BBC BLOGS - Justin Webb's America
« Previous | Main | Next »

Unhelpful messages

Justin Webb | 15:44 UK time, Friday, 24 October 2008

McCain is now accused of palling around with dictators.

I cannot see this swinging votes to Obama in Indiana or Virginia or Iowa or anywhere else where he needs to close the deal BUT it does allow the conversation in these crucial last days to be dominated, at least in some areas, by unhelpful messages and defence rather than offence.

The Palin-McCain team made an effort to change the conversation with Joe the Plumber - but again and again, as here (from Kansas no less!), the thrust of the coverage has been unhelpful.

Comments

  • 1. At 4:03pm on 24 Oct 2008, olafpalme wrote:

    re: Pinochet... Not as juicylicious as Rumsfeld and Saddam.... but it'll do.

    Complain about this comment

  • 2. At 4:05pm on 24 Oct 2008, frayedcat wrote:

    But these topics you mention will not even reach a large audience because, for example, they only watch Fox and listen to Rush, just like large numbers of Obama supporters avoid Fox and laugh at Rush.

    US voters are able to insulate themselves from unwanted information - both sides can read and watch only news that reflects and repeats their own preferences and notions and can easily discount the source of any information that contradicts what they want to believe.

    Throwing more dirt into the pot may well affect the thoughtful and informed undecided voter ... but can that be more than, like, .000001%?

    Complain about this comment

  • 3. At 4:08pm on 24 Oct 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    Pinochet was a long time ago, whereas
    Chavez and Ayers are current, so this doesn't
    help with the youth demographic.

    Complain about this comment

  • 4. At 4:13pm on 24 Oct 2008, MICKBURKE wrote:

    I am beginning to feel sorry for John McCain (even though he says we should'nt). Every attempt McCain makes to take the initiative is undercut by these stories. I always thought that the first rule of a veep choice was that it should not hurt the ticket. And while Govenor Palin has helped with the Republican base she is damaging McCain with independents. These stories about her spending on clothes should not be an issue but when you have made your working class roots the focus of your appeal they take on a greater resonance. John Edwards got serious abuse for a $400 haircut while acting as a defender of the poor. Surley the McCain campaign should have thought how this would look. Their working class hero getting $150,000 worth of clothes etc in the middle of a economic crisis.

    Complain about this comment

  • 5. At 4:15pm on 24 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    Justin Webb, your comments take me back to when I began to take such a passionate interest in this campaign. Passionate because I believe that a change of direction is vital if the USA is going to claim back its previous good influence in the world.

    John McCain came into this campaign as a self-declared maverick and we have debated again and again that a "maverick" is an outsider, an undisciplined person, an adventurer.

    Whatever McCain's personal attributes, he advertises the total reverse of what the USA needs now - which is steady, calm leadership, a reversal from the failed trickle-down economic policy, and a person who is not going to be led into 'dumb wars'.

    There are lots of other vital issues like the dignity of moral leadership, the ability to articulate policy, and the ability to inspire the next generation. Important as these are, they are as nothing compared to electing a leader who knows where he came from, knows what he is going, and knows what challenges he will face in the future.

    Complain about this comment

  • 6. At 4:19pm on 24 Oct 2008, bayleyco wrote:

    Yes the coverage of McCain's campaign has been "unhelpful", mainly because it is so slanted and inaccurate. For example, an article on the BBC website today "McCain Seeks to Win Back Momentum" states that:

    "It (Palin's second deposition) comes as two leading Republicans announced they had chosen to endorse Mr Obama rather than their party's own candidate.

    They are former Bush White House press secretary Scott McClellan and Republican Minnesota Governor Arne Carlson."

    If anyone considers McClellan a "leading" Republican, they obviously are totally unaware of the controversy surrounding his book of this year.

    As to Carlson, the failure to indicate that his is a former governor (he left office over 10 years ago) is completely misleading.




    Complain about this comment

  • 7. At 4:22pm on 24 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Sauce for the gander...

    Peace and hollandaise
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 8. At 4:24pm on 24 Oct 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    Justin,

    Why can't we all just get along? And talk about Michelle?

    Sad Sam

    Complain about this comment

  • 9. At 4:25pm on 24 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    Justin are you going to give credance to the Daily Kos next?

    Complain about this comment

  • 10. At 4:28pm on 24 Oct 2008, Cartponybefore wrote:

    I must say it's somewhat of a relief to see defence and offence spelt correctly! Also, a relief to see McCain in a state were he ought to be today (Colorado) and NOT Pennsylvania. Probably too little, too late.

    Complain about this comment

  • 11. At 4:32pm on 24 Oct 2008, Cartponybefore wrote:

    There seems to be little probing or analysis over this 'sick grandmother' business. Rush Limbaugh probably goes a bit too far into conspiracy la-la-land here but he makes some good points.

    Complain about this comment

  • 12. At 4:35pm on 24 Oct 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    Justin, Kansas City is in Missouri. There is also a Kansas City, Kansas across the border, but it's small, and this link is to Missouri.

    Complain about this comment

  • 13. At 4:37pm on 24 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    Sam Tyler

    Glad to see your name back on the list of contributors. Won't wait until the mods open your post before commenting because that may be an hour or so, going on recent experience.

    There have been some imaginative Anti-Michelle posts over the past twenty four hours - to which the best answer has been the dark threat "Just wait till Sam hears about this".

    You''ll be pleased to hear that it seems to work - they suddenly go very quiet and none of them have come back to say "WHAT Sam"?

    Complain about this comment

  • 14. At 4:42pm on 24 Oct 2008, reformedspindoctor wrote:

    The other unhelpful message hitting the headlines is how the economic situation is worsening by the minute.

    I seem to recall some pro McCain guy spouting off about 'How McCain Wins" and saying...first the economic situation improves.

    Laugh. If it wasn't so serious, it would be funny.

    Complain about this comment

  • 15. At 4:42pm on 24 Oct 2008, Belmons wrote:

    What was that famous aphorism? "As ye sow, so shall ye reap".
    There is a very comic headline on this website today: "McCain seeks to regain momentum".
    What momentum, pray?

    Complain about this comment

  • 16. At 4:44pm on 24 Oct 2008, ChangeOfState wrote:

    As the old saying goes, the Republicans can dish it out but they can't take it. They've used smears and innuendo to destroy the electoral chances of Al Gore, John Kerry -- and even John McCain (in his primary battle with George Bush in South Carolina in 2000). The Obama campaign entered this race knowing the Republicans would try to use the same tactics against them. They also knew that these Republican tactics had been effective in the past because the victims of them either weren't anticipating them or responded to them passively. For this reason, the determined not to repeat either of those mistakes and have vigorously countered the tactics every time the Republicans have rolled them out. Part of their defence is a good offence, as you can see. Of course it's regrettable that they've had to counter in this way but, under the circumstances, they had no choice. One can only hope that their spirited defence in this election will make these tactics less attractive in future presidential elections. And one last thought: isn't it bitter ironic that the McCain campaign has hired for their scurrilous "robo-calls" against Obama the very firm that the Bush people used against them in 2000!

    Complain about this comment

  • 17. At 4:48pm on 24 Oct 2008, lawchicago wrote:

    Im not suprised the neo- cons have always palled around with anyone who was wealthy and powerful . The Bush's relationaship with the Saudis is a classic example.

    Seems in the neo -cons view anyone is Americas friend that suports pro american policies unconditionallly ( ie a corporate of the world ) Saddam was our buddy until he stepped over the line .

    As Bush said at a wealthy fundraiser " the rich "your my kind of people"

    McCain is just another out of touch elititst .

    Complain about this comment

  • 18. At 5:09pm on 24 Oct 2008, vagueofgodalming wrote:

    Hm. So McCain sees obsession with the communist threat as a criticism? Won't that seriously damage him with the base?

    Complain about this comment

  • 19. At 5:12pm on 24 Oct 2008, peterdough wrote:

    McCain's Joe the plumber tour is his last ditch effort, the premise being Obama saying, "I think that when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody". This got reinterpreted as "redistributing the wealth, not in policies that grow our economy and create jobs," with Palin adding that sounds like socialism.

    The hitch is that it is the company making $250,000 a year, not Joe the plumber. The Obama plan lowers taxes for people making less than $250,000 a year, as Obama pointed out, so that they can afford to buy from Joe the plumber. McCain now twists that as, "Obama wants to tax our small businesses," which is a false claim attempting to shift the focus away from Obama's small business rescue plan.

    McCain's only plan is to cut the corporate tax rate from 35 percent to 25 percent.

    Complain about this comment

  • 20. At 5:18pm on 24 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    Sam Tyler

    I'm glad I wrote my post before I read your wimpy comment # 8.

    She's been maligned, she's been tormented and Sam Tyler has been missing.

    One of the attributes of true handsome knights on white chargers is that they are ever on the alert to come to the aid of needy maidens.

    They don't just emerge yawning and scratching their a..ses when they feel like it.



    Complain about this comment

  • 21. At 5:18pm on 24 Oct 2008, Sankari wrote:

    Post #3; gunsandreligion wrote: "Pinochet was a long time ago, whereas Chavez and Ayers are current, so this doesn't help with the youth demographic".

    Ayres isn't "current"; he's a free man with no outstanding charges against him. He committed his crimes while Obama was still a child - "a long time ago", to use your own phrase.

    Chavez is irrelevant, since Obama has no political connection to the man and no reason for having one.

    By contrast, McCain was pally with Pinochet while Pinochet was busy murdering his own people under a ruthless dictatorship.

    Hypocrisy much? Oh, I think so.

    Complain about this comment

  • 22. At 5:19pm on 24 Oct 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    For nightmares, dream of McCain/Palin and the "unitary executive".

    Complain about this comment

  • 23. At 5:21pm on 24 Oct 2008, regular_josephina wrote:

    Just one more stop on the Express to Nowhere.

    Complain about this comment

  • 24. At 5:24pm on 24 Oct 2008, The Notting Hill Hammer wrote:

    11#

    There seems to be little probing or analysis over this 'sick grandmother' business. Rush Limbaugh probably goes a bit too far into conspiracy la-la-land

    ..................

    The sickness appears to be in Rash Limbo's head. The man is an out of control abusive crank who sounds like a late night drunk in a midwestern bar.

    Complain about this comment

  • 25. At 5:31pm on 24 Oct 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    #13

    Darn she looks $1m in that little black number in Ohio today. And I'll bet it cost less than $1k.

    Happy Sam

    Complain about this comment

  • 26. At 5:34pm on 24 Oct 2008, Mark wrote:

    15

    He not only needs momentum but viagra ... ;)

    8

    Sam, a few days ago I confused your love of Michelle with Ed's fulsome defence and suggested that he watched a youtube clip of the Ting Tings for a little light relief ... so my apologies to Ed, but Sam it's something I'm sure you would enjoy ... ;)

    And Justin, I'm sure Obama will come back to the economy ... another chunk was shaved off the markets today and everyday that happens McCain sinks another point or two ...

    Complain about this comment

  • 27. At 5:35pm on 24 Oct 2008, OhNeverMind wrote:

    Thanks #11.

    The Rush made some very good points indeed!

    Complain about this comment

  • 28. At 5:37pm on 24 Oct 2008, frayedcat wrote:

    I am now officially sick of campaign spin. My husband played a robo-call we received yesterday, apparently from Tom Ridge, and I could not understand a word of the boring robo-drivel-rant - I could not even tell whom he (the robo) was for or against.

    I am voting Obama - I like him and his intelligence, and I think Palin is incompetent and insane. I think McCain and Biden are boring, I think McCain is unintelligent and a big meanie even to his wives, and I think the GOP need a kick in the pants and out of office.

    Will any of this change the US? Doubtful.

    Complain about this comment

  • 29. At 5:42pm on 24 Oct 2008, middlecroony wrote:

    #11
    I wonder if Rush Limbaugh has ever had someone he loves dying? My mother almost died, and when I got the call, I ran every red light to get there so i could speak to her again. This topic should be off limits, and any decent person should know that. Lets hope she lives, and long enough to see the outcome of the election. Can you imagine how Obama would feel if he wins the election and the one great influential person left in his life could'nt see it? Devistating! Could we put politics aside for one second and just be human?!

    Complain about this comment

  • 30. At 5:55pm on 24 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    Oh, yet another diversion.

    At one time half the Congress (if not more) probably thought Pinochet was wonderful. As did a certain Maggie Thatcher. So? American politicians always cozy up to nasty dictators if it suits.

    The USA latched on to 'human rights abuse' in Chile a bit late, didn't they? Can't blame somebody like McCain for being behind the times. That's just him being him, isn't it?

    Meanwhile, in the real world, as reformedspindoctor wrote:

    "The other unhelpful message hitting the headlines is how the economic situation is worsening by the minute.
    I seem to recall some pro McCain guy spouting off about 'How McCain Wins" and saying...first the economic situation improves.
    Laugh. If it wasn't so serious, it would be funny."

    Why aren't constituents emailing both campaign headquarters with messages saying "For god's sake, get a grip!"? Here in the UK, by now this sort of thing would practically guarantee the lowest turn-out at the polls ever, not the highest.

    Maybe that's what the McCain camp would like: all the decent, 'liberal' voters turning away in disgust at the way this pathetic 'campaign' has developed and not turning out at all. . .

    I and most of my friends stopped even chuckling a couple of weeks ago. We just look at each other in bemusement now and shake our heads.

    Complain about this comment

  • 31. At 6:04pm on 24 Oct 2008, Mango_Salsa wrote:

    I'd just like to point out that Joe the Plumber is not actually a licensed plumber, nor does he belong to the union. He's simply a guy who works on pipes and drains. Using that same line of reasoning, I would now like to be known as Mango Salsa the Plumber. Let it be noted that I am also a chauffeur, chef, masseuse, winger, author, au pair, archer, carpenter, weight lifter, postman, delivery clerk and minister.

    It says something that McPalin are pinning their hopes on someone who also isn't qualified on paper to do the job he is being touted for.

    Complain about this comment

  • 32. At 6:09pm on 24 Oct 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    #20

    Au contrair, Madame. See #25, other post. And if you can point me to the other scurrilous attacks, I shall adress those.

    Even a knight has to oil his armour. Or supervise someone doing it.

    Sir Sam

    Complain about this comment

  • 33. At 6:20pm on 24 Oct 2008, bluepaddy13 wrote:

    Oh so Did McCain start his campaign in Pinchoets living room, did he ensure 100,000 ='s of dollar went Pinchoets way ??

    this is a pretty feeble attempt by no less than "Huffington Post" a liberal lying website

    Complain about this comment

  • 34. At 6:21pm on 24 Oct 2008, malcolmd3111 wrote:

    Governments and politicians the world over "pal around" with whomever they think will benefit them. The US has a blinkered view of the world, and can only "see" reality which confirms its distorted view of the universe.

    But are people typically like this? Not all, maybe, but certainly the majority. Whether its John Edward's haircut or Sarah Palin's clothes we all turn a blind eye to our flawed hero.

    I just hope that BO becomes President and that he has the Integrity to be a wise President for the people of the USA, and not just for the top 5%.

    We need a President who can see the big picture over the long term, make decisions and choices which are both sustainable and beneficail to the majority.

    Complain about this comment

  • 35. At 6:22pm on 24 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Helpful messages

    "At a rally Thursday in Indianapolis, a minister asked the crowd to pray for Dunham as a "source of comfort, healing and courage." Obama said his grandmother has been inundated with phone calls, e-mails and flowers from strangers."
    She is in my prayers, too.

    Peace and family
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 36. At 6:24pm on 24 Oct 2008, bluepaddy13 wrote:

    Also one meeting with Pinochet hardly means supporting him like Obama does with Ayers, its NOTHING and shows how desperate the Dems are now to try and smear instead of finding TRUE things to complain about !

    Complain about this comment

  • 37. At 6:25pm on 24 Oct 2008, Robert Bennett wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 38. At 6:26pm on 24 Oct 2008, tdimara wrote:

    McCain's days are numbered. He looked old and foolish yesterday in Pennsylvania ("Sen. Obama's supporters have said some bad things about you, and I couldn't agree more! I couldn't disagree with you - ...), and Palin has definitely proven to be a disastrous pick. It was bad enough when she called me "Joe Six-Pack" as if just because I work for a living means I live my life around buying six beers at a time for the next football game on t.v. that night, and now to find that she is spending three year's salary for a Joe Six-Pack-families on her wardrobe is just insulting.

    The Kansas City Star is actually a Kansas City, Missouri, publication, as we here in Kansas don't have any cities large enough for a major paper. We are just fortunate to have the academic centre Lawrence, which is happily not dominated by irrational religious thinkers like most all the rest of the state.

    Complain about this comment

  • 39. At 6:35pm on 24 Oct 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    #3 Gunsandreligion

    "Pinochet was a long time ago, whereas
    Chavez and Ayers are current, so this doesn't
    help with the youth demographic."

    Ayers THIRTY year old crimes are current? And if you believe there is some connection between Chavez and Obama please provide evidence.
    Pinochet was a brutal dictator and if you insist on dredging up Ayers anything the former Weatherman did pales next to the actions of Pinochet, therefore by the logic applied to Obama knowing Ayers this must mean that McCain intends to liquidate his political opponents and institute death squads to take care of dissenters; or does guilt by association only apply to Obama?

    Complain about this comment

  • 40. At 6:41pm on 24 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    From the Wall Street Journal, some more "unhelpful" messages for McCain...

    "The Barack Obama campaign occupies a storefront on N. Main Street across from the county courthouse. A stream of people filters through to pick up buttons or leaflets. The bulletin board lists a dozen staffers in this office and another in Bristol.
    [Commentary] AP

    Now try to find a John McCain outpost in Bucks County. Armed with an address, you'd get an unmarked, low, stand-alone office building on a four-lane state highway 15 minutes' drive from here. On the front door a small sign directs visitors to the McCain campaign around the corner and down the stairs to the basement. Two volunteers man phones, McCain posters or signs aren't readily available. Three paid staffers direct the Republican's campaign from a single office in this critical battleground."
    Oh, well, Arizona's not all that bad a place to lick your wounds...

    Peace and plenty of beer
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 41. At 6:46pm on 24 Oct 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    It's too bad that you guys don't see Obama
    for what he is. And, most of you have obviously
    never had to meet a payroll.

    Yes, the economy is bad. But, that is no
    reason to discard our liberty.

    And, I am going to go out on a limb right now.
    I am predicting that Obama shall make a
    huge slip (again) before the election, and that
    the election will actually be very close, coming
    down to the wire.

    Don't ask me how I know - you wouldn't believe
    it anyway. You're just reading the wrong
    set of tea leaves.

    And, with that, I bid adieu - I am going to
    be on vacation for a week.

    Complain about this comment

  • 42. At 6:59pm on 24 Oct 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    Peace, Ed, thanks for visiting my blog,
    even though we are coming from very
    different viewpoints.

    God bless us all, we are going to need
    it in the years ahead.

    Complain about this comment

  • 43. At 7:00pm on 24 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #31

    You know Joe did not asked to be in this position.

    He asked a valid question which Obama fumbled. That he is not a member of a Union is a plus, since the need for unions has long since past.

    All they do now is protect workers who deserved to be fired and give fat pay checks to union leaders.

    The name Robert Poli and George Meaney mean anything to you?

    Complain about this comment

  • 44. At 7:04pm on 24 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    The making (and un-making) of a candidate

    Well worth a read. Palin comes in at page five or six...

    Peace and lipstick
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 45. At 7:04pm on 24 Oct 2008, Cassandra wrote:

    #4

    Well said.

    As for Palin helping with the Conservative base. Here's where the RNC's attitude towards her really illuminates their thinking process. They don't believe that anyone except the far, far left could disagree with them. Ergo, their choice would certainly appeal to a broad spectrum of the electorate.

    When, after an initial flurry of interest, a huge chunk of America said roughly, "Are you barking MAD?", they were stunned. Then was born a bunch of non-issues that are well within the range of their usual fall-back position. If they aren't connecting on real issues they throw in something that they can start a panic with.: "Eeek a commie!" Or you can fill in "terrorist" or even a "convicted rapist" (Willie Horton) or, in this case, "college professor". I don't know about you but some of my professors were really, really scary.

    Complain about this comment

  • 46. At 7:06pm on 24 Oct 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 47. At 7:08pm on 24 Oct 2008, proles wrote:

    Incredible! Doubly so! The Huffington Post cerainly makes a valid point but it's one that could be made about virtually every Republica/Democrat Duopoly Party pol of the last century - they've all enthusiastically supported complaisant dictators around the world who further the schemes of American empire builders. JFK and his brothers were big boosters of Latin American dictatorships, among others. From Somoza to Trujillo to Stroessner to Noriega, etc., etc., successive US administrations have embraced dictatorship in the service of empire, unfailingly. What's so incredible about the Huffington Post blog like other sleazy partisan attacks is that it fails utterly to mention the CIA role in bringing about the coup to in the first place - as does this blog -that overthrew the democraically elected government of Salvador Allende. That's what's truly "unhelpful" to say the least. To whitewash America's sordid foreign policy skullduggery. Senator Ted Kennedy and the rest of his Democratic cohorts were fully aware of this at the time and didn't utter a peep of protest. And now Chavez and Morales and their allies are being viewed the same way as Allende once was. And they and any others that follow this path away from the dictates of Washington may very well find themselves in for the same treatment as Allende - whether it's undertaken by McCain or Obama makes little difference.

    Complain about this comment

  • 48. At 7:08pm on 24 Oct 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    #26

    Mark,

    Yeah baby!

    Sam Powers

    P.S. It's Friday, why aren't you down the pub?

    Complain about this comment

  • 49. At 7:09pm on 24 Oct 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    Mango_Salsa (#31), some people think that the "Joe the Plumber" encounter with Obama was a setup, designed to produce a clip intended to discredit Obama's tax plans. It backfired. If this Republican team can't even get their "dirty tricks" right, can they be expected to do anything else right?

    Complain about this comment

  • 50. At 7:13pm on 24 Oct 2008, AAlvinTwiningham wrote:

    #31, Joe the not-a-plumber also owes about $1200 in back taxes.

    On the topic of diversions, has everyone heard the one about the poor McCain campaigner from Texas who was brutally beaten and robbed by an Obama thug who carved a "B" (for "Barack acording to her) in her face? It made the headlines in the Pittsburgh news this morning.

    Ten minutes ago I found out it is all most likely a hoax. The girl has told multiple conflicting stories and the "B" (why not an "O" for Obama?!?) is backwards, suspiciously like she had done it in a mirror!

    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08298/922564-100.stm

    Complain about this comment

  • 51. At 7:15pm on 24 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    The number that explains everything

    "Fifty-nine percent of registered voters think McCain's economics would favor the wealthy; just 11 percent the middle class. Far more than being a "center-right" country, this is a middle class country, and a candidate who fails to speak to the concerns of the middle class does so at his own peril."
    Peace and Nate Silver
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 52. At 7:15pm on 24 Oct 2008, TogNewman wrote:

    I am afraid that Justin Webb is very unaware of how disapointed the American public is with 8 years of the Bush administration. Bush and his buddies have turned the USA into a third world country! Jason probably only speaks with other reporters rather than taking the trouble to get to real Americans. Tog Newman

    Complain about this comment

  • 53. At 7:17pm on 24 Oct 2008, SaintDominick wrote:

    In my opinion, the best thing Obama could do at this late stage of the presidential campaign is to send a positive message focused on the need to unify the country and establish a contrast between his bid for the presidency and the negativism of the McCain's campaign.

    Quite frankly, most Americans have no idea who Pinochet was and do not object to right wing dictators since they often support US interests. Mubarak and the House of Saud are examples of the latter. In fact, if people learn that Pinochet opposed Castro they may actually approve of McCain's decision to meet that thug.

    Judging by what I see and hear in Florida I would say that McCain will carry this state by a comfortable margin. In fact, Obama has a better chance of winning Virginia, and even North Carolina and Ohio, than he does Florida.

    Complain about this comment

  • 54. At 7:17pm on 24 Oct 2008, Cassandra wrote:

    Someone said that Rush was like the drunk you meet in a bar....

    Isn't that being a little hard on the drunk?

    Picking on someone's dying grandmother is a new low even for Rush, but it highlights the just-plain-mean personality of some of his kind. Cold.

    If this is the type of story you want, why not read about Carol McCain's horrific injuries and John's resulting abandonment. Cold.

    www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1024927/The-wife-John-McCain-callously-left-behind.html -

    Complain about this comment

  • 55. At 7:20pm on 24 Oct 2008, TheHandOfHistory wrote:

    "Palin-McCain"

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :D

    Complain about this comment

  • 56. At 7:24pm on 24 Oct 2008, Cartponybefore wrote:

    #29 Clearly this is a tricky subject and please, heaven forbid anyone dies. But your reaction was a natural one-busting every red light, etc. Obama has waited 2 days, during which time his grandma might have died, surely? I won't say any more on the matter since it's not my country at stake.

    Complain about this comment

  • 57. At 7:28pm on 24 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    McCain Adviser Endorses Obama

    "This week, Fried announced that he has voted for Obama-Biden by absentee ballot. In his letter to Trevor Potter, the General Counsel to the McCain-Palin campaign, he asked that his name be removed from the several campaign-related committees on which he serves. In that letter, he said that chief among the reasons for his decision "is the choice of Sarah Palin at a time of deep national crisis.""
    Rats and sinking ships come to mind....Press releases touting his presence on the advisor panel

    Peace and rat poison
    ed
    Thanks to the raving leftist Wall Street Journal ;-)

    Complain about this comment

  • 58. At 7:35pm on 24 Oct 2008, thesnowman21 wrote:

    "(from Kansas no less!)"

    Actually the Kansas City star is based in Missouri like most of Kansas city. After living in Kansas City I know how it annoys people when they think they live in Kansas. It must be like when Americans think Britain is always referred to as England, it always annoys me.

    Complain about this comment

  • 59. At 7:35pm on 24 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Tdimara,

    " We are just fortunate to have the academic centre Lawrence, which is happily not dominated by irrational religious thinkers like most all the rest of the state."
    Including my favourite classicist, Stanley Lombardo, who also teaches Zen

    Peace and Tao
    ed
    "Use TAO to help rule people
    This world has no need for weapons
    Which soon turn on themselves
    Where armies camp, nettles grow;
    After each war, years of famine.
    The most fruitful outcome
    Does not depend on force,
    But succeeds without arrogance
    Without hostility
    Without pride
    Without resistance
    Without violence.
    If these things prosper and grow old,
    This is called not-TAO.
    Not-TAO soon ends.
    Pu tao tsao i"






    Complain about this comment

  • 60. At 7:36pm on 24 Oct 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    #31, Mango, I hate to be the one that points
    this out, but in the US, one does not need a
    license to be a plumber.

    One does need a contractor's license to be
    able to write contracts in excess of $1500 in
    most states, but anybody can be a plumber.

    There is also no such thing as a "plumber's union,"
    and if there was, it would be illegal to force
    Joe to belong to it.

    Complain about this comment

  • 61. At 7:36pm on 24 Oct 2008, onithor wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 62. At 7:43pm on 24 Oct 2008, Roberto Carlos Alvarez-Galloso wrote:

    Both Republicans and Democrats support dictators like Castro and Chavez. In fact, both parties have acted like dictators.

    Complain about this comment

  • 63. At 7:45pm on 24 Oct 2008, altheteacher wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 64. At 7:47pm on 24 Oct 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 65. At 7:48pm on 24 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Hello Roberto!

    What's the news from Florida?
    (I'll know when the Mods (who are as Gods) clear your message)

    Peace until
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 66. At 7:48pm on 24 Oct 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 67. At 7:49pm on 24 Oct 2008, Cassandra wrote:

    #37

    If there were even the most remote chance that there was ANY irregularity about Obama's birth certificate, don't you think that the RNC, Palin, and McCain himself would be shouting it aloud.

    And FOX News would have minute by minute updates of Republican spokespersons' shocked reactions.

    The McCain camp really need something - anything - to get votes. Yet, nothing. Is McCain in on the conspiricy of silence? Get real.

    Once again for emphasis: FOX News doesn't use this "story". McCain doesn't. Palin doesn't. The RNC doesn't. Even Murdoch doesn't. IT'S NOT REAL.

    Complain about this comment

  • 68. At 7:50pm on 24 Oct 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    #41

    guns,

    Enjoy the break.

    For the record I make a payroll every week, andI favor Obama for his economic policies pure and simple.

    pax vobiscum

    Sam

    Complain about this comment

  • 69. At 7:52pm on 24 Oct 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    #36

    Paddy,

    Can you provide some evidence of 'Support' that Obama has given Ayers. Tangible, fact based evidence?

    Inquisitive Sam

    Complain about this comment

  • 70. At 7:56pm on 24 Oct 2008, AAlvinTwiningham wrote:

    @43

    The point is not that Joe is not in a union. he is not even liscensed to do plumbing work in Toledo, he owes back taxes, and the company he claims to want to buy does not make close to $250K per year according to reports so would not face increased taxes under Obama's plan.

    Even more to the point, how can McCain claim to cut taxes AND continue burning through $10 bil a month in Iraq!?! That just does not pass the common sense test. If he only had the guts to come out and say "Hey, we need to win this war and we need your taxes to do it" like GWB should have done seven years ago I could respect him.

    Complain about this comment

  • 71. At 8:04pm on 24 Oct 2008, Cassandra wrote:

    Re the 'bumper sticker attack", this is from CNN:

    "A Texas woman who told Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, police she was assaulted at an ATM by a man angered by a John McCain bumper sticker on her car admitted Friday she made up the report, the assistant police chief said Friday. "

    Interesting mind set.

    Complain about this comment

  • 72. At 8:04pm on 24 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Michelle to face satire on SNL

    So there!
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 73. At 8:08pm on 24 Oct 2008, donk_e wrote:

    Justin,

    Does he really need to 'close the deal... in Iowa'?

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/ia/iowa_mccain_vs_obama-209.html

    Complain about this comment

  • 74. At 8:17pm on 24 Oct 2008, HovelinHermit wrote:

    What must motivate a 23 year old woman to mutilate her own face (well, scratch it) by engraving a letter B on her cheek (well,actually a mirror image B, she was obviously looking in a mirror!), daubing her face with eye make up and then putting in a call to police to say she had been mugged and assaulted.

    Not only was the perpetrator a "big black man", but he was a political mugger as he noticed the McCain bumper sticker on her car which prompted him to engrave a reversed out B on her cheek. Some reports also say she was sexually assaulted, some that she was struck so hard she was rendered unconscious.

    So, we have a political, dyslexic, sexually charged, black mugger... I think not.

    so, I come back to the original question, what on earth would possess a person to do such a thing? Was it to stir up inter-racial hatred? Cause rioting on the streets between the white and black population? Was it simply to rally voters to McCain by using imagery of the big, black bogeyman against Obama?

    My own view is that this is the sad result of the dirty world of politics in America, that knows no limits to the depths of lies and slander it will go to in order to gain power.

    I fear that if Obama wins, there will be a push by some in America to try and destabilise things, perhaps Bidens comments of something to test the new presidents mettle will come true. Sad really, because America could be a great nations, instead it is descending in to the mire of corruption and hate that would be more expected of a third world nation.

    Complain about this comment

  • 75. At 8:26pm on 24 Oct 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    gandr (#60) is wrong about licensing. For one thing, licensing of contractors is done by the states, not by the US. In most states, some kinds of work must be done by a licensed contractor. Generally there is an exception which allows homeowners to work on their own homes without a license, but subject to required inspections.

    Complain about this comment

  • 76. At 8:28pm on 24 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    #2 "US voters are able to insulate themselves from unwanted information..."

    Hilarious. As opposed to, say, British voters, who are quick to read viewpoints they find distasteful ? Nope ! No problem with any other voters worldwide... just Americans !

    It's this sort of nationalistic bigotry that caused European nations to destroy each other in two world wars.

    And who had to step in to save you from yourself ?

    Complain about this comment

  • 77. At 8:33pm on 24 Oct 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 78. At 8:35pm on 24 Oct 2008, mary gravitt wrote:

    Perhaps they mean that McCain is palling around without dictation. He can be irrational at times.

    Complain about this comment

  • 79. At 8:35pm on 24 Oct 2008, playunextyear wrote:

    And breaking news of yet another McCain grenade that has exploded in his face. The McCain worker who was allegedly attacked and had a 'B' scratched (not cut, as was reported) into her face, has admitted to police that she made it all up.

    For the future good of his party, McCain needs to conduct an investigation into whose bright idea it was to suggest running with this story without checking it out.

    And he ought to take a good look hard look at the quality of his own judgments in this campaign.

    Complain about this comment

  • 80. At 8:37pm on 24 Oct 2008, HovelinHermit wrote:

    #62 - Chavez is a dictator? Really? since when?

    Complain about this comment

  • 81. At 8:38pm on 24 Oct 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    Here's a link to a document pertaining to the licensing of plumbers in the state of Ohio:

    http://www.contractors-license.org/oh/Ohio.html

    It's so easy to find this stuff, I don't understand why people just talk off the top of their head about something they know so little about.

    Complain about this comment

  • 82. At 8:44pm on 24 Oct 2008, rmj999 wrote:

    Here's my take on this election. A good politician is able to get their ideas discussed. In the media and by common folks and even the world. If no one is talking about your ideas and your plans you can't effectively lead. That's almost the definition of leadership. An election is the ultimate "leadership" test. Can you lead the discussion. Obama is clearly a leader (whether you agree with his ideas or not).

    W. Bush was a great leader. Imagine if no one had discussed his ideas on security, the Bush Doctrine, Iraq (like now, for example). At a critical time he turned the entire world discussion to an invasion of Iraq. That is leadership.

    The ability to manipulate the media is a critical skill that a true leader must have. Again Obama passes this test and McCain fails (Bush passed but now is failing). This skill is independent of actual policy or party affiliation. But it is a skill that is neccessary for a US president to be effective. Or you have Jimmy Carter instead of Bill Clinton. Or Nixon instead of Reagan.

    Complain about this comment

  • 83. At 8:50pm on 24 Oct 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #67. nessie1945:

    "#37

    If there were even the most remote chance that there was ANY irregularity about Obama's birth certificate, don't you think that the RNC, Palin, and McCain himself would be shouting it aloud."

    Unfortunately, by removing that post, the BBC moderators give the impression that perhaps there is something to cover up. At #77, I provided a link which purports to show that the birth certificate in question is a forgery, but now that #37 has been deleted, whether it will pass moderation has yet to be seen. The seriousness of a possible forgery is something so inflammatory that perhaps broadcasters don't want to touch it because of the potential ramifications.

    A conspiracy of silence?

    Complain about this comment

  • 84. At 8:51pm on 24 Oct 2008, oldnat wrote:

    It's getting a bit much when the Queen is copying Palin!

    Today, Lizzie dropped the puck to start an ice-hockey game in Slovakia.

    Complain about this comment

  • 85. At 8:57pm on 24 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    #17 "Seems in the neo -cons view anyone is Americas friend that suports pro american policies unconditionallly ( ie a corporate of the world ) Saddam was our buddy until he stepped over the line ."

    Perhaps you should review the machinations used to assist Saddam in 1979.

    Hmmm... who was president in 1979 ? Jimmy Carter... Neo-Con ?

    Complain about this comment

  • 86. At 9:03pm on 24 Oct 2008, IndependantUSA wrote:

    Sam "we should talk about Michelle" now don't be jealous but I saw her in person Tuesday and she was awesome. She is much more beautiful in person and totally gracious. My son said "...and that is just his wife imagine how amazing the candidate is." Here is a person like me not an admirals son married to an heiress.

    Complain about this comment

  • 87. At 9:09pm on 24 Oct 2008, TMacPen wrote:

    Having seen and read the various stories about McCain and Obama, I can say honestly that there has been excessive media favoritism toward Obama. Some of the questions asked of him (birth certificate, campaign records, even ties to Ayers; a Chicago professor where Obama lived and was even listed as an important source in a book together) might have been various attacks to sling mud, but Obama himself has really dipped himself into it when he made the comment about 'spreading the wealth around'. I read the figures from the IRS and the top 5% income in the US is from the 155k level and up. (Not the 250k magical number he claims). We are not a socialistic nation and he will have a serious fight (as he is finding out now) if he tries to push that issue. All mud and smokescreens aside, what is really at stake is the first black American running on a very liberal ticket (almost socialistic) with tons of money, against a conservative old warrior. Biden and Palen almost cancel each other out for different reasons. McCain might not be exciting, but Obama is trying to forge a path from Kennedy (including radical 'new ideas' that almost got us into WW3). FDR gave us a taste of socialistic programs to get us out of the depression and all it got us was social programs that led to chains for welfare and eventual supersized government. Republicans haven't been too much help either, but they did get us out of the Vietnam War (that a democrat got us into in the first place). We should have a better choice, but with most of registered (and unwilling to really change to our core principals: the constitution for example) voters as democrats, not much will really change except for more socialization. I only hope 'The One' doesn't become the ultimate National Socialist and we end up with a rainbow for a flag (instead of the previous National Socialist symbol: Swaztika!) Could happen, he is using the same tactics that old Adolf used with some of the same initial results. (Yes, I have read history carefully and the old German Republic was wiped out by carefully orchestrated crisises. It can happen, and will be even easier with Democratic Congress and even replacement of Supreme Court Justices comming up shortly). God help us all. (Well, until the liberals prevent me from even saying that aloud).

    Complain about this comment

  • 88. At 9:11pm on 24 Oct 2008, icetayoa wrote:

    Justin is what can be referred to as agent provocateur.

    I bet he does not believe 3/4 of what he posts. he just does it to make all of us have a go at each other.

    i too, has also noticed that the BBC will pretend to want to say something fair about Mcain, only for them to resort to Mcain/Palin bashing if you are unlucky enough to read the story further. CNN too are guilty of the same thing.

    I dont blame neither, i guess they have a stake in the elections. Obama is a media creation, so it doesnt help their numbers if they savage their own invention.

    Complain about this comment

  • 89. At 9:22pm on 24 Oct 2008, Dutchange wrote:

    POLL NUMBERS, # 169, British-ish

    "Why is it that the Right (despite all the claims of 'freedom' and so on) always tend towards the methods of dictatorship? "

    It was probably a rhetoric question, but if not, it's quite easy to understand why neocons work that way:
    It's just their way of life, from cradle to grave. Just for fun, let's call it the four commandments of ubercapitalistic religion:
    1) Get tough. Compassion is for the weak.
    2) Never surrender: Your ideas are never wrong.
    3) The world is at war, on all levels. To win is to survive.
    4) All tools may be used against unbelievers.

    For ubercaps who cannot put aside the older religion, there is a fifth (more complex) one:
    5) As the old and new book of wisdom do not match on any point, use the wisdom of the new at your family and friends, and
    the wisdom of the old at the outside world, which is - by capitalistic definition - heathen territory.

    With such a (simplified, I admit) mindset, you get very far in business if you're lucky and intelligent in a particular way.
    When the prize is won, a few of the successful will get troubles with their conscience and become philanthropic, but the perfectly brain-washed types will go Gordon Gecko all the way.
    In this view, dictatorship is the ultimate goal of the Winning Game (and almost opposite to the Buddhistic view): Even all of your enemies combined cannot make you lose!
    Looking at this, I consider communism to be the most inhumane political system (tiranny accomplished), and socialism the more humane one (tiranny improbable)
    So, to say that socialism is almost communism, is pretty weird. Communism and Ubercapitalism are more comparable: Instead of 1 bully, you have a limited amount.
    Any sound capitalistic system cannot survive without a social basis.

    Can anyone tell me how the computerized process of counting votes will be guarded ? To me it looks very susceptible to fraud. If the name of a candidate flips to another somewhere beyond the local check, who will notice it? Maybe paperwork is saver, after all...

    Liked #207 in the last blog, although I think the last sentence is a bit too positive :-)

    Xie_Ming, sorry to make this remark, but sometimes I suspect you're a roboposter ;-)
    (#22, among others). Why repeating the same horror again? I have the feeling you could tell us much more interesting stuff...
    I cannot have a nightmare with McKane co-starring... if I close my eyes, his voice reminds me of Kermit's. Nice to fall asleep with ;-)

    Have a Zenful weekend,

    Ange.

    Complain about this comment

  • 90. At 9:29pm on 24 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    #30 "At one time half the Congress (if not more) probably thought Pinochet was wonderful. As did a certain Maggie Thatcher. So?

    American politicians always cozy up to nasty dictators if it suits."

    And, as your post points out, so do British dictators ER excuse me ! "prime ministers".

    Who, being European, are completely blameless for any of the world's problems.

    Complain about this comment

  • 91. At 9:34pm on 24 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    #30 "Why aren't constituents emailing both campaign headquarters with messages saying "For god's sake, get a grip!"?

    Here in the UK, by now this sort of thing would practically guarantee the lowest turn-out at the polls ever, not the highest."

    So let's get this straight... with as big a mess as the UK is in, with the pound crashing relative to the US Dollar, you would AVOID the polls ?

    I wouldn't be proud of that.

    So go ahead. Sit around and snicker at others in "bemusement".

    Complain about this comment

  • 92. At 9:39pm on 24 Oct 2008, icetayoa wrote:

    #49 & 31

    Mango_Salsa (#31), some people think that the "Joe the Plumber" encounter with Obama was a setup, designed to produce a clip intended to discredit Obama's tax plans. It backfired. If this Republican team can't even get their "dirty tricks" right, can they be expected to do anything else right?

    U guys are truly incredible!! This is propaganda gone into over drive by you guys.

    If Joe the plumber was a republican set up, then it follows from your twisted argument, that the woman who voiced her concern about Obama being a muslim during one of Mcains rallies must definitely be a mole of the democrats.,

    To think someone slanted me on this board for referring to Obama has the DEITY of his apologists, really mystifies me.

    Complain about this comment

  • 93. At 9:41pm on 24 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    Lets end the myth that the Democrats ran non dirty campaigns.

    This years lies include:

    Spanish language station adds saying McCain want to deport Latinos
    McCain wants to have 100 year war.
    McCain is Bush term 3

    The Democrats have played just as rough as the Republicans in evey election.

    This time they also have the unscruplous MSNBC and Daily Kos helping them

    Complain about this comment

  • 94. At 9:47pm on 24 Oct 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    David_Cunard (#77), even if Obama were born in Kenya, he would still be a "natural born citizen" by virtue of his mother's status as a citizen and resident of the United States.

    http://www.uscis.gov/propub/ProPubVAP.jsp?dockey=c9fef57852dc066cfe16a4cb816838a4

    This whole thing is a red herring and it is going nowhere.

    Complain about this comment

  • 95. At 9:53pm on 24 Oct 2008, Cassandra wrote:

    #77

    The fact that a lawsuit has been filed is not evidence of its merit.

    The rest of the world might be shocked at the number and nature of the lawsuits filed in the U.S. And the number thrown out before they get to court. And the - er - peculiar ones that actually make it into a courtroom.

    As I've said: If there were ANY merit to the allegation - even the most remote chance that there MIGHT be a sliver of truth, it would not only be headline news, but a huge talking point at the McCain/Palin rallyies. (Not, now that I consider it, that a talking point needs to have much connection with... Oh, wait, I don't want to be "moderated.)

    Suffice it to say: McCain is no longer my cup of tea, but he's smart enough to see how useful the 'birth certificate' issue would be - were it real.

    On the other hand, he and Palin both talked to the campaign worker who faked her own "attack"....

    Complain about this comment

  • 96. At 9:56pm on 24 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    #38 "We are just fortunate to have the academic centre Lawrence, which is happily not dominated by irrational religious thinkers like most all the rest of the state."

    So all of those awful "religious" people are irrational ?

    That's plain, unadulterated intolerance, bordering on bigotry and hatred.

    Complain about this comment

  • 97. At 9:58pm on 24 Oct 2008, frayedcat wrote:

    Ease up on the poor young lady who beat herself up in Pittsburgh - a lot of people do that when they get to Pittsburgh - specially if they hit the bars that are on every city block - a drinking town with a football problem - Go Stillers! Go Penguins! Go Obama!

    Complain about this comment

  • 98. At 10:00pm on 24 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    "Why is it that the Right (despite all the claims of 'freedom' and so on) always tend towards the methods of dictatorship? "

    Perhaps they haven't mastered the wisdom of the Left - communism. Nope ! No dictatorship there !

    Where do you guys come up with this stuff ?

    Complain about this comment

  • 99. At 10:00pm on 24 Oct 2008, weezer25 wrote:

    gunsandreligion (#41) Seems like I've heard that kind of statement before. A stand by for Bush and Mccain when they re blowing smoke as well. Bush knew where those WMD's were-but don't ask him how. Mccain can fix the economy-he says he knows how. He can also find bin Laden. But as gunsandreligion just said-don't ask him how.

    Complain about this comment

  • 100. At 10:04pm on 24 Oct 2008, icetayoa wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 101. At 10:09pm on 24 Oct 2008, Cassandra wrote:

    #87

    Wasn't it Eisenhower who sent in "military advisors" first? And Air America - weren't there CIA connections there? It would be pretty hard to blame one person for a whole war....until, perhaps, more recently.

    If there is a 'manufactured crisis', I wouldn't expect it to come from the left.

    Nor do I expect a loss of civil rights to come from that direction. As a matter of fact the POST 9/11 curtailment of our civil liberties, wiretapping and so on have come from the r***T.

    Complain about this comment

  • 102. At 10:15pm on 24 Oct 2008, britinportland wrote:

    For those who read Justin's link to the DRUDGE REPORT yesterday

    http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20081023/Attack.McCain.Sticker/

    Bet he won't put *this* on his front page...

    Complain about this comment

  • 103. At 10:20pm on 24 Oct 2008, frayedcat wrote:

    #87 I believe you are incorrect - $250,000 - $280,000 is the official 2% cutoff number used by US and SBA for income - and per IRS most recent table shows adjusted gross income at $200,000 or more at 2.9 percent of filers (note poor don't file returns so percent of population would be lower).

    http://www.un.org/esa/desa/papers/2006/wp18_2006.pdf

    If it works that is a link to a 2006 UN paper on income inequality and econ hardship in US from 2006...you could almost draw a dotted line to the mortgage backed securities collapse...

    Complain about this comment

  • 104. At 10:20pm on 24 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    90. At 9:29pm on 24 Oct 2008, ricky78732 wrote:

    So go ahead. Sit around and snicker at others in "bemusement".

    Thanks for your encouragement, kind of you, but I wrote 'bemusement' not 'amusement'.

    I think you may have misunderstood me.

    Complain about this comment

  • 105. At 10:21pm on 24 Oct 2008, britinportland wrote:

    I'll take that back. He just did ;-)

    Complain about this comment

  • 106. At 10:22pm on 24 Oct 2008, stecha wrote:

    The media coverage of this election is of no surprise. FOX (if you call FOX news news...) is the only "conservative" leaning news source of major note, and lets face it most people (including conservatives) think it is a joke. The rest of the major media is and always has been "liberal" leaning news sources. Every American election the coverage favors the Democrats, yet in the end it usually close.

    I think this year maybe different because of some bad choices by McCain. His support of the bailout practically killed him with real conservatives and did kill him with libertarians. His attacks have been generalized and uninformative so even the attacks which hold water are not understood or taken serious. i.e. While Ayers is a legitimate concern, despite what the media says about it, Obama not only associated with Ayers but worked for him and pushed his agenda. McCain never gets far enough into it to explain this. We wont even go to his V.P choice, that has been a well documented failure.

    What I am saying is McCain has give the media plenty of ways to make him look bad. The media is loving it too It is so bad that some notoriously liberal leanings sources are trying to prop McCain back up at this point so the Democrats don't get too lazy thinking they do not need to vote cause it is so obvious they will win.

    Complain about this comment

  • 107. At 10:29pm on 24 Oct 2008, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    93 Ubermensch Kirin

    More unfounded, sweeping, and semi-literate generalisation

    "Lets (sic) end the myth that the Democrats ran non dirty campaigns.

    This years (sic) lies include:

    McCain is Bush term 3"

    That's not a lie. It's just an assertion you and your friend Johnny happen to disagree with.

    McCain is a Republican who has apparently backed Bush 90% of the time.

    But obviously, once elected, his policies will be completely different.....

    Complain about this comment

  • 108. At 10:35pm on 24 Oct 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    "Lets end the myth that the Democrats ran non dirty campaigns.

    This years lies include:

    Spanish language station adds saying McCain want to deport Latinos
    McCain wants to have 100 year war.
    McCain is Bush term 3"

    Well 1 and 2 there could be classed as rather distorting statements that McCain made, remember he said he was prepared to stay in Iraq for 100 years? Number 3 however is a prediction about the future and so is clearly on shaky ground, could be true could be false.
    Still compared with some of the down and dirty stuff the Republicans have been slinging at Obama all three seem a little tame.

    Complain about this comment

  • 109. At 10:37pm on 24 Oct 2008, icetayoa wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 110. At 10:46pm on 24 Oct 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    #83

    David,

    No. Just whack jobs. The birth certificate has been verified by the feds as genuine. But the crazies scream on.

    Bored Sam.

    Complain about this comment

  • 111. At 10:48pm on 24 Oct 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    #86

    Tell me more! Snark snark.

    Inquisitive Sam

    Complain about this comment

  • 112. At 10:53pm on 24 Oct 2008, mike wrote:

    #87

    Do you really understand the term 'socialism'? Socialism is a very broad definition, incorporating state or collective ownership of the means of production and distribution of goods and services.
    Although the USA is primarily capitalistic, it is not entirely. Socialism exists in abundance in the USA. Every industry has some form of county, state or federal control. We have laws and regulations to protect us from extremes. The governments provide care for veterans-is this socialism? The US Postal Service is Federally mandated is that so bad?
    The overwhelming majority of us do not want 100% socialism in the US. But nor do we want 100% capitalism. We want a delicate balance of the two-which it has always been. There are no states which are 100% socialist or capitalist.
    Although Hitler was a socialist in many respects, the National Socialists were right-wing extremists who used militaristic aims and ambitions to feed the controlled economy. In fact Hitler despised communism-a phrase many Americans use at Democrats.

    To compare Senator Obama and Democrats as anywhere near the National Socialists of Third Reich is absolutely propostrous! Please justify this comment. Did the Democrats seize power this election by burning down Congress? Have they burnt books and closed learning establishments? Have they killed millions of their own citizens in genocide? Concentration camps? Come on, get real about this. Please do not use idle throw-away comments about Hitler, the comparison does not do you justice!

    Complain about this comment

  • 113. At 10:55pm on 24 Oct 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    #99, weezer, I was never a Bush supporter.
    And, Powell is again, wrong as usual.

    Now, I must really pack for my trip.

    Sam, even though we disagree on many
    points, I'm hoping that bitter ale will appear
    on supermarket shelves after the election,
    either on the right or the left side of the isle.

    Complain about this comment

  • 114. At 10:56pm on 24 Oct 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    #79, 97

    Hermit, Cat,

    I would opine more they should adress the intelligence of the volunteers. She was 'attacked' on Liberty in Philly for having a bumper sticker? A Texan sent to Philly? What were they thinking, wavering voters would think 'This 20 year old kid has her poop in a group, and so much in common with me! I'm voting McCain!'

    How the heck would you park on Liberty to go to a cash point? What would any self respecting non recent college graduate be doing in that part of town? All the muggers know to go to Society Hill, the pickings are richer, literally. Plus what idiot does not know the ATM takes a piccy and keeps a record of you being there.

    When you employ crazies to help you, you have to be a little bit desperate.

    Perplexed Sam

    Complain about this comment

  • 115. At 10:57pm on 24 Oct 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    #72

    Ed,

    And I'll be having a string remonstration with those SNL guys if they do.

    Annoyed Sam

    Complain about this comment

  • 116. At 10:58pm on 24 Oct 2008, icetayoa wrote:

    The Politico has a lot of hot stuff..Enjoy this piece of history.


    Weeks prior to the 1948 election, many leading editorial writers and political columnists relied on early Gallup Polls, which predicted Thomas E. Dewey's win over incumbent Harry S. Truman. Truman's strategy was to bypass the press by taking his case to the people in a "whistlestop" campaign. An issue of the early edition of the Chicago Daily Tribune was handed to Truman after the election. The headline declared "Dewey Defeats Truman." Truman upset Dewey despite having the support of only 15 percent of the nation's daily papers.



    Complain about this comment

  • 117. At 11:05pm on 24 Oct 2008, Stephen Derry wrote:

    If Obama or Biden do or say something dumb, the liberal media will report it. Maybe through gritted teeth, maybe with a degree of spin, but they are media first and liberal second, and they have a duty to report news whether or not they like it.

    The same goes for Fox and the McCain/Palin ticket. Fox takes a lot more criticism for being a lot more biased, but even they have been unable to ignore some of the sillier things coming out of that campaign. In fact no good McCain/Palin clanger is complete without the words "Even Fox News..." somewhere in the story.

    If the neo-conservatives had the slightest opportunity to get Obama or Biden hauled up before an investigation committee, a senate committee or a Grand Jury in the middle of an election campaign, they would have no hesitation in doing so, but the only sniffs of impropriety have been decades old, not to mention totally without foundation. Sarah Palin may deny any wrongdoing, who knows she may even be wholly innocent, but she has got herself in a situation that doesn't play well, and McCain must have been aware this was on the radar even when he was picking her as his running mate.

    If this election is a PR battle (and to a large degree it is) then Obama is strolling to victory. He is not perfect, but his imperfections are few and minor. They are not under-reported, if there was anything genuine to report it would be siezed upon in blogs and forums like these and displace all the snippets of irrelevant trivia (discredited nonsense about his race, his citizenship and Bill Ayers) that are currently the only straws the conservatives have at which to grasp.

    Complain about this comment

  • 118. At 11:05pm on 24 Oct 2008, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    Reagan Appointee and Recent McCain Adviser Supports Obama

    "Charles Fried, a professor at Harvard Law School, has long been one of the most important conservative thinkers in the United States. Under President Reagan, he served, with great distinction, as Solicitor General of the United States. Since then, he has been prominently associated with several Republican leaders and candidates, most recently John McCain, for whom he expressed his enthusiastic support in January. This week, Fried announced that he has voted for Obama-Biden by absentee ballot."

    Complain about this comment

  • 119. At 11:05pm on 24 Oct 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #94. Gary_A_Hill: "(#77), even if Obama were born in Kenya, he would still be a "natural born citizen" by virtue of his mother's status as a citizen and resident of the United States"

    You apparently didn't read my post in its entirety, which has since been "referred to the moderators" as I anticipated at #83. I was quoting and responding to #37, rwbennett, (also now removed) who had made the statement about being "born in Africa" - I have made no such similar suggestion and in the final paragraph wrote If - and that's a big "if" - it were found to be true, etc.

    #95. nessie1945: "#77 The fact that a lawsuit has been filed is not evidence of its merit."

    I would have thought that was obvious, but there are eight of them and I did write "I don't usually give credence to such statements, but there does appear to be some rumbling about this issue." Unfortunately the Mods have chosen to remove the post along with a link which purports to provide visual evidence of a forgery. I had made it clear that I didn't agree with the conclusions. The matter could be cleared up in an instant for those who do believe that all is not what it appears to be, simply by releasing the long-form birth certificate.

    By removing posts which rationally show how the "other side" is behaving just buys into the notion that there is some kind of conspiracy to withhold the information; the moderators do no favours by censoring such posts, by so doing it simply adds fuel to the fire of conspiratorial theorists - of which I hasten to add, I am not one.

    Complain about this comment

  • 120. At 11:10pm on 24 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #107

    And Barack Obama has voted liberal party line in the Senate 96% of the time.

    And Harry Reid is far more unpopular than Bush as is Nancy Pelosi

    Don't let the truth get in the way of your obvious Obama worship.

    Complain about this comment

  • 121. At 11:11pm on 24 Oct 2008, icetayoa wrote:

    Enjoy this post. Its not mine, but i share its message and its a must read for the landsliders amongst us.


    The upset win of Harry Truman over Thomas E. Dewey in the 1948 election came after leading publications had confidently predicted Dewey's victory (e.g. New York Times headine: “Thomas E. Dewey’s Election as President is a Foregone Conclusion.”; Life Magazine: cover with Dewey's picture and caption reading, “The Next President of the United States"). Even on election night, the media still had difficulty accepting the fact that Truman could win. (see above photo). Shortly before his inaguration at a dinner of the Presidential Electors Association, the President also gleefully parodied the radio reports of the prominent broadcaster H..V. Kaltenborn, who on election night commented that the President's apparent lead in the early returns would be unlikely to hold.

    The Truman victory was also an embarrassment for the emerging public opinion polling community. Truman's 4.4 percentage point election margin contrasted with the pre-election polls predicting a Dewey victory ranging between 5 to 15 percentage points. After the election, analysts attributed the polls' failure largely to completing their surveys too early, thus missing a late swing in voter sentiment in favor of the President. Ironically, the polls themselves may have helped Truman's late surge to overcome Dewey when press reports of their surveys showing Dewey ahead energized the Democrats to mount late efforts to increase turnout, and made the Republicans over-confident of any need to get their own voters to the polls. George Gallup, founder of the firm bearing his name, was forced according to his son, "...to visit many newspaper clients after the election to lure them back after 30 canceled their poll service." Gallup's competitor, Elmo Roper, also faced potential ruin from the mistake. Reflecting years later, Roper's son said that he and his father, both Democrats, had decidedly mixed emotions: "We saw our man winning, but our company going down the tubes." See "Pollsters recall 1948 fiasco", [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    The election also was marked by Truman's withstanding splits in the Democratic Party over civil rights and the Administration's policy directed at containing Communism. After Truman supported passage of stronger civil rights legislation, the entire Mississippi and half of the Alabama delegates walked out of the Democratic National Convention, and the disaffected southerners then nominated South Carolina Governor Strom Thurmond to run on the States Rights' Democratic Party, or so-called "Dixiecrat" ticket. Another split was led by more liberal Democrats, who objected to the President's confrontational policies toward Communism and organized the Progressive Party, with its presidential choice Henry Wallace, a former vice president under Franklin D. Roosevelt and cabinet member for both Roosevelt and Truman until being asked to resign by Truman in 1946. Thurmond carried four states--Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and South Carolina--with 39 electoral votes, but Wallace, despite nearly matching Thurmond's popular vote share with 2.4%, failed to win any electoral votes (see 1948 Electoral College).

    Another feature of Truman's 1948 race was his famed "whistle-stop" train campaign in which he gave speeches to crowds from the back of the special "Magellan" train chartered by the Democrats. In Boston, an estimated 20,000 people greeted him at the station, and in all the President traveled over 30,000 miles and made 201 stops on the "whistle-stop" route. In addition to allowing Truman a relatively efficient, economical way to get his message out, the use of the train also reinforced his popular image as a leader who avoided pretense and understood the problems of the average voter, a perception that ultimately won over voters when faced with the choice of the rather aloof and haughty Dewey. Truman's success with the "whistle-stop" campaign continues in contemporary political races, where candidates seek to replicate the Truman image of reaching out to the people, now often through marathon bus or walking tours

    Complain about this comment

  • 122. At 11:14pm on 24 Oct 2008, dceilar wrote:

    Apologies if you may have already seen this, but I had to see Michael Moore on Larry King; so I thought I'll spread it around!

    Complain about this comment

  • 123. At 11:18pm on 24 Oct 2008, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    A neat summary of the various bizarre, insane theories flying around the rabid rightwing blogosphere.

    Read them there and it'll save time reading them here.

    The best is the one linking "Obama and Bill Ayers, Acorn, Tony Reszko, Charles Manson, the Chicago mob, the Illuminati, Freemasons, the Trilateral Commission, Jewish bankers, Nazis living in South America, Fidel Castro, the KGB, the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, Bigfoot, Area 51, the Harlem Globetrotters, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, the Bermuda Triangle....."

    Complain about this comment

  • 124. At 11:18pm on 24 Oct 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #96. ricky78732, in reply to #38tdimara: "So all of those awful "religious" people are irrational ?

    That's plain, unadulterated intolerance, bordering on bigotry and hatred."

    Now tell us, what is actually rational about an unseen, unheard, omniscient being? Once that has been determined, perhaps then a discussion about those who believe in such a creature can take place. Until then, there is nothing "bordering on bigotry and hatred."

    Complain about this comment

  • 125. At 11:24pm on 24 Oct 2008, turningblueandgrey wrote:

    108 -

    on dirty tricks, Republican robo-calls are being made to SW USA hispanic households, telling them they can vote by phone (which is a lie), the stamp-out-the-vote efforts by the right are underway as in past years

    71, 79 -

    at least - this time - nobody was lynched over such a lie, what a low and telling tactic in the Pennsylvania republican campaign.

    the interviews from rural western PA with 'won't vote for a black, he's not an American' voters are pretty shameful to read when I think of my rural central PA ancestor who was wounded at Gettysburg in the midst of 4 years service with the 11th Penns. Militia across PA, MD and VA...

    Complain about this comment

  • 126. At 11:26pm on 24 Oct 2008, OhNeverMind wrote:

    This is a sick parlour I will no longer dine in.

    Complain about this comment

  • 127. At 11:30pm on 24 Oct 2008, turningblueandgrey wrote:

    112 - the nazis were as much socialists as the soviet puppet states were democratic republics... but all that some people absorbed from that woeful history was the "big lie" tactic to bring to use with today's republican campaign.

    I am sure that a number of great past republicans are rolling over at these tactics and the evident misundertanding of what America is about and what they fought for...

    my family's respect for Ike was so great that I saw his funeral procession as a boy...

    Complain about this comment

  • 128. At 11:32pm on 24 Oct 2008, icetayoa wrote:

    OBAMACONS ENJOY THIS PIECE..YOUR DEITY IS GOING DOWN



    Obama Explains National Anthem Stance

    Sun, 07 Sept. 2008 11:48:04 EST, General Bill Ginn ' USAF (ret.) asked Obama to explain why he doesn't follow protocol when the National Anthem is played.
    The General also stated to the Senator that according to the United States Code, Title 36, Chapter 10, Sec. 171... During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed, all present except those in uniform are expected to stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. At the very least, 'Stand and Face It.'
    Senator Obama, Live on Sunday, states, 'As I've said about the flag pin, I don't want to be perceived as taking sides, Obama said. 'There are a lot of people in the world to whom the American flag is a symbol of oppression. And the anthem itself conveys a war-like message. You know, the bombs bursting in air and all. It should be swapped for something less parochial and less bellicose. I like the song 'I'd Like To Teach the World To Sing.' If that were our anthem, then I might salute it. 'We should consider to reinvent our National Anthem as well as to redesign our Flag to better offer our enemies hope and love.
    My wife disrespects the Flag for many personal reasons.
    Together she and I have attended several flag burning ceremonies in the past, many years ago. She has her views and I have mine'.

    Complain about this comment

  • 129. At 11:35pm on 24 Oct 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    #113

    Amen to that. And we still have our guns, and our Bibles.

    Contented Sam

    Complain about this comment

  • 130. At 11:39pm on 24 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    116: Yes, we know all about that, even us Brits. But it was 60 years ago! Times have changed, so has polling, and newspapers go to press much later now than they did in those 'hot lead' days.

    Anyway, most voters appear to get their 'information' or their likes and dislikes off the internet, not standing in a small crowd at the back end of a train. Judging from some here, they don't pay any attention to newspapers, TV or radio.

    So what was the point supposed to be?

    Complain about this comment

  • 131. At 11:46pm on 24 Oct 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #110.SamTyler1969: "The birth certificate has been verified by the feds as genuine. But the crazies scream on."

    The link I had provided, since removed, didn't look like the work of a crazy! Very detailed forensic information which needed to be seen by a computer imaging expert. But my point was that by removing such links, the BBC gives the impression that there is something to hide, rather than readers making up their own minds. Actually, I haven't read that "the feds" have verified the document but my inclination is to assume that, as you say, these are 'crazies'. However, there's a nagging feeling that where there's smoke, there's fire . . .

    Complain about this comment

  • 132. At 11:51pm on 24 Oct 2008, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    116 icetayoa

    "The Politico has a lot of hot stuff..Enjoy this piece of history."

    And then the Truman story.

    Any candidate who's behind drags out the Truman story - from 60 years ago.

    Granted, it's not over till it's over, only one poll really matters, yada yada yada

    However, I understood that one of the main reasons polls didn't predict Truman's win was that pollsters did phone polls - forgetting that poor folk didn't have phones then...

    AFAIK it's dragged out because, even though the polls do tend to tighten near the end, the candidate who's ahead around now almost always wins.

    Anyway, for one Ice T gets something right. "The Politico has a lot of hot stuff" is true. It has the following, for example:

    - 'Polls: White support for Obama at historic level' [Obama getting more white supporters than any Dem for 32 years]

    - 'Poll: Obama up in Ohio, tied in Florida'

    - 'Blame game: GOP forms circular firing squad - As McCain's presidential prospects dim, the finger-pointing and rear-covering begins'

    All at http://www.politico.com/

    Complain about this comment

  • 133. At 11:53pm on 24 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    I've just been thinking. Not that I don't do a bit of that occasionally anyway when I can spare the time.

    I don't think I've ever seen so much political 'discussion' of a current election that's been so rooted in the past:

    The War of Independence (240 years ago); concentration camps (from over a hundred years ago or 60 depending on taste); WW1, 90 years ago; the Nazis and Stalin, and WWII 70 years ago; the Weathermen and Pinochet 30 years ago; the British Empire any time from the mid-1600's to (apparently) the present day, and so on and so on.

    I thought it was us Europeans who were supposed to be always living in the past?

    Wakey wakey! It's 2008 and the 21st century, folks! Something tells me a lot of people around here are scared of the future. I'm scared of what this suggests to me might be in store for mine. I don't think many are paying anything like enough attention to it.

    Complain about this comment

  • 134. At 11:56pm on 24 Oct 2008, turningblueandgrey wrote:

    128 - if you want to keep posting lies and fabrications at least do not post such obvious fakes. You must be running low on ammo...

    Complain about this comment

  • 135. At 11:57pm on 24 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    118:

    Nice to see another rightist with the appropriate principles leaving the sinking ship. I'd have a little more respect for them (but not a lot) if they made less obviously self-serving announcements and said they were sorry.

    Complain about this comment

  • 136. At 11:59pm on 24 Oct 2008, BienvenueEnLouisiana wrote:

    Hello everyone!
    Election Day is very soon and we'll soon find out who will be taking over the White House from President Bush. Truth be told, the polls have been showing a respectful 50-46, or numbers similar to those, lead for Obama for weeks now and it seems that they will stay that way 'til Election Day. I know things look bleak for McCain, but I will stand by him and face the next Jimmy Carter style Presidency of Obama with content, knowing that I stood up and voted for the person and the principles I believe in, that I did not cave in to popular opinion and groupthink. I have made my decision with careful consideration and I will make my 1 and only vote count for McCain on Nov. 2. With my mind made up, I have no more worries, only anticipation for history in the making.

    For all of yall with election anxiety, I recommend this fun website below that I found recently:
    http://www.jibjab.com/originals

    Click on the top animation titled:
    Time for Some Campaignin'

    Enjoy

    Complain about this comment

  • 137. At 00:03am on 25 Oct 2008, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    # 120 Ubermensch

    "And Barack Obama has voted liberal party line in the Senate 96% of the time./And Harry Reid is far more unpopular than Bush as is Nancy Pelosi/Don't let the truth get in the way of your obvious Obama worship."

    Your lack of logic is matched only by your lack of objectivity, literacy, and facts

    The difference is that Obama doesn't spend half his time distancing himself from the Democratic House and Senate members. Whereas McCain never stops claiming how different he is from Bush. [For painfully obvious reasons.]

    I've seen polls saying the Congress and Senate are extremely unpopular. Do refer us to the polls showing that Reid and Pelosi personally have lower approval ratings than Bush.

    I don't worship Obama. I just think he's preferable to the alternative.

    If that makes me a 'phoney' - your description of Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu - well, I'd rather their company than yours.

    Don't let the truth get in the way of your obvious lies.

    Complain about this comment

  • 138. At 00:13am on 25 Oct 2008, BeebLeeMoore wrote:

    As Justin says, "the thrust of the coverage has been unhelpful" and clearly the intention is to keep it that way until polling day.

    As this poll shows, 70% of the American public thinks the media prefers Obama. 9% (this being the fraction of Americans with a sense of humour) think it prefers McCain, and the other 21% are sitting on the fence, or don't know. The American public always thinks the media favours the Dems, but 70%-9% is a wider than usual margin.

    http://people-press.org/report/463/media-wants-obama

    It goes without saying, but had better be said all the same, that the media has every right to be as biased as it likes - excluding of course those media organisations with licence obligations to give balanced coverage, and which rely on taxes, rather than customers, for their revenue.

    The political case for abolishing the licence fee has been enormously enhanced by the BBC's coverage of the US election in general, and Justin's blog in particular.

    Complain about this comment

  • 139. At 00:16am on 25 Oct 2008, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    128. At 11:32pm on 24 Oct 2008, icetayoa wrote:

    "OBAMACONS ENJOY THIS PIECE..YOUR DEITY IS GOING DOWN"

    1. Ice, it appears that no one has ever told you - writing in capitals [except v occasionally, for emphasis] is considered the equivalent of shouting on the Web. Somehow I doubt that will stop you.

    2. You posted a rather tedious and predictable, not to say libellous and smearish, attempt at right wing humour. Unattributed. My only query is [a] Were you trying to be funny? or [b] Were you actually dense enough to think it was true?

    3. 'Obamacons' is actually the shorthand for the increasing number of conservatives coming out for Obama - Powell, Weld, Eisenhower, Goldwater, etc, etc

    4. 'Messiah', 'The One', 'The Deity' etc, etc, etc ad nauseam. Gosh, that's darn clever, witty, new and insightful. With insights like that, you're absolutely bound to win. You betcha!

    Complain about this comment

  • 140. At 00:18am on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    128. At 11:32pm on 24 Oct 2008, icetayoa wrote:

    OBAMACONS ENJOY THIS PIECE.

    No need to shout. For anyone who is interested, it took me all of two minutes to find the source of this one and a lot longer to write this up with the html link, becasue I couldn't get that to work.

    It's from "JOHN SEMMENS: Semi-News -- A Satirical Look at Recent News"

    And you can read the full piece at http://azconservative.org/Semmens118.htm to gauge its veracity in case you don't understand the meaning of the word 'satire'. It happens to be on the "Arizona Conservative' website, by the way.

    I supppose some of us are now going to be doomed to repeat this for the rest of the election.

    Complain about this comment

  • 141. At 00:19am on 25 Oct 2008, 4theUSA wrote:

    For Post #28... I see that you "are apalled" at the treatment that this has gotten. Do you also feel that Sarah Palin's daughter's condition is off limit's? Or are you being just a tad hipocritical?

    I wonder.

    Complain about this comment

  • 142. At 00:23am on 25 Oct 2008, Cassandra wrote:

    128

    You might consider looking the Ginn/Obama/flag thing on a mythbuster site like Snopes before spreading it around as if it were the true.

    What bilge.

    When lefties bring up the first Mrs. McCain, the 90% pro-Bush voting record, Mr. Palin's AIP membership, (alleged) financial highjenks and so on, the righties don't seem to want to check the facts.

    An urban legend isn't much of an answer in response to a fact.

    My late husband was USAF (Ret.), and I doubt he'd appreciate (even as a life-long Republican) any branch of the U.S. military being dragged into such a blatent and obvious attempt to mislead the public.



    Complain about this comment

  • 143. At 00:31am on 25 Oct 2008, paulalancroft wrote:

    96.

    By definition religion is a faith which, not unreasonably, non-believers find irrational in the extreme.

    Complain about this comment

  • 144. At 00:36am on 25 Oct 2008, Cassandra wrote:

    #131

    Where there's smoke, there's fire."

    ???

    Since the birth certificate story has been debunked, maybe it's just the residue of all those false hopes going up in flames.



    Complain about this comment

  • 145. At 00:38am on 25 Oct 2008, Mark wrote:

    Sam and Ed

    Just back from the pub and enjoying a very nice South Australian Shiraz ...

    as for 48 Sam ...

    Glad you agree, although from Manchester Katie is better qualified by far to be VP rather than Sarah Palin... genuinely 'hot', intelligent, fun ... I'd like her to do the inauguration with his Bobness :)

    Complain about this comment

  • 146. At 00:44am on 25 Oct 2008, potatoman65 wrote:

    TmacPen @87

    "I can say honestly" that you really need to see a doctor about that case of paranoia you've got. It could develop into something more serious. Seriously.

    Complain about this comment

  • 147. At 00:53am on 25 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    #135 british-ish "I'd have a little more respect for them (but not a lot) if they made less obviously self-serving announcements and said they were sorry."

    I feel the same way about the British Empire.

    No nation in history (including today's US) has come close to the world wide planetary rape committed by the British Empire in it's 300 year reign of terror. The only thing close would be left-wing communism - a European invention.

    And now, many are excited about an African-American being elected as the most powerful human alive...

    ...perhaps atoning for the 330,000 slave trading ships which flew the British Union Jack.

    Care to apologize for that ?

    For 200 years, America has paid the price for Europe's slave trade.

    Complain about this comment

  • 148. At 00:57am on 25 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    #133 "I don't think I've ever seen so much political 'discussion' of a current election that's been so rooted in the past:

    The War of Independence (240 years ago); concentration camps (from over a hundred years ago or 60 depending on taste); WW1, 90 years ago; the Nazis and Stalin, and WWII 70 years ago; the Weathermen and Pinochet 30 years ago; the British Empire any time from the mid-1600's to (apparently) the present day, and so on and so on.

    I thought it was us Europeans who were supposed to be always living in the past?

    Wakey wakey! It's 2008 and the 21st century, folks!"

    Brilliant ! Anyone care to stop harping on the Crusades ? They were 800 years ago.

    We don't need to go very far back to see European genocide. 1995 Yugoslavia will suffice.

    And as far as systematic oppression... one need not look at America. Let's examine how Europe treats Romanis - "gypsies" - today.

    Complain about this comment

  • 149. At 01:03am on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    142:

    See my post 140. It began as a particularly clumsy piece of so-called 'satire'.

    Says a lot about anyone who repeats it as a 'true' story.

    Complain about this comment

  • 150. At 01:28am on 25 Oct 2008, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    141. At 00:19am on 25 Oct 2008, 4theUSA wrote:

    "For Post #28... I see that you "are apalled (sic)" at the treatment that this has gotten. Do you also feel that Sarah Palin's daughter's condition is off limit's (sic)? Or are you being just a tad hipocritical (sic)?

    I wonder."

    You are as accurate as you are literate

    There is no mention of anyone being appalled - or even 'apalled' - in posting 28. Or none that i can see anyway.

    Complain about this comment

  • 151. At 01:55am on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    All I can say, ricky78732, is that you must have been taught a very peculiar version of history at school.

    Seems my pseudonym makes me an easy scapegoat. Would you like me to apologise for the other half of my ancestry fighting in the Italian army in WWII, or the behaviour of that country in Ethiopia too? You seem to be preparing quite a long list for me; I wouldn't like it to be incomplete.

    Oh, and perhaps you'd like me to apologise for a relation on my (English) mother's side who emigrated to the US and married one of the few Congressmen who publicly stood up against McCarthy?

    Do I have to apologise for those English ancestors of mine who were among the earliest followers of John Wesley and were against slavery?

    It's not quite so simple, is it?

    Now, what about this bloody election??????!!!!!!

    Complain about this comment

  • 152. At 02:07am on 25 Oct 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #144. nessie1945: "#131 Where there's smoke, there's fire."

    ???

    Since the birth certificate story has been debunked, maybe it's just the residue of all those false hopes going up in flames."

    Actually, I wrote "there's a nagging feeling that where there's smoke, there's fire . . ." which is not the same thing as making an accusatory comment.

    With regret, it doesn't appear to have been entirely debunked, the posts and links have been "moderated". I for one wish it would be settled by the Candidate, he has nothing to lose. It should be such a simple task, but like a boil, it can fester away. Since Mrs Clinton's withdrawal, I've supported Mr Obama, and it just seems foolish to me to not respond to the charges. What harm can come from that?

    Complain about this comment

  • 153. At 02:08am on 25 Oct 2008, Cassandra wrote:

    149

    Hmmmm. So it went from satire to one of the more e-mailed bits of urban myth with hardly a pause.

    You make a good point - very revealing. Thank you for the link.

    Complain about this comment

  • 154. At 02:12am on 25 Oct 2008, endview wrote:

    I've always concidered myself fairly objective,whene it comes to most things,
    even politics, I read Time, watch CNN &BBC
    World News and other news providers on
    the internet. This being said, I have been watching the presidential race with a fairly
    high degree of interest and one thing that
    seems quite apparent is that when shown
    any negative advertising or negative com-
    ments made by the Mc Cain campaign,
    Mc Cain supporters appear to get very
    upset or angry with the comentator,reporter, or whoever is asking
    the question. I can see defending your
    point of view and your candidate but, hey
    check it out, cause it's all over these blobs
    too.

    Complain about this comment

  • 155. At 02:16am on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    ricky78732:

    I meant to ask: what would 'right wing' Communism be?

    Come to think of it, however, on behalf of the Brits, I would like to apologise to the Native American population of the USA for inventing the railway. If we'd known what the results were going to be over there, I'm sure we would have stuck with horses and canalboats.

    Complain about this comment

  • 156. At 02:19am on 25 Oct 2008, Stephen Derry wrote:

    ricky: we're sorry!

    But I think Britain started to make amends by not only abolishing slavery and the slave trade long before the USA, but also seizing slave ships wherever they were from and freeing those aboard.

    The colonial legacy left a mixture of good and bad, as you guys should know, but we haven't done any empire-building for over a century, many of our former colonies are doing a lot better for themselves than the motherland, and in the two big wars against imperial tyranny in the last century, we were there several years before the Americans each time!

    Don't diss the Brits, we're a small island but we've still got big pants.

    Complain about this comment

  • 157. At 02:29am on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    Oh. Have they all been taken back into the asylum again? They're not being allowed out that long these days are they? I think we ought to get up a petition to get them a little more freedom.

    (Yes, I know they'll probably only abuse it, but it's a matter of principle and human rights.)

    Complain about this comment

  • 158. At 02:31am on 25 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    128, IceT.

    (1) You believe this and are one big jerk, or
    (2) You work for grandpa and the moose hunter.

    Complain about this comment

  • 159. At 02:36am on 25 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    120, ubermensch.

    If Obama voted liberal (your definition), I would take that over supporting creationism and other idiocies any day.

    Complain about this comment

  • 160. At 02:36am on 25 Oct 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #128.icetayoa: "Obama Explains National Anthem Stance"

    #139. john-In-Dublin: ref. 'icetayoa' "You posted a rather tedious and predictable, not to say libellous and smearish, attempt at right wing humour. Unattributed."

    Not actually libelous, but originally a satirical piece by John Semmens. All is explained by The Arizona Republic

    Complain about this comment

  • 161. At 02:40am on 25 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    134, BlueJay.

    IceT must be a troll. Nobody could be that dumb. Oops - maybe he is Joe the Plumber.

    Complain about this comment

  • 162. At 02:40am on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    There I was, composing a thoughtful reply to one of the rabid right, I turn round and they've all gone.

    I don't think it's right. (I mean proper.) They really should be allowed more time on the asylum computer. How are they ever going to interact well with sane people otherwise?

    Complain about this comment

  • 163. At 02:45am on 25 Oct 2008, ribosome wrote:

    You're really comparing one private meeting win Pinochet as a legislator with 1) Obama's willingness to meet unconditionally as President of the USA with the leaders of Iran, North Korea, Cuba, and Venezuela or 2) Obama's ten-year working, political and personal relationship with a domestic terrorist? This has to be one of the finest (or arguably saddest) examples of leftist moral equivalence I have ever seen. And that's saying something!

    Complain about this comment

  • 164. At 03:01am on 25 Oct 2008, cyrilcroydon wrote:

    Some great videos to cheer you up!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVvmrum3cUA

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03fcGelz8Hw

    Complain about this comment

  • 165. At 03:07am on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 166. At 03:12am on 25 Oct 2008, OneThought wrote:

    This is just one more example of contradiction hidden skeletons of the GOP candidate. Pinochet was considered to be a cruel and ruthless dictator. I really hope this is brought up on primetime. If the GOP candidate wants to talk about moral judgment people should know about this. As for Rush Limbaugh, is he still claiming the Clintons are going to vote for McCain? Voter privacy in the U.S. is protected by law. If he possesses a methodology to obtain knowledge as to how people vote he should be investigated by the feds. Otherwise he should shut up. How does anyone take his blabber seriously?

    Complain about this comment

  • 167. At 03:18am on 25 Oct 2008, IndependantUSA wrote:

    #128 Obama public statement released in 2006
    "I cannot imagine anything more abhorrent to a veteran than seeing the flag they fought for being burned to make a political point. I too have great pride in our flag. I share outrage at the thought of it being disrespected. And though I have never seen anyone burn a flag, if I did, it would take every ounce of restraint I had not to haul off and hit them."

    I have also attended a rally no mention of flag burning and checked facts.org where there was no mention either. Did you hear this speech yourself or is this second hand information?

    He is not my diety I am a devout Christian who believes in compassion and wants a President who has carried a student loan and been raised by a single mom not a second spoiled rich kid out of touch with reality.

    Complain about this comment

  • 168. At 03:38am on 25 Oct 2008, Via-Media wrote:

    #114 Sam

    The McCain campaign worker "assault" occurred in the Bloomfield section of Pittsburgh, not Philly. But yes, she was from Texas, and yes, parts of Pittsburgh can be a pretty tough place for a 20 year old woman to work alone.

    Complain about this comment

  • 169. At 03:39am on 25 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Nice ones, Cyril!

    Complain about this comment

  • 170. At 03:49am on 25 Oct 2008, Via-Media wrote:

    The level of vitriol that was being spewed until 3? hours ago (still trying to get the time zone difference down) has been absolutely, positively breathtaking. And although shamefully dominated by folks from the States, there were at least a few from across the water, too. Is the BBC attracting them (kinda like moths to the car headlights)?

    Seriously, the thoughtful, patient, intelligent responses by what I see as the moderate middle has been edifying and inspiring. I need it, deep in the heart of the Redlands of NW PA. I did a (strictly unscientific) tally of car stickers at work, and although I only found 4 McCain stickers in the lot (vs. 3 for Obama), their tally was flooded by the other conservative ones- the NRA, "Terrorist Hunting Permit," "Freedom Isn't Free". Probably a 30:1 ratio vs. the Dems.

    My favorite, though, was actually one of the ones I counted- perhaps incorrectly- as for McCain: in bright pink, "Palin for Vice President."

    Complain about this comment

  • 171. At 03:52am on 25 Oct 2008, Via-Media wrote:

    Lawchicago:

    A belated apology- on the healthcare post I listed fear of litigation as a possible driver of health care costs. I did not intend to malign attorneys, just the almost paranoia by many in the medical community of being seen as not having done enough.

    Complain about this comment

  • 172. At 04:05am on 25 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    Off topic, but....

    The Republican Party gambled on the antedeluvian right wing and lost. Where does that leave the Party, and how can it restructue to enter the 21st century? Is the religious right less important than we all thought?

    Complain about this comment

  • 173. At 04:06am on 25 Oct 2008, johnb3950 wrote:

    163 ribosome, there is something drastically wrong with your cellular structure. Perhaps the mitochondria need attention also? Absolute nonsense to accuse Obama of being in cahoots with a "terrorist." He sat on a non-profit board, together with several other distinguished citizens - a university president, etc - and among them was a man who very many years ago had taken a wrong turn in life, but for years now had been a pillar of the Chicago establishment and done much good for the cause of public education.

    Smear, smear, smear. Are you a Republican party operative, by any chance? Or just a misguided citizen?

    Complain about this comment

  • 174. At 04:07am on 25 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Back at ya!

    Peace and change
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 175. At 04:13am on 25 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    171, Via-Media.

    Malparactice (medical) has to be redefined using stricter guidelines. A missed diagnosis of a hard-to-diagnose-case, for instance, should not be considered malpractice, and measures should be in place to eliminate the opportunist.

    You will not get cooperation from insurance companies on this. When the awards go up, so do their premiums. They have no vested interest in fairness.

    Complain about this comment

  • 176. At 04:15am on 25 Oct 2008, DougTexan wrote:

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator] Questions are not going to be asked, answers won't be forth coming, just a new president on faith,.. faith that he will do.....

    Complain about this comment

  • 177. At 04:18am on 25 Oct 2008, frayedcat wrote:

    #114 I think reports now are that young lady not well - whole thing just an unfortunate crazy incident. It may be an indication that maybe emotions are running a little high in this election, on top of the economic tensions. Strikes me that way but don't understand it - maybe its all the crazy fear mongering tactics. And there's a lot of religion getting tossed around - that can raise some people's dander. Maybe we all just need to tip some tea into a harbor and cool off a little.

    Complain about this comment

  • 178. At 04:19am on 25 Oct 2008, DougTexan wrote:

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]a blogspot og unuseful information...

    See you all and finish reading up in the morning, been a very eventful day,..


    G..B... America

    just words,.. just speeches,..

    Complain about this comment

  • 179. At 04:27am on 25 Oct 2008, johnb3950 wrote:

    Some early posts touched on the supposed "issue" of Obama's birth certificate. The suggestion has been that it was a fake and he really spent more time in countries that were full of evil terrorists just waiting for him to illegally become President. when they could trip his hidden brain switch..

    The truth is simple. In most states, including Hawaii, when you request a copy of your birth certificate, somebody does not dig out an ancient piece of paper and take it to the Xerox. They print it out from their computer files, on government stationery, and of course using their current laser printer. All the stuff about "oh, must be fake because it wasn't on an old typewriter" is totally irrelevant. The certificate is perfectly fine.

    In fact, there are more questions about McCain's qualification as a citizen! The status of the Panama Canal zone at his birth is somewhat murky.

    Complain about this comment

  • 180. At 04:32am on 25 Oct 2008, Via-Media wrote:

    This was on one of NPR's blogs this AM. One of the more "unusual" election statements of the season...

    www.funnyordie.com/videos/cc65ed650d

    Complain about this comment

  • 181. At 04:40am on 25 Oct 2008, Cassandra wrote:

    #152

    "...it just seems foolish to me not to respond to the charges. What harm can come from that?"

    1. If the charges were real, McCain/Palin would be shouting it from the housetops.

    2. If he'd been born in any other country he'd still be a citizen since his mother was.

    3. I would think that the harm would come from continuing to repeat a phoney story without refuting it.

    But that's just me.

    Complain about this comment

  • 182. At 04:41am on 25 Oct 2008, Via-Media wrote:

    #175 allmymarbles

    Complain about this comment

  • 183. At 04:42am on 25 Oct 2008, Via-Media wrote:

    #175 allmymarbles

    Oops, a sign it's time for bed... sorry. Meant to just say couldn't agree more.

    Complain about this comment

  • 184. At 04:45am on 25 Oct 2008, Cassandra wrote:

    #177

    The poor misguided soul is reported to have emotional problems. The real story - as stated on the evening news - is that it was the McCain camp who turned the media onto the story. Ooops.

    Complain about this comment

  • 185. At 04:46am on 25 Oct 2008, Via-Media wrote:

    #172 allmymarbles

    Let's see if I can keep my itchy "enter"-finger in check for a second more, for my last referral to a thoughtful opinion column on NPR:

    www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95968435

    Regardless of who wins, might be troubled times ahead for the GOP.

    Complain about this comment

  • 186. At 04:46am on 25 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    180, Via Media.

    C'm on now. Is this any more meaningful than Joe the Plumber? Sounds just like a commercail to me.

    Complain about this comment

  • 187. At 04:58am on 25 Oct 2008, BraunSA wrote:

    Oh the Irony! Are you really judging Sarah Palin by the "content of her character"? Look at the record, not the media "buzz". Do you agree with the votes of Biden and the handful of Obama? Or do you agree with McCain and the track record of Sarah Palin? Is the Government really the answer to your problems? Where does your responsibility begin as well as your fellow neighbor?

    Complain about this comment

  • 188. At 05:35am on 25 Oct 2008, Cassandra wrote:

    187

    The track record of...? And what track record is that?

    A family connection to the AIP?

    The originally touted "record" of making a profit on the state plane on eBay? The plane that actually was sold through a broker and lost state money?

    The bridge to nowhere? Turned out that the facts were a wee bit different from the original claims, didn't it?

    The written-in-black-and-white reports that she charged to state of Alaska to stay in her own home? Or the report that her tax records didn't include that $17,000.00? It's been widely reported.

    The recent questions about records being changed to show that the kids were "invited" to events so their free airfare and hotels stays would be OK?

    Trooper-gate?

    Those records? Stay tuned for the outcome of some of the investigations....

    Complain about this comment

  • 189. At 05:54am on 25 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    187, Braun.

    I have no idea whom you are addressing and some of your comments are not clear. But you do seem to think we are judging Palin by the "content of her character." I can't answer for anyone else, but I am judging her for the "content of her brain."

    I would not be upset if someone superior to me ran the country, but I could not tolerate being controlled by someone inferior. Bush is an A-number-one bonehead and look where he has got us.

    Complain about this comment

  • 190. At 06:02am on 25 Oct 2008, sroelofs wrote:

    John McCain lost control of his campaign quite some time ago and chances are slim he can get it back because he does not "get it". He does not "get" the frustration of voters towards the status quo partisan politics of the last 20 years. He does not "get" the anger towards Big Business and Wall Street for this self-inflicted economic crisis. Perhaps most importantly, he and the Republicans do not "get" what the word "viral" means. Criticize Obama for "palling around with terrorists" and millions of citizens will dig up anything that supports a similar charge against you and spread it around the world in hours. Call for an investigation into "anti-American" members of Congress and watch $1 million of donations flood into your opponent's campaign within days. Portray yourself as Joe Six-pack and before you know it, the world knows that you got $150,000 worth of clothes from high-end retailers and your hair and makeup stylist is the highest paid member of your campaign staff. (Not a good thing when one million homes in the country are in foreclosure. I mention that because $150,000 would pay off my mortgage.) John McCain miscalculated when he thought he could make this election about character and turned loose his Republican pitbulls. That isn't what people what to hear this time. We want to hear a plausible future for America and details on how we can get there. A bunch of rah rahs for America and Joe the Plumber and insults towards Obama do not cut it. Tell us John, just how are you going to get us out of this mess?

    Complain about this comment

  • 191. At 06:14am on 25 Oct 2008, BraunSA wrote:

    188/189
    The question really is "where are you" in the "government is the answer" debate. That's what this boils down to. Do you want me to pay for your inactio, and your unachievement? Where is your responsibility in this process?

    Complain about this comment

  • 192. At 06:17am on 25 Oct 2008, BrianWSteele wrote:

    Kansas City is in Missouri,and the Star (Yael Aboualkah in particular), is the voice of the left in the deep Midwest.

    Other than that, the analysis is good. Obama's campaign has excellent counter punching skill. They have played both Clinton and McCain along, and hit them with a series of feints that have caused Obama's opponents to swing hard and miss, setting them up for the rope a dope.

    This is a prime example. This is a minor issue, but it forces the McCain people to swing hard at campaign money issues, which allows the Obama camp to continue hitting hard on Economy and health care. Which is where the election will be won or lost this year.

    Complain about this comment

  • 193. At 07:09am on 25 Oct 2008, smileytm303 wrote:

    Well--here's the thing--"unhelpful" for whom? This is a day on which it was revealed that a young woman, a McCain volunteer, cut a "B" for Barack into her own face and claimed it was an attack by an Obama supporter. She later admitted that she was lying, but not before McCain and Palin themselves had called her, and not before a fairly high up McCain staffer had spread a highly incendiary version of this story around. I will get censored by the moderator if I use the "ism" word that best characterizes this (heaven knows why--speak, Britain! It's good for you!), so I won't. Any thoughts Mr. Webb?

    Complain about this comment

  • 194. At 07:10am on 25 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    190, sroelotfs.

    I have not read one of your posts before. Yes, McCain does not understand the temper of the times. But I am grateful to him. In the process of destroying himself but he has demonstrated that he is not fit to be our president.

    Complain about this comment

  • 195. At 07:25am on 25 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    192. Brian.

    You are saying that Obama sets McCain up. But if McCain had developed a sound economic program, the strategy would not work. The problem for McCain is that he doesn't have an economic programl. He just lumps a lot of thing together that sound cartchy.

    There you have the race in a nutshell - strategy vs. boom boom.

    Complain about this comment

  • 196. At 08:10am on 25 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 195

    I agree with you Marbles - and, scrolling through the various commentary sites, it becomes more and more evident that the wilder fringes of the McCain campaign spend their time segueing from what happened 46 years ago (the birth certificate) to what will happen in 2012 (boy scouts groups forced to hire homosexual scoutmasters).

    They seem to have given up on the here and now (as you say, Marbles, no policies).

    Complain about this comment

  • 197. At 08:42am on 25 Oct 2008, plaidman wrote:

    I love to see Rush Limbaugh wriggling like a little worm on the hook - desperately struggling with the fact that the McCain camp are sinking slowly in the west and the Obama camp have the money, power and best punchlines at this late stage in the race.

    Lashing out in this mean-minded and particularly tasteless way over Obama making time to see his grandmother just shows how wrongheaded the rabid right really are.

    Complain about this comment

  • 198. At 08:42am on 25 Oct 2008, liqahussain wrote:

    As for John McCain temperament it seems it runs in the family.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/oliverburkemanblog/2008/oct/24/uselections2008-johnmccain

    A 911 call by Joe McCain brother of John McCain when stuck in traffic and then losing his temper on 911 operator

    Another JOE OF JOHN MCCAIN. No doubt why he loves Joes so much

    Complain about this comment

  • 199. At 08:45am on 25 Oct 2008, andygood12 wrote:

    On Pinochet:
    As someone who worked with Chilean refugees at the time this issue raises issues of values and honesty. Even tens of thousands of government abuses of human rights ( an underestimate....) is cause for concern..... this is not a matter of degree but honesty. McCain did not speak out/has not spoken out.

    What sort of president would he make today? Why should I trust his values? Does he have humility? This is a pretty important factor!

    I am not interested in how good an operator he is but what his values are and what compromises he is prepared to make for power.

    If McCain is as brave and upstanding a man as he claims then admission that it was at best a contradictory move to visit Pinochet at worst a mistake that has been proven with hindsight, then he is someone I might believe in.


    Complain about this comment

  • 200. At 08:58am on 25 Oct 2008, U13651376 wrote:

    I read the BBC website to gain a more balanced, foreign perspective to the US election, and what do I find?

    You're referencing "The Huffington Post"?

    This socialist website does anything BUT provide an accurate account of events. Troll through it's pages and you will see how all of it's contributors have "Drank the Obama Kool Aid".

    The BBC should be focusing on how a radical socialist with links to terrorism (Ayres), corruption (Rezko)
    and reverse racism (Farrakahn & Wright) is getting 50% of the vote.

    How is Obama going to pay for all of his promises in the middle of the recession? By taxing the hell out of anyone who works hard!

    America will soon find that Obama means CHANGE (for the worst).

    Complain about this comment

  • 201. At 09:01am on 25 Oct 2008, paul939 wrote:

    Rush limbaugh says that the stock market has dropped on fears that Obama will become President. These people never cease to amaze me.

    Complain about this comment

  • 202. At 09:02am on 25 Oct 2008, Maria Ashot wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 203. At 09:04am on 25 Oct 2008, exserviceman wrote:

    On the issue of "palling arround" here is a link to an article in the National Review online [NRO]:

    http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OTc3NzZkZDYxODZiZjE2OTg5YWRmNDkzM2U0YTIwZGQ=

    The theme is Obama and the "New Party" in Chicago. The author is clearly a center-right conservative, so judge for yourself.

    Is Obama a "socialist" or not?

    Complain about this comment

  • 204. At 09:25am on 25 Oct 2008, paul939 wrote:

    I don't understand why some people are trying to dig up dirt instead of focusing on the real issue: How to get the country out of the financial crisis. Instead, we have some people accusing the candidates of "terrorism", "Socialism", "Reverse racism" (That's a first) etc. Can't we talk about the real issues, for a change?

    Complain about this comment

  • 205. At 09:31am on 25 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 200

    I am afraid that we may have missed the boat in providing the person calling themselves Dame Margaret Thatcher with the more "balanced" perspective that he/she seeks.

    Balance doesn't seem to come into # 200's wee rant.

    Complain about this comment

  • 206. At 09:41am on 25 Oct 2008, DougHardie wrote:

    The BBC and Justin Web are in the tank for Obama. Every comment on Obama / Biden is positive and every one on McCain Palin is negative. The news mentions that Palin has provided a statement to an investigator, but does not say that Palin herself asked for this second inquiry. Then of course, the cost of her clothes.
    The BBC does not ever talk about Obama's long associations with Wright, Ayres, slum landlords and all those other dubious America hating cronies. Nor does it mention his wife's statement that 'she has never been proud of America'.
    Fair and balaced? The BBC has changed it's name from the Bush Baiting Corporation to the oBama is Beautiful Corporation. All on tax payers money.

    Complain about this comment

  • 207. At 09:43am on 25 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 203 ~ There you go again exserviceman.

    We have have discussed Mista Kurtz before on these pages and he is another of your far right friends from zombieland.

    And, exserviceman, do you really believe that the national review is the mouthpiece of the centre right ?

    If it is, we need to spend the day re-evaluating our rights and lefts

    Complain about this comment

  • 208. At 09:59am on 25 Oct 2008, U13651376 wrote:

    FYI, I'm in New York - "Reverse Racism" is the American term for "Anti White". You can youtube Obama's friends; Farrakahn, Wright, Jessey Jackson, Al Sharpton to get a taste of that.

    To the point about Obama's economic policy...there isn't anything beyond the sound bites.

    He prefers "bottom up" versus "trickle down" economics.....Basically Robin Hood for the 21st Century. (Socialism) But hasn't expounded upon how it works outside of "sticking it to the man" by "spreading the wealth".

    Complain about this comment

  • 209. At 10:07am on 25 Oct 2008, exserviceman wrote:

    204. paul939:

    "don't understand why some people are trying to dig up dirt instead of focusing on the real issue: How to get the country out of the financial crisis. Instead, we have some people accusing the candidates of "terrorism", "Socialism", "Reverse racism" (That's a first) etc. Can't we talk about the real issues, for a change?"

    How can you talk about issues when you think one of the candidates isn't telling the truth about what he would do?

    In my opinion he's hiding his true agenda. The only way to show that is show the difference between what he stood for in Chicago and Columbia and what he claims to stand for now.

    Sorry if thats negative, but if that guy gets in and dismantles the US Nuclear deterrent forces its not only the US that will suffer.

    I posted a link to a Obama video from his nomination campaign on a previous justin blog entry. On defense matters. It chilled my blood, listening to each word very carefully, I could hear something from the 1980's, a unilateral disarmer or CND type.

    I had many arguements with theses type of people while at school in the UK in the early 1980's.

    He said something mainstream on his presidential campaign, yet something coded and very different talking to internal democratic party members.

    We have pissed Putin off and leaving him with a nuclear monoply is asking for trouble. It only takes 30 minutes to kill everyone in america. After that, Russia is top dog again.

    Obama has put the media to sleep. If they don't wake up soon its going to be hell.

    Complain about this comment

  • 210. At 10:10am on 25 Oct 2008, stefkk wrote:

    What I just want clarified is, (and I haven't seen this mentioned elsewhere on the www), just how does Joe the Plumber intend to buy a plumbing business that earns (note: earnings not turnover) $250k p.a?

    A common multiple of earnings for the acquisition of a services based company is in the region of 4 - 5 times earnings. Give Joe's statement of future earnings of the business this would give a valuation range of $1m - 1.4m.

    So my question is in two parts....
    1) Is Joe actually a millionaire?
    2) Is this really representative of those hard working middle Americans that I read so much about?

    Apologies for my ignorance but I have never visited the US but just purely on a financing basis the endorsement by the GOP seems a little out of line with their "message".

    Thanks

    Stef - Australia

    Complain about this comment

  • 211. At 10:12am on 25 Oct 2008, DavidD wrote:

    206
    A number, of what I assume are Republicans, have highlighted Michelles comments as being unpatriotic, yet I wonder how many have actually considered why a member of a traditionally marginalised and, for many years persecuted, group of citizens should feel that way.
    It's a bit like complaining that the turkey doesn't vote for Thanksgiving.

    Complain about this comment

  • 212. At 10:14am on 25 Oct 2008, exserviceman wrote:

    eightypercent at 207

    I said center-right *conservative*

    I am interested about what you thought of the photo of Barack and the other successful New Party candidates?

    No comment on that?

    And as for going for people because of their internet screen names, thats really a bit pathetic.

    Its like someone I met in the army who called me a "taig" [can't spell it sorry] based on the fact I have an Irish sirname from my great gandfather.

    Complain about this comment

  • 213. At 10:22am on 25 Oct 2008, Reiner_Torheit wrote:

    These kind of smear-associations only have value if they highlight hypocrisy or double standards.

    Everyone ALREADY KNOWS that John McCain is a rightwing madman. His supporters DREAM that John-Bomb will bring Pinochet's kind of "leadership" to America, and strongly approve of his associations with such a leading light of ultra-right fascist dictatorship.

    Complain about this comment

  • 214. At 10:29am on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    204. paul939 wrote:

    "Can't we talk about the real issues, for a change?"

    No.

    (Apparently.)

    Tried that. (Post No 351.)

    No response.

    (Unless you count being accused of being responsible for '300 years of the terrorist British Empire' and inflicting the consequences of '200 years of slavery' on the USA, among other things.)

    I could try, in answer to 'Dame Margaret Thatcher' "How is McCain going to finance tax cuts while dealing with the cost of the financial crisis/in the middle of a recession?", but I don't think I'll get very far.

    The answers are a bit difficult. Taxes the brain. (Hmm. Idea. No. Scrub that. Taxing brainpower wouldn't raise much on the evidence around here, would it?)

    Witches and wardrobes are simpler. Simple minds, simple issues. New political campaigning rule.

    All we can do, I think, is smell the burning and listen to the violin playing for the next few weeks. Then maybe at the G8+ summit a few heads will get banged together and some people will begin to face reality, but I rather doubt it.

    As T S Eliot wrote, "Humankind [substitute 'Americans' ca. 2008] cannot bear very much reality."

    Right. I've had my morning coffee and I'm all girded up for the 'american hater' abuse, now. Rock 'n roll!










    Complain about this comment

  • 215. At 10:33am on 25 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 216. At 10:39am on 25 Oct 2008, paul939 wrote:

    #209 exserviceman

    It's not like every word McCain speaks is true. How do we know whether McCain is speaking the truth? Just because he talks tough doesn't mean that he would do it. He said he knew "how to get osama". Well, if he did, Why didn't he tell Bush about it? And I think you are being a bit too paranoid about Russia. We should be more concerned about those jihadist types and Pakistan.

    Complain about this comment

  • 217. At 10:39am on 25 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 212 ~ exserviceman

    I never mentioned your internet screen name, although I did mention the zombies.

    Is that how conspiracy theories get started ?

    Complain about this comment

  • 218. At 10:41am on 25 Oct 2008, Y_K_Hui wrote:

    Here is a helpful message from The First Things:

    The difference between Obama's promises and Martin Luther King's:

    When [King] delivered his “I Have a Dream” speech in Washington, on August 28, 1963, exactly forty-five years to the day before Obama’s nomination acceptance speech, he too used the language of promise. But he did so in its older, pre-Crolyan sense. He did so with the marvelously homely, everyday image of a bank check as a promissory note:

    In a sense we’ve come to our nation’s capital to cash a check. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men, yes, black men as well as white men, would be guaranteed the “unalienable Rights” of “Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

    There is no doubt that King was calling upon an imperfect nation to do better, to live up to its creed. But he was also affirming that creed, affirming the “magnificent” work of the American Founders and the founding documents, and referring back to them as justification for his march on Washington. He was couching his political acts in the terms of a specific promise that had been made in the past. He was saying, in effect, “Make good on the promise! Follow through!”

    Obama’s use of promise in his nominating speech is quite different. The word “promise” is used many more times: thirty-two by my count. And it is used in many different and shifting senses, equivocally, promiscuously, so that one is never certain at any given time what kind of promise is being referred to, and what source it derives from. King’s clean, crisp, precise, and unpretentious use of the term has been lost, in favor of slipperiness, inflationary excess, and diffuse meaning. Let me illustrate with a few passages.

    It is that promise that has always set this country apart—that through hard work and sacrifice, each of us can pursue our individual dreams but still come together as one American family, to ensure that the next generation can pursue their dreams as well. . . .

    It’s a promise that says each of us has the freedom to make of our own lives what we will, but that we also have the obligation to treat each other with dignity and respect. . . .

    It’s a promise that says the market should reward drive and innovation and generate growth, but that businesses should live up to their responsibilities to create American jobs, look out for American workers, and play by the rules of the road. . . .

    Ours is a promise that says government . . . should do is that which we cannot do for ourselves—protect us from harm and provide every child a decent education; keep our water clean and our toys safe; invest in new schools and new roads and new science and technology. . . .

    [Our government] should ensure opportunity . . . for every American who’s willing to work. That’s the promise of America—the idea that we are responsible for ourselves, but that we also rise or fall as one nation; the fundamental belief that I am my brother’s keeper; I am my sister’s keeper.

    And we will keep our promise to every young American—if you commit to serving your community or your country, we will make sure you can afford a college education. . . .

    Now is the time to finally keep the promise of affordable, accessible health care for every single American. . . [and] the promise of equal pay for an equal day’s work. . . . Individual responsibility and mutual responsibility—that’s the essence of America’s promise.

    [No one] benefits when a[n immigrant] mother is separated from her infant child or an employer undercuts American wages by hiring illegal workers. This too is part of America’s promise—the promise of a democracy where we can find the strength and grace to bridge divides and unite in common effort. . . .

    [It] is that American spirit—that American promise—that pushes us forward even when the path is uncertain; that binds us together in spite of our differences; that makes us fix our eye not on what is seen, but what is unseen, that better place around the bend.

    Clearly, for Obama the word promise has an almost incantatory power. Or at least he hopes it will for us. But what, based on these passages, can one to say about its meaning for him?

    First, one can conclude that it has no fixed meaning, and what meaning it does have shifts back and forth between older and newer acceptations of the word—between King’s sense and Croly’s, and sometimes indeterminate territory that would not seem to belong to either one.

    Second, that there is almost nothing in personal and public life that cannot be touched by this promise. It will keep our toys safe, bridge divides, and bind us together in spite of our difference. It appears to be a commitment, which quite possibly has existed from the very founding of the nation, to the idea that we are fundamentally responsible for ourselves, that we are also our brothers’ keepers, that we should have equal pay for equal work, and health care, and a college education for all. We never know who made these promises on our behalf, or when they were made, only that we are entitled to seek their fulfillment.

    This is a perfect image of how a powerful abstract word’s dangerous hypertrophy can lead to both galloping inspiration and massive confusion. And it is also worth noting that Obama consciously excises at least two possible meanings of the promise. There is no mention of the unborn and the disabled as brothers and sisters for whom we are called to serve as keepers. And there is the way the speech concludes:

    At this moment, in this election, we must pledge once more to march into the future. Let us keep that promise—that American promise—and in the words of Scripture “hold firmly, without wavering, to the hope that we confess.”

    Interestingly, even though Obama made explicit reference to these words’ source in the Bible, and even chooses to use the more believer-friendly word Scripture, he also truncated this quotation in a highly significant way. For the words of Hebrews 10:23 to which he alludes actually read like this: “Let us hold firmly, without wavering, to the hope that we confess, for the one who made the promise is faithful.”

    This is not a small omission. It removes the very basis of hope, as the original writer understood hope, by removing the assurances offered by the faithful one who is Jesus Christ. The words Obama quotes are merely the empty husks left behind when the theological content is removed. How can one speak of the promise when there is no one left doing the promising? The word promise has, by his speech’s end, become little more than a floating signifier, which is not attached to any determinate source or destination, but retains only a faint moral glow of its lofty origins.

    This is the kind of damage to clear thinking that can be wrought by the excessive and unchallenged use of abstract words. And it suggests reasons why those who have been so impressed by Obama’s well-advertised sensitivity to religion ought to think again.

    Wilfred M. McClay,
    SunTrust Chair of Humanities at the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga.

    Complain about this comment

  • 219. At 10:52am on 25 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    To the person calling themselves Dame Margaret Thatcher :

    Has it occurred to you that it is deeply ironic that you should turn up using that name when Justin Webb's subject at the top of the page is association with the late General Pinochet.

    Margaret Thatcher knew all about "palling around" with Pinochet - and there are probably supporters of hers who would prefer that her name is not used in this discussion.

    Now that the polls have proved that the Ayers issue (not to mention the existence of a previous generation of politicians like Sharpton and Jackson) induce a great bit yawn amongst American voters, I do wonder whether people who want to bang on about them to no good purpose turn to the BBC site because no one else is listening.

    Give us a break, guys ! We've heard it all from you time and time again and it's not getting you anywhere.

    Complain about this comment

  • 220. At 10:53am on 25 Oct 2008, U13651376 wrote:

    With regard to #214.

    McCain's tax cuts are intended to stimulate spending and innovation. Look at growing economies like Asia - they have 0% capital gains tax to encourage the "movers and shakers" to create jobs and develop ideas.

    Obama is just trying to BUY VOTES

    Obama is promising free and universal health care, and improved social security....In a recession....with $700 billion bale outs and $700 billion a year going to foreign oil....the man is mad!

    This election is American Idol and the winner is a Millie Vanilli!

    Complain about this comment

  • 221. At 10:54am on 25 Oct 2008, OhNeverMind wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 222. At 10:58am on 25 Oct 2008, seamurray104 wrote:

    Am I the only person to guess that the choice of Palin as VP was probably instigated by Dick Cheney so that he could retain total control of the executive powers he has put in place. The most dangerous man ever..........
    The next question might be .. will those powers ever be dismantled again?

    Complain about this comment

  • 223. At 10:58am on 25 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:


    #218 ~ K Y Hui

    Sorry mate, there may be a point hidden somewhere in all that but I couldn't find it.

    Sermons of that length simply do not translate onto a blog.

    Complain about this comment

  • 224. At 10:59am on 25 Oct 2008, OhNeverMind wrote:

    Oh, and by the way, yes Pinochet did a load of stuff which were totally unconscionable, he is responsible for restoring a healthy democracy to Chile. So don't be too hard on the old boy.

    And Reiner Torheit #213. Grow up and stop screaming absurd abuse. You degrade yourself and the discussion.

    Complain about this comment

  • 225. At 11:01am on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    exserviceman:

    "In short, the New Party was a mid-1990s effort to build a “progressive” coalition to the left of the Democratic party, uniting left-leaning baby boomers with minorities, relatively militant unionists, and “idealistic” young people."

    And: "Although Sifry leaves us hanging on the socialism question, his chapter on the New Party is more than enough to raise disturbing questions about Obama’s radicalism'. . .

    "Sifry reports a quip by New Party co-founder, Daniel Cantor: 'The shorthand strategy for accomplishing all this is to get the Bruce Springsteen, Lauryn Hill, and Pete Seeger vote united in one party.' The Peter Seeger vote does sound like shorthand for the old-time socialist Left. . ."

    [Stanley Kurtz, in the article you linked to.]

    Bruce Springsteen? Pete Seeger? 'Relatively' militant unionists? Idealistic young people? Baby boomers?

    Blimey, these are real hard-left 21st century revolutionaries. Obviously, heavily indoctrinated and dedicated to the overthrow of democracy and the American Way.

    Honestly. Old Karl up there in Highgate Cemetery must be having convulsions.

    Mind you, I'd be a bit frightened by any politician who wanted to be associated with Bruce Springsteen.

    .









    Complain about this comment

  • 226. At 11:01am on 25 Oct 2008, lewvdc wrote:

    Talking of unhelpfull messages.

    Palin stated that research into fruit flies was a waste of public money and would not benefit the wider public.

    Her persistence in making unintelligent remarks in an attempt to convince voters that she and McCain are the only candidates to serve to public, unlike her opponents, is a fine illustration that the US election history has entered a new phase.

    It is no longer important to talk about policies or even vision. It is only a matter of constantly broadcasting rubbish to the level that 50+% will accept nonsense as truth.

    A sad time for politics...

    Complain about this comment

  • 227. At 11:11am on 25 Oct 2008, icetayoa wrote:

    BREAKING NEWS!!!!!

    BBC, CNN endorse Obama.

    shortly after BBC & CNN endorsed Obama, i went out to seek the opinion of viewers and these are what they had to say.

    Joe the plumber - its about time they came out of hiding.

    Joe the hedge fund manager - what a relief, i am going to inform my cable provider to yank them off my bouquet.

    John the democrat - Great, Mcain is finished.

    John the rural farmer - BBC who?

    Susan the red neck - Who cares

    Ha ha ha ha


    Complain about this comment

  • 228. At 11:12am on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    218:

    That's a pretty fatuous and trivial bout of semiotics from a 'professor'. Glad I didn't get my degree from the Choo-Choo University.

    My university education allows me to see the subtext of "it suggests reasons why those who have been so impressed by Obama?s well-advertised sensitivity to religion ought to think again." fairly clearly, however.

    Any takers?

    Complain about this comment

  • 229. At 11:12am on 25 Oct 2008, ironAnsu wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 230. At 11:14am on 25 Oct 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    The desperation of the con artists and the declared NeoCons becomes very shrill.

    They have seized as much of the public resources as they could, their government has otherwise been a disastrous failure.

    They would like their exploitation to continue. Will the American voters agree?

    It seems not, and thus the desperation and shrillness.

    It appears that Sarkoza, Merkel and even
    Brown recognize that the World requires the alternative of non-US leadership.

    How best to achieve this should be a concern of those observing much of the input from US posters here.

    Complain about this comment

  • 231. At 11:15am on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    225: The Beeb's software seems to be indulging in its own peculiar bout of semiotics, replacing single quotes with question marks. It wasn't my typing.

    Complain about this comment

  • 232. At 11:15am on 25 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 224

    Your post is the equivalent of holocaust denial. It is the re-invention of history.

    Confirms my developing theory that this site is being invaded by aliens.

    Complain about this comment

  • 233. At 11:15am on 25 Oct 2008, exserviceman wrote:

    eightypercent at 217

    Zombietime is a strange Libertarian conservative I think, thats my guess.

    I wish he wouldn't put those religous cartoons and pictures up- free speech is important but why stick pins in peoples sensitivities like that?

    None the less, he actually does real research, taking a great deal of time to find real documentary evidence.

    The photographic evidence of Obama reviewing Ayers book tends to puncture the belief that their paths only "crossed."

    The political terms thing is actually difficult, here in the UK the terminology is different. NRO is on the right [UK] or conservative [US] wing of politics, isn't that something we could both agree on?

    But really the qustion I want you to ask yourself is, why did Obama stand for two different parties, one to the left of the democratic party?

    The New party is something Obama is not keen to talk about, now their is a photo showing him with all the other victorious New Party candidates. The text shows he was a member.

    So which Obama is real New Party Obama or Democratic party Obama?

    His campaign has tried to hide it, which is a bad sign.

    Complain about this comment

  • 234. At 11:20am on 25 Oct 2008, Parrisia wrote:

    OK McCain has been paling around with dictators even before becoming President. Obama should he win will certainly pal after he becomes

    Complain about this comment

  • 235. At 11:22am on 25 Oct 2008, icetayoa wrote:

    I will support Obama, if anyone on this board can safely tell me who it is that is being described below.

    The post was culled online

    Tell me whom am I talking about….
    Join a political party and saw this party as a vehicle to reach his political ends.
    The turning point of his mesmerizing oratorical career occurred at a political meeting when he gave an emotional delivery of a speech which captivated his audience. Through word of mouth, donations poured into the party's coffers, and subsequent mass meetings attracted hundreds eager to hear the young, forceful and hypnotic leader.

    This party began drawing thousands of new members, many of whom were victims of hyper-inflation and blamed others for this trouble. The price of an egg, for example, had inflated to many times its original price in just 10 years. Economic upheaval generally breeds political upheaval, this time was no different.

    The present government and others defied his party, accusing it of being too far left. He endorsed the fall of the present party government, and declared at a public rally that he was prepared to go the capital to rid the government of ones that disagreed with him.
    He wrote a book that was autobiographical, but which also detailed his views on the future of his people.
    Wrote a second book that was crudely written and filled with embarrassing tangents and ramblings, but it struck a responsive chord among its target and those who believed it was their destiny to change the government.


    Complain about this comment

  • 236. At 11:22am on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    226. lewvdc wrote:

    "Talking of unhelpfull messages. Palin stated that research into fruit flies was a waste of public money and would not benefit the wider public."

    I think you may be an unintending victim of the anti-Palin sneers and have misunderstood her.

    She can talk some sense after all. What a relief. Quite right. Total waste of public money. Why would fruit need flies? When did you see an apple or a pear going to the loo?

    Complain about this comment

  • 237. At 11:23am on 25 Oct 2008, paul939 wrote:

    #218

    "Obama?s well-advertised sensitivity to religion"

    Well, who do you think advertised his so called sensitivity to religion? "He's an arab", "He's a muslim", etc, statements like these, I wonder who made those statements?

    #227 icetayoa

    Add this one too to that list

    Most of the world : Thank Heavens!!!

    Complain about this comment

  • 238. At 11:26am on 25 Oct 2008, U13651376 wrote:

    To stay on topic - I have no problem with Thatchers relationship with Pinochet. He was an ally to the UK during the Falklands.

    I have no problem with Reagan sending McCain to Pinochet as part of a commission....so what?

    It's a lot different to Obama (as president) sitting down with Achmadinajad without preconditions.

    THAT'S WHAT THIS STORY IS REALLY ABOUT

    It's a left wing retaliation to Obama's gaffe in which he basically stated that he would turn into Neville Chamberlain in black-face - and add credibility to the mad man that wants to erase Israel off the face of the planet.

    And I'm hearing support for Obama from England????? Socialism has already eroded your country. Not Mine!

    Complain about this comment

  • 239. At 11:28am on 25 Oct 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    233. At 11:15am on 25 Oct 2008, exserviceman wrote:
    eightypercent at 217

    Zombietime is a strange Libertarian conservative I think, thats my guess.

    I wish he wouldn't put those religous cartoons and pictures up- free speech is important but why stick pins in peoples sensitivities like that?

    None the less, he actually does real research, taking a great deal of time to find real documentary evidence.

    The photographic evidence of Obama reviewing Ayers book tends to puncture the belief that their paths only "crossed."

    Does it? How exactly?

    "But really the qustion I want you to ask yourself is, why did Obama stand for two different parties, one to the left of the democratic party?

    The New party is something Obama is not keen to talk about, now their is a photo showing him with all the other victorious New Party candidates. The text shows he was a member."

    So, why shouldn't he? You do not seem to be making any points.

    "So which Obama is real New Party Obama or Democratic party Obama?

    His campaign has tried to hide it, which is a bad sign."

    Hardly, he is the democractic party candidate for president.

    Again what is your point, that he isn't?

    Complain about this comment

  • 240. At 11:31am on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    "Pinochet did a load of stuff which were totally unconscionable, he is responsible for restoring a healthy democracy to Chile."

    Er, as in "Hitler did a load of stuff which was totally unconscionable, but he was responsible for establishing the state of Israel"?

    All I can say is that some people's 'democracy' keeps some funny bed partners.

    Complain about this comment

  • 241. At 11:35am on 25 Oct 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    "will support Obama, if anyone on this board can safely tell me who it is that is being described below.

    The post was culled online

    Tell me whom am I talking about?.
    Join a political party and saw this party as a vehicle to reach his political ends.
    The turning point of his mesmerizing oratorical career occurred at a political meeting when he gave an emotional delivery of a speech which captivated his audience. Through word of mouth, donations poured into the party's coffers, and subsequent mass meetings attracted hundreds eager to hear the young, forceful and hypnotic leader.

    Churchill? Blair? Lloyd George? Clemenceau? Roosevelt (theodore).......

    "This party began drawing thousands of new members, many of whom were victims of hyper-inflation and blamed others for this trouble. The price of an egg, for example, had inflated to many times its original price in just 10 years. Economic upheaval generally breeds political upheaval, this time was no different."

    Astonishing insight.

    "The present government and others defied his party, accusing it of being too far left. He endorsed the fall of the present party government, and declared at a public rally that he was prepared to go the capital to rid the government of ones that disagreed with him."

    Sorry gibberish, you need to write in english

    "He wrote a book that was autobiographical, but which also detailed his views on the future of his people.
    Wrote a second book that was crudely written and filled with embarrassing tangents and ramblings, but it struck a responsive chord among its target and those who believed it was their destiny to change the government."

    Churchill? Sarkozy? dozens of other politicians


    HAve you a point to make?

    Let's make it clear. Barak Obama is running for president of the US. This is largely a political role, he is a politician as is his chief opponent.

    As this is an election both candidates try to present themselves in the best light possible. That is what happens in elections.

    It is perfectly legitimate, even for black candidates

    You seem to have a problem with this idea.

    Complain about this comment

  • 242. At 11:36am on 25 Oct 2008, Pancha Chandra wrote:

    Sarah Palin is becoming a positive embarrassment to the Republican Party and to John McCain. By choosing her as his running mate he has blown all his chances of becoming the next President. Even if had made a better choice the going would have been tough. McCain has lost the plot and is handing the Presidency on a platter to Obama. Obama is worthy of that high office. America will reap the full benefits of choosing Obama come election day on 4th November. There will be a sea-change with the world looking to America for constructive direction.

    Complain about this comment

  • 243. At 11:37am on 25 Oct 2008, paul939 wrote:

    #235

    I don't know who ayou are exactly talking about, but I can make a few points:

    "Join a political party and saw this party as a vehicle to reach his political ends"

    Well, I think 99.999999% of politicians do that.

    "the turning point of his mesmerizing oratorical career occurred at a political meeting when he gave an emotional delivery of a speech which captivated his audience"

    If that was a she, I would have said immediately "Sarah Palin"!!!

    "This party began drawing thousands of new members, many of whom were victims of hyper-inflation and blamed others for this trouble"

    The Bolshevik revolution. Close enough.


    "He wrote a book that was autobiographical, but which also detailed his views on the future of his people."

    Mein kampf, Adolf Hitler.


    Was I right?


    Complain about this comment

  • 244. At 11:38am on 25 Oct 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    "238. At 11:26am on 25 Oct 2008, DameMargaretThatcher wrote:
    To stay on topic - I have no problem with Thatchers relationship with Pinochet. He was an ally to the UK during the Falklands.

    I have no problem with Reagan sending McCain to Pinochet as part of a commission....so what?"

    So you are alright with Saddam Hussein then?

    "It's a lot different to Obama (as president) sitting down with Achmadinajad without preconditions."

    Yes the president of Ian is elected, unlike Pinochet who tortured opponents todeath.

    "It's a left wing retaliation to Obama's gaffe in which he basically stated that he would turn into Neville Chamberlain in black-face - and add credibility to the mad man that wants to erase Israel off the face of the planet."

    Ahh Obama's "black face", that's what gets you isn't it.





    Complain about this comment

  • 245. At 11:41am on 25 Oct 2008, U13651376 wrote:

    By the way.....people keep referring to Obama as African American.

    He doesn't federally qualify as a minority as an African American because he's only 6.25% negro.

    He's 50% white. And although his father is from Kenya, his father's actually descended from Arab slave traders. (43.75%)

    Some irony there to the African American community that support him! They are the same people that his ancestors shipped to America in the first place!

    Hi....larious!

    Complain about this comment

  • 246. At 11:44am on 25 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 238 ~ Thatcher

    So now you come clean - you want to bang on about your misinterpretation of Obama's commitment to making proper use of the diplomats at his disposal.

    Why didn't you tell us that was what you wanted to say in the first place ?

    It would certainly have saved Margaret Thatcher from being dragged into into an embarrassing re-hash of her relations with a torturing, kidnapping, mass murdering Dictator.

    Complain about this comment

  • 247. At 11:51am on 25 Oct 2008, TheFirstRalph wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 248. At 11:55am on 25 Oct 2008, Via-Media wrote:

    #186 allmymarbles

    Please note, I didn't say I liked it. Just... interesting, or... odd? I was too young for Andy Griffith but grew up on "Happy Days", but even so had to turn the clip off in embarrassment before it finished.

    Complain about this comment

  • 249. At 11:57am on 25 Oct 2008, paul939 wrote:

    #245

    "6.25% negro + 50% white + 43.75% Arab slave trader = 100% Human, and a good one at that"

    You seem to have a problem with this? You think it was ironic that the blacks are voting for him? You would think it would be more ironic if Hispanics voted for McCain even though he would be tough on immigration?

    Complain about this comment

  • 250. At 11:58am on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    238. DameMargaretThatcher wrote:

    "Socialism has already eroded your country. Not Mine!"

    After this, I just give up trying to get any sense into this 'discussion'.

    The continuing financial crisis, or the American practice of unrestrained capitalism, has eroded both your country and mine, and many others in the last three or four weeks. In your phrase, isn't that what this story is all about?

    But if you and others prefer to think American policies for the next four years that will affect the entire world are all to do with a simplistic definition of socialism, a total misunderstanding of it, a gut-reaction hatred of it, and no more (let alone thinking it is some peculiar form of evil appealing to Bruce Springsteen and Pete Seger, heaven help us) there really is nothing more to be said.

    There is only one phrase your namesake ever uttered (apart from "I resign") that I approve of: "I don't want to hear problems: I want to hear solutions."

    As solutions go, I don't think much of either camp's so far. But I'm not going to be so dam' simplistic as to just call them 'socialist' or 'fascist' and try to demonise them with a one-word label. Substitute 'devilish' or 'angelic' and you'll see how pointless that is.


    Complain about this comment

  • 251. At 12:04pm on 25 Oct 2008, U13651376 wrote:

    Re # 238.

    Correct!

    Webb has created a talking point that attempts to counteract Sarah Palin's comments: "Obama's palling around with terrorists"

    Except it's not even made the news here.

    Americans think Pinochet is a candy bar....

    And isn't Margaret Thatcher dead already?

    So hard luck Mr. Webb....Now go away and sharpen your hammer and sickle...

    Complain about this comment

  • 252. At 12:08pm on 25 Oct 2008, Via-Media wrote:

    So is this it, in a nutshell? The prospect of a -somewhat liberal Democratic candidate,
    -with good rhetorical skills
    -who is intelligent and articulate
    -and happens to be biracial
    -and presents a more positive vision for the future
    -and has organized a campaign that can finally stand toe to toe with the Republican juggernaut

    ...has elicited more and more of a visceral, gut-level, knee-jerk reaction from more and more whacked out Republican supporters or sympathizers as the election nears?

    Is it loss of power? What is it that we're fearing, people? Because it is fear, an instinctive fear, that seems to be driving all this. No amount of logic or reasoned response matters a whit; instead, the strident, shrill attacks increase in volume and frequency and lunacy. Surely they know they're not convincing anyone, but they don't seem to be focusing on rational debate- just in narcissistic expressions of unreasoned fear.

    Continue bringing out every 1/4-baked conspiracy theory being circulated, I'm sure there are more out there that we haven't been blessed with- and repeat ad nauseum. Actually, that's a fairly apt description, because it's starting to make me ill. This, from one in the middle (via media = middle way) who distrusts the extremes on both sides.

    Complain about this comment

  • 253. At 12:10pm on 25 Oct 2008, exserviceman wrote:

    Simon 21 at 239

    You asked why should't he stand for the New Party AND the Democratic party?

    The supreme court later ruled against the "fusion" concept.

    By asking which party is he standing for now, what I really meen is what parties *ideas* does he actually stand for.

    This is only just over 10 years ago, so its not something that can be dismissed as an early mistake - which party you belong to the biggest choice you can make in politics.

    I repeat, If Barack stood with one foot in the New Party and one in the Democratic party then, how much credibility do you give give for other changes to his policy position when he stands for president??

    How do you know he is not still someone who still has New Party ideas and just hides them??

    Complain about this comment

  • 254. At 12:12pm on 25 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 251 ~ Thatcher

    Margaret Thatcher is not dead.

    Every post serves to expose more of your ignorance.


    Complain about this comment

  • 255. At 12:17pm on 25 Oct 2008, U13651376 wrote:

    Re:#250

    The financial crisis is caused by lack of regulation.

    Don't give up on capitalism bubba...it's not like I want you Brits to co back to the feudal system, or anything!

    You can blame Bill Clinton for deregulation. Inner city pressure groups and minority community leaders (Such as Obama) wanted to make it easier for people who would not conventionally get a mortgage. It was called "Red lining". Basically Clinton made it so that any dolt could qualify for a mortgage.

    Signed for by 138 Democrats......in 1998. Thanks democrats!

    Add a moran like Bush at the wheel for 8 years and bingo!

    Have your police forces got their money out of Iceland yet? :-)

    Complain about this comment

  • 256. At 12:20pm on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    245: Maggie:

    You do like hitting the jackpot of prejudice, don't you? I'm impressed.

    I don't know how many Americans of Arab origin there are (or if any are reading this blog, but I can see they'd be well-advised to keep quiet about it) but you've managed to offend all of them, now as well. I'm delighted to see the process of racial harmony going so well in that non-socialist-eroded country of yours.

    Now, if McCain was born in Panama, doesn't that make him a 'Latino' really? Could that be a problem? Or does it depend on the colour?

    I'm reminded of a girlfriend of mine, who is an Arab, and was told once by some South Africans that she was really "black underneath". And, since I'm half-Italian, she's actually much paler-skinned than I am.

    Now, about electoral issues?

    Complain about this comment

  • 257. At 12:22pm on 25 Oct 2008, malcolmd3111 wrote:

    There have been a few comments on polling veracity, and I want to keep that issue in the forefront of people's minds. The electronic polling stations are open to hacking, and there are typically no paper trails.

    There has to be careful monitoring of all polling stations and a statistically meaningful sampling done to ensure that the results are not skewed. - If there is only a 5% difference between the candidates on Nov 4th the results can be altered to suit the Republican candidate.

    Do not believe that your vote counts because you voted! It all depends on the tranparency and accuracy of the voting systems being used.

    Complain about this comment

  • 258. At 12:24pm on 25 Oct 2008, paul939 wrote:

    #253 exserviceman

    McCain presented his presidency credentials by presenting himself as a "Maverick", i.e one who necessarily need not follow and do whatever his party wishes or approves. So then, how we we give enough credibility to him when he changes his stance in tune with the extreme right? He's no maverick if he does exactly what the party would do.

    DameMargaretThatcher

    Please stop your garbled messages about Pinochet. He was a sadistic dictator, and deserves to be placed along side Nazis as oppressors.

    Complain about this comment

  • 259. At 12:25pm on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    254. eightypercent wrote:

    # 251 ~ Thatcher
    Margaret Thatcher is not dead.

    She's not exactly, shall we say, a well woman, though.

    The only reason I'm not looking forward to her final demise is that I couldn't stand the row there's going to be about whether she should have a State Funeral or not. Could be the only funeral where people chuck rotten eggs at the hearse instead of flowers.

    (Oh, did I mention I'm not an admirer?)


    Complain about this comment

  • 260. At 12:34pm on 25 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:


    # 257 ~ Malcolm

    Time magazine has a good expose of the flaws in the voting system.

    The situation is scary and sounds more like some third world country.

    Which leads me on to BBC News which has just told me that European and Asian leaders have just completed a successful conference on new guidelines for the world economy. It sounds as if no one invited America.

    Complain about this comment

  • 261. At 12:38pm on 25 Oct 2008, oldnat wrote:

    #251 DameMargaretThatcher

    How do you sharpen a hammer?

    Complain about this comment

  • 262. At 12:40pm on 25 Oct 2008, U13651376 wrote:

    Actually, it was 4am, I was bored and I was just trying to get a reaction.

    Obama's a charming fellow - but I won't be voting for him. Race and intellect are not an issue with this guy. I just don't like his politics.

    And I know Maggie isn't really dead.

    Now you guys head off to your Sharia Law meetings with your umbrellas. I'm off to watch the World Series.

    Complain about this comment

  • 263. At 12:41pm on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    255:

    I really am giving up.

    (By the way, it was your namesake and the Conservative Party here who sowed the seeds of this disaster in Britain by wanting 90 per cent home ownership, selling council houses and flats off cheap, making it dam' nearly impossible to rent anywhere to live, abolishing 'fair rents' and thereby forcing house prices and mortgages up. Does that take the shine off a bit? Or would you prefer not to accept that?)

    So, who has the solution, and what is it? Just blind faith and hope that somehow things will turn out OK in the end?

    That's an American Daydream.

    Complain about this comment

  • 264. At 12:43pm on 25 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:


    # 259

    British - me neither

    But even I wish a little dignity for her at this stage of her life.

    I believe that the 'State funeral' rumour was not founded on facts (What on earth would they do with Sir Mark ?)

    Complain about this comment

  • 265. At 12:46pm on 25 Oct 2008, luciencubano wrote:

    i would like an answer to this question .. why is pulling out of Iraq considered "unpatriotic" ? we are losing stability in our homeland and we have hardliners beliving that we have an Ole Fashion code of conduct to live up to. Who does not see that spendin 10 billion a month plus , in foreign wars , will eventually bankrupt your country. Pull out .. leave the Iraqi's to rebuild and offer finance from afar. Take our soldiers out of harms way and focus on our saftey and economic stability. Why do we not hear this in discussions on radio , television or the Debates. The Soviet Union collapse , in part because of overspending .. it may be harsh to leave the country worse than when we came .. but in the interest of preventing our own economic ruin .. we must choose and choose wisely. Sadaam never had problems with random suicide bombs .. he was ruthless but kept his country in check .. at the expense .. we went there to bring "demoracy" to the region .. why ? how much does that cost ? obviously , to much for America .. anyone ?

    Complain about this comment

  • 266. At 12:48pm on 25 Oct 2008, paul939 wrote:

    #262

    "Now you guys head off to your Sharia Law meetings with your umbrellas. I'm off to watch the World Series."

    How much more ignorant can one get?

    Ok, You don't like Obama. That doesn't mean you hurl wild accusations at him. You still haven't mentioned the technique of sharpening a hammer.

    Complain about this comment

  • 267. At 12:50pm on 25 Oct 2008, DKAlbion wrote:

    I'm always baffled with claims that Palin has been good for the McCain ticket because she has energised the Republican base. But, hang on...these people are Republicans! So, presumably, most of them were already on board and their votes in the bag. It doesn't seem to be much of an achievement!

    As for these news stories - it's about time the US press started highlighting McCain's hypocrisy. But, as other posters have noted, it will make no difference. Americans have an extraordinary talent for only listening to what confirms their beliefs, opinions and views. Everything else goes in one ear and out the next in case it disturbs the balance.

    Complain about this comment

  • 268. At 12:51pm on 25 Oct 2008, exserviceman wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 269. At 12:58pm on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    260: eightypercent:

    "Which leads me on to BBC News which has just told me that European and Asian leaders have just completed a successful conference on new guidelines for the world economy. It sounds as if no one invited America."

    No point. They're in a state of total political paralysis. They've already said, effectively (Bernanke et al) that they can't, or won't, do anything until a good week or ten days at least after the election, and then they'll just have a talk about it.

    I believe the only way we are going to get out of this mess, a some have suggested, is to try to 'decouple' the rest of the world from the USA as far as possible, first economically, and then, perhaps politically, for the rest of the 21st century and I think that's a sign the process has started.

    I think the message is "You're on your own."

    (Can't wait to see the responses this is going to get here. No, I lie. I can wait happily for a very long time.)





    I have a sort of suspicion that

    Complain about this comment

  • 270. At 1:04pm on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    eightypercent:

    "(What on earth would they do with Sir Mark ?)"

    Oh that's easy. Given his career history, harness him to the gun carriage carrying the coffin, of course. What could possibly be a more appropriate tribute to his mum?

    That State Funeral? Only a rumour? You mean I won't get to throw the eggs I've had buried in the garden for the last ten years after all? What am I going to do with them? Will they last until Tory Blair pops his clogs do you think?

    Complain about this comment

  • 271. At 1:06pm on 25 Oct 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    Hmmm well as someone suggested last night the right wing nuts are getting more desperate but I'm not going to bite today, I'm just going back to fivethirtyeight.com and check out the blue 'pacman'. :)

    Complain about this comment

  • 272. At 1:07pm on 25 Oct 2008, CrynantJames wrote:

    Kansas City, Missouri, no less? (Apologies if it's already been said.)

    Complain about this comment

  • 273. At 1:08pm on 25 Oct 2008, paul939 wrote:

    ref #269

    The U.S might have sent some like Paulson or Greenspan to talk their way through, if they were invited. Bush is a lame duck president, calling him would be just a waste of time. Right now, the chickens have come to roost in the white house.

    Complain about this comment

  • 274. At 1:09pm on 25 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #257

    Interesting that you mentioned that the voting could be rigged to benefit the Republicans.

    Since the Democratic Secratary of State in Ohio is not challenging the ACORN ballots.

    Since the Democrats stole
    60 Presidential election with Daly in Chicago
    and a recent Washington State Gov election where Dino Rossi was robbed
    And the Florida supreme Court tried to steal the 2000 election for Gore

    Maybe the monitors should be there to make sure the Republicans get a fair shake.

    Complain about this comment

  • 275. At 1:10pm on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    "Now you guys head off to your Sharia Law meetings with your umbrellas."

    Oh, here we go again. I thought the message looked familiar. I wish people wouldn't keep recycling their ID's. Yahoo and MSN must be getting overburdened with fake email addresses.

    Complain about this comment

  • 276. At 1:12pm on 25 Oct 2008, U13651376 wrote:

    Re#269:

    Yeah, that would really suck....

    We'd have to buy those quaint pieces of Staffordshire pottery from somewhere else.

    When America sneezes - you all catch a cold.

    Complain about this comment

  • 277. At 1:15pm on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    273, paul:

    You mean 'observer status'. My. what a comedown! I didn't think to look: were the Iranians there by any chance? That would have been fun back home in the US, wouldn't it?

    (Bit more ammunition for the right wingnuts, all gratis and free of charge: I'm feeling in a generous mood today.)

    Dunno about chickens. Do lame ducks roost?

    Complain about this comment

  • 278. At 1:16pm on 25 Oct 2008, paul939 wrote:

    #274 MagiKirin

    Bush won the 2000 election in the Supreme court. Well, he didn't win it, he stole it. Don't tell me that you got that totally incorrect information about Al Gore stealing the election from Fox News.

    Complain about this comment

  • 279. At 1:19pm on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    276. DameMargaretThatcher wrote:
    Re#269:

    "When America sneezes - you all catch a cold."

    Yes, but this time the rest of the world has been busy developing ant-flu vaccines, but you obviously haven't noticed.

    For positively the last time, from me at least: can't you please address some issues instead of throwing old cliches around?

    Complain about this comment

  • 280. At 1:19pm on 25 Oct 2008, Parrisia wrote:

    Now that I come to think of it more carefully, McCain's experience with dictators makes him even fitter to become President. Just imagine how many times poor old President Bush has had to meet, eat and drink with Pakistani dictator Musharaff, all for the shake of the War on Terror, keeping America safe etc

    Complain about this comment

  • 281. At 1:20pm on 25 Oct 2008, exserviceman wrote:

    luciencubano at 265

    Why is it unpatriotic to pull out of Iraq immediately? [hope that close to what you meen there]

    1/ Because the surge worked, Al Quaida has been virtually annihilated in Al Anbar/ Baghdad/ and Dyiala province. The Mardi army [Iranian controlled] was completely routed by the Iraqi army. Victory is 90% there, we just need to be patient a little longer.

    The surge brigades are slowly coming home, all that is needed is to leave decisions about troop levels to General Petraeus and all will be well.

    The Iraqi army grows stronger each month, sunlit uplands await the next generation of Iraqi children. Freedom!

    As Petraeus draws down his forces in a slow and controlled way, that 10,000 billion a month figure will fall in proportion untill it is nothing more than a bad dream.

    2/Premature pull out could allow the factions in Iraq to get into conflict again.

    The prestige of US forces is very high, 10 time what it was before the surge. Iraqi's do respect bravery and just actions.

    I cannot describe in words how brave US Marines and Army soldiers were in 2007. They were magnificent.

    We have to ensure that the sunni "awakening" forces are integrated into the Iraqi army and police and treated fairly.

    3/ 3000 Americans have been killed and 30,000 wounded. We must achieve freedom and democratic rights for all Iraq's people, there is no other memorial that could possibly match that. John wear a band on his wrist with the name of one of the dead soldiers names on it to remind him constantly of their sacrifice.

    4/ Self interest frankly, Iraq is recovering well, contracts for new power stations and drilling new oil wells/maintenance are well in hand.

    Over the next 2-3 years oil exports will increase, providing stability in oil prices and severely annoying Hugo Chavez.

    Obama seems more interested in seing himself proved right then in a US victory. Strange, strange viewpoint.

    Complain about this comment

  • 282. At 1:28pm on 25 Oct 2008, paul939 wrote:

    #281

    "The Mardi army [Iranian controlled] was completely routed by the Iraqi army"

    If you mean the Mehdi army that is under the control of the shia cleric, Moqtada al-sadr , then you are much mistaken. He is still strong, and his army numbers around atleast 50,000. And what was that about the Iraqi army? the defeated who?

    "The prestige of US forces is very high, 10 time what it was before the surge. Iraqi's do respect bravery and just actions."

    Actually, if you've been to eastern and the middle east, not to mention parts of Europe, the prestige is at its lowest point ever. Abu gharaib, Guantanamo bay, and kicking open Iraqi people's doors and demanding that they identify themselves won't make the Iraqis happy. Iraqis may respect bravery, But they don't appreciate being told in their country about what is to be done by someone else.

    "Self interest frankly, Iraq is recovering well, contracts for new power stations and drilling new oil wells/maintenance are well in hand"

    Ahh, now we come to the real point, namely the main reason why the U.S went to Iraq. Though I tink the shia factions will be nigh opposed to that one...

    Complain about this comment

  • 283. At 1:35pm on 25 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    DK Albion,

    "Americans have an extraordinary talent for only listening to what confirms their beliefs, opinions and views. Everything else goes in one ear and out the next in case it disturbs the balance."
    This talent has also been observed in the British, and, no doubt, exists in many other folk. I don't think it's all that extra-ordinary.

    Peace and grits
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 284. At 1:39pm on 25 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    "Right now, the chickens have come to roost in the white house."
    Will the accumulated chicken doo doo be properly composted by the new occupants?


    Complain about this comment

  • 285. At 1:42pm on 25 Oct 2008, potatoman65 wrote:

    eightypercent @219: "Give us a break, guys ! We've heard it all from you time and time again and it's not getting you anywhere."

    Hi Mr 80! You're using this language of "us and them" quite a lot. I happen to agree with a lot of what you say, but not everything. I also agree with some things that are said by those who are not Obama supporters.

    If you could make your argument and not assume there is an "us" that is behind every word it would, in my opinion, carry more weight rather than less.

    Pedantic maybe, but if you're thinking it then better out than in I say ;-)

    Complain about this comment

  • 286. At 1:52pm on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    281, exserviceman:

    What a very pretty picture that is. About as realistic as those Christmas cards that show Bethlehem covered in snow. Or those paintings of Jesus with long blond hair.

    It doesn't correspond at all to what I hear from my Iraqi friends here who have family members still in Iraq. It is not 'Al Quaeda' that's the problem. That in any case, is an ideology now, not a group.

    And why should any increase in oil exports from Iraq upset Hugo Chavez? He's just signed a big contract with China.

    Perhaps you haven't heard of the prestige of those US soldiers at Abu Ghraeb, Felujah and elsewhere?

    But it's the 'picture' that sells the story, isn't it? Like the American Marines wading ashore from landing craft on the seashore of Kossovo I saw on the American news channels once. Knowing that Kossovo was landlocked, and didn't have a seashore, I was a little puzzled by that.

    A friend of mine who was in a position to know told me that a) that took place in Greece at Thessalonika; b) the Greek government refused to allow them to go beyond the beach in military vehicles, so when the cameras were turned off they had to put their weaponry away and get into civilian buses to be driven out of Greece.

    And I thought the broad sunlit uplands of freedom were supposed to be within the reach of this generation of Iraqi children, not the next.

    Do you think many actually care now? I was talking to a friend last week who went through a civil war. She said the one thing people who have not gone through it do not understand is that the 'future', even 'tomorrrow', means nothing. Represents nothing. You live quite literally from day to day. If you survive one whole day, you've achieved all you can.

    That, in human terms, is what the US (and my own country) has achieved in Iraq. Call it a victory if you like. I doubt if any Iraqis will give a damn what you call it when the US army has gone. Or retreated to missile-defended and costly bases in Iraq, of course, let's have no illusions that your forces won't be staying.

    Complain about this comment

  • 287. At 1:52pm on 25 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #278

    No Bush won in 2000 by recieving more votes.

    not only Fox News the most repuatable cable news source in the U.S but the Miami Herald and even NYT said so

    Complain about this comment

  • 288. At 1:55pm on 25 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Obama Gains Record Level of Support with White Folks

    "The most recent two weeks of Gallup polling, which includes roughly 13,000 interviews, show 44 percent of non-Hispanic white voters presently support Obama — the highest number for a Democrat since 47 percent of whites backed Jimmy Carter in 1976.

    Until the stock market swoon in mid-September, Obama had never reached 40 percent among white voters.

    No Democrat has won a majority of white voters since Lyndon Johnson in 1964. John McCain has shuffled between 48 percent and 50 percent support in recent weeks — which would be the lowest share for a Republican candidate in a two-man race since Barry Goldwater's run."


    Peace and Siblinghood
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 289. At 1:57pm on 25 Oct 2008, exserviceman wrote:

    paul939

    yes my spelling is bad, the faster I try to write the worse it gets, sorry.

    I meant prestige of US forces *inside Iraq*

    Moqtada al-sadr is joke who has run away to Iran. His remaining forces are hiding, and the Iraqi army controls Sadr City. He let factions of the Mehdi army conduct savage sectarian murders.

    The murders have stopped now, because the Iraqi Army smashed the Mehdi army.

    How can such a wise and great man have such a foolish man as a son?

    In Europe, all they do is watch the lazy drivel put out by certain media organisations.

    All your other points are relevant to the Rumsfeldt period. He was a criminal incompetant removed in late 2006. I can't tell you how much I detest him.

    The detestable actions at Abu gharaib were mainly down to the stupid evil interference of Cheney. I wish someone would waterboard him, see how he likes it.

    No one is more opposed to torture than John Mccain. No one. Its evil and its just stupid.

    Ever since Defence secretary Gates approved the surge strategy, things have got better in Iraq.

    Your last point is wrong. The Shia people will be the greatest winners in the new Iraq, if they can just treat the minority Sunni community with justice and respect ALL will prosper.

    Complain about this comment

  • 290. At 2:00pm on 25 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    Magic - careful

    In 2000 Bush got 50,456,002 votes

    Gore got 50,999,897 i.e. over half a million more.

    That is why Florida with its pregnant chads etc. became so notorious

    Complain about this comment

  • 291. At 2:04pm on 25 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    By the way,...

    "NOTHING PERSONAL, UNDERSTAND. It's just that we always get a tad queasy when we see buckets of blood or hear those heart-rending sobs -- not only from widows and orphans but also from the very knaves who snookered them and were dumb enough to put their own money where their mouth was. So, if you don't mind stopping the world for just a sec, we'd like to get off.

    We woke up Friday morning thinking it would be just another Friday. You know, one of those nice, bland uneventful days you can spend tapping on the computer and sneaking looks at the lush fall foliage. The market might wind up or down the usual 200 points. Nothing special. A few more money managers would be spotted stealing out of town, posses of raging investors in hot pursuit. Another hopelessly overmargined broker or two might bounce off the pavement, happily missing civilians passing by (who, being New Yorkers, never noticed)."
    If the link doesn't work, let me know, and I'll archive the article, which is well worth a read for your weekly dose of acerbic New York wit....

    Peace and Equity
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 292. At 2:08pm on 25 Oct 2008, Dan wrote:

    Mc Cain meets with dictators and convicted mortgage fraud brokers. He also has close ties with anti-Catholic preachers, owns 7 houses, and was born in Panama (in the Canal Zone). Explain to me how this man is mainstream America?

    Complain about this comment

  • 293. At 2:11pm on 25 Oct 2008, paul939 wrote:

    #287

    Well, I hate to say this, but your information is wrong. Al gore won the popular vote in the 2000 election. Al gore received 543,816 more popular votes than the winner, i.e Bush. Bush won the November 7 election, with 271 electoral votes to Gore's 266, which is why it went to the supreme court over the 25 votes that Bush got from florida. Al gore wanted a recount in Florida, but the supreme court refused.

    Complain about this comment

  • 294. At 2:15pm on 25 Oct 2008, exserviceman wrote:

    british-ish at 286
    You viewpoint is understandable, but it is pre-surge. Things have improved from a security perspective, as soon as the new power stations go online the standard of living will increase. Electricity is everything, now that is being rebuilt.

    When was the last time you spoke to your Iraqi friends? Which part of the country do they come from? The capital has been through a roller coaster ride of despair then slowly returning hope.

    Al Quaida funneled money and sunni arab volunteers into Iraq from Syria, mainly to as ghastly cannon fodder for use in suicide bombings against Shia civilians and US/Iraqi forces. This is being interdicted now, at many levels.

    Al Quaida used foreigners [using drugged out of their minds] then women as suicide bombers, then 2 mental patients to blow up a pet market where many children were playing and looking at the animals. What concentrated evil they are.

    Al Quaida poured money into Iraq, but the surge has virtually snuffed out their wicked ideas for good. No thanks to Obama, thats for sure.

    Complain about this comment

  • 295. At 2:15pm on 25 Oct 2008, paul939 wrote:

    #289

    Hey, I know a lot of muslims, I have muslim friends. One thing I know about them is that Shias absolutely hate sunnis. Saddam Hussein kept the majority shias quiet and ruthlessly hounded them. Now the shias want a major stake in the political affairs of Iraq, which the minority sunnis refuse because traditionally they have enjoyed power in the Government. In my opinion, there's not much of a chance that Shias will treat sunnis with justice. Even if they do, Sunnis won't like to be losing their traditional influence. It's a no-win situation.

    Complain about this comment

  • 296. At 2:17pm on 25 Oct 2008, Robert Bennett wrote:

    It is harder and harder to post anything of substance and with feeling to it, in "comments". The system here lets anyone who does not want your ideas printed to "complain" and have your views removed. This is not FREE SPEECH, it is "censorship" of the worsted kind, since you never know who or why they are doing it. Lately it has been especially difficult in certain areas like ones concerning "racism". It seems one side gets away with it, and other ideas that even mention the issue are called "racist" to prevent any useful dialogue. The results from the great anger that is being built up using this onesided cersorship, will soon spill over into the streets, probably in America first. No one will be able to contain this---it will be TOO LATE. I believe the best way to avoid serious trouble is to let people openly speak their minds in print, before it goes to real violence.

    Complain about this comment

  • 297. At 2:34pm on 25 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:


    # 296 ~ rwbennett

    In fairness to them, the BBC operates "House Rules" on an unbiased basis.

    True, you can complain about a post that you find offensive and they will have a look at it. But they only remove it if it breaks the rules.

    The BBC, as host of this site, has a responsibility to its licence payers not to display anything that breaks race or libel laws. We* have discovered over time that there are a few rude words that don't get you past the censor either.

    * Sorry, to the bod who doesn't like me using the word "we" I should replace that with "some people"

    Complain about this comment

  • 298. At 2:37pm on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    exserviceman: "In Europe, all they do is watch the lazy drivel put out by certain media organisations."

    You mean, I take it, that we watch TV news and documentaries (many filmed by Iraqis) listen to radio reports and read news stories in newspapers and magazines that do not share your view?

    There's no point blaming just Cheney and Rumsfeld; whether McCain was/is against torture is irrelevant. He couldn't stop the Executive Order that allowed it, could he?

    Nor can you take back Rumsfeld's declaration that the Geneva Conventions were out of date. Or the very public redefinitions of 'torture' by all and sundry that said it is only maltreatment that results in death that can be classified as such. That is not torture; that's murder. Even the Spanish Inquisition (which, by the way, invented 'waterboarding') didn't go that far.

    Like it or not, the ruling government is wholly responsible, and by extension the citizens of the state that elected it and allowed it. I can chant 'not in my name' at a demonstration that a million people here in London joined in against the Iraq invasion, but I have to accept my share of complicity too.

    Even though, as a result of public unease, distaste and pressure, our Attorney General has publicly condemned the illegality of both torture and Guantanamo.

    I the end, the likely consequence of all this is that eventually Iraq will become a province of, or at least closely allied with, Iran. Not a palatable prospect for discussion in certain quarters, I should imagine.

    Complain about this comment

  • 299. At 2:42pm on 25 Oct 2008, liqahussain wrote:

    Paul

    I dont think you know muslims very well. You would be surpised to know that in Pakistan and in Iraq there are many many famalies where either parent is Shia or Sunni.

    Actually its the western or British style that whereever they go they divide the people in categories and pit one group with the other be it Northern Irelland, India and Pakistan and now Iraq.

    In Africa they pitted one tribe against the others.

    Before British came to India , Hindus and Muslims lived peacefully side by side and there was never a war on religion as such and respected each other faith but when British came they pitted Hindus against Muslims and then carved up India and Pakistan and left problem of Kashmir for these two countries to fight forever.

    So your assertion that Shias hate absolutely Sunnis is absolutely wrong - my own father is a Sunni and mother is a Shia and I have never seen such thing as such.

    In Northern Ireland you guys pitted Catholics against Protestants and in Palestine you guys pitted Muslims against Jews although if you look back in the history before Isreal was created there was never a war between Muslims and Jews and in fact Muslims of Turkey helped Jews in Spain when they were being discriminated against. Plus things like Holocaust was NEVER EVER CONDUCTED BY MUSLIMS AGAINST THE JEWS.

    Complain about this comment

  • 300. At 2:42pm on 25 Oct 2008, exserviceman wrote:

    Paul939 at 295

    Your point about the Shia/Sunni split is valid, as is your decription of the misstreatment of the Shia population under Saddam Hussein.

    This is why we can't pull the plug on US forces. David Petraeus knows all the difficulties better than anyone alive, now that he is CENTCOM commander all that needs to be done is to trust him on the drawdown of US troops.

    If Obama trys to pull the plug and abandon Iraq, there will be tremendous temptation on the part of Iran to start interfering in Iraq, funding death squad militias and provoking the sunnis.

    The Sunni countries would then help the sunni population, then its a two or three way civil war with Al Quaida worming their way back into Iraq.

    A stalemate will ensue, leaving a failed state, a stronger Iran, and Al Quaida bases in the Sunni pockets that survive. Then what do we do?

    Obama dosn't make any sense at all. If we abandon one front, it will collapse, endangering the forces on the other front.

    Complain about this comment

  • 301. At 2:43pm on 25 Oct 2008, liqahussain wrote:

    Latest addition to McCains Joes

    - Joe the Hothead - his brother Joe McCain who sweared at the 911 operator and caught and has now decided to come off the campaign

    Complain about this comment

  • 302. At 2:46pm on 25 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    "Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no impact on society" - Mark Twain

    Let's look at two comments :

    "Bush and his buddies have turned the USA into a third world country!" #52

    "That guy is an idiot !" readers of #52

    One expects the latter, given the absurdity of the former. But neither statement is true. Both are equally ridiculous, and utterly absurd.

    No reasonable person would say America is a third world country. But oddly enough, the speaker is probably not an idiot.

    S/he is probably somewhat intelligent, and likely fairly well educated.

    To paraphrase Twain, idiots have little or no impact on society - either positive or negative. They don't have the intelligence to cause much trouble.

    The worst problems in human history were caused by intelligent people - Karl Marx is the classic example. He had a PhD in Philosophy, yet more people have died in his name than anyone else who ever lived.

    No, no reasonable person would say America is a third world country.

    But we're not dealing with reasonable people.

    We're dealing with "intellectual dissidents".

    Complain about this comment

  • 303. At 2:47pm on 25 Oct 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    For the sake of Britishish and others how abou we discuss the economic policies of the two candidates, by which iI mean what they have actually said they will do not what people imagine they might do wonce they get into office. My understanding is that McCain is proposing tax cuts for the middle classes while Obama is proposing to increase taxes for the wealthy, and again going on what they've said, not what they might do.

    Now as I see it the potential pluses of the McCain plan are:

    Makes people more confident, which may improve the economy in and of itself.

    Stimulates the retail sector.

    may put more money into investments and stabilize the banking sector.

    The potential minuses:

    Cutting tax revenue when you're in the middle of a war and a financial crisis is a gamble, suppose there's another Katrina type crisis?

    If the money goes into foreign consumer goods and investments it may make matters worse.

    What do you cut? Is there really that much fat in the budget?

    Obama potential pluses:

    Gives the goverment more room for manuever, better able to respond in an uncertain time.

    Allows an improved safety net for those in the lower incomes sections of society, especially the 'working poor'.

    Reduces dependence on foreign borrowing, improves balance of trade.

    Potential minuses:

    If the rises reach to far into tax base may damage the middle class and reduce economic activity.

    What do you spend it on? Pick the wrong items and the money is wasted, and you lose a singular opportunity.

    No one likes a tax rise, will Dems who have to stand for election in 2010 really back it? If not obama's wholeplan goes out of the window.

    So that's my view, anyone want to discuss it? Or shall we just go around in circles about ACORN, birth certificates, and socialism for the rest of eternity, well till Nov. 4th anyway.

    Complain about this comment

  • 304. At 2:47pm on 25 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:


    # 299 Liquahussain

    Food for thought indeed. Thank you for an interesting post.

    Complain about this comment

  • 305. At 2:55pm on 25 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    #286 "But it's the 'picture' that sells the story, isn't it? Like the American Marines wading ashore from landing craft on the seashore of Kossovo I saw on the American news channels once. Knowing that Kossovo was landlocked, and didn't have a seashore, I was a little puzzled by that."

    Am I the only disgusted by your cynicism ?

    Here's some questions for the world :

    Which continent has hosted the most genocide ?

    Which continent has exported the most genocide ?

    Which continent has committed the world's most recent genocide ?

    The answer to all three is the same :

    EUROPE.

    Shocking, isn't it... the US sends troops to Europe to end a genocide - AGAIN - and this is the best you can say.

    If you want propaganda, you need not come all the way to America.

    Just go back and read BRITISH news after your sailors were captured by the Iranians !

    All of a sudden, being a HAWK was a good idea.

    Complain about this comment

  • 306. At 3:01pm on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    296/297

    I think the initial 'moderation' is actually done by word recognition software, which is, to say the least, a bit clumsy. It's very prone to reject 'foreign' words, as a reply from the Beeb told me after I complained. The 'foreign word' in question -- I daren't actually use it for fear this post will get blocked as a result as well! -- was, I eventually worked out, actually a musical term in Italian, which was a bit ridiculous in a post on a Prom concert to say the least.

    And I had a terrible job getting the word 'crutch' -- meaning a walking aid! -- past it at one stage, leading to yet another exasperated complaint from me.

    It needs a good deal of refinement, obviously, still. However, as many of us have pointed out, many times, this site is subject to British law, and any form of incitement to racial hatred is illegal here; and the law of libel here is such that libellous allegations repeated without supporting and authenticated evidence also cannot be published here.

    The 'complain about this post' is a back-up system intended, I imagine, to allow informed and thoughtful readers to alert the webmasters to any infraction of British law or tasteless abuse. (Though a, to me, astonishingly large amount of that gets through.) Of course, it is abused, and though some posts get re-instated after what has obviously been a frivolous or ill-founded complaint, I suspect rather too many do not.

    As to "The results from the great anger that is being built up using this onesided cersorship, will soon spill over into the streets, probably in America first": you can't seriously believe we will see a headline 'BBC Blog causes Race Riots in LA" do you?

    Forewarned is forearmed. I've kept a copy of this just in case my 'walking implement' word gets it blocked again :-)

    Complain about this comment

  • 307. At 3:04pm on 25 Oct 2008, RomeStu wrote:

    #245 DameMargaretThatcher wrote:
    By the way.....people keep referring to Obama as African American.
    He doesn't federally qualify as a minority as an African American because he's only 6.25% negro.
    Although his father is from Kenya, his father's actually descended from Arab slave traders. (43.75%)
    Some irony there to the African American community that support him! They are the same people that his ancestors shipped to America in the first place!


    Oh Maggie, I believe you have just categorically disproved the disgraceful allegation that Colin Powell only endorsed Obama because he is a "brother".
    Thanks.

    Otherwise you point is what exactly? .... the sins of the slave trade are not really an issue at this point, and it seems you are the first to dig over that foetid swamp for a while.

    Peace and multiracial harmony.

    PS 1) can anyone actually confirm or deny this Arab heritage claim - first time I've heard it.

    PS 2) If ..... and at this stage for me it's a pretty big "if" .... Obama has Arab heritage it fills me with confidence that he may find a way out of this international madness without more war.

    Complain about this comment

  • 308. At 3:04pm on 25 Oct 2008, paul939 wrote:

    #299

    Thanks for letting me know about that. Things may not be so bad after all...

    Complain about this comment

  • 309. At 3:08pm on 25 Oct 2008, SaintDominick wrote:

    Ref 255

    "Basically Clinton made it so that any dolt could qualify for a mortgage."

    The overwhelming majority of middle class mortgages are being paid and do not constitute a problem. The highest percentage of defaults involve mortgages held by speculators, real estate and construction companies holding large real estate inventories that are not selling, and people who bought expensive properties they could not afford.

    The mortgage/credit problem was aggravated by excessive construction (both residential and industrial), which consistent with the law of supply and demand resulted in prices dropping to levels that are often below the value of the mortgates. It will be years before demand absorbs the large inventories of empty houses and offices that are available in the market today.

    Blaming the focus of the Clinton Administration to make housing accessible to the lower middle class is misleading and an excuse used by those who advocate a feudal system of landlords and the pre-eminence of an elite in a country founded on the basis of opportunity and equal right for all its citizens.

    You may want to look into the borrow and spend policies of the past 8 years that have consistently produced unsustainable federal government budget deficits, out of control corporate and personal debt, doubling of the national debt, $200B a year in interest payments on the debt, and $10B a month on an unprovoked and unnecessary war, and a weak dollar for more likely reasons to explain the fiscal and economic malaise that is destroying our country.

    Complain about this comment

  • 310. At 3:08pm on 25 Oct 2008, OneThought wrote:

    Government can and should serve a beneficial purpose. Government is not intrinsically bad nor good. The question is how best can a government serve its citizens? That is what campaigns are generally about. The big question now is, do we want to keep the tax burden on middle class or shift it more toward the wealthy? We have learned the hard way that trickle-down economics does not work because of a little human factor called greed and even Greenspan finally had to admit, deregulation was a bad idea for the same reason. Unfortunately he discovered the error of his policies a bit late. McCain still favors the wealthy and trickle down. America parted from British rule because of class disparity back in the day. We seem to have created it for ourselves again. I think Obama understands this. I don't think McCain does.

    Complain about this comment

  • 311. At 3:11pm on 25 Oct 2008, OneThought wrote:

    Oh, and I love the British btw. I have to say you Brits have the greatest sense of humor. I'm not being sarcastic.

    Complain about this comment

  • 312. At 3:16pm on 25 Oct 2008, exserviceman wrote:

    british-ish 298

    The media coverage of Iraq has been pathetic. As you say it is typically a Jornalist sitting in Baghdad in an air conditioned hotel providing a voice over to a film from an Iraqi camerman who has taken all the risks.

    The only people who can be trusted are Mark Urban and John Simpson. They do very careful research and have excellent judgement.

    I'll never forget John Simpson's searing report during the initial US advance in 2003 after a US fighter bomber attacked his convoy. He was still objective after seeing terrible suffering. Great man, what guts and integrity.

    The rest has been dumbed down sludge, oh look theres a bomb... and no explanation as what is going on.

    For example, the Iranian's basically made life hell in Basra until the Iraqi army kicked their puppets, the Mehdi army, out. Now did any mainstream journalist put the blame where it belonged?

    Nope just knee jerk pacifist guardian reader stuff about how things weren't working.

    Mark Urban gave important clues, and I salute him for that.

    As for newspapers, I don't think any UK journalist has covered it in any detail or understanding. The FT tries, but the pierson group has this kind of UN view of everything.

    Not only can I blame Cheney and Rumsfeldt, I think Cheney should be investigated for corruption in dealing with private sector contracters like Custer Battles. Corruption in time of war and in a war zone is Treason.

    Both Cheney and Rumsfeldt and that pathetic little attorney general, whats his name? the one from Texas. Treason and corruption charges for the lot of them.

    As for Bush II, he just too dumb and out of the loop to bother with. He should be made go to section 60 of Arlington national cemetry and vist all the wounded then consider doing the decent thing. Leave a revolver on the table for him.

    As for the guilt thing, well I see your point, but the only thing we can do is prosecute the guilty men and win the war. John spoke out against torture, the early conduct of the war, and he says he will close the prison on cuba down. Thats all we can do.

    Complain about this comment

  • 313. At 3:16pm on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    305 ricky78732 wrote:

    "Am I the only [one] disgusted by your cynicism?"

    I don't know*. Let's put it to the vote.

    Along with "Am I the only one bored silly by your constant blaming of Europe for every ill that has afflicted the world since the Black Death?"

    *Actually, I don't care, either. Why should I not be cynical about a replay of Sergeant Ryan purely for propaganda purposes?

    Complain about this comment

  • 314. At 3:20pm on 25 Oct 2008, RomeStu wrote:

    #295 paul939 wrote:
    Saddam Hussein kept the majority shias quiet and ruthlessly hounded them. Now the shias want a major stake in the political affairs of Iraq, which the minority sunnis refuse because traditionally they have enjoyed power in the Government.


    Gosh, doesn't that sound a bit similar to the situation in northern Ireland between catholic and protestant Christians? And how was that situation finally resolved? Did the British army "surge" in and knock down a few more catholic doors to help them out?

    No after decades of pointless bombs and murders and terror, everyone sat down and talked in through and now we have peace, and the BRitish forces have withdrawn.

    Yes, and for the record the US government also welcomed Gerry Adams of the IRA well before he was considered "reformed".
    And also the NorAid charity in the USA heavily funded the IRA for much of the 70s, 80s and 90s .... will taxes free status. Beautiful.

    This is not to start a new string on Ireland (please - it's over now), but is meant to demonstrate that if you don't sit down and talk with your enemy all that happens is that more and more people die.

    Peace and communication

    Complain about this comment

  • 315. At 3:20pm on 25 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:


    Shock! Horror!

    " The Justice Department soon began to file criminal and civil charges of various sorts
    against nearly every high Bush administration official who had any involvement with the Iraq
    war.37 During his campaign, Senator Obama said, “What I would want to do is to have my
    Justice Department and my Attorney General immediately review the information that's already
    there and to find out are there inquiries that need to be pursued.”38 In order to facilitate these
    proceedings, President Obama rescinded President Bush’s executive order that had prevented
    presidential papers from being released, and millions of pages of previously secret White House
    papers were posted on the Internet. ACLU attorneys have spent four years poring over these
    papers looking for possible violations of any law. Dozens of Bush officials, from the Cabinet
    level on down, are now in jail, and most of those are also bankrupt from legal costs."
    Would that it were true! The most positive prediction from a "letter from 2012", published by the "Christian Right" to dissuade young Christians from being seduced by Obama....

    Let me know if the link doesn't work, and I'll post an archived copy.

    Peace and American Purity
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 316. At 3:21pm on 25 Oct 2008, BillTyrone wrote:

    294. exserviceman

    1. Last paragraph......... come again????????

    2. Are you an ex serviceman or just using the name ?

    3. Been on the ground in IQ? RU ex US forces or European or other military force?

    Bill

    Complain about this comment

  • 317. At 3:26pm on 25 Oct 2008, RomeStu wrote:

    #299 liquahussein

    You make some excellent points about Sunnis and Shias .....

    Just as protestants and catholics do not hate each other, their differences have been used to incite hatred for political ends. Obviously there are many "mixed marriages" in Northern Ireland also.

    I have said in several other posts - it's never about religion, only about politics and power.

    Complain about this comment

  • 318. At 3:34pm on 25 Oct 2008, RomeStu wrote:

    I may be losing my atheism .... a momentous event has occurred in Virginia (appropriately)

    Please cut and paste the following link to your browsers

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/10/081010-shark-virgin-birth-2.html


    Once you've read it you will all become "sharkians" with me and the world will be forced to peace by very sharp teeth.

    Peace and dentistry

    Complain about this comment

  • 319. At 3:35pm on 25 Oct 2008, U13651376 wrote:

    The info regarding Obama's lineage is here:

    http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/02/obama-arab-amer.html

    Complain about this comment

  • 320. At 3:35pm on 25 Oct 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    300. At 2:42pm on 25 Oct 2008, exserviceman wrote:
    Paul939 at 295

    Your point about the Shia/Sunni split is valid, as is your decription of the misstreatment of the Shia population under Saddam Hussein.

    This is why we can't pull the plug on US forces. David Petraeus knows all the difficulties better than anyone alive, now that he is CENTCOM commander all that needs to be done is to trust him on the drawdown of US troops.

    If Obama trys to pull the plug and abandon Iraq, there will be tremendous temptation on the part of Iran to start interfering in Iraq, funding death squad militias and provoking the sunnis.

    The Sunni countries would then help the sunni population, then its a two or three way civil war with Al Quaida worming their way back into Iraq.

    A stalemate will ensue, leaving a failed state, a stronger Iran, and Al Quaida bases in the Sunni pockets that survive. Then what do we do?

    Obama dosn't make any sense at all. If we abandon one front, it will collapse, endangering the forces on the other front."

    Just a couple of points

    1) Iraq has been abandoned. Petreaus armed sunni gangs in the hope they would kill other Iraqis teh US did not like.

    Whent hemoney runs out these gangs willplunge the country into even more chaos, as we saw with Afghanistan.

    2) Obab realises that this is a war the US cannot win and is therefore doing the only sensible thing.

    This is not a conflict that can be won by bombing and arming gangs, it requires intelligence and some level of understanding, none of which have been forthcoming so far.

    Al Quaeda has taken on the biggest and best armed army in the world and has fought it to a stansdstill.

    An astonishing achievementonly made possible by woeful leadership ont eh part of the US elite

    Complain about this comment

  • 321. At 3:35pm on 25 Oct 2008, bluesberry barton wrote:

    Whether these latest two republicans to endorse Obama will make any difference remains to be seen.

    I would like to ask, though, have there been any current or former democrats who have endorsed McCain so far in the run up to the election - if not then why not and if so why have they not been mentioned?

    Complain about this comment

  • 322. At 3:36pm on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    303, AsaScot.

    "For the sake of Britishish and others how about we discuss the economic policies of the two candidates, by which I mean what they have actually said they will do not what people imagine they might do once they get into office."

    Nice try. But just between you and me (somehow I don't think your plea is going to work) I don't find either's economic policies in the least bit convincing. Or even particularly practicable.

    McCain's basically relies on a free-market economy somehow coming through, with a few more subsidies, however much damage gets done in the meantime, and postponing the costs in terms of borrowing until later.

    Obama's on some kind of half-hearted New Deal reconstruction and aid. And postponing the costs of borrowing until later.

    Either way, whoever gets elected is I presume going to give the American electorate a nasty surprise, if not a severe shock, when they actually face up to the problems some time after the 5th of November (I do like that date!) and (could this really happen?) turn honest about their options.

    The way things are going, they are each going to have to work at this a lot harder and well in advance of January 2009. After all, ten per cent of that 700bn bailout by then will have been siphoned off into bonuses, would you believe.

    (Source: The Guardian: I keep mentioning this, and nobody ever takes it up! You'd think at least one or two of all those who go on about 'big government' and 'bureaucratic waste' would, wouldn't you? But they just go on about witches and wardrobes.)

    I just hope either of them can think up another way out of it than just having another war or simply boosting one they've got already, but most of my reading of history doesn't encourage me.

    Complain about this comment

  • 323. At 3:39pm on 25 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    As A Scot,

    My understanding of the tax proposals is that Obama's would add something like 3 Trillion to the deficit, while McCain's would add something between 4 and 5 trillion (over the same period).

    Also that McCain's tax cuts would favour the very rich and corporations, while Obama's increases would target those sectors while leaving the middle class (below $250k p/a) untouched or better off...but them I'm on the Obama Kool-Ade - it's far tastier than McCain's sour brew!

    Peace and beverages
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 324. At 3:41pm on 25 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #290

    And your source for this?

    Why is it so hard for Gore supporters to admidt that he blew the election?

    Complain about this comment

  • 325. At 3:43pm on 25 Oct 2008, RomeStu wrote:

    Following my previous post, where I announced my conversion to "sharkism" I have just read another article in "Nature" (please cut and paste this link ....)

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v455/n7216/full/4551038a.html


    and now I realise it is all in the mind, and I was on the right track before.


    Oh - I know this wasn't strictly relevant to this blog, but I hope it will make people smile and think.

    Peace and open minds.

    Complain about this comment

  • 326. At 3:45pm on 25 Oct 2008, Stephen Derry wrote:

    #252 very good post, read it again

    Just a word on liberal media bias in general and BBC bias in particular. Just suppose for a moment that this is a world in which Obama is really popular, not amongst the media, but amongst the general population of the USA, and indeed the rest of the world. And just suppose a majority of people are also less than impressed with McCain's campaign (one of course follows the other).

    Now imagine what happens when the BBC and other media reports this popularity, in a proportionate way. Constant positive reports of one campaign, mostly negative reports of the other. If you support McCain, of course you are going to think this is biased, when in fact it is just straightforward coverage of the balance of opinion.

    Imagine if the BBC used "positive discrimination" to try and give the McCain campaign a lot more positive coverage than it merited, and the Obama campaign a lot less. That really WOULD be bias, the BBC would become no different to Fox News and take on the appearance of a partisan organisation.

    I know it is hard for you to imagine because Republicans are always fantastic and Democrats are always evil. But the Democratic campaign is unified, enthusiastic, concentrating on genuine issues, polling better, and has out-registered the Republicans on new voters something like 4:1. You may believe McCain is spot on with everything he says, but he lacks eloquence, the Republicans are split, the VP candidate is divisive, the base is lacking enthusiasm compared to previous campaigns, and the majority of the message seems to be negative, personality-based, and isn't having much effect on public opinion or the polls. Sometimes the appearance of bias is deceptive, sometimes all the "liberal" media have to do is report the way things are, and any partisan goals are achieved without the need for spin.

    I think a lot of the problems of the Republican party are that the things they think are negative are being perceived as positive by most people outside the Republican base, therefore many of their most repeated attacks are actually bolstering Obama's position.

    "He's going to spread the wealth"
    "About time too, our economy is a disaster"

    "He's going to sit down and talk to terror states"
    "A peaceful diplomatic solution, excellent!"

    "He's a massive celebrity like Paris Hilton"
    "Yeah, he's really popular, let's vote for him!"


    Complain about this comment

  • 327. At 3:48pm on 25 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 328. At 3:49pm on 25 Oct 2008, RomeStu wrote:

    #319 - Maggie.

    Your link was to a known extreme right wing "blog". I do not consider other peoples speculation to be the truth.

    Perhaps I should be more specific and ask whether anyone ELSE can confirm this heritage with FACTS.

    I read enough to realise that this is just more ludicrous scare-mongering. The prime argument seems to be his "arab" name - Hussein.

    There are many ethnic African muslims in Nigeria who use traditional islamist names. It proves nothing.

    Complain about this comment

  • 329. At 3:49pm on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    exserviceman:

    "The media coverage of Iraq has been pathetic. As you say it is typically a Jornalist sitting in Baghdad in an air conditioned hotel providing a voice over to a film from an Iraqi camerman who has taken all the risks."

    I didn't quite mean that, though that certainly describes much of what I saw/see on ABC and CBS. (I know in Sarajevo both networks were using film shot by BBC cameramen, voiced over by their reporters -- including Dan Rather -- to give the utterly false impression they had actually been on the spot.)

    I was referring more to some of the filmed reports and documentaries we see here actually commissioned and made wholly by Iraqi reporters and cameramen at great risk to their own lives and not passed off as being done by someone safely holed up in the Green Zone.

    I doubt, somehow, your wished-for conclusion. I could be wrong, but I don't see either Obama or McCain supporting the ICC. And surely Bush will be signing Presidential Pardons long into the night before he takes his seat in the removal van?

    Complain about this comment

  • 330. At 3:53pm on 25 Oct 2008, Steve wrote:

    Palling around with dictators? Much of US foreign policy for the last 50 years has been about installing and/or supporting dictators.

    This is particularly true in Central and South America, where the people have suffered terribly due to these activities.

    Pinochet's regime killed many but the Argentinian military Junta actually killed more, but it gets less publicity.

    When Henry Kissinger was informed that there was an impending coup in Argentina and that many left wing activists would be slaughtered, he was not concerned. Instead he said "We must encourage them". You can actually listen to this on the Nixon Tapes available publicly.

    Complain about this comment

  • 331. At 3:56pm on 25 Oct 2008, frayedcat wrote:

    NEWSFLASH - Heres why McCain Palin just lost Missouri

    ST. LOUIS (AP) -- Blues goalie Manny Legace left after one period Friday night with a hip injury that occurred when he slipped on the carpet placed on the ice for Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin.

    Complain about this comment

  • 332. At 3:57pm on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    325. RomeStu,

    What does seem very relevant to this blog is the last sentence, even if to my mind it's blindingly obvious:

    "Some form of religious thinking seems to be the path of least resistance for our cognitive systems. By contrast, disbelief is generally the result of deliberate, effortful work against our natural cognitive dispositions — hardly the easiest ideology to propagate."

    Complain about this comment

  • 333. At 3:59pm on 25 Oct 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    #322 British-ish:

    "Obama's on some kind of half-hearted New Deal reconstruction and aid. And postponing the costs of borrowing until later."

    #323 Ed Iglehart:
    "My understanding of the tax proposals is that Obama's would add something like 3 Trillion to the deficit, while McCain's would add something between 4 and 5 trillion (over the same period)."

    I guess I would favour even a half-hearted version of the New Deal, and isn't Gordon Brown planning something similiar? At least wiht the Obama plan you might get some new bridges and roads out of it rather than Chinese Plasma TV's and Japanese cars.
    I do agree with you though British-ish that whoever wins will have to take far more drastic action than they can admit at the moment, and there is one action that Obama would probably be more sanguine about than McCain that could save the US billions, starts with a I ends in a Q...

    Complain about this comment

  • 334. At 4:06pm on 25 Oct 2008, Notaleftie wrote:

    Why are the press always economical with the truth when discussing right wing administrations. The American report states that Pinochet left power in 1990, it does not state he called democratic elections, stood as candidate for President was defeated and accepted the vote of the people of Chile.

    We never hear the same criticism of Castro who also came to power with a coup, tortured and imprisoned political opposition and has still not called democratic elections instead passing on his role to his broither.

    Complain about this comment

  • 335. At 4:07pm on 25 Oct 2008, Notaleftie wrote:

    Why are the press always economical with the truth when discussing right wing administrations. The American report states that Pinochet left power in 1990, it does not state he called democratic elections, stood as candidate for President was defeated and accepted the vote of the people of Chile.

    We never hear the same criticism of Castro who also came to power with a coup, tortured and imprisoned political opposition and has still not called democratic elections 50 years later instead passing on his role to his brother.

    Complain about this comment

  • 336. At 4:12pm on 25 Oct 2008, oldnat wrote:

    #325 RomeStu

    Can I join your new "sharkism" religion?

    Then we can instantly schism as to whether the Virgin conceived shark was there to save all fish, or sharks alone.

    Complain about this comment

  • 337. At 4:13pm on 25 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    The Missing Link (third try) The Mods (who are as Gods) removed my attempts to link directly to a forbidden format (Portable Document File), so I provide the above for your convenience.

    Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in the "letter from 2012" are not necessarily similar to mine! ;-) In fact, I find some of their "dire" predictions quite attractive....

    Peace and The Future
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 338. At 4:14pm on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    333, AsaScot wrote: I guess I would favour even a half-hearted version of the New Deal, and isn't Gordon Brown planning something similiar?

    Not quite, I don't think; he's said currently planned projects won't be cut; as far as I can see, the Democrats will have to start from scratch. The effect is similar, but the American one will inevitably cost more, because it'll need new money.

    The Chinese or the Indians will probably be supplying the material for the new bridges anyway, won't they? Much more profitable than toys or TV's. The Chinese have already begun abandoning toys.

    (I'm not a 'you' by the way, if you see what I mean. I see, however, that this discussion is still mostly just 'us'. . .)

    Complain about this comment

  • 339. At 4:16pm on 25 Oct 2008, frayedcat wrote:

    This is getting nutty! And uglier and uglier on the GOP side - time to cut it out and grow up! Vote Obama!

    Washington Post: "As for the hoax, about 10 days ago, e-mails began appearing asking if "Dale Lindsborg" was a columnist at The Post. The answer is no. A few forwarded his "column," which purported to report and criticize an Obama appearance on "Meet the Press." The bogus report said that Obama disliked the national anthem, had attended flag-burning ceremonies and intended disarmament..." A Hoax

    NY Times: "What is known, however, is that Ms. Palin has had long associations with religious leaders who practice a particularly assertive and urgent brand of Pentecostalism known as “spiritual warfare.” Its adherents believe that demonic forces can colonize specific geographic areas and individuals, and that “spiritual warriors” must “battle” them to assert God’s control, using prayer and evangelism. The movement’s fixation on demons, its aggressiveness and its leaders’ claims to exalted spiritual authority have troubled even some Pentecostal Christians." Mary Glazier, an Alaska Native who helped bring together the prayer warrior networks in the state, told a prayer conference in June that Ms. Palin “became a part of our prayer group out in Wasilla” when she was 24, and that “God began to speak” to her about entering politics. " A Nutcase




    Complain about this comment

  • 340. At 4:20pm on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    ricky78732:

    Every time I make a rational response to you, you disappear.

    I'm not playing your game any more; it's tiresome. Don't expect any response at all from me in future, no matter how provocative you try to be.

    Complain about this comment

  • 341. At 4:23pm on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    336 (oldnat wrote: #325 RomeStu
    Can I join your new "sharkism" religion?)

    Can I be the anti-shark?

    Complain about this comment

  • 342. At 4:25pm on 25 Oct 2008, Percepied wrote:

    Justin Webb links to the Huffington Post of all things who have distorted McCain's position.

    Pinochet, although of course a dictator, was a US ally at the time.

    There is a massive difference between meeting with an ally, and what McCain has criticised Obama for proposing - sitting down with the leader of Iran, a nation actively sponsoring terrorism in several countries, and intent on developing a nuclear capacity most likely as the foundation for a weapons programme.

    Justin seems to have given up any attempt at critical judgement or impartiality.



    Complain about this comment

  • 343. At 4:25pm on 25 Oct 2008, Stephen Derry wrote:

    ...and no-one ever mentions that Hitler loved his mother

    Complain about this comment

  • 344. At 4:26pm on 25 Oct 2008, RomeStu wrote:

    #336 oldnat wrote:
    "#325 RomeStu
    Can I join your new "sharkism" religion?

    Then we can instantly schism as to whether the Virgin conceived shark was there to save all fish, or sharks alone."


    My friend - what about water-based mammals?

    Who will save the whales this time?

    Complain about this comment

  • 345. At 4:29pm on 25 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    All,

    Might we consider banning the use of the letters I. R. and A in that particular order since they seem to occur in so many names of troublesome folks and places...? (IRA, Iran, Iraq, Israel...any other offers?)

    And RomeStu, While you're in the Scientific Journals, you might read this, this, and this

    Peace and an informed view
    ed
    Oh! And this...

    Complain about this comment

  • 346. At 4:30pm on 25 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    "Ms. Palin became a part of our prayer group out in Wasilla when she was 24, and that God began to speak to her about entering politics."
    ( frayedcat)

    Now we know who to blame, then, What a shame he didn't suggest sacrificing herself to a moose. You see why I just can't bring myself to believe in God?

    Complain about this comment

  • 347. At 4:31pm on 25 Oct 2008, wangfrancis18 wrote:

    support obama!

    Complain about this comment

  • 348. At 4:35pm on 25 Oct 2008, malcolmd3111 wrote:

    324. Why is it so hard for Gore supporters to admit that he blew the election?

    It was Monica who blew the election. If Clinton hadn't been a catalyst for the far right shadow, Gore woudl have won. It is painful to think how much Clinton's philandering has cost this country. However, to be fair to him he was merely the agent provocateaur which incited the Republicans and others to vote for Bush.

    I can only hope that if BO is elected that he remains above the pettiness and temptations inside the DC Beltway and forges a new a government that the US can be proud of.

    Complain about this comment

  • 349. At 4:38pm on 25 Oct 2008, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    # 287 Magic Ubermensch announced "No Bush won in 2000 by recieving (sic) more votes/not only Fox News the most repuatable (sic) cable news source in the U.S but the Miami Herald and even NYT said so"

    At #289, eightypercent pointed out that Gore got over half a million more votes than Bush

    At 324. Magic's stunning rebuttal to this - "And your source for this?/Why is it so hard for Gore supporters to admidt (sic) that he blew the election?"

    Magic - as ever, you are as predictable as you are accurate and literate.

    Firstly I'm torn between amazement and amusement at the hypocrisy of you of all people calling for sources. I don't believe that anyone on this blog engages in more unsourced, sweeping generalisations masking as fact than you. [And, God only knows, you have plenty of competition!]

    Eighty's facts are so universally acknowledged as to not need proving.

    Were you normal I'd refer you to Wikipedia - specifically http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2000.

    However Magic has already told us that Wiki are yet another part of the Great Left Wing Liberal Commie Muslim Pinko Conspiracy - because they won't let him edit their page on Hamas. Perhaps they suspect he's just the slightest bit lacking in objectivity...

    In 04 the NYT published an article about GWB. It's here - http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/magazine/17BUSH.html

    It includes this description of a conversation with a Bush aide - "The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality""

    I'm a proud member of the "reality-based community"

    Bush and Magic have clearly left reality behind loooooong ago

    Complain about this comment

  • 350. At 4:40pm on 25 Oct 2008, oldnat wrote:

    #344 RomeStu

    "water based mammals" indeed!

    Next thing, you'll be suggesting that mammals "evolved" from fish!

    I can refer you to several websites that ABSOLUTELY PROVE that this a HERESY!

    Complain about this comment

  • 351. At 4:40pm on 25 Oct 2008, TheFeldkircher wrote:

    Over the last few weeks/months I have been reading the various posting's here.

    One thing that seems clear to me now, is that you will never change someones opinion no matter how hard you try.

    Trying to convince another that your view point is more valid is a waste of time.

    Trying to use incomplete facts, inuendo, subterfuge or any other tactic is a waste of time.

    Despite the daily twist and turns of a very hard fought campaign, neither candidate is assured of victory.

    But one thing you can be certain of, you have the greatest gift democracy can afford you - the Vote.

    Like you, millions of Americans will be voting on or before Nov 4th, all that we ask is that you vote with good conscience.

    Rest assured there will be more attempts to delect your reasoning - but at the end of the day it's just you and the ballot box.

    What more could you need...

    Complain about this comment

  • 352. At 4:42pm on 25 Oct 2008, RomeStu wrote:

    #337 - Ed - the Christian letter from 2012 raised some interesting points ..... and I realise these are not your views.

    will we really in only 4 years see the end to prejudice and discrimination based on sexual orientation?

    Much of this focused on homosexuality and youth work or teaching.

    1) homosexuals are not paedophiles.
    2) if a Christian is offended the homosexuality might be considered "as valid" as heterosexuality .... then I am offended that they think it might not be.

    Religion is for the church, not the classroom.


    If your time-travelling Christian focused a bit more on the economy, and less on the threat to his own belief structure, evidence for which he can only give as "in the Bible it says..." (a kind of self-certification .. it's true because my book says it is true)


    Very thought provoking .... but please don't show it to those young evangelicals who are actually going to vote with their heads for the good of the country for once.

    Peace

    Complain about this comment

  • 353. At 4:45pm on 25 Oct 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    #338 British-ish:

    "The Chinese or the Indians will probably be supplying the material for the new bridges anyway, won't they? Much more profitable than toys or TV's. The Chinese have already begun abandoning toys.

    (I'm not a 'you' by the way, if you see what I mean. I see, however, that this discussion is still mostly just 'us'. . .)"

    Im' not sure about that, I do enjoy watching those TV documentaries about major contruction projects and its surprising how often those in the far east seem to require the import of materials and expertise from the west. Also since Obama isn't a fan of unlimited free trade he could just load the contracts in favour of US firms couldn't he?
    Also I'm hoping that a rational discussion might work on the more, irrational, contributors here like a crucifix on a vampire. :)

    Complain about this comment

  • 354. At 4:55pm on 25 Oct 2008, RomeStu wrote:

    #350 oldnat wrote:
    "#344 RomeStu
    "water based mammals" indeed!

    Next thing, you'll be suggesting that mammals "evolved" from fish!

    I can refer you to several websites that ABSOLUTELY PROVE that this a HERESY!"


    Actually a sharkian believes that fish evolved from mammals and are the toughest daddies on the planet.

    I'm thinking about letting mermaids join though - they're cute!

    Complain about this comment

  • 355. At 4:58pm on 25 Oct 2008, olgeezerfromVa wrote:

    Dammit, Can we get past this Joe the plumber crap, puleeze. For those who do not seem to understand, look it up on you tube, or one of the network news videos, it is all over the internet. Barack Obama did not go to his door, he was walking down the street, taking questions, and shaking hands, Joe"the not plumber", approached him with a question, and Obama gave him a very sensible answer, obviously above "Joe Sam's level of thinking. It was not Obama, but the McCain/Palin ticket who could not stop dropping Joes name on national TV, it is their fault, and theirs alone that the media sought him out, what do you expect a reporter to do, ignore this guy, who was mentioned 21 times by Mccain in debate # 3. Then McCain has the audacity to say that Obama has put the media on this frauds backside, if Joe does not want the publicity, stop giving interviews, stay off the lawn, close your doors, call the cops and have them removed from your property, THAT SIMPLE. Now Joe is considering running for Congress in 2010, has a couple of book deals in the works, and who can blame him, it is worth a minimum of $150K US in clothing from the RNC alone. Everytime McCain or Palin open their dirty little mouths, more hate and lies spew out. She is the McBush, the whole world needs to keep an eye on this woman, she is surely dangerous, knows nothing, and is not afraid to share her lack of knowledge with anyone willing to listen to her garbage. If you are a Bush fan , you will love McCain, he will keep us involved in many, many wars, which we can ill afford, he does love the good fight does he not. I do not know about the rest of the World, but I am sick of war, sick of not having affordable health care, sick of a weak economy, sick of a pitiful educational system, and very sick of having no respect from the rest of the World. Obama is a man with high ethical standards, with a vision that will give not only the US, but, hopefully our Allies a better future. And for you sickos who put him down for visiting his dying Grandmother, shame on you, you can take that Rush Limbaugh attitude and put it where the sun does not shine. Ahhh, I feel so much better with that off my chest.
    Obama/ Biden -08/12

    Complain about this comment

  • 356. At 5:01pm on 25 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    #317

    "liquahussein

    You make some excellent points about Sunnis and Shias .....

    ...I have said in several other posts - it's never about religion, only about politics and power."

    Yes, Hussein does make good points.

    And yes, it's not about religion. The worst atrocities in human history happened either IN Europe, or were exported FROM Europe - AFTER their "Enlightenment".

    These atrocities were committed by secular governments in the name of European empires, which had nothing to do with religion. Rather, they were all about greed and power - the very things religion warns us about, and reveals as our natural human condition.

    But some Europeans will do these things :

    -- Blame most of it on religion

    -- Blame the rest of it on the US

    -- Attempt to exterminate religion (a la communism - state sponsored atheism)

    -- practice bigoted, hateful anti-Americanism (not unlike the hateful nationalism they praticed against each other, which led to two World Wars)

    All this to avoid accepting any blame. Which is all about PRIDE...

    ... something else religion tried to warn us about.

    Complain about this comment

  • 357. At 5:02pm on 25 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:



    ref #349. At 4:38pm on 25 Oct 2008, john-In-Dublin wrote:
    # 287 Magic Ubermensch announced "No Bush won in 2000 by recieving (sic) more votes/not only Fox News the most repuatable (sic) cable news source in the U.S but the Miami Herald and even NYT said so"

    At #289, eightypercent pointed out that Gore got over half a million more votes than Bush


    (Sorry John if that were true, Gore would have been President)
    At 324. Magic's stunning rebuttal to this - "And your source for this?/Why is it so hard for Gore supporters to admidt (sic) that he blew the election?"

    .

    Firstly I'm torn between amazement and amusement at the hypocrisy of you of all people calling for sources. I don't believe that anyone on this blog engages in more unsourced, sweeping generalisations masking as fact than you. [And, God only knows, you have plenty of competition!]

    Eighty's facts are so universally acknowledged as to not need proving.

    Were you normal I'd refer you to Wikipedia - specifically http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2000.

    However Magic has already told us that Wiki are yet another part of the Great Left Wing Liberal Commie Muslim Pinko Conspiracy - because they won't let him edit their page on Hamas. Perhaps they suspect he's just the slightest bit lacking in objectivity...

    (Wikipedia is not recognized as a legitimate source by any reputable news source. A person can put in a reference source and if an administrator doesn't like the source or information, they remove it and block the user. They are far more authoratarian than the BBC moderators)

    I'm a proud member of the "reality-based community"

    (No you like many Obamaphile suffer from Cognitive Dissoance)



    Complain about this comment

  • 358. At 5:03pm on 25 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    #112 "To compare Senator Obama and Democrats as anywhere near the National Socialists of Third Reich is absolutely propostrous! ...

    ...Come on, get real about this. Please do not use idle throw-away comments about Hitler, the comparison does not do you justice!"

    True.

    But many Democrats have compared Republicans to Hitler. It's a two way street. Both are equally absurd.

    Complain about this comment

  • 359. At 5:04pm on 25 Oct 2008, exserviceman wrote:

    BillTyrone at 316

    I was in the Royal Artillery from 1989 to 1993.

    First Gulf War with 1st UK armoured Division.

    Spent Time in Iraq only during the war itself and immediate aftermath.

    I been watching in horror at the Iraq war under Rumsfeldt. Abu Graib almost did me in, its like everthing you believe being destroyed.

    Were you with the Royal Irish regiment?

    I have followed the War very closely, found only Michael Yon, Mark Urban and john Simpson reported with understanding.

    Michael Yon in particular has been reporting from with US Army units fighting in Iraq. He's taken massive risks, but explained so much.

    Only when US troops stayed in the communities and fought against AQI 24/7 did the tide turn. Previously that would stay in large bases and patrol from there in death trap light Hummvees.

    The bases were so spread out that AQI could get up to 2 hours warning of a US patrol - madness. The Locals would be abandoned to AQI in the evenings.

    David Patraeus stopped all that with the surge, turned local sunnis against AQI by recruiting them into the CLC's.

    AQI did such brutal and cruel things to anyone who stood up to them in the areas they controlled, all it took was the surge to flip the local sunni's over to the coalition side.

    As soon as they saw US troops were going to stay 24/7, they helped drive out foreign arab AQI, point out booby traps and roadside bombs. Its a victory for the Iraqi people as much as it is for the Marines and Army.

    AQI has seen a crushing defeat, that is partly why Afghanistan is getting hotter, Al Quaida is now concentrating nearly all their money on funding the taliban and increasing Pakistani AQI recruitment.

    Its going to take a long drawn out surge strategy to win in Afghanistan. Losing the Pakistani's as allies is amazingly dangerous.

    Mccain's instinct will be to let Petraeous handle the key decisions on Afghanistan. Air raiding into Pakhistan will be reduced, only if local commanders have excellent intel [I won't even dare write down how I think they will do that]

    This idea of Obamas about getting info for a Osama bin Laden air strike is dreaming. They have to isolate Al Quaida from the local warlike tribes first, that will take years.

    To have sum nit wit civi-lawyer poking his micromanaging nose in is the last thing US forces need. Appoint an excellent commander and let him get on with it.

    Mccain is the Man for CinC. Obama? That man will leave you naked.

    Complain about this comment

  • 360. At 5:10pm on 25 Oct 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    Thought of a modification to my comments, instead of building roads and bridges how about nuclear power plants, solar arrays, and wind farms(though the Chinese are indeed leading producers of wind turbines)?
    This would both generate jobs in the US and cut oil imports. And for those of a right wing disposition imagine the look on Hugo Chavez face if the US president announced he wanted to move to a carbon free economy.
    Also to clarify I think China is capable of hi-tech advances but at the moment the political setup is a serious brake on the kind of creative thinking that involves. It may be the major hurdle that China faces in its economic growth.

    Complain about this comment

  • 361. At 5:12pm on 25 Oct 2008, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    # 337 Ed Iglehart

    A link to a 'Christian' "letter from 2012"

    He added "I find some of their "dire" predictions quite attractive...."

    I had a look at this. It's rather depressing. The so-called 'Christian' view is that , after 4 years of Obama, it'll be nothing but gays and commies. They may also have suggested there would be Concentration Camps for Christians - I didn't get that far.

    I find their obsession with homosexuals, to the extent of nearly everything else, bizarre and amusing - and with v little to do with Christianity or the teachings of Christ.

    There's a saying attributed to the late Bob Hope. It's one of my guiding principles. If he did say it I imagine it was written for him, possibly eg around the time they legalised homosexual acts in the UK [c the mid-60s].

    "I don't mind if they make it legal - as long as they don't make it compulsory'.

    The principle being - there are all sorts of things others might choose to do. That's fine - as long as they don't insist that I join in.

    Sad that so many of these fundamentalist fanatics cannot tell the difference. Nor indeed tell the difference between 'The Word Of God', 'My Personal Prejudices', and 'Republican Policy'.



    Complain about this comment

  • 362. At 5:22pm on 25 Oct 2008, U12831485 wrote:

    After following this blog for several weeks, I began to wonder, where are all the prudential, intelligent supporters of the Republican candidates ?

    I know they exist, and there are many of them, but after browsing countless message boards and blogs , it almost seems like they don't speak up online very much.

    Look at this posting for example :

    ________

    191, BraunSA wrote:
    ?The question really is "where are you" in the "government is the answer" debate. That's what this boils down to. Do you want me to pay for your inactio, and your unachievement? Where is your responsibility in this process?

    _________

    How can one have a reasonable talk with a person like that ?

    Taken seriously, such people bring down any discussion to the level of explaining the very basic knowledge of society, political systems, even human rights.

    I mean, why bother explaining the actual difference between Facism and Communism, Socialism and Capitalism, Christian religion and born-again lunatics, Nazi Germany and Iraq for the uptenth time ?

    The difference between rattling off campaign slogans vs. an educated comment on a candidate's program ?

    It's like discussing Quantum Theory with a kid who can't count to ten.

    Complain about this comment

  • 363. At 5:31pm on 25 Oct 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    359. At 5:04pm on 25 Oct 2008, exserviceman wrote:
    BillTyrone at 316

    I was in the Royal Artillery from 1989 to 1993.

    First Gulf War with 1st UK armoured Division.

    Spent Time in Iraq only during the war itself and immediate aftermath.

    I been watching in horror at the Iraq war under Rumsfeldt. Abu Graib almost did me in, its like everthing you believe being destroyed."

    Then you should have an understanding of the country

    Do you speak Arabic?

    "I have followed the War very closely, found only Michael Yon, Mark Urban and john Simpson reported with understanding.

    Michael Yon in particular has been reporting from with US Army units fighting in Iraq. He's taken massive risks, but explained so much. "

    From the US point of view, and there are two sides in a war.

    "Only when US troops stayed in the communities and fought against AQI 24/7 did the tide turn. Previously that would stay in large bases and patrol from there in death trap light Hummvees.

    The bases were so spread out that AQI could get up to 2 hours warning of a US patrol - madness. The Locals would be abandoned to AQI in the evenings. "

    Yes but the insurgents were not all made up of Al Quaeda were they? You seem not to know your enemy.

    "David Patraeus stopped all that with the surge, turned local sunnis against AQI by recruiting them into the CLC's."

    So the bombings and shootings we hear of arenot actually happening?

    "AQI did such brutal and cruel things to anyone who stood up to them in the areas they controlled, all it took was the surge to flip the local sunni's over to the coalition side. "

    Hmm money and guns played no role then?

    "As soon as they saw US troops were going to stay 24/7, they helped drive out foreign arab AQI, point out booby traps and roadside bombs. Its a victory for the Iraqi people as much as it is for the Marines and Army."

    Many of the insurgents were the Iraqi people. The Mehdi army, the militias.

    It is of course comforting to beleive that all one's enemies are crazed fanatics not the real people.

    But then all invaders have claimed not to be fighting the "real people".

    The german army claimed the French etc resistance movements were all criminals and communists inspired by Stalin.

    "AQI has seen a crushing defeat, that is partly why Afghanistan is getting hotter, Al Quaida is now concentrating nearly all their money on funding the taliban and increasing Pakistani AQI recruitment."

    Has it? So you would recomend a holiday in Iraq? All the Iraqi refugees, the interpreters too scared to go back - this is all the sign of a temendous victory is it?

    "Its going to take a long drawn out surge strategy to win in Afghanistan. Losing the Pakistani's as allies is amazingly dangerous."

    Hmm you don't think reconstruction might be an issue too? You know the odd hospital etc

    You also don't think destroying the poppy crop is not exactly a brilliant idea either?

    "Mccain's instinct will be to let Petraeous handle the key decisions on Afghanistan. Air raiding into Pakhistan will be reduced, only if local commanders have excellent intel [I won't even dare write down how I think they will do that]"

    McCain's instincts have not proved all that sound so far. And given the fact that General Petreaus did not succeed in Iraq (by his own admission) then hoping for him to work a miracle in Afghanistan is not goingto happen.

    After all we've tried giving missiles to a warring gangs there before.

    "This idea of Obamas about getting info for a Osama bin Laden air strike is dreaming. They have to isolate Al Quaida from the local warlike tribes first, that will take years.

    To have sum nit wit civi-lawyer poking his micromanaging nose in is the last thing US forces need. Appoint an excellent commander and let him get on with it."

    Hmmm lyes that worked in WW1 with 10 million dead.

    No Obama's policy has its oproblems but recogniosing reality is key. There is no way the US can reconstruct Afghanistan in the middleof a recesion and without the funds to replace the crops etc it is only a matter of time before things collapse again.

    We now learn the the coalition has been "talking to the Taliban"

    So much for principle.



    Complain about this comment

    Complain about this comment

  • 364. At 5:44pm on 25 Oct 2008, exserviceman wrote:

    british-ish at 329

    I have seen as many of those local Iraqi films, the only issue is that for quite a time the Shia were in fear of the Mehdi army and Sunni of AQI who in both cases seem to rule the nights in a lot of areas, pre surge.

    Difficult to blame the right people for the killings if you think you might be next on the death squad list.

    Even so I would always listen to them with quiet interest, reading between the lines about what is not said sometimes.

    Some of the US/UK reports from inexperienced reporters would get my back up immediately. The constant use of the phrase "heavy fighting" to descibe a minor fire fight 10 miles away being one of them.

    As for the ICC you must be exactly right, I laughed bitterly at your image of Bush writing pardons. Right on target there. How many will it be 500, 600?

    Of course they will be a 101 legal technicalities why Cheney and Rumsfeldt can't be brought to book for their corruption, even in US courts, but on an emotional level the idea of those two rotten men being prosecuted is appealing.

    Complain about this comment

  • 365. At 5:46pm on 25 Oct 2008, guardian2275 wrote:

    Margaret Thatcher was not made a Dame. She is
    Baroness Thatcher.

    Complain about this comment

  • 366. At 5:46pm on 25 Oct 2008, john-In-Dublin wrote:

    357 MagicKirin the Ubermensch wrote:

    Stunning drivel, even by his low standards

    [I think it was P Ustinov who quoted an appraisal of another officer during WW2 - something like 'he sets himself abysmally low standards, which he signally fails to achieve'.]

    Me - "At #289, eightypercent pointed out that Gore got over half a million more votes than Bush"

    Magic's stunning rebuttal - "(Sorry John if that were true, Gore would have been President)"

    Magic - it's fact. It's reality. Get used to it.

    Just in case you're confused, this of course refers to the national vote - as eightypercent made clear in his posting - or did you think there were more than 100m votes in Florida?! [Point of correction - he was at #290 not #289.]

    He adds - "Wikipedia is not recognized as a legitimate source by any reputable news source"

    Any proof of that - or just another generalisation?

    I don't assume anything or everything Wikipedia say is true - then again the same is true for most things I see on the Web.

    You obviously have better sources, proving Bush got more votes nationally than Gore. For once, let's hear them - let's have evidence instead of sweeping and unbiased generalisation. Put up or shut up, as they say.

    He concludes "(No you like many Obamaphile (sic) suffer from Cognitive Dissoance (sic) )"

    Magic, don't use big words you don't understand and cannot spell.

    Complain about this comment

  • 367. At 6:10pm on 25 Oct 2008, Stephen Derry wrote:

    357: MagicKirin wrote:

    "'At #289, eightypercent pointed out that Gore got over half a million more votes than Bush'

    (Sorry John if that were true, Gore would have been President)"

    At the risk of sounding a little like John McCain, Kirin doesn't understand the electoral college system!

    As everyone else in the known universe is aware, to become President, Gore needed more electoral college votes. The national popular vote doesn't matter, only the popular vote within each state. Any candidate can theoretically get a zillion votes in California, win the popular vote by a mile, yet not win any other states.

    I'm sure we don't need to point out to Kirin that such a blatant lack of knowledge (and failure to acknowledge it) reflects badly on his credibility in respect of anything else he ever says. Fortunately for him he doesn't have much credibility to lose...

    Complain about this comment

  • 368. At 6:16pm on 25 Oct 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    261. At 12:38pm on 25 Oct 2008, oldnat wrote:
    #251 DameMargaretThatcher

    How do you sharpen a hammer?


    Could be done either forging once off the handle or with a grinder . the forging would leave more material.

    But does it then become an AXE .

    Or a pointed object neither of which would have much use as a hammer.
    Not very Up on her Iron Our Iron lady.

    Complain about this comment

  • 369. At 6:30pm on 25 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Bill and Exserviceman (and any others interested),

    My own personal favourite reports from Iraq have been from Hugh Sykes, who has an uncanny ability to get to the basic human situation.
    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
    and
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7663506.stm
    and
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7670292.stm
    and
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2008/09/080929_iraqpostcard_nh.shtml
    and
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/7612319.stm

    Just to be going on with. Talk about "the common touch"!!!

    Peace and Hugh Sykes
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 370. At 6:30pm on 25 Oct 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    #325

    Stu, Nat,

    Sharkism is heresy. You must renounce this foul practice and rejoin the faithful church of the FSM.

    http://www.venganza.org/

    Pastor Sam

    P.S. Mermaids are cute! And Pirates are fun (even if they are the baddies).

    Complain about this comment

  • 371. At 6:33pm on 25 Oct 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    # 359

    The secret of the surge: PAY and arm the Sunni tribesmen to attack AIQ.

    Now, the Iraqui government is only going to continue paying one-third of those tribesmen.

    What will the other two-thirds do with their new arms ?

    (Note that Sunni and the majority Shia are not the best of friends)

    Complain about this comment

  • 372. At 6:38pm on 25 Oct 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    #357 Magickirin:

    "(Sorry John if that were true, Gore would have been President)
    At 324. Magic's stunning rebuttal to this - "And your source for this?/Why is it so hard for Gore supporters to admidt (sic) that he blew the election?"

    Okay since magic doesn't trust Wiki perhaps he will accept the Federal Election Commission?

    http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/2000presgeresults.htm

    Took me all of 30 seconds to find on google typing 'US 2000 official election results', though puzzlingly its only third on the list...

    Complain about this comment

  • 373. At 6:40pm on 25 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Jack,

    "But does it then become an AXE .

    Or a pointed object neither of which would have much use as a hammer."
    It might become a very useful hammer for a rock-hound (geologist)

    ;-)
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 374. At 6:43pm on 25 Oct 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    Looking at that 2000 table one can't help but think that if Bush could hand out an 'honours list' on leaving office as British PM's do Ralph Nader would be in line for a peerage!

    Complain about this comment

  • 375. At 6:49pm on 25 Oct 2008, exserviceman wrote:

    Simon21 at 361
    You make fair points really.

    I am limited to english, so no I can't speak Arabic. The only thing I know is its a phonetic language with a similar number of letters in its alphabet as the Roman character system.

    The Iranians use the same character system
    but the actual language spoken is as different as French is to German?

    Arabic seems to be a bit like Latin in europe, except its still used by educated arabic people in the middle east as a living language. Local languages use the same letters but local vocab.

    The yonger Kurds seem to have not picked up the ability to speak it in many cases, thats a shame for Iraq I think.

    I be very happy to be corrected on the above, its always interesting to learn about other people and their cultures.

    My sources are all westerners, but all people who like Iraqis.

    AQI had many local sunni recruits, but these people were mainly in it for the money because the Initial Iraqi government, dominated by Shia parties, tended to exlude sunnis from jobs linked to government. The sunnis also bocotted the first election, making the effect worse than it need have been.

    No guns were required to recruit the Anbar tribes really. Every Iraqi man has an AK-47 allready - this is allowed and expected.

    The US money was needed, of course, for wages because the Iraqi government had to be persuaded that the CLC's would eventually be loyal to a united Iraq government.

    This is still an issue, the US needs to stay until the CLC's get absorbed into the Iraqi army and police. It also helped to get the economy going. Patience is a virtue in the middle east, it takes time to build trust.

    The leaders and upper command structure of AQI were mainly from outside Iraq as were nearly every single suicide bomber. Zarqari [my spelling is wrong there] was a Jordanian Citizen for example.

    The Mahadi army was a collection people paid by Iran, they helped in no small part to cause chaos and near civil war. Their ideology was a sort of a warped shia taliban, frankly they *were fanatics* not really in keeping with the more moderate Iraqi interpretation of shia Islam.

    If the Mahdi Army had been truely loved and respected they wouldn't have collapsed so quickly after being confronted by the Iaqi Army.

    The people of Basra breathed a lot easier when that lot of fanatics were sent packing.

    Your point about the french resistance is not quite right, as the narrow majority of the french resistance were actually communists. A brave lot though, they held up an entire SS armoured divison in 1944 for days at a time, holding it in the south, away from the Allied beachhead in Normandy.

    Afghanistan:
    destroying the poppy crop is a mistake, the solution would be to give Afghanistan a Monopoly of the export of Diamorphine for use in pain killers in the US and UK. That is the perfect moral solution, damn the drug companies - make new laws if required!

    I am allowed to say Petraeous has won the Iraq war, because I won't have to answer to congress if trouble flared up again. The civilian politicians will never forgive him if that happened.

    He is a cautious man who can be trusted, so I take your point but its this caution that gives me confidence in his judgement of correct US troop levels for Iraq.

    No miracle is required in Afghanistan, just a steady increase in US troop levels to close the gaps between allied units. Thats allways the way insurgent wars are won, boots on the ground and a kind policy towards the civilan population.

    Again, electricity is the key, and the new Generator components have recently been delivered to the Hydro electric station. That will restore power to millions.

    As for World War I, you have a point there. The German war plan caused a general european war when it could have been limited to a Russian-German clash and a quicker peace treaty.

    However their is no schliefen plan in Afghanistan, and the only person who could get Pakistan against us is Obama with his weird idea of a Million to one against air raid hit on Osama.

    Talking to pashtun tribal leaders about coming over to the government side is inevitable. As soon as US forces increase, things will get easier, and the Taliban will be driven out of Afghanistan.

    Complain about this comment

  • 376. At 6:54pm on 25 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    A Palin Insurgency?

    "Four Republicans close to Palin said she has decided increasingly to disregard the advice of the former Bush aides tasked to handle her, creating occasionally tense situations as she travels the country with them. Those Palin supporters, inside the campaign and out, said Palin blames her handlers for a botched rollout and a tarnished public image — even as others in McCain's camp blame the pick of the relatively inexperienced Alaska governor, and her public performance, for McCain's decline.

    "She's lost confidence in most of the people on the plane," said a senior Republican who speaks to Palin, referring to her campaign jet. He said Palin had begun to "go rogue" in some of her public pronouncements and decisions.

    "I think she'd like to go more rogue," he said.

    The emergence of a Palin faction comes as Republicans gird for a battle over the future of their party...."
    It;s gonna be fun to watch the catfight following the election debacle!

    Peace and entertainment
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 377. At 6:58pm on 25 Oct 2008, Cassandra wrote:

    #366

    Did you really mean "sic" or did you misspell "sick"?

    (Kidding, kidding! No need to take an antacid.)

    Complain about this comment

  • 378. At 7:08pm on 25 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Bill and Exserviceman (and any others interested),

    My own personal favourite reports from Iraq have been from Hugh Sykes, who has an uncanny ability to get to the basic human situation.
    [removed third party link]
    From Our Own Correspondent

    and
    Hugh again

    and
    Iraq Postcard

    and
    World Service


    Just to be going on with. Talk about "the common touch"!!!

    Peace and Hugh Sykes
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 379. At 7:17pm on 25 Oct 2008, Cassandra wrote:

    There are studies which explain the apparent Rightist tactic to use fear in an attempt to gain compliance.

    It seems if you watch very small children and watch them interact with each other and their environment, you can observe that some are more adventurous and some more fearful.

    The hypothesis in the studies were that the fearful ones remain so throughout life and become (surprise!) conservative in their outlook. They attempt to exercise control over everything in their environment and sometimes overcompensate by becoming aggressive and/or identifying with powerful others like a government or the prevailing deity in their society.

    (Has anyone read Liddy's autobiography?)

    Complain about this comment

  • 380. At 7:21pm on 25 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    McCain's latest Hail Mary bomb comes equipped with a nuclear warhead.

    "McCain barreled through the door Joe Biden opened with his ill-advised comments about Obama being tested within the first six months of his presidency, flashing back to the Cuban Missile crisis and painting Obama as "untried, untested" and a national security liability.

    In contrast, McCain insisted, "I've been tested." Of course, the kind of test given a 26 year-old Navy pilot assigned to Cuban targets, as McCain was during October 1962, is very different from the test a president would face in that kind of crisis. But who needs to worry about details like that when you are playing the mushroom cloud card?

    With time running short, Team McCain wants to cover as many fear bases as possible. So along with the Missiles of October, the McCain campaign also rolled out a new round of robocalls designed to convince voters that Obama has "a disturbing history of coddling criminals" and would be soft on "sex offenders, drug dealers, and murderers." "
    "If the right one don't get you, then the left one will...." - Tennessee Ernie Ford

    Peace and desperation
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 381. At 7:26pm on 25 Oct 2008, Stephen Derry wrote:

    Re: 372 Isn't the FEC part of the left-wing liberal conspiracy? How else do you explain so many Democratic congressmen and senators being elected, year after year?

    We can add the FEC to the long list that already includes Democrats, Libertarians, Hollywood, every media outlet other than Fox News, every country outside the USA, the East Coast, the West Coast, blacks, Jews, Moslems, atheists, Darwinists, scientists, environmentalists, schoolteachers, union members, community organisers, immigrants, homosexuals and Justin Webb.

    (have I missed any out?)

    Complain about this comment

  • 382. At 7:43pm on 25 Oct 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

    I am just catching up with posts.

    T0#5Eightypercent

    Beautifully said! We do need a leader who seems steady, focused and in some kind of measured control of his thoughts and reactions. May I say that this person is not McCain.

    Complain about this comment

  • 383. At 7:46pm on 25 Oct 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#8Samtyler

    I must tell you that I think you must admire Michelle from afar. Champion her honor like the Knights of old. I doubt you can do any more than that.

    The Obamas seem to me to be very much in love with each other.

    Complain about this comment

  • 384. At 7:50pm on 25 Oct 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#380Edinglehart

    What else is new?

    The Republicans have used fear to control us for a long time. Why should they not resort to this when everything else they have tried has failed?

    I am not afraid!

    Complain about this comment

  • 385. At 7:57pm on 25 Oct 2008, SaintDominick wrote:

    Ref 381

    No, I think you did a pretty good job at expressing your opinion. The only thing I would suggest to make your posts more powerful would be changing your monicker to something like Grand Wizzard of the KKK.

    Complain about this comment

  • 386. At 8:00pm on 25 Oct 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    #381

    Stephen,

    You missed the French.

    Helpful Sam

    Complain about this comment

  • 387. At 8:10pm on 25 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    From SNL to the Senate?

    "The political climate this year is such that Franken -- best known for starring in an "SNL" skit in which his character stares into a mirror and attempts to reassure himself that, doggone it, people like him -- has pulled ahead in his Senate race against Republican Sen. Norm Coleman.

    Just weeks ago, Coleman appeared to be headed for victory, one of a handful of Republicans expected to win in a tough year for the GOP. But then a bad economy turned grim, the public's faith in Congress cratered, and support for Franken started to grow. The latest poll, a University of Wisconsin survey that came out Thursday, showed Franken ahead of Coleman 40 percent to 34 percent, his biggest lead of the race. Independent Dean Barkley was favored by 15 percent of those surveyed."
    Roll on November 5th!

    Peace and a sense of humour
    ed


    Complain about this comment

  • 388. At 8:31pm on 25 Oct 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    #381 StephenDerry:

    "Re: 372 Isn't the FEC part of the left-wing liberal conspiracy? How else do you explain so many Democratic congressmen and senators being elected, year after year?"

    Oh I don't expect mere evidence to change the mind of someone like Magickirin, I certainly don't expect him to admit he made a mistake. At best he will drop the topic and go off another rant about ACORN, the birth certificate, or William Ayres but if it prevents even one rambling nonsensical post I feel it was worth the effort.

    Complain about this comment

  • 389. At 8:56pm on 25 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Personell is Political

    "The prospects after November 4 for all of these competitors remain highly uncertain. One of the most consistent qualities of the Obama operation is that key players hold their cards close to the vest. From all outward appearances, Obama intends to make his appointments quickly and has reportedly already started the vetting process on 700 possible candidates for jobs at all top levels. Facing two wars and the threat of a brutal recession, Obama will have little leisure time after election day, when he will have to negotiate the tricky two-and-a-half-month transition process during which he will be the president-elect with an adversary still holding the powers of office."
    Reading the runes...

    Peace and Jobs
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 390. At 9:11pm on 25 Oct 2008, icetayoa wrote:

    #243..

    Yeah you are right. However, i was initially fooled into believing it was OBAMA!!!

    ha ha ha

    Complain about this comment

  • 391. At 9:23pm on 25 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    #286 "But it's the 'picture' that sells the story, isn't it? Like the American Marines wading ashore from landing craft on the seashore of Kossovo I saw on the American news channels once. Knowing that Kossovo was landlocked, and didn't have a seashore, I was a little puzzled by that.

    A friend of mine who was in a position to know told me that a) that took place in Greece at Thessalonika..."

    Obviously American servicemen landed in places other than Greece.

    So where did all those American servicemen land ? Croatia ? Montenegro ? Your "well placed sources" who are an expert on ALL military maneuvers should explain that to us.

    You need only explain "where". We understand "why" - to halt the most recent European genecide.

    When Europe was yet again unable to attend to its own affairs.

    Complain about this comment

  • 392. At 9:30pm on 25 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    #279

    276. DameMargaretThatcher wrote:
    Re#269:

    "When America sneezes - you all catch a cold."

    Yes, but this time the rest of the world has been busy developing ant-flu vaccines, but you obviously haven't noticed."

    =~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

    Actually, there's some things YOU obviously haven't noticed.

    Let's take a look at the "world's anti-flu vaccines" :

    The European stock markets have been hit far worse than the US.

    The British pound is getting HAMMERED by the US dollar, as is the euro.

    The Russian stock market has lost more than 60% of its value; the Ukrainian market has lost 80%.

    Middle Eastern markets have lost close to 50%.

    Please don't upbraid others for worn out cliches if you call THOSE performances "anti-flu vaccines".

    If worn out cliches are bad, british-ish, why do you use them ?

    Complain about this comment

  • 393. At 9:34pm on 25 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    More bad news (for Republicans)

    "With less than two weeks left in the presidential contest, Barack Obama continues to hold a commanding double-digit lead over John McCain according to the latest NEWSWEEK Poll. Among registered voters nationwide, Obama now leads McCain by 13 points, 53 percent to 40 percent. Among likely voters, Obama's lead is similarly strong, 53 percent to 41 percent.

    Obama's lead in the NEWSWEEK Poll is consistent with other recent national polls, including soundings taken by CBS News and The New York Times, The Washington Post and ABC News, NBC News and The Wall Street Journal and by Pew Research, all of which measured Obama's lead over McCain as somewhere between 10 and 14 points. In the NEWSWEEK Poll, Obama's lead stayed virtually unchanged from two weeks ago, when he led McCain 52 to 41 among registered voters....
    Peace and a fair wind
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 394. At 9:54pm on 25 Oct 2008, Yankeefreedom76 wrote:

    #2 scaredcat,

    With all due respect, I don't know why you (and Europeans) have such a warped view of Fox news here in America.

    I am an Independent and all I watch is Fox because they're the only ones I trust to give me both sides of the story.
    Ever watch Hannity and Colmes? Hannity is a rabid conservative , while Colmes is a rabid Liberal. But they have guests on every night from both sides of everything, not just politics.

    Show me another American station that does that. I admit ,they tend to be more Conservative, but they ALWAYS have someone on to represent the opposition.

    Like they say,"we report, you decide".

    Complain about this comment

  • 395. At 9:55pm on 25 Oct 2008, U12831485 wrote:

    375, exserviceman wrote:

    You make fair points really.

    _______

    I wished I could say that about your posting as well.
    Wearing a uniform really doesn't seem to enhance a person's intellect.

    Just a few things:

    - To my knowledge, Iraqi men in general don't own firearms, much less assault rifles. Nor is it legal.

    Maybe you are confusing Iraq - no matter what region - with some tribal areas in Afghanistan, where indeed every male is supposed to carry a rifle and won't be bothered because of it.

    If one can believe the media, 10s of thousands of Ak 47s have been delivered to the Anbar tribes and other groups, amongst other weaponry, prior to and during the 'surge'.

    - Please don't use abbreviations without explaination such as CLC ( Concerned Local Citizens ) outside military message boards, it's all lame civilians talking here.

    - So Al Quaeda big shots in Iraq are from someplace else - that's shocking !
    Of course they are foreigners, they wouldn't have lasted a week in Saddam country, if that .

    As for suicide bombers, aren't most of them locals ?
    The Mahdi Army, though funded by Iran, certainly are locals as well ?

    Besides, the latter didn't collaps, I understand they were called back by their leader - not without internal struggle, and not without causing a most embaressing situation for the new Iraqi security forces in Basra.

    Speaking of Basra, isn't that one the cities most opposed to the coalition forces, and was only spared the fate of Fallujah due to it being controlled by British troops ?

    How on earth would you know how Basra's citicens are breathing these days ?
    The Brits were sent packing, and it's the people who have to deal with that corrupt mess called the Iraq army now.

    - French resistance . Why is it that everyone wants to compare WW II to the current wars in the Middle East ?

    In both conflicts, you have armed fellows shooting at each other.
    That's were the similarities end.

    It's true 'La Resistance' , anything but a homogenous grouping, had lots of 'communist' leaning cells.
    But why even mention them ?

    They never were anything but a convenient provider of drop-off bases and safehouses for British intelligence.
    Didn't leave a dent in the German war machine, unlike other insurgent groups ( Ukraine, Jugoslavia, etc ).

    - WW I was originally a Russian-German 'clash'. Rrrrright...

    Do you have any idea what was going on between Russia and The Reich back then, and how the whole of Europe was involved ( with the US at the sidelines, coming a tad late to join the show, as usual ) ?

    - So Gen. Petraeus 'won' the Iraq war, eh ?
    I suggest you tell him, as he doesn't seem to be the same opinion.
    Then again, that little 'mission' had been 'accomplished' years ago, why not call it a win again ?

    It's just words.



    Complain about this comment

  • 396. At 10:07pm on 25 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    #151

    "All I can say, ricky78732, is that you must have been taught a very peculiar version of history at school...

    Do I have to apologise for those English ancestors of mine who were among the earliest followers of John Wesley and were against slavery?"

    Of course not. No one apologizes for something good.

    You were asked to apologize for the unspeakable crimes committed by YOUR nation before expecting apologies from others.

    Nice try. I suppose if I were in your position, I would desperately try to change the subject as well.

    The reality is this : No society has wreaked more havoc on the world than Europe in general and Britain in particular. For four hundred years, Europeans enslaved, subjugated, raped, and plundered all corners of the world.

    You "blame it all on America", and try to brush it all under the rug by ridiculing others ? Perhaps YOU were "taught a peculiar form of history" that bragged "the sun never sets on the British EMPIRE"... and tried to spin it as a GOOD thing !

    Odd that you would play the John Wesley card... after all, wasn't he one of those ignorant Christians you ridicule and deplore ?

    So instead of fomenting bigoted anti-American hate, take a look at YOUR human rights atrocities.

    Consider one of John Wesley's favorite punch lines - "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone" !

    Complain about this comment

  • 397. At 10:29pm on 25 Oct 2008, Yankeefreedom76 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 398. At 10:51pm on 25 Oct 2008, U12831485 wrote:

    305, ricky78732 wrote:

    Here's some questions for the world :

    Which continent has hosted the most genocide ?

    Which continent has exported the most genocide ?

    Which continent has committed the world's most recent genocide ?

    ______

    Kinda depends on which period in history you are refering to.

    Let's say 2nd half of 20th century, for the sake of discussion :


    1 : Eastern Europe and Asia, can't beat Stalin and Mao.
    Africa a close Third towards the end of the Millenium.

    The Middle East is trying hard, but they never managed to get above amateur status.
    The Brits tried to level the field by throwing Israel into the mix, but it never really caught on.

    I mean, terrorism, that's all you got ? Think big !

    2 : You can export Genocide ?
    Where to buy stock ?
    Anyways, I bite.

    That'd be the USSR and the USA, by proxy wars in Afrika (both), Middle and South America (mainly USA) or invasions in places like Vietnam (+ neighbouring countries), Afghanistan, not to mention smaller events like Panama, Iraq 1 , Tchetchenia, etc..

    All of which included some sort of organized warfare against indigenous people, aka Genocide .

    3 : That's an easy one, Afrika wins, hands down.
    Commiting Genocide is what they do, apart from playing football.

    Complain about this comment

  • 399. At 11:06pm on 25 Oct 2008, Stephen Derry wrote:

    uhhh... did I miss something? Which one of the candidates is running a pro-genocide ticket?

    Complain about this comment

  • 400. At 11:10pm on 25 Oct 2008, Robert Bennett wrote:

    #297

    I believe I understand the "RULES", but the rules are open to human interpretation. That can be WRONG, no one or group is perfect, not even the BBC. Then , correct me if I am wrong, but the way for ANYONE who does not like what you say has to do is to press---"complain about this comment" to remove it and have it moderated very closely. My fear and point is that real human cocerns are not able to be commented on, since there is a "hair trigger" responce to the very issues that need to be discussed the most. I didn't complain about my comment being taken down as much as what I see as a faulty methodology at work where, for lack of a better term, loyalist, conservative opinion is "complained"about often whilre outrageous, even false liberal claims are let get bye...it is my guess that so called coservatives are more open to frank talk, and seek truth--- than overly protective. again for lack of a better label, liberals. I say let adults says what we feel we need too, for every one "moderated" out of these comments because "someome" judges them to hurt the feelings of others, you attomatically hurt the feelings of someone else "moderated "out anyway. Finally, I appeal again to let people talk now before things get out of control and violent.

    Complain about this comment

  • 401. At 11:14pm on 25 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    238, Dame.

    "I have no problem with Reagan sending McCain to Pinochet as part of a commission....so what? It's a lot different to Obama (as president) sitting down with Achmadinajad without preconditions."

    It seems to me that what are called "preconditions" are part of what you are meeting about. Requiring any conditions ahead of time can only mean one of two things: (1) You have no intention of meeting and are looking for an excuse (a game Israel plays), or (2) You are playing at one-upmanship.

    Complain about this comment

  • 402. At 11:21pm on 25 Oct 2008, Yankeefreedom76 wrote:

    To the delight of most of you, I won't be posting here on BBC any more, nor will I be reading it.I can't deal with all the pure hatred I hear for America here. It's not that you disagree with us that bothers me. That's a right that many of us have lost ancestors fighting for.I just don't understand the vitriol and pure hatred I hear in most of your posts.

    Best of luck then.

    Complain about this comment

  • 403. At 11:22pm on 25 Oct 2008, U12831485 wrote:

    397, Yankeefreedom76 wrote:

    #395 u12834125(with the US at the sidelines, coming a tad late for the show as usual?Man you have a pair to say such a thing! Just more Euro ignorance and hatred.Might I remind you that both world wars were European wars!

    ____

    Last time I checked, both wars were called 'World War', and for a reason.

    As for ignorance, I suggest you do just a little research on why the US have chosen to get involved in both wars, and post war arrangements.

    The USA didn't do a thing without having their best interest in mind back then, if ever.
    Not blaming, just stating the obvious.
    The 'We saved the world card' just doesn't count any longer.

    For the record, I have a grandpa who was in Stalingrad - his release from POW camp was delayed a little, too, if you get my drift; and my parents - small kids back then - were shot at and bullied by GIs after the war ended several times.

    Point being, keep your war stories to yourself, who gives a damn.

    It's war, war sucks, what else does one need to know ?
    ___

    Darn, am I off-topic again ?



    Complain about this comment

  • 404. At 11:28pm on 25 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    245, Dame.

    "He (Obama) doesn't federally qualify as a minority as an African American because he's only 6.25% negro. He's 50% white. And although his father is from Kenya, his father's actually descended from Arab slave traders. (43.75%)"

    Not only are you hilarious, there is something wrong with you eyes. How Obama's father could be as black as he was, with only 12.5 per cent black blood, is one for the medical books. When all else fails, fella, use common sense.

    P.s. I don't know what this "federally qualify" is. On the 2000 census, you chose your race yourself. There were no qullifications.

    Complain about this comment

  • 405. At 11:41pm on 25 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    302, Ricky.

    "Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no impact on society" - Mark Twain

    "To paraphrase Twain, idiots have little or no impact on society - either positive or negative. They don't have the intelligence to cause much trouble"

    I don't think you understand Twain. Being Twain, he was making a humorous observation. If he meant more than that it would be that people were superficial in their judgments.

    Complain about this comment

  • 406. At 00:00am on 26 Oct 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    #383

    Aqua,

    That is all I desire. Happily married and staying that way.

    Faithful Sam

    Complain about this comment

  • 407. At 00:29am on 26 Oct 2008, PaulPieniezny wrote:

    The Philadelphie Daily News is reporting that the Berg vs Obama case has been dismissed - for ridiculous evidence and lack of standing. (http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20081025_Judge_rejects_Montco_lawyer_s_bid_to_have_Obama_removed_from_ballot.html )

    This Berg guy is quite a character - a few days ago, he actually climed on his website that Obama had confessed that he was born in Kenya. I also read the pdfs with the text of his suits, and was impressed by the lack of logic (he was using the 1995 version of Indonesian nationalization laws, when Soetoro and Obama's mother divorced in 1971) and the many grammar and spelling mistakes. He was referring to Barrack Obama as "the Obama" for goodness' sakes.

    I am not linking to his site (it can be googled easily enough), because obviously and rightly the BBC moderators would not allow it as outrageous or defamatory. To David Cunard: the reason why the BBC wants no links to these falsification claim sites is that the claim has indeed been proven false (see the Philly article). The only thing these specialists were able to prove was that the scan had been Photoshopped. The Obama campaign had decided to digitally erase the registration number, to stop possible identity theft.

    I know that a newspaper clipping (the one with Obama's birth announcement) does not constitute legal evidence but it does indicate that the claim "Obama was born in Kenya" is a conspiracy theory: all the announcements on that page are from Honolulu's Internal Records and there is no way that Barrack Obama's announcement could have been in an earlier edition of the paper. In order to claim that this too is false, you would have to think that the Obamas and Dunhams started this conspiracy to make Barrack Obama falsely eligible to the US presidency in 1961 - and started to bribe officals even then. Unfortunately for those who would believe that: the Dunhams were not particularly wealthy.

    Complain about this comment

  • 408. At 00:39am on 26 Oct 2008, Stephen Derry wrote:

    402: We don't hate America. We pity America, because we hate the neo-conservative evangelical right.

    Once you elect the liberal black dude, and stop invading people, we'll love you again.

    Complain about this comment

  • 409. At 01:15am on 26 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    Yankeefreedom76:

    "I just don't understand the vitriol and pure hatred I hear in most of your posts."

    I think it was you who referred to all Europeans as "You ungrateful Ba***ds!"?

    And a certain 'ricky' who continually accuses the British, and it seems, me personally, of (I gather) habitual genocide amidst a great many other things?

    Is this the sort of thing rwbennett refers to as "frank talk" from 'conservatives, by any chance?

    (By the way, I could be wrong, not having professed Christianity for some time, but I think it was Jesus who made that remark about throwing the first stone; not a John Wesley 'punchline' as it is rather bizarrely described. Now there, I readily admit, I fail to see the joke.)

    399. StephenDerry wrote:
    "uhhh... did I miss something? Which one of the candidates is running a pro-genocide ticket?"


    I think the 'right' believes the 'socialist left' is planning on exterminating rightwingers or something. Or maybe it's the other way round.

    It's just that one poster keeps bringing the subject up whether it's relevant or not so he can tell us yet again how he hates Europeans.

    Complain about this comment

  • 410. At 01:42am on 26 Oct 2008, Cassandra wrote:

    302
    "...idiots have little or no impact on society...."

    ?????

    Are you KIDDING?!? Without idiot followers, Marx would have been nothing but a footnote in history (if that). The same could be said of fighters in "holy" wars (oxymoron alert!) through the centuries.

    And (you'll have to decide for yourselves if this is relevent or a non sequiter): SOMEBODY must have voted for Bush.

    Complain about this comment

  • 411. At 01:58am on 26 Oct 2008, Stephen Derry wrote:

    Actually Marx's ideas were quite difficult and complex, and even today most people completely misunderstand them. Strictly speaking, the idiots were the ones who tried to follow him and got it hopelessly wrong (or allowed power hungry dictators to reinterpret him).

    Marx most certainly was not an idiot; an idealist perhaps but not an idiot. It's a shame everyone associates him with violence and tyranny rather than with fairness and equality. Compared with Jesus and Mohammed, who have similarly had "followers" commit atrocities in their names while completely trampling over the values they were trying to advocate, he's had a bad rap.

    Complain about this comment

  • 412. At 03:11am on 26 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    #411 "Actually Marx's ideas were quite difficult and complex, and even today most people completely misunderstand them."

    Agreed. Everyone should read "The Communist Manifesto".

    Only then can one appreciate the basic absurdity of his premises.

    Complain about this comment

  • 413. At 03:14am on 26 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    #411 "Marx most certainly was not an idiot; an idealist perhaps but not an idiot. "

    That is certainly true. He was quite bright ... in some areas.

    He was also hopelessly incompetent in most others. Among them, he was a personal financial nightmare. He ruined his own life and his long-suffering wife's life as well. He was financially dependent on Engels.

    What an irony... this man who portended to tell the world how to run its affairs could not mind his own.

    Complain about this comment

  • 414. At 03:17am on 26 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    #411 "It's a shame everyone associates him with violence and tyranny rather than with fairness and equality."

    It's a much deeper shame that a "classless society" is considered fair. It's not.

    The reality is some people are lazy slugs, while many others are dynamic, hard workers. Why should they have the same standard of living ?

    Equality of OPPORTUNITY is fair.
    Expectation of EQUAL ACHIEVEMENT is delusional.

    Complain about this comment

  • 415. At 03:20am on 26 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    398 "Which continent has hosted the most genocide ?

    Kinda depends on which period in history you are refering to.

    Let's say 2nd half of 20th century, for the sake of discussion :"

    Conveniently ignoring the first half of the 20th century. Which, of course, helps one ignore the awesome atrocities in Western Europe.

    Complain about this comment

  • 416. At 03:24am on 26 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    410 ""...idiots have little or no impact on society...."

    ?????

    Are you KIDDING?!? Without idiot followers, Marx would have been nothing but a footnote in history (if that). "

    I disagree.

    Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot...

    They were sick, they were misguided... but they weren't idiots.

    Hitler wasn't an idiot.

    Idiots have little or no impact on society. The worst problems in history were caused by "intellectuals". The worst of all were Marx and his disciples.

    Who were, in fact, atheists.

    Complain about this comment

  • 417. At 03:30am on 26 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    402 "To the delight of most of you, I won't be posting here on BBC any more, nor will I be reading it.I can't deal with all the pure hatred I hear for America here. It's not that you disagree with us that bothers me. That's a right that many of us have lost ancestors fighting for.I just don't understand the vitriol and pure hatred I hear in most of your posts."

    Oh, they're full of hate, all right. This is nothing new.

    That's the thrust of almost everything I've posted on this thread.

    They don't just hate America. They hate each other. That's part of why they destroyed each other in two World Wars.

    They hate others around the world. That's why they enslaved the entire planet for almost four centuries.

    They can't face themselves or their own history, nor the aftermath of their collapsed empires. Nor their history of intolerance and genocide - the worst of which happened long after their "Enlightenment".

    So they'll just keep stumbling around in the dark, blaming religion and America.

    Complain about this comment

  • 418. At 03:39am on 26 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    409 "(By the way, I could be wrong, not having professed Christianity for some time, but I think it was Jesus who made that remark about throwing the first stone; not a John Wesley 'punchline' as it is rather bizarrely described. Now there, I readily admit, I fail to see the joke.)"

    =~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

    C'mon, b-ish. You're stalling.

    Of course it was Jesus. I'm surprised the use of the word "punchline" would escape an "intellectual". It most certainly is a punchline... which can be in a story, not just a joke.

    I'm confident John Wesley passed that story on to many who listened and learned much from it.

    Complain about this comment

  • 419. At 03:50am on 26 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    411 "Compared with Jesus and Mohammed, who have similarly had "followers" commit atrocities in their names while completely trampling over the values they were trying to advocate, he's [Marx] had a bad rap."

    =~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

    And here we have the pivotal point.

    As an adult, Marx was an atheist. Funneling into his idea set, we see about a century of atheist "Enlightenment" thought, which had gained much strength by Marx's time.

    Most of Marx's associates were atheists, as were most of his followers . The Soviet Union was clearly State Sponsored Atheism. So was Mao's China.

    Those two atheists states murdered more people in less time than anything in human history.

    They were worse than Nazism.

    The truth is - in Marxism, ATHEISM HAD IT'S CHANCE. And it was the worst thing in world history.

    And yet "Enlightened" Europeans still blame religion for the problems of the world. In spite of their "Enlightened" secular states committing the worst genocides ever.

    I gather a deep hatred of religion is part of your indoctrination EXCUSE ME I'm sorry "education".

    One of the funniest things I've ever read was an New York Times article which began with "Europeans, weary of religious wars, ..."

    The wars you SHOULD be weary of are WW1, WW2, and the Cold War which were NOT religious wars.

    They had secular causes, and were waged by secular states.

    Odd that 411 sees Marx as getting a bad rap, but Jesus deserves condemnation !

    Unthinkable. Except for an "intellectual".

    Complain about this comment

  • 420. At 03:56am on 26 Oct 2008, Cassandra wrote:

    416

    You misunderstand. Those people you were talking about (Marx, etc) would have made NO impact on the rest of the world without the idiots who followed them.

    It takes idiot followers to carry out the plans of their leaders. No idiots, no damage, just the hot air of the uselessly ambitious.

    So the idiot followers are the real problem.

    As for how many monsters were atheists and how many were religious, I'm betting on the faithful. People who think they're "on God's side" can justify any behavior no matter how depraved.

    Complain about this comment

  • 421. At 04:07am on 26 Oct 2008, Cassandra wrote:

    P.S.

    Disagreement and hatred are two different things.

    "A hatred for America" is thrown at anyone who doesn't toe the far right party line.

    I certainly would have a distrust of any version of the country run by people who see dissent or disagreement as treason.

    If you're worried about a hatred of America, wouldn't membership in a secessionist group tell you more than mere words? Look up the AIP.

    Complain about this comment

  • 422. At 06:43am on 26 Oct 2008, TrueToo wrote:

    402 Yankeefreedom76

    To the delight of most of you, I won't be posting here on BBC any more, nor will I be reading it.I can't deal with all the pure hatred I hear for America here.

    I can understand that. In surfing the net I have come across a staggering amount of venom directed against America, particularly Christian America, by atheist "intelllectuals" of "enlightened" Europe.

    I happen to think that Americans are the most generous, warm-hearted and accomplished people on the planet. Yet they are being attacked with a viciousness that is quite extraordinary. In many instances, the BBC has joined in these attacks, in subtle and not so subtle ways. This blog is one example. The BBC's anti-Americanism even came to the notice of Tony Blair, who commented on it. Yet when it comes to countries like Iran, which richly deserve criticism, the BBC respectfully doffs its collective cap and produces timid, compliant articles on the terror regime in Tehran.

    Complain about this comment

  • 423. At 07:07am on 26 Oct 2008, TrueToo wrote:

    ricky78732,

    I agree totally with your comments. The concept of From each according to his ability; to each according to his need is one of the most absurd, idiotic and damaging philosophies to burden our overburdened planet.

    I know it didn't originate with Marx, but he latched onto it and propagated it. Apologists for communism justify its total failure with the excuse that the theory is too good for the people. On the contrary, people are too good for the theory.

    I tried to read Marx, but didn't get very far. I found his painfully engineered false constructs impossible to digest.

    Complain about this comment

  • 424. At 08:14am on 26 Oct 2008, malcolmd3111 wrote:

    #400 rwbennett "it is my guess that so called coservatives are more open to frank talk, and seek truth--- than overly protective. again for lack of a better label, liberals."

    Deep and meaningful dialogue transcends political dogma. If you are a seeker of Truth, you will be comfortable responding to my questions. I look forward to your responses.

    1. The current President stated, prior to the election that "He was a uniter, not a divider". Do you believe his actions were a reflection of his words?

    2. Do you believe that it is the role of elected officials and the President to make decisions for the good of the majority of the population?

    3. Do we have a responsibility to care for a) the Environment, b) the national debt, and c) the health of US residents?

    Your open and candid response is welcomed!

    Complain about this comment

  • 425. At 11:33am on 26 Oct 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    "423. At 08:07am on 26 Oct 2008, TrueToo wrote:
    ricky78732,

    I agree totally with your comments. The concept of From each according to his ability; to each according to his need is one of the most absurd, idiotic and damaging philosophies to burden our overburdened planet."

    Is it? What is so idiotic about it. From each according to his mother's abilities? To each according to the needs of his boss?


    "I tried to read Marx, but didn't get very far. I found his painfully engineered false constructs impossible to digest."

    Well if you havenot read Marx how can you claim to know what he says? As a deeply divisive figure relying on intrepretation only is highly dangerous.

    Complain about this comment

  • 426. At 11:43am on 26 Oct 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    "419. At 04:50am on 26 Oct 2008, ricky78732 wrote:


    And here we have the pivotal point.

    As an adult, Marx was an atheist. Funneling into his idea set, we see about a century of atheist "Enlightenment" thought, which had gained much strength by Marx's time."

    Most people in the west are irreligious in any meaningful way these days. Sorry.

    "Most of Marx's associates were atheists, as were most of his followers . The Soviet Union was clearly State Sponsored Atheism. So was Mao's China."

    Meaningless that doesn't mean everyone in the SU or CHina were "aetheists"

    What is known is that religion is dying on its feet in the west with fewer and fewer people bothering to worship. Indeed now guides are required to explain basic religious symbolism (ie the cruxifiction in some cases) in churches and galleries

    "Those two atheists states murdered more people in less time than anything in human history.

    They were worse than Nazism."

    Except that Stalin was an ex-seminarian who beleived with religious fervour and Hitler was an ex-catholic with reich bishops etc

    Both were inspired by religious models and used similar techniques ie the importance of confession and the punishment of non-beleivers.

    "The truth is - in Marxism, ATHEISM HAD IT'S CHANCE. And it was the worst thing in world history".

    No the truth is you do not know what you are talking about. Religion had its sway in the West for too long. People are now turning away from it and about time.

    "And yet "Enlightened" Europeans still blame religion for the problems of the world. In spite of their "Enlightened" secular states committing the worst genocides ever."

    Well the US performed a few genocides itself and how do you "grade" genocides" What's a comparatively good genocide?

    "I gather a deep hatred of religion is part of your indoctrination EXCUSE ME I'm sorry "education".

    One of the funniest things I've ever read was an New York Times article which began with "Europeans, weary of religious wars, ...""

    Glad you read keep it up

    "The wars you SHOULD be weary of are WW1, WW2, and the Cold War which were NOT religious wars."

    Didn't the US take part in all these wars?

    "They had secular causes, and were waged by secular states."

    So are you saying religious wars are OK?

    So much for Magdeburg (look it up)

    Religion is dying out get used to it

    Complain about this comment

  • 427. At 11:50am on 26 Oct 2008, Stephen Derry wrote:

    I feel I have to defend rationalism (in it's form of atheism) against the association with murderers and dictators - generally anything someone doesn't like can be associated with murderers and dictators who professed sympathy for it, it does not follow that it is a causative factor in their actions.

    History shows that there were just as many murderers and dictators prior to enlightened thinking, during the period when Catholicism was the only credible option in Europe, and various other religious orthodoxies at different times and locations.

    If anything it is industrialisation that allowed Stalin, Hitler and Mao to kill so many so effectively - in Stalin and Mao's case it was their actual motivation, to reform their peasant economy and make their nations into industrial powerhouses (today both are reaping the benefits of that policy - every cloud, huh!).

    Are you now going to condemn industrialisation because of its association with murderers and dictators (not to mention its current effects on global climate) and demand instant action to take apart the economy and return America to an agrarian society? Hmm, I thought not...

    I won't go into the irrationality behind religious belief much as I enjoy doing so, partly because it is so deeply entrenched in your society that it is futile, and partly because it will overshadow the points we are both trying to make, but I warn you now you will not get away with peddling the assumption that godless equates to lacking moral or ethical principles. You don't need a god to be good, and having a god does not preclude you from evil.

    Complain about this comment

  • 428. At 1:37pm on 26 Oct 2008, RomeStu wrote:

    #423 TrueToo wrote:

    ricky78732,
    I agree totally with your comments. The concept of ... "From each according to his ability; to each according to his need" ... is one of the most absurd, idiotic and damaging philosophies to burden our overburdened planet.
    I know it didn't originate with Marx, but he latched onto it and propagated it.


    Actually the concept of the haves helping the have nots seems to me a good synopsis of what Christian charity should be. What would Jesus do?

    Complain about this comment

  • 429. At 2:22pm on 26 Oct 2008, Robert Bennett wrote:

    I made appeals to allow loyalist, conservatives be able to talk as freely as liberals and internationalist socialists. LOKK at the reaction from my comments! If this is the kind of fairness Obama represents then the battle is on. Istill ask WHERE WAS OBAMA BORN? In America, this determins if he can legally run for President. And there are numerous solid reports of his Grandmother saying she was at his birth in Africa.
    The law suits will go on in America over this till the facts come out. Why would Obama try to hide such a obvious thing?
    The truth hurts!

    Complain about this comment

  • 430. At 2:43pm on 26 Oct 2008, Stephen Derry wrote:

    You can't hide something that is not true, nor can you admit it. You can only confirm that it is not true, and disprove it. Which Obama's campaign has.

    At least, to the satisfaction of everyone but rwbennett. I don't think it's realistic for the campaign to spend several hours (it may take longer) carefully explaining the truth to one sceptical individual, and taking him step by step through the evidence.

    If you don't believe them, don't vote for him.

    Case closed.

    Complain about this comment

  • 431. At 5:24pm on 26 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    #426 ""The wars you SHOULD be weary of are WW1, WW2, and the Cold War which were NOT religious wars."

    Didn't the US take part in all these wars?"

    =~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

    Yes. But we didn't CAUSE them.

    YOU DID.

    And you call your thinking RATIONAL ?

    What would have happened if the US had NOT stood up in those wars ? If the US hadn't sacrificed HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN LIVES on EUROPEAN BATTLEFIELDS ?

    Are you so delusional that you think the world would be a better place ? Are you so arrogant you believe you could have handled affairs yourself ?
    The reason we were involved is because you COULDN'T handle affairs. You failed.

    You're trying to change the subject. The reality is RELIGION DID NOT CAUSE THOSE WARS.

    PEOPLE CAUSED THOSE WARS.

    Which is true of ALL wars.

    It is so sad... the truth is you try to blame everything on religion not because the facts support it...

    ... but because you won't own up to YOUR role in the problem.

    Complain about this comment

  • 432. At 5:36pm on 26 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    427 "History shows that there were just as many murderers and dictators prior to enlightened thinking, during the period when Catholicism was the only credible option in Europe, and various other religious orthodoxies at different times and locations."

    =~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

    So horrible things happen WITH religion and even worse WITHOUT religion.

    Thus IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION.

    It has everything to do with Human Nature.

    Religion doesn't cause wars. People cause wars.

    99% of the time, religion is no worse than an innocent bystander.

    Interesting the double standard... interesting how only ONE side of the story completely RULES the "intellectual" discussion. "It's all because of religion."

    So much for being "inclusive of all the voices" !

    If there are multiple major causes to a complex issue such as the origins of WW1, some people can boil it all down to "10 words or less"...

    "It's all because of religion."

    Those people are not original thinkers. They are conformists, and take the easy way out. They rest in the comfort of their Echo Chamber, where everyone sounds alike.

    Here are two things you'll hear from the voices of cowards and conformists :

    "It's all the fault of religion."
    "It's all the fault of America."

    Complain about this comment

  • 433. At 5:53pm on 26 Oct 2008, Robert Bennett wrote:

    For all these "comment" insults that claim everything from my sanity to my truthfulness is off... TAKE A LOOK AT THE HUNREDS OF ARTICLES that state Obama's own Gradmother, claims she was at his birth in AFRICA. He is not a legal candiate for President of the United States. He was taken to Hawaii as an illegal ploy to commit fraud! Why? when it would be so simple for me to prove where and when I was born is Obama finding the TRITH so hard to come by? He appears to be illegal for TWO reasons, where he was born, Africa and the fact he was a Indonesian citizen, naturalized for years. Don't just call me names, seek the truth! In the USA the CONSTITUTION is the ultimate law--- Obama must live with this. The law suits continue all over America about his TRUE identity and will till the TRUTH comes out.

    Complain about this comment

  • 434. At 6:15pm on 26 Oct 2008, Sankari wrote:

    Post #147; ricky78732 wrote: "For 200 years, America has paid the price for Europe's slave trade".

    Wrong.

    For nearly 200 years, America willingly participated in Europe's slave trade and gorged herself on free labour. For nearly 200 years, America's economic and industrial growth was fuelled by the blood, sweat and tears of black slaves.

    The only price America paid for this was the civil war which finally brought slavery to an end and re-united the rebellious southern states with their more civilised northern counterparts.

    You know, there's one thing that's always bugged me. When the Founding Fathers signed the Declaration of Independence, did they feel ANY guilt as they read these words...?

    >>
    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
    >>

    Apparently not, for several of the Founding Fathers were slave-owners. (Hypocrisy much?)

    It gets worse: five of the Founding Fathers were illegal aliens: Pierce Butler; Thomas FitzSimmons; Alexander Hamilton; James McHenry; James Wilson.

    Their one redeeming grace is that none of them were Republicans...

    Complain about this comment

  • 435. At 6:24pm on 26 Oct 2008, Sankari wrote:

    Post #433; rwbennett wrote: "For all these "comment" insults that claim everything from my sanity to my truthfulness is off... TAKE A LOOK AT THE HUNREDS OF ARTICLES that state Obama's own Gradmother, claims she was at his birth in AFRICA".

    Why should we? None of them provide any evidence to support their claims. Every time I've checked one of these things, it's turned out to be a hasty pastiche of lies and half-truths.

    The BBC has interviewed Obama's African grandmother (here: [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]) and it's interesting that she never claims he was born in Kenya.

    On the contrary, she says that she met Obama's father while she was at university in Hawaii, and was with him there until after Obama's birth, when his father returned to Kenya.

    So she's actually saying the complete OPPOSITE of what you're claiming.

    The Hawaii Department of Health has stated that Obama was born in Hawaii (and let's face it, they should know!).

    So now we have Obama's African grandmother saying he was born in Hawaii, and the Hawaii Department of Health saying that he was born in Hawaii.

    That's good enough for me. Why isn't it good enough for you?

    Complain about this comment

  • 436. At 6:27pm on 26 Oct 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    "432. At 6:36pm on 26 Oct 2008, ricky78732 wrote:
    427 "History shows that there were just as many murderers and dictators prior to enlightened thinking, during the period when Catholicism was the only credible option in Europe, and various other religious orthodoxies at different times and locations."

    =~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

    So horrible things happen WITH religion and even worse WITHOUT religion.

    Thus IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION."

    Or religion has no effect on people's behaviour, so what is the point of it?

    "It has everything to do with Human Nature.

    Religion doesn't cause wars. People cause wars."

    But there is no religion without people. Or are monkey's buddhists?

    I think chickens might be catholics but the faith of Kangaroos is beyond me.

    "99% of the time, religion is no worse than an innocent bystander.

    Interesting the double standard... interesting how only ONE side of the story completely RULES the "intellectual" discussion. "It's all because of religion.""

    So its not about religion, even when the combatants say it is about religion.

    So much for being "inclusive of all the voices" !

    "If there are multiple major causes to a complex issue such as the origins of WW1, some people can boil it all down to "10 words or less"...

    "It's all because of religion."

    DOn't know anyone who says this

    "Those people are not original thinkers. They are conformists, and take the easy way out. They rest in the comfort of their Echo Chamber, where everyone sounds alike."

    Conformity is OK, you do beleive the Holocaust occurred don't you?

    And isn't religion all about conformity? Try telling the pope JC was a transvestite, he won't consider you a catholic

    "Here are two things you'll hear from the voices of cowards and conformists :

    "It's all the fault of religion."
    "It's all the fault of America."

    and

    Germs spread disease

    The world is round

    Complain about this comment

  • 437. At 6:28pm on 26 Oct 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 438. At 7:32pm on 26 Oct 2008, Robert Bennett wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 439. At 7:45pm on 26 Oct 2008, Stephen Derry wrote:

    433/rwbennett

    Take a look at the thousands of articles in the reputable media that state Obama was born in Hawaii... there is a good in-depth analysis of his backstory in today's UK Observer Online which states he was born in Hawaii and spent his first 7 years there.

    Your "hundreds" of articles are supposedly based on a claim by his grandmother. This could be fabricated, it could be a mistake, a misinterpretation or a misunderstanding, or she could be lying. The odds of the claim actually being true (and no-one but a few internet nuts reporting it) are so minimal as to be negligible.

    Obama has served in the Illinois State Senate, he has faced public scrutiny for several years, his birth certificate is available for review online - I think it's time to accept there is nothing in this story.

    Even if you are not insane and not lying and the story by some billion-to-one miracle happens to be factually true, no news media in the world believes it and nor do the Republican campaign.

    The burden of proof for such an unlikely claim is not on Obama, it is on you. I suggest you either find and present definitive proof, not hearsay but something that is totally 100% irrefutable, or drop it and try another line of attack.

    Complain about this comment

  • 440. At 8:16pm on 26 Oct 2008, Sankari wrote:

    Post #305; ricky78732 wrote: "Which continent has committed the world's most recent genocide ?"

    Africa.

    Rwanda, nineteen ninety-four.

    Educate yourself.

    Complain about this comment

  • 441. At 8:31pm on 26 Oct 2008, Cassandra wrote:

    Interesting endorsement statement from The Anchorage Daily News (Alaska):

    "Sen. Barack Obama, the Democratic nominee, brings far more promise to the office. In a time of grave economic crisis, he displays thoughtful analysis, enlists wise counsel and operates with a cool, steady hand. The same cannot be said of Sen. McCain."

    Oddball, off the mark charges (like birth certificate irregularities) that are based on the wishful thinking of extremists do not convince rational people. In a time of crisis, rational citizens demand an answering rationality from their President.











    Complain about this comment

  • 442. At 8:37pm on 26 Oct 2008, Cassandra wrote:

    440

    How about Darfur? 2008.



    Complain about this comment

  • 443. At 8:57pm on 26 Oct 2008, Sankari wrote:

    Post #419; ricky78732 wrote: "Funneling into his idea set, we see about a century of atheist "Enlightenment" thought".

    Wrong.

    Most of the Enlightenment thinkers were Deists and agnostics. Some were Theists. Many others were Christians.

    Leading voices of the Enlightenment include:

    Thomas Paine (Deist)
    François-Marie Arouet, aka Voltaire (Deist)
    Jean-Jacques Rousseau (Deist)
    Immanuel Kant (Deist)
    Blaise Pascal (Christian)
    Galileo Galilei (Christian)
    Gottfried Leibniz (Christian)
    George Berkeley (Christian)
    Isaac Newton (Christian)
    René Descartes (Christian)
    John Locke (Christian)

    To name just a few.

    Marx's writings are a novelty; they are not derivative, and have little in common (if anything) with Enlightenment philosophy.

    Complain about this comment

  • 444. At 9:19pm on 26 Oct 2008, Sankari wrote:

    Post #442; nessie1945 wrote: "440

    How about Darfur? 2008".

    I wanted to use this one, but apparently it doesn't meet the UN criteria for a genocide (see the article here: http://tinyurl.com/6xyl7a).

    Considering some of the responses we've been getting on this blog, I felt it was wiser to stick with an incontrovertible genocide.

    Complain about this comment

  • 445. At 10:43pm on 26 Oct 2008, TrueToo wrote:

    Communism destroys individual initiative. Hence it is bound to fail, every time.

    Complain about this comment

  • 446. At 11:47pm on 26 Oct 2008, Sankari wrote:

    Post #445; apropos of nothing, TrueToo wrote: "Communism destroys individual initiative. Hence it is bound to fail, every time".

    Relevance?

    None that I can see.

    Complain about this comment

  • 447. At 07:07am on 27 Oct 2008, Robert Bennett wrote:

    #439

    It is really a shame, but there is little "reputable" media left in America. Most American citizens
    gave up on our newpapers and TV long ago---see statistics. Just watch a few hours of the tripe on our TV and you will not want more, most citizens I know wonder where they even get these people? They do no represent America. I am not sure why ANY true crititism of Obama brings such angry PERSONAL attacks from the UK, I don't understand what you think your going to get from him. I believe he will ruin our traditional Anglo-American closeness first off. Then I have gone to university in England and visited a few times, we do not share the same trust in government for good reason. Lately politics in the USA are more like open racism and a civil war than things as usual. Another comment called me an "EXTREMIST" for even questioning Obama's real birthplace, another says he lived in Hawaii the frst years of his life---so what! the QUESTION remains where was he BORN? Not one comment touches on the FACT that to settle this whole issue---it would be very easy if nothing was hidden? There appears to be something wrong or Obama would just release details of his birth, education, and other records which he will not. Others react to my sincere question with charges or issues that are unrelated to his birthplace. SEE the numerous reports for the long lists of what Obama will not release, you can't even find his masters degee work? This election will not be over after November 4 now no matter who wins. There are too many unanswered questions about Obama. I am sure NOT a big supporter of John McCain because of his open border and amnesty support. But, John McCain is an honest man and an open book about his life and work---he is not going to hide from sincere, legal questions. I have even been critisized for using capital letters for emphasis---get ober it. Talk important issues, stop childish personal attacks. I would like to see more about the writers here, like education, race, religion and police records---many commets just don't sound right anymore.

    Complain about this comment

  • 448. At 07:17am on 27 Oct 2008, TrueToo wrote:

    Sankari, I was following the debate from my comment at no. 133. Problem is, this is the wrong thread. Sorry about that, I should have posted on the 'body language' thread.

    Some on that thread appear to think Marx is worthy of study and had valid theories. I happen to think that communism is one of the greatest evils ever to befall mankind. Stalin and Mao and Castro and the rest of the motley crew proved that without a shadow of a doubt.

    Complain about this comment

  • 449. At 07:55am on 27 Oct 2008, Sankari wrote:

    Post #448; TrueToo wrote: "Sankari, I was following the debate from my comment at no. 133. Problem is, this is the wrong thread. Sorry about that, I should have posted on the 'body language' thread".

    Now it makes sense! :)

    "Some on that thread appear to think Marx is worthy of study and had valid theories. I happen to think that communism is one of the greatest evils ever to befall mankind. Stalin and Mao and Castro and the rest of the motley crew proved that without a shadow of a doubt".

    Well, it's important to remember that Stalin, Mao and Castro never actually implemented communism in the first place; they imposed dictatorships and stole the people's wealth instead of redistributing it. Very little of what they did had anything to do with communism.

    I believe that communism and socialism are both impossible systems, just like that pie-in-the-sky crypto-anarchic nonsense called "libertarianism". You'll never get them to work because they require universal altruism (impossible), they don't provide sufficient checks and balances to prevent abuse, and their economic models are hopelessly inadequate.

    However, socialism does have a few redeeming features, and it is possible to apply some elements of socialism to mainstream capitalist democracies (and republics!) without descending into a Stalinist hell.

    Complain about this comment

  • 450. At 2:31pm on 27 Oct 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    ed would that be a rock hammer or a baby pick axe?;)

    Complain about this comment

  • 451. At 7:31pm on 27 Oct 2008, Stephen Derry wrote:

    Unbridled socialism, like unbridled capitalism or unbridled anything, is probably not a good idea.

    However as we have recently seen, [b]socialist principles[/b] can be applied selectively and effectively without bringing down civilisation as we know it. I wouldn't argue for an abolition of all capitalist principles, because many of them work quite well. Most of the time.

    If I had any influence, the one thing I would argue for is 100% death tax (subject to reasonable provision for dependents) because inheritance is inherently unfair and consolidates wealth amongst the privileged. The revenue this would generate would make other forms of taxation unnecessary (instead of taking a little bit of your wealth throughout your life, the government takes all of it at the end when you don't need it), and everyone would start from the same point (with the same universal education) and enjoy a standard of living they deserve through what they are able to earn for themselves, with the state having the resources to provide a very basic standard of living for those unable or unwilling to better themselves.

    But that's just a fleeting fancy, I cannot imagine such a logical idea will take off...

    Complain about this comment

  • 452. At 10:41pm on 27 Oct 2008, turningblueandgrey wrote:

    451

    George Washington set a precedent for inheritance that is neither no taxes nor no inhertance. He took pains to give many descendents somehting but not everyhting, enough to help but not a free ride for life.

    He thought that to give more would be corrupting.

    He also provided for his slaves and their freedom upon Martha's death, hoping that would be a precedent for his southern planter peers - so much for our attention to precedents anyway.

    Not allowing inheritance, as you outline above, would NEVER pass in the USA.

    However, Republican efforts to increase the already generous exemptions on inheritance taxes do seem a bit greedy.

    Complain about this comment

  • 453. At 11:12pm on 27 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    #434 "Post #147; ricky78732 wrote: "For 200 years, America has paid the price for Europe's slave trade".

    Wrong.

    For nearly 200 years, America willingly participated in Europe's slave trade and gorged herself on free labour. For nearly 200 years, America's economic and industrial growth was fuelled by the blood, sweat and tears of black slaves.

    =~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

    Not so. Here'sone little detail you have missed : Those 200 years you speak of were mostly before the Declaration of Independence.

    The people you speak of subjects of the British Crown, acting under British law.

    You're desperately flailing here.

    Time to admit it... there is only ONE REASON THERE WAS SLAVERY IN THE NEW WORLD, and 100% of the blame lies with Europeans, who introduced Slavery 150 years before the Declaration.

    To blame that on Americans, more 150 years before there was a US government, is absurd.

    Complain about this comment

  • 454. At 11:22pm on 27 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    #434 The only price America paid for this was the civil war which finally brought slavery to an end and re-united the rebellious southern states with their more civilised northern counterparts.

    =~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

    This is a very warped view of the death of 620,000 people.

    There was a very high price to pay both before the Civil War and after.

    In fact, the price is being paid to this day.

    The reality is this : Britain has caused enormous problems throughout the world, yet screams about a US "empire" !

    A fine job Britain has done cleaning up the mess you made worldwide !

    Britain created slavery in the new world, then left the mess behind for the US to clean up, then blames the ORIGIN of it all on the US !

    This is simply unreasonable. It has nothing to do with the facts in the case, and is simply defensive nationalistic, jingoistic PRIDE AND ARROGANCE... all the same things of which some accuse the US.

    Complain about this comment

  • 455. At 11:39pm on 27 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    434 "When the Founding Fathers signed the Declaration of Independence, did they feel ANY guilt as they read these words...?

    >>
    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
    >>

    Apparently not, for several of the Founding Fathers were slave-owners. (Hypocrisy much?)"

    =~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

    In all sincerity, may I recommend a book entitled "Team of Rivals". Among other things, it describes the reality of the pre-Civil War period, and the political difficulties which existed since before the Constitution.

    Perhaps then some will have some empathy for the convulsions caused by the slavery WHICH THE USA CLEARLY, OBVIOUSLY, AND IRREFUTABLY INHERITED FROM THE BRITISH.

    Did they feel any guilt ? It's clear they did.

    The political reality in the 1780s (and beyond) was this : in order to form a SINGLE nation, compromise along the lines of the slavery issue was mandatory. there was clearly no way the Southern states would have ratified the Constitution if it forbade slavery.

    Their strategy was to forbid slavery in as much of the new territory as possible. This resulted in the Northwest Ordinance of 1787 and the Missouri Compromise (among other things).

    Their strategy did in fact pay off. But it was utterly gut-wrenching. It's really inappropriate and inaccurate to say "the only price America paid was the Civil War". There's far more to it than that.

    Really... do check out "Team of Rivals". I think you'll find it very illuminating.

    Complain about this comment

  • 456. At 11:46pm on 27 Oct 2008, throwdown wrote:

    440 "Post #305; ricky78732 wrote: "Which continent has committed the world's most recent genocide ?"

    Africa.

    Rwanda, nineteen ninety-four.

    Educate yourself."

    =~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

    Wrong.

    Bosnia 1995.

    Educate yourself.

    And even the Rwandan nightmare has European colonial imperial fingerprints all over it.

    Perhaps most are well aware of the Belgian history there.

    Most are well aware of the devastation left throughout Africa after the period of European colonialism.

    But I'm sure someone will post up telling us how it was actually a good thing.

    If I may borrow a phrase ... "Hypocrisy much ?"

    Complain about this comment

  • 457. At 06:20am on 28 Oct 2008, turningblueandgrey wrote:

    "Team of Rivals" is a great book for 2 reasons: undertanding the long prelude to the Civil War and Lincoln's inclusive and intelligent governance, winning hearts and minds of almost all members of a diverse cabinet, while fully aware of a few member's continued machinations.

    That style of governance was promised by Bush but never delivered. It seems closer to Obama's nature - his many tributes to past Republican greats, and contacts made across the aisle. It does not resemble the winding up of core Republican voters, by Palin especially.

    For perspective leading up to Team of Rivals, try "His Excellency" a lifelong biography of Washington.

    Complain about this comment

  • 458. At 08:00am on 28 Oct 2008, TrueToo wrote:

    449 Sankari,

    Fair points but I'm not so sure they didn't implement communism to some degree at least. Take Cuba. If you reward the doctor and the engineer at pretty much the same low level as the street sweeper or shop assistant, you destroy initiative and stifle growth. Granted that means there is less wealth for the corrupt Castros to skim off the top but that means nothing to them, while the people remain in material, political and spiritual bondage.

    It could also be argued that communist systems can only be kept in place by dictators anyway since people rebel against whatever thwarts their natural inclination towards growth and prosperity.

    Complain about this comment

  • 459. At 4:27pm on 28 Oct 2008, turningblueandgrey wrote:

    457 - I 'll add that a book by a Canadian professor (Dorothy? McMillan, "Paris 1919" or similar) shows how the end of WWI presaged that are going on 90 years later.


    450's - Truetoo and others who want to debate communism, that's fine as long as you don't think it has any real bearing on the present USA election.

    Every, every "communist" state, starting with the Bolsheviks, has concentrated power and wealth among an inner party circle. This is done with ruthless means and impoverishing scope, that make the avarice of the least redeemed gilded age robber barons seem like boy scouts arguing over portions at a picnic. The transfer of wealth from poor workers to rich central party has always occurred under harsh totalitarian dictatorships.

    If there is any *remote* parallel to be drawn, it is to the fleecing of the American middle class over the last 8 years...

    I submit that the lack of civil liberties and civil rights, and totalitarian rule ('anti-liberalism') is the defining feature of both the world's modern communist dictatorships, and the Lenin/Stalin soviets, and the ultra-nationalist dictatorships fought at great cost of past wars.

    There are no Marxists among up to 6 USA ballot choices next week.

    Groucho, however, would have a field day with them.

    Complain about this comment

  • 460. At 4:28pm on 28 Oct 2008, U13633296 wrote:

    436 Simon it is not germs that spread disease but the impure thoughts of the evil doer unfree unpatriotic and morally bankrupt degenerate lefties.;)
    Where did you make up this word "Germs."


    As for round ,yes the world is round but only as is a dinner plate. I hope you're not one of those modern radicals suggesting a sphere . that's preposterous how would you stay on? what's to stop you falling off.

    Complain about this comment

  • 461. At 02:21am on 03 Nov 2008, NCPatriot wrote:

    Justin, just a minor pointer: Kansas City, incl. the downtown, is mostly in Missouri and not in Kansas. It is quite "urban" and so pro-Obama. So it is really not surprising.

    Complain about this comment

View these comments in RSS

BBC iD

Sign in

BBC navigation

BBC © 2014 The BBC is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.

This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.