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The Roma: France fights back

Gavin Hewitt | 14:39 UK time, Wednesday, 15 September 2010

Roma in Bucharest, Romania, after being expelled from France, 14 Sep 10

After stinging criticism from the European Union of its policy towards the Roma, France today hit back. The Elysee Palace said that the comments from Europe's top justice official were "unacceptable".


Yesterday the EU's Justice Commissioner Viviane Reding said that France's policy of expelling the Roma was a "disgrace" and compared it to what had happened under the Nazis. "This is a situation," she said, "I had thought Europe would not have to witness again after the Second World War".

Even though the Elysee Palace is obviously angry it is not wanting to escalate the row. Instead it says it wants "calm dialogue" and to avoid getting drawn into what it calls a "sterile controversy".

Viviane Reding seems to have been irritated by criticism from MEPs that she had not been tough enough initially. She also felt she had been misled by French ministers.

She was clearly furious about the existence of an internal French interior ministry memo which specifically mentioned that in dismantling illegal camps the Roma were the priority. She felt the memo undermined earlier French assurances and she interpreted the wording as targeting an ethnic minority.

That memo has now been replaced by a later document, signed by the interior minister himself, that makes no mention of the Roma.

President Sarkozy is most unlikely to back down. To do otherwise would be a personal humiliation. It might also be good domestic politics to stand up to a European official.

France will insist it has broken no European laws and has the right to remove Roma on the grounds of security. It will also challenge the EU as to why funds earmarked to help the Roma integrate in Romania have not been fully used.

Michel Barnier, who is a European commisioner and French, tried today to calm down the dispute. He pointed out that the Commission was the guardian of European treaties. He said the commissioners would take a decision together as to whether France had infringed the treaties and should be subject to legal action. No decision had yet been taken, he said.

Michel Barnier said that "the treaty enshrines certain values which are extremely important for all of us, and certain countries who were at the root of European construction inspired these values - not just France - and we're proud of these and we need to, we have to, respect them".

But he also said that "many governments, not only the French government, are having to deal with very complex situations involving integration - requiring integration.

"And I don't think we can oversimplify the situation and just characterise this in a few words - these governments have to deal with integration in the context of their national legislation and in compliance with the treaties which they have underwritten and subscribed to."

If this dispute were to end up before the European Court of Justice it would turn on the interpretation of European treaties. The French would argue that while they have signed up to the free movement of peoples within the EU, they have the right to restrict movement on the grounds of security.

The line that is likely to be adopted by the French government was summed up Xavier Bertrand from the UMP, Sarkozy's party.

"France respects European law," he said, "but France lives by the law of the Republic and the decisions regarding the dismantling of illegal camps were taken judicially and French law takes priority in France".

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  • 1. At 3:09pm on 15 Sep 2010, adski123 wrote:

    I don't see what is so wrong with this? I have been living in Lyon for the last 2 months and I see Roma children begging everywhere, they contribute nothing to society and are a burden, particularly during an economic down turn.

    Its good that the French are willing to stand up for themselves, maybe the British should learn a few things from this.

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  • 2. At 3:53pm on 15 Sep 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    GH: "It [France] will also challenge the EU as to why funds earmarked to help the Roma integrate in Romania have not been fully used."





    And why weren't they?

    Does good Commissar Viviane has an answer?

    Or perhaps good Commissar Jose?

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  • 3. At 3:56pm on 15 Sep 2010, DibbySpot wrote:

    If people are coming into a country, even from a fellow EU member and are begging then there should be the right to repatriate them.

    In the UK we should employ the French approach on illegal immigrants immediately. Do not bail them and be surprises they do not show up, and you then spend lots of money tracking them down.

    Life can be hard and unfair better that everyone knows this especially immigrants and economic migrants.If the UK had implemented an agressive and harsh policy early on we would not have the problems we have today.

    Thank fully you do not see to many Poles or Latvians begging - they to their credit are too busy working.

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  • 4. At 4:10pm on 15 Sep 2010, Caspar Heetman wrote:

    "France lives by the law of the Republic and the decisions regarding the dismantling of illegal camps were taken judicially and French law takes priority in France"

    France cannot live by the law of the Republic alone. As a member state of the EU France must at all times comply with European law. Furthermore, all treaties from the now expired ECSC Treaty all the way to the Lisbon Treaty spell out very clearly the relationship of the national and the European law. In case of a conflict of national and European law, the latter takes precedence always and everywhere.

    The law is not something about which one can say that "one respectfully disagrees" as France appears to be doing. That is true for national, supranational and international law and is true for individuals, states and other legal subjects alike.

    Of course, France may disagree with the European treaties on this point, but for such disagreements we as civilised Europeans have invented courts to deal with the matter and do not allow for legal subjects like France to do as suits them and make their own judgements.

    If France doesn't agree with the treaties, it should opt for treaty reform. We know David Cameron will be thrilled by the idea alone.

    Lex dura sed lex. Now matter how tough the law is, it has to be observed lest we head down towards anarchy such as in Greece. I am sure that is not the way we want to go in the Europe.

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  • 5. At 4:12pm on 15 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    This is the quintessential French and European minds at work. The French helped create the EU as a way for them to control Europe along with the Germans, made it bigger to challenge the US and now the monster has gotten beyond their control and threatens to devour them. We have an old saying in my country, be careful what you wish for, you never know when your wish might come true. And so it has, a nascent EU superstate to which France has in part ceded its sovereignty over itself despite the objections of the majority who voted against the EU constitution that it later enacted anyway as the Lisbon treaty by the French government. Hoist on their own petard.

    The French will have a tough case to make that the Roma present a security threat to them. A nuissance yes, an expense yes, but a security threat? Not in their wildest dreams. Petty crimes such as stealing and vagrancy are not a security threat to any nation.

    "France ... will also challenge the EU as to why funds earmarked to help the Roma integrate in Romania have not been fully used."

    That's an easy one. That money went to line the pockets of other people. Europe is as thoroughly corrupt as anywhere in the world. That money wasn't to help the Roma, it was a payoff to get rid of them.

    This and not the financial crisis could spell the end of the EU as they are caught in an irreconcilable problem between their high minded principles written down on paper and their prejudices and intolerance that belies what they have agreed to. It is standard operating procedure for Europeans to agree to all sorts of things that are never enforced like the Stability and Growth pact in Maastrict that was supposed to impose severe penalties for violating it. Why doesn't the EU understand now that it is supposed to look the other way at France's violation of the rules? What part about being European don't they understand? Mendacity is the European way of life. It always has been and it always will be.

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  • 6. At 5:29pm on 15 Sep 2010, ghostofsichuan wrote:

    This is the issue for the EU. Can decisions be made that conflict with the internal decisions of a nation government. Apparently not. The EU has yet to be defined. As an economic community it may have a role, as a legislative body, it may not.

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  • 7. At 6:10pm on 15 Sep 2010, DistantTraveller wrote:

    France's behaviour is illegal under European law - and amounts to ethnic cleansing. EU Law guarantees free movement of citizens as enshrined in the original Treaty of Rome. If some of the Roma camps were causing problems, then this needs to be addressed, but not through mass expulsions or collective punishment.

    If France doesn't like the laws it helped to create, then why are they pressing on with European Superstate? Why did they sign up to Lisbon after their own citizens voted "non"?

    Meanwhile, the United Nations has rightly said the EU does not get special representation. The EU member states are already represented in their own right. Giving the EU its own seat at the table would amount to giving European Countries two votes.

    Unelected "President" Rumpy should stick to sorting out the problems of the EU before seeking an undeserved place on the World Stage.

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  • 8. At 6:56pm on 15 Sep 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    #7 "Meanwhile, the United Nations has rightly said the EU does not get special representation. The EU member states are already represented in their own right. Giving the EU its own seat at the table would amount to giving European Countries two votes."



    When an issue of making EU a member of UN Security Council was raised couple of years ago the answer (a logical one) was that for that to happen France and UK would have to give up their seats in that body.


    Which of course will happen on the same day China agrees on admitting India to UNSC. ;)

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  • 9. At 7:12pm on 15 Sep 2010, ridoca wrote:

    2. powermeerkat wrote:
    GH: "It [France] will also challenge the EU as to why funds earmarked to help the Roma integrate in Romania have not been fully used."

    And why weren't they?
    Does good Commissar Viviane has an answer?
    Or perhaps good Commissar Jose?

    I honestly doubt it! The EU's accounts are so messed up (I'm being nice here, I think we all know what's really going on) that they can't find a single accounting firm to certify their balance...none of them!!! Of course, master of shadyness Barroso has no plans to make that situation any more transparent.

    7. DistantTraveller
    "EU Law guarantees free movement of citizens as enshrined in the original Treaty of Rome. "
    Ja, aber...they must have work or residency permits if they wish to stay longer than three months. This is also true of any Brit wanting to stay in France longer than 3 months.

    So the only issue here is of form, rather than substance; in other words, as long as France can prove that each case was handled on a case-to-case basis, than the French autorities are not breaching any law against racial or ethnic discrimination.

    And I stress the fact that it is a problem of form rather than substance, simply because there is probably not one single country in the EU that likes the presence of Roma camps on their soil (not even and especially Bulgaria and Romania!). Why? it's simple; they create a para-state where kids get forcefully married at 12, foced to beg, steal etc, women are trated as garbage, drugs exchange hands in broad daylight, etc, etc...; just take a quick poll in any police dept in the EU that has dealt with Romas and they will confirm all of this.

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  • 10. At 7:21pm on 15 Sep 2010, democracythreat wrote:

    How many jews were butchered in Europe under the justification of "security"?

    The answer, of course, is all of them.

    Anyone who threatens the state can be defined as a security risk. So can anyone whom the state choose to persecute in order to whip up a nationalistic frenzy of hate. Indeed, EVERYONE who has ever been butchered by the state has been designated a security threat prior to liquidation, That is the noise a state makes when it is killing on folks. That isn't a radical proposition, by any stretch. Pick any genocide or mass murder by any state you choose. Somewhere at the top of the power chain you will find a goon in a state uniform, a party member, who preached that he was saving the society from a grave threat.

    So the question we all need to ask ourselves is whether the Roma in their camps are a real threat to French security.

    You could argue that they are, but only in the same way as jews were a security threat to the third reich. So it is, by necessity, an argument that shares some pretty miserable historical company.

    The more interesting point for civilized people to take away from this shower of mental filth emanating from the halls of European power is that the EU is not going to do anything about it, in terms of holding France accountable in a practical sense.

    It is not that the chaps from Brussels do not understand human rights law. They do. They just can't enforce it. The structure of European judicial justice is such that the judiciary are bound fast to the political parties who have secured their rank, and upon whom their family businesses depend for future prosperity.

    Every British citizen must watch this episode with real care, and reflect upon their own system of law. The system of politics in the UK may be quaint and more than slightly ridiculous, and it may be true to claim that the British citizen has about as much political emancipation an a rock lobster in a soup bowl, but this does not change the choices the British people have with regard to the judicial power which rules over them.

    The institutions of the EU, most especially the judiciary, are simply not fit and proper for the purpose of protecting human rights. Whether they even want to do so is an open question. Whether they have ever done so effectively is not, and nor is it doubted that they will take no steps here to end the abuses they like to condemn in the press.

    Just as the judiciary of the EU stands by and watches mass human rights abuse in Latvia on a daily basis, and does absolutely nothing, so too must they sit and watch and do nothing while the French fascists torment their victims.

    Never be in any doubt about one particular fact of European history: while the jewish children were burning in the ovens having their bodies broken by rifle butts of uniformed party members, literally hundreds and thousands of jurists wrote long and meaningful paragraphs about the philosophy of human rights. Possibly the most moving and heartfelt came from German jurists.

    And that all counted for nothing at all, because the sentiments of a judiciary are dust in the wind next to the inevitable influence of the political economy of the state in which a judiciary operates.

    As long as Europe is ruled by civil law, there can be no human rights for Europeans.

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  • 11. At 7:29pm on 15 Sep 2010, stirling222 wrote:

    I have wondered for years why the French so desperately want European laws installed that they have no desire to adhere to, themselves. Part of me admires the difference in attitude towards European law when compared to our own.

    This development, however, is clearly the behaviour of the metaphorical spoilt child who has become a little too used to doing whatever they like and never being questioned. I'm going to watch this with interest.

    Btw, MAII, 'careful what you wish for...' is a phrase that existed for centuries before Christopher Columbus even got an itchy bunion.

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  • 12. At 8:02pm on 15 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    I again bring up the issue of Sangatte which proves the French are hypocrites. Sangatte was an encampment of illegal aliens near the French terminus of the chunnel in Calais. They were bound for the UK and were tolerated for years by the French government despite constant complaints by local French citizens of the conditions they lived in and the disturbance they created to nearby communities. If the Roma are a security risk now to France now, why weren't those a risk then? But despite years of complaints to do something to put an end to it by the British government the French did nothing? Why? Because they wanted illegal aliens to go to Britain. Part of an overall stategy against the UK. Same as their strategy against the US with respect to Iraq. Allies in union? Don't make me laugh.

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  • 13. At 8:26pm on 15 Sep 2010, MaxSceptic wrote:

    The French sensibly ignore EU regulations and 'laws' that conflict with French interests.

    Britain - and other EU member states - should do the same.

    Hopefully this 'anarchy' will totally emasculate the EU empire builders and it will become what we thought we were joining in 1975: a free trade zone and not a supra-national super-state 'Grande Project'.

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  • 14. At 8:40pm on 15 Sep 2010, stirling222 wrote:

    Cheers for the history lesson, Ellie, but Sangatte is well documented and everyone knows about the French attitude towards it.

    You wouldn't be using the issue in a misguided attempt to stir up resentment between a couple of prominent European nations, would you? You have, after all, made it clear on a number of ocassions you regard Europe as 'the enemy'.

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  • 15. At 8:51pm on 15 Sep 2010, Fritzi wrote:

    Up the French! Here in America we have a phrase we use when we disagree not only with the form of a law but also its effect: "The law is an ass." The French clearly consider the effect of unrestricted immigration to be unacceptable when the people involved break local laws and become a drain upon public finances. The French should throw the question back to the EU: To whom does a national government have its first responsibility - the EU or the citizens of the particular country? The French have answered that question with action. Funny times when we look to the French as examples of backbone.

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  • 16. At 9:36pm on 15 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Fritz;

    "To whom does a national government have its first responsibility - the EU or the citizens of the particular country? The French have answered that question with action."

    Yes they have. They ceded their sovereignty to the EU superstate by signing the Lisbon Treaty (just like they signed all the other treaties) even though their population voted it down when it was presented to them in another form called the Constitution. At least some of sovereignty over France belongs to the MEPs in Brussels now. To get it back the French would have to leave the EU.

    The EU is a union in name only. Whether it's the French and Germans not paying their fines under the Stability and Growth pact in Maastrict they themselves insisted on but violated regularly, the necessity for Germans to bail out the bankrupt governments whose accoutns are fictitious lies even though they were assured that would never happen, or the French expulsion of Roma violating their rights under EU law to travel freely within the EU, the European Union would better be named the European disUnion. Or maybe the European Union of Backstabbing Turncoats. IMO this is why the French are trying to create a Mediteranean Union. They need at least one place they can hold court and have the final say. As an EU member they don't have one anymore not even in France.

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  • 17. At 9:41pm on 15 Sep 2010, Mickalus wrote:

    4. At 4:10pm on 15 Sep 2010, Caspar Heetman wrote:

    Well said!

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  • 18. At 10:00pm on 15 Sep 2010, MaxSceptic wrote:

    The BBC reports: A senior Papal adviser has pulled out of the Pope's UK visit after saying arriving at Heathrow airport was like landing in a "Third World" country.

    I guess it takes an outsider to see reality as it is.

    I felt the same thing recently when I visited a Tesco supermarket in Lewisham. It' is strange to feel 'abroad' in one's own country.

    I guess we must have voted for UK 'multiculturalism' in the same way as we did when we were asked whether we wanted 'ever closer [political] union' when joining the European Economic Community.

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  • 19. At 10:00pm on 15 Sep 2010, Samore wrote:

    It is clear that Sarkozy obtained his scientific facts about the Roma from a Viz comic (French translation).

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  • 20. At 10:02pm on 15 Sep 2010, DistantTraveller wrote:

    # 15 FrtziDog

    "The French clearly consider the effect of unrestricted immigration to be unacceptable"

    If that's true, then France has only itself to blame as one of the main architects of the emerging EU Superstate where EU legislation overrides national sovereignty. It would have been far better to stick with the 'Common Market' as a simple trading partnership. I expect if you asked the citizens of France (and other countries) many will feel that they have been hoodwinked by their own leaders who have imposed something that no-one actually voted for.

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  • 21. At 10:48pm on 15 Sep 2010, U14592372 wrote:

    The French have a right to fight crime. But deporting Roma just means a gap before they return, since there's nothing there for them back in Romania and Bulgaria. There needs to be a framework put in place to integrate Roma into wider European society, whichever country they live in.

    More on the Roma expulsions:
    http://rulehibernia.com/2010/09/france-throwing-out-roma/

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  • 22. At 00:53am on 16 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    I think it is unfortunate that BBC allowed somone to have a monicker almost identical to mine. Pay close attention or you may be fooled when you do not get the genuine article.

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  • 23. At 02:51am on 16 Sep 2010, burtine wrote:

    @5; Marcus Anachronismus, said:
    "This and not the financial crisis could spell the end of the EU".
    Hahahaha, you are so funny... Next week, you will say that the changing climate will spell the end of the EU... Oh, wait, an even better one: the depletion of cod in the North Sea: THE END OF THE EU!!! You have your mantras you constantly recite, only the reasons need to be found to recite them and now it is this one...
    I hadn't visited this blog for some weeks, but I see nothing changes much, the same old rants by the same old 65+ retired history teachers...

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  • 24. At 03:22am on 16 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    burptime;

    "...the same old 65+ retired history teachers..."

    I am not 65 years old yet
    I am not retired
    I am not a history teacher

    Strike three! Yer Out!

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  • 25. At 06:58am on 16 Sep 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #4 Caspar Heetman
    And if France defies the ECJ and refuses to comply , then what ?
    Throw France out of the EU ? Or might that cause the break up of the EU ?
    I wonder whether those like you who are condemning France's expulsion of Roma from Romania and Bulgaria , who have not applied for residency or legitimate work , understand the seriousnes of the problem . I read some people refering to them as beggers . That is the least of their activities ; children are pickpocketing , adolescents and teenagers are cat burglars , others are ride by handbag snatchers . The camps on the edge of cities become filthy , unhygenic , rat infested areas . Roma activities are not small time , thieving is a large scale activity , that causes fear and anxiety to the indiginous residents . Citizen have a right not to be preyed upon by thieves and vagabonds . There government has a right to take action in their defence . This is not ethnic cleansing aimed at all Roma in France , the majority of whom are French citizens or have permanent residence ; it is aimed solely at those people , Roma or otherwise , who have exceeded 3 months stay , have no legitimate means to live by or job and have not sought residency . Cities do not need Filthy encampments on their fringes . Europe should be standing up for France .

    #7 DistantTraveller
    France's interest in keeping the EU going is MONEY . France is by far the biggest recipient from the EU of any member state .

    #23 Birtine
    It is too soon to laugh !!! The whole of the western world is in turmoil , the USA and Europe are balancing on an economic knife edge and Europe can by no means justly claim that it has the support of the people . In clearing unwanted Roma camps , Sarkozi does have the French peoples support .

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  • 26. At 07:45am on 16 Sep 2010, stirling222 wrote:

    MaxSceptic wrote:
    "The BBC reports: A senior Papal adviser has pulled out of the Pope's UK visit after saying arriving at Heathrow airport was like landing in a "Third World" country.

    I guess it takes an outsider to see reality as it is"

    He was exaggerating the perceived negative view of Catholicism in the country not making reference to skin colour.

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  • 27. At 08:35am on 16 Sep 2010, burtine wrote:

    @25 Huaimek: "#23 Birtine, It is too soon to laugh !!! The whole of the western world is in turmoil".
    Fully correct, it's all a big mess. I was by no means laughing about that, just laughing about someone's excuses for well-known rants, not the state of the world economy...
    For one, I am in favour of kicking Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain out of the Euro zone. Unfortunately, that is not possible. But I predict Greece will indeed leave by itself.

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  • 28. At 08:43am on 16 Sep 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    reidoca wrote: "And I stress the fact that it is a problem of form rather than substance, simply because there is probably not one single country in the EU that likes the presence of Roma camps on their soil (not even and especially Bulgaria and Romania!)"






    According to news wires and BBC itself, there are several other EU countries which expell their Roma people as well, except that they're doing it more tacitly than France and Italy.

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  • 29. At 08:50am on 16 Sep 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "If France doesn't like the laws it helped to create, then why are they pressing on with European Superstate?"


    When France and Germany were pushing for it they thought Paris and Berlin would dominate Brussels' agenda.

    Since an admission of more E. European coutries to EU their votes in that organization have lost much of their initial importance so they've begun to have second thoughts.

    In case of Germany: when the country was told it's obligated to bail out practically every bankrupt within eurozone; in case of France: when the country was told its laws don't matter unless Brussels decides they can be applied.

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  • 30. At 09:29am on 16 Sep 2010, Benefactor wrote:

    22 MAII

    It's not that the BBC allowed it, it's automated, it is on every website I have ever visited that requires you to register.


    You never know, they might ban him when they notice. It is almost certainly a second login & not many sites allow that.

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  • 31. At 10:01am on 16 Sep 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    Re #13 " Hopefully this 'anarchy' will totally emasculate the EU empire builders and it will become what we thought we were joining in 1975: a free trade zone and not a supra-national super-state 'Grande Project'."






    vide APEC- an economic association of otherwise incompatible countries presenting the biggest challenge by far to EUSSR's grandiose schemes.

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  • 32. At 10:05am on 16 Sep 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    sterling: "He was exaggerating the perceived negative view of Catholicism in the country not making reference to skin colour."


    Catholicism in U.K. reinforced by immigrants. (acc. do British sources)

    No, not from Pakistan.


    More like Poland. :)

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  • 33. At 11:53am on 16 Sep 2010, U14592213 wrote:

    The Roma: France fights back
    _____________________________

    Roma, Gypsy and Turkish are all officially classified as 'White' people.

    http://raceequalitysecretservice.blogspot.com/2010/09/race-equality-inspectorate.html


    Should the Roma, Gypsy and Turkish people be embraced without reserve as part of the White European family?


    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    IS NICHOLAS SARKOZY JEWISH?

    "President Nicolas Sarkozy was furious after European Justice Commissioner Viviane Reding appeared to compare France's removal of Roma with Gypsy deportations during World War II."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11323053




    ARE YOU WHITE OR JEWISH?

    http://raceequalitysecretservice.blogspot.com/2010/08/are-you-white-or-jewish.html


    Think carefully.

    Answer intelligently.

    What say ye? (What say you all?)

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  • 34. At 11:55am on 16 Sep 2010, jr4412 wrote:

    Gavin Hewitt.

    "France will insist it has broken no European laws and has the right to remove Roma.."

    perhaps so and this issue will keep many well-to-do lawyers in bread, no doubt.

    it is clear though that the biggest 'crime' committed by 'the Roma' is their adherence to their cultural traditions which are incompatible with the expectations of the majority, Christian settlers; the Roma have been persecuted across Europe for far longer than many of the nation states have been in existence.

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  • 35. At 12:50pm on 16 Sep 2010, Chris wrote:

    "France will insist it has broken no European laws and has the right to remove Roma on the grounds of security. "

    Looking at it from a very high level it doesn't look like they broke any laws, what they are doing may not be very "nice" but it doesn't look like they broke any laws either. If you have a group of people that live in camp that doesn't belong to them, if they are Roma, French, Germans or Finish should make no difference, they should move out of that camp. We have similar situations with UK national that some times they drink too much and make a nonsense of themselves, then the Greek, Czech, etc. states send them back to us. I would imagine if a group of Brits took over an olivegrove or a public square that didn't belong to them and made a nonsense of themselves there, the local authorities would send them back to the UK. So, unless the French police goes around people's homes, ask them for their ethnicity and based on that expel them, I don't see how they break the law??

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  • 36. At 12:54pm on 16 Sep 2010, Chris wrote:

    #33. At 11:53am on 16 Sep 2010, RESS wrote:

    "ARE YOU WHITE OR JEWISH?"

    What is that question?

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  • 37. At 12:57pm on 16 Sep 2010, Freeman wrote:

    That is getting real old, real fast RESS

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  • 38. At 12:58pm on 16 Sep 2010, Freeman wrote:

    "French law takes priority in France"

    Generally known, yet it is gratifying to hear it straight from the source. The EU was built for France.

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  • 39. At 2:05pm on 16 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Evidently vagrancy, burglary, and pickpocketing are crimes punishable in France by deportation only if you are an EU citizen who is not a French citizen. So would that eliminate the problems of thievery in France. Clearly anyone who has come to that conclusion has not been taken for a ride in a Paris taxi. What is the punishment for those rowdy soccer hooligan British drunks who start riots, thow beer bottles, smash cars, start fires, and attack the police (one lost his eye) after soccer matches. I say the French should deport all Brits in France by sending them back to the third world country they came from.

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  • 40. At 3:15pm on 16 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Freeman;

    "The EU was built for France."

    Small wonder it doesn't work. Rube Goldberg would have been jealous he didn't think of it first.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qybUFnY7Y8w

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  • 41. At 3:39pm on 16 Sep 2010, peevedoff wrote:

    France and Mr Sarkosy.Do not be like our lilly livered politicians here in the once Great Britain and bow down to every half wit who jumps on the p.c and human rights bandwagon every time someone voices an opinion or takes action they dont like ,its what our fore fathers sacrificed their lives for and what people like myself and millions like me faithfully served OUR COUNTRY for.I never thought i would be saying this but "FRANCE AND MR SARKOSY I SALUTE YOU"and so do the vast majority of hard working decent people here in Britain who wish our so called leaders had the same guts(we just cannot say it)because we no longer have freedom of speech or expression here for fear of offending those who come here purely to take advantage of our generosity and abuse our way of life.There should be one rule only concerning anyone coming to OUR countries(come by all means but if you do not respect our people,our ways and our laws dont come as you are not wanted).Unfortunately the Roma are only a very small part of a very huge problem that is causing much civil disenchantment from otherwise decent people and soon its going to be a problem that all governments are going to have to seriously address because we the public will demand it.

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  • 42. At 4:12pm on 16 Sep 2010, phoenix wrote:

    Hey has anyone begun to just scroll down when they see MAII comments? It's become almost a reflex action with me now, its that good.

    Regarding France. While I sympathise with the EU position on this who are rightly chiding france on mass deportations by singling out one race, I can understand France's position. Unfortunately the Roma have a culture that is very much at odds with modern life and causes a lot of tension in society.Multiple attempts of child kidnapping and wanton violence does not endear you to the local population as some members have found out in Italy. It may fall on the onus of France 'proving' that the Roma are a 'security threat'. Unfortunately Human and workers rights insist that the focus is on individuals rather than communitiues/races/cultures which is theory is laudable. But what happens when a 'cerished cultural attitudes' prevail on individuals that cause tensions in the wider society. Human Rights Yes. Cultural Relativism No. The EU will have to seriously look at how this law is interpreted.

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  • 43. At 4:14pm on 16 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Powermeerkat;

    Europe famous for its artists seems to have painted itself into a very tight corner it can't get out of. Lots of different colors to that pattern just like in the Rube Goldberg video linked in #40. Only Europe doesn't have any goggles to shield its eyes and it can't merely step aside the way those in the video could have if they'd wanted to.

    I think America will solve its problems which mostly revolve around its economy now. (it has many times in the past.) But I don't see how Europe will ever escape from theirs. Should be interesting watching them squirm.

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  • 44. At 4:41pm on 16 Sep 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    "I say the French should deport all Brits in France by sending them back to the third world country they came from."




    Watch out! Cardinal Walter Kasper has been removed [on accout of sickness ;)] from the papal delegation to UK for his "third world country" remark. And he was referring merely to Heathrow.

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  • 45. At 5:32pm on 16 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Powermeerkat, I thought he said that when you land at Heathrow you feel like you are entering a third world country. He didn't say once you got past Heathrow whether or not there is anything to change that perception. I wonder of people who live in third world countries take offense at that comparison :-)

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  • 46. At 5:33pm on 16 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    phoenix, I hope you enjoyed the video.

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  • 47. At 5:50pm on 16 Sep 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    MAII wrote: I think America will solve its problems which mostly revolve around its economy now. (it has many times in the past.) But I don't see how Europe will ever escape from theirs.




    However as far as a flood of illegal immigrants (often criminals) is concerned we have a similar problem.

    As you know, so called 'webacks' although many of them get to U.S. through tunnels now and not by wading across Rio Grande) when cought, have been so far not arrested, but simply bussed to Tijuana and dumped on the Mexican side from which they have been trying to sneak into U.S. again. And again. And again.

    In case of EU there's also a high likelihood that Roma people - unsatified with conditions in communism-pauperized Bulgaria and even more Romania - will try to get to France, Italy, etc., again. And again. And again.

    A tough problem to solve.

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  • 48. At 6:04pm on 16 Sep 2010, Atomic_Mash wrote:

    When will these insignificant EU bureaucrats learn that that's exactly what they are when it comes to matters that are important to France or Germany? These two play and talk nice when their interests aren't threatened. Once they are, the EU becomes a pesky nuisance.

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  • 49. At 6:15pm on 16 Sep 2010, sjm wrote:

    I live in France and while confirming that Gypsy camps are only accepted when far from one's own backyard, the French government's position is intolerable. Where quite does the president consider the right place for travelling people? Is not integration better than expulsion? Should not a civilised country's position be to help the poorest and least powerful in society rather than punish them for their lack of economic input. A softer more consensual solution must be found.

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  • 50. At 6:17pm on 16 Sep 2010, will wrote:

    Being a British citizen having lived in France for the last 25 years, I think I have the right to reply here. We have seen a dramatic increase of these "ROMS" as they are called in France, over the last two years. During these last two years, there has been an increase in begging (rarely seen here before their arrival), but more seriously, in burglary, and drunks. The women arrive in mass with their children to go through the contents of the rubbish we throw out. That wouldn't be a problem if they would at least leave the place as clean as possible, but no, litter strewn all over the place. We, ordinary people, are fed up with these daily scenes.
    I'm not a fascist or extremist, far from it, just an ordinary person who would like to keep up a certain standard of living, something that has become impossible (to a certain extent) today.
    PS: to all those do-gooders, why don't they create some of these filthy camps in their upper crust neighbourhoods. I, for once, agree with the French government.

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  • 51. At 6:22pm on 16 Sep 2010, commonsense_expressway wrote:

    #45

    "I wonder of people who live in third world countries take offense at that comparison :-) "
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    "Monsignor Oliver Lahl, Kasper's spokesman, said the cardinal considered the matter closed following a Vatican statement that claimed he was merely highlighting Britain's multi-ethnic makeup.

    "Kasper meant to say there are people there from all around the world and you could be in Mumbai, Kinshasa, Islamabad or Nairobi," said Lahl.

    "It was not a negative connotation, it was the opposite of racism. He meant the UK is no longer a mono-ethnic or mono-religious state, and can be a positive example for Europe."


    Dont let that stop you from repeating the claim that Britain is a third-world country ad nauseum from now till Doomsday. Your capacity for endless repetition should guarantee it.

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  • 52. At 6:25pm on 16 Sep 2010, David Seaton wrote:

    Reading the comments it is easy to see how close fascism is to the surface in Europe. The commission mustn't back down on what amounts to ethnic cleansing.

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  • 53. At 6:26pm on 16 Sep 2010, richardbalfour wrote:

    what did we do in yugoslavia. ethnic cleansing? three sets of peoples were committing atrocities against each other with equal vitriol, and we stepped in and blamed the serbs, and even let terrorists take over a part of serbia. is it ethnic cleansing to remove people who have no regard for law, are only seemingly capable of robbing, stealing, burgling, generally causing a nuisance, and never contributing to society, but expect the right to receive all they require. no it is not. i totally agree with sarcozy, and wish our leaders would act the same, but i'm not holding my breath.

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  • 54. At 6:51pm on 16 Sep 2010, remarkabledermiebutt wrote:

    MarcusAureliusII.....
    As ever, you talk absolute rubbish.
    You live in your comfortable little cacoon in USA, purporting to have lived in France many, many years ago (so your experiences are no longer relevant) and have no idea as to what the conditions are here in Europe, let alone France.
    So please, shut up or come over here, live the real life of Europe in todays terms, then feel free to comment knowledgeably about affairs that at the moment, of which you have little or no idea.
    Look to the state of your precious USA with their "freedoms" before you criticise others.
    Lord above, you are, as an American, not in a position, learned or otherwise, to look askance at anyone until you look internally at yourself.
    I suspect you back the Tea Party politics of the radical Reps?

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  • 55. At 6:52pm on 16 Sep 2010, PJohnston wrote:

    Roma also beg and clutter up the streets of my city thanks to the EU.

    Each day these people, with their hands out stretched, or rifling through skips/rubbish bins visually remind me of EU failure. Local authorities, apparently paralyzed by threat of the "R word", and local politicians both turn a blind eye as the numbers grow.

    I am sick of those who demand I "celebrate the diversity" visited on my city by these people. No one asked for it, no one wants it.

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  • 56. At 7:13pm on 16 Sep 2010, jo5319 wrote:

    Anybody noticed the glaring, hypocritic twist of events in French politics?

    Sarkozy is the first French President of Jewish heritage.
    It seems totally "logical" that he is the undaunted at using the same scapegoating rhetorics that targeted Jews in World War II to target the Romas.

    This tactic is frequently used by Republicans and other politicians in the United States:
    Place a minority in high profile, use the minority politician to make
    the most unjustified, and unfair comments against other minorities -- outrageous things that nobody else dares to say.

    But sorry, Sarkozy. That old trick does not work any more-- at least not for those who are clear minded.

    Nicolas: take some time and watch(or read) Agatha Christie's King of Clubs. The story explains why the Roma people get the false reputation of being responsible for crimes. A bad guy got killed by "good" people whom he had been blackmailing. The "good" people left false trails that would incriminate the Roma people living nearby by claiming, falsely, to have seen somebody with dirty filthy boots hiding in the dead man's home. Even though Hercules Poirot knew who the identity of the true murderer, he let the case grow cold and unsolved, leaving a permanent, false rumor that some Roma had done it.

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  • 57. At 7:21pm on 16 Sep 2010, remarkabledermiebutt wrote:

    Marcus....
    Just for the record, and an interesting read to help you understand the old maxim "people in glass houses....etc"
    go to www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11332635
    Then post something sensible, without bile or anti-Europe etc.

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  • 58. At 7:52pm on 16 Sep 2010, will wrote:

    to MarcusAureliusII

    Perhaps you should examing U.S. policies towards some bordering countries before casting your opinion (critisism) on European policies
    EG : Mexico – United States barrier (why not Canada?)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_%E2%80%93_United_States_barrier

    We, Europeans, still refrain from such steps.

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  • 59. At 8:02pm on 16 Sep 2010, jo5319 wrote:

    PJohnston:

    Listen to yourself:

    "people, with their hands out stretched, or rifling through skips/rubbish bins"

    Similar images filled Oliver Twist, and many other Dicken's masterpieces that moved generations to untold compassion. Similar passages were among the most moving passages in one of France's most famous novelist, Victor Hugo.

    These people are not doing anything different than any other poor people who struggle to survive.


    Between the lines, you admitted to a desire to keep your neighborhood free of poor people due to a type of disdain no different from what was famouly expounded by the Scrooge.

    And then you jumped to "failed policies" by the EU, admitting indirectly that you are scapegoating these poor "dirty" people for the high employment rate, as if the deficit is due to people rummaging through the scraps that you throw away! Go read a Christmas Carol again and recognize your reflection in the novel! If they never work, like you are accusing, then they did not take jobs away from the likes of you, correct?!

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  • 60. At 8:03pm on 16 Sep 2010, DurstigerMann wrote:

    That a nation doesn`t want unproductive immigrants and makes them leave by paying them money to do so is nothing out of the ordinary by itself.
    To tar all Roma with the same brush is bewildering.

    What`s really interesting, however, is the name of the country: France.
    The "inventor" and leader of the EU who pushed hard for all that is the EU of today.
    And now apparently is pushing against these very ideas it promoted before.

    It`s not that France is ignoring EU laws and regulations. Romania is not a member of Schengen yet.
    But it showcases a conflict that might very well become a huge problem in the near future as most European nations are gradually turning away from their liberal stances towards unqualified immigrants as well as stateless people and others asking for asylum.
    Hostility towards migrants from islamic culture is growing.
    And whatever signal France as the leader is giving will have a tremendous impact on overall EU policy and the stance of smaller nations towards immigration.

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  • 61. At 8:17pm on 16 Sep 2010, MaxSceptic wrote:

    stirling222 @ wrote:

    "He [the papal advisor] was exaggerating the perceived negative view of Catholicism in the country not making reference to skin colour."

    Actually, the papal 'clarification' specifically mentions that the comment was about British "multiculturalism".

    One may therefore draw one's own conclusions.

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  • 62. At 8:20pm on 16 Sep 2010, MaxSceptic wrote:

    "Kasper meant to say there are people there from all around the world and you could be in Mumbai, Kinshasa, Islamabad or Nairobi," said Lahl.

    Where does one go if one wants to be in England?

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  • 63. At 9:32pm on 16 Sep 2010, PJohnston wrote:

    @ 8:02pm on 16 Sep 2010, jo5319 wrote:

    jo5319 spare me your faux moralizing. I am not ashamed in wanting my city to be free of beggers and skip thieves. Why import more? Nor do I feel it is my responsibility to "raise up" foreigners or teach them that "No, sorry, not all cultures are equally 'valuable' and yes, your culture IS an unacceptable disgrace".

    The EU failure I alluded to was the EU's invitation to the desperately poor counties these people belong to into the club. In its rush toward "big bang expansion" and territorial conquest the EU failed to think forward, and a mass migration of poverty from east to west took place. Now the wheels have fallen off its the fault of UK people who don't want to be knee deep in beggers? Please.

    France is right to deport the problem back to where it came from.

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  • 64. At 9:55pm on 16 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    nonsense offramp #51

    He didn't say it looks like a multiethnic or multi racial society in Britain. He didn't say it looks like the UN in Britain. He said "THIRD WORLD." You and the Catholic church can dance around it all you like, he said what he said.

    "Dont let that stop you from repeating the claim that Britain is a third-world country ad nauseum from now till Doomsday."

    I didn't intend to. BTW, would you say Pakistan is in the third world?

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  • 65. At 9:58pm on 16 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    won't;

    "to MarcusAureliusII

    Perhaps you should examing U.S. policies towards some bordering countries before casting your opinion (critisism) on European policies
    EG : Mexico – United States barrier (why not Canada?)"

    America hasn't entered into a political union with either of them where freedom of unrestricted movement across borders by their citizens subject to enforcement by an extranational superstate government is guaranteed. The comparison is not valid.

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  • 66. At 10:07pm on 16 Sep 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #52. At 6:25pm on 16 Sep 2010, David Seaton wrote:

    "Reading the comments it is easy to see how close fascism is to the surface in Europe. The commission mustn't back down on what amounts to ethnic cleansing."

    Why do people always say fascism when in reality it is often communism/Socialism, in the case of France it could be either or a 'melange' of both, but then again Social Europe couldn't possibly do such a thing to the Roma, or could it?

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  • 67. At 10:12pm on 16 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    I find it interesting to note that in America we had a problem with a large minority of people who were easily distinguishable from the mainstream by virtue of the color of their skin. Predominantly descended from slaves brought to work the plantations in the South they did not have a history of mainstream culture or social values such as strong family ties, respect for property, desire for education, a strong work ethic, and clustered in enclaves where they were largely impovrished and lived in an environment of crime, disease, filth, and all of the other social ills imaginable. Europeans chastised Americans for it at every opportunity.

    But America recognized its problem and slowly but surely dealt with it. It tried many things some of which worked and many that failed. As time went on this minority was absorbed into the mainstream and continues to be. Among its numbers its members achieve the highest positions in our society including now President of the United States.

    Now the shoe is on the other foot and Europe faces a similar problem but on a much smaller scale. Now it is an American's turn to say to Europeans exactly what they were saying to Americans about blacks in our country only up to a short time ago. Will Europe be able to do what America did and is doing to bring its minorities into the mainstream, to fully integrate them into its society? Are you kidding? There isn't a snowballs chance in hell of it. And that truth of that fact is one of the indicators that Europe is clearly a far inferior society to America. This is just one more example of it.

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  • 68. At 11:24pm on 16 Sep 2010, stirling222 wrote:

    Re: #67

    Would you suggest we look carefully at the fine example the US shows us on the Mexican border, too?

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  • 69. At 11:52pm on 16 Sep 2010, David wrote:

    The main thing I see from far away from the situation is this...

    How ironic that with open borders in Europe, gypsys traditions of nomadic living are looked on as illegal.

    Europe does need change, but hmmmm, what kind of change is actually going to be of benefit.

    No. One, Muslims and their culture needs to be integrated into Europe and European culture, because it would be illegal to throw them out of their respective EU nations.

    So, Europe, integrate, integrate, integrate....stop with the separate but equal policies!

    Those policies are so South USA and so 1930s, '40s, '50s and 19th century.

    Yup this IS the France and EU company whom provided equal status havens to African Americans way back when, is it not?

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  • 70. At 00:20am on 17 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Did Sarkozy lie when he said that Merkel told him that she was going to throw the Roma out of Germany too or did she actually say it to him and then deny it later. At least one of them is lying.

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  • 71. At 01:38am on 17 Sep 2010, 0fred wrote:

    UE low permit ONLY EU citizen to travel everywhere in EU only respecting each country low and with enough money to live in...

    So Romas are not in this case...They have no money !!! and don't respect lows !!!

    It's a fact they have problems with all Eu citizen since middle age...because they don't want or can't be part of European economic system and way of life.

    They have a very conservative social organisation and few are able to be adapted to the new economic world.

    They have to accept hard change in their life style for their "integration" and open discussion how to finish with their parasite way of life with the neighbours.

    They go to Western countries because in East Europa they hate them from hundreds of years and live separately since their arrival from India and Pakistan Thousand year ago

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  • 72. At 01:52am on 17 Sep 2010, 0fred wrote:

    Mark Aurelius II
    What did you smoke or drink ???
    Integration in USA is a dream...gang make the law in the principal districts of the big cities and Latino's hunting is a daily reality...
    Illegal immigrant works for nothing for the new slave who don't to pay the price for a good American work's forces !!!

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  • 73. At 03:33am on 17 Sep 2010, jo5319 wrote:

    PJOHNSTON:
    You have your rights to promote philosophies of the Scrooge.

    However, you are committing outrageous defamation and slandering to call me "faux".

    I do not ask people to practice what I myself am not willing to accept.

    I've volunteered free medical services in rural Africa where children were getting deaf from mere ear infections, otherwise healthy workers are linded by cataract surgery that lasts less than 2 hours.


    I've worked in the ghettos in Chicago, where lead poisoned children get returned to dilapidated public housing homes with lead-laden paint chips falling off the walls. Yet, the politicians protect the American lead paint producing industries, the construction industries, and even the government housing from legal responsibilities.

    I've worked and volunteered to help other children of illegal immigrants, and very aware of the realistic difficulties and challenges of the social problems, and its real cost. There are arguments that are logical, rational and supportive of your conclusion that I do accept, but not your rhetorics and arguments. That's because you buttress your argument on philosophies that are no different from the Scrooge's. Your rhetoric is hauntingly reminiscent of the popular movement in Germany immediately preceding World War II. Those folks were just as self-righteous as you.

    No. I did not misunderstand the timing of when the most vulnerable ethnic, religious or economic groups ALWAYS get attacked and picked on to vent the majorities frustration at times of economic downturn.

    In the late 1920s, to 1930s, Germany, as well as the world suffered a deep depression after the 1929 Wall Street crash. The Jews and Roma people were picked on in a very "righteous" way, just like your rhetoric. That was a democratic country. Hitler was popularly elected in a country with the most advanced educational system at the time.

    Yes, your rhetoric sounds exactly like the Scrooge, and exactly like the Germans who elected the extreme right that moved their country eventually to embrace outright scapegoating of the Jews and Roma.

    You made an feeble attempt to rationalzie your previous comment on "EU policies", but there is no validity to your argument. There is no EU policy that carries the goal you proclaim. THerefore, if the latter argument is what you really attempted in the first place, it was invalid because you misportrayed the purpose of the EU policy. Your argument should be ignored by any rational and logical person.

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  • 74. At 07:06am on 17 Sep 2010, DurstigerMann wrote:

    @69 DavidStvn

    "The main thing I see from far away from the situation is this...

    How ironic that with open borders in Europe, gypsys traditions of nomadic living are looked on as illegal.

    Europe does need change, but hmmmm, what kind of change is actually going to be of benefit.

    No. One, Muslims and their culture needs to be integrated into Europe and European culture, because it would be illegal to throw them out of their respective EU nations.

    So, Europe, integrate, integrate, integrate....stop with the separate but equal policies!

    Those policies are so South USA and so 1930s, '40s, '50s and 19th century.

    Yup this IS the France and EU company whom provided equal status havens to African Americans way back when, is it not?"

    I don´t want to dispute that we need to take people with us who are not really integrated today, yet were born or grew up in a European country. Or lived here for long.

    The strange thing is that European nations did a lot to integrate migrants.
    In Germany for example it went so far that we have forms for social welfare benefits in Turkish language.
    Needless to say that this didn`t work out.

    Integration is always something that must be wanted by both the migrant and his new home country.
    He has a personal responsibility to integrate, which means nothing else than:
    -learn the language
    -accept the laws and values of the new home nation

    It might seem counter intuative, but a less friendly policy might actually help those who are not quite willing to integrate.
    No social benefit forms in other languages. No government-payed translators to apply for social benefits. No social benefits for non-citizens who haven`t payed into the the social security network yet (taxes).

    And that`s probably just how the USA handle stuff.

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  • 75. At 07:50am on 17 Sep 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #27 birtine

    Well said !!! I agree with you on every point !

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  • 76. At 08:37am on 17 Sep 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #59 jo5319

    I have first had experience of Roma Gypsies in the city of Florence Italy . See my earlier post #25 .

    This is not a touching scene from a Dickens novel.
    I will accept you refering to the Roma as poor in the sympathetic sense ; but the are not so poor in the financial sense .
    There are rich pickings to be stolen in big cities , robbing all the apartments in many of the condominiums , grabing ladies handbags pulling them over in the street as the motorcyclist races by . Female beggars with a baby often have a todler too , who slips his hand into pockets and ladies handbags . I am not guessing or imagining , this is real . You refer to them as travellers , the problem is they only travel TO the big city and do not continue on their way .
    Roma do not seek to settle in permanent homes or have a job with regular income . They are much better off with no overheads , taxes or sending their children to school . When caught the cat burglers are nearly always youngsters who cannot be treated as adult under the law .
    Try going to one of the Gypsy encampments to sing carols and give them some Christmas presents ; wear you gumboots and be careful they don't strip you of every valuable you've got .

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  • 77. At 1:16pm on 17 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    HuRawack;

    "I have first had experience of Roma Gypsies in the city of Florence Italy . See my earlier post #25 .

    This is not a touching scene from a Dickens novel.
    I will accept you refering to the Roma as poor in the sympathetic sense ; but the are not so poor in the financial sense .
    There are rich pickings to be stolen in big cities , robbing all the apartments in many of the condominiums , grabing ladies handbags pulling them over in the street as the motorcyclist races by ."

    There are also police, courts, and prisons for people who commit crimes. They act to take criminals off the street and as a deterrent to demonstrate what happens if people do commit crimes. Don't rail against the Roma, put the blame where it belongs, in the failure of Europeans govenrments to enact and enforce criminal laws. The Roma are not the drug cartels who threaten Mexico and Columbia. They are opportunistic petty theives who thrive because European governments are not functional.

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  • 78. At 7:23pm on 17 Sep 2010, jo5319 wrote:

    Huaimek:
    I am not ignorant of the realities as you implied.
    However, the French policies of deportation is doomed to fail.
    I saw interviews of the deported Roma.
    They vow to return to France.
    One person showed off a nice T-shirt he's wearing. He said he got it from rummaging through the garbage in France.

    How come nobody rummages through my garbage? That's not because no poor people rummage through garbage in this part of the country. It's because those who do learn quickly that there is nothing that can be salvaged in my garbage. Everything that can possibly be recycled, is recycled.

    Old clothes, reusable items are sent to charity organizations so that they can be distributed to those who are truly needy and deserve them.

    For every problem that you seem to imply to be completely somebody else's problems, most of the time, you ignored your own role in creating the problem.

    PJohnston: If you gather your neighbors, organize them to start sorting through material that can be recycled or donated to charity, and leave only true garbage in your garbage bins, I guarantee that at least the familiar "garbage diggers" will skip your neighborhood. They are trying to make a living. They don't do unnecessary "work".

    Better still, if you charter a bus, and send those clothes you deem out of fashion, toys that your children are tired of, and send them to a charity organization in Romania. At least, you will start providing incentives for some to line up in an orderly manner in front of the Charity Distribution Center in Romania, and think twice before coming back to France. Better stil, the Charity Distribution Center will be able to either screen the recipients to give to those who are truly destitute, or sell them at a low cost and use the money to create jobs there.

    Jobs in Romania will be the ultimate incentive to keep the people there.

    Same for healthcare, same for the petty theft problems. If you look closely, most of the time, every one of you who is complaining bitterly will see that your own behavior is contributing to the problem.

    And sending them back to Romania with a few hundred Euros will provide more incentive for them to come back to France, to "earn" another few hundred Euros while being deported.

    You have start seeing them as human beings with dignity, you will never again give handouts to children, which promote this kind of activity.

    Have you travelled to a foreign country where the government exhibit huge signs to tourists, asking them to "respect their citizens' dignity, and do not give treats or handouts to children"?

    For all the handouts that those of you who are complaining bitterly have given, if the money had donated to an organization that gave these people loans to start small business, not as handouts, and insist on the repayment before more can be loaned, I bet there will be a difference. Just like in Bangladesh.

    None of you have considered doing business with the Roma because of your bigotry. You cannot see real solutions, only decisions that are based on your sense of extreme superiority over the Romas. How many of you have accomplished as much as Charlie Chaplin, who has Roma blood in him. Until you remove the log in your eyes, your policies on the Roma people will continue to fail. EU is not invoking any special policies on the Roma people. EU only stipulates that people of all ethnic origin should be treated the same. France is singling out the Romas to vent their frustration at a time of economic strife.

    And Sarkozy: he has debased himself more than folks like PJohnston has.

    Sarkozy is selling his conscience for the votes of a few Scrooges.
    At least the Scrooges are "sincere" in their self-righteousness.

    Sarkozy knows also that the policy will not work yet nonetheless kowtow to his desperate need to hold on to power, thus instituting these policies that will only aggravate your bitter complaints about the Roma people.

    If you prove time and time again, to view human beings as if they are inhuman and beneath you, before long, some will start acting without dignity.

    It's when you start looking at them as if they are capable of much more than committing petty thefts and begging, that they start seeing themselves that way.

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  • 79. At 7:49pm on 17 Sep 2010, PJohnston wrote:

    jo5319 the hard fact of life is that I, nor any Briton, owes these people a thing. You may wish to fritter away your life on helpless causes pursuing whatever rescue fantasy your ego demands, but the rest of us just want to get on, enjoy a career and raise a family. I have my own community and do not appreciate naive people like yourself seeking to graft on problem people because it makes you feel good about yourself. I mean who in their right mind wants to import poverty to the UK? We have enough already!

    And for goodness sake spare us the GCSE history lesson. If anything can be described as totalitarian its your dogmatic nonsense that tries to foist "diversity" onto British citizens who don't want it. And you do NOTHING to help these people by projecting the structural problems of their home societies onto the UK. You want to do something constructive to help Africans and Roma? Tell them to fix the problems in THEIR home societies instead of running away from them! Roma are not my responsibility, Africans are not my responsibility, and your emotional/psychological problems are not my responsibility. I reject your feeble, pleading in trying to make them my responsibility.

    And I will leave you with this thought, the more people like you promote misguided internationalism & solidarity the more likely hardworking British people like myself are to vote in a lunatic like Hitler. Britain has had a bellyfull of your socialist worker claptrap.

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  • 80. At 8:27pm on 17 Sep 2010, jo5319 wrote:

    PJohnston:
    Thank you for mad distortion and slander.

    For example:
    Where and when did I say we should import Romas?

    Quite the contrary, I am pointing out how France's policy promotes Roma to return to France for more panhandling. Therefore, the French policy is doomed to fail.

    You just demoted yourself to a class beneath the Scrooge.

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  • 81. At 8:32pm on 17 Sep 2010, jo5319 wrote:

    By the way, never in my wildest thought did I think I was pleading with you to make any African problem or Roma problem your responsibility.

    I only held you responsible to the illogical and irrational part of your argument, and to the extent that you mistated the goals of the policies of the EU to justify your conclusions.

    Perhaps you felt a tug somewhere from inside yourself to feel compassionate. That's not from the thrust of my arugments--- which is logic. You don't seem to have any!

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  • 82. At 8:38pm on 17 Sep 2010, jo5319 wrote:

    Incidentally, I always hold a full time job while I volunteer to do other things. I uses my yearly vacation to volunteer in Africa.

    PJohnston: your bigotry blinded you to what kind of greater things human beings can achieve in the world when one takes away the preconceived biases, that are loaded in your writing.

    You imagine that good productive volunteer work requires people to give their job. That's not true at all.

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  • 83. At 9:43pm on 17 Sep 2010, PJohnston wrote:

    EU policy encouraged Roma etc. to move west to panhandle and rummage through skips. The infrastructure funds Romania received, for example, have largely been embezzled. EU policy also encourages Africans to leave their overpopulated countries and head north. In general EU policy is one of tolerance for the intolerable mixed with a naive faith in humanity, and a rapacious appetite for cheap, exploitable labor.

    Given the opportunity, unscrupulous people WILL abuse charity and rights gifted to them. You don't appear to understand this basic fact of life but it is essentially France's complaint. Having witnessed the same situation on the streets of the UK I really can't fault their decision in moving these problematic people on. To blame France for Roma setting up camps is laughable. By the same token I suppose Canada is to blame for the dramatic rise in Roma asylum claims which they quickly clamped down on? And Germany is also at fault for planning to remove 12,000 problem migrants who are Roma also? Yes of course, its not problem people who happen to be Roma, its everyone elses fault! Your paternalistic infantilizing of these people smacks of racism. Why do you place responsibility on British citizens and ignore the failure of responsibility of the migrants?

    The rest of your postings are little more than ad-hominem bile spewed from an ivory tower. Holier than thou? I doubt it, but lets give you the benefit of the doubt and pretend your 'charity' isn't a hypocritical egotrip, some kind of "whitemans burden" role which you feel compelled to live out. Does the fact your 'charity' just enables the poverty to continue bother you? Do you even care that it does more harm than good and promotes 'learned helplessness' amongst these groups? It seems you don't. Your naivety perpetuates these situations. Damaging for British people faced with these problems and damaging for the groups you claim to speak on behalf of. Why don't you feel ashamed of your complicity in that?

    Have the last word, as is your want, my patience with your half baked student dribble has passed.

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  • 84. At 10:07pm on 17 Sep 2010, jo5319 wrote:

    PJohnston:
    You did not insult me.
    You insulted the Nobel Prize Committee for awarding the Peace prize to Doctors Without Borders. You insulted Scientists who work hard to provide cures worldwide for innocent children who happen to be poor.

    Or rather, you insulted all Britons for giving an impression that there are a significant people in Britain who think like you!

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  • 85. At 10:15pm on 17 Sep 2010, jo5319 wrote:

    MarcusAureliusII: Sarkozy lied.
    The German Foreign Minister provided the proof that Sarkozy lied.
    He provided:
    (1) Sarkozy claimed that Merkel planned to dismantle Roma camps.
    In fact, the German Foreign Minister said that the Roma people do not live camps. They live in hostels.
    (2) Sarkozy claimed that Merkel planned to defy EU laws and deport the Romas.
    In reply, the German Foreign Minister provided the fact that it is against German law to deport Romas as a group. If Germany deports any person, the file is reviewed case by case. That's the only legal way.

    Therefore, Sarkozy's claim that Angela Merkel planned to deport the Romas in defiance of EU law was unfounded, and was a lie.




    RE: 17 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    Did Sarkozy lie when he said that Merkel told him that she was going to throw the Roma out of Germany too or did she actually say it to him and then deny it later. At least one of them is lying.

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  • 86. At 04:19am on 18 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    PJohnston;

    "jo5319 the hard fact of life is that I, nor any Briton, owes these people a thing."

    "the rest of us just want to get on, enjoy a career and raise a family."

    That may not be correct. While you weren't paying attention, your government was out busy negotiating treaties with its usual artless skill. A treaty is a contract, an exchange of legal obligations. Without public debate, without even consultation these treaties were signed on your behalf and now you and all those in nations whose governments also signed on their behalf must fulfill these obligations. Among the provisions of that treaty was the agreement to subordinate certain of what were Britain's sovereign rights as an independent nation to the authority of outsiders whose judgments may not take what Britain's best interests are into consideration. And your government has also in effect agreed that it could not challenge these determinations. Of course your government is free to terminate these treaties which would effectively terminate its membership in the EU. It is not likely it will succeed in negotiating an exemption from anything it previously agreed to at this late date. What is most puzzling is that not only didn't the treaties have an open debate, they weren't even read by the MPs who voted to ratify them. Certainly most of the British public didn't read them. Even the so called red line opt outs were opt outs in name only, they were deferrals for five years after which Britan would have had to comply with the entire EU constitution or face unlimited penalties imposed by a tribunal on which it would not have a member. And like the constitution itself, the Lisbon Treaty and likely all of the others, they were written in a language so arcane only international lawyers understood them. Few in Europe seemed to object when this was all being done, they thought it would be great, bring them a bright future. Now reality is sinking in.

    "And I will leave you with this thought, the more people like you promote misguided internationalism & solidarity the more likely hardworking British people like myself are to vote in a lunatic like Hitler. Britain has had a bellyfull of your socialist worker claptrap."

    Well the followers of Hitler thought they were voting for a bright future also and look where it got them. You should have thought about this and been active with other Brits to stop it when there was still time. But I suppose you were too busy getting on, enjoying a career, and raising a family. When you turn your head and neglect to keep a close eye on government for even a moment, it becomes a dictatorship. Live with it, it's your system.

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  • 87. At 06:16am on 18 Sep 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #78 jo5319

    Perhaps you could enlarge on how I created the problem .

    I have to ask if you are off your rocker , going on about recycling useable waste to the poor . Most Roma are well able to buy new .
    When I lived in Italy , my village had many separate waste bins , including clothing ; everything possible is recycled . Where I live now my wife and I regularly turn out our wardrobes and give clothing to needy neighbours . other recycleable goods we collect for my very elderly father-in-law who can sell them on , nothing is wasted here .
    When we have had the builders in my father-in-law even straightens the bent nales to sell to those who cannot afford new .

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  • 88. At 01:56am on 29 Sep 2010, neonomad wrote:

    Apparently In Denmark first they were accused of criminality and them deported using an administrative procedure by the Police, all done without being brought to a court of law or having the possibility of defending themselves individually from the accusations. Shameful at so many levels.

    http://politiken.dk/newsinenglish/article1033647.ece
    http://politiken.dk/newsinenglish/article1030464.ece
    http://politiken.dk/newsinenglish/article1011653.ece
    http://jp.dk/uknews/article2143126.ece
    http://cphpost.dk/news/137-eu-news/49638-expelled-romani-to-sue-state-.html

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  • 89. At 03:41am on 30 Sep 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    By chance heard an interview with two Russian Gypsy, on the radio.
    Echo of Moscow' radio station were asking them what's the problem in France and how are gypsy-related issues in Russia.

    There were two people interviewed; a woman, deputy head of "Federal-Cultural Gypsy Autonomy of Russia". And a man, Commissar on Gypsy Holocaust, of the World Gypsy Association.

    Radio folks were asking them many things, including "Why don't you, folks, integrate in any country you are in?"
    "Why don't you speak well local languages of countries where you live in?"
    "What's that now famous, thanks to the media, problem in France?"

    Direct answers I haven't heard; it was something in the style "In order to keep the language, in order to keep the culture of a minority, in order to preserve the nation - yes, we don't integrate."

    The lady said cross-marriages are very no-no in gypsy culture, because, say, if any spouse will be Russian - it's clear that the child will speak the prevalent local Russian tongue or will be bi-linguial, at best.
    But most likely, Russian language will win as an easier option (one parent plus the whole Russian surrounding), so the child won't speak gypsy tongues as well as real native tongue.

    That the gypsy culture rule worldwide is to speak the local tongue enough to communicate - but not as first and native.

    And that this is strategic:o), because Gypsy culture has survived through centuries based on spoken things, the language, the songs, it is not a bookish culture - no books.

    The interviewed gypsies said there isn't a single school in Russia teaching in Roma/gypsy language, and that they've never seen a single printed book in Gypsy language. Which is really a shame.

    That there used to be only one Gypsy cultural centre in Russia, kind of their own "embassy" for problems-solving and jobs' finding, and an art school for gypsy children, and a rehab centre for "culturally wounded Gypsy" :o), and a sports' centre as sport is highly thought of among Russian Gypsy parents, and the Centre even had an Orthodox Gypsy Church (as Rus gypsy are Orthodox) - all this thrived on donations of rich Russian Gypsy eager to preserve the culture and provide help for co -? eh? - nationals - but that recently their lease was stopped and they were all thrown out, figuratively speaking, chairs and computers and gym and church and sponsors and own? kind of Gypsy Guru-s Committee (sorting disputes as an authority) - anyway all this is gone.

    Their lease was not prolonged and that's it.
    And they think it's because of nationality exactly. They found money wanted to buy off the whole huge place - and were turned down.

    Romanian Gypsy they said ran to France because of 2 things - persecution at home (they said that nationalism is on the rise in Europe everywhere), and because of crisis after-effects, bad with jobs in Romania.

    They said in Russia there live 1 million of Gypsy, out of 12 million there are worldwide total.

    They said Russian government does nil in terms to help Gypsy to survive and learn local languages and get help when unemployed, there are none special education or familiarisation orogrammes run for Gypsy in particular.

    Unlike elsewhere in Europe where local governments arrange many useful things.

    They said Russia neglected her Gypsy absolutely throughout her whole history :o), even that Gypsy live in Russia these 500 years exactly (an anniversary :o)
    Unlike other minoriities, about who Kremlin or Winter Palace (St Petersburg) were always taking special decrees or laws. Gypsy were and are as non-existant :o)/ Not singled out in any way.

    They said the only state decree or law in 500 years in Russia, mentioning the very word "gypsy" :o), was taken in 1956, and that was brief "Gypsy are forbidden to roam but have to live permanently where they happen to be when the law is taken."
    They said that though very nasty - the only "Gypsy law" has had a very positive effect on Gypsy culture and nation survival, and is thought of by Gypsy folks as a positive step (in reflection :o).
    Because by that law the state built them homes, took children to schools by law not asking the parents whether they fancy it or not :o), by that draconian measure Gypsy folk had to settle down and managed to gain some "fat" (property and money, with years, living in one place permanently.

    That's why now they said 80% of Russian Gypsy are impossible to be told from any other Russians, and only 20% live a life associated with "gypsy" style :o) by other folks.

    That is they live compact and permanent here and there, but by whole homogeneous gypsy villages, without gas, water, electricity, the houses are warmed up by cut-wood stoves and water is from a river or a well or some springs, and local buses don't even stop :o) on their route by such Gypsy places, "as all know Gypsy live there."

    Those children rarely bother to go to local Russian schools (esp given even a bus wouldn't stop nearby :o); girls get married at 15-17 awful early, and that's it that's how their life goes on.

    That 800,000 Gypsy now live in bigger cities and keep strictly Gypsy families, but are employed and, like, lead ordinary life. Impossible to tell if they are Gypsy or not.

    Well they said many interesting thigs ab the ways and habits and the culture, and their problems and aspirations, and all.

    I think may be it will also help if Gavin finds a Gypsy in France to interview or something, or in Romania, or whenever.

    By the looks of what that Comissar said - Gypst expulsions will be a pandemia soon in the EU :o), even very Gypsy-tolerant historically Finland is planning to follow France's example, and who only not. They've got alarms calling in their world co-ordination centre from everywhere.

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  • 90. At 7:07pm on 01 Oct 2010, neonomad wrote:

    A question to the panel.????

    Lets suppose some Roma EU citizens are accused of some crime in Denmark.
    Lets then suppose that because they have been accused of a crime the Danish Police uses an administrative procedure to deport them from Denmark.
    lets also assume that they were not brought before a court of law or convicted of any crime under Danish law and not given the possibility to defend themselves against the accusations before a judge. Just accused, applied the administrative procedure and deported.
    Lets then assume that the Danish Police carries out the deportations and puts the Roma EU citizens inside buses. I would like to remind at this point that they are not convicted of any crime, nor they were given the possibility to defend themselves against the accusations.
    So the Danish Police drive the Roma EU citizens all the way from Copenhagen across Denmark on their way to Romania or Bulgaria....does not matter.
    The bus with the Danish Police inside controlling the deportations of Roma EU citizens crosses the Danish border and enters Germany....
    The Roma EU citizens free from any conviction of any crime in Denmark or any where in the EU, kept inside a bus guarded by the Danish Police in German territory, decide they want to leave the bus.... The Danish Police keeps them inside the bus using force to carry out the deportation all the way to Romania....or Bulgaria. does not matter.
    If they are free Roma EU citizens kept against their will inside a bus by the Danish Police in Germany, Is that not kidnapping?????
    And if it is kidnapping and kidnapping is a crime in Germany, shouldn't the German Police free the hostages and arrest the kidnappers....????
    After all they are free Roma EU citizens not convicted of any crime, nor wanted for any crime any were in the EU, kept inside a bus against their will, by the authorities of another country...????
    Does it not mean that the authorities of one country have the duty to act inside their country against the authorities of another country that are keeping free citizens in their power against their will, using force.?????

    This of course is all hypothetical???

    http://politiken.dk/newsinenglish/article1033647.ece
    http://politiken.dk/newsinenglish/article1030464.ece
    http://politiken.dk/newsinenglish/article1011653.ece
    http://jp.dk/uknews/article2143126.ece
    http://cphpost.dk/news/137-eu-news/49638-expelled-romani-to-sue-state-.html

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