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Germans argue over 'failure to integrate'

news | 16:59 UK time, Sunday, 7 November 2010

Thilo Sarrazin is not charismatic, but he has become a man of influence. He has changed the debate over immigration in Germany.

In his view "suppressing emotion is even more dangerous" than broaching subjects that were recently largely off-limits.

Others, like analyst Prof Klaus Kocks, have issued a note of caution. "As a German," he told me, "you have to be more careful than others. You have to accept our history."

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I met Thilo Sarrazin at his old school in Recklinghausen. He was there to promote his book, Germany Abolishes Itself. He is both reviled and admired for its controversial thesis.

Outside the school were a handful of protesters. One banner accused Mr Sarrazin of acting like the Nazis. There were many more, however, who had bought tickets to hear him. His book has sold close to a million copies.

His essential message is that Muslims are either "unwilling or unable to integrate" into Western society. "If the majority of migrants from non-Muslim countries don't have any obvious problem integrating," he told a packed hall, "then the failure to integrate on the part of migrants from Muslim countries can't be due to a fault on our side - because all are treated equally. It has to be because of a characteristic of Muslims themselves."

He is not a great speaker. He deals in statistics. He recognises that some Muslims have integrated, but he believes Germany has gone too far in trying to accommodate them. "People who obey laws are welcome to live here," he told me, but he wants to end Muslim immigration.

For those already in Germany, welfare payments would be dependent on learning German and acquiring language skills. Parents who do not send their children to school (for religious reasons) should be fined. Forced marriages should be forbidden. His message is that Muslim migrants must accept German laws, the constitution and the values of their new society.

His comments have set off a huge debate. "We have a very serious shift in discussion," Prof Kocks told me. What makes his book sales all the more extraordinary is that Thilo Sarrazin said, as part of the publicity for the book, that Jews had a certain gene. He was condemned by mainstream politicians and the remark led to his resignation from the board of the Bundesbank. Even so, the public made his book a best-seller.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel addresses a meeting of young Christian Democrats in Potsdam, 16 October

Last month, Chancellor Angela Merkel said multiculturalism had "failed utterly". What she meant was that some immigrants and others who had lived in Germany for some years were not integrating. Last week at a regional conference for her party in Essen she said: "Of course integration has changed our society, but not at the expense of our core values... We are Christians and this informs everything we do... We are for diversity but we will not abandon our basic beliefs."

What seems to be changing is what is expected from immigrants. The past idea of multiculturalism was that migrants could live in their new societies much as they had done previously in their home countries. Now the emphasis is on them adapting. The fear is that otherwise there will be separate, parallel communities.

So mainstream politicians are speaking out. Joachim Herrmann is the interior minister in Bavaria. His party, the conservative CSU, is in coalition with that of Angela Merkel. He told us in an interview: "You have to accept our laws... Just because you come from a different culture where a man can treat his wife differently, you can't do that here. There can be no compromise."

The premier in Bavaria, Horst Seehofer, has called for an end to immigration from "Turkey and other Arab countries".

Muslims are fearful of where this new tone is heading. Nurhan Solkan is general secretary of the Council of Muslims. She says that the views of the far right have now entered the political mainstream. She points out that many immigrants have integrated well. Many will tell you how when they first came to Germany, no one wanted them to integrate. They were guest-workers. They were barred from citizenship. Nurhan Solkan said more and more people of Turkish origin were moving back to Turkey.

Dr Kocks told me: "I don't want to go back to nationalism again." He does not think that is happening. There is no growth in far-right parties. But he says there is a deep anger in society over stories, for instance, that some female teachers have been shown disrespect by Muslim boys.

Prof Jurgen Habermas, writing in the New York Times last week, said Germany was being roiled by "waves of political turmoil over integration, multiculturalism and the role of the 'Leitkultur', or guiding national culture." He said it was reinforcing trends towards xenophobia. He sees clear dangers in getting immigrants to assimilate "the values of the majority culture and to adopt its customs".

But that is the new mood and, judging by the success of Thilo Sarrazin's book, it seems that many Germans want minorities to positively embrace being German.

Comments

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  • 1. At 6:04pm on 07 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    ´ -- That Jews had a certain gene´

    Israel this time had no objections --it made them different from the Arabs !

    --and they are proud.

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  • 2. At 7:06pm on 07 Nov 2010, Mathiasen wrote:

    It seems that many Danes want minorities to positively embrace being Danish.
    It seems that many Dutchmen want minorities to positively embrace being Dutch.
    It seems that many Austrians want minorities to positively embrace being Austrian.
    It seems that many Italian want minorities to positively embrace being Italian.
    It seems that many Norwegian want minorities to positively embrace being Norwegian.
    .
    .
    .
    I am amazed by this journalism by the BBC and will not even characterise it. It will only bring me in conflict with the moderators.

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  • 3. At 7:12pm on 07 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #1. At 6:04pm on 07 Nov 2010, quietoaktree

    Yes, an interesting story from Gavin, and there is so much truth in much of it, I've known and know some muslims, but then they tend to be the few who do integrate and are not overly religious. In the South London area round Brixton that I know very well it is largely a different story, the non-muslims tend to mix socially very well as I've seen for many years, but the religious muslims, they are a sect apart. I saw the same in East Grinstead years back from a certain well known sect, to whom the only reason to talk to someone was if they were a potential convert.

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  • 4. At 7:31pm on 07 Nov 2010, Jan_Keeskop wrote:

    Gavin: On Sarrazin’s schooling viewpoint, my understanding is that homeschooling has been illegal in Germany since 1938, and that parents who attempt to do so are already subject to fines; in the case of those parents who wish to homeschool on the basis of conscience (rather than religious conviction), the state could even imprison the parents and/or take custody of the children. This might explain the case earlier this year where an American judge granted asylum to a German family because the parents wanted to homeschool their children, and I believe that a similar request by another German family is under consideration by a Canadian judge.

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  • 5. At 7:55pm on 07 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    There we go again. Well I am afraid that the whole idea of the people who designed these multicultural societies was exactly that - i.e. to have muslims, apparently a culture that cannot easily integrate, there so as to have the usual divide and rule better concept. We have spoken on it 100 times, there we go again. The problem is not in the anyway statistically observable inability of muslims to live side by side other communities (unless they have the upper hand and treat others as 2nd rate citizens - something they do already wherever they can even in Europe) but in those who have designed that and the locals that have for so long remained pathetic over it. There is only 1 social law : open the doors and anything will come in. None ever gained anything out of being "tolerant". I am yet to find an example of a socially successful tolerant society.

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  • 6. At 8:21pm on 07 Nov 2010, BluesBerry wrote:

    In @ 400 pages, Thilo Sarrazin, confronts the European's fear of waking up and finding himself in a Muslim world.
    Our (western) society, he says, is being threatened by the socially disadvantaged "underclass", a section of society, which could wake up and throw the country into chaos. To the German underclass, he adds: revolting immigrants. Sarrazin: "The blame for this mess is an unhistorical, naive and opportunistic state migration policy.
    The book most certainly has struck a nerve. Like it or not, no other political book has been so successful, since WW II; but then again, most other books don't get such intensive media coverage.
    At his public book launch in Potsdam, Sarrazin noted that he was amazed that hundreds of pages, in which he criticises the Germans themselves, were hardly talked about, but his passages about integration triggered a visceral reaction.
    In the 78 pages in which he looks at the subject of integration and, in particular, Muslim integration, he claims, among other things, that Islam is different from the "West". Islam promotes an ideology; it is basically violent. Phrases like "millions of Muslim women in our midst are forced to adhere to a dress code" are, of course, attempts at stirring controversy. It is difficult to read some of his comments, without putting the book down.
    As Sarrazin writes about the Muslims: "The fact is that it is a self-contained religion and culture, whose followers are not remotely interested in the West - except as a source of material benefit".
    There is a kind of ignorance about Sarrazin’s claim that verses in the Qur'an justify terrorism, completely ignorant to the thousands of writings by Muslim jurists of all ages on the subject.
    If I were Muslim my head would be spinning. I would be thinking:
    - We came and the Germans did not want us to integrate, especially not marry their daughters, or even befriend them.
    - Now, the Germans say we do not want to integrate. It is our fault.
    Is it that the Germans do not want us, not even to know us? And they turn this around to say it is we who do not want to know them or integrate with them.
    To be a Muslim, under these conditions, is to be fearful...

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  • 7. At 8:25pm on 07 Nov 2010, Jan_Keeskop wrote:

    Nik: What is your definition of social success in terms of societies?

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  • 8. At 8:25pm on 07 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    It's common sense to call a German who denies his daughter to marry a Turk a racist, but out of political correctness nobody dared to talk about Turks denying their daughters to marry Germans.

    Look at the stats, not only do "mixed" marriages with male Turks and female "Germans" clearly outnumber the other way round, a far bigger number of Turkish parents say they wouldn't accept mixed marriages.

    Thats a form of racism no modern society should tolerate!

    The real problem was undifferentiated immigration, in the US or Canada 55% of all immigrants have a "higher education", in overly liberal Germany only 5%.

    What we are talking about is to apply the same blue card rules in the future like the classic immigration countries already do.

    If this is racist, so are Australians !!!

    I can assure you that I'm a left and social-democrat like Sarrazin, but it would be stupid to ignore that the level of tensions with gangs of aggressive ghetto-kids in our society is steadily rising.

    I could give you a list of events I witnessed myself in the last 12 month!

    BTW: My mother is Lebanese and ashamed and horrified of those (so called) "Lebanese refugees" leading all crime statistics in Berlin by far!

    If you know German read this analysis from Ralph Ghaban who himself is Lebanese, Sunni and former member of a Communist Party.

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
    I'm sure a continuation of laissez faire politics will eventually only lead to a new extreme right movement nobody wants...

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  • 9. At 8:26pm on 07 Nov 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    It's the same problem all over Europe and in many other places but it hits home hardest in Europe whose indigenous population is aging rapidly and in decline. President Obama said during the campaign that Europe has a ticking demographic time bomb and he was right.

    Europe's problem is that it is composed of societies where individuals identify themselves by common connection to their history and their land. They are brought up with this view of life and cling to it as their core value. This makes it impossible for anyone from the "outside" to ever be fully accepted. The problem arises because Europe is competing with a far more powerful society which is not saddled with this burden, a society whose only commonality is of shared values which anyone from anywhere can adopt. Multiculturalism in the US in the sense that Europeans mean it is a myth. There are individual subcultures but when you get to the core of it, there is only one acceptable culture in the US. Immigrants readily adopt it and are accepted by the mainstream, Moslems included when they do.

    "His essential message is that Muslims are either "unwilling or unable to integrate" into Western society. "If the majority of migrants from non-Muslim countries don't have any obvious problem integrating," he told a packed hall, "then the failure to integrate on behalf of migrants from Muslim countries can't be due to a fault on behalf of us - because all are treated equally. It has to be because of a characteristic of Muslims themselves.""

    This is a lie and a justification for scapegoating, the usual European way to deal with people they first exclude and then accuse of being unable to integrate. They don't integrate because they are not allowed to. They are not accepted, they are barely tolerated. The Roma are one example but discrimination all over Europe even by other Europeans is more than common, it's practically universal. Europeans find countless ways to discriminate against all "outsiders" and prevent them from participating fully in the mainstream of society. Then they wonder why they can't integrate and accuse the immigrants of being at fault. It never occurs to Europeans that it is their own fault. Europeans never seem to accept the blame for any of their stupid blunders let alone go about correcting them. It's one more reason Europe is an inferior society and is doomed.

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  • 10. At 8:42pm on 07 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    @ Jan_Keeskop

    The differences in homeschooling policies explain why the US have the biggest number of Christian fundamentalists not only pushing "Creationism" into legislation but also responsible for actually insulting Obama's health insurance plans as Nazi policy.

    (Wow then most of Europe is already Nazi-Land??? Thanks for Homeschooling!)

    Keep in mind that the Wahabit propaganda spreading a fundamentalist Islam and radicalizing more and more of the Arabs is spread by Gulf based TV stations which are imitating 100% of the concepts of American televangelists from the bible belt.

    No surprise now that those Germans asking for asylum in the US are from a fundamentalist Christian sect!

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  • 11. At 8:48pm on 07 Nov 2010, Guessedworker wrote:

    Thilo is wrong. The great issue of our age is not whether non-indigenous peoples in Europe can integrate. It is whether the indigenous European peoples can survive genetically, as peoples living in their own ancestral homelands.

    When you transfer an unending flow of youthful foreign peoples with a healthy birthrate into the land of an ageing people with an unhealthy birth-rate the result is demographic replacement. It is not "far right" or "extreme" for the indigenous people to resist their own replacement. It is normal and right. The extreme belongs to those members of the indigenous people who resist the resisters, and in our society they are called liberals.

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  • 12. At 8:50pm on 07 Nov 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    BB;

    "In the 78 pages in which he looks at the subject of integration and, in particular, Muslim integration, he claims, among other things, that Islam is different from the "West". Islam promotes an ideology; it is basically violent."

    This shows the lies and falacy of his thinking. Of more than one billion people in this world who are Muslims, most are not violent. The major bloodbaths of the 20ths century were largely the result of European ideologies, European violence, a European view of the world and life. The singular major exception was the Japanese imperial expansionism of the 1930s and that was not Muslim either. Even massacres in Africa such as in Ruwanda were mostly tribally based and had nothing to do with Islam. It's just one more nail in the coffin of his warped view of the world. I think the number of Muslims living in the US is about 3 million. Violence in which they are the perpetrators are rare. How many violent criminals as a percentage of Europeans are Muslims compared to their percentage of the population? The most heinous violent crimes committed in Europe are almost invariably perpetrated by Christians...inclduing by priests.

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  • 13. At 8:54pm on 07 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    > At 8:21pm on 07 Nov 2010, BluesBerry wrote:
    >- We came and the Germans did not want us to integrate, especially not marry their
    > daughters, or even befriend them.

    Sorry but it's exactly the other way round, look in the stats. It's far less frequent to find a "Muslim girl" who married a "Christian boy".

    And believe me, this has nothing to do with any German xenophobia, the mainstream society is very tolerant in this respect, today already 20% of all kids have at least one foreign born grandparent.

    Maybe your talking about your country, certainly not Germany.

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  • 14. At 9:08pm on 07 Nov 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    The immigration problem in Europe is one Europeans created entirely by themselves. They have nobody else to blame. They brought these people to Europe, encouraged them to come. As usual with their hair brained schemes that they never think through clearly or logically to its end, only considering the expediency of the moment, it blew up in their faces. OK Europe, you broke it, if you're so smart you fix it. This is one time Uncle Sam can't bail you out. You're on your own.

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  • 15. At 9:12pm on 07 Nov 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 16. At 9:29pm on 07 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    Just a remark about this "Jewish gene" controversy which was completely taken out of context and used to attack Sarrazin.

    Either Hendryk Broder and Ralf Giordano - both very well known Jewish publicist and anti-fascists - defended Sarrazin in this respect.

    I would like to give some links to interviews proving it, but I don't want my post to be delayed for "further consideration".

    So please just google it.

    Or call the Anthropology department of University College London and ask about the DNA investigation of different ethnic groups they are running.

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  • 17. At 9:44pm on 07 Nov 2010, The Leveller wrote:

    I have a lots of sympathy with Thilo Sarrazin's views. Middle class exceptions apart, British Muslims live in a parallel society. 40 years ago I lived in Chesham and the then Pakistani population lived apart. I recently returned as a representative of a charity to help Muslims access services and I discovered that little had changed. Muslim women were especially isolated from mainstream society and many could not speak English. I could not speak to them without a male minder present. I really do not feel that we are facing up to the truth in Britain partly thanks to an unwitting alliance between liberals and the establishment.

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  • 18. At 9:57pm on 07 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #17 The Leveller

    Marcus avoids ´the wrong side of the tracts´ by ignoring --same tactic -different Continent.

    But same old stories.

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  • 19. At 10:15pm on 07 Nov 2010, Jan_Keeskop wrote:

    popolfi: Regarding post 10, it is certainly true that the US has a greater percentage of Christian fundamentalists trying to establish creationism in school curricula than Germany does. I also agree that more American Christian fundamentalists than German Christian fundamentalists would compare the recent US health care legislation to NSDAP policies. What isn’t clear to me is the correlation between homeschooling and those two facts — would you please point me to your sources establishing that correlation?

    Is that German family asking for asylum in Canada also fundamentalist? Should the Canadian judge’s decision on that request hinge on whether they are fundamentalists or not?

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  • 20. At 11:06pm on 07 Nov 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 21. At 11:12pm on 07 Nov 2010, 1978 Shoot league ladders wrote:

    I think the Germans are gradually trying to put distance between the past and the present, and even their responsibility for the past, though naturally Jews are far too powerful a target [in terms of memories of the Shoah] so instead it's Muslims.
    Witness the computer game devised by the Austrian far right party which depicts the elimination of a mosque.
    Pretty uppity and quite suspect. Some might call it revolting and shocking.
    If the Europeans hadn't blown themselves up by the tens of millions in the last century perhaps immigration wouldn't have occurred.

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  • 22. At 11:19pm on 07 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    12 Homer Simpson writes:
    "Of more than one billion people in this world who are Muslims, most are not violent. The major bloodbaths of the 20ths century were largely the result of European ideologies, European violence, a European view of the world and life."

    Ever heard of the Battle of Tours (732)? Without it America today would be an Arab country with Muslim religion and I don't somehow think they would have allowed any Jews in. The Franks won that battle and it kept Europe european. But how did the rest of the world fare with those 'non-violent Muslims' you cite?
    Conquest of Hispania 711 - 718
    Conquest of Caucasus 711 - 750
    Conquest of Nubia 700 - 1608
    Incursions of Italy 831 - 902
    Conquest of Anatolia 1060 - 1360
    Conquest of Byzantine and Ottoman empires 1299 - 1453
    Further conquests 1200 - 1800 on Indian subcontinent incl Mughal empire
    The last muslim empire, the Ottoman Empire, collapsed in 1918 in the aftermath of WWl.
    Aware of the phrase 'foot in mouth'?

    at14 Homer adds the following wisdom:

    "They brought these people to Europe, encouraged them to come. As usual with their hair brained schemes that they never think through clearly or logically to its end, only considering the expediency of the moment, it blew up in their faces."

    Yes we should have learned. When America did it in the 19th century it not only blew up in their faces but resulted in the most bloody civil war in the history of mankind that still has repercussions today.

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  • 23. At 11:51pm on 07 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    Thus spake Merkel:

    "We are Christians and this informs everything we do... We are for diversity but we will not abandon our basic beliefs."

    No I am not. I never will be. And if that woman believes that being a "good christian" is a precondition for being a "good European", it would be far better to rid ourselves of her, preferably before another 7 million people bite the dust.

    OK, it is an over-reaction. But a reaction to an ill-considered and utterly tactless statement.

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  • 24. At 11:54pm on 07 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    The EU needs to have coordinated laws to deal with this. As this IS the obvious problem to most people here...

    The EU has succeeded strangely in their Schengen Area as applied. But the British don't like it as they feel they are the one nation most affected adversely by this area.

    I'm watching the game on TV ...but, I have to say ...something...its my nature lolololololol.

    (hate watching the game but have no choice ...here at home)

    Can not there be coordinated efforts in laws planned and enforced by the EU and national governments???

    Can the EU and national governments control their OWn border?

    And, Can, President Obama giving his first interview on 60 minutes since..whenever

    make any difference in our "so vaunted" USA?

    I wonder....(crossed eyes here)

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  • 25. At 11:57pm on 07 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #15 - MarcusAureliusII

    "I don't blame them. I wouldn't want my daughter marrying a European either".

    Don't worry Marcus. The prospect of having you as a father-in-law should be enough to put anyone off.

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  • 26. At 00:20am on 08 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #23

    --- The statement to her Christian Democratic Party was tactless as she is also the Bundespresident.

    --However you are on a slippery slope when push comes to shove -- If you do not criticize ALL such statements ---God is an example !





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  • 27. At 00:34am on 08 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    > 19. At 10:15pm on 07 Nov 2010, Jan_Keeskop wrote:
    > What isn’t clear to me is the correlation between homeschooling and those two facts
    > — would you please point me to your sources establishing that correlation?

    I read it either at spiegel-online.de or zeit.de and IIRC they were citing the New York Times.

    Sorry I have no "scientific" sources, can only say googling for "homeschooling fundamentalism" gives nearly 66,000 hits...

    Anyway Sarrazin wasn't talking about homeschooling but about consequently fining parents who don't care if their children regularly skip school as long as they get their welfare checks. ALL people not just Muslims.

    BTW: When Angela Merkel talks about "'Failure' of multiculturalism" she is in fact just preparing the next election campaign. The word "Multiculturalism" is traditionally a trademark of the left and especially the Green party. I doubt she expected international attention.

    cheers!

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  • 28. At 00:45am on 08 Nov 2010, HSWET wrote:

    @2. Mathiasen wrote:
    "It seems that many Danes want minorities to positively embrace being Danish.
    It seems that many Dutchmen want minorities to positively embrace being Dutch.
    It seems that many Austrians want minorities to positively embrace being Austrian.
    It seems that many Italian want minorities to positively embrace being Italian.
    It seems that many Norwegian want minorities to positively embrace being Norwegian.
    .
    .
    .
    I am amazed by this journalism by the BBC and will not even characterise it. It will only bring me in conflict with the moderators."

    ...in much the same way that Islamists would want everyone to embrace Islam regardless of their nationality. The difference is in the method: western countries will give you a choice with little enforcement; with Islamists, the only choice could be between compliance or severe panalties.

    Your sad post perpetuates the myth that only Western Europeans are racist (you can't even bring yourself to write the word). Grow up! I am sick of being (metaphorically) battered with a placard bearing the legend "Assumed Racist" simply because I am white. In reality, compared to those countries that adhere to the medieval interpretation of certain religions that currently abound in the world, western Europeans aren't doing that badly in terms of tolerance - usually to their own disadvantage.

    Furthermore, our home-grown PC cabal has made most of us racists in the reverse direction. I would not complain to, or about, a black or Asian person (for fear of misinterpretation) in the way that I would to a white-skinned person: therefore, by the UK's all-encompassing definition of "racism", I am racist because I disadvantage those of a similar colour to mine.

    The maxim, "When in Rome, do as the Romans", applies in most of the world. Therefore, why should European countries be cited and criticised for applying that maxim to themselves? The word "hypocrisy" springs to mind when considering your post.

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  • 29. At 00:46am on 08 Nov 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 30. At 00:50am on 08 Nov 2010, Janus Avivson wrote:

    I learned from this article two important things:

    First, that multiculturalism is definitely a history, a distant past.

    Second, that Germans got a certain gene...

    J.Avivson, London UK

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  • 31. At 01:23am on 08 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Reminds me of a saying - but I saw it on "Russian JOKES" site last week; "Europe has got only two problems; those who come with a sword and those who come with a mosque" :o)))))))))).
    We've got 30% of Muslims in Russia, got tired worrying about it :o)))) by now, but for elsewhere it seems to be fresh news not morally accepted yet.
    But then of course Russians don't care about pretty much every thing, it doesn't mean that others should follow suit.

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  • 32. At 01:43am on 08 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    of good multi-culturism or what it's called things ' side can say one thing definitely: reviewing the other day a long list of my debts :o)))))))), must say that most of the money I owe to a half-Muslim friend :o)))))) - which means he gave them to me, in the first place - and lent me far more than others. And that he had them as well :o))))), in the first place.
    And that he goes about it the most elegantly of all :o)))), when I phoned and explained I'm looking at buying him a metal grill :o))))))) for they are 10 chaps in their work, working together, and always seemingly heating up something in the micro-wave, so I thought an electric grill for throwing on it pieces of meat won't be wrong - he said Alice stop it :o) I've buried this money :o))))))) the moment I gave them to you :o))))))))))), buy me a magnet on the fridge :o))))))), you got it? a magnet on the fridge! nothing else And do phone sometimes when you don't need any thing of me :o)))))), just for the hell of ity :o))))), at least, once :o)))))

    Must say that was the most pleasant discussion of when will I return money back of all I had last week :o))) Half a Muslim friend, an investment by himself, to have one such :o))

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  • 33. At 01:51am on 08 Nov 2010, RandomArbiter wrote:

    It takes two to tango. How on earth can a minority integrate when the host majority rejects them with such hostility?

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  • 34. At 02:11am on 08 Nov 2010, BosniaHerc wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 35. At 02:47am on 08 Nov 2010, HSWET wrote:

    @ 34, BosniaHerc wrote:
    "After what the Europeans have done all over the world, I an glad you will all have the opportunity to see what it is like for someone to finally come to your country, ignore your laws and customs and outbreed and dominate you. It's what you Europeans have done to others over centuries. So please stop complaining, Go down with some dignity."

    Just confirms what I have always thought: those who see themselves as "victims" don't want equality - they want a reversal of the discrimination they feel they have suffered. With a general attitude like that, all we get is perpetual vendetta. On that basis, has the human race matured in any way at all and does the human race deserve to survive? Logically, I would have to say, "No!" to both questions.


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  • 36. At 03:30am on 08 Nov 2010, Jan_Keeskop wrote:

    popolfi: On post 27, as an experiment, I tried a similar search for “homeschooling atheism”, for which “About 4,020,000 results” were noted, so a hit count is perhaps not the best foundation on which to judge correlation.

    Restricting your original search with “site:www.nytimes.com” returns five hits. Two of them cover the Romeike case; two of them are from a 2003 article on contemporary homeschoolers ([…] Newcomers to home schooling resist easy classification as part of the religious right or freewheeling left, who dominated the movement for decades, according to those who study the practice. They come to home schooling fed up with the shortcomings of public education and the cost of private schools. […]); and the remaining one is part of an “Ask a Librarian” article.

    A (German language) article at spiegel.de on the Romeike case echoes the extract of the 2003 article above regarding homeschooling in the States, though its main focus seems to be on the Fundi-Christen connection.

    My original comment was on what Gavin had reported as Sarrazin’s viewpoint on schooling — viz Parents who do not send their children to school (for religious reasons) should be fined — which I had understood as meaning Parents who homeschool (for religious reasons) should be fined, and thus prattled on about how they already would be fined, &c. If Sarrazin’s point was Parents who don’t care about their children skipping school should be fined, why would Gavin have inserted the (for religious reasons) bit after an interview with him?

    In any case, I agree entirely with your BTW paragraph.

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  • 37. At 05:24am on 08 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Sanctimonious David is Bachhh!
    ************************************
    Oh,QuietOakTree?

    I wasn't speaking TO you or ABOUT you when I was

    Saying some Thing about withering comments not being particularly enlightening..

    Get it? (Please?)

    ************************************

    PowerMeerKat and Web Alice,

    I bought one episode of SNL--Saturday Night Live, Season Four

    (aired May 26, 1979)...(euro date--26/05/1976)

    This episode features Buck Henry with Bette Midler as musical guest.

    Her second song written by Tom Waits, "Martha" blew/blows me away..still today.

    You both would enjoy her live performance

    :)))))

    And the KC Chiefs lost and here I am coherent, well semi-coherent...

    :)))))

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  • 38. At 06:10am on 08 Nov 2010, Mathiasen wrote:

    [Everybody: I am very sorry to repost this. I placed it under the false article:]

    #28. At 00:45am on 08 Nov 2010, HSWET
    Therefore, why should European countries be cited and criticised for applying that maxim to themselves? The word "hypocrisy" springs to mind when considering your post.

    Well, you are welcome.
    It was more or less a coincidence, when I did not mention any East European countries. The “...” was supposed to mean that I could continue the list if necessary. You can consider Hungary and Slovakia.

    It is not possible for me to see where you come from not to mention the languages you command. Till I hear anything else, I do not suppose you know about the legislation concerning marriage they are preparing these days in Denmark or what the connection with The Netherlands is. Have you any idea of how discrimination is growing in these countries?

    Also, I have no idea of what you know about the demography for instance in Germany. Did you see my posting #202 in the blog article before this? I don’t suppose so. If you want to know what the immigration politics is in Western Europe and what the aim of it is you can goggle Ursula von der Leyen or Annette Schawan, both ministers of the Merkel cabinet namely for the labour market and research. Something of a clue.
    Actually, we could take other countries, but perhaps you read German.

    Of course, Mr. Hewitt could also have mentioned these ministers. Or the president of the Federal Republic, but he didn’t. Not to mention avoiding simplifying a complicated matter, but that is perhaps to ask to much. It would just disturb his article completely, of course, just like an answer to the question: What populist party is having success in Germany.

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  • 39. At 07:26am on 08 Nov 2010, Malc wrote:

    Perhaps the BBC should turn its attention to Canada, and report on a country that upholds the ideals of multiculturalism, and is rapidly becoming the last bastion of it in the world. Toronto is a city of over 4 million people, half of whom were born overseas - so how about a positive story on this matter and start showing people that it can work; start educating people.

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  • 40. At 08:11am on 08 Nov 2010, OneWhoQuestions wrote:

    Those who perceive and report an unpalatable truth are more commonly reviled than commended, and Thilo Sarrazin appears to be no exception.
    Events over the past twenty years or so suggest that the more devout the Muslim, the more hostile their attitude is toward Western society, so it does seem ironic that they flock to European countries in large numbers (often illegally) because the economic and political situation in their own countries is so appalling (why is it that so many Muslim countries are like that, I wonder?). Such Muslims are anxious to obtain the privileges of living and working in Europe, but refuse to accept the responsibilities that come with these privileges. There are already too many “parallel societies” in Europe and the UK, and not just Muslim ones; this is because it is all too easy for those in them to simply opt out of the moral, ethical, and legal requirements of the host country by hiding behind shrill accusations of racism and xenophobia fired from behind the walls of their enclaves and ghettos.

    I must take issue with the comments of MarcusAureliusII posted earlier this evening; even if Europe’s population is aging and in decline, does that entitle immigrants to flood in and impose their culture on their hosts? If he was an elderly person living by himself in his own house would he accept not only being forced to house large numbers of squatters, but also having to adopt their values and customs? I think not.
    As for Europeans clinging to their history and their land as an integral part of their core values, are Muslims and other immigrants any different? What about the Arab-Israeli conflict? Or the internecine conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia, and Pakistan, to name but a few? Perhaps the real problem is that such immigrants, having lost that connection to their own country, seek to establish a new one in the country where they end up, fully intending it to be at that country's expense.
    Regarding the premise that European way of dealing with immigrants is to first exclude them and then condemn them as being unable to integrate, this is nonsense. If an immigrant wants to live in another country, then he must do so on that country’s terms. If he doesn’t care for those terms he must go somewhere else where they are acceptable to him. The real problem is that European and UK society and government have been lamentably weak and spineless in defending their own core values, making it far too easy for the immigrants coming in to impose their own.

    Now that this particular elephant in the room has finally been mentioned there is, predictably from some quarters, horror and outrage that anyone could be so indelicate; however, it should be seen as a wake-up call for Western countries that want to retain the societies (however imperfect) that they have developed over centuries, and which actually have incorporated many different cultures and ethnicities over that period without being overrun by them.

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  • 41. At 08:15am on 08 Nov 2010, Gheryando wrote:

    has anyone seen the "muslim demographics" youtube video? Interesting.

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  • 42. At 08:30am on 08 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    #22 margaret howard

    --✄-- The last muslim empire, the Ottoman Empire, collapsed in 1918 in the aftermath of WWl. --✄--

    Some clarifications margaret so i could at the end make my personal conclusions. Not that you are wrong but from my point of view it ends at 1908 with the last sultan Abdülhamid II

    (to be more specific, the last one was Mehmed V. His reign began on 27 April 1909 but he had no real political power. Died at 1918 at the age of 73, only four months before the end of World War I)...

    ...and the beginning of the Second Constitutional Era of the Young Turk Revolution (July 3, 1908) and the sultan's announcement of the restoration of the 1876 constitution and the reconvening of the Ottoman Parliament.

    This political act transforms the Ottoman Empire to a Turkish nation and 2 years later with the Balkan wars is no more, geographically speaking, an Empire in Europe, turning to be more or less the today Turkish nation.

    Apart of course the British point of view (the British invaded Mesopotamia, taking Baghdad in March 1917. On the Gaza front, the British and Arab forces cooperated; Jerusalem fell in December 1917, Damascus on October 1st 1918) that to me was more a coup de grâce (blow of mercy) that ended the suffering of a moribund creature.

    With the Greek - Turkish war in 1922 Turkey changes in 1924 into a democratic and secular nation-state by Kemal Ataturk (introducing the Latin alphabet instead of the Arab and claiming to treat all its citizens equally regardless of religion, and claims to avoid preferential treatment for a citizen from a particular religion/nonreligion over other religions/nonreligion etc. Of course after having exterminated them first: Armenian, Greek, Assyrian genocide)...

    ...till today new Erdogan's era who tries to change Turkey back to a Muslim nation and give rebirth to a Neo-Ottomanism policy with the Davutoglu (foreign minister) doctrine

    i.e. embracing again the reside Muslim minorities of the Balkans claiming them as Ottoman empire heritage and by so, start controlling states trough them by using them as baits (Bosnia, Albania, Fyrom, Bulgaria and Greece and of course, not as a whole but in some parts, Germany and Europe). Same policy with Armenia, Irak, Syria, Iran from the oriental front etc.

    In one phrase: "The policy of the fisherman"...the so called by the Turks ‘zero problems with neighbors’ policy

    1) keep quiet
    2) be patient
    3) be familiar with the area and the feeding habits of the fish in that area. Once you learn the spots they produce year in and year out,you could be in a coma and wake up in late june and know right where to go
    4) puts in his time and does not complain about it.
    5) doesn't have to say a word, his fish will speak for him.
    6) Trying to compare the product of your catch with someone who has far more time to fish,
    7) The more you are out there, the more you see, the more you hear, the more you are able to pick up subtle changes but if you are out there all the time, the rest of your life could start to fall apart.

    The true fishing ability, put a nation up against a group of other fisherman (against a finny quarry that no one in the group has much knowledge of), all on unfamiliar water, preferably, and this would be the hardest part of the equation. and most of all is the one who catches fish, but at the same time try to fake-demonstrate to the other fisherman of the group (NATO) that respects "Nature" and all that "Nature" has given him and that "appreciates", "enjoys" and "does not destroy".

    and just to mention one fishing trophy: Turkey well used this fisherman policy at the expense of Cyprus people.

    Germans can debate over immigration over and over but they well know that the problem has only one culprit. The Turk immigrants. The other Muslim immigrants in Germany are not so much, so nationalists and organized like the Turks and mostly can't be defended by their so weak Muslim nations unlike Turkey.

    of course "fishermen's" time as well as the fishes will tell who will win at the end...

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  • 43. At 09:05am on 08 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    MM "He was there to promote his book, Germany Abolishes Itself. He is both reviled and admired for its controversial thesis."


    Mark, Thilo Sarrazin, who's not a ricist, let alone a neonazi some PC folls try to paint him as, certainly doesn't need to promote his book much.

    I'ts been on bestsellers list for quite few months [check], and additional prints are regularly produced out of necessity.

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  • 44. At 09:08am on 08 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #33.

    Of course, I meant 'Gavin'


    Mark Mardell obssesing these days about Tea Party and Sarah Palin. :)

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  • 45. At 09:09am on 08 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "His [Sarrazin's] message is that Muslim migrants must accept German laws, the constitution and the values of their new society."


    How outrageous! And unfair. SHOCK! SHOCK!

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  • 46. At 09:10am on 08 Nov 2010, Commodus wrote:

    Re 12 MAII

    "I think the number of Muslims living in the US is about 3 million. Violence in which they are the perpetrators are rare. How many violent criminals as a percentage of Europeans are Muslims compared to their percentage of the population? The most heinous violent crimes committed in Europe are almost invariably perpetrated by Christians...inclduing by priests."

    You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. There is near zilch percentage of muslims in the US. Even taking that into account, the 'natives' don't wan't a mosque built in new york a few blocks aways from WTC.

    In France alone there is between 5 and 6 millions muslims, which is about 10% of the population. Although statistics by ethnics/religions are forbidden in France, unofficial figures estimate the level of crimes committed by immigrants at 30 to 40%, which is way more than the 'natives' in percentage.

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  • 47. At 09:12am on 08 Nov 2010, Mathiasen wrote:

    #40. At 08:11am on 08 Nov 2010, OneWhoQuestions
    Round about 85% of all immigrants in Germany is well integrated. You can’t count on that something similar is the case by our neighbours. It doesn’t make a lot of sense to blame 85% for the problems with the rest.

    Secondly; There is not one moment of doubt about our values. Go back to the (Age of) Enlightenment and you will find them. To be a member of EU you will have to comply with the Copenhagen criteria, where these values are embedded, and since Turkey does not comply it is not ready to be a member of EU.
    Social rights, equality between men and women, freedom from discrimination on the basis of gender and religion, rule of law, and democracy are written into the German constitution for instance as well as in most other constitutions of European countries.

    Where do we find the enemies of these things? Among Islamic extremists and home grown right wing populists like Sarrazin. With the chairman at the head the Labour Party, SPD, has taken the first steps of an expulsion procedure of its member Thilo Sarrazin because of this, not to mention his horrible viewpoints regarding genetics and intelligence that brought him in conflict with German history and led to his dismissal from Bundesbank.

    Finally, in Germany Sarrazin is way down the agenda. Our economy is booming, and we have other things to do. We are wasting our time with this, thanks to Mr. Hewitt, and will not get anywhere before people understand the demographic situation and what it means to the immigration policy. Sarrazin is disturbing this policy with his rubbish, and that is the real reason why he was dismissed. It will be a great day when Mr. Hewitt finds out.

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  • 48. At 09:14am on 08 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    'The premier in Bavaria, Horst Seehofer, has called for an end to immigration from "Turkey and other Arab countries".'


    Turks are certainly not Arabs. Neither are Iranians (Persians) btw.

    Although they're almost all Muslims (Shia or Sunni).

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  • 49. At 09:19am on 08 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    GH: "he says there is a deep anger in society over stories, for instance, that some female teachers have been shown disrespect by Muslim boys."


    There are many almost identical reports from France.


    [ditto re an abuse of women/girls in Muslim immigrants' families]

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  • 50. At 09:29am on 08 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "At his public book launch in Potsdam, Sarrazin noted that he was amazed that hundreds of pages, in which he criticises the Germans themselves, were hardly talked about, but his passages about integration triggered a visceral reaction."



    After Muslim riots I've read very carefully couple of hundred pages of Salman Rushdi's (under death fatwa for many years) "Satanic Verses".

    To find out that the book hardly deals wih Islam at all.


    [Much later we've found out that violent protesters didn't read the book; but, moreover, many of them couldn't even read. :(]

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  • 51. At 09:34am on 08 Nov 2010, Sam wrote:

    I am of Indian origin and had lived in Germany for 6.5 years. In my experience, once I studied the language and took the effort to integrate, I had no problems whatsoever to integrate. I still maintain the friendships and I still go back as a tourist.
    As they say, when in Rome, do as the Romans do. Maybe the people who complain of Germany as a "cold country inhabited by cold people" should think of this and act accordingly. If you respect other people and their values and try to help the society instead of harming it, they will respect you and your values and help you when you need help. My experience there was totally different from that of the complainers and I have very good memories of the Vaterland.

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  • 52. At 09:34am on 08 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "To be a Muslim, under these conditions, is to be fearful..."



    Merely couple of weeks liberal-left NPR (National Public Radio)
    has summarily fired a well known liberal-left, black journalist (Juan Williams) who was careless enough to state on FoxNews that he felt fearful when seeing obvious Muslims in lines at American airports.

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  • 53. At 09:37am on 08 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #8 popolfi "If this is racist, so are Australians !!!"




    At a recent Tea Party's rally in Washington, D.C. a young man held a plackcard which read:

    'IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT MY SIGN SAYS; YOU'LL CALL ME A RACIST ANYWAY"

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  • 54. At 09:39am on 08 Nov 2010, phillipwest wrote:

    38. At 06:10am on 08 Nov 2010, Mathiasen

    When Sarrazin's book was released in Sept, he was met by a reflexive barrage of criticism across the board from within his own party (Socialist), government ministers, and other members of the Bundesbank accusing him of the usual sins, Islamophobia, racism and xenophobia. After it became evident that the average citizen in Germany wanted more information the backpedalling began. From what I hear and read in the German media there is a huge disconnect between the people and their representatives, who are hellbent on multikulti at any cost. An editorial writer will write the usual puff piece on Islam or immigrants, how nice they are and how we need them so much, and the readers particularly in Die Welt Online will respond with hundreds of comments critical of the article and often thousands of votes on readers comments heavily skewed against the current policy of immigration. What party apparachiks such as von der Leyen or Schawan or even Wulff, who you allude to, think or say is much less interesting or revealing. You are correct when you suggest populist parties on the right are irrelevant, although you fail to mention the main party on the right is virulently anti-Semitic, hosting such people as KKK member David Duke from the US and even Muslim Palestinian activists. Sarrazin's book is loaded with statistics and so far I have seen no effective rebuttal on the merits of his claims that Muslim immigrants dis-proportionally absorb resources and have created a growing, hostile parallel society. The average citizen there seems concerned even if their elected representatives or you are not.

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  • 55. At 09:45am on 08 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "My mother is Lebanese and ashamed and horrified of those (so called) "Lebanese refugees" leading all crime statistics in Berlin by far!"



    It may be worth mentioning in view of a certain Greek poster's obsessive/compulsive anti-American slurs, that during GWB's Administration a chief of the crucial CENTCOM (Central Command, in charge of both Iraq and Afghan military theaters) was a Lebanese Arab by birth, quite able gen. John Abizaid.


    BTW. It is said, that in attempts to score cheap political points, quite a few posters here and in HYS intentionally confuse Muslim Arabs/Persians/Turks with ISLAMIST FANATICS.


    Claiming that by vehemently rejecting the latter, we're racists denigrating the former. Typical. :(

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  • 56. At 09:46am on 08 Nov 2010, John wrote:

    I am quite shocked that the BBC have even mentioned something like this, because I was convinced that the BBC are still pro-multicultaralism and pro-immigration.

    This is only changing the debate among politicians. If you poll the citizens of any EU country they will all be worried about immigration, and especially muslim immigration because Islam is fundamentally incompatible with Western values. We can either spend another 20 years pretending the problem doesn't exist like Labour and BBC have done, or we can start learning from our mistakes.

    We need higher quality immigration, skilled and educated people are welcome in limited numbers. We need greater deportation of foreign criminals, ignoring the inane EU human rights rules. We need to enshrine certain British values and freedoms and we need greater freedom to criticise religion. Without this, we will slowly see our media, education and arts suffocated and censored by Islam and even Christianity.

    Wake up people, it is not racist to be opposed to a dangerous religion, it is the duty of every freethinking responsible citizen.

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  • 57. At 09:50am on 08 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #9 MAII.

    It's the same as perenial lefties claiming that those Americans who don't want to legalize ca 20 million of illegal aliens (mostly Mexicans) Americans are racists discriminating against Latinos.

    Same goebbelsian demagogy.

    [LAY IT THICK AND SOMETHING WILL STICK]

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  • 58. At 09:55am on 08 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "The great issue of our age is not whether non-indigenous peoples in Europe can integrate. It is whether the indigenous European peoples can survive genetically, as peoples living in their own ancestral homelands."




    Now, that's a crucial question:

    At which point a country (any country) and its population loses its traditional character, culture or even language?

    Inquiring minds want to know.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ["Mithinks already in that city broil
    I seem lording it in London streets"

    (The Bard)]

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  • 59. At 10:02am on 08 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Alice in Wonderland wrote: Reminds me of a saying - but I saw it on "Russian JOKES" site last week; "Europe has got only two problems; those who come with a sword and those who come with a mosque"




    Alice, in view of an outcome of recent referendum in Switzerland one might gather that a majority of the Swiss have a problem with a height of their minarets.

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  • 60. At 10:08am on 08 Nov 2010, Mathiasen wrote:

    #54. At 09:39am on 08 Nov 2010, philipwx
    How you do it, I don't know.
    CDU+CSU+FDP has a majority, and von der Leyen and Schawan is conducting the policy of the majority.
    I have already said, what is necessary about Sarrazin and SPD.

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  • 61. At 10:22am on 08 Nov 2010, Oscar wrote:

    I am a Turk living in Germany. Whenever I go down to town centre, I always here people speaking Turkish among themselves and I observe them, how they behave and what they say, how they dress. I see lots of Turkish girls, not wearing headscarf dressed like a European, I go the bank office, I see German-Turkish girls working in the bank dressed just like any other German collegue. I don't think they cound as Turks. The only time someone registers as a Turk is when they see girl wearing a headscarf, any other time they are assumed to be Greek, Italian or Spanish not Turkish.

    I think real problem will start when Turks start to integrate. Then They will be competitors for the high paying jobs and this would generate jealosy and more hate towards Turks not less.

    Jews were well integrated into German society, they had German names, they could speak German, in fact many thought that they were Germans, and they were quite shocked to learn that their Christian country man did not think so. Being integrated did not really help them, they were exterminated in large numbers, not because they were not integrated but they were different.

    I don't beleive that the Turkish integration will change a thing about how Germans feel towards Turks. My uncle is quite rich guy and not your steriotypical Turk in the way he dresses and behaves in Belgium and he feels the hated, people don't like the fact that a foreigher is richer than they are. It is not about intergration.

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  • 62. At 10:26am on 08 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Reminds me of a saying - but I saw it on "Russian JOKES" site last week; "Europe has got only two problems; those who come with a sword and those who come with a mosque"



    Stevenson, this portal's software still malfuntions during an upgrade so only anti-Catholic/anti-papal jokes are allowed.

    So sorry for still not posting what I have promised.

    ["There'll be time for us" - "West Side Story"]

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  • 63. At 10:26am on 08 Nov 2010, Norman Conquest wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 64. At 10:29am on 08 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Perhaps the BBC should turn its attention to Canada, and report on a country that upholds the ideals of multiculturalism, and is rapidly becoming the last bastion of it in the world. Toronto is a city of over 4 million people, half of whom were born oversea"




    Is that why after so many years Canadian justice system still cannot issue sentences for terrorists who blue up Air India jumbo jet?

    "Oh, Canada!" :(

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  • 65. At 10:32am on 08 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #40 OneWhoQuestions...

    "The real problem is that European and UK society and government have been lamentably weak and spineless in defending their own core values"




    And it's true even more for Continentals than UK.

    Although when I read the Archbishop of Canterbury's statement that "introducing some Sharia laws in UK would improve social harmony" :(

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  • 66. At 10:37am on 08 Nov 2010, tom_harries wrote:

    " You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. There is near zilch percentage of muslims in the US. Even taking that into account, the 'natives' don't wan't a mosque built in new york a few blocks aways from WTC."

    Wrong! There are believed to be anything between 4 million and 7 million Muslims in the US. No-one is sure how many exactly as it is illegal to ask, but it's believed to be more than in France. For obvious reasons, they tend to keep quiet!

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  • 67. At 10:39am on 08 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re "Muslim minorities in the Balkans"


    It took U.S. to finally stop Bosnian Muslims' slaughter which impotent EU allowed in heart of EUROPE was unable/unwilling to prevent.


    SREBRENICA anyone?

    BTW. I have yet to see any Turkish/Bosnian fanatics attempting to blow up passenger planes or assorted trade centers.


    [terrorists who've sent letter bombs to French, German, etc., leaders just a few days ago were of Greek origin, it seems]

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  • 68. At 10:40am on 08 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    > If Sarrazin’s point was Parents who don’t care about their children skipping school
    > should be fined, why would Gavin have inserted the (for religious reasons) bit
    > after an interview with him?

    I have no idea what Gavin is meaning here. (Maybe muslim girls which are not allowed to learn swimming at school?)

    Read the post from "BosniaHerc" and you get an idea about the macho mentality teachers are confronted with nowadays. Those teachers are looking away in a false understanding of tolerance.

    An enlighted society should never tolerate intolerance.


    Please read Necla Kelek's and Matthias Matusseks comments for deeper analysis:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11170314

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,716648,00.html

    They are from a time where 95% of the political class - including Merkel - were trying to silence Sarrazin by all means. Now they are falling into the other extreme.

    cheers

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  • 69. At 10:59am on 08 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    " You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. There is near zilch percentage of muslims in the US. Even taking that into account, the 'natives' don't wan't a mosque built in new york a few blocks aways from WTC."



    A reply: "Wrong! There are believed to be anything between 4 million and 7 million Muslims in the US."







    With Islam being the fastest growing religion in the U.S. [check].

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  • 70. At 11:10am on 08 Nov 2010, x15 wrote:

    There is an interesting sociological phenomenon at work here. The post war generation live with the shadow of the Holocaust. All thinking must be cleansed totally of any perception of racism to the extent that racism has changed in meaning. To complain about Muslims or anything to do with race is to invite immediate condemnation as a Nazi. So I must apologise first for being a racist under this new definition. Stop all immigration from Islamic countries until we are no longer at war with them and they with us and they stop being racist under the old definition.

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  • 71. At 11:14am on 08 Nov 2010, Dave H wrote:

    @popolfi Once upon a time it was religious fundamentalists opting out of school, but now you'll find plenty of mainstream parents disillusioned with school and choosing to do the job themselves for perfectly secular reasons. The religious homeschoolers tend to associate as a group, as do the rest, but the two groups are usually entirely separate.

    Perhaps this shows that religion (and beliefs in general), in whatever guise, is the cause of the failure to integrate. It's ironic that they all call for tolerance and understanding, but fail to translate the abstract into practice.

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  • 72. At 11:15am on 08 Nov 2010, well_spoken wrote:

    "You have to accept our laws... Just because you come from a different culture where a man can treat his wife differently, you can't do that here. There can be no compromise." I think it would pay anyone reading this blog and these comments to google/look up 'Rechtsstaat', the origins of the term, how it has variously been interpreted, and what it still means to men such as Joachim Herrmann and Thilo Sarrazin. (That's it - it was either a short comment or a 10,000 essay starting with Kant's political thought...)

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  • 73. At 11:24am on 08 Nov 2010, KMAA wrote:

    After the Germans have attacked the rights of Muslims, which group will be attacked next? We need to remember Pastor Martin Niemöller's words.

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  • 74. At 11:24am on 08 Nov 2010, x15 wrote:

    We are all eating Halal in the UK and we do not protest.
    Muslim faith treats women diametrically opposite to feminists but they do not protest.
    Muslim extremeists spread hate but where is the complaint from the left wing - I wonder if they would be so silent if such bile was from the mouths of white South Africans.
    We have an open door with Pakistan, Afghanistan, Eritrea, and other such failed states that are bringing terrorism to this country - and all that is said it is our fault for not integrating them
    We live in times were people are in fear of speaking the truth.
    Its just bonkers.....but perhaps it IS starting to change as we have Merkel and Sarkosy are changing the agenda so that the BBC that is rife with liberal totalitarianism starts to report on the subject. Not much backbone in our own Dave C. He just keeps saying his hands are tied.

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  • 75. At 11:52am on 08 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    #61. Oscar

    --✄-- I think real problem will start when Turks start to integrate. Then They will be competitors for the high paying jobs and this would generate jealousy and more hate towards Turks not less.

    Jews were well integrated into German society, they had German names, they could speak German, in fact many thought that they were Germans, and they were quite shocked to learn that their Christian country man did not think so. Being integrated did not really help them, they were exterminated in large numbers, not because they were not integrated but they were different.

    ...It is not about integration. --✄--

    That is a valid argument that I've also pointed out in a previous post 'Failure' of multiculturalism and of course the other side my #42 "coin story"


    #67 pmc

    --✄-- terrorists who've sent letter bombs to French, German, etc., leaders just a few days ago were of Greek origin, it seems --✄--

    Terrorists? letter bombs? I think it was more like a Trick-or-treating children celebration for the Halloween. Greek children in costume that went from "house to house leaders", asking for treat such as candy or money otherwise "threat" to perform mischief on the homeowners by setting fire to some post letters.

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  • 76. At 12:12pm on 08 Nov 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Commodious #46;

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States

    "There is no accurate count of the number of Muslims in the United States, as the U.S. Census Bureau does not collect data on religious identification. There is an ongoing debate as to the true size of the Muslim population in the US. Various institutions and organizations have given widely varying estimates about how many Muslims live in the U.S. These estimates have been controversial, with a number of researchers being explicitly critical of the survey methodologies that have led to the higher estimates.[61]

    Others claim that no scientific count of Muslims in the U.S. has been done, but that the larger figures should be considered accurate"

    American Religious Identification Survey 1.3 million (2008)
    Pew Research Center 2.5 million (2009)
    Encyclopædia Britannica 4.7 million (2004)
    U.S. News & World Report 5 million+ (2008)
    Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) 7 million (2010)

    When Muslims adopt our values and reconcile them with their religious beliefs, if they qualify in all other respects the way others who want to become American citizens do, they can become citizens and fully integrate into American society. On average, they have more education and higher incomes than the average of all Americans. Where their values and beliefs come into conflict with our laws and they violate them, they will be arrested, prosecuted, and punished just like everyone else. That Europe doesn't enforce the laws it has or only enforces them selectively is one reason for its problems. For example, soccer hooligans who started riots, burned cars, blinded a policeman would find themselves in jail for a time that reflects their crime, the number of times they repeated it, and they would be liable for civil damages they caused by their crimes including punitive damages. That doesn't seem to happen in Europe. Laws just aren't enforced. That includes laws against discrimination against minorities in places of public accomodation, housing, education, employment, in fact in everything that allows people to integrate and become full participants in society.

    Among the areas where there are concentrations of Moslem populations are, Detroit Michigan, Newark New Jersey, and large numbers of Iranian emigrees tot the US in Los Angeles California. There are others however they are also scattered out throughout the US just like everyone else. There are many American converts to Islam too including some famous people like Casius Clay who became Mohammed Ali. I've met many myself.

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  • 77. At 12:18pm on 08 Nov 2010, phillipwest wrote:

    60. At 10:08am on 08 Nov 2010, Mathiasen wrote:
    #54. At 09:39am on 08 Nov 2010, philipwx
    How you do it, I don't know.
    CDU+CSU+FDP has a majority, and von der Leyen and Schawan is conducting the policy of the majority.
    I have already said, what is necessary about Sarrazin and SPD.

    CDU+CSU+FDP has a majority? Really, You must not be paying attention to polls showing Green+SPD some twenty points ahead of the parties you mentioned with FDP now under the required 5%. These ministers you mentioned are irrelevant as far as representing public opinion, imo. If CDU is to survive it will likely be under Guttenburg or less likely Seehofer. Regional elections soon will be a bellweather for the fortunes of the current administration under Merkel and Wulff. Anyway your diatribe against Sarrazin is predictably absent of fact or coherent argument. He was forced out of the Bundesbank by forces from the top certainly not by public opinion and the Jewish gene references he made in his book were quite in line with current genetic research clearly identifying Ashkenazi jews with mideast populations. The sanctimonious outcry against Sarrazin on that point seemed quite disingenuous.

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  • 78. At 12:21pm on 08 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #23 Threnodio

    Within the EU a strict separation between Church and State has been mentioned, however the Churches and many (if not most) national governments blocked the idea.

    Britain would have the most problems, as the Head of State is also the head of the Church of England.

    The UK cry of `no more power to the EU´ has more to it as the British anti-EU simpletons realize.

    --amongst them being no ´God´in ´God save the Queen´

    I believe an apology is in order --unless the comment was blind Nationalism.

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  • 79. At 12:30pm on 08 Nov 2010, Norman Conquest wrote:

    76. At 12:12pm on 08 Nov 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    ....

    There are many American converts to Islam too including some famous people like Casius Clay who became Mohammed Ali....

    ++++
    ...and continued happily to eat pork for many years as I happen to know on good authority... he had (still has) no idea what he converted to.

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  • 80. At 12:43pm on 08 Nov 2010, betuli wrote:

    The problem is not the muslim population as a whole, but only those with extreme ideas based on imposing the sharia in their adopted countries as an aim to pursue. That is unacceptable, as it is any message of racial hatred in this case against the West (Christians, Jews, atheists and agnostics). In my view, European societies want more severity from their governments against all radical muslim individuals or organizations living in Europe, like it could be instant deportations.

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  • 81. At 12:52pm on 08 Nov 2010, Mathiasen wrote:

    #77. At 12:18pm on 08 Nov 2010, philipwx
    Well, to my surprise you are putting more weight on A POSSIBLE MAJORITY in the opinion polls by the left wing in Germany over THE FACTUAL MAJORITY. There are two years to next general election, which is a half generation in politics.

    Apart from this the hostilities against immigrants don’t stand a chance if the next government is made up by a coalition of SPD and the Greens.
    Fortunately.

    You will not understand anything of this before you realise what the demographic connection is.

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  • 82. At 12:55pm on 08 Nov 2010, alan wrote:

    Integration - non integration. Separate communities. Religion - culture.
    It's simple.
    For all it's faults, democracy attemtps to treat all people equally.
    People includes women and men.
    I'm atheist. Catholics won't let women be priests. Muslims won't let women be anything. What right has man to 'control' woman ? If us men are so powerful and have the 'right' to determine lives of women by twisting books written 2000 + years ago, when these so called intellects thought the world was flat, why do women live longer than men ? If woman is just the vessel, then man is just cargo. Hey, we've moved on from cannibalism, sun worship, flat earth, inquisitions etc. Maybe we can move on from women bashing...............
    MMMMMMMM.... Al shabab and Somalia, or London and the Tories.......
    Well, I'm no Tory, but I'm not going to live in Mogadishu !

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  • 83. At 12:56pm on 08 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 84. At 1:03pm on 08 Nov 2010, captain_sensible wrote:

    I'm not clear why it is even necessary to have this discussion. My understanding of the Koran (or Q'ran or however it is being spelled this week) is that it puts an obligation on all Muslims who find themselves living in a non-Muslim country to immediately move to a country that IS Muslim.

    So surely on that basis Muslims living in Christian countries can't be devout or they wouldn't be there. Hence integration (and ditching the Niqab etc.) should not be an issue. Plus they have a major security advantage over Christians living in Islamic countries as it's highly unlikely that a bunch of 'religious cleansing' Christians are going to machine-gun them in their Mosque!

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  • 85. At 1:13pm on 08 Nov 2010, Bobhead wrote:

    @76 Homer Simpson wrote:
    "The American Civil War was the result of Europeans bringing their slaves to the new world starting with the first settlement at Jamestown."

    I was under the impression that the British abolished Slavery some 50 odd years before the American civil war?
    I also read that had it not been for the need to aquire frontline infantry then the abolishion slavery would not have even been on the cards.

    But while were on the topic of the cause of 'civil wars', will you accept that the US and their allies (Britian included) are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq?

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  • 86. At 1:28pm on 08 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    In this time of financial need, by adopting a law similar to the Moslem law of taxing others of different faith living in Moslem countries --perhaps Moslems would be more welcome in European society ?

    Their social position may then be appreciated more than those tax avoidance and evaders whose rights we defend.

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  • 87. At 1:32pm on 08 Nov 2010, ghostofsichuan wrote:

    One must remember that governments are most responisve to banking and big businesses. Business likes cheap labor and pressures governments to increase immigration from poor countries to provide a pool of cheap labor. Europe is to the Muslim world what the U.S. is to Mexico and others South of that border.
    Japan has been struggling with this matter for some time. Japan maintains policies that protect the Japanese culture. Foreign born and the immigrants do not receive full participation rights. Japan wishes to remain Japanese and is not prone to the struggles of integration. They have their critics but this is for the Japanese to decide.
    The overwhelming culture of Consumerism and a world economy that pits production in higher standard of living countries against lower standard of living countires is the work of the multi-nationals who only have a concern about profits and care little about the fundemental structure of the social fabric of countries.
    Integration is a slow process and the political are always looking for distractions for the people when the economies are going badly. Integration is a generational process. Minorities are an easy target.
    Anger that should be directed at bankers and politicians is being focused on immigrants. Don't expect integrity from you politicians.

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  • 88. At 1:40pm on 08 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Re #86

    However the other part of the law should NOT be adopted.

    --those who do not pay the tax --must leave

    --and those who do not leave can be killed.

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  • 89. At 1:41pm on 08 Nov 2010, Arrrgh wrote:

    We are in this situation because the liberal elite across europe decided it would be nice to have cheap labour and what better place to get it than in the third woirld. So they come with their funny ways and funny food, it doesn't matter they do the dirty jobs we white europeans no longer want to do.

    ....Sometime later, O no why are our cities now full of people wearing viels and spitting on the pavement. What has happen to the culture of europe. Stop the rot now or we will all be subject to there mad laws and ways.

    O well looks like white europeans have left it all a little late to stop the oil tanker and turn it around. Goodbye cruel world.

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  • 90. At 1:55pm on 08 Nov 2010, Dietrich wrote:

    # 61., # 75.

    Competition is always hard if it is worthwhile.

    Success is not easily accepted if it is gained by credits for the "dear foreigner" while all others have to struggle.

    And it well may be that there are "styles" of showing success, who are not very liked by many.

    Concerning the extermination of Jewish European:
    This happend not because they were integrated competitors (it helped partly to get assistance by those who got benefits from force them out), it happened mainly because criminals in power, assisted by any kind of appeasement from interior and exterior until it was too late, set up a that programme from the devil.



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  • 91. At 1:55pm on 08 Nov 2010, pandatank wrote:

    5. At 7:55pm on 07 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    " None ever gained anything out of being "tolerant". I am yet to find an example of a socially successful tolerant society."

    Give that tolerance is a central tenet of English society dating back to Elizabeth 1 "I will not make windows into mens souls" speech, perhaps you need to look a bit closer to home.
    As for examples of socially succesful intolerant societies, may I suggest Nazi Germany?

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  • 92. At 2:19pm on 08 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #87 GoS

    I think many feel ´coitused´from more than one direction simultaneously.

    The bankers came third in line --although the most damaging to society.

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  • 93. At 2:21pm on 08 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    A very crude basic population model of Greece (Ellas).

    Ellas_Pop(t) = Ellas_Pop(t - dt) + (births - deaths) * dt

    INIT Ellas_Pop = 10737428 {10,737,428 (July 2009 est.)}

    INFLOWS:
    births = Ellas_Pop * birth_fraction

    OUTFLOWS (where Imm_Pop is the immigration population):
    deaths = Ellas_Pop * death_fraction
    Imm_Pop(t) = Imm_Pop(t - dt) + (imm_birth_s - imm_deaths) * dt

    INIT Imm_Pop = 1000000

    INFLOWS:
    imm_birth_s = Imm_Pop * birth_fraction * imm_birth_fraction

    OUTFLOWS:
    imm_deaths = Imm_Pop * death_fraction * imm_death_fraction

    birth_fraction = 9.45 / 1000 {9.45 births/1,000 population (2009 CIA FACTBOOK on GREECE est.)}

    death_fraction = 10.51 / 1000 {10.51 deaths/1,000 population (July 2009 CIA FACTBOOK on GREECE est.)}

    imm_birth_fraction = 8 {The 8:1 ratio based on data from France}

    imm_death_fraction = 1 {multiplier}


    total_pop = Ellas_Pop + Imm_Pop


    His computer results show that, by year 2045, we can expect the Islamic population in Greece to match our Hellenic population.

    So, the question is:

    does anyone on this planet have any bright ideas on how to reverse this grim scenario?

    Or how can Greece be able to absorb this huge population growth?

    Or are we just to follow the MANY Islamic scholars on the Way to Stop Islam?

    from a Greek Professor, in Management Systems
    Director, System Dynamics Consultancy
    FORDHAM UNIVERSITY BUSINESS SCHOOLS (New York)

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  • 94. At 2:27pm on 08 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    > Jews were well integrated into German society, they had German names, they could speak German, in fact many thought that they were Germans, and they were quite shocked to learn that their Christian country man did not think so. Being integrated did not really help them, they were exterminated in large numbers, not because they were not integrated but they were different.

    It's a common myth to think the Allied in the 40s were liberal countries in a modern sense. Antisemitism was whitespread in all Christian countries, deeply rooted in the teachings of the church ("murderer of the lord").

    When hundred of thousands of Jewish Germans seeked a possibility to leave the country most of the Allies kept the door well closed. And the Allied propaganda didn't inform their population of the Holocaust, because they feared that people at home might think they are "fighting for a Jewish cause". The Allies never even tried to bomb a concentration camp or the railways going there.

    The Nuremberg Laws were actually modeled after the American Jim Crow laws. Brooklyn saw spontaneous festivities after Pearl Harbor, because it was only the "White America" being attacked.

    The concepts of "master race" was modeled after the British colonial system putting themselves at top of the Indian cast system. ("Russia shall be Germanys India")

    The deportation of Jews in occupied countries was eagerly done by local police forces. And more than 50% of German troops actually were actually foreigners, many who volunteered into SS for the "Anti-Bolshevist" cause. At the eastern front alone 2 Million Poles and 500000 Soviet citizens were involved on Nazi side, especially in Anti-Partisan fights and pogroms.

    Fascism started as an Anti-Communist movement, Mussolini used to be leader of a left wing party before founding the Fascist party.

    Also blaming Jews for Bolshevism wasn't an original German idea, the "Protocols of Zion" were a hoax of the (white) Russian secret service and maybe you are interested to check publications of a certain Winston Churchill about the "important role of atheist Jews in Bolshevism".

    Did anyone care to check if the Soviet Gulag system started earlier than Nazi KZs?

    While the Spanish Civil War is well known as first cruel confrontation between Communism and Fascism, nobody seems to remember the Greek Civil War, with the same percentage of casualties and brutality. Maybe because the Greek one was after WWII, and the anti-communists were now supported by the western allies?

    Ever heard of "Operation Unthinkable"?

    Lets speculate Britain would have lost WWI, with the effect of Ireland, Scotland and Wales becoming German satellite states. Some English industrial regions occupied by Austrian forces to assure the payment of reparations. And of course the English minorities would now have to learn and speak Welsh, Gaelic and Irish for all bureaucratic needs.

    Under this circumstances, are you really sure civilized England in the 30s wouldn't be susceptible for radical movements, maybe even scapegoating a part of the own population? The same English who build the first concentration camps ever during the Boer Wars and who were the biggest drug dealers in the Opium War to ruin China wouldn't hear to propaganda talking about self-defense?

    No? Wasn't the Irak war an act of self-defense? Sadam Hussein and (the btw Catholic) Tarik Assis personally bombing the WTC with weapons of mass destruction?

    Please take a deep look into the mirror and ask yourself if Germans are culturally more susceptible to fascism!

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  • 95. At 2:35pm on 08 Nov 2010, Commodus wrote:

    Re #66 tom_harries and #76 MAII

    You just emphasize my point. France, 65 millions people, the latest government figures put the number of moslems to 6-7 millions, around 10% of the population.

    USA : around 310 millions people, same number of moslems, therfore only 1 to 2% of the population.

    Germany : 81 millions souls, 4.5 millions moslems, 5.5% of the population.

    The USA have accepted/integrated many immigrants, but they do not have to manage a massive moslem immigration.

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  • 96. At 2:49pm on 08 Nov 2010, pandatank wrote:

    To Marcus Aurelius II,

    you see very clearly, the faults and foibles of Europe when it applies to the last century but completely ignore the very large part your country had to play in that history, particularly when it comes to WW2 and your countrymens sponsorship of the Nazis. You also suggest that it's a lack of enforcement that creates Europe's problems. Obviously not an issue in America considering the crime rate and the percentage of the population in US prisons. I wonder what problems you would see if the percentage of US Muslims was on a par with African -Americans, considering how well "integrated" they have become.

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  • 97. At 3:08pm on 08 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    #93

    --✄-- ...from a Greek Professor... --✄--

    For not making a confusion...i must clarify that of course I'm not him...

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  • 98. At 3:23pm on 08 Nov 2010, dave148 wrote:

    Nasty stuff. Everyone should be forced to learn the language. Everyone should be forced to integrate. They're not like us so they must be forced to do something. As someone wisely said, the jews in Germany were more integrated than in most countries before 1933.

    It's not to say there aren't issues. There are marginalised people in most societies (look at discussions about welfare payments in the UK). There are people who form closed societies. Some of those then prepare terror attacks. Most don't. The Amish in the US, or even the East Grinstead based organisation mentioned by one poster. The rights and responsibilities of people in societies is worth discussing, though doesn't lend itself to tabloid style posturing.

    As soon as you make sweeping generalisations on the basis of these complexities, particularly on the basis of race or religion, you are in dangerous territory. We know where it can lead, where it has led in the past.

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  • 99. At 3:47pm on 08 Nov 2010, Stevat wrote:

    #76, Football hooliganism is punished harshly and with custodial sentences in all of Western Europe. I'm not sure exactly what that has to do with this conversation mind you. I do agree with you though that the perpetual battle with our own sensibilities that we endure as Europeans has led to us not upholding our own laws. Like you I think that people should be held accountable to our laws if they are in our country, irrespective of their origins - but I also think that anybody should be welcomed into my country (the UK) if they are willing to abide by those laws. I have no qualms with any religion or any people, to me it matters not what other people believe in or do with their lives, so long as they don't attempt to impose it on others - that includes Christians (Who in my experience are the most intrusive). Freedom of movement should be a human right in my opinion, I can't imagine that immigration laws are applied to migrating birds or sea life for instance.

    A lot of people do seem to hold issue with the finance of such freedom though. Who should be eligible for social benefits seems to be a hot topic across Europe at the moment, particularly given the financial shortcomings of most Western countries.

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  • 100. At 4:46pm on 08 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #94 Popolfi

    --excellent !

    --unfortunately the majority are still waving their flags--denying to the death their ignorance of their own history !

    --this is Europes´ problem -- national governments and their generally mouthpiece obedient media assisting the dumbing-down.

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  • 101. At 4:47pm on 08 Nov 2010, ganglere wrote:


    In 2 centuries hence, we should hope that the remainder of us indiginous Europeans will be allowed to live in some carefully managed reservations, perhaps similar to those of the Indians (i.e., native Americans) today - maybe we will get permission to operate casinos and (fingers crossed) practice some Christianity?

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  • 102. At 5:08pm on 08 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #101 ganglere

    --- Marcus has already bought the land !

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  • 103. At 5:42pm on 08 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    #101 ganglere

    --✄-- In 2 centuries hence, we should hope that the remainder of us indigenous Europeans will be allowed to live in some carefully managed reservations, perhaps similar to those of the Indians --✄--

    Keep dreaming!...In 2 centuries with the actual modest 1.3% increase population we will be at that time from the today 6 billions we are...a good 95 billions upon earth.

    We can hardly bear each other today...imagine how will be in 2 centuries from now...if we ever make it trough time

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  • 104. At 5:46pm on 08 Nov 2010, Mathiasen wrote:

    Due to the article's mentioning of the word "religious" some misunderstandings might occur.

    The idea of certain German politicians is to exercise pressure through the welfare payments in order to get children to the school, whatever the reason for their absence is. The man behind this is first of all the SPD politician Buschkowsky, who is mayor in the Berlin district Neukölln, where the children and their parents have many reasons for absence. Contrary to Sarrazin Buschkowsky is endurable for SPD.

    For a number of reasons each and every state of the Federal Republic makes its own legislation concerning education. Still, children have the duty to go to school for nine years, but there are exceptions concerning the subject religion.
    Interested can find more through Wikipedia.

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  • 105. At 6:18pm on 08 Nov 2010, frenchderek wrote:

    marcus @76 got all the facts and legalities needed in this debate. Germany' problem was they delayed too long in changing their nationality laws. There was no incentive for immigrants (from wherever, outside the EU) to learn the language, to learn about citizenship, national law, etc.

    There's been the same debate here in France about Muslims. But French law insists that there are no divisions in society - if you hold French nationality you are French, live by French laws and respect French customs. Just look at the French football teams, past and present (Frank Ribery - of Bayern Munich - included) and see how many Muslims you can spot. (NB Frank is a Muslim).

    Immigrants are always "to blame" when an economic crisis threatens jobs and overturns "normal" life. Yet they do the jobs that locals won't do (they prefer to live off Social Security).

    Too many people on this blog seem to have swallowed the neo-con anti-Islamist line hook line and sinker.

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  • 106. At 6:23pm on 08 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #67 - powermeerkat

    "It took U.S. to finally stop Bosnian Muslims' slaughter which impotent EU allowed in heart of EUROPE was unable/unwilling to prevent."

    You really should check your facts. UNPROFOR was mandated in 1992, three years before Srebrenica. At that point, EU involvement as an organisation ended. If what you are saying was that it was a Dutch unit which had local responsibility, that much is true. If you are saying that they were present as part of an EU force, it is factually incorrect. They were there as a contingent force of the UN. The US no more stopped the slaughter than fly. They fulfilled a lead role in a UN exercise in which other forces were significantly engaged.

    The failure of the UN to reinforce the Dutch contingent and so prevent Srebrenica remains controversial but to cite it as an example of EU failure is grotesque.

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  • 107. At 6:24pm on 08 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #93. At 2:21pm on 08 Nov 2010, Ellinas

    "does anyone on this planet have any bright ideas on how to reverse this grim scenario? "

    Your words were as ever difficult to understand except for maybe Nik who could possibly translate Greek Hieroglyphics into understandable language, and as you know I do understand computer languages very well. However, back to the point.

    Two obvious ways spring to mind for Western societies and the first is to classify Islam as a cult of the same manner as many other cults that have been restricted for the safety of the population. Scientology is one such cult that although not banned is very dangerous, and there have been many exposes of their methods. The sole difference between them and Islam is that they believe in aliens, which could actually exist. The second but more bizarre way to correct the birth rate is more obvious, breed, however as a disadvantaged politically incorrect majority (or maybe minority) don't expect support.

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  • 108. At 6:35pm on 08 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    78. At 12:21pm on 08 Nov 2010, quietoaktree

    "Within the EU a strict separation between Church and State has been mentioned . . ". Really? By whom and in what context?

    ". . . the British anti-EU simpletons realize". If that comment refers to me, you either don't read my posts or you deliberately misrepresent them. I am a pro EU Brit living in the EU.

    What I am very definitely not is a Christian. It that makes me a less worthy participant in the European democratic process of which Germany is a part, then I have every right to complain about it.

    To whom do you suggest I owe an apology, what for and what the hell does it have to do with "blind Nationalism"? Britain was not mentioned once in my #23 and you know it.

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  • 109. At 6:49pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:


    Multiculturalism and Integration.

    Firstly I grew up in a colorful, multicultural part of London. I appreciate the fact I was exposed to so many different cultures, I gained a richer understanding of the world, right at my own doorstep.

    In regards to integration, as far as I am concerned this means, speaking the language, following the laws, and taking part in events that are required of you.

    This does not mean forgetting your own culture.

    I found that in North London, with the numerous ethnic societies living side by side this worked very well. I loved being at school with my Greek, Turkish, Italian, English, Filipino and many other classmates. We all spoke English, our families met and interacted, and we didn't break the law.
    Today many of my family, and ex classmates (including myself), work, pay taxes, and as far as I am aware are fully integrated into the British system.

    Why is religion an obstacle to integration? Does being a Muslim, such as myself automatically mean I simply 'cannot' integrate?

    Nobody would even guess I am Turkish, let alone a Muslim and the same goes for almost all of my family. The reason is we don't wear headscarves, I find that people have a phobia in regards to headscarves more than to being Muslim, they are ignorant of what being a Muslim actually is.

    What is wanted by certain and in my view simple people is: Muslims should eat pork, take off their headscarves and get drunk, then they will fully be integrated.
    Other wise whats all this fuss?

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  • 110. At 7:07pm on 08 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #109. At 6:49pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1

    As someone who also comes from a very multicultural area of London, please tell me just how and where you mix with other peoples and other religions, at school it is an obligation, outside not.

    PS. And I'm not talking about getting drunk as I've seen many drinking non-alcoholic drinks these days so that is both no excuse and a somewhat racist characterisation of non-Muslims. I also might add that some of the biggest drinkers I've known were guess what?

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  • 111. At 7:23pm on 08 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #110 - Buzet23

    For once, I am going to take issue with you. This whole thread has centered around the need for greater integration and participation then Go4aa1 puts his head over the parapet and tells us that is exactly what his family did and you have a go at him.

    He says they are law abiding, working, tax-paying members of society. What more do you want?

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  • 112. At 7:26pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    Where I mix?

    Do you ask this because you are implying I am anti-social or because I am Muslim and Turkish?

    I mix everywhere, work, nightclubs, parties, shopping, on the streets, come on.. you know just like other 'normal' people do!
    The fact that you ask this question is odd in itself. I find it very ignorant.

    Do you think that we sit at home 24 hours a day? That we don't go out into society?

    I hadn't intended to categorize anyone. To me It seems that, that is the only thing that the more religious Muslims don't do (Drink/eat pork/ uncover their hair), that's why I wondered whether that was the missing, integration link.

    I think education is key when you try to discuss integration of other cultures. First you must have real substantial knowledge of your own about that culture, not what somebody wrote in a book.

    I am a Brit, yet a Turk, and a Muslim.

    Also in regards to the fact some people here say: Turks don't intermarry?! that is preposterous. Yes some Turks, depending on their backgrounds 'fear' intermarrying, yet I know an awful many Turks, (including the women) who have intermarried with so many Non Muslim people.

    Come on people, can we stop generalizing and discriminating please?

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  • 113. At 7:33pm on 08 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    91 pandatank writes:
    "Give that tolerance is a central tenet of English society dating back to Elizabeth 1..."
    Just where do you people learn your history? The English were the biggest ethnic cleansers in Europe even before Elizabeth I was on the throne! Starting with being the first European country to expel the Jews in the 13th century and forbidding their return for over 500 years on pain of death. Cromwell swearing to drive the Irish into sea and nearly succeeding there being probably fewer than 800 000 left when he died and after that many of them and the Scots were driven to emigrate to suvive successive English onslaughts. Continue with dragging millions of African slaves into the new colonies in the Americas and Carribbean and ethinic cleansing of the existing populations of Carib indians, Tasmanians, American Indians, Australian aborigines and on and on and on and you will get a true picture of English tolerance.

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  • 114. At 7:42pm on 08 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 115. At 7:51pm on 08 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    76 Homer Simpson writes:
    "There are many American converts to Islam too including some famous people like Casius Clay who became Mohammed Ali."

    I remember an interview Mohammed Ali gave (to the BBC?) just after he converted to Islam. To the question of why he had converted he answered because of the discrimination he had suffered in America as a black man who became too successful.

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  • 116. At 7:53pm on 08 Nov 2010, Stevat wrote:

    Mags, you not a fan of the English? May I ask why? History does not have to be a window into the future, hopefully people have learned tolerance and change over the years.

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  • 117. At 7:56pm on 08 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #113 - margaret howard

    "Just where do you people learn your history?"

    The same place as you by the look of it. Jews were readmitted in 1655 and numbered more than 3,000 by the turn of the century. The Jew Bill of 1753 allowed naturalisation on application to Parliament.

    ". . . over 500 years on pain of death"? Absolute garbage Margaret.

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  • 118. At 7:58pm on 08 Nov 2010, Seraphim wrote:

    Guess why Sarrazin had time for this interview?

    I haven't heard anything from him in the German media for a month at least (possibly more). I don't think even the BILD newspaper warms up his stories again (and that one must be as bad as the SUN when it comes to using anything to sell copies).

    He mostly did what he assumed Germany was dfoing by abolishing himself. No influence anymore in the party no prestigious spot at the Bundesbank anymore.

    Btw. Glad to see Gavin correcting his mistake from the last post here: "There is no growth in far-right parties."

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  • 119. At 8:08pm on 08 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #111. At 7:23pm on 08 Nov 2010, threnodio_II

    #112. At 7:26pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1

    The last paragraph in #109 is why I wrote my reply as my experience in a number of countries has been that whilst there are many Muslims that are not overly religious and who mix very well, there are far more who seem to group themselves together, and that is the real problem. In the UK and Belgian I have seen that in many towns including Brussels, so it is neither ignorant of me or insensitive to ask that, it was a question based on what I have experienced. As I said I have known more than a few Muslims over the years and there are two friends who are in my village and mix totally, but there are more than a few areas in towns where I would not visit, is that mixing and integrating, again not ignorance but based on knowledge of what have become dangerous quarters.

    PS. I came from very close to Brixton so have had a great deal of experience of a multicultural area and the problems that can ensue and how dangerous ethnic banding can be.

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  • 120. At 8:18pm on 08 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    There seems to be a lot of confusion on this thread. There is no direct correlation between far-right parties and nationalism although it is the case that right wing parties tend to play the race card more ruthlessly. Nationalism can be found in various phases of the political spectrum. Also there is confusion between integration and immigration as though some people expect immigrants to integrate on arrival. The issue of integration applies to people who are already in Europe and possible even born here but are still not part of mainstream society. Whether or not this is a good thing I leave to others but it is certainly not the same thing.

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  • 121. At 8:19pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    Buzet using your logic, there are many non Muslims, who choose not to mix with Muslims and other religious groups.
    So what are you saying? .. that everyone is an individual and chooses whether to socialise with others or not?
    Gosh! we really should hang them.

    I have family all over Europe and America, perhaps it was those that you came across socialising..!

    Goodness, why does that matter anyway? the issue is integration in society and correct me if I am wrong, that does not include having to be friends or to socialise with other cultures, although that would be nice, it does however mean to RESPECT and comply with the foundations and laws laid down by the country of current residence.

    On the other hand we could of course deport all antisocial people... just a thought lol.

    Could you please clarify the 'dangers of ethnic banding' ?

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  • 122. At 8:24pm on 08 Nov 2010, Norman Conquest wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 123. At 8:25pm on 08 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #113. At 7:33pm on 08 Nov 2010, margaret howard,

    Two small points on the rubbish you posted,

    Firstly who are the Scots, merely an amalgam of Picts, Gaels, Norse, Britons and others, so just where did your Scots emigrate either from or to after the Romans built a wall to keep you in.

    Secondly regarding the use of slaves from Africa maybe you can elucidate just which Arab countries did the same before the British empire and others, after all the pyramids are reputed to have been built by slaves.

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  • 124. At 8:39pm on 08 Nov 2010, Stevat wrote:

    #121 -you're right of course, the fact is that there are lots of people that I don't want to integrate with as a British national. Not because I have any particular qualms or concerns about parts of society, but because I quite frankly don't have time or the inclination to be social all the time. So long as someone is happy and follows the rules of the society in which they live, then what is the problem with that?

    I love that certain cultures have found a way to integrate themselves into British society. Britain has changed for the better in that respect, up here in Newcastle the area which is now known as Chinatown has seen foreign investment revitalise a poorer part of the city, long may it continue. The problem people seem to have is largely based on the stories we see in our press, but in my opinion anyone who is going to come to Britain and abide by our laws is welcome, regardless of whether or not they want to talk to me or anyone else. I'm probably a little boring if I'm honest, they should look elsewhere for a more lively form of banter.

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  • 125. At 8:42pm on 08 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #121. At 8:19pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1

    Your third paragraph hits the nail on the head, "RESPECT and comply with the foundations and laws laid down by the country of current residence." When immigration tries to become colonisation there is no concept of respect and that is why Islam is attracting so much dislike whereas the Chinese, Indians, South East Asians etc have not had a problem. Its not that people are from abroad and rarely has been, I myself am a migrant to Belgium so I know how to integrate as well.

    There was an original problem in certain areas like Brixton with West Indians, but a large responsibility for that lies with the then loony left who saw them as canon fodder for their Socialist campaigns. You ask about why ethnic banding is so bad yet I'm sure you've heard the criticism of little Englanders abroad, they socialise but are rarely violent, however ethnic bands (gangs) of whatever race are by nature very violent, and if you add religious fundamentalism to that the results are catastrophic. Now do you understand what I'm saying?

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  • 126. At 8:59pm on 08 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #119 - Buzet23

    OK, point taken but it sounded pretty reasonable to me. On Brixton, it strikes me that there is a major difference between the Afro-Caribbeans in the sixties and seventies and modern Muslim communities. The discontent and aggression in that community arose largely through exclusion. They wanted to be as British as their white opposite numbers but encountered racism and prejudice, whereas large segments of the Muslim community seem to want to be separate and different. How many British born Afro-Caribbeans have you met who don't speak English, for example?

    I also find it interesting that, in modern times when racial tensions between black and white are far less than they were in those day, the black community seem to as uncompromising towards the Muslim community as many of their white brethren.

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  • 127. At 9:10pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    So moving away from your initial issue: The lack of socialising.

    In fact I think you will find you are still generalizing about whole ethnic groups, there are in fact Muslim Indians, and south East Asians. I haven't met any Chinese Muslims, but I am sure one or two probably exist.

    Colonization is a strong word to use, how exactly are these 'Muslims' colonizing Britain? Do you mean by choosing to live nearby to each other after having come from usually war torn areas and much tragedy, that they wish to feel some sense of norm in a country foreign to them..how dare they?
    Do you mean after facing racism when they have tried to live in mainly non Muslim areas?
    There is always 2 sides to the coin, it would do you good to flip it once in a while.

    The above comments are of course in regards to 1st generation immigrants, of course the next generations start to integrate, it is impossible not to.

    Religious Fundamentalism does not mean Muslim, this can occur in any religion, choosing to specifically point the finger at Muslims is a blatant reflection of media brainwashing.
    Not every Muslim is a fundamentalist, in fact that is a whole different issue.

    We have many ethnic problems in the UK, especially London, with the Yardies, and the Triads and so forth, they aren't known to be Muslim, both are violent. Yet they haven't colonized and live all over the UK.

    My point is you are focused upon blaming one religious group, you need to look at the underlyıng dynamics of the violence, if that exists and rather than blame, find a solution.
    I am sure the chelsea smilers were well integrated into British society, but that didn't stop them being violent or banding together.

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  • 128. At 9:16pm on 08 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    Re 7: There is no other measure of success than that:
    success of an entity (society, state, nation, company, football team, whatever human entity you wish) = continuation of the entity.
    In life, there is no other law. It is not getting rich for 10-20 years then vanish from the face of the earth. Rich were the Babylonians. Where are they now? Where were they 2000 years back? In the long run, they were highly unsuccessful by means of not being here with us as an entity while their very descendants avoid to deal with them or sometimes even worse, they might as well curse their names for having been the infidels they were. While you might not care what will happen in 2000 years time can you say you won't care what will happen in 10-20 years time? So much do you care about the society you leave down to your kids then?

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  • 129. At 9:20pm on 08 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    14. At 9:08pm on 07 Nov 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    """"The immigration problem in Europe is one Europeans created entirely by themselves."""

    Really? How?

    """They have nobody else to blame. They brought these people to Europe, encouraged them to come."""

    It is the European people who did so? Really?

    """As usual with their hair brained schemes that they never think through clearly or logically to its end, only considering the expediency of the moment, it blew up in their faces. OK Europe, you broke it, if you're so smart you fix it. This is one time Uncle Sam can't bail you out. You're on your own."""

    What you say is quite revealing of who is behind: the stability of a large number of European societies would be never to the liking of the US. Divide and conquer is the rule.

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  • 130. At 9:28pm on 08 Nov 2010, minto123 wrote:

    Did Europeans learn and integrate into local language and culture when they were imperialists in muslim countries and other asian lands? Europeans owe it to these countries. They have plundered the natural resources to enjoy a cup of tea in thier jolly england! SEVERAL COUNTRIES WERE STRIPPED OF THEIR RESOURCES WHILE THE ROYAL TREASURY WAS FILLED WITH WEALTH DERIVED FROM TORTURE, UNBEARABLE LABOUR, THEFT AND DIVISIVE POLICIES IN COUNTRIES LIKE TURKEY, EGYPT(NILE AND SUEZ CANAL), INDIA, PAKISTAN, BANGLADESH,AFGHANISTAN ETC. It is payback time. The third world will flood the european lands demanding the payback for centuries of voilence, injustice and deprivation of economic opportunities caused by europe. If you think i am making all this up, open any history book on the middle east and LEARN about the european rule in the middle east and then talk about this article

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  • 131. At 9:50pm on 08 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    121. At 8:19pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    Wait a minute Go4aa1. It is not my intention to start a Greece vs. Turkey thingie but then you have to be placed in the correct context:

    It is not even 100 years that Minor Asia (and this lets out Eastern Thrace with the huge christian population, majority of the population there), was about the 45% of the whole population!!!!

    You genocided it and cleared out any remaining groups (namely the Greeks of Constantinople) throughout the 20th century (during 1955 evetns and then). Then you invaded Cyprus where you slaughtered, ethnically cleansed the whole occupied part to the 100% extent and colonised it with turkish population from Turkey.

    In a few words, you have cleansed the 100% of your country from any non-muslim populations and then due to your super-sized families you multiplied 8-times so had spare population also to send to other countries in Europe, countries like Germany.

    Now, in Germany your lot protests about the non-acceptance by the Germans and about such.

    All I am asking, isn't it extremely ironic that one of the most intolerant populations on the face of this earth comes around to complain of the intolerance of others?

    I repeat this is not Greece vs. Turkey thingie - and in no way I refuse the capacity of a lot of Turks to integrate in the western society (I do believe they are doing much better in comparison to other muslims, though the Germans want to believe otherwise, perhaps they should have those French have to understand...).

    But my question is clear : isn't it time for a bit of introspection from the other side too? Doesn't the German or the British society have their own "musts" and "musts not" to which the immigrants have to get accustomed? Why don't other immigrants also of vastly different cultures complain?

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  • 132. At 9:59pm on 08 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    130. At 9:28pm on 08 Nov 2010, minto123 wrote:
    """"Did Europeans learn and integrate into local language and culture when they were imperialists in muslim countries and other asian lands?"""

    Basta minto. It was not Europeans. It was England, France, Holland and Portugal, not even Spain so much. On the opposide side, a large part of Europe suffered horribly the fate of being conqured by the regressive muslims. You want pay back? Start doing so you muslims to Minor Asia, Balkans and Ukraine. You have to pay billions for quite many generations for what you have done there.

    """Europeans owe it to these countries. They have plundered the natural resources to enjoy a cup of tea in thier jolly england!"""

    It is not Europeans. You speak of the British. Sort it out with them. The rest of the Europeans have nothing to do with that.

    """"SEVERAL COUNTRIES WERE STRIPPED OF THEIR RESOURCES WHILE THE ROYAL TREASURY WAS FILLED WITH WEALTH DERIVED FROM TORTURE, UNBEARABLE LABOUR, THEFT AND DIVISIVE POLICIES IN COUNTRIES LIKE TURKEY,...."""

    Turkey? Are you mad or something? Turkey is the continuation of the Ottoman Empire one of the most violent regressive regimes to have been imposed on the face of the earth. They plundered and tortured and stole 10 times more than what Europeans have done exploiting the till then most progressed part of the planet brining it to the middle ages it had never up to then known. So what are you talking about?

    Typical muslim. "The others owe to muslims, the others, never the other way round..."

    """It is payback time. The third world will flood the european lands demanding the payback for centuries of voilence, injustice and deprivation of economic opportunities caused by europe."""

    This has nothing to do with such. Payback is done on place, you don't have to travel to get it. How much more predictable can you become?

    """If you think i am making all this up, open any history book on the middle east and LEARN about the european rule in the middle east and then talk about this article"""

    What European rule in the middle East. You are talking about British. Sort it out with the British. What do the rest of the Europeans have to do with you? And if you take any reparations from the British do not get too happy over it cos you owe much more to the Eastern Europeans. Now get back to the history books and start reading about the crimes of the muslims. Do it for once in your life.

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  • 133. At 9:59pm on 08 Nov 2010, Stevat wrote:

    minto123, why is any of that my fault? You realise that by generalising not only the populous of one country but an entire continent you are displaying some fairly extreme prejudices right? Don't you think that people can learn from their mistakes?

    As I said, I don't mind who comes to Europe so long as they are willing to live by the laws of the land - as I would anywhere else on the planet. Everyone should be welcome, and social integration isn't a necessity in my mind.

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  • 134. At 10:02pm on 08 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #108 Threnodio

    --Only one recent example -- (over the past years)

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0109/1224261978083.html

    My post does NOT refer to you --if you believe there is more than meets the eye

    As you yourself said your posting was extreme, however to equate Merkel´s statement as similar to those who murdered-- when she was one of the few Christians in the DDR --is more than unfair after the oppression of Communism and now the apparent threat from radical Islam. Her party is unfortunately called Christian Democrat but her government is far less entangled with the Church, than say England. Where is the criticism ?

    You are not a Christian --presently I do not believe in a ´God´

    --so I agree --both views MUST be accommodated !

    --- Britain must be radically changed --to make us misfits feel a home ?

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  • 135. At 10:07pm on 08 Nov 2010, ptsa wrote:

    130. At 9:28pm on 08 Nov 2010, minto123 wrote:

    Did Europeans learn and integrate into local language and culture when they were imperialists in muslim countries and other asian lands? Europeans owe it to these countries. They have plundered the natural resources to enjoy a cup of tea in thier jolly england! SEVERAL COUNTRIES WERE STRIPPED OF THEIR RESOURCES WHILE THE ROYAL TREASURY WAS FILLED WITH WEALTH DERIVED FROM TORTURE, UNBEARABLE LABOUR, THEFT AND DIVISIVE POLICIES IN COUNTRIES LIKE TURKEY, EGYPT(NILE AND SUEZ CANAL), INDIA, PAKISTAN, BANGLADESH,AFGHANISTAN ETC. It is payback time. The third world will flood the european lands demanding the payback for centuries of voilence, injustice and deprivation of economic opportunities caused by europe. If you think i am making all this up, open any history book on the middle east and LEARN about the european rule in the middle east and then talk about this article

    ----------

    1) How many European countries had colonies in Asia and the M.E.? 2, maybe 3??

    2) Can you please let me know what European country colonized Turkey (the head of an empire that conquered many people for more than 500 years?

    3) Yeah yeah, the old imperial wrongdoings against all those countries. After so many years of independence, what have all those countries achieved (even with significant infrastructure left back by the "imperialists"?). Yes, the imperial powers added a lot to the suffering of the locals, but I have yet to see a country whose independence actually gave them a better quality of life. I am not saying that imperial rule should have stayed, but I am tired of hearing those countries blaming the Europeans their current domestic disputes, corruption and poverty. At least some of my friends (Nigerians) had enough courage to say that a country like Nigeria was 100% better functioning when under British rule, where everything worked like a clock and the money did not only go to just a few rich and corrupt Nigerian leaders.

    4) So you as a Muslim (I presume) are confirming the Muslim colonization of Europe as a retaliation for the problems created by ALL Europeans (supposedly) to the M.E. That's good to hear because most of your fellow Muslims are apparently in denial....

    5) You keep talking about the evil and agressive European colonial powers, forgetting that this was exactly how Mohhamed spread Islam in the M.E. and farther than that (he definitely did not do it by singing 'Kumbayah'. You also seem to forget the Muslim Empires (ie. Ottoman) throughout the years that enslaved many ethnicities and treated non-Muslim citizens as second class citizens (something still happening in many Muslim countries). Talk about denial...
    You also forget that such empires almost managed to "colonize" as you say most of Europe. Even after their demise, these colonies managed to keep territories that were not natively theirs to begin with. I guess you in the M.E. should be at least glad that you didn't end up having to give away your lands to the "imperialists" and do not have to cater to all their needs today.

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  • 136. At 10:11pm on 08 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    And some bit of interesting knews:

    Recently in Paris there was an event that was not at all presented in tv reports and neither in the newspapers.

    It was an anti-muslim protest. Actually a huge anti-muslim protest. 16 to 20,000 people on the streets of Paris!!! And nothing on the news. So what was it all about?

    It was about Chinese. Yes, an anti-muslim protest by Chinese immigrants of Paris shouting they cannot cope any more, they cannot tolerate anymore the aggresiveness of the muslims. It is not just about "some muslim thiefs and mafias" that do illegal acts like stealing from their shops. The Chinese openly shouted that they are racially targeted by the muslims as easy targets. Their women are the ones that suffer most being attacked not by thugs but by the next door muslim boys, in the neighbourhood, at school. People cannot cope anymore.

    Now, guess what. I have never seen more quiet and more tolerant people like the Chinese. Just imagine 20,000 of them out in the streets protesting. 20,000 people in an anti-muslim protest. How about that? Who could imagine?

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  • 137. At 10:12pm on 08 Nov 2010, ptsa wrote:

    132. At 9:59pm on 08 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    Thanks Nik, you summed up very well what I wanted to say! It is funny that Muslims do not want to be all lumped together - you know the peaceful ones with the radicals that are responsible for all the terrorist acts NOW, but they do not have a problem lumping all Europeans together, especially for things done HUNDREDS of years ago.

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  • 138. At 10:26pm on 08 Nov 2010, Dietrich wrote:

    # Go4aa1 in all

    That's pure propaganda what you are writing here.

    Multikulti honeyworld to manage to increase YOUR influence.

    Reality is very different from that and this is going to be seen very clearly.

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  • 139. At 10:29pm on 08 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #126. At 8:59pm on 08 Nov 2010, threnodio_II

    There are a lot of things about Brixton that have never been said, you mentioned "They wanted to be as British as their white opposite numbers but encountered racism and prejudice,", the first generation Afro-Caribbeans were so integrated that nobody ever saw their colour, then the loony left started talking about prejudice and it all flared up from both sides. Now its gone back to how it was in the 50's, and when I go back I talk to many of all the races that live there these days.

    #127. At 9:10pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1

    Colonisation means amongst other things, not accepting the laws and culture but replacing it with laws that the coloniser considers superior. There are no religions other than Islam that wish to replace the laws of a society with their own (Sharia), there are no other religions in the UK that consider Christian emblems etc offensive. There are also no other religions that preach that non-believers (or women) are sub-human. I know full well that most Muslims do not support those views but they are perpetually silent, when do any of the Muslim councils in the EU use their influence against the fanatic fundamentalists, they don't, that is why Islam is becoming considered as another dangerous cult.

    "Religious Fundamentalism does not mean Muslim, this can occur in any religion"

    Quite so, there are extremes in all religions, but they are not declaring Jihad against another faith, now are they?

    "My point is you are focused upon blaming one religious group, you need to look at the underlyıng dynamics of the violence, if that exists and rather than blame, find a solution."

    Yes it does exist as you know all too well, as to a solution, no fanaticism has ever been diminished by appeasement, anywhere, which is why positive PC discrimination has always made things much worse. Whatever the solution is, positive discrimination, guaranteed quota's in jobs etc are not the solution.

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  • 140. At 10:31pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    Nik,

    I see that you wish to start a historical debate.. that is not my subject area at present here.

    In regards to 'The age of Empires' in regards to slaughterings in Constantinople (Istanbul today) every empire has done such acts, it was the way things were back then. I don't see what this has to do with the topic at hand.

    In regards to Cyprus, please change the record, the Brits and then the Turkish Cypriots retaliated to Greece's EOKA attempt the whole world knows this, what happened afterward is just politics about a strategically placed island.

    By the way the Ottoman empire was Multi Ethnic, there were non Muslims and converts, including many Greeks, who took part in the massacres.


    However, I get so bored that whenever I speak to a person of Greek ethnicity, they always have to bring up the Ottoman empire.. goodness sake get over it and focus on the subject at hand.

    In future, I wish to comment only in regards to the topic at hand, Integration of Muslims in their respective adopted lands.

    If you wish to discuss Greece, please do so, you can start by telling us how well you treat the immigrants that come into your country, perhaps we will find why, certain groups do rebel against their adopted nations.

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  • 141. At 10:35pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    at 133 I guess you are the only person actually dealing with the topic at hand.

    Seems Nik is on an anti Turk or Ottoman mission

    at 138: which part is propaganda?

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  • 142. At 10:45pm on 08 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Threnodio

    My #134 answer to your #108 is apparently under a prison sentence or sent to Siberia.

    Could be for treason ?????

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  • 143. At 10:47pm on 08 Nov 2010, jonathan S wrote:

    -when in rome- do as the romans-if not leave. but, that would not enable them to collect social advantages/jobs that they would never have in "their" full on muslim countrys.no social security,benefits for reproducing.and the western way of life which pays them money if they work.i took a flight on a muslim airline recently.no alcohol allowed-and thats just with a muslim airline- yet in our countrys they are allowed to build mosques left right and center, and we have to respect "their"religion in OUR COUNTRYS.the muslims have no desire to integrate , or be a active part of "our" culture, as theirs is perceived by them to be superior.yet we must accept them and be tolerant of them.our western culture is good for them- when IT SUITS THEM. wake up time!!!

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  • 144. At 10:55pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    First of all, It is not stated in the Kuran that shariah law should be implemented, do you even know what shariah law is? The keyword being LAW. There is no such thing.
    Shariah means the correct path, the correct path must be decided by each individual Muslim according to what they understand from the Kuran.

    Many Ulema's and Muslim scholars use the 'shariah law' to manipulate the ignorant masses, thus religion becomes blamed for the violence. In addition according to which country you go to 'shariah' means totally different things.

    Therefore the issues is not the actual immigrant masses, it is who is educating them.


    I have never heard any Muslim person say they wish to change the law to a sharia law in the UK, apart from a few loony tunes on tv, have you? If so, then I can understand your concern.

    As a Turk, I prefer secularism, and respect to all faiths, I doubt that the shariah law idea (whatever that is) will ever get anywhere. In fact that is what I hope.

    The Muslims who treat women as sub human as you state, are in fact conflicting with Islam which determines equal rights for men and women. In fact it states in the Kuran that if a women is not satisfied sexually by her husband she can straight up divorce him. It also bans cruelty against animals and slaves.

    Nobody apart from a few crazies you see on the internet are declaring Jihad, which means to fight (when attacked) in the name of God. What these crazies are doing is something different.

    Perhaps positive discrimination isn't working, perhaps being a bit more selective in regards to which immigrants are taken in, and which are dangerous would be a nice way to start. Abu Hamza anyone?

    You see, ı speak up against all these extremists, so do many others, but we are not of interest to the media.
    To give you an example of what the media is doing: Go the Ku klux Klan ask them about religion then show it on the 10 o clock news and say this is Christianity. Do you get my point?

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  • 145. At 11:05pm on 08 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    c´mon Mods discussing the necessity for separation of Church and State in BRITAIN is hardly grounds for censorship !!!!

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0109/1224261978083.html

    Threnodio, here is one example of what you requested.

    My first draught was accidentally deleted and the second Mod digested !

    Sorry

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  • 146. At 11:05pm on 08 Nov 2010, ptsa wrote:

    140. At 10:31pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    If you wish to discuss Greece, please do so, you can start by telling us how well you treat the immigrants that come into your country, perhaps we will find why, certain groups do rebel against their adopted nations.

    ---

    I sure will. Lets see, since the two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan erupted, we have been getting in an enormous flow of ILLEGAL immigrants since their country of passage (Turkey) is doing nothing to stop them, has refused to accept them according to existing treaties and sometimes even helps their passage. In addition, the EU only recently started taking part in the protection of the eastern border.

    In addition to all that, all EU countries that arrest illegals send them to the first EU country that they entered, which 90% of the time is Greece (you see, we still haven't started sinking their ships in mid-sea like the Italians, maybe we should??).

    So you have a small country like Greece (and broke at the moment) overwhelmed by recent ILLEGAL immigration. Greece was never a target country for ILLEGAL immigration so the facilities that exist cannot handle all the influx and yes they are cramped and overcrowded. We started by not paying attention and now many parts of Athens's historical centre are filled with Afghans, Pakistanis, Iraqis and various other ethnicities that cannot get a job (don't speak the language, are not educated) and are squatting in disgusting conditions, sometimes a threat to public health. Yes, it is true, Greece, a country of 10,000,000 cannot sustain 20,000 new illegal immigrants per month and 20,000 asylum applications a month. I agree, they shouldn't be held in such appaling conditions, my plan: put them all on boats and send them where they came from (Turkey) and let them deal with it! Do we have a deal :)))

    As for LEGAL immigrants, I do not see a problem with Greece. We have assimilated almost if not more that 1M Albanians, they get their kids educated here, they have jobs where they make money to send home etc. etc.

    Anything else?

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  • 147. At 11:05pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    I also want to state, I am not here to preach, I do want to correct misinformation about Islam, in my opinion there are other things wrong with it, but the things you stated are in the most basic a REFLECTION of CULTURE not religion.
    Education is a huge need. I have in the past been on the receiving end of serious verbal abuse by 'so called Muslims' but I could back up every argument, could state where in the Koran it came from and why their strangely backwards views were not acceptable.
    They can only try to recruit the ignorant and uneducated people to follow their extremist views, not educated Muslims.

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  • 148. At 11:15pm on 08 Nov 2010, ptsa wrote:

    144. At 10:55pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:
    First of all, It is not stated in the Kuran that shariah law should be implemented, do you even know what shariah law is? The keyword being LAW. There is no such thing.
    Shariah means the correct path, the correct path must be decided by each individual Muslim according to what they understand from the Kuran.

    --Someone should tell S.Arabia that! They have been exporting ther Wahhabism for years now in Europe. And to think it is where the holly place of all Muslims is... it is like the Vatican advocating death to Muslims, it is not just 'a scholar', it is usually a big scholar that has great influence over many Muslim believers.


    I have never heard any Muslim person say they wish to change the law to a sharia law in the UK, apart from a few loony tunes on tv, have you? If so, then I can understand your concern.
    --I have heard it too in England, and from a Muslim friend of mine who was born and grew up there. I was surprised to find out that elements of Sharia law are also practiced in Greece as well by the Muslim minority (something that the EU opposes, go figure...)

    As a Turk, I prefer secularism, and respect to all faiths, I doubt that the shariah law idea (whatever that is) will ever get anywhere. In fact that is what I hope.
    --That is good to hear. But, in places in W.Europe with high Muslim concentration it is the talk of the day, every day!

    Nobody apart from a few crazies you see on the internet are declaring Jihad, which means to fight (when attacked) in the name of God. What these crazies are doing is something different.
    --Even if its just a few crazies, the damage they can and do cause is significant.

    Perhaps positive discrimination isn't working, perhaps being a bit more selective in regards to which immigrants are taken in, and which are dangerous would be a nice way to start.
    --Amen! So you do understand that, despite what Amnesty International is saying etc, Greece cannot accept any person that knocks on the door right? Other countries already made that mistake and cannot go back. We have the opportunity to be selective as late candidates for such a wave of immigration and we will take that opportunity!

    You see, ı speak up against all these extremists, so do many others, but we are not of interest to the media.
    To give you an example of what the media is doing: Go the Ku klux Klan ask them about religion then show it on the 10 o clock news and say this is Christianity. Do you get my point?
    --I do get that point, but if KKK planted bombs on planes, trains, buses, nightclubs, hotels, and also killed en masse other Christians (see Muslim vs Muslim terrorist acts in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan), then this point you raised would make so much more sense!


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  • 149. At 11:17pm on 08 Nov 2010, phillipwest wrote:

    144. At 10:55pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1
    I have read your posts and feel if you are at all representative of the Muslim invasion of Europe now underway, the secular societies here have nothing to worry about. Your constant reference to your holy book though is not particularly comforting. This kind of reliance is uncommon for Christians in such discussions and of course impossible for atheists such as me.

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  • 150. At 11:19pm on 08 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #144

    In Germany arranged marriages for Turkish girls (and boys) is common.
    -- often to partners in Turkey.

    And the parents often have the last word !

    Germany wishes to stop the practice.

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  • 151. At 11:19pm on 08 Nov 2010, Stevat wrote:

    Go4aa1, you sound happy with living here, and are happy living to British laws and values - which is great. So long as people are like you willing to adapt to their surroundings a little, and don't impose themselves on others, which should be the same for every ethnicity (like I said earlier, I find Christianity is in a way more intrusive than other faiths), then there would be no problem in my mind with anyone coming here.

    I do have one question though, why on earth did you come here? It's freezing. You could be on a beach on the Black Sea instead of looking out at rain and grey skies.

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  • 152. At 11:19pm on 08 Nov 2010, democracythreat wrote:

    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

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  • 153. At 11:21pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    at 146, well it is your duty as an EU country to provide sanitary conditions for the illegal immigrants.

    As an EU country this is your responsibility and you have failed, should have spent less on 'other things' still as a stable strong EU country and beloved neighbor of Turkey, I am sure you will do just fine.

    Although I don't think you will be very successful at integrating them at the moment.

    Thanks I don't have anything more.

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  • 154. At 11:35pm on 08 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    117 threnodio writes:
    "Jews were readmitted in 1655 and numbered more than 3,000 by the turn of the century. The Jew Bill of 1753 allowed naturalisation on application to Parliament.. . over 500 years on pain of death"? Absolute garbage Margaret"

    Yes you are right, that should have read UNDER 500 years on pain of death. The Edict of Expulsion took place in 1289 and the Jew Bill 1753 of naturalisation , which makes it 464 years. I mixed up the dates with 1218 when England became the first country in Europe to require the Jews to wear a yellow badge (marking badge)on their outer garment. Cromwell allowed a few back to finance his murderous wars against the Irish but they were not allowed to own any land until an Act of Parliament in 1723 and it was in fact only in 1858 that they received formal emancipation. I hope that's sorted out the garbage for you.

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  • 155. At 11:35pm on 08 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #151 Stevat

    Try finding a church in Turkey to worship in !

    -- And ask the Alevi (Shia) how they are treated. (20%) !

    ---all that shines is not gold !


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  • 156. At 11:39pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    at 148: Wahhabism is not a branch of Islam, it is a cult, reflecting Saudi Arabian culture under the pretense of Islam.
    Saudi's are not the leaders of Islam as you seem to think, nothing like the Vatican at all. I found that very ignorant again...sigh

    So you mean like the crazy guy nail bomber, what religion was he? let's label all members of that religion as crazy terrorist..

    at 149 believe me I don't actually enjoy talking about 'my holy book' but I do feel that if something untrue is stated it should be corrected. I am only replying to certain accusations and beliefs which simply aren't true.

    at 150 Arranged marriages are illegal in Turkey, how comes they are allowed in Germany?
    Germany must immediatly put a stop to this, its sick that many people still 'sell' their daughters.

    By the way I hate to state this, not all but, most of the Turks who went to Germany, were in fact from secluded villages, mainly in the south east, they took with them a very different culture and maintained it. They do not represent all Turks.

    at 151 Well I come and go between Turkey and England, a love hate thing with both..but it always rains on the black sea... the south is where the sun's at. I do spend more time in Turkey nowadays, just due to the need for sun and warmth! Although nothing and nowhere can ever take the place of London for me. The best city in the world!!

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  • 157. At 11:40pm on 08 Nov 2010, ptsa wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 158. At 11:41pm on 08 Nov 2010, Dietrich wrote:

    # 141.

    What does that mean: which part?

    You are talking about multikulti anytime and there are crowds of muslims who are nothing less than multikulti, they are monokulti like their countries of origin, too.

    And in an aggressive way they urge rights their culture didn't achieved, neither in the past nor today. They urge rights in order to remain in a medieval status, where those rights didn't exist at all and looking "down" on the rotten Western World, which in fact has to deal with the challenges of modernity.

    The whole matter reminds me on the Nazis who went to the elections of a democracy, feeling superior to the "weak" parliamentary system, and when elected, turned the country into a dictatorship at once.

    Since that time we do have a "defending democracy" which fights back against any attempt of overwhelming it. You can be shure.

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  • 159. At 11:42pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    Oh and I 'didn't come' I was born in England. A twist of fate perhaps. I have family that's been living in England for over 50/60 years :)

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  • 160. At 11:43pm on 08 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #145 - quietoaktree

    For once, I don't disagree.

    I just cannot for the life of me how you make the journey from me not being Christian to me as a card carrying, flag waving raving British nationalist. I am definitely neither of the above. Got it?

    I still don't know what I am supposed to apologise for or to whom but that is academic because I don't feel the need to apologise to anyone.

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  • 161. At 11:45pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    155 would you like the address of the Churches you can openly worship in, there's one nearby where I live.

    The Alevi? how are they treated?

    The subject is not about Turkey anyway.

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  • 162. At 11:48pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    at 158, I guess you missed my point... never mind.

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  • 163. At 11:49pm on 08 Nov 2010, ptsa wrote:

    156. At 11:39pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:
    at 148: Wahhabism is not a branch of Islam, it is a cult, reflecting Saudi Arabian culture under the pretense of Islam.
    Saudi's are not the leaders of Islam as you seem to think, nothing like the Vatican at all. I found that very ignorant again...sigh
    -- They seem to have a huge effect on Muslims that end up being radical! And please, although I haven't studied Islam, I know that Mecca is the holly place for ALL Muslims, so even if S.Arabia is not like the Vatican, it is still a place where all Muslims would want to go at some point in their lives.

    So you mean like the crazy guy nail bomber, what religion was he? let's label all members of that religion as crazy terrorist..
    --I dunno, did he do it in the name of God, Jesus Christ or the Virgin Mary?



    155. At 11:35pm on 08 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
    #151 Stevat

    Try finding a church in Turkey to worship in !

    -- And ask the Alevi (Shia) how they are treated. (20%) !

    ---all that shines is not gold !

    -----

    I am not so sure about that. I have a lot of Turkish friends here, two or three of them are Orthodox Christians that go to church, I am sure there is a church somewhere for them!


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  • 164. At 11:51pm on 08 Nov 2010, markogo wrote:

    I think that any argument claiming that German discrimination against foreigners is to blame for lack of integration of Muslim immigrants is simply not true: as an immigrant from the Balkans to Germany I have never experienced a single incident of discrimination or felt in any way unwelcome here. I know a lot of other foreigners living here and none of them have ever had any problems. I do however notice that a lot of Turkish people living here, even young ones, have problems speaking German. They are often closed toward outsiders and usually associate only with each other in ethnically based clubs and bars. They also tend to form ghetto-like communities in certain parts of the city. It takes two to tango: yes, maybe the German society should work harder on helping these people to integrate, but some goodwill and respect for the German culture on the part of the immigrants wouldn't hurt.

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  • 165. At 11:56pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    at 163 Most Muslims that I have come across detest the Saudi's they have turned religion into a money making enterprise, the hotels and prices of everything are so high. As for Mecca, no, not all Muslims want to go there, it isn't a must for a Muslim. Some people do, it's choice, but I'm pretty sure they don't become Wahhabi when they go, the wahhabi's are the laughing stock and most disliked group of Muslims, ı don't even consider them Muslim, but anyway.

    Yes you are right there are Catholic and Orthodox Churches in Turkey, open to worship.

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  • 166. At 11:59pm on 08 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    116 Stevat writes:
    "Mags, you not a fan of the English?"

    No Stevie, I was just clearing up pandatank's misperception when he wrote: "Give(n) that tolerance is a central tenet of English society dating back to Elizabeth 1".
    However I'm glad you feel you have become more tolerant now. It would be even better if all those English people who settle in countries like Spain and France would make an effort to learn the language and stop trying to live together in cliques forming their own clubs, schools and even churches. This causes a lot of resentment towards them and is one of the reasons they are generally so unpopular abroad. Maybe that is the problem when Muslims prefer to live among their own kind and refuse to integrate.

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  • 167. At 00:02am on 09 Nov 2010, ptsa wrote:

    My post got deleted (I wish that Moderators would actually say why and save me from guessing what "bad" thing I wrote)

    153. At 11:21pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:
    at 146, well it is your duty as an EU country to provide sanitary conditions for the illegal immigrants.

    As an EU country this is your responsibility and you have failed, should have spent less on 'other things' still as a stable strong EU country and beloved neighbor of Turkey, I am sure you will do just fine.

    Although I don't think you will be very successful at integrating them at the moment.

    Thanks I don't have anything more.


    1) As an EU country, no, we do not have the duty to provide sanctuary to the 20,000+ per month that enter our borders. What if they become 40,000+, should we start building whole hotels for it?

    2) We currently have financial problems and are already spending millions on new facilities and improvements on all facilities. If the EU wants more, they can chip in, which they have already started doing, albeit late. They can also scrap the silly agreement that says illegal immigrants should be deported to their point of entry (Greece). How about the novel idea of deporting them back to where they came from, like all other countries do?

    3) We can spend less money on "other things", I am with you on that. But the savings should be spent on things that are for the good of the Greek people, like education, getting the economy on track, healthcare etc. We have other priorities now, if we take care of all our basic needs then we will start building hotels at the borders for the thousands of asylum seekers (most of which will never get an asylum in such a small country, its math!)

    4) We probably won't integrate them all. It is normal. A country cannot integrate all the illegal immigrants that knock on the door, if there is no need for their skills etc, they will be sent home. This is part of what is called "sovereignty", a country can decide WHO and HOW MANY she will accept in her borders. There is no law that says you have to accept everybody.

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  • 168. At 00:03am on 09 Nov 2010, Stevat wrote:

    #156, I would follow the sun too. Some people seem to have very strong opinions on this matter. The crux of this issue isn't the actual religions themselves, but the sweeping generalisations that are applied to people based on one aspect of their lives. That is not a good way to judge anybody. I'm from the north of England and can safely say that I don't fit any of the typical Geordie stereotypes the media perpetuates (and neither does anyone I know) - that doesn't stop me having to endure some rather awkwardly attempted banter on the part of some of the people I work with in London. That is largely irrelevant in this conversation but it illustrates a point - that people seem too willing to accept a stereotype and prejudgement without any form of personal investment, it's just easier for them. This is more than a tad lazy and quite frankly the cause of these arguments.

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  • 169. At 00:13am on 09 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #160 Threnodio

    It is very difficult for Brits generally to understand the EU´s implication when it is other than money transfers. My `simpletons´was used with this in mind.

    My #134 attempted to put Merkel´s remarks into perspective using her past and comparing the British Church- State symbiosis.

    I still consider you harshness as unfair considering the Multikulti failure.

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  • 170. At 00:14am on 09 Nov 2010, Gheryando wrote:

    "65. At 10:32am on 08 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
    Re #40 OneWhoQuestions...

    "The real problem is that European and UK society and government have been lamentably weak and spineless in defending their own core values"




    And it's true even more for Continentals than UK."

    absolutely not. The UK is the posterboy of PC and giving up its own values and culture, just look at the fact that banks cant give out piggy banks because the pig is dirty and councils cant use public money to celebrate christmas because...oh well..whatever..

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  • 171. At 00:19am on 09 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    141. At 10:35pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    """Seems Nik is on an anti Turk or Ottoman mission"""

    o o o basta Go4aa1 you took too much momentum but you are not dealing with the ignorant here.

    1st: stop lying and distorting. I did not make reference to the extreme backwards Ottoman Empire. I spoke about modern Turkey of the 20th century, i.e. your parents and your grandparents, no more older than that!!!!!!!

    2nd: the question is that 80-90 years ago, the 45% of Minor Asia (and that does not include even Eastern Thrace) population was all about Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians and other groups of christians. In a span of successive genocides and later pogroms to clear the remaining Greek population of Constantinople you cleared the 100% of the non-christian population of the country. Then you went to do the same thing when you occupied north Cyprus (and do not hide behind the British who commenced their division and conquer game cos it won't aid you, I need not mention to the paramilitary turks serving the British stirring the trouble to force Greeks and the slaughters of 1930s-40s that provoked the EOKA1 liberation struggle which was against the British, not the back then 4% marginal muslim population half of what was actually much more pro-Greek than pro-Turkish something sometimes seen even today despite all the trouble and pain caused...but again that is not our isssue - the issue is that you slaughtered and ethnically cleared). And you did so on every single occasion. Not your Ottoman barbaric forefathers, you, your parents, your grandparents. Not just your army, but you, all of you as a society.

    All these are well written in every single text you can find and admitted even by your own writers to the extend that your state permits of course since martial court is never that far nor is the knife of someone in the streets.

    1) So coming from one of the least tolerant countries and cultures in the world, the question arises - how on earth do you have a face to even raise a single question concerning some of the most tolerant cultures on earth like the German or the British?

    2) What is it exactly that you want? Tell us?

    3) And why is it that the thing you demand from the Germans and the British has to be radically different from what you think of your own mother country?

    Stop evading.
    Stop lying.
    Stop distorting.

    Start answering these 3 questions.

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  • 172. At 00:27am on 09 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    at 168 Stevat this comment board needs more posters like you, stereotyping people and labeling them is definitely the source for most conflicts, whether it be Muslim or Christian.

    Londoners do enjoy to 'have a banter' with our Northern lovelies, although Byker Grove could be to blame... again the media.

    at 167 Many Greeks are immigrants around the world, I would hope they received better treatment than what is on offer in Greece, but circumstances considered, there is not much to do about it. I guess the part where each nation chooses who can stay, well that's what Turkey is doing, I don't believe EU members have that luxury, although I'm not 100% sure.

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  • 173. At 00:27am on 09 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    #107 Buzet23

    --✄-- Your words were as ever difficult to understand except for maybe Nik who could possibly translate Greek Hieroglyphics into understandable language, and as you know I do understand computer languages very well. However, back to the point. --✄--

    ...the above are Greek Hieroglyphics since have nothing to do with computer languages you well understand but with an ordinary, first order, differential equation formulation.

    It's the third time you try to convince me that you actually understand computer languages very well. Who knows why...and of course as always deficient

    BTW if you think you can handle Mathematics like you do with your computer languages you can find quite everything here: Population Dynamics and Equilibrium...

    ...If not take for granted his computer results (created them with Stella II software: an object-oriented programming environment) that:

    if everything will remain with those rate numbers and without even consider to his formula any newcomers...by year 2045, we can expect the Islamic population in Greece to match our Hellenic population...

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  • 174. At 00:28am on 09 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #163ptsa

    I know Turkey and North Cyprus very well --so please ---no bull or condescension when replying !

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  • 175. At 00:41am on 09 Nov 2010, david0202 wrote:

    Myself being half german half english I believe that this argument of muslims not integrating is wrongly aimed at germany specificly. I recall there being a pleadge to female muslim students to stop wearing turbans for their GCSE examinations, attempt which was smoothly rejected and not really picked up on in much more detail but in truth muslim citizens should have to adapt to the laws and conditions of their new home and if failing to do so, how can they call it theyre home not residing in it. I lived in Germany for 6 years in london for 4 and spain for another 13 and can assure you that in every one country I have visited or lived in I behaved and adapted the way that country kindly asked me to and so I believe that muslim society should adapt to their sourroundings and not create their own little world against all odds. The article is extremely truthfull and states the reality in germany but as a matter of a fact it hints at a "far right" approach wich is not so factual but just what every single nation in europe is thinking right now about every single immigrant american spanish or muslim completely irrelevant if you are not in youre country of birth you better make the effort to adapt yourself and it is never easy trust me but with the millions that succeded as Turkish germans you must be having a laugh if you think its impossible (Mesut Ozil the most loved german turkish success story is just an example, if you give youre part the country receiving you will welcome you whoever you may be.

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  • 176. At 00:54am on 09 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    172. At 00:27am on 09 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    """at 167 Many Greeks are immigrants around the world,"""

    Many Greeks are immigrants around the world. We yet have to hear a bad word about them. We yet have to hear them say a bad word about their host country.

    172. At 00:27am on 09 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:
    at 168 Stevat this comment board needs more posters like you, stereotyping people and labeling them is definitely the source for most conflicts, whether it be Muslim or Christian.

    """I guess the part where each nation chooses who can stay, well that's what Turkey is doing, I don't believe EU members have that luxury, although I'm not 100% sure."""

    I give you the real deal:

    We treat you like you treat others, and you treat us like we treat others.

    Deal dear?

    If not, then go do some retrospection.

    But first answer right now the 3 above questions I posed you.

    I repeat:

    1)Coming from one of the least tolerant countries and cultures in the world how on earth do you have a face to even raise a single question concerning some of the most tolerant cultures on earth like the German or the British when no other community has done that there?

    2) What is it exactly that you want from the likes of Germans?

    3) Why is it that the thing you demand from the Germans has to be radically different from what you want for your own mother country?

    Stop evading.
    Stop lying.
    Stop distorting.

    Answer now or go elsewhere do your monologue thingie. This place is for questioning and answering, i.e. for dialogue. Do it. Not now. NOW!

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  • 177. At 01:02am on 09 Nov 2010, ptsa wrote:

    172.

    at 167 Many Greeks are immigrants around the world, I would hope they received better treatment than what is on offer in Greece, but circumstances considered, there is not much to do about it.
    ----
    Yep, many Greeks are around the world and went there as immigrants. What you have failed so far to distinguish is LEGAL vs ILLEGAL immigrant. There are set rules for people that want to immigrate to another country, if you try to sneak in the border without having gone through the proper channels then you are sent back. I actually moved for a little time in the US recently, already had gotten a job, got a visa, and then moved. Guess what would have happened if I showed up without proper paperwork, I would have been sent back the next day, they wouldn't even give me shelter and food for more than that!

    You keep comparing different things. Greeks probably got better treatment because they went there legally, they got a place to live and had a visa/green card from the government. That is totally different from crossing the border at night and being arrested for commiting a crime, isn't it?

    As I said again, Greece has already accepted a fair share of immigration who came here legally, got jobs and a place to live and were never held in cells. Do it the proper way and no problems will occur.

    I guess the part where each nation chooses who can stay, well that's what Turkey is doing, I don't believe EU members have that luxury, although I'm not 100% sure.
    ----
    Sure we do, all countries are against illegal immigration. Moving from one EU country to another is fine but accepting all of a sudden a huge influx of thousands of ILLEGAL immigrants that have nothing to offer to the host's economy is not OK. We also have tens of NGOs screaming at us for not providing them proper shelter, not only are we not allowed to send ILLEGAL immigrants back to where they came from but we also have to build their accomodations and shelter them for months (even years) while their case is reviewed or we try to find where they came from (because they never disclose that).

    Turkey is doing the right thing as you say, controlling who comes in, what they should do is send illegals back to where they came from and not let them move on to Greece and then refuse to take them back. Problem solved!

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  • 178. At 01:08am on 09 Nov 2010, ptsa wrote:

    174. At 00:28am on 09 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
    #163ptsa

    I know Turkey and North Cyprus very well --so please ---no bull or condescension when replying !

    -----

    I know Turkey and N. Cyprus too, I am half Greek half Armenian and half my family "relocated" from Anatolia during the 1920s so do me a favour and drop the attitude. Wanna see bull and condescension, check your reply which I quoted, ignorant and false....

    I am just stating that what you said is false. There are churches in Turkey that are operational because there are Christians there, even if they represent a tiny fraction of the number of Christians that used to live and thrive there.

    I will be waiting for you to show me what part of my reply was condescending. Please do...

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  • 179. At 01:35am on 09 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #178 ptsa

    You are only SURE !

    I am certain --please do not waste my time.

    I have been visiting Turkey since 1976 (?) --- and not because I dislike it. Which it appears you assumed.

    --as I said --no bull or condescension --Please.

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  • 180. At 03:03am on 09 Nov 2010, ptsa wrote:

    #178 ptsa

    You are only SURE !

    I am certain --please do not waste my time.

    I have been visiting Turkey since 1976 (?) --- and not because I dislike it. Which it appears you assumed.

    --as I said --no bull or condescension --Please.

    Again, I am only pointing out that there are churches operational in Turkey. There is a Christian minority that actually go to Church, I know personally some of its members.

    You still haven't shown me where I was condescending. I am still waiting. In addition, I now expect you to show me where I said (or assumed) that you dislike Turkey. I am waiting, if you are not willing to show me where I said those things then stop replying to my posts or commenting on them, you are wasting my time.

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  • 181. At 03:05am on 09 Nov 2010, ptsa wrote:

    #178 ptsa

    You are only SURE !

    I am certain --

    ---Oh and by the way, the words "sure" and "certain" mean the same thing in the English language, if you are unfamiliar with it and all this is because you do not understand what I am writing then please end this here, you are wasting my time.

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  • 182. At 03:13am on 09 Nov 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:


    158. At 11:41pm on 08 Nov 2010, Dietrich wrote:

    " ...
    The whole matter reminds me on the Nazis who went to the elections of a democracy, feeling superior to the "weak" parliamentary system, and when elected, turned the country into a dictatorship at once. ..."

    EUpris: You are talking about Muslims. But it certainly applies to arrogant, anti-democratic, at-least-semi-fascist "EU"-lovers who have slimed their way past the safeguards and imposed their Grade A Filth, Post Lisbon Dictatorship on us.

    'Since that time we do have a "defending democracy" which fights back against any attempt of overwhelming it. You can be shure.'

    EUpris: It has not yet fought back significantly against the "EU"-Dictatorship.

    Neither the Brits nor the Germans resisted the Third Reich or the "EU"-Fourth Reich enough.

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  • 183. At 03:17am on 09 Nov 2010, Adelaide_girl wrote:

    This former German would like to contribute:
    The West-German guest worker program was discontinued in 1974/75 when the (government) recruitment offices in Belgrade, Turkey, Morocco, Spain etc were closed. Arrivals during the last 35 years were asylum seekers.
    We have that same debate here in Australia. One person said on TV that one would expect people left the ideas behind which caused them to flee in the first place - it was an Aboriginal who said it. It would have been verboten for a white person to say something like that.
    People often talk about equality under the law but fail to acknowledge that the definition of law is 'debated and voted on', not written several centuries ago and unadaptable to changed circumstances. Well, one thing is for sure, only those societies are successful who do not shut out and shut in their women. That condems certain societies to being unsuccessful, I guess, and they then complain they are discriminated against.
    With the Jewish gene Sarrazin probably means the Cohanim gene which (last time I read) does seem to exist, although not in all Jews.

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  • 184. At 03:44am on 09 Nov 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/hardtalk/9160990.stm

    The imposition of the Lisbon Treaty has shown that representative democracy isn't working so:

    GIVE US A REFERENDUM ON TURKISH MEMBERSHIP OF THE "EU" !!!

    You know what the result will be so then you can cut out the negotiations about "EU" membership and go on to a more sensible agenda: NATO Yes! Freeish trade Yes! Free trade in humans NO!



    yOU KNOWWHAT THE RESULT WILL BESO THEN YOU CAN CUT OUT THE STUPID NEGOTUIATIONSWITH tURKEY AND GO ON TO A MORE SENSIBLE AGENDA: nato yES! fREEIS TRADE IN GOODS yES! fREE TRADE IN PEOPLE no!

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  • 185. At 04:08am on 09 Nov 2010, ptsa wrote:

    #178 ptsa

    You are only SURE !

    I am certain --

    Start by checking the following operational churches in Istanbul
    -Ayia Triada (Greek Orthodox)
    -St. Anthony of Padua Cathedral (Catholic)
    ..and the list is longer, can't be bothered to waste more time on that.

    Have been going to Turkey since the 70s eh? Maybe you were always on the wrong tour? Good to know you are CERTAIN though.

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  • 186. At 05:28am on 09 Nov 2010, Mathiasen wrote:

    #150. At 11:19pm on 08 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Concerning arranged marriages for Turkish girls (and boys) is common, you wrote:
    Germany wishes to stop the practice.

    I hope they take a good look at Denmark before they start the legislation. If a Dane falls in love with a citizen coming from the world outside the EU area and the Nordic area, for instance from North America, s/he will have great difficulties in getting the person into Denmark, because the law on the basis of geography the settlement of such a person.

    However, for some years such a Dane would also have to make a bank guarantee of 7.000 Euro. Yesterday it was raised to 15.000 Euro. That is not only an economic parameter. It is also a social, meaning that only well-to-do can pass the hurdle.

    The right-wing populist party behind this, usually hostile to the elite, now makes a show of Denmark as the country where foreigners have the greatest difficulties in getting in.
    Fortunately, Bundestag is very unlikely to follow this horrible example.

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  • 187. At 05:38am on 09 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    " Lady Gaga has scooped three prizes at the MTV European Music Awards in Madrid, winning best female, best pop act and best song for Bad Romance."



    You mean Europe couldn't come up with something better of their own? (:

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  • 188. At 05:57am on 09 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    #67 - powermeerkat

    "It took U.S. to finally stop Bosnian Muslims' slaughter which impotent EU allowed in heart of EUROPE was unable/unwilling to prevent."

    You really should check your facts. UNPROFOR was mandated in 1992, three years before Srebrenica. At that point, EU involvement as an organisation ended.




    WHY?!

    And whose responsibility it was supposed to be to prevent a fratricidal ethnic slaughter in the heart of Europe if not EU's?

    America's?


    And who's going to prevent a similar conflict in Europe next time?

    [No, we won't come over there again, 'until its over over there']

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  • 189. At 06:13am on 09 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "What is wanted by certain and in my view simple people is: Muslims should eat pork, take off their headscarves and get drunk, then they will fully be integrated.
    Other wise whats all this fuss?"




    I know quite a few Muslims who get drunk silly on Scotch, bourbon or vodka clamining that Quran only prohibits drinking wine.


    And you know very well, demaggoy aside, that headscarves (btw, prohibited in Turkey's public institutions unless you happen to be a wife of its current president) are not an issue either.

    The problem is those Muslims who refuse to learn local language, accept local customs and identify with countries they are allegedly citizens of.

    [like, e.g. in France]


    P.S. As you've noticed I refrained from even mentioning Muslim fanatics bound of converting Judeo-Christian European civilization into a Sharia-based Dark Age caliphate.


    Let alone wanton destruction od such countries' infrastructure.

    [like burning schools and libraries in France not so long ago]


    I hope you'll appreciate that.

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  • 190. At 06:28am on 09 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    mh wrote: "This causes a lot of resentment towards them [the English] and is one of the reasons they are generally so unpopular abroad. Maybe that is the problem when Muslims prefer to live among their own kind and refuse to integrate."






    If that had been the case, those Muslims would not lived in an and still attempted to emigrate to England in the first place, would they now?



    Preferring instead to "live among their own kind" in Egypt, Emirates, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan or Yemen.

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  • 191. At 07:51am on 09 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    As a different type person, myself, I prefer cosmopolitan scenes, ie city colleges over suburban colleges...but many caucasian's do not...leading to People referring to

    "ethnic" but its been years since I went to School. And also, the new generation in America is dealing with diversity well, if not better than any nation ...but we are a new nation, much like Brazil and much like Brazil we are up for change.

    If its an improvement for society. Though you will never see Sharia Law, more likely we'll see Spanish become the world's second language after Chinese. I'm glad to be my age .....

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  • 192. At 07:56am on 09 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Don't worry, Mr. PowerMeerKat,

    I'm an ex-Baptist and as a preacher's son I'm unusually "bad." So most of my jokes are naughty..so it's hard to put them here...
    ****************************************************************
    Let's see, have you heard of the "Blonde who was seen sitting on her roof?

    When someone asked her why,

    She said, "Someone said drinks were on-the-house.""
    *****************************************************************
    If this doesn't get posted well, we are a few millimeters away from being in thought police city

    :)))

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  • 193. At 08:13am on 09 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    I'm for integration, but our main new immigrants are very Western Hemisphere,

    there is not much conflict, except less power for the "white straight male," unless he is confident about his own "gifts" or talents.

    Also, don't ban the headscarf, its basically the only difference between Muslim women and ours, though,

    I do think they are less inclined to use lots of make up or hairspray (no big hair, good for them)

    They do try to blend in... and at Citibank and at Drugstores, they (at least the men) do end up being very promotable

    and in America,

    "It's all about climbing the ladder" -- behavior at work, basic overworking and researching details and having the correct answers to difficult questions*

    Sadly, for me, because

    I was a slacker back when it wasn't even cool. Can one get the Alpha gene injected into one???


    ***But, people are very upset about our porous southern borders...dontcha know? ...seems to be a serious concern as money as being thrown at that problem.

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  • 194. At 08:19am on 09 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    As a former student of Economics, how about taxation relief for large "European" families?"....

    it seems that big families for modern people are largely ...becoming extinct.

    Maybe, raise taxes on new immigrants, or give tax relief to the middle class whom are subsidising these new immigrants lives,

    in their living apart from society in "paradise lost."

    Or Tax relief to those whom integrate and help integrate other immigrants :))) (a "Peace Corps" at home)

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  • 195. At 08:27am on 09 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Here is one, PMK,

    A redheaded woman went in to the Doctors office to explain her affliction.

    She said, "Everywhere I touch my body it hurts."

    He said touch your stomach. She did and screamed. "See?"

    He said touch your neck. She did that and screamed. "See?"

    He said touch your hand. She did that and screamed... Again. "See?"

    The doctor looked at her and said "Is that your real hair color or are you really a Blonde?"

    Sobbing the Redhead said, "Yes, my real hair color is blonde, how did you know?"

    Replied the doctor, "Well, ummmm...your finger is broken."

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  • 196. At 08:28am on 09 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #173. At 00:27am on 09 Nov 2010, Ellinas

    You were being typically obtuse, you give the result (sort of), a few workings in Greek hieroglyphics (or whatever) and then expect everybody to know what the question was, if that's your idea of mathematics and computer science then heaven help anybody you work for, as you would be a nightmare to follow when maintenance comes up.

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  • 197. At 08:46am on 09 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Aaaah, German ostalgia for good old days.



    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11715906

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  • 198. At 08:53am on 09 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    For a number of the posters here.

    With regarding returning immigrants to their point of entry, whilst there may be countries that do that, most just allow them to pass through, look at the wonderful French who tolerated a camp in Calais that they could use whilst attempting to sneak onto lorries. Plus once in the UK I've yet to hear of any being returned to where they entered the EU (likewise Belgium), here in Belgium they seem to get hotel accommodation costing a fortune from what I've heard in the media.

    The one point that has not been made on this thread is that the reasons given by EU member states for their humane treatment of immigrants (obligation) is firstly that all have signed up to the UN convention on human rights. This then got translated into the European fundamental rights and the individual human rights legislation of each member state. If we wish to put the blame for the current mess with economic migrants then we should start at the top (the UN) and work downwards to stop the rot that HR legislation has created. There is an obvious lacking in HR laws as they bestow rights without responsibilities, the two are intertwined and those that fail to respect others rights should forfeit theirs. As for the concept of political asylum rather than economic migrant, the time has come to equate both as the same and forget rather coy notions that political refugees are always innocent victims.

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  • 199. At 09:09am on 09 Nov 2010, Benefactor wrote:

    Does anyone else not have any problems with the Muslim immigrants? They seem fine to me, sure some of the young ones can be a-holes. But then again, so can white teenagers.

    As for "The Muslim takeover of Europe", well, you can find the figures and do the math yourself.

    It. isn't. going. to. happen!

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  • 200. At 10:06am on 09 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Threnodio

    #134 has been spared the death sentence !

    Why was it put on trial, can you see any reason ?

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  • 201. At 10:35am on 09 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Plus once in the UK I've yet to hear of any being returned to where they entered the EU (likewise Belgium), here in Belgium they seem to get hotel accommodation costing a fortune from what I've heard in the media."



    Buzet, quite a few residents of Gitmo hotel have been returned to their homelands (Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc.,) where they immediately joined al-Qaida in Arab Peninsula.

    [aQ must have offered much better accomodations and life insurance]

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  • 202. At 10:57am on 09 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    146. At 11:05pm on 08 Nov 2010, ptsa wrote:

    Dear ptsa. You are Greek-Armenian like the person I am with. You should thus know that any dialogue with a Turk and/or a muslim is pretty much mission impossible unless you redress him and put him in a context where he cannot escape. You talk sense, these poeple talk religion.

    Just watch about this:

    147. At 11:05pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:
    """I also want to state, I am not here to preach, I do want to correct misinformation..."""

    So that is what he claimed. But just watch a typical example of doing dialogue with a Turk/muslim:

    Read what I wrote in messsage:

    131. At 9:50pm on 08 Nov 2010

    I asked how on earth Turks who as a society passed the whole 20th century genoiding and ethnically cleansing even the last of the last "non-conforming cultures" that in the past made out 45% of their country have the nerve to be pretty much the only ones that demand things in Germany?

    ... and there comes the little turks' reply:

    140. At 10:31pm on 08 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:
    """Nik,
    I see that you wish to start a historical debate.. that is not my subject area at present here.""""

    Historic?

    """In regards to 'The age of Empires' in regards to slaughterings in Constantinople (Istanbul today) every empire has done such acts, it was the way things were back then. I don't see what this has to do with the topic at hand."""

    WHERE ON EARTH DID I MENTION THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE?


    """However, I get so bored that whenever I speak to a person of Greek ethnicity, they always have to bring up the Ottoman empire.. goodness sake get over it and focus on the subject at hand.""""

    AGAIN AND AGAIN. WHERE ON EARTH DID I MENTION THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE?

    """In future, I wish to comment only in regards to the topic at hand, Integration of Muslims in their respective adopted lands."""

    -----------------

    So you see dear Ptsa how is about doing dialogue with a so called "civilised wannabe westernised Turk"? There is no logic. Just a funny combination of blind fanatiscism, hatred, cheap pseudopride and pompus bravado.

    He did not even answer a single question and tried to deflect the discussion into horribly distoring and digustingly lying that I opened an as-if discussion on their older joke of an empire, Ottoman sultante. Whatever.

    As said, you do not deal with that seat. You just redress him again and again until either he is cornered to reply to the open questions (which is practically impossible for him to do), or getting out of this discussion in which monologues have no place.

    Questions are:

    1) So coming from one of the least tolerant countries and cultures in the world, the question arises - how on earth do you have a face to even raise a single question concerning some of the most tolerant cultures on earth like the German or the British?

    2) What is it exactly that you want? Tell us?

    3) And why is it that the thing you demand from the Germans and the British has to be radically different from what you think of your own mother country?

    Go4aa1 will have to answer the above:
    - without evading.
    - without lying.
    - without distorting.

    Take my word: he will fail to do so.

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  • 203. At 11:03am on 09 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Buzet 23

    #198

    Obviously you have never met torture victims ?

    --- or think the torturers are only doing an honest days work ?

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  • 204. At 11:13am on 09 Nov 2010, Molewood6 wrote:

    Sammy1975 made an interesting point (51).

    When I migrated from London to Munich in 1978 I already spoke German fluently and had visited Germany many times on holiday and had numerous German friends. There's a big difference however between visiting a foreign country and living there. You have no conception of the culture shock I experienced in moving from one big city to another where I already spoke the language and had a job to go to. The religion is also the same. The detail differences between Cockney and German "culture" took some six months to overcome and get used to. If I hadn't spoken German and adopted the local style of manners (in Munich better described as "funny - and sometimes very unfunny - little ways") I'm sure I would've remained an outsider.

    Imagine someone from rural Anatolia who doesn't speak German and is not used to the big city. The effort required of them is much greater but no less necessary, rather more so, and the consequences of making no effort would be much more severe for them than they would have been for me. All the more reason, therefore, to encourage immigrants to learn the language, acquire the local style of manners and attitudes (this is primarily what Friedrich Merz meant by "Leitkultur") and get a job in a German firm.

    Someone who doesn't do these things is not necessarily stubborn or ultra-conservative; more likely they're unsure of themselves in what is perforce a strange environment. To obligate people to learn the language is a good starting point because once you can speak to people you can learn to find your way in their society.

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  • 205. At 11:26am on 09 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    Sarrazin said, among other things:

    "Integration requires effort from those that are to be integrated. I will not show respect for anyone that is not making that effort. I do not have to acknowledge anyone who lives by welfare, denies the legitimacy of the very state that provides that welfare, refuses to care for the education of his children and constantly produces new little headscarf-girls."

    He has also said regarding Islam,

    “No other religion in Europe makes so many demands. No immigrant group other than Muslims is so strongly connected with claims on the welfare state and crime. No group emphasizes their differences so strongly in public, especially through women’s clothing. In no other religion is the transition to violence, dictatorship and terrorism so fluid.”

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  • 206. At 11:34am on 09 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #184 EUpris

    Your inconsistencies are extremely constant !

    ---which wrong wall today ?

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  • 207. At 11:40am on 09 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    """Imagine someone from rural Anatolia who doesn't speak German and is not used to the big city. The effort required of them is much greater but no less necessary, rather more so, and the consequences of making no effort would be much more severe for them than they would have been for me."""

    So does hold true for a Chinese. I never saw anyone complain much about them and never saw Chinese complain about locals.

    However: some weeks ago there was a huge protest of 20,000 Chinese of the
    Parisian Chinese community (pretty much most of them!!!) who went out, men women and children to protest against the muslim violence and racially targeted attacks against them.

    So stop dong the ostrich.

    """All the more reason, therefore, to encourage immigrants to learn the language, acquire the local style of manners and attitudes (this is primarily what Friedrich Merz meant by "Leitkultur") and get a job in a German firm."""

    No. It is their job to do so.

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  • 208. At 11:58am on 09 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #204 Molewood6

    Brits usually flock to English speaking countries to escape -- the easy way out.

    Their idea of integration in the other countries, is to find a pub (preferably English run), organize a bridge club and pass around British newspapers between each other !

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  • 209. At 12:04pm on 09 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Re #208

    The last sentence referred to the ´Ancient Brits´abroad.

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  • 210. At 12:44pm on 09 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #203. At 11:03am on 09 Nov 2010, quietoaktree

    Over emotive words, just how many asylum seekers do you think are actually tortured, not many in reality, most simply use the theoretical possibility that they may be tortured as a means to escape return. In reality one has to just why they brought themselves to the attention of the authorities of their home nation, and yes there are a very few nations that do torture their citizens, but the answer is not to overload the EU with their citizens.

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  • 211. At 1:24pm on 09 Nov 2010, anotherfakename wrote:

    Personally I think it is entirely reasonable to expect an immigrant into your country to try and blend in.
    a) Learn the language - and for me thats difficult, when I moved abroad I struggled with that, but I tried, and I certainly made sure I survived without getting someone to translate for me - I got my own translation book and used the internet.
    b) Adopt the customs - don't expect British beer and refuse anything else, don't expect to slaughter your animals in the street in humanely because its 'your religion' - it might be your religion but it is still disgusting.
    c) Abide by the laws, if you don't like a countries laws then sod off to somewhere you do like

    We should try having the same ideas here.

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  • 212. At 3:03pm on 09 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Something's brewing...


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11720008

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  • 213. At 3:33pm on 09 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #210 Buzet 23

    Sorry I might have guessed ---only the lefties can be expected to hold such views against torture and they brought it upon themselves !

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  • 214. At 3:46pm on 09 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    The main problem of this discussion is the definition of "Muslim".

    In reality so called Muslim people around the world are highly diverse and heterogeneous.

    There are lightyears between an Indonesian and an Egyptian Muslim.

    There is also a multitude of sects which are only officially Muslim while keeping their traditions secret. (Alevits, Druse, Suffis, ...)

    Also the concept of "Nationality" is different in non-european countries. Already when dealing with so called Turks, you have a multitude of different social groups, experiencing highly nationalistic assimilation pressure from the kemalist state.

    I big part of the immigrants to Germany are even not religious or the second generation doesn't even know the tradition of their parents.

    When they say "I am a Muslim" they mainly identify with their family background.

    But the definition of Muslim is done by modern media. And the media is either influenced by Ultraorthodox propaganda from the Saudis, or conservative Occidentals fears.

    For instance, at no part of the Koran you will find any rule talking about headscarf!

    When Sarrazin talks about Muslims he's influenced by the new Oriental population of Berlin, mainly Anatolian Turks and (so called) Lebanese refugees.

    He doesn't know better and I can't blame him. It's not the responsibility of the hosting society to take care about all aspects of cultural differences around the world.

    OTOH their are no known problems in Germany with Persians. In contrary they are doing very well, also because most of them are well educated refugees from the actual Iranian regime.

    The so called Lebanese are nomads who don't have Lebanese nationality and were living in refugee camps in the slums of Beirut at the bottom of society. They took advantage of the turmoil of German unification to fly to east Berlin, travel by subway to the west and ask for asylum from civil war. The fact of not having a valid passport protects them from being expelled.

    After 20 years those families nearly completely interbred with a reproduction rate of 6-8 children and stay within social welfare. Most of their children not only refuse to integrate but propagate a macho culture in their schools, claiming being discriminated and telling other kids of Muslim background to disrespect the hosting country.

    Despite being fed by the modern society they call German girls "bitches", are mobbing other "bloody Christians" and force their sisters to stay at home and marry their cousin.

    Those families have networks in tribal structures and many form a new kind of organized criminality. While only forming a small proportion of the local population they are leading all statistics about heavy criminality.

    If you are interested in a deeper analysis please google for the essays of aforementioned Lebanese scholar Ralph Ghadban (sorry in German).

    I sympathize a lot with all modern westernized Muslims who feel stigmatized by this discussion and I hate how undifferentiated many politicians are dealing the problem.

    As a German I frequently feel stigmatized by people with the least inter-cultural know-how who hardly speak any foreign language and think after seeing two or three Nazi-Movies they are experts of Central European society and history.

    OTOH you have to understand that what Sarrazin is achieving is breaking this taboo, which hinders many officials to talk frankly and take the necessary steps to confront this development.

    The important lecture taking from the German 30s is that a Democracy needs democrats!

    Let me be clear, knowing the recent history and decline of many oriental Mediterranean countries like I do, would help better understand how important it is
    to take measures against this 3rd world mob mentality.

    Egypt in the early 50s was a much more modern country than today! And Beirut is struggling to stay an international modern cosmopolitan city.

    May enlightenment and education win!

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  • 215. At 4:00pm on 09 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    To:

    Margaret (re #22) and any others bothering to read the 7 (so far: #129, 131, 132, 136, 171, 202, 207) contributions of the mad greek on this issue of minorities & Human rights should keep this in mind.

    Nik is the chap who in a previous Blog article comment claimed:

    The Burmese junta is totally correct to hold its 'democratic' elections whilst Aung San Kyu the revered political leader is held under 'house arrest' for 20+ years in Myanmar.
    He explained Nobel Prize winner Aung San Kyu's imprisonment was deserved as the Burmese Generals were 'protecting' the Burmese people from the influences & effects of the capitalist west.

    Thus, we have the true measure of the extent of the freedom of thought & expression guiding the philosophy of chairman Nik!

    Margaret: You, of course, will be surprised, but unconcerned for so long as the mad greek churns out daft histories discrediting the 'english' the idea of a balance of perspective isn't on Your agenda, is it!?

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  • 216. At 4:01pm on 09 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #208

    You do realise that Germany is only a fraction behind the UK in the number of expats it has right? You think that they make any better effort to integrate into , say, Spain than the Brits do? Not if my month in Spain this summer was anything to go by they dont.

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  • 217. At 4:02pm on 09 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #212

    Why? It clearly states it was the work of a lone gunman

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  • 218. At 4:09pm on 09 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    at 202:

    It is interesting how you are asking to represent not only my whole nation, but the history of it also.

    Yes I am a Turk and that means I feel Turkish, am proud of my heritage etc etc...
    Here is an eyeopener for you: I am also ethnically Yoruk Turk/Greek/Bulgarian/Zaza/Cypriot/Egyptian. Would you care to try and blame me for all of the crimes committed by all people of the ethnic origins above?

    I find you to be very racist, but it isn't surprising at all, the record never changes with 'some' people.

    Talking sense! Is what questioning me about Turkish history in a topic regarding immigrants in the EU? I would beg to differ. In fact I ignored you as I saw fit, since you weren't relevant to the topic.

    Since you are begg...oops I mean repeating the question like a toddler, here are your answers:

    'I asked how on earth Turks who as a society passed the whole 20th century genoiding and ethnically cleansing even the last of the last "non-conforming cultures" that in the past made out 45% of their country have the nerve to be pretty much the only ones that demand things in Germany?'

    The whole 20th Century? so the last genocide was in the year 2000? anyway, the genocide debate is not one I care much about, I am neither pro nor against, It doesn't have anything to do with me. I wonder which non conforming culture it is that you speak of? 45%?

    So you mention slaughters in -Constantinople- yet say you were not talking about the Ottoman empire, are you aware that Turkey 'didn't exist' at the time of Constantinople and in fact it was the -Ottomans- who invaded and slaughtered? a useless question.

    ''"civilised wannabe westernised Turk"? There is no logic. Just a funny combination of blind fanatiscism, hatred, cheap pseudopride and pompus bravado.''
    Wow you got all that information about me in my posts here? Do you work for a secret govt organisation? Can you read my personality from whatever part of the world you are in?

    By the way why are you getting personal?


    ''1) So coming from one of the least tolerant countries and cultures in the world, the question arises - how on earth do you have a face to even raise a single question concerning some of the most tolerant cultures on earth like the German or the British?''

    Thanks for presenting pure facts and not opinions in your question (sarcasm)... As far as I am concerned my culture is tolerant, Britain is also very tolerant, The Germans aren't known for being the most tolerant, perhaps they are, I can't comment.
    Which question have I raised in regards to the above countries tolerance measures?


    2) What is it exactly that you want? Tell us?

    I want you to stop whining and asking irrelevant questions.

    3) And why is it that the thing you demand from the Germans and the British has to be radically different from what you think of your own mother country?

    How do you know what ı think of my motherland: In fact ı have 3 motherlands, England, Turkey and Cyprus. What I demand of them, I haven't mentioned here.. are you a mind reader?

    By the way I am not a he, thanks :)




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  • 219. At 4:09pm on 09 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    #196 Buzet23

    --✄-- You were being typically obtuse --✄--

    It's not me being to you typically obtuse here, it's Math, as Math never come to a compromise.

    --✄-- you give the result (sort of), a few workings in Greek hieroglyphics (or whatever) and then expect everybody to know what the question was --✄--

    A mathematician believes nothing until it is proven
    A physicist believes everything until it is proven wrong
    A chemist doesn't care
    A programmer (who understand computer languages very well like you) simply don't understand the question.

    Btw nobody told you that Math is a universal language and that the principles and foundations of math are the same everywhere around the world as well as Math is not an opinion?

    So you could call the above equation like i did:

    Ellas_Pop(t) = Ellas_Pop(t - dt) + (births - deaths) * dt

    or

    Population(t) = Population(t - dt) + (Births - Deaths) * dt

    or

    Buzzet23(t) = Buzzet23(t - dt) + (Births - Deaths) * dt

    or

    P(t) = P(t - dt) + (B - D) * dt

    and to a mathematician nothing would ever change and since i wrote "it's a basic population model of Greece (Ellas)" i don't think it's to hard to a clever guy like you to understand that e.g. Ellas_Pop "hieroglyphic" means Greek population or that e.g. INIT Ellas_Pop means initial Greek population.

    Of course i don't pretend from people inside here to understand Maths but to someone could be interesting to know more on the immigration subject otherwise they could jump to the results (similar for all European countries like with Greece) and to the questions posted by such results.

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  • 220. At 4:13pm on 09 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    at 189: The only person I know in my family who doesn't drink alcohol, is pregnant at the moment.

    In Turkey the streets of Ankara and Istanbul are full of people drinking Efes Beer.

    I was speaking only of those that don't drink, I didn't say all Muslims don't drink.

    When you say local customs can you explain?

    Isn't following the law and speaking the language enough?
    I also find it strange that a person can REFUSE to learn a language? how the heck would they survive ?

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  • 221. At 4:25pm on 09 Nov 2010, wooman wrote:

    I think fairplay really, if someone moves to a country they should deffinitely make an effort to integrate. They should know the language and the laws and accept and regulate to them, this is the only way that multiculturalism works.

    Take britain for example, we spend our taxes putting up Urdu and polish road signs! why should we do that, they should be able to speak and read our language before they be allowed to live in the UK in order to properly contribute to the society that they are moving into.

    I think its disgusting that people try to change the way a country works becuase it doesnt suit there ideals when really if you move to a country with ideals you dont agree with you shouldnt be there in the first place.

    I dont believe in any racism of any kind however I think that people are so scared of offending other cultures that they change theirs in order to accomodate (well the poloticians make them change theirs in order to accomadate) which is wrong. They should be bending to the concepts of the country they are moving into, not the other way round

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  • 222. At 4:26pm on 09 Nov 2010, Dietrich wrote:

    # 162.

    It is your point whether you like it or not as long as you call yourself a Turk joining this debate. But maybe you really don't know.

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  • 223. At 4:29pm on 09 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    215. At 4:00pm on 09 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    """Nik is the chap who in a previous Blog article comment claimed:
    The Burmese junta is totally correct to hold its 'democratic' elections whilst Aung San Kyu the revered political leader is held under 'house arrest' for 20+ years in Myanmar.
    He explained Nobel Prize winner Aung San Kyu's imprisonment was deserved as the Burmese Generals were 'protecting' the Burmese people from the influences & effects of the capitalist west."""

    """"Thus, we have the true measure of the extent of the freedom of thought & expression guiding the philosophy of chairman Nik!"""

    CBW either you are lacking the educational basis or you are doing it on purpose to taking out this part of my text out of its original context which was meant to be ironic but evidently revealing:

    You want my opinion? Open a map and learn at last where this fantastic country of Myanmar lies. It borders with China and has a nice coastline in the Indian ocean. As such, it being pro-Chinese it becomes the most natural access of China and all it needs is some stability to built railways and a nice port facility to provide an aleternative for China which in that way avoids the likes of US-British controlled Singapoor and Indonesia, essentially created a new traderoute on its own. It is the same thing that China tries to do with Pakistan but then US moved in next door to Afganistan and also doing attacks inside Pakistan to perturbate that development.

    There is no question about the fact that the dictatorship in Myanmar is not exactly any depiction of freedom of speech. But that does not means that Aung San Kyu is any better. She can take all the US money she can and as such win all the elections she can but all she can do is the equivalent of what the Orange revolution did in Ukraine, i.e. keep down the country to poverty. At least by allying with China they have some hope of maintaining the situation stable and foresee some gradual development. I do not condone dictatorships, but I do not condone US-paid politicians playing the Jesus either. The "labels" people of limited understanding put are not my hobby CBW. You can drool over your Vergin Mary Aung San Kyu but all I know she is as evil as the dictators that rule right now the country, perhaps more since at least with the dictators, at least the control is in the hands of Myanmar people (no matter if an oligarhy). If Aung San Kyu prevails control will be in US hands and the local oligarchy around her will be total puppets. We have seen the game in several 10s of other countries and first of all in Europe.

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  • 224. At 4:34pm on 09 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    215. At 4:00pm on 09 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    """Margaret (re #22) and any others bothering to read the 7 (so far: #129, 131, 132, 136, 171, 202, 207) contributions of the mad greek on this issue of minorities & Human rights should keep this in mind."""

    Dear Margaret just ask CBW if he recognises the genocides of:
    1) 1,5 million Greeks
    2) 1,5 million Armenians
    3) 1 million Assyrochaldeans
    in Minor Asia in the first half of the 20th century and you will understand by his concealed speech that this man is just another genocidal denialist and such he is the last man here to ever cared about things like democracy or "minorities". He would not sit and listen the story of the genocie of minorities totalling 45% of the population let alone caring about tiny minorities in a distant country called Myanmar-Birmania. He has a personal hatred against me since I have revealed the poverty of his argumentation (if I can call that), and as such he is bound to try to counter simply anything I will say. If anything he remains amusing and I welcome his show here.

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  • 225. At 4:45pm on 09 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    at 222
    Thanks for knowing my point that I don't know, that I made, without knowing, just because I am a Turk.

    What the heck has got into people? BBC Boards.... hello ? anyone actually moderating here?

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  • 226. At 4:45pm on 09 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #132

    Concerning '..imperialists in muslim countries and other asian lands..', this Quote is from the mad greek, "Basto minto. It was not Europeans... it was England, France, Holland and Portugal, not even Spain so much.."

    So, all 4 are 'European' Nations, but "not" according to the mad greek!

    The nonsense 'revisionist history' gathers pace! It also falls far short of even a basic reality history check:

    '..Spain..'?: Well, there's Western Sahara inc. Morocco as well as Tunisia & Guinea. Plus, only small areas of Asia, e.g. China coast inc. Taiwan (Formosa), Phillipines & various Pacific islands.

    And, as for the rest of Europe:

    Germany?: German East Africa, e.g. Burundi, Rwanda, Tanganyika.

    Denmark had colonies on the Gold Coast known as Ghana, as well as the Danish East India colonies.

    Historical Facts: They're timeless and hard to beat however I'm quite sure that won't stop the mad greek & others from trying to slip through with the newly fashionable and oh-so-politically-expedient revised versions.

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  • 227. At 4:49pm on 09 Nov 2010, Dietrich wrote:

    # 214.

    Good explanations of our reality here in view of those you mentioned.

    The other two subjects are

    - Turkish nationalism on German soil connected with a kind of colonisation

    - and the building up of separate structures of muslim (more or less religious) communities.

    These should be inspected intensively instead talking about integration and other idioms like it in general.

    And, popolfi, this has to be done also by immigrants of muslim background to make clear what they are standing for.

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  • 228. At 4:50pm on 09 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    > 216. At 4:01pm on 09 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:
    > #208
    > You do realise that Germany is only a fraction behind the UK in the number of expats it has right? You think that they make any better effort to integrate into , say, Spain than the Brits do? Not if my month in Spain this summer was anything to go by they dont.

    You must be talking about German tourists not expats.

    From what I know Brits are horrible in foreign languages, most Germans I know have more knowledge in a second foreign language than Brits have in their first.

    Whenever I met Brits being able to have a conversation in a foreign language, they were either from a foreign heritage, had a private school education or were studying this language at uni.

    You know that the primary reason for Brits being underrepresented in Brussels bureaucracy is the lack of knowledge of a second language?

    Most European countries I know have large youth exchange programs, Brits OTOH put most of their energy into swearing about the EU (and American ignorance)

    I have no doubt that there are many embarrassing Germans abroad, but sorry Brits just play in another league of ignorance.

    I once helped a group of desperate Scottish tourists who were waiting for 2 hours sitting in front of a French office, with a big sign "de 9:00 a 17:00 heures sauf samedi". ... Needles to say it was Saturday.

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  • 229. At 4:58pm on 09 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    218. At 4:09pm on 09 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    """It is interesting how you are asking to represent not only my whole nation, but the history of it also."""

    Not at all. I am asking your own personal opinion. I do not either represent Greece or any other state entity. Just speak your opinion.

    """Yes I am a Turk and that means I feel Turkish, am proud of my heritage etc etc...Here is an eyeopener for you: I am also ethnically Yoruk Turk/Greek/Bulgarian/Zaza/Cypriot/Egyptian."""

    There is no ethnicity called "cypriot". Cypriots are Greeks. There were remained of the Ottoman Empire too, populations of muslims who were either local populations converted or other remains, but these did not have any ethnicity attached to them at all. Do not create new ethnicities. Now, I do not care about your racial background, that is not what I asked. Neither I asked you how much proud you are, good for you if you are proud of your nation, that is not the question.

    """Would you care to try and blame me for all of the crimes committed by all people of the ethnic origins above?"""

    I do not blame you. I ask you to explain to me how can Turks who are of the most intoleant themselves be so demanding from one of the most tolerant societies in the world that is the modern German state. I never accused you in person of being intolerant or of having to pay back the irreperable damage that your people have done in the very recent past - only a few decades ago, with perpetrators of crimes still living and thriving and being proud of their doings. Did not ask that from you. I only asked how come? How is it that the intolerant ask tolerance from the tolerant?

    """I find you to be very racist, but it isn't surprising at all, the record never changes with 'some' people."""

    Typical. You cannot sustain the discussion. The discussion surpasses you so you will take out the last knife to throw: "you are racist". Don't you understand that you just characterised yourself and you verified what I said above?

    """Talking sense! Is what questioning me about Turkish history in a topic regarding immigrants in the EU? I would beg to differ. In fact I ignored you as I saw fit, since you weren't relevant to the topic."""

    Funny this told by you who is all the way irrelevant to the topic trying to deflect it at any cost of your own personal value as a decent interlocutor in a discussion.
    Since you are begg...oops I mean repeating the question like a toddler, here are your answers:

    'I asked how on earth Turks who as a society passed the whole 20th century genoiding and ethnically cleansing even the last of the last "non-conforming cultures" that in the past made out 45% of their country have the nerve to be pretty much the only ones that demand things in Germany?'

    """The whole 20th Century? so the last genocide was in the year 2000? anyway, the genocide debate is not one I care much about,"""

    So you propose Germans too to forget about their own perpetrated genocides. Convenient. You genocide and cleanse by the millions, half the population of your place, then bury their memory too. Then move on to demand tolerance from others when moving in their country. Sorry, your place in the civilised world is absolutely questionable.

    """I am neither pro nor against, It doesn't have anything to do with me. I wonder which non conforming culture it is that you speak of? 45%?"""

    In 1910 Minor Asia (without Eastern Thrace with its majoritative christian population) had 17 million population out of which christians were more than 7 million.

    """So you mention slaughters in -Constantinople- yet say you were not talking about the Ottoman empire, are you aware that Turkey 'didn't exist' at the time of Constantinople and in fact it was the -Ottomans- who invaded and slaughtered? a useless question."""

    Still trying to evade the issue? 1955, Constantinople, pogroms against Greeks. The Turkish criminals are still living you know. What ancient history you talk about?


    1)
    """"Thanks for presenting pure facts and not opinions in your question (sarcasm)... As far as I am concerned my culture is tolerant,"""

    Tolerant? Ok:
    1) Genocide of 1,5 million Greeks between 1910-1923
    2) Genocide of 1,5 million Armenians 1910-1923
    3) Genocide of 1 million Assyrians between 1910-1923
    4) State thef of all the property of chistians and augmenting localised pogroms of all christians (and occasionally jews) in the 1930s
    5) Pogroms of Greeks of Constantinople (last group of Greeks) in 1955 (today almost none remains apart a small class of 2000 people, mostly old men)
    6) Open prisons for criminals in the only 2 Aegean islands Turks have (given by the British, Imbros & Tenedos) - prisoners do a pongrom against all villagers who flee - 1960s
    7) Cyprus falied invasion - 1964 (effort to enforce the "Taxim" turkish policy of invading and dividing the island
    8) Cyprus invasion of 1974 and total ethnic cleansing of the occupied part, massacre of more than 3000 POWs (half of them civilians).

    """Britain is also very tolerant"""The Germans aren't known for being the most tolerant, perhaps they are,"""

    I cannot see any difference between the two.

    In a lot? Answer failed.

    2) """I want you to stop whining and asking irrelevant questions."""

    Answer failed.

    3) How do you know what ı think of my motherland: In fact ı have 3 motherlands, England, Turkey and Cyprus. What I demand of them, I haven't mentioned here.. are you a mind reader?

    Answer failed.

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  • 230. At 5:21pm on 09 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 231. At 5:22pm on 09 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    > 218. At 4:09pm on 09 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:
    > ... The Germans aren't known for being the most tolerant, perhaps they are, I can't comment.

    It's a known image problem that Turkish (and many other) media take their informations about Germany by copying English language media instead of paying own corespondents for an independent view.

    And the sentiments in British media highly depends (or did depend?) on Englands success in football. I.e. till 1966 the relations were better than in the decades that followed.

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  • 232. At 5:54pm on 09 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    popolfi

    Re #236

    Quote, "..the sentiments in British media highly depends (or did depend) on England success in football. I.e. til 1966 the relations were better than in the decades that followed."

    Are You for real?

    "..Englands success"! "..football"! "..1966"! "..better"!

    An event on a sporting field 44 years ago is Your basis for an opinion on 60+ million Brits (12 million of whom aren't English!); at least a third of whom are too young to recall the event: at least 1 in 11 of whom in England are not even indigenous English (most preferring Cricket).

    Look, there's stereotyping and then OTOH there's plain OTT, ill-informed judgementalism!

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  • 233. At 6:06pm on 09 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    Albanian citizens have flowed to the streets of the capital, waving EU Community flags, following the decision announcement from Brussels of the Council of Ministers of the interior of the 27 to abolish visas for Albanian and Bosnians citizens in the Schengen area .

    On the main street of the Tirana capital, dozens of cars traveled the city's main streets sounding their horns and waving EU Community flags and symbols.

    We've done it, was the message from Prime Minister Sali Berisha, who spoke of a historic day in which the dream has come true for young people and all Europeans. (all Europeans ???)

    After twenty years since the fall of the communist regime fell today even the wall of visas - said Topi head of state - this is the third, most important in history, day after our independence and the collapse of the dictatorship.

    At every crossroads in the Albanian capital, in addition to road signs, billboards were installed to indicate the distance from Tirana to European capitals with the words without a visa.



    ( That's the most important day in Greece after the economic crisis hit us. Finally the more than 700.000 Muslim Albanians living in Greece can easily go to Germany, Holland , Sweden etc. for a job searching. Now we can concentrate more to the Pakistanis, Bangladesh and Afghans living in Greece )

    ...and of course Buzzet23 the INIT Imm_Pop = 1000000 parameter (immigrant population living in Greece) at my #93 post ought to be updated.

    ...Life is full of surprises

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  • 234. At 6:14pm on 09 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    214. At 3:46pm on 09 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    """The main problem of this discussion is the definition of "Muslim"."""

    There is a problem but that is common. In France they largely mean the Algerians and in that they do not so much refer to minorities of Algerian such as the Kabyl (who have considerably different approach) but to common Arab Algerians.

    """In reality so called Muslim people around the world are highly diverse and heterogeneous."""

    Why wouldn't they be?

    """There are lightyears between an Indonesian and an Egyptian Muslim."""

    Yet both celebrated the genocides in Minor Asia, that 100 years back. Their populations will blindly support any cause of any muslim be it the genocide at east Timor. Do you know that there is not a single article in a single newspaper in a muslim country for the genocide of East Timorians? All there is, is Palestine where the genocide managed to kill so many Palestianians that from 500,000 in 1945 they are numbering now several millions...

    """There is also a multitude of sects which are only officially Muslim while keeping their traditions secret. (Alevits, Druse, Suffis, ...)"""

    Druse are hardly any muslims, it is a whole different religion. They are under a lot of pressure by the muslims in Lebanon where most of them are. Alevits are found very often in ex-Ottoman lands and of course nowadays in Turkey. Since Alevitism - though a sect developed in the east - propagated mostly as an amalgam of islam with many christian elements, it became the point of entry of islamisation of local christians of Minor Asia. Hence in reality a sufficient number of them have not only a different sect identity but often they are half-conscious of their different origins too. Alevites are under severe persecution by sounnites in Turkey and have their places of worship destroyed, their priests are beaten regularly, their women who are more emancipated than sounnite women are especially targetted for rapes and such and other such problems. Suffis are a small group representing esoteric islam. They are not really a lot more influential than Cappoucine and Benedictine monks.

    """Also the concept of "Nationality" is different in non-european countries."""

    Nationality is different in European countries too. English and French and Spanish and Italians were defined first as a state, then as a nation. Scandinavians, apart Finnish, were defined by a mix of proxy and royalties. Slavic nationalities were mostly made out by "proxies" but then Slavs were never that far apart having highly interlinked national awarenesses. Balkan nations such as Greeks, Serbs & Bulgarians due to their older history as well as the fragmentalisation of the region derive their nationality mostly out of their own understanding of their own position irrespective of state structures and geopolitical games that did not even favour their existence (see games between Britain and Russia of the 18th-19th century etc.).

    In the same manner, muslims too derive their own national awareness in their own unique manner - there is no mystery about it. In our example Turks are quite open on it, the are the descendants of the previous Ottoman Empire and as such while ethnically they do recognise belonging to a kind of super-nation, that is Turkish tied around the turkish language, the islamic religion, the historic rememberance of the Ottoman Empire as well as the traditions of the kemalist state. This is not any weird, afterall that is not different to how the nation of French was made (who remembers the French were initially a very German ethnic group, more Germanic than the likes of Goths and Vandals - modern French would not even speak much of it).

    """Already when dealing with so called Turks, you have a multitude of different social groups, experiencing highly nationalistic assimilation pressure from the kemalist state."""

    ... which followed the genocides of those bound to be non-conforming ones which were a prerequisite.

    """A big part of the immigrants to Germany are even not religious or the second generation doesn't even know the tradition of their parents."""

    Who is really religious? It is always a small minority. Most are just pretending, using religion more or less as a football team.

    """When they say "I am a Muslim" they mainly identify with their family background."""

    And with that one may suggest that the whole issue will go back to race actually. Since a Turk will never identify culturally himself with Germans. And one should not accuse the Turk or the Germans, that is the way it is in the interraction of human groups.

    """But the definition of Muslim is done by modern media. And the media is either influenced by Ultraorthodox propaganda from the Saudis, or conservative Occidentals fears."""

    """TOH their are no known problems in Germany with Persians. In contrary they are doing very well, also because most of them are well educated refugees from the actual Iranian regime."""

    Precisely. You have to take into account their social position too. Though I have to admit that I have met also lower class Persians and I can tell you they are different from all other Middle Easterners and stand out for being the only ones that can claim they are not a culture but a civilisation. It is still something evident on them and that thing is something I respect.

    """The so called Lebanese are nomads...After 20 years those families nearly completely interbred with a reproduction rate of 6-8 children and stay within social welfare. Most of their children not only refuse to integrate

    Although the above refers to a small minority groups inside the muslim majorities... in fact the things below are highly descriptif of a wide range of muslim populations and of such considerable numbers where we cannot anymore talk about disruptive minorities but about a generalised thought:

    """...but propagate a macho culture in their schools, claiming being discriminated and telling other kids of Muslim background to disrespect the hosting country."""

    Typical. Muslims when arriving in a country they will keep a low profile because being in small numbers. But when they become a noticeable entity, they will start their dance. It is pretty much everywhere in the world, the same story over and over again. One has to understand that for a muslim, a fidel is bound by no human or god's law to have the slightest of respect for any non-muslim.

    """Despite being fed by the modern society they call German girls "bitches", are mobbing other "bloody Christians"""

    A ok, that is the age old complex of muslims - how to get to attack the women of the infidels. It is not a stereotype of something, it is something we see in everyday society. Turks especially have an age old tradition they kept up to our days with their troops passing a lot of time searching for women to rape in the empty houses of Greeks at Cyprus - those found hinding were raped in front of their families, that including women who were sick, 10 years old children, pregnant women and even women above 70 - those who could not leave early on. Do not ask me on that, go find out for yourselfs. Noticeably, those who abstained from such were the Kurds who by 1970s had taken their distances from Turks and as such they had even reacted (in one notable case, a Kurd soldier had murdered the officer for the rape of a 12 year old girl). All that is kind funny since of the most westernised of the muslims, the Turks remain with all that cheap-macho pseudo-bravado behaviour towards infidel women all while their worst nightmare is having their sister being approached by an infidel man.

    And then they ask why people do call them un-integrated?

    """and force their sisters to stay at home and marry their cousin."""

    Note though that a part of Turkish society has started becoming more open in relation to that. Eg. up in England in my uni days, all Turkish girls were around Greek men (there is a subtle phenomenon according to which Turks see in Greek the superior type they always wanted to be - as such Greek men are bound to be attractive to the eyes of Turkish women even more than what counts for other). I even know a personal friend that married a Turkish woman and her family had no problem with that, nor did they ask him to become a muslim unlike the Egyptian family of the wife of another friend of mine who, while not so religious, asked him to become muslim to marry her.

    There is though a question. Are those "Turks-Turks"? Or "so-so Turks" i.e. Alevis or even cryptochristians (or half-half of these).

    """If you are interested in a deeper analysis please google for the essays of aforementioned Lebanese scholar Ralph Ghadban (sorry in German)."""

    Us Greeks (and Bulgarians, and Serbians and Romanians) know much better first hand. Europeans start comprehending now. In a sense, many Balkan people christians are feeling just fine with muslims provoking so many problems in central and western Europe since that way western Europeans may feel the misery of living next to muslims.

    """I sympathize a lot with all modern westernized Muslims who feel stigmatized by this discussion and I hate how undifferentiated many politicians are dealing the problem."""

    I do not feel sorry for anyone. They never did their self-assessement. Even the moderates of them are down to the basics no different in the sense they will always divide the world in fidels and indifels and the latter will always be for them second category humans. Do not be fooled by their declarations. You only need to scratch them slightly so they reveal their real face.

    """As a German I frequently feel stigmatized by people with the least inter-cultural know-how who hardly speak any foreign language and think after seeing two or three Nazi-Movies they are experts of Central European society and history."""

    I do not feel sorry even for you Germans. You have produced a high culure but you are deep down also barbaric too, you have never shed that part of you. This is 60 years ago (people are still alive from that era), this is not 1000 years ago and what you did to the Jewish, to the Slavs and to the Greeks is unspoken. Live with it and accept your nature. You are no different from the civilised but also barbaric Japanese and Russians.

    """Let me be clear, knowing the recent history and decline of many oriental Mediterranean countries like I do, would help better understand how important it is to take measures against this 3rd world mob mentality."""

    It is nothing like that. The world is now played by a class of people whose games are much larger than you think and in front of whom the likes of Turks, Germans or Arabs are small letters. They are all tools for the plan of global domination each playing its part. Germans are to work and produce, muslims are used in the modern divide and conquer game and their role is not that much different to what was the role of the Goths in the late Roman Empire (Goths were invited in by the then christianised Roman Emperors to be used against the remaining pagan class, remember?).

    """Egypt in the early 50s was a much more modern country than today!"""
    """And Beirut is struggling to stay an international modern cosmopolitan city."""

    Iran too. And this is sad how things went that way.

    """May enlightenment and education win!"""

    That passes essentialy from the disappearence of at least the 3 major monotheistic religions (christians, muslims, jewish).

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  • 235. At 6:43pm on 09 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #213. At 3:33pm on 09 Nov 2010, quietoaktree

    Did the root of the oak confuse you, just try to think.

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  • 236. At 6:49pm on 09 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #169 - quietoaktree

    Well call me a cynic if you want to but I don't recall Sarkozy scrambling to pay Roma repatriating money until after the economic bubble burst. I don't recall Merkel proclaim multi-culturalism as a failure until after their tax payers had to start bailing out other Eurozone members. I don't recall anyone in Britain mouthing off about 'British jobs for British workers' all the time they would not be seen dead doing the jobs some of them now claim are being stolen by foreigners until after the redundancies fallout of economic failure.

    Can you?

    So you know what? In terms of economic difficulty, everyone is looking for someone to blame and the politicians, sensing this, are looking for a soft target. It is called scapegoating QOT and it is indefensible - not because there is not truth in their argument but because of the political opportunism inherent in the timing.

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  • 237. At 6:49pm on 09 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #219. At 4:09pm on 09 Nov 2010, Ellinas

    I'm certain that your friends have just as many problems with your bizarre mentality as the rest of us, keep on thinking that you are superior, at least until the men in the white coats come for you.

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  • 238. At 6:51pm on 09 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #224

    I don't deny and never have denied any of the calamitous crimes perpetrated on any Humans by every kind of other Humans at any given time in History including those of the British, Americans, Chinese, Russians, Aztecs, Mongols, Turks, Romans, Zulus... why even Alexander's Greeks!

    I do deny and have always denied the 'English' & the 'American' is anymore responsible, anymore at fault, anymore likely then or now to contribute/perpetrate such horrendous activities. than all the rest of Human kind who for millennia have wrestled one another for this finite plot called 'earth'.

    By all means "..amuse.." Yourself reading Factual History and constantly denying it with absurd posts about secret service 'conspiracy', the 'wicked capitalist west', and the vengeful 'Turk': Meanwhile, those of us with a grasp of reality will go on with a discourse on how the World really turns without a central cabal of any Faith or Philosophy, but on the recorded Facts of the frailty of the Human condition when accurately presented from past & present.

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  • 239. At 6:53pm on 09 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #220. At 4:13pm on 09 Nov 2010, Go4aa1

    You really have not encountered Belgium have you, I live in the French area and speak French but according to the North all must speak Dutch, what would you do eh, roll over and learn a language that is awful or do what most of us do, refuse.

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  • 240. At 7:03pm on 09 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #233. At 6:06pm on 09 Nov 2010, Ellinas

    It would seem your garbage is being protected by the mods, well done, unfortunately for you most know how devoid your posts are.

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  • 241. At 7:05pm on 09 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #234. At 6:14pm on 09 Nov 2010, Nik

    Short and a précis please, I for one, and many others are getting fed up with scrolling down several screens to pass by your posts.

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  • 242. At 7:10pm on 09 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    A joke, in which country?

    Some guy bought a new fridge for his house.
    To get rid of his old fridge, he put it in his front yard and hung a
    sign on it saying: 'Free to good home. You want it, you take it...'
    For three days the fridge sat there without anyone looking twice.
    He eventually decided that people were too mistrustful of this deal.
    So he changed the sign to read: 'Fridge for sale $50.'

    The next day someone stole it!

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  • 243. At 7:20pm on 09 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    #238 cbw

    --✄-- constantly denying it with absurd posts about secret service 'conspiracy', the 'wicked capitalist west', and the vengeful 'Turk' --✄--

    Take a recent taste of that British policy:

    Britain's former foreign secretary says a formal partition of Cyprus should be considered if current peace talks fail to agree a reunification plan.

    Why the hell a Britain's foreign minister between 2001 and 2006, and a senior Cabinet member until May should have as priority and be unique among Europeans, say such nonsense, dividing a EU democratic country and contextualizing and legalizing war crimes...?

    [British truth soon or later come to the surface]

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  • 244. At 7:32pm on 09 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    ThrenodioII

    Re #236

    Spot on again!

    Political Opportunism of the worst sort: Likewise all this stuff & nonsense on Bhurkas etc.

    It is not a fault that any Democratic European Nation should be able to make arguments and if sufficient majority democratically support, so to introduce 'Laws' about minorities.
    It is very much a fault these multi-culturalism matters only arise in the minds of Politicians of all persuasions when there is a serious Economic breakdown.

    IMO it is the 'liberal' & 'socialist' Politicians who must shoulder most blame for the current development of an unscrupulous and antagonistic 'right-of-centre' in so many EUropean Nations. The 'liberal' & 'socialist' Parties ignored their indigenous Constituency for decades whilst pursuing 'multi-culturalism'; usually overtly lumping together & labelling any voices of opposition or concern about the ever-increasing 'immigration' to Europe as 'racist' or 'extremist'.

    Well, they've got those extremes of ideology as a significant Ballot box factor now and in their true nasty colours. And, with a lot more Citizen support than ever would have been the case had the 'liberal' & 'socialist' agenda not deliberately denied from the 1980s a problem existed or allowed legitimate debate to have opened up a whole lot earlier across Europe.

    You will not be surprised I find the EU-Brussels entity very much at fault in all this: It has had a blatantly 'liberal socialist-left' leaning agenda for decades and furthermore is so concerned with its own centralising acquisition of power it neglected this vital issue - - one which ironically - - its supra-National identity was suited to take up and deal with in a realistic manner. Instead, and classically it leapt onto Schengen etc. and in the process made 'immigration' a confused hotch-potch whereby 'internal' migrants became seen as one-and-the-same as 'external' immigrants!
    Only the EU could take such an opportunity for a genuine demonstration of pan-EUropean 'unity' in the welfare-of-all and oversee such a desperate debacle!

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  • 245. At 7:43pm on 09 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #228 - popolfi

    I see we have another one.

    First their was Marcus and all things European but especially the Brits, then QOT who is convinced the Brits are a bunch of primitive serfs in the thrall of a corrupt aristocracy and an all-powerful monarchy, then someone else - I forget who - who believes that they are about to get their just deserts for milking the Islamic world dry (of what, precisely?). The list of those who use a British web blog to insult the British just goes on and on. And now we have you.

    So let us be clear, the British are a bunch of pig ignorant, monolingual football hooligans with hardly a brain cell to share between them. They have no idea how to behave when abroad, largely I gather because they can't speak their own language, can't hold their drink, play football or read opening hours notices in French. (I presume you 'went to their rescue' either to rub their noses in it or to give yourself something to write about on a blog later).

    Well you should be grateful for small mercies. We - yes I am one - fortunately do not have the intelligence required to ethnically cleanse millions of Armenians then claim it was not genocide, we lack the imagination to mindlessly slaughter 7 million people in death camps, we are just too stupid to kill more of each other in a civil war than we lost in the First World War. We have never been clever enough to elect a Nazi government, had sufficient mental agility to understand the virtues of communist dictatorship.

    Good heavens, we are so dim that the idea of going onto a web blog of a nation we despise and boring them to death with a plethora of unsustainable claptrap born out pure prejudice would never occur to us. That is how thick we are. Really?

    If you are the kind of kid who likes to throw sand in other kids' faces, do me a favour and go play in someone else's sand pit - there's a good chap.

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  • 246. At 7:43pm on 09 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    238. At 6:51pm on 09 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
    Be it you at least theoretically recognise - let it be that I am satisfied with your answer be it extremely introvertly spoken. I do not ask you more than that.

    """Meanwhile, those of us with a grasp of reality will go on with a discourse on how the World really turns without a central cabal of any Faith or Philosophy, but on the recorded Facts of the frailty of the Human condition when accurately presented from past & present."""

    CBW, you do not have to take my word on anything related to the evolution of history in modern times. Why don't you just note down in the back of the head whatever you hear. And when something is cross verified then simply admit that the one who told war right.

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  • 247. At 8:05pm on 09 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #243 - Ellinas

    Because Britain is a 'guarantor power' under the relevant UN resolutions, has had a lead role in the negotiations post referenda and continues to share responsibility for green line security, is supportive of Turkish accession to the EU and therefore interested in ensuring a good resolution and because suspension by the 'Turkish Republic of North Cyprus' (whatever that is) of the EU acquis communautaire makes membership of the EU under any other conditions virtually impossible, maybe?

    But then again, he may just have been 'contextualizing and legalizing war crimes'.

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  • 248. At 8:12pm on 09 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    ThrenodioII

    Re #245

    Spot on x 1,000.

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  • 249. At 8:13pm on 09 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #246

    Aye?

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  • 250. At 8:22pm on 09 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #243


    Quote "..why the hell a Britain's Foreign Minister...?"

    Erm, because it is a classic example of no conspiracy at all, but an open comment about an issue that is troubling all the EU27 as they debate the relative merits & otherwise of the application by Turkey for membership of the EU.

    A Politician with considerable 'Foreign Affairs' experience voicing a possible resolution to a very controversial issue: That, in essence is the 'hell' of it.

    In short: DEMOCRACY. Surely, You recognise it?

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  • 251. At 8:23pm on 09 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    243. At 7:20pm on 09 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    """Take a recent taste of that British policy:
    Britain's former foreign secretary says a formal partition of Cyprus should be considered if current peace talks fail to agree a reunification plan.

    Why the hell a Britain's foreign minister between 2001 and 2006, and a senior Cabinet member until May should have as priority and be unique among Europeans, say such nonsense, dividing a EU democratic country and contextualizing and legalizing war crimes...?"""

    Because you know very well why mate!

    """[British truth soon or later come to the surface]"""

    It should be clear to anyone that behind Cyprus problem hides Britain. It was the colonial power that massacred repeatedly the Cypriots back in the 1930s, it was the British who formed muslim-only militia arming them (with the back then 8% of overall population small muslim community being in % 10 times more armed than the Greek community - British doing so with an obvious aim to provoke trouble). It was the British that offered the island independence and self-disposition for collaboration in WWII, then retracted it causing the beggining of anti-British rule national struggle of the Cypriots and there the British took out the ethnic-clash card, calling in Turkey for the first time to develop its "taxim" policy all while letting Turkey enter enormous quantities of weaponry to arm the infamous MIT so as to fight off the EOKA who were fighting the British since it was the British the occupiers of the island, not the 8% small muslim minority mostly found in certain areas.

    You have to delve into the details to understand the divisive British policies that brought the Greek majority face to face with a small Turkish minority that normally should have absolutely no interest in the whole affair of Greeks fighint the British (and down to the basics, few of them had - there are tons of paradigms where Cypriot muslims not only favoured independence from British but also even union with Greece which they considered a civilised country. MIT was not just made out of local Turks but was actually a tool of the Turkish military - all that as per instruction by the British.

    For every above statement there are tons of evidence. The whole affair had never to do with Greeks and Turks, it had to do with Greeks and British. Turks just enterred as another piece in the puzzle only to provide the British with a solution according to their interests and they can only be accounted for having yet once again acted like the turks they have always been when enterring and occupying half the island for the account of British.

    But then as you say British are quite honest this time. They are the responsible and they take full responsibility for the death of several thousands of people and the loss of homes of 100,000s of people. And you know what? They are 100% ok with it, they do not care. For them it is all about going to North Cyprus and buying bargain houses, houses whose proprietors have been either violently expulsed or

    You have to note done that Tony Blair's wife Cherry officially is responsible for the legal cases of British illegal buyers of those occupated homes and she is fighting in the EU courts for the right of British citizens to buy the houses of the ethnically cleansed, often murdered people, raped women and children etc.

    That is your culture CBW. Be proud of it man! But know that my own pride makes me prefer death over even thinking of buying the house of a murdered or a cleansed family. That is OUR culture CBW and the huge civilisational difference that lies between you and us.

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  • 252. At 8:32pm on 09 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    That is a point of convergence of British and muslims (especially Turks) :

    They are both interest to grab what is not theirs and they will use all violent means to have it. Violence binds these two. If we so often accuse the Turks for their violence, at the end of the day poor Turks of 2% literacy levels after 500 years of Empire, they had never learn any other way but what can we say about the British? John Lennon and the Beatles were already forming their band to go on sing about love and such but in Cyprus, the British would not hesitate to hang 17 years old boys for possession of (non-functioning pre-WWI) arms.

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  • 253. At 8:37pm on 09 Nov 2010, Norman Conquest wrote:

    245. At 7:43pm on 09 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    ...

    Well you should be grateful for small mercies. We - yes I am one - fortunately do not have the intelligence required to ethnically cleanse millions of Armenians then claim it was not genocide, we lack the imagination to mindlessly slaughter 7 million people in death camps, we are just too stupid to kill more of each other in a civil war than we lost in the First World War. We have never been clever enough to elect a Nazi government, had sufficient mental agility to understand the virtues of communist dictatorship.

    ++++

    well... but you do apparently have the intelligence required to starve to death at least 3 million Bengali in just one of many incidents.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/soutikbiswas/2010/10/how_churchill_starved_india.html

    and that's just the point really -- the British have never had either a Nazi or a Communist dictator yet they succeeded in exterminating far more people than Stalin and Hitler put together in just the 20th century alone.

    You can only imagine what would have happened if you had a capable dictator.

    Nobody is attacking the British on this "British" blog, people just are just pointing out to you what have been erased from your brain (such as it is) by the din of incessant and crafty British government propaganda.

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  • 254. At 8:39pm on 09 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    250. At 8:22pm on 09 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    """In short: DEMOCRACY. Surely, You recognise it?"""

    I will come into your house. I will rape your wife in front of you and your kids. I will then kick you all out, take your house, use it as it is
    (personally I would not use your plates and you washing machine but in the real life example this was done, even childrens' toys were given to the occupation families' children as-if presents of parents...just to get the idea...)...

    ... and after a couple of years sell it to some Indian or Chinese who is interested to have a house in Britain too.

    Then I will call you an idiot for speaking of that matter.

    Perhaps that will teach you all the democracy you need to know.

    Earlier you were saying you recognise all the genocides. I still do accept you recognise all the genocides. But according to you, recognising a genocide, a massacre or an ethnic cleansing is one thing - bying a cheap house is another.

    As said, that is your level of civilisation (and personal pride). Live with it. We could not do similarly.

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  • 255. At 8:48pm on 09 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    249. At 8:13pm on 09 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
    """Aye?"""

    Ahaha... do not just sit down and stare. All I am saying is that "even if you do not like what you hear, learn something out of it". The fact that you have never been taught of the British being behind major geocnides, slaughters and ethnic cleansings does not mean your state is not responsible for that. The fact that you wrote history with the aid of your cousins does not mean that Churhil was any much less butcher than Hitler or Stalin. The fact that your Beatles had nice songs and contributed to Britain having a nice relaxed society it is today, does not mean that at the same time you did not hang 17 years old boys for breakfast?

    See what you can learn here? Don't you appreciate it? Are you mad at having your beloved state being classified as a butcher? Relax, you are not alone it it. There are Germans and Turks and Japanese and Russian-communists and even Americans lately are trying to join this prestigius club doing all the can.

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  • 256. At 8:49pm on 09 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #251

    From my perspective the 'civilisational difference' hangs in the balance of probabilities:

    Is it probable or even possible for the mad greek to conceive of a rational argument on any topic that does not include reference to the British scheming against Greece?

    Or,

    Is it more probable or even more likely for the Briton-in-me to just give up caring how the mad greek or anyone with access to so much information & knowledge in the modern World can be still be so misguided?

    I fear the former is beyond reach: I conclude the latter serves best the interest of us both.

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  • 257. At 8:57pm on 09 Nov 2010, MaxSceptic wrote:

    threnodio_II @ 245:

    Cheers!

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  • 258. At 8:57pm on 09 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #236 Threnodio

    I supported you as a non-Christian for the EU and political parties to leave Christianity out of their dealings and texts.

    My request that ´God´ also be excluded -- landed me with #236 and #245.

    --was that a double-cross or a double-standard ?

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  • 259. At 9:11pm on 09 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #228. At 4:50pm on 09 Nov 2010, popolfi

    Threnodio was spot on, yet another, and you don't even know the difference between MH and us, so very sad, still keep on taking the tablets.

    "I once helped a group of desperate Scottish tourists who were waiting for 2 hours sitting in front of a French office, with a big sign "de 9:00 a 17:00 heures sauf samedi". ... Needles to say it was Saturday."

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  • 260. At 9:17pm on 09 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    I was just wondering what were the chances of a Turkish Cypriot making a claim in a Greek Cypriot Court for the return of property, land plus compensation following the loss of those things in 1974?

    I looked at some maps & checked some demographics for 1974 & it would seem post-1974 there's a whole lot of Turkish Cypriots unable to access their legal holdings in Greek Cyprus.

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  • 261. At 9:21pm on 09 Nov 2010, Arrrgh wrote:

    Don't talk to me about Islam. It's just beards and scarves.

    See pointless and stupid comment but in the UK and Europe we are allowed to say stupid and pointless things.

    That's the difference. Blind acceptance is a sign of stupid people standing in line.

    But of course your not stupid just blinded by the love of god.

    Another pointless and stupid comment.

    I thank you. Goodnight, god bless and don't let the bed bugs bite.

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  • 262. At 9:26pm on 09 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    To repeat:

    A former British Foreign Minister with many years experience spoke in public on a disputed matter that is of concern to all EU27.
    In that statement he raised the proposition that one method of resolving the dispute was to accept the status quo of a divided island of Cyprus.

    To voice an opinion is a right and a responsibility in a democratic society.

    That is DEMOCRACY: It is easily recognised by those of us who do not confuse a person's right to speak with another person's demand that when they do speak they only say things that they want to hear.

    E.g. In my case - - IMO the greek's views are either mad or so lacking in rational content as to in many aspects lack all credibility - - nevertheless, I fully support that person's right to have their views published.
    If I did not that would be UNDEMOCRATIC.

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  • 263. At 9:39pm on 09 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    NormanC

    Re #253

    Yes, I quite see Your allusion to "..pointing out to you what have been erased from your brain (such as it is) by the din of incessant and crafty British government propaganda.."

    That on-line link certainly puts the boot in, doesn't it?

    Oh wait!

    I've looked again: Why it is so 'incessant' it is an on-line link for the BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION!

    Blimey that is 'crafty' - - just imagine that G.B. Government using the BBC to PUBLICISE the deaths of millions caused by British policy!
    And, when I looked at the link I found links to many other BBC articles, programmes, discussions etc. on similar unsavoury matters concerning the British.

    I tell You, it really opens the eyes: Phew.... imagine that 'din of propaganda' cleverly tucked away in a BBC item detailing cruelty by G.B.!

    Astonishing really, those Brits, they're cunning I tell You, damned if they're not!

    Thanks for pointing it out: I'm sure all us Brits are grateful You've got Your eye on BBC programmes because of course no one in G.B. would, would they!?

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  • 264. At 9:41pm on 09 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #258 - quietoaktree

    Neither of the above. I speak as I find and when I agree with you, I am happy to say so. You must admit though that you have made a bit of a hobby horse out of the English feudal thing and I simply don't agree with you. That is all. This is not personal.

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  • 265. At 9:42pm on 09 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #260 CBW

    Yes, you are correct !

    and Britain assisted in the map´s accuracy !

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  • 266. At 9:49pm on 09 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 267. At 9:54pm on 09 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    260. At 9:17pm on 09 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
    """I was just wondering what were the chances of a Turkish Cypriot making a claim in a Greek Cypriot Court for the return of property, land plus compensation following the loss of those things in 1974?
    I looked at some maps & checked some demographics for 1974 & it would seem post-1974 there's a whole lot of Turkish Cypriots unable to access their legal holdings in Greek Cyprus."""

    Good question CBW, but you are not informed well. In reality, all Turkish Cypriot property is there waiting for them (in whatever state it is, Greeks left it as it is - to be compared with what happened in the north). Turkish Cypriots are welcome to return and take back their property albeit in that they are recognising that in Cyprus the only legal state is the Cypriot Democracy - doing so implies they recognise the illegality of the invasion and as such they lose all titles they were given in North Cyprus.

    Now tell me, would you go back to your hut-house in some southern pariah-region (not that Greek had condemned there, muslims were all about illiterate poeple getting impoverished when the Ottoman administration left the island) and refuse the titles given by the illegal pseudo-state of the North which include large houses and property of the Greeks in the north which can bring you at some cases even millions? I would do it, just to get my father's house but then as said I am from a different civilisational background, you are from a different, Turks are also from a different. So Turkish Cypriots won't. For a Turk and in general for a muslim, the idea of a motherland, a country is something much more relative than for any other. They feel just fine where they are, they managed to get the nicest part of the island, get large nice houses, then live with the billions of liras Turkey throws on them to survive as an entity. Germans who protest about them working and Turks get the benefits would find consolation in that Turks of Turkey work to pay the Turkish Cypriot and above all the 3 times more than the local Turkish Cypriot, Turkish colonists, who are there vacating on other peoples' property for some 36 years now. Now, how about joining them by buying a cheap house there? Who cares if people were murdered so as to arrive in the hands of your seller. Business is business.

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  • 268. At 10:02pm on 09 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #264 Threnodio

    --sorry, both of the above !

    You were willing to accept my support of you being non-christian, but dropped me like a hot-stone when I requested the same Rights.

    You were willing to accept that Christianity be purged from EU texts (and parties) but NOT ´God´when you realized it is unpatriotic and the trouble it would cause in Britain.

    You rejected ´Simpleton´and ´blind nationalist´ too quickly.

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  • 269. At 10:03pm on 09 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    CBW, how many times do we have to repeat the same and same again and again.

    """Is it probable or even possible for the mad greek to conceive of a rational argument on any topic that does not include reference to the British scheming against Greece?"""

    For the last 350 years we see British around. It is not English people or something. It is the international bankoinvesting oligarchies of western Europe who had by late 18th century made Britain as their main tool of excercise of power in the large international scene. It is not the average Brit plotting or something, if anything British middle class people, a nation of mariners, got fairly well with Greeks, another nation of mariners. When we mean Britain we mean British geopolitics as a main tool of internationalised bankoinvesting games. Such games did not target just Greeks but were rather acting on the larger scene affecting the fate of a large number of nations in the hottest region of earth, that is the middle one (from what you called funnily Balkans down to what was called in the 20th century Afganistan & Pakistan). Whoever controls that, controls the world.

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  • 270. At 10:05pm on 09 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    The North Side of Cyprus has had how much money flowing in from Greek Cypriots of the south....?

    22 Million Euros is what I read somewhere once.

    Thanks for supporting the North

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  • 271. At 10:09pm on 09 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 272. At 10:18pm on 09 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    268. At 10:02pm on 09 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    """You were willing to accept that Christianity be purged from EU texts (and parties) but NOT ´God´when you realized it is unpatriotic and the trouble it would cause in Britain."""

    I find it quite logical. Without God who would save the Queen (from whom I do not know, I guess from the bad guys or something?)?

    I mean, without God, we are only left with the notions of universe, chaos etc. What could we say? "Chaos save the Queen"? So where would the queen take orders from? Where from would she acquire sovereignty rights? From the EU?

    "European Commision save the Queen"?

    Do not know. Logically, it makes more sense than "God save the queen" as at least European Commisioners are there and can be asked to say their opinion if they want to save her or not, but then it is not that inspiring is it?

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  • 273. At 10:22pm on 09 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #253 - Norman Conquest

    We are never going to know the actual figures and high estimates are questionable but anything up to 60 million is Stalin's score if you include war dead and around 20 million in terms of civilians. Hitler's score, heaven only knows but. if the holocaust amounts to 7 million, you would probably have to at least double that. So let's say - being conservative - 50-70 million between them.

    Now you seem to be seriously suggesting that the British have willfully killed over 50 million people in the 20th century and, if so, you are going to have to come up with some pretty damned convincing evidence of which I am unaware because I think you have simply pulled that figure out of thin air.

    Read the post you quoted. "Mukherjee blames Churchill's policies . . ." it says. By any standards, Churchill would have had to have planned and engineered the famine of 1943 in order to have 'willfully killed' anyone. Plainly he could not do such a thing.

    "Nobody is attacking the British on this "British" blog . . . ", you say. Well inventing wildly speculative and almost certainly grossly exaggerated figures to substantiate an unsustainable claim them accusing us of being brainwashed by 'British propaganda is not an attack, then I do not know what is.

    #255 - Nik

    "The fact that you wrote history with the aid of your cousins does not mean that Churhill was any much less butcher than Hitler or Stalin".

    You as well. We do not need to reinvent history. We may be embarrassed and even ashamed of some of it but we don't have to rewrite it. I am trying to remember - perhaps you can help me - when since the last war Britain fell into such a state that it need to be taken over by a military junta or the last time we had to be bailed out because our accountants were liars.

    You see how easy it is to be insulting if you want to be? And how utterly pointless.

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  • 274. At 10:28pm on 09 Nov 2010, Arrrgh wrote:

    Regarding 261, I think you've just gone too far. How dare you. We stopped that sort of thing.

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  • 275. At 10:30pm on 09 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    > 232. At 5:54pm on 09 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
    > Are You for real?
    ...
    > An event on a sporting field 44 years ago is Your basis for an opinion on 60+
    > million Brits (12 million of whom aren't English!); at least a third of whom are
    > too young to recall the event: at least 1 in 11 of whom in England are not even
    > indigenous English (most preferring Cricket).

    > Look, there's stereotyping and then OTOH there's plain OTT, ill-informed
    > judgementalism!

    I know it's hard to believe, but it's not my invention!

    In a German documentary called "Der Fluch von Wembley: Geschichte eines Jahrhundert Tores" (can be found on youtube) they interviewed a certain David Downing, author of the book "The Best of Enemies: England v. Germany".

    He said that the image of Germany in the British media significantly worsened after England started loosing every significant match against Germany from 1970 on.

    If it's wrong, blame him!

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  • 276. At 10:31pm on 09 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #267

    It would seem some on the Aegean would need to check again the facts of Cypriot property ownership: There are many properties formerly in the possession of Turkish Cypriots now 'occupied' (no more, no less than in the north) by Greeks.

    The case of the 'Aroms' (circa 2004 to 2010 with ECJ finding in favour of Greek Cypriot law - - why the fuss over QC Cherie Blair exercising the DEMOCRATIC right & responsibility to represent them ? - - the ECJ Judgement did not however support the Greek Cypriot couple's claims only the Right of their Case to be heard in another EU member state, i.e. the UK) could not be done in a reverse scenario with a Turkish Cypriot couple seeking redress in the Greek Cypriot Courts.

    True Democrats know it to be so, but Greek Cypriots & their mainland supporters just cannot bring themselves to admit it.

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  • 277. At 10:38pm on 09 Nov 2010, Seraphim wrote:

    I must have read the article very wrong as I didn't think it was about Greece vs. Turkey as much as reflected in these posts here.

    However, I wouldn't go as far saying all Turks refuse to integrate. I grew up in a rather rural area in Germany and we had 2 Turkish boys and one Russian (actually I think by todays lines on the globe he was Khazak) in my first grade class. As their families only came over a short time before they knew of course less German, but as they played in the same soccer team as mostly other Germans and obviously had little choice but to speak with other children in school as well. I think they were pretty much well integrated soon and even became very good at the language after a short time.

    On the other side I see how this way obviously can't work out in a suburb of say Berlin with 80 to 100% immigrants in the same class of which none has any knowledge of the language.

    And about that foreign language issue:

    Though I am really not a person to come to a foreign blogg like this to rant about the 'locals', the English really are not famous at all for being brilliant at foreign languages (however I don't think the Germans are either - there are still a lot of people how don't even understand English other than yes/no and my grandparents would have been equally lost at said french office).

    The most pathetic thing I had to observe thiswise were 2 American girls aged about 23 in a full underground in Stockholm loudly making jokes about how the Swedes were pronouncing some words 'wrong' in their opinion, neihter realising that they themselves probably didn't speak ANY foreign language at all nor that literaly everyone around them was more than able to understand what they were saying and just to polite to kick them right out of the train. Not to say that I thought Swedish English in average was far closer to British English than that silly South States accent (wild guess: Texas) of theirs.

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  • 278. At 10:39pm on 09 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #268 - quietoaktree

    Could I have a drag of whatever it is you are smoking?

    "You were willing to accept my support of you being non-christian, but dropped me like a hot-stone when I requested the same Rights".

    You demanded and apology from me as I recall. That is support?

    "You were willing to accept that Christianity be purged from EU texts (and parties)".

    No. To start with, as far as I am aware, Christianity is not mentioned in any EU documents except as one of many faiths. It most certainly does occur in documents of a number of member nations, but that is a whole different ball game. Yes, I am in favour of the separation of church and state as a matter of principle.

    ". . . but NOT ´God´when you realized it is unpatriotic and the trouble it would cause in Britain"

    Where have you ever seen me champion the use of the word 'God' in the political or administrative context? Give me chapter and verse or withdraw the remark.

    Really, this is getting too obtuse.

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  • 279. At 10:45pm on 09 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Popolfi

    Re #275

    I stress: 'Are You for real?'

    On the strength of 1 book You condemn the entire English Nation!?

    There's no 'blame' to attach! You're just way out of Your depth and haven't yet realised it.

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  • 280. At 10:46pm on 09 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 281. At 11:02pm on 09 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    253. At 8:37pm on 09 Nov 2010, Norman Conquest wrote:

    The techically induced famine of 3 million Bengalis in the WWII is only a fraction of the nearly 20 million Indians who died in a much larger famine in late 19th century only because British wanted to sell the agricultural output at better prices in the west. Reduction of the Indian population had always been a major preoccupation among British and what better than a technically induced famine? It is easy to organise and the plot leaves no traces. You pick up the food under any pretext and then oh no there is no food, it is the bad weather and the Indian underproduction (all that in the then one of the most fertile and productive countries on earth!!!). Well such things are more than enough to raise British on the same level as Nazis, Communists and Imperial Japanese. For god shake, these Brits had a whole city-state of 200,000 people annihilated to the last habitant (Benin, W.Africa) because the local king had executed 3-4 diplomats of theirs there. Which make the 100 random locals shot to death for the death of German Nazi policy seem humaine. If we start we do not end.

    And if you want my opinion, yes Russians should elect a Nazi leader and kill half Europe or something. That way they would certainly earn respect if not of anyone else, at least that of the British who would then rush to buy LADAs & MOSKVICSs.

    Ok, I am kidding perhaps too much with all these deeply sordid events. Unstylish black humour.

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  • 282. At 11:13pm on 09 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    It is a bit of a curiosity piece this , 'God Save The Queen' (or 'King').

    It is the National Anthem of the UK, some of the Commonwealth nations and dependencies.


    That aside it is also used (though much less so these days) at certain State occasions, e.g. the Coronation, and, in or as part of the 'Loyal Toast' (obviously visiting Heads of State don't go further than raising their glass to declare, "The Queen!").

    The UK Anthem is attributed to Dr. John Bull (died 1628).

    In France they were singing 'Grand Dieu sauvez le roi..' in the reign of Louis XIV.
    Then there was 'God Save Franz the Emperor...' a really stirring Austrian ditty which has gradually transformed itself into present day unified Germany's preference for only the 3rd stanza anthem because of the embarrassment over 1st stanza 'Deutschland Uber Alles..'.
    Meanwhile the 'authorised' version of the Bible has: 'And all the people shouted, and said, God save the King', Sam. x, 24.

    The UK Anthem as such did not really take-off as a crowd pleaser until the Jacobite Rebellions of the 1740s when it was used by high and low to show loyalty to King George II.

    As a song it has few musical merits and as a tune even less, but has been around so long it seems everyone (well, those 'foreigners' so concerned with it on here) has heard it or has an opinion.

    Personally, I don't find it anymore appealing or otherwise than say the Danes singing, 'King Christian Stood beside the lofty mast..', or the USA's 'Star Spangled Banner..', or come to that Greece's 2 verses of poetic license 'Hymn To Freedom' beginning with 'We know thee of old...' which surely took the prize for hypocrisy during the 'junta' era!?

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  • 283. At 11:22pm on 09 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    According to FIFA, England have 12 wins to Germany's 11 since 1899 when they first played. As to the period post 1966, it is only fair to point out that England have won only 6 of the 19 encounters since then but one of those was 3-0 and another 5-1 and, perversely, England have won both of their last matches played in Germany. This includes the famous 5-1 defeat in Munich.

    I don't think this matters at all but it shows that England's record is actually not as bad as some say, even if they have not done well in big competitions. The so called anti-German sentiment in the media is actually limited to the gutter press which, for the most part, over-estimates the intelligence of the readership by thinking they are being funny when some people are so dumb they actually belive the drivel. This is why Piers Morgan had to apologise when their 'phoney war' gag misfired and started a nera riot in Trafalgar Square.

    I didn't say all of us are brilliant, did I?

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  • 284. At 11:22pm on 09 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #278 Threnodio

    You are now putting your integrity at risk.

    #272 Nik understands your dilemma full well.

    Should Europe defend non-Christians as yourself, when you are unwilling to protect those other than yourself ?



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  • 285. At 11:27pm on 09 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Re#284

    Read-- defend the feelings or the Rights of

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  • 286. At 00:00am on 10 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #280

    British pilots bombed with napalm Greek Cypriots.

    Barking, totally, utterly, irrefutably barking mad...

    Woof, woof, wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooofffffffffffffffffffffff!

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  • 287. At 00:21am on 10 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    245 threnodio writes:
    "So let us be clear, the British are a bunch of pig ignorant, monolingual football hooligans with hardly a brain cell to share between them. They have no idea how to behave when abroad, largely I gather because they can't speak their own language, can't hold their drink, play football or read opening hours notices in French"

    No, threnodio, popolfi clearly exempted a few of you when he wrote at 228:
    "Whenever I met Brits being able to have a conversation in a foreign language, they were either from a foreign heritage, had a private school education or were studying this language at uni."
    I'm sure he also meant to say 'The English' rather than 'Brits' and he is unfortunatly like many other Europeans unaware that there is a big difference between the Celtic inhabitants of these islands and the rest. You must live in a very out-of-the-way part of the world if you don't know that popolfi's view on the English is shared by the majority of people of Europe. I can only guess what the citizens of the former communist parts of Europe think when they encounter the drunken weekend stag parties of those sophisticated English hordes. I won't even mention the women.
    As regards your knowledge of the history of your own country during centuries of brutal empire building and the extermination of many indigenous people in the process, you really should study it a bit more before pointing out the crimes of other nations. After all you don't want to give the impression that maybe popolfi is right and you really are in your own words 'pig ignorant'.


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  • 288. At 00:29am on 10 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    "British students abandon foreign languages"

    http://www.cafebabel.co.uk/article/35174/english-baccalaureate-languages-drop-schools-gove.html

    "You have to have a very good level of French or German to get through our tests and there are very few Brits who speak a foreign language. I think that's the biggest single issue we face today."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11561644

    I have 2 English cousins. One complains about the French being to arrogant to speak English, but he himself can't have a simple conversation in French even after studying it for years at school. The other one works in Amsterdam and is socially totally restricted to other expats.

    I'm not trying to insult Brits as "ignorant pigs". But there is a reason why they are (relatively) more alienated to their European neighbors.

    How do you want to compete in a globalized market?

    FWIW according to the statistics Irish and Hungarians aren't better.

    (But the French definitely are)

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  • 289. At 01:35am on 10 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    What a complicated, loaded thread. hardly got through.
    First thing that comes to mind is Nik :o
    ))))))), even if I kill half of Europe :o)))))))) my Moskvitch won't go out of the garage in the dacha here, by my side :o))))) I'm afraid.

    It's an awful expensive car to maintain :o)))))) Currently it needs a new ? ??? that? electric huge heaby battery ? to be tucked in in front and I was told (4 years ago when it got out for a short drive around the village the last time :o) some balancing ? as it tends to get off the road and into the ? ditch? that long hole with water? :o) on the right side of the village road. And before it starts, it ? exhaust pipe? ? there goes out of it like clouds of black smoke :o))))) before it disembarks from the elevation inside the garage out down to the ground.

    I'm sure something else requiring fixing will be found if to start it again. Next spring may be :o), if/ when I get more money :o)
    It's a long green heavy crocodile on short wheels, like a heavy trunk.

    But there are clubs of lovers of that thing, and many tune and paint and upgrade their Moskvitch-es to incredible conditions ;o))) Requires tons of money, again.
    I think it's a homely car. It is 21 yrs old by now, born in 1989 :o), and it's got 19 thousand kilometres on its speedometer. I think he likes it better n the comfort of a garage, then out there :o))))) subject to all risks on the road :o))))))

    Number 2 - Margaret, in Moscow Britons go to Irish pubs. Haven't seen any English ones. ? Don't know why. In St. Petersburg our Britons are numbered I guess, a hand full :o)))), and the habits aren't established.

    No 3 - will go sleep.

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  • 290. At 01:43am on 10 Nov 2010, Karen wrote:

    Heard this story today on the News Hour. However can't find an audio link. Help!

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  • 291. At 02:24am on 10 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    No 4 :o)

    Yest was 15 years anniversary of the "Russian jokes" site (a very popular place here), founded and managed by Dimitry Werner.
    It's un-moderated :o) - completely - one of the last places on Earth :o) - and people daily submit there their jokes.

    __________
    Your plans for the future, which do not correspond to your financial, mental and physical abilities are called Dreams.
    :o)


    Her Majesty's Foreign Office is considering to allocate a special budget, for encouraging intrigues, games, competition and compromising materials' sharing between Russian oligarchs, as the compounded run-away Russian capital to Britain has equalled the national turn-over of the Great Britain :o))))))

    Putin has been on the bottom of the Lake Baikal, flew as a pilot in the sky, managed Formula One bolide to 240 km/hr ike Waldemar Schumaher :o)))))))) now it can be only wished that he manages his work, by head, as min, averagely :o))))))))))))

    A war is alright. The main thing is that the Chinese stay fed :o)))))))

    Dimitry Werner's site, in 15 years of its existence, has prevented, at least, three wars, four Russian revolutions, five coup's, two peasant's uprisings ... :o))))))

    Dmitry Werner was asked:
    - "Are you German?"
    - "Nearly..." - carefully replied Werner. :o))))

    Life became better. But uglier.

    In the USA a Toyota Corolla costs 12 thousand dollars.
    In Russia a Lada Kalina costs 12 thousand dollars.
    I'm trying to think about my Government only good things :o)))))))))

    A year of married life counts for a man for two.
    If the children are no less than three - for three.
    If your mother-in-law lives together with you - for four.
    If you wife is blond - for five.
    Thus, it is not a problem to cross a 100-year old border and :o)))))))

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  • 292. At 02:54am on 10 Nov 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:


    From Austrian Radio website:

    Van Rompuy wants small changes to the EU-Treaty*

    But it should not reopen the debate on the nature, the objectives and the architecture of the EU.

    EUpris: * I presume they mean Lisbon Treaty.

    The debate on the "EU" has never stopped on this blog. It is not going to stop. What has been done to us in the UK is an outrage. We will not forget.

    They just want to follow their own morally illegitimate objectives and ignore the will of the people.

    Van Rompuy also made a comment about the currency union requiring a finance union.

    The whole "EU" Rubbish has gone too far already. We don't need even more "EU"-Rubbish.


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  • 293. At 03:01am on 10 Nov 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:



    On the languages thing mentioned above:

    At an FE college, foreign languages almost died out except Spanish. Spanish, it is believed, survived because of holiday homes.

    The Head of Foreign Languages, a supporter of the "EU" , married to a continental told me that he thought the continual argument/rows about the "EU" were to blame.

    The "EU" does not bring us all closer together. It creates additional sources of friction.

    Personally, I believe that languages are taught wrongly and that there should initially be much more emphasis on comprehension rather than on speaking.

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  • 294. At 03:14am on 10 Nov 2010, MaudDib wrote:

    272. Nik

    :o)

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  • 295. At 06:43am on 10 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 296. At 07:34am on 10 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #293. At 03:01am on 10 Nov 2010, EUprisoner209456731

    You are right about comprehension as if you can't understand what is being said you it matters little that you are able to speak a bit. In French Belgium it is especially like that since everywhere there are local dialects intermixed with the wallon local patna so comprehension is the most important thing.

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  • 297. At 07:57am on 10 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 298. At 07:58am on 10 Nov 2010, AnneMarieMcG wrote:

    As a German who has been living in Scotland for the last 20 years, I must agree with what popolfi has said - referring, as Margaret Howard pointed out, to the English rather than the British. Before the Germany-England match in the World Cup, I had the misfortune to listen to a radio sports programme where listeners could phone in to comment. The amount of hatred and abuse aimed at the 'Huns' was incredible, I felt sick to my stomach. It went so far that a German politician officially complained to the Westminster government.

    As for the inability of the British to learn and speak a foreign language, that is something which, through anecdotal evidence, I can also confirm. I work for local government and in my business unit (the legal team) not a single person is able to speak another language. Similarly among my circle of friends. There is, amid the Brits and Americans, a certain type of arrogance which assumes that the whole world has to speak their language - why on earth should they bother to learn somebody else's?

    As for cool_brush_work's comments related to 'thickness' and the German history, comparing British ignorance regarding languages with what happened in Germany shows an amazing amount of ignorance and inability to argue rationally on your part. On one hand we are talking about language and the willingness/ability to learn, and suddenly you start on about how stupid all Germans apparently are because of the events in our history. Well, let us take a moment to disect. First, you throw the entire German population into one category. There was a) a minority of individuals led by an Austrian who committed the atrocities, b) considerable resistance to what happened, and c) considerable fear among the rest of the population that if they opened their mouths, they would end up dead. So rather than one incredibly thick, stupid nation as you portray the Germans, kindly learn to differentiate a little.

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  • 299. At 08:15am on 10 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #287

    Right on cue out comes the Scots woman to chuck in her scurrilous ha'penny worth on the nasty 'english'!

    So, just to keep the record of this latter-day Jean Brodie pupil upto date:

    1) She agrees with the mad greek the 'English' are as big war criminals as Hitler & Stalin.

    2) She agrees with the sage of the Swiss the 'English' are the most bloodthirsty race in history.

    3) She agrees with DTMann the 'English' were as responsible as Germany, Austria for WW1 & WW2.

    4) She agrees with Popolfi's view of the 'English' across Europe as nothing better than degenerates only motivated by football results and alcohol.

    5) She is 'too afraid to go out at night' because of 'English' yobs around her English home and yet claims to have resided in England for 40years.

    6) She finds common cause with any QOT, JorgeG1 etc. in condemning the 'English' for British 'imperialism' in general whilst disassociating her Scots, plus the Welsh & Irish from the 300 year history of the UK.

    7) She has written in support of and led contributions denigrating and deriding the UK Remembrance Services, the British Legion Poppy Day Appeal, the present UK Armed Forces personnel etc.

    8) Whilst backing contributors who have argued Augn Syu Kyi is rightly imprisoned, Jews in Israel are dregs of society etc. she has tried to claim she is a supporter of Democracy.

    9) She agrees with Ellinas the ancient Greeks invented everything from the modern day computer to sliced bread and manned space flight... whereas the 'english' never contributed anything of substance to the World.


    The greek is 'barking' but he has the excuse of limited experience and a mind trapped by a political philosophy based around paranoia.

    Margaret Howard claims to be a Scot, with a Grammar School education and a lady of mature years with considerable experience and knowledge.
    There is absolutely no excuse for this gratuitous disdain of all things 'English' and there is only one word for it: 'Racism'.

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  • 300. At 08:25am on 10 Nov 2010, tedincanada wrote:

    No. 27 wrote: "Keep in mind that the Wahabit propaganda spreading a fundamentalist Islam and radicalizing more and more of the Arabs is spread by Gulf based TV stations which are imitating 100% of the concepts of American televangelists from the bible belt."

    It must have taken a singularly determined dissemination of either anti-American or anti-religious prejudice for the author of the above comment to blame American televangelists for radical Islam. Next I suppose the writer of that comment will be coming up with a new 9/11 conspiracy theory blaming American televangelists for the massacre of thousands in the destruction of the twin towers.

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  • 301. At 08:33am on 10 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #298

    "As a German who has been living in Scotland for the last 20 years, I must agree with what popolfi has said - referring, as Margaret Howard pointed out, to the English rather than the British."

    Then welcome to the ranks of the brainwashed bigot. Congratulations. You'll find good company on this blog.

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  • 302. At 08:44am on 10 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    AnneMarieMcG

    Re #298

    Well, maybe I'm being a little on the 'thickness' side, but if You could kindly point to my contribution where I refer to 'Germany and History' with regard to the debate on this Blog about Language I'd be grateful?

    So far as I am aware, living in Finland, I agree entirely with the general view that the British/English aren't good at languages compared to almost any other European nation.

    What that has to do with the result of a Football match in 1966 and Popolfi's classic stereotyping of all-things-English I have yet to fathom!?

    It is unfortunate that idiots do tend to show themselves at these national sporting occasions, but I can only say from my own expereince at Wembley I stood with English Fans who chanted all the usual jingoistic stuff and were met in equal measure by the Germany fans. Having been to 2 such matches I must add I left the stadium in the company of English & Germany supporters and saw nothing except good-humoured ragging (we 'England' drew one & lost one).

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  • 303. At 08:46am on 10 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #280

    Nik;

    "and above all mass bed bombing with Napalms, often conducted by British pilots too "

    Is this supposed to be a joke?

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  • 304. At 08:49am on 10 Nov 2010, AnneMarieMcG wrote:

    #301 - you have obviously only read the first paragraph of what I have written. I commented on football and, as I'm sure you know, there is an English team and a Scottish team. What that has to do with being brainwashed or bigoted, I really don't know - these are facts.

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  • 305. At 08:53am on 10 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    WHO brought Alcohol to this party? ...

    or is it ...caffeinated beverage(s)?

    Never seen so many posts and so many unmoderated ...I should be careful about saying Anything from this point on...hiccup...

    "Land of my father's pride, land of...."...

    And MaudDib agreeing and/or appreciating Nik's joke(?)!?!??

    THAT was Class, MaudDib and

    Nik, You Are nice:)))

    AND Web Alice ..excellent jokes:))))

    and..."what DemoThreat said"..

    double for me

    over Here, barkeep!

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  • 306. At 08:55am on 10 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    See everyone at Netflix,

    later, Alligator

    Love ya, Alice

    :))))

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  • 307. At 08:57am on 10 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #298. At 07:58am on 10 Nov 2010, AnneMarieMcG

    You live in Scotland yet presume to comment on the English, just how have you had contact with English when your job is in local government in Scotland. Please elucidate?

    As for speaking foreign languages, I have to say that when I worked in Germany in 1996 most ordinary people I met (shops etc) did not speak other languages, only people involved in business or students seemed to speak another language.

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  • 308. At 08:59am on 10 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #304

    "you have obviously only read the first paragraph of what I have written"

    To be honest, I didnt even get that far. I stopped reading at "as Margaret Howard pointed out..."

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  • 309. At 09:00am on 10 Nov 2010, AnneMarieMcG wrote:

    #302 - but you yourself did reply to popolfi's comments about the Brits/English (whatever) and what you perceived the 'thickness' - inability to learn a foreign language - and then attempted to prove that, rather, Germans were thick for having voted for the Nazis, had death camps etc. Thus, you drew the connection between thickness, language etc.

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  • 310. At 09:00am on 10 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Just keep posting and reading..Welcome to this nice blog, AnneMarie.

    This is just a (blog) day of Numerous Opinions

    Yea! Thursday is Veterans Day

    (day off at work, here:)

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  • 311. At 09:07am on 10 Nov 2010, AnneMarieMcG wrote:

    # 307 – hello??? Radio sports programme??? BBC Five Live???

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  • 312. At 09:12am on 10 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Darn, Netflix hasn't been paid up :)

    ...

    (it's my being around all these drunken people,

    therefore, I received a "contact high."

    :)))

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  • 313. At 09:16am on 10 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    AnneMarieMcG

    Re #298 & #309

    I MUST PROTEST!

    NOWHERE on this blog have I referred to "..perceived thickness.." or to, "..Nazis, death camps etc.."

    That is simply not true about any portion of my Comments.

    AnneMarie I would be very grateful if You would produce the QUOTES from my Comments or WITHDRAW those outrageous allegations!

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  • 314. At 09:24am on 10 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #311. At 09:07am on 10 Nov 2010, AnneMarieMcG

    Enough said, you base your experience of the English on a few radio programs, you evidently have all the necessary attributes to be a true Scot and have integrated very well. It's just a shame you had to lose your common sense to do that.

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  • 315. At 09:26am on 10 Nov 2010, AnneMarieMcG wrote:

    # 313 I just checked and I do apologise - I mixed up contributors. It was threnodio_II who made these lovely comments in post # 245. I'm very sorry, my excuse is that I rushed these comments in between work.

    therefore:

    #245 threondio II, my comments were directed at you and you ludicrous statements.

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  • 316. At 09:37am on 10 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #315

    "#245 threondio II, my comments were directed at you and you ludicrous statements. "

    I, for one, look forward to threnodio's reply and actively encourage it.

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  • 317. At 09:45am on 10 Nov 2010, AnneMarieMcG wrote:

    #314 - when commenting on language abilities, I talked about the British, not the English. You might want to re-read my comment. The only time I referred to the English was in relation to football comments. I fail to see what that has to do with being a 'true Scot' - which I am not, I am German, have no intention of giving up my nationality and/or citizenship - or with integrating.

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  • 318. At 09:45am on 10 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    AnneMarieMcG

    Thank You: Apology accepted.

    However, the lack of care in Your original & subsequent contributions does raise doubts about Your right to critique the 'English' in general.
    To make such broad & sweeping generalisations about the 'English' whilst living in Scotland and then to explain Your access to Radio & TV is the basis for much of Your antipathy just widens the credibility gap.

    That said, I do reiterate the 'English are rightly known for their lack of linguistic ability.

    However, that aside, the constant condemnation of England & the English so prevalent among some 'foreign' commentators on this Blog does IMO suggest that Popolfi, MHoward, QOT, DT, the greek etc. suffer an inadequate knowledge-base about their prime target which though not 'pig-ignorant' is for sure more greasy leftovers of byegone eras than the lean meaty Facts of modern day England.

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  • 319. At 09:51am on 10 Nov 2010, AnneMarieMcG wrote:

    # 314 - to add: I may work for a Scottish local government, but roughly half of my colleagues are English, Welsh and Northern Irish. As you so aptly put it - enough said.

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  • 320. At 09:58am on 10 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #317

    "I am German, have no intention of giving up my nationality and/or citizenship"

    Can't bring yourself to swear allegiance to the Queen? My German friend wants to take British nationality but just cant bring herself to do that heh. Neither could I, hence why I'm still a "foreigner" after all these years. Still, its never held me back and I still belong, so what the hell.

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  • 321. At 10:10am on 10 Nov 2010, AnneMarieMcG wrote:

    # 318 - if you re-read my original post, I critiqued the British, not the English on the language issue. My only critique regarding the English was connected to football and as I've pointed out before, there are two teams - English and Scottish, thus, my single comment referring solely to the English.

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  • 322. At 10:36am on 10 Nov 2010, Fergal wrote:

    I don’t know about you but I can’t wait for Europe to become more and more Islamic...lol...I mean seriously....go to nearly every Muslim country in the world...notice how being of any other religion there the how the 2nd class citizen rules apply....It’s funny how Muslims all over the world love when arguing to bring us back to the good old days of how bad us western crusaders are killing peace loving Muslim countries...I think twas Islam that started the crusades....Islam means peace...I’m sure people listened alright when they was getting their heads cut off from morocco to Indonesia in a space of 50 years for not converting...the pen is mightier than the sword...only for signing birthcerts back then...

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  • 323. At 10:37am on 10 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    People still seem to think I'm criticizing the English to insult them.

    Ironically thats a typical English-German misunderstanding, Germans tend to consider open critic as constructive help. They constantly criticize each other openly. (I think it's a Lutheran thing). If I hated the Brits I wouldn't try to "help" them.

    Recently the foreign secretary Westerwelle was very criticized for demanding an English journalist to ask his questions in German during a German press conference. Well I hate Westerwelle but he was right.

    I don't demand the English to learn German but any language for their own good. If you ever struggled to express your thoughts in a foreign language, you will communicate much better with people struggling to speak English.

    It's true that many "simple" Germans aren't so good in English in Germany and that Scandinavians are much better in speaking English but thats not my point.

    And I don't say the English are "stupid", I say the constant anti-European propaganda a la Murdoch/Thatcher and the limitations of education system are going hand in hand. This is damaging your prospects in a globalized market.

    If I was disdaining the English I would stay silent and enjoy an economic competitor dropping out of the contest.

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  • 324. At 10:57am on 10 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    popolfi doth protest...tooo

    often?

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  • 325. At 11:02am on 10 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    AnneMarieMcG

    Further to the 'slanders' or otherwise and to be wholly accurate for us both.

    I've looked back and see at my #248 I thoroughly endorsed ("...spot on x 1,000") ThrenodioII's #245 in which he made a substantial defence of the British/English against Popolfi's, the greek's etc. lamentable accusations.

    I will repeat my support for ThrenodioII's #245.

    I stand by the remarks in #245 which were not based on the 'Language' issue alone, but its inclusion in the wider context of assertions by a number of Blog contributors that the 'English' in particular are historically a degenerate, vicious portion of the British Isles. That opinion as ThrenII was indirectly alluding does indeed border on 'pig ignorant'.

    Perhaps another way to paraphrase his comment at #245 is to use the old adage, '..Let him who is without sin cast the first stone..':

    So, if You want to withdraw Your apology, please do so.

    Cheers.

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  • 326. At 11:17am on 10 Nov 2010, Fergal wrote:

    Anyway...I'm Irish...the English destroyed our language 300 years ago...otherwise I'd be speaking Gaelic and English...thats 2 languages...If Hitler won I'd be speaking Irish, English and German...thats 3...history happens...seen as how the USA, Canada, Ireland, Britian, Australia, New Zealand...the odd caribean island speak english...it being the business language means people in them countries dont really have to learn another...become lazy in our 1st world country ways...might change in the future with the chinese....im sure if Spain Russia or France had of done better I'd be argueing from your side of the line...

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  • 327. At 11:51am on 10 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Popolfi

    Re #323

    We've done all this "..anti-EU.." 'Murdoch' & 'Thatcher' stuff so many times! Still, as You insist on 'helping' the Brits I feel it is encumbent on me to assist You in return.

    To "..help" You in Your understanding of modern English/British here area few "..education" facts because clearly from all You've written the "..system" that informed You about England wasn't upto much:

    62,000,000 UK Citizens with 1 in 11 from a non-English-speaking nation.
    England 50+ million with substantial nationalities permanently in residence as varied as Pakistan, Nigeria, Argentina, Sweden, Canada, India, Kenya, Russia, China, Ghana, Turkey, South Africa, even Germany & Greece...
    1 in 8 English Citizens have parents/grandparents for whom English is NOT their first Language (last Census).
    Believe it or not most were NOT around during PM Thatcher's era; it is generally accepted a huge majority of non-indigenous Citizens DON'T read the Murdoch press (e.g. the largest circulation of the Pakistan & Indian newspapers outside the sub-Continent is in the UK).
    According to recent figures some 11.9 million per-day of the 35.5million indigenous English read a newspaper of any sort (is that a good or bad thing? I don't know).
    England is one of the top5 Nations for use of Hi-Tec media communications, e.g. Internet, mobile phone, blackberry, satellite tv etc.: It would seem English Citizens of whatever origins in general access a variety of 'information' from the 'super-highway'.

    I would suggest You need to whilst considering "...Globalisation" and the decline of a "..competitor" to also consider a good deal more about adjusting Your old fashioned, uninformed views of another Nation.
    My advice: Consider the 2 Germanies of 1979 and how much has changed, and then, consider the UK and a distinct possibility England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland have all moved on a great deal from 1979!

    Try to imagine it is nearing the end of 2010.

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  • 328. At 11:52am on 10 Nov 2010, AnneMarieMcG wrote:

    #325, I have absolutely no intention of causing offence to anybody here; I also have insufficient knowledge of Greek history which is why I will not comment on anything written in that part of the blog. My point is that anybody who openly calls the entire German nation thick and stupid because of something that a relatively small minority led by an Austrian actively committed, deserves to be called up on it and, yes, I take offence. Great offence. It shows an incredibly limited knowledge of German history, as I pointed out in my original post - I am not going into all that again. If that includes you - well, all I can say is if the shoe fits...

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  • 329. At 11:59am on 10 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    > 298. At 07:58am on 10 Nov 2010, AnneMarieMcG wrote:
    > There was
    > a) a minority of individuals led by an Austrian who committed the atrocities,
    > b) considerable resistance to what happened, and
    > c) considerable fear among the rest of the population that if they opened their mouths, they would end up dead.

    Anne Marie I think its not that simple. Many influential people didn't oppose Hitler, because they initially thought he's a useful idiot and afterwards they've been astonished by his great success.

    For instance:

    * The establishment wasn't unhappy when his first steps were to finish off the communists.

    * The military was preparing a coup d'etat in 1938 because they were fearing he would drag them into a war. And then he won the Sudetenland - a region with 90% German speakers - at the conference table without a single shot.

    Just think about how many people were initially joking about Bush Junior being a complete idiot and how willingly they later followed him "to bring democracy to Irak" to understand how easy people are manipulated even today.

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  • 330. At 12:37pm on 10 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    AnneMarieMcG

    Re #328

    Of course there is an enormous cultural debt owed to the German-speaking peoples going back over many centuries. Germany's music, literature, art are among the foremost 'civilising' influences and then there is the Reformation, the development of 19-20-21 Century Science & Technology.

    All of that is on the credit side of a great Peoples and great Nation.

    On the debit side: The remarkable Germany of the above somehow had 42% of its Peoples vote for the National Socialist Workers Party in January 1933; previously many millions of Germans had voted directly for Hitler to become President - - he lost that election to Hindenburg, but the dye was cast - - the Nazi Party did benefit from the Worldwide recession October 1929 onwards, but to suggest it did so without the consent of many millions of Germans is to 'revise' & deliberately alter History's facts. It is there in the use of the 'Austrian' for Herr Hitler when all the World knows in Factual reality he served in a Bavarian regiment of the German Army in WW1 and was a resident of Germany for practically all his adult life - - did he 'integrate'? - - well, it would seem he did enough to be appointed Germany's Chancellor of a Coalition Government in 1933 with only 2 other Nazi Cabinet Ministers and yet, within a year the Communists, 3rd largest Political Party were banned, and an Enabling Act had given Chancellor Hitler 4 Years of indiluted authority & power.

    Well, let's not rehearse the whole story...

    Of course modern day Germany MUST NOT be judged on such portions of the past, but on its overall contribution and its highly sophisticated, civilised & humanitarian evolution since those dark years.

    Then again, isn't that all we would ask of critics of Britain/England. You chimed in to have-a-go at the English about Language, but later joined in an attack on ThrenodioII for a much wider set of issues.
    He was in #245 reacting to a series of lamentably out-dated attacks upon the image of Britain/England which sought to stereotype it as somehow caught in a 'past' life that is extremely remote to almost all living in the modern UK (& only the BNP seek to still dredge up & exploit as absurdly 'great').


    It is understandable though regrettable if You 'take offence' about Germany, but how is it the English must be expected not to be concerned by often over-simplified, regularly unsubstantiated & at times deliberate derogatory descriptions of England such as those propounded by Margaret Howard, QOT, Polpolfi, the mad greek etc.?
    AnneMarie, why should any self-respecting German or Englishman allow such nonsense to go unchallenged?

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  • 331. At 12:59pm on 10 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    > 327. At 11:51am on 10 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
    > Try to imagine it is nearing the end of 2010.

    The facts:

    UK: Industry comprises only 18% of the economy, but this is significantly bolstered by North Sea oil. Services including banks, insurance and retail, are three-quarters of output. Construction is 6%.

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  • 332. At 1:11pm on 10 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Popolfi

    Re #329

    You see we have to be very cautious about this 'revisionist' History agenda.

    It is a Fact some 3.2million German-speaking peoples were obliged to live within the border of the new Czechoslovakia state following the terms of the Treaty of St.Germain.
    90% of those German-speakers did reside in the western border region commonly known a the Sudetenland.
    The new Czechoslovakia had a total population of 13.8million.

    On the face of it 'self-determination' was an inevitable political development for that 'minority' German population during the 1920s-30s.

    Of course, we do need to keep to the facts:

    1) That German population had NEVER been a part of Germany.
    2) That German population were a part of the defunct Austro-Hungarian Empire.
    3) That '90%' German-speaking peoples principally occupied 2 key aras of the Sudetenland region with the majority of them in Bohemia.
    4) There were significant areas of the Sudetenland region with less than 30% German-speaking peoples.
    5) A significant % of Sudeten Germans had seen the Anschluss - - Nazi Germany annexation of Austria - - and had formed political groups opposed to a similar 'unification', preferring an independent/autonomous Sudeten German.
    It is important to recall when the Nazis did take over it was not only non-German-speakers who found themselves being incarcerated for disliking the new political-geography.
    6) When Hitler abetted by Mussolini persuaded Chamberlain & Daladier to back-down & abandon Czech Benes they not only accepted the 90% German-speakers right to self-determination, but betrayed large 'majority' populations of the Sudetenland who were not German-speaking
    7) That abandonment of the Czech's cause signalled the collapse of any prospect of longterm peace in 'eatern' Europe as an emboldened Third Reich salivated over the Polish Corridor and considered the British & French as bound to bottle-it given any new international initiative by Herr Hitler.
    8) And, by-the-by, Chancellor Hitler was only mildly interested in the Sudeten Germans - - his goal and achievement was to get Nazi hands on the very large Czech armaments industry & various other manufacturers (e.g. ball-bearings) without firing a shot.

    You see how easy it is to just chuck in "..90% german-speaking.. Sudetenland.." and assume that'll be okay because it was all along time ago!?

    It's a bit like if someone were to come on this Blog and suggest that because England scored the 4th goal in 1966 it doesn't really matter about the disputed 3rd when as every German Football fan knows that is precisely the opposite of the Fact-of-the-matter.
    With the benefit of hindsight History we can more-or-less be sure the 3rd goal never-was: It is about the same with the time-worn 'Sudetenland' & its German-speaking population - - they were there alright & in large numbers - - but, the 'whole Sudetenland' they never-were.

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  • 333. At 1:20pm on 10 Nov 2010, Fergal wrote:

    I think Thilo Sarrazin is right...maybe if that Austrian chap Haider was voted in now instead of a few years back Austria wouldn't of had the threat of sanctions as it did then....I mean the Dutch were going to vote in the same type of chap until he died too...maybe he was killed cause he was gay and for Islam that’s just not playing ball.......of courses he's dead now...tis a growing trend I’m afraid...see it everywhere in all the countries...when in Rome do what the Romans do...we do when in Muslim countries...for the women out there...try sunbathing in nearly any Muslim country...ahhh, you have to put on sun factor burka...and not only that...they want to impose sun factor burka in the west....now as for France with that terrible terrible thing they did to them poor unfortunate hard working Romanic gypsies...what a crime...there they are minding their own business...never steal....never rob...never beg....never claiming the dole...did I say never steal ?....being kicked out of France with imagery as seen on TV with what were some calling it...tantamount to another world war 2 holocaust...yep...they were tortured gassed...put on trains....all their belongings taken...women raped...it was just awful...oh sorry.....didn't happen....well they were put on trains you know....well its nearly the same according to some...I’d say 70 to 80 % of working class people feel the way I do. In real life I’ve met maybe 1 in 20 that disagree....that’s real life...not stuck up intellectual internet cyber bullies that spend 24/7 on the pc cause they are afraid to walk down the streets at night and be attacked or robbed by the people they are defending...ever met a gypsy with a tax paying job ? I met one 11 years ago whilst working in Intel...1 out of the hundreds I’ve seen...even he hated his own people. He did have a nice set of gold teeth. One would almost think i sound raciest....but i have been with an asian, black, jewish and other women from many different nationalities...just showing off there...I do likes me women ;)

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  • 334. At 1:20pm on 10 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Buzet: "I once helped a group of desperate Scottish tourists who were waiting for 2 hours sitting in front of a French office, with a big sign "de 9:00 a 17:00 heures sauf samedi". ... Needles to say it was Saturday."






    There was also a movie about a Greek hooker called "Never on Sunday"

    [I won't mention a name of the actress in the leading role, since she's later become a Greek minister of culture]

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  • 335. At 1:33pm on 10 Nov 2010, bahadirciftci wrote:

    I see that this debate is going around Muslim and Christian Integration. Some of the comments mention Muslim are not able to integrate easily. In my opinion the people who believes Muslims are not able to integrate should also pay attention to a very important fact. Most of these Muslim migrants were at the very bottom of their society in terms of education etc. before they migrated. That's the nature of immigration. No one with good education and a good job would leave his/her native country. Certainly there are exceptions but these are very rare.

    European policy makers should criticize themselves about the integration policies of the past! Even now we are debating about integration of
    Muslims.

    Now it is little late and integration train is about to leave the station. Both sides of the debate should ask some important questions to themselves and each other to reach a healthy solution of the debate.

    Christians and Non believers Should ask:
    Have we provide enough space to these people to practice their religion?
    Are we ready to see more mosques around us?
    Have we done enough to understand Muslims in Eu?
    Is there a Muslimfobia in EU?
    Why there is no Muslim state in the EU?

    Muslim immigrants should ask:
    What we have done for better integration?
    What we should have done for better integration?
    From now on what we can do for faster and better integration?

    FYI: Some of commentators gave examples from US and Canada. I think they are not aware of the debates of Mosque in NY and Quran burning.

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  • 336. At 1:33pm on 10 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Popolfi

    Re #331

    And Your point being: What connection is there to Your stereotyping of England via English football fans in that basic Economic assessment?

    Or, is it as I suspect, You object & are irked by the fact a lot of English/Britons would appear to be unconvinced of the merits of the Paris-Brussels-Berlin hegemony: And, these Isles' refusal to quite bend-the-knee so far as the rest of mainland has done to supra-national EUrope is a thorn in its side and a threat to its survival!?

    I mean, just why are so many 'pro-EU' so desparate to do-down, sling mud at the English-British: If the Politics, Economics, Society are all in the dreadful condition You appear to believe what is it makes You all so afraid of the UK?

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  • 337. At 1:44pm on 10 Nov 2010, AnneMarieMcG wrote:

    #330, I have most certainly not joined in on an attack on threnodio. insufficient knowledge of Greek history which is why I will not comment on anything written in that part of the blog. My point is that anybody who openly calls the entire German nation thick and stupid because of something that a relatively small minority actively committed, deserves to be called up on it and, yes, I take offence. Great offence. It shows an incredibly limited knowledge of German history, as I pointed out in my original post - I am not going into all that again. You wrote: "to suggest it did so without the consent of many millions of Germans is to 'revise' & deliberately alter History's facts." I never denied that, but the fact is that the overwhelming majority of the German people do not have the ability to see into the future - most of us are not clairvoyant. Therefore voting for the Nazi party did by no means endorse the death camps etc. - threnodio has thrown everything into one mix and drew the conclusion that ergo, the entire German nation is thick. THAT was what I objected to and nothing else.

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  • 338. At 1:47pm on 10 Nov 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100063147/eu-auditors-finally-approve-budget/

    "EU auditors finally approve budget
    ...
    Nah, only joking.
    For the sixteenth year in a row, the EU budget has been found to be riddled with errors and fraud. Unsurprisingly, it has ceased to be news."

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  • 339. At 1:49pm on 10 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    > 332. At 1:11pm on 10 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    I'm not a revisionist, I'm explaining why Hitler was gaining popularity in 1938. I don't care if German-speakers live in 3 or 15 different countries as long it's as democratic as it's now in the EU.

    And I'm not going to quarrel about your population stats, you might want to supply us with the according numbers for Northern-Ireland and their perception by Britons.

    Or about how the American population thought about annexing California or Texas.

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  • 340. At 1:50pm on 10 Nov 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100062679/eu-disciplinary-code-keep-a-brothel-and-be-demoted-criticise-the-euro-and-be-dismissed/

    "EU disciplinary code: keep a brothel and be demoted, criticise the euro and be dismissed"

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  • 341. At 1:56pm on 10 Nov 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100062986/douglas-carswell-wants-to-summon-diplomats-to-explain-themselves-to-parliament/

    "There is some disagreement over whether the EU’s rules on economic governance will affect the United Kingdom. British officials believe they won’t; the EU believes they will."

    EUpris: So based on that, they have agreed to something but cannot agree as to what!

    And this lot want to run the British economy"!


    GET YOUR MONEY AND PROPERTY OUT OF THE "EU"!

    IT CAN ONLY GET WORSE!!


    It did seem possible to me that Cameron might be better than Blair on the "EU".

    Either way, he is worse than useless.


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  • 342. At 2:01pm on 10 Nov 2010, bahadirciftci wrote:

    280. At 10:46pm on 09 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    I found your comment really entertaining and disregards the facts! But that is normal because obviously when you are complaining about the money that goes to Northern Cyprus you are not aware of the money that goes the Greece from other EU members!
    And I can also prove that you are wrong about who massacred who but that has nothing to do with this debate like your whole comment!

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  • 343. At 2:18pm on 10 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    > 336. At 1:33pm on 10 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
    > You object & are irked by the fact a lot of English/Britons would appear to be
    > unconvinced of the merits of the Paris-Brussels-Berlin hegemony:

    I'm only afraid of the UK if the combined cityboys of London and Wallstreet ruin worlds economy.

    But hei, if you don't like the EU, why don't you quit?

    I'm eager to see how your banking and construction sector will flourish and how multi-national firms resettling to Dublin and Amsterdam will leave enough space for a new industrial boom. (...SCNR)

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  • 344. At 2:28pm on 10 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    AMMcG

    Re #337

    Fair point.

    Same as mine that bashing all the 'English' for the sake of it is offensive.

    Not that I expect it will stop the nay-sayers because some of them have a perspective the English are at fault on every matter irrespective of whether they were even involved!

    Anyway, cheers for the discussion. Don't be shy to put Your views out - - IMO, we can all argue & none of us is wholly right/wrong, just differing/bickering - - anyway, nobody's listening (leastways none of that lot in Westminster Parliament or Brussels).

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  • 345. At 2:33pm on 10 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    Ok enough, I'm better off now.

    This discussion isn't anymore about integration problems and ensuring a modern democratic culture.

    And I don't think my English is good enough to avoid further misunderstandings.

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  • 346. At 2:38pm on 10 Nov 2010, AnneMarieMcG wrote:

    # 344 - I just hope that you're not still claiming that I've been bashing all the English - I commented that most British (NOT English) do not speak a foreign language.

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  • 347. At 2:45pm on 10 Nov 2010, AnneMarieMcG wrote:

    # 345, actually, a thought to show that I'm most certainly not regularly engaged in 'English-bashing'. I came over here to do a Masters Degree and the courses were pretty international. There was, however, a number of foreign students, all of them non-European, who had an incredibly limited knowledge of the English language. UK students grumbled about the fact that their own essays and dissertations were marked down for spelling and grammar mistakes, but the essays and dissertations of these foreign students were not. I grumbled along, as I'd made the effort to become as fluent in English as possible before coming here to study.

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  • 348. At 2:59pm on 10 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Unveiling "Energy 2020", Energy Commissioner Guenther Oettinger called for investment of 1tn euros (£0.9tn, $1.3tn) to "Europeanise energy policy".

    Money would come from taxpayers and energy companies themselves.

    The EU hopes a shared network will protect individual member states from disputes with suppliers such as Russia.

    In January 2009, several EU states saw imports of Russian gas via Ukraine cut for up to three weeks.

    Correspondents note that the plan for a shared network is nothing new, but it is significant that this has been endorsed by Mr Oettinger, a German, as his country previously lobbied hard to weaken legislation.

    Recent Commission documents show EU governments are failing to develop the full potential of their renewable energy resources and will fall halfway short of an agreed EU goal of improving energy efficiency by 20% by 2020. (BBC)


    It's nice that Germans begin to see the light.

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  • 349. At 3:03pm on 10 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Popolfi

    Re #339

    Well, as You asked:

    Northern Ireland population in 2009 (official UK-Stormont estimate):


    1,759,000 Citizens.

    I.e. 3.2% of the total UK Population & approx 30% of the island of Ireland population.

    45.60% classified as Protestant; approx 835,000.
    40.30% classified as Roman Catholic; 725,000.
    Another 190,000+ are unaccounted for in Faith terms.

    Quite what this all means for the future seems IMO to be largely determined by the perverse nature of many of a Northern Irish mind wherein 'History' & 'Faith' have been subverted to Sectarian 'mafia' style ganglands with each dominating whole or portions of the 6 Counties.

    Thus, e.g. we have 'Derry' (Catholic/Nationalist/Republican) also known as 'Londonderry' (Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist) as a city of approx 85,000 Citizens of whom the 'minority' Protestants live almost entirely one-side of the River Foyle and the 'majority' Catholics the other side!

    Having experienced Northern Ireland 3 times in the 1970s whilst in the UK armed forces I can only say, though I wish it were otherwise, in all honesty 'a plague on all their houses'!
    I know, it's a reprehensible view, but the internecine ignorance, prejudice & vile callousness I came across during the 'Troubles' just left me wondering how it was the rest of the British Isles were in 1970s Britain and most of them were struggling to emerge from 1400!

    Don't get me wrong: I'm quite sure the British Army (& probably my Paras more than most) did very little of note to improve the situation. I'm also sure the present N.Ireland leadership that cobbled together their Easter Peace Accord are biding their time until the opportunity for the next bout of sectarian lunacy. Those sort don't just give up because they've a warm seat under them - - there's far too many vested criminal interests at stake - - I wouldn't trust anyone in Stormont beyond its ante-chamber (& I've been there, it's very small). PMs Major & Blair did their best getting the rest of the British off-the-hook for the time-being, but the Irish are warming up again for another go - - I pray this time the UK has the good Political sense to step away & dump the whole mess on Dublin because for sure that lot were passing the hat round for weapons fund every other day during the Troubles and deserve all they've got coming.


    Oooops! Letting my feelings get the better of me: Oh well, as they say, that's life (& death)!

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  • 350. At 3:21pm on 10 Nov 2010, Fergal wrote:

    ahhhh...one forgets the reason why northern Ireland came from being 100% catholic....one forgets the Scottish plantations....hey...come over here if your protestant...lots of free land to offer ya...what’s that you say...someone living there you say...no worries...we will just kick them off the land...there ya go...key to a lovely new home...twas a hanging offence to speak Irish hear when zee brits ruled...bye bye language...and the British soldiers wonder why them dam unruly Irish complain...let’s not forget the famine....lots of food exported but the kind English made us give it all away to pay our rent...but did lets us eat the spud...only so much ya can do with a spud...boiled spud...chips...spud and chips...so kind of zee brits...and then we have the audacity to complain....shame on us...

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  • 351. At 3:24pm on 10 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 352. At 3:53pm on 10 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #284 - quietoaktree

    Not really. I was defending my right to be a good European notwithstanding that I am not a good (or any other kind of) Christian. I have had the privilege to share much of my life with someone who was a believer. The conundrum (if there was one) was solved by each of us acknowledging and respecting the right of the other to believe whatever our faith systems allowed. This was possible under one roof so why not within a continent?

    There were arguments about the distribution of income, the priorities of expenditure, social engagements - just as there are in nations and international organisations. It is inevitable and predictable.

    The problem arises when belief systems either impinge or or are hijacked by the politically motivated. There is nothing inherently wrong with people believing that artificial birth control is wrong. It becomes a problem only when they tell me that I may not use it. There is nothing wrong with people thinking that alcohol is the work of the devil. There is something very wrong if they believe it gives them the right to bomb my local. There is nothing wrong with believing that Allah is great, there is everything wrong with believing that any other model is fundamentally flawed.

    So my belief in the separation of state and church has nothing to do with interfering in the belief systems of others. It is founded absolutely on the conviction that, until such time as I am proved otherwise, I am as fundamentally as decent a human being as any one else and nobody has the right to gainsay that simply because of what I believe. Faith may be terribly important to people on an individual basis but is utterly irrelevant to good governance.

    I conclude, to bring several different ideas in this thread together, that:-

    1. To use religion or any other form of identity such as race, colour, sex, orientation or physical attribute is pure scapegoating unless there is a consideration outside of that which makes it relevant (example: anyone living unlawfully in ramshackle settlements is an issue, that some of them are Roma is not).

    2. To use any of the above to wage war on the rest of society, regardless of what they believe, and especially from the indefensible position of doing so dressed as and pretending to be civilians is totally unacceptable regardless of the righteousness of the cause and the desirability of the outcome.

    3. It is absolutely necessary to screen out the irrelevant it you are going to address the fundamental questions (example: the use of the word 'God' in the British national anthem which may offend the politically correct and give ammunition to those who wish to indulge in brick batting but is actually harmless and inoffensive and, therefore, simply a distraction).

    4. We cannot and must not tolerate politicians drifting on the tide of public opinion and jumping on the bandwagon whenever the opportunity presents itself. Multiculturalism may have failed but it has not done so suddenly. It was either a failed concept in the first place or it still has potential. It cannot suddenly go wrong because we find ourselves in need of a Euro or two.

    Look at it logically. 'We are essentially a Christian society' sounds harmless enough until you add the riders. And 'we all know that the Jews killed Jesus', 'all Muslims are potential bombers', 'black people are statistically less intelligent', 'all gypsies are thieves'. This is the top of a slippery slope and the ride gets faster the further you sink.

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  • 353. At 4:04pm on 10 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #350

    All we need now is a Welshman complaining about the English and their second homes, and stopping them from speaking Welsh and we've got the full set.

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  • 354. At 4:10pm on 10 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    #299 cool_brush_work

    --✄-- 9) She agrees with Ellinas the ancient Greeks invented everything from the modern day computer to sliced bread and manned space flight...whereas the 'english' never contributed anything of substance to the World. --✄--

    I see I'm at the bottom of your enemies list. Should i take that as a compliment?

    So did i actually said that the ancient Greeks invented everything from the modern day computer?

    \|||/
    (o_o) I'm scocked :)))))))))

    Don't worry i won't ask for a desperate Apology or WITHDRAW from those outrageous allegations!...(◕‿◕)...just go and read again my very first references to that subject

    the Antikythera mechanism is the most ancient mechanical computer but there is no evidence that this mechanism was at the base of the other earlier inventions

    and that

    A computer is a programmable machine that receives input, stores and manipulates data, and provides output in a useful format and i mostly concentrate to the computer point of view

    and here i mention some

    mechanical & hydraulic computing paradigms by Greek heron of Alexandria

    as well my conclusion here

    If you think of a computer as something that has a keyboard and a screen it's only your personal limit not mine.

    BUT I HAVE FOR YOU A LITTLE LAST SURPRISE

    [as the proverb says: since the CBW mountain won't come to Ellinas, Ellinas will have to go to the CBW mountain]

    So did Heron of Alexandria is being studied at university as far it concerns computer & computing? Take a look at this Massachusetts Institute of Technology course! Jump introductions, go to minute 16:00 and start seeing the first 10 minutes

    Lec 1 | MIT 6.00 Introduction to Computer Science and Programming, Fall 2008

    So! As i never said that Greeks invented everything from the modern day computer to sliced bread and manned space flight...i do instead say that where Greeks haven't invented things they sure thought about them and were the greatest, unique, basis inspiration for the whole western civilization.

    Let's see a simple example of that "Greek manned space flight"...no...i will not speak about Icarus :)))) or the atomic theory of Democritus etc. but of some Lucian's works.

    [as always one ancient Greek is enough for describing the 360° modern knowledge]

    True History or True Story: He anticipated "modern" fictional themes like voyages to the moon, sun and Venus, extraterrestrial life and wars between planets, more than a millennium before Jules Verne and H. G. Wells. His novel is widely regarded as an early, if not the earliest science fiction work.

    Dialogues of the Dead: 30 miniature dialogues set in the Underworld. Among the most famous of Lucian's works.

    Dialogues of the Gods: 25 miniature dialogues mocking the Homeric conception of the Greek gods.

    ...can't see more similarities as compared to Dante's divina commedia

    Timon the Misanthrope: A dialogue involving Timon of Athens. Lucian's work influenced the play by Shakespeare (The Life of Timon of Athens is a play by William Shakespeare)

    The Lover of Lies, or The Doubter: A collection of tall tales, including the story of the Sorcerer's Apprentice influenced Goethe's write (Goethe, Der Zauberlehrling, written in 1797)

    slander: An essay against believing slander too readily. Lucian's description of a painting by Apelles influenced Italian Renaissance painter Botticelli

    (The Calumny of Apelles: a tempera painting based on the description of a painting by Apelles, completed in 1494. It is on display in the Uffizi in Florence.)

    Lucius or The Ass: The same story is told at greater length in the Golden Ass by Apuleius. (precursor to the literary genre of the episodic picaresque novel, in which Quevedo, Rabelais, Boccaccio, Cervantes, Voltaire, Defoe and many others have followed)


    N.B. In 2002, Shakespeare's Globe theater rehearsed for the first time the drama The Golden Ass or the Curious Man (starring Mark Rylance as Lucius) written by Peter Oswald after Apuleius novel, while performing A Midsummer Night's Dream during the same season. This shows how Shakespeare used ancient literature as a source for his comedy (character of Nick Bottom in Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream head being transformed into that of an ass)

    I can go on forever here but as the same Lucian wrote at the end of his "Praising a Fly" paradoxical encomium work of such an insect...


    ( Let's don't make the Greek flies look like elephants )
    --------------------------------------------------
                                                 ☼
              /\   ___   /\                ☼
           //    \/    \/    \\      ☼
         ((        O O        ))
           \\  /           \  //
             \/   |   |    \/
              |   |   |   |
              |   |   |   |
              |     o     |
              |  |     |  |
              |m|     |m|

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  • 355. At 4:14pm on 10 Nov 2010, Mathiasen wrote:

    It has been one of Sarrazin’s allegations that German history and culture have originated without influence from Islam. He is repeating this position in the interview that can be seen here in this blog.

    In its edition from the 4th November Die Zeit published an article with the headline “Coaching Sarrazin” written by Eberhard Straub. In this Straub mention the rich influence from the Arab world and Islam on Europe. Concerning Germany he mentions that the most popular German opera, Mozart’s The Magic Flute, just like the foundation of the European novel through Cervantes’ “Don Quijote” is based on an Egyptian history by Heliodor called “Ethiopia”. Let me just add to this that other European composers for instance Verdi, Ravel, and Rimsky-Korsakov also returned to the Arab and oriental world in their music.

    Of course, Straub also mentions the Arab culture in Spain and the influence it has had on Europe. The modern idea of tolerance, Straub writes, was born in Toledo, where Jews, Christian and Muslim lived together. Right, and the reason was that a new sovereign, Alphonso 6th, impersonated this tolerance. It would - perhaps - go too far to say that modern European scholarly studies were born in Toledo, but not very far from the fact. Toledo became Christian in 1085. Thanks to Alphonso Christian in Toledo were able through the Jewish and Arab neighbours to relearn about Arab science, more precisely to save Arab science for an emerging European science, and if Toledo was not the place of birth for this, it is indeed one of the most important places thanks to the erudite Arabs there.

    We should of course not expect Sarrazin to mention such things or any effect of this coaching. It only disturbs his project.

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  • 356. At 4:19pm on 10 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #337 - AnneMarieMcG

    As somebody who has something resembling a life, I do not enjoy the luxury or the boredom factor of being able to follow this blog post by post and was a bit surprised to find that there is an attack on me.

    However, just for the sake of clarity, let me be clear. I have spent a great deal of time in Germany, speak the language and have nothing but the highest regard for the culture, art, technical achievements and other matters of German interest. I have repeatedly posted on this blog in the past that a nation that can accept its history, deal with it and move on to become an example of how a modern democratic society should be run deserves nothing but the highest praise.

    The comments to which you took such exception were an understandably angry reaction to what was beginning to look like a concerted attack on the country of my birth - I no longer live there. If I have understood you correctly, it is OK for a bunch of Greeks, Turks, Scots, Americans and anyone else who wants to join in the fun to scramble through Wikipedia until they find something which, with a bit of judicious editing, can be used to brand the British as a bunch of thugs but heaven help anyone who mentions the holocaust.

    Look back across this thread and ask yourself whether I started this. I regard it as pointless, immature and anachronistic but I am damned if I will let the rest of the world grovel around in my gutter and not join in when necessary.

    The sooner this skin crawling exercise in one-upmanship ends, the better. But until it does, I reserve the right to to play as dirty as anyone else. I did not write the rules either.

    How many languages would you like this in? Greetings from central Europe.

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  • 357. At 4:39pm on 10 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #350

    No "..one.." doesn't forget any of it. There's much that was wholly wrong and many faults on all 'sides'. The UK Labour Government with its massive majority & indeed successive UK Governments of the 2nd half of the 20th Century should have dealt with all the blatant sectarian inequality & bigotry as soon as WW2 was over.

    One just wonders how in the last third of the 20th Century bigots using extortion, drug-dealing, torture etc. can be allowed to carry on like that and have the nerve to proclaim themslves 'christian' & 'civilised' anymore than the nutters from al Quada have any semblance of 'Islam' & 'decency' in their 21st Century character!?

    Yes, there is History behind it all: The UK has much to answer for in that respect, but let's not have any doubts - - in my experience for every '1' political-minded terrorist of Nationalist or Unionist 'cause' in N.Ire. - - there were 19 more violent criminals who ruthlessly exploited men, women & children from any 'side' for their own ill-gotten gain.
    While I'm at it: Let us not 'forget' the average dumb irish-American who for years contributed dollars to 'get the Brits out' of Ireland often contributing to both 'sides' completely unaware of 2 Irelands never mind 2 faiths or the reality of sickening tribal gang-warfare!


    'scottish plantations'!
    'hanging offence' to speak Irish'!
    'spud' famine!'

    Please!

    How many more years is this drivel going to be churned out before the average Irish person wakes up to the Fact that protestant planting was 200 to 300 years ago, the famine was 160+ years ago and the language ban a law disappeared the late 19th Century!?

    Any chance the average Irish could stop complaining about the past and make an effort to join the rest of us in the present & future?

    Mind You, as a demonstration of failed 'integration' of an 'immigrant' community it provides all sorts of civic lessons and certainly doesn't bode well for the rest of EUrope today.

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  • 358. At 4:54pm on 10 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #355 - Mathiasen

    Absolutely correct but is it not interesting to note that nationalism in its familiar manifestation is a relatively new phenomenon. While the Hohenzollerns, Hapsburgs, Bourbons, Hanovarians and - briefly - Bonaparts were busy playing power politics with the fortunes and blood of their people, the more civilised were equally being good Europeans. During the war of the First Coalition in 1795, Haydn was still perfectly able to find himself in London. In 1764, notwithstanding the War of Austrian Succession, it was perfectly possible for Leopold Mozart to take his precocious child to London. In - I think from memory, 1806 - Beethoven crossed the French Austrian line to take his annual holiday in Heiligenstadt.

    The idea that borders across which people, ideas and art could not cross is very new. I find it interesting that, in the internet age, there is a return to this thinking. The one thing borders cannot stop is the movement of ideas and information. That, more than anything else, is what brought down the Iron Curtain.

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  • 359. At 5:08pm on 10 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #354

    Snigger... again only to be honest, this time, I didn't try to stop it all!

    Ellinas, sorry, but You got hold of the wrong end of the stick (again): Look, apologies to You if You're annoyed, I was not really claiming any of that stuff was by You only that MargaretH in her desperation to have-a-go at the 'English' was willing to back any absurdity.

    Ellinas, I assure You when I think You're wrong or just being silly I will always tell You direct. You were an addendum to my charge on MH.

    BTW, the list of 'origins' was very impressive: A tad inexplicable, but then that seems to be Your forte, bringing in abstruse comments.

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  • 360. At 5:16pm on 10 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #357 - cool_brush_work

    It is also a classic example of politically motivated people hijacking religion to promote an entirely separate agenda.

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  • 361. At 5:37pm on 10 Nov 2010, Mathiasen wrote:

    #358. At 4:54pm on 10 Nov 2010, threnodio_II
    The name of the evil is liberal-nationalism, which, as you will know, is not an invention of that nobility, who ruled in the period you mention.

    I asked someone a question, but never received any answer. Let me therefore in our connection mention some groups that alway has been in favour of immigration: The nobility, the artists, and the scientists. There are other of course, but still today they benefit from immigration, and are therefore among those in favour of it.

    I am not in favour of the thesis "history repeats itself", but there are of course similarities between the period you mention and the effort of European integration today, which leads to the blurring of borders and creation of groups of interests acroos borders.
    Our opponent is nationalism in various disguises.

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  • 362. At 6:00pm on 10 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #361 - Mathiasen

    I entirely agree.

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  • 363. At 6:53pm on 10 Nov 2010, ptsa wrote:

    In other news today:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11725311

    The ambassador of Turkey (the cradle of tolerance and multi-culturalism within their borders) in Austria caused a spat when he stated that Austrians are intolerant and racist towards the Turks in Austria.

    Funny how, if this situation was spinned around, if the Austrian ambassador to Turkey made such comments in Turkey, he would have landed in jail or in deep trouble for insulting Turkishness. I guess insulting other countries and their citizens is totally OK, especially when they have welcomed hundreds of thousands of your people.

    Hmmm, Turks, Vienna, history has a way of repeating itself maybe and this is what is bothering the Turkish Ambassador?

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  • 364. At 7:29pm on 10 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Ellinas,

    your posts are endearingly and thoughtfully produced

    so very computer talented!

    :)))

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  • 365. At 7:41pm on 10 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    #363 ptsa

    As i said to my #42 post Germans or Austrians can debate over immigration over and over but they well know that the problem has only one culprit. The Turk immigrants. The other Muslim immigrants in Germany are not so much, so nationalists and organized like the Turks...

    ...and mostly can't be defended by their so weak Muslim nations unlike Turkey.

    and the above link you gave is a small "antipasto" of that.

    After the abolishment for visas for Albanian and Bosnians citizens the yesterday headline of the Turkish Millyiet newspaper came out whith this article

    Your turn George! (electronic version of this article)

    of course they feel it!...That only the today economically week Greeks keep them the door closed from the complete abolition of border controls between Schengen states and them.

    [The more weak Greece is the more you Europeans will suffer...Take it or leave it]

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  • 366. At 7:51pm on 10 Nov 2010, democracythreat wrote:

    As much as nationalism is a curse, I wonder what we make of feudalism.

    I have often wondered if I sound like a complete crank on this blog when I point out that the EU was set up by the titled aristocracy of Europe, who were all interrelated family members, in order to circumvent the limited democratic processes which threatened Europe after American occupation following the second world war.

    Thankfully, the BBC has reported on a recent case by the ECJ, and it shows some news not many will understand.

    Here is the link:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11724893

    Now in order to understand why this news report is so important, you need to do three things.

    1. Goggle or Bing the EU budget and see how much of EU money has been spent on CAP. You may note that for all the hoo hah and the "issues" in the media, the EU appears to exist in order to take money from member states and distribute it via CAP. This is the overwhelming vast majority of the EU money, ever since it began.

    2. Research WHO, exactly, was invited to form the first European council. Learn their titles, and their place in the European aristocracy. Understand why these people were chosen, and understand that they chose themselves. Note that Barons and Dukes from all over Europe were invited to attend by the titled aristocracy from the victorious powers in WW2.

    3. Read this BBC article, and understand that this "ECJ" is nothing more than a group of lawyers hand picked by the families who receive the CAP funds. I mean, you need to follow the money and the chronology of the evolutions EU institutions here, very closely indeed. The EU was set up by the families who would receive this CAP money, because they owned the farming land of Europe. These same people set up the ECJ. These same people fund the two party system across Europe, and they have prompted their parties to hand over not only money but judicial power to their pet court. And now, their pet court, which is beholden TO NO DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTION WHATSOEVER AND WHICH CLAIMS TO BE THE HIGHEST RANKING LEGAL AUTHORITY IN EUROPE, has said that ordinary citizens may not know where CAP money goes.

    This is Europe NOW. This is the EU.

    The EU is not simply undemocratic. It is positively feudal.

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  • 367. At 8:08pm on 10 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #365 - Ellinas

    This nasty little squabble in the bottom right hand corner of Europe is getting so tiresome - especially when the only thing on which you can agree is that it is Britain's fault. You join NATO and then point guns at each other, one joins the EU, the other wants to come into the yard but put you in the same playpen together and all you are interested in is beating hell out of each other and blaming someone else. Now either grow up and join he big boys or slink off and slug it out in the yard but stop bitching.

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  • 368. At 8:15pm on 10 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    354 Ellinas
    I had forgotten the contribution ancient Greece made towards modern European literature. However here is a (paraphrased) version of Shakespeare's Sonnet 59:
    "If there is nothing new under the sun, but that which
    Has been before, how are our brains cheated,
    Which, toiling to create something new, mistakenly
    Brings forth something that already exists
    O, that history could go back
    Even five hundred years
    To show me your picture in some old book,
    At any time since thought was first put down in writing!
    That I might see what an earlier time would say
    To this wonderful beauty of your frame (mind, body, and soul);
    Whether we are improved or they were better,
    Or whether the cycle of years has yielded no better results.
    O, I am sure of this, the wits [talented men] of former times
    Have given praise to much worse subjects than this."

    And of course even this wasn't original then:

    Ecclesiastes 1.9: "The thing that hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done; and there is no new thing under the sun."
    I don't think there is a country today whose contribution to the civilisation of mankind will be as profound or as lasting as that of ancient Greece. You have much to be proud of.

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  • 369. At 8:23pm on 10 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    366 democracy writes:

    "I have often wondered if I sound like a complete crank on this blog..."

    Wonder no more,demo - you do, you do, and much more!

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  • 370. At 8:29pm on 10 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #367. At 8:08pm on 10 Nov 2010, threnodio_II

    I was out since this morning doing something far more interesting than this thread, watching paint dry, now having read through the various posts and seen that the vast majority are bereft of any form of common sense, factual knowledge or even intelligence all I can say is that Scotland and Greece are countries that I will never visit. In the mean time I will keep reminding people I know here that whilst England is full of Scottish, the time is thankfully coming when we will not be mistaken for drunken Scots wearing kilts and eating haggis.

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  • 371. At 8:57pm on 10 Nov 2010, ptsa wrote:

    365. At 7:41pm on 10 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:
    #363 ptsa

    As i said to my #42 post Germans or Austrians can debate over immigration over and over but they well know that the problem has only one culprit. The Turk immigrants. The other Muslim immigrants in Germany are not so much, so nationalists and organized like the Turks...

    ...and mostly can't be defended by their so weak Muslim nations unlike Turkey.

    and the above link you gave is a small "antipasto" of that.

    After the abolishment for visas for Albanian and Bosnians citizens the yesterday headline of the Turkish Millyiet newspaper came out whith this article

    Your turn George! (electronic version of this article)

    of course they feel it!...That only the today economically week Greeks keep them the door closed from the complete abolition of border controls between Schengen states and them.

    [The more weak Greece is the more you Europeans will suffer...Take it or leave it]
    ----
    Yeah, I read the article somewhere else. Boo-hooo, Greece vetoed the free movement of people from a country that still has a casus belli on us if we dare extend our territorial waters based on international law. It brings tears to my eyes.




    367. At 8:08pm on 10 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:
    #365 - Ellinas

    This nasty little squabble in the bottom right hand corner of Europe is getting so tiresome - especially when the only thing on which you can agree is that it is Britain's fault. You join NATO and then point guns at each other, one joins the EU, the other wants to come into the yard but put you in the same playpen together and all you are interested in is beating hell out of each other and blaming someone else. Now either grow up and join he big boys or slink off and slug it out in the yard but stop bitching.
    -----
    Lets see, since both countries joined NATO, we have had a large pogrom in Istanbul that drove away all the Greek population (while at the same time the muslim minority in Greece is still flourishing) and an invasion that divides a country till today. Also check your facts, only one of the two countries has a parliament decision to declare war if the other pursues its sovereign rights based on international law. What an ally that is!!! What did NATO do when all this was happening, bury its head in the sand as usual. The same thing the EU is doing while its border forces are being harassed over the Aegean Sea by Turkish forces and while its borders and territories are being disputed by a candidate country. Ya think this will change? You would probably bitch too as a Brit but lucky you, you are not in Schenghen so it doesn't bother you much. I remember a country bitching about Poland joining and its citizens getting free movement rights, what was its name again?? UK maybe??



    370. At 8:29pm on 10 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
    #367. At 8:08pm on 10 Nov 2010, threnodio_II

    I was out since this morning doing something far more interesting than this thread, watching paint dry, now having read through the various posts and seen that the vast majority are bereft of any form of common sense, factual knowledge or even intelligence all I can say is that Scotland and Greece are countries that I will never visit. In the mean time I will keep reminding people I know here that whilst England is full of Scottish, the time is thankfully coming when we will not be mistaken for drunken Scots wearing kilts and eating haggis.
    ---
    Well its your loss, both Greece and Scotland are beautiful places. But I guess we will not miss another drunk tourist showing us his buttocks and fornicating on a pavement. Cause if you are so quick to judge a country by 1-2 people, we reserve the right to judge England by the image hundreds of its tourists show the rest of the world, right?

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  • 372. At 8:58pm on 10 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    love to alllll:))

    going to work, now

    love for sale

    love thats fresh and still unspoiled

    Not

    :))))))

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  • 373. At 9:02pm on 10 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    advertising Young (oldish, actually) love for sale,

    if youre prepared to pay the price...

    every love but true love...

    if you wanna buy my wares,

    follow me climb the stairs

    :)))))

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  • 374. At 9:11pm on 10 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #371. At 8:57pm on 10 Nov 2010, ptsa

    "But I guess we will not miss another drunk tourist showing us his buttocks and fornicating on a pavement."

    That's proof you don't know the difference between a Scot and an Englishman, the Scots traditionally bare their buttocks to frighten an enemy before the battle. What is the point of us even trying to converse with you if you didn't even know that.

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  • 375. At 9:20pm on 10 Nov 2010, ptsa wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 376. At 9:39pm on 10 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    (_l_)

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  • 377. At 9:45pm on 10 Nov 2010, ptsa wrote:

    376. At 9:39pm on 10 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
    (_l_)

    So you are a Scot? :)

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  • 378. At 10:01pm on 10 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #371 -ptsa

    "you are not in Schenghen so it doesn't bother you much. I remember a country bitching about Poland joining and its citizens getting free movement rights, what was its name again?? UK maybe?"

    Oh dear, how confused can you get? Britain began from a minority of one in championing the cause of admission to the eastern European applicant countries and Britain was one of only three EU countries which did not apply quotas to immigration at the time. I actually now live in one of those countries which, of course, means that I am not subject to Schengen but perish the thought that anything as inconvenient as facts should get in the way of your arguing position.

    I have been as restrained as a reasonable person can be in absorbing the copious volumes of abuse that have been hurled at us from the Hellenic quarter but enough is enough. Modern Greece bears no resemblance to the great civilisation from which it was born. She effectively disappears from the annuls of history for the duration of the dark ages and the the middle ages and re-emerges to be nothing more than a thorn in the side of those who would progress. Byron's extraordinarily naive and simplistic championing of the revolutionary cause was an exercise in lost cause championship which deprived the English language of a great writer and achieved absolutely nothing for you apart from gifting you a hero when your supply ran out. There really is no point in listing historical events parrot fashion - the civil war, the dumping of the monarchy at the very time when Spain was beginning to understand its value, the need for the 'cradle of democracy' to be run by a military junta and, of course, your accounting standards since the restoration of democracy. None of this would matter a damn to me except that you insist on blaming Britain for your history - which is truly amazing for a country which claims to have invented democracy - and then requiring the rest of us to bail you out because the inheritors of the legacy of Pythagoras, Euclid, Hipparchus and Ptolemy appear to have either lost the ability to do basic adding up or have become consummate liars. Whatever happened, you came cap in hand playing the Eurozone card.

    For better or worse, your country has irretrievably committed itself to its European course. Live with it or get the hell out of it. Either is good. But, as I said before, stop bitching about it.

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  • 379. At 10:18pm on 10 Nov 2010, democracythreat wrote:

    Thanks for your contribution, Howard. Once again, your belief in your own superiority takes precedence over your substance.

    threnodio said:
    "For better or worse, your country has irretrievably committed itself to its European course. Live with it or get the hell out of it. Either is good. But, as I said before, stop bitching about it."

    So, how?

    I mean you advocate a lack of complaining. So how would you suggest folks "get the hell out of it"?

    Or do you mean to come across as a simpleton?

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  • 380. At 10:25pm on 10 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 381. At 10:26pm on 10 Nov 2010, ptsa wrote:

    378. At 10:01pm on 10 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:
    #371 -ptsa

    I was living in England at the time when Poland joined and I remember very well the reaction of the British CITIZENS, not necessarily the government.

    I do note as well that you have a feeling that I blamed Britain for our past mishaps so can you please point out where exactly I said that. I will be waiting. It seems that a lot of Brits at these boards are trying to put words in my mouth continuously.

    As for you commenting on the history of modern Greece, you have absolutely no idea so I don't really mind your complete ignorance. You talk as if the modern Greeks have offered nothing to Europe, shows how ignorant you really are. You keep forgetting the Greek resistance and contribution to the Allies during WWII while most other countries were falling like houses of cards to the Axis and even working with them. You're welcome!

    And yes, modern Greece does not resemble ancient Greece, we do not live in marble temples and we do not go around wearing sheets, its been a couple thousand of years, things change, especially when a group of people spend European renaissance under the control of an opressive Muslim empire. You think it is pure luck (or lack of) that the Balkans have all turned that way?

    Anyways, I am done, you seem to have already shaped your opinion. Tick tock though, check the wonderful economy of the UK, a basket case FAIL in the making. Your numbers are not that good either and saving a few hundred million pounds from your budger will not save you! See you soon at the bottom!

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  • 382. At 10:38pm on 10 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #360 Threnodio

    --Which you already tried twice within 2 days !

    #352 point 3

    ´---but is actually harmless and inoffensive´

    -- But not to those who suffered (suffer) under the British Christian Colonial system and its aftermath.

    --- And you dragged Merkel to the sacrificial alter ?

    As I said, your integrity is falling rapidly -- while you dumb yourself down.


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  • 383. At 10:42pm on 10 Nov 2010, mike boothroyd wrote:

    To margaret howard @ 369

    I thought that the posting by democracythreat @ 366 posed some valid and thought provoking questions re the CAP.

    Why did you post a response only to his/her self critical comment?

    Did you read the rest of the post or were you only interested in making a bloggers point?

    If you are not willing to make your points against other opinion holders and their arguments, why bother to participate?

    What are your contrary arguments to the points made in posting 366?

    I'm not seeking to be confrontational, I just don't understand your response.

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  • 384. At 10:42pm on 10 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #377 ptsa

    ---just to keep the others company !

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  • 385. At 10:45pm on 10 Nov 2010, lejacobin wrote:

    The same views are heard in most Western European countries. Now right wing parties hold many seats in national parliament. So what do we do with millions of muslim immigrants? A repeat of what happened in Spain in 1492?
    The problem is not Islam as a religion but the politics of some militant groups. They managed to poison the atmosphere in most Islamic communities in the west. This has create divisions and intollerance can only escalate.

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  • 386. At 10:47pm on 10 Nov 2010, Malkava wrote:

    My, my. The English seem to be on the receiving end of quite a few scathing remarks on these blogs for the past couple of days - unjustly I would think.

    Is there any particular reason for this? It seems as if Europeans hold grudges close to their hearts.

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  • 387. At 10:52pm on 10 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    378 threnodio writes:
    "Byron's extraordinarily naive and simplistic championing of the revolutionary cause was an exercise in lost cause championship which deprived the English language of a great writer and achieved absolutely nothing for you apart from gifting you a hero when your supply ran out."

    Usual English rewriting of history. What really happened was that Byron fled England because:

    "Ultimately, Byron resolved to escape the censure of British society (due to allegations of sodomy and incest) by living abroad,[16] thereby freeing himself of the need to conceal his sexual interests (MacCarthy pp. 86, 314).[18] Byron left England in 1816 and did not return for the last eight years of his life, even to bury his daughter."
    Puts a slighty different slant on it.
    He goes on at 380 to say, oh so elegantly:

    "Now I wonder where our pavement fornicator found his prey. Flew her in from the brothels of the orient did he?"
    No, Luton or Manchester most likely.

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  • 388. At 11:01pm on 10 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #386 Malkava

    ---´ It seems as if Europeans hold grudges to their hearts `

    --tell that to 1/3 of the world who suffered under them !

    Much like Marx after the fall of Communism who said --- ´Sorry guys, it was only an idea !´

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  • 389. At 11:08pm on 10 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    383 EBAGUM wrote:

    "I'm not seeking to be confrontational, I just don't understand your response......Did you read the rest of the post or were you only interested in making a bloggers point?"
    No, I must admit I didn't. You are obviously unaware of the usual bile he writes against Europeans and all that we stand for. He has written reams of poisonous drivel on these very pages. How he can bear to earn his crust amongst us is beyond me. Mind you, he doesn't seem to like his own country ,America, very much either.




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  • 390. At 11:09pm on 10 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    303. At 08:46am on 10 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:
    """#280
    Nik;
    "and above all mass bed bombing with Napalms, often conducted by British pilots too "
    Is this supposed to be a joke?""""

    No it is not a joke. If you were ever interested to learn about that event you could as well search for information from people who LIVED through these events.

    The invasion was technically designed by the US and Britain with the full OK from Russia (who in the 1960s had cancelled two similar efforts in 1964 and 1966 because "it had not been asked"). The division of the island was a geopolitical move from all these 3 players. Even Israel comes to picture but I will not throw to you all the details of that cos you are not mature to swallow everything. Britain that had all along played the card of divide and conquer was finally instructed by the US to push on for the final division all while USSR conceded after being given guarantees of no permanent installation of US troops. Note thought that tere is presence of US troops in Cyprus working on spying and reconaissance as support function for US actions in Middle East though the British till today deny so (2 accidents of aircrafts that took off from British bases on the island, 1 in the 70s and 1 in the 90s involved both US pilots and personel).

    Now that the British (just like the Americans) actively aided the Turks that is known. That the Turkish army was refuelling and getting ammo from the British bases, that is known. That the troops that first cleared the coastal Greek villages were not Turkish but British (though without proper uniforms) calling the population to leave due to a "NATO" training excersise, that is known - back in my UK uni days I had a Cypriot acquaintance whose family came from Keruneia, from a village, one of the closest to the landing spot of the turkish army, I have no reason to call his parents' testimony a lie, afterall, there would be no reason to tell such a lie given that Greeks might hated the British but certainly they hated 10 times more the barbaric-coward Turkish invaders, hence they would not come up with such kind of a lie no matter how much you knock your head dear CBW. Not when they would describe the destruction of their village and the loss of their fathers' land.

    However what is most spectacular is the fact that among the 20 turkish bombarding aircrafts that were shot down (quite a mean feat given Greek army was without heavy artillery and practically acting on its own, without orders), in one case, the pilot who had ejected was arrested and was found to be ... a freelancer. An english speaking pilot serving Turkish bombardments? Nice one there CBW!

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
    Article signed by Makarios Droutsiotis. A Cypriot. And eye witness to many of the events he records. Go call him a liar in his face.

    I can find tons of other material in Greek. Yet I prefer to give it to you throuh more official channels - Enet is one of the biggest Greek newspapers, not my selection but occasionally it writes interesting things - cos in the unofficial one where the complete recordings of the sayings of witnesses you are

    Put it to google translate and educate for once in your life about an event on which you are totally ignorant.

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  • 391. At 11:27pm on 10 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    Article failed - it was not the whole, connection error, I downloaded the whole of it after having checked for more articles of this writer and found out that he is more or less what you call a gauche-caviar so it struck me strange that he would write about such. The above is half the truth (all the beginning) and half lies all the rest (you may read the pathetic excuses he gives) with the guy being one of those Britocommies Cypriots that British usually employed and employ up to our days trying to explain to Greeks of Cyprus and elsewhere how the British were innocent and that Greeks are just paranoid and what they saw did not happen and how the Hermes was all around turkish ships but did not do anything and how the british pilots shot down were not British but educated english speaking european looking turks, and it was all the idea of Greeks. I said I do not trust Enet always but sometimes it has nice articles, not that one. For the knowledgeable however this article is extremely useful as a nice paradigm of self-imposed propaganda. The writer refers to real events in the first part and knows very well it is all the truth, yet he tries to convince in the second part of the opposite ending up in a moral teaching which is present actually only in the most exemplary propagandist paradigms of that kind.

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  • 392. At 11:52pm on 10 Nov 2010, Malkava wrote:

    #388 quietoaktree

    Oh yes, I am aware of the many faults of Europe's history and the repercussions of their actions. However, it is vexing when others choose to cherry-pick their own pieces of history as a way to validate themselves or their respective countries, while enthusiastically discrediting others. I also find that placing blame on one's present shortcomings upon an outside source is nothing short of irresponsible and cowardly.

    Besides, isn't it far better to focus on future issues rather than dwelling on past slights? I can guarantee you, we will have no shortage of future confrontations.

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  • 393. At 11:53pm on 10 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    I have found more articles - complete and solid ones - but how can I pass them here?

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  • 394. At 00:00am on 11 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    DT (#366) and the BBC have repeated my accusation against the presently active British Feudal system. Yet this failure of introspection is expected by many British contributors to be accepted as an intellectual virtue.

    Intellectual Virgins -- is more appropriate.

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  • 395. At 00:12am on 11 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #392 Malkava

    The past, IS England´s future --- and most are proud of it !

    --or do you have problems reading their postings ?

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  • 396. At 00:16am on 11 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #392 Malkava

    1/3 of the world is cherry picking ????

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  • 397. At 00:24am on 11 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #393 Nik

    -- ´but how can I pass them ?´

    -You must eat them first !

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  • 398. At 00:31am on 11 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    #393 Nik

    a) copy the link of the greek article and paste it to the google translator choose from "greek ---> english" and click "translate" button.

    b) After the translation of the html document is finished and you are happy with the result copy the new link (of the translated article) and paste it here.

    c) Click the "preview" button and then to the link to see if it takes you there as you expected...if so click "PostComment" if not find the error and repeat the procedure

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  • 399. At 00:40am on 11 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #393. At 11:53pm on 10 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    "I have found more articles - complete and solid ones - but how can I pass them here?"

    I dont know but please get on with it,I want to go to the newspapers with it. The whole country needs to know that British warplanes dropped napalm on Greek Cypriots in 1974 and if you dont want to get paid for the story then I will.

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  • 400. At 00:46am on 11 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    #397

    ROFL xD

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  • 401. At 00:47am on 11 Nov 2010, Arrrgh wrote:

    You lot now up to 399 comments. It must be a very interesting subject. Can you sum up the discussion in a couple of sentences for me? Or is likely to be - we don't want them here, O yes we do. They should speak our language, O no they shouldn't. They don't have a decent take away, your right. It's not a curry or a chinese.

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  • 402. At 00:55am on 11 Nov 2010, Malkava wrote:

    Essentially, yes. You do not agree that on the whole, most countries tend to over-glorify their accomplishments while down-playing their past and present wrongs? With the latter generally accomplished by blaming an external source? No matter how justified, in the end it accomplishes nothing.

    You play the hand you're dealt.

    As an aside, aren't the English seen as self-deprecating already? No need to encourage that sort of behavior!

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  • 403. At 00:56am on 11 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    392. At 11:52pm on 10 Nov 2010, Malkava wrote:
    #388 quietoaktree

    """Oh yes, I am aware of the many faults of Europe's history and the repercussions of their actions. However, it is vexing when others choose to cherry-pick their own pieces of history as a way to validate themselves or their respective countries, while enthusiastically discrediting others."""

    Or otherwise what you suggest to us is "believe and do not search". Do you find the need of people to search annoying or something?

    """I also find that placing blame on one's present shortcomings upon an outside source is nothing short of irresponsible and cowardly."""

    Cowardly? You use very heavy characterisations. Coward is the one who runs away from reality and tries to cling on to the convenient lie. Some really mind me of a retarded kid who is abandoned at an institution and who is years after told that it was his own mother than abandoned him there and he refuses to believe and gets violent hitting the one that revealed him the reaility and shouting "nah nah nah nah"...

    """Besides, isn't it far better to focus on future issues rather than dwelling on past slights?"""

    I.e. you propose people to become animals? There is no dealing of future without knowledge of the past.

    """I can guarantee you, we will have no shortage of future confrontations."""

    So what? Is it confrontations that lacked from human interaction? We speak and exchange views and ideas on all levels and often end up in conftontations. But so be it. If we agreed on everything we would not be here.

    Let me say so that in reality what I saw above is that a large number of interlocutors who are most often disagreeing on anything, on this issue their positions are not so far.

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  • 404. At 01:15am on 11 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #402 Malkava

    I have never read a German on this blog praising their past-- they accept they have no reason. Neither do they down-play its horrors.

    Intellectual Virginity is considered ignorance --rather than an indication of nationalistic purity.

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  • 405. At 01:28am on 11 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    #367 threnodio_II

    This nasty little squabble in the bottom right hand corner of Europe makes you get so tiresome? If you like having 70.000.000 Turks without the need for a Visa to enter UK it's fine with me...i personally don't care. I care for my country because in a blink of an eye (less than 10 years) we found ourselves to confront us with million of immigrants (consequence of your evil US/british actions & preachings in Irak and Afghanistan) mostly young Muslims who have no certain destiny to a nowadays small country fool of problems.

    ...and of course they do it easily (by bus) paying, US dollars, to Turkish smugglers industry so to bring them to Europe

    Human Smugglers - Europe

    Contrary to your believes this bottom right hand corner of Europe is actually the most important schengen matter

    Greece is a buffer as well as a bottleneck country separating wealthy Europe from the middle east and Asia and the most under-pressure line of defense for Europe and mostly the schengen countries! If Europeans will continue silence at the end they will suffer more than we Greeks do at this moment. (300 Muslims per day)

    You see when a balloon (EU) inflate (millions of immigrants coming from Turkey-Turkish included), at first only the balloon neck (Greeks) suffer but at the end when burst automatically, only the balloon neck is to be found.

    [The more weak Greece is the more you Europeans will suffer...Take it or leave it]

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  • 406. At 01:52am on 11 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    > 402. At 00:55am on 11 Nov 2010, Malkava wrote:
    > Essentially, yes. You do not agree that on the whole, most countries tend to
    > over-glorify their accomplishments while down-playing their past and present wrongs?

    There is a (Chinese?) saying:

    ...Only stupids learn from their mistakes,
    ...Wise men learn from other peoples mistakes!

    I don't believe in inherited glory nor guilt.
    But there's an obligation to learn from historical lessons.

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  • 407. At 02:06am on 11 Nov 2010, ptsa wrote:

    378. At 10:01pm on 10 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    A great article for you to read in today's news (or yesterdays?, I don't know, the time difference here in the US always confuses me)

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11726822

    You may say, not as bad as things happening in Greece but this is how it starts. And this was just students demonstrating against fee hikes. Wait till your governments tells all the chavs that they will not get free housing and paid to do nothing, till the pensioners will see their pensions disappear, public workers get fired en masse and their pay gets severely cut. Then you will have images of people on the streets, demonstrating, breaking things, no matter how more civilized you consider yourselves from the Club Med nations. The Brits haven't demonstrated violently for decades, all that energy has been kept inside, just let me know when to microwave my popcorn.

    By the way, speaking of bailouts, what was the year the UK got bailed out by the IMF? Was it '75-'76 or something? Not impressive for an empire of that size.

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  • 408. At 03:52am on 11 Nov 2010, Malkava wrote:

    #403 Nik

    You misunderstand me. It is essential to learn from past mistakes and apply that knowledge towards the future - rest assured, that will never be called into question when I post my views on history.

    What I do take issue with, is when people choose to view history through their own narrow scope, ripe with all of their inherent prejudices - whether they realize it or not, and attempt to pass off those views as unbiased, unquestionable fact. Not only that, but to place blame on a country or people due to an event that happened well in the past, is nothing short of ridiculous.

    "Cowardly? You use very heavy characterisations."

    That's right. I don't mince words, and I feel cowardly is an appropriate term in regards to this particular point. You are welcome to rail against your present circumstances on another country's faults and past wrongs. Don't expect it to do any good if you don't have the fortitude or drive to do something constructive to change it.

    Not every fault can be placed at the foot of someone else, regardless of how you may feel.

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  • 409. At 03:57am on 11 Nov 2010, Malkava wrote:

    #404 quietoaktree

    I am very pleased to hear that the Germans on this blog are very sensible people.

    However, that is hardly a substitute for the collective views of the entire German nation. If that were so, I do not believe this particular topic would have been written in the first place, don't you think?

    It is natural for people to defend their countries and culture. I find it hard to believe that any one nation is immune to such nationalistic tendencies.

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  • 410. At 04:18am on 11 Nov 2010, Malkava wrote:

    #406 popolfi

    An interesting proverb. I suppose that would explain why China is doing so well.

    "I don't believe in inherited glory nor guilt.
    But there's an obligation to learn from historical lessons."


    Neither do I. But I also feel there is an obligation to live and let live, and to not let past prejudices determine the course of the future.

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  • 411. At 05:33am on 11 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    #330 CBW "Of course there is an enormous cultural debt owed to the German-speaking peoples going back over many centuries."


    I had a doctor once who was fond of saying that Austrians are the most clever people on Earth since they've managed to convince practically everybody that Hitler was German and Beethoven -Austrian.

    BTW. Ludwig van 's family was actually of Flemish origin.

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  • 412. At 05:40am on 11 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re 332 CBW

    Do you know that Patton was already in Sudetenland but was ordered to withdraw after Stalin complained do Eisenhower that "that's not what we've agreed on in Yalta"? :(

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  • 413. At 05:43am on 11 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re: "try sunbathing in nearly any Muslim country...ahhh, you have to put on sun factor burka...and not only that...they want to impose sun factor burka in the west"


    Perhaps those progressive Muslims know that UV is not good for your skin?

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  • 414. At 05:54am on 11 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #352 threnodio II:" To use any of the above to wage war on the rest of society, regardless of what they believe, and especially from the indefensible position of doing so dressed as and pretending to be civilians is totally unacceptable regardless of the righteousness of the cause and the desirability of the outcome."






    It may be worth pointing out that those who claim that U.S. have violated Geneva Convention when combating Islamist terrorists in Afghanistan and elsewhere are obviously not aware that document pertains specifically to "uniformed soldiers of an enemy's regular armed forces"

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  • 415. At 05:55am on 11 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Yea! Thursday is Veterans Day"



    Lest we forget!

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  • 416. At 06:06am on 11 Nov 2010, jaxn wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 417. At 07:21am on 11 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #410. At 04:18am on 11 Nov 2010, Malkava

    Your posts have been very balanced and down to earth, you should be careful as many other posters here don't like that, they get jealous as they envy anyone that doesn't live in a Walter Mitty world. The Greeks here are totally immersed in such a fantasy world, believing that all their ills are not their fault, it's like a serial criminal will always claim it's not their fault, it's their disadvantaged background.

    In the case of the English we have a tradition of not biting our tongue but speaking up when we don't like something and we detest duplicity. Concerning the EU that has made us somewhat disliked since deceitfulness in speech is the modus operandi and the politicians don't like straight talking, everything has to be underhand and corrupt. There are then those in the various populations who swallow that and being envious because they can't or won't reject duplicity try to rubbish the English.

    As regards the Scots, well they're going through an identity crisis like many other small regions across the EU, it seems to be one of the benefits of Socialist tinkering. They perpetually told people to not forget their roots yet hold up their hands in horror when it rebounds against them. In England it has been almost a crime for an English person to be proud of their roots, yet every other genetic heritage is to be congratulated, that's why some of us here are so fed up with the likes of oat, mh, ptsa, nik and ellias. Ptsa claims he/she can tell an English from a Scot, what utter unadulterated crap, a dialect is a clue but only a clue as I've known many with the dialect of the other region who are not from there.

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  • 418. At 07:21am on 11 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "He goes on at 380 to say, oh so elegantly:

    "Now I wonder where our pavement fornicator found his prey. Flew her in from the brothels of the orient did he?"
    No, Luton or Manchester most likely."


    Margaret Howard.

    Nobody in their right mind would go at (A)380 these days.

    From Luton, Manchester, or even Glasgow. :)

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  • 419. At 07:24am on 11 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 420. At 07:30am on 11 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    An explanation:


    Napalm is not an anti-personel weapon. It was developed and used to create heli landings in a jungle by burning trees and brush.

    To my knowledge it has ever been used in Greece.

    Unless some locals used it to start fires (a couple of years ago) to conceal non-existence of olive-groves they received EU subsidies for.

    [as BBC's Mark Mardell reported]

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  • 421. At 07:41am on 11 Nov 2010, democracythreat wrote:

    threnodio II:" To use any of the above to wage war on the rest of society, regardless of what they believe, and especially from the indefensible position of doing so dressed as and pretending to be civilians is totally unacceptable regardless of the righteousness of the cause and the desirability of the outcome."

    What an incredibly contrived outpouring of righteousness. How very British.

    Threnodio believes in uniforms. He feels, presumably, that jews in NAZI germany and the resistance in France *cough* ought never have struck back at their respective murderers and occupiers. Because they didn't have uniforms. And if they did strike back, it ought never have been with bombing those who collaborated with the occupiers, and must never have been action in such a way as to attack the infrastructure of their environment and thus destabilize the occupying regime.

    Well, it is an interesting posture. I'm not wholly against it, myself. It is halfway to pacifism. But what appalls me is the implication that if one dress up like a dandy and toasts the queen, shooting folks for money is suddenly the sports of champions.

    Well, it's the 11th of the 11th today. Lest we forget.

    Especially those who don't understand.

    Right now, some goon in a uniform is killing and raping so that you can be free. So that we can all be free.

    FREE, FREE AT LAST!

    Thanks to the government goons in uniforms, killing on folks for a few bucks a day.

    Lest we forget.

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  • 422. At 07:41am on 11 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    #419

    I'd much prefer grey squirrel in England to RED squirrel; although I consider immigration of GREEN squirrels to UK (and US) quite dangerous.

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  • 423. At 07:42am on 11 Nov 2010, democracythreat wrote:

    He's getting at the squirrels now!

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  • 424. At 08:00am on 11 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #420

    "Napalm is not an anti-personel weapon. It was developed and used to create heli landings in a jungle by burning trees and brush.

    To my knowledge it has ever been used in Greece".

    Clearly its never been used in Greece, and even more clearly not by the British or English-looking-European-Turks lol. As for your claim about what napalm is used for, come on man, this is getting ridiculous. The Pentagon admits it, journalists witnessed it. There's no bloody jungle in Iraq.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2003/030810-napalm-iraq01.htm

    "American pilots dropped the controversial incendiary agent napalm on Iraqi troops during the advance on Baghdad. The attacks caused massive fireballs that obliterated several Iraqi positions"

    "A 1980 UN convention banned the use against civilian targets of napalm, a terrifying mixture of jet fuel and polystyrene that sticks to skin as it burns. The US, which did not sign the treaty, is one of the few countries that makes use of the weapon. It was employed notoriously against both civilian and military targets in the Vietnam war."

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  • 425. At 08:08am on 11 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Nik,

    Use the restroom to "pass" them, perhaps.

    :)))

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  • 426. At 08:10am on 11 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #423. At 07:42am on 11 Nov 2010, democracythreat

    Pathetic, if you are so unaware of what is happening in nature and the animal kingdom just go away, look in the mirror and repeat "who is the most stupid of all".

    As for "Right now, some goon in a uniform is killing and raping so that you can be free. So that we can all be free.". What are you proposing, that the EU intervenes throughout Africa? Are suggesting that this would then stop the uncontrolled African immigration to the EU.

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  • 427. At 08:11am on 11 Nov 2010, Gavrosche wrote:

    @Janus Avivson
    Yes, :) Germans defiantly have a "German" gene lol. Epic comment, thank you

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  • 428. At 08:24am on 11 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Australia's highest court has backed migrant claims of unfair laws as the government tries to strengthen borders.[...]

    Ms Gillard's minority government relies on support from the Green Party to stay in power; the Greens have long been critical of the harsh immigration laws.

    But many Australians dislike the prospect of many more migrants arriving in the country." (BBC News)


    Well, it seems not only Germans, Britons, etc.

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  • 429. At 08:43am on 11 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    The question is were regimes that were actually awful And appalling being replaced with other appalling regimes...after WW1???

    The United States was blamed for that result, interestingly, Before Arming Itself--**read your history numb minds here**--

    ("non participation in the League of Nations) but the blame was perhaps disproportionately given to the USA, then.

    ie..

    "Reparations to France"????

    The seeming result of Versailles was Stalin and Hitler for undeserving nations--I hope they were undeserving:)

    But, that doesn't excuse either Lenin/Stalin Or Hitler or their respective nations (sorry Alice y Nik) for their persecution/prosection of domestic populations...

    which basically led to 100 million dead (plus?)--in WW2--and the Costs of the Cold War...

    And Stalin was "somewhat of a war hero," if hated/distrusted for good reason in NATO--

    Maybe that is why its hard for Russians to hate him more than "seems appropriate."

    "To gain "living room" for Germany's self declared superior people, HItler pursued a war of extermination..

    That is why DustigerMann, I do not applaud or much trust any altered history of WW2--facts do just fine, please.

    New world orders can be cretinous!!!

    Beware the lulled into post "Pax Americana" world..be quite sure of the Parameters!

    Remember the Post Cold war wars? Bush's "Wars of Wastage???!!!" Clinton's "EU enforced war against Serbia?" Watch out world!

    Much Worse Can Follow.:((

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  • 430. At 08:45am on 11 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Ahead of the G20, China and Germany, both huge exporters, piled in attacking US monetary policy. Their target is the second round of quantitative easing announced last week by America's central bank"

    [BBC' Mark Mardell reporting]

    figures. :)

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  • 431. At 08:51am on 11 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    I do worry about Balance of Power politics between China and the USA--remember the India/Pakistan national divide

    China and America won't go to war against each other, but---There are still old empires which may not go silently into the night.

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  • 432. At 08:53am on 11 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    I do think there will be a long drawn out decline of the USA--but the key words are long, drawn-out, not decline...

    as China rises.

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  • 433. At 09:22am on 11 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #390

    Quite simply (1): NO! There was no 'English' or British Pilot, inc. RAF or ex-RAF, shot-down flying for the Turkish Airforce during the invasion & occupation of Northern Cyprus. It is a fabrication.

    Quite simply (2): NO! There was absolutely no co-ordination between the US-UK & USSR for the Turkish invasion of Northern Cyprus.

    Quite simply (3): YES! Droutsiotis' account is fabricated or based on misunderstanding of his experiences - - similarly with 'NATO Exercise' - - British troops in Cyprus were deployed to assist foreigners/holidaymakers caught-up in the conflict & also assisted fleeing Greek Cypriots.

    Quite simply (4): The politically inspired prejudices put forward in wholly unverified, totally unsubstantiated 'ignorant' assertion of UK involvement are ludicrous & from someone claiming a "university" education border yet again on madness.

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  • 434. At 09:27am on 11 Nov 2010, Fergal wrote:

    ............ 385. At 10:45pm on 10 Nov 2010, lejacobin wrote:

    The same views are heard in most Western European countries. Now right wing parties hold many seats in national parliament. So what do we do with millions of muslim immigrants? A repeat of what happened in Spain in 1492?

    ......
    yes please....but this time, maybe not so Gently....them Spanish were too slow and soft hearted back then... ;)

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  • 435. At 09:30am on 11 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #432. At 08:53am on 11 Nov 2010, Stevenson

    China and Germany have the same problem, they depend largely on their exports to provide their strength, if they decline their industrial strength likewise will be running at below capacity. We saw with Germany a few months back how scared they were about the Greek problem since they export so much to Greece and how much those exports were paid for by German loans. China is in a very similar position as it hold many loans to back its exports as the number one exporter, and if countries default, well everyone now knows what will happen. If the USA declines, China will not necessarily rise as it is becoming too reliant on Exports as well as expanding its influence to places like Africa.

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  • 436. At 09:53am on 11 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    will just hve to roll w the punches:)

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  • 437. At 10:07am on 11 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    STEVENSON: China and America won't go to war against each other, but---"




    China and India might.


    Both have long, unresolved territorial claims vis-avis each other which already resulted in a couple of wars, and both vie for a status of number one superpower in Asia.

    Both, China and India have nuclear arsenals.

    And in 20 years India will have as many people as China - roughly 1500 million mouths to feed each.


    It may give one a pause.

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  • 438. At 10:12am on 11 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Fergal!

    The Spanish declined when their slaves found no more silver in the Andes.

    They had no real worth economically except as tyrannical slavers/exploiters -- have fun without "Venice like trading power!"--ftom that era...

    Look at the legacy left by Spain. A Portuguese nation of majority "Indian" natives--Brazil--Finally (!) is the big Economic success in Latin America--ty God:)))

    Ha! Yahoo for indigenous peoples power.

    The Inquisition--Spain's legacy!

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  • 439. At 10:19am on 11 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #421

    LEST WE FORGET...

    Quote, "..I understand that it isn't possible that everyone in the UK is a degenerate human being. That is crazy talk, I know. And yet I confess, if I were pressed on the matter that would be my view.." (03/05/10)

    Quote, "..hateful & pompous culture of refinement that the Brits & French share. It just makes a person want to stab them all in the eye with a fork.." (16/05/10)

    Quote, "..that makes me anti-British. The more I think about it, the more I am convinced the best British were killed in the 1st & 2nd World Wars.."

    followed by,

    "..UK has become like Israel, in that respect. It contains the dregs of its former society.." (30/05/10)


    Quote, "..the implication is that you owe these goons (conscripts/volunteers to war) something because they took the King's shilling and went and shot folks, maybe killed a few babies and raped a few locals.."

    followed by,

    Quote, "..Ex-soldiers who dress up in their costumes and parade around streets have all got their hands out for money. They want special pensions, they want mental trauma payments, they want cheap beer at special clubs, they want, they want, they want.."

    rounded-off by,

    Quote, "..It (Remembrance Day commemoration) is such a fraud and a farce.." (01/11/2010)

    All contributed by: DemocracyThreat.

    Ah, if only we could all share his eminent wisdom, compassion, humility and abiding Humanitarian instinct for his fellow Humans.

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  • 440. At 10:22am on 11 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:


    410. At 04:18am on 11 Nov 2010, Malkava wrote:
    > But I also feel there is an obligation to live and let live, and to not let past
    > prejudices determine the course of the future.

    Sure, but don't you think the newcomers should show the same tolerance and determination for a peaceful society?


    -------------
    "The refugees from Lebanon lead for years by far the crime statistics in Germany. In relation to their percentage of 0.38% of the total population of male adolescents and adolescents in Berlin Lebanese had in 2006 a share of of 5.3% of the detainees, even almost 14 times more likely imprisoned, as it would correspond to their population share."
    ...

    from: "Sind die Libanon-Flüchtlinge noch zu integrieren?" by Ralph Ghadban (26.02.2008)

    googletranslate: http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ghadban.de%2Fde%2Fwp-content%2Fdata%2Fdie-libanon-fluchtlinge2.pdf
    -----------------

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  • 441. At 10:33am on 11 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #438

    The Portuguese were the biggest slave traders in history, even more than Britain, an esimated 3.6 million were taken to Brazil. But it was a nice story anyway.

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  • 442. At 11:56am on 11 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Lucky people on this blog with wide horizons and able to see things from an Eagle's view. I have lost this trait :o))))) I am afraid, recently. Wish to blame a country or two - and can't :o))))

    I've got so many problems accumulated! Became far more timid :o(
    And, whenever I cast a (desperate) glance - is it Britain to blame? the USA, after all?!

    No, - it's always Mum.
    :o))))))


    I promise I will work on it, and may be will re-gain the ability to find someone further :o))))) but as things are today - sorry :o))), can't.
    To the opposite, it gets closer and closer to the centre (me :o) like, all the wrong-doings of the past keep creeping dangerously :o))))))) in my direction!
    (aaah)
    :o)

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  • 443. At 12:26pm on 11 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    popolfi,

    and you happen to be often very ? insightful

    that saying, "The silly learn on own mistakes, the clever - on the mistakes of others: :o))))))) may be Russian. Or may be Chinese, as we habitually grabatise so many things How can one know :o))))))

    either way it didn't do us any good :o))))

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  • 444. At 12:43pm on 11 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    I think it may be an occasion for a dispute - "For what a country can be tolerated" :o)))) like, what for others can live with its existence.

    Because simply so :o) - they won't :o)

    Is it a combined achievement of a place, like level of life, or some freedoms, or well-being, for which a place can be respected (tolerated), or a hand-ful or a star-?dotted -sky of bright individuals from the place?
    And which one is better - to be happy because of individual achievements, or because of mass achievement.

    They say here the USSR has ended when there died all the people for who it could be tolerated. Which I think is true.
    So we are definitely on "individual" basis, as a justification for a country's existence' (the path).
    Though, strangely, from outside the USSR was often justified on the basis of "mass achievement", ike, "not much achieved, but for all across equally shared". But internally it was definitely felt this is not good enough! :o))))) May be because people are individual, after all, and can't think of "mass things". well, can think - can't sanction these :o), as "good enough".


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  • 445. At 3:09pm on 11 Nov 2010, PickledPete wrote:

    margaret howard at # 389 wrote:

    "No, I must admit I didn't. You are obviously unaware of the usual bile he writes against Europeans and all that we stand for. He has written reams of poisonous drivel on these very pages. How he can bear to earn his crust amongst us is beyond me".

    =====================

    This from a Scot, living in England, who never misses a chance to write the most spiteful, inaccurate, offensive comments on the English and their history. Is there no word for "irony" in Gaelic?

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  • 446. At 3:20pm on 11 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    Christian woman sentenced to death in Pakistan 'for blasphemy'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/8120142/Christian-woman-sentenced-to-death-in-Pakistan-for-blasphemy.html

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  • 447. At 3:54pm on 11 Nov 2010, nordicum wrote:

    #421 Democracythreat:

    A tangent, but much more interesting than where the current thread has ended up.

    Well said about thugs fighting and killing for "our freedom". I fully agree. Enough with the lip service to professional soldiers that have a license to kill. Today is about remembering sacrifices made one hundred years ago, when times were very different.

    I do not subscribe in this fad of supporting one's army automatically. In fact, the only time one could actually feel this way is if you are actually, personally being attacked. It is defense after all.

    In Canada every third car has a sticker "Support Our Troops". The airport in Ottawa has a massive banner saying the same. Why this support if the majority of the population are actually against any war that the politicians have decided to take part in. Besides, these soldiers are professional, it is their career. They are not conscripted, get a good salary and a guaranteed pension. Best of all, every several years they can go and empty their guns into other people and their homes, smoke some cigarettes, and come back as heroes of freedom, democracy and other nonsense.

    Why on earth would I support them? Salaried, under-educated, licensed thugs.

    On a side, I do find your contribution to the discussion on the EU and CAP subsidies, especially land-owners, very interesting and will look into this further.

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  • 448. At 4:14pm on 11 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #447 Nordicum

    The aggressiveness of a nation can be judged the size of its armed forces -- others have more to complain than you !

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  • 449. At 4:16pm on 11 Nov 2010, LadyEcon wrote:

    This is a serious issue and I hope that an answer can be found. Sadly the economic turmoil that has hit both Portugal and Ireland this week is only likely to exacerbate any existing problems.Today appears to have hit crisis levels.

    I am surprised you have not updated us on this Gavin....

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  • 450. At 4:31pm on 11 Nov 2010, aglr wrote:

    First of all I don't know why immigrants are labeled with their religion rather than their country of origin. What is a muslim immigrant? I am from Turkey and live in Britain and I am an atheist. But because of this stereotype I am counted as a muslim immigrant. When someone asks me something about Islam 90% of the time they start the question with 'How do you muslim people do .......this or that?" Trust me this is quite annoying for someone who is an atheist and anti-religion.

    The situation in Germany is very complex. When Germany invited guest workers from Turkey for their successful reconstruction after the Second World War most of the Turkish people who went to Germany were from rural areas of Turkey where people had a little if not no opportunity to get a good education. They were still quite conservative and traditionalist as the urbanization was still quite immature in 1950s' Turkey. If they migrated to Istanbul there would have been a lot of difficulties for their integration at that time let alone going to another country where the language, culture, religion etc. is different than theirs. So I find it perfectly normal for the first generation. However the second and third generations in Germany had different problems such as the confusion due to being bombarded by 2 very different norms and values that of Germans and Turks. And the attacks perpetuated by the extreme nationalists Germans on Turkish families in the form of burning down their houses ( there are numerous cases) didn't help at all for them to feel that belonging to their resident country. and I believe the 3rd generation is doing a much better job than the previous 2 in terms of integration into the society. So who's fault is it then? Well both sides are equally guilty. Germany should have had a much better social program to help the Turkish people feel safe and respected when they first arrived in Germany. Thinking that they would go back after Germany used their labor force to a maximum was nothing but naive and unethical. At the end of the day thousands of Turkish workers had invaluable contribution to Germany's post war recovery. But instead they were forced to build ghettos and live distant from the Germans. And Turks, well they had to be more open minded about the differences they witnessed when they arrived in Germany and should allow their kids to experiment rather than trying to keep em away from the "German evil". However due to the reasons I have counted above, this fear was caused by their much smaller in size lives before arriving in Germany. Take a German from a village in which the population is 500 and put them in the middle of Berlin or Munich. They will have as much difficulty keeping up with the pace and integrating as well. This problem will solve itself in the near future as more Turkish people start working with Germans thanks to their university degrees but until then this is the price Germany has to pay in return to their quick recovery after the war. And they should stop making it more difficult for the immigrants to integrate by passing laws under the name of facilitating integration of immigrants. But if they expect people to become German rather than German citizens then I have to say that this is no different than what Hitler did.

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  • 451. At 4:46pm on 11 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    On Remembrance Day, it would be nice if Britain also honored the volunteers of Bomber Command who volunteered but could not accomplish their sortie promise.

    ---and instead were branded as cowards by their superior officers.

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  • 452. At 5:02pm on 11 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #424


    A link to the hardly independent "Independent" piece is hardly an evidence of anything.


    Send me a link to Pentagon statement.


    Btw If cannot tell a difference between napalm and Mark 77 firebombs, please, don't touch the subject of any munitions.

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  • 453. At 6:02pm on 11 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #450 agir

    As one who has witnessed the deterioration of German -Turkish citizens relationships over the years -I can only partly agree with your contribution.

    The first Turks who went to Germany were given a social protection luxury as that of Germans. Most came without families --however for tax and social benefits, their family and children were recognized and the mass exodus to Turkey during the holiday season (6 weeks holiday ?) --is hardly comparable with Hitler when they returned to Germany freely after loading off the gifts.

    Over the years The Turkish community has imported Turkish social change --whether it is the Milli Gurush (?), their civil war or Erdogan (NO to assimilation!) or headscarfs for children. The tendency to arrange (forced marriages--often with near relatives in Turkey) still exist as does the view that Germany offers far more than Turkey for those living there -- again hardly requires a comparison with Hitler !

    If you really know about Turks in Germany through experience -- Then comment !

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  • 454. At 6:11pm on 11 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    411 powermeer writes:
    "BTW. Ludwig van 's family was actually of Flemish origin."
    And that's supposed to be news? Everyone knows that 'van' is the Dutch version of 'von'. By the same token he died and was buried in Vienna! Just as all Americans come from somewhere else, like Poland for instance, and still call themselves Americans.

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  • 455. At 6:17pm on 11 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Our warmongers are still with us --

    Which nationalities ?

    The same culprits as usual ?

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  • 456. At 6:32pm on 11 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    The usual warmongers--

    --And on Remembrance Day.

    How thoughtful of the Patriots and Nationalists !

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  • 457. At 6:36pm on 11 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #452

    "Btw If cannot tell a difference between napalm and Mark 77 firebombs, please, don't touch the subject of any munitions. "


    "The effects of MK-77 bombs are so similar to those of napalm that even many members of the U.S. military continue to refer to them as "napalm" bombs in informal situations. The official designation of Vietnam-era napalm bombs was the Mark 47"

    "The MK-77 is a napalm canister munition"

    "The Mk 77 Mod 5 firebombs are incendiary devices with a function indentical to earlier Mk 77 napalm weapons"


    Nice try, try again. Napalm is jellied gaslonine, Mark77 is jellied aviation fuel. The difference between the two is merely semantics but I admit it was a stroke of genius to rename it as a "firebomb" - I mean what was napalm if not a firebomb lol? Are you still claiming that the US only used napalm in Vietnam to clear jungles for helicopter landings? Of course I cant produce a Pentagon link - the US denies that Mark 77 is even napalm. But given that mark-77 is an acknowleged US weapon in service and given that the US is the only country to not have signed the 1980 treaty then its highly likely to still be using it dont you think? You stay in patriotic denial all you like, it makes no difference to me.

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  • 458. At 6:57pm on 11 Nov 2010, aglr wrote:

    quietoaktree

    I don't realy know what you mean by the social protection luxury. It is strange that you see social protection as a luxury, not as a right.

    It is a very intriguing aspect of human mind that it is very selective. As I have experienced in numerous cases as well as the BBC forums people tend to pick bits from a comment and base their arguments around them rather than trying to understand the whole statement.

    So here I write it again;
    they(Germany) should stop making it more difficult for the immigrants to integrate by passing laws under the name of facilitating integration of immigrants. But if they expect people to become German rather than German citizens then I have to say that this is no different than what Hitler did.
    As you can clearly see I am talking about a condition which is the German desire to make the immigrants Germans rather than German citizens and IF there is such a desire then any law passed under this mindset will reflect the mindset of Hitler's.

    So I am not trying to make any resemblance between Germany providing social protection to Hitler policies.

    It was very recent that some high profile state official in Germany stated that immigrants are lowering down the average IQ levels in Germany. And this wasnt the first or the only case of such ludicrous statements.

    I am totally with you on you criticism against the Milli Gorus or the little girls wearing headscarves as their parents forced them to. But I also have to say that I know a lot of German-Turks and they have perfectly normal families and wouldn't force their daughters to wear a headscarf. So although, I believe that number of Turks who are extreme muslims is small compare to the 2 million Turkish population in Germany I would hesitate to say it for sure and I would be willing to see some numbers before we make such comments. But most importantly one should look into the reasons behind the rise of extremism among Turks in Germany. They have for years been exploited by the extreme nationalist and religious groups by using their isolation as means to reach them and convert them into their ideology. I will go back to my initial point here. The low education level of first Turks in Germany made them very vulnerable to such attacks by the nationalist or religious groups. Its a fact. It s easier to convince someone who has a primary school degree or none at all. Well this is obviously their fault. But not foreseeing this crucial problem was German goverments' fault too. Infusion of thousands of villagers in your cities obviously wont be the easiest of the transitions. I think, If they werent made feel isolated perhaps things could have been different now. And on the contrary if the Turks were more cooperative again things could have been different.

    We have to analyze this situation socially first to be able to see the big picture. You can't just say it is all their fault.

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  • 459. At 7:23pm on 11 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    450 agir writes:
    "When Germany invited guest workers from Turkey for their successful reconstruction after the Second World War...and....At the end of the day thousands of Turkish workers had invaluable contribution to Germany's post war recovery....and again .....this is the price Germany has to pay in return to their quick recovery after the war."

    I am surprised that as a Turk yourself you are so ignorant as to the history of Turkish workers in Germany. The first Turks came to work in the country in 1960 and had nothing to do with the 'Wirtschaftswunder' that took place in post war Germany. The cause of this is best explained in the following extract from Wikipedia:
    "The Korean war (1950-53) led to a worldwide increased demand for goods, and the resulting shortage helped overcome lingering resistance to the purchase of German products. At the time Germany had a large pool of skilled and cheap labour, partly as a result of the deportations and migrations which affected up to 16.5 million Germans. This helped Germany to more than double the value of its exports during and after the war. Apart from these factors, hard work and long hours at full capacity among the population in the 1950s, 1960s and early 1970s and extra labour supplied by thousands of Gastarbeiter ("guest workers") provided a vital base for the economic upturn."
    As the article says post war Germany was swamped with ethnic German refugees being expelled from Eastern Europe or fleeing Russian invasion. Germany could not possibly even consider employing labour from other countries as it could hardly cope with this influx of its own people.
    If you take away this entitlement you claimed Turkish people should expect then how can you blame their refusal to integrate on the host nation?


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  • 460. At 7:33pm on 11 Nov 2010, nordicum wrote:

    # 458

    Hitler has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Try to get past the very easy and all-too-common catch-all term. WWII is over. Let it go as the Germans have. You would be considered a fool in Germany for having said something like that.

    The immigration law is not trying to make Germans out of anyone. A Bavarian, after all, is firstly Bavarian, then German. The law is trying to ensure that immigrants can function in the society. One of the essentials is to know the language. Obviously a good idea. Definitely nothing to do with Hitler.

    Yes, integrating immigrants with lower than average education may be more difficult, but it can be done. North America is full of old immigrant families that left home in poverty and hunger, and they have done well.

    I am an immigrant. The responsibility to integrate is on one's own shoulders. The country one chooses to move to (unless a refugee, no choice but to run) does not owe anyone anything. Work hard, learn, live, and repeat.

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  • 461. At 7:47pm on 11 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Nordicum

    Re #447

    Having only been to Canada once some 35 years ago whilst in the UK Armed Forces I cannot really make any comment on the significance of 11/11 at 11 o'clock to Canadians.

    For sure in the UK there are 2 significant dates & events surrounding them:

    11 o'clock on 11/11 is an annual 'Silence', but it is not compulsory & though generally adhered to there are many instances of people in work, travelling, at home etc. who're not involved by choice or circumstance.

    The nearest Sunday to 11/11 is the UK-wide official Remembrance Day for all UK Armed Forces personnel to be commemorated for their service to the nation. The UK's services are generally led by the Royal Family, Political leadership, Armed Forces' C-in-C etc. and Veterans as well as present day members of all the Services attending a Wreath-laying ceremony at the Cenotaph which is the monument to the 'Unknown Soldier' (built a few years after WW1 ended) and is taken as representing all the 'fallen' of all conflicts. Across the UK similar parades usually go to the local War Memorial.

    Now, as I say, I can't make any comment on Canada, but I'm intrigued by Your adverse reaction to the current Canadian Armed Forces personnel: Which year did they stop being members of the Nation's defence forces and become "..salaried, under-educated, licensed 'thugs'.."?
    You mention a "hundred years ago", so do You mean all Canadian servicemen & women post-WW1 have been common brutes? Did You mean to include WW2 Canadian forces' personnel as in the good or thug element? What about those Canadian Servicemen/women in the Cold War stationed in Western Europe & UK: Were they all thugs? Then again, did You mean the Canadian cadres that took part in the Liberation of Kuweit from Saddam's Iraq circa 1992 were these deviants You disapprove of so strongly? Or, is it just those presently serving in Afghanistan - - they are in a Volunteer Armed Force which has stood alongside the USA, UK & West/East Europe via NATO, is it them?

    If so, I just wonder if You've lately voiced that opinion of their limited schooling & nasty aggressiveness in Canada?

    On July 1st 1916 the Newfoundland Regiment of almost 950 volunteers from that island set-off from their trenches at Beaumont Hamel on the River Somme to attack the German trench lines only 800 metres away: In the space of the first hour over 800 of the Newfoundlanders were killed.
    What did they die for? Why so many? Why some and not others? Who were the UK & Empire General Staff responsible for that debacle being re-enacted all along the Frontline on that date?

    Of course, I understand You consider those Newfoundlanders to not be 'thugs': What I cannot fathom is at what point and for what reason/s did the sons, grandsons, great grandsons etc. of those desperately unfortunate volunteers turn into the type of people You now so clearly despise and regard as no better than hired murderers?

    As I say, Commemoration maybe different in Canada from the UK: All the same, placing a wreath in Remembrance of a Newfoundland man/men who did not return to trenches in the evening of July 1st 1916 is surely no bad thing and neither would be Remembering the Canadian men & women who do not return from any other conflict upto & including Afghanistan?

    To place a wreath does not signify agreement with the policies that led to the horrendous casualties on the Somme and nor does it for Qandahar, Helmand etc in Afghanistan.
    It is surely recognition of the fate of some Human beings who were in harms way and paid the ultimate price whether as a volunteer, a conscript or whatever.

    Maybe You really do think it is a "..fad to support" the Canadian Armed Forces at this time, and maybe You are aggrieved at their pay-scales etc. as well as the high regard others of Your nation demonstrate for them, but since when did You not liking/agreeing with all that make anyone a 'thug'?

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  • 462. At 7:55pm on 11 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #448. At 4:14pm on 11 Nov 2010, quietoaktree

    For once we agree, the more Socialist a country is the bigger the armed forces and when it becomes communist then the armed forces are huge, and all to defend the Socialist revolution. Well done QOT, for once you have understood how it works.

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  • 463. At 7:59pm on 11 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #446. At 3:20pm on 11 Nov 2010, popolfi

    Interesting, I'm wondering just what the reaction would be if a local judge in a Western country did the same when Christmas or any other important Christian festival is criticised or banned by a council/commune on the basis that it might offend muslims.

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  • 464. At 8:08pm on 11 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    450 agir
    further to my earlier posting:

    "The Turkish State asked Germany to recruit Turkish Gastarbeiter. Theodor Blank, Secretary of State for Employment, was opposed to such agreements. He held the opinion that the cultural gap between Germany and Turkey would be too big and also held the opinion that Germany needed no futher laborers, because there were enough unemployed people living in the poorer regions of Germany, who could take these jobs. The USA however, put some political pressure on Germany. It wanted to stabilize Turkey. The German Department of Foreign Affairs carried on the negotiations after this and in 1961 an agreement was reached.[23][24] Pressure from German employers in 1962 and 1963 played a key role in ending the two-year limit on the period for which Turkish workers were permitted to stay in West Germany.[25]

    In 1961, a total of 7,116 Turks migrated to Germany to become workers.[26] The recruitment treaty in 1961 made Germany the prime host country for Turkish guest workers and by 1973, some 80% of the Turks in Western Europe lived in Germany, and although this share had decreased to 70% by 1990, Germany remained by far the most important country of settlement for Turkish immigrants."
    That first line puts a completely different slant on this episode. Amazing how history can be re-written even in our own lifetime and with all the information that is available to us. And yet here it is - another myth in the making! As Henry Ford said (although even this was misinterpreted) "History is bunk".

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  • 465. At 8:19pm on 11 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    cool_brush_work, and other British in the blog, this is just to say I took note you mark the Armistice day today, can't say anything usual for us :o) like congratulations with a victory :o), or something, as you mark it as a solemn day, day of Remembrance, as I understand, it became, of all fallen in further wars from 1918 on, together.

    The approach is un-usual for Russians, as all the wars on were so different.
    But an Armistice in war is a capital thing by itself! definitely worthy marking, 10 times over, or how many it would take, soon a hundred it seems.

    Think it's not proper to say cheers

    Not to forget, sure.

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  • 466. At 8:20pm on 11 Nov 2010, nordicum wrote:

    CBW #461

    I think I was not succinct enough.

    I think it is time for society to no longer see the armed forces of any country as "the good ole boys". The era of armies protecting us from some foreign power is over. There is a big push to make sure we all still support these people that have chosen a career that involves making war. Since war is the result of an absolute failure communicating, and since the two figureheads of the warring parties will never duke it out in a boxing ring themselves, they get others to do it for them and then go after the audience watching the boxing match.

    I have no gripe with anything to do with salaries, etc. My point is: They are not heroes. They chose a career. It happens to be revolting to me what many of them end up doing in the name of protecting us, but it is simply a job. Just like mine.

    Under-educated: I know many people in the armed forces. Not really knowledgeable in history, geopolitics, languages, etc. They do not ask questions of where they are going, to what end. But that is the definition of a soldier. One who does not ask questions.

    Thugs: How many more articles must we read about a break-down in soldierly behaviour. Indiscriminate shooting, people and houses, and worse. They feel nervous, and they have guns, and they are allowed to use them.

    My entire point is about today, not history. Times have changed. I hear Peter Gabriel's Wars Without Frontiers in my head. Children in uniform, hiding in trees, shouting out rude names...

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  • 467. At 8:24pm on 11 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #451

    On any day of any time soon it would be nice if the Government of unifiedGermany were to recognise and compensate the thousands of East Germans beaten, tortured, imprisoned etc. by the Stasi.

    You could start the ball rolling with a list of Your victims.

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  • 468. At 8:31pm on 11 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #461. At 7:47pm on 11 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work

    I'm getting the distinct impression from the growing list of 'new' and some old contributors on this blog that this is an orchestrated attack on the UK and especially England. My reaction is to say that if these fools are representative of their various countries then it's time not only for England to leave the EU, but for it to refuse any form of military support to the EU. After all if they so dislike England and they are invaded by another country they won't want our help, will they. Why should our children, grandchildren do what our ancestors did and save their butts. As for those actually living in England, if you don't like it get out and that especially applies to the Scots who in the last decade have done their level best to destroy England.

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  • 469. At 8:40pm on 11 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #466. At 8:20pm on 11 Nov 2010, nordicum

    How conceited you are saying "Under-educated: I know many people in the armed forces. Not really knowledgeable in history, geopolitics, languages, etc. They do not ask questions of where they are going, to what end. But that is the definition of a soldier. One who does not ask questions. ". It is people like you that think they are intelligent that cause wars and it is the ordinary foot soldier that pulls you out of the hole you dug yourselves into. If war is to be avoided then it time to remove from any form of influence the pseudo 'educated (not)' intellectuals (like you) who think themselves superior, and yes QOT and DT I know that was the first objective of communists.

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  • 470. At 8:47pm on 11 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Nordicum

    Re #466

    Thanks for the reply.

    Just so long as we've all got it clear: In Your opinion the modern day Armed Forces of Canada (& by extension the rest of NATO) are a bunch of well-paid volunteers.
    Their behaviour (i.e. all of them as You seem unwilling/unable to distinguish between proper conduct and miscoduct) is not worthwho respect or consideration as they are a bunch of 'under-educated thugs'.

    You say, "..they are not heroes..": And, I would agree, but then Remembrance Services are not about heroes or villains for that matter as I think I explained in my #461.

    I cannot see how You put together Your argument with any degree of rational thought: You are stretching personal views of some people to stereotype entire groups! Someone putting on a military uniform does not automatically mean they are uneducated or a yob anymore than someone trained as a solicitor means they are honest, or wearing a big chef's hat means they can cook!

    I do not agree with Your assessment.

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  • 471. At 8:53pm on 11 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Come to think about it, we, on a national level, don't mark the 1st word war neither the beginning nor the end nor the ones gone in it. which is kind of weird if you start thinking about it, after all 5 million people not a toy. but there is no call for it here on any level, like, no demand, zero. as that war was out-shadowed entirely by much more drastic events at home that left a hundred times' heavier mark, and, like, it seemed like pea-nuts, compared to country's near fall-out that followed.

    and, to start with, a mysterious war, no one attacked us, like what for

    I'm sure there was a reason... But must be they forgot to explain it :o))) to those who fought it back then as it didn't reflect in Russian eh average mind whatsoever On the ground it was like "Germans. them. something." :o) as a reason :o" in the more advanced society levels "France asked us". :o)

    I'm afraid I don't know any better either

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  • 472. At 9:02pm on 11 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #470. At 8:47pm on 11 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work

    "Someone putting on a military uniform does not automatically mean they are uneducated or a yob anymore than someone trained as a solicitor means they are honest, or wearing a big chef's hat means they can cook!"

    Chef's I would probably trust, soldiers also, but the legal 'profession, there is another oldest profession that springs to mind to describe them. As for armed forces being thick, one I know received a MBE for services to education and is a toast master as a hobby now that he is retired, who's the thicko?

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  • 473. At 9:06pm on 11 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Buzet and quietoak,
    I don't entirely agree that a huge army is a measure of agressiveness.
    Mean us, of course :o))
    A huge army can be also a symptom of ineffectiveness :o), longish borderline, and cheap to grab in recruits, for 25 of them are cheaper for a state to grabatise and keep as soldiers than to recruit and pay one career military chap.

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  • 474. At 9:20pm on 11 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    WebAlice

    Re #465

    Yes, the 11th day of the 11th month at 11 o'clock was the moment the guns stopped firing in WW1 (in the west) so it gradually evolved into the National day of mourning in the UK.
    11/11 was in years gone by the official Remembrance Day & the parades etc. to the Cenotaph and War Memorials used to be on that date.
    These modern times for convenience of everyone inc. business, politicians, faiths etc. and in no small part because (like Russia) not every Nation has the same date for Commemoration services the Remembrance Day is the nearest Sunday to the 11th.

    I find it strange that some contribute to this Blog at this time ranting about 'rape', 'murder', 'thuggery' of Armed Forces as if any of that were somehow a new behaviour of Armed Forces from anywhere in the World.

    Some like Margaret Howard denigrate the whole Remembrance Day activities as some sort of jingoistic flag-waving bonanza by her pet-hate, the 'English' - - totally ignoring the part played by Scots, Welsh, Irish, the Commonwealth & NATO - - as if there is some 'nationalist' disease affecting Fathers, Mothers, Wives, Husbands, Children who want to Remember and pay their respects to someone or group from the Armed Forces they knew & miss.
    Then there's DemocThreat & QOT, the pontificating-baitor & the tedious-sniper of all things 'English-speaking': They regard it all as an excuse to be even more gratuitously offensive because they neither understand nor empathise with any of it claiming high matters of principle which they typically express in their lowest possible form.

    WebAlice, 'Armistice' is certainly a "..capital thing..": Would that it were armistice day forever and a day. How much better would the World be if that were so.

    To my mind as You state, "definitely worthy marking..": I am baffled how it is possible to find fault with Commemorating the deaths of Servicemen & Women (whether very recent or in conflicts long since ended).
    Maybe the 'Politicians' do make a grand show of it to boost the National image and maybe some Citizens do pump their chest etc. because they confuse 'Remembrance' & 'Honouring the fallen' with 'Consent' & 'Approval' of how the tragedies came to pass, but I am fairly sure from 40+ years experience most of the people I have met simply want to 'mark' in their mind on a special day someone they knew.

    And of course, when I wrote in a previous Blog of my 'gratitude' to the fallen I wasn't meaning everyone of them was wonderful anymore than I agreed with the conflicts they took part in (for most of them I wasn't born!): No, as is sadly all too clear with the likes of MHoward, DT, QOT who seek ulterior motives in everything an Englishman writes on these Blogs, I was merely remarking on my feelings toward my late father and mother (veterans of WW2).

    Lest I forget.

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  • 475. At 9:25pm on 11 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #473. At 9:06pm on 11 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland

    It's not just the price of cheap recruits that is important to defenders of a Socialist revolution it's also because Socialists/Communists like to boast of full employment. The fact they have to pay very low wages for doing very little is by the way, but then that's how all communist regimes work (not just the USSR or Russia). It's simply a characteristic of politicians that can't bear the thought of losing their empire, and if the EU was to start recruiting a military force of large proportions then we know why.

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  • 476. At 9:28pm on 11 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #458 Agir

    The social security luxuries were not only more than in Turkey --but also more than in Britain.
    Until German re-unification, 6 weeks paid holidays a year (or 5 weeks) were considered the norm--- in Britain a luxury, and in America and Canada an unheard of luxury. Plus the others mentioned.

    Many Turks have German passports AND Turkish identity cards (for their visits to Turkey) I also know Turks (Kurds and Alevi) who do not force their daughters to wear headscarfs. 3 million Turks are estimated to be in Germany.

    In the 70´s and 90´s the only headscarfs on show were those of Kurdish tradition --- AND IN ANKARA ALSO NONE -
    when the Army had the say !

    I suggest you visit any large German town (say Berlin) and just observe-- the problems of Turkey.


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  • 477. At 9:31pm on 11 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    ? a tsar, once upon a time, was going to war
    His tsarina prepared him a bag full of dry breads :o)))
    She has mended his old mantle so very carefuly
    Gave him a pack of tobacco and salt in a cloth.

    Her arms she put on the tsar's breast
    Told him, caressing him by the shine of her eyes
    "Beat them better, or else you will get a reputation of a pacifist,
    And do not forget to grabatise from the enemy some sweet ginger-breads" :o)))))

    So the tsar sees: his army is standing in the yard
    Five sorrowfu soldiers, five merry soldiers, and a colonel
    The tsar said to them: "We won't be scared neither by media nor by strong winds,
    We shall beat the enemy and with a victory will return and hurray."

    ...? tra la
    when in the expedition, the tsar has re-arranged his army -
    The merry ones appointed in charge of supplies,
    And the sorrowful soldiers - he left as soldiers - "Somehow I hope it'll work".

    ...
    ?

    Then, imagine, there came the victorious days!
    The sorrowful soldiers - they didn't come back from the combat
    The colonel - morally un-stable - married a captive gal
    But still, a whole bag of sweet ginger-breads they managed to grabatise home.

    Play, orchestras! Pour out, laughter and songs!
    It is no good, friends, to give way to a momentarily sorrow and weakness,
    For it is no sense, for the sorrowful soldiers, to stay alive

    And, for a second, - sweet ginger-breads - are never enough to give to all.

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  • 478. At 9:31pm on 11 Nov 2010, nordicum wrote:

    #469

    What hole have I dug myself into exactly? Do you know me?

    I would like to see an end to the glorification of war. Remove the army from the pedestal. It is a bloody and destructive business that can usually be avoided.

    Unfortunately it makes lots of money and industry, and provides a great unifying cause for any nation.

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  • 479. At 9:37pm on 11 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Buzet23

    Re #468, #469 & #472

    Yes, at times I get the impression there is something of the sort going on: However, in all honesty such is the generally poor quality of the content of the 'foreign' contributions I can't really see an intellect that could come up with a coherent, concerted attack of any sort.

    E.g. only rather dull, poorly read fellows with little or no knowledge of the UK in 2010 would try to insist it is ruled by a cabal of 'Aristocrats' (QOT), 'Secret Service' (mad greek), 'Monarchy' (MH) & 'Weapons Manufacturers' (DT).

    Cheers.

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  • 480. At 9:42pm on 11 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #462 Buzet 23

    You suspect her Majestys armed forces are Communist ???

    You are already in front of CBW and Threnodio for the booby-prize --how high do you wish to climb up this blogs ladder of irrelevancy ?

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  • 481. At 9:44pm on 11 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    well, Buzet. then we are still communists :o))))))))) I guess, only somewhat capitalistic :o) well, defining Russia is a hopeless task :o) we can leave it aside, for a moment

    But I mean there are heaps of jobs here and there were heaps of jobs in the USSR, it's all the same - only nobody wants them :o))))))
    it's not un-employment we are suffering from or were ever suffering from in the USSR.
    there are always more works here to do than there are live people.

    it's that they paid and pay for most of the jobs lousy - that is the problem. all search for the few, limited in amount, well-paid ones.

    now people look for well-paid.
    before people looked for works giving access to some natural supplies :o), or works in managing services for which you can take bribes, or swap something :o))))) of your produce for something else. Let's say before USSRians wanted jobs with access to something good and comfy. Now simply for well-paid jobs.
    But jobs overall - there are heaps in this market. 75,000 open vacancies in St. Petersburg alone. paid 400 dollars a month. :o(

    I think it's the laws that allow to pay for work the amount that keeps you below the level of existence. Something bad like minimum wage per hour that is so defective or something.

    But, Russia is an exception in many cases, and may be not characteristic in this way as well.

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  • 482. At 9:47pm on 11 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Agir

    Headscarfs --Alevi . I´m not certain generally.

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  • 483. At 9:50pm on 11 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #479 CBW

    --Buzet 23 Just overtook you !

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  • 484. At 9:52pm on 11 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    WAebAlice

    Re #477

    Isn't that always the way of these 'resources' things!?

    Never enough 'sweet ginger-bread' to go round so the greedy Politicos chunter away at other Politicos until discussion gets over-heated & the the poor souls who've never tasted ginger-bread get orders to go and fight, so the Politicos & their friends needn't go without!

    For ginger-bread read oil, water, spices, diamonds, gold, land, space, nuclear...

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  • 485. At 10:00pm on 11 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    In the middle of the night Commando CBW dressed in camouflage, with blackened face and medals rattling quietly surveyed the surroundings. All was suspiciously silent as he took aim then fired. Hell broke loose.

    -- and as usual he missed the toilet bowl.

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  • 486. At 10:10pm on 11 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    Champagne-guy no need to argue. Napalm bombing had been extensively conducted by the Turkish all over Cyprus indiscreminately against military or civilian targets. The reference to British pilots makes reference to the famous case of following such a bombing, Greek ELDYK shooting down 1 of the bombing aircraft, the pilot ejecting, being arrested and found he was... an english speaking blondie... who was quickly picked up by the U.N. forces (the role of whom was 100% clearly organising the whole game there) while of course neither British or Americans ever accepted they lost anything there but cannot blame them either.

    You can go on argue as much as you want about whether those British and/or American planes were just monitoring but then one can only marvel how British ships and airplanes managed to be among Turkish ranks all the way of the invasion.

    Search for yourself, but not in the first pages of google (there you will find nothing of interest in relation to such weird incidents), keep searching in the back pages for stories of the people who lived these events, real witnesses and not narrations of military or politicians.

    I happen to have spoken to people coming from Keruneia who told me the stories of their parents and how they were cleared off by British troops, not Turkish.

    Mind you, there was a clear reason for that : both British as well as the Turkish military responsibles were certain that the entry of Turkish troops would end up in a direct massacre for the simple reason of the deeply barbaric state of the Turkish society back then (as today too), hence both British troops telling the population to flee as well as the drop of Napalm bombs to civilian places was done to "warn" then "terrorise" people out of the northern part. Of course the omen was 100% real - pretty much everywhere the Turks found people that either could not (eg. the sick people, the very old) or refused to leave their houses, they massacred the men, they raped the women.

    Not that there would be anyone saying thank you to British for that either (British were famous for refusing to take any Greeks that were left behind, taking care only of their own kind).

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  • 487. At 10:14pm on 11 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #379 - democracythreat

    "Or do you mean to come across as a simpleton?"

    When and if your ability to argue catches up with your ability to be offensive, please feel free to challenge me again.

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  • 488. At 10:26pm on 11 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #481WIA

    --its the same low wages in Britain --but no jobs and ready to get worse !

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  • 489. At 10:40pm on 11 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #487 Threnodio

    Its not the offense, but the plagiarism that bothers me.

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  • 490. At 10:43pm on 11 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:

    #480 - quietoaktree

    " - how high do you wish to climb up this blogs ladder of irrelevancy ?"

    Stagger back down to earth and we can talk about it.

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  • 491. At 10:45pm on 11 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    web Alice,

    I do apologize in my words. Russians ARE a peaceful communistic (as in group love for their people) They are not aggressive and view war as a thing of defense, indignation of personal attack only. They are much like China---not that or at all agressive except when its easy to acquire empire--

    Remember your about their empire expanding in the olden days before way before communism....practically empty places--much more so than the Americas...

    Do not worry...

    "Work hard, learn, live, and repeat." by Nordicum....above.

    Im going through the worst year at work since 2 1/2 yrs ago. My manager is determined to be the worst I've had--new supervisor.

    So, you are worthy, just keep moving (that is a Black American saying--keep moving...working....they can't hit a moving target

    :)))))


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  • 492. At 10:47pm on 11 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Also, in some way, DemoThreat is correct (right)

    Killing as "collateral damage" is probably wrong.

    If this was a war of defense (as it was originally portrayed welll....

    But is it?

    That IS the question...the age old question its turning out to be...

    And about immigration--the topic?--

    You are screwed, Europe, sorry:)

    Grin and bear it :))))

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  • 493. At 10:52pm on 11 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Also,

    as anyone who has gone to university or college knows,

    words become perverted,

    for instance "racist" has become *any form of prejudice..

    While Communist which mean more "commune or group survival and society"

    has become something else--Stalin tactics

    So, who knows? whether calling someone a "communist" IS an insult,

    Web Alice, BE PROUD of being Communistic ...I say:)

    And let the pieces fall where they may:))))))))))))

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  • 494. At 10:55pm on 11 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #490 Threnodio

    Buzet didn´t tell me that you were responsible for the one pair of dentures after 10pm !

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  • 495. At 10:56pm on 11 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    THIS..HERE...conversation has degenerated into which nation is the worst

    in the Western world,

    while power = worst currently

    power often comes from success, therefore,

    is success evil???

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  • 496. At 11:00pm on 11 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    Nik 486 writes:
    "You can go on argue as much as you want about whether those British and/or American planes were just monitoring but then one can only marvel how British ships and airplanes managed to be among Turkish ranks all the way of the invasion."

    Let them argue and insult you but don't believe anything they tell you.
    "The use of the adjective "perfidious" to describe England has a long history; instances have been found as far back as the 13th century."

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  • 497. At 11:03pm on 11 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    AND deep down inside I'm a Liberal

    A progressive wannabe--

    Therefore when a DemocracyThreat OR alternative history person like NIK,

    comes along, I do not denigrate or try not to

    because, deep down inside they are my

    MUSE

    :))

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  • 498. At 00:12am on 12 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    > 450. At 4:31pm on 11 Nov 2010, aglr wrote:
    > And the attacks perpetuated by the extreme nationalists Germans on Turkish
    > families in the form of burning down their houses ( there are numerous cases)
    > didn't help at all for them to feel that belonging to their resident country.


    Unfortunately from time to time houses are burning.
    Even in Germany.
    Even where Turks live.
    AFAIK there has never been any political group confessing arson, often there were no proofs of arson.

    OK, maybe I missed something so I did some googling. All I found were Turkish conspiracy theories about the German police hiding "THE TRUTH" ... even when Turkish officials were invited to help in the investigations.

    Interestingly in many of theses cases only Alevites where "attacked", but of course the local Turkish press was sure about German culprits.

    Hei, when Alevi houses are burning in Turkey, shouldn't German tourists be blamed, too???

    All reports of internal Turkish conflicts are of course constructed.

    > But if they expect people to become German rather than German citizens then I have to say that this is no different than what Hitler did.

    All I have to say: The same Erdogan who said "Assimilation is a crime against humanity" represents a policy of 100 years of aggressive assimilation, expulsion and religious restrictions: Greeks, Kurds, Alevis, Arameans, Syrians ...(Armenians not to mention.)

    Till today! Lately German private schools in Turkey got the order not to teach German anymore till 5th class...

    What most Germans want is a open, egalitarian melting-pot society, not strange home-brewed oriental nationalists with conspiracy theories, who tell there children to marry their cousins.

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  • 499. At 00:17am on 12 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    quietoak ugh.
    I think you've got enough time here to annoy cool_brush beyond the Armistice weekend.

    will find a good song for cool-brush now in compensation.
    if it will pass through:o)

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  • 500. At 00:24am on 12 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    Sorry. It seems only the German school in Istanbul got their primary education forbidden.

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