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The Irish fall-out

Gavin Hewitt | 15:17 UK time, Monday, 22 November 2010

Suddenly everything is in play. Or so it seems. What only recently was discussed at the margins is now in the full glare.

Irish sovereignty. What have the Irish - so proud of their independence - given away? Will this rescue stem uncertainty and give the eurozone time to recover? What lies beyond a bail-out if it doesn't work? How many bail-outs can Europe sustain before it is overwhelmed? Should the UK have demanded some concession from the EU in return for supporting the bail-out?


Sinn Fein protesters outside Dublin parliament, 22 Nov 10

Ireland feels stung, bruised, humiliated. The papers have written of a "nation's outrage". The Irish Finance Minister, Brian Lenihan, has been forced to deny that the forthcoming budget will be "dictated by the IMF and Europe". The 7 December budget, he said, "will be our own budget, nobody else's budget".

Nobody in Ireland is sure any longer. Some people are afraid of "foreign officials" essentially running the economy. Days of speculation lie ahead, for the terms of the bail-out won't be finalised by the end of the month.

What the bail-out has done is to unleash further political uncertainty. The Green Party, in the ruling coalition, wants an early election. The poll could come down to the question: "Who runs Ireland?" The Greens will support the budget, although two independent MPs have indicated they oppose it.

If the hurriedly-arranged bail-out was intended to calm the markets it may not have succeeded. The consensus seems to be that the sovereign debt crisis has a way to run. A comment from Jeremy Batstone-Carr of the stockbrokers Charles Stanley seems to sum up the sentiment. "Now Ireland has fallen," he wrote, "we suspect that the markets will quickly turn their attention to the other embattled peripheral countries, particularly Spain and Portugal".

Portugal is in better shape than Ireland. Its deficit is manageable. It has no property bubble or insolvent banks, but it is finding it difficult to meet its own targets of reducing its deficit and will struggle if the costs of borrowing remain high.

The Spanish said today there was "absolutely no" need for a bail-out and they may yet turn out to be the key country in all this. While the current mechanism could manage a Portuguese bail-out, Spain is an altogether different matter and would test the survivability of the eurozone if down the road it needed rescuing.

Even as the Irish signed up for a rescue fresh doubts were emerging as to whether the Greek bail-out was working. An EU/IMF team is assessing whether Greece qualifies for another tranche of funding. This comes just after Greece announced that public debt was worse than had been revealed. It now seems certain that the country will overshoot its deficit-cutting target.

Now the suspicion in Athens is that pressure is being applied on the government to unveil another round of austerity cuts. Ministers have conceded the talks are "difficult". The expectation is that the public sector will be squeezed further. The government knows that it is already walking a tightrope with the public, many of whom bitterly resent wage cuts and pension reforms.

And here lies the danger for the eurozone. In a monetary union countries in debt have few options. Either they have to go for tough austerity and/or a bail-out.

But what would happen if the people of a country were to refuse to accept further austerity measures? Much of this has yet to play out. I have just been in Portugal. There will be a general strike this week, but the wage cuts and VAT increases kick in in the New Year.

And all the time the gap between what are called the peripheral economies and Germany widens. The only way to correct those imbalances is deflation and that, of course, impacts on growth.

Many of these issues have yet to resolve themselves.

And the Irish crisis has stirred up the Eurosceptics in Britain. They want to know why the British government hasn't used the situation to try to reclaim some powers or to refashion the EU in some way in exchange for helping Ireland. The government, because of investments by UK banks in Ireland, will insist there is national self-interest in help a close neighbour. It has no interest in starting a fight in Brussels, but the Eurosceptics are more vocal than in the early months of the coalition.

And that's what the Irish bail-out has done - put in play some of the big questions.

Comments

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  • 1. At 3:52pm on 22 Nov 2010, Freeborn John wrote:

    There is a saying "we tend we over-estimate short-term change, and under-estimate long-term change". I think this applies to the slow-motion unravelling of the euro, and that people are mistaken in lloking to the short-term problems of Ireland and Portugal.

    Italy will be the country that breaks the euro, and the crucnh will probably come at the end of the next econonic cycle ~2020 +- 2 years. Italy has already accumulated debt of over 110% of GDP, is running a public deficit of 6-7% per annum, and has lost 50% of price comptetiveness against Germany since the euro was introduced. And it has an economy too big to be bailed out.



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  • 2. At 4:24pm on 22 Nov 2010, Mark Clare wrote:

    Geopolitics-An excellent world.We must remember that those who inhabit it have long term, stable , world views .What is occuring now worldwide and in particuler the Eurozone does not even appear on the radar, it is a nothing and a nonsense, unless,the balance of overall power is affected.Then War ensues to redress the imbalance
    There are no conspiracy theories self interests involved ,one must remember ,those who inhabit this level of existence do no think or live their lives as the ordinary citizen does.To comment on their actions is irrelevant. Yes,many will suffer economically as a result ,but, that's the game.
    The Irony of it all, is, the Game is open to anyone from any level of society.They only need to see it,and follow the prescribed path to it.
    Regards
    Mark

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  • 3. At 4:35pm on 22 Nov 2010, Mathiasen wrote:

    ARD has published a list of Irish creditors that shows that UK is the creditor no 1 with 148,4 billions dollars. Germany follows with 138,6 billions. Appr. 70% of the Irish debt is European.

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  • 4. At 4:40pm on 22 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #1 - Freeborn John

    The problem for Italy and potentially all of us is the imminent end of the Berlusconi era. Whatever our perception of the man and his moral standing, it is the case that he has presided over two periods of relatively stable government. But he cannot go on forever. Even if some political crisis or legal complication does not overtake him, he is 75 years of age. If, in the aftermath, Italy reverts to type with non-stop shifts in coalition, what are the chances of a focused long term economic strategy?

    Personally, I do not think it will come to that. I tend to agree with those who say that Spain is simply too big an economy for a straight forward bail out to be affordable. I hear all the Spanish denials but is that not precisely what the Irish were saying this time last week? my instinct is that, if the Euro project is going to fail, it will do so long before Italy puts the final nail in the coffin.

    There is one other consideration. Many eastern European countries which are under a treaty obligation to join the Euro are going to be increasingly tempted to deliberately avoid the convergence criteria unless and until the Eurozone gets its act together. Sweden has been doing this for years. Maybe in the end, the euro will go out 'not with a bang but a whimper'?

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  • 5. At 4:48pm on 22 Nov 2010, Philippe Drevait wrote:

    Is the £7billion UK loan to Ireland an act of good-neighbourliness as Osborne says, or a bail-out of UK banks by stealth?

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  • 6. At 4:51pm on 22 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Mr. Hewitt appears to have a strange connection with the ideas of Irish (or any) independence.

    The scavenging British vultures should pick the bones and charge for it ?

    This is sick !

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  • 7. At 4:58pm on 22 Nov 2010, phoenix wrote:

    From Vox Website

    "The facts: Internal versus external debt burdens
    The PIGS’s problem is that a significant share of their debt is external (see Table 1).

    •Greece, for example, has approximately 79% of government gross debt held by non-residents and has net international investment position of -82.2% of GDP. Interest payments on public debt represented nearly 40% of Greece’s already large 2009 budget deficit – and this is set to increase.
    •Italy, by contrast, does not face the same challenge. Italy’s public debt reached 115% of GDP at the end of 2009, but Italy’s net international investment position were just about -19% of GDP. So, much of Italy’s interest burden is paid to Italians, and some of it is paid back to the government as taxes. As a result, Italy’s public debt dynamics are better than those of the PIGS.
    The flip side of the PIGS’ external interest payments is income and thus tax receipts in the lending nations. The governments of Germany, France, and of other creditor nations earn tax revenues on the PIGS’ interest payments, as taxes on interest-income are typically paid according to the country of residence of the lender.

    In fact, external indebtedness is key to understanding the current crisis. Portugal, Ireland, and Spain have similar external debt dynamics to that of Greece. Despite netting out debt-like assets held by residents abroad, the PIGS’ average net external debt-to-GDP ratio, is approximately 30 percentage points higher than the average gross external debt-to-GNP."

    Need I remind people that Britain external debt is over 400%

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  • 8. At 5:16pm on 22 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #6 - quietoaktree

    "The scavenging British vultures - ".

    Can't possibly argue with that - at least not without coming down to your level, which I have no intention of doing.

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  • 9. At 5:22pm on 22 Nov 2010, one step beyond wrote:

    Re post 4, Threnodio
    'There is one other consideration. Many eastern European countries which are under a treaty obligation to join the Euro are going to be increasingly tempted to deliberately avoid the convergence criteria unless and until the Eurozone gets its act together. Sweden has been doing this for years. Maybe in the end, the euro will go out 'not with a bang but a whimper'?'

    As usual a well thought out post. Will be interesting if any did meet the convergence criteria and under pressure form their populations decided to resist joining. Do not believe the E.U would be in a strong position to try and enforce these treaty obligations

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  • 10. At 5:37pm on 22 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    ´Need I remind people that Britain external debt is over 400%´

    ---A minor detail for Threnodio .

    -- only Communist propaganda against the Monarchy Her Majesties Government !

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  • 11. At 5:42pm on 22 Nov 2010, D Fear wrote:

    N° 7, Phoenix, is right. Has anyone bothered to check up on how much Irish debt is held by German banks, for instance? Let's have some banks paying up. Why should we rescue the very people who are the cause of much of the trouble? That one has yet to be convincingly explained to this taxpayer.

    Indeed, the role of Germany throughout has been disastrous. Owing to a government with a primitive ideology remarkably similar to that of British Tories (and now LibDems), Germany is rapidly becoming the major problem for the Euro zone. Yes, Germans are paying a lot for the privilege of being in this zone, but guess which Germans those are? Yes, ordinary people, not the bankers and insurance lot, nor the big pharmaceuticals companies (whose role in politics is anything but honest). By keeping wages artificially and damagingly low, Germany keeps up its export business, just like China. Both were scolded at Seoul, for the same very good reasons. It is high time that the so-called 'Neo-Liberal' ideology of the totally 'free' market is shown up for what it is - a pack of lies, hiding the greed of the few. Don't believe it? Think this is just left-wing ranting? Think again - and try doing just a little research. Check out Heiner Flassbeck, for example. And ask yourselves how many 'experts' were right when they predicted the current and recent economic crisis!

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  • 12. At 5:48pm on 22 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #8 Threnodio

    I didn´t write the article -- Mr. Hewitt did !

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  • 13. At 6:04pm on 22 Nov 2010, frenchderek wrote:

    Gavin, you ask if Ireland is "giving away it's sovereignty"?

    They did give away sovereignty, both in joining the EU and in joining the Euro. This is what happens- willingly and knowingly - when a nation commits to projects such as these two. But now it seems they might be being asked to give up more sovereignty. If Ireland were a company on the verge of bankruptcy they would have to accept the appointment of receivers - and give away their "sovereignty". However, Ireland is not only a nation state but is a member of the EU and of the Euro.

    The EU/Euro/IMF Euro support package appears to require receiving nations to accept a "heavy guiding hand" on their future economic governance - in Ireland's case the "guiding hand" of the IMF. There might be some short-term loss of sovereignty but not sufficient to make it an attention-grabbing news-line, surely?

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  • 14. At 6:05pm on 22 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #6

    The only 'sickness' that could do with being cured on this blog is Your complete inability to provide one objective, considered, genuinely positive contribution on any topic for the last 2 or more years.

    "...scavenging British vultures.."

    Come on, Margaret, where are You?
    Leap in and defend the author & #6 as a worthwhile observation on Mr Hewitt's article!
    We are all agog at QOT's mastery of the topic: You know it is such a factual, unbiased, reasoned, logical, verified statement.


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  • 15. At 6:05pm on 22 Nov 2010, Scotch Git wrote:


    Come back, Marcus! All is forgiven...

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  • 16. At 6:10pm on 22 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Don´t worry Brits -- You also could not meet the standards for Euro entry !

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  • 17. At 6:14pm on 22 Nov 2010, Anglophone wrote:

    6 Quietoaktree

    Quite so! Which is why I would not be bothering to offer money to help Ireland, even if there's more than a touch of self-interest involved. Your remarks underline my biggest fear, that the "green card" will played and the whole crisis will suddenly, magically become the fault of Britain's banks! What a wonderful opportunity for those whose lives are enriched by festering grudges! Just when years of frosty relationships were finally melting away in the wake of the Good Friday Agreement, up pops a chance to ignite a whole new grievance! What luck for you!

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  • 18. At 6:15pm on 22 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #12

    "I didn´t write the article -- Mr. Hewitt did !"

    What is the matter with it? Try explaining instead of these stupid one-line posts.

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  • 19. At 6:22pm on 22 Nov 2010, Jukka Rohila wrote:

    To Threnodio (4) and one step beyond (9):

    One major reason for Eastern Central European EU countries to join the Euro is that it increases stability and predictability of their economies. The reason for this is that they usually have high levels of Euro denominated debt that creates a major risk for their economies, namely any devaluation of their currency in relation to Euro will make their banks, corporations and individuals feel very great pain.

    Now when looking at the economic situation and what countries do, we should make some comparison cases, for example...

    Slovakia vs. Czech Republic
    ...estimated 4.1% real GDP growth against 2%
    http://www.gfmag.com/gdp-data-country-reports/180-slovakia-gdp-country-report.html
    http://www.gfmag.com/gdp-data-country-reports/286-the-czech-republic-gdp-country-report.html

    Ireland vs. Iceland
    ...both have endured a major crisis largely due to banks and construction.

    Estonia vs. Latvia
    ...ex-Soviet Republics, another one is able join the Euro now and the another one isn't.

    We really shouldn't make broad generalisations based on Greece and Ireland. The problems in Greece were due to a fraud by the government and problems in Ireland were due to neglect of several successive governments to rein in excessive risks taken by the banks. Those are faults of faulty policy, not the fault of Euro. Where there is fault is that Eurozone didn't have adequate policies and mechanisms to handle financial and banking crisis in the Eurozone. However that is going to be fixed under this crisis and after it.

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  • 20. At 6:26pm on 22 Nov 2010, Norman Conquest wrote:

    Well whatever happens to the Euro will first happen to the British pound surely?

    At least the Euro has the fundamentals behind it and some of the world's strongest economies, and what does the British pound have? Tis nothing but a small soft currency, it is likely to face a crisis to, just waiting to collapse.

    If the Euro collapses, it'll be way after the collapse of the British pound.

    Here's what Der Spiegel has to say on the matter, and it says that the British pound is very unsafe.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,681597,00.html

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  • 21. At 6:27pm on 22 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #12

    But at least Threnodio had read it: Judging from Your #6 & #10 it is unlikely You managed the headline before launching another load of tosh & gibberish.

    Still, I'm sure Margaret's 7th cavalry charge of innuendo confirming Your eminently sensible, unprejudiced thoughts will be appearing over this blog any moment now.

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  • 22. At 6:36pm on 22 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #12 - quietoaktree

    I swore that I was not going to rise to it this time but I did a word search. The first mention of the words 'scavenging' and 'vultures' comes in your post at #8. You were not quoting Hewitt at all and well you know it.

    "I didn´t write the article -- Mr. Hewitt did !" - My Aunt Fanny.

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  • 23. At 6:40pm on 22 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    champagne_charlie

    Re #12

    There's nothing wrong with it: It is an expression of opinion on current events concerning Ireland by a BBC Journalist employed as Editor for Eurpean Affairs.
    Whether in or out the 'zone' all of Europe is looking on anxiously at Ireland's unfortunate predicament.

    QOT doesn't grasp any of those basic facts: He's only concerned with invective against Britain/England.

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  • 24. At 6:40pm on 22 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #20

    "Here's what Der Spiegel has to say on the matter, and it says that the British pound is very unsafe. "

    Yeah, in March. 4/10 must do better.

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  • 25. At 6:49pm on 22 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #13. 22 Nov 2010, frenchderek writes:

    "Gavin, you ask if Ireland is "giving away it's sovereignty"?

    "..They did give away sovereignty, both in joining the EU and in joining the Euro. This is what happens- willingly and knowingly - when a nation commits to projects such as these two."

    "..There might be some short-term loss of sovereignty but not sufficient to make it an attention-grabbing news-line, surely?"

    You may well be right on all those observations: Though I have a sneaking feeling the average Irish Citizen may just be waking up to the same conclusions.
    I also suspect that come the Election those same average Irish Citizens aren't going to express too much joy at their new found 'short-term' loss of sovereignty or at the Politcal Parties that led them into that particular 'political' embrace by a now al-powerful supra-National entity.

    Mr Hewitt's article seems entirely to-the-point because for sure today on News channels from CNN to France24 to Sky & Al-Jazeera the Irish 'bail-out' & the loss of Irish ability to act 'independently' has been a major news lead item.



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  • 26. At 6:49pm on 22 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #14 CBW and #18 C_C


    ´And the Irish crisis has stirred up the Eurosceptics in Britain. They want to know why the British government hasn´t used the situation to try to reclaim some powers or to refashion the the EU in some way in exchange for helping Ireland´

    Mr. Hewitt did NOT use ´some Eurosceptics´ -- and I see no protesters !

    So my # 6 --- with its flowery language ---STANDS !

    ´The scavenging British vultures should pick the bones and charge for it ? ´

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  • 27. At 6:51pm on 22 Nov 2010, Norman Conquest wrote:

    @ 24

    champagne_charlie,

    what makes you think that things have improved since then?

    Britain's debts are still growing and will be growing even after all the cuts which are touted now.

    To be honest (and I too have no Schadenfreude) but I think the things have got a lot worse since then.

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  • 28. At 6:52pm on 22 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #16

    "Don´t worry Brits -- You also could not meet the standards for Euro entry !"

    Finally, you offer some good news! Cheers.

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  • 29. At 7:04pm on 22 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #26

    "Mr. Hewitt did NOT use ´some Eurosceptics´ -- and I see no protesters !"

    A deliberate and pedantic misinterpretation by you. He is referring to a handful of Tory backbenchers and thats it, as you would know if you'd watched the Parliamentary debate as I did, had any understanding of the British position and had a better grasp of English.

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  • 30. At 7:06pm on 22 Nov 2010, MaxSceptic wrote:

    The Independent republic of Ireland, 1922-2010.

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  • 31. At 7:09pm on 22 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #27

    NQ;

    You were specifically talking about the pound, which is stronger against the dollar(1.6 v 1.5) and the euro(1.18 v 1.10) than it was in March. That article was written even before the election, prior to any announcement on cuts. The bond market for the UK has been stable and low, and the credit referencing agencies have endorsed the UK's debt reduction plan, strengthening the UKs AAA rating. The UK has a long road ahead of it to solve its problems....the Irish ran out of road.

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  • 32. At 7:12pm on 22 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    11 just another observer writes:

    "By keeping wages artificially and damagingly low, Germany keeps up its export business, just like China."

    German minimum wage: Hour 8.40euro Month 1,466
    United Kingdom Hour 6.83 Month 1,117
    France Hour 8.86 Month 1,343

    Any observation?

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  • 33. At 7:15pm on 22 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "What have the Irish - so proud of their independence - given away? "

    "independence" today is over estimated.

    Today's word is co-operation. First one gives you the old village chiefs like Cameron and Brian Cowen. But world wide co-operation gives longer growth. Not only the short speculative ones we are having due last two decades.

    Co-operation gives everbody more money, but only to those who will co-operate.

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  • 34. At 7:17pm on 22 Nov 2010, MaxSceptic wrote:

    quietoaktree wrote:

    ´The scavenging British vultures should pick the bones and charge for it ?

    As I understand it, quietoaktree is technically correct: Britain proposes to loan Ireland funds at about 5% interest, at a time when Britain can raise money more cheaply on the money markets, so making a neat little profit (on the assumption, of course, that Ireland does not default on these loans).

    Germany, on the other hand, is loaning Ireland money via the EU bail-out package. I'm not sure of the details but being an EU concoction it is bound to favour the sickly over the healthy, and Germany will not benefit from this financial imposition.

    queitoaktree's typically intemperate anti-British comment, however, seems to me like sour grapes.


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  • 35. At 7:37pm on 22 Nov 2010, JP wrote:

    Ireland and Greece have messed their finances. Why should those countries help that have a good fiscal policy and have followed the euro deficit rules?
    Ireland has wasted the money on property bubble. Why other countries tax payers should give hard earned money to Ireland? It is like awarding those who fail most.
    I think dual euro system would be a good idea, the south euro and the north euro. The south euro would be reserved to PIIGS countries and the north to the rest.

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  • 36. At 7:41pm on 22 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #5. At 4:48pm on 22 Nov 2010, Philippe Drevait

    And the sale of the Greek bonds to the ECB by the French banks when the German banks could not was just what Philippe, an accident?

    Pot kettle black and humbug!

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  • 37. At 7:53pm on 22 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #32. At 7:12pm on 22 Nov 2010, margaret howard

    Typical from you to exhibit little or no understanding of basic economics, those figures are gross rates and not net (in your pocket) rates. If you even knew a fraction of what taxation is like in many EU paradises you would not have said that.

    PS. the tax credits like you probably enjoy courtesy of the English are rarely in existence over here.

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  • 38. At 7:55pm on 22 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #33. At 7:15pm on 22 Nov 2010, Pate

    Yawn, Yawn, yes we've heard this rubbish before and it's like a Nigerian e-mail scam, you delete it as quickly as possible in case it contains a virus!

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  • 39. At 8:01pm on 22 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #34. At 7:17pm on 22 Nov 2010, MaxSceptic

    True to an extent but don't forget that the UK assistance will be in three parts probably, the bilateral part, the IMF part and the EU stabilising part with the later two being under the same terms as every other contributor.

    The English are being very friendly to their neighbours in my opinion since they are supporting in three ways, lets hope the recipient is both grateful and thankful. If not the English should desist from supporting any more Euro problems.

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  • 40. At 8:05pm on 22 Nov 2010, john wrote:

    to my dear friend and co citizen of the EU from Ireland.
    Do not fell less proud to be Irish, in any family wen one of them got a problem all the family will pull together to resolve the problem in the best interest of the person and the family.
    My friend do blame you government for you present trouble the birth of the problem lay with the USA Bank system and the 3 credit agency base in New York which have no knowledge of the real live.
    The job of above is to save the Dollar and stop the Euro to become the first currency in the world .
    Support you government and you EU family and together will win.
    You EU brother and co citizen.
    John

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  • 41. At 8:09pm on 22 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    champagne_charlie

    what about the hilarious story "Britain offers Ireland help above EU bailout" story? The UK "nada talk" at the end, as i expected, will only bail out Ireland with only 10 billion euros...just the amount needed to save their own banking system...

    You see! The Irish were so proud to accept the so rich "Murano glass-made" British tiger bail out so they finally opt for the consistently EU bail out? What a pity...Irish! You better get out from the euro and the EU right now and actually be part of the UK...by doing so you avoid the bankrupt and you finally get unified with North Ireland :)))))))

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  • 42. At 8:10pm on 22 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    35. At 7:37pm on 22 Nov 2010, JP wrote:
    Ireland and Greece have messed their finances."

    Well they never would have done that if the USA banks were not started it. The blame is still on the United Statets of America and their too loose property loans.

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  • 43. At 8:10pm on 22 Nov 2010, Jukka Rohila wrote:

    To JP (35):

    I don't understand this division between northern and southern Euro states. Many northern states that today fare well have in the past had plunders of their own and there is no reason that they couldn't come up with new plunders. Also many northern states aren't that healthy, many have high amount of public debt, big deficits and a pension time bomb about to blow up. Lets not also forget that if China would enter depression, export lead Eurozone economies would be in big troubles.

    Talking about Euro splitting to two is nonsense. Eurozone either stays together or brakes up completely, however a brake up of the Eurozone would not only be the end of it, it would also be the end of EU and cause world wide economic chaos, taking along it other major economies.

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  • 44. At 8:14pm on 22 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #32 - margaret howard

    Good heavens, Margaret, where do you get your information? Apart from "construction workers, electrical workers, janitors, roofers, painters, and letter carriers; set by collective bargaining agreements . . ", Germany does not have a minimum wage.

    #34 - MaxSceptic

    It is a perfectly sensible business arrangement which suits both parties. I don't believe anyone is pretending otherwise. But it hardly amounts to 'scavenging'. The terms of the EU/ECB deal have yet to be announced but I would be surprised if, on the basis of the Greek deal, it will be any less than 5% so that too will be a nice little earner for the ECB providing no one defaults. If Germany does not benefit directly, it is because they are are locked into Euro land. It was their choice.

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  • 45. At 8:14pm on 22 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "38. At 7:55pm on 22 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
    we've heard this rubbish before and it's like a Nigerian e-mail scam"

    Nobody really can see the similarity. The smart enough people will understand my opinion.

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  • 46. At 8:23pm on 22 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #35 - JP

    No one is giving anyone anything. These are loans repayable with interest.

    The side benefit - at least for the Eurozone is that they just might save the single currency as a result of this. For Britain, they might just save a second bailout of Lloyds TSB and RBS.

    But it is still worth a few bob providing, as I said above, no one defaults.

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  • 47. At 8:25pm on 22 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    CBW.

    Did you see my 129 on previous thread?

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  • 48. At 8:34pm on 22 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:


    Buzet 37
    11 just another observer writes:
    "By keeping wages artificially and damagingly low, Germany keeps up its export business, just like China."
    My reply at 32:
    German minimum wage: Hour 8.40euro Month 1,466
    United Kingdom Hour 6.83 Month 1,117
    France Hour 8.86 Month 1,343
    ---------------------------
    Buzet 32
    "Typical from you to exhibit little or no understanding of basic economics, those figures are gross rates and not net (in your pocket) rates. If you even knew a fraction of what taxation is like in many EU paradises you would not have said that."

    Fair enough, so could you please tell us with your knowledge of basic economics how the wages in the other Eurozone countries compare with those I quoted fr Germany, France and UK, after deductions, of course.?

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  • 49. At 8:38pm on 22 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #41

    Ellinas;

    Say that again in English.

    The UK has offered Ireland a 7bn euro loan, as per the original article, what part of that dont you understand? Were you expecting the UK to give Ireland 90bn Euros all by itself? Because I certainly wasnt and nor was anyone else...expect you for some bizarre ouzo-fuelled reason.

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  • 50. At 8:41pm on 22 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #41 - Ellinas

    Oh No, Not another one!

    The total value of all packages to Ireland is around 80 billion Eur. Of this, the UK is putting up in the region of 8 billion, one way or another. This is roughly 10% of the total. It may have escaped your attention but there are 11 Euro zone members and 184 contributing members to the IMF. 10% is considerably more than proportional. That some of this will be bilateral is purely pragmatic. You do not need a degree in politics or a crystal ball to figure this out. Just a calculator. (You know? All Programs > Accessories> Calculator? OK?)

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  • 51. At 9:14pm on 22 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #49 - champagne_charlie

    Why don't we have a whip round and see if we can't raise a quick 80 billion? It would be worth it just to shut up the whingers.

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  • 52. At 9:24pm on 22 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Thren

    Thanks for #129.

    Yes, will be in touch.

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  • 53. At 9:27pm on 22 Nov 2010, MaxSceptic wrote:

    threnodio_II @44,

    I also agree that it is a sensible - and mutually beneficial - business arrangement. quietoaktree introduced the phrase 'scavenging'. I merely pointed out that he was jealous.

    I notice that our teutonic friend has gone - uh - quiet. Shhhhhh.....

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  • 54. At 9:31pm on 22 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #48 - margaret howard

    I will leave Buzet to answer the rest of your questions but, as regards Germany, it has marginal rates of progressive income tax which means that the level of taxation is related directly to the ability to pay. A person on the national minimum wage will pay zero income tax because 15% of zero is zero. This would be true even if a source of unearned income pushed the employee into high rate tax of 45% providing the earned icome is based on the national minimum wage because 45% of zero is zero. How can this be true?

    Because THERE IS NO STATUTORY MINIMUM WAGE IN GERMANY. How many more times, for crying out loud.

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  • 55. At 9:32pm on 22 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 56. At 9:37pm on 22 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #6, #10, 12, 16 & 26

    I will take the above as a direct confirmation that 'NO' You really do not have anything to contribute to this topic other than prejudiced bile against Britain/England & in this case You have not even understood the headline never mind the topic being discussed.


    Being a helpful sort & realising Your limitations make this predicament a common occurrence for You and just to point You in the right direction it is not about the UK/England at all: It is about the following, "..And here lies the danger for the eurozone. In a monetary union countries in debt have few options. Either they have to go for tough austerity and/or a ***bail-out***.

    NB: 'Austerity' & 'Bail-out' is what Ireland is going through at this time.

    Hope that clears matters up for You.

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  • 57. At 9:39pm on 22 Nov 2010, Malkava wrote:

    #40 john

    Interesting. Perhaps your comment was not meant to be taken this way, but from the sound of it, I am getting the impression that the only way for the EU to survive is to be united by a mutual dislike of an outside entity - the United States in particular? (Maybe Britain? At least judging from the comments I have read.)

    I suppose that makes sense, in a way. However, regardless of how you may perceive Europe's predicament, you cannot solely rely on feel-good sentiment to unite the whole of Europe. Quite honestly, I cannot think of anything that truly can.

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  • 58. At 9:43pm on 22 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #45. At 8:14pm on 22 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "38. At 7:55pm on 22 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
    we've heard this rubbish before and it's like a Nigerian e-mail scam

    Nobody really can see the similarity. The smart enough people will understand my opinion.

    Co-operation gives everbody more money, but only to those who will co-operate."

    Oh yeah, as to the similarity to the e-mail scams, with them you send money (cooperate) on the thought that you will get money back, but the saps never do as the scammers are brighter, thus it's a scam. Your ideological cooperation thought makes no allowance for that at all.

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  • 59. At 9:49pm on 22 Nov 2010, ady wrote:

    Looks like the Europeans have achieved in a mere 30 years what the English couldn't do in 500 years.

    The conquering of Ireland.

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  • 60. At 9:51pm on 22 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    NormanConquest

    Re #20 & "..Well whatever happens to the Euro will first happen to the British pound surely? ..At least the Euro has the fundamentals behind it.."

    Interesting perspective: Especially as it is the EUro-zone that is currently under pressure from the World' Financial 'markets'.

    Could You itemise these 'fundamentals' behind the EUro that You allege are not behind the Pound?
    Among the top7 EU member Economies is the UK, Sweden & Poland and none are in the EUro-zone at this time!?

    I'm not saying the EUro isn't a perfctly feasible Currency in the longterm, but it is it fundamental weaknesses that have led to the present crises: It has 15 entirely diverse members whose Economies are woefully out-of-balance with each other and until this major flaw is sorted out the EUro is doomed to repeat these crisis on quite large scale.

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  • 61. At 9:51pm on 22 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #48. At 8:34pm on 22 Nov 2010, margaret howard

    Evidently you've never had to work out payroll amounts otherwise you would not have made such a foolish statement. It will depend on the personal circumstances of the recipient and the taxation/social security rules of the country. For instance in both Belgium and France the rules differ between blue and white collar workers, and managers.

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  • 62. At 10:16pm on 22 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #55 - quietoaktree

    In the highly improbable event of my having any aunts still alive, they will be far too old to be earning a living in a horizontal position and far too frail to be in any other position.

    Now be a good little tree and get back onto topic because any more of this junk and I will certainly start referring you.

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  • 63. At 10:28pm on 22 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #56 CBW

    Will you stop wasting my time !

    NO ONE has yet distanced themselves from Mr. Hewitt´s statement !

    An explanation of what is clearly written -- and what many as yourself preach, is only the Brits on this blog in prayer !

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  • 64. At 10:32pm on 22 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #56 - cool_brush_work

    'Austerity' & 'Bail-out' is what Ireland is going through at this time.

    Austerity for sure but bail out maybe not. I have been following developments on Paul Mason's blog and, if the two independent MPs vote against the budget, it will not go through. In the meantime, the Greens are now withdrawing support for the coalition which will mean an election in January. On the back of this, Labour and Fine Gael - says Paul - are asking for direct negotiations with the IMF, ECB et al. This is beginning to look like a situation where negotiations may have to go on hold until January at the earliest. This could send the Euro zone into a state of meltdown, especially if say Portugal found they could no longer manage either.

    Depending on you sense of humour, this is either degenerating into something resembling a Whitehall farce or, more likely, a bunch of sociable lemmings inviting all the other creatures to join them for a swim.

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  • 65. At 10:32pm on 22 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 66. At 10:32pm on 22 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #51

    "Why don't we have a whip round and see if we can't raise a quick 80 billion? It would be worth it just to shut up the whingers. "

    We dont need a whip round, we just need to stop funding the NHS and give it all to Ireland (to keep the Greek happy) and interest free( to keep the German-American-French Canadian-Sri Lankan hermaphrodite happy).

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  • 67. At 10:47pm on 22 Nov 2010, Henry Quimper wrote:

    What about the Italians? Aren't they in a bad state too?

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  • 68. At 10:52pm on 22 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #59

    "Looks like the Europeans have achieved in a mere 30 years what the English couldn't do in 500 years.

    The conquering of Ireland."

    Very, very wrong on so many levels I cant even be bothered to try to correct it.

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  • 69. At 10:54pm on 22 Nov 2010, Norman Conquest wrote:

    60. At 9:51pm on 22 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    NormanConquest

    Re #20 & "..Well whatever happens to the Euro will first happen to the British pound surely? ..At least the Euro has the fundamentals behind it.."

    Interesting perspective: Especially as it is the EUro-zone that is currently under pressure from the World' Financial 'markets'.

    Could You itemise these 'fundamentals' behind the EUro that You allege are not behind the Pound?
    Among the top7 EU member Economies is the UK, Sweden & Poland and none are in the EUro-zone at this time!?

    I'm not saying the EUro isn't a perfctly feasible Currency in the longterm, but it is it fundamental weaknesses that have led to the present crises: It has 15 entirely diverse members whose Economies are woefully out-of-balance with each other and until this major flaw is sorted out the EUro is doomed to repeat these crisis on quite large scale.

    ++++++

    Cool Brush Work,

    This is easy and I strongly suspect you know the right answer yourself but are just going through the motions for the sake of the argument.

    The fundamentals are like "brick and mortar", the number of people using a currency, the number of strong economies using it, whether or not it is a major world (reserve) currency, and the Euro of course is. In fact, it has weathered the controversies and the crises very well so far. Under the circumstances it's doing very well.

    Also Germany, France, Italy and Spain are in the top5 EU economies and they are all using it, and China has huge reserves in Euros which is a further cushion, but I am certain it doesn't have much British pounds in its portfolio.

    Well and as to the British pound, for better or for worse it is none of the above. I am not saying the Euro will not eventually go away but, if it happens, it will happen a long way from now.

    It may be under attack from the speculators right now but what I am surprised about is that they don't attack the British pound which is a much easier target and you know it's been done before.

    I guess it proves that most of the speculators, hedge funds, etc. are in fact Anglo-Saxon entities and may be reluctant at this time to turn against Britain and its pound but the time will come eventually when the stench of potential profits to be made will turn their heads and then we (or rather you) will have to say good-bye to the pound and god only knows to what else.

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  • 70. At 10:56pm on 22 Nov 2010, Curt Carpenter wrote:

    Can anyone explain to me what the Irish hope to accomplish by holding a general election in January? Aside from venting, is there a point?

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  • 71. At 11:05pm on 22 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #63

    quietoaktree;

    "NO ONE has yet distanced themselves from Mr. Hewitt´s statement !"

    Any chance you might like to tell us which statement you want us to distance ourselves from? It might expedite matters and stop you wasting EVERYBODYS time.

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  • 72. At 11:08pm on 22 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #63 - quietoaktree

    This puts me in mind of the story of the life-long billiard player who was finally introduced to the game of snooker.

    "My goodness", he said looking at the freshly set up table.

    "What a lot of balls".

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  • 73. At 08:59am on 23 Nov 2010, lacerniagigante wrote:

    "Should the UK have demanded some concession from the EU in return for supporting the bail-out?"

    You can't help yourself, Mr Hewitt?

    What's next? A Victorian-style embargo on Ireland, to starve the Celtic traitors into submission?

    It is in Britain's best economical interest that Irish economy doesn't go down. Britain don't need "concessions" (and is there some concession Britain hasn't gotten yet from the EU?).

    It doesn't seem to skin in that if Ireland goes down, the first countries to suffer greatly from it would be Northern Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales. Yes Ireland and Britain may be independent, but as an economy they are quite closely related.

    Before the pop open the fizz of Schadenfreude, I think Euroskeptic Brits should reflect on how the markets sank them down in 1992 and hold their temptation to fingerpoint the monetary union Ireland is in.

    ERM has been blamed for long for the 1992 crisis, but that is confusing symptom for cause.

    In fact, a bit of analysis it was Thatcher's Britain overreliance on Oil and Markets (and the hubris that Markets would never Britain sink) and the closure of backbone industries (which Britain still lacks, if compared to France, Germany, even Italy and Spain) that eventually led to its fragile economy to its downfall. Lessons should have been learned then and now, that you should not trust the markets when push comes to shove and should not rely too much on them (Greece, Ireland, Portugal?, Britain??). Of course, markets do play their role but they should be subordinate to the industry and overall economy, not the other way round (France, Germany, Sweden, etc.)

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  • 74. At 09:02am on 23 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Estonia vs. Latvia
    ...ex-Soviet Republics, another one is able join the Euro now and the another one isn't."






    Except, that even Esthonians have second thoughts and may do exactly what the Swedes have done.

    Make sure they are not 'qualified' come January.

    [Just like Norwegians. :)]


    BTW. I have been to both Slovakia and Slovenia a year ago.

    And they were cursing euro even then.

    I wonder what they're saying now.

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  • 75. At 09:08am on 23 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "By keeping wages artificially and damagingly low, Germany keeps up its export business, just like China."

    German minimum wage: Hour 8.40euro Month 1,466
    United Kingdom Hour 6.83 Month 1,117
    France Hour 8.86 Month 1,343

    Any observation?








    Yes, higher and higher percentage of so called 'German' production is actually done these days in such cheap labour East European countries, like Czechia, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia.

    [not to mention Mexico -Volkswagen]


    Any comment from the sully Scottish highlands?

    [besides the well known by the three witches from Macbeth]

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  • 76. At 09:19am on 23 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    From BBC's HYS:

    Claire Jackson, 30, from Cork, talks about her wish to move to the UK next year.

    "I am currently unemployed and living back at home with my mother.

    Any doubts I had about emigrating faded this week. I cannot wait three, five or ten years to get my life back.

    It's either emigrate or wait for the Irish economy to pick up again.

    I will be moving to the UK next year. It is very difficult to save while on the dole but I am determined.

    I cannot wait to get away from here and that is a heartbreaking thing to say.

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  • 77. At 10:21am on 23 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #76. At 09:19am on 23 Nov 2010, powermeerkat

    The shame for that lass is that since a certain EU directive the emigrants from Ireland are just treated as any other EU migrant, before they have special rights as if they were Commonwealth citizens. The EU's everybody is the same rule has meant a few unpalatable effects have come to the fore whereby in some cases a citizen has lost out.

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  • 78. At 10:47am on 23 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #73. At 08:59am on 23 Nov 2010, lacerniagigante

    Trying to peg the GBP to 3 DEM was what caused the 1992 crisis and since the German economy was better than the UK economy the move was a crass failure as the speculators moved in. Now think to what happened with the introduction, of the Euro, almost none of the entrants met the convergence criteria and the exchange rates were set arbitrarily based on as if the convergence criteria was good, plus many of the economies are quite dissimilar. Is it any surprise that sooner or later some of the economies would fail?

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  • 79. At 10:49am on 23 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    'Before the pop open the fizz of Schadenfreude, I think Euroskeptic Brits should reflect on how the markets sank them down in 1992 and hold their temptation to fingerpoint the monetary union Ireland is in.'




    Indeed, there is no point.

    Since in a year or two this union will cease to exist.

    [at least in its current shape and form]


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  • 80. At 10:59am on 23 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "And now for something completely different"


    South Korea says it has scrambled F-16 fighter jets and
    returned fire after North Korea shot dozens of rounds of
    artillery onto a populated South Korean island near the
    countries' western border.

    South Korea's YTN television says two people were injured,
    several houses were on fire and that shells were still
    falling on Yeonpyeong island. (AP)

    Anybody in EUSSR even slightly concerned?

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  • 81. At 11:14am on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #77 Buzet 23

    ´The shame for that lass is that since a certain EU directive the emigrants from Ireland are just treated as any other EU migrant, before they have special rights as if they were Commonwealth citizens. The EU's everybody is the same rule has meant a few unpalatable effects have come to the fore whereby in some cases a citizen has lost out.´

    Please clarify !

    You lost us !

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  • 82. At 11:33am on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #71 C_C

    I am becoming tired at typing out Mr. Hewitt´s copyrighted bigotry --just for you !

    If you are a member of the geriatric British contingent --please confirm !

    -- otherwise --look at our previous exchanges.

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  • 83. At 11:37am on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #80 Poweremeerkat

    No !

    Only yesterdays latest land grab news from Israel.

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  • 84. At 11:45am on 23 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #81. At 11:14am on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree

    I thought I'd already explained that one several times now.

    An example, QOT decides to accept a job offer in Estonia and goes to live and work there for some years until he's made redundant. Since he is unlikely to wish to remain in Estonia and for some strange reason wishes to return to his previous country of domicile, he tries to return. However under EU rules he is just an EU migrant and no matter whether he is a national or not, or how much he previously paid in the countries system, he is just another migrant with no more rights. His country will inform him to stay in Estonia and accept whatever social help they offer until he finds a new job (if).

    This applies to the Irish lass since prior to this directive the Southern Irish had a truly open door Schengen with the UK and could migrate at will, now they are just another migrant.

    Does that help?

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  • 85. At 11:50am on 23 Nov 2010, Friendlycard wrote:

    7. phoenix:

    "From Vox Website"

    Sounds a useful source, but I can't find it.... can you direct us? Thanks.

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  • 86. At 12:03pm on 23 Nov 2010, Freeman wrote:

    "Anybody in EUSSR even slightly concerned?"

    Anything that could wake the Dragon should have everyone concerned...

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  • 87. At 12:06pm on 23 Nov 2010, Freeman wrote:

    "Why don't we have a whip round and see if we can't raise a quick 80 billion? It would be worth it just to shut up the whingers. "

    Nothing will shut up the whingers with the possible exception of the annihilation of all life on earth... which obviously would be the fault of the British ...and perhaps the USA.

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  • 88. At 12:14pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #84 Buzet 23

    Your choice of wording is still not the best -- and the Commonwealth comparison is still unclear.

    Could you clarify that please ?

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  • 89. At 12:15pm on 23 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #82

    I am becoming tired at typing out Mr. Hewitt´s copyrighted bigotry --just for you !

    When have you ever typed out anything for anybody? You can barely complete one sentence per post, and even that is indecipherable. How can you be becoming tired at something you dont even do? Just write down what "bigotry" Hewitt is displaying. Its simple.

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  • 90. At 12:17pm on 23 Nov 2010, one step beyond wrote:

    R e post 73, lacerniagigante wrote:
    "Should the UK have demanded some concession from the EU in return for supporting the bail-out?"
    You can't help yourself, Mr Hewitt?
    What's next? A Victorian-style embargo on Ireland, to starve the Celtic traitors into submission?"

    There may be a handful of eurosceptics who believe this but as a E.U. sceptic myself I am against any interference in the sovereignity of member countries. But more important, I do not know if you are aware that George Osbourne on behalf of the U.K. Government has specifically said it would not be putting pressure on the Irish to meet conditions, such as the reduction in corporation tax. Unfortunately others in positions of actual power in Europe have been exerting just that pressure. So your post should be directed at them, not the U.K. I look forward to you using similar rhetoric against Germany , Spain and others, who in your eyes are trying to ‘starve the Celtic traitors into submission’

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  • 91. At 12:30pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #90 OSB

    --- Don´t you mean putting pressure on the Irish to INCREASE corporation tax ?

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  • 92. At 12:42pm on 23 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]44 & 54 threnodio writes:

    #32 - margaret howard
    "Good heavens, Margaret, where do you get your information? Apart from "construction workers, electrical workers, janitors, roofers, painters, and letter carriers; set by collective bargaining agreements . . ", Germany does not have a minimum wage."

    And again at 54:

    "Because THERE IS NO STATUTORY MINIMUM WAGE IN GERMANY. How many more times, for crying out loud."

    Minimum wages by country
    Monthly minimum wage (EUR) Hourly rate Hourly rate (EUR)

    Albania 18,000 lekë 129.00 104 lekë 0.75
    Andorra €915.20 915.20 €5.28 5.28
    Armenia 25,000 dram 47.80 144 dram 0.28
    Austria €1,000 1,000.00 €5.77 5.77
    Azerbaijan 60 manat 54.73 0.35 manat 0.32
    Belarus 229,000 rubles 57.37 1,321 rubles 0.33
    Belgium €1,440.67 1,440.67 €8.31 8.31
    Bosnia and Herzegovina 320 convertible marka 163.61 1.85 marka 0.95
    Bulgaria 240 leva 122.59 1.38 leva 0.70
    Croatia 2,814.00 kuna 388.05 16.23 kuna 2.24
    Cyprus €840 840.00 €4.85 4.85
    Czech Republic 8,000 koruna 314.91 46.15 koruna 1.82
    Denmark - - 106.15 kroner 14.24 ,
    Estonia 4,350 krooni 278.02 25.10 krooni 1.60
    Finland - - - -
    France €1,343.77 1,343.77 €8.86 8.86
    Georgia 115 lari 48.98 0.66 lari 0.28
    Germany €1,466.76 1,466,76 €8.40[Note
    Greece €740.00 740.00 €4.27 4.27
    Hungary 73,500 forint 277.36 424. forint 1.60
    Iceland 130,000 króna 751.59 750 króna 4.34
    Ireland €1,499.33 1,499.33 €8.65 8.65
    Italy - - - -
    Kosovo - - - -
    Latvia 180 lati 254.94 1.04 lati 1.47
    Liechtenstein - - - -
    Lithuania 800 litai 231.70 4.62 litai 1.34
    Luxembourg €1,682.76 1,682.76 €9.71 9.71
    Republic of Macedonia 15,463.38 Denar 252.25 - -
    Malta €634.75 634.75 €3.66 3.66
    Moldova 766.10 lei 46.18 4.42 lei 0.27
    Monaco €1,509.73 1,509.73 €8.71 8.71
    Montenegro €55.00 55.00 €0.32 0.32
    Netherlands €1,398.00 1,398.00 €8.07 8.07
    Norway - - - -
    Poland 1,317 złotych 337.80 7.60 złotych 1.95
    Portugal €475.00 475.00 €2.74 2.74
    Romania 600 lei 147.34 3.53 lei 0.87
    Russia 4,330 rubles 109.22 25.00 rubles 0.63
    San Marino €1,220.27 1,220.27 €7.04 7.04
    Serbia 12,133.33 dinars 121.33 70 dinars 0.70
    Slovakia €307.70 307.70 €1.76 1.76
    Slovenia €562.00 562.00 €3.32 3.32
    Spain €738.50 738.30 €4.26 3.65
    Sweden - - - -
    Switzerland - - - -
    Turkey 760.50 lira 380.25 5.00 lira 2.50
    Ukraine 869 hryven' 88.56 5.2 hryven' 0.53
    United Kingdom £1,005.33 1,117.87 £5.93 6.83

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  • 93. At 12:53pm on 23 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #88. At 12:14pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree

    For heavens sake did you not know that Commonwealth citizens have special passport and residency rights in the UK, the exact rights have altered over the years but if you look at a HM government web site for wannabe immigrants you'll see what the current rights are bearing in mind the EU directives concerning immigration into the EU.

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  • 94. At 12:59pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Buzet 23

    In a nutshell-- 1st step in my understanding #84

    Unemployment benefits are not transferrable from one EU country to another ?

    Are you mixing ´social´and ´unemployment benefits´?

    ´Since he is unlikely to wish to remain in Estonia and for some strange reason wishes to return to his previous country of domicile, he tries to return. However under EU rules he is just an EU migrant and no matter whether he is a national or not, or how much he previously paid in the countries system, he is just another migrant with no more rights. His country will inform him to stay in Estonia and accept whatever social help they offer until he finds a new job (if).´

    Pension contributions are not lost.

    ´His country will inform him´ --that he is in exile ???

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  • 95. At 1:14pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #93 Buzet 23

    Commonwealth citizens do NOT have special special passport and residency rights in the UK-- they have DIFFERENT rights of residency --depending on the QUALITY of their British passport !

    ONLY those who have residency (right of return?) rights in the UK --have EU rights !

    No wonder #84 uses corkscrew language and logic in some obscure defense of Britain!

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  • 96. At 1:28pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #84 Buzet 23

    So the best that can happen to an EU citizen is to be stuck in Germany until death where the best social benefits are ?

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  • 97. At 1:54pm on 23 Nov 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:

    "And the Irish crisis has stirred up the Eurosceptics in Britain. They want to know why the British government hasn't used the situation to try to reclaim some powers or to refashion the EU in some way in exchange for helping Ireland."

    Trying to do that is a waste of time. The only sensible option is to leave the "EU".

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  • 98. At 2:05pm on 23 Nov 2010, ghostofsichuan wrote:

    One would think that watching the Irish expereince would lead to a greater call for regulating banking and financial services. The banking industry, a collusion group that would be considered criminal in assoication in any other industry, can crush a national economy. If Ireland is unsafe, all nations are unsafe when dealing with the larger banks and their wealthy patrons. Blaming the victims is the matra of the other governments, that also happen to be dependent on the bankers for their loans to cover debt. Shills and frontmen for the bankers that caused it all. I am not saying the governments were not the facilitators as the banking lobbyist ensured that laws and regulations would be reduced to prevent any criminal actions for what they were doing. Outside take-overs of nations are usually preceeded by internal corruption of the government.

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  • 99. At 2:36pm on 23 Nov 2010, Richard35 wrote:

    Surely the real issue here is whether the bailout strategy will work or not. I know Mr.Hewitt adds all sorts of other political elements but it is economics which is driving things forward here. If this is so then this analysis on the usually accurate notayesmanseconomics blog is concerning.
    "As to how much aid Ireland will require I am starting to question if the proposed 90 billion or so Euro rescue package will in fact be enough. After all we still do not know the full-scale of Ireland’s banking problems and the history of them is that they have got worse as time has gone by. The problem is that if you raise the size of the bailout then you raise the size of the problem of it ever being repaid."

    So in effect he is raising the possibility that nothing might be gained except the buying of some time...
    http://notayesmanseconomics.wordpress.com

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  • 100. At 3:11pm on 23 Nov 2010, john wrote:

    On response to Malkava.
    The substance of my comment is as follow:the USA is a great power and is logic for them to protect the Dollar bat Europe have the right to do the same to protect the Euro.
    The problem is simple the current capitalist system largely base on the US model lack of a safety braking zone to stop accident happening all the present problems in the west world are created by the finacial system in use at the moment.
    The time as come for the majority of the population to ask for the control of our live back and not to be ask to pay day in and day out to keep a system which as run the course of is life.
    John

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  • 101. At 3:21pm on 23 Nov 2010, BluesBerry wrote:

    Suddenly everything is in play, except of course the Chinese offer to provide assistance to the EU. Since Ireland was well-financed to June, 2011, China had committed to buy any and all bonds issued by Ireland thereafter. There was no need for a bailout. This would have left Irish sovereignty, standing strong and proud.
    What have the Irish given away?
    Better question: Why were they forced to give it away?
    Europe has no cause for any more bailouts. The Chinese Premier committed to buy the bonds of any and all STUPID PIIGs (including Spain, Portigal, Greece, even the UK) in order to assist these countries recover from the nefarious financial instruments with were let loose by American banks "too big to fail". e.g. bundled derivatives, CDOs, bets against sovereign debt.
    Ireland should feel stung, bruised, humiliated. Ireland did not want and did not need a bailout. Yet Irish Finance Minister, Brian Lenihan, in the face of all this turmoil bravely states: The 7 December budget: "will be our own budget, nobody else's budget", referring to the EU and the IMF.
    Speculation lies ahead; the bail-out won't be finalised by the end of the month.
    Who runs Ireland?"
    Who was behind this push to enforce a bailout?
    Has Ireland caved? Will she cave? Can Ireland change its mind?
    No STUPID PIIGS NEEDS A BAILOUT; so, something else is going on here. Something rotten is happening, and it's called prejudice and bias against Chinese pro-offered assistance.
    Why?
    Because the United States of America does not want China to get a toe-hold in Europe, and I suspect neither does the EU. So for the sake of all this bitterness among the EU, UK and US, let all the people eat cake!
    Incidentally, China can back up her offer. China has 2.5 TRILLION IN RESERVES TO INVEST. It has offered to buy EU bonds; it wants to strengthen the Euro vs the American dollar.

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  • 102. At 3:43pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #100 john

    The present defense is devaluation for both Dollar and Euro to increase exports-- and the Euro may win this race if the 600 Billion dollars from Bernanke are not enough to do the job.

    Without the ´system´ many would have problems justifying their existence and the accompanying oppression -- they call freedom !

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  • 103. At 3:55pm on 23 Nov 2010, Tuga Opinon wrote:

    For a moment let’s step back and recap on what has happened till date.

    1. Greece - Creative Accounting finally caught up with the Greek government. At first the Greek national government did not want to admit the true extent of their deficit. It was closer to 13% but they kept insisting it was 9%. Today when the third tranche of the bail out was about to be released they admit that the there was an error in accounting for the public debt. So when we fist started discussing about the Greek bail out they just wanted Euro 46 billion but two months into the negotiations they ended signing up to Euro 143 billion. The question that begs to be asked is "is this enough and can the Greek service their debt commitments in March 2011?". In my opinion the numbers don’t add up and the bail out has just bought the Greek government time to come up with a re-structuring strategy.

    2. Ireland - The Irish who felt they did not need a bail out. I believe they forget one key fact. "They are part of the Euro Monetary Union". Unlike Mr. Ben Bernanke, Mr. Brian Lenihan (Irish Finance Minister) and the Irish Central Bank long lost their freedom and control to print money….. The reason why the Irish went ahead and imposed austerity measures on themselves was to insure a smooth bail out. It was clear that the Irish banks never had the liquidity and were finding it difficult to borrow from the open market. If we poked a bit into the monthly ECB bulletins you could see that Irish banks were the largest recipients of ECB’s liquidity easing scheme. Three months ago the ECB published stress test on major European banks… “What was the outcome of the stress tests on the Irish banks?”…. the answer is simple…. It was a glowing recommendation that the banking sector was healthy. How come now we have a problem? The problem always existed and the Euro Zone needed time to come up with a middle way to ease the economic situation. Unlike the Greeks the Irish will sincerely follow the austerity measures and come out of this mess as a better economy eventually but in the short – terms their bails out is going to kick start a contagion that cannot be stopped. I have one question for the Irish. Why do you listen to the US Corporate lobby and avoid increasing corporate taxes. It’s at 12% you might as well increase it to 19%. The US multinationals have taken advantage of low tax rates for years… don’t you think it is time they pitched in!!!!! Even if it is increased to 19% it is still the lowest rate in the whole of the Eurozone. Well if the Irish wish to be sovereign and independent they need to set an example at home before negotiating bail-outs with Brussels.

    3. Portugal - My home and the best place to live. We seem to get ourselves in trouble every 10 years or so. The last time the IMF landed at Lisbon airport in the 1980’s it left a lot of bad taste in our mouths. However, this time around a majority of Portuguese would rather prefer a bail-out. If are tracking development sin Portugal carefully you will notice two things. 1. The 2011 Portuguese budget has a Euro 368 million hole that needs to be plugged. This hole was the price that the minority government lead by Prime Minister Jose Socrates had to pay for indirect support from the second largest political party to ensure that the budget is voted through. 2. The Portuguese government needs to raise Euro 15 billion to fund its next year’s budget in the First Quarter of 2011. Good Luck, if they can raise this money from the capital markets at anything below 7%. Moreover there is anger and resentment at the fact that the Portuguese government contributed around Euro 1 billion to the Greek bail-out fund. Although the Greeks are paying the Portuguese around 5% to 5.5% the Portuguese government is now paying for the same around 7%. This is the reason why Portugal will eventually go for a bail out… since it is facing short term liquidity issues. Just like Northern Rock Bank, They both had great assets but did not have short-term liquidity. It is in Portugal’s interest to be bailed out and this is the sentiment most of the people in government and opposition secretly share. What will this do.. This will annihilate Spanish Banks who have the majority of exposure to Portuguese Debt. Brilliant isn’t it Portugal just exported its problems to its neighbour who is equally in trouble.

    4. Spain – Our good old big brother. Well they had years to reform their labour market and the economy but they kept avoiding the subject and they continue to till today. Although Spain has approved an austerity budget with a few change sin laws, major reforms are yet to enacted in 2011. Mr. José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, the Prime Minister of Spain does not have the support of his coalition partners to pass the necessary laws. He barely squeezed the 2011 budget with support from a Basque party in exchange for concessions. If someone was to tell me that Spain and Euro Zone is out of the woods…. Wrong again!!! If these laws are not enacted by mid next year the austerity budget is a toothless paper tiger. So with the its small brother in trouble and looking for handouts from the EU / IMF, and the Spanish banks in a vulnerable position with massive exposures to Portuguese debt in addition to 20% Unemployment and a doomed Real Estate sector in Spain. I wish every optimist the best of luck in believing what the Spanish Finance Minister is saying. I recommend you do you own reached and you will see that the numbers wont match up.

    5. Italy – All I am going to say is that the French have done a good job of keeping a lid on things and thanks to our good old Mr. Silvio Berlusconi media empire no news have been leaking out to the markets. Well eventually it will once the dust settles on Portugal and Spain everyone’s attention will be on Italy. By then I guess good old Silvio will be enjoying a good old fashioned orgy at his mansion. Italy is in debt close to Euro 600 million and it can be even more. Eventually the truth will come out. What I fear for the Italians is that there won’t be enough to bail them out. I am sure the Frneh banks will be willing to take a fair hair cut on their Italian bond holdings. Let’s not forget Silvio may not last his entire term in office if Mr. Fini walks out on him or bring in a motion of no confidence. All in all not so good news for the Euro Zone.

    Now… if you guys thought it was all going to get over with Italy… Well you are all wrong…. How about our Eastern European neighbours.. Hungry for example hasn’t been able to meet the IMF goals, Poland and Czech Republic are in massive deficits and their currencies have been extremely volatile. Eventually they will need to service their debts and any bail out there would mean Germany bailing out their banks once again….

    So in summary here is what I have to say based on facts:

    Once we are done with Ireland early next year we will see the Portuguese getting a bail out. The moment that is over you will see Greece coming out with a proposal to restructure their debt. These are the two trigger points that will nail Spain and Italy. I believe its simple laws of nature. For years they did not want to impose discipline…… now it is going to be imposed on them one way or the other. I am not advocating a dooms day scenario for the European Monetary Union but depending on the outcome of the future with regards to the Portuguese bailout and Greek debt restructuring the Euro’s survival will be at stake. There is a great risk then there was 6 months ago. If Spain and Italy can withstand on it’s own the Portuguese bail out and Greeks debt restructuring then we can see a future for the Euro. Let’s not think of what will happen otherwise……… and hope for the best.

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  • 104. At 3:58pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #101 Bluesberry

    Very interesting !

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  • 105. At 4:27pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #103 Tuga Opinion

    ---also very interesting !

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  • 106. At 4:40pm on 23 Nov 2010, one step beyond wrote:

    Re post 91, QOT,
    yes I did mean to write 'increase' corporation tax, thanks for spotting it

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  • 107. At 5:02pm on 23 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #75 - powermeerkat

    Oh WHAT????

    Watch my lips.

    There is NO STATUTORY MINIMUM WAGE IN GERMANY

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  • 108. At 5:15pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #107 Threnodio

    --- Is that is your only problem ?

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  • 109. At 5:18pm on 23 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #92 - margaret howard

    Be so kid as to give me letter and verse of your source because it is FACTUALLY INCORRECT.

    If you don't believe me, don't mess around with third party sources. Go straight to the horses mouth.

    "There is no such thing as a cross-sector statutory minimum wage in German".

    Paragraph 1, Sentence 1, Line 1.

    http://www.destatis.de/jetspeed/portal/cms/Sites/destatis/Internet/EN/Content/Statistics/VerdiensteArbeitskosten/MinimumWages/AktuellD,templateId=renderPrint.psml

    An apology, this time, is in order.

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  • 110. At 5:26pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Good news for the Brits-- the marriage day is a public holiday .

    NO FEUDALISM !

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  • 111. At 5:29pm on 23 Nov 2010, DurstigerMann wrote:

    @11 just_another_observer

    "Indeed, the role of Germany throughout has been disastrous. Owing to a government with a primitive ideology remarkably similar to that of British Tories (and now LibDems), Germany is rapidly becoming the major problem for the Euro zone. Yes, Germans are paying a lot for the privilege of being in this zone, but guess which Germans those are? Yes, ordinary people, not the bankers and insurance lot, nor the big pharmaceuticals companies (whose role in politics is anything but honest). By keeping wages artificially and damagingly low, Germany keeps up its export business, just like China. Both were scolded at Seoul, for the same very good reasons. It is high time that the so-called 'Neo-Liberal' ideology of the totally 'free' market is shown up for what it is - a pack of lies, hiding the greed of the few. Don't believe it? Think this is just left-wing ranting? Think again - and try doing just a little research. Check out Heiner Flassbeck, for example. And ask yourselves how many 'experts' were right when they predicted the current and recent economic crisis!"

    The wages in Germany are one coin of the medal.
    There are even "experts" raising their voices in order to have Germany import workers on a large scale in order to "fight the demographic change" and ensure that there are enough people to keep the industry going.
    Of course, the only thing those lobbyists want is to ensure that wages stay low. Anyone with a hunch in economics knows that there cannot be a shortage of qualified workers while wages are that low. They are the single most important indicator on the job market.
    During a shortage, wages in the respective field would go up drastically.


    There is another side however, that is sadly often neglected by critics of the German export industries role in Europe:
    Product quality.

    To give you just one easy example (I know of many more):
    I have heard from multiple people who bought a "Schaub-Lorenz" dish-washer that their machine broke after just a short while of use and that it doesn`t clean the dishes well. They were astonished when I told them that the brand name Schaub-Lorenz was bought by an Italian manufacturer and the machines are 100% italian craft. Due to the German name, they expected good quality and bought the machines.


    Be fooled once, shame on you.
    Be fooled twice, shame on me.

    That`s why German products sell well all around the world.
    Low wages in Germany are often but an instrument to keep revenues higher.


    A third factors which is often overlooked is, that Germany`s economy had serious problems 10-15 years ago.
    Sadly, the recovery from this was solely based on export, a strong point of the German economy for the most part of the last 150 years.
    But statistics and figures indicate a strenghtening domestic market in Germany and rising wages now after the strong comeback. It will be interesting to see whether this development will continue or not.

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  • 112. At 5:32pm on 23 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #108 - quietoaktree

    If you mean do I have a problem with people using factually inaccurate data to justify unjustifiable positions, you are damned right I do.

    Is my only problem? No way.

    I live in constant fear that, somewhere out there, there is a noisy oak tree.

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  • 113. At 5:35pm on 23 Nov 2010, notus wrote:

    #44 - threnodio_II

    "If Germany does not benefit directly it is because they are locked into Euro land. It was their choice."

    No, it wasn't. Prior to reunification French president Mr. F. Mitterrand demanded from chancellor H. Kohl that the Euro be introduced at a set date, i.e. 1999 resp. 2002 before he agreed to sign the "peace treaty". Kohl had some "sleepless nights" over it knowing that this was too early, but eventually accepted. And the German population? In their majority never have liked the Euro.

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  • 114. At 5:38pm on 23 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #94. At 12:59pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree and #95

    It's fairly pointless discussing the law of UK as it was and how it's evolved thanks to the membership with the EU as you can't help yourself.

    "Pension contributions are not lost.

    ´His country will inform him´ --that he is in exile ???"

    To all effects that is what happens, an EU citizen will not lose pension rights but unless he/she is rich or of pensionable age you are in effect exiled if you cannot survive in your home country by your own means or those of your family. To regain your Social rights in your home country you have to follow the course of any other migrant.

    "Commonwealth citizens do NOT have special special passport and residency rights in the UK-- they have DIFFERENT rights of residency --depending on the QUALITY of their British passport !

    ONLY those who have residency (right of return?) rights in the UK --have EU rights !

    No wonder #84 uses corkscrew language and logic in some obscure defense of Britain!"

    Enrol yourself on an English course, the law as to residency and passport rights has evolved over the years, I said that in #93, what was not clear in that, are you an absolute fool? Many of the changes were as a result of EU directives and some weren't but that is fact, verify it yourself if you can read.

    #96, that could be correct if they are the best, but then the haut cuising of Germany makes an English motorway cafe of the 60's seem edible if my experience was anything to go by. Breakfasts were great with the bread and cold meat, after that the rest was awful unless you eat in Turkish or Argentine/Balkan restos.

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  • 115. At 5:49pm on 23 Nov 2010, Mathiasen wrote:

    I am surprised that Durstiger Mann didn't comment on the matter minimum wages in Germany, which has been discussed here.

    Actually, there are minimum wages in Germany. However, they don't apply for the entire Federal Republic and every wage earner. I think BBC will allow me to tell that minimum wages can be found under the word "Mindestlohn" so that everybody can google it.

    If I recall it correctly, minimum wages can be a result of a law. For instance Northwest Radio has an article about minimum wages for the entire Federal Republic in the area of care. The payment is 7,50 Euros, and the government of Germany has approved this.
    If you want to know about the legislation: Use google.

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  • 116. At 5:54pm on 23 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #98. At 2:05pm on 23 Nov 2010, ghostofsichuan

    Regulate, regulate, regulate even more and you have terminal stagnation, communism has proved that so many times, eh!

    #99. At 2:36pm on 23 Nov 2010, Richard35

    Hooray, at last somebody who understands, these bail-outs are just buying time, in this case because the mandarins are scared their 'great project' is in terminal decline. Sorry, because the mandarins KNOW their 'great project' is in terminal decline. Any manager with any form of responsibility and honesty would have removed the dissimilar economies from the Euro experiment, but no, the Euro is considered to be above logic.

    #103. At 3:55pm on 23 Nov 2010, Tuga Opinon

    That was a very well thought out and structured analysis, and very scary as I suspect you are spot on, the only Euro member you omitted was France. I hear the French media is being gagged these days and they joke about the old WWII radio broadcasts, Allo, Allo, this is England, only now it is Allo, Allo, this is Brussels (French speaking programs), as that is where they hear what Sarko is up to next (Journalists who expose him get fired).

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  • 117. At 5:57pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #114 Buzet 23

    -- what social rights !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    and explain EXILE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I am still only trying to understand your #84 --which you appear to have difficulty explaining.

    ---I have no ulterior motives ! (as yet)

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  • 118. At 6:00pm on 23 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #114

    An important typo

    I meant to say "To all effects that is what happens, an EU citizen will not lose pension rights but unless he/she is rich or NOT of pensionable age you are in effect exiled if you cannot survive in your home country by your own means or those of your family." as the NOT was omitted!

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  • 119. At 6:02pm on 23 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #115. At 5:49pm on 23 Nov 2010, Mathiasen

    Threnodio has already said that, it depends totally on the sector and whatever law has been enacted over the last few years, as the picture of minimum wage has changed a few times in Germany recently due to court cases.

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  • 120. At 6:21pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #114 Buzet 23

    Now you are blaming the EU for the destruction of the Commonwealth idea that all Commonwealth citizens have a right to go to Britain ?

    The British cries of STOP came BEFORE the EU, when the West Indians called your bluff !

    Don´t blame the EU for your Racism and big mouth !

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  • 121. At 6:27pm on 23 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 122. At 6:33pm on 23 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "58. At 9:43pm on 22 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
    Oh yeah, as to the similarity to the e-mail scams, with them you send money (cooperate) on the thought that you will get money back, but the saps never do as the scammers are brighter, thus it's a scam. Your ideological cooperation thought makes no allowance for that at all."

    I am no nigerian and I have never send scam letters. What is your point? We do not have paté in our brains do we. It's quite different when Pound and Dollar speculate against Euro. No nigerians are, hahhah, involved.

    Now it seems that Euro is the winner. Good. That means massive losses for some bankers who played against Euro. Very very good.

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  • 123. At 6:34pm on 23 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #117. At 5:57pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree

    Sorry I should not have said learn English, as that is beyond your ken just as understanding EU directives and law most certainly is. For people like you it is impossible to explain reality, you have to experience it, then you will winge and complain and say you didn't know. So change your job for one in a far flung country, make a mess of it (not difficult) and then try to return. We'll speak again about this in a few years, maybe (if you survive).

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  • 124. At 6:44pm on 23 Nov 2010, Malkava wrote:

    #100 john

    I certainly have no qualms about Europe doing whatever it takes to save their currency and become competitive. As you say, it is natural for nations to be self-serving.

    My concern is that the EU is still attempting to do its best to remain a collective of nations operating under one currency. Particularly without a unifying standard of operation in regards to its finances, government structure, social programs, foreign policy, etc.

    From a purely outsider perspective, I just cannot imagine such an institution working, regardless of whatever measures they attempt to enforce. The only way I can think of it possibly functioning as a 'EU super-state' would require further integration - which, forgive my assumption, will not take place. Europe simply has too much history, which in my opinion is both a blessing and a curse.

    On one hand, by relinquishing sovereignty and uniting under one union in all aspects, it could have the potential of creating a EU state which could very well rival the U.S or China. However, that would mean the end of Europe's cherished individual history and culture - which I have seen is quite fiercely protected and will not be given up easily (Ireland's reaction to the bailout springs to mind).

    I can understand the necessity of a united Europe, given that individual European countries do not have the presence and power to project their economic or political interests on a global scale. However, I just do not foresee the present structure of the EU as long-lasting.

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  • 125. At 6:48pm on 23 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    I somewhat surprised that my post #121 has been removed despite being milder than #120. At 6:21pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree.

    MODS, just what the heck is going on here when you permit verbal diarrhoea and ban a non insulting response.

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  • 126. At 6:59pm on 23 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #122. At 6:33pm on 23 Nov 2010, Pate

    Yet another one, ok Pate, you can't understand the correlation between a 'cooperate with everyone and you'll make money' and a 'Nigerian' email scam whereby you cooperate with them, they promise you a fortune, and you lose all your money. Ok, just carry on, cooperate and wait for your riches. Or in your case watch your countries leaders make a fortune while you lose anything you have.

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  • 127. At 6:59pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Buzet 23

    -- the plot thickens !

    --I am STILL trying to clarify and understand your #84 !!!!

    ---so don´t go off on diversionary tangents !

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  • 128. At 7:04pm on 23 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    Minimum wages are only concern when bulk products are made. For example basic food or other low cost products. Chinese are easily beatable with high costly products. They have very long long road to Harley Davidsons, Dom Pérignon, good cheeses, Oasis of the Seas, Audis, top airplanes and Apple. And when they are there we are much way longer, we western innovative people. So let's not panic. In the future we have more and more clients, asians ti buy Jags.

    Only people we don't need are the bankers who speculate against each others and destroy whole world's economy. Speculating against irish banks for example. They are the real enemies of the humankind. Pound is with them.

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  • 129. At 7:05pm on 23 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    at 44 Threnodio states emphatically:
    "Germany does not have a minimum wage."

    at 54 the word STATUTORY makes its first appearance:
    "Because THERE IS NO STATUTORY MINIMUM WAGE IN GERMANY. How many more times, for crying out loud."

    at 107 ditto
    "There is NO STATUTORY MINIMUM WAGE IN GERMANY"

    And finally at 109 'CROSS SECTOR' is suddenly added to the mix.
    He continues:
    "If you don't believe me, don't mess around with third party sources. Go straight to the horses mouth."There is no such thing as a cross-sector statutory minimum wage in German"

    Well, I went straight to the horses mouth Paragraph 1 sentence 1 Line 1 and this is what it said:
    "There is no such thing as a cross-sector statutory minimum wage in Germany.(note the words 'cross sector')."
    However in SENTENCE 2 LINES 2&3 it says:
    "However, binding minimum wages are in place in several branches and occupations.As of September 1st 2010, minimum wages were in place for four groups of construction ccupations (construction industry proper, painting and varnishing trade, erection of roof coverings and frames and electrician trade), waste management, special mining activities in hard coal mines, industrial and commercial cleaning and long-term care activities in Germany.
    Branch-specific minimum wages between Euro 6.50 and Euro 12.95 per hour
    As of September 1st 2010, the minimum wages in Germany varied between EUR 6.50 per hour (commercial cleaning in the new Länder an Berlin) and EUR 12.95 (construction in the former territory of the Federal Republic).

    Add to this Mathiason at 119: "Actually, there are minimum wages in Germany" and I will agree with you when you say:
    "An apology, this time, is in order."
    I'm waiting!

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  • 130. At 7:14pm on 23 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #127. At 6:59pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree

    You cannot understand until you want to both read and listen so I'm not wasting my time any more, change your job and try and find a tea urn to push in a far place.

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  • 131. At 7:22pm on 23 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 132. At 7:25pm on 23 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "126. At 6:59pm on 23 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
    ... Ok, just carry on, cooperate and wait for your riches."

    My money comes from borderless no toll Europe. Only troblemakers are US bankers who spoiled the business for us all. And the against Euro speculative bankers whom try to steal the rest.

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  • 133. At 8:01pm on 23 Nov 2010, notus wrote:

    # 114 - buzet23

    it is "haute cuisine", please

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  • 134. At 8:23pm on 23 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #129 - margaret howard

    Well you read it for yourself and now you seem to want to turn it all round. Yes there are negotiated wage agreements in different sectors arrived at through collective bargaining and having the force of law.

    Not only are these rates different for different industries but, if you had read the whole text, they vary from Land to Land as well. There are great swathes of the German economy where no such agreements exist. In other words, the very best the figures you quoted could be are a mean average of the hourly rates paid only in industries where such agreements have been reached so at best unreliable and almost certainly spurious.

    So Margaret, when the government of Germany tells me categorically on the first page of the relevant web site that German has statutory minimum wage, I am far more inclined to believe them than you. I note that you did not respond to my request to tell me the source of your spurious data.

    We you get no apology from me and the matter is now closed - unless of course you name your source.

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  • 135. At 8:24pm on 23 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #133. At 8:01pm on 23 Nov 2010, happybaby

    You are of course quite right, my mistake, as I was steaming about some posters as if over a bain marie.

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  • 136. At 8:25pm on 23 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #129

    Whilst honestly taking MH's & Mathiasen's word I'm still with Threnodio on this one.

    From reading the same 'horses mouth' etc. it would seem there is NO staturoty minimum wage in Germany.
    What there are is minimum wage standards set at differing levels across various types of employment.

    It also seems with the wide variation within Germany's occupations and as there is not a National 'minimum wage' it makes MH's original 'observation' request at #32 based on #11 impossible to fulfill with any accuracy of Minimum Wage calculation-comparison.

    I have no axe to grind on this: I think You were all arguing at cross-purposes without reflecting adequately on each other's points (inc. Mathiasen, who perhaps from personal knowledge should have known there was no National standard 'minimum' in Germany).

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  • 137. At 8:32pm on 23 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #63. At 10:28pm on 22 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
    #56 CBW
    "Will you stop wasting my time !
    NO ONE has yet distanced themselves from Mr. Hewitt´s statement !
    An explanation of what is clearly written -- and what many as yourself preach, is only the Brits on this blog in prayer !"


    There is no 'explanation'! It is an article written by the BBC Editor for European Affairs. We the public, the readers are invited to comment upon it.

    So far as I can tell every single person has commented save Yourself! Apparently You require others to explain it for You in order for You to come to an understanding of it that will enable You to make a worthwhile comment.

    My advice: In view of Your well known predicament, DON'T HOLD YOUR BREATH waiting for the assistance as hell freezing over would appear to be a long way off.

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  • 138. At 8:40pm on 23 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #110. At 5:26pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
    "Good news for the Brits-- the marriage day is a public holiday .
    NO FEUDALISM !"

    Yes, indeed a nice day off for most UK Citizens: I'm sure they will appreciate it.

    As for 'feudalism' - - don't be envious - - apply for UK Citizenship - - if Your application is successful & in time You too could take 24 hours out & enjoy a National celebration.

    Must be my generosity night: Second piece of advice for You - - don't mention 'serfdom' down the pub - - as surfing the local tarmacadam road nose-first is never a good way to finish an evening out!

    Am I helpful, or what!?

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  • 139. At 8:42pm on 23 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    sorry, those minimum ones caught my eye. what am I doing here? hide the nice ones asap and don't show to Russians :o)))))) 10 times difference with Britain and France the "per month" ones.
    au wow! with consumer goods priced the same or higher in Russia, and pension and medical, the social say expenses, successfully kicked over to own population's concern, by the government.
    where is cool-brush! for that matter :o)))))))
    you continue here discussing (whatever it is :o), I will go meanwhile cry a bit by his side :o))))))))))))))0 for lack of better ideas

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  • 140. At 9:07pm on 23 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    WebAlice

    Re #139

    Oh, don't cry!

    The Social Benefits are fabulous in mainland EU & though less are adequate in the British Isles.
    Thing to remember is that those 'benefits' in several of the EU nations haven't been paid for by employment, productivity or taxation for a fair few years now (in the case of France not for some 30 years).

    To illustrate this serious flaw in the overall scheme of things:

    24 of 27 EU States have announced 'Cuts' in Public Spending, but whilst practically every nation is going through these difficult choices the EU's Parliament demanded an INCREASE in its Budget of 5.9% for the year ahead and guarantees of more increases after that.

    You see, WebAlice, EUropeans from their alleged Political 'leadership' to National Government have been dishonest with themselves and their Citizens.
    In the case of the Nations, as always, reality does come knocking and troubled times see National interests put before individual Citizens' concerns.

    And, as always, the utterly corrupt EU-Brussels entity which has absolutely no interest in nation or citizen except as a means to authority, power and wealth has gone blithely on totally unaware there was even an issue about its Citizens going without portions of 'benefits' whilst it took more of the smaller pie than ever before.

    EU democracy in action: Don't You just love it!?

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  • 141. At 9:21pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    OK Serfs! -

    -A royal marriage day off and declared by Her Majesties Government at that ( with her Majesties permission ?) -- is a dirty Communist plot to disgrace MODERN Britain.

    So now for the apologies !

    -- what was that about British Fair Play ?

    -- and Sovereignty for a Free nation ?

    ---and QOT knows NOTHING about Britain ?????

    --- Boy, am I going to have fun !

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  • 142. At 9:24pm on 23 Nov 2010, Mathiasen wrote:

    #136. At 8:25pm on 23 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote
    “inc. Mathiasen, who perhaps from personal knowledge should have known there was no National standard 'minimum' in Germany.”

    This reminds me of the question: Are you still beating your wife?

    1) I know there is no National standard 'minimum' in Germany.
    2) I wrote “minimum wages in Germany [] don't apply for the entire Federal Republic and every wage earner”, which is another way to say: there is no National standard 'minimum' in Germany.
    3) National standard 'minimum' in Germany is the goal of the opposition in Bundestag, not least the SPD.
    4) Everybody can get info on this through google. If you cannot read German, you can get translation help from google.

    Should we continue to the next topic?

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  • 143. At 9:34pm on 23 Nov 2010, MaudDib wrote:

    Yo Alice

    A little diddy you should grabatize to help you when you get depressed. It comes from the "Sound of Music" movie with the very talented American actress Julie Andrews. (We Americans can grabatize too). Here goes.....

    Doe, a buck, a euro/yuan
    Ray, a drop of golden sun
    Me, a name I call myself
    Far, a long, long way to run
    Sew, a needle pulling thread
    La, a note to follow Sew
    Tea, a drink with jam and bread
    That will bring us back to Do (in your case that would be ruble)
    :0)

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  • 144. At 9:55pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    I have just been Knighted for 50 Acorns !

    --and service to my forest!

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  • 145. At 9:59pm on 23 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 146. At 10:03pm on 23 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 147. At 10:30pm on 23 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #146 - cool_brush_work

    And there was I still believing a trannie was a portable radio.

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  • 148. At 10:36pm on 23 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    MODS

    HELLO!

    Re my #145 & #146

    Are You MODS quite sure You are considering in more detail the right one!?

    I mean I'm delighted #146 got through, but cannot for the life of me fathom if #146 did, what on earth was wrong with #145!??????????????

    Unless You really don't get any of the inferences of #146 - - in which case 'sheltered life' is hardly adequate to cover Your embarrassment!!

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  • 149. At 10:38pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Threnodio

    After I defended your rights --you are not getting my original contributions removed are you ?

    --well you promised you would -- THANKS !

    -for a doublecross.

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  • 150. At 10:48pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 151. At 10:57pm on 23 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    "You see, WebAlice, ....

    EU democracy in action: Don't You just love it!?"


    cool-brushie, :o)))). ?? :o))))))))))
    I am a material girl :o)))))))))) may be better a Mars bar.
    may be you got a little bit dis-trained in consoling Russians :o)))))))

    Joking. So, you are saying, social support in Europe isn't and can be - wasn't for a time (and longer) backed-up by profits, so nothing to be jealous about.
    Well. I suppose one can take away money from you now, but can't take away your years, of the past, lived normally. In this sense European population has won.

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  • 152. At 11:22pm on 23 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    at 44 Threnodio
    "GERMANY DOES NOT HAVE A MINIMUM WAGE."
    129
    Because THERE IS NO STATUTORY MINIMUM WAGE IN GERMANY. How many more times, for crying out loud."

    134 threnodio
    "So Margaret, when the government of Germany tells me categorically on the first page of the relevant web site that German has statutory minimum wage, I am far more inclined to believe them than you.
    "We (sic) you get no apology from me and the matter is now closed "

    I bet it is!!!! You couln't make it up.

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  • 153. At 11:23pm on 23 Nov 2010, MaudDib wrote:

    CBW

    I have noticed that there are those associated with this blog whose names begin with a "M" who have trouble following a train of thought. I ain't taking bout Marcus or Miss M either. Irony is out of the question.

    It appears to me that the home team is condemned to grin and bear it, whereas if you are the visitor you can say what you want as long as it applies to the home team. Betcha you'd like Marcus back just to get a little relief...... That's kinda spooky.

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  • 154. At 11:24pm on 23 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Surely a little bit of internal wealth re-distribution :o))))))), given 50? 44? 60? (varies around) times (official) difference between the salaries (official) of Russians - would have helped - the majority - regarding the "minimum wages". I think nobody else in the world sports such a difference, normal countries are happy with 10 or 20 times the difference.
    It wouldn't cut the gap between "1/10" Russia and "10/10" say France - in minimum wages, but the numebrs would look more relatively normal I dare say :o))))))))

    Interestingly, I don't know our minimum wage numbers, haven't seen here the very word combination published :o)) I suppose it exists, somewhere deep in unknown laws, but it's not overly advertised. Only "average salary", per region, per country, per city, etc. As we say, "general temperature across the hospital" :o)))))), incl those in the morgue and those with the fever. But the hospital overall is alright :o))))))

    I think when you un-wisely throw in one such an additional parameter, people figure out such a parameter exists, and start comparing :o)))

    Instead, we've got State Duma discussing business' leaders :o))))))) suggestion this week, a formal offer from a "business community " :o))))), an application for a new law: namely, to expand the existing 40 hrs' working week to 60 hours. Honest. Not a joke.

    And this is in the country who set 8 hrs work day in 1917 - on the third day after October revolution, as the matter of prime priority.
    All we have won on social front, and very expensively - through a revolution - we threw overboard out away 20 yrs ago like total idiots, and no one even gave a shout, as all thought wonders of capitalism will bring in the same and 10-fold so. Only they didn't. We here live in about Al Capone times, may be in 90 years our capitalism will improve :o)))))) like yours did in time - if only someone will live here to that happy day :o)))))

    I am slightly afraid Russia doesn't have these 90 years for catching up.
    The most optimistic forecasts here, of analysts, answering the question "How long more do you think we will hold without changing any thing" is "10 years safely".
    At that, they all add that any other country "managing" itself as we do would have kicked the bucket long time ago :o)))))))) - it's simply the general abundance of things around here allows Russians to hold on in spite of what their rulers do (don't). In terms of laws and practices of their applications, conditions for business, importing nuclear junk from the whole world to dump in Siberia, poisoning areas, cutting France size areas of forest and other extravagances allowed here.

    Until there are muchrooms in the forest :o)))) - but honest! berries, water in the wells :o))))) cut-wood for the stoves, population skills in making glass jars with preserves for the winter ahead and doing kitchen-gardening across, and general endurance levels - we will hold on in spite of whatever is done/un-done re our structures, organisation and management.

    This general richness is a blessing and a curse simultaneously, as it takes Russians very long to start acutely feeling a demand for change.
    And surely while the tops can make personal zillions selling natural reserves - they won't scratch their heads re other options to manage - what for?

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  • 155. At 11:29pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Mods ???

    Now nobody can understand my #150

    --Ok -I´ll shut up, promise !

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  • 156. At 11:32pm on 23 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    149 QOT writes:
    threnodio

    "After I defended your rights --you are not getting my original contributions removed are you ?"

    I don't think he would do that - he twists facts enough without resorting to doublecross!

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  • 157. At 11:33pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 158. At 11:39pm on 23 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Thank you, MaudDib,
    I know the film, (a nice dress there as well, wide skirt ;o) of that actress singing), and I know the tune. Don't understand why "doe" though does it also mean some money? dole? what's a doe but that first note?
    (in Rus it sounds doh-reh-me-fah-sol'-lya-see-doh

    -doh-see-fah-sol'-fah-mee-reh-doooh :o)

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  • 159. At 11:46pm on 23 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 160. At 11:52pm on 23 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    The other option is we find a volunteer in our rows :o)) and send him/her on a mission to that infamous restaurant in France he visited (if anyone remembers the year? 20th century for sure :o) - there is a chance it is still owned by the same people, who keep a company history file eh may be - where surely there will be found that Mark's complaint I don't even doubt! suppose he wrote nil on site but when returning home he surely wrote them all he thinks about them, (he is very vocal ;o) and so we again get the surname from that old paper.
    Anyone who did fam history research knows that much more far away people's names are effectively found and via far more extravagant solutions.

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  • 161. At 11:56pm on 23 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    In spite of the EU CAP

    http://www.dardni.gov.uk/index/fisheries-farming-and-food/enforcement-awb/enforcement-minimum-wage-rates-for-agricultural-workers-for-2010-2011.htm

    -- looks like peanuts !

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  • 162. At 00:18am on 24 Nov 2010, MaudDib wrote:

    Alice

    Dough (as opposed to doe) would be the way to spell the slang term used to refer to money, moolah, bacon, bread, skin, simoleon and the list goes on. We pronounce dough and doe the same. Don't know about the Brits. They screw everything up. i.e. inventory, aluminum, garage, raise and so on and so forth. What the hell is a left-tennant anyway?

    My favorite slang for money is the term used for the Canadian dollar coin, "loonie"

    Technically we would describe the scale mentioned in the previous post as do, re, me, fa, so, la, te, do.

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  • 163. At 01:04am on 24 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #160 WIA

    Marcus could be on holiday-- we will know after Thanksgiving day. (I guess)

    His last BBC posting was on 8th November-- however in one posting he suggested the possibility of growing wings and flying off.

    If he was European a month to 6 weeks holiday would be normal.

    Withdrawal symptoms are to be expected.

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  • 164. At 07:55am on 24 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #163. At 01:04am on 24 Nov 2010, quietoaktree

    It doesn't take a lot of imagination to suspect what's happened to MAII, after all he's much like someone I know here who was a Nuclear Physicist, very bright, but slightly addled these days. For some months my friend has been saying he's waiting for aliens to come down and pick him up in a years time. Maybe the aliens went for MAII first after his various posts caught their attention. What say ye OAT and all the rest who believe so much in fantasy like MAII does.

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  • 165. At 08:03am on 24 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #161

    Quietoaktree;

    Interesting figures. Now tell us what the minimum wage is for farm workers in Germany....

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  • 166. At 09:30am on 24 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    quietoaktree wrote in reply to my question whether anybody in Europe was concerned about N. Korean artilery firing at S. Korean civilian dwellings.
    [A provocation which might yet result in a major military conflict].



    #80 Poweremeerkat

    No !

    Only yesterdays latest land grab news from Israel.




    PM: Oh, do you own any land in Gaza which Israel withdrew from?

    Or in Jerusalem from which it won't?

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  • 167. At 09:36am on 24 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    In #87 Freeman remarked:

    "Nothing will shut up the whingers with the possible exception of the annihilation of all life on earth... which obviously would be the fault of the British ...and perhaps the USA."



    I hope you don't doubt that tsumami off Sumatra, floods in Burma and earthquakes in China and Chile were caused by CIA using Pentagon's top secret tectonic weapons?

    And that AIDS virus has been concocted at Ft. Detrick to depopulate sub-Saharan Africa to make that enviable part of the world ready for white settlement?

    I only ask because there are some naive souls who still believe those were natural diasters.

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  • 168. At 09:40am on 24 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #103 tugaopinion: " So when we fist started discussing about the Greek bail out they just wanted Euro 46 billion but two months into the negotiations they ended signing up to Euro 143 billion. The question that begs to be asked is "is this enough and can the Greek service their debt commitments in March 2011?".





    Don't worry 'bout that. Don't worry even about Portugal.

    Worry about Spain, for economists are saying now that bailing out that country would cost AT LEAST half a TRILLION euro which is more than EU has available in its emergency rescue fund.

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  • 169. At 09:49am on 24 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "China has 2.5 TRILLION IN RESERVES TO INVEST. It has offered to buy EU bonds; it wants to strengthen the Euro vs the American dollar."







    Not if it wants to address growing social unrests in Chinese huge impoverished rural areas and build those dozens of nuclear plants it talks about to stop incredible air and soil pollution resulting from deadly emissions oozing out of thousands of its coal/oil burning power plants' smokestacks.

    On top of which PRC will soon have to significantly increase an exchange rate of its yuan, if it wants to avoid protectionist tarrifs imposed on goods it dumps - by both USA and EU.

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  • 170. At 10:02am on 24 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 171. At 11:33am on 24 Nov 2010, DurstigerMann wrote:

    @115 Mathiasen

    "I am surprised that Durstiger Mann didn't comment on the matter minimum wages in Germany, which has been discussed here."

    Because I think that minimum wages are pointless. As a student, I would not work for 7,50 EUR an hour unless it`s an easy job in a call-center or whatever.
    For anyone trained and skilled in his job, this amount of pay is an insult.

    Therefore, I prefer discussin the whole picture, e.g. why there is even a need for minimum wages so low and why there are people who earn even less in some pretty exhausting jobs.
    And all this is happening in one of the most wealthy nations of the world. Not even one century after the Hawthorne-studies.

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  • 172. At 12:01pm on 24 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #171. At 11:33am on 24 Nov 2010, DurstigerMann

    Quite so, the minimum wage introduction was a typically poorly thought through Socialist led invention, as always they naively believed it would solve the problem of low wages. But it doesn't since it can never have any effect on the black economy which is where most low wages exist. Even in low wage sectors like Horeca the statutory wage only effects the legal hours worked and not the extra hours worked, as part time status with full time hours is well known.

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  • 173. At 12:57pm on 24 Nov 2010, Norman Conquest wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 174. At 1:46pm on 24 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    165 champagne charlie aks QOT:
    "Interesting figures. Now tell us what the minimum wage is for farm workers in Germany...."

    Better ask threnodio, but he he will insist that THERE IS NO MINIMUM WAGE IN GERMANY!

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  • 175. At 2:11pm on 24 Nov 2010, Norman Conquest wrote:

    @ 174

    and don't forget that over half of the Germanic minimum wage (or any wage for that matter) will be taken away from the earner unter the pretext of paying taxes to the government

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  • 176. At 2:32pm on 24 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    174 Norman Conquest

    Is that why they are one of the few nations that can actually balance their books because the people pay for their services and don't live on the never-never? I don't know where you live but has your government told you what they do with your taxes? Spend it on wars and interfere in other countries' affairs?

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  • 177. At 2:54pm on 24 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #174

    margarethoward;

    "Better ask threnodio, but he he will insist that THERE IS NO MINIMUM WAGE IN GERMANY!"

    I rather think threnodio has given up with the mind-numbing frustration of it all. You were incorrect in #32 and are simply too arrogant to admit it. You are wrong more times than not, and that is what happens when you try to participate in subjects you know nothing about ,just because you have access to wikipedia, the fools bible.

    THERE IS NO MINIMUM WAGE in Germany, and just because you are clinging to the notion that some workers in Germany get a sector-specific minimum wage doesn't change that one iota.

    There are sector collective bargaining agreements for :construction workers, electrical trades, painting and varnishing, roofers, building cleaning, mining,laundering services, waste management.

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  • 178. At 3:06pm on 24 Nov 2010, Norman Conquest wrote:

    @ 176

    Margaret,

    Well balanced books or not, still they are not that smart -- just like everyone else they are trading with China like there is no tomorrow and in fact already depend on it, as most of their exports (especially automotive) go there. This is very short term.

    You can't out-trade China, the only way to tackle it is not to trade or do business with it at all.

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  • 179. At 3:34pm on 24 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #175 NQ

    False !

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  • 180. At 3:38pm on 24 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #165 C_C

    No idea !

    --as I said -- others are worse ?

    Hardly an argument !

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  • 181. At 3:41pm on 24 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #164 Buzet 23

    --- God save the Queen ?

    --and long may she reign over us ?

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  • 182. At 3:42pm on 24 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    This is fun !!!!

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  • 183. At 4:01pm on 24 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #150

    Another contribution published and removed ?

    First Threnodio and now CBW ?

    --Cant´t stand the counter-attacks eh ?

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  • 184. At 6:10pm on 24 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    177 champagne charlie writes:

    "There are sector collective bargaining agreements for :construction workers, electrical trades, painting and varnishing, roofers, building cleaning, mining,laundering services, waste management."

    Most of the trades in fact. And they all have a minimum wage?

    "You were incorrect in #32 and are simply too arrogant to admit it."
    These are the figures I gave at 32. With your obviously much superior knowledge of the subject could you please correct these? (No googling allowed)

    German minimum wage: Hour 8.40euro Month 1,466
    United Kingdom Hour 6.83 Month 1,117
    France Hour 8.86 Month 1,343

    (No doubt you will now claim that the subject is beginning to bore you - the usual excuse for those who have no answer, except of course hurling insults)

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  • 185. At 6:43pm on 24 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 186. At 6:51pm on 24 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #184

    margarethoward;

    The UK and France figures are correct and when Germany gets a minimum wage, I'll be happy to correct your psychic premonition of what level it will be set at.

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  • 187. At 7:11pm on 24 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    It seems that statements of the obvious are justification for comments to be referred and removed. (I say referred because there there was nothing offensive in the post which would have led to its automatic removal).

    In any case, there was nothing more to be said on this topic or - on the evidence of this moderation decision - at any time in the future.

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  • 188. At 8:13pm on 24 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    182. At 3:42pm on 24 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
    This is fun !!!!

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    183. At 4:01pm on 24 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
    #150

    Another contribution published and removed ?

    First Threnodio and now CBW ?

    --Cant´t stand the counter-attacks eh ?

    Complain about this comment



    TO REPEAT FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME I HAVE NEVER & WOULD NEVER REFER/COMPLAIN TO MODS ABOUT YOUR'S OR ANY OF THE 'ANTI-ENGLISDH TROUPE COMMENTS.

    I have complained TWICE: 1) A reference to the Soham murdeer I felt was totally uncalled for. AND 2) A repeat Holocaust Denier I also felt was totally unacceptable.

    The inanities of anti-English biased offerings that dominate Your's, Margaret, DT (he's away?), Nik etc. are perfectly feasible contributions to be published.

    Most of them serve only to prove HOW PREJUDICIAL & WRONG YOU ALL ARE in most of the comments.

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  • 189. At 10:42pm on 24 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    186 champagne charlie
    If you go to *92 you will find the complete list of minimum wages, from Albania to the Uk, including Germany.

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  • 190. At 10:57pm on 24 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    188 CBW writes:
    "The inanities of anti-English biased offerings that dominate Your's, Margaret, DT (he's away?), Nik etc. are perfectly feasible contributions to be published."

    Just a reminder of CBW's own biased offerings regarding various contributors from other countries:
    'Flip' says the ex-Stasi fellow-traveller who flops at every topic as his bigotry & bias cannot be contained-

    There are countless others who have open-minds to the possibility America isn't the start, middle & finish version of the World!

    I know Greece is in really dire times, but surely their Health Service still provides assistance to the really serious cases?

    Now, I must get back to this fascinatingly accurate article on the 'Lancaster bomber' on the moon

    Oooh look, the 'Lancaster bomber' squadron on the moon has been joined by a flight of Luftwaffe Dorniers!

    The droning poor sap of the Alpine slopes is amongst us again

    The former Stasi stooge & frustrated goopse-stepper continues to write piffle & balderdash on the UK political scene of which he plainly has as little knowledge as his trifling 'aristocracy-CAP' meandering contributions.

    Just because the SchutzStaffel are no longer recruiting doesn't give You any excuse for stamping Your little feet in irritation at everyone else.

    How many more years is this drivel going to be churned out before the average Irish person wakes up to the Fact that protestant planting was 200 to 300 years ago, the famine was 160+ years ago and the language ban a law disappeared the late 19th Century!?Any chance the average Irish could stop complaining about the past and make an effort to join the rest of us in the present & future?

    iron Your best Bavarian lederhosen & polish those boots 'til You can see & join-up Your pimples -
    You don't want to end up with Your greased moustache & red nose surfing the tarmacadam car park as everyone celebrates the 'union' by a right old 'knees-up' Your proverbials!
    And all of these in just a few weeks. And that doesn't include any of his anti-Scottish tripe. What elegant prose!

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  • 191. At 11:00pm on 24 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #189 - margaret howard

    No, we will find a list copied and pasted from another resource. We are challenging the authority of that source but you continue to refuse to tell us what that source is. Why you would wish to do so and be so defensive about it as to see fit to refer an earlier comment because I was vaguely sarcastic is beyond me. That the mods saw fit to uphold the complaint is nothing short of staggering. Anyway, there is not a thing that could offend anyone in this post. Now answer the question please.

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  • 192. At 11:28pm on 24 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    191 threnodio writes:

    "Why you would wish to do so and be so defensive about it as to see fit to refer an earlier comment because I was vaguely sarcastic is beyond me. That the mods saw fit to uphold the complaint is nothing short of staggering. Anyway, there is not a thing that could offend anyone in this post. Now answer the question please."

    I have never referred anyone to the moderators. Do you normally accuse people on a whim? I expect an apology.

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  • 193. At 05:20am on 25 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #189

    margarethoward;

    "If you go to *92 you will find the complete list of minimum wages, from Albania to the Uk, including Germany."

    Am I writing in Swahili or something? Germany does not have a minimum wage. Publish what site your data is from.

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  • 194. At 12:24pm on 25 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    193 champagne charlie
    These are the figures I gave at 32. With your obviously much superior knowledge of the subject could you please correct these? (No googling allowed)

    German minimum wage: Hour 8.40euro Month 1,466
    United Kingdom Hour 6.83 Month 1,117
    France Hour 8.86 Month 1,343

    I am still waiting for your data. Where mine is from is completely immaterial and you are just stalling.

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  • 195. At 1:18pm on 25 Nov 2010, one step beyond wrote:

    Margaret, first I admit I googled. Found a web page which has similar figures (not exact)to yours except Germany is not included. See below for an extract of the monthly figures in alphabetical order

    France [6] 1,343.77 euros EUR 01.01.2010
    Greece [5] [9] 740.00 euros EUR 01.04.2009
    Hungary [10] 73,500 forints HUF 01.01.2010

    This web site also says -
    "Germany operates statutory minimum rates in the construction, janitorial and postal sectors."
    This is pretty much what Threnodio was saying.
    If you google 'FedEE review of minimum wage rates' you can check for yourself.
    I am quite happy to admit I do not know personally if there is a statutory minimum wage for all in Germany but if you have a link let is know and we can confirm you are right. All my checks so far have revealed is various sites complaining that there is no statutory minimum wage across all occupations in Germany.

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  • 196. At 1:31pm on 25 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #194

    margarethoward;

    I already answered that in #186, have the courtesy to read the posts before accusing me of stalling. The figures for France and the UK are correct, Germany is wrong. I cant give you a figure for something that doesn't exist.

    http://www.fedee.com/minwage.html

    You will notice that Germany is not on the list, and has an explanatory note instead.

    I want the link to your site so I can contact the site and get them to remove that figure. Perhaps that will convince you, although I now reckon you are getting such a rise out of this ludicrous exchange rather than actually wanting to know the facts. If you wont publish your link then you should contact the site and get them to remove the figure for Germany.

    Regardless of what you do, or dont do, I wont be involved in this farce anymore.

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  • 197. At 3:01pm on 25 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    196 champagne charlie writes:
    "Regardless of what you do, or dont do, I wont be involved in this farce anymore."

    Just what I predicted in 184 (I hope that applies to threnodio too!):

    (No doubt you will now claim that the subject is beginning to bore you - the usual excuse for those who have no answer, except of course hurling insults)


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  • 198. At 11:44am on 27 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    197. At 3:01pm on 25 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:"Regardless of what you do, or dont do, I wont be involved in this farce anymore."

    Just what I predicted in 184 (I hope that applies to threnodio too!):"


    BUT Margaret, You did make up that source, didn't You?

    You won't or can't provide the 'link'?

    This is the real point: You made it up and You won't retract because to do so would yet again reveal the paucity of genuine research and regard for factual detail that has so marked many of Your contributions.

    Nobody reading Your exchange with Threnodio, C_C & Buzet could conclude anything other than You deliberately tried to mislead with made-up information.

    I'm afraid associating with the greek & QOT has rubbed off on You to the degree You don't & won't recognise fact from Your fiction.

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