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Ireland's glimpse of pain

news | 15:22 UK time, Wednesday, 24 November 2010

Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen addresses reporters in Dublin, 24 November

The Irish government has announced what it calls "a major plan for economic recovery". It is brutal. Some have even labelled it "vicious".

Some of the broad details were trailed well in advance. There will be 15bn euros of savings over the next four years and 6bn of those will come next year. The balance between tax increase and spending cuts will be announced in the budget on 7 December.

Make no mistake, this a hard-knuckle plan. Very few other countries have cut spending by 20%.

Once again, the public sector will feel the axe. Cuts in public sector pay will account for 1.2bn euros. New entrants to the civil service or the public sector will get a 10% pay cut. Jobs will be lost - more than 24,000 of them. There will be cuts in public sector pensions.

The minimum wage will be reduced to 7.65 euros an hour.

Over the next four years, 2.8bn will be cut from the social welfare bill. There will be cuts in services. Students will have to make a new contribution to their studies.

Taxes will go up but not corporation tax which the plan says remains a "cornerstone of industrial policy". VAT will drift steadily up to 23% in 2014. The numbers paying the upper rate of income tax will go up. There will an increase in pension-related taxes.

The purpose of all this is to pare Ireland's deficit from 32% now (taking into account this year's one-off support for the banking sector) down to 3% in 2014.

A woman protests against the cuts in Dublin, 24 November

Many questions flow from this "blueprint for sustainable economic growth".

The government expects economic growth of 2.75% for the years 2011 to 2014. That is far from certain considering the spending cuts they are making.

To date, the Irish people have swallowed the austerity medicine. They may be more hostile this time around. There could well be demonstrations and opposition on the streets.

Elections are sure to follow and it is not clear which party or government will oversee this programme. The Irish people may use the ballot box to reject this package.

The plan says that economic recovery will be export-led. Although costs will clearly be lower - and that should help exports - many other countries that Ireland trades with are also making cuts.

The Irish will need good fortune this plan to deliver.

Comments

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  • 1. At 4:04pm on 24 Nov 2010, mr beige wrote:

    When people overstretch themselves mostly they try to do the right thing to pay off their debts, reduce expenses come up with a repayment plan. But to everyone there comes a point when it is too over whelming and thats when you say to your creditors you're going to get 10p in the pound and if you don't like it make me bankrupt! For the sake of future generations the Irish of today should not saddle themselves and their children with this unsustainable position.
    End this speculators greed and carpet bagging madness.

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  • 2. At 4:17pm on 24 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    From Gavin's article:
    """Many questions flow from this "blueprint for sustainable economic growth". The government expects economic growth of 2.75% for the years 2011 to 2014... The plan says that economic recovery will be export-led. Although costs will clearly be lower - and that should help exports - many other countries that Ireland trades with are also making cuts.
    The Irish will need good fortune this plan to deliver."""

    Some sharp remarks there.

    However my questioning goes beyond that. Ok, Irish are hardened people, they have their families around them, they will tighten their budgets supporting each other, they will find their ways, they will survive and they will pay their debts, let us say they do it in 5 years (kind of saying... let us suppose).

    The issue then is how on earth can Irish prevent this happening again. Can they put a ceiling to the borrowing habbits of their governments? Cos nobody ever voted a government to approve a huge indebtment. Neither Irish nor Greeks ever did so. We have to stop treating people as "hungry consuming animals drawn by easy money": people are largely ok to maintain a lower scale economy if it is to remain in the green rather than to push for a short lived outburst but go into the red and then sit down and pay it for years and even for generations.

    The hot issue is whether "out there" there is a whole system that lives out of feeding countries debt, thus enslaving them. The question is whether can a country of the size of Ireland has the power to decide on taking or not taking a loan or whether there are larger forces that encircle countries making sure that "their men" rise in power and take these slavery-like loans. Well... as said, the truth is out there.

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  • 3. At 4:23pm on 24 Nov 2010, one step beyond wrote:

    My heart goes out to Ireland, they are trying to do the right thing but it is a vicious circle. The more they cut public spending, the less people spend the more the economy contracts. Then less tax is collected and more public spending cuts are required. Without the flexibility of exchange rate control they are in for a very tough time.
    The U.K. will also face tough measures but we have had help with the comparatively low rate of sterling to help make our exports cheaper and imports more expensive.
    I sincerely hope Ireland comes out of this, similar thoughts go out to Spain and Greece, who I think are also in for much harder times ahead.

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  • 4. At 5:00pm on 24 Nov 2010, minuend wrote:


    Greece, then Ireland, then Portugal, then Spain.

    Who is next after these countries falter?

    The UK that's who.

    The UK's exposure to this contagion makes it No.5 on the hit list.

    Everyone better pray that Ireland gets through this.

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  • 5. At 5:24pm on 24 Nov 2010, jobsagoodin wrote:

    'The Irish government has announced what it calls "a major plan for economic recovery". It is brutal. Some have even labelled it "vicious".'

    Has anyone labelled it ideological ?

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  • 6. At 5:36pm on 24 Nov 2010, DevilsAdvocate wrote:

    This is the ERM Mk2, it will have its own Black Wednesday Mk2 although it may not be in Ireland.

    The Tories surely aren't so stupid as to get involved in this are they? I suspect I know the answer to that, sadly.

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  • 7. At 6:14pm on 24 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    " 4. At 5:00pm on 24 Nov 2010, minuend wrote:
    ...The UK's exposure to this contagion makes it No.5 on the hit list.
    Everyone better pray that Ireland gets through this."

    You are very right about that. And Irelands best help is euro and EU. Eurohaters should think about this.

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  • 8. At 7:02pm on 24 Nov 2010, Mathiasen wrote:

    The general elections in Ireland in January will be a de facto referendum on the economic policy, the recovery plan, and the alternatives to the recovery plan. It shall be most interesting to follow this social experiment.

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  • 9. At 7:04pm on 24 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #7 - Pate

    Forgive a statement of the obvious but, if Ireland had control of interest rates which would have curbed borrowing during the boom and now, when beneficial rates would encourage inward investment, do you really believe they would be in this mess now?

    The Euro is the enemy - not because it is a bad idea, not because it is structurally unsound - but because it is over-regulated, restrictive and dysfunctional. Like so much that happens in the EU, it has become the vehicle of the bureaucrats, a license to print money - just as long as it is used to pay public servants (sic?) in Brussels and Strasbourg and to hell with those who will lose their jobs elsewhere.

    Pate, I am fervently in favour of the EU project, rather more agnostic about the single currency but unless and until the architects of the 'grand scheme' acknowledge that they got it wrong and are booted out in favour of people with imagination and vision and - above all - a bit of common sense, neither project is going anywhere.

    I have fiercely resisted the Euro sceptic tendency on this blog for many years but I am seriously considering whether or not I was right. One more shove and I may cross the line.

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  • 10. At 7:08pm on 24 Nov 2010, Jukka Rohila wrote:

    Ireland definitely is doing the right thing with this budget. While it definitely will be very painful for the Irish in the short run, in long run they will rebound much faster because of these cuts. I also think that cuts as deep as these, will calm down angry voices in other Eurozone countries and create sympathy for Ireland as the Irish and the Irish state are really trying their best to get things right.

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  • 11. At 8:03pm on 24 Nov 2010, Jukka Rohila wrote:

    To threnodio_II (9):

    And things are all fine and dandy in Iceland that isn't part of the Eurozone?

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  • 12. At 8:33pm on 24 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    " 9. At 7:04pm on 24 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:
    Forgive a statement of the obvious but, if Ireland had control of interest rates...do you really believe they would be in this mess now?"

    The mess started because of USA greedy banks and loose loans. Irish are victims of that and they were little bit greedy too.

    "EU, it has become the vehicle of the bureaucrats, a license to print money"

    EU have less bureaucrats than USA per capital. And USA is now printing money. I would sell all my dollars if I have any left.

    "Pate, I am fervently in favour of the EU project...a bit of common sense, neither project is going anywhere."

    Future is coming and there is no way back. Little currencies can not fight against USD and Yuan, both greedy as hec.

    If there were no euro, Greek, Ireland and Portugal would be in bankruptcy by now or in few months. And pound would be under speculators attacks. It's a lot better that dollar takes the blame for it's own greedy flaws. It's now printing new bills, but I wont touch them, I'll keep my money in euros now.

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  • 13. At 8:35pm on 24 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    11 - Jukka Rohila

    Somewhat better than Ireland one would think.

    What about Sweden, Denmark, Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Estonia and the UK? All doomed are they?

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  • 14. At 8:58pm on 24 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #12. At 8:33pm on 24 Nov 2010, Pate

    It is truly sad to see someone so poor in understanding what has caused this crisis, you blame the speculators always, but as always these sharp cookies have played the fools for their money. And boy have the EU Euro politicians fallen into their greedy hands, yet you don't seem to see that, it is the career undemocratic EU politicians who have allowed this to happen, no one else. Without these imbeciles in politics the greedy bankers had no chance.

    Without the Greedy, nose in the snout, undemocratic, EU politicians, it is impossible the current crisis would exist, firstly there would be no Euro, secondly if it was to be introduced the convergence criteria would have been met, thirdly if not, only those countries that were viable would have used the Euro. Now justify?

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  • 15. At 9:01pm on 24 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #12 - Pate

    I want to be clear. Is it your position that the Euro is the mechanism that is preventing the GB pound from coming under speculative attack?

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  • 16. At 9:05pm on 24 Nov 2010, Jukka Rohila wrote:

    To threnodio_II (13):

    Your memory seems short. In the worst times of the financial crisis in Iceland, the Icelandic currency became nearly worthless and virtually impossible to exchange into any other currency. Do you remember that? Do you also remember that their interest rates jumped to 18%? Only recently the Icelandic Central Bank has been able to lower their interest rate back to 7%.

    Now to your question about other countries, they are doomed to the same financial collapse that happened in Iceland sooner or later due to their small size. Only large economic entities such as the USA and the Eurozone can keep their currencies exchangeable in any market situation. It has happened before, it will happen again.

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  • 17. At 9:21pm on 24 Nov 2010, Norman Conquest wrote:

    The Euro is doing just fine... Der Spiegel says so

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,730784,00.html

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  • 18. At 9:22pm on 24 Nov 2010, Jukka Rohila wrote:

    To threnodio_II (13):

    To add to my previous comment, here is the development history of the exchange rate of Icelandic Krona versus Euro.

    http://tinyurl.com/3x7jj3g

    Before the crisis in 2007 with one Euro you got approx 70 Krona, in 2009 with one Euro you got 180 Krona and still today you get approx 152 Krona. In short the value of Icelandic Krona has more than halved.

    Just think about it how would you feel if someday you would notice that the value of your saving has halved. Everything cost double from manufactured products like cars and computers to commodities like oil. Not very nice.

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  • 19. At 9:27pm on 24 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #16

    JR

    Iceland is a bad example. It has a population the size of Coventry and is extremely vulnerable to external shocks, like all 3 of its main banks running out of money at the same time. If Coventry issued its own currency and its 3 main banks ran out of money I would expect the same result.

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  • 20. At 9:55pm on 24 Nov 2010, reincarnation wrote:

    18. Jukka Rohila

    There seems such a clear contrast between the Nordic countries (except Iceland), whose banks went through a bubble crisis in the 1990s and have avoided making the same mistake again, and the countries like Iceland, UK and the PIIGS who simply replicated the Scandinavian crisis on a much huger scale. Membership of the euro or not doesn't seem to be the critical issue. More a question of whether the electorate voted for stupid politicians with a short-term view.

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  • 21. At 9:56pm on 24 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Mathiasen

    Re #8 & "..The general elections in Ireland in January will be a de facto referendum on the economic policy, the recovery plan, and the alternatives to the recovery plan. It shall be most interesting to follow this social experiment."

    Cannot agree.

    No National Election is ever about the supra-National EU and even less about a Currency.

    Of course membership of the EU is a factor as is the Euro, however, the the major factor will be the Irish Citizens' views on the Irish Government whose policies led them into the present gross debacle, i.e. the Economic record.
    They can't really vote on the 'recovery plan' from any knowledge as it will not even have properly started: They can vote on what they perceive may be the effects of a 'plan' presented by that same Government whose previous policies destroyed the Irish Economy.
    They'll vote even less on 'alternatives' because it is highly unlikely there will be any genuine 'alternatives' out there to consider( the extreme will say 'get rid' of Euro, maybe EU, but that isn't going to play with the majority of Irish Citizens - - it makes no sense as it won't solve anything - - I say that as a fervent UK 'anti-EU').

    Fianna Foil will be heavily defeated: The next Government of whatever Poltical make-up will then tinker with the edges of the 'recovery plan' but do nothing radical as in reality they cannot.

    It is the same for the Irish Electorate: They'll sweep out the Government and elect another to do what is being done.

    None of it is a vote on the EU: To put it another way, if there was a 3rd Lisbon Referendum due it wouldn't even get 10% support, but the EU isn't the debate, neither is the currency and the only de facto is which Political group gets to carry the can for implementing the 'recover plan' because at the lection after this one they will in turn get booted out.

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  • 22. At 10:02pm on 24 Nov 2010, Jukka Rohila wrote:

    To champagne_charlie (19):

    Well lets take other countries as an example, lets say...

    Finland with 5 million inhabitants, modern market economy with major international companies and still during the 1990-1993 depression, currency was devalued 40%, interest rates went to 18%, number of companies went down to 15%, GDP down to 14%, unemployment to nearly 20%. Good times.

    or...

    Britain. Do you still remember Black Wednesday?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday

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  • 23. At 10:03pm on 24 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #18 - Jukka Rohila

    Whereas the value of the Irish euro has consistently been the same as the mainland Europe Euro - as indeed have the interest rates. Well there's a surprise! And just look where it has gotten them.

    #19 - champagne_charlie

    "If Coventry issued its own currency and its 3 main banks ran out of money I would expect the same result"

    Long queues at ATM's in Brum?

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  • 24. At 10:08pm on 24 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #9 Thenodio

    --- America was in full charge of interest rates -and look what happened !

    ---- Britain also !

    --you are as usual, barking up the wrong tree.

    --and repeatedly posting the same without thinking !

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  • 25. At 10:13pm on 24 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #21 - cool_brush_work

    ". . . by that same Government whose previous policies destroyed the Irish Economy".

    But did they?

    You could say much the same thing of Bush's Republicans or Brown's NuLabour. The people who ultimately did for the economy world wide were the people the politicians conspicuously failed to regulate. It was not bad economic management, it was lack of oversight.

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  • 26. At 10:20pm on 24 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    minuend

    Re #4 & "..Greece, then Ireland, then Portugal, then Spain.
    Who is next after these countries falter?
    The UK that's who.
    The UK's exposure to this contagion makes it No.5 on the hit list..."

    AND,

    7. Pate wrote:
    " 4. At 5:00pm on 24 Nov 2010, minuend wrote:
    ...The UK's exposure to this contagion makes it No.5 on the hit list.
    Everyone better pray that Ireland gets through this."
    You are very right about that. And Irelands best help is euro and EU. Eurohaters should think about this."


    Hmm, think You've been looking at the wrong Economic-Fiscal tables:
    The EUro-zone has 16 members & apart from the 4 You mention there is Italy, Austria, Belgium directly in the line-of-fiscal-fire.
    Then there's Slovakia that wouldn't even contribute to the Greek 'bail-out' & a major reason was its own economic problems.
    As for Slovenia, as recent as 18th November its Development & European Affairs Minister, Mitja Gaspari was quoted as saying, 'Slovenia would not be able to meet its Debt obligations if borrowers default on the Euro stability mechanism..'

    You may also like to keep in mind 11 of the 16 at this moment do not meet the Qualification Criteria for the EUro-zone.

    The UK does not have any such 'criteria' to meet and only yesterday had its highest-level Credit Rating reaffirmed. Whether 'EU-hater' or 'pro-EU' the UK is nowhere near in the same position as some of the 'zone' members.

    Frankly, minuend & pate read more like 'UK-haters' because why else would they write in such a manner about the UK?

    When all is said & done the UK was not directly responsible for any of the misconceived & misdirected EUro-zone policies over the last decade E.g. Greece's double-accounting, Ireland's excessive Banking gambles, the Economic woes of Portugal, Spain, never mind the botched oversight & management of the EUro-zone 'entry criteria'.

    Whether 'pro-EU' such as minued & pate like it or not the 'zone' has its problems because of the Political wishful-thinking of Brussels and its intransigent strait-jacket ECB regulation - - both of which contributed to a cumbersome & ineffective response to the World Economic Recession & its aftermath.

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  • 27. At 10:42pm on 24 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #20 Reincarnation

    Some Nordic banks had big problems with their Baltic States loans.

    Loans were in Euros-- to non-Euro customers.

    --same in Hungary.

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  • 28. At 10:43pm on 24 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #24 - quietoaktree

    I could live with your insults if you were factually correct, and I would politely correct you if you were in error. But to be insulting and wrong in the same post is downright offensive.

    Minimum lending rate (as it is known in the UK) is set in the United States by the Federal Reserve Bank and in the UK by the Bank of England. Neither institution is a government department. Both are supposedly independent.

    So what exactly do you mean by "America (being) in full charge of interest rates - Britain also"?

    But then I am "as usual, barking up the wrong tree - and repeatedly posting the same without thinking" so in the improbable event that you have an intelligent answer, chances are I would not understand it anyway - right?

    Now, if you will forgive me, I have a life to live.

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  • 29. At 10:44pm on 24 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #26. At 10:20pm on 24 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work

    I'm wondering why nobody is mentioning France as being the biggest next in the firing line member state, it's clear that Sarko has got the French media under his control. In Lisbon this last weekend he called a journalist a Paedophile because the guy asked embarrassing questions that could not be asked in France on pain of being fired. He even claimed that the French secret services had given him this information but of course the source was secret. Since then the French media do not report this story, instead it's Boom Boom Be Booommm, ici Bruxelles.

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  • 30. At 10:44pm on 24 Nov 2010, Arrrgh wrote:

    Nothing changed for all the death, that their ideas created
    It's just the same fascistic games, but the rules aren't clearly stated
    Nothing's really different cos all government's the same
    They can call it freedom, but slavery is the game
    There's nothing that you offer but a dream of last years hero
    The truth of revolution, brother................... is year zero.

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  • 31. At 11:00pm on 24 Nov 2010, reincarnation wrote:

    27. quietoaktree

    Indeed Swedish banks became the raptors in the Baltic states. Sweden itself, however, is not under threat through that.

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  • 32. At 11:18pm on 24 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    First Greece, then Portugal, then Ireland, then Spain, Italy, Austria, Slovakia, France, Britain and so on... whatTF... let us say better the one after the other the 70% of Europe. So what is the problem? To whom do we own? To other states perhaps? Which one? USA? USA owns too - more than the whole of Europe together. So it is private people. So? What does this tell us? Private people got each European country to enter the dance of overindebtment? Nice.

    I mean what is the problem going back and reviewing each of these loans? Is it not the responsibility of a state? In the case of Greece some more than 50% were actually illegal and not only Greek but also European justice not only could but should commence procedures in punishing the responsibles and telling those "private" to go seek from there their money.

    You laugh eh? You know this is "impossible" while it is 100% a legal obligation of any state. You know that much of that indebtment is illegal and that what they ask us to pay is illegal but we still sit down and discuss "how" we are supposed to find a way to pay.

    So why do we sit down and discuss it? Do we want to face the reality or not? Aren't we ruled by the international bankoinvesting oligarchy or not? What EU and non-EU... we should not complain at all. That is the reality and as such we have to acknowledge it and sit down and pay illegal taxes for paying back illegal slave debt.

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  • 33. At 11:27pm on 24 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    29. At 10:44pm on 24 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
    """I'm wondering why nobody is mentioning France as being the biggest next in the firing line member state, it's clear that Sarko has got the French media under his control. In Lisbon this last weekend he called a journalist a Paedophile because the guy asked embarrassing questions that could not be asked in France on pain of being fired. He even claimed that the French secret services had given him this information but of course the source was secret. Since then the French media do not report this story, instead it's Boom Boom Be Booommm, ici Bruxelles."""

    French media reported the story but they simply stated it as an "unfortunate mistake" of the president and as such it was treated - they did not say that Sarkozy had added that he got the info that the journalist is paedophile from the secret services!!! You know, Sarkozy has a bad habit of attacking jourbalists and he had asked the firing of star-journalists (like Patrick Poivre D'Arvor - the national tv presenter who vanished from the tv scene for having treated Sarkozy with ... lack of respect... these short men, full of complexes...

    However this is very uncomfortable. Politicians have for long attacked journalists, firing them, beating them and even having them killed... but this "paedophilic" accusation is extremely horrific: I mean just imagine it : if the president does not like a journalist, no assasination, no beating, no firing... he just puts the secret services to fabricate false evidence of the journalist being an as-if paedophile, trap him and have him arrested and sent him to prison to have him raped by the other inmates all while the family of the journalist will have to vanish from the face of the earth out of shame... I mean can you imagine? Better kill him on spot than that.

    What is shocking is that if Sarkozy indeed said that he got the info from the secret service, one should wonder why on earh the police this information and go to invetigate the crimes of this man rather than keep this information just in case this journalist makes the "wrong question". I find the whole case extremely worrying...

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  • 34. At 11:34pm on 24 Nov 2010, Arrrgh wrote:

    One good thing to come out of all these financial problems is maybe all the fat people will now lose some weight and save the health service some money. It all comes down to economics.

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  • 35. At 11:49pm on 24 Nov 2010, Arrrgh wrote:

    A slimmer world is waiting for all of us we just have to let go of the chill cabinet door.

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  • 36. At 02:10am on 25 Nov 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:

    "Once again, the public sector will feel the axe. Cuts in public sector pay will account for 1.2bn euros. New entrants to the civil service or the public sector will get a 10% pay cut. Jobs will be lost - more than 24,000 of them. There will be cuts in public sector pensions"

    And whilst this is happening Eurocrats will be getting an increase.

    THE "EU" IS NAUSEATING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  • 37. At 02:33am on 25 Nov 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 38. At 02:35am on 25 Nov 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11828837

    Read the above to find out about the perks the worthless ones get!

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  • 39. At 02:36am on 25 Nov 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:


    Because the employees of the worse-than-useless "EU" are to get wage increases, we should all make more efforts to find legal ways to avoid paying taxes.

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  • 40. At 05:16am on 25 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Can a country leave euro zone without much pain?


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11830532

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  • 41. At 05:20am on 25 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Ireland definitely is doing the right thing with this budget. While it definitely will be very painful for the Irish in the short run, in long run they will rebound much faster because of these cuts."





    If minimum 5 years is a short term for you, tell that to the Irish; particularly to the young ones. (:

    BTW. I don't think that "the next country [ to default] after Portugal and Spain will be UK".


    More like ITALY.

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  • 42. At 05:23am on 25 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    threnodio_II wrote:
    11 - Jukka Rohila

    Somewhat better than Ireland one would think.

    What about Sweden, Denmark, Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Estonia and the UK? All doomed are they?




    A very good point.

    BTW. Perhaps Greeks should look at Turkey's growth rate and learn something from such observations.

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  • 43. At 05:32am on 25 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 44. At 05:39am on 25 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Pate:

    It's now printing new bills, but I wont touch them, I'll keep my money in euros now.




    Your loss is my gain: I sold last of my euros 6 months ago.
    And pretty soon I'll start buying US$$$.

    Just like I bought as many Boeing's shares as I could afford when everybody and their grandmother predicted the company's demise. :)


    [no, I'm not starving, thank you very much]


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  • 45. At 05:45am on 25 Nov 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #12 Pate

    You are wrong ! The mess started when countries such as Greece , Italy , Spain and Portugal were accepted to the Eurozone by falsifying their accounts to qualify . Countries that are already in debt can only go forward with loans and become prey to the unscrupulous banks .
    The Euro has given its member states the possibility to borrow and borrow and borrow .
    The EU the Euro , National Governments and the Banks are all partners in the crime .

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  • 46. At 06:06am on 25 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re 45

    Huaimek.

    Many new countries were admitted to EU not because nobody in Brussels knew they were unqualified, but becasue the main objective was purely political: expand EU as much as possible ASAP in hope of making it into a powerful "United States of Europe as a counterbalance to the United States of America", as certain Giscard d'Estaing put it.

    What this mania grandiosa resulted in is out there for anybody to see.

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  • 47. At 08:00am on 25 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "The euro has continued its slide against the dollar as investors digest the Irish Republic's austerity plan.

    The currency fell by almost half a cent to $1.3325, and has now fallen by more than three cents this week." (BBC News)

    Please, no more.

    US exporters would't like to see US$ strenghen and euro weaken more than that.



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  • 48. At 08:25am on 25 Nov 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #46 powermeekat

    Yes ," Because the main object was purely political ".

    Prodi , former president of the EU commission , had formerly been prime minister of Italy and he knew perfectly well Italy was hugely in debt and didn't qualify for the Euro .

    I don't believe Brussels didn't know , they just turned a blind eye .
    You can't introduce a new European currency with only a handful of members ; there would be no credibility from the start .

    Yes , Little Men with Big Ideas , with not the competence to understand what they are doing and foresee the end result . Disaster !!!

    The commission would have done well to have left Ireland alone for the time being . Pushing Ireland into a further more severe austerity programme now , may have done more harm than good , further putting at risk the failure of Portugal and Spain . I believe that Greece will eventually have no choice but to default and all the billions lent to prop it up will be lost for ever .

    I always like to look on the bright side ! May the Euro go into free fall !

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  • 49. At 08:26am on 25 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #33. At 11:27pm on 24 Nov 2010, Nik

    The story of this Sarko incident is getting run on Belgian tv and last nights journal program gave it quite a few minutes plus a non-video recording of Sarko's words.

    My French friend who watches French events says Sarko is losing the plot and becoming megalomaniacal. I guess he knows that at the next election he will be rejected, but then the opposition party (PS) is also in disarray. He has also recently been questioned by some journalists about what happened with the Roma's and no mention was allowed that France had to change a law to put it in step with EU directives.

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  • 50. At 08:32am on 25 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #38. At 02:35am on 25 Nov 2010, EUprisoner209456731

    The keywords in that article are that the ECJ judges who made that ruling are also on the EU payroll. They effectively had a beneficial interest in the case and should never have been able to hear it, justice, ha ha ha.

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  • 51. At 08:41am on 25 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Threnodio II,

    I wonder exactly how "exposed" was Europe? Exposed as in literally?

    Why DID Chinese investors with cash not buy European treasury bonds during your ongoing European crisis?

    Watch a USA CBS 60 minutes program--a recent one--on the USA's ongoing unemployment crisis--more than 2 years of unemployment for the "10 percent" and still no new jobs comparable..remotely.. comparable to those that were lost here. Its a harsh reality no matter what the reasoning.

    Compassion fatigue may have set in, but charities are still needed..

    but does Europe even have that option?--government socialistic programs being the charity of choice, there. That is too bad.

    Spleen, no, reality, yes. I have a good friend who is planning on using the Catholic Charities for helping her have a Christmas here in the USA.

    At work, we have the United Way, a non-religious charity that disperses donations to all charities registered there. We can choose to give to it, if we want.

    I just do hope there are similar charities set up in Europe for religious and non religious needy people. (I do hope all free thinking atheists will benefit, too from them)

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  • 52. At 09:11am on 25 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Yes , Little Men with Big Ideas , with not the competence to understand what they are doing and foresee the end result . Disaster !!!"


    Huaimek, what can I possibly add to that? Nothing.

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  • 53. At 09:12am on 25 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Why DID Chinese investors with cash not buy European treasury bonds during your ongoing European crisis?"


    Stevenson, you tell me.

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  • 54. At 09:15am on 25 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "I'm saddened by these cuts. They cut the wages of the poorest, without balancing it up at the other end. They quadruple education fees, with no change to capital taxes. As somebody who will probably have to drop out of college next year, I feel robbed by a party who misappropriated the funds of, and responsibilities to, this country over the last ten years. Daniel Lynch, Dublin" (BBC reporting)

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  • 55. At 09:36am on 25 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    42. At 05:23am on 25 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
    """BTW. Perhaps Greeks should look Turkey's growth rate and learn something from such observations."""

    Learn like what? Do extensive ethnic cleansing, do 2-3 genocides, invade other peoples' countries serving the interests of some large block of interests, fanatise the people, organise the occasional pogrom, do convince people to give birth to 10 children and send the 1/3rd of them to Europe to bring back money and last but not least sit down and enjoy the nice geographical position and while doing nothing particular receiving the investments flying from everywhere. Well no, this cannot be done.

    Sounds comical powermeerkat. But let us talk seriously. There is no country like another. Each is its own case. Greece and Portugal have similar size, similar population and even the culture in general has some commmon ground (Greeks and Portuguese people though not close, get along very well) but at the end they are 2 vastly different countries and what would work for the one would not work for the other.

    Turkey just 15 years ago was in ugly shape and in dire financial situation so one wonders what happened and everything was corrected by magic since the islamists started rising to power some 10 years back. In reality both Turkey's dire financial problems as well as their recent increase are all technically provoked - Turkey has a big production machine and a big potential but both its very recent trouble and dealing with the IMF as well as the recent vast improvements were technically induced for the simple reason that the country is a mere tool in a greater geopolitical game in the region. We have discussed again in the past that, but take my word, you will be seeing more from Turkey in future and it won't be all about "development" and "market growth".

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  • 56. At 10:24am on 25 Nov 2010, john wrote:

    With respect Mr.Hewitt's let us focus on the real problem and not Ireland -Portugal the Euro and Ect.
    In 1798 the French revolution began primarily against the noble,high society and injustice.
    The motto Liberty,Equality and Fraternity it still valid today.
    We are now in 2010 221 years after the revolution is time for the people of Europe and the world to start a new revolution against the new noble
    the king is represent by the credit agency the close noble friend are the hedge found / the short selling and is friend is the out of date financial system.
    In the dictionary of the above the word liberty - equality and fraternity are missing and replaced in Capital letters by GREED and ME ME.......................................
    John

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  • 57. At 11:36am on 25 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    " 45. At 05:45am on 25 Nov 2010, Huaimek wrote:
    ...The mess started when countries such as Greece , Italy , Spain and Portugal were accepted to the Eurozone by falsifying their accounts to qualify . "

    That might be one explanation if you want to go that far back. But this economical crisis started with american banks loaning too much money for households. This particular bankcrisis is not political, it's economical. Banks made it and banks should pay for it.

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  • 58. At 11:45am on 25 Nov 2010, bbony wrote:

    No one has said the word: a disappointment. I was really expecting more from the Irish resistivity to the menacing concept of unification and centralisation. In order to save the euro the Ireland has sacrificed some of its values. And those happen to be substantially more than low tax rates or recently erected real estates or capacity in consuming.

    A fier has been invented to befog the interest which is common. Who is next? Who has left to resist? What else should be done to stop the Germany (or just the concept) from leaving the zone? Etc.

    Not only PIIG contries have benefited from running in the same run with Germany, for sure. And the EU is not all about Germany.

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  • 59. At 12:04pm on 25 Nov 2010, Freeman wrote:

    "
    or...

    Britain. Do you still remember Black Wednesday?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday"

    The perfect link for any Euro based discussion JR.

    A lesson in what happens when ideology clashes with economics.

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  • 60. At 12:18pm on 25 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    40 powermeer writes:
    "Can a country leave euro zone without much pain?"

    Does that apply if some countries want to leave the dollar? You have heard of rats wanting to leave the sinking ship?


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  • 61. At 12:26pm on 25 Nov 2010, Peter David Jones wrote:

    This new Irish plan is very severe when you consider that Ireland has already imposed a heavy dose of austerity for itself over the past couple of years.I notice that some analysts consider this lastest work of the Irish government to have its roots based in fantasy rather than reality.According to notayesmanseconomics.
    "So if 2011 growth conforms to the average after the 3.5% of GDP adjustment we are expecting the rest of the economy to grow by over 6%. This is of course at a time when one of the previous drivers of Celtic Tiger economic growth,easy credit, will be noticeable by its absence."
    http://notayesmanseconomics.wordpress.com

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  • 62. At 12:34pm on 25 Nov 2010, Mathiasen wrote:

    This week’s edition of Die Zeit is of course concerned with the Euro crisis.
    In Berlin a plan is being worked out for a Euro-Zone 2.0 the paper writes, only it must be kept secret - a least till the EU summit in December. Before that chancellor Merkel must speak with two tongues, since the audience abroad wants solidarity and the audience at home want solidity.

    At the summit in December three lies will be put ad acta the paper concludes: Europe’s important decisions are taken collectively in Bruxelles. In a still larger EU Germany decides still less, and thirdly: The European integration has reached an end.
    We are living in interesting times.

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  • 63. At 12:43pm on 25 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #57. At 11:36am on 25 Nov 2010, Pate

    The majority of the Euro members should never have been admitted since they failed the convergence test that was supposed to ensure only sound economies became linked. The PIIGS were not sound economies at the point of entry to the Euro and blaming the banks for exploiting that is just crazy, they simply exploited the weaknesses that were there all along, that is regrettable but basic business technique. The fault lies with the politicians and their political agenda that set the Eurozone up in the first place, if logic and common sense had been used a truly workable Euro could today exist with only strong and similar economic models. Logic and common sense was however terminally absent and/or ignored, also the problems of today were well known by the central banks I can assure you, as I worked in a central bank for the introduction of the Euro and the problem of a fixed inflexible interest rate was often discussed.

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  • 64. At 1:27pm on 25 Nov 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:

    62. At 12:34pm on 25 Nov 2010, Mathiasen wrote:

    "This week’s edition of Die Zeit is of course concerned with the Euro crisis.
    In Berlin a plan is being worked out for a Euro-Zone 2.0 the paper writes, only it must be kept secret - a least till the EU summit in December. Before that chancellor Merkel must speak with two tongues, since the audience abroad wants solidarity and the audience at home want solidity."

    Re:"Before that chancellor Merkel must speak with two tongues..."

    Do "EU"-Loving/Supporting politicians ever do anything else???????

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  • 65. At 1:29pm on 25 Nov 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:

    62. At 12:34pm on 25 Nov 2010, Mathiasen wrote:

    "This week’s edition of Die Zeit ..."

    Thank you for that information. Sometimes people complain that this blog is biased. IMUO the way to deal with that is to correct the "bias" by providing information.

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  • 66. At 1:39pm on 25 Nov 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:


    Austrian Radio website suggests the Belgium is the next wobbly country - high debts, no government.


    YES!


    BELGIUM!!!

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  • 67. At 1:48pm on 25 Nov 2010, Mild_and_Creamy wrote:

    #14

    "It is truly sad to see someone so poor in understanding what has caused this crisis, you blame the speculators always, but as always these sharp cookies have played the fools for their money. And boy have the EU Euro politicians fallen into their greedy hands, yet you don't seem to see that, it is the career undemocratic EU politicians who have allowed this to happen, no one else. Without these imbeciles in politics the greedy bankers had no chance.

    Without the Greedy, nose in the snout, undemocratic, EU politicians, it is impossible the current crisis would exist, firstly there would be no Euro, secondly if it was to be introduced the convergence criteria would have been met, thirdly if not, only those countries that were viable would have used the Euro. Now justify?"


    Right I am calling this out.

    At what point did an EU politician or an EU official make this problem?

    The Euro was a decision of each member state. Made by their own politicians not any EU offical. That means if the Euro was a mistake it was a mistake made by National politicians.

    Yes the EU officals administer the system, but can only do so within the rules set out by the National Governments. If the rule suck then it is for the national politicians to change them.

    The blame for the bad rules lie at the door of national politicians not at the EU's doors.

    Fine you don't like the EU it is a reasonable position. But recognise that the EU only gets its rules and powers from national governments.

    There is a democratic problem with the EU, but that is because the national governments are not willing to do root and branch reform so that it reflects what the EU does now.

    It has proved to be an excellent wheeze for national politicians to blame bad news on the EU and claim any good results as there own. The EU at the moment allows national politicians to excersise power without responsibility. That is the problem with the EU.

    Whether the answer to that problem is to abolish the EU or reform is a matter for reasoned debate. But please blame the people with the power not the people that have to follow orders.

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  • 68. At 2:26pm on 25 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    62. At 12:34pm on 25 Nov 2010, Mathiasen wrote:
    """This week’s edition of Die Zeit is of course concerned with the Euro crisis.
    In Berlin a plan is being worked out for a Euro-Zone 2.0 the paper writes, only it must be kept secret - a least till the EU summit in December."""

    Mathiasen, that is ok, it is good, Eurozone 2.0, like Microsoft change from XP to 7 via Vista. However we have to sit down and realise that the core-problem of Europe is not just the euro-zone or the anyway defective financial strategies followed but Europe's geostrategic deficit. We can decide on the ideal EU structure, we might return to good old EEC, we might employ the best appicable solutions: they won't work. For the simple reason that we have not deployed a common military, defense, energy & space dogma.

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  • 69. At 3:06pm on 25 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #66. At 1:39pm on 25 Nov 2010, EUprisoner209456731

    It's not just that Belgium has no government, it's that since the general election in June the elected representatives have not agreed a new government so for the moment the old government is still there. Belgium is looking like it will cease to exist as plan A has failed and plan B (splitting) is now being considered. If that happens Flanders and Wallonia will be separate and a bun fight for Brussels will commence. As for the debts they are indeed high but they are largely internal debts rather than external and that makes it unlikely for a failure, if however the country splits then all bets are off.

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  • 70. At 4:58pm on 25 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    MARCUS

    Wherever your soul (?) may be--

    The Order of the Oaks

    Wishes you

    A Happy Thanksgiving !

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  • 71. At 5:22pm on 25 Nov 2010, phoenix wrote:

    External Debt as % of GDP

    Ireland 1004%
    UK 416%
    Portugal 223%
    France 188%
    Spain 165%
    Germany 155%
    Italy 101%

    Portugal Next? I think Britain should be very wary. After all who will ride to Britains aid....

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  • 72. At 5:38pm on 25 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "56. At 10:24am on 25 Nov 2010, john wrote:
    ...In the dictionary of the above the word liberty - equality and fraternity are missing and replaced in Capital letters by GREED and ME ME.."

    You are so very right. This is all about GREED. And taxpayers and politics are here to shut down the flames that bankers lit. And now we have speculating bankers lighting more fires. Like making headlines: do Ireland fall, do Portugal fall. That's all speculators game. And we taxpayers are - the payers.

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  • 73. At 5:44pm on 25 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "63. At 12:43pm on 25 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
    ...Logic and common sense was however terminally absent and/or ignored, also the problems of today were well known by the central banks I can assure you, as I worked in a central bank for the introduction of the Euro and the problem of a fixed inflexible interest rate was often discussed."

    So you think that bankers were aloud to steal, cheat and rob so much they can, because the laws were little bit too loose. Well it is not.

    We have this word moral. Does it ring the bell. Well maybe not for bank worker.

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  • 74. At 5:46pm on 25 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "63. At 12:43pm on 25 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
    ...Logic and common sense was however terminally absent and/or ignored, also the problems of today were well known by the central banks I can assure you, as I worked in a central bank for the introduction of the Euro and the problem of a fixed inflexible interest rate was often discussed."

    So you think that bankers were aloud to steal, cheat and rob so much they can, because the laws were little bit too loose?

    We have this word moral. Does it ring the bell. Well maybe not for a bank worker.

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  • 75. At 6:41pm on 25 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "14. At 8:58pm on 24 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
    #12. At 8:33pm on 24 Nov 2010, Pate

    It is truly sad to see someone so poor in understanding what has caused this crisis, you blame the speculators"

    And BTW I am very happy that they sold Bernie Madoff's underpants in an auction at New York. And the 150 years prison sentence were about just right. Maybe year or two more or less maybe more. Some judge had very very good understanding.

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  • 76. At 7:06pm on 25 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #44 - powermeerkat

    "And pretty soon I'll start buying US$$$"

    Good plan - and just to think that all you used to get from Uncle Ben was rice. Happy Christmas.

    #51 - Stevenson

    "Why DID Chinese investors with cash not buy European treasury bonds during your ongoing European crisis?"

    They did very quietly. The possibility of a major fall out over the Fed's 'constructive devaluation' has caused them to go public and it is now widely known not only that they are in the bond market but that they are willing to buy up bonds from the more troubled economies. China is about to flex its muscles and there are more than a few in Europe ready to bite their hand off. Either way, America will suffer. Chinese investment may halt the slide of the Euro, which will help the Fed, but it will be an expensive exercise now they are not buying US bonds. Who are you going to sell those to?

    #67 - Mild_and_Creamy

    Good Heavens! Amongst all this dross (and the occasional apposite comment) a really intelligent contribution. Keep 'em coming - my goodness we need them.

    #71 - phoenix

    Yes - now look at the cost of that borrowing as between the triple A rated countries (UK, France and Germany) as against those who are perceived by the markets to have problems.

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  • 77. At 7:25pm on 25 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #74. At 5:46pm on 25 Nov 2010, Pate

    Read all my previous posts you fool, I was an IT consultant employed to customise the Accounting software so it could cope with the dual currency stage. As such I worked with the senior accountants of that central bank. Someone like you has done just what?

    Join the real world and stop proving you are like Walter Mitty.

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  • 78. At 7:30pm on 25 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    74. At 5:46pm on 25 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "So you think that bankers were aloud to steal, cheat and rob so much they can, because the laws were little bit too loose?"

    Isn't this notion of a criminal conspiracy getting a bit tired? Do you not think that prosecuting authorities would not have rounded them up and charged them if there was evidence. Has it not occurred to you that their greediness has more to do with short-sightedness, over-optimism and sheer stupidity than anything else?

    Where I come from, being stupid is just - well, stupid. But it is not a crime.

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  • 79. At 7:32pm on 25 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #74. At 5:46pm on 25 Nov 2010, Pate

    Without the corrupt incompetent undemocratic politicians appointed by the EU's member states by grace and favour and who take their cut (s) at every opportunity, just how would the banks have been so able to stitch Europe. Ah yes to you is all the Banks, wake up for once!

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  • 80. At 8:14pm on 25 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "77. At 7:25pm on 25 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
    #74. At 5:46pm on 25 Nov 2010, Pate

    Read all my previous posts you fool,"

    Why the hec would I do that, the ones I already red are quite enough you 'smart', heh.

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  • 81. At 8:19pm on 25 Nov 2010, Chris wrote:

    We can discuss this for ever the issue is not the countries the issue is the fact that we still allow bankers to bet with our tax money keep the profits if they win and take the loss if they loose. The facts are simple, Belgium, UK, Greece, Ireland, Spain, Portugal, etc. are not any worse now than they were say 12 months ago. The only way to stop this nonsense is to make betting at the markets casino, not profitable for the gamblers there. The markets have proved time after time that they do not provide stability and that they do help the real economy in any shape of form. We should tax the markets as we tax casinos, they serve the same purpose why treat them differently?

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  • 82. At 8:21pm on 25 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    78. At 7:30pm on 25 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:
    ...Where I come from, being stupid is just - well, stupid. But it is not a crime."

    But it is crime to steal from a stupid person. Are you so stupid that you don't know that. However smart one is it is still illegal to steal. Even from stupid. Thieves should put in jails like Bernie Madoff, the thief.

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  • 83. At 8:31pm on 25 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #71. At 5:22pm on 25 Nov 2010, phoenix wrote:
    "External Debt as % of GDP
    Portugal Next? I think Britain should be very wary. After all who will ride to Britains aid...."


    This topic of UK vulnerability has already been gone over ad infinitum: There is no chance whatoever of the EU's wretchedly inefficient, cumbersome, sterile EUro-zone being able to pass off its ongoing internal-16 fiscal difficulties to the UK.

    Don't think only Portugal, consider Belgium, Italy, Spain, Slovakia, Austria etc. though not necessarily in that order.

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  • 84. At 8:32pm on 25 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "79. At 7:32pm on 25 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
    Without the corrupt incompetent undemocratic politicians appointed by the EU's member states by grace and favour and who take their cut (s) at every opportunity, just how would the banks have been so able to stitch Europe."

    Everybody who is thief should put in to prison. 150 years is a good sentence in moneys so big like here. If politicians are guilty they should go to prison too. But it's not any reason to free bankers. All thieves should put in to prison.

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  • 85. At 8:32pm on 25 Nov 2010, Chris wrote:

    @Buzet23,

    yes some one must wake up! So, its the EU fault that useless politicians in Ireland and Greece through tricks either borrowed directly or indirectly through banks. Nothing to do with national politics? In that case it is also the fault of the EU that Finland, Germany, Lux, etc. are going well at the moment!

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  • 86. At 8:51pm on 25 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #85. At 8:32pm on 25 Nov 2010, ChrisArta

    Easy to answer, the political motivation of the appointed EU politicians depends on where they came from, some had a totally different mind set to others as far as the EU project and Euro are concerned. For some it was the 'ever closer union' and federal EU, for others it is just another more lucrative trough. The second type saw the Euro as a means to a very profitable end for themselves. Which is worse, the fools who set up the Euro in their naive political dreamland or the profiteers who used it to enhance their bank balances.

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  • 87. At 8:57pm on 25 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #82. At 8:21pm on 25 Nov 2010, Pate

    There is an old legal principle, buyer beware, and another saying, a fool and their money are soon parted. The Banks have since their inception profited from both of those two principles, but if you drop yourself in the sh*t remember an old principle, those who appear to be there to rescue you may actually be there to devour you. Talking about jailing them for following the law of the land is amazingly foolish, but if they've broken the law of the land then that's a different matter. You need to concentrate on jailing the politicians as it's them that have almost certainly lived on the precipice.

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  • 88. At 8:58pm on 25 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    82 - Pate

    "Are you so stupid that you don't know that".

    No, and I am utterly fed up with people trading insults because they having nothing better to say. It is not good enough to simply decide that people are thieves and throw them into jail for 150 years. It is first necessary to prove beyond reasonable doubt that they are guilty and it is then incumbent on the court to impose a proportionate sentence. By no stretch of the imagination can 150s be considered proportionate. It is far longer than anyone's projected lifespan. Not to put too fine a point on it, it is barbaric.

    You may think me a fool and I can't say I care very much, but a barbarian I am not. Are you?

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  • 89. At 9:10pm on 25 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #87 - Buzet23

    "You need to concentrate on jailing the politicians . . ."

    Oh, come off it. Until the bubble burst, we were lumbered with a bunch of second rate pollies because anyone with real balls was too preoccupied getting filthy rich to be bothered with public service. If you may politicians criminally liable for the consequences of their decisions, what you will end up with is a bunch of third rate skivvies. The comparison with medics in litigation happy America where the medical profession is simply too scared of malpractice suits to take risks which would save lives comes to mind.

    This is outrageous. In a democracy, we get the politicians we deserve because we vote them into office and we have the ultimate sanction of throwing them out on their ears if they don't cut the mustard. Sadly this is not the case with EU pollies because they are appointed by the people we can hold to account rather than being elected and - pro_EU or not - the sooner we do something about it, the better.

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  • 90. At 10:03pm on 25 Nov 2010, Jukka Rohila wrote:

    This is a little bit off topic, but I just saw this video about the European Union and the formation of the then coming Lisbon Treaty.

    "European leaders this week are to hold a summit that could lead to an anti-American European superstate. Unelected European elites want European nations to hand over what is left of their soverignity to the European Union. Those elites want the European Union to become a superstate that would challenge US global leadership." - Lou Dobbs, CNN

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    While Lou Dobbs later jumped to Fox News, I'm still puzzled that this was in the CNN. I'm also puzzled on is this an exception in the American media or this more of an norm at least in some media in US?

    No wonder why some Americans have a very negative picture about the European Union.

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  • 91. At 10:49pm on 25 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    Buzet - Re:89

    I did not mean that you were outrageous. Just the whole idea of banging people up on a whim.

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  • 92. At 10:57pm on 25 Nov 2010, busby2 wrote:

    Back on topic, Gavin Hewitt wrote "Elections are sure to follow and it is not clear which party or government will oversee this programme. The Irish people may use the ballot box to reject this package".

    The question is therefore whether the programme of cuts will be accepted or rejected by the Irish people. What is the down side if they reject the package for (a) the Irish and (b) the Euro? The EU has been at pains to prevent Ireland from defaulting but what if the Irish don't paly their part in making budgetary cuts?

    In the meantime, I understand that the markets pushed the interest rates on Irish bonds to a record high. Perhas they too were wondering whether the package would be implemented and whether Ireland could keep up interest rate payments even if the the package was implemented.

    If I was an investor in Irish bonds I would be selling them now. Wouldn't you?



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  • 93. At 11:20pm on 25 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    88 threnodio writes:

    "No, and I am utterly fed up with people trading insults because they having nothing better to say."

    These are just a few of his remarks in the last three days:
    "Except maybe for dealing with the certifiably insane. Were you thrown out or did you leave of your own accord."

    "Have you been at the cocktail cabinet again?"
    "What a lot of balls".
    "Depending on you sense of humour, this is either degenerating into something resembling a Whitehall farce or, more likely, a bunch of sociable lemmings inviting all the other creatures to join them for a swim."
    "Now be a good little tree and get back onto topic because any more of this junk and I will certainly start referring you."
    "I didn´t write the article -- Mr. Hewitt did !" - My Aunt Fanny.
    "Can't possibly argue with that - at least not without coming down to your level, which I have no intention of doing"

    He likes to dish it out but can't take it himself!

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  • 94. At 11:51pm on 25 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #93 - margaret howard

    Oh no, Margaret.

    I am just so fed up with the amount of abuse that has been hurled at me in the last few weeks that I am giving as good as I get. Now, before this really gets out of hand and if you really do have nothing better to do than trawl back though previous threads to copy old quotes to here, why don't you go back and see to whom almost all those remarks were addressed and read the posts to which I was responding. I think you will find that what I say about giving as good as I get has more than a ring of truth about it.

    While we are on the subject of trawling backwards, care to name your source of the German info now?

    Now please can we stop this?

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  • 95. At 00:13am on 26 Nov 2010, MaudDib wrote:

    58. bbony

    While reading your post I thought of this old story.

    A fox moving through the forest came upon a bird in a bush. As the bird began to fly away from the danger the fox sat down and began calling out.

    "Please don't fly away for you are the most beautiful creature I have ever seen. Would you please give me one of your beautiful feathers for I have none and you have many."

    The bird (a she) having been so flattered pulled a feather and dropped it to the fox. As the fox continued to shower her with praise she gave more and more of her feathers to the fox until she had no more feathers.

    The fox smiled broadly and thanked her for her feathers and declared his intention of having her for dinner. The frightened bird attempted to fly away only to fall into the waiting jaws of the fox.

    Now, the moral of this story is ...........

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  • 96. At 01:34am on 26 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Thank you, Threnodio II,

    I really only know so much. But, its true the blame game is not that much fun. And I agree, that if Marcus were here,

    He'd say, Quit being so mean to each other. Can't we just get along???

    Yes, Powermeerkat, I don't even know, just curious about the Chinese buying of t-bonds, because they are always saying "we own you" on the Economist blog.

    :))

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  • 97. At 01:47am on 26 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Oh great story, MaubDib, who is the fox? and who is the bird? Is that the point? Not knowing? I'm very literal:)

    Happy Thanksgiving

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  • 98. At 01:59am on 26 Nov 2010, Curt Carpenter wrote:

    The notion that a low corporate tax rate is a cornerstone of Ireland's industrial policy is surely defensible -- but wouldn't it still be as much of a cornerstone at 14.5% as it is at 12.5%? Would the Celtic Tiger's competitive advantage be _that much_ damaged by a modest rise in the corporate tax rate?

    I don't doubt that the people of Ireland will tolerate austerity to meet their country's obligations -- but they will rightly demand -equitable- austerity, with the burden shared across the whole of the country's economy. And corporations share in that economy more than most.

    Surely Aristotle's dictum of "all things in moderation" can be applied to even something as dull as a corporate tax rate.



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  • 99. At 03:24am on 26 Nov 2010, MaudDib wrote:

    97. David

    Bottom line. Most of the time people loose their rights a little at a time. Not in one fail swoop. By the time they know what is happening it is to late. You can see how that happened in Germany under the hand of Hitler. You can see the same thing happening to Venezuela under Chavez.

    There are many birds and many foxes. People in ever country need to keep vigil. That includes America. What rights if any should we give up for the so-called greater good? Not many I hope, you know slippery slope and all.

    Will Ireland still be able to fly if it gives all it feathers to the EU?

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  • 100. At 05:13am on 26 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    ty

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  • 101. At 08:30am on 26 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "88. At 8:58pm on 25 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:
    ...By no stretch of the imagination can 150s be considered proportionate. It is far longer than anyone's projected lifespan. Not to put too fine a point on it, it is barbaric.

    You may think me a fool and I can't say I care very much, but a barbarian I am not. Are you?"

    Well that's American justice and sends good message; thou shall not steal. But do you think that when Bernie Madoff cheated hundred of thousands of peoples pensions, was that barbaric. I think it was. Now they must work to their graves without retirement, barbaric.

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  • 102. At 08:45am on 26 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #89. At 9:10pm on 25 Nov 2010, threnodio_II

    My comment on jailing the politicians is that despite the exposure of their expense tricks in the UK only four actually got truly investigated, even Bliar with his gongs for cash managed to escape a court case. In Browns case it was he that organised the buy-out by Lloyds that resulted in Lloyds needing to be bailed-out by the UK government. In Belgium the Belgian government bailed out three banks I believe, one, Fortis, was bought by the government (politicians) and then sold on at a loss to Paribas.

    This is why I tend to favour making politicians responsible for the results of their actions, after all Accountants, Doctors, the Legal Profession and Architects are legally responsible plus certain other trades, why not politicians also since they hold our lives in their hands.

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  • 103. At 09:18am on 26 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    94 threnodio writes:
    "...to copy old quotes to here.."

    As I said they were all written in the last three days.
    And:
    "care to name your source of the German info now?"

    They are available to all in exactly the same way I got them - if you feel they are that important, just keep trying.



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  • 104. At 09:22am on 26 Nov 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #67 Mild_and_Creamy

    I believe you are not strictly correct . As I understand the commission makes the propositions and sets the rules . National governments and the European Parliament are asked to discuss and approve them .

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  • 105. At 09:41am on 26 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Margaret Howard

    Re #93

    Your defence of the likes of QOT exposes a lack of commonsense on Your part.

    Seriously Margaret, have You been reading the recent 'serfdom', 'feudalism' stuff, or the previous bits about 'ignorant English', his demands for an 'answer'/'explanation' of Mr Hewitt's articles...
    It's just absolute dross from start to end.

    Then again, You do Yourself no favours on the previous Blog, instantly leaping to back-up the greek for telling the UK to get out of Gibraltar & Cyprus bases!?'
    What is that all about?
    Gibraltar's population overwhelmingly voted in 2002 to retain 'Overseas Territory' status: Yet, You would deny them the same Rights as You lambast the English for not giving the Scots!!! And why, why because the greek said it and he's against the 'english, so he must be right!?

    I'd be interested to know Your stance on the Falklands: If Your support of Brits out of Gib! is anything to go by then Argentina can walk-in tomorrow and sod the Rights of the Falkland Islanders.

    My, my, what a magnificent 'democrat' You are - - defending Comments that accuse the British (do You realise, You are 1 of the 'serfs' he's berating!?) of living in a feudal society, blindly attacking the Human Rights of Girbraltarians, sledging UK Society for its support of its Military, adopting 'it aint us guv' for Scotland's part in the UK 'Imperial' past...

    And to think You challenged DemocThreat on the meaning of 'Democracy' in a previous blog! With Your uniquely personal approach to People's rights & responsibilities I suspect even DT will have been non-plussed at Your incredulous principles!

    Margaret, (as I' & others have remarked before) the most objectionable part of Your comments is a devasting prejudicial view that enables You to support anyone that "..dishes it out..", so long as its the English getting it whether fair or foul.

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  • 106. At 10:29am on 26 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #99. 26 Nov 2010, MaudDib writes:

    Will Ireland still be able to fly if it gives all it feathers to the EU?"


    No! Never again!
    Come on that much is absolutely clear.

    There isn't a chance of the 'celtic tiger' returning once it is under the cast-iron, straitjecket control of the EU-Brussels entity.
    EU-Brussels regulation is the Economic stifling equivalent of the Soviet Kremlin 'Party' line of old.

    It is amazing really: Whilst for post-1989 years Asia, the Pacific rim, most of the American continent, and even a few Africa nations experienced really fast growth most of the EU membership happily scraped along on less than 3% and usually under 2% annual growth. Even that growth was mostly stimulated by the alleged 'expansion' to East EUrope which the historical Economic record now reveals was how the EU claimed any 'significant 'growth' at all.

    Take out the new Eastern members recovery from a very low level after years of stagnation under communism and the EU-West's overall Economic record barely approaches a progressive trend. I include the likes of Finland, Estonia etc. who actually enormously benefited from the impact of a 'capitalist' based Russia (i.e. the EU's contribution whilst significant is only about equal of Russia for the Baltic States).

    EU-Brussels 'one-size-fits-all', unyielding blanket centralisation is a dead-weight on the Economic-entrepreneurial tiller.

    Ireland has all too briefly seen the best years: It should slowly recover from the effects of the World Banking crisis.
    However, it will never escape the doldrums in full measure so long as it enables Brussels to determine its Economic-Fiscal policies.

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  • 107. At 11:10am on 26 Nov 2010, mr kg wrote:

    when you make a mess of your affairs it is up to you to solve that mess. Ireland has made it self an expensive uncompetitive place.
    in my mind the budget does not attack the huge issue of public sector salaries which were allowed to grow to unsustainable levels by B Ahern in a blatant ruse to buy votes and appease trade unions over the years of his tenure. We simply cannot afford to spend €60b while taking in €40b in tax revenue. it is elementary economics. Public sector salaries need to be slashed by 10 to 20%. Social welfare rates also need to be slashed further. we are paying levels of welfare that encourage welfare tourism and make it more attractive to sit at home watching tv rather than accept work. i had hoped the IMF would force us to address these issues but it seems the government has been allowed to get off the hook in many ways.
    we are a tiny freabite sized bankrupt island on the edge of the atlantic that spent years lecturing other countries on how to run an economy. in reality it was one gigantic pyramid scheme fueled by cheap credit. How the rest of the world must be laughing at our self inflected misfortune.
    The four year plan does not even come close to addressing our problems. i hope the IMP reject the four year plan and impose their own. our politicians clearly are incapable of governing us.

    If Queen Elizabeth does actually visit our rain sozzled island next year i suggest we apologise humbly for the last 90 years and ask if She would kindly take us back into the fold where we would at least have a chance of being governed by people who know what they are doing !!

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  • 108. At 11:28am on 26 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    The euro has fallen again as fears that the Irish debt crisis may spread to other European economies continue to grip currency markets.

    The euro fell one cent against the dollar in early trading to $1.3265. It has now fallen by almost four cents, or 3%, this week.

    The Portuguese parliament is voting later on billions of euros of proposed austerity measures.

    Many commentators say Portugal will be next in line for a bail-out.

    Reports in the Financial Times Deutschland suggest that some eurozone countries and the European Central Bank are putting pressure on the country to ask for financial assistance. (BBC Business)


    In the meantime the rain in Spain comes mainly in the plain.

    However, the Portuguese government said the reports were "completely false".

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  • 109. At 11:52am on 26 Nov 2010, peevedoff wrote:

    Why why why are we the ordinary people paying the price still for dirty Banking?Take the money from the Banks,No bonuses what so ever until this mess is sorted out.If all the countries in debt because of the Banks done this they would have no where to run with their pathetic threats of taking their business overseas.That threat is totally lame if all stick together and even if they do attempt it they would have to relocate their entire business and its overpaid staff overseas.....highly unlikely i would say.We need to start punishing these creatures because they are the real enemy and all our venom should be directed at them not at public service cut backs.I am doing my little bit as is my family.We refuse to let these banks have the priviledge of holding our money so we draw it all out.We are not getting any interest anymore so why let them have it?Take it out and sit on it somewhere safe.Atleast if you wake up one morning and the whole worlds economy has collapsed(not so impossible).You will have enough money to stock up on food for a long period of misery.

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  • 110. At 12:08pm on 26 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #103 - margaret howard

    Every reference I could find in the first six pages of Google confirmed what I posted including Wikipedia, the EU website and the German statistical office. Now a public spirited person, when they encounter disinformation on a website would politely suggest they correct it. But not you. Oh, no - you just keep recycling it and refusing to tell us where you found it. Well that's fine but if you seriously expect me to trawl through pages of data simply to tell them they are wrong. you are very much mistaken.

    Now as far as I am concerned, this exchange is at an end.

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  • 111. At 12:18pm on 26 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #108 - powermeerkat

    "However, the Portuguese government said the reports were "completely false"."

    I swear I have heard that before. Dublin wasn't? About three weeks ago?

    However, this is a new tactic by the EU and ECB - pressuring some countries to ask for help. It happen in Ireland and now, we are told, Portugal. Would it be cynical to suggest that this 'pressure' is intended to present an opportunity to impose conditions and further centralise the whole process?

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  • 112. At 12:25pm on 26 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 113. At 12:38pm on 26 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #112 - quietoaktree

    CBW stated quite clearly in an earlier post that he has never referred anyone for anything. I can confirm that this is also my position. Not that I am under any obligation to answer that question

    "Then he attempted to get a boycott of a topic because I posted first ????

    --- If that was´nt enough, it appears he tried to get likeminded over to another blog."

    I have no idea what you are talking about. Not only have I never tried to do any such thing but there is no mechanism for doing so anyway.

    And the final sentence is precisely the kind of worthless garbage that makes others angry and is simply a waste of web columns.

    This exchange is now at an end. Intelligent on topic remarks I may respond to. But further insults will result in my breaking the habits of a lifetime and starting to use the 'complain' link.

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  • 114. At 12:42pm on 26 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    110. At 12:08pm on 26 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    Re #103 - margaret howard"


    You are quite right not to hold Your breath for any admission of any error or fault from the 'lady'.

    I'm reminded of her contributions in support of Ellinas about everything originating with Greek antiquity: In her rush to condemn the 'British/English' (yes, she did at least concede there were a sub-species of Britons) some thousands of years ago she railed against their "..pagan... druid.." worship etc. as the epitome of ignorance whilst Geece basked in 'civilised' life.

    When I pointed out this 'civilised' life involved 'slavery' & more to the point the 'worship of Gods on Mount Olympus' and therefore only an another advanced form of 'paganism' the dear 'lady' couldn't bring herself to admit anything of the sort.

    Similarly of course with a certain historic flower of Flanders field: Total denial by the 'lady' of belittling a charitable activity and when direct Quotation of the view is provided there is the deafening silence!

    See, UK MPs Expenses scandal (previous blog) revelations & the total refusal of EU MEPs to reveal their Expenses - - not a word on the scandalous lack of democratic transparency in Brussels - - despite the UK Parliament addressing the whole matter it gets lambasted for the fact it was made to deal with it!

    See, the reference to Gibraltar & UK bases (this & previous blog) - - resolute proponent of 'democracy' - - until the opportunity arises for another misdirected dig at the 'imperial' legacy.

    The 'lady' just keeps right on - - e.g. QOT and the greek being such incredibly reliable contributors - - their & her neutrality is spotless. Honestly, I couldn't make-it-up in the 3yrs on this web-site!

    And all for what?

    Well, it isn't anything to do with the 'English': We know this because we have the word of the 'lady'!



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  • 115. At 12:49pm on 26 Nov 2010, Benefactor wrote:

    111. At 12:18pm on 26 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    --"Would it be cynical to suggest that this 'pressure' is intended to present an opportunity to impose conditions and further centralise the whole process?"--

    Yes.

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  • 116. At 12:56pm on 26 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #115 - Benefactor

    Fair enough.

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  • 117. At 1:03pm on 26 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #112. At 12:25pm on 26 Nov 2010, quietoaktree writes:
    #93 Margaret Howard

    "Some of my recent postings have been removed long after publication -- Both Threnodio and side-kick CBW remain honorably and discretionally silent ! "



    You sir are nothing but a common scoundrel & purveyor of falsehoods.

    I refer You to the blog for 'The Irish fall-out' on 24th November. At #182 at 3.42pm on 24th November 2010 I wrote the following in respinse to Your totally unfounded accusation:

    'TO REPEAT FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME I HAVE NEVER & WOULD NEVER REFER/COMPLAIN TO MODS ABOUT YOUR'S OR ANY OF THE ANTI-ENGLISH TROUPE COMMENTS.'

    Aware of Your extreme difficulty with comprehension I wrote that #182 contribution in BLOCK LETTERING in the hope that given a slow read & some hours of consideration by You the words might be UNDERSTOOD.

    Obviously it was a false hope.

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  • 118. At 1:03pm on 26 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 119. At 1:08pm on 26 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #112. At 12:25pm on 26 Nov 2010, quietoaktree

    Just to clarify my position, neither have I ever referred anyone for moderation, but someone is doing it since several of my recent posts got removed. Me thinks it is something slimy that has crawled out of the primeval sludge and considers itself clever in some way, maybe that's why many of us with different views are getting posts removed so as too suspect each other.

    Hint to the moderators, publish the username of the complainant, either on the website or the e-mail.

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  • 120. At 1:14pm on 26 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #111. At 12:18pm on 26 Nov 2010, threnodio_II

    Are you suggesting that the EU and ECB mandarins are trying to be even more stealthier and slippery than ever, if this is indeed being used as a means of introducing central control over Sovereign member states then the sooner it is exposed the better. It'll will be interesting to see whether the Irish pass their budget, if not then stealth control should not be implemented (we'll see).

    It has all the hallmarks of a terminally desperate organisation that is trying to cling to power at all costs no matter what the damage to those it claims to represent. Funny, that seems to remind me of a certain Gordon McClown a few months back.

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  • 121. At 1:20pm on 26 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #113 Threnodio


    62. At 10:16pm on 22 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:
    #55 - quietoaktree

    In the highly improbable event of my having any aunts still alive, they will be far too old to be earning a living in a horizontal position and far too frail to be in any other position.

    Now be a good little tree and get back onto topic because any more of this junk and I will certainly start referring you.

    -----ANOTHER APOLOGY TO ALL !!!!

    Will you please inform us when you tell the truth !!!

    --- it will make life easier for you .


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  • 122. At 1:26pm on 26 Nov 2010, ghostofsichuan wrote:

    I am sure everyone will brighten up when the end of the year banking bonuses are announced...or will the media not cover those stories in the interest of maintaining public order.
    Isn't free market capitalism great....private sector free of all consequences as the elected mandate that the public pay for their gambling..facilitated by the very governments that will now tax the people to cover their mistakes.
    The corporate state is in charge as we continue to pretend that elected governments represent the will of the people.

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  • 123. At 1:37pm on 26 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #118, 121 - quietoaktree

    I am utterly sick of this. Yes I posted "I notice that QOT got in first on the next thread with the customary garbage". That is what I considered it to be. What does my opinion have to do with boycotting anyone?

    As to your second post, you published something on the same blog with words to the effect that my Auntie would be working in a horizontal position and then something about "over the hill". It was so offensive that someone (not me) referred you and it was removed. The passage you quote was my response.

    Now please, this has gone on long enough. Let's call a halt right now.

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  • 124. At 1:39pm on 26 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #119 Buzet 23

    -- There is a difference when yours are justifiably removed.

    -- double-check your side-kicks !

    -your description fits them.

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  • 125. At 1:57pm on 26 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Threnodio

    Me slimy ?

    -- YOU FORGOT A SENTENCE !!!

    ---118. At 1:03pm on 26 Nov 2010, you wrote:
    #113 Threnodio

    204. At 11:36pm on 20 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:
    I notice that QOT got in first on the next thread with the customary garbage.

    Anyone fancy a boycott?

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  • 126. At 2:37pm on 26 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #125. At 1:57pm on 26 Nov 2010, quietoaktree writes:

    "Anyone fancy a boycott?"



    Your #24, 27, 70, 112, 118, 121, 124, 125 continued Your eminent trait of nobody giving a stuff what You write as You never contribute anything anyone but Margaret considers a genuine comment.

    Were the 'powers-that-be' ever to seriously consider seeking grounds to pull the plug on the Internet they need look no further than Your contributions over the years for more than adequate grounds: I.e. utter, trivialising dross.



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  • 127. At 2:38pm on 26 Nov 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    Ireland has been heavily pressured into having an EU bailout . She too hotly denied that any approaches or pressure was being put on her to accept a bailout . Now we hear reports , hotly denied , that Portugal is coming under pressure to seek help to have a bailout . Who can one believe in Europe today ; they are ALL incompetents and liars . the truth is anyones guess . Generally what is hotly denied , then happens .

    I can understand that Ireland which has benefitted as a member of the EU and Eurozone may feel a moral obligation to accept a bailout to save the Euro and the EU . The EU doesn't have a thought for the welfare of a member state as long as it doesn't detract from the ongoing momentum of the EU ; so why should member states worry about the EU .

    It is my belief ; firstly that the EU should not have approached Ireland to offer a bailout , without Ireland first asking for it . The EU has triggered a panic in the Eurozone , the reverberations of which are having just the effect that they were trying to avoid , namely Portugal needing a bailout too . Is this the beginning of a domino effect , brought about by gittery EU nerves ?

    I have little doubt that Ireland should look after her own interests , refuse the bailout and default , restructure as best she can . The bailout will only add a further burden to the existing debt ; it is doubtful whether Ireland can achieve sufficient growth to pay off such debts ; that default may in the end still be the only conclusion , but leaving them in a worse situation than by doing it now .

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  • 128. At 3:23pm on 26 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    CBW

    --At least our contributions are not slimy

    Threnodio doesn´t need your help to protect his untruths and weathervane directions --you are adequate enough at the art of bowing.

    That it seems is still the main difference between non-thinking British nationalists and the others !

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  • 129. At 3:31pm on 26 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    127. At 2:38pm on 26 Nov 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    "It is my belief ; firstly that the EU should not have approached Ireland to offer a bailout , without Ireland first asking for it . The EU has triggered a panic in the Eurozone , the reverberations of which are having just the effect that they were trying to avoid , namely Portugal needing a bailout too . Is this the beginning of a domino effect , brought about by gittery EU nerves ?"



    Totally accurate: It is the EU that is the cause of the 'market' jitters.

    Doubtless, the 'pro-EU will rush in to explain how it is all the fault of 'speculators' in the USA & UK!

    All together, "EU is good! All else is bad!"

    And so the stagnating supra-National circus gathers pace.

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  • 130. At 3:56pm on 26 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #127 Huaimek

    -- And when did Britain consider its position with Ireland ?

    -- complaints from the Brits on this blog began with the British Irish help --- blame Ireland, Cameron and British banks and reality for Britain´s vulnerability if Ireland goes down.

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  • 131. At 4:00pm on 26 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 132. At 4:31pm on 26 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #131 CBW

    -- G----------------------------W

    Must you always repeat your childish comments ---and prove my point ?

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  • 133. At 5:05pm on 26 Nov 2010, reincarnation wrote:

    This used to be a fairly civilised site. It seems to have gone downhill :-(

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  • 134. At 5:14pm on 26 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 135. At 5:50pm on 26 Nov 2010, Wonthillian wrote:

    Funny how people keep predicting the imminent demise of the Euro. The Euro /dollar rate is about the same as it was six months ago, and roughly halfway between the high and low points over the last twelve months. I seem to recall at beginning of the year there were people on this blog (who shall remain nameless for fear of embarrassment) who were predicting either a complete break-up, or Euro parity with the dollar by about now. Just wishful thinking on their part.

    A stable Euro is in the interests of the UK , even if the UK isn’t part of it.

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  • 136. At 6:40pm on 26 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    113 threnodio writes:

    "CBW stated quite clearly in an earlier post that he has never referred anyone for anything"

    CBW 24 Nov The Irish Fallout:

    "I have complained TWICE: 1) A reference to the Soham murdeer I felt was totally uncalled for. AND 2) A repeat Holocaust Denier I also felt was totally unacceptable"

    He then writes at 110 to me:
    "Now as far as I am concerned, this exchange is at an end."
    And again at 123 to QOT:
    "Now please, this has gone on long enough. Let's call a halt right now."

    Says it all!

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  • 137. At 6:44pm on 26 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #133 - reincarnation

    I could not agree more.

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  • 138. At 7:01pm on 26 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    117 CBW writes:

    "'TO REPEAT FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME I HAVE NEVER & WOULD NEVER REFER/COMPLAIN TO MODS ABOUT YOUR'S OR ANY OF THE ANTI-ENGLISH TROUPE COMMENTS.'
    Aware of Your extreme difficulty with comprehension I wrote that #182 contribution in BLOCK LETTERING in the hope that given a slow read & some hours of consideration by You the words might be UNDERSTOOD."

    24 Nov 'The Irish Fallout':
    I have complained TWICE: 1) A reference to the Soham murdeer I felt was totally uncalled for. AND 2) A repeat Holocaust Denier I also felt was totally unacceptable

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  • 139. At 7:07pm on 26 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    113 threnodio writes:

    "CBW stated quite clearly in an earlier post that he has never referred anyone for anything. I can confirm that this is also my position. Not that I am under any obligation to answer that question"
    CBW 24 Nov writes:
    "I have complained TWICE: 1) A reference to the Soham murdeer I felt was totally uncalled for. AND 2) A repeat Holocaust Denier I also felt was totally unacceptable."



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  • 140. At 7:10pm on 26 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #130 - quietoaktree

    "And when did Britain consider its position with Ireland ? - blame Ireland, Cameron and British banks and reality for Britain´s vulnerability if Ireland goes down".

    Well at least we are back on topic. The answer to your first question is obviously very recently. No one in their right mind is going to dip their hands into the national coffers for 8 billion just to be matey. The British would not have made their position public if they had anticipated a flat rejection and the Irish will have been fully engaged in discussions.

    You then go on to horrible generalisations? Blame Ireland? Who? What? The Irish Government? The National Bank? Irish Society at large? Why not throw in the Catholic Religion, the susceptibility of potatoes to blight?

    What exactly do you mean by blaming Ireland?

    The vast majority of adult Irish people are good honest working folk. Sadly, as a result of the current crisis, there will be fewer in work. But you seem to think it is OK to pass blanket blame onto an entire nation.

    Cameron? Again please explain the relevance. Did Cameron at some time unbeknown to the rest of us, run the Irish economy?

    From hereon in you have a point. Yes, British banks are exposed to a potential Irish meltdown and it follows that the British have a vested interest in trying to prevent this happening. I do not think any reasonable person would argue that this is purely altruistic.

    Britain's vulnerability if Ireland goes down? There are various ways of measuring the extent of the exposure but the information I have is that roughly 6% of the market is between the UK and Ireland. It would be painful for both sides were it to be lost but not fatal. And you do continue to avoid my question of how on earth an economy which, in your view, is in terminal decline, can come up with 8 billion in liquid assets to help out Ireland.

    (This has nothing to do with our earlier exchanges. This is a serious response to a serious post).

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  • 141. At 7:21pm on 26 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #136 - margaret howard

    Maybe the distinction between referring and complaining is a bit grey but CBWs point is fair and he is more than capable of speaking for himself.

    However, you have chosen to take issue with me again. I can only say that I have nothing further to say to you on this or any other subject - unless of course you start revealing your sources.

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  • 142. At 7:29pm on 26 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    Now that you all have your little differences shorted out we can all agree that Euro is the safety net for Europe. Worlds economy has grown bigger and harder. Dollar is in big trouble and Yuan is coming strong. Euro is still much stronger than dollar: 1 U.S. dollar = 0.756715853 Euros. USA:s target was years ago that dollar is to be over Euro. Not in real world. Euro is the one to be trusted.

    Euro can make the good trade deals with Yuan and Dollar. Not Dollar for european countries nor Pound for anybody. And Pound is no help fore Ireland, Euro is.

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  • 143. At 7:31pm on 26 Nov 2010, Mathiasen wrote:

    Off topice: Since this is an European blog I'd like draw the attention to news that Russia's lower house of parliament now condemns Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin for ordering the mass killing of Poles at Katyn.
    It is not only in Poland that a sigh of relief can be heard after this.

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  • 144. At 7:38pm on 26 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "119. At 1:08pm on 26 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
    Just to clarify my position, neither have I ever referred anyone for moderation, but someone is doing it since several of my recent posts got removed."

    Usually this happens when you start repeating yourself. Same old opinions in same old manner and little insults to go.

    I don't really know this because I have been here just couple of days. But my task here is to offer different opinion.

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  • 145. At 7:46pm on 26 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 146. At 7:55pm on 26 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #142 - Pate

    This would be very interesting if it were true. In fact, the dollar has appreciated from a little under 1.35 to a little under 1.35 in three days. Now this may be marginal in your terms but it will not have gone unnoticed in Ben Bernakes's office. It is the last thing he wanted.

    The Eur is not a cure for the common cold, the manifestation of God on earth or the answer to the meaning of life. It is a piece of paper and, like everything else, it's only true value is what someone is prepared to pay you for it. I happen to believe in the project (in spite of mounting evidence against it) but we do nobody any favours by elevating it to the level of an article of faith. It is a currency - nothing more, nothing less.

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  • 147. At 8:00pm on 26 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Mathiasen

    re #143 & Katyn Massacre

    Totally agree: Well after time for modern Russia to accept its Soviet's dreadful role in the war crime.

    Clearing Nazi Germany's name in this episode is a small matter compared to its heinous record: However, an impartial History must reflect accurately the proven evidence/record if it is to be accepted by all 'sides'.

    It is a piece of 'revisionist' History we should all be willing to acknowledge.

    The 'revision' is made and doubtless the Russian Duma came to its painful, but ultimately correct decision based on the now widely accepted substantiated film archive, verified documentation & personal accounts from the episode.

    It is in stark historian & ethical contrast to so many of the utterly unsubstantiated, unverified assertions by some on this blog who seek to rewrite the whole History of the military conflicts in the first half of the 20th Century.

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  • 148. At 8:03pm on 26 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "127. At 2:38pm on 26 Nov 2010, Huaimek wrote:
    ...The EU has triggered a panic in the Eurozone , the reverberations of which are having just the effect that they were trying to avoid , namely Portugal needing a bailout too . Is this the beginning of a domino effect"

    The triggers are more like currency speculators like George Soros and like the big bank Goldman Sachs, The Bank with no conscience but proven computer programs to manipulate markets. And they are here today. With their billions to make hundred of billions. And europeans taxpayers will pay their profits if euro fails.

    Against these we need strong Euro and strong commercial partner like Yuan and, and pls. do Dollar get strong again and make our day.

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  • 149. At 8:04pm on 26 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    112 QOT writes:
    "...and please don´t forget the brave Threnodio threatened to have my postings removed if my replies were NOT to his liking !
    He has still NOT replied as to whether he did or not !"

    And yet at 191 'The Irish Fallout' threnodio has the nerve to write:

    "Why you would wish to do so and be so defensive about it as to see fit to refer an earlier comment because I was vaguely sarcastic is beyond me. That the mods saw fit to uphold the complaint is nothing short of staggering. Anyway, there is not a thing that could offend anyone in this post. Now answer the question please."

    My request for an apology has so far gone unheeded and I'm not holding my breath.
    Have just read his 141
    "Maybe the distinction between referring and complaining is a bit grey ..."
    I bet it is - we seem to be dealing with a very confused 'gentleman'

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  • 150. At 8:07pm on 26 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #146 Typo at 106 above - 1.35 to 1.35. Apologies.

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  • 151. At 8:08pm on 26 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    Sorry, it's my keyboard. 1.35 - 1.36 (again, apologies).

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  • 152. At 8:14pm on 26 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "146. At 7:55pm on 26 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:
    In fact, the dollar has appreciated from a little under 1.35 to a little under 1.35 in three days."

    Wake me up when dollar is one point over Euro. Like 1.00001.


    "The Eur...It is a piece of paper...nothing more, nothing less."

    So is Yuan and so is Dollar, a piece of paper.

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  • 153. At 8:21pm on 26 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 154. At 8:31pm on 26 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 155. At 8:32pm on 26 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 156. At 8:34pm on 26 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #144. At 7:38pm on 26 Nov 2010, Pate

    Look at own posts, why do you seriously think we are fed up with repetitious stuff about a system that has failed and is continuing to fail even more especially when you keep on saying that despite the medicine having failed keep on taking it. Most would understand if it is failing then it don't work, yet with you it's 'ever closer union. ' 'the Euro is the saviour', the system is corrupt, decrepit and fatally flawed, got it by now?

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  • 157. At 8:36pm on 26 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #149. At 8:04pm on 26 Nov 2010, margaret howard

    Just go and find something that pleases your English husband and children (if you have them), if that is possible.

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  • 158. At 8:51pm on 26 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    144 pate replied to buzet:
    "Usually this happens when you start repeating yourself. Same old opinions in same old manner and little insults to go.
    I don't really know this because I have been here just couple of days. But my task here is to offer different opinion."

    And you are very welcome, we can do with it. He hasn't yet said anything new for ages, the same old opinions, denials and insults. Be prepared! However, there are other more interesting people here so stay with it.

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  • 159. At 9:10pm on 26 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    threnodio & mathiasen

    Re #143, 147 & 153

    Hear, hear. Germany is a credit to modern Europe.

    Similarly G.B. has done its fair share of acknowldeging past wrongs, but I do recognise Germany has gone farther than any European nation in exposing the last century's misdeeds and attempting to redress those aspects within its power to do so.

    From the sound of it the Russian 'Duma' too has just taken an important step along that ethical path.

    Perhaps the use of 'film' archive (ironically, it was the Nazi penchant for boastfully recording so much of their misdeeds - - early 'celebrity' mania!?) has made this easier (wrong word - - perhaps, made it more passable/tolerable) to the generations that followed the 'Nazi' regime; and, I also feel the partition of Germany contributed as it was a very physical reminder which I imagine would have led any German schoolchild at some stage to have asked, 'Why?'.

    In the case of Katyn of course it was the Nazi regime actually filming their discovery of a brutal crime by the Soviets - - but, unsurprisingly, given their bestial record & the Soviet 'denial' cover-up, plus US-UK not wanting to rock-the-Allied-boat during WW2, followed by Cold War - - it took many years for the factual reality to emerge.

    As You say and as Mathiasen at times indicates, modern Germany is a fine example of a 'Democracy' and certainly one of the more reliable ones in post-Maastricht EUrope. At least this is 1 infamous item off their blotted copy-book.
    There are areas of its 'East/DDR' past that have been somewhat brushed aside, but then so has the UK with Ireland, France with Algeria, France with Rwanda, Spain in the Sahara etc.

    Wrote before: Casting the first stone with so many glasshouses about is a very dodgy pastime. Only the tragically prejudiced on this blog seem never to grasp that tiny, but key principle whenever considering any sort of comment.

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  • 160. At 9:24pm on 26 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 161. At 9:24pm on 26 Nov 2010, lochraven wrote:

    There are posters here, in this food fight, that should be ashamed of themselves.

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  • 162. At 9:28pm on 26 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    # 140 Threnodio

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE6AG22L20101117

    There is enough blame to go around --all those I mentioned (except Cameron personally I presume). the personal debt (per capita) list is --Ireland, UK and USA in that order.

    The printing presses will manage the 8 billion --- as a loan.

    The UK industrial base has gone --the pride was (and still is) Banking --but not for the citizens left with the bill.

    The numbers concerning UK debt have already been posted 400% ? --that sure must have been a party ?

    ---Swissair and some Sub-crimes had AAA ratings and the printing presses of USA and UK are not comparable-- some are lucky that bankruptcy nowadays is accepted as not being able to pay interest payments.

    Without going down the devaluation spiral, life for normal UK citizens will be a horror --but of course the City Banks can ask for $ or Euros instead of Pounds for fees.

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  • 163. At 9:37pm on 26 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

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  • 164. At 9:46pm on 26 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

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  • 165. At 9:49pm on 26 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #161 - lochraven wrote:

    "There are posters here, in this food fight, that should be ashamed of themselves".

    There are posters here who are. I have repeatedly suggested that we should back off. I for one have unilaterally withdrawn.

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  • 166. At 10:02pm on 26 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #162 - quietoaktree

    There is a lit of truth in what you say although I on't quite grasp the relevance of Swissair.

    The value of the pound sterling is, of course, dictated by the markets though no one doubts the power of the BoE to intervene if required. In the current climate in which QE has become so fashionable, I equally do not doubt that printing 8 billion would not be beyond them but, without something behind it, it is not worth the paper it is printed on. But that is another question.

    But my question was quite specific. You said the Irish were to blame. So - the Irish what - the government, the state, the people, the banks, the establishment, the political classes, economic academia - who? Who is to blame?

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  • 167. At 10:05pm on 26 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    quiet oak about Germans in Katyn murder Russians never thought :o))))))) I am afraid, neither not a single one who I read today mentioned the word Germany or Germans we plain aren't interested or forgot about this side, that it is German credibility issue as well, we don't think of Germany altogether :o)))))

    view it as our issue, and, how to say, what Germans do "confess" "recognise" "not confess" "not recognise" - is their business (while they aren't here)(hurry to add :o)

    The thing is before a thing like Katyn is recognised on behalf of the country by her rulers - it'd be not bad to discuss it a teeny -wheeny :o)))))))) preliminafry with the country itself dont you think.

    well this important step didn't take place ever as all non-KGB historians' calls to get access to the paperwork were fenced off by Kremlin. we trust kgb archivists are no doubt knowledgeable historians degre-ed and full of accomplishments ;o/0000 but how about an independent one, from beyond the industry, laying hands on this paperwork?

    what's so secretively secret about the dear papers that they can't be held in hands by anyone beyond "the industry" these 25 years.

    as powermeer says enquiring minds pan-Russia wish to know ;o))))

    first it starts by one ruler saying "Dear people's Soviet of the USSR, (the 2,000 congregations of regions' deputies) - here is me telling you we did Katyn - here is our rime Minister here standing on the floor by me side - we can't show you the docs it's state secret we are sure you will understand that 'but here are us - the two most leading leaders of the country standing in front of you - and we both saw these docs and we swear we got full explanations and are convinced the discovered file is true - WE ASK YOU TO BELIEVE OUR WORD.

    The People's Soviet gathering quarreled and shouted and enquired each other FOR FIVE HOURS without even leavingb the hall and then voted by the majority of the 2,000 deputies "TO TRUST".

    ? eh?

    and in this style it continues ever after.

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  • 168. At 10:07pm on 26 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 169. At 10:14pm on 26 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #158. At 8:51pm on 26 Nov 2010, margaret howard

    "And you are very welcome, we can do with it. He hasn't yet said anything new for ages, the same old opinions, denials and insults. Be prepared! However, there are other more interesting people here so stay with it."

    Oh dear, how did you manage to get a day pass today or were the doors of the locked ward left unlocked.

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  • 170. At 10:14pm on 26 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "156. At 8:34pm on 26 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
    ...we are fed up with repetitious stuff about a system that has failed and is continuing to fail even more especially when you keep on saying that despite the medicine having failed keep on taking it."

    You are from pound country. Your medicine is Pound. That's the wrong medicine. Now we are curing Ireland and there is nothing you can do against it. You, Pound or speculator banks. Ireland will be fine.

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  • 171. At 10:21pm on 26 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 172. At 10:23pm on 26 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 173. At 10:26pm on 26 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    Alice.

    ". . . to discuss it . . . with country itself don't you think".

    NO. Absolutely NOT. It either did or did not happen and no amount of public debate will change that. If we are talking about democracy, the people have the right and duty to judge the present and shape the future. They absolute do NOT have the right to revise the past.

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  • 174. At 10:33pm on 26 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

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  • 175. At 10:36pm on 26 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    "If we are talking about democracy, the people have the right and duty to judge the present and shape the future."

    Echo of Moscow audience agrees with you, threnodio.
    It's "when they are paying for all, they will pay for that as well".

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  • 176. At 10:45pm on 26 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Threnodio

    Swissair-- the rating agencies gave it AAA --then it went bankrupt practically overnight.

    Who is to blame? --all of those you mentioned.

    -Except those few who said early on ´This is crazy´ !

    British banks hold $150 billion of Irish debt

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  • 177. At 10:47pm on 26 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    There seems to be an element of fanaticism appearing within the EU, the Scottish referees are on strike because they say the players do not respect their integrity. Their quality and ability is therefore never to be questioned, I suspect that they are following the lead of the EU and ECB officials who also believe it is an insult punishable by being hung drawn and quartered for anyone who dares question their integrity or ability. Hopefully the EU mandarins will also go on strike, permanently!

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  • 178. At 10:54pm on 26 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    When British government cares to accept, say - any one of Nik's accusations "on behalf of Britain" and "upon the prime Minister word" - "but the documents I can't show you sorry. I trust you understand"
    THEN threnodio we will be able to discuss with you the appropriatness of in-appropriatness of the public debate inside the country.

    I think it's shaky to even do good things based on falsified base.
    If USSR killed Poles in Katyn - the file is not any more.
    It's pregnant with future, to falsify documents. Good intentions pay the road to hell.

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  • 179. At 11:09pm on 26 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #176 - quietoaktree

    "Swissair-- the rating agencies gave it AAA --then it went bankrupt practically overnight".

    Yes - because they were mistakenly led to believe that the Swiss government would underwrite the bad debt and that there was a consortium with the resources to buy it. How wrong can you be?

    "British banks hold $150 billion of Irish debt. Again yes, but how is that Ireland's fault? The British banks were the mugs who bought into it. Actually you have to have some respect for the Irish for successfully selling them a mongrel pub dressed up as a thoroughbred.

    What does Swissair have to do with Ireland?

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  • 180. At 11:12pm on 26 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

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  • 181. At 11:27pm on 26 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

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  • 182. At 11:32pm on 26 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Threodio

    --Only your insinuation that 8 Billion will not break the camels back.

    --Rating agencies ---the same that gave Britain and Swissair AAA !

    --The Irish asked for the $150 billion

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,730796,00.html

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  • 183. At 11:47pm on 26 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    CBW

    --- that was the British in Guantanamo or was it in Ireland ---which did you witness ?

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  • 184. At 00:00am on 27 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #182 - quietoaktree

    I did not insinuate that 8 billion would not break the camel's back. I stated categorically that it will not. How do I know? Because the Treasury and the Bank of England, while living up to required standards of morality, are not totally mad. The offer would not have been made if it was unsustainable. End of story.

    Now I don't doubt that they asked for 150 billion. When did you last apply for a bank loan? What do you do if you need fifty grand? You ask for a hundred grand. You know perfectly well they are going to say no and you probably know that, when the bargaining is over and done with, you will get the fifty grand you wanted all along. It is standard bargaining practice. Nothing sinister about it at all. Only the figures are different.

    You now seem to be equating Swissair with Britain rather than Ireland. Slightly strange shift of argument but the distinction is that Britain has not gone to the wall and still has a triple A rating. And your point is?

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  • 185. At 00:05am on 27 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    172 WebAlice writes re Katyn massacre:
    "Gorbachyov viewed it his honourable duty to get rid of the Communist party.As an evil organisation.(Do you have doubts in that?)

    He needed compromising material on the communist rule as a man lost in the desert needs water - because he had to stand the internal fight with communist party. He need facts and compromising material - to be able to tell people to close the shop - the reasons, the data. To be supported by people in this his drive."

    If you really believe that a man like Gorbachev would implicate his own country (and I have no doubts about his integrity and love of Russia)in such a heinous crime of mass murder on such a scale in such a cold blooded manner just to discredit his predecessors then you need your head examining.
    If you think the rest of the world would believe this claptrap then you are totally misguided and seem to live on another planet.

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  • 186. At 00:28am on 27 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

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  • 187. At 00:31am on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #184 Threnodio

    --- never believe the culprits !

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  • 188. At 00:35am on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

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  • 189. At 00:44am on 27 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    QOT

    I am not being sarcastic and I am not trying to continue our disagreement. This is a serious question.

    When you equate Swissair with the UK, do I understand you to say that, because some credit rating agencies were wrong about a medium sized airline in 2001, it is equally possible that they are wrong about the 6th largest economy (measured by GDP) on the planet in 2010?

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  • 190. At 00:46am on 27 Nov 2010, mike boothroyd wrote:

    Having read through the various blogs for the last few days (RP,SF,GH,NR)
    I've reached the conclusion that I am still perplexed and am not sure how to articulate my thoughts on the issues, but, here goes!

    It appears to me that the EURO is an economic concept driven entirely by political considerations.

    These political considerations allowed EURO rules to be ignored, in the case of certain nations, to facilitate initial membership of the EURO economic club. These political considerations now appear to have blown up in our collective faces.

    The validity of these political considerations may or may not have been flawed, depending on your view of the European Project.

    Personally, I find it hard to disaggregate the arguments about the EC and the EURO.

    It seems to me to be an odd idea to try and create a political and economic unit in Europe, with its thousands of years of history, as a mirror image of the USA with its own relatively short history. The USA is hardly a well tried model is it?

    The USA sub-prime lending model precipitated the current global financial crisis I believe.

    It's just too flipping complicated!!!!

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  • 191. At 00:50am on 27 Nov 2010, reincarnation wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 192. At 00:51am on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 193. At 01:00am on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    "Only those who ordered and participated in the massacre are guilty !

    NOT ordinary citizens."

    ah, quiet oak, we see it differently, another culture.
    and I tend to agree now with cool-brush, if you don't mind will mentally think you are German :o))) Hope it's all the same to you :o).
    Fragmented approach to continuum, that's why.


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  • 194. At 01:02am on 27 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    There are very interesting developments regarding the Irish bail out which might go a ways towards explaining the reason for direct British involvement. It is fully covered in Paul Manson's blog here

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/paulmason/2010/11/ireland_haircut_sir_15_off_eur.html

    It makes for interesting reading

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  • 195. At 01:34am on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 196. At 04:58am on 27 Nov 2010, Mathiasen wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 197. At 08:15am on 27 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Mathiasen wrote:
    Off topice: Since this is an European blog I'd like draw the attention to news that Russia's lower house of parliament now condemns Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin for ordering the mass killing of Poles at Katyn.
    It is not only in Poland that a sigh of relief can be heard after this.





    To be precise: under the pertinent order there are signatures of 3 Politbureau members other than Stalin's.

    [Actually a suggestion to wipe out Polish intelligentsia to leave only a slave labour useful to USSR, was made by Lavrenty Beria.]

    Now, it remains to be seen whether new, improved democratic Russia will finally pay out compensation to families of the murdred.

    [Like Germany did long time ago.]

    And punish those NKVD murderers who are still alive.

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  • 198. At 08:27am on 27 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    (Putin wants to be friends with Poland for gas transfer West, for that matter)(an income matter :o))



    Not really, Alice.


    Gen. Putin has been a chief promoter of the Baltic pipeline to Germany (with a little help from his factotum G. Schroeder) precisely because it would bypass terrority of Poland; a country which Vladimir Vladimirovitchstill consideres hostile to iperial ambitions of Mother Russia.

    And re: Katyn.

    The issue, as many others is not a question of beliefs, but of a a irrefutable EVIDENCE.

    [btw. there are still Auschwitz deniers in this world, so don't
    feel bad]

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  • 199. At 08:38am on 27 Nov 2010, Norman Conquest wrote:

    197. At 08:15am on 27 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Mathiasen wrote:
    Off topice: Since this is an European blog I'd like draw the attention to news that Russia's lower house of parliament now condemns Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin for ordering the mass killing of Poles at Katyn.
    It is not only in Poland that a sigh of relief can be heard after this.





    To be precise: under the pertinent order there are signatures of 3 Politbureau members other than Stalin's.

    [Actually a suggestion to wipe out Polish intelligentsia to leave only a slave labour useful to USSR, was made by Lavrenty Beria.]

    Now, it remains to be seen whether new, improved democratic Russia will finally pay out compensation to families of the murdred.

    [Like Germany did long time ago.]

    And punish those NKVD murderers who are still alive.

    ++++
    And since this is a European blog I would like some attention to be drawn to the fact that maybe it's now time for the Polish to acknowledge at least some of their crimes, which include the murdering of at least 100,000 Ukrainians during the Polish Empire of the 1920-30s ("Poland from Sea to Sea").

    Polish crimes, for example, are highlighted in this youtube movie:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32HBqgQ5NZ8

    By the way on the same youtube channel you can find accounts of German (not just Nazi) crimes during WWII i don't think they apologized for those.

    As regards Katyn, i am not apologizing at all and this apology is not in my name. Those people were career officers, police, landed gentry -- exactly the people implicated in many crimes of the Polish empire, far greater crimes than those of Stalin, they were in the same league with the Nazis and even plotted their European conquests together since at least the time of Polish-German Non-Aggression Pact of 1934.

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  • 200. At 08:38am on 27 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Nothing to add, except...I hope European nations (in EU) don't go belly up as that could have an...adverse..action on neighboring economies such as the USA and Russia.

    Web Alice,

    What effect are the European debt troubles having on Russia? Are you or your Russian friends/acquaintances affected adversely? I know that many in the USA (if they do even read newspapers...lol) may feel affected/ worried.

    Also, one of former President Reagan's administration policy sayings was "Never explain, never apologize."

    Now that I'm older, I can see the wisdom in it.

    Another saying, here in the USA, is "consider the source." It's an insult, usually to the "source."

    Both sayings are given to you--from me--to help You in dealing with other poster's "wise counsel" here.

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  • 201. At 08:42am on 27 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Oh yes, no offense to anyone--and none taken:))

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  • 202. At 08:57am on 27 Nov 2010, Lorentz wrote:

    I can not on the whole feel much sympathy for the Irish since they brought this upon themselves. Firstly by blindly accepting what they were told about the Euro before signing up to the project, and then by either direct involvement, or by turning a blind eye to what was going on, both at national and local levels, throughout the property boom.

    If a re-alignment of Irish politics away from the divisions of nationhood then that would be an improvement.

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  • 203. At 09:01am on 27 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Its Friday night (for me here) so I'm feeling good and feeling helpful and giving towards others -- whether they like my help and gifts..or Not:))

    Peace and love to all! Especially to the British and to continental Europeans from We, Ever Loving and Giving, Americans!

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  • 204. At 09:16am on 27 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    192 webalice writes:
    "margaret. ;o)))))) I won't reply if you excuse me :o))))) You will deviate me, only, sideways."

    Didn't think you would.


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  • 205. At 09:21am on 27 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Give modern Russia the borders of 1940 - then we will confess and compensate all the "Soviet Union" did."


    West Germany did not ask that its borders are restored to 1942 or even 1938 borders before it owned out to crimes committed by Germans from later BRD AND from DDR. And by Austrians after Anschluss.

    Although there was no III Reich anymore.

    [exuses, exuses, exuses]

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  • 206. At 09:30am on 27 Nov 2010, Norman Conquest wrote:

    @ 205

    Poland still hasn't apologized for anything.

    But crime WERE committed. I mean after independence they were so into bloodlust, so rabidly nationalistic they even killed their first prime-minister because he wasn't Polish enough (but had some Lithuanian blood).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-B0527-0001-293,_Warschau,_Empfang_Goebbels_bei_Marschall_Pilsudski.jpg

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  • 207. At 09:32am on 27 Nov 2010, Norman Conquest wrote:

    nice photo, isn't it Powermeerkant?

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-B0527-0001-293%2C_Warschau%2C_Empfang_Goebbels_bei_Marschall_Pilsudski.jpg

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  • 208. At 09:37am on 27 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "After the wall came down a tablet has been hanged in the lobby at the university in Jena - the place where Hegel became a professor only 23 years old and Karl Marx studied for his dissertation.
    The table is dedicated to the victims of two German dictatorships in the 20th century from 1933-1945 and 1949-1989 with the sentence, which I think apply to Russia too:

    The truth will liberate you."




    There's a place in McLean (VA), where on a floor of a great entrance hall the same quote from St. John is engraved (as a company's motto):


    [you'll learn the truth]
    "And the truth shall make you free".

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  • 209. At 09:41am on 27 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    PMK,

    The West Germans post-WW2 wouldn't have dared. Not even the "mischievous ones" would had said much THEN about "better" borders.

    Oh, you are joking. Good one.

    :O))))

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  • 210. At 09:57am on 27 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    " As regards Katyn, i am not apologizing at all and this apology is not in my name. Those people were career officers, police, landed gentry -- exactly the people implicated in many crimes of the Polish empire"





    Of course people like that would never apologize. And nobody in their right mind would expect their kind to do so.


    But records clearly show that most of those murdered in places like Katyn, Kharkov, Mednoye, etc., were not Polish CAREER officers, but RESERVE officers: in their civilian lives engineers, doctors, scientists, university professors, teachers, lawyers, agronomists, etc.

    As I said earlier, Beria's, Stalin's, Molotov's and Voroshilov's intent intent was to wipe out Polish INTELLIGENSIA and leave only a slave labour to suit the Evil Empire; exactly the same policy which the other party to Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact implemented in a half of Poland it occupied.

    The difference being that Germans admitted their guilt, apologized and paid out compensation to most survivors or their spouses and children.
    Years ago.

    And punished most of the perpetrators [cf Nazi Hunt]


    Russians - did not.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "Eh, Anastasia, Anastasia!
    Are you Europe or Asia?"

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  • 211. At 10:04am on 27 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:



    Just as this one: :)

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-H27337%2C_Moskau%2C_Stalin_und_Ribbentrop_im_Kreml.jpg

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  • 212. At 10:06am on 27 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:



    And of course that one: :)


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MolotovRibbentropStalin.jpg

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  • 213. At 10:15am on 27 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    185. At 00:05am on 27 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:
    "If you think the rest of the world would believe this claptrap then you are totally misguided and seem to live on another planet."

    204. At 09:16am on 27 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:
    192 webalice writes:
    "margaret. ;o)))))) I won't reply if you excuse me :o))))) You will deviate me, only, sideways."

    Didn't think you would."



    Ah, the unbridled empathy of the liberal-minded Scottish lady: Of course if an Englishman had been at Katyn she'd have her perfect villain.

    WebAlice, it is a factor to be taken account of in any contribution by the 'lady': Whilst a calculated and immoral 'crime' of the sort perpetrated at Katyn may well have been committed by any sort of nation, group, personages... and the murky depths of such cruel deeds requires a 'political-impulse' for it to occur it is only to be beyond all reasoning were it inspired by the 'English'.

    She berates You as misguided for the weight of evidence does suggest it was a Soviet Russian affair.
    Thus, in the fragrant lady's so unbiased eyes it is "claptrap" and You "live on another planet" if You do not accept the massacre at Katyn and instead question the motives of Gorbachev, the Duma, Putin etc.

    Remarkable assertion by the impartial 'lady' who on these blogs with reference to all manner of 'politically motivated crimes' has needed no evidence save the word of DemocThreat, the greek or QOT to render a verdict of guilty whenever the 'English' are in the frame.

    Should You be interested, my advice WebAlice, is whenever You have the misfortune to read one of these missives on the beastly soul of others You keep in mind the ill-starred 'lady' is aware & carries the burden no Scot would do such a thing and therefore the rest of the World has failed to live upto her own unreserved moral & ethical standards.

    In short, the honourable 'lady' has 2 method of apportioning blame:
    If evidence borders on conclusive she will attach guilt appropriately.
    If there is little or no evidence then the 'English' did it.


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  • 214. At 10:16am on 27 Nov 2010, Norman Conquest wrote:

    @ 211-212

    Powermeerkat,

    nice pictures thank you... but you will find that the one with Marshal Pilsudski was made at least five years earlier... also Von Ribbentropp is not quite on the same scale as Dr. Goebbels.

    Admit it (and a lot of other things besides) and the truth will set you free too.

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  • 215. At 10:26am on 27 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #199. At 08:38am on 27 Nov 2010, Norman Conquest

    Your last paragraph was possibly fair comment but you spoilt it when you said 'far greater crimes than those of Stalin', all dictators are the same, Stalin was a pure unadulterated dictator and not a benevolent dictator. That there were such people throughout Europe at the time is regrettable but whilst their crimes should be known I do not agree with the current blame culture and demands for compensation. That for me is simply an attempt to milk an event for profit and the event, the facts of the event are irrelevant as profiteering is all that counts. Yes, lets know the truth but just leave it at that.

    If people can't just leave things at that what's next, the UK suing Denmark and Norway for the rape and pillaging of the Danes and Vikings in pre-history. It would be totally stupid and brain dead to even consider it so what difference is there to these events and Katyn other than time.

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  • 216. At 10:35am on 27 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    True, Norman Conquest.

    I mean that sincerely. That IS why I read dissident opinions here such as M Howard's, QOT's, Nik's and ..Powermeerkat's (he is a Republican!--jest jokin,' PMK)

    And actually I do like PlanetEnglish's and CBW's views mainly--though I Never say so...ever...

    But, reading other's opinions like Nik's, especially, is enlightening to my bored and slightly jaded American ears:))))

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  • 217. At 10:37am on 27 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 218. At 11:06am on 27 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:


    Perhaps historical revisionists would care to read just a few short excerpts from a very extensive Wikipedia entry on a large scale Soviet-Nazi cooperation during WWII:


    One week after the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, the partition of Poland commenced with the German invasion of western Poland. On September 17, the Red Army invaded eastern Poland and occupied the Polish territory assigned to it by the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, followed by co-ordination with German forces in Poland.[...]

    On February 11, 1940, Germany and the Soviet Union entered into the German-Soviet Commercial Agreement, an intricate trade pact in which the Soviet Union would send Germany 650 million Reichmarks in raw materials in exchange for 650 million Reichmarks in machinery, manufactured goods and technology he trade pact helped Germany to surmount the British blockade of Germany.[...].

    Under the aegis of the economic agreements, Soviet-German exports and imports increased tenfold.[...]

    By June 1940, Soviet imports comprised over 50% of Germany's total overseas imports, and often exceed 70% of total German overseas imports.[...]

    There had never been such intensive trade between Germany and the Soviet Union as that which took place during the eighteen months of 1940 to June 1941."

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  • 219. At 11:48am on 27 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    Katyn

    "Those people were career officers, police, landed gentry -- exactly the people implicated in many crimes of the Polish empire"

    And the 20 university professors ; 300 physicians; several hundred lawyers, engineers, and teachers; and more than 100 writers and journalists . . . ???

    No, the others are right. This was a general policy initiated by Beria to clear Poland of anyone unsuitable for slave labour.

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  • 220. At 11:55am on 27 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Mathiasen, not to change a subject [Katyn] you've raised first, but it seems Christmas season has started early this year.


    At least in the U.S.


    "A teenager has been arrested in the US state of Oregon after allegedly plotting to carry out a car bomb attack at a Christmas tree lighting ceremony.
    Somali-born Mohamed Osman Mohamud, 19, was arrested after reportedly making a telephone call he thought would set off the bomb in the centre of Portland." (BBC News)

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  • 221. At 11:59am on 27 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #218 - powermeerkat

    Indeed and this has given rise to the allegation that the Nazis were perfectly aware of what was going on and may have advised on methodology. Nobody comes out of this looking good despite the efforts of Goering to use it as a PR tool or the persistent denials of the post war communists. However, the evidence seems overwhelming that NKVD actually committed the atrocity. The fact that German automatic weapons were used is a red herring and explained in the same Wiki article - "The executioners used German weapons rather than the standard Soviet revolvers, as the latter were said to offer too much recoil, which made shooting painful after the first dozens of executions".

    The denialists seem to me to bury their heads in the sand and the apologists who imply that the Poles were getting their just desserts for previous atrocities against Ukrainians are simply talking rubbish. One bad genocide deserves another? Give me a break.

    It was a monstrous episode and I, for one give credit to post communist Russian leaders for putting up their hands to it. There will be precious few perpetrators left alive to bring o justice and even fewer survivors to compensate. What matters here is the truth.

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  • 222. At 12:04pm on 27 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #221. At 11:59am on 27 Nov 2010, threnodio_II writes:

    #218 - powermeerkat

    "..It was a monstrous episode and I, for one give credit to post communist Russian leaders for putting up their hands to it. There will be precious few perpetrators left alive to bring to justice and even fewer survivors to compensate. What matters here is the truth."


    CBW: Again, hear, hear!

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  • 223. At 12:07pm on 27 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #219


    And we could go on and on about members of RUSSIAN intelligentsia purged by NKVD/KGB as "enemies of the state".

    I recall artists such as Stravinsky, Chagall, Kandinsky, Nabokov, Akhmatova, Pasternak etc., being referred to as "degenerates" and even "traitors".
    By worms like Erenburg, Kaganovitch and Furtseva.


    BTW. Alice, has an identity of Anna Politkovskaya's assassin and his rank and paygrade at FSB has been revealed yet?

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  • 224. At 12:15pm on 27 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #221 threnodio II: "The fact that German automatic weapons were used is a red herring and explained in the same Wiki article - "The executioners used German weapons rather than the standard Soviet revolvers, as the latter were said to offer too much recoil, which made shooting painful after the first dozens of executions".




    From Wiki:

    "Blokhin's most notable act was the April 1940 mass execution by shooting of 7,000 Polish officers. [...]Blokhin initially decided on an ambitious quota of 300 executions per night. [...]

    Blokhin—outfitted in a leather butcher's apron, cap, and shoulder-length gloves to protect his uniform then pushed the prisoner against the log wall and shot him once in the base of the skull with a German Walther Model 2.25 ACP pistol.[...]

    The use of a German pocket pistol, which was commonly carried by Nazi intelligence agents, also provided plausible deniability of the executions if the bodies were discovered later."


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  • 225. At 12:20pm on 27 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #223 - powermeerkat

    Ah - Soviet Realism. What a great gift to the world that was.

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  • 226. At 1:16pm on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    If I understand WAI correctly - she believes (#193) in collective guilt. Whereas Buzet 23 (#215) believes what is done -is done. Both viewpoints dilute the responsibility for atrocities and societal misdeeds of the perpetrators.

    If any society wishes atrocities NOT to be done in its name --then neither viewpoint is satisfactory. WAI believes their children or children´s children are born with guilt and Buzet 23 accepts that if children or children´s children have financial benefit from past atrocities --then they are welcome to it.

    Both are interchangeable arguments depending on what a ruling elite wishes to extract from their history --often at the lowest cost and with the least responsibility.

    Both Russia (SU) and Britain had (for CBW -- have) a Totalitarian elite and governments who rubber stamp either of the historical arguments to their benefit.

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  • 227. At 1:34pm on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #189 Threodio

    --Yes !

    -- If it comes down to that one is only bankrupt if the interest cannot be paid --and you have a printing press --then the largest economy in the world (USA) -- is doing fine !

    The pack of cards still fell with AAA ´s all over the place.

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  • 228. At 1:53pm on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Read for #226

    ´-- and governments who rubber stamp either of the viewpoints to their benefit ´

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  • 229. At 2:08pm on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    powermeer
    "Gen. Putin has been a chief promoter of the Baltic pipeline to Germany (with a little help from his factotum G. Schroeder) precisely because it would bypass terrority of Poland; a country which Vladimir Vladimirovitchstill consideres hostile to iperial ambitions of Mother Russia."

    Poland competes with the Baltic States for who is the route Russia-Europe, not in gas, but, as Nik would have put it "geopolitically".

    Poland TOOK the place of the Baltic States as our historical connection road with Europe post-perestroyka; the Baltics were winded up to be fierce anti-Russian in neglect of their economic interests, and were effectively fooled.
    What Putin has in mind is just to restore the normal arrangement.
    Not a single mad horseman ever galloped to Europe from here via a 7 mile U-turn :o)))))) - via Poland. Riga and Tallin are our historical hubs in trade and comms and delieries back-forward Russia-Europe.

    Russia isn't homogeneously developed, it's not that you can start from any point in our lengthy borderline to go to Europe. Our infrustructure is buuilt for the route to Europe via the baltics, historicallhy, it's where railways are where people live able to service the business.

    You didn't notice even NATO deliveries to Afghanistan via Russia are strangely done via Riga and not via Poland - as I said not a mad horseman ever existed to trundle to European places of significance via Poland.

    And the Baltics will hang an anchor on the EU neck until the status quo is restored and they are the way to Russia and the ports and the hub again.

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  • 230. At 2:22pm on 27 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #226. At 1:16pm on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree

    My words were "That there were such people throughout Europe at the time is regrettable but whilst their crimes should be known I do not agree with the current blame culture and demands for compensation. That for me is simply an attempt to milk an event for profit and the event, the facts of the event are irrelevant as profiteering is all that counts. Yes, lets know the truth but just leave it at that."

    And somehow you have managed to translate those words into "and Buzet 23 accepts that if children or children´s children have financial benefit from past atrocities --then they are welcome to it."

    My words are that all too often these days the blame culture is an attempt to screw money out of people for something their ancestors may or may not have done, and THAT IS WRONG. Now try misconstruing that, as I do NOT believe in the compensation culture. Stick to apologising for past misdeeds but nothing more other than making sure dictators can never rise to power again, and that includes megalomaniacal power freaks like the mandarins that miss-run the EU.

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  • 231. At 2:23pm on 27 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    160 webalice writes:
    "Give modern Russia the borders of 1940 - then we will confess and compensate all the "Soviet Union" did."
    Totally outrageous and an insult to all those who have tried to bring peace to Europe, especially Gorbachev who did more than most to bring to an end all these empire building ambitions. (I'm not surprised you have a friend in CBW. I only hope you will give him enough time to leave the country when next Russia tries to take over Finland)

    I agree with 205 powermeet when he writes:
    "West Germany did not ask that its borders are restored to 1942 or even 1938 borders before it owned out to crimes committed by Germans from later BRD AND from DDR. And by Austrians after Anschluss."

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  • 232. At 2:31pm on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    As a matter of fact, the train may be gone, for the Baltics, forever.
    After their 20 years of stubborness "we don't want to have any thing in common with Russia" - their dreams will come true, they won't ;o))))

    We've been working on the ports' issue, for one thing, and quite not bad.
    There is one brand new opened now 110 km away from St. Petersburg, Ust-Luga, a new place on the map, you may as well learn the name :o), a town built from scratch on an empty spot, for 32,000 people imported, 10,000 of which work in the port. Its piers last 10 km, pretty number and of very busy piers who had orders secured half a year before the ribbon is cut. Coal sector, mineral those eh? things for agriculture, two Japanese companies' car sectors, importing jap cars into the ex-USSR. One is Toyota piers the other one forgot. Toyota signed the contract that their piers are simultaneoulsy their warehouse and stocks' trading centre, they keep 5,000 cars there sending it from the port to the buyers - as a special rail-road has been built to that desolate corner to service the port.

    Harbour was crap initially, that's why there has never been a Russian port in there, but the underwater routes, channels, were digged in and fortified, a huge project, so that heavy big ships could arrive, the sea was deepened whefre river Luga meets the Baltic shore. It's got a river transit, a highway and a railway line now, and a deep harbour.

    Toyota advertsies Ust'-Luga like crazy :o)))) because for 2010 so far the Russian branch of Toyota is the only one that displayed 65% (sixty-five) decrease in the company branch costs - while all the rest have demonstrated a slight increase. because no more borders anymore for their cars transit into Russia and her ex on car import agreements.

    I doin't think Toyota and the other one will return to the Baltic ports.

    The coal terminal is said to be the best in the world; it is automated to mysterious degrees, no dirt in the air there at all, and no suspended in the air particles, so closed-up the cycles of reloading are, without people at all, only by buttons from the command centre. What's dear in it the system allows to mix 32 types of coal from different sourecs right there in port, for different customers', from source coals arriving.
    We think these companies won't retufrn to the Baltics either.


    even Peter the First had a go at that place himself when thinking where to found the new capital, is known himself by his own hand measuring depths in the sea, viewed it as the place for his St petersburg to be in mind. But arrived to the conclusion the sea is too shallow there and the river is too shallow compared with the neva river, and made his choice re where we are :o) We could have ended up St petersburg on Luga river :o)))))) back in 1700. But the sea was found unsatisfyiably shallow by him.


    Balance of centre points has also changed in Europe since horsemen times;
    these days that Russian horseman may be more interested to gallop to Germany as the weight centre - which involves Poland. So, yes, Putin wants Poland for friends.

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  • 233. At 2:39pm on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #230 Buzet 23

    ---I appear to have understood correctly what you wrote.

    How far back would you go (and which suffering) is fair --to void any misunderstanding ?




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  • 234. At 2:42pm on 27 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #226. At 1:16pm on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree writes:

    "..Both are interchangeable arguments depending on what a ruling elite wishes to extract from their history --often at the lowest cost and with the least responsibility.

    Both Russia (SU) and Britain had (for CBW -- have) a Totalitarian elite and governments who rubber stamp either of the historical arguments to their benefit."



    I admit to often having been puzzled why QOT does not write with more coherent, discussive details on topics?

    The above 2 quotes amply clear up the matter:

    The first is so shoddily lacking in any meaningful content practically any interpretation may be put on it without anyone really having a clue as to what is the original context.

    The latter has such factually inaccurate content it almost unbelievable even a mind so biased & divorced from reality as QOT could conceive of trying to use 'totalitarian' Government with regard to the UK in the last 100 to 150 or so years!

    Totalitarian = Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, Stalin, Salazar, Papa doc, Castro, Menghistu, Pinochet, Mao, Gaddafi, Assad, Pol Pot, Kim il Jung, Than Shwe, Lukashenka...

    and NOT the Democratically elected likes of Disraeli, Gladstone, Salisbury, Balfour, Cambell-Bannermann, Asquith, George, Bonar-Law, Baldwin, Macdonald, Chamberlain, Churchill, Atlee, Eden, MacMillan, Hume, Wilson, Callaghan, Heath, Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron...



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  • 235. At 2:49pm on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    "and may have advised on methodology"

    "metodology" is absolutely un-Russian. It doesn't get packed into a Russian head. I am sorry may be I have a small one that's why.
    Those rows, carefully lined up, of dead, all facing one side, arms evened, like I don't know, that very geometry of burying, the methodical murder, there is
    this is beyond

    we have no shortage of repression victims' sites, excavations done, this is mess (normal) that Katyn is insane.

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  • 236. At 2:52pm on 27 Nov 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    Have I missed something ? Perhaps the inteligencia here can explain the connection between the massacre in Katyn and the present troubles in Ireland ? Or could the massacre have been brought to mind by the prejudices and venom of some of the participants .

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  • 237. At 2:56pm on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    and they fit the lists of who killed buried where, up to 1 dead body exactness. like, nearly labelled, like in a store.

    in Gulags' death sites you can't find any body, however hard you look. whole expeditions, excavating the sites, even the most dear to us ex-prizoners' bodies - poets Mandelshtam (Siberia), Gumilev - here, 22 km off St. Petersburg - you can't find nothing to re-bury. There is a site of burial known - not a single relative across Russia was ever able to find his kin in those mass graves.

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  • 238. At 3:15pm on 27 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #231 - margaret howard
    #160 - WebAliceinwonderland

    I think Margaret that you may be doing Webalice an injustice. Consider what she actually said: "Give modern Russia the borders of 1940 - ". She does not say anything about the borders of the Soviet Union. She is not laying claim to the Baltic Rebublics or any of the CIS countries. If she was, I would agree with you.

    In fact, I am not aware of any significant differences between the borders of modern Russia and the lawful boundaries in 1940 except, possibly in the Caucus. Perhaps Alice would explain.

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  • 239. At 3:18pm on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    From the very beginning it went all, how to say, in a very untrustable way.
    Starting with the whistle blower Goebbels (no reputation for authentity in the Russian mind, sorry :o))))))
    If someone had to find it first Goebbels was the worst possible man to discover to be trusted.

    Then this labelling, the id-s with dead bodies. Like, someone wants them to be found and identified. This is not Gulag approach - there - it's no documents EVER buried together with the dead.

    Then I guess it's the very secrecy of the "operation", with few relatively people immediately in the murder site (and one doesn't wonder why - if to see that Russian murderer confession who was killing 8000 alone - given this "efficiency" - you don't need many executioners.

    It's not, how to say, war, from which many return home and tell about it.
    Nobody returned home to their families in Russia and said "I did it". Firstly, for clear reasons why - it is a murder, secondly - because there weren't many of them, it seems, in the first place.

    That's why I am telling you again - this country isn't aware.
    We don't trust official news, always defective here, only home tales, and there were none.

    It's to Margaret Howard only it seems that there , beyond the fence, those nasty Soviets kept boasting to each other how well they killed poor Polish, for 50 years in a row, praising their evil ways and success.
    While denying the accusations of the West in the most arrogant manner.
    Nasty Soviets had no clue. Even nasty Communist party members.
    They fell basically off their chairs when their then general Secretary of the Communist Party (Gorbachyov) broke them the news that this is not Goebbels this is us.


    My mum has been in Poland in 1960; she remembers they all buzzed her all ears about Katyn and that this is you, not Germans - she only bobbled her eyes and thought them how to say, mad.
    Besides, even then Poland from sentence one it's you went straight to sentence two - give us money, which wasn't exactly helpful in trusting them.

    This Polish stand hasn't changed since 1960 it seems, judging by Kachinsky and powermeer above, and it is not assisting how to say to understand the true Polish intentions.

    And overall Poland is a very "bad choice" of possible victims in such a disaster because our centuries' old animosity , matured, how to say, beliefs of each other - stand in the way of objectivity and truth.

    Will add even that threnodio will classify it all as peripheral again (agree, peripheral, but I will explain anyway) that the steady Polish "bill" for "40,000 Poles murdered in Katyn" - does not help matters of truth finding either.
    Not even because Katyn is now an aggregate name for many execution sites on that border with Belorussia and with Ukraine, or in them, (not strictly Katyn itself, a site by Smolensk) - but because Poland stubbornly includes into the coungt Belorussians and Lithuanians and Ukrainians murdered in katyn as "Poles", keeping in mind their previous borders and being an empire of those quarters. Like, numbers them as, own Poles, and put the "bill" to Russia on behalf of all, widely calling them "Polish".


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  • 240. At 3:21pm on 27 Nov 2010, Jukka Rohila wrote:

    To powermeerkat (198) and WebAliceinwonderland (229):

    In regards of the Nord Stream gas pipeline, it isn't a big deal any more as...

    A) EU and member states are engaged in building of reversible gas inter-connectors for the creation of the common European gas network. With a common network, gas can be transmitted freely inside the EU. In short, if there is a problem transmitting gas via Ukraine or Baltic route, gas from the Nord Stream or from south or from gas storages can be diverted to where it is needed.

    http://www.utilityweek.co.uk/news/europe/gas-interconnectors-in-eastern.php
    http://www.isn.ethz.ch/isn/Digital-Library/Publications/Detail/?ots591=&lng=en&id=113359

    B) EU by legislation is creating an internal market in gas by removing natural monopolies by unbundling transmission systems and transmission system operators by 3.3.2012. What this means is that consumers of gas can freely select their gas providers, thus they are not limited to the local gas company but can instead opt for the cheapest provider of gas.

    http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/energy/internal_energy_market/en0017_en.htm

    and finally

    C) The gas market liberalisation is really going to work, this can be deduced from the reaction that Mr. Putin gave...

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20101126/bs_afp/russiagermanyeconomyenergyputineu_20101126154628

    http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/86096/20101126/russia-putin-germany-eu-energy.htm

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  • 241. At 3:26pm on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #234 CBW

    Do British citizens have collective guilt for the atrocities of the Empire ?

    If I remember correctly, Her Majesty´s government apologized for the hardships ´Britain´caused with slavery ie. Collective Guilt -- when the British (serf) masses were oppressed by a Totalitarian Elite by working in ´slave like´ conditions.

    Who and which families SHOULD have taken the blame ?

    Never mind the accumulated wealth some descendants enjoy from the atrocities and theft of bygone glories.

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  • 242. At 3:34pm on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Margaret this is simply arrogant of you to tell me how should I like Gorbachyov, that's why I did not reply - not because I can'ty say any thing about him :o)))).

    But if you insist.
    Elect him as your ruler, he is alive and very much available, let him rule you and evaluate the results and be happy. How you have the nerve to tell others what to think of their rulers and their achievements?

    You make of him some Georgiano Bruno or Galileo, a genius, un-understood by own country and own time, ahead of the time advanced personality.

    The fact is this Georgiano Bruno :o)) is despised across 15 countries - and by your view it shoul be only Russia desperate about the loss of 14 sovereigns. Well suprise surprise to you those 14 sovereigns lost are of very low opinion of him as well. Though, theoretically, should be happy they got free.
    15 countries worth of idiots, in other words, unabe to see own happiness, and only Margater knows how great and wonderful he is.
    People aren't idiots, the contemporaries.

    There are a million ways to dismantle an empire and they all think they lost, each of them, and not to a neighbouring one or to the central one Russia, but each by itself, in their how to say, scope, and power and ability to be alright.

    The olde question comes to mind "who profits", the West has profited of Gorbachyov, old dreams come true :o)))))), Russia dis-mantled, that's competition with a strong entity in the continent, and in the planet, all there is to it. So you have profited - like kiss and embrace him as much as you want, I won't tell you how to feel about Gorbachyov. But why the skinned ones should be happy is beyond me :o))))) - in short don't tell ex-USSRians, a hearty warning, if you ever get to Georgia or Kazakhstan or whatever - folks on the ground may not understand you correctly :o))))))



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  • 243. At 3:36pm on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    CBW

    --- and before you go off on a tangent-

    We are discussing ´Collective guilt´and ´Personal guilt´

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  • 244. At 3:40pm on 27 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #241

    "Who and which families SHOULD have taken the blame ?
    Never mind the accumulated wealth some descendants enjoy from the atrocities and theft of bygone glories. "

    I'm sure there are thousands of them. What do you propose?

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  • 245. At 3:43pm on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    why wouldn't Scotland hire Gorbachyov for the ruler? I think he might be not against the double citizenship, slowly becoming man of the world, travelling everywhere but not home :o)

    Why won't the EU! cool-brush that's the only sure way I can recommend for your dreams to come true! :o)))))))))))))))) ASAP! same ingenious advice can give to the EUprizoner blogger.

    Finally, - why can't I dream? - fasten you seat belts - WHY NOT THE USA?

    Many people's dreams across the globe ;o)))))))))) will come true soon after! :o)))))))

    He's good at it - honest! To blast a house - there is nothing like, on God's green earth!

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  • 246. At 3:43pm on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Margaret Howard

    I agree with you completely --

    --your atrocities are yours --and our atrocities are negotiable ?

    Sounds like simple Nationalism to me !

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  • 247. At 3:56pm on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #244 C_C

    --start at the top and work downwards !

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  • 248. At 4:00pm on 27 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #247

    quietoaktree;

    --start at the top and work downwards !

    And do what to them?

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  • 249. At 4:04pm on 27 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #239 - WebAliceinwonderland

    And, having defended you, now I must take issue with you. The Belorussian and Ukrainian s you are referring to were taken as prisoners while serving the the Polish forces. They are therefore of legitimate concern to the Poles. The Russian, Ukrainian, Protestant, Muslim, Tatar, Jewish, Georgian and Belarusian who were victims were Polish nationals. Estimates of casualties vary from 14,500 ("common knowledge" ackoring to 'Memorial') to about 22,000. According to Wiki, the most common estimate is 21,768. It is also accepted that not all these 'executions' actually took place in Katyn Forest. Victims were also transported in numbers to other locations.

    Shelepin's 3 March 1959 note to Khrushchev, refers to the execution of 21,857. I am not sure where your figure of 40,000 comes from. Do the figures actually matter? Well they do if you want to find a neat little formula to define genocide. Ask the Turks. They claim that 1.5 million Armenians does not amount to genocide.

    The important thinks are that horrible massacre did take place. The documents proving that all this originated in a plan hatched by Beria are in the public domain and there is a official acknowledgment of 1,807 document executions with much more detail to follow.

    I do not know what border adjustments you want but set those - minor ones though they may - be as a precondition of coming clean is unacceptable. Intellectually, it is the equivalent of Britain saying we will admit to starving million of Indians in the thirties but only if you give us back Canada. Face it Alice, NKVD have blood all over their hands and no amount of scrubbing around border issues will wash it off.

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  • 250. At 4:07pm on 27 Nov 2010, reincarnation wrote:

    245. WebAliceinwonderland
    "why wouldn't Scotland hire Gorbachyov for the ruler? "

    Now there's an interesting idea. We could make the job of President/Prime Minister in every country a post like a football manager. Rich countries get to hire the best from the world - and if their country doesn't rule the world by the end of the season, the manager gets sacked! :-)

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  • 251. At 4:09pm on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    "40 thousand Poles" is in plaques in monuments devoted to Katyn massacre worldwide.

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  • 252. At 4:21pm on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #248 C_C

    -- Make them pay up and return the stolen property !

    --then apologize on their OWN behalf !

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  • 253. At 4:26pm on 27 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #231. At 2:23pm on 27 Nov 2010, margaret howard writes:160 webalice writes:

    "Give modern Russia the borders of 1940 - then we will confess and compensate all the "Soviet Union" did."
    Totally outrageous and an insult to all those who have tried to bring peace to Europe, especially Gorbachev who did more than most to bring to an end all these empire building ambitions. (I'm not surprised you have a friend in CBW. I only hope you will give him enough time to leave the country when next Russia tries to take over Finland).."



    Oh please Margaret, no pompous lectures on outrage & insults from You!

    That really is taking the p### out of everyone on this blog!

    You denigrate every aspect of England & the English from charity fund-raising for the armed forces to MPs expenses, You back unsubstantiated claims the British are 'war criminals' the equal of Hitler, You lambast the English causing WW1 & WW2, You launch tirades for cruelty in Ireland etc. whilst forgetting the Scots-Welsh participation, You laud contributions accusing the English of every crime since Lot's wife formed a pillar of salt... As if that weren't enough You back other contributions that denigrate jews & americans... You cast totally unfounded accusations at anything with an 'English-speaking' connection.

    Margaret, don't even try to write the words 'outrageous' and 'insult' about other's viewpoints until You have learned to curb Your own shameful excesses!

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  • 254. At 4:33pm on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Margaret wrote
    "(I'm not surprised you have a friend in CBW. I only hope you will give him enough time to leave the country when next Russia tries to take over Finland)"

    Margaret you are not orienting in local things. Russia will not try to take over Finland. We cherish them as they are, and the desirable thing is they always stay better than we are. Because by location they are by our second capital side' and all who have money (and it happens so in capital cities' places, especially our rulers, love to have possibility to go to Finland to the medical service if anything, as they are the nearest abroad to us, and for shopping, and all.

    By the way the recent developments is that Russia became so exopensive that ordinary St. petersburgers are developing the taste to go to Finland shopping. My dacha's neighbours' daughetr has been for the first time 2 weeks ago and brought home the whole car of dog food, cat food, coffee, tea, cheese and funny even chocolates - (with mint) (new idea here, and we like all the chocolates combined as a notion :o)
    I ate that very choc and am live evidence. She says "it's all for the people there" when I asked here how it is there, she said "What to tell you, in short - all for the people." She goes back for some sales someone told her there will be Christmas sales, and she would go back anyway, as she put her eye on some? :o))))) like a glass deer with light bulbs inside, big :o))))), to stand by the Christmas tree on the floor :o)))) In our shop in the dacha village (I also surveyed that deer) it is 4,000 roubles and small, and in Finalnd, back to our money - it's 2,000 she says and a big one! :o))))

    The teachers, colleagues, where I teach, we walk home together, after the classes, to the subway station, and many I heard say to each other - See you tomorrow? No, "tomorrow I am in Finland, see you on Wednesday". And they talk I bought this is Finland and that - all who have own cars travel very often.

    Neighbours' daughter says she started from home in her car at midnight, at 3 am was at the border, border check ups mess and line took her to 5-6 o'clock :o))))), then she didn't know where to drive to at all, once over, waited for the first Russian car to trail behind :o))))
    says they stopped and laughed at her, asked "For the first time? OK, follow us", and then she says Finnish shops open early, and by about 2 pm anyway all one's money end up :o))))) - and one can go back home, that's what she did and was back again by the evening.
    She says abolutely all cheaper than in Russia, incredible.
    I wish I had a car.

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  • 255. At 4:41pm on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    And it's more and more occasions, you call someone, on the mobile, they say "can't talk now, I am in Finland (expensive roaming tariff), I'll call you back tomorrow".

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  • 256. At 4:44pm on 27 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #252

    quietoaktree;

    "-- Make them pay up and return the stolen property !

    --then apologize on their OWN behalf ! "

    Make WHO pay up? You have a link to a list I presume? I want to know, because I reckon I'm entitled to some compensation.

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  • 257. At 4:44pm on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #253 CBW

    No, all MH is saying is that you and Britain do not accept responsibility for your atrocities.

    --and you appear to be in good company !

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  • 258. At 4:53pm on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    threnodio wrote

    "I think Margaret that you may be doing Webalice an injustice. Consider what she actually said: "Give modern Russia the borders of 1940 - ". She does not say anything about the borders of the Soviet Union. She is not laying claim to the Baltic Rebublics or any of the CIS countries. If she was, I would agree with you.

    In fact, I am not aware of any significant differences between the borders of modern Russia and the lawful boundaries in 1940 except, possibly in the Caucus. Perhaps Alice would explain."

    No, threnodio, am grieved to admit that Margaret understood me not literally but what I meant, anyway. "Give modern Russia borders of the USSR - and we will answer for the deed of the USSR" - that's what I meant. See no controversy in this, given the heavy hand modern 14 played in ruling and shaping up and even making to exist, in the first place - the whole USSR concept.

    (About Canada and Indian anything don't have a clue. We are less interested in things beyond us than within us ;o)
    Did you starve them together with the Canadians, you mean?
    Very noble of you of course now to rule the Canadians out of that deed; no feel unable to rule our Baltics out of Lenin's establishment, Ukraine out of "developed socialism" life period and georgia out of Stalin because his many compatriots were at power Sorry don't have similar generosity levels in me ;o)))), as you display with Canada or whoever else i am sure ex yours in the globe. I think they were detached a bit compared to our ex and didn't part take in empire ruling business as much as ours did being constantly in.

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  • 259. At 5:01pm on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    yes, quiet oak, meant collective guilt I guess.
    yes, may be ineffective approach for hanging the ones immediately responsible. as buttered ? spread out responsibility, as you say.
    come to think of it.

    still, can't help it :o))))))) we think collectively and guilt also falls in, under this category.

    but who wants them hanged? come to think of it. oh great use. as an instructive show only, may be, the view of the scaffold, a repellent example, for others who may be eager to do the same.

    still, when the society processes it within itself, as a bad idea of a best demonstrated practice :o))) - it's more sure way not to have it repeated, deeper routed in beliefs and how to say, understandings of the range - what is normal society's behaviour what is an ill, sick, criminal deviation - to be looked down at, by all, like - "this one - is not a hero" :o)))) to put it mildly. but a wild beast.

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  • 260. At 5:06pm on 27 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #241. At 3:26pm on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree writes:

    "#234 CBW
    Do British citizens have collective guilt for the atrocities of the Empire ?

    If I remember correctly, Her Majesty´s government apologized for the hardships ´Britain´caused with slavery ie. Collective Guilt -- when the British (serf) masses were oppressed by a Totalitarian Elite by working in ´slave like´ conditions.

    Who and which families SHOULD have taken the blame ?
    Never mind the accumulated wealth some descendants enjoy from the atrocities and theft of bygone glories."



    So, QOT yet again, fails to address any genuine point and immediately switches to another strain of supposed thought (okay, I'm being generous!?).
    We can all deduce from QOT's silence that of course 'totalitarianism' and the Democratically Elected UK Governments was yet another load of tosh & gibberish.
    If we apply 'totalitarian' to UK Governments then we must also apply it to the rest of the EU27, afterall they are all Democratically Elected. Unfortunately for QOT he was unaware that a Dictatorship may hold Elections but not 'Democratic' in any recognisable form.
    Then again, if we do as QOT in #241 wishes (as he had no answer for anything) and step back into previous Centuries what must we make of the French, German, Belgian, Russian, Dutch etc. 'Imperial' past and their 'Governments' ? QOT alleges it is the British 'serf (masses)' that are unique - - when it is clear factual-reality History refutes that charge and we at once see in the 18th & developing through the 19th centuries the great mass of French, German, Belge, and of course British peoples were neither 'serfs' nor fully emancipated, but then a little detail like FACT & HISTORICAL RECORD isn't going to prevent QOT's meandering trivialisation of events.
    Indeed even the peasants of the Russian Empire were freed of Serfdom by the Tsar in 1861. Those of Austro-Hungary a good deal earlier.

    QOT chucks in all sorts in the hope of readers becoming as confused & muddle-headed as is the basis for almost everything he contributes: No rhyme, little reason and even less logic!

    Absurd prejudice against one island peoples (the English/British) means QOT is incapable of seeing it, but it serves no purpose for QOT to switch to an 'apology' for 'slavery' as though any part of his #226 views on 'totalitarianism' had the remotest connection with those views.

    Basically, QOT didn't have a clue about what he wrote at #226; it was much longer than his usual out-put and as I remarked in my #234 more than amply demonstrated his failure to think through any of the content. QOT's factual ineptitude is confirmed by his rambling, inconsequential #241.

    It would seem the adage, 'once a fraud, always fraudulent' really is all there is to this misguided QOT.
    However, as the subject of 'friends' has been brought up in another Comment (#231), let me assure QOT he does have a friend on this blog - - the redoubtable Margaret Howard recognises his genius - - which possibly informs all of us more than anything else might as to the integrity & quality of the lady's contributions.


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  • 261. At 5:07pm on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    as a side note "I am not aware of any significant differences between the borders of modern Russia and the lawful boundaries in 1940 except, possibly in the Caucus. Perhaps Alice would explain."

    threnodio :o), we know each other now here for a long time, how can you have skipped it in my squeaking :o))) Crimea it is, Crimea, the minor dear difference :o))))))), and half of mainland modern Ukraine (OK OK 20-30 per cent), and Northern Kazakhstan (30 % of the modern one.) The rest is minor details indeed :o))))))

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  • 262. At 5:08pm on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #256 C_C

    Those who take ´The Oath of Allegiance´ maybe able to assist you with the link.

    Unfortunately the UK land ownership of the guilty is also not registered.

    -- But you owned up to Collective Guilt which places you in a difficult pay-up situation !

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  • 263. At 5:16pm on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    reincarnation @250
    ;o))))

    Come to think of it - simply criminal, that a man with Gorbachyov's talents goes around un-employed and is not used by any one, while he is still active and with us - later on, all will regret!

    We take ourselves out, sorry :o), you can't step into the same river twice - but I am sure if someone brainy looks at the map and takes a close look - there are other empires still available around for "business" :o)

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  • 264. At 5:20pm on 27 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #262

    quietoaktree;

    So you dont know who they are but they ARE guilty of atrocities because they havent registered their land to the land registry? Surreal.

    "-- But you owned up to Collective Guilt which places you in a difficult pay-up situation !"

    Did I? When did I own up to collective guilt? I'm not British, what have I got to be guilty about? I want compensation damnit, tell me who is guilty so I can go sue their asses for the atrocities "they" (who you dont know) perpetrated against my people (whoever they are) during THAT incident (whenever that was). You're the expert, I'm just a victim, throw me a bone here.

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  • 265. At 5:34pm on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #260 CBW

    http://www.sonofthesouth.net/slavery/history-slavery.htm

    ---to keep it short.

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  • 266. At 5:49pm on 27 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #258 - WebAliceinwonderland

    Oh Dear. Well you leave me no choice. Margaret is right. Who took away the borders of the Soviet Union? Did NATO? The Mafia? Did someone slip in in the dead of night and steal millions of hectares of mother Russia? I don't think so. My recollection is of Gorbachev, Shushkevich and Kravchuk sitting down in Dec 2001 and simply signing it all away. The next day, the Supreme Soviet abolished itself. It was all over. No one took it away, Alice - you gave it away - or at least your leaders did.

    So who do you expect to return them? Do you want the Lets and the Estonians and the Georgians to simply walk into the Kremlin and say they are really sorry and of course they all Russians after all? Now how did all this nonsense start? Because you think we are playing the blame game maybe. Nobody with a grain of common sense blames Russia for what happened. Nobody wants you to take responsibility. All anyone is asking is that the modern Russia steps up to the plate and says, Yes the Soviets did this, here is the evidence, thank you and good night. I said earlier that there is nobody left to prosecute and nobody left to compensate. It is a gesture, that is all. Not asking much, is it?

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  • 267. At 5:57pm on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #264 C_C

    --- Then you fall under Buzet 23´s category of #230.

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  • 268. At 5:58pm on 27 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "166. At 10:02pm on 26 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:
    ...my question was quite specific. You said the Irish were to blame. So - the Irish what - the government, the state, the people, the banks, the establishment, the political classes, economic academia - who? Who is to blame?"

    The Banks of course. It's their responsibility to check that loan takers are able to pay loans back. If banks give too much money will prices go too high and this happens because of bankers greed. And this happened in Ireland too. First in USA, now in Ireland. Bankers greed and bonuses, thats where the blame belongs.

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  • 269. At 6:04pm on 27 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #262 & #265

    Another fatuous reference! Another equally fatuous link!

    Pointless to write more: You cannot stick to a topic because You either don't know enough or Your prejudices just let You down.

    Unlimited T & G!

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  • 270. At 6:09pm on 27 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #229


    Alice, I think you are either misinformed or confused.


    Nord Stream (Russian: Северный поток , German: Nordeuropäische Gasleitung) is not running from the Baltic REPUBLICS.

    It is going to run to Germany from the Russian-occupied Finnish town of Viipuri ( Viborg) to Germany under sea.

    It is also a much more costly option than a shorter pipeline through Ukraine and Poland would be, and also potentially more dangerous since there are plenty of WW era unexploded shells (incl. chemical ones) lying at the bottom of the Baltic Sea, detonation of which might result in an environmental damage, as many a Scandinavian country pointed out in the past.

    For those reasons most experts agree that the project, which does not make much economic sense, has been pushed by Moscow for political reasons.

    P.S. If you're interested in routes of many U.S. supplies and troops to Afghanistan - check Kyrgyzstan. :)

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  • 271. At 6:19pm on 27 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "156. At 8:34pm on 26 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
    ...about a system that has failed and is continuing to fail...Most would understand if it is failing then it don't work,...the system is corrupt, decrepit and fatally flawed, got it by now?"

    How the system is failed? EU is still going strong. There it is in mainland, go and see. In bank you can get euros and in stores you will get stuff with it. More than with dollar. So don't use past tense.

    Hundred years past they will laugh about the little shortsighted people that doomed euro in 2010. They will laugh to little currencies like pound and krona where are pictures of fairy tale princesses and kings. In future there will be only Yuan, Euro and maybe Dollar.

    Watch out, future is coming.

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  • 272. At 6:33pm on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #269 CBW

    ---isn´t that G & T for you ?

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  • 273. At 6:50pm on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Alice, I think you are either misinformed or confused.


    :o)))))))))
    Thank you, I know where the North Stream is from, to, and by whose shores.

    "It is going to run to Germany from the Russian-occupied Finnish town of Viipuri (Viborg) to Germany under sea."

    (threnodio at this point might review his "that's all we want from you Russia" view :o)))) it is rather give a finger and we'll snap the hand dear neighbour approach.

    "For those reasons most experts agree that the project, which does not make much economic sense"
    "Most experts" are mostly Polish and Belorussian, both by-passed this Nord way by transit fees.

    There is no economic sense, for starters, in a land pipe which can be blocked by freeze-heads at any point of its way, as the Ukrainian winter 2 yrs ago has shown.
    By the way if someone forgot :o))) there approaches time end of December, when Russian -Ukrainian transit fees are normally reviewed :o)))) as end of the yearly contract time.

    That's not chocolates' delivery that can be interrupted, and, how to say, safer a 2nd WW mine under water :o))) than Russia and Poland, Russia and Belorussia, Russia and Ukraine combinations in gas transit :o))))

    So unless you powermeer, start testing our precious tubie underwater in the diver's outfit :o))))), I think it goes quite straight and economically from A to B, departure Russia arrival Germany, and no meduses and jelly-fishes on the way we need! :o))))

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  • 274. At 7:00pm on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    "P.S. If you're interested in routes of many U.S. supplies and troops to Afghanistan - check Kyrgyzstan. :)"

    Thanks; one would know without the announcements :o) - it is visible, just by the looks of them :o))))))) I stopped tracing it with their revolutions and who kills who at the moment. ? Who has won, the last time. ? shame on me. Either North? or still, the South?
    who even rules them, now?

    if I see a kirgiz now, I am going shopping, will ask. if they will know :o)))))))

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  • 275. At 7:02pm on 27 Nov 2010, reincarnation wrote:

    274. WebAliceinwonderland
    "Who has won, the last time. ? shame on me. Either North? or still, the South?"

    That still makes you a lot more knowledgeable than Sarah Palin! :-)

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  • 276. At 7:38pm on 27 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    242 webalice:
    in 185 I wrote to defend Gorbachev:
    "If you really believe that a man like Gorbachev would implicate his own country (and I have no doubts about his integrity and love of Russia)in such a heinous crime of mass murder on such a scale in such a cold blooded manner just to discredit his predecessors then you need your head examining.

    To which you replied in 242:
    "Margaret this is simply arrogant of you to tell me how should I like Gorbachyov, that's why I did not reply - not because I can'ty say any thing about him :o))))."

    How do you make that out? I defended Gorbachev from your horrible accusations about his questionable motives about Katyn, not to tell you to like him. On the whole, people in the West are not in habit of telling others what their politics are or should be.

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  • 277. At 7:38pm on 27 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #273 - WebAliceinwonderland

    "Threnodio at this point might review his "that's all we want from you Russia" view . . . "

    No, Alice. What I was writing about was clarifying history regarding and event that took place 70 years ago under a completely different set of circumstances. What PMK is posting about is the here and now.

    On the North Stream, I am with you. It is necessary to have an alternative supply to the west avoiding Ukraine both for the technical reasons you give and against the possibility that Ukraine will get into trouble again and that supply will be disrupted. I don't doubt the technical issues that PMK raises but he might reflect how much shorter the distance is between the Arctic region which is the source and the west going via the Baltic. The additional investment required will be returned quite quickly.

    The EU enjoys very good relations with Russia at the present time and I for one hope it is ongoing. Nevertheless, I do understand why Europe would want to find an alternative source. It is just about politics. A second supply will help to ensure competitive pricing in future years. For this reason, I also support Nabucco.

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  • 278. At 8:03pm on 27 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #276 - margaret howard

    "On the whole, people in the West are not in habit of telling others what their politics are or should be".

    Unless, of course, they happen to be English?

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  • 279. At 8:09pm on 27 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #272. At 6:33pm on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
    #269 CBW

    ---isn´t that G & T for you ?"



    No, it's definitely tosh & gibberish where You're concerned.

    Now, in my case it is Gin Lonkero - - a rather fine Finnish appellation.

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  • 280. At 8:16pm on 27 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    Alice,

    In one important respect you are right. Gorbachev enjoys something close to hero status in the west. He is highly regarded not only as the architect of the end of the Cold War but also for making it clear that there would be no intervention in liberal reforms in eastern Europe nither would anyone stand in the way should they wish to leave the Warsaw Pact and Comicon. He ensured peaceful and timely withdrawal of Soviet forces from occupation. Of course we admire him.

    But we do tend to forget that all this was seen by many Russians as betrayal. A head of government who presides over first the dismantling of an empire then the break up of his own nation is bound to be seen in that light by many. We should sometimes remind ourselves the Gorbachev era meant for many Russians.

    I sometimes wonder if the same fate does not await Obama, who still bestrides the world stage as the exemplar of the new and open America while his domestic his domestic supports seems to wane daily.

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  • 281. At 8:21pm on 27 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Alice re Russian friendly visits to Finland.



    If you read a full Wiki entry on extensive Soviet-Nazi cooperation during WWII you'll find this interesting bit:

    "the United States [which] supplied over 60% of Soviet machine and equipment, stopped armament shipments to the Soviet Union after the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. It imposed a full embargo after the Soviets 1939 invasion of Finland."

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  • 282. At 8:35pm on 27 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    AiW "Crimea it is, Crimea, the minor dear difference :o)))))))"



    And I thought, silly me, that Crimea was first and foremost Turkish (Ottoman really) and most of its original inhabitans were Crimean Tatars and Meskheti Turks.

    At one point I even thought I knew what happened to those two ethnic groups.

    Obviously my recall ability is not what it used to be. ;(

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  • 283. At 8:57pm on 27 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    AiW "There is no economic sense, for starters, in a land pipe which can be blocked by freeze-heads at any point of its way"



    So let me get it straight, Alice.

    Since the Nord Stream pipeline goes under water Moscow couldn't turn-off its spigots in winter like it did with the other (land) pipe? :-)))

    Why would then EU consider other options and try to diversify its energy supplies, as Jukka pointed out, visibly upseting gen. Putin so much?


    http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20101126/bs_afp/russiagermanyeconomyenergyputineu_20101126154628

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  • 284. At 9:07pm on 27 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    '233. At 2:39pm on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree

    My only comment is that you should enrol on an English course.

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  • 285. At 9:12pm on 27 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #264. At 5:20pm on 27 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie

    Very very good and exactly my point about the litigation, blame culture, it SUCKS and is used by the PROFITEERS and of course the legal profession who make a fortune.

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  • 286. At 9:37pm on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Buzet 23 and C_C

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/nov/15/apology-child-migrants-gordon-brown

    --only a recent example of the parasites you condemn ?

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  • 287. At 10:26pm on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    "the United States [which] supplied over 60% of Soviet machine and equipment, stopped armament shipments to the Soviet Union after the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. It imposed a full embargo after the Soviets 1939 invasion of Finland."

    ?
    ?:ol)))))
    what am I? to cry :o)))) I suppose :o)))))))

    By the way no wonder, you never knew what you were doing :o))))))))))))
    In this case you may be thought it's good and proper, that where Russian second capital ends Finland starts at once, 20 km away was it? plus-minus. Russian industrial out-put capital, at that - Leningrad.

    Very wise and proper to have Finns in love with Germany border Leningrad immediately, esp. in view of the war riping up in Europe.
    May I just remind you that should Leningrad fall - the USA to which you belonged wouldn't have her loss limited by 350,000 - but more closer to Russian dozens of millions. If you would play the game at all, of course.

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  • 288. At 10:37pm on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Haven't read the article by the link you 've given yet - I will - but even before I learn the particulars of how exactly "Gen Putin" (why Gen.? a minor sub-colonel in rank, "pod-polkovnik"; never mind) was depressed with the news of the EU diversification, I think he would be, agreed, as this gas infrustructure development, (described by Jukks above), allowing to push it back and forward, route and re-route, joining the ways into the common system - shall indeed decrease the EU's demand for Russian gas, I think some 20% loss when it's all tuned would not be a very far and wild number. Even 15% is bad enough (for us).
    So, granted, he would be disappointed by such loss of profit from the key customer, who wouldn't be.

    And how effective common systems are we know, sorry, we've implemented it the first ones around :o))))), and it's dear to see that the EU is copying Russian hi-tech :o))))) OK say brainy angle.

    I'll tell you even more, and hope I won't give away a state secret with that :o))))), it's that our electricity networks are similarly joined into one system, with the far better even tuned and established capacity to send energy back and forward and smooth out the demand, energy production over-laps and under?-enoughs? at places. USSR approach, you know :o))))))) old Sov. engineering thought. Re-copied in the Russia with new borders, and may be will happen one day in the EU as well.

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  • 289. At 10:48pm on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #287 WAI

    I do have trouble reading your postings. However I am not only surprised at your apparent nationalism -- but disappointedly shocked !

    By the way, I would not bet on my nationality being German.

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  • 290. At 10:50pm on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Pity of course Europe doesn't want to become Russian "customer for life" ;o)))), in accordnce with the lastest marketing trends advising to build alliances and customer supplier relations hooked by infrustructure one to another - for our expensive tube (or two, given the South stream) is a committment from our side to European customer. But what to do a client is always right ("until he has paid" ;o)))))))))))
    if European countries want to diversify their sources and streamline their system what can Russia do.
    Only diversify her client base as well in response :o)))))))))
    I hope they are seraching. for someone :o))))) don't see many more available around :o)))))))) all players known - in this continent which means condensing gas facilities to be built by us in future since we sat all in tubes traditionally and haven't developed those.
    it's a fleet required and condensing places and what not. but not a Newton's binom after all others do somehow.

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  • 291. At 10:54pm on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    overall - see, powermeer, I mean, how one Pole is effective :o))))) to quarrel Russia with anyone in 5 minutes :o)))))))))
    Only long training in this Polish respect, inherited genetics :o))))) save me :o))))))))

    why don't I meet and good-bye you with names of German cities now Polish?
    Because you are Polish American and I am Russian.

    And you know, powermeer, Poland will always stay Poland and nothing more with such a detailed approach. basically, that's what happened to it exactly :o)))))

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  • 292. At 10:59pm on 27 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Margaret, I believe you and understand you,

    when you say Gorbachev was good for the world ...but agree with Web Alice when she says he was bad for Russia (post-pre)

    Gorbachev believed in "glasnost" which was great for Russia....but he believed wholeheartedly in Communism--not great. He provided no transition to capitalism..

    That was Yeltsin. And it WAS Yeltsin who TOLD Gorbachev to make Russia and all the other states in the USSR independent.

    Gorbachev had a great confidence in his intellect--he was great at Peace, but not great at capitalism. Till his dying day he will rue the day Communism fell.

    Putin, unfortunately or fortunately, understands stability (too well at times, IMO) and he understands that capitalism is the only way to go.
    That is why Russians like him--he is modern and perhaps distrusts big corporations with their corrupt tax evading ways.

    I'll get it now from those "that know."

    But, I do like Gorbachev but noooooo, never would HE be elected as USA President, Web Alice.

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  • 293. At 11:17pm on 27 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #290 - WebAliceinwonderland

    Alice,

    Calm down. This is not like you. There is nothing wrong with diversification. It makes sound business sense, especially when a prime minister who apparently wants to run for president again blows his stack and calls people 'barbarians+ for doing the sensible thing. Would you want to 100% dependent for energy on a guy with a temper like that? No, Alice - Europe will be a good customer for very many years to come but it will not be held to ransom and it will do Gazprom good to have some price competition.

    Why is it such a problem St.Petersburg being 20 k from the border? It is precisely because of where it is that it has developed into a great city. Gateway to western Europe, major seaport, perfectly positioned for trade. And it is not as if you are surrounded by enemies. What is going to happen. Hordes of monstrous Estonian barbarians going to cross over one night, rape and pillage and annex everything west of the Urals then go back with all the gas they can carry are they?

    No one has got it in for you. Why are you being so defensive.

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  • 294. At 11:30pm on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    quietoak, disappointingly shocked.
    I regret it.
    I am a bit intense. :o)
    Duty calls, you know. 1 Russian should hold the area of 10 normal people, by birth obligations :o)) - otherwise what "Russia" concept.
    Just a hand-ful of people :o)))))0 left over :o)))))) in the corner.

    democracythreat, by the way, was also always disappointed with my nationalism, he abhors the very idea of country-states.
    But even he seemed to have been making us a certain discount :o), given the difficulty of the Russian Russians' task to hold the most dis-proportionate space per live person' ratio place in the world :o)))))
    Only Faith :o))))) that it's possible :o))))) keeps us afloat. If the Russian Russian species don't believe in the enterprise - who will?


    democracythreat is also, like you are, a man of the world, never wanted to tell who he is and where from. It's alright, I was just teasing.
    We don't know much beyond us, anyway ;o))))) you are "from abroad" quite an all-embracing definition enough :o))))) for a nationalistic Russian :o)))))

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  • 295. At 11:40pm on 27 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    "A second supply will help to ensure competitive pricing in future years. For this reason, I also support Nabucco."

    threnodio, as I understand it, both the South stream and Nabucco fillins are dependent on the same source - Middle Asia gas.

    Now, they are our ex and we have more expertise to arrange matters with them to have South Stream filled in.
    But then China is a player there as well and clearly wants the gas for herself.
    The current order of applicants for that gas stands as
    Russia
    the EU
    China

    but may hop over any time to become
    China
    Russia
    the EU

    or
    Russia
    China
    the EU

    or
    China
    the EU

    either way, I don't see the scenario at which the EU is Central Asia's first in line customer.

    China charms them like there is no tomorrow ;o))))) and has means for that. We held the first position in the listy of appliants for their gas only because their folks are gasterbeiting in Russia and not gasterbeiting only but staying over permanently with the second passport.

    It's either money or you take in their people - on top of the gas itself price, it seems.

    Surely things change and all, and may be you will figure out a third way to charm them :o)

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  • 296. At 11:46pm on 27 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    BTW, they are now selling a drug that prevents Aids transmission, though I know that must be off topic.

    Its named Truvada and its on the news today. If true-it works--this is great for this generation of young people.

    Especially, this is wonderful news for people in ..Africa, India and elsewhere.

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  • 297. At 11:47pm on 27 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #292 - Stevenson

    The collapse of the Warsaw Pact took place over a period of time - Kissinger's dominoes if you like. But the Soviet Union was more like a house of cards. It all happened incredibly quickly. Less than two years separate Lithuania's declaration of independence in 1990 and Gorbachev's resignation in favour of Putin in Dec. 1991. Good heavens, only 13 days separate the formal ending of the Soviet Union and Gorbachev's departure. And don't forget, as if this were not enough, he had a full scale attempted coup on his hands in August. Mercifully, the coup was unsucessful but Gorbachev's credibility was blown and the stage was set for Yeltsin. (I vividly remember that day - we were getting live pictures no commentary. A young friend was working at a hotel with a clear view of the White House so I was getting a running commentary on her mobile phone - it was a hotel Yeltsin used so she knew something of his social habits).

    Anyway, my point was that events simply moved too quickly for Gorbachv to have time to react. He tried to mount a rearguard action against the breakup but it was too little, too late. However, it is a bit harsh to blame him for presiding over it. He really did not have a lot of choice.

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  • 298. At 11:59pm on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Threnodio

    The BBC has just reported that the marriage will cost 8 billion (lost productivity etc. )

    --Financial responsibility ?

    8+8= 16 Billion !

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  • 299. At 00:01am on 28 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #295 - WebAliceinwonderland

    No, that is wrong. South Stream will carry Russian gas via the Black Sea, Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary to supply western Europe south and east of the Alps. The intention is to bypass Ukraine. Only Nabucco replies on other resources which (say Wiki) are 'Iraq in cooperation with Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, and possibly Egypt'.

    Hungary has signed up for both. There are going to be an awful lot of trenches around soon.

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  • 300. At 00:04am on 28 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #296 Stevenson

    News is 2 days old -- and I think the price is Ca $30,000 /year. (?)

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  • 301. At 00:25am on 28 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    258 webalice writes:
    "No, threnodio, am grieved to admit that Margaret understood me not literally but what I meant, anyway. "Give modern Russia borders of the USSR - and we will answer for the deed of the USSR" - that's what I meant. See no controversy in this, given the heavy hand modern 14 played in ruling and shaping up and even making to exist, in the first place - the whole USSR concept"
    Very nasty bit of old-fashioned nationalism that! What are you going to do, invade them again? Or will you give them the luxury of a referendum to decide for themselves? No I don't think so as you know full well that not a single country would voluntarily vote to rejoin the Russia of today.
    We all saw the mess you left behind in Eastern Europe after the iron curtain collapsed, the hideous 'apartment-chicken coops' for the poor workers to live in and the contamination of your industrial complexes. Who wants to return to that? And anyway, isn't your country big enough to fulfil all your needs with more than enough resources ready to be exploited?
    A cousin of mine managed to travel independently in Russia (although constantly followed by some goons in a motor car)in the 1980's before the curtain came down and she was shocked by what she found. Villages surrounded by fields with stinking,rotting potatoes and fruit going bad but nobody could harvest them as no order had been given from central government. Shops with a single potato displayed in their windows. Misery everywhere although people were surprisingly philosophical about their plight.
    The days of empire have gone and the sooner you accept that the better for world peace and the future happiness of mankind. After all, are Russians not proud of the sacrifices they made to keep their country free from foreign invaders and would they wish to force others into a union they do not want?

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  • 302. At 00:47am on 28 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    On the news it was said that generic wholesale pricing was 5000 dollars per year, QOT.

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  • 303. At 01:07am on 28 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #298 - quietoaktree

    Why on earth did you address that comment to me? I have not mentioned the wedding once.

    OK, get your facts right. They said no such thing. What they said was that the timing will create a situation in which there will be two consecutive 4 day weekends and that might cost as much as (according to the Telegraph) 5 billion. That assumes lost production because large numbers may choose to take annual leave during that period. So naturally that cost will be recovered when they do not take annual leave at other times of the year.

    "8+8= 16 Billion "

    Well done with the sums. Right answer.

    What the hell has it got to do with the wedding and what the hell has the wedding got to do with me (or you, come to that).

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  • 304. At 01:18am on 28 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    # 302 Stevenson

    --- BBC only reported the nationalistic price.

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  • 305. At 01:45am on 28 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    The BBC is the place for breaking international news--much like CNN--they do change their facts, later :)

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  • 306. At 01:47am on 28 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #303 Threodio

    Sorry --got you mixed up with CBW and Buzet 23.

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  • 307. At 01:54am on 28 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    threnodio, I think that that Russian gas we intend to send down the South Stream is from Turkmenistan :o)))))) Honest. Didn't you know Russia buys on the side? We do, for sure since the times of the Ukrainian-Russian gas conflict (I think not before).

    There existed a gas company in Russia and in Ukraine owned by Ukrainians dealing with Turkmen gas - buying it from Turkmenistan - selling it to their Russian branch - Russian branch selling it Gazprom - Gazprom selling it to Ukraine :o))))) By Ukrainians heading the business , very un-patriotically :o)))))
    The venture was blasted out during Russian-Ukrainian that winter gas war, and I got an overall impression that the business became split btw gazprom and Ukr gas :o))))), to mutual satisfaction :o))) i think the agreement re what to do with nasty those helped both countries' gas companies to agree in other issues :o) It was said to be Joushenko related business that's why Putin spoke with the girl.

    Anyway I don't know for sure, but I am sure we signed a deal ab last winter time with Turkmenistan, simply Gazprom, for their gas for years ahead.
    It's EU eats a lot from our Northern gas sites, and China eats a lot from our Northern sites, you are both in the good appetite still - to secure South Stream future - Russia signed for Turkmen gas.
    For all of it or not - I don't know. May be there is something left for Nabukko as well.

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  • 308. At 02:08am on 28 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    yes, now I remember. USSR used to buy Turkmen gas that is it was USSR, say, using it, the gas was always there developed by USSR times' Gazprom.
    In Perestroyka mess a clever Ukr chap secured a contract with Turkmenistan on their gas delivery to Ukraine.
    A private business, thus by-passing the main Ukr gas company and by-passing Russian Gazprom, but we didn't complain back then as there was more gas in Russia than customers for it, but Ukraine complained and pressed Turkmenistan what's that an in-between countries' deed not signed by major parties, why did you Turkmenistan signed for it forgetting about officials in Ukraine, we will stop their business won't be buying from them - sign with Ukr gas directly.

    Turkmenistan though held stubborn that signed and signed, they buy, sell to you, we see no problem.
    Problems began when Ukraine became very poor and couldn't allow itself to pay the premium of the in-between dealer with Turkmen gas.

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  • 309. At 02:26am on 28 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Margaret I never said I want those 14 back, neither by vote :o))))) nor by their referendum nor by grabatising them by force :o))))))

    I said "give me if you want to hang on Russia the whole USSR legacy".
    because otherwise it is un-fair.

    Baltics have since got their sponsors, Georgia their sponsors, Azerbajan their sponsors, Belorussia helps herself :o)))))))) with various our tariffs and anyway is quite bity able to stand up for itself. Ukraine I don't know how is managing, had the sponors :o)))))) lost the sponsors - but they are big and have got everything, are able to do own things.

    Russians shrank in size greatly during past 20 years and can't up-keep the gang anymore. It is as it is and how to say fine. Not fine but not that anyone wants changes here or there, suits all it seems.

    with regard to our Eastern Europe legacy, the condition we left them in, you never thought that there was always a difference between the Eastern and the Western countries - before the war.

    You don't take into account either that post-war the difference was even deeper - given that the main fights took place on the Eastern Europe side - because they happened to be betwen Germany and us.
    They were one rubble and pebbles to put it simply post-war.

    Then - USSR didn't have any Americans with their plans to help them monetary to restore theifr European half post-war.
    I understand you think that was irrelevant :o)))) - I also think that irrelevant - what was there to build from scratch on the Western Europe side? I think there most of the buildings survived.
    Fierce fighting places in Italy mostly - the only place in pebbles that I can imagine equal to those pebbles on the Eastern front.

    Anyway the restoration on our side went far slower, because Russia in charge of doing it was also pebbles :o)))), in case you forget, but I am sure you never cared. However I think from 1960-s yes, when the war after-effects were overcome, yes, it's the difference in efficiency between capitalism and socialism that played its role - why Eastern Europe was not comparable to the Western one by the time we gave it up.

    If your friend toured both Russia and any Eastern European country in 1980-s, though, and compared - she would have told you that any of Eastern Europeans (though looking in horrid state to you) - were in far better shape than their "master" :o))))) - because they were financed first, and USSR after.
    Bad as it were they had all we had and better - never worse than the USSR.

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  • 310. At 03:30am on 28 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Web Alice is there one thing you can take comfort in? Anything..."Those were the days, my friend?" ..culture can be a blessing:))))

    I hope so.

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  • 311. At 03:36am on 28 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Thhere is always Siberia--that wildness..is it your "Wild East?" I hear that cities there ..one in particular..is a high tech center of growth:))) It's near Japan--if Ever there was a crucial economic friend..don't cross them--Japan--off:)

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  • 312. At 03:44am on 28 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    And besides ..there is a saying "don't throw your pearls before swine" Jesus said that, and he was known to be wise.

    People aren't swine, but they can be oh so critical..while knowing little of what you DO know:))

    Please continue giving your perspective--I remember when your pearls were happily accepted....as a great present.

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  • 313. At 03:51am on 28 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Where is that MaudDib when you need her? Yoohoo

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  • 314. At 07:19am on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #287

    Alice, you're still in a deep denial, and that's perhaps why just like re Katyn, you simply cannot make yourself to admit that Soviet Union simply attacked small Finland without any provovation, and eventually, after Winter War (read on it) "grabatized" (to use your expression) some of its territory (S. Karelia) which new improved peaceful democratic Russia, in its new borders - somehow still occupies.

    [Just like a few Kuril Islands.]

    And which at least some Fins would like to finally get back.

    Perhaps in exchange for cheap chocolates and big lit glass reindeers.


    P.S. How it work in Shtokman Field progressing?

    [I only ask since it was supposed to supply some gas to Nord Stream]

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  • 315. At 07:49am on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "May I just remind you that should Leningrad fall - the USA to which you belonged wouldn't have her loss limited by 350,000"



    Alice I think you've confused Leningrad with STALINgrad.

    BTW. Your authorities must have been confused as well when they changed Leningrad's name to St. Petersburg but somehow forgot to change a name of the province it which it's located, so its still LENINgrad Oblast. :-)

    [you know, the province inhabitants of which spontaneously pitched in recently to erect a new monument to STALIN? Rather than in Volgograd? :)]

    BTW. Can you explain to me why Koenigsberg/Kralevec is still called KALININgrad?

    After all comrade Kalinin was not a very nice man, was he?

    And your country has nothing to do with USSR and its deeds as you've pointed out yourself many a time, right?

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  • 316. At 07:54am on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Gen Putin" (why Gen.? a minor sub-colonel in rank, "pod-polkovnik"; never mind)



    Alice, REALLY! SHAME on you!

    So you don't even know that Mr. Putin has been promoted to a rank of a full general when he became KGB chief?

    And that he's never lost that rank?

    Nor his membership in KGB?! SHOCK! SHOCK! :-)))
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    There's no such thing as a FORMER KGB agent.

    (Vladimir Vladimirovitch Putin)

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  • 317. At 08:15am on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    quietoaktree wrote:
    #287 WAI

    I do have trouble reading your postings. However I am not only surprised at your apparent nationalism -- but disappointedly shocked !

    By the way, I would not bet on my nationality being German.







    As I pointed out here long time ago some people (and you know who you are) make much of people's real or alleged nationality/ethnicity.

    As if the only thing which really mattered was what those people individually did or didn't do, caused or didn't casue, wrote or didn't write.


    So Hitler was Austrian. So was Mozart. And Webern.

    So Himmler was German. So was Goethe. And Mann.

    So Chamberlain was English. So was Turing. And Dyson.

    So Lenin was Russian. So was Sakharov and Solzhenitsyn.

    So Argentina had a military junta. But also Jose Luis Borghes.

    So US had Larry Flynt. But also Faulkner and Steinbeck.

    And of course no Soviet thug was ever Russian (they were all Jews, Georgians, Ukrainians, you name it).


    When will this jingoism finally stop?


    This is 2010 after all! :-(((

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  • 318. At 08:26am on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "And you know, powermeer, Poland will always stay Poland"



    I am hardly a nationalist, let alone Polish nationalist but since facts are facts, may I remind you that there was no country called Poland for close to 200 years. [Thanks to Prussia, Russia and Austria].

    And when it finally reemerged Soviet foreign minister, comrade Molotov, called it "a bastard of Versailles Treaty".


    BTW. There's a movie coming called "Battle of Warsaw".

    It's going to be in 3D so I am sure you'll enjoy it. :)

    [there are some Russian actors in it. Good ones, to boot.]


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  • 319. At 08:29am on 28 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #317

    powermeerkat;

    "When will this jingoism finally stop?"

    You start...

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  • 320. At 08:40am on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Stevenson: "Gorbachev had a great confidence in his intellect--he was great at Peace, but not great at capitalism. Till his dying day he will rue the day Communism fell."



    I think that's a mistake many here make.

    Gorby wanted to SAVE USSR and genuinly honestly believed that Communist system was reformable. And did his utmost to reform it.

    Which wasn't much, btw.

    [That proponent of 'glasnost' has also lied through his teeth about Chernobyl disaster until we sent SR-71 to take photos from up close]

    And you are correct that it was YELTSIN, who forced Gorby out and did was had to be done: dumping dead wood in order to save Russia proper.

    Not that many Russians appreciate that today.


    BTW. It was Yeltsin who ordered biological weapons lab in Sverdlovsk (now Yekaterinburg again) closed after a virus concoted there got out causing quite a few deathsin the town.
    And it was Mr. Putin, who, as I hear, had this abomination tacitly reactivated.

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  • 321. At 08:59am on 28 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #289. At 10:48pm on 27 Nov 2010, quietoaktree writes:

    "#287 WAI

    I do have trouble reading your postings. However I am not only surprised at your apparent nationalism -- but disappointedly shocked !

    By the way, I would not bet on my nationality being German."



    WebAlice: Never been a betting man myself.

    However, worth noting, the chump is so laggardly in his reality and confused on his contributions he forgets during his first jousts on these blogs he claimed Germany when debating relative UK & Germany prices of cars, computers, mobiles etc. with me.
    History doesn't change though as a 'revisionist' he'd wish it were so: He lost that 'prices' debate too!
    He also chooses to forget his early references to his experiences of aspects of the divided Germany.

    It's not conclusive of being 'german' as anything is possible, but german parentage, or were he a stones throw away in Austria that'd be about it.

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  • 322. At 09:14am on 28 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #303. At 01:07am on 28 Nov 2010, threnodio_II

    There was little point explaining the economics of the BBC's reporting concerning the cost of the wedding to someone who doesn't want to look past the end of his little finger.

    But as you say who cares anyway, even the TUC are in favour of the extra holiday and are asking for it to be made permanent as the UK has less public holidays than European countries. Maybe QOT might like to enthuse us with his gems of wisdom (not) on this subject and how much those extra days cost their countries. Judging by QOT's logic if each member state cuts two holidays it has saved 16 Billion and if the Irish cut all public holidays they won't need a bail-out.

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  • 323. At 09:17am on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    threnodio II to to Alice in Dreamland:

    "Would you want to 100% dependent for energy on a guy with a temper like that?"



    None other than pres. Medvedev said publicly that a increase in gas/oil prices (suppressed by the current recession) would be a disaster for Russia, since it would reinforce a view, that that country could rely, in the long run, as any other III World country such as Niger or Congo, on an export of raw materials, rather than than on building a modern industry capable of bulding exportable computers, machine-tools, airliners, not to mention microwave ovens, dish-washers, fridges, HDTV sets and 3G cell phones.


    If China could, why wouldn't Russia?

    Do you really have to buy Siemens, Samsung, LG and Sony products?

    A good question. Even if I say so myself.

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  • 324. At 09:29am on 28 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    WebAlice (& indirectly Powermeerkat)

    Don't despair.

    It's obviously Russia's turn on the spit-roast of those contributors who're convinced of their own Nationality's inate extra value: Every now & then they develop a burning desire to share their indignant outrage at the perfidity of other lesser peoples.

    Usually it is England & the English that get it, but USA & Germany have been dumped on too (& myself, I never pass up an opportunity to shed a bucketful of reality onto France's political elite): Of course all us 'anti-EU' regularly pick on that organisation whilst the 'pro-EU' lash out at anyone or anywhere that fails to repeat the mantra, 'EU is good! All else is bad!' 3 times a day whilst facing Brussels.

    The common thread is that those who launch the attacks are being open-minded, impartial and just trying to acquaint the recipient Nationality with their many faults (all with the best possible intentions - - yeah right): And the other side of that is if a representative of that attacked community responds then they are being 'nationalist', 'flag-wavers', and for sure their point of view couldn't be as reasoned & logical as those who are trying to enlighten them.

    So, in the end, its a full circle for as they say, "what goes around, comes around": Thus, whether it is 'Katyn' or 'Wounded Knee', 'Oradour sur-Glane', 'My Lai', 'Cambodia's Killing Fields', 'Bataan Death March', 'Tibet', 'Argentina's disappeared', 'Warrington bomb', 'Andijan', 'Amritsar'... we can be sure if the greek, QOT & Margaret Howard has anything to say on it, then with one ultimate refrain the conclusion will be, "It was the English!"

    Failing that the USA, and as the fall-back position it was the Russians!

    Cheers.


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  • 325. At 09:34am on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 326. At 09:41am on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

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  • 327. At 09:41am on 28 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

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  • 328. At 09:50am on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

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  • 329. At 09:59am on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Shops with a single potato displayed in their windows."



    margaret howard: a joke from one of the Soviet-"liberated" E. European countries.


    A butcher shop:

    -Good morning, do you have ham?

    -No sir, we don't.

    -Not even a Gypsy, Westphalian or Bayonne one?

    -No sir, we don't

    -Do you have pork chops?

    -No sir, we dont.

    -Do you have fillet mignon?

    -No sir, we don't

    - Do you have veal?

    -No sir , we don't


    Finally the elderly customer leaves.

    A young helper to the old butcher:

    -what a idiot! Where does he think he lives?!

    The old butcher, nostalgically:

    -Yeah, but what a memory he had!

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  • 330. At 10:18am on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Then - USSR didn't have any Americans with their plans to help them monetary to restore theifr European half post-war."



    Wrong again, Alice.

    E. Europan countries, such as Czechoslovakia and Poland were offered Marshall Plan aid, but had to refuse it on an order from Moscow.


    "Facts are stubborn things".

    [I think threnodio wrote you something about finally accepting a truth?

    which might, maybe, just maybe, set you free?]

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  • 331. At 10:26am on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Alice to margaret:


    If your friend toured both Russia and any Eastern European country in 1980-s, though, and compared - she would have told you that any of Eastern Europeans (though looking in horrid state to you) - were in far better shape than their "master" :o))))) - because they were financed first, and USSR after.
    Bad as it were they had all we had and better - never worse than the USSR.





    That's what Soviet citizens were told: that they had it bad because USSR had to 'assist' E. European Socialist republics.


    I know that many Russians believed it then, but that an academic instructor would believe this crap today...:-(((



    P.S. I remember that Soviet soldiers sent to Hungary in 1956 to suppress a popular uprising were told that they were there " to fight fascists"!

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  • 332. At 10:37am on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    champagne_charlie wrote:
    #317

    powermeerkat;

    "When will this jingoism finally stop?"

    You start...




    "America, the beautiful"

    Or "right or wrong my country"?

    Can you point to such a post of mine?

    Although I like the course USS George Washinton has taken today.

    [purely on a professional level. :-)]

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  • 333. At 11:01am on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    cool_brush_work wrote:
    Powermeerkat

    Re 'Poland'

    Get the DVD of the 'Ashes & Diamonds' trilogy. You'll have every right to be proud of Your ancestry.

    My Godfather was a Polish emigre: Married my Belge mother's niece at the end of WW2.
    He was in the Polish Airforce & fled Poland soon after the Russians entered from the East to 'liberate' & 'save' it from the Wehrmacht! Got to France & 'safety' - - 6 months later he's on the beach at Dunkirk - - where my British Army Dad was also wading into the channel 3 days & 4 nights before rescue. Didn't know each other.




    CBW

    I think I've mentioned it long time ago, answering ukwales re Battle of Britain that my father was a Polish (volunteer) officer-pilot in RAF.

    [by not means the only one]


    Volunteering for a 2nd( Bomber Command) and the 3rd (Special Ops) tour, although he was fullly aware of survival rates of such loonies.
    [I still have his 3 log-books]


    And flying all the way from Brindisi and back to aid 1944 Warsaw Uprising, and getting into German flak twice over Yugoslavia because Uncle Joe did not allow RAF planes to refuel in his domain wanting this uprising to fail, for obvious reasons.

    BTW. My dad's say that the only pilots (other than the Poles) who voulnteered for those semi-suicidal missions were Kiwis and Boers.

    Who do not get much credit for their bravery.
    Till this very day. :-(

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  • 334. At 11:14am on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

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  • 335. At 11:29am on 28 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #331 - powermeerkat

    Plus, of course, eastern Europe was the powerhouse of high end manufacturing technologies. So many examples but two that come to mind are that Czech made AK47s were infinitely superior to Russian ones and highly prized in Warsaw Pact armed forces - and elsewhere, and anything that involved sophisticated optics - microscopes, gun sights, anything that required lenses were East German - courtesy of Zeiss. There are many more examples. One thing the Russians did build well for some reason was trains. They still run on the Budapest metro - very reliable they are too.

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  • 336. At 11:51am on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

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  • 337. At 11:56am on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    margaret howar wrote:A cousin of mine managed to travel independently in Russia (although constantly followed by some goons in a motor car)





    Margaret, according to Moscow Rules (and you can check what they are) if you think you're NOT being followed always assume you are.

    You'll never be wrong. :-)

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  • 338. At 12:01pm on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

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  • 339. At 12:14pm on 28 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #322 Buzet 23

    -- more words of wisdom.

    --I have previously noted that many other societies (mainland Europe and Nordic) attempt to raise the living standard of its citizens with increasing national wealth. In Britain this ´them and us´mentality within the society has a long tradition and can even be observed on this blog.

    Two weeks holidays/year were normal in the UK as other societies were increasing to 4 and more. With the financial crises the living standard will of course decrease (and vacation days/year ? ), however some other European citizens begin at a far higher living standard before the substractions begin.

    That Buzet 23 notes the TUC would like the ´Royal´day off to become permanent is rather hypocritical, considering his repulsion of ´Socialistic tendencies´ and his attempts to uphold and defend the British societal inequalities.


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  • 340. At 12:17pm on 28 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

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  • 341. At 12:27pm on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

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  • 342. At 12:30pm on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

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  • 343. At 12:35pm on 28 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

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  • 344. At 12:39pm on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

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  • 345. At 12:47pm on 28 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

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  • 346. At 12:52pm on 28 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

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  • 347. At 12:59pm on 28 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

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  • 348. At 1:02pm on 28 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

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  • 349. At 1:17pm on 28 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #341. At 12:27pm on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat writes:
    "
    Nik, not to belabor the point..,.

    The very first modern concentration camps have been built in South Africa. [no, not for the blacks]

    But first Nazi concentration camps were definitely modeled after Soviet ones.
    [there's an ample documentation of it.]"


    There You go, fall-back position is the Russians with England taking front & centre!

    However, just to add the middle-stopover: It is generally thought in modern Historíes that as as with so many other developments the American Civil War pre-saged 'Concentration Camp' methods.
    Thus, the Confederate POW Camp Sumter (better recalled as Andersonville) though it was open only 1864-65 had 13,000 dead from 30,000 inmates; it was a new form of 'mass imprisonment' with outer & inner stockade fences & between a 'no mans land' with shoot-on-sight if any POW stepped over, plus mass insanitary latrines and feeding queues stretching 1,000+ at a time.
    The Union POW Camp Elmira was built along similar lines: A 24% Death Rate amongst 10,000 POWs in one year accounted for by a packed, insanitary compound in whihc it took 3 hours to feed them all with the Camp Commandant instructed so long as everyone was fed once between 11am & 6pm nothing more need be done with the inmates!

    Then again, what is meant by 'modern' concentration camps? Genghis Khan eliminated entire City populations in genocidal actions such as deliberate starvation & execution for all manner of things. Sad, to say the 'Jews' & 'Arabs of the Midle East fell victim to simliar tactics by the Romans.

    Anyone looking at Japan's record in China & Korea, the French in Indo-China, Spanish in south America - - said before, say again : chucking stones with so many glasshouses about is a dodgy idea.

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  • 350. At 1:19pm on 28 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Among the worlds, in shining of the stars,
    One only star name I'm repeating. :o)))))))))
    And not because I miss her. or anything :o))))))
    But because I feel I am in the dark, with others.

    And if I am ? in spleen, and dark
    With only her, I am looking for an answer :o)))))))))))))
    It's not because she's pushing the dark away
    But because with her - I do not need the light.
    _________________


    powermeer, and me. how typical. all the same talk, 500 yrs throughout :o))))
    Only the names and details are a-changing.

    Jesus Christ. Godsky Almightsky! :o)))))

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  • 351. At 1:23pm on 28 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #339. At 12:14pm on 28 Nov 2010, quietoaktree

    Just where in my post #322 did I say I favoured the TUC's comments on the extra holiday, as always you are attributing statements and opinions that were not voiced.

    I also note you did not reply to my comment as to how by your logic cutting holidays would help the crisis.

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  • 352. At 1:45pm on 28 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #339

    Unrestrained T & G!

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  • 353. At 1:48pm on 28 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #340 THROUGH TO #348


    A little moderation in the 'MODERATION' might not come amiss!

    MODS: Talk about making Yourselves a laughing stock!

    I think You will find we are all grown-ups on here & though everyone else is entirely wrong compared to my erudite contributions I'm magnaminously prepared to allow their views PUBLISHED if only to improve the shine of my own!

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  • 354. At 1:59pm on 28 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    How boring.
    Well, 10 minutes I've got.

    @314 "Alice, you're still in a deep denial." - You aren't a judge.
    "Soviet Union simply attacked small Finland without any provovation".
    After a year of joint meetings trying to buy from Finland for money - cash, and lands swaps the places Stalin thought strategic for defending Leningrad from land and water (the islands for Russian navy bases). Finland was saying neither yes nor no, being approached so intensively :o))))))) by the powerful neighbour, tried to buy time, pretended they agree in general but disagree in monetary amounts and in land swap borders, after a year couldn't drag it any longer, ran a mental counsil between themselves, decided "if we refuse they won't dare to attack" and was wrong. They were, in 4 days after the further talks were cut off by the Finnish delegation.

    Yes, grabatised, detail - same lands Finland grabatised from the USSR 20 years previously, in 1920 war. We missed those lands, got used to them somehow :o))))), in the previous couple of hundred years, and missed them all those long 20 years Finland owned it between 1920 and 1940 :o))))))

    But I understand, powermeer, you'll have a mental block here, figuring it out, as the dispute is similar to the Russian-Polish one, when Russia(USSR) in 1940 grabatised half Poland - same lands Poland grabatised from Russia (Belorussia, Lithuania and a bit of Ukraine) by winning Polish-Russian war of 1921.

    Neighbours always forgive themselves for visiting Russia with a sword, taking lands, and then stand in their shoes and they wonder, they wonder - when Russia cares to take places back home.

    "Your authorities must have been confused as well when they changed Leningrad's name to St. Petersburg but somehow forgot to change a name of the province it which it's located, so its still LENINgrad Oblast. :-)"

    We had a referendum here in case you don't know when the city was re-named back to St.Petersburg, of the region they plain forgot :o))))))
    only St. Petersburgers voted how they care to be named. It happens with the people living in the capital city that they don't think about their nearby villages or whatever. In other words when the region finally squeaked :o))))) "And what about us? You forgot about us, how typical!" :o))))) it was too late, money spent for the referendum were gone voting done :o)))) powers didn't care to start it all over again, said "in some later time". For which the region is still waiting :o)))))

    However I think they will re-name them soon into St. Petersburg region - without any asking and voting this time :o))))) and the region by the way fights tooth and nail because is scared their local powers will be taken away and absorbed into the bigger "St. petersburg" notion, whie they are currently protected a bit at least by the difference in the naming. By the way they are doing not bad on their own, un-sponsored by the city, lots of good projects came true exactly in the region, in those small towns, they find better tongue with foreign investors, and wish to keep independence.

    At the name "Leningradskaya" nobody here winks, for you it sounds "Lening and all the jazz", for us "leningrad" stands eternally for the courage in resistance - the siege - displayed. Of lenin all forgot clean, it was out-shadowed by "the siege of Leningrad" notion in the country. Who likes St. Petersburgers across, we are rated a superior brand, because of the siege.

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  • 355. At 2:03pm on 28 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Not superior brand, but "preferred one".

    the country was receiving their portions of evacuated Leningraders during the war, for recuperation, in the shape of dried up mummies from hunger, to who it was dangerous to give food as it ended by death at once, only slowly increasing the portions. All un-occupied were, how to say, deeply impressed.

    Old habits die hard, and to this day ;o)))))0 seeing a St. Petersburger, folks in other places here comment "ah, same skinny" :o))))) "we know we can't feed you so much at once :o0000 so have a morsel ;o)))) and muscovites are plain disaster the first question always being "you are still on ration cards, aren't you?" :o)))))

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  • 356. At 2:12pm on 28 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    "And your country has nothing to do with USSR and its deeds as you've pointed out yourself many a time, right?"

    No, why? We stem out of it, directly, our roots.

    "Alice I think you've confused Leningrad with STALINgrad."
    No, Leningrad was startegically important as it didn't sat silly quiet dying in siege but continued the out-put of all machinery for the front. Tanks slid out of production ine and straight to the front. It was the main industrial centre as I said.
    Stalingrad was important for not surrending oil fields in the South, as Germans would have reached them down the Volga that's it, and it was how to say un-desirable :o)))), that Germans have access to benzine supplies inside Russia. We kind of needed these for our own army :o)

    Plus the very city's name was an attractant no doubt. If they were clevefr they'd just leave it alone, turn around igt, and proceeded down the river to the oil. Lucky, one can always count that not only you in war will be stupid but that the other side will also always do their share of strategic mistakes.

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  • 357. At 2:14pm on 28 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #353 - cool_brush_work

    Interesting. I suppose we could all get hammered for being off topic but have you noticed that there is one poster who does not appear in the withdrawn ones. I smell mischief. Let's see what happens to this one.

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  • 358. At 2:17pm on 28 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #298 #339

    quietoaktree;

    It seems to me that in the same exchange you have both criticised the UK for not having enough public holidays AND criticised the UK for arranging a public holiday. By all means correct me if i'm wrong.

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  • 359. At 2:21pm on 28 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    "So you don't even know that Mr. Putin has been promoted to a rank of a full general when he became KGB chief?"

    No, didn't know, and no one here does. Surely he got heaps of higher ranks awards and whatever after Yeltsin put an eye on him as a successor, but we all think this doesn't count, as it's promotion over one's head, or how it is called, not due to ordinary circumstances and based on own achievements. We had Brezhnev packed in medals and ranks all over no place to clip an additional rank or title on him :o))))) only sleeves left :o))))) It happens, when one gets to power all start awarding him (Nobel peace prizes for that matter :o)))))) and all.

    But by himself in KGB our VVP serviced up to quite modest ranks. I don't know the statistics, but I think people in this rank were counted in thousands in Russia.

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  • 360. At 2:22pm on 28 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    342 powermeer writes:
    "Alice wrote earlier that all them former Soviet republics would gladly rejoin USSR.
    Very funny, indeed."
    Yes, all in all I have never heard so many excuses to justify a very unpleasant type of nationalism - we have a right to demand back countries that didn't belong to us in the first place. I hope the Russian bear isn't sharpening its claws again and this is just Alice's personal opinion. But I must say I wasn't surprised when she put threnodio right when she wrote at 258:
    "No, threnodio, am grieved to admit that Margaret understood me not literally but what I meant, anyway. "Give modern Russia borders of the USSR - and we will answer for the deed of the USSR" - that's what I meant. See no controversy in this, given the heavy hand modern 14 played in ruling and shaping up and even making to exist, in the first place - the whole USSR concept."
    I only hope for the sake of those poor countries involved that she is expressing a personal view and not one widespread in Russia. The country is vast, full of natural resources to make it wealthy without stealing from its neighbours.
    Incidentally you are right about the South African concentration camps - they were the model for Hitler to copy and were the first camps to incarcerate CIVILIANS in the world. There is a memorial to the Boer women and children who died there, I think it was 28 000 of them but as far as I know still no mention of the 20 000 or so black S African servants who died with them and are still seemingly treated as second class citizens.

    Thanks for the 'butcher shop' story - I shall have to stop moaning when confronted in my local supermarket by about forty different types of, say, coffee and can't make up my mind which to choose!

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  • 361. At 2:39pm on 28 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    "There's no such thing as a FORMER KGB agent."
    Catchy phrase. As most of yours, unsubstantiated, are :o)))))))))))
    There is no such thing as former any special services' agent. I think.
    They retire or take other jobs formally, but I think are never left totaly unattended by their respective states.

    "not to mention microwave ovens, dish-washers, fridges, HDTV sets and 3G cell phones.
    If China could, why wouldn't Russia?
    Do you really have to buy Siemens, Samsung, LG and Sony products?"

    China copies Western technology like there is no tomorrow. Full internet in Russia is full of ads "buy Nokia copy cheaper than the original andc better than it is twice :o))))) and same with iphones and what not. Just send the money to you don't know who and they will send you back the thing from unknown where. By the way they do, it's only with any service issues there is no where to address after :o))))) But I am sure China will figure out what to do with post-sale servicing as well , onde of near days :o))))))
    Anyway it's a subject for a long discussion but I think yes, we've been always behind in electronics and it will be silly to start catching up, better something own to develop, than the old things. I think Russian fridges are still the best :o)))) (they always were like tanks :o)))))and these days they even learned not to gobble up electricity by cheap electricity Soviet stasndards, but consume it economicaly, like theier Western cousins :o)))) But for wash mach it's Bosch or Italian, and, how to say, we have our preferences, will never buy a Russian TV :o)))))) whatever they say :o)))))) But will and am happy with air heaters various radiators electric, convectors and all.
    It depends on the appliance some we can do some will never even if the sky falls down on earth :o))))) So, yes, will buy foreign and without any wink of worry why not local.

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  • 362. At 2:59pm on 28 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    "I am hardly a nationalist, let alone Polish nationalist but since facts are facts, may I remind you that there was no country called Poland for close to 200 years. [Thanks to Prussia, Russia and Austria]."

    Well we always listed you as Poland separate thing even when you were part of us. One can't get mistaken in this respect :o))))))))) mixing Poland with any thing else - never.

    "Thanks to Russia-Prussia etc."

    one would think Poland will stop eventually its main business that is winding up spirits between Russia and Europe beyond Poland but Poland seems not giving up :o)))) I simply wonder sometimes does it seem to them they have re-located some other place? geographically? think that there are any other routes for Russia and Germany "to meet" :o))))), say, in case of any thing - anywhere by Poland? That, if we get quarreled the next time, we'll arrange our rendezvous some place in the Bahamas :o))))))
    Poland is still working on it, with a persistence worthy of better application :o))))) - and then will whine as usual - oh why it is again poor us!

    Reminds me how USSR wanted to scale German appetites down a little bit, just do a minor refreshment, balancing the outlook slightly, before the great war began. Namely - answering the call of Chechoslovakia occupied, with who USSR was in mutual defence agreement, and who provided us the best secret services' eh services from Europe, reporting Stalin on European developments. A spy agreement we had with Chechoslovakia, while others were far less inclined to keep friends with us - so they were very dear indeed to the Stalin's heart.
    And what do you think - to the formal request to let Red Army pass through Poland to Chechoslovakia - Poand replied forget about it:o)))))

    Was asked again and again - with the same cold shower response always.

    Finally, Stalin asked for the Soviet Air Force to fly over Poland, since they were cleary cataleptical about the notion of Russians stepping on their land, in simple physical terms, and thus beyond any reasoning. Only airplanes, by agreeed schedule, in agreed quantities.

    Poland replied that "will not ony allow, but will shoot down any airplane crossing our air-space from the Russian side."

    Ever friendly and agreeable, ever reaping the fruit after.

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  • 363. At 3:22pm on 28 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    "You've been buying Turkmen gas dirt cheap (at gun point) and reselling it as your own to EU at double price. For years.

    And that's why Turkmenistan has been so eager to connect to Baku-Ceyhan pipeline, and to Nabucco, as well as to a new pipeline to China.

    Opressed proletariat will always eventually rise against their imperalistic opressors.

    Haven't they taught you that at school?"

    :o))))))

    Dear to see; unable to agree with Turkmens yourself, blame Russia that it does so "at gun-point". Green are the grapes! said the Fox. :o))))))

    Turkmenistan is indeed a hard-nut, it's a deep deep South very deeply set in their rules and ways, I think and American there will do a dozen mistakes to be turned down during the very first 5 minutes of walking down from the airplane (and on the carpet) to the meeting delegation in the airport. And will be turned down before says the first hello:o))))))

    In short, Turkmen-Bashee their leader formal title (presented in multipe whole gold statues as well in full (inflated :o) height in the environs :o))))) doesn't want any Westerners because doesn't fancy any revolutions :))) No "gun-points". Just Putin's honest word he is not after up-turning their powers and ways and habits :o))))))) No democracy between two gentlemen guaranteed, no where in hidden back thoughts!

    And Putin, for that matter, is widely known (here) for two positive features - sporty a.) never surrenders "his" folk - b/

    True those to who he gave his friendship oath :o))))0 often happen to be extremely ugly :o)))))) but sometimes initially they aren't - but when they do fail - he never gives up on those. a certain reliability in the leader who doesn't sway with the wind.

    So Turkmen-bashee is simply scared of foreigners, as he sees what is taking place in the various -stans around. Whatever they'll say that they are only after gas and not his powers he won't believe it as he rightly suspects one can't change the Westerners :o))))))

    No "gun-points", powermeer, between Turkmenistan and us. All exclusively on best mutual relations and complete understanding of problems of each other :o))))) Last time he visited, Turkmen-basee said "I will always have gas for my dear friend Russia."

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  • 364. At 3:27pm on 28 Nov 2010, Jukka Rohila wrote:

    To WebAliceinwonderland (354):

    I do have to intervene on your view of history...

    First of all, land belongs to the people that inhibit it. Gulf of Finland has been inhibited by Finno-Ugric people for the last few thousand years. Russians as an ethnic group have arrived later to the area, most of them after Tsar Peter decided to build St. Petersburg.

    Secondly Finland after gaining its independence had the same borders as the Grand Duchy of Finland had. Grand Duchy of Finland itself was largely based on the same borders as Finland had when it was a province of Sweden.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Finland
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Finland

    Do note that Vyborg was founded by the Sweds.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyborg

    Now lets go back to Karelia. One part of Karelia belonged to Finland and it was inhabited by Karealians, a tribe of Finns. The another part of Karelia belonged first to the Russian empire and then to the Soviet Union. From the point of view of nationality and nation state, all Karelians and Karelia should have been part of Finland. This was the context and idea behind people that between 1918 and 1922 fought in Karelia, they wanted to liberate Finnish people inside the Soviet Union. However that fight didn't lead to any border changes between Finland and Soviet Union.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimosodat

    Finland and Finns didn't grabatize Karelia, it was part of Finland. The Finnish Karelia belonged to the Karelians that were and wanted to be part of Finland. After the winter war and continuation war, all Finnish citizens were evacuated from Karelia, non were left behind. Included with those evacuated were both of my grand mothers, one ethnic Russian, one ethnic Finn. When they left Karelia, Karelia died and became just another part of Russia.

    You know, you should be lucky that current day Finns are rational and accept history and what has happened and don't want to make changes based on it: for example insist on getting historic lands back. However you really shouldn't push your luck on justifying the annexation of Karelia by the Soviet Union, it was a historic injustice that costed people their land that they had for countless generations inhabited. For example both my grand mothers lost their farms, houses and everything they had, everything had to be left there.

    Now again, I'm not making any demands or demanding that there should be re-compensation for losses. Just please don't try to justify actions of the Soviet Union, they are not justifiable.

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  • 365. At 3:34pm on 28 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Margaret what is it with you? I said we don't want back the 14 ex, you conclude "I hope it's only Alice's private opinion that she does and that the bear isn't sharpening its claws again at the poor small ones"

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  • 366. At 3:59pm on 28 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    "That's what Soviet citizens were told: that they had it bad because USSR had to 'assist' E. European Socialist republics.


    I know that many Russians believed it then, but that an academic instructor would believe this crap today...:-((( "

    No; how come "told". Quite the opposite, we were told that Eastern European countries chose to keep with communism of absoutey own council :o))))))), seeing the advantages of the new organisational model, and that they are very good at it, far more advanced than we are in many respects, in short the general message was Eastern Europe, Cuba and Africa genuinely like to be communistic, so don't you dear USSR-ians think we are just one such idiots in the world" :o))))))

    While dear USSR-ians exactly thought that they half-heartely and with a very heavy heart barely agree to pretend they are communistic only because they are financed, and in the case of Eastern Europe - besieged as well, as the Russian old wisdom is no country is independent while has foreign troops on the ground.

    Kremlin, on the other side, tried to present it as best as they could that we have nothing to do with the Eastern Europe, they are their own countries doing what they please, and surely not for money, and that Soveit garrisons are there only because those absolutely their own and independent countries are also scared of nasty capitalists and that's why chose to join the Warsaw block. And as that is a miitary block - therefore our army there.


    You really think that 250 million USSR people haven't had a singe own thought re the arrangement and their government for 70 years?
    Very hilarious idea. how to say.

    We thought the Eastern countries are in the Warsaw block exacty because they are bought and threatened simultaneously, that they don't give a anyway about us or any communism, and will quit the very second USSR stops sponsoring them. Which by the way has happened, when the finance stream got shallow and became a total draught when oil prices slammed down. All became very brave at once, the difference being their rulers became brave as well, understanding that they can't run the entities further with USSR poor behind, and new thinking how to say, emerged :o))))) as a model.

    Very few Russians visited The Warsaw block countries in USSR times, it was a highest privilege here, on own how to say desire and accord to go, like a simple tourist, and not a member of some governemnt sent construction or engineering team, for export of Chechoslovakian buses or whatever, something technical wanted, ship-building co-operation.

    It was simply not recommended, because every returning Russian boasted then for centuries around with the goods he has seen and what he had bought, and how incredibly nice they live there.

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  • 367. At 4:40pm on 28 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    I notice here what is beginning to look like a duality of standards going on here. Yes, we are way off topic but there is nothing new about this. Mark Mardel used occasionally to disappear on an assignment for a few days and we would all wander off into remote territory. Nobody seemed to mind.

    What is happening here is far more sinister. It seems that it is OK for people to vent their spleen if it involves Poland or Finland but not to hold a civilised exchange about Hungary. We even have responses appearing to posts which have disappeared. We were not born yesterday and the explanation is fairly obvious. Someone has seen fit to scroll through this thread conducting an exercise in wholesale referral. Two points arise. One is that the mentality of someone who would rather throw an entire thread into disarray than either withdraw or confront their opponents is not only interfering in free speech but betraying his or her own unfitness to be in this community. Instead of lifting innocuous comments in bulk, the moderators should be investigating what an earth is going on.

    None of this is happening on other threads. It is unique to the Euroblog and requires dealing with in an adult way before some of us start to wonder whether the blog is worth the candle.

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  • 368. At 4:55pm on 28 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    I don't get it, Jukks, where it was written in holy scripts, that "Karelia should be part of Finland". Grand Duchy may have had it, but post 1917 you were not Grand Duchy but a new entity. There isn't a law that when a new country is formed it inherits all it had in the previous whatever status. Such practice is not observed worldwide, anyway, most actually pay for independence dearly, and yes, lose lands become sovereign in compensation. Like Russia, for example, did.
    Re pushing our luck let's not even start it. We have discussed it long time ago, about "compensations", for Russians in your concentration camps, in particular, and for those Russians who your drove away from the same Karelia who "had to leave their houses" in 1918, and what not.

    By "historical justice", who lived where, if I start it, Margaret Howard
    will have a heart-break :o))))) and will become sure that the "bear" not only sharpens his teeth in advance, but will start checking her back door if he's already there sitting on the porch :o)))))

    Which reminds me the bear is "she". British invention to call Russia so, and the first pictures were always she-bear. So "a she-bear", on the porch :o)))))

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  • 369. At 5:02pm on 28 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    @367 - Yes, group disappearance of comments, referred to the moderators by someone here, in bulk. I give up on Russia :o), Poland and Finland and what not let's figure out what is happening. Why not to talk about Hungary is beyond me. Especially that all other topics raised up here have been discussed many times over by this very audience already, while Hungary - was never the point of attention.

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  • 370. At 5:05pm on 28 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Threnodio

    Re #340 to #348

    I've given the MODS time to see if some got published, but nothing has changed.

    Like You I smell a 'rat' in the the exchanges: The distinct odour of Stasi-style build-up with lots of hollering about the 'others' playing tricks followed curiously by the 'others' all getting done over by dirty tricks!

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  • 371. At 5:11pm on 28 Nov 2010, reincarnation wrote:

    368. WebAliceinwonderland
    "There isn't a law that when a new country is formed it inherits all it had in the previous whatever status."

    True. There are many previous borders for every country. I'm quite glad that Scotland has only one land border - and we largely settled that border in the 15th century. We don't need to bother about "ethnicity" either. Scots and English are both mongrel nations.

    When Scotland eventually votes for independence, we won't be fighting over the status of Berwick. If the people there want to rejoin Scotland, then we'll be happy to take them back, but that's a matter for those who live there. As Jukka said "land belongs to the people that inhabit it". Much as I would have liked Berwick to remain Scots, there are lots of mongrel English there as well as mongrel Scots. Let them decide.

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  • 372. At 5:11pm on 28 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    To: MODERATORS

    And, while I'm on the subject MODS.

    Kindly STICK TO YOUR 'HOUSE RULES'.

    I'm still WAITING for an explanation by E-mail for WHY my #145 comment at 9.59 on 23 Nov 2010 on 'The Irish Fall Out' was REMOVED?

    Either You do the job You claim to be doing even-handed, or You don't do it at all!
    Send me the relevant E-mail or PUBLISH my #145.

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  • 373. At 5:55pm on 28 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    340. At 12:17pm on 28 Nov 2010, you wrote:
    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

    341. At 12:27pm on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

    342. At 12:30pm on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

    343. At 12:35pm on 28 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

    344. At 12:39pm on 28 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

    345. At 12:47pm on 28 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:
    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

    346. At 12:52pm on 28 Nov 2010, you wrote:
    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

    347. At 12:59pm on 28 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:
    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

    348. At 1:02pm on 28 Nov 2010, you wrote:
    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------


    These comments have been referred for further consideration. Explain


    ... please! Haha! Should we start talking LoL! or something!

    And then we have CBW

    372. At 5:11pm on 28 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
    """To: MODERATORS
    And, while I'm on the subject MODS.
    Kindly STICK TO YOUR 'HOUSE RULES'.
    I'm still WAITING for an explanation by E-mail for WHY my #145 comment at 9.59 on 23 Nov 2010 on 'The Irish Fall Out' was REMOVED?"""

    It is alright CBW! Let us get back to our main issue! Which was Ireland but through Korea passed to Russian projects and such... Interesting.

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  • 374. At 6:01pm on 28 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    369. At 5:02pm on 28 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:
    """@367 - Yes, group disappearance of comments, referred to the moderators by someone here, in bulk...."""

    I think he aimed at 1 commentator particularly and he did the rest to hide his intention, i.e. a cover up. Haha!

    Previously you said:
    """It was simply not recommended, because every returning Russian boasted then for centuries around with the goods he has seen and what he had bought, and how incredibly nice they live there."""

    Hehehe... I mean whatever the financial position of a given Russian it is bound to return to cold frozen Russia and dream of the place he visited and how wonderful it is to live there... ehehehe!!!

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  • 375. At 6:19pm on 28 Nov 2010, MaudDib wrote:

    I'm looking to move. I want to go to a place where no evil or atrocity has ever been committed. Somewhere the people are proud of who they are and what they stand for. No central bankers, no CDS. Something like a "Candy Mountain".

    "One evening as the sun went down
    And the jungle fires were burning,
    Down the track came a hobo hiking,
    And he said, "Boys, I'm not turning
    I'm headed for a land that's far away
    Besides the crystal fountains
    So come with me, we'll go and see
    The Big Rock Candy Mountains

    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains,
    There's a land that's fair and bright,
    Where the handouts grow on bushes
    And you sleep out every night.
    Where the boxcars all are empty
    And the sun shines every day
    And the birds and the bees
    And the cigarette trees
    The lemonade springs
    Where the bluebird sings
    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.

    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
    All the cops have wooden legs
    And the bulldogs all have rubber teeth
    And the hens lay soft-boiled eggs
    The farmers' trees are full of fruit
    And the barns are full of hay
    Oh I'm bound to go
    Where there ain't no snow
    Where the rain don't fall
    The winds don't blow
    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.

    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
    You never change your socks
    And the little streams of alcohol
    Come trickling down the rocks
    The brakemen have to tip their hats
    And the railway bulls are blind
    There's a lake of stew
    And of whiskey too
    You can paddle all around it
    In a big canoe
    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains

    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains,
    The jails are made of tin.
    And you can walk right out again,
    As soon as you are in.
    There ain't no short-handled shovels,
    No axes, saws nor picks,
    I'm bound to stay
    Where you sleep all day,
    Where they hung the jerk
    That invented work
    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.
    ....
    I'll see you all this coming fall
    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains"

    Alice feel free to grabatize this song if you like.

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  • 376. At 6:28pm on 28 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "353. At 1:48pm on 28 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
    Re #340 THROUGH TO #348


    A little moderation in the 'MODERATION' might not come amiss!

    MODS: Talk about making Yourselves a laughing stock!"

    Maybe this weblog is not mentioned to be a chitchat channel of five or six old timers who write the same old stuff about male cows: bulls. Old timers who fill 80 percent of all messages. But what do I know?

    That I noticed when someone like me brings different view against the holy Pound what british yellow press is blared for years and years, the old timers hit the newcomer with silly comments. If I had been moderator here I would have cut halve of your old timers messages at least after #100.

    The laughing Stock is totally other Bulls than moderators.

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  • 377. At 6:35pm on 28 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Pate, what age IS an oldtimer?

    Curious David

    :)

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  • 378. At 6:49pm on 28 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "364. At 3:27pm on 28 Nov 2010, Jukka Rohila wrote:
    To WebAliceinwonderland (354):
    Now lets go back to Karelia. One part of Karelia belonged to Finland and it was inhabited by Karealians, a tribe of Finns."

    Russian president Boris Yeltsin was ready to sell Carelia back to you in 1990 russians economic depression. Finland's president Mauno Koivisti did not have the balls and brains to buy it back. Or maybe he did not want it back. There's plenty of land in Finland, more than in UK: Fin 338.424 km2/ UK 243.610 km2. So why wine about it?

    The future is here, not the past.

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  • 379. At 6:53pm on 28 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #367. At 4:40pm on 28 Nov 2010, threnodio_II

    I could not agree more, I am beginning to think it's time to refer the moderators to a higher level if they are so easy manipulated, and I don't mean just with the fairly useless BBC complaints level. The Labour party is no longer in charge of the BBC even if its employees still act as if it was, and as most know, nothing lasts for ever!

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  • 380. At 6:58pm on 28 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #369. At 5:02pm on 28 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland

    Don't worry Alice, they'll soon run out of targets and turn on themselves after all that's what most low life animals do eventually.

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  • 381. At 6:59pm on 28 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "377. At 6:35pm on 28 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:
    Pate, what age IS an oldtimer?

    Curious David"

    Well, Stevenson, somebody called me 12-years old in here so it must be those over twelve.

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  • 382. At 7:05pm on 28 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #376. At 6:28pm on 28 Nov 2010, Pate

    Very well done Pate, you seem to have put yourself in the frame to be voted off the blog as being not only the least interesting but the least capable in writing in English. Normally that does not worry any English native speaker as this is an English speaking blog and all efforts no matter how poor are welcome and we are pleased to help. However in your case you are one of a very few who may have been responsible for the referring and your post puts you in the lead.

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  • 383. At 7:06pm on 28 Nov 2010, MaudDib wrote:

    313. David

    Alice can dang well take care of herself. Me, I follow the advice of that great American philosopher Charlie Brown. I refuse to get into an argument about religion, politics or the Great Pumpkin.

    Why shouldn't Alice take up for Russia. She's a Russian for God's sake. It's natural and one shouldn't go against Mother Nature.

    And by the way, for the umpteenth time. I'm a he with no s. No problem though. I'm reminded of Ray Johnson.

    "My name is Raymond J. Johnson, Jr. Now you can call me Ray, or you can call me J, or you can call me Johnny, or you can call me Sonny, or you can call me Junie, or you can call me Ray J, or you can call me RJ, or you can call me RJJ, or you can call me RJJ Jr. .....but you doesn't hasta call me Mr. Johnson!"

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  • 384. At 7:24pm on 28 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    well one thing "old timers" of here can be credited with, Pate, is they don't refer, it's one of the informal "rules" of the blog.
    While one refers, he/she is still a newcomer :o)))))

    For example: :o))))))))) I referred powermeer! :o)))))
    once, angry with his characteristics of our precious Catherine the II. after he referred me (several times) and promised to extract out of here altogether. that's all.

    Even we with Jukks didn't refer each other while writing absolutely horrid things once (we once quarrelled for nearly 500! posts face-to-face, only two of us :o))))), the rest stepping back in admiration :o))))) shock and awe :o)))) and I vaguely think the thread was NOT about ether Russia or Finland :o)))

    MaudDib a very good and very timely song I will learn the words. will may be find the tune in the internet.
    I also began with poetry today but it vanished :o)))) didn't include the year (the year is before Lermontov as he commented on that Russian poet, so must be 1820 ish 1810 ish something.
    And it was about stars and shine and light :o))

    I think the timers :o) of all kinds here must develop a new rule that is to read the blog fresh, while the posts are still there :o))))
    May be to attend a speedy-reading course :o)))), as well :o)))
    As speed of reaction will be of essence.

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  • 385. At 7:36pm on 28 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "382. At 7:05pm on 28 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
    ...Very well done Pate, you seem to have put yourself in the frame to be voted off the blog as being not only the least interesting but the least capable in writing in English. Normally that does not worry any English native speaker as this is an English speaking blog and all efforts no matter how poor are welcome and we are pleased to help. However in your case you are one of a very few who may have been responsible for the referring and your post puts you in the lead."

    You have all the ill meaning, but where is the famous english wit? Without it your message is only lame dirt. It will never be famous english irony. Just read it yourself? What? Bull.

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  • 386. At 7:41pm on 28 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    "he-he", Nik, :o))))

    I've got excellent weather! Just minus 14! knee-deep in snow! :o)))))
    don't understand your "he-he" :o)))))), at all!

    By the way do you know that this a repellent not only to un-invited guests :o)))), but in-between the big arrivals has also served us well in sanitary aspects. Namely, if you leave your house for a day in winter and go to neighbours to spend a night, the next day and for a year ahead your modest hut is insects-free :o))))))) And ants, and bugs, and cock those roaches, they kick the bucket at once :o))))) Without any chemistry applied mind it, and what chemistry in those back centuries anyway.

    So we are saving! greatly :o))))) At least, something.
    besides you can skip the fridge. I switched it off in the dacha in September :o)))) What for if it is plus 4 in the verandah very steady inside :o)))) And only when apples inside the house, strategically deposited along the window frames began freezing up at nights :o), (not good for apples you want to keep) well I thought of putting them into the fridge :o)))) to give them some warmth:o))))

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  • 387. At 7:54pm on 28 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #376. At 6:28pm on 28 Nov 2010, Pate writes:

    "353. At 1:48pm on 28 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
    Re #340 THROUGH TO #348
    A little moderation in the 'MODERATION' might not come amiss!

    MODS: Talk about making Yourselves a laughing stock!"

    "Maybe this weblog is not mentioned to be a chitchat channel of five or six old timers who write the same old stuff about male cows: bulls. Old timers who fill 80 percent of all messages. But what do I know?"



    Hang on a minute, pate, mate!

    Who appointed You the Blog God!?

    Look, I categorically disagree & at times loathe the content of some on here, BUT, they are ALL fully entitled to have their say. I am equally sure some on this blog resent every word I write, BUT, so far as I'm aware they accept the basic DEMOCRATIC CONCEPT that we each have a right to express an opinion and be read by those who would then shoot down everything we say.

    It is the CONTENT of the contributions that is at issue on these Blogs: NOT whether or not someone has a right to make a contribution.
    You should mind Your business, write Your points of view, accept others will do likewise and leave that MODERATION process to the people who enjoy playing at God in the Moderation booth!

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  • 388. At 8:07pm on 28 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #373. At 5:55pm on 28 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:It is alright CBW! Let us get back to our main issue! Which was Ireland but through Korea passed to Russian projects and such... Interesting.

    AND,

    Re #374. At 6:01pm on 28 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:
    369. At 5:02pm on 28 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:
    """@367 - Yes, group disappearance of comments, referred to the moderators by someone here, in bulk...."""
    "I think he aimed at 1 commentator particularly and he did the rest to hide his intention, i.e. a cover up. Haha!"


    NIK, I will call You that for this 'Moderation' issue: If by chance You're at the back of this multiple referral then it is a disgrace.
    I can't think that You did, but even to hint it is somehow 'funny' to have various comments censored on a Blog such as this really does call into question even more seriously Your overall sense of reality.

    I hope & trust it was not You: As I do for all those who are regular contributors - - I would like to assume it was some silly individual who does not normally join-in - - however, there are curious coincidences such as QOT remarkably not figuring, but then is that too obvious?

    We'll never know for sure.

    All we can hope is that whomever it is they have got the foolishness out of their system and will allow this blog debate in future to continue uninterrupted.

    If it is just an aberration by the BBC Moderators then will they PLEASE consider the effect on all contributors because Mr Hewitt will surely NOT want a Blog that nobody bothers to write-in as we are CENSORED for NO GOOD REASON.


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  • 389. At 8:39pm on 28 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #385. At 7:36pm on 28 Nov 2010, Pate

    There is a time and place for wit and humour and whoever referred all those posts used neither, they reduced themselves to the lowest possible level alongside all fanatics and extremists who can not tolerate any opinion other than their own. If that was you then you are a truly sad example of humanity and not worthy of normal discourse from us. If it was not you then I suggest you learn what the word debating means, associated words that go well with debating are wit and humour.

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  • 390. At 8:50pm on 28 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "Hang on a minute, pate, mate!

    Who appointed You the Blog God!?"

    You, just now. I think it's my destiny. I'm the Neo, the one.

    Anyway, it needs a little bit understanding: if you want to shitchat, you go to chitchat channel. If you have something new to say about news, go to news blogs. Well that was simple ash that. I'll just hope they don't downsize me now from this Blog God job.

    ps. and sorry about my English, I thought it was Dutch.

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  • 391. At 8:54pm on 28 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "389. At 8:39pm on 28 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
    ... you are a truly sad example of humanity and not worthy of normal discourse from us."

    Thank you about that. That will make me a stronger human being.
    Love you too,
    Pate.

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  • 392. At 9:14pm on 28 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #360. At 2:22pm on 28 Nov 2010, margaret howard writes:

    "..Incidentally you are right about the South African concentration camps - they were the model for Hitler to copy and were the first camps to incarcerate CIVILIANS in the world. There is a memorial to the Boer women and children who died there, I think it was 28 000 of them but as far as I know still no mention of the 20 000 or so black S African servants who died with them and are still seemingly treated as second class citizens."



    As usual Margaret, a little knowledge and You become dangerously out-of-touch with reality.

    No, the South African Concentration Camps set-up by the British circa 1899-1902 for incarcerating Boers were NOT the "..first.." for "..civilians.." in the World.

    Why don't You ever check Your sources and do proper research?

    Ever heard of the Russian 'Pale of Settlement' for Jews in the 19th Century - - try looking up 'confinement'/'internment' orders that Tsars applied - - camps don't have to have wire to be centres of incarceration?

    Ever read anything about the USA 19th Century 'internment camps' for Native American Indians - - try as early as 1838 & the 'Trail of Tears' history of the Cherokee nation - - I commend Dickerson's book, 'Inside America's Concentration Camps' to You.

    Then again, there's Camp Cabrera in the Balearic Islands - - Napoleonic POWs of the British from 1809 to 1814 - - however it was Spanish run.

    Still on the Napoleonic route - - there's Haiti - - where Napoleon's forces are alleged to have imprisoned hundreds in 'hulk' ships and some Historians (see France's Claude Ribbe) claim 'gas' was used to annihilate the unfortunate 'black' inmates... I'm unsure as to the basis for this, but You could google for us all and learn for Yourself! It is common knowledge Hitler admired 'boney' more than any other Military figure in History, so perhaps he picked up a few tips during his research!?

    Bssically, History is littered with 'interned'/'imprisoned'/'caged' masses of people - - if we think of the early Christian Martyrs captivity before their Coliseum 'show-piece' - - I know, we've all seen the Hollywood epic, but Margaret those things went on for years with masses waiting their turn!
    Look-up the Romano-Latin script for 'Concentration' of 'Peoples' - - it's an education in History.
    Or (& this will please your greek mate), why not research the Kurds & Armenians in the 19th century Ottoman Empire - - You'll amaze Yourself with the amount You'll learn about the longterm confinement of masses of people.

    Now Margaret, before You launch another bilious attack (as in the Ireland debate) upon me let me state clearly because I know You struggle with comprehension:

    1) I agree the British C C were heinous and criminal operations by all norms of moral-ethical standards
    2) I agree they were the first of the 20th century
    3) I agree they are a terrible stain on the UK's South Africa

    I write in this manner because the laziness of some on this blog astonishes me when it comes to History: They take as a given catch-phrases they've picked up over years (e.g. 'First concentration camps were British') and whilst it is convenient it aint necessarily so!

    Have You got that?

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  • 393. At 9:18pm on 28 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Buzet 23 and C_C

    #286 is more important for you to answer.

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  • 394. At 9:33pm on 28 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #390. At 8:50pm on 28 Nov 2010, Pate wrote:

    "..if you want to ***shitchat***, you go to chitchat channel.."


    Oh dear, there's another of the classic 'pro-EU' among us with that high-brow commentary!

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  • 395. At 9:40pm on 28 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Boy, that was a Mod massacre !

    -- any of us Geriatrics still kicking ?

    -- is that Buzet twitching in the corner ?

    ---CBW looking for his rocking horse ?

    --- and Threnodio his dentures ?

    I leave for a few hours and the youth Hostel is flattened !

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  • 396. At 9:51pm on 28 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #393. At 9:18pm on 28 Nov 2010, quietoaktree writes:

    "Buzet 23 and C_C

    #286 is more important for you to answer."




    Re #286 and its link to a well documented UK Policy of the 20th century which has had articles, tv documentaries & films made about it (as early as the 1970s -- see John Pilger series).

    PM Brown did make the apology for the more-or-less forced emigration of 150,000+ British children to Commonwealth Nations in the 20th century.
    That apology certainly doesn't make up for the heartache & hardship many suffered.

    All the same it was over a 50 year period: It was run jointly with Governments of Commonwealth Nations which had been independent for most of that century.

    In contrast Nazi Germany between 1941-45 shipped over 1,000,000 under-16 girls & boys from all over Occupied Europe to their deaths.

    Two wrongs don't make a right: The British policy seen in the present day terms is indefensible - - all the same, 98% of the transferred children survived & their descendants too - - so, QOT, which bit of 1941-45 do You want to "..answer.." for!?

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  • 397. At 9:52pm on 28 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Pate

    -- Are you suggesting that ´old timers´ need an occasional oil change ?

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  • 398. At 10:13pm on 28 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #396 CBW

    We do not need a story !

    This was a part of a discussion on ´Collective´and ´Personal Guilt´ and whether those who suffer(ed) from atrocities have a right to financial settlement.

    --or are they ´Parasites´ ?

    Pate is 100% correct with his accusations.

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  • 399. At 10:19pm on 28 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #393. At 9:18pm on 28 Nov 2010, quietoaktree

    CBW has replied with some of the information in #396 and has expressed everybody's sentiments as to how regrettable and painful it was to both the children and parents, but there was another side to the shipping of children that was touched on by the investigation but not really followed up on. That is the role of the Church of England and especially the Catholic church, many of the children were shipped to Church run camps and educated in the then 'approved' Christian way. But that was not the worst of it as they (the Churches) were heavily involved in the procurement of the Children, meaning both removal from parents for various reasons and taking children from the Catholic mother and baby homes once it was time for the girl to go home. I recall hearing Gordon Brown apologising but I never heard the Church apologising for its part, did you QOT?

    PS. I know about the mother and baby homes because I helped my builder father maintain and decorate a few of them when I was in my teens and on holiday.

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  • 400. At 10:28pm on 28 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #395. At 9:40pm on 28 Nov 2010, quietoaktree

    I should be very careful QOT, with all the cold icy weather around there are many out there searching for wood to burn to keep warm, oh dear, is that chopping I hear?

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  • 401. At 10:34pm on 28 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #399 Buzet 23 and C_C

    --- PARASITES OR NOT ???????????

    Why is this slime being presented as discussion ?????

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  • 402. At 10:44pm on 28 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #401. At 10:34pm on 28 Nov 2010, quietoaktree

    So you think the churches were innocent is that your angle, as you asked for our comments so if you don't like what I said, tough, those church run M & B homes were there all right.

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  • 403. At 10:45pm on 28 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    The position (with skill) to call folks to order is taken, Pate.
    By an old-timer. Mathiasen. Only he does it humanly and civilised, does not refer people. I feel ashamed every time Mathiasen calls the audience back to the discussion subject :o)))))) And I even correct my behaviour, sometimes :o))))))
    To the wide sweep without warning - I don't think I am going to be ashamed about me or improving any day soon :o)))))) Quite the opposite.

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  • 404. At 10:50pm on 28 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Reading the usual British contributors, there appears little difference between their argumentation
    -- And those of the National Socialists or fanatical Communists.

    ---it is making me sick !

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  • 405. At 00:03am on 29 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    Well, well isn't this fun. First we get HIV drugs being sold at "nationalistic" prices, then we get lambasted for the similarity in our "argmentations". All this from the same poster who has used "slime" or "slimy" no fewer than five times on this thread.

    Out of the last 20 posts, 6 have been from the same poster, all but one of them gratuitously insulting. Of the remaining 14, 3 are from another poster in pigin English which are, if anything, even more offensive. That's a 45% insult ratio. Not bad! Oh then the former picks up on a particularly nasty remark from the latter and expresses 100% agreement, and then to round it all off, he/she declares that "it is making me sick".

    Well you know what? You and me both mate!

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  • 406. At 00:26am on 29 Nov 2010, reincarnation wrote:

    405. threnodio_II

    Trolls get sick when they are fed. They go back under the bridge when they are ignored.

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  • 407. At 01:04am on 29 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Sorry, MaudDib,

    I knew I had made a mistake after posting, but didn't change it later (in an add on post)

    I know you are male. And I will not say her or she again.

    sorry, again.

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  • 408. At 01:07am on 29 Nov 2010, MaudDib wrote:

    I read this quote on the CNBC website. I don't know this Mark Grant from Adam but he expresses a fear I think a lot of us have. Since we are now part of a global economy (for better or worse) what happens if the contagion is not controlled? Can the EU bail out everybody excluding Germany? I don't see how that can work. Will Europe be able to help the good old US of A when our time comes?

    "I think it is almost impossible now to stop the contagion," said Mark Grant, managing director of corporate syndicate and structured debt products at Southwest Securities in Florida. "If Ireland is dealt with, it will not be solved and then bond owners will turn their attention to Portugal, Spain, Italy, Belgium et al as the monetary union is full of structural defects. With the possible exception of Germany, it appears to me that no sovereign debt is safe."

    Who the hell are these bond owners anyway?

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  • 409. At 01:31am on 29 Nov 2010, MaudDib wrote:

    407. David

    Everything is copacetic.

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  • 410. At 02:16am on 29 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Old timers are the ones who remember it was the most good-will and peaceful blog in the world. Well. in retrospect :o))))))))))))
    with possible exceptions of immediate neighbours close-ups :o)))
    and even that, how to say, not personal, but more out of obligation, historical traditions :o))))))))

    The quarrels were? epic! worthy those ballads and songs I mean
    not petty cash

    even Americans got migrated here a bit, I think because life in the American blog here is very snappy (a very snappy place. oh well don't know - used to be. like scissors - click click ;o) (all very quick, just barely time to turn around - reflecting the tempo of life in the US I think), so we got ourselves oh well where is he. a quiet representative :o))))))
    anyway this shows that Americans are not entirely lost for peace:o))))
    At least, the old America Americans. and all that - there is a drive for peaceful eh places. that this one used to be (in retrospective, again :o)Well. Unless they were attracted by the exact opposite of what I am fondly portraying as the beautiful past :o)))))

    I think we got here some idiosyncratic idio mutually allergic anyway unlucky combinations. I should have noticed long time ago, when cool-brush began with capital letters;o))) which isn't his original style.

    What is strange that entropia enthropia that mess is increasing in intensity when the British are being pinched and pinched and pinched.
    What is strange about the fact that the British are the core audience of a BBC blog? Accordingly , when they are being constantly pinched, the whole place becomes nervous.
    that's just one reason surely there are more.

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  • 411. At 03:18am on 29 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    Let's try to sum up this thread:

    A Russian, a Greek and an Englishman argued about Adam's nationality.

    The Greek said:

            ♥........♥
        ♥...................♥
      ♥.......................♥
     ♥.........................♥
    ♥..Of course Adam...♥.......♥........♥
    ♥....was Greek.........♥. ♥..................♥
     ♥..........................♥........ .............♥
      ♥.........................♥. .....................♥
       ♥...............Look how....................♥
         ♥.............passionately..............♥
            ♥..........he made love..........♥
              ♥........to Eve! .............♥
                   ♥.............. .......♥
                        ♥........... ..♥
                             ♥.......♥
                               ♥...♥
                                 ♥
                                ♥
                                 ♥
                                  ♥

    The Englishman said, "Of course Adam was British:

                 ,;;;;;;;,
                ;;;;;;;;;;;,
               ;;;;;'_____;'
               ;;;(/))))|((\
               _;;((((((|))))
              / |_\\\\\\\\\\\\
         .--~(  \ ~))))))))))))
        /     \  `\-(((((((((((\\                 Look how he gave
        |    | `\   ) |\       /|)
         |    | `. _/ \_____/    |              his only apple to the lady,
          |    , `\~               /
           |    \ \                 /                like a real gentleman
          | `.   `\|             /
          |   ~-   `\           /
           \____~._/~ -_,  (\
            |-----|\   \    ';;
           |      | :;;;'         \
          |  /    |                |
          |       |                |


    The Russian said, "Of course Adam only could be Russian. Who else, deceived by Stalin-Vipera, possessing nothing but a sole apple (Katyn), and walking with a naked ass, still believed he was in a paradise (☭)?"

    ...and then Michail Gorbacev came and punished the Russians, bringing them down to the capitalist earth...

    ...did i miss something?...Ohhhh...yes! Ireland! :))))))

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  • 412. At 03:33am on 29 Nov 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    BBC - Why do I have to sign in every time I visit this blog ?

    Gavin Hewitt , you have a resposibility for keeping a control on your blogs , even if you think you only have to write the article .

    Moderators , I thought that one of your rules was that people had to stick to the topic . IMO , if Gavin has not supplied a new blog and people go way off the subject as here , the blog should be closed .

    I appreciate that many of the contributors are retirees , like myself , with little else to do , who are interested in the future of their nation state and the future or downfall of the EU . It is disheartening , to find this blog disintegrating , to Katyn , Russia vs Finland , Hungary , Czechs , Africa , etc. etc . , to personal venom and invective . I am shocked to see the number of posts refered for consideration , all the 20s and 40s ; this certainly sugests that somebody bears a personal grudge against those very few names . Such a person should be assessed themselves by the moderators and if necessary banned from the blog . It is regretable that among the contributors there are one or two who have rigid fixed views , or use this blog to push their socialist/communist views . From my own experience moderators withdraw posts but appear never do any reassessment .
    I find it sad that blogs that should be a little entertaining stimulation , giving one's opinion on a matter of "Europe Today" , should become no more than a personal slanging match . Some contributors have nothing useful to say on any subject , other than Snyde or offensive remarks . I would say to the better informed , do not respond to those people , just ignore them .

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  • 413. At 04:10am on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    On Saturday night temperatures in Wales and Northern Ireland fell to the lowest on record for November, reaching -18C (0F) and -9.5C (15F) respectively.


    My deep condolences to all suffering from yet another global warming disaster.

    [I hope ukwales is O.K.]

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  • 414. At 06:10am on 29 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    TO ALL: regarding #404

    "Reading the usual British contributors, there appears little difference between their argumentation
    -- And those of the National Socialists or fanatical Communists""

    I'm sure the mods would remove this disgusting post if I asked, but however you all feel about being accused of being Nazis ,i'd respectfully ask all other posters not to do that. It needs to be kept for posterity.

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  • 415. At 06:38am on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #335 threnodio II

    I simply noticed that Zeiss Jena lenses were used years ago in the White House CCTV system and that Czeska Zbrojovka's Semtex (C4) whas been an explosive of choice of many a terrorist outfit, particularly since Col. Qaddafi bought at one time quite a few tons of it.

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  • 416. At 06:43am on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    TO ALL: regarding #404

    "Reading the usual British contributors, there appears little difference between their argumentation
    -- And those of the National Socialists or fanatical Communists""



    charlie, I also don't understand a distinction 'OR' between fascists and fanatical Communists although neither of those categories would, IMHO, fit any British contributor here.

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  • 417. At 06:49am on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    @314 "Alice, you're still in a deep denial." - You aren't a judge.


    Of course I am not.

    But it was not a judgment, but simply an opinion based on your earlier comments.

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  • 418. At 07:02am on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "powermeer, you'll have a mental block here, figuring it out, as the dispute is similar to the Russian-Polish one, when Russia(USSR) in 1940 grabatised half Poland - same lands Poland grabatised from Russia (Belorussia, Lithuania and a bit of Ukraine) by winning Polish-Russian war of 1921."


    Wrong again, Alice.

    First of all it was a Polish - BOLSHEVIK War.

    [although I can understand why some Russian jingoists still fill humiliated by a defeat of their much bigger armed forces]

    Second: just one look at maps of Poland from XIV century to XVIII century (at the end of which you divided that country intro three occpied parts together with our Prussian allies) would save you a lot of embarassment.


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  • 419. At 07:19am on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Stalingrad was important for not surrending oil fields in the South"

    Yes, it was silly, (stupid, actually) but it was not about oil.

    On the contrary.

    Gen. Guderian tried to persuade Hitler to secure gasoline supplies for Wermacht's Panzer Divisions by attacking and occupying CASPIAN region first (N. Iran and Azerbaijan), before moving farther east.

    But Parteigenosse Adolf was about as brilliant military strategist as comrade Soso, so...

    [The only difference in a present day assessments of those two totalitarian leaders' 'accomplishments' is that nobody in Germany even thinks about erecting monuments for Chancellor Hitler. Whereas...]

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  • 420. At 07:54am on 29 Nov 2010, DurstigerMann wrote:

    you hit the nail on the head, powermeerkat.
    And I am still not sure whether it is a good thing or not that Stalin actually grasped his ineptness at some point.
    But then again, it doesn`t really matter who won as both were basically the same. National SOCIALIST German Workers` Party. Nuff said. :)

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  • 421. At 08:00am on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    margart howard wrote:
    "Thanks for the 'butcher shop' story [#329] - I shall have to stop moaning when confronted in my local supermarket by about forty different types of, say, coffee and can't make up my mind which to choose!"





    When I visited Poland (whose official emblem is white eagle) a year ago I was told by a lady a joke from the '80s ( martial law days):

    A fella comes to a butcher shop, looks at completely empty shelves and hooks and asks: "You have nothing else?!"

    A butcher: "Only what you see".

    The customer looks at the national emblem hanging above the counter and says: "OK, so give half a kilo of that eagle, please".

    And re your comment about multiplicity of brands in Western supermarkets...


    Sometime in the 80s I took a visitor from one of the Soviet-occupied E. European countries to a supermarket to do some necessary shopping.

    I recall it was a Gourmet Giant and the lady looked with a visible disorientation at a whole panoply of cheeses displayed there.

    So I asked her what cheeses she was familiar with.

    "White cheese and yellow cheese" -she replied truthfully.

    I almost cried. No, not from laughter.


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  • 422. At 08:21am on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    threnodio_II wrote:
    #295 - WebAliceinwonderland

    No, that is wrong. South Stream will carry Russian gas via the Black Sea, Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary to supply western Europe south and east of the Alps. The intention is to bypass Ukraine. Only Nabucco relies on other resources which (say Wiki) are 'Iraq in cooperation wih Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, and possibly Egypt'.






    threnodio, Iran (which has plenty of oil) was very much interested in joing Nabucco.

    It was rebuffed for obvious reasons.

    But if the fanatical Islamist regime in Tehran collapses or is replaced with a more reasonable and predictable one - Persia may certainly become a leading supplier of oil to Nabucco pipeline.

    Which, incidentally, is going to go all the way up to Czechia, and perhaps be extended to Poland; the country which is also building a gasoport after signing a multi-year contract with Qatar for deliveries of its liquid gas.

    It seems diversification is the word today in the whole EU.

    P.S BTW. threnodio, you may want to read on major problems with a development of the once very promising huge Shtokman Field.

    And while at it check the area's latitude and weather. ;)

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  • 423. At 08:31am on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    There's no such thing as a FORMER KGB agent."
    Catchy phrase. As most of yours, unsubstantiated, are :o)))))))))))




    funny, Alice, since, if you bother to check various news agencies' archives you'd find out that opinion was attributed to certain Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, whom, I would have thought, you'd consider the most reliable source.

    At least as far as KGB 'siloviki' are concerned.

    [When still it doubt about a veracity of that statement, ask Mr. Sergeyev. He is also quite an authority on such matters. :-)))]

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  • 424. At 08:48am on 29 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    401. At 10:34pm on 28 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
    #399 Buzet 23 and C_C

    --- PARASITES OR NOT ???????????


    You want parasites? I'll show you parasites:

    (From Robert Pestons blog)


    " the German finance minister, Wolfgang Schauble, is arguing that Ireland should pay a higher interest rate of around 7 per cent. His demand is thought to reflect the chronic unpopularity in Germany of the country's participation in bailouts of financially weaker EU states, such as Greece and Ireland.

    So the German government feels that any rescue loans should not look like cheap money, but should be charged at an interest rate that contains an element of punishment for the reckless borrowing spree of Ireland's banks, which took the Irish economy to the brink of bankruptcy.

    Ireland would plainly want to pay less. And it is thought that the UK is supporting the Irish position, for fear of the damaging consequences for financial stability if the Irish state were burdened with an unaffordable rate of interest."

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  • 425. At 09:01am on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "And what do you think - to the formal request to let Red Army pass through Poland to Chechoslovakia - Poand replied forget about it:o)))))"


    Well Alice, perhaps countries like Czecholovakia, Hungary, Poland, etc.
    remeber that when Russian Army "passes through" it takes its sweet long time before it eventually goes home.

    And usually doesn't leave much left in its path. :-)))

    Perhaps threnodio II could tell you more about a last Red Army's friendly visit to Hungary (1956) than I could.

    And his Hungarian neighbours could be even more specific.

    And Czech and Slovak posters about a similar 'visit' in August of 1968.

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  • 426. At 09:14am on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    DurstigetrMan wrote in #420:

    it doesn`t really matter who won as both were basically the same. National SOCIALIST German Workers` Party. Nuff said. :)






    I've been told here and in Mark Mardell's N. America blog more than once that those were not REAL Socialists.

    And neither were those the Soviet Block.

    However, till this very day nobody has explained to me (despite my asking) where have those REAL Socialists ever ruled, let alone succesfully.

    {I'm willing to wait till April 1st, though]

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  • 427. At 09:33am on 29 Nov 2010, Benefactor wrote:

    @ 426 powermeerkat

    Depends what you mean by Socialism:

    Any place where the workers control the means of production, basically nowhere.
    Any place where there is even the slightest redistribution of wealth, basically everywhere.

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  • 428. At 09:38am on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Last time he visited, Turkmen-basee said "I will always have gas for my dear friend Russia."




    I didn't know, Alice, that Russia needed to import gas.

    But never mind.

    Mr. Nazarbayev (a former Soviet Politbureau aparatchik and now a supreme leader of Kazakhstan) also makes all right friendly noises to Moscow.

    Which, however, has not prevented him from investing hundreds of millions of $$$$ in building connectors from Kazakh oil/gas fields to pipelines running to both: Europe and China.


    Kazakhstan being of course one of those many former Soviet republics which, strangely, do not want to rejoin Mother Russia, and are doing pretty well on their own despite having inherited a veritable cesspool: both economically and environmentally.

    [visit Semipalatinsk region, Alice, look around and only then we'll talk]

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  • 429. At 10:19am on 29 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #427. At 09:33am on 29 Nov 2010, Benefactor

    Capitalists line their pockets at others expense overtly, Socialists line their pockets at others expense covertly. This has long been my thoughts on the difference between the two, in the case of the former anyone can be capitalist but in the case of the latter only the party apparatchiks benefit.

    As for real Socialists (#426) that is a dictionary definition of an ideal world which can never exist due to the characteristics of the human animal, instead the only Socialist politicians we see are driven by greed, envy and intolerance in various degrees depending on how far left they are.

    #424. At 08:48am on 29 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie

    An interesting perspective of the German political thinking, they lend a huge amount to countries like Greece and Ireland so that they can buy German products which boosts German exports and makes the German economy successful, and then criticise when the bubble bursts. The answer for Germany would have been not to lend the money in the first place, but then exports would have plummeted and their recovery stalled. Now they complain about having to bail-out countries that they helped create the mess in, pure humbug.

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  • 430. At 10:31am on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Jukka Rohila to Alice in Wonderland:


    You know, you should be lucky that current day Finns are rational and accept history and what has happened and don't want to make changes based on it: for example insist on getting historic lands back. However you really shouldn't push your luck on justifying the annexation of Karelia by the Soviet Union, it was a historic injustice that costed people their land that they had for countless generations inhabited. For example both my grand mothers lost their farms, houses and everything they had, everything had to be left there.


    Yukka, once in still Soviet times I had some Russian visitors to my house and I played for them one of my all time favourites:

    Stanley Kubrick's "Dr. Strangelove"


    They were quite amazed and asked me: how this footge of a shot B-52 flying low over Russia could have been shot".

    I had to explain that the realistic footage in question was shot over Finnish N. Karelia, since Soviet-occupied S. Karelia looked exactly the same.

    As Yukka said: bygones are bygones but facts are facts.



    BTW. Yukka, I walked Mannerheim Line, although in your summer.

    That overpowered Finns with their inferior weaponry held as long as they did and gave Russians a run for their rubbles for such a long time - is bloody amazing!

    Respect!

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  • 431. At 10:38am on 29 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    "395. At 9:40pm on 28 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
    Boy, that was a Mod massacre !
    I leave for a few hours and the youth Hostel is flattened !"


    CBW says: Yes, and we all now can conclude who it was in a spiteful and cowardly manner "..flattened.." the 'hostel' in his absence.




    "398. At 10:13pm on 28 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
    #396 CBW

    397. At 9:52pm on 28 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
    Pate

    401. At 10:34pm on 28 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
    #399 Buzet 23 and C_C

    404. At 10:50pm on 28 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
    Reading the usual British contributors, there appears little difference between their argumentation
    -- And those of the National Socialists or fanatical Communists."



    CBW says: It would take a well practised DDR Stasi-stooge & dissembler to interpret & allege comments from anyone on these blogs were based on 'nazi' or 'communist' ideology.

    It takes but a moment to decide enough is enough: I don't urge any boycott of this blog, but no matter what the "..sickening.." provocation I will not contribute to further discussion with this sick individual.


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  • 432. At 10:44am on 29 Nov 2010, Norman Conquest wrote:

    @ 430

    Powermeerkat,

    Looks like Native Americans (what's left of them) will now have to thank Poland for what happened to them.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1333895/Christopher-Columbus-Polish-Portuguese-claim-historians.html

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  • 433. At 10:44am on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    I notice here what is beginning to look like a duality of standards going on here. Yes, we are way off topic but there is nothing new about this.




    Not really, threnodio.

    This is, after all not a EU/EUSSR blog but a European blog.

    And last time I checked Europe stretched all the way to the Ural Mountains.

    And it's just too bad, that Gavin, being preoccupied with a calamity which affected EU does not travel to countries like Bulgaria, Czechia, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Slovakia etc., which are just as part of EU as Greece, Ireland or Portugal.

    With their economies having a similar, or perhaps even greater impact on EU finances as those of Greece, Ireland, Portugal or even...Spain.

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  • 434. At 10:58am on 29 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #432. At 10:44am on 29 Nov 2010, Norman Conquest

    If there is one thing about that article it is that this claim has been made by a team of academics that spent TWENTY years researching it, what on earth is going on if they were funded for this. As for the claim, who knows maybe Colombus was or wasn't Italian, in all honesty who cares, I'm more interested in claims that he was not the first to land on America, that's far more interesting.

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  • 435. At 11:06am on 29 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    412. At 03:33am on 29 Nov 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    "Moderators , I thought that one of your rules was that people had to stick to the topic . IMO , if Gavin has not supplied a new blog and people go way off the subject as here , the blog should be closed ."



    DON'T agree at all. Cannot follow Your reasoning.

    Why should people writing off-topic cause a blog to be stopped?

    By the nature of reasonably open debate/discussion the content & context is bound to change over time: It is surely wholly unreasonable to expect 400+ Comments strictly related to Ireland & a 'Bailout'. How many ways could contributors write that they believe this is a good, bad or indifferent development!?

    The free exchange of ideas, such as it is given extremely dubious standards of Moderation intervention, should be encouraged.

    If, as I have just done re QOT, a contributor chooses not to be involved then that is their freely made choice.
    You are fully entitled to offer Your opinion of the value of the content of these wider debates, however it is not for You nor for a blog Moderator to make the arbitrary decision to 'close' a blog down.

    Take this particular blog: When should it have closed? No.32 when Nik launched on much wider bits, or my No.105 and the 'UK bases' conmments, then there's Threnodio at No.221 and the use of 'weapons', but even after that came comments concerning Ireland... We get to No.424, 427 & 429 with Benefactor, C_C & Buzet23 referring to 'capitalists'.

    Huaimek: You may not relish the wider exchange of views, but whilst noting Your personal objection, it is no reason to prevent others from participating.

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  • 436. At 11:17am on 29 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    412. At 03:33am on 29 Nov 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    “””Moderators , I thought that one of your rules was that people had to stick to the topic . IMO , if Gavin has not supplied a new blog and people go way off the subject as here , the blog should be closed .”””

    That holds true usually for the first 50-100 posts. Then naturally the discussion will fly off to side-issues but that is something natural in a blog. However I do also admit that repetition and over-concentration of old stories is destructive – nonetheless more often than not, we need to refer to the past to explain the present as events do not arrive out of the blue or something. In Europe there are country policies which have remained basically unchanged for 100 and 200 years – e.g. Britain’s control of the middle game (i.e. Middle East) so as to impose the movement of international commerce via specific traderoutes, a policy followed by US, replacement Empire.

    “””I appreciate that many of the contributors are retirees , like myself , with little else to do , who are interested in the future of their nation state and the future or downfall of the EU . It is disheartening , to find this blog disintegrating , to Katyn , Russia vs Finland , Hungary , Czechs , Africa , etc. etc . , to personal venom and invective.”””

    “””I am shocked to see the number of posts refered for consideration , all the 20s and 40s ; this certainly sugests that somebody bears a personal grudge against those very few names”””

    In that, there was mine too, but honestly I cannot see why that happened. My speech was not really heated as it usually (and I am known here for being outspoken) nor was any of the other. With several users we have exchanged heated posts but I do not know anyone that ever tried to delete something (I have personally never flagged any post anywhere in any forum, I am ideologically against it). I will use a wrong direct translation of a greek phase: it was an “un-psychological” move by someone, i.e. an act that you cannot explain not only not on someone’s logical deduction but neither on a certain known psychological state of his, i.e. an act “out of the blue”. Hehe… be it so!

    “””I find it sad that blogs that should be a little entertaining stimulation , giving one's opinion on a matter of "Europe Today" , should become no more than a personal slanging match . Some contributors have nothing useful to say on any subject , other than Snyde or offensive remarks . I would say to the better informed , do not respond to those people , just ignore them .”””

    Be it so. We move on. Knowing the initial issue has been dealt up in the messages’ thread and now we are again back to the basics – gas, gas, gas. And trust me, it has 100% to do with current European problems, not necessarily directly related to Ireland but directly related to Greece’s problems as well as the general financial attack against EU and in particular the Eurozone.


    422. At 08:21am on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
    threnodio_II wrote:
    “””#295 - WebAliceinwonderland

    No, that is wrong. South Stream will carry Russian gas via the Black Sea, Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary to supply western Europe south and east of the Alps. The intention is to bypass Ukraine. Only Nabucco relies on other resources which (say Wiki) are 'Iraq in cooperation wih Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, and possibly Egypt'.”””

    Southstream is the southern branch of Northstream, the two main direct lines of Russia-EU energy exchanges. Despite current Greece’s and Bulgaria’s US-phile governments that try to stop the project on command, the project is will ahead Nabucco. Nabucco is a clown-project which aims at 2 things: 1) linking southern Europe to US-controlled pipeline 2) orientating central Asian reserves towards US-controlled Europe rather than towards China or India. Incidentally, Nabucco not only has not garantueed reserves – since the host country already signs deals with Russia that buys pre-emptively a part of its reserves – but most importantly, host country Turkmenistan is a totally unstable country ruled under a dictatorship (hehe…really, no democracy there needed there? Where are the freedom & democracy fighters? No Suun Kuu Yuuu something there?) and even worse the pipeline can only pass either via Russia, the only stable country in the region, which obviously cannot be the case, or pass by an impressive array of even more unstable than Turkmenistan, countries including Azerbaitzan (in war with Armenian Nagorno Karabach), Georgia (in war with Ossetia & Abkhasia) & Turkey (in war with Kurdistan, 1/4th, soon 1/3rd of their population!). One can hardly imagine this being any real project.

    “””threnodio, Iran (which has plenty of oil) was very much interested in joing Nabucco. It was rebuffed for obvious reasons.But if the fanatical Islamist regime in Tehran collapses or is replaced with a more reasonable and predictable one - Persia may certainly become a leading supplier of oil to Nabucco pipeline.””””

    To put it frankly, Iran may form a much more stable and much more reliable partner than the array of Turkmenistan, Azerbaitzan, Georgia and Turkey. It is the only country in the region that is NOT at WAR with anyone.

    “””Which, incidentally, is going to go all the way up to Czechia, and perhaps be extended to Poland; the country which is also building a gasoport after signing a multi-year contract with Qatar for deliveries of its liquid gas.”””

    So Poland is up to that – what should I call it? – project? So it spends all that money built what? Gasoports? To import what? Liquified petroleum? Which is more expensive at base due to the costs of liquefaction after extraction? Which has to be stored cryogenically and transferred with cryogenically pressurised vessels – the most expensive type of vessel you can have around? Which is going to be transferred by these ships from Quatar, all round the Arabic peninsula, via Suez, crossing the whole of the Mediterranean, passing the Gibraltar, crossing the North Atlantic, passing via the channel, rising up to the Danish islands, finally entering the Baltic sea and arriving to the polish gas port? And all that to refuse buying from Russians in fear of improving relations? How much more blind the Polish can be? They lost already to Northstream having lost a massive geostrategic game they could had won, they refuse the possibility to buy cheap Russian gas so as to buy the overly expensive petroleum gas. Do not call it liquid gas – it won’t change the reality: it is petroleum gas, a very polluting sort of gas (more than 70% to the pollution of petrol while natural gas has less than 30%) which if used for transports as it is, it burns like gasoline (i.e. volume consuming), while natural gas can burn in “almost unmodified” diesel engines (i.e. less consuming in volume), the engine of preference in Europe.
    Forget about the ecology where natural gas is the only logical solution to petroleum gas which is simply a byproduct on existing oilfields which in the past they used to burn it on spot for minimal electricity production, mostly though to get rid of it, it is ok to exploit it besides petrol but down to the basics it is just that: petrol, no different to it in terms of diversification and above all in terms of pollution. Indeed, forget about it – I say I care not about ecology. But I care about prices: Liquefied petroleum is inherently more expensive than natural gas transferred by pipelines and the Arabic gas is even more expensive than natural gas from Russia.

    I do not accuse the Polish who are powerless to develop their own policies – next to them stand Bulgaria and Greece whose pro-US governments (in Greece led by a patriotic US-citizen, US-citizen Jeffrey) which tried to decelerate the Southstream by introducing this despicable liquefied petroleum gas not only augmenting the countries’ dependency on the oil circuit but also opting for a more expensive solution which requires more investments all while the actual energy product will be of low quality, polluting and of course, above all, much more expensive per litre! Unimaginable!

    And the above stands a s proof on the inexistence of capitalism and free market. Had there been such, people would opt for the obvious: the cheapest, the most stable, the most compatible and the most environmentally friendly, and this for EU is the Russian natural gas. Diversification for natural gas for Europe comes directly from Algeria and Libya and it is up to Europe to aid these countries stand on their feet following half a century of EU/US co-induced isolationism that tried to reduce or cut the energy exchanges. In that mix, Nabucco is a surplus. If others pay for it, let it be there too, it is welcome but if one expect European countries to pay for such a project then it is pure waste of money. But as said, there is no capitalism and free market in such sectors. Capitalism and free markets work for the markets of shoes, school bags, writing pens, plastic toys, straws, Christmas decoration thingies and so on… but for all real markets like steel, oil, gas and military provisions there only communism and state intervention. Time to admit the obvious.

    “””It seems diversification is the word today in the whole EU.”””

    What diversification you discussed above? LPG? Liquified petroleum gas? Please! Why not burn wood from the woodlands? What, we will have petty on the bears now or something?

    “””P.S BTW. threnodio, you may want to read on major problems with a development of the once very promising huge Shtokman Field.”””

    A far north field, one of the largest known fields on earth. And yes it is Russian. And yes it is a difficult one due to climatic conditions. However the best are there collaborating for its realisation: Russians are specialists of the Arctic circle and French are specialists of the umbilical-floating platform systems. The rest is a matter of time. For the time being Russia has plenty of other fields to provide.


    428. At 09:38am on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
    “””"Last time he visited, Turkmen-basee said "I will always have gas for my dear friend Russia."
    I didn't know, Alice, that Russia needed to import gas.”””

    Yes, they import from central Asian countries since they wish to sell theirs to Europe. Makes sense doesn’t it? You buy what you will consume at 5 euros from nearby Turkmenistan and other countries while you sell all yours at Europe for 10 euros. Russians are capitalist and practice the free market laws.

    “””Mr. Nazarbayev (a former Soviet Politbureau aparatchik and now a supreme leader of Kazakhstan) also makes all right friendly noises to Moscow. Which, however, has not prevented him from investing hundreds of millions of $$$$ in building connectors from Kazakh oil/gas fields to pipelines running to both: Europe and China.””””

    As said, Russians are practicing the free market. They won’t bomb Kazakstan nor they will organise a terrorist war inside it because Kazakstan wants to sell to Europe and China. By the way, to do so Kazakstan has anyway to pass via Russia. That is something the Kazakstanis know very well and such they never cut the cord that tights them to Moscow.

    “””Kazakhstan being of course one of those many former Soviet republics which, strangely, do not want to rejoin Mother Russia, and are doing pretty well on their own despite having inherited a veritable cesspool: both economically and environmentally.”””

    Who asked them to join back mother Russia? Russia did not. Russians are satisfied doing business with them. In way they will always control Kazakstan. The country itself is habituated by a 40% Russian population and up to 65-70% of the population relates itself more to Russians than to the Mongoloturkish related Kazaks. Kazaks are a minority in Kazakstan not only because of 20th century immigration (voluntary or forced) in the region but also for the simple reason that historic Kazakstan had been actually the 1/2th or even 1/3rd of the country with more than half (the western and northern parts) being parts of Russia, given to Kazakstan by Stalin. Kazakstanis know that in that sense they are lucky to have gone off with a much bigger country than they would have dreamt and as such they won’t make it a matter. If they oppose too much, it suffices for Ceasar to take what is of Ceasar Ossetoabkhazia-like, we know the case!

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  • 437. At 11:18am on 29 Nov 2010, Benefactor wrote:

    429. At 10:19am on 29 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    --"Capitalists line their pockets at others expense overtly, Socialists line their pockets at others expense covertly. This has long been my thoughts on the difference between the two, in the case of the former anyone can be capitalist but in the case of the latter only the party apparatchiks benefit."--

    Socialism is where the workers control the means of production. That is the definition.

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  • 438. At 11:50am on 29 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #436. At 11:17am on 29 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:
    412. At 03:33am on 29 Nov 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    “””Moderators , I thought that one of your rules was that people had to stick to the topic . IMO , if Gavin has not supplied a new blog and people go way off the subject as here , the blog should be closed .”””

    That holds true usually for the first 50-100 posts. Then naturally the discussion will fly off to side-issues but that is something natural in a blog. However I do also admit that repetition and over-concentration of old stories is destructive – nonetheless more often than not, we need to refer to the past to explain the present as events do not arrive out of the blue or something. In Europe there are country policies which have remained basically unchanged for 100 and 200 years – e.g. Britain’s control of the middle game (i.e. Middle East) so as to impose the movement of international commerce via specific traderoutes, a policy followed by US, replacement Empire."


    BLIMEY!
    Strike me down with a feather duster and trample me with grapefruit juice!
    I agree with the 'greek'!

    I'm off to see my GP.


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  • 439. At 12:00pm on 29 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #436. At 11:17am on 29 Nov 2010, Nik

    I agree with the sentiments of the first part of your post and did not think it was you that went silly Yesterday, still lets hope the culprit has had time to reflect and regret their foolish acts.

    re "To put it frankly, Iran may form a much more stable and much more reliable partner than the array of Turkmenistan, Azerbaitzan, Georgia and Turkey. It is the only country in the region that is NOT at WAR with anyone."

    Funny, I thought they are at holy war with most of the world and especially their great Satan the USA.

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  • 440. At 12:06pm on 29 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #437. At 11:18am on 29 Nov 2010, Benefactor

    "Socialism is where the workers control the means of production. That is the definition." or rather a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

    That is one definition true, but also you have as an alternative:-

    (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

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  • 441. At 12:22pm on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1333895/Christopher-Columbus-Polish-Portuguese-claim-historians.html



    That might be a fascinating story but for one small fact.

    Christopher Columbus vel Krzyszof Kolumbowski never discovered America.

    [He chickened out, and fearing his sailors' rebellion turned south and ended up in Haiti rather than in S. Florida.

    And I think everybody and their grandmas know what Haiti is - even today]

    It wasn't even Leif Eriksson couple of centuries earlier.

    It was first refugees from the later USSR (more precisely from NE Siberia) who got to America first, by simply walking across a land bridge over Bering Strait some 15 000 years ago, chasing woolly mammoths as DNA tests have shown beyond any doubt.

    So honor to whom honor is due - indomitable Sibiraks! :-)))

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  • 442. At 12:34pm on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Nik the Greek wrote:

    So Poland is up to that – what should I call it? – project? So it spends all that money built what? Gasoports? To import what? Liquified petroleum? Which is more expensive at base due to the costs of liquefaction after extraction?





    Nik, Poland is not only building a gasoport in ŚWINOUJŚCIE (German: Swinemunde] for unloading Qatar's liquified gas.

    It is also planning to finaly build its first nuclear power plant.

    [Just like Lithuania, a slave to GAZRPOM, intends to do as well]

    The key issue here is not price, but as threnodio II has already pointed out DIVERSIFICATION which would neutralize your favorite country's attempts at economic blackmail of EU countries (particularly come January. :)]

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  • 443. At 12:43pm on 29 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Good morning. How is the (battle) field ;o) looking today? Have we collected spirits to talk about Ireland, or not yet :o)))))

    I will bring in my five roubles :o)))))) of "expertise" - of Ireland I know
    - St. Patrick's day parades celebrated in Moscow widely (as one Irish per company is enough to take the rest 499 say people out to the street witha decorated truck and balloons :o))) - honest. There is actually a competition between companies in Moscow who wins the Parade, every year, with the embassy presiding the jury commitee :o)))))) I won it twice!
    (well the company where I worked as marketing mngr, that is)
    (and yes, we only had one Irishman. enough :o)))))))
    - Ireland used to have the most Russian-friendly Embassy in Moscow. Don't know now last time I've been there it was 10 yrs ago. But back then they had the door OPEN (I even turned back, thought they are in reconstruction restauration now, an OPEN embassy door! not armed security and 10 doors - but an OPEN door! in Moscow!
    Then they had no small windows through which youshove papers but low tables in the hall where you sit and fill out the forms and coffee!!!!!! brought to the visitors to those tables!!!! and someone wandering around asking how do you proceed with the paperwoprk and do you need any help!
    I never told anyone in Russia I thought if anyone gets to know about such an Embassy they will be wooshed away by visitors :o)))) Kept the treasure to myself :o)))))
    - Rosy O'Grady's the first post-perestroyka Irish pub in Russia.
    - In Ireland there is a Grafton street Grifton street? Graffton street?
    with the best business clothes for dames worldwide. When I travelled I saw many shops :o) That outfit from that street which is in Ireland served by by truth and honour the next 14 say years :o)))))) in all interview or meetings or important occasions, and it never went out of fashion, and by the looks of it it never will :o)

    Gentleman, I am afraid that's all I know about Ireland.



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  • 444. At 12:51pm on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "[East European countries] swill quit [Soviet camp] the very second USSR stops sponsoring them. Which by the way has happened, when the finance stream got shallow and became a total draught when oil prices slammed down. All became very brave at once"





    Wrong again, Alice.

    Polish Solidarity Union made its move against Socialist system of justice, and its workers against a "dictatorship of proletariat" in 1970.

    Almost Two DECADES before anybody else.

    Too well documented to question.

    Just like Yuri Andropov's attempt to have Polish Pope [JPII] assassinated by an alleged Islamist fanatic (in reality a National Socialist -Grey Wolves) professional assassin took place 10 years before anybody else in Eastern/Central Europe moved against Moscow dictat.

    As I said before, Alice: FACTS ARE STUBBORN THINGS.

    And gentlemen do not quarrel over facts.

    Although some ladies....

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  • 445. At 12:52pm on 29 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #424 - champagne_charlie

    I can't se the point in endlessly debating QOTs obsession with parasites but I do think the ministers statement underlines what I have been saying all along. Too many people are characterising these bail outs as something close to charity. They are no such thing. They are hard headed business decisions.

    It may well be the case that a factor in all this is an attempt to prop up their precious Euro project but the fact remains that, providing nobody defaults, the lending parties are going to make a nice little earner out of this long term - even if they don't get 7%. Afetr all, 5% is not to be laughed at in today's market.

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  • 446. At 1:00pm on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Nik the Greek: "Russians are specialists of the Arctic circle and French are specialists of the umbilical-floating platform systems."




    French are definitely NOT experts in Arctic oil drilling.

    [Only two countries are: Norway and USA, for obvious reasons]

    And Russians are definitely not experts in building floating nuclear power plants (which are to supply Shtokman project).

    As a matter of fact they are not experts in designing and building ANY atomic plants, as an example of CHERNOBYL has amply demonstrated.

    [And Iranian Bushehr may yet to prove]

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  • 447. At 1:10pm on 29 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    Out of interest, does anyone know just how long 'further consideration' takes?

    My guess would be as long as it takes for people to get so heated about the next thread, they forget all about the moderation fiasco. When t comes to those kinds of memories, elephants have nothing on us. Answers please on a postcard (it will be quicker) to . . .

    Talking of new threads . . .

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  • 448. At 1:12pm on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Nik the Greek:
    "Makes sense doesn’t it? You buy what you will consume at 5 euros from nearby Turkmenistan and other countries while you sell all yours at Europe for 10 euros. Russians are capitalist and practice the free market laws."





    No it's not a free market if a country you buy from [Turkmenistan] has no other option than to sell you its gas dirt cheap at gun point, and is prevented from building connectors to any pipelines outside Russia (e.g. Baku-Ceyhan) which would allow it to become an INDEPENDENT supplier.


    Now, Nik the Greek, will you finally admit what was a Russia's war against Georgia really all about? [spigot control]


    Or are you still going to excuse the Kremlin's blatant aggression against a brotherly Greek-Orthodox country?

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  • 449. At 1:12pm on 29 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    "as both were basically the same."
    Heaps of dictators worldwide. Pinochet and Ahmadinejad is often labelled so in modern times and Mao and who only not.
    Not all though cause world wars and are a driving force in a world war - which I think is strategic difference.
    A modern German self-exuse that's all.
    Yes, I know I should have skipped it. No, I'll skip powermeer's comments, in compensation :o), but this one I can't.

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  • 450. At 1:18pm on 29 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #438. At 11:50am on 29 Nov 2010, I quoted the 'greek':

    "..In Europe there are country policies which have remained basically unchanged for 100 and 200 years – e.g. Britain’s control of the middle game (i.e. Middle East) so as to impose the movement of international commerce via specific traderoutes, a policy followed by US, replacement Empire."


    AND I replied....


    "BLIMEY!
    Strike me down with a feather duster and trample me with grapefruit juice!
    I agree with the 'greek'!

    I'm off to see my GP."



    FORTUNATELY, my GP soon put me at my ease:

    She gave me an infusion of something called a 'WIKILEAKS'.

    It contained over 500,000 references to the USA's 'geo-political' viewpoints & strategies during the last decade & many of very recent origin.

    So far as I can tell that centre-of-the-earth & conduit of every geo-political episode of time immemorial, namely GREECE, was mentioned less than 150 times.

    WHOOPS, has someone not informed Washington's Oval Office of the whereabouts of Greece?
    I mean the 'greek' couldn't have got his 'facts' & 'opinions' as to Greece's importance out of kilter, now could he!?

    Anyway, for those blog users anxious for my welfare... I'm feeling 100%.

    Of what I'll tell You all another day!

    Cheers.

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  • 451. At 1:22pm on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re - St. Patrick's day parades celebrated in Moscow widely (as one Irish per company is enough to take the rest 499 say people out to the street







    Alice,

    Most participants in Kosciuszko and Pulaski Parades aren't even Polish. [never were].

    They are simply American patriots appeciating everybody's significant contributions during the War of Independence.

    BTW., Alice, will you have one day a parade commemorating all Russian heroes of the war against KGB/FSB 'siloviki'?

    In your lifetime?

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  • 452. At 1:29pm on 29 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    I don't know of Shtokman field problems.
    What are these, namely?
    "Climatatic conditions", "the latitude" I rule out, sorry - all our oil and gas fields are described as "Ice Hell" by anyone who visited. They are all in wrong places :o))))) Folks say there is some water going either before? or after? out of an oil fountain - well it freezes up, in huge like torches plumes? like a 30-floor high house' height - freezes up at once in those minus 40-s and looks awful scary those ice huge ? monuments? figurines? like a giant's toys.
    It is not Saudi Arabia :o))))))))) or Texas :o))))))), conditions of obtaining oil and gas in Russia has always been awful hard, but I mean we obtain, for 60 years, people are sent there in 1 month shifts, we are used to, in short. How can Shtokman be colder than other places, all the same and warmer only :o)))) well, in those, Hell-relative terms, :o)))) of course.

    What I can think of may be is the lack of people, because we experience lack of people everywhere, in all directions, or can be a slow down of the project financing, versus the planned one, given the hey-hop times of world prices for us when the project began and we got fatter at once :o)))) - and then following slide and that ? depression regression overall.
    That's why I think in Shtokman there are Germans in and Holland - Russia pulled in more people to the project from abroad. Not USSR of 250 million we are anymore, sorry :o))))) But what's wrong with it?
    The lay-out is there are things to do here and there aren't things to do in other places - so that industry chaps worldwide are yes getting over, to their favourite industry attraction point.

    PS with the nuclear stations based on ships how come we aren't "an expert". We built recently and operate for 2 years already the first and the only one in the world. Giving energy to our beyond the Ural Northern shore. And gets by and pumps electricity on-shore for a whole region when it gets colder, a very flexible thing, travelling along the Northern route (that if you look at the map the upper edge :o) from left side Murmansk to the right side Vladivostok)
    It is brand new and doing very fine we are proud of it. Un-lucky example powermeer you chose this time to pinch Russia for something :o))))) very amiss :o)))))) in the white :o))))

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  • 453. At 1:38pm on 29 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    May be the foreign experts, used to think of oil and gas obtaining in Texas terms :o)))) or Azerbajan terms, Middle East climates ;o)))))), arriving to Shtokman think "1-day" working shift is more adequate than "1 month" :o)))))))) - yes this can be.
    Can't be Germans though they know the conditions from USSR times, Chernomyrdin worked with Germans long time ago, in early Soviet time Gazprom beginnings. Our first gas line to Europe was to Germany in 1960-1970 something, and to West Germany at that. So i don't think any surprises can be with them, but with the people unaware :o))))) - yes.
    Besides, oil, at least, when it gets out is warm :o))))))) They traditionally take a swim in it, or as minimum wash their faces. A must for future happy life of the new source.

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  • 454. At 1:40pm on 29 Nov 2010, Mathiasen wrote:

    Even such countries as GB and Denmark, both without the Euro and both in the outer ring of the EU cooperation, are participating in the stabilization of the Irish economy, and today the Euro gained some ground against the dollar.
    I think we can turn our eyes to the summit in December. It will be the moment, where European politicians will draw up the balance sheet - also in a political sense.

    PS: Threnodio "Further consideration" is the yellow censorship. "House rule breaking" is the red. In effect there is no difference. I still have one yellow, and don't bother to comment further. It is BBC's decision.

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  • 455. At 1:49pm on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Alice, Wiki re Shtokman Field

    Due to natural gas current (2010) oversupply and economic weakness, the shareholders decided on 5 February 2010 to postpone the project another 3 years ; the pipeline gas production might now start in 2016 and LNG production in 2017.


    [...]Norwegian daily Aftenposten reported [...] that the Shtokman development would be nuclear powered by using a floating nuclear power plant. The plan was criticized by the [Norwegian] environmental group Bellona.


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  • 456. At 1:52pm on 29 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    439. At 12:00pm on 29 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
    """...Iran....is the only country in the region that is NOT at WAR with anyone."
    """"Funny, I thought they are at holy war with most of the world and especially their great Satan the USA.""""

    Buzet23, at some point we really have to see beyond the surface. For once, let us take the "islamic regime of Teheran" and how it got there in the first place.... 3 paragraphs of brief history....(jump if you like...):

    ---------------
    I will pass much of the Iranian history, the great (enemies of ours back then! but certainly great!) Achemenid, Parthian & Sassanide Empires, then the muslim conquest (and the fact that 50% of what was best in muslim civilisation was Persian, the other 50% Eastern Roman, i.e. to put it bluntly, Greek) and the later Renaissance kingdom (ruled by the Sah) Persia which remained the most forward looking muslim state which rose from the ashes of the total destruction under the Mongol hordes that kept them for 2-3 centuries down (similar hordes that had put down for a couple of centuries Russians) but which found itself in the unlucky position to rise next to a regressive Ottoman Empire and an already colonised Indian continent as well as conquered by Mongols and regressing China, thus having lost its traditional role of the East-West commerce. Nontheless Iran continued to be the most noteworthy state in the area unless we have to pretend that the feudal almost non-Empire Ottoman state has to be taken as such because Europeans did their best to hold it there with teeth and claws cursing Russians as well as subjugated people not to do anything about it. Iran too though having been severely hit, felt the need to have a closer collaboration with the British, who however never managed to colonise it in the way they did in India since Iran was not exactly India (i.e. a nebula of interwarring states of conflicting interests).

    However, be it that Iranians could form a barrier against Russians and as such useful to British, themselves, such an ancient, cultivated and forward looking nation (much unlike Turks and long fallen Arabs), formed themselves a dangerous potential: that of their rising again there in the middle, controlling again the middle game just like in those ancient times. Iran by itself is a very large country and controls much of the Middle East already, let alone its links to much of Afganistan, a part of Pakistan and of Iraq while Kurds, though not Iranians are an Iranian-affiliated big nation, Azeris while turkish-speaking and culturally lose to Turks they are of Iranian stock and have memories of that and retain links with the very big Irano-azeri community in Iran while a large number of Caucasian tribes as well as other central asian (in Ouzbekistan etc.) have ancient ties (sometimes even tribal) to Iran and even the Armenians who are of course a distinct Eastern Minor Asian nation have had for the most of it friendly ties to them. Already big, the potential reach of Iran of course would be much more than its borders - to put it bluntly, most of Middle East apart the Arabic peninsula and central Minor Asia where the bulk of Turks resided (cos the coastline Greeks were bound to develop friendly commercial ties to them when they had already done that in mid-19th century with Arabs in Egypt).

    And it was not just that: back in late 19th century, there came the first oil discoveries, found first in Iran, some years before those in S.Arabia. For British it was for more than 100 years then clear that they would have to yield control over the whole area for commercial reasons anyway; then they had the oil on top. To do so it would be much more easy if aiding Arabs get their independence and then dividing them in little feuds ruled by regressive clans happy to buy Rolls & Mercedes with the left overs of the oil commerce rather than having to deal with Iran where they would not be able to hold on forever.
    --------------------------

    So come to more recent times: ther last straw was back in the 1950s. Iran, by then a democracy - (wwwhhhaaat? democracy in the middle east? muslims can have democracy or something?) - had voted for a very decent politician called Mossadeq showing an admirable political maturity for a nation that supposedly had an age old Imperial tradition. In the times Mossadeq came to power Iran despite its inner problems was a rapidly developing country with all statistics on the rise and all that created an augmented awareness among Iranians - i.e. people and leaders of Iran demanded their righful place in the post WWII world, not as a protectorate but as a decent country that has the power to exploit itself its ressources and trade with the world. Mossadeq came on power for that. He had obviously this very bad for the British "deficiency": he was a patriot. And British did not like him being a patriot not because British people are like that, but British were the ruling Empire till WWI, "officially" till WWII and US was the rising one since WWI, "officially" since WWII with 1950s being the time of US taking over British "business" (i.e. pUmping - put an I in place of U - control) all over the world. As an Empire Britain, and subsequently USA, last thing they wanted would be to have patriotic political leaders trying to serve their peoples' interests.

    So what happened? British and in particularly Americans arranged to have Mossadeq out, hunting him down. Instability followed and Americans placed on top the Pahlevis, the Iranian noble family of as-if kingship rights to rule as shahs. The rule of the Pahlevis was never legitimate in the eyes of the Iranians who sawed all their hopes of having control over their country being shattered, their ressources being sold for peanuts (or not sold at all... as no big investments followed as in comparison to the county's ressources - none would give money to buy a lot from them unless passing via the well known "channels"...). As it was it would not go on for long.

    And then in the 1970s there rose the islamists. One to state that the Iranian society would be the most religious among all muslim societies must be blind or something. Iranians were traditionally the most progressive and the most educated of all muslims (one has to compare the 98% illiteracy levels of Turks back in 1900... after 500 years of Empire! to understand that...). In fact, back in the 1950s, 60s & 70s if there was ever a country that converged to "let us say European way of life" in Middle East, that had to be Iran and no other: this not only including the Iranian high class educated people but being obvious even among the average Iranians. However, the people became increasingly attracted by the Iranian islamic revolution.

    Why they did so? They had tried the direct way in the 1950s, they had their best leaders murdered and imprisoned and exiled by British, Americans and their local clowns. They had to live with the treacherous Pahlevi regime. What would they try then? Communism or something? So the islamic revolution offered them a way out: not pahlevo-capitalists, no communists, a kind of third way, based on religious tradition as well as parliamentary democratic foundations - no matter how often westerners close their eyes to it, the islamic regime is a democratic parliamentary regime with different parties alternating in power. If their constitution imposes them certain ways, afterall that is no different to any other constitution where none can do whatever and bend the existing regime and where there are always presidents and top judges or other to control the governing body if it passes certain limits.

    What strikes most people in the west is the religious dressing of the Islamic revolution. But that is where I wanted to end up... all that is also superficial. For it is crystal clear that the islamic revolution was established in Iran singlehandedly thanx to western support. Oh yes, had westerners not wanted it there, they would had simply done the same as they did to Mossadeq and they would have killed Homeini. Homeini, who was permanent resident in the west, staying in France in superb villas with French state money... so how about that? He organised from the west the revolution, then he flew from Paris back to Iran to estblish the regime.

    So yet again, Iranians fell victims of their wish to rule over their country pushing for the establishment of a regime that would continue the "geopolitical management" of the region in a wholly new format, which we will be seeing more and more coming in the region in various formats (already we start seeing this in Turkey).

    All the rest about Iran doing this, Ahmadinedjad saying that are trivialities. Tiny trivialities. The west wants Ahmadinedjad there. They might not control him totally and they might organise his opposition, this to maintain the Iranian society in constant conflictual situation to keep it at standby in case a civil war is needed there, but for the time being Ahmadinedjad plays well his role there. Even Israel - oh yes, only recently there was an Israeli general who very seriously said that "Ahmadinedjad is what we want there in Iran right now". Last thing USA (and others) want is to have an Iran well intergrated in the world markets exporting its hige oil and gas reserves (10% and 15% of world total - of the hugest in the world), to China, India and Europe. Last thing they want it that!

    So you just have to put everything under context.

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  • 457. At 1:53pm on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Chernomyrdin worked with Germans long time ago, in early Soviet time Gazprom beginnings"



    [former premier] Victor Chernomyrdin:

    "We meants well, but it ended up as usual"

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  • 458. At 2:08pm on 29 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Buzet wrote "Funny, I thought they are at holy war with most of the world and especially their great Satan the USA."

    I heard an interview with a Russian expert on Iran, the journalist was asking what's the problem why they are so disagreeable, the man said there is one aspect many don't know it is the traditions of political life in Iran - which are a nightmare :o))))) It is very very competitive, never at rest for a sec, it is very diffiuclt there to hold on the peak positions, or come to power, as all other political groupings see it's their mission to pull down the one who gets his head above immediately, and the way they group and re-group against each other constantly is lie a Brownian ? that scientist movement, a caleidoscope and mozaic very hard to trace for outsiders (if they wish to put a foot in :o) At that nothing goes open but under a carpet, and stabbing into the back is the preferred form of comms:o) and first action in mind:o) but that it is all historical, it is plain a tradition, they see political life as very competitive.
    Hearing the descriptions :o))))) the journalist even asked Are you sure you are speaking of Iran not Kremlin :o))))))) but thye man assured here under-the carpet decision mode and hidden agendas here are a kindergarten ;o))))) compared to the practices there. They are difficult to analyse and know who wants what for outsiders, to get orientation and to influence them. It is always difficult for outsiders , in relation to any foreign country, but Iran with Persian style still kept is a known hard case. As min for Russia, he said same difficulties we experienced with Persia :o)))

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  • 459. At 2:13pm on 29 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    powermeer ;o), I was actually listing here my fav. Chernomyrdin's quotes recently, 2 pages ;o). Yes this one "We wanted (to do it better this time) "as is better" - but it worked out as usual" :o))) was there;
    I like more the one:
    "It has never been, once, like that! And now - again." :o))))))

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  • 460. At 2:17pm on 29 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    "Due to natural gas current (2010) oversupply and economic weakness, the shareholders decided on 5 February 2010 to postpone the project another 3 years ; the pipeline gas production might now start in 2016 and LNG production in 2017."

    Ah well, then there are simply no customers for it. And you were telling me 'climate, climate" ;o)))))))

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  • 461. At 2:21pm on 29 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #450

    CBW;

    "So far as I can tell that centre-of-the-earth & conduit of every geo-political episode of time immemorial, namely GREECE, was mentioned less than 150 times"

    I'm shocked....

    ...shocked that it's that many.

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  • 462. At 2:25pm on 29 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Will stay sleeping then, for a while or forever. Normal thing with all those holes drilled along 10,000 Northern kilometres, you can wake them up if a customer materialises in the certain hole' access :o))))

    The nuclear power ship I haven't heard was for Shtokman here it was presented like "for ordinary citizens :o))))))) and it was parked by one Northern region beyond Urals shore, supplying electricity to them.
    So, they went into the expenses of building it for Shtokman? :o))))
    Nevermind, it's a good and useful thing in house-keeping.

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  • 463. At 2:30pm on 29 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    458. At 2:08pm on 29 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    """...Hearing the descriptions :o))))) the journalist even asked Are you sure you are speaking of Iran not Kremlin :o))))))) but thye man assured here under-the carpet decision mode and hidden agendas here are a kindergarten ;o))))) compared to the practices there. They are difficult to analyse and know who wants what for outsiders, to get orientation and to influence them. It is always difficult for outsiders , in relation to any foreign country, but Iran with Persian style still kept is a known hard case. As min for Russia, he said same difficulties we experienced with Persia :o))) """

    Well, I think there were more US presidents assasinated than Iranian or Russian ones in the last 200 years. There were also more civil wars in US than in Iran and an equal number to Russian ones (whom however were foreign induced, i.e. foreign imported, foreign paid communism). So really all those talks about Moscow being this, Teheran being that, a question mark inside a ridle inside an enigma and other such are really for the village fairs... In reality the state mostly accused of such kind of politics was the Eastern Roman Empire, derided as "Byzantine" Empire by French & German, then British "enlighteners" of the 18th century who hated it, and who called all those political acts as "byzantinisms". Yet, I do not remember if it was Steven Ranciman (famous British byzantinologist) or another who said it "Down to the basics, there were less political rulers murdered per 100 years in Eastern Roman Empire than in US" - so all those talks are simply to deride the opponent and claim him to be a decadent lot full of arrivists which contrasts with the "political healthy and stable west". In your dreams. The fact that the west has solved the stability problem by voting for clowns with no real power all while the big games are played behind curtains (and there you have all the knifes sharpened and out ready to stab at the opponents back), means nothing. Politics by definition move as a conspiracy, there has never been otherwise.

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  • 464. At 2:37pm on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    WebAliceinwonderland wrote:
    powermeer ;o), I was actually listing here my fav. Chernomyrdin's quotes recently, 2 pages ;o). Yes this one "We wanted (to do it better this time) "as is better" - but it worked out as usual" :o))) was there;
    I like more the one:
    "It has never been, once, like that! And now - again." :o))))))





    From Yogi Berra's treasury:

    "It ain't over till it's over"

    And a shorter equivalent of Chernomyrdin's admission:

    "Deja vu all over again" :)


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  • 465. At 2:38pm on 29 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Mathiasen

    re #454

    In September You did ask us all to keep an eye on developments and "..report back.." as we moved toward von Rompuy's report on how to amend the Treaties.

    I for one feel dreadful in that I failed in the mission You set me.

    Then again, so it would appear did the EU Leadership as they fell into another 3 month cycle of negotiation, compromise & regular pronouncements that the Irish crisis (a la Greece) was 'finally over'... And they've only just had the ink dry and Portugal, Belgium & Italy loom large for the Festive Season round of crunch meetings lasting well into the New Year?

    Imagine another decisive Brussels promulgation, 'Yes! This time we've really cracked it! No more Fiscal irregularity, no more Financial turbulence, no more Fiduciary inelegance! The EU's New year Resolution is to mind its own business and let the People GO!'

    What thoughts on von Rompuy having the intelligence to support such a move?

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  • 466. At 2:46pm on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "The fact that the west has solved the stability problem by voting for clowns with no real power"

    While puppets like Ahmedinnerjacket are no clowns, and with real power.

    [unlike Iranian ayatollahs who pull the strings]

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  • 467. At 3:05pm on 29 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    460. At 2:17pm on 29 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:
    ”””Due to natural gas current (2010) oversupply and economic weakness, the shareholders decided on 5 February 2010 to postpone the project another 3 years ; the pipeline gas production might now start in 2016 and LNG production in 2017."”””

    Ah well, then there are simply no customers for it. And you were telling me 'climate, climate" ;o)))))))””””

    I do not care about the environment Alice but I buy your gas if you sell. Unless CBW’s friends prohibit me to do so by sending against me all the Turks, Albanians, FYROMians and Al-Kaida he can find so as to teach me what is free markets all about…hehehe… (CBW, ok relax, the reference to you is a well-meant joke, I enjoyed yours on Wiki-leaks, I will comment below).

    461. At 2:21pm on 29 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:
    “””#450
    CBW;
    "So far as I can tell that centre-of-the-earth & conduit of every geo-political episode of time immemorial, namely GREECE, was mentioned less than 150 times"
    “””I'm shocked....
    ...shocked that it's that many.”””””

    CBW & Champagne Charlie, ehehehe…. Good good. Now let me see how can that “shocking piece of information” be true?

    1) First case: US is so disapproving of the existence of Greece that it refuses to commentate referring to Greece in the exact same reason that 200 years ago Britain, France, Austria, Germanic and Italic states refused to recognise the existence of any “Greek state”. See back then we Greeks were nothing more than “Christian Turks”. Evidently, according to western European scientific thought it seems our ancestors came from Mongolia and in the passage due to too much horse riding (and “riding”) we finally got hairy chests, big feet, big noses, big other…as well as saying “what the ! why not speak Greek and become christians so we can become slaves of the muslims! That will be cool!). Whatever.

    2) Second case: Greece is a kind of Al-Kaida. No, nothing to do with the terrorist organisation. But since you referred to wiki-leaks documents, it is the very same site that referred to some 200,000 pages or so documents on Afganistan where the US went to hunt down Osama bin Laden (what happened to this soul really?) and Al-Kaida and it counted the number of times Al-Kaida and Osama have been measured and I think it did not pass even the 100 cap!!! So given that US went in Afganistan for that reason specifically all while Greece is only a part on the edge of the whole picture of the middle-game, the 150 references in 500,000 pages is quite significant not to mention terrifyingly alarming if one takes into consideration what happened to Afganistan!!!!

    Haha… which leads us naturally to the 3rd case:

    US essays tend to refer to anything else than go name directly this or that. Especially if they are dealing with something they dislike they won’t name it – it is good old practice and Americans (and even British earlier than them) are not the first to do so, most have done the same. In case of Al-Kaida of course it is not that they dislike it, it is just that this thing does not exist, it is them that created it to have a pretext, you do not expect them to refer to it in their reports. In case of states’ names though, it is well expected that when referring in geostrategic actions that they won’t refer to states. In their reports they will be revolving around their geostrategic interests. As such regional names and geographical names as well as other descriptions will be much more frequent. Eg. a report won’t say “blah blah… US bases in Crete, Greece” but it will say “blah blah… US bases in Crete” or “blha blah… US bases in Aegean”… or as a part of “Blah blah.. US bases in central-east Mediterranean”. At the end of the day the terms used are of their usage and they won’t go by names of countries that anyway do not count in their eyes and do not respect. And to put it even more bluntly… if anything, for the case of the Greek state, currently it being ruled by US-citizen Jeffrey, cannot even be termed as any entity by itself but more easily as the 84th or 109th state of the United States (depending on how many countries around the world fall in that category – eg. Check republic falls in that category, Albania too, Georgia too, Indonesia too…. A yes, sorry forgot Britain too (ehehehehehe).

    By the way, far from having said the amusing (but so true) above that answer for good your funny (but well received) remark, I would like to invite you to ponder a bit more on the reasoning behind sites like wiki-leaks. There might be some interesting info there but at the end we can trust none. I am always keeping back-ups in all those cases where people come out with particular ease and claim to be able to deliver “deep info” with an apparent impunity. I have a glimpse on the info but I am not impressed. I am interested more on that kind of info that goes along with events as they unfold.

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  • 468. At 3:19pm on 29 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #461. At 2:21pm on 29 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #450
    CBW;

    "So far as I can tell that centre-of-the-earth & conduit of every geo-political episode of time immemorial, namely GREECE, was mentioned less than 150 times"

    I'm shocked....

    ...shocked that it's that many."



    Oh alright, You caught me out C_C.

    I didn't have the heart to tell the 'greek' I'd looked at over 75,000 Wikileak entries and had only found 5 non-specifically relating to Greece. Upto this moment I've found 3 indirectly appropriate as in they refer to the Aegean end of the Mediterranean.

    I hope it does turn out to be more otherwise the poor bloke is going to be crushed by the weight of his nation's innocuous inconspicuousness on the International scene!
    I mean he's written entire volumes on these blogs about British-American interventions, especially the 'secret diplomacy' re Greek affairs, and here we have the largest ever unrestricted access to the Diplomatic Bag and Athens isn't even in the Index from the USA or G.B.!

    Mind You there is a possible answer: Maybe the 500,000 Wikileaks are all a cover for the USA-G.B. to carry on secretly plotting against Greece?

    Yeah, that's it, of course... Wikileaks is cooperating with Washington & London in a conspiracy to hide the importance of Greece.

    Cunning, cunning, I tell You, damned if they're not upto fiendish skullduggery at the CIA & MI5 - - next thing You know there will be American & British spies disguised as thousands of tourists taking photos of the Acropolis... Hah! But Greece isn't fooled...!

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  • 469. At 3:48pm on 29 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Champagne_Charlie

    I hadn't seen below when I wrote my #468.

    Honestly 1), right on cue the 'greek' dashes in to explain why it is Greece ISN'T mentioned in the Wikileaks and sure enough he actually does claim it is because the Americans & British are too cunning to do so!

    Honestly 2), I was joking about that being the case and the poor old greek seriously thinks that it is a major part of the reason!

    Honestly 3) I once wrote tongue-in-cheek the chap needed medical help - - I'm sorry I should've been more blunt!


    467. At 3:05pm on 29 Nov 2010, Nik wrote: "Haha… which leads us naturally to the 3rd case:

    US essays tend to refer to anything else than go name directly this or that. Especially if they are dealing with something they dislike they won’t name it – it is good old practice and Americans (and even British earlier than them) are not the first to do so, most have done the same. In case of Al-Kaida of course it is not that they dislike it, it is just that this thing does not exist, it is them that created it to have a pretext, you do not expect them to refer to it in their reports. In case of states’ names though, it is well expected that when referring in geostrategic actions that they won’t refer to states. In their reports they will be revolving around their geostrategic interests. As such regional names and geographical names as well as other descriptions will be much more frequent. Eg. a report won’t say “blah blah… US bases in Crete, Greece” but it will say “blah blah… US bases in Crete” or “blha blah… US bases in Aegean”… or as a part of “Blah blah.. US bases in central-east Mediterranean”. At the end of the day the terms used are of their usage and they won’t go by names of countries that anyway do not count in their eyes and do not respect. And to put it even more bluntly… if anything, for the case of the Greek state, currently it being ruled by US-citizen Jeffrey, cannot even be termed as any entity by itself but more easily as the 84th or 109th state of the United States (depending on how many countries around the world fall in that category – eg. Check republic falls in that category, Albania too, Georgia too, Indonesia too…. A yes, sorry forgot Britain too (ehehehehehe).

    By the way, far from having said the amusing (but so true) above that answer for good your funny (but well received) remark, I would like to invite you to ponder a bit more on the reasoning behind sites like wiki-leaks. There might be some interesting info there but at the end we can trust none. I am always keeping back-ups in all those cases where people come out with particular ease and claim to be able to deliver “deep info” with an apparent impunity. I have a glimpse on the info but I am not impressed. I am interested more on that kind of info that goes along with events as they unfold."



    Champagne_C:
    The above could be construed as incredibly funny, but I'm worried because if the greek really does think like this all the time then it isn't funny at all for his prospects to engage in a normal life.

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  • 470. At 4:09pm on 29 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #469

    CBW

    Champagne_C:
    "The above could be construed as incredibly funny, but I'm worried because if the greek really does think like this all the time then it isn't funny at all for his prospects to engage in a normal life."

    So the Americans think Greece is really, really important geopolitically, but feel the need to hide the fact by calling it something different, or not mentioning at all in 99.99% of its top secret communiques. Hmmm, I'm struggling a bit with that lol.

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  • 471. At 4:15pm on 29 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    The greek wrote at #

    "..As such regional names and geographical names as well as other descriptions will be much more frequent. Eg. a report won’t say “blah blah… US bases in Crete, Greece” but it will say “blah blah… US bases in Crete” or “blha blah… US bases in Aegean”… or as a part of “Blah blah.. US bases in central-east Mediterranean”. At the end of the day the terms used are of their usage and they won’t go by names of countries that anyway do not count in their eyes and do not respect..."



    So to summarise: When American Diplomats based abroad at US Embassies & Consulates are asked to make top-secret Diplomatic reports on aspects of their respective Nations which will be enclosed in Diplomatic Bags that no one else may access they not only DO NOT MENTION those Nations by name they DO NOT use any term which might link their report to Washington with the place they are in!

    Yeah right!

    And to think I was under the impression if a US President asked for a report on, e.g. the political leadership contest in a Middle East, or African, or Asian State that American President would INSIST HE GOT A REPORT ON THAT NATION'S LEADERSHIP CONTEST!

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  • 472. At 4:41pm on 29 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #467. At 3:05pm on 29 Nov 2010, Nik writes:

    "..US essays tend to refer to anything else than go name directly this or that. Especially if they are dealing with something they dislike they won’t name it – it is good old practice and Americans (and even British earlier than them) are not the first to do so,.."



    Now here's the odd thing about the greek's theory of "US" tending not to refer to specific names:

    There's well over 2,500 Wikileak items that specify a named Country: I gave up at that point because to go on is ridiculous.

    According to some new coverage there are 1,796 reports specific to Manila alone!

    The USA Diplomats' memos & cables reporting from & about places as far apart as Phillipines, Saudi, Yemen, Iran, North Korea, Nigeria, Pakistan, India, Australia, South Africa, Russia, China... well pretty much encompassing the World, but not 'Greece', so I guess the greek is right... it is all a plot!

    I'm sure in the fullness of time s the entire 'leaks' package comes out Greece will get its fair share (running into the low hundreds): I'm equally sure they'll be about as conspiratorial as an episode of the 'Friends' comedy series.

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  • 473. At 5:27pm on 29 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    In danger of being beaten up by Huaimec that forbade us to steer off the subject this goes straigh for powermeerkat who - I do not know how - referenced to this recent article... so off topic, for others pass on.

    441. At 12:22pm on 29 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
    “””Re: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1333895/Christopher-Columbus-Polish-Portuguese-claim-historians.html”””
    “””That might be a fascinating story”””

    Well, the article did not have much but I do agree with its statements that the standing theory is for the village fairs… Powermeerkat, honestly I find it much more plausible for Columbus to had been a Polish nobleman as this theory suggests. But from there on, the article did not say much on it and I have the suspicion that it is yet another case of an academic wishing to sell books – remember black Athena, and such….Bernal too was supposed to be an academic.

    You already now I am an avid reader of history. And it happens I search things a but more. So it happens that out of the stuff I have read so far that there are tons of evidence out there (all before you at your disposal to search and find if you are interested) which indicate that Columbus was no other than a proud member of the extensive Komnenodoukian-Angelian-Palaiologian hyper-dynasty that ruled the last part of the Byzantine Empire, especially related to its last part, the Palaiologoi. First of all, Columbus stated as his family relative (uncle) a French admiral called “De Colon”. De Colon however was no other than Georgios Dysipatos Palaiologos, cousin of the last Byzantine Emperor who took the remainder last Byzantine navy following the fall of Constantinople and continued to fight off the Ottomans in the Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean but by then mostly at pirate-like attacks harassing the Ottoman navy having though success and gaining fame as a naval leader and as such employed in the west by the French where he took the position of admiral, titles of nobility as well as a technical name “De Colon”. As such Columbus was a late Byzantine noble man part of the extensive lineage of the Palaiologoi family. If that makes him a Greek, be it so but as far as I know the Palaiologoi had continued the Komnenian habit of intermarrying also with western European noblewomen and marrying their women to western noblemen so there one could claim any other. But it is clear that Columbus had as a first language Greek : he wrote all his personal writings in Greek and this was not really “ancient Greek”. Some of his illiterate Spanish sailors mentioned that his mother tongue which he spoke with his brothers was NOT Spanish or any other form latin (which back then was still to some extent comprehended by Spanish) but some strange form of incomprehensible language – the most natural description since modern Greek has accidentally a very similar accent to Spanish and back then as well as today it perplexes the Spanish who every time they hear a Greek think for a couple of seconds that he is a Spanish and only after a couple of phrases they realise that he talks another language. However, the accent is not anything interesting (it just funny), what is interesting is that he spoke to his family in a non-Latin language. Why? Secrecy? Some say he was Jewish and he spoke to his family in Jewish – this partially based on the fact that Columbus had taken some Jewish sailors in his ships and had good relations with them - but then this does not explain the “unknown language”: the Spanish back then had a huge Jewish community and could tell easily if one spoke Jewish, their language was not any secret. Columbus thus spoke another foreign language, uknown to illiterate Spanish, other than Jewish. Evidently it was not Basque as some also suggested, as Basque was also known to Spanish, they might not understood but they would be able to tell if it was Basque, Basques were their neighbours and back then it was a much more spoken language, thus no mystery there either. Columbus simply spoke Greek. And Greek would be an uknown language to illiterate Spanish sailors who had never ventured in the east. As proof of that Columbus kept ALL his notes ONLY in Greek and had only his second log – the falsified one – kept in Spanish Latin. People think that he did so in “ancient Greek” but that is all cheap justifications – it is evident that Columbus’ notes are a literary Greek of his times, i.e. modern literate Greek. He kept on writing all his notes in Greek not just to hide them from others (afterall, if others wanted to know they would have them translated, so no point using Greek as a code either if he wanted to have it secret), he did it because it was most convenient for him, it was his mothertongue. Because in Italian he did not seem to fare any good. Yet what is even more interesting is that whenever was in constact with Italians he never did it in Italian as apparently he did not know very well their language!!! Cos poor Columbus NEVER state that he was a Genovese Italian. He only stated that he was from the State of Genova. And that changes it all. Why? Because himself called his birthplace as the “Terra Rubra” or something “Red Earth” which is unsurprisingly the characteristic of the earth of the island of Chios – what a surprise, this island that revolves around the life of Columbus. Back at the time Columbus was born, Chios was what? Part of the State of Genova, i.e. exactly what Columbus had stated. Columbus apparently did not lie on anything, he simply preffered not to say a lot Yet with all that massive number of evidence there is no other case to link him better than to being a late Byzantine nobleman related to the last Imperial family. He was extremely educated of modern Greek mothertongue, fully educated in ancient Greek and Latin, speaking also some Spanish and partial Italian Latin dialects and in general being of much higher education than any other nobleman all over Europe as such being able to impress on every single court he went. Above all, he posses books and maps. He spoke fondly only of Chios, he knew the island by heart, he spoke of his family having produced other admirals and marine experts, he spoke of De Colon (Palaiologos) being his uncle, his son also wrote all that about his father stating the distinguishd ancestry of their family. Not to forget afterall all that the catholic church was uncertain about him (obviously, his allegiance to the catholic church would be questionable if he hailed from an eastern background) and all that Spanish nobility’s interest in his roots – why would they ask? If he was an Italian, they would know it. If he was a humble weaver they would be able to smell it from 10km distance, they would not ask, they would prefer not to know more!!! What intrigued them and made them constantly ask was that it was clear that this man was coming from more far and he was hailing from a much better lineage than he wanted them to believe, in fact a more noble lineage than theirs!!! As such, being not in position of power, the best thing that Columbus had to do was just like his kinsmen (including Georgios Disypatos Palaiologos) to use “professional” names and to speak not of his ancestry. One has to understand that going out in western European courts claiming to be a Komnenian (back then still a family name that was considered as the imperial above the royalists – do not forget that German and Russian nobilities hailed from there too…) was something extremely complicated and potentially quite dangerous too.

    Anyway, from there on, each can pick up his theory of choice, the only certain is that he was not weaver, nor an Italian Genovese.

    “”” but for one small fact.
    “””Christopher Columbus vel Krzyszof Kolumbowski never discovered America.”””””

    Hahahah

    “””[He chickened out, and fearing his sailors' rebellion turned south and ended up in Haiti rather than in S. Florida. And I think everybody and their grandmas know what Haiti is - even today]”””

    He landed on his 3rd voyage on the continent. In anyway he is the first to open the major connection between the two worlds.

    “””It wasn't even Leif Eriksson couple of centuries earlier.”””

    Himself was the first to make a historically proven voyage connecting the two worlds.

    “””It was first refugees from the later USSR (more precisely from NE Siberia)…””””

    Ehehehe… I loved the “refugees” and “later USSR”… you really cannot help it can you?

    “”… who got to America first, by simply walking across a land bridge over Bering Strait some 15 000 years ago, chasing woolly mammoths as DNA tests have shown beyond any doubt”””

    Hmmm… there is no doubt that a large part of indigenous people all over the Americas, north and South are of evident Mongolic-race ancestry. In fact, for some tribes you cannot tell if they come from the Philipines or the Americas, so close they are. However, there is valid evidence and among the extinct tribes there were other tirbes too, substantially differentiated and some speak of non-Mongolian related ancestry. Let us not forget that in North East Asia prior to the expansion of the Mongolic race this was the land of a by now extinct separate anthropologic race, of whom the last descendants (though considerably mixed) are the Ainous. In American native artwork there are depictions what one could describe as “African people” which might be signs of ancient trade between the continents and in some Afrocentricitst circles they are pushing more towards that direction (personally I do not rule out the possibility but then Afrocentricists forgot to explain why on earth had to be Africans that visited America and not the opposite and local natives painting the people they had seen in the far eastern lands”). Even more intriguing is the artwork of particular civilisations like in South America where patterns, styles and even architecture are surprisingly – I would say extremely surprisingly similar (even me sat down to study that!) - to Mycenaean age Eastern Mediterranean architecture, an artwork similarity which is impressive to the extent that I cannot rule out pre-archaic occasional voyage enough to have exchanged a couple of products and a couple of artists.

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  • 474. At 6:00pm on 29 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    Nik
    I'm impressed with the way you laugh off or ignore the constant attacks on you and Greece, especially by a 'gentleman' who is forever whining about the 'anti-English' tone of some contributers here. Keep it up. To cheer you up a little I kept an excerpt written by another occasional contributor to this blog earlier and which might amuse you as much as it did me:

    "I mean, look at poor CBW. He's trying so desperately to make the shapes wot speak that he has lost whatever capacity he might ever have possessed for human dignity. He's a mess. He is braying and snorting like a broke leg donkey stuck halfway down an abandoned well.
    Nobody wants to see that, it's cruel and nasty, but this is how it goes when folks who should be listening and reading take to talking and writing.

    I've tried to help him, goodness knows. I've done my best by dear CBW and this blog. I tried.
    Now I've become jaded, and feel myself giving up on him as a completely lost cause. And yet somehow, that is not going to stop him posting so frequently, and with such negligible substance to his content.......
    Why does he not shut up?"

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  • 475. At 7:47pm on 29 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #474. At 6:00pm on 29 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    "Nik
    I'm impressed with the way you laugh off or ignore the constant attacks on you and Greece, especially by a 'gentleman' who is forever whining about the 'anti-English' tone of some contributers here. Keep it up. To cheer you up a little I kept an excerpt written by another occasional contributor to this blog earlier and which might amuse you as much as it did me:..."


    Well of course it did Margaret: Afterall, You haven't yet recovered from Your previous humiliations on everything from Flanders Field flowers to the non-existent German minimum wage to 'first concentration camps' etc. all of which You were haplessly mistaken about!
    So, anything by the sage of the Swiss is likely to appeal to that 'lady-like' mind of Your's.

    Now, when You have something of genuine worth to bring to these blog debates don't You hesitate my dear, but don't in the meantime fret as we'll certainly not hold our breath in anticipation.

    PS: Much as his contributions caused me anxst what has happened to DemocracyThreat? And, MarcusAureliusII?

    Do You suppose it was something I said?

    Or, more likely they got tired of Your fawning, inconsequential admiration!


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  • 476. At 8:00pm on 29 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #456. At 1:52pm on 29 Nov 2010, Nik

    Please please try to give us not a rambling essay that we switch off on, just stick very concisely to the point in very very few paragraphs, that will be very appreciated.

    As for MH #474, the single brain cell is still not functioning.

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  • 477. At 8:20pm on 29 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    474. At 6:00pm on 29 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:
    Nik

    Oh, and BTW Margaret, just how comfortable are You in Your support of the greek?

    I mean I can quote where You wrote supporting his allegation sof the US-UK diplomatic intrigues of recent years: But curiously NONE of them appear in the 'Wikileaks'!
    Or, are You like him convinced 'wikileaks' is a ploy by the US!?

    Then again, how does it feel to be supporting a chap whose Nation figures at No.70 in the Reporters Without Frontiers' list of reputable Press Freedom for 2010?
    Yes, No.70 - - remarkable - - bottom of the EU list - - below dozens of non-EUropean nations - - 50 places below the UK!

    Margaret, I've said it a number of times to You: You are known by the company You keep.
    Thus, if 'Wikileaks' doesn't once-and-for-all put a stop to the greek's meandering fantasies of US-UK geo-political conspiracy against Greece and all You can find to write is a copy of a quote from someone else to show Your admiration for the greek at this time then what on earth do You think others will conclude about Your faculties!!?

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  • 478. At 01:10am on 30 Nov 2010, ptsa wrote:

    477. At 8:20pm on 29 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    1) I have even read from Reuters sources that the USDS has come in contact with Greece regarding the Wikileaks papers but so far I have read nothing in them that is of any importance so, for the time being, I will agree with you. BUT, this was just Part #1 of the leaked documents, lets just wait to see all of them before we draw a conclusion, shall we?

    2)Regarding the freedom of press, this is why Greece is so low according to your source:

    "in Greece to political unrest and physical attacks on several journalists"

    Yes we have political unrest since last year, in other news the sky is blue. As for physical attacks on several journalists, I only know of one that was assassinated, but I can also remember a group of journalists being threatened in Denmark, their articles and everything that came with it being withdrawn, apologies from the press level and political level. Is that freedom of the press? How come this does not affect it? I call BS on many of those Indexes. Just like the corruption index which was all about perceived corruption. So what this meant is that Greece is corrupt and Greeks know it. Now if another country is corrupt but its people are in sort of a denial, it passes with flying colours.

    These indexes say nothing. Just like saying that the UK is bad in performing arts because it always comes last in the Eurovision.

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  • 479. At 01:55am on 30 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #478. At 01:10am on 30 Nov 2010, ptsa writes:
    "..BUT, this was just Part #1 of the leaked documents, lets just wait to see all of them before we draw a conclusion, shall we?"

    By all means 'wait', but the result will be no different, Greece is a decent nation with many fine people: Centre of the universe it is not and neither ha sit been for many centuries.
    Frankly, the claims of Nik over the last year have been foolish at best & totally deranged at worst.

    Please do come back to correct if I am proved wrong, but I suspect as a sane person You know that won't be happening.

    "..These indexes say nothing. Just like saying that the UK is bad in performing arts because it always comes last in the Eurovision."

    I'm sorry, but to equate the 'Journalists Without Frontiers' international monitoring agency with EUrovision is simply insulting: Your attempt to discredit this very worthy organisation is reprehensible.
    Nul pointe!

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  • 480. At 02:14am on 30 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    471. At 4:15pm on 29 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
    """So to summarise: When American Diplomats based abroad at US Embassies & Consulates are asked to make top-secret Diplomatic reports on aspects of their respective Nations which will be enclosed in Diplomatic Bags that no one else may access they not only DO NOT MENTION those Nations by name they DO NOT use any term which might link their report to Washington with the place they are in!"""

    What I mentioned above were some suggestions (using a bit of humour - when referring to not referring to what they are afraid) of why you have not seen Greece mentioned in the geopolitical games of the great center game in which Greece sits on the western edge.
    I already told you the example of wiki-leaks on Afganistan where the names of Osama Bin Laden and more interestingly that of Al-Kaida appeared extremely rarely in several 10s or 100s of 1000s of pages of reports on Afganistan where exactly US forces are supposed to hunt down Al-Kaida and search for Osama bin Laden. I mean, when you go out to find gold, you discuss with your mates about finding wood and finally following the traces for coal and reporting on your findings on wild bee honey? I have the answer for this, you do not. I have the answer for your valid question mark on the apparent low frequency reference to Greece, but you won't accept it either.

    CBW, for once at least use a bit some logical deduction: what on earth does convince you that Wiki-leaks - even in the case that it is a valid site where indeed much of official records are being thrown in by malevolent (for US interests) people - does indeed include the 100% of all documentation on US reports on all that huge region!!!!! Greece's particular reporting might be included in the EU files afterall... ehehehe... I mean just start thinking logically. I though you used to be an operational man and as such you have to have some logic and capaicity for logical deduction - and I am not saying this ironically. But please do not refer to me to arguments with apparent answers because then people will say that "look, Nik playing the smart guy once again...". And it is not my purpose.

    477. At 8:20pm on 29 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    """I mean I can quote where You wrote supporting his allegation sof the US-UK diplomatic intrigues of recent years: But curiously NONE of them appear in the 'Wikileaks'!"""

    Why, did they have a rendez-vous or something? A sweet tête-à-tête with Wiki leaks?

    """Or, are You like him convinced 'wikileaks' is a ploy by the US!?"""

    It is not a matter of me being convinced of anything. It is a matter of principal that I won't believe in anything unless it corroborates with the ongoing events knowing that I can't anyway have the bigger picture but only long after the event. I am not a decision maker and I am far from those circles but I have some basic notion of how things go on that level and it is nothing like average people imagining (which is like McDonalts clients thinking that the director of McDonalts, Mr. McDonalt himself, is the manager of their local village McDonalts (hehe!) - and I do not blame them, people for all they care is to have a nice hot burger on their plate. Why care to know more?

    So give me one reason to believe wikileaks. I think you come from the defense sector (no need to verify this) and you should be aware that long before internet and EDI (electronic data interchange...ancient term prior to internet) systems, monitoring programmes like the Echelon were already in place. Long before the installation of WWW. the internet architecture had been deployed and studied and pretty much everything is open and visualised by those who maintain the central control. Though theoretically very competent people could launch momentary attacks, one cannot keep having an apparent facade for long all while hiding all the real faces behind. It could be possible for 10secs, a couple of hours, let us say 1-2 days at best but not to be out there maintaining a site and as-if bringing out all the laundry that as-if the US military or state department do not wish to have them out. You may only scan the choice of articles to understand with what kind of staff they are occupied.

    But since it is an interesting case, let me put 2-3 comments on their declaration:

    """1. Introduction to WikiLeaks
    Could become as important a journalistic tool as the Freedom of Information Act." - Time Magazine"""

    Time magazine proposes this to us? Already starts badly.

    """1.1 About WikiLeaks
    WikiLeaks is a not-for-profit media organisation."""

    I told you! It starts really badly!!! Already from the first 2 sentences "it talks religion"... I am sorry but non-profit organisation in our days equals George Soros paying for Henry Kissinger little game projects kind of saying. You get the idea.

    """...We provide an innovative, secure and anonymous way for sources to leak information to our journalists (our electronic drop box).""""

    Ooooouuuuu... yeah man, I got hot info, let me add it!

    CBW: I have my site too, and you can add all your hot info in there, no worries, complete anonymity is guaranteed! You would do it? Well at least with me you have a name... Nik! With wikileaks you have a random text on the net... ehehehe...

    """...relying on a network of dedicated volunteers around the globe..."""

    .. who try to save the whale? Free Willy? Yeah alright!

    """...Since 2007, when the organisation was officially launched, WikiLeaks has worked to report on and publish important information. We also develop and adapt technologies to support these activities."""

    ... and of course that important info is published in spite of the US politics and military since the Free-Willy treehuggers manage to be always 1 step in advance of the professionals who work in the military and in security. But of course I forgot... wikileaks is all about dissafected US civil servants in the defense sector and it is them that leak out the information which flies around them. Evidently it is impossible for the services to trace them down, afterall while there is no such thing as an ex-KGB, there are plenty of ex-CIA,NSA,DARPA and so on employees, other retired, other fired, other going on striking and so on.

    1.2 How WikiLeaks works
    """WikiLeaks has combined high-end security technologies with journalism and ethical principles. Like other media outlets conducting investigative journalism, we accept (but do not solicit) anonymous sources of information."""

    Hahaha... the writer of this text is extremely funny! The guy claims also to be conducting investigative journalism in the veracity of the documents. Hahaha... Told you, he started badly, he goes on ..."badlier".

    """Unlike other outlets, we provide a high security anonymous drop box fortified by cutting-edge cryptographic..."""

    Yeah man, me here, no name, full security man, tell me the info!

    """We accept leaked material in person and via postal drops as alternative methods, although we recommend the anonymous electronic drop box..."""

    !!!!!!!!!!!!

    """We also have a network of talented lawyers around the globe..."""

    Aaaaaaaaaaa coooommmooon! Around the globe? Reeeeeeeellly? How nice! More treehuggers! It reminds me of old socialist songs they were teaching us at primary school under the first PASOK-regime: "if we hold our hands all the people around the world, black and yellow and white, we will make a circle around our earth" (well... PASOK statistics were a bit rough... now only the yellow ones alone can do it!!!)


    """1.3 Why the media (and particularly Wiki leaks) is important
    Publishing improves transparency, and this transparency creates a better society for all people."""

    Religion!

    """Scrutiny requires information. Historically, information has been costly in terms of human life, human rights and economics. As a result of technical advances particularly the internet and cryptography - the risks of conveying important information can be lowered."""

    Ehehe.... Forgot the traditional risk of speaking to someone you do not know who he is, where he comes from, what he represents, where is his family from and where is it based... and so on. Even Neaderdals knew that but for wikileaks the panacea is here... crypto... whatever.

    """In the years leading up to the founding of WikiLeaks, we observed the world's publishing media becoming less independent and far less willing to ask the hard questions of government, corporations and other institutions. We believed this needed to change.

    """We don't hoard our information; we make the original documents available with our news stories. Readers can verify the truth of what we have reported themselves."""

    No question that! Those who can do so will do so. What they cannot know is what is kept out. But that is a constant problem so rather stick to analysing and anticipating rather than waiting for these or other treehuggers to serve the dinner on table.

    """1.4 How WikiLeaks verifies its news stories
    We assess all news stories and test their veracity. We send a submitted document through a very detailed examination a procedure. Is it real? What elements prove it is real? Who would have the motive to fake such a document and why? We use traditional investigative journalism techniques as well as more modern rtechnology-based methods. Typically we will do a forensic analysis of the document, determine the cost of forgery, means, motive, opportunity, the claims of the apparent authoring organisation, and answer a set of other detailed questions about the document."""

    How many treehuggers are there working overtime for all that?

    """...For example, for our release of the Collateral Murder video, we sent a team of journalists to Iraq to interview the victims and observers of the helicopter attack...."""

    YOU sent? Who YOU? WHO are you? (put Nigel's accent there... to paraphrase my friend British Europarliamentarian Nigel.


    """1.5 The people behind WikiLeaks
    WikiLeaks is a project of the Sunshine Press."""

    Nigel! Say it mate!

    """It's probably pretty clear by now that WikiLeaks is not a front for any intelligence agency or government despite a rumour to that effect. This rumour was started early in WikiLeaks' existence, possibly by the intelligence agencies themselves."""

    A ok, they finally convinced me. Now I am relaxed. Now I trust them! I wanna hug a tree!

    """To determine the truth of our statements on this, simply look at the evidence. By definition, intelligence agencies want to hoard information. By contrast, WikiLeaks has shown that it wants to do just the opposite. Our track record shows we go to great lengths to bring the truth to the world without fear or favour."""

    """1.6 Anonymity for sources
    As far as we can ascertain, WikiLeaks has never revealed any of its sources."""

    Yes yes you convinced me. It is another thing that last to learn about wikileaks anonynimity being breeched will be wikileaks themselves!

    """However, we also provide instructions on how to submit material to us, via net cafes ..."""

    (that have cameras and take a snapshot of you the moment you contact the link)

    """...wireless hot spots"""

    (eg. in airports eh? why not!)

    """Because sources who are of substantial political or intelligence interest may have their computers bugged or their homes fitted with hidden video cameras, we suggest that if sources are going to send WikiLeaks something very sensitive, they do so away from the home and work."""

    Who needs detection when the mere fact that the sensitive information tends to get shared by a limited number of people in 1 format so if anything goes out it will be either Nik, Margeret or CBW and it won't be hard to find out between the three.

    --------------------------------------------

    That is about wikileaks CBW. What else you want to hear?

    You also did not forget to add:
    """Then again, how does it feel to be supporting a chap whose Nation figures at No.70 in the Reporters Without Frontiers' list of reputable Press Freedom for 2010?
    Yes, No.70 - - remarkable - - bottom of the EU list - - below dozens of non-EUropean nations - - 50 places below the UK!"""

    Bad companies CBW, bad companies! Given that more than 80% of the country's (Greece) press is controled by US financed, US-citizen Jeffrey led PASOK establishing a paricular regime that is not far from a dictatorship in all-but-the-name I am actually surprised that Greece is only in the 70th position. But then these are positions held by those who tend to have bad companies.

    474. At 6:00pm on 29 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:
    """Nik
    I'm impressed with the way you laugh off or ignore the constant attacks on you and Greece, especially by a 'gentleman' who is forever whining about the 'anti-English' tone of some contributers here. Keep it up. To cheer you up a little I kept an excerpt written by another occasional contributor to this blog earlier and which might amuse you as much as it did me:"""

    Heheh thanx for the support Margaret but look, I am in no personal antiparathesis with CBW or anyone else. I like CBW, he is stubborn, he refuses to see some things which are crystal clear but that maybe because of his background. I never forget I am in a British media and it will always be somehow playing on the nerves of British people when I am coming here, a foreign guest, and repeatedly bash British geopolitics reminding them that the distance between Stalin, Hitler and Churchill were only a couple of millions more or less dead or the degree of "indirectivity" of the responsibility of their actions. Often I feel rude for doing so but is that our point here? What I say is not being an attack on British people but on the politics of their leadership that down to the basics NEVER served their own interests as citizens of Britain afterall. People do not see that I first of all bash my native Greece's politics which is lamentable. If British leaders did what they did, they had an Empire to rule. Others had an Empire to serve.

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  • 481. At 07:00am on 30 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Nik the Greek "They won’t bomb Kazakstan nor they will organise a terrorist war inside it because Kazakstan wants to sell to Europe and China. By the way, to do so Kazakstan has anyway to pass via Russia."


    Geography 101, Nik, Geography 101. :)


    Or haven't you noticed an existence of countries like Georgia and Turkey?

    Even if your strong dislike of both has been apparent for a long time to everybody?

    Please, read aboout a route of a pipeline from Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan to China. [still under constuction]

    No, it doesn't go through your favourite country. Sorry!

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  • 482. At 07:25am on 30 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Ah well, then there are simply no customers for it. And you were telling me 'climate, climate" ;o)))))))"




    Alice, Shtokman Field's predicament is a result of both.

    1. Lousy technology used in harsh Arctic conditions has failed.

    [sturdy Russian fridges are not exactly an equipment badly needed there]


    2. A current recession has meant there would be not enough demand for Russian gas.

    [That btw. should quell you earlier 'sincere concerns' that there would not be enough gas for both: South Stream AND Nabucco.]


    3. Curently low gas/oil prices - merely half of what they were at their peak only 3 years ago - are going to remain at roughly this level for at least next 3-4 years because of a predicted low rate of GDP growth (ca 1.5% annually) in key industrialized regions
    (including, prominently, U.S. and EU).

    Thus negatively impacting Russian revenues.

    No wonder prem/pres. Putin has been so visibly upset about prospects of energy sources diversification plans of EU being finally implemented.

    [It never rains but pours]

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  • 483. At 07:30am on 30 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "travelling along the Northern route (that if you look at the map the upper edge :o) from left side Murmansk to the right side Vladivostok."



    Alice I hate to tell you that but Haishenwai (which you call Vladivostok)

    is nowhere near the Northern route.

    It's actually south of HARBIN. :-)))

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  • 484. At 07:51am on 30 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    CBW: "Mind You there is a possible answer: Maybe the 500,000 Wikileaks are all a cover for the USA-G.B. to carry on secretly plotting against Greece?"




    That's it!

    Assange must a CIA mole at Wikileaks.

    So secret that he doesn't even know about it himself. :)

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  • 485. At 07:58am on 30 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    ""It's probably pretty clear by now that WikiLeaks is not a front for any intelligence agency or government despite a rumour to that effect. This rumour was started early in WikiLeaks' existence, possibly by the intelligence agencies themselves."""

    A ok, they finally convinced me. Now I am relaxed. Now I trust them! I wanna hug a tree!"




    Don't pooh-pooh tree hugging, Nik.

    If you add to that claims that "AIDS virus has been created at Ft. Detrick to depopulate sub-Saharan Africa to make it ready for white settlement" - there's a Nobel Peace Prize waiting for ya.

    Like it was for that poor woman who did just that.

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  • 486. At 08:08am on 30 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "If they [Kazakhs] oppose too much, it suffices for Ceasar to take what is of Ceasar Ossetoabkhazia-like, we know the case!"


    Nik, and you of all people write that about new, improved, democratic Russia? Your spritual homeland?

    Shame on ya! :)

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  • 487. At 08:23am on 30 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "The USA Diplomats' memos & cables reporting from & about places as far apart as Phillipines, Saudi..."

    CBW: the more interesting bits of the cables are (IMHO):

    1. Saudi Arabia insisting that U.S. bomb Iran and eliminate a nuclear threat emanating from that country.

    2. Chinese officials (including -reportedly- vice-premier) stating (reportedly, again) that that PRC does not have much use for the "spoiled child" North Korea, and that Beijing would not mind reunification of the divided Korea on Seoul terms "as long as the reunified country would not be hostile to China".

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  • 488. At 08:54am on 30 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Im a quarter Irish, supposedly---if a Scots/Irish person is Irish at all. But, I always avoid St. Patrick's Day parades..anywhere.

    A bunch of drunken teenagers usually spewing... all over the place and green beer ....at that:) (in my city)

    At least in other parades the floats or entertainment are more interesting than ...Green wagons filled with beer drinkers....

    The last time I went to a SP Day parade I was 25 and was so underwhelmed by the lack of entertainment... which is the problem with these parades --- they are so boringgg..

    Sorry, maybe they are more fun in Ireland :)))

    :)))

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  • 489. At 09:10am on 30 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Another thing, the EURO may not be the actual problem. It's just a currency for buying items in other European nations ...eliminating exchange rates, supposedly.

    Or am I naive?

    Isn't the real problem here in Europe... The Transfer of Taxes from one nation to another nation???? And who decides the amounts and destinations of these money (tax) transfers???

    And do ANY of these transfers go anywhere private as *in business investments?*

    Or are they all transfers to (habitually corrupt) governments ..And Who then determine the beneficiaries of this transferred money?

    Are infrastructures or public servants the true beneficiaries??

    *Where are the records of how money transfers are spent?*

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  • 490. At 10:46am on 30 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    480. At 02:14am on 30 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    "What I mentioned above were some suggestions.... of why you have not seen Greece mentioned in the geopolitical games of the great center game in which Greece sits on the western edge."


    No, what You have repeatedly written is that Greece is the geo-political centre of US-UK strategic policy: And what the 'Wikileaks' have revealed is neither US nor UK include Greece even as a periphery consideration to almost any policy.



    "..CBW, for once at least use a bit some logical deduction: what on earth does convince you that Wiki-leaks - even in the case that it is a valid site where indeed much of official records are being thrown in by malevolent (for US interests) people - does indeed include the 100% of all documentation on US reports on all that huge region!!!!! Greece's particular reporting might be included in the EU files afterall..."


    So yes, You are admitting Greece which You have repeatedly claimed 'is the geo-political centre of US-UK strastegic policy' isn't in the 'Wikileaks'.
    There maybe issues about the content of 'Wikileaks', but again You make a mass of allegations (this time about 'Wikileaks') without verification or substance because as with nearly all Your stuff about Greece being picked on by the US-UK there is no factual reality.
    It would seem that with 'Wikileaks' like so much of Your 'geo-political/intelligence services conspiracy' theory You are defying the logic of copious documentation (as You do with such allegations concerning Churchill in comparison to Hitler & Stalin - - just how many documents are there about Concentration Camps & Gulag Archipelagos run on the orders of Prime Minister Churchill? Oh, that's right, NONE at all! But that doesn't impress You, does it!?).
    It is the sort of spurious non-fact that impresses Margaret Howard, but let us face it, with her known level of research she even makes You look good at times!


    "..It is not a matter of me being convinced of anything. It is a matter of principal that I won't believe in anything unless it corroborates with the ongoing events knowing that I can't anyway have the bigger picture but only long after the event..."


    That would be Your 'bigger picture' where Greece 'is the geo-political centre of US-UK strategic policy', and the one every other person is noting whereby 'Wikileaks' reveal Greece isn't the centre of anything at all.
    Your 'principle' seems based on the premise unless something proves Greece 'is the geo-political centre of US-UK strategic policy' then it isn't true: You ask me to "..use a bit some logical deduction..", but there is no indication of You being able to do that.
    Whilst almost every Nation's Governments have expressed deep concern about 'Wikileaks' content and as many Citizens of the World pore over it for details and the most sophisticated of Media organisations all check through it - - one Greek Citizen announces it is all a plot by nefarious agencies - - it is possible: You could be right & the World wrong.


    "..Bad companies CBW, bad companies! Given that more than 80% of the country's (Greece) press is controled by US financed, US-citizen Jeffrey led PASOK establishing a paricular regime that is not far from a dictatorship in all-but-the-name I am actually surprised that Greece is only in the 70th position. But then these are positions held by those who tend to have bad companies..."

    They would be the 'bad' US Companies owning Greece's Newspapers which figure at No.70 as worst of the EU Freedom of Press nations.
    Curiously, the same alleged 'bad' US Companies own a majority of the Newspapers in the top20 Rated Freedom of Press countries throughout the EU.
    I guess they just all have it 'bad' for Greek Newspapers!


    Greece is a nice country with lots of History; it has some fabulous beaches and very friendly people. It is a member of the EU and as the Economic situation settles so they will deservedly return to a more prosperous existence. Powerful nations such as China are investing in Greece, e.g,. at the Port of Piraeus and elsewhere and that is surely recognition Greece has a part to play in the development of the World in the 21st Century. All to the good.

    NIK, what has been obvious to most of us for some time and is now to most of us even more abundantly clear is Greece is not at the geo-political strategic core of US or any Nation's concerns.
    Though dreadfully disappointing for Your unending conspiracy theories allegations etc. that strategic unimportance is also 'All to the good'.


    I hope in time You are able to come to terms with this bitter personal disappointment and do sincerely wish You and Greece well.




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  • 491. At 10:59am on 30 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    There is nothing like powermeer to wake up (after orange juice).

    "Shtokman Field's predicament is a result of both.

    1. Lousy technology used in harsh Arctic conditions has failed.

    [sturdy Russian fridges are not exactly an equipment badly needed there]"

    Simply un-elegant to be so jealous. "Lousy technology" gives eh this continent oil and gas, a good share of it :o))))), since 1960-s.
    It just didn't know it is so bad until powermeer turned his eye to it.
    Must be a disappointment indeed for SOME :o))))) eh interested parties to sudddenly discover that even if Russia is grabatised and dismantled - no one but Russians will be ever able to actually obtain something useful from our Northern depths.
    "Harsh conditions" as you say, surprise surprise not a phrase.

    Cheer up, power meer, in the unlikely event of foreign invasion to our quarters, do to the natural disappearance of natives :o)))))), gradual re-placement, of folks here, by new-comers - there is still a sure way to still manage around here - that is becoming Russians by spirit and habits, and I would say - to the letter :o))))) and "by the book" - as it happens , by fact :o)))))) with every foreigner who put his un-careful foor here ever.
    PS
    Yes, and the songs, and the jokes, and the hat with ears, and vodka, and adoration of dear motherland, and drive for a tsar - all goes in the package :o))))), start getting mentally prepared to be transformed.
    I think too many foreigners got involved into Schtokmann without going through the process of "from worms to butterflies" first :o))))
    They must have thought one can do any thing here not becoming a Russian first.
    ha-ha.

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  • 492. At 11:01am on 30 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    PPS
    As is said, what all those Koreans and Chinese in the Far East are doing are becoming Russians. They simply didn't realise it yet :o))))))
    We are very, very friendly and charming bears. Please come in! :o)))))))))

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  • 493. At 11:13am on 30 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    "Alice I hate to tell you that but Haishenwai (which you call Vladivostok)

    is nowhere near the Northern route.

    It's actually south of HARBIN. :-)))"

    Don't know where is either Ha-Ha. Never needed to :o)))))))
    Thanks, of course, and all; as to Vladivostok - that's exactly where the Northern route ends, they ships turn round the corner and anchor in Vlad's harbour. "Golden Horn" it is called, if you are that interested in geography. It's in half-moon shape, the harbour, and with a twist to it :o))) I lived there a year so I know approximately where it is :o))))))

    But I understand power meer, mummy Russia understands; as I've noticed in your poor shores (San Francisco and Los Angeles) the sea is hardly swimmable nobody does, so you are disappointed with you piece of the Pacific shore and are eagerly looking with a magnifying glass to other's geograpies. In Vladivostok the city beach is, how to say, you start from the main RW station, to which the trains arrive from Moscow, that will be in the bottom kind of ;o)))) the city is all cut in hills and mountains up and down landscapes. Then you turn left, walk upwards about 15 minutes, find yourself on top of a cliff:o))))), take steps down and you are in the city beach. Excellent, heavy, ocean water, one feels it is heavy and how to say, it's not a sea one, (ligher), and there is a drive a force accumulated (sleeping) in those waves. Which are tamed in Vladivostok itself area, no nothing big and scary or those under-pulls or under-currents how you call them, catching uncareful people in you shores (impossible to bathe in :o)))) a real tragedy! I agree
    what for are the waters afetr all if not for bathing. And it is warm in other words and steady, and heavy, and very friendly - excellent bathing in Vladivostok.
    Remember fondly.

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  • 494. At 1:49pm on 30 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Niki, cheer up!

    You forgot one more option - Greece is not discussed by Americans, according to their diplomatic corps exchanges with their home base, because America considers you done over with by them and there is nothing to discuss! :o)))))))

    As to Britain - it is not British materials' "leak", those ones are long to wait for :o))))))

    Overall, yes, here we are also doing what everyone does:o); most though are lazy to scroll through the source and judge the contents by what the major mass media was able to fish out of the mass.

    That is what Russian internet contains, translations to Russian and originals, must say always very carefully given.
    Le Monde (Natalie Nogayrede's article), The Guardian (Timothy Garton Ash), Der Spiegel editorial, Christian Science Monitor (Fred Weir), The Daily Beast editorial (also USA's), De Post (Mathias Delfe)(France), The New York Times (lots of journalists at once), La Stampa, Italy etc.

    Having read all that must look up Izvestia after all :o))) I think :o)))

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  • 495. At 2:02pm on 30 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 496. At 2:23pm on 30 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    About own security of correspondence Russia has greatly relaxed :o))))), as we are not computerised as others are - which is for the first time found as an advantage :o)))))) Most things are carried on scraps of paper :o))))), in block-notes - which are not Microsoft block-notes :o))))), and all.
    Besides, most places are simply cut off the internet acess whole buildings :o))))))) on purpose.
    So we proved wikileak-resistant; the summary :o))))

    However it was noted that a friendly visit to an internet-free :o) location - followed by a walk-out of there with a flash card in hands is always possible; not because of modern Lady Gaga's example :o)))) but because in reality and by fact one of our eh ex and a runaway to the West - had walked out of an internet-free building with the full KGB archive 1933-1986 :o))))) - on diskettes it was, heavy load :o)

    So these walk-ins of visitors are always possible.
    Though they say flash-card insert holes and CD disks "coffee-shelves" are glued in :o)))), plastered :o))))) and cemented basically :o))))) across all meaningful institutions, and even a huge quantity of absolutely harmless places not in the knowing of any thing :o) - suffer for nothing :o)))), as a counter-measure to poltergeist visits :o)))

    What's with that America, what planet are they from, that can't provide dimplomatic chats' confedentiality - as would have asked that journalist in this case again I am sure :o)))

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  • 497. At 3:57pm on 30 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    On domestic issues, Mr Medvedev argued for families of three children or more to stem Russia's population decline.

    Confounding expectations, he did not talk about his own political future.

    With less than two years to the next presidential ballot, many believe his powerful predecessor, Vladimir Putin, will seek to return to the Kremlin in his place.[...]

    "This is a serious threat. It is a challenge to our whole nation. According to experts, a good way to get over the demographic crisis is to radically increase the number of families with three or more children."

    He proposed awarding a plot of land for building a house to each family on the birth of their third child. " BBC News)

    Alice, are you up to that challenge?

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  • 498. At 4:04pm on 30 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    WebAliceinwonderland wrote:
    There is nothing like powermeer to wake up (after orange juice).



    Dear Alice, wrong again.

    It's not an orange juice which wakes me up.


    Nope, it's not "Stolichnaya", either. Sorry! :-)))

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  • 499. At 4:12pm on 30 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    'First of all, Columbus stated as his family relative (uncle) a French admiral called “De Colon”.'




    I think colon tests should be taken every two years.

    Particularly after 60.

    That might clarify issues a bit.

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  • 500. At 4:16pm on 30 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "no one but Russians will be ever able to actually obtain something useful from our Northern depths."



    I'm sure. Particularly from the North Pole (excuse the pun) where you planted you flag.

    At the bottom.

    [As usual, Mr. Chernomyrdin might have said. :-)))]

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