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The Deal

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James Reynolds | 08:56 UK time, Tuesday, 25 November 2008

You won't find it written down anywhere. The government would deny that it exists. But it's one of the first things that you learn about when you get to China. Everyone here understands it. And it helps to explain why the Communist Party has been able to stay in power.

It's The Deal - sometimes known as The Bargain or the Pact.

The Deal is an unspoken agreement between the Chinese government and its people. It was reached in the aftermath of the crushing of the Tiananmen Square student protests in 1989. It goes like this: the people leave the politics to the government; in return the government makes the people rich.

A crude way of looking at it is that the Communist Party has simply bought off its people with money and jobs. But there's more to it than that. For more than a century, until the late 1970s, China lived in almost constant chaos: a collapsing empire, foreign invasion and occupation, civil war, famine (any Chinese person over 35 can still remember some of those years). Many people here want a break from the anarchy they once knew. So, a more accurate way of seeing The Deal is this: everyone has agreed to leave behind years of chaos by focusing all of their efforts on the economy. Getting rich feels better than being hungry and anarchic.

For years, The Deal has governed how life works in China. Today's students haven't protested like their predecessors a generation ago partly because there have always been enough jobs for them when they graduate (and partly because they know that demonstrations end badly). Workers and farmers haven't risen up in mass revolt because the Party's given them the chance to escape from poverty. In other words, if you keep quiet and put your faith in the system, you can get a good life.

In recent years, there have been thousands of small-scale protests. But these demonstrations (or "incidents" as the government calls them) have been about localised issues (eg officials in a certain village have stolen money, or migrant workers on a specific project haven't been paid). Until now, there's been no one single issue for people to protest about.

Migrant workers rest on a Beijing street on Sunday Febuary 27, 2000. China Daily newspaper reported that last year only 22 million out of the 70 million unemployed rural laborers who went to cities found work. Chinese leaders worried that frequent protestBut now, the world's financial crisis has hit China. As I wrote last week, many Chinese companies which export goods to the West have had to shut down. Migrant workers who left their villages to get jobs are now having to go back home to nothing. We've been getting word of more and more protests in different parts of the country. The government admits that the unemployment situation is "grim."

If hundreds of millions of farmers and migrant workers no longer feel that the government can give them a better life, the government runs into trouble.

Here's the thought that may keep China's leaders awake at night: No Jobs, No Deal.

Comments

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  • 1. At 09:40am on 25 Nov 2008, andrian007 wrote:

    "The Deal" doesn't just apply to the Chinese people, it also applies to other nations like Cuba and Russia. The concept of "Prosperity out of democracy" is a western concept and is unfortunately under-appreciated in many parts of the world.

    Like it or not, it is in our nature as humans to think about ourselves first before anything else. Even the British people lived with absolute monarchs for centuries and as long as they were fed and rich and the Empire was strong, no one made a fuss.

    The Americans would form a recent example of this. Once upon a time they fussed about the Iraq war and how freedom must be spread around the world. In current economic difficulties, all of a sudden Iraq is no longer a top priority.

    Democracy or Dictatorship, the rule is very simple: keep the people happy and you can do whatever you like.

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  • 2. At 09:49am on 25 Nov 2008, D Zhang wrote:

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  • 3. At 09:55am on 25 Nov 2008, topbear1974 wrote:

    Wow, that is new to me. I lived in china most of my life I never heard of the "deal". Neither my parents or friends aware this "unspoken but well know secret". TianAnmen square event was from a good intension at start but the act was pure stupidity evolved to a riot. Any government would do the same in the end. Like Thather dealt with UK miners, french government queched the student riot acouple of years ago. It is no difference.


    When is BBC's job to spread romour and ungrounded guess now?

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  • 4. At 10:05am on 25 Nov 2008, beijing_2008 wrote:

    China is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma. My description of China as a "riddle" centres on my belief that China, as a concept, cannot be fully understood by the application of traditional theories in political science. That China has stood when other civilisations have fallen is itself a mystery, but that China is powering towards superpower status with all the wrong ingredients, at least theoretically, is even more astounding. Is there something worldly unique about China, and Chinese identity, that has enabled the country to be the world's longest continuous civilisation? Certainly China suffered many of the ills, such as disease, overpopulation, natural disasters, economic disruption, political incompetence etc, that brought down many of the great civilisations - the Maya, Mesopotamia, Mali etc - but this does not explain the complexity in its entirely. China, uniquely, also had to deal with massive foreign aggression, ideological madness, ethnic tensions and, for a large part of its history, complete inconsistency in written and spoken language. Yet it survived. And today, it is rising, economically and in political influence, at a rate unprecedented in human history. This achieved without the institutions, independent judiciary, independent media and representative government that have been the bedrock from which Western nations have developed.
    Whereas, crudely speaking, the United States was conceived with a set of principles that acts as a point of unity for the nation, and for example Japan has always been a uni-ethnic, uni-linguistic nation, China has many ethnicities, many dialects, many cultures, and many local religions. What is the glue that holds (contemporary) China together?

    China is both chaotic and orderly. It is both conventional and completely contradictory. It is stable, yet has the propensity to self-destruct. It is outward-looking, yet has the Great Wall. It seeks acceptance from the West, yet mistrusts it deeply.
    China is the construct of thousands of years of culture and learning, with Confucian thought being particularly influential. Yet, his rites were largely discredited by Mao. Yet they are now being adopted in CCP officialdom.
    There is no word that I can think of that accurately describes the sheer complexity of China. "Riddle" may be an amusing choice, but probably it offers the best chance.

    Pre-historic China, to ancient China, to imperial China, to modern China: these are all fragments of Chinese history that, I would argue, do not give rise to what we understand by China and Chinese identity, but rather they were (are) efforts at moulding China to the abstract (and indefinable) notion of what China should be. The rulers and the way of ruling are transient, but the striving is perennial.

    In simple terms: James Reynolds should not lose sleep over how China can overcome its difficulties, for it has always able to. The Chinese, above all, are survivors.

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  • 5. At 10:10am on 25 Nov 2008, psychoneko wrote:

    And this is different from what's happening in the US and other parts of world, especially the Western parts, how?

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  • 6. At 10:25am on 25 Nov 2008, hizento wrote:

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  • 7. At 10:36am on 25 Nov 2008, biensoir wrote:

    The 'deal' is just conjured by you. The Chinese government do not need to make any deals with the people. They just do it top-down.
    Only the so called democratic countries need the hit deals with the citizens for their votes. Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling bail-out the banks, cut taxes, to court the voters so that they can win the next election. Obama also makes deals or the promises to the people so that they can vote him into the White House.
    Putting it in a nutshell, Chinese governments do not need to make deals with people, but the democratic governments do, for the ballot paper.

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  • 8. At 10:41am on 25 Nov 2008, windoze wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 9. At 11:11am on 25 Nov 2008, ho0oligans wrote:

    At least Chinese leadership in better position than Obama. China still have 8-9% growth and surplus fiscal year. Now compare that to what Obama will inherit from Bush and his predecessors.

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  • 10. At 11:54am on 25 Nov 2008, endyjai wrote:

    What's new?

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  • 11. At 12:52pm on 25 Nov 2008, Walsh of Wembley wrote:

    Topbear1974, how can you compare a miner's strike with the murder of hundreds of innocent students which the CCP then tried to hide from the whole world?! Completely different.

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  • 12. At 1:01pm on 25 Nov 2008, D Zhang wrote:

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  • 13. At 1:06pm on 25 Nov 2008, Charles1985 wrote:

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  • 14. At 1:38pm on 25 Nov 2008, EWONGNL wrote:

    There is no deal in Cuba;
    There is no deal in N. Korea;
    There was no deal under Mao.

    If you are right, James, you should at least end up by saying: congrats, China. It's her first step towards a modern society, tacit deal or not.

    The key is not the deal, most countries have this deal. The key is how to fairly measure the progress of the deal ( free media) , when and who will enforce the deal (independent judiciary). If one can have these two ingredients, call it communist, socialist, demonist, zionist or whatever, it doesn't matter.

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  • 15. At 1:46pm on 25 Nov 2008, sheriffCartman wrote:

    Are you actually blogging from within China or from elsewhere? There's very little insight here for someone supposedly living in Beijing, just assumption after assumption.

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  • 16. At 2:25pm on 25 Nov 2008, D Zhang wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 17. At 2:28pm on 25 Nov 2008, Xlbfan wrote:

    I knew that some people would misread James' post. My interpretation is that many people would prefer political change if given the choice, but as long as the government keeps up the good work on the economy then they're largely happy to leave things the way they are.

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  • 18. At 2:29pm on 25 Nov 2008, D Zhang wrote:

    James, clearly you just cannot accept the fact that Chinese people are just doing fine and the Chinese government has done a great job to improve every single aspect of the country

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  • 19. At 2:31pm on 25 Nov 2008, D Zhang wrote:

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  • 20. At 2:31pm on 25 Nov 2008, D Zhang wrote:

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  • 21. At 2:32pm on 25 Nov 2008, changen wrote:

    I don't know why James always interpret a thing in a wrong way....

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  • 22. At 2:49pm on 25 Nov 2008, D Zhang wrote:

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  • 23. At 2:57pm on 25 Nov 2008, aeroarchie wrote:

    According to a World Bank report released Tuesday in Beijing, China's GDP growth will slow to 7.5% in 2009.

    Louis Kuijis, a World Bank economist, said that so far China has been relatively unaffected by the global crisis because its banks are healthy and exports have remained strong, but added that the impact would intensify in 2009. Conditions should improve later in the coming year, but any firm forecast was difficult amid the global turmoil, he said.

    David Dollar, the World Bank's country director for China, said that at the forecast rate of growth, he expected China would continue to create enough jobs and the labour market would remain "pretty tight". "We are confident that China has the tools to keep its growth rate at a healthy level and most importantly to create the number of jobs it needs", he said.

    Between World Bank economists and a BBC correspondent, I take my bet on the former.

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  • 24. At 3:15pm on 25 Nov 2008, madpiano wrote:

    To be honest, I see nothing wrong with this kind of "deal". As long as the government keeps it's people happy, there is no need for a democracy. Who would vote off the leaders who make them happy ?

    Is democracy really the be-all and end-all which we keep being told ? There are many ways to rule people, why do we in Britain always think we know best ? Is our society (knife crime, feral children, drunk yobs and reality TV) really so much better ? And how is democracy used here anyway ? 31% of voters voted for the current government, but certainly not 31% of the population in Britain, more like 5% - we might as well do away with voting if no one can be bothered.

    I would like to congratulate the chinese government to their achievement in ruling a country so vast and so diverse.

    Of course people should have the right to freedom of speech and many other things, but we haven't had that for a long time in the UK either (you try and say something the PC brigade doesn't agree with...). Is everyone in China happy ? Probably not. Would they be happier under a democracy with the likelyhood of China breaking up into several different countries and the possibility of civil war (just look at what happened in Yugoslavia), very likely not.

    It's time to leave the chinese people to decide whats best for china. They are working on being the next superpower. I wonder if some time in the future they will come over here and dictate that we switch to their way of ruling people ?

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  • 25. At 3:20pm on 25 Nov 2008, KrSund70 wrote:

    This so-called "Deal" is fundamental to all government.

    In exchange for the right to govern, the government sees to the welfare of the people. EVERY government works this way ... so way to do everything in your power to make it look like some sort of shady bribe or worse.

    The difference is how you define "welfare." Chinese emphasis is on tangible quality of life improvements. Western emphasis is upon intangible individual rights. Who's to say which deserves the heavier emphasis?

    The West, with sufficient material wealth to go around, clearly states that emphasis should be on the latter. But that is a luxury that the "haves" may afford. To those who have always had so little, Beijing has done so much to make quality of life better for the Chinese people than could even have been imagined a generation ago.

    Why don't you focus on that? Because it doesn't fit your political agenda.

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  • 26. At 4:38pm on 25 Nov 2008, Wicked_Witch_of_the_West_Coast wrote:

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  • 27. At 4:54pm on 25 Nov 2008, gadflying wrote:

    To #11 senlin

    They are sure different, there are no 2 cases are totally same.

    But do you mean the miners aren't innocent? or they are deserved to be murdered?

    Maybe the difference is some government have apologized for that, but so what, If the case comes again, they will do same things.

    As for Tiananmen aquare, If you are interest in and learn more about it besides the few dogmatical conclusions on media. Maybe you will find that it's no proper to simply discribe it as "the CCP murdered hundreds of innocent students", just like you can not simply discribe the miner's strike as "the government murdered hundreds of innocent miners".
    Anyway, I am very sad for that tragedy and I think we all do not hope it happen again. So we have to learn more and think more about it to avoid such things happen again. It's useless that just simply judge and blame even curse someone. The case is definitely more complex than what the flubdub medias said.

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  • 28. At 5:25pm on 25 Nov 2008, beijing_2008 wrote:

    We know China isn't a democracy - we don't need a BBC correspondent (living full-time in China paid for by the British taxpayer) to keep telling us this.

    Some China bashers on here have asked for more diverse opinions from posters. This may be a sensible request, but equally valid is for the author to blog more diverse experiences of his life in China, some of which surely must be positve?

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  • 29. At 11:25pm on 25 Nov 2008, funnyanotherblogger wrote:

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  • 30. At 00:12am on 26 Nov 2008, D Zhang wrote:

    I don't know how long our James the correspondent of BBC in Beijing has been living in China. For me, as a Chinese living in the UK for more than 5 years, I've observed some sorts of DEALs in the UK.

    So, what is the deals in the western democracy?

    1) Rich people get the chance to run for elections. If you don't have enough money, you don't even get the chance to register.

    2) Big corporations pay (or 'donate to') those politicians for favourable policies in the future. Hence, those politicians/political parties will become even richer, so as the big names.

    3) The last but not least: People leave the politics to those politicians with fat pockets, and in return they make people rich. If they can't do it, they would simply make people believe that they are getting richer no matter what the facts are.

    So, everything here is simply money-driven. Are those deals in the UK better than what James claimed in China?

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  • 31. At 00:55am on 26 Nov 2008, chineseinoz wrote:

    Great comment, Madpiano.

    James, sorry to see again that you tried to overshadow the achievement Chinese government made, and its willingness to take care its people. Maybe you have done it intentionally.

    If you don’t count people’s willingness to get out of poverty, get better education, and etc as part of the request of freedom. And if you don’t count the government’s effort to help people get better life is not an essential part of democracy. You are right. Our Chinese basically trade our freedom for money.

    Maybe some would see me as those who are brainwashed by the CCP. While if you are not brainwashed how can you so sure your “democracy” system is the best around the world, and it’s the example for those to follow?

    A huge amount of Chinese goes overseas for education either supported by the government or their family. I am one of them. Most of us, at least among those I know, unfortunately, not as you, James wish, are generally satisfied with the government although we have experienced what the western “democracy” is.

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  • 32. At 02:40am on 26 Nov 2008, psychoneko wrote:

    Oh yeah, I seem to recall a certain highly influential European economist who stressed the importance of the "Social Contract". I believe his name was John Locke. I believe that you may have heard of him, after all he was alive back in the 17th century or so and his treatise became a guiding principle for various governments.

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  • 33. At 02:57am on 26 Nov 2008, bluejeansbj wrote:

    I agree with KrSund70 that the so called "deal" is fundamental to all government.

    Maybe I am being paranoid, but from reading the last two paragraphs I can't help but feel that James is waiting anxiously for those things to happen. From the pre-Olympic blogs I often got the feeling that James was waiting for the game to go hilariously wrong (all those air quality tests, the bitter complaint about how the officials read the names of the parks reserved for protests too fast, the ridicule over the security check, etc, etc.) Why is that, James? Can't you just accept the fact that the Chinese people are generally happy with their life and therefore don't intend to overthrow their government in the foreseeable future?

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  • 34. At 04:02am on 26 Nov 2008, aeroarchie wrote:

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  • 35. At 05:46am on 26 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    To #7 beinsoir,

    Politicians in democracy DO NOT need any deals. If you do not believe, call them with a grievance and see if the EVER return your call.

    Politicians in democracy need only LIES and big money from their backings (who are behind the stage and in control.)

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  • 36. At 05:47am on 26 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    To Senlin #11,

    I just wish to remind you that I know a lot of massacres conducted by the US and UK democracies.

    I cannot mention those, because the brutal censor of this board with BAN my post.

    I just say, without speaking it out, that you have plenty. Your media do not report these.

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  • 37. At 05:48am on 26 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

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  • 38. At 07:05am on 26 Nov 2008, MidnightJunkie wrote:

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  • 39. At 07:31am on 26 Nov 2008, Renee1112 wrote:

    "the people leave the politics to the government; in return the government makes the people rich." What's wrong? Ordinary people don't need politics. Since the government can provide us money, jobs and a peaceful and harmonious society, what we can complain and protest? Actually, it's not so accurate. Many Chinese people care much about government policies and social news, because they are so closely connected with us. No one can take right action all the time, the same with the Chinese government. However, I have to say, the government has done a lot of good to the ordinary peole in these decades and what the government does has become increasingly transparently now.

    To overcome the finacial crisis, I'm sure Chinese government can do very much better than any other countries. Most people believe on this although they are not so glad on it. That's why those EU & US leaders try ot turn to China for help.

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  • 40. At 08:04am on 26 Nov 2008, Cocozk wrote:

    #4

    Acctually, you know much about China, maybe much better than James. You must be a Chinese yourself or a Chinese expert.

    As a native Chinese, I'd like to invite those who wanna learn about China to come to China and see it with your own eyes. China won't be so mysterious at all. I have a lot of foreign friends and collegues here. They like China very much. I'm sure you won't hate us so much after you are really here.

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  • 41. At 08:08am on 26 Nov 2008, yellowminshurts wrote:

    At the time of the Tiananmen protests in 1989"--a time of economic downturn--"China's urban educated populace had good reason to be angry," notes China expert Jonathan Unger, in a study of China's middle class. "Their salaries were low, and sour jokes circulated about private barbers earning more with their razors than hospital surgeons with their scalpels."

    "Let some people get rich first,"Deng Xiaoping himself, the author of China's economic reforms famously declared.This is the real deal.

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  • 42. At 10:15am on 26 Nov 2008, I_love_China wrote:

    The Deal! wo, I haven't heared it before yet.
    Even if it does have. dare you say it isn't a deal between English People and your goverment or any goverments with their people?
    why can't Mc'Cain win the 2008 American presidential election? cauz he is the Republics like the incumbent president George w Bush who is also the Republics,
    Bush has done really bad for the American economy. that's why obama says 'we need a change' . and yes, American people made it even if they are reluctant to be ruled by a black president.

    i should say, james, you are so smart. you unraveled a mystery which no one has never figured out.
    congragulations, james.
    i guess next year's nobel prize is already in your hand. becasue you really solved one of the biggest problem in the human history.

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  • 43. At 10:37am on 26 Nov 2008, Charles1985 wrote:

    congratulations you finally understand China and Chinese people ,though it comes too late .
    you never kown me .i've been watching your blog for a relatively long time .why do i just comment on this blog ?for i am pleased with your progress . from what you said now and bofore ,i can get a feeling of arrogance of your westners ,especially your englishmen .but i can say
    nothing because i do admit that your englishmen are more civilized(is this word proper?) than us .you obey the social rules and you are serious at your work......
    i kown you are disgusted about the communist party of china .but to be a correspondent from one of the most famous media ,or to be a distinguished man yourself, you need to see the social things deeply ,not just on the surface .china is such a complicated country with
    such a large population ,while most of it's people are not educated well .in my words ,nearly 1 billion chinese have no qualification to be called modern people .i wonder whether you've got it .you can find people throwing and spitting in the streets in any city.what's worse ,they have no
    responsibility to the society and the nation (although it's hard for me to admit) . at this
    situation ,i always imagion what will happen if china take your political systems .
    people owning enough rights but without the sense of responsibility will just bring confusion to the whole nation ,like endless strikes and demonstration ,even violence,which will be a
    disaster to the ordinary chinese people .that's why i support what the government did in 1989(what you think you kown more )
    also i'm also a college student .
    in my philosophy,everything needs a ballance ,there's no absolute perfect .our chinese are not foolish as you may think .we just choose what is better .
    besides ,i strongly doubt the westners' so-called "caring for china's human rights ".
    i firmly convince that overtaking others is a original,basic mind for all human beings .the
    westners take human rights just as a tool ,which is relatively reasonable,to overtake the chinese
    leaders or even the whole chinese .unless ,why don't they show any sympathy towards the
    people who are suffering from the earthquake happend in May,12th. to be honest,i firmly believe the so-called "caring for china's human rights " is purely crap.
    i like your words and you as a friend to our chinese .i guess you can also feel the hospitality from most of the chinese you met, which is the tradition of chinese .i'm a colleage student from sichuan province ,
    studying in northwestern polytechnical university (nwpu),xi'an . i'm 22years old this year(your younger brotherO(n_n)O~)
    .don't be confused ,i haven't got any benefits from the communist party ,these are words from my hearts .


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  • 44. At 10:48am on 26 Nov 2008, topbear1974 wrote:

    To #11 senlin

    The so called innocent student killed sodiers as well! They have been warned and told to leave days before the open fire. Those riot killed and tortured soldiers and hang their bodies on the walking bridge. Try to do that to US or Uk police. it is not like they sat there did nothing and still got seven bullets in the head. Think new oleans, friend. Chinese government did not do anything different from any so called "democratic" country.


    Chinese people know there are fault on both parties. try to show the Tiananmen square picture to any passby on the street of shanghai or beijing. I would be surprised if they don't tear the pictures to pieced and throw on your face.

    Actually speaking of which do you know what happened to that famous guy who stand in front of a tank? He was NEVER killed. If the western media had the gut to show the rest of video-- that Tank swirl around him and left. Try to do that in front UK tank!

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  • 45. At 11:02am on 26 Nov 2008, FFScotland wrote:

    The Mandate of Heaven, or Tianming, has been around since before Mencius in the 4th century BC.

    This political philosophy says that governments have the absolute power to do what they want. But a government that treats its people harshly will inevitably be swept aside. And this is as it should be.

    I think James' assessment of a deal is correct, but essentially a continuance of a millennia-old philosophy.

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  • 46. At 1:21pm on 26 Nov 2008, aeroarchie wrote:

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  • 47. At 3:51pm on 26 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

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  • 48. At 3:54pm on 26 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

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  • 49. At 5:01pm on 26 Nov 2008, ricky-tanzil wrote:

    I'm very optimistic about the economic future of China. They can not hungry anymore as you worried about.Their fertile land the biggest in the world. Every single seed will grow.
    No wonder in the near future with improved agricultures, with million migrant worker as you mentioned about,they can supply food to the entire world.
    Chinese people had suvived in the past under food embargos by the West, but now and in the future no wander if they can turn food embargo to the West.

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  • 50. At 10:52pm on 26 Nov 2008, Walsh of Wembley wrote:

    To Topbear 1974:

    Your original post sounded like an attempt to liken the Tiananmen massacre with similar protests in the west. However, I have yet to see any evidence here. Let's go through your last post:

    Those riot killed and tortured soldiers and hang their bodies on the walking bridge.

    Ok, if this is true, then this was retribution for the murder of their innocent friends.

    Try to do that to US or Uk police.

    I do not understand this point. You mean, if I tried to hang a UK or US policeman they would shoot me first? I would expect so.

    Think new oleans, friend.

    If you are talking about the looters then they were armed and the police acted in self-defence. Were the students in Tiananmen armed? New Orleans was handled terrbily but that is not my point here.

    I'm sorry if this is a painful subject to talk about but I really feel you are trying to defend China by attempting to find comparisons which just don't exist. Too many Chinese come on here trying to defend China by simply slamming the west, when often this is simply a knee-jerk reaction without any solid basis. Deep down you probably know this too.

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  • 51. At 02:48am on 27 Nov 2008, ipfreak wrote:

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  • 52. At 02:55am on 27 Nov 2008, Renee1112 wrote:

    Many people compared a lot the Tiananmen Square student protests with UK miners here.

    I wanna compare Chinese police and western police(US for example). Most Chinese police we see on the street don't take guns and they won't use it only if it's really necessary. But the US police take guns in their daily work and are prepared to shoot at any moment. In the famous US TV show "desperate housewives, Lynett is just forwarding and shouting at the police without anything in her hand, and the police step backward and try to take out his gun. I've heard of a lot of news that Chinese tourists were shot by US police because they are "rude" or "indifferent" to the US police. Why? Because most Chinese think police won't have gun or won't shoot even they have one. Try to think of it, if the Tiananmen Square student protests happened in US, what will be next. I think the riots won't take so long, because they are shot dead early.

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  • 53. At 04:25am on 27 Nov 2008, rpastbourne wrote:

    OK
    I agree most governments have an unspoken deal with their people. But bear with me here.

    I am a US citizen. I am very unhappy with my country's presence in Iraq, the state of our economy, and campaign finance lobbies. The US is currently spending 500 billion some odd dollars fighting a stupid war in Iraq, or economy is likely to grow -1% next year and universal health care initiatives cannot be passed because of lobbies and special interests. I am still happy with my government and will stand by them and work within the system.

    Now China is going to post around 8% growth next year, that is a very different matter, but lets assume that it didnt.

    If the Chinese economy receded -1%, would the Chinese people still be happy with their government?
    What about if the Chinese army was off occupying some unimportant land? What about if there was large scale corruption that enriched an elite few but left the rest to fend for themselves(china does have corruption)
    Would the Chinese people still leave their faith in the system and be happy with their government?

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  • 54. At 10:48am on 27 Nov 2008, Walsh of Wembley wrote:

    What is going on here? Likening the miner's strike of the 1970's with the Tiananmen massacre? I do not recall my parents telling that the police shot dead any miners? This is why people like me need to come on to this blog or we just end up with a distorted view of the facts.

    You can not blind the truth from us. Some of us have lived in China. Some of us know that if you try to call the police in small Chinese cities, nobody will come to help. Some of us have seen the police eating in fancy restaurants using your taxes. China is not just Shanghai and Beijing.

    Stop trying to save face all the time and admit the problems you need to solve.

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  • 55. At 11:30am on 27 Nov 2008, endyjai wrote:

    To post 53:

    Then it would be a totally different government. A tad hypothetical? Every developed country is looking to their government for economic progress and are choosing their government accordingly.

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  • 56. At 11:31am on 27 Nov 2008, funnyanotherblogger wrote:

    @ 53

    If economy slows a little, it might pick up later. 5-7% growth is quite OK for me. If Chinese government spend the nation's wealth in wars that aiming at other nation's oil, if they dare to send the nation from surplus to debit to make few armdealers rich, then off the faith goes. We Chinese think differently from Americans.

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  • 57. At 11:53am on 27 Nov 2008, funnyanotherblogger wrote:

    Seilin,

    Although I did not eye witness the violence on that fatal day but at least I have seen the footage of the violence . Violence from PLA from westen media and violence from student's side from internet. To get a more balance view I suggest you watch a western documentary "The Gate of Heavenly Peace".
    The documentary includes interviews of student leaders, Chinese intellectuals, workers who participate the month long protest, and one of the "Tian An Men Mum" whose son was killed on 4th June. There were guns in student headquater on the square. And there were violence from both sides. The world has hold Chinese government responsible for the event for almost 30 years. As a student who participated the protest I want to ask my former student leaders a question:

    Did you planned to turn students into millitants?

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  • 58. At 3:18pm on 27 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 59. At 5:22pm on 27 Nov 2008, aeroarchie wrote:

    No one has been able to offer any concrete evidence that "hundreds of students" were murdered by the CCP in 1989. A list of their names and where they used to reside is all we need.

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  • 60. At 9:10pm on 27 Nov 2008, londonlurker wrote:

    I don't think this is accurate. I think Tiananmen protest was exactly because the government couldn't deliver The Deal, i.e. Deng's reform was in trouble, and that was why students went on streets protesting peacefully. The new deal is: if the government still can't make people rich, the protests are not going to be peaceful.

    Has James watched the 1995 documentary 'The Gate of Heavenly Peace' produced by Richard Gordon and Carma Hinton yet? If you haven't, please do.

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  • 61. At 1:57pm on 28 Nov 2008, aeroarchie wrote:

    300 million people lifted out of poverty in less than a generation; GDP growth at an average annual rate of 9.7% since 1979; on course to take over Germany as the 3rd largest economy in 2008. These are some examples of the success of Deng's economic reform.

    Continue dreaming and your wishful thinking if you want to see Chinese students returning to the streets again. The way the young Chinese responded to the disruption to the Olympic torch relay in some western cities in March and the May 12 Sichuan earthquake should give you some indication how they feel about their country.

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  • 62. At 02:02am on 29 Nov 2008, londonlurker wrote:

    To No.61
    Lies, damned lies, and statistics. People don't care about numbers, when they live in the aftermath of phony economy.

    Hating westerners is a way to have some cheap pride and distract from the reality. Does it make your life better?

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  • 63. At 2:05pm on 01 Dec 2008, aeroarchie wrote:

    The statistics (oops I mean 'lies') I quoted earlier are from international agencies like World Bank, ADB and IMF.

    I don't think ordinary Chinese hate westerners (ask any westerners who have visited China before). They hate all China-haters, westerners or otherwise.

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  • 64. At 5:41pm on 03 Dec 2008, londonlurker wrote:

    Where would World Bank, ADB and IMF get their statistics on China other than from Chinese government? Don't you know how GDP in China works. When central government release the economy plan saying 'we plan to have 10% growth next year', the plan passes on to local governments, and the next year local government will report back say "we just had 10% growth". that's how it is done.

    How can you tell who is china-hater and who is not? as long as you admit you are hating someone, I shall rest in peace.

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  • 65. At 4:01pm on 04 Dec 2008, aeroarchie wrote:

    I visit China once or twice a year and have lived in China for sometime. I could see changes in every visit, in terms of public amenities, infrastructure, etc. There are vibrant cities in every province and autonomous region I visited. (The thing I never heard of is "The Deal".)

    International agencies and G8 world leaders are no fools. China has USD1.9 trillion foreign reserves of which close to USD600 billion is invested in US treasury bills. China-made goods fill the shelves of stores in America, Europe, Australia and other parts of the world. In many countries including mine, mainland China has become their fastest growing inbound tourist market. 41 million mainland Chinese travelled abroad in 2007.

    I could tell a China-hater from what he does or says/writes. If a person hates someone/something and pretends otherwise, he is a hypocrite.

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  • 66. At 10:00am on 05 Dec 2008, londonlurker wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 67. At 4:44pm on 05 Dec 2008, mikelia wrote:

    James,

    You are correct, every country throughout the human history has been making the written and/or unwritten deal with its people. In the US, there was the "new deal":

    From Wikipedia

    "The New Deal was the name that United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt gave to a series of economic programs he initiated between 1933 and 1936 with the goal of giving work (relief) to the unemployed, reform of business and financial practices, and recovery of the economy during The Great Depression."

    If the "deal" between the government and its people can be kept, then the country will be prosperous. If it s broken, then social unrest will occur, such as, the French revolution, the American revolution, the communist take over in Russia and China, Tiananmen, and the recent world wide economic meltdown, etc, etc.....

    James, regardless of your motivation, I think that Mr. Hu and Mr. Wen should invite you to the Chungnanhai and personally thank you for giving them the advance warning to keep delivering the promise on the unwritten "deal" or social unrest will ensue. BTW, the 4 trillion RMB economic stimulus package is just trying to deliver the "deal".

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  • 68. At 4:48pm on 05 Dec 2008, aeroarchie wrote:

    The following on China's economy is quoted from "CIA - The World Factbook":

    "The restructuring of the economy and resulting efficiency have contributed to a more than tenfold increase in GDP since 1978. Measured on a PPP basis, China in 2007 stood as the second-largest economy in the world after the US, although in per capita terms the country is still lower middle-income."

    No wonder US president Bush once said that "China is growing like mad".

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  • 69. At 04:32am on 06 Dec 2008, aeroarchie wrote:

    In the section on "Mandate of Heaven", a traditional Chinese philosophical concept concerning the legitimacy of China's ancient dynastic rulers, Wikipedia makes no mention of any "deal", new or old, written or unwritten, between the CCP and the Chinese people. It says 'the "Mandate of Heaven" was very popular among the people of China, as it (the Heaven) "kicks out" inappropriate rulers, or rulers who were not doing the right thing for China'.

    Though an ancient Chinese concept, doomsayers would never miss the opportunity to link any natural disaster (e.g. Tangshan earthquake 1976 and Sichuan earthquake 2008) and economic hardship (e.g. mass layoffs resulting from the resturcturing of China's state-owned enterprises in early 2000s) to their imagined withdrawal of the "Mandate" from the "Heaven".

    With or without an economic recession or a natural disaster, any responsible government would try its best to do the right thing for the people. China's leaders are doing just that, and need no "warning" from bloggers.

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  • 70. At 07:21am on 06 Dec 2008, Noliving wrote:

    Guys I think what he means by this "deal" is that the Chinese population would give up political power/influence/rights whatever you want to call them and give the government complete say in how the government is run in return for the "we will make you rich".

    If you look at other countries, that have a so called "democracy", that made a deal with the government they didn't give up political power/influence/rights in return for a better economy.

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  • 71. At 3:30pm on 09 Dec 2008, mikelia wrote:


    #70,

    You are correct. That was what he meant.

    But the social-political situation in China may not be that simple. During the Tiananmen Square incident, the young educated Chinese were longing for a seemingly utopian western style of democracy. They have made a Statue of Liberty similar to the US one. But afterwards, their idealistic dream was shattered; they discovered that the western style of democracy has revealed it true sinister nature due to various world events. They are totally disillusioned by the self-interest driven western democracy and as a result, they now turned to Chinese Nationalism and are proud of the Chinese culture and heritage. They are sacrificing their idealistic dream and willing to give the communist government a chance to deliver their promise. Being over 10% GDP growth for over 30 years, this is an astounding achievement by any standard in human history. The Chinese has demonstrated their immense pride during the Olympic Games to show their long, continuous and envious heritage to the world even after the most tragic and disastrous earth quake event. Now the world economy is in shambles and the Chinese export is diminished to a ground halt, I hope that the 4 trillion dollar stimulus package would work, or all bets are off and the inevitable social unrest will occur and we should thank Mr. Reynold’s advance warning. There are plenty of history lessons to learn and I don't think that the Chinese government is that naive. For the first time in a century, the Han, Tang and Ming dynasty pride has been aroused on purpose. This immense force is now being released and the world is watching in amazement.

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  • 72. At 2:12pm on 10 Dec 2008, aeroarchie wrote:

    It''s not true that young Chinese have now turned to nationalism. They've just become more pragmatic, having seen what has "western democracy" brought to the former Soviet Union.

    All governments ("democratic" or not) hit by an economic downturn would introduce a stimulus package. China's 4 trillion yuan package was announced without any "warning" from bloggers. China's leaders know what they are doing. The stimulus will save China's economy from a hard landing. Most likely China will be the only major economy which remains growing next year.

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  • 73. At 5:18pm on 10 Dec 2008, mikelia wrote:

    #72,

    Regarding your comment below:
    "It’s not true that young Chinese have now turned to nationalism."

    The Singapore's ex-president actually warned the danger of excessive nationalism of the Chinese before China can claim its position world wide. Nationalism is a double edge sword, it can save you and it can destroy you also.

    The four trillion dollar stimulus package is needed and it is a strategy to try to save a sagging economy. However, its effect has yet to be determined and only time can tell.

    It is premature to announce that China will continue its 9% growth rate and be the sole survivor of the current economic melt down. IMHO, this is a very “nationalist” view.

    It all depends whether or not the transfer of China’s export economy to internal need could be successful, whether or not the unemployment rate is low, whether or not the disaster relief will be successful, and whether or not the world wide geopolitical environment is conducive.

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  • 74. At 01:18am on 11 Dec 2008, funnyanotherblogger wrote:

    I agree with both of your guys. Educated Chinese are now more realistic and realise only themself will look after China and Chinese people's interest. The unrealistic trust of the west or western democracy collapsed over the last 20 years I would say.

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  • 75. At 2:46pm on 11 Dec 2008, aeroarchie wrote:

    #73

    I remember S'pore ex-premier's warning about excessive Chinese nationalism but I don't remember he had said Chinese youth have already turned nationalistic. In the past decade or so, there had been several unusual incidents which aroused Chinese nationalism - e.g. US bombing of Chinese embassy in Belgrade; collision between a Chinese fighter and a US spy plane in China's airspace; disruption of Beijing Olympics torch relay in certain western cities.

    China's 4 trillion yuan stimulus package will certainly have an impact on its GDP growth. It represents around 14% of China's estimated GDP for 2008. By some estimates, it'll add 1-2% to China's GDP growth in 2009. The Asian Development Bank today projects China's growth at 8.2% for 2009. (The World Bank earlier projected a 7.5% growth, and the IMF, 8.5%.) China wants to maintain its growth at 8% in 2009. The projection that China will be the only major economy to remain growing in 2009 is not made by me. I read it in business journals and in reports I received from banks.

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  • 76. At 3:30pm on 11 Dec 2008, mikelia wrote:

    #74 Funnyblogger

    Yes, we all know that any political system has its pros and cons. Western democracy is far from perfect. But I must say that the recent presidential election in the US has demonstrated what a free democratic system can deliver to the world. Only 40 years after Martin Luther King's speech 'I have a dream", the first mutt president is born in the US. In contrast, after 60 year's of PRC establishment, China is still ruled by one party and there are very few free elections.

    I do agree wholeheartedly that the only way to keep the educated Chinese like you happy is to make an unwritten deal, like # 70 Noliving said you will “give up political power/influence/rights in return for a better economy’. In the mean time, the government has successfully used natioalist fervor to divert frustrations of the young Chinese boiling blood.

    I do hope in time, the Chinese leaders are able to absorb the best from the western democracy and indeed create a robust socialist system with Chinese characteristics and seek harmony with all nations worldwide. Nationalism may be a nice tool to achieve its goal, but as Lee Kwan Yew said, that must be handled very carefully.

    With all that said, actually people only care about the basic survival needs in their lives, that is, clothing, food, living, transportation and job. The western freedom is a rather abstract term used by the cunning politicians to control people. Let’s ask the question, exactly how much freedom in the western democracy that can be quantified and which ones are the must for basic human survival? Free election, the moral high horse-human rights, an amorphous freedom statement, or that I’m-better-than-you attitude because of my race, creed and national origin….what else??

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  • 77. At 9:17pm on 11 Dec 2008, worlddonotforgetibet wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 78. At 01:25am on 12 Dec 2008, funnyanotherblogger wrote:

    Mikelia.

    I agree that democracy is more advanced form of governing. However, I think China is not at that developmental stage yet. Democracy only works well when there is an educated majority. With majority of the population being poor and undereducated, one man one vote may not be a good idea. I am afraid some elements of communism would come back as a result.

    I am very optimistic about China's future. The communist party has proved themself being very flexible. They have completely given up communism to capitalism. I mean their core value has changed by themself so whatelse they can not change or accept? I guess they havenot changed the party name yet because communism is the ideology the army was built on. I have a relative who is in the army, from what he told me I think there is very little communism left in the army. I do not think nationalism is a bad thing. It can replace communism. I guess no one can really predict what will happen in China in the next 30 years.

    China is expanding its middle class and improving in education. In another word the Chinese are laying down the basic fundation needed for democracy. I see all of this as a necessary accumulating process. Once the quantity reach certain level then there will be a qualitiative change. May be 30 years later China will have a nationalist party ruling the country?

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  • 79. At 05:15am on 12 Dec 2008, aeroarchie wrote:

    China will take at least another 25 years to involve into a "democracy with Chinese characteristics". Right now its priority is on ensuring freedom from hunger, poverty and unemployment, and the rights to healthcare, education and housing.

    Singapore ex-premier's warning in mid-2000s on Chinese nationalism was made after wide-spread protests erupted in China over then Japan premier's repeated visits to Yasukuni Shrine (which honours Japanese war deads including 14 executed Class A war criminals). Strangely, the protests made by the South Koreans were barely reported in western media.

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  • 80. At 4:30pm on 12 Dec 2008, mikelia wrote:

    Our discussion is slightly off the original topic. If I'm not mistaken, we were discussing if the Chinese (young and old) are giving up their basic political rights in exchange for better life in terms of [freedom from hunger, poverty and unemployment, and the rights to healthcare, education and housing]. Now we are changing the subject to the justification of what CCP did and why it did such things in the past. I don’t think most people would care about the name CCP party or what kind of core values it holds now. The ordinary LaoBaiHsiong only worry about their basic living necessities. If it will take another 25-30 years (one generation) for China to change to a democracy with Chinese characteristics, then within this time period, it is critical for the CCP one party system to build some kind of internal check and balance to prevent dictatorship, corruption and over zealousness similar to the Mao's Cultural Revolution from happening again.

    The mid-2000 violent protest was a physical form of Chinese nationalism; in 2008, we have experienced the web based nationalism against western Tibet reports and Olympic torch passing incidents. I agree that nationalism is not necessarily a bad thing, but from what I have read, some of the comments from online bloggers are just too biased, violent, pompous and chauvinistic to take the overall reality into consideration. China is still an emerging poor third world country, and its strength is its huge cheap labor. But without the export market, the economy will be in a dismal position. That’s why it is so very important that the stimulus package must be made to work, or the social unrest will happen. Most people just look at the bright side based on a forecast, but there is also a grave danger lying ahead.

    In the era of globalization, not a single nation on this earth can survive alone due to the global economic melt down, global warming, the energy crisis, the terrorism, the Somalia pirates, global pollution, the population growth, the hunger, the communicable diseases, such as, AIDS, hepatitis, avian flu and SARS, etc., all these issues need global coordination. That’s the reason why nationalism and eventual isolationism may not serve a nation well.

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  • 81. At 11:06pm on 12 Dec 2008, worlddonotforgetibet wrote:

    When the Communist army entered Kham,East Tibet,they proposed a deal.
    They said that you give up your religion,give up your history,tradition,culture,give up your resistance,give up your property,and the Peoples Liberation Army will reward you with wealth and liberty that you have never experienced before.Or you will pay for it.And the Tibetans paid for it.
    So freedom is not free.Don't let the leaders take away your freedom; freedom to shape your own destination and the nation's
    future.The freedom to reject is the only freedom.
    Do not be fooled or be ignorant."ignorance may be bliss ,but it certainly is not freedom,except in the minds of those who prefer darkness to light and chain to liberty,the more imformation you acquire,the better your enfrenchisement".
    This Deal that is imposed on you
    is no more than a lolipop to a crying baby.
    C.T.
    N.Y.

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  • 82. At 00:01am on 13 Dec 2008, bemusedkevin wrote:

    The deal is illustrative from a social perspective. Obviously. It annoys me that so many commentators would take it literally.

    People forget that all world powers have gone through an industrial-style revolution and have seen large scale growth on all fronts. The question pointed out is how will the Chinese Communist Party act when that growth invariably slows? How will they deal with what these "democratic" "western" nations have been working through in the last decades? THAT is a valid question, so stop labeling people as anti-Chinese for asking it.

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  • 83. At 4:31pm on 15 Dec 2008, mikelia wrote:


    #81, Free Tibet,

    First of all, let me clarify that I’m not from mainland China and I was not educated from there and I’m not brainwashed by the communists.

    I have a lot of sympathy for your free Tibet dream. But let me ask you a few hard questions: 1) Do you honestly and unequivocally think that reverting Tibet back to a theocracy would help the Tibetan people? Unlike most of the ignorant western Free Tibet supporters, I have read a lot regarding the Tibet history and personally I think the Tibet serf and slave system is the most abysmal human right violator in the human history. 2) Do you honestly believe that the Chinese people would allow one quarter of their country to be ceded to the Dalai Lama’s self-rule not independence political scheme? Alas! Freedom is such a beautiful word; so many politicians and special interest groups with ulterior motivations have successfully used it to mislead the romantic ignoramus throughout the human history. Instead of using this out-dated at least 400 year old western jargon, 3) did you ever study why the Tiananmen Square students have ceased their protest and instead supporting their government now? May be you can learn something new! 4) As the topic of this thread is discussing, do you know why these students are now willing to give up their freedom to exchange for a better life and future for their and perhaps your country too? 5) Why you’d like to incite violence and destroy more human lives including your own kind during the bloodshed like your freedom-is-not-free speech? Is this the Tibet Buddhism is teaching? Don’t you know the Christianity prohibits killing?

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  • 84. At 5:28pm on 16 Dec 2008, worlddonotforgetibet wrote:

    Responding to Cocozk's 26th Nov 08.

    you are absolutely right.People to people
    and face to face meeting is the ultimate
    solution for international peace and understanding.
    The majority of Americans will applaud
    your suggestion. To go a litter further,I feel
    that once you are in the host counrty,it is imperative to be open and meet and socialise with the natives.
    Yet one queries thing that I keep on observing in New york
    is that many of the Chinese oversea students tend to move in groups and tend
    not to break the isolation.Wherelse the students from other Asia countries mix freely
    with the natives and in no time talking in American accent.Is it one of the conditions that they must abide by?
    Any way I hope there will be more and more chinese like you untill the barrier is broken down.Good luck.
    C.T. n.y.

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  • 85. At 5:52pm on 16 Dec 2008, aeroarchie wrote:

    #81

    Under the Dalai Lama, Tibet was a feudal serf society where life expectancy was 35, illlteracy was 90%, infant mortality was 43%, and per capita income was USD40 per year. After China re-asserted control over Tibet and implemented social eforms, life expectancy today is 68, illiteracy is 10%, infant mortality is 2.4%, and per capita income is USD1,500 per year. Monasteries can be seen everywhere. There was no deal, the government is only doing what it is supposed to do.


    #82

    China's GDP growth has slowed before in 1981 (5.2%), 1990 (3.8%), and 1999 (7.1%). China knows what to do. It came up with a USD586 billion stimulus package which someone has ridiculed as merely "something to show his hosts (at the Washington G20 summit)".

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  • 86. At 00:29am on 17 Dec 2008, funnyanotherblogger wrote:

    @worlddonotforgettibet.

    Quote what you said here.
    "They said that you give up your religion,give up your history,tradition,culture,give up your resistance,give up your property,and the Peoples Liberation Army will reward you with wealth and liberty that you have never experienced before.Or you will pay for it.And the Tibetans paid for it.
    So freedom is not free.Don't let the leaders take away your freedom; freedom to shape your own destination and the nation's
    future.The freedom to reject is the only freedom."

    You must know what is life like for serfs n slaves when Tibet was under religious rule? What freedom did serfs and slaves who were bound to their masters' land for life have? What wealth did serfs and slaves have? 20% of Tibetan male populations were in Monasteries before 1950. What is the life like for the people who had to pay to support the parasitic life of that many monks? Tibet was backward. There was no road, no health care, and no schools. Tibet supported that many non-productive Monks not by high productivity but by serfdom and slavery.

    Ofcourse there are people both in Tibet and in exiles are not happy. How can they be happy? The Monasteries lost its glorious past, they no longer have the power ro rule Tibet, they lost the vast land they used to have, they lost the controls of serfs and slaves they used to master and now they have to live on central government's handouts. Religious freedom? What great religious freedom Tibet used to have? Monks ruled Tibet. Monasteries had 20% of Tibetan male populations. Monasteries had so much land and high Lamas had so much wealth. Anyone who spoke out against a Lama would had their eyes gogled out or limbs amputed.

    Tibet is free. Free to development. Tibetans who used to be serfs and slaves now live on their own land(Land stripped from Monasteries). Tibetans are free to have access to medical care and educations. They are free to travel and seek their future in big cities. Tibet is now developing fast and keeps its unique culture, tradition, and religion that attracts tourists from all over the world.

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  • 87. At 9:23pm on 17 Dec 2008, mikelia wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 88. At 05:18am on 18 Dec 2008, funnyanotherblogger wrote:

    I can see clearly what kind of deal we Chinese are getting from western media. If you dear to challenge their value then you will be gagged. Your posting will be simply deleted as you "break the house rules". Anyone who had follow this forum knows the fact that they have successfully shut up many unwanted commedators this way. For the rest of pro-China boggers, you are just CCP paid mouth piece. A swiss newspaper claimed that the Pro-China bloggers are paid by Chinese government 5 Chinese cents for each positive posting. BBC's Michael Bristow went bit further in his report. He claimed that we are paid 50 Chinese cents for each pro-China post. Almost 30 years ago, as a student protested on Tian An Men Square, we listened to the "Voice of America" and believed every single word it said. Today, after being exposed to the western media for 10 years, the image of "free media" I once had in my head has completely collapsed. The way they lie amuses me. Who you think you can cheat? 5 cents? 50 cents? Made up your mind pls. What can you buy by 5 cents? 50 cents? in China? Michael Bristow's report is backed by no evidence at all but I think some people will take it as truth because this is about China. Whatever claim is produced no matter how little evidence is there then China is immediately guilty of the crime. That is the logic of many westerners. China has to prove to be innocent otherwise guilty.

    Western media is doing a good job to shut up all the Pro-China Chinese. Censor you first, if you pass then you are at most a paid CCP mouth piece. You have turned oversea Chinese who are exposed to the weatern media against weatern media and politics. CCP should really say thank you to BBC especially Mr Bristow. Our poor old James is not bad indeed. He also helps CCP a lot.

    Thank you BBC for your freedom of speech and thank you for discreditting all the pro-China blggers. Thank you for telling me what freedom of speech really is.

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  • 89. At 2:45pm on 18 Dec 2008, aeroarchie wrote:

    #88

    I've posted 13 comments here of which 2 were censored. Based on Michael Bristow's claim, I would have earned 11.50 Chinese yuan. Perhaps someone can tell me how and where I can collect my money as I neither live in China nor hold a Chinese passport. In the meantime, I'll continue to comment on what I believe to be misinformation on China.

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  • 90. At 7:20pm on 18 Dec 2008, bemusedkevin wrote:

    Reply to aeroarchie:

    Similarly, you seem to miss the point. The fact is you live in a capitalist world. And under this economic system, communist or democratic, the fact is growth WILL undoubtedly slow at some point in time and you WILL have to deal with global capitalist economic tides just like everyone else. It will be VERY hard for a closed communist system to deal with this. And no, economic stimulus packages do not fix problems, they simply forestall issues temporarily.

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  • 91. At 00:56am on 19 Dec 2008, funnyanotherblogger wrote:

    Oops, many typing mistakes in my last post. I think I was angry. Correct my mistakes. 20 years instead of "30". Dare to Challenge instead of "dear to challenge".

    Quote worlddonotforgettibet.

    "Yet one queries thing that I keep on observing in New york
    is that many of the Chinese oversea students tend to move in groups and tend
    not to break the isolation.Wherelse the students from other Asia countries mix freely
    with the natives and in no time talking in American accent.Is it one of the conditions that they must abide by?
    Any way I hope there will be more and more chinese like you untill the barrier is broken down.Good luck."

    You know very little about China and Chinese. Somehow you believe every single Chinese is living under the strict rules imposed by the CCP/Chinese government to the point it becomes......

    They tend to move in groups because they feel comfortable that way when their English is not sufficient. If you check early Chinese emigration history you would learn they did the same hundreds years aho. The isolation? They have ventured outside their country to learn. It is only a matter of time they will venture outside their group.

    The Chinese students are already having a label stickers on their head as an "isolated group", do they?

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  • 92. At 2:32pm on 19 Dec 2008, aeroarchie wrote:

    I made a wrong calculation in my post #89. I would have earned 5.50 Chinese yuan then. Plus another 50 Chinese cents for #89, CCP now owes me 6.00 Chinese yuan.



    #90 "bemusedkevin"

    (1) China has already suuccessfully dealt with three economic slowdown in 1981, 1990 and 1999, since it embarked on economic reform in 1978.

    (2) China is no longer a "closed communist system". It has started opening up its economy since 1978. China calls itself "socialism with Chinese characteristics" but it looks more like "capitalism with socialist characteristics". Economics is not a science. One economist would say stimulus package works (e.g. 2008 Nobel prize winner in economics Paul Krugman) while another one would say it doesn't.






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  • 93. At 5:08pm on 19 Dec 2008, topbear1974 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 94. At 7:57pm on 19 Dec 2008, Noliving wrote:

    funnyanotherblogger: All freedom of speech is just freedom to speak freely without censorship or limitation by the government.

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  • 95. At 11:12pm on 19 Dec 2008, tclim38 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 96. At 07:46am on 20 Dec 2008, worlddonotforgetibet wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 97. At 07:54am on 20 Dec 2008, worlddonotforgetibet wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 98. At 4:12pm on 21 Dec 2008, tclim38 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 99. At 4:21pm on 21 Dec 2008, tclim38 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 100. At 4:21pm on 21 Dec 2008, tclim38 wrote:

    What a deal.

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  • 101. At 04:30am on 23 Dec 2008, worlddonotforgetibet wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 102. At 10:32am on 23 Dec 2008, funnyanotherblogger wrote:

    People are enjoying freedom of speech here @ BBC.

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  • 103. At 10:36am on 23 Dec 2008, funnyanotherblogger wrote:

    Quote Nolivin:

    " All freedom of speech is just freedom to speak freely without censorship or limitation by the government."

    Is this still can be called freedom of speech? Yes? Because the censorship and limitation is by BBC, the media, probably not from the government?

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  • 104. At 10:51am on 23 Dec 2008, funnyanotherblogger wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 105. At 06:55am on 05 Jan 2009, chibonnie wrote:

    Thank your for helping us Chinese to identify our weakenesses. Reading your blog help me to know more about the other side of my country.
    I appriciate it very much. But as a Chinese I'm really proud of what my counry has achived in the past 30 years. As it's known to all, China had been invaded and many of its wealth were robbed in about 100 years ago, while England was one of the robbers. However, we struggled to move forward without invading or plundering any of the weak countries. How many developed countries dare to claim their countries are not built on the bodies and resources of the others?
    Please justly show the world a real China with weak points and strong points. Thanks.

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