BBC BLOGS - Justin Webb's America
« Previous | Main | Next »

Biden a necessary antidote

Justin Webb | 11:47 UK time, Saturday, 23 August 2008

Would he have made this choice a year ago? Six months? Even a few weeks? Joe Biden is Vladimir Putin's contribution to American politics - he is a necessary antidote to the Obama lack of worldly wisdom, which before Georgia was a bit academic to most Americans or amorphous and unfocused as an issue (perhaps they could take a punt, roll the dice as Bill C helpfully put it) but post-Georgia is back at the top of the pile of concerns.

McCain did well on Russia - he avoided frightening threats but managed to seem tough and aware. He took the 3AM call. Obama needs a pal who can do the same. But something of the Obama appeal has been diminished by the choice - it is going to be very difficult to rail against Washington insiders with one at his right hand. There is also - if Biden performs well - the Dukakis Lloyd Bensen issue, which is, to put it delicately, Why is it this way round: why isn't the able, experienced, reassuring guy the one at the top of the ticket?

Here are some early thoughts from the wise, in The Atlantic and Newsweek

Comments

  • 1. At 12:20pm on 23 Aug 2008, chancythegardener wrote:

    Justin, are you trying to wind us up ?

    McCain's belligerence towards Russia was instant thuggery and there is way to go on that story seeing that one of McCain's main sidekicks is a bagman for the Georgian President.




    Complain about this comment

  • 2. At 12:38pm on 23 Aug 2008, SaintDominick wrote:

    Foreign policy experience is only one of the reasons Obama has been falling in the polls and, quite frankly, I doubt Biden will be enough to change the growing perception that Obama is not up to the task of being President.
    He needed someone like Al Gore or even a Michael Bloomberg to energize the party, instead, he chose a safe running mate who in spite of his foreign policy experience has failed to impress American voters in his bids for the Presidency.
    I am still leaning for Obama because I like his economic proposals better than McCain's, which are nothing more than maintaining the status quo, but I can't say that I am overly excited about the prospect of an Obama/Biden Presidency.

    Complain about this comment

  • 3. At 12:40pm on 23 Aug 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    '...Obama needs a pal who can do the same...' really ? You think the vice-president will do that ?

    I know it's metaphorical and you're talking about advice but that raises some difficult questions.

    Bill Clinton acknowledged that Rwanda was his worst foreign policy mistake. It cost anywhere up to 800,000 people their lives.

    Joe Biden wanted to send American troops to Sudan. Not many - but it was a big statement. Personally, I agree with him that military force should be used but then, I'm not American.

    Who is going to make Barack Obama's foreign policy mistake ? America plays such a big part on the world stage that it's becoming more difficult to separate a moral stance at home on social provision from a moral stance on poverty and murder in the wider world.

    Then of course the question arises - how is Sudan different from Iraq ? Kurds and Shia were being murdered in hundreds of thousands by Saddam. What is the moral position on that ?

    As a last thought - the money that will be saved by bringing the troops home from Iraq - and both candidates will do that - will it really pay for universal healthcare in a time of recession ?

    Complain about this comment

  • 4. At 12:41pm on 23 Aug 2008, BlackenedBoy wrote:

    In know, I thought the same thing when Biden was announced.

    I'm glad that Obama picked him, as I think he is an excellent candidate, but three issues stood out in my mind:

    1. During the early primaries, Biden was one of my favorites to be president. His experience, personality, policies, and background all appealed to me. Some will call him a better option than his running mate.

    2. The Obama mystique has indeed taken a hit, now that the campaign isn't entirely comprised of Washington outsiders. Tim Kaine, the Democratic governor of Virginia whose fairytale rise in a Red state shocked the political community, would have maintained that sense of magic, but Obama went the very practical route of picking someone more electable. I think his decision is wise.

    3. Biden reminds me very much of someone else who ran on a presidential ticket and lost: John Kerry. Both are Northern Senators, both Roman Catholics, both seasoned policy experts given to occasional verbal blunders, and both rather longwinded.

    Both, also, mind you, are far more able to lead than the Republicans who defeated one and faces down the other, but to the American people, as easily manipulated as they are, this didn't and probably won't now make much of a difference.

    There is one advantage that Biden has, though, that John Kerry never did: he can connect with the middle and working class. That, and his Northern roots (Ohio and Pennsylvania suddenly look much more tenable) could be crucial.

    Complain about this comment

  • 5. At 1:00pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

  • 6. At 1:17pm on 23 Aug 2008, RFK2008 wrote:

    A poor choice, for the first time I genuinely think Obama could lose. I would have quite liked Clinton, but would have preferred Bayh.

    Biden comes with the same 'big problem' as Clinton, he is part of the Washington Obama has been telling everyone he wants to change so much.

    Biden will not swing the Reagan Democrats to Obama. He will not appease the disillusioned Clinton voters. He might make Obama look mildly better on foreign policy, but not enough to topple John McCain's solid lead in this area.

    Is this campaign running out of steam, is the thinking drying up. Where is the inspiration ad bravery that won all those primaries!

    Complain about this comment

  • 7. At 1:19pm on 23 Aug 2008, Candace9839 wrote:

    Bush has been deferring to Cheney throughout his administration, but I do not get the sense that is why Obama chose Biden. He wants someone to work with him to solve what will be very difficult problems both here and abroad, and in Biden Obama gets the practical experience that will help him do that better than some of the less experienced short list candidates.

    Complain about this comment

  • 8. At 1:33pm on 23 Aug 2008, justcorbly wrote:

    Biden will be fine, and certainly interesting.

    I doubt that the Georgian flap had much to do with this, though. McCain exploited it with some chest thumping, but he would have us go to war to defend an indefensible country. Typical McCain and typical GOP: Confuse your own demented sense of morality with the nation's interests and launch stupid wars.

    The U.S. can do little or nothing about events in Georgia, just as Russia would have no recourse if the U.S. sent the National Guard into Mexico to seize control of a few square miles alng the border to ward off drug gangs.

    The real issue here is that the Bush admnistration, after 7 years of staring into Putin's soul, has had negligible impact on Russian behavior and appeared taken aback by its actions in Georgia. The Georgian conflict has been going on for years. Why weren't they paying attention?

    Complain about this comment

  • 9. At 1:37pm on 23 Aug 2008, pdlodge wrote:

    Biden himself said that Obama is not ready lead, on the campaign trail in 2007.

    This will be a disastrous pick. He should have gone with Bayh.

    Complain about this comment

  • 10. At 1:49pm on 23 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 11. At 1:51pm on 23 Aug 2008, abdulmismail wrote:

    Obama has shot himself in the foot. Kathleen Sebelius or Caroline Kennedy as VEEP would have sealed the Presidency for Obama. Biden should have been kept for the Secretary of State slot in an Obama administration, which is where his foriegn policy experience would have been put to good use.

    Here are a few questions to both sides.

    1. The Republicans are trying to capitalise on this selection pointing out that this proves Obama isn't ready to lead. I have a couple of questions to the Republicans. How much foreign policy experience did George W. Bush have before he became President? In fact, how many countries did he even visit prior to becoming President?

    2. To the Democratic supporters. Why in the world would the selection fo Biden do any justice to Obama's supposedly faltering campaign? The former opposed the latter at every step of the way during the nomination process. Obama used the "Iraq War" issue to gain the nomination (although it isn't confirmed yet) against Hillary and now he selected someone who was in full favour of the War.

    It's what a number of people outside the US say. Democrat? Republican? It does matter because nothing will change.

    Complain about this comment

  • 12. At 2:32pm on 23 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Abdul,

    I think youu'll find Biden was and is among the minority who actually voted AGAINST the Iraq adventure, and has vehemently opposed it at every opportunity.

    And, he's got a sense of humour!

    Salaam/Shalom
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 13. At 2:43pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Biden ran for President twice and lost miserably. He won't gain many votes for Obama. Seeing that he changed his mind about Iraq, he's a flip flopper, prone to major errors on serious issues at least in his own mind. He favors the breakup of Iraq into three autonomous regions with the sovereignty of nearly independent countries along ethnic lines with a weak central government, a sure prescription for a civil war. This also fails to take into consideration that much of the oil rich territory especially in the North is disputed.

    Senator Clinton said just a few months ago that Obama was unfit to be Commander-in-Chief yet now she endorses him. Was she lying then or is she lying now? That's a favorite question lawyers ask witnesses of the opposition when they are inconsistent only bettered by; when did you stop beating your wife? Or maybe she admits her judgement was flawed back in March and April. How about today, did it get any smarter in the last few months? Or maybe Obama secretly went to a military acadamy and had a military career since March and we just didn't notice.

    If Hillary Clinton had wanted to be President of the United States, she should have divorced her husband as soon as his term of office ended demonstrating that infidelity is unacceptable. That would have been a perfect segue into her playing the anti-Europe card. Playing the anti-America card worked beautifully for Schroeder and Chirac, putting America's interests first would have been a natural for her. She'd have had endless material to bash all of her opponents in both parties with. But she is after all a foolish tyro who missed her chances, she's out of the game, probably for good. Good riddance. Mabye if Obama gets elected, he can apppoint her to an ambassadorship...in Mongolia.

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/03/11/obama_clinton_hasnt_passed_com.html

    Every President gets tested shortly after he takes office. Bush failed miserably around April of 2001 showing extreme weakness, timidity, and indecisiveness in his reaction to the forcing down of an American military reconnaissance plane over international waters by a Chinese fighter pilot who played chicken with it, crashed into it wing to wing and went down in the drink. The American plane was forced to make an emergency landing on Chinese territory where the plane was dismantled and the crew held hostage for several days. That set the tone for the next eight years. What would Obama do if he gets tested similarly, nuke Beijing? He grew up as a street smart kid, he's no pacifist. He's ready to attack Pakistan.

    Complain about this comment

  • 14. At 2:59pm on 23 Aug 2008, shanbo5150 wrote:

    No mention of Biden's outrageous 1987 plagiarism of a speech delivered by former British Labour Party leader, Neil Kinnock? Though the BBC may be remiss in discussing it, you can bet your bottom Dollar Obama's opponents in the States won't show any reticence in doing so.

    Complain about this comment

  • 15. At 3:02pm on 23 Aug 2008, lovelokest wrote:

    I find it fascinating that you never say anything negative about McCain.

    Here are a few McCain fun facts:
    -First he was against the Bush tax cuts, but now he is for them.

    -He used to be pro-choice, now he thinks that Roe v Wade should be repealed.

    -He parodied the Beach Boy's song "Barbara Ann" with the lyrics "Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" and thought it was funny.

    -After his wife playfully twirled his hair and said that he was getting a little thin up there, he responded with "At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you ****."

    -He doesn't know how many houses he owns (at least 7!) and thinks that in order to be rich, you have to make at least $5 million a year.

    -He left his first wife, who waited for him while he was a POW and who was in a car crash during that time that require 23 operations and left her 5 inches shorter, for a beer heiress 17 years his junior.

    -He agrees with Bush's ecomonic plan, which has left us here in the US with a failing economy and a housing market that is imploding.

    Complain about this comment

  • 16. At 3:08pm on 23 Aug 2008, SaintDominick wrote:

    Biden was chosen because of his foreign policy expertise and his appeal to blue collar workers, two areas where Obama is in serious trouble. Unfortunately, Biden's experience and his combative character will not be enough to sway the opinion of those who are concerned about Obama's lack of foreign police experience and who view him as an elitist because of his education and the emphasis on intellect acumen that he demonstrates in his speeches. In fact, Biden's assertion that Obama is not ready to be President will become the centerpiece of the GOP campaign.
    As distasteful as it is to acknowledge it, Obama's greatest liability is his race. Yes we have made a lot of progress, but we have not reached the point where racial prejudice is no longer a factor.
    In a country divided politically in half, racial bias and dissaffected Clinton voters will be enough to sway the results of the upcoming election.
    What is really surprising to me is not the fact that the polls show McCain running neck and neck with Obama, but that Obama has managed to remain competitive against McCain.
    In a way, the GOP handed an ace to Obama by nominating an elderly gentleman whose time has past. If Romney had won the GOP nomination Obama would have been a distant memory by now.

    Complain about this comment

  • 17. At 3:13pm on 23 Aug 2008, Steve wrote:

    Justin,
    What exactly did McCain do regarding Georgia ? You failed to mention his lobbying connections to the country and didn't pick up on the fact that he was talking to the Russians, after consistently berating Obama for wanting to talk to aggressors. McCain is a man who tells everyone he is one thing whilst behaving in the opposite manner.

    Complain about this comment

  • 18. At 3:32pm on 23 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Dominick,

    Try the other side of bed for getting up tomorrow. I just don't share your pessimism. I think Biden is an excellent choice, and in no way an indication of desperation on the part of the very well-oiled Obama campaign machine.

    As far as the polls go, I'll make a small prediction that we've seen the bottom.

    On the other hand, we're a long way from the bottom in economic terms. The worst is yet to come.

    Virtual drinks are on me. To the future!
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 19. At 3:32pm on 23 Aug 2008, justcorbly wrote:

    Caroline Kennedy???!

    Abdul made a little joke, eh?

    Complain about this comment

  • 20. At 3:36pm on 23 Aug 2008, MikeIL wrote:

    Guess Obama needs someone with experience to help him learn how Washington works.

    Complain about this comment

  • 21. At 3:39pm on 23 Aug 2008, RajatBan wrote:

    Perhaps Republican satirists will delight in the fact that Biden appears to be short for Bin Laden.

    Complain about this comment

  • 22. At 3:42pm on 23 Aug 2008, JonathanFL wrote:

    Selecting Biden makes me think that Obama plans to bank his presidency on some major foreign policy initiatives during his first term.

    Getting it right in the Middle East could have an impact on gas prices, terrorism, and a host of other issues.

    Cuba, Venezuela, Palestine, Pakistan, and Iran also present problems begging for immediate top notch diplomacy.

    Obama, Biden, and a major league Secretary of State could form an effective foreign policy juggernaut.

    Complain about this comment

  • 23. At 3:43pm on 23 Aug 2008, omniantipod wrote:

    Given how much McCain seems to have been struggling to keep up with campaigning recent, there's no way I'd trust him to be quick enough on his feet mentally to handle a serious crisis. He just comes across as a doddery old man, even if he has "worldly wisdom".

    I can't imagine him handling a crisis at the top of a chain of command deftly, or being able to quickly adapt to whatever new information comes to hand.

    Complain about this comment

  • 24. At 3:49pm on 23 Aug 2008, TimothyR444 wrote:

    Biden is a terrible choice - Obama could not have done worse.

    Biden is hard-left, and a ridiculous figure, with plenty of foolish and tasteless remarks to his credit.

    How could they have made such an incredible mistake?

    Fascinating.

    Complain about this comment

  • 25. At 4:03pm on 23 Aug 2008, chancythegardener wrote:

    #14

    I can assure you that the BBC don't ignore the Neil Kinnock plagiarism. They go on and on about it - always have done and mention it in the same breath as the words 'Joe Biden' ever since 1988.

    There should be a statute of limitations on verbal gaffes - certainly as the good senator seems to have served his country pretty well during the intervening 20 years.

    #16

    According to Rasmussen, Biden polls the highest with seniors, another group that Obama needs to reach out to.

    Complain about this comment

  • 26. At 4:04pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    lovelocusts

    President Reagan once said jokingly "we begin bombing Russia in five minutes." The Soviet rocket forces immediately went on high alert.

    Joe Biden's second wife is about 9 years younger than he is. So what. There's no logic in love or loving locusts.

    The fiasco in the home mortgage industry which is impacting the entire world's economy had nothing to do with government policy, it was strictly a matter of private industry that would have happened no matter who was in the Oval Office or in Congress. Even most financial experts didn't see it coming. At best, Congress and the President can only affect it at the margins. In the end, even the Federal Reserve does not have the power to mitigate it. Only the Treasury will be able to affect it, either by not printing lots of money leading to recession or even depression or by printing lots of money leading to inflation and further devaluation of the US dollar. Since its bitter lesson in the 1930s, it has always taken the latter course in comparable circumstances of massive unpayable debt because it is the lesser of two evils. It is already following that course. If the dollar doesn't collapse against other currencies, it's only because the impact to them is even greater.

    Johnny Appleseed;

    If Obama is elected, he'd better forget about foreign policy initiatives for a long time. He'll have more than his hands full solving the problems already facing the US without looking for new ones such as the so called Palestinians which don't.

    Complain about this comment

  • 27. At 4:13pm on 23 Aug 2008, DougTexan wrote:

    Ah, he did what he was expected to do by the party, saving himself from the Clintons. There is no 'change' in him picking the 'old school' chairman of the foriegn relations committee. He is 'just' a politician.

    I wouldn't vote for him anyway, but I still think Govenor Christine Gregoire of Washington would of been great VP and then President following him (if he were to win, and he might have if he had picked her and not a two time loser).

    Loveless child #15
    So McCain is divorced, so is 50 plus percent of the US. He has property and isn't sure exactly which are his, his wifes or just investment, he's married to the richest women he knows!!

    I'm anti abortion, but pro choice, I mean, you can make the choice to do it or not, with protection or not. Have the abortion or not. There is a fine line between a non issue and a valid one, and this is truely not an issue a president is having any dealings with in todays world.

    The Clintons were broke when Bill got the office, richer than BhO when they left. Bill cheated on his wife while President, and left the office with an economy that was less than stellar. Big whoop.

    Point of Biden is all wrong, kinda like saying "I am not ready to be president".

    fall from grace, losing place

    peace people

    Complain about this comment

  • 28. At 4:22pm on 23 Aug 2008, AnonymousCalifornian wrote:

    In the "Profile: Joe Biden" BBC article, Delaware is referred to as a northeastern state. Geographically, that is the case, but technically (or traditionally?) Delaware is considered a part of the South, and a Southern state. Sort of how a bunch of states in the mideast of the country are referred to as the 'Midwest.'

    Anyway, smart choice by Obama. The only major disadvantage of choosing Biden is that both Biden and Obama are seen as voting quite liberally (by American standards, and liberal as in leftist).

    Complain about this comment

  • 29. At 4:27pm on 23 Aug 2008, FlacidCasual wrote:

    From what I've seen and heard of Biden, he seems like a top bloke. He has the second lowest income of any Senator because his only interest outside the Senate is teaching a law class on Saturday mornings in his home town. He maintains no ties to lobbyists. He comes across as a passionate and committed public servant. I think he'll be a very strong advocate for the ticket.

    Complain about this comment

  • 30. At 4:35pm on 23 Aug 2008, AnonymousCalifornian wrote:

    #16:

    "Yes [Americans] have made a lot of progress, but [Americans] have not reached the point where racial prejudice is no longer a factor."

    Definitely personally agree with this statement. Any American would be foolish to argue that 'race' won't play a role, both against and for Obama and McCain. However, personally wouldn't consider racism to be "Obama's greatest liability." For some people (code: a few 'whites' who are life-long Democrats, who have socialist views about how the economy should be run, and who oppose globalization--thus, people who should be strongly in the Obama camp--astoundingly have chosen McCain as their choice for President) 'race' does seem to be detrimental to Barack Obama. But they shouldn't make or break the election, even if they are concentrated in 'swing states.' Just an opinion, of course.

    Complain about this comment

  • 31. At 4:35pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Here's an idea for the Democratic dynamic duo. The week after the Democratic convention, to divert the media from the Republicans and demonstrate their internationalism, Obama and Biden could go on around-the-world whirlwind tours. Biden could start by heading East to Europe pretending the US will try to patch up Europe's self inflicted bad relations with the US and telling the Iraqis they should be broken up into three countries while Obama could start by heading West damaging good relations with Japan, China, and India by showing he doesn't have a clue about them or their problems. They could meet passing each other in Tblisi where they could tell the Georgians that as far as the US is concerned they are on their own. "Doctor Livingston I presume." By the time they get back to the US, between the two of them they could incite a cut off of relations between every other country in the world and the US. Now that would be real isolationism.

    Complain about this comment

  • 32. At 4:36pm on 23 Aug 2008, NoRashDecisions wrote:

    "But something of the Obama appeal has been diminished by the choice - it is going to be very difficult to rail against Washington insiders with one at his right hand. There is also - if Biden performs well - the Dukakis Lloyd Bensen issue, which is, to put it delicately, Why is it this way round: why isn't the able, experienced, reassuring guy the one at the top of the ticket?"

    A point which you can be sure the Republicans will hammer home ad nausium for the rest of the campaign!! He'll probably be seen by many now as a complete and total hypocrit!! "Hope and change?" Yeah, that is until he gets a little spooked by a bit of Russian agression and Georgian stupidity on the world stage!! He could've used this crisis to demonstrate his "good judgement" that he always rails on about!! But no! The second there's a hint of turbulance he runs back to those "Washington insiders" like a moth to a flame!! He goes on vacation/holidy and doesn't utter a peep while McCain takes full advantige of the spotlight to show how he'd handle the "3 AM call!" No wonder they are in a dead heat or McCain is ahead!! What is Obama thinking!! I agree with others that Byden would've been better suited for secrity of state!! Now who will Obama pick for that role (should he win.) This could very well be Obama's undoing!!

    And you're totally right Justin, the American people wouldn't have cared so much about "foreign policy cradencials" had the Georgia/Russia conflict not erupted!! Damn Russia and Georgia!! They just damn near killed Obama's chances of entering the white house!! Is that what they want? Another Bush?

    Complain about this comment

  • 33. At 4:37pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    1 chancy well said.
    thanks McCain for trying to turn us back to the cold war all because of some (more ) bias views of american public led there by GW and the neo CONs.
    A real peace maker there.
    Sucasvilli may have gained power in the rose revolution but he has oppressed the s ossetians since and it occationally hits the press(more correctly the BBC or ITN, not of course the american press ).
    Not saying Russia is in the right just that universal condemnation and the rush to sign the missile defence deal are not appropriate ways of saying "I understand you concerns and am considering my response now thankyou"


    Complain about this comment

  • 34. At 4:42pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    6 neither would hillery have helped so give it up .

    Complain about this comment

  • 35. At 4:43pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    8 just right.

    Complain about this comment

  • 36. At 4:43pm on 23 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Bring it on!

    ;-)
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 37. At 4:48pm on 23 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Why Obama Made The Choice: Marc Ambinder opines:

    "
    I gather that what impressed Obama about Biden is that Biden gets things done. He's a man of action. He's not a bullshitter. I also get the sense that Biden, 65, is pretty well aware that, at age 73 in eight years, he's not going to be a viable presidential choice, and thus convinced Obama that because the vice presidency would be his terminal position, the famous Biden ego will take a subordinate role."


    'nuff said!
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 38. At 4:53pm on 23 Aug 2008, OldSouth wrote:

    Joe Biden?

    Really??

    There is a wisdom in our long election seasons, as tiresome as they are.

    Over the long pull, we are allowed to see whose ideas and judgment are credible, and whose are not.

    BHO (we dare not mention his complete name) is an empty suit, an ideological servant of the left-of-the-left in American politics. Joe Biden is a old-time pork-barrel Democrat pol, noted for his loquaciousness, and his habit of borrowing other people's words and claiming them as his own.

    He would have been tossed out of most colleges for his behaviour, but in the Democrats' world, he's an elder statesman.

    God Bless America! We get to see these guys acting like themselves, eventually, and they do not inspire confidence.

    If so many lives were not dependent upon the judgment of the US leadership, this would be comical.

    I don't hear anyone, anywhere laughing very much....

    Complain about this comment

  • 39. At 4:53pm on 23 Aug 2008, DutchNemo wrote:

    I think Joe Biden is a good choice. His experience on foreign policy compensates Obama's inexperience, he connects with middle-class voters and is a traditional attack-dog. John McCain needs to choose a moderate Republican to win over more Independents which excludes extremists like Mike Huckabee (neoconservative) and Mitt Romney (Mormon, neoconservative and Anti-European). I bet he will choose Charlie Crist or Tim Pawlenty.

    Complain about this comment

  • 40. At 4:56pm on 23 Aug 2008, rulebookconsulting wrote:

    I'm baffled by Obama's choice of Biden. Whilst Biden has foreign policy 'experience', it's experience of chairing a Senate committee, rather than making any real foreign policy decisions. And foreign policy is surely one thing that the President can't easily fob off onto someone else.

    Biden has no executive experience. He's a lifelong Washington insider. He brings no electoral advantage, Delaware being both tiny and safely Democratic (I don't believe for a moment that Biden can really help in Pennsylvania). Biden has no appeal to Republican voters, nor to disillusioned Hillary supporters. And he's a loose cannon with an unhealthy love of the sound of his own voice.

    A bad choice, overall, in my view. I'd have probably gone for Evan Bayh if I were in Obama's position.

    Complain about this comment

  • 41. At 4:56pm on 23 Aug 2008, NoRashDecisions wrote:

    shanbo5150#14: Yes I agree that Bydon shouldnt've plajorised that entire speech (if that is what he did) and that he should be punnished accordingly (if he hasn't already!!) But come on now!! Our respective countries's leaders have been effectively near plajorising each others speeches (if not lines) for decades! Remember when Brown took over No 10? He plajorised Bill Clinton's inauguration line in 93 with the line '"There is nothing wrong with Britain that can't be fixed by what is right with Britain." Swop "britain" with "America" and voi la! I'm not saying its right, but it happens pretty frequently. Hey! at least it can be pointed at to show that the world has more in common!

    But your right unfortionately. The Republicans will spare no expense when it comes to using this accusation as a weapon in the campaign!

    Complain about this comment

  • 42. At 4:57pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    "15. At 3:02pm on 23 Aug 2008, lovelokest wrote:
    I find it fascinating that you never say anything negative about McCain.

    Here are a few McCain fun facts:
    -First he was against the Bush tax cuts, but now he is for them.

    -He used to be pro-choice, now he thinks that Roe v Wade should be repealed.

    -He parodied the Beach Boy's song "Barbara Ann" with the lyrics "Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" and thought it was funny.

    -After his wife playfully twirled his hair and said that he was getting a little thin up there, he responded with "At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you ****."

    -He doesn't know how many houses he owns (at least 7!) and thinks that in order to be rich, you have to make at least $5 million a year.

    -He left his first wife, who waited for him while he was a POW and who was in a car crash during that time that require 23 operations and left her 5 inches shorter, for a beer heiress 17 years his junior.

    -He agrees with Bush's ecomonic plan, which has left us here in the US with a failing economy and a housing market that is imploding."


    Great letter,
    don't worry about the mainly erronious response, it is tripe. as always .

    Biden lost his first wife and Child in an auto accident and this erronious fellow thinks that re marrying 9 years latter is the same as dumping you wife because she got a scratch on her face.

    Complain about this comment

  • 43. At 4:58pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    chillo whats the president in georgia called?

    Complain about this comment

  • 44. At 4:58pm on 23 Aug 2008, goodman37 wrote:

    Sen.Biden is a great pick.
    I gave my feeling to Obama's staff.
    About who the V.P. must be I said Biden.
    I am very happy.

    Complain about this comment

  • 45. At 4:58pm on 23 Aug 2008, TimothyR444 wrote:

    "From what I've seen and heard of Biden, he seems like a top bloke. He has the second lowest income of any Senator because his only interest outside the Senate is teaching a law class on Saturday mornings in his home town. He maintains no ties to lobbyists. He comes across as a passionate and committed public servant. I think he'll be a very strong advocate for the ticket."

    Flacid:

    No one on the US cares about Biden's income.

    Obama is on the left; he needed a moderate to balance out his ticket. He doesn't need someone even further left than he is - and Biden is a standard American left-winger. He is typical of the 70s. That is definitely not what is needed.

    The idea that Biden is some sort of foreign policy expert is absurd.

    He is best know for his public gaffes and his weird remarks. He is a lightning rod, and will stir up controversy.

    Obama could not have made a worse choice.

    Complain about this comment

  • 46. At 4:59pm on 23 Aug 2008, TimothyR444 wrote:

    "Why is it this way round: why isn't the able, experienced, reassuring guy the one at the top of the ticket"

    What?

    Joe Biden?

    Nobody thinks of him as able and reassuring.

    Where is this idea coming from?

    Biden is entertaining and dramatic and talks far too much. He is not remotely reassuring.

    Complain about this comment

  • 47. At 5:01pm on 23 Aug 2008, buddha17 wrote:

    Biden wasn't the spectacular, fresh surprise that some might have been looking for. But, I suppose that having America's first potential black President still makes the ticket quite exciting!

    As far as the response over the Russia-Georgia conflict, I was quite disgusted myself with McCain's remarks. It's that kind of narrow-mindedness that brought the U.S. into the Iraq quagmire in the first place - with little knowledge of the political and societal dynamics that have brought our forces to our knees. Our foreign policy needs both experience (Biden) and the patience for objective analysis that Obama has. America can no longer afford rash decisions in its foreign policy.

    Complain about this comment

  • 48. At 5:02pm on 23 Aug 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    Aside from Biden's credentials in foreign policy,
    which would be available to Obama whether
    they were together on the ticket on not, I'm very
    surprised that Obama would pick him as VP.

    This campaign is all about swing states. What
    I find surprising is that Obama would concentrate
    on Northern swing states, such as Ohio and
    Pennsylvania, instead of a Southern strategy
    involving Virginia.

    The whole "Georgian Lobbyist" smear was
    a blunder by the Obama campaign, because
    it appeared to excuse Russian actions, and
    highlighted McCain in the situation.

    If the Russians become aggressive again
    before November, then this will benefit McCain,
    although if the Foreign Relations Committee
    becomes involved for some reason, then
    Biden could also benefit the Democrats somewhat.

    Complain about this comment

  • 49. At 5:04pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    it's not Obama that's the problem it is the American people

    Plop

    Complain about this comment

  • 50. At 5:06pm on 23 Aug 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    To add a short postscript:

    As others have noted, one of the problems with the
    ticket is that Biden has all of the strengths and
    appeal that Obama should have, i.e., experience
    in foreign affairs and appeal to middle-class voters.

    Obama needs to recast himself to regain momentum
    in this campaign, or else he will be on the defensive
    fighting these silly negative ads that the McCain
    people are putting out.

    Complain about this comment

  • 51. At 5:10pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    45 Timmmmay from south park

    some of america is pleased to learn Biden is not a big money grabbing fat hairy thief.
    That he cares enough to serve more than his pocket.

    Thank you Flacid may you gain turgor if you desire it.

    You ofend some because they see your name as a reply on their abilities.

    Complain about this comment

  • 52. At 5:12pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    45 timmmmaay ,from south park

    he could have made a worse choice.

    Hillary.

    plop plop

    Complain about this comment

  • 53. At 5:15pm on 23 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Up and Down Wall Street, not a creature was stirring; not even a house....

    "McCain owns perhaps as many as seven houses (he himself cheerfully admits to losing track of the exact number), and Obama lives in a fine dwelling that he shrewdly bought with the help of a friend. All of us simple and beset homeowners might do worse in these parlous times than adopting the approach of either candidate.

    Now, granted, seven houses may seem too many (such a pain to mow all those lawns), but consider the advantages. Most particularly, if, on the house he happens to be occupying at the moment he falls a little behind (say, six months or so) on the mortgage payments, he can always thumb his nose at his relentlessly bothersome lenders, toss the keys to them and traipse off to one of his other houses. We realize your average strapped homeowner may not be up to seven houses. But no problem: Four, or even three, would do quite nicely."
    ;-)
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 54. At 5:21pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    maybe Obama just went for the guy/gal he thought was best, ignoring polls and strategy to get on the ticket with some one he likes.
    WOW that's too easy.
    he must be a fool.
    but not as much of a fool as most of the responders here with their excuses.

    Justin.
    If america followed the BBC then you would have to be said to be bias and it is working.
    As it is your bias is not so easy to read.
    But you definately do not like barrack by the obsesive number of posts you have made that question only Obama.
    No matter who he is against or what he says.

    When He is right you print nothing, but if he makes what you concider a gaff, you get going.

    Start attacking Mc Cain equally.For once.
    there are as pointed out plenty of excuses to get at him, unless you're just a bitter journalist.


    Complain about this comment

  • 55. At 5:21pm on 23 Aug 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    The reason Biden is not at the top of the ticket is because he announced as a candidate at the beginning and the response was lukewarm, so he dropped out. Weren't you paying attention?

    The question is whether people will respond to him more favorably as candidate for VP, or whether it doesn't matter.

    Complain about this comment

  • 56. At 5:23pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Obama hasn't made one smart choice yet, why should this be any different? He blew it with Reverend Wrong, he blew it with his trip to Europe and his failure to visit the American war casualties while pandering to Europeans, he's a loser. Geraldine Ferraro was right all along, she said if he wasn't black or a woman, nobody in America would give him a second thought. What a shame this is the best America can do for its first serious black candidate. If he's elected and shows as little sound judgment in office as he's shown running for office, it will be a long time before there's another. He's almost certain to be a one termer if America is stupid enough to elect him.

    Complain about this comment

  • 57. At 5:27pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    jf 54

    "Justin....when He (Barack Obama) is right you print nothing..."

    That's unproven. If Obama ever does something right, I'd guess Justin will be only too happy to print it.

    Complain about this comment

  • 58. At 5:31pm on 23 Aug 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

    I've always respected Biden. He is outspoken and not reluctant to voice his disagreement with others. It is true that he has been in Washington a long time but at least he isn't 'sleeping' with PACs and lobbiers, while enriching himself at our expense.

    I think he brings both wisdom and experience to this ticket that Obama needs. I believe it was a good choice.

    Complain about this comment

  • 59. At 5:33pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    she said he was a woman?
    well that shows she's strange in the head.

    Complain about this comment

  • 60. At 5:35pm on 23 Aug 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

    #53Edinglehart

    McCain's 'geezer moment' over his houses will trail after him like a piece of bathroom tissue stuck to the bottom of a shoe!

    Many will find his remarks difficult to forget as they go to vote.

    Complain about this comment

  • 61. At 5:36pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    Hi aqua girl,
    guess a good thing could not continue for so long.

    Complain about this comment

  • 62. At 5:39pm on 23 Aug 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    Brits are a lot more interested in the Neil Kinnock incident than Americans. As they say, "imitation is the sincerest flattery." (Charles Caleb Colton)

    Complain about this comment

  • 63. At 5:41pm on 23 Aug 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #12. Ed Iglehart "Biden was and is among the minority who actually voted AGAINST the Iraq adventure." Au contraire! See this brief transcript from Meet The Press and some other interesting comments on the Biden choice. Other sites will confirm that Senator Biden voted FOR the resolution, supposedly the primary reason held against Mrs Clinton. Now Mr Obama has taken on board someone with exactly the same voting record as she in that matter, a decision which seems very two-faced. As I've stated before, no Hillary, no Victory. Very sad indeed.

    Complain about this comment

  • 64. At 5:47pm on 23 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    The Orifical Oracle has spoken,

    "Obama hasn't made one smart choice yet"
    So we can all go home. It is decided.

    It speaks again


    Complain about this comment

  • 65. At 5:49pm on 23 Aug 2008, Ysgarran wrote:

    I have been watching this media show ever since the primaries. I don't live in the US but I am fevering for Obama as if he were to become my President. Not because not so much because of US foreign policy but because of the American people.

    Education, Health Care and fair play; I believe that Obama will give the Americans the chance to get back the American Dream. If the majority of Americans can live a decent life I believe that they will become less gullible and finally end the threat of predatory capitalism and religious fanaticism.

    Complain about this comment

  • 66. At 5:53pm on 23 Aug 2008, threnodio wrote:

    As an outsider, I have a question which someone Stateside might answer.

    Is there any reason why a candidate should not say prior to election who he/she plans to appoint as Secretary of State? If Obama could say in advance that his SoS is going to be Holbrooke or Biden or whoever, would that not reassure voters who are concerned about his foreign policy credentials leaving him free to choose a VP who will pull in the most votes for other reasons?

    Complain about this comment

  • 67. At 5:53pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    yea mostly the only thing unproven is your wisdom.

    Complain about this comment

  • 68. At 5:55pm on 23 Aug 2008, SaintDominick wrote:

    Ref 60

    Indeed, how can a man who is ignorant of his own finances tackle the economic and fiscal problems that are bankrupting America?
    McCain is, without a doubt, a patriot, has an excellent centrist record in Congress, and has repeatedly sought bipartisan solutions; but the clear signs of senility that he has demonstrated throughout the primaries and his short fuse disqualify him from being fit to be President. Add his endoserment of Bush's foreign and domestic policies to that and the only conclusion we can reach is that four years of McCain in the White House will cause so much damage to our country that we may never be able to recover.

    Complain about this comment

  • 69. At 5:58pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    DC

    while it is true Biden did vote for the war.

    it is not true that he is any way Hillary.

    Sad is what you will become if you would throw away this opportunity because of bitterness brought on by Hillary.

    And Hillary supporters claim there is fervour for Obama.

    Crazies, Crazy lady crazies.



    Complain about this comment

  • 70. At 5:58pm on 23 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    David,
    Thanks for the transcript. My mistake, but he has changed his mind,

    "In hindsight, knowing everything you know now about the absence of weapons of mass destruction, was your vote a mistake?

    SEN. BIDEN: It was a mistake. It was a mistake to assume the president would use the authority we gave him properly."
    and made a feature of his strong opposition to the war and particularly the idiotic way in which it has been conducted. This is very clearly shown here.

    That's enough for me.

    Salaam, etc.
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 71. At 5:58pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Ed Uglyheart

    It is not decided. The voters haven't voted yet. But if you want to go home, wherever that is, it's OK with me, don't let me stop you.

    If Obama is elected, once the giddiness is over and he actually takes office and has to get down to the business of running the executive branch of the United States, I think he will prove the old addage correct, that you'd better be careful what you wish for, you never know when your wish may come true. Among other things, I think he would turn out to be Europe's worst nightmare.

    Complain about this comment

  • 72. At 6:01pm on 23 Aug 2008, SaintDominick wrote:

    Ref 63

    I would add to your comment that choosing someone who stated - unequivocally - during the primaries that Obama is unqualified to be President is a huge strategic blunder.
    The American public should prepare for a barrage of GOP political commercials showing both Sens. Biden and Clinton asserting that Obama is not qualified to be President. What will the average Joe conclude when they hear a VP candidate state that his boss is unqualified?
    If it wasn't because of McCain's senility and short fuse, this presidential campaign would not even be a contest.

    Complain about this comment

  • 73. At 6:03pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    65 now we see if they are brutal.

    Do they want someone who escalates the smallest problems or not.

    Sad is if DC and others are right, and Obama does loose , there will be more consequences to pay than any of them consider as they gaze out at the world looking for trouble.

    A lack of inward reflection can lead to internal problems.

    Complain about this comment

  • 74. At 6:04pm on 23 Aug 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    threnodio (#66), a candidate must be careful announcing cabinet choices during a campaign, because it is illegal to promise an office in exchange for political support. There have been precedents which came close. In 1976, Eugene McCarthy announced a list of potential cabinet appointees during the campaign, as an example of what his cabinet might look like, but he emphasized these were only possibilities, and that he had not even consulted with the named persons beforehand.

    Complain about this comment

  • 75. At 6:08pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    Dominick but if amnerica never recovers does that leave the world ready for the "end times."

    and that would be a good thing because I don't want to die and have to wait around to go to heaven. if this God doesn't act quickly I will go see what the devil has to offer.I mean it's one thing supporting someone who is going to help me directly but someone who cares about more than just me is obviously got their priorities wrong.I will not wait.It is my time.

    Hillary talking to St Peter

    Complain about this comment

  • 76. At 6:09pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    europes worst nightmare is america not finally realising how #@$#%## stupid they look.

    Complain about this comment

  • 77. At 6:12pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Dominik Vila

    Many successful Americans own more than one home. Solid real estate has proven a good investment over time despite the current glut in some areas. It's a good alternative to stocks and bonds. It's not surprising McCain might not know how many he owns. Many elected government officials put their assets in a blind trust so that there is no apparent conflict of interest between what they vote for in legislation and their own personal assets. Also, some or all of his assets may be co-mingled with his wife's. BTW, at the moment I personally own three but I've recently met people who own as many as ten.

    Complain about this comment

  • 78. At 6:15pm on 23 Aug 2008, chancythegardener wrote:

    Question for Ed :

    Who IS that smooth looking man who always appears at the end of McCain's videos ?

    Complain about this comment

  • 79. At 6:18pm on 23 Aug 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    Ed (#70), that's a great clip of Biden speaking in the Senate on Iraq. Biden is a speaker in the tradition of one of my first senators, Wayne Morse of Oregon, the "Tiger of the Senate."

    Complain about this comment

  • 80. At 6:19pm on 23 Aug 2008, NoRashDecisions wrote:

    Chill0 #3 rites "America plays such a big part on the world stage that it's becoming more difficult to separate
    a moral stance at home on social provision from a moral stance on poverty and murder in the wider world."

    Forgive me, but I don't see how this is so. How does the fact that our health care system is in shambles and large swaythes of the American population aren't covered affect a foreign national one iota? Of course our failiar to stop the Rawandan jenniside massively affected foreigners because we allowed, as you said, 800000 people to needlessly die!! But why do foreigners, who have universal health care, care so much about Americans lack there of?



    Complain about this comment

  • 81. At 6:21pm on 23 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Cogent criticism
    Actions have consequences.

    Salaam, etc.
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 82. At 6:23pm on 23 Aug 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

    #70

    Me too! Once again, thanks for the link.

    Complain about this comment

  • 83. At 6:24pm on 23 Aug 2008, oldnat wrote:

    #24 Timothy

    "Biden is hard-left" Remember this is an international forum, and the terms left and right don't mean the same thing everywhere.

    In the UK "hard-left" would mean someone who favours nationalisation of key industries and central planning of the economy.

    What do you mean by it?

    Complain about this comment

  • 84. At 6:31pm on 23 Aug 2008, DETSWEEN wrote:

    Well done Obama, your first major decision and you dropped the ball big time, you needed a vice president that could have appealed to middle America, instead you picked on a candidate portrays elitisim like you and isprobably even more liberal than you, there was a reason you lost in W Virginia and Pennsylvania and other similar states, to Clinton, middle American voters cannot make a connection to you, an Evan Byah or even Hillary Clinton could have given you some centerist appeal, instead you adopted the elitist attitudes of people like Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, and their little facist followers who seem do know better about everything than anybody else, no matter how many times they are proven wrong, there is a reason, why there has been only one successful Democratic President, and only two elected since 1968

    Complain about this comment

  • 85. At 6:36pm on 23 Aug 2008, Oreally7 wrote:

    The reason why the experienced veteran is only the running mate is because Biden is no good at generating excitement over himself. What's more is his idea's are good and even his political opponents like him but if you can't get people to listen when you talk it doesnt matter.

    I guess you dont want to pick a running mate who will overshadow the nominee but I hope Biden doesnt end up being invisible either.

    Complain about this comment

  • 86. At 6:41pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    jf #76

    Most Americans finally have realized how #@$#%## stupid Europe looks. Unlike me, they are just too polite to point it out to them. Why bother, they never listen and there is nothing they can do about it anyway.

    Complain about this comment

  • 87. At 6:44pm on 23 Aug 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    oldnat (#83), no officeholder in the Democratic Party is "hard-left" by European standards. When an American uses that epithet, it is merely an indication that the speaker (or writer) is a member of the rabid right, who is either unable or unwilling to articulate a substantive argument.

    Complain about this comment

  • 88. At 6:50pm on 23 Aug 2008, NoRashDecisions wrote:

    Threnodio #66: I suppose candidate could-as far as I know it isn't unconstitutional) But they run the risk of appearing too presumptive if they do, which is why I suspect they haven't so far, and probably won't do so in the future. And besides, if they did anounce their secritary of state choices, then people would say "Why don't you anounce the rest of your cabonit? You anounced your secritary of state." and it would be just a snow ball moment. They would be pressured on the one hand to anounce their entire cabonit in the hopes of reasuring voters that they would have a good team around them if elected, but on the other with each post anounced, they would seem a bit more presumptive. That is why its probably best in my view for them to not anounce their members of their cabonit. Could you tell me if someone in the UK has anounced their potencial cabonit when running for the premiership? To my knoledge no one has yet done so, but am I not aware of something? Thanks

    Garry A Hill: I agree with you on your Neal Kinnock comment, however most Brits would probably see that as lazyness (which it undoubtadly was!!) But it may have been flattory as well. I personally think it was a little of both.

    Complain about this comment

  • 89. At 6:52pm on 23 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    "Left" and "Right" in political discussion are only for those who find a Flat Earth too complex to comprehend.

    ;-)
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 90. At 6:52pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    "Get it here, Read all about it,Com'on mr. ya dant wantta beignorent, read all abbout it."

    The REAL REASON JUSTIN DOES NOT WANT OBAMA TO WIN.

    Did he take the bet?

    Is he bias over a snifty?

    "So who is going to win? In London the other day a senior figure from the Tony Blair inner circle bet me fifty pounds that Barack Obama will be the Democrats' choice, pipping Hillary Clinton at the post. I doubt it"

    Justin Webbs gotit wrong again.
    Like his Campaign to prove americans health care system is there, as a private system, with no need to help any one, only work for profit, don't turn up for health unless you are dying , can be justified with



    " but if you turn up bleeding at a major hospital in the US they will not turn you away and my sole point was that for large number of Britland folks (thanks to whoever it was who suggested that moniker) that is a surprise, and that, my friends, is ignorance."


    It is ignorance , because any one knows that if you are bleeding in a hospital, you are a potential biological hazard, and if you were infected with Aids or worse, you could in fact just be a terrorist hoping to infect as many as possible.
    So taking this into consideration it is true that it would be in the hospitals interest to stop the source of this biological infection and clean up the mess.

    Now once on the streets the infected person would be bleeding on the sidewalk which would lead the hospital to maybe worry(if they are smart) about some agency , probably federal, paying them a visit and charging them for releasing a biological hazard in to the city.

    So they stop the bleeding and send them out the door as soon as they can .
    Hope they get home before they die, if they have a home.


    Well it is the Mods that are Gods right?
    So no worries eh?

    Complain about this comment

  • 91. At 7:04pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    wow as many as Ten, you have been slumming it then. really , i'm serious.
    only ten?


    Starters houses are not rental properties, they earn money and are an investment etc. they are probably houses with only two or three staff in most of them. But not rental properties.

    You would have loved some of my past life, I thought it boring as you but then that's why you would have loved it.

    I could see why he was confused , I mean how many rooms do you have to have for it to be a house?
    Two or three rooms and the kitchen doesn't count, a shack really.



    Now onto sensible comments Wayne Morse.

    Now there Was a TRUE AMERICAN HERO.

    WAYNE MORSE.

    A Eugene Flavourite.

    Thanks Ed good to see him get a mention.

    Complain about this comment

  • 92. At 7:05pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Gary_A_Hill

    I don't suppose you've ever heard of National Review. There has always been lively debate in the US over political positions, some of it at a very high level. In the American context, far left means someone who would heavily tax profits by corporations and individuals for the purpose of social re-engineering. In other words, they'd try to make poor people rich by making rich people poor. That doctrine has proven time and again to be a failure here and all over the world and is largely discredited in the US. Here we want poor people to become rich by getting a good education and giving them opportunities to earn their own way in life without stealing the fruits of other peoples' success. In Europe, the doctrine of high taxation and social re-engineering seems to have a life of its own no matter how often or badly it leads to disaster. What do you call people who do not ever seem to learn from their mistakes? I call them.....Europeans.

    Complain about this comment

  • 93. At 7:07pm on 23 Aug 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    #81, Ed, good link.

    Unfortunately, the McCain campaign has
    "dumbed-down" the debate, with its negative
    attacks, so it may not matter how wise Biden is.

    It will be interesting to see whether people get
    tired of all this, and return to the notion that
    we need to get busy as a society fixing the
    problems which have accumulated over
    the last 30 years or so.

    Complain about this comment

  • 94. At 7:09pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    jf 90

    By contrast, if you turned up bleeding at a major hospital in Britain....they'd put you on a waiting list :-)

    Complain about this comment

  • 95. At 7:12pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    87 Gary Hill I would slap you for that.
    that was so good I spilt tea I was slipping,
    that sort of projectile "spilling "you get when you laugh when drinking.

    old nat ,I know about that left right thing.
    People ask me if I am left And I laugh.
    Then they say "oh good......" and I'm saying "no you don't get it. your left is just getting around to health care, even most of the right in the UK would not get rid of the NHS,"

    just in case. Tumble on the stock market or some thing only safety net out there really

    Complain about this comment

  • 96. At 7:19pm on 23 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:

    Great conversation, lots of opinions, no two alike. I have two comments.

    1.) I often see the word 'leftist' used negatively. Is the term 'rightist' any less negative? Leftism can be a stepping stone to Socialism, just as rightism can be a stepping stone to Fascism. So why, then, does 'leftist' seem so much dirtier than 'rightist?' See my second point.

    2.) Consider that America has, for the most part, seen 28 years of conservative government. (Clinton was a moderate, not a liberal. A liberal would never have signed NAFTA, or the welfare reform act, as Clinton did.) This is a longer than average time for the pendulum to 'not swing.' After this many years of conservatism, even a moderate looks like a 'leftist.'
    .................

    We simulate moderation by swinging from left to right, then back. In my opinion, we're overdue for a swing.

    Complain about this comment

  • 97. At 7:20pm on 23 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    For Magic

    ;-)
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 98. At 7:29pm on 23 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    NoRash,

    "Could you tell me if someone in the UK has anounced their potencial cabonit when running for the premiership?"
    In the UK system, the main opposition party has a "Shadow Cabinet", composed of their chosen spokespersons for each area of government function, and smaller parties also have designated spokespeople, etc.

    It isn't necessarily who will be in the actual Cabinet, should that party win the election and form the new government, because some members of the Shadow Cabinet may not get elected, although they are usually standing (running) for "safe" seats....

    Hope that helps.

    Salaam, etc.
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 99. At 7:29pm on 23 Aug 2008, threnodio wrote:

    #88 - NoRashDecisions

    The answer is that, in theory, you vote in the UK for a party rather than one candidate. In practice, we all know that the leader of the winning party will end up being prime minister. However, each major party has a cabinet (if in office) or a shadow cabinet (if in opposition. It does not follow that the opposition spokesperson for, say foreign affairs would necessarily be foreign secretary if that party won an election but there is always a politician either in post or 'shadowing' him for the opposition.

    Complain about this comment

  • 100. At 7:34pm on 23 Aug 2008, threnodio wrote:

    #96 - 1946kid

    I have noticed that 'liberal' or 'liberalism' has very different meaning either side of the pond. Over here, it is taken to be slightly left of centre and - more generally - broad minded, libertarian and tolerant. There is no sense of it being a dirty word as it seems to be Stateside.

    Complain about this comment

  • 101. At 7:40pm on 23 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    66, trenodio.

    As to running mates, they tend to be useless in terms of bringing in votes.

    As to proposing a Secretary of State, or suchlike, before the election, that would just be fodder for the other side. It would also involve voters in appointments, for which they have no say. It would be a mess.

    Complain about this comment

  • 102. At 7:46pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    threnodious

    Parliamentary democracy is an oxymoron. In a Parliamentary system, there is no separation of powers between the executive and legislative branches, no checks and balances between them. The Parliament is a rubber stamp for the executive. The opposition to the party in power or coalition has no say in what the government will do, no possible veto power. If the party in power doesn't vote with the PM on an important issue, then the government falls. That's why Italy has 49385043 governments every five years. In places like Mexico and Japan, one party stays in power for decades at a time. In the US, Congress will often vote against the President's policies even if the majority are members of his party. That is why he and they must compromise to get anything done at all. That is why Presidents and their aides are often jawboning congressmen and why there are so many deals between and among them.

    Instead of calling the party out of power in Parliament a shadow government, it should be called a ghost government because for all practical intents and purposes it has no political life at all.

    Complain about this comment

  • 103. At 7:47pm on 23 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    77, staphylococcus aureus.

    Wonderfully self-serving. Congratulations.

    Complain about this comment

  • 104. At 7:52pm on 23 Aug 2008, rjones2818 wrote:

    Obama, who's an imperialist, has just dashed the possibilities of using getting out of the Iraq War (Joe voted for the authorization of force).

    This is probably why Joe got picked. Plus, he's pretty much an uber hawk.

    So, the US is faced with two sides of the same neoliberal imperalist party in the form of McCain and Obama, unless it wakes up and chooses one of the alternatives (McKinney, Ralph, Barr or the socialists).

    Complain about this comment

  • 105. At 8:05pm on 23 Aug 2008, DutchNemo wrote:

    MarcusAureliusII,

    It seems to me you have just one hobby: insulting people who don't agree with you. Did you know 66% of all FDI in the States is European and 75% of all FDI in Europe is American. The Europeans generate millions of American jobs and the Americans generate millions of European jobs. Europe needs America and America needs Europe if you like it or not. Not that it will make any difference. You will probably not agree with me and continue pointing out how 'weak' Europe is.

    Complain about this comment

  • 106. At 8:05pm on 23 Aug 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #69 and #70 - For fully a year Mr Obama castigated Mrs Clinton for her affirmative vote and now Mr Biden is forgiven? Speaking out against the Iraq adventure, however forcefully, does not make up for the vote cast in the first place. After all, that he spoke out against it before becoming a US Senator was a primary - if not *the* primary - part of Mr Obama's appeal - now he embraces someone who thought quite differently. I don't see any "change" which appeared so appealing to young people during the primaries; it's business as usual.

    #98 Ed - Actually the Lib-Dems also have a Shadow Cabinet, not just the "main opposition party."

    #94.MarcusAureliusII "if you turned up bleeding at a major hospital in Britain....they'd put you on a waiting list :-)" Since by your own admittance you have never set foot in Britain (and never wish to) just how do you know that?

    Complain about this comment

  • 107. At 8:07pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    81 ED
    thank you

    Biden does seem like a fair pick to me.

    great speech there

    Complain about this comment

  • 108. At 8:11pm on 23 Aug 2008, misteralexeis wrote:

    Exactly how much influence does the VP choice have?

    But anyway, that's another issue.

    By and large, the Presidential nominee picks a very different running-mate. For example, in 1960 Kennedy, an aristocratic Senator from Massachusetts, picked Johnson, a down-to-earth Texan.

    Leaving the Democrats aside for a moment, who can McCain choose as a running mate?

    Well, seeing as he is an old man representing a state in the South, he may wish to select a younger, fresher candidate from the North.

    Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins of Maine scream out to me, especially as women.

    However, both are liberals, just like McCain. But does this really matter? After all, if you were a real redneck, you would support McCain over Obama, wouldn't you? Nevertheless, swaying voters may see the Republicans as having no spine.

    Don't really know.

    PS- whoever it was that said Obama was "hard left" should remember that he's actually right-wing. I, for example, consider myself a right-winger and staunch supporter of the Tory Party, yet I am an ardent Obama fan, because to my mind the only thing nastier than sending soldiers to die for oil is letting little babies whose parents can't afford it die.

    Plus, in the UK we are a bit more right-wing than the Continentals- and, I may add, more pro-US.

    Complain about this comment

  • 109. At 8:13pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    mable

    I managed to get all of the wne consolidated into one. It was a lot of work, a lot of driving back and forth during weather that was not too warm.

    I am sorry if you didn't take the opportunity to buy your own home, a vacation home, or an investment property during recent years when the opportunities were so great. Home ownership is most Americans' dream and what the government wants you to do including borrowing money to do it. That is why Federal Income tax allows you to fully deduct both real estate tax and mortgage interest on your primary residence from your income on an itemized return.

    Real estate overall has proven to be an excellent investment in America when chosen wisely. In fact buying a home is the single best investment most Americans will make in their lifetime with the possible exception of a college education. While the market may look bleak now, the long term could hardly be rosier. A recent extensive study by the US census bureau projects that US population will grow from about 304 million now to 439 million in 2050. All of those people will have to live somewhere. BTW, sometime in the 2030s, the white population will become a minority. It won't make one bit of difference, the culture will remain largely unaffected by the shift due to continued effectiveness of assimilation (by the second generation most Americans speak English exclusively even at home and by the third, few artifacts of their ancestry remain.) And English will remain the primary language of the country for the overwhelming majority of the population.

    Complain about this comment

  • 110. At 8:20pm on 23 Aug 2008, threnodio wrote:

    #102 - MarcusAureliusII

    I was simply giving a polite answer to a polite question. I ventured no opinion.

    I am really not qualified to comment on the finer points of US constitutional arrangements as clearly you are not on British constitutional affairs.

    Complain about this comment

  • 111. At 8:20pm on 23 Aug 2008, esibo wrote:

    Obama blew this one. He has to get elected before this Biden's foreign affairs experience becomes valuable. So what does Biden bring to the table. Delaware, Pennsylvania, Maryland, New Jersey. These are states Obama was going to win anyway, with or without Biden. If Kerry won these states four years ago, Obama was going to win them in his sleep. What then happens to the 'red states' crucial for him to get elected. This is where another candidate would have been better, like Senator Bayh.
    This issue of Biden being a foreign affairs expert is simply overblown. If he is, where was he when George Bush was using false intelligence to justify going to war. I remember the only Senator who spoke against the war was Senator Kennedy. Where was the 'expert' Biden
    Is he not the same Biden accused of plagiarism during his first Presidential run and look who got picked as VP, the consummate Washington insider.

    Complain about this comment

  • 112. At 8:33pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Canard

    A lot of Americans tell me British people have a "dry" sense of humor to which I always reply "yes, dry like the Sahara desert to the point where it has shriveled up, withered away, and died." Thanks for proving me right once again. Everything I read on this and other BBC blog sites convinces me I've been even more correct in my assessments than even I'd previously believed myself.

    jf, doesn't it reassure you knowing that besides being utterly incompetent to be President of the United States, Barack Obama is a hypocrite too? Kind of restores your faith in the predictability of the human condition.

    Complain about this comment

  • 113. At 8:34pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    , Congress will often vote against the President's policies even if the majority are members of his party.

    not recently.

    Complain about this comment

  • 114. At 8:36pm on 23 Aug 2008, MikeIL wrote:

    To elitist self-centered Euro-Liberal numbskulls:


    Western Europe (and the UK) has needed America many times more than America has needed Western Europe in the last 100 years. Your Euro-Liberalism has killed your society. You now rely on immigrants to compensate for your negative birthrate to keep your government nanny states going once you've retired. And you wonder why Liberal Socialism is a dirty word for us? Do you feel some need for the US join you in your comfy collective coffins?


    - SO IF YOU THINK WE DON'T CARE WHAT THE REST OF THE WORLD THINKS of AMERICA, YOU'RE RIGHT AND IT'S DAMNED LUCKY FOR YOU WE DON'T!

    By the way -- our homes, cars and our hearts are much larger than yours too.

    Complain about this comment

  • 115. At 8:38pm on 23 Aug 2008, oldnat wrote:

    #106 David

    If they knew who MA2 was, they might well put him on a waiting list (after loosening the tourniquet).

    Complain about this comment

  • 116. At 8:39pm on 23 Aug 2008, SONICBOOMER wrote:

    I do not recall foreign policy experience being the strong point of one G W Bush in 2000, (or quite frankly, since).

    Is it overblown, this factor?

    Or a polite way of saying that fear mongering, most of all about 'abroad', plays well?

    (Between the Berlin Wall falling and the Iraq invasion of Kuwait, some in the US even tried to put Japan in the vacant slot of 'enemy YOU must be afraid of!')

    Paranoia abhors a vacuum, but worse, they never see the real thing coming, as with Kuwait, as with Sept 11th.

    Complain about this comment

  • 117. At 8:39pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    DC biden did have the guts to say he was wrong.
    NOT something Hillary was ready to say .
    She thought too much of politics being about,The Game.
    It is not it is about peoples lives.
    She would never have got anywhere near McCain.
    I really cannot understand how you cannot give up on someone who uses lies and paranoia.

    Complain about this comment

  • 118. At 8:40pm on 23 Aug 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #109. MarcusAureliusII "Real estate overall has proven to be an excellent investment in America when chosen wisely." Any investment can be excellent when "chosen wisely" - perhaps the fall in house prices has not hit the three you own (or are paying for) whereas in this part of the world, properties have lost 25% of their value. In the stock market, investors would have sold out very quickly had the value of their shares so diminished. You appear to forget that not everyone in this country is able to get on the "property ladder" legitimately - and those who were offered "creative financing" by greedy bankers in order to do so are those who are most affected, with the trickle down being to ordinary householders who do not possess, or aspire to, multiple dwellings. One "home" should be sufficient for anybody, but possibly you do not have the heart which is necessary to make one.

    Complain about this comment

  • 119. At 8:44pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    threnodious

    They tell me that somewhere somehow there is a nebulous collection of documents or unwritten laws or something or other that taken together is a Constitution for the uck or England or something or other. What that is I will be the first to admit I don't know. But I hear there are experts who do. I presume there is somewhere a collective brain trust that ponders over these scrolls and tomes like rabbis ponder over the Kabbalah fathoming the depths to see if laws enacted by Parliament are constitutional or not. Nothing like the Supreme Court of the United States of course. Funny how nine justices spent the better parts of their careers for over two hundred years debating the meaning of a few short pages of American Constitutional law written in plain English to decide if American laws are constitutional. How do you suppose the EU expects to have a body judge the constitutionality of its laws against its 400 page monstrosity written in Sanskrit?

    Complain about this comment

  • 120. At 8:49pm on 23 Aug 2008, Govt_Mule wrote:

    I think this choice hurts Obama in the long run ... but so would have choosing Hillary.
    You can't run on a change platform and have a career politician as the choice for Vice President.

    I certainly don't like McCain either.
    He has a terrible temper and feels the presidency is somehow his birth-right.

    I wish we could select "none of the above" as an actual choice when voting. But if you vote you gotta pick one.

    Obama has a 4 million dollar house and McCain forgot how many he actually owned.

    These are not everyday people and will not look out for everyday people.

    Complain about this comment

  • 121. At 8:50pm on 23 Aug 2008, oldnat wrote:

    #114 MikeIl

    "our homes, cars and our hearts are much larger than yours too."

    and your bowels.

    Complain about this comment

  • 122. At 8:51pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    the waiting list joke by he's wrong, would be funny if it were not for the fact that ,that is the problem in the US.
    Earlier I took Justin to task for writing a bias blog based on his bit about brits having it wrong about american hospitals.
    Like I said then the brits have a better Idea of what is going on in the US than americans do about the UK.

    Yes Brits maybe woefully ignorant of health care costs here and hospitals treatment of people(without money). they Under estimate them.
    The Americans think in the UK you will be put on a waiting list.
    they underestimate the NHS.

    There is a difference.

    If everyone that should seek treatment in the US went to the hospitals they would be overwealmed.
    Emergency rooms in the US do not see as many people turn up on a friday night because many cannot afford to so they let the leg get gammy and limp for life.
    loose the ability to use their finger because they cannot afford to have it fixed.
    UK hospitals as was mentioned do have a lot of people coming in, and the burn on your hand that you could not be bothered with for the first 6 hours after the accident will get no worse, but the guy in the car crash that is being rushed in will be helped..
    triage is not the same as not being seen to. or being bankrupted by being beaten by thugs.




    Complain about this comment

  • 123. At 8:52pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    jf 113, do I recall incorrectly that Congress voted down President Bush's give-away-the-store immigration bill despite strong support from both the left and right of both parties? It was one of McCain's chief liabilities among consrvatives, the Kennedy McCain bill. This was due to an overwhelming disgust among the vast majority of Americans who do not think there should be any reward for breaking our laws. Congressmen had little choice regardless of their own personal feelings....if they wanted to get re-elected. Not much work most of the time for out of office politicians...except as occasional political pundits on TV.

    Complain about this comment

  • 124. At 8:52pm on 23 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:

    114 is just what I was talking about in 96.

    This is what too much conservatism has done to some of us.

    Complain about this comment

  • 125. At 8:53pm on 23 Aug 2008, SaintDominick wrote:

    Well, looks like the young man who inspired so many of us four years ago when he was the keynote speaker at the 04 Democratic convention is back again. Freudian slip notwithstanding, Obama delivered a wonderful speech in Springfield, and so did Biden. The populist theme they embraced was long overdue, and their obvious effort to refocus attention to the failed policies of the Bush Administration, so enthusiastically endorsed by John McCain, was badly needed.

    Complain about this comment

  • 126. At 8:54pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    112 couldn't stay away eh?
    the magnetic draw of europe and it's people.
    you love yes love us.
    you flippy flopper you.How sweet.

    Pbs tell you to go elsewhere?

    Complain about this comment

  • 127. At 8:55pm on 23 Aug 2008, threnodio wrote:

    114 - MikeIL

    "By the way -- our homes, cars and our hearts are much larger than yours too"

    Not to mention your mouth and your head!

    Complain about this comment

  • 128. At 8:55pm on 23 Aug 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    #104, rjones, since we are apparently getting out
    of Iraq, and on the verge of signing an agreement
    with the Iraqi government formalizing our withdrawal,
    the Iraq war is ceasing to be a campaign issue.

    So, Biden doesn't hamper Obama in this regard.

    DutchNemo, don't bother locking horns with MAII;
    he's baiting you for his own entertainment.

    Complain about this comment

  • 129. At 9:01pm on 23 Aug 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    There's a fine example in #114 of what I mean by the "rabid right." Fortunately, these boors are not representative of the American people, who are for the most part civilized.

    Complain about this comment

  • 130. At 9:01pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:


    "Western Europe (and the UK) has needed America many times more than America has needed Western Europe in the last 100 years. Your Euro-Liberalism has killed your society. You now rely on immigrants to compensate for your negative birthrate to keep your government nanny states going once you've retired. And you wonder why Liberal Socialism is a dirty word for us? Do you feel some need for the US join you in your comfy collective coffins? "

    Mike ill

    this is why americans are so anti abortion really.
    they worry (like the gov of israel) that they will be out bred .
    paranoid,
    very weird

    strange guy

    Complain about this comment

  • 131. At 9:01pm on 23 Aug 2008, EnemyofSteveMcClaren wrote:

    I'm sure that Obama looked at every feasible candidate and weighed up their faults and weaknesses, and so I'm sure that Obama's sure that he made the right choice. He has impressively avoided any political gaffs or miscalculations and here once more, he has astutely chosen someone which counters his main critics and probably his weakest area in many voters eyes. This is just one more crucial step to his ultimate and inevitable goal. The Oval Office.

    Complain about this comment

  • 132. At 9:03pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    MikeIL #114

    Have no fear, the Europeans will likely soon start paying for the crimes they committed against America during the Bush administration. Funny how betrayal is a double edged sword. Europeans sense the trouble looming before them. Gordo, Sarko, and Angel Eyes went to Washington DC to grovel at the lame duck President's feet early in 2007, they will do the same early in 2009 after the next President takes office. It won't do them any good. As tensions between Russia and NATO increase, Russia will play its energy card selling its fossil fuels elsewhere, possibly to India and China. Europe depends on Russia for about half its gas and a third of its oil (or visa versa.) All of the tankers in the world will not be able to make up for the loss. The shortfall will hopefully be great enough to not only cover the unfullfilled fossil fuel cutbacks Europe promised under Kyoto but the cutbacks they demanded of America as well. Could anyone imagine an American politician including Obama caring at this point if Europe shuts down and freezes for lack of fossil fuel?

    Complain about this comment

  • 133. At 9:04pm on 23 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    off to bang metal, if anyone wants to send MA i'll destroy the evidence.

    Complain about this comment

  • 134. At 9:06pm on 23 Aug 2008, threnodio wrote:

    #119 - MarcusAureliusII

    If they have been studying it for 200 years and they still haven't worked it out either they are irredeemably stupid or the document is.

    Complain about this comment

  • 135. At 9:10pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    oldgnat, if I could tie the tourniquet tight enough, I might take my chances on the next flight out to the US rather than risk a fatal infection in the filth of a British hospital. I'd even risk a flight on an MD82. I think my odds of surviving would be better.

    Complain about this comment

  • 136. At 9:17pm on 23 Aug 2008, oldnat wrote:

    #119 MA2

    Hey, you got something right!

    Britland (appropriate in this case) is one of only 4 countries in the world run on the basis of "Parliamentary Sovereignty" whereby sovereignty lies with the legislature and not the people. without checks and balances it can do anything it likes. The other 3 are New Zealand, Finland, and your pals in Israel.

    Fortunately New Zealand and Finland are civilized countries who don't run roughshod over their people just because they can.

    Ed has told you often enough the results of Israel's Parliament having unlimited power.

    Complain about this comment

  • 137. At 9:17pm on 23 Aug 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    I have a theory that MikeIL and MAII are really
    the same person. Anyone else care to venture
    a guess?

    Complain about this comment

  • 138. At 9:19pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    jf "...Brits have a better idea of what's going on in the US than Americans do in the UK."

    That's because Americans don't care what's going on in the UK. It has no effect on them. The UK is just one more of about 200 unimportant foreign countries to Americans. The destiny of America is strictly in its own hands, no one elses.

    Complain about this comment

  • 139. At 9:21pm on 23 Aug 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    Govt_mule (#120), there is a precedent for an "outsider" candidate for president running against the Washington establishment choosing a Washington "insider" as his running mate: Reagan-Bush in 1980.

    Complain about this comment

  • 140. At 9:25pm on 23 Aug 2008, oldnat wrote:

    #137 gunsand religion

    "I have a theory that MikeIL and MAII are really
    the same person"

    So that was the result of that secret CIA human/simian cloning experiment!

    Complain about this comment

  • 141. At 9:28pm on 23 Aug 2008, threnodio wrote:

    #137 - gunsandreligion

    I hope you are right. The thought that there might be two of them is scary.

    Complain about this comment

  • 142. At 9:29pm on 23 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:

    125: Agreed. I watched the presentation, too. And populist is the word. It doesn't get much more working-class than Biden's speech.

    I especially appreciated the remark he made about corporations getting rich by sending jobs out of the US. It's a big issue that is under the public radar. I've been waiting quite a while for it to come up. I hope if he gets in, he runs with this ball.

    Complain about this comment

  • 143. At 9:30pm on 23 Aug 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    #140, oldnat, wasn't that a Chinese experiment
    back in the 1980's?

    I didn't know that the CIA got involved.

    Complain about this comment

  • 144. At 9:30pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    oldgnat,

    I know the result of the actoins of Israel's Parliament. Their nation survived four genocidal wars against them and two terrorist wars called intifadas against them too. They are the poster child in America for standing up to terrorists. We love them for it and support them in whatever it takes for them to continue to survive and prosper. Not the same in our attitude towards Europe though. We don't care what happens to them.

    therenodious

    You just keep telling yourself that the US Supreme Court and the Constitution of the United States are stupid. I understand from BBC's own reporters that Gordo doesn't even have to put the Lisbon treaty to his rubber stamp parliament if he doesn't want to, he can approve it by fiat all by himself. That's what Britain calls "democracy."

    It's not that Americans have bigger brains than Europeans, it's just that they use them more...except for the ones who leave in disgust for America :-) Right jacksforge?

    Complain about this comment

  • 145. At 9:31pm on 23 Aug 2008, SaintDominick wrote:

    Ref 77

    Marcus Aurelius

    I understand the need to depict McCain's inability to answer a simple question as class warfare and an example of attempts to destroy the American dream, but the reality is that his gaffe demonstrates a level of unawareness of his own finances that coupled with his admission of ignorance on economics matters should be troubling for everyone.
    Real estate is, arguably, a safer long term investment than real estate, and as an American I don't fault anyone for having 7 or 70 houses, what worries me is the probability of a man who is showing clear signs of senility ending up in the Oval Office. The likelihood of disaster is even worse when you consider his temper, his unwavering endorsement of George W. Bush's policies, and his admission that he is unfamiliar with the most elementary technologies we use in the 21st century.
    Obama may not have all the right answers, but the vision and hope that emanate from his speeches, and the soundness of his foreign and domestic proposals, are miles apart from the dismal policies that have transformed our country into the largest debtor nation in the world, the deregulation that facilitated the collapse of real estate, the borrow and spend policies that have put our banking system and treasury in jeopardy, and the erosion of civil liberties that have taken place in the name of national security.
    A society that abandons its core values in exchange for an elusive sense of safety can only be categorized as a society that is in decline and one that has surrendered its sovereignty and principles to its enemies.
    Hopefully, Obama/Biden will be able to change course before it is too late, not so much for old people like me, but for my children and grandchildren.

    Complain about this comment

  • 146. At 9:33pm on 23 Aug 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    #141, did you ever see the movie "Twins", with
    Danny De Vito and Arnold Schwarzenegger?

    That might be what we're dealing with here.

    Complain about this comment

  • 147. At 9:35pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    oldgnat, I love it when all you have left to say is to insult me. It's proof that even you know you've lost the argument.

    Complain about this comment

  • 148. At 9:38pm on 23 Aug 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    #125, #142, I agree with both of you that focusing
    the debate back on domestic issues is the way to
    go for Obama/Biden. McCain is extraordinarily
    weak in this area, and the economy will surely
    be worse in a few months, not better.

    Complain about this comment

  • 149. At 9:39pm on 23 Aug 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #135 MarcusAureliusII - don't you ever have anything positive or pleasant to say? The "filth" (??) of a British hospital could be better than no hospital at all; just today here in Los Angeles it was announced that yet another would close - in the very high rent district of Century City, where property prices would make any of your several homes seem like a serf's cottage. If the great and the good cannot maintain a hospital, what hope is there for those of more ordinary means?

    Ref #112 - I had recognised the juvenile attempt at humour. You flatter yourself in your self-assessment - as far as I can determine any sense of humour you possess is so dry as to be non-existent - along with any redeeming feature as a human being. I shudder to think what it must be like to be one of your neighbours, living next to someone so pompous, vain and self-important. By comparison, the "ugly American" abroad is a charmer.

    Complain about this comment

  • 150. At 9:42pm on 23 Aug 2008, oldnat wrote:

    #147 MA2
    Insult you? I said you got something right!

    Complain about this comment

  • 151. At 9:46pm on 23 Aug 2008, threnodio wrote:

    #146 - gunsandreligion

    Yes - loved the guy who now runs California but who was the big guy with the Austrian accent?

    Complain about this comment

  • 152. At 9:47pm on 23 Aug 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    Well, I'm off to get some California sunshine today.

    Have fun, all.

    Complain about this comment

  • 153. At 9:47pm on 23 Aug 2008, threnodio wrote:

    #150 - oldnat

    That is the insult.

    Complain about this comment

  • 154. At 9:52pm on 23 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:

    McCain has long been seen as an odd duck. His claim to fame is that he can't get along with his own party. Now, he's shoveling sand against the tide trying to reverse this. I've often thought that if the two parties could only swap McCain for Lieberman, an even trade, Feng Shui would be served.
    ........................
    Biden is a good choice.

    *He mitigates the 'not enough experience' issue
    *He mitigates the 'foreign policy' issue
    *He mitigates the 'working class votes' issue
    Last but not least,
    *He mitigates the race issue, to the extent that it can be done in the US

    Complain about this comment

  • 155. At 9:58pm on 23 Aug 2008, oldnat wrote:

    #1946kid

    "McCain has long been seen as an odd duck"

    Does that mean Cheney gets to shoot him?

    Complain about this comment

  • 156. At 9:59pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    DV

    Reread my posting #77 again. You obviously didn't understand it. A blind trust is deliberately intended to make you unaware of your own finances so that you can't act in conflict of interest in your professional duties voting for or against legislation that affects them.

    "Real Estate is, arguably, a safer long term investment than real estate."

    That is exactly what you just said in #145. And you are concerned about McCain's mental state of awareness? It seems to me you just demonstrated that you are in no position to judge. In last week's interview in California, McCain seemed to me to be sharp as a tack. He answered all of the questions quickly, thoughtfully, and clearly. Completely coherent. Obama seemed to be stargazing at times, pondering deep in thought when he should have had ready answers.

    The US has been the world's largest debtor nation for a very long time...and the wealthiest. It also seems to me it is you who have ignorance of economics. Your thinking was one factor that led to the great depression and has been accepted as invalid for almost 80 years. How do you think America paid for World War II, Vietnam, and the cold war? Deficit financing. Read Galbraith...who by the way had the good sense to emigrate from Canada to the US.

    Biden is an asset to Obama. Biden the veteran politician has knowledge but no judgement. Obama the tyro has neither. Half a half baked loaf is better than none at all.

    Complain about this comment

  • 157. At 9:59pm on 23 Aug 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

    I disagree that for second and third generation immigrant offspring, only English will be spoken and the culture of their parents and grandparents will be mostly forgotten. This is certainly not true in my family nor in many others I know.

    I am hoping our society will become more blended as people, hopefully, release fear and prejudice against the 'other.' I feel people will always take some pride and have some appreciation for the language and culture that is part of their heritage.

    Complain about this comment

  • 158. At 10:05pm on 23 Aug 2008, fiscalconservative wrote:

    Biden is a ridiculous choice, if Obama wants to win. Obama essentially locks up the populist New England states, and neglects states such as Indiana (Bayh) that he needs to tilt his way. He proves today that he's out-of-touch with reality, and infatuated with the admiration of the old New England Democrat elite.

    Oh, and Biden is known for absurd gaffes the likes of which we haven't seen since Gore or Quayle:

    “In Delaware, the largest growth in population is Indian Americans, moving from India. You cannot go to a 7/11 or a Dunkin Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I’m not joking.” - Joe Biden, July 2006

    If McCain is persuasive enough to land Rice, this won't even be a contest by November.

    Complain about this comment

  • 159. At 10:07pm on 23 Aug 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#145Dominickvilla

    So well expressed. I agree and have voiced more than once my concerns about McCain's age. You have also distilled quite succinctly many of my own concerns. I want something better for my children, grands and great grandchildren.

    Here's to a better America and peace in our world!

    Complain about this comment

  • 160. At 10:08pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Canard

    If the American taxpayer wasn't forced to pay for the medical bills for every
    illegal alien who come to the US to pick lettuce, if we didn't send 15 billion already to fight AIDS in Africa and just pledged another 45 billion, if we didn't have to pay for an army in Europe to defend it from Russia, the wealthy of Los Angeles could afford to keep a hospital open close by them. BUT, as this is near Hollywood and Beverly Hills where limousine liberals are ready to give our money away to the entire world and take in every illiterate in Latin America that makes it alive across the Rio Grande, if there had to be a hospital closing anyplace, I could hardly have picked a better spot myself. Make the tourniquet tighter, maybe they can make it to LAX and catch the next flight out to Heathrow. No waiting lists then?

    Complain about this comment

  • 161. At 10:13pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    1946 and still a kid
    ........................
    "Biden is a good choice.

    *He mitigates the 'not enough experience' issue
    *He mitigates the 'foreign policy' issue
    *He mitigates the 'working class votes' issue
    Last but not least,
    *He mitigates the race issue, to the extent that it can be done in the US"

    So all we have to do is hope if Obama gets elected, he is somehow removed from office and Biden becomes president. Only one problem with that though, when he ran for President, even his own party soundly rejected him.

    Complain about this comment

  • 162. At 10:13pm on 23 Aug 2008, JonPhoenixSakura wrote:

    A lot of Americans, as well as a lot of people not from this country, don't realize one thing about the Vice-Presidential pick ~ IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!!!! If you actually look at the political science data, a person's VP pick does not have an effect on who wins the popular vote, and hasn't since 1860 when our two parties became the two parties (for more info, check out Allan Lichtman's book Keys to the White House).

    This scrutiny of the VP is related to a much larger issue where presidential races are covered like horse races, with each moment of the campaign being scrutinized for substance, even when there isn't any.

    And often times, there really isn't!! Americans in the presidential race vote retrospectively ~ on the basis of how well the previous four years have been. It's not just the economy, foreign policy, or major scandals ~ it's a little of everything. That is what the political science data tells us. If you want to say that the minutia affect who will win, I say this ~ prove it.

    But that's the thing ~ if you focus on the horse-race of presidential politics, you realize that there are so many millions of factors that might affect current poll numbers that it's impossible to know which factors actually overall matter. And again, if you focus on the trees of the political campaign, you lose sight of the forest.

    That being said, based on what is known about voting patters, Obama's pick of Biden as VP won't change whether he in the end wins the popular vote or not. What will matter is that should Obama win (and barring something hugely unforseen, like the mortgage crisis evaporating or his death, he will) and should Obama die, Biden will become president. And that's the point that should be emphasized here because that's the only thing that matters in the VP pick ~ will she or he be a decent leader if the president dies.

    Will Biden be a decent leader? Well, in certain ways probably, but progressive Obama supporters should realize that Biden is far more conservative than Obama. And should Obama die, they will probably have voted into office a much more conservative set of policies than they realized.

    Complain about this comment

  • 163. At 10:30pm on 23 Aug 2008, caldn101 wrote:

    To 114 and all the other world haters,

    Your comments are exactly what is wrong with the world, and quite frankly, it's no wonder why the United States irks almost every country on the planet. Except Georgia and Poland perhaps. You can gloat about big cars or whatever all you want but the fact is that if the United States wants to remain the world's leader it has to own up to the responsibilities that come along with that role. If the United States can't or won't, the EU, Japan, and BRIC would be happy to take the role.

    Looking inward and arrogantly ignoring the rest of the world may win you some elections or even seem reassuring, but it's a sure way to get left behind. Read a history book sometime.

    Complain about this comment

  • 164. At 10:33pm on 23 Aug 2008, paulcanning wrote:

    Webb is the Fournier of the BBC
    http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_08/014385.php

    Complain about this comment

  • 165. At 10:36pm on 23 Aug 2008, pdlodge wrote:

    This is the most left-wing ticket America has ever had. I'm interested to see if they get elected.

    Complain about this comment

  • 166. At 10:38pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    aquagal

    I didn't make this stuff up. You can search NPR's website for the interview with the demogropher who reported the findings. Here are some more projections. In 2050, there will be about 203 million caucasian Americans, about the same number as now. They will be skewed towards an aging population distribution. Latinos will constitute 1/3 of the US population. Asian Americans and African Americans will comprise 60% more than their numbers are today.

    Complain about this comment

  • 167. At 10:40pm on 23 Aug 2008, SaintDominick wrote:

    Ref 145

    Yes, I screwed up my reference to real estate being a safer long term investment than the stock market; but it is precisely because I know the effects of age that I am so disturbed about electing a senior citizen to a position that requires alertness, stamina and a cool temper.

    I find most of your commentaries so radical that sometimes I wonder if you are just a tool that Justin uses to generate interest. It is obvious to me that either you don't see your own shortcomings or, if you do, you intentionally abuse the privilege of being allowed to participate in a foreign forum and use inflamatory and derogatory language to offend anyone who disagrees with your points of view. Try a litle decorum when voicing your opinions, who knows, you may actually find people who agree with some of your opinions, regardless of how radical they may be...scary thought...

    Complain about this comment

  • 168. At 10:40pm on 23 Aug 2008, SueHenDan wrote:

    Hillary Clinton was the Republican's greatest fear for the election. However Obama's charismatic campaign removed her from the equation. As a result Obama has, rather unexpectedly, been the Republicans greatest ally in the presidential campaign. What a missed opportunity for America. And what a shot in the foot for the Democrats.

    Complain about this comment

  • 169. At 10:43pm on 23 Aug 2008, bethpa wrote:

    #49 Jacksforge
    YES

    and I also agree with Ed...

    Biden is a good choice.

    I like him precisely because Biden sometimes says too much : ) If he were posting here I think he would sometimes be censored too
    Biden is an honest man who has made some few mistakes..but generally is sincere and clearly explains his views.

    Biden will go after McCain ..while Obama will stay looking messianic.

    Complain about this comment

  • 170. At 10:46pm on 23 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    JonPhoenixSakura

    Everyone remotely in contention is more conservative than Obama. Obama had the most liberal voting record in the Senate. Even more liberal than Fat Noblesse Oblige Teddy.

    Complain about this comment

  • 171. At 11:10pm on 23 Aug 2008, Govt_Mule wrote:

    I just seen a preview of the McCain ad that will be starting Monday regarding the Obama choice of Biden.

    He shows a snippet from the debate where Biden says about Obama "I think he is to in-experienced to lead. He may be ready someday, but he is not now"

    Then a snippet is shown from a talk-show where Biden states that "He would be honored to be McCain's running mate"

    This is going to hurt Obama badly.

    Complain about this comment

  • 172. At 11:11pm on 23 Aug 2008, fiscalconservative wrote:

    @# 145-Dominickvilla and #159 aquarizonagal

    Concerns about McCain's age?

    First, your Dem party is a party controlled by the elderly...Byrd, Ted Kennedy, Carter, Clinton...

    Second, The best president of our lifetime was also the oldest:)

    Complain about this comment

  • 173. At 11:22pm on 23 Aug 2008, SunshinePlus wrote:

    The most important fact in this history making election is that Washington is broken. The administration and the Congress have malfunctioned badly for at least eight years and do not listen to the voters.. Hence, our foreign policy is in shreds and all of our resources that should be spent for domestic needs is tossed at a failed illegal immoral Iraq war and occupation.
    We. as a nation, are bankrupt, monetarily and morally. Obama has what it takes to lead us back in the right direction because he is very intelligent and a born leader. It will be a new road and no old patterns will apply or we will fail.
    I trust the leadership Obama/Biden will provide, but have no confidence in a McCain ticket.

    Complain about this comment

  • 174. At 11:23pm on 23 Aug 2008, bethpa wrote:

    A comment about the term liberal in the US...

    There is some hate speech directed at liberals in the US which involves death threats and one of the people who has been saying hate speech towards liberals on the radio is Ronald Reagan's son. This is not being reported on the major media networks but the right wing conservatives are listening to hate speech .

    If I put those hate filled quotes on this blog I would be censored...but if you would like to read a listing of them go to

    http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/95112/the_tragic_arkansas_shooting_and_conservative_hate_speech/

    and read the section after


    "All I know is no prominent liberal spokespersons have made the following statements:"

    Complain about this comment

  • 175. At 11:24pm on 23 Aug 2008, Govt_Mule wrote:

    # 114

    That kind of rhetoric never improves any situation.

    You don't help out a friend and then hang it over their heads until the end of time.
    This makes it hard for those of us that are proud of what we did to remain proud.

    Complain about this comment

  • 176. At 11:27pm on 23 Aug 2008, justcorbly wrote:

    #87 said:

    "oldnat (#83), no officeholder in the Democratic Party is "hard-left" by European standards. When an American uses that epithet, it is merely an indication that the speaker (or writer) is a member of the rabid right..."


    So true. This place is full of crazed righties who still go on about how Democrats are socialists. That must come as a surprise to socialists.

    The right, and the GOP, in this country are either one of two kinds of people: Pols who sucker voters with lies, fear and hate, or voters who are suckered by those pols.

    BTW, Susan Eisenhower -- Ike's granddaughter -- publicly left the GOP this week, registering as an independent. She said the party had abandoned its principles.



    Complain about this comment

  • 177. At 00:05am on 24 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    The Anal Oracle,

    "all you have left to say is to insult me."
    O wad some Powr...

    Complain about this comment

  • 178. At 00:11am on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    bethpa we will get in trouble for those sort of thoughts.

    Complain about this comment

  • 179. At 00:11am on 24 Aug 2008, Darrell wrote:

    Biden is a good choice for Obama. He covers bases where there is a perceived gap.

    Roll on November 4th for Obama to be elected and 20th January for the US to start the post Bush recovery.

    Complain about this comment

  • 180. At 00:21am on 24 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Left right, left right, left right,....the one-dimensional marching beat for those of severely limited intelligence....Marching off the cliff

    But what is a cliff in a one-dimensional world?

    Eat, drink, be merry
    ed


    Complain about this comment

  • 181. At 00:27am on 24 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Vila Vanilla;

    "Yes, I screwed up my reference to real estate being a safer long term investment than the stock market; but it is precisely because I know the effects of age that I am so disturbed about electing a senior citizen to a position that requires alertness, stamina and a cool temper."

    Well since you experience it first hand, maybe you should consider that you are too old to vote. You say age brings clouded judgement at least for you. If I thought McCain was a doddering old fool many others would too and would not support him. Apparantly about at least half those polled don't agree with you. In some cases age brings wisdom. In yours, by your own account it has reached the point of impairment. But in Obama's case there is no doubt that the inexperience of this youthful man is a far more dangerous flaw than McCain's age. If McCain becomes impaired, he will be removed from office.

    "I find most of your commentaries so radical that sometimes I wonder if you are just a tool that Justin uses to generate interest."

    Rest assured, the owners and moderators of this blog site do not know me personally and I don't know them. I show them no favoritism when they are wrong which is often.

    "It is obvious to me that either you don't see your own shortcomings.."

    If I had any, I'd see them and correct them. It is you who are flawed in not seeing that I don't have any.

    "you intentionally abuse the privilege of being allowed to participate in a foreign forum and use inflamatory and derogatory language to offend anyone who disagrees with your points of view. "

    That is solely for the moderators to decide. On this thread, not one of my comments was deleted by them. I stayed within the rules. In most threads, people on all sides break the rules and their postings are not published or are removed.

    "Try a litle decorum when voicing your opinions"

    I did and was abused by others. Being from the Bronx, the toughest place on earth, I can take it and I can dish it out. Maybe I should run for President. Push all these wussies out of the way.

    "...who knows, you may actually find people who agree with some of your opinions, regardless of how radical they may be...scary thought... "

    I don't care if they do or they don't. But if an idea fosters agreement or disagreement among some because of the manner in which it is presented, that doesn't say much for the value of their opinion. Where I come from, the validity of arguments stands or falls on their own strength alone. Too bad for you if it isn't the same where you come from.

    SunshinePlus

    For someone with a moniker of sunshine, you sure spread a lot of doom and gloom. Take a tip from the sunny Carribean; Don't Worry, Be Happy. Just be grateful you don't live in the uck where the drunks are always out in force vomiting in the streets we were told here, you have to go on a waiting list to get into a filthy hospital, and things like this happen;

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2008/08/bridging_the_generation_gap.html

    Complain about this comment

  • 182. At 00:28am on 24 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:

    173 - Right on
    174 - Right on

    The comments I read here amaze me.

    Most of us in the US do not want to ' Dominate the world.'

    Sadly, most of us are not readers.

    Complain about this comment

  • 183. At 00:44am on 24 Aug 2008, campantman wrote:

    Essentially, Obama is caught between the proverbial rock and a hard place on this one. Justin states that "something of the Obama appeal has been diminished by the choice - it is going to be very difficult to rail against Washington insiders with one at his right hand", but what really was he to do? If he chose someone really different, someone 'cool' and modern, he basically condemns himself to having little or no chance in the election because the American public will perceive that the ticket is unbalanced and lacking in experience and general political 'clout'. So, he's done the logical thing and picked someone who is, to quote Justin, a 'Washington insider'; someone that makes up for Obama's perceived and confessed weaknesses and shortcomings and therefore gives Obama some kind of chance of winning in November. Who else was he really going to opt for? Chris Rock?! Jack Nicholson?! Hillary?!

    Complain about this comment

  • 184. At 00:46am on 24 Aug 2008, campantman wrote:

    Essentially Obama knows that his message of 'change' needs to be tempered against political realism. He's not a fool.

    Complain about this comment

  • 185. At 00:47am on 24 Aug 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#172Fiscalconservative

    If you are speaking of Regan, I do not agree.
    He was not our best president, just a good actor and a good politician. He was probably already suffering the effects of Alzheimer's disease during his last term in the White House.

    I have begun to wonder if some of McCain's 'slips' could be some of the same. I am not sure he knows where he actually lives.

    Complain about this comment

  • 186. At 00:51am on 24 Aug 2008, collegefootballfan wrote:

    I like how Obama promises change but never said how or what he is going to change. Obama appears to be smart only because he can really give a speech. When it comes to answering real questions with out a pre written statement, Obama shows that he knows nothing about politics. If you want proof search last week's forum in California. Obama did terrible and couldnt give a real question on any answer. Obama hasnt even finished his first term in the Senate. The only other experience he has is the Illinois Senate and then he organized neighborhood projects. He has no knowledge on foreign policy and the only plan he has on the economy is to raise taxes and socialize everything. He is nothing more than a smooth talker who is full of lies and what concerns me is half the country and all of Europe is in love with him.

    Complain about this comment

  • 187. At 00:53am on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    13, staphylococcus aureus

    I didn't think I would ever agree with you, but on the subject of Hillary I do. She is history. There will be no 2012. The convention will be her kiss-off.

    I do disagree, though about her divorcing Bubba. I think she didn't, not out of duty or for political reasons, but because what binds them overrides an affair or two (or three, or four, or...).

    Complain about this comment

  • 188. At 00:55am on 24 Aug 2008, OnyebuchiTony wrote:

    The comments of John MCain on the Russian conflict with Georgia sounds unecessarily belligerent and hypocritical. One would think that anyone aspiring to the office of the president of USA should have realized that "war-loaded" expressions are ineffective in genuine diplomacy. Moreover, can the US speak with moral authority about the evil of invading another country when she is still dealing with the consequences of her invasion of Iraq - an invasion that MCain supports whole and entire. Most of his speech on foreign policy seems to be predicated on a "war-mongering" and "tough-talking" ideology. This is the same ideology that has undermined the credibility of US- a great country founded on freedom and respect. Sometimes I wonder why politicians fail to connect intimately with the values of the founding fathers of the nation in all their ramifications.

    Complain about this comment

  • 189. At 00:57am on 24 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    We still can!

    "What you see depends upon where you stand..."

    Slainte!
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 190. At 01:07am on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    106, David.

    In your response to staph. aureus (#94) about his being put on a waiting list in England if he showed up bleeding at a hospital, you pointed out that he had never been to England.

    I think he should have the opportunity to put his opinion to the test. This is what we should do. We take him to England, but we don't tell him that the English drive on the other side of the road. When the expected happens, we take him to a hospital and ....

    Complain about this comment

  • 191. At 01:09am on 24 Aug 2008, SaintDominick wrote:

    Ref 172

    The best President of my lifetime was Franklin Delano Roosevelt. If suspect you were referring to Ronald Reagan; may I remind you of those worrisome instances when his wife had to whisper answers in his ear? Things like that may be overlooked by partisan supporters, but they deserve careful analysis and consideration before voting for someone who is clearly not up to the task.
    Incidentally, President Reagan, who was very nice person by the way, was not a fiscal conservative. Even his VP referred to his economic policies as "voodoo economics", a very appropriate description for the fiscal irresponsibility and economic practices that led to the economic debacle we are facing today. There is nothing conservative about "borrow and spend" and passing the bill to our children, in fact, that is the most liberal economic concept anyone could possibly device. To me, a true fiscal conservative is one who either pays for the services he gets, or eliminates the services he is unwilling to pay for.

    Complain about this comment

  • 192. At 01:11am on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    110, threnedio.

    Why are you being polite to staph. aureus? Nobody else is.

    Complain about this comment

  • 193. At 01:17am on 24 Aug 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To #176Justcorbly

    Hooray for our grandchildren who sometimes have better sense than the old folks. I did not know that about Susan Eisenhower.

    I have struggled with epitaphs of 'bleeding heart liberal,' leftist, (I'm left handed so couldn't argue much with that) socialist, even years ago, the so dreaded accusation of communist whenever I tried to express my views on equality, compassion for those in need, the necessity of a democratic government to provide for the needs of all of the people, not just some of the people.

    We have allowed the so called 'right' to paint the so called 'left' in the old definition of sinister, devil's side etc. (look it up)

    I, personally, am very tired of this. I f having a regard for the needs of others, respecting the beliefs of others, wanting to talk to and understand what others think, and trying to promote peace in this world is wrong than I guess you can count me there. I would rather be LEFT than RIGHT!

    Complain about this comment

  • 194. At 01:19am on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 195. At 01:41am on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 196. At 01:48am on 24 Aug 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #160 MAII "if we didn't send 15 billion already to fight AIDS in Africa and just pledged another 45 billion . . ." And who did that? Your own, your very own, George W. Bush. But why would you not want to help those in Africa - or would you rather all AIDS sufferers there just pass it on and kill off the indigenous population? The US does not keep an army in Europe to protect it from Russia, but rather to prevent Russia from taking an aggressive stance towards the USA. If there's any tourniquet to be applied, it should be to your neck.

    Incidentally, spelling my name deliberately incorrectly makes you look more foolish, if that is possible, than your diatribes and boastfulness. Like all big mouths, I suspect you are small where it counts - and that's not between the ears.

    Complain about this comment

  • 197. At 02:05am on 24 Aug 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    pdlodge (#165), really? More left-wing than FDR and Henry Wallace?

    Complain about this comment

  • 198. At 02:15am on 24 Aug 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

    Justin Webb

    Our moderators are exhausted and over worked. You should have asked for additional help or offered more economic incentive for the demands of this weekend.

    Complain about this comment

  • 199. At 02:27am on 24 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    mablesetthetable #187

    Don't give yourself too much credit for being right just this once. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. (Only once in Europe where they go by 24 hour military time :-)

    A woman who will not leave a man for marital infidelity in America is "Mosthink." I'm not surprised you have it. In most Moslem countries and in Israel, a woman cannot get a divorce unless her husband agrees to it. Barbaric.

    Complain about this comment

  • 200. At 02:28am on 24 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Obama and Biden in Springfield Saturday

    Enjoy
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 201. At 02:36am on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    Hi Justin,

    I already made this comment in the previous thread, but I agree.

    Biden is the presidential material here. The Democrats have ham-handed their primary process and made their virtuoso play second fiddle.

    Complain about this comment

  • 202. At 02:38am on 24 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    aquagirl, you were not referred to as a socialist or communist because you felt a need for compassion and equality, you were criticized because you wanted to make rich people poor so that poor people could be rich. The USSR had the same idea. They nearly blew up the world for it. It was their religion. You still think I should be taxed into poverty so that people can stay on welfare all their lives because they will not spend their time learning a trade or profession so that they can earn their own way in life. In Europe there is an excuse, most people don't ever get an opportunity. But here in America this is the land of endless opportunities because there are no guarantees except that you will not be allowed to starve, live on the street, or die for lack of medical care. Other than that, your life is in your own hands. Can't handle freedom? Try going to Russia or China where they don't have any. You will be beating down America's doors to get back in the way jacksforge did. The only one he is kidding is himself. Going back to the uck is his worst nightmare.

    Complain about this comment

  • 203. At 02:43am on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    140. oldnat.

    "So THAT was the result of the CIA human/simian cloning experiment!"

    Never ming staph. aureus and MikeII, how many did they send to Washington?

    Complain about this comment

  • 204. At 02:49am on 24 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Canard, as you get more abusive you obviously feel increasingly that you have lost. And you have already even if you don't acknowledge it. It's not merely that I had greater opportunities in my life than you had, but that I took advantage of them. Look at your prince jug-ears. he had every advantage possible in life and threw them all away. Look at the pathetic wretch he is now. He did that to himself. I am the same age he is and I wouldn't trade places with him for the world.

    Why does America owe Africa billions to treat a disease which can be prevented by education and prudent behavior when that money could more wisely be spent at home treating people here for medical problems which befall them through no fault of their own? There is no answer to that question that would satisfy you. You are under the same misconception as fat Teddy, noblesse oblige. WRONG! Read Ayn Rand's little book "The Virtue of Selfishness" to find out why. You and they are owed NOTHING by America. Be grateful for whatever we throw your way.

    It is you who spells your name incorrectly deliberately to be deceptive. IMO Canard is far more appropriate having read what you have posted.

    Complain about this comment

  • 205. At 02:55am on 24 Aug 2008, drrogeringram wrote:

    Wisdom in Cooperation ---
    Mr. Obama is a wise man. Repeatedly he has said he is not perfect, wants various points of view to be expressed within his cabinet, and needs the support of all Americans.
    International and National Perspective---
    To select Mr. Biden is to round out his willingness to seek an expertise and experience beyond his own.

    This is the time for the USA to assume a role, yes a leadership role, in a cooperative venture, where world peace and prosperity and dignity are to be achieved by collaboration, international and national effort.

    Mr. Obama and Mr. Biden make sense for our time. The other guy can tinker in his multiple homes and learn to send emails to George Bush, thank you very much.

    Complain about this comment

  • 206. At 02:56am on 24 Aug 2008, chewbacca wrote:

    I like how voters, especially the ones in the BBC videos, speak as though they know better about what is going on and how important and what experience is; and how much this makes a difference for their decision, when they probably don't know anything about politics

    This amount of time spent on candidates and veeps clearly shows that the election process here is so overblown and drawn out. It needs to be shortened and to mimic in some form, the british way of electing politicians.

    We focus to much on the candidates, we need to focus on the parties. And my country men need to start caring and pay attention

    Justin, as a person from England you should try to bring the English election system over here, rather than enjoy the ride. (although I understand you are just doing your job and you might not be able to do anything alone. BUT as a person in the media with status, you know that it is the media that is making this dabacle of an election process)

    Complain about this comment

  • 207. At 02:59am on 24 Aug 2008, collegefootballfan wrote:

    #196

    The problem I have with Europe when it comes to foregin policy is that Europe expects the U.S. to serve as their defence force. The missle shield in Poland that the U.S. is paying for is for Europe's defense, not America's. Europe will never learn their lesson. Iraq: An evil dictator in power who commits attrocities against his own people, #1 financer of Al-Qeida and other terrorist organisations, and made weapons of mass destructionand Europe wants to turn their heads. Europe thinks if it ignores a problem, then it will go away. You would think that Europe of all places would know better than that. The U.S. spent trillions of dollars in the cold war for Europe's protection while they very little. Europe blasted Bush for wanting to induct Georgia into NATO a few months ago yet now Europe wants the U.S. do something about Russia. If Georgia was in NATO, Russia would have never invaded. And to all those who blast the U.S. about not caring about the rest of the world's opinions all I can say is that the U.S. will do what is right regardless whether it is popular or not. I dont care what Europe says about our foreign policy. Europe's policy is appeasment. If Europe had decided to take out Hitler when he first invaded Czechoslovakia, WWII would have been minor compared to what it turned out to be. Europe is a jealous continent and it as always been so. They fought among themselves over stupid stuff like land and power. Now that the U.S. is in power and not Europe, Europe camplains immaturely about American policies and how horrible America is. Russia will continue to be a major problem and Europe will do what it always does: ignore the problem beause if you ignore it, the problem will go away.

    Complain about this comment

  • 208. At 02:59am on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    Moderator:

    I can't see why you removed 194 and 195. Certainly worse has been said about marcusaureliusII and he actually seems to enjoy it.

    Complain about this comment

  • 209. At 03:01am on 24 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    mablesetthetable #203

    So you have acknowledged being beaten too. How sad? I'd hoped you'd put up more of a fight. I could have made a better case for your side than you did. Still a losing case though.

    You remind me of the Twilight Zone episode with the beautiful blond actress Inger Stevens. She played the daughter of a man and woman who were served by human-like robots the man invented....until she discovered through the intelligence he had endowed her with that she was a robot too. In the end, they destroye all of the other robots and she became the servant because they couldn't bear to give her up.

    Complain about this comment

  • 210. At 03:07am on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #191, DominickVila:

    Ref 172
    ...

    Incidentally, President Reagan, who was very nice person by the way, was not a fiscal conservative. Even his VP referred to his economic policies as "voodoo economics", a very appropriate description for the fiscal irresponsibility and economic practices that led to the economic debacle we are facing today.

    ----

    Reagan's economics was to "borrow" in the lean times to lower taxes and help stimulate the economy. A very similar idea to what FDR did to bring the US out of the depression. Along with a military strategy that keeps excess employees employed as soldiers in putting out brush fires around the world, and the industrial research/development, and defense industries humming.

    Where Washington goes wrong is they never pay down the debt in the boon times, when tax revenues soar. They just spend the gains, and during the next bust cycle the world is in an even more painful situation. Also, the Americans need to figure out how to keep their economy humming without war.

    Complain about this comment

  • 211. At 03:09am on 24 Aug 2008, collegefootballfan wrote:

    MarcusAureliusII

    I agree with everthing you said. We are a middle-income family and in my parents lifetime they have paid enough in taxes to send me to college. I got some scholarship money, but Auburn is a tough school and I did not get enough so I have to go to Jr. college for a year and hope I get more nexty year. Instead of my parents sending me to college with their own money that they worked hard for, illegal immigrants get college grants, people with unemployed parents get college grants, and people who irresponsibly wasted their money and file for bankruptcy get college grants all paid for by my parents. Democrats blast Republicans for the American debt, but in reality Democrats tax upper and middle class Americans (who worked hard for their money, managed their money, and made good investiments so that lazy people can live off the government and my tax money) so that the nation can spent billions of dollars on social wellfare and unemployment checks. If we eliminated all that spending, then we wouldnt have near as high a debt.

    Complain about this comment

  • 212. At 03:10am on 24 Aug 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    190. allmymarbles - ref MAII "When the expected happens, we take him to a hospital and ...." Better still, don't bother with the hospital; cheaper and cleaner all 'round!

    Complain about this comment

  • 213. At 03:16am on 24 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    mable-set-the-table, I am truely sorry they deleted #194 and #195. I am sure they were particularly nasty and at least one of them directed at me. "Hell hath no fury like the tongue of a woman scorned." OK BBC moderators, are you going to delete Shakespeare too? (What do you expect from government workers anyway. They seem perpetually "on break.")

    Complain about this comment

  • 214. At 03:18am on 24 Aug 2008, neil_a2 wrote:

    Wow, the insults flow freely. (If you are not sober when you post, please use the 'power' switch to post)

    (Obama) "Scotty, de-energize the hype engine." The Text messaging did not change the message.

    With Biden, the networks should allow an extra 2 hours to the VP debates. Certainly companies that sell products to help you stay awake should advertise.

    "The President lied. Therefore, my voting record isn't my fault." There is some some interesting logic.

    For those who relish formulating well formed insults, and find your posts getting 'removed by the moderator': If your NHS allows, please consider professional help.

    I do wish Obama well.

    Jesse Jackson should be spouting, "See! I told you so!" to those unfortunate enough to be in earshot.

    I like Biden. He wears aviator sunglasses and looks determined.

    "our houses are bigger than your houses" - your have demonstrated the merits of a third year education and determination. It served you well.

    Complain about this comment

  • 215. At 03:18am on 24 Aug 2008, Fight4USA8 wrote:


    Justin Webb, of BBC said "Why is it this way round: why isn't the able, experienced, reassuring guy the one at the top of the ticket?"

    Sorry, to remind Webb that Joe Biden was one of the presidential candidate out of 8 or 10 individuals, guess what? The Democrats said "Obama is the one," besides no one matches Obama's judgement, that is the major job experience for the president. You have to come up with something better than that to put down Obama.

    Complain about this comment

  • 216. At 03:21am on 24 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Beth (174),

    Thanks for that distressing link.
    ;-(
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 217. At 03:33am on 24 Aug 2008, neil_a2 wrote:

    #167. DominickVila

    Dang, I never thought Justin would be posting under an alias to stoke the Blog.

    Cool!

    I'll go to bed on that one.

    Complain about this comment

  • 218. At 03:34am on 24 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    mable-set-the-table

    I was heartbroken to learn just checking the internet that the exquisitely beautiful actress Inger Stevens committed suicide in 1970 because she was so unhappy. One of my favorite actresses Kim Novak who was interviewed by Larry King a few years ago and in no way resembled the stunningly beautiful, seductive, and secretive characters she played in the movies 40+ years ago is still alive and kicking but I think I'd still run away with her given half a chance even if she is in her seventies. I haven't checked on what became of Ann Francis, I'm almost afraid to find out and I have no idea what became of Ann Margret. Those of us who lived through that era have to laugh at the sadly slim pickings of their modern day counterparts. They have all the sex appeal of wet noodles. Maybe it's time to turn our attention from Hollywood to Bollywood. Can you do the dance of the seven veils? (not Bollywood at all obviously) Can you hold a jewel in your navel? To paraphrase Seinfeld's soup Nazi if you can't; "No wine for you." :-)

    Complain about this comment

  • 219. At 03:41am on 24 Aug 2008, Fight4USA8 wrote:

    Justin Webb, of BBC said "Why is it this way round: why isn't the able, experienced, reassuring guy the one at the top of the ticket?"

    Sorry, to remind Webb, Joe Biden was one of the presidential candidates out of 8 or 10 individuals, guess what? The voters said "Obama is the one," besides no one matches Obama's judgement, that is the major job experience for the president. You have to come up with something better than that to put down Obama.

    Webb, before you give your expert opinion, please think!

    Complain about this comment

  • 220. At 03:42am on 24 Aug 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    204. MarcusAureliusII: "as you get more abusive you obviously feel increasingly that you have lost." Supposing the phrase is known to you, that's really the pot calling the kettle black. Your posts are the most abusive of any here, not only to other posters but to whole nations and continents who don't suit your myopic views on life or the world at large. I don't know what I am supposed to have lost. To answer your question "Why does America owe Africa billions to treat a disease which can be prevented by education and prudent behavior" - America does not "owe" Africa such aid, it was volunteered. Are you so stupid and ignorant that you do not know or have not seen the ravages that HIV can bring? Perhaps you live in an area cut off from regular human life where there is no disease, no obesity, no lung cancer. Like the Church of Rome you consider that "abstention" and education is the only way to stop the spread of this insidious disease, one which our evangelical leaders considered was the wrath of God on gay men; perhaps you subscribe to that notion?

    With regard to the Prince of Wales, I feel quite sure that he would not want to change places with you either. His positions are apolitical but he has brought about a dialogue on numerous important subjects in the UK and has used his position advantageously. You make judgements on those with whom you have had no contact and indeed have never visited their country. Amongst your talents, telepathy seems to be one of them, since your opinions cannot possibly be based on empirical knowledge of either Prince Charles or the United Kingdom. As for jug ears, America has a potential President about whom the same thing could be said, but common decency (an attribute apparently unknown to you) forbids us to use it.

    As for the word "canard" I'm surprised that you would use one originating in the French language, but I can assure you that the name is Cunard, neither a liar nor a duck.

    Complain about this comment

  • 221. At 03:44am on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #193, aquarizonagal:

    "I have struggled with epitaphs of 'bleeding heart liberal,' leftist, (I'm left handed so couldn't argue much with that) socialist, even years ago, the so dreaded accusation of communist whenever I tried to express my views on equality, compassion for those in need, the necessity of a democratic government to provide for the needs of all of the people, not just some of the people."

    The difference in opinion of what "government" means goes back to the origin of "society". Somewhere between Anarchy (zero laws enforced with "frontier justice"), and slavery (100% taxes, and no rights or freedoms) is a system of government. What people argue about is the role that government should play in providing for the necessities of peoples lives. Many people do not understand that the role of government is "by force of law". The government forces its citizens to comply with laws, and forces its citizens to surrender property. The more government you have, the less choice and freedom you have.

    "We have allowed the so called 'right' to paint the so called 'left' in the old definition of sinister, devil's side etc. (look it up)"

    What I object to is the monochrome nature of the debate. It's not right, and left, or right and wrong. It's shades of gray, not conservative and liberal. First comes the labeling, then once properly pigeonholed, the hatred. (btw, it's epithets, not epitaphs)

    "I, personally, am very tired of this. If having a regard for the needs of others, respecting the beliefs of others, wanting to talk to and understand what others think, and trying to promote peace in this world is wrong than I guess you can count me there. I would rather be LEFT than RIGHT!"

    I once received the beating of my life for telling my father that in regards to nuclear war, "I'd rather be red than dead". He was correct of coarse, capitulation to an ideology you don't believe in is not the right answer. His method was barbaric, and I would have appreciated the more intellectual conversation from him. This story is an analogy to the rhetoric of political debate; labeling, castigation, anti-intellectual, frustration, epithets, and shouting at each other with closed ears and minds.

    Complain about this comment

  • 222. At 03:54am on 24 Aug 2008, bethpa wrote:

    Ed and Jack

    I've come across other references to killing liberals coming from right wing Christians. Liberals and moderates don't listen to what these people are saying..but they are not being censored by the government and imo they are inciting over the public airways.

    Sorry about the distress it caused you Ed...but imo some of these right wing people are very dangerous and like a cult in their adherence to dogma.

    Ed I sent your American Prayer song to others with email.

    Liberals, contrary to the lies, are actually very spiritual people who believe strongly in human rights. Thats why Obama has a religious significance for so many.

    Complain about this comment

  • 223. At 04:01am on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #174, bethpa:

    I can show you as many "hate speech" quotes from so called "liberals". Like, Nancy Giles from CBS, Nina Totenberg from NPR, or Janeane Garofalo, or Al Franken. The frequency of the "liberals" to resort to the reductio ad Hitlerum.

    It is the absurdity of the debate of fools with blinders and ear plugs.

    Complain about this comment

  • 224. At 04:08am on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 225. At 04:08am on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    in reply to #208, allmymarbles:

    Moderator:

    I can't see why you removed 194 and 195. Certainly worse has been said about marcusaureliusII and he actually seems to enjoy it.

    ---

    Perhaps they want to keep the site clear of sadomasochistic verbal intercourse.

    :)

    Complain about this comment

  • 226. At 04:11am on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    212, David.

    When I say things like that the moderator punishes me. I had a couple of beauties for staph. aureus which are now lost to posterity.

    Complain about this comment

  • 227. At 04:12am on 24 Aug 2008, bethpa wrote:

    RealFrigid

    btw its "of course" not "of coarse"..but that was a coarse treatment you received for having a different point of view. In a way the errors are interesting. .."bleeding heart liberal" is an "epitaph" in the error.

    "The more government you have, the less choice and freedom you have." RealFrigid quote

    I would say the least choice and freedom is with anarchy. A good government should provide choices and establish freedom with law and order and limit the rule of the jungle.

    Complain about this comment

  • 228. At 04:12am on 24 Aug 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    test post.

    Complain about this comment

  • 229. At 04:12am on 24 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Canard I can hardly stop laughing at your posting it is so funny. Where do you think I heard the expression "jug-ears?" Only one place, on a Brit-com "Are you being served" which is the way the staff referred to their supervisor Mr. Cutbert Rumbold.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Are_You_Being_Served%3F

    And guess what, it happens to have been a BBC production. Hahahahahahaha.

    Are my postings here more abusive than anyone elses? More abusive than jacksforge's, Ed Iglehart's, or Xie_Ming's who say endlessly that Jews whom they refer to as Zionists have no right to a homeland of their own, no right to live after having been exterminated by Europe? You find MY posting more offensive than that? I find Europe and BBC offensive. So what, it exists, learn to live with it as a fact of life. I have.

    BTW, ever hear of condoms? Many people won't use them. Ten or fifteen years after they asserted their manhood, they are begging for expensive drugs just to stay alive. Why should I care? Because you do? Who are you?

    Considerng that the "Prince of tithes" has been given every opportunity in life money can buy, his contribution to the world has been just about undetectable. He has contributed nothing of value to the human species with his life. Just another parasite. I see the remnants of your society when they can't stand it anymore and come here. Frankly, I'm getting pretty sick and tired of hearing this one guy with an English accent who sells knives, vegetable choppers, and other cheap kitchen appliances on TV at 3 AM. I'd rather watch a test pattern only they no longer have them.

    Obama's ears do stick out don't they. Pretty funny looking. Dangerous to laugh at someone so frightening, a veritable neophyte who might soon have his finger on the button to launch ten thousand hydrogen bombs. Almost as scary as a guy in the same spot who spent five years being tortured in a Vietnamese prisoner of war camp....voluntarily. Glad I don't live in Hanoi or Saigon. I wouldn't sell them any life insurance if McCain gets elected.

    Complain about this comment

  • 230. At 04:15am on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    209, staph. aureus.

    You seem much taken with robots. It must be a kinship thing.

    Complain about this comment

  • 231. At 04:15am on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #222, bethpa:

    "Liberals, contrary to the lies, are actually very spiritual people who believe strongly in human rights. Thats why Obama has a religious significance for so many."

    Check out the Weather Underground Organization, Animal Liberation Front, Earth Liberation Front, The Symbionese Liberation Army, and the UNABomber.

    There are crazies of every sort, but don't be fooled into thinking that spiritual liberal people have no blood on their hands.

    Complain about this comment

  • 232. At 04:17am on 24 Aug 2008, collegefootballfan wrote:

    Bethpa if liberals truly believed in human rights then why do they support abortion. Sure try to pass it off as "well its not a life until the 2nd trimester", or "well I believe that a woman has the right to choose", or "its only a life if the fetus is wanted." Liberals spend some much time and energy huging trees, fighting for animal rights and trying to keep us from drilling in Alaska for oil which would seriously ease the pain at the pumps for families. Life begins at conception and abortion is murder, that really sounds like human rights to me. Its hyporcitical to call conservatives a cult when you have Nancy Pelosi leading cheers about the Democratic Party like a cheerleader or Howard Dean screaming like and idiot that the dems were taking back the white house. Remember the hippies (cults) is what started the liberal movement in America.

    Complain about this comment

  • 233. At 04:19am on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    201, Real.

    You are only presidential material if you can get elected. Biden couldn't.

    But, yes, he would probably make a good president, but he would have to get the position through default.

    Complain about this comment

  • 234. At 04:20am on 24 Aug 2008, bethpa wrote:

    #223
    real Frigid

    Were they death threats ? and have any liberals gone into a conservative church and tried to kill children after listening to them?

    I find it extremely hard to believe that Nina Tottenberg has given any hate speech. She is a very mild mannered woman!! : )

    Can you supply a link that shows Nina Tottenberg giving hate speech?

    and did you read the hate speech at the link I gave? Just substitute in the words blacks or Jews and it is clear this is hate speech.

    Complain about this comment

  • 235. At 04:23am on 24 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    RealFrigid

    You were right, your father was dead wrong. It is better to die fighting for your freedom than to live enslaved like a caged animal. If you don't believe it, ask the people still alive in Eastern Europe who lived under Soviet Communism. The attitude better dead than red was the only thing that kept all of us from being slaves of the Soviet evil empire. It was the only strategy for which they had no effective response. It is why we are still free today. It was the policy of the United States government and NATO. Twenty thousand hydrogen bombs which would have incinerated half of the human race and fatally irradiated the other half was the muscle behind the policy of MAD, mutaually assured destruction. Having conceded to your father, you have proven that you are unwilling to die fighting for the freedom of yourself or your family. How you live with that for the rest of your life is your problem. BTW, believe it or not, eventually you WILL die. The only signifigance your life has is what you do between now and then.

    Complain about this comment

  • 236. At 04:24am on 24 Aug 2008, DennisinOhio wrote:

    Joe, a 36 year member of the US Senate is about as inside the beltway as could be possible! Only 4 Senators in US history served longer! This is change? Unpopular even in his home state - got only 9000 votes in Iowa caucus - what does this bring to the ticket except another ecomaniac? Knowing he will never be President, he'll take a chance he'll luck into it with an Obama stumble. More likely, in the months ahead, he'll be trying to act like Superman as Obama plummets in the polls like a stone thrown off a bridge, but eaJoe will be so busy telling us how great he is he won't even notice the impending landslide that will take the Dem party to ever new depths. If there was ever a duo not ready for "prime time", this is surely it. Will make watching the events unfold in coming months quite entertaining. Not sure exactly why the British feel they "understand" the mood of America - they didn't in 1776 and they certainly don't now!

    Complain about this comment

  • 237. At 04:27am on 24 Aug 2008, bethpa wrote:

    OMG I had no idea that Totenberg could be so harsh! : ) (This is mild for America...but she is wrong to say these things...and she would probably acknowledge that)

    On Senator Jesse Helms: "I think he ought to be worried about what's going on in the Good Lord's mind, because if there is retributive justice, he'll get AIDS from a transfusion, or one of his grandchildren will."[6]

    On General William Boykin: "I hope he's not long for this world." After a rebuke, corrected herself: "No, no. I mean, in his job. In his job, in his job, please, in his job."[7][8]

    ..................................

    "Among her other awards, Totenberg won the Columbia University Dupont Award in 1988 for her coverage of the Supreme Court nominations. She has been honored seven times by the American Bar Association for excellence in legal reporting.[1] She also won the first-ever Tony House award presented by the American Judicature Society for a career body of work and was the first radio journalist to be honored by the National Press Foundation as Broadcaster of the Year."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nina_Totenberg

    Complain about this comment

  • 238. At 04:34am on 24 Aug 2008, DougTexan wrote:

    Awe, now your not acting right? Have your children raised by the state, heck, half of all children musy be gay, especially if we teach them to be.

    And who's threatening whos life. I listen to 'right wing' radio and your all effin nuts, in twenty years I've never, never heard anyone say "..kill a liberal", or say "we'd be better off without them". Heck, on half my views are based in liberalism.

    Bethpa,#222 B.S. unless your counting thr KKK as right wing christians and your black I don't believe you.

    Real, #223,.. Exactly stated. We "Christian" or "Right Wing" (not inclusive, alot of LIberal Christians) can listen and even disagree or accept in part, but staunch Socialist don't, why, because there is no middle groung when you go hard left to Socialist/Communism.

    Even Chinas Communism being diluted with capitalism is beginning to shatter. Can't have it both ways because freedom wins. Those of you who really believe that the Government should share the wealth, need to share 'all' of yours first.

    AHHH. It would make 'you' as one of the poorest. Why do you want to make all of us that way? Any pie sliced and given away is gone.

    lost words, the two million between the lines

    peace my posting family
    its all good

    Complain about this comment

  • 239. At 04:39am on 24 Aug 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#222Bethpa

    Thanks! I so agree. Could we all just listen to each other and not be so mean?

    Very naive of me, but how hard would it be to really 'give peace a chance,' both in our own lives and in the world.

    Complain about this comment

  • 240. At 04:42am on 24 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    mable-set-the-table

    "209, staph. aureus.

    You seem much taken with robots. It must be a kinship thing."

    I am extremely disappointed in you. Is that the best you can muster that won't break the rules? Try again. While I don't hold you or your views in high esteem, I know you can do better than that.

    I'm flying on 1989 Chateau Giscours. Smokey Bordeaux aromas I'm so familiar with, like eating sour plums you pucker from but can't stop. Parker didn't like it, Suckling did. I enjoyed it a lot with a rib steak. Still have some more but there's much better in my cellar too. What are you flying on? What's in your cellar? What's in your belfry? :-)

    Complain about this comment

  • 241. At 04:45am on 24 Aug 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

    To#221Realfrigid

    Cold!

    I don't agree with you but I will respect your opinion.

    Sorry, I am not a native English speaker so my spelling and command of this complex language is probably way less than perfect. I tend to think in other languages and then translate. I will work harder at this in future.

    Complain about this comment

  • 242. At 04:50am on 24 Aug 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

    This is starting to get way beyond me so I will bid you all happy debating and please be kind to one another.

    Complain about this comment

  • 243. At 04:51am on 24 Aug 2008, bethpa wrote:

    #231 RealFrigid

    Did any of them use the public airways to spread their hate? Ronald Reagan's son has advocated putting a grenade into a baby's rectum and killing it at its first birthday because of the baby's name. And I have complained to the FCC about this use of the public airways to spread hate.

    #232 collegefootballfan

    Liberals want to save the lives of babies who have left the mother's womb. there is a a difference of opinion about when life begins...When does God give a fetus a soul?
    How do you or anyone know the answer to that question?


    Liberals often want the US to develop alternative forms of energy because the carbon fuels are pollutants that damage the planet. If Gore had been president Detroit would have developed cars with higher gas mileage today..and not be losing sales...and the US woudl be less dependent upon foreign oil.

    I like to think of Jefferson as the first American liberal. And the liberals were the ones who opposed slavery and wanted women to be able to vote (Its a different way of thinking than you are accustomed to hearing..and the reason is because the news media does not represent liberal points of view.)

    Complain about this comment

  • 244. At 04:52am on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #235, MarcusAureliusII :

    RealFrigid

    "You were right, your father was dead wrong. It is better to die fighting for your freedom than to live enslaved like a caged animal."

    He was wrong, and so are you. What I said was it would be better to submit to soviet communism that die in a nuclear holocaust. I was naive, and seeking his view point. But, what I got was barbarism. You're statement above is no better, since both statements are false dichotomies.

    "Having conceded to your father, you have proven that you are unwilling to die fighting for the freedom of yourself or your family. How you live with that for the rest of your life is your problem. "

    Again, you misread what I wrote. Lern2reed beder.

    "BTW, believe it or not, eventually you WILL die. The only significance your life has is what you do between now and then."

    Profound. How about the accomplishments I've chalked up between birth and now?

    Complain about this comment

  • 245. At 04:55am on 24 Aug 2008, collegefootballfan wrote:

    to: aquarizonagal

    You are very naive. Thats the problem with liberals and democrats. They think that if we just send fruitcakes and Christmas cards (oops! excuse me, Holidays cards) that everyone would just love each other and hold hands and sing kum-by-yah and it would be all great. Thats called utopia. While I would very much like to see world peace, I know it will not be achieved by ignoring terrorism or sharring the peace pipe. If you wont world peace so bad, Ill give you the secret to it.
    1. Convert to Islam
    2. Cover your entire body in a veil and robes
    3. Strap on a backpack with explosives and blow up innocent people.

    or we can take out enemies before they take us out. World peace will never be achieved. There will always be a dictator, terrorist, criminal, or whatever who will try to destroy the world.

    Complain about this comment

  • 246. At 04:56am on 24 Aug 2008, bethpa wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 247. At 04:57am on 24 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Dennisinohio

    The Brits don't have a clue. Nobody from outside the US does. Even those who come here and become citizens like jf don't. We give them simple tests to answer basic facts of American history before we make them citizens but that doesn't mean they actually understand it. It doesn't really matter. Their children born here will be assimilated and be just like the rest of us, much to their horror.

    Watching foreigners like BBC reporters trying to understand America in all its intracacies including its politics is like watching Neanderthals trying to understand a television set by taking one apart and looking at the pieces. They can gawk at them forever but they don't understand the principle of how it works. Worst of all, they don't even try to find out. It's endlessly entertaining, like going to the monkey house at the zoo. My favorte is Katty Kay. Watch her at the conventions. I've never seen anyone enjoy a job more. And she does try so hard. By their standards, she's a veteran, the one in the know who's been here a long tiime. You get a great deal of insight into how they think by watching them.

    Complain about this comment

  • 248. At 05:05am on 24 Aug 2008, bethpa wrote:

    aquarizonagal

    : ) yes we agree... I oppose the death penalty and think no state should have the right to take the life of a person who is incarcerated and no longer capable of causing harm to others.

    Most conservatives have no idea of how religiously grounded many liberals are. My allegiance is to God and not to a state...or a flag.

    Complain about this comment

  • 249. At 05:12am on 24 Aug 2008, bethpa wrote:

    Hate speech from the son of a president and put on the national airways..and there is no widespread reporting in the media..but notice one of the reports came from a religion writer

    "When he said that children named Hezbollah, after the Lebanese group designated as a terrorist organization by the U.S., would eventually become terrorists themselves and, hence, "he would like to stick grenades in their rear ends and make them explode", the religion writer for the Austin American-Statesman characterized his words as "vile", "hateful" and "outrageous".[10] The liberal media watch dog group Fairness and Accuracy In Reporting characterized statements by Reagan as "death threats" when he criticized Mark Dice and other individuals who sent letters and DVDs to U.S. troops stationed in Iraq blaming the government for 9/11. Reagan said, for instance, "We ought to find the people who are doing this, take them out and shoot them. Really. You take them out, they are traitors to this country, and shoot them.... I'll pay for the bullets."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Reagan

    And this is mild..he has said worse things.

    Complain about this comment

  • 250. At 05:13am on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #227, bethpa :

    "btw its "of course" not "of coarse"

    Ouch, yes I saw that typo after posting. I have a decent web spell checker, but occasionally those properly spelled wrong words get through my cognitive filter.

    In relation to your original topic of hate speech, it is unfortunate that epithets often lead to epitaphs.

    "I would say the least choice and freedom is with anarchy. A good government should provide choices and establish freedom with law and order and limit the rule of the jungle."

    There is the possibility of an anarchy of law, where the excessive number of laws make every citizen a criminal. This would be a tyranny of slavery by law.

    My point however, was that those "laws" which transfer property are not an act of charity, they are an act of force (violence). Laws that protect peoples rights, freedoms, and property were the ones that the framers of the American Constitution wanted to limit their government. Pretty quickly, the camel put his nose in the tent, and the government was seen as a way to relieve indigence and suffering.

    I guess to put it another way; Say there was no such thing as "government". If one of your neighbors houses burnt down, and you wanted to help them out but did not have sufficient means, would it be right for you to force all your other neighbors who might have the means to rebuild the poor neighbors house against their will?

    Using government just masks the act of taking property from those who have the means, to support those who do not. You have removed the possibility of charity.

    Complain about this comment

  • 251. At 05:16am on 24 Aug 2008, MarcusTribet wrote:

    The selection of Biden as his running mate is a tacit admission by Obama that he's not up to the Presidency. For months Obama has derided Washington insiders, but now he's had to bring one on board in order to try to give credibility to his ticket.

    Obama casts himself as the fresh new man who will change Washington, but with the selection of Biden he's flip-flopped on his fundamental message. He's shown himself to be just another politician whose "principles" are merely slogans that can be casually discarded for the sake of political self-preservation.

    I don't think this move will win over either (i) disaffected Hillary supporters who have been leaning toward McCain, or (ii) independent-minded voters who want a Commander in Chief whose mettle has been tested to some extent.

    I also think many people will equate the relative strengths and weaknesses of Obama and Biden with those of Bush and Cheney. Few will want to see that type of dynamic immediately replicated in the White House.

    Complain about this comment

  • 252. At 05:17am on 24 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    aquagal

    "Sorry, I am not a native English speaker so my spelling and command of this complex language is probably way less than perfect. I tend to think in other languages and then translate. I will work harder at this in future."

    What a strange thing to say especially since I haven't seen any mistakes from you I can remember. This is the kind of self deprecating thinking Maoists forced on their victims in re-education camps during the cultural revolution. I've assumed you were not originally Chinese. Perhaps I was wrong about that.

    English is not merely a complex language, it is inconsistent to the point of being irrational. One simple example, compare the pronounciation of cough and though. We inherited it from Britain and now we are stuck with it for better or worse. I'm not so sure we will be stuck with the British forever though (cough.) Perhaps the EU will take them off our hands :-)

    Complain about this comment

  • 253. At 05:20am on 24 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Looks like another troll. Last week someone tried posting under Marcus Aurilius III, now it's Marcus Tribet. I got them to delete that troll, I'll have to complain about his one too.

    Complain about this comment

  • 254. At 05:28am on 24 Aug 2008, bethpa wrote:

    Well its a dilemma ..how to give the examples of right wing hate speech..because they break the rules of the BBC site...sigh ...

    Your English is fine aquarizonagal..don't let anyone bully you about it. I can find more errors in some of the posts of other people who speak English as a first language.

    Complain about this comment

  • 255. At 05:33am on 24 Aug 2008, collegefootballfan wrote:

    to: RealFrigid

    "Liberals want to save the lives of babies who have left the mother's womb. there is a a difference of opinion about when life begins...When does God give a fetus a soul?
    How do you or anyone know the answer to that question?"

    The only advice I can give you on that one is to read something called the Bible. Apparently Europe has gotten of of it.
    When people stop reading it, society becomes what it is today.

    -----------

    "Liberals often want the US to develop alternative forms of energy because the carbon fuels are pollutants that damage the planet. If Gore had been president Detroit would have developed cars with higher gas mileage today..and not be losing sales...and the US woudl be less dependent upon foreign oil."

    Wrong again. Alternative fuel is the future but it is very costly and are years away from being affortable. The Dems say they are for the poor people yet they expect these people to run out and buy new cars. President Clinton vetoed drilling in Alaska in 1992 because he said it would be 5 years before Americans could use it. It is now 16 years later and Obama is giving us the same crap Clinton did.

    --------------

    "I like to think of Jefferson as the first American liberal. And the liberals were the ones who opposed slavery and wanted women to be able to vote (Its a different way of thinking than you are accustomed to hearing..and the reason is because the news media does not represent liberal points of view.)"


    Yeah the founding fathers were all considered liberals in their day. If I lived in 1776 I would be a liberal too. However, the founding fathers all believed that you should work hard and earn a living yourself. The idea of social wellfare was unthinkable. I am also certain that they cared more about people and values than liberals today do. Jefferson is one of my most favorite presidents and if he was alive to day he would be a coservative republican. Maybe you need to read up on him.

    It blows my mind that Britain wants to lecture Americans on the U.S. as if we dont know our politics, our issues, or values, and our history. And about the media. You must have never seen the American news because the American media is nothing but leftist liberals who follow Obama around and report on every little thing he does and McCain has gotten very little coverage by the American media. Whats sad for the media is their extensice Obamaism isnt paying off because polls in America are dead even.

    Complain about this comment

  • 256. At 05:36am on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #254, bethpa:

    "Your English is fine aquarizonagal..don't let anyone bully you about it. I can find more errors in some of the posts of other people who speak English as a first language."

    I concur Beth. I didn't even realize that aquarizonagal was not a native English speaker. I find that the worst abuses are by those too lazy to even try to write decently.

    Complain about this comment

  • 257. At 05:39am on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #255, collegefootballfan:

    That would be Bethpa, not I.

    Complain about this comment

  • 258. At 05:47am on 24 Aug 2008, collegefootballfan wrote:

    Yeah sorry about that I caught that after I posted it.

    Complain about this comment

  • 259. At 06:12am on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    To Bethpa,

    "I like to think of Jefferson as the first American liberal. And the liberals were the ones who opposed slavery and wanted women to be able to vote (Its a different way of thinking than you are accustomed to hearing..and the reason is because the news media does not represent liberal points of view.)"

    You might want to wiki -- "Liberal" it's modern meaning has become mostly unworkable, as is the term "Conservative".

    There is a difference between liberal and classical liberal. Jefferson was influenced most heavily by John Locke. He and Madison founded the Democratic-Republican Party, which separated into two parties in 1912, the Democratic, and the Republican. Both claimed to be the spirit of Jefferson.

    The anti-slavery party, was actually Republicans, whose leader at that time was Abraham Lincoln. At the 1888 Republican National Convention, Frederic Douglass became the first African-American to be nominated for President of the United States in a major party's roll call vote.

    But, how far the apples have fallen from the tree. Jefferson would be appalled by both the American major parties, were he alive today.

    Complain about this comment

  • 260. At 06:14am on 24 Aug 2008, bethpa wrote:

    Real Frigid

    If money is not moved from the wealthy to the less wealthy by the government or some other means (charity..religious views etc) you will end up with a weakened society. The smart and powerful will take from the weak..and the weak are often children.

    Some of these wealthy people are people who do not have normal feelings for other people. They lack compassion and empathy. ( It might be useful to succeed as a businessman to lack feelings for others) And you will get what we are seeing in the US more and more and what occurs in Third world nations. A few wealthy people and a large poor class...with bad health and a bad education. The poor are then a drag on the economics of a society.

    Complain about this comment

  • 261. At 06:16am on 24 Aug 2008, bethpa wrote:

    collegefootballfan (grasshopper)

    Where in the Bible does it discuss abortion? Can you give me the verses?

    A Pruis gets about 45mi/gal. Why don't more American cars get that kind of mileage?

    Alternative energy is being used today by other nations..and there has been a recent development by a professor at MIT in storing the sun's energy to be used at night

    read grasshopper about wind energy
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_development#Wind_power

    And maybe YOU better read about Jefferson. He was very supportive of the Unitarian Church and thought that would be the dominant church in America..and that is my religion. And I also started as an Episcopalian ,..as did Jefferson.

    Jefferson wrote his own version of the Bible and took out all references to Christ being God. No miracles in the Jefferson Bible

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

    (By the way I am an American.)

    Complain about this comment

  • 262. At 06:19am on 24 Aug 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 263. At 06:22am on 24 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Based on what I'm hearing on American TV, today might be the day Obama's incompetence finally put a wooden stake through the heart of his pathetic campaign. Hillary Clinton's supporters are fighting mad. They and their candidate have been abused. Biden himself said Obama was not fit to be president and praised McCain. The Republicans will be playing that tape on TV probably from now until election day.

    Complain about this comment

  • 264. At 06:42am on 24 Aug 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 265. At 06:43am on 24 Aug 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 266. At 06:49am on 24 Aug 2008, collegefootballfan wrote:

    "Thou salt not kill" Exodus 20:13
    Websters defines life as: "the quality of life and animals that makes it possible for them to take in food, grow, produce others of their kind, etc. taht makes them different from rocks, water, etc. Now of course a liberal would go back and say what you said: "...When does God give a fetus a soul?
    How do you or anyone know the answer to that question?" Soul is tied to man. A man is dead when his soul has left his body. If no one (supposedly) knows that answer, then why would you tempt God and support abortion because you might be killing one with a soul.

    -------

    Again you do not understand me on alternative fuel. Why we have developed alternate fuel, its is highly expensive and we are years away from it becomming afordable and widley used. Do you own a car that uses alternative fuel? Everyone can not buy those at the present nor will they in the next 15 years. Drill in Alaska and build refineries and we will benefit in 2 years.

    -----
    And about Jefferson, I never said anything about his religion. I was strickly speaking of his political views and just because you both have the same religion does not make you political allies.

    Complain about this comment

  • 267. At 06:50am on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    I would think that what militant Hillary supporters would be most upset about is that this election was supposed to be about "change". To them that change meant "no more white men", so they would concede begrudgingly to a black man.

    A large portion of the Democratic base was energized by the notion of shedding the legacy of rich white guys being president. It reinforces the Republican message, that Obama is a celebrity without substance. It will also give pause to Obama's Black base, who were excited by a minority ticket. I think this was the origin of the thinking, "no Hillary, no win".

    Now, the specter emerges of needing a white man on the ticket in order to shore up the inadequacies of the "popular" candidate.

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2066676/posts

    Perhaps, John McCain should tap Hillary as his running mate.

    Complain about this comment

  • 268. At 06:59am on 24 Aug 2008, collegefootballfan wrote:

    Bethpa know you really show why liberals are idiots.


    "If money is not moved from the wealthy to the less wealthy by the government or some other means (charity..religious views etc) you will end up with a weakened society. The smart and powerful will take from the weak..and the weak are often children."

    How does the smart and wealthy take from the weak? Last time I checked working hard, taking your education seriously, going to college, earning a living, becoming successful, making good smart investments, and retiring with money that you earned is stealling from the weak? If upper and middle income people do not collect wellfare then how are they stealling from the poor? If anything the poor steals from me everytime I get paid and the goverment takes wellfare out of my check. The Soviet Union practice your system and it did the complete opposite.

    --------

    "Some of these wealthy people are people who do not have normal feelings for other people. They lack compassion and empathy. ( It might be useful to succeed as a businessman to lack feelings for others) And you will get what we are seeing in the US more and more and what occurs in Third world nations. A few wealthy people and a large poor class...with bad health and a bad education. The poor are then a drag on the economics of a society."

    With your views the American Dream is impossible. You teach the poor to remain poor and the lazy to remain lazy by spoon feeding everyone with unemployment checks and college grants. There is no motavation to improve yourself, because you get everything paid for. Maybe you need to look at one of my comments #211. It sounds like to me your are jealous of those who become successful. The majority of businessmen started on the bottom and worked their way up, or they spent time and money on a good education to reach the point where they are at.

    Complain about this comment

  • 269. At 07:07am on 24 Aug 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    Perhaps the third time is the charm - I’ve removed what might possibly be considered offensive but the Moderators all seem to have different interpretations of what is acceptable. I imagine they work in shifts so opinions must differ hour by hour.

    #229. MarcusAureliusII - "I can hardly stop laughing at your posting" My! You are easily amused. "Are You Being Served?" is just the type of show which would entertain you - over thirty years old and a caricature British life as it was pre-Thatcher. Hardly cutting edge today, but then smutty humour and sexual innuendo may just suit your reactionary mind. Incidentally, the first name of Mr Rumbold was Cuthbert. Nevertheless I am astonished that you would even watch a programme from Britain, let alone from the BBC and transmitted by PBS.

    Yes, in my opinion your posts are more offensive than those posters you mention. You have no grace nor respect for the opinions of others. Of course we have heard of condoms, but in some cultures there is a stigma attached to their use - and those who are members of the Church of Rome are banned completely from using them, whether as birth control or as a prophylactic. I was in South Africa sometime ago and learned that it was a common practice for men who had been contaminated to believe that they could rid themselves of the disease by having intercourse with a virgin. Apparently this was quite common, and thus the disease was spread and the children brought about (either as a result of the act, or later, the mother having been infected) were likewise infected through no fault of their own. Education and condoms would not have helped the young women or their offspring. While I cannot agree with all Mr Bush has done, certainly the financial assistance he volunteered to Africa is one of the best things during his time in office. You ask "why should I care?" For the same reason as those who saved Jews from a terrible fate - because of compassion for their fellow man, regardless of race, colour or religion. Some people do care about injustice in the world but, from what you write, you appear not to be one of them. You further ask "who are you?" Someone with more than a grain of compassion and pity, but these are attributes which you cannot fathom.

    If you don't like the English guy selling cheap kitchen equipment at 3 a.m., why not turn off the television? Or is it that you don't know how to? Enjoy your overpriced ($300) bottle of Chateau Giscours and, although it must pain you, add more the European economy.

    Complain about this comment

  • 270. At 07:12am on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #260, bethpa:

    Real Frigid

    If money is not moved from the wealthy to the less wealthy by the government or some other means (charity..religious views etc) you will end up with a weakened society. The smart and powerful will take from the weak..and the weak are often children.

    Some of these wealthy people are people who do not have normal feelings for other people. They lack compassion and empathy. ( It might be useful to succeed as a businessman to lack feelings for others) And you will get what we are seeing in the US more and more and what occurs in Third world nations. A few wealthy people and a large poor class...with bad health and a bad education. The poor are then a drag on the economics of a society.

    ---

    Read carefully your own words Beth, are they not the recipe of Tyranny? You justify violence (taking the property of "wealthy" people) in order to satisfy the whims of government. And, in generalizing a class as lacking compassion and empathy, you demean them, and justify your acts of violence against them. Now, truly, the issue of poverty and indigence is a problem with which the citizens, in a just society, need to resolve. But, by choosing the force of law, you violate the rights of some people and enforce their compassion.

    Does not a successful business create employment? Now, don't misunderstand me, businesses need to be regulated to prevent abuses of people, each other, and the environment. I, like Jefferson, believe that individual freedoms are more important than corporate freedoms.

    I'm sure the US Constitution's Bill of Rights does not guarantee a person food, shelter, clothing, health care, and education. However, it does say, "No person shall... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

    If your government takes your property, but offers you nothing in return, does that not violate the 5th amendment?

    Complain about this comment

  • 271. At 07:23am on 24 Aug 2008, bethpa wrote:

    collegefootballfan


    Since I don't know when a human being becomes a human being I should not decide for another person whether to have an abortion or not. That is their decision and I might give my views but it is the other person's decision. That is a part of free will. Each of us has to make our own decisions. A government should not be a part of that kind of decision.


    So in your belief in the sanctity of human life you oppose the death penalty? Since humans make errors and since innocent people might be convicted there should be no death penalty?..or more extreme... A government does not have the right to take the life of a citizen, once that citizen is stopped from committing a crime...because life should be given and taken by God, not by man.

    Jefferson's religious beliefs were the basis for his writing that "all men are created equal" "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"and that then became the basis for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    All human beings everywhere have certain rights ..just because they are human.

    I don't expect you to agree with any of this...but I hope you do see that liberals can have value systems that are based upon religious beliefs..that may not be like yours ..but still based in a religious belief and a personal relationship with God. Each of us has free will and we each have to make up our own decisions about what we believe and how we live our lives.

    Complain about this comment

  • 272. At 07:38am on 24 Aug 2008, CloudSng wrote:

    It is shocking that Obama didn't pick Hillary Clinton given that she had more support than him (if not delegates). Together they would have won. By not picking Hilary, he has lost the working class vote and a much of the female vote. By picking Biden he was not just rejecting Hillary but telling her supporters that they do not matter.

    The "change" is just lie -- at best rhetoric from a man who will say anything at all to get people to vote for him. Biden has nothing to offer -- certainly not "change".

    Complain about this comment

  • 273. At 08:03am on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    Collegefootballfan,

    "Thou shalt not kill" is pretty basic.

    Check out also Exodus 21:22-25, in terms of blood law regarding the loss of children in the womb. Check out Leviticus 20:2-5, regarding the sacrifice of children (Molech / Baal).

    The Judaic models of feticide, and infanticide is similar to the Code of Hammurabi, Middle Assyrian Laws, and Hittite Laws of the same period. They treated the loss(accidental or purposeful) of a child in the womb the same as outside the womb.

    A rational argument starts with viewing infant death one day before delivery, and one day after delivery. Obviously, the day after is murder, but the day before the child is also viable outside the womb. If viability is the measure, then anyone who loses the ability to care for themselves risks losing their humanity (a coma victim dependent on a respirator, for example.)

    Then, the problem needs to move to discerning the state of "child" somewhere between conception and delivery. I don't know when the soul is born, and I have no way of knowing. A philosophical (ontological) discussion can be had, but not any scientific or "provable" discussion. For those who are religious, therefore, the only rational assumption would be very early in pregnancy to avoid murder.

    For those, not religious, it only depends on the code of morality which is the basis of law. For example, it is often cited that abortion is reasonable for a women when having more children would be a financial burden. That same logic could apply to children who are not yet adults, who lack adult "rights". It is only the morality of the society that determines the nature of what is acceptable.

    Complain about this comment

  • 274. At 08:08am on 24 Aug 2008, bethpa wrote:

    Real Frigid

    There are almost always this group of people who will take over and deny people their basic human rights..this group in the Soviet Union took over the government and taught the people all kinds of nonsense about sharing ..while they stole from the people.

    In the US this group of power hungry people have gotten into the business world and are now unfairly taking again from the average person in the form of no health care and lower wages. By manipulating the news media and by attempting to control the laws of the government with lobbyists and by buying politicians they have taken excessive amounts of power and money in the US. .

    The original founding fathers thought by having a balance of powers in our government ( executive, judiciary and legislature..the three branches of government) they could control this attempt to take over power by a few. The press was supposed to be a way to inform the average person about what was happening but the news is now often a way for businesses to make money . So the news media often pander to what people want to hear and/or they represent the interests of the wealthy that own them

    The US government has not been able to stop this assault from the wealthy and powerful and they now have too much power and they are making bad decisions that are not good for the average Americans.

    The violence you write about has not been from the government but from the corporations who have taken the work of Americans and not paid living wages and expected long work weeks and no health insurance. You seem easily to give everything to the wealthy because they will give you a bad job...as they and their corporations make exorbitant profits.

    The war in Iraq was waged to obtain Iraqi oil so that world wide corporations could continue to use cheap transportation for their goods.With cheap oil they could have merchandise manufactured in low wage nations and transport the merchandise cheaply to sell in high wage nations for good profit margins. Now however oil is too expensive and there will be a shift towards making heavy items closer to the final sale destination.

    Iraq did not succeed in the way the CEOs and their corporate friends had envisioned. Instead the US now is heavily in debt to nations who are our rivals ..like China...

    The US is in a crisis...both economic and political. There were serious concerns about the Bush administration representing the interests of large corporations like the oil companies and using the American military to wage a war for oil to help large corporations maintain their profit margins. There should have been impeachment hearings because that use of the American military would be high treason..

    If you have time read this article...-

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/magazine/17pessimist-t.htm


    ..........
    “Our biggest financiers are China, Russia and the gulf states,” Roubini noted. “These are rivals, not allies.”

    "The United States, Roubini went on, will likely muddle through the crisis but will emerge from it a different nation, with a different place in the world. “Once you run current-account deficits, you depend on the kindness of strangers,” he said, pausing to let out a resigned sigh. “This might be the beginning of the end of the American empire.”



    Anyway its going to be tough for Obama if he is elected president to stand up to these wealthy and powerful few in our own nation. He'll need Biden and anyone else he can get to help him.

    Complain about this comment

  • 275. At 08:14am on 24 Aug 2008, collegefootballfan wrote:

    This is my last post because its late and I am about to go to bed.


    You just said that you didnt believe the government had the right to tell a person whether or not a person can have an abortion yet your turn around and talk about all humans have rights? Hypocritical. This is how liberals get around the issue and help them go to sleep at night. Your values should be based on your religion not the other way around. I am not accusing you of this, but many people base their religion around their views so they can somehow justify it. I do support the death penalty because there are some crimes so hanious (did I spell that right?) that warrants the death penalty. An unborn life however is innocent and committed no crime. The death penalty is mainly to discourage others from committing the same hanious crimes in the future. It is not handed out lightly.

    I suppose you didnt read comment #211 but while I strongly disagree with the wellfare system, I can respect someone's view on that. I cannot, however, respect any views on abortion. Abortion is murder and this is an example of liberals trying to fit this into religious beliefs by saying that a fetus is not a life. A fetus at two months along is more responsive than tree, yet a tree is considered a life. Hypocritical. A California court ruled this pass week that a doctor can not refuse to preform an abortion. Shouldnt a doctor have the right to decide whether or not he will preform it. If he is anything like me, it would be immoral and unGodly. Liberals speek about freedom for all, but then they force doctors to preform procedures against their will. Even if you support abortion it is not a federal decision. The 9th admendment states that all powers not given to the fedral government, nor denied to the states belongs to the states. Abortion is not a power given to the federal government, therefore it should be a state issue. Roe vs. Wade was not only immoral but also constitutional. People need to learn to take responsibility for their actions/mistakes. I believe in the right to choice also. I believe you have the right to chose whether or not you will be responsible enough to take protection beforehand, but at conception you lose that right. The choice has to be made before. I guess we will not agree on this issue because I will not budge on abortion

    Complain about this comment

  • 276. At 08:56am on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #274, bethpa:

    "There are almost always this group of people who will take over and deny people their basic human rights..this group in the Soviet Union took over the government and taught the people all kinds of nonsense about sharing ..while they stole from the people."

    Beth, in order to do this they would need to pass laws, or rule by edict. What you describe is tyranny.

    "In the US this group of power hungry people have gotten into the business world and are now unfairly taking again from the average person in the form of no health care and lower wages. By manipulating the news media and by attempting to control the laws of the government with lobbyists and by buying politicians they have taken excessive amounts of power and money in the US."

    I agree that corporate influence, special interest groups, PAC's and campaign finance problems have transformed the US government away from "of the people, by the people, for the people" -- I also think some of this happened along time ago with part of FDR's new deal, and after the US Civil war with the centralization of power in the federal government. Also, the misinterpretation and abuse of the interstate commerce clause by the Supreme Court to justify Federal intervention into State's affairs (see Wickard v. Filburn).

    "The original founding fathers thought by having a balance of powers in our government (executive, judiciary and legislature...the three branches of government) they could control this attempt to take over power by a few. "

    Mostly it does, but there have been some poor judgments by the US Supreme Court that have given corporation equal standing as citizens, stripped states of local autonomy, and abused and distorted the Constitution to cede more power to Federal control. Now, the Legislature has the power to enact laws clarifying the Constitution, but since they benefit from the deviations they are mum.

    "The press was supposed to be a way to inform the average person about what was happening but the news is now often a way for businesses to make money . So the news media often pander to what people want to hear and/or they represent the interests of the wealthy that own them."

    I believe the press has always been a den of vipers, even in Ben Franklin's day. It was just twisting the propaganda to favor the Revolution.

    "The US government has not been able to stop this assault from the wealthy and powerful and they now have too much power and they are making bad decisions that are not good for the average Americans."

    Actually, I believe there is no difference between "US government" and "wealthy and powerful". This is the problem. The ordinary citizen in America has lost their voice in their government, at the local, State and Federal levels. In fact, it is probable that an international oligarchy calls the shots from behind the scenes, placing these politicians before you to give you a false sense of control.

    "The violence you write about has not been from the government but from the corporations who have taken the work of Americans and not paid living wages and expected long work weeks and no health insurance. You seem easily to give everything to the wealthy because they will give you a bad job...as they and their corporations make exorbitant profits."

    No, that is not it. The nature of capitalism is "survival of the fittest", so that should be no mystery as to its "cruelty". Corporations petition the government to be lax in regulations to allow them the ability to exploit people and the environment, but it is the US government who takes away your money as taxes and gives it away to other people (even those outside the US).

    "The war in Iraq ..."

    That is a topic too difficult to discuss in only the few sentences we have here. There are many linkages, including reaching the state of global peak oil. Also, look at Iran on the map and see who now has influence in the nations around her. Strategically, Iraq and Afghanistan make more sense when viewed in the context of Iran. China's economic boon, Russian Oil, North Sea Oil, France's nuclear plants all factor into the geopolitics of the middle east. The drama playing out in Georgia is less about South Ossetia and more about a pipeline and a port.

    Complain about this comment

  • 277. At 10:36am on 24 Aug 2008, AndyB1957 wrote:

    Calling for Russia to be expelled from the G8 is sensible according to Mr Webb? Is this Mr Webb's view or merely that of his friends at Fox News or similar right-wing sites?

    I look to the BBC for analysis and reporting of decent quality but unfortunately Mr Webb provides neither.

    I used to disagree greatly with points raised on "Letter from America" by Alistair Cooke but could appreciate his knowledge and wit.

    Mr Webb lacks any depth or real journalistic ability I am afraid to say.

    Complain about this comment

  • 278. At 11:22am on 24 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Canard, you are pathetic. That is why you are so funny. You take yourself seriously and you expect me to also. You can't even follow a logical argument. You made a remark about my use of the nasty term "jug-ears" and I showed you I'd gotten it from BBC. Why not criticize BBC if you find it so offensive?

    So what you regard as my personal insults are more offensive to you than the thinly disguised ethnic hatred spewed by others. Perahaps that is because you share their views as well. Their tyrannical minds look for scapegoats to blame for their failure in life, they'd blame anyone but themselves which is the real soruce of their failure. Speaking of which, Chateau Giscours was hardly a $300 bottle of wine. Probably more like $15 when I bought it in 1992 but then you wouldn't know about wine any more than any other topics I've seen you post on I suppose. Now the 90 Latour is a different story. Those are now close to $1000 a bottle. My case probably won't be ready to drink for another 10 to 20 years at which time it may be worth far more. And I have many others as well.

    So because other cultures do not like condoms and their demoncratically elected government does not educate their citizens to the risks they take according to the world's foremost scientists studying AIDS because their political views don't agree with the science, my tax money is supposed to be spent on bailing them out of the consequence of their folly. Then when they get that money, you criticize my government for not having any left to provide free medical treatment for its own people having necessarily diverted other money to defending the nation militarily. I'd point out to you that Congress approves all of the expenditures and taxes. The President only proposes, Congress disposes. We have real democracy in the US with separation and division of power and actual checks and balances. Do you believe in democracy or the world according to Emperor Canard?

    As for "saving the Jews from a terrible fate" you could hardly be distorting history more. With a few notable exceptions, Europeans stood around and did nothing while millions of Jews and other untermenchen were rounded up and murdered on an industrial scale. The only reason Europeans fought the Nazis was because they were attacked themselves. And had it not been for the US recognizing that ultimately it would also be attacked and therefore entered the war, the Nazis would have won. The only Jewish lives that were save were those that hadn't been snuffed out at the time the Allies defeated the Nazis for entirely different reasons than saving them.

    I'm glad this is a printed blog. The sound of English accents is really starting to get on my nerves. I've come to appreciate Southern drawls far more than I used to. I have come to the point where the mere sound of an English accent is two strikes against someone. I'll bet in Scotland it's already three strikes.

    Complain about this comment

  • 279. At 12:01pm on 24 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Frigid,

    "The difference in opinion of what "government" means goes back to the origin of "society". Somewhere between Anarchy (zero laws enforced with "frontier justice"), and slavery (100% taxes, and no rights or freedoms)"
    Again, the one-dimensional "spectrum" metaphor, suitable only for one-dimensional thinkers...
    "Perhaps they want to keep the site clear of sadomasochistic verbal intercourse."
    not on the visible evidence.
    "I can show you as many "hate speech" quotes from so called "liberals". Like, Nancy Giles from CBS, Nina Totenberg from NPR, or Janeane Garofalo, or Al Franken."
    You talk a good game, but why not do what you say you "can" - show us some "liberal" hate speech". Be my guest.

    Beth,
    "I would say the least choice and freedom is with anarchy. A good government should provide choices and establish freedom with law and order and limit the rule of the jungle."
    I have to disagree, and refer us all to the great Tom Paine,
    "SOME writers have so confounded society with government,

    as to leave little or no distinction between them;

    whereas they are not only different, but have different origins.



    Society is produced by our wants, and government by our wickedness;

    the former promotes our happiness positively by uniting our affections,

    the latter negatively by restraining our vices.

    The one encourages intercourse, the other creates distinctions.

    The first is a patron, the last a punisher....



    Government, like dress, is the badge of lost innocence;

    the palaces of kings are built on the ruins of the bowers of paradise.

    For were the impulses of conscience clear, uniform, and irresistibly obeyed,

    man would need no other lawgiver;"

    -- Thomas Paine, On the Origins of Government...1776
    Frigid
    "Check out the Weather Underground Organization, Animal Liberation Front, Earth Liberation Front, The Symbionese Liberation Army, and the UNABomber."
    Your idea of "liberals"???

    Stick-to-football,
    "Remember the hippies (cults) is what started the liberal movement in America."
    Yeah, like the Hell's Angels.
    "drilling in Alaska for oil which would seriously ease the pain at the pumps for families. Life begins at conception and abortion is murder, that really sounds like human rights to me."
    Ah! The human right to drive!

    "Jefferson would be appalled by both the American major parties, were he alive today."
    I have to agree with you there. I'm not too sure he'd be amused or impressed by the quality of the last few hours of mass debating here, though.

    Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
    ed













    Complain about this comment

  • 280. At 12:23pm on 24 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Ed Uglyheart, speaking of one dimensional thinking, how did you deviate from your single minde topic, your hatred of Jews you refer to as Zionists? You didn't work it into your last posting in even one sentence. I expect you to try harder next time. The Volksbund will not be pleased with you if you don't.

    Complain about this comment

  • 281. At 1:54pm on 24 Aug 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

    #119 #134

    Really Gentlemen,

    Lack of knowledge of Magna Carta (1215, 1225 and 1297) displays not only a poor knowledge of British history, but an ignorance of the Constitution and it's histroy and influences.

    It is excusable to lack knwoledge of another countries history, but it is inexcusable to be ignorant of our own.

    Fondest regards,

    Sam

    Complain about this comment

  • 282. At 1:55pm on 24 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 283. At 1:57pm on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #279, Ed Iglehart :

    "Again, the one-dimensional "spectrum" metaphor, suitable only for one-dimensional thinkers..."

    I agree Ed, but I need to consider my audience.

    "You talk a good game, but why not do what you say you "can" - show us some "liberal" hate speech". Be my guest."

    I could try, but the sensors here don't like the ugly reality. Here is some googlefu for you;

    http://patterico.com/2007/03/05/leftist-hate-speech/

    "Your idea of "liberals"???"

    No, my idea of wacko's with a more "liberal" agenda. There are also wacko's with a more "conservative" agenda, but as we already agreed, one dimension is hardly enough.

    In reply to #280, MAII :

    How about we leave the trolling resulting in the usual arguments back in the other topics?

    Complain about this comment

  • 284. At 2:23pm on 24 Aug 2008, DutchNemo wrote:

    collegefootballfan,

    ''Europe blasted Bush for wanting to induct Georgia into NATO a few months ago yet now Europe wants the U.S. do something about Russia. If Georgia was in NATO, Russia would have never invaded.''

    France and Germany, not Europe, opposed admitting Georgia to NATO because they need Russian oil and gas. Do you believe Russia wouldn't have invaded Georgia if Georgia had been admitted to NATO? The United States needs Russia on issues like North Korea and Iran. Russia would have invaded Georgia and America nor Europe could have done anything against it.

    Europe needs America and America needs Europe (see my previous post, post 105). Europe and America are friends and friends must accept they can't always agree. Maybe you should visit Europe or read a book about Europe. Wikipedia is not the right place to learn something about the Grant Old Continent.

    Complain about this comment

  • 285. At 2:23pm on 24 Aug 2008, Clive Hill wrote:

    Several American (I think) posters here refer to morality and its place in government. Personally, I believe morality has no place in government because it belongs to each individual – but that’s a view regarded as strange so I persist…

    Is it moral to allow people to die ? There are arguments here from what are traditionally called right and left which suggest that is not so.

    People are dying all over the world. There is an argument that the spreading of some types of economic method and a kind of cultural robustness will prevent many of these deaths – especially deaths from poverty and disease. The cure for those ills may, therefore, already be spreading.

    What about death from poor governance ? It is referred to many times here pertaining to the USA from traditional right and left. This in references to the death penalty; abortion and weak social provision which results in death.

    Does morality end at the borders of the USA ? I believe this is something Obama will have more of a problem with than McCain. It will surely seem hypocritical for Obama simply to let people die in large numbers anywhere in the world without comment.

    That is what happened in Rwanda – and Bill Clinton acknowledged the moral failure. It is what is happening in Sudan – where the Sudanese used the Olympics as cover to launch an attack on North Darfur. This to open up oilfields for exploration.

    There is another issue which bears directly on this as well. To some extent it has been rehearsed in the Status of Forces agreement in Iraq. US troops are exempt from Iraqi law under certain circumstances.

    This exemption is uncontroversial in that it reflects American forces’ status as saviours in the vast majority of Iraq. It also does not mean US forces are exempt from US law and there have been several courts martial to prove it.

    The interesting thing is that Americans see themselves as subject to American law and the American Constitution wherever they are. They do not hold the same view of citizens of the countries they are visiting. There were several cases in Japan which highlighted this view – politically if not legally.

    The question is where in all of this will Obama and Biden wind up ? Pragmatically – they are, after all, politicians – they will simply go with American political opinion which, like political opinion pretty much everywhere in the world, will be self-serving and nationalistic.

    Surely this will be harder to justify for Obama and Biden. As I said at post #3 – Joe Biden has said he would send American troops into Sudan. That is a moral statement. He is running mate to a candidate who endeavours to set a high moral tone.

    So if they reach the White House – which they certainly should, because of the pendulum above all – what will their international morality be ? An oxymoron as ever ?

    Complain about this comment

  • 286. At 2:42pm on 24 Aug 2008, Candace9839 wrote:

    Re: #267. Joe Biden is not rich, and he is Catholic and appeals to older and working class voters. Hillary dealt herself out of the ticket all on her own, and she and her husband continue to be fabulously wealthy. She would have been a disaster on the ticket, unable to be in any role but the top of the ticket which she lost. Biden knows at his age this is his highest office and will work well as second in command with Obama at the helm.

    Complain about this comment

  • 287. At 2:49pm on 24 Aug 2008, Young-Mr-Grace wrote:

    Re post 280 -
    Commodus, speaking of one dimensional thinking, how did you deviate from your single minded topic, your hatred of Europeans you refer to as less evolved? You didn't work it into your last posting in even one sentence. I expect you to try harder next time. The Amerikanisch Volksbund will not be pleased with you if you don't.

    You're all doing very well !!

    Complain about this comment

  • 288. At 2:50pm on 24 Aug 2008, hms_shannon wrote:

    Common Sense is all you need,
    Yankee doodle dandy.
    If you want a book to read,
    keep a copy handy.

    Thought that common sense would do.
    I was wrong; full-stop.
    Two uprisings I,ve lived through;
    and both have been a flop!...

    Complain about this comment

  • 289. At 3:16pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    "You can't even follow a logical argument. "

    always wrong (mostly erronious,

    you of all people I have ever met(including tweekers on steroids) are the last person who should go on about others logical arguements.


    bring up the argumnet from this site that shows your logic.
    Just one.


    Never happen.

    Complain about this comment

  • 290. At 3:18pm on 24 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:

    202, MAII,

    You're really making me laugh now...

    "...so that people can stay on welfare all their lives because they will not spend their time learning a trade or profession so that they can earn their own way in life."

    The trades aren't doing very well right now, are they. Many construction contractors are going the way of the housing market. And to see where the professions have gone, look to India. So we are left with

    Doctor
    Lawyer
    Sales
    Marketing
    Stock Analyst
    Shovel Operator

    Complain about this comment

  • 291. At 3:20pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    118
    our friend from wales once wrote a lovely piece about wealth , health and helping others.
    About making wealth and giving it away.
    He kindly helped starving kids and said that was truly fulfilling.

    Of course a nasty cranky drunk old guy had to get on his case for not being a meglomanic dictator .

    Complain about this comment

  • 292. At 3:30pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    And where does that crazy emperor get off saying that america will STILL be an english speaking country.

    It isn't now so why would it go that way.
    In England liberal is someone who believes in healthcare etc as a given.

    Civilised society is not one that murders it's own people.

    Health care system(unless you talk to Justin) means a SYSTEM.
    Implying some organisation.

    May, maybe, probably, are not considered definite .

    I will consider is not a promise.

    Fanny is not a bum but something else.
    you most certainly do not say "oh just reach in my fanny pack"

    a fag is a cigarette

    And an Editor edits

    Complain about this comment

  • 293. At 3:31pm on 24 Aug 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    I wonder if anybody is interested in Justin's
    original blog topic?

    Here's a new ad illustrating how the
    McCain camp intends to attack Obama.

    Complain about this comment

  • 294. At 3:38pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    "290. At 3:18pm on 24 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:
    202, MAII,

    You're really making me laugh now...

    "...so that people can stay on welfare all their lives because they will not spend their time learning a trade or profession so that they can earn their own way in life."

    The trades aren't doing very well right now, are they. Many construction contractors are going the way of the housing market. And to see where the professions have gone, look to India. So we are left with

    Doctor
    Lawyer
    Sales
    Marketing
    Stock Analyst
    Shovel Operator"

    BLACKSMITH


    Funny MA would bring this up as someone who slags off blacksmiths so regularly, and doesn't know the difference between a farrier and a blacksmith.
    two different trades both still needed apparently.
    Problem is there are few that know these trades anymore and so lessons are hard to get.
    Welders are on average 56 years old because america pushes all kids to collage but no vocational system.
    or respect.

    next time you'll are on the 5 floor looking over the balcony just think to yourself, did the welder get sufficient penetration or did he get cold lap on those rails.

    And hope the welder did know the difference.

    or better still get them made weld free by your local smithy.



    Complain about this comment

  • 295. At 3:41pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    g n r

    like I always say. hillary lost it. and decided long ago that fate by using the wrong ammunition during the primaries.

    now mc cain only has her words to throw at obama.
    but she is a witch.

    Complain about this comment

  • 296. At 3:41pm on 24 Aug 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    Biden Thoughts

    Pluses:
    Quailified no one doubts his crednetials
    Foriegn policy reputation

    Minus
    Verbal gaffes
    Sound bites, Biden earlier cliamed that Obama was ready and that he would be proud to serve in a McCain administration

    Complain about this comment

  • 297. At 3:43pm on 24 Aug 2008, hms_shannon wrote:

    #288

    Only kidding guys,

    I love the U.S. and its people,including Marcus.

    Complain about this comment

  • 298. At 3:59pm on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #285, chill0 :

    "Does morality end at the borders of the USA?"

    Obviously not. However, such as in Rwanda, when the UN peace keepers fled, what responsibility is it for the world's nations to try to enforce peace? More importantly, if a nation "can" stop a genocide, are they obligated to do so morally? My understanding of the UN charter would view interceding in another nations civil war for mere moral reasons to be illegal. The only justification for conflict in the UN charter is for securing ones national security.

    "Is it moral to allow people to die?" It depends. Death is inevitable, so at some point attempts to prevent death are a useless waste of health care resources. Beth asked a question about the "death penalty", which is again a complicated topic involving the purposes of sentencing (justice for the victims, deterance, protection of society).

    Can a moral society stand by and watch indigents suffer and die? They certainly don't in most European nations, or in the US. They do in some SE Asian and African nations, and even when people try to help they are often rebuffed by governments who fear(sometimes correctly) a hidden agenda.

    Most law requires a moral/ethical framework, this is the intersection of government and society.

    "...Americans see themselves as subject to American law and the American Constitution wherever they are."

    Do you mean their soldiers? There are usually special agreements regarding jurisdictional issues when soldiers are accused of crimes. It depends on where the incident occurs, and whether the soldier is on duty. When Americans join their military they surrender their Constitutional rights for the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

    For a comparison, American forces in the German occupation were governed by the occupational authority until 1955, when the Deutschlandvertrag went into effect.

    "...they will simply go with American political opinion which, like political opinion pretty much everywhere in the world, will be self-serving and nationalistic."

    The Americans are patriotic, but their international behavior is isolationist. The politicians that govern them favor strategic self interest for themselves and their good friends. The definitive psyche of an American is difficult for many in the world to understand. They idolize rebels, and rebellion, yet praise also the noble virtues. They are capable of simulaneously loving James Dean and John Wayne.

    An event like 9/11 only raises their ire and they become single minded in their pursuit of justice, or at least retribution. The politicians in power made political hay with 9/11 and forwarded a preordained agenda while people were filled with rightous fury. So too, the Russians, had an agenda in Georgia and bided their time until justifiable passions would sanction their excursion.

    One could argue that the Iraq war was a means to secure cheaper energy prices for Europe, and to provide the US a military staging ground outside the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Frankly the oil there is too far away to compete with that obtained in the greater Americas (south, central, and north).

    Complain about this comment

  • 299. At 3:59pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    testing

    Complain about this comment

  • 300. At 4:01pm on 24 Aug 2008, bethpa wrote:

    collegefootballfan

    Oh child : ) its impossible not to be hypocritical in the complex world we live in. No philosophical construct made by man will suit every problem. There is the ideal..then the reality.

    All humans have rights is the ideal. But what do we do with someone with Down's syndrome..who has different chromosomal structures? or at what point is someone human or not human? When the Constitution was written blacks were not considered human...Government should change to adjust to new situations and new understandings...

    I think Jefferson was very hypocritical in his dealings with blacks and slavery..but he still was a great man ..albeit imperfect as we all are.

    (heinous)

    I agree that a doctor should be able to refuse to perform an abortion because for that doctor an abortion would be a murder.

    #211 was read..take a look at this article and it will give you an idea of what has been happening with liberals

    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/50009.html

    and you might think of this as Robin Hood..taking from the corrupt rich and giving to the people who work and are not getting fair wages. Most Democrats would be very sympathetic to you and would want to help you get through college. I certainly hope things go well for you. What is your major?
    : )

    This is a quote from the article:

    "Also, Obama promises a dramatically different tax policy, one that would raise taxes on the wealthy, cut taxes for the middle class and offer new "refundable" tax credits to the working poor that would wipe out tax liabilities and deliver anything left over in the form of checks.

    He also wants to tax oil companies and use the money to give checks to the poor to pay for high fuel costs, or anything else."

    Now whether Obama can do it or not is the question. The wealthy are very powerful and will fight his taxing them and using that money to help average Americans. The wealthy have had a great time under Bush's tax cuts.

    And I started life poorer than you and was given scholarships by the government ..and look at me now ...a LIBERAL!!! : )
    I went to school in NY state and if not for Nelson Rockerfeller (..a wealthy Republican and governor of NY) and his funding of state universities... I could not have gone to college...(Thank you Nelson where ever you are..you changed my life and you never knew me but I owe you.)

    Complain about this comment

  • 301. At 4:05pm on 24 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:

    Yes, jacks,

    I have often thought, if you want unskilled people to go to work, you have to train them to do something.

    If you can't back up your views with actions, you are just a bag of hot air.

    Bring back the WPA.

    Complain about this comment

  • 302. At 4:07pm on 24 Aug 2008, bethpa wrote:

    real frigid


    We do agree on this statement from you:

    "Actually, I believe there is no difference between "US government" and "wealthy "and powerful". This is the problem. The ordinary citizen in America has lost their voice in their government, at the local, State and Federal levels. In fact, it is probable that an international oligarchy calls the shots from behind the scenes, placing these politicians before you to give you a false sense of control."

    In survival of the fittest there is a brutality that should be lost with civilization . We should as a society use controls with our government or other societal groups to stop the worst aspects of survival of the fittest and it is our ability to form civilization that has made it possible for us to survive as a species.

    I also agree that we will soon reach peak oil.

    Iran has benefited from the mess in Iraq and the military aggressiveness of the Bush administration is not paying off.

    http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=43647

    POLITICS-US: A Really Bad Couple of Weeks for Pax Americana
    Analysis by Jim Lobe*

    WASHINGTON, Aug 23 (IPS) - Whatever hopes the George W. Bush administration may have had for using its post-9/11 "war on terror'' to impose a new Pax Americana on Eurasia, and particularly in the unruly areas between the Caucasus and the Khyber Pass, appear to have gone up in flames -- in some cases, literally -- over the past two weeks.

    Not only has Russia reasserted its influence in the most emphatic way possible by invading and occupying substantial parts of Georgia after Washington's favourite Caucasian, President Mikhail Saakashvili, launched an ill-fated offensive against secessionist South Ossetians.

    But bloody attacks in Afghanistan, and Pakistan, about 1,000 kms to the east also underlined the seriousness of the Pashtun-dominated Taliban insurgencies in both countries and the threats they pose to their increasingly beleaguered and befuddled U.S.-backed governments. "

    more at the link...

    Complain about this comment

  • 303. At 4:10pm on 24 Aug 2008, bethpa wrote:

    ed

    I've been in societies where the people are naturally obedient to the group ( Germany, Japan... the US South) and that kind of group conformity might even be worse than government restrictions...

    Complain about this comment

  • 304. At 4:13pm on 24 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:

    298. At 3:59pm on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    "The Americans are patriotic, but their international behavior is isolationist."

    Actually, real, I think we are more provincial than isolationist. I met a man in my hometown who told me he had never eaten Chinese food in his life. Now, he was in his 60s, and there is no shortage of Chinese restaurants. The thing is, it was 'alien' to him.

    Complain about this comment

  • 305. At 4:20pm on 24 Aug 2008, bethpa wrote:

    Real Frigid


    "what responsibility is it for the world's nations to try to enforce peace? More importantly, if a nation "can" stop a genocide, are they obligated to do so morally? My understanding of the UN charter would view interceding in another nations civil war for mere moral reasons to be illegal. The only justification for conflict in the UN charter is for securing ones national security."

    The UN has the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and I believe that would give authority to intercede to protect the rights of people who are being oppressed by a corrupt government.

    http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

    "Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

    Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

    Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,"

    short quote...more at the link

    Complain about this comment

  • 306. At 4:20pm on 24 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    G'nR (293),

    If that's the bwst/worst they can do, it's a walkover.

    Or a dance-over?

    ;-)
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 307. At 4:25pm on 24 Aug 2008, MikeIL wrote:

    Famous Plagiarists.com has Joseph Biden listed as the best-known American Politican Plagiarist of our day.

    Wonder why all the media have omitted Biden's history of Plagiarism -- as a politician and as a Syracuse Law Student -- from the news?

    Complain about this comment

  • 308. At 4:27pm on 24 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Beth, Namaste ()

    Good to see you back! Good points, well made. Of course Iran has benefitted financially because of the war-driven price of oil, its major export. The oncoming (or already here) peak has an influence, but sabre-rattling has always spiked the price...

    A wee tutorial on easy links is available by going "blue".

    Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
    ed


    Complain about this comment

  • 309. At 4:34pm on 24 Aug 2008, MikeIL wrote:

    To #163:

    You wrote:

    "the fact is that if the United States wants to remain the world's leader it has to own up to the responsibilities that come along with that role. If the United States can't or won't, the EU, Japan, and BRIC would be happy to take the role."

    Please Please Please -- take over. We have never wanted the job. I guess that's what the rest of the world does not understand about the US. We don't want to be the World's policeman -- but have found that we must because no one else in the rest of the world has the capability and compassion to do it but US.

    While you are all at it -- While we don't mind it as much, the US does give more to other countries in the form of government aid and private charitable donations then the rest of the world combined. How about kicking in a little more in that area too?

    Complain about this comment

  • 310. At 4:38pm on 24 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    MikeIl (307)

    On Plagiarism, the full story:
    Media outlets reported allegations Biden plagiarized Kinnock, but not that he had previously credited him


    Summary: The Los Angeles Times reported that when Sen. Joe Biden ran for president in 1987, he "was accused of plagiarism when he did not credit Neil Kinnock, then leader of the British Labor Party, for much of his stump speech." The New York Times and the Associated Press made similar reports. But they did not note that Biden reportedly had credited Kinnock, as The Washington Post reported at the time: "John Quinlan, a reporter for the Sioux City Journal, said his notes showed Biden said he was quoting Kinnock when he used the same passage in a speech Aug. 14. Stories in The [New York] Times, The Boston Globe and other newspapers also said Biden had used the rhetoric and credited Kinnock for it.""
    The truth is out there....

    ;-)
    ed


    Complain about this comment

  • 311. At 4:41pm on 24 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:

    There's a lot of talk about oil and war here. But there's one factor that some may not be aware of.

    The pentagon wrote a report, some 10 or 15 years ago, that posited two things.

    1.) Oil is crucial to US security. Therefore, control of the middle east is key.

    2.) The US military can dominate the middle east if it has three strong, permanent bases there.

    I've been watching this play out for a number of years. I think the game is still in progress.
    .......................

    The whole energy issue is a political mess.

    Complain about this comment

  • 312. At 4:44pm on 24 Aug 2008, bethpa wrote:

    Thank you Ed ...I'll try to use the html tags the next time I come here : )

    Complain about this comment

  • 313. At 4:50pm on 24 Aug 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    Bethpa is uttering thoughts that undermine the indoctrinated American ideology.

    Implicit is the idea that citizenship should convey certain inalienable rights.

    However, the "pursuit of happiness" of unrestricted captialism always results in crass abuses

    that must be corrected by a swing of the pendulum in the other direction.

    _________________________

    Do citizens have a right to police protection?

    Do citizens have a right to fire protection?

    Do citizens have a right to public education?

    Do citizens have a right to public medical care?

    Complain about this comment

  • 314. At 4:57pm on 24 Aug 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #298

    Isolationist? Many term can be used to describe U.S foriegn policy but that is not one that comes to mid.

    The U.S does more to help nations hurt by disaster than any other nation in the world.

    We are also the moral counter to the blatant corruption racism and anti semitism of the U.N.

    Many of the nations that complain aboiut the unilateralism of the U.S also do the least fore thier neighbors

    Uapologetic for how much the U.S has done for the world

    Complain about this comment

  • 315. At 5:08pm on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #307, MikeIL:

    Actually, I think the Balducci-Scruggs affair will make more political hay than the old news of Biden reusing some great Kinnock material.

    The Mess In Mississippi: The Joe Biden Connection

    Complain about this comment

  • 316. At 5:12pm on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #305, bethpa:

    Yes, Beth, but action is sanctioned through the UNSC, not unilaterally without it. If Russia is morally outraged at the conditions within South Ossetia, then the only UN approved action would come through discussions and resolutions by the UNSC.

    Complain about this comment

  • 317. At 5:14pm on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #314, MagicKirin:

    The government is not isolationist. The American people tend to be isolationists, and eschew getting involved in world affairs (or even traveling much).

    Complain about this comment

  • 318. At 5:16pm on 24 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:

    At 4:50pm on 24 Aug 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    "However, the "pursuit of happiness" of unrestricted captialism always results in crass abuses"

    Yes, any good idea can be taken to a ludicrous extreme.

    But, I don't feel indoctrinated.

    Complain about this comment

  • 319. At 5:25pm on 24 Aug 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #278. MarcusAureliusII: Your rants become increasingly tiresome. I had never criticicsed your use of the phrase 'jug-ears' but said that common decency forbids us to us it in reference to a presidential candidate - but then vulgarity seems to be one of your flawed atttributes . Perhaps you had been drinking too much of your French plonk when you typed. Frankly, and I feel sure I speak for everyone else, I am not interested in the contents of your cellar - you have not the slightest idea of what my choice in wine would be nor anything else about my personal life. Gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins, along with greed and pride, all of which your posts demonstrate. There might also be a case for envy - when someone has a phobia about another nation, it's just as likely to be jealousy than rational thought.

    You forget that I too an an American taxpayer, and I am delighted that America has seen the advantages of assisting Africa with its medical problems. You appear not to have taken onboard the fact that so many AIDS sufferers there have acquired the disease because of no fault or action on their part. Concerning "democratically elected governments" on that continent, consider how many are not - but their people still deserve to live without the consequences of AIDS.

    Concerning "saving Jews from a terrible fate" - have you never heard of Irena Sendlerowa (Sendler), Besa Muslims, Oskar Schindler, Raoul Wallenberg or Miep Gies? These and many more showed compassion and courage: they cared. From what you have written, you appear to care about no-one but yourself. If there is such a thing as karma, then you're in for a very rough time at some stage in the future. "The only reason Europeans fought the Nazis was because they were attacked themselves." In case it has escaped you, Germany invaded Poland and subsequently France, Britain and the British Empire (Dominions) declared war in accordance with previous treaties - none of them had been attacked.

    And by the way - the United States is a Republic, not a Democracy.

    Complain about this comment

  • 320. At 5:30pm on 24 Aug 2008, MagicKirin wrote:

    ref #317

    I not sure where you get that idea. Most people I know have traveled internationally. And when I compare the Average American's knowledge of world events compared to a European or some from the Middle East (with the language exception) the Ameriucan will be more knowledgible and far more nuanced.

    Complain about this comment

  • 321. At 5:34pm on 24 Aug 2008, MikeIL wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 322. At 5:36pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    no guarantees except that you will not be allowed to starve, live on the street, or die for lack of medical care.


    wow you must be living with Mc cain to be so ignorant.

    pathetic as usual.

    so you say there are no homeless.

    Complain about this comment

  • 323. At 5:37pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    or that if you try to live on the streets you will be shot.

    Go away you prat

    Complain about this comment

  • 324. At 5:39pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    as a tax payer you are gullible. as I am.
    tax laws were not ratified.
    there are still a couple of states that need to ratify the tax in to law and no one who has challanged the tax code as not being legal has ended up in jail.

    so we can all not pay taxes.
    but then how will we have the money to be all zionistic about life


    plop plop

    Complain about this comment

  • 325. At 5:44pm on 24 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:

    319 - You honor him, to devote so many words to him.

    320 - I can only assume that you travel in rarefied air.

    321 - Somebody kick this record player, it's stuck.

    Complain about this comment

  • 326. At 5:45pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    316 russia did go to the UN but as always america(like with Israeli issues) feels there is no way it can ever critisise it's stranger allies.
    just like it can take no critique of itself.
    or its ability to pick good allies.

    Complain about this comment

  • 327. At 5:48pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    mike ill

    but mc cain gave his interrogaters information that led to the death of 26 army soldiers.
    he also gave up plans for future opperations in vietnam. and has been passing secrts to mossad for years.

    Complain about this comment

  • 328. At 5:50pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    1946kid.

    give it here. i'll stick it under the power hammer. that will fix it
    them.

    Complain about this comment

  • 329. At 5:54pm on 24 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Obama on being raised fatherless.

    "My mother obviously was the dominant influence in my life, and I had a stepfather and a grandfather who both participated in raising me and were good men who did good things for me. But if I think about how I have been able to navigate some pretty tricky situations in my life, it has to do with the fact that I had to learn to trust my own judgment; I had to learn to fight for what I wanted. I actually think that maybe having an absent father meant also that you have a different relationship with your mother"
    I must declare an interest.

    I was raised largely fatherless and, on reflection, consider it to have had many beneficial aspects. I, too, had several male surrogates, mostly without their or my awareness, but I didn't have to discover thatmy father was a jerk (or a giant), and was thus saved the need to hate/forgive/live-up-to him. I've often quipped that the greatest good fortune a parent can have is to realise how much of a jerk they are before their kids work it out. My son retorts that I don't know the half of it. ;-)

    I recommend reading the full linked piece (it's quite short)

    Salaam, etc.
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 330. At 6:01pm on 24 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:

    322. At 5:36pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    "so you say there are no homeless"

    Once, there were no 'homeless.' The expression didn't even exist. There were a few bums, but not the thousands that we see today.

    These people existed, all right, but they were institutionalized. As I recall, it was in the early 70s that they were all turned out in the street, and the institutions shut down. That's when we started calling them 'homeless.'

    Today, as many as 5,000 live in the caverns of Grand Central Station. Some should be institutionalized. Some just needed health insurance. Others just needed a job.

    With just a portion of the money spent on oil wars, we could turn most of these people into marketing directors.

    Complain about this comment

  • 331. At 6:01pm on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #320, MagicKirin:

    ref #317

    I not sure where you get that idea. Most people I know have traveled internationally. And when I compare the Average American's knowledge of world events compared to a European or some from the Middle East (with the language exception) the American will be more knowledgeable and far more nuanced.

    ---

    About 27% of Americans have passports.

    Scrambling to Get Hold of a Passport - NYT

    Complain about this comment

  • 332. At 6:03pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    301
    part of the problem is the disproportionate pay scales in the US.
    where a degree will get higher pay even though there may be no connection between the degree and the job.
    Local university has been trying to start a blacksmith program for years but insists on a person with a degree.

    Most of the smiths I know may have degrees in other fields but it is the knowledge of smithing is required.
    And that is not dependent upon the degree.

    Vocational schools and modern apprentice schemes are non existent in the US.

    So now if the locals need a restoration job or something made traditionally , they have to come speak to the limey.

    Who will say "what at that price ,I'd be better off making frogs"

    Complain about this comment

  • 333. At 6:08pm on 24 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Digging the dirt on Biden

    Not a very rich vein for scandal:

    "Interestingly Biden is not personally wealthy so even though he's built a nice life for himself and his family, Biden's presence will still allow Obama to attack Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., as a multi-housed elitist. (Imagine if Mitt Romney gets added to the ticket!)

    In fact, Biden is the senator with the lowest net worth, and ranks 576th out of 596 Members of the House and Senate in terms of personal wealth."
    And, in terms of campaign finance, there's a wee bit from lobbyists and lawyers and bankers, but in the general run of politicians, he looks like Mr Clean. he certainly hasn't been lining his own pockets.

    Obama/Biden for 2008!
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 334. At 6:19pm on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    Jack,

    From an ABC news source, "Once my condition had stabilized, my interrogators resumed their work. Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I did not cooperate. Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant. Pressed for more useful information, I gave the names of the Green Bay Packers offensive line, and said they were members of my squadron. When asked to identify future targets, I simply recited the names of a number of North Vietnamese cities that had already been bombed."

    I couldn't find any source that indicated McCain's coerced information led to any casualties. There are many hard core allegations that McCain failed to abide by the strict restrictions of the Military Code of Conduct, but the NVA were obviously also not abiding by the international conventions on the treatment of POW's and torture.

    I would submit that most of us in the same circumstances would have either acted the same, or have been killed and never returned. Death may have been more noble, but I think his actions were the wiser.

    Have you ever endured torture yourself?

    Complain about this comment

  • 335. At 6:23pm on 24 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Cool One, I went to your list of "leftist" hate speech

    Rumsfeld? Farrakhan? Senator Byrd (R.I.P.)?...Leftists? LOL!

    Salaam, etc.
    ed

    Just goes to show the poverty of seeing things in one-dimension.

    Complain about this comment

  • 336. At 6:34pm on 24 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:


    Caroline Kennedy Speaks On Veep Vetting Process


    Nice lady

    xx
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 337. At 6:36pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    cooleo
    I also heard he gave out radio frequencies of that the air force was using which led to the shooting down of other planes.
    and gave dates of missions in the future to bomb n vietnam.

    one time he apparently helped hold another down for water boarding(recently he objected , but not now,again.)


    only torture i have put up with is reading the bbc site discussions taken over by the right of america with no understanding of how much like nazi's they look.

    Complain about this comment

  • 338. At 6:39pm on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    IN reply to #335, Ed Iglehart:

    Cool One, I went to your list of "leftist" hate speech

    Rumsfeld? Farrakhan? Senator Byrd (R.I.P.)?...Leftists? LOL!


    Just goes to show the poverty of seeing things in one-dimension.

    -----

    Nice try. First, it was liberal, not leftist. Second, I told you I did a quick googlefu, not a thorough search for every scrap of liberal hate speech. I too would omit some from the list as well, because the do not fit "liberal" or are at least not mainstream.

    Just goes to show the poverty of intellectual honesty.

    Complain about this comment

  • 339. At 6:40pm on 24 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Biden isn't biding his time

    "One of the poorest members of the Senate, Biden lamented how people like him sit at the kitchen table at night worrying about how to get by in tough economic times. "That's not a worry John McCain has to worry about. It's a pretty hard experience. He will have to figure out which of the seven kitchen tables to sit at.""
    ;-)#
    ed


    Complain about this comment

  • 340. At 6:43pm on 24 Aug 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    "But I don't feel indoctrinated".

    Of course not. If you did, it would not have worked!

    There is the "public discourse" of the "secular religion" promulogated and repeated by "the ideological state apparatus".

    One growing up and living in the midst of such will be convinced that his acquired belief is, in fact, not belief but reality.

    That is why being jolted by other, opposing, views can be enlightening.

    Those raised in a binary (Manicaean) fundamentalist environment will reject and an attempt to destroy non-conforming facts and people.

    Complain about this comment

  • 341. At 6:50pm on 24 Aug 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #330. 1946kid: "5,000 live in the caverns of Grand Central Station." According to the Los Angeles Times, we have the dubious honour of having the largest number of homeless persons in any American metropolitan area: 73,000.

    Complain about this comment

  • 342. At 6:53pm on 24 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 343. At 7:00pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    330
    it is sad the waste on oil wars ,like you say.
    some get negative about solving problems. environment etc.
    I generally think a' Wholistic approach is best. and that involves trying to solve more than one problem at a time in one place .like Iraq.

    At the moment all the oppertunities are there/here.
    solve economy- go green-sort oil-sorts Middle east-etc etc

    but not in the linear way that can be expressed here. more of a ven diagram with lots of overlapping .

    none of them including WAR.

    biggest waste is not thinking that paying people to solve problems rather than create them.

    if we all go on about performance pay we should also consider if this should be applied to the legislature.


    The key is the environment.
    Age does come into play here.
    not always the oldest guys and gals around . But for me the boomers have one hell of a lot to answer for.

    And I wish they would admit that and get on with sorting it out.
    Like Biden.

    Complain about this comment

  • 344. At 7:06pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    ed I find it funny that people think there was some reason she should have been vetted.
    then they also say she said(love that) that she did not want to be vetted unless she was going to be in the running.

    It is a joke to say she could have helped as VP.

    the fact that we even discuss her at this stage after all she has done and then not done is sad.

    She has done so much harm to the democrats .

    She should be told to , did you know foreign office is known as FO.

    Complain about this comment

  • 345. At 7:13pm on 24 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    For Magic

    " “He has been preoccupied with escaping the shadow of his father and establishing his own image and identity in the eyes of others,” read a psychiatric evaluation in his medical files. “He feels his experiences and performance as a P.O.W. have finally permitted this to happen.”

    The ordeal also gave a more sympathetic cast to his carousing. As Robert Timberg wrote in “John McCain: An American Odyssey,” “What is true is that a number of P.O.W.’s, in those first few years after their release, often acted erratically, their lives pockmarked by drastic mood swings and uncharacteristic behavior before achieving a more mellow equilibrium.” Timberg said Hemingway’s line that people were stronger in the broken places was not always right.

    So it’s hard to believe that John McCain is now in danger of exceeding his credit limit on the equivalent of an American Express black card. His campaign is cheapening his greatest strength — and making a mockery of his already dubious claim that he’s reticent to talk about his P.O.W. experience — by flashing the P.O.W. card to rebut any criticism, no matter how unrelated. The captivity is already amply displayed in posters and TV advertisements.

    The Rev. Kirbyjon Caldwell, the pastor who married Jenna Bush and who is part of a new Christian-based political action committee supporting Obama, recently criticized the joke McCain made at the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally encouraging Cindy to enter the topless Miss Buffalo Chip contest. The McCain spokesman Brian Rogers brought out the bottomless excuse, responding with asperity that McCain’s character had been “tested and forged in ways few can fathom.”

    When the Obama crowd was miffed to learn that McCain was in a motorcade rather than in a “cone of silence” while Obama was being questioned by Rick Warren, Nicolle Wallace of the McCain camp retorted, “The insinuation from the Obama campaign that John McCain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous.”

    When Obama chaffed McCain for forgetting how many houses he owns, Rogers huffed, “This is a guy who lived in one house for five and a half years — in prison.”"
    ;-)
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 346. At 7:13pm on 24 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:

    340. At 6:43pm on 24 Aug 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    "But I don't feel indoctrinated".

    Of course not. If you did, it would not have worked!
    ................................

    Isn't this a bit like saying,

    YOU: There is an invisible elephant in the room.
    ME: I don't see any elephants in this room.
    YOU: That proves he's invisible!
    ............................

    There isn't indoctrination going on here on a national scale. There are some sub-groups who practice it. Occasionally one of these sub-groups comes to national prominence. The general population refers to them as 'extremists.' Usually, they have their day, and then go home. Sometimes their day is longer than it ought to be.

    Complain about this comment

  • 347. At 7:16pm on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #337, jacksforge:

    Do you have more evidence than hearsay?

    The most damning I found was testimony by Colonel Earl Hopper, from Vietnam Vets against John McCain. Their site is pretty much a hatchet job. The documents of transcripts they have show obvious signs of "interview for propaganda benefit". Meaning, the words were under duress and fear for his life.

    I would submit that if you haven't been the victim of torture, then you may be speaking from the wrong orifice. It's great to be an arm chair general and pontificate on what that other guy should have done. I would give the honor to the guy that actually risked his life.

    No evidence McCain was a traitor

    Complain about this comment

  • 348. At 7:23pm on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #340, Xie_Ming:

    Why do your posts always sound like communist propaganda?

    "Ideology... is indispensable in any society if men are to be formed, transformed and equipped to respond to the demands of their conditions of existence. "

    Ring any bells?

    Maybe you might expound on "Repressive State Apparatuses" next?

    Complain about this comment

  • 349. At 7:23pm on 24 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Familiar logo?
    ;-)
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 350. At 7:28pm on 24 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:

    I have to say that the actions of any soldier, when in a combat environment, or in a POW camp, cannot and should not be judged by us, who have never walked in his shoes. If any judgment is needed, this I leave to their peers.

    I don't have to agree with the man's political views. But he has earned the right not to be judged by any of us who were not there.

    Complain about this comment

  • 351. At 7:31pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    cooleo it is true that he held others down for water boarding. it is true that he gave details of frequencies and times of missions as best he could.
    a hero, or a spy, someone with so little competence it is hard to tell.


    but only a few support the accusation that he was helping the enemy

    SO HE DID.

    You support my post with your link
    thankyou

    Complain about this comment

  • 352. At 7:33pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 353. At 7:40pm on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #351, jacksforge:

    "You support my post with your link"

    Actually not Jack. It shows John's critics to be crackpots who make unsubstantiated accusations. Maybe you might do a little research (as I did) yourself to discover the truth, rather than continue to spread the lies of others. I'm not a McCain supporter. I just look for truth myself in actual evidence.

    Complain about this comment

  • 354. At 7:44pm on 24 Aug 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    The phrase, in quotes, is: "ideological state apparatus". A "scholar" would recognize the source at once.

    The tactic of the ad hominem smear is so habitual as to suggest that it may be a sub-cultural characteristic.

    I wonder whether "swiftboating" has entered the American lexicon as a verb?

    ____________________________

    For those sincere people who doubt that they are indoctrinated:

    Are you familiar with the American school system?

    With the vetting of textbooks?

    With the American Legion checking the activities of teachers?

    With the attacks on public school teachers by ideologues?

    [In all totalitarianisms and authoritarian systems,

    the young are a special target,

    for they can be formed to accept the indoctrinated ideology as fact, rather than as belief.]

    Complain about this comment

  • 355. At 7:49pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 356. At 7:51pm on 24 Aug 2008, smilingSpongeMuffin wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 357. At 7:54pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    difference fridgid is that unlike others here I have only played this game for a jest and to make the point .
    not every time for month on end.

    as a leftie
    and I don't believe it,
    don't kill the messenger.

    Complain about this comment

  • 358. At 7:57pm on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #354, Xie_Ming:

    Sure, I just returned from my standard Sunday indoctrination session. I was brainwashed from the book of John today.

    Then, I turned on the TV, and I began to be indoctrinated by the "ideological state apparatus" called network news.

    Later on I'm meeting up with some comrades, and we will indoctrinate some white balls, and force them into holes in the ground.

    Complain about this comment

  • 359. At 7:57pm on 24 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:

    354. At 7:44pm on 24 Aug 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    "A "scholar" would recognize the source at once."

    Some people might see this remark as elitist. Not me, of course.

    "Are you familiar with the American school system?"

    Uh, more than some people...

    "For those sincere people who doubt that they are indoctrinated:"

    OK. Is everyone indoctrinated? If not, then who is, and who isn't?

    Complain about this comment

  • 360. At 8:03pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    ah so they can print some letters and not others concerning the same subject lies.

    well guess what' I'll save those posts to add at random ad nausem just to annoy the underworked mods

    Complain about this comment

  • 361. At 8:04pm on 24 Aug 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    Xie_Ming - couldn't you take the time (and very little effort) to reference those posts to which you refer in your responses? Each has a number and it would greatly assist if you would use them in order to make sense of your replies to others.

    The number sign (hashmark in Britspeak) is so simple: # Please use it!

    Complain about this comment

  • 362. At 8:05pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    349 And I have had"Big chips , Big chips, we love big Chips big chips"

    for days now and couldn't quite get why.
    Thank again ed




    Complain about this comment

  • 363. At 8:05pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 364. At 8:11pm on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #359, 1946kid:

    "A 'scholar' would recognize the source at once."

    Look up Louis Pierre Althusser. XM is exhibiting his indoctrination into the markedly French flavor of Marxist philosophies. Althusser lost favor with the 'elite' though after he strangled his wife.

    A Texan once told me, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS".

    Complain about this comment

  • 365. At 8:17pm on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    293, guns.

    No.

    Complain about this comment

  • 366. At 8:19pm on 24 Aug 2008, nahummer wrote:

    While I was disappointed with the choice, it's easy to see why they chose him. His attack dog style to fight the dirty fights, the perception of his experience on the foreign policy side and to pander to the religious vote. Whether or not Russia's aggression tipped the scale in favour of the choice, who knows? Something needs to be done to counter the McBush resurgence or we're gonna get 4 more years of the same. If we could just stop everything now and decide the president...
    www.theendisalwaysnear.blogspot.com

    Complain about this comment

  • 367. At 8:23pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 368. At 8:24pm on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    311, 1946.

    Maybe if they had stopped trying to dominate the Middle East there would have been no terrorism.

    Idiots.

    Complain about this comment

  • 369. At 8:26pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    interesting the mods are offended by the reason to lie but not the lies.

    Complain about this comment

  • 370. At 8:26pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 371. At 8:32pm on 24 Aug 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    #359

    The general level of intelligence of our posters is sufficent for them to recognize ad-hominem smears and "swiftboating" without assistance from me.

    One unfortunate claimed to be a "scholar".
    It was therefore necessary to repeat the correct phrase again and within quotes again for such scholarship to be exercised.

    Now someone above says "Ok, we are all indoctrinated". That, in principle, is true.

    I suppose there are two important qualifications:

    (1) Is one exposed to views which reasonably seem to contradict the indoctrination?

    (2) Does one evaluate such views or categorically reject them:
    a) assuming that truth is binary.
    b) any source of a contrary view is personally corrupt and unworthy?

    Complain about this comment

  • 372. At 8:35pm on 24 Aug 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #364 "A Texan once told me, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS." I've heard it said about (motor) bikes - "if you can't run it, chrome it." I guess Biden's the chrome.

    Complain about this comment

  • 373. At 8:38pm on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #366, nahummer:

    I keep hearing the "McCain = McBush" crap, but from what I've read, Obama is closer to Reaganism, and Biden is closer to a Neocon.

    McCain has pandered so far to the middle, that many on the right have disowned him.

    The political season of eyes wide shut, and earplugs safely affixed is here. Let's be sure to shut our minds now, lest we actually begin to doubt our entrenched positions.

    Contra Expectations -- Obama isn't Jimmy Carter, he's Ronald Reagan
    The Bush-Biden Doctrine
    McCain strategy courts middle

    Complain about this comment

  • 374. At 8:40pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    “I am a black criminal and "


    these are J mc cains words but the mods think I am not allowed to print them.


    I think it reasonable when finding a quote from a presidential hopeful that contains what on the surface looks like racist phrases, to question that.


    "No evidence McCain was a traitor"link provided in 347

    Complain about this comment

  • 375. At 8:41pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:




    about the big chips guy.

    If you want that sort of talk to stop. remember that through out this campaign people have continually come on here and promoted lies about Obama , straight up lies, and tried to imply that his name alone should disquallify him from the presidency.

    Complain about this comment

  • 376. At 8:41pm on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    348, Real.

    Xie and Magic are the same, but at opposite ends of the spectrum. They are both blind zealots. It is impossible to get through to them.

    Complain about this comment

  • 377. At 8:42pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 378. At 8:42pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    And by right I include Hillary.

    She thought she could control which lies were out. she could act like a republican.

    And here is a line for beth.
    the reason they can / she can get away with it is the American People.


    Complain about this comment

  • 379. At 8:43pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    dc is it you complaining because I suggest hillary is a republican?

    Complain about this comment

  • 380. At 8:44pm on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #371, Xie_Ming:

    "One unfortunate claimed to be a 'scholar'."

    I thought you were above ad-hominem attacks.

    Why would you feel that asking a valid question when spouting Marxist doctrine is ad-hominem? Is it the word "propaganda" to which you object?

    Complain about this comment

  • 381. At 8:46pm on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    350, 1946.

    But are we allowed to jusge him as a presidential candidate?

    I do not see that his personal experiences per se, whether heroic or not, fit him for high elective office. Would a woman with history of abuse rate special consideration as a candidate?

    Complain about this comment

  • 382. At 8:46pm on 24 Aug 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

    I thought that the McCain campaign would
    be the first bunch to lose money underestimating
    the intelligence of the American people, but
    I was wrong.

    I guess I will just have to hold my nose from
    now on.

    Complain about this comment

  • 383. At 8:47pm on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #374, jacksforge:

    Right Jack. John explained that during torture sessions they were forced to write confessions, but he laced his with obvious words that the NVA wouldn't catch but that Americans would see through to know he was forced to write them.

    Complain about this comment

  • 384. At 8:54pm on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    Just think. We have three more months of electoral blather. There has already been three months too much.

    I am going back into hibernation. Wake me up election day. Or not.

    Complain about this comment

  • 385. At 8:56pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 386. At 9:00pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    383 i get your point but really black criminal is a phrase used by a guy on this blog a while back when he was refering to black people.
    is it not possible that is the same with mc shame.?

    And you miss the point totally.

    in part because the Mods keep striking the bit that might help you understand where my letter comes from(apart from Eugene)

    Complain about this comment

  • 387. At 9:01pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 388. At 9:02pm on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #381, allmymarbles:

    Being shot down and suffering torture as a POW is not admirable per se, but the discussion was more about the amount of information JM gave his NVA captors and whether that made the POW experience a negative factor. So rather than "hero", the discussion was is he a "traitor" or a "collaborator".

    Being the victim of a horrendous event is not a qualification that anyone would seek.

    Complain about this comment

  • 389. At 9:02pm on 24 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:

    381. At 8:46pm on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    "But are we allowed to jusge him as a presidential candidate?"

    Without question! Personally, he is not my cup of tea.

    "Same you can count on!"

    Complain about this comment

  • 390. At 9:07pm on 24 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    I can hardly wait to hear what Mrs. O has to say tomorrow night at the convention. She has quite a big mouth. I wonder how many votes it will cost her husband especially when the TV pundits start quizzing her about why Hillary was not chosen as O's running mate. It will be interesting to see just what the Clintons have to say about O. Meanwhile the Republican attack ads have just begun. Biden's and the Clinton's own words about O's unsuitability to be President will be played back over and over again. BTW, O has plenty of problems with his own house hunting story.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article3499430.ece

    O is a change? Same old politics as usual, same old crooked politicians, same old boy network. Only difference...this one is still wet behind the ears.

    Complain about this comment

  • 391. At 9:11pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    well I think it is total rubbish that he is a traitor, or did anything out of order considering his position.

    Complain about this comment

  • 392. At 9:11pm on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    388, Real.

    I think if you are under severe torture you may behave in a way not natural to you. So I think that words like "collaborator" or "traitor," or even "hero," do not apply.

    Complain about this comment

  • 393. At 9:11pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    but then I think it rubbish that obama be likened to a terrorist and slandered.

    Complain about this comment

  • 394. At 9:12pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 395. At 9:13pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 396. At 9:13pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 397. At 9:13pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 398. At 9:14pm on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #386, jacksforge:

    I assumed you meant this part, "At one point, McCain broke down and signed a confession. But Timberg, the biographer, said McCain deliberately used misspellings, grammatical errors and Communist jargon to show he was writing under duress: "I am a black criminal and I have performed the deeds of an air pirate. I almost died, and the Vietnamese people saved my life..."

    Complain about this comment

  • 399. At 9:19pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    388 the point is not about service record or anything it is about TRUTH in these posts. .It is about the lies that have been printed about Obama for a year now.
    it is about stupid letters about Obama's wife from the one that thinks he is smart.
    It is not about

    " the discussion was more about the amount of information JM gave his NVA captors and whether that made the POW experience a negative factor. "

    Complain about this comment

  • 400. At 9:19pm on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    390, staphylococcus aureus.

    You still don't get it! Hillary is finished. Today! Tomorrow! And 2012! Featuring her as a speaker is just a sop.

    You may think Obama's treatment of Clinton shows weakness. Think again. It is a shrewd move.

    Complain about this comment

  • 401. At 9:24pm on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #392, allmymarbles:

    Oh, I agree. The #1 thought on my mind would be to give them as little as possible, #2 would be to return home to my wife and children. #3 would be food, and care.

    In reply to #393, jacksforge:

    I agree Jack, the stuff like the Hussein crap is border line hate mongering. But, I try to ignore responding to those who's minds are so obviously small, closed or twisted.

    Complain about this comment

  • 402. At 9:28pm on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    398, Real.

    It sounds to me like his "confession" was dictated to him. If he were to have written his own, any "mistakes" would not have been the mistakes of someonw who was not a native speaker.

    Complain about this comment

  • 403. At 9:30pm on 24 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

    In reply to #399, jacksforge:

    "... from the one that thinks he is smart"

    Sounds like a real head case. I try not to let trolls get my goat (I tend to ignore certain posters here, they just make me mad).

    Complain about this comment

  • 404. At 9:38pm on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    403, Real.

    "I try not to let trolls get my goat (I tend to ignore certain posters here, they just make me mad.)"

    That's just what they want you to do. But why give up the joy of insulting them? Without staphylococcus aureus this blog would lose its manic interludes.

    Complain about this comment

  • 405. At 9:38pm on 24 Aug 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #400. allmymarbles: "You still don't get it! Hillary is finished." Many commentators have said the Convention will be all about her - after all, the former President is speaking, there is to be a roll-call formally putting her name in nomination and a large contingent of pro-Hillary delegates - including both Florida and Michigan. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that despite the careful orchestration, there could be a last minute upset since she has not released her delegates. I'm not saying that it's a probability, but surprises have happened before - Dewey was "elected", RFK was shot - who knows what may happen this coming week!

    Complain about this comment

  • 406. At 9:43pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    fridged.

    I was not even aware that Mccain had had any accusations against him for being a traitor, when I started that post.
    I was merly putting something out there in the same manner as has happened to Obama from day one.

    He has got very far considering how hard he has had to fight such allegations against him.

    How do you get people to listen if they are still saying" is he muslim?" as opposed to listening.

    Mc Cain has taken advantage (recently,hillary did it for him earlier) of these lies and innuendo . By picking the attacks words and ads he has he has taken advantage of this.
    (like Hillary).

    A christian may be greatly offended by being called a muslim, as a pow can be offended by being called a snitch.



    Complain about this comment

  • 407. At 9:46pm on 24 Aug 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    #318 #371

    That so many Americans use this BBC site attests to the desire of most to obtain broader views.

    Within the USA, depends on donations more than advertising and thus is free of the corruption so prevalent in the US media. Incidentally, one can get a free daily news summary with links (csmonitor).


    Getting one's news and views from diverse sources is an important goal (and one that authoritarians seek to block or discredit).

    Complain about this comment

  • 408. At 9:48pm on 24 Aug 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    It was necessary to delete the names:

    Christian Science Monitor

    Frankfurter newspaper

    and a paper in Israel

    for #407 to get through.

    Complain about this comment

  • 409. At 9:48pm on 24 Aug 2008, cdmlad wrote:

    I guess if the US electorate wants another four years of the current White House foreign and economic policies they will vote for McCain. The policy includes the devastating skill to focus elections on completely irrelevant matters as they learned from Rove. It would not surprise me at all if McCain wins; after all the US electorate chose a second term for Bush despite his obvious incompetence and dishonesty. The problem we have is an electorate which is simply not prepared to think. After all, there are many Americans, many, who actually believe that the entire universe was created in six days and believe that this should be taught in High School biology classes! I wonder how long it will take us to learn that the foundation of a successful country is hard work, thrift, intelligence and honesty.

    Complain about this comment

  • 410. At 9:49pm on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    As concerns this campaign, I prefer to check the gamblers rather than the polls. According to the WSJ Obama's chances have improved since taking on Biden.

    Complain about this comment

  • 411. At 9:50pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 412. At 9:52pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 413. At 9:53pm on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    405, David.

    There is always the unexpected. But don't you think that Obama has been in touch with his delegates and knows what they are going to do? If there were any chance of her stealing the nomination, do you think he would have adopted this course?

    Complain about this comment

  • 414. At 9:55pm on 24 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    I'm off to bang a frog.
    later, sorry to offend some here.
    just trying to make the point lies are not good political points.

    Complain about this comment

  • 415. At 9:57pm on 24 Aug 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    Assuming that our posters are rational and no fully indoctrinated, how does one decide which of the following should be paid for privately or out of the general tax revenues?

    Do citizens have a right to police protection?

    Do citizens have a right to fire protection?

    Do citizens have a right to public education?

    Do citizens have a right to public medical care?

    what rationale promotes a distinction?

    Complain about this comment

  • 416. At 10:07pm on 24 Aug 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    #409 #359 #371

    The point you raise comes from the fundamentalist and obedient authoritarian mind-set:

    (1) all is black or white, true or false. There can be no shades of grey.

    "We haven't got any nuances in Texas".

    (2) Anyone expressing a different view must be denounced as a Devil (or equivalent) and eliminated.

    The greatest evil for fundamentalism is not atheism, but syncretism- which admits of compromise.

    [Do we see that at play on this Board?]

    Complain about this comment

  • 417. At 10:22pm on 24 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Xie_Ming

    "The greatest evil for fundamentalism is not atheism, but syncretism- which admits of compromise.

    [Do we see that at play on this Board?]"

    Not from me. No compromise with red devils. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The first step in compromise with evil is the hardest, then the rest become easier all the time until you are lost.



    Complain about this comment

  • 418. At 10:25pm on 24 Aug 2008, MarcusTribet wrote:

    To MarcusAureliusII and anyone else who may be concerned, please note that the thoughts I have expressed in Comment 251 are mine alone.

    MarcusAureliusII expressed concern, in Comment 253, that I may be a troll attempting to impersonate him. Please be assured that this is not the case.

    I have had my user name - MarcusTribet - for several months, and have used it to post comments on other parts of the BBC website. So I used it to post here, without realising that in doing so I may have caused offence to one of the blog's "regulars" (and if I have caused offence, I apologise).

    Since MarcusAureliusII clearly was here first, and since he posts here regularly and I do not, I will respect his position and refrain from making further posts in the comments section of this blog (or if I do I will set up a new account with a different user name).

    All that having been said, I would be very interested in any reaction that anyone has to the substance of the thoughts I have set out in Comment 251.

    Complain about this comment

  • 419. At 10:42pm on 24 Aug 2008, Candace9839 wrote:

    Re:#293 McCain is trying to solicit Clinton supporters who may wish to cut off their noses to spite their faces. Obama requested the delegates from Michigan and Florida be seated with full votes because it will not make a difference; he won the nomination.
    Denver delegates
    It also appears that Obama has secured more popular support since adding Biden to the ticket.
    Biden gain

    Complain about this comment

  • 420. At 10:59pm on 24 Aug 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #413 allmymarbles: "If there were any chance of her stealing the nomination, do you think he would have adopted this course?" I think it must have been done with a great deal of pressure from the Clinton camp and he may have had to accept that there was the very slightest chance that perhaps things might not go as planned. But the odds of course are against it and no doubt he is relying on that. Nevertheless, IF she were to receive the nomination, I don't think it be called "stealing" it - it would be what the convention wanted. Perhaps all this adds to the drama of the occasion and precipitates even more interest, to see if he really will be the Nominee. A photo-finish is often more exciting than the obvious winner.

    Complain about this comment

  • 421. At 11:08pm on 24 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    MarcusTribet

    Please feel free to continue using that monker here. Someone posted under MarcusAureliusIII recently and I had to ask to have it removed. This is clearly not the same.

    Complain about this comment

  • 422. At 11:15pm on 24 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Marcus Tribet, Namaste ()

    1.) To be accused as a troll by a troll is no dishonour.
    2.) You're wrong about Biden being an 'insider', rather more an experienced 'old hand'. Note his rank in personal assets.

    I think he's an excellent choice, but we'll see, won't we.

    Salaam, etc.
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 423. At 11:21pm on 24 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    Marcus Tribet,

    "I have had my user name - MarcusTribet - for several months, and have used it to post comments on other parts of the BBC website."
    How come you've got no "track record?

    ;-)
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 424. At 11:22pm on 24 Aug 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    #409

    The obedient evangelicals will be a factor in this election, but there is some hope that many are considering a return to the teachings of their Saviour, rather than following the same manipulation as four years ago.

    Such congregations contain about five percent of individuals who are involved not out of considerations of faith, but of seeking personal advantage and power over others. One may judge whether such individuals are evident here.

    The first defense is to become aware of other views. Given the media situation within the USA, getting on the free daily mailing list of the Christian Science Monitor (csmonitor) is a good way to get started.

    These blogs might offer such an opportunity, but the political "swiftboating" is impeding the examination of principles and ideas.

    Complain about this comment

  • 425. At 11:33pm on 24 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:

    420. At 10:59pm on 24 Aug 2008, David_Cunard wrote:
    ..................

    While it is theoretically possible that the convention would go against the will of the people, it is extremely unlikely.

    Remember that many of our rears are still sensitive to 2000. Nobody in their right mind wants another 'mess-up.'

    Complain about this comment

  • 426. At 11:48pm on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    418, staphylococcus aureus.

    Don't try to fool us staphy baby.

    Complain about this comment

  • 427. At 11:50pm on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    420, David.

    Let's look at a practical reason for her not "walking away" with the nomination. Money. She doesn't have any and isn't likely to get any.

    Complain about this comment

  • 428. At 11:52pm on 24 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    421, staphylococcus aureus.

    Why are you talking to yourself? Don't you have any friends? (Stupid question.)

    Complain about this comment

  • 429. At 11:57pm on 24 Aug 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    #425. 1946kid "the will of the people" Spare me from that old chestnut; the Convention is not designed to reflect "the will of the people" but rather the will of the Delegates. Super-delegates were created in order to resolve some of the perceived problems of former years. Had Mrs Clinton pursued her quest all the way to Denver, I believe there could have been the very real possibility of a multiple roll-call and a different outcome to what is presently expected. The Electoral College does not represent "the will of the people" either, so the Convention is in good company! A change in the candidate might very well reflect the current the will of the people, but presumably we shall never know.

    Complain about this comment

  • 430. At 00:02am on 25 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:

    424. At 11:22pm on 24 Aug 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    "The obedient evangelicals will be a factor in this election"

    Maybe yes, maybe no. Many of them feel that the Rep candidate is not worthy of their support, and have vowed not to vote.

    "One may judge whether such individuals are evident here."

    XM, they are not here. If they were, you would know it right away.

    "getting on the free daily mailing list of the Christian Science Monitor (csmonitor) is a good way to get started."

    This is scary. These are the people who let their loved ones die, so as to avoid the medical profession. Am I mistaken about this?

    "These blogs might offer such an opportunity, but the political "swiftboating" is impeding the examination of principles and ideas."

    I don't see that happening here.

    For the most part, this is a group of people who wish to exchange ideas in a civil manner. Of course, there are always exceptions.

    Complain about this comment

  • 431. At 00:15am on 25 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:

    429. At 11:57pm on 24 Aug 2008, David_Cunard wrote:

    Ha ha ha! Admittedly, anything is possible. If that weren't so, we wouldn't have an election. They would just announce the results!

    Complain about this comment

  • 432. At 00:21am on 25 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    429, David.

    Clinton could not have continued on to Denver, not because she didn't have popular support, but because Washington didn't want her (or Bubba). Come to think of it, maybe she did not have the support we thought she had, since it did not translate into money.

    She actually would not have made as good a showing as she did if Obama had campaigned enthusiastically in the last primaries. As it was he figured he had already won so he put his attention elsewhere.

    What most people do not realize is that America is not a democracy, but a republic. Why? The people do not elect the president; the electors do.

    Complain about this comment

  • 433. At 00:25am on 25 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    430, 1946.

    There is no point getting all het up about the evangelicals. They are only a factor in the Deep South and Obama isn't going to get those states anyway. He made a pitiful attempt to win the religious right-wing and only succeeded in antagonizing his core supporters.

    Complain about this comment

  • 434. At 00:43am on 25 Aug 2008, Candace9839 wrote:

    Clinton plans to release her delegates on Wednesday
    Welease Bwian!

    Complain about this comment

  • 435. At 00:48am on 25 Aug 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    #430

    The Christian Science Monitor is a world-recognized newspaper. Its editorial staff is NOT composed of Christian Science practicioners.

    Take a look and find out: csmonitor.com

    My point is that, in the USA, it is the only major news source (apart from PBS) that is NOT funded by advertising.

    I have been getting their daily bulletins for some months now and have been very impressed- and you can well believe that I am NOT one of their faith!

    For those who read German, the faz.com is a great paper.

    In Israel, H_A_R_E_T_Z is a good paper, but one should be aware that their Hebrew and English versions sometimes differ importantly.

    Complain about this comment

  • 436. At 01:01am on 25 Aug 2008, SaintDominick wrote:

    Ref 251

    I don't think picking Biden as his VP is an admission by Obama that he is not ready to be President. It is, however, an acknowledgement that he does have weaknesses, such as political inexperience and his failure to connect with blue collar workers. Bear in mind that any of the presumptive VP nominees would have been more experienced than Obama; therefore, the fact that he chose a person more experienced than he is is hardly a recognition that he is not ready to be President. It is also important to remember that it is precisely his lack of "Washington experience" that is so appealing to many voters.
    What remains to be seen is whether or not Biden has the skills and appeal to attract some of the voters that still have serious doubts about Obama's proposals and his ability to lead. Frankly, I doubt Biden will influence the opinion of dissaffected Clinton supporters, but he may make inroads with blue collar workers, seniors, and some Independents.
    Obama must change the tone of his discourse and focus his message on his roots, the middle class, and the fiscal and economic mess we are in. If the campaign remains a referendum on Obama, he is history.

    Complain about this comment

  • 437. At 01:43am on 25 Aug 2008, David Cunard wrote:

    "431. 1946kid "They would just announce the results!" It might yet come to that - taking a poll comes to much the same thing and famously (although the precise date does not come to mind) a presidential result was announced by the networks before West Coast voters had finished voting. Today they are more circumspect and wait until all polling places have closed, but that is a matter of self control. An overhaul of the way that results are published would be to the nation's benefit.

    #432. allmymarbles - It's something which will debated in the future - the public is fickle and the wind might well have blown her way. With regard to voters - see my last line at #319!

    Complain about this comment

  • 438. At 02:01am on 25 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    434, Candace.

    I am vindicated. This is exactly what I have been saying. If she did not release her delegates two things would have happened: (1) She would have experienced the humiliation of a second defeat (and probably by a greater margin), and (2) She would have sown dissention that would have rebounded on her and would have hurt the party.

    Complain about this comment

  • 439. At 02:22am on 25 Aug 2008, WAHLEEEEE wrote:

    This blogger is just another Right Wing Shill. Your the reason why the country will soon be dead. Idiots who believe this garbage so ignore the Republican destruction of the American dream. America say good bye to the great country you knew and hello to the police state corporation. Thank the corporate run media and all the shills too afraid to give up their paycheck in exchange for telling the truth when you get there.

    Complain about this comment

  • 440. At 02:52am on 25 Aug 2008, MarcusTribet wrote:

    Ref 436

    I take your point (and if you don't mind my saying, I like the reasoned way you make it).

    I think your last paragraph is spot on, but inevitably Presidential elections do become referenda on the candidates. The policies are important, but so is the character of the individual we're electing.

    My worry about Obama is that we have little evidence as to his character, and for a man who wants to be President of the United States, his resume is very thin. That's not to say he couldn't become a fantastic candidate in, say, 8 or 12 years' time, but he isn't yet (though party nominees who fail tend not to get another chance).

    The past 8 years have pretty much conclusively demonstrated that it's dangerous to have a President who's not up to the job. In my view, we shouldn't take the risk of electing someone who may look as if he might be, but hasn't yet convincingly shown that he is.

    So as tempting as it is to buy into the excitement surrounding the Obama candidacy (which I admit is compelling), if I'm honest with myself in thinking about what's best for the country, I can't do so.


    BTW, MarcusAureliusII - thank you for your good grace regarding my name. I didn't really want to go through the rigmarole of changing it.

    Complain about this comment

  • 441. At 03:58am on 25 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    440, Tribet.

    We never know who is going to be a good president until he is president. Who ever expected Harry Truman, a failed haberdasher and machine politician from Missouri, to be great?

    Yet Truman had the vision to create the Marshall Plan (and the good sense to fire the war hero MacArthur).

    Complain about this comment

  • 442. At 04:05am on 25 Aug 2008, Grrrlie wrote:

    It boggles the mind: some of the same folks who got upset at Hilrod for her "misspeaking" and exaggerations about her own experience, when what she had been was a First Lady [sic] NOT a policy-maker during Bill's terms in office - are seriously suggesting that CAROLYN KENNEDY should have been Obama's VP running mate? Once again, doing a lot of high-level charity work and having professional training and education DO NOT make a public figure into a SEASONED political candidate.

    Obama is a duly-elected Senator from Illinois. Carolyn is a family member of a politican dynasty. Apples and Oranges - END OF STORY.

    Complain about this comment

  • 443. At 04:34am on 25 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    442, Grrr.

    How they ever let Clinton get away with claiming her husband's experience as her own I will never know. As an elected official Obama has much more experience than she. And as for Carolyn Kennedy, well, that is too ridiculous to consider.

    Complain about this comment

  • 444. At 05:56am on 25 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    440

    By the way, staph. aureus, you are not fooling me.

    Complain about this comment

  • 445. At 06:01am on 25 Aug 2008, MarcusTribet wrote:

    Re: 441

    Yes, I've been thinking about Truman as well.

    Not only was he a failed haberdasher, but he went into various other business ventures that also did not fare so well.

    He did, however, serve as an officer - and in a command position in combat - in WWI. During his time in local politics, he was a very effective administrator, and had a certain amount of executive authority for implementing various local infrastructure projects.

    When Truman was elected to the Senate, though, he was initially derided as an inexperienced yokel who was in the pocket of the Prendergast machine. He overcame that by (i) showing an enormous capacity for hard work, and (ii) more or less inventing and heading up a commission that investigated government spending on military contracts and ended up saving the taxpayer some serious dough.

    Even with that resume, he was considered marginally qualified when he took over the Presidency.

    I am not aware that Obama has had any significant experience in commerce (whether failing or otherwise), executive reponsibility for actually carrying out any sort of government project, military experience (as an officer or otherwise), or any substantial accomplishments in the US Senate (where he has only served half a term and, like McCain, has an extremely poor attendance record).

    So - with all due respect - I can't really be persuaded to vote for Obama on the basis that although he lacks even the minimal experience Truman had on taking over the job, he just might turn out to be as good a President as Truman (who, I agree, was a pretty good President).

    As I wrote earlier, this time around I think voters should insist on being well-convinced as to both the character and experience of the candidate they elect.

    Complain about this comment

  • 446. At 06:05am on 25 Aug 2008, DavidD wrote:

    The choice of Bliden seems remarkably similar to the Kennedy/Johnson ticket, where a young senator selected a solid, older and more experienced running mate to reassure voters.
    As for Georgia, hasn't anyone wondered if, just prior to the Democratic primary and a few months before GB leaves office, the Bush administration might have suggested to Saakashvili that it would be a good time to act against the breakaway states whilst he still had friends in the White House. Or is that just another stupid conspiricy theory?

    Complain about this comment

  • 447. At 06:31am on 25 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    445, s. aureus.

    In the beginning of a compaign the candidates tend to be more or less honest about where they stand on issures. As the campaign ripens (and rots) they say just about anything that they think will get them a vote. So after the early days I don't pay any attention to them.

    I have my priorities. The most important to me is to get out of this war and not start new ones. I also want a candidate who is suited to foreign affairs (Obama is multicultural). On top of that, if the candidate can distance himself (insofar as is possible) from lobbyists and special interest groups that is a plus.

    This is how Obama spoke in the early days before he got religion and started doing stupid things to get the right wing under his wing.

    I choose to vote for Obama, not because he is the best of all possible candidates, but because is the only one of the two choices who suits my political attitudes. In one of these posts I even said that I did not like Obama as a person. But, then, I don't have to. This is serious business, not a popularity contest.

    Complain about this comment

  • 448. At 07:43am on 25 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    331, Real.

    This is one time I don't agree with you. I do not see Americans, as a whole, as sophisticated. This may not be true of our friends but, then, we surround ourselves with people similar to ourselves.

    Complain about this comment

  • 449. At 2:40pm on 25 Aug 2008, bethpa wrote:

    Yes Americans are being indoctrinated...

    And the majority understand very little of the world outside of America.

    I'm in Canada now and tv news here is very different..Firstly there is more open criticism of the Bush policies and there is more international news on Canadian tv. On the talk shows people are not allowed to talk over one another ( Canadians will stop the Americans who come on and try to talk over their opponent) so the listener can clearly hear the opposing views.

    You can ask almost any Canadian with just a hs degree who Maher Arar is and what happened to him..but you can ask some Americans with PhD s from ivy league schools and they won't know what you are talking about.

    In general I think most Americans know nothing about the innocent people who were picked up by the US government and submitted to torture...and I believe some of these innocent people have died.

    If Americans are unable to criticize America then they will be unable to make the changes that are needed to keep America a strong nation working for good in the world.



    John McCain

    If the Democratic nominee for president had spent time in a prisoner of war camp there would be tv ads and info on the internet about the Manchurian candidate..

    and when McCain was running for the Republican nomination in the past...there were Republicans who attacked him because they said the years of torture in a prisoner of war camp had made him unfit to be president because it had affected his psychological stability.

    Imo being a prisoner of war does not make one a better candidate for president..but it is something that indicates he has a strong personality...but I also wonder how those 5 years as a POW affected him psychologically.

    Complain about this comment

  • 450. At 3:35pm on 25 Aug 2008, cynic555 wrote:

    Biden a necessary antidote?

    Maybe - but it sure makes you wonder whether "change" is a high priority.

    Biden is an intelligent guy who has has critical knowledge that would help any Candidate ... but he is a consummate Insider and his selection pretty much proves that Obama's message of change is nothing other than political rhetoric.

    Complain about this comment

  • 451. At 3:52pm on 25 Aug 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    Ed (#422), I agree that Biden is an exc ellent choice, but think that Chet Edwards would have been better demographically, because of the "southern" factor. Democrats have needed a southern connection to win the presidency. Kennedy barely won, and needed Johnson's strong connections in the south. Carter and Clinton were moderate southerners themselves. Gore, from a border southern state almost won. All of the northern Democratic tickets lost outright.

    Delaware was a slave state, but I don't think it really counts as a southern state. Delaware and Maryland stayed in the Union, and thereby left the south, in my opinion.

    Of course the demographics of the country change every year, and this year, as always, there are new factors. Maybe it won't matter.

    Complain about this comment

  • 452. At 4:07pm on 25 Aug 2008, SONICBOOMER wrote:

    These attacks on Europe are quite amusing, aside from the fact that any kind of truth have no part in them, they do say rather a lot about those who indulge in this.

    What's behind it?
    Well ignorance, wilful or otherwise for sure, but beyond this?
    It came to me while watching Stanley Kubrick's classic Cold War satire, Dr Strangelove.

    The character of General Ripper, him who launches an unauthorised atomic attack by his B-52 unit.
    Explaining why, he reveals a paranoia about 'red plots' to put flouride in water, thus affecting some of his 'functions' in the 'act of love', or so he says.

    So his own problems are not really his at all, in his mind, it's all a plot by those Commies.

    Ditto maybe, with certain of those who have a hatred (or fear) of foreigners, on here.
    Whatever it is that ails you, personal, or business, whatever, maybe seek help rather than channel this into blaming 'the other'.

    (That probably also explains the fat ex drug addict, Limbaugh, who so wants to go back to a time when African Americans were referred to as 'boy'. He has to articulate this in a roundabout way these days-because of the damn Liberals no doubt, which must upset him, in a manner perhaps similar to sexual fustration).

    Complain about this comment

  • 453. At 4:14pm on 25 Aug 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    "A consummate insider" is eactly what is needed in a VP and President of the Senate!

    Complain about this comment

  • 454. At 4:37pm on 25 Aug 2008, MikeIL wrote:

    To #310....


    Obamaniacs are quick to defend Biden's plagiarizing of a Liberal UK politician -- but also completely ignore the fact that Biden was guilty of Plagiarism at Syracuse's Law School.

    Also-- why is it only the Republicans remmber Bidn saying that Obama was not ready to be president and the White House is not aolace for 'On the job training"?

    Why is it the Obamniacs have forgotten that Biden has said he thinks John McCain is better prepared tobe president than Obama?

    Guess those mean-old nasty Republicans will have to remind the Democrats what Biden has said about Obama -- and John McCain...

    Hey Look. They already did it!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDVUPqoowf8

    Complain about this comment

  • 455. At 5:03pm on 25 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:

    Great thread, (mostly) great group!

    I was in High School, barely lucid, when JFK was in office, and no student of politics. Still, I could see the effect this man had on the country. He brought the country together as one in a way that I have never seen since. You really had to see it happen to appreciate it. There was the feeling that anything was possible.

    I could be wrong, but I think that Obama has the potential to do this same thing. I wonder if his wife speaks French.

    Complain about this comment

  • 456. At 5:44pm on 25 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    455, 1946.

    I first took note of Lady Bird Johnson when she changed the White House menu from French to English. She could not understand why the first house of the land should have its menu in a foreign language.

    Complain about this comment

  • 457. At 5:53pm on 25 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    MikeIL (454 in response to 310),

    "Obamaniacs are quick to defend Biden's plagiarizing of a Liberal UK politician"
    But Was it plagiarism? - did you read the link provided?
    "Why is it the Obamniacs have forgotten that Biden has said he thinks John McCain is better prepared tobe president than Obama?"
    Context, dear boy. He "has said" (in the context of a competitive primary) that he thought Obama wasn't ready yet. I reckon he thinks differently now.

    McCain is more ready for a quiet retirement home than for the White House. His time, if it ever existed, was in 2002, but he flubbed it. Now the signs of mental deterioration are obvious for anyone to see.

    Sorry, but true.

    Salaam, etc.
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 458. At 6:03pm on 25 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:

    456, I was actually was thinking about Jackie Kennedy. She spoke fluent French, and was beloved of the French people. America never looked so cosmopolitan as then.

    Complain about this comment

  • 459. At 6:08pm on 25 Aug 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    The whole "plagiarism" controversy has been thoroughly discussed and even documented in The New York Times:

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE3DB143FF93BA2575AC0A961948260

    Clearly, Obama has decided that this is unimportant. I agree. Americans do not expect their leaders to be saints. Although there are limits to tolerable misbehavior, this doesn't approach the limits. People who focus on this do so because of their inability to make arguments on substantive matters.

    Complain about this comment

  • 460. At 6:39pm on 25 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    458, 1946.

    I was never a Jackie fan, nor a JFK fan. She was venal and he consorted with mobsters. He was implicated in the death of Diem and was trying to get Castro killed. Great guy! So she spoke French. So what.

    Complain about this comment

  • 461. At 6:42pm on 25 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    458, 1946.

    And the current theory is that mobsters killed him after Bobby double-crossed them. I guess JFK felt he was safe from vendetta. Great guy!

    Complain about this comment

  • 462. At 6:45pm on 25 Aug 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    Jacqueline Bouvier (aka Kennedy, aka Onassis) spoke French for a good reason.

    It was not that the daughter of Bouvier wished to enlarge her horizons, rather, her spending.

    It is true that the American public was inspired by the image of "Camelot".

    The reality was that they lay on the White House floor, cutting out press clippings.

    The whole scenario was a public relations trimuph- like the PT 109 fiasco.

    Complain about this comment

  • 463. At 7:00pm on 25 Aug 2008, Roberto Carlos Alvarez-Galloso wrote:

    Dear Justin Webb:

    My congratulations on your article for the BBC News. I do not agree with you that Biden would be a necessary antidote. The problems facing the USA are deeper and cannot be resolved by the current candidates from the Republicans and Democrats.

    The BBC [as well as other Western Media] would best be served by reporting on other candidates such as the Libertarian Party Ticket of Barr and Root. After all, the Libertarian Party had their convention and chose Barr and Root in free party elections. The governing elite chose their candidates ahead of the convention which means that the convention is more like a coronation.

    The USA must open its political process to the alternative political parties such as the Libertarians or Greens. Instead, we have the Republicans and Democrats using Ballot Access Laws [like the ones used in Venezuela and Zimbabwe] to prevent the emergence of alternative voices to what has become a society that silences real dissent.

    The alternative would be the end of the USA in 100 years if there is no political opening toward alternative parties such as the Libertarians and Greens.

    Complain about this comment

  • 464. At 7:02pm on 25 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:

    460 - You had to be there. The press tended to stay out of people's private lives - we all did - and there was far less showering in dirt than there is today. There was a general feeling that we all had a right to privacy. It was a different world.

    Frankly, we were all better off during the Cold War than we are today. Ha!

    Complain about this comment

  • 465. At 7:36pm on 25 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

    462, Xie.

    Add to that that JFK never won the election. Nixon did. Daley put in the fix in Chicago.

    We have had some pretty bad presidents, haven't we? Truman where are you?

    Complain about this comment

  • 466. At 7:59pm on 25 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

    And now, for something completely different....

    ;-)#
    ed

    Complain about this comment

  • 467. At 8:23pm on 25 Aug 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    The allegation in post #463 that ballot access rules in the US unfairly exclude minority parties is nonsense. Since the independent candidacies of McCarthy in 1976 and Anderson in 1980, and various associated lawsuits, the ballots have been reasonably open to those of minor parties and no party. In 1976, when I lived in Washington State, we had 12 candidates for president on our ballot!

    The reason that Greens and (especially) Libertarians do poorly in American politics is simply that they represent a tiny fraction of the electorate.

    Complain about this comment

  • 468. At 8:36pm on 25 Aug 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    Here's some more information on the status of one of our better-known minor parties, the Libertarians:

    http://www.lp.org/ballot-access

    It appears that they are on at least 40 state ballots this year (out of 51, including the District of Columbia), and they will probably be on most of the rest. They will nevertheless be a footnote in the election results.

    Complain about this comment

  • 469. At 8:41pm on 25 Aug 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    The tax system is also structured against other political parties.

    If you are political, your organization (in theory), cannot have its contributions exempt.

    Now one SBC church in the Augusta area was sending out computerized messages for particular candidates, but somehow, the IRS did not pay any attention to the complaints, etc.

    Complain about this comment

  • 470. At 8:52pm on 25 Aug 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    This is an example of what some minor parties contribute to the American political discourse these days:

    http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/08/american-independent-party-wants-mccain-off-california-ballot/

    By the way, I have voted for a few independent candidates myself, so I don't object to minor party and independent candidates in principle.

    Complain about this comment

  • 471. At 8:52pm on 25 Aug 2008, MikeIL wrote:

    To # 457 and 459

    Ed Iglehard and Gary Hill

    Thank you ever so much for proving my point by continuing to ignore Biden's Law School plagiarism.

    Classic!

    Complain about this comment

  • 472. At 9:10pm on 25 Aug 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    #471, ignore it? I posted a link to a report of it!

    Complain about this comment

  • 473. At 11:23pm on 25 Aug 2008, 1946kid wrote:

    Looks like we're about finished here. We've beat this topic to death, and a number of others, too. Thanks Justin, for hosting it, and thanks to your moderators for shoveling it along. I have enjoyed the company of (most) all here. I hope we meet again!

    I'm out of here.

    Complain about this comment

  • 474. At 6:11pm on 26 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:

    464

    well big chips will have us there as soon as possible,GW leading the way(probably in cahoots with Vlad himself after all it is in both thier interests ,and chips, to get back to the cold war.

    Complain about this comment

  • 475. At 03:31am on 26 Sep 2008, bayleyco wrote:

    Eagleton?

    Complain about this comment

  • 476. At 05:01am on 25 Dec 2008, dennisjunior1 wrote:

    Justin:
    Biden, was a necessary antidote to the Obama presidential ticket!

    Complain about this comment

View these comments in RSS

BBC iD

Sign in

BBC navigation

BBC © 2014 The BBC is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.

This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.