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Europe and immigration

Gavin Hewitt | 08:49 UK time, Tuesday, 26 April 2011

When the French and Italian leaders meet today their conversation will be dominated by the subject of immigration. The arrival of 26,000 Tunisian migrants on the tiny Italian island of Lampedusa has strained relations between the two countries. For most of the young men want to move to France, where they have contacts and relatives.

On one level this can be seen as a practical question over how to handle what are principally economic migrants. But on another level this crisis goes to the core of what the EU is about and whether some of its fundamental principles are in touch with the mood of the people.

The migrants from Tunisia have arrived in Europe at a time of economic insecurity. In Italy youth unemployment is running at 25%. Across the EU, 24 million are without work and so far, with the exception of a few countries like Germany, it has proved a jobless recovery.

From the start the Italian government set out to make this a European problem. One of the parties in the governing coalition, the Northern League, is fiercely anti-immigration. So the Italian government issued the migrants with temporary visas, knowing only too well that with no border checks a majority of them would head to France. The Schengen agreement, signed in 1985, created open borders among 25 countries. The UK and Republic of Ireland did not sign.


Tunisian migrants boarding Italian train bound for Ventimiglia near French border, 21 Apr 11

The French saw the Italian move as cynical. They responded by stepping up border patrols and briefly stopped trains running between the two countries. The Italians were outraged. They accused France of violating one of the basic EU agreements. Then on 22 April the Elysee Palace hinted at a "suspension" of the Schengen agreement. Later that was qualified to mean reviewing some of the exemption clauses. The French say Europe is not about the free movement of illegal migrants.

All of this has led to fierce arguments. In France, Harlem Desir of the Socialist Party said "Sarkozy and Berlusconi make Europe ashamed. They are behaving in an absolutely unworthy fashion. France should, on the contrary, be at the forefront of a co-ordinated European response. It would be a fatal error to abandon the common Schengen policy."

The mere hint that the Schengen agreement might be suspended sent shockwaves through the European establishment. For it was not just France that did not want to take the migrants. Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands were all complaining about the Italian action.

In Brussels the Schengen agreement is regarded as one of the cornerstones of the European project. The euro is the other. All of this touches a raw nerve. The EU Commission hurriedly said that Schengen can't be suspended "temporarily" although it did give some support to the French action. With the euro crisis far from settled and with bail-outs increasingly unpopular it has led some like Markus Ferber, an MEP for the conservative German CSU, to say that solidarity among European countries is waning.

The Italian tactic has been to make this an EU crisis. The Italian Foreign Minister, Franco Frattini, said that Schengen "which is one of the two pillars of Europe along with the euro" cannot be questioned. The Italian strategy is to present this as a challenge to EU basic principles and, like with the euro, to force countries to construct a European solution.

Italian and French security officials have met in Milan. They agreed on joint sea and air patrols in the Mediterranean - but that is the easy part. The real question is what to do with the migrants. In the long term Europe may be able to use financial incentives to get the Tunisians to patrol their borders. But that is down the road.

Already about 400 of the migrants have reached Paris and reports suggest that dozens are arriving each day in the suburb of Seine-Saint-Denis.

The French and Italian leaders are each under pressure. They may agree on a joint appeal to review Schengen, to clarify how the agreement applies to the movement of significant numbers of people. But their interests differ. The Italians want the review to get others to "burden-share" ; the French want to keep the migrants out.

The real tension here is that EU principles are increasingly seen as at odds with economic reality and the wishes of a majority of the people. Appeals to solidarity do not sit well with the voters. The dilemma is similar to that of the bail-outs. In order to keep the euro together Brussels is supporting policies that alienate many voters.

Comments

Page 1 of 2

  • Comment number 1.

    The time has come, for the majority of EU members, to confront the consequencies of colonial and postcolonial policies. The solution of the problem should have been placed in Africa, not in Italy or France.

  • Comment number 2.

    The current situation, with boatloads of people arriving almost daily on Lampadusa, cannot continue. The majority of arrivals are without doubt economic migrants, most of whom are young men. Youth unemployment in most EU countries is already unacceptably high. It would help if the EU's so-called leaders engaged with the authorities in the Magreb countries to thrash out some kind of agreement. If nothing is done, the only realistic outcome will be more arrivals, followed by social unrest. Disillusioned migrants and resentful locals do not make good bedfellows. It is time for the generously-paid politicians to step up and show both leadership and decisiveness for a change.

  • Comment number 3.

    The French government should impose whatever restrictions they consider are in their interest and have the resolution to face down their critics.

    No doubt these "migrants" will resist any attempts to repatriate them as "unsafe" or "breaching their right to a family life".

    The fact that the migrants found no other country as attractive a proposition as entry to the EU speaks volumes about the entire Middle East.

  • Comment number 4.

    American politicians have a phrase about ‘kicking the can down the road’. The tendency of the EU political class to seek EU solutions to all problems, even those created by excessive EU integration (like increased economic volatility in the eurozone periphery, or free movement for illegal immigrants) is akin to ‘kicking the can up the hill’; it just rolls back to their feet. Better to solve the problems at root by restoring powers to nation-states.

    The UK is freer without Schengen (which would oblige UK citizens to carry ID cards 24x7) and richer without the euro that would have bankrupted the country. All other EU member-states should enjoy these benefits.

  • Comment number 5.

    " In order to keep the euro together Brussels is supporting policies that alienate many voters "!!!
    The Schengen treaty should not apply to illegal immigrants , even if they have temporary residence permits .
    The EU has got itself in a right mess over immigration .

  • Comment number 6.

    'The French say Europe is not about the free movement of illegal migrants.'

    They are right...it is about free movement of labour.

    More people = more competition for limited resources = lower wages = greater profit for the global capitalist rich.

    The only downside is breakdown of society...but who cares if you live in Switzerland or have enough cash to actualy afford to live everywhere? You can always get the local police to protect your property and if the state cannot aford to pay them then private security firms are an attractive option... they will have a nice deep pool of motivated labour to recruit from.


  • Comment number 7.

    Hi All

    Is it better for a Tunisian economic immigrant to be part of a 25% youth unemployment problem in Tunisia or a 25% youth unemployment problem in France/Italy? Where are the prospects better?

    It was always obvious that Tunisian migrants were going to try and head for France. Their good French language skills make France the obvious destination. The UK is probably their second choice, English being the worldwide lingua franca they can head to the UK and if things don't work out then at least they have had time to develop some English skills which will probably serve them well at their next stop.

    If you want to stop the refugees coming then you must be willing to offer aid to Tunisia to stop the problem at its source. If the refugees come then the best place for them is France. There is no reason why the EU should not help Italy transport these people and then help France assist these new migrants. What should not be forgotten though is that help should also be available to the local population whose living and working conditions may suffer due to this migration.

  • Comment number 8.

    #2 "It would help if the EU's so-called leaders engaged with the authorities in the Magreb countries to thrash out some kind of agreement."

    as the one Italy had with col. Gaddafi?



  • Comment number 9.

    I think what Italy did is just promoting more illegal migrants to Europe.

  • Comment number 10.

    #9

    better start shooting them, isn't it? or would you prefer air strike?

  • Comment number 11.

    I think it is time for the EU to realise that the project is dying.....and I think the UK should leave the EU. I'd rather sink on our own than sink with all EU States and keep bailing out the doomed Euro. Why can't the UK have the same status as Norway, Switzerland and Iceland?! Don't tell me that we rely on the EU's money and EU's trade. Rubbish! We put more in than we get out and wouldn't lose any trade! France is right to question Schengen and Italy's pulled a nasty trick! We should deal with our own affairs and this country would be better for it! Come on Cameron! Let's have a referendum please!

  • Comment number 12.

    10. At 12:10pm 26th Apr 2011, Alessandro_Manzotti wrote:
    #9
    better start shooting them, isn't it? or would you prefer air strike?'

    Let's ask the Tunisian government what they want to do when things have become more stable in Tunisia. I'm sure they will welcome back all 26,000 with open arms. In the meantime, just hope it is not you that has their life impacted on in a negative way

  • Comment number 13.

    7. At 11:53am 26th Apr 2011, Ulkomaalainen wrote:
    'What should not be forgotten though is that help should also be available to the local population whose living and working conditions may suffer due to this migration. '

    That is the first thing that will be forgotten.....



  • Comment number 14.

    How dare they!
    Did neither France nor Italy have the foresight to know that Immigrants would flee out of Tunisia, Libya, Egypt...Was the hope that they would drown at sea?
    France temporarily blocked trains; Italy headed to French coastal destinations to spit & spat.
    Who made the unrest in North Africa? How dare the EU members who embraced North African rebellion close their doors to the consequences! As if this is not enough, they also begin developing deep and hardening anti-immigration sentiment.
    So, Italy and France play ping-pong with human lives. Italy argues; France argues...Who gave these Immigrants the chance to argue?
    Instead, Paris argues that the holders of Italian temporary documents — issued after the Tunisians illegally entered Italy to flee turmoil at home — must also carry passports and PROOF OF FINANCIAL SUPPORT to qualify for unrestricted travel under terms of the Schengen treaty.
    Can you not see how unjust, how childish, how non-visonary North African decisions have been?
    The French accuse the Italians; the Italians accuse the French. For the love of humanity, I feel like bashing Italian/French minds together and trying to accomplish some sort of mind-melt. Obviously Italy needs help. Geographically it is best suited as North African first refuge point, but the problem belongs to the EU.
    If I were one of these Immigrants I'm not sure that escaping from whence I came would be improved by French residence where President Nicolas Sarkozy and his government have been accused of stigmatizing minorities - Muslims and foreigners as part of an anti-immigration strategy to head off the surging far-right National Front Party.
    It's not fair to create conditions for emigration and then criticise the immigrants. The EU should show a little maturity - divvy up the load without dividing families and all EU members should take their fair share.
    (In actual fact it was the American QE2 + commodity speculation that drove prices so high these Immigrants were out of work and starving in their country of origin; therefore, perhaps the EU should charge the United States, and/or ship the Immigrants across the ocean where they truly belong. You know - give me your tired and your poor, your huddled masses earning to be free...)

  • Comment number 15.

    Heaven forbid that France should get a taste of the kind of immigration pressure that's been going on for a decade over here. Perhaps Sarkosy would get more support if he hadn't been moving immigrants to "camps" just set up for the purpose of smuggling people across the Channel to the UK. Of course this problem wouldn't arise if Tunisia's second language was English rather than French.

  • Comment number 16.

    #12 "I'm sure they will welcome back all 26,000 with open arms."

    Tunisian government will "welcome back" the money they will gain in Europe (maybe).

  • Comment number 17.

    #10 Alessandro_Manzotti
    " better start shooting them, isn't it? or would you prefer air strike? "

    I agree .

    These illegal immigrants should be shipped back to where they came from no questions asked .
    The Italian and French navies should be patrolling international waters off the north african coast , to prevent further arrivals .

    #14 Bluesberry

    Are we politically correct ?

  • Comment number 18.

    #11 Dazzini

    Quite right !

  • Comment number 19.

    at #12

    "I'm sure they will welcome back all 26,000 with open arms."

    Doubtful. Tunesia's problem of 26000 disgruntled, unemployed, youth has now become Europe's problem.

  • Comment number 20.

    Countries need bailing out? Well that's OK, we can simply tear up Lisbon. Immigration not flavour of the month? OK, let's rewrite Schengen. These goalposts are moving around at such an alarming rate that they are dangerously close to overtaking the buck - you know the one, the buck that does not stop anywhere because it going too fast.

    Surely it must by now have dawned on somebody that the current European leadership has got it so badly wrong that they need to go back to the drawing board. Schengen is about the freedom of movement of people who are here lawfully and mobility of labour of those entitled by virtue of citizenship to work here. It was never about allowing anyone who happens to fetch up in the EU illegally to go wherever they like. The bottom line is that Schengen is doomed unless and until the members with land borders to non-Schengen countries or vulnerable coastlines start policing their external borders properly.

    For once, I have great sympathy with the French. Why the hell should they have to carry the burden of a load of illegals who should never have come into the EU in the first place? Maybe the logistics of policing coast lines are costly. Maybe those countries who are most vulnerable need financial or logistical help but the external borders must be secured it this is ever going to work properly.

  • Comment number 21.

    "The real tension here is that EU principles are increasingly seen as at odds with economic reality and the wishes of a majority of the people."

    Yet another contribution by Mr. Hewitt to be added to the BBC blog dustbin.

    There are at least 600,000 displaced people in the Libyan area and Mr. Hewitt places the refugee problem as one worth the collapse of the EU.

    His utter failure to appreciate that BRITAIN is the one that is proud to shout to the WORLD of its Libyan involvement ---- he blames the EU (and in NO WAY BRITAIN) for the storm in a teacup which he uses as pro-British anti-EU Nationalism.

    Mr. Hewitt ---- the 28,000 (BBC)--- only want to get a good place to see YOUR royal marriage ---- and you are holding it against them ????


  • Comment number 22.

    #20 "but the external borders must be secured it this is ever going to work properly."

    We can secure border against an enemy army but we have no defenses against illegal immigration.

    There isn't a democracy (a western one) that would open fire on unarmed civilians and a vessel always have to render assistance to shipwrecked.

    The solution will be creating jobs in their countries but the funniest thing is that we are not able to do so in OUR countries!

    #14
    Food prices in Northern Africa are growing due to the fact that a large and increasing portion of production of Ethiopia and Sudan are gulf countries property (which means that products are not sold on the rule of market) while, at the same time, overproduction in EU is fined or destroyed!

  • Comment number 23.

    #20 Threnodio

    "--but the external borders must be secured it this is ever going to work properly."

    ---Fortress Europe ---- or Fortress Britain ?

    --- neither sounds attractive.

    --- ´Fortress Europe´ has been used by Britain before to describe Europe.

  • Comment number 24.

    21 & 23 - quietoaktree:

    Utterly pathetic. A very casual glance at my posts over the years will confirm that I am very much opposed to the 'fortress Britain' idea. I have frequently said that I am bewildered and saddened by the unwillingness of the UK to participate in the Schengen process.

    However, the EU is not a free for all zone. The EU nations are entitled not to build a fortress wall but certainly to know who is coming and going and why. It is not simply a matter of preventing non-Europeans from taking European jobs. Theoretically, employment laws should do that. There are security issues as well. If you think we are not entitled to try protect ourselves against repeats of the Madrid or London bombings, then you really do have a problem.

  • Comment number 25.

    Schengen should apply only to passport or id card holder of the state which belong to the scheme this must be clear to all.
    The time as came to stop all in legal economic migration to the EU and only genuine political asylum should be admit to all the EU.
    The consul of Europe or the EU parliament should make clear to any state which invade a sovereign country is responsible for all the emigrant from the name country this will achieve two point one any emigrant arriving in any state can be transfer to the name country at their cost, two they my think twice to invade a sovereign country.
    John

  • Comment number 26.

    #23

    quietoaktree;

    "--- ´Fortress Europe´ has been used by Britain before to describe Europe."

    I bet Festung Europa never had an immigrant problem.

  • Comment number 27.

    The time has long past for Britain to get out of this rotten organization with it's stupid directives and idiotic policies like Schengen which seems to be intended to facilitate the movement of illegal immigrants ,people traffickers and assorted criminals from the world's cesspits. It seems that most of this movement is towards Britain which is perceived as a soft touch, and where the more obscure tenets of the European Human (criminal) rights act are trotted out to benefit the offender rather than the law abiding citizen. Certainly there is nothing now in membership of the EU which is of any great value to Britain, and indeed could not be done without, and in fact withdrawing from membership would most probably be advantageous rather than a disadvantage. We do not need Europe, we never have and being tied to this abominable organization has been at the expense of the British taxpayer.

  • Comment number 28.

    7. At 11:53am 26th apr. 2011, Ulkomaalainen wrote:
    Is it better for a Tunisian economic immigrant to be part of a 25% youth unemployment problem in Tunisia or a 25% youth unemployment problem in France/Italy? Where are the prospects better?
    ------
    That's easy, its better there where you get welfare.

    In this matter also, easy to see who's side the undemocratic EU is on. Hint: not on the side of the peoples.

    And in other news, Greece's deficit has gone UP rather than down. All because the undemocratic EU and the loathsome IMF impose austerity and refuse to contemplate that which should already have been done over a year ago: a default.

    Do not believe the scaremongering of economic collapse if a country defaults. Its corporate/banker propaganda. All you have to do is default and balance budget, then you never have to borrow again. But the silly idea of bonuses and bailouts for some, austerity for everyone else is not good.

    But the real reason of course is that the 'colleagues' just will not contemplate a default, because their hated Euro project would die, and with it their dream of elitist rule through the means of undemocratic EU. They shudder to think that they might have to pass all laws through a national parliament again instead of being able to go 'through Brussels' so they can sideline those parliaments.

    And does anyone really doubt that they are willing to destroy a significant portion of our wealth in order to prop up the failed Euro at any price? "Euro über alles" it would seem to me. The myth that we'd be worse off without the Euro needs to be killed quickly, all we need in Europe is economic cooperation, we the peoples never asked for nor were ever asked if we wanted political integration.

  • Comment number 29.

    #24 Threnodio

    My #23 (as #21) are attempts to put this affair into perspective --considering the tragedy of 600,000 refugees --- and if the Middle East turmoil continues there will be many, 100´s of thousands more.

    With such masses on the move -- do you really believe it is possible to ´find a possible terrorist needle in a haystack´ --- when (say) a 100,000 are banging on the door and slipping through every nook and cranny into Europe ?

    Britain is an active part in the ´Libyan refugee problem´and I do not see it as being ´pathetic´ when Mr. Hewitt is reminded of the fact.

  • Comment number 30.

    #29 - quietoaktree

    "My #23 (as #21) are attempts to put this affair into perspective . . "

    Then simply look at the numbers. Of the 600,000 refugees, how many went to Tunisia? Why would a mere 24,000 chose to make the journey to Europe? Not for the first time, you are confusing two issues. Of course we should be concerned about the plight of 600,000 refugees. That does not mean we should accommodate the requirement of 24000 economic migrants.

    There is a difference.

  • Comment number 31.

    11 Dazzini writes:
    "........ and keep bailing out the doomed Euro."
    ----------------------------
    I suggest you google the rise of the Euro against both the dollar and pound in the last decade before you make such a laughable comment.

  • Comment number 32.

    Hi mvr_512 #28

    "That's easy, its better there where you get welfare."

    And best of all where your employment prospects are good.

    The Tunisian immigrants best chances of getting off welfare and becoming net contributors to their host society lie in France. The best place in the EU for the immigrants in question is France. Sadly it seems that France really doesn't want them..... which like it or not is their decision to make, and one that other nations should respect.

    I just hope that some other nations are a little more pragmatic and considerate of the plight of the Tunisians and Italians. A union implies some sort of mutual support and it really does look like the immigrant problem is just being left to Italy.

  • Comment number 33.

    27 kaebraes writes:
    "The time has long past for Britain to get out of this rotten organization with it's stupid directives and idiotic policies like Schengen...."
    ------------------------------------
    Please kaebraes, could you in future just write England and not Britain as we Scots are quite happy to remain in your so-called 'rotten organi(s)zation'! And shouldn't you have written "The time has long passed...."?

  • Comment number 34.

    kaybraes #27

    You are right,Britain should have got out of the EU a very long time ago and we would be a better country for it.If Cameron had fought the last GE on the promise
    that there would be a refendum on EU membership he would have won outright with
    a healthy majority.No need then for a coalition with the EU worshipping Lib Dems.
    Successive governments have let us down appallingly as they have kowtowed to the
    undemocratic and corrupt EU,costing us more and more financially.The biggest price
    we pay though is loss of sovereignty with faceless bureaucrats conjuring up ever
    more stupid rules and regulations.

    Britain needs to get out of the clutches of this appalling organisation and if we did I
    believe others would follow,the euro needs to be scrapped,each country should once
    again use its own currency,and as mvr_512 says defaults should happen.Lets get it
    done once and for all and in time we shall all be happier.

  • Comment number 35.

    #31 - margaret howard

    ". . . such a laughable comment"

    For once, I am not going to argue with you. Please quote the economic theorists who seriously believe that a strong currency relative to others is good for that economy? Serious question - chapter and verse please.

  • Comment number 36.

    Hi margarethoward#31

    Why not check all the currencies that you mention against gold or the Swiss Franc?

  • Comment number 37.

    #30 Threnodio

    "Then simply look at the numbers. Of the 600,000 refugees, how many went to Tunisia? Why would a mere 24,000 chose to make the journey to Europe?

    You lost me with that comment --please explain !

    "Not for the first time, you are confusing two issues. Of course we should be concerned about the plight of 600,000 refugees. That does not mean we should accommodate the requirement of 24000 economic migrants."---- ?

    Those Libyans that went to Tunisia, Egypt and Chad are genuine refugees --- those heading for Europe are ´economic migrants´?

    --- so genuine refugees were previously employed in the country they left --- and should not wish to work in the country they escape to --- they should remain unwilling ´parasites´?

    ---- I thought that in itself was causing an increase in far right European tendencies ??



  • Comment number 38.

    @ #29

    Missing the point. The issue is not the migrants themselves but the rifts between the interests of individual nations and the EU mandates and how they are growing in intensity and frequency. If 26,000 causes governments to re-assess the border treaty. Then what happens to intra-governmental system that enables illegal migration when the invading population reaches that 100,000 or 600,000

    Linking Britian to this makes no sense as Libyans would have been displaced regardless of UN involvement because they are in the midst of a civil war. Besides, this article is about illegal migrants from Tunesia. The only perspective you are showing is of Anti-English sentiment.

  • Comment number 39.

    #26 Champagne Charlie

    ---now don´t tell me that YOU are against 24,000 ´economic migrants´ coming to Britain ?????

  • Comment number 40.

    201. At 23:49pm 21st Apr 2011, margaret howard wrote on the other thread,
    194 Ellinas
    I have a book on local customs at the beginning of the last century, when it was common for young boys to blow up frogs with straws,
    ---------------------
    Was this an early prototype of IED used against the French Cafe Society ??.
    I am impressed, as a lad I got up to all the mischief under the sun & then some.
    Even blew the lock off the coal shed door using 10 threepenny cannon bangers.
    But blowing up frogs,of all species, by what ever means ,totally escaped me.

  • Comment number 41.

    #38

    Tunisia ???

    "The real tension here is that EU principles are increasingly seen as at odds with economic reality and the wishes of a majority of the people. Appeals to solidarity do not sit well with the voters. The dilemma is similar to that of the bail-outs. In order to keep the euro together Brussels is supporting policies that alienate many voters."

    ----you mean anti-British sentiment and not anti-English sentiment ?







  • Comment number 42.

    Remember---in defense of QOT,

    I'm half German, what exactly does that mean? Nothing

    --oh yeah forgot here QOT

    --also, thanks for the EU problems

    --takes my mind off the American problems

    --also, yes the strong EURO does look good, Margaret...and makes a harbor?

    --perhaps, but with the strong EURO, and Americans trying to force their dollar lower

    --against the Yuan, your argument goes up in smoke--the one about the strong EURO being a Good Thing

    --don't listen to Martha Stewart, being a "good thing" doesn't mean much (I actually admire Martha Stewart, being a female icon and a Liberal who like Bill Clinton

    --I often think her imprisonment was due to being a Democrat, not a criminal

    Remember ol Bush, the younger--

    --that is it for your tribute, QuietOakTree.

    :) only so much genius per person ...least after my stroke 20 yrs ago...

    :)

  • Comment number 43.

    36. At 20:52pm 26th Apr 2011, Ulkomaalainen wrote:
    Hi margarethoward#31

    "Why not check all the currencies that you mention against gold or the Swiss Franc?"

    The problems of the dollar are mainly responsible for the increase in gold, Swiss Franc and commodities.


  • Comment number 44.

    #39

    quietoaktree;

    "---now don´t tell me that YOU are against 24,000 ´economic migrants´ coming to Britain ?????"

    Never said I was. What is 24,000 on top of the FIVE MILLION immigrants to the UK in the past decade?

  • Comment number 45.

    #31 margaret howard....

    Let's face it. Without Germany the Euro would be weak! How many in Germany are getting cheesed off with bailing out the poorer EU nations?! Then you've got the Eastern European countries wanting to join whch will mean in the future more bailouts! Germany and France won't keep on doing it and will ask the PIGS to leave the Eurozone (not a bad thibg actually!). Your precious Euro will be up in smoke! Poorer countries can't sustain the Euro's interest rates which means they will borrow more then be bailed out more! Why on earth should Britain keeping putting money in when we are not even a Eurozone member! Stupid! Leave the EU NOW!!!

  • Comment number 46.

    #42 Stevenson

    ---I appreciate the tribute.

    ---while waiting for Charlie´s rebute (al)

  • Comment number 47.

    #42 Stevenson

    --- the Martha Mitchell episode was much worse --may she rest in peace !

  • Comment number 48.

    #44 Champagne Charlie

    Grrrrrr !

    ---Charlie agreed with me --- I´m a total failure today !

  • Comment number 49.

    40 ukwales writes:
    "But blowing up frogs,of all species, by what ever means ,totally escaped me."
    ---------------------------------
    I had never heard of it before either. However, today by total coincidence I read a report by the RSPCA that prosecutions for animal cruelty had increased by 9% last year and this coincided with a study by Manchester Metropolitan University that cruelty to animals was still deep-rooted in society and formed in youth. Part of the report reads:

    "More than half of the young people surveyed had first-hand knowledge of harming animals. Incidents included shooting cats, strangling ducks, dropping a concrete slab on a cats head, juggling mice, tying fireworks to cats tails and blowing up frogs and toads with straws.
    Some of the 1,000 children and 100 adults interviewed suggested that cruelty to animals was a normal stage in growing up."


  • Comment number 50.

    42 Stevenson writes:
    "...but with the strong EURO, and Americans trying to force their dollar lower
    --against the Yuan, your argument goes up in smoke--the one about the strong EURO being a Good Thing..."
    ------------------------------
    Surely the reason you are trying to force the dollar down against the yuan is that the Chinese have bought up billions of dollars of your debt so it would make sense to try and lower it. I can't see how that should effect the standing of the euro. Whether a strong euro is good for trade or not, it surely proves that the markets trust it as a world currency at a time when the dollar looks shaky and the pound no better. And as some other contributers here have pointed out, that is why gold has increased in value so dramatically as well.
    (Hope you are making a good recovery!)

  • Comment number 51.

    #45 Dazzini

    "Why on earth should Britain keeping putting money in when we are not even a Eurozone member! Stupid! Leave the EU NOW!!!"

    It is a way for the British hereditary land owners to collect money from the CAP !

    --Her Majesty and Feudal others would not be amused by your suggestion !

  • Comment number 52.

    Basically the overwhelming majority of Europeans do not want African and Muslim immigrants. They are also extremely angry that unknown or discarded civil servants and politicians doing things which are against the people's interests.

    In this case there shouldn't be any sharing of the "immigrant" burden. these people are unneeded and unwanted and illegal and should be sent back, whether they tear their passports or not. And if "human rights"legislation is stopping European governments from sending them back or enabling gutless politicians in Spain, Itlay, France, Malta, Greece etc to hide behind EU rules, then they should be repealeds fortwith.

  • Comment number 53.

    I was never ever cruel to animals....it makes my heart bleed...and I turned out to be a non-criminal...I do think cruelty to animals makes/leads to later crime by that cruel person.

    Ain't it cruel? No offense to animal haters but it is a badddd sign that they have no feelings for the animals...it signals a kind of sociopathic future for the animal abuser??

    Pretty sure it does predict future creepy behaviors...computer animals or computer hmans (virtual in games) do not have feelings tho

    I do get turned off by the genocidal nature of killing anything that moves in some games.

  • Comment number 54.

    I can see WHY People do become vegans.

  • Comment number 55.

    Since Italy and France are states which are exposed to a level of illegal immigration beyond those of northern nations, it is only natural that they should have special rights in the Schengen agreement. This goes for Greece and Spain, as well.

  • Comment number 56.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 57.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 58.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 59.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 60.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 61.

    Coward ?

  • Comment number 62.

    Mods --then publish the others !

    --to show you are not !

  • Comment number 63.

    come on, look at the great input that immigration has given us: inner cities like Brixton, Bradford, Toxteth. Without Toxteth there would be no UB40, nor Sir Coxone sound system from Brixton, or that great british dish Curry from Bradford. Each of these great cities have contributed in bringing about social reform in current policing tactics. What we need are more migrants from around the World; we will become a be a better people for it. For all you Migraphobes, Embrace your fellow human beings; give them a hug.

  • Comment number 64.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 65.

    #27 Kaybraes

    Excellent post , I completely agree !!!

  • Comment number 66.

    #28 mvr_512

    Well said !!!

  • Comment number 67.

    The large number of illegal northafrican immigrants , serve as another thorn in the flesh of the EU ; creating disunity between France and Italy and other member states . Even if governments try to make the appropriate humanitarian statements , the people , especially indigenous unemployed will not be happy about this huge influx of illegal immigrants will make it more difficult to find jobs .
    This huge influx serves as another weapon to help break up the EU , along with the failing Euro and the bailouts .

    David Cameron has been an utter wet blanket as leader of the Conservative party .
    I could have said that differently , but the moderators might not have liked it .

    #34 Sevenstargreen

    ".If Cameron had fought the last GE on the promise that there would be a referendum on EU membership he would have won outright ."

    He knows the people would vote against staying in the EU ; knows it would probably mean Britain leaving the EU ; was afraid of the consequences , that could very likely cause the EU to break up . The British prime Minister should have a duty to represent the British people before considering the EU . A break up of the EU is probably the best thing that could happen in Europe now .

  • Comment number 68.

    #52 Guiltedged

    Completely agree !!!

    These illegal immigrants should be shipped back to northafrica and dumped , whether Tunisia or Libya like it or not . Human rights is completely out of hand and should be abandoned in situations like this , otherwise we might go to war with their countries . The existence of the EU itself , is as much a cause of the immigration and the economic problems that are being suffered in Europe today .

  • Comment number 69.

    68. At 07:00am 27th Apr 2011, Huaimek,

    That is a very good point, without the EU overall control it would be down to the individual countries to agree or disagree to immigration, also without the European convention on Human Rights and the EU's implementation of it, this piece of obtrusive legislation would not be being used as a reason to allow unrestricted immigration. Communists and Socialists fight for the ownership of all land by the 'people' (meaning their party) but thankfully we in Europe are not Socialist (with a capital S) and believe that our territory is owned by us and our nation. Therefore no one has a right to intrude on our territory without express permission, unfortunately there are too many socialists (with a small s) who bleat on about human rights, disadvantaged, refugee status etc and for a number of illogical reasons continue to allow immigration with few restrictions.

  • Comment number 70.

    In the last 5 years the incidence of 'cheap' imported foreign Labour Force (from 'EAST' members & external Migration) taking the Employment of indigenous populations across much of the EU 'WEST' has grown alarmingly. One consequence has been a remarkable Citizen Voter swing toward supporting Political Parties with more 'Nationalist' policies. That trend reaches from the UK to Netherlands, France etc. and most recently to formerly ardent EUrophile Finland.
    It would seem the EU-Brussels declaration of reducing cross-border anxst is at best a very damp squib and at worst an actual conduit for increasing antipathy between peoples!

    For many months the EUro-zone Currency crisis has rumbled on at high & low speed, however 2 things are clear: 1) At least 3 EUro-zone members' Economies collapsed and needed a Bail-out or the zone would also collapse, and (2) the EUro-zone & other EU27 colluded to breech the Terms & Conditions of the Lisbon Treaty (Ratified only January 2010) and misappropriate Billions of EU Citizen Tax-payers monies to accomplish the 'Bail-out'. EU & Governments openly talk of having to 'amend' Lisbon & intoroduce 'new' treaties to "catch-up" wioth the nevw developments, i.e. to REWRITE the Rule Book to fix the misconduct by RETROACTIVE legislation!

    Last few weeks it was the EU-Brussels announcement demanding 6.9% Budget Increase for the next 2 years and then a 4.9% Budget Increase for 2 after that. MEPs & EU apparatchiks seriously argued for an 'increase' in their secret Expenses & Allowances Claims plus huge amounts for the EU-Brussels' projects. This at a time of incredible hardship for so many EU Citizens & with Governments enforcing widespread cuts in Public Services/Benefits! The 'pro-EU' were conspicuous by their absence from the fray to explain/justify/apologise for this gross affront to the Citizens of 27 EU Nations facing Increasing Economic hardship.

    This week, the beloved pan-EUropean project of every 'pro-EU' in past years trumpeted as the apotheosis of EU-Brussels grand design - - SCHENGEN - - gets shafted by a France that doesn't want to play-by-the-rules anymore and exposed as pure theatrical illusion by Italy that brazenly without disguise attempts to pass on its new 'immigrant' invasion to the rest of EUrope (arguing that that is what it has always done only not so publicly)!


    One hesitates to scorn the self-afflicted however please could the 'pro-EU' do 10 0f 2 things on this blog:

    1) either explain these series of debacles without resorting to the usual deceits of "..actually the Treaty/Competences/Directives... do allow for exceptional....",

    or,

    2) have the gumption to accept on this blog that the unending proclaimed CORNERSTONES of the EU-Brussels project: trans-EUropean Economic-Fiscal probity & responsibility and trans-EUropean Communal Integration are as dead as the proverbial Dodo!

  • Comment number 71.

    Excuse me!!!!!

    Your tunusian immigration is subject to the result coming from your blood tests (Fe, DNA and the works). Its not a matter of money, public relations or whatever. What will be the outcome 10, 20 30, 50, ....100 years from now.

    So should be any immigration. Oh yes, it is a ralative issue. What immigration is more positive in the long run than the other.

    In one word, its a matter of public health!!!!!

  • Comment number 72.

    63. At 02:53am 27th Apr 2011, Ricco powers,

    So Brixton has contributed a number of musicians and has 'Black Music' known everywhere, but do you know what Brixton is actually like and how it was in the last 40 years. I do as I originate from nearby, went to school very close by and I can tell you that if Brixton is an example to be looked at there would be no more immigration at all. You talk about policing tactics having been changed, which I guess means you refer to Operation Trident in London, a group whose services are very frequently used in and around Brixton. Oh what a paradise immigration has created that we need a specialist police force like Trident to control the drugs, stabbings and killings.

  • Comment number 73.

    69. At 08:15am 27th Apr 2011, Buzet23 wrote:

    "the European convention on Human Rights and the EU's implementation of it, this piece of obtrusive legislation would not be being used as a reason to allow unrestricted immigration."


    'Obtrusive' being the accurate measure of the Judges who are increasingly asserting it is their Right & Priviolege to make Law and not that of Democratically Elected Parliaments.

    PM Cameron commented last week that it was this Convention of the Human Rights Act together were allowing/providing UK Judges with the authority to create a "new law" on 'Injunctions & personal privacy' without consultation or consent of Parliament.
    In the same vein though not from the EU's CHR the UK Government despite overwhelming disapproval from British Citizens is being obliged by the Human Rights Court to allow convicted, sentenced criminals the Right to Vote .

    I have written many times on here about another branch of the Judiciary becoming dangerous to Democracy: The ever-encroaching, constant aggrandising of authority & power by the EUropean Court of Justice - - it alreqady can overturn any piece of National Legislation that it considers in breech of EU Law & Regulation - - the argument of 'pro-EU' that the 'Competences' protect States from being run by this ECJ simply do not stack up as it is the ECJ that has the supreme authority to determine what is or is not within its remit.

    Post-Maastricht the whole of EUropean & the British Isles have been fast ceding supreme power to a bunch of unlelected, unaccountable, unrepresentative apparatchiks in Brussels. The irony being all along Politicval Leadership has argued ther Courts are the protection against an overmighty core EU when all the time that Judiciary has accrued authority-of-the-last-resot to itself: Quite clearly thsoe Judges do not have to have any responsibility to the Citizen Electorate and therefore are the supreme power.

    Democracy via the Ballot box is dying before our eyes and the 'pro-EU' are too dumb to recognise the danger even as it happens to them!

  • Comment number 74.

    51. At 00:03am 27th Apr 2011, quietoaktree wrote: It is a way for the British hereditary land owners to collect money from the CAP !

    --Her Majesty and Feudal others would not be amused by your suggestion !"



    WHY is this tosh & gibberish constantly let through by the Moderators?

    Surely with...

    56. At 01:25am 27th Apr 2011, quietoaktree wrote:
    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

    Complain about this comment

    57. At 01:45am 27th Apr 2011, quietoaktree wrote:
    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

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    58. At 01:59am 27th Apr 2011, quietoaktree wrote:
    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

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    59. At 02:05am 27th Apr 2011, quietoaktree wrote:
    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

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    60. At 02:21am 27th Apr 2011, quietoaktree wrote:
    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

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    .... the Moderators struck the right note!

  • Comment number 75.

    33. At 20:40pm 26th Apr 2011, margaret howard wrote:
    27 kaebraes writes:
    "The time has long past for Britain to get out of this rotten organization with it's stupid directives and idiotic policies like Schengen...."
    ------------------------------------
    Please kaebraes, could you in future just write England and not Britain as we Scots are quite happy to remain in your so-called 'rotten organi(s)zation'! And shouldn't you have written "The time has long passed...."?



    "'We' Scots.."


    'We'?


    Well, the fragrant one does often claim factual reality that consecutive post thereafter prove conclusively is not the case, but that 'we Scots' is for sure on the upper slopes of delusional!

    Doubtless, MH can write as she does because of her circumstances: Living securely in the England she hates and therefore safe in the knowledge (if the referendum day ever came) she need not live in a Scotland beholden to Brussels she can pronounce on what a great thing it would be for Scotland. Afterall, is that not MH's main complaint about me, Buzet etc. English living outside of England!?

    Yes, it would make sense to 'anti-English speaking peoples' Margaret Howard:

    1) Scotland allegedly kow-towing to 'Political' London as 1 of 4 Union Nations will be so much better-off negotiating with 'Political' Brussels as 1 of 30+ Union Nations!

    2) Scotland's population allegedly venally exploited by England/English Business & Property owners will do so much better when its Business & Industry are owned by Continental EUropeans because as MH knows those EUropeans are all about protecting worker's rights & human rights, so much so any Immigrant can have a Scotsman's/woman's job any day under Social Charter & Schengen!

    3) And Scotland's Citizens as 1 in 60,000,000 in the UK will have so much better chance of Individual recognition & reward as 1 of 500,000,000.


    Yes MH, "could you in future just write England" is what a good many of us ( I can't speak for 'we' English, even my hubris doesn't range that far) South of the Border have longed to occur since Devolved Scotland got its own Parliament by Vote of the Majority English Parliament! There's many an Englishman/woman would be 100% delighted were the English to be treated in such an equal 'Political' manner by the Majority now in London's Parliament.


    Personally, I would hope for the very best of an amicable split with much lamenting of a 300 years Union that brought great credit & progress to peoples north, south, east & west on these Isles.
    However, were 4 Independent Nations to come about, in the case of invective-laden Margaret Howard, late of Scotland, the only feeling must be good riddance.

  • Comment number 76.

    I wonder why pretty much all of these "refugees" are men. Why don't women, children flee?

  • Comment number 77.

    Huaimek #67

    Maybe calling Cameron a "wet blanket" is the limit of criticism on this blog........but we all get your true meaning! So much for the tantalising hints given by him through
    the GE campaign.Of course the first duty of a British Prime Minister should be to the
    British people but when did that last happen? All the hand wringing and bleating that
    accompanies towing the EU line is pure claptrap and vastly overplayed.Cameron uses
    it just as Brown did and the suggestion that they would like to change things but are unable to no longer holds a shred of truth.

    The EU project is damaged beyond repair as any sensible person can see,the glue that held it together has become unstuck,only sheer desperation is holding it together coupled with an inability to see the truth and embrace it with humility.

  • Comment number 78.

    • The time has long past for Britain to be kicked out of the EU with it's stupid isolationalism and idiotic policies like preventing prisoners from voting which seems to be intended to break the UN 1948 declaration of human rights, thus aiding human rights criminals from the world's cesspits by showing staggering hypocrisy towards the 1948 declaration. It seems that most of this movement is coming from Britain where the more bizzare ideas of national sovereignty are trotted out to benefit knee jerk nationalism rather than international law. Certainly there is nothing now in membership of Britain which is of any great value to EU, and in fact withdrawing the membership would most probably be advantageous rather than a disadvantage. The EU does not need Britain, they never have and being tied to this insular anti-european country has been at the expense of greater European integration.

  • Comment number 79.

    can-bin-win # 73 74 75

    Cracking posts! Well said sir/madam!

  • Comment number 80.

    74. At 09:26am 27th Apr 2011, can-bin-win

    I know QOT is a bit odd but I noticed the number of referrals this morning and wondered just how him/her managed to get so many blocked. They must have been even more wayward that usual but then this is the time of the cuckoo.

  • Comment number 81.

    76. At 11:44am 27th Apr 2011, flighttothemoon wrote:

    "I wonder why pretty much all of these "refugees" are men. Why don't women, children flee?"

    There have been many reports in Belgium of the 'men' sending their benefit money back to places like Tunisia and Morocco and claiming child benefit that is also sent back 'home' to where the child lives. These are economic migrants pure and simple, either that or they don't give a monkeys about their families.

  • Comment number 82.

    Well, well, well, wel....................

    No surprises: Yet another BBC 'TECHNICAL FAULT' has arisen!

    This time on the BBC Editor Peter Horrocks' blog-page concerning the World Service.


    NOTHING, absolutely nothing is getting posted after 10.15 a.m.: Niether 'preview' nor 'send' is working... the Comment box just goes into whirly-gig motion and never responds! Your Comment is TRAPPED for all eternity!

    HOW AMAZINGLY CURIOUS -- a blog about the veracity or otherwise of BBC Journalists re Afghanistan & other areas of interest - - after only 13 Comments is not functioning properly due to an alleged BBC 'Technical Fault'.

    My Feedback Complaint went in 2 hours ago - -still no ACKNOWLEDGEMENT from the BBC - - oooooooooh, I wonder why that is!?

  • Comment number 83.

    @trenodio #20

    "the external borders must be secured it this is ever going to work properly"
    --

    I remember my visiting Czechoslovakia some year before 1989. Heavy armed uniforms at the border, barbed wire and wooden watchtowers, machineguns pointing to us poor visitors. And the last exit ramp, which was a piece of a work, cleverly designed probably to prevent any unpredicted exiting. This could stop the bus approaching at the highest speed, I believed. It was a relief to leave behind that border, even if you were not from Czechoslovakia. Entrance to Austria was something oposite.

    No barbed wire, no machineguns, no waiting for the stamp at the border. A true presentation of open and free country. The walls and wires were designed by the oposite side.

    So what has happened with the openess and freedom of the west in the meantime, after the east has changed? Are you suggesting a new USSR is needed or you simply want to redefine the freedom?

  • Comment number 84.

    #73 Can-bin-win

    Excellent posts , completely agree !!!

  • Comment number 85.

    #78 Phoenix

    I tell you straight , your wrong !!!

    1) Britain is one of the major financial contributors to the EU and the financial loss would be deeply felt .
    2) If Britain left or was kicked out , the whole EU would start to fall apart .

    If you can find a way to kick Britain out the British people would be delighted .

    Like it or not and the British people do not , Britain is one of the major players in Europe and looked up to by people in other member states .

  • Comment number 86.

    78. At 12:10pm 27th Apr 2011, phoenix,

    You truly live up to your userid, the ramblings from somebody who probably comes from a land that time forgot, if they weren't so ridiculous they would be amusing. The fact that most British would be very happy to be kicked out of the EU, were it possible but it's not, is one of the few things that any pollster would not deny. The British would love to have their net contributions refused by the rest of the EU and their money returned by the IMF and EU for the bailouts they have contributed to solely in the name of solidarity.

    As to International law and world governance the only two groups that have wanted that are Communists and fundamental Islamists who yearn after a world empire of their own. Why you should imagine that any country takes much notice of that politically inspired talking shop called the UN surprises me.

  • Comment number 87.

    #78

    phoenix;

    "Certainly there is nothing now in membership of Britain which is of any great value to EU, and in fact withdrawing the membership would most probably be advantageous rather than a disadvantage."

    Oh joy, the self-loathing half-Englishman is back with his pearls of wisdom. When you get "us" kicked out can we have our £70bn back? I could do with my 37 years worth of contributions back right now seeing as you regard it as worthless. Especially considering I've got nothing to show for it, except the thrill of watching the Irish enjoy spending it. Cash please, I reckon a cheque would bounce.

  • Comment number 88.

    phoenix # 78

    Tell you what phoenix,you start a campaign to get Britain kicked out of the EU and we will join in.Fair enough? Mind you,we will want our money back.OK?

  • Comment number 89.

    No more ridiculous than poster 28. I just changed some of the words for effect, but the rubbish is infact of the same magnitude. The problem is that you believe one set of rubbish and not the other. I was pretty sure at least one europhobe was going to fall into the elephant trap but didnt believe was going to be THIS quick. As for the Brits not being kicked out of the EU its entirely possible, Britain just has to continue on the path of flagrantly picking and choosing human rights it chooses to obey (China anyone?). And as for international law perhaps Buzet23 if you so despise the 1948 charter of Human rights perhaps you should go and live in Saudi Arabia along with the fundamental Islamists you so despise. I hear they too take a dim view of the 1948 charter of human rights and also deny their prisoners the chance to vote, and possibly even their lives. Infact at a push I can probably forsee a situation where you would condone torture. Unless of course you prefer to pick and choose which rights you like to obey.

  • Comment number 90.

    Huiamek and Champagne Charlie: Belgium, Denmark, Germany France and Italy Cyprus, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Austria, Finland, Sweden are all net contributers. And these countries dont moan half as much as the the UK, whose rebate is paid largely by France and Italy. Now Germany truly has a right to moan.

    I think they should get a rebate.

    I think we all know who would be in line for the contribution to that rebate.

  • Comment number 91.

    Champaigne Charlie: If the EU give your 70bn back will Britain guarantee other EU countrys to continue on the path to political integration without political interference?

  • Comment number 92.

    75 been-binned-lost writes:
    "Afterall, is that not MH's main complaint about me, Buzet etc. English living outside of England!?"
    --------------------------------
    I had no idea.

  • Comment number 93.

    51 quietoak writes:
    "It is a way for the British hereditary land owners to collect money from the CAP !
    --Her Majesty and Feudal others would not be amused by your suggestion !"
    ----------------------------------
    Precisely - well said.

  • Comment number 94.

    90. At 13:52pm 27th Apr 2011, phoenix

    Here we go again, a supporter of the Socialist redistribution of wealth dream complaining about the UK's rebate, as phoenix probably knows the UK would be the largest net contributor if it was not for the rebate. Maybe you would like to explain just why the UK should prejudice its economy and the lifestyles of its population to reward corrupt badly governed EU member states, oh I forgot, it (the EU) is the grand socialist (little s) master plan for serfdom in the EU.

    As for Germany, now where did I hear that the population are in fact moaning about Frau Merkel, and gave her a good kicking in recent polls.

  • Comment number 95.

    89. At 13:42pm 27th Apr 2011, phoenix,

    Boing, you do drop some clangers don't you, if you are so foolish as to have not realised that what comes out of the UN is only ever selectively implemented and that politics and the size/importance of the country determine whether a charter or motion even reaches the stage of being passed. Once something passes the stage of avoiding a veto it is problematic that it is worth the paper it is written on. You mention Saudi Arabia, but what about that huge important country China or many other communist paradises and friends who benefit from the veto's of China and Russia, did you forget them?

  • Comment number 96.

    Re #20 threnodio_II

    "For once, I have great sympathy with the French. Why the hell should they have to carry the burden of a load of illegals who should never have come into the EU in the first place? "





    Now, would you then feel a sympathy for the United States which have at least 20 million of illegal alliens it has to cater to, with hundreds more (including narcotraficantes) coming every day thanks to an inaction of our Commander-in-Chief Barack Hussein?

    [currently preoccupied with protecting citizens of...Libya]

  • Comment number 97.

    #96

    powermeerkat;

    Perhaps if Wal-mart , McDonalds and Taco Bell stop employing them.?

  • Comment number 98.

    #91 Phoenix

    Britain would not stand in the way of other member states integrating .
    However I am not at all sure that Germany and France want to integrate , or other countries , for that matter .
    Britain leaving the EU would be a huge shock to other member states and would very likely cause a break up of the EU .
    As things stand at present , the EU has come to a dead halt , I do not see any prospect of the dreamed of federal state . I don't believe there will ever be one , with or without Britain .

  • Comment number 99.

    @ #63

    "What we need are more migrants from around the World; we will become a be a better people for it."

    Why is that true?

    @ #97

    There are laws on the book, unfortunatly the teeth for the enforcement are not sharp enough. Small buisinesses are at fault as much as big corporations in the hiring of illegals, at least in the cities.

  • Comment number 100.

    92. At 14:18pm 27th Apr 2011, margaret howard wrote:
    75 been-binned-lost writes:
    "Afterall, is that not MH's main complaint about me, Buzet etc. English living outside of England!?"
    --------------------------------
    I had no idea.



    Complain about this comment

    93. At 14:22pm 27th Apr 2011, margaret howard wrote:
    51 quietoak writes:
    "It is a way for the British hereditary land owners to collect money from the CAP !
    --Her Majesty and Feudal others would not be amused by your suggestion !"
    ----------------------------------
    Precisely - well said.



    Complain about this comment




    Ah! United in the tosh & the gibberish - - fragrant deluded lady and the stooge of former DDR Stasi - - obviously incapable of legitimate argument and verified factual reality the T & G twin-set resort to a couple of lines of trivialising, meaningless assertions on utterly periphery issues.

 

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