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The Roma repatriation

Gavin Hewitt | 12:00 UK time, Thursday, 19 August 2010

It is a desperate way to survive. In many European cities you can find women begging for money. Many of them are Roma. They squat on the Champs Elysees. They stand by the Brandenburg gate in Berlin or in the square at Alexanderplatz. Many carry children and some have cards asking for money. They sit on the stairs leading out of the metro station at Avenue Louise in Brussels. They crowd around the entrances to the Gare du Nord in Paris.
roma.jpg

There is evidence that much of the begging is organised and controlled by men. The women are expected to bring in at least 50 euros a day. Some, like outside the Gare Du Nord, operate in groups of up to 15. The police believed that invalids and children, who are used to gain sympathy, are shared out between the groups.

It is the view of the French president that begging is part of a wider deeper problem involving some of the Roma. He believes that illegal Roma camps on the edge of French cities are a linked to serious crime. The Elysee Palace explained that the Roma camps were "sources of illegal trafficking, profoundly shocking living standards, the exploitation of children for begging, prostitution and crime."

Other countries have recently taken action against Roma groups. Demark has expelled some of them, so has Sweden. Germany has paid some to return to Bulgaria or Romania, where most of them originate from.

But it is the action taken in France that has caused most controversy. President Sarkozy has ordered the police to break up 300 illegal Roma camps, and there are plans - starting today - to deport 700 of them. The President also wants those of "foreign origin" who attempt to kill police or other officials to be stripped of their French nationality.

These moves were prompted by an incident in Grenoble. Shots were fired at police after a young man of North African origin was killed by police while trying to rob a casino. In a separate incident, Gypsies rioted after one of them was shot dead failing to stop at a checkpoint.

Mr Sarkozy's view is that "French nationality must be merited, and one must be able to show themselves worthy."

The Roma have a history of being persecuted. Many were killed by the Nazis. For centuries they have lived nomadically. There are thousands of Roma who are French citizens and have lived peacefully and lawfully in France for years. Many have full-time jobs and never beg. However, when Romania and Bulgaria joined the EU in 2007 the people gained the right to travel and to live in other European countries. Many Roma groups took advantage of that and there are estimated to be 15,000 of them in France. The French insist they have to apply for a work permit or they have to leave after three months.

Some have accused the French president of pandering to the far-right, of stigmatising a vulnerable group. One MP from the president's own party called the round-up "disgraceful" and compared it with what the Nazis did. However, the measures appear to be popular with the public and the president has seen his poll ratings edge up.

The secretary-general of Mr Sarkozy's party, Xavier Bertrand, said the actions were "a slap in the face" for the politically correct.

"As usual, 'Sarkozyism' is out of step with the elites but in step with society," said Interior Minister Brice Hortefeux.

Some of the Roma were leaving today. Those who went voluntarily have been given 300 euros and an airline ticket.

The EU guarantees "freedom of movement" but the legislation "expressly allows for restrictions on the right to move freely for reasons of public order, public security and public health".

The crackdowns are unlikely to be successful in the long-term. In their own countries many Roma cannot find work, and sooner or later they will return to Europe's wealthiest cities.

Years ago, the one-time dissident and Czech President Vaclav Havel said that the Gypsy problem was "a litmus test not of democracy, but of civil society". The challenge now is not just to countries like Hungary or the Czech Republic, but also to much of Europe.

Comments

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  • 1. At 12:59pm on 19 Aug 2010, AlanLeon wrote:

    I certainly agree that Gypsies should not be persecuted, but nor should they persecute other people. Furthermore, they chose the name "Gypsies" themselves in the sixteenth century, so there's no need to call them "Roma". Now let's see how fast this comment gets deleted for the unacceptable crime of factual accuracy.

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  • 2. At 1:12pm on 19 Aug 2010, britboy10 wrote:

    I suppose one "solution" would be the introduction of a cashless society. Think - walking around London with only an Oyster card and credit card in your pocket.

    But, then again, the cards might then be changed to read: "We accept Visa and Paypal" ...

    #1 AlanLeon

    I could be wrong, but I suspect the inclusion of the word "Roma" is to specify the subject group of this article as the pan-European ethnic group, as opposed to Irish Gypsies/Travellers and UK-citizen Travellers who generally don't like the term "Gypsy" as it is often used negatively.

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  • 3. At 1:57pm on 19 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    The French Presidents fears regarding the Roma are fully justified .

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  • 4. At 2:20pm on 19 Aug 2010, Toby Goodall wrote:

    The stereotype of Roma Gypsies is of thieves and unemployable beggars who burden themselves upon any European nation they choose. Sadly, this appears to be very accurate.

    As for the French, they are only doing that which the rest of us would very much like to do. (as usual) I only wish our representatives would show as much back bone and act in our best interests for a change, instead of going to great lengths and expense (ours) to keep them here in the UK.

    Less of the "touchy-feely" more of the "Iron fist in the velvet glove".

    Go the French !!!

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  • 5. At 3:28pm on 19 Aug 2010, Anti_bigot wrote:

    In the artical "France begins deporting Roma Gypsies" of 19/08/2010 it mentions.

    "The Roma are EU citizens, mostly from Romanian or Bulgaria, but French law requires any European visitor intending to stay longer than three months to have a work permit."

    This is blatantly wrong and misleading. Perhaps the author was in a hurry to meet a deadline and failed to do some rudimentary research?

    Only Nationals of the two most recent accession States, Romania and Bulgaria, are required to register for work permits in certain occupational fields in France, and this applies only to dependent employees; not self-employed for example. Moreover, this is a transitional restriction that France and all other EU States are authorised to implement. This transitional period for the other New Member Sates who joined in 2004 was rescinded by France recently. Other EU citizens DO NOT need to obtain a work permit to stay in France beyond three months. In addition to this, the 'old' requirement to register for a resident permit was recently abolished under Directive 2004/38/EC across the EU, in fact, it came into force across the Union 1/07/2006.

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  • 6. At 3:42pm on 19 Aug 2010, gjm wrote:

    Anti bigot should also have mentioned the automatic right of EU citizens to remain in another EU country only lasts 3 months.

    After this initial period you must be a "qualified person" which usually entails showing you can support yourself and that you will not be a burden on the receiving state.

    Theoretically the French can remove those who are deemed to be a burden on the state and can also remove those who are a threat to public policy/health/security.

    I believe it is this route the French have gone down.

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  • 7. At 3:47pm on 19 Aug 2010, USTraveler wrote:

    As a US traveler I resent having to go to great lengths to not look like a tourist. We visit France at least once a year and we have to take a lot of black clothing, black leather jackets, shoes, etc. We're seniors and that is not our normal dress.
    We speak French well and know French customs well. I have even been asked if I am Belgian or from Quebec. Yet the Romas still harass us, especially when relatives or friends accompany us. I've even had my passport stolen despite my knowledge of how they operate and we've been traveling to Europe for over 20 yrs.
    As I see it, and I may be wrong, but the Roma who participate in these activities are plentiful and a menace to everyone, including the Roma that are honest and hardworking.
    Mr. Sarkozy's policy is harsh and not even-handed. Rather than criticize, why not offer alternatives? This is a problem that has been festering for many years.
    For one, I feel that the French should just concentrate on the Roma that are begging, soliciting sex, etc. Immediate deportation. Or would that force that ilk into some other illicit activitiies?

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  • 8. At 5:03pm on 19 Aug 2010, jack sparrow wrote:

    The French Presidents fears regarding the Roma are fully justified, what service do they provide, do they pay taxes, maybe if the rest of us were to go on the road to avoid out civic duties our spineless politicians would have second thoughts.

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  • 9. At 5:24pm on 19 Aug 2010, olivier morteau wrote:

    Go the French? Really! I am French and thanks to Sarkozy I am now ashamed to be French.

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  • 10. At 5:33pm on 19 Aug 2010, mike wrote:

    Good for the French, only wish our goverment had some backbone and would expell all from abroad who do not work full time.

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  • 11. At 5:41pm on 19 Aug 2010, Pip of London wrote:

    #1 AlanLeon - yes, the reporter has used 'Roma' because that refers specifically to Central/ Eastern European groups. English groups call themselves 'Romany' or 'Romani', and Welsh groups 'Kale'. Then there's Sinti ...

    Factual accuracy. He's just being specific about which group he's talking about.

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  • 12. At 6:12pm on 19 Aug 2010, speakup wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 13. At 6:14pm on 19 Aug 2010, romboy wrote:

    I've been living in Romania for the past 5 years and the Roma/Gypsies are a problem here. They are responsible for a lot of the petty crimes against tourists, are found begging outside churches and on street corners. They can be quite threatening especially for women and, unfortunately the local police seem to do very little.
    Most of them are unable/don't want to work and have loads of kids to get more money off the state - perpetuating a vicious circle.
    Keep them in France - don't send them back - more than enough already.

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  • 14. At 6:15pm on 19 Aug 2010, PJohnston wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 15. At 6:52pm on 19 Aug 2010, Menedemus wrote:

    invictager @#6

    That is entirely correct.

    Anti_bigot was entirely misreading Gavin's Blog Article to then speak the usual bourgeois gobbleddgook that is used to 'protect' society from the excesses or abuse of power by the Majority but, as is always is the case, the French will have a reasonable excuse to apply the law in an equitable fashion that suits the French DESPITE the wishes of the Roma, the conscientious pro-immigration sympathisers or the EU in each and every case where EU rules do not quite fit with what is viewed by the French as being good for France.

    It is a shame that such nationalistic and self-centered tendencies are not equally shared by the United Kingdom - or at least implemented as I am sure the egotisitical and self-centered tendencies are equally shared between the French and the British ... alas the French have always done what they see as best for them whereas the British simply accept 'immigration of useless mouths' as a faite accompli, suck it up and smile.

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  • 16. At 6:56pm on 19 Aug 2010, dawei wrote:

    PIP OF LONDON: you are splitting hairs. See the Oxford Dictionary definition:
    "Rom
    noun (plural Roma /ˈrɒmə/)
    1 a Gypsy, especially a man or boy
    2 (as plural noun Roma) Gypsy people collectively"
    It doesn't say anything about "Roma" referring specifically to one group or another.
    PJOHNSTON: you mistake the Roma with Romanians. A lot of ethnic Romanians who have arrived in the UK over the past several years are there to work hard. They should not be mistaken with the Roma, who might be Romanian citizens, but are not ethnic Romanians.

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  • 17. At 7:00pm on 19 Aug 2010, Mark_MWFC wrote:

    The majority of Roma do have jobs and do work hard, don't cause trouble and get involved with crime. Unfortunately there is a segment of their society that does...

    ...just like every other society or are there no French beggars and thieves in France or British ones in the UK?

    I have no issue with crackdowns on elements of society that are there simply to cause disruption and misery for others but let's keep this in perspective.

    That said, anyone who doesn't think that the TGBs (the bad element of Roma society) aren't a problem is delusional too.

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  • 18. At 7:13pm on 19 Aug 2010, xxxaaaxxx wrote:


    There should be a law against begging then when someone breaks the law deport them. I agree with the policy of the French govt here. It is not the settled people who have a job that are being sent home. Their is a problem in many European capitals and towns that needs to be addressed. Rome was even worse then Paris this year when I was there. I couldn't even buy a train ticket in one station in Rome, the begging women were standing in front of the ticket machine, you were not allowing anyone to get near the machines unless you paid them. The police didn't even seem to notice or care.

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  • 19. At 7:21pm on 19 Aug 2010, ClaphamBusman wrote:

    I've been working in Romania for 16 years and one of the questions that I get asked most often is "What do the English think of Romania?". The answer, regretably, is "Romania=Roma" - a viewpoint which is grossly insulting to the millions of Romanians who are decent law-abiding citizens trying to do their best in extremely difficult circumstances.
    When a qualified, experienced teacher can earn much more washing cars in London than educating the next generation here, is it any wonder that those who have the opportunity will want to move west?

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  • 20. At 7:23pm on 19 Aug 2010, democracythreat wrote:

    I am not a religious man by any stretch, but it occurs to me now, as I read this blog, that if the christian lord, the embodiment of all the hopes and noble aspirations of the european people, were to come and test his creations character and spirit, he might well choose to do so by adopting the guise of a poor man begging for alms.

    Or, being the lord and prone to extravagance in the way of miracles, perhaps the divine spirit might manifest itself as an entire people, a culture apart from the orthodox majority, lacking the formal legitimacy of a farmers title, such as graced Cain. Perhaps the christian lord might come in the way of an entire people, and those people might beg and rely upon the kindness and mercy of the christian folk who share their lands.

    And if so, I wonder how such a lord might judge his children, and how he might reflect upon their treatment of each other, and their fondness for mercy and compassion, and whether they have discarded them entirely, and what the consequences must therefore be for their own children.

    The truth is that Cain and Able have been slaying each other in Europe since tribes began farming wheat is the early neolithic. Mostly, according to modern scientific understanding, it has been the nomadic Able who has been cut down with rocks and worse, in keeping with the fables of scripture, themselves being a history of sorts.

    Calling the legitimacy of the Roma culture into question because it does not conform to modern conceptions of property rights is an act of extreme political violence, and we are forced to choose between laws.

    Either we side with human rights, or we side with property.

    We have been making that choice since slavery was the height of human political achievement. I would counsel to choose with care.

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  • 21. At 7:35pm on 19 Aug 2010, MaxSceptic wrote:

    So far as I am concerned, what the French do is their business.

    (And I'd like Britain to have the freedom to act in our own interests without other countries sticking their nose into our business).

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  • 22. At 7:53pm on 19 Aug 2010, iDanoyl wrote:

    About the expelled Roma.
    We French are actually on holidays all around the world and are appalled to hear such news back from Paris! The small man has gone way beyond any moral convenience or any political correctness! Aren't these people Europeans in Europe? Exacerbating xenophobia against muslims and now Gypsies is the man's only action. Alas.

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  • 23. At 8:09pm on 19 Aug 2010, Paul J Weighell wrote:

    With the best will in the world one cannot argue that the Roma, Gypsies or Travellers as a group have played a significant part in the creation of the infrastructure and institutions that they now wish to benefit from, either if France or the UK for that matter.

    Even tax paying migrants still take unfair advantage of existing capital infrastructure and institutions created by generations of longer-term native residents and although the UK government studiously avoids this fact it is that which is causing so much distress and forcing many UK people into anti-migrant views.

    Where work is less available, as in this case, migrants can only lower the average living standard of those already resident and take the place of longer-term residents, so one cannot blame any country for putting its own longer-term residents welfare before that of newcomers.

    Migrants who bring capital are always welcome as they add to wealth but those who bring nothing or work to export cash back to other countries, should be limited in number, as the French are sensibly seeking to do.

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  • 24. At 8:11pm on 19 Aug 2010, Benefactor wrote:

    @ 20 DT

    "I am not a religious man by any stretch, but it occurs to me now, as I read this blog, that if the christian lord, (snip) were to come and test his creations character and spirit, he might well choose to do so by adopting the guise of a poor man begging for alms.(snip)
    And if so, I wonder how such a lord might judge his children, and how he might reflect upon their treatment of each other, and their fondness for mercy and compassion, and whether they have discarded them entirely, and what the consequences must therefore be for their own children."

    And I suppose, God being god, would rob his creation, prostitute his children and murder people? Doesn't sound particularly heavenly.

    --

    "Calling the legitimacy of the Roma culture into question because it does not conform to modern conceptions of property rights is an act of extreme political violence, and we are forced to choose between laws."

    Actually, it gets called into question for being a bit rubbish. Most people would not care about the particular peculiarities or lack there of in there culture if, as a group, they did not tend to cause trouble wherever they turn up.

    -----

    Roma/Traveller culture by its essentially nomadic nature makes integration with the main populace very difficult.
    Those that do settle tend to end up in very poor Roma dominated areas, coupled with the (previously) self imposed exclusion from main society this is obviously going to cause problems.

    I'm not sure how to sort it really.

    N.B. France is well with there rights to expel them, the fact they make themselves a very visible group and create makeshift shanty towns wherever they go also makes it very easy for them to do this.
    If all bank robbers wore stripy tops and carried sacks around with swag written on them, a lot more bank robbers would be caught.
    They are committing a crime and making it easy to catch them. No brainer.



    (Large sections of this comment are by necessity generalisations, obviously not all Roma are as described.)

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  • 25. At 8:43pm on 19 Aug 2010, BluesBerry wrote:

    I read about Roma leaders who condemned intolerance against their community across Europe. Where did this occur? At the WWII Nazi German Auschwitz camp where the Roma People were marking 66 years since the massacre of nearly 3,000 Roma.
    Roman Kwiatkowski, Head of the Roma Association of Poland said: "Roma are still the victims of intolerance, even brutal aggression...To all those who say this, I answer clearly at this place: we are a single, great people, especially on this day, International Remembrance Day of Roma Victims of the Holocaust."
    The Roma People are deprived of human rights; they are discriminated against. They are persecuted; they are deported.
    Some 500 Roma from several countries gathered at the monument commemorating the death of nearly 3,000 women, children and elderly people, who were gassed by the Nazis at the Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp on the night of August 2-3, 1944. Nearly all of the 23,000 Roma and Sinti imprisoned at the "Zigeunerlager" at Auschwitz-Birkenau were killed by the Nazis between 1941-44.
    The Warsaw-based Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) said that it had brought these Roma together from several European countries...in memory of the dead.
    Well, some Roma are still alive. The Jews got Israel...have we no little space where the Roma can try to live in peace?

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  • 26. At 9:06pm on 19 Aug 2010, Pip of London wrote:

    #16 dawai: You're right, I'm splitting hairs - in reply to someone who thought the reporter should have used 'Gypsy' and wanted to know why he used 'Roma'. I'm splitting hairs in the same way that it's splitting hairs to refer to one person as French and someone else as Italian, when it's perfectly correct to call them both European.

    Anyway, the OED is an excellent institution, but fitting detailed information into three lines is fairly difficult. And words not used in English very often won't appear - try looking up 'Sinti' in the OED. Now try looking up Sinti on the Internet, or in a reasonably good textbook on the Gypsy people, or in a history of Nazi persecution.

    Given that a few people on here seem to be confusing Roma with 'Romanian' anyway, I suppose we should be grateful that the OED did manage to get the right ethnic group.

    What I'm not grateful for is the number of people on this board who are happily putting forward the idea of Roma as 'bunch of workshy thieves and beggars'. If you do the research, you'll find that most of the Roma in the UK, at least, are trying to make a living out of the kind of badly paid casual labour (in lousy working conditions) that most Brits wouldn't touch with a bargepole.

    The Roma criminal and begging gangs are very visible; but as a few people have already said - they're a minority. Just a very visible one.

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  • 27. At 9:41pm on 19 Aug 2010, Derska wrote:

    It's time Western Europe faced the problem we face in Eastern Europe EVERY day. Begging, prostitution, baby-selling, robberies, train racks and electric wire theft-this is what all Bulgarians have to deal with on a day to day basis. France has the right to deal with her problems and expulse criminals and we can't ? I am so fed up with European officials coming to Bulgaria only to say we need to integrate a SELF-SEGREGATED group that refuses to have anything to do with normal society: schooling, work, paying taxes are not even a part of their vocabulary. It's cleart noone in Europe wants to have a Gypsy population leeching off welfare and killing people for pennies. Should we just send them back to India? I bet Indians have enough problems already.We as Europeans need to find a COMMON long-term solution, not kick them back and forth like a football. They are humans too-humans in dire need of education and a purpose. Until this is realized everywhere, nothing will change. And most importantly, until the very Gypsies realize they are creating a HUGE problem with their criminal lifestyle, no European country or institution will help them.
    And...please don't turn Bulgaria and Romania into a Gypsy concentration camp! If you think you are smarter than us, maybe you should keep them in France and show us how proper "integration" is done. We've almost given up after 700 years of trying. They are as much "ours" as "yours". They are not European.

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  • 28. At 9:57pm on 19 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 29. At 10:09pm on 19 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #28 What ?????

    Further consideration -- for British prejudice ???


    http://www.grtleeds.co.uk/Accommodation/index.html

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  • 30. At 10:10pm on 19 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    http://www.grtleeds.co.uk/Accommodation/index.html

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  • 31. At 10:21pm on 19 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 32. At 11:17pm on 19 Aug 2010, Macca wrote:

    Facts about Roma (yes it is Wiki but reasonably well sourced) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people

    Now then...

    Is France doing this because they have a government driven policy of persecution against Roma specifically OR are they deporting citizens of Romania and Bulgaria that are living their illegally...that happen to be Roma...? The news sensationalizes the first case but doesn't really provide real fact to back up their claims...

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  • 33. At 00:32am on 20 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    The Roma have been made the outcasts of Europe. They are a self fulfilling prophesy, their antisocial behavior the result of being cut off by discrimination, by the European culture of exclusion, the proof that detesting them, fearing them, isolating them is justified. Jews were once treated the same way in Europe and in some places probably still are. Americans have evolved past this, Europeans haven't and I doubt they ever will.

    http://www.errc.org/en-news-and-events-errc-in-the-news.php

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  • 34. At 05:15am on 20 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #7 USTraveler

    " Or would that force the ilk into some other illicit activities "?

    You mean like Pickpocketing , Cat Burglery , Motorcycle Handbag Snatching , Holding up late city diners at knife point and demanding all their jewellery and money . YES .

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  • 35. At 05:47am on 20 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #20 democracythreat

    Whose human rights ? That of law abiding citizens , or that of thieves and human parasites , all and sundry . Cities like Rome , Florence , you name them , all over Europe are subjected to every type of criminality . Your home isn't safe even when you are at home , or asleep at night . You hardly dare look in a shop window , for fear your wallet will be taken , a woman walking down a street may have her handbag snatched by a passing motorcyclist , pulling her over in the road .

    Taking the Moral Christian high ground is not justifed as Human Rights , in this case . Biblical and Christian civilization is built upon the ten commandments . You cannot have civil community life if a section of the population contravenes all the rules . Those who conform , have a right to bring the transgressors into line , or drive them out .
    Jesus didn't allow people to do just what they liked .

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  • 36. At 06:07am on 20 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 37. At 06:27am on 20 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #33 MarcusAuraliusII

    America is a big country with a lot of open space . Americans are full of human kindness ; perhaps America could offer a permanent safe haven to the Roma .

    I suspect that the Roma would very soon gravitate to the suburbs of cities like New York , Boston , Washington , Chicago , los Angeles , San Francisco , you name it ; they would be as much of a problem and danger as they are in European cities .

    When civilised society is severely threatened , citizens have a right to defend themselves , remove people who are threatening civil life and safety .

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  • 38. At 06:28am on 20 Aug 2010, gjm wrote:

    The action taken by France is virtually meaningless as under EU law nearly every person removed with their 300 Euro "bribe" can simply return to France when they feel like doing so.

    The real problem is the EU itself which has been expanded at the whim of a political elite to include countries that were clearly not qualified to make any meaningful contribution.

    Despite the constant propaganda extolling the benefits of the bloc it remains an organisation whose existence relies on the benevolence of the minority of members states who actually make a net contribution.

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  • 39. At 06:41am on 20 Aug 2010, Mechat wrote:

    Two issues that are rarely considered:
    1) Rom leaders are rarely consulted and included in the discussions at a higher level. They should be considered as spokespersons and responsibility given them so they can work on policies too, esp at the EU level.
    2) For many Rom, begging is one of the 3 or 4 main professions they traditionally have developed over centuries, so it is normal to work optimally, sharing resources such as children and women. These survival techniques have allowed them to exist. Other professions like trading, music and fortune-telling are used successfully by these people who have also survived by travelling from place to place since they had to emigrate from Pakistan so many centuries ago. Time to to stop and reflect WITH them, to adapt education TO their situation, and quit forcing our very different views of who they are, onto them.

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  • 40. At 06:52am on 20 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Humakemesick;

    We do have Roma living in American just as we have people from every other nation and culture. I do not know of any special concern about any increased incidence of crime or any other problem that distinguishes them from any other ethnic group including minorities. When they obey our laws they are left alone to live their lives as they see fit. When they break them the are aprehended and prosecuted just like everyone else. They seem entirely harmless here to me and I don't see any indication that any significant minority of them has a peculiar attraction to enter a life of crime or join terrorist organizations. They are just one more thread in our social fabric. I haven't researched it but I'm also not aware of any special discrimination against them here either.

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  • 41. At 07:42am on 20 Aug 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @33 MarcusAureliusII
    "The Roma have been made the outcasts of Europe. They are a self fulfilling prophesy, their antisocial behavior the result of being cut off by discrimination, by the European culture of exclusion, the proof that detesting them, fearing them, isolating them is justified. Jews were once treated the same way in Europe and in some places probably still are. Americans have evolved past this, Europeans haven't and I doubt they ever will."
    100% correct. France is going to repatriate to Bulgaria 120 Roma people by airway, mostly from the region of Marseille. The first "lot" of 41 romas arrives by the end of the week.
    They integrate badly with us, the orthodox. They prefer the Muslim people.
    I mail you here enclosed a souvenir from me. I like jazz. Our famous jazzman Milcho Leviev is still living in the US and comes here once a year to take part in our jazz festivals.
    Regards from Sofia

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqHU-S00uOA

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  • 42. At 08:58am on 20 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    DemocThreat

    Re #20

    Though You couldn't quite hold Yourself in check on the grandiose 'christian' pronouncements You did IMO to a very large extent take the proper high ground on moral principle.

    For whatever reasons, the 'Roma' are amongst us and though they are seen to create many difficulties those should not be compounded by a society as materially & culturally wealthy as experienced/lived by the great majority of British Isles & Continental EUrope.
    For those under any misapprehension the 'Roma' (& I do not mean Finland's historic, indigenous & actual true 'roma' social minority) from East Europe also can be seen in the main cities of Finland typically involved with begging bowls, thieving & prostitution - - with the women & children undoubtedly closely controlled by groups of extremely unpleasant males - - surely a 'criminal' element that are subject to Laws already in-place across the whole of Europe.

    For EUropean Nations to stygmatise their (Roma) whole societal-grouping because of these anti-social elements is exceedingly unjust and a scandal in 2010.

    In essence DemocThreat, Your final 3 sentences say it all very succinctly and are entirely ethically accurate:

    "..Either we side with Human Rights or we side with property.
    We have been making that choice since slavery was the height of human political achievement. I would counsel to choose with care."

    I concur and applaud Your sentiment.

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  • 43. At 09:05am on 20 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 44. At 09:21am on 20 Aug 2010, Benefactor wrote:

    Marcus, I love how any and every action is seemingly justification for your hatred of Europe.

    Prosecute the Roma for crimes and deport them for being here illegally and we are persecuting a minority.

    Leave them alone and let them get on with it and we are being weak (or is that not the case this time, what with the Roma not being muslims and all.)


    It's not about persecuting Roma, these camps are both illegal and make it very easy to catch them.

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  • 45. At 09:42am on 20 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #28, #29, #30 & #31

    As with so many of Your comments no one on this Blog has any idea what You are writing about with regard to this article there is nothing to add to the yawning silence!

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  • 46. At 10:00am on 20 Aug 2010, I am the Editor wrote:

    Mr Sarkozy's view is that "French nationality must be merited, and one must be able to show themselves worthy."

    One must show themselves? I'm sure Sarkozy doesn't speak the Queen's English, but it can't be as bad as this! Or were you in the US for too long, Gavin?

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  • 47. At 10:22am on 20 Aug 2010, stanilic wrote:

    I have to declare an interest in this as I have a great-grandmother of Romany stock. She was a very good business-woman who made two small fortunes in her lifetime.

    It is difficult to associate that person with these others. This suggests that something fatal has happened to the Roma culture in Eastern Europe which has put them at odds with the majority population.

    The idea of overt begging is anathema to the gypsy despite their marginal existence. Always they would seek to offer something, even it might be just a piece of white heather or some other symbol of a blessing, in response to the generosity of others.

    The culture that a marginal existence produces is a hard working, resourceful and tough mentality. This is so far removed from begging that one is left wondering what on earth is going on.

    Criminality is usually the last resort of the desparate compounded by the cynical and evil nature that evolves from such corrupt behaviour. The role of the wider community is to disrupt the criminal gangs as they represent arbitrary power thus reducing their dominion. Then we might get some straight answers to the perfectly reasonable question: just what lies behind all this?

    Lastly, I recall a remark of an old police sergeant to me some forty or more years ago. He advised me that if you don't move on the first beggar then he multiplies very quickly. So why didn't the French authorities move them on earlier?

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  • 48. At 10:40am on 20 Aug 2010, I am the Editor wrote:


    For many Rom, begging is one of the 3 or 4 main professions they traditionally have developed over centuries.... These survival techniques have allowed them to exist.

    This is, almost by definition, a description of parasitic behaviour. Most of us feel that parasites, whether diseases on our body or in our society, are not a good thing.

    Time to to stop and reflect WITH them, to adapt education TO their situation

    Sorry, but I am not going to reflect with or adapt to parasites.

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  • 49. At 10:59am on 20 Aug 2010, Anti_bigot wrote:

    The responses to my post 1. At 3:42pm on 19 Aug 2010, invictager and 2. At 6:52pm on 19 Aug 2010, Menedemus re: the inaccurate assertion that EU citizens need work permits to remain in France beyond three months were quite clearly knee-jerk reactions as they failed to note the core argument.

    1. The post was concerned with what is mentioned above, i.e. the BBC article mentioned "French law requires any European visitor intending to stay longer than three months to have a work permit." which is wrong. Agreed? No?; please consult references to this in the Treaty before responding.
    2. I didn't argue against the proviso in the Treaties to allow States to remove persons on the grounds of Public order or State security et al, although such measures are extreme with the onus on the State to prove such measures are proportionate.
    3. While one of the provisos is indeed the requirement for an EU citizen not to become an 'unreasonable' burden on the State, the key word here is "unreasonable". And, as such is NOT an automatic right of the State to use it disproportionately. For example, where an EU citizen is looking for work and has a reasonable chance of getting it, or where such a person is entitled to contributions based benefits (not public funds), or has been settled for a long period already. In fact under DIR 2004/38/EC, more than 5 years' continuous residency entitles an EU citizen to automatic permanent residency. The provisos above do not apply to such persons.

    What makes this saga stand out however is that under point 3 above, expulsions of this nature are extremely rare in any EU member Sate even in France. As a result, many people can be forgiven for observing that the whole exercise reeks of disproportionate racial profiling, and populist and political scoring by the French Presidency.

    Indeed, one poster one here points out that the beggars we see in the street in many of our Capitals across Europe are not only Roma. Another believes that the approach of the French, while being very populist, is perhaps the wrong approach to the problem. I.e., discriminate expulsion, with probable sticky legal ramifications. Such actions will inevitably back fire. There's nothing stopping such persons from regrouping later and returning.

    This was a known issue and potential flare spot from the outset when those States became accession States to the EU way back. Why wasn't something done to pre-empt and improve the situation before those States acceded to the EU? I don't recall France objecting to Romania and Bulgaria acceding to the EU?

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  • 50. At 11:41am on 20 Aug 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @21 MaxSceptic
    You are right of course as far as GH seeks to launch issues that somehow do not concern (at first glance) old Britain. It is not for the first time...
    However that is not an argument for me to avoid whatever comment on the Roma problem in my country. No country in the EU is able to prevent the free move of the Roma people.
    The integration here is under way, though at a very slow speed. The number of the expelled Bulgarian ROMA from France is relatively insignificant – less than 200. The mere fact that such expatriation is necessary means that we did not yet integrate the Roma people here.
    True, they are more close to our culture than the new immigrants here of Muslim origin /Palestinians, Iranians, Iraqis, etc. /. However, it is significant, that they prefer the Muslim religion to ours, the Orthodox faith, which may in the future result in a natural rapprochement with our Muslims (less than 10% of the total population). That will be a challenge to the political system here. For the time being, they prefer living in closed suburbs, at the outskirts of the big cities /you will never spot a Roma in the agricultural countryside/, with their internal rules of coexistence, subordination, guards, etc. The young girls marry at the age of 16, even less… most of them being illiterate.
    Regards

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  • 51. At 11:59am on 20 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Malefactor;

    "Marcus, I love how any and every action is seemingly justification for your hatred of Europe."

    Yes, the Europeans do give cause for it. If I ever saw signs of positive change I might hold out hope that Europe will one day evolve and become civilized but I doubt it. Europia sees itself as Eutopia and finds no reason to change. The difference between Europe and the dinosaur is that the dinosaurs didn't have a developed brain large enough or the means to change to survive. Europe on the other hand.....hmmm.

    "Prosecute the Roma for crimes and deport them for being here illegally and we are persecuting a minority."

    As I understand the EU, they are allowed to live in France legally because they are EU citizens. The governments of France and Bulgaria are conspiring to deny them of their legal rights. Where is a civil liberties or civil rights organization to bring suit in the European Court to present their side of the case?

    "Leave them alone and let them get on with it and we are being weak (or is that not the case this time, what with the Roma not being muslims and all.)"

    Justification for bigotry and hatred. America is finally integrating a much larger population of minorities whose were brought here against their will and have lived among the rest of the population for far fewer centuries than the Roma have lived in Europe. That no progress towards integration of the Roma into the larger society has been made, that there is no indication that progress will be made, that there is no indication that the rest of Europe understands progress needs to be made is proof Europe is an inferior civilization. It remains ignorant and backwards because it wants to stay that way.

    "It's not about persecuting Roma, these camps are both illegal and make it very easy to catch them."

    In a civilized society, vagrancy is not justification for deportation especially when the people being deported are citizens of the EU. Where is your high minded international law now or do the rules only apply when you Europeans want them to in order to justify your prejudices? Yes that's it. So you will deprot them from camps in France to what, camps in Bulgaria? And then what, build a wall around it so they don't get out and come back to France again? Sounds familiar.

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  • 52. At 12:46pm on 20 Aug 2010, Benefactor wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 53. At 12:47pm on 20 Aug 2010, Fariba Swinscoe wrote:

    The Rroma are persecuted throughout Europe and the dispicable actions of the French government inflame this in scenes reminiscent of the deportations during the war. Nicholas Sarkozy's policies are those of fear and intimidation that deceive and manipulate; continually discracing the noble traditions of French republic. This administration exploits xenophobia and has turned it's malevolant attention to the most marginalised in society- from whom it has little to fear at the ballot-box as large swathes of French Rroma are disinfranchised. Discrimination, poverty and ignornance are at the heart of the real problems suffered by the Rroma. Talk of 'intergration' from governments is truly terrifying showing a hatred of the Rroma and their culture which can only be combated by mutual education and the application of anti-racisim laws. Civilisation demands not the inclusion of the Rroma as 'assimilated' citizens; but acceptance of them as a people with their own culture and way of life that is as deserving of respect as any other.

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  • 54. At 12:54pm on 20 Aug 2010, Andrew Taggart wrote:

    Franch is a democracy. Democracy is, and should be, about rule by the majority. Every other system is rule by a minority and is ruibbish.

    If a democracy insists that people live in a particular way and refrain from certain activities, then those that set up home (or camp) in that country should live by those laws attempt to get them changed (lawfully) or leave.

    If criminal behaviour is always justified as a disease, misunderstood or caused by oppression, then the opposite is surely true, and nobody's accomplishments are worthy of respect, praise or encouragement.

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  • 55. At 1:00pm on 20 Aug 2010, Atomic_Mash wrote:

    Sending the Roma back to Bulgaria and Romania is just one more example of European bigotry and racism. Why doesn't the French president also send back the other non-Roma Bulgarians, Ukranians, Romanians, Russians, etc. that are homeless, don't have jobs or that break the law?

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  • 56. At 1:24pm on 20 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    QOT

    Re Your #28 to #31

    I admit I did at first time of reading the UK Newspaper article re the history of Parliamentary & Council Legislation concerning 'travellers'/'gypsies' it seemed another totally ineffectual dig at Britain by You, a person who plainly does not comprehend half of what he reads with regard to the UK.

    Then I looked at the very small article beneath and knew You had literally exposed that 'misunderstanding' flaw in almost all You write!

    You really should have read a bit deeper: The article was a feeder to another fine example of the English Education system catering to all needs & all sorts of 'minority' issues.
    In this case the Education Pack advertised a Set of 26 Photos plus accompanying Text highlighting 'issues' about 'traveller-gypsy communities in England - - the KS2 on the pack = Key Stage 2 National Curriculum studies - - in other words Your supposed/alleged 'prejudice' in GB against that community was dealt with in nationwide School Pack enabling English pupils aged 7 to 13 to access, learn & consider various aspects of this minority's lifestyle.

    So much for 'prejudice'! An Educational aid-pack dealing precisely with the topic of 'roma' and doubtless used by all good Teachers as part of an extended Learning on the Rights, vulnerability, difficulties etc. of such social groups.

    QOT = Quite Often Twaddle!

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  • 57. At 1:25pm on 20 Aug 2010, Macca wrote:

    MarcusAureliusII, your viewpoint on Europe is highly entertaining, it amuses me greatly.

    Europe has also very successfully integrated many different minorities. There are many people from all over the world that have set up home in Europe. There are descendants of those people originally brought against their will but now live free in European society. There are even many Roma that have integrated and live happily.

    The issue here is with those people that are not here to integrate with the society but to steal and beg from the society. No country in the world tolerates this. France are not sending them to Romania because they are Roma, they can only sent them to Romania if they were originally Romanian citizens. Specifically France are targeting those people living in illegal camps and commit various crime.

    If there is proof that France is actually persecuting law abiding citizens (which I have not yet seen myself) then we can throw our hands up in horror...however...this doesn't appear to be the case.

    Still, it's good that we have the US to look to as an example. The way that they treat and integrate the Mexicans that cross the borders (sometimes ileagly) in hope of a better life and a slice of the American dream is an example to us all.

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  • 58. At 1:30pm on 20 Aug 2010, FR wrote:

    Sending the Roma/Gypsies back to Romania and Bulgaria will not solve France's problem because many of them will return to richer EU contries. Romania has nothing to offer them. There are no jobs there currently available for them. Romania's President himself is asking Romanians to leave the country and find jobs elsewhere.
    As all EU countries are affected in a way or another by different groups of migratory Gypsy population, EU countries should do more to find common, long-term solutions.

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  • 59. At 1:56pm on 20 Aug 2010, Benefactor wrote:

    @ 51 MAII

    "As I understand the EU, they are allowed to live in France legally because they are EU citizens. The governments of France and Bulgaria are conspiring to deny them of their legal rights. Where is a civil liberties or civil rights organization to bring suit in the European Court to present their side of the case?"

    Then you understand wrong. Again.

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  • 60. At 2:24pm on 20 Aug 2010, ankaha wrote:

    I would like to know what it helps to move people from one point to the other? It does not change their behavior, or does it? If you always face disrespect and refusal of your dignity (eg like some of the comments), how would you behave? What does it feel like not to be welcome anywhere?

    Furthermore, if you brand other people as "parasites", you might be interested to learn that even you (who is allegedly not a parasite) have benefitted from somebody else, without giving equally back, haven't you?

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  • 61. At 3:17pm on 20 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    When a member of an EU country wishes to live in another EU country , before the end of 3 month one must apply for residency . It is necessary to have a contract for work or show that one has sufficient means to live there without being a burdon on the state .
    If successful temporary residence will be granted for 5 years . towards the end of 5 years one must apply again for an extension of stay , again showing that you have employment or sufficient private means to live there . All being well you will be granted pemission for residency in perpetuity .

    Roma who have applied for and qualified for residency in France or another EU country will have no problem . A national , not Roma , of any other EU state who failed to qualify or was found to be living illegaly in another country could be repatriated .

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  • 62. At 4:25pm on 20 Aug 2010, Coby wrote:

    I think a public reading of The Cat in The Hat is in order. Simply shuffling "undesired" Roma around is not going to help them or anybody and is no way to approach any sort of issue.

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  • 63. At 4:57pm on 20 Aug 2010, PKDUB wrote:

    @51 MAII

    Vagrancy is not a crime in civilised societies? how about begging? prostitution? neglecting your children (failure to attend school is a form of neglect) ? I personally know of Roma children who have missed well over half of the last school year, who are barely literate and whose parents aren't in the least bit concerned to take help that is offered.

    Perhaps you're one of the vast majority in the USA who don't even have a passport and have therefore never been to Europe. Let me enlighten you: there are lots of Roma begging on the streets of most major cities, they live in filth, contribute nothing to society or economy and perpetuate that by their attitude towards children, women and the disabled (useful items to help get money). It is a problem and has to be dealt with. One way is to send them home so they're someone else's problem. Isn't that what Giuliani did to the homeless in New York? Ah but that was different... how?

    There are procedures you have to go through to live in another EU state, we're not a federal country like the US, we're a collection of nations who pool some sovereignty. I've lived in 5 EU states other than my own and had to register as a resident in 4 of them, as a taxpayer in all. I obeyed the laws and have the right to go there any time I please but I can be sent home if I don't.

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  • 64. At 5:36pm on 20 Aug 2010, lochraven wrote:

    " One MP from the president's own party called the round-up "disgraceful" and compared it with what the Nazis did. However, the measures appear to be popular with the public and the president has seen his poll ratings edge up." Gavin Hewitt

    What is popular is not always right. Look what the Nazis did to the Jews and others, and that was popular too.

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  • 65. At 5:41pm on 20 Aug 2010, democracythreat wrote:

    Huaimek wrote:
    "#20 democracythreat
    Whose human rights ? That of law abiding citizens , or that of thieves and human parasites , all and sundry ."

    Ah, yes. The quintessential continental conception of human rights. That is, you have human right for the right humans.

    I hear this argument all the time from ignorant, brutal, hideous fascists in Switzerland all the time. They think they understand human rights because they would bestow them onto the right humans.

    The phrase "law abiding citizen" is a nonsense, even at the best of times. In the soviet system after revolution, the law was that any three party members could convene and decide whether a fourth citizen deserved to die for "crimes". And that was lawful. it was the law.

    And consider yourself, Huaimek. Are you within the law? And what if you are not?

    What if I judged you to be outside the law, because your hate and your intolerance of the Roma constituted a breach of the peace and a transgression of race hate laws?

    Would I then be justified to deport you, perhaps bring my stormtroopers into your house in the middle of the night, manhandle the womenfolk in your clan, degrade your family in the public streets, and treat you no better than a farm animal?

    Would that be just, Huaimek? Would that be lawful?

    How much would you speak in favour of the law then? Would you wear it like a sword or a shield, and would you beg for justice and mercy beyond the letter of the law?

    You know nothing of the law. You clutch at it as a justification for the worst kind of brutal intent, just as every fascist does.

    That is why fascists wear uniforms and wave flags, rather than simply becoming freelance outlaws and murders. They want to be brutal to their fellows, but they are too frightened to act alone. They must hide behind the safety of "the law".

    And the worst aspect of fascism is even more ridiculous than the petty cowardice. It is the hive like stupidity that proclaims to all that if they will only conform to the dictates of the party, they will be safe.

    Huaimek is true to form, and he finishes his treatise thus:

    "Those who conform , have a right to bring the transgressors into line , or drive them out .
    Jesus didn't allow people to do just what they liked ."

    Anyone who thinks the very worst kind of brutality and violence is behind the european people is living in a dream land.

    Europe is a land of peasants and lords who think they are educated by privilege of birth.

    You can't even begin to have a serious conversation about the world of law before some half wit trots out the theory of the untermensch, and proposes firing up the ovens once more, to make Europe safe for "people who conform to the law".

    And because that half wit grew up in a semi-feudal society based on the caste based structure of civil law, he will be a lawyer because of who his father was, and not by any achievement of his own.

    It is a pitiful state of affairs, and I beg every British citizen to consider the value of the common law before they rush to embrace a common european framework of law.

    Where is the Commission on this issue of fundamental human rights for the Roma?

    Silent. They say nothing, just as they say nothing about the prolonged and outrageous abuse of human rights in Latvia.

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  • 66. At 5:50pm on 20 Aug 2010, lochraven wrote:

    MaxSceptic wrote:
    So far as I am concerned, what the French do is their business.

    (And I'd like Britain to have the freedom to act in our own interests without other countries sticking their nose into our business).

    If I may, I would like to use your last sentence and transpose Britain for US.

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  • 67. At 5:50pm on 20 Aug 2010, Benefactor wrote:

    @ 63 Paul.

    Nope, he supposedly lived in Europe (France specifically) for a bit. Some nasty 'Yurps' called him names and now he hates the whole Continent.

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  • 68. At 7:25pm on 20 Aug 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    51 Homer Simpson writes:

    "And then what, build a wall around it so they don't get out and come back to France again? Sounds familiar."

    Yes it does. I take it you mean like the one the USA built along the border with Mexico?

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  • 69. At 7:41pm on 20 Aug 2010, Mickalus wrote:

    67. At 5:50pm on 20 Aug 2010, Benefactor wrote:

    PMSL!!

    Regards,

    Mickalus

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  • 70. At 8:03pm on 20 Aug 2010, gjm wrote:

    At 10:59am on 20 Aug 2010, Anti_bigot wrote:
    "The responses to my post 1. At 3:42pm on 19 Aug 2010, invictager and 2. At 6:52pm on 19 Aug 2010, Menedemus re: the inaccurate assertion that EU citizens need work permits to remain in France beyond three months were quite clearly knee-jerk reactions as they failed to note the core argument."

    What kneejerk reaction was that?
    I most certainly accepted your core argument and didn't argue with a single point you made. I simply pointed out a further possible legal explanation for the action taken by the French.
    The fact that expulsions under this particular rule are comparitively rare does not exclude it from the list of possibile reasons that may be given by the French authorities should they choose to give a reason at all.

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  • 71. At 8:53pm on 20 Aug 2010, U14574559 wrote:

    This is just my opinion...

    If you persecute these Romas this will be a huge mistake...repeat past mistakes and

    Relive past history...

    Watch out, watch out....

    Marcus may be wrong sometimes (many) but he is right here....

    Maybe the man calling wolf is being shunned but Roma being in Hitler's camps with his mind focused on extinction of them???

    Truly, I'm not that up-to-date here in Kansas City, but ummmm...this is a complex problem but err on the side of RIGHT

    Remember there ARE universal truths and universal human rights

    :)

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  • 72. At 8:54pm on 20 Aug 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @ 3 Huaimek
    "The French Presidents fears regarding the Roma are fully justified."
    I agree; the 120 Roma of Bulgarian origine will be back in days.
    But how about the millions of North Africans of second generation and the tousands of illeagal immigrants of North & Central Africa President Sarkosy is not able to expell?

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  • 73. At 9:14pm on 20 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:



    http://www.grtleeds.co.uk/History/gypsiesEngland.html

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  • 74. At 10:50pm on 20 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #65. At 5:41pm on 20 Aug 2010, democracythreat,

    Pure rant and nothing more.

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  • 75. At 10:54pm on 20 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #72. At 8:54pm on 20 Aug 2010, generalissimo62,

    Very good point and very succinct. I've seen more beggars of African origin in Belgium than Romas but all who threaten us on the streets, in cafes, in restos are disliked.

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  • 76. At 11:00pm on 20 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #61. At 3:17pm on 20 Aug 2010, Huaimek,

    Quite so, if you follow the procedure you have few problems, if you become clandestine, sans papiers, then you deserve what you get as you do not deserve to be treated as those who have followed EU law. I saw myself how asylum seekers, refugees, sans papiers are given a privileged status by the do-gooders in most EU countries and have instant access to professions because they MAY have lost their papers, but then it's easier to pressure old age pensioners to have dodgy tarmac, or share their babies between the beggars.

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  • 77. At 11:02pm on 20 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #73. At 9:14pm on 20 Aug 2010, quietoaktree,

    Go to bed and don't forget to close the coffin lid.

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  • 78. At 11:16pm on 20 Aug 2010, justfaith wrote:

    Sakozyism is well and flourishing until the next election. The expulsion of the Roma people flies in the face of everything the French constitution stands for. Also, almost no one likes poor people. It is very crass to see that the Sarkozy gvt, in order to camouflage its ineptitude regarding all the problems it encountered and... the last scandal, is playing the hand of the extreme right wing faction of the country.

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  • 79. At 11:26pm on 20 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #77

    You keep running away to other blogs before my teeth can sink into the bed-bug sucked arguments !

    Very frustrating after closing time !

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  • 80. At 11:53pm on 20 Aug 2010, U14574559 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 81. At 00:15am on 21 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Marcus

    http://www.americangypsy.com/the_film/full_description.html

    There are a few links discussing the problems and life of American Gypsies.

    -- A very interesting persecuted culture and people - identical to the Jews.



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  • 82. At 00:20am on 21 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #80 KCDavid

    Not at all funny !

    How can you laugh when we are all on Blood Stamps ????

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  • 83. At 01:04am on 21 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    streptokrackpot;

    "The issue here is with those people that are not here to integrate with the society but to steal and beg from the society."

    If stealing and begging were deportable crimes, after WWII the US would have kicked Europe down the road like a rusty tin can.

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  • 84. At 01:10am on 21 Aug 2010, BeppeSapone wrote:

    There are public health considerations here.

    We can expect a further influx of Roma immigration in the near future.

    If a French field is preferable to life in Romania,imagine how attractive one of the few remaining shop doorways in the U.K., not currently occupied daily by one of their compatriots, must appear.

    As of the 26.5.10 The European Parliament and Council advised that the numbers of cats ,dogs and ferrets ,entering from one E.U.
    State to another,will be limited to five per person.

    These animals are required to have passports with the required veterinary proof of vaccination,blood testing,microchipping and tick
    and tapeworm treatment.

    It seems bizarre that droves of humanity from countries with an inadequate health service, are permitted to roam the E.E.C. with
    less health risk monitoring than ferrets.

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  • 85. At 01:12am on 21 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    acorn:

    You cannot cite one instance of a violation of human rights by police and claim it is proof that an entire people are being persecuted systematically by society at large. That's the way a communist and a fascist argue to sell their insanities. It happens to all people of all races not only in America but all over the world. Let's not confuse the issue. In the US the Roma have their lives in their own hands just like everyone else does. If they didn't, there'd be a large public outcry by an advocacy organization just like all other minorities have. That's what differentiates us from other places like Europe. If they choose to live outside the mainstream and occasionally break the law and they get caught, they get punished just like everyone else does. Even the likes of Martha Stewart and Leona Helmsley with their billions went to prison for breaking the law. Stealing is aganst the law unless you are an investment banker. Just ask Ghost of sechuan chicken if that isn't true.

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  • 86. At 01:34am on 21 Aug 2010, BeppeSapone wrote:

    "One MP from the president's own party called the round-up "disgraceful" and compared it with what the Nazis did"
    Surely he meant to say "the Vichy Government" ?

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  • 87. At 01:50am on 21 Aug 2010, PKDUB wrote:

    @85

    Nor can you claim that the deportation of some people who are illegally living in a country and making a nuisance of themselves is evidence of persecution of their entire ethnic group en masse. Not all Roma are being repatriated and until that happens all comparisons to WWII are hyperbole.

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  • 88. At 02:25am on 21 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    @87;

    When discrimination in employment, housing, educational opportunity is the norm and is not prosecuted it can't be claimed that those who are the victims and cannnot make decent lives for themselves are guilty. You deny people to right to compete fairly for jobs and then you call them vagrants so that you can deport them. That's fascism in my book. That's Europe today. BTW, when are the authorities in Ireland going to start prosecuting those who were employees of the Catholic Church including Priests and Monseigneurs who systematically brutalized children in their care physically, mentally, and sexually or played a role in covering it up for decades. How convenient that when these heinous crimes go undiscovered, the perpetrators get away scot free. Speaking about Scots, do you let those criminals off the hook on humanitarian grounds too or just legal loopholes your government created for them to slip through?

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  • 89. At 04:28am on 21 Aug 2010, natan wrote:

    There seems to be much confusion regarding the rights of EU citizens to freedom of movement. It is NOT true that an EU citizen must apply for a permit of residence after three months of staying. In most states, however, an EU citizen has to register his/her residence in the member state, beyond three months.
    Yes, an EU citizen must provide a document (ID card or such) in order to register for residence beyond three months. A citizen must also demonstrate basic economic means, which is a very flexible category: a job, looking for a job, some education, self-employment, a well written personal statement... It is all very pro-forma; these procedures are reduced to minimal efforts on the side of the citizen.
    But here is what I think is most important for this topic:
    "Union citizens or members of their family may be expelled from the host Member State on grounds of public policy, public security or public health. Under no circumstances may an expulsion decision be taken on economic grounds."
    The source is an gov EU website: http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/justice_freedom_security/free_movement_of_persons_asylum_immigration/l33152_en.htm

    For my American friends: while EU is not a true federation by a long stretch, it has some similar restrictions of movement to the US. In the States you are not allowed to enter certain states if you were an offender there. Likewise, you are not allowed to leave a state under some circumstances. Your college tuition will be higher if you are not a state resident. Your taxes will be affected as well as you driving license. And, what is most relevant to the topic: some states have their very own immigration policies (did someone mention Arizona?) Indeed, a legal resident (or even a US citizen) cannot enter certain states without piles of paperwork, against a risk of arrest or even deportation.
    And, yes, homeless in my town (NYC) were given some money to please leave the state for their home state.

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  • 90. At 04:46am on 21 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #65 Democracythreat

    Well Done !!! Your diatribe is good entertainment , Laughable !!!
    Why don't you invite the poor persecuted Roma to live with you in your house or apartment ? You might have a very different view of them if you did !!!
    I take it that you personify " Democracythreat ".

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  • 91. At 05:06am on 21 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #72 Generalissimo62

    YES !!! I lived in Italy for a number of years , so was very well aware of the invasion of illegal immigrants from Africa . France has a more serious problem , with it former North African colonies .

    The apparent wealth and prosperity of EU member states in recent years has drawn many less fortunate people to Europe .

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  • 92. At 05:46am on 21 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #78 Justfaith

    Being poor has nothing to do with it .
    When I lived in Italy , I knew many poor people who had come from Albania and Romania with nothing . They found jobs , worked hard , were honest ; though at first being rather severely reserved , eventually opened up and integrated into Italian society , which was from the beginning friendly towards them .
    Poverty is not the problem with the Roma ; whatever their appearance , they may in fact not be so poor . The Roma who cause fear and problems in all major European cities are those whose way of life and means of existance is by preying on the citizens , as I have listed in an earlier post .
    I now live in a rural village of a developing country ; where many neighbours are as poor or poorer than the Roma appear to be . It is true that we have barred windows as others do and one doesn't leave the house open and unattended for a moment ; but the very poor do not bother other people , have a clean shirt , shorts or sarong , there corrugated iron shack is clean . Nobody belittles people for being poor .

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  • 93. At 06:12am on 21 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #74 Buzet23

    Re post #65 ," I'm tickled pink !!! " , like putting a stick in a wasps nest .
    Re your earlier post refering to people who cause a nuisance on the street , in Cafès , Restaurants , even exclusive shops . I have experienced all of that too . I had to summon the manager one time .

    One has to be careful of one's choice of words or reference to races and creeds , lest the moderators see an offence .

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  • 94. At 06:26am on 21 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #89 Natan

    What you go on to say adds up to the same .

    I have listed what I had to do when I went to live in Italy some years ago in the 1990s . A job or private means of support , not to be a burdon on the state , are key factors as to whether you will be granted permission to take up residency . Without that document , in Italy , you cannot register as a resident at your address in your city or rural district .

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  • 95. At 06:41am on 21 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #65 democracythreat

    Aren't you the gentleman who in a post some time ago re Shengen ,
    complained of being stopped by the police in London on more than one occasion ; when most visitors would never be stopped at all .

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  • 96. At 07:07am on 21 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Humakemesick;

    "The Roma who cause fear and problems in all major European cities are those whose way of life and means of existance is by preying on the citizens"

    If individual people commit crimes, investigate them, arrest them, prosecute them, and punish them with fines and prison. If Europe won't enforce its laws it shouldn't cry when people break them with impunity. Europe proves every time it lets criminals off with a slap on the wrist or doesn't punish them at all that it is a collection of failed states. Where there is no law there is no civilized society. The failure of society to maintain order and respect for the law by demonstrating the power of the law does not justify racism. There is good reason to hold Europe in contempt. This is one of them. And then Europeans have the audacity to condemn American for putting its criminals in prison and executing the worst of them. What a moronic bunch Europeans are as a group.

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  • 97. At 07:17am on 21 Aug 2010, natan wrote:

    #94 Huaiunek

    You are confusing two (naturally-confusing) concepts: deportation and registration.

    By EU law you cannot get expelled to your home-state on "economic grounds":
    "Under no circumstances may an expulsion decision be taken on economic grounds."

    Now, in order to register your residence you MAY have to go through some tough procedures BUT: the same is true for citizens of their own member states! It is practically impossible to move to any region of France without having to register your residence (including home address and work). It is consequently difficult to find work with no address and to find address with no work.

    These are just typical European Kafkaesque issues. EU citizen or not. Your home member state or not.

    Generally (even in relatively corrupt states like Italy) registration is not a problem.

    But guess what: if you are discriminated in a non-home state you can take them to the EU court of justice. If you were deported on economical grounds this should make a huge case. If you cannot find work or other means of finance after three moths of staying ... well, join the club of the European blues. But, no worries, you will not get deported.

    Now, if you abuse the system (by being a burden, a criminal, or carrying some exquisite virus) then they will have to ask you to please leave. That's it.

    Also, in an extremely unlikely case of being deported: your re-entry cannot be a conditioned by the deportation. That's the EU law. Get familiar with it.





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  • 98. At 07:27am on 21 Aug 2010, PKDUB wrote:

    @ 88

    They have full and equal access to education, housing, employment, welfare etc and many go to schools with the rest of the population and live as neighbours. Others don't and make the choice not to avail of education so that their children can be more profitably used for begging.

    As for that other rubbish you were spouting, that seems to be a fairly ubiquitous problem wherever you have catholicism but I'm not following you off topic so go troll somewhere else.

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  • 99. At 07:49am on 21 Aug 2010, natan wrote:

    #96 MarcusAureliusII

    I agree with most material that you published up here. It is usually the Europeans who accuse Americans of hypocrisy and it is usually Europeans who are the hypocrites (that's a hypocrisy^2 [squared]).

    But in your last posts I have to wonder: with all the Arizona immigration laws (and now Virginia), calls for deportation of tax-paying non-citizen Americans (including children who have no memory of their "home" countries). Deportations of just about every LEGAL tax-paying, job-creating, public servant immigrant, who failed in a most absurd line of bureaucracy are today's reality in the US.

    US immigration system is so massed up that scientists who spent 20+ years of legal tax-paying residence cannot be granted a "green card" while a family based immigration with no requirements on language is practically unlimited.

    And the final absurd of US immigration: hardworking illegal Mexican immigrants, who speak English, are cleaning the garbage of legal family-based immigrants (US citizens) who never bother to learn the language and much less to work.

    With private militias on the Mexican border, mass deportations of English speaking, non-criminal, pro-US immigrants, with increasing rate of murders of Hispanic-looking man in states like NY, with Arizona and now Virginia applying their own immigration laws and ... with the biggest controversy being a Muslim center in Downtown Manhattan, today's America is not too far from today's EU. In some way Europeans and Americans are getting closer.

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  • 100. At 07:52am on 21 Aug 2010, U14574559 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 101. At 08:57am on 21 Aug 2010, Jim555 wrote:

    With Gypsy living in my country several generations are not problems.They work,go to school and living standart live as majority.Problems are with Gypsy who come from Slovak Republic,Romania or Bulgaria after 1989.Here are many gypsy who never work but their pension is counting from average income.So its ridicule cose most people in my country have not average income.Many Gypsy take social welfare as standart way of live.While most have one or two children of economic reason, Gypsy have much more in spite they have no job and living of social welfare.My country is poor and we really have not money for pay social welfare only for one minority.Here are living many minorities as Russian,Ukraine,Vietnam and no problems ,they not ask of social welfare,they always try look for job.So my question is:why is still problem only with one minority as Gypsy?Concerning foreignes in Europe.Most come here only of economic reason.Its was mistake that axample France tolerated it.Now France have a big problems with Muslims who not going accept France law.Of course that France have lowe deport forreigns out of their country.Its their country and no foreignes cant dictate about.To my judge,at first everybody have to respekt low of country where Im living,only then I can demand of my person low.Everybody have to try help icrease of social,economic and safety in his country.Some Gypsy only play on social systems of Europe.Its their way of mind,be in some place where is possible live on account of majority.Of this reason is for them important traveling through Europe.And now you all patrons of human rights can criticize of me.

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  • 102. At 09:02am on 21 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #97. At 07:17am on 21 Aug 2010, natan

    You quoted the actual directive earlier but you should also read some of the further reports that have been published by the EU [http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=MEMO/08/778&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en] is an example of the latest one that I found. The importance I note is not the protection against an expulsion order once somebody has residency, but the way in which residence after six months can be denied if the person is not self-sufficient. It seems that like most things in the EU the member states use their own interpretation and residency conditions are still there. Whether the ECJ could be invoked and whether the member state takes any notice of it are a another matter.


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  • 103. At 09:19am on 21 Aug 2010, powermeerkat wrote:

    " I was there. I couldn't even buy a train ticket in one station in Rome, the begging women were standing in front of the ticket machine, you were not allowing anyone to get near the machines unless you paid them. The police didn't even seem to notice or care."






    My experience too. Merely couple of weeks ago.

    And one thought Roma Empire was long gone. :(

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  • 104. At 09:59am on 21 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    QOT

    Re #73

    Another fabulously misconceived internet 'link' from You!

    This one is to the UK Official 'Gipsy/Traveller' Internet web-page - - partly funded by the UK tax-payer - - among its many interesting, informative & highly pertinent sites not only does it reveal the evolution of this community in Britain, but also in Germany (e.g. 'Anti-Roma Laws before Hitler'), France & other areas of Europe - - detailing the good & bad aspects of these peoples' experiences over centuries.

    And, why You would think an Internet site that is there to assist British Gipsy communities with everything form Education to Health, Housing & Legal advice would be something any Briton could regard with anything but pride in the UK provision for 'travellers'!?

    Again, one also has to ask, why would You think it is a 'British' concern anymore than any other nation?

    Why, when an article refers to France & several other EU Nations enacting legislation in 2010 against these groups should You feel so vulnerable in Germany as to point-the-finger at the British?

    Perhaps, more than any of us, it is QOT who should get hold of a copy of the English National Curriculum KS2 Gipsy Study Pack and acquire some knowledge as opposed to unsubstantiated 'prejudice'!

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  • 105. At 10:00am on 21 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #101. At 08:57am on 21 Aug 2010, Jim555,

    Your story is all too familiar across the EU and symptomatic of an EU culture that gives rights to all and sundry without demanding the responsibilities that should go with rights. There have been a number of stories in the UK media recently of how travellers can take over greenfield land and erect buildings, concrete it over etc with almost impunity, whereas a law abiding citizen who asks for planning permission to do something minor like putting a shed in his garden gets refused.

    The EU by its Socialist inspired pursuit of equal rights for all has in fact created a two tier society where the ordinary law abiding EU citizen are treated worse than asylum seekers, travellers, immigrants etc. The fact that people like Jim555 are now showing their distaste of the favouritism being shown to asylum seekers, travellers, immigrants etc should be a lesson to the EU mandarins but I doubt it, they will carry on asis in their blind blinkered way.

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  • 106. At 10:14am on 21 Aug 2010, fine-cut wrote:

    A little bit of context.

    Before the Roma question was brought to light one of Sarkozy's cronies and budget minister, Eric Woerth, was implicated in a case of conflict of interest, tax evasion and illegal party funding involving Lilliane Bettencourt (the L'Oréal fortune).

    The flare up of tension between the police and the Rom community served as a means for Sarkozy to turn media attention away from this affair. And it has, at least temporarily, worked.

    Sarkozy has used the "security" ticket throughout his presidency but, as all accounts and statistics show, nothing has changed a jot. His only contribution has been to stop community policing in favour of "groupes de choc" - the heavy hand. This has served only to increase tension between the police and ethnic minorities and the poor. It has reached a stage where even some of the police unions (not renowned for liberal opinion) disagree with his policies.

    By law, French municipalities are obliged to provide a site for the travelling community. Many do not do so, preferring to pay a fine instead. This means that there are not enough legal places for those that do wish to become sedentary, and they are forced to live on squatted land.

    The Rom incidents were therefore an accident waiting to happen.

    As well as expulsions, Sarkozy has indicated that he wishes to legislate to remove citizenship from French citizens of foreign origin who are involved in such incidents. The last time that legislation of this type was used was under the Vichy regime, when the Jews were the target.

    As one French thinker, Jacques Rouxel, once put it "To have a minimum of unhappy people, you should always hit the same ones."

    The effect of this cynical manoeuvre has been (as many of the comments here show) to bring out the racists and xenophobes to participate in what pretends to be debate. After all, if the President of France has these ideas it it gives me the right, or even the duty, to express similar ideas.

    Personally I am for a variant of Sarkozy's law on citizenship. The removal of citenship for persons of foreign extraction who have brought the French state and the institution of President into disrepute.

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  • 107. At 11:18am on 21 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #106. At 10:14am on 21 Aug 2010, fine-cut wrote:,

    "This means that there are not enough legal places for those that do wish to become sedentary, and they are forced to live on squatted land."

    I consider what you've said here to be the root of the problem, they choose to become sedentary or rather have a fixed place of residence instead of being continually on the move, but expect to not have to live in a house as the rest of us do or conform to local/national laws and ordinances. That is their choice but why should ordinary citizens who do conform be expected to accept that, after all anti-social behaviour by anyone is not tolerated.

    Also, you say they are forced to live on squatted land, there is never a justification to squat on something you don't own, this is a device used by anarchists and communists who claim dubious rights of the 'people' and it is a disgrace that the Socialist EU and member states give some legality to this tactic.

    Finally, your post is pretty accurate about the possible reasons Sarko has been doing this as he is extremely low in the polls, but as to tensions between police/public and minority communities, they have been growing a very long time and there have been many incidents over the recent years as a francophone mate of mine who lives in France has said to me. We even have similar problems in Brussels as there are a couple of areas where it is almost no-go for police due to the Moroccan population, and as for Brixton in South London, I think that still is no-go for Police unless they are in large numbers.

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  • 108. At 11:54am on 21 Aug 2010, Cav wrote:

    If you move to a country not your own, you obey the laws thereof and support yourself, legally. If you don't then you deserve expulsion. As others have said, it isn't persecution if it isn't aimed at a whole group of people for no reason and people who were born in a country are not included. But setting up shanty towns and living by intimidation of others is simply not acceptable.

    It is too easy to say look at Nazi Germany and what happened by following the law. The law is what makes society possible and Germany was an extreme case. Obey the law, unless it goes against basic moral right, and seek to change it if you wish.

    If you don't agree with the rule of law, switch your PC off now please, I'll be round to collect it right away. After all without law why should I not take what is yours?

    And please, don't give me the argument that we need to integrate people into our societies no matter what. No one has the right to just go where they like and do what they like. Everyone who moves to another community should integrate themselves not the other way round. If you don't like it, don't go.

    Marcus Aurelius, there is much that is great about America but it is hardly a paragon of virtue. Europe might become civilised? Like the US where some 20% of the population can't afford healthcare and many of those that do pay for it end up bankrupt (62% of all bankruptcies)? Where huge numbers are homeless (currently 670,000+)? With a worse infant mortality rate, lower average life expectancy than Europe? etc, etc. The list goes on. It's only in my life time that all black Americans have actually had the ability to vote - 1965. Disagree on thios issue if you wish but quit the anti-European remarks until America is civilised for the weak and powerless rather than just the rich, young and healthy.

    Europe has successfully integrated hundreds of different groups that come here to live peacefully and support themselves.

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  • 109. At 12:08pm on 21 Aug 2010, Louell wrote:

    One has to bear in mind that the Roma are a "stateless entity". Within both Romania and Bulgaria, they are still considered "stateless". It is too facile to emote, in a reactionary way, against the hostile treatment they receive in different countries in Europe.

    Roma remain largely lawless living an almost uncontrollable nomadic life and too frequently break the laws of the land. They prey on innocent citizens of their host countries and persistently commit petty crimes and serious crimes. At best, they present themselves in a nuisance fashion, regularly standing in key city locations, forcing their heather bouquets / spikes to passers-by. Almost invariably, they use incantations and curses on those who bypass them without complying with their demand for cash. Their behaviour is nasty generally.

    If they should decide to integrate or, at least, partially integrate into their host countries, observing the laws and respecting customs and traditions, they will no longer feel persecuted and shooed away.

    I have lived in a number of countries across Europe where exceptional tolerance appears to be shown. A blind eye is often turned even when overt crime and domestic crime are being practised in their circles, mainly because their neighbours live in fear and trepidation of unfortunate reprisals. Crime often goes unreported.

    It is not surprising then that President Sarkozy has come to the conclusion that repatriating to their country of origin is the only recourse for the sanity of the citizens of his country. There were loud boos when Italy expressed similar feelings and took steps to ameliorate the unacceptable state of affairs. Well, it isn't nice to have to take exceptional measures to solve civic problems but they do become legitimate measures.

    Romanian people, on the other hand, are industrious, intelligent, capable people and able to integrate well in divergent societies. The problem does not lie with Romanians or Bulgarians. Both countries have a fascinating history and have produced great minds in all fields. Citizens of both countries are an asset to the now Greater Europe and there is no question of hounding Romanians or Bulgarians. They are nice people to have as neighbours and friends.

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  • 110. At 1:08pm on 21 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #96 MarcusAuraliusII

    It is a long time since your brief visit to Europe . The EU and the Shengen Treaty have caused great changes since the time of your visit .
    I think if you spent some time today in one of the major European cities , you would certainly see the problem for yourself , you might even lose your wallet . European countries do deal with individual criminals as in other countries . When many cities have a colony of people living in unhealthy conditions on their outskirts , who are effectively illegal residents , whose means of making a living is preying upon the citizens of that city and whole district , it is a serious problem .

    I have had first hand experience of this problem and know how serious it is . It is not just the occasional bad apple in a community , it is a complete community organisation .

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  • 111. At 1:26pm on 21 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #97 Natan

    I am not confusing anything .

    To qualify for residency you have to have an offer of a contract for work supported by the prospective employer , or you have to show proof of sufficient means to live in that country without being a burdon on the state . Without conforming to the required regulations , permission for temporary residence will not be granted .

    People who do not attempt to register are permitted to stay 3 months , leave the country and return again . Those who flout the law by overstaying with no intention of leaving , will be asked to leave . If they don't , they may be forcibly repatriated .

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  • 112. At 1:47pm on 21 Aug 2010, Atomic_Mash wrote:

    The bottom line is that there is discrimination, marginalization and prejudice against the Roma in Europe. For instance, in Romania and Bulgaria, every single person I spoke with on the subject told me the same thing: That the gypsies are parasites - they are nothing but lazy, uneducated thieves. Some even admitted that they would never hire one.
    And well.. we all know what they think of Gypsies in France and Italy.

    On the other hand, in the Americas, there is even a slight sense of romantisism attached to gypsies, where they are more well known for their music and fortune telling.

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  • 113. At 2:15pm on 21 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Humakemesick;

    "It is not just the occasional bad apple in a community , it is a complete community organisation ."

    Truer more ironic words were never spoken. But it's not at all the community you are thinking about, it's what used to be called the "European Economic Community" and the communities of nations that are its constituent members.

    There were always professional pickpockets in Italy who made stealing a profession the police allowed. Those same police turned a blind eye to people trafficking. In the Communst coummunities of Eastern Europe there were no bigger criminals than the governments themselves. Of course what went on in Ireland with the Church was unspoken of, but those criminals had free reign then as now. In France even large department stores could sell you defective merchandise and then get away with it telling you that you broke it and would get no refund or credit. The North Africans were being brought in to be exploited. Everything Europeans did, bought, made, even the air itself was taxed, stolen by the governments. The little cliqueish clanish "communities" all over Nothern Europe were as closed and closed minded as ever. And now you have the EU, the European Community under another name. Yes it is the community. If Europeans don't like it and they have a democratic government as they claim they do then they should change it since by definition democratic people are empowered over government. If they have democratic governments and don't change it then they have no one to blame but themselves. If they don't have a democratic rule over themselves but a despotic dictatorships as I contend then stop pretending you do and do something about it. Europeans may have fought over empires, race hatred, to defend against marauding invaders but they never fought for their own freedom (except for the French Revolution which they won and immediatly threw away.) The problem of the Roma is the tip of the iceberg hardly worth mentioning. Stop focusing on the symptom and get down to finding and resolving the real cause of your community's problems or you will never be happy and you will never stop whining.

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  • 114. At 4:31pm on 21 Aug 2010, Derska wrote:

    This MarcusAvreliusII has clearly never met a Gypsy in his life. Let me invite to to Bulgaria, see how you like them. Do you want your wallet snatched in seconds? Come, sit in a bus, you can carry any bag you like. Yes, there are Gypsies in US, but they mostly live in the hot southern states and do car burglaries, while pickpocketting is practiced in restaurants. As a Bulgarian myself,who grew up in a Gypsy neighbourhood I can tell a Gypsy right away. In Bulgaria they roam in the public transportation, capital buses and trains are their favourite, while in US they prefer restaurants. Usually it's 2 people waiting for a 3rd. They get an orange juice or tea and pretend to wait for the other person, inevitably talking on the cell phone. While one is talking the other one is stealing from everyone sitting in the area. They always insist sitting in the most crowded and dimmed areas...Of course for a population of 300 000 000, a couple thousand don't stand out and you get the illision they are "integrated". But no such thing. The fact is, they live off criminal activities, don't hold any jobs, and BTW live in caravans. Also, because US is a mix of cultures and if a burglary happens, they are not identified by race. WHile in BG, the only dark race is the Gypsy one, so you can see 99% is done by the Gypsies. 100% of baby-selling, begging and pickpocketting- also by Gypsies, who have no way to disguise as Bulgarians. They are from India and look Indian. Anyway, if you think you can handle 3 million Gypsies, just open the border for all Bulgarians and Romanians, stop asking us for a visa your embassies don't issue. Wait, I got it: you don't want the Gypsies, that's why the only countries in EU who need a visa to travel are Bulgaria and Romania! Now see your own bigotry!

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  • 115. At 4:34pm on 21 Aug 2010, j_mur wrote:

    The solution is simple. Citizens that commit crimes for a living are not fit to give a good education to their children. Remove their children and they won't be able to teach them how to be criminals. This would stop the Gypsy problem, without punishing those of them who are not a problem for the society.

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  • 116. At 5:11pm on 21 Aug 2010, Derska wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 117. At 6:18pm on 21 Aug 2010, FR wrote:

    There are several comments here that Romanians, Bulgarians ond others consider Gypsies to be parasite, that they do not work and commit crimes. The problem put this way is simplistic. There is EU money in the Social Fund that has not been used by the Romanian Government for Roma integration. If we do not give Roma a choice (to study, to work), how can we ask of them to contribute to our societies? Why do we condemn them before looking at ourselves first? Are we doing enough to help them before saying that they are all nomadic, and their culture prevents them from integrating into our societies? Look at the US experience: the African population was stigmatized for centuries, but through affirmative action they are now part of American society fabric.

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  • 118. At 7:04pm on 21 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Haven´t we heard much of this before ?

    http://www.ushmm.org/propaganda/archive/anti-roma-propaganda/

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  • 119. At 7:31pm on 21 Aug 2010, Louell wrote:

    It is easy to empathise with Derska. The problem in Bulgaria could be as virulent as he describes it. Nevertheless, it must be said that as a Full Member of the EU, Bulgaria, too, receives considerable monies and financing from the EU. It would be fair to say that, in turn, the country should hone in on its internal security and put into effect all the measures required to enforce law and order. It is unfair and cowardly to plead with age old democracies to take over their burden wholesale. Exporting their problem doesn't help to solve it.

    Derska has a good point about the sheer unwilingness of Roma to integrate even when they are financed and assisted in acquiring homes, education and medical care. It is a pendulum swing situation where some argue that "not all Roma should be tarnished with the same brush". It is true that the more intelligent, evolved and ambitious groups within the Roma have opted for an honest living in tune with the law of whichever country they reside. Good for them. This does not alleviate the fact that multitudes of them live on the edge of the law and beyond the pale and cause untold havoc and crosses for their host countries. There is no question of being PC. Facts are facts and the problem can only begin to be dealt with once the reality is acknowledged. Bulgaria and Romania could ask for help from other countries to help them develop the institutions and mechanisms that could begin to control this out-of-hand situation.

    This brings us to the origins of the Roma. As a number of contributors to this blog rightly point out, Roma are not Romanian, Bulgarian or even vaguely European. They are pilgrims from the Indian Sub-Continent who over time have fled life-threatening situations for a better and healthier lifestyle. Good for them. Then they must accept that in order to gain acceptance in their host nations, they need to accept Education, concepts of Health and Hygiene, Social Behaviour and to become law-abiding, hard-working citizens like the rest of us have to be willy nilly.

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  • 120. At 7:34pm on 21 Aug 2010, Derska wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 121. At 8:07pm on 21 Aug 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @117 FR
    I TOTALLY AGREE.

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  • 122. At 8:18pm on 21 Aug 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @ 103 powermeerkat
    "And one thought Roma Empire was long gone..."
    It's gone, but Roma remain.
    Listen this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqHU-S00uOA

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  • 123. At 9:18pm on 21 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Dirtska;

    Oh thank you so much for presenting the universal European penchant for stereotyping and villifying entire populations. It is so refreshing to see a European finally revealing what is behind the mask I got more than a peek of for myself first hand when I lived there. It is one of the quintessential charactistics Europeans cling to that forms my opinion of them. The casting out of "the other" that we in America have evolved beyond. Do you have any idea what first generation Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans look like to average Americans when they first arrive here? We see you exactly as you see the Roma. I'll bet my own grandparents were seen that way by others when they first arrived. But the wall you erect to prevent them from integrating and assimilating is your doing not theirs. In the US people are assimilated usually quickly whether they want to be or not. The force and power impelling it is all but irresistable.

    BTW, we have millions of people who live in trailer parks, sit around in restaurants drinking orange jucie waiting for people, and some of them are even thieves, crooks, and among the worst criminals and not all of tehm are Roma. In fact most of them aren't. We grow them right here from all strains of ethnicity. And when they commit crimes we try to catch them and punish them. That is why there are 2 million people in prison in the USA, they belong there. Hopefully they will learn from their unpleasant experience of being locked up in a cage like an animal and won't do it again when they get out. Hopefully those who would copy them will also learn to avoid doing what they did.

    This is what I mean about Europe never changing. It may have been over 35 years ago that I lived there but it could have been 70 or a hundred it wouldn't matter. It's still at its core the same. It will never change. No EU law on paper will force it to. And BTW, that weakness of trashing human capital makes Europe a far easier competitor to defeat. Where would Barack Obama be today had he been born anywhere in Europe. For all his shortcomings he's much better than anything you've got.

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  • 124. At 9:39pm on 21 Aug 2010, Centurion wrote:

    I kind of understand France, even though it's certainly a bit irresponsible of them to send the Roma home (or is it their home?). We happen to have quite some trouble with the Roma, because their standards and habbits closely resemble those of a certain ethnic group in the US. They steal, they don't work and they keep their houses or flats in horrible conditions. Houseowners don't wan't to accomodate them. Most importantly, we have to pay for their social support - if we could, I'm pretty sure we would pay each a flight to Canada. On the other hand, I guess it happens to be our responsibility to take care of them (even though we didn't invite them - contrasting to the Turks in Germany or African Americans in the US). Based on this logic, France should've taken care of them as well and maybe try to start a campaign to discourage further Roma from migrating. Instead, the've dealt with them the easiest way...

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  • 125. At 10:04pm on 21 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    I keep hearing that the Roma steal. Why aren't they arrested and put in jail if that is true? If I can come to your country and just take what I want with impunity and no fear of punishment, I'll be there, just tell me where you are. BTW, I'm not Roma. If they can do it and get away with it as many of you seem to say, I'd say they'd be stupid not to. Especially if they are denied the opportunity to get jobs and earn money so they can acquire things the usual way by buying them.

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  • 126. At 10:18pm on 21 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #123 Marcus

    Keep the Palestinians out of this !

    (slight sarcasm directed at you)

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  • 127. At 10:43pm on 21 Aug 2010, Centurion wrote:

    "I keep hearing that the Roma steal. Why aren't they arrested and put in jail if that is true?" (MarcusAureliusII) There's a simple answer to this question - most Roma don't have an ID or a long time residence, so it's hard for the police to arrest them, so they mostly don't bother...

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  • 128. At 00:13am on 22 Aug 2010, kec132 wrote:

    This has always been a problem throughout Europe, whatever one may call ,them, Roma, Gypsies. Traveling People or Travelers...

    It is a way of life that they don't want to give up, dating back centuries when they 'roamed' from place to place, setting up camp where they wanted to, doing odd-jobs,fixing pots/pans, a little thieving, drinking and generally making nuisance. These days, the countryside is shrinking and their presence is more noticeable and they're very much 'in your face' setting up their camps wherever they like, even if it's a school's pitch. It's not a romantic life as some of them like to make it out to be -- they have modern problems such as sanitary issues with the camps, garbage, louts hanging around looking for unlocked doors, tribal feuds. Then there is the abuse aspect - women and children and babies out begging, no real education, lot of spousal abuse, alcoholism, drugs, fighting.

    The bottom line is that there is simply no place in this society for these people to continue to exist as they did 8 centuries ago. They have to move with the times or find themselves unwanted and unwelcome.

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  • 129. At 00:30am on 22 Aug 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    123 Homer Simpson writes:
    "That is why there are 2 million people in prison in the USA, they belong there. Hopefully they will learn from their unpleasant experience of being locked up in a cage like an animal and won't do it again when they get out. Hopefully those who would copy them will also learn to avoid doing what they did."

    I have just googled the prison populations in the world and America locks up more people than anywhere else on the planet - 738 per 100 000 as opposed to 148 in England and Wales. What do these statistics tell us about the so-called integration of minorities in the USA? That they lock them all up, in cages like animals as Homer so proudly states. I suppose that is one way of dealing with the problem - old comrade Stalin would have been proud of that. Mind you, I doubt that that would make the Roma very happy.

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  • 130. At 01:07am on 22 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    2Cents, so you mean if I don't have ID in Europe I can't get arrested? If I ever go to Europe again I'll be sure to keep that in mind and never carry any. What a dumb excuse. How long did it take you to think that up? If it was more than two seconds......I'd give my elementary school diploma back if I were you, you didn't earn it :-)

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  • 131. At 01:12am on 22 Aug 2010, Dan wrote:

    This should be interesting,how do you take a moral high ground when you don't know who they are http://www.clickromania.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=608&Itemid=22

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  • 132. At 02:03am on 22 Aug 2010, U14574559 wrote:

    Who are the Roma?

    That is my question. And if they are a "separate people" (nation) why do they not have a nation of their own?

    That would flummox them--wouldn't it? Whom would "support them" as their proponents? I think some empty space in Europe would do for them.

    Ooops, no empty spaces there, maybe they could live in the Paris catacombs. Or in Italy's old catacombs?

    That is what I get in my impression of the "problem in Europe."

    Disposable peoples??? ("We" don't want them here...why don't we put them "with the poor.")

    Oooops, sorry, no offense.

    I mean, this makes America look like a place of Saints and Heroes.



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  • 133. At 02:54am on 22 Aug 2010, Dan wrote:

    Mr KCDavid, if do know who they are , please feel free to share with us what you know, as for the fact that they have no country of their own; where is your sense of adventure? One day they might lead us to freedom when we all have chip up our backside

    best regards

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  • 134. At 03:09am on 22 Aug 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 135. At 03:16am on 22 Aug 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:

    About four years ago in Palermo I saw the same woman with two or three children several times. She was sitting on the pavement , begging. The children looked ill. They looked as if they had been drugged. I assumed she was Italian. Now I wonder if she was Roma.

    The Social Services should have stepped in. The children should have been taken into care. The woman should have been questioned by the police.

    There are plenty of things wrong with the UK but I believe that here the authorities would have taken action in this case.

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  • 136. At 03:25am on 22 Aug 2010, U14574559 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 137. At 03:28am on 22 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #127 Centurian

    I don't know where you are from ; I can only refer to Italy in this context . Having no ID is an offence in itself , never mind whether you have commited a crime or not . The police will take down your details , if they are kind , and ask you to show your identity card or passport at a police station . Without an identity document , residency is out of the question ; you will be asked to return to your own country .

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  • 138. At 03:49am on 22 Aug 2010, Dan wrote:

    I am a Romanian, it is so inviting to explain to all of you how bad gipsies are and how furious Romanians can be when foreigners think that Romania is a gipsy land made up of gypsys who can't wait to come to UK.
    ( Romanians 23 mil more or less - gipsies about 2 mil )

    I can resist anything except temptation and I declare myself a gypsy.

    Do not take this lightly, a good friend of mine had her laptop stolen by a gang of gypsies (she is an architect) in the Bucharest underground and another friend got his mobile snatched by a gipsy kid on a bike. The architect friend got a black eye in the process, she had important work on the laptop, and it was very traumatic for her, even thou she got everything back few hours later ( the leader-gipsy guy was illiterate and took the wrong train out )

    I am no tree hugger but my mother would have killed me if I don't take the side of those who needs to be helped.

    So, here I am, I am gipsy and I live in London

    My mother's name is Ioana - pity you don't get to meet her ( I am joking, she would do things to you until humanity becomes part of your DNA), she passed away long time ago.

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  • 139. At 04:13am on 22 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 140. At 04:21am on 22 Aug 2010, U14574559 wrote:

    Truly, Dan,

    My sympathies....I realize that the subject is serious.

    But, you know, people hate it when people--me--whom are not experts do comment.

    I hope your gypsy people live thru this and prosper.:)

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  • 141. At 04:39am on 22 Aug 2010, U14574559 wrote:

    I'm against the French action, but I did get referred for putting the name France and a word starting with "V" in the same sentence...

    No offense :)))

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  • 142. At 04:55am on 22 Aug 2010, Dan wrote:

    It is not fair , my IQ is not a salad

    I have been terminated 3 times from the Romanian educational system before the age of 16 yo. I work for Robuild and I dig foundations as a hobby.









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  • 143. At 04:56am on 22 Aug 2010, U14574559 wrote:

    No, Buzet,

    Not the word, vampire....I think vampires are neat.

    It was another word, "V....R"

    :))

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  • 144. At 06:21am on 22 Aug 2010, natan wrote:

    @ 123 MarcusAureliusII

    You keep preaching the American superiority in terms of tolerance, utilization of human capital, integration of minorities, etc. You are mostly right -- Europe is behind in these issues. But you keep ignoring American problems: Mexicans are treated as sub-humans and almost 10M of them don't have a right to exist (well, on this soil at least), immigration laws (the whole mass of this broken system) do not promote quality immigration (US is deporting PhD's back to China and India!), much less integration. I don't know where in the US you reside, but where I am (Harlem, Manhattan) English speakers are considered "Gringos" and foreigners. I'm not saying that this is wrong per se (there is no official language in NY state) but it defiantly does not suggest that US is quite as superior a melting pot as you are describing it.

    All in all, as I stated earlier, it appears that US is becoming more European in its attitude towards "the other" (Arizona anyone?) and Europe more American. The former for the worse, the latter for the better.

    But I understand: I am an ex-European too and we all have to be proud of kicking that bad blood out of our systems. It feels like quiting smoking.

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  • 145. At 07:56am on 22 Aug 2010, U14574559 wrote:

    Natan,

    Arizona's "cause" is loved by a minority whom are old and dying as we speak-and loud And grotesquely "informed." Some latch onto this issue, using it as a reason for our economic downturn...Republicans aren't even assured of winning this upcoming Congressional election. Scapegoating Hispanic Americans is not a big votegetter, Yet--people's fears enable Republicans hopes only so far--not very far.

    At one time, Republicans often recruited Latin Americans and Asian Americans semi successfully... of possible voters, 25% of voters are LOST--non white voters.

    Life is long and bitter memories will fade. My twenties were depression tainted--the Reagan era did not help back then--my mental state.

    I'm not walking in your shoes. Therefore, I won't even try to be an apologist" for the.."USA." But, being loudly vocal about an issue as extreme far right people, I bet will--hopefully--curtail Republican poltical power hopes.

    Thank you for your views. Just remember this ..Marcus expresses his opinion in writing well--up to a point. Then he spoils all his efforts by expressing hopes and expectations for European doom. I think it's not personal, just tactical..think...anger brought on by him could spoil your whole blog experience here....

    so, WHY BOTHER????? reading his posts? I always read up "to a certain point," myself..then I move to the next comment. I realize I'm no "fun" expert, but...

    Its like you learn to expect certain political bents, but not necessarily the individual point/gist of a comment and you can learn about the world--European style--from here.



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  • 146. At 08:23am on 22 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    As a matter of interest:

    The Sunday Mail (read online) this morning runs an article that the UK Coalition Government is considering new measures to prevent 'travellers' occupying land without permission over Bank Holiday weekends which they then reportedly turn into 'instant tips'.

    The UK has its own issue around the gipsy community which has done this sort of thing for many years: It can take upto 18 months to have the travellers legally removed from private/public land once they are on it - - it seems the Trespass Laws of England & Wales are a morass of contrariness!

    However, this is a problem with the UK's indigenous Gipsy community & not to be confused with issues over migrant/itinerant 'roma' from Eastern Europe.

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  • 147. At 09:54am on 22 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Dan

    Re #138

    Judging from Your writing - - Your mother sounds a really decent person - - who brought up a good, loyal son.
    Don't lose that in the helter-skelter, hubbub of London's mix.

    Your mother was correct: Stand up for Your kith & kin and the vulnerable 'minority' for whom a larger society may have misplaced bias/prejudice. The UK society generally welcomes those who will stand their ground on matters of principle and justice.

    UK has many faults (as so many on here are desparate to point out at any moment) and doubtless You are familiar with quite a few by now: All the same, London & the UK have many good, solid, dependable things too and with Your mother's personality in back of Your mind I'm sure You will be able to strike a balance.

    The curiosity of London is that like the other really 'great' (size, mix, opportunity, problems, wealth) Cities of Europe (e.g. Vienna, Paris, Rome) is it is often taken as being 'England' or even the UK as a whole. Likewise those European Cities are used as wholly inaccurate, broadbrush caricatures of entire Nations & Peoples. Some contributors on here clearly base all their remarks on their experiences (often tenuous & brief) of this vast, urban, cosmopolitan centre of the UK.
    It leads to all sorts of misconceptions about the 'english' especially. There are comments on here that seem stuck with an image of 'bowler-hatted' English or 'WW2 tommies' when as You will have seen those really are incredibly limited stereotypes and in reality have become 'minorities' within the much larger multi-cultural English population.

    Perhaps You will be one whose contributions will allay some of those more outlandish allusions to what it is like ('warts & all') to live & work in England and be a part of modern England.

    Cheers.

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  • 148. At 10:09am on 22 Aug 2010, Macca wrote:

    MAII - I'm sure you are a great intellect and some sort of Sociologist professor or something so you clearly feel that you're adding to this debate with informed opinion. However the poison pen approach seems to be ensuring that any intelligent thought is well disguised to reduce your comments to mere trolling.

    You are right that begging and stealing should be jail term sentences and guess what...they are! Many people, some of which are possibly Roma, are sent to prison.

    However, this is not simply petty crime but some people in large numbers travelling from place to place, setting up illegal dwellings, engaging in organised crime. These of course can also be arrested and put in prison too but then tax payers may wonder why they are paying for these peoples accomodation & food when they could rather be sent back to their country of citizenship. Also, why should illegals and non tax payers be able to claim welfare in a country that hasn't any obligation to support them? Most countries, and I include the US here, have problems supporting their own citizens on welfare. You can't simply absorb and support everyone.

    So if this was the US and a large gang of Mexicans set up an illegal camp outside Washington DC, organised crime etc...the US would simply arrest them and put them in prison and the cost of US taxpayers...right? And people would support this?

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  • 149. At 11:32am on 22 Aug 2010, Centurion wrote:

    "2Cents, so you mean if I don't have ID in Europe I can't get arrested? If I ever go to Europe again I'll be sure to keep that in mind and never carry any. What a dumb excuse." (MarcusAurelius) Wow, I mean wow... If you want to arrest someone in Europe, you have to have jury's approval, which is based on provided evidence. This may be a problem, but if approved by the jury, the policemen can go arrest the man. First, they need to know, where to find him. If he doesn't have a LONG TIME RESIDENCE (which you can find in his ID, which he doesn't have, thus he's not in any states documents), this may prove to be quite tricky. But even if the police know where to find him, they can't identify him, if he doesn't have an ID. The result? The Roma go away with it. Now about your plan of infiltrating Europe without your ID, you can - all you need is your passport. Now consider returning your high school diploma, provided you have one...

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  • 150. At 12:25pm on 22 Aug 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    I suppose it's difficult for Europe with gypsy lifestyle because the contrast is getting more visible. between the life styles.

    and the space is small. as someone here rightly pointed out. so the antagonistic life-styles' representatives keep bumping into each other:o))))))

    Well we in Russia have neither problem :o)))))))))))))) no difference who begs and steals ;o)))))) and where it all takes place :o))))))
    _________

    David poor us! I see my last bits of directions how to get to the int'l gypsy camp were swallowed by the moderators (may be a change of shift), while before all was going so swell.
    Or may be it was a moderator trap :o)))))))
    Dave, you will have to be a good gypsy and make use of what you've got. switch on google translation as well, as buzet recommends, to identify the word "registration' in Russian on that page.

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  • 151. At 12:53pm on 22 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    2cents;

    "If you want to arrest someone in Europe, you have to have jury's approval"

    I'm not a lawyer but based on your knowledge of the law....I'd try to get past elementary school before I applied for law school if I were you.

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  • 152. At 1:18pm on 22 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    natan;

    "But you keep ignoring American problems: Mexicans are treated as sub-humans and almost 10M of them don't have a right to exist (well, on this soil at least)"

    I don't know who you are, where you really are, or where you come from but you do not know what you are talking about.

    Every country has a right to exclude foreigners from entering its territory illegally and if it finds them there deporting them for no other reason than that they are there illlegally. In fact it has the right to make it a crime to enter illegally and put them in prison before it deports them to deter them from coming back illegally again. That is what it means to be a sovereign nation, something many in Europe seem to have forgotten.

    The Mexicans you are talking about are in the US illegally, the Roma are legal citizens of EU countries and have the same rights including the right to travel freely within the EU that all other EU citizens have. If they break the law, they should be arrested, prosecuted, and if found guilty fined, imprisoned, or both as a punishment and a deterrent to themselves and others. That is what civilized countries do, make and enforce laws to maintain civil order. Europe seems to have forgotten that too.

    Nevertheless, Mexicans and all other foreigners who enter the United States illegally are not treated inhmanly any more than some of us treat each other inhumanly. Naturally for many reasons they are easy targets for exploitation. But not by the government. In fact their children who may also be here illegally get a free education just like everyone else and in their own langauge too. In Florida for example, Ameicans had to pay to hire enough teachers who could teach in two subdialects of Hatian creole to teach the children of those who came here illegally by boat. They get jobs, own cars, even homes. There's talk in some places they will even be allowed to vote in local elections. What do you think of that? There are sanctuary cities like San Francisco where the city government actually protects them from deportation. If they get sick they get the same medical treatment other poor people get and they are admitted to hospitals and emergency rooms just like everyone else even if they haven't got a dime to their name. They may not always get the best medical treatment money can buy in America but it is adequate. Until recently a large hospital in Texas gave free world class cancer treatment to illegal aliens but had to stop because of cost and budget constraints.

    The relationship between the US and Mexico is very complex. Mexico's corrupt government has kept its people largely impovrished and unemployed for over a century. It is thoroughly corrupt and a perfect conduit for illegal narcotic drugs to flow North to satisfy America's insatiable appetite for them and for guns that are legal in the US to flow South of the border illegally to arm the drug cartels who have set up shop there. Before the drugs and before Mexicans were taking more skilled jobs away from Americans like construction jobs in the US during better times we tolerated their presence to a fair degree. We were promised that if the illegal Mexicans living in the US were allowed to become citizens of the US the illegal flow would stop. This I think was during the Reagan administration so it is not a conservative liberal issue. Senator McCain who co-sponsored the Kennedy McCain immigration bill that was defeated was a conservative. But the problem was not solved and now some are trying to do the same thing again. America won't allow it. President Obama now understands that if the Federal government won't act, the states will act for them instead. That is why he just sent so many more federal agents to assist in border control to the four states that have a common border with Mexico.

    BTW, even under Arizona's new law if and when it goes fully into effect, it is illegal for police to simply stop anyone and ask them for proof of their legal right to be in the US. It must be asked during the investigation of another crime. No they are not treated inhumanely. And what do you expect, many do not speak a single word of English. Naturally they will live and stay among those who speak Spanish or whatever language they speak. Those that haven't been assimilated yet that is.

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  • 153. At 1:50pm on 22 Aug 2010, Anti_bigot wrote:

    #111.Huaimek,

    You use the modal 'will' as if it's a procedure automatically enforced. A more appropriate term would be 'may' or 'could be'. In any case, it's purely academic now as technically since 1/7/2006, EU citizens have not been required to apply for 'permission' to reside in another EU member State. Moreover, denial by local authorities or the State to issue a registration of residence certificate where such a procedure is required, as would be for locals, is not on the cards any more, specifically for economic grounds. The safeguards against 'expulsion' or 'denial' of residency are much stricter under Directive 2004/38/EC with the onus on the State to prove otherwise.

    For a State to target an individual for expulsion on the grounds that he or she has become an burden on the State, would mean that that individual would have had to made some sort of application for social assistance, otherwise, how could it be proven that such a person had become an burden? Now, here comes the silly bit which makes the whole argument simply academic. In all States that I know of, to apply for means tested benefits, or social assistance, you need to have been resident for a number of years or be a permanent resident in any case, or your application would simply be refused. Which only in theory would alert the authorities and give cause for an expulsion order, but such a result would be/is rare and dramatic. The only alternative for persons in such circumstances is for 'contributions' based benefits, i.e. unemployment benefits based on insurance contributions made over a certain period of time, usually around at least 12 months' worth in any 15; incidentally made in any EU State within the last 15 months. In the latter case, such an individual cannot be classed as a 'burden'. If you had bothered to consult the links to the texts on Rapid and the europa website offered before, you could perhaps have enlightened yourself a little more.

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  • 154. At 2:25pm on 22 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    In a free, democratic, and unified country, the United States, any citizen can at any time on any whim move from one state to another. There are no papers to fill out, no prermissions, no anything, you just go. No state can turn you down as a burden or tell you to go back to the state where you came from if you can't earn a living. Never having needed welfare benefits I don't know the rules but someone I knew who worked for the welfare department in Mountainview California once told me that if a Mexican knew how to work the system, he could walk into the US at 8AM and be on welfare by noon. I don't know if that is still true I doubt it. Whatever the residency requirement for welfare benefits are in a particular state, I'm sure they are modest (something like 30 days) and in dire circumstances there are both public exceptions and other resources and private charities to give aid in the interim.

    About the only restrictions I can think if is if you establish residency in a new state, you are required to register your car and obtain a driver's license in that state within 30 days (not usually strictly enforced.) You also cannot receive welfare or unemployment benefits from two states at the same time.

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  • 155. At 5:56pm on 22 Aug 2010, Centurion wrote:

    "If you want to arrest someone in Europe, you have to have jury's approval"
    It's true. The only case, when this doesn't apply, is when you catch the criminal during or shortly after the criminal act. This doesn't happen very often though - either they steal at night, or on locations, where the police usually doesn't patrol. You'd be surprised, how quickly some Roma figure out, where it's "safe" to steal and where not - as if it were part of their lifestyle... (MarcusaureliusII) Comparing the United States to Europe is just silly, because one is a country (a federation, but still a single country), whereas the other is a continent full of different countries. European Union does provide certain freedoms to european people (including the freedom of movement) but it also provides conditions, under which these can be withheld, because all these agreements are "international", not "internal". Even after the Lisbon trety, which (among other things) gave us a europresident, the EU remains a body of countries and not a federation or a single state - this means that there are ways for a single country to take matter in its own hands sometimes. EU is very specific in the way it treats international agreements and law and can't be likened to any other organisation or federation - especially not the US. Most of your comments here show the narrow view of an American, who lives in a country with much shorter history than any European country including developing ones. Now all my original post tried to say, is that the French could've done more to solve the problem, but also that their problem is understandable from my point of view and maybe from that of the EU...

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  • 156. At 6:06pm on 22 Aug 2010, Centurion wrote:

    I've made one mistake though, I must admit - I didn't mean the "jury", but the "judge" - I can't believe I've made this mistake. English is a tough language...

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  • 157. At 9:13pm on 22 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #153. At 1:50pm on 22 Aug 2010, Anti_bigot,

    It would seem to be you that needs to refer to the links, what is written in directive 100/101/120/55/33/99/101 part x appendix IIVX is only in part implemented by the member states. PS. the directive I've quoted is as fictitious as most directives.

    As far as the reference period for social benefits goes that varies totally on the country and can be dependant on age as well. It can also vary as to how far back the work experience goes as 12/15 months is unusual, normally its at least three years and the reference period can go back as far as 15 years. For this Europa is useless as it merely repeats the theory (directive), for the reality you have to look at the country concerned with the claim.

    As for "In all States that I know of, to apply for means tested benefits, or social assistance, you need to have been resident for a number of years or be a permanent resident in any case, or your application would simply be refused.". Where are you living or have been living. There are many levels of benefits, the basic ones are outside the scope of the EU, for the unemployment etc you should know that ALL EU citizens have to be treated equally, which means that to qualify all have to have worked as a salaried person for at least one day in the country. After that their work as a salaried person within the reference period in another country is taken into account. If not then it's whatever the local commune or region deem to give. If you've been self employed (Independent) then it's too bad in Socialist EU.

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  • 158. At 9:27pm on 22 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    #156 2cents;

    2cents;

    Judge, jury, executioner, what the difference? I don't know where you're from or what language you speak there but maybe to you they're all the same. First the execution, then the trial.

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  • 159. At 9:40pm on 22 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Centurion

    Re #149, #155, #156

    Sorry, but You are somehow getting mixed up over this 'arrest' business.

    In many of the EU27 Nations Police do not need the permission of either a 'judge' or a 'jury' to 'arrest/detain' a 'suspect'. Police need only to have gathered enough primary evidence to 'detain' a person as a 'suspect' of committing a crime.
    After questioning within a specified time 'under-arrest' and if Police believe they have enough 'evidence' against the 'suspect' the Police may then lay a 'charge' against that suspect or release them for 'lack of evidence'. Police do not have to, but often do make this decision in consultation with the relevant Legal Prosecution department.

    At this point across the EU27 there are quite a few variations on the Legal process:

    In England it is after arrest and charge the investigating Police must pass their file to the relevant Legal Office who will consider if there is enough evidence for the person charged in the case to be taken to Court. This is the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) who are separate from the Police to ensure all accused have a fair Trial.

    All 'serious' Crimes & many others are heard at the Crown Court: In Court the person charged is called the 'accused/defendant'. It is at a Crown Court a Judge & Jury will hear the case of the Prosecution & the Defence about the 'accused/defendant'.

    After a Jury hears the evidence 'for' & 'against' the 'accused/defendant' they are given direction/instruction from the Judge presiding over the case. Then the Jury will privately debate the evidence about the accused and give their 'Verdict' of Innocent or Guilty.

    If an accused is 'Found Guilty' the Judge will then, or after considering reports about the guilty person, announce their 'Sentence' on that person.

    For relatively minor Offences in England there are Magistrates Court where only 3 'lay' Justices of the Peace (specially trained members of the public) sit to hear the cases, decide innocence or guilt & announce sentence.

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  • 160. At 9:55pm on 22 Aug 2010, U14574559 wrote:

    2cents equals ....ok i get it now...took me a while....

    need to do better at the nicknames, marcus....OR

    you are becoming nice ....ohhhh nooooo:)))

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  • 161. At 10:02pm on 22 Aug 2010, Derska wrote:

    MarkusA ,let's go back to the Gypsy issue. If you want to comment on it, you must AT LEAST know a Gypsy. I grew up in a mixed neighbourhood and stand a witness to all your doubts that they can somehow be changed with a magic wand. So what if France saying by removing them from their soil? That they are criminals. And where do criminals belong? In jail. Would that take time and resourses France would rather not spend? Yes. But why pay to espulse them? That only exacerbates the problem, and helps noone: they'll be back tomorrow doing the exact same thing. If not in France, then somwhere else in EU. They won't stay in Bulgaria or Romania, because they don't identify themselves as either nation. They are TRAVELLERS, that's not a nationality, but a mentality. EU must undestand this simple fact. As for US, the only reason they ask Bulgaria and Romania for travel visas is because they cannot handle 3milllion Gypsies influx. No other country in EU has such 10% Gypsy population, so they pose no threat to US. So we Bulgarians are DISCRIMINATED against ONLY because of this 10% Gypsy population. That's bigotry!
    Hope my comment is not deleted again-I use no more offensive language than anyone else here.Apparently Americans can write anything they want, and Bulgarians are not welcome to this forum?!? Where is democracy if I can't say my honest opinion?!?

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  • 162. At 10:28pm on 22 Aug 2010, U14574559 wrote:

    Alice,

    Im giving up for now...internet is not addictive..its the new culture...and im gonna buck the trend for a bit

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  • 163. At 10:42pm on 22 Aug 2010, kec132 wrote:

    #40 Marcus Aurelius

    No problems with 'roma' living in America? You should watch more news-based shows my friend. Several of them have aired programs the last couple years just about that ... how they go around preying on elderly especially, promising to fix their roof, clean their chimney, paint their house, re-pave their driveways... Then there are the problems stores are having with their large-scale shop-lifting and thievery.

    No problems in America?? Untrue.

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  • 164. At 11:04pm on 22 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #147 CBW

    What is this Nationalistic nonsense you are spouting ?

    Modern England ???

    Sunk in the past !

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  • 165. At 11:16pm on 22 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #162 KCDavid

    Are you leaving us -- Yet again ???

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  • 166. At 11:20pm on 22 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #163

    You will get used to Marcus being confused by facts --just be patient like the rest of us !

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  • 167. At 11:58pm on 22 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    This prejudice against Gypsies should be seen in the proper proportion.

    ´Some rob you with a sixgun -some with a fountain pen ´ (B. Dylan)

    Ask many Americans, Brits or Ghostofsichuan how many lives have been destroyed by ´Law Abiding Citizens´and their respective lobbies.

    Many, many more than by hounded Gypsies !

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  • 168. At 00:15am on 23 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Keck123

    If you think Roma are the only ones preying on the elderly in America, you haven't visited a bank in the last 15 or 20 years where they trick the elderly to sign over their life savings to some hairbriained investment scheme that loses them 6% the second they walk out the door (no kidding that's the fee for many high load mutual funds like Putnam and Evergreen banks were selling as investments to their customers foolish enough to fall for them.) They had a host of other schemes too like annuities. Lots of people prey on the old, the young, the infirm, the mentally weak, the naive. We have a saying here, "a fool and his money are soon parted." So why do you single out the Roma when so many do it?

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  • 169. At 00:20am on 23 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 170. At 00:33am on 23 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Marcus

    Stop misbehavin´

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  • 171. At 00:43am on 23 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Dracula, you got your answer. The moderators didn't like it. So just go back to Europe's history about 75 years, change the names, the labels, the places and you have what I think about your comment.

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  • 172. At 00:56am on 23 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Marcus

    Don´t try to do a CBW on Kec123 and twist his words.

    He did not say that --he only proved you wrong and suggested incomplete knowledge !



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  • 173. At 01:03am on 23 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Marcus

    May the bed-bugs get you first !

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  • 174. At 01:22am on 23 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    acornbrain, I know English is a tough language but it think the distinction between a judge and jury for that poster is a conceptual problem of social structure, not a linguistic problem. In his society perhaps there is no difference. Perhaps where he comes from the judge tries you, convicts you, and sentences you. If there wasn't a ban on executions in the EU he'd probably wield the axe too.

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  • 175. At 01:59am on 23 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 176. At 02:28am on 23 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    Marcus

    Comments concerning Mr. Hewitt´s responsibility for this blog and British responses to it, are not desired.

    I wrote that his deliberate omission of Britain in his discussion topics encourages a one- sided response from many British contributors who are never required to compare their society with others.

    The prejudice against Gypsies in Britain is only one of many examples.

    Kec132 appears to be an American and stated no more than many others.

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  • 177. At 02:35am on 23 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    MODS

    If #176 doesn´t pass -- then it´s censorship.

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  • 178. At 03:54am on 23 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 179. At 04:05am on 23 Aug 2010, Decebalus wrote:

    Just a note for MarcusAureliusII.

    Your comments about European tolerance and integration, and your comments about victimising the Gypsies are a joke. You my friend don't have the slightest idea about the real gypsies from Eastern Europe. SOME OF THEM NOT ALL are proud as being thieves and being "clever" with tricks like begging and cheating the system, they developed their cheating skills in hundreds of years, and many refuse to integrate.

    Gypsies are a European Problem and we dont mask it as the 'United Statians' mask the Afro-American problem in the US. More than half of the prison population in the US are blacks, well done USandA!

    The US integrated the blacks very well in PRISON. Even Obama could have been a Black Prisoner, statistically. And dont get me wrong but the US is still a WILD WEST Country for at least 100 reasons, when compared with any EU state.

    A gypsy in EUROPE has more FREEDOM than a 'Colored' American in Alabama Jail.

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  • 180. At 06:59am on 23 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    QOT

    Re #164

    What is this Germanic superiority You are hinting?

    "..one-sided response.."??

    Nationalistic Berlin trend more like!

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  • 181. At 07:52am on 23 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #159. At 9:40pm on 22 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    "Centurion

    Re #149, #155, #156"

    Don't forget that in the UK and probably other EU countries, the police need to ask a Judge for permission to do certain things, i.e. search warrants, surveillance to name two that spring to mind.

    #161. At 10:02pm on 22 Aug 2010, Derska,

    Being referred here is a hazard we all meet from time to time and nothing to do with you being from Bulgaria, even the most innocuous posts sometimes get referred because of the strange moderation filters they use.

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  • 182. At 07:54am on 23 Aug 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @ 103 powermeerkat
    "My experience too. Merely couple of weeks ago. And one thought Roma Empire was long gone."
    They are everywhere in old Europe, I mean the Roma. The integration is more difficult than a marriage between an orthodox boy and Muslim girl. If the EU will invest money in Romania & Bulgaria, as promised, we should start by proceeding with the education of those people, and at the best, the first positive results will be visible, say in 20 years. BTW the first 13 expelled Roma from France landed last Friday in Sofia Airport. They say that the total number will not exceed 100. For the time being, we, the Bulgarian folks with our neighbours, the Romanians seem to be the scapegoats of the EU when it comes to discuss the illegal immigration issue. As a matter of fact, that problem is by far less significant than the real immigration burden all Europe is suffering now from, taken the fact that thousands of North Africa, Central Africa and Middle Asia are penetrating somehow in old Europe in search of a better life.
    Well, our Bulgarian Roma will be back in days. But does it mean that the immigration problem will be solved with their repatriation? And if we are integrating them (though slowly, but progressively), how can president Sarcosy integrate all those Muslim people we meet at any street corner in Marseilles, in Paris, in Strasburg? Or how shall Frau Merckel be able to expatriate (at once) all those Turkish migrants who are working day and night for the "German economic miracle"?
    BTW, listen to this friend:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWPTqdT79Rs

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  • 183. At 08:05am on 23 Aug 2010, charliesister wrote:

    No need to see right or wrong about the repatriation in absolute terms. A nation with a healthy level of self-confidence won't do such a thing. This is as much about France's--and Sarkozy's--sense of security as it is about the Roma.

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  • 184. At 08:25am on 23 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Buzet23

    Re #181

    Agreed: My explanation was toward the confusion over use of Judge/Jury which is not needed for UK Police to 'arrest'/'detain' a 'suspect'. Though in all cases where Police want to hold a 'suspect' beyond the normal period they have to get a Judge's authority and in suspected 'terrorism' cases Judge's must give their authority for the extended (28 day) detentions. In all cases the 'suspect' may apply for 'Bail'.

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  • 185. At 09:08am on 23 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #167

    "...how many lives ruined by 'Law Abiding Citizens.." and, "..many more than hounded by Gypsies.."

    But still considerably less ordinary & gipsy 'lives ruined' than by 'Law Abiding' Einzatsgruppen etc.

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  • 186. At 09:26am on 23 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #183. At 08:05am on 23 Aug 2010, charliesister,

    Re "A nation with a healthy level of self-confidence won't do such a thing."

    I think you're mixing self confidence with an assumed air of culture, political correctness and civilisation, where it is PC to 'care' about anything and everything no matter the cost to you or your country. It should not be unspeakable or taboo to discuss the Roma or immigration as many countries are having great difficulties now. It is a shame that Sarko has latched onto this politically incorrect subject to boost his poll ratings and it is a shame that the political elite who consider themselves cultured and caring refuse to consider a solution to these problems. Sarko is regarded as a joke in France but that being said these problems need addressing, as whilst unrestrained immigration may be a Socialist dream most ordinary people do not agree.

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  • 187. At 09:54am on 23 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #152 MarcusAuraliusII

    Some Roma may be citizens of a west European country ; but the majority as refered to in this blog do not . I do not know whether they come with passports or not . As they are SO unpopular at home , it is possible that they may be granted passports to get rid of them . With the Schengen Treaty they can roam all over central Europe .
    People can be arrested with or without documents ; those without may be detained and ultimately deported .
    Where ever you are in Europe , if you commit a crime you run the risk of being arrested and put in prison , pending a trial .

    In recent years Italy has had a purge on prostitution . In Cities at night you would see more girls swinging a leg , that trees in the avenue . Most had had there passport taken by Pimps , even so they were rounded up and returned to their many countries of origin .

    Large and potentially dangerous communities , illegally living in unhealthy , unsanitary conditions on the edge of a city is more difficult to move , some have caravans , others a make shift Baracca . periodically the police get tough and forcibly move them all on and close the filthy site .
    Roma are not necessarily poor people , it is a way of life and remuneration that they have chosen .
    Do not imagine that they escape the law and they are as likely to get caught as anyone else and are frequently caught . They are subject to the same treatment as any other person who breaks the law .

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  • 188. At 11:05am on 23 Aug 2010, Chris London wrote:

    This all just cements my thoughts on the EU. We the British follow the rules while the rest use them to their own benefit. If they don't suit they just ignore them. Over the last couple of months this has been the case. France is ignoring the EU regulation as did the EU itself when it bailed out Greece. This was and still against its constitution. However that fact has just been swept under the carpet. All this from an organisation who can't get its accounts signed off for more years than they care to remember. Why is this tolerated? The World bank and the IMF Etc, Etc, Etc............ should hold them to account.

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  • 189. At 11:05am on 23 Aug 2010, Decebalus wrote:

    Gypsies are a European problem and we have to face it, not like the Americans hide the Afro-American problem in the US. More than half of all prisoners in the United States are black.

    The US has integrated the black minorities very well... in PRISON.
    it's a sad verifiable fact, not an insult!

    Shall we do the same in Europe?
    Throw the Gypsies in jail? Or educate them?

    Question is Education or Jail? I favour education.

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  • 190. At 11:36am on 23 Aug 2010, Nik wrote:

    168. At 00:15am on 23 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    """So why do you single out the Roma when so many do it?"""

    Marcus, you Americans are not so versed in gipsy matters. Gipsies are a fantastic lot, call it tribe, call it culture if you want that managed to so the formidable achievement of fleeing India where they worked mainly as musicians, recyclers and petty thiefs all that some 1500 years back and expanding throughout all Middle East, Eastern and Western Europe and managing after 1500 years to remain in ALL those countries in the professions of musician, recycler and petty thief.

    Do not overestimate the discussion. Gipsies are not a social problem, they are simply a parallel society that lives next to you not minding you, you not minding them which only occasionally under particular circumstances becomes a localised nuissance if their numbers rise suddenly in a certain region.

    You can't do much about them, they can't do much about it either. People that speak about "integration" and "education" of the young gipsies are simply deeply ignorant and certainly semi-illiterate themselves. They do not understand that if the gipsies ever wanted to be integrated they would had done it some 1500 years now and they can still do it in no time whatever the attitudes of the locals. But that is not the will of their majority. The solution is mutual respect. If gipsies do an effort to respect locals and avoid hurting them and if locals do respect the way of life of the gipsies and do an effort to understand their ways then there is no problem.

    If you ask me, I happened to serve in a camp where nearby there were fields for recycling and getting rid of old cars and - guess what - there were 3 gipsy camps around. Every night they had party time (everynight! life is good!)... fantastic! I would guard say from 02.00 to 04.00 and would be entertained for free by top range musicians playing live all the latest as well as classic hits and some excellent unknown of their own some 300-400m away, musicians other would pay a substantial amount of euros to listen in nightclubs.

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  • 191. At 11:51am on 23 Aug 2010, Nik wrote:

    Decebalus, the question with gipsies is not so much of education (since they do not want it so much as some people think) but of management. You let them live their lifes the way they want it and you arrange with them so that their presence is least nuissance for the locals. Eg. you pinpoint them public lands where they can set their camps, you arrange with them issues like kids schooling (but forcing them to send their kids won't give any results as numerous examples in numerous countries has shown) or garbage collection or policing (there, police needs to employ gipsys as "camp policemen") and everything will be ok. Gipsies are not the worst people you can meet out there in fact they are very adaptable and they can perfectly cohabitate with others as shown for example in extreme cases like in the Greek army (where all the streams of society gather to sleep under the same roof) where gipsies, despite their notorious lack of discipline, did not provoke the problems that Albanian, Georgian and other Caucasian people provoked (them only when grouped to together in substantial numbers) and most often prove to be quite popular among conscripted soldiers and professional officers alike first of all for their musical talents.

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  • 192. At 11:51am on 23 Aug 2010, Anti_bigot wrote:

    #157. At 9:13pm on 22 Aug 2010, Buzet23

    I don't disagree with you for the most part, but you missed my point. I was making a distinction between 'means' tested benefits, which are funded by the public purse and 'contributions' based ones; funded by insurance schemes paid for by workers. While the eligibility, procedure and set up does indeed vary from State to State, a good bench mark is that an applicant normally needs to have paid up at least 12 months' of valid insurance contributions within the EU to be eligible for the latter. My other point was that it is very difficult for a State to prove someone has become a burden if, as in most case although not impossible and indeed as you pointed out discretionary on a local decision, it isn't possible to receive the former type of benefits unless that person has already been resident in the system for a length of time or is already a permanent resident. In the UK for example, it is not possible to claim means tested income support during the first two years of residency. Even for returning UK nationals!! And, since expulsion on economic grounds is prohibited; the whole discussion is academic.

    As for your other point "the directive I've quoted is as fictitious as most directives.", I think you're either being somewhat disingenuous or simply cynical. Trust me, the directive in question is 2004/38/EC is far from 'fictitious'!

    Member States had until 30/06/2006 to adopt it into national law. While most States have indeed adopted and transposed it. There did/do remain several poor interpretations, for which the Commission initiated infringement proceedings in 2009. Directives in themselves are not binding in the same way Regulations are. They must be 'adopted' into national law and for that there is some flexibility for interpretation anyway to account for certain specific national conditions, but not distortion.

    When infringement proceedings are initiated, in most cases the issues are resolved before they get to court. Where they do reach court, the court decision is binding and the member States in question, or the Commission in certain cases, are obliged to adopt such decisions lest there be sanctions. There is plenty of case law on the ECJ/CoFI et al websites if you have the time to look! :)

    The difference with this directive (re-groupment of several former ones) for ordinary people and entities which it affects, is that as of 01/07/2006, individuals are able to rely on it directly as a recourse to enforce their rights where an infringement has occurred; whether or not it has been adopted correctly/adequately by the national authority concerned. This is a major difference as in the past, one had either to wait for its adoption by the State concerned are go through difficult, costly and lengthy national judicial routes. In fact, there is a specific agency with a web site www.solvit.eu that will assist individuals and eligible entities resolve any transgression or infringement of their rights therein.

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  • 193. At 11:52am on 23 Aug 2010, fine-cut wrote:

    A little more context. This time a quote from the 3rd Council of Europe country by country report. It is the official French government reply to concerns, voiced by the rapporteurs, about the treatment in France of minorities, in particular the Roms. A certain Sarkozy N. was minister of the interior at the time.

    "It follows that the legal concept of “minority” does not exist in French law, which does not mean that the specific characteristics of people’s identities are not recognised. The affirmation of one’s identity is a personal choice, not one based on criteria that can, a priori, be used to define a particular group.

    This approach safeguards the right of each individual to acknowledge cultural, historical, religious or philosophical traditions, and the right to turn one’s back on these traditions. Any defence of cultural specificity must go hand in hand with the right to reject the concept. France has always supported this view before international organisations, by highlighting the possible adverse effects of an overly rigid conception of the protection of minorities, in particular the attempt to lay down general criteria for membership of minorities or even carry out censuses of people belonging to these minorities."

    I have shown this text to French friends to see if they understand it better than I, after all, I freely admit I may be missing something. They could not.

    "Integration" is a two-way street. It is the mutual recognition of culture and it is the mutual acceptance - by the dominant culture as much as that of the minority - that during the process outlooks and ways of doing things may change on both sides.

    From this text from the French government, there is, clearly, only a one-way street. The individual is offered the choice not to be part of a minority. This is clearly absurd, because one does not choose to be born Rom or French or Martian for that matter. It therefore seems that the individual is at fault for choosing the wrong parents.

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  • 194. At 12:04pm on 23 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Humakemesick;

    "Some Roma may be citizens of a west European country ; but the majority as refered to in this blog do not ."

    The distinction between west European countries and east European countries ended with the end of the cold war and the incorporation of what we called east European countries into the EU. That was the whole point of the EU, to allow the free flow off goods and people within it. Now there are people who are flowing freely that some other people don't like. BTW, is Sarkozy planning to deport Roma who are indiginous to France along with those who moved freely into France? Is citizenship in an EU country dependent on having a piece of paper to prove it? Are some EU citizens more equal than others?

    The solution to France's social problem as Sarkozy and I presume many others see it is to ignore or circumvent the civil rights that were enacted into law with the EU treaties. This is a quintessentially European reaction to a problem, to ignore laws they agreed to but now don't like. Ignore the stability and growth pact in Maastrict when it is inconvenient to the exigencies of local politics. Ignore European obligations in the NATO mutual defense treaty when it is Europe which must send troops to fight those who attacked or would attack America and not the other way around. Ignore the rights guaranteed EU citizens to move freely because those that aren't liked are moving into your country. And every time it ends in disaster. The economic crisis in Europe that has no solution, the end of NATO and the UN as the result of American mistrust stemming from European betrayal, and now social and legal problems that are sure to arise from this bringing the entire EU legality into question. Europe thy name is hypocricy. What a contemptable society it is.

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  • 195. At 12:19pm on 23 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Imbecillus;

    "The US has integrated the black minorities very well... in PRISON.
    it's a sad verifiable fact, not an insult!"

    Many but hardly all Black Americans had a culture that in some respects wes similar to what is said about the Roma by Europeans. But the integration of Blacks into the mainstream of American society offers an alternative. The ENFORCED legal right to an equal opportunity for education, jobs, housing, and all other manner of public accomodation that brings blacks into the same culture as the rest of America or the likelihood of arrest and prison if the prior culture that is indifferent to the rights of others and the laws that protect them is not abandoned. It takes a long time and a lot of personal tragedies to change a society but America is making undeniable progress. The evidence for it is overwhelming, the election of a black as President is only one of countless pieces of evidence proving it. Europe is not making comparable progress. It doesn't even acknowledge that it has a serious problem and not just with the Roma. It wouldn't know where to begin to solve it. And the last thing it would do is learn from Ameican successes and failures in dealing with its own problem. The proof of that is its rediculous "constitution" if you can even call it a constitution. A pathetic clumsy uselessly incoherent parody of a real one. Every day Europe proves that it is an utterly stupid place deserving of nothing but contempt.

    "Shall we do the same in Europe?
    Throw the Gypsies in jail? Or educate them?"

    From what has been said here they are presumably not jailed for committing crimes. From what was made clear and pointedly so in the Deutche Welle broadcast about the education of Roma in Hungary in general and in Budapest School District 8 I cited to Threnodious several times, and undoubtedly similarly all over Europe they do not get an equal opportunity for education either. Their deliberate isolation is a perfect example of what the US Surpreme Court meant when it said in regard to segregated schools that seperate cannot be equal whether that segregation is by deliberate drawing of districts or by defacto seperation due to what neighborhoods people live in. No, it is clear Europe is not dealing with this or any other of its myriad ethnic problems. It prefers to cling to its existing prejudices and bigotry.

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  • 196. At 12:54pm on 23 Aug 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @ 186 Buzet23
    “I think you're mixing self confidence with an assumed air of culture, political correctness and civilisation, where it is PC to 'care' about anything and everything no matter the cost to you or your country……It is a shame that Sarko has latched onto this politically incorrect subject to boost his poll ratings and it is a shame that the political elite who consider themselves cultured and caring refuse to consider a solution to these problems….”
    Sorry to intervene friend. I think you are quite right to state that the self confidence and the political correctness are different things. I agree that the Bulgarian authorities are to be blamed that for the last 20 years they have done little to improve the living standards of our Roma people. (However, the problem is as old as the phenomenon “Gypsy people who moved from India to Europe in the middle Ages”). I remember that during the 50s, I mean under the previous Communist regime, all young gypsies here in Bulgaria, were forced to attend the local primary school, and I should say that the results were seemingly positive because many of them became later famous musicians, tradesmen, dealers, teachers, physicians, even army officers. At the same time, all Roma families took full advantages of the government dispositions aimed at improving the demographic growth (family allocations, easy access to credits necessary for home building, etc.) and the integration among the rest of the population in Bulgaria (deliberate scattering of the Roma communities and their “absorption” by the families inhabiting the same city, etc.). The results were good, which means that even the undemocratic, administrative measures, if applied for a long period of time, with the proper government financing and administering would be a successful solution in the long, complex, painful and unpleasant process of coexistence and intimacy of two different groups of people – the Christian Orthodoxies and the Roma people. However, it worked, at least until 1989. So that, technically, our authorities know how to act, provided the proper funds are available……for education, education and education of our gypsies.
    Secondly, I agree that the French president tries to make some political profit out of the present Roma case. He knows that the expatriation to Romania & Bulgaria of several hundreds of Gypsies is relatively an easy trick to do. As a matter of fact, both the Romanian and the Bulgarian governments did not make any objections (both countries are EU members and they are still believed to belong to the francophone world). What President Sarcosy, Frau Merkel, PM Cameron, PM Zapatero etc. cannot do in a COUPLE OF DAYS is the integration of millions of people legally and illegally coming from outside Europe (the migrants from Eastern Europe do not present SUCH big problems! The western authorities do expel our Gypsies but they “hold back” our physicians, engineers, artists, etc. who had successfully gone through the tests and the exams!)…
    If I can resume, the problem of the Bulgarian Roma is our own responsibility, and I guess the sooner the money comes from Brussels the better. Several hundreds of Bulgarian Roma will be brought back from France, Italy, Spain and Germany….if not in days, at least in months….And the BBC journalists will be forced to look at the Pakistani camps at the outskirts of London, Manchester and Bristol, at the suburb areas of Paris, Marseilles, Strasburg, Madrid, Roma (where one can easily smell the hashish and other herbs, listening to the typical rhythms of the raï and of other North African melodies etc.) in the search of other scapegoats the illegal immigration is continuing, in tens of thousands, to provide, free of charge, to old Europe,…..
    Regards
    P.S.: What a pity that our Russian fellow bloggers from the Smolensk forum can not take part in the discussion.

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  • 197. At 1:00pm on 23 Aug 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @ 191 Nik
    Welcome back brother.
    "Decebalus, the question with gipsies is not so much of education (since they do not want it so much as some people think) but of management."
    Management & education are equally necessary tools for solving the problem. (If you have enough time, please read my post @196).

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  • 198. At 1:14pm on 23 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #191

    Would that be the infamous 'Albanians' that You wrote so disparagingly of in previous contributions?

    Let us face it: What You know, believe & understand about the difficulties of 'minorities' extends only so far as Your estimation of poor little Greece getting done over by the nasty World!

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  • 199. At 1:16pm on 23 Aug 2010, Nik wrote:

    193. At 11:52am on 23 Aug 2010, fine-cut wrote:

    """This approach safeguards the right of each individual to acknowledge cultural, historical, religious or philosophical traditions, and the right to turn one’s back on these traditions. Any defence of cultural specificity must go hand in hand with the right to reject the concept. France has always supported this view before international organisations, by highlighting the possible adverse effects of an overly rigid conception of the protection of minorities, in particular the attempt to lay down general criteria for membership of minorities or even carry out censuses of people belonging to these minorities.""""

    For me the above French approach makes absolute sense: in France they do recognise the right of people to self-determinate themselves as members of a particular group but they do refuse people forming groups to ask extra rights, extra priviledges, money hand-outs or imposing upon others their perceptions or enjoying law exceptions on the basis of their cultural/tribal group particularities. 100% correct since all those thingies trasform society into a caste-based system. 100% natural for a country that refers to a "republic" and to "citizens" not to religions, cultures or other such thingies. If you are in France, no matter if citizen or citizen in the making, you have to behave first of all like a citizen and place this before all your tribal, religious or other habits. If you do not like this then you were never invited in the first place, the road of exit is always open and you are welcomed to suit yourself in other countries that are more caste-oriented where you can thrive as a minority. On top of that, the recognition of the right to define oneself as member of a particular social group goes hand in hand with the right to stop defining oneself as such.

    Said this, French society in practice is as much a caste society as elsewhere as whole regions are described as being "out of the republic" (i.e. belongining nominally to France but being a whole different state in reality).

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  • 200. At 1:45pm on 23 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #153 Anti_bigot

    I can only quote from my personal experience , moving from Britain to take up permanent residence in Italy . Have you first hand experience of going to live in another country than your own , or are you quoting from the book as read on a website ? I think you indicate the latter .
    You may own an aparment , cottage or large villa in Italy , but you still may be denied " Official Permission for Residence ". Residence in Italy is not the house you live in . For a foreigner you first have to apply for permission . If permission is granted , you take the document to your local community offices , to establish residence .

    I cannot speak for how it works in other countries . I expect all EU member states exercise differing regulations . I suspect I am right in saying that in all EU countries " Residence " is not just going there and telling the authorities . I doubt one will be granted " Residence " in any country if one is on social security . You have to prove that you are self supporting to be given permission to establish " Residence " in another country than your own .

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  • 201. At 2:02pm on 23 Aug 2010, Farlette wrote:

    First of all the French government should get illegal immigration under control more strictly. Deported people are coming back to France or other rich EU country soon so these actions are hopeless. If they don't have a chance to live there without permission and integration to local society, there will be no need of breaking human rights and driving them away later .

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  • 202. At 2:18pm on 23 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #195 MarcusAuraliusII

    Theory and reality are not the same . You are right that the EU has got a lot wrong and isn't going anywhere .

    When you write of educating people ; you can only do that if people are willing to be educated , that children will attend a school . In the case of the Roma , they don't want conventional education .

    I am certain that Roma who are resident French citizens will not be bothered or made to leave .

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  • 203. At 2:24pm on 23 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #192. At 11:51am on 23 Aug 2010, Anti_bigot,

    I would not dispute the various laws you quote as I've also looked through the various EU sites including the ECJ web site, what I do claim is that no matter what the law says most countries still selectively do not enforce the various rules and directives. Indeed some prefer to pay the fines rather than conform, which is why I'm always a bit sceptical about directives. It seems that the UK is probably the only country that does implement what it has signed up to, certainly that is also the impression of an MEP's secretary I know slightly.

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  • 204. At 2:59pm on 23 Aug 2010, Anti_bigot wrote:

    #200. At 1:45pm on 23 Aug 2010, Huaimek

    You're jumping to conclusions. I live in another EU State other than the one of which I am a national. I am now a permanent resident in the current State where I live, having been continuously resident here for more than 5 years. I have also lived in several others over the years. So I do speak from experience and I happen to know this area of EU law quite well.

    I can only assume you moved to Italy some years ago, when EU citizens still needed to go through various formalities in applying for residency and receive in time a 'permesso di soggiorno", as it used to be called in Italy; An ID card/paper was delivered by the "Questura" based upon your particular status, which was then used to establish official residency at the commune. 'Yes, Italy was one country I sojourned for a number of years too'. Even then it was a mere formality. In Belgium and France they used to be called "Carte de séjour"; which didn't even denote 'permission' (permis de séjour).

    But since then, Directive 2004/38/EC has come into force, EU citizens no are no longer required to obtain a so-called residence permit. Are you belligerently ignoring this fact? Even in Italy, as in other States, as a result of this the process is now simplified. You still need to register residency of course, but so do Italians moving from one part of Italy to another. An EU citizen now goes directly to the commune to register and normally receives upon request an attestation or certificate proving his/her residence or intention thereof. And that includes job seekers too fyi!

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  • 205. At 3:04pm on 23 Aug 2010, Nik wrote:

    For an absolutely non-violent and extremely civilised society like the Greek (unlike the British that retains much of its past barbarity - mind you, during holidays I spoke to 2 guys that had the bad chance to study in Sunderland and both were attacked by groups of English while being alone and for the sole reason of having opened their mouth to talk to the phone thus revealing their different accents, one of them was so badly hit that he needed hospitalisation though he was asked to walk himself in blood all the distance (of several kms) to the hospital while bleeding and with a swollen face since 1) no hospital car accepted to take him 2) no taxi driver accepted to take him...)... ... yes Greece is a good example of how other nationalities far in as long as integration is into account and yes Albanians are not faring very well, without this being a black label on every single of them of course, we just talk about general tedencies. You might as well trust the Italian records on the issue or perhaps even the British and American ones who have already whole archives on the Albanian immigration in Britain and US (2 societies which Albanians view as largely friendly by the way).

    So leave the "whatever" and tell us your opinion about gipsies. I am not going to enter in more of the above crap, nor will I accuse you for the immense barbarity and illiterateness of the English backwater social class. I have clearly explained my point of view that the issue of gipsies is not there for the last 10 years but for the last 1500 years and that it is not any issue of the host societies, be it France, Germany, Romania or Bulgaria but first of all of the gipsies themselves. If gipsies want it otherwise they will buy houses, work in stable jobs under monthly salaries, send their kids to school and will integrate in the local societies even if the locals do not want so (and that is not the case anywhere in Europe). But being a gipsy is a way of life. And it being so different naturally brings friction. Gipsies are NOT a social problem. They are a parallel society that occasionally becomes a social nuissance in a very localised manner on those occasions their numbers rise in a specific place. That is all. If I took the same lifestyle, sooner or later I would have the same friction with locals, that is arithmetic-level mathematics, not rocket science.

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  • 206. At 4:30pm on 23 Aug 2010, ghostofsichuan wrote:

    I have read articles of arrests and hanging of Gypsies from the 1700's in London. Seems to be an issue that has lasted over centuries. A crime is a crime but a lifestyle is a lifestyle and sometimes they can be the same. Modern society has no need for the "tinkerer" except on e-bay. We have many classes of criminals in society, we tend to spend our attention on those criminals of the lower classes...have very little success with sentencing those of the upper classes. There seems to be some relationship between difficult economic conditions and attention given to Gypsies.

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  • 207. At 4:30pm on 23 Aug 2010, Lord_P wrote:

    Can't beat those extremely non violent and civillised Greek riots eh Nik?
    The thing I don't understand about gypsies is they usually tend to state it's their right to live in no fixed place and be free of the usual taxation system etc. but then establish permanent camps from which they don't move one year to the next.

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  • 208. At 4:53pm on 23 Aug 2010, bobbgooduk wrote:

    I've just returned from a week's holiday in France. Travelling on the motorway, we saw a huge pall of smoke drifting across the carriageway ahead. When we rounded the bend, we looked to the right and saw the source of the smoke - not a forest fire or burning factory but a bonfire burning in the middle of a VAST encampment of caravans, surrounded by junk and debris. Quite a shock to see so many caravans together, and I can imagine that many of the French feel agrieved by the intrusion.

    I am a British national who makes use of his right to work in another EU country - indeed I think of myself as European rather than British - and so I am bound to say that I am in favour of the freedom of domicile and employment enshrined in the various EU treaties. Having expressed my partisanship, however, I find it difficult to expect a host nation to have to tolerate such an intrusion into their local communities in terms of being expected to accommodate such a vastly different culture and lifestyle with no apparent "pay-back" to the local community. I certainly would not want such a camp as I saw last week in Burgundy near my home. Is it wrong to expect conformity to local mores? Shouldn't people travelling abroad seek to integrate and live the life there?

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  • 209. At 5:22pm on 23 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #205

    WOW!

    Those 2 wouldn't be related to the other 2 that You previously told us all of who were beaten up in England for other incredibly illogical reasons!?

    It must be tough out there... being a Greek tourist, especially in the UK!

    Now if You could just relate the experiences of the hundreds if not thousands of foreign tourists who were unfortunate enough to be trapped in their hotels, apartments etc. during various riots in "..non-violent.." Greece this Summer (to say nothing of those who found their holidays cancelled or shut-down early due to Greece's very unfortunate economic difficulties) it would sort of bring a bit of balance to what is Your usual utter lack of it!

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  • 210. At 7:10pm on 23 Aug 2010, Decebalus wrote:

    ? What integration of Blacks into the mainstream of American society?
    What are you talking about?

    More than HALF of all prisoners in the United States are black. That is NOT called INTEGRATION its called INCARCERATION. Blacks make only 12% of the US population. That makes it 10 TIMES more likely to be arrested and incarcerated than whites. 10 TIMES!!!

    Incarcerating the Afro-Americans is cheaper than educating them, providing medical care and jobs. Look at how the US Government helped the Hurricane KATRINA black survivors. Reverend Jesse Jackson and millions of people claimed that racism was a factor in the slow government response, another disaster!

    The percentage of Gypsies in Eastern Europe is nearly as 10% but we don't incarcerate them or populate 50% of our Prisons with Gypsies.

    Most blacks in Southern States are still discriminated and treated worst than gypsies treated in Communist Romania of Ceausescu.

    INCARCERATION or Deportation is not a solution,
    The only solution is FREE EDUCATION and FREE Medical Care!

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  • 211. At 7:16pm on 23 Aug 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:

    205. At 3:04pm on 23 Aug 2010, Nik wrote:


    "For an absolutely non-violent and extremely civilised society like the Greek (unlike the British that retains much of its past barbarity - mind you, during holidays I spoke to 2 guys that had the bad chance to study in Sunderland and both were attacked by groups of English while being alone and for the sole reason of having opened their mouth to talk to the phone thus revealing their different accents, one of them was so badly hit that he needed hospitalisation though he was asked to walk himself in blood all the distance (of several kms) to the hospital while bleeding and with a swollen face since 1) no hospital car accepted to take him 2) no taxi driver accepted to take him...)... ...


    EUpris: There are undoubtedly some horrible people in England. I do not know Sunderland. Judging by what goes on around here, I do believe they were attacked for being foreign. I don't believe they got no help from the ambulance service. I don't believe no taxi driver would take them.

    We have lots of disgusting thugs in the UK.

    On the continent, they put them into police uniforms.

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  • 212. At 7:24pm on 23 Aug 2010, Jukka Rohila wrote:

    To fine-cut (193):

    I have to disagree with you. Nationality in western Europe has largely become a matter of choice for an individual as states and cultures have expanded and extended their definitions on who can be part of their nationality and nation. For example race, ethnicity and religion have become largely irrelevant as defining characters of a nation. More and more we define nations and nationality via language, culture, values and general lifestyle that people have, and these are all things that an individual can choose to part take, there no restrictions.

    In my honest opinion, multiculturalism inside European societies is a road that is dead and goes to nowhere. We don't need minorities in our societies, having minorities only creates divisions and tensions inside a society, what we need to do is to assimilate minorities to become part of the majority: I don't want to have a Somali minority in Finland, but I have nothing against Finns that are black, Muslim and have Somali background. The same is true with gypsies.

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  • 213. At 7:31pm on 23 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #201. At 2:02pm on 23 Aug 2010, Farlette wrote:

    "First of all the French government should get illegal immigration under control more strictly. Deported people are coming back to France or other rich EU country soon so these actions are hopeless. If they don't have a chance to live there without permission and integration to local society, there will be no need of breaking human rights and driving them away later ."

    Please explain why anyone should have a right to live in another country, or indeed squat in your house as that is the same. Nobody has a right to invade without permission and without conforming to the laws of the country, or your permission if it's your house they are not welcome.

    Just why do you expect any country/Person to give that permission, being sufficiently naive to be a PC cultural aware fool?

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  • 214. At 8:32pm on 23 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #205. At 3:04pm on 23 Aug 2010, Nik,

    What utter rubbish and bulls**t, I could also say I know people who live in Greece and have suffered by the uncivilised nature of your so called civilised country, is it true, maybe, maybe not, but I do know English living in Greece who have encountered the incredible inherent prejudice that does exist outside the holiday venues where all smile and take your money. Knowing also a few friends from the far North of England around the Newcastle and Middlesbrough areas all I can say is that your friends mouthed off to the wrong people, if that is the calibre of your friends and they speak like you, advise them not to go to the UK as they will not be welcome, you neither. Those area are very friendly and do help people in need, unlike Greece it seems from what I've heard!

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  • 215. At 9:51pm on 23 Aug 2010, torpare wrote:

    @96. MarcusAureliusII wrote:
    "Europe proves every time it lets criminals off with a slap on the wrist or doesn't punish them at all that it is a collection of failed states. Where there is no law there is no civilized society. The failure of society to maintain order and respect for the law by demonstrating the power of the law does not justify racism. There is good reason to hold Europe in contempt. This is one of them. And then Europeans have the audacity to condemn American for putting its criminals in prison and executing the worst of them. What a moronic bunch Europeans are as a group".

    Aha! So there we have it (not for the first time). Here in all its repulsiveness is the primitive American fixation on retributive justice, the legacy of the pilgrim fathers, obsessed with sin and punishment: "as ye sow, so shall ye reap..." It's the ethos of the Old Testament "an eye for an eye...", not of the New.

    So American courts hand down sentences adding up not just to a single human lifespan but more than one. In American prisons are inmates who spend years in solitary, while others spend years on Death Row before eventually being despatched. Capital punishment remains the norm in most states, long after having been rejected as barbaric in what are according to MAII less "civilised" European countries: a peculiar definition indeed of "civilised". And perish the thought that American justice might ever miscarry and wrongly condemn to die anyone unjustly accused!

    "Moronic", coming on top of this, is priceless!

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  • 216. At 11:56pm on 23 Aug 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    198 cool_brush_work

    Would that be the infamous 'Albanians' that You wrote so disparagingly of in previous contributions?

    I think they are them...just to mention some:

    today a 11-year-old Bulgarian girl raped and murdered (thrown into a well alive) in Greece by an Albanian

    or

    A week ago at the Greek minority speaking city of Himara in Albania Gumës Aristotle is been Killed because he spoke Greek. He had a fight after Albanians heard him speaking Greek. After that he went to the police station to protest and they said them that here is Albania not Greece...hours later 7 of them search for him and killed him with a car by trampling on his body several times

    and the Albanians authorities & news cared only about the tourism issue

    and the fact that the people of their city as a protest close the road for some hours

    Here how the

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]People of Himara peacefully protested

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  • 217. At 11:57pm on 23 Aug 2010, democracythreat wrote:

    This blog is a fascinating microcosm of European parochialism.

    The thing to take away, more than anything else, is the sheer variety of ignorance regarding human rights laws.

    What this comes down to, in my view, is the continental "education" being professed by so many here as the cure for societies ills.

    Not civic freedoms, not political emancipation. But "education". And what does that mean, in Europe? It means conformity. It means learning how to obey authority, and conform to class expectations. It means learning your place.

    It doesn't mean learning about new ideas, nor does it mean innovation. It has nothing to do with modern law, and most of all it has absolutely nothing to do with challenging outdated ideas.

    A European education means learning you place in society, and learning whom you must obey, and whom you may persecute freely.

    What a detestable and backward world view is represented by some of the folks here. And they laugh at others, secure in the strength of their hideous, cowardly fascism.

    The EU has brought back the SS marching through the streets in Estonia and Latvia, it has brought back mainstream right wing nationalism throughout france and germany, and now Brussels is earning its pay by turning yet another blind eye to gross human rights abuses by member states.

    The EU commissariat, just as much as the hate fueled fascists who believe their lives will be better if only they can find someone to persecute, fills me with loathing and disgust.

    The class system is Europe is pervasive and just plain ridiculous. The soviets put a man in space and the Americans put a man on the moon. All Europe can do is watch, and comment on who the achievers father was, and whether he was quite the correct breed.

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  • 218. At 01:02am on 24 Aug 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    200 Huaimek & 204 Anti_bigot

    Residence in Italy is the house you live in? TRUE

    You need a Permission for Residence = 'permesso di soggiorno'...once given by the police?...No more!

    For the very first 3 months you need nothing but after the 3rd month you need to apply for a residence ='attestazione di regolarità di soggiorno'

    so you take your documents...to your local community offices (Ufficio Anagrafe), to establish residence.

    So as EMPLOYEE you need to have with you:

    1) * Last paycheck
    * INPS bulletins for housework
    * Employer declaration
    2) Passport or your identity card

    for SELF-EMPLOYMENT:

    1) Passport or your identity card
    2) Registration Chamber of Commerce etc.
    3) Income Statement etc.

    for STUDENTS:

    1) certification from the university for your matriculation
    2) health insurance for at least 1 year
    3) You have to prove that you are self supporting
    4) Passport or your identity card

    jobless:

    1) Passport or your identity card
    2) health insurance for at least 1 year
    3) You have to prove that you are self supporting to be given permission to establish " Residence" by following some parametrs..


    After 5 years of regular registration you recieve permanent residence...and yes all this because of the Directive 2004/38/EC in vigor in Italy from 2007...
    'Gazzetta Ufficiale n. 72 del 27 marzo 2007'

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  • 219. At 01:03am on 24 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    dt;

    "The EU has brought back the SS marching through the streets in Estonia and Latvia"

    You left out Belfast.

    Parochial hardly begins to describe it. Just listen to that gaggle. Gypsies this, Albanians that, Walloons this, Flemish that, French this, Slovaks that. And none of them thinks they have a problem, it's always the other guy who has the problem. That's the problem, they don't know they have one, a big one. Europe is so racist it doesn't even know what the word means.

    Hu;

    Compulsory education is the law in just about every civilized society, usually until about age 16. If children don't attend school there are truancy laws. If parents won't obey the laws by sending their children to school and providing other necessary parental care for them then the law allows the state to take custody over them. It doesn't matter though what the law is if the state won't enforce it. That's the problem Arizona and the much of the rest of the US is having with the Obama adminstration, it won't enforce the border control laws. And you just saw what the states did and how the Obama administration reacted. What kind of democracy is it when the people have no power over the government? In Europe there is no democracy, not in any real sense.

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  • 220. At 03:59am on 24 Aug 2010, democracythreat wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 221. At 04:18am on 24 Aug 2010, democracythreat wrote:

    Buzet23 wrote:
    "Please explain why anyone should have a right to live in another country, or indeed squat in your house as that is the same. Nobody has a right to invade without permission and without conforming to the laws of the country, or your permission if it's your house they are not welcome."

    Behold the curse of fascism: it causes the worst kind of fools to become deluded and believe they are capable of sensible statements.

    Seriously, consider the logic of what this person is claiming. They claim a country is like a house: owned as private and not public property. The world view here is that the owners of the country are entitled to cut the country off from everyone visitor.

    Now leaving aside the hubris that implies this person is one of the owners (I'll bet my hat it rents) of the country, let us turn to the very obvious fact that the UK is an ISLAND MARITIME NATION. Or, put another way, the people of this island object to the freedom of the high seas which allowed the english to travel the globe, building empire and trade and so on and so forth. This person wants to shut down immigration, and cut england off from the rest of the world.

    Do you think this person might reconsider, if they were given the chance? 70 million folks in Engerland, and NO IMPORTS OF FOOD OR FUEL. No sailors coming or going. No trade. No human exchange.

    Of course, the argument is a complete nonsense. It's a poor argument from a drunken teenager with a learning disability. But that is what you get, with fascism. That is the great attraction of hate politics. You can gather together the very slowest and dimmest folks in one place, the folks who own nothing and most likely never will unless they inherit it, and tell them that they are the rightful heirs of the land, and that they are blessed if they hate a weak minority. And of course, they will run with that idea. All of a sudden, folks who have just enough wits to say nothing most of the time forget themselves, and start on with the chanting hate and the persecution of those deemed weak enough and defenseless enough by the political overlords.

    The thing which most folks forget about fascism is the cowardice and the ignorance of its adherents.

    All those jewish children who were gassed and starved and beaten by soldiers in fine uniforms, it speaks only of the very lowest quality of human beings. Cowards. Idiots. These were the people who staffed the third reich. Once they faced a real enemy, and could no longer celebrate their pride by killing defenseless women and children, they capitulated and gave up with whimpering and self pity that goes on to this very day.

    Make no mistake, when you find someone who has the courage to mount a case against the Roma, you've found a human being with very little mercy, compassion or understanding. You've found yourself a coward and a bully.

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  • 222. At 04:20am on 24 Aug 2010, democracythreat wrote:

    I wish the moderators would stop pretending to be a legitimate cost to the taxpayer.

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  • 223. At 04:36am on 24 Aug 2010, Derska wrote:

    MarcusAurelius, I have some questions for you:
    1. would you live next to a Gypsy camp
    2. do you think Gypsies should just immigrate to US
    3. can a populatopn of 300 000 000 absorb 1-2 million Gypsies
    4. would the Gypsies live better in US
    5. would Americans agree to take them
    6. is hatred based on fear of the known, or the unknown
    Thank you.

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  • 224. At 05:37am on 24 Aug 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    Is Elvis Presley, Charles Chaplin of Roma ancestry? How knows...Take a look at this page who says there are people who are/were Roma or have/had Romany ancestry...

    Famous Gypsies


    ...as well as...

    Michael Caine
    Bob Hoskins
    Yul Brynner

    and so on...

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  • 225. At 06:11am on 24 Aug 2010, Decebalus wrote:

    ? What integration of Blacks into the mainstream of American society?
    What are you talking about?

    More than HALF of all prisoners in the United States are black. That is NOT called INTEGRATION its called INCARCERATION. Blacks make only 12% of the US population. That makes it 10 TIMES more likely to be arrested and incarcerated than whites. 10 TIMES!!!

    Incarcerating the Afro-Americans is cheaper than educating them, providing medical care and jobs. Look at how the US Government helped the Hurricane KATRINA black survivors. Reverend Jesse Jackson and millions of people claimed that racism was a factor in the slow government response, another disaster!

    The percentage of Gypsies in Eastern Europe is nearly as 10% but we don't incarcerate them or populate 50% of our Prisons with Gypsies.

    Most blacks in Southern States are still discriminated and treated worst than gypsies treated in Communist Romania of Ceausescu.

    INCARCERATION or Deportation is not a solution,
    The only solution is FREE EDUCATION and FREE Medical Care!

    ___________________

    A note to my previous comment

    CURRENT U.S. DEATH ROW POPULATION BY RACE

    BLACK 41.6%
    LATINO 11.6%
    WHITE 44.4%

    INCARCERATION and EXTERMINATION

    torpare wrote: "Here in all its repulsiveness is the primitive American fixation on retributive justice, the legacy of the pilgrim fathers, obsessed with sin and punishment…It's the ethos of the Old Testament "an eye for an eye...", not of the New."

    Yes, A primitive BARBARIC Extermination System, IN GOD WE TRUST!, such a hypocrisy and disgrace.

    I'll rather be a Gypsy in Europe, being paid 300 euro by the French and deported back to Bulgaria…big deal!

    Than being a Coloured Man discriminated in the US, risking Incarceration and Extermination, (10 times more likely than whites) ending on the Deth Row, just because its cheaper to be Incarcerated, exterminated than being Educated.

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  • 226. At 06:22am on 24 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Ellinas

    Disappointing: I had expected a lot better from You.

    Whether 'albanian', 'roma', english', or even the wondrous 'greek' every Individual is entitled to the same respect & protection as well as being the subject of the Law.

    Because some 'roma' commit crime, because some 'english' commit crime, because some 'albanian' commit crime (I'll stop there - - in deference to Your friend Nik...) gives no one the right to label entire Peoples as crooks and worse than crooks (though Nik did do that on a previous Blog).

    You come close at #216 to at least condoning the 'labelling' though it may be You meant only to give examples of the worst sorts of behaviour by some from among that People.

    Then I read #224 and I'm now unsure are You with Nik in attempting to brand whole groups whilst trying to appear reasonable? Or have You at least realised such harsh attitudes to particular communities cannot be sustained by any logical argument (especially when there are exploited women & children in those groups)?

    Though it is irksome for me to admit: Surely the arguments put forward by DemocThreat & others who suggest it is for EUropean society to address these issues in a civilised & humane manner that is the right course of action.

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  • 227. At 06:32am on 24 Aug 2010, torpare wrote:

    @33. MarcusAureliusII

    There is no such thing as a "European culture of exclusion": it's a figment of your fevered imagination.

    It's as well a preposterous generalisation. In all or most European countries there are people who dislike immigrants. So are there in America. There are also, as in America, plenty of people who have no such prejudices.

    "Jews were once treated the same way in Europe and in some places probably still are." Jews were, as a matter of fact, treated even worse at certain times in certain places in Europe. It's entirely in character that you should just simplistically and prejudicially assume that today they "probably" still are.

    I could just as easily write:- "Negroes were once routinely lynched in America and in some places probably still are", which would be just about as well-supported and well-merited an assertion as yours.

    Any opinion reflecting such a biased outlook as does yours automatically discredits itself - you ought to keep that in mind.

    "Americans have evolved past this". As you have just convincingly demonstrated (again!), Americans haven't "evolved past" anything of the kind.


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  • 228. At 06:59am on 24 Aug 2010, Decebalus wrote:

    The 'United Stations' people should really focus their attention towards their own 'Gypsies' 'Coloured' or other nasty names they use to describe them.

    And Mr Half Black Obama is just a puppet president elected as a last minute antidote, by the iPhone fanboy generation, and by the coloured inmates voting from jail. The only achievement for the Obama family was a special Sunday shopping trip in Paris (Sunday when all shops are closed) with President Sarkozy as a Doorman.

    The 'Coloured' issue in the USandA is 100 times more inhuman than our European 'Gypsy' issue.

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  • 229. At 07:05am on 24 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #204 Anti_Bigot

    Thanks , I am incredulous how things have changed . Yes, I went to live in Italy in the 1990s . The Questura , crowded with Chinese , was unbelievably hostile and fearsome . One would go to the Commune at say 11:30am to find everyone wearing overcoats ready to go home ; someone would say , we are too busy now come back next week . I happened to know that an older woman would be there on her own in the afternoon .
    I used to go back then and she would do whatever I needed immediately .

    What I do wonder is how people fare for the income angle . I cannot immagine that any foreigner can claim social security benefit .
    Are they able to sign on for national health .

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  • 230. At 08:11am on 24 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #212 Jukka Rohila ,

    For a change I agree with you that we don't want multiculturism in Europe . However assimilation of non ethnic peoples is easier said than done . I share your view with regarding your community in Finland . I have regularly stay with friends in Notting Hill Gate , London . I am always amazed at the affluent multiracial crowd in the Portobello Market . I am so pleased to see people of many races and colours who are all prospering and integrating in London .

    The problem is those who do not want to educate , upgrade , conform and integrate into the society of the country in which they choose to live .
    Short of some sort of enforcement , as somebody suggested had taken place in Bulgaria , some people are never going to integrate or be assimilated into the host country's society .

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  • 231. At 08:56am on 24 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #221. At 04:18am on 24 Aug 2010, democracythreat,

    Behold the curse of communism, your delusional rant about fascism shows you to be no different to the hard left communists who created the USSR and who believed, naively, that the party is omnipotent and owns everything, humans, property, land etc. In fact as we all know there is little difference between fascism and communism, they are the same monster with different heads, that's all. Which or what are you?

    Your userid is democracy threat and your rant in post #221 shows you to be just that. Do you understand so little about all animals on this planet that you think being territorial is not normal, the human animal is no different so why expect people to not be territorial. I will repeat, nobody has the right to enter someone else's territory without permission, whether that be a house, land or country. We have a form of civilisation and that is one of the cornerstones of it, and being assured of that helps avoid the wars and clashes of the past. As part of our form of civilisation we have to conform to certain standards or norms as represented in our laws. If we don't like them then we try hopefully to use democracy to change them. What we, the vast majority, don't do is go native and wander around the land, abusing hospitality, thieving, ignoring laws and ordinances etc and claiming it is our right to be little better than cavemen and that others should pay for it.

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  • 232. At 09:35am on 24 Aug 2010, ABDELKADER EL HAMDAOUI wrote:

    These people should be exported to Canada and the United States especially to California where they will be well protected by the ACLU and live happily ever after. Anyhow, it is refreshing to see that finally we have a leader in Europe who are standing up and doing what the people want done. Not despotic politicians like Nancy Pelosi and Mary Robinson and Roberta Achtenberg President Clinton appointed culprit who forced mortgage officers to bend and break rules to provide shaky mortgages to people who can’t cope with upfront down payments and regular monthly payments and ended up bankrupting half the world and in doing so made poor people even poorer.

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  • 233. At 09:40am on 24 Aug 2010, Nik wrote:

    231. At 08:56am on 24 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
    #221. At 04:18am on 24 Aug 2010, democracythreat,

    """Do you understand so little about all animals on this planet that you think being territorial is not normal, the human animal is no different so why expect people to not be territorial."""

    Correct. To my understanding, pretty much the totality of mammals, serpents and in general most of the vertebrates are fanatically territorial and humans are no exception to that. Any social system that goes against that is of course unnatural and mathematically ends up in violence.

    """Behold the curse of communism, your delusional rant about fascism shows you to be no different to the hard left communists who created the USSR and who believed, naively, that the party is omnipotent and owns everything, humans, property, land etc. In fact as we all know there is little difference between fascism and communism, they are the same monster with different heads, that's all. Which or what are you?"""

    Half-correct. You forget that capitalism like communism and fascism has also the same roots - precursor and creator of the latter two - and had the same funding centers and is the same as oppressive, violent and artificial. For those that look up to capitalism for a more "natural" system based on the axiom property they are deluded: capitalism does not recognise the value of property but simply uses it as a justification. The end of the tunnel of capitalims is oligopolies and monopolies, a tiny overulling class followed by a few small proprietors followed by a mass of landless plebians below. Remember, owning an appartment or a car is no real property, only land is such.

    """As part of our form of civilisation we have to conform to certain standards or norms as represented in our laws. If we don't like them then we try hopefully to use democracy to change them. What we, the vast majority, don't do is go native and wander around the land, abusing hospitality, thieving, ignoring laws and ordinances etc and claiming it is our right to be little better than cavemen and that others should pay for it."""

    Correct. But then at the end of the day one must not overinflate the case. Gipsies are a nuissance (and that only occasionally, when they concentrate their numbers here or there) rather than a social danger. There are far bigger social dangers than them.

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  • 234. At 09:40am on 24 Aug 2010, torpare wrote:

    Reading right through this blog leaves the reader with the dispiriting feeling that there's no solution to this problem. The noises coming from off-stage ("Stage Right" perhaps?) are just an irritating distraction: America's experience, especially when relayed through a foghorn as the vehicle for mindless indiscriminate denigration of all things European, in fact offers us no solutions - not least for the selfsame reason so boringly being harped upon by the gentleman concerned:- that our two societies are radically different both in their history and their cultures (btw Margaret Howard's choice of nickname for same, "Homer Simpson", made my day).

    However if the problem's not addressed it can only get worse so really there isn't much choice but to try to tackle it, constructively. For my money the best place to start is where democracythreat #20, Mechat #39 and Stanilic #47 do: at least their hearts are in the right place. Europeans can scarcely claim to see themselves (whether believers or not) as upholders of christian values and at the same time collectively spurn the most fundamental of Christ's teachings, like "love thy neighbour". It may be (hell, it is!) often difficult but we still have to try or we're all hypocrites.

    But it can't stop there:- there's no sense in denying that the Roma are causing serious social problems to their host communities, whilst at the same time themselves suffering from if anything even more serious social problems, and that the anti-social behaviour of a significant proportion of them justifiably provokes a hostile reaction on the part of their victims. Who can say which is cause and which is effect but the point, surely, is that to start by tackling the Roma communities' own social problems (including combating their largely self-imposed segregation from the host-communities) would if it succeeded go a long way towards ameliorating the problems they cause others. This approach is far from easy and it takes time and money, but where it's been persisted-with for long enough it has shown good results I believe.

    What's needed, I suggest - echoing the suggestion @generalissimo2 #196, based (unlike my own) upon actual experience in Bulgaria under its then-communist authorities - is that the EU Commission put forward for approval by the Council of Ministers a suitably massive effort to help the most-affected member-countries (Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary (?), Slovakia (?)) to get to grips with the problem themselves, within their own borders. That means generous but well-directed financial help first and foremost, but other forms of help (for example with social welfare programmes) as well. The chief danger though - to be avoided at all costs - would be for this to be perceived by those countries' indigenous populations as succumbing to blackmail, and cause them to become even more bitterly cynical about the Roma than they already are (to the point where ethnic tensions became explosive). There would be an extremely tricky tightrope needing to be walked, calling for the greatest possible political skill, and the most unforgivable mistake would be to just throw money at the problem without considering the feelings of the rest of the population, in regions (don't let's forget) that are among Europe's least-developed whose indigenous populations are themselves in need of economic assistance.

    Surely though, no society can call itself civilised which doesn't permit minorities NOT to conform - provided that by doing so they don't break the law of the land and don't encroach on other peoples' rights. Unfortunately (generalizing) it seems to be in exactly those respects that all too many Roma have transgressed, making themselves their own worst enemies. But we have to start somewhere: in every society there are "outsiders" who have chosen that role themselves because they prefer it and they do not forfeit, just because they don't choose to conform with the social conventions of the majority, their right to be treated with as much humanity and toleration, under the law, as any other members of society. It has after all been just by not being bound by "our" artistic conventions that "Gypsies" (as they've long been known in English) have been able to produce their unique art - for instance flamenco and the output of the sublime, inimitable, Django.

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  • 235. At 10:10am on 24 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #234. At 09:40am on 24 Aug 2010, torpare,

    Just a small comment, not so far from where I live in Belgium is a village called Liberchies which has a large Gypsy community, they are integrated and cause no local problems and indeed have an annual Django which is well known throughout the region and well attended and wikipedia says this about it - Every year in May the Django Reinhardt Jazz Festival takes place in Liberchies, Django Reinhardt's birth village.

    One has to ask why it is possible for some to conform and integrate and others not, the use of positive discrimination methods like throwing money at the problem of those who do not conform will never work as has been shown elsewhere. They simply alienate the majority who feel that it is they who are being discriminated against because they are law abiding and seemingly normal.

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  • 236. At 10:15am on 24 Aug 2010, torpare wrote:

    @193 fine-cut wrote:
    "From this text from the French government, there is, clearly, only a one-way street. The individual is offered the choice not to be part of a minority. This is clearly absurd, because one does not choose to be born Rom or French or Martian for that matter. It therefore seems that the individual is at fault for choosing the wrong parents".

    Fine-cut, you've got yourself in a muddle here. In one breath you're talking about cultural assimilation and in the next about ethnicity. They are two different things notwithstanding they can be closely-linked. Cultural assimilation can (and usually does) take place regardless of a person's ethnicity - or religion come to that. Would anyone deny that devout Jews (of Reform affiliation at least, not the extreme Orthodox) have over the past two centuries or so become entirely assimilated culturally into all Western European societies? Yet they have remained, by their own choice, ethnically and religiously jewish - and proud to be so.

    A key feature of the French doctrine, it seems to me, is that it emphasises the right of individuals NOT to be confined within the boundaries of what their own cultural group chooses to regard as "allowable" (for example, of muslim girls NOT to be forced to marry against their own personal inclinations), but instead to be free to choose their own path whichever it may be. It seems to me that that is where the French doctrine is right and "multi-culturalism" plain wrong.

    @199 Nik wrote:
    "For me the above French approach makes absolute sense".
    For once (to my astonishment) I find myself in complete agreement with Nik, who accurately describes the French approach (whilst fine-cut has misunderstood and misrepresented it imo).

    I'm no Sarkozy fan but anyone who aspires to lead the French has his work cut out and has my admiration ... grudging, but nonetheless. It must be like "trying to herd cats" ...(I'm a cat-lover btw). Even the ineffable de Gaulle (whom Churchill described as "thinking he was Joan of Arc") couldn't pull it off for long.

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  • 237. At 11:21am on 24 Aug 2010, letty wrote:

    it's not because i'm French , i agree with the french president......
    We cried out so loud he was fascist, we've lost our force and energy....
    We should learn from our mistakes, who really do that???
    Who really remember all facts of the second world war......my grand mother does and that's real. So remember....please
    one bad french doesn't make all french bad
    one bad rom doesn't make all rom bad
    one bad apple doesn't make the apple tree bad

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  • 238. At 11:40am on 24 Aug 2010, Nik wrote:

    Letty, have you ever met a Roma in your life? If yes what was the minimum distance you approached (as measured in meters).

    I again insist, Roma are not a social problem but merely become a social nuissance in the localities where they tend to concentrate in large numbers. They are a parallel society living on the fringes of the host society not offering a lot but not also asking a lot either. Love them or hate them they are certainly not any major problem. Over-mentioning them is deflecting the discussion into such a side issue to avoid dealing with the real problems.

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  • 239. At 11:57am on 24 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    torpor;

    "@33. MarcusAureliusII

    There is no such thing as a "European culture of exclusion": it's a figment of your fevered imagination."

    Denial is not a river in Africa. The refusal to see what is staring you in the face is the surest sign the problems will only get worse. What's more this same problem is at the heart of many of the wars Europe has fought over the centuries and especially in the 20th century. The notion that making it economically disadvantageous to continue this mutual racial and ethnic hatred through the mechanism of the EU will somehow cure it is one more European fantasy that will never work.

    First you say Europe doesn't have this problem, then you say America has it too. Even if it were true that America remains a racist society and is not changing, that does not affect Europe's situation. That argument is just a way to rationalize what Europeans know their society is by pointing to someone else whom they'd like to think has the same problem. More European irrational illogic.

    I stick with my observations, Europe never changes, never learns, will never get itself out of its perpetual state of dire trouble. It likes what it is. I on the other hand seeing it from an entirely different perspective detest it.

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  • 240. At 12:05pm on 24 Aug 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @ 231 Buzet23
    “We have a form of civilisation and that is one of the cornerstones of it, and being assured of that helps avoid the wars and clashes of the past. As part of our form of civilisation we have to conform to certain standards or norms as represented in our laws. If we don't like them then we try hopefully to use democracy to change them.”
    Sorry to intervene again. I follow carefully the discussion, and I found, for myself, that my point of view seemingly is much closer to yours and to that of our fellow blogger “threnodio_II”. As a matter of fact, I must agree that the basic argument you advanced, if correctly interpreted and applied should guarantee relative peace & prosperity to old Europe, at least to the member states of the EU. However, in real life, things are quite different. The gap between rich and poor, educated and illiterate, as well as the evident differences in the living standards and in the social organization of the said countries are among the main reasons for the apparent incompatibility of some social groups that are “condemned” to share the same territory, to abide with the same laws, to respect the national traditions of the majority, etc.
    We started the discussion about the Bulgarian & Romanian Roma people, and, as I posted earlier, it is first of all our responsibility, out duty to provide for the necessary conditions for those people in order to make them better prepared to live among us, and consequently to live abroad, within the EU borders.
    What I could not quite understand was the big noise over the Roma case in France, which seemingly is limited to several hundreds of people (who can easily be repatriated to Sofia & Bucharest in days). At the same time, the even more difficult, the ever lasting problem of the millions of North African immigrants in France, Spain, Italy, Belgium, remained somehow shadowed by it, and the discussion slipped into a pure legal debate about the proper authority the French used for the expelling of people who had European identity cards/passports. We simply deviated from the main discussion, and seemingly refused to see the core of the phenomenon.
    Regards from Sofia

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  • 241. At 12:06pm on 24 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    lefty;

    "We should learn from our mistakes, who really do that???
    Who really remember all facts of the second world war"

    You'd do far better to learn from the mistakes of the first World War. All of them. Why you got into it. How you settled it. How that led to the second world war. And the terrible price France and the rest of Europe paid for its mistakes. The refusal to learn that brutal repression at home and military aggression and expansion abroad by tyrannical nations must be stemmed before it can become an overwhelming military power that presents an overwhelming threat is one lesson. Hatred of "the other" because of differences in race, religion, and ethnicity is another. Before the rise of Hitler, France was more antisemitic than Germany. Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, prove that France learned nothing. I lived in France for nearly two years. I came to know France and the French people by living among them, watching them, studying them. I am hardly surprised at what they have not learned. Like other Europeans they have not changed.

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  • 242. At 12:22pm on 24 Aug 2010, Decebalus wrote:

    well well well, in the Southern States, millions of White Americans live in mobile homes or trailers in trailer parks.

    They are indeed discriminated and considered like Gypsies, but they are not called gypsies there, rather called Trailer-trash, White-trash, Rednecks eating roadkill and 'food stamps' benefits.

    So it looks like no society likes the 'traveler' gypsy culture, even if the travelers are white!

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  • 243. At 12:34pm on 24 Aug 2010, Atomic_Mash wrote:

    228. At 06:59am on 24 Aug 2010, Decebalus wrote:

    The 'Coloured' issue in the USandA is 100 times more inhuman than our European 'Gypsy' issue.

    ----
    You obviously have no clue what you're talking about.
    If you want to talk about inhuman, let us know how many 'Gypsies' have been exterminated by Europeans in the last 60-80 yrs (hint - it was part of the Holocaust). Also remind us how many 'Gypsies' or half Gypsies are or have been in a position of leadership in Europe and how many 'coloured' or 'half-coloured' people are or have been in a position of leadership in the USA.

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  • 244. At 12:39pm on 24 Aug 2010, Decebalus wrote:

    This video on youtube shows the RICH Gypsy houses made in Romania, using money from begging in Western europe.

    AMAZING RICH GYPSY HOUSES IN BUZESCU TOWN ROMANIA

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPNw6LZ5dxQ

    english article about Buzescu


    http://www.cafebabel.co.uk/article/28448/roma-palaces-architecture-buzescu-romania.html

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  • 245. At 12:48pm on 24 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #231 Buzet23

    Very Well said !!!

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  • 246. At 12:50pm on 24 Aug 2010, Decebalus wrote:

    AMAZING RICH GYPSY HOUSES IN BUZESCU TOWN ROMANIA

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPNw6LZ5dxQ

    In Buzescu, Roma architecture is surreal real estate

    http://www.cafebabel.co.uk/article/28448/roma-palaces-architecture-buzescu-romania.html

    How did they build those houses, with what money?

    Note to moderator: please allow this link, so people can see how the Rich Gypsies live in Romania (Town Buzescu)

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  • 247. At 1:08pm on 24 Aug 2010, Mickalus wrote:

    239. At 11:57am on 24 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    "It likes what it is. I on the other hand seeing it from an entirely different perspective detest it."

    ... so much so it appears that you find it impossible to shut up about it.

    Slightly off topic - from your postings you conform absolutely to as many sad and negative European stereotypes of Americans as can possibly be recalled.

    I, for one, now invite you to shut up and kindly let other Americans who actually have something thoughtful and intelligent with to say, apart from the bile and chidish puke you spew to come forward.

    Mickalus

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  • 248. At 1:10pm on 24 Aug 2010, oulematu wrote:

    Andrew Taggart, #54 wrote: "Franch is a democracy. Democracy is, and should be, about rule by the majority. Every other system is rule by a minority and is ruibbish. If a democracy insists that people live in a particular way and refrain from certain activities, then those that set up home (or camp) in that country should live by those laws attempt to get them changed (lawfully) or leave."

    Just because the majority declares something is so does not make it so. Slavery was at one time upheld by a majority, as was segregation and many other forms of discrimination both in the past and, sadly, in the present. That is why judicial review has been built into democratic constitutions. A democracy is not simply rule by majority (which continues to shock many in the majority), but built on fairness and equality with protections built in for the minorities. Civil rights need to be recognized to protect the "other" from the tyranny of the majority and their beliefs. If you want to maintain public order and prevent the abuse of social security, then enforce rules of public order and reform social security, but do not discriminate against members of visible minorities, such as the Roma/Gypsies.

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  • 249. At 1:18pm on 24 Aug 2010, oulematu wrote:

    MarcusAureliusII, #33 wrote: "The Roma have been made the outcasts of Europe. They are a self fulfilling prophesy, their antisocial behavior the result of being cut off by discrimination, by the European culture of exclusion, the proof that detesting them, fearing them, isolating them is justified. Jews were once treated the same way in Europe and in some places probably still are. Americans have evolved past this, Europeans haven't and I doubt they ever will."

    This is to a large extent true. Institutions in Europe are changing only slowly, and it takes even more time to change human minds. Europe needs to break with its history and traditions in order to become an inclusive society, not one built on a culture of exclusion.

    It is pathetic that in the EU, which claims to be a space of free movement of persons and purports to confer an EU "citizenship" upon its citizens, we see expulsions of EU citizens to other EU states (see also the measures which are now being proposed by Italy in order to be discussed at a summit among ministers from six or seven EU states). If the EU allows France and Italy to get away with this, then frankly I do not understand what is the point of the EU.

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  • 250. At 1:35pm on 24 Aug 2010, french_connection wrote:

    #22: I'm French, and, I am not ashamed of Sarkozy's policies. A lot of French think the same, but, are to afraid to speak up.
    I think these kind of policies are simply 20, even 30 years too late! Between the roma and the banlieus, enough is enough!
    Is it normal that in the city, there are romas everywhere tring to pick-pocket anyone, not just vulnerable tourists?
    Is it normal that in the countryside, that the roma pass by car in front of your house to see what you have and if it interests them? btw, they don't care if you are home or not.
    There comes a time when one needs to defend the interest of his/her country. Think about your children and future generations!

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  • 251. At 1:50pm on 24 Aug 2010, torpare wrote:

    @239 MarcusAureliusII

    Homer

    Perhaps you could identify (if you read it, as the saying goes, "without prejudice" - some chance!) in what ways, exactly, either my post #234 or the others I cited "fails to see what is staring (us) in the face" (regarding the actual topic of this blog rather than your anti-European rantings per se, which are of not the slightest interest to anyone)?

    Or would that be asking too much? If you're simply unable to abandon your prejudices and your tasteless and aggressive repartee even for a moment I beg of you not to repond to this request at all because, if you do, I'll ignore that kind of response anyway.

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  • 252. At 1:59pm on 24 Aug 2010, oulematu wrote:

    Louell, #119 wrote: "This brings us to the origins of the Roma. As a number of contributors to this blog rightly point out, Roma are not Romanian, Bulgarian or even vaguely European. They are pilgrims from the Indian Sub-Continent who over time have fled life-threatening situations for a better and healthier lifestyle. Good for them. Then they must accept that in order to gain acceptance in their host nations, they need to accept Education, concepts of Health and Hygiene, Social Behaviour and to become law-abiding, hard-working citizens like the rest of us have to be willy nilly."

    Someone whose ancestors have lived in Europe for half a millenium cannot be labelled as a non-European by any stretch of imagination. Only a European fascist would say something like that (which does not mean that those are not plentiful).

    It is also important to note that Roma, like everyone else, are obliged to comply with laws, but are otherwise not required to adopt customs or habits that would please their fellow Europeans of non-Roma origin. It is true that not all Roma, and not all of their fellow Europeans of non-Roma origin, always comply with law and that is what law enforcement is for (or in theory should be).

    Moral disapproval alone is an improper basis on which to deny rights. Moral opprobrium by the majority, no matter how long-standing, is not enough to justify discriminatory treatment of minorities, including the Roma.

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  • 253. At 2:11pm on 24 Aug 2010, torpare wrote:

    Homer

    "First you say Europe doesn't have this problem". Oh, where did I say that? Do you have learning difficulties, I wonder?

    "Even if it were true that America remains a racist society and is not changing, that does not affect Europe's situation". I agree 110%, and nothing I wrote suggested otherwise - the exact opposite in fact.

    "That argument is just a way to rationalize what Europeans know their society is by pointing to someone else whom they'd like to think has the same problem. More European irrational illogic". Pots and kettles...?

    "I on the other hand seeing it from an entirely different perspective detest it". Really Homer? we'd never have guessed. Isn't it time you stopped disguising your real feelings?

    But, seriously, does it ever cross your mind to ask yourself if that degree of irrational hatred might not prevent you from forming any rational opinion, or advancing any rational arguments, about anything to do with Europe? It should have.

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  • 254. At 2:39pm on 24 Aug 2010, torpare wrote:

    @249 oulematu wrote:
    "Institutions in Europe are changing only slowly, and it takes even more time to change human minds."
    -ONLY in Europe? I hardly think so, what you're sescribing is a universal human trait.

    "Europe needs to break with its history and traditions in order to become an inclusive society, not one built on a culture of exclusion". Try telling that to the Israeli government: citizenship, in Israel, is reserved for jews. There is no counterpart for this in Europe, indeed such exclusion is expressly forbidden by european law.

    I applauded your #248, but sadly I've subsequently felt forced to question your judgment. I disagree with much of the rest of what you've written, and especially this (to MAII):- "This is to a large extent true". It most certainly isn't, it is - as usual from that source - mostly tendentious claptrap, laced with bile!

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  • 255. At 2:44pm on 24 Aug 2010, Decebalus wrote:

    CURRENT U.S. DEATH ROW POPULATION BY RACE

    BLACK 41.6%
    LATINO 11.6%
    WHITE 44.4%

    More than HALF of all prisoners in the United States are black. That is NOT called INTEGRATION its called INCARCERATION

    Aren't you ashamed by that? Do you think by electing a Black-White Christian-Muslim puppet president will solve this issue? Well, maybe you believe in Black-magic…

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  • 256. At 3:40pm on 24 Aug 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @250 French_connection
    “….I am not ashamed of Sarkozy's policies. A lot of French think the same, but, are to afraid to speak up.I think these kind of policies are simply 20, even 30 years too late! Between the roma and the banlieus, enough is enough!”
    I would not permit myself to please our householders by commenting what happened in France last week when the first group of 13 Roma were virtually “mailed back” to Sofia by airway. As I posted earlier it was our mistake to abandon those people for the last 20 years. The French announced that some 120 Bulgarian Gypsies are to be expelled in days. Well, our authorities did not object, and, to my knowledge, they even had worked in team with the French services in order to make “smoother” the expatriation.
    I agree in principle with you that the majority of the French are behind Sarko, and that they do not declare it openly (except maybe some people who sympathise with “Le front populaire”). What I have to add to your wording is that in the aftermath of the Algerian war, many people of Algerian origin remained in France and many of them refused, or were not able to integrate. So that, the beginning of the gradually cumulated cultural incompatibility between the people of Muslim origin and the remaining part of the French society seems to go back to 1962, i.e. almost 50 years ago!
    The bulgarian connection

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  • 257. At 4:21pm on 24 Aug 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    --✄-- Disappointing: I had expected a lot better from You --✄--
        
    I'm flattered by your expectations ... 。◕‿◕。

    --✄-- Whether 'albanian', 'roma', english', or even the wondrous 'greek' every Individual is entitled to the same respect & protection as well as being the subject of the Law. --✄--

    I suppose under the same              (•̪●)
    gen. Petreus umbrella          '̿'̿ ̿'̿ ̿'\̵͇̿̿\з=()=ε/̵͇̿̿/'̿'̿ ̿'̿ ̿
    protection...and the US laws            / \
    is more than good for you...

    --✄-- Because some 'roma' commit crime, because some 'english' commit crime, because some 'albanian' commit crime (I'll stop there - - in deference to Your friend Nik...) gives no one the right to label entire Peoples as crooks and worse than crooks --✄--

    Opps!..Someone dared to gone even 'U.S. State Department' further to this 'labelling entire Peoples as crooks and worse than crooks'

    and it happens to be their (of the Albanians) best friends among all nations...truth is so hard to get assimilated!

    As far it concerns...gypsies 'gyftoi'...in my country and most of all in my city are quite a respectful society with very charming houses...that do a lot of commerce and they are hard workers.
    I personally had several friends among them 'to the same class at the Secondary school' without any kind of problem or integration issues and they are to be distinguished from the Greek gypsies nomads or else called 'tsiganoi' (very little of them, very religious as cristians and mostly the parallel society life that Nik spoke about) as well as the 'Romas' (most of them from Romania or from nearby Slavic nations and of course not Greeks).

    So Romas must and can be treated like all other foreigners who come illegally to a country that don't belong

    or

    if European Union citizens must demonstrate that can be there according to the law. It's as simple as that. Of course when we talk about a few thousands sometimes legislation can be flexible but a hundreds of thousands of them in a short period of time it's certainly a big problem...Like the Rumanian's in Italy...in less than a year quite 500.000 came to Italy because of the flexible legislation against crimes, the strong similarity to the language and the distance from their native country.

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  • 258. At 4:39pm on 24 Aug 2010, Benefactor wrote:

    Marcus, have you considered writing a blog on current affairs and geopolitics and all that sort of thing? I think you should.

    I know I'd enjoy reading it...

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  • 259. At 5:00pm on 24 Aug 2010, Derska wrote:

    Marcus, can you answer my questions?

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  • 260. At 6:23pm on 24 Aug 2010, democracythreat wrote:

    Buzet wrote:
    "Do you understand so little about all animals on this planet that you think being territorial is not normal, the human animal is no different so why expect people to not be territorial. I will repeat, nobody has the right to enter someone else's territory without permission, whether that be a house, land or country."

    You are absolutely correct, and of course I understand that animals are territorial.

    Indeed, that was rather my point. You may think you have elevated your intellectual position by comparing yourself to a herd animal without the capacity for human reason, but I do not believe you have done so. As far as I can tell, you have compared yourself to a non human animal. Your argument seems to be that behaving like an ignorant and unreasoning animal is legitimate behaviour for an adult human being.

    And I would agree. The tendency to pick on the Roma, and the absurd inclination to pretend to be the owner of a "country", even in part, is absolutely mindless animal aggression.

    If you can't rise above it, that is no argument against those who can.

    Human rights and compassion lift us all up, whereas animal stupidity and violence drag us all down. So you make your choice, and be whatever you can be.

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  • 261. At 6:31pm on 24 Aug 2010, democracythreat wrote:

    This blog is reinforcement for the idea that property is not theft, but rather fraud.

    Listen to these folks who claim to own Europe, to have better title than the Roma.

    Upon what basis do these folks make their claim?

    The arbitrary claim to land that we all share is a perversion. It seeks to create a system of law where those without title have no right to exist. After all, how can a person or a people exist if they are not permitted to stand and live in areas because some other folks claim exclusive title to it?

    And is that not precisely the philosophy of the nazi party? They needed lebensraum, living space, and so they presumed title and negated the previous title held by jews, by gypsies, by the infirm, by communists, by anyone and everyone who did not "conform" to their arbitrary dictation of how all must behave, and indeed what colour skin each person must have.

    We all see that the nazis had no real title. Their claims to own europe were a massive fraud. It was theft and robbery of other folks dressed up as a legitimate exercise of "the law".

    The folks on this blog making claims that negate the Roma people's title to European lands is no better. It is exactly the same brutal fraud. They wish to steal and rob and take that which they have no right to take, and they justify it with absurd appeals to "the law". To property.

    It is a fraud. A brutal, cruel, heartless and destructive fraud.

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  • 262. At 8:16pm on 24 Aug 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    261 democracythreat

    Surely if that is your opinion then your own country America is the most awful example in recent history. You need no reminder on how your own forefathers stole their country from the indigenous people and murdered them or drove them into 'reservations' on land that was of no use to the settlers. The same happened in Australia,Tasmania (total extinction of the original inhabitants), New Zealand and wherever other mostly english speaking people chose to invade. Should they all have to give it back now that we are more aware of the human rights you seem to preach? Totally impractical, but to call the people responsible 'Nazis' is just a (new) lazy name of labelling something that has happened since the dawn of time long before the Nazis ever rose to power and demanded 'lebensraum' and has surely little to do with the present plight of the Roma.

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  • 263. At 9:20pm on 24 Aug 2010, Victor wrote:

    I am enjoying this greatly. Not long ago, my country was chastised for building a noise barrier between a Roma squat and the neighbouring street whose inhabitants wanted to experience the luxury of an uninterrupted all-night sleep. According to the international politically-correct press (even BBC took part in that shameful smear campaign), the Czechs were "ghettoizing" the Roma, forcefully separating them from the "whites". We were widely portrayed as a bunch of racists who enjoy discriminating against the poor innocent Roma. It was presented as a proof of our backwardness and unpreparedness for EU membership.

    A few years later, France starts mass expatriating them. I wonder what changed - maybe the Western Europeans have now experienced the problem and found out that their smug superiority was sorely misplaced? Maybe they now understand what we've been dealing with for decades?

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  • 264. At 9:30pm on 24 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #261 and #262

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/who-owns-britain-biggest-landowners-agree-to-reveal-scale-of-holdings-443956.html

    The usual link ! (under crime)

    What´s this Nazi discussion ?

    How much of what is not used in Britain should be given to the Gypsies ?

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  • 265. At 9:43pm on 24 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #263 Victor

    A ´noise barrier ´?

    Thats a nice name for a wall !

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  • 266. At 9:44pm on 24 Aug 2010, democracythreat wrote:

    margaret howard wrote:
    "261 democracythreat
    Surely if that is your opinion then your own country America is the most awful example in recent history. You need no reminder on how your own forefathers stole their country from the indigenous people and murdered them or drove them into 'reservations' on land that was of no use to the settlers. The same happened in Australia,Tasmania (total extinction of the original inhabitants), New Zealand and wherever other mostly english speaking people chose to invade. Should they all have to give it back now that we are more aware of the human rights you seem to preach? Totally impractical, but to call the people responsible 'Nazis' is just a (new) lazy name of labelling something that has happened since the dawn of time long before the Nazis ever rose to power and demanded 'lebensraum' and has surely little to do with the present plight of the Roma."

    Leaving aside your presumptions of my origin, I take exception to the claim that I labelled anyone "nazis", except the nazis themselves.

    I call fascists what they are: folks who believe the best form of political economy is a privately owned oligarchy. In this context, these fascists are behaving precisely as fascists do. They side with private property owners and obey whatever they are told to do by their lords. That is what fascists do. It is "how they roll". It is one of the reasons they are to be feared, and why the corporate control of any political economy is such a hellishly dangerous thing. Private ownership of property in large concentrations ipso facto creates not only profound injustice in terms of political emancipation, it also provides a lighting rod for every type of fearful, cowardly, low brow misery monger to huddle around and gather strength through association with power.

    I think you would do better, in terms of making a case, if you stick very closely to what I write, and perhaps refrain from paraphrasing and guessing at my meaning. The assumption that you are able to comprehend what I have written without researching terms you do not understand may not withstand testing.

    But you do raise a very interesting question with regard to whether the Australian aborigines and the US aborigines ought to be given back what was taken from them.

    Curiously, the question is not contentious when applied to white folks from Europe. I don't know anybody who would publicly claim that jews who lost their property due to the genocide of the third reich do not deserve to be reinstated to their property.

    And yet when dealing with the aboriginal inhabitants of australia and the USA, somehow the idea is idiotic.

    Now why is that? It is hardly the passage of time which has made the Australian corporate overlords entitled to their ill gotten gains. Australian aboriginals were not even legally people until the 1970's. Prior to that time, the official position of English law was that Australia had been "terra nullius", or empty of people. This designation was the official position of the British House of Lords, and it justified the wholesale slaughter of the native people and the acquisition of their land. And that didn't change until 1976, I believe.

    So it is not the passage of time which makes the land rights claims of native australians defunct to the general European mindset. It is something else, which I do not wish to delve further into just now, for fear of offending vast numbers of folks who think they are better than they are, both intellectually and morally.

    Now you claim, Margaret, that it is "totally impractical" for the native Australians to be given legal title to their lands. I would take the opposite view, knowing something about the issue, and especially knowing a great deal about the underlying law and social problems that continue in Australia.

    I would offer the view that until the Australian aborigines are given legal title to their lands, or at least SOME of their lands, then they will never be able to afford decent legal counsel. After all, if you ask the members of the British House of Lords where they get their money to pay their hordes of lawyers, the answer is that they obtain their income from assets. And without decent legal counsel, the elders in the Aboriginal communities will never be able to address court in a satisfactory way, and without addressing court in a satisfactory way, they will never obtain the respect of the wider community. And without obtaining the respect of the wider community, I venture to suggest that the genocide against the Australian native people continues unabated, and will inevitably become complete. The australian aboriginals are a broken people in a savage land, and they are dying for want of respect and title in a community which treats them as second rate human beings.

    And so I would make the case that until the English law begins to treat the Australian aboriginals with the same basic legal decency with which the English were treated by the Normans who conquered their lands in 1066, and until the aboriginals are given legitimate title to their lands and compensation for their mistreatment, then the odious crime of genocide against them must be seen to continue.

    This is not some trite minor issue. We are talking about the survival of a unique culture and people. We are discussing the continuing genocide of an entire race, under the management of the English crown. I remind you that the British Queen is still the head of state in these lands.

    It is disgustingly commonplace for the English to blame colonial settlers for the evil done to the Australian natives, but the raw fact is that it is the British aristocracy which owns and profits from the widespread use and plunder of traditional aboriginal lands. And it has been the British common law which has overseen the most cruel and brutal abuses of these people, and the legal issues raised here have been decided by British judges sitting in session in London, right up until 1984.

    It has become a trite observation that all evil requires is for good people to do nothing, and this appears to fit the histories and present condition of both the Australian aborigines and the Roma in Europe.

    Not only would I give back the land to the Australian aboriginals, I would make an order that the wealth taken from those lands over the course of Australian settlement is held on constructive trust for the true owners. That is nothing more or less than an application of the law of restitution. Of course, it would break the British nation, and would set a precedent for the entire dismemberment of the British commonwealth. It would instantly render the house of lords a house of paupers, deemed murderous thieves by the law.

    just so, if the Roma were compensated fairly for the abuses they have suffered at the hands of the German and French states, these people would also face a secure future, and likewise the aristocracy of western Europe would face instant impoverishment.

    Such is the fate, if the common law were to be applied, of those who have stolen what they now claim as their proper title: their "property".

    And I would see this done, for it would strike a mortal blow to the outdated and frankly putrid class system which pervades Europe and which continues to habour and incubate fascism. I do not see a day for real political emancipation in Europe until the crimes of the european aristocracy are laid bare for all to see, and so i wish with all my might that this day comes, and sooner rather than later.

    Do not mistake my position here, Margret. I would see the infantry march the house of lords to the poorhouse with glee and hope in my heart. I would spare them the sentence of death because I am a progressive soul, and I do not hold with taking that which one cannot replace.

    But there is no question about where I stand with regard to human rights and property. If humanity is to be a badge worn with pride by civilized folks, we must give back that which was plundered without mercy, and we must honour the Roma as fellow travelers in a shared European environment.

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  • 267. At 10:02pm on 24 Aug 2010, democracythreat wrote:

    Victor, you neglect to consider the possibility that the french state has devolved to the appalling level of previous Czech racism and human rights abuse.

    Just because someone else does as you do, this does not mean you are absolved of blame for sin or crime.

    The irony of the christian sentiment being displayed on this blog is profound. All who claim to be "conforming" to legal norms ultimately owe their understanding such norms to the christian church. And yet the compassion of christ is entirely absent, and the self proclaimed virtuous folks are in a rush to cast the first stone at those they perceive as weakest in their society.

    First they come for the Roma, then they come for the jews. Then they come for you. It seems to me that the only way to be safe in Europe is to be an utterly mindless and obedient servant of your local lord, and to pray to the catholic god as instructed, when instructed.

    What a ringing endorsement of the entire continent.

    Have you folks who have so much to criticize about the Roma, have you any idea how you look to the outside world?

    Even if the worst charges against the Roma are proven, and they are habitual thieves and liars, they still do not compare to the worthless display of insane hate and bloodlust from those who would demand conformity to their ideals, against pain of excommunication and state brutality.

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  • 268. At 10:07pm on 24 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #260. At 6:23pm on 24 Aug 2010, democracythreat,

    Somewhat amazing your words, are you really believing what you say or just trying to provoke us. I repeat hard line Socialists are no different from Fascists and your words suggest you are from the extreme who likes to purvey an acceptance of helping all, whilst being an extremist you will keep the benefits to you, the party hacks and rule the world, or rather the party will.

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  • 269. At 10:18pm on 24 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #237. At 11:21am on 24 Aug 2010, letty,

    Sorry to say this as you seem to be new here but many do remember to facts of WWII as I have heard from many I know in Wallonia. Indeed your General De Gaulle was not so much a love of the French as he is reputed to have said how is it possible to govern a country with 246 types of cheese. The poster #236. torpare reflected the views of a mate of mine who is French born but Belgian and who has been a senior manager in France, he is probably still laughing over the suggestion that managing the French is like herding cats, or to use an expression, yet another disaster pulled from the jaws of victory.

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  • 270. At 10:25pm on 24 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #268 Buzet 23

    Who is not a Socialist in your eyes ?

    All those who believe in ´dog eat dog´and say ´ I´m alright Jack ´ ---anybody else ?

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  • 271. At 10:31pm on 24 Aug 2010, democracythreat wrote:

    Buzet23 wrote:
    "#260. At 6:23pm on 24 Aug 2010, democracythreat,
    Somewhat amazing your words, are you really believing what you say or just trying to provoke us. I repeat hard line Socialists are no different from Fascists and your words suggest you are from the extreme who likes to purvey an acceptance of helping all, whilst being an extremist you will keep the benefits to you, the party hacks and rule the world, or rather the party will."

    Rest assured I do not spend my time trying to provoke folks like you, Buzet.

    That you perceive me as a hard line socialist speaks more to your own limitations of conceptual understanding than it does to my own convictions.

    As it happens I agree that socialism based upon absolute party rule is no better than fascism. That is why I advocate for direct democracy and the rule of human rights law.

    I do not wish to provoke anyone, except insofar as I wish to see folks provoked into confronting their own understanding of what makes the world a better place.

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  • 272. At 10:32pm on 24 Aug 2010, Benefactor wrote:

    Godwins Law people ;-) .

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  • 273. At 10:43pm on 24 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 274. At 11:20pm on 24 Aug 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:

    Unusually, I read my local newspaper today.

    One report is about a man killing another with methods he learnt in the Russian Army.

    Another is about a group of men, all with foreign but European first and last names, gang-raping a sixteen year old girl and filming it on a mobile phone.

    All this, together with many other reports, really does suggest strongly that the excessively open borders in the "EU" do encourage criminals to come to the UK.

    I am not saying that all foreigners or the majority of them are criminals. There are very many who, as far as I am concerned, are very welcome here.

    GIVE US OUR BORDERS BACK!

    FREE BRITAIN FROM THE "eu"!

    FREE EUROPE FROM THE RUBBISH WHICH CALLS ITSELF EUROPE BUT IS NOT!


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  • 275. At 11:38pm on 24 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #270. At 10:25pm on 24 Aug 2010, quietoaktree,

    I would not expect better than that from you as you've proved your worth many times, or rather lack of it.

    Sleep tight and make sure the coffin lid is shut, permanently I hope.

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  • 276. At 11:42pm on 24 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    #271. At 10:31pm on 24 Aug 2010, democracythreat,

    As I said earlier, just who believes in democracy as your name suggests it is you that are the threat to democracy.

    As for "I do not wish to provoke anyone, except insofar as I wish to see folks provoked into confronting their own understanding of what makes the world a better place."

    Do you actually understand what you are saying or even what would make the world a better place, certainly not the utterings that pour forth from you. You truly need to confront the devil of your own making.

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  • 277. At 00:00am on 25 Aug 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    266 democracythreat writes:

    "Leaving aside your presumptions of my origin..."
    Nothing presumptious about that, you said you were American in an earlier discussion on this website. After all there is nothing be ashamed of in being Anerican.You people have done some wonderful things it is just a pity you never seem to acknowledge all the sins of your fathers and this tends to annoy people in other countries when you tell them how to live their lives. Your latest escapades in Iraq and Afghanistan are being sold as a fight for the liberation of women and the common man when the rest of the world knows perfectly well that it is just a new version of 'lebensraum' this time not for land but other countries' oil. Iran next until the whole of the middle east will drop into your greedy oil-guzzling lap. It seems to me that we Europeans have made tremendous progress in transforming ourselves since those disasterous wars in the 20th century, yet you Americans have learnt nothing and will be condemned to the same fate that befell us. You should know better. As for your pious condemnation of our treatment of the gypsies, physician heal thyself (Luke I believe)

    Your thoughts on the restitution of land to various aboriginal people around the world are of course absurd and if carried out would destroy the fabric of the civilised world. It is a Utopia that is neither possible nor desirable and in the case of the aborigines of Australia quite pointless as they had no idea of personal ownership of land and to let any lawyers, especially greedy American ones, anywhere near these issues would be guaranteeing vast wealth for a few and penuary for the rest of mankind. I have never heard such a load of balderdash as that spouted by you in regard to restitution of land. Piffle and balderdash clothed in lawyerly pomposity.

    Finally in 267 you write:
    "First they come for the Roma, then they come for the jews. Then they come for you."
    I know you are a stickler for correctness and don't like to be misrepresented by anyone else so I feel you should have mentioned that you adopted and paraphrased from a quote by Pastor Niemoeller which reads in full:
    THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
    and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
    THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
    and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
    THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
    and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
    THEN THEY CAME for me
    and by that time no one was left to speak up

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  • 278. At 01:33am on 25 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    torpor;

    Ooooo doesn't it hurt when the shoe is on the other foot for a change and it is an American criticizing Europe and Europeans. And so thin skinned about it too. All the more reason. They can sure dish it out but they can't take even a pinch of their own medicine.

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  • 279. At 01:34am on 25 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Derska;

    "Marcus, can you answer my questions?"

    I did but the moderators didn't like it. Take my word for it, you would have liked it even less than they did.

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  • 280. At 01:58am on 25 Aug 2010, MaudDib wrote:

    267. d_t

    "Hate the sin but love the sinner". Now that ain't easy.

    The moral high ground is a interesting place to be. You can observe all the comings and goings of those mere mortals down below. Mother Theresa, now that's a lady. She knew what to do with that view. She took it with her.

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  • 281. At 03:51am on 25 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Maggie Howie;

    You remind me of the Cheshire cat. If they ever came for you and all the rest of you disappeared from view, there would always be one part left behind. Hell hath no fury....

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  • 282. At 07:53am on 25 Aug 2010, natan wrote:

    @ 240 generalissimo62

    "What I could not quite understand was the big noise over the Roma case in France, which seemingly is limited to several hundreds of people (who can easily be repatriated to Sofia & Bucharest in days). At the same time, the even more difficult, the ever lasting problem of the millions of North African immigrants in France, Spain, Italy, Belgium, remained somehow shadowed by it, and the discussion slipped into a pure legal debate about the proper authority the French used for the expelling of people who had European identity cards/passports. We simply deviated from the main discussion, and seemingly refused to see the core of the phenomenon."

    I will give you two reasons for the disproportional (not at all in a bad sense) coverage of this issue:

    1) As you pointed out, there is a legal debate going on (as opposed to merely ethical). This, however, is not a trivial issue. What is at stake here is the very integrity of the EU and the rights of ALL EU citizens, not just Roma. The persecutions started at the weakest group but they give a precedent to other member-states to start abusing the EU (otherwise liberal) law in order to persecute other groups, including ALL economically disadvantaged EU citizens who do not reside in their home-states. Ergo: end of the "Free Movement" principle -- the core of the EU sole. (Well, Bulgaria and Romania are still facing the temporary restrictions on the free movement of workers (and, importantly, not residents!) but any state that uses this restriction against Roma is shooting itself in a foot (let me know if you need an explanation of the above).

    2) Roma have been selected as the second (to Jews) ethnicity for extermination by the National Socialists (Slavs formed the third group, but that one was more of a slave-labor flavor). Their massive persecutions, extermination, and degradation in Europe by the NSDAP (N.S. German Worker's Party) and others have left a painful imprint against everything that Europe imagines to stand for these days (tolerance, prosperity, diversity, etc).

    What bothers me most is that so many folks up here do not recognize Roma as European. The same distinction was imposed on Jews in that darker period of recent history. Jews were the ultimate “the Other”.

    This being said, every individual should be responsible for his deeds and in today's space-tech society of Europe (well…?), there should be no problem to punishing those who break civil/criminal laws. Start with a small. Massive deportations, even if technically legal by EU laws for the Bulgaria/Romania-complex, are counterproductive, immoral and of bad taste.

    I always thought Europe should be more like America: relatively indifferent to the ethnicity, race, etc, but open to new ideas from everyone who bothers to participate in the show (culminating in the all-powerful citizenship). Now it is actually a pretty good timing for this magnificent step in the right direction. America is falling to its worst European roots, with the Arizona laws, dogs on Muslim Friday worships (so reminiscent of French Muslims interrupting the Shabbat service on Saturdays in France), insane immigration policy (or the absence of one)… Europe has always been behind America in all of the above and I don’t think it will catch up any time soon. But the gap is -- for the first time in the recent history -- getting smaller. Work on it.

    And this is why, the 100 something EU citizens deported from one EU state to another EU state gathered more attention in recent days that the ever-present (an in my opinion insufficient) immigration to the EU.

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  • 283. At 09:06am on 25 Aug 2010, oulematu wrote:

    to #254, torpare:

    Thank you for your comment. Indeed, it is a universal human trait that institutions change only slowly and it takes even more time to change human minds. I understand it is not easy, but Europe does need to break with its history and traditions in order to become a more inclusive society, not one built on a culture of exclusion. So do many other countries including Israel, as you mention - maybe Israel should draw more inspiration from Brooklyn instead of its Middle Eastern neighbors :-). In my post, I was most directly concerned with Europe which is where I live and is the main focus of this forum.

    Glad you agree with my #248 and feel free to question my judgment in #249. Despite what many of the (I assume European) posters would like to make one believe, I find MAII has a point in his criticism of Europe. I will not deny that one could put forward criticism also about the US which includes many cosmopolitan places but also many intolerant communities. I guess a difference might be that a minority person in the US frequently has the option to move to a more inclusive community, an option which is not necessarily available to many in Europe (due to persisting ethnic, language and practical barriers - as demostrated for instance by this entire discussion on the explusions of the Roma from France to other EU states). The US is also simply significantly more diverse than most EU states. I am white but my spouse (and hence our children, in the understanding of the majority society) are non-white non-indigenous persons from a non-European OECD country, and I have to say that my experience with the majority population where we live has so far been mixed. I also find that most EU member states are quite adept at dressing up enlightened laws and principles on their books while successfully ignoring them for the purposes of their application whenever convenient. If you are a well-off taxpayer the majority may to some extent leave you alone (although some employees at some stores or service providers, not to mention some of the authorities, may still consider it an affront to have to sell to a non-white person without (or even with) a perfect command of the local language) but not everyone may be in that position. You may find it bad judgment, but I do find it pathetic that in the EU, which claims to be a space of free movement of persons and purports to confer an EU "citizenship" upon its citizens, we see expulsions of EU citizens to other EU states. That approach cannot resolve the EU's problems but panders to ignorant voters by shifting those problems from one state to another and back. The EU cannot wash its hands off the Roma issue - it is not tolerable that a community of freedom and mutual respect, which the EU prides itself to be, would reserve to an almost entire ethnic group of people (namely the Roma) third-world living conditions and second-class standard of rights such that used to be more typical of the Blacks in apartheid South Africa.

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  • 284. At 09:06am on 25 Aug 2010, oulematu wrote:

    to democracythreat:

    Very well said. I agree with all your posts in this thread and specifically also with #267. The treatment to which the Roma are subjected in the Czech Republic is absolutely outrageous and it is quite a feat of Czech diplomacy that this has not yet created a world-wide scandal (unfortunately, a large dose of international pressure would be conducive to finding a workable solution to this long-standing problem, so the public opinion in other countries should take note).

    As you see from #263, many Czechs are not content to limit themselves to domestic abuse of the Roma, but they also actively applaud and even enjoy the discrimination of the Roma in other EU states. In other words, their concern lies not so much in finding a practical solution to the plight of the Roma community, but they simply draw sadistic enjoyment from that plight. One can be truly proud of being a Czech these days, or maybe not?

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  • 285. At 09:52am on 25 Aug 2010, Victor wrote:

    @ 267., democracythreat:

    It's patently obvious that you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about, so I am going to ignore your self-righteous drivel and go straight to the point.

    Which is that the Roma *DON'T WANT TO BE INTEGRATED*. Period. I know that for multicultural zealots the mere thought that a minority could refuse to participate in the multicultural utopia we're apparently trying to build in Europe is almost sacrilegious, but that's how it is.

    And since the usual multiculturalist's reaction to a passing contact with reality are insults and accusations of racism, I am going to pre-empt that too. I am not racist in the slightest. There are some Roma people who live like normal civilized citizens (which includes having a job and sending children to school, to name just a few things) and I am perfectly OK with them. Unfortunately, 80% to 90% of their brethren (these are the estimates of the Romany NGOs) are unemployed and living on welfare benefits. Not because there isn't any work for them - you'll see immigrants from Eastern Europe all around here doing all kinds of unqualified labour the Roma could easily do if they wanted. But they won't - why would they? It's easier to claim welfare benefits, child benefits, disability benefits and whatever else bloody benefits there are, and complement that income by stealing. For that they have their children, who are too young to be prosecuted, so they can pickpocket with impunity instead of attending school like the other kids. It's a sad truth that Roma parents usually absolutely ignore education; they don't motivate their children to achieve something in life and the example they give them makes it inevitable that they'll end up just as their parents - uneducated, unemployed and annoying.

    Now, if you don't believe me, move to this country, rent a flat in a Roma neighbourhood (they're very cheap, but you'll soon find out why...) and spend a few years observing their way of life. Please, be my guest.

    I 100% guarantee you that it will cure you of your misguided human rights concerns. If someone's rights are being violated in this country, it's the right of all taxpayers to have their money spent wisely, instead of being given to a minority which refuses to behave in a civilized manner and which firmly believes its members are entitled to government (=our) money just because they're Roma. How's that?

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  • 286. At 10:25am on 25 Aug 2010, torpare wrote:

    @283 oulematu wrote:
    "You may find it bad judgment, but I do find it pathetic that in the EU, which claims to be a space of free movement of persons and purports to confer an EU "citizenship" upon its citizens, we see expulsions of EU citizens to other EU states. That approach cannot resolve the EU's problems but panders to ignorant voters by shifting those problems from one state to another and back. The EU cannot wash its hands off the Roma issue - it is not tolerable that a community of freedom and mutual respect, which the EU prides itself to be, would reserve to an almost entire ethnic group of people (namely the Roma) third-world living conditions and second-class standard of rights such that used to be more typical of the Blacks in apartheid South Africa".

    No, oulematu (what does that mean, btw?), I don't find it bad judgment at all: I agree with it.

    Thank you for your courteous and reasonable reply. I attacked you for seemingly having swallowed MAII's propaganda uncritically, because I think he has ruled himself out of court by his ridiculously intemperate diatribes. But, as you rightly say, even MAII does have a point, sometimes. If only he could bring himself to lay aside the vitriol. You present a far better-balanced appreciation than he ever has of American society's many undoubted virtues (I myself went to school there btw). Ironic really.

    One reservation I continue to have about the view you so ably advance is that it takes insufficient account of the shortcomings of some of those who are being discriminated against. They too, surely, have to compromise: there has to be give and take on BOTH sides or else the problem will never be solved.

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  • 287. At 10:32am on 25 Aug 2010, Nik wrote:

    Let me try quoting:

    283. At 09:06am on 25 Aug 2010, oulematu wrote:
    ...but Europe does need to break with its history and traditions in order to become a more inclusive society, not one built on a culture of exclusion.

    Are you of European origins yourself? Or of different origins? Cos if you are the second your opinion is extremely subjective as naturally you would be glad to see European populations be flooded by a mass of any other population (and preferrable for you of your own affinity). Which of course if the case, it is an extrremely racist and offensive view.

    So do many other countries including Israel, as you mention - maybe Israel should draw more inspiration from Brooklyn instead of its Middle Eastern neighbors :-).

    That's it. Better keep your critiscism for the Middle Eastern states. Don't concentrate to treating people with simple fever symptos when in the hospital you have others suffering from cancer. Stick to cancer first.

    In my post, I was most directly concerned with Europe which is where I live and is the main focus of this forum.

    That is where you live but that is where you might not come from. So your view is extremely subjective and does not prepresent Europeans.

    I guess a difference might be that a minority person in the US frequently has the option to move to a more inclusive community, an option which is not necessarily available to many in Europe (due to persisting ethnic, language and practical barriers - as demostrated for instance by this entire discussion on the explusions of the Roma from France to other EU states).

    With your sayings you really seem to be ignorant of anything related to "ethnic" in Europe as well you seem to have never socialised a single gipsy in your life. If so, then you have really to try hard to convince you speak seriously.

    If you are a well-off taxpayer the majority may to some extent leave you alone (although some employees at some stores or service providers, not to mention some of the authorities, may still consider it an affront to have to sell to a non-white person without (or even with) a perfect command of the local language) but not everyone may be in that position.

    I am Greek and I have experience what you mention in France, in Belgium and Holland while during my student days in Britain I did experience extreme violent racism (since for local working class it was more easier to attack lone European students than Pakistanis or Jamaicans for obvious reasons of 1) being sure I had not company of mine to retaliate 2) as a student being more vulnerable 3) in case of being caught not being charged with racist attack since I was... European...).

    Yet I frankly do not care about all that. Their problem, my problem. There was nothing particularly wrong in the British, Belgian, Dutch ot French legislation that I would wish to see changed (other than perhaps extend the notion of "racist attack" to include all cases - but even that I do not care that much).

    You may find it bad judgment, but I do find it pathetic that in the EU, which claims to be a space of free movement of persons and purports to confer an EU "citizenship" upon its citizens, we see expulsions of EU citizens to other EU states.

    When new EU countries integrate inside the EU several other countries maintain the right to put a minimum obstacle to the free movement for some time, just like Britain did with some Eastern countries. Was that the case for France and Romania and Bulgaria? I do not remember right now but then...

    ... the other solution of course is to apply the French law on gipsies which would simply mean they would have to pay heavy fines and get imprisoned for the long list of illegal acts ranging from illegal camping on public and (even worse) private lands down to petty crime like burglaries and robberies or sometimes more serious crime. But then it is crystal clear that the application of law is not exactly your priority either.

    So one actually should scorn Sarko for not respecting the French law and fining or imprisoning those wrongdoers of the gipsies (i.e. their totality in the sense of squatting illegally, and an important number of them for other illegal acts).

    EU cannot wash its hands off the Roma issue - it is not tolerable that a community of freedom and mutual respect, which the EU prides itself to be, would reserve to an almost entire ethnic group of people (namely the Roma) third-world living conditions and second-class standard of rights such that used to be more typical of the Blacks in apartheid South Africa.

    You are really ignorant of who are the gipsies. I sujest you either go educate yourself first on the issue then come to talk.

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  • 288. At 10:35am on 25 Aug 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @282 natan
    Thanks for your detailed, logical and persuasive comment. I certainly have little thing to add to your argument, except maybe for the promise the Brussels officials made this summer that Bulgaria should apply to be admitted to the Schengen space in 2011. (Irrespective of other, pure national restrictions many member states still apply that embarrass the free movement our labour force, the Schengen restrictions /which concerns also other states, beyond the EU/ is the next obstacle to overcome in our long and painful effort to reintegrate with old Europe which, historically, we have always been attached to).
    I share your main concern that the Roma case may serve as a pretext to other member states for prosecution of other groups of “economically disadvantaged EU citizens”, thus ignoring one of the fundamental principals of the EU. But, if you have in mind the millions of citizens of North African and African origin (mainly from Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco and Mauretania), the Thousands of Indians and Pakistani you have in the UK, the thousands of Iranians, Iraqis and Palestinians we already have in Eastern Europe, I can not imagine how we shall proceed in order to expel them from the EU. To that matter, you are right to say that the expatriation of several hundreds of Roma to Bulgaria/Romania is an easy think to do.
    What I am really concern for is the lack of agreed, pro-European vision on the immigration issue. The EU is getting older with every year. It needs fresh blood and young labour force. How shall we manage to admit massively non European workers/engineers/physicians/nurses, etc. and apply at the same time the principle of the free movement? Besides, the UK and Ireland have not yet joined the Schengen space, a fact which is considered here as an additional countermeasure for the free movement of the labour force (or as something like a pure British/Irish invention or shield against the illegal immigration).
    P.S. I agree that America has gone ahead of us in solving the problem. But the US is a unique state, whilst we /in the EU/ are still national member states with different visions/cultural traditions/legal systems etc. We have a long way to make before we succeed in getting closer to America.
    Regards

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  • 289. At 10:37am on 25 Aug 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @282 natan
    Thanks for your detailed, logical and persuasive comment. I certainly have little thing to add to your argument, except maybe for the promise the Brussels officials made this summer that Bulgaria should apply to be admitted to the Schengen space in 2011. (Irrespective of other, pure national restrictions many member states still apply that embarrass the free movement our labour force, the Schengen restrictions /which concerns also other states, beyond the EU/ is the next obstacle to overcome in our long and painful effort to reintegrate with old Europe which, historically, we have always been attached to).
    I share your main concern that the Roma case may serve as a pretext to other member states for prosecution of other groups of “economically disadvantaged EU citizens”, thus ignoring one of the fundamental principals of the EU. But, if you have in mind the millions of citizens of North African and African origin (mainly from Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco and Mauretania), the Thousands of Indians and Pakistani you have in the UK, the thousands of Iranians, Iraqis and Palestinians we already have in Eastern Europe, I can not imagine how we shall proceed in order to expel them from the EU. To that matter, you are right to say that the expatriation of several hundreds of Roma to Bulgaria/Romania is an easy think to do.
    What I am really concern for is the lack of agreed, pro-European vision on the immigration issue. The EU is getting older with every year. It needs fresh blood and young labour force. How shall we manage to admit massively non European workers/engineers/physicians/nurses, etc. and apply at the same time the principle of the free movement? Besides, the UK and Ireland have not yet joined the Schengen space, a fact which is considered here as an additional countermeasure for the free movement of the labour force (or as something like a pure British/Irish invention or shield against the illegal immigration).
    P.S. I agree that America has gone ahead of us in solving the problem. But the US is a unique state, whilst we /in the EU/ are still national member states with different visions/cultural traditions/legal systems etc. We have a long way to make before we succeed in getting closer to America.
    Regards

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  • 290. At 10:48am on 25 Aug 2010, itzig66 wrote:

    The actions taken by France are entirely legal under both French and EU law.

    Having spent time in both large European and large US cities in the past year, the numbers of active beggers in European cities is noticeable. They are largely female with a number of "invalids" and generally several children. In the US there are plenty of apparently destitute beggers they, in my experience, are predominately male and are relatively passive, they are also largely ignored by the population, both local and tourist.

    For me this experience points to large elements of begging in Europe being organised whilst that in the US is not.
    A government legaly taking action to eliminate this organised activity is absolutely justified.

    @ma2 In resposne to well written and thought out commentary you resort to playground retorts. This suggests that you have no worthwhile resposne or counter argument with your bias / ego preventing you simply responding that the comments are valid.
    Any worth your other comments might have is successfully masked by the rhetoric your posts are liberarly laced with. This would not be the case if you were genuinely interested in discussion and debate for the benefit of all. This leads to the sad conclusion that your participation is merely a trolling ego trip.
    By the way, how good is your French given that you lived for almost two years in France?

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  • 291. At 10:50am on 25 Aug 2010, itzig66 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 292. At 11:17am on 25 Aug 2010, Nik wrote:

    (apparenently quoting does not work exactly... anyway my comments are extremely easily distinguished from text from 283)

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  • 293. At 11:21am on 25 Aug 2010, torpare wrote:

    @266 democracythreat wrote:

    "And so I would make the case that until the English law begins to treat the Australian aboriginals with the same basic legal decency with which the English were treated by the Normans who conquered their lands in 1066..."

    The sheer effrontery of (plus plain comtempt for truth manifested by) these words took my breath away, literally. Even William the Conqueror is recorded as having subsequently come to view the process whereby the native anglo-saxons were dispossessed of title to their lands and replaced wholesale by William's feudal vassals - who (of course) followed him for the sake of the booty that would and duly did fall into their laps if he won - as having been unjustifiably ruthless, brutal and all-encompassing in its completeness.

    "Basic legal decency" indeed! You ought to brush-up on at least the rudimentary historical facts before coming out with preposterous statements like this. And I suggest you look up the word "anachronism" while you're at it.

    The truth is, of course, that you've given yourself away here. You are of that ilk which believes that to adjust the historical record to accord neatly with the requirements of a political ideology being propounded today is entirely legitimate and that inconvenient historical truths mustn't be allowed to get in the way when making propaganda. That puts you in some pretty sinister company.

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  • 294. At 11:30am on 25 Aug 2010, torpare wrote:

    @266 democracythreat wrote:

    "And so I would make the case that until the English law begins to treat the Australian aboriginals with the same basic legal decency with which the English were treated by the Normans who conquered their lands in 1066..."

    The sheer effrontery of (plus plain comtempt for truth manifested by) these words took my breath away, literally. Even William the Conqueror is recorded as having subsequently come to view the process whereby the native anglo-saxons were dispossessed of title to their lands and replaced wholesale by William's feudal vassals - who (of course) followed him for the sake of the booty that would and duly did fall into their laps if he won - as having been unjustifiably ruthless, brutal and all-encompassing in its completness.

    "Basic legal decency" indeed! You ought to brush-up on at least the rudimentary historical facts before coming out with preposterous statements like this. And I suggest you look up the word "anachronism" while you're at it.

    The truth is, of course, that you've given yourself away here. You are of that ilk which believes that to adjust the historical record to accord neatly with the requirements a political ideology being propounded today is entirely legitimate and that inconvenient historical truths mustn't be allowed to get in the way when making propaganda. That puts you in some pretty sinister company.

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  • 295. At 11:48am on 25 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    itzigzags;

    "@ma2 In resposne to well written and thought out commentary you resort to playground retorts. This suggests that you have no worthwhile resposne or counter argument with your bias / ego preventing you simply responding that the comments are valid."

    First of all, there is no reason or need for me to defend the US against statements and accusations based on the ignorance of Europeans in this discussion. The topic is Europe, not America. The so called well thought out counter argument to my assertions here is; 1) we Europeans are not that way and 2) you in America do it too, in fact you are worse than we are. This is a non sequitur. It is a typical defense when there is no effective defense, change the subject, accuse the accuser, attack the messenger. So as I stated in a thread above, what happens America is not germane to this discussion.

    But if you must know, the evidence is obvious to anyone who has visited America recently, in the last decade or so or has watched the changes that have occurred to it in my lifetime. No Americans including those whose penchant for blaming their own disappointments in life on others can deny that there has been enormous progress in race relations across the board. And it is still progressing. Europeans can peer with a microscope to find exceptions and in a society as large as America they will find many of them but the rule of thumb is that racial discrimination is fading quickly. And not only do we have laws, they are enforced. That is another major distinction between the US and Europe. Sometimes Europe looks good on paper but the reality is that it is very different in the real world. In fact I've found it to be a rather shabby place in many ways. I was reminded of this just the other day by someone who just got back from a two week visit. The report I got is that London is clean, Paris needs to be power washed for about two weeks (I'd guess more like two years or two decades.)

    "Any worth your other comments might have is successfully masked by the rhetoric your posts are liberarly laced with."

    One man's well reasoned argument is another's empty rhetoric. That;s how I see much of what I read from Europeans posting here, empty rhetoric based on lies.

    "This would not be the case if you were genuinely interested in discussion and debate for the benefit of all. This leads to the sad conclusion that your participation is merely a trolling ego trip."

    I am here to present a point of view most Europeans never get to hear and do not believe is as widely held in the US as I claim. In fact by American standards, my views are often considered moderate. I'm sure you don't believe that either.

    "By the way, how good is your French given that you lived for almost two years in France?"

    Good enough to know when I've been insulted in French and return one at least as sharp that Francophiles fully understand.

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  • 296. At 11:52am on 25 Aug 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Pity there is small demand for gypsy singing/dancing in Europe Europe.

    In Russia a self-employed group can always make a buck arranging a deal with a restaurant/cafe, showing up, say, on weekend evenings.

    To mutual satisfaction; Gypsy folk like singing and like being paid for it.
    Russians have it enbedded in our culture that a party without gypsy singing and dancing is uncomplete eh and a MODEST ECONOMICAL birthday or a wedding Not the full flare thing :o)

    Long mutual training! :o)))))))))))))

    But without a demand of course.

    Bt by all other ways eh mentioned above :o) Gypsy folk also make money in Russia :o))))))))

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  • 297. At 12:33pm on 25 Aug 2010, Nik wrote:

    Re296: Haha Alice, indeed! Same in Romania, same in Bulgaria, same in Greece. In Greece for example, there is a whole discussion that so much was the involvement of the gipsies in the music business that in some cases (mostly for mainland music, as gipsies are not in any substantial numbers on the islands) what we perceive as Greek folk is actually Greek folk as seen from the gipsy perspective (refer to all these amazing clarinet solos and such).

    Indeed a wedding party without a gipsy band playing folk is a waste of money. Hehe...

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  • 298. At 1:06pm on 25 Aug 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @295 MarcuAureliusII
    “I am here to present a point of view most Europeans never get to hear and do not believe is as widely held in the US as I claim. In fact by American standards, my views are often considered moderate. I'm sure you don't believe that either.”
    As far as the issue of the racial discrimination is being discussed, I must agree that America is ahead of Europe, and in particular, ahead of the EU where the integration irreversible processes are counteracted by many EU/national government restrictions, cultural traditions that differ from state to state, historically cumulated prejudices that are in the origin of many xenophobic acts, etc.
    What I am certain of, is, that the Americans, at least the majority of them, do not share your extremist anti-European stance on many other topics that are being discussed here, to start by the educational level of our citizens and to finish with the taste of our wines and national kitchens. I have called at Baton Rouge in the early 80s as a chief mate of a merchantman. Irrespectively of the fact that our vessel flew a flag of a communist country, I clearly sensed that the Americans (all of those we got in touch with in the harbour and downtown) addressed us very warmly, with sincere sympathy and curiosity. They apparently had some kind of a natural respect to Europe and to the Europeans. I think you have not the moral right to step here on behalf of your compatriots on such sensible and delicate issues that concern mainly Europe and the EU.
    Regards from Sofia

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  • 299. At 1:11pm on 25 Aug 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Niki for me it is hard to say any thing on gypsy life style in Europe.
    I know home things only.

    From the article it appears Europe Europe :o) gypsy folks don't want
    French id-s or passports or whatever.

    How they get those benefits then and welfare how is it called?
    is beyond me. If they are uncountable - how they get any money from the French state?


    In Russia Gypsies want Rssian passports. Otherwise any eh the new word

    'policeman" :o) will extract bribes out of them until there is no tomorrow. For skulkying around without a passport.

    So a passport is a protection measure against the state.

    Well, then. on getting a Russian passport - that's about it. Because there is no wellfare :o) worth applying for :o))))) or possible to obtain :o))) in Russia. So then, i guess then the gypsy are free, like everyone else, to do what they please and figure out how to survive.
    Nobody cares. When they cross the line very much - "police" does something. Arrests-court-prizon, like with everyone else.

    If the lines are not crossed, I mean, nobody complains much, of a gypsy settlement nearby - nothing happens.

    Like someone mentioned above - these travellers do prefer to live permanently on one spot :o), and desirably - not to move about much :o)

    Like all normal people. A dwelling, organised somehow, permanent camps.

    For enterprising eh activities - they though travel away from where they live. No idiots. So that locals won't complain and nothing happens with the camp.
    This seems to be the arrangement.

    But overall, given the amount of troubles in Russia - gypsy crimes are not crimes, but innocent kindergarten how to say , mini-bikini, UN-DANGEROUS minor things.
    You won't walk on your own will into a gypsy camp I think :o) but that's me. But if you do you won't be killed.
    Gypsy are not killers. They don't kill anybody never heard of. Don't capture into captivity as slaves.
    Compared to Caucasus - ha! Basically you risk nil in a gypsy camp apart from losing some minor cash. One way or another ;o)))))) but then this is a custom

    And really - Gypsy "problem" is the least that worries me in the world in the list of my problems :o)))))) But then of course all is relative and in other societies problems are ranked differently.

    You are simply spoiled! :o))))

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  • 300. At 1:26pm on 25 Aug 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @ 296 AliceInWonderLand @297 Nik
    In our orthodox world the Gyspsy band is an omnipresent spice to any folk festival, wedding party and the like, especially in the countryside.
    However, I clearly make a distiction between our Gypsy musical performances /that are much closer to the national folklore/ and those of the Russian classic gypsy bands that became famous all over the world with such marvelous pieces of the immortal Russian trend of romances, such as "Dark eyes".
    Cheers my brothers! I love both of you...
    "Mi ne mojem jit' bez shampanskogo, i bez starogo, bez tziganskogo..."
    (fr. "We certainly can't live without the champagne, and without the old Gypsy band...").
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXNh_4K287g

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  • 301. At 1:38pm on 25 Aug 2010, Nik wrote:

    Well guess what Alice: from India down to Persia, Minor Asia, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Germany, France, Spain and everywhere else the gipsies went they are pretty much the same lot occupied with pretty much the same business : 1) musicians, 2) metal recyclers 3) petty-thiefs...

    They are a colourfull adjastable and often loveable lot, only if they live substantially far away from you and you see them playing in the local band or asking to buy (for next to free) your old metal stuff or selling plastic chairs and such. If they come and live right next to you then you mathematically in for quite a lot of trouble. Do not get this wrong, gipsies are not bad people, in fact I like them a lot. But their nomadic way of life is fundamentally constrasting with the totality of the host societies and as such it is creating friction and trouble.

    From there on, I also stress like you that gipsy crime while existing is not extremely harmful and is 100% predictable and containable much to the contrast of other types of crime like Albanian crime in Balkans or Algerian crime in France etc. which is extremely more lethal and hits a society at a wider part. Hence, when Sarko gets occupied with a few hunreds of imported gipsies he simply wishes to deflect the public attention from the major issue. What burns the French society is not the gipsies but the Arabs. Like or hate it, call whatever you like the French, that is what occupies them most.

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  • 302. At 1:47pm on 25 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #257 Ellinas

    The Roma refered to in this Blog should not be equated to those you know , who live in houses , with jobs , are Christians and go to church .
    Neither should the Roma be refered to as coming from Romania , as if they were Romanian . They come from India originally but have settled to a large extent in eastern Europe and all over Europe . Large numbers of Nomadic Roma are becoming static on the edge of large cities all over Europe , making a living by begging , pickpocketing , handbag snatching , cat burglary , holding people at knifepoint to hand over money and valuables , even rape and murder as happened in Rome last year , causing uproar to be rid of the Roma . These people are not poor , they don't want to live in houses or send their children to school . It is not the case that people hate Roma as a people ; but there is a limit to what law abiding indiginous citizen can put up with .

    You mention 500,000 Romanians going to Italy . The Romanian language is very similar ; Rumanians will do all the labouring and menial domestic work that Italians will no longer do . It is true that gangs of Romanian criminals have come to Italy in recent years ; but the majority are good citizens , very kind and hard working , wonderful at caring for the elderly .

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  • 303. At 1:57pm on 25 Aug 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @ 299 AliceInWonderLand
    Alice, I guess it is high time to invite Nikolay to the Smolenks Forum.
    Regards

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  • 304. At 1:58pm on 25 Aug 2010, itzig66 wrote:

    ma2 Given that it is yourself that introduces the comparsion between Europe and the US with your assertations of US superiority over European decadence and irrelevence your comments are hopelessly deluded.
    The comments you make in 278, 279 and 281 in response to reasoned commentary or questions are of a playground variety. The original commentary or question asks no justification of the US. Managing to work that claim into your response to me actually demonstates the exact defence you are attempting to claim others are using. You are a humourous chap, unintentionly i suspect.
    I'm also not so sure that your assertations of such dramatic progress in the US are accurate.
    The US is now largely a conformist society, this can be seen in it's media output or indeed by just walking down the street and speaking to people. That does not mean that the individuals thoughts have actually changed all that much, in fact a argument could be constructed that whilst the US hides and denies it's issues Europe hangs it's dirty washing out in the open in a truly honest fashion...As for your strange comments re cleanliness, Washington DC i find relatively clean but NY is a mess, don't get me started on Baltimore, but so what?
    On the being insulted in French, are you sure, maybe your hatred stems from a simple misunderstanding, he was just asking if you wanted more cafe...

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  • 305. At 2:19pm on 25 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    To those who take the moral high ground equality for all , political correctness , human rights . This situation that the Roma cause in many cities is akin to when a cities respectable district is full of prostitutes at night , so that residents cannot go out of their front door in the evening and night without the risk of being jossled or molested . I am not quoting a hypothetical , that actually happens . It is all very well for Americans to pontificate , when they may have been to Europe once , long ago and have no first hand knowledge of the situation . The USA is another place, quite different , but also with major problems . There is no comparison between American ethnic problems and European .

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  • 306. At 4:18pm on 25 Aug 2010, MacTurk wrote:

    10. At 5:33pm on 19 Aug 2010, sadmanmike wrote"Good for the French, only wish our goverment had some backbone and would expell all from abroad who do not work full time". And what would you propose for all from "home" who do not work full-time? I understand that the proportion of the British population of working age which does not work, either full- or part-time, is scandalously high?
    It is hard to have a military and a foreign policy when you have to carry so much dead-weight. Income support or aircraft carriers?
    54. At 12:54pm on 20 Aug 2010, Andrew Taggart wrote "Franch is a democracy. Democracy is, and should be, about rule by the majority. Every other system is rule by a minority and is ruibbish". Sorry, but you are wrong. France is a republic, which means there are certain things, normally specified in the constitution of that republic, that CANNOT be overthrown by the majority.
    83. At 01:04am on 21 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote"The issue here is with those people that are not here to integrate with the society but to steal and beg from the society."

    If stealing and begging were deportable crimes, after WWII the US would have kicked Europe down the road like a rusty tin can". Says it all really!



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  • 307. At 4:39pm on 25 Aug 2010, oulematu wrote:

    @Nik, 287:

    Sorry, but your responses are a pile of gibberish which makes no sense, bears no relevance to my post and follows no apparent logical order. To answer your nonsensical questions one by one: To my knowledge I am of European origin although I do not know why it should make a difference in this discussion, what exactly it means and how I would be in a position to prove it without hiring an expensive family tree search investigator. You are indeed correct that the views expressed by me, like any other poster including yourself, are mine only and do not represent the views of other people, let alone an entire continent of people. I will not let the likes of you dictate on which points I can or cannot express a view - I feel entitled to comment as I please. I am neither qualified nor inclined to make any comments on the Middle East of which I know next to nothing and in which I have only limited interest at this point in my life. I fail to see why you assume that I have never met a Roma. Whatever may be the statistically prevailing characteristics of the Roma, that does not give the constitutional democratic governments of Europe, or Europe's majority population, a license to engage in abuse against this ethnic group. I am sorry to hear that you wear attacked by a bunch of losers in England; I for my part have been attacked by members of the "Blood & Honour" organization. I think the common denominator is ethnic intolerance/human stupidity/fascist violence and you are drawing the wrong lessons from this incident. As your rightly point out, the correct course of action, instead of expulsions, is for the French authorities to apply French law as they would in any other case. In keeping with your suggestion I will continue to educate myself on matters of human rights and constitutional freedoms so that I can improve my ability to articulately communicate these basic principles even to ignorant individuals such as yourself.

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  • 308. At 4:47pm on 25 Aug 2010, oulematu wrote:

    @torpare, 286:

    I am glad that we mostly agree. I also agree that each individual, including the Roma, should be held responsible for his actions; legally, economically and (but only in terms of personal conscience) morally. Nevertheless, I find that it is primarily up to the majority population to try to produce a livable environment for all society members including minority individuals. A society which provides no viable life options for an entire ethnic group spectacularly fails in this objective to which - in my view - any responsible and free society should naturally aspire. It is irresponsible (and ultimately also damaging from an economic point of view) to waste human potential in this fashion and it is inconsistent with human freedom and dignity to subject minority members to abusive treatment.

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  • 309. At 5:11pm on 25 Aug 2010, oulematu wrote:

    @torpare: Sorry, you also asked what oulematu stands for. I chose this nickname to commemorate the late Oulematou Niangadou, a young au-pair lady who was murdered a few years ago, together with a two-year old baby, in Antwerps by the family of a leading extremist Flemish politician. Apparently, the Belgian state recently ruled that her survivors are entitled to no compensation given her status as an illegal immigrant.

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  • 310. At 6:59pm on 25 Aug 2010, torpare wrote:

    "The so called well thought out counter argument to my assertions here is; 1) we Europeans are not that way and 2) you in America do it too, in fact you are worse than we are. This is a non sequitur. It is a typical defense when there is no effective defense, change the subject, accuse the accuser, attack the messenger. So as I stated in a thread above, what happens America is not germane to this discussion".

    That statement is a falsehood (I can only assume deliberate, because I already refuted it once). You evidently work on the assumption that if you go on repeating a lie often enough it will be believed. Dr. Goebbels would have been proud of you. The only person you're fooling is yourself but it's clear you're incapable of understanding that.

    "I am here to present a point of view most Europeans never get to hear and do not believe is as widely held in the US as I claim". That point of view being boiler-plated, rabid, xenophobia (which you manifest, in spades).

    "In fact by American standards, my views are often considered moderate. I'm sure you don't believe that either". Oh we do, Homer, we do (We only wish we didn't, but there it is...).

    "Good enough to know when I've been insulted in French and return one at least as sharp that Francophiles fully understand". Wow, and you're modest with it... (btw, it's "francophones").

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  • 311. At 7:24pm on 25 Aug 2010, torpare wrote:

    @309 oulematu wrote:

    "@torpare: Sorry, you also asked what oulematu stands for. I chose this nickname to commemorate the late Oulematou Niangadou, a young au-pair lady who was murdered a few years ago, together with a two-year old baby, in Antwerps by the family of a leading extremist Flemish politician. Apparently, the Belgian state recently ruled that her survivors are entitled to no compensation given her status as an illegal immigrant".

    I'm absolutely devastated to hear that, and I'm not in the least surprised that you feel as you do about European hypocrisy. Your empathy does you credit. For what it's worth, I would regard the position taken by the Belgian authorities as unconscionable and utterly inhumane. It's almost enough to put me in the same corner as you-know-who, except that I harbour some doubts about his humanity too.

    Concerning your #308: I share your sentiments unreservedly.

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  • 312. At 9:28pm on 25 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:

    ~309. At 5:11pm on 25 Aug 2010, oulematu,

    However, as Hans Van Temsche had no money or assets of his own, the money would come from a central compensation fund for the victims of violent crime.

    The fund was set up in 1985 after a series of violent robberies carried out by the so-called “Nivelles Gang”.

    Illegal immigrants get nothing

    To qualify for compensation from the fund, a victim must either have Belgian nationality or have the correct papers entitled him or her to reside in or visit Belgium.

    However Oulematou Niangadou was living and working here illegally.

    She had entered Belgium on a visa that had expired by the time she was killed.

    Consequently, the Commission for Financial Help to the Victims of Deliberate Acts of Violence has refused to pay up.

    The Justice Ministry sent Oulematou Niangadou’s family a letter informing them of the Commission’s decision.

    oulematu, just what do you expect, eh, she was a clandestine, sans papiers, please cut the bulls**t. The area of Antwerp is very far right and detestable and has been even before WWII when it declared itself free of Jews before the Germans did. But never ever expect a person who has not conformed to the law being able to use the law, no matter how merited. Rights are earned, they are not a right, and with rights go responsibilities, this Lady was unfortunate but she was not legally in Belgium and therefore was a worker on the 'black', no taxes, no social, d'accord eh.

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  • 313. At 10:00pm on 25 Aug 2010, quietoaktree wrote:

    #312 Buzet23

    ´Rights are not a Right ´

    They are given to YOU by others ?

    A very interesting twist on Human Rights and the many `Bills of Right´

    --Expected from Communists or Fascists and Buzet 23 ????

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  • 314. At 01:52am on 26 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    generalassimo #298

    "I have called at Baton Rouge in the early 80s as a chief mate of a merchantman. Irrespectively of the fact that our vessel flew a flag of a communist country, I clearly sensed that the Americans (all of those we got in touch with in the harbour and downtown) addressed us very warmly, with sincere sympathy and curiosity. They apparently had some kind of a natural respect to Europe and to the Europeans."

    Well since you spent an entire day in downtown Baton Rouge 25 years ago and found the natives friendly I guess you know more about American attitudes towards Europe and Europeans than I do. After all, I've only live here all of my life minus two years.

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  • 315. At 01:55am on 26 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    itzigzags #304;

    "I'm also not so sure that your assertations of such dramatic progress in the US are accurate."

    Oh yeah? What would we have to do to prove it to you, something drastic like elect a black man as President? Isn't that asking a bit much?

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  • 316. At 04:24am on 26 Aug 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    --✄-- The Roma referred to in this Blog should not be equated to those you know , who live in houses , with jobs, are Christians and go to church.
    Neither should the Roma be referred to as coming from Romania , as if they were Romanian . They come from India originally but have settled to a large extent in eastern Europe and all over Europe. --✄--

    Are you kidding? You really know nothing about them their complexity & integration issues.

    Between crime reports and integration...Photo of nomad reality in Italy

    We, as a country, have resolve the Greek Romas problem with success long ago whilst in Italy still fighting against them like in ponticelli (Napoli), Milano and Roma.

    That's why i spoke to my #257 post about Greek Romas living in houses, with jobs, Orthodox Christians (referring to that as another integration factor with the whole Greek society) and hard working people.

    The story that came from Asia and most of all from India trough centuries is well know to everybody...but who cares...today are citizens of European Eastern nations as well as Greeks.
    So! In Romania are living 550.000 Romas of Orthodox Christian religion and like i mention to my previous post of the 500,000 Romanians going to Italy...by the above article 50.000 of the 160.000 Romas living in Italy came from Romania and 70,000 have Italian citizenship

    --✄-- Romanians will do all the labouring and menial domestic work that Italians will no longer do. --✄--

    That's a so called "Leggenda Metropolitana". Quite the opposite is happening. There are the employers who want the Romanians instead of the Italians because the Romanians know nothing about their rights as well as they happily work in the underground & black economy with no social insurance, with minimum salary, with 12 hours a day non stop work and with no work safety and often blackmailed by the local Mafia.


    --✄--It is true that gangs of Romanian criminals have come to Italy in recent years--✄--

    TRUE

    --✄-- but the majority are good citizens, very kind and hard working, wonderful at caring for the elderly. --✄--

    TRUE


    Back to the Romas...First you said: Large numbers of Nomadic Roma are becoming static on the edge of large cities all over Europe...

    and secondly you admit that: they don't want to live in houses.

    Decide with your self what they really do and want because, with a small dose of sarcasm, a house is pretty Static to me...

    --✄-- even rape and murder as happened in Rome last year , causing uproar to be rid of the Roma . These people are not poor , they don't want to live in houses or send their children to school. --✄--

    To what incident you referring too...

    --✄-- It is not the case that people hate Roma as a people; but there is a limit to what law abiding indigenous citizen can put up with. --✄--

    You live in Italy so must have heard that often the Local institutions make a lot of and easy money on behalf of the Romas situation by recycle them from time to time...and as institutional Mafia in Napoli says: Recycling garbages it's our most lucrative job.

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  • 317. At 06:36am on 26 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #316 Ellinas

    You are the one who thinks he knows all about Roma ; you decide what Roma really want .

    Evidently Greece has control of the situation , Italy and France have not . Perhaps the Greeks could teach the rest of Europe how to manage and integrate Romas .

    Living in Italy I have been well aware of the problems Roma are causing .
    When I say Roma are static ; that means in caravans and corrugated iron baraccas in unhealthy , unhygenic conditions . Static does not mean in houses as regular citizens , children all going to school , as you refer to in Greece .

    Quoting numbers is irrelevant ; we are all aware that there are many Roma who live in houses , working legitimately , christian churchgowers , honest respectable people . However that does not mean that there are not others who are effectively vagrants , begging and thieving from the inhabitants of prosperous cities .

    Corruption aside , Italy is a country that is politically impotent .
    There may indeed be Romanians who are employed for below the minimum salary ; but my experience is that they are generally very sharp and not easily taken in by crooks .
    In the case of the Refuse at Naples , its collection and desposal is completely in the hands of the Mafia , hence the problems of it not being collected . Whether or not Authorities pay Romanians below the minimum wage , I don't know ; but it is a fact that Italians , for the most part , will not do dirty rough jobs , like road building etc. .

    I doubt that nomadic Roma do any of that kind of work ; there are much richer pickings to be had in the cities , as I wrote in my previous post .
    Children are trained , first to pick pockets ; then as adolescents and teenagers , catburglary , so they are still under age if they are caught .

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  • 318. At 06:49am on 26 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #316 Ellinas

    PS. Look up " Rape by Roma in Rome "and read for yourself .

    I see the woman didn't die , but she was knifed and raped .

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  • 319. At 08:40am on 26 Aug 2010, lacerniagigante wrote:

    "It is a shame that such nationalistic and self-centered tendencies are not equally shared by the United Kingdom..."

    Why a shame?

    One unarguable historic act that goes to Britain's credit (if we except her extra-European territories) is that it did not participate in any way to the global persecution or annihilation of various European minorities (including Roma populations) that characterized the first half of last century.

    Talking at a universal level there aren't many achievements Britain can boast, but having ultimately resisted fascism and violent racism one is definitely one of them.

    Meanwhile countries whose government are now preaching "Universal" values like France and the USA, should be careful about their past and ***current*** treatment of minorities, including Roma and immigrants.

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  • 320. At 08:51am on 26 Aug 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @ 314 MarcusAureliusII
    Mark, what you posted here is an argument. However, I guess you shall agree that the first impressions are the right impressions.
    Besides, here in Bulgaria, there are already a sustainable American presence: two military bases (your outposts in South Eastern Europe), a huge diplomatic presence, many businessmen. The impressions got confirmed.
    Regards

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  • 321. At 09:00am on 26 Aug 2010, lacerniagigante wrote:

    Re 1. At 12:59pm on 19 Aug 2010, AlanLeon wrote:

    "Furthermore, they chose the name "Gypsies" themselves in the sixteenth century, so there's no need to call them "Roma"."

    By writing what you wrote you're choosing the name of "Superficial Ignorant" for yourself, but this is not a reason enough to call you such.

    "Gypsies" is just an English corruption of "Egyptians" (hardly something the Gypsies could have chosen, given that the majority had never heard of English in the 16th century). It is based on the misconception that some of the Rom populations originated form Egypt.

    "Roma" is a modern construct to group a heterogeneous set of disparate ethnic groups spread throughout Europe, parts of Middle-East and even Northern Africa. The grouping is based on linguistic bases and was central to understanding that many Indian languages (Hindi, Urdu, Gujarati, Persian, Kurdish) and European languages (Germanic, Latin, Slavic, Celtic). In fact, some Roma people in Germany prefer to be called Sinti, which some speculate derives from Hindi.

    Note that the Roma themselves do not like to be grouped. While we see them through our white-European goggles as one, they have tribes and subtribes, e.g., Kalderash, Sepeci, Arli, which may detest each other, in a way reminiscent of the way Gadja (non-Roma) people detest the Roma.

    Also, many Roma or Gypsies, prefer to be called Sinti, Manus, Kale, and other names.

    "Roma" and "Romani" are the agreed minority names in the EU legislation.

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  • 322. At 09:00am on 26 Aug 2010, lacerniagigante wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 323. At 09:03am on 26 Aug 2010, Lord_P wrote:

    @313

    Surely rights come with the expectation that you will respect other people's? Everyone can crow about their rights but very few their responsibilities to society at large. If people are law abiding fine, if not well, it's why there's a legal system.

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  • 324. At 09:42am on 26 Aug 2010, oulematu wrote:

    @312, Buzet:

    Thank you for your comment. You ask me what I expect, that she was a "clandestine" and that I should cut the bulls**t.

    Well, what I actually would have expected first and foremost is that this situation would have never happened in Belgium, i.e., an au-pair lady, and the two-year old baby whom she took care of, would not be murdered by a family member of a Vlaams Belang parliamentary politician. And although this shocking situation happened, it did not even cause much of an uproar.

    You are telling me that the victim should have been on notice because Antwerp is a notorious far-right city. I do not accept that; if that is now the official policy in the EU, then I suggest that the EU should maintain an official list of locations which are off-limits to non-whites and the EU should be liable whenever a violent racially or ethnically motivated crime occurs outside the designated locations. From a practical point of view, half Europe is unsafe to non-whites, so what are they supposed to do about it? If I recall correctly, there was even a travel warning for non-whites during the 2006 World Cup in Germany - isn't that quite shocking to you? Many non-whites now may know better and may choose to avoid Antwerp, or Flanders altogether, but what about other locations in the EU? I can tell you it is quite unworkable for a non-white person to be constantly on the look-out in the EU to determine which locations are safe at what times and which ones are likely be expose a non-white person to Nazi violence.

    I am also sceptical that the killer and his family had no assets of their own. In these cases, it is important to hold liable not just the killer but also all other direct and indirect perpetrators. This was a case of Nazi violence which is normally organized (in fact in this case there was even an official political party), and I am sceptical that no one else can be held liable in addition to the killer. Did neither Vlaams Belang nor any of its members or active adherents have no assets of their own? This seems to be a case of sloppy operation of the legal system - I guess in a country like Belgium that is the natural result of a lacking political will to punish the perpetrators in an inconvenient case.

    You are also telling me that rights are earned, but this is clearly not the case for certain fundamental human rights such the right to live. Or are you telling me that if someone is not good enough, he/she should be simply gunned in the street without any redress?

    Beyond legal rules, I also do not see the policy rationale for excluding a murder victim from the compensation scheme depending on her immigration status. Even persons without the right immigration papers are humans and not trash. If compensation of victims and their survivors is the policy rationale, then the status of the victim should make no difference if the attack occurred in Belgium and morever the perpetrator was Belgian. This also seems to be a special case, because the killing spree was perpetrated by a family member of a Vlaams Belang parliamentary politician in (albeit excessive) application of its political rhetoric and goals. I also doubt whether the killer checked the victims' immigration papers before executing them, and I would also argue that the two-year old baby should not be held responsible for its immigration status (and in fact I do not even know whether the baby was an illegal immigrant).

    Finally, if you feel very strongly about unpermitted au-pair workers, then you should primarily clamp down on those who hire them. If you get rid of one au-pair, they will always hire another one, so you need to go to the source - follow the money. Based on your statements I would otherwise get the impression that there is a plentiful supply of permitted child-care workers in Belgium who can perform the job anytime upon request at competitive rates, and the services of the au-pair lady were imposed on her illegal employer by coercion.

    This case is absolutely shameful and the Belgian state should at least exert some minimum effort if it allowed this shocking situation to occur in the first place.

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  • 325. At 09:43am on 26 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    lacerniagigante

    Re #319 & #321

    Some really good comments, informative, accurate and in contrast to some on here very fairly put with an eye to the humanitarian issues at the core of this topic.

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  • 326. At 09:45am on 26 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    AlanLeon

    Re #1 & repetition of #1

    However, as Your twice posted comment is entirely inaacurate (see #321) there is no need for anyone to do anything except make assumptions about Your research techniques.

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  • 327. At 09:53am on 26 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 328. At 10:24am on 26 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Oulematu

    Re #307 & the 'Greek'

    Your opening remarks, "..Sorry but your responses are a pile of gibberish which makes no sense, bears no relevance to my post and follows no apparent logical order..", are the observation of many of us!

    Join the club!

    There are countless (& often of tedious length only matched by their inaccuracy) examples through many topics on these Blogs where the Greek has simply ignored all 'reality' in pursuit of some ill-formed, illogical, unreasoned agenda all of his own.

    My advice (& I admit to not following it myself at times): Steer clear unless You want to wade through masses of unrelated, unsubstantiated & at times wholly deceptive verbiage that amount to very little that is either constructive or useful in these debates.

    Meanwhile, I would say I found Your comments very interesting and casts fresh perspective on areas of the topic:

    E.g. #308 "...It is primarily upto the majority population to try to produce a liveable environment for all society members including ethnic minority. A society which provides no viable life-options for an entire ethnic-group, spectacularly fails.."

    Certainly at the core is this dichotomy: Those who write on here damning the 'roma' would be the first to complain if their 'rights' were infringed - - however, alongside their 'rights, come 'responsibilities' as Citizens of the EU and/or individiual States - - among the foremost 'responsibility' is surely the provision of adequate 'choices'. For 'roma' to make choices that are positive and contribute to the larger society they most certainly must have their children educated & able to take a full & proper part and not be treated/regarded as the 'apartheid' societal element of EUrope.

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  • 329. At 10:41am on 26 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    MargaretHoward

    Re #277

    Quote, "..**you people** (an entire peoples, like, maybe the 'roma'!?).." Unquote.

    Did You write that!?

    Quote, "...a new version of **'lebensraum'** ('living space' in the east by enslaving nations!?).." Unquote.

    Did You really write that?

    Quote, "..pious condemnation of **our** (those fine upstanding Europeans or just the Scots!?) treatment of Gypsies.." Unquote.

    Did You really, truly write that?

    Quote, "..Piffle and balderdash clothed in lawyerly pomposity.." Unquote.

    Did You really, truly, honestly write that?

    I only ask because just a few Blogs ago You were taking me to task non-stop and holding up DemocThreat as the bastion of exactitude, logic & reason!

    He can take care of himself: Of that I am sure.

    However, You Margaret, You get the nomination for, 'Person Who Most Times Gets a Bee In Their Bonnet Instead of the Point'!

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  • 330. At 11:11am on 26 Aug 2010, PKDUB wrote:

    MA2

    at 295 you said anything about America wasn’t relevant to this discussion. In your first post at 33 you said America had evolved past discrimination, therefore, as a rebuttal, all comments relating to discrimination in the US are relevant.

    more hypocrisy at 51: “Europia sees itself as a Eutopia and finds no reason to change”. Is this supposed to be in contrast to the USA? Isn’t the whole reason you’re on here because you hate criticism of the USA and want to retaliate? Or are you still pretending that is was a European who started the comparison? (it was you at post 33). I know you’re still annoyed about some insults 35 years ago, but were you telling them how fantastic USAtopia is and how rubbish Europe is at the time? And you’re surprised at the reaction. It’s the same as your petty nationalism and the reason you spend so much time on European media to exact some childish revenge, the childishness and hurt pride is exemplified at post 278.

    Again you bring up America in 51, only the 2nd post to do so after your own at 33. Also, needless to say, your assertion re the legality of the deportation was wrong, and you had nothing to say about the deportation from New York of squeegee people, beggars etc to other parts of the USA. As the USA is a country, not a group of countries, those sent out of NY had no comparable requirement to be a legal resident of the state, as do citizens of other EU states who have an obligation regularise their residency and not to become a burden on their hosts.

    You failed to answer any comparisons that showed intolerance in America and attempted to justify this by citing your paranoid delusions of European ignorance and prejudice of America, and also by the false assertion that America was not relevant to this topic. It is relevant because you brought it into the discussion and your whole purpose in being here is to repeat, ad nauseum, that you have a utopia and Europe is a dystopia and by your own ignorance prove that this is not true.

    You mentioned the progress made in the USA in the last ten years. You were in Europe briefly around the time of the first oil crisis, circa 1973-75 and you think you’re qualified to comment on modern day Europe? Yeah I know I know, we never change, I've heard that before from someone living about 35 years in the past.

    You accused Europeans en masse of prejudice against Roma specifically and other nationalities, ethnicities etc. generally. Then at post 123: “Oh thank you for presenting the universal European penchant for stereotyping and villifying (sic) entire populations”. Don’t you find it ironic that this clown calls ALL Europeans racist? I’d say pots and kettles but his racism and prejudice against Europeans has been proven by this statement; the same has not been proven of all 500 million of us.

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  • 331. At 11:24am on 26 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Ellinas

    Re #257

    ".General Petreus... in Afghanistan.." In response to a Comment about the 'Roma'!

    Have You completely lost the plot!?

    PLus, yet again, You provided a link and it is clear You did not read it carefully enoo9ugh or maybe misunderstood in some manner.

    The US State Dept. Report on Albania was NOT claiming all Albania was thieves, prostitution etc.
    The State Dept. Report WAS claiming there IS widespread activity of that criminal sort and went on to point out in detail 'Women, Children & Men' were being exploited in & out of Albania.

    Thus, in short, NO, only Your friend, the Greek is branding an entire Albanian Nation as unfit.
    You would appear to be hedging around supporting that very unpleasant, extremist's viewpoint!

    I would urge You to reconsider, but I have a hunch, such is Your enmity of the US-UK (General Petreus!!!! In a debate about 'Roma'???????????!) You will be unable to rationalise Your perspective anymore than You managed in our previous díscussion.

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  • 332. At 11:26am on 26 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    BBC?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

    WHAT IS GOING ON???????????????????????????????????????????????

    EVERYTIME I POST A COMMENT ON THESE BLOGS IT IS NOT SHOWN, BUT THE FIRST COMMENT BY AlanLeon COME UP AGAIN, GIVING THE IMPRESSION IT IS BEING RE-PUBLISHED???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

    COME ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    WAKE UP SOMEBODY IN THE I.T. DEPT & SORT IT OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  • 333. At 11:27am on 26 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 334. At 12:08pm on 26 Aug 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    332 CBW writes:
    "EVERYTIME I POST A COMMENT ON THESE BLOGS IT IS NOT SHOWN"

    Maybe it's a hint - after all the moderators seem to have to refer you more than most other 'contributors'.

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  • 335. At 12:09pm on 26 Aug 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    332 CBW writes:
    "EVERYTIME I POST A COMMENT ON THESE BLOGS IT IS NOT SHOWN"

    Maybe it's a hint.

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  • 336. At 12:09pm on 26 Aug 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 337. At 12:11pm on 26 Aug 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    332 CBW
    COMMENT .. IS NOT SHOWN"

    Maybe it's a hint.

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  • 338. At 12:12pm on 26 Aug 2010, itzig66 wrote:

    Posts 308 and 328 make excellent points with regard to the responsibility of the majority to ensure that any minority has the opportunites and freedom to pursue the lifestyle they desire. However there is also a responsiblity in the opposite direction upon the minority, they should not have lassier faire to unilaterally impact their lifestyle choices upon the majority and expect no consequences.

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  • 339. At 12:20pm on 26 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    MargaretHoward

    So funny...

    You should be on stage....

    I'm sure there's a broom for sweeping it....

    Boom-booom!

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  • 340. At 12:34pm on 26 Aug 2010, Nik wrote:

    328. At 10:24am on 26 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
    """...Join the club! There are countless (& often of tedious length only matched by their inaccuracy) examples through many topics on these Blogs where the Greek has simply ignored all 'reality' in pursuit of some ill-formed, illogical, unreasoned agenda all of his own."""

    CBW, I have never claimed that all what you say on all issues is baseless. However, regarding the discussions we participate together I have only claimed that all what you said as-if trying to counter my argumentation has failed miserably - and evidently in absence of any real argument you find refuge to bitter personal attacks. This has been pinpointed to you by other people here.

    The best example I remember is some months back when you challenged me to point you the venomous politics of British in WWII which spread war in Balkans, inviting the Italians and then enforcing the German attack while crippling the defenses of the local nations, namely the Greeks, and which are responsible for the death of more than 2 million people (1 million in Serbia and 1 million in Greece) and the general wreckage of million others due to the further instability that the civil wars instigated by the British created and which are still visible in the region today.
    You asked for it and I gave you a lengthy answer in 3 huge messages with all shorts of details and all shorts of data and whatever anyone would want to get convinced the venomous role of the British in WWII.
    And what did you do? Not only you avoided the discussion, not only you refused to comment but you found refuge to personal attacks just like all that miserable line of Turks/pro-Turks that from times to times come here to drop their propaganda and run out when people start responding to them.

    While I resolved in not to bring again lengthy historical evidence on what I say and remain to a general presentation of my views without minding so much your childish objections which is of course much more suited for such threads as here in BBC. However, if there is anyone who genuinely is interested in learning a bit more he can ask me and I can tell him where to go and read.

    """My advice (& I admit to not following it myself at times): Steer clear unless You want to wade through masses of unrelated, unsubstantiated & at times wholly deceptive verbiage that amount to very little that is either constructive or useful in these debates."""

    Unsubstantiated claims? Which one dear? You could never ever pinpoint a single saying of mine as wrong and prove it wrong. You have far a tool long history of personally attacking me to have anymore nerve to call it unsubstantiated and deceptive verbiage or whatever.

    307. At 4:39pm on 25 Aug 2010, oulematu wrote:
    """@Nik, 287:
    Sorry, but your responses are a pile of gibberish which makes no sense"""

    They do seem to make perfectly sense to the people who have a basic knowledge. You do not have one on many matters. I can corner you on every single issue you refer - let me take a simple example like the below:

    Leave whatever irrelevancies you mention to us above and asnwer me this:

    - Do you wish common civic law to apply to gipsies?

    If yes, then that means the massive expulsion of gipsies from most of the sites they camp, the arrest of an important number of them for theft, burglaries and the fining of most of them for illegal financial activities.

    If not, then you are a racist and you put forward the caste-society. Evidently, one may deduct from previous views of yours that you strongly favour caste-like societies.

    I do not.

    """...bears no relevance to my post and follows no apparent logical order. To answer your nonsensical questions one by one:"""

    There you are. Above there is logic of 1+1=2 style. I guess you do not like when it is served like that cold on the plate isn't it?

    """...To my knowledge I am of European origin although I do not know why it should make a difference in this discussion, what exactly it means and how I would be in a position to prove it without hiring an expensive family tree search investigator."""

    "Oulematu" sounds too uneuropean for me. Your views do not comply that much with the average European thining. It is natural for me to imagine a non-European root of yours. Note that I do not respect so much people that hide their roots - it is the most basic sign of untrustworthness. You know what I am, you avoid telling what you are - it is the most basic sign of untrustworthness: no wonder you are in support of caste societies and unequal relations among people.

    """You are indeed correct that the views expressed by me, like any other poster including yourself, are mine only and do not represent the views of other people, let alone an entire continent of people."""

    Correct. Like my view are mine.

    """I will not let the likes of you dictate on which points I can or cannot express a view - I feel entitled to comment as I please."""

    You have mistaken my "kind of saying". It goes withoutsaying that you are entitled to speak as you like. But you are also entitled to a direct cold answer like the one I gave you.

    """I am neither qualified nor inclined to make any comments on the Middle East of which I know next to nothing and in which I have only limited interest at this point in my life."""

    That is lie of course since we saw in previous discussions you had a genuine interest in Middle Eastern culture being imbedded by force in Europe and against the democratic will of the massive majority of European people. Not that you would have any democratic worries - one that supports caste-societies would never have such worries.

    """I fail to see why you assume that I have never met a Roma."""

    Trust me it is obvious. By the way, anyone that has never met (i.e. approached to more than 10 meters) a gipsy in his life would ask the same.

    """Whatever may be the statistically prevailing characteristics of the Roma, that does not give the constitutional democratic governments of Europe, or Europe's majority population, a license to engage in abuse against this ethnic group."""

    Ehehe... abuse like? (speak and make us laugh).

    I guess tree-hugging is not just a way of life but a religion.

    """I am sorry to hear that you wear attacked by a bunch of losers in England; I for my part have been attacked by members of the "Blood & Honour" organization."""

    I do not mind that much about the bunch of losers, I just refer to the story to pinpoint to CBW the level that a small but quite visible part of the English society is currently at. Mind you, I make no speak of racism and such, I regard racism a natural trait of all living species including humans and I tend to distrust people who openly shout their non-raceness. I only make speak of low mentality, lack of culture, cheap aggressiveness and effeminate-bravado by several little men against 1 lone man.

    I am also sorry to learn you were attacked. I do not know the blood and honour organisation but I guess it is full of aggressive people that rather attack lone and practically defenseless people.

    """I think the common denominator is ethnic intolerance/human stupidity/fascist violence and you are drawing the wrong lessons from this incident."""

    Forget for once about ethnic intolerance and fascism. People can be extremely racist all while being perfectly non-violent and remaining legal and courteous towards people they are theoretically opposing. Down to the basics, the most racist ever act a human can do is the mother's preference to her own child rather than the neighbours' one. It is not only extremely rare but also unatural and quite shocking to have a mother showing the same affection to the neighbours' child in comparison to her own.

    """As your rightly point out, the correct course of action, instead of expulsions, is for the French authorities to apply French law as they would in any other case."""

    Great. You have answered my above question.

    """In keeping with your suggestion I will continue to educate myself on matters of human rights and constitutional freedoms so that I can improve my ability to articulately communicate these basic principles even to ignorant individuals such as yourself."""

    Critiscism accepted, I do not claim to know everything. But I am not as ignorant as you might think. And yes I claim to know gipsies, I speak to them, I have slept for months in the same rook during my army service. Do not lose the point, I am positevely positioned over them, I just recognise that their general lifestyle is contrasting the one of the mass of society as well as their conviction to continue this more than 1000 years old tradition everywhere they go (at least speaking about the bulk of them). A better management of this - overinflated issue as it is far from being the hottest - issue, it is to integrate in policies the possibility of social groups choosing a totally nomadic lifestyle like the one gipsies have chosen for more than 1 millenia now.

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  • 341. At 12:47pm on 26 Aug 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    --✄-- The US State Dept. Report on Albania was NOT claiming all Albania was thieves, prostitution etc.
    The State Dept. Report WAS claiming there IS WIDESPREAD criminal activity were 'Women, Children & Men' were being exploited in & out of Albania... --✄--

    By whom? Homer Simpson?

    --✄-- General Petreus! In a debate about 'Roma'?! --✄--

    General Petreus in a debate about 'You' and my worry for some "upgrade thinking" and it seems to me that you don't like to hear about Petreus and U.S respect & worldwide protection as well as being the subject of the U.S Law anymore...may i consider that a new life start by you?

    As for the debate about 'Roma' read carefully the other half of the post story...because you see...not everything is said by me is a P.M. to you.

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  • 342. At 12:58pm on 26 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #270

    "..Who is not socialist..?"

    Members of the Einzatsgruppen & those on this Blog who mysteriously fail to acknowledge any wrongdoing to 'roma' or others by them, but equally mysteriously & conveniently find a 'link' to UK Land Ownership that they attempt to relate as harmful to gypsies on a par with mass murder!

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  • 343. At 12:59pm on 26 Aug 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    332 cool_brush_work

    So crying boy...maybe the "genius Moss" of the BBC "IT Crowd" went for a coffee...let me help you and give you some technical advices for that..."Have you tried turning it off and on again?" and "Is it definitely plugged in?"

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  • 344. At 1:00pm on 26 Aug 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    314 Homer writes:
    "Well since you spent an entire day in downtown Baton Rouge 25 years ago and found the natives friendly I guess you know more about American attitudes towards Europe and Europeans than I do. After all, I've only live here all of my life minus two years."

    A bit like you then Homer. 2 hours in a Ratskeller in Bordeaux in 1949 and you are an expert in European history.

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  • 345. At 1:01pm on 26 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    MargaretHoward

    Re #335, #336 & #337

    Well, I never!

    I knew there was a hint of 'stalking' in Your responses, but to kindly have Your comments 'referred for further Moderation' alongside my own feeble offerings is really generosity to a fault!

    Whatever is coming over the BBC Mods!?

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  • 346. At 1:12pm on 26 Aug 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    345 CBW
    Sorry to disappoing you but no moderator involved, just a blib in the system. But talking about 'stalking'...

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  • 347. At 1:42pm on 26 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Ellinas

    Re #343

    MANY THANKS!

    YOur suggestions worked!

    Now, if You could just see Your way toward accepting there is a World out there that isn't 'pro' or 'anti' Greece & persuade that sad other Greek of the same because in all honesty nobody really cares that much then You will confirmed my opinion You are definitely an I.T.

    PS: If You don't know the other meaning, I'll leave You to work it out!

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  • 348. At 1:47pm on 26 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Ellinas

    Re ALL Your contributions:

    General Petreus and the 'roma'!

    It would make a great tabloid headline!

    Now, if You could just provide even one shred/iota of a logical, rational thought process that combines the Commander of US Armed Forces in Afghanistan with very unfortunate 'Roma' being victimised by a French President I'm sure it would make HEADLINE NEWS in all Papers across EUrope.

    Meanwhile, in other news... the Pope walked on the moon, a mouse walked on the moon, some fish walked on the moon...

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  • 349. At 4:08pm on 26 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #340

    I really must confess...
    I just give up thinking what is the actual context of Your contributions' content because I long ago grasped there is none... at least none that is worthwhile.

    I too recall & have it stored for reference: Our little spat re Britain & the Balkans circa WW2 etc. You NEVER proved a thing: You wrote a lot of lurid, unfounded allegations & produced so-called 'links' that in several portions directly CONTRADICTED Your viewpoint.

    The only accuracy is in Your description on here, "...3 huge messages..": That they were! All 3 were largely unsubstantiated twaddle with You as ever adding Your own running commentary about what they were supposed to expose and all through there was this glaring discrepancy... They proved nothing of the sort.

    Unfortunately for You, I see from #340, 'nothing of the sort' continues to be our best recognition factor for Your contributions:

    E.g. "..refer to the story (2 Greeks attacked by yobs in Sunderland, England) to pinpoint to cbw the level that a small but quite visible part of English society are at..":

    Absolutely NO, in reality the story 'pinpoints' 2 Greeks whom You know were attacked by some English in Sunderland - - it shows nothing at all about England/UK or come to that anymore than it would 'pinpoint' readers anything about the 2 victimised Greeks!
    This is where a most of Your supposed 'research'/'evidence'/'facts' always end up... You ASSUMING something & declaring it as FACT when everyone else reads SUPPOSITION.

    As for Your usual sniping at the 'Turkish' it just gets made worse by Your comment such as to "..Oulematu... sounds too un-european for me... Your views do not comply that much with the average European thinking..

    YUK! 'un-european' is exactly what in Your selective hearing/eyes!?

    And You then have the nerve to start lecturing on 'fascism & racism!

    Since when did You know the 'average' thoughts of the Asian-European, African-European, American-European never mind the original indigenous Europeans!?

    Taken with the vilification of Turkey etc. what a sad expose of Your true values & ethics!

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  • 350. At 5:46pm on 26 Aug 2010, oulematu wrote:

    Nik: It is simple. Live and let live. Simlifying somewhat, in a constitutional democracy laws should be enacted in order to protect individual rights (eg to prevent assault or damage to an individual) and the common resources (eg to prevent environmental damage) and should be proportional to the stated objective, but should not otherwise be used to enact private moral or religious beliefs, culture or lifestyle of the majority. Moral opprobrium by the majority, no matter how long-standing, is not enough to justify discriminatory treatment of minorities. A state cannot have a legitimate interest in disadvantaging an unpopular minority group simply because the group is unpopular. Fundamental rights of individuals cannot be put to popular vote, otherwise the majority (especially in situations where the majority knows that it will likely never be in the position of the minority - eg, as regards ethnicity) could use legislation as a weapon against the minority in violation of individual fundamental rights. If you actually read and apply your brain to decipher the meaning of my statements, you will surely after some intellectual effort understand what I am saying. Some examples to help you. Example 1: If someone of whatever origin commits a robbery, then the robber should be liable under any applicable criminal and civil law. Example 2: If someone lives in a dirty trailer or speaks the Roma language, then that in itself is not unlawful. Example 3: If someone acts in breach of construction laws, then administrative penalties may apply but deportation would usually be excessive. Simply deporting an unpopular group of people is either a show for stupid voters and/or it masks the inability or laziness of the French authorities to apply due process of law and to consider each case on its merits. As for your assumptions and judgments as to my origin, nickname, secret agenda, trustworthiness and my persona overall, I leave these aside as unfounded, irrelevant and not worthy of the readers' time. Beyond what I already disclosed, I will not share any additional personal details with you and do not want to know yours as I do not respect you as a person and do not wish to associate with you beyond the wish to make my comments as clear as possible to the readers of this thread. Unless you have anything of substance to add, I will ignore any further comments you might have. Thank you.

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  • 351. At 6:10pm on 26 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    oulematu

    Re #350

    Well written points on the 'roma' issue.

    Appreciated Your attempt to clarify how these Blog debates should be handled and where unfortunately some go wrong on occasion (myself) & others with a repetition that defies any semblance of rational behaviour.

    Cheers.

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  • 352. At 6:11pm on 26 Aug 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    --✄-- provide even one shred/iota of a logical, rational thought process that combines the Commander of US Armed Forces in Afghanistan with very unfortunate 'Roma' being victimised by a French President --✄--

    I don't know...it's also a mystery to me....(͡๏̯͡๏)...why don't you tell me?...Because you seem to me you are trying so hard to forcibly combine the two and by so doing, mean, that it's my personal opinion...and i wonder why since i never spoke about Petreus in relation to Sarkozy (actually never mention of him) and the Roma...you certainly get the wrong end of the stick..."Have you really tried turning it off and on again?"...you know what i mean!

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  • 353. At 7:01pm on 26 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Ellinas

    Re #352 & quote, "..I don't know... it's also a mystery to me... why don't you tell me?... and I wonder since I never spoke about Petreus in relation to Sarkozy... and the Roma.."

    The above is a plain & simple falsehood by You.

    In my #226 I wrote the following, " Whether 'albanian', 'roma', english'... every individual is entitled to the same respect & protection as well as being subject of the Law.."

    In Your #257 response You wrote (apart from weird 'gun' doodles), "..I suppose under the same gen. Petreus umbrella protection... and the US Laws is more than good for you.."
    You then added to that a 'link' to a site detailing a USA State dept. report on the 'roma'.

    With the above available for all to see for You to write and deny the connection between Your comments on 'Petreus' & 'roma' is astounding!

    You also know full well that I referred to Sarkozy because this Blog article is based around current events in France: For You to deny that Your comments on this Blog Topic are anything other than another unscrupulous and illogical attack on the USA is shameful.

    However, to some extent it is my fault for trying to engage You in reasoned discussion when blind prejudice affects all Your comments: I withdraw from this and any further contact with You.

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  • 354. At 10:36pm on 26 Aug 2010, crash wrote:

    Well done France the people of Gypsy decent,do not blend with in the communities they live among,often do not pay taxes and often say they need special treatment.If they opt to live this way do it in their own country.

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  • 355. At 11:08am on 27 Aug 2010, William wrote:

    While it is important that people aren't racist or xenophobic towards migrants or visitors.

    The reverse is also true. Migrants / visitors should be sensitive to cultural norms in that country or they risk giving themselves and others from their country a bad name. For example in Ireland; I've seen Roma break cultural taboos by go into pubs to beg or tugging out of peoples cloths. On one occasion I was grabbed from behind and heard money, I though I was been mugged... needless to say this doesn't leave a good impression.

    I wonder what would happen if a person from a different part of France lived in the same manner as the Roma, would they be sent home with money? The law should treat every group the same, otherwise a feeling of unfairness will develop. Which out of frustration and sense of injustice can lead to racist attitudes.

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  • 356. At 12:27pm on 27 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Peg How did anyone ever get to be this....

    "A bit like you then Homer. 2 hours in a Ratskeller in Bordeaux in 1949 and you are an expert in European history."

    Amazing, that within the space of just a few hours (actually the incident only took a few minutes) the Germans in that Rathskeller confirmed what I had only read about European antisemitism over a lifetime and the French indifference to what was happening only served to remind me how so many Europeans stood around indifferently when the holocaust was happening pretending and still pretending they didn't know what was going on right under their noses. The myth that they didn't was exploded by a book written by an American in the 1990s documenting how German soldiers working in the concentration camps sent photos back to their families with letters bragging about what fine work they were doing for the fatherland. It made me angry that we were spending so much American money, putting so many American soldiers at risk, and sacrificing in so many other ways to defend these people from the USSR and help them be prosperous so there wouldn't be yet another war in Europe. If one ever comes, I hope the next time Americans stay out of it. Not only isn't Europe worth saving IMO, it can't be saved from itself. The current crisis that goes far beyond the financial crisis precipitated by US banks prove that and that there is no solution for something as irrational as Europe.

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  • 357. At 1:02pm on 27 Aug 2010, Nik wrote:

    349. At 4:08pm on 26 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
    """Re #340
    I really must confess...
    I just give up thinking what is the actual context of Your contributions' content because I long ago grasped there is none... at least none that is worthwhile."""

    No. My contribution is simply not only not to your liking but also one that you cannot beat with any proper argumentation.

    """I too recall & have it stored for reference: Our little spat re Britain & the Balkans circa WW2 etc. You NEVER proved a thing: You wrote a lot of lurid, unfounded allegations & produced so-called 'links' that in several portions directly CONTRADICTED Your viewpoint."""

    My links contradicted? And how is it then that back then you completely forgot to pinpoint that to me but directly started the personal abuses? Do not push me start giving links here in that discussion.

    """The only accuracy is in Your description on here, "...3 huge messages..": That they were! All 3 were largely unsubstantiated twaddle with You as ever adding Your own running commentary about what they were supposed to expose and all through there was this glaring discrepancy... They proved nothing of the sort."""

    You are a man that would deny it is day and would call the sun moon if you did not like calling it a day. What can we do about it CBW?

    """Absolutely NO, in reality the story 'pinpoints' 2 Greeks whom You know were attacked by some English in Sunderland - - it shows nothing at all about England/UK or come to that anymore than it would 'pinpoint' readers anything about the 2 victimised Greeks!"""

    I am sorry but back in the late 90s there were about 45,000 Greek students studing in Britain out of which the majority if them, even those one who studied in universities situated in quite "posh areas" have a lot to say about the sad state of the British working class. Wake up CBW and face reality. Working class exists in all countries and such events can be reproduced but nothing really can be compared to the dire situation of the British working class.

    """This is where a most of Your supposed 'research'/'evidence'/'facts' always end up... You ASSUMING something & declaring it as FACT when everyone else reads SUPPOSITION."""

    Knowledgeable people of same opinion just love to learn. Knowledgeable people of different opinion just avoid discussion. Ignorant people of neutral opinions either hear or show no interest. Ignorant peope of opposing opinions just resolve to personal attacks.

    As said, whatever I will say you will call the day night.

    To talk to you I would need to bring the discussion in a legal framework where we would be watched by a panel of layers and where you would be forced to read and accept all the proof I would bring to you and same for me for whatever you would be able to bring in for me.

    It would be amusing to do but too costly.

    """As for Your usual sniping at the 'Turkish' it just gets made worse by Your comment such as to "..Oulematu... sounds too un-european for me... Your views do not comply that much with the average European thinking.."""

    You are far from being able to understand my position which is firm: there is nothing like a parhtenogenesis in peoples' opinions. The background of people is directly related to their view points no matter if people of same origins have seemingly diverging and often opposing views. If someone is protesting in anonimity against Sarkozy's immigration policy and if this someone is a second generation Algerian in France then that is something interesting to note. I state always my general background (Greek, born and raised in Greece & lived half of my life around Europe for studies and work - that is all) and that is what I expect from people to do. People that refuse to state or lie on their general background are by definition untrustworthy and I am bound to take their opinion as of no particular value.

    """YUK! 'un-european' is exactly what in Your selective hearing/eyes!?"""

    "Europe" is a Greek word. What more natural than a Greek to define it as he likes? You are free to define it as you like of course but that it your problem. If you do not like go find another term if you like I have absolutely no objection on it. But do not come here in a 1984-like attitude to tell me how I use the language. Next morning you will tell me that you do not like the word "bad" and you want the "not-good" instead.

    """And You then have the nerve to start lecturing on 'fascism & racism!"""

    The essence of the term racism is the mothers' love for her child in comparison to her feelings about the neighbours' children. As such, the term had been non existent in the totality of human philosophy till 1945 when it was inveted to pass fascist policies. Just to give you a fitting example: you are subject to immense racism when you are made to accept "by birth right" that old lady you call queen and her funny-looking son as future king.

    Fascism is a general term describing a particular organisation of the state in Italy by (remember eh? British incited) Mussolini. In the larger sense, the "union of interests".

    """Since when did You know the 'average' thoughts of the Asian-European, African-European, American-European never mind the original indigenous Europeans!?"""

    Refer to my example above.

    """Taken with the vilification of Turkey etc. what a sad expose of Your true values & ethics!"""

    A country that has committed 3 genocides in less than 100 years ago killing more than 3 million people, clearing the 45% of its population (the non-conforming to the muslim-turkish values part) and continuing throughout the 20th century and till our days to massacre people in the worst manner needs not anyone try to vilify it. It has already gained with its knife the position of a rogue country. Why do you feel obliged to defend it? Because your own murderous country has been supporting it?
    On the one hand you are pretending to be the "humanist" trying to call me "racist" or something, on the other you are trying to defend one of the biggest slayers of the 20th century and the only country in the world that succeeded in 100% complete ethnic cleansing and 3 genocides. What do you want know? To erase those facts from recorded history? To stop everyone and even the victims of those crimes talking about it? What is your interest exactly in the whole affair that seemingly should leave you at least indifferent if not being on the side of the victims? Why all that huge interest to support genocidal Turkey? Are you a nazi with a list of unwanted people whose extermination you support or something? You are really close to that picture even if you try to convince yourself that you are not. You are just one of those that would shed tears even for a minor case but will attack venomously anyone refering to a huge case if it is not up to your liking. Sorry CBW, reality is not exactly like the virtual world you live.

    All I can sujjest to you CBW is to stick to the discussions on issues you know better.

    By the way, I am still waiting for you to take that old discussion and pinpoint me on which of the facts I presented had contradictory info (eg. on the assasination by British of president Metaxas in January 1941, on the assasination by British of prime minister Papagos in September 1955 or on the British involvement in the rise of communists in Greece and Jugoslavia and the Greek and the Jugoslavian civil wars)...

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  • 358. At 1:05pm on 27 Aug 2010, Nik wrote:

    356. At 12:27pm on 27 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    """...It made me angry that we were spending so much American money, putting so many American soldiers at risk, and sacrificing in so many other ways to defend these people from the USSR and help them be prosperous so there wouldn't be yet another war in Europe. If one ever comes, I hope the next time Americans stay out of it. Not only isn't Europe worth saving IMO, it can't be saved from itself. The current crisis that goes far beyond the financial crisis precipitated by US banks prove that and that there is no solution for something as irrational as Europe."""

    Do you say that jokingly or sincirely? Do you really believe that a state (be it US or any other) will jump altruistically to "save" other states?

    In what planet you live?

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  • 359. At 1:29pm on 27 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #357

    Quote, "..don't push me start giving links here.."

    To paraphrase a certain Hollywood invented ne'er-do-well, non-PC, but honest cop was known to sardonically say, "Go ahead 'greek', make my day!"

    Be sure & include Your own 'commentary' bits about what the 'links' were allegedly revealing: So others can share in the incredulous laughter!

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  • 360. At 1:31pm on 27 Aug 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    lacerniagigante is right, pointing at "Gypsy"-"Egyptian".

    But may be not a mistake? but really a group came into Europe right out of real Egypt?

    no tickets left; no receipts; hard to tell :o))))))

    Elsewhere in Europe, Byzantium block :o), for sure - Greece, Russia, Bulgaria and East Enders other :o)))))))))))))) - the name it "tsygan" - "a tsygan" - 1,
    "tsigane" - plural. A Gypsy - gipsies, in English.

    The name is Greek, what it means and does it, any thing - only Nik would know.
    But I doubt he does either.
    In Russian it means nothing by itself, which means we borrowed it from Greece.
    And generalissimo I think had borrowed. And the rest of Byzantium block :o)

    A Greek name - "a tsygan" - a Gypsy.

    So, there is an English "gypsy", a Byzantium empire "tsygan", themselves they call themselves "Romaly", "Roma" - which clearly sounds to me they think they are out of Rome. May be a part lived there as well as in Egypt?


    Alaso Sinti which is suspiciously like singh in India.

    India is big. Peoples are varied there. What if a group of travellers went to Egypt who knows, a group migrated to Rome, and one more is plain Singh.
    And all state there are many different groups.

    Nik it's interesting in Greece experience these people like to work with metal working approximately :o)))))

    because "tsygan" I heard somewhere has a root common to "tin" and "tinkers".

    In Russian experience though Gypsy /"tsygane" (Greek) are horse experts, all things horse-related, shoeing, cure, eh well, you know.

    There is even a saying "You don't buy a horse from a gypsy, you don't marry a ? Russian Orthodox Priest say, a local vicar -'s daughter.

    The saying is so old we don't even know ourselves anymore what's wrong with vicar's daughters! The meaning is lost in around 12 century :o))) nobody knows since then. a mystery.

    but why a horse is not to be bought from a Gypsy - that's clear as a day-light in Russia still, it is likely to be a freshly eh privatised :o) say, horse or a very well re-painted one in colour :o)))) or a very well and youthful -looking :o)))))) temporarily :o))))) There isn't a thing which a Romaly can not do with a horse. A whisper - and it follows him.

    And says "I am 3 years old". In BBC English!

    :o)))))))))

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  • 361. At 1:48pm on 27 Aug 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Sorry. On the second thought figured out what can be wrong with Russian vicars' daughters :o)))))))))))) slow-brained today :o) long away from advanced company :o)

    but still the thought is not obvious, as you see.
    while re horses - at once.

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  • 362. At 2:02pm on 27 Aug 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    But then again I see there is low demand in the EU (currently. as M would say :o)))) - for horse-related jobs.

    Really, a problem. All manage their tins themselves :o), (for that matter I have several pans in the dacha that may do with some hole mending:o)

    no demand for singing and dancing in multi-colour shawls and 18 skirts per girl (very thin)

    no horse-shoeing done on a consequtive basis in the EU plans :o)))
    (Britain excellently manages her horses herself) (which aggravates matters even more :o)))

    so, what is the trade?
    someone ought to think and figure out something inspirational :o)

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  • 363. At 2:15pm on 27 Aug 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    overall kind of funny

    shifting Gypsies within the same EU

    reminds me of Russuan tsars' habit to shift misbehaving citizens to Siberia

    often, from Siberia! :o))) - to Siberia! a cruel punishment, to live 5 miles away from one's original home :o) by state decree "eternally!" away off from good and honest citizens :o)))))

    also reminds me of duck migration for winter to warmer quarters

    ducks aren't being shifted yet? :o)))))))))))))

    sorry. teasing.

    but they will fly back.

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  • 364. At 2:46pm on 27 Aug 2010, Freeman wrote:

    "363. At 2:15pm on 27 Aug 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:
    overall kind of funny

    shifting Gypsies within the same EU

    reminds me of Russuan tsars' habit to shift misbehaving citizens to Siberia"

    Interesting analogy there Alice.

    I have no problem with the French deporting Roma criminals. I just have misgivings it is because they are Roma who happen to be criminals rather than because they are criminals who just happen to be Roma. :(

    Not really that cold in Romania though....perhaps that is why they are keen to get Iceland in. :P

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  • 365. At 3:12pm on 27 Aug 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    ....perhaps that is why they are keen to get Iceland in. :P

    :o)))

    Perhaps.

    (how can one? do without own Siberia)

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  • 366. At 3:14pm on 27 Aug 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    #353 cool_brush_work

    You are certainly a touchy boy cbw (crying to the modarators, resent with margaret, Nik, me etc.)

    Anyway apart from that...resuming the facts...you ought to start from the beginning: In your #198 you wrote to nik:

    --✄-- Would that be the infamous 'Albanians' that You wrote so disparagingly of in previous contributions?
    Let us face it: What You know, believe & understand about the difficulties of 'minorities' extends only so far as Your estimation of POOR LITTLE GREECE getting done over by the nasty World! --✄--

    So! You had my #216 first response to you about the today GREEK situation with the Albanians and after that you answered me with your #226 post with the following:

    --✄-- " Whether 'albanian', 'roma', english'... every individual is entitled to the same respect & protection as well as being subject of the Law.." --✄--

    So in my #257 response i wrote with sarcasm that (apart from my funny Petreus doodle cowboy):

    "..I suppose under the same gen. Petreus umbrella protection... and the US Laws is more than good for you..."

    ...in a clear reference to our previous dialectic fight 'Europe's Dog days' who, you, gladly supported that the 100.000 Petreus boys respect & protection will save every Afghani women from their ultra-fundamentalist fate just to mention one...so i simply add to you...Why not everybody else?...

    and then again to your affirmation that:

    --✄-- because some 'albanian' commit crime (I'll stop there - - in deference to Your friend Nik...) gives no one the right to label entire Peoples as crooks and worse than crooks --✄--

    ...i continue my post by adding a 'link' to a site detailing a USA State dept. report of the U.S embassy in Albania...on the 'Albanian' crime situation with the title:

    "...Opps!..Someone dared to gone even 'U.S. State Department' further to this 'labeling entire Peoples as crooks and worse than crooks'..."

    ...and until here i never said anything in regards to the Roma situation or Roma crimes with you...So!...Are out of your mind?

    Anyway! Do you still think that my #352 & quote:

    "...I don't know... it's also a mystery to me... why don't you tell me?... and I wonder since I never spoke about Petreus in relation to Sarkozy (actually never mention of him)... and the Roma..."

    ...is a plain & simple falsehood by You? Certainly not

    Then i start talking about the Greek Roma situation...(BTW in an extreme positive way because that was my personal experience with them)....not with you but with everybody here and with a special reference to the Italian situation and which i knew that, in particular, Huaimek were going to respond to me as he did with his #302 post.

    So! Once again i never made a single reference about Roma crimes neither Petreus in relation to Sarkozy (actually neither i nor you made a single mention to Sarkozy or Roma France situation to our exchanged posts) and the Roma persecution instead i spoke only about Albanian crimes with you and the Greek Roma situation with everybody...You made it up all by your own...and you certainly get the wrong end of the stick...

    ...At the end you asked for a HEADLINE NEWS that would fit to you and make you happy...apart of my (͡๏̯͡๏) at my #352 post...here is a funny one:

    SARKOZY, AS A NEW SADDAM, PERSECUTED ROMA BUT PETREUS PROMISED: I WILL NOT LEAVE ROMA WOMEN TO THEIR ULTRA-FUNDAMENTALIST FRENCH FATE...OLD EUROPE HERE WE COME (OK THE LAST ONE IS BEEN STOLEN BY RUMSFELD) ๏̱̀๏́

    Now as far it concerns about withdraw from this and any further contact with me...i simply telling you that:

    freedom is a strange thing you know...you can withdraw from any further contact with me (the easy way it's not always the better one)...as well as i will continue to contact you, whenever i want it to and be sure that i will do it (of course not because i have anything against you).

    Now!...Who you think will be the falsehood at the end of this situation? Me or simply you. Obviously you...Why? Because be sure that is more difficult abstain from talking to me than for me talking to you.

    So! Do you still want to play ball "cbw beckham" and see who scores first?...

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  • 367. At 4:53pm on 27 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    "Crying to Moderators.."

    No, only twice in 3 years and nothing to do with anything like the views of other contributors, even ones as daft as the Greek & MAII.

    My 2 complaints have been about specific content which I felt was inappropriate:

    1) A contributor who had posted 30+ comments denying the Holocaust on 1 Blog

    and,

    2) A contributor who had used a very recent Child-killer as an example/comparison to another thing & I felt that was uncalled for.

    In both cases the BBC Mods denied my claims.

    So, with that cleared up, nothing more to add.

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  • 368. At 5:30pm on 27 Aug 2010, oulematu wrote:

    #357:
    Ok, so there we have it, a BBC blog whose participants adhere to the standards you would expect from the Holy Inquisition or the Stalinist show trials. If you want to say something, you must reveal your personal credentials, ethnic origin, class and religion to ensure that the Committee can properly assess the degree to which your contributions may pose a threat to the interests of the Working Class as embodied in the Leadership Role of the Party. It makes no difference what you say as long as it follows the Party line and your parents have a proper Working Class pedigree. Substitute "Working Class" for "White Indigenous Europeans (excluding Turks)", and "Committee" and "Leadership Role of the Party" for "Nik" and "Nik's Prejudices", and you are all set to participate in this enlightened discussion. Are we not very lucky to live in Europe which enables such free discussion where each argument is dialectically assessed strictly on its merits to ensure that it meets the standards of the Party.

    So be informed that I was born and grew up in Czechoslovakia and currently live in Central Europe (EU), in the City of One Hundred Golden Spires. To the best of my knowledge, both of my parents were also from Czechoslovakia, but to my regret I am not in a position to present a certificate of pure-blood indigenous origin. With deference I disclose and humbly beg to the Committee to be lenient in assessing the fact that my maternal grandmother may have unlawfully conspired during World War II to obtain a forged certificate of Aryan origin and married an Aryan thereby illegally circumventing the European rules than in force as regards persons of Jewish origin. I am aware from a previous thread that the Committee looks upon persons of Jewish heritage with healthy criticism. My foreign travels have been limited to Europe (including Russia and Turkey) and the English-speaking world (plus a visit to Mexico). I hereby represent to the Committee that, to the best of my conscience, I have not socialized with any elements which could be seen as undermining the interests of the Working Class, I am not affiliated with any religion or religious group and I fully support the interests of the Working Class as defined by the Party Central Committee at its most recent Congress. I have already also previously disclosed the nature of my spouse and family and deferently invite the Committee to peruse the relevant post with condescendence. Honour to Work, and Hail to Peace! And Glory to all Workers from around the Entire Globe!

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  • 369. At 5:48pm on 27 Aug 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    #367 cool_brush_work

    So you do talk to me? You still want a contact with me...What a relief :)))))))))))

    (1:0) for me...for the second half of my #366 post

    You are "the quality of being untrue" I've told you i will score for first but let me see...

    ...after all you have nothing more to add to me and that's a:

    2:0 for my first half of my #366 post...

    ...and that's not all...

    --✄--
    #332 cool_brush_work:

    BBC?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
    WHAT IS GOING ON???????????????????????????????????????????????
    EVERYTIME I POST A COMMENT ON THESE BLOGS IT IS NOT SHOWN
    COME ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    WAKE UP SOMEBODY IN THE I.T. DEPT & SORT IT OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    --✄--

    That's a 3:0 for me for not "Crying to Moderators.."...You really "Bend It Like Beckham".....

    ...at Los Angeles Galaxy :)))))))))))))))

    Don't try to add anything to that because it will only be a 4:0...I so worry for you...

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  • 370. At 6:28pm on 27 Aug 2010, oulematu wrote:

    to nik #357:
    *** Warning ***: The following may contain satire, but is not intended as derogatory or offensive. This comment is directed exclusively to contributor Nik and is not intended as a criticism of this BBC blog or other contributors.

    Ok, so there we have it, a BBC blog whose participant Nik adheres to the standards you would expect from the Holy Inquisition or the Stalinist show trials. If you want to tell him something, you must reveal your personal credentials, ethnic origin, class and religion to ensure that the Committee can properly assess the degree to which your contributions may pose a threat to the interests of the Working Class as embodied in the Leadership Role of the Party. It makes no difference what you say as long as it follows the Party line and your parents have a proper Working Class pedigree. Substitute "Working Class" for "White Indigenous Europeans (excluding Turks)", and "Committee" and "Leadership Role of the Party" for "Nik" and "Nik's Prejudices", and you are all set to participate in this enlightened discussion. Are we not very lucky to participate in this discussion where each argument is dialectically assessed strictly on its merits to ensure that it meets the standards of the Party.

    So be informed that I was born and grew up in Czechoslovakia and currently live in Central Europe (EU), in the City of One Hundred Golden Spires. To the best of my knowledge, both of my parents were also from Czechoslovakia, but to my regret I am not in a position to present a certificate of pure-blood indigenous origin. With deference I disclose and humbly beg to the Committee to be lenient in assessing the fact that my maternal grandmother may have unlawfully conspired during World War II to obtain a forged certificate of Aryan origin and married an Aryan thereby illegally circumventing the European rules than in force as regards persons of Jewish origin. I am aware from a previous thread that the Committee looks upon persons of Jewish heritage with healthy criticism. My foreign travels have been limited to Europe (including Russia and Turkey) and the English-speaking world (plus a visit to Mexico). I hereby represent to the Committee that, to the best of my conscience, I have not socialized with any elements which could be seen as undermining the interests of the Working Class, I am not affiliated with any religion or religious group and I fully support the interests of the Working Class as defined by the Party Central Committee at its most recent Congress. I have already also previously disclosed the nature of my spouse and family and deferently invite the Committee to peruse the relevant post with condescendence. Honour to Work, and Hail to Peace! And Glory to all Workers from around the Entire Globe!

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  • 371. At 11:54pm on 27 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Nik #358;

    "Do you say that jokingly or sincirely? Do you really believe that a state (be it US or any other) will jump altruistically to "save" other states?"

    Not altruistically, just a terrible mistake in judgement. The US should simply have walked away from Europe after WWII just the way it did after WWI. I think Americans would have been much better off, Soviets much worse off if Europe had been left to fend for itself. The US should not have gotten involved in the UN or NATO. In the end, Europe has been an anchor around America's neck. We'd have been better off if it had been an anchor around someone else's neck, its own or the USSR's. Considering how much trouble the USSR had with the likes of Bulgaria, East Germany, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Albania, Romania, and Yuogoslavia, imagine what kind of problems it would have had with France and Britain in its stomach.

    We have a saying in my country that no good deed goes unpunished. That has certainly held true in the aftermath of America's rescue of Western Europe.

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  • 372. At 10:16am on 28 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    oulematu

    Re #370

    I don't know if You are familiar with that patient, skilled & totally open to all ages, gender, races, creed etc. 'Working Class' Sport called DARTS....

    However, in Your #370 You metaphorically-speaking HIT the BULL's EYE with all 3 Darts!

    In 'Working Class' parlance and among all true Dart/Sport exponents this 'TREBLE BULL' is traditionally seen as a Championship effort.
    Workers around the Globe would indeed hail it as the Winning flight!

    CONGRATULATIONS!

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  • 373. At 10:25am on 28 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #369

    When my attempted comments do not get through to the BBC I write to point it out - - others do the same.

    Football! Well, it'd be a reference for all 'English', wouldn't it!?



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  • 374. At 12:11pm on 28 Aug 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    357 Nic wrote:
    "I am sorry but back in the late 90s there were about 45,000 Greek students studing in Britain out of which the majority if them, even those one who studied in universities situated in quite "posh areas" have a lot to say about the sad state of the British working class. Wake up CBW and face reality. Working class exists in all countries and such events can be reproduced but nothing really can be compared to the dire situation of the British working class."

    Nik, just to reassure everyone that your countrymen haven't exaggerated the situation, the following extract is from our local forum in our small sleepy market town in a very rural district of eastern England and was written last week:

    "Those congregating outside pubs in North Street between 10pm and 2am the next day are certainly not all teenagers. This happens every Friday and Saturday night. Now, I have no problem with that. After all, urinating outside the gate to my property, on occasion defecating there, shouting and screaming obscenities - this is all part of Britain's rich cultural heritage. What I object to strongly is the fact that I cannot get to sleep until 3 - 4 am these days. I am not the only one affected, nor the only one who has complained."

    This goes on in every small town or even village every weekend and we along with our middle aged friends would never go out in the evening because of it. We are virtual prisoners in our own homes. The police do nothing. Incidentally, these young people used to be mainly teenage boys, but now the girls are just as bad and as the writer says this atrocious behaviour is certainly not confined to just very young people.
    No doubt that's why Buzet moved to Belgium and CBW to Finland! The trouble is that as soon as a certain type of Englishman has left his own country he is soon overcome by nostalgia and pretends to himself and all who will listen to have left behind a veritable paradise.

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  • 375. At 12:56pm on 28 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #374

    I've read some anecdotal stretches of stereotyping in my time but that surely beats almost any of them!

    What about the 'young' men & women of the Police, Ambulance, Hospital, Fire working on those Friday & Saturday nights!?
    What about those 'young' persons who don't get drunk, get sick, get into fights, get anything except a good evening's entertainment before going to their respective homes?
    What about those 'young' adults doing night-shift in factories, shops, offices, airports, stations, and working in the pubs, clubs, cinemas, theatres etc.?
    What about the incredibly hostile stereotyping content of Your reply to an allegation against the 'Working Class' as a whole - - my, my, You certainly are a piece of work not to say class, aren't You Margaret - - which 'class' can be so unanimously condemned from Your deep, abiding knowledge, do tell us!?

    As for 'residence'!
    Since when does a Scot get to lambast others over 'nostalgia' - - what a joke - - ever seen the Highland Gathering in Richmond Park, Margaret!? Tried the 'jock'/'paddy'/'taffy' pubs & clubs found in most English, Welsh, Scot cities - - Where have You lived all Your life - - it cannot be the in the UK to make such a ludicrous point!?

    My eldest daughter is a Met Police Officer: She faces all those unpleasant social nightmares every day & night, not just weekends, but she also comes across profoundly memorable episodes involving young, middle-aged & elderly. Over the years my girl (30+) has faced raging knife-fights & diving life-saving action by all 3 categories.

    Her own view is simple, 'You take people as you find them, mostly the good and the bad can all be different tomorrow.'

    "..veritable paradise.."! Margaret no one claims that as You well know, but IMO for You to glibly turn on the community around You to score ill-defined points is very sad indeed at a personal and public level for You. That afraid of Your neighbours I suggest You lock Yourself up in that cocoon home of Your's and wait until it's safe to come out again.

    Then again, You could admit You get on with life much as the rest of us do: Oh but that would mean a positive about England & the English, wouldn't it - - so that's a non-starter for Margaret Howard!?

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  • 376. At 1:21pm on 28 Aug 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    375 CBW writes:

    "Then again, You could admit You get on with life much as the rest of us do..."
    In the safety of Finland?

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  • 377. At 1:34pm on 28 Aug 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    Incidentally, the gentleman whose forum entry I quoted in 374 is a shopkeeper and lives in a flat above the shop. Hardly a member of the meisured classes. But trust an Englishman to bring class into it.

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  • 378. At 1:50pm on 28 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Peg #374

    ""...Those congregating outside pubs in North Street between 10pm and 2am the next day are certainly not all teenagers. This happens every Friday and Saturday night. Now, I have no problem with that. After all, urinating outside the gate to my property, on occasion defecating there, shouting and screaming obscenities - this is all part of Britain's rich cultural heritage. What I object to strongly is the fact that I cannot get to sleep until 3 - 4 am these days. I am not the only one affected, nor the only one who has complained."

    This goes on in every small town or even village every weekend and we along with our middle aged friends would never go out in the evening because of it. We are virtual prisoners in our own homes. The police do nothing."

    Really? Then the quality of life has degraded in Europe even further than I thought. That doesn't happen in America. The police do something when they are called. Such public disorderlyness would get even teenagers arrested and if it happens repeatedly, there would be more than just an evening in jail, there would be other penalties imposed by family courts until they are 18 and then by the regular courts who would sentence them to a required number of hours of community service and then maybe 30 days in jail for each instance. Much more if they become violent. Your government won't enforce the law, live with the consequences. If you don't have laws or the police won't or can't enforce them, then you have no democracy, not even on a local level.

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  • 379. At 6:30pm on 28 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    MargaretHoward

    Re: #376 & 377

    You backed off sharpish, I see.

    Presumably they do have some decent 'young' people in Your area, but typically You couldn't bring Yourself to admit it as it would reflect well on some English!

    Afterall, if You are truly claiming, "..we and our middle-aged friends would never go out in the evening because of it. We are virtual prisoners in our own homes...", then there is something seriously wrong with Your lifestyle and no wonder You express envy/annoyance of others!

    I live in Finland because I am keeping to a promise I made in 1972 when my Finnish wife accompanied me to England - - I said we would go back - - we have, only 35 odd years later! Among her many virtues, she, like almost every Finn has 2 significant & admirable traits - - Sisu (tenacity) & Karsivallisyys (Patience).

    Also, I did NOT bring 'class' into it!

    How many times have You misread stuff??? It is quite amazing!

    You backed-up Nik's contributions which were all about 'Working Class' English.
    You provided a quote in support of an attack on 'Working class' people though Nik, like Yourself, offers no proof of any 'class' or anything of the sort!
    You write about being afraid to go out as part of Your wilfully ill-thought out diatribe against, yet again, the 'English': And, You therefore attribute certain behaviours to a certain 'class' because how else can You support Nik's assertion that he knows 45,000 Greeks who all had the same experience in England!?

    I feel sorry for those villagers from the news article & for the many other places such rampantly obnoxious behaviour goes on on a regular basis.
    However, I also feel sorry for those many 'young' Britons/English all lumped together by thoughtless attitudes such as those expressed by Nik (who also does for entire Nations!) & You.
    It is very much like the annual hullabaloo on GCSE Exam Results: There may well be subjects/questions/tests that are not upto scratch, but condemning all fine, young scholars as not having to work hard for their results is a gross insult to them - - much as You have insulted every young Police, Ambulance, Hospital, Fire services employee etc. - - and simply to have another go at 'cbw' and the 'English'.

    IMO Your judgement on several issues was always suspect and this latest just reveals more of the same.

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  • 380. At 8:01pm on 28 Aug 2010, commonsense_expressway wrote:

    #379

    You dont need to defend why you live in Finland, it is entirely your prerogative. Perhaps Margarethoward might like to explain why she has lived in England for 40 years and married an Englishman when she clearly despises the lot of us. Talk about masochism.

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  • 381. At 05:01am on 29 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    These Blogs give us a good chance to argue among ourselves , rather aside from the actual Blog subject . Like it or not everyone is entitled to there views . I have been called offensive for suggesting that predominantly pro EU supporters are socialist or Communist , hence a number of EU Sceptics refering to the EUSSR . Bring back Uncle Adolf . If Nik files all he writes , he must have storage akin to the national Archives .

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  • 382. At 10:10am on 29 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #362 WebAliceinwonderland

    You do indeed live in the world of fantasie !

    I fear that Gypsy women dancing exotic dances in multilayered skirts to a Gypsy violin are a thing of the past or a figment of your fertile imagination.

    Although closely associated with horses ; I do not believe that Gypsies have ever been employed in the care of horses either in Britain or Ireland . Gypsy horses are generally course bred skewbald or piebald .
    In Ireland Gypsies will supply a mare who has recently foaled to a thoroughbred stud , where a thoroughbred mare has died in foaling or soon after . In recompence , their mare will be put to the stud farm teaser ; a stallion of not sufficient quality , or reliable potency to be used with thoroughbred mares . Serving an occasional Gypsy mare keeps him interested ; to show if the mare is in season and ready to be serves by a super stallion . The Gypsies will get a quality foal to sell on as a hunter or even competition horse .

    Shoing horses today is a highly skilled craft . In Britain a prospective farrier needs to be apprenticed to an approved qualified farrier ; but must regularly attend a national school of ferriery over several years . Incorrect shoing causes severe problems for horses feet , that used to be very common in the past , but farely rare today . Years ago many horses coming from Ireland had badly aligned and levelled hooves and suffered deseases like Navicular Desease .

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  • 383. At 5:46pm on 29 Aug 2010, lilu1304 wrote:

    I don't understand why France has to pay for Bulgaria and Romania's mistakes and inability to integrate the Roma population. The EU is pouring so much money into Roma projects and if Bulgarian and Romania are unable to put this money into good use, it's their problem. Of course, the French would ship the Roma back!!!

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  • 384. At 10:30pm on 29 Aug 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @ 383 Lilu
    Cher (ère) ami (e), except for the repatriation ticket of some 100 Bulgarian Roma, France will pay the amount of its contribution to improve the living standards of ALL Roma in the EU who come from the East and nothing else. It's our mistake of course that for the last 20 years we have done nothing to integrate them. Hopefully, this time it will work...
    Just imagine the difference btw the total French amount of money that will go for the Roma and the billions of EUR the French pay for the family allocations for those (non Roma people) who have been flooding France ever since 1962.
    Well, our Roma will be back in days. It's the less, I would say the easier to remove evil. But the other will remain. And that is the real challenge...
    Amicalement!

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  • 385. At 00:01am on 30 Aug 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    384 generalissimo62

    I admire your exquisite manners - it puts the rest of us to shame. (I wonder if we in western Europe have lost the art of being polite, even if we disagree with other people).
    Amicalement!

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  • 386. At 04:25am on 30 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #357 Nik

    By the time I have read this lengthy post , I am left with the impression that you have no vision of the world at all , only your hatred of the Turks and anybody whose views sharply differ from yours .

    Quote " Are you a nazi with a list of unwanted people whose extermination you support or something "?

    I haven't quite decided between Nazi or Fascist or Something ; but my list would start with the EU Commission , the EU Bureaucrats and the European Parliament .

    I , and I suspect others , mostly don't bother to read your posts .
    Most of what you write is a qualification or aside to the subject of the post ; by the end one has no idea of the relevance of your opinion .

    You write about Greek students in Britain at colleges and universities situated in Posh Areas . How would the students get to see any Working Class people , other than street cleaners and refuse collectors ? I doubt that they would have explored the back to back housing in the former coal mining districts . Working Class people holiday in Spain , Majorca , Greece and Turkey , among other places ; have been doing so for many years . I doubt that there's a heap of difference between working class in one country or another . Perhaps Greece is different because it isn't so industrialised , in the sense of deep coal mining , iron foundries . In Yorkshire they used to say ," Where There's Muck (Dirt )There's Brass ( Money )".

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  • 387. At 09:51am on 30 Aug 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    margaret I agree.
    dear generalissima is ever so eh pacifying and ? accommodating

    generous

    and always impeccab ly? polite with girls

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  • 388. At 09:59am on 30 Aug 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Huaimek,

    "generally course bred skewbald or piebald .

    In Ireland Gypsies will supply a mare who has recently foaled to a thoroughbred stud , where a thoroughbred mare has died in foaling or soon after . In recompence , their mare will be put to the stud farm teaser ; a stallion of not sufficient quality , or reliable potency to be used with thoroughbred mares . Serving an occasional Gypsy mare keeps him interested ; to show if the mare is in season and ready to be serves by a super stallion . The Gypsies will get a quality foal to sell on as a hunter or even competition horse. "

    Hat off.
    That's the first whole big passage in English in 3 years in BBC in which I understood nil.
    :o)))))))))))))))

    I think I will (strategically) :o))))))) retreat. From discussing a horse subject with you.
    Must note somewhere; "don't tell Huaimek about horses". :o)))

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  • 389. At 11:05am on 30 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #190

    So much of that was incredibly unpleasant & exposed a very sad mentality.

    I will reply in a short saying I have used before because to reply at length would give credence to something that does not deserve it:

    'Some people have a thousand experiences, and some people experience the same thing a thousand times.'

    The latter portion of the phrase amply relates my opinion of the Greek.

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  • 390. At 12:23pm on 30 Aug 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @ 385 margaret howard
    Thanks. As a matter of facts that does not cost much effort. (*)
    (*) I shall be glad if MAII will try to understand what I mean.
    (My godfather was Russian - I mean of the other, not Soviet type of Russians who existed before 1917. He taught me the Voltaire's manners of communicating with people we considered of having quite different views/education/lifestyle. He was in good command of six languages and he would never, never gossip against Soviet Russia and/or against the Bolsheviks who had shot dead half of his family. He was a highly educated, brilliant interpreter and a very generous type of man, a man of another, already disappeared world. True, he had inherited the Prince title from his late father, but the fact that he did belong to the authentic Russian nobility did not prevent him from being really noble, polite and very, very accessible in the real life. He passed away in 1994).

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  • 391. At 12:50pm on 30 Aug 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @ 389 CBW
    "The latter portion of the phrase amply relates my opinion of the Greek."
    I disagree with the commonly spread opinion that the Roma are limiting their knowledge and skills to several professions and/or crafts. However, I wonder how people like you are able to put in the same basket the whole Greek nation. Of course, if you mean only our fellow blogger Nik, I would permit myself to note that your manner of referring to him is unacceptable, as if the mere notion of Greece or of the Greek people were something retrograde, horrible and mean... The fact that you are Englishman posting to a British blog is just another special requirement of being more polite and lovely than the rest of us...

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  • 392. At 5:28pm on 30 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    generalissimo62

    Re #391

    Whilst I take Your general point about myself & all contributors whenever possible being reasonably polite I am afraid I cannot withdraw my derogatory view concerning 'Nik'.

    Yes, of course it was only that Greek contributor I was referring to: In the past I & my family have had good times in Greece, known Greek neighbours in England & I had some small business contact with Greek firms. Greece is a fine country and I feel very sorry for the arduous times it is going through at present.

    All that said, sorry, but when a person attempts to brand in writing all 'Albanians', all 'Turks', 'working class English', the 'Americans' etc. in some manner from a base-line of undiluted prejudice then they can only expect one reaction from me.

    I consider the contributions of Nik to a very large extent attack & pillory the UK & especially English people. Several of his comments (trying to be polite) are utterly outlandish & unreasoning speculation which IMO are without foundation and deserve nothing but contempt.

    Quote, "..I wonder how people like you are able to put in the same basket the whole....?"
    Perhaps after You have familiarised Yourself with his comments THAT is a question You need to address to Nik.

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  • 393. At 5:32pm on 30 Aug 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    389 cool_brush_work

    'Some British people have a thousand Greek experiences, and some British females...experience the same Ⓐⓦⓔⓢⓞⓜⓔ Greek thing a thousand times.'

    The latter portion of the phrase amply relates my opinion of the Greek.


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  • 394. At 5:52pm on 30 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #393

    Some females have a lot of lucky experiences & who knows one or some unfortunates may know Nik!

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  • 395. At 6:10pm on 30 Aug 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    392 & 394 cool_brush_work

    --✄-- In the past I & my wife have had good times in Greece --✄--

    --✄-- Some females have a lot of lucky experiences --✄--

    Umm! I hope for you that you have not                 ☼
    met a single Greek in Greece or Nik!...             【ツ】

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  • 396. At 6:48pm on 30 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #395

    Ha, ha, ho, ho... '

    Why I haven't laughed so much since...

    I suffered splinter wounds in my back & was unable to continue with my army career!

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  • 397. At 10:56pm on 30 Aug 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Where does Ellinas take all these cute signs from is the only thing that worries me by the end of this thread :o)))))))))))

    threndio commenting "wake me up when you are over with it" in the other thread must have missed these!
    or else his opinion of the discussion q-ty would have been much higher

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  • 398. At 11:54pm on 30 Aug 2010, margaret howard wrote:


    387 alice says: "and always impeccabLy? polite with girls"
    So true. Which reminds me, just what has happened to all the 'girls' who used to contribute to this blog? Have they been driven away by the aggressive posting of some of the men here?

    Re 388 you say
    "Hat off.
    That's the first whole big passage in English in 3 years in BBC in which I understood nil."
    Don't worry, I didn't understand a word of it either.

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  • 399. At 00:08am on 31 Aug 2010, margaret howard wrote:

    390 generalissimo

    I once knew a gentleman similar to the one you describe here. He fled Hungary in 1956 and my mother befriended him and his wife. He epitomised what I imagined to be the best in the men of the old Austro-Hungarian empire - handsome, courteous, as polite and considerate to us small children as he was to everyone else, irrespective of their station in life. You meet so many people in your life yet only a few make such an overwhelming impression on you.

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  • 400. At 01:22am on 31 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Peg;

    "Which reminds me, just what has happened to all the 'girls' who used to contribute to this blog?"

    Maybe it was more like a bad case of...hair pulling.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oEQgzDCuBY

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  • 401. At 01:38am on 31 Aug 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    397 WebAliceinwonderland

    --✄-- Where does Ellinas take all these cute signs from is the only thing that worries me by the end of this thread :o))))))))))) --✄--

    WebAliceinwonderland you must switch your TV to BBC lifestyle channel to find out...Let me do that for you:

           \     /
             \./
      ____₪₪₪_________________
    (                     ⒷⒷⒸ™   |      )
    (                                  |  ◕  )
    (               ☼                 |  ◕  )
    (        【ツ】                     |  ◕  )
     ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
             //                     \\
            //                       \\
         ☒☒                         ☒☒

    You see...?

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  • 402. At 04:31am on 31 Aug 2010, Bro_Winky wrote:

    378. At 1:50pm on 28 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Really? Then the quality of life has degraded in Europe even further than I thought. That doesn't happen in America. The police do something when they are called...If you don't have laws or the police won't or can't enforce them, then you have no democracy, not even on a local level.

    ---------------

    http://abclocal.go.com/wjrt/story?section=news/local&id=7496923

    http://calcoastnews.com/2010/02/police-take-30-hours-to-respond-to-911-call/

    I guess these incidents of lackadaisical police response happened in another “America”

    Or, maybe, America isn’t the sunny utopia you often crow.

    Maybe you Americans are just as flawed as the rest of us mortals…

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  • 403. At 04:53am on 31 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    WebAliceinwonderland and Margaret Howard

    I am sorry neither of you understood a word I wrote about horses . I childhood , my sisters and I had ponies , my parents kept many horses for foxhunting or breeding . When I wasn't riding , I spent a lot of time helping our groom and learning from him . I have kept horses for many years looking after them myself , breeding near thoroughbreds for foxhunting or competition . I have learnt over the years to maintain horses to a very high standard and supreme fitness .

    Gypsys have been associated with horses as a means of moving their picturesque caravans , as well as breeding a few horses to sell .
    Alice you mentioned not buying a horse from a Gypsy . A Gypsy horse for sale may well be unsound , have no training at all , behave perfectly when demonstrated by the Gypsy , but have wild uncontrolable ways when you get it home .

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  • 404. At 09:31am on 31 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    BW;

    What makes these stories newsworthy is that they are the rare exceptions, not the rule as the lack of police response is in Europe. It is a manifestation of budget constraints, not a consequence of a culture of indifference to crime. As with the failure to enforce the law along the border between Arizona and Mexico, if the government doesn't enforce the law, individual citizens will do it themselves. They have the means and the will. They also have the power of the vote to discharge those politicians whose priorities are so confused that they don't understand that their primary responsibility is the physical security of the population. Law and order at home and national defense abroad are government's number one priorities. When it forgets that, those temporarily in office have a politial future in public life that is very short.

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  • 405. At 09:33am on 31 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    H;

    " A Gypsy horse for sale may well be unsound , have no training at all , behave perfectly when demonstrated by the Gypsy , but have wild uncontrolable ways when you get it home."

    I think many men have found out the hard way that the same is sometimes true about women.

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  • 406. At 09:37am on 31 Aug 2010, Nik wrote:

    394. At 5:52pm on 30 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    Re #393

    """Some females have a lot of lucky experiences & who knows one or some unfortunates may know Nik!"""

    Hehe... indeed, very unfortunates those that have known me but did not manage to keep me! They say that more than 50% of women remain unsatisfied with their personal life. I am very sorry to hear that but I cannot be everywhere!

    403. At 04:53am on 31 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    """A Gypsy horse for sale may well be unsound , have no training at all , behave perfectly when demonstrated by the Gypsy , but have wild uncontrolable ways when you get it home"""

    No way! I knew the dog gets some habits from the boss but I had never heard that about horses!!! Unimaginable! Perhaps you could do something about the gipsy horse by training it under the sounds of violins & clarinets? No?

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  • 407. At 12:01pm on 31 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #405 MarcusAuraliusII

    I have once made a mistake buying a horse . The vendor was not a Gypsy so I was able to return it to the owner and have my money back .

    I have had a number of adventures with the ladies ; where they turned out not to be so lovely when I got them home . I was always too kind and courteous .
    There's an old saying ," Treat Em Mean , Keep Em Keen "; I regret that I only learnt to do that in later life .

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  • 408. At 12:11pm on 31 Aug 2010, Huaimek wrote:

    #406 Nik

    I have a friend who runs clinics to help owners with their problem horses . She and I both know that usually the problem with a horse is the owner . Correct the faults of the owner and the horse will correct itself .

    My mother had a beautiful part arab horse that had been bought from Ireland , probably of Gypsy origin . When he heard music he used to dance . We thought he might have previously belonged to a circus .

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  • 409. At 12:39pm on 31 Aug 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @ 399 Margaret Howard
    “You meet so many people in your life yet only a few make such an overwhelming impression on you.”
    Thanks for your kind comments. Unfortunately you are quite right in your, I would say, general assessment of the people we meet in our short, active life. I was lucky of having encountered and worked with two of that rare, disappearing kind of human sapiens one can’t forget for the rest of his days. What in my opinion differs those people from all of us is their acute sense of responsibility coupled with a vast general culture and good manners. Most of them sincerely believe in God (without even whispering His name in public because our Lord is a part of their subconscious. Just like that). They all are doomed to disappear in our dynamic, unceremonious time...

    @ 392 cool_brush_work
    “I consider the contributions of Nik to a very large extent attack & pillory the UK & especially English people.”
    I have followed discretely your endless chatting with Nik, and I must say that I join him entirely in his statement that old Britain has always sided with Ottoman Turkey in order to counteract the proliferation of the Russian political/cultural/economic influence on the Balkan peninsular much to the disadvantage of all the Orthodoxies inhabiting that part of old Europe. For ex., during the Berlin Congress of 1878, it was Lord Disraeli who initiated the full revision of the status quo the Russian/Turkish war of 1877-78 had established, thus depriving half of our nation of the fruits of victory the Russian arms brought to Bulgaria after five centuries of painful, humiliating and merciless yoke. We certainly cannot forget nor forgive that act aimed at the reinforcement of a medieval and cruel political regime that would suppress and annihilate millions of Christians up to the end of WW1, and even after that (I mean the slaughters of the Armenians) ….And that mentality is largely shared in Bulgaria, in Serbia, in Montenegro, in Macedonia, in Greece, in Cyprus…where our old orthodox banners still hang on the inside of our churches along with the icons of Jesus…That’s where Europe finishes. That’s where the outpost of our Christian civilisation is. What a pity that you refuse to accept that evident fact, and I am helpless to go further in my effort to convince you of the cultural/social/political incompatibility btw Turkey and the EU member states.
    “I suffered splinter wounds in my back & was unable to continue with my army career!”
    What a coïncidence. I endured almost the same experience, though I was in the other camp. I left the navy in 1979 as a chief navigator officer of the flagship. The fleet was an integral part of the Russian Black Sea fleet and we used to play Cat & Mouse games with the 6th American fleet in the whole Mediterranean. When approaching Gibraltar a Harrier fighter would unmistakably overflow the whole squadron thus reminding us of the British outpost in that part of the globe...
    “Some females have a lot of lucky experiences & who knows one or some unfortunates may know Nik!”
    One never knows. In that exotic country, by the seaside, where under the lovely rhythms of Certaki one is sipping white cooled wine and is having a bite of lavraki fish abundantly dressed with lemon juice, everything is possible. Certain Cool_brush_work may well fall under the table with certain Nik after having emptied together half dozen of Ouzo bottles…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwt6CtcbDUY

    @ 397 AliceInWonderLand
    Alice I love you…

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  • 410. At 2:28pm on 31 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:

    generalissimo62

    Re #409

    All that Victorian history is fairly accurate: Point being it has only the remotest, minutest semblance of a connection to do with anything now.

    I'm afraid I cannot agree on the 'ouzo' etc.

    Kindly read the Greek's #251 offering on the next Blog: He is as I write at #254, "absolutely barking!" and for IMO why You or anyone would attempt to represent his contributions as anything other than mindless rigamarole is beyond me!

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  • 411. At 3:03pm on 31 Aug 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:


    @ 410 CBW
    "All that Victorian history is fairly accurate: Point being it has only the remotest, minutest semblance of a connection to do with anything now...."
    ??????
    Thinks do not change much friend...in terms of mentality. The memories are still alive.
    "Kindly read the Greek's #251 offering on the next Blog..."
    I promise, I shall.
    Kindly join me on internation.mybb
    (no registration needed)

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  • 412. At 3:26pm on 31 Aug 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    409 generalissimo62

    --✄-- And that mentality is largely shared in Bulgaria, in Serbia, in Montenegro, in Macedonia, in Greece, in Cyprus… --✄--

    Macedonia is Greece...i suppose you meant Vardaska

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  • 413. At 3:34pm on 31 Aug 2010, Lesleigh wrote:

    I think these deportations are disgusting. Honestly, they really are. I've been reading many articles on this and the main reason or deportation seems to be that many of these Roma are not working and that they simply do not want to work.

    However, let me ask how many people would hire them anyway just knowing the stigma around them? The whole group has been labeled with a negative stereotype-should we blame all Germans for being Nazis when the fact is many people were not? Should we blame all Germans for the Holocaust? If your answer is no, then how is it that the Roma don't get the same answer?

    And no work? I've read cases of Rom who went to university and came out with a degree in engineering but people will NOT hire them-or they Roma is hired over the phone asnd when they show up to work they're fired. What made that person any less qualified when they showed up after being hired via the phone? If they had the brains to stay dedicated in school against all odds and graduate with a degree in such a respected field what suddenly changed on their first day of work that these companies didn't need them anymore? The answer? Skin Color.

    What is Europe's excuse for that?

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  • 414. At 4:32pm on 31 Aug 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @ 412 Ellinas
    "Macedonia is Greece...i suppose you meant Vardaska"
    I meant FYROM i.e. Vardarska Makedonia my brother. We know better than anyone else that in neighbour Greece there is an administrative district of Macedonia. I and my wife, we go shopping there once a month, I mean in Thessaloniki. And, as you know maybe, many Greeks are omnipresent elsewhere in South West Bulgaria (for feeling the cars tanks, for shopping, for leisure time, for dentist's services, for small/medium/big business, etc. The prices are at least 50% lower here. The recession is still ravaging both countries. Nothing to do.) It was high time...
    Hope you correctly interpreted my @ 409 I adressed to CBW.

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  • 415. At 6:04pm on 31 Aug 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    414 generalissimo62

    --✄-- I meant FYROM i.e. Vardarska Makedonia my brother. --✄--

    --✄-- Hope you correctly interpreted my @ 409 I addressed to CBW. --✄--

    I certainly did it so and i had nothing to object...only to correct some terms essentials to me.

    There never was a name Vardarska Makedonia instead there was Vardar Banovina according to the 1931 Constitution of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia,
    until communist ( ☭ ) Tito change it to the monstrous...Socialist Republic of Macedonia of Yugoslavia in 1963.

    ...after a dispute between Greece and this newly independent state...The United Nations adopted the provisional reference Fyrom "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"...accepted (wrongly for us) by both sides...

    I personally don't accept even this (Fyrom) and any other kind of transgenic and genetically modified historical propaganda terms with the name Macedonia (modified by the today international political laboratory...CBW knows to whom i'm referring to).

    --✄-- as you know maybe, many Greeks are omnipresent elsewhere in South West Bulgaria (for feeling the cars tanks, for shopping, for leisure time, for dentist's services, for small/medium/big business, etc --✄--

    I know that because i'm from Serres - Macedonia

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  • 416. At 07:40am on 01 Sep 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @415 Ellinas
    Thanks for the comment. I certainly will not risk in bringing back for discussion the sensible issue of the apple of discord (Macedonia) that was the main reason for at least three Balkan wars. We know in details, just like you, our common (bloody)history. What matters now is to ensure a stable and everlasting peace on the Balkans which is not an easy task. As to the relations btw our two nations, be sure that they are excellent. No check points (Charlie), no restrctions, no linguistic problems. In Serres many people still speak (though in dialectal) Bulgarian....Just like in Nessebar (Messembria) & Sozopol (Appolonia), many aged people still speak excellent Greek. (As a naval officer I have served at the Sozopol naval base in 1972-1974. Some of my collegues merried Greek girls there. Cheers!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av4L4A5uU7I

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  • 417. At 08:00am on 01 Sep 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    Gavin, yesterday, two French ministers were invited to the EP in Brussels for discussions over the expatriation of the Roma people from France. The communiqué that was published the same day did not mention a single reference to Bulgaria....
    In the mean time, only (13) Bulgarian Roma arrived from France at Sofia Airport!
    Be kind to investigate further the Roma problem before reporting on the "involvement" of my country in that unpleasent happening. A journalist must be correct if he really wants to keep proper his own reputation and that of his bosses, in this case the reputation of BBC.
    Justice is to be done if you pretend to be impartial and fair.

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  • 418. At 1:06pm on 01 Sep 2010, Ellinas wrote:

    --✄-- In Serres many people still speak (though in dialectal) Bulgarian --✄--

    As far it concerns to my town...In Serres no citizen speak Bulgarian or some kind of a Bulgarian dialect (never met a single one in my entire life) except some friends of mine that went to a Bulgarian University for, at the time - the 80's - 90's, easy studies but from 95 till today you can find some Bulgarian working immigrants. I personally know only one.

    The only people i saw speaking another language (except Greek) to Serres were some Roma but certainly that was not a Bulgarian dialect

    --✄-- As to the relations btw our two nations, be sure that they are excellent --✄--

    I think and feel the same as you do...☮

    --✄-- As a naval officer I have served at the Sozopol naval base in 1972-1974 --✄--

    At that time i was some months old ๏̱̀๏́

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  • 419. At 1:49pm on 01 Sep 2010, Nik wrote:

    Ellinas you are from Serres? That explains a lot! Lovely town, lovely people. I am not either in knowledge of people of Serres speaking Bulgarian dialect. By the way, the majority of the people nowadays are mixes of Thaecian and Pontian people that found refuge there following the genocides that preceded the creation of the fascist kemalist state of Turkey. Certainly the Slavic-related muslim Pomaks in Xanthi (which is not neighbouring to Serres but is eastern to the region of Drama which is eastern the region of Serres) speak a Bulgarian dialect (but them do not like to call it such) while there are Bulgarian-dialects spoken still by a few villages in Florina only a third of whom abide to the propaganda of FYROMians, the rest vehemently resisting them. There are also certain villages not far from Thessaloniki like Malgara and even the first village north of the city, Liti which were (and still are) populated by what we called slavophones (but nowadays only the grandparents can talk some of it there), i.e. Bulgarian-dialect speaking people but these too are vehemently denying being anything else than Greeks (I think Liti were actually largely right-wing in the communist civil war). On the same level, one should not bunch all Hellenophones of Bulgaria as ethnic Greeks, since there were many among them clearly ethnic Bulgarians that spoke by proxy the Greek language much as many Greeks in Macedonia were accustomed to Bulgarian dialects. To be noted that despite this being termed as "balkanisation", both of these populations spoke both languages since it was all the usual effect of bilingualism found in all near-border regions (not to mention that these spoke also a bit of turkish thus they were trilingual effectively) but in reality even the most illiterate of them had a more developed ethnic consciousness than either the Greek or the Bulgarian state and certainly Britain, France and Germany of the times were ready to acknowledge. And as said, there was absolutely no case of any separate "macedonian" consciousness even in those mixed families (who would either chose the Bulgarian or the Greek side but would not declare any third option). Anyway, no need to speak again on the artificiality of FYROM, the creation of criminal dictator Tito, this is had to be considered an axiom. The majority of FYROM is Bulgarian lands, Albanians can claim a corner and Greeks a thin line up to the historic Greek city of Monastiri, an age old (up to mid-20th century) Greek city much more important in Greek culture than what the likes of pre-19th century Athens and Sparta had been (inexistend till mid-19th century). Not asking to do anything about it but won't accept any vicious bending of the basic reality.

    """As to the relations btw our two nations, be sure that they are excellent"""

    I think and feel the same as you do......

    Same here.

    And they have to remain such on all levels especially in those times when we face the very same attack on our countries, our cultures, our languages and above all on our people. Of all Balkan people - and I think - of all European people we are the only to have arrived to a point that we are able to sit down, open the can of worms of our recent history and talk without ending up beating each other (something that French, English and Germans are not yet ready to do that to that extend but prefer to erase a large part of their history to avoid opening that can of worms).

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  • 420. At 3:35pm on 01 Sep 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @ 419 Nik @ 418 Ellinas
    "we are able to sit down, open the can of worms of our recent history and talk without ending up beating each other..."
    I totally agree with both of you. I hope the Serbs will join us in the coming years in the EU. They deserve a far more decent life...
    Kindly invite you to join me on internation mybb
    There is a special guestroom there where registration is no more needed. Just do it... Alice is there.
    Regards from Sofia

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  • 421. At 11:13pm on 01 Sep 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    generalissimo then after the end of what you've said it's .ru because it's Russia.
    To be honest I am degrading there :o) and decomposing :o) I would say as it's a very easy-going place where one doesn't have to think of any thing :o)
    a place for lazy-bones :o)
    Off and on I try to shake off the charms of the swamp and come back here :o)

    Huaimek, that's what I meant - Britain and Ireland - "manage their horses excellently well themselves; no need for Gypsy work."
    you are an illustration :o)

    To be fair we have also long forgotten Gypsy and horses together; there are very few stables left in Russia; Don river area cossacks traditionally still keep some for breeding, I mean, like horse? factories? :o) production/training? ? eh? plants? :o

    ) for hippodromes and buyers in Siberia may be someone somewhere And that's it gone with Perestroyka. many went out of business, collapsed, gone with the wind. of changes :o)))))

    In our quarters there was a definite shift of the business to the South; what remains - remains there; Turkmen are still mad about horses and that's about it.

    The rest is small private stables for fun, nothing professional.

    In this dacha village I am at :o) still... freesing by now! :o) - there is one People keep there their horses but a little may be 10? 12?
    they are looked after by these private stables' owners
    And horse owners just hop in once in a century to have a stroll for fun.

    I don't go there as a./ I am allergic to horses :o))) of all things
    b./ the dogs living by the stables are awful awful :o)

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  • 422. At 11:16pm on 01 Sep 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    But I see them often on the beach; they are taken out for a stroll either in wood lanes or along the shore.

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  • 423. At 11:19pm on 01 Sep 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    But the dog's pack guarding the stables is plain awful! They shoot out from under the fence from all holes :o) join up :o) once on the road and effectively block the road to the beach.
    Because of these Jolly Ro has never been to the sea!!!! in these 10 yrs!!

    we can't pass by. We are old now and before were too young :o)))
    either way - I am against him fighting a pack.
    Though he before seemed to be for :o))))))))

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  • 424. At 11:21pm on 01 Sep 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    I don't even know if Jolly Ro can swim. Because of these stables!

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  • 425. At 11:23pm on 01 Sep 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    And, unknown Mavrelius

    you don't think it's a good year :o)))))))) to apologise to me?
    For being so stubborn!

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  • 426. At 11:25pm on 01 Sep 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Ellinas simply awesome TV :o))))))))))))

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  • 427. At 08:37am on 02 Sep 2010, anthony_ratkov wrote:

    If you've ever read a book about international law,you'd learn that treaties have been made that provide legal rights to 'stateless persons'. The Gypsies who were recently forced to leave France fit the definition of 'stateless persons',since France doesn't want them,Bulgaria doesn't want them,and Romania doesn't want them either. Under the law,even stateless individuals have rights. I read a report on a Bulgarian website that said the French government used power shovels to destroy the trailers that the Gypsies lived in. Certainly,the French government should be required to pay reparations to the Gypsies,since their rights as stateless persons had been violated by the French government.

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  • 428. At 09:47am on 02 Sep 2010, Zoli wrote:

    I am Hungarian and live in Budapest.The Roma are a huge problem and an enormous burden to this country. They only make up roughly five per cent of the population,yet they are probably one of the biggest expenses to the budget. Without exception 80 per cent of them live on benefits guaranteed.
    Everyone in the media just goes on about them being discriminated.And saying what a harsh life they have.However they often forget to mention what a terror they mean to the law abiding local Hungarians. Gypsies like engaging in harassing people on the bus with offensive comments.They just cannot behave,listen to loud music on the bus. They commit the vast majority of all the crimes and it is very unfair that we have to be scared of walking alone in some areas in our own land because of these dirty people that somehow got here 200 years ago.I hate the fact that every time i see them in a group i have to feel the tension in the air when it is my own country.
    No matter what initiatives the government does in order to integrate them,they simply won't! They are way too comfortable of living off the state by making babies. What's even more alarming is that their number is growing very quickly and in the long term there will be huge conflicts if that trend continuous. And of course if the Hungarian people will try to do something against it we will be demonized and condemned. And i bet the international media will forget to mention what struggles and harassment we have to go through in our every day life because if the police or the Hungarian people dare to do something though against it and step up against the situation we will be discriminative.

    What i think it is just about time that other European countries did take their part in dealing with this situation. Each European country has to experience what a problem these people are and maybe then the united Europe will come up with a central feasible solution.

    We have had enough of them in the past centuries! Let them disperse in Europe!

    Ps: I'm not a far right nationalist and I'm very pro European. I reckon myself more European than anything else really.However i do think that if we live in a united Europe as we do today each country has to take its part in finding a solution to this problem and by sending them back to the biggest despair of the locals is not the solution.

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  • 429. At 09:48am on 02 Sep 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @ 421 AliceInWonderLand
    "To be honest I am degrading there..."
    Come on darling, you are just relaxing there. Besides, you are supposed to be the master of the house. Duty first!

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  • 430. At 09:55am on 02 Sep 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @ 427 Anthony_Ratkov
    I totally agree, though it is virtually impossible to protest now. All of them are already back home (all the 13 poor devils expelled by the French).
    Glad to chat with a countryman here. It was high time...
    Note, Alice is Russian, Ellinas & Nik are from neighbour Greece.
    Regards

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  • 431. At 10:27am on 02 Sep 2010, generalissimo62 wrote:

    @ 428 Zoli
    A very instructive and honest comment indeed!
    However, I have met in my youth Roma people in Belgium. They differed much from the people we see every day begging at many street corners in Sofia. How does in happen that the local Gypsies in Brussels, Antwerp, Lys, managed to better integrate the Flemish/Valona people and, we, in the East, seem to be helpless to use correctly the government and/or the EU money that are aimed to the same purpose?
    True, in the old days we managed to make them dispersed and the positive results were evident, I mean that many Roma became physicians, very good musicians, army men, doctors, artists, etc. But after 1989, they have been totally abandoned to the mercy of the fate.
    Now, we have to restart the dialogue. I agree with you, that the fundamental principle of the free movement of the labour force requires another, collective, approach and that the EU is to decree some acceptable efficient measures when dealing with the Roma people. But who is going to make the first step?
    Regards

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  • 432. At 12:17pm on 02 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Zoltan;

    "I am Hungarian and live in Budapest.The Roma are a huge problem and an enormous burden to this country. They only make up roughly five per cent of the population,yet they are probably one of the biggest expenses to the budget. Without exception 80 per cent of them live on benefits guaranteed.
    Everyone in the media just goes on about them being discriminated.And saying what a harsh life they have.However they often forget to mention what a terror they mean to the law abiding local Hungarians."

    In my ancestry were people who fled Hungary over a century ago. I have no idea why but I'll bet it had something to do with the law abiding citizens of Hungary of that era. How interesting to find out that the law abiding citizens of Hungary today are terrorized by the Roma. You won't find any sympathy from me.

    What if all of the Roma in Europe were to exercise their right to travel freely and decended on Hungary. Hungarians might find that they are the minority in that country. Who knows, they might even change the name of the country to Romungany.

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  • 433. At 12:50pm on 02 Sep 2010, Nik wrote:

    """What if all of the Roma in Europe were to exercise their right to travel freely and decended on Hungary. Hungarians might find that they are the minority in that country. Who knows, they might even change the name of the country to Romungany."""

    Then they will sit all day and dance and live of state aid until final collapse and from there on will live on the bits and parts that multinationals that will take ruthlessly and very extrevertly and openly the country while the minority of Hungarians will work like proper slaves.

    Gipsies are a nomad culture. With everything that comes with it be it nice or bad. Time for you to grasp the reality MA. You will really have to have a lot of 1000-2000 them camping on your garden to realise what that means and then I would like to listen to you preaching to Hungarians*.

    * I guess you would not speak at all but would rush to your arms and start shooting like all proper Americans do.

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  • 434. At 00:07am on 03 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    Nickeloddeon

    "You will really have to have a lot of 1000-2000 them camping on your garden to realise what that means"

    "Then they will sit all day and dance"

    If there's wine and food I might just go out back and join them. Sounds like a good time to me. Unfortunately the cops would probably come around and shoo them away especially after several days. The laws about vagrancy, truancy, and camping outside in someone else's backyard are rather severe and they are enforced.

    Ah well, it was fun while it lasted.

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  • 435. At 01:17am on 05 Sep 2010, regit123 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 436. At 04:52am on 05 Sep 2010, David wrote:

    I realize that you are baiting Marcus, Nik,

    But, truly, we don't all own guns in the USA,

    Just a LOUD minority do own guns.

    tho I am tempted to own a taser weapon...

    Unfortunately, I would probably taser my cat or my friends.

    Can you imagine someone going on a tasering spree?

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  • 437. At 01:54am on 06 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

    DS;

    "I realize that you are baiting Marcus, Nik"

    I'd rather wake up to a backyard full of Roma than a backyard full of Greeks any day. At worst the Roma will take what cash you have in your pocket. The Greeks will talk you into an enormous loan they will never pay back.

    Hey Nik, I know Greece can't give back that now worthless useless junk it built for the Olympics with the money it borrowed but Greece might try to sell the Elgin Marbles to Britain. After all, Greece will never get them back anyway. It's not that the British are any less broke than Greece is, it's just that there are still people in Europe stupid enough to lend them money while Greece's credit has lost all credibility even there...except of course in Germany where new loans to Greece never leave Germany because they are used to pay back the old loans Greece owed German banks.

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  • 438. At 2:42pm on 06 Sep 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    o:)

    By the end of the first week, French border-guards who issued 300 euros to everyone leaving France began noticing familiar faces... And started to suspect that not all goes well with deportation....

    :o))))))))))))))

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  • 439. At 3:10pm on 06 Sep 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:

    Unfamiliar M @434

    "If there's wine and food I might just go out back and join them. Sounds like a good time to me."

    Why do I picture your party like this? :o)))))))


    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    Come on, moderators :o) there are 3 words of a song in Russian and the rest is classic gypsy dance. And the movie is for children; there is nothing un-PC there. Esp that's an old Soviet movie, setting us all high standards :o) re who is good who is bad in this world.

    The gypsy boy there is a total hero, and a model for development for all Russian children! For these ? approx since 70-s many years - the most beloved and famous gypsy of Russia. Jacob. Jacob the Gypsy.

    In the movie he is on reconnaisance! In the enemy Ukrainian camp! :o))))

    (note the lovely faces of his audience :o)))))

    Well, the movie is about the Civil War, about 1918, so those imperfect Ukrainians were, must be, unwilling to become Soviet Union :o))))) I am thinking now.
    No, they were not White not Red those are Green's gang. There were many streams and many colours in our Civil war. All setting old accounts long due! :o)))))

    As they say, "And a brother went with war at brother... Son at a father.... Grandfather - against ? forgot say his nephew.
    For it is real scary!
    Third day of a Russian wedding party!"
    :o)))))))))

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  • 440. At 06:17am on 17 Sep 2010, TheTrampolinist wrote:

    While the Roma may be currently highlighted in the news, this is not a new phenomenon.

    I lived just outside Florence from late 1980 to 1981. I used regularly to give money to gipsy women beggars who invariably had a very sick child with them.

    Many Florentines whom I knew, however, were aghast when I told them this, insisting that the gypsy beggars belonged to organised criminal gangs and that the sick children were in some cases deliberately maimed to elicit sympathy from bleeding hearts like me.

    Obscuring the likely views of the protagonists on the subject was that most Florentines whom I knew, all equally charming and persuasive in their views, seemed to belong either to the local Communist party or to the Neo-Fascists! The Communists insisted that the Gypsies were the undeserving victims of fascist Florentine discriminatory traditions. Unsurprisingly, the young Neo-Fascists were of a different opinion.

    I continued to give money to the female Gypsy beggars in Florence until one evening I saw a large group of them, women and children, being driven home or to work in a large, expensive looking, black Mercedes.

    After that point I stopped giving any more alms to the beggars.

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  • 441. At 01:48am on 29 Sep 2010, neonomad wrote:

    Apparently In Denmark first they were accused of criminality and them deported using an administrative procedure by the Police, all done without being brought to a court of law or having the possibility of defending themselves individually from the accusations. Shameful at so many levels.

    http://politiken.dk/newsinenglish/article1033647.ece
    http://politiken.dk/newsinenglish/article1030464.ece
    http://politiken.dk/newsinenglish/article1011653.ece
    http://jp.dk/uknews/article2143126.ece
    http://cphpost.dk/news/137-eu-news/49638-expelled-romani-to-sue-state-.html

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  • 442. At 7:06pm on 01 Oct 2010, neonomad wrote:

    A question to the panel.????

    Lets suppose some Roma EU citizens are accused of some crime in Denmark.
    Lets then suppose that because they have been accused of a crime the Danish Police uses an administrative procedure to deport them from Denmark.
    lets also assume that they were not brought before a court of law or convicted of any crime under Danish law and not given the possibility to defend themselves against the accusations before a judge. Just accused, applied the administrative procedure and deported.
    Lets then assume that the Danish Police carries out the deportations and puts the Roma EU citizens inside buses. I would like to remind at this point that they are not convicted of any crime, nor they were given the possibility to defend themselves against the accusations.
    So the Danish Police drive the Roma EU citizens all the way from Copenhagen across Denmark on their way to Romania or Bulgaria....does not matter.
    The bus with the Danish Police inside controlling the deportations of Roma EU citizens crosses the Danish border and enters Germany....
    The Roma EU citizens free from any conviction of any crime in Denmark or any where in the EU, kept inside a bus guarded by the Danish Police in German territory, decide they want to leave the bus.... The Danish Police keeps them inside the bus using force to carry out the deportation all the way to Romania....or Bulgaria. does not matter.
    If they are free Roma EU citizens kept against their will inside a bus by the Danish Police in Germany, Is that not kidnapping?????
    And if it is kidnapping and kidnapping is a crime in Germany, shouldn't the German Police free the hostages and arrest the kidnappers....????
    After all they are free Roma EU citizens not convicted of any crime, nor wanted for any crime any were in the EU, kept inside a bus against their will, by the authorities of another country...????
    Does it not mean that the authorities of one country have the duty to act inside their country against the authorities of another country that are keeping free citizens in their power against their will, using force.?????

    This of course is all hypothetical???

    http://politiken.dk/newsinenglish/article1033647.ece
    http://politiken.dk/newsinenglish/article1030464.ece
    http://politiken.dk/newsinenglish/article1011653.ece
    http://jp.dk/uknews/article2143126.ece
    http://cphpost.dk/news/137-eu-news/49638-expelled-romani-to-sue-state-.html

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  • 443. At 4:50pm on 05 Nov 2010, Rich wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

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