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Germans argue over 'failure to integrate'

news | 16:59 UK time, Sunday, 7 November 2010

Thilo Sarrazin is not charismatic, but he has become a man of influence. He has changed the debate over immigration in Germany.

In his view "suppressing emotion is even more dangerous" than broaching subjects that were recently largely off-limits.

Others, like analyst Prof Klaus Kocks, have issued a note of caution. "As a German," he told me, "you have to be more careful than others. You have to accept our history."

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I met Thilo Sarrazin at his old school in Recklinghausen. He was there to promote his book, Germany Abolishes Itself. He is both reviled and admired for its controversial thesis.

Outside the school were a handful of protesters. One banner accused Mr Sarrazin of acting like the Nazis. There were many more, however, who had bought tickets to hear him. His book has sold close to a million copies.

His essential message is that Muslims are either "unwilling or unable to integrate" into Western society. "If the majority of migrants from non-Muslim countries don't have any obvious problem integrating," he told a packed hall, "then the failure to integrate on the part of migrants from Muslim countries can't be due to a fault on our side - because all are treated equally. It has to be because of a characteristic of Muslims themselves."

He is not a great speaker. He deals in statistics. He recognises that some Muslims have integrated, but he believes Germany has gone too far in trying to accommodate them. "People who obey laws are welcome to live here," he told me, but he wants to end Muslim immigration.

For those already in Germany, welfare payments would be dependent on learning German and acquiring language skills. Parents who do not send their children to school (for religious reasons) should be fined. Forced marriages should be forbidden. His message is that Muslim migrants must accept German laws, the constitution and the values of their new society.

His comments have set off a huge debate. "We have a very serious shift in discussion," Prof Kocks told me. What makes his book sales all the more extraordinary is that Thilo Sarrazin said, as part of the publicity for the book, that Jews had a certain gene. He was condemned by mainstream politicians and the remark led to his resignation from the board of the Bundesbank. Even so, the public made his book a best-seller.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel addresses a meeting of young Christian Democrats in Potsdam, 16 October

Last month, Chancellor Angela Merkel said multiculturalism had "failed utterly". What she meant was that some immigrants and others who had lived in Germany for some years were not integrating. Last week at a regional conference for her party in Essen she said: "Of course integration has changed our society, but not at the expense of our core values... We are Christians and this informs everything we do... We are for diversity but we will not abandon our basic beliefs."

What seems to be changing is what is expected from immigrants. The past idea of multiculturalism was that migrants could live in their new societies much as they had done previously in their home countries. Now the emphasis is on them adapting. The fear is that otherwise there will be separate, parallel communities.

So mainstream politicians are speaking out. Joachim Herrmann is the interior minister in Bavaria. His party, the conservative CSU, is in coalition with that of Angela Merkel. He told us in an interview: "You have to accept our laws... Just because you come from a different culture where a man can treat his wife differently, you can't do that here. There can be no compromise."

The premier in Bavaria, Horst Seehofer, has called for an end to immigration from "Turkey and other Arab countries".

Muslims are fearful of where this new tone is heading. Nurhan Solkan is general secretary of the Council of Muslims. She says that the views of the far right have now entered the political mainstream. She points out that many immigrants have integrated well. Many will tell you how when they first came to Germany, no one wanted them to integrate. They were guest-workers. They were barred from citizenship. Nurhan Solkan said more and more people of Turkish origin were moving back to Turkey.

Dr Kocks told me: "I don't want to go back to nationalism again." He does not think that is happening. There is no growth in far-right parties. But he says there is a deep anger in society over stories, for instance, that some female teachers have been shown disrespect by Muslim boys.

Prof Jurgen Habermas, writing in the New York Times last week, said Germany was being roiled by "waves of political turmoil over integration, multiculturalism and the role of the 'Leitkultur', or guiding national culture." He said it was reinforcing trends towards xenophobia. He sees clear dangers in getting immigrants to assimilate "the values of the majority culture and to adopt its customs".

But that is the new mood and, judging by the success of Thilo Sarrazin's book, it seems that many Germans want minorities to positively embrace being German.

Comments

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  • 501. At 00:26am on 12 Nov 2010, MaudDib wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 502. At 00:33am on 12 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    let's try this

    On the Hills of Manchuria, old waltz. 1910?

    Dear moderators, it is in Russian of course but look at the opera surroundings, nothing un-allowed is surely performed in such eh classic halls. The content (of a short song) is basically - The Hills, where our chaps sleep:o(

    Night fell on the hills
    Sleep, sleep by quiet sleep
    let you see in your nightdreams your far-away home

    sleep quietly, memory of you - your native country keeps.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L67oxXOyABA

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  • 503. At 00:34am on 12 Nov 2010, DurstigerMann wrote:

    Sarrazin is irrefutably correct in one point: suppressing worries and problems will only lead to them erupting later on with much more force.
    It is his merit to have brought this issue into the public discussion which cannot be ignored or avoided by either politicians and leftist media.

    Personally, I consider the development of these problems a failure of the German state. From handing out information letters in Turkish and arabic languages as to how illegal(!) immigrants can get access to child benefits as well as social welfare to free language courses. Free benefits for people who never worked and don`t even have German citizenship.
    Kurdish clans from Anatolia and Lebanon are literally laughing at our judicial system. They are driving BMW cars, financed by crime, while receiving social benefits.
    Last year or so the authorities in Berlin wanted to deport a leader of such a clan in Berlin, after they successfully found out his nationality (they burn their passports upon arrival in order to seek Aslym as stateless): Turkish.
    But now he will stay in Germany, because Turkey denaturalized him.
    If I was him, I`d laugh my ass off.


    Recently there was a report about a German girl whose parents came from Lebanon. She married a guy from Lebanon at the age of 17, allegedly out of love. Anyway, he moved to Germany.
    When she wanted to go to University, he brought her to Lebanon, took her German passport and told local authorities that she be kept in Lebanon.
    He is now living in Germany and she is held captive in Lebanon.
    The Federal Foreign Office claims that since Lebanon "grants" citizenship by birth and you cannot lose it no matter what, they can`t do anything.
    They didn`t even investigate against her husband or consider deporting him before her case came to media attention. Even though she mailed them multiple times.

    That`s the German state for you.



    PS: ouch, the posting reads so angry =:o

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  • 504. At 00:57am on 12 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    And Nik,

    Because of perhaps ignorance and NATO sincibilities, I have always favored the Turks over the Greeks--the Greek dislike for America HAS BEEN NOTED IN THE USA--except during the JFK administration--funny that--Jackie always looked Greek after her marriage to Onassis

    more Greek than Maria Callas :)

    And you have noticed??? I havent said anything about being pro Turk and having pro Turk sensibilities ...for your feelings ...funny that--

    have you...that is because you probably didn't want to notice?

    Oh well. :) to you :)

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  • 505. At 01:00am on 12 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    You are a varied and intelligent person, Dustiger Mann

    :)))

    Perhaps that anger has to come out sometime.

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  • 506. At 01:08am on 12 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Malkava,

    MY favorite Nation in this world today, is Japan -- as a another peaceful nation--the past weighs...--counterweight and balance to China (along with the USA--not pacifist! But pacifiscim will seem a requirement ..oh hope..):))

    Because THERE WILL BE ....

    (NOT BLOOD) BUT DEFINITELY COWTOWING TO CHINA:)))

    And I am fascinated BY China:)

    hope that is not an offensive word (above C word) to anyone here. Inform me, Malkava...:))))))

    we have so little knowledge of the "East" and

    we are destined for that era!:))))))))

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  • 507. At 01:17am on 12 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Does anyone have an opinion they DARE to give on Obamas QE (2?) actions---

    tears, laughter???

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  • 508. At 01:21am on 12 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    And, Ms. Margaret Howard,

    My dear, I think that DemocracyThreat (no real names huh--unlike US) is a citizen of Switzerland who is an "expatriate" [sic?] from THE UK.

    Thank you for your sweet and considered opinions here, Ms. Howard,

    David

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  • 509. At 01:53am on 12 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    cool_brush

    When they go to death - they sing

    and, before that, one can be crying

    for the most scary hour in a battle

    is the hour of awaiting the attack.

    The snow around is carved by mines,
    and blackened from the gun-powder
    Explosion! and my friend is dying
    which means, that Death, has passed beyond me.

    My turn is surely coming next
    The hunt is going after me, alone!
    A rocket! asks the sky slope
    and frozen into ice, infantry

    It seems to me I am a magnet
    That I am pulling the mines onto me
    Explosion! And lieutenant is hit
    And Death, again, is passing by me.

    But we can not wait any more
    And we are lead through the trenches
    By animosity, frozen up hard
    Which is making holes in the necks, by bayonnets

    The fight was brief.
    And then,
    we hushed down icy-cold vodka

    And I was carving, with a pen-knife
    From under my nails - blood -
    Not my own.


    1942

    a soldier's ? verse.


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  • 510. At 02:20am on 12 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    beauriful, WA,

    reminds me of War and Peace--it-*WnP-was so intense, I couldn't

    read it....in intense times :)

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  • 511. At 02:37am on 12 Nov 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:

    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20101111/tuk-uk-britain-europe-fa6b408.html

    "Plan set for referendums on EU power transfers

    ...

    Any future government would be forced to call a referendum on a proposal to create a common European army or for Britain to join the euro under a law proposed by the coalition government on Thursday. Skip related content

    The bill introduced into parliament puts into action the six-month-old coalition's promise that no further powers should be transferred from London to Brussels without a referendum.

    The measure is designed to tackle a "profound sense of disconnection felt by British people towards both the institutions of the European Union and how ministers take decisions in Europe on Britain's behalf," Britain's Europe Minister David Lidington told Reuters in an interview."

    EUpris: It does not go far enough.

    Now, today the "EU" is a sick money, jobs, decency, honesty, justice, democracy, trust gobbling monster.

    We need referenda on the Lisbon Rubbish and on membership (prisonership)


    The "profound sense of disconnection felt by British people towards ... the institutions of the European Union" is not felt only by the British people. Remarks on Austrian websites indicate that Austrians feel roughly the same. I am sure others do too.



    The "

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  • 512. At 03:02am on 12 Nov 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11725371

    "UK tourists shunning the cost of the eurozone

    ...

    Eastern European countries without the euro, such as Croatia, have attracted more UK holidaymakers"

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  • 513. At 03:18am on 12 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Ur up early..EU priz--I know ur'e a NATO supporter, but how do YOU feel
    about the idea that Clinton and the UK were manipulated into the "war for Kosovo?"

    AND not to mention the EU interference into ...

    the idea and fascilitation of Kosovo--prt of Serbia, previously--..*incompetently..*alienating important potential *friend-to-Europe-Russian people,

    Not trying to launch YOU, EU Pris., into war w/Russia :O)))

    :))))

    Because Youre a nice contributor guy.

    And funny I'm NOT in the best of moods==personal problem, ..of mine:))

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  • 514. At 03:47am on 12 Nov 2010, MaudDib wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 515. At 06:44am on 12 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Of course I can't produce a Pentagon link".


    Of course you cannot; despite what you specifically claimed earlier, not one admitting authorization/ intentional use of napalm as anti-personel or even larger population centers.
    ["pants on fire"]


    BTW. Napalm WAS used in Greece: against communist rebels on Grammos mountain.


    And more recenty during the Fakland War.

    By Argentinians. AGAINST the Brits.

    Well, tough.

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  • 516. At 06:51am on 12 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    #477

    Nice ballad, Alice.

    Writen by the famous Russian bard: Bulat Okujawa, of course. :)))

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  • 517. At 08:33am on 12 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    MargaretHoward

    Re #496

    Just how gullible and credulous can one biased Scot be!?

    Margaret: Surely even with that absurd Ms Brodie schooling You were made familiar with the term - 'COROLLARY' - - and as You agree with the mad greek's 'proposition' and display an 'instant supplementary deduction' without any of the 'proof' required it is astounding prejudice!

    Proof = evidence, verified documentation, substantiated sources on film, photo, tape etc., a body of reports on the same thing leading to a likely conclusion, the respected word of sufficient number of eye-witness persons...

    Surely, it is not too much to ask for at least 1 of the above to be present in an 'anti-English' diatribe (#486 etc.) before You leap in agreeing it must all be true and 'perfidious Albion' (which is the actual expression - - You can't even get that right!) is at the back of an event!?

    Margaret, though I know the greek chap is unstable I have spent the last 2 hours following his advice to Google & google again through all those back-pages of the Turkish invasion of Cyprus.

    This is what I found:

    Margaret: There is NO "blondie" pilot (brown hair, maybe) taken away by the "..U.N." (how the heck were they in the frame as they don't have armed forces except in Blue Helmets!?).
    Margaret: There is a Pilot shot-down who could speak NO GREEK & was subsequently first interrogated in English before being repatriated to Turkey (English being the 'INTERNATIONAL LANGUAGE' of civilian & military Air Forces).
    Margaret: There are a few isolated account by a Greek Cypriot of English-speaking forces (he doesn't specify soldiers & I can't explain nor counter it, but there's no back-up of any sort) aggressing Greek Cypriots and another account claims to have seen RAF Aircraft.
    I would suggest a rider to the second story - - As the Turkish Airforce has a Red Circle around a White disc & given the speeds, high & low altitudes the chances of mistaking that for the RAF's Blue Circle around around White around Red is fairly high. Added to which is the remarkable fact no RAF or for that matter USAAF has ever come forward to give weight to the story even after 30+ years - - given the money rewards for scandal-leaks in this day & age I find that lack of revelation more convincing than anything else!

    In short Margaret: When are You actually going to bother to VERIFY anything written against the English on any topic before demonstrating pitiful lack of personal veracity & judgement.

    Written before & do so again: Shame Margaret, Your attitude smacks of the worst sort of racism!

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  • 518. At 08:50am on 12 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    #515

    powermeerkat;

    You're resilient I'll give you that. I notice you STILL refuse to admit that the US dropped napalm on civilian villages in Vietnam, I guess the photos of burned children running down the road is even too much for your nationalism to deal with. Blocked it out of your mind or weren't you even an American when that happened? Maybe you subscribe to the theory that "collateral damage" is something other than massacred civilians?

    "BTW. Napalm WAS used in Greece: against communist rebels on Grammos mountain."

    Yeah, supplied by the US! And it wasnt even the situation Nik was talking about! He claimed the British dropped Napalm on Greek Cypriots in 1974. Grammos mountain happened in 1948.

    "And more recenty during the Fakland War.
    By Argentinians. AGAINST the Brits."

    ONE confirmed drop. ONE. Not 40,000 tons like that dropped to "clear landing zones" lmao. ONE drop. But you see you shouldn't be surprised. When a country lead by a military junta invades someone elses territory, that they will use whatever means necessary to "win" including using chemical weapons. But enough about the US, the same applies to Argentina.

    "Well, tough".

    Nice to see your true colours come out at long last. Add that to your thinly disguised glee and mad dash to post whenever something negative happens in Europe, whilst refusing to post anything negative about the US (too much choice?) and what you have is Marcusaurelius2 (Mk2), as I always said.

    One final point. If you are that gullible that you believe Pentagon stonewalling and if you believe that the Mk 77 firebomb is not napalm in all but name, and if you STILL believe that the US never deliberately dropped napalm on civilians, then perhaps its you who should rethink posting technical or military matters on here. It may be an interest of yours, and it may provide a sense of personal satisafaction to watch European countries,people or companies suffer, but it clearly isnt a strength.

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  • 519. At 08:58am on 12 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #480. At 9:42pm on 11 Nov 2010, quietoaktree

    Look in the mirror and ask yourself which (if any) post of yours has not invented and misconstrued the original words of the poster you are replying to.

    How can anybody with even half a brain suggest that my post linked the UK forces with communism, it was about LARGE armies and if there is one thing certain the UK does not have a LARGE army, and most certainly it is not communist. GOT IT this time!

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  • 520. At 09:07am on 12 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #496. At 11:00pm on 11 Nov 2010, margaret howard

    Now there you go again mixing up England with France this time, as for the Scots, they were considered barbarians at the time of the Romans so little has changed.

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  • 521. At 09:57am on 12 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    504. At 00:57am on 12 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:
    """And Nik,
    Because of perhaps ignorance and NATO sincibilities, I have always favored the Turks over the Greeks"""

    Do not worry. There is a timeless admiration by many westerners of the Turks - those that are attracted by their extreme violence (especially their sadistic nature) or those that like their simplistic minds and servile nature towards the "progressed west" all while treating as subhumans the local orthodox christians (Greeks, Serbians, Bulgarians etc.) who themselves are not at all docile and servile to the westerners...

    """--the Greek dislike for America HAS BEEN NOTED IN THE USA"""

    No it had never been noticed. It was America that chose it to be like that since the very beginning of its dealings in the area: keep Greece under control for containing it, always provide all support to Turkey. When USA is backing up all Turkish aggression against Greece what do you expect Greeks to do? However the most funny is that while Greeks are against USA, this is not in any civilisational way, this is only in a geopolitical way. For example Greek Americans are famed for being of the most conscious US citizens. Greeks in Greece are not rejecting Americans as Americans but they are rejecting the geopolitical policies of their leadership. On the other hand, Turks though docile and servile to Americans like they had been for the British, deep in their hearts are rejecting America in civilisational terms and no matter all the huge help from the US they will turn their backs as soon as they are in position of power.

    """--except during the JFK administration--funny that--Jackie always looked Greek after her marriage to Onassis"""

    Onassis was a private businessman and by no means representing Greeks - whose opinion on him varies: they liked his direct personality but still considered him to be a mafia-businessman that sunk too many ships to get the insurance claims. Onassis had gotten rich thanx to the Americans, mingled in subway-businesses in Middle East, but then refused to play all their games, hence Americans wrote him off their list. When US (para)state killed JFK, Jackie chose Onassis just to show off that she now goes with the man the US services despised, as a rejection of the US state her husband was meant to service. Onassis married her just for pure reasons of showing off. Too bad for him since American agents took revenge by killing his son - and even the suicide of his daughter is something not certain.

    """more Greek than Maria Callas :)"""

    Haha. Poor Maria
    """And you have noticed??? I havent said anything about being pro Turk and having pro Turk sensibilities ...for your feelings ...funny that--"""

    Why would your pro-turkishness hurt my feelings? There are many people attracted by the Fanatic Germans, the Barbaric Imperial Japanese and Genocidal Turks. You are free to pick your likes and dislikes.

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  • 522. At 10:11am on 12 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    WebAlice

    Re #509

    Thank You for sharing those verses with us. Not one I knew.
    Very evocative: Your translation, I assume.

    The poem has the atmosphere of the WW1 era, but knowing something of the intense maelstrom of Russian experience in WW2 it is its equal in that epoch.

    For Your consideration a much shorter and no less sensitive Russian poem is set out below (MHoward, DT, QOT look away now - - these 4 translated lines involve the reader in a semblance of 'respect' for those who have gone before - - a sentiment with which You are all wholly unfamiliar):


    Remembrance

    Of those loved way-companions who made dear
    With their companionship our world of strife and stir,
    Say not with Sadness: 'They are no longer here!'
    But say with Gratitude: 'They were.'

    By: Vassili Andreievich Zhucovski (1783 - 1852)

    WebAlice, when in the company of sincere souls there's always room & time for, "Cheers"!

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  • 523. At 10:46am on 12 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Kurdish clans from Anatolia and Lebanon are literally laughing at our [German] judicial system."


    What do you mean by Kurdish clans?


    We've been told here repeatedly by usual suspects that Turkish Kurds were almost entirely wiped out.


    And Iraqi Kurds - by USAF.

    I guess during the Operation "Provide Comfort". :-)))

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  • 524. At 11:01am on 12 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 525. At 11:05am on 12 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "And you have noticed??? I havent said anything about being pro Turk and having pro Turk sensibilities ...for your feelings ...funny that--"




    Stevenson, that's hardly enough.

    You haven't said you were staunchly pro-Greek.

    That suffices here.

    And a fact that you haven't mentioned you're using napalm to lit a fire in your kitchen is suspect enough.

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  • 526. At 11:10am on 12 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Eastern European countries without the euro, such as Croatia, have attracted more UK holidaymakers"



    The same can be said about Bulgaria, Czechia, Hungary, Poland, Romania, etc.

    [data about an increase of Western, incl. British, tourism to those countries are readily available in a public domain.]

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  • 527. At 5:18pm on 12 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #519 Buzet 23

    I apologize --I understood a stupid reply was required to your stupid statement !

    Of course America has the largest army with Britain a close 3rd (?) on world weapons sales and expenditure and both are not Socialist !

    We agree then, that the British armed forces are `much ado about nothing´?

    With them sharing their ´Rubber Duckies´ with the French and Threnodio and yourself dentures, the topic appears to be closed ?

    However it would be considerate if Threnodio or yourself informed me of the change in shared denture usage times !


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  • 528. At 5:51pm on 12 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #527

    Never was the sobriquet, 'prize prat' more deserving!

    Just because the SchutzStaffel are no longer recruiting doesn't give You any excuse for stamping Your little feet in irritation at everyone else.

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  • 529. At 6:03pm on 12 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #528 CBW

    Sorry , my hatched location remains personal.

    I trust the usual ´Collateral damage´was easily cleaned ?

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  • 530. At 6:24pm on 12 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #529

    Nobody gives a damn about Your "...hatched location..": Everybody reading these Blogs recognises the off-spring of the 'I was only following orders' cadres!
    Drop that arm! Don't You know it's illegal in the Republic!?

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  • 531. At 7:16pm on 12 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    520 QOT
    oh oh, seems you annoy certain military gentlemen on this blog. Beware, having just read an article on the 14 civilians killed by the British army on Bloody Sunday I think you might have to learn to duck - after all unlike the Nazis they are still roaming the world.

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  • 532. At 7:34pm on 12 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    He is an American...I had thot, CBW

    Have you noticed that he posts during American time zones?

    Sorry, QOT, for outing you:))

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  • 533. At 7:38pm on 12 Nov 2010, mcdanielfrank wrote:

    I applaud Margaret Howard's accurate reminder of historical dates of muslim conquests of former christian lands. It is always helpful to have an historical perspective. And as history goes, the dates of those conquests are rather recent.

    However, I disagree with her somewhat ambiguous analysis of the causes of America's civil war, which were in very little respect caused by sectarian disagreements.

    America has long been a haven for immigrants. All have been welcomed, some more warmly than others, unfortunately; but they have been expected to integrate, to learn the language,to foreswear previous allegancies, and to adopt the values of their new land. Divided loyalties seldom strengthen a nation.

    Americans look with respect to our european roots. Your history and culture are our history and culture. Immigrants from Italy, Germany, Ireland, Britain, France, Scandanavia, as well as from Africa and Asia have made America what it is.

    From my perspective, I see no reason to fear or codemn the pride and patriotism one feels in his nationality, be it German, British, French or whatever. During the World Cup, I shared the pride so many felt as they flew their German, French and British flags. Seventy years seems a long enough time for Germans to self-flagellate over the sins of their grandparents. One's heartfelt pride in his nationality and love of country should not be cause for fear, either from one's countrymen or from others. "Breathes there a man with soul so dead, who never unto himself hath said, this is my own my native land . . ."

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  • 534. At 8:02pm on 12 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #531

    Ah yes! I remember it well!

    Doubtless as does Martin McGuninness, self-confessed deputy commander of the Belfast I.R.A who 'never fired a shot' on that or any other day and were entirely innocent of provoking any response from the Paras - - well, so the labyrinthine report intothe massacre would have dumb lasses believe - - now, if Margaret really wants to know about matters N.I. maybe she could be bold enough to ask where the 'missing 19 bodies' of victims of the IRA, inc. a Roman Catholic mother of 9 children are buried?
    The dreadful 'crime' of the kidnapped, tortured & never-seen-again mother: She offered comfort to a dying Scottish soldier shot by IRA sniper: Oh Margaret, if You even had an inkling of how disgraceful Your attitude to Your fellow countrymen is You'd hide in shame tonight and never come out.

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  • 535. At 8:40pm on 12 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    533 mcdanielfrank

    Thank you for your observations, they were much appreciated. Yes, you are right about my American civil war analysis and I don't claim to be familiar enough with the causes to make such an assessment. Unfortunately I was and shouldn't have been riled by a posting by one of your fellow Americans, Marcus Aurelius, who wrote: "They brought these people to Europe, encouraged them to come. As usual with their hair brained schemes that they never think through clearly or logically to its end, only considering the expediency of the moment, it blew up in their faces." His constant sniping at all things European and disrespect for our culture and achievements got the better of me.


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  • 536. At 9:27pm on 12 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    WebAlice, when in the company of sincere souls there's always room & time for, "Cheers"!
    ________

    Aha. cool_brush, I was about to quote for you exactly one very cheerful native Russian song, when a very sad discovery eh befell on me :o))))))

    A friend says "Alice, this is
    "a British Music Hall favourite".

    youtubie says "Native American" :o)))))))

    So, here, - hello, MaudDib! we've got the second occurance of a "native Russian American song" - to top "tail is hit, nose is hit! but the machine is going on, upon the honest word (that is, a prayer), and on one wing."
    :o(

    twice in two weeks' time!
    Whose nerves will stand that?

    Give me my Iron Fence back! in this mode there will be nothing holy left in the country shortly! :o))))))))

    Simply incredible. how those Americans get everywhere! into the native Russian songs! out of nowhere!

    Now, the correct :o)))))) text - listen to the record the link is below:

    I found once a charming pub (charming pub)
    Wine there costs just a fiver (just a fiver)
    And there I sit, with a bottle on a window-sill
    Don't cry, my sweetheart over me!

    Oh, no! I know, dear me! Dear me!
    That you shall find another gal (another gal)
    And you are lying to me that you'll be back
    And simply silly is your song!

    Oh please be good and healthy darling, I'm leaving for a long time, and when I'll be back - don't know,
    So far - Good bye!


    Just you dare to come back! To come back!
    I'll meet you with a frying pan! frying pan :o)))
    I'll give you such eh kicks and shouts for the road
    That you'll forget your silly song!

    Oh no, please be good and healthy darling I'm leaving for a long time, and when I am back - don't know, so far -
    Farewell!
    Farewell! And don't forget your friend! (don't forget)
    Your friend is leaving to the long road (longish road)
    I'll try to pop in back to you I think :o))
    One of those days! One of those days! One of those days!

    When soldiers are drinking wine (drinking wine)
    They girls await them anyway (any way)
    Sure, you'll be bored a bit without me
    But may be, after all, I will be back! :o)))))))


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPV5DBoN4Po

    Now, where on earth, could we have grabatised it? It is around for so long time. Must be, :o))))) right when it was sang first in 1880 something :o))))

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  • 537. At 9:28pm on 12 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #534. At 8:02pm on 12 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work

    Funny enough I recall the words of a good Scottish friend who was a prison officer in the biggest prison in NI, long kesh, he took great pleasure in placing some IRA inmates into the intensive care when they attacked him, can you blame him MH as you really have no clue?

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  • 538. At 10:36pm on 12 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #532 Stevenson

    Sorry, I do shift work !

    `They seek him here, They seek him there
    Those Frenchies seek him everywhere.
    Is he in heaven or is he in hell ?
    That damned elusive Pimpernel ´

    CBW

    Must you always ignore history to prove you point ?

    --England brutally Colonized them for hundreds of years !

    --Another minor detail ?

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  • 539. At 10:54pm on 12 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    537 Long Kesh

    "The English stole all the land from the Irish Catholics, even passing laws making it illegal for Catholics to own land. Then the English imported Protestants from England, Scotland and Wales to be the landowners, the bosses, to rule over the Catholics. Eventually the "real" Irish threw the English out, but the English managed to hold onto that part of Ireland that they call "Northern" Ireland, although in fact it is simply a part of the nation of Ireland in the North, occupied territory, still partly subject to British rule.
    One of the prisons in Northern Ireland was named Long Kesh. The English have changed the name, trying to re-write history, but the hunger strikers of Long Kesh have not been forgotten. Some call Long Kesh a concentration camp, since for decades the English practiced preventative detention, simply rounding up masses of Irish people and throwing them into prison, holding them without charges or rights."
    Now who really has no clue? Any of those 'facts' lies or a true account of history? There are as many misguided Scots as there are misguided people in any nation and like many other professions similar to prison guards and soldiers, a bit of sadism doesn't come amiss!

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  • 540. At 10:58pm on 12 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #531 MH

    To misquote WC Fields

    `I love nationalists --fried´

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  • 541. At 11:33pm on 12 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #539. At 10:54pm on 12 Nov 2010, margaret howard

    "There are as many misguided Scots as there are misguided people in any nation "

    If you are representative of the new generation then boy are you misguided, the Scot I knew was normal, you are most certainly not. BTW an awful lot of prison officers were Scots as I used to know many since my ex-father-in-law was also a prison officer.

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  • 542. At 00:00am on 13 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    541 Buzet
    Don't try and sidestep the issue by picking out and quoting my remark about Scots. What about the rest of 539 - all misguided lies? And why were English soldiers patrolling the streets of Northern Ireland and not Irish soldiers patrolling the streets of England? Unless of course you still think the English were god's chosen people to 'rule' over, in Kipling's words, the lesser breeds and not the ruthless imperialists of history who would still be rampaging across the globe if the two world wars hadn't put a stop to it.

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  • 543. At 00:44am on 13 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #542 MH

    The trauma of Empire loss is an apparent serious illness afflicting the usual suspects. None of them has even tried to discover if their ´Glorious History´is true or not.

    Those who have tried and reach a different conclusion are called anti-British for not accepting the unquestionable.

    ´The land of the uninformed´is the preferable British state of mind-- both for the past and present.

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  • 544. At 06:52am on 13 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    #539 margaret howard

    --✄-- The English stole all the land from the Irish Catholics, even passing laws making it illegal for Catholics to own land. Then the English imported Protestants from England, Scotland and Wales to be the landowners, the bosses, to rule over the Catholics --✄--

    What a Coincidence... :))))))

    That's exactly the same story with Cyprus and as always Britain is the puppeteer...Let's see...

    The English stole all the land from the Cyprus Orthodox, even passing laws to the Orthodox like the Cyprus tribute. Then the English imported Muslims from Turkey (Turkey invasion), to be the landowners, the bosses, to rule over the Orthodox

    North Ireland occupied land = North Cyprus occupied land

    Where British are playing around something North are always created at the end...

    --✄-- One of the prisons in Northern Ireland was named Long Kesh. --✄--

    Same prisons in Cyprus: were named British Sovereign Base Areas

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  • 545. At 07:51am on 13 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Poor English--people so much responsibility and

    so little power,

    CBW, Threnodio, and Buzet, remember your people are the new

    "circular file" for the world

    the trash bin ...

    I think not.:))

    Americans will love you for that--oh, blameless Americans, (our leaders)

    we just inherited your sins--well the British WERE good for Some things!

    :))))

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  • 546. At 07:53am on 13 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Nik,

    I will say this--

    Your nation created the modern world

    by extension, BECAUSE

    your thought processes, remembered,

    started the Renaissance--

    Remember?????

    (not the Romans)

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  • 547. At 07:55am on 13 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Because this thread is soooo long,

    why don't you Nik,

    tell us ignorants,

    how you came by your histories

    that we do not know--stories

    of how Greece has been punished for

    Turkey's sins???

    Maybe then we can understand your...candor:))))

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  • 548. At 07:57am on 13 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Reminds me of a "song" from a while ago,

    Where'd u meet him, where'd u meet him, where'd u meet him,

    the leader of the pack?

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  • 549. At 07:59am on 13 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    BTW,

    People, to see something slightly creepy, watch

    "The Book of Eli"

    Stylishly filmed, interestingly timed -- our midterm elections :))

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  • 550. At 09:08am on 13 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #542. At 00:00am on 13 Nov 2010, margaret howard

    As always foolish and misguided, your comment about "And why were English soldiers patrolling the streets of Northern Ireland and not Irish soldiers patrolling the streets of England?" is so self explanatory that it beggars belief. If there had been a need to have soldiers on the streets of England they would be from whichever regiment(s) was based in the area concerned. It would not have mattered whether they were Irish, Welsh or Scots as they are all soldiers of the crown.

    As for Ireland, well just re-read your history books a bit better, the key words in why it all happened was the churches and religion, for hundreds of years policy was led by church rivalry, whether that was Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, Presbyterian or Dissenter. That the parties involved were English and Scots is part of that rivalry and the 'plantation' immigrants were just pawns, the UK, as most know was ruled by an unholy alliance of church and crown, and the various religions were on a crusade. Consequently this led to violence and unjust laws, just as on the mainland with the inquisition. If you want to levy blame then identify the true culprits, the Church of England and the Church of Ireland (which was Anglican).

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  • 551. At 09:14am on 13 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    #547 Stevenson

    --✄-- Because this thread is soooo long, why don't you Nik, tell us ignorants, how you came by your histories that we do not know--stories of how Greece has been punished for Turkey's sins??? --✄--

    Don't miss to read every single one of this Turkish techniques mostly described by their own media: (but I'm sure you already know all this)

    Turkish technique 1

    Turkish technique 2

    Turkish technique 3

    Turkish counter move to number 3 technique

    Turkish technique 4

    Turkish technique 5

    Turkish technique 6

    Turkish technique 7

    Turkish technique 8

    I can go on forever...

    like the Turkish occupation in Cyprus against all UN laws and the "casus belli" by their parliament against Greece being the only country on earth not recognizing UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA and by so constantly creating air-dog fights not recognizing our frontiers...and so on like Catholic priest murdered as well as journalists etc....

    or maybe that:

    Patriarch Feels "Crucified" in Turkey (1/2)

    Patriarch Feels "Crucified" in Turkey (2/2)

    and so on...

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  • 552. At 10:02am on 13 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    ok its to bad:) Ellinas...

    im sorry

    Mexico used to say ..

    "so far from God, so close to the USA"

    ur version

    is so far from..so c.. to istanbul ..

    if our leaders have used u wrongly i 4 one am so sorry:)))

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  • 553. At 10:04am on 13 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Remember, then, Nik and Ellinas,

    One of ur islands is worth the whole of ur enemy's..

    culture and history.

    Perhaps that is the way to view it:)))

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  • 554. At 10:06am on 13 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    The interesting thing,

    is Ellinas,

    is when I talk to Arabs in America..studying..I hope peace,

    they say Turkey is the closest thing to a European style nation in the

    Muslim world.

    hmmmm

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  • 555. At 11:01am on 13 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    550 Buzet wrote:
    " the 'plantation' immigrants were just pawns, the UK, as most know was ruled by an unholy alliance of church and crown, and the various religions were on a crusade. Consequently this led to violence and unjust laws, just as on the mainland with the inquisition."

    As you can see these invasions of Ireland by England started at a time when England was still catholic and had nothing to do with religious wars on the continent.
    "Plantations in 16th and 17th century Ireland were the confiscation of land by the Government of England and the colonisation of this land with settlers from England and Scotland.
    The Plantations were established throughout the country by the confiscation of lands occupied by Gaelic clans and Hiberno-Norman dynasties, but principally in the provinces of Munster and Ulster. The lands were then granted by Crown authority to colonists ("planters") from Britain. This process began during the reign of Henry VIII and continued under Mary I and Elizabeth I. It was accelerated under James I, Charles I and Cromwell."

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  • 556. At 11:07am on 13 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    Don't worry about that

    --✄-- is when I talk to Arabs in America..studying..I hope peace, they say Turkey is the closest thing to a European style nation in the Muslim world. --✄--

    Just for information: Turks are not Arabs instead they are Mongols and the below map is describing their current bipolar situation:

    Referendum results

    the majority (Deep Turkey), around 58%, have voted yes, favoring Islamic Erdogan for the package of proposed constitutional changes he asked.

    the other 42% (mostly the Minor Asia) are Kemalists that care more for a European style nation but as you saw by the above techniques they cared only for the style (until 2002 they were for almost a century the only political power in command)

    The most of the Kurds (15 to 20 million of the whole population) they abstained for voting

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  • 557. At 11:20am on 13 Nov 2010, Portugal OUT of the EU wrote:

    I want to live and work in Germany in the near future and I am already learning German, so I can successfully integrate into German society and make the most of German culture. I have been to Germany a handful of times and while I could read and understand several German words in shops, cafés, train stations, etc, I felt like a stranger and quite lost as I was nowhere near fluent in German. I felt I couldn't make the most of my visits to Germany because I was not fluent in German. Yes most Germans speak English but there are no English translations at train and metro stations, and in so many other public places. That is why I am learning German, BEFORE I move to Germany. I did the same thing before moving to the UK and learn English BEFORE leaving Portugal. This will enable me to find accommodation more easily, to purchase a car more easily and it will make a good impression on the German people, as they will see I am trying my very best to increase my fluency in German. I would love to have an explanation into how some Turkish immigrants have lived in Germany for several years and still have very poor German language skills yet they all seem to be able to live quite comfortably....

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  • 558. At 12:57pm on 13 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #555. At 11:01am on 13 Nov 2010, margaret howard

    To quote "The English Reformation was the series of events in 16th-century England by which the Church of England first broke away from the authority of the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church. These events were, in part, associated with the wider process of the European Protestant Reformation, a religious and political movement which affected the practice of Christianity across most of Europe during this period."

    and "Based on Henry VIII's desire for an annulment of his marriage, the English Reformation was at the outset more of a political affair than a theological dispute. The reality of political differences between Rome and England allowed growing theological disputes to come to the fore.[1] Before the break with Rome, it was the Pope and general councils of the church that decided doctrine. Church law was governed by the code of canon law with final jurisdiction in Rome. Church taxes were paid straight to Rome and it was the Pope who had the final say over the appointment of bishops. The split from Rome made the English monarch the Supreme Governor of the English church by "Royal Supremacy", thereby making the Church of England the established church of the nation."

    AND more importantly "The English crown did not begin asserting full control of the island until after the English Reformation, when questions over the loyalty of Irish vassals provided the initial impetus for a series of military campaigns between 1534 and 1691. This period was also marked by an English policy of plantation which led to the arrival of thousands of English and Scottish Protestant settlers."

    As you can see from these excerpts England was not Catholic at the point of 'plantations' and there was very much a 'fight' between the different religions as I said earlier. This was to all intents and purposes a religious crusade to convert or remove Catholics. It is religion and religious leaders (as always) you should be blaming for Ireland's history.

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  • 559. At 1:10pm on 13 Nov 2010, MACEDNVS wrote:

    After the genocidal oppression they have meted out to numerous minorities, the Turks are really in no position to demand tolerance of others.

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  • 560. At 1:11pm on 13 Nov 2010, democracythreat wrote:

    threnodio_II wrote:
    "#379 - democracythreat
    "Or do you mean to come across as a simpleton?"
    When and if your ability to argue catches up with your ability to be offensive, please feel free to challenge me again."

    I'm taking that as a "yes".

    When you've had a good cry and taken off your Union Jack cape, we'll discuss the matter further.

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  • 561. At 3:45pm on 13 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:


    558 buzet
    At 550 you claimed:
    "As for Ireland, well just re-read your history books a bit better, the key words in why it all happened was the churches and religion, for hundreds of years policy was led by church rivalry, whether that was Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, Presbyterian or Dissenter."

    Religion had nothing to do with it as both Henry Vlll and then 'Bloody Mary' were catholics during this land grab in England's century long struggle for 'Lebensraum' which eventually led to the ruthless acquisition of vast swathes of the globe grabbed from the people who lived there.
    As Ellinas writes at 544: "That's exactly the same story in Cyprus
    and as always Britain is the pupeteer.The English stole all the land from the Cyprus Orthodox, even passing laws to the Orthodox like the Cyprus tribute. Then the English imported Muslims from Turkey (Turkey invasion), to be the landowners, the bosses, to rule over the Orthodox" - a story repeated all over the globe.

    You can paint whatever pretty picture you like or have been told at school, but that is what it amounted to - naked aggression and conquest.

    "Henry VIII's creation of the Kingdom of Ireland in 1542 was not recognised by Europe's Catholic powers. In 1555 Mary obtained a papal bull confirming that she and Philip were the monarchs of Ireland, and thereby the Church accepted the personal link between the kingdoms of Ireland and England. Furthering the Tudor conquest of Ireland, the midlands counties of Laois and Offaly were shired and named after the new monarchs respectively as "Queen's County" and "King's County". Their principal towns were respectively named Maryborough (now Portlaoise) and Philipstown (now Daingean). Under Mary's reign, English colonists were settled in the Irish Midlands to reduce the attacks on the Pale (the colony around Dublin)"

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  • 562. At 4:23pm on 13 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:


    So as far as I understand, the Turks and Brits are to be blamed for all Evil in the world.

    I am happy reintegrating into my "home" in the UK, but I am finding it hard to take off my fez and stop belly dancing, whilst making plans to invade Greece, but I will do my best to stop this for the sake of world peace.

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  • 563. At 5:03pm on 13 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    As Ellinas writes at 544: "That's exactly the same story in Cyprus
    and as always Britain is the pupeteer.The English stole all the land from the Cyprus Orthodox, even passing laws to the Orthodox like the Cyprus tribute. Then the English imported Muslims from Turkey (Turkey invasion), to be the landowners, the bosses, to rule over the Orthodox" - a story repeated all over the globe.

    In the 1500's when the Ottomans invaded Cyprus, it was being run by the Venetians and the orthodox were under severe oppression.
    The freedom of worship was allowed under Ottoman rule.
    The British did not import muslims to Cyprus, Cyprus had Muslims living there among the various other communities, since Cyprus was not a "Greek" Island, it was frequented by and inhabited by many different ethnicities, from Africa, Arab countries, European Countries, it is well known for the history of pirates there....

    So please cut the "Cyprus was Greek and the British stole it fairytale" and get real.

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  • 564. At 6:33pm on 13 Nov 2010, popolfi wrote:

    > 562. At 4:23pm on 13 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:
    > So as far as I understand, the Turks and Brits are to be blamed for all Evil in the world.

    Exactly, but not long anymore! Soon "European" troops and Gaelic militia will assimilate England with napalm.

    Then you will happily learn howto hork down Schweinebratwurst while yodeling Hitlers name.

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  • 565. At 7:22pm on 13 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Stevenson Re "location"


    Perhaps it's simply another Operation Praetorius? :)

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  • 566. At 7:31pm on 13 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    563. At 5:03pm on 13 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    """In the 1500's when the Ottomans invaded Cyprus, it was being run by the Venetians and the orthodox were under severe oppression. The freedom of worship was allowed under Ottoman rule."""

    This bull's waste about Ottoman "tolerance" has arisen in the late years when the Turks started wishing enterring the EU. The fact that catholics back then were as barbaric or even more than the Ottomans does not justify anything. The fact that Ottomans used the orthodox church leaders to press down on the christians means absolutely no tolerance at all. You are semi-illiterate. Go read the full story and spare us your "tolerance" please. We want no more "tolerance" yours. There were about 32 rebellions and 4 major revolutions done by Greeks in the 400 years of Ottoman rule and you come here to tell us that these people revolted against the tolerant Ottoman Empire? Your views are not only uneducated but immensely racist. And it is this kind of modern Turkish racism teaching your youth that your "redicolo Imperium" was as-if tolerant and that ungrateful christians rebelled (so they deserved to be slaughtered). We know too well your kind of thinking to let you pass your venomous views.

    So please go tell that to the naif and the uneducated, here you talk with the educated ones, so come up with your real face dear, we won't bite you if you are sincere you know.

    """The British did not import muslims to Cyprus, Cyprus had Muslims living there among the various other communities, since Cyprus was not a "Greek" Island, it was frequented by and inhabited by many different ethnicities, from Africa, Arab countries, European Countries, it is well known for the history of pirates there...."""

    OOooo the usual justification of the Ottomans and British. Yes Cyprus had also other communities indeed. 90% Greeks and 10% other communities the bulk of whom were present there following usually an oppressor.

    All that coming from a Turk whose country till 90 years back was habitated by 45% christian population. Give back their lands to the historic habitants Constantinople, Smyrna and Trapezounta and then speak of Cyprus being a hub-for-all to justify your crime of invading, slaughtering and ethnically cleansing.

    Your logic is pure poison dear, pure poison.

    It is worthwhile however to note that when the Ottomans left the island to the British, the bulk of the muslims who till then were about 30% o the island left the island while not being forced to do so (why? wasn't it their island? apparently it was not!!!) leaving there a tiny muslim minority of then 5% which by WWII rose to 8% (due to their supersized families). To be noted that some of them had declared their wish to change to christianity (since those who stayed were often local Cypriots who had changed religion either being forced or on will to serve their interests). But British fell in to play this tiny muslim commmunity against the Greeks. Till WWII the quasitotality of the British local Cypriot militia were muslims - i.e. coming from the 6% of the population - if that was not a clear plan then what? If the fact that the 5-8% muslim community in the 1950s had 50 times more weapons per person than the Greek community with Turkey being able under British "tolerance" (i.e. directo co-operation) to pass about 10,000 rifles to be given to the infamous MIT, the local muslim terrorist organisation whose first targets of course were the muslim mosques (to accuse as-if Greeks doing so) as well as killing those muslims deemed too friendly to Greeks and the idea of peaceful cohabitation of the two communities.

    """So please cut the "Cyprus was Greek and the British stole it fairytale" and get real."""

    You Turks recognise only "power". Hence for you a land belongs only to the one who rules it. Hence the island was Ottoman and then British and last time it was Greek it had to be 10,000 years ago or somethin ... The fact that the island was constantly habitated by Greeks no matter who happened to govern it simply escapes your logic.

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  • 567. At 8:47pm on 13 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    #563 Go4aa1

    You myopically overpassed all Turkish techniques at my 551 #post without saying nothing to this and you tell me to cut the "Cyprus was Greek and the British stole it fairytale" and get real?

    What can i say! I better quote Albert Einstein: Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

    Anyway...

    At your #140 post you said to Nik:

    "...see that you wish to start a historical debate.. that is not my subject area at present here..."

    or

    "...However, I get so bored that whenever I speak to a person of Greek ethnicity, they always have to bring up the Ottoman empire.. goodness sake get over it and focus on the subject at hand..."

    and you first speak to me by making this off topic argument that In the 1500's when the Ottomans invaded Cyprus, the orthodox people were oppressed by the Venetians and that the freedom of worship was allowed under Ottoman rule?

    And who cares! And why i ought to defend the Venetians? Anyway again.

    1) Never mention the Ottomans in my above posts
    2) Ottomans invaded Cyprus at 1570 and not at the 1500's
    3) Venetians simply replaced the Lusignan dynasty not changing quite nothing from the Lusignan civil feudal code (Assise di Gerusalemme )
    4) Lusignian before the Venetians were giving tribute of 8.000 ducati to Mameluk sultans of cairo and the Venetians continue from time to time the same policy even after 1517 when the ottomans with sultan "selim I" conquered Egypt.
    5) The Latin and the orthodox episcopates were 4 for each cult
    6) Latin Archbishop Filippo Mocenigo at that time made references complaining for the promiscuousness of the worships

    So i wonder what about the Venetians?

    as for the freedom of worship by Turks in Cyprus:

    Medieval churches being destroyed and looted in Northern Cyprus

    and

    Pope Benedict receives photos of Turkish destroyed churches from the President of Cyprus. After reviewing the album, the Pontiff reportedly exclaimed, “What destruction!”

    As for the British and the Muslims with a bit of sarcasm i clearly refereed to the blessings by the British of the Turkish invasion and occupation of around 150,000 Turkish settlers in violation of the Geneva Convention and various UN resolutions

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  • 568. At 8:49pm on 13 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    don't get ur knickers in a twist!

    My point was just to correct another poster, in regards to how the Turks got to Cyprus.

    Please save your energy for your brain functions.

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  • 569. At 9:15pm on 13 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    #568 Go4aa1

    --✄-- My point was just to correct another poster, in regards to how the Turks got to Cyprus. --✄--

    Like thieves and criminals! Correction accomplished.

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  • 570. At 9:25pm on 13 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    #568

    Forgot to mention! As for the rest about Cyprus and since you care so much for others...

    ...please save your energy for your brain functions by simply go reading #566 post from Nik

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  • 571. At 10:21pm on 13 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #561. At 3:45pm on 13 Nov 2010, margaret howard

    You truly have no idea, you must have either had unbelievably bad teachers or simply ignored what was said and refused to consider, investigate and understand, so sad. If you think religion was nothing to do with Ireland then ok so be it, I will not waste my time on you any more, just carry on being a 'Walter Mitty' female.

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  • 572. At 10:32pm on 13 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    "Cyprus was not a "Greek" Island, it was frequented by and inhabited by many different ethnicities, from Africa, Arab countries, European Countries, it is well known for the history of pirates there...."

    I don't like this either :o))))
    Though am ignorant of Cyprus historical record past - to now.
    Still, the crumbs I know/have, give me a feeling that there is something eh unreliabe ... phony about this statement.

    Mind it, Russia never had plans to grabatise Cyprus :o))))))), so I think I am more or less neutral in interests in this matter.

    I had a feeling Cyprus yes is not pure Greek, but but full of Cypriots , rather, those Cypriots being an island variation, a separate branch kind of, - but a variation on the Greek theme! any way. Culturally, I mean, when you are holidaying there - you recognise the signs. If you are skilled, of course, have a background, enabling you, to see.

    I even vaguely kind of remember I had a Cypriot admirer :o)))) one of those were the days my friend :o))))))) reached the level of getting acquainted with the local Mum :o)))))) At which exactly point my candidature I think was turned down :o))))) as of a too sharp modernised girl :o)))), not corresponding the future style of life planned for the son (she must have foreseen heaps of troubles :o))))) coming in his direction). With the father, though, surely we went along alright :o))) , and he duly and quite proudly demonstrated me the property that was orange gardens - absolutely charming orchards and lands - coming along together with their son :o))))))
    But that was clearly a big house run by the Mum, and all in a very old traditional style, and I think she doubted - very correctly - my ability to sit on the land not moving any where, and focus on cultivating those ancestral gardens in the previous centuries' manner and style. She wanted a quiter and a more homely girl for her son. Sheer absence of my dowry I think :o)))) also played a role. On top of my "internationalism" :o)))

    Pity because the son was quite eh, how to say, manageable :o)))))), and good-humoured.

    So come to think ab it, I can even have my personal scores :o))))) against Cypriots, but I don't, because there was really no harm caused :o)))), and the whole acquaintance developed in a very light and pleasant manner, easy-going, how to say, no intense feelings:o))))), and they were awful nice people. It's just the configurations, how to say, didn't configure together :o))))))

    But I've been several times, and at homes, and with friends, not tourist-like, got the feel of the place a bit.

    oh, besides, Cyprus has an excellent asthma doc, who's helped me a lot, I just caught a cold, but he didn't stop at prescribing usual stuff, was an old man, quite caring, packed me with anti-astma things as well, that have helped, and even phoned couple of times to Russia! ater to check how asthma is going which is unusual I would say :o)))))) for most kinds of doctors one encounters :o)))), normally a physician abroad if you fall ill, I mean what does hecare but taking the money for the visit and prescribing something short-term. A Cypriot Greek chap, as they all were, and a very thinking, how to say, about his profession, doctor.

    I honestly looked down upon him first, like what do they know of asthma :o)))) in such a climate and such air :o)))) when no one I think can acquire it by definition :o)))) - sun, sea and clean air simply won't allow! :o)))) even if one is minded:o)))) Even I (very talanted :o) - couldn't - on site :o) - never :o)
    But that doc really knows his trade.
    And sniffed it in me, even that I displayed no signs or no complaints whatsoever. Like, "and this you will take home and use at home on return".

    In the North I haven't been - we, bears, don't go there, out of support of the Cypriots.

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  • 573. At 00:18am on 14 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    The Patriarch in Konstantinopol is, of course, a particular view. Besieged there, basically :o)))))

    Yes, he is the senior one around as regards the Orthodox churches.
    Russian patriarchy is quite powerful as has large congregation, and acts quite on its own, but recognises the seniority in ranks.

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  • 574. At 01:35am on 14 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    My turn,

    Web Alice,

    You are sweetly loyal to your friends but remember,

    this is between those stupid Greeks and stupid Turks...both remnants of empires past.

    Instead of being part of the French-German-UK-Italy..axis, they prefer to remain in dictatorship limbo..

    whose is the worse dictatorship hmmmm

    I pick Turkey, Greece a close second in that two man race of the Agean sea.

    You both gots problems You dumb hostile, inward looking Agean Nutters of our Western world.

    The Chinese instead of pushing you apart would let you fight it out and move in on you after...

    Whom do you love? One wonders...

    We know whom you hate !!!! Yourselves (greeks and turks)

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  • 575. At 01:41am on 14 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    I can hear them now

    The Chinese saying, "going once for 2 dollars-- all these Greek and Turk bones (Ivory) 2 dollars a skeleton. The last of 3 thousand years of empires..."

    "For sale, 2 dollars a set"

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  • 576. At 08:04am on 14 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re"Cyprus invasion and occupation"..


    And what international agreements and Geneva Convention restrictions have been violated by ENOSIS?


    Inquiring minds want to learn from much more knowlegeable posters.

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  • 577. At 08:06am on 14 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "Russian patriarchy is quite powerful as has large congregation, and acts quite on its own, but recognises the seniority in ranks."




    True, Alice.

    In good old Soviet times they all reported to NKVD/KGB.

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  • 578. At 08:09am on 14 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "The Chinese instead of pushing you apart would let you fight it out and move in on you after...

    Whom do you love? One wonders..."





    Stevenson, Turks seem to love China (vide newest pipelines under construction); Greeks - seem to love Russia.


    Doesn't bode well, if you recall Ussuri clashes. ;)

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  • 579. At 08:16am on 14 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Central Europans delight not only in Turkish delight. ;)


    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=turkish-pretzel-in-poland-2010-11-12

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  • 580. At 10:42am on 14 Nov 2010, MACEDNVS wrote:

    563. At 5:03pm on 13 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    "Cyprus was not a "Greek" Island, it was frequented by and inhabited by many different ethnicities, from Africa, Arab countries, European Countries, it is well known for the history of pirates there....

    So please cut the "Cyprus was Greek and the British stole it fairytale" and get real."

    You mean the same way Turkey, with its plethora of different ethnicities, isn't "Turkish"? Especially if one considers the fact that, unlike the majority Greek population of Cyprus, the Turks are not indigenous to the lands they control.

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  • 581. At 10:47am on 14 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    #579. BolekILolek

    They delighting you with pretzels so to be happily pro-Turkish? You can do better than that...keep demanding more...what about a good "Turkish lokum" and Nik knows what I'm talking about..

    #574 Stevenson

    Let's pray together...

    [for how long God must be punishing us with US ignorants?]

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  • 582. At 10:59am on 14 Nov 2010, MACEDNVS wrote:

    576. At 08:04am on 14 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "And what international agreements and Geneva Convention restrictions have been violated by ENOSIS?"

    None, because it never happened. Even if it did, international agreements are only sacrosanct when politically expedient (cf. Kosovo). And I think you'll find the Geneva Convention is irrelevant insofar as it pertains to war crimes, such as those committed by your Turkish friends in 1974.

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  • 583. At 11:32am on 14 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    518. At 08:50am on 12 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:

    Champagne, I claimed that British ships were present among Turkish ships during the invasion. I claimed that non-nationality aircrafts driven by anglosaxon pilots of unverified position (mercenaries? agents? spies? tactical army?) flew planes among the turkish planes that bombarded with napalms and 1 of them was arrested after being shot down - wether these anglo-pilots had pressed the button to drop a napalm or simply flew to monitor is of absolutely no interest to me, it makes absolutely no difference. I also claimed that British bases provided various sorts of support to Turkish invading troops. I claimed that the Turkish "haivan asker" (as it was reknowned, admitted by the Turks themselves) majorly advanced on the island during the ceasefire and in that the role of the UN was more than dubious.

    The role of the British in that invasion as well as in the whole previous story before is well recorded and whatever you try to say is in vain. Accept it. So what? One crime on top of the 100s you made in 20th century only not to mention earlier ones? Does it make any difference to you? As Margaret said.... perdifious Albion... the old saying was never without base and British did their best to abide to it. It seems they still do. What we the rest can do about it? Change history to please you or something? No thanks.

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  • 584. At 12:27pm on 14 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    546. At 07:53am on 13 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:
    """Nik, I will say this -- Your nation created the modern world by extension, BECAUSE your thought processes, remembered, started the Renaissance-- Remember????? (not the Romans)"""

    Greeks recognise the contribution of other nations in human civilisation and we particularly esteem the Chinese, the Indians, the Egyptians, the Iranians and from there on the Arabs, the Italians, the Russians, the French, British, Germans etc. each has provided his lot to the construction of human civilisation. But our nation's contribution has been far too prominent for us not to acknowledge it. Not that we think it makes us today any better than anybody else; but if we speak history we have to stick to history, not fantasy...:
    ...it was certainly not Romans but then it was not either directly the ancient Greeks but medieval (what we now call Byzantine) Greeks. In fact what none is ready to acknowledge is that the Renaissance is an absolutely wrong word: there was no high-culture of civlisational status anywhere north and west of Rome (and I do not belittle the Etruscans who had a wonderful culutre, albeit in imitation of the Greeks them too, nor the Gauls or the Germanics but the guys were "elsewhere", not "there" yet). So there was nothin that RE-started. It was a Naissance, not a Renaissance. And the processes of that (take out RE)naissance started in 1204 A.D.. A blatantly obvious date. Some (not Greeks...) go to the extend to say that the process had been singlehandedly kickstarted by the works of a single man, Plinthon Gemistos (who knows him? easily one of the biggest minds in human history, whose 99% of works we have lost) who made the tour of North Italy during the talks between orthodox and catholic (himself an atheist, sometimes a... 12-theist for the shake of it, no kidding!) and who taught Platonic philosophy to the bunch of till then largely semi-illiterate Italian high classes so imagine the rest of Europe.... and that was the mid-14th century.

    But be it an interesting break of history, that is not of our discussion. Every nation has offered things to the human development but also causes harm at the same time. And in our part of the world you have the absolute constrast: on the one side there is the nation that gave the most to human civilisation and on the other side you have the nation that provoked the most harm to the human civilisation for having inherited the most progressed part of the planet (Greece, Middle East) and achieving in trasforming it in a virtual backwater region all that despite living just next to the most progressive nations of the times. It is virtually impossible to imagine the level of backwardness of the Ottoman Turks who managed after 500 years of their Empire to end up having the ruling muslim populations with a 2,5% literacy rates meaning that 97,5% of their population in 1910 were totally illiterate. Just put this into context to understand where modern Turks come from and why they are like that.

    You have to understand that the comparison is not a historic, nor a philosophical one. It is a very real and it is felt everyday today with the huge civilisational gap that no backlava, no kebap and no soutzouk loukoum or any ah-mane song will bridge.

    552. At 10:02am on 13 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:
    ok its to bad:) Ellinas...im sorry Mexico used to say .."so far from God, so close to the USA"ur version is so far from..so c.. to istanbul .. if our leaders have used u wrongly i 4 one am so sorry:)))


    553. At 10:04am on 13 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:
    """Remember, then, Nik and Ellinas,
    One of ur islands is worth the whole of ur enemy's..
    culture and history.Perhaps that is the way to view it:)))"""



    554. At 10:06am on 13 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:
    """The interesting thing, is Ellinas,is when I talk to Arabs in America..studying..I hope peace, they say Turkey is the closest thing to a European style nation in the Muslim world."""

    It is an interesting quote but Stevenson, you have to go deeper when studying such things: muslims by culture are people of the superficial. This sometimes has its funny sides, I do not mention it as a negative, but they are indeed very superficial, it is a part of their culture, they are the people of the "appearence". To their eyes, the Turks a mixed population of muslimified christian populations are anyway "more close" to European by nature. Add on top the Kemalist regime with its laws on banning eastern clothing and top it with Turkey's alliance to US and there you have why Arabs consider Turks as the closest muslims to west. However, if you want my opinion, Indonesians can be much more close to that description than Turks.

    But you know what, all the above is pure socio-historic discussion. It is interesting to note to understand what is the background of the Turks but down to the basics, what interests us are the ones of today, where they stand at.

    By the way, the subsequent message of Ellinas has been monumental:

    Re551: Ellinas, your post has been the absolute. I salute you!

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  • 585. At 2:51pm on 14 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Web Alice,

    You are sweetly loyal to your friends but remember,

    this is between those stupid Greeks and stupid Turks...both remnants of empires past.

    Instead of being part of the French-German-UK-Italy..axis, they prefer to remain in dictatorship limbo..

    whose is the worse dictatorship hmmmm

    I pick Turkey, Greece a close second in that two man race of the Agean sea.

    __________________________

    Mr Stevenson.
    ,
    ________________

    You act by ways known to you. May be you put stakes on the winner. American instincts and all. Risk taking. At that, you care for neither.
    One just appeals to you more than the other, because acts sweeter.
    That's all there is in it, in your choice-making.

    One looks like a winner, more active, more healthy, younger population, growing, acts sweet to you - what's like, there, to think more of it? - you put your stakes on that one.

    Now, Russia is closer acquainted with both. At that, knows Turkey better than Greece (and better than Cyprus), simply because with Turkey we bordered until very recently (Russia, Russian empire times, USSR times) while Greece is cut off since 980-1200 something :o)))))))))))

    You do recognise how deep were the cultural similarities, if I, as a Russian, come to a Greek Cypriot house after a thousand years break :o)))))))))) - literally You don't think that Russians holiday-ed in Cyprus in 1500-1900-1970, do you? Surely not. We never saw them. We never met since Byzantium times.

    Still, I come over, and things are familiar and understandable.
    To Greece I never been.

    So we do know Turkey better as communicated far more.
    Of those Byzantium things there is a weak, how to say, glimpse, a very thin link, but strangely a quite surviving one.

    I will continue to go by known to me Russian ways, have no desire to play unknown to me games, trying to win in the wrong field, where I've got no strength in approaches and how to call them, skills.

    I am wishing al the best - both to Turkey as a neigbour, and to Greeks, as proven understandable people, because a connection lasting - in spite of physical separation - counted by those huge numbers in years - is not a joke.
    How will Russia get along with Turkey still remains a question for the future.

    As things are standing I will enter a Greek house without second thoughts and reservations, and am very un-sure I can do the same , in a Turkish one.

    You wish to try your luck :o))))))))))), Mr Stevenson. well I'm not your insurance company :o)))))))))))) when Americans make mistakes they usually shhok them away like a duck out ofwater and move on,.
    Not everyone else can allow yourself this luxury, I am sure I can't, so we will continue supporting Greeks, as consequitive bears, sorry, acting in theways known to us. Until Turkey proves they are worthy as well.

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  • 586. At 4:32pm on 14 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    556. At 11:07am on 13 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    """Referendum results
    the majority (Deep Turkey), around 58%, have voted yes, favoring Islamic Erdogan for the package of proposed constitutional changes he asked."""

    While one can argue that the 58% contains a varied population and in that even pro-western-but-anti-kemalists I would say that on the overall the part of what you called successfully "deep Turkey" is around 60%.

    """the other 42% (mostly the Minor Asia) are Kemalists that care more for a European style nation but as you saw by the above techniques they cared only for the style (until 2002 they were for almost a century the only political power in command)"""

    Precisely. The likes of Americans think that pro-kemalist means westernised not being able to realise that Kemalism has been the first 20th century Nazi regime with all the characteristics of a Nazi regime: concentration camps, ethnic cleansing and genocide for all "different populations", constructed nationalism, aggressive expansionism, military state, para-state, violence over citizens, complete absence of freedom of speech, indoctrinated education etc; etc, the list does not end.

    In fact, what some westerners call "western" in Turkey is precisely all those western elements that in the west people tried to shed-off.

    """The most of the Kurds (15 to 20 million of the whole population) they abstained for voting"""

    It is interesting to note this because some would think that non-PKK Kurds would vote largely for the more tolerant (in comparison to the Kemalists) islamists which is not true. Based on my experiences in Europe, "deep Kurds" when moving to Europe can be actually much more westernised than the equivalent "deep Turks" no matter if the former come by much more isolated and rural areas than the latter.

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  • 587. At 5:01pm on 14 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    And the latter is mostly for your understanding Ellinas, you have to note carefully where Turks come to understand where they are standing at and what we are dealing with – something that Greeks are funnily not willing to do (i.e. not willing to face the reality).

    556. At 11:07am on 13 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:
    """Just for information: Turks are not Arabs instead they are Mongols and the below map is describing their current bipolar situation:"""

    Turks are not Arabs but they are not exactly Mongols either – though I like also to use this term since it is themselves Turks that imposed that on them,. Turks are the descendant high-mix of the muslimified populations of the Ottoman Empire. Ineed, what is funny is that while Ottomans during Ottoman Empire tried to shed-off their mongolic past like a sick tries to shed of the pest, the need to construct a national myth in the 20th century made them re-invent themselves as the descendants of the medieval Turkic tribes (who were of Mongolic stock). So be it, if they started calling themselves Mongols, then we call them Mongols but then even more funnily many (if not most) Turks hate this, i.e. they hate people (especially Greeks) calling them Mongols while it is themselves that adopted with fanatiscism this name. One can only marvel at the amount of complexes that this lot of people have not being able to bear the name themselves have created for themselves.

    We are still in the waiting for a better definition which seems to change on will and on circumstances. In the meantime we may study their real consistency which is neither any mystery nor any difficult to to trace historically as well as anthropologically.

    Initial Turkic tribes like the Seljuks were of Mongolic stocks, i.e. they would be not different to what you find today in countries like Turkmenstan & Tajikistan etc. Like all Turkic tribes before them they never had any strong ethnic consciousness being nomading tribes. They established as mercenaries of the Arabs, got islamic and in that implicit way conqured them then invaded the east of the Eastern Roman Empire (due to the inner political games played there...) and after a painstaking 400 years of successive expansions and retractions and after more than 250 years of absence of Eastern Roman Empire due to the total destruction by the 4th Crusade they managed to take step by step the lands there. Their expansion was largely based on a step approach of inducing islamisation either by periods of peak-violence or by constant political-ecnomic luring. In that note that Turks did same with Arabs with whom they had already mixed to a considerable extend): as much as Arab Chalifs had trusted their high military and political positions to the Turkomongols for not letting other strong local Arab leaders rising, in the same way Seljuks (and then Ottomans) actually favoured the islamised local ones for the top positions for being more fidel in comparison to the mongol-Turkic warlords who were semi-independent and often more or less completely independent as well as thie being an effective way to keep down the local Christians – local islamised ones would be in constant conflict with the locals. This, in conjunction with the formal formation of the main Turkish troops, the Janissaries in the 14th century, accelerated the increase of the Turkish ranks and their step by step floating in the region. In this however what is interesting is that while Janissaries appeared formally in 14th century organised by Ottoman Sultans, as early as 1170s the Seljuk army was already increasingly local Minor Asian (i.e. from eastern-central Minor Asia) as proven by the fact that after the battle of Myriokefalon the bulk of the naked (after the after-battle pillage) dead soldiers could be only distinguished by their haircuts and presence or absence of circumcision and not by facial characteristics so the Sultan had to order the cutting scalps and genitals to hide the Turks’ disproportionate losses for propaganda issues.
    So after this long and arduous time of initiation of Turkish rule over Minor Asian, by the time of the initiation of the Ottoman Empire (with the capture of the by then already fallen city of Constantinople), the original Turkic tribes (who were then mostly fresh recently arrived tribes that continued to enter Minor Asia attracted by the prospect of gaining through working for Ottomans) they were treated by the Ottomans rather as the lesser people and were placed aside (many of them in the east actually revolting against the Ottomans whom they did not anymore regard as Turks), while the islamified ones (Janissaries or other) were considered as the premium ones. Not to mention the fleets where there was not a single Turk (but mostly islamified or not so Minor Asians).

    From there on, having incorporated a part of the Minor Asian population, about 30-40% of it back then (which very slowly rose to a 60% of it till 1900s) they went on to incorporate bits and parts of other nations on the European side, Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbians - though it had been majorly the Albanians (whose 80% had become muslim) and Bosnians (those who converted rather willingly to islam), who provided most of the Ottoman population of Europe to the extend of Greeks in Europe speaking not of Turks but of Turkalbanians. As such the European Turks were largelly an Albanian population and in the north a Bosnian one and as such radically differed to the Turks of Minor Asia who for the most of it were local Minor Asians, be it Armenians on the east, Kappadocians on the center, Lazi & Georgians in the northeast and Greeks on the north and west coast. On top of that high-mix, one has to note the presence of Mongol slavemasters in Ukraine that took 100,000s of Ukrainian slaves (men and women) who incorporated the Ottoman body. From there on, note that the whole eastern Turkey had a constant contact with both Arabs and Iranian tribes like the Kurds (divided into the pro-Iranian and the pro-Ottoman ones) which is another very big addition to the Turkish mass.

    Hence the modern Turkish nation – i.e. excluding the massive part of Kurds who cannot even be termed as a minority but only as a cohabitating nation – are a mix of central Asiatic Touranic (Mongolic-European) people, Middle Eastern Arabs and Iranian Kurds, Caucasians like Georgians and Azeris and Ukrainian-Slavic, Eastern and Central Minor Asians (Armenians and Kappadocians), west and north coast Greeks, Albanians and Slavs like Bosnians and islamised Bulgarians..vOut of that lot, the initial Turkic mix is not more than 8%-10% but it is true that in certain regions of Turkey local tribes may still show evident signs of Mongolic ancestry. Guys like Erbakan or Mesut Gilmaz show that partial Mongolic ancestry however for the most of it – that is up to 40% of Turks make more relation to Armeno-Kappadocian population of the centre-east. From there on the percentages are filled with all the rest, out of which the most important 20% part making the link with Middle Eastern Arabic populations followed by a 10%-15% of Albanians & Caucasians. The relation of Turks with Greeks – just like in the case of the likes of Armenians an one way relation (i.e. movements from the local Christians to the muslims and not the opposite – is esteemed at a rate of 10% which goes up to 15% only if we include other local non-Greek anciently Greek speaking Minor Asians of central Minor Asia to which modern Greeks also hold some rough relationship since ancient times.

    Now the most important to remember is that while for other nations (say French, Germans) the mixes were regional and over a long time, in the Ottoman Empire the mixes occured in burtst, often in short time (eg. a wave of islamisation), you had the old-comers and the new-comers (the "originals" practically were non-existing) and all the lot was tied-up by 2 apparent things: muslim religion and fidelisation around the Sultan.

    However, the thing that tied mostly these populations was more than that since
    1) not all muslims were of the same sect
    2) not all muslims were blindly faifthful to the Sultan

    The reality is that the 3rd reason was a more dark one:
    3) they were tied up on under a powerful force to excersise power on the rest

    Effectively, in the asiatic muslim culture brought to Minor Asia with the Turks there is no notion of equality in human relations:
    there is only the powerful and the weak and the one asserts his power over the other.

    The above is the most basic notion that you have to keep in mind. For when you talk with a Turk, there is no case of passing to him the notion of both parties being equal. When you refer to him to that, the Turk receives that as your weakness and as his superiority. As such he will never treat you as anything else as an inferior. If you refer to him and treat him as an inferior, he will perceive you as a superior and that is what he expects from you to do. The above is not something meant to make negative connotations. It is something that is inscribed in the Turkish culture (but then same is in the Japanese or the Anglosaxon cultures*). It is the notion that defines first of all the relations among Turks themselves, let alone their relations with the non-Turks.

    If you ever had the slightest doubt on that you only have to take the example of how Turkish politicians like the kemalists and the islamists speak - you might notice that both have pretty much the same speech when they talk about Turkey and words like "power", "expansion" and other such niceties appear 10 times more frequently than in the sum of the real world powers'(US, Russia, China, India, Britain, France etc.) politics.

    * refer to Emmanuel Todd's works (eg. After the Empire - a monumental and prophetic work of Todd, easily the best politologue alive today).

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  • 588. At 5:28pm on 14 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Glanced back. O! :o)))))))))) Look above :o)))))))
    One Nik is worth 10.

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  • 589. At 7:28pm on 14 Nov 2010, MACEDNVS wrote:

    @Nik

    To laconize is to philosophize. ;)

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  • 590. At 8:01pm on 14 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    589. At 7:28pm on 14 Nov 2010, MACEDNVS wrote:

    """Nik To laconize is to philosophize."""

    Naaaah Macednvs, I do not believe in that. I suggest you read the poem of Konstantinos Kavafis "Igemon ek dutikis Libuis" (Chief from western Libya).

    Chief from western Libya

    He was generally well accepted in Alexandreia
    during his 10 days there
    the chief from western Libya.
    Aristomenes, son of Menelaos.
    His name like his attire, proper, greek.
    He was accepting with pleasure all the honours, but
    he did not seek them, he was modest.
    He was buying books, greek ones,
    mainly books on history and philosophy.
    Above all he rested a man of a few words.
    He had to be a man of deep intellect, people were saying,
    since that kind of people do not tend to speak a lot.

    Well, neither deep in intellect, nor anything other.
    He was a random, funny little man.
    He took a greek name, he got dressed like the Greeks,
    he learnt to behave like the Greeks,
    and deep inside was trembling
    in fear of wrecking that good little impression he had made
    in the case of speaking with horrible barbarism in Greek,
    and so Alexandrians ridicule him
    as it is their habit, those nasty ones!

    And so that is why he was keepting it to a few words
    taking care with owe the grammar and the accent
    and he was bored, none the less,
    having to keep his opinions deep inside him.

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    I think the above answers you a lot why I won't do any effort to keep my descriptions short. No short answer says a lot unless you do not want to open any dialogue - like in the "molon lave" case. Here we do have to explain a bit further. If it becomes too long, we are not obliged to read it but them at the end of the day I write blind-fast (double and triple fast as the normal rate most people write and so I can develop really fast long texts). Take them or leave them mate!

    If you ever wanted to comment on the essence of the above remain to the last 2 paragraphs: the "inequality" notion which is present in many cultures, among whom our dear neighbours' one too.

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  • 591. At 8:36pm on 14 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Yea youre right

    Having a bad night, last--today Im better,

    sorry all

    I even admonished M Howard

    poor lil girl-gell--she is nice to me like you and Nik

    :)))))

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  • 592. At 8:48pm on 14 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    So, Russians, I AM So ignorant!

    ..got their wonderful poetic ways from Greece, hmm

    Thai is so unknown to me. But, it is interesting.

    I remember the songs that were here from you, and I marveled.

    :)))))

    I feel better.

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  • 593. At 8:50pm on 14 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    I must go to the next page and see what damage

    I caused

    There.

    :))))

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  • 594. At 9:20pm on 14 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    Stevenson, je n'ai rien compris! What are you consuming and not giving to us?

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  • 595. At 9:44pm on 14 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Oh I dislike my supervisor and she dislikes meeee.

    I Will survive!

    That is why I feel like I'm on a rollarcoaster, happy one day.
    despondent the next:))

    I went from "oh its Saturday to woe its Saturday night"

    So today, I'm like "Yea my new teeth are finished and ..I'm famished"

    I shall wait for tonight-work tomorrow...

    LOLOLOL

    :)))

    And Greece is glorious y Vive la France!

    N'est Pas?

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  • 596. At 9:47pm on 14 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Otherwise consuming ..just my usual doctor prescribed--

    here have some

    on me!

    So very non addictve-is why Im happy..long term:)))

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  • 597. At 10:05pm on 14 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    """N'est Pas? =(corrected)= ne c'est pas?"""

    But it is ok,


    """And Greece is glorious y Vive la France!"""

    Baaahhh... "Greece" either is a modern state that is certainly... inglourious or "Greece" can be an ancient notion born out of the need of the Greek tribes to unite which blatantly failed despite one of them managed to conquer half the world or something... so again we talk about epic fail.

    From there one it can be something like "ViveLaFrance!" is, i.e. a vague notion, an emblem, a motivational thingie whose position in the modern world is constinuously challenged. Some - and funnily not only Greeks among them - try to give to the notion of "Greece" even a metaphysical value in some sort of battle between evil and good fought since the very dawn of mankind to our days and then down to the last days of humanity which can be at times extremely amusing, sometimes quite frightening (not that it frighten me of course, son of Macedon, can't be frightened hehe, Fear is frightened by me, haha!).

    Ok, I quit the funny crap... Greece is simply a geographical entity enclosing the Aegean world, named after the name of the nation that has his birthplace there. In fact, to be honest, this word does not even exist in our language since while we have the word "Grekos" in Greek and we have used it historically till recently on the sides of Hellenas and Ionas (mostly used as Yunan by Asiatic nations), our formal word remaines "Hellenas" and as such there is no "Grekia" (which should be the direct translation of Greece in Greek) word in Greek!!!! There is only Hellas (written "Ellas" in Greek) while the word "Ionia" still refers only to west coast Minor Asia, i.e. maintaining its original geographical meaning no matter if Asiatics use the term "Yunan" for the country of Greece. As such call it great Greece will not mean a lot in Greek other than making a reference that could actually imply South Italy as Magna Grecia (Great Greece) was a term used by Greeks and then Romans for all of South Italy due to the large Greek population there whose cities often had larger populations than cities in Greece.

    We indeed need to constantly define our words and notions! Hehe. Ok, I quit philosophy too.

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  • 598. At 10:45pm on 14 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    I dislike philosophy too

    Put one column of notions against another

    And they cancel each other out

    I believe in science and self thoughts..

    plus other's thoughts

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  • 599. At 10:56pm on 14 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    at 580

    thats correct.

    At Ellinas, happy to see u have re-educated urself in regards to how the "muslim" Turks got to Cyprus.

    So in fact there was a huge diverse number of cultures on the Island of Cyprus that forms the modern Cypriot identity, it wasn't an exclusively Greek Island for 100's of years, although today there are elements of ancient Greek culture found in museums, that culture doesn't relate to todays Cypriots.


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  • 600. At 11:03pm on 14 Nov 2010, augustine101 wrote:

    I really think that the view(s) expressed by Mr.Thilo Sarrazin goes a long way in exposing the hypocrisy pervading in the German elite circles.While integration is being canvased,I did like to know the action(s) undertaken by him and many others in like positions, to fully intergrate the so called foriegners in Germany.It should and must be noted that while Germans talk of integration on one hand,those people in high places,Mr Thilo Sarrazzin inclusive, has been doing only what has been in practice since time immemorial.That is cheap publicity.The politicians that blames all the country woes on the immigrants as soon as election is around the corner as a means of appealing to the masses. Hitler did it against the Jews,Mr Stoiber,a former minister president in Bavaria against the immigrants.I think the world will get a much better picture of what is actually happening there in Germany,when the Mass Media can be able to go into the terrian and interview the people in question.Authoritatively,there are a lot of people that have fully integrated into the society but are being left out in the cold and leaving the country in droves.In summary,Germany is never and has never been a country that welcomes anybody.You can try your possible best to integrate but to the Germans,you will still be and remain a foreigner,German passport or not. I have been there for fifteen years,crime free,mind you and I damn know what the hell I am talking about. The above gentleman,Mr Thilo Sarrazin,is only seeking cheap publicity and a pat in the back by his comrades.That`s it.Short and Simple. And untill the day when nobody can be judged by his race,nationality and colour,Germany will continue to go round in circles as long as issue of immigrant and Integration goes.

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  • 601. At 11:18pm on 14 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Nik,

    Tu parle vraiment:)))

    {spelling incorrect?}

    David

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  • 602. At 11:20pm on 14 Nov 2010, augustine101 wrote:

    Stop Racism and Discrimination in Germany and all things will follow

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  • 603. At 11:44pm on 14 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    601. At 11:18pm on 14 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:
    """Nik,
    Tu parle vraiment:)))
    {spelling incorrect?}"""

    Yes David, hehe, it is "Tu parles vraiment",
    je parle, tu parles, il parle, nous parlons, vous parlez, ils parlent.

    But I do not blame you either, I see you know some stuff, afterall French language is tricky and you have to be studying it all the time or living in a French speaking region to know it good. I do not either pass myself as a multi-linguist. With English, French and a bit of Spanish (waning though...), I can hardly pass as such. I need to re-think over it and learn some new language though things like Chinese are not for me (I am sure I will cope with the letters, but I will certainly not cope with the pronunciation to which I fundamentally refuse to be sentitive, hehe! I work with syllabes not with sounds...!!!). I should either re-learn Spanish good or take up German or Russian. Russian I like, it is a very interesting language. I used to know some Bulgarian in the past, Bulgarian I think is the most stylish of Slavic languages. Russian sounds to my untrained ears more like... village-Bulgarian since the Bulgarian "zne-zne" in Russian would sound something like "znie-znie". I still cannot forget that Russian lady from... Novosibirsk calling me "Niakouuu" for "Niko"... hilarious! Sorry WebAlice but I still do like Russian, it is the international laguage of space (and a prerequisite to a visit in the ISS) and as such a language that points to the future of mankind.

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  • 604. At 11:48pm on 14 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    600. At 11:03pm on 14 Nov 2010, augustine101 wrote:

    """....I really think......."""

    Not sure of that.

    """...untill the day when nobody can be judged by his race,nationality and colour,Germany will continue to go round in circles as long as issue of immigrant and Integration goes."""

    You speak of Germans but you got to see the Turks mate! Meet first, then decided before you say anything. Live with them, then make an opinion of yours.

    Know that in Germany there is large number of other communities, yet they are somehow not the pre-occupation for Germans. So why Turks? Is it something having to do with the Germans? Or is it something that has to do with the Turks? Think before writing something.

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  • 605. At 11:52pm on 14 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    600 augustine wrote:

    "Hitler did it against the Jews,Mr Stoiber,a former minister president in Bavaria against the immigrants."

    I see you have reached the stage of GODWIN'S LAW sooner than most:

    "Godwin's law is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1989 which has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1." In other words, Godwin put forth the sarcastic observation that, given enough time, all discussions—regardless of topic or scope—inevitably end up being about Hitler and the Nazis."

    You go on to say:

    "In summary,Germany is never and has never been a country that welcomes anybody.You can try your possible best to integrate but to the Germans,you will still be and remain a foreigner,German passport or not. I have been there for fifteen years,crime free,mind you and I damn know what the hell I am talking about."

    Ever thought of leaving and seeking a happier existence in a more welcoming country? You know - the grass being greener?

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  • 606. At 11:52pm on 14 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    #597 Nik

    --✄-- as such there is no "Grekia" (which should be the direct translation of Greece in Greek) word in Greek!!!! There is only Hellas --✄--

    Aristotle was the first to use Graikhos as equivalent to Hellen (Meteorologica I.xiv) derived from the native name of inhabitants of Epirus.

    Here is the pass:

    "...The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes..."

    ...and since among Latins, Aristotle was one of the most famous Greek philosopher...The term Greeks maybe somehow prevailed

    Another modern theory derives the name Greek (Lt.Graeci) from Graekhos inhabitant of Graia -or Graea-(Γραία),a town on the coast of Boeotia. Greek colonists from Graia helped to found Cumae (ancient Greek settlement lying to the northwest of Naples in the Italian region of Campania 900 B.C),where the Latins first encountered Greeks.This name was given to the colonists and later to all Greeks.

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  • 607. At 11:59pm on 14 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 608. At 00:06am on 15 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    #599 Go4aa1

    You got the wrong end of the stick dear...there is no Ellinas at this #580 post. You can find me instead here #569

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  • 609. At 02:48am on 15 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Ellinas sorry I called Greeks--and Turks dumb--I was in mood

    :)))

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  • 610. At 05:00am on 15 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    M. Howard,

    What a great observation and correct probably (at least in our minds)

    I'm sorry if I ever have hurt your feelings in any post--you are most sweet.

    David

    :)))

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  • 611. At 05:09am on 15 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Um... remind me, not to find you so attractive

    That the world is full of wommen--dang can't spell:))--4 some..reason--

    when I go to touch your hand

    to miss you

    to count to ten,

    unless, my darling, you forget.

    THAT is a song**see below, please.

    **This is to the women here--just two?--because they know "where I come...from" (what I mean--my meanings)...:)))))

    Men, sometimes, do misinterpret

    which is Not Good

    :)))

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  • 612. At 08:07am on 15 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    598. At 10:45pm on 14 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    --✄-- I dislike philosophy too. Put one column of notions against another and they cancel each other out --✄--

    To the philosophers the notions don't cancel each other instead they complete each other or they help one another like left and right hand, or they coexist etc.

    "Put one column of notions against another and they cancel each other out"
    is mostly a science thingy e.g. Newton's action-reaction law.

    In less words:

    you like what you don't really like and you don't like what you really like

    That's the coexistence of opposite thoughts I've talk about you later and those last clear thoughts of mine is the philosophy you so dislike.

    The Know thyself (γνῶθι σεαυτόν) philosophy

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  • 613. At 10:09am on 15 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    My sincere congratulations to all Greek posters here on Socialist victory in Athens and Thessaloniki regions.


    Seems things start looking up.


    Partcularly after Monday afternoon. :)

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  • 614. At 10:12am on 15 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "our formal word remaines "Hellenas"


    I knew a couple of Hellenas in my time: some were very nice.

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  • 615. At 10:16am on 15 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re # 591 Stevenson :"I even admonished M Howard"


    feeling suicidal?

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  • 616. At 10:20am on 15 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "In other words, Godwin put forth the sarcastic observation that, given enough time, all discussions—regardless of topic or scope—inevitably end up being about Hitler and the Nazis."



    And all them Jews being responsible responsible for every calamity.

    [let's not forget that it was Eisberg who sank "Titanic"]

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  • 617. At 11:09am on 15 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    613. At 10:09am on 15 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
    """My sincere congratulations to all Greek posters here on Socialist victory in Athens and Thessaloniki regions.
    Seems things start looking up.
    Partcularly after Monday afternoon. :)"""

    Haha, that is the joke of the day! Dear, you forgot to check the % of people who voted. Usually up to very recently regional elections had an even higher rate of participation than national elections at around 80-90%. This time the average rate of participation was 40% and in Thessaloniki it hit rock bottom at around 35%. Not only that but also the usual 1% of white & invalid votes hit sky high 10%, i.e. 10% of the people who voted went there just to put an invalid or a blank vote.

    This means that for the most of it the people elected were not more than the 30% of the people eligible to vote, i.e. citizens. The ones who were more pressed to do obviously have been the core-party members and in that the governing PASOK party has by far the most hardcore members whose fidelity is bought directly with the usual "gifts" we all know. On that one, one has necessarily to add the fact that in the large cities there is a large number of illegal immigrants recently... citizensised by the PASOK party and these people - perhaps out of the curiosity of the "first time" - might have gone to vote in larger % : all of them are supporters of PASOK party evidently.

    So the relatively high % of PASOK party are easily explained.

    Now you should start wondering what legitimity have people elected on the basis of a less than 35% of people voting among whom lie an important number of recently citizensized illegal immigrants in an unconstitutional way. Note also that since 2000 elections there is no fair election and the the % of the PASOK party are in that way (illegal citizenships) rigged to an uknown % (i.e. PASOK party may bring forward an un-calculatable number of voters out of nowhere anytime!!! In these elections the number is calculated at more than 300,000 voters which in large cities can be up to 10% all going to PASOK...).

    That is the way it goes. Now you know.

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  • 618. At 11:22am on 15 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    606. At 11:52pm on 14 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:
    """Aristotle was the first to use Graikhos as equivalent to Hellen (Meteorologica I.xiv) derived from the native name of inhabitants of Epirus."""
    Here is the pass:
    """...The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes..."""
    """...and since among Latins, Aristotle was one of the most famous Greek philosopher...The term Greeks maybe somehow prevailed"""
    """Another modern theory derives the name Greek (Lt.Graeci) from Graekhos inhabitant of Graia -or Graea-(Γραία),a town on the coast of Boeotia."""
    """Greek colonists from Graia helped to found Cumae (ancient Greek settlement lying to the northwest of Naples in the Italian region of Campania 900 B.C),where the Latins first encountered Greeks.This name was given to the colonists and later to all Greeks."""

    ---------------------

    Yes I know about all that. In my opinion, both names Hellenas and Graekos have rather a Dorian ancestry than Ionian or Aeolian and originate rather from the western Macedonia-eastern Epirus region (birthplace of Dorians) since they both seem to come in use only after the descent of the Dorians - back then (in archaic times) perceived as the tribe that exemplified most the Greeks. However, it is clear that different names were used to describe Greeks in different times. Eg. Homer uses for the pre-Dorian era, the names Achaians (70% of times), Danaans (20% of times) and Argives (10% of times) while other writers claim that the even older names of Pelasgians are previous names for the Greek tribes habitating the place.

    As such I never argued about the interchangeability of the name "Greek" and "Hellen", I only mentioned that the word "Graikia" or "Graia" is not in use in the Greek language and we use only the word "Hellas". There is nothing other special about that.

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  • 619. At 11:32am on 15 Nov 2010, Go4aa1 wrote:

    Ellinas at 580 was not directed at you.

    It was directed at the Mac

    The part directed at you was specified by using the words 'Ellinas'

    Thanks..

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  • 620. At 2:00pm on 15 Nov 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    #618 Nik

    --✄-- I only mentioned that the word "Graikia" or "Graia" is not in use in the Greek language --✄--

    True is not in use in the Greek language but my post was made to correct this quote of yours #597

    --✄-- to be honest, this word does not even exist in our language --✄--

    But i think we are both got calibrated at the end.

    N.B. Of course i like more "Ellas" but after all "Greece" don't make much difference to me. After all it indicates the region of Dodoni (the oldest and most important of the whole Greek oracles)

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  • 621. At 6:45pm on 15 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:

    """N.B. Of course i like more "Ellas" but after all "Greece" don't make much difference to me. After all it indicates the region of Dodoni (the oldest and most important of the whole Greek oracles)"""

    Neither to me. As you pointed out, Greek is a more ancient nation-name of ours. In the recent past there were people who did not like Greek either because it does not sound as nice as Hellenas sounds in Greek language either because this was coming from the much maligned westerners (koutofragkoi), hehe! However all three demoninations Greek, Hellenas, Yunan that are currently in use in west and east respectively with our own one in the center are equally acceptable.

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  • 622. At 8:05pm on 15 Nov 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    610 Stevenson

    I'm sorry if I ever have hurt your feelings in any post--you are most sweet.

    David

    Thank you David, nice to have you back. By the way how's the cat? Hope she made a full recovery

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  • 623. At 01:20am on 16 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    In the past 26 hrs I moved from the dacha to the city - 1.5
    Un-packed - 2
    Washed city apt around a bit - 3
    Composed a lecture. in half falling from the chair state - 2
    walked Ro-Ro, now locked in and packed in tiny apt on the 9th floor! he a/ is sad b./ seems to have temperature :o( hot ears t the "base"
    c./ enquires where is the garden - there is none!
    so walked him three times - 3.5
    went to buy him smth to eat - 1
    has been to two different work-s in 1 Monday - 6.5
    travel to two different work places - 3
    slept 2.5 hrs
    checked and tried dig's ears - 1 full hour combined no doubt
    and now am looking forward to find that boiled egg I was about to have for dinner? breakfast? yesterday? hard to say.
    and may be like finally have a shower :o)))))
    since I seem to have re-located from dacha? if I did/ because I'm so exhausted by last days I can't be even tired anymore so much was done at once, condensed.

    You know, folks, there is a strange thing like "door keys" re-discovered by me today. I realised I haven't held keys in hand in the past four months. Never locked the door in the dacha - once. Because Jolly Roger goes back and forward and surely I won't leave a dog in the garden unable to enter the house; to the opposite :o))))) I kept sliding a ? like a wooden cube, into the door, so that it always stays a bit open for the dog to shuffle in and out by.
    And in terms of passport money and netbook safety in the open house :o)))))) I relied on the same Baskerville :o)))))))

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  • 624. At 01:36am on 16 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    14 July - 14 November. Four months in the dacha full :o)
    i would stay another week since it is still above zero (or round about it :o))))) but the night ..hard to say for me now :o)) Sat-Sunday was it? electricity went off. and we were freezing till the morn. because I wanted to call a taxi and go out away but could hardly find the dog in complete darkness at 3 am to say nothing of other things to pack :o)
    So on Sunday I went to the neighbours with a pan to complete the chicken in there :o)))))) soup process :o))))), with a kettle as well to be able to have coffee :o))))). found an electrician fixed the wires back again :o) packed 27 bags ..the taxi driver said he swears this mountain of things will never get squeezed into his car :o) walked the dog another three hundred times :o)))))) closed up all... poured water out in case of near frost all the metal ex-milk eh containers would burst then OK, curve :o))))) into very weird shapes, from frozen water,
    despaired around the garden that the summer is over :o(
    went with dog to the millionaire dog local store to try overalls (sizes:o) we began from the ones labelled "labrador" (33), didn't squeeze in, proceeded to "rottweiler" - didn't squeeze in :o))))

    ended up by deciding our size is called "newfoundland, great dane and black terrier" :o)))) idiotic overall sizes. didn't buy one - to Roger's utter disappointemnt - he liked it in the millionnaire dog store (dog toys and visiting tiny fluffies around)(tiny "bolds", I would say :o)))) besides there are lots of fishes in their large wall aquariums
    anyway we haven't had money enough for the "newfounland" size
    only for the smaller overall sizes :o( And they have also enquired are we planning to get fatter in winter or not :o) why not to take one size bigger extra :o) just in case. So I took him away after trying a pile of clothes.
    will go collapse friends :o)

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  • 625. At 01:39am on 16 Nov 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    and I still haven't bought one cute carpet there in the village! :o) one sunny yellow chair cushion of my dreams:o))))))
    one apple tree is still not white-washed its trunk is un-painted white I mean
    and summer has ended! :o)))))) so abruptly I would say :o)

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  • 626. At 08:09am on 16 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    You need a fireplace...but I need a better job..lets dream:)))

    Love baby animals..hope your dog (?) has good health..and remember Alice, its the holiday season--Im a fall person:))

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  • 627. At 08:10am on 16 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    MHoward,

    Yes the cat is fine--she is just a hypochondriac..sigh

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  • 628. At 4:05pm on 16 Nov 2010, ajm816 wrote:

    If Muslims choose to not integrate into Western societies of Europe then why are they migrating there in the first place? Why the government gives them the welfare and all the other commodities that even the ethnic Germans don't get.

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  • 629. At 04:56am on 18 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:

    Maybe--the above--Europe has been TOO accomodating:))

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