legal system discriminated against the political dissident, 'that is the system' (well, it was).

    These cultural differences make many of the deep-rooted problems the world has. It will be interesting to see how they are resolved in the USA. It looked as though they had already by Bill Clinton's 'Third Way'. That may have been more superficial than it first seemed.

    I believe they have been largely resolved in the UK - I hope so. We used to be the home of 'class warriors' (like my father) and 'vested interests' who all wore the same ties.

    It's hard to imagine a politician being elected in the UK now who was so powerfully representative of a political / social culture - as Barack Obama is - that he would be seen as the Messiah by some and Satan by others.

    I don't think that is because there are no such politicians in the UK, I like to believe it is because there are no such cultures.

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  • 49. At 08:48am on 26 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 46

    Makes a change from the Michelin calendar.

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  • 50. At 08:57am on 26 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 48

    Chillo -

    Excellent !

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  • 51. At 09:23am on 26 Nov 2008, BuddySavage wrote:

    "Even the Yorkshire Post is running erudite pieces on transitions past."

    Is that so surprising?

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  • 52. At 09:27am on 26 Nov 2008, KAS1865 wrote:

    As America will ultimately suffer under Obama, Europe and Great Britain will suffer too, probably to a greater extent.

    The American Liberals elected a man totally unqualified for the role and as a result we will ALL suffer for it.

    US taxes will climb to levels seen in the UK, to pay for Social Programmes that will do nothing, even for those targeted by the inititives. Gas prices will continue to climb and those who expected something for nothing, after listening to Obama drop hints throughout his campaign, will be sorely disappointed.

    I see much of Blair in Obama, someone who trys to appeal to all while satisfying none, or at best very few.

    The Honeymoon is almost over before it began and already those here, in the UK, that wanted an Obama Victory are reverting to their Anti US stance which has existed for 30 years or so.

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  • 53. At 09:31am on 26 Nov 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    I find the attempt to defame the BBC to be typical of the tactics mounted against the Mearsheimer and Walt Study.

    Molly Ivins gives a brief overview on the CNN net.

    Anyone needing a URL, please speak up.

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  • 54. At 09:33am on 26 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 52

    KAS's comments are totally at odds with the steely, determined and articulate man who we see putting his administrative team in place - against the background of a failed and shell-shocked administration lingering around the White House in a prolonged death-throe.

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  • 55. At 09:36am on 26 Nov 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    # 48

    The idea that one possesses the unique truth and must force it on others seems to be a Zoroastrian heritage especially prevalent in the West.

    If the majority are obedient authoritarians, what chance is there of reducing political and religious evangelism?

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  • 56. At 09:38am on 26 Nov 2008, Gafgog wrote:

    You are right Justin. As I cycled through an grimy underpass between two tough estates in Cardiff after the election I espied, amongst the swear words and gang graffiti the words:

    'Well done Obama'

    It touched me that some kid in South Wales
    could be inspired by a politician on the other side of the world.

    I'm waiting for 'Good show Brown/Cameron'.
    But I'll have a long, long wait for that!

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  • 57. At 09:51am on 26 Nov 2008, thebean1615 wrote:

    I wouldn't say he is obviously trying to bring bully the automakers. It says in the link that you provided accusing Obama. That the money that citigroup got was from a 700 billion dollar financial bailout fund. Its solo purpose is to bail out financial institutions. Which is the category citigroup falls in. I'm tired of people constantly saying how Obama is going to fail. I mean for Christ sakes the guys not even the president yet and people are already busting his balls. I got an idea, lets save our judgment until he gets us into a war over some oil... oh wait. Until then, Shut up.

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  • 58. At 10:05am on 26 Nov 2008, Parrisia wrote:

    TOO MANY PROMISES, TOO MANY VOWS TO DO THIS, OTHER VOWS TO DO THAT, BY PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA.

    PROBLEMS ARE TOO BIG TO HANDLE AND THUS I THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND THE WORLD ARE IN FOR A BIG DISAPPOINTMENT

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  • 59. At 10:13am on 26 Nov 2008, TrueToo wrote:

    48. At 08:47am on 26 Nov 2008, chill0 wrote:

    The danger in the erosion of cultures is that it will create a grey, undifferentiated mass of humanity. With their throttle hold on education and social services, the irreligious social engineers of the left have already achieved this to a worrying extent.

    This ain't a good road to go down at all.

    I also disagree with the assumption in your comment that all cultures are equal. It is quite evident that they are not.

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  • 60. At 10:40am on 26 Nov 2008, The Notting Hill Hammer wrote:

    #24 DSAnthony wrote:


    Obama's friends, from Ayers to Flagler to Wright, are nothing more than Stalinists, who have called publicly for an undemocratic revolution in America--Ayers going so far as to participate in a bombing campaign to overthrow the US government. With Obama's election, they have (so far at least) succeeded in toppling some of the primary safeguards of our democratic system. It's hard to celebrate that, and annoying to see if celebrated in other countries.

    ..............

    It would be annoying, if there was even the the tiniest shred of truth in your allegations.

    The truth is that the bias you accuse the media of was not political or cultural, simply that Obama was a far more dynamic and interesting character than McCain. None of the people you name have ever been remotely "Stalinist" and there is no evidence that they have any influence on Obama. I'd say any toppling of safeguards was attempted and carried out by the Neo-Cons over the last 8 years, the patriot act being a prime example.

    Still don't let the facts get in the way of a conspiratorial "stabbed in the back" theory. The right do those so well.

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  • 61. At 10:45am on 26 Nov 2008, shrift wrote:

    MagicKirin
    your havin' a laugh aren't you

    Old Bushy hasn't exactly shown himself to be proactive in the Whitehouse to date but with the deadline of power-transfer approaching he has surprised us all by his flurry of activity to do what?
    That's right, I mean what would a pro-corporate kickback specialist do with only sixty days left?
    Repeal legislation that prevents drilling for oil in environmentally sensitive areas-great how bipartisan is that?!

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  • 62. At 10:51am on 26 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 58

    Is that Talk Radio shouting at us ? It certainly has a familiar noise to it.

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  • 63. At 11:10am on 26 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #59 TrueToo
    It is not my assumption that all cultures are equal but that all people are equal (barring mental hardware faults).

    Population growth among humans has been so rapid that evolution has not had time to separate us by physical mental architecture. We are, therefore, in cultural terms the product of our social environment.

    The evolution of ideas (I made a post about this many threads ago) is much more rapid. These social environments are undergoing many changes - perhaps to the 'grey, undifferentiated mass of humanity' you so dislike. I don't know.

    If you go back to mediaeval times in Europe you would enter a world dominated by religion - by Christianity. When Charles II was restored to the throne of England in 1660, on his return some people touched his robe to try and heal themselves of illnesses. They believe the king was divinely appointed.

    We have moved away from that world. In a way we have made a religion of science. Humans seem to like an overt belief system to make themselves feel comfortable.

    I believe that we are moving to human-designed humans. Conscious self-awareness has taken us that way. Through arranged marriage; contraception; genetic engineering and latterly prosthesis we are removing the random element from physical evolution.

    I believe the evolution of ideas is the future of the human race and it started with human expressions of consciousness.

    I have no idea where it will go next.

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  • 64. At 11:12am on 26 Nov 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    Cultures are not equal.

    However, those from a different culture need to rethink their justification for evangelising their own,

    Or for exterminating those cultures who do not share it.

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  • 65. At 11:25am on 26 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #59 TrueToo
    It is not my assumption that all cultures are equal but that all people are equal.

    Population growth among humans has been so rapid that evolution has not had time to separate us by physical mental architecture. We are, therefore, in cultural terms the product of our social environment.

    The evolution of ideas (I made a post about this many threads ago) is much more rapid. These social environments are undergoing many changes - perhaps to the 'grey, undifferentiated mass of humanity' you so dislike. I don't know.

    If you go back to mediaeval times in Europe you would enter a world dominated by religion - by Christianity. When Charles II was restored to the throne of England in 1660, on his return some people touched his robe to try and heal themselves of illnesses. They believed the king was divinely appointed.

    We have moved away from that world. In a way we have made a religion of science. Humans seem to like an overt belief system to make themselves feel comfortable.

    I believe that we are moving to human-designed humans. Conscious self-awareness has taken us that way. Through arranged marriage; contraception; genetic engineering and latterly prosthesis we are removing the random element from physical evolution.

    I believe the evolution of ideas is the future of the human race and it started with human expressions of consciousness.

    I have no idea where it will go next.

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  • 66. At 11:31am on 26 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    The reason I put up #63 and #65 is that I thought the moderators objected to the parenthesised phrase 'barring mental hardware faults'.

    I only put that in because although I believe those with mental hardware faults should have equal rights with other humans, they may in some cases have violently anti-human dispositions.

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  • 67. At 11:33am on 26 Nov 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    # 63

    The explanatory paradigm was supernatural, the animation of natural forces.

    Modern technology is also anti-evolutionary in that unadapted mental and physical types are enable to survive and reproduce.

    The evolutionary aspect is present at the same time- in that the process of selection is facilitated.

    The extrapolation of these two trends could suggest a World of slaves and of rulers.

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  • 68. At 11:52am on 26 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    NoRash,

    " As regards Obama and Brown's closeness, I think Obama will be in the right (if he in fact does choos) to somewhat distance himself from Brown. Not only are their positions in terms of relation to the financial crisis worlds apart as the Tellegraph piece correctly noted, but Brown has it seems to me been increasingly offensive to the US since this crisis began and worsened, with his seaseless need to take every opertunity to remind us all every time the crisis has come up in conversation of where it originated (as if we either don't know, or could possibly forget!) And not just that, but I actually heard him mention this week (twice) to Conservitive leaders durin Prime Minister's Questions, that "Even the American regulators admit it (the financial crisis) started in America." As if to acuse American leaders/regulators of not admiting their mistakes!!! Not one person to my knoledge has ever, ever, ever denied that the crisis (the most recent and painful part of it at least) started in America!! Not one! Not even president Bush!"
    Allow me to be the first. The housing price boom, over-use of personal indebtedness, 125% mortgages, etc. seemed to emerge here in the UK earlier than in the USA, and ran to greater levels of excess. House prices tripled in America while they quadrupled in the UK, etc. I agree that Brown's constant laying off of blame is indeed truly offensive, and does him no credit (pun intended).

    It may be true that the packaging of 'sub-prime' debt into derivatives began in the USA, but these practices and instruments were gobbled up with great enthusiasm by our financial institutions. They have been greedy, naive and criminally careless, and their only claim of innocence must be based upon incredible ignorance. It won't wash.

    Obama will be wise to keep several bargepoles distance from Brown, and in fact from all UK politicians.

    Peace and true prudence
    ed

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  • 69. At 11:55am on 26 Nov 2008, dceilar wrote:

    #48 Chill0

    Great post!

    #59 TrueToo
    I don't think there is (or should be anyway) a hierarchy of cultures. What do we do if there is a 'superiour' culture that aspires to destroy other cultures?

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  • 70. At 12:03pm on 26 Nov 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    # 67

    Another questionable assumption is that "adaptation" is always good.

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  • 71. At 12:07pm on 26 Nov 2008, dceilar wrote:

    #65 Chill0

    I believe the evolution of ideas is the future of the human race and it started with human expressions of consciousness.

    You old Hegelian! But what about the material world?

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  • 72. At 12:07pm on 26 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    David (41),

    "Enough of the Huff Post Hillary bashing; it's never liked her and is no more reliable today than months ago...."
    [the source is the New York Review of Books]

    As to Bill for the Senate, I reckon he's got better and more remunerative pursuits, and he did seem to be showing a certain lack of coherence at times during the primaries. Time to retire, methinks.

    ;-)
    ed

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  • 73. At 12:11pm on 26 Nov 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    # 68

    Ed:

    Perhaps you are illustrating the difference between a politician and a leader.

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  • 74. At 12:15pm on 26 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 75. At 12:27pm on 26 Nov 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    # 72

    The "confusion" concerning a possible HRC appointment illustrates that there ARE problems connected therewith.

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  • 76. At 12:33pm on 26 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    LadyCM (43), Well said!

    KAS,

    "see much of Blair in Obama, someone who trys to appeal to all while satisfying none, or at best very few."
    Here we go again?

    ;-)
    ed

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  • 77. At 12:43pm on 26 Nov 2008, DNAtheist wrote:

    The currently forming Obama administration comes as no surprise to me. It is attempting to reach across the divides of a fractured political establishment, presumably in an effort to find the broadest spectrum of appeal, and draw together as much common policy concensus as possible.

    Obama strikes me as someone who understands the nature of human unification, a concept that is so beautifully and eloquently championed by that bastion of future society, Michio Kaku.

    Humanity can be viewed as a "Type 0" civilisation (on the Kardashev scale) -essentially a bunch of petty nation states squabbling over resources (read: dead plants), and whose invisible, omnipotent, unfalsifiable guy in the sky is best.

    A Type I civilisation is able to harness all of the power available on the planet (in the region of 174 petawatts). In order to reach these illustrious heights (as a precursor to Type II & III) there will undoubtedly have to be a level of human unification on an unprecedented scale.

    The divisive and destructive policies of the Bush administration and members of the religious right will never assist the world in even striving for such a goal, let alone forging the path to attainment.

    The world needs leadership by the sort of people who fully understand that there is more to all this than just you or me, a tax break here, a petty war there.

    Further, the nature of equality needs to be better addressed and understood. We are not equal. We are different. But, we all deserve the right to be treated equally, fairly and justly.

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  • 78. At 12:48pm on 26 Nov 2008, HabitualHero wrote:






    We'll be fighting in the streets
    With our children at our feet
    And the morals that they worship will be gone
    And the men who spurred us on
    Sit in judgement of all wrong
    They decide and the shotgun sings the song

    I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
    Take a bow for the new revolution
    Smile and grin at the change all around me
    Pick up my guitar and play
    Just like yesterday
    Then I'll get on my knees and pray
    We don't get fooled again

    The change, it had to come
    We knew it all along
    We were liberated from the foe, that's all
    And the world looks just the same
    And history ain't changed
    'Cause the banners, they all flown in the last war

    I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
    Take a bow for the new revolution
    Smile and grin at the change all around me
    Pick up my guitar and play
    Just like yesterday
    Then I'll get on my knees and pray
    We don't get fooled again
    No, no!

    I'll move myself and my family aside
    If we happen to be left half alive
    I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky
    For I know that the hypnotized never lie

    Do ya?



    There's nothing in the street
    Looks any different to me
    And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
    And the parting on the left
    Is now the parting on the right
    And the beards have all grown longer overnight

    I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
    Take a bow for the new revolution
    Smile and grin at the change all around me
    Pick up my guitar and play
    Just like yesterday
    Then I'll get on my knees and pray
    We don't get fooled again
    Don't get fooled again
    No, no!



    MEET THE NEW BOSS
    SAME AS THE OLD BOSS



    "Won't Get Fooled Again"

    The Who (v.good British band)


    Except the dopey public (American, British, whatever) do get fooled again and again and again.........

    And they do it with a stupid grin on their face.

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  • 79. At 12:51pm on 26 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #68 Ed Iglehart
    This is interesting, especially since it dates from 2000:


    Market speculators using sophisticated financial instruments are having an increasing influence on oil prices. Could their activities bring about the world's next financial catastrophe?

    Rather touchingly:

    If oil prices are pushed to $40 and beyond by speculation - paper demand for non-existent paper-barrels - the effect on the world economy would be dangerous.

    Interestingly he is talking about confidence as the main problem:

    The extraordinarily good performance of the US economy in recent years has owed much to new technology, as Federal Reserve Board chairman Alan Greenspan never tires of repeating - and to public confidence in that technology - hence the astonishing multiples at which many of the new tech companies still trade.

    Dent that confidence and the pack of cards could collapse. Remember the collapse of World Online's share price? Not because the company had done anything, good or bad, but because the founder had sold shares at a discount outside the lockup. That is loss of confidence.

    I believe that's wrong. I think the house price bubble burst for pragmatic reasons - the market had stretched available purchasing liquidity beyond its limit, latterly through the means you describe - the 125% mortgage, etc.

    The loss of confidence followed the change in reality and amplified it.

    The technology that the article mentions Alan Greenspan as referring to is described by Alan Greenspan in this speech from January 2000.

    Alan Greenspan hardly mentions derivatives:

    The process of capital reallocation across the economy has been assisted by a significant unbundling of risks in capital markets made possible by the development of innovative financial products, many of which themselves owe their viability to advances in IT.

    The house price collapse does seem to have started in the USA. The sequence seems to have been US property prices fall; US derivatives cause the 'credit crunch'; UK house prices fall.

    The fall in house prices in the UK was not, as far as I can tell, due to the new financial reality in the USA.

    I believe it was because of articles like that in the Daily Mail cited above which caused a loss of confidence on top of the financial elastic which was propping the housing market up being stretched to breaking point.

    I would be happy to be proven wrong but the conclusion would be the same, we have to find a way to keep mortgages in touch with financial reality (ability to repay) or we will face endless housing bubble groundhog days.

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  • 80. At 12:51pm on 26 Nov 2008, Reuben wrote:

    Chill0 (#48):

    A very insightful post about the polarization of American politics.

    There was a time when there was very little difference between the two parties,
    and the choice between them seemed almost arbitrary, like Ike's choice to run as a Republican.

    People from both parties who resemble that remark are still alive, they just vote the party line out of habit.

    The extremists with their polarizing agendas have to be ejected from the Democratic and Republican big parties.

    Or you will see more and more independants succeeding where it was though impossible.

    Ed:

    Do you think you can avoid thoughtful discourse or eliminate opposing viewpoints through insults?

    ~scurius

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  • 81. At 1:00pm on 26 Nov 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    # 77

    Very good- but how to get there?

    Is it not possible that we have hunter-gatherer minds

    in a nuclear era?

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  • 82. At 1:02pm on 26 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Obama's airplane?

    ;-)
    ed

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  • 83. At 1:06pm on 26 Nov 2008, Was_I_there wrote:

    #52 KAS

    I hear that old prejudice stated loud and clear.

    I am a Chartered Accountant and did a comparative study in 2003 to see if it was cheaper - from a tax perspective - to employ in London or in NY. It beame clear that both for the employer and the employee NY was more expensive when all direct taxes were considered. We therefore employed in London where we could. (Like the UK the US has some pretty impressive indirect taxes too).

    But you'd not want the facts to get in the way of a good old-fashioned, prejudiced whine, eh?

    Isn't the question more: should taxes go up and will Obama put them up? Like most I'd support it for the ultra wealthy. I'm called a socialist for expressing that view state-side, but that is about as accurate as the muppet who called Obama's "friends" Stalinites somewhere else in this thread.

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  • 84. At 1:11pm on 26 Nov 2008, Reuben wrote:

    Ming (#75):

    While the Secretary of State's office is not located in the White House, it is a cabinet post that meets with in the Oval Office, and is the line of succession for the presidency.

    Many Presidents have previously been the secretary of State.

    The most disturbing thing about Hillary Clinton's appointment to State is her ruthless pursuit of power. Barrack Obama should know better than to apoint her to any position in the line of succession.

    One good result of Bill taking Hillary's Senate seat: it would keep him occupied enough to stay out of Barrack's way.

    I wonder: Can Condileeza Rice be persuaded to run against Hillary Clinton in 2012? Condi would be a better choice than Palin.

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  • 85. At 1:16pm on 26 Nov 2008, DNAtheist wrote:

    No.81:

    How to get there indeed.

    The postulation relies (rather heavily, let's say) on us not destroying ourselves in the process.

    Periods of great transition can spark great social upheaval and with nuclear proliferation and the oft stunted mindsets of those who choose draw their morality and direction from religious dogma (Bush apparently being a fine example; I have my own suspicions about Obama's alleged religious leanings, but he has the character of someone who may well try to keep religion out of his politics) the potential for distaster is as stark as the potential for progress and enlightenment.

    It will take steady and very well educated minds to steer us along the correct path. This potential transition is perhaps the most dangerous one humanity will ever face precisely for the assertion you have made.

    It comes down to the three E's, only one of which the UK Labour government got right: Education, Energy and Enlightenment.

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  • 86. At 1:25pm on 26 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #57 thebean1615
    ...war over some oil...

    Don't let the reality stand in your way.

    The UK and Holland were both in favour of the war so perhaps this is the payoff through some back channel for those big oil people.

    Trouble is, that ole democratic parliament the UK and Holland (oh yes, and the USA and others) put in place seems to be making a fuss about it.

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  • 87. At 1:37pm on 26 Nov 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    #84 Greysquirrel1867:

    "Many Presidents have previously been the secretary of State...

    ...I wonder: Can Condileeza Rice be persuaded to run against Hillary Clinton in 2012? Condi would be a better choice than Palin."

    When was the last time SoS made it to the top job? Surely pre WWII at least? These days its the VP post that offers the springboard.
    Also, 2012? 2016 unless things go badly wrong and if they do then Clinton is unlikely to take on a losing proposition, and if she did its far from certain she would be selected.

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  • 88. At 1:43pm on 26 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    Chillo,

    The 2000 report on Opec was interestingly perceptive because it was when the oil price soared that the scale of the financial meltdown gradually began to emerge.

    What would the meltdown be like at this moment if oil was still $140 a barrel ?

    On a more mundane point, television is as much to blame for encouraging silly UK houses as anything.

    Location, Location, Location is still encouraging people to buy at prices higher than they can afford. And only this morning I was alerted by a neighbour - because a house near mine was featured - to a breathless BBC programme encouraging people to buy wrecks for restoration under the hammer.

    The programme gaily reported a trebling of the estimated price for restoration of the property in question (incorporating some features which would fall foul of conservation area rules) which would cause it to be more or less unsaleable in today's market.

    This BBC programme - which was slanted purely to appeal to peoples' greed - was put out without any caveats or sensible advice - or even, in our current light, with any relationship to reality.

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  • 89. At 1:44pm on 26 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Chill0 (79), Excellent post!

    "I would be happy to be proven wrong but the conclusion would be the same, we have to find a way to keep mortgages in touch with financial reality (ability to repay) or we will face endless housing bubble groundhog days."
    I've already witnessed three in my almost 37 years in the UK. The present UK collapse may have begun after the US one was already underway, but the onset of the bubble was earlier, to my recollection. As you note, its collapse was subsequent, but not apparently consequent to the US collapse.

    Greenspan may have had little to say about derivatives, but Warren Buffet warned about them (and eschewed them) fairly early on. Thee word 'confidence' which appears often in your post is yet another form of 'credit' in its meaning of 'belief'. The whole edifice is built upon belief, a bit like the emporer's new suit - pretty useless in stormy weather.

    Sciurus,
    "
    Ed:
    Do you think you can avoid thoughtful discourse or eliminate opposing viewpoints through insults?
    ~scurius"
    I'm unaware of to what you refer. Can you cite an example, please.

    I too, remember when it was said that the Democratic party was a liberal party with a large conservative wing and the Republican party was a conservative party with a large liberal wing...the overlaps exceeded the differences, and the loyalties were largely regional/historical - The Democrats had the deep south and the Republicans dominated New England - my age is showing.

    And, returning to "confidence",
    "I. The time will soon come when we will not be able to remember the horrors of September 11 without remembering also the unquestioning technological and economic optimism that ended on that day.

    II. This optimism rested on the proposition that we were living in a "new world order" and a "new economy" that would "grow" on and on, bringing a prosperity of which every new increment would be "unprecedented".

    III. The dominant politicians, corporate officers, and investors who believed this proposition did not acknowledge that the prosperity was limited to a tiny percent of the world's people, and to an ever smaller number of people even in the United States; that it was founded upon the oppressive labor of poor people all over the world; and that its ecological costs increasingly threatened all life, including the lives of the supposedly prosperous.
    Wendell
    "
    Peace and a positive savings rate
    ed

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  • 90. At 1:46pm on 26 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    "86. At 1:25pm on 26 Nov 2008, chill0 wrote:
    #57 thebean1615
    ...war over some oil...

    Don't let the reality stand in your way.

    The UK and Holland were both in favour of the war so perhaps this is the payoff through some back channel for those big oil people.

    Trouble is, that ole democratic parliament the UK and Holland (oh yes, and the USA and others) put in place seems to be making a fuss about it."



    You are not seriously attempting to deny that the US controls Iraq's oil?

    You won't find Chinese troops patrolling the fields.

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  • 91. At 1:47pm on 26 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    As A Scot,

    "When was the last time SoS made it to the top job? Surely pre WWII at least? "
    I believe it was in the nineteenth century, as noted somewhere else on these threads.


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  • 92. At 1:50pm on 26 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    "59. At 10:13am on 26 Nov 2008, TrueToo wrote:
    48. At 08:47am on 26 Nov 2008, chill0 wrote:

    The danger in the erosion of cultures is that it will create a grey, undifferentiated mass of humanity. With their throttle hold on education and social services, the irreligious social engineers of the left have already achieved this to a worrying extent.

    This ain't a good road to go down at all.

    I also disagree with the assumption in your comment that all cultures are equal. It is quite evident that they are not. "



    And the inferior ones should be annihlated should they?

    Could you tell us the cultures that do not measure up in your own delicate eyes?

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  • 93. At 1:54pm on 26 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 86 ~ Hey again Chillo

    Sensitive point - although the UK Government may have been in favour of the Iraq war, a significant part of the population were anything but.

    In fact lots of us (whilst objecting on moral grounds) also foresaw exactly the sort of problems you are talking about today

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  • 94. At 1:56pm on 26 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Chill0 (86), from your linked article:

    "The state-owned CNPC had signed an agreement with Iraq's Saddam Hussein government in 1996, which was postponed by the UN sanctions on Iraq and the following US-led invasion to the oil- rich state."
    so it's just renewing old arrangements. And I must adnmit a bit of schadenfreude at the prospect of the Iraqi puppets yanking the strings of their supposed masters... Did the Dutch send any troops to the "coalition of the willing"?

    Peace and emancipation of marionettes
    ed

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  • 95. At 2:03pm on 26 Nov 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    # 86

    Some determined souls refused to look at the activities of Britain in Iran from 1918-1932.

    Oil and and bases were a major morivation- then as now.

    My take is the the Poodle thought to gain some crumbs of empire and a major subsequent remuneration by supporting the NeoCon plans.

    ______________________

    Incidentally, Ed:

    Avnery has some choice comments on that- did you identify your URL somewhere?

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  • 96. At 2:03pm on 26 Nov 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    #85 DNAtheist:

    "Periods of great transition can spark great social upheaval and with nuclear proliferation..."

    What's astonishing is that despite the proliferation not one nuclear weapon has been used in anger since 1945. In fact the real danger to the world may be where one side in a conflict posesses such weapons and the other doesn't, I'm sure we can all think of one such situation, since this breeds a certain arrogance, a sense you can do what you like without fear of retaliation.
    Of course we could turn all our nukes to peaceful ends ala Project Orion if the political will existed.

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  • 97. At 2:19pm on 26 Nov 2008, frayedcat wrote:

    I've always thought the US President's actual powers are fairly limited - even the campaign's are run on a "party platform". Isn't it the monied who really run things throughout history, whichever culture/regime/monarch/dictator is in 'power'...at least until they mess up so bad the people revolt and take the money back? It seems to me Obama may be a symbol of a quiet revolution against some of our current "money managers" ...Maybe this is the worldwide "we" rejoicing that he won.

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  • 98. At 2:20pm on 26 Nov 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    # 96

    Indeed, the possession of such a weapon by one side does breed an arrogance.

    A strong reason for getting such weaponry to Iran or for depriving Israel of them.

    See Avnery's column of 09/02/02 "The Great Game".

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  • 99. At 2:21pm on 26 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #95 Xie_Ming
    I have provided you with links concerning the activities of Britain in Iraq 1918-1932.

    If you mean that Britain milked as much of the Middle East as we could for oil, no question about it.

    So did everyone else in the western world who had the opportunity.

    If you don't mean that, you'll have to say what you do mean.

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  • 100. At 2:27pm on 26 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #93 eightypercent
    Ed Iglehart and I had a little falling out about opinion polls on the UK population's support for the Iraq War on a previous thread.

    Suffice it to say that whilst I do not believe the UK population was wholeheartedly in favour of it, it was not against it for at least a year after it started. I offered an article with an opinion poll from the Guardian to substantiate that.

    Ed Iglehart disputes that.

    Whatever the colour of British public opinion I would still have been in favour of the war for the reasons I gave on the previous thread.

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  • 101. At 2:34pm on 26 Nov 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    # 99

    Gertrude Bell and Uri Avnery tell similar stories- 80 years apart.

    It is a continuation of what used to be called "The Great Game".

    Iran, rather than Iraq, is now the centerpiece.

    try Avnery on zope-gushshalom for his article of 09/02/02.

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  • 102. At 2:41pm on 26 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Xie (731 on previous thread),

    "Have your queries elicited an explanation of why URLS such as:

    mideastweb.org (Plan Dalet, etc)
    kibush.co.il (The Occupation Magazine)
    Physicians for Human Rights (phr.org)
    Rabbis for Human Rights (rhr.org)

    should be censored and unnamed?"
    Are they censored?

    mideastweb.org (Plan Dalet, etc)
    http://mideastweb.org/
    kibush.co.il (The Occupation Magazine)
    http://kibush.co.il/
    Physicians for Human Rights (phr.org)
    http://physiciansforhumanrights.org/
    Rabbis for Human Rights (rhr.org)
    http://rhr.israel.net/

    We shall see

    Salaam/Shalom
    ed

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  • 103. At 2:45pm on 26 Nov 2008, DNAtheist wrote:

    No.96:

    Absolutely agree. It is astonishing.

    Interestingly, though the recent NIC report (America dminishing in power over the next 20 years, potentially more fractured world, etc) should be treated with the usual skepticism, the issue of squabbling over resources is likely to be exacerbated in the coming years. Again, leadership through common (global) concensus rather than swaggering and divisive (non-)leadership will have a major role to play if we are to ensure that the world doesn't go the way of post-apocalyptic wasteland.

    And then, of course, you have the plausible 'bringing about the religious apocalypse' scenario - another reason, on a very very long list, why religion and politics should not mix.

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  • 104. At 2:46pm on 26 Nov 2008, middlecroony wrote:

    #59 truetoo wrote--

    The danger in the erosion of cultures is that it will create a grey, undifferentiated mass of humanity. With their throttle hold on education and social services, the irreligious social engineers of the left have already achieved this to a worrying extent.

    This ain't a good road to go down at all.

    I also disagree with the assumption in your comment that all cultures are equal. It is quite evident that they are not.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    Don't worry about the impending "grey mass of humanity" just yet, your master race will live on for awhile. We can as a world try to come to some general human rights issues without disrupting the cultures too much, and if that means sanctions of a sort, or dissallowing entry into certain world unions than so be it.

    And to say that everyone that may be a bit left is "irreligious" is another absurd statement.

    Finally i'm courious to know which cultures you think are superior to others, and what exactly would you be willing to do to protect yours?



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  • 105. At 3:04pm on 26 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    For Xie,

    "The Great Game

    By Uri Avnery

    Some weeks ago, something curious happened: Israel discovered that Iran is the Great Satan.

    It happened quite suddenly. There was no prior sensational news, no new discovery. As if by the order of a drill-sergeant, the whole Israeli phalanx changed direction. All the politicians, all the generals, all the enlisted media, with the usual complement of professors-for-hire, - all of them discovered overnight that Iran is the immediate, real and terrible danger.

    By wondrous coincidence, at exactly the same moment a ship was captured that, allegedly, carried Iranian arms to Arafat. And in Washington Shimon Peres, a man for all seasons and the servant of all masters, accosted every passing diplomat and told him stories about thousands of Iranian missiles that have been given to the Hizbullah...."Counterpunch


    Peace and the end of oil
    ed

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  • 106. At 3:05pm on 26 Nov 2008, middlecroony wrote:

    Truetoo--

    Here are some of those horrible freethinkers in history. I'm sure they made the world a much worse place.

    http://www.ffrf.org/day/famousfreethinkers/

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  • 107. At 3:12pm on 26 Nov 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    # 102

    There is another blog that seems terrorized by mention of Rabbis for Human Rights, etc.

    One propagandist has discovered that any post complained of is automatically "referred".

    The moderator is apparently too intimidated to do other than leave all such "complaints" in limbo.

    The propagandist is then left a clear field.

    [I once saw the son-in-law of Paraguay's dictator (an editor) do something similar]

    But, truth will out.

    Have you found Avnery's articles on plans for the Lebanon invasion, etc.?

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  • 108. At 3:16pm on 26 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    DNA (103),

    "the issue of squabbling over resources is likely to be exacerbated in the coming years. Again, leadership through common (global) concensus rather than swaggering and divisive (non-)leadership will have a major role to play if we are to ensure that the world doesn't go the way of post-apocalyptic wasteland."
    Too true! It has been said the "All wars are resource wars", and this is likely to become even more the case, as world population grows by 219,000 daily towards nine or ten billion, with the privileged 20% consuming 80% (no offence) of the resources at present....how long can this continue?

    Peace and Sharing the Earth
    ed

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  • 109. At 3:20pm on 26 Nov 2008, The Notting Hill Hammer wrote:

    The comparative study found that the murder rate for young people was 36.6 for every 100,000 people in Latin America while in Africa it was 16.1, North America 12, Asia 2.4, Oceania 1.6 and Europe 1.2, although there are variations within a particular region.


    Hmm

    Its right then, Europe really is a terrible place to live. Must be all those guns we don't have.

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  • 110. At 3:21pm on 26 Nov 2008, watermanaquarius wrote:

    Truetoo # 46 wrote

    ......," we see many lefty Brits scratching their heads in puzzlement and disappointment ......"

    Sure you do! Possibly the whole of the thinking world. The lefties AND the righties. But anti-Americanism- hardly.
    A country - the USA had it all, and has succeeded in going from the top of the heap to fall towards the bottom over the last 30 year period. A country that now has third world levels for homeland education. a health system for all its citizens, obesity, teenage pregnancies, economic problems - In many negative factors -you name it and you are the tops, or happily make the top-ten of the worst. Forgetting the rest of the worlds ideas regarding the ecological balance etc and your simplistic statement of our disappointment in the choice of political appointments[ which is not true]. You, the electorate, and your last few governments have had their head in the middle eastern sand if not up an even darker place, and this is our big disappointment.
    Fortunately members of your society- some of the intelligent youth group, and some of the old codger group who had lived the dream have finally seen the wood from the trees. I wish it would happen soon to us too! The " fooling the people some of the time....etc etc " quote applies to both yourselves and us, as fellow countries in the rest of our "civilised world". Together, through "political correctness" instigated by self serving bureaucrats, or just sheer bloody-mindedness by the top decision makers, we are being left trailing behind in excellence of everything by the emerging east [ China, Japan and India] in so many facets that our joint cooperation is necessary to overcome this deficit of thought and input.
    America now has the chance to move from the dumb sports jock who metamorphs into the 6 pack couch potato and reclaim its leadership role. We will try, not to grab your coat-tails so as you may suggest, but to follow the best leads going to reach the level we both remember in the past. It is no quick fix so at least give your guy that was chosen a chance to start his work on the endless list of the problems in his own time.{jan 21-2009}
    I can only dream of an European guy my side of the water to start along the same road!

    Often informed by the gurus on this blog about useful sites to check out I stumbled upon this one, [which they probably already know about], which accounts for their well informed replies. Perhaps it will help your own research or at least give your kids extra insight.[ Your kids will probably help you navigate around the items of interest!] Not 100% complete, but for those with computer skills- they are hiring!
    check your country, but keep the sick-bucket at hand

    Check out America at your leisure!
    But do not forget to have a look at how your country and the others are doing too.
    Makes for depressive reading.

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  • 111. At 3:24pm on 26 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Middlecroony,

    Thanks for that, where I learned I share a birthday with ffrf's founder and Andrew Carnegie!

    But I'm such a freethinker that I don't even exclude belief - a militant agnostic am I!

    Peace and Anarchy
    ed

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  • 112. At 3:28pm on 26 Nov 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    #98 Xie-Ming:

    "Indeed, the possession of such a weapon by one side does breed an arrogance.

    A strong reason for getting such weaponry to Iran or for depriving Israel of them."

    Okay to make this clear I don't favour any of the 'sides' in the Middle East, eventually they will have to accept co-existence with old enemies and make their peace accordingly. That day might however come sooner if one side didn't have the misplaced confidence that sole possession of nuclear weapons confers.

    #103 DNAthiest:

    "Again, leadership through common (global) concensus rather than swaggering and divisive (non-)leadership will have a major role to play if we are to ensure that the world doesn't go the way of post-apocalyptic wasteland."

    The fact that no nation is likely to be able to claim the outdated mantle of 'superpower' is certainly a positive, and a crisis is often the catalyst for political change, you can have too much stability. Also the major players knowing that none of the others can fall back on military solutions without inviting annihilation makes consensus the only route available. Once a consensus is built the nukes can be put to better use.



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  • 113. At 3:33pm on 26 Nov 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    # 103

    The Apocalypse, End Times scenario is part of the Judeo-Chrstian religious ideology (apparently embraced by Reagan and many fundamentalists/evangelicals)

    However, I see not religion, but rather the ideological mind-set as at fault.

    As Bob Altemeyer and others have documented the overlap of fundamentalism and the obedient-authoritarian personality is nearly 100%,

    but, would not any form of strong ideology have the same anti-life effect?

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  • 114. At 3:43pm on 26 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    l00 ~ Chillo

    Yes, I remember your falling out with Ed.

    Yes, I remember that Grauniad poll.

    I mentioned a large (and energised) section of the British public strongly opposing the war - I did not say 'majority' because probably at the outset a majority allowed themselves to be persuaded by the WMD argument which, did after all, come from the lips of their Prime Minister.

    As things got murkier and murkier, the majority changed their view to that of the minority.

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  • 115. At 3:47pm on 26 Nov 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To #31Samtyler1969

    Good post!

    To answer your question:

    Some of the things you listed plus, my dear one, my family, my friends, my health (and getting that cast off my foot!) and our relative prosperity.

    Also, the internet, blogs and email, good books, music and many thanks to the rain gods for the rain we are receiving today and tomorrow!

    Bless you for reminding us all and enjoy your Thanksgiving day.

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  • 116. At 3:47pm on 26 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 108

    It's OK - I know my place.

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  • 117. At 3:48pm on 26 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Waterman (110),

    Thanks for that resource, duly noted and bookmarked. On perusal, it seems we are near the top in at least some fields of human endeavour...

    Peace and Guns for all
    ed

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  • 118. At 3:50pm on 26 Nov 2008, The Notting Hill Hammer wrote:

    Watermanaquarius wrote:

    Often informed by the gurus on this blog about useful sites to check out I stumbled upon this one, [which they probably already know about], which accounts for their well informed replies. Perhaps it will help your own research or at least give your kids extra insight.[ Your kids will probably help you navigate around the items of interest!] Not 100% complete, but for those with computer skills- they are hiring!

    check your country, but keep the sick-bucket at hand


    Check out America at your leisure!
    But do not forget to have a look at how your country and the others are doing too.
    Makes for depressive reading.

    ..............................

    I did look at Nationmaster. According to this site the USA is more: murderous, corrupt, militaristic and rich than the UK but less: educated, long lived, generous and athletic than the UK.

    After living in both societies on the whole I prefer the UK.

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  • 119. At 3:52pm on 26 Nov 2008, DougTexan wrote:

    2008 vs. the Orwellian 1984

    Proles, your name inspired some research and recollection of 1980's, thank you. Though you may be of the outer party mocking us proles, it matters not. For I am a prole, the working class with a....

    Ah, I can see it now, soon our "Ministry of Love" will take over a Guantanamo, the newly formed "Ministry of Peace", will begin the end of conflict, even if it requires a bigger war to attain economic balance,.. er,..peace.

    What brings this up that with the ever increasing unemployment, here in the United States where real numbers suggest over ten percent currently in Texas, and in the rust belt to twelve percent and higher,.. though the 'official' number is just five to six percent, and 'slightly' higher.

    How is China doing? The number of people make even low unemployment percentages devastating, how to maintain control becomes the real issue. Just as in Orwells book;...that the motivation of the Inner Party is not to achieve a future paradise but to retain power, which has become an end in itself.

    And the ever shifting alliances maintained an ever existing war, not for property or control, but to maintain the economic engine while controlling the population numbers through patriotism and war.

    In my short lifetime since 1954 we've (U.S.) warred with China through Vietnam and Korea, then been friends in economic boons. Been in a cold war with Russia and allied in the UN. We've sided with Iran to only now wonder about Iran, Set up Qaddafi to take him down, the same with Saddam. Noriega comes to mind as well.

    The "Ministry of Peace" at work.

    And soon to be passed here is the "Fairness Doctrine", where freedom of speech is taken away for 'fairness'. Any 'right wing' publication and news letter, radio show or broadcast will be "Required" to be fair,.. but who makes that decision?
    Maybe the new "Ministry of Fairness"

    just words.....

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  • 120. At 4:06pm on 26 Nov 2008, The Notting Hill Hammer wrote:

    Interestingly the USA pay more overall tax than the UK as well.

    This fits in well with my experience of life on both sides of the pond, but not with the mad prejudices of those without the experience or knowledge.

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  • 121. At 4:07pm on 26 Nov 2008, DNAtheist wrote:

    No.113.

    Just as many religions have a flood mythology, most presumably have an apocalypse scenario. Given that all religions are likely drawn from a common theme - that of primitive fear, lack of understanding, lack of answers to ultimate questions - one can healthily presume that in many respects they are all essentially the same.

    I doubt any individual strong ideology would be a major contributor on its own, but certainly when authoritarians whip up a frenzy of 'belief' in a particular ideology then the warning bells start to ring. Religion is undeniably a powerful tool for doing so.

    Any establishment that is anathema to critical thinking, analysis, questioning, reason, logic, and especially mutability, is a potential danger.

    Many people seem to think they need to be led, that they can't derive their morals without holy scriptures, that groups justify them, and so on. Back to my mentioning of equality: we are not all the same, and that is something to be cherished. The more individual we are, the more we learn to respect that in others, the less effect frenzied and overly-zealous mindsets should have.

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  • 122. At 4:09pm on 26 Nov 2008, middlecroony wrote:

    Ed-

    Well happy birthday yesterday!

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  • 123. At 4:10pm on 26 Nov 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    #119 DougTexan

    "And soon to be passed here is the "Fairness Doctrine", where freedom of speech is taken away for 'fairness'. Any 'right wing' publication and news letter, radio show or broadcast will be "Required" to be fair,.. but who makes that decision?"

    Actually it appears this is another piece of Talk Radio hysteria. You can find more details if you sift through fivethirtyeight.com but it appears that Obama is against it and its already been voted down by the Democrats on a previous occassion, so Rush Limbaugh and co can continue their fact free diet.

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  • 124. At 4:11pm on 26 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Doug,

    Excellent post and evocation of things Orwellian, except

    "And soon to be passed here is the "Fairness Doctrine""
    whixh is a total mad hare set running by talk radio. There is no chance whatever of the resurrection of the "fairness act" or anything like it, and you should know better.

    I do think it would be a Good Thing if we all read (or re-read) 1984, though, and I have recommended it to a friend, who recently became a civil servant in the "Central Office of Information" (UK)....Ministry of Truth, anyone? She informs me it's internally known as the Office of Disinformation.

    ;-)
    ed

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  • 125. At 4:15pm on 26 Nov 2008, The Notting Hill Hammer wrote:

    #31 Sam

    1) My Wife
    2) West Ham keeping 2 clean sheets in a row
    3) Fleet Foxes' magical music
    4) Ben Sherman
    5) All things Mod
    6) Barolo
    7) Living in the UK
    8) Thai Food
    9) being alive
    10) secular humanism

    I guess I'm thanking the universe because that's all there is.

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  • 126. At 4:16pm on 26 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    23. At 11:41pm on 25 Nov 2008, khecml

    "I remember a suave, smooth talking, personable individual sweeping through British Politics to much acclaim. Surely we have exported this trait to the US not the other way around.

    I just hope that President elect Obama does not turn out to be as two faced and as smarmy as Blair in the years to come."

    ------------------------
    I'd agree about the two faces always will with politicians.

    but as to Tony the transformer.

    I think you forget his role model "Bill Clinton"


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  • 127. At 4:21pm on 26 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Or this (follow the money) Free Trade For All!

    The best sort of product is the sort of which it can be said that its use creates an inevitable demand for more...

    Peace and commonsense
    ed

    "XXII. The key to peaceableness is continuous practice. It is wrong to suppose that we can exploit and impoverish the poorer countries, while arming them and instructing them in the newest means of war, and then reasonably expect them to be peaceable."

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  • 128. At 4:22pm on 26 Nov 2008, mdalerwill wrote:

    Re #31 SamTyler1969,

    Thank you. I was getting frustrated with some of the posts on this thread, and was foolishly considering taking them on, when I saw your message and the mention of my favorite painter, Caravaggio.

    I did a paper in college on Caravaggio's Virgin Mary paintings and loved every moment of the research I did on the topic.

    The thought put me in a much better mood.

    I think I shall not engage in political debate today (especially as your predictions regarding the direction of the thread have proven so accurate).

    Happy Thanksgiving.

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  • 129. At 4:30pm on 26 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Croony (122),

    Thanks. I got three particularly excellent gifts: An excellent malt, a wonderful book about wood ("Wildwood"), and the full first series of Northern Exposure on DVD!!!!

    Peace and mooseburgers
    ed

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  • 130. At 4:36pm on 26 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    19 Gherkin

    The "parasitic" union.


    Strange how so many that would charge $70 an hour for their services get annoyed at how the Union "cost" the company $70.


    Even though they do not the numbers there are a little misleading because that takes into account other retired employee's retirement.
    The Union folk get how much money an hour.

    $35 a guess would be good after taxes and benefits . Not a huge amount unless compared to the millions of really badly paid americans on 7-12 with no benefits.

    Now how much does the computer consultant charge per hour, the doctor, the whole of the so called "professional class" of workers that regularly take $70 an hour of their customers .
    The plumbers, the (not so often) contractors.

    Hell one lady I worked for charged $70 an hour for "consulting" on peoples gardens.Putting in 1 ft wide pea gravel paths for taking wheel barrows down(won't work)In Eugene Oregon, hardly for you non locals ,a rich part of america.

    There were people that could afford to pay her to , that amazed me more.
    Today there was a Psychic financial consultant (ha ha ) charging $100 an hour. People pay.

    And here we have most of the infrastructure to build the transport of the future.

    We have the trained work force to build the transport of the future.

    We have (or had and could get back) the service industries that provide the logistical support for the industry of building the future.

    We just have a bunch of dunderheaded old "positive thinking" idiots running those companies.


    Now back to the "who killed the electric car" show, still old but what happened to GM new emission free car that got 150 miles a charge.
    why was that not developed but instead HUMMERS were built.
    Was it the Unions that said no to electric efficient cars (and shut up with your arguments about the EV working cause it did ) and yes to HUMMERS.

    Which union meeting did they get together and say screw that electric car.

    Because the BORED members did, while dreaming of big bonus and nice time off.


    Not the Union people.

    Plenty get paid more than them and most of the time those complaining are earning much more.

    It is not the Unions that bankrupted the country. It is the Banker, the realtors, the lawyers ,the health care suppliers,the list goes on, but not the unions.





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  • 131. At 4:36pm on 26 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Hammer,

    "10) secular humanism

    I guess I'm thanking the universe because that's all there is."
    I should think it a necessary precaution for a Secular Humanist

    Peace and respect for Greater Things
    ed

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  • 132. At 4:38pm on 26 Nov 2008, DougTexan wrote:

    Yeah the "fairness" deal may have been, nah, it was over the top, but I remember the days when it was in fact in use, having the "News" anchor introduce some drone for the purpose of equqlity,.. and there is more to it than just 'talk radio'.

    Asascott, maybe it is no more than 'just talk radio hysteria', but the facts are that more than a few Democrats, influencial at that, are interested in seeing it come to be.

    In June 2007, Senator Richard Durbin (Democrat of Illinois) said, "It’s time to reinstitute the Fairness Doctrine,” [19] an opinion shared by his Democratic colleague, Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts.[20] However, according to Marin Cogan of The New Republic in late 2008, "Senator Durbin's press secretary says that Durbin has 'no plans, no language, no nothing. He was asked in a hallway last year, he gave his personal view'—that the American people were served well under the doctrine—'and it's all been blown out of proportion.' " [21]

    On June 24, 2008, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (who represents most of San Francisco, California) told reporters that her fellow Democratic Representatives did not want to forbid reintroduction of the Fairness Doctrine, adding “the interest in my caucus is the reverse.” When asked by John Gizzi of Human Events, “Do you personally support revival of the ‘Fairness Doctrine?’”, the Speaker replied "Yes." [22]

    On October 22, 2008, Senator Jeff Bingaman, Democrat of New Mexico, told a conservative talk radio host in Albuquerque, New Mexico, "I would want this station and all stations to have to present a balanced perspective and different points of view," and "All I’m saying is that for many, many years we operated under a Fairness Doctrine in this country, and I think the country was well-served. I think the public discussion was at a higher level and more intelligent in those days than it has become since."


    I also receive the MaCalvaney financial report and other items that would be considered for regulation under this "Proposed Bill", which in fact would would put them out of business.

    Also, just because President Elect Obama has said one thing, it is already proven he is open to change, for his mind, his statements and his campaign promises. Don't take me wrong here, I think he is doing a spectacular job in his picks and decisions, in fact he is being the President I want,.. much to my own chagrin.

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  • 133. At 4:45pm on 26 Nov 2008, DougTexan wrote:

    Yeah the "fairness" deal may have been, nah, it was over the top, but I remember the days when it was in fact in use, having the "News" anchor introduce some drone for the purpose of equqlity,.. and there is more to it than just 'talk radio'.

    Asascott, maybe it is no more than 'just talk radio hysteria', but the facts are that more than a few Democrats, influencial at that, are interested in seeing it come to be.

    In June 2007, Senator Richard Durbin (Democrat of Illinois) said, "It’s time to reinstitute the Fairness Doctrine,” an opinion shared by his Democratic colleague, Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts.

    However, according to Marin Cogan of The New Republic in late 2008, "Senator Durbin's press secretary says that Durbin has 'no plans, no language, no nothing. He was asked in a hallway last year, he gave his personal view'—that the American people were served well under the doctrine—'and it's all been blown out of proportion.' "

    On June 24, 2008, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (who represents most of San Francisco, California) told reporters that her fellow Democratic Representatives did not want to forbid reintroduction of the Fairness Doctrine, adding “the interest in my caucus is the reverse.” When asked by John Gizzi of Human Events, “Do you personally support revival of the ‘Fairness Doctrine?’”, the Speaker replied "Yes."

    On October 22, 2008, Senator Jeff Bingaman, Democrat of New Mexico, told a conservative talk radio host in Albuquerque, New Mexico, "I would want this station and all stations to have to present a balanced perspective and different points of view," and "All I’m saying is that for many, many years we operated under a Fairness Doctrine in this country, and I think the country was well-served. I think the public discussion was at a higher level and more intelligent in those days than it has become since."


    I also receive the MaCalvaney Political Christian based financial report and other Medical and Financial items that would be considered for regulation under this "Proposed Bill", as thier one sided views are actually selling something such as Gold or securities, but they peach that dreaded 'right wing' hysteria that contain shredded wisps of truth.

    Also, just because President Elect Obama has said one thing, it is already proven he is open to change, for his mind, his statements and his campaign promises. Don't take me wrong here, I think he is doing a spectacular job in his picks and decisions, in fact he is being the President I want,.. much to my own chagrin.

    So in the end, I must admit that no doctrine is better, and I hope your right in that it is never passed,... nor proposed on the floor.

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  • 134. At 4:49pm on 26 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    31 sam
    fine home grown product of oregon.(not my home)
    My Honey
    fine side draft forges.
    plentiful supply of coke
    Cheap Cheap steel prices

    my nice new knocker

    my pets.

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  • 135. At 4:51pm on 26 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    oh to that list of who did cause all this other than those pesky unions.
    the wall street traders.
    the financial team that said buying futures of Gas to supply your bribe of "giving" gas to people dumb enough to buy your cars,won't put the price of Gas up(i'm positive).

    the oil companies who thought they could ream a little more out of everyone.

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  • 136. At 4:56pm on 26 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    32 Sam i think Dude was saying that Obama may not be two faced like tony.

    that proles may yet find that despite the appointments that some see as "strange" and not leaning where they hoped, that Obama is what he hopes for.

    The ring mater will always have the elephant and the donkeys.

    And for some of us The clintons being in washington is scary enough

    good to hear from you.

    Aqua are you on etsy?

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  • 137. At 5:00pm on 26 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    30 who joined who and why?

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  • 138. At 5:06pm on 26 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    48 excellent chillo

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  • 139. At 5:08pm on 26 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    50 80%
    excellent excellent

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  • 140. At 5:12pm on 26 Nov 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    #133 DougTexan

    "So in the end, I must admit that no doctrine is better, and I hope your right in that it is never passed,... nor proposed on the floor."

    The latter is possible but only because there are still a few members of the house who think WWW is a wrestling organization and e-mail is a passing fad.

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  • 141. At 5:12pm on 26 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    58. At 10:05am on 26 Nov 2008, Pariah wrote:
    TOO MANY PROMISES, TOO MANY VOWS TO DO THIS, OTHER VOWS TO DO THAT, BY PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA.

    PROBLEMS ARE TOO BIG TO HANDLE AND THUS I THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND THE WORLD ARE IN FOR A BIG DISAPPOINTMENT

    ----------------------------------------------

    And we would be happier with Moose and Chips.

    That's like saying screw the 3/4 full glass. You promised me full so I'll have none.


    Have fun. I hear there are advisors for $100 an hour that will help you.

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  • 142. At 5:19pm on 26 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    40. At 06:08am on 26 Nov 2008, onithor wrote:

    more excellence.

    the list is long .
    I agree that the view about minorities getting houses is what I would call offensive faeces .

    And just a tad racist, but we are hardly allowed to discuss that here.Sometimes.

    This view has been thrown out by many and I am glad you looked into it enough to know that this is a bull call that amounts to saying it happened because of them brown people .

    But then it is the Times, not exactly the least right leaning publication.




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  • 143. At 5:22pm on 26 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    Gherkin is a laugh

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  • 144. At 5:31pm on 26 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 133

    Doug,

    You quote Senator Jeff Bingaman as saying :

    "I would want this station and all stations to present a balanced perspective and different points of view"

    Is that so bad ?

    Doesn't it sound a bit like this one ?



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  • 145. At 5:34pm on 26 Nov 2008, watermanaquarius wrote:

    They often say a policeman is most successful at his job if he understands the mentality of the criminal mind. Perhaps some will paint Obama, the lawyer, as running with the fox and the hounds, because they often rehash the Reverend Wright , Ayers, Farrakhan links to Obama.
    Here is a quote about American education from "the evil"? Louis Farrakhan.

    "Minister Louis Farrakhan in his most enlighten book titled, "A Torchlight for America" stated, "By all measures-literacy, the dropout rate, test scores, plans to attend college and the cultivation of truth and principles among today's youth--the school system has failed. It's hard to understand how my generation, born in the thirties and forties, was least able to read and write, yet America has made so many advances in the society since then, but today's generation is less able to read and write than mine."

    Just another bloggers appraisal of education

    On the same site "red pill junkies" blog considers the USA auto industry problems.
    USA auto industry
    "Too bad, Detroit. You could have given us the solar car, or the hydrogen SUV, or a natural-gas truck. Instead you'll go the way of PanAm... and the dodo bird."

    The USA is now tops in registering for adult education. Perhaps because they missed getting it at school. But not for long. With all the trouble now in the world, we will all be trying to get smart.
    No fools, like us old fools.
    I am obviously in a depressed mood today! I am giving thanks that I have lost my mind.

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  • 146. At 5:37pm on 26 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    80% chillo and Ed

    oil companies did ream, but think back, just before that health care costs had rocketed..

    Then oil went up then houses started not selling.

    But we kept building because of that "positive" spirit.


    basically it is a huge circle of greed and trying to take too much that got us here.

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  • 147. At 5:40pm on 26 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Jack,

    "fine home grown product of oregon.(not my home)"
    Did you hear the sound of approaching choppers? I also got other birthday gifts of similar DNA. ;-)

    Peace and keep it local
    ed

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  • 148. At 5:43pm on 26 Nov 2008, middlecroony wrote:

    Sam#31

    1)My open-minded aussie lover
    2)Archetectual salvage
    3)My 57 chevy(4 door wagon)
    4)R&B music
    5)Oxford book of quotations
    6)Forgiveness
    7)humility
    8)victorian houses
    9)Mozart
    10)Family love
    11)NPR
    12)all of you

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  • 149. At 5:54pm on 26 Nov 2008, dceilar wrote:

    For any ex-pats: the end of a British institution!

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  • 150. At 5:55pm on 26 Nov 2008, ladycm wrote:

    31. At 03:55am on 26 Nov 2008, SamTyler1969:

    There are a few more things I would like to add to my list now that I am awake and alert!

    I am thankful for:

    -my family
    -my car so I can leave my extended family when ever I decide I can't take it anymore tomorrow.
    - thankful American culture doesn't dictate that I live with them all the time!
    -thankful for the alcohol that will drown out my step grand mother who is one of the 26% who still approve of Bush (yah they are out there).
    -thankful for hope. The hope that the Seahawks might beat the Cowboys. No one can ever take hope from me!

    Have a great Thanksgiving everyone!!!

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  • 151. At 6:04pm on 26 Nov 2008, vor_tecks wrote:

    Hi Folks,

    Sincere thanks to all for making this blog so civilised, a massive contrast to the poisonous parochial UK blogs on this site.

    It is a pleasure to visit here and read and learn and be amused (and occasionally contribute).

    You have taught and continue to teach me much about North America, particularly the USA. I am in awe of your erudition.

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  • 152. At 6:05pm on 26 Nov 2008, DougTexan wrote:

    80%
    yeah, I would actually like a better News Media. I think the Fairnes Dopctrine would do that to CBS, FOX, NBC and even CNN. How many times I've read a political point or story in the paper, turned on the radio and heard the same story, including key phrases, the every news channel is also using the same key note with the stories.

    Some call them talking points, but I think it really is pointing to a controlled media, from print to radio and television. Possibly the fairness doctrine as proposed in 1949 would bring back the true "Investigative Reporter", dang, that would be good.

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  • 153. At 6:14pm on 26 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    147 Ed ,yea it was just a suv though

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  • 154. At 6:20pm on 26 Nov 2008, SaintDominick wrote:

    Frankly, I am not surprised by the enthusiasm that is evident both in the USA and abroad over the election of Barack Obama.

    With few exceptions, most of the 43 white men that preceded him were at best mediocre and pompous statesmen more focused on their respective legacies and the need to support the special interests that put them in office than on the well being of their fellow citizens and, much less, the interest of the citizens of the world who look up to us for help and leadership.

    Regardless of what President Obama can achieve during the next four years, his election represents a major departure from the past, the abandonement of insular policies that often ignored the needs and aspirations of other nations, the end of the marginalization of at least 40% of our population, and the ascendancy to power of a member of a more pragmatic generation that does not carry the burden of hatred and suspicion that dominated the psyche and behavior of their elders.

    I hope he succeeds in all his endeavors, for the sake of my family, neighbors and friends, but regardless of how well he does as President I can honestly say that I am glad I had the opportunity to vote for him and would do it again without hesitation.

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  • 155. At 6:21pm on 26 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    Jack the Lad

    You always make me feel like misquoting Meg Ryan in WhenHmetS - "I'd like to be on whatever he's on".

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  • 156. At 6:59pm on 26 Nov 2008, lochraven wrote:

    #99 chill0

    #95 Xie_Ming
    I have provided you with links concerning the activities of Britain in Iraq 1918-1932.

    If you mean that Britain milked as much of the Middle East as we could for oil, no question about it.

    So did everyone else in the western world who had the opportunity.

    If you don't mean that, you'll have to say what you do mean.
    ____________________
    No, that's not what he meant. I think what he meant was he, like many others, is sick of hearing how America's interest in Iraq is only for oil, and no other country, especially the UK, would ever do such a thing.
    But thankfully you straightened that misperception out. So now, we don't have to call the pot a pot any more, do we?

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  • 157. At 7:03pm on 26 Nov 2008, hms_shannon wrote:

    #31 Sam,

    My Wife,
    My kids,
    Cawl,
    Welsh cakes,
    Bara-brith,
    Tea,
    My Honda,
    Crankshaft Jenkins,
    Vicar Evans,in the vicarage on the hill,
    known as Evans above,
    Common sense,trouble is that it is
    not that common,
    Wales,
    USA,

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  • 158. At 7:12pm on 26 Nov 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    For those of you who are too young to remember,
    this is an example of how the fairness
    doctrine, along with other federal mandates worked
    the last time that they were tried out.

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  • 159. At 7:18pm on 26 Nov 2008, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    # 124 Ed Iglehart wrote:

    "I do think it would be a Good Thing if we all read (or re-read) 1984, though, and I have recommended it to a friend, who recently became a civil servant in the "Central Office of Information" (UK)....Ministry of Truth, anyone? She informs me it's internally known as the Office of Disinformation."

    I heard from someone who worked there that when they used to have the DHSS in the UK [Department of Health and Social Security], it was known to staff as the Department of Stealth and Total Obscurity

    ;-)

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  • 160. At 7:19pm on 26 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #154

    Dominick your cynicism is showing.

    But I agree with you. But as I see Obama in the same light as most of the 43 I am immune to his allure.

    Let him prove himself before we adda 5th face to Rushmore.

    For those unfamliar with U.S history, please examine the Presidents between Andrew Jackson and Lincoln and than Licoln to Teddy Rooselvelt.

    Some of them were as big a failures as the worst President of our era Jimmy Carter.

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  • 161. At 7:29pm on 26 Nov 2008, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    # 84 GreySquirrel1867 wrote:

    "The most disturbing thing about Hillary Clinton's appointment to State is her ruthless pursuit of power. Barrack Obama should know better than to apoint her to any position in the line of succession."

    Not quite sure on the logic here. According to Wiki the presidential line of succession is

    - Vice President
    - Speaker of the House of Representatives
    - President pro tempore of the Senate
    - Secretary of State

    This only arises "upon the incapacity, death, resignation, or removal from office (by impeachment and subsequent conviction) of a sitting president or a president-elect"

    So, HRC may well be ambitious - but are we expecting her to bump off all of the above??

    It's been argued that one advantage for Obama is that removes her as a potential rival in the Senate. After all, in theory at least, he can sack her at any time. [The 'practice' might prove politically difficult, unless she was being blatantly disloyal to him.]

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  • 162. At 7:39pm on 26 Nov 2008, U13664982 wrote:

    Rebuttal to Xie_Ming 3:12pm #107

    I seem to have found you lying to the DECENT FOLK again Xie_Ming: The propagandist you are telling all these nice folks about is me and the forum you refer to is Off Limits from the 14th November.

    As it stands this evening there are only two or three of your posts in that forum that are in limbo as you claim here:

    No less than sixty two per cent of your posts from the last two days have been removed permanently from that forum for breach of House Rules; mainly offensive racism.

    As you say truth will out; for example in your post #311 in the Off Limits forum you are discovered as a complete liar as I prove in my post #316 there.

    In the American Exceptionalism Forum you are discovered as a Holocaust denier and racist; where many more of your odious untrue posts are also removed permanently; such as posts 334 and 341 both denying the Holocaust and being extremely offensive.

    As I explained to you with a Winston Churchill quote; you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time.

    To all you DECENT FOLK out there; be very careful to check the links and usually broken urls that Xie_Ming uses to back his rants. They are normally saying the opposite of what he wants you to think.

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  • 163. At 7:40pm on 26 Nov 2008, mdalerwill wrote:

    To continue the most pleasant thread hijacking I have yet seen on the BBC site, I am thankful for:

    Family and friends, present and passed;
    A job that is both good and secure (knock);
    Good health;
    British-style Indian food;
    icanhascheezburger.com to make me laugh;
    Having multiple invitations to holiday celebrations.

    Being a small part Native American, however, I will also spend a few minutes tomorrow observing What Were We Thinking Day (yes, I just made that up).

    I am reminded of a very funny bit of dialogue from the children's Thanksgiving pageant scene from the movie Adams Family Values, spoken by deadpan, morbid little Wednesday, dressed as an Indian maiden:

    "Wait!....We cannot break bread with you…..You have taken the land which is rightfully ours. Years from now my people will be forced to live in mobile homes on reservations. Your people will wear cardigans, and drink highballs. We will sell our bracelets by the roadsides. You will play golf, and enjoy hot hors d'oeuvres. My people will have pain and degradation. Your people will have stick shifts. The gods of my tribe have spoken. They have said, "Do not trust the Pilgrims…..."….. And for all these reasons I have decided to scalp you and burn your village to the ground."

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  • 164. At 7:42pm on 26 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    160
    your bias is showing.

    tuck in the carter comment.

    What exactly is your issue with Jimmy?

    I mean exactly .Not that he's a dem.

    What makes jimmy Carter nobel peace prize winning Carter the worse president in US history.

    It wasn't that he predicted correctly that america needed solar tech and other alternatives, was it.

    Or that he increased the fuel standards for commercial fleets up from what 12 mpg to 25 mpg or there about.

    Those same standards that now have GM and others claiming " we get 25 mpg we're the best" in their adverts.

    Habitat for Humanity do you hate that?

    Common what exactly is it about this visionary thinker of america that you hate so much.

    It seems to me it was not Jimmy that let america down but america that let jimmy down.

    PS were you asleep for the last 8 years because the title"worst President of our era"

    has been awarded to this guy who was in texas for a while.
    He learned that Texan we like it big philosophy , and made Jimmy look like an amateur screw up.


    Have a truly heart stopping day.
    Oh and if you do read this , what exactly do you do for work?
    How much do you charge per hour?

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  • 165. At 7:46pm on 26 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    well sam it ends I see that the blog trolls have increased to include in the clan zeneds whop is probably writing to tell us who it thinks Xie is and how Xie is anti Isreal and little better than a nazi.
    Probably will forget to include that they are related to the true pooh and plop and claim something about how they have proved something. despite a total lack of anything other than their opinion and the opinion of others who wish to do nothing but incite arguments about Israel.

    May they have a heart stopping feast as well.

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  • 166. At 7:50pm on 26 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    oh the mods got it . good.


    mdalerwill wow that would have been a game changer .
    I wish they had.
    the bit about stick shift though,, I thought fat lazy americans drove automatics?

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  • 167. At 7:58pm on 26 Nov 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    #12 DougTexan:

    "Some call them talking points, but I think it really is pointing to a controlled media, from print to radio and television. Possibly the fairness doctrine as proposed in 1949 would bring back the true "Investigative Reporter", dang, that would be good."

    I don't think its control so much as laziness,someone throws them a good soundbite and the media runs with it, or they decide on the 'take' on a story and no one has the will to investigate and break ranks.

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  • 168. At 8:00pm on 26 Nov 2008, U13664982 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 169. At 8:04pm on 26 Nov 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    #164 jacksforge:


    "tuck in the carter comment.

    What exactly is your issue with Jimmy?"

    I have a horrible feeling that I know, and I think you do too, it relates to one particular political achievement and it involves a place that begins with an 'I'...

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  • 170. At 8:07pm on 26 Nov 2008, U13664982 wrote:

    Rebuttal to Xie_Ming 3:12pm #107

    The propagandist you are telling all these nice folks about is me and the forum you refer to is Off Limits from the 14th November.

    As it stands this evening there are only two or three of your posts in limbo as you say on that forum. No less than sixty two per cent of your posts (more than 14) from the last two days in the Off Limits forum have been removed for breach of House Rules.

    The facts contradict what you say in your post here.

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  • 171. At 8:19pm on 26 Nov 2008, mdalerwill wrote:

    Re #166 jacksforge,

    Hey, I resemble that remark! Just kidding. I haven't looked up any stats, but my impression is that most of us do drive automatics now. My attempt to learn stick as a teenager was laughable. Yet, the car companies still charge extra for automatic transmission. Go figure.

    Here in central Cali, we pretty much have to drive everywhere if we want to get there on time, so it's not just about being fat and lazy. Public transportation still has a long way to go. However, we did pass Prop 1A, to my great surprise. Thus we will now borrow jusy shy of $10 billion to start on our $40 billion high speed rail system. It's a great idea, and a great system, but I will admit I was torn over the issue of borrowing in our current state of affairs. Hopefully, projections on job creation and economic stimulation will prove correct. It would be great to get to San Francisco, Sacramento and Los Angeles in so short a time and without having to drive. I absolutely will not drive in SF or LA.

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  • 172. At 8:24pm on 26 Nov 2008, gillynz wrote:

    Funniest comment I heard on the race issue and Obama's win was that nothing had really changed because 'Black man gets worst job in USA'.
    On a more serious note if his presidency is anywhere near as good as his campaign then he will make a great president

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  • 173. At 8:35pm on 26 Nov 2008, SaintDominick wrote:

    Ref 160

    As I said in my first statement, there have been exceptions, among them Lincoln. FDR, Eisenhower, and Clinton. From the mediocrity that characterizes most of the others stand some that can only be categorized as incredible examples of ineptitude and arrogance. The worst among the latter are the Hoover and Bush II Administrations.

    Clearly, it is premature to pass judgment on the Obama Administration, but he has already scored a major victory by breaking the mold and giving all Americans and the people of the world hope for a better future. As an American, I sincerely hope he succeeds, but I temper my expectations with the knowledge that the damage done by the Bush Administration during the past 8 years may take a long time to correct and that special interests will oppose significant changes in direction, particularly when it comes to foreign policy.

    Carter was a victim of circumstances, he inherited an inflation rate out of control that required high interest rates to mitigate, an energy crisis; and the embarrassing hostage crisis and rescue attempt were not his fault. His deep religious beliefs did impair his ability to govern a cynical and greedy society more interested in their personal interests than those of the nation and, much less, the world.

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  • 174. At 8:43pm on 26 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    169 asa

    I have heard marble express dissatisfaction with Jimmy .

    I was wondering if Gherkin could explain his hatred without mentioning "that" issue.

    I would be really interested if he could explain to me the Iran/contra deal because I feel particularly ignorant about that issue which arose under the presidency of Jimmy the Great.
    Provider of houses, for-seer of future, He who should have been obeyed .;)

    "The Iran-Contra scandal can be traced to the October Surprise during the 1980 Presidential election between incumbent Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan. In the fall of 1980, Carter was marginally leading Reagan in the polls with the election right around the corner. The release of hostages before election day presumably would have insured the election for Carter. The Reagan team conspired to negotiate a deal with Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran. Campaign manager William Casey and George Bush met with Iranian Prime Minister Bani-sadr in Paris in October, only weeks before the election and with Carter having a slight lead over Reagan. Part of the deal cut between the Reagan team and Iran was to provide military weapons which Iran desperately needed in its war with Iraq. As it turned out, the 52 American hostages remained captive in Teheran. Carter's popularity continued to plummet, enabling Reagan to be elected in November, and ironically the hostages were returned at 12 o'clock noon on January 21, 1981 when Reagan was inaugurated."
    http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/jphuck/BOOK3Ch7.html

    these allegations have never been proved but then how would that happen when all the people we were dealing with are now considered a bunch of" lying terrorists"

    Or pardoned.

    Was Carter a weed or just smarter than most.

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  • 175. At 8:50pm on 26 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    171 Ahh Cali the only sane state in the US.

    (that 'll get them going;))

    Cali that said "wait these plastics are poisonous .
    Cali that brought us the concept of warning lables (good concept but not to minimise it's impact all american goods have to warn you about the danger to your eyes.etc)

    cali that tried to get food labelling
    cali that tried emission standards

    California has done a lot to help and tries it's hardest despite being surrounded by america.
    good on California.
    Good decision .

    Keep forcing america to wake up.

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  • 176. At 8:52pm on 26 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    173 I'd agree that CArter was given a bad rap.
    and that america ignores him at it's own peril.

    Chickens coming home to roost where the solar cells used to be.

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  • 177. At 9:00pm on 26 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 176

    And I believe he is the only ex-President to be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize 21 years after leaving office (Woodrow Wilson was awarded it in 1919 when in office).

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  • 178. At 9:05pm on 26 Nov 2008, frayedcat wrote:

    "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican" - HL Mencken

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  • 179. At 9:24pm on 26 Nov 2008, mdalerwill wrote:

    Re #175 jacksforge,

    LOL. As my close family friend, a robust Cajun man relocated from New Orleans, says, "California is God's country, Hoss."

    We have our problems and our divisions, as the latest election illustrated, but I am pleased that our state has tried to make headway on so many progressive issues. I recall fondly GWB's allusions to us as a rogue state. If we could (1) overcome the absurdly partisan disposition of our state government and (2) reverse the mandated spending spree imposed by a decade of excessive propositions, we could be quite a jewel again.

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  • 180. At 9:34pm on 26 Nov 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To Jacksforge and Eightypercent

    While waiting for the arrival of some delayed family members, I logged back here to see what posters were saying.

    I am not exactly sure where you both stand but I will add, my not very well informed, opinion about Jimmy Carter.

    I always considered him a very kindhearted, honest and moral man, who was out of his depth in the arena of Washington politics.

    The events that challenged his time in the presidency were more than his experience, his psychological, his intellectual and emotional resources were capable of handling. I have always felt that he was a good man in the very wrong place at a very challenging time.

    His conduct since leaving office has seemed to me to focus on care for people in most need and to the promotion of peace. His efforts may not have been as effective as I might have hoped but I will give him an "E" for the efforts he has made. He makes mistakes but who of us has not?

    His heart is in the work he tries to do and I honor him for that. There are too many in the world right now who seem not only to have lost their heads but have misplaced their hearts, as well.

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  • 181. At 9:39pm on 26 Nov 2008, middlecroony wrote:

    Oh, I forgot VODKA on my list of things to be thankful for.

    As for Jimmy Carter, I think he was just too honest.

    To complain of the age we live in, to murmur at the present possesors of power, to lament the past, to coceive extravagant hopes for the future, are the common dispositions of the greatest part of mankind.
    edmund burke 1729-1797


    I guess we're all pretty great!

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  • 182. At 9:40pm on 26 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #164 and any other questions

    My problem with Carter is he has shown an appeasment to terrorist and dictators (Chavez and Castro among others.)

    He sides with the terrorist groups in the Middle East and has shown blantant hate for Israel.

    Carter broke the unwritten rule that every ex President from Truman on has honored no free lancing.

    The fact that he is a clueless idiot who knew nothing about foriegn policy makes it.

    He is Mandela's token American on his farce The Elders

    The Nobel peace prize is a joke as are the terrorist sympathizers who award it.

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  • 183. At 9:42pm on 26 Nov 2008, BienvenueEnLouisiana wrote:

    Hello everyone :)
    I have 3 points to make.

    *With regard to the U.S. Supreme Court, Supreme Court Justices are appointed by the President, confirmed by the Congress, and sit on the bench for life; Supreme Court rulings are respected by the government and those exceptions are either anctient history or few and far between.

    *As for Carter, he did not inherit all those problems; they occured under his administration and while I agree that some things like OPEC's embargo were out of his control, he was directly responsible for so much else.

    *And lastly, California is not "the only sane state" in the U.S.; your talking about a state that defies Federal Law on immigration with Safe Haven cities, has cities that ban fast food restaurants, has judges that legislate from the bench rather than interpret law, and now has a State Supreme Court that will judge the Constitutionality of a legally ratified Constitutional Amendment; Sane? I think not.

    Take care, and Happy Thanksgiving.

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  • 184. At 9:45pm on 26 Nov 2008, BienvenueEnLouisiana wrote:

    aquarizonagal,

    I think your post #180 is a fair assesment of Carter and I agree with you.

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  • 185. At 9:48pm on 26 Nov 2008, middlecroony wrote:

    I had not read #180 before i wrote that about Carter. You expressed it way better than I ever could have.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Carter who would'nt negotiate w/ terrorists, and when the almighty Reagan came in he did and became the big hero? Imagine the turmoil Carter felt, all to be undone w/ one swoop.

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  • 186. At 9:55pm on 26 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    On the eve of Thanksgiving, our sympathies should go to the people of India on the recent terrorist attack.

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  • 187. At 10:08pm on 26 Nov 2008, mdalerwill wrote:

    Re #183 BienvenueEnLouisiana,

    "And lastly, California..."

    You say that like its a bad thing. :)

    And you forgot that we are also defying Federal law on the legalization of medical marijuana use and have attempted to buck Federal law with stricter emissions regulations than they want us to have.

    Woohoo! Rogue state!

    Seriously, though, Happy Thanksgiving.

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  • 188. At 10:12pm on 26 Nov 2008, watermanaquarius wrote:

    Sam # 31
    If I may be allowed to add my thanks too. For

    1. My wife- My everything from the East!
    2. My 3 daughters- Here in the West
    3. My Mum [and my late Dad- with wings, or stoking the fires below?]
    4. Yourself. - humour and balance.
    5. Ed- The greatest bearded American techno-Scot red indian around.
    6. David- Dry English schoolteechers make the best tonic.
    7. MAII - There but for the grace .......
    8. Jack - Finesse personified. Hammer and tongue.
    9. Justin and his moderators- Tumbling kaleidoscopes.
    10. All friends, near and far.On call when needed.
    12. The sea, sun, moon, stars, rain, trees, plants and all living things in my garden, my health and the humbleness to value it all.
    Happy Thanksgiving.

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  • 189. At 10:14pm on 26 Nov 2008, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    182 MagicKirin

    In Animal Farm the sheep shouted down any dissent by chanting

    '4 legs good
    2 legs bad
    4 legs good
    2 legs bad'

    In Kirin World, substitute

    'Israel good
    Palestinians bad
    Israel good
    Palestinians bad'

    Then ignore any and all facts or evidence that disturbs this mindset, and leave stewing in ignorance for a few decades

    Anyone who dares to say anything in any way critical of Israel or in any way uncritical of Israel's 'enemies' becomes similarly 'bad', whether they are Nelson Mandela or Jimmy Carter.

    For someone so consumed with hatred, he's also v fond of calling other people 'haters'

    May I suggest we have a collection and buy him a mirror?

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  • 190. At 10:35pm on 26 Nov 2008, ladycm wrote:

    Ref 186: You are correct. That attack was senseless and it makes me sick.

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  • 191. At 10:49pm on 26 Nov 2008, U13664982 wrote:

    I am waiting for some fool to tell us that what just happened in India is the fault of Israel:

    Well those Judeophobics are so blinded that someone is bound to be thinking how they can make that connection.



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  • 192. At 11:13pm on 26 Nov 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    180, acua.

    I think Jimmy Carter's heart was always in the right place, but as a president he was a failure. He was particularly inept at foreign affairs and saw other nations through the eyes of an American with American values. His greatest fault was naivete.

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  • 193. At 11:16pm on 26 Nov 2008, selfevidenttruths wrote:

    186 magick:

    Yes, indeed, and I might add the people of Zimbabwe, who now have to deal with a cholera epidemic ...

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  • 194. At 11:17pm on 26 Nov 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    189, John in Dublin.

    For me, TooTrue and Magic are in Coventry. It was suggested by a blogger that they may have a particular agenda which, by not corresponding with them, is thwarted (my tactic).

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  • 195. At 11:27pm on 26 Nov 2008, selfevidenttruths wrote:

    One of Carter's achievements: The lowest national debt in the post-Truman era ~ 35%. Under Reagan it jumped to ~ 55%.

    The United States' national debt is currently rising at $1,000,000 every ... 10 seconds!

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  • 196. At 11:30pm on 26 Nov 2008, TrueToo wrote:

    189. john-In-Dublin,

    There are a number of Palestinian supporting regulars on this site who really do spray venom all over the place. Maybe you should be criticising them. They have the barefaced cheek to state that the establishment of Israel was a "mistake" and single Israel out for condemnation, when all around her there are countries that have barely emerged from the Middle Ages with their lack of concern for human rights and democracy and their brutal suppression of their own people.

    Syria has just bestowed an "order of merit" on Samir Kuntar - the foul terrorist who infiltrated Israel from Lebanon, murdered a father in front of his four-year-old daughter and then proceeded to bash the little girl's head in against a rock with his rifle butt.

    Kuntar also received a hero's welcome in Lebanon on his release from prison in Israel.

    But carry on trashing Israel, guys. Carry on proving that your hypocrisy knows no limits.

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  • 197. At 11:32pm on 26 Nov 2008, selfevidenttruths wrote:

    Happy Thanksgiving y'all! I ain't got a Turkey, but I'll cook up something good here on Airstrip One, and have a shot or 2 of Victory gin.

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  • 198. At 11:39pm on 26 Nov 2008, selfevidenttruths wrote:

    182 magick:

    I suspect this is a rare agreement. Your post 182 is more typical, and I have no trouble disagreeing with that completely.

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  • 199. At 11:46pm on 26 Nov 2008, chronophobe wrote:

    Re: 31 Sam 69
    What are you giving thanks for this week?
    =========================
    I've enjoyed your lists. Here's mine:

    -- excellent single pay health care (that's saving my wife's life). Thanks Tommy Douglas!

    -- the fruit of my loins.

    -- J.S. Bach (this one above all else.

    -- the fruit of the vine, in all its various fermentations

    -- indoor plumbing (including, of course, hot running water)

    -- two cylinder motorcycle engines (yep, all of 'em, even Harleys . . . )

    -and, of course, "snowflakes that stay on my nose and my lashes.

    Sorry, first real snowfall here, always beautiful and exciting. This is perhaps more to the point:

    Wherever snow falls, or water flows, or birds fly, wherever day and night meet in twilight, wherever the blue heaven is hung by clouds, or sown with stars, wherever are forms with transparent boundaries, wherever are outlets into celestial space, wherever is danger, and awe, and love, there is Beauty, plenteous as rain, shed for thee, and though thou shouldest walk the world over, thou shalt not be able to find a condition inopportune or ignoble.

    Ralph Waldo Emerson The Poet


    Happy Thanksgiving to all South of the border!


    Yours,
    Canadian Pinko, grateful to live in days of miracle and wonder


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  • 200. At 11:46pm on 26 Nov 2008, TrueToo wrote:

    allmymarbles,

    As I indicated on another thread, your tactic suits the school playground; it doesn't work on the Internet. Who cares if you don't talk to them here? I certainly don't. If you are incapable of presenting your side of the argument - for example why Iran should not be regarding as the world's primary sponsor of terrorism - then don't hide behind "Coventry." The fact is, you have no case and no leg to stand on. Iran is a terrorist state.

    To put someone in "Coventry " is to snub and isolate them. Perhaps if you think about that for a second you'll see how ridiculous it is to imagine you have the power to isolate anyone on a forum open to perusal by the public worldwide - in fact, to anyone with an Internet connection.

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  • 201. At 11:55pm on 26 Nov 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    Obama said that he would be going over the budget page by page and line by line. I had to think about this because the line item veto was declaired unconstitutional, and I presume he wants to cut out the pork. So what does he plan?

    Obama has millions of supporters and remains in contact with them. What if he brought the anti-pork question before them and told them to contact representative and congressmen to cut out the useless allocations? If I were he, that is what I would do.

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  • 202. At 00:18am on 27 Nov 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    My next door neighbor, Nick, who was one of the three oldest people to vote in the election, died yesterday. Very much of the old school, he would not tell anyone who he voted for. He was 106.

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  • 203. At 00:34am on 27 Nov 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#199Chronophobe

    Enjoyed your post and a happy day to you North of the border!

    You are having your first snowfall and we are having our first rain of the winter. The rain gods have blessed us both.

    For me it is: 'over the desert and through the cacti to grandmother's house we go.'

    Our weather here is holding up some family arrivals but I bless the rain we need so much.

    Rejoice in the snow and your family. I am sure that the debate will continue here.

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  • 204. At 00:38am on 27 Nov 2008, selfevidenttruths wrote:

    201 allmy:

    Logically, yes. The democratic power of the internet. On the other hand, once fully unleashed, it might lead to unexpected results, a kind of 'rule by electronic mob'. Sorry, I've been affected by the earlier Orwellian references ...

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  • 205. At 01:13am on 27 Nov 2008, Robert Bennett wrote:

    Now even the simple truth and reality are often precieved as "prejudice". This is the way PC works to change and distort the the way things are wanted, and to get their own way, no mater what the majority thinks. Things are getting so bad and hopeless one has to start asking "is it even worth trying to change things for the better" or is it best to care for yourself and your closest family and friends and turn your back on the rest? I look back to those very dark and frightening years right after the War...enen then we at least had hope for the future. What has gone so very wrong? Look at the youth of today, and how they appear to have little faith in anything but drugs, false pride and sex! How much meddling by government social planners has gone wrong, or is there more evil behind this breakdown of civilization than we yet know of? Something tremendous has gone wrong, even the biggest bombs, trillions of trillions of dollars, and modern life, do not seem to mean a thing. Somewhow the meaning of life has become, in many cases , worthless, lonely and futile. Many blame it on materialism, I believe it is a lost faith in our own ability to make things right, maybe God has just given up on us too?

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  • 206. At 01:21am on 27 Nov 2008, Jeebers76 wrote:

    Ladies and gentlemen of the UK, on the behalf of most of the USA, I have this to say:

    We are truly sorry about what's been happening in the past 2 decades. While Clinton was able to somewhat blunt their power, the Republicans have been preying on our fears for some time now. It's taken us a decade to completely change direction politically, but during that time Bush jr has done a lot of damage both to us and to the rest of the world.

    We're trying to fix the situation as fast as we can. It takes time to wholly switch political parties and direction. Notice that the Democrats now have a LOT of power because of our dissatisfaction, and in fact may gain almost total control if the 2 races in Minnesota and Georgia go the Democrats' way. (I'm a Minnesotan and voted Democrat all the way).

    Even so, the Democrats seem to want to depend on everyone's talents, no matter the party affiliation. We know we are in deep dooky, and so we're doing the best we can to solve things ASAP. Obama's hauling butt, and even in my home state, we're busy counting millions of votes.

    We know that our actions have a lot of influence worldwide, and we are trying to bear the weight as best we can. Personally, I wish that the world economy and politics weren't quite so sensitive, since the slightest USA movement causes ripples globally.

    We're sorry it came to this, we really are. We don't expect forgiveness, we'll just try to make amends at top speed. All of us intend to work very hard in the coming decades to make repairs, from what I can see.

    I hope this helps, at least somewhat. We didn't mean to trash your economy along with ours!

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  • 207. At 01:33am on 27 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #189

    It was Islamic facists who launched the terrorist attacks today in India.

    That is why I have stated that you can't trust Islamic facists from Hezbollah, Iran Somalia or other parts of the world.

    This is more evidence why they must be exterminated like the vermin they are.

    I am watting for you to absolve these terrorists just like you absolve the Palestinian terrorists.

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  • 208. At 02:29am on 27 Nov 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    204, selfevident.

    "The democratic power of the internet. On the other hand, once fully unleashed, it might lead to unexpected results, a kind of 'rule by electronic mob'."

    Some would argue that rule by the people is democracy.

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  • 209. At 03:23am on 27 Nov 2008, chronophobe wrote:

    Re: 205 rwbennett
    Many blame it on materialism, I believe it is a lost faith in our own ability to make things right, maybe God has just given up on us too?
    =========================

    It's interesting you should say that, because I think the whole post-war ethos of finding meaning-through-stuff is slowly winding down. I can well imagine how, following the hardships of the Depression and then the privations and sacrifices of WWII, people were eager to live well in a material sense. Perhaps we also expected this material well being to provide us with too much -- with meaning and purpose in life. This is particularly so in the New World, perhaps.

    More and more, people, having reached a level of material excess in the comforts of the "good life," are asking "is that all there is?" This is at least in part thanks to that other great dividend of WW2, the mass availability of higher levels of education.

    Not a day goes by that I am not grateful for the sacrifices of my grandparents, and for the wisdom of those who realised that post-war peace and prosperity could best be founded on education. Hope for the future surely arises from education: both in the promises of scientific and technical advances, and, more importantly perhaps, in re-imagining and articulating a future aimed at achieving something beyond the material excesses of the last 60 odd years.

    I am cautiously hopeful that the election of Obama is a sign of this turn in our history. Not because Obama is some kind of superman/messiah, but because he was able to tap into a powerful sentiment in the public imagination. I think people are sick of the vulgar materialism epitomised by the Bush years (surely the very icon of the failure of big bombs and nouveau billionaires to accomplish anything meaningful).

    People are hungry for a new way. I hope Obama can begin the delivery.

    As to whether "god" has abandoned us, I would see it rather that we are abandoning our false god of material excess. "God" (and not just old Yaweh/Jehovah/Alllah) is always there, waiting for us to engage, and in so doing, give new meaning to our world, and thereby to our lives.

    Yours,
    Canadian Pinko

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  • 210. At 03:41am on 27 Nov 2008, chronophobe wrote:

    Re:208 allmymarbles
    Some would argue that rule by the people is democracy.
    ======================
    Democracy is a truly classical conundrum:

    "The issue of democracy, for Socrates, revolved around the idea of whether virtue could be taught. He didn’t think so. People had virtue or they did not, and generally speaking, the better one’s breeding, the more virtuous one was. He therefore despised the sophists, or wisdom teachers, of the time, who were busy teaching the rising Greek middle class how to effectively reason, debate, and get their way in the public assembly, which he also despised."

    See Protagoras' response to old Socrates at the link above. The blog is interesting and perhaps even funny (well, I think!) . . .

    I must walk dog in snow, and to sleep.

    Cheers,
    Canadian Pinko

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  • 211. At 04:07am on 27 Nov 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    #205

    Dude,

    Monologueing.

    What's wrong with sex and drugs?

    Sad Sam

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  • 212. At 04:19am on 27 Nov 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    Thanksgiving is upon us.

    It has been a terrible day for our friends and colleagues in India.

    I have to add to my list. Tomorrow I shall give thanks for:

    - Friends
    - Family
    - Health
    - Our armed forces, and each and every person who serves
    - India and all my friends there
    - Charity - now more than ever.

    Peace be with you. And if it is your turkey day then let it be a good one and may your family prosper.

    Thanksgiving Sam

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  • 213. At 04:31am on 27 Nov 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    #128

    mdalerwill

    I was lucky enough to be in San Luegi Dei Francesi last week. Anywhere else in the world the ceiling would command hundreds of observers. The mura in the rest of the church would stun. But you walk to the chapel down on the left and see ...

    The Matthew cycle. It stuns. It Humbles. It calls to faith. Caravaggio.

    We stand in awe. And give thanks that someone could do this.

    Awed Sam

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  • 214. At 04:31am on 27 Nov 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    #212, amen to all that, Sam.

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  • 215. At 06:04am on 27 Nov 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    203, aqua.

    I can let you have some of our rain cheap. We have lots - an average of 4 inches each and every month. No dry season. All of our seasons are wet except in winter when we get that fluffy white stuff. To make up for it we have miraculous fall foliage.

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  • 216. At 07:22am on 27 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #93 & #124 Ed Iglehart
    1984 may well be my favourite book.

    Given your schadenfreude - and using the same logic as the anti-Iraq-War people applied to George Bush and Tony Blair on WMD - presumably you will be calling all of those who said that the Iraq War was about oil, liars ?

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  • 217. At 07:41am on 27 Nov 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    204, selfevident.

    "The democratic power of the internet. On the other hand, once fully unleashed, it might lead to unexpected results, a kind of 'rule by electronic mob'."

    It could get out of hand. For instance, requests for aid from supporters might encourage a mischief-making element to send the wrong signals. Also not everybody is represented on the internet. Probably a large proportion of the elderly (not senior citizen newspeak) and the poor or rural may not have computers. Representation by internet would favor the young and the educated.

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  • 218. At 07:42am on 27 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #114 eightypercent
    Presumably then you are with the 68% of UK people who want the UK to pull its troops out of Afghanistan within a year ?

    Or are you with the minority who want Gordon Brown to be Barack Obama's poodle ? (insult courtesy of Xie_Ming).

    In the Guardian poll on Iraq in April 2004 which I referred to in the post on the previous thread, 51% of UK people wanted our troops to remain in Iraq 'as long as is considered necessary' a year after the Iraq War had started.

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  • 219. At 07:55am on 27 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #207 MagicKirin
    I have no problem with the label 'terrorists' because that is what they are. They seek to impose their will by terror.

    They are not vermin, though. They are people who were brought up in a different way and taught different perspectives from us, that's all.

    I have a lot less time for the bored rich kids who were terrorists in the days of Bader Meinhof; the Zimbionese Liberation Army and (dare I say) the Weathermen.

    That is not meant to be a poke at Barack Obama but it certainly is a poke at William Ayers and Bernardine Dohm who paid practically no price for their crimes.

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  • 220. At 08:11am on 27 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 218

    Hey Chillo - no, no - and you mustn't presume. I'll write more later and will rise to your challenge !

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  • 221. At 08:20am on 27 Nov 2008, paminsandiego wrote:

    #24 dsanthony ....

    Please! Get a grip. Stalinists? And this is why Barack Obama was endorsed by General Colin Powell and conservatives like Christopher Buckley and David Brookes? Do you really believe that so many intelligent and informed Americans have signed on to destroy this country and its institutions? You doubt their patriotism and mine with this kind of inane blather.

    Sounds to me as if you have spent far too much listening to Rush the Comedian Limbaugh and Fox (Unbalanced) News.

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  • 222. At 08:21am on 27 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #220 eightypercent
    I look forward to it.

    I should have said that I am in favour of the Afghan War (warmonger that I am). I do not want Afghanistan to go the way of Somalia.

    I am surprised at you, though. Wanting to be involved in a war waged only for Afghan oil (believe me, someone will have said it sometime - on 'Have Your Say' many, many contributors have said the USA wouldn't be involved in Darfur because there's no oil there) ... when we were lied to about the existence of Afghan Osama Bin Ladens by Barack Obama (which sounds like Osama so there you are) and his NeoLib henchwoman Nancy Pelosi (the new Dick Cheney). Simon21 and dceilar where are you ? You know all this stuff.

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  • 223. At 09:05am on 27 Nov 2008, KAS1865 wrote:

    206

    Im sorry to say that you and the other Americans that voted for Obama will be the ones having to say sorry for the next few years.

    The Islamic extremists have the smell success in their nostrils knowing that Surrender by the US is imminent under a Democrat Administration and will step up their violence throughout the World.
    Last nights events in Mumbia are only the start.

    Obama has no real idea on how to halt the economic downturn and his much heralded "Change" is a sham with the old faces returning to shape US policy.

    We even have Billary Clinton being touted as a key player in the Obama Cabinet. The Democrats should enjoy the next four years, but spare a thought for the next Administration which will have to spend years repairing the damage caused by the incoming administration.

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  • 224. At 09:18am on 27 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    Chillo at 222.

    Once again you attribute a view to me which is totally at odds with my beliefs. What on earth are these two sentences about "I am surprised at you though. Wanting to be involved in a war waged only for Afghan oil"

    I would be very surprised at me as well if I ever said such a thing.

    And what's all this about Barack Obama lieing about the existence of "Afghan Osama bin Ladens". That is the reverse of Obama's position as anyone who has followed his policy statements knows only too well.

    I object very much at having words which are totally at odds with my understanding of the situation being attributed to me.

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  • 225. At 09:20am on 27 Nov 2008, dceilar wrote:

    Chill0

    Here's a news story about UK foreign and defence policy which may interest you.

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  • 226. At 09:30am on 27 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    223 KAS

    That's a laugh !

    Which administration is having to repair the damage caused by the previous one ? Truly ?

    What a silly thing to write.

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  • 227. At 09:45am on 27 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #225 dceilar
    I had read it.

    The commission says Iran should be stopped from developing nuclear weapons and that nuclear deterrence is no longer a sound basis of security policy

    How do you suppose Iran will be 'stopped from developing nuclear weapons' ? That is exactly the same agenda as the outgoing US administration.

    That 'nuclear deterrence is no longer a sound basis for security policy' is also interesting.

    Nuclear deterrence was the basis on which NATO had a 'first use' policy for nuclear weapons. That was in order to save money on conventional forces.

    The implication is that the UK should spend more on conventional forces and less on nuclear weapons. The implication of that is that wars like Iraq and Afghanistan could be waged more easily.

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  • 228. At 09:47am on 27 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #224 eightypercent
    Yet you did not answer the question which was:

    Do you want to be with the 68% of UK people who want to bring British troops out of Afghanistan within a year or do you want Gordon Brown to be Barack Obama's poodle ? (once again, insult origin Xie_Ming)

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  • 229. At 10:00am on 27 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #219

    I agree with your latter point, why Ayers is still employed at a university is beyond me.

    I've looked at U.S law there is no legal right to tenure.

    Ayers is a coward and his wife is as well. People of Illnois, please shun them.

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  • 230. At 10:10am on 27 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    Now, Chillo - so that there won't be any more "presuming" or even directly attributing views to me which are the reverse of those I hold, let me tell you what I believe.

    The Afghan war was inevitable (even though the British in the 19th century and the Soviets in the twentieth had suffered terrible humiliation in those mountains). The horrific nature of the taleban regime can be illustrated by its treatment of the female half of the population and when it offered refuge to the murderous bin Laden - both before and after 9/11 - it was obvious that the world would take action against it.

    And this is where I come to totally agree with Obama's view : given the hostility of the Afghan terrain, the tribal nature of its warlords and the fact that the bin Laden was still taunting the west, the job in Afghan was by no means finished when the Bush Administration took everyone's eye off the ball by drumming up a case to make war with Iraq.

    Oil or no oil, nasty Saddam or no nasty Saddam, the fact that this had to be done by manufacturing a false case about WMD, only - to me - proves the point that an invasion at that time was built on baseless arguments. As it was, after the Bush regime had had a grand time showing off its "boys toys" it was revealed that there was no post-invasion planning and no account had been taken of the near-boiling tensions between the Sunnis/Shias/Kurds or their various external friends or enemies.

    A bad situation was made considerably worse.

    I held the view at the time that this was a reckless venture, and I still hold that view. My view is as honest as the differing views of others but please do not again attribute words to me that I have not written.

    Finally, my home is in a UK garrison town where we are as proud of our military as we possibly could be and we know the sacrifices that they and their families constantly make. But a nation like Britain is restricted both demographically and financially in the size of military that it can sustain and there is a serious burden on our politicans and their advisers to know exactly where they are going, what they are doing and how they are going to get closure when they commit the country to conflict.



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  • 231. At 10:25am on 27 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #230 eightypercent
    You have still not said whether you are in favour of UK participation in the war in Afghanistan

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  • 232. At 10:47am on 27 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 231

    I thought I spelt it out quite clearly, Obama speaks for me when he says that the job is far from finished.

    And thank you to dceilar for highlighting the Ashdown/Robertson report. I heard Goerge Robertson speaking about it earlier and thoroughly welcomed the case that he is making. He and Ashdown are arguably two of the most experienced European politicians in the field of defence (one of them with a distinguished military background) and I am comforted that they have been given the time and space to do some lateral thinking.

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  • 233. At 10:48am on 27 Nov 2008, cyber wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 234. At 11:04am on 27 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:


    # 233

    What's all that about ?

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  • 235. At 11:09am on 27 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #232 eightypercent
    It's just that at #93 you said:


    Sensitive point - although the UK Government may have been in favour of the Iraq war, a significant part of the population were anything but....

    The same applies to the Afghanistan War but you are nonetheless in favour of it.

    It does not seem consistent.

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  • 236. At 11:26am on 27 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #234 eightypercent
    I think it's an allusion to the shrine to Barack Obama built by schoolchildren that Justin Webb referred to in the header.

    As a British person, building shrines to foreign politicians worries me endlessly.

    I am so ashamed of our patheticness.

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  • 237. At 11:28am on 27 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Pinko (209, 210),

    Thanks, and please keep it up. Good stuff. Of course, Socrates also distrusted the written word

    ""If men learn this, it will implant forgetfulness in their souls; they will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to remembrance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks." (from Plato's Phaedrus)"
    Peace and Socratic dialogue
    ed


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  • 238. At 11:29am on 27 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # No, Chillo, it doesn't mean the same thing - nor does it mean that I do not care about our military even when some of our politicians have made decisions which stretch their capabilities beyond toleration.

    You seem fixated with a "yes" or "no" answer to an ancient Guardian poll. From my response above can you not see that I would have told the Guardian to be off with themselves if they had come to me with their poll. The issue is too serious for that and past decisions have put us into a place which cannot simply be resolved by a Manichean view of right and wrong.

    My view expressed at 322 lays out my view that the Afghan war was inevitable but not properly executed and that the Iraq made a bad situation considerably worse.

    Can we close the discussion now ?

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  • 239. At 11:33am on 27 Nov 2008, KAS1865 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 240. At 11:34am on 27 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Chill0,

    "presumably you will be calling all of those who said that the Iraq War was about oil, liars ?"
    I'd be a liar if I did so. Your observations may demonstrate that it hasn't turned out quite as intended/expected, but that doesn't by any means disprove the intent.

    Peace and logical arguments
    ed

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  • 241. At 11:56am on 27 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Ms Marbles

    "Representation by internet would favor the young and the educated."
    and the obsessive.

    Chill0 (218),
    " In the Guardian poll on Iraq in April 2004 which I referred to in the post on the previous thread, 51% of UK people wanted our troops to remain in Iraq 'as long as is considered necessary' a year after the Iraq War had started."
    As previously noted, support for the troops and support for war are two quite different things. I also believe, that having created an unholy mess, we should attempt to repair the damage for which we have been largely responsible, and that certainly includes consideration of the means and methods of dis-engagement. We have a responsibility to listen to the Iraqi people with regard to both military and civil (dis)engagement.

    Regarding Afghanistan, 80% has been totally clear but you seem inclined to turn a deaf ear. Personally, I prefer the "people" route to engaging militarily in a situation which has repeatedly proved insoluble by military means...

    Peace and open minds
    ed

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  • 242. At 12:00pm on 27 Nov 2008, dceilar wrote:

    eightypercent and Chill0 on new UK foreign defence policy

    There seems that there is some common sense coming through - albeit about twenty years too late IMO. We should engage with other countries re: Afghanistan and Iraq to achieve our goals there. We should also accept that poverty is the breeding ground for extremism.

    However, I have doubts about nuclear disarmament ever being fulfilled. Everyone knows that possession of nuclear weapons brings the end of humanity that bit more closer but no-one will listen; rather like the current economic crisis - we all knew it was coming, but did nothing, yet moan that other people should have done something about it to stop it.

    Was there any credible evidence that nuclear weapons were a deterrent? A deterrent against what exactly?

    I may be cynical but I remember reading that re-armaments helped the West spend its way out of the Depression. So cutting back on nuclear weapons and spending it on conventional weapons and personnel may be part of an economic strategy!

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  • 243. At 12:02pm on 27 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    KAS, See a doctor. Your rage is blinding you and you're in danger of mistaking your target. Beware engaging in friendly fire.

    Peace and clarity
    ed

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  • 244. At 12:16pm on 27 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Up all night?

    Share and Enjoy
    ed

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  • 245. At 12:16pm on 27 Nov 2008, watermanaquarius wrote:

    chill0 # 236

    Lay off the kids.
    South London has a significant black population, not that that is significant here, but Justins piece runs through different age groups including the baby / bathwater bit, to the teenage son of the Brit MP etc etc.
    Nice to think that the enthusiasm experienced by the voting public after so many pathetic turn outs at recent elections, is reaching the younger and future generations.
    Only hope they do not realise yet the load that has been placed on their shoulders for the mis-management that has now occurred.
    If they knew, they would be Browned off like many of us!

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  • 246. At 12:18pm on 27 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    239. At 11:33am on 27 Nov 2008, KAS1865 wrote:
    235

    A few 100,000 Muslims, Trade Unionists and Soap Dodging tree huggers marched to show their support for Muslim extremists, that is hardly representative of the British People as a whole."



    A few 100,000. How many is many in your eyes?

    100,000 troops sounds quite a few. 100,000 casualties also sounds a lot.



    "Im a former Soldier, (23 years Service), my eldest son is currently serving as are two of my Brothers. "



    Wacky do. That doesn't give you any particular insight or wisdom of itself.

    "The work they are doing in Afganistan is crucial to stabilising the area and the help they are giving to local people is rarely, if ever, mentioned."



    The aim of an army is to fight, not to rebuild countries.

    That is why both Afghanistan and Iraq are failures.

    This point was made clear by a US marine asked a fatuos question on nation building -"no sir, we kill people and blow things up"

    "Two things amaze me about people of your ilk,

    1) You moan and whine about the plight of YOUR enemies, while ignoring the efforts of those fighting these wars"


    No one ignores the efforts of those fighting the wars.

    Many of us wish to save their lives and limbs by not having them fight those useless wars.

    People like you amaze me. You seem to enjoy fighting.

    "2) You have trouble finding a shower and a bar of soap, or even a job, but you can find a Demo anywhere on the Planet."


    Oh this is a mature comment is it? And you presonal hygiene is beyond reproach?

    "Do you think the Extremists that have launched attacks in India over night would make a distinction and let you go because you oppose the War in Afganistan or Iraq?"


    What has that got to do with anything? Maybe if there were not wars in Afghanistan and Iraq there would be fewer extremists - thought of that?

    "I remember seeing a "Bumper Sticker" in Virginia this Summer. It showed a Mullah in Islamic dress, with the Slogan, "Vote Democrat and we will behead you last" That just about sums it up "


    Yep, of course many of us do not get our political info from bumper stickers.

    Suggest you do the same

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  • 247. At 12:20pm on 27 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #240 Ed Iglehart


    I'd be a liar if I did so. Your observations may demonstrate that it hasn't turned out quite as intended/expected, but that doesn't by any means disprove the intent

    I did say using the same logic as the anti-Iraq-War people applied to George Bush and Tony Blair on WMD.

    Nobody seems to care about their intent. They actually had evidence supplied by their intelligence agencies for WMD.

    Where was the evidence that it was 'all about oil' ?

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  • 248. At 12:23pm on 27 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    231. At 10:25am on 27 Nov 2008, chill0 wrote:
    #230 eightypercent
    You have still not said whether you are in favour of UK participation in the war in Afghanistan"



    What an idiotic question.

    How can one be in favor of a war? The bombings make nice pictures?

    Presumably what you mean is western policy in Afghanistan which has resulted in a war.

    And no many are opposed to this for the simple reason that like Iraq it is not going to work.

    If you think the US and the UK in the middle of a tough recession are going to pour largesse into these two countries you are tragically mistaken.

    Ditto the idea of magic reinforcements. Countries are looking at cutting back their armed services, not expanding them

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  • 249. At 12:25pm on 27 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    229. At 10:00am on 27 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
    ref #219

    I agree with your latter point, why Ayers is still employed at a university is beyond me.

    I've looked at U.S law there is no legal right to tenure.

    Ayers is a coward and his wife is as well. People of Illnois, please shun them."


    Maybe he is good at his job?

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  • 250. At 12:30pm on 27 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # Ed - Up All Night

    I am so glad that he was as clear as clear can be about the private jets and the bonuses. Good man.

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  • 251. At 12:30pm on 27 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #239 KAS1865
    I am the friendly target to whom Ed Iglehart alludes in #243.

    Despite being something of a soap dodging tree hugger - I am vegan and teetotal - I am and always have been in favour of both the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.

    Read some of my previous posts.

    Apologies for misleading you.

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  • 252. At 12:33pm on 27 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #245 watermanaquarius
    Are you not ashamed of our national patheticness then ?

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  • 253. At 12:41pm on 27 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    247. At 12:20pm on 27 Nov 2008, chill0 wrote:
    #240 Ed Iglehart



    I'd be a liar if I did so. Your observations may demonstrate that it hasn't turned out quite as intended/expected, but that doesn't by any means disprove the intent


    I did say using the same logic as the anti-Iraq-War people applied to George Bush and Tony Blair on WMD.

    Nobody seems to care about their intent. They actually had evidence supplied by their intelligence agencies for WMD.

    Where was the evidence that it was 'all about oil' ?



    Did they? Well since WMDs did not exist, were not likely to have existed they cannot have had any evidence of the kind.

    And if you want to look at how many things the "intelligence community" got wrong over the last thirty years, you will understand why, as an excuse, this does not stand up.

    As regards oil


    Well apart from the fact that Iraq is among the top oil producing nations in the world and the US secured the oil ministry in Baghdad before any other.

    And apart from the fact the US firms lined up for lucrative, preferential contracts in connection with the oil industry (everything from spare parts to catering to security).

    And apart from the fact that anyone who controls the Iraqi governement - controls the national oil supply.

    How much more evidence do you need.

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  • 254. At 12:46pm on 27 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #241 Ed Iglehart

    Until #232, eightypercent was not totally clear. At the end of #230 she said:


    But a nation like Britain is restricted both demographically and financially in the size of military that it can sustain and there is a serious burden on our politicans and their advisers to know exactly where they are going, what they are doing and how they are going to get closure when they commit the country to conflict.

    ...which could be construed to mean that she did not want UK troops in Aghanistan.

    I wanted complete clarity and in the end that is what she gave me for which I am grateful.

    This stems from the many, many weasel words I have heard on Iraq along the lines of Liberal Democrat policy.

    They said that they opposed the war but then when confronted with the alternative - that Saddam Hussein would have remained in power - they said that he would somehow have been overthrown because of the activities of the weapons inspectors.

    I saw both Charles Kennedy and Menzies Campbell interviewed and both offered this line.

    It is a telling characteristic of the anti-Iraq-War people that they will not explore what would have happened if there had been no war.

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  • 255. At 12:51pm on 27 Nov 2008, watermanaquarius wrote:

    chill0 #252

    Unfortunately, I am indeed.
    Left the UK many years ago and maintaining no home there and refusing to change my loyalty and passport to that of my new country of residence find myself a disenfranchised soul.
    Missed the changes of Thatcher.
    So I am pleased to think that Anthony sorry Tony who changed the situation from the mother of all parliaments to the brother of all parliaments and the resulting situation is your cock-up not mine.
    Limp wristed labour whether new or old will always swamp the boat in the long run.

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  • 256. At 12:54pm on 27 Nov 2008, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    # 194 allmymarbles wrote:

    "189, John in Dublin.

    For me, TooTrue and Magic are in Coventry. It was suggested by a blogger that they may have a particular agenda which, by not corresponding with them, is thwarted (my tactic)."

    Don't think I've responded to TrueToo - yet.

    I have responded to Kirin, whilst often pointing out that there seems little point - he continues hurling out prejudice as if it were fact and ignoring any evidence that doesn't suit him

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  • 257. At 1:02pm on 27 Nov 2008, dceilar wrote:

    Chill0

    What's eating at your grape? You look like you just want to argue with people. And on the same old issues.

    BTW I thought eightypercent was very clear in saying that she's in agreement with Obama re: Afghanistan to your carefully worded question. Do you now agree with Xie on everything? I like Xie's comments.

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  • 258. At 1:05pm on 27 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    254. At 12:46pm on 27 Nov 2008, chill0 wrote:
    #241 Ed Iglehart

    Until #232, eightypercent was not totally clear. At the end of #230 she said:



    "But a nation like Britain is restricted both demographically and financially in the size of military that it can sustain and there is a serious burden on our politicans and their advisers to know exactly where they are going, what they are doing and how they are going to get closure when they commit the country to conflict."




    That applies to every country in the world.



    "It is a telling characteristic of the anti-Iraq-War people that they will not explore what would have happened if there had been no war."


    It is more a very telling characteristic of the pro war brigade that having been proved wrong in the event, they still claim to be able to predict the future.

    No one knows whether Saddam Hussein would have stayed in power indefinitely.

    He might have been assassinated (not so unusal in Iraq)

    He might have died of disease, accident


    Top presume he would not have been removed in some manner, given the fate of his predeccessors, is an arrogant judgement.

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  • 259. At 1:14pm on 27 Nov 2008, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    # 207 MagicKirin wrote:

    [Replying to my posting at #189]

    "It was Islamic facists [sic] who launched the terrorist attacks today in India./That is why I have stated that you can't trust Islamic facists [sic] from Hezbollah, Iran Somalia or other parts of the world./This is more evidence why they must be exterminated like the vermin they are./I am watting [sic] for you to absolve these terrorists just like you absolve the Palestinian terrorists."

    I think you will find that you cannot trust any kind of facist [sic]. Or indeed fascist. Regardless of whether they are Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Agnostic or Atheist.

    Perhaps you will be so good as to withdraw your mendacious and slanderous allegation that I 'absolve' terrorism? [I sincerely doubt it however.] I have said little on terrorists, whether Palestinian, Israeli or otherwise, other than to suggest that the situation in the Middle East deserves a rather more subtle and complex approach than your repetitive bleating of 'Israelis Good, Palestinians Bad'.

    You make it clear that in your eyes everything and anything Israel does or has ever done is noble and justified - even ignoring the words of Ben Gurion, who said otherwise. Therefore, to you, anyone who dares be in any way critical of Israel or supportive of the Palestinians becomes a 'supporter of terrorism.'

    "they must be exterminated like the vermin they are"

    I think others have suggested a historical parallel, so I won't bother.

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  • 260. At 1:20pm on 27 Nov 2008, SaintOne wrote:

    Anyone that fully and whole-heartedly supports a war is a rather large fool. The problem is, given the state of the world (and you don't need to look much further than the problems last night in Mumbai), it becomes clear that sometimes war is necassary. Another problem is that the war on Iraq cannot be justified by the reasons given to us in the build up to the war.

    If you take the reasons they use now, such as Saddam had to go, why are the likes of North Korea and Iran left alone? (I hope they are left alone in the sense of warfare, and hope very much more that we can sort things out through diplomacy....optimistic eh....). And what about Zimbabwe? We seem to have forgotten the problems there? Why aren't we liberating them?

    Huam right issues are appauling in many countries. Even if countries such as Russia seem to have a democracy just for show (looks like Putin is going to be president for two more terms which have been extended in length). Not to mention the brain washing camps in Russia that spout out how great Putin is.

    Quite frankly the state of the world is disgusting. But then it probably always has been. And always will be.

    Peace

    (however unlikely!)

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  • 261. At 1:21pm on 27 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #256

    Wrong you have attempted to justify your support of the terrorists who misuse Islam.

    But like many of the extreme left you can't make coherent argument.

    Obama know this which is why he left you all in the play pen and put responsible adults in his cabinent.

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  • 262. At 1:25pm on 27 Nov 2008, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    # 223 KAS1865 wrote:

    Essentially - 'We're doomed! We're doomed! And it's all Obama's fault.'

    [That's a paraphrase.]

    He concludes with "The Democrats should enjoy the next four years, but spare a thought for the next Administration which will have to spend years repairing the damage caused by the incoming administration."

    Here's a better idea. Why not spare a thought for the Obama Administration, which will have to spend years repairing the damage caused by the GW Bush administration.

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  • 263. At 1:26pm on 27 Nov 2008, lochraven wrote:

    #172 gillynz

    You shouldn't be passing judgment on issues you know nothing about. Your comments are just a waste of space.

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  • 264. At 1:37pm on 27 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    259. At 1:14pm on 27 Nov 2008, john-In-Dublin wrote:
    # 207 MagicKirin wrote:

    I would ignore this idiot.

    The way he is going on he will end up being arrested.

    What the moderators are doing allowing such views pollute the bolg is amazing

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  • 265. At 1:38pm on 27 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #259

    There have been no terrorist attacks from Israel in the last 20 years.

    They have been attacking military targets.

    They do not walk into mosques and blow themselves up.

    Get off your moral equvilency kick, there is a right side in the war on terrorism

    U.S,U.K India and Israel are on the right side

    Hezbollah, The Palestinians(they chose Hamas) and Iran are on the wrong side.

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  • 266. At 1:48pm on 27 Nov 2008, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    # 261 MagicKirin wrote:

    [Replying to mine at #256]

    "Wrong you have attempted to justify your support of the terrorists who misuse Islam.

    But like many of the extreme left you can't make coherent argument [sic]."

    I believe it was Goebbels who put forward the theory of 'The Big Lie'. That if you keep repeating a lie for long enough, people will believe it.

    Once again, Ubermensch, you are engaging in slanderous, mendacious porkies. But don't let the facts confuse you - or bother proving evidence for any of your untruths.

    "But like many of the extreme left you can't make coherent argument."

    That is hilarious coming from you!

    [a] I am about as 'extreme left' as Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton

    [b] Like many of the extreme right, not only can you not 'make coherent argument [sic]', you cannot even write coherent, grammatical and correctly punctuated English.

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  • 267. At 1:51pm on 27 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Sarah has a few thankfulnesses to add to Sam's list:

    "“The first thankfulness being that I’m thankful for this turkey, and also too for the metal funnel thingy that cut the turkey’s head clean off while it was flapping its wings trying to get out and all. That was fun.

    The next thankfulness being that I’m thankful that Levi is going to marry our Bristol, and I’m hoping also that we’ll know soon what his location is."
    Peace and Thankfulness
    ed

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  • 268. At 1:55pm on 27 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    80% (and all members of the Squirrel Party)

    Radio4

    Boom!

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  • 269. At 1:56pm on 27 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    263 lochraven

    Pots and kettles
    Pots and kettles

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  • 270. At 2:01pm on 27 Nov 2008, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    # 196 TrueToo wrote:

    "189. john-In-Dublin,

    There are a number of Palestinian supporting regulars on this site who really do spray venom all over the place. Maybe you should be criticising them. They have the barefaced cheek to state that the establishment of Israel was a "mistake" and single Israel out for condemnation, when all around her there are countries that have barely emerged from the Middle Ages with their lack of concern for human rights and democracy and their brutal suppression of their own people."

    1. Thanks ever so for telling me whom I should be criticising. You'll understand if I make my own mind up

    2. You imply that Kirin, to whom I was responding, doesn't 'really ...spray venom all over the place'. In fact he does little else.

    3. "They have the barefaced cheek to state that the establishment of Israel was a "mistake" " - you say.

    It's a free country. They're entitled to their opinion. You are entitled to argue against it. As I recall, someone quoted from a Jewish politician in the UK around the time of the Balfour Declaration who was opposed to a Jewish State. Presumably this was "barefaced cheek" too?

    4. You describe at some length how awful Syria is, inter alia. You may be right. I daresay Israel is a much better place to live. But Syria is a dictatorship, and AFAIK part of the so-called Axis of Elvis. Israel is a democracy which sees itself as an ally of 'the West', including the US, and which receives vast amounts of US aid. It seems reasonable to me that it should be held to a higher standard than Syria. For example, if someone criticises US policies on the death penalty, I doubt they'll be much impressed by the response 'Well - at least we're better than China'....

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  • 271. At 2:01pm on 27 Nov 2008, SaintOne wrote:

    #265

    "They have been attacking military targets.

    They do not walk into mosques and blow themselves up."

    I'm not going to debate whether this is true or not (I can personally see your arguement). The fact is what the Palestinians didn't do was set up a country in Israel. Or the UK. Or America.

    The sheer audacity of it is quite amazing

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  • 272. At 2:18pm on 27 Nov 2008, frayedcat wrote:

    I am of the opinion 'war on terror' won't solve the root of the problem. "In politics, as in religion, it is equally absurd to aim at making proselytes by fire and sword. Heresies in either can rarely be cured by persecution."
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 1, October 27, 1787

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  • 273. At 2:23pm on 27 Nov 2008, KAS1865 wrote:

    OH JOY

    Just listening to Radio 4 and it seems that the idea of National Service is being muted in both the UK and US

    This is being supported by pieces in a few Newspapers in Great Britain.

    The irony of the US introducing Conscription under an Obama Presidency fills me with joy. Just the fact that it appears to be a topic for discussion in Washignton and London should ring alarm bells with the gullable who voted for Obama.

    Personally I think its a wonderful idea, most of America's soap dodging Peaceniks will run away to Mexico, (Canada has already made it clear it will not shelter anyone due for Service unlike she did during the Vietnam War).
    It will also have a similar impact on the UK where many that are here for economic reasons would pack their bags and jump back onto the lorries heading for France.

    Many of our feckless and ferrel youth would have to actually do something for their Nation than expecting the Nation to do it all for them. It would also give them the chance to fight and use guns legally, instead of killing indiscriminately on our streets.
    Realisticly I know its unlikely to actually happen, (more unlikely here than in the US anyway) but I, for one, would love to see it. Perhaps it would help reintroduce the moral fibres into our young that years of misplaced liberalism have eroded

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  • 274. At 2:29pm on 27 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 268 Boom, Boom !

    I heard it but I wish they'd stop boasting about eating them. Horrible.

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  • 275. At 2:31pm on 27 Nov 2008, dceilar wrote:

    #265

    Wasn't Israel a country that was founded on terrorism?

    You know what they say: 'Live by the sword . . . .'

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  • 276. At 2:47pm on 27 Nov 2008, frayedcat wrote:

    I think the Ku Klux Klan is perhaps the US' most famous terrorist group.

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  • 277. At 2:56pm on 27 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #241 Ed Iglehart


    As previously noted, support for the troops and support for war are two quite different things.

    In the Guardian poll the respondents were asked 'When do you think British and American troops should pull out of Iraq'. 27% of them said Now; 15% said 'Within 6 months' and 51% said 'Stay as long as is considered necessary'.

    In the poll on Afghanistan 68% of respondents said UK troops should pull out within a year.

    Whatever you regard as the underlying beliefs of those respondents about the value of the war, their immediate meaning is crystal clear.

    ...Personally, I prefer the "people" route to engaging militarily in a situation which has repeatedly proved insoluble by military means...

    The "people" route needs security. Where does it come from ? Especially, in the case you cite, when the Taleban are specifically against education for girls and that is a major issue into which they have put a good deal of destructive effort.

    There is no question - nor was there ever in my mind - of simply 'winning a victory' in either Afghanistan or Iraq. What is required is a major cultural shift.

    The major cultural shift in both cases is essentially democratic. In effect, the Taleban is a fascist organisation. It simply imposes its will by force. The villagers of Iraq may share many of the Taleban's beliefs but they do not (so far as I can judge) want the Taleban to rule them.

    Afghan society does want educated women and a more open society, or at least that is what is reported.

    To do that needs security around the infrastructure and educational, medical, etc. projects. The British army recently escorted a huge turbine for a power station through 'enemy territory'. The Taleban wanted to destroy it because they don't want the Afghan government to get the credit for supplying power to the people. (that could be a song).

    The alternatives I see are a long-term military presence in considerable force or a Somalia-like situation.

    Iraq is completely different. There they show signs of taking to democratic institutions with one notable exception. That notable exception is Moqtada Sadr. He wants the foreign troops out so that he can dominate by force of arms. It is fascism again. It is not what the Iraqi people - given the choice at the ballot box - wanted.

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  • 278. At 2:57pm on 27 Nov 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    It's too bad tha having spent so much time in the US studying the election, you didn't ever probe deeper to understand the underlying roots of the system that gives context to what it all means and how it all makes perfect sense Mr. Webb. Nor did BBC hire the kind of people who could have helped out in that area the way the major US networks did. Your subsititute? Ted Koppel and free references to US media and their expert opinions like this one. It's been like someone who observes a rash, fever, and other symptoms without understanding the underlying bacteria that causes measles. Superficial. Inadequate.

    It should come as no surprise that President elect Obama is not and will not be the European clone many on the other side of the pond hope and expect him to be. Nor will he be the radical left wing looney those of that political stripe in the US who supported him hoped for and expected too. Instead, he will prove an average American politician no better than some, no worse than others. He will get the traditional "honeymoon" period new presidents always get and he will make many compromises with both the opposite party and with Congress all presidents have to in order to get anything done. In the end, he will have a large team of advise who will give him a huge menu of options to choose from and he will use his judgement however good or flawed to pick from them and live with the consequences. And he will make mistakes.

    The US auto industry will be bailed out for many reasons. Jobs, national defense, the traditional love affair Americans have with their cars, and much more. But the auto company execs will have to do better than fly into Washington DC with nothing but their hubris and their hat in hand to get the 25 billion they want and need and probably in the long run a lot more. Their plight is only partly of their own making and they will be expected to identify that part, recognize and admit it, and propose a plan to correct it. Contrition for mistakes is a major element of American culture and so far they've shown none. It's what gives those in a position to decide their fate hope that the same mistakes won't be made again.

    Despite the rhetoric and seeming animousity during the campaign, in a crisis Americans invariably come together. On many issues McCain and Obama were not all that far apart. Obama is after all an American who sees the world through American eyes and therefore can never be Gordon Brown. It's not something we have to hope for, we know we can rely on it because it's a simple fact of nature.

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  • 279. At 2:58pm on 27 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    273. At 2:23pm on 27 Nov 2008, KAS1865 wrote:
    OH JOY

    Just listening to Radio 4 and it seems that the idea of National Service is being muted in both the UK and US

    This is being supported by pieces in a few Newspapers in Great Britain.

    The irony of the US introducing Conscription under an Obama Presidency fills me with joy. Just the fact that it appears to be a topic for discussion in Washignton and London should ring alarm bells with the gullable who voted for Obama.

    Personally I think its a wonderful idea, most of America's soap dodging Peaceniks will run away to Mexico, (Canada has already made it clear it will not shelter anyone due for Service unlike she did during the Vietnam War).
    It will also have a similar impact on the UK where many that are here for economic reasons would pack their bags and jump back onto the lorries heading for France."



    Just a question, but are there any people in the world you do like?

    And do you really think, really, in a time of severe economic downturn they are going to reintroduce conscription?

    Are you actually that unaware?

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  • 280. At 2:59pm on 27 Nov 2008, SaintOne wrote:

    To #273

    While national service can instill discipline which some would argue is needed, your points are quite atrocious.

    The chance to fight and use guns legally? Are you completely insane?! You do realize that nations that allow citizens to legally carry guns have a much higher murder rate than in the UK?

    And you notion that it would stop them killing indiscrimnently is also absurd. Giving people guns legally that they would use illegally is not going to stop them killing. It will have the opposite effect.

    I have nothing against the army, I was a cadet in my youth and have several friends in the army. I applaud their sacrifices and commitment. But your a total fool if you think people that do not wish to fight, shoot at or kill people are without moral fibre.

    It is people like you and those like you on what you would call of "other side" (Palestine etc) that cause all these conflicts.

    Muppet.

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  • 281. At 3:10pm on 27 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 273

    Think hard before you rejoice at the idea of National Service at this time of war.

    There is enough trouble now in rehabilitating many of our warriors back into civilian life without packing uncommited youngsters off to the deserts or the mountains.

    A huge human lesson was meant to have been learned during the Vietnam War and I doubt whether it has passed our political leaders by.

    You say you write from the UK - and as you have knowledge of military matters you will acknowledge the debt that we already owe but have trouble in paying to our Gurkha and Fijiian soldiers.

    And the Irish (assuming you were listening to the same programme as I) have a tradition of signing up - my County Donegal grandfather did just that and lied about his age to get accepted.

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  • 282. At 3:14pm on 27 Nov 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    #273 KAS1865:

    "The irony of the US introducing Conscription under an Obama Presidency fills me with joy. Just the fact that it appears to be a topic for discussion in Washignton and London should ring alarm bells with the gullable who voted for Obama."

    I guess you are talking about Obama's idea for a 'civilian volunteer force', you know the thing that was raised during the campaign, and discussed here more than once, not to mention in other places and often in horrified tones by your right wing compatriots.
    I'm sure that during the election you largely ignored whatever Obama had to say but please don't assume everyone else is as unaware as yourself.

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  • 283. At 3:25pm on 27 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #260 SaintOne
    The key to Iraq for me is that Saddam Hussein had a history of massacring his people in tens of thousands (see Operation Anfal and the 'arabisation' of the Kurds).

    He had to do that because the oil was underneath them and he wanted unrestricted access to the oil.

    He also had Iran - a huge Shi'a nation - next door which had every reason to stir up trouble with the Shi'a in the south of Iraq, hence the 'pacification' of the south.

    As soon as the sanctions were lifted and he had a few quid to spend, there was going to be a lot fo death. Only the no-fly zones had stopped the killing after the first gulf war. I note that 'no-fly' zones were a proposal Joe Biden considered for Darfur because of their success in Iraq.

    I don't think any of the cases you cited approaches the kind of mass murder that had been perpetrated in Iraq.

    Ed Iglehart probably won't explain the 'Two Wrongs' fallacy to you because you're singing his song but your approach is also logically flawed.

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  • 284. At 3:31pm on 27 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    278. At 2:57pm on 27 Nov 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    It's too bad tha having spent so much time in the US studying the election, you didn't ever probe deeper to understand the underlying roots of the system that gives context to what it all means and how it all makes perfect sense Mr. Webb. Nor did BBC hire the kind of people who could have helped out in that area the way the major US networks did. Your subsititute? Ted Koppel and free references to US media and their expert opinions like this one. It's been like someone who observes a rash, fever, and other symptoms without understanding the underlying bacteria that causes measles. Superficial. Inadequate.

    It should come as no surprise that President elect Obama is not and will not be the European clone many on the other side of the pond hope and expect him to be. Nor will he be the radical left wing looney those of that political stripe in the US who supported him hoped for and expected too. Instead, he will prove an average American politician no better than some, no worse than others. He will get the traditional "honeymoon" period new presidents always get and he will make many compromises with both the opposite party and with Congress all presidents have to in order to get anything done. In the end, he will have a large team of advise who will give him a huge menu of options to choose from and he will use his judgement however good or flawed to pick from them and live with the consequences. And he will make mistakes.


    Sorry what were you saying about "superficial" inadequate?

    "He will make mistakes", wow how profound.

    I don't think Justin's job is under challenge so far

    "American who sees the world through American eyes and therefore can never be Gordon Brown. It's not something we have to hope for, we know we can rely on it because it's a simple fact of nature."


    SO all this complex and detailed statement says is that Obama is an American.

    Wonderful. So comforting to learn that politcal analysis is so sophisticated in the US.

    Next we will be told he is a man. And that means he is different to a woman.



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  • 285. At 3:35pm on 27 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    Mark Crose, I have every hope that he will be better than most.

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  • 286. At 3:36pm on 27 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    The following post is approved by the censor of James Renold China:
    105. At 2:15pm on 10 Nov 2008, WaveyDavey007 wrote:
    Timbatu - # 96 was a right load of rubbish !!
    -----------------------------

    This pure personal attack OBVIOUSLY does not violate BBC house rule!

    Europeans come to China with condescending views to lecture us. Now we see how these Christians tolerate disagreeing views.

    What is your fear? Do you fear truth?

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  • 287. At 3:48pm on 27 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Chill0,

    "The "people" route needs security. Where does it come from ? Especially, in the case you cite, when the Taleban are specifically against education for girls and that is a major issue into which they have put a good deal of destructive effort."
    1. "The Taliban" are not uniform nor monolithic.
    2. The schools have the blessing of the local "taliban", and the project was actually begun before the ill-considered and hastily undertaken invasion of 2001.
    3. Follow the links and info provided before presuming to understand situations remote from your own experience.

    Peace and education
    ed

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  • 288. At 3:52pm on 27 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Chill0,

    "The villagers of Iraq may share many of the Taleban's beliefs but they do not (so far as I can judge) want the Taleban to rule them."
    Careless thinking leads to careless typing. The parenthetical disclaimer should be emphasised

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  • 289. At 3:55pm on 27 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 282

    I am at a loss to understand the rightwing hysteria at Obama's pledge to re-inforce the national protection force.

    With fires in California (and other places), floods in New Orleans and Florida (and other places) national emergencies and all the rest, it would seem to me to be a good solid proposal to have good, solid people trained up to deal with whatever might arrive on their doorsteps.

    Dear rightwingers - this is not a loss of your rights - it is a sensible proposal to protect you and your families. Don't throw away with baby with the bathwater.

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  • 290. At 4:01pm on 27 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Chill0,

    "Ed Iglehart probably won't explain the 'Two Wrongs' fallacy to you because you're singing his song but your approach is also logically flawed."
    I don't need to, since you so clearly provide examples with every post: "Saddam was Evil, so whatever we do (including any (unfortunate but inevitable) evils arising) to rid the world of him is justified..."

    Peace and clear rhetoric
    ed

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  • 291. At 4:01pm on 27 Nov 2008, SaintOne wrote:

    To #283 chil0

    I'm pretty sure there have been millions of deaths due to starvation in North Korea thanks to Kim Jong-il's flawed, selfish policies. I'm also sure that Mugabe's regieme is responsible for mass murders.

    Whether or not these amount to the deaths that Saddam was responsible for is irelevant. Any of these deaths were unecessary.

    You are the one with flawed logic. If Saddam killed one more person than Kim Jong-il or Mugabe, he is therefore worse? No, they are both equally evil.

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  • 292. At 4:02pm on 27 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    283. At 3:25pm on 27 Nov 2008, chill0 wrote:
    #260 SaintOne
    The key to Iraq for me is that Saddam Hussein had a history of massacring his people in tens of thousands (see Operation Anfal and the 'arabisation' of the Kurds).

    He had to do that because the oil was underneath them and he wanted unrestricted access to the oil."




    He had unrestricted access to the oil. And if it escaped you the Kurds were involved in major insurgency in Iraq and Turkey and Iran and Syria.

    The Turks are still attacking, apparently with US permission.

    So much for the Kurds and their welfare. Total hypocrisy




    "He also had Iran - a huge Shi'a nation - next door which had every reason to stir up trouble with the Shi'a in the south of Iraq, hence the 'pacification' of the south."



    Hardly since Iran had been there for decades. The "pacification" came about as a direct result of the first Gulf war - not the Iran-Iraq war.



    "As soon as the sanctions were lifted and he had a few quid to spend, there was going to be a lot fo death. Only the no-fly zones had stopped the killing after the first gulf war. I note that 'no-fly' zones were a proposal Joe Biden considered for Darfur because of their success in Iraq."



    Well that is interesting since Iraq was subjected to some of the heaviest bombing since the Vietnam war and thousands were killed at this time.

    By the US and UK airforces.

    Just because the US or UK do it does not mean killing can be discounted.



    "I don't think any of the cases you cited approaches the kind of mass murder that had been perpetrated in Iraq."



    That depends. There has been no agreed figure for deaths in Iraq and noone has a clear idea of what took place. Curiously the US interfered in the excavation of some "mass graves" and the figures quickly dropped out of the limelight.




    "Ed Iglehart probably won't explain the 'Two Wrongs' fallacy to you because you're singing his song but your approach is also logically flawed. "



    And you still do not answer the question of how can you be sure about SH's fate and future, when the pro war brigade were wrong about everything else to do with Iraq.

    Logical fallacy there surely.


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  • 293. At 4:15pm on 27 Nov 2008, SaintOne wrote:

    #283

    O yes and lets not forget our (Britains) retaliation to the blitz. We racked up quite a death toll compared to the Luftwaffe. So by your logic we are the worse ones? (well in my opinion we were just as bad...)

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  • 294. At 4:18pm on 27 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    287. At 3:48pm on 27 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:
    Chill0,

    "The "people" route needs security. Where does it come from ? Especially, in the case you cite, when the Taleban are specifically against education for girls and that is a major issue into which they have put a good deal of destructive effort."
    1. "The Taliban" are not uniform nor monolithic.
    2. The schools have the blessing of the local "taliban", and the project was actually begun before the ill-considered and hastily undertaken invasion of 2001.
    3. Follow the links and info provided before presuming to understand situations remote from your own experience.

    Peace and education"



    It is scraping the barrell to the extreme to claim that bombing wedding parties etc in Afghanistan, then lying about trhe number of casualties, is OK becasue the coalition forces support the education of "Wimmin".



    The main challenges that face the women of Afghanistan, the vast majority, is getting enough food, heating and medical care.

    Not what they wear, harsh adultery laws or even "security" etc

    Or to put it simply, total lack of money. And nothing the coalition is doing will solve this problem.

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  • 295. At 4:19pm on 27 Nov 2008, KAS1865 wrote:

    282

    AsaScot

    I am referring to Conscription into the Armed Forces, not some Mickey Mouse Civilian Force that will have a Domestic Role dealing with Hurricanes and floods.

    Conscription would bolster the numbers needed to effectively deal with Iraq, Afganistan and, who knows where.

    Even Obama realises that withdrawal from Iraq would be calmitous, and as he has stated the Military in Afganistan needs to be boosted.

    These additional personel need to come from somewhere and "Conscription" would deal with this problem and numerous domestic issues.

    But as i said i doubt it would ever really happen, sadly

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  • 296. At 4:32pm on 27 Nov 2008, SaintOne wrote:

    To # 282

    Your arguement sounds like if you give people guns, it will solve problems. I think it may be the other way round.

    And forcing people to fight is wrong. Yes the army instills discipline which some could argue is needed for alot of people, but just because some people choose not to fight does not make them lack moral fibre.

    Now I have friends in the army, and I applaud their courage and sacrifice, but it's not for everyone and it should not be forced upon anyone.

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  • 297. At 4:36pm on 27 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    295. At 4:19pm on 27 Nov 2008, KAS1865 wrote:
    282

    AsaScot

    I am referring to Conscription into the Armed Forces, not some Mickey Mouse Civilian Force that will have a Domestic Role dealing with Hurricanes and floods.

    Conscription would bolster the numbers needed to effectively deal with Iraq, Afganistan and, who knows where.

    Even Obama realises that withdrawal from Iraq would be calmitous, and as he has stated the Military in Afganistan needs to be boosted.

    These additional personel need to come from somewhere and "Conscription" would deal with this problem and numerous domestic issues. "




    But it would still have to be paid for and there is no question of that.

    People in the US etc are focussed on their jobs houses etc, not Afghanistan

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  • 298. At 4:39pm on 27 Nov 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    #295 KAS1865:

    "I am referring to Conscription into the Armed Forces, not some Mickey Mouse Civilian Force that will have a Domestic Role dealing with Hurricanes and floods."

    So you can provide a link/source where Obama has mentioned military conscription? And what exactly is Mickey Mouse about a force for dealing with domestic emergencies? Or do you advocate the Bush approach of just abandoning people to their fate ala New Orleans?

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  • 299. At 4:44pm on 27 Nov 2008, SaintOne wrote:

    In response to my previous comment, it was not to #282, but to #295, apologies!

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  • 300. At 4:48pm on 27 Nov 2008, dceilar wrote:

    #273 KAS1865

    I don't know what makes you think that the Armed Services want conscription! They don't want unwilling personnel that will be hard to train, hard to keep in check, and don't want to fight.

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  • 301. At 4:54pm on 27 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #287 Ed Iglehart
    You did not mention girls.

    This article from 2007 does. It is about the Taleban building schools.


    ... they would start with schools for boys only and would establish girls' schools later on.

    When they were in power, the Taleban sometimes pledged to build girls' schools once things became more peaceful, but never did.

    This article from May 2008 mentions schools as well.

    The security situation is now so bad in Kandahar province that nearly half of all schools are closed some or all of the time. Girls' classes have been particularly badly hit because women teachers are too afraid to venture into rural districts where the Taleban is strong, threatening one of the successes of post-2001 Afghanistan.

    The Taleban are very good at spin.

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  • 302. At 4:56pm on 27 Nov 2008, hms_shannon wrote:

    Own up...

    Who let Marcus out...

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  • 303. At 5:06pm on 27 Nov 2008, selfevidenttruths wrote:

    294 simon:

    Amongst the many challenges of being a woman in Afghanistan is that of walking down the road without getting acid thrown in your face.

    In general: Remember the previous Taliban government? Not a nice lot. Should we be there, and can we make a difference? I don't know. If we are doing good, then I want us to stay. If we are just making things worse, then I guess we should go. It will take much more than military action, of that much I am sure.



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  • 304. At 5:10pm on 27 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #290 Ed Iglehart


    I don't need to, since you so clearly provide examples with every post: "Saddam was Evil, so whatever we do (including any (unfortunate but inevitable) evils arising) to rid the world of him is justified..."

    I have made it clear many times that if it were simply that Saddam Hussein was evil, it is not in itself justification for invasion.

    The key is the number of people he killed.

    Intervention in another sovereign nation is a serious matter and needs serious justification.

    Saddam Hussein gave two clear justifications:

    - He killed his people in large numbers
    - He wanted WMD and was psychopathic enough to use it (as he had already proven)

    The same is true in Darfur. The government is killing its people in large numbers. There should have been an intervention there.

    That there has not is due to the political climate created by the anti-Iraq-War campaign.

    If the Iraq War had been lauded in western countries for the toppling of a mass murdering dictator, it would have warned every other mass murdering dictator that they would potentially be deposed and tried.

    Instead the anti-Iraq-War campaign gave the impression that if you make the right noises you will get away with it but whatever happens, you will not be attacked. Omar Bashir has learned that lesson well.

    The ethical dilemma posed by sacrificing one person to save two gets no answer from you. You will reply with 'the Iraq War killed lots of people and it was therefore not justified'.

    I have gone into great detail elsewhere (you have seen it) about casualties in Iraq the vast majority of whom were killed by Al Qaeda and the insurgents anyway. That was their choice because they wanted power.

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  • 305. At 5:12pm on 27 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #288 Ed Iglehart


    "The villagers of Iraq may share many of the Taleban's beliefs but they do not (so far as I can judge) want the Taleban to rule them."
    Careless thinking leads to careless typing. The parenthetical disclaimer should be emphasised

    Actually, I don't need to judge. There was an election.

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  • 306. At 5:13pm on 27 Nov 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Simple Simon

    Political analysis is very sophisticated in the US, far moreso than in Europe. Europeans cheered Obama in Berlin without understanding one word he said. Had they listened, they might not have been so unreserved in their enthusiasm for him. In many ways, his views and policies will be no different from President Bush's. In some ways from Europe's point of view they are likely to be far worse. He is a protectionist and may not be so ready to continue the policies of free trade that hurt his constituents and core supporters in the US labor sector.

    Europeans seem to think that they have cornered the market on knowledge and wisdom when in fact they have neither. Their governments act irrationally many times and their peoples have often proven themselves ingnorant, intolerant, even vindictive. In the end, the US will act in its own interest no matter who is president. That is guaranteed by the requirement in the Constitution that the President of the United Stated must be born in the US. This is why neither Arnold Schwartznegger nor Madelinge Albright can ever be president and it's something Americans should not tinker with. The founding fathers knew exactly what they were doing when they wrote that clause.

    I think Europeans who expect Obama to act more sympathetically to their own cause and along lines of their own points of view are in for a shock and a rude awakening. Time will tell. The news is still dominated by the afterglow of the election. Winning office is one thing, running one an entirely different matter. You can already see signs that reality is beginning to creep into the psyche and rhetoric of Obama. Look at whom he is choosing for his closest advisors. It will be business as usual...and worse.

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  • 307. At 5:17pm on 27 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #291 SaintOne
    So all people who kill, no matter how many others they kill, one person or millions, are equally culpable ?

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  • 308. At 5:27pm on 27 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Chill0,

    "#287 Ed Iglehart
    You did not mention girls."
    I didn't need to. The link provided does.

    And, whatever may be happening in Kandahar may (or may not) have much to do with what is happening in Nuristan. Like I said, it's complex and very likely beyond your direct experience.

    Peace and Humility
    ed

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  • 309. At 5:48pm on 27 Nov 2008, talkinghorse wrote:

    #307

    yes

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  • 310. At 5:50pm on 27 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    86 Chillo you mock some for saying the war was over oil.
    true it was over another country and the fears it has.but we wont go there.
    the oil though , you show as an example to back up the "reality" a Chinese oil company getting the field.
    What has a chinese company going in in 2008 have to do with the invasion .

    Is it not possible that reality could include the idea that they did want oil, they did expect to get oil.
    But they made a mistake.
    they thought too positively about their chances of taking the country securing the country and getting the country to like them.

    It does not mean that they had no intention of getting that oil.

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  • 311. At 6:11pm on 27 Nov 2008, Reuben wrote:

    Who said that the war in Afghanistan was about oil?

    There is no oil under Afghani soil.

    For centuries the main reason that Afghanistan was so isolated and ignored by the rest of the world is that they have nothing of value.

    The only big export from Afghanistan is Opium. Not exactly a commodity that governments or global conglomerates covet.

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  • 312. At 6:12pm on 27 Nov 2008, dceilar wrote:

    #307 Chill0

    What the Dickens are you on about? That bears no relation to what the saint said at #291.

    Perhaps you are replying to what you wanted him to write.

    Anyway, did the Iraqis and Afghanis have a choice in being invaded and shot at? No. Do animals have a choice in being killed? No. Shouldn't you have opposed these wars?

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  • 313. At 6:15pm on 27 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    180

    Aqua, my problem is that he was a good man.

    I see people that ignore the good in favour of the bully are weak cowards , normally.

    It seems to me that If the nation wanted a caring type the Establishment should have accepted that.

    A bit like why does a woman have to become "manly" to get power.

    Rather than saying " you can't pee high enough" they should lower the bog.
    (think school kids in front of trough urinals)

    We the electorate can change one person, the president.

    But as some fear what is the point if washington doesn't change.

    America doesn't change.

    That witch that went on line to harass a teen until she commited suicide WILL get a book deal.

    Dick Cheney will not go to jail

    Again I say it was not Jimmy that was wrong for America, but america that was WRONG.


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  • 314. At 6:19pm on 27 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    "304. At 5:10pm on 27 Nov 2008, chill0 wrote:

    #290 Ed Iglehart


    I don't need to, since you so clearly provide examples with every post: "Saddam was Evil, so whatever we do (including any (unfortunate but inevitable) evils arising) to rid the world of him is justified..."


    I have made it clear many times that if it were simply that Saddam Hussein was evil, it is not in itself justification for invasion.

    The key is the number of people he killed.

    Intervention in another sovereign nation is a serious matter and needs serious justification.

    Saddam Hussein gave two clear justifications:

    - He killed his people in large numbers
    - He wanted WMD and was psychopathic enough to use it (as he had already proven)"
    If you can't recognise the "two wrongs" fallacy in that, you don't understand it.

    Peace is better than war (but makes far less money)
    ed

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  • 315. At 6:23pm on 27 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    183 like fast food isn't part of the problem (i'm positive)

    186

    no thanks to the hatred you build in people .

    reference to past comments on the so called Pro Isreali bloggers(we have a new one zebadnads) that cause more anger than understanding

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  • 316. At 6:27pm on 27 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    182 when exactly did carter


    "shown blantant hate for Israel."


    Is asking for the UN decisions to be recognised a sign of Hatred?

    last time I checked it was not.
    In fact last time I checked your comment could be considered libellous .

    Bring some proof to the table.

    Though I did hear you call for "vermin to be exterminated"

    but never anything from Carter on destroying Israel.

    Oh sorry ,inconvenient really isn't it.

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  • 317. At 6:29pm on 27 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    188 Water man, I'm touched.


    lol some have said that for ages

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  • 318. At 6:38pm on 27 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    189
    John in Dublin.

    A mirror won't work.

    He casts no reflection if you know what I mean.

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  • 319. At 6:45pm on 27 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    196 truepooh

    where did they say the establishment of Israel was a mistake?

    one quote please.

    I have heard it ventured that Isreal was created by using the methods of terrorism, yes.
    I have heard that they have not behaved with much understanding of those they displaces,yes.

    I have heard(by me ) that you wouldn't like it if Israel had been created in your land, yes.

    But now you raise the issue maybe it was.

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  • 320. At 6:48pm on 27 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    191 zebadnads you brought it up. again.


    there is a connection though . After all they did attack a jewish building(I heard it on the news, I don't know how buildings get religious).

    I suspect that there is some connection in the minds of the crazy gunmen that did this.

    And obviously you thought there was.

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  • 321. At 7:21pm on 27 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    208 marbles sorry you are right ,

    259 John in dublin
    "I think you will find that you cannot trust any kind of facist [sic]. Or indeed fascist. Regardless of whether they are Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Agnostic or Atheist."

    thanks for saving me the typing.


    265 thankyou Gherkin for making the admission that Israel participated in terrorism.
    that was almost reasonable of you.
    As for sides go to the UK and shout your crap out. see how much support you get.

    And please leave other countries out of your madness, you know nothing of them.

    And Again I will say it is the likes of you and the "war" you brought that causes this as much as the Extremists.
    they are extremists against something , something incites them, Again I suggest it is the like of you.

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  • 322. At 7:24pm on 27 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    278 mostly wrong so nice to see you still can't get it right.
    PS that bacteria you mentioned, ITS A VIRUS.

    opps sorry marbles just one for old times

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  • 323. At 7:30pm on 27 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    273 KrAS

    when did you do your national service?

    where did you serve.

    just that no one I have met in the UK that did NS was too complimentary about it. just all those that just missed it. who like to keep on about it as if they knew.

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  • 324. At 7:39pm on 27 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    295 the reason conscription will not happen.

    the law

    all regardless of sex will have to be included.

    and the west is not so open as to let women fight on the battlefield yet.

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  • 325. At 7:41pm on 27 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    pro conscription.


    think! that would mean people like me would be trained killers.

    sleep well

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  • 326. At 7:47pm on 27 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    311

    invasive species

    Afghanistan has no oil.
    but it is really well places for a pipeline.

    as for opium they do covet it but not enough to fight for it.

    Where else do you get the pain killers to help injured soldiers from.

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  • 327. At 8:11pm on 27 Nov 2008, dceilar wrote:

    #323 JacksForge

    My father-in-law did National Service. He loved it. Mind you, he worked very long hours in his father's cafe so he treated NS as a two year holiday!! He worked in the medics corp and saw no action though. Also, he nuts!

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  • 328. At 8:43pm on 27 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    311. At 6:11pm on 27 Nov 2008, GreySquirrel1867 wrote:
    Who said that the war in Afghanistan was about oil?

    There is no oil under Afghani soil.

    For centuries the main reason that Afghanistan was so isolated and ignored by the rest of the world is that they have nothing of value.

    The only big export from Afghanistan is Opium. Not exactly a commodity that governments or global conglomerates covet."



    Well it ain't all consumed in Afghanistan is it Sonny Jim.

    And isn't Karzai a former oil man and isn't there supposed to be a new oil pipe built through the country.

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  • 329. At 8:43pm on 27 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    327

    lol ,

    refuge from the mines would be a good excuse for enjoying it as well.

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  • 330. At 8:46pm on 27 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    307. At 5:17pm on 27 Nov 2008, chill0 wrote:
    #291 SaintOne
    So all people who kill, no matter how many others they kill, one person or millions, are equally culpable ?"


    What is your scale? 4 million dead in the COngo and rising, but no invasion, no overwhelming sense of saving lives.

    Are Iraqi lives worth more? Why?

    Haiti wallows in chaos and death, but no life saving misson.

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  • 331. At 8:52pm on 27 Nov 2008, selfevidenttruths wrote:

    325 jack:

    lol

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  • 332. At 8:57pm on 27 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    306. At 5:13pm on 27 Nov 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    Simple Simon


    Wow touched a nerve have I?

    I thought Americans as you understood them were not supposed to get riled soeasily.



    "Political analysis is very sophisticated in the US, far moreso than in Europe."



    Ho ho Not even most Americans would claim this.




    "Europeans cheered Obama in Berlin without understanding one word he said. Had they listened, they might not have been so unreserved in their enthusiasm for him. In many ways, his views and policies will be no different from President Bush's."



    Yes he spokein Berlin didn't he.

    That's in Europe isn't it?

    John McCain was accused of being like Bush,not Obama, did you miss that?



    " In some ways from Europe's point of view they are likely to be far worse. He is a protectionist and may not be so ready to continue the policies of free trade that hurt his constituents and core supporters in the US labor sector."


    Is he? I thought you and others were accusing him of being a "liberal" which seems to mean something like a devil.

    I don't know where he said he was a protectionist - anyway that battle is long over

    "Europeans seem to think that they have cornered the market on knowledge and wisdom when in fact they have neither. "


    Well when compared to people like you.

    "Their governments act irrationally many times and their peoples have often proven themselves ingnorant, intolerant, even vindictive. In the end, the US will act in its own interest no matter who is president. That is guaranteed by the requirement in the Constitution that the President of the United Stated must be born in the US. This is why neither Arnold Schwartznegger nor Madelinge Albright can ever be president and it's something Americans should not tinker with. The founding fathers knew exactly what they were doing when they wrote that clause."


    Are you drunk? What does this drivel actually mean?

    Yes in Europe we've moved on,you don't have to be born in a country to do well in its politics. This has been so for decades.

    "I think Europeans who expect Obama to act more sympathetically to their own cause and along lines of their own points of view are in for a shock and a rude awakening. Time will tell."



    Obama isn't not anti-European he knows where it is unlike many Americans

    "The news is still dominated by the afterglow of the election. Winning office is one thing, running one an entirely different matter. You can already see signs that reality is beginning to creep into the psyche and rhetoric of Obama. Look at whom he is choosing for his closest advisors. It will be business as usual...and worse."

    Fatuos vaporising and vain hopes have you no orignal omment to offer?

    Change the record, you will be sprouting the same in 2 years.

    And we will certainly listen to the politcal theorising of someone who beleives the Palestinian people do not in fact exist and that Obama's chief point is that he is an American and might "make mistakes"

    Have another drink

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  • 333. At 9:04pm on 27 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    331
    I would prefer they were encouraged to grow Hashish, a far less harmful and fun drug than opium. but not so good for serious pain.

    Also a far more traditional crop.

    the only oil I would like to see is hash oil. but that's a class 1 drug and highly illegal, both here in the states and the UK.

    Happy medical laws to you all

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  • 334. At 9:09pm on 27 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 335. At 9:10pm on 27 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    At 5:10pm on 27 Nov 2008, chill0 wrote:
    #290 Ed Iglehart



    I don't need to, since you so clearly provide examples with every post: "Saddam was Evil, so whatever we do (including any (unfortunate but inevitable) evils arising) to rid the world of him is justified..."


    I have made it clear many times that if it were simply that Saddam Hussein was evil, it is not in itself justification for invasion.

    The key is the number of people he killed."


    What how?



    "Intervention in another sovereign nation is a serious matter and needs serious justification.

    Saddam Hussein gave two clear justifications:

    - He killed his people in large numbers
    - He wanted WMD and was psychopathic enough to use it (as he had already proven)"


    1. No not in any sense re Congo, re Rwanda etc etrc

    2. "Wanted WMD? Not a serious point. People are not killed in large numbers because of "wants"

    "The same is true in Darfur. The government is killing its people in large numbers. There should have been an intervention there.

    That there has not is due to the political climate created by the anti-Iraq-War campaign."



    Really. Not because the UK and US are not fundamentally interested.

    No oil no resources


    "If the Iraq War had been lauded in western countries for the toppling of a mass murdering dictator, it would have warned every other mass murdering dictator that they would potentially be deposed and tried."


    You think the killing of 100,000 people should be lauded? You think bombing of women and children was something to celebrate?

    That's the depraved level of your morality?



    "Instead the anti-Iraq-War campaign gave the impression that if you make the right noises you will get away with it but whatever happens, you will not be attacked. Omar Bashir has learned that lesson well."


    The anti-war mobvement did not stopthe illegal invasionof Iraq, so how could it stop an intervention in Darfur?



    "The ethical dilemma posed by sacrificing one person to save two gets no answer from you. You will reply with 'the Iraq War killed lots of people and it was therefore not justified'.

    I have gone into great detail elsewhere (you have seen it) about casualties in Iraq the vast majority of whom were killed by Al Qaeda and the insurgents anyway. That was their choice because they wanted power."



    This is such a disgusting remakr as to defy comment. Talk about blaming the vicitm


    Well they're not your relatives are they, so that's fine.

    Sacrifice a few arabs, don't worry they enjoy it,l ove seeing their kids blown apart by daisy cutters - pass the chocolates.

    Its easy to laud war and killing from your arm chair.

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  • 336. At 9:14pm on 27 Nov 2008, TimothyR444 wrote:

    watermanaquarias:

    "A country - the USA had it all, and has succeeded in going from the top of the heap to fall towards the bottom over the last 30 year period"

    Thank you for providing evidence for the comments I made at the beginning of the thread. The ferocious anti-Americanism that is so prevalant and deeply rooted in Britain often taken the form of this type of spiteful criticism: the idea that the US is a third world country.

    It is impossible to fight this sort of crude bigotry.

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  • 337. At 9:24pm on 27 Nov 2008, TimothyR444 wrote:

    Jeebers:

    "Ladies and gentlemen of the UK, on the behalf of most of the USA, I have this to say:

    We are truly sorry about what's been happening in the past 2 decades. While Clinton was able to somewhat blunt their power, the Republicans have been preying on our fears for some time now. It's taken us a decade to completely change direction politically, but during that time Bush jr has done a lot of damage both to us and to the rest of the world."

    Jeebers - please do not claim to speak for the population of the United States. If you are in the habit of trotting around the globe dispensing random apologies while indulging in hysterical groveling, that is entirely your own affair.

    One does not have to be a neo-con to turn away in revulsion from that sort of cringing self-hated and trendy anti-Americanism. We all sepak only for ourselves.

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  • 338. At 9:29pm on 27 Nov 2008, TimothyR444 wrote:

    notting hill hammer:

    "I did look at Nationmaster. According to this site the USA is more: murderous, corrupt, militaristic and rich than the UK but less: educated, long lived, generous and athletic than the UK.

    After living in both societies on the whole I prefer the UK. "

    This thread is a veritable cornucopia of anti-Americanism in its crudest and ugliest.

    Thank you again for still more evidence for my original comments.

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  • 339. At 9:35pm on 27 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    waterman where do you live?

    just curious because if I remember correctly, you very recently wrote saying you were no longer in the UK and I believe had not been living here for some time.

    yet this upstanding smart questioning fellow says you are a fraud and that you live in Britain.

    How say you sir to the accusation of deceit?

    Timmmmamayyyy.
    all you have ever said is how we all hate you over there.

    Now I am pretty rude. And I am pretty critical of the USA.

    I was only half so full of wonder at how dumb a nation can be on the whole(note) before I arrived here.
    Now I wonder more because I never thought that america could be soooooooo backward thinking.


    And you Timmmaaayyy are the perfect example .

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  • 340. At 9:41pm on 27 Nov 2008, hms_shannon wrote:

    #306

    wow,not just sophisticated,
    but very sophisticated...

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  • 341. At 9:41pm on 27 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    Jeebers well said what ever it was.


    It is fun. hey american Timmmaaaayyy get back to your turkey day , the american holiday.

    sorry sam , Ed, marbles, david, gary,joe and all the other lovely americans out there. I would like to thanks to the kind support of turkeys everywhere to lay down their lives so that millions of americans can get closer to God,
    Eat up
    have seconds.

    And keep thinking why it is why so many DO hate you.

    Ps got to love that Obama eh?

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  • 342. At 9:44pm on 27 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    One does not have to be a neo-con to turn away in revulsion from that sort of cringing self-hated and trendy anti-Americanism.

    but it helps

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  • 343. At 9:58pm on 27 Nov 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #336.TimothyR444: "The ferocious anti-Americanism that is so prevalant and deeply rooted in Britain often taken the form of this type of spiteful criticism: the idea that the US is a third world country."

    You have repeated the libel that that there is a deep-rooted anti-Americanism in Britain yet you never provide any evidence of it. WatermanA did not say that "the US is a third world country" but mentioned areas where the levels are akin to those in third world nations. For example, denying that obesity is a major health care problem for the USA is to ignore the facts - and one's eyes.

    When you can demonstrate, factually, that there is ferocious anti-Americanism in the United Kingdom, please post some reference/s. Until then your anti-British prejudice remains apparent.

    #188. watermanaquarius - Thanks! We have more in common than you realise.

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  • 344. At 10:01pm on 27 Nov 2008, TimothyR444 wrote:

    Jack:

    "Now I am pretty rude. And I am pretty critical of the USA.

    I was only half so full of wonder at how dumb a nation can be on the whole(note) before I arrived here.
    Now I wonder more because I never thought that america could be soooooooo backward thinking."

    Thank you, Jack - I can always count on you for the very finest illustration of all the many examples of crude anti-Americanism. You will always win the prize before it is given.

    And your posts are always so thoughtful, well written, intelligent, insightful and discerning: truly, Britain at its finest....

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  • 345. At 10:05pm on 27 Nov 2008, watermanaquarius wrote:

    TimothyR444 # 336
    I would not have felt that my comment # 110 was so ferocious or even a statement of anti-Americanism, but if you think that everything is hunky-dory in todays America then for goodness sake - tell the other 300 million because many are suffering from the last few decades.
    The third world country relevance was a little harsh perhaps:- but regarding the failures now sitting in the system- education, health care, teenage pregnancies , your 2000 and 2004 voting" anomalies" , and the tendency to "help" other countries at the point of a gun, it does look a little that way.
    If you read my input fully instead of selecting a few of the words, I think I mentioned that in other countries, it is also no bowl of cherries. My major reference was to an international disappointment at the road your government has chosen to follow.
    Check the link I placed, and choose America or anywhere in Europe and let us all know when you find a Utopia.
    I think I have found mine, but then I am not amiss to working damn hard to maintain my little piece of heaven here :- away from the UK and American influences that do not sit well in my thoughts.
    Keep smiling. Obama- if allowed, will get you back to the top, if you will only give the guy a modicum of time. "Home, yours and mine was not built in a day. Brick by brick eh!

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  • 346. At 10:25pm on 27 Nov 2008, watermanaquarius wrote:

    Jack # 339,
    I would love to tell you where I live but am afraid that too many would decide to follow.
    Left the UK 30+ years ago because of the pathetic education offered to my 3 daughters at that time. and the private school education would have only made them little ladies without the possibility of becoming independent women.
    Local school abroad and after 4 modern languages , Latin, Greek, Chemistry, Physics etc etc [following Justins schoolthread here ] , they are all surviving well.
    Fell in love with where I am now, and struggling a bit with the new language but like Ed, I find that talking to the trees being planted is no problem.
    wma

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  • 347. At 10:26pm on 27 Nov 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    The comments about rampant anti-americanism in the UK seem rather baffling. In my fairly ordinary family I've toured around the east coast of the US, one of my sisters got married in Vegas, my other two sisters are heading to New York for some Xmas shopping, none of which is that unusual, I know people who've done similar things, I've encountered people who dislike Bush but few who hate the USA.
    I've also seen people posting on threads here implying Europe is on the brink of falling under Islamic law, when the mere suggestion of such is apt to prompt apoplectic fits in much of the UK public.
    I think our more rabid posters see a few snide articles by rather pompous commentators, or see headlines about senior churchmen suggesting Sharia law could be introduced in the UK and grossly overestimate the influence of these people. They don't understand there is no British Rush Limbaugh, that the leadership of the CoE is regarded as little better than well meaning idiots, a million miles from the influential and politically poweful evangalists of the USA.

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  • 348. At 10:34pm on 27 Nov 2008, TrueToo wrote:

    270. john-In-Dublin,

    The problem is the singling out of Israel for condemnation. The armchair warriors of left get livid at the suggesting that we are not all equal, but then insist on holding the Arabs to a standard so low that it is practically non-existent while holding Israel to the highest possible standard. What do you think of this contradiction? And why not hold people who impose medieval government on their citizens to a higher standard so that they can get themselves out of the mire? How does it help them to place no demands upon them? Besides, it is patronising in the extreme.

    The Jewish writer you refer to was introduced here by Ed Ingehart. As you point out, he was expressing his opinion way back then. He could not have been more wrong in his assumption that Russia would be benevolent towards the Jews. And perhaps he would have had a different point of view if he had known about the Holocaust.

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  • 349. At 10:35pm on 27 Nov 2008, watermanaquarius wrote:

    David #343
    LIFE IS BUT A DREAM
    by: Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

    BOAT, beneath a sunny sky
    Lingering onward dreamily
    In an evening of July--

    Children three that nestle near,
    Eager eye and willing ear,
    Pleased a simple tale to hear--

    Long has paled that sunny sky;
    Echoes fade and memories die;
    Autumn frosts have slain July.

    Still she haunts me, phantomwise,
    Alice moving under skies
    Never seen by waking eyes.

    Children yet, the tale to hear,
    Eager eye and willing ear,
    Lovingly shall nestle near.

    In a Wonderland they lie,
    Dreaming as the days go by,
    Dreaming as the summers die;

    Ever drifting down the stream--
    Lingering in the golden gleam--
    Life, what is it but a dream?

    Got the simple life now- No stresses and strains . Just taking it one day at a time. Hope you are doing the same. Good health.
    wma

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  • 350. At 10:46pm on 27 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    "348. At 10:34pm on 27 Nov 2008, TrueToo wrote:
    270. john-In-Dublin,

    The problem is the singling out of Israel for condemnation. The armchair warriors of left get livid at the suggesting that we are not all equal, but then insist on holding the Arabs to a standard so low that it is practically non-existent while holding Israel to the highest possible standard. What do you think of this contradiction?


    The contradiction does not exist. No Arab country occupies the landof 4 million people and starves their children and shoots them in the nameof religion.

    It is interesting that you never connect with this point.


    Presumably you have no answer.



    "And why not hold people who impose medieval government on their citizens to a higher standard so that they can get themselves out of the mire? How does it help them to place no demands upon them? Besides, it is patronising in the extreme.
    "

    Why do you think using terms like "medieval" is not antisemitic and abusive?

    And are all arabs the same? What about the "the jews" would you appreciate being referred to in this manner?

    You cannot concieve of arabs as anything than an amorphous mass.

    DO you speak of blacks in the same manner?



    "The Jewish writer you refer to was introduced here by Ed Ingehart. As you point out, he was expressing his opinion way back then. He could not have been more wrong in his assumption that Russia would be benevolent towards the Jews. And perhaps he would have had a different point of view if he had known about the Holocaust."



    Which either shows you know nothing about Russia or nothing about the holocaust.

    You might be interested to learn that a number of Israeli war veterans are extremely proud of the role of the red Army in WWII.



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  • 351. At 00:59am on 28 Nov 2008, TimothyR444 wrote:

    David Cunard:

    "You have repeated the libel that that there is a deep-rooted anti-Americanism in Britain yet you never provide any evidence of it. WatermanA did not say that "the US is a third world country" but mentioned areas where the levels are akin to those in third world nations. For example, denying that obesity is a major health care problem for the USA is to ignore the facts - and one's eyes."

    Libel? Too absurd.

    The idea that the United States is some sort of cartoon fantasy land peopled by monstrously obese creatures is merely more of the same crude nonsense.

    You are looking for evidence. Simply read the same posts that I am reading.

    Rather basic, don't you think?

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  • 352. At 01:14am on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    346 WMA

    It is OK not to reveal the location of Shangri-La . It is enough to know that your"anti americanism " was not fermented in the British Isles as was suggested by Timmaaaayyyyy the south park contributor.

    Who still fails to see the point that MY anti americanism has been fermented in the good ol US of A.
    Not in the UK .

    That infact I came here thinking that most Europeans had it wrong about Americans.
    but you know what?

    They were more right in their observations of America and it's people than the Americans have been about Europe and it's people.


    He is also too short in the memory department (and you would think that would be me) to remember that I to am at least Half american.

    Have not been brought up to hate america and come from a family with two from my generation that moved to the USA.

    But the really funny thing is that he is much like the clan of blackadders executioners, He claims to be a proud american while doing everything that causes others to hate america.

    In fact I could suggest he is an anti american brit, trying to provoke people into hating america.

    I will

    Timmmaaayyy Are you an anti american brit being over the top to wind up more anti american feeling?


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  • 353. At 01:23am on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    348

    we are not singling out israel .

    Israel has singled out itself.
    even if nothing is done other countries at least face condemnation from the UN.
    well so does Israel.just that you seem to think that condemnation of any country is justified as long as they do not say ANYTHING about israel.

    I see that the gherkin admitted to the terrorist past history of Israel ,just did not recognise the present day bias seen so much in the USA on this topic.


    I am curious to know where you are from Just a nation not too specific.


    If you ever answer, you haven't even tried yet.


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  • 354. At 01:30am on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    351
    Rather basic, don't you think?

    yes you are

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  • 355. At 02:08am on 28 Nov 2008, luacene wrote:


    The contradiction does not exist. No Arab country occupies the landof 4 million people and starves their children and shoots them in the nameof religion.


    No Jewish country's governing party had members who blew themselves up in nightclubs and committed other atrocities.

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  • 356. At 02:28am on 28 Nov 2008, TimothyR444 wrote:

    Oh, Jack Forge:

    THANK YOU for doing so much to illustrate every point I have ever made about the depth and seriousness of anti-Americanism.

    You above all have convinced me that anti-Americanism will just keep getting worse, and that nothing and no one can change it.

    Of course, there have been many others who also provide help in that department, but you really wrote the book, as they say.

    And of course - you always write with such depth, wit and insight, such precision and intelligence, such concern for accuracy and evidence. You really are the ideal spokesman for anti-Americanism, although you obviously have some competition here.

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  • 357. At 02:38am on 28 Nov 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    351.TimothyR444: "Libel? Too absurd."

    A libel is a false statement damaging to a person's reputation; you tar an entire nation with the same brush.

    "The idea that the United States is some sort of cartoon fantasy land peopled by monstrously obese creatures is merely more of the same crude nonsense."

    You must live in some little country burg where everyone is slim and fit. Go to any metropolitan area or watch your television for evidence of obesity. Over sixty million American adults and nine million of their children are considered to be obese - and that is "crude nonsense"? Check your facts before making such ridiculous statements.

    "You are looking for evidence. Simply read the same posts that I am reading."

    Why not enumerate them? Not every post on this blog originates from one country, a great many opinions, like this one, are from the United States. The evidence I refer to would be some independent appraisal by a reputable organisation. Until then you have not presented a shred of evidence that deep-seated, ferocious anti-Americanism is present in the British people.

    Lastly, Jacksforge writes from the West Coast of America. Read before you put your foot in mouth once more.

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  • 358. At 02:44am on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    355 Luc
    Ok no more polite . you were just not thinking when you wrote this one right?

    "No Jewish country's governing party had members who blew themselves up in nightclubs and committed other atrocities."


    Wow last I checked people that blow themselves up do not tend to do much, other than create a mess and some misery.

    They certainly do not run for office unless they are running under I can't even blow myself up platform.

    "Jewish Country"

    where is that?
    are you sure you're not anti Israeli after all?


    There is the country called Israel .
    But as you have tried to say repeatedly , it is not a Jewish country, But a country of many faiths created to give a place of peace for Jews to live along side the original inhabitants. For all the people of the land, A land free of discrimination.

    Or were you having us on with all that.

    Because Israel has had some leaders that behaved in exactly the manner you mention.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/document/document_20060724.shtml



    Begin and Shamir
    Israel provides a couple of examples of fighters who later became democratic political leaders. One of them, Menachem Begin, won world fame as the Israel prime minister who made peace with Egypt. In an earlier time, he had been a militant fighting the British in Palestine, as a leader of the Irgun (the National Military Organisation).
    The other, Yitzhak Shamir, was in an even more hardline group, the Lehi (Fighters for the Freedom of Israel, dismissed by the British as the Stern Gang after its first leader Avraham Stern).
    Yet years later, Mr Shamir took it in turns to become Israeli prime minister with Shimon Peres when Israel's exact proportional representation system failed to produce a clear enough result.


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7482839.stm



    Do you really want to go on down this boring path.
    the path that this gang have ruined all blogs with.
    this path of denial that certain FACTS exist, and one of those is that the creation of Israel was not a peaceful one.

    Right from the start.

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  • 359. At 02:48am on 28 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    In the face of the terrorist attacks in India.

    Why is it so difficult for some of the posters on this blog to acknowledge the world wide threat of Islamic facism.

    India was attacked by fanatics because they do not exceed to unreasonable demands by these terrorists.

    This is more proof that anyone expouses a justification based on Islam for terrorist attacks is evil.

    no surprise that another democracy was cowardly attacked

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  • 360. At 02:48am on 28 Nov 2008, Jeebers76 wrote:

    "KAS1865 wrote:

    The Islamic extremists have the smell success in their nostrils knowing that Surrender by the US is imminent under a Democrat Administration and will step up their violence throughout the World.
    Last nights events in Mumbia are only the start.

    Obama has no real idea on how to halt the economic downturn and his much heralded "Change" is a sham with the old faces returning to shape US policy."

    (laughter) Uhm, not to be snide, but have you noticed what Obama has been doing lately? He's hiring what he considers the best, no matter their political loyalties. All he wants to know is if they are good at their jobs, and if they can be counted on to intelligently keep the economy in one piece. Even the top Republicans approve of the head Democrat man's actions! If that's not change, what is?

    I seriously doubt that Obama will be giving any terrorist reason to rejoice. He is one shrewd cookie. I intend to wait and see what he does.

    Marcus AureliusII, I seriously think Obama will surprise you. Clear your head of right wing nonsense and THINK. Watch. The man is a centrist, and a practical one at that. He doesn't have much pride to get in the way of his decisions. People here are scared, and he knows it. The responsibility to be nonpartisan is overwhelming in the face of a possible depression globally, not just in the USA.

    TimothyR444, I'm definitely thumbing my nose this time. Groveling? HA! I never grovel. I believe it takes a strong man to admit his mistakes, and a strong country to do the same. We just did by electing the Democrats in a massive landslide all over the country. I know this because I've been reading up on my national politics the past several months. It doesn't matter what you write here, the United States has spoken on Nov 4th, 2008. The evidence to the contrary of your opinion is mountainous, and known globally by now.

    Jacksforge, my original post was #206 if you want to look it up.

    Simon21, way to promote the "oblivious American stereotype"! I beg to differ, I know plenty of people here who know their geography quite well.

    To all of you, all I ask of you is to watch the news reports. Watch who Obama surrounds himself with. He may not know much about economics, but his advisors DO! As for his global policies, kids, expect the man to take a minimalist approach. The Democrats have always held to the Monroe Doctrine for the most part. That is, if the world doesn't mess with N and S America, we won't mess with you. Right now, Obama has enough to do just patching the damage Bush and the Republicans have done in the past 20 years. If he gets reelected, then he may have time to get to foreign policy more seriously.

    Look to the USA doing exactly what the world asked for, leaving it alone. Piracy will radically increase, and you will be fighting amongst yourselves with increasing frequency. That is the stone cold truth. All the USA ever wanted, like Rome once upon a time, is a nice steady marketplace. That's why it got so intrusive, but that's backfired so we will do as you ask.

    If I came across as arrogant or offensive at any point in this post, I am sorry. Right now I'm actually feeling quite grim, as I've been reading a lot of global and local news reports in my spare time.

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  • 361. At 02:49am on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    356 Timmmaayyy we got that , but are you as dumb as you pretend?

    Which bit about me not being in Wales, England ,Scotland, N.Ireland did you not understand?

    Which bit of you can prove this" ANTI AMERICANISM "was in me before I moved here?

    Which part of the Anti americanism in me is British as opposed to a result of having lived in a nation that twice voted for a monkey for president?

    Which part of I am america is too hard for your propaganda riddled mind to understand?

    Which part of the letters did you read?

    I can see that the only bit you ever read is
    "complain about this comment"

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  • 362. At 02:59am on 28 Nov 2008, TimothyR444 wrote:

    "You must live in some little country burg where everyone is slim and fit. Go to any metropolitan area or watch your television for evidence of obesity. Over sixty million American adults and nine million of their children are considered to be obese - and that is "crude nonsense"? Check your facts before making such ridiculous statements."

    I have lived most of my life in NYC and the rest in Boston and Chicago, hardly country burgs. The endless parade of elephants in human form simply doesn't exist.

    Now here's an idea: stop watching trash tabloid televsion. Stop reading anti-American junk in newspapers. Come out of your provincial world and visit the US (GASP!)

    I know, I know - the very idea is just enough to make you frightened. But you may be pleasantly surprised.

    On the other hand, people like yourself often see what they wish to see....

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  • 363. At 03:03am on 28 Nov 2008, TimothyR444 wrote:

    Jack:

    "Which part of the Anti americanism in me is British as opposed to a result of having lived in a nation that twice voted for a monkey for president?

    Which part of I am america is too hard for your propaganda riddled mind to understand?"

    Keep it up, Jack! And why stop here? Why not write a book?

    Your irrelevant references to South Park, your disregard for punctuation and your indulgence in personal insults will only add to the popularity.

    And to think you have lived in several different countries - and that your anti-Americanism developed in response to that experience. Fascinating. And as you mentioned, you did NOT have your family's help! Very impressive indeed!

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  • 364. At 03:04am on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    jeebers
    "I believe it takes a strong man to admit his mistakes, and a strong country to do the same. We just did by electing the Democrats in a massive landslide all over the country. I know this because I've been reading up on my national politics the past several months. It doesn't matter what you write here, the United States has spoken on Nov 4th, 2008. The evidence to the contrary of your opinion is mountainous, and known globally by now."

    And that is why americans like you can travel and not get a face full of abuse whilst I suspect that if Timmmaayyy had the balls to open his moth abroad then he would not be treated so well.

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  • 365. At 03:05am on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    Timmmaaayyy you should take up thinking

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  • 366. At 03:05am on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    You give us yanks a bad name

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  • 367. At 03:06am on 28 Nov 2008, TimothyR444 wrote:

    David Cunard:

    "Lastly, Jacksforge writes from the West Coast of America. Read before you put your foot in mouth once more."

    Now, now, David - no need to indulge in personal insults. Even you must have some standards.

    I am well aware of Jack's extraordinary cosmopolitan background and experience, covering severan nations and continents. As to where he is writing from - does the west coast base serve as some sort of excuse for his posts?

    I think not.

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  • 368. At 03:07am on 28 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    True too (348),

    "The problem is the singling out of Israel for condemnation."
    That's because it's a product of European origin and we expect better of 'our own'. It's origins (the Holocaust) and outcome (the never-ending Nakba) are an embarrassment to all of us who spring from Europe's supposedly 'developed' culture.

    That's why.

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  • 369. At 03:09am on 28 Nov 2008, TimothyR444 wrote:

    Jeebers:

    "I'm definitely thumbing my nose this time. Groveling? HA! I never grovel. I believe it takes a strong man to admit his mistakes, and a strong country to do the same. We just did by electing the Democrats in a massive landslide all over the country. I know this because I've been reading up on my national politics the past several months. It doesn't matter what you write here, the United States has spoken on Nov 4th, 2008. The evidence to the contrary of your opinion is mountainous, and known globally by now."

    Too absurd.

    Never mind the self-righteous posturing. You have no idea what my politics are. I happen to have voted the same way as you.

    But that does NOT mean I am a self-hating, hysterical masochist, begging the rest of the world to "forgive us".

    You choose to apologize to the world. It seems likely that the real response to that is mere contempt and disgust. But that is your own choice.

    My point is that you most certainly do NOT speak for me.

    So don't claim to.

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  • 370. At 03:23am on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    359 them terrorist are as horrible as all the other terrorists.

    You think harrods bombing terrorists were any nicer?

    or is it only the Islamic Facists hurting people you have a problem with.


    I mention the IRA because you keep forgetting that if your rules applied there would be no peace deal in Ireland because we would have bombed the hell out of Ireland and killed all the people in any party because they were connected to terrorism.


    But luck for the world (we need no more terrorists) peace was sought.

    If you seek peace then stop making so many people think bad thoughts about Israel.

    Stop digging holes for Israelis.

    Stop trying so hard to make all Muslims out to be terrorists.

    Wasn't a Jewish prime minister shot by one of Israel's hardline right types?


    where is there evidence that India was approached with some possible deal to avoid these attacks that it then turned down?

    "India was attacked by fanatics because they do not exceed to unreasonable demands by these terrorists."

    would I travel as far as I have previously wished, NO.

    but unlike you I can see that if you treat people like muck they will not like you.

    You I don't care about. but the lives of all americans being threatened by one issue, one issue that seeds more discontent than any other it seems , that I do care about.

    Unlike you I do not think Kill Kill Kill of any side is the solution.

    And frankly I am fed up with all being put at risk(all in the world) because of one issue.

    One issue that is almost impossible to solve because a few americans cannot accept that it is other people that will suffer if they do not listen.

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  • 371. At 03:27am on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    367 Timmmaaaayyyy

    good answer

    that clinches it. you are polite but not very smart.


    " As to where he is writing from - does the west coast base serve as some sort of excuse for his posts? "

    It does not excuse my posts at all. You do.

    It does kind of kick your Idea about anti americanism being British though.


    Keep digging, at least you dig holes for yourself not others as Gherkin does.

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  • 372. At 03:28am on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    I am well aware of Jack's extraordinary cosmopolitan background and experience, covering severan nations and continents.


    I doubt it.

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  • 373. At 03:32am on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    368 Ed
    I liked the way that guy twists the truth, if he could do that to metal I might offer him a job.

    Funny how he can't come back with an answer to how different it is when america kills it's own innocents.

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  • 374. At 03:35am on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    jeebers I thought your apology was sweet.


    tiimmaaaayyy says" You choose to apologize to the world. It seems likely that the real response to that is mere contempt and disgust. But that is your own choice."


    I have not heard anyone respond to jeebers with contempt and disgust, you , well you got to expect it , but not jeebers. well there is KAS maybe him.

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  • 375. At 04:01am on 28 Nov 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #362. TimothyR444: "I have lived most of my life in NYC and the rest in Boston and Chicago, hardly country burgs. The endless parade of elephants in human form simply doesn't exist."

    Then where are the sixty million obese adults? I suggest you take a good look at people before deciding none are overweight, but perhaps you too could lose a few pounds and consider your own (over) weight normal. The fact is that obesity is a major health problem and you ignore it at your peril.

    "Now here's an idea: stop watching trash tabloid televsion. Stop reading anti-American junk in newspapers. Come out of your provincial world and visit the US (GASP!)"

    You really are the most ignorant and unobservant poster - as most long-time contributors are aware, I happen to live in Los Angeles. It seems to me that it is you who live in a provincial world; when did you last visit the United Kingdom?

    I won't bore the Board with my television-viewing habits, but suffice it to say that I do not watch "trash tabloid television". However, I must confess that I occasionally watch Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity, simply to see their version of "fair and balanced". It rarely is so.

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  • 376. At 04:21am on 28 Nov 2008, TimothyR444 wrote:

    Jack

    "And that is why americans like you can travel and not get a face full of abuse whilst I suspect that if Timmmaayyy had the balls to open his moth abroad then he would not be treated so well."

    Quite right! People like yourself generally will only put up with people who agree with everything and are always begging forgiveness.

    No doubt you and people like you will give plenty of abuse to anyone who dares to question or disagree - and who do not indulge in anti-American nonsense.

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  • 377. At 04:33am on 28 Nov 2008, TimothyR444 wrote:

    "You really are the most ignorant and unobservant poster - as most long-time contributors are aware, I happen to live in Los Angeles. It seems to me that it is you who live in a provincial world; when did you last visit the United Kingdom?"

    Never mind the offensive insults - which certainly should not be permitted on this site.

    This response really is very annoying. It is evident, then, that you have no excuse whatever for your comments about Americans. I was willing to overlook them to some extent because they obviously reflect a narrow and provincial understanding of the world. But after reading your biographical details (which you apparently assume the world is supposed to know) I find that there is no excuse at all.

    My last visit to London was in the winter of 2006.

    Just a question: consdering your view of Americans - what conceivabvle reason can there be for you to be here now? It must be quite painful.

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  • 378. At 04:55am on 28 Nov 2008, Jeebers76 wrote:

    Too late, TimothyR444. The entire USA, by voting nearly completely Democrat, admitted a major boo-boo to the entire planet. That was my point. We elected Bush sr and jr, and gave the Republicans far too much trust. Big mistake.

    I don't hate myself, I'm not hysterical, and I don't do pain. I wrote on behalf of everybody who voted US Democrat, but apparently not you. It is your right to protest, but not to demonize me by using the language you have.

    Put simply, I try to be polite and decent in all my posts. I write what I think, and what I notice daily in the people around me as well as watch a LOT of news reports all over the world.

    Please, be more careful as to expressing yourself. It does the USA reputation no good at all to be hostile.

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  • 379. At 05:18am on 28 Nov 2008, TimothyR444 wrote:

    Jeebers:

    "Please, be more careful as to expressing yourself. It does the USA reputation no good at all to be hostile."

    Never mind dispensing helpful instructions on how to think, speak and write. You just worry about yourself.

    You forget that not all of us are desperate for the approval of others. An increase in self-respect will help you enormously.

    My point remains the same: you speak ONLY for yourself, not for others. As you are concerned with etiquette, I will tell you that it is the height of rudeness to claim to speak for others.

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  • 380. At 05:32am on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    Tiiimmmaayyy
    http://www.obesityinamerica.org/

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/diet.fitness/07/17/obesity.states.ap/index.html

    look at the top ten most obese states .

    Now as you are a dem you might not be obese.
    Why would I suggest republicans are fatter. Well I have some virtual pudding here.
    look at them ten states

    These are the 10 states with the highest levels of adult
    obesity, according to a 2007 survey by the Centers for Disease
    Control and Prevention.
    1. Mississippi, 32.0 percent
    2. Alabama, 30.3
    3. Tennessee, 30.1
    4. Louisiana, 29.8
    5. West Virginia, 29.5
    6. Arkansas, 28.7
    7. South Carolina, 28.4
    8. Georgia, 28.2
    9. Oklahoma, 28.1
    10. Texas, 28.1
    Source: Associated Press


    guess how they all voted?
    So justin how about this for your next blog topic "does being fat make you more likely to vote GOP"

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  • 381. At 05:36am on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    Tiiiimmmmmaayyyy

    this thing you have about being persecuted.

    Now when the election results came through and I said I feel Good to be an American you , who now pretends to be the chariot of reason, made some snivelling remark you did not accept anyones good glad tidings you just insulted me and the others.

    So why is it you wonder why people think you "touched"

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  • 382. At 05:55am on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    Europeans are rapidly moving away from roots in the ancient Christian civilization that once existed in Europe and are embracing Islam - not as a religion, but as a culture. This is another enormous difference between the US and Europe, and certainly helps explain so much of the deep anti-Americanism that is so popular in Europe.
    ---------------------------------
    ---------------------------------
    Are you kidding?

    Back into the world family?

    We were never outside the "world family".

    No thanks. You can keep your patronizing "welcome".

    Ugh
    -----------------------------------------------
    --------------------------------------
    "I'll be drinking and dancing in Brisbane, Australia tonight - this is what the world needs - a shift and a focus on what should have been FOCUSED on in 2000. A revolution in green technology - a non-fundamentalist base in America means a reduction in extreme terrorists. TOLERANCE - this is magic ... Much more exciting then the RUdd win - thanks you America. Thank you OHIO"

    So you are blaming Americans for terrorism?

    This is the sort of "logic" that cannot be grasped. Absolutely unbelievable.

    100. At 05:33am on 06 Nov 2008, TimothyR444 wrote:
    Jeebers 76:

    "All of this is not to state that I feel superior to the rest of the world by virtue of being from the USA. We aren't superior at all, just different from what Webb seems to think we are. Stop watching the American media, and start talking to us instead. We might just surprise you."

    ______________________________

    Good post, Jeebers. Pragmatism is absolutely cental to American life.

    There are so many misconceptions about Americans. Unfortunately they are sometimes more fascinating than the truth.

    ===========================

    timmmaaaaay not a very gracious thank you from you in any of them posts except the one from jeebers who you have spent some time arguing with today.
    You were nice to him because he agreed with you.


    Do you think, you could see where I might go with this line.?
    ========================
    "Quite right! People like yourself generally will only put up with people who agree with everything and are always begging forgiveness.

    No doubt you and people like you will give plenty of abuse to anyone who dares to question or disagree - and who do not indulge in anti-American nonsense."

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  • 383. At 06:01am on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    379 Tiiimmmaayyy

    your point was Anti americanism is rife in the UK


    You failed to prove this because it were me a yank half breed that you were thinking of as anti american. And I live here. so being not so smart.

    Oh and when the hell did you learn manners.

    I could get all your other posts up to show how polite you have been to others.

    I will tell you that it is the height of rudeness to tell people that are saying thank you to GOPoff, or stop being patronising, or to twist their words.

    So begin to tell us about manners when you learn some.

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  • 384. At 06:14am on 28 Nov 2008, ladycm wrote:

    380. At 05:32am on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge:

    "So justin how about this for your next blog topic "does being fat make you more likely to vote GOP."

    Yes it does. I would add something in there about a fat head also.

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  • 385. At 06:36am on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    384 ladycm

    lol
    the dems should have run on
    " voting dem will reduce your weight.;)"



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  • 386. At 06:40am on 28 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 380 ~ Jack

    Now there's an interesting statistic, Jack.

    Bullseye, boyo.

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  • 387. At 06:41am on 28 Nov 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #377. TimothyR444: "Never mind the offensive insults - which certainly should not be permitted on this site."

    You have made more than your own share of offensive comments, branding an entire nation as anti-American. When you can demonstrate that what you write is true, I shall be happy to apologise, although I find nothing offensive in my earlier posts.

    "consdering your view of Americans - what conceivabvle reason can there be for you to be here now?"

    Now exactly what view/s of Americans that I hold are distasteful to you? If you care to read my posts over the last several months, you will find that never once have I written anything adversely critical of America or her citizenry. Bringing attention to obesity can hardly be said to be insulting. As for my reasons for continuing to live here, they really are none of your business, save to say that I have been a productive member of society, recognised by my peers and that, as Charlie Chaplin once said, I have been a very good paying guest.

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  • 388. At 06:48am on 28 Nov 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    Does this mean that the Dems will make
    us all lose weight now?

    This could all be because Democrats smoke
    tobacco products, whereas the Repubs have
    all quit.

    As for you, jf, I won't even comment on what
    you smoke, except that I wish you the best
    products from the Northwest woods this
    holiday season.

    Just trying to be helpful...

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  • 389. At 06:53am on 28 Nov 2008, ladycm wrote:

    385. At 06:36am on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:
    384 ladycm

    {lol
    the dems should have run on
    " voting dem will reduce your weight.;)"}

    I dropped 300 lbs when I switched from repub to dem. Okay, not really. I was never a republican. I will keep you guessing on the weight change.

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  • 390. At 07:13am on 28 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #308 Ed Iglehart
    Of course the situation in Afghanistan is heterogeneous. You only need to read one news report to know that.

    Your argument appears to be (although in the manner common to the anti-Iraq-War school you offer no clear argument) that no western forces are needed because the local people can sort this out for themselves.

    As evidence you offer an example from Nuristan in North-East Afghanistan.

    Is that it ?

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  • 391. At 07:21am on 28 Nov 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #314 Ed Iglehart
    As though saying it's the 'Two Wrongs' fallacy made it all right.

    Saddam Hussein had killed at a conservative estimate two hundred thousand Iraqi people. This does not count any casualties in the Iran/Iraq War. This is murder by direct action of the Iraqi security forces in genocidal campaigns.

    The reasons for those murders still prevailed. He had to keep on killing them. He had only been stopped by the 'no-fly' zones.

    Saddam Hussein had possessed WMD and given every reason to suppose that he was going to possess WMD again. At the time of the invasion, according to the published opinion of the US and UK intelligence agencies he possessed WMD.

    The invasion will leave Iraq and the whole of the middle east with a chance for a different and better future.

    It is Barack Obama's opinion that American force should be concentrated in Afghanistan. I am sure they will put a great deal of effort into giving Afghanistan the same chance as they gave Iraq - but Afghanistan is not a society like Iraq. If change is to happen at all, it will take a great deal longer.

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  • 392. At 07:29am on 28 Nov 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    Something to share. One of our Thanksgiving guests was a lady who teaches in an inner city school. I asked her how the people felt about Obama's election. "How they felt? Election night they were dancing in the streets. They were so proud."

    Then I asked about her students. (She teaches kindergarten or first grade.) "They want to be very respectful," she said, "so that don't call him 'Barack,' they call him 'Uncle Barack.'" Their parents must have taught them that.

    I wonder if Barack Obama knows that he is "Uncle Barack" to the little black kids of the ghetto. I'll bet he would be proud too. Let's hope he does not disappoint.

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  • 393. At 07:35am on 28 Nov 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    380, Jack.

    Part of a joke I heard. "You know he's from Arkansas if his wife weighs more than his pickup."

    Whenever I head down south (where I have family) I am always shocked by how fat the people are.

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  • 394. At 07:48am on 28 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    391. At 07:21am on 28 Nov 2008, chill0 wrote:
    #314 Ed Iglehart
    As though saying it's the 'Two Wrongs' fallacy made it all right.

    Saddam Hussein had killed at a conservative estimate two hundred thousand Iraqi people. This does not count any casualties in the Iran/Iraq War. This is murder by direct action of the Iraqi security forces in genocidal campaigns."



    This is fancifull. No one knows how many peo-ledied under Saddam Hussein and he was suppressing rebellions.


    "The reasons for those murders still prevailed. He had to keep on killing them. He had only been stopped by the 'no-fly' zones."


    Given this why kill more by invading?


    "Saddam Hussein had possessed WMD and given every reason to suppose that he was going to possess WMD again. At the time of the invasion, according to the published opinion of the US and UK intelligence agencies he possessed WMD."



    Opinions of intelligence agencies are not an issue. Their evidence and sources are. Governments know this

    "The invasion will leave Iraq and the whole of the middle east with a chance for a different and better future."


    And the hundreds of thousands of dead, injured are what? Not a consideration? What life will they have


    All you do is reassert the same garbage with no evidence or reasoning.

    Most callous is the way you ignore the dead and victims of the invasion.

    The allies dod not even bother to count the bodies - soemthing they did for the nazis in WWII.

    This shows the utter contempt they had for the Iraqis - their dead weren't even worth counting



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  • 395. At 07:54am on 28 Nov 2008, watermanaquarius wrote:

    Jack # 380
    Why is it that the Fat Calculator sites in different countries give a slightly different ideal height / weight relationship? Checked yours at .org and am feeling slightly embarressed though I fortunately just crept into the normal level. I thought everything American was bigger and better, but .org is mean?

    ladycm # 389 wrote
    "I dropped 300 lbs when I switched from repub to dem. Okay, not really. I was never a republican. I will keep you guessing on the weight change".

    Gazing at your replies on the screen I guess you would be petite, and independent otherwise you would possibly have chosen ladymetre or even ladyfurlong as a nom de plume. Congratulations on your feminine form.
    Now if Justin could bottle the blog commenting on the site - a sort of new life elixir mental exercise programme and show that "chewing the fat" here, is good for the BMI index then America and the UK would soon both be world leaders again.
    Is this the reason that China, Japan and India are doing so well?
    "Slim" in the Dutch language translates as smart or intelligent!

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  • 396. At 08:01am on 28 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    355. At 02:08am on 28 Nov 2008, luacene wrote:

    The contradiction does not exist. No Arab country occupies the landof 4 million people and starves their children and shoots them in the nameof religion.


    No Jewish country's governing party had members who blew themselves up in nightclubs and committed other atrocities."



    So you concede the point. Good

    And there was a country which called itself jewish which elected a PM who helped blow up a hotel (killing a number of jews) and another who allied with open neo fascists (fascists) to massacre more semites.

    In both cases the individuals made sure they were quite safe.

    Tip I wouldn't try to defend Israel by pointing to its political parties or politicians.

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  • 397. At 08:03am on 28 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    ~ 394

    Chillo reminds me of the most annoying type of party agent - a breed which is unfortunately all too familiar to me.

    When he blithely announces that the Iraq invasion will "leave Iraq and the whole of the middle east with a chance for a different and a better future" he is spouting an out-dated party line which is totally at odds with the painful evidence.

    If he wants us to listen to him, he would be better to get a more realistic party slogan to spout to us.

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  • 398. At 08:04am on 28 Nov 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    394, Simon.

    We invaded Iraq for oil and power. We didn't give a damn about Saddam Hossein. Our nation has supported so much pond scum that it is fanciful to suggest that our invasion had anything to do with morality.

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  • 399. At 08:29am on 28 Nov 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    397, eightypercent.

    It seems to me that all we are bequeathing to Iraq is a ravaged country, untold dead, civil war, and ... who knows what else.

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  • 400. At 08:30am on 28 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    398. At 08:04am on 28 Nov 2008, allmymarbles wrote:
    394, Simon.

    We invaded Iraq for oil and power. We didn't give a damn about Saddam Hossein. Our nation has supported so much pond scum that it is fanciful to suggest that our invasion had anything to do with morality."




    Absolutely nothing. if we had been concerned with morality in any way then we would count the victims.

    Bombing women and children, then claiming it is for their own good is about as immoral as you can get

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  • 401. At 08:35am on 28 Nov 2008, dceilar wrote:

    #380 JacksForge

    It seems that Republicans not only want their cake but eat it!

    #397 eightypercent

    Indeed. There's something colonial about this attitude, that we are doing them a favour. I'll probably get a reply saying that I support Saddam! He seems angry when arabs kill arabs but not when the US, or Europe, or Israel kill arabs; he opposes the killing of innocent animals but not innocent humans! We know of one veggie/vegan who liked killing humans . . .

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  • 402. At 08:36am on 28 Nov 2008, watermanaquarius wrote:

    allmymarbles # 392
    Liked your reference to the respectful "Uncle Barack" from the kids of the ghetto.
    My wifes culture regards and names all friends or aquaintances as Uncle X, Auntie Y,or little sister Z etc too, irrespective of the strength of their bond in the family circle.
    A simple word given from the heart.
    A shame that the Auntie or Uncle reference has been changed by some countries to cast a negative meaning to the word, for a new partner in life.
    Regards Big brother wma.

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  • 403. At 08:42am on 28 Nov 2008, hacked account wrote:

    Tried yet again. Still only read "your comment contains HTML that has been mistyped."

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  • 404. At 08:44am on 28 Nov 2008, hacked account wrote:

    If I attempt any comment longer than 3 lines. Second part of the rejection is, "Data at the root level is invalid on line 1."

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  • 405. At 08:45am on 28 Nov 2008, hacked account wrote:

    What astonishes me most is that no one from the BBC Tech dept or indeed the BBC Editors can be bothered to acknowledge me.

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  • 406. At 08:46am on 28 Nov 2008, hacked account wrote:

    I have no option but to choose this method of protest/complaint as no other channel of reporting this seems interested!?????????

    Complain about this comment

  • 407. At 08:47am on 28 Nov 2008, hacked account wrote:

    Apologies to all those commentators who use this Blog for serious discussion: I think my complaint is legitimate cause for concern.

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  • 408. At 09:23am on 28 Nov 2008, dceilar wrote:

    fermeparkspurs

    Are you writing your comment in your browser or in Notepad or Word etc? Try using Firefox as your browser.

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  • 409. At 09:44am on 28 Nov 2008, watermanaquarius wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 410. At 09:49am on 28 Nov 2008, selfevidenttruths wrote:

    380 jack/ladycm:

    Have been left of center most of my life, and slim ... point proven? lol

    guns: certain smokable substances lead to increased appetite ...

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  • 411. At 09:51am on 28 Nov 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    fermesparkspurs

    No problem with Safari as a browser either.

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  • 412. At 09:58am on 28 Nov 2008, The Notting Hill Hammer wrote:

    TimothyR44, you really should get out more. the stats I used to make the point that the USA is more murderous, corrupt and taxed than the UK, whilst being less generous and less athletic are facts. Some of the stats come from the CIA worldbook. The CIA is not generally accused of being Anti-American.

    I am not Anti-American myself, I love many things about the USA and have many friends there. I lived in the NY area for 7 years and travelled extensively.

    My personal preference is for the UK, which is why I returned here. Not choosing the USA above the UK does not make me anti-American.

    If you bothered to read posts instead of simply looking for bias you would know that I have defended the USA in quite a few posts.

    I would also argue that my experience of living in both Europe and the USA gives me far more knowledge on this issue than you.

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  • 413. At 10:07am on 28 Nov 2008, watermanaquarius wrote:

    Dear Mods,
    What was the problem with trying to offer help? The reference to using flowery language to get your attention?

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  • 414. At 10:08am on 28 Nov 2008, watermanaquarius wrote:

    Or the suggestion that the blogger with problems was receiving a commision to push the blog above the 500mark?

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  • 415. At 10:09am on 28 Nov 2008, watermanaquarius wrote:

    Or the mention about a visit from the thought police?

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  • 416. At 10:21am on 28 Nov 2008, watermanaquarius wrote:

    Dear Moderator,
    Just got your email. If trying to help somebody on the blog who has asked for help is "off topic," then you have got me completely confused. No bad language etc etc etc.
    Not all of us are boffins like yourself in working out this internet connection thing.

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  • 417. At 10:27am on 28 Nov 2008, dceilar wrote:

    It looks like it was the internet wot won it! I think we knew that already, but a citizenship version 2.0 though?

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  • 418. At 10:36am on 28 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # waterman ~ don't you start too.

    I think that if fermepark could get through in one word which system he/she is using our teckies would be able to advise.

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  • 419. At 10:43am on 28 Nov 2008, luacene wrote:



    Wow last I checked people that blow themselves up do not tend to do much, other than create a mess and some misery.

    They certainly do not run for office unless they are running under I can't even blow myself up platform.


    erm what?

    Hamas members quite successfully blew themselves up. And btw the fact that they were elected tells you something about how committed the Palestinian people are too peace with Israel since Hamas want to eliminate it as it says in their charter.


    So you concede the point. Good


    You concede the point too? Israel can do what it like because they have no suicide bombers willing to kill Israeli children? I didnt think that you were so anti-palestinian?

    In my opinion if both sides use the atrocities of the other side to justify their own actions against civilians we are never gonna get anywhere.


    I think it’s quite obvious that rather than being impolite I was doing your “thing” of turning around what people say and then seeing what people thought of it. Doesn’t seem like you really liked it to me.

    Israel is as i have always said a predominantly Jewish country where minorities have the same rights as the Jewish majority etc etc.


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  • 420. At 10:48am on 28 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    #370

    What did the resident of Jewish House or the tourists in India do to deserve the terrorist attacks?

    I've yet to see a major Arab leader come out and condemn terrorist attacks against non Moslems with any consistancy.

    If Abdullah had any courage he would fly humbly to Jerusulem and open peace negoiations without any preconditions.

    Don't hold your breath for that.

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  • 421. At 10:53am on 28 Nov 2008, Grapevyne wrote:

    Sam # 31

    I am thankful for

    - my husband and 4 beautiful children
    - good health
    - my extended family
    - good friends
    - the ability to sing and write songs
    - the freedom I currently enjoy
    - having a stable job
    - cenrtal heating in winter
    - love and peace wherever it is found

    love to you all

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  • 422. At 10:57am on 28 Nov 2008, watermanaquarius wrote:

    Dear ms / mr fermeparkspurs,
    It would appear that my jokey worded comment allowed me to receive the email address from Justins moderators which unfortunately [ following the blog rules] may not be disclosed here. I requested their help for you, so if somebody has a heart there, we can both only hope and wait.


    ps Dear Mods,
    Going to dig the garden in the rain for a few hours giving you a break from my unseemly comment. Hoping to read the confused bloggers input on my return.
    Have a good day

    pps. 80% Glad your awake. All the best with the help
    wma

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  • 423. At 11:09am on 28 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 417

    Interestingly, during the recent campaign, I did notice quite a bit of traffic (written under a USA-based by-line) from America to The Daily Telegraph - which would then immediately find its way back to Drudge.

    The Democrats were up for it this time and their response team did not allow these stories to gain traction. The only downside to this appears to be that airspace was then left for the wilder conspiracy theories to grow and feed the imaginations of the lunatic fringe.

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  • 424. At 11:53am on 28 Nov 2008, DNAtheist wrote:

    The roots of bigotry lie in generalisations.

    That they are deep roots and draw succour from other places too is not in question, but if you exclude the most basic of generalisations about humanity (simply, for example, that on a good-bad scale the whole of humanity can be viewed as a Gaussian distribution) then what you are left with is invariably bigoted statements about people.

    Do not confuse this with generalisations about ideas, which is a different subject.

    No one (at least, no one worth listening to) would suggest that, for example, the statement "Women are inferior to men" is not grossly bigoted and utterly disgraceful. But statements such as: "Europeans seem to think that they have cornered the market on knowledge and wisdom when in fact they have neither." or "I am so ashamed of our patheticness" are, sadly, just further examples of narrow-minded generalising.

    Be assured that I am not singling out these two comments, nor their respective posters, they merely happened to stick in the mind. Their are plenty of others. Some have been made by those who wear their bigotry proudly, like a shield of ignorance, and are deserving of far less attention than I have already given. Many, however, have been made by those who have displayed eloquence, intelligence and rationality.

    To them I suggest you are doing yourselves a disservice. Be careful how you generalise because blanket statements about people invariably belittle that most enigmatic of concepts, the human being.

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  • 425. At 12:17pm on 28 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    420. At 10:48am on 28 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
    #370

    What did the resident of Jewish House or the tourists in India do to deserve the terrorist attacks?"

    What did a Palestinian schoolgirl do to justify being shot in the back whilke dying on the ground.

    Other than the fact she was Palestinian - and we know you would need no other justification.



    "I've yet to see a major Arab leader come out and condemn terrorist attacks against non Moslems with any consistancy."


    Yet to see you condemn terrorism per se

    "If Abdullah had any courage he would fly humbly to Jerusulem and open peace negoiations without any preconditions.

    Don't hold your breath for that."


    Humbly? You mean bow and scrape

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  • 426. At 12:17pm on 28 Nov 2008, shurlyujest wrote:

    Maybe Obama's simply telling people the truth -- somthing a US prez hasn't done for a long time -- for a change.

    And, judging from the reaction from Mr. Webb, and others posting on this site, it would appear that this development is so strange and unusual as to create astonishment and disbelief.

    What a sad commentary on the state of affairs in the world as a whole, when an individual like Obama, comes along and is able to sort out the ridiculous from reality -- and is doubted about HIS veracity!!

    Apparently, 8-plus years of exposure to the weird and warped ramblings of Karl Rove's political psychodrama manifesto, has immunized many in the chattering class (among others) as to what the truth really is -- and whether or not it actually matters.

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  • 427. At 1:39pm on 28 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    ~ Shurly

    After eight years, people are being reminded by Obama what Democracy is all about (which is even more ironic when you remember that the various 21st century wars were started to 'bring these people democracy'.

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  • 428. At 1:39pm on 28 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #425. At 12:17pm on 28 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:
    420. At 10:48am on 28 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
    #370

    What did the resident of Jewish House or the tourists in India do to deserve the terrorist attacks?"

    What did a Palestinian schoolgirl do to justify being shot in the back whilke dying on the ground.

    (She lived in a country where cowardly Palestinian terrorist use her as a human sheild)



    "I've yet to see a major Arab leader come out and condemn terrorist attacks against non Moslems with any consistancy."

    "If Abdullah had any courage he would fly humbly to Jerusulem and open peace negoiations without any preconditions.

    Don't hold your breath for that."


    Humbly? You mean bow and scrape

    (Ni I mean not setting perconditions, Sadat did not. )


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  • 429. At 2:07pm on 28 Nov 2008, lochraven wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 430. At 2:38pm on 28 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Chill0,

    "The invasion will leave Iraq and the whole of the middle east with a chance for a different and better future."
    And several hundred thousand dead innocent folk damaged collaterally.

    Peace is better
    ed

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  • 431. At 2:43pm on 28 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    An unwelcome side effect of Tory Front Benchers being arrested is that the mods become overwhelmed by the traffic of good ole boys huffing and puffing to Nick Robinson. Nick has pointed out that Labour people were arrested over the cash for honours affair - which has infuriated the ole boys even more.

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  • 432. At 2:48pm on 28 Nov 2008, amerika_first wrote:

    The upcoming inaugration will bring about change. What they meant not change from past political business as usual, but change from Bush. Change back to Clintons. And what does the newly elected congress mean when they said change, did they mean change from the past, or did they mean change in their pockets. More then likely change in their pockets.

    Look at our unbiased media to see that the fix was in all along. What free election one might ask. You can not criticize Obama for if you do, then you will surely be outcast from Amerika. Remember Bill of Rights and Freedom of Speech. The republic will survive an Obama presidency just like it did a Bush or Nixon or even worse a Clinton presidency.

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  • 433. At 2:52pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    407 I would not worry about the seriousness of our discusions heree.
    Your posts are still more interesting than some, though I can Offer you no solution I wish you luck in your postings.

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  • 434. At 2:54pm on 28 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 435. At 2:58pm on 28 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Majik,

    "(Ni I mean not setting perconditions, Sadat did not. )"
    Preconditions? Like these?

    and these?

    Pot Kettle
    ed

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  • 436. At 2:59pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    410guns: certain smokable substances lead to increased appetite ..

    I think through the research I have worked on for many years now that his is maybe a fallacy that best describes the casual user and not the habitual users like me.

    While true it does increase appetite it is also true that you can't be bothered to make something to eat.
    No seriously there is an increase in synaptic activity and this is powered by sugars.
    This use of sugar will deplete what is available in the body and as such the body gets told to "FEED ME Seymour FEED ME"
    Now some would say that extra synaptic activity is a waste.But then they often think that thinkers are a waste.

    In reality the long term users are less likely to be victims of the "munchies".

    And so maintain their figure.

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  • 437. At 3:01pm on 28 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    Ah ! A post opened but it is an incomprehensible one from Magic.

    I just wonder whether, in honour of all the people who lost their lives in Mumbai, we could have a bit of hush from our Zionist friends because one thing that the horrific event is beginning to expose is the role that Israel has played in arming and training the Indian military.

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  • 438. At 3:02pm on 28 Nov 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    #389 et al

    Darn,

    I'd better get the gym and work off some of that Turkey before I feel my IQ dropping.

    Hang on though, it's Friday.

    Friday's are for firearms.

    Gunner Sam

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  • 439. At 3:07pm on 28 Nov 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    The Northern Irish peace process does have lessons for the middle east, and it can be distilled to two essential points that ended the 'Troubles':

    A) An acceptance that a purely military solution was impossible.
    B) Given 'victory' was unobtainable everyone would have to live with a political compromise.

    In NI both sides finally accepted the former proposition which after much wrangling led to the latter. In the Israeli-Palestinian conflict no one so far seems to have gotten as far as A).

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  • 440. At 3:09pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    luc 419

    Hamas members quite successfully blew themselves up


    how is a polititian an elected official meant to work with body parts all over the place.
    politics is hard enough with a body let alone many bit.


    your argument about suicide bombers is pathetic and often raised here.

    Is the bomber any less murderous if they do not get killed themselves?

    Should we give Hamas some military aid so their "freedom fighters"(as you'll called the IRA) can use real accurate missiles.
    Should we give them helicopter gun ships to Attack with.
    How about them Cluster bombs?


    Not my Idea but the fair solution Solomon might have come up with. As a guy who threatened to cut a kid in half if the parents couldn't figure it out.

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  • 441. At 3:10pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:


    In my opinion if both sides use the atrocities of the other side to justify their own actions against civilians we are never gonna get anywhere.


    this is well said.
    but does include BOTH

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  • 442. At 3:13pm on 28 Nov 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    #420 Magickirin:

    "If Abdullah had any courage he would fly humbly to Jerusulem and open peace negoiations without any preconditions."

    Wouldn't flying to Jerusalem constitute a pre-condition? That is an acceptance of that city as the Israeli capital?

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  • 443. At 3:34pm on 28 Nov 2008, Reuben wrote:

    TimothyR444 (#367):

    "does the west coast base serve as some sort of exuse for his posts?"

    Haven't you ever heard of the "Left Coast"

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  • 444. At 3:34pm on 28 Nov 2008, selfevidenttruths wrote:

    431 eighty:

    possibly with good reason ...

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  • 445. At 3:35pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    420 (good number thanks for the reminder)
    Gherkin.

    What FACTS do you know.

    It seems to me that most victims of terrorism are innocents, that is often the point of the terrorist action.
    It also seem that you do feel that there may be a connection to Israel. or at least the politics that surround the Israeli question.


    "as the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC), headquartered in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, issued a statement saying 'These acts of violence contradict all human values and can be justified by nothing."

    http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/southasia/news/article_1445371.php/World_leaders_unite_in_condemnation_of_Mumbai_attacks_

    Iran's Foreign Ministry on Thursday also condemned the terrorist attacks in India. "Iran is also a victim of terrorist attacks and is ready to fight against such evil acts on all levels," Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman Hassan Qashqavi said in a statement.
    Arab League Secretary General Amr Moussa condemned on Thursday the series of terrorist attacks in India's Mumbai which have killed at least 119 people.

    http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-11/28/content_10425381.htm


    But then you probably thought chickens coming home to roost was scandalous.


    I see no one supporting these attacks.
    Again it is not you who suffers because of your words.
    You sit safe in the US saying how bad Muslims are all the time.

    You breed hatred.


    As to the historically violent India terrorism problem that seems set to continue.

    There has been tension between Hindu's and Muslims for some time now.

    That is the normal reason for terrorism in India. It seems that may have changed a little(though note many many Indians have been killed).

    The Hindu's have not always been blameless in the past. there are several occasions where they have killed many and as usual violence begets violence.

    Ghandi had it right, Violence is not the way.

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  • 446. At 3:43pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    AmeriKa

    whats with the K
    seems a bit unpatriotic spelling your country wrong.

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  • 447. At 3:44pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    Chillo I hope you are not vegan for karmic reasons , it won't work if as Ed points out you are not against all killing.

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  • 448. At 3:54pm on 28 Nov 2008, selfevidenttruths wrote:

    436 jack:

    I agree, and have also noticed that some strains are more appetite inducing than others. As I often combine with alcohol I notice this less than in the past ...

    Peace, healthy appetites, and good thinking.

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  • 449. At 3:54pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    Amerika
    Look at our unbiased media to see that the fix was in all along.


    I wont buy that.

    Speaking of buying or not
    http://www.buynothingday.co.uk/


    "Black Friday"

    Normally Black is used unthinkingly in the negative "black balled" "Black mail" " black"

    Today however is one of those rare occasions where there is a positive connotation put to to the word by even the racists.

    America voted in a black guy(to some) to get the economy going.

    Ok Not the most PC discussion ,but noe the less interesting to us that find words amusing toys.

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  • 450. At 3:55pm on 28 Nov 2008, selfevidenttruths wrote:

    439 Asa:

    Yes.

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  • 451. At 3:57pm on 28 Nov 2008, U13664982 wrote:

    Rebuttal to Ed Iglehart #435

    If you are serious about wanting a lasting peace in the Middle East (as opposed to wanting to weaken Israel to enable its destruction) you need to be a bit more even handed.

    I suggest three principles to be included from the Arab side:

    1) If any compensation is paid to Arabs who left Israel in 1948, then equal rights for compensation should be given to those Jews who were forced to leave Arab and Islamic countries at that time; including compensation for loss of Oil sale revenues on their lands there.
    2) If Arabs are to be allowed to live freely in Israel then Jews must be allowed freely to live in Arab countries; with equal rights and protection under their laws.
    3) Islamic theologians must issue universally binding Fatwah(s) that protect the Jews and make it un-Islamic to kill Jews. This will prevent splinter extremist groups from ignoring any peace deal.

    I would also suggest that negotiation is impossible while one side proclaims what Hamas says in the last quote of article 7 of its official charter:

    http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

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  • 452. At 3:57pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    442 that why I always envied the Scottish school system.

    Nice

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  • 453. At 3:59pm on 28 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #437

    This demonstrates your lack of understanding:

    Blame the terrorists not the victims!!

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  • 454. At 4:01pm on 28 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    I am utterly intrigued that my passing comments about the arrests of UK politicians should be printed and then smartly removed.

    If only such influence was brought to bear on a few of the hatemongers and inciters on this blog.

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  • 455. At 4:02pm on 28 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #442

    Jerusulem is the capital of Israel. Israel gets to decide where their capital not on outside body. If they want it moved to Eliat that is their decision.

    However if that would be the sticking point, let him fly to another city in the soviergn nation of Israel.

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  • 456. At 4:04pm on 28 Nov 2008, U13664982 wrote:

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  • 457. At 4:10pm on 28 Nov 2008, U13664982 wrote:

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  • 458. At 4:30pm on 28 Nov 2008, U13664982 wrote:

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  • 459. At 4:42pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    2) If Arabs are to be allowed to live freely in Israel



    Zebadnads 451
    so you admit they cant now?

    turn for the books there. One by one you fools disprove your own point every time.

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  • 460. At 4:44pm on 28 Nov 2008, NoRashDecisions wrote:

    watermanaquarious (#110) and TheNottingHillHammer, I don't know how relyable and acurate those web cites waterman linked to are, but regardless, the fact that these findings exist, much less are the slightest bit true makes for some extremely depressed and unthankful feelings of mine!! According to this, the UK either far surpasses, or is at the very least better than the US in everything!! Why? Why does it seam that in every survey done, the UK is better than the US in everything save breathing? Its not fair!! What's the UK governmen's/British people's secret? We need all the advice we can get!


    Is there anything the US is better than the UK at? Anything? O God!! Is America (excluding the dictatorsip part) the newe western Zimbobwey?
    *gulp and shudder*


    I tell you all what. With all these people provideing lists of what their thankful for, save for my family I am most certainly not thankful for the dredful, inexcusible state of my unfair, and most times unequal nation!!


    How does the UK do it!?

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  • 461. At 4:55pm on 28 Nov 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    #455 Magickirin:

    "Jerusulem is the capital of Israel. Israel gets to decide where their capital not on outside body. If they want it moved to Eliat that is their decision."

    Yeah about the level of argument I was expecting, I suppose if they wanted to move it to New York that would be fine too?

    #457 zeneds:

    "Denial of the fact that Jerusalem was a Jewish city before there was Christianity or Islam in the world would be like suggesting Glasgow is an English City."

    Could you try reading what I wrote before you reply? I said that accepting Jerusalem as the capital of of Israel, a matter disputed by the Palestinians, would amount to a pre-condition for talks. Can you point to where I said it's not a Jewish city? Although now you mention it if there were any Jebusites still around they might have a few words to say on the matter...



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  • 462. At 4:57pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    456 which are you?
    probably not Israeli.(strange how few Israeli's we hear from on here).

    Jewish and/or zionist then.

    Well there are reports of a woman and child being released but then you don't read much eh?
    "The only people confirmed as leaving the building were a woman and child although it was unclear whether they had managed to escape or were released.
    The child was identified as the two-year-old son of Rabbi Gavriel Noach Holzberg, the main representative at the ultra-orthodox outreach centre."

    maybe they escaped but maybe they didn't.

    maybe they were released we don't know yet.

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  • 463. At 5:06pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

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  • 464. At 5:09pm on 28 Nov 2008, U13664982 wrote:

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  • 465. At 5:16pm on 28 Nov 2008, ladycm wrote:

    407. At 08:47am on 28 Nov 2008, fermeparkspurs wrote:
    "Apologies to all those commentators who use this Blog for serious discussion: I think my complaint is legitimate cause for concern."

    lighten up.

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  • 466. At 5:18pm on 28 Nov 2008, U13664982 wrote:

    Jackspammer Response to #459

    You can twist the truth of my posts to your hearts delight. Reality is reality.

    Israeli arabs are free to live in Israel. They are free to live under equality of civil law. They have their lives, property and civil rights protected by Jews. Israeli Arabs do not have to fight in the Israeli army. Israeli Arabs are freer and have more democratic civil and legal rights than any Arabs in Arab countries.

    This is in awsome contrast to the screams to make all Arab countries Jew-Free-Zones, including Gaza and the West Bank.

    It is you are arging against yourself not me.

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  • 467. At 5:20pm on 28 Nov 2008, CindyG3 wrote:

    The character, determination and sense of ethics in the man is why he was elected. I agree that he has to prove himself, but we in America have to be a part of our democratic process. The difference between America and most other nations around the world is that our nation was created on an idea - not DNA. This is a paraphrase from Thom Hartman (Air America - progressive talk radio).

    We, the people of America needed to believe that we could combat the stolen elections of the past administration and actually make a difference. Obama made us believe again in what our constitution represents. The rest of the world does not realize en masse that our elections have been stolen. We in America (who chose to find the truth) know this. Just talk to the citizens of Ohio and Florida and research the lawsuits in those states alone.

    The majority of Americans did not agree with our administration of the 8 years nor did they vote for Bush. Many of our votes in the past two elections were either not counted, people were turned away or left because the voting machines weren't working or there were not enough machines in counties that were highly democratic, etc.The utter embarrassment of the past 8 years hurts us Americans almost to the degree that Hitler destroyed the unity of the German people. I have German friends - and we have discussed the similarities. Bush and his cronies destroyed a country on false pretenses, led to the death, displacement and future hope of promise of more Iraqis than we can fathom. Not to mention the stress on neighboring nations handling the burden of all the refugees pouring in. Our poor young soldiers, holding on to the hope that what they are doing will actually mean something good in the future.Mr Obama had 1.4 million volunteers helping in his campaign. To the rest of the world. I say this: Do you see what we had to do to take our country back? It was nothing short of miraculous. Blood, sweat and tears.

    Give the man a chance.

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  • 468. At 5:23pm on 28 Nov 2008, U13664982 wrote:

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  • 469. At 5:28pm on 28 Nov 2008, U13664982 wrote:

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  • 470. At 5:35pm on 28 Nov 2008, U13664982 wrote:

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  • 471. At 5:47pm on 28 Nov 2008, U13664982 wrote:

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  • 472. At 5:48pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    461 not only disputed by the Palestinians also the UN.

    This is recognised by many . that is why the British have a consulate in Jerusalem and an Embassy in Tel Aviv.

    Coincidentally the american Embassy is not in Jerusalem but also is in Tel Aviv.

    This is true for the swiss the germans the chinese the well just about every one.


    Embassies are placed in the capitol .

    You say Jerusalem.

    Now you want to talk about the Mumbai jewish centre that was attacked.

    It is shameful.

    there may have been reasons that some terrorist decided to target that building, in their eyes.

    There are plenty of reasons that you see to attack others.

    Fact it was not an Israeli charity.

    Fact it was not a liberal charity.


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7752976.stm
    the roots not an excuse.


    http://www.chabad.org/

    This is the organisation. now there is nothing wrong with it, it is not a terrorist organisation.
    They do not incite murder or kill or anything.

    But they seem to be like Missionaries.

    They are described originally by the BBC as "Hardline Orthodox right"

    Seems to me reading their website they are just as any other charity helpers of people, not murderers.
    But why would they be targeted?

    Now the wiki entry gets a little interesting.



    "Schneerson took a very hawkish view of the Israeli-Arab conflict. He maintained that as a matter of Jewish law,[22] any territorial concession on Israel's part would endanger the lives of all the Jews in the Land of Israel and is therefore forbidden. He also insisted that even discussing the possibility of such concessions showed weakness and would encourage Arab attacks, and thus endanger Jewish lives.
    In USA domestic politics Schneerson supported government involvement in education, welcomed the establishment of the United States Department of Education in 1980, but insisted that part of school's educational mission was to inculcate in children the religious values inherent in the Seven Laws of Noah. He called for the introduction of a Moment of silence at the beginning of the school day, and for students to be encouraged to use this time for such improving thoughts or prayers as their parents might suggest.
    [edit]Bringing the Messiah
    Schneerson became infused with a drive to "accelerate the coming of the Messiah". With increasing frequency over four decades, he repeated that the Messiah's arrival was imminent. He instructed his followers to become active in kiruv - with the aim of educating non-orthodox Jews about orthodox Jewish practices. This approach to outreach became known as Ufaratzta (from Genesis 28:14), a Hebrew word meaning "you shall spread out" to implore his followers to bring the messianic times closer by spreading Jewish observance."

    "Consequently, he sought to unite the modern world with the teachings of Judaism."


    all religions self promote.So OK.

    But convert the world so the messiah will come sounds a bit "extremist" in intent.
    Now he could have been a leader and the followers Ignore his wishes and behave as good people do , helping and thinking.
    That I strongly suspect,I know none so have no first hand knowledge .

    Just as many christians will ignore the pope

    Just as many Palestinians who support Hamas at the elections would help you.

    You would have all Palestine suffer because of their leaders, or because of the radicals.

    How is that different from terrorists treating all Jewish people as one?

    Now again for zebadnads you are not very good at reading what people write, more so what you think, Violence is not the answer.

    No one should die at an-others hand, I am quite clear on that , and that includes ALL people born, wherever they are born.




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  • 473. At 5:53pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

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  • 475. At 5:55pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    Cindy G3

    thanks for returning sanity .

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  • 476. At 6:06pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

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  • 477. At 6:07pm on 28 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:

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  • 478. At 6:09pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

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  • 479. At 6:10pm on 28 Nov 2008, U13664982 wrote:

    Response to Jacksforge #463

    I refer to my post #331 in the BBC Editors blog; Off Limits by Jon Williams. This is a rebuttal to all that this poster Jacksforge had to say in that forum (however several of his initial posts were removed for breach of House Rules).

    There as here, this poster seeks to move the topic away from Obama in this case (BBC access in the other forum) and onto posts about Jews, Israel and Zionism.

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  • 480. At 6:35pm on 28 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:

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  • 484. At 7:09pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

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  • 485. At 7:10pm on 28 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:

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  • 486. At 7:14pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

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  • 487. At 7:15pm on 28 Nov 2008, U13664982 wrote:

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  • 488. At 7:15pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

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  • 489. At 7:17pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

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  • 490. At 7:20pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

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  • 491. At 7:22pm on 28 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

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  • 495. At 7:35pm on 28 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    Good Grief ~ since my post at 437 asking if we could have a period of reflection in respect of the dead, I have not only been roundly abused but have also found that my mild comments have been moderated.

    Worrying. Food for thought indeed.

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  • 496. At 7:35pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:


    You say the roots of the excuse (for the attack on Nariman House) is contained in a link you give to a BBC story about Jews studying in Israel: So you are suggesting that it is in someway understandable to you to kill innocent Jews in India due to actions of strangers to them in Jerusalem? This is racist.



    Where did I say that?

    Quote again. oh you never do strange that.


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  • 497. At 7:41pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

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  • 498. At 7:42pm on 28 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:

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  • 499. At 7:43pm on 28 Nov 2008, U13664982 wrote:

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  • 500. At 7:44pm on 28 Nov 2008, U13664982 wrote:

    TURN THE PAGE

    Hit the Next button

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