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Tightening polls

Justin Webb | 08:31 UK time, Friday, 17 October 2008

Almost everyone agrees that the polls will tighten. There is also the chance of a terrorist attack. Some of the newly registered voters (not just Mickey Mouse) may well not turn up. And not all lefties are as cuddly as the main man.

As Obama himself said - New Hampshire!

Comments

  • 1. At 09:35am on 17 Oct 2008, endorfin wrote:

    Justin, are you doing that David Bowie cut-up-words-to-form-song-lyrics thing? Perhaps by sticking lots of random things on a page we might comment?

    Agreed, the polls will tighten. Agreed, there's (always) the possibility of a terrorist attack, ditto voters not turning up and yes, some people aren't very nice.

    But where's the point?

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  • 2. At 09:36am on 17 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    Isn't Pajamasmedia rather notorious ?

    Maybe a bit like directing Americans to a BNP site ?

    Naughty Mr. Webb.

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  • 3. At 09:44am on 17 Oct 2008, Parrisia wrote:

    Gallup.com measures three different voter group. In one of them "Likely-Voters-Traditional" the Obama lead is just 2%.

    BBC reports that Joe the Plumber is a fake. A registered republican without a plumber's licence, it has also surfaced that his name is not even Joe but Samuel.

    He has also acknowledged that he is also not even close to making $250k a year. What a shame that McCain should use a fake and (what is worse) a grossly populist example.

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  • 4. At 09:47am on 17 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    I think we can get an idea of Michelle Malkin's views from the fact that the first person in her sights is Paul Krugman - the American who only this week won the Nobel Prize for Economics. The fact that this award sent Marcus Arsenicus into a carpet-chewing rage made it all the sweeter.

    Anyway, as Michelle Malkin is considered to be a hardline version of Ann Coulter, I reckon that we can take your current post with a wee pinch of salt.

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  • 5. At 09:53am on 17 Oct 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    Maybe we should just cut and paste responses from last weekends 'McCain still win' blog, or the one from the week before that.
    I expect to see repeats on the TV but on the Blog? Sorry but I'll sit the rest of this one out.

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  • 6. At 09:53am on 17 Oct 2008, ChampionofFolk wrote:

    I have a bad feeling that November the 4th may be the most depressing night in living memory.

    Please don't tell us the truth Justin, just tell us that all is going to be wonderful and that Obama is going to win in brilliant fashion.

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  • 7. At 09:58am on 17 Oct 2008, superstar1066 wrote:

    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

  • 8. At 10:04am on 17 Oct 2008, gloriousToffeeapple wrote:

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  • 9. At 10:18am on 17 Oct 2008, Sankari wrote:

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  • 10. At 10:20am on 17 Oct 2008, olafpalme wrote:

    Just waiting for Nov.3 for the quadrannual Osama Bin Laden video endorsement of the Democrat candidate to appear on Al Jazeera. They could even call him a `fellow Muslim' for added effect to pander to their American (Christian) fundamentalist brothers! Hopefully, people will start to twig that its just reverse-psychology to maintain the eternal antagonist relationship and let McCain have his troops there for 100 years.
    Depressingly I doubt it. Fox News will headline it with a straight face.

    Perhaps Colin Powell is the back up. Might not see him unless they actually need some military endorsement to poo-poo Al-Quaeda.

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  • 11. At 10:23am on 17 Oct 2008, deschloro wrote:

    To be honest it's not like the polls have gotten closer, it's just Obama hasn't steamrollered to 15+points ahead and this shows that he has lost momentum and found his ceiling (rather than McCain getting a bounce)

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  • 12. At 10:23am on 17 Oct 2008, FlacidCasual wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 13. At 10:25am on 17 Oct 2008, ezekielthemack wrote:

    Justin,

    I think your "polls will tighten" comment is wishful thinking on your part to keep this story interesting. I'm going to assume that said comment was made with tongue firmly planted in cheek.

    Barring a miracle, it looks as though Barack is going to win this, which has been reflected by some bookies already paying out for presidential bets in the UK!

    If and when Colin Powell endorses Obama, McCain is going to be toast.

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  • 14. At 10:26am on 17 Oct 2008, Sankari wrote:

    "Ireland's biggest bookmaker said it would pay out more than 1 million euros ($1.95 million) on bets that Barack Obama will be the next US president, three weeks before the election.

    Dublin-based bookmaker Paddy Power said it made the "unprecedented decision" to pay on bets taken so far, following Wednesday's final campaign debate between Senator Obama and his Republican rival John McCain."

    Source: http://tinyurl.com/5h6r7n

    You know Obama is in with a chance when the bookies are paying out early...

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  • 15. At 10:27am on 17 Oct 2008, Greenshoots1 wrote:

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  • 17. At 10:32am on 17 Oct 2008, Byungmoon wrote:

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  • 18. At 10:34am on 17 Oct 2008, pithakos wrote:

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  • 19. At 10:37am on 17 Oct 2008, FinMember wrote:

    Who says the polls will tighten? What experts are you quoting? the opposite is probably truer. Obama's lead will continue to increase until November 4.

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  • 20. At 10:38am on 17 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    Far too many people parrot "and there may be a terrorist attack" (on the US, one presumes) assuming that the natural and correct inference to be drawn is that this would benefit the Republican candidate.

    Am I the only one to wonder if this would necessarily be the case? Logically, why should it be? Unless it was clearly performed by registered democrats?

    (I see that Iran, however, is preparing a new threat to world peace and stability that should be of concern to all Americans. See this news article on the BBC website.






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  • 21. At 10:43am on 17 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    14 (Sankari)

    Ah, the Irish to the rescue. Great. That's all sorted then. They can stop this appalling campaign, people can stop regurgitating the same prejudices on each side, and they can all go home and hibernate until January!

    Meanwhile, the rest of us can get on with important things like what to do about the financial structure of the world economy, the environment and global warming.

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  • 22. At 10:45am on 17 Oct 2008, icetayoa wrote:

    Whilst reading a fairly recent edition of THE ECONOMIST, I browsed through the job advertisement section. A common thread that ran through all the adverts were the following requirements in brief.

    1. PROVEN STRATEGIC THINKING, LEADERSHIP & MANAGEMENT SKILLS

    2. EXTENSIVE EXPERIENCE

    3. AN EXCELLENT TRACK RECORD.

    These are standard requirements when applying for a job in any organization. My question is simple. If the United States of America were a Corporation that was looking to hire a C.E.O to turn around its fortunes, will Obama’s CV/Resume make it past the screening stage? Will Obama be eligible for an Interview for the post of the C.E.O of United States Of America?

    If corporations demand these requirements as conditions precedent for job interviews, why do the MSM think the American voter is any different, and why do they think they do not demand these requirements from their next president??

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  • 23. At 10:53am on 17 Oct 2008, possumMurgatroyd wrote:

    #4

    who is Marcus Arsenicus?

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  • 24. At 11:15am on 17 Oct 2008, websitejunkie wrote:

    20. , British-ish wrote:

    I see that Iran, however, is preparing a new threat to world peace and stability that should be of concern to all Americans. See this news article on the BBC website.

    An OSMD (Ostrich Sandwich of Mass-destruction) Just what Fox needs to bolster the McCain campaign. The Oval Office is probably drawing up the invasion plans as we speak (Who will try and do the UN con job this time?).

    Will the British come up with another dodgy dossier ? 'This sandwich will turn into an omelette in 45 mins!.

    Will Marcus Arsenicus (do like the name a cross between Up Pompeii, and a porn film!), spout on how only Senator McCain – pre courier of oven chips – can stop this terrible attack?

    Drop in latter to find out!

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  • 25. At 11:17am on 17 Oct 2008, MarkB2 wrote:

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  • 26. At 11:20am on 17 Oct 2008, websitejunkie wrote:

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  • 27. At 11:26am on 17 Oct 2008, threshold7 wrote:

    Justin, you must be very busy. Me too.

    In order: true; true; true; what???

    We'll see what happens on Nov 4. If America elects McCain and Palin, that will be the end of America, and it will deserve it.

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  • 28. At 11:31am on 17 Oct 2008, brotherboaz wrote:

    Much has been made about the fact that there has been some abuse/ attempted fraud with regards to voter registration in the forthcoming US presidential election with the name Mickey Mouse being put forward as a prime example.

    If one would care to do a simple search of the US phone book (www.411.com)

    You can see that there are 24 genuine individuals with the name Mickey Mouse listed.

    Who is to say that none of them will turn up on Election Day and exercise their constitutional right to vote?

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  • 29. At 11:45am on 17 Oct 2008, SheffTim wrote:

    `Not all lefties are as cuddly as the main man.`

    Politics (and religion, relationships etc) inevitably arouses strong passions, including anger and hatred amongst a few, of all political stripes. Often leaders can be more pragmatic and dispassionate, whilst the further down the ranks you go, the stronger the emotions felt. Some people also have greater anger management issues than others. The same is as true in the UK as in the USA.

    I think the difference is that I haven`t seen Joe Bidden whipping up a crowd against McCain in the way that Palin did against Obama. (Credit to Mcain for his attempts to calm and reassure a Republican audience. Old style decency still exists in politics.) Whoever wins in November there will be strong feelings on both sides. Will it be Obama? I`m still not convinced he has it in the bag.

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  • 30. At 12:01pm on 17 Oct 2008, Mark wrote:

    The most accurate polls are usually those between 3 and six weeks out before the static of the final weeks set in and people answer what they think the pollsters want to hear rather than what they think. On that basis, Obama is likely to win by a 4-8% margin; more crucially, he's likely to get more than 320 ECVs making it a comprehensive victory. McCain may yet win Ohio and Indiana, but Virginia and Florida look well lost as do New Mexico and Iowa. The final ECV will depend on how West Virginia, Missouri, Colorado, Nevada and North Carolina fare, but it would be reasonable to bet that Obama will take 2-3 of them, whilst North Dakota, Georgia and Louisiana remain outside chances. None of these states is blue. And don't forget, just to turn the screw one twist tighter, Obama is now advertising in Kentucky which may cost the GOP Mitch McConnell's seat if nothing more.

    And, frankly, I don't think the terrorist thing is what it is cracked up to be anymore. It could equally remind people of what Bush failed to do (capture Bin Laden). It may strengthen the heartland vote, but frankly McCain does not need any more votes in Oklahoma, Idaho, and Utah: he needs them in Philadelphia.

    Further McCain is also at risk of imploding further. I doubt we've heard the last of Saarah Palin's troubles; whilst Joe the Plumber has turned out to be a fake and there are 19 days left for that message of duplicity to sink in.

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  • 31. At 12:10pm on 17 Oct 2008, clueduprock wrote:

    #27 threshold7

    "If America elects McCain and Palin, that will be the end of America, and it will deserve it."

    I can't help but agree. McCain the man may not be as bad as Bush the man - but add Sarah Palin and the base she represents and it's pretty scary. More to the point, it'll be the same party as was responsible for the last 8 years, McMaverick or not.

    The howls of rage and anger will be even louder if McCain takes it considering the last 8 years and last 2 elections.

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  • 32. At 12:15pm on 17 Oct 2008, Simon21 wrote:

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  • 33. At 12:19pm on 17 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    For those who've been away in the jungle, A resource worth perusing. Yes, the polls are "tightening", and the statistical chance of a McCain victory has increased from 4.9% to 5.3%....and McCain finally gives in to his deeply latent desires....

    ;-)
    ed

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  • 34. At 12:28pm on 17 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 23 ~ my little possum

    Marcus Arsenicus is a creature from one of the outer and darker planets who turns up on this site (and most other BBC sites) from time to time to have a rave at the BBC's expense.

    It used to upset all us gentle folk but we've got the measure of him now.

    Which leads me on to - there are an awful lot of moderated posts this morning. What have we all been saying then ?

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  • 35. At 12:34pm on 17 Oct 2008, SaintDominick wrote:

    The latest Gallup poll is disturbing, to put it mildly, but not surprising considering the level of intolerance that dominates a relatively large segment of our society. Obviously, we all have different priorities, values and aspirations, but I find it truly amazing that anyone would endorse an extension of the policies that resulted in the domestic and international calamities of the past 8 years.

    Regardless of how many times Sen. McCain says he is not George W. Bush, the fact is that not only did he admit he supported Bush over 90% of the time, but the proposals outlined in his website and those he has articulated throughout the campaign mirror the domestic and international policies of the party that has been in power during 20 out of the past 28 years.

    Although I find McCain's demeanor awkward, and his expressions of anger troublesome, what I find totally unacceptable are his policies which, if implemented, would doom the future of my children, friends, and neighbors forever.

    We need a POTUS with a clear vision of the future, one that has the stamina and clarity of mind to lead us through the difficult times ahead, a person who can remain calm under the most difficult circumstances, and one whose policies represent a different and more logical path to help us overcome the problems we are having. That man is Barack Obama.

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  • 36. At 12:45pm on 17 Oct 2008, AndyB1957 wrote:

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  • 37. At 12:51pm on 17 Oct 2008, Mark wrote:

    I've just been looking at Pollster.

    Powell is appearing on 'Meet the Press' on Sunday. That should be compelling viewing ...

    And the National Republican Senate Committee is pulling out of Colorado ...

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  • 38. At 12:52pm on 17 Oct 2008, threnodio wrote:

    "There is also the chance of a terrorist attack."

    Is this what you have been reduced to? There has been nothing for seven years since 9/11 and suddenly McCain has to magic up a terror nightmare in order to save the day? This is not the politics of the real world. It is ghoulish and perverse.

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  • 39. At 12:54pm on 17 Oct 2008, Candace9839 wrote:

    And perhaps the Alaska Independence Party will be mobilised. They had better start moving into position now - it's a long march to Washington and winter's coming.

    Of course it will depend on getting out the vote. It always does. Obama has energy and enthusiasm on his side and is sprinting for the finish line. McCain has rage and anger, and still no clear plan on how to fix the economy.

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  • 40. At 12:54pm on 17 Oct 2008, perfectSittard wrote:

    I am not sure why the readers of this blog have been directed to some obscure link littered with utter filth. Justin Webb you are much better than that.

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  • 41. At 12:55pm on 17 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    Domenick ~

    And what John McCain confirmed in the debate on Wednesday evening is that he still adheres to the concept of trickle down economics.

    When on earth did we first hear this policy ?
    Was it Reagan or GHB? One of them anyway.

    It hasn't worked, and has culminated in the financial car wreck of the last two weeks.

    What Barack is saying to us is "THERE HAS GOT TO BE A BETTER WAY OF DOING THINGS."

    If some folks want to stick to failure then that's their look out. I just hope that there are enough people who see that we have to move onwards and upwards.

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  • 42. At 1:04pm on 17 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    I'm sorry! I've just realised it was a simple typo when McCain promised to "Kick Obama's ears [anag]"! After all, the letters are right next to each other on the keyboard....

    ;O)
    ed

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  • 43. At 1:04pm on 17 Oct 2008, schranzo wrote:

    Finally!! I wish all the media stop being so mega sure that Obama will win. In elections the more a victory seems obvious, the more the undecided will just stay home or vote for the percieved loser.

    This is exactly what happened in my country 10 years ago when the party which no-one really wanted ended up winning just because absolutely no-one wanted the other party to end up with a big victory.

    The obama camp has to make sure everybody goes out to vote. No complacency!

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  • 44. At 1:05pm on 17 Oct 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    Point taken, Justin, that the militia on both
    sides are ill-behaved.

    But, you're missing the big story:

    We're no longer so divided on race as we
    are on other factors. The old economic
    model, built after WWII, of a manufacturing
    economy is on the verge of collapse, and
    we have to build a new model.

    The next president may face civil unrest
    and, if he is not careful, civil war. One of
    the candidates on the ballot is the wiser
    choice in this regard - I just don't know
    which one at this point.

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  • 45. At 1:07pm on 17 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    Ed : Thanks for putting up your holiday pic of the gargoyle outsde the cathedral.

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  • 46. At 1:07pm on 17 Oct 2008, vagueofgodalming wrote:

    The trouble with Joe the plumber is not that he's fake, but that his fakery is genuine. McCain isn't being duplicitous by taking him at face value, he's being honest in showing this repulsive individual as a poster child of the kind of person his campaign attracts.

    The British Conservative Party was saddled with the nickname of the 'nasty party' for several years after 1997 - I can see the same happening to the GOP.

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  • 47. At 1:16pm on 17 Oct 2008, Chiefy1724 wrote:

    Hmmm. Powell.

    Has there been any suggestion as to a possible Secretary of State or Secretary of Defence in the new administration ?

    Thing is, in a UK election, you almost always know in advance who the main players in the cabinet are going to be in the event of a win.

    Would Powell, as we would put it, cross the floor to lend his Military Muscle to an Obama/Biden cabinet as either SecState or SecDef?

    Would Condi Rice swallow her chances of being POTUS to stay at State for 4 to 8 - She seems to be one of the very very few (ie a select group of 1) from the current administration to be actually respected if not liked in the world outside.

    In either case, would our mythical Joe Sixpack see that as Obama getting uppity and "promoting his own" ?

    Fascinating days ahead.

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  • 48. At 1:19pm on 17 Oct 2008, PaulPieniezny wrote:

    Of course, McCain's team should have checked Joe the Plumber before they used him. But the worst part of the story came later in one of his interviews, and it has not been mentioned here yet, I think.

    When I think of tap dancing the first person who comes to my mind is not Sammy Davis Jr. , whom I mostly know as one of "those four maffia guys". So why does Joe, or rather Sam, mention the only black guy I know who "can (tap) dance a little"? (Interestingly, he DID mention Britney Spears who has been fredastaired as "cannot act, cannot sing, can dance a little")

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  • 49. At 1:20pm on 17 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:

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  • 50. At 1:20pm on 17 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

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  • 51. At 1:25pm on 17 Oct 2008, Candace9839 wrote:

    Let's try this one again...

    Of course it will depend on getting out the vote. It always does. Obama has energy and enthusiasm on his side and is sprinting for the finish line. McCain has rage and anger, and still no clear plan on how to fix the economy.

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  • 52. At 1:40pm on 17 Oct 2008, justcorbly wrote:

    Someone probably said something very similar to John Major in 1997.

    People here have lost confidence in the ability of conservatives to govern. We've lost faith in the conservative agenda.

    McCain's actions, beginning with the Palin selection, have increased the enthusiasm of a portion of the conservative base while driving away a larger number of less radicalized voters.

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  • 53. At 1:49pm on 17 Oct 2008, U7161659 wrote:

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  • 54. At 1:50pm on 17 Oct 2008, icetayoa wrote:

    I know John Mcain will be next president of the USA, my only fear is that i hope the Dems and Obama will have the grace to accept the election results.

    Spin cannot be equated with actual results. Obama and his ilk can spin as much as they want to,it is what it is, SPIN.

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  • 55. At 1:54pm on 17 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    McCain at his best, And Obama didn't do all that bad, either

    ""I was not born in a manger. I was actually born on Krypton. I was sent here by my father Jorel to save the planet Earth... Many of you know that I got my name from my father. "Barack" is Swahili for "That one." I got my middle name from somebody who obviously didn't realize I would run for president."

    "My greatest strength would be my humility. My greatest weakness is that it's possible I am too awesome.""
    Write-up of the dinner

    Just ordianary folks having dinner at the Waldorf (from where you can see the Russian Tea Rooms...)

    ;-)
    ed

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  • 56. At 1:57pm on 17 Oct 2008, Tramp wrote:

    Justin's right, all sorts of things might happen. For instance...

    - Putin's giant head might rear over Alaska
    - A video of the pole-dancing segment from Sarah Palin's beauty contest might appear on Youtube
    - McCain's head might literally explode in rage
    - Sarah Palin might visit Colombia (making it her fourth trip outside the US)
    - We discover that McCain was a terrible pilot who was only allowed to remain in the armed forces because of nepotism



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  • 57. At 2:02pm on 17 Oct 2008, icetayoa wrote:

    Everyone seems to be sold on Obama's composure, his ability to smile and act presidential..pleasee! the man didnt sufficiently tackle the questions posed to him, cos he was afraid that the answers he would give wont be what the American people would want to hear.

    his motto is simple and infantile. He stays silent, deflects criticism of his character by trying to link Mcain with Bush, whine about people linking him with ( TO QUOTE HIM, THAT DESPICABLE CHARACTER ) Ayers, then hopes to get a free ride to the White house. The man has no convictions.

    The few times he tried to show some conviction, he spewed out that nonsense about there was no one in this world that was pro-abortion!

    Unbelievable! I cant phantom a more dismissive answer to a serious issue like abortion.

    cant say i blame him.. he has a history of denying former mentors, friends and associates at a heartbeat, so he doesn't just get it.

    Obama, in his bid to distance himself from Ayer's said, and i quote 'THAT MAN WILL NOT BE ADVISING ME IN THE WHITE HOUSE',.

    BREAKING NEWS TO OBAMA AND HIS COHORTS - BUSH WILL NOT BE ADVISING MCAIN IN THE WHITE HOUSE TOO!!

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  • 58. At 2:05pm on 17 Oct 2008, secretnook wrote:

    Everyone seems to be sold on Obama's composure, his ability to smile and act presidential..pleasee! the man didnt sufficiently tackle the questions posed to him, cos he was afraid that the answers he would give wont be what the American people would want to hear.

    his motto is simple and infantile. He stays silent, deflects criticism of his character by trying to link Mcain with Bush, whine about people linking him with ( TO QUOTE HIM, THAT DESPICABLE CHARACTER ) Ayers, then hopes to get a free ride to the White house. The man has no convictions.

    The few times he tried to show some conviction, he spewed out that nonsense about there was no one in this world that was pro-abortion!

    Unbelievable! I cant phantom a more dismissive answer to a serious issue like abortion.

    cant say i blame him.. he has a history of denying former mentors, friends and associates at a heartbeat, so he doesn't just get it.

    Obama, in his bid to distance himself from Ayer's said, and i quote 'THAT MAN WILL NOT BE ADVISING ME IN THE WHITE HOUSE',.

    BREAKING NEWS TO OBAMA AND HIS COHORTS - BUSH WILL NOT BE ADVISING MCAIN IN THE WHITE HOUSE TOO!!

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  • 59. At 2:08pm on 17 Oct 2008, Xrubicon wrote:

    maybe mccain should have picked michelle malkin instead of palin

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  • 60. At 2:11pm on 17 Oct 2008, bakerbridge wrote:

    I don't believe Justin Webb wrote the Tightening polls entry. Will somebody please investigate what's going on and get the real JW back on the job.

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  • 61. At 2:12pm on 17 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    Go man Icey - just keep eating those beans.

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  • 62. At 2:13pm on 17 Oct 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    Irrespective of whether or not Joe is a real
    plumber, there is one phrase in the video
    clip of his interaction with Obama which
    is somewhat disturbing.

    Obama says at one point, "Spread the wealth
    around."

    This could either be a code word for an
    FDR-like "New Deal," or for Socialism.

    A notion that we have here which is perhaps
    peculiar to Europeans is that we don't want
    the government to decide how much money
    we can make, or how high up we can go.

    All in all, a very disturbing comment.

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  • 63. At 2:19pm on 17 Oct 2008, moderate_observer wrote:

    so the media has began to endorse obama?


    http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hr5hmYnjJMz50Swp8ech-tpt4zoAD93S0NH00

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  • 64. At 2:20pm on 17 Oct 2008, malcolmd3111 wrote:

    As gently as I can, I will keep reminding voters that, if it is a close race on Nov 4th, their is a chance that key states will have their numbers manipulated to force the result to go one way or the other. (Who does the system want to win?)

    I can't help but feel the the Electoral College system is outmoded and should be replaced by a system of he/she with the most votes wins.

    How it isn't a wider margin for Obama is surprising. How bad must it get to people to waken up? We need more scepticism and less blind faith.

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  • 65. At 2:22pm on 17 Oct 2008, phatGator wrote:

    Joe the plumber is not a fraud. Many people go by names other than their given name. He really is a plumber, and he aspires to own his own business some day. He does not need a license to work as a plumber in Toledo if he works under a Master Plumber. Outlying areas do not even require a license. So, there is nothing fraudulent about his situation.

    I find it interesting that the BBC did not go to the city of Toledo for an explanation, but to the Democratic-supporting union.

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  • 66. At 2:24pm on 17 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    What are people's problem with michelle Malkin?

    She is a conservative equvilent to Maureen Dowd.

    If you want to complain about hate mongers in the media start with Michael Savage on the right and Keith Obermann on the left.

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  • 67. At 2:28pm on 17 Oct 2008, Node801 wrote:

    You seem to use Pajamasmedia as a source quite a bit lately, but you do so without any commentary (or even noting the destination of the link such as in saying ("See this page from Pajamasmedia.") Do you really think that this stuff is in wide circulation, or does it matter that you are helping to circulate these images which are obviously extreme? Or course, too, one might ask whether there are not similar images attacking Obama (or statements at events, etc., that have not received enough attention, too.)
    And what is this bit of 1970s slang suppose to reference, Justin, my "main man"?

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  • 68. At 2:30pm on 17 Oct 2008, OldSouth wrote:

    Thank you, Justin, for shedding light to the wider readership.

    View his link, folks, and then recall John Lewis's race-baiting words, and judge for yourself.

    *****

    Now, about Joe The Plumber.

    He had a conversation with Barack Obama, and Mr. Obama was caught in the act of being Himself.

    Now, of the two people involved in that conversation, which one was running for President?

    Joe's not running for anything, anywhere, so why is the LeftPress spending its energies trying to take him apart?

    Perhaps, they wish to make him an object lesson: Question Himself, and Us, at your own risk! We'll turn your life inside out!

    When caught in the light of day, the Left always goes on the rampage(read the link Justin left us), and devotes its energies to changing the subject, and chatters endlessly in order to prevent the next question ever being asked.

    The issue isn't Joe's plumber's license--it's Barack's plans to remake the society in unimaginable ways.

    Barack Obama is the issue. He has based the entirety of his appeal to the voter on the premise that He Himself is The One who can lead us all into a new promised land.

    Therefore:

    His past and present associations are the issue. It's a long and disturbing list!

    His future intentions for this country are the issue, both on the economic front, and more importantly, on the cultural front.

    His veracity is the issue. Remember his early signed pledge to live within the limits of the Federal Election Commission? Holy Richard Nixon, Batman! Those of us who lived through the Watergate tragedy remember the unlimited campaign financing that fueled the fire that nearly burned our system of governance to the ground.

    Barack Himself Obama is the issue.

    And try as they might, the Left cannot change THAT subject!

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  • 69. At 2:32pm on 17 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    Never, never, ever choose the most popular after dinner speaker for your president.

    In the UK, if following the most popular after dinner speaker rules, we would have ended up with the much-loved late Tommy Cooper as Prime Minister.

    Hang on ..... maybe that would have been a good idea after all.

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  • 70. At 2:34pm on 17 Oct 2008, RedWhiteandermblue wrote:

    "he was afraid that the answers he would give wont be what the American people would want to hear. "

    Secretnook, both men are running for Santa Claus and Liar-in-Chief. Neither one is telling the American people anything close to the truth. This is unfortunate. What may be tragic is that both are telling us lies because their advisers say that telling the truth will make them lose--and they're very likely right.

    Here's just one truth, of the many neither one is telling us.

    We're spending 28% of our taxes to service our debt. This means we are making our children and grandchildren pay our bills. This is truly loathsome behavior and has to stop. We need to spend less, tax more or both.

    On who is the bigger liar: Obama says he'll have us energy-independent in 10 years. McCain says it will only take four. So on that index, McCain, the straight talk man, may be even more dishonest.

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  • 71. At 2:42pm on 17 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    G 'n R,

    "This could either be a code word for an
    FDR-like "New Deal," or for Socialism."
    It's called "re-distribution", and is indeed a concept of "social justice", or to the one-dimensional, "the left", but,
    "A notion that we have here which is perhaps
    peculiar to Europeans"
    I think you should check the use of "peculiar" here. I believe you might mean "strange", but that's not the proper meaning of the phrase "peculiar to" which more often means "exclusive to" or "restricted to"

    A quality peculiar to skunks is their odour.

    Ed the pedant

    P.S. If wealth isn't "spread around", it's worthless to everyone, including the wealthy.

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  • 72. At 2:44pm on 17 Oct 2008, SaintDominick wrote:

    Ref 62

    "A notion that we have here which is perhaps
    peculiar to Europeans is that we don't want
    the government to decide how much money
    we can make, or how high up we can go."

    Striving to be financially successful is one of the most basic characteristics of most Americans. Neither Obama nor anyone else is objecting to the pursuit of wealth, and are not proposing government interference in our ability to pursue our dreams; what he is advocating is the need for those who enjoy the privileges derived from being wealthy with their less fortunate fellow citizens.

    Most Americans don't own businesses worth over $250K, and we definitely don't come even close to making that amount, so why are people so concerned about the probability that the top 5% of our society may have to pay their fair share of taxes? Why should Exxon-Mobil make billions in profits every year and be allowed to use loopholes to avoid paying taxes? Why should a millionaire stop contributing to Social Security by the end of January when a teacher or secretary has to contribute to SS the entire year? The issue is not class warfare, but fairness.

    Forcing the likes of Gates or Buffet to pay a little more in taxes may prevent them from remodeling their yachts or corporate jets (I doubt it), and Joe the Plumber may not be able to replace the new SUV I saw in his driveway with a Hummer this year, but they will survive. The ones that are struggling are the ones who have lost their jobs, their houses, and milliones of retirees who are struggling to make ends meet. Maybe people should worry a bit less about impacts on the wealthiest segment of our population, and a little more on those who truly need help.

    While most of us encourage the pursuit of wealth, since many of us erroneously link that goal to happiness, we also believe in compassion and patriotism. The latter can be best represented, not by military service, but by caring for the well being of our fellow citizens and the domestic welfare of our country.

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  • 73. At 2:46pm on 17 Oct 2008, Sankari wrote:

    Post #62; gunsandreligion wrote: "Irrespective of whether or not Joe is a real plumber, there is one phrase in the video clip of his interaction with Obama which is somewhat disturbing.

    Obama says at one point, "Spread the wealth around."

    This could either be a code word for an FDR-like "New Deal," or for Socialism."

    Nonsense. Obama has already outlined his policies, and there is nothing vaguely socialist about them. If you want to know what he plans to do with the nation, read his economic poliy statement. Have you read it? I suspect not. You will find a copy here: http://tinyurl.com/683ocp

    Incidentally, 80% of America's top economists support Obama's economic policies (see the article here: http://tinyurl.com/3q5p9l). What does this mean? It means that Obama is on the right track, and it's not a socialist one.

    "A notion that we have here which is perhaps peculiar to Europeans is that we don't want the government to decide how much money we can make, or how high up we can go."

    Clearly you have no idea how Europeans think, because I can assure you that Europeans don't want the government to "decide how much money we can make, or how high up we can go", either.

    Incidentally, the term "peculiar to" means "unique to" or "belonging distinctly to"; so what you have actually said is that this notion is distinct to Europeans, when what you *really* meant was that Europeans would find it peculiar.

    Neither of which is true.

    "All in all, a very disturbing comment."

    No it's not. What's disturbing is the way you've projected an entire agenda into a single, harmless sentence - without a shred of evidence.

    Could you at least engage with Obama's policies instead of trying to put words into his mouth and inventing motivations that he doesn't actually have?

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  • 74. At 2:46pm on 17 Oct 2008, bk9061 wrote:

    62
    'All in all, a very disturbing comment'

    guns, i think the key difference on this side of the pond is about individualism and society. the stance is that no individaul can seperate himself from society, and that includes an individuals abitity to create wealth. The whole is greater than the sum of its constituant parts. So creating a society in which a large portion live without basic requirments (such as healthcare) is politically unsustainable and morally difficult to accept in rich countries. Captalism is a great system, at least the best system we have to enrich masses. But we should not treat it as a religon, more a means to an end.

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  • 75. At 2:47pm on 17 Oct 2008, squideyes wrote:

    #68 Old Mouth

    "devotes its energies to changing the subject, and chatters endlessly in order to prevent the next question ever being asked"

    Funny, that's what McPalin have done in every debate/debacle I have witnessed. Is that not GOP policy?

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  • 76. At 2:50pm on 17 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #65

    Why is the media going after Joe the Plumber? He is not running for anything? He did not launch a personal attack on Obama.

    As someone who is self employed (not a plumber) Obama's tax policy is an important issue for me.

    By the way this 95% is a false claim of tax cut. As 30%+ of the U.S citizens don't pay income taxes.

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  • 77. At 2:53pm on 17 Oct 2008, SaintDominick wrote:

    Ref 70

    "On who is the bigger liar: Obama says he'll have us energy-independent in 10 years. McCain says it will only take four. So on that index, McCain, the straight talk man, may be even more dishonest."

    I agree that McCain won the Pinnochio award on the issue of energy, but in fairness to both candidates what they proposed was independence from Saudi and Venezuelan oil imports, not energy independence.

    The distinction, which I am sure appeals to Joe the Plumber and Joe Six Pack, ignores the reality that reducing imports from those countries will most likely mean increasing imports from Canada, Mexico and Nigeria. Most importantly, it ignores the way oil is currently marketed, which makes it difficult to determine where that commodity actually comes from. Obviously, stopping imports from the Persian Gulf and Venezuela simply means those markets will have no alternative but to sell to countries like China, who will be delighted to accept our emotional and short-sighted gift.

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  • 78. At 2:55pm on 17 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Old South,

    "His past and present associations are the issue. It's a long and disturbing list!"
    Unlike McCain's, of course.
    "After weeks of hammering Barack Obama for having an association with a former Weather Undergound member, John McCain was asked Thursday afternoon about his own connections to a past felon: G. Gordon Liddy."Letterman Show
    Not to mention rabid "Christian" ranters and Keating et. al.....

    Glass houses and stones and such.

    Salaam, etc.
    ed

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  • 79. At 3:00pm on 17 Oct 2008, endorfin wrote:

    #68, OldSouth

    As I'm sure you realise, there's almost nothing you write that I agree with. Had I a vote in this election, it would go to Obama rather than McCain. I'm probably as dubious of McCain's credentials as you are of Obama's.

    I'm interested in one thing you said. I'd greatly appreciate it if you could you respond to this: "Barack's plans to remake the society in unimaginable ways".

    Clearly it's NOT unimaginable - there's obviously something there you're deeply worried about - but for the life of me I can't see what it is. He seems to me to be an intelligent, moderate, thoughtful and consensus-building man, but to you he's a dangerous individual. There's no point rehashing the Ayers/ACORN thing - what is it that you believe he'd actually do that's so wrong?

    Could you enlighten me?

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  • 80. At 3:08pm on 17 Oct 2008, Xrubicon wrote:

    I think we are not getting the real picture here. The fact is we cannot judge the candidates with just an watching a 1 hour debate. A debate or an interview cannot be compared to a four year term (well except for Palin's case). But it narrows down to this. Obama is still a question mark and McCain made a mistake in choosing miss popularity and appearing out of tricks in trying to keep up with the race

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  • 81. At 3:12pm on 17 Oct 2008, moderate_observer wrote:

    all this talk about socialism, does anyone believe that any politician is silly enough to actualy try to implement that in the united states? any congress, senate or president that tries to implement such policies would be condemned to the political wildernes for a very long time.

    The dems tried to pass a healthcare bill in the early 90s and it cost them the legislative branch of the government for 14 years.

    Dont worry, socialism wont happen, americans would reject it an anyone who proposes it swiftly. there is no real left wing in the US, just far right( gop) and moderate right(dems).



    ps. a 3% tax increase for the wealthy hardly amounts to anything social. if the financial situation is as bad as both candidates make it out to be, then they will have to raise taxes sometime in the next 4 years, and not just for the rich.

    no spending freeze or 3% raise on 2% of the pupulation is going to address this deficit.

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  • 82. At 3:14pm on 17 Oct 2008, Sankari wrote:

    Post #65; phatGator wrote: "Joe the plumber is not a fraud. Many people go by names other than their given name. He really is a plumber, and he aspires to own his own business some day. He does not need a license to work as a plumber in Toledo if he works under a Master Plumber. Outlying areas do not even require a license. So, there is nothing fraudulent about his situation.

    I find it interesting that the BBC did not go to the city of Toledo for an explanation, but to the Democratic-supporting union."

    If the BBC did go to the union asking for an explanation (did they actually do this?) it might have been because Joe (a registered Republican) claimed to be a union member.

    Thus:

    >>
    "I think he's looking for attention, and it's gonna bury him," said Tom Joseph, business manager for Local 50, said Thursday afternoon. "He's got himself into some serious problems with presenting himself as a bona fide plumber."

    According to Joseph, **Joe claimed on a social networking site to be a working union member and even used the pipefitters' insignia as a background.**

    ''He's never been a member of the union,'' Joseph said.

    When a reporter went to Wurzelbacher's door Thursday afternoon, he declined to answer questions. ''I don't want to stir things up again,'' he said.

    Turns out, Joe works for a small plumbing shop in Toledo that's on call for leaky pipes, running toilets and gas leaks; **but without licensing, he's years away from owning his own business -- legally, at least.**

    In fact, Joseph said, Joe isn't even supposed to work as a plumber in Toledo or the surrounding suburbs because he's not licensed under any of the local codes.

    ''Unless he's way out in the boonies working on some farmer's leaky pipes, he's not allowed to do any plumbing,'' Joseph said."
    >>

    From the article here: http://tinyurl.com/6leptm

    Joe's name is not an issue. He's is a fraud because:

    (a) he falsely claimed to be a plumber (he's not)
    (b) he falsely claimed to be a union member (he's not)
    (c) he falsely claimed to be considering the purchase of a $250-280k company (he's not; in fact, he doesn't even have the money to do this)
    (d) he falsely claimed that an Obama presidency would leave him worse off by "punishing" him for pursuing the "American dream" (it would not)
    (e) he is working illegally because he is not licensed for his trade

    This makes him a liar and a fraud.

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  • 83. At 3:17pm on 17 Oct 2008, Paddy Briggs wrote:

    Obama will surely get the Kerry vote = 48.3%

    Then there are the switchers from the Republicans who are disenchanted by Bush and see McCain as insufficiently different. Say 10% of those that voted for Bush = 5.1 %

    Then there are those who didn't vote last time but will this (manily blacks) Say another 2%

    So Obama has 55.4%. Now the unknown. Take off those who shy away because of Obama's race.

    That last factor is the key to the outcome and why it may be close. But the polls might not reflect that (closet prejudice not revealed to pollsters).

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  • 84. At 3:18pm on 17 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Warren says it's time to go shopping

    "A simple rule dictates my buying: Be fearful when others are greedy, and be greedy when others are fearful. And most certainly, fear is now widespread, gripping even seasoned investors. To be sure, investors are right to be wary of highly leveraged entities or businesses in weak competitive positions. But fears regarding the long-term prosperity of the nation’s many sound companies make no sense....
    I emphasize that I have no idea what the market will do in the short term. Nevertheless, I’ll follow the lead of a restaurant that opened in an empty bank building and then advertised: “Put your mouth where your money was.” Today my money and my mouth both say equities."
    I'm with the Sage of Omaha! Eat up!

    Yum!
    ed

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  • 85. At 3:19pm on 17 Oct 2008, websitejunkie wrote:

    74. bk9061 wrote:

    *I think the key difference on this side of the pond is about individualism and society. the stance is that no individaul can seperate himself from society, and that includes an individuals abitity to create wealth. The whole is greater than the sum of its constituant parts. *

    I agree wholeheartedly with the above notion - Thatcher once said there s no such thing as society, and how wrong was she with that!

    I think that what the whole 'New Labour,' project was about. Trying to find the third way option of a free market, with social responsibilty, ie community a decent health care system (don't care what McCain says, it damn better than what's in the states.) - Unfortuanatly it's failed, and so will the Tories version, and so I expect will the Obama version, the reason being that the modern capitalism, it based on greed, and one upmanship - if it wasn't we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.

    *Captalism is a great system, at least the best system we have to enrich masses. *

    At the present yes probaly, but only if the beast is controled. In the long run no. For any montery based system there has to be infinte resources, ie resources to make goods, generating the wealth, for people to buy stuff, which is pumped back in to find more resources to make goods... and the circle continues. Except the circle can't continue sooner or later we will have used up the resources, destroying the planet as an unintenional by product.


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  • 86. At 3:23pm on 17 Oct 2008, Candace9839 wrote:

    Re:#56. Or Letterman might ask McCain about G Gordon Liddy
    BBC Politics

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  • 87. At 3:25pm on 17 Oct 2008, SaintDominick wrote:

    According to a 2008 GAO report 55% of domestic corporations, and as many as 72% of foreign companies operating in the USA, do not pay taxes. ZIP.

    I don't know where the 30% of Americans that don't pay income taxes live or how they manage to avoid paying taxes; my retirement income is in the lower middle class range and I do pay taxes.

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  • 88. At 3:26pm on 17 Oct 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    If Obamas supporters at Acorn had their way, illegal aliens would all be voting. But it was McCain who wanted to give them a fast pass to become citizens. The FBI is investigating Acorn. When they get to Acorn's financeers, will the find Obama and his admitted $800,000 contribution for "voter registration" which was previously billed as being for lighting and site selection before the election? Will it matter to his supporters?

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  • 89. At 3:27pm on 17 Oct 2008, Candace9839 wrote:

    Just saw Ed's #78 on Liddy. Hypocrisy at best.

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  • 90. At 3:27pm on 17 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:


    ~ Magic ~

    "Why is everybody going after Joe the pumber ?"

    Good question - and nobody would have 'gone after him' if John McCain hadn't intoduced him into the debate on Wednesday evening. John McCain's reckless introduction of Joe was akin to his pick of Sarah Palin. He didn't wait for people to tell him that there was a downside to this person and that the downside might outweigh the original headlines.

    We have seen this in the UK when political parties have seized on one particular NHS story - which has proved, on investigation, to be far far muddier than the original headlines would have led us to believe.

    It looks from his body language as though Joe wants no more of it. He had better make that quite clear to John McCain who, going on recent past history, might nominate him for Vice President if Sarah Palin should fall by the waysde.

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  • 91. At 3:31pm on 17 Oct 2008, Candace9839 wrote:

    Re:#82 and he is a relative of Keating it turns out
    BBC Politics

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  • 92. At 3:31pm on 17 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    No Comment

    Peace

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  • 93. At 3:31pm on 17 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #77

    What McCain has said that in 4 years we could start getting resources from off shore reducing our dependence of gulf and Dictator Hugo's oil.

    In regard to Canada, I rather pay our Northern neighbor and have it shipped from the Alberta oil sands.

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  • 94. At 3:33pm on 17 Oct 2008, RalphMa wrote:

    Michelle Malkin? The one who thought internment of Japanese-Americans was a good idea? Not a credible source for assessing relative amounts of hate.

    Clarification of earlier comment: I suggested that Joe the Plumber isn't registered to vote. Actually he is invalidly registered per the Toledo Blade (the "u" in his name was replaced by an "o"). But I stand by the statement that he would come to regret his fame. In the YouTube age it simply doesn't pay to stand out like that.

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  • 95. At 3:33pm on 17 Oct 2008, frayedcat wrote:

    In event of a terrorist attack I would still find Obama the steadier hand -

    I think and hope the McCain age and Palin incompetency factors offset the race factor - I fear for this country if the GOP stays in

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  • 96. At 3:34pm on 17 Oct 2008, plonktrolls wrote:

    Rasmussen:

    On the issues, 40% now believe their taxes will go up if Obama is elected


    This must be from a Joe the Dumber polling sample!

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  • 97. At 3:38pm on 17 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    Possum

    A visitation # 88 from Marcus, an unusually subdued Marcus.

    Maybe he doesn't like us finding out about his misapproriation of BBC websites.

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  • 98. At 3:42pm on 17 Oct 2008, Sankari wrote:

    Post #76; MagicKirin wrote: "Why is the media going after Joe the Plumber? He is not running for anything? He did not launch a personal attack on Obama."

    The media is going after Joe the Plumber because Joe the Plumber is a liar and a fraud (see my earlier post, above).

    "As someone who is self employed (not a plumber) Obama's tax policy is an important issue for me."

    Are you making more than $250,000 per year? Simple question; simple answer: yes or no.

    If the answer is "Yes, I am earning more than $250,000 per year", you'll pay 3% more tax and barely notice it. If the answer is "No, I am earning less than $250,000 per year", you will be **better off.**

    Are you making more than $250,000 per year? Please give me your answer.

    "By the way this 95% is a false claim of tax cut. As 30%+ of the U.S citizens don't pay income taxes."

    Not quite. The Tax Policy Centre has said that 47 million American citizens will not be liable for any income taxes in 2009. This is does not mean that 30%+ of US citizens don't pay income taxes. It simply means that around 30% of US citizens will escape income tax liability next year.

    Bear in mind that plenty of those people will be rich guys who've got their lawyers working overtime to find every possible loophole.

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  • 99. At 3:46pm on 17 Oct 2008, squideyes wrote:

    websitejunkie,

    Can the capitalism "beast" be controlled though?

    With shareholders demanding an ever increasing bottom line the finite resources will of course run out.

    I re-read the opening few paragraphs (I'm gonna be shouted off the blog by a few GOP's here) of the communist manefesto and it pretty much describes the mess we are currently in and the reasons for it. I'm not saying we go commie, just that capitalism will likely be the source of the world's untimely demise and due to human greed we ignore the warnings.

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  • 100. At 3:46pm on 17 Oct 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    88. At 3:26pm on 17 Oct 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    If Obamas supporters at Acorn had their way, illegal aliens would all be voting. But it was McCain who wanted to give them a fast pass to become citizens. The FBI is investigating Acorn. When they get to Acorn's financeers, will the find Obama and his admitted $800,000 contribution for "voter registration" which was previously billed as being for lighting and site selection before the election? Will it matter to his supporters? "

    More importantly will it matter to the FBI, which investigates many things.

    Assuming an investigation automatically means guilt is like that old form of US justice, lynching

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  • 101. At 3:49pm on 17 Oct 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    "82. At 3:14pm on 17 Oct 2008, Sankari wrote:
    Post #65; phatGator wrote: "Joe the plumber is not a fraud. Many people go by names other than their given name. He really is a plumber, and he aspires to own his own business some day. He does not need a license to work as a plumber in Toledo if he works under a Master Plumber. Outlying areas do not even require a license. So, there is nothing fraudulent about his situation."

    This whole thing smells worse than a five day dead cat.His name does not appear to be Joe, he is not a plumber and he doesn't earn the requisite sum.

    It looks like another Sarah Palin moment for J McCain - shooting his mouth off before checking.

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  • 102. At 3:51pm on 17 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    More mates McCain hangs out with.

    "William Timmons, the Washington lobbyist who John McCain has named to head his presidential transition team, aided an influence effort on behalf of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein to ease international sanctions against his regime.

    The two lobbyists who Timmons worked closely with over a five year period on the lobbying campaign later either pleaded guilty to or were convicted of federal criminal charges that they had acted as unregistered agents of Saddam Hussein's government."
    Glass houses....

    Salaam, etc.
    ed


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  • 103. At 3:52pm on 17 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    # 92 ~ Ed ~ Pace

    Please open the link ~ 92 folks. If you've got to this site it means that you care.

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  • 104. At 4:00pm on 17 Oct 2008, cyrilcroydon wrote:

    Yesterday's polls were taken before the debate so we'll see what the newer ones come up with.

    Besides, it probably helps Obama if the race appears to be tightening. The last thing he needs is for his supporters to become complacent.

    Moderate Republicans and Right leaning Independents do not want the future of the party to be Sarah Palin and another dose of Rovian culture wars. That's what will happen if McCain wins.

    I suspect many of these moderates will stay at home on election day or even vote for Obama, so they can rebuild the party post-defeat and take it back from the neocons and religious fanatics.

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  • 105. At 4:03pm on 17 Oct 2008, websitejunkie wrote:

    OldSouth wrote:

    'The issue isn't Joe's plumber's license--it's Barack's plans to remake the society in unimaginable ways.'

    Oh my god the US is electing a commie!
    What unimaginable ways? Obama isn't even left. Centrist may be, but left certainly not.

    'When caught in the light of day, the Left always goes on the rampage(read the link Justin left us), and devotes its energies to changing the subject, and chatters endlessly in order to prevent the next question ever being asked.'

    Isn't that a bit pot calling kettle black?

    'His past and present associations are the issue. It's a long and disturbing list!'

    Would you like me to list all of the republican presidents past associations?
    Lets start with the Central American Juntas, Columbian death squads, Saddam Hussein, General Galitero, the Talaban, Bin Laden himself- the list is endless.

    'His future intentions for this country are the issue, both on the economic front, and more importantly, on the cultural front.'

    Economically, he can't do a worse job than the Bush administration (when Bush came to power, your country was in the black!) and what's he going to do on the cultural front? Ban crap Hollywood blockbusters? (that's a joke) Allow various cultural groups a bit more freedom? Where's the bad intentions in that? It will broaden and strengthen your culture.


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  • 106. At 4:09pm on 17 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #98

    It is none of your business what I or anyone else makes.

    And I not going to publish it on the internet.

    Self employed people already have a higher burden because we have to pay more of a Social Secuirty tax due to no emplyer contribution.

    Not the social secuirty is going to be around unless i is reformed.

    Who care if Joe is lying or not, he is not running for anything.

    I am more concerned about the lies of ACORN, Axelrod Soros and others who will affect things in the election and beyond.

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  • 107. At 4:12pm on 17 Oct 2008, phatGator wrote:

    #83 and 101:

    Many people in this country go by names, like Joe or Buck or Bubba, that are not there given names. There is nothing fraudulent about that. It's done all the time.

    Furthermore, you should read the BBC article about this: "According to Tony Herrera, of the Plumbers and Steamfitters Local 50 in Toledo, Ohio, Mr Wurzelbacher cannot practise in Toledo without a licence - although he can work for someone with a master's licence or in outlying areas that do not require a licence. "

    Joe DOES work as a plumber. It is not illegal. He is not a fraud.

    What smells like a dead cat is the elitism that slaps down any working class person that dares to have an idea. Joe is paying a price for daring to question the Annointed One.

    But as #68 Old South said, Joe is not the issue. Obama is the issue. His idea is to spread the wealth around. That means taking from those who earned the money and give it to those who did not earn it. But who he will take if from does not line up with who he says it will come from.

    Obama has said he will only raise taxes on the top 5%, and also only on those making >$250k. However, the IRS tax information for 2006 (download it at www.irs.gov) shows that those tax returns with adjusted gross income of $200k and above only accounted for 2.9% of the returns. So, to tax top 5% will require dipping even lower.

    The other fact Obama never mentions is that under the "Bush tax cuts for the rich" people earning $20k per year only pay HALF of the taxes they paid under Clinton.

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  • 108. At 4:18pm on 17 Oct 2008, RedWhiteandermblue wrote:

    "What McCain has said that in 4 years we could start getting resources from off shore reducing our dependence of gulf and Dictator Hugo's oil."

    MagicKirin, below is from the debate transcript.

    "Would each of you give us a number, a specific number of how much you believe we can reduce our foreign oil imports during your first term?...

    MCCAIN: I think we can, for all intents and purposes, eliminate our dependence on Middle Eastern oil and Venezuelan oil. Canadian oil is fine."

    To me, this implies McCain said we can achieve energy independence in four years.

    And the idea that either McCain or Obama isn't telling us, the little spoiled kiddies, all the lies they think we want to hear is mistaken.

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  • 109. At 4:24pm on 17 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    The Horror! The Horror!

    And a sideways look at it.

    Share and Enjoy!
    ed


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  • 110. At 4:26pm on 17 Oct 2008, websitejunkie wrote:


    99. , squideyes wrote:
    websitejunkie,

    Can the capitalism "beast" be controlled though?
    No of course not it will turn out to be an evil beast, what I really meant to say some of it's effects can be 'mitigated' in the short term, like pouring trillions into corrupt banks, (sorry I should have been much more clearer, I am proof reading my girlfriends Politics Doctorate, ironically on Marx and Communism. As long as I don't write Marcus Arsenicus in the middle the Trotsky section I am on!).
    Anyway back to the thread. This situation, gives us ample opportunity to devise a better system, but the 'developed world' won't take it, the same way they didn't take it when 'Communism,' (I'll use that term lightly, as the world has never had a proper Communist system) fell.

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  • 111. At 4:29pm on 17 Oct 2008, King_Dubious wrote:

    Tired of the mud slinging from both sides, fools abound in the United States, and to make 'news' of them is to be King_Foolish.

    The real trauma before us is picking the canidate based on the assumption they can do even a little of what they promise, will try even when they can't.

    Will they stay and remain the moderates they portray and stay in control of the Congress, not the other way around.

    Considering the level of education in the general populace that will vote, we are set to get the man that promises the most, to the poor, at the expense of the working, in the guise of taking from the rich with no regard for economics.

    The rich will add the cost of tax to the product bought by working and the poor, as the poor will purchase the products with the free money from Government that taken from rich and provided by the working.

    Allways the middle pays, when both parties favor the rich.

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  • 112. At 4:31pm on 17 Oct 2008, U12831485 wrote:

    103, eightypercent wrote:

    # 92 ~ Ed ~ Pace

    Please open the link ~ 92 folks. If you've got to this site it means that you care.

    ___

    Sorry pal, but this has no meaning whatsoever.

    If anything, it's belittleing the suffering of the hundreds of thousands of Iraq civilians killed and wounded in that utterly futile war, and all the victims of attacks in Europe and Asia as a result of it.

    None of which enjoy the privileges of that puppet in a uniform, who actually choose to go to war.

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  • 113. At 4:33pm on 17 Oct 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Simon21 #100

    McCain's best hope is first the indictment, then the election. How do you move the oval office to federal prison? What would conspiracy to commit voter fraud be, an impeachable offense? If it were, Joseph Kennedy and his friends in Chicago like Mayor Daley would have spent their last days locked up. But then even killing someone in a one car accident driving your car over a bridge into the water and abandoning your passenger to drown to death doesn't carry any penalties....if your name is Kennedy.

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  • 114. At 4:34pm on 17 Oct 2008, websitejunkie wrote:

    106. , MagicKirin wrote:


    I am more concerned about the lies of ACORN, Axelrod Soros and others who will affect things in the election and beyond.

    As I said earlier pot calling kettle black.

    Hands up who wants more GOP dirty deads - I've got a nice one on Tom Delay

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  • 115. At 4:36pm on 17 Oct 2008, middlecroony wrote:

    Some people realize that any type of extremeism is bad. The thing that gets me is why (leftists usually) when they protest have to paint themselves, dress in feathers, dance in a circle for hours, swear too much, or whatever it may be! People generally don't get what they're protesting because they can't get over thier silly behavior. What would really irk the right wing would be to dress appropriatly and speak clearly and consise about the issue at hand. Painting yourself green and making your head look like the globe for some environmental stand will only give way to ridicule. Can you imagine a protest of everyone in a suit marching now that would freak them out!!! Just a thought.

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  • 116. At 4:40pm on 17 Oct 2008, U12831485 wrote:

    62, gunsandreligion wrote:

    Obama says at one point, "Spread the wealth?around."??This could either be a code word for an?FDR-like "New Deal," or for Socialism.

    ________

    It's not some commie plot, it's how any society works, simple as that.

    Why do you think there are taxes in the first place ?

    Sorry Guns, but that is nonsense.

    _______

    Fritz Kraut

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  • 117. At 4:42pm on 17 Oct 2008, websitejunkie wrote:

    113. At 4:33pm on 17 Oct 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    McCain's best hope is first the indictment, then the election. How do you move the oval office to federal prison? What would conspiracy to commit voter fraud be, an impeachable offense? If it were, Joseph Kennedy and his friends in Chicago like Mayor Daley would have spent their last days locked up. But then even killing someone in a one car accident driving your car over a bridge into the water and abandoning your passenger to drown to death doesn't carry any penalties....if your name is Kennedy.

    How about sending your countries troops to fight in an illegal war?

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  • 118. At 4:43pm on 17 Oct 2008, OldSouth wrote:

    #79: Hello, endorfin.

    You ask an eminently fair question, and you appear to live in the UK, so forgive me if my assumption is mistaken.

    Here are my three broad concerns--Constitution, Economy, Culture. They overlap, but I'll try not to bore you as I explain.

    1. We are governed by a brilliantly written Constitution, which carefully and specifically separates the powers of government, specifically proscribes it powers, and specifically guarantees the rights of the states and citizenry.

    The 'Bill of Rights' so often referenced are actually the first ten amendments to the original document. They were added because the original group of individual states refused to ratify until those specific guarantees were in place, in ink--yea verily, in stone.

    That document, and those amendments, have made America possible.

    My concern is that Mr. Obama and his associates will further attempt to erode those proscriptions of governmental power, through his appointments to the Federal courts (not just the Supreme Court--every Federal court, from the local circuit on up) of highly activist judges who view the law through the lenses of social policy objectives, rather than the thoughtful deliberation of the clear intent of the framers of the Constitution. Let me hasten to add that right-wing ideologues are as dangerous as left-wing zealots. We need wise judges, scholarly men and women, who seek to preserve the freedoms and protections granted to both the states and individuals by the Constitution.

    The Democrats have made it very very clear that this is not their agenda, and BHO reiterated that in last week's debate.

    In addition, the power of the states will be eroded by the growth of the Federal government proposed by Obama and his party. This will further erode the increasingly fragile fabric of the United States.

    Tragically, we have lost our way in this Administration as well on this matter, so this is not a blanket endorsement of Republicans.
    Both sides have abused the Constitution, but I fear that Obama and company, left unchecked, will do much further grave damage to it, and to the free way of life it has created for us.

    I have more confidence that Sen. McCain(with his many shortcomings) will be a more effective guardian of the Constitution that makes everything else possible.

    2. We have had, up to this point, the freest and most productive economy in the history of the world. Things have gone terribly wrong, and it's everyone's fault, beginning with the guy who shaves my face every morning.

    That said, the Democrats have a long and tragic track record of distorting the economy via taxation and regulation policy, much of it driven by ideology only. BHO's comment about 'spreading the wealth', and Biden's claim that more taxes are needed as our patriotic duty are very troubling.

    For one example, we import oil, and export our capital, because Democrats and their environmental allies have choked off domestic production and transmission of most forms of energy. That has directly contributed to the economic tragedy, as well as the political and humanitarian tragedies of the past forty years. Given the opportunity to reverse course this summer, with oil at $140 per barrel, Nancy Pelosi adjourned the House, and departed on her book tour. She plumbed the depths of arrogance and irresponsibility, and not one soul in the Democrat party raised a murmur, beginning with The Nominee. She sold maybe 5000 books(?).

    The opinions I harbor about this Administration's governance of the economy could not pass the moderator's scrutiny, were they expressed. 'Reprehensible' should pass muster, though.

    Under BHO, we will continue to careen in the wrong direction, I fear. I have more hopes that McCain and company should be able to lead us back to a free market, where we recover our ability to create wealth within our own borders.

    3. Culture: A more amorphous subject, and I hope I haven't bored you.

    We as a culture are in deep trouble, and the economic and political woes we now experience are symptoms of the illness, not the cause.

    Not shielding any party from criticism here, beginning with the guy who shaves my face in the morning.

    In short, I think the US has become a deeply narcissistic society. I look at BHO, and see someone who embodies that narcissism, with his utter self-confidence, and his cold disdain of any and all who would stand in his way. I've worked with people like him, and they create chaos and ill-will at every turn.

    I look at those who endorse him, especially in the high reaches of the entertainment industry(a place I work a bit), the press, and academia(also familiar territory), and I am especially troubled.

    We need an antidote, not more of this soul-sickness.

    Mr. McCain, imperfect as he is, has spent his energies appealing to our better angels, not
    to our sense of entitlement and our resentments. I was moved when he took the mic away from that lady last week, and chided her publicly for her untrue assertions about Senator Obama. I was impressed last night that as he took his opponent apart at the dinner, the humor was always gentle, and his closing tribute to his Obama was heartfelt. He is not a good enough actor to dissemble on that matter.

    We will need that attitude at the top as we go forward, because we are in for a very tough sled for at least two to five years, on all fronts.

    We are at war, and we need someone with a long tradition of military experience behind him. He learned many things that can't be included in the Naval Academy syllabus, by growing up in his family, absorbing the history, hearing the tales that can't be published. We will need that wisdom going forward.

    And, finally, my family and I, through great trials and struggle, have achieved a happy life here in America, so far beyond our dreams that words fail to do justice. And, believe me, we are NOT wealthy, with our newest vehicle being the 2000 Dodge pickup truck. We have built this extraordinary life because we grew up and live in this extraordinary free nation. I fervently desire this for my own children and grandchildren, and for everyone else's children as well. The first priorities must be the preservation of freedom and the nurture of a healthy culture.
    On the long pull, attention to these two matters grow healthy economies, home by home, town by town, state by state. But freedom must first be preserved in order for all other blessings to flow.

    So, I hope I haven't bored you to tears. I hold a deep love for the UK, for reasons not rightly revealed here, and want my nation to be a blessing to yours, instead of the out-of-control drunken sibling we have become. You and yours are owed a serious, contrite apology from us for having put your economy, culture and constitution at terrible risk because of our irresponsibility. I hope Fall 2008 will mark the moment when we begin to sober up, and return to health.

    Thanks for your patience.

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  • 119. At 4:48pm on 17 Oct 2008, endorfin wrote:

    #113 Marcus

    You've posted this before.

    Are you seriously saying that Obama is committing voter fraud? Fair enough if that's what you mean, but don't you think the US authorities would be all over this if it were true? Don't you think that McCain's campaign would have reported him if there even a scintilla of truth to this allegation?

    But the Republicans haven't reported him. And the authorities have done nothing to arrest Obama either

    All of this means either:

    1) They're ALL - and by that I mean McCain, Palin, the GOP, the Government, the evil mainstream leftwing fascist media - in the pay of an evil communist dictator who is even now coming to steal your children and ruin the world for nice white folk

    or

    2) You're deluded

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  • 120. At 4:54pm on 17 Oct 2008, Sankari wrote:

    Post #106; MagicKirin wrote: "ref #98

    It is none of your business what I or anyone else makes.

    And I not going to publish it on the internet.

    "Self employed people already have a higher burden because we have to pay more of a Social Secuirty tax due to no emplyer contribution.

    Not the social secuirty is going to be around unless i is reformed."

    OK, I'll take this as "No, I am not earning more than $250,000 per year". Which means that you will *benefit* from Obama's tax cuts. Congratulations!

    I think you already know that you'd be better off under Obama; you just don't want to admit it.

    "Who care if Joe is lying or not, he is not running for anything."

    It matters because McCain is now using Joe in his election advertisements, and Joe claimed he would be worse off under Obama. In fact, Joe would *benefit* from Obama's tax plan.

    "I am more concerned about the lies of ACORN, Axelrod Soros and others who will affect things in the election and beyond."

    ACORN has been dealt with repeatedly; again and again and again. We keep posting the truth and you keep ignoring it.

    For an unbiased overview of the issues, read the Wikipedia article here: http://tinyurl.com/54o77a

    Thus:

    >>
    During investigations, ACORN has publicly supported the investigations of employees submitting fraudulent voter registration information, has fired them if evidence supports the charges, and has stated its concern with false information on registration forms. Officials have stated that ACORN has been cooperative in these investigations.
    >>

    The short version: ACORN found that some of its employees had broken voter registration rules. ACORN *fired these people* and *reported them to the authorities.* ACORN didn't lie about anything; in fact, they were the ones who told people that the dodgy stuff was going on.

    Incidentally, Axelrod Soros is one of the people who will be paying more tax if Obama wins the election. Joe the plumber is one of the people who will be paying LESS tax if Obama wins the election.

    Join the dots.

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  • 121. At 4:58pm on 17 Oct 2008, Chicoan wrote:

    Of course Michelle Malkin is going to take Paul Krugman's words, edit them for content and pass them off as a quote. To anyone who didn't read Paul Krugman's piece, he was taking the McCain campaign to task for not repudiating folks who call Obama a terrorist and who shout for his murder.

    Justin, this blog has gotten stupid. I know that you're not stupid, so I guess you must think we are.

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  • 122. At 5:01pm on 17 Oct 2008, dceilar wrote:

    #81 Moderate_Observer

    all this talk about socialism, does anyone believe that any politician is silly enough to actually try to implement that in the united states? any congress, senate or president that tries to implement such policies would be condemned to the political wilderness for a very long time.

    Judging that Bush and Paulson have partially Nationalized ALL the banks I would say that the US is already a Socialist State. The UK did not even partially Nationalise all their banks - just the ones in trouble! I think Americans need to be constantly reminded of this fact.

    I this is slightly off topic but, as that many US citizens have to pay for health insurance, does universal healthcare count as an effective tax cut or an extra burden?

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  • 123. At 5:08pm on 17 Oct 2008, Sankari wrote:

    Post #107; phatGator wrote: "Furthermore, you should read the BBC article about this: "According to Tony Herrera, of the Plumbers and Steamfitters Local 50 in Toledo, Ohio, Mr Wurzelbacher cannot practise in Toledo without a licence - although he can work for someone with a master's licence or in outlying areas that do not require a licence. ""

    Correct. However, according to Tom Joseph (business manager for Local 50):

    >>
    Joe isn't even supposed to work as a plumber in Toledo or the surrounding suburbs because he's not licensed under any of the local codes.
    >>

    See the article here: http://tinyurl.com/6leptm

    "Joe DOES work as a plumber. It is not illegal. He is not a fraud."

    Wrong. He does work as a plumber and it IS illegal, because he is not licensed. That's straight from the Local 50 group; your own source.

    "What smells like a dead cat is the elitism that slaps down any working class person that dares to have an idea."

    *snip*

    Balderdash. Joe is paying the price for being a liar and a fraud. Obama wants to give a tax cut to working class people AND YOU'RE COMPLAINING?

    Why? You don't want working class people to get a tax cut? Joe would *benefit* from Obama's policy, but you think this is a BAD THING?

    "Obama is the issue. His idea is to spread the wealth around. That means taking from those who earned the money and give it to those who did not earn it."

    Nonsense. We have been through this already. Obama is planning to give TAX CUTS to WORKING PEOPLE. This doesn't mean taking money from people who have earned it and giving it to people who haven't earned it; this means RETURNING money to people who EARNED IT AND PAID THEIR TAXES.

    I honestly can't put this in simpler language. You cannot possibly fail to understand what I am saying here. I have deliberately used capital letters so that it is easier to read.

    I have also made these points before. Nobody - *NOBODY* - has actually countered my points. Nobody. They have been studiously ignored.

    "Obama has said he will only raise taxes on the top 5%, and also only on those making >$250k."

    *snip*

    We've been through this already. Read the thread.

    "The other fact Obama never mentions is that under the "Bush tax cuts for the rich" people earning $20k per year only pay HALF of the taxes they paid under Clinton."

    He doesn't mention it because it's irrelevant. Bush isn't running, and neither is Clinton.

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  • 124. At 5:12pm on 17 Oct 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    I think that you guys who criticized my last
    comment have missed the point. It's not
    that I don't believe that some or all of the
    tax cuts for the wealthy that Bush enacted
    should be rolled back. I do.

    The problem is the rationale that Obama
    presented when challenged. Actions usually
    speak louder than words, but in this case,
    words speak louder than actions.

    As far as the Obama plan is concerned,
    it is disconcertingly vague. It does say that
    the R and D tax credit should be made permanent;
    I agree with that, that will help keep jobs
    here. But, what it doesn't say is, how will
    that credit be calculated. There are two
    ways of calculating it, one which is hopelessly
    too complex for any but the largest of
    companies to use, and a simpler method.

    Right now, I don't know if they are referring
    to the simpler method. I have heard that
    Obama want to eliminate the simpler
    method, but this might just be propaganda
    from the other side.

    Then we come to their definition of "small
    companies and start-ups." That isn't
    defined anywhere.

    Corporate tax law, which is what I'm
    concerned with here, is fairly complex,
    and details are everything. None of the
    details are in the plan.

    The real issue is, how are we going to
    compete in the global economy? Keeping
    companies and their operations here is
    critical to providing jobs for the middle
    class. I would rather see jobs created
    for the middle class than some gimmicky
    tax cut. Redistributing income does
    not address the core of the problem,
    which is that we need to increase savings,
    investment (including public investment),
    and income, especially for the middle class.

    The public entitlement programs which
    we have cannot fulfull this role; only
    employment and a way for individuals
    to save for retirement can do that.

    I do like the generalities of Obama's
    plan, but I've been around the block
    enough times to know that generalities
    don't make things work.

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  • 125. At 5:12pm on 17 Oct 2008, moderate_observer wrote:

    here is a pretty detailed article about Obama's career/rise in washington. for anyone who has the time or patience to read the entire article.

    may make you like him more, or like him less.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/16/AR2008101604277.html



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  • 126. At 5:14pm on 17 Oct 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    To the BBC blog maintainence crew:

    there seems to be a problem entering
    an ampersand, a filter in the system
    believes it to be bad HTML.

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  • 127. At 5:14pm on 17 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Old South,

    "I have more confidence that Sen. McCain(with his many shortcomings) will be a more effective guardian of the Constitution that makes everything else possible."
    I see little evidence to support such a touching faith, none at all. I see a man whose life has apparently spent pursuing his own advantage at every opportunity, but then I am a bit jaded and cynical.
    "For one example, we import oil, and export our capital, because Democrats and their environmental allies have choked off domestic production and transmission of most forms of energy."
    I rather think it has more to do with being 5% of the Earth's people and consuming over 25% of the energy. This is not to excuse the rest of the "Developed World", who (when added to the USA) constitute 20% of the population consuming 80%
    of the unsustainable harvest.

    Some self-restraint and belt-tightening is in order, if we are to survive. And, (dare I say it?) a little spreading of the wealth.
    "XXI. What leads to peace is not violence but peaceableness, which is not passivity, but an alert, informed, practiced, and active state of being. We should recognize that while we have extravagantly subsidized the means of war, we have almost totally neglected the ways of peaceableness. We have, for example, several national military academies, but not one peace academy. We have ignored the teachings and the examples of Christ, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and other peaceable leaders. And here we have an inescapable duty to notice also that war is profitable, whereas the means of peaceableness, being cheap or free, make no money.

    XXII. The key to peaceableness is continuous practice. It is wrong to suppose that we can exploit and impoverish the poorer countries, while arming them and instructing them in the newest means of war, and then reasonably expect them to be peaceable.
    ...
    XXVII. The first thing we must begin to teach our children (and learn ourselves) is that we cannot spend and consume endlessly. We have got to learn to save and conserve. We do need a "new economy", but one that is founded on thrift and care, on saving and conserving, not on excess and waste. An economy based on waste is inherently and hopelessly violent, and war is its inevitable by-product. We need a peaceable economy."Thoughts in the presence of fear
    And, today, there are 219,000 more humans needing feeding than yesterday. Just how long do we reckon we can keep breeding at that rate?
    "Ravish capacity: reap consequences.
    Man claims the first a duty and calls what follows Tragedy.
    Insult -- Backlash. Not even the universe can break
    This primal link. Who, then, has the power
    To put an end to tragedy? Only those who recognize
    Hubris in themselves."


    Peace
    ed



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  • 128. At 5:14pm on 17 Oct 2008, 1european wrote:

    #72: Excellent! Especially your observation that many foolishly believe that financial wealth brings happiness. It does not... but most people die before realizing that, because they die worn out trying to get wealthy.

    As for the narrowing polls, I am a staunch Obama admirer, for the simple but crucial reason that he (and Biden) are clearly more intelligent than the other side. But BEWARE: intelligence has never really counted in the US elections (look at the last two!). And in that respect, one must acknowledge that McCain did have a few good shots lately. Not the Ayers embarrasing nonsense of course, but "I’m not GW", and "No mam [he’s not an Arab]" and, yes, "Joe the Plumber". All are trivialities... but ones that do not require much thinking - that, is, ones that may well be efficient with the average US voter.

    PLEASE, no complacency: four years ago, the ABB camp (Anything But Bush) were certain they’ve got it made, too!

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  • 129. At 5:17pm on 17 Oct 2008, bluepaddy13 wrote:

    BBC reports that Joe the Plumber is a fake. A registered republican without a plumber's license, it has also surfaced that his name is not even Joe but Samuel.

    He has also acknowledged that he is also not even close to making $250k a year. What a shame that McCain should use a fake and (what is worse) a grossly populist example.

    WRONG, firstly the guy NEVER claimed he was already making that money HE said he wanted to buy the small business to bring in that amount, secondly it is totally irrelevant if he has a license or not, THE POINTS he raises about Obama’s taxing plans are the POINT, and yet he is under more investigation by the press than Obama is ! it’s a pathetic state of affairs, Joe the Plumber is not running for President, and his name is Joe, The BBC is just regurgitating liberal media smears against Joe.

    The guy is NOT fake if the POINT he raises about Obama is TRUE, typical liberal smear attacks to try and destroy the messenger when they should be concentrating on the MESSAGE

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  • 130. At 5:30pm on 17 Oct 2008, pbacot wrote:

    Oh come on. You can dig up anything on the web, Justin. What next, some Rush Limbaugh links?

    There' s difference when the candidates are whipping up the hatred at their rallies.

    I wouldn't give this filth the time you've obviously put into it, but who has the most right to be angry? Those who have been right (correct) since 2000, or those who have been systematically tearing this country down?

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  • 131. At 5:31pm on 17 Oct 2008, endorfin wrote:

    #118

    OldSouth

    Thanks for that; cogent, well-argued, and the clearest setting out of the Republican concerns with the Democratic ticket I've seen on these blogs. I disagree with much of what you say, unsurprisingly, but I can see your concerns. And no, I wasn't bored.

    Where I think we have common ground is that McCain is a decent man, someone who believes in America and will do his best for it. Unfortunately we disagree in his ability to deliver; I see him as being unduly influenced by the Christian Right, whose policies I find distasteful in many areas.

    I'll not answer point by point, though I hope you'll allow a few observations

    1) As a Brit, I'm used to having no written constitution. We accept that the law has to change as society does, and can't see quite the fascination with a very old document, and what was in the minds of the framers of the Constitution. In the same way as the Bible seems to be reinterpreted to suit every belief, so too does the American constitution. As an outsider, the most important element of your Constitution was the separation of Church and State. Not sure that's really happened, has it? Religion seems central to US politics in a way which is absolute anathema to the average British voter, even though, ironically, we have an official religion.

    2) With Obama, where you see arrogance I see calm determination. With McCain you see a focussed soldier but I see a rather tired and testy old man. Were he to be a genuine military leader - Colin Powell for example - then I might agree with your assessment of him, but McCain worries me. In the UK we have a terms for people like this - the "passed-over majors" - who aspired to the highest commands but were never good enough. To serve is one thing, to lead quite another.

    3) America is at war, agreed, but although there are physical wars in Iraq and Afghanistan the bigger wars are at home, and they're economic rather than military. An old soldier is not the right person for times such as these, in my opinion. As a passing comment, the Chairman of my organisation is an ex-military officer who attained a higher rank (in the UK) than did Sen. McCain. Sadly, he is also the most hopeless individual - in a business sense - that it's ever been my misfortune to work under.

    4) America has a significant cultural problem, again agreed. But what I can't see is why more of the same will make things better. To my mind America needs a period of adjusting to the 21st century, of learning to get on a little better with the world. McCain might be OK with a younger and more progressive VP to swing the ticket to the centre, to lead the way forward in an inclusive manner; with Palin he's decisively signalled a lurch to the right that I think is destructive in the extreme.

    5) The way in which you conduct yourself is critical, whether as a private citizen or in public life. To my mind the way the McCain campaign has been run is shameful, and if this presages what a McCain presidency would look like, I have worries about the unimaginable consequences.

    It's not so much about McCain himself; as I've said, he seems like a good man doing his best, and even though I'm not sure that's good enough, I think he'd in any case be better than Bush. My bigger fear is that he might die in office or for health reasons need to step down, leading to President Palin. Without any hyperbole, the thought of SP as a world leader scares me.

    Let's see what the next few weeks hold; both candidates have to prove themselves worthy, and it's still close enough that slip-ups by either candidate could swing it.

    Whichever way it goes, half of America will be deeply worried on Inauguration Day......

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  • 132. At 5:31pm on 17 Oct 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    #55, Ed, thanks for posting that, they were
    both in fine form.

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  • 133. At 5:36pm on 17 Oct 2008, turningblueandgrey wrote:

    118, OldSouth

    I would think a staunch defender of the Bill of Rights would be more concerned about the Bush & Republican Patriot Act, wiretapping, etc. erosion of our rights and privacy, than Obama's possible few judicial appointments. At least that would make sense if the issue really were protecting our rights rather than working more to restrict the ones you don't like.

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  • 134. At 5:37pm on 17 Oct 2008, obama4me wrote:

    To #58 Secretnook:

    "Unbelievable! I can't phantom a more dismissive answer to a serious question"

    I guess you meant fathom......

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  • 135. At 5:37pm on 17 Oct 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    40 actually he's not.

    2 years of obama getting everything thrown at him. Not just hate of Obama but racist crap as well. Now when people are saying ENOUGH the NAZI .

    Bush DID THINGS TO GET HATED.

    He started a war and lied people died, lots of them.

    That's why some want him dead.


    Justin would have us think that the words of peace from Obama are somehow connected to the RAGE people feel at having the country taken up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y46k-1-tElY&feature=related crick .


    That the shouts of "KILL HIM" to a person that has only talked of trying to unite, is the same as people saying Palin is a witch for trying to incite this rage and Violence.


    Justin again you are the most pathetic piece of journalist in america on the level of Fox.

    you bias despite rights calls of " Liberal" are surely the most right and consistent with your $50 bet on Mccain's win.


    Justin the Moraless and Mostly Erronious and the Gherkin.

    Really justin look back audit your comments so far. Right from the start of the primaries.

    Someone will one day and a paper will be written in a school of hacks , it will include be on the topic of "How the BBC most bias reporter will do everything he can to promote the right:) way of thinking.

    Strange thing about america is how many RIGHT WING Brits move here.
    Most of those Brits I have met here moved because it was more to the right.
    they move not because it represents freedom but because it represents lack of having to care for others.
    (eg.Justins health care stance)
    they don't like paying taxes for others to benefit.
    they like the fact that the melting pot has so many less ingredients in it.

    Justin you should retire.
    Like your friend Nobel floridian and his pretend liking of Hillary.



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  • 136. At 5:55pm on 17 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:



    HOORAH! HOORAH! HOORAH!

    for Sankiri at# 123.

    I haven't a clue who you are, Sankiri, but I like the way you think.



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  • 137. At 5:55pm on 17 Oct 2008, RedWhiteandermblue wrote:

    The most bulletproof testimony I can imagine to Obama's character and past is that his opponents have only tried to attack people and groups he's been associated with, not Obama himself.

    It's striking how consistently the Republicans have used the "throw enough mud.." tactic, and how successful they've been with it. It's also striking how the bad things that McCain (Keating 5) and Palin (ethics violation) themselves have done have not been mentioned in the Obama ads I've seen.

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  • 138. At 5:57pm on 17 Oct 2008, newbriton wrote:

    #118

    Despite your attempts to project a balanced and reasoned point of view you are horribly deluded and your delusions lead you inextricably to the wrong conclusions. You're right, the out of control free market strategies pursued by the current administration have led to disaster, not only for the US but for other countries. Cut to the chase, if you want a change dump your emotional and sentimental feelings for an old man who was unfortunate enough to suffer as a POW. The record tells us he was a bad pilot, and if he were anyone else his wings would have been clipped before he crashed his aircraft over Hanoi. His POW experience does NOT qualify him to be commander in chief.

    McCain has voted to support the Bush administration over 90% of the time. If you feel so strongly about freedom, recognize that we have all been duped for the last eight years by a president and an administration willing to lie, shred the Constitution and spy on their own citizens. A McCain presidency guarantees a continuation of all that.

    None of us have the luxury of voting for the perfect candidate who represents a panacea for all this country's ills, but take the blinkers off and look at the situation objectively not with the sentimental tear clouded eyes you appear to have.

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  • 139. At 5:59pm on 17 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    G 'n R,

    "The real issue is, how are we going to
    compete in the global economy?"
    I thought you and I were agreed that our best hope lay in the total collapse of The Global Economy (N.B Capitalisation as (false) Diety)
    "As a deity the economy is a sort of egotistical French monarch, for it apparently can see no alternative to itself except chaos, and perhaps that is its chief weakness. For, of course, chaos is not the only alternative to it. A better alternative is a better economy. But we will not conceive the possibility of a better economy, and therefore will not begin to change, until we quit deifying the present one." -- Wendell Berry in "A Continuous Harmony"
    Our wish seems to be coming true.

    Peace
    ed

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  • 140. At 6:08pm on 17 Oct 2008, Sankari wrote:

    Post #129; bluepaddy13 wrote: "WRONG, firstly the guy NEVER claimed he was already making that money HE said he wanted to buy the small business to bring in that amount"

    You are correct, but the problem is that he's not even making enough money to buy the business. So his big talk about deciding whether or not he should buy it in the first place, is nothing but hot air. The man is an empty blowhard.

    He's also a liar and a fraud.

    "secondly it is totally irrelevant if he has a license or not"

    No it's not. He claimed to be a plumber, and he claimed that he was condidering the purchase of a $250,000 business. It has since transpired that he is not a licensed plumber, and he does not have the money to purchase a $250,000 business (unless he somehow qualifies for the grand-daddy of all loans, which in the present financial climate is extremely unlikely).

    Both of these points are crucial to the entire debate about his significance in the electoral campaign.

    "THE POINTS he raises about Obama?s taxing plans are the POINT, and yet he is under more investigation by the press than Obama is !"

    What points did you have in mind? I can't think of any that were relevant. Could you talk us through them, please?

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  • 141. At 6:11pm on 17 Oct 2008, turningblueandgrey wrote:

    118 - overall reasonable and measured post, so forgive my singling out 1 point

    131 - nice response as well

    57 and 58 - what is up with these two?
    Are we seeing 'canned' posts popping up disguised as original thoughts?

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  • 142. At 6:15pm on 17 Oct 2008, dceilar wrote:

    Speaking of Socialism . . .

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  • 143. At 6:22pm on 17 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    G and R,

    Just testing to see if my suspicion that the software has been tweaked and now accepts an ampersand without having to code it as an html entity...If this gets through, I'll have to rewrite my links tutorial

    Oh, well...(first test failed), but Jack's link above contained an ampersand, so it seems they're now acceptable in links, if not in text (even when coded)

    We live and learn.
    ed

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  • 144. At 6:22pm on 17 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    G and R,

    Just testing to see if my suspicion that the software has been tweaked and now accepts an ampersand without having to code it as an html entity...If this gets through, I'll have to rewrite my links tutorial

    Oh, well...(first test failed), but Jack's link above contained an ampersand, so it seems they're now acceptable in links, if not in text (even when coded)

    We live and learn.
    ed
    (for some reason I keep getting a 502 error - shades of old times!)

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  • 145. At 6:26pm on 17 Oct 2008, moderate_observer wrote:

    i dont understand why so many are upset about axes to the wealthy, especially those who are not wealthy themselves. Is this some sort of Role-Model Complex?

    I find it annoying when John McCain talks about the US corporation tax being the highest in the world, that means nothing.

    Why?

    Because american companies routinely register their businesses in the bahamas or cayman islands and other tax shelters, therefore corporate taxes do not apply to them. so they pay ZERO...ZILCH..NADA!

    The wealthy also afford good accountants and use every tax avoidance tactic known to man, so after making millions in the year, they file their tax returns and may even get money back from the government.

    Many of the wealthy pay for their daily expenses, like a house or a car, using a registered business so they save a lot on taxes. If they are smart they may even calculate that the business made a loss so they pay nothing. (you dont have to be rich to do this).


    When you finally do the math, you find that the middle class carries most of the tax buren in the united states, and probably many other western civilised nations. Now that is re-distribution of wealth and its not from the rich to the poor its the other way around.

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  • 146. At 6:36pm on 17 Oct 2008, newbriton wrote:

    #118

    "I look at those who endorse him, especially in the high reaches of the entertainment industry(a place I work a bit), the press, and academia(also familiar territory), and I am especially troubled."

    So the entertainment industry, the press, and institutions of higher learning trouble you. Perhaps you would care to expand and explain why. Speaking for my part your analysis and apparent distrust and cynicism troubles me.

    You seem to be torn between what America promises and what it is currently delivering, yet seem unable to grasp that it is the Republicans and their anointed leader who have dumped the US in the crapper. If I were you I would be enraged (in fact I am) and determined to exercise the freedom of voting for a change that this country gives you. This election should not be about liking, disliking or sentiment. It is about the policies the candidates are proposing to get us out of this mess. It's either a third term or change - it couldn't be clearer.

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  • 147. At 6:45pm on 17 Oct 2008, harrino wrote:

    Justin - I do not believe you posted this as a serious counterpoint to the issue of Republican rallys and events being stirred up by very very questionable rhetoric from Sarah Palin in particular. This is the equivalent of using a BNP supporting site a voice for what the British opposition is feeling. You have a responsability to inform the public who have less access to the US media in a balanced way - and this is in my view a huge mistake by you and needs rectifying. Even Fox news would take issue with some of the views expoused on here.

    Secondly the issue about Joe the plumber is not whether or not he is called Joe or is a member of his union or even whether he is licensced or not. It is that John McCain gllefully used him as a reference without fact checking his actual sitaution. One he has admitted he earns less than $250k per year so from an income tax perspective he will be better off under Obama's tax plans. Also he would not be subject to fines if he bought the business he mentioned in regards to Healthcare payments as the business has fewer emplyees than the mimimum neede before healthcare provision is mandatory even the small business taxes would be better under Obama .
    Also a huge issue is the American people's irrational fear with any policy or idea that could remotely come under th term "socialist" It is as evil a word to some Americans as Racist or sexist. I truly believe that the Treasusry response to the banking crisis has been handcuffed due to issues on recommending any policy that could be classed as socialist even if it is ion the best interest for the country. You help bail out the banks - you must take equity in those banks to ensure the taxpayer is properly reinburssed - but that is equivalent to Nationalising America's beacon of capitalism Wall St so they try and get around it with ridiculous proposals from Paulson that would be long term suicide just so they can avoid being called socialists. However they have been forced to backtrack and invest directly into the banks following the European model and are now dealing with as much critisim for the socialist element of this decision as the policies that got them into this predicament

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  • 148. At 6:50pm on 17 Oct 2008, websitejunkie wrote:

    131. , endorfin wrote:

    As a Brit, I'm used to having no written constitution. We accept that the law has to change as society does, and can't see quite the fascination with a very old document, and what was in the minds of the framers of the Constitution.

    We do have fascination of an old document -the Magna Carta, plus the articles of sate that Charles the Second had to sign, before taking his place on the thrown.

    A 'mini constitution,' would be a handy tool to have, it will help in the separation of powers. When Blair dragged us into war, he did not have to ask Parliament, he did so only to make it look more legitimate. As the monarch's governmental mouth piece, so to speak, he could of declared war on her behalf, without consulting Parliament, something a constitution wouldn't allow. After the Iraq debacel, I would go further, and have a referendum each time we wanted to go to war.

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  • 149. At 6:50pm on 17 Oct 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    #139, Ed, the problem is that we have the monkey
    on our backs of human fecundity. Since we cannot
    change human behavior in this regard, we need
    to invent new ways of producing energy, food,
    preserving the environment, and combating disease.

    In short, we are wrecking the planet faster than
    we can devise ways of leaving it, and the only
    way forward is to focus our best minds on solving
    these problems. While using incentives to direct
    a capitalistic economy in productive, rather than
    destructive ways may not be the best way to solve
    these problems, it may be the only way available
    to us.


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  • 150. At 6:57pm on 17 Oct 2008, LongStrangeTrip wrote:

    I'm a cynical Democrat who hasn't forgotten 2000 and 2004, and like everyone else out there, been repeatedly surprised by this campaign.

    Sure, Barack is up in the polls...but I won't be able to breathe easily until I hear him say "So help me God" on the steps of the Capitol, next January.

    The world won't end if Mac wins...I thank goodness Giuliani or Romney aren't the Republican nominees.

    I do worry about Palin...she could be a repeat of George W. if she ever had to sit in the big chair...easily manipulated by powerful insiders. Hopefully McCain picks some wise, moderate people for his cabinet.

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  • 151. At 6:59pm on 17 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    > testing < &

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  • 152. At 7:04pm on 17 Oct 2008, Sankari wrote:

    Post #145; moderate_observer - excellent post, well written and elegantly expressed. Now watch as most of it is ignored.

    I find it fascinating that the Republicans continue to tax the working classes and starve them of essential services whilst giving tax breaks to the top 20%... but as long as they make vague noises about "supporting American values", the punters will come out in droves to vote AGAINST their own interests.

    Poisoned Koolaid must be popular over there.

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  • 153. At 7:05pm on 17 Oct 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    Hi Ed,

    the link I did was just by typing in no specials required anymore.Nice of the BBC.
    Now if only they could get a decent editor to be a journalist.

    Glad to see one person here is with me on the LET IT FALL.


    Humpty dumpty had a great fall.

    Off to keep busy.

    Making sea turtles.

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  • 154. At 7:10pm on 17 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    The polls seem to tighten and loosen depending on pessimism/optimism vis-a-vis the economy. Buffet has been giving a pep talk that might be good for a few days. Bush is trying to soothe the voting public. But the economic outlook hasn't changed at all - bad, really bad.

    I doubt there would be a terrorist attack before the election. The Middle East would prefer a less warlike president and is probably rooting for Obama.

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  • 155. At 7:12pm on 17 Oct 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#20Britishish

    Good luck to the people of Iran. We have ostrich farms here. Personally, I think they are irritating birds, somewhat like turkeys only bigger and they taste like chicken!

    About predictions and polls:

    Since I am discussing birds, my mama often said not to count the chicks until hatched and most of them would be roosters. That may have lost something in the translation.

    I trust, hope and believe in the best outcome but I am already prepared for something not so positive. I do remember the newspaper headlines, DEWEY WINS!

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  • 156. At 7:12pm on 17 Oct 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    Referring us to a site which features the opinions of Michelle Malkin is akin to having us read the opinions of Nick Griffin in the UK. They make the gutter appear to be cleaner than it really is, but nevertheless, it's still the gutter.

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  • 157. At 7:13pm on 17 Oct 2008, moderate_observer wrote:

    #57 icetayo its true bush wont be advising mccain if he wins, but it is also true that mccain will have some of the same advisers Bush has. that is evident alreayd in his campaign, he is using many of Bush's old campaign team, and it is obvious in his speeches as well. I loked up transcripts of old Bush speeches from the 2000 and 2004 campaign and compared them to McCain's and they are in essence saying the same thing.


    if you are a Bush supporter still, then you wont mind, and it should give you some confidence that you still have a horse in this race.


    I suppose those who are so strongly supports McCains ever-changing platform must be among the 20-odd percent that still think Bush is doing a good Job. ....love is blind........

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  • 158. At 7:15pm on 17 Oct 2008, newbriton wrote:

    #147 harrino

    As an expat living in the US for many years I have long ago come to the conclusion that many Americans basically expect something for nothing: Better public education but no taxes to pay for it; better health care but no new taxes to pay for it, etc. Government involvement is viewed as interference and socialistic. The free market economy was meant to take care of it. It hasn't. The US has a chronic number of people without health insurance and even more underinsured. By any measure US education ranks close to the bottom compared with other countries.

    The fact that in the US there are many excellent schools, and world class medical care does not hide or excuse the fact that an unacceptable proportion of the population has access to neither.

    The solution is not socialism or a government involved in every aspect of our lives, but a recognition that the free market with reasonable regulation and oversight does some things well and the government does some things well also.

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  • 159. At 7:16pm on 17 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    G and R,

    The problem is not how to "survive" or "compete" in the Global Economy, but rather how to engage in a better economy

    "Let us begin by assuming what appears to be true: that the so-called "environmental crisis" is now pretty well established as a fact of our age. The problems of pollution, species extinction, loss of wilderness, loss of farmland, loss of topsoil may still be ignored or scoffed at, but they are not denied. Concern for these problems has acquired a certain standing, a measure of discussability, in the media and in some scientific, academic, and religious institutions.

    This is good, of course; obviously, we can't hope to solve these problems without an increase of public awareness and concern. But in an age burdened with "publicity," we have to be aware also that as issues rise into popularity they rise also into the danger of oversimplification. To speak of this danger is especially necessary in confronting the destructiveness of our relationship to nature, which is the result, in the first place, of gross oversimplification.
    ...And so we will be wrong if we attempt to correct what we perceive as "environmental" problems without correcting the economic oversimplification that caused them.... "The Idea of a Local Economy
    I recommend taking the time to read the entire piece.

    Peace and Prosperity (and thrift)
    ed

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  • 160. At 7:22pm on 17 Oct 2008, CarlosUSA wrote:

    Parrisia says that McCain use of 'Joe the Plumber' is a 'fake'. This is defamatory and implies that McCain is a liar. Read the ENTIRE conversation that 'Joe' (his nickname) had with Obama. Virtually everything that has been reported in a super abbreviated context around the world by many news media and by Parrisia, is contributing to more false and misleading information.

    Joe the Plumbers ENTIRE conversation, word for word, can be easily accessed and no longer distorted, once all people do PROPER research on their own. The entire video and written, word for word, breakdown is on the web. Can't find it, go to Michelle Malkin's website.

    BBC, are you up to making a factual correction, for the sake of ALL
    concerned, as in those of us who read your website on a daily basis?

    Even the 'title' of today's article on Joe the Plumber that you published, is once again, misleading.

    My boss said that if I want to get an unbiased view, as in the truth, of what is really going on in the USA, to check out the BBC. My hope is that you are not joining the mainstream media in the USA, which regularly distorts and edits stories that pander to politicians.

    Give us the WHOLE story, as in unedited content and let we the readers, form our own opinions.

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  • 161. At 7:23pm on 17 Oct 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    And, just to remind everybody how inflation can
    cause stress for the average working person,
    I recommend perusal of this story.

    It looks like we could be in for a rough ride...

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  • 162. At 7:23pm on 17 Oct 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    endorfin (#131), your observation about "separation of Church and State" in the US not having happened being an apparent contradiction arises out of the term you use, which is not the language of the US Constitution. The Constitution prohibits government from passing any law "respecting the establishment of religion" and from applying any "religious test" to holding government office. The people, however, are free to apply any religious test they please in any context, including deciding how to vote.

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  • 163. At 7:23pm on 17 Oct 2008, Cassandra wrote:

    Speaking as a cuddly "lefty" - albeit armed to the teeth - I'm not sure where you're going with this commentary.

    Is Justin still out there or has his space been taken over by someone considerably les eloquent than I remember?

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  • 164. At 7:25pm on 17 Oct 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To #153Jacksforge

    Sea turtles! I want one. I must make a trip and visit your workshop.

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  • 165. At 7:27pm on 17 Oct 2008, newbriton wrote:

    #150
    The world won't end if Mac wins..

    I wish I were so sure. What world are you talking about by the way? My world started to wind down in 2000 and I'm desperately afraid it may continue to do so after Nov. 4.

    McCain has a record of reckless, knee jerk behaviour. It does not tax my imagination too far to envisage the possible outcomes of a McCain / Ahmadinejad clash. Oh of course that could never happen could it - he won't even talk to him!

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  • 166. At 7:30pm on 17 Oct 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    "118. At 4:43pm on 17 Oct 2008, OldSouth wrote:

    "I have more confidence that Sen. McCain(with his many shortcomings) will be a more effective guardian of the Constitution that makes everything else possible."

    Incomprehensible. He is the paid up member of a party whihc has sort to subvert the consitution over the last 8 years.

    Many of the basic freedoms of the US constitution are now in tatters - this republican administration has even sort to justify torture, abandoned due process etc

    And this contents you?

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  • 167. At 7:30pm on 17 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:

    `

    Dear Guns

    Having read your posts for months now, and realising that you do have the best wishes for the human race at heart, I really do wish the you would get off the fence.

    If you want to stay with John McCain and trickle down economics, then say so. If you wish to stay with Sarah Palin and her non-creatationism and all else besides, then say so.

    If you cannot support Obama because of the colour of his skin, then say so.

    Please, dear guns, you own us an explantion by now.

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  • 168. At 7:32pm on 17 Oct 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    Okay not wanting to get into Justin's half-hearted effort at a blog but I did notice a mention earlier of a poll showing the gap down to 2%.
    If you go over to www.fivethirtyeight.com you can get a full analysis but the high, or rather low, points are:
    It's old
    It's internet based
    It's being misrepresented by Mr. Matt Drudge.

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  • 169. At 7:32pm on 17 Oct 2008, websitejunkie wrote:

    149., gunsandreligion wrote

    While using incentives to direct
    a capitalistic economy in productive, rather than
    destructive ways may not be the best way to solve
    these problems, it may be the only way available
    to us.

    Exactly if we are still going to stick your heads in the sand, and continue with capitalism - we should do a 'FDR (sorry you brought it up), and invest in 'green technology.'

    But we wont, because we have still got our heads in the sand, pretend that the free market works. We will just keep lurching from one criss to another.

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  • 170. At 7:35pm on 17 Oct 2008, RedWhiteandermblue wrote:

    "We accept that the law has to change as society does, and can't see quite the fascination with a very old document, and what was in the minds of the framers of the Constitution"

    Of course, in one crucial way the makers of the Constitution were wrong and evil, namely that they supported slavery. They had other notable faults as well, including not enfranchising many men and all women.

    Nevertheless, a broad, bipartisan swath of Americans would say that for all their faults, the makers of the constitution thought better and more thoroughly about government than any Americans since, and perhaps as well as anyone in history. So changes to the constitution should be rare, and its vital articles left intact, as changing them would almost certainly be a change for the worse.

    While I respect all the UK has accomplished in the way of good and improving government, on balance I might still prefer the American system. Your lack of a Bill of Rights, in particular, I would find hard to tolerate.

    In fact the makers of the constitution agreed with your original point.

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  • 171. At 7:36pm on 17 Oct 2008, moderate_observer wrote:

    #152 sankari, im not sure if you heard of a tax incentive program designed to give grants to small , supposedly poor farmers. A farm subsidy program.


    it was revealed maybe a year and a half ago that these subsidies advertised to be helping the working averaged man have been in fact been given to millionaires and billionaires. Some of these recipients, actually not farmers but own acres of land and registered them as farms.

    this is a perfect example of how tax dollars paid for by the middle class is used to fatten the pockets of the richest 2%.

    Politicians of a certain persuasion has protected these laws and practices, and they get re-elected every year. Those who oppose them are called protectionists or socialists.

    here is an article with reference to the issue.

    http://www.ewg.org/node/27007

    this is an ethical issue dont you think ?



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  • 172. At 7:50pm on 17 Oct 2008, moderate_observer wrote:

    the makers of the constitution supported slavery, but I think they had enough forsight to know that slavery could not last forever, the very constitution that they wrote made slavery and inequality among men to be unacceptable (though at the time they did not see slaves as men) .

    i think when the constitution was written it was written with hope that it would create a better future for everyone regardless of who they are , instead of focusing too sharply on the realities of the time it was written.

    'a dream of a better future'

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  • 173. At 7:53pm on 17 Oct 2008, moderate_observer wrote:

    sorry my previous post was in response to # 170. redwhiteandblue

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  • 174. At 8:11pm on 17 Oct 2008, SaintDominick wrote:

    Ref 118

    "My concern is that Mr. Obama and his associates will further attempt to erode those proscriptions of governmental power, through his appointments to the Federal courts..."

    Everything in Obama's past, from his tenure as a professor of Constitutional Law to the policies and hopes he so eloquently expresses, suggest he will be a great supporter of our Constitution.

    Those concerned about the preservation of our Constitutional, Civil Rights, and the values that our country used to stand for should look at what has taken place during the last 8 years before passing judgment and making unfounded allegations against others.

    As horrible as our foreign policy has been, and as damaging as the borrow and spend and trickle down economic policies are to our country, as an American, what I deplore the most is our loss of civil rights and our ideals.

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  • 175. At 8:14pm on 17 Oct 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    #169, websitejunkie, I think that we are
    more or less in agreement. I'm not sure
    that FDR's model (heavy industry, etc)
    was appropriate, but obviously some
    additional incentive is needed early in
    the life cycle of new technologies to
    accelerate their development to commercial
    scale.

    Unfortunately, as you point out, our
    subsidies seem to be politically motivated.

    For example, There is this "ethanol subsidy,"
    in effect which some politicians support,
    which does nothing except elevate the cost
    of food, because it subsidizes the production
    of ethanol from food stock in an
    environmentally unfriendly way.

    What we really need are research grants
    to accelerate the development of ethanol
    from waste products, and new forms of
    wind, solar, and tide energy.

    And, while I am generally supportive of
    Obama's energy plan (which is actually
    somewhat vague), he is the one who
    supported the ethanol subsidy, while
    McCain rightly opposed it.

    All I am saying here is, let's not get too
    optimistic about any politician, they all
    have their flaws.

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  • 176. At 8:18pm on 17 Oct 2008, newbriton wrote:

    #170

    While I respect all the UK has accomplished in the way of good and improving government, on balance I might still prefer the American system. Your lack of a Bill of Rights, in particular, I would find hard to tolerate.

    Yeah? I don't see the US Bill of Rights applied across the board. At least in the UK everyone is treated equally under the law.

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  • 177. At 8:22pm on 17 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    Ref #120
    It is none of your business what I or anyone else makes.

    And I not going to publish it on the internet.

    "Self employed people already have a higher burden because we have to pay more of a Social Secuirty tax due to no emplyer contribution.

    Not the social secuirty is going to be around unless i is reformed."

    OK, I'll take this as "No, I am not earning more than $250,000 per year". Which means that you will *benefit* from Obama's tax cuts. Congratulations!

    (so you say I don't agree you don't understand the self employment tax plus with McCain I'll deduct me entire healthcare plan)

    I think you already know that you'd be better off under Obama; you just don't want to admit it.

    (I'll judge who I think I would be better off with, Thank you)

    "Who care if Joe is lying or not, he is not running for anything."

    It matters because McCain is now using Joe in his election advertisements, and Joe claimed he would be worse off under Obama. In fact, Joe would *benefit* from Obama's tax plan.

    "I am more concerned about the lies of ACORN, Axelrod Soros and others who will affect things in the election and beyond."

    ACORN has been dealt with repeatedly; again and again and again. We keep posting the truth and you keep ignoring it.

    (First Soros pays little tax because he keeps his money in off shore accounts, you post what you think is the truth about ACORN but you won't admidt that they are ngaged in major voter fraud. Google any news web sight excpet NBC and you will see it)

    For an unbiased overview of the issues, read the Wikipedia article here: http://tinyurl.com/54o77a


    (Wikpedia is a PC fraud and Jim Wales censors any moderate or conservative voice. I am banned from editing there for putting references to Hezbollah terrorism and Dictator Hugo stealing the election)
    Thus:

    >>
    During investigations, ACORN has publicly supported the investigations of employees submitting fraudulent voter registration information, has fired them if evidence supports the charges, and has stated its concern with false information on registration forms. Officials have stated that ACORN has been cooperative in these investigations.
    >>



    Incidentally, Axelrod Soros is one of the people who will be paying more tax

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  • 178. At 8:24pm on 17 Oct 2008, kburns_ireland wrote:

    McCains' differing (dare I say, "erratic"?) strategies have all come up flat, including the recent 'gloves off' approach, which I reckon has backfired, or at least sunk into the oblivion that is the Economy.

    I just think it's simply too late to effectively change strategy - there isn't much more room to gain momentum, which is all important. And the end-game, Obama is obviously holding the best cards, and I doubt the realism of a McCain comeback.

    He may be somewhat of a 'comback-kid', but he's no miracle worker.

    The only possible 'miracle' (I, of course, mean this in a grim way) is a national security crisis. But then again - maybe Obama's Mr. Cool attitude would trump McCains tendancy to panic in such an event. Who can say?

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  • 179. At 8:32pm on 17 Oct 2008, Mike Mullen wrote:

    #175 Gunsandreligion:

    "What we really need are research grants
    to accelerate the development of ethanol
    from waste products,"

    Try algae; an article on this very website:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/susanwatts/2008/10/all_of_a_sudden_algae_is_every.html

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  • 180. At 8:34pm on 17 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    14, Sankari.

    Interesting about paying off early. The odds here heavily favor Obama.

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  • 181. At 8:39pm on 17 Oct 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    websitejunkie, sorry that I mistakenly thought that
    you were critical of subsidies, I had you confused
    with another post.

    But, I agree, the free market won't work because
    it is too sensitive to short-term fluctuations in
    price signals. It's hard to make a long-term plan
    when everything gets thrown out the window due
    to a temporary change, such as the drop in
    the price of oil that we are seeing now.

    80%, thank you for reading my back posts before
    forming a snap judgement. I have problems with
    the positions taken by both candidates and their
    parties. (Actually, I think that each candidate is
    better than their parties.)

    I'm still on the fence because there are a lot of
    issues to be dealt with. It has nothing to do with
    the color of Obama's skin, and I would be
    much more likely to vote for Colin Powell, if
    he were running, than either candidate on the ballot.

    It's too bad that he is not running, and it's too bad
    that Condi Rice is not McCain's running mate.

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  • 182. At 8:39pm on 17 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    177, Ubermensch.

    ""Self employed people already have a higher burden because we have to pay more of a Social Secuirty tax due to no emplyer contribution."

    Naive statement. What the employer pays out in social security, would have been added to your salary if he didn't pay it.

    People also naively think that the employer is paying your health insurance. Wrong! What he pays is deducted from the salary you would have earned, if he didn't pay it.

    There is no free lunch.

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  • 183. At 8:40pm on 17 Oct 2008, RomeStu wrote:

    #174 - I agree entirely.
    Civil rights - it is astounding that so many people can accept the total snooping powers given by the patriot act, but would shout out about a couple of CCTV cameras in crime black spot as being "Orwellian".

    More disgraceful by far is that this act was passed on the nod by Congress, many of whom later admitted to not even having read it. The scare tactics employed over the last 7 years (anyone read Farenheit 451) and the legislation passed on the "fear of terror" is beyond belief.


    Another point - for many non-Americans this election is about whether America will have any sort of reputation left with which to help the rest of the world develop. This is important because, even if many US citizens don't realise it, the rest of the world is important, and it does look to the USA for guidance ..... and in the past a sort of moral high ground.

    This moral high ground has been lost since the Iraq war, and Obama for me is the man to rebuild this. America needs a man who will talk first .... and with anyone.

    If the world is peaceful and prosperous life is better for everyone (except arms dealers and mercenaries I guess).

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  • 184. At 8:40pm on 17 Oct 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #22. icetayoa:
    Whilst reading a fairly recent edition of THE ECONOMIST, I browsed through the job advertisement section . . . These are standard requirements when applying for a job in any organization. My question is simple. If the United States of America were a Corporation that was looking to hire a C.E.O to turn around its fortunes, will Obama?s CV/Resume make it past the screening stage? . . .

    If corporations demand these requirements as conditions precedent for job interviews, why do the MSM think the American voter is any different, and why do they think they do not demand these requirements from their next president??"

    For a start, the United States is not a corporation, and secondly, you might ask the same question of Martin Sullivan, Steven Bensinger, Michael Castelli and others at AIG - I feel sure they had all the requirements - and look what happened. You might even consider the performance of Carly Fiorina - before she was fired from Hewlett-Packard. 'Nuff said.

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  • 185. At 8:44pm on 17 Oct 2008, threnodio wrote:

    I wonder if Joe the Plumber has considered relocating to the UK. You can never get a plumber when you need one, when you do find one he generally speaks Polish and the charges are astronomical.

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  • 186. At 8:51pm on 17 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    I may be behind the curve, but the last time I looked at the algae projects, they involved a wholwe lot of polyethylene (oil-based) and glass (high embodied energy (carbon)), and a whole lot of water (getting scarcer) and technology....

    The ethanol-for-energy involves some very dubious calculations, some of which show it eating more energy than it outputs...If something looks too good to be true, it probably is.

    The first Law of Thermodynamics is the ruling principle - "There is no such thing as a free lunch".

    Peace to all
    ed

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  • 187. At 8:57pm on 17 Oct 2008, RomeStu wrote:

    More from Rome....

    Regarding the whole election issue, here's an idea .....

    Forget Obama changing the Constitution .. if he has any b#lls he will change the entire systems of elections to make it more democratic, less time-wasting and more accountable.

    Barack, if you're reading this please feel free to grab these ideas

    1) Candidates shall publish written manifesto of their policies before the primaries.
    This will save thousands of column inches and hours of studio blah blah about what they really think. It will also mean they can't say different things in different towns or states, or pick VP candidate with radically opposed views.
    They can also be held to account later by the voters.

    2) Candidates once selected by their parties will present their "cabinet" - thus voters know roughly who is going to be alongside the Pres, doing the grunt work.

    3) cut the campaign to 2 months .... we have plenty of media now (some may say too much)

    4) President takes office once elected. This bizarre 2 month period of waiting is just wierd.
    In every other Western democracy the newly elected leader takes over the next day.

    5) Lose the "electoral college" - it's an 18th century anachronism irrelevant in the modern world (yes I know it's origins - my point stands).
    America just looks daft telling the developing world how to do elections when the man with fewer votes wins - not just 2000 - that was I believe the 4th time.

    6) Get some new political parties ... it'll spice things up a bit.


    Oh, and before anyone mentions it, I know we in Italy can't really comment on running a government etc .... but we do have about 30 different parties to choose from before Berlusconi gets to be Prime Minister.
    Still he broke the lectern at the White House the other day in his rush to kiss George Bush! (can't do limks, but it's easy to find!)

    Ciao

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  • 188. At 9:04pm on 17 Oct 2008, RomeStu wrote:

    #185 Threnodio

    I thought the Polish plumbers were all off home now the pound is so weak.

    But Joe must charge fairly high rates if he wants to make 250K and be worse off under Obama!

    Peace

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  • 189. At 9:59pm on 17 Oct 2008, Cainsy586 wrote:

    I love Justin Weeb's blogs. He's becoming like a parody of P J O'Rourke. Peace Kills!

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  • 190. At 10:07pm on 17 Oct 2008, Dazzling_Dirk_Thrust wrote:

    I don't know understand why the BBC feature a blogger with such rabidly conservative opinons. His observations rarely reflect the reality of this campaign.

    Full of untruths, this blog is about as misleading, unoriginal and negative as the McGrumpa campaign itself.

    $traight talk expre$$ - special interests meet special needs!

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  • 191. At 10:07pm on 17 Oct 2008, scamis wrote:

    I am disappointed that you would give Malkin's "tu quoque" nonsense a false air of legitimacy by linking to it here. You can find plenty of nastiness out on the Internet, what COUNTS is what the candidates and actual representatives of each party are doing, and how they respond to the behavior of people at their rallies, and there is NO comparison. Obama won't even let people boo his opponent, in stark contrast to how the Republicans are acting.

    The Supreme Court just ruled that ACORN is not guilty of fraud in Ohio, so I hope y'all will shup up about that now.

    I agree with oldsouth about one thing: The Constitution is absolutely crucial. It's not just some "old document." It's the foundation of our government and arguably our whole society; it's what allows us to hold a very diverse and ever-changing population together. Every elected official takes an oath to uphold it. Without the Constitution, there IS no United States of America.

    What I disagree with is the assertion that liberals don't adhere to the Constitution. This is a common right-wing misrepresentation, and it's just plain wrong.

    The framers of the Constitution very plainly intended that spelling out certain rights DID NOT mean that only those specific rights were guaranteed, but that other rights could and should be construed as being guaranteed by the Constitution as well. Article IX says so in so many words: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

    The various "constructionist" arguments which dismiss broader interpretations of the Constitution only hold water if you completely ignore Article IX, and are therefore inherently self-contradictory.

    As other people have said, Barack Obama is a Constitutional scholar and therefore if you are concerned about the health of the Constitution he is your best bet. After eight years of George W. Bush, we have some reason to be concerned. I don't think that John McCain, on the other hand, or the Republican party in general, offers much hope on that score.

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  • 192. At 10:14pm on 17 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #182

    No you are naive, self emplyed people have an additional 15% tax burden.

    And frankly people are work for any goverment get a free ride on the healthcare overpaif and they don't contribute anymore than 20%.

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  • 193. At 10:30pm on 17 Oct 2008, OhNeverMind wrote:

    #185

    Re: Polish Plumbers

    The charges are usually a lot less and the work a dammed lot better executed.

    Vote McCain, if you can.

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  • 194. At 10:57pm on 17 Oct 2008, thegreatape wrote:

    The strange thing about this whole Joe the Plumber situation is that McCain seems to be using a guy with is reasonably affluent and doesn't represent 95% of Americans as an example of how you'll all lose out. Realistically, the guy is gonna get taxed an extra 3% on everything he earns over 250K and nothing extra before, which anyone earning that much can well afford. It seems that McCain is clutching at straws, he's trying desperately to use an 'Average Joe' to represent the American people, but that average man is actually reasonably wealthy and set to lose only an paltry proportion of his income.

    Now, like most Europeans, I lean towards the Democrats, but Obama is too much like Tony Blair in his all smiles and hand gestures approach. However, if the most telling weakness McCain can find to exploit in Obama's plans is a guy who represents 5% of the nation, is not struggling and is only likely to lose less than 1% of his overall income after guaranteeing himself a decent wage then it clearing shows McCain is grasping not at straws but at thin air.

    My only hope is that McCain loses big and Obama is backed by some experienced individuals who can starts to sweep away some of the debris left by the BUsh administration. If nothing else, Obama as president would go a long way to healing the damage to the USA's tarnished reputation around the world, McCain would only serve to isolate Americans further and leave the rest of us wondering if the planet is pulling in the same direction or if you Americans are really so worried about yourselves that you put the Not-So-Average Joe about the Average Everyman

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  • 195. At 11:54pm on 17 Oct 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #192. MagicKirin: "And frankly people are work for any goverment get a free ride on the healthcare overpaif . . ."

    You might mention that to your candidate; the American taxpayer picks up the tab for his health care as a Senator. What's good for him should be available to everyone.

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  • 196. At 00:31am on 18 Oct 2008, anglohawaiian wrote:

    Justin...why on earth are you referring us to the hateful Michelle Malkin for her views about hate speech? She's a spewing cauldron of bigotry and intolerance if ever there was one! Sure there are angry and even intolerant voices on the liberal-left, but the point about the incitement to intolerance and anti-Americanism coming from McCain/Palin is it that occurs within a long and sordid history of racial and political violence in this country, a history that is primarily identified with the right. With the exception of a few rather pathetic Weathermen (who killed one another) and a few Black Panthers who went down firing in a hail of police and FBI bullets, there is no real tradition of leftist (much less African American) political violence. The case is quite otherwise on the right. From the Oklahoma bombing to modern day racial lynchings and deaths in police custody, from the Birmingham bombing to the assasination of civil rights workers, and of men like Martin Luther King and Medgar Evers (and hundreds of lesser known men and women), conservatives in the US have consistently used violence to stamp out reform movements. As a country, violence has always been used to break the back of non-violent resistance and peaceful movements for social change. That is why it matters what McCain and Palin say...and why many Americans are afraid that they will awaken the worst demons of American political life. Whatever Madonna and Bernhardt may say about the GOP, McCain and Bush, frankly, is unlikely to change many votes...let alone send armed killers into the streets.

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  • 197. At 01:24am on 18 Oct 2008, Sankari wrote:

    Post #171; moderate_observer wrote: "#152 sankari, im not sure if you heard of a tax incentive program designed to give grants to small , supposedly poor farmers. A farm subsidy program.

    it was revealed maybe a year and a half ago that these subsidies advertised to be helping the working averaged man have been in fact been given to millionaires and billionaires. Some of these recipients, actually not farmers but own acres of land and registered them as farms.

    this is a perfect example of how tax dollars paid for by the middle class is used to fatten the pockets of the richest 2%.

    Politicians of a certain persuasion has protected these laws and practices, and they get re-elected every year. Those who oppose them are called protectionists or socialists.

    here is an article with reference to the issue.

    http://www.ewg.org/node/27007

    this is an ethical issue dont you think ?"

    I have indeed heard of these subsidies; in fact, I have criticised them in some of my posts to Justin's blog. Yes, this is an ethical issue - but one which finds its counterpart on the other side of the pond (European farm subsidies, anyone?)

    It certainly demolishes America's claim to prefer "free trade". What she really wants is no trade protection for any of her trading partners, and PLENTY of trade protection for her own industries. One might be tempted to call this a form of socialism... ;)

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  • 198. At 03:14am on 18 Oct 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    #113

    Marcus,

    Thanks for the giggle. You really think somewhere there is some evidence that Obama said 'You, acorn, go forth and register folks who cannot vote. And make them vote for me'. Despite there being no direct campaign between him and their organization (the spin off is, umm, a spin off) and him being, like, smart.

    As Spongebob would say:

    Baaaaaaahhhhh Baaaaaahhhh

    On the other hand poor Sarah is found to have had ethical breaches, unanimously voted on by 12 Reps and 4 Dems, and poior Johnny still regrets being caught in the S&L scandal taking money from Keating.

    This is funny!

    Thank you for the giggles.

    Giggly Sam

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  • 199. At 03:29am on 18 Oct 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    #186

    Ed,

    You are correct. It is bad chemistry.

    Scientist Sam

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  • 200. At 05:50am on 18 Oct 2008, possumMurgatroyd wrote:

    #118OldSouth
    What is the problem with the States losing their power to the federal government? Here in Australia the States are run like the separate countries that they once were and it is so inefficient. Here in south east Queensland the water is about to be piped from north Queensland 2000km away rather than northern NSW 20km away! We have separate medical bodies, separate driving rules, separate education exams. It's ridiculous! Power to the federal government I say.

    to 80%
    Thankyou for your guidance.

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  • 201. At 07:21am on 18 Oct 2008, Parrisia wrote:

    to Carlos_USA (#160)

    I get all my info from BBC.
    I like Sen.McCain. I don't like the notion "I will do and say anything to get what I want"

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  • 202. At 09:18am on 18 Oct 2008, smileytm303 wrote:

    It's awful, just awful, to put Michelle Malkin's wretched pages here.

    There is no comparison whatsoever between acts, however atrocious, carried on by individuals who hate McCain and Palin, and hate speech sanctioned by their blind eye, under their gaze, on their watch, so to speak.

    Take a look at Philip Zimbardo's book. He's the guy who did the Stanford Prison Experiment, in which college grads who had been vetted for relative normalcy turned the experiment into Abu Ghraib in three days. They did this because of the power of the situation they were caught in.

    Ordinary people can do evil things, and we've witnessed such things this week at the Palin and McCain rallies.

    Playing tit for tat like Michelle Malkin is beyond egregious.

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  • 203. At 3:28pm on 18 Oct 2008, scamis wrote:

    The Republicans' bogus attacks on ACORN are the same kind of vote-suppression tactics they used in 2004 and 2006, which are *already* under investigation by the Department of Justice.

    Barack Obama's campaign just sent a letter requesting the expansion of the Special Prosecutor's authority to include the current campaign. The letter makes a very cogent argument that the current pattern of behavior is exactly similar to the behavior which provoked the investigation...even down to including some of the same individuals.

    This is serious, y'all. This is involvement of the Republican party at all levels...local, state, and Federal...in vote-rigging, vote suppression, and illegal pressure on Department of Justice staff. And it's going on *right now.*

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  • 204. At 4:44pm on 18 Oct 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #118. OldSouth: "We are at war, and we need someone with a long tradition of military experience behind him." We are not "at war" in the sense that it requires a knowledge of military strategy - and during the last century, with the single exception of Eisenhower, all American presidents have been civilians without any important military background; FDR, Truman, LBJ, Reagan - what "long tradition of military experience" did they have - and what such tradition did George W Bush have? If FDR was good enough to be elected four times, then Mr Obama is good enough to be elected once, if not twice.

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  • 205. At 5:31pm on 18 Oct 2008, proles wrote:

    Who, pray tell, is the cuddly so-called "main man"? And what does so-called "lefties" have to do with Obama/McCain, except in contradistinction to the virtually indistinguishable (policywise) Duopoly Party Deadly Duo. Remarkable campaign caricatures, though. Compare the trumped-up petty pickings in Malkin's mutterings to images of the countless true victims of lethal American foreign policies in Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan and throughout much of the rest of the world for many decades. Policies supported by both McCharacter and Obama Copacabana, with only minor differences over the means. Such images and discussion aren't permitted in Duopoly Party campaigning, of course, so it's important to try and focus attention where it least matters, in petty little personal mudslinging; and systematically excluding any third party or outside alternatives. Little wonder so many "newly registered" - and already registered - voters "may well not turn up" on the uninspiring occasion of another sham election day.

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  • 206. At 8:27pm on 18 Oct 2008, Yankeefreedom76 wrote:

    #64 Malcolmd,

    I understand your confusion about the electoral college and why we have it.

    It goes back to 1783, The Treaty of Paris, where, after the American Revolution was over, Great Britain not only recognized our independence as a free nation, but it recognized each of the 13 new States as 13 individual "Sovereign States". In effect, 13 nations bound loosely together by a central government, much like the EU of today.

    So, to make a long story short, when it came time to vote, not only each individual got to vote, but each State did too.
    It was deemed by our founding fathers that the vote of the States, because of their Sovereignty, were a little more important than the individual.

    Though it's only happened a few times in our history, the electoral college always trumps the individual vote.

    Our War between the States changed the way the nation saw itself. Though each State makes it's own laws on any given issue, Federal law takes precedence over State law.

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  • 207. At 8:55pm on 18 Oct 2008, Yankeefreedom76 wrote:

    #200 PossumMurgatroyed,

    The problem with the Federal government holding all the power is just that, to much power concentrated in one place and held by too few people.
    It's a potential disaster waiting to happen.

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  • 208. At 9:55pm on 18 Oct 2008, Scribesolomon wrote:

    McCain's inexorable march to victory!
    Slowly, but steadily McCain has been nibbling away at the lead in which BHO basked, due to a headstart provided by the
    perceived debacles of GWB administration,
    mired as it was in retaliation to 9/11.

    The opportunity to seize control of the situation from the Republicans was open to any viable Democrat-not necessarily BHO,
    because he was special or anything of the sort more than other Democrats. But trite
    slogans of BHO like 'change' and 'more of the same' seemed to resonate somewhat withthe frustrated voters.

    It was quite a coincidence that the fuel crisis, the subprime mortgage crisis and the insolvency problems which have occurred shortly before the Presidential elections added fuel to the fire with the media waiting in the wings to fan it.

    So while BHO and HRC were thriving in it,
    the conservatives were struggling to put up
    a viable maverick as a counterpoise. After
    much infighting the most maverick of them
    all, McCain, emerged at last to take on the mantle of rightist leader.
    However, the very experienced McCain followed an independent line to the chagrin of the establishment GOP. While such a line brought him into conflict with members of his own party it saved him from the impact of vibes of Democrats.
    To cut a long story short, he is sitting pretty
    in the saddle so to say and is sure to edge
    BHO out.
    anti-Bush Democrats

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  • 209. At 10:02pm on 18 Oct 2008, lawchicago wrote:

    McCain is now calling Obama a European Socialist .
    First a elitist
    Then a terrorist
    Then" that one "
    Now he gets out the brush and tries to paint Obama as a European Socialist ( Code for Commie)
    getting desperate John?
    got any shame at all?

    Lets talk about what your are Johnny.. a philandering son of the military elite who married money -convenient ? Then used it as a spring board to politics chumming up with Keating and the likes . You wouldn't know what the middle class was like if you were actually to come into contact with it on a real basis .

    John, your what wrong with this country old guy- in so many ways I cant begin to enumerate

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  • 210. At 10:06pm on 18 Oct 2008, secretnook wrote:

    October 18, 2008

    Gallup Daily: Obama Maintains Lead
    Among registered voters, Obama now leads 50% to 42%

    USAElection 2008Gallup DailyAmericasNorthern America
    PRINCETON, NJ -- The latest Gallup Poll Daily tracking report from Wednesday through Friday, including two days of interviewing after Wednesday night's final presidential debate, shows Barack Obama with a 50%to 42% lead over John McCain among registered voters.



    Obama's eight-point lead among registered voters is similar to his margin among this group over the last several days. Gallup's likely voter scenarios show a closer race. Gallup's expanded likely voter model, based on respondents' answers to questions about current interest in the election and intention to vote, shows a 50% to 46% race, which is a more narrow lead for Obama among this group than in previous days. If turnout in this year's election follows traditional patterns by which the voting electorate skews towards those who usually vote as well as those who are interested in this year's election, the race shows Obama leading at 49% to 47%, where it has been among this group for three days. (To view the complete trend since March 7, 2008, click here.)
    -- Frank Newport



    (Click here to see how the race currently breaks down by demographic subgroup.)

    Survey Methods

    For the Gallup Poll Daily tracking survey, Gallup is interviewing no fewer than 1,000 U.S. adults nationwide each day during 2008.

    The general-election results are based on combined data from Oct. 15-17, 2008. For results based on this sample of 2,796 registered voters, the maximum margin of sampling error is ±2 percentage points.

    For results based on the sample of 2,572 "traditional" likely voters (based on the model taking into account current voting intention and past voting behavior), the maximum margin of sampling error is ±2 percentage points.

    For results based on the sample of 2,263 more broadly defined likely voters (based on the model taking into account current voting intention only), the maximum margin of sampling error is ±2 percentage points.

    Interviews are conducted with respondents on landline telephones (for respondents with a landline telephone) and cellular phones (for respondents who are cell phone only).

    In addition to sampling error, question wording and practical difficulties in conducting surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of public opinion polls.

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  • 211. At 00:46am on 19 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    208, Scribe.

    Wishing will not make it so, even on Mars.

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  • 212. At 01:41am on 19 Oct 2008, jcputn5349 wrote:

    O's getting the word out: Together, Pelosi, Obama, and Reid will turn the IRS into a "redistribution of the wealth" scam! This is better than non-existent Social Security! Their only hurdle now is that loathsome group, the American people. We must spin this unfortunate phrase that slipped from O's mouth and make it sound like he said, "Joe, my first act as Emperor, I mean President, will be massive Ronald Reagan Tax Cuts, Fair Tax, and Flat Tax Amendment to the US Constitution." The MSM will help us. A Gallup poll said 90% of Republicans, 85% Independents, but only 77% of Democrats reject "redistribution of the wealth."

    What is wrong with Democrats when only 77% reject socialism? What are the other 33% doing...oh wait, those are the Democratic Party leaders, Vermont, Oregon, California, state college professors, and government workers without skill, energy, or will to make it in the private sector.

    This gallup poll proves once again that the American people have always been, are now, and ever will be free market capitalist conservatives, and the only way for an anti-American socialist to win the presidency is through deception. He has to trick people into thinking he is a conservative just as every other Democrat has to do.

    If O is selected as king, I promise you people will work less and contribute as close to zero as possible to the GNP and government revenues because they do not support socialism. It is our duty as human beings to overthrow it, and the US Constitution charges us, as citizens, with that duty. Even now, companies are breaking into smaller pieces, and firing people so the company can earn less than 250k a year, and maybe survive an O administration. Some people are going into early retirement. Other people will work overseas in a more business friendly environment. The US federal government is headed for a civilian induced famine of their tax and spending ways. They can raise taxes on paper all they want. We're going to sit back, watch TV, and eat Doritos...

    I've never seen one presidential candidate's campaign destroy an economy before he has even entered the office. But, the ups and downs of stocks reflect more than just housing and bank problems; it reflects adjustments business people are making in order to survive the next few years of a Democratic Party Absolutism. It is evidence of the aversion people have to socialism. It's an aversion that is to the core, and there exists a deep and spiritual distrust of Obama among Americans that he confirmed when he said, "redistribute the wealth." Our distrust is valid.

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  • 213. At 01:43am on 19 Oct 2008, jcputn5349 wrote:

    "... God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."

    ~ Thomas Jefferson, Nov. 13, 1787, Letter to William S. Smith, see Jefferson On Democracy, 20 (S. Padover ed. 1939).

    We are not wrong in this case.

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  • 214. At 02:30am on 19 Oct 2008, meminmk wrote:

    Post 212 jcputn5349 wrote:

    "What is wrong with Democrats when only 77% reject socialism? What are the other 33% doing..."

    And then a typical rabid tirade against public sector workers. I dread to think what you work as. Probably a top notch corporate "banker" as we say!

    Now, repeat after me, 77 and 33 equals .....

    Oh and what will you do with the 10% of Republicans who apparently support "redistribution of wealth"? Drum them out of the party? Snap their swords? Up against the wall?

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  • 215. At 03:34am on 19 Oct 2008, niwus00 wrote:

    I would like to state my case against voting for Obama.

    Please, before anyone goes crazy accusing me of being a Republican, right-winger, racist, or whatever you should know I don’t identify with any party completely. I vote for candidates based on who I think will be best given the circumstances. In 2004 I voted for John Kerry (mainly because he wasn’t Bush) & in 2000 I voted for Ralph Nader – not that I thought he had a chance in hell, but how can we moan about ‘no third party’ if we never show our support at the polls? Truth is I actually DID like Obama at the beginning of the primaries – and between him, Hillary, and McCain (whom I have always liked as a moderate Republican) I thought “wow – finally an election I don’t feel bad about.” And “No matter who wins, we’ll be ok”.

    Oh how the times have changed…

    First and foremost, I do not and have never made decisions about other people based on something as asinine as the color of their skin. I grew up on military installations and have always been surrounded by wide varieties of people. They’ve been my friends, neighbors, co-workers, bosses, teammates, and classmates. I’ve had the privilege to meet many good and interesting people from many backgrounds.

    But where do we start with Obama?
    One word – CHARACTER. Something my mother has told me from the time I was little was that ‘a person is judged by the company they keep’. Forget about personal entanglements with such characters as ex-terrorists (William Ayers), Radicals (Democratic Socialists of America), Racists (Rev. Jeramiah Wright, Phledger), and convicted felons (Tony Rezko) - just looking past them at his campaign staff one is hard pressed to find anyone who isn't at least guilty of a white-collar crime.

    What does this say about Obama the individual? I keep hearing terms like “acquaintances”, “chance encounters”, and “briefly worked with”. Are we to believe that this mans entire political career is just one big chance encounter after another – a series of unintentional brushes and associations? Decades of contacts with very questionable people (far more than listed here) are played down or not even discussed. I have a brother-in-law who has a job that requires that he have a security clearance. Do you know that if he had any kind of associations with the types of individuals listed above his security clearance would be revoked? If Obama was in law enforcement, even the insinuation of even a brief association with any such individuals would cost him his job. This is being played down by the media, when it is actually quite pivotal in our understanding of who Mr. Obama actually is.

    But more importantly – who will he surround himself with once in office (assuming he wins). If these are the types of people in his corner now, what sort of individuals will he appoint to his cabinet – what others will he appoint to various key positions throughout the government? Rains (ex-CEO of Fannie Mae) is an advisor on his campaign staff – and is quite literally at the epicenter of the origins of the financial crises you are now feeling in Europe. Can you imagine him being appointed the new Secretary of the Treasury? Can you imagine the long-term damage that could be done by someone who has proven himself to be so irresponsible?

    My feelings: TODAY WE SPECULATE ON GOVERNMENT CORRUPTION, TOMORROW THERE WILL BE NO DOUBT.

    Another Major concern was Senator Obamas actions while visiting Iraq. It was Reported in the Washington Post that Obama engaged the Iraqi Prime minister on the status of forces agreement (SOFA) and wanted them to hold off on its discussion, even going so far as to suggest the current administration should be left out. According to Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari, Obama made his demand for delay a key theme of his discussions with Iraqi leaders in Baghdad in July.

    "He asked why we were not prepared to delay an agreement until after the US elections and the formation of a new administration in Washington," Zebari said in an interview.

    Its important to understand that by starting this line of talk, Obama had strayed into the realm of international diplomacy – something he was not qualified for by any standards of either the US or the UN. While his Campaign staff downplayed the importance of it, they did admit that such conversations did take place.

    So what does this Mean?
    The simple fact that he brought up such lines of conversation (regardless of the extent) puts him in violation of the Logan Act – which brings a hefty fine, as well as 3 yrs of federal prison and the loss of his Senate seat. But the devil is in the details here: Depending on the depth and detail of this conversation he may well have committed an act of treason. If the Washington Post article, as well as the Iraqi Foreign Minister are to be believed – Obama specifically and directly tried to interfere with the discussion of military arrangements between the US and Iraq. What it comes down to is Mr. Obama – a sitting Senator of the US, may have attempted to undermine US foreign policy during a war. That, my friends, is treason…

    There is also the pressing question of his citizenship. Right now in Pennsylvania in the case of “Berg vs. Obama” courts are waiting for the Senator form Illinois to present his Birth Certificate and end all doubts. This isn’t an unrealistic task – you can’t even register your child for pre-school without their birth certificate, and there are many jobs that require a copy of your college transcripts (also mysteriously sealed), but listening to the Obama camp this is an outrageous request, bordering on blatant racism (according to some – I think its perfectly reasonable). He could end it all by showing it and proving that he was in fact, born in Hawaii. But he refuses, and his defense continues to file motions and run stall tactics. They even tried to have it thrown out, but the judge over-ruled and has asked him to hand over his vault certificate. He has yet to comply…

    Why does this matter?
    Some try to dismiss this as a mere technicality. It is – but it’s the mother of all technicalities! There’s a reason you must be a citizen to be the POTUS: we don’t want someone with split loyalties or conflicting international interests at the helm! If not a US citizen, he may still be a Kenyan – or more likely, he may be Indonesian. There is especially strong evidence for him being an Indonesian, as he was adopted by his step-father in Indonesia and his mother became a citizen as well, renouncing her US citizenship. Obama was a minor at the time (5 yrs old), so his citizenship would have transferred through his mother making him Indonesian as well. It is also known that he traveled to Pakistan on an Indonesian Visa as an Adult in the US. Anyone familiar with visa’s knows they are issued through the country of you’re citizenship. This would mean that even as an adult attending Columbia University in New York, he was an Indonesian Citizen – and unless he has gone through emigration since then he is still one today (making him an illegal alien, and incapable of holding his senate seat). Even if he has gone through emigration, he would be considered “naturalized” and not “natural born”. The major difference is that a “natural born” citizen knows no other national loyalty except that of his country. “Naturalized” is someone who becomes a citizen, but has origins else ware, and may have conflicting loyalties on different levels. This is why the constitution states that only a natural born citizen may be the president. Bottom line: Unless Senator Obama produces a legitimate Vault Certificate to the judge showing that he was born in Hawaii, and unless they can prove that he has never been a citizen of Indonesia, he doesn’t meet the requirements to be president of the US.

    You might disagree with this point, but honestly – would you want someone who was and ex-patriot from France or Spain replacing Gordon Brown? I’m sure many would question their true loyalties.

    For me, it all comes down to many unanswered questions about the man who may very well be leading my country. These are legitimate concerns about very real issues and inconsistencies with a major candidate that should be addressed immediately. Many are swept up in the idea of an AA being president, but in this excitement legitimate criticism is being swept away and even suppressed. Whenever a question is raised the response more often then not is “racism”, but Senator Obama’s camp is not being held to the same standards. In a recent Article from African Press International, Michele Obama accuses API (the ones doing the interview) of “colluding with American internet bloggers in an effort to bring down her husband,” Mrs Obama said she decided to call API because of what she termed, “API’s help to spread rumors created by American bloggers and other racist media outlets in their efforts to damage a black man’s name,” saying she “hopes African Media was mature enough to be in the front to give unwavering support to her husband, a man Africans should identify themselves with.”

    Why? All because they dared to ask a few simple questions. The article is filled with derogatory comments toward whites from Michele Obama (API Article) , but where is the outcry from the media?
    Their silence is deafening.

    And that has been the frustration of this campaign – one side is skewered for “racism” whenever they question their opponent, and the other is given the benefit of the doubt on virtually everything. As one blogger said after Palin was announced as McCains VP (and the ensuing firestorm of criticism) “We know more about Sarah Palin in two weeks than we know about Barak Obama in two years.”

    If there is one thing this election cycle has taught us, its that investigative journalism is truly dead and that there is a clear, powerful media bias to the left. Not in all of it (and there is some that lean to the right), but enough that will turn a blind eye to a popular Democratic candidate. Every day they don’t report on these serious issues they loose credibility. It is truly despicable what they have done, and it has not gone unnoticed.

    It is also commonly excepted that if Mr. Obama loses, it will all come down to simple white bigotry. I would like to point out that any one of the above issues would be enough to laugh any other candidate of any other race right out of the running and possibly into prison. The fact that he has all of this and is actually ahead in the polls is simply mind-boggling. I would also like to point out that the polls are inherently flawed, as they focus more on Urban communities like big cities(inherently left-leaning) and less on rural, small town communities – which actually makes up the bulk of the population.

    At this time in 2004, John Kerry was ahead of Bush by 10 points. Of course we know it wasn’t even close on election day, and Bush (unfortunately) won easily. Was that down to racism as well? Obviously not – but what it did reflect was the mistake of ignoring such a large bulk of the nation.


    This is what I feel about the current election. It is not done out of malice, but in an effort to address real concerns at a pivotal time in my countries existence. We are weaker now than we have ever been since the civil war, and many in government are likely to go along with just about anything to stop the hemorrhaging. I believe whoever wins this election will be pivotal in re-defining America and how the government itself operates.

    This is why I cannot in good conscious vote for Obama.

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  • 216. At 04:06am on 19 Oct 2008, lawchicago wrote:

    With 47 million Americans without health insurance, many losing their homes and the jobless rate and economy in the dumps why are some so concerned with tax rates ? If you make over $250,000 US you are the a rare breed, the rest of us are trying to hold on to home and hearth . It is an illusion to think that Obama or anyone else in the Democratic party is going to take it away . Whats left? Wall Street and the multi -nationals have done it already

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  • 217. At 09:03am on 19 Oct 2008, Francois17 wrote:

    Justin:

    "There is also the chance of a terrorist attack" Really? Must we feed the fear? Isn't the election about the divide that rests between fear and hope? Shouldn't we just let the politico's feed the fear factor on their own?

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  • 218. At 3:39pm on 19 Oct 2008, parklaneender wrote:

    The polls are a diversion - and not realistic. We'll probably get some unexplained swing on the eve of the election. On polling day they'll tell us what happened and go down as correct, like the weatherman who tells us there's a 30% chance of rain and then when it's raining tells us it is raining.

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  • 219. At 4:17pm on 19 Oct 2008, madeiraman57 wrote:

    Say what you like, but Obama has a definite, but fine line of Islamic blood in his veins.
    I believe that as the Election day dawns, this factor will tell against him as 'mainstream' USA
    and families with connections to GI Joe have a definite fear of all things Islamic !

    I also believe that the huge ' grey haired voters' , who are patriotic and always turn out to the Polls will definitely align themselves with McCain.
    It's never over till the fat lady sings !!

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  • 220. At 5:28pm on 19 Oct 2008, U4466131 wrote:

    #219 madeiraman57

    Quite terrifying the things that racists will say.....' a fine line of Islamic blood in his veins'.

    Islam is a religion not a racial type, I know Caucasians who are Muslims.

    Is this 'GI Joe' any relation to 'Joe the Plumber'?

    I hope the grey haired ones who are my generation will remember their 60's principles and do no such thing as vote for McCain/Pitbull.

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  • 221. At 6:49pm on 19 Oct 2008, Scribesolomon wrote:

    I regret to inform you that in my comment#208, I had inadvertently left behind the words: 'anti-Bush democrats' of a new line I wanted to start, but decided against at the last moment. So,
    please ignore the words, 'anti-Bush Democrats' at the very end in case it is
    misconstrued.

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