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The Vice-Presidential Debate - Live

Justin Webb | 01:47 UK time, Friday, 3 October 2008

Hi

I'll be live-blogging tonight's vice-presidential debate between Sarah Palin and Joe Biden. I do hope you join me.

Before I start, I cannot resist a thought about Gwen Ifill and her book.

What were they all thinking? Of course she should not be the moderator. She has written a positive book about the political forces that brought one of the main candidates to the fore and she stands to profit from his elevation. Duh?

For a nation stuffed with "professors" of journalism (again, guys, not a serious academic subject in my book) this really does seem to be an elementary mistake...

Now - on to the debate (and please do refresh the page regularly to read my updates).

2005: Palin is on fire! She darts across the stage and wants to know if she can call him Joe! She can! Round one to her.

2006: Biden's first answer on the bail out is nice and dull - just how he wants to keep it.

2009: Thanks to John McCain all is OK, Palin claims. She survives her first answer. Neither answers the question by the way, but apparently no-one cares about that.

2010: She is doing fine but it looks so staged. Will it convince Joe Six Pack?

2011: Well done Gwen! She points out they don't answer the questions - they giggle. So what.

2014: She mentioned Joe (Six Pack) - and managed a good answer about Wall St greed - populist but not shrill. Biden is telling a story about filling a tank of gas. Don't know why.

2017: "I may not answer the questions, but I want to talk straight to the American people," she says! And leaps into a prepared spiel. Gosh yes, let's ditch the questions.

2019: Joe Biden talks about "the people listening to this broadcast" - does he not know TV has been invented? Old codger alert.

2023: She does not try to come back to Biden on healthcare, and they are on to the next question.

2025: What promises have you made that you cannot keep? That is the question. It is almost surreal - neither of them even pretend to answer. Maybe Gwen is too busy writing her book to notice...

2027: She is completely at sea when Gwen notices that she hasn't answered and asks her to give it a go. She does not. Insulting, frankly, to any serious viewer.

2030: Oh dear - we have John McCain to thank for too much of what Palin is saying, I suspect, for it to be entirely credible. She describes herself as a Main-Streeter. I wonder about that. You need to be connected to Main Street, but not necessarily from it to run for high office.

2031: Biden is waffling - but, oh dear, she is off again on energy, with no apology for failing even to nod at the question. She is off the reservation.

2032: Palin on the impact of climate change: "I am not one to attribute every activity of man to changes in the climate". Eh?

2035: Biden says climate change is man made - yikes. Not sure there are votes in such certainty, but at least he knows what he thinks.

2036: She is equally committed to drilling for oil - again it's a sensitive one.

2039: They are on to gay rights now - this is an opportunity to show a gentler side and a more inclusive one - very important to middle-ground voters. She says she is tolerant. Hmm - Not of witches...

2041: No support for gay marriage from either candidate. She looks uncomfortable.

2046: He really has destroyed her on the war. She has slogans. He can talk about it.

2049: Can she manage to pick her way through the hills of Pakistan and Afghanistan now? Biden can and does and threatens again to attack Bin Laden in Pakistan. Palin is back to memorised sound bites on Iran.

2056: She has made no mistakes except that she doesn't appear to know much about anything. Is this a problem? Biden is off again on the Middle East - but Joe, there is such a thing as too much detail. Gaza, Lebanon, Hamas, West Bank, East Bank (only kidding).

2057: There have been huge blunders, she says - and now a memorized piece about looking forward not back.

2059: Great riff from Biden on McCain being like Bush in various areas of foreign policy. She has no answer. Literally.

2105: She comes back for the first time - on Afghanistan - with a decent answer. She challenges his interpretation of what the general said about the idea of a surge in Afghanistan. Biden looks surprised.

2106: Cute jab from her on the war - accusing Biden of being for the war before he was against it. Great line that - it still hurts Democrats. Where detailed knowledge is unnecessary she is sparkly and almost convincing.

2108: Oh my: "John McCain knows what Evil is"! This is an argument? Barmy.

2115: Wow - Biden says he would do everything Obama would do, but she veers off and makes it plain she and McCain disagree and she and he are happy with that. This is a positive:- she sounds much more like a proper politician. But also a negative as it draws attention to the fact that she might become president.

2117: Joe Biden just sounding a little full of Joe Biden now. This is the danger for him.

2122: What is your Achilles heel? Palin says she does not have one. She is off on another memorized rant - "shining city on a hill" etc. He is as bad. Oh dear. Someone interrupt them!

2125: Biden almost cries talking about his awful tragic past. Did he plan this? I wonder... "We have got to win the war," she says, before embarking on another rant. ANSWER THE QUESTION.

2126: Biden has done us at least one service tonight anyway - he is off on a "McCain is no maverick" attack. Much better at it than Obama.

2128: The last two questions are idiotic, just allowing the candidates to waffle. And Joe does, with a story about how wonderful he is. Oh no - they may have to over-run.

Conclusion: Again, my overall view of these is that they are rendered dreadful by weak moderation and pathetic questioning. Biden did better tonight, no serious person could deny that he avoided some of the big pitfalls (sexism and bloviating) and scored some bit hits. I thought perhaps that she came over as slightly more amiable - talking about her inclusive family with a variety of views - than she has in the past and that might help her.

But although she can memorise things, she plainly does not know them. Does that matter?

At the end she looks like his daughter ,but what is going on with her voice? It cuts glass.


Comments

  • 1. At 02:06am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    Palin's opening statemnet..she looked nervous and, frankly didn't say anything, just rambled on about..er...what??..can't find a point in it.

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  • 2. At 02:09am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    her rebuttal to why McC changed from great economy at 9am to crisis at 11am...just waffle...didn't answer the question, again...

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  • 3. At 02:13am on 03 Oct 2008, OldSouth wrote:

    Re Gwen Ifill: She never disclosed to the Debate Commission that she had thebook underway!

    The rank dishonesty of this woman in continuing in this role, and the cowardice of the Debate Commission in allowing her to appear, tells us much of what we need to know about the Left, and the Debate Commission!

    First question: Biden bloviates and blames, Palin gets to the point!

    Second: Skew him, Sarah!! She turns Biden's 'out of touch' to her advantage.

    Third: Causes of The Problem: Biden scores points, Palin on Obama's love of taxes.

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  • 4. At 02:14am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    It appears Biden is looking at Palin, with a smile...like, wow..she hasn't a look, crooked smile

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  • 5. At 02:17am on 03 Oct 2008, deamon138 wrote:

    Biden's plan seems to be to talk about helping the "middle class" every question. Most ordinary people like to think they are middle class so this should go down well.

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  • 6. At 02:19am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    $5000 tax credit for health care...hmmm..and what does that cover...a plaster on the knee...or a strong paracetomol....excellent if you fall over and bump your head...but nowt else.

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  • 7. At 02:21am on 03 Oct 2008, deamon138 wrote:

    Lol @ Bridge to nowhere!

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  • 8. At 02:25am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    Palin is smiling and talking and talking, words are coming out...but what does it mean...??...what point is she making..???

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  • 9. At 02:27am on 03 Oct 2008, OldSouth wrote:

    8:15 Why are not these tax increases not 'Class Warfare'? He says 'Fairness'--so if we work like crazy and make incomes, our reward is higher taxes! Hmmm, if we work less hard, we make more money by playing the marginal tax rate game.

    Palin hits him on redistribution of wealth dogma, reminds him that increased taxes destroy jobs.

    8:18 Health-care coverage--Palin's point about the Feds running health-care is a good one.

    Biden defends redistribution as 'fairness'--hitting on class resentment. Ditto on health-care, playing on resentments again.

    The hairdresser I'm sitting in the room with notes that Biden sounds angry, and threw her a disdainful look with his 'Bridge to Nowhere' crack. She says; 'That will COST him!'.

    8:23 Biden bloviates about 'patriotism', Palin talks about taking on oil companies on behalf of Alaska.

    My hairdresser friend really getting PO'ed at Biden's attitude.

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  • 10. At 02:27am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    #5
    yes Biden keeps mentiing middle class
    and Palin keeps saying corruption, greed as well as bringing the conversation around to her comfort zone..talking about a small town admin in alaska

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  • 11. At 02:29am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    Palin doesn't want to answer a question..she is now steering all her replies back to energy....

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  • 12. At 02:31am on 03 Oct 2008, deamon138 wrote:

    What the heck? She just basically said, "I don't wanna answer that question: I'm gonna talk about energy".



    drilling for oil


    And as for global warming, she doesn't want to argue about the causes, because she knows it will be total FAIL for her.

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  • 13. At 02:32am on 03 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    The mistress of the non-answer! No need for a moderator/chair!

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  • 14. At 02:35am on 03 Oct 2008, bulldogus wrote:

    Its become clear that Palin has a 'monkey script' that she is reading. She hasn't answered a single question directly..Oh and by the way she says 'Darn' quite a lot !

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  • 15. At 02:38am on 03 Oct 2008, OldSouth wrote:

    8:27 A question about bankruptcy? Biden wants courts to be able to alter not just interest but principal of mortgages. Patently unconstitutional, won't pass the 'smell test' in court.

    8:29 Palin talks about energy independence, allowing states with energy to develop resources.

    8:30 Climate change--Palin sees some human impact, some natural causes. Back to energy independence--how we import from polluters.

    8:32 Biden sees it all as man-made. He wants US to 'invest' in clean-energy. But that's another government spending program--with what money after the Wall Street bailout?

    8:35 Palin goes hard onto the point about drilling--lots of oil and gas available.
    Remember, folks, the Democrats left Washington without lifting the drilling ban, when gas was $4.50 a gallon!

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  • 16. At 02:38am on 03 Oct 2008, deamon138 wrote:

    She supports "Relationships they deem *sneers* best for themselves"

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  • 17. At 02:41am on 03 Oct 2008, deamon138 wrote:

    Can someone please tell me how winning in Iraq will affect success in Afghanistan? They don't even share borders!

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  • 18. At 02:42am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    Biden

    Obama and I agree fully on one thing....hmmm..does this mean he doesn't agree with everything else?....gaff??

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  • 19. At 02:43am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    Palin
    your proposal is a white flag of surrunder...oh jezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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  • 20. At 02:47am on 03 Oct 2008, Sir-Jaymore-Sterling wrote:

    I feel nervous for Palin. She does not deserve this. I hope it's a draw, do not think she has any thing to offer other than prepared scripts. She appears as if she can't string together a convincing believable argument that would appear to stem from her.

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  • 21. At 02:48am on 03 Oct 2008, bulldogus wrote:

    I love listening to Republicans go on about Energy and 'drill drill drill'. Historicall, that has never ever benefited the American people.
    I live in Texas and over 90% of the American oil companies have rigs here, we have tonnes of oil. So why does it still cost a fortune to fill our gas tanks. How is getting more oil for the oil companies going to make it easier and cheaper for the average joe ?
    It's never going to be cheaper and its never going to benefit Americans no matter how much oil we find on our shores !

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  • 22. At 02:48am on 03 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    nukuler nukuler! butn she's almost got Ahmadinejhad OK

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  • 23. At 02:49am on 03 Oct 2008, deamon138 wrote:

    Palin said, "We can't let Ahmadinejad get nuclear weapons and NUCLEAR ENERGY"

    What? Clearly they just want Iran to burn all the fossil fuels...

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  • 24. At 02:49am on 03 Oct 2008, Sir-Jaymore-Sterling wrote:

    I'm starting to lose faith in democracy.

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  • 25. At 02:49am on 03 Oct 2008, apkeeley wrote:

    Did Palin just say Iran should not have nuclear power at all?

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  • 26. At 02:49am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    Iran is dangerous...and oh...statements from Obama are dangerous...oh, everyone is dangerous.

    Our tolerance...our freedoms...so, where is the tolerance for other countries and respecting their cultures?

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  • 27. At 02:49am on 03 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Are you watching Tina Fey?

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  • 28. At 02:50am on 03 Oct 2008, Kayvels84 wrote:

    Even as a US citizen I'm not sure why we have the gall to produce humiliating reality television shows of people screaming at each other, and yet are apparently too polite to our politicians to pin them down and force them to directly answer our questions....

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  • 29. At 02:52am on 03 Oct 2008, OldSouth wrote:

    8:38 Sarah is forthright about gay marriage, Biden tries to create wiggle room. My hairdresser is crying out--'You watch out there, Joe, you're Catholic, you're playing with fire..'

    8:42 Sarah goes after Joe, reminding him the surge worked, and that a statutory deadline is a 'White flag of surrender'.

    Joe is trying to say that McCain doesn't support the troops! Not convincing...

    My hairdresser pounding the table in disgust...
    she is the profile of someone should be in the tank for BHO...why isn't she? She doesn't know I'm blogging, by the way.

    8:45 Nuclear Iran: Joe talks about Afghanistan and Pakistan, she talks about Iran and Israel, and pounds Obama about offering to meet without precondition.

    8:49 Hairdresser says--'She's relaxing, she's becoming herself.

    8:50 Biden--'The President of Iran doesn't control Iran, the theocracy does', and 'Obama never said that...'

    Hairdresser says--'Oh yes he did!' She knows Biden is lying.

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  • 30. At 02:52am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    A two state solution, is the solution.

    Israel...a peace seeking nation....hmm..try telling the Palestinians that!

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  • 31. At 02:53am on 03 Oct 2008, Sir-Jaymore-Sterling wrote:

    I'm looking through my fingers. It reminds me of times at Uni where I waffled through some essays. Funnily I passed :o)

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  • 32. At 02:53am on 03 Oct 2008, rhodie27 wrote:

    Palin's thje way forward......

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  • 33. At 02:55am on 03 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    I'm so glad we both love Israel!

    YUKKK!

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  • 34. At 02:55am on 03 Oct 2008, Candace9839 wrote:

    Phillies won Game 2 of the playoff against the Brewers! Back to hear a strong Biden on Israel and Palin piling on glittering generalities of "change".

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  • 35. At 02:56am on 03 Oct 2008, Sir-Jaymore-Sterling wrote:

    Biden is starting to look like a smartass though. He should lighten up, and throw in some God bless America, and America is great. Keep it simple stupid

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  • 36. At 02:56am on 03 Oct 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    2019: Joe Biden talks about "the people listening to this broadcast" - does he not know TV has been invented? Old codger alert.

    On the contrary, the debate, such as it is, is being carried on radio as well as television.

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  • 37. At 02:56am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    There are huge blunders in this administration...as there are with all....ergo, she will also make huge blunders...why vote for huge blunders?

    Biden finally has the courage to say....what is Plain saying that is different?

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  • 38. At 02:56am on 03 Oct 2008, Sir-Jaymore-Sterling wrote:

    hahahahahahahaha lol.....

    :o)

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  • 39. At 02:57am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    She has been practicing her naming names of leaders of rogue nations...10/10 and mentions them as much as possible as if that qualifies everything..., but for comprehension of such...0/10

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  • 40. At 02:58am on 03 Oct 2008, Sir-Jaymore-Sterling wrote:

    Could be a recital actually.

    I think there should be a military take over and no more elections. This grueling.

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  • 41. At 02:59am on 03 Oct 2008, bulldogus wrote:

    The 'surge policies' that worked in Iraq will work in Afghanistan'.......

    Sarah have you been living under an Iceberg, oh wait you do live in..........

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  • 42. At 03:01am on 03 Oct 2008, Sir-Jaymore-Sterling wrote:

    ooops Biden nearly slipped there. I say draw. She's an attractive female, I'd watch her in a sitcom. I swear.

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  • 43. At 03:01am on 03 Oct 2008, justcorbly wrote:

    Almost entirely BS from Palin so far. That will appeal to people who can't tell the difference between BS and a legitimate answer.

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  • 44. At 03:01am on 03 Oct 2008, deamon138 wrote:

    @25 Yes she did. Sigh. And I agree with #24 as well, I am starting to think that this year represents a failure of democracy in America if she gets in, just like this year represents a failure of laissez-faire capitalism.

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  • 45. At 03:02am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    Palin has been well coached, but it is all repetition for each question....like the needle is stuck in a groove and the record....that's before CDs and digital tape!!!

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  • 46. At 03:04am on 03 Oct 2008, Alaskajackobox wrote:

    Does she always avoid the question or am I taking crazy pills?

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  • 47. At 03:04am on 03 Oct 2008, Sir-Jaymore-Sterling wrote:

    Biden Iraq vote. mmmmmm seems like a fudge to me. So you voted for war bur not really for war okay, if you say so.

    :o)

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  • 48. At 03:04am on 03 Oct 2008, OldSouth wrote:

    Israel question: Both in support--Biden promises difference, but no specifics.

    Hairdresser wants Sarah to really go after Joe.

    8:57 Nukes again--Afghanistan again--double down on Afghanistan. Pulling up Obama's quotes about air raids on villages.

    Joe goes after John on nuke treaty.

    Sarah doesn't let Joe get away with his misquote of the commander in Afghanistan.

    It's a draw here...

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  • 49. At 03:04am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    She is making a mockery of serious debate, it is all rather insulting...it is just monologue, again!

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  • 50. At 03:07am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    McC knows how to win a war...he knows what evil is....so what is it?
    Well, if he is that omnipotent, why doesn't he tell the current administration how to "win the war" and be done with it...if it is that simple?

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  • 51. At 03:08am on 03 Oct 2008, Candace9839 wrote:

    McCain's cheerleader seems to be struggling on war issues in general and the voting records. Ooh ooh Bush doctrine...she probably studied that one...

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  • 52. At 03:09am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    #46...agreed....i haven't heard her answer one single question yet..!!

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  • 53. At 03:09am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    opppss..she back onto greed and corruption...yawn

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  • 54. At 03:09am on 03 Oct 2008, Candace9839 wrote:

    Nope, still glittering generalities on Wasilla mainstreet

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  • 55. At 03:09am on 03 Oct 2008, Sir-Jaymore-Sterling wrote:

    Okay I give in, I'll just watch it as entertainment. Sarah Palin is either acting or is just showing that Alaska is an insignificant state.

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  • 56. At 03:11am on 03 Oct 2008, Sir-Jaymore-Sterling wrote:

    Why isnt she answering any of the questions.

    I'm not missing anything, this is a debate right?

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  • 57. At 03:12am on 03 Oct 2008, Candace9839 wrote:

    Good comeback by Biden and Palin gets cute. Teachers now and no comeback on economy other than that was Bush (and not McCain?)

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  • 58. At 03:13am on 03 Oct 2008, deamon138 wrote:

    Palin: "Her reward is in heaven".

    But not here on earth then? Is that the crux of Palin's policies: don't help out people when they're alive, trust in an imaginary being to reward you when you die? Okayyyyyy.....

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  • 59. At 03:13am on 03 Oct 2008, deamon138 wrote:

    She wants more authority?!


    God help us all!!

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  • 60. At 03:14am on 03 Oct 2008, Sir-Jaymore-Sterling wrote:

    I remember in primary school some kids used to read like that. Notice how the eyes close, a lot of her lines are memorized.

    Must admit she has a good memory, cramming all of that wow. Not sure she can make sense of it though.

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  • 61. At 03:14am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    OMG....those 3rd graders get extra credit for watching this debate....puulllleezzzzz

    This is just so comical, is this really what current serious political debate in the US is like....the founding fathers will be turning in their graves

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  • 62. At 03:14am on 03 Oct 2008, Candace9839 wrote:

    Palin back to energy independence? Red herring, back to education by Biden.

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  • 63. At 03:15am on 03 Oct 2008, Yokota1980 wrote:

    Palin is holding her own. Biden is faded and jaded. I'm for a fresh face. Obama had potential, but Biden is not an asset.

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  • 64. At 03:15am on 03 Oct 2008, bulldogus wrote:

    She must be related to Michael Palin, because this is looking more and more like a Monty Python sketch..................

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  • 65. At 03:15am on 03 Oct 2008, Kayvels84 wrote:

    I still believe in democracy. Frankly, if we want things to change then it is the responsibility of the people to put more pressure on the people in political power. We can't expect the practical expression of our ideals for government to correct themselves on their own. If, as United States citizens, our candidates appear ridiculous to the rest of the world, it only reveals that we have been lazy about keeping our own elected officials accountable to us.

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  • 66. At 03:16am on 03 Oct 2008, Alaskajackobox wrote:

    REALL? ARE WE SERIOUSLY GIVEING SHOUT OUTS TO 3RD GRADERS DURING A VICE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE? This isn't a local Wasilla radio station!

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  • 67. At 03:16am on 03 Oct 2008, Candace9839 wrote:

    Gwen Ifill is doing a fine job. Fast pace and Palin has not said anything specific.

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  • 68. At 03:16am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    desperate house wife's has gloss, narrative and endless meandering and nowt else.....sound familiar?

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  • 69. At 03:17am on 03 Oct 2008, Sir-Jaymore-Sterling wrote:

    Hey help me here, couldnt she just sneak in the whole textbook. That why she would answer every question correctly. Sure she could hide it there me thinks.

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  • 70. At 03:19am on 03 Oct 2008, deamon138 wrote:

    OldSouth said, "My hairdresser friend really getting PO'ed at Biden's attitude."

    Then said, "Hairdresser wants Sarah to really go after Joe."

    Tell your hairdresser friend she's a hypocrite.


    Oh and Palin said, "Being a mum... how are we gonna pay those tuition fees?"

    Yes Sarah, how are people going to pay for their fees? Have an answer? Didn't think so.

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  • 71. At 03:19am on 03 Oct 2008, Sir-Jaymore-Sterling wrote:

    Go on girl wink at me, you dont need to answer the questions, you are governor Palin.

    :o)

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  • 72. At 03:21am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    Biden...ops...almost chocked up...is that his HRC moment??...is that the "money shot" to seal the deal??

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  • 73. At 03:22am on 03 Oct 2008, Candace9839 wrote:

    Can Palin be any more trivial? Biden has specifics and his delivery is very good.

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  • 74. At 03:22am on 03 Oct 2008, Sir-Jaymore-Sterling wrote:

    I'm gonna do it. I cant take anymore of this. I'm gonna go smash my car.

    :o)

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  • 75. At 03:25am on 03 Oct 2008, Sir-Jaymore-Sterling wrote:

    Win the wars. Oh it's that simple.. wow. If only the rest of the world knew. Come on repeat after me. We will win the wars. We will stop Iran. We will stop Russia. Dont ask how just repeat after me.

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  • 76. At 03:25am on 03 Oct 2008, Candace9839 wrote:

    Biden brought up Supreme Court appointees. Good move.

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  • 77. At 03:26am on 03 Oct 2008, spice_of_life wrote:

    What is she talking about? She agrees on Biden's view of homosexual marriage, which is allowing it constitutionally, but she disagrees with same sex marriage...what? She's just talking in circles.

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  • 78. At 03:29am on 03 Oct 2008, deamon138 wrote:

    Palin, "I like being able to answer these tough questions"

    Are you sure? Because I don't remember any answers.

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  • 79. At 03:30am on 03 Oct 2008, Sir-Jaymore-Sterling wrote:

    Okay folks I'm off to Alaska. I think I'm more than capable of running that state. Anyone want any contracts. Put forward your proposals please.

    huh ..... hahaha.. lol... "I like to answer these tough questions without the filter of the media"

    :O)

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  • 80. At 03:30am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    ...as long as we work for the greater good..it's all gonna be ok.

    Wow, how insightful...this is stunning, refreshing and intelligent....why didn't I think of this.

    She loves to answer the tough questions...so what hasn't she answered any then??

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  • 81. At 03:31am on 03 Oct 2008, spice_of_life wrote:

    Palin never met Biden before this debate? Really? That just goes to accentuate her inexperience in federal politics.

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  • 82. At 03:31am on 03 Oct 2008, Candace9839 wrote:

    Palin is wandering again in her closing statement. Biden is laying it out one more time. Nice shot on tax breaks for Exxon Mobile.

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  • 83. At 03:33am on 03 Oct 2008, Sir-Jaymore-Sterling wrote:

    Relief.............................. Phew! It's over.

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  • 84. At 03:35am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    Thank god it is all over.
    Palin did well, ...she just tread-ed water...she survived..But as for a serious debate...hopeless. No substance

    Biden wasn't shinning either...but at least you know he has some knowledge on subjects

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  • 85. At 03:35am on 03 Oct 2008, deamon138 wrote:

    Come on BBC News 24: criticize her. She was awful. No huge gaffes true, but then no answers either.

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  • 86. At 03:36am on 03 Oct 2008, Candace9839 wrote:

    No blunder by Palin? Hard to blunder on glittering generalities. Biden was knowledgeable and spoke well.

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  • 87. At 03:42am on 03 Oct 2008, apkeeley wrote:

    This was uninspiring to say the least. Sen. Biden manged for the most part to answer questions but at times strayed to simplistic platitudes. Gov. Palin answered few questions and ultimately said very little. Very few surprises, and I doubt anyone's mind was changed or the election was "swung" one way or another.

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  • 88. At 03:42am on 03 Oct 2008, wanderingangus wrote:



    That was amazing !

    My ears are ringing after listening to that voice for 90 minutes - and she was still screeching at the end after they'd finished (and omg they both brought all the children on stage. Why DO Americans do this?)

    John McCain made a crazy choice. Is an insult to the electorate.

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  • 89. At 03:43am on 03 Oct 2008, spice_of_life wrote:

    Biden did well and far surpassed Palin on almost all of the issues. To make it fair, no Republican would've won the war issues...or the economic issues...or the most of the other issues put forth by the moderator. Palin did well on reinforcing the Republican's faith in her, and Biden did well on smashing McCain.

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  • 90. At 03:44am on 03 Oct 2008, Sir-Jaymore-Sterling wrote:

    I'm thinking of going back to University, does anyone know how I can get these analyst from CNN and BBC to asses my debates and essays, I think I'll pass with flying colours.

    :o)

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  • 91. At 03:44am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    #85
    agreed...Katty Kay et al, are sounding like typical US mainstream networks, afraid to give criticism. It was hopeless, just say so...she stood, looked pretty, smiled and survived...but had zero substance and failed to answer questions....just say it...we wont bite!

    Just popped over to CNN..they attempted to criticise her performance, well one person did.

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  • 92. At 03:45am on 03 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    It wasn't a debate at all, was it? Nearly all pre-prepared statements. She was obviously well-coached; even to the extent that she wouldn't respond to questions she didn't have an answer to.

    But she came out with all the right slogans, and you can see from responses that pro-Republicans will say she won; pro-Democrats that Biden did.

    My view is that Biden was more knowledgeable and competent. (From the views of R5 listeners a lot of Brits agree.) But we keep being told it's about performance, not policies. Sad.

    No gaffes. Oh bother.

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  • 93. At 03:45am on 03 Oct 2008, trefire wrote:

    OldSouth, give reality a break, Gwen Ifill didn't "reveal" her book because she was INTERVIEWED about it, it is in Amazon already and it was a known fact for a long time. Just because McCain pretended to not know this until the last minute so that he could rally the unthinking faithful.

    And the blogger commenting on the debate: it was a debate which, by definition, do not reveal anything new or revealing about the competitors. Granted we don't have the towering intellectuals that Britain has like Brown or Tony Blinton or you for example, but your stunning (or "brilliant" as you in the UK use so often) poo-pooing repartee missed the mark both in humo(u)r and in analysis of what was going on.

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  • 94. At 03:46am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    "...Conclusion: Again, my overall view of these is that they are rendered dreadful by weak moderation and pathetic questioning..."

    Spot on...just like the main debate a few days ago. What is the point of all this...it is meaningless diatribe

    Get Tim Sebastian...he'll sort them out.

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  • 95. At 03:46am on 03 Oct 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    Has anyone else noticed how white both candidates'
    teeth appear to be? They must use a special
    "political" toothpaste.

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  • 96. At 03:48am on 03 Oct 2008, wanderingangus wrote:



    She certainly has a slightly manic quality - and as McCain has also been showing some signs of mental disturbance recently - they'd make a fine pair in the White House.

    Is there is a nice little island that someone could recommend in the pacific ?

    BTW - Amtrak Joe did fine.

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  • 97. At 03:49am on 03 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    Hang on a minute. Neither of them addressed this little matter of the financial crisis, did they?

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  • 98. At 03:49am on 03 Oct 2008, OldSouth wrote:

    9:05 Biden just reiterated The Bush Doctrine!!--that we have the right to intervene anywhere we find the bad guys!

    9:07 Fair question--If the unthinkable happens, how would your administration differ?

    Biden: Stump speech--but refutes the Bush Doctrine now!

    Palin: He has never asked me to check my opinions at the door. Tries to appeal to Main Street...tries to appeal to optimism, but sounds too scripted.

    Biden refutes: He tries to appeal to Main Street based on resentment.

    Palin tries the 'There you go again' line--doesn't work. There is only one Reagan.

    9:14 Hairdresser is with her client...has her radio on, wonder what she's thinking?

    Role of the VP?

    Joe acts Senatorial. Sarah can't, because she hasn't done that yet. Joe wins on this one.

    Constitutional question--Sarah doesn't sound comfortable on this one. Biden defines VP as only executive, sounds comfortable.

    9:22 Experience--Sarah reads her list, identity with Middle America, identity with Reagan, reforming. Biden is self-deprecating, comes across well here, identity with Middle America, very effective.
    He takes the offensive on McCain--but every example he quotes is where McCain voted against another spending program.

    Why won't she just say THAT?

    9:25 Summing up
    Judicial appointments--Biden boasts of his attacks on Judge Bork--red meat to the left--a shameful episode in our history.

    Palin--working together the theme.

    9:27
    Partisanship--Biden says don't question motives.

    Sarah says--inclusiveness and inviting others in.

    9:29
    Sarah says fight for Middle Class('I feel your pain'), and fight for freedom, calls upon Reagan. Wants to be certain to talk past the press to the constituency.

    Joe plays the resentment card again, and a 'God protect our troops' to end. Melodrama, not too convincing.

    ******

    Hairdresser comes back and concludes:

    She's the real thing, and he isn't!

    How does BHO win against this sentiment?
    She'll end up voting for the bottom half of the GOP ticket over either half of the Dem ticket.

    Hmm...


    (Gwen had to behave herself tonight--had she not been exposed, the behaviour would have been much different, I'm certain.)

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  • 99. At 03:50am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    Interviewer on CNN just asked a republican (woman) why she thinks Palin did well....I couldn't stop laughing...she mimicked Palin in every way...she didn't answer the question and rambled, the interviewer almost felt sorry for her ..was like a rabbit being caught in the headlights...wow what an effect Palin has

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  • 100. At 03:51am on 03 Oct 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    Why were they allowed crib notes on their respective lecterns? Both seemed to waffle while they were checking for their cards. In the Obama-Clinton debates, neither candidate had visual assistance, but spoke about what they knew.

    Palin managed to get through it without any obvious blunders and her smile, wink and directness to the camera may have been a plus for her admirers, but probably few else. Biden was not particularly effective in my view but at least had the virtue of knowing his subject.

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  • 101. At 03:52am on 03 Oct 2008, Sir-Jaymore-Sterling wrote:

    As somebody that has always kept faith in democracy. This feels devastatingly embarrassing.

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  • 102. At 03:53am on 03 Oct 2008, DougTexan wrote:

    Palin did well as did Biden, kind of wish they were together on a ticket.

    Whatever you want to think about Biden, he was a gentleman, respectfull, honest and educated. Talked of himslf in the third person, e.g. "Obama and Biden will..."

    On the world, who dcares they're vp's for petes sake. On personallity and shock value,.. Palin, on knowlege and presence,.. Biden, not equal but definitly a draw, no bounce for either.

    Read all about in the morning,.. G' night and America is still on task.

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  • 103. At 03:56am on 03 Oct 2008, regular_josephina wrote:

    The only unscripted answer Palin gave was the one on global warming, which she flubbed and got it gramatically wrong as well as scientifically wrong. Due to the cyclicar climate changes of our planet, aren't we due for another ice age?

    I can't vote for somebody that has to avoid the media, and gives scripted answers when confronted.

    Palin is trouble, which makes me question McCain's judgement irrevocably... I'm usually republican, but I'm voting democrat.

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  • 104. At 03:59am on 03 Oct 2008, Ptrsln wrote:

    Reading Justin's comments, I'm happy I chose to watch the Canadian Leaders' debate instead (in fact the last comment by the moderator was that this debate was way better than Biden vs Palin). Our leaders have their rehearsed lines as well, but it doesn't take up the whole debate!

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  • 105. At 04:00am on 03 Oct 2008, spice_of_life wrote:

    This coming election will be interesting to say the least. It could either make the world's view of the USA drop significantly, or possibly raise it slightly, if at all. To tell the truth, I'm a registered Independent, and I would much rather have Obama become president than McCain. What the US needs now is a "calm down and think about what to do" period, and not just another "let's do things because we can" term that McCain would give. I think that Biden did well on accentuating that fact. Palin on the other hand, had no defense against, or answers for, any of his points/counter-points.

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  • 106. At 04:00am on 03 Oct 2008, Sir-Jaymore-Sterling wrote:

    Laughing stock of the World comes to mind. I'm sure China and Russia are laughing and saying heck you guys can keep your democracy, we'll do just fine.

    hihihi :o)

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  • 107. At 04:00am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    #95
    Hey, i want some of that toothpaste ;)

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  • 108. At 04:03am on 03 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    92, british-ish.

    "It wasn't a debate at all, was it? Nearly all pre-prepared statements. She was obviously well-coached; even to the extent that she wouldn't respond to questions she didn't have an answer to."

    People are surprised that I don't watch the "debates." Prescripted. Boring. Completely predictable. Too long. The only high point would have been if she mispronounced another word. Did she?

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  • 109. At 04:05am on 03 Oct 2008, RhodyDiver wrote:

    I'm watching analysis on NBC....they seem to think Palin won! Saying how good it is that Biden won't be debating again. I can't speak for anyone else, but it bothers me to no end that she can just avoid questions on topics she clearly knows nothing about, and people are cool with that??

    I'm shocked.

    And I think it would've helped for Biden to explain that giving tax cuts across the board to everyone (as McCain wants) without cutting the budget will just increase our debt. Just arguing about who cuts taxes more doesn't explain the bigger picture.

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  • 110. At 04:05am on 03 Oct 2008, U12831485 wrote:

    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

  • 111. At 04:06am on 03 Oct 2008, deamon138 wrote:

    @94

    Personally, I wish they'd recruited Paxman to be the moderator.

    Palin vs Paxman. Pure pure hilarity that would be!

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  • 112. At 04:09am on 03 Oct 2008, OldSouth wrote:

    And my hairdresser says:

    Obama doesn't want to BE President, he just wants to win the Presidency.

    I was pulling for Hillary, she's bright.

    Obama is dangerous, and the people who place most hope in him (the blacks) will be the ones left out. His wife is crazy and mean. He's just another version of Reverend Wright!

    If Colin Powell were running, I'd vote for him in a heartbeat.

    (Trying to keep up with her...)

    Obama's doing all the stuff Hitler did, he's like Jim Jones, going after the young people(her words, not mine).

    *****

    The hairdresser is not a political junkie--probably votes Democrat most of the time, and is deeply deeply offended by what she sees in the character of Obama. It's not about his skin color, it's about the content of his character.

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  • 113. At 04:12am on 03 Oct 2008, sydnesurfer wrote:

    I couldn't help but chuckle when she said "there you go again" to Biden, this was an obvious attempt to sound like Reagan in what was probably a game changing moment in 1980. I don't think it worked. Biden's tears were good. What is this and americans talking about their freedom all the time? to bring it up in an election debate is bizarre, as if America will not be a free nation regardless of who wins the election. Interesting note I guess is that people are probably less free under Bush than they were under Clinton.

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  • 114. At 04:12am on 03 Oct 2008, meminmk wrote:

    Well that was immensely illuminating.

    Managed to stay up and watch it, nearly 4am here now and thanks to CNN, CNBC, Fox (ha!), BBC and Sky I did get some post excitement quotes from ....errr whoever they were.

    Firstly, who comes up with the format ad those questions - "let's see, how can we ask something that anyone with an IQ above 10 can waffle around?". They were awful and there seemed no pretence at trying to keep them on track. Also Palin seemed proud to not even attempt to answer.

    Were they reading from notes? They seemed to refer down a lot and I didn't see a whole of writing especially from the Gov.

    Did she actually answer everything or was it just a an opportunity to bring out her best (?) diatribes? Also. All the folksy, homespun, apple pie rubbish did remind me of Ronnie Raygun and I guess that didn't do him any harm though. Also. Do people actually buy it? Also.

    It seems that rabid Republicans thought she did fine, most others weren't too impressed. That surely won't win new votes will it?

    The CNN line on supposed Ohio Uncommitteds was good. Sadly it had a men/women split this time so the underlying Dem/Rep bias couldn't be factored. But, Joe definitely had a clear lead on positive ratings for both men and women for most of the time.

    Finally, for all their preparation time and schooling, and the fact that I'm here and missing most of what's happening and happenend in the sunny US of A did either of them come up with much that I couldn't have done, expect some clearly researched negative stats on voting etc?

    Regards all

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  • 115. At 04:16am on 03 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:

    "Due to the cyclicar climate changes of our planet, aren't we due for another ice age?"


    Yes, and several top scientists are starting to sound the alarm that we may indeed be facing another ice age in the not too distant future. So how come you know more about it than this scientists ?

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  • 116. At 04:16am on 03 Oct 2008, Tbesqer wrote:

    The USA has lost so much goodwill in the last seven years. The Bush Administration is to blame for that. The GOP candidate is fresh air, insofar as he (a POW) vehemently opposes all forms of torture, and knows the cruelty of war. Yet, he and his running mate are ever hawkish. The Democrats recognize the war was a mistake (I was opposed to the war before it began). The Democrats recognize it is time to leave Iraq. They recognize that it is very important to repair the USA's credibility in the world (though Senator Biden did not discuss that enough during the debate). I do respect Mr. McCaine. However, selecting Ms. Palin to be his running mate reveals flawed judgment. Ms. Palin is a fundamentalist christian conservative who seems to cast rational thinking aside. She is not qualified to assume the White House in a heartbeat. I hope the American People have the sense to elect Mr. Obama. Yours truly, from across the pond (recently transplanted from Pennsylvania to Tennessee).

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  • 117. At 04:18am on 03 Oct 2008, NDPNDNTTHNKR wrote:

    re: 99 kecsmar,

    I saw the same thing. It was pretty funny.

    100. Cunard,
    It's usually a negotiated point prior to the debates and probably requested by the Repubs to assist Palin in her canned answers.

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  • 118. At 04:19am on 03 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:


    "It has never been as clear to me by how much McCain/Palin have stolen from Obama - Change, energy independency, etc.."


    Ha, ha. I think you may have got the other way round. Palin and McCain have actually produced change...Palin has done more for energy independence than ANYTHING Obama has said. Obama talks and talks and talks (teleprompter
    allowing) while McCain and Palin have actually taken action.

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  • 119. At 04:21am on 03 Oct 2008, NDPNDNTTHNKR wrote:

    OldSouth,

    Very nice attempt at veiling some touchy opinions using the 'simple and quaint' hairdresser character.

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  • 120. At 04:26am on 03 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    108:

    I think she pronounced 'nuclear' like dubbya, but I was in the kitchen getting my tea and bikkies, so it might have been wishful thinking.

    It's an odd format to our ears. The questions aren't really questions, just "What would you like to say about . . ." And they're not really allowed to argue with each other, which is why I think 'debate' is not really the right word.

    Mind you, our own politicians are even more expert at avoiding giving direct answers to awkward questions. . .but I was surprised that Palin was allowed to get away so early with more or less saying "I won't answer the question if I don't want. I'll just say what I want about anything else if I feel like it."

    Just out of curiosity; Biden was quite open about getting a decent salary (and only having one house!) but what does the Governor of Alaska get paid?

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  • 121. At 04:28am on 03 Oct 2008, Sir-Jaymore-Sterling wrote:

    It'll be funny if McCain/Palin win. That would further show that the notion of democracy been the best option is a fallacy. A new kind of ideology would have to emerge, one that is able to provide freedoms put somehow provide the opportunity for some level of competency and regulation attached to VPs etcetera.

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  • 122. At 04:36am on 03 Oct 2008, lawchicago wrote:

    Manic quality ?... Maybe and maybe a bit more .. I think its zealotry. she sees America as the New Jerusalem as most fundamentalists do ( which excludes God's grace to the rest of the world) Palin, behind the those designer glasses , "Bobcat Barbie " looks and Alaska fringe folksiness is in my mind as scary as they come.

    Not only does she not know much she doesn't care .
    I've said it before cant get the image out of my mind
    Bush with lipstick

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  • 123. At 04:36am on 03 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    100

    I listened to it on radio; I noticed each stumbled badly once, only I thought they were waffling until they thought of a proper answer. I didn't realise they were waffling while they were actually looking for it . . .Just like our PM at PMQ's, but his ring binder and the stickies are all in plain sight . . .

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  • 124. At 04:40am on 03 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    108.

    "People are surprised that I don't watch the 'debates.' Prescripted. Boring. Completely predictable. Too long. The only high point would have been if she mispronounced another word. Did she?"

    Wow! I knew I could depend on her. She said "cyclicar" instead of "cyclical," according to regular_Josephine, #103. Palin also has trouble with nuclear and verbiage. She makes the last rhyme with garbage.

    Makes you weep. (Oops! Makes ya weep.)

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  • 125. At 04:49am on 03 Oct 2008, wsdmskr wrote:

    In regards to the question of raising or lower taxes, a popular campaign tactic for both parties...

    The United States citizens pay the lowest taxes per percentage of income out of every industrialized, modern country in the world and yet we also poll as the most unhappy about it while European countries paying a much larger portion of their salaries in taxes are actually happier about it.

    In many countries it is tantamount to political suicide to even suggest lower taxes. Why is this?

    Because people in Europe and other modernized countries actually see their taxes at work. They have government paid health insurance, government subsidized higher education, infrastructure that is being constantly improved and modernized (the under-taking of that construction here would lead to millions of jobs across the nation as UNION laborers went to work building roads, highways, rails and more) , maternity programs that actually allow both the mother AND father to take time off from work (while being paid and having job security for up to a year, not the unpaid 12 weeks that we Americans have),welfare programs, security in retirement, and unemployment.... I could go on and on about the benefit of WISELY spent high taxes.

    Government's job is to provide and protect. How is it supposed to efficiently do that with empty pockets?

    If I had to pay higher taxes, but my schooling was more heavily subsidized and my health care was free, not only would feel happier and more secure, I also wouldn't miss too much of the upfront cash that I would have had with lower taxes.

    Why? The money I save by having lower taxes seems to come right out of my pocket towards those programs anyway.

    As far as those that would claim government bureaucracy and inefficiency, can you imagine the negotiating and buying power 300 million united people would have against the over-sized, over-paid, and over-subsidized corporations that we are all so upset with due to the U.S.'s current economic situation?

    Cost of prescriptions would plummet because the pharmaceutical corporations would no longer be able to artificially inflate the cost of medicine, many more of our children would have the ability to compete on a global scale due to the easier access to education we could empower them with, even our business's could benefit from a modern infrastructure designed to move consumer goods more efficiently across our country.

    These examples are only the tip of the iceberg... I could go on and on.

    We American citizens need to suck it up. We, and I think the majority of the world would agree, are a society comprised mostly of people who want the world (figuratively and, arguably literally) but don't want a dime of it to come from THEIR pockets.

    P.S. for those of my fellow American citizens who would tell me to leave the country if I feel so negatively about it...

    Our country was built on bucking the establishment, which I feel proud to do. However, things keep progressing the way they have and I will leave, with a smile on my face and a conscious clear as could be.



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  • 126. At 04:52am on 03 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    Oh yes, before I go to sleep, could somebody tell me what on earth 'bloviating' is?

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  • 127. At 04:53am on 03 Oct 2008, wsdmskr wrote:

    Sweden's looking mighty fine, check out their social programs, poverty levels, health care, life expectancy, infant mortality rates, college education rates, women and civil rights stances, maternity programs... etc. All of the above are the accepted designators of a socially advanced nation.

    By the way, the U.S. ranks last or near last in almost every one of those categories in comparison to every other modern, industrialized nations.

    Can either of our candidates measurably change that?

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  • 128. At 04:54am on 03 Oct 2008, NDPNDNTTHNKR wrote:

    british,
    She absolutely pronounced it 'nucular' multiple times and lost HUGE points with me for that. It grates my nerves when Dub'ya does it.

    Palin makes a salary of $82000/yr.

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  • 129. At 04:56am on 03 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    103, josephine.

    "Due to the cyclicar climate changes of our planet, aren't we due for another ice age?" Josephine quoted Palin.

    Since we are in the fourth interglacial, and since the fourth interglacial is unique in itself, people can theorize like crazy, but no one knows when we will enter the next ice age.

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  • 130. At 05:00am on 03 Oct 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    This wasn't really a debate. The moderator may
    have as well not have been in the room.

    Palin got "nuclear" right about half of the time.

    As ABC went into after the debate, both candidates
    fudged on the voting records.

    Did Biden have a peeled onion in his pocket?

    Both candidates kept talking about tax cuts.
    Apparently, neither of these animatronic puppets
    realize that there aren't going to be any tax cuts.

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  • 131. At 05:04am on 03 Oct 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #117. NDPNDNTTHNKR : (notes) "It's usually a negotiated point prior to the debates and probably requested by the Repubs to assist Palin in her canned answers."

    I realise that, but why is it permitted? I presume because the GOP said something to the effect of 'no notes, no debate'. We rarely get to see Mrs P speaking extemporaneously and it would have been a service to electors to hear her without any assistance - after all, that's what debating is all about. Hillary would have made mincemeat out of her.

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  • 132. At 05:06am on 03 Oct 2008, elizabeth_was wrote:

    As much as I am diametrically opposed to Palin, she wins on moxie. Her sarcastic quips at Biden were probably the first sign of any sort of real humanity beyond all the candidates' sob stories this whole election.

    The small town thing gets old, though. I've lived in small towns most of my life, and really, they're not as ideal and chummy as all these politicians are trying to make voters believe. This comment applies to both Biden and Palin.

    Biden, for his part, proved that he is the King of the Facts: he can recite and comprehend them. He was fairly didactic, however, which does nothing for charisma and coherency when the people watching can't make heads or tails of facts flying by them at 100 miles per minute. He needed to slow down a few times and say what he wanted to in less time with more pizazz.

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  • 133. At 05:14am on 03 Oct 2008, lawchicago wrote:

    132 we Americans seem to like the imagery of small towns even though is an mythic thing for us . Moms apple pie on the windowsill, The waving wheat in Kansas and freckle-faced kids playing baseball in the backyard on a sunny Midwestern day .
    Kind of the same tripe as Shining light on hill New Jerusalem stuff

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  • 134. At 05:15am on 03 Oct 2008, christianleft wrote:

    Old South,
    You and your hairdresser (mindless banter) annoy me.

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  • 135. At 05:16am on 03 Oct 2008, tucsonmike wrote:

    Governor Palin has her finger on the pulse of Middle Class Middle America. On a deeper level though, I don't think she has a clue how to help us.

    Joe Biden is certainly the more knowledgeable, but he had to be careful not to come over as smug.

    Sarah Palin benefited Sarah Palin. I do not think she did anything for McCain. If he wins, it will be mainly because of her.

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  • 136. At 05:21am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    #125
    You are whole hardly correct. However, ask main street what they want they agree with you yet when a politician stands up and says it, the media jump on board and use scare tactics of fear...then the other candidate must make sure s/he doesn't fall into the same trap...before you know it...you're all fed a web of lies and 'forced' to believe it..when in reality, as you have noted, the "fear" of liberalism/socialism etc, whatever you wish to call it, is unfounded. The European countries function and function well...not perfect granted, but we don't have to worry about health care, maternity leave, pensions etc, they way all of US does. With that worry of 'life' taken away...life is far more bearable

    Yet every time an election comes around...commonsense (and looking what can be achived with public money) is pushed aside in favour of listening to fear....

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  • 137. At 05:27am on 03 Oct 2008, JohnDube wrote:

    GRAVITAS! Doesnt anybody remember this term anymore? McCain just lost the election!

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  • 138. At 05:29am on 03 Oct 2008, NDPNDNTTHNKR wrote:

    wsdmskr,
    Though many of your fellow citizens would quickly tell you to not let the door hit you in the a** on the way out, I won't follow that temptation.

    I would argue that you're missing the point of what this country was originally founded on. The majority of the Founding Fathers believed that a government big enough to help you is big enough to hurt you even worse. A large part of this country's power was always intended to remain with the individual states.

    You are asking this country to form into something it was never meant to be..... a country with a citizenry fully dependent on its government. And yes, you have to talk about bureaucracy and inefficiency in this government. You don't have to look any further than Social Security, welfare and the IRS to see that huge percentages of the tax dollars we do spend are completely wasted and mismanaged by the same politicians you would give more money and power to.

    I don't mind having a debate or discussion on raising taxes for the right programs. But it will not come before ridding the wasteful spending already rampant in this government.

    Regulation needs to be increased and oversight must also increase. The American citizen must take more responsibility in the actions of its representatives. But anyone that is willing to scrap what this country has accomplished over the last 100 years because of this political blunder is extremely shortsighted. The left wing of the country and many internationally are looking to this crisis to ballyhoo the end of America as a superpower. That attitude is foolishly premature.

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  • 139. At 05:38am on 03 Oct 2008, NDPNDNTTHNKR wrote:

    re: 131 David_C,
    I much prefer a 'town hall' style of debate, similar to what you mentioned. It's hard to say who made what concessions in this format, but it does leave much to be desired. Ironically, Palin has done well in open format debates in the past. I have no idea why she wouldn't want to get back to something she seems to be more comfortable with.

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  • 140. At 05:38am on 03 Oct 2008, LadyBobbieBea wrote:

    Palin's knowledge and understanding of the issues remains very shallow even after learning as much as she has to prepare for the debates. I can just see her as Commander in Chief. "Oh, go ahead, you make all the military decisions. You know best!" They'd roll right over her. She would be one of the more obvious political puppets.

    b

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  • 141. At 05:43am on 03 Oct 2008, NDPNDNTTHNKR wrote:

    re: 137 Dube,
    Nail in the coffin, I think. My prediction is Obama wins by 15mil votes.


    re: 136 kecsmar,
    How can you say that the concerns of socialism are unfounded? What do you think the addition of social program such as Social Security, govt mandated healthcare, ACORN, Freddie Mac, etc are?

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  • 142. At 05:43am on 03 Oct 2008, HappyMedium wrote:

    Sarah earned credits for the appearance of holding her own. To an educated citizenry, she used dirty tactics and skewed information. Most of the public does not know what has become of Congress, bills and propositions. These are worded with great confusion, and some bills have "riders" on them making it impossible to give an honest vote. As Joe Biden pointed out sometimes bills are presented with multiple parts. You could vote yes and want no for another part. Obviously Sarah lifted partial truths to justify her points. This kind of tactic shows self interests over the real faith needed for a democracy built on honest truths.

    She is no one to be admonishing Joe Biden for referring to the past Bush policies as Mc Cains too. He was fine and right to point out that Mc Cain and Bush hold similar views. She won no points for the better until she can present a presidential platform that specifies intent and changes proposed,

    She is not winning any points for just talking about change or being "new" out substance. There is nothing glorified about being a "maverick", unless there are some plans and solutions to demonstrate what's to be implemented that shows how you are different, and not just wreckless with defended abandon.

    When Mc Cain said he went to D.C. to do his "duty" for the "Bail Out", he was quoted as saying, "I went there to do what little I could do...." Is this the same sentiment he will have if he is President? Let's hear what your platforms are. "...what little I can do..." ?

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  • 143. At 05:43am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    #125
    I could go on too..

    When at my last company i had an accident on holiday and unable to go to work. I discovered that i was entitled to 6months full-salary and then a further 6 months half salary, as part of my company benefits. In addition, when i retire i would get approx 60% of my last 3 years salary (as an average of the 3)...when i am sick and need medicine i pay just $10 whatever the medicine and volume.

    When my wife has a child, i am entitled to maternity leave...my wife gets some 6 months maternity leave...all on full salary.

    Our taxes help to fund this...for some reason all you Americans would love this level of support, but hate to pay for it directly out of your pockets.

    You need to change your system of Govt and how it runs and how it spends money and accountability...which you currently do not have. The current economic mess is evidence of this...everyone squabbling to make sure they are not left with a "legacy vote". So, again...fear!

    If the system works for the good of the nation, with proper checks and balances, legacy votes are irrelevant.

    Having a 50-50 split in the senate solves nothing, just panders to ones own interests and status quo, ie no progress

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  • 144. At 05:56am on 03 Oct 2008, NDPNDNTTHNKR wrote:

    kecsmar,
    Again, those are all programs that follow Marxist ideology and provide for a direct redistribution of wealth.

    I won't make the point for unrestrained capitalism. I believe that there should be checks and balances in place to prevent average citizens from being taken advantage of (unions, securities regulation, etc). But the overall goal of our system is to allow citizens to keep more of the money they earn and CHOOSE how they will spend that money themselves.

    Here, here! I would be the first to support a viable 3rd party system. I also believe that the President should be limited to a single 6 year term. Under the current system any President spend the last 22 months of his first term campaigning for re-election.

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  • 145. At 05:58am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    #138
    "...The majority of the Founding Fathers believed that a government big enough to help you is big enough to hurt you even worse..."

    The problem with this is that with no Govt support one needs private companies to provide said support. These companies are acting just as you suggest....they are big enough and do hurt you. Repeatedly and nothing seems to be done about it except to say..we don't want the Govt spending our money nor being dependant on them.

    So, what is the difference between the two?

    Private companies can do what they like with impunity...whereas Govt.s, with proper checks and balances and legislation are far more restricted. They also, in a democracy, answer to the electorate and not share holders. Who owns the majority shares that controls the voting in said companies....Joe Public??...think again!

    I'm all for private companies etc, in my work, i am 100% accountable for everything I do and so it should be, the buck stops with me....but accountability comes at a cost. My health and family are far more important than having a private company dictating to me what i can or cannot claim, because the share holders have accepted the accountants view.

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  • 146. At 06:01am on 03 Oct 2008, d_james wrote:

    Meanwhile, north of the US-Canada border, a political debate was also taking place, but this time it actually involved the party leaders - running to be prime minister of Canada. Unlike a VP debate, it might actually matter in determining who becomes the leader of a G7 country.

    Funny how the BBC's "North America Editor" has made no mention of the general election in the other half of the continent. Surely to goodness something worth mentioning has occurred so far that might rival noting that Congress went AWOL for a Jewish holiday. The Green Party might get its first elected member in North America and their leader is in the debates for the first time. Where the American banking system is falling apart the Canadian system is chugging along happily. There's a great debate about a carbon tax and about further tar sands development - you know, energy security and all that. Even as a point of contrast and comparison in how things operate in two similar yet different countries one would think a mention would be merited every now and then.

    Let's see a little more of this "North American" content... if Australia merits a full BBC blogger (Nick Bryant) then it's about time that the BBC's "North American" editor pay attention to the only Commonwealth country on the continent.

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  • 147. At 06:08am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    #146
    quite right...

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  • 148. At 06:19am on 03 Oct 2008, NDPNDNTTHNKR wrote:

    kecsmar,
    Limited government support is not the same as NO support.

    And you are incorrect. Joe Public does in fact own the controlling shares. Retirement accounts for the average 'Joe' account for a huge portion of the ownership of publicly traded companies. The problem is that, unlike government, the means for those owners to exert their influence is limited or nonexistent. That is where the controls need to be added to this system.

    Could you give me some examples of the influence you write about that these corporations have and when they've exerted it without impunity? With respect, I feel this is a broad generality that doesn't represent the actual.

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  • 149. At 06:21am on 03 Oct 2008, mic-va wrote:

    Palin really had an advantage over Biden in that we have no idea what she has said about McCain prior to becming his running mate. She is able to point out his disagreements with Obama's position, while keeping her views to herself. Palin seemed to have less substance than Biden. She tries too hard to be folksy and cute. Palin is clearly able to sound as good as she does because there's nothing much to her.

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  • 150. At 06:29am on 03 Oct 2008, NDPNDNTTHNKR wrote:

    146. d_j,
    Any interest in seceding to the US? Except for that small section in Quebec. Sell it to France BEFORE the transfer as the dollar is currently in the loo.

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  • 151. At 06:30am on 03 Oct 2008, NDPNDNTTHNKR wrote:

    Now THAT would be news worth writing about! :)

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  • 152. At 06:55am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    #148

    "...those are all programs that follow Marxist ideology and provide for a direct redistribution of wealth..."

    There we go...fear!...it is not redistribution of wealth in the Marxist ideology. How is this relevant to not having to pay for health care? Since you need to pay for health/medical somwhere, who do you wish to pay? In your assertion the money is being redistributed to private companies....so 'redistributing' to a Govt dept solely for health care is different...how???

    So, you saying that Joe Public endorses the validity of the health insurance plans that a health company sets up....as one assumes, this must be passed by its share holders since it influences them directly? If so, why is everyone bitching about health costs and the claim system, if they, as share holders with the majority vote, have voted for it?

    The LCS program for combat ships...a so called private company gave a firm fixed price, yet the delivery date has been pushed to the right by several years the cost has increased from some $150m to more than $500m, and they keep asking for more money...and the Govt, or tax payer, ends up footing the bill. The company wants the Govt to foot the bill for the inefficiency, waste and poor management...So much for value for money...

    For once common sense prevailed and a stop has been put to vessels #2~3, if i recall correctly. Yet previously private companies dictate to Govt what the cost is...they change the terms of the contract...and still want to eat their cake! Govt just rolls overs...which it does.

    For more detailed...i suggest you look at Wall St....

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  • 153. At 06:55am on 03 Oct 2008, wsdmskr wrote:

    NDPNDNTTHNKR...

    I hate to break it you you, but if you think that "big government" isn't already involved enough to hurt us you are soundly mistaken.

    They may operate behind closed doors, but they are still involved in every decision you and I make. All I am proposing is to take those decisions out of the "cigar smoke filled rooms" and make them public domain.

    Trust me, I in no way propose that the government as is would be capable or trustworthy enough with the revenue increased taxes would create. All I was referring to is American's absolute abhorrence of taxes and and the idea of "big government".

    Our system is broken.

    Instead of "big government" we have "big corporations" that act against our best interests at every turn. The only way to reign in these monstrosities is through government.

    The free market does not and never has existed. Why do we insist on pretending it does?

    Even in our infancy, slavery was a government sponsored instrument of our economy allowing us to rise to power quicker as our labor cost were artificially kept lower, allowing our country to reap profits while the rest of the world (who by that time had abolished slavery) had already transferred to the pay for labor economic system we find ourselves in today.

    The media and even our school system insist on forcing the age old propaganda of "free market" and "state government" upon us through out our lives.

    However if you look at the big picture the federal government over rules the state anytime it wants anyway.

    Look at gay rights, abortion, drug legality....

    Are you telling me and the world that the American politician is more given to corruption than politicians in the rest of the world?

    How is it that all of these other countries, which we accept as admirable systems of democracies, are able to sustain these government led programs without the wide spread corruption (at least not any worse than the mess we're saddled with) you mention?

    Our forefathers never had to accept the realities of the cross continental railroads, automobiles, planes, the Internet.. etc

    All of these mostly recent inventions not only make the borders between states irrelevant, but eventually will globalize the entire world.

    So holding on to a long beloved but mistaken belief that central government is an evil, although maybe appropriate in the 1700's coming out of the tyranny of King George's monarchy, may have been appropriate then, it does not and could not take into account the shrinking borders yet expanding population of our precious country.

    Besides our forefathers were less than 20 votes away from forming a new monarchy here instead of a democracy. Look it up

    Trying to live entrenched in rules laid down centuries ago before totally unforeseen advances in communications and mobilization just doesn't make sense.

    Having the world's largest economy, yet trailing behind the rest of the modern, industrial world in almost every measure of human welfare not only doesn't make sense, it's embarrassing.

    As far as our super power status, the only area in which the U.S. is actually still the superpower we claim to be is in military might. We lag in health care, education, civil rights, levels of poverty, distribution of wealth, ... on and on and on.

    Here's a thought, if you are so against raising taxes and the centralization of government...
    let's cut our military budget in half. We could cover the bailout, health care reform, education reform, and we would still out spend the rest of the world combined by 25% instead of the 50% we lead it by now.

    I really didn't mean to go on this huge diatribe. I meant to merely suggest that raising taxes may not be the evil we have all been brainwashed into believing. But boy, when I get started.....

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  • 154. At 07:01am on 03 Oct 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    "Bloviating?" Looks like Justin Webb gets his news from the O'Reilly Factor. I always knew he's a closet Fox News fan.

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  • 155. At 07:02am on 03 Oct 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #141. NDPNDNTTHNKR: "What do you think the addition of social program such as Social Security, govt mandated healthcare, ACORN, Freddie Mac, etc are?"

    ACORN is neither government funded nor is it a tax exempt charity. You omit to mention government mandated education - is that 'socialist' too? No party, let alone a presidential candidate, would run on a 'disband Social Security' plank. It's entrenched in the American psyche, just as the NHS is for the British. What is so wrong with guaranteeing healthcare for all Americans? Why should the man-in-the-street be denied the healthcare benefits that congressional members have? That's paid for by their employer, the American taxpayer. A caring government should do so for all, and it isn't "Marxist" in itself.

    The redistribution of wealth is one of those issues which will become increasingly discussed; the disparity between CEO and workers' salaries and then the former walking away from employment with tens of millions of dollars. Washington Mutual CEO Alan Fishman is a fine example - netting just under $20 million for three weeks of work before Washington Mutual was seized. It's no wonder that "the workers" are upset with this enormous gap in income. The United States is too large for any revolution, but voters - and investors - will back measures which limit these enormous salaries and 'golden parachutes/handshakes".

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  • 156. At 07:06am on 03 Oct 2008, NDPNDNTTHNKR wrote:

    Geez guys, slow down a minute.... One at a time.....

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  • 157. At 07:11am on 03 Oct 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    133. lawchicago: "Kind of the same tripe as . . . New Jerusalem stuff."

    And all Brits know that, anyway, the new Jerusalem will be founded "in England's green and pleasant land." It's the British national song so it must be true :)

    #153. wsdmskr: "I really didn't mean to go on this huge diatribe."

    Ever heard of editing? It made interesting reading though.

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  • 158. At 07:13am on 03 Oct 2008, wsdmskr wrote:

    NDPNDNTTHNKR..."Could you give me some examples of the influence you write about that these corporations have and when they've exerted it without impunity? With respect, I feel this is a broad generality that doesn't represent the actual."

    In 1980 General Motors forced the city of Detroit to to turn over to it 2/3 of a square mile of land. This land sale forcibly removed and relocated (at the tax payers expense) 3,000 citizens from their homes, tore down some 160 small businesses, knocked down a 170 bed hospital, redirected 2 expressway ramps, moved a railroad right of way, and relocated a 2 acre plot of a Jewish graveyard.

    It then forced the city to grade the land to a depth of 10 feet below so as to not have to incur flooding, sewer, phone and gas lines all at the tax payers expense.

    Finally, Detroit was forced to give GM a 12 year 50% tax abatement on top of all of the above.

    All of that happened so that GM could build a new Cadillac factory that ended up providing fewer jobs than the businesses it displaced and many less than the amount GM had promised to provide.

    GM had threatened to move without those appeasements.
    If that's not a case for "big Business" being a problem.....

    By the way, that factory is now closed and the city of Detroit is one of , if not the, poorest cities in America.

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  • 159. At 07:20am on 03 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    115, viva.

    "Yes, and several top scientists are starting to sound the alarm that we may indeed be facing another ice age in the not too distant future. So how come you know more about it than this scientists ?"

    Another ice age has to come eventually. Maybe it will start in 5,000 years, or maybe 20,000 years. And even when it does come, it does not hit you in the space of a weekend.

    We are in the fourth interglacial. No one knows how long the fourth interglacial is since we have never had one before. Cycles within cycles also produce warming and cooling. Anyone can make screwball predictions when dealing with so many unknowns.

    I have no idea who these "top scientists" are, but I will bet there are plenty other top scientists shaking their heads. Maybe your top scientists are also predicting Armageddon.

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  • 160. At 07:28am on 03 Oct 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Biden said Obama wrote the Secretary of the Treasury two years ago about his concerns regarding the sub-prime mortgages. I guess he was satisfied with the answer he got, he didn't mention it again until two weeks ago when it became an extreme crisis.

    One American financial commentator on BBC said this all started in 1994 when the UN passed a resolution saying that housing was a human right and President Clinton signed an executive order making it easier for poor people who couldn't afford to pay for a house to buy one anyway. That's when the snowball started rolling down the hill. One more good reason for the US to quit the UN and throw the overpaid blowhards out. The only hope we have that this would ever happen would be if McCain gets elected, dies, and Palin takes over. I bet that would be among her first orders...once someone tells her what the UN is :-)

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  • 161. At 07:37am on 03 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    160, s. aureus.

    "...and President Clinton signed an executive order making it easier for poor people who couldn't afford to pay for a house to buy one anyway. That's when the snowball started rolling down the hill."

    I have been saying this for months and no one has ever replied. The fault for the sub-prime debacle is not one-sided.

    As for Obama and his stance on sub-prime mortgages, there was a bill a couple of years ago that had to do with the government intervening with Fannie and Freddie. Obama voted for it; McCain voted against it.

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  • 162. At 07:39am on 03 Oct 2008, NDPNDNTTHNKR wrote:

    re: 155 David,
    The Federal Goverment does NOT mandate education and instead leaves that to the individual states.

    ACORN receives approximately 40% of it's funds from taxpayer sources and until recently, had even more money commited to it from this bailout plan. Add in it's relationship with Freddie Mac and they absolutely share some culpability in this financial crisis.

    Again, all of those issues you mention in your last paragraph could and should be prevented with increased regulation and oversight. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is not the answer here.

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  • 163. At 07:53am on 03 Oct 2008, NDPNDNTTHNKR wrote:

    re: 158 wsdmskr,
    That action was an eminent domain issue and the General Motors did not FORCE the city of Detroit to do anything. If you're American, then you should already know how controversial eminent domain has been in the last 5 years. The city of Detroit chose to follow that path for increased jobs. Job displacement and job loss isn't the same thing.

    The state of Mississippi recently enticed Nissan and Toyota to build new plants in their state with incentives amounting to over $660,000,000. Those funds were garnered from Mississippi taxpayers. Why in the world would they do that? Those facilities created approx 1000 direct jobs and probably 5 times that in indirect support jobs.

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  • 164. At 07:54am on 03 Oct 2008, watermanaquarius wrote:

    Something for Ms Marbles, Justin, his moderators and all, especially Americans who are addicted to hunting and driving.
    Completely off topic although this is about upstate New York possibilities.
    Tried to send this yesterday morning but do not believe it made it through.[At least I cannot see it on the pre-debate blog.]
    Today, I remembered Professor Eds' instructions about " ampersands" and have revised the format. Thank you Ed.
    Hoping it has not already been submitted by others here.
    Enjoy.

    The skill of the speaker to capture his or her audience

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  • 165. At 07:59am on 03 Oct 2008, mandyleigh_com wrote:

    First off, brilliantly insightful and funny comments Justin.... way more entertaining than the debate. When you tire of political reporting, maybe you could take over from Terry Wogan in the Eurovision. I suppose that's pretty political anyway.

    Everyone expected Palin to crash and burn, and she didn't.

    She must have crammed very hard over the last week, but although she could respond with quotes and slogans and memorised snippets, she obviously has no grasp (or has had any interest) in the world at large or any of the important issues facing america and the world. Scary.

    Biden played it safe and tried to respond on-topic and without addressing her too much. Good job.

    I think the rest of the world wishes they could vote in this election, to make sure McCain (who I don't mind) and Palin (eeek!) don't take over from where Bush left off.

    If McCain won, and then died, Palin would be an even worse puppet President than Bush. Dick Cheney would probably wangle his way into VP again.

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  • 166. At 08:16am on 03 Oct 2008, NDPNDNTTHNKR wrote:

    Enjoyed the discussion but the time difference is tough. Would enjoy having this over a beer instead of through the pre-moderated format here.

    I appreciate your opinions.

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  • 167. At 08:44am on 03 Oct 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    162. NDPNDNTTHNKR: "The Federal Goverment does NOT mandate education and instead leaves that to the individual states."

    Perhaps 'mandated' was a poor choice of verb - but in any case, the Federal government provides large sums of money, taxpayers' money, through the Department of Education.

    I don't see that ACORN has any responsibility for the woes of the housing industry, and with regard to their funding, I refer you to this. From where did you get the figure 40%? - which "taxpayer sources"?

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  • 168. At 08:52am on 03 Oct 2008, peterm99 wrote:

    re: #143 and other posts

    kecsmar wrote: "When my wife has a child, i am entitled to maternity leave...my wife gets some 6 months maternity leave...all on full salary."

    What is the basis for your opinion that your employer (and ultimately the rest of society) owes you a de facto subsidy for your decision to procreate?

    Similarly for other benefits provided by taxpayers - What is the justification or philosophical basis for forcing other taxpayers to forego income they have earned to provide you with comforts and niceties?

    I can understand the rationale for taxpayer funded education, for common defense, for roads/infrastructure, and many others - these are necessary for any modern society. Further, I can understand taxpayer support for the necessities of life for those unable (but not for those unwilling) to take care of themselves through no fault of their own.

    While it is fair to say that the US government does not do a comprehensive job in meeting some of the needs of the less well-to-do, many believe that the European "social democracies" go way too far in providing taxpayer funded services (often "nice to have" rather than necessary) to the population at large, and not just to those who are unable to provide them for themselves.

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  • 169. At 09:39am on 03 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    #168
    "...What is the basis for your opinion that your employer (and ultimately the rest of society) owes you a de facto subsidy for your decision to procreate?..."
    I have no opinion...it is a benefit offered by my employer. Given the choice of working for a company with said and one without said, it is a no brainer.

    Again, given the choice between a system were all my medical needs are met and free at source all day every day no matter the state of the economy...where some may abuse, and a system where no one benefits, save the health care companies and their CEOs and with premiums that are telephone number figures and after each "claim" less and less is "included" to the extent that one is not even covered for ailments not even affected....i know which i opt for.

    "...What is the justification or philosophical basis for forcing other taxpayers to forgo income they have earned to provide you with comforts and niceties?.."

    So, when I am ill I need to see a doctor, or when i require treatment from my doctor or when i need serious medical intervention like an operation, you consider this to be a "comfort" or niceity?....so, health of the nation is not necessary for the a modern society, hmmm, interesting.....

    "...but not for those unwilling..", so, the low paid worker who cannot afford a car, it is ok for him to pay taxes to build roads, or the pacifist to pay for the army, or the "many others"..as you call them...are these not tax payers???

    And you wonder why you have a selfish "those that have and those that have not" split of a nation!

    "..European "social democracies".." what on earth does this tripe mean?...does this mean the US is the last bastion of "freedom and democracy" and protecting your hard earned dollars just so we strongly encourage you to give to large corporations and let them waste your money???...yawnnnn

    You must be very happy with the current state of your nation, the health, the education, the employment and economy....ahh..that's what you call a modern society, is it?


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  • 170. At 09:40am on 03 Oct 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    "144. At 05:56am on 03 Oct 2008, NDPNDNTTHNKR wrote:
    kecsmar,
    Again, those are all programs that follow Marxist ideology and provide for a direct redistribution of wealth."

    it is also catholic ideology and to an extent Mormon and Islamic, but let us not question an American about Marx or socialism.

    "I won't make the point for unrestrained capitalism. I believe that there should be checks and balances in place to prevent average citizens from being taken advantage of (unions, securities regulation, etc). But the overall goal of our system is to allow citizens to keep more of the money they earn and CHOOSE how they will spend that money themselves."

    Fine haven't noticed Warren Buffet, the Bush family or any of the American aristocracy etc having to give away all their money? When did that occur

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  • 171. At 10:09am on 03 Oct 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    Brilliant (sorry to whoever dislikes use of that word, above) debate, absolutely brilliant.

    Best one I've seen by far during this whole presidential fandango.

    I mean the debate between wsdmskr and NDPNDNTTHNKR above, starting about #125 with the wonderful post from wsdmskr and then the equally wonderful #138 and so on.

    I love I love I love it.

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  • 172. At 10:19am on 03 Oct 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    For what its worth, in #171 I should also have mentioned David_Cunard and kecsmar for their fourpenceworth.

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  • 173. At 10:27am on 03 Oct 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    Also for what it's worth, I believe the problem with the 'bigger state' is not the political, it's the practical.

    I believe the government makes a terrible manager.

    I do not believe it a coincidence that the public sector in the UK is over 60% unionised while the private sector is less than 20% unionised.

    It's because the government is easy meat.

    Having said that, wsdmskr made the extremely valid point that big corporations are also hopelessly inefficient and show some signs of political corruption.

    The UK's answer to the government management problem has been outsourcing and Private Finance Initiatives (PFIs). Despite heavy criticism, they are at least cash cappable at some point in the future.

    The point is that it is easier to find the political will to cash cap an external contract than it is to force good management on to government employed managers and workers.

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  • 174. At 11:22am on 03 Oct 2008, SaintDominick wrote:

    The debate was a glaring example of the mediocrity of our leadership. However, Gov. Palin's performance, even with her inability to provide specifics on a few issues, was good enough to reassure the party faithful and do further damage to the McCain ticket.

    Thanks Heavens for Obama who, although he is no FDR, Jefferson, Lincoln or Clinton is good enough to provide a clear vision of what is best for our country and reassure a concerned electorate with the clarity of his message, his focus on the middle class, and command of domestic and international issues.

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  • 175. At 11:52am on 03 Oct 2008, lordBeddGelert wrote:

    "bloviating" ?? What on earth is this ??

    And 'Duh?' Please. Either say 'Doh!'. Or don't use a remark which is condescending to those with mental illness. Please.

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  • 176. At 12:08pm on 03 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    "capitalism against communism...If one must spend one's life as an employee, what difference does it make whether one's employer is a government or a corporation?"
    Berry
    Roll on Nov 5th!

    ;-)
    ed


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  • 177. At 12:08pm on 03 Oct 2008, Aussieeye wrote:

    OlsSouth I wanted to thank you for your hilarious reportage from the hairdressers - it was fascinating to hear the thoughts of a voter who would never blog about it.

    Palin was adroit, but the cute thing is so three weeks ago, pre-the bailout

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  • 178. At 12:12pm on 03 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    blo·vi·ate /'blo?vi?e?t/,,,,
    to speak pompously.
    [Origin: 1850–55, Americanism; pseudo-L alter. of blow to boast; popularized by W. G. Harding]

    —Related forms
    blo·vi·a·tion, noun
    ,..
    intr.v. blo·vi·at·ed, blo·vi·at·ing, blo·vi·ates Slang
    To discourse at length in a pompous or boastful manner: "the rural Babbitt who bloviates about 'progress' and 'growth'" (George Rebeck).
    ...
    [Mock-Latinate formation, from blow1.]

    blo'vi·a'tion n.
    ...
    verb
    orate verbosely and windily

    ;-)
    ed

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  • 179. At 12:20pm on 03 Oct 2008, canukqc wrote:

    I'm disappointed, this blog and others promised me a complete implosion of the Republican ticket. Well done everyone, you just made her mediocre performance seem a lot better than it actually was.

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  • 180. At 12:20pm on 03 Oct 2008, lordBeddGelert wrote:

    Ed - thanks for that ! I should maybe have known this, as it is rather surprising that no one has [yet] accused me of this myself !

    Or maybe they did and I was too embarrassed to admit I didn't know what it meant !

    I was half-expecting it to be a neologism vaguely related to the word 'blogvertising'...

    This message was brought to you courtesy of Justin Webb's jolly good tome 'Have a Nice Day !'

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  • 181. At 12:22pm on 03 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    "Instead of "big government" we have "big corporations" that act against our best interests at every turn. The only way to reign in these monstrosities is through government."
    A corporation is a pile of money with a single operating purpose - to become a bigger pile of money.
    "We must crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to bid defiance to the laws of our country."
    -- Thomas Jefferson, 1812

    "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation then by deflation, the banks and the corporations will grow up around them, will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."
    -- Thomas Jefferson
    Pretty topical in the current circumstances, I reckon.

    Meanwhile....

    Hmmmmmm
    ed



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  • 182. At 12:30pm on 03 Oct 2008, SaintDominick wrote:

    Frankly, I was not too overly impressed with the performance of either candidate, although it is evident that Biden is much more qualified for the job than Palin, and that she is more charismatic than he is.

    The defining moments. from a sincerety perspective, were Paln's remark "Look, I've only been doing this for 5 weeks", and Biden choking up when he talked about almost losing a child.

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  • 183. At 12:36pm on 03 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    David & all,

    "The redistribution of wealth is one of those issues which will become increasingly discussed; the disparity between CEO and workers' salaries and then the former walking away from employment with tens of millions of dollars."
    The greatest redistribution of wealth in history has occurred in the past two decades, where the disparity referred to above has doubled or trebled. Just to reverse that trend would be a start.

    At the moment, four fifths of the consumption of world resources is for the benefit of one fifth of the world's folk. That's us, folks, you and me!

    And every morning, the sun rises on a world with 219,000 more mouths needing feeding...

    "Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a
    finite world is either a madman or an economist.
    "
    --Kenneth Boulding


    Change we need
    ;-(
    ed







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  • 184. At 1:08pm on 03 Oct 2008, peterm99 wrote:

    re: #181 Ed Iglehart wrote:
    "Instead of "big government" we have "big corporations" that act against our best interests at every turn. The only way to reign in these monstrosities is through government."

    The fundamental problem in the big gov't vs. big business discussion is the difference between "in theory" and "in the real world".

    In theory, if the transgressions of big business get too bad, then government can provide a moderating influence. In the real world, the government tends to be in bed with big business and does little or nothing to ameliorate these transgressions.

    In theory, since representative government (big or small) represents the will of the people, its transgressions against the people tend to be limited and minor. In the real world, even representative governments act imperious, and with extremely few exceptions, acts merely to preserve the power and benefits of its members and supporters.

    The counterpoint to your statement ("A corporation is a pile of money with a single operating purpose - to become a bigger pile of money.") is that a government is a collection of individuals with a dual operating purpose - to maintain their positions and increase their power and influence. It is extremely naive to believe that the best interests of the people are anywhere near the top of the priority list of most governments.

    Sadly, it seems that the only possible "solution" is that periodically we must grab the pitchforks and man the barricades (and that is becoming less of a realistic option as governments consolidate their power more and more).

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  • 185. At 1:12pm on 03 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    A comment seen elsewhere

    "Palin definitely won the imaginary debate in her head.
    She answered all her own questions perfectly."
    ;-0
    ed

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  • 186. At 1:26pm on 03 Oct 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    "173. At 10:27am on 03 Oct 2008, chill0 wrote:
    Also for what it's worth, I believe the problem with the 'bigger state' is not the political, it's the practical.

    I believe the government makes a terrible manager.

    I do not believe it a coincidence that the public sector in the UK is over 60% unionised while the private sector is less than 20% unionised."

    And from what do you conclude from that?

    Unions are a mark of a free society, p[eople allowed to organise to secure better conditions.

    "It's because the government is easy meat.

    Having said that, wsdmskr made the extremely valid point that big corporations are also hopelessly inefficient and show some signs of political corruption."

    Yes so maybe who actually sits in senior management, minister of MD is not actually the issue.

    "The UK's answer to the government management problem has been outsourcing and Private Finance Initiatives (PFIs). Despite heavy criticism, they are at least cash cappable at some point in the future."

    Didn't know the UK had a government management problem.

    The UK government can be as an effective manager as any other organisation.

    "The point is that it is easier to find the political will to cash cap an external contract than it is to force good management on to government employed managers and workers."

    But those companies whihc try to blacklist workers, outlaw unions etc aren't exactly known for thier efficiency are they?

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  • 187. At 1:28pm on 03 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    No surprise in the debate.

    Did anyone notice some of Biden's mocking facial expressions while Palin was speaking?

    Kudos to Iffel who did her job correctly.

    Overall Palin won because she did her job attack baracuda.

    While Biden's defense of Obama and his Bush Mcclain link was weak.

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  • 188. At 1:28pm on 03 Oct 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    "98. At 03:49am on 03 Oct 2008, OldSouth wrote:

    "Gwen had to behave herself tonight--had she not been exposed, the behaviour would have been much different, I'm certain."

    Are you? Care to explain? How was she "exposed"

    What was she trying to hide?

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  • 189. At 1:31pm on 03 Oct 2008, EastMeetWest wrote:

    106, Sir-jaymore-sterling, as a born Chinese, this is exactly how I think! If this is the so-called democracy you guys are bragging about... the Chinese will do just fine without it!

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  • 190. At 1:35pm on 03 Oct 2008, Simon21 wrote:

    "174. At 11:22am on 03 Oct 2008, DominickVila wrote:
    The debate was a glaring example of the mediocrity of our leadership. However, Gov. Palin's performance, even with her inability to provide specifics on a few issues, was good enough to reassure the party faithful and do further damage to the McCain ticket.

    Thanks Heavens for Obama who, although he is no FDR, Jefferson, Lincoln or Clinton is good enough to provide a clear vision of what is best for our country and reassure a concerned electorate with the clarity of his message, his focus on the middle class, and command of domestic and international issues.
    "

    Well for better of worse, he is pretty much home and hosed now. McCain has run out of steam, which is not surprising as he was given a near impossible task.

    Some of us predicted that Obama would time his moves well and this he has done.

    Whether he actually turns out to be any good is another matter, but e willnot blunder due to laziness and ignorance like the present incumbent.

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  • 191. At 1:38pm on 03 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Peterm99 (184),

    "a government is a collection of individuals with a dual operating purpose - to maintain their positions and increase their power and influence. It is extremely naive to believe that the best interests of the people are anywhere near the top of the priority list of most governments.

    Sadly, it seems that the only possible "solution" is that periodically we must grab the pitchforks and man the barricades (and that is becoming less of a realistic option as governments consolidate their power more and more)."
    First, the leading statement was David Cunard's, to which I was replying.

    Secondly, I am in complete agreement with the thrust of your post.
    "I heartily accept the motto, "That government is best which governs least"; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe--
    "That government is best which governs not at all"
    and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have.

    Government is at best but an expedient; but most governments are usually, and all governments are sometimes, inexpedient. The objections which have been brought against a standing army, and they are many and weighty, and deserve to prevail, may also at last be brought against a standing government."Henry Thoreau
    We are, as usual, pretty nearly at one.

    Salaam, etc.
    ed

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  • 192. At 1:50pm on 03 Oct 2008, mcdublin wrote:

    Justin

    I have generally been folllowing your blogs and had felt that you were doing well at a difficult tightrope of failrly representing both sides and not portraying any bias you have one way or the other (both first betwen Clinton / Obama and now McCain / Obama) - indeed the complaints on comments of bias from both sides at various times adequately demonstrate a reasonable balance being struck - but I feel compelled to raise one of the comments from your blog above and question the impartiality and proper journalism being reflected in your comment:

    "Biden has done us at least one service tonight anyway - he is off on a "McCain is no maverick" attack. Much better at it than Obama."

    Specifically to refer to an attack on one candidate doing 'us' a service and lauding at how better at attacking Biden was, surely indicates an unfair and improper leaning towards your preferred candidate - if you are to associate yourself as a democrat by saying 'us'.

    Incidentally, I would be a Democrat supporter (I would have voted Hillary, if my view / vote mattered!) - but have been shocked at the sheer levels of bias being propounded in news outlets that purport to be fair and balanced - to be fair, the BBC is not, and should never be, the counterpoint to Republican bias in the media - but fair and neutral.

    You might kindly explain??

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  • 193. At 1:58pm on 03 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    wsdmskr, My apologies for mis-attribution of your remark to David in my #191.
    ;-(
    ed

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  • 194. At 2:01pm on 03 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Simon,

    "The UK government can be as an effective manager as any other organisation."
    And just as ineffective (or even moreso), too!
    ;-)
    ed

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  • 195. At 2:07pm on 03 Oct 2008, karrapavan wrote:

    The only significant thing that they differ seems to be Iraq war. R seems to continue till victory whereas D seems to end it in 16 months.

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  • 196. At 2:22pm on 03 Oct 2008, meminmk wrote:

    Damned work got in the way a bit this morning!

    Have now read and reread some of the posts and must add my name to the list of the impressed.

    Posts 153 and 169 from wsdmskr were top quality, both in content and style. The responses were fine too.

    And Ed again, 181, with the Jefferson quotes. One has to ask "when did it all start going wrong for America"

    Regards to all

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  • 197. At 2:31pm on 03 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    McDublin,

    "Specifically to refer to an attack on one candidate doing 'us' a service and lauding at how better at attacking Biden was, surely indicates an unfair and improper leaning towards your preferred candidate - if you are to associate yourself as a democrat by saying 'us'."
    The clue is in your last sentence. I found the "us" to refer to "the public", but I would, wouldn't I? I think anyone who challenges any of the cliches is doing all of us a favour.

    Change!

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  • 198. At 3:30pm on 03 Oct 2008, cyrilcroydon wrote:

    She may have secured her place as the nominee, but she certainly didn't "win" the debate. She did a "Mrs Smith goes to Washington" routine, which flyover country likes, but there was no meat and no plan. It was just attractive folksy soundbites.

    She didn't answer many of the questions properly, just kept repeating her pre-rehearsed talking points.

    She didn't look Presidential material, and most non-partisan voters could see that. The campaign will probably lock her away now until polling day. No more interviews, and still not a single press conference. How can someone run for the Vice-Presidency, and not hold a single press conference?

    That's the real scandal which the media should be exposing.


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  • 199. At 3:32pm on 03 Oct 2008, kburns_ireland wrote:

    The moderation and questions where... bizarre, to say the least.

    I reckon Biden won this; Palin wasn't a trainwreck, held up reasonably well - but, she didn't really "say" anything. She did that rhetorical regurgitation that she's so fond of the whole way through. Biden did a better job of 'listing' issues - being specific, particularly on the economy. Palin was far more abstract, waffling on about the GOP myth that Obama is a taxman, despite the facts.

    Both of them where verbose, but Biden was surprisingly less so. When Palin started waxing lyrical about shinging cities and good evil I cringed and chuckled at the same time.

    It was mission accomplished for both camps - Bidens superior grasp of the issues tips the balance in his favour.

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  • 200. At 3:52pm on 03 Oct 2008, emory_douglas wrote:

    #187

    ~ nor your skewed appraisal of the result.

    ~ Biden was admirably restrained.i would have pointed at her and in between peels of laughter asked her to stop winking and reading her answer cards in the wrong order

    ~ Iffel did a poor job !! she was in the tank for Obama and instead she handed the election to the Reps.her book is going to bomb too !

    ~ yes , Palin tore it up and you can have her snarling face joined to a barracuda's body and printed on a sweatshirt.

    ~ Barack does not need Biden to defend him.just to remain calm and watch the mccain / palin ticket implode.

    ~ pass the popcorn.

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  • 201. At 4:02pm on 03 Oct 2008, endorfin wrote:

    I listened to the "debate" and thought it astonishing that this was considered worthy of the term.

    When I debated at school and university, it was always essential to fully develop your argument and above all else to stick to the point; failure to do this would guarantee that you'd be absolutely shredded by the other speaker.

    Last night's farrago seemed to be little more than an opportunity for a trolley dolly to read off cue cards and spout platitudes with absolutely no regard for the questions asked. At one point I thought she was just using random word association rather than trying to maintain any sort of coherency, as though sheer volume of words would mask the lack of substance.

    So an easy win for Biden? Not really; in counterpoint to the easy-on-the-eye Sarah (you just *know* Joe Six-Pack drools over a poster of her in combat gear, don't you?) we were treated to possibly the dullest man on earth, though one who, to his credit, did answer most of the questions, most of the time. The vacuum of his non-personality unfortunately sent his audience to sleep, and it was with real difficulty that I stopped my eyelids drooping by the time he got to his second sentence.

    I don't doubt that both of them really care, and are probably, as individuals, nice people. Maybe I'd enjoy a drink and a chat about the state of the world with them. But neither of them convinced me that they had what it takes to be Vice-President (or, if you will, Perisdent-in-Waiting).

    Biden has the smarts, sure, but a President has to be able to lead, to inspire, to challenge. Bill Clinton did this with ease, as amply demonstrated this week, when he gave a speech which showed us that ALL FOUR of this year's main protagonists are less than stellar.

    As for Sarah Palin? She's a looker, and kind of feisty. She'd be a good salesperson - long on attitude, short on facts, tough as old boots - but for this role she's so far off the pace it hurts. Winking and mugging to the camera? A "shout-out" to Junior High? And this is someone who's supposed to be taken seriously across the world......

    Out of 10? Biden 6, Palin 3.

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  • 202. At 4:04pm on 03 Oct 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    #176 Ed Iglehart


    "capitalism against communism...If one must spend one's life as an employee, what difference does it make whether one's employer is a government or a corporation?"

    Wendell Berry

    With all due respect to the great man, he seems to have spent most of his life as an academic or self-employed.

    I've spent the vast majority of mine as a private sector employee and manager and latterly as a government employee and manager.

    The difference is stark and compelling. Companies are, as Ed Iglehart said above motivated by profits.

    That's (rather comically I always think) seen in the public sector as somehow immoral. It isn't immoral, it's just what companies do. In the British case their company objects usually say 'maximise profits'.

    That means that the private sector is subject to the tyranny of the bottom line. If they don't regard it, they go bankrupt.

    Not so the public sector - and it makes a tremendous difference.

    A British friend did a lot of contract work in state government in the USA. He said the public sector there was just the same.

    He cited as an example a state project which involved replacing a labour intensive job involving two departments with a computer system which involved filling in forms on a screen.

    The state didn't want to lay any of the employees off for whatever reason. They therefore divided the form arbitrarily into two and employees in one department would fill in one half of the form and the other department would fill in the other half of the form.

    It created a lot of extra work and was a great deal more error prone but nobody got laid off. Is that good ?

    Well, I suppose it looks that way for the employees but their sense of achievement - for which most people work, I believe, must have been severely eroded. Still, they got paid - through taxes from other employees in other organisations, private and public, in the state.

    It was certainly not efficient and if that had been the private sector they would have gone bankrupt.

    That's the difference.

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  • 203. At 4:38pm on 03 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Chill0,

    "Wendell Berry
    With all due respect to the great man, he seems to have spent most of his life as an academic or self-employed."
    The latter, mostly. He has plenty to say about education, and
    the future, and
    computers ;-) But my favourite observation about free market capitalism is
    "It is well understood that nothing so excites the glands of a free-market capitalist as the offer of a government subsidy." Heh, heh, heh!
    I just wonder if you are implying that there is something disqualifying about being self-employed?

    ;-)
    ed




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  • 204. At 4:48pm on 03 Oct 2008, sensibletippytop wrote:

    Was this Document Leaked from Palin's Debate Prep?

    http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/10/03/leaked_from_palins_debate_prep.html

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  • 205. At 4:53pm on 03 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Chill0 & all,

    Further to the above, I wonder what proportion of the "employed" actually produce anything concrete at all. My guess is that more than half in the "developed world" produce nothing but documents, and that a large proportion of the rest are simply engaged in moving stuff from one place (or manufacturing sub-process) to another.

    There are certainly very few folk involved in "primary production" (farming, forestry, etc.) I am disinclined to include the "extractive" industries as primary production, and note that modern farming has become more like one of these, what with the use of fertilisers and other drugs to keep exhausted soils "productive".

    Some considerations

    "IN OCTOBER OF 1993, the New York Times announced that the United States Census Bureau would "no longer count the number of Americans who live on farms " In explaining the decision, the Times provided some figures as troubling as they were unsurprising. Between 1910 and 1920, we had 32 million farmers living on farms-about a third of our population. By 1950, this population had declined, but our farm population was still 23 million. By 199l, the number was only 4.6 million, less than 2 percent of the national population. That is, our farm population had declined by an average of almost half a million people a year for forty-one years. Also, by 199l, 32 percent of our farm managers and 86 percent of our farmworkers did not live on the land they farmed. "


    We may have to learn how to grow food again soon.
    "Our model citizen is a sophisticate who, before puberty, understands how to produce a baby, but who at the age of thirty will not know how to produce a potato"-- Wendell Berry
    ;-)
    ed

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  • 206. At 5:04pm on 03 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    What she said
    ;-)
    ed

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  • 207. At 5:05pm on 03 Oct 2008, Alaska-me-Hardplace wrote:

    #108 Allmymarbles

    Re: mispronunciations...

    Other than nucular, she did call him OBiden at one point. Did you catch that?

    Cheers,

    Jeff

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  • 208. At 5:10pm on 03 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref !86

    You have a very altrustic view of unions

    Mine is a more pragmatic.

    They drive up costs.

    Protect bad workers

    Spend more time on promoting a political canidates weather their workers want them or not.

    Talk about corporate heads all ou want but Union leaders are among the biggest parasites in the economy

    Two names: George Meany and Robert Poli

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  • 209. At 5:12pm on 03 Oct 2008, wsdmskr wrote:

    peterm99 wrote: "What is the basis for your opinion that your employer (and ultimately the rest of society) owes you a de facto subsidy for your decision to procreate?"

    My opinion is that all of society owes us "a de facto subsidy for our decision to procreate". That is the whole and entire missive of society en large. Have we all, as a world, gotten so lost among the maze of the myriad issues we face today that we have forgotten the main purpose for having a society to begin with?

    The only reason our ancestors from the era of hunter/ gathering ever banded together in the first place to form primitive societies was to ensure the survival of their future generations. That is, first and foremost, the only reason for society and to ignore that now would indicate that we, as a people, have actually de-evolved.

    Every other talking point we see now health care, education...etc, they are all at their roots concerned with the survival of our species or at least our country's view of what survival of our species should encompass.

    As so famously put by one, now downtrodden, pop star...

    The children are our future.

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  • 210. At 5:20pm on 03 Oct 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    kburns_ireland (#199), can you elaborate on your first statement?

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  • 211. At 5:23pm on 03 Oct 2008, Alaska-me-Hardplace wrote:

    #126 british-ish

    I had to have that one pointed out to me as well. Seems you will only find the word in the American Heritage Dictionary.

    It's one of those words that magically enter the lexicon through repetition. Sort of like 'leveraging'. Leveraging is not a verb folks!

    Bloviating basically means being full of hot air, and pumping up your position using said hot air.

    Hope this helps,

    Jeff

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  • 212. At 6:08pm on 03 Oct 2008, ezekielthemack wrote:

    Justin,

    As I predicted yesterday, Joe Biden won this contest hands down by being himself, and his innate intelligence and experience spoke volumes in comparison to Palin, who for the most part looked a lot like a "rabbit in the headlights".

    The lack of moderation in the debate was very noticeable, and governor Palin must realise that if she is posed a question, she is supposed to answer it, instead of deviating from the question at hand.

    If America still hasn't woken up to the fact that the appointment of Palin as a VP candidate is the worst political appointment in U.S. history they saw that tonight, because all we got from Palin was well orchestrated rhetoric with no gravitas. Heaven knows what this woman would be like if she had to think on her feet.

    Conversely, Joe Biden looked very (vice) presidential in his demeanour, his knowledge and more importantly, in answering the questions that were posed to him. In truth, this wasn't even a competition, as if you don't know who exhibits more (vice) presidential traits of these two, you seriously need your head examined, whatever your political allegiance.

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  • 213. At 6:08pm on 03 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    wsdmskr,

    "
    My opinion is that all of society owes us "a de facto subsidy for our decision to procreate"....
    The children are our future."
    FEWER children is our future. The decision to procreate (beyond replacement level) in an overcrowded world is both misguided and selfish, and will lead to an increase in total misery.
    "First Theorem: "The Dismal Theorem"

    "If the only ultimate check on the growth of population is misery, then the population will grow until it is miserable enough to stop its growth."
    Second Theorem: "The Utterly Dismal Theorem"

    This theorem "states that any technical improvement can only relieve misery for a while, for so long as misery is the only check on population, the [technical] improvement will enable population to grow, and will soon enable more people to live in misery than before. The final result of technical] improvements, therefore, is to increase the equilibrium population which is to increase the total sum of human misery."
    Third Theorem: "The moderately cheerful form of the Dismal Theorem" : .

    "Fortunately, it is not too difficult to restate the Dismal Theorem in' a moderately cheerful form, which states that if something else, other then misery and starvation, can be found which will keep a prosperous population in check, the population does not have to grow until it is miserable and starves, and it can be stably prosperous."
    Kenneth Boulding
    Enjoy the ride
    ed

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  • 214. At 6:18pm on 03 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    A nudge is as good as a wink
    (to a blind horse), especially in a "team of mavericks"!

    ;-0
    ed

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  • 215. At 6:26pm on 03 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Swift Boating Hockey Moms

    ;-O

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  • 216. At 6:32pm on 03 Oct 2008, kburns_ireland wrote:

    ref # 210

    The moderation was pretty weak - I'd love it if she had insisted they actually answer the questions. She allowed it to degenerate into a series of statements and abstractions - which, suffice to say, was beneficial to Palin. What is a debate if not to hear the candidates positions on issues?

    As for the questions - as Justin pointed out, some of them just allowed for them to wax lyrical. They weren't specific enough.

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  • 217. At 6:41pm on 03 Oct 2008, JLPeres wrote:

    I'm sorry, but, having truly grown up in THE middle-class America (or, should I'a said, THE good middle-class America of those good Americans who live by those good American family values), with a working, widowed mother of three manning the helm, I can tell you that: Joe Six-Pack America doesn't live in a, relatively speaking, million-dollar home--on accounta he can't afford it, but then, Joe Six-Pack America can't afford to support a five-kid family, either; Joe Six-Pack America isn't receiving kick-backs of a couple a' thousand a month from the oil companies like all those good Alaskans are; Joe Six-Pack America can't afford a variety of personal transportation vehicles. Joe Six-Pack America isn't in a position to have the assets, holdings and investment opportunities that Sarah an' Todd have.

    I am a 52 year-old middle-class American (well, lower-middle class American at this point), and I can tell you, Sarah Palin is no middle-class American.

    "Washington outsider?" Sorry. Not even close. She's gunning for the biggest corner of the Washington insider's sanctum sanctorum there is, coached and buttressed all along the way by the biggest insiders there are.

    When Sarah Palin is having a good night, and has had oodles of time to prepare and all, she is very good at performing as Sarah Palin--when circumstances allow her to commandeer her form as a distraction from her lack of substance. I've got to say, she is capable of establishing a strong stage presence, no question about it, and can effectively deliver a barb and quip.

    But barbs and quips and zing-y comebacks have no place on the world stage. Folksy? Good for you. Frank? Good for you. Straight talkin'? Good for you. We need that.

    But dealing with the world demands being of, and appreciating your nation's being just one part of, THE WORLD. Every nation deserves peace, sustenance, education and respect for its peoples.

    You want to look at yourself as a pit bull? Good for you, sis. But a strong set of jaws is no substitute for a strong set a' brains.

    Sarah Palin may be good for Alaska (ANWAR aside. . .), but she's not going to be good for America.

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  • 218. At 7:01pm on 03 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Palin annoyed

    ;-)
    ed

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  • 219. At 7:07pm on 03 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    It just gets better!

    ;-)
    ed

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  • 220. At 7:09pm on 03 Oct 2008, tricia79 wrote:

    Didn't you just love how Palin would ask if we could stop looking at the past....and then quote Ronald Reagan.

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  • 221. At 7:38pm on 03 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    211. Alaska-me-Hardplace:

    At last. Thanks. But a horrible word any heritage can do without, I think.

    Especially if other forms appear, as they probably will. Bloviatability? Bloviateableness? Bloviatocracy? (Actually that last one has something; a society run by Madame Blavatsky's, empty and fraudulent, full of hot air and signifying nothing, don't you think? Not that I'm going to recommend its use.)

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  • 222. At 7:52pm on 03 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    218:

    Possibly the only time I've ever found Fox News funny instead of horrifying.

    "What's bad, yaknow? about the meejia, darnit, is, like I want them to let me make my own political commercial instead of asking me questions. Guess that's wanna the things I gotta fix when I'm in Washington."

    Now that wasn't glass, that was fingernails scraping down a blackboard . . .

    Isn't life in the spotlight of the media, just, well, so, likeunfairto politicians? I think she'd end up threatening to nuke us if she became Veep, visited Britain (unlikely, I know) and got interviewed on Newsnight (not a snowball in hell's chance). . .

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  • 223. At 8:17pm on 03 Oct 2008, AJAGUIRRE wrote:

    This debate was foolish pageantry. All parties including the moderator avoided conflict, and so last night Sarah Palin and Joe Biden were not forced to answer difficult questions. Biden answered more substantively, but avoided challenging her opponent.

    I was disappointed with Gwen Ifil, she must have felt pressured to appear fair after her book release was made into an issue. I was also disappointed with David Brooks who said that he had been 'deeply impressed' with Sarah Palin's performance. Both Brooks and Ifil are seriuous journalists, so I was dumbfounded when last night's poor debate was followed by an even less serious analysis.

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  • 224. At 8:19pm on 03 Oct 2008, seamusmcturk wrote:

    Palin by a wink. Both were courteous and reserved their serious attacks for the presidential hopefuls. Biden, as one would expect, had more detail and depth in his responses. He answered all the questions and seemed quite likable . Palin, much no doubt to the chagrin of the Obamettes, didn't implode. She didnt always answer questions put but then she has not got 40 years knowledge. She did however stand her ground offering herself and McCain as the mavericks who would shake up and change American politics. She spoke eloquently of her taking on the big enterprises in Alaska and the American need for energy self-sufficiency. She pointed out that the Iraq surge, opposed by Obama and supported by Mc Cain, was working. She came across as the young, fresh and energetic person she is. Just as Obama beats McCain in the youth and looks department, so with Palin and Biden. For me she won when she winked at her dad in the audience.
    She could have landed more of a punch by pointing out that although Obama's several autobiographies and the Democratic spin machine portray Obama as a reformer his record to date shows no evidence of this at all. Obama has worked the Democratic machine ably and it has worked well for him but he has never rocked the boat or challenged his party. He has always towed the party line. See David Fredosso's book "The case against Barack Obama." There were no knock out blows in this debate but one thing is for sure Palin saved herself and gave the Republican campaign a new lease of life.

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  • 225. At 8:39pm on 03 Oct 2008, matrix3530 wrote:

    "...but what is going on with her voice? It cuts glass."

    As a Brit I guess you have not been to the US midwest, parts of Canada or Alaska. Maybe you just need to watch the movie "Fargo". Palin is the real deal... and hence part of the reason for her popularity.

    I guess Americans could complain about the people in Yorkshire too.


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  • 226. At 9:00pm on 03 Oct 2008, FinMember wrote:

    You must be joking all you people who think sp did well(wink,wink). She did not answer questions just repeated pre scripted and memorized speeches. Her folksy treatment of a very serious event was pathetic. She did not actually fall down or burp. She gave a good performance but the bar was so low for her she just had to show up to get raves. Biden is much more qualified and it became very apparent last night.

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  • 227. At 9:23pm on 03 Oct 2008, liberalcountrymouse wrote:

    The prospect of Sarah Palin being a heartbeat away from the Presidency of the US is truly terrifying. She is patently unfit to be elected VP and I would question McCain's judgement in picking someone so clearly ignorant of world affairs. If he wanted to put a womoan on his ticket could he not at least have found someone with some experience and a rigorous intellect.We cannot have another four years of a 'moose hunting redneck'in the White House. As VP to Bush Dick Cheney has been a malign enough influence these past eight years and I for one have despaired at their foreign policy for its lack of diplomacy and wisdom. If America is to regain its credibility in the world, its people will need to elect a President and VP who are intelligent and articulate and who are able to deploy some wisdom and judgement. The world does not need a self styled maverick backed up by a gun toating, folksy, Mrs Average running the show. One cowboy in the White House has been dangerous enough, we don't need Annie Oakley one step from the Oval Office

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  • 228. At 10:51pm on 03 Oct 2008, Scribesolomon wrote:

    Palin/Biden debate:
    Moderator was weak; Palin was stronger on
    debating style; and Biden was stronger on
    facts and all in all I feel, the debate was a tie.

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  • 229. At 11:03pm on 03 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    207, Alaska.

    That's another gem. I missed it because I do not watch "debates." They make me googley-eyed with boredom.

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  • 230. At 11:04pm on 03 Oct 2008, liberalcountrymouse wrote:

    As an after thought to my comments at 227, suggest Paxman or Humphries, should get themselves over to the States and give this woman Palin a thorough grilling, she's an embarrassment. What was McCain thinking when he selected her as running mate?

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  • 231. At 11:09pm on 03 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    211, Alaska.

    I deplore jargon, or cutesy pseudointellectual words.. "Full of hot air" has much more impact than "bloviating." Justin should be ashamed.

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  • 232. At 11:17pm on 03 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    219, Ed.

    McCain made a big mistake when he blew off his interview with David Letterman at the lat minute. Letterman has been gunning for him ever since.

    The most devastating put down for a candidate is humor. McCain and his meese hunter have laid themselves wide open. Can't wait to see the next SNL.

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  • 233. At 11:59pm on 03 Oct 2008, Alaska-me-Hardplace wrote:

    #221 british-ish

    Thanks for the giggle! 'Bloviatocracy'; I think you may have a winner there. Pretty much describes just about any politician's dream state. Hey folks, let's just keep slamming prefixes and suffixes onto words, shall we. "He/she was superbloviattitudinous".

    In my experience, these words mostly pop up when semi-educated people try to sound more educated than they are (economists?). It may be significant that the first time I heard the word, it was out of Bill O'Reilly's mouth.

    Gary_A_Hill was kind enough to point me to the definition. As I read the link, it crossed my mind that after only 200 or so years, America seems to need its own dictionary of 'English'

    I know that lexicons mutate over time, but geeeez folks, let's try to stay within the basic forms of grammar.

    I have heard 'leverageability' bandied about before.

    Just as a side note; all you folks out there having trouble spelling. There's this function on all computers that I'm aware of called 'spell checking'. It won't correct your grammar, but will improve others' perception of you.

    I've noticed that the number of misspelled words in a blog entry seems to be directly proportional to the extremeness (extremitude?extremageness?) of the writer's views.

    Thanks again!

    Cheers,

    Elitist Jeff (Sorry I stole your schtick Sam. I won't do it again.)

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  • 234. At 00:33am on 04 Oct 2008, SaintDominick wrote:

    I find all the innuendo about Gwen Ifill very disturbing indeed. The insinuations that she was bias because she is writing a book about the progress that African Americans are making in the political arena is ridiculous and reflect not only prejudice but insecurity as well. She acted professionally and treated both candidates the same.

    If anything, she was too lenient on Sarah Palin; she should have reminded Palin of what the questions were every time the governor dodged them and responded with answers that were not germaine to what she had been asked.

    I also find the claims that the press has been easy on Obama preposterous considering the way he has been treated since he decided to run for President. The man has been asked and challenged on just about everything he has done in his life, what he believes in, what he plans to do in the future and has been attacked personally with insinuations that his name, his stay overseas, and the nationality of his father are somehow proof that he is not American enough. Can anyone imagine the outcry that would take place if McCain or Palin were subjected to the same treatment?

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  • 235. At 00:42am on 04 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    230, Liberal.

    "What was McCain thinking when he selected her as running mate?"

    He was thinking with another part of his anatomy.

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  • 236. At 00:51am on 04 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #232

    If McCain loses because he offended an over paid over rated talk show host we are in big trouble.

    Letterman is such an idiotic idealouge, he makes Bill Maher look rational.

    I watched Johny Carson and Dave Letterman you are no Johny Carson.

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  • 237. At 01:11am on 04 Oct 2008, OlaKay wrote:

    History tells us, all major powers/kingdom have to come to an end sometime in order for another power to take over the reigns, just as the British Empire once held sway.

    The great dumbing down of America can only be a good thing for China/India/Japan etc, let America to please continue to promote mediocrity, let GW Bush a "C" student at Yale, hand over to 5th from bottom of the class McCain/6 colleges in 5 years for a journalism degree Palin, why is their economy in meltdown, and foreclosures etc the issue of today?

    Soon not only will America owe China/Japan trillions as presently, their kids (americans) will soon, in the near future read history books about when they once ruled the world.

    Whilst I read today, that prospective candidates for Canadian Prime minister ship were debating fluently in French and English, and putting across their points to their people/electorates, some Americans are cheering a candidate who is close to a joke, as in can’t even put coherent sentences together in her supposed only language of English?!! her grasp/knowledge of policies/plans, as a way out of America’s present predicaments is of comic proportions, ala her Couric interview “I’ll find answers to your belaboured questions later and bring then to ya”

    Two seemingly endless wars and economic mess, running on China/Japans money, yet some of the people loosing jobs and homes want another idiot in charge, good on you “hockey mums and Joe six packs”

    Meanwhile, I hear McCain “knows how to win wars”? Can anyone please remind us which wars he previously helped in winning?


    Not to worry ……..heir apparent “China” awaits!

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  • 238. At 01:34am on 04 Oct 2008, Alaska-me-Hardplace wrote:

    229, 231 allmymarbles

    Re: 229 I agree completely! I'm not entirely sure why I've been so entranced by this election. Possibly I need a shot of confidence in human nature. The outcome will likely vindicate/destroy completely any faith I have in it (I need to put a hard number on my idiot per capita theory). Also, it's all that is on these days. We get mostly US TV up here. This is partly why I look to the BBC for my world and American news.

    By the way, if you want a true cure for insomnia, try sitting up through a Canadian political debate! I wish I could properly type a Lewis Black 'hbbbbbbbba'

    Do you know who he is?

    I wish we had an Obama up here to vote for! I know it sounds simplistic, but I looked in his eyes when I first saw him speak, and I was impressed. The eyes don't lie.

    Three parties is no picnic either. One usually ends up voting against someone, rather than for anyone.

    Re: 231 Agree again. The term 'bloviate' sounds to me like something a cow does, from one particular end of their body. Maybe apt, but lets try to use our words folks. There are hundreds of thousands of perfectly good ones.

    Cheers,

    Jeff

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  • 239. At 01:37am on 04 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    236, Ubermensch.

    I don't care how or why McCain loses, so long as he loses.

    And have you considered that he loused up Letterman's show by canceling at the last minute? That makes McCain, not only inconsiderate, but a lousy politician. Is this how he would handle things if he were on the throne? No wonder he resorts to bang bang instead of talk talk.

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  • 240. At 01:47am on 04 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    237, Ola.

    You forget that America is not the only country in economic distress.

    I think we will survive this mess. It is easy to forget that we are fundamentally a rich country. Think of our agricultura, our natural resources and our technology. Those things don't disappear because the market is down and some financial institutions are failing.

    Who knows. Maybe we will be better off because of it. Calling a halt to overconsumpiton and overspending is not a bad thing.

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  • 241. At 01:58am on 04 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    238, Alaska.

    Whenever I lose faith in Obama (and these tedious sparring speeches can do it) I watch Obama on the Jay Leno Show and the David Letterman show.

    He is very humorous and laid back and absolutely not scripted. He talks to people, not at them, and it is obvious that the interviewers are enjoying themselves. Both shows are on YouTube. The one with Leno is about 11 months old (very funny), the one with Letterman, more recent.

    If you want to know your man, this beats the "debates."

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  • 242. At 02:04am on 04 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #239

    Fine I don't care as long as Obama who is not qualified loses.

    As far as poor little David, the financial crisis is little more important than a mediorce show.

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  • 243. At 02:09am on 04 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Ms Merbles,

    "Think of our agricultura, our natural resources and our technology. Those things don't disappear because the market is down and some financial institutions are failing."
    But topsoil is leaving some fields in greater tonnage than crops, and crops commonly cost more energy than they yield, thanks largely to our "technology".

    It has been rumoured that the Gods (for their own unfathomable reasons) needed to relocate the arth's topsoils to the sea floors, and created humans for the purpose. It may be the first contract we fulfil on-time (or even early?).

    ;-)
    ed

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  • 244. At 02:21am on 04 Oct 2008, kecsmar wrote:

    213 Ed
    "..FEWER children is our future..."

    Here in Japan, this has has a whole new meaning!
    No one is happy here with the negative birth rate and growing elderly population....oh well, today is sunny and warm ;)

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  • 245. At 04:31am on 04 Oct 2008, wsdmskr wrote:

    Ed Iglehart wrote:

    "FEWER children is our future. The decision to procreate (beyond replacement level) in an overcrowded world is both misguided and selfish, and will lead to an increase in total misery."

    Fewer children may very well be the future but the children that are already here need to be supported, protected and given the opportunity to succeed.

    Also it has been quantitatively proven that children who have both parents involved continually, especially in the first years of life, grow up to be more stable and well developed individuals.

    Point being, parental rights should be protected along with any other human rights.

    I believe that over population is a dangerous prospect, although as of right now if the world's food supply was EQUALLY distributed there is enough food to feed the entire planet. That's a fact, look it up.

    My main point though is that the American society lags behind the rest of the modern, industrialized world in almost all indicators of a developed society... infant mortality rates, life expectancy, education, women's rights, infrastructure, civil liberties, AND parental rights. Again fact, look it up.

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  • 246. At 04:38am on 04 Oct 2008, Alaska-me-Hardplace wrote:

    #241 allmymarbles

    Thanks. I had seen the Letterman one, but I watched it again. I especially liked the part where he explained the lipstick on the pig thing. At the end when he says, if he'd meant it that way, that Palin would be the lipstick. I roared! What a quick wit.

    Then he gets a double whammy in by explaining that McCain's policies are the pig, not the candidate himself. Even some in the audience didn't believe that for a moment.

    I personally wouldn't care if he was a rank beginner. Just having someone in the chair with a three digit IQ, for a change, would get my vote. I wish it for my own country as well.

    Goodnight,

    Jeff

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  • 247. At 05:21am on 04 Oct 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #233. Alaska-me-Hardplace: "all you folks out there having trouble spelling. There's this function on all computers that I'm aware of called 'spell checking'."

    Jeff - I don't think spell checks work when entering text on a blog. This iMac will underline what it considers to be misspelling, but it won't replace the words with what is correct. Also, it always sees British English as wrong (colour as opposed to color, etc.) Perhaps it's because I am in the US, but I still spell as I was taught in England. Where we would have thought Jeffrey really should be Geoffrey :)

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  • 248. At 11:29am on 04 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Say It Ain't So, Sarah: Palin Smears Obama With Year-Old Discredited Attack

    ""Now," she declared, "Barack Obama had said that all we're doing in Afghanistan is air-raiding villages and killing civilians. And such a reckless, reckless comment and untrue comment, again, hurts our cause. That's not what we're doing there. We're fighting terrorists, and we're securing democracy..."

    And on Friday, she repeated the line to minimal journalistic resistance.

    "Some of his comments that he has made about the war that I think may -- in my world- disqualifies someone from consideration as the next commander in chief," she told Fox News. "Some of his comments about Afghanistan and what we are doing there supposedly- just air raiding villages and killing civilians. That's reckless.""
    Open mouth, insert foot!

    Salaam, etc.
    ed

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  • 249. At 11:40am on 04 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    David & all,

    "Jeff - I don't think spell checks work when entering text on a blog. This iMac will underline what it considers to be misspelling, but it won't replace the words with what is correct. Also, it always sees British English as wrong (colour as opposed to color, etc.)"
    Firefox will do inline spellchecking in entry forms such as this, and has various "English" dictionaries available. It underlines "suspicious" words, and, as with colour & color above, at this very moment the American spelling is underlined. If I right click on it, I am offered "colour, colon. & col or" to choose by clicking.

    And, Firefox is a better browser all round, though I can't be objective, having been blissfully free of Mickey$oft for a couple of years. Show Windoze the door!

    And it's all FREE (as in freedom, free speech, and cost-free)

    Salaam, etc.
    ed

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  • 250. At 11:51am on 04 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Kecsmar,

    "Here in Japan, this has has a whole new meaning!
    No one is happy here with the negative birth rate and growing elderly population...."
    No one likes unpalatable medicine, however necessary it may be, but I suggest that following the links in my post above may begin an enlightening (if depressing) process. For an exposition even Sarah Palin might understand, try this

    wsdmskr,
    "
    Fewer children may very well be the future but the children that are already here need to be supported, protected and given the opportunity to succeed."
    I couldn't agree more!

    Peace to all ()
    ed

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  • 251. At 2:41pm on 04 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    249, Ed:

    It took me a long time to grasp that on the Mac (System Prefs>International>Language) *English", perversely, apparently means "American English" and 'proper' English is in the list as "British English'. You need to drag the latter to the top of the list, since most Mac software takes its cue from those Preferences.

    I never got over a press release from Cupertino (about the time of OSX10.1, I think) that told us there would no longer be a "British" spelling option for menus and so on, "because British English is a dialect of American English".

    Yorkshire, of course is a sub-dialect of. . .?

    And some bloging software anyway will insist on trying to 'correct' British spelling anyway.

    Since this is a B[ritish]BC site, shouldn't all contributors select a "British English" spellchecking dictionary anyway? Just an idea. . .

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  • 252. At 2:46pm on 04 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    251:

    Sorry, should have addressed that to David [247] really.

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  • 253. At 3:00pm on 04 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    249, 251,252,

    In Firefox one can instantly switch between spell check dialects and languages by right clicking in an entry form and choosing...

    Thus I have on demand, Amerenglish, English, SAenglish NZenglish, and if I wish, Sanskrit or Swahili...

    ;-)
    ed

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  • 254. At 3:31pm on 04 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    I've sometimes wondered if there's a correlation between using an Apple Mac and having 'liberal' (British English definition!) views.

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  • 255. At 4:24pm on 04 Oct 2008, peteatomic wrote:

    Palin essentially was reading off a memorized set of answers that the McCain campaign had given her to do as homework before the debate. She did not have any rebuttal against Biden's claims, other than the vacuous 'that's not true' which was followed by a canned, memorized statement.

    Palin was the quintessential Stepford Wife-- a sloganeering, blank looking robot.

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  • 256. At 4:46pm on 04 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 257. At 5:14pm on 04 Oct 2008, peterm99 wrote:

    re:251 british-ish wrote:

    ". . . a press release from Cupertino . . . "because British English is a dialect of American English"."

    and

    "Since this is a B[ritish]BC site, shouldn't all contributors select a "British English" spellchecking dictionary anyway?"

    I would certainly agree that the first quote is an example of nationalistic hubris from a US company. How would you describe the second quote?

    ;-)

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  • 258. At 5:26pm on 04 Oct 2008, Alaska-me-Hardplace wrote:

    All you folks...

    First I want to apologise. I haven't had someone quote me back before, and I see now that I came off sounding rather condescending. It's not my intention. It's just that every time I see copious spelling errors in a blog entry, it reminds me of the deterioration of education levels in our respective countries (I have a son), and peoples' general drift toward ignoring details.

    Also sometimes bothersome are all the shortcut spellings that some people use, out of laziness, in my opinion. Also, the 'there', 'their', 'they're' thing.

    I have a Mac as well, and it does underline words that it thinks are wrong. I usually highlight the word and then right click on it to find a correct spelling.

    Being from Canada, and having been brought up on 'proper English', the spell checker finding all my 'u's (colour etc.) used to drive me nuts until I found how to set it (a la british-ish). It still doesn't seem to like my 's's instead of 'z's, but I just ignore it now. Every windows machine that I've seen also does something similar. If I know my spelling is correct, I just add it to the dictionary.

    I don't want to start a whole Mac-PC thing here (seriously off topic), but I agree with british-ish that Mac owners seem to have generally more liberal attitudes in life. I am, among other things, a computer tech, so I've met a large number of computer owners, and this seems to ring true. I believe it has something to do with Apple's (Steve Jobs') philosophies, as well as maybe a right brain left brain kind of thing. Macs are generally purchased by people who are in some type of creative acitvity, like art or music.

    Anyway, 'nuff said. I'm at work right now, so I'll sign off for now. I hope you're all having a tickety-boo kinda Saturday.

    Cheers,

    Jeffrey (that's how I spell it David, although the British spelling is probably closer to the original. Maybe from the old Godfroi in French?)


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  • 259. At 5:58pm on 04 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    Yes, Alaska, I know it was OT, I was just amused by the coincidence. Oh, and afaik (being lazy) I think we have "Jeffrey" too.

    We don't however (sidling slyly back on topic) call our sons or daughters Trigonometry or Triggerhappy, or whatever it's short for, much.

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  • 260. At 6:08pm on 04 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Jeff/Geoff & British-ish, & all,
    Spell check language selection

    Please can I be included as liberal/artistic, but using (ancient 'recycled')Intel & ubuntu?

    ;-)
    ed

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  • 261. At 6:08pm on 04 Oct 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    yet mr Justin Web who has yet to ever say a Good word about the Obama Campaign that does not sound like Clinton trying ( but failing) to support obama.

    You who has consistantly over written the smaller and irrelevant points while almost always saying something nice about the GOP cantidate. Want to complain about Gwen treating them both as equals.
    Apparently it is good enough that the barbie speaks But did Banksee do a job on the voice box because it seemed to be a fixed ABC responce to any question.
    A title like " APRIL FOOLS DAY PRANK GONE WRONG" would be more appropriate.

    If you thought palin anything other than a thick cheerleader then you are probably not that smart.

    "weak moderation and" etc what BULL JUSTIN.
    through out this campain the questions have been asked and the weak are you JUSTIN and the press for allowing this Joke to go on so long without being honest enough to say hey did you see her lies.


    "
    '2019: Joe Biden talks about "the people listening to this broadcast" - does he not know TV has been invented? Old codger alert."

    this great comment guess what MR WEBB SOME PEOPLE DO LISTEN TO THE RADIO.

    SOME PEOPLE LISTEN TO THE TV BECAUSE THEY FIND HER WINKING QUIRKY SMILE SO REPULSIVE THEY DON"T WANT TO VOMIT DURING DINNER.


    Gwen allowed us to see the cantidates the fact that the press has been so bad at saying whats there is the problem not the moderators.
    the fact the commentators come on sounding like she did anything other than act like a high school cheerleader bully( female dog) who was rude and frankly the most likely person I could think of to start a war because someone dissed her COW

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  • 262. At 7:12pm on 04 Oct 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    153. At 06:55am on 03 Oct 2008, wsdmskr wrote:
    the best put post on this site

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  • 263. At 7:17pm on 04 Oct 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    153. At 06:55am on 03 Oct 2008, wsdmskr wrote:
    except for this post .
    which is better

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  • 264. At 7:24pm on 04 Oct 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    "Everyone expected Palin to crash and burn, and she didn't. "

    here's the problem . SHE DID.
    just many were so busy saying how "spunky" she is they forgot to also say she was a prize pill.

    She managed to " be articulate"
    but she didn't she was like the talking doll smile wink one of 3 lines.
    Ugly american is what she is.

    Sorry Sam I know she might have seemed hot but she's still a moose.

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  • 265. At 7:38pm on 04 Oct 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #258. Alaska-me-Hardplace: "I have a Mac as well . . . I usually highlight the word and then right click on it to find a correct spelling."

    How do you do that? - My Mac optical mouse only has a single click capability.

    249. Ed Iglehart: "Firefox will do inline spellchecking in entry forms such as this"

    Not with my Firefox browser - it will fill in some forms (as does Safari) but not on blogs. However, some preference selections are greyed out, so possibly I haven't installed it correctly. I even tried using Firefox for this message, but it made no difference. Could it be the operating system? Ed, are you using Linux?

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  • 266. At 7:40pm on 04 Oct 2008, Scribesolomon wrote:

    #236
    After all the ranting of the talk show host against McCain on the assumption he would
    be absconding from the Presidential debate-
    which McCain won after doubling back from
    Washington, having attended to a higher call of duty-I would have loved to see the
    embarassed (sheepish) look on the talk show host's face.

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  • 267. At 7:54pm on 04 Oct 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    259. At 5:58pm on 04 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:
    Yes, Alaska, I know it was OT, I was just amused by the coincidence. Oh, and afaik (being lazy) I think we have "Jeffrey" too.

    We don't however (sidling slyly back on topic) call our sons or daughters Trigonometry or Triggerhappy, or whatever it's short for, much.

    --------------------------
    Trichinosis

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  • 268. At 10:59pm on 04 Oct 2008, SaintDominick wrote:

    Ref 267

    Jack,

    I think Trigger was named after Roy Rogers' horse, which I believe is stuffed in Apple Valley, California.

    There is not much to do in Alaska during those long winters, so watching reruns and engaging in other indoor activities is usually the only options available. Judging by what I see, the Palins have been pretty busy...

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  • 269. At 11:17pm on 04 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    265, David:

    The Mac equivalent for a two-button mouse (or 'right click') is to hold down the control/Apple key on the keyboard and the the mouse button. (You need to do this to completely delete emails from the Trash in Apple's Mail, by the way. Otherwise, all that happens is they simply disappear from view, but they're still there.)

    But with Firefox you need to install the 'British English' dictionary (and then select it from the pop-up menu -- place cursor in field, then control+click)
    https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3366

    Hope this helps.

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  • 270. At 11:22pm on 04 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    267

    Had to look that up. Ha-ha. But I asked a while ago if she'd actually eaten any of thatmoose, but nobody replied . . .

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  • 271. At 11:29pm on 04 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    267:

    Bit slow, there. I've read the symptoms now. "Eye swelling" and "petechiae"?

    So she wasn't winking, then, and she had eaten some of that moose?

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  • 272. At 11:35pm on 04 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    268:

    Named after a horse? You're not serious? Er, the Palins weren't serious . . .I'm speechless.

    And the only joke I can think of making now I know the sire has been stuffed as well will never get past the moderators.

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  • 273. At 01:07am on 05 Oct 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #269. british-ish "The Mac equivalent for a two-button mouse (or 'right click') is to hold down the control/Apple key on the keyboard"

    It kinda works! It allows me to 'learn' the preferred spelling but doesn't correct it, but with further use perhaps it will - like spelling 'colour' as 'colur'. I have Mac OS 10.4.11 installed, which is the newest version for PowerMacs. Haven't bought a newer Intel powered machine yet as many of my present applications appear not to be compatible with the newer Macs.

    With regard to "Trig" Palin I read somewhere that the name is a Norse word meaning "true" and "brave victory", neither of which have much to do with Roy Rogers' horse, which is now in Branson, MO. I would have thought Roy, Dale and Trigger were a bit before Sarah Palin's time!

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  • 274. At 01:18am on 05 Oct 2008, Britishdem wrote:

    And Biden kicked butt in this debate. Palin showed that she was totally out of touch with the public. After all, when it came to talking about the Middle East she was weak on knowledge about the Middle East. She just said the 'surge worked' and 'we Must stop the terrorists', which we should. But what was McCain thinking when he picked somone with such little experience? Oh, yeah, it was a cynical ploy to compete with the first black candidate.

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  • 275. At 01:51am on 05 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    273:
    So were the Vikings I would have thought. That does even less to improve my opinion of Ms Palin. I'd have thought better of her if it had been the horse.

    We've had a certain amount of experience of them over here. I do hope we aren't going to see a repetition only coming from the other direction.

    (My own real name is derived from Old Norse, as it happens. Not to be confused with Old Horse. Or Old Moose. But I prefer to dwell on the Italian half of my ancestry . . .)

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  • 276. At 02:06am on 05 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    David, Yes, I'm using linux (ubuntu), and have nothing but satisfied praise for it. It does take a wee bit of learning, but the process makes you a devotee....

    Peace ()
    ed

    Been using Firefox since long before showing windoze & Gates the door. Good browser.

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  • 277. At 02:11am on 05 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Maverick

    ;-O

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  • 278. At 02:15am on 05 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    274: Britishdem,

    On my part I'm still puzzling over her saying "John McCain knows how to win wars". Which one has he been instrumental in winning? Could it be 'winning' like 'solving' the financial crisis?

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  • 279. At 02:22am on 05 Oct 2008, Alaska-me-Hardplace wrote:

    #260 Ed

    Yes you certainly can be included! It was one of those one-sided statistics. It doesn't mean that all people who don't use Macs are not artistic. Although Apple hardware is superior to most inexpensive PC's, it's mostly Windoze that sucks. My Mac has Intel processors. We Mac people are mostly a friendly bunch. We'll talk with no preconditions (a nod to the blog topic).

    I see you are not a sheeple anyway (artist kind of implies independent thinking), as I see you run Linux on your machine. Thanks for the screen shot.

    Also to David_Cunard

    If you are using one of the older Apple optical mouses (proper usage in this context, I believe), you indeed will have to press 'Control' (not the apple key) and click to get the right button functionality.

    If you have what they call a mighty mouse (with the little scroll ball on it) the right button functionality is actually hidden a bit. You have to go into the Keyboard/Mouse pref pane and under the 'mouse' tab, for the right button select 'secondary click. When you want a right click just lift your left finger a bit while clicking with your middle finger and it will open those contextual menus, among other things.

    By far the best solution though, is to go get yourself a multi-button mouse. One of the first things I did when I bought my Mac was to ditch the stupid mouse. I use a MicroSoft mouse on mine. The scroll wheel also tilts sideways to allow horizontal scrolling as well. Can't live without it now.

    If you buy a mouse that actually says it's Mac compatible, you should install whatever drivers may come with it for added functionality, for instance if the mouse has more than two buttons. But if you plug in any USB mouse with two buttons and a scroll wheel, it will just work, without drivers. I've got the button under the scroll wheel set to be a 'back' button, which is quite handy when surfing. You can't do this with the mighty mouse.

    Another neat feature of OS X is if you hold your control key and scroll with the wheel, it will zoom in your screen. I use it sometimes to read the tiny text on some web pages.

    Another alternative to the spell checking thing is to compose your posts in your favourite word processor, then just paste it into the comment box on this site. I did that for a few of my longer spiels. Looks like this is becoming one of those.

    British-ish:

    Nice segue back to topic! Does all the computer talk mean that we just needed a bit of a break from rehashing all this political crap? Do you think Sarah maybe named her kids so they would grow up knowing how to fight? Sort of like Johnny Cash's old song 'Boy named Sue'

    Cheers everyone!

    I'll stick to 'Jeff' to avoid confusion.

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  • 280. At 02:48am on 05 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    279, Jeff:

    Yes, by and large. But to get back to the real moose, I've just read a British brigadier's remarks on "winning" wars:

    "We're not going to win this war.
    "It's about reducing it to a manageable level of insurgency that's not a strategic threat and can be managed by the Afghan army. If the Taleban were prepared to sit on the other side of the table and talk about a political settlement, then that's precisely the sort of progress that concludes insurgencies like this.
    That shouldn't make people uncomfortable."

    Now why do I have a feeling that it might make some people very uncomfortable? But then, she doesn't read the Sunday Times, does she? And this army commander is British, too, and you can't see Britain from Alaska.

    Not, however, that I imagine the Obama side is going to take much notice either.

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  • 281. At 04:11am on 05 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    276, british-ish.

    You can't take her seriously. She is following the Rove technique; i.e, say anything at all and let others refute it.

    I have no idea why people are being so generous about her performance. She sounded like what she is - a cheap politician.

    Anyway, the Republicans can put a brave face on it, but they didn't get a bump up out of her. Instead Obama bumped up. Not only did McCain cede Michigan, but the three most recent national polls put Obama ahead by 7 points (8, 6, 7). He is also now listed as solid for Oregon and Pennsylvania.

    The only thing left is smearing and they will use their pit bull for that. When he goes solid for Ohio, or Virginia, or Florida the election is his (at least according to the polls).

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  • 282. At 04:15am on 05 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    269, british-ish.

    When the baby's name was first mentioned I read somewhere that it was Trig for "trigonometry." Now they are saying "Trigger." Either the first report was wrong, or they decided it was too embarrassing. I think it is pretty embarrassing to be named after a horse.

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  • 283. At 04:16am on 05 Oct 2008, Alaska-me-Hardplace wrote:

    #280 british-ish

    Yeah, any time I've seen one of the military leaders interviewed, they all seem to say the same thing. They've all tried to rattle Bush's cage to point out the fallacy of 'winning' this war.

    I also see most any right leaning politician speak of 'winning' and 'victory' etc. whenever a Democrat comments on the wars (it's a ploy to avoid talking about details, while rousing the cheerleaders).

    It truly is just like high school. Rah rah rah! By using 'victory' and 'defeat', they cloud the issue for the less perceptive among us, because of course everyone wants to win, right? Over-simplification of the problem is a favourite Republican trick.

    I have a history major buddy who pointed out to me once that this is not even mainly a religious war. These people don't like the States mostly because past and present leaders have gone into many countries, yanked out the ruling party and installed their own puppets to make sure the oil keeps flowing. But the populace of those countries have to deal with these puppets on a daily basis, and hey guess what, that pisses them off.

    And the US public keeps saying "why do these people hate us so much?" Here's the answer folks. It's your loud-mouth one trick pony of an overbearing president that's causing most of this. Sure, some of the terrorists are just extremist blowhards themselves, but someone has to throw the first punch. Trouble is, a lot of Americans believe that 911 was the first punch.

    I blows me away when those politicians have the gall to accuse Russia of invading a sovereign country and forcing their ideals on a helpless population. Something about a pot and a kettle perhaps.

    I believe that just having a more moderate person running the show in the US, would automatically reduce the 'terrorist threat' in and of itself. If the president had used even a third of the money spent in Iraq to bolster the borders, harden power plant sites etc., basically clean up their own back yard, they could sleep fairly soundly at night. And as Obama pointed out, without the bluster, the US would likely gain worldwide allies much more easily, the few times they have to defend themselves.

    I thought up a saying the other night. Freedom doesn't mean you're free to be dumb. I also don't quite get what freedom it is that they are so worried about losing. Somebody present me with a scenario for that please.

    P.S. I hope she doesn't move to Haines Junction AK, then she'll be able to see Alberta from her house. We have oil too...

    I'm having trouble keeping this short, so I'll go for the evening.

    Pleasant dreams to all.

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  • 284. At 04:44am on 05 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    Tina Fey did it again on Saturday Night Live. Did you miss it?

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  • 285. At 05:25am on 05 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:

    "By using 'victory' and 'defeat', they cloud the issue for the less perceptive among us, because of course everyone wants to win, right?"

    And, of course, you're not one of those "less perceptive among us" are you ?


    "Sure, some of the terrorists are just extremist blowhards themselves, but someone has to throw the first punch. Trouble is, a lot of Americans believe that 911 was the first punch."

    Hey yeah, they're just "blowhards" aren't they. Madrid, Beslan, Bali, London...all just talk ?You're right , too many Americans do think that 911 was the first punch...they've forgotten the killing of 300 Marines on a peacekeeping mission in Beirut in 1983, they've forgotten about The WTC bombing in 1993. Oh, and what was the "first punch" that caused the Bali bomb ?Ask your "history major buddy" that question.


    "I blows me away when those politicians have the gall to accuse Russia of invading a sovereign country and forcing their ideals on a helpless population. Something about a pot and a kettle perhaps."


    What "ideals" have the US forced onto Iraq? Did those millions of Iraqis voting in their first democratic elections do it at gunpoint ?

    "Freedom doesn't mean you're free to be dumb. "

    Yes, it does - which is exactly why you are allowed to write comments to this blog.

    "I also don't quite get what freedom it is that they are so worried about losing."

    Oh, didn't your "history major buddy" tell you about that. Try living in Iran or Saudi for a few months and then you might learn something about freedom.





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  • 286. At 05:27am on 05 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    282:

    Or the part of a gun that makes it go bang? (If that's what it does, of course.)

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  • 287. At 05:28am on 05 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:

    "The only thing left is smearing and they will use their pit bull for that."

    Funny you should mention smearing before you then post a jokey comment about a baby with Down's Syndrome. Have you no sense of irony?

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  • 288. At 05:32am on 05 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:

    "I have no idea why people are being so generous about her performance. She sounded like what she is - a cheap politician. "


    Yeah, she is cheap..in that she hasn't cost the American taxpayers the millions that Biden has had out of them in his 35 wasted years in office.
    Maybe people are being generous about her performance because she didn't sound like just another smooth talking Washington politico. And as for Biden he certainly told those dozen or so lies he told real smooth....just like an expensive lawyer.

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  • 289. At 05:38am on 05 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:

    "I've just read a British brigadier's remarks on "winning" wars:

    "We're not going to win this war."


    I wonder if this was the same British Brigadier who told the world that the British Army had brokered a peace deal with the Shia Militias in Basra ? It turns out that peace deal was the British Army's way of getting out of Basra without dealing with the problem. Also sounds like the same kind of Britsh Army officer who decided surrendering to the Imperial Armuy of Japan without firing a shot was a good idea.

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  • 290. At 05:48am on 05 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:

    "After all, when it came to talking about the Middle East she was weak on knowledge about the Middle East. "


    Yeah, I mean how could she cope with that old Middle East expert, Joe Biden. Tell us again Joe who exactly was it that "kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon" ? That's right - no-one did, nice one Joe.
    Oh and does America REALLY spend as much in "3 weeks in Iraq than it has in the seven years we've been in Afghanistan ?" I guess math isn't Joe's strong point. But then this was a guy who said Obama wasn't fit to be commander-in-chief until Obama named him VP and suddenly Joe changed his mind !!

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  • 291. At 06:09am on 05 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:

    289:

    It did occur to me that something on the lines of "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" might turn up as a response to that post; emphasised, of course, by selective quotation.

    So I don't think a response not based on facts or any thoughtful consideration or discussion of the problem is worthy of any other reply from me.

    Perhaps you may come to see why people in Britain are increasingly unlikely to support helping the USA out in anything like this in the foreseeable future.

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  • 292. At 06:17am on 05 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:

    "So I don't think a response not based on facts or any thoughtful consideration or discussion of the problem is worthy of any other reply from me."


    Well, that's a relief...I guess your very selective quote was based on "thoughtful consideration" rather than just another kneejerk attempt to belittle Sarah Palin.

    As for your prediction that the British people won't help America again - wrong ! But when they do, the usual anti-American old fogeys that litter the upper echelons of the British Army will be there to moan "we're all doomed".

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  • 293. At 08:34am on 05 Oct 2008, LadyBobbieBea wrote:

    Palin reminds me of my black cocker spaniel with all that hair and those big soulful eyes. I don't really think McCain has a high opinion of women and chose her only to satisfy those who wanted a woman on the ticket and those who are anti-abortion. And, I think he's perverse in knowing you just can't slap a cocker spaniel even when they act silly. It would be too cruel.

    b

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  • 294. At 08:58am on 05 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    293, Lady.

    I think Palin can take care of herself. If McCain treatrf her the way he treats his wife she would probably give him one along the ear hole.

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  • 295. At 09:05am on 05 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    289, viva.

    You probably do not have personal knowledge of Iraq. It would be extremely difficult to "win" a war there, and it would be completely impossible in Afghanistan. Ditto Iran.

    Our politicians will say anything to get elected. McCain is talking nonsense. Don't be taken in.

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  • 296. At 09:17am on 05 Oct 2008, LadyBobbieBea wrote:

    No. 294 Ms. Marbles

    no doubt. just saying her initial presentation of herself and her puppy dog charms must be confusing to those who find themselves in a position to challenge her then realize she's just another sleazy politician. Maybe I give McCain too much credit in the human dynamics department of knowing she'd have that effect on people.

    I'd love to stay up and play, but it's after 1:00 a.m. and I've been working too long.

    b

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  • 297. At 12:47pm on 05 Oct 2008, DJRUSA wrote:

    In your assement of dept of knowlege you claimed that Biden was more Knowlegable while ignoring fantastic misstatments he made.

    Biden falsely claimed France and the U.S. "kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon." WHAT???

    He also said we spent more in the last three weeks in Iraq than we have spent in Afganistan since we invaded - false.

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  • 298. At 3:51pm on 05 Oct 2008, magic327 wrote:

    I don't get it. What is your issue with Biden using the word "broadcast"? I work in film/tv, and we use the word fairly often.

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  • 299. At 4:25pm on 05 Oct 2008, cyrilcroydon wrote:

    This is reader comment on another site. Sums up Sarah Palin superbly and what it tells us about the GOP. I cannot understand how any fair minded person can say that she "won" the debate, if you could even call it a "debate". It was series of two minute soundbites, and even then Palin had to keep repeating the same lines over and over again.

    "Really any woman who considers herself a conservative or identifies with the Republican party should be embarrassed by Sarah Palin. Seriously, this is the female face of the party. The debate was a joke, setting the bar so low that as long as she didn't drool all over herself it's considered a victory. That is what Republican women should be proud of? Her winking and talking "folksy", you betcha goshdarnit, that's the way the party wants to represent itself to the country and the world?

    The fact that so many other qualified women in the party, like Olympia Snowe (whom I admire greatly), Kay Baily Hutchinson, Christie Todd Whitman (my former governor) are able to communicate and connect with the American people, were passed over for this disaster of a candidate, is greatly disheartening to me as a young woman. Say what you want about Hillary Clinton, but she didn't ask to be treated differently. She was able to take on the big boys and even throw some elbows, too. I just can't believe this is the example that the Republicans want to set for the future and for young women especially."


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  • 300. At 4:50pm on 05 Oct 2008, Alaska-me-Hardplace wrote:

    #285 vivaelcid

    You've just proven most of my points. Thanks.

    The more perceptive among us will know what I mean by this.


    "Ignorance is a voluntary misfortune"

    Jeff

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  • 301. At 5:19pm on 05 Oct 2008, cyrilcroydon wrote:

    http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/vp-debate-open-palin-biden/727421/

    Tina Fey's latest spoof. Fantastic stuff. Who says yanks don't do satire!

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  • 302. At 9:04pm on 05 Oct 2008, aloafofbread wrote:

    Now that Sarah has been acclaimed as a highly effective, well informed and rapier-like debator, can the velvet gloves with which the media currently handle her now be removed?

    I don't recall them treating Hillary as such a delicate flower.

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  • 303. At 9:31pm on 05 Oct 2008, liberalcountrymouse wrote:

    In agreement with cyrilcroydon at 299. If McCain wanted a token woman on his ticket could he not at least have found an intelligent one? Seems there were plenty of other eminently better qualified Repulican women. His choice says a lot about his attitude to women, if heaven forbid the pair of them get into the White House, he might find he has made a major miscalculation because she is exactly in Bush's image, dim, dangerous and deluded.

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  • 304. At 10:40pm on 05 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    302, aloa.

    You forget. We have Tina Fey.

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  • 305. At 10:50pm on 05 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    285, viva.

    As usual your history is very selective. Anything to win a point, right, Gov. Palin?

    "Try living in Iran or Saudi for a few months and then you might learn something about freedom."

    I lived six months in Saudi Arabia and 16 years in Iran. Your definition of "freedom" has no meaning. As usual, you have no idea what you are talking about.

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  • 306. At 1:18pm on 06 Oct 2008, emory_douglas wrote:

    viva is a coward like mccain.

    he is probably making haste to Washington to ' help out'.

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  • 307. At 03:31am on 25 Dec 2008, dennisjunior1 wrote:

    Justin:
    I watched the Vice-presidential debates and, Biden did a wonderful job and his--conduct of his time in the debates only....

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