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Obama's victory

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James Reynolds | 04:52 UK time, Wednesday, 5 November 2008

I've just been watching news of the Obama victory on Chinese TV (it's the second story here after an update on a trip to Taiwan by a senior Chinese official).

If you're Chinese, what do you think of Mr Obama's win? What will it mean for US-China relations?

UPDATE: Barack Obama's election victory is now attracting quite a bit of attention here. The main evening news led its programme with Mr Obama's win. Normally, the bulletin begins with pictures of Politburo members carrying out their latest activities - this usually means endless pictures of meetings held in cavernous rooms with loyal Party officials. But tonight, the first pictures in the bulletin were of Mr Obama's victory - that's very rare.

China's President Hu Jintao and the Premier Wen Jiabao have sent messages to Mr Obama congratulating him on his victory. The official statement doesn't make it clear how the messages were delivered to the president-elect (via telegram? On a silver tray?)

From what I can tell, it seems that neither man actually called Mr Obama on the phone. It may not matter that much, but I find it interesting to note that this is the way that China prefers to deal with foreign leaders - in a courtly, reserved fashion. The Communist Party prizes formality (perhaps as an antidote to the chaos that China once went through).

So Hu Jintao is unlikely to be the kind of person to start texting Barack Obama smiley faces.

Comments

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  • 1. At 05:37am on 05 Nov 2008, ellenlu2003 wrote:

    In my opinion,no matter who will be the president of USA, improvement of Sino-Amercia relation and cooperation is a very important task to tackle,which can help them to recover from economic recession.

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  • 2. At 05:56am on 05 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 3. At 06:16am on 05 Nov 2008, yetingsong wrote:

    I have never cease to be amazed by America's ability to Change, the opportunity for the wanting, the hope for those who desire. I am most amazed by, how a president can inspire not only an entire nation, but also all around the world. Indeed such sceptical does not happen anywhere on earth but in America. America is special again tonight, Americans are the lucky bunch on earth tonight.

    Americans seems always able to change whenever they are in trouble, every four/eight years it seems the new government and the president is given the clean slate (almost), misgivings of the previous governments are irrelevant, new hopes and new beginnings are being installed amongst the Americans. This is the get-out-of-jail card, this is the advantage of the America's democracy, this is an advantage almost at an irony to China's political system - the CCP, after so many years and so many generations of governments, is still getting blamed for all the wrong doings 30 years ago.

    After all the party has finished, after promising so much change, so much ideals, so much hope, after Obama begins his presidency and meet reality face to face, it remain to be seen of how much America can change.

    Democrat Presidents traditionally has a harder time with the relations to China, Democrats seems to promote protectionism of American's businesses. I am certain however, once he finally lands after so much hype, Obama will do the right thing for the interest of not only the America, but also the long term interest of the world. Friendship between America and China will do a lot of good to world.

    Congratulations to Obama, Congratulations to America, Congratulations to the Americans.

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  • 4. At 06:17am on 05 Nov 2008, galezhang wrote:

    I've just checked Obama's policies concerning China and it seems he believes in more cooperation and stronger bilateral ties but sounds somewhat arrogant which is typical of US politicians.

    My opinion is if he truly believes in conversation rather than intimidation then it's good news for both sides. Otherwise he and the American people face a tough ride ahead. You don't dig yourself out of a huge economic grave for free. Something's got to give. It'll be fun to see where the US stands in the world both economically and politically a the end of his term(s).

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  • 5. At 06:17am on 05 Nov 2008, hizento wrote:

    Like all new US presidents they all think they could handle China with threat of military action in defense of Taiwan but as we had seen from Bush they will all quickly learn to understand USA cannot pick a fight with their bankers.

    Obama will be the US president to announce that the US is no longer number 1 in the world and that China is the greatest superpower.

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  • 6. At 06:59am on 05 Nov 2008, CWAN154 wrote:

    Barack Obama is a transformational figure. he can lead the U.S. through the storm. As a chinese, i pay greatest respect to him. He fought hard, fair, it is the people who decide they want Barack Obama to become next president in the U.S. in contrast, china's political systems have its weakness. all the political figures seem to be capable of transforming the country. but thats not what they people think.

    At my uni here.. the chinese student association has brought the negative parts into the western world.. unprofessinoalism, disrespect other people's work, although this is minority of chinese, what else can the world say?
    A black man defies all the stereotype, won the respect from the world vs people who think they are capable of being transformational figures.
    wat a contrast, wat a comparison..
    Barack Obama is truly a transformational figure.
    :)

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  • 7. At 07:13am on 05 Nov 2008, taobo33 wrote:

    Great leap forward for the image of America in the world, a man can well possibly be a slave 150 years ago becomes president of the very country! This is a big event...

    I do expect a great improvement for US-China relationship. People hope Obama will think the issue twice on the aspect of thers at least I hope so, not like the president currently in the white house and his former predecessor.
    The reason American been hated by many is because its policy is too selfish. The world is now expecting Obama can bring the real change to US and makes it a USA willing to talk to solve problem but not by waving the stick in the hand.

    Good luck Obama and good luck US-China relationship in the future!

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  • 8. At 07:22am on 05 Nov 2008, CWAN154 wrote:

    Hi:
    again. In media, how could it be the 2nd news after china-taiwan trip?!! Based on facts, one transformational figure vs ???? Quoting from McCain's campaign, 'use your brain' which one is important? thats just outrageous.

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  • 9. At 07:37am on 05 Nov 2008, arjtombe wrote:

    History in the making ! 200 years of strive!
    OBAMA has made it to the Presidency of the United States of American.Yes, a black Afriacn American with direct roots to Kenya. This a big lesson to our African leaders and brothers when it comes to running for leadership.In Africa, is where you will hear:- " Kaunda is not a Zambian but a Malawian when he tried to run against Chiluba, nor Abdul Rahman Watara, an Ivorian but from Burkina faso when he ran for the Presidency of Ivory Coast, and Kiiza Besigye, an HIV positive when he ran against Museveni.

    To believers:- When a slave becomes a King, then behold! the "Day" is not far.

    Obama and McCain:- Your speeches just after the election results were out, are very touching.You are great and respectable leaders.
    African leaders, must learn from this.The two were in a war of ideas for 21 months but end up as one nation after election."No going to the bush or sharpening machetes!!"


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  • 10. At 07:47am on 05 Nov 2008, I_love_China wrote:

    congratulations on Senator Obama!
    Iam glad to hear he became the president of the United States.
    I think this is the victory of American culture. The white people in the U.S. are starting to tolerate people from diffenent minorities.
    The world can benifit a lot from the historic event.
    And the financial turmoil really did Obama a favor. I should say it is Bush helped Obama accomplished his dream.
    As for the relationship between America and China. I don't think Obama will be any difference from Bush. He is working for the interests of Americans anyway.
    Therea are still lots of conflicts between Sino-America. Maybe there will be more talks rather than quarres.
    And I hope there will be no more Iraq War, incursion of Pakistan and syria, meddling in other countris' affairs.
    But Iam afraid that's the nature of supremacy.

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  • 11. At 09:04am on 05 Nov 2008, Cantab wrote:

    Not much, there isn't much happening right now. America is too deeply engaged in the Middle East and South Asia theater. Economy and war on terror will dominate US policy for years to come. It will continue to try and play an even hand with China.

    Any single nation can not engage in more than one or two fronts.

    America has two: Middle East/South Asia + Russia

    China can not be a third.

    China herself has: India and Taiwan to deal with.

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  • 12. At 09:35am on 05 Nov 2008, freeqind wrote:

    China can't be saved by anyone else but Chinese own people. No matter what color his skin is, he is elected by the Americans and he will have no other option but serve his countrymen.
    There is no such luck for the Chinese without honest election. The irresponsible government will bring China to death throng more poisoned food, uncontroled pollution, unnumerable corrupt bureaucrats, extreme gap between the rich and the poor, excruciating one child policy that definitely will reduce work-age people but increase retired pensioners.
    What is the prospect of China?
    No free media and fare election, No hope to China.

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  • 13. At 10:13am on 05 Nov 2008, mooncake wrote:

    really, It is too early, for a Chinese like me to express any feeling towards the victory of Mr. Obama. it is well known to the world American choose Mr. Bush for the last 4 years is laid the fundation for the failure of the Republicans today.

    Despite the fact of that Mr. Bush is not doing very well for his Party, compare the two, I still more perfer Mr Obama's policies.

    and hopefully this time the American got them a better one.

    by the way, when I saw the news about how excited the people in US and UK when Mr. Obama became the President because of he is the first black one. again I confused, did those voters really had any idea what policies they are choosing?
    god bless them all.

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  • 14. At 10:26am on 05 Nov 2008, onjournalism wrote:


    Obama's victory heralds a new era of racial relations in identity/ethnicity polictics across the world. The past two centuries' world-system stars the white populations and effeebles other colours especially the black.

    That domination is going to shift and is perhaps aldready shifting, at least symbolically, with the emergence of new economic powers such as China and India.

    But the world hasn't fundamentally changed in terms of power volatility and asymmetric relations. During the Tang dynasty when the imperial China was beaming with hubris and confidence, all other peoples were considered as 'barbarians', as opposed to Chinese Han.

    What is 'new' for the current world is the increased and intensified public awareness of the differences and similarities between disparate societies/peoples wrought by advanced global communication technology.

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  • 15. At 10:45am on 05 Nov 2008, wolesms wrote:

    Obama's victory to me means that non-white classmates stop being reluctant to join projects with us, fellow black students, and see us as colleagues that we really are.

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  • 16. At 12:14pm on 05 Nov 2008, SouthLankan wrote:

    Every country gets the Leader and Government it asks for - today its Obama in USA but celebrations are shortlived - just don’t say a word when it all goes horribly wrong. May God bless America!

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  • 17. At 12:24pm on 05 Nov 2008, Leon0518 wrote:

    As a Chinese myself, I am very surprised by the US presidential election that a black man can be elected to become president, but I am happy for American people which they made their choice.
    For the Sino-America relationship, I dont think there will be much change on the ground because there is no significant difference between Republicans and Democrats in their foreign policy towards China. But when Mr Obama leads his country from next year, I think he will understands the importance of co-operates with Beijing on issues like how to solve the world economic turmoil, North Korea issue, Iranian nuclear issue and African issue.

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  • 18. At 1:00pm on 05 Nov 2008, Dougall wrote:

    To #5 Hizento - for someone who claims NOT to welcome James back you are curiously avid in your posting of comments to his blogs!

    So in your opinion America faces a decline in power, an open declaration of inferiority to China, following which China will take Taiwan by force with impunity.

    I won't hold my breath for that, but I will continue to amuse myself with your colossal delusions.

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  • 19. At 1:09pm on 05 Nov 2008, topbear1974 wrote:

    I am quite happy Obama won. A lot people focus on his color but ignore his policies. He is half white as well for god sake.


    His policies are right ones to keep USA back on the track hence the world economy. British people would not be happy as they need to work harder to get back to the American circle of power.

    For China, I hope Obama don't take in what have been spoon fed by right wings, keep chinese sovernty with Tibet, have peace trade and economic cooperation, so that both country's people would have good lives.

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  • 20. At 1:13pm on 05 Nov 2008, topbear1974 wrote:

    Another thing about chinese type of courtesy. We chinese don't rush over and queue to kiss as British you know.

    We believe working and seeing. We work hard. we provide help to friends. But we don't do lardy dardy talking.

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  • 21. At 1:23pm on 05 Nov 2008, aeroarchie wrote:

    Hu and Wen couldn't have text their congratulations to Obama because their messages are too long for SMS.

    Though Obama is likely to be tougher to China on trade, he is less likely to sell more weapons to Taiwan. So overall, US-China relations should improve during Obama presidency.

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  • 22. At 1:51pm on 05 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    To BBC, I find your banning of my posts very arbitrary. I will post the same post to other BBC blogs. I will see if they will also ban me. From my personal experience at your blog, I say you have poor respect to diversity of opinions. You have little tolerance to different views.

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  • 23. At 1:51pm on 05 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    From my first hand experience, the Chinese Neighborhood Committee (Ju Min Wei Yuan Hui) is an organization from the people, by the people and for the people. The people working there are retirees who are willing to devote time to serve the community. I thoroughly enjoyed their spring and summer trips to the beach, summer campus to lose weight, repeated trips to the suburb and frequent foreign movie shows. I want this organization to go strong and bigger. The closest Western counter part is the Christian Youth group YMCA or Boy/Girl scout. Of course, the Chinese version is better. We are not forced to worship and/or pray in Neighborhood Committee.

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  • 24. At 1:52pm on 05 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    Some Neighborhood Committee also supervise venders in a Da Yuan. For example, there was a farmer who sells normal egg as salted ones. We complained to the Neighborhood Committee. So, when the next time the farmer came, we caught him and got our money back.
    This is why the Westerners, who speak no Chinese, who have no understanding of China, who never lived as Chinese in China, who never experienced the superior freedom of China, who are fed with cold war propagandas, could possibly mistaken them as “spying” on the people.
    I find it is unacceptable that Westerners keep bash China with such insulting distortion.

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  • 25. At 2:04pm on 05 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    The election is a joke. Nothing and no one will change in the profoundly racist West.

    Voting gives you absolutely nothing. Democracy is a childish joke. Western democracy is not a representative system. Politicians are not responsible for the people. They are funded by CEOs, mafias and religion. They cannot care any less about ordinary people. The politicians simply lie. You are "voting" for a shade. You have no clue about the money and power play behind the scene.

    Westerners are brainwashed to believe in democracy which is the worst political system on earth.

    A successful human does not have speech freedom. A politician cannot say what he wants; neither can a CEO. Only total losers have speech freedom because they have nothing left to lose. We Chinese have passed the primitive stage. I don't understand why the West must force their barbarism to China.

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  • 26. At 2:06pm on 05 Nov 2008, beijing_2008 wrote:

    "I've just been watching news of the Obama victory on Chinese TV (it's the second story here after an update on a trip to Taiwan by a senior Chinese official)."

    Oh no! China had the audacity to give priority to its own piece of historical news? Shame on China!

    This author should realise that the British Empire no longer exists. The idea that the world should revolve around Britain and the US is arrogance of the highest order.





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  • 27. At 2:07pm on 05 Nov 2008, thisisacryforhelp wrote:

    James is back, foreign ministry is nervous.

    --
    To yetingsong(the 3rd commentator),

    The communist party has not officially apologized for any of its wrongdoings.

    So why can't people blame on a ruling party's wrongdoings?

    Does it also mean that Americans should accept whatever card fate - or the state - might deal - by not blaming ie. the Bush administration for what they have done wrong? If not, why should Chinese?

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  • 28. At 3:26pm on 05 Nov 2008, royalskeptcism wrote:

    we'll see.

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  • 29. At 5:00pm on 05 Nov 2008, Dougall wrote:

    Timbatu - what on earth can you possibly mean by "the profoundly racist west"? In what way is the racism found in the "west" any less profound than that found in the east? Do eastern civilisations have a monopoly on racial tolerance and understanding that has evaded our inferior intellects?

    As part of your rapt endorsements of the liberating restrictions of a totalitarian system of government you accuse us westerners of being "brainwashed". I have heard this often on the responses to James's blogs and it always seems to come from those I would characterise as the most ultra-nationalist, narrow minded communist party mouthpieces one could possibly imagine. Please explain to me why it is I who am brainwashed and not you.

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  • 30. At 8:01pm on 05 Nov 2008, endyjai wrote:

    I am still personally astonished by Palin's vice inclusion. Crazy business.

    I hope Obama can pull from his roots the understanding between minorities, and not let the elitist tendencies and money makers remove him from this.

    Good luck and America's wound healing in regards to international respect.

    James, how do you know that the Chinese officials didn't sent Obama a personal message via the telephone? Did you ask them?

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  • 31. At 8:59pm on 05 Nov 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:

    The present US policy is to foster India as a counter-weight to China.

    Will that change?

    Government departments develop a certain inertia in that they tend to continue doing what they have been doing.

    Perhaps China could use some of its US Treasury bonds to buy and reorganize American businesses?

    (However, the concept of "harmony" is not well appreciated in the USA).

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  • 32. At 9:33pm on 05 Nov 2008, KennethWu wrote:

    'Normally, the bulletin begins with pictures of Politburo members carrying out their latest activities - this usually means endless pictures of meetings held in cavernous rooms with loyal Party officials. But tonight, the first pictures in the bulletin were of Mr Obama's victory - that's very rare.'

    nice to have you back james


    In reference to the above quote, oh james, why are trying so hard to make china sound like a hardcore communist country where everything is staged and faked? And the CCP has no charisma and is totally boring? Why are you trying to make china sound like a mindless drone? with no highlights or interests?


    let me switch that paragraph around for you, so its relevant to current situtation in the UK,


    'Normally, the bulletin begins with pictures urban youth gangs carrying out their latest activities - this usually means endless pictures of mobs on street corners with knives and guns. But tonight, the first pictures in the bulletin were of Mr Obama's victory - that's very rare.'

    See, it doesn't paint a very good picture of Britain does it? its not a particularly accurate picture of Britain either.

    So to conclude my point, next time avoid building up on the stereotype that 'all chinese people are being brainwashed daily by the CCP through the news' and that 'chinese politics and political figures hace no mind and is boring'. I always thought the job of journalists was to dispel myths rumours that leads to these stereotypes. Please inform me if i m wrong.




    to post 27




    'The communist party has not officially apologized for any of its wrongdoings.

    So why can't people blame on a ruling party's wrongdoings?

    Does it also mean that Americans should accept whatever card fate - or the state - might deal - by not blaming ie. the Bush administration for what they have done wrong? If not, why should Chinese?'


    i don't think you are completely correct (or wrong), its unfair to say the CCP hasn't apologised before, i m sure they apologised for the SARS screw up and various other public mess ups that sparked huge responses. But they do need to start apologising alot more, wounds take time to heal, and sometimes, apologies takes time to come by, eg, it took japan half a centuary to apologise for the atrocities of WWII, and it took the KMT a couple of decades to apologise for 2.8. you get my drift.


    i think yetingsong(the 3rd commentator) was commenting on the fact that just because a organisation or a person has done something wrong a long time ago, it doesn't mean they should still be held up at gun point for it, considering most of the mistakes were made by 1st, 2nd generation CCP leaders who are mostly already dead by now, why should the current CCP take up all the blame for the past actions of a few old if not dead men/women? Thats like saying if a father dies in prison before his sentence ends, his son should take up the father's position in prison. Using america as an example, just because the republican party (lincoln's party) signed the emancipation proclamation, does that mean all african americans should vote republican, because the party did somethin right 200 years ago? ofcourse (and obviously) not.


    Back to jame's original question.

    I really don't know how having obama will really affect china, looking at if from a plain prespective, both US and china are huge nations, with huge national interests in the world, and sometimes these interests will inevitably clash, and competition between the 2 are just hotting up. So to say America-sino relationship will dramatically change will be almost certainly wrong, but the major variable factors comes to how the president of both countries will resolve these issues, will america send another spy plane over hainan? will china still keep on ignoring america's comments on chinese human rights? who knows, only time will tell.

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  • 33. At 9:58pm on 05 Nov 2008, MidnightJunkie wrote:

    timbatu, are you really serious?

    You speak like an authority on Western culture and Democracy. Tell me, what are your qualifications?

    "a successful human does not have free speech"..."Westerners are brainwashed to believe in democracy which is the worst political system in the world"..."Voting gives you absolutely nothing. Democracy is a childish joke."..."nothing will change in the profoundly racist west"

    >Bear in mind, you are free to state your opinions on this blog, but once you take them for granted as facts, you will have to back up your statements with pertinent, verifiable data. Otherwise, statements such as the ones you made above will be considered as opinions only, and in my point of view, not really worth considering.

    >Now as to your mistaken view that James think that the Chinese Neighborhood Committees are spying on the people, I suggest you go back to the offending paragraph again. Here's the transcript:

    "When you wander about Cuba, you tend to bump into things that remind you of China. On many streets there are signs for the local "Comite de la Defensa de la Revolucion" (Committee for the Defence of the Revolution) - the local neighbourhood organisation that keeps an eye on people's lives, similar to work units in China. Each party has managed to stay in power because of its ability to make its presence felt on every street, and in every house. "

    >James was talking about the Cuban neighborhood organisation. They are the ones keeping an eye on people's lives. James was only noting that there are similar organisations like that in China, just like the Ju Min Wei Yuan Hui, but not once did he say both fulfill the same duties. James could have written something like this:

    "On many streets there are signs for the local "Comite de la Defensa de la Revolucion" (Committee for the Defence of the Revolution) - the local neighbourhood organisation that keeps an eye on people's lives like the ones in China."

    >It was tasteless, yes, and can be easily misunderstood as more China-bashing. You can be forgiven for thinking that James meant to demean your neighborhood committees, although I am sure that they are wonderful, just as you say they are. But on the same note, please try to study more about the so-called West before making the assumptions above. But if you really believe your statements to be true, I challenge you provide proof for them.

    Temper, temper.

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  • 34. At 00:40am on 06 Nov 2008, bbscoukuser wrote:

    as some once wisely put:
    just hope after 4 years, american do not only have changes in their pocket.

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  • 35. At 00:42am on 06 Nov 2008, bbscoukuser wrote:

    as all know democratic party is usually more hostile to china in the history. it is understandable that chinese leaders did not show great joy. just congratulated out of politeness.

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  • 36. At 01:21am on 06 Nov 2008, CWAN154 wrote:

    To #25 timbatu:

    Hi, if you explain that your comments are being banned.

    May i suggest, could your comment please be based on evidence, facts rather than amateur one-side lecture ? i.e. eveything about west is bad.

    could you give us some elaborate explanations? based on facts not your personal opinion?

    Quote 'Democracy is a childish joke'

    you know that all you need to do to abolish democracy is to become a transformational figure who can change all of these..

    I welcome your POLITE, logical comments rather than bad language.

    thank you

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  • 37. At 03:36am on 06 Nov 2008, jdoc091b wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 38. At 09:04am on 06 Nov 2008, heyone wrote:

    To #25

    This is interesting. You seem to think China's politicians represents people better than their American counterparts. It would be interesting if you could elaborate more on that, how is Wen Jia Bao kept accountable for his government's performance?? Is there a mechanism to kick him out if he turns out to be the wrong person to lead the country? In what way does he represent Chinese people ??

    Perhaps these questions aren't relevant to you at all since in your view, the Chinese government can't be wrong and there's no need for any kind of mechanism to monitor your government.

    It also quite funny how you say only losers need freedom of speech but at the same time you are complaining about BBC banning some of your previous comments. I suppose you aren't one of those losers are you ?

    Perhaps with Obama's ridiculous policies American people will soon realise how bad their system is and soon you will find illegal immigrants from America enjoying your 'superior freedom' in China.

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  • 39. At 10:00am on 06 Nov 2008, MidnightJunkie wrote:

    Moderators, too busy celebrating Obama's victory to update blog comments?

    Timing the window for posting blogs comments, I'd say that moderators on this blog update the posts from 1pm- 4:00pm UK time.

    I don't really think that's enough time.

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  • 40. At 11:27am on 06 Nov 2008, AverageChinese wrote:

    No matter who is the president of USA, sino-US relationship will remain the same. It will always be based on Trade and Taiwan.

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  • 41. At 2:11pm on 06 Nov 2008, Xlbfan wrote:

    #24/ 25:

    I have lived in China, and it most definately does not have "superior freedom".
    Of course democracy isn't perfect, especially I would say the American system, however it is far better than the alternative of a one party state. No politician can be completely trusted which is why the population needs a way to replace them from time to time and hold them to account.

    Denouncing the entire west as "profoundly racist" also does far more to emphasize a lack of a broad mind.

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  • 42. At 5:10pm on 06 Nov 2008, haachang wrote:

    to #41 regarding # 25,
    I think I partially agree with #25. As a foreigner living in America, a lot of times I observe things this way. I think it's great to be a idealist or a dreamer, but in the end I realize how naive even ridiculous it is.

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  • 43. At 5:30pm on 06 Nov 2008, dennisjunior1 wrote:

    James:
    Thanks for the excellent blog....

    It is a victory for Obama and for the start to do work in the world.

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  • 44. At 8:36pm on 06 Nov 2008, waikikisam wrote:

    Probably, the U.S.-China relationship will not be on top of the totem pole of the Obama administration's agenda. There are just too many issues that need more immediate attention such as the financial market, the economy, the Iraq war, health care...etc. Nevertheless, towards China, I think Obama will take a tougher stand than the Bush administration. As an African American, people relate him to Martin Luther King and human right which is non-existent in China. In trade, he had indicated that he will try to bring the jobs back to the U.S. in his campaign; which means an increase in import taxes or tougher quotas - bad news for China whose economy depends heavily in export. It is important that the Chinese government starts to take diligent action in developing a domestic market.

    From the rumor mills, I heard that during the Olympic, the Chinese government issue a directive to all the pubs and restaurants asked them not to cater to Africans (in general, black people) who tend to make trouble. I just wish to God that this is not true.

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  • 45. At 10:39pm on 06 Nov 2008, Roy wrote:

    I think it is sad that the CCP is already trying to 'bully' Obama into not recognising Taiwan's democratic society. I hope Obama uses good judgement on this. Of course confrontation should be avoided but the CCP, as we have seen with the way they treat the Dalai Lama, like to say one thing and do another, in Chinese it's called "zhi lu wei ma" (pointing to a deer while calling it a horse)

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  • 46. At 00:46am on 07 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 47. At 00:54am on 07 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    Quote: “It was tasteless, yes, and can be easily misunderstood as more China-bashing.”

    #33 MidnightJunkie,

    I agree with this one remark of you.

    I lived in China for almost 20 years. I lived in the West for another 20 years. I speak both languages fluently. I understand both cultures thoroughly.

    This is a qualification, NONE, repeat NONE, of the Westerners posting here have.

    I don’t understand what proof you want? What do you want me to proof?

    Do you mean the West is not Christian?!

    Do you mean the West is not racist?

    Are you blind? Or, are you in denial?




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  • 48. At 01:06am on 07 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    To #36 CWAN154,

    Are you asking me for evidence?!

    I thought you have *free* media!?

    Sean Bell is nothing new. In Detroit, the Chinese American Vincent Chin was brutally murdered using baseball bat by two Caucasian men. Both of the white men were exonerated by the white judge and white jury. Despite large scale Asian protests, the white murders NEVER serve any jail terms.

    Is this how wonderful democracy is?!

    Is this how the West respects Freedom, Equality and Human Rights?!

    How about the repeated LA minority massacre?

    How many Black Panthers are murdered and jailed? How many Native American activists are murdered and jailed? How many Muslims are murdered and jailed?

    Does the Muslim concentration camp – Guantanamo – ring a bell? Obama will NOT close it any time soon. There I said it.

    How about Waco massacre? The corpus of a 3 year old Waco child contains bullets weight 7 lbs ...

    Why kill children so brutally? Where are Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International?! I see, these despicable Western Human Right organizations are paid by the West to criticize others. They never bite the feeding hands. AI receive 40% funding from the Catholic church. Shame to religious bigotry!

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  • 49. At 01:14am on 07 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    To #38,

    What do you mean by “representing people”?
    Do you know anyone, who is not in your family, which truly represents you?!


    What do you mean by “monitoring a government”?
    Do you know anyone, who is still alive, which monitors the behaviors of CIA or the UK special-cops?


    Is it not self-evident that MORE Europeans have migrated to the US?! All Asians together, all Chinese included, is less than 5% US population. What is the percentage of European migrants?

    What is wrong with living back in Europe?!

    Are these not obvious to you?

    Human society is much more complex than the thin propaganda of democracy.

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  • 50. At 01:18am on 07 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    To #41 Xlbfan,

    Democrats and Republicans are NOT one black and one white.

    The actuality is that they do not necessarily oppose each other.

    There is no natural law, nor social law that prevents them from representing the same group of people.

    You are told that they are opposite. You wishfully think they are two different views, while they are not.

    They are simply plan A and plan B from the same power.

    Got it!?!?

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  • 51. At 06:53am on 07 Nov 2008, Renee1112 wrote:

    It's too early to tell what Obama means to US-China relation. I think whoever is elected as US president, US's policy to China won't change much. Every US president knows US-China relation is so significant to both sides, so no one will do too much harm to anger China and Chinese. But they are unwilling to let China too happy and they will try to make some trouble to China with any chances on hand. That's what we see all these decades.

    So let's wait and see.

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  • 52. At 12:58pm on 07 Nov 2008, Walsh of Wembley wrote:

    Timbatu/Voodoohaze:

    Why would any westerners want to live in China for twenty years? To suffer constant racism and ridicule? When I walk down the street in China, people snigger and should 'foreigner'. When Chinese people walk down the street in the UK do people do the same? Who is racist now?

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  • 53. At 2:28pm on 07 Nov 2008, pavlov1849 wrote:

    Welcome back James

    Hope you enjoyed your time in Cuba

    It may have been better spent studying mandarin and history of the country you report - with a view to improving the "insight" in your blog and reporting

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  • 54. At 2:39pm on 07 Nov 2008, Xlbfan wrote:

    Looks like Timbatu is the one that doesn't get it. Of course they are similar, and there are weaknesses in the system, but it still beats a one-party state where the law comes second to political control. The CCP bullies those who speak out too publicly and largely gets away with it because its not elected. Sure, the Replicans and Democrats are the same in many ways, but there is still a choice which is better than none.

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  • 55. At 10:03pm on 07 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    To #44,

    Obama accepted telephone calls from nine world leaders.

    They are Australia, Canada, France, Germany, UK, Israel, Mexico, Japan and South Korea.

    There is none from the continent of Africa!

    I have a white-coaler African American friend Elisha. He says he is brown, not black. He says he has nothing to do with Africa. The countries he wants to go most are Ireland and Japan.

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  • 56. At 10:16pm on 07 Nov 2008, CWAN154 wrote:

    To timbatu:

    thank you for providing evidence. I'm currently having my uni exams (end of year period is always busy)

    This means im unable to give you a comprehensive explanation.

    But ill get back as soon as i finish my university exams (providing James Reynold does not start another blog very soon)

    Thank you for your understanding :)

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  • 57. At 04:07am on 08 Nov 2008, MidnightJunkie wrote:

    #47-50 timbatu,

    You don't understand. What you do is you support your allegations with separate instances or events. You say that you've lived in the West for 20 years. In what countries have you lived, which cities, and for how long?

    Even if I conceded that your definition of the "West" only includes North America and Europe, 20 years is still not enough time to give you the right to say that you understand, for example, Scandinavian culture, or define the Russia as a democracy(it is still part of the "West" as you call it), or even assert that the French are all racists. You will even be wrong when you say that the U.S. is a Christian country.

    Although predominantly Christian, there are plenty of Jews, Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists and even Atheists living in the U.S. who consider themselves American citizens, and would be very offended if you label them Christians as well.

    The "Proof", or evidence I want from you, is solid evidence that will make me believe that the U.S. is not a 2-party system, that the Democratic and Republican parties are only 2 sides of the same coin, which by your opinion, is the Christian Elite. Can you give that to me?

    Human society is indeed complex, so complex than living 20 years in China and 20 years in the West is not enough to give you an understanding of it.

    Your examples in #48, though tragic, is still not enough to give you the right to say that democracy is the worst political system in the world.

    The problem with you is that you try to fit every single westerner into one narrow mold. It's not a one-size-fits-all thing. Although it is politically correct to say that Cantonese, Sichuan, Shanghai, and Peking cooking is Chinese cuisine, It's another thing to say that they all taste the same. This is also the same with Western culture and government.

    Do you understand what I'm trying to talk about?

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  • 58. At 04:25am on 09 Nov 2008, CWAN154 wrote:

    To timbatu:

    Ill respond to my best knowledge.

    Freedom is gurantteed, this means that anyone can say anything at any time without any thinking through. this is the reason why evidence is very important to back up your freedom. Without evidence, no one is gonna believe in you, because of too much fake info flowing around the internet.

    'the Chinese American Vincent Chin was brutally murdered'-
    this happened in June 1982, without any further search, this is the time when whites are the majority, whereas the rest are minority. the case u are referring to is too out-of-date to be any further use in today's world. i.e. society is constantly changing. 20 years ago has no representative of today's society.

    'Sean Bell'
    Sorry...i only have time to respond to the 1st one... ill be back ASAP..

    thank you for your patience

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  • 59. At 11:16pm on 09 Nov 2008, CWAN154 wrote:

    Hi:
    Due to our deep concern with the up-date of new approvals.

    May the kindly people around the corners of the world ask 'Is James Reynold still in working state?'

    Also, could James Reynold announce any expected absences due to work in the near future? i.e. october- november period.

    The absence period will cause deep concerns for us.

    Thank you

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  • 60. At 2:59pm on 10 Nov 2008, worlddonotforgetibet wrote:

    23. At 1:51pm on 05 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:
    Hi,timbatu! what are you gibbering
    about!
    Our view points must be concise,factual,
    substantial
    and responsible.Believe me the bbc is the most respected media in the World and it is highly unlikelythat she would risk her reputation over incoherent writers like us.
    So,rest assured and make hay while the sun shines.
    c.t. new york

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  • 61. At 3:25pm on 10 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 62. At 3:30pm on 10 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    To Xlbfan #54,

    China, under CCP, has achieved unprecedented economical miracles.
    Compared to the suffering of third-world democracies, from India, to Africa, I say CCP is the best.

    At the end of the day, people care more about money – this is a reality staunchly ignored by the Western Christian ideologues.

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  • 63. At 3:44pm on 10 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 64. At 5:23pm on 10 Nov 2008, zhexuejia wrote:

    If you lived in China for any length of time, you'd know it's clear that racism is not anywhere near as serious a problem here as in almost *any* Western country. People shouting 'foreigner' (more usually shouting 'hello' - they'd whisper 'foreigner' in Chinese to their friends not say it to you) at you as you walk is racism? There are about 200 foreigners in my city of about 9 million, and I don't really see the 'foreigner' thing here, apart from people coming into the city from the countryside (eg. at the train station, in the outskirts). Many of these people have literally never seen a 'real live foreigner', a white/black face, in their lives. I know this is hard for Western people to understand with such a long (er... 50-60 years) history of seeing foreign faces on the street, but it's true. You simply cannot imagine what this is like if you've lived all your life in most countries in the West. Imagine seeing a talking, clothed monkey walking down the street. Are you telling me you wouldn't point him out to your friend? Most Chinese people are simply intensely curious about foreigners.

    As for political parties, come on, how are Labour and the Tories remotely different in any substantive sense? Sure, they differ on certain policies, but then of course there are liberal CCP members and conservative CCP members (amongst other differences). What, not a monolithic faceless univocal Party? Do people not realise 1984 was an idealisation? Western political differences are almost entirely expressed explicitly by name (this party or that), in China difference is internal to the party. There's not the same need to tow the party line because there's no opposition to square off against, no multinational-owned papers to suck up to or worry about. The result? Politicians can sit down and discuss the best policy for the country, without worrying about some opposition member or tabloid hack making a quick buck or scoring a cheap point by slating the decision. Of course there's no immediate mechanism to get your voice heard in Beijing if you're a peasant in Henan, but do you have this option in the UK or US? All politics is mediated and all politics faces the problem of corruption, the West's just as much as China's. Try reading Private Eye before you complain about Chinese local corruption...

    Similarly, both countries have good and bad leaders: Jiang Zemin was hated by many Chinese, Hu Jintao and (especially) Wen Jiabao are almost universally liked. Bush/Blair/Brown were/are also hated by many, and these US/UK people had/have equally no chance of getting rid of their disliked leaders. Wait 4 years? 50% of the US didn't want Bush, what good was waiting for them? Tough, the majority rules in democracy, you might reply? What if the majority decide they hate Jews? Or Muslims? What if the majority will believe whatever the Sun/Daily Mail tells them about immigrants? Neither political system is perfect. Both have their own rules, and if you break them you'll be made to pay. I wouldn't be able to express my true opinion about 'terrorism' in public in the UK without fear of arrest. How is this better than China in any sense?

    Of course China isn't perfect, but neither are Western countries. Chinese people, including those in the party, know their country isn't perfect, they know what problems it has and what needs to be changed, but these things take time. You understand that China has 1/5 of the population of the world, about a third of whom are still under-educated 'peasants' scraping out an existence on small farms? The UK has about the same population as my province, which I'd bet 95+% of UK people have never even heard of. The key point: at least China is heading in the right direction; this is more than can be said for the UK (I'll exempt the US for now, based on their recent electoral decision). I'm optimistic about the political future in China; I wouldn't be surprised if the UK ends up barely better than the dystopia of 'V for Vendetta' with added Creationism, Mosaic baby profiling and biometric ID cards for good luck. Despite all the problems with China, I know where I'd rather live and it ain't 'Cool' Britannia.

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  • 65. At 5:30pm on 10 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    Talking about speech freedom, why was the Irish satire “No One is More Irish than Obama” removed from youTube?

    It was such a popular-hit and a national-disgrace.

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  • 66. At 6:27pm on 10 Nov 2008, WTYLER wrote:

    What was so bad about relations with China before Obama? Now we are going to have a president that will be negligent about the 1984 like policies the Khitai Government has on her people and the ethnic cleansing of Uyghurs and Tibetans. That is why China is happy. Obama is going to be as thuggish as the Chinese government has been ever since the 1940s

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  • 67. At 03:53am on 11 Nov 2008, CWAN154 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 68. At 09:39am on 11 Nov 2008, Cantab wrote:

    zhexuejia : "If you lived in China for any length of time, you'd know it's clear that racism is not anywhere near as serious a problem here as in almost *any* Western country. "

    Is this a joke? China is probably more culturally racist than most. I am mainland Chinese, and I am ashamed that we are so myopic and look down on "lesser" cultures. You don't see much racism in China because there isn't immigration. When foreigners compete in millions for Chinese homeland jobs, i wonder if zhexuejia will say the same?

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  • 69. At 12:47pm on 11 Nov 2008, zhexuejia wrote:

    "Is this a joke? China is probably more culturally racist than most. I am mainland Chinese, and I am ashamed that we are so myopic and look down on "lesser" cultures. You don't see much racism in China because there isn't immigration. When foreigners compete in millions for Chinese homeland jobs, i wonder if zhexuejia will say the same?"

    Culturally racist? In what sense? The Chinese are intensely proud of their culture, yes. Many, especially those without much exposure to foreign culture, think the Chinese way is *always* the best and are closed-minded to other possibilities, yes. But racist? I don't see it. Look, any foreigner can come to China and immediately earn more than hundreds of millions of Chinese do, yet I see no envy or anger in response, only admiration (like 'good work if you can get it!'). I know 19 year old foreign teachers with no qualifications who've come here to earn easy money for a year, and the experienced Chinese teachers they work with have no problem with the fact these guys can immediately out-earn them for far fewer hours' work per week. Compare that to the attitude of many Brits to someone coming to the UK and getting paid peanuts to do jobs that no British person wants to do anyway to see what real racism and xenophobia looks like.

    There's definitely lots of suspicion of the 'outside' in China, yes. But I don't see this manifesting itself as racism except in certain cases, ie. certain Chinese thinking that black or other Asian people can't be good English teachers, even if they're from the UK or US. But this is really just down to ignorance: an immigration official once asked an Indian friend of mine born in London who was coming to China: 'But how can you be an English teacher? You're not from England', whereupon my friend pointed to the 'Place of Birth' section of his passport. It's the same with the attitude that 'no foreigners can speak Chinese' (except Da Shan or whoever). It's annoying to get this all the time, but then until a few years ago very very few foreigners in China could speak Chinese. Or the attitude that 'all foreigners just want to sleep with Chinese girls and then run off back to their home country'. That's generally true, but it doesn't mean it's true in every case. In my experience however, most Chinese are quite willing to revise their opinions about things like this if you can show them some concrete evidence.

    The only possible exception to all this might be in regard to the Japanese, but even here when faced with a real Japanese person I don't see the Chinese having any problem. They're quite happy to allow that I can be British yet totally detest what my country did to China 100-200 years ago during the Opium Wars and the destruction of the Yuanmingyuan palace, and the same with regard to a Japanese person who comes to China and shows some kind of historical awareness (eg. foreign Japanese teachers). Doesn't mean they love Japanese culture (though many kids do nowadays), but why should they? The Chinese are traditionally very conservative, they're happy with their own culture and don't see the need to change or adopt those of others. But of course even this is changing with today's Chinese youth.

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  • 70. At 2:49pm on 11 Nov 2008, MidnightJunkie wrote:

    I'm a little disappointed in you moderators.

    After waiting a whole day just to read timbatu's posts, you ruin all the fun by banning all except 2?(1 here, 1 in the earlier debate).

    pity.

    Anyway, interesting post xuejia, I'm hoping to hear more from you.

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  • 71. At 3:15pm on 11 Nov 2008, Xlbfan wrote:

    I'm disappointed that you seem to lurch to the conclusion that I am christian. I am not.

    Who says that India is not doing well these days? Using them or Africa as examples doesn't mean democracy is bad. What's worst in Africa are the wars which break out frequently, not giving any political process a chance.

    Of course the CCP has done well on the economy. On the other hand, the problem of having capitalism with one party rule is corruption. Illegal land seizures have also robbed many of their livelihoods while dishonest and unelected officials get rich. This is a huge problem that can't be solved under the present system. In the end, it is worse for the peoples' wellbeing.

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  • 72. At 03:19am on 12 Nov 2008, spacedrive wrote:

    The White House was build by slaves but Obama hasn't got any slave ancestors. He is not considered as black or afro-american.
    In the time of slavery in the USA there was the 'one drop rule'. That meant one 'drop of black blood' was enough to be black. The slaveholders wanted with the help of that rule mixt race, a result of raping slave women, to work as
    slaves. By this act of violence they could increase the number of slaves for working on the plantages.
    There is no more reason for one blood rule. In case of Obama , he is of caucasian, arab and black-african origin. He has got the right to build up his entire personality on the base of his family roots.
    If you can't follow these facts you must not . Think of your own heritage and family. It is not your right to interfere in other person's family background.
    You have your own background.
    I welcomed the victory of Obama not of his race but of his charismatic appearance that could emphazise my expectation that he brings change to his country. I hope he will also manage to bring change to the world in a peaceful way, but I think that he won't fulfill that task everwhere in a peaceful manner. I believe that in some parts of the world he might throw bombs to achieve change. Every president is confronted with war. Let's see how the future will be with America's coming new President. Congratulation.

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  • 73. At 06:22am on 12 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 74. At 06:23am on 12 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    The Chinese "atrocities against religion" are 100% lies made up by Christian West. Anyone who speaks Chinese fluently, and lives there for 10+ years can verify. Do a youTube search on Jew Brew. Christian-lies serve to promote hatred and exclusion of Chinese influence. The Christian churches are bloodily insecure about their Santa for adults. They know they are inferior to Chinese philosophy. This is why they use childhood indoctrination to desperately maintain their control of followers.
    Christianity must stop indoctrinate hatred and racism to its children.

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  • 75. At 9:58pm on 12 Nov 2008, Walsh of Wembley wrote:

    zhexuejia, I would say from my experience that racism in China runs deeper than you care to realise. After all, would the best judge of such matters not be an outsider themselves?

    I have witnessed Chinese racism on several levels, perhaps the most clear when I was accompanied by a visitor from America - a black girl who came to stay in the city where I was living for a short while. This was the cause of much hysteria amongst the local population. My Chinese boss (in some perverse 1980's type ‘danwei’ attitude) forbid me from accompanying her and the women in the street came to tug her hair in disbelief. I have also witnessed discrimation amongst disabled people on a sickening level, but that's for a different day.

    I would also say that charging different rates in hotels, one for foreigners, one for Chinese, is a form of prejudice (even though I realise this is based on the ubiquitous Chinese belief that all foreigners are rich when in reality your average middle-class Chinese family have more in savings than your average European or North American family – especially if mortgages are deducted).

    Using the unfortunate allegory of "a talking, clothed monkey walking down the street", I do not see how a foreigner, which even the Chinese from the countryside have seen on TV, can be compared with some sort of bizarre PG Tips traveling show (and if you understood that I’ll know you’re not really from mainland China as I suspect from your English ;-).

    Finally, a message to the BBC: I pay you guys 11 quid a month - so why on earth should you all decide to have the 12th November off as holiday!? And if you send me one of those messages saying the ‘forum has now closed’ after I’ve typed all this and then let other people post after me, as you are prone to doing….

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  • 76. At 6:31pm on 13 Nov 2008, zhexuejia wrote:

    Senlin:

    I understand what you're saying with your examples but I really don't think this is racism. Re 'pulling her hair in disbelief' - when was this? Doesn't sound like something you'd see very often today, especially not in the cities. This also seems to me more like absolute fascination than racism - I've heard similar stories from blonde foreigners with blue eyes (especially babies or young children) who equally get stared at and pawed, especially in poorer areas. But again I think this is just amazement: everyone in these areas has basically the same hair/eyes/skin, so to see someone so different is amazing to them. So foreigners clearly don't get treated *equally* in China, but I don't think this is necessarily in a negative way, except for your example of paying more in hotels! You can say the same about ripping off foreigners in markets. But then once they know you can speak a bit of Chinese and know what a fair price is, they're pretty quick to stop this! Again it's more about exploiting ignorance than about any kind of racism, and also part of the 'bargaining' culture in China.

    The lack of exposure to foreign culture outside the very developed areas in China is still quite shocking. China was almost totally closed off to foreigners until 25 years ago, and it's only in the past 10 or so years that foreigners have come in large numbers, and even then they don't ever come to the vast majority of small villages in the countryside. And seeing people on TV simply isn't the same: for one there aren't even that many foreigners on Chinese TV, especially on the kind of channels watched by the poorer Chinese. And seeing something on TV doesn't remove the fascination of seeing it moving and talking in front of you; I've seen all kinds of animals on TV but I still go to zoos and safari parks or nature reserves to see them 'in the flesh'. You can see the difference especially clearly if you go to both Beijing and somewhere unknown in the countryside: in Beijing you won't even get a second glance anywhere except the train station where those from the countryside are arriving or leaving, in the countryside you'll get stared at by *every* single person and shouts of 'hello' every 5 minutes. This does feel weird (many people say it's like being a circus attraction), but I wouldn't want to call it racism: there doesn't seem to be any negative intent at all.

    As for disabled discrimination, yes this is indeed a problem but one more about the lack of government support for these people: they're thus forced (often literally at the hands of 'pimps') to beg on the streets for a living, and often to exaggerate their problems to get more sympathy (eg. to bare their serious burns or disfigurements in public, even in Harbin where it's -20 degrees). This kind of thing is however also common in other poorer developing countries and I don't think is specific to China. Doesn't make it less shocking though.

    And yes, you're right I'm not from China (mainland or otherwise), though I am an 'honorary Chinese' apparently! Learning Chinese really does make all the difference here, Chinese people are so keen to chat to foreigners: once they realise they can actually talk to you in their own language, the fascination quickly turns from amazement into wanting to find out as much as possible. I had a great experience this summer when my family came to visit me in China and, as it was summer and hot at night, we sat on the main 'historical street' in a small city (Datong) and had a beer - very soon we had a sizable crowd around us asking questions and very interested in us. I guess the much-praised 'European cafe culture' has yet to make it to small-town Shanxi province... I suppose you might say this was 'racism' but my family thought it was great! They went back to the UK all saying how lovely and friendly the Chinese were and how it was fantastic to see old people out on the streets chatting and walking in the evenings, instead of being shut up in old people's homes drugged up in front of the TV.

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  • 77. At 03:51am on 14 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    To #71 Xlbfan,

    Who told you that democracy can stomp out corruption?

    The reverse is observed.

    The politicians took money from the power clique behind the scene. Why would they serve the people? They serve *lip service* to the people. The parties are plan A and plan B of the same group. They control you 100 per cent. If you want to rebel, read about the Black Panther Party first!

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  • 78. At 1:00pm on 14 Nov 2008, Walsh of Wembley wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 79. At 3:12pm on 14 Nov 2008, ozcitizen wrote:

    just a reminder that mr bush said he will achieve peace in palistine, by the time his term was up. will obama achieve peace or will he side with israel as we have witnessed for many years, if bush fails......

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  • 80. At 3:39pm on 14 Nov 2008, Xlbfan wrote:

    Timbatu,

    I told me. Disagreeing with you doesn't mean someone told me what I think.

    Corruption exists in all countries regardless of political system, but more officials in China probably get away with it because the CCP self-regulates and controls the courts and the law, not the other way round. I saw this in China, and have heard it from many Chinese also.

    Choice A & B may seem very similar, but I still prefer to have that choice to kick one side out when it becomes more corrupt and arrogant, and be free from fear of speaking out publicly and openly. Democracy is the lesser of 2 evils for me. If you're trying to gain face by having me concede that democracy gets things wrong also, then fine.

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  • 81. At 3:45pm on 14 Nov 2008, Xlbfan wrote:

    Senlin/ Zhuxuejia,

    I've experienced the staring, pointing, shouts of hello, whistling and laughter. Putting myself in the other person's shoes, it is genuine curiosity on the part of some people who are less "worldly". It's genuine ignorance, and I never took it to mean anything that was unfair or prejudiced. The nature of patriotism and nationlism in China would be a long book indeed.

    I used to get quized by people on trains with things like "what time does your flag get raised in the morning" and "how many times a week do you go to church". There's no subplot or angle that you'd get from talking to a stranger in the west, just honest questions from people wanting information.

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  • 82. At 9:38pm on 14 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    To #52 Midnight Junkie,

    Well I saw many videos showing American boarder-officers shooting at crossing Mexicans. Why are these not reported in the West?

    To #53 mikelia,

    A sweater made in China was sold to an US store at $5. The Chinese side makes less than $1. The US store sold it at $100. Now think where the $95 did go?

    Boycott whatever you want. Do we Chinese care?!?!

    BTW, who and what is “the World”? Do you ever really think about it?

    To #55 Senlin,

    You REALLY, I mean REALLY, should go to China daily and experience our superior Speech Freedom. Your imagination of a Chinese websites is not true.

    I have POSTED on Chinese sites. The Chinese sites are MUCH MORE tolerant on different views than this site.

    The conclusion is: China has superior freedom!

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  • 83. At 9:44pm on 14 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    To #75 Senlin,

    Why is curiosity interpreted as *racism*!?!?

    If you think charging different rates in China is *racism* ... ... how about the US immigration policy –

    where the Irish is given the same quota as Chinese!?

    Think about the populations of the two nations.

    Your false perception, however strong, is still wrong.

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  • 84. At 5:09pm on 17 Nov 2008, sinodeplant wrote:

    NO, YOU CAN NOT BECOME PRESIDENT IN AMERCA.

    SO, STOP THINKING ABOUT IT.

    This is a one time mistake and it won't happen again.

    And NO, you can not be a CEO with your PHD, because they don't like your kind.

    There is NO racism here, just a dislike for Chinese.

    Dream on.

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  • 85. At 5:19pm on 17 Nov 2008, sinodeplant wrote:

    You will never be smart enough or be educated enough for American acceptence.

    Can you talk your way into the corporate world without experience like other minorities can in the US? NO.

    You can not talk and BS your way to the top like some can in the US.

    So you will always be a worker in the US, go home, make money and become something back in China.

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  • 86. At 5:25pm on 17 Nov 2008, sinodeplant wrote:

    BHO did it as a joke and now the joke is on the Americans.

    Betcha NO Chinese person likes to be a joke.

    And for you Chinese people here who thinks racism is not alive and well.

    Come to where I am and it will blow your mind how the racists here will welcome you.

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  • 87. At 9:31pm on 17 Nov 2008, MidnightJunkie wrote:

    timbatu,

    By the way, before you go spout your opinion on other issues, I still haven't read your answer to my post in #57. Will you answer my question there?

    I'm seriously hoping I get a sensible reply from you.

    Complain about this comment

  • 88. At 7:10pm on 18 Nov 2008, heyone wrote:

    #83 timbatu

    It's funny how you managed to relate immigration policy with racism.

    Just a month ago I read a news story about this Chinese official who overstayed in France.

    When people from a particular country have the tendency of overstaying in other countries e.g. US, UK, France etc. etc., I guess it's fair enough to impose tighter visa policies on nationals from this particular country ? ?

    I haven't heard of any Irish official trying to overstay in France or the US or anywhere else, perhaps I've been brainwashed again. Inform me ?

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  • 89. At 8:28pm on 18 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    From James and other news reporters, I sense a powerful sentiment of disrespect against China. For the example of White Horse village, the female reporter repeatedly pretends to speak local language. It CANNOT be true! Because I speak Chinese as my first language, I CANNOT understand their dialect. Her observations are filled with imagination revealing her hatred against the perceived Chinese communistic government. The villages say a few negative things; these are immediately mis-interpreted as “TRUTH” to back up her imagination. The most obvious case is that the villages are negotiating with the party chief. She says they are desperately venting their anger at the party chief. It simply is NOT. She also claims the thousands of student at a local school are from "Local elites". Do you have any evidence for such a rude conclusion!? Do you know how the Chinese school system work? Learn to listen and respect first, because you can start understanding China.

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  • 90. At 8:32pm on 18 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    Xlbfan,

    Learn to listen. You are told you have choice A or B. But you are lied to. You have no power, no choice. You have nothing.

    Both A and B are the same persons, they are in control. You are not.

    Compared to the suffering of the third world democracies, from African wars to India and Central America, I say China’s system is the lesser evil.

    Democracy is the worst of the worst. A lying system promoting corruption and fights.

    I don’t know what you are talking about with regard about “face”. If you are trying to save “face” by insisting democracy is good, that is fine.

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  • 91. At 10:23pm on 18 Nov 2008, gadflying wrote:

    to #75 cenlin,

    Hi, friend,

    I read the debate between you and zhexuejia,.

    I think there are maybe some misunderstandings about recism,
    "Racism, by its simplest definition, is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race".

    Actually this kind of idea never exit in the mainstream of chinese culture. Certainly, in the hisory, Chinese people always too proud of their culture, and thought they have most developed civilization in the world. But Chinese never thought that their race is superior than others. Remember in Han period, the captured Hun's prince JinMidi became the Han's premier just because he was well-educated in Han's culture system.

    The conflict between different races can not be simply seen as racism. The ethnic conflict exist in the whole world, and people used to use some dirty words on other race. But this is not racism, they conflicted, but they may didn't think that others are inferiority.

    Sorry for my poor english. :)

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  • 92. At 5:15pm on 19 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    To #87 Mignight Junkie,

    I have a lengthy and thorough response to #57. Unfortunately, is has been banned.

    Complain about this comment

  • 93. At 5:20pm on 19 Nov 2008, timbatu wrote:

    Heyone says: it is funny how you relate immigration policy with racism.

    To heyone,

    Yes, let me educate you. Data shows that the Irish are more likely to overstay their visas than the Chinese in the US. They are also more likely to get away by marriages.

    But the US media never report so. The prejudice is that only non-whites and East Europeans are illegal immigrants!

    Is it not self-evident that more Europeans have migrated to the US? All Asians together are 5% of US population. The Irish population is close to 70%.

    Now what you say!

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  • 94. At 04:52am on 22 Nov 2008, chemhehe wrote:

    I do not think Obama will promote/change US obviously, because he is in the SYSTEM.
    I do not think Obama will change US-China relationship greatly.
    Just let the history tell the result.

    Complain about this comment

  • 95. At 07:25am on 25 Nov 2008, MidnightJunkie wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

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