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Going nuclear

Betsan Powys | 12:42 UK time, Tuesday, 10 November 2009

_1136305_wylfa300.jpgOn or near the top of the list at this morning's Welsh Assembly Government lobby briefing would have been a question about yesterday's UK Government announcement on the next generation of nuclear power stations.

Near the top too would have been a question or two about Carwyn Jones, the Counsel General's views on the future direction of public services in Wales and the response of the Finance Minister and the Health Minister to those views.

In the event, there was little point raising either issue. There was no government minister there to take our questions. A first - out of fairness, let me make that much clear. The Chief Medical Officer, who did step up to the mark, was informative about swine flu ("the WAG has followed a pathway that we are proud of") but not in a position to give the goverment's response to much of anything else. Why would he? He's the CMO stupid.

So why was he standing in for a government minister?

Was there a particular minister who wanted to avoid the lobby this week? Or was there a cabinet hair-washing session happening upstairs?

Let's hope this first is also a last.

So back to nuclear, specifically a new nuclear power station on Anglesey - Wylfa B. We know where this First Minister and his government stand on nuclear power in Wales. Rhodri Morgan was interviewed yesterday and re-iterated the official government line: "We remain of the view that the high level of interest in exploiting the huge potential for renewable energy obviates the need for new nuclear in Wales".

"Obviates". That's clear enough. We don't believe it's needed. We don't want it.

The Assembly Government doesn't get to make the decision but wants public hearings before any new nuclear build on the Wylfa site.

The Assembly Government is concerned about waste: "it remains our intention to protect people in Wales in terms of hazardous waste".

The Plaid Deputy First Minister does want Wylfa B of course but only when he's wearing his hat as the local Assembly Member. His government is opposed to it. His party is opposed to it but the Anglesey AM is pleased that "the UK government has stated its position in terms of nuclear energy".

So what about the three would-be First Ministers? My colleague Iolo ap Dafydd, the Environment Correspondent, was bang on with his timing yesterday when he considered the candidates' view on energy and environmental matters.

Let's hone in on the one candidate whose views are, we know already, in contradiction to the current government policy.

A few weeks ago Carwyn Jones said was it was "time to get real on climate change". A robust start. He went on. "I believe nuclear power will form part of Wales' low carbon response to the serious challenges we face in the years to come. "

Will form.

His views are perfectly clear and in contradiction to the current First Minister and the current Welsh Assembly Government. He supports nuclear as part of the Welsh energy mix as long as the waste question is dealt with.

So a straightforward question then: if Carwyn Jones is elected Labour leader on December 1st and becomes First Minister on December 8th, what will the Welsh government's policy on nuclear energy be by December 9th?

A finger is decisively pointed at the paragraph above: " .. nuclear power will form part of Wales' low carbon response to the serious challenges we face in the years to come". How it's implemented, how it's articulated? That'll be up to the government - which is a coalition after all - to work out.

"Can't see the Deputy First Minister complaining too loudly though, can you?" asks one who clearly has it all worked out.

But just hang on. Let's hone in another of the leadership candidates - Edwina Hart. In her manifesto she states that as "to sources of energy, I have always taken the view that, where nuclear power is concerned, only the highest degree of scepticism is sensible. We must never forget that the safety issues which come with nuclear power are not simply ones for the present generation but for the future".

Does that sound like she supports Wylfa B? No, it doesn't. But she does. She does as long as the waste question is solved and is rather more sceptical that can be done than her fellow leadership candidate, Carwyn Jones. But Edwina Hart supports Wylfa B.

And Huw Lewis? He too supports Wylfa B. It's a community that's used to nuclear goes the argument. It's a community desperate for jobs. It's a distinct case.

So there's the hat-trick. All three candidates on the record as supporting Wylfa B, unlike Rhodri Morgan.

The leader of the opposition has clearly worked out that here may be an Achilles' heel for the Assembly Government. Nick Bourne went big on the nuclear issue at FMQs. Where does the government stand on Wylfa B, he asked repeatedly?

Rhodri Morgan's response - "There was a lengthy discussion in Cabinet yesterday, and there has been no development of our policy."

That discussion was chaired of course, by a First Minister who is against new nuclear in Wales. Naturally no "development" of the policy, no going on the record in favour of Wylfa B.

But what would be the outcome of the same discussion in January next year chaired by a First Minister who IS on record as being in favour of Wylfa B?

Would collective cabinet responsibility mean that someone like current Environment Minister Jane Davidson, a leading supporter of Carwyn Jones as it happens, would be expected to go in front of the cameras and make a vigorous argument in favour of Wylfa B? And would she?

Comments

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  • 1. At 3:10pm on 10 Nov 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    Betsan,it is naive to think that anyone other than those wicked MP's at
    Westminster will have the blame for 'imposing' nuclear sites on the people of Wales.Timed to perfection wouldn't you say?

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  • 2. At 3:18pm on 10 Nov 2009, Crossroads wrote:


    We're against it...we're for it...no wait a minute, we're against it again...or are we really for it...though what would Rhodri say?

    What a useless bunch of dithering hypocrites they all are !

    Surprise surprise...the biggest (smallest?) of them being our flip-flopping friend the deputy first minister.

    As far as I can work out, he is against nuclear power everywhere except on Anglesey!!!!!!
    Careful now, this has shades of IWJ's Questiontime debacle when Glenys Kinnock(of all people) wiped the floor with our Ieuan over the sainted Seimon Glyn. Something incidentally a helluva lot of us would love to see again...where's the video BBC ?

    Our diminutive deputy seems to be making a habit of facing both ways at once. A position that entails no little amount of extremely fast spinning,..sorry rotation.

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  • 3. At 3:28pm on 10 Nov 2009, John Henry wrote:


    Fortunately consideration of power strategy is not in the remit of Cardiff Bay, if it were the lights would darken very quickly, with Rhodri Morgan due to exit stage the question of his support of nuclear power is academic, and when does Jane Davidson exit this same stage.

    There is room for a brace of power stations on Cardigan Bay, and another pair along the Bristol channel, with a little foresight Wales could become a premier Nuclear concentration of excellence .....



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  • 4. At 3:49pm on 10 Nov 2009, SEDWOT wrote:

    Wylfa B. is an interesting Topic.

    Albert Owen, Labour MP for Ynys Mon, Wants it. It brings employment to the poorest County in the whole UK.

    Westminster wants it; UK needs the power, Albert Owen needs the votes, so they have to bypass the likes of anti-nuclear pressure group PAWB (People Against Wylfa B) hence the fast tracking of planning consent.

    Rhodri may or may not want it but he has to say that he doesn't because if its going to be "Imposed on Wales" from Westminster he doesn't want to be seen as a part of that.

    (COFIO WYLFA B!)

    Plaid Don't want it because they don't want power generation in excess of Wales's needs and they want the opportunity to wring their hands and wail that it's being imposed on us poor Welsh from LONDON.

    Ieuan Wyn Jones REALLY doesn't want it because it will bring construction crews from all over Britain (The population of Ynys Mon increased by 10,000 in the years 1965 to 1975 as first Wylfa and then Anglesey Aluminium were constructed and manned. These people don't vote PLAID)

    However Ieuan Wyn Jones has to support Wylfa B because he can't allow Albert Owen to accuse him or Dylan Rees (prospective Plaid Westminster candidate) of not caring about employment on Ynys Mon.

    Dylan Rees knows that he has already fallen on his face because the Plaid lead council decided to save money by closing two out of three Swimming pools in the county and one out of four leisure centres. People quickly noticed that amenities in Plaid's power centre, Llangefni, remained immune whilst the well used pool in Holyhead (Albert Owen's core vote lives here) was destined for closure. The leisure centre in the English enclave of Beaumaris was set for closure.

    Dylan Rees quickly jumped on the bandwagon of those protesting AGAINST Plaid's proposals.

    As for the Liberal Democrats- who gives a s--t what they think, they don't poll more than 2000 round here.

    Tory's? as long as they can get someone on the board of whichever company gets the contract they'l support anything.

    I just know everyone will love this next para.

    Welsh language activists would rather rip out their own eyes than see Wylfa B built. The demographic change would tip Ynys Mon into the under 50% Welsh speakers category.

    Bring it on!

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  • 5. At 4:07pm on 10 Nov 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "Plaid lead council decided to save money by closing two out of three Swimming pools in the county and one out of four leisure centres."

    Plaid led - really?

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  • 6. At 5:28pm on 10 Nov 2009, Igotitallwrongsorry wrote:

    The first responsibility of the state is to protect its citizens from external and internal threats (of what ever type),and also provide employment/energy/sound money etc,and this bunch of clowns down the Bay of Irrelevance aint up to its current responsibilities let alone wanting more. Why is there this anti Nuclear/GM crops sentiment in welsh politics as clearly we are not a stand alone country,but part of the United Kingdom which has pretty succesfully managed to make its way in the world.Hopefully the UK government will start getting the NP plants we want,and ignore the yearnings of King Rhodri for some idyllic wales situated somewhere in the 1360's. Its a no wonder our beloved leader The Right Honourable Anthony Charles Lynton Blair PM did'nt give him a "bag carriers" job as he has shown himself to be ridiculous over this NP issue.Instead of being a proper First Minister and spelling out realities to welsh people he's playing some form of low politics which he hopes will curry favour with the NATS who are the hated enemy of ordinary folk in the english speaking heartlands of wales. Is there any way we can organize a petition to give the people of Anglesey some form of independance and IWJ can then become KING in his own backyard.Its a funny old world where the ordinary people of Anglesey want this sort of investment and are happy with prospect of new NP plant,whereas a political elite with huge salaries etc etc in Cardiff are opposed to it in principle.

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  • 7. At 5:30pm on 10 Nov 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    3.A case of will the last one out switch the lights out?
    I suppose in that context we could blame Eluned Morgan now she's got a cushy number with SWALEC. But what about Jane Davidson where will she go to bolster her pension? EON,Dragon LNG,4GAS? What an advert for women only lists.

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  • 8. At 8:38pm on 10 Nov 2009, paul luckock wrote:

    This blog from Betsan is why we pay our TV licence. Nowhere else have I learnt what the positions of the Labour leadership candidates are or for that matter the views of other leading politicians on the nuclear power issue in Wales. The paucity of the North Wales printed newspapers means that many residents living here struggle to find out what our AMs and MPs think and vote on.Democracy is genuinely restricted if we do not have journalists and proprietors who ensure the real information is mined and reprted widely.Congratulations on reporting this information, we the voters can now call people to account.

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  • 9. At 07:17am on 11 Nov 2009, Benedek wrote:

    It would pay those Assembly politicians like Rhodri Morgan to to read the article by Dieter Helm in today's Times and also a recent edition of the Economist on energy policy. To argue that Wales somehow can opt out any UK wide energy policy and rely on renewables and coal is just laughable. It really sums up the lazy ideological approach to policy making in the Assembly. The real issue is why it has taken the UK government so long to decide on a nuclear programme. People better get used to the fact that over the next few years energy prices will continue to increase as we are forced to make up for ther failure of policy makers in the past 13 years to deal with the energy crisis. Rather than arguing for an inquiry into the new Wylfa AMs should be asking why wasn't it replaced before the present power station came to the end of its life span. If it had we would still see Angelsey Aluminium employing people. Ieaun Wyn Jones can't have it both ways. Either he is for nuclear energy or he is against.

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  • 10. At 07:54am on 11 Nov 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:



    This issue and the comments made on this blog emphasises the absurd and tragic way in which decisions are made in this country.

    The stance of Rhodri Morgan on nuclear power is even more ridiculous than his stance on the Iraq war. With his eye clearly on a popularity contest, he hesitates then goes with public opinion so he can then blame those nasty MP's and that terrible place called Westminster on all the nasty jobs he has to do. His inability to make a decision on anything means that we the people have suffered as a result.

    However this is one decision that has to be made, it cannot be fudged, and perhaps that is why Cardiff Bay cannot be trusted on this issue. What is worse is this comment.

    Would collective cabinet responsibility mean that someone like current Environment Minister Jane Davidson, a leading supporter of Carwyn Jones as it happens, would be expected to go in front of the cameras and make a vigorous argument in favour of Wylfa B? And would she?

    Put her in front of the cameras to make a vigorous argument and the televisions will change to another channel or be switched off!

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  • 11. At 08:35am on 11 Nov 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    10. Hear Hear Jane Davidson is a primary school teacher who wants to be
    Queen she has no expertise in her remit other than being a researcher for
    Rhodri Morgan. No wonder she'll step down when he goes with a big fat pension for turning Wales into an overgrown energy park reminicent of the city of her childhood Birmingham.Wind farms here wind farms there but no windfarms in Gwaelod y Garth.The welsh version of Kate Hoey her
    legacy and double standards will blight a once beautiful Wales for years.

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  • 12. At 09:43am on 11 Nov 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #11 Said

    "she has no expertise in her remit other than being a researcher for
    Rhodri Morgan....her legacy and double standards will blight a once beautiful Wales for years."


    The legacy and double standards will also about what was concealed and "spin doctored" by Rhodri Morgan and Jane Davidson during her time as Education Minister.

    The new leader may well be forced to take the lid off, and as far as the general election is concerned it would be better for Labour if it was sooner rather than later.

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  • 13. At 11:43am on 11 Nov 2009, FoDafydd wrote:

    Re 11 & 12

    It must be miserable being so miserable all the time!

    And Alan Johnson is a former policeman, I suppose? Just as Ken Clarke used to be a teacher and a nurse in his former life? Are you people for real?

    What government on this planet appoints ministers that way? I don't expect you'll answer.

    You're so extreme, that I'm finding myself defending Labour ministers!!!!

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  • 14. At 12:09pm on 11 Nov 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #13 You said

    "And Alan Johnson is a former policeman, I suppose? Just as Ken Clarke used to be a teacher and a nurse in his former life? Are you people for real?"

    The truth is that Alan Johnson was a postman and head of the post office union, while Ken Clarke was a barrister.

    Not sure what point you are trying to make but my advice is grow up and you may be taken seriously!

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  • 15. At 1:44pm on 11 Nov 2009, Gwyn Jones wrote:

    Fo Dafydd's post is called "SARCASM" , look it up in your English only dictionary. By the way, your lot in the Quisling Corner should keep on posting as they are always good for a laugh. I imagine that your postings would be scrawled in crayon if they were letters.

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  • 16. At 2:24pm on 11 Nov 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    14/15 Why for you say that? Don't you know 'sarcasm' is the lowest form of wit and believe me what you or FiFi says is an irrelevance(a state of being irrelevant)at any level. Stick to your Bobanogi and Bob y Bildar
    and enjoy the rest of your playtime.

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  • 17. At 2:48pm on 11 Nov 2009, Gwyn Jones wrote:

    Re 16. So that hurt did it? Good!

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  • 18. At 3:02pm on 11 Nov 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    17. No just satisfied my contempt for you and your party.

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  • 19. At 3:24pm on 11 Nov 2009, FoDafydd wrote:

    Re 18

    Well, if you really think we are only schoolkids, why bother responding?

    But I asked a question, and as usual the antis won't or can't answer. So, I'll try again - what other government, anywhere in the world, is chosen in that way? And would any Energy Minister now - to follow the logic of your thinking - need to be a nuclear scientist?

    You need to tell your beloved Westminster just how wrong they are.

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  • 20. At 3:25pm on 11 Nov 2009, FoDafydd wrote:

    Re 18

    "No just satisfied my contempt for you and your party."

    I pity you.

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  • 21. At 3:38pm on 11 Nov 2009, Gwyn Jones wrote:

    Re 18. That's got me worried now. Your reply was not written in crayon this time but with words cut out of a newspaper with a pair of plastic scissors.

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  • 22. At 4:05pm on 11 Nov 2009, Crossroads wrote:

    Jeez...this is playground stuff (even by my admittedly low standards)

    "My dad can bash your dad"

    "That's nothing, my dad'll s*** your dad, and what's more your dad'll enjoy it"


    (With apologies to Frankie Boyle, Mock the week)

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  • 23. At 4:20pm on 11 Nov 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    Welsh medium education?

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  • 24. At 4:37pm on 11 Nov 2009, FoDafydd wrote:

    Re 23

    For us to debate, you need to respond. So perhaps you will attempt to answer my question and justify your ridiculous proposition. There's no point the antis crying foul, and talking of childishness, when it is they who are responsible for that by refusing to answer any question - EVER!

    If they can't, then, please, just admit to it.

    And if you want to discuss Welsh Medium Education perhaps you'd like to join me on Vaughan Roderick's blog to do that.

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  • 25. At 4:37pm on 11 Nov 2009, Gwyn Jones wrote:

    You are quite right Noah. I've been reading this Betsan's Blog for some time without posting, but every intelligent discussion on this forum is spoilt and ends in Welsh bashing. "You and your language are inferior", etc. I think FoDafydd should get a proper reply from thegnatswatter. After he has kept his crayons and plastic scissors of course. (Sorry but I couldn't help myself from posting the last sentence!)

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  • 26. At 4:43pm on 11 Nov 2009, John Henry wrote:

    Benedek has the rights of it at #9 when he writes .....

    To argue that Wales somehow can opt out any UK wide energy policy and rely on renewable and coal is just laughable. It really sums up the lazy ideological approach to policy making in the Assembly. The real issue is why it has taken the UK government so long to decide on a nuclear programme.


    An excellent example of when ideology replaces reality, it rarely fulfils a need.

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  • 27. At 4:53pm on 11 Nov 2009, comeoffit wrote:

    Gwyn Jones wrote:

    "You and your language are inferior"

    It's true Gwyn... it does feel increasingly like that since 1997. Still... us English speaking Welsh battle on! "Chin up" as they say ;) haha

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  • 28. At 5:01pm on 11 Nov 2009, comeoffit wrote:

    FoDafydd wrote:
    "And if you want to discuss Welsh Medium Education perhaps you'd like to join me on Vaughan Roderick's blog to do that."

    What a horribly spiteful comment and empty invitation. Perhaps thegnatswatter might just do that armed with google translate. Still you Welsh nationalists wouldnt really want us English speakers joining in with your secretive plotting. Join you on Vaughan Rodderick's blog indeed...pull the other one! you'll be telling me they're going to publish 'Golwg' bilingually next :)

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  • 29. At 5:29pm on 11 Nov 2009, John Henry wrote:


    This is how the Welsh nationalist supporters see the United Kingdom energy issues .....

    ..... We in Wales can produce all the electricity we need from renewable sources, but the Assembly can't develop it on any scale because it is not a devolved matter. Instead we are locked into an agenda that suits England's energy needs rather than our own.


    The poor pathetic sap seems to think that Wales is not part of the United Kingdom, another of the chattering classes that needs a reality check.


    Read the ideas of this particular separatist at ...

    .... ridiculous musings ....

    .... and understand why things are not so good in Wales, the writer has the arrogance to consider himself an expert .... another case of agenda takes precedence over reality.

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  • 30. At 5:37pm on 11 Nov 2009, FoDafydd wrote:

    Re 28

    Still no answers...?

    The gnat, I believe, has told us that he had Welsh at school. I was responding to the usual unthinking, meaningless jibe at Welsh medium education, so if you're feeling angry, then perhaps you have targeted the wrong person.

    So no one wants to debate.

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  • 31. At 5:58pm on 11 Nov 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    Just as your having a nice conversation with like minded people in pokes
    the ever growing probiscus of Bethans Blogs resident Pinoccio Fi Dafydd
    with his acid tongue and puerile remarks he butts in like the troll in big billy goat gruff and kills the conversation dead.We'll resume tomorrow Neo when they're back at school. Yet another non de plume returnee? It's must be worrying all these identities?

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  • 32. At 6:10pm on 11 Nov 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    The ready availability of cheap energy is what drives our civilisation.

    For many reasons, not just climate change, we need a power source that is going to sustain us for the next 40 to 100 years, until fully renewable supplies or fusion can be developed and deployed.
    Our energy demand is and will continue to rise - its the only way we can survive and maintain our population.
    Wind cannot do it alone, it is possible that renewables never can.

    To maintain the quality of life, for even the poorest person in the UK, currently available from cheap energy at the flick of a switch, would need 100 to 200 full time slaves to replicate.

    Nuclear is the bridge - the Greens and CND with the black propoganda in the 80's have left us a legacy that is going to be difficult to deal with.

    The Anti's have no real science, safety, or engineering expertise objections - France happily and safely runs on Nuclear power, in fact we import many megawatt's from them daily.

    The problem is fear engendered by propoganda, emotion and political spin. - time to get real!!

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  • 33. At 7:19pm on 11 Nov 2009, Igotitallwrongsorry wrote:

    The NATS are clearly "bonkers" as they are opposed to Nuclear Power in Wales (even though it will great economic benefits),whilst they are happy taken electricity from France (produced by NP),and have no power what so ever in creation of NP stations (across border as beloved by BBC Wales),however King Rhodri by decree will not allow contamination to welsh people. The NATS are also opposed to GM crops,even though thousands of welsh people eat the produce when visiting Spain and do not appear with two heads when they return home.It also appears that Jill Evans (EP)and NAT of first water is opposed to creation of major "defence" establishment in St.Athan as it forms part of war mongering mentality.There can be no doubt that the NATS with friends in BBC Wales and S4 C have far too time on media as they are irrelevant to ordinary people,except their "soul mate",i.e. King Rhodri of CYMRU. Can you imagine the M4,Rhoose Airport,A railway line from LONDON to Milford Have, Penicillin being granted approval by the jokers??.

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  • 34. At 7:54pm on 11 Nov 2009, FoDafydd wrote:

    Re 33

    So the gnat is mapexx!!!

    Wonderful - if that's the level of opposition when the referendum comes, then bring it on!

    West-Wales,

    It is no surprise that many of us are, at the very least, wary of nuclear. To say that this is just a result of black propaganda is to be disingenuous at best. Many of us in certain areas have had far too many cases of cancer in our families for it to be just that. Far too many. No.33 is deeply offensive.

    The sheep around Trawsfynydd are still far too radioactive to be eaten. Now, isn't it strange that Trawsfynydd alone in that part of the world should still be suffering from the effects of a far-off explosion in Chernobyl?

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  • 35. At 8:21pm on 11 Nov 2009, John Henry wrote:


    #34 Is there any truth in what FoDafydd wrote .....

    The sheep around Trawsfynydd are still far too radioactive to be eaten. Now, isn't it strange that Trawsfynydd alone in that part of the world should still be suffering from the effects of a far-off explosion in Chernobyl?


    By implying that Trawsfynydd is responsible for radioactive sheep is not just disingenuous, by deceitful, a typical ploy of Plaid Cymru supporters writing in this blog. If they cannot find a suitable truth, they invent the lie, you should be run out of town FoDafydd, or tarred and feathered.


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  • 36. At 9:11pm on 11 Nov 2009, FoDafydd wrote:

    Re 35

    Stonemason,

    "you should be run out of town FoDafydd, or tarred and feathered."

    You may find deaths from cancer in my, and other people's families amusing; I do not.

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  • 37. At 10:17am on 12 Nov 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    34.With the fear that the resurgent market for 'welsh lamb' might be seriously compromised by a scurrilous rumour of radio active sheep in and around Trawsfynedd I think you should produce up to date credible evidence to support your claims or retract.

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  • 38. At 1:06pm on 12 Nov 2009, John Henry wrote:


    It's not about being amused FoDafydd, it's about a Plaid supporter making statements about public safety without supportive evidence ..........

    ......... evidence or retract, you may of course seek absolution in the holy water of political spin, if you choose absolution let us know where it is happening so that we may witness a public expression of "regret ..........."

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  • 39. At 1:37pm on 12 Nov 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    38.He's spewing his bile on another blog at this moment Stoney .

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  • 40. At 2:37pm on 12 Nov 2009, FoDafydd wrote:

    Re 39

    That is a lie. I have not been on any other blog, so you might like to apologize for that lie. Why you have decided to bring such nastiness onto this blog is beyond me; but, that, ultimately, is your problem.

    It is a fact that there are still restrictions in the Trawsfynydd area, as well as certain other parts of the north. My initial point remains the same; local people, who obviously accept the part Chernobyl played in all of this, are wary of nuclear because some pockets have suffered more than others - and the area around has suffered particularly badly.

    And people's deaths are not a matter for cheap, nasty humour.

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  • 41. At 2:39pm on 12 Nov 2009, Lyn David Thomas wrote:

    Firstly there are still a number of farms in Snowdonia where the radiation levels are still too high to permit the sale of sheep. This is indeed the legacy of nuclear power, from Chenobyl rather than from our home grown reactors. Yet our own reactors have been less than wonderful, the Windscale Fire killed many hundreds of people years later from cancer. We have a legacy of material that can't be handled for thousands of years and still no solution to its disposal.

    No the debate is more complex than the crude Plaid bashing that we are seeing here.
    Energy policy is complex, a dash for nuclear is not the answer for the following reasons.

    1. the technology is very expensive - decommissioning costs billions - let alone the construction costs.
    2. energy security isn't attained, the raw material has to be bought from other countries and processed at great cost.
    3. no solution in sight for the waste disposal question.
    4. the byproducts can be used as weapons, the less fissile material or material for a dirty bomb the better.
    5. terrorism - more risk with pollution caused by terrorist attacks
    6. safety, a nuclear accident will produce far more deaths than one involving any other type of power station.
    7. power transmission problems with large stations, better solutions with local smaller stations.
    8. even if a chash building program was entered into now, we would not see power from them for at least 8 years.

    Now what I would suggest we need a real move to energy efficiency - we can substantially reduce our energy requirements both domestic and commercial by better use of energy. A crash program of insulation and far higher building standards would go substantially to improving both our energy security, reduce our bills and save energy. Actually the Welsh Government have shown the way on this with a refit of government offices that will save £5 million a year on energy costs. But a huge boost could be given to the economy by investing (yes by borrowing) money in upgrading every home to the best insulation standards that they can be taken to. Energy costs are going to rise - that is inevitable, renewable energy is the the long term way forward. Wave and wind power are variable so energy capture technologies will need to be evolved to cope with the peaks and troughs of supply, I would point at the Dinorwig pump storage system as one of many possible solutions.

    Nuclear creates more problems than it solves, we need to be creative, we need to take action now, and what ever we do we realise that it has cost implications. This is too serious for a ya bo type debate.

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  • 42. At 2:58pm on 12 Nov 2009, FoDafydd wrote:

    Re 40

    I meant to write:

    and the area around Trawsfynydd has suffered particularly badly.

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  • 43. At 3:45pm on 12 Nov 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    41. Where's your evidence? Where are these farms? Facts not speculation?

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  • 44. At 3:48pm on 12 Nov 2009, John Henry wrote:


    .....Nuclear creates more problems than it solves

    Spin from the anti-nuclear lobby, as is your want.

    Yesterday in Parliament .....

    Cheryl Gillan (Shadow Secretary of State for Wales)
    As a new nuclear power station at Wylfa would provide much-needed quality jobs in an area devastated by the closure of Anglesey Aluminium, I am pleased to endorse the Secretary of State's welcome for the project. However, what discussions has he had with the First Minister in the Assembly, who has contradicted him and is opposing any new nuclear build in Wales?

    Peter Hain (Secretary of State, Wales Office;)
    ........ As for the nuclear power project on Anglesey, Wylfa B, my hon. Friend Albert Owen has lobbied me hard on this. We are working together to ensure that we can take it forward. I am very pleased that the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change has prioritised it, and I know that the Welsh Assembly Government candidates standing for the Labour leadership, and therefore for the First Minister's position, have all supported the Wylfa B project. I shall continue to work with them, whoever is elected, to take that forward.

    Cheryl Gillan (Shadow Secretary of State for Wales)
    But there is a real problem with the Secretary of State's party's position. He is supporting Wylfa but the First Minister is against it. I admit that Mr. Jones—the frontrunner to succeed the First Minister—is in favour, but the Labour Assembly Minister for Environment, Sustainability and Housing, Jane Davidson, is against it and wants a public inquiry. Are not these dangerously mixed messages to be sending out over such an important project for the Welsh economy?

    Peter Hain (Secretary of State, Wales Office;)
    No, not at all, because the decision is taken by the UK Government. It has not just my backing but that of my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change and the Prime Minister, and it also has the redoubtable backing of my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn. We intend to take the project forward in the future, and I am sure that when we do, it will have the backing of the Welsh Assembly Government. ......

    It seems that Plaid activists are at odds with both their coalition partners and certain senior Plaid plods, out of touch old chums, with reality and your leadership.

    Interesting that Hain body swerved mention of Rhodri Morgan, see above in bold, Nuclear is coming.

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  • 45. At 4:19pm on 12 Nov 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    40. I refer you to your post on 'Five minutes with...... 'dated 12.08 pm 12 Nov.

    33. I'm flattered to be mistaken for Maapex but alas I'm not but I do hope he's in good health.

    30. Why would I want to use a language which was imposed on me against
    mine and my parents wishes back in the fifties a language that has proved absolutely useless in my english speaking existence in the so called welsh speaking heartlands( there is no such place) of rural Carmarthenshire.

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  • 46. At 5:03pm on 12 Nov 2009, FoDafydd wrote:

    Re 45

    With your undoubtedly superior knowledge of the English language, I would have expected you to have expressed yourself rather more clearly in that case. This is still Betsan's blog.

    As for your other predictable hate filled message about the language, well it's up there with the other things that you detest then, isn't it? Foreigners, for instance.

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  • 47. At 5:27pm on 12 Nov 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    46. You and your party don't believe in welsh jobs for welsh people then?

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  • 48. At 5:56pm on 12 Nov 2009, FoDafydd wrote:

    Re 47

    Neither I nor 'my party' believe in picking on any ethnic group or minority and blaming them for the current economic crisis in Wales, the UK, Europe and worldwide. To do so would be racist.

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  • 49. At 6:35pm on 12 Nov 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    48. Do you and your party support welsh jobs for welsh people? A simple
    Yes or No will do.

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  • 50. At 6:59pm on 12 Nov 2009, FoDafydd wrote:

    Re 49

    Funny how those who never, ever have the guts to answer questions posed by us on the sunny side of life, always demand answers to theirs!

    Tell me first what YOU mean by 'Welsh jobs'? Are you saying that the English should be excluded as well?

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  • 51. At 7:36pm on 12 Nov 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    Lyn #41
    There is little in your post I can support - while you are right about the Windscale and Chernobal failures - virtually every thing you say is inaccurate, and demonstrably so.

    The technologies and operating procedures that led to the Windscale and Chernobyl tragedies are no longer used.
    With modern plant, even with deliberate intervention, catastrophic failure has an extremely low probability.

    Unlike the old Gas Cooled Reactors, modern plant is designed to be decommisioned cheaply with full safe removal and recovery of radiated material.

    Security of fuel supply is assured - in the event of political uncertainty, breeder reactors and/or radioactive waste reprocessing can secure our fuel supply.

    There are several proven safe disposal routes for waste, with reprocessing a realistic option.

    Terrorism is an issue - but it will be whether or not we go Nuclear, fissile material is not just used in the UK but world wide.
    In fact we can probably store it more safely here than anywhere.
    Use of fissile material as weapons is a possibility - using nitrogen fertiliser is cheaper easier and effective, - probably does not have the same propoganda value.

    Your concerns over Nuclear accidents are unfounded. Today's technology ensures such an event would be small scale and very unlikely. Do some research!!! Ask experts not Greens!!

    Your comment power transmission problems with large stations, better solutions with local smaller stations. demonstrates a lack of knowledge.
    The Tory party in the "Quality of Life" study some years ago were advocating this approach, but were quickly convinced by experts that it was unworkable.
    Whatever power generation system is chosen a National Grid is needed to distribute and provide alternative routes in the event of failure.

    The French Nuclear program demonstrates that not only is Nuclear Power safe, but cheap and efficient.
    It will take 8 years to build and commission a nuclear power station,and we simply do not have the experts, industrial capacity, or resources to build more than one or two at a time.
    Nor can we economically buy in - the world is rapidly going nuclear - China has plans for 100 stations on line before 2015.

    Thanks to the Greens, and short sighted politics, by 2015 the UK will have a serious generating capacity shortfall.
    Blair & Browns legacy will be that the lights will start to go out.

    Do some sums - the energy efficiency saving approach you suggest will only scratch the surface.
    We need replacement generating capacity urgently, and whether you like it or not Nuclear is the fastest, safest, and cheapest way to achieve that.

    The arguments have been thoroughly researched and the Green position exposed as nonsense - we don't have time to waste prevaricating on this.

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  • 52. At 4:26pm on 13 Nov 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    Fi Dafydd Welsh jobs for welsh people? Affordable housing for welsh people? Education for welsh people? Health for welsh people? I thought thats what Plaid stood for? The Party of Wales.(We will put the needs of the people of Wales first). So I ask you again welsh jobs for welsh people? Yes or No.

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  • 53. At 4:53pm on 13 Nov 2009, FoDafydd wrote:

    Re 52

    Putting Wales first? Yes of course. But jobs only for Welsh people? I think that's racist isn't it? But you've said that you believe in that, haven't you? Keep out the migrants, that's what you said. So, what does that make you then?

    So there we have it, the gnat, a Labour man who wants to ban English people, and anyone else, from having jobs in Wales!!!

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  • 54. At 5:11pm on 13 Nov 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    Where have I said keep out migrants? Where have I mentioned any race other than my own? I would suggest you read Plaids many websites and
    then come back with a credible answer. Is it racist to put welsh people
    first?

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  • 55. At 5:45pm on 13 Nov 2009, FoDafydd wrote:

    Re 54

    The old memory's playing up then? Well, here's what you said:

    "It could only happen in Wales a fully skilled workforce on the dole
    and a migrant workforce fully employed. As well as TAKING OUR JOBS (my capitals) by undercutting our rates and working without safety they're given grants to start up businesses and rent accomodation can use the NHS and can even claim for family members back in their home lands.How does that improve our GDP?
    Politicians avoid the subject like the plague,those in work say that they
    work harder(bulls**t)and the benefits office and works and pensions cut
    the benefits of welsh workers to pay for it all."

    "Taking our jobs, eh?" I think there is a political party that is very much into that kind of language.

    And you're not happy for these people to use the NHS, then? Not even if they are seriously ill? Would that include their children also?

    I don't know where Plaid's 'MANY websites' are meant to be, but I'd like you to show me one example of the kind of bigotry you've displayed.

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  • 56. At 6:15pm on 13 Nov 2009, John Henry wrote:


    #55 Fo .....

    Try Alan in Dyfed .......... Plaid at work in the community. The posting is titled ..... Devolutionary Land Grab in Gwynedd

    Is this Plaid racism ??????

    ... Provide alternative developmental plans that reflect local people’s needs and local people’s aspirations.

    ... National Border and at numerous points within the plans acknowledges that Welsh identity will be lost and that this is caused by in migration from the North West of England.

    ... The plans are social engineering and should never have been allowed to be implemented.


    thegnatswatter is vindicated, Plaid hides behind its activists' skirts, to see the list go to . Bloggers for Plaid .

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  • 57. At 6:25pm on 13 Nov 2009, FoDafydd wrote:

    Re 56

    gnat vindicated?!

    Are you now saying local people's needs are not relevant?! Are you? Please tell.

    Strange that you are not scandalized by gnat's comments, though. Is it a case of if it comes from the antis any old bigotry will do? Do you agree with him that English people shouldn't get jobs in Wales? Do you? Please tell. It's what he said. I most certainly don't agree with him.

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  • 58. At 6:28pm on 13 Nov 2009, John Henry wrote:


    And lets remember Fo, we all live in the same country, we are all citizens of the United Kingdom, yet you and yours would prevent my in-laws from moving near, it is apartheid in Wales, or it would be if it were allowed to succeed.

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  • 59. At 7:10pm on 13 Nov 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    Don't put words into my mouth to save your own ignorance you and your
    party have openly canvassed for welsh jobs for welsh speakers for years
    I am a welsh speaking welshman who wants to work in Wales so why is my
    aspiration for a job in my own country racist and yours not.


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  • 60. At 8:21pm on 13 Nov 2009, FoDafydd wrote:

    Re 59

    Your aspiration as a Welsh speaking Welshman, or even if you were a monoglot English speaker, isn't racist. What is objectionable is your attitude towards foreigners.

    Re 58

    Sorry, Stonemason, but it's your friend gnat who doesn't want to allow your in-laws into the country. But you will never criticize anyone from your side of the argument will you? And that's why you are blind to gnat's comment about Welsh jobs for Welsh people - there is NO talk of the UK there from your fellow Brit nat. So, no jobs for Poles or Romanians or Scots or Irish or English...

    That's why I'm proud to belong to an internationalist party, unlike the Labour Party described here by gnat, or the Tory Party, more than happy to link up with fascist parties in Europe.

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  • 61. At 2:15pm on 14 Nov 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    So now I'm not a racist but I hold objectionable attitudes towards foreigners that's a bit rich comming from a party that in it's 'non-socialist' period openly condoned the daubing of English language road signs,the destruction of television studio's and the persecution of 'foreigners' even likening them to 'foot and mouth' and advocated giving people in holiday homes a 'warm welcome'.




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  • 62. At 3:52pm on 14 Nov 2009, FoDafydd wrote:

    Re 61

    I have to be very careful how I write things, otherwise it won't get past the moderators, but no, I did not say that you are not a racist. You're not denying it then? But then again, how can you - having written what you did?!

    Now, your rather desperate last message:
    So painting signs ir racist??!!!

    That silly comment was made by a businessman who has nothing to do with Plaid. But I know that truth and the facts play very little part in your thinking.

    Holiday homes? Are you serious? If you are, then why not display some courage, and make that ridiculous accusation openly in your own name, and see where that gets you. Three or four neo-con Brit nats on here will agree with you, everybody else will just laugh.

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  • 63. At 10:16am on 16 Nov 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    62.My first reaction was 'not to respond to the buffoon' but the evidence available on the net in support of my statement was compelling.It showed that a plethora of senior Plaid Cymru Officiado's(past and present) sympathised with the arsonists and one even declared 'I believe their motivation is the same as ours' add to that the road sign campaign and holiday homes burning was 'racist' in that it attacked 'the english and all they stood for.
    Try reading.
    http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200102/cmhansrd/vo020507/halltext/20507h05.htm
    As for the sign daubing the WLS was set up by four Plaid Cymru members
    at a Plaid Cymru summer camp (whatever that was?)in Pontardulais they
    under the pretext of 'peaceful protest'damaged BBC studios,offices,
    road signs and caused thousands of pounds of criminal damage.

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  • 64. At 11:39pm on 03 Dec 2009, thenukeguy wrote:

    Very interesting article. I have recently published a blog on the Nuclear industry on Anglesey and would appreciate comments http://thenukeguy.com

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  • 65. At 12:11pm on 20 Feb 2010, Johnson wrote:

    Nuclear reactors are unsafe, dangerous amounts of radioactive wastes produced, and there are no preventive actions to avoid proliferation of nuclear weapons. After considering the pros and cons of nuclear energy, I think the next generation of nuclear power plants should include aneutronic energy, it can be a safe and clean energy source, generating enormous electric power without hazardous wastes.

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