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POLL!

Betsan Powys | 06:28 UK time, Wednesday, 14 October 2009

Now wouldn't it be fascinating if - bang, slap in the middle of the Labour leadership campaign - a poll came out, one that includes a question about attitudes to the candidates in that leadership race.

Wouldn't it be even more fascinating if that poll covered not only voting intentions in the next general election but voting intentions in a forthcoming referendum on law making powers? After all, if you asked the three leadership candidates directly where they stand on that referendum, what would they say? Who'd be lukewarm, who'd be ambivalent, who'd be gung ho?

The very, very good news in a land brimming with blogs but devoid of polls - and therefore, very often, of political context - is that YouGov has established a Welsh panel. That means they have a pool of people who will take part in regular internet polling. The results of their very first Welsh poll will be published in a fortnight's time when the tantalising prospect of regular polling in Wales will be dangled before us.

Doing the dangling? YouGov President Peter Kellner.

Doing the analysing, Richard Wyn Jones from the Wales Governance Centre at Cardiff University and Roger Scully from Aberystwyth University.

Waiting on tenterhooks? Just about every political anorak in Wales.

Off to London on the early train to find out what the Welsh Grand Committee makes of the Welsh Language LCO. My colleague David Cornock is threatening to live tweet the event. Political anoraks rejoice!

Comments

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  • 1. At 08:27am on 14 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    It would be far more fascinating should those on this panel include folk who have NO connection to either the Cymraeg heartlands (Aberystwyth), or Cardiff Bay.

    A few who may be actively antipathetic to any more of the nonsense, and who also have some degree of input to the way questions for these polls are formulated.

    I seriously doubt that such folk would be invited to sit on this panel though.

    For example, should such an invite drop on the mat behind my front door, one of the first things I would demand, upon accepting the invitation, would be to have a question put, with a full description accompanying it, as to the viability of asking for a referendum, not on yet more powers, but on the need to have the whole damned show in the first place.

    I find it abhorrent that, where a referendum IS required to test the continuation of the Assembly/WAG, instead we are being frog marched into being asked should more powers be handed over to the menage in the Bay.

    Powers that were never contemplated by the electorate to be granted by them in the first place.Many of whom were conned into this 'nationalistic' frame of mind, by the use of jingoism based on phony patriotism centred around a Rugby stance, with a few artificial folk festivals thrown in.
    All this in an attempt to corral a totally disparate region into some sort of homogeneous whole, when any fool can see that, area by area, there is little cohesion.



    I cannot accept that the 1997 referendum, with it's totally undemocratic result, should be the base for governing this region, whereas the same that took place in 1979, which resulted in a far more democratic outcome, cannot be re run, without the political interference of Hain and his cronies in the, so called, Welsh labour Party.

    It comes across as a foregone conclusion that the electorate has come to accept whatever emanates from the Bay, whereas, as much of the blogging on this and other web sites shows, all is not well within the acceptance levels of that same electorate.

    Rugby, Flag, and language aside, Wales has, is, and will continue to be, shafted by a bunch of political morons with nothing in their portmanteau except hot air, and the absolute capacity to interfere in the day to day lives of the population, far and away beyond any necessity to so do.

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  • 2. At 08:56am on 14 Oct 2009, John wrote:


    Is this the chattering classes getting too big for their boots I wonder, are they attempting to drive their own agenda through a democratic process, are they trying to shape Welsh politicians into a new "clone" army that sits with a dark agenda, no-matter which party brand is represented.

    Goodbye Welsh non-conformance, greetings the new Welsh aristocracy.

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  • 3. At 10:05am on 14 Oct 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    Excellent stuff - look forward to the polling results.

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  • 4. At 10:10am on 14 Oct 2009, SimonDyda wrote:



    YouGov polls are conducted online, not through the post. As for who will be "on the panel", the whole point behind the project is to create a reliable psephology that reflects actual public opinion, the results of which are then tested against subsequent plebiscites.

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  • 5. At 11:21am on 14 Oct 2009, verymuchso wrote:

    Anoraky or not, this is an important step. Too much of policy about Wales is based on UK-wide data with tiny Welsh samples. More of this dedicated survey work is needed, and not just on public opinion.

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  • 6. At 11:46am on 14 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    This is very good news, we need more of these kinds of developments. Too bad that some - as usual - find conspiracies in all things to do with national Welsh politics.

    And, by the way, this nation of ours is now governed after the wholly democratic 1997 referendum. If you disagree, take it to the courts, or the UN - or anyone who's willing to listen.

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  • 7. At 12:19pm on 14 Oct 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    Betsan
    You report;
    The ... good news ... is that YouGov has established a Welsh panel. ...a pool of people who will take part in regular internet polling.
    Well now!!! yes great news but -
    Doing the analysing, Richard Wyn Jones from the Wales Governance Centre at Cardiff University and Roger Scully from Aberystwyth University.

    Given the Devolved Government's track record producing one sided propoganda, some important questions need answering here.

    1/ Who is paying the bill, and who is asking the questions?

    2/ What is the Welsh Panel,how big, who selects them, on what basis?

    3/ How are members of the panel distributed around Wales.

    4/ Why are Yougov not doing the analysis themselves.

    5/ What access to raw, background, and weighing data, will be available?

    Done properly, without political machinations this sort of polling could be invaluable.
    Yougov have an excellent track record so far.

    However there is a real danger that this project will be discredited, if it is not absolutely clear, that it is a blind and independent survey of Welsh opinion.

    Analysis of these polls needs to be totally independent and unbiased. Choosing two Academics, embroiled in Welsh Politics, as analysts to interpret the results and decide what the findings are - immediately casts doubt on the usefulness of any results from this exercise.

    On the face of what you report Betsan - The mechanism here appears flawed.
    First the public should get raw (perhaps weighed) results.

    No pre release Analysis - its not needed - it is up to Commentators or Academics to pick over the entrails.

    As I've said before here - The first rule of Propaganda is to convince the masses that everyone else agrees with the cause, those who don't are out of step.

    We need to be careful with our democracy.
    Plaid with their vision of independence, their hands on the levers of power - our devolved government with its overriding desire to expand its authority and power - certainly gain no advantage in protecting our interests.

    Incidentally very few, even among political anoraks, seem to be the slightest bit interested in who is to be the next Labour Leader!!

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  • 8. At 12:22pm on 14 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    6....


    And,by the way, this REGION of ours is just as likely to demand a referendum repeat, don't think because the 1997 result went the way of the nationalists, it was the final call.

    You lot moaned and groaned from 1979, when you were convincingly 'hammered', until 1997 when the disinterested populace refrained from engaging, having thrown it all out 12 years previously.

    NO need for courts, or the UN, (what a fatuous couple of remarks they are anyway), all that is needed is a new referendum, which we are just as entitled to demand, as was the 1997 demanded by your moaning lot.

    I would not be so cocky if I were you, as Wilson said, "a week is a long time in politics", and there are MANY weeks ahead of us, yet to come.

    And yes, we do find conspiracies, in virtually every move made by the Assembly.

    You do not because you are either complicit in their motions, or far too stupid to realise you are being shafted by a language obsessed elite, who have no feelings for Wales, or it's people.


    message 5...


    Yes indeed, that is probably so, UK data, it is exactly what you have said, UK wide, or does it escape your notice that Wales, this region, is therefore part and parcel of that same UK?

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  • 9. At 12:26pm on 14 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    message 4....


    I did not say such polls were done via the post, what I said was

    '...if I was invited to sit on the panel, with the invitaion coming by post....'


    I suggest a refresher course in comprehension.

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  • 10. At 12:52pm on 14 Oct 2009, John wrote:


    When Betsan wrote ....

    ..... slap in the middle of the Labour leadership campaign ...... if you asked the three leadership candidates directly where they stand on that referendum, what would they say? Who'd be lukewarm, who'd be ambivalent, who'd be gung ho? .....

    I'm afraid the context could only be construed as an attempt to influence the proceedings. The people of Wales deserve better than manipulation by an unelected Welsh aristocracy, it is little better than gerrymandering.

    Post or reactive moderation for all except the Welsh aristocracy, please!.


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  • 11. At 1:09pm on 14 Oct 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "I'm afraid the context could only be construed as an attempt to influence the proceedings. The people of Wales deserve better than manipulation by an unelected Welsh aristocracy, it is little better than gerrymandering" - from Stoney.

    "However there is a real danger that this project will be discredited, if it is not absolutely clear, that it is a blind and independent survey of Welsh opinion." - from West Wales

    Are YouGov part of the Nationalist conspiracy? There's plenty of political stuff to discuss but surely we all welcome a reputable non-biased organisation conducting regular polling?

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  • 12. At 1:29pm on 14 Oct 2009, SimonDyda wrote:

    @9

    "For example, should such an invite drop on the mat behind my front door"

    Your words. I hope they taste nice. ;)

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  • 13. At 1:43pm on 14 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    12,....


    Not another who takes a few words, presents them out of context, then attempts to make smart alec brownie points from such a move!


    Read the whole message, before trying to be so damned clever.


    "....I seriously doubt that such folk would be invited to sit on this panel though.

    For example, should such an 'invite'( not a request for an opinion) drop on the mat behind my front door, one of the first things I would demand, upon accepting the invitation,(to sit on the panel) would be to have a question put, with a full description accompanying it, as to the viability of asking for a referendum, not on yet more powers, but on the need to have the whole damned show in the first place.....".


    Like I said before,...

    ... take a refresher course in reading and comprehending.

    Or is it another slice of Ysgol Cymraeg going wrong when responding in English on this English blog?

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  • 14. At 2:04pm on 14 Oct 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    Dewi #11

    surely we all welcome a reputable non-biased organisation conducting regular polling?

    Yes of course we do - a feature of Welsh politics presently absent, leaving us open to deception by deliberately biased polls.

    However!!

    We need to be assured it is not just the "Yougov polling network and data collection systems" being used by some third party.

    The whole process must be transparent, properly explained, and totally in the hands of Yougov.
    No involvement by interested parties, or their agents, and be a blind and independent survey of Welsh opinion

    The questions must be clear and unambiguous - the full results published.

    Then if anyone wants to analyze what the results mean - go ahead.

    Betsan's report that its already decided that doing the analysing, are a couple of Academics deep into "devolution politics" must raise doubts. - Why - its totally unnecessary, unless there is a dark motive!! The results should be open - why fiddle - how much involved in the process will these academics be, and who do they answer to.
    It all comes back to the question who is paying

    However - I for one will be fascinated to see what spin differing interests put on the results.

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  • 15. At 2:32pm on 14 Oct 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    11. I recently took a reputable non biased organisation to task over a poll that showed colleagues in a bad light. While sympathising with my complaints they said that if we commissioned them they would do a poll that would show my colleagues case in good light and even suggested who to contact for funding.Pollsters like Lobbyists and Consultants are a
    waste of space and offer no alternative to the little black cross especially when it's cast for a Huw Lewis or a 'No' vote.

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  • 16. At 2:36pm on 14 Oct 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    You can always do your own analysis WW!!. On the matter of who is paying I'll do aome digging - as I understand YouGov's business model they tend to start themselves and then get interested parties to pay for specific questions in specific areas. I don't think that it's restricted to politics - but don't quote me - I'll do some digging....

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  • 17. At 2:50pm on 14 Oct 2009, legendaryavocet wrote:

    Are we supposed to be inspired with confidence knowing that the analysing will be carried out by the same people who are always commissioned by the Assembly? The very same people who tell us that the Welsh public are becoming more and more enthusiastic about the devolution of further law-making and tax-raising powers? The same person who writes endless publications eulogising about devolution, and who sat on the AWC panel at their last public meeting in Cardiff, helping Sir Emyr to pursuade us to go down that slippery slope?

    The results of that poll, like all the others these people have produced, will not be worth the paper it is written on.

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  • 18. At 3:33pm on 14 Oct 2009, verymuchso wrote:

    mapexx #8:
    "Yes indeed, that is probably so, UK data, it is exactly what you have said, UK wide, or does it escape your notice that Wales, this region, is therefore part and parcel of that same UK?"

    Wind your neck in, or go and pick an argument somewhere else. If you want to know the detail of how a region operates, you need to study it in detail. Most survey work is done by London-based outfits on samples that include Wales-based residents in proportion to the UK-wide population - about 5%. If the results are broken down by region you're likely to get conclusions based on a sample so small as to be unrepresentative, say 5k respondents for all of Wales in a 100k respondent survey - and that's a big survey.

    The advantages of studying just Wales (or Scotland, or the North West of England, if that's where you are) are obvious - more representative, and a survey more-focused on Welsh issues, just to begin with.

    Of course, if you believe that Wales is exactly like the South-East of England in all important respects, this is unnecessary. But not many people do. Is that your position?

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  • 19. At 3:41pm on 14 Oct 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    Just a thought -

    If you are going to canvass opinion, it helps if those polled have an idea of the options and arguments.

    I have seen no detailed analysis of whether our devolved Government is worth having.
    Just a few out of a whole list of questions we can discuss, before being asked to take a view;

    1/ Does the Welsh Assembly serve our needs - is it simply a wasteful extra layer of government we can do better without.

    2/ It costs some £390 million a year to run - excluding the extra significant costs and constraints it imposes on local government and the private sector - what are these and are they justified.

    3/ Do we need a different set of Rules, Regulations, and Laws from the rest of the UK, if so why.
    There is no public debate about these issues, - not what "Dragon's Eye" or the "Politic Show" want to discuss.

    So - are these proposed Polls going to deliver answers based on public understanding of the issues.

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  • 20. At 3:54pm on 14 Oct 2009, SimonDyda wrote:

    @13

    "Not another who takes a few words, presents them out of context, then attempts to make smart alec brownie points from such a move!"

    I refer you to #9

    Pot. Kettle. Black.

    :D

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  • 21. At 4:01pm on 14 Oct 2009, John wrote:


    #18 where verymuchso writes .....

    Of course, if you believe that Wales is exactly like the South-East of England in all important respects, this is unnecessary. But not many people do. Is that your position?

    The geography is certainly different, the people are no different, except in the illusionary world of the nationalist.


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  • 22. At 4:17pm on 14 Oct 2009, verymuchso wrote:

    Stonemason #21:
    "The geography is certainly different, the people are no different, except in the illusionary world of the nationalist."

    No relevant socio-economic differences at all? I thought it was rather well-established that in health, education levels, per capita income, quality of housing, types of employment, to say nothing of political culture, there are big differences. And I'm not a nationalist at all, and I'm a blow-in.

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  • 23. At 4:24pm on 14 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    message 20....


    Message 9 was confirmed in message 13.


    You still gain no brownie points old boy.

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  • 24. At 4:47pm on 14 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    message 18...


    With not a nationalistic bone in my body, I indeed do think that Wales is no more or less than the SE of England, for the simple reason the other points you make are invalid.

    There are no regional variations between Wales and the rest of the UK, except for those deliberately invented by certain sections of the populace, and invariably minute sections at that.

    Just because one lives in Wales, the North East or anywhere else in the UK for that matter. does not give one the sort of rights claimed by those certain sectors, such as declaring the region to be so vastly different as to appear almost alien from the rest.

    Take a look where most TV aerial;s are aimed at in the south, the south east, the north east, and along the border between England and Wales, that should tell you enough without going through the rigmarole of taking opinion polls.

    Take a look at the viewing figures for S4C, reach back and discover just how many Cymraeg language publications have come and gone for lack of purchase by the Welsh, especially those who make great issue of being able to speak the language.

    The whole thing is a sham of classic proportions, made far worse by the recent government enactments of legislation favouring those very minute sectors of our society that have been guilty of making the most noise in the public realm, to the absolute detriment of the vast majority, who, by the very disregard for what the nationalist element call for, turn their face away from both Cymraeg language involvement and whatever Cymraeg media output does manage to enter the retail domain.

    Any fool can make up opinion poll questions with a defined slant, in order to obtain the answers looked, and hoped for. That is why I and others castigate the idea of polls being conducted by those with sharply defined connections to those currently occupying those so called Assembly WAG seats of power in Cardiff Bay.

    But to answer one point you scurrilously made, if you don't want contradictory argument, then it is better you do not submit commentary on a blog that is famed for the argumentative attitude of many of it's bloggers. Not least, myself.

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  • 25. At 5:01pm on 14 Oct 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    Verymuchso #22

    in health, education levels, per capita income, quality of housing, types of employment,to say nothing of political culture, there are big differences

    I'll agree with that!

    A question - should our devolved Government and "political culture" carry any blame.

    In the main the issues you highlight are covered by devolved powers.
    The Barnett Formula is biased in Wales favour because of our problems, and the EU has given Millions to help sort out our infrastructure.
    So shortage of money doesn't seem to be the main player!!

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  • 26. At 5:01pm on 14 Oct 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "There are no regional variations between Wales and the rest of the UK"

    There are piles of variations in wealth, health, life expectancy etc etc.

    And Map - just for once leave your language obsession out of it. It just ain't relevant to a topic on getting regular polls of voters' intentions.

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  • 27. At 5:17pm on 14 Oct 2009, John wrote:

    #22

    verymuchso

    I cannot redact the label "nationalist", I can however apologise.

    My statement The geography is certainly different, the people are no different.

    A regional comparison will throw up differences between Wales and the South East, as would a comparison between the North East and South East. However, compare the unemployed of Neath with the unemployed of Gravesend and there is little measurable difference, compare the general practitioners of Sunderland with Swansea with Margate and a very similar level of prosperity will be observed.

    What health issues differences are discernible between the Rhondda and a similar coal mining area of the North East or Scottish for that matter, few differences though similar mortality for similar industrial reasons.

    So you see, I find the same people wherever I look in the UK, in the context of society I am not sure what "exactly like the South-East" means.

    Rather than look for differences I prefer to search for similarities. In Wales much is made of differences by the Nationalist camp, similarities are politically important to the United Kingdom.

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  • 28. At 5:20pm on 14 Oct 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    Dewi #26
    leave your language obsession out of it. It just ain't relevant to a topic on getting regular polls of voters' intentions.

    Quite right

    Unless - Membership of the Welsh Panel is open only to those who speak Welsh. - Surely that's not credible.

    However - for reliable results there must be weighing to exclude potential bias in that area.
    Say 20% Welsh speakers, 80% monoglot English!!!!

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  • 29. At 5:48pm on 14 Oct 2009, grumpy-white-rabbit wrote:


    "wouldn't it be fascinating if - bang, slap in the middle of the Labour leadership campaign"


    Well I think it will be fascinating just before a referendum, particularly when Plaid picks up the tab, no doubt it would provide a suitably biased question and a preferred list of participants, or has the list been primed already?

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  • 30. At 6:18pm on 14 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 28

    Are you joining the ranks of the paranoid, West-Wales? Why do you even raise the possibility?

    And why does the British nationalist element always seem to imply that all Welsh speakers and all non-Welsh speakers share exactly the same opinions on everything as distinct groups?

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  • 31. At 7:49pm on 14 Oct 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    There maybe a leadership contest but I fail to recognise that it is anything to do with the Labour party I used to vote for.

    It has made an alliance to stay in power whereby they get all the credit and Labour gets the blame. Just listen to the Archbishop giving Labour a lambasting at public meetings. None of them dare contradict him for fear of upsetting one of the main advocates of devolution.

    So they desperately hang onto their seats at the expense of the Party that people used to vote for.

    Perhas sombody should complain under the Trades Description Act to prevent voters from being misled into thinking that they have anything to do with what many consider to be traditional Labour values

    We have devolution on a wave of apathy, we are now going to be asked if we want to give more powers to this Assembly.

    The question must be asked why are we not going to be given the chance to vote to get rid of it. Is it because people would vote to do just that.

    I think we should have a referendum on whether we want an independant Wales.

    That way people can make an informed concious deccision rather than arrive in that situation by deception

    I am not saying we should turn the clock but but an unnessary third layer of government only serves itself.

    Is it for the benefit of this region, I am afraid my perception of Wales as a country is dissappearing as only causes immense division, or is it so 'partyless' politans can stay in a job.

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  • 32. At 9:04pm on 14 Oct 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "Say 20% Welsh speakers, 80% monoglot English!!!!"

    Yes - I'm sure that's what the panel will be - what's the problem?

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  • 33. At 9:55pm on 14 Oct 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    Dewi #32
    OK joke over,
    More seriously;

    Last week Brown announced selling off 16 billion of National Assets.
    That compares to the August increase in the total UK dept of 16.1 Billion.

    We are also printing some 150 billion in quantitative easing.

    Things don't seem too bad at the moment because of the cushion of Government borrowing - but it all has to be paid back - with interest!!!

    UK government is over complex, and effectively we are pouring money down the drain - or at least into unnecessary spending.

    There is no way current levels of spending can continue, the many levels of government, spending on nonsense projects, masses of civil servants, and political nonentities is going to have to be trimmed.

    There has to be massive restructuring.

    For Wales the easiest, perhaps only, way of dealing with the problem is to scrap the Assembly.
    Lets grasp the nettle and get it over with!!!


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  • 34. At 9:59pm on 14 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    message 26...


    This is one of those little spats often thrown up whenever a relevent point ios made that the nats don't agree with.

    You my friend cannot see the wood for the trees, the whole thing is based on that one and only difference,... LANGUAGE.


    Therefore I am entitl;ed top be obsessed with it. Now ytou may think it is all a matter of detail, yes in many cases it is, but behind the whole business is that fundamental diversion from reality, the Language.

    As I, and others. have stated many times before, without that weapon to use as a cudgel, there would be no argument on this or any other blog or forum.

    Why do you think thjse opinion polls are specified for Wales against similar polls being taken in other regions, as Stoeny has laid put before you, taking like for like you would be hard put to discern any major difference between region and region. Add the poisoned chalice of a different, and to most, an alien language, and you get what we have here in Wales.

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  • 35. At 10:20pm on 14 Oct 2009, Cardiffian2008 wrote:



    "all Welsh speakers and all non-Welsh speakers share exactly the same opinions on everything as distinct groups?"

    maybe not ... But why not take the opinion of a representative sample of the welsh population just to be safe... After all it's what any reputable research organisation would do.

    No doubt the concepts of confounding factors and bias are not familiar to anybody on the WAG payroll

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  • 36. At 10:26pm on 14 Oct 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    Correction to my #33

    Sorry my comment OK joke over,
    Should read
    OK - To other less controversial issues

    The language legislation is no joke.
    Probably the most divisive issue in Welsh Politics.

    Even this correction will no doubt be subject to adverse comments.

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  • 37. At 11:05pm on 14 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 36

    "The language legislation is no joke.
    Probably the most divisive issue in Welsh Politics."

    - quite honestly that is not my perception or experience. That's why the vehemence expressed against the language by a few is so surprising, and sometimes quite frightening.

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  • 38. At 11:37pm on 14 Oct 2009, Notonationalism wrote:

    Great - another pro-further powers poll from Richard Wyn Jones and Roger Scully. What made 'You Gov' approach the propaganda wing of the Welsh Assembly, the Institute of Welsh Affairs, for this poll? As others have stated, we need to know who has commissioned it. Could it be that these men were recommended by the Assembly establishment?

    Personally, I'm surprised and disappointed that Peter Kellner has enmeshed himself in this.

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  • 39. At 11:57pm on 14 Oct 2009, Trechu wrote:

    Great to see the "brats" (britnats) getting so upset. Their efforts to "shoot the messenger" at this early stage means they are scared stiff of the likely results.

    I expect the yes vote lead to be well into double figures especially with the likely Tory victory (hopefully resulting in a hung parliament) at the next election.

    Nothing like the spectre of a Tory government to give devolution a good shot in the arm, especially given their new fascist friends in Europe!

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  • 40. At 00:59am on 15 Oct 2009, legendaryavocet wrote:

    Never mind dodgy polls, Trechu, just bring on the referendum! (with multi choice questions on the ballot paper, of course). That would be the democratic option!

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  • 41. At 09:22am on 15 Oct 2009, John wrote:


    #26 just for Dewi.

    Where you wrote .....

    There are piles of variations in ....., health, ..... .

    Reported this morning in the Times, the highest percentage of weak hospital services is in the South East.

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  • 42. At 09:41am on 15 Oct 2009, Lyn David Thomas wrote:

    I see the conspiracy theorists are out in force again, paraiding their paranoia for all to see. A respected polling organisation announces that it will be polling in Wales - all good news. What is the reaction? Its going to be rigged, stuffed with handpicked people who can be relied on to give the answer that the Welsh Elite (what ever that is) want... what next a copy of the potocols of the elders of Gwynedd? Polling organisations would lose any credibility if they fixed the results, likewise academics would be putting there jobs on the line if they alowed their personal biases to come into this. Can our conspiracy nuts just for once stand back and look at what they are saying.

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  • 43. At 09:59am on 15 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 42

    Yes, it's funny isn't it... only, it isn't really. On the one hand, it's Montana in 2009, on the other it's Germany in the 1930's with whispers of devilish minorities plotting away. It sounds familiar, doesn't it?

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  • 44. At 10:39am on 15 Oct 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    Lyn #42
    Polling firms routinely take work from anyone willing to pay.
    Nothing wrong with that - they will also happily bias the questions to elicit a particular response.

    Remember this is the One Wales Government we are dealing with - track record not good.
    They have a serious current agenda to swing public opinion, and are spending millions on the project.
    Opinion polls can be useful tools in that process.

    Any opinion poll set, monitored, and analysed, by Academics deeply involved in the Devolution mission - instead of being organised independently by the polling company has got to be questioned.

    So to ask for clarification that the process is blind and independent is perfectly valid.

    I welcome properly set and published opinion polls in Wales - there is a serious lack of credible data.

    If this polling project is to produce credible data - there must not be any controlling involvement by the OWG and "The Institute of Welsh Affairs".

    This is not paranoia - this is about credibility not the strong suit of anything to do with the Assembly.

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  • 45. At 10:43am on 15 Oct 2009, John wrote:


    Did you pair, #42 and #43 actually read what Betsan wrote ....

    Now wouldn't it be fascinating if - bang, slap in the middle of the Labour leadership campaign - a poll came out, one that includes a question about attitudes to the candidates in that leadership race.


    Betsan, I believe, is mischief making, "agent provocateur" if you wish, or could she be testing the water?

    If any organisation was able to do what Betsan suggests then democracy, fragile as it is, would be lost to the chattering classes.

    It would be the 30 January 1649 once again, except it would be democracy loosing its head to the new aristocracy.

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  • 46. At 11:42am on 15 Oct 2009, lordBeddGelert wrote:

    Language problems north of the border..

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/8306582.stm

    I love the vision of confused Polish immigrant bus drivers needing the services of a translator..

    Of course that sort of thing would never happen in Wales..

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  • 47. At 11:48am on 15 Oct 2009, verymuchso wrote:

    West-Wales #44:
    "I welcome properly set and published opinion polls in Wales - there is a serious lack of credible data.

    If this polling project is to produce credible data - there must not be any controlling involvement by the OWG and "The Institute of Welsh Affairs"."

    I agree with the first sentence entirely. I know it's not done on these blogs to let the facts get in the way of good argument, but from the report it doesn't seem that the IWA is involved. I don't know what OWG stands for, so can't comment on that.

    On mapexx's point, the notion that the language issue is the core of the Welsh policy debate can only be sustained if you ignore decades of political debate. That there are similarities between Welsh socio-economic concerns and those in other regions of the UK (most notably, the North-East of England)is obvious, but all that means is that we should learn from one another, not that we can all get thrown into a central mixer and take whatever comes.

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  • 48. At 2:02pm on 15 Oct 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    verymuchso #47

    Apologies - trying to do two things at once!

    OWG acronym for "One Wales Government" the coalition between Plaid & Labour.

    "The Institute of Welsh Affairs"
    Was in error - should have read
    "the Wales Governance Centre"

    Based at the University of Cardiff is the Assemblies centre for scholarly research on legal and political matters relating to the National Assembly for Wales, especialy the political, legal and public policy significance of the Government of Wales Act 2006.

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  • 49. At 2:13pm on 15 Oct 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    Additional to #48

    The "Welsh Governance Centre" is currently is engaged in a collaborative venture with the "Institute of Welsh Affairs" exploring the “Progressive Consensus”

    Not sure what exploring the “Progressive Consensus” means.
    Suggests work to develop a progression toward some required "public" consensus!!!

    Perhaps we shouldn't ask - gets scary!!!

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  • 50. At 2:25pm on 15 Oct 2009, John wrote:


    Where "verymuchso" writes at #47 .....


    On mapexx's point, the notion that the language issue is the core of the Welsh policy debate can only be sustained if you ignore decades of political debate.

    The argument offered by "verymuchso" is fundamentally flawed because it shifts debate from the current climate to the average debate of previous decades. mapexx has valid argument as currently language is fundamental to Welsh political debate, not because the Welsh language is important, but because of its use by political interests to drive through unwelcome social engineering and inappropriate legislation to the detriment of Welsh society.

    Today the "Welsh Language Society" is meeting the Welsh Secretary to discuss the Welsh language LCO, Menna Machreth (Chair of the Welsh Language Society) is on record as saying .....

    .... only companies and bodies receiving over £400,000 of public money will be asked to provide Welsh language services. This threshold is far too high and should be deleted. (from the Welsh Language LCO).


    This "Welsh Language Society" is adamant that all businesses and organisations should provide a full Welsh language service, in response to this political organisation mapexx is therefore topical and valid.

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  • 51. At 3:34pm on 15 Oct 2009, verymuchso wrote:

    West Wales #49:
    OK, 'progressive consensus' I've heard of, it means Labour seeking to get ideas and support from beyond traditional groups, so in Wales it was used by Rhodri Morgan to refer to the OWG (see, I've learned something today) after May 2007. I don't think it necessarily means the WGC is supporting it - it looks likes its job to try to work out what it means. As to whether the academics you refer to are personally that way inclined, I couldn't say.

    Stonemason #50:
    "language is fundamental to Welsh political debate, not because the Welsh language is important, but because of its use by political interests to drive through unwelcome social engineering and inappropriate legislation to the detriment of Welsh society"

    I think we'll just have to agree to differ about this. I agree they make a lot of noise, and some of what they want is potty, but there are much bigger priorities in WAG and the Assembly - like how to solve Wales's skills gap - that Welsh language is irrelevant to. Just my opinion, like.

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  • 52. At 4:04pm on 15 Oct 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    43. We do have a devilish minority plotting away, they're plotting to
    get devolution through without a mandate from the people.

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  • 53. At 4:28pm on 15 Oct 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "We do have a devilish minority plotting away, they're plotting to
    get devolution through without a mandate from the people."

    Precisely wrong - that's what the current system of LCOs does - let's have a referendum !!

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  • 54. At 5:10pm on 15 Oct 2009, John wrote:


    It is unfortunate when a responder selects the lesser point, a subordinate position.

    At #50 the final paragraph was the paramount proposition that vindicated mapexx in his approach to Welsh political discussions.

    If mapexx is denied his freedom of expression, or if his opinions are submerged by opposition noise so that discussion is denied, then other freedoms will eventually be denied.

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  • 55. At 5:21pm on 15 Oct 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    Dewi #53
    plotting to get devolution through without a mandate from the people."

    Precisely wrong - that's what the current system of LCOs does - let's have a referendum !!


    agreed - it "is" the 2006 Act that has pushed devolution forward without a mandate.

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  • 56. At 7:08pm on 15 Oct 2009, grumpy-white-rabbit wrote:


    I read this today .....

    "To understand this puzzle you need to look at "Wales" recent history. In the last thirty years, "Wales" has changed drastically from a working "country" with decent wages, into a dying "country" with nothing but the dole, the sick and the minimum wage. Since the pits closed in the 80's, "Wales" has become a "country" of call centres surrounded by boarded up shops and factories.

    "Wales's" industrial collapse has lead to widespread poverty, low paid jobs and a reliance on the state."


    ..... familiar ?

    It was a story about Barnsley, replace Wales with Barnsley and country with town for the original text.


    The moral of the storey, Stoney is right when he said nothings different except the place names, except through the eyes of "Nutty Nats".


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  • 57. At 7:50pm on 15 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 56

    You could find a similar place in France as well, I'm sure. So, what's the difference then?

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  • 58. At 8:05pm on 15 Oct 2009, grumpy-white-rabbit wrote:


    Dafy, France is not Great Britain, duh.

    You never have anything constructive to say to anyone other than your Nutty Nat Troll friends, so waltz off to your local and avoid my comments.

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  • 59. At 8:24pm on 15 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 58

    No answer, what a surprise. And Wales is not England, duh - so perhaps you'd like to engage your brain and try again...

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  • 60. At 10:16pm on 15 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    57.....

    Have you ever been to France. I would ask further, have you ever been further than the end of your heol?

    There are a few who write to this, and other blogs, who have been to France, one for sure owns a house there, and I can assure you, there is none of this regional assembly tripe occuring over there, unless you try to insist that their regional assemblies are the same as this load of rubbish we have hanging over us.... well, in case you are ignorant, which of course you certainly seem to be, or you would not have asked such a stupid question, their regional assemblies are not the same.

    Nor do they have the same problems that this local Assembly has generated, here in Wales.

    They have problems, but invariably the exact same ones as occur all over the UK, mainly to do with inner city deprivations, suffered by immigrant populations.

    Few of which actually image any I have heard of here in this region...Wales.

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  • 61. At 11:05pm on 15 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 60

    Yep, he's misunderstood the point completely once again. So, once more, a meaningless rant. I like France actually, they have some intelligent people there...

    Did I hear someone say 'read and comprehend' at some point?

    Who on earth was talking about French regional assemblies?

    It's all very simple really - though maybe not for ostriches - France, a nation; England, a nation; Wales, a nation.

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  • 62. At 08:42am on 16 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    message 61,...


    You attacked another for his comparisons between one part of the UK and another. Thateffecitively referrred to the Assembly.

    Then you make issue of France and England being a nations, they certainly are, under any and all descriptions accepted and tolerated by the internatiobnal community. Wales does not match any of the parameters that make a nation. It is no matter how you dream and yearn for it to be so.


    You may like France, but have you ever been beyond the end of your heol?

    Strange you did not answer that question.

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  • 63. At 09:37am on 16 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 62

    No you still don't understand the point - Burnley, Lancashire unlike Wales is not an historic nation.

    I've only been to France 3 times, I'm afraid. But there aren't many European countries left that I haven't visited, and I've also been on most continents. Why? Is it a competition?

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  • 64. At 09:39am on 16 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 62 again...

    There was a time you wouldn't even accept that England was a nation; so there's some progress.

    Now if only we could get rid of that inferiority complex... if, indeed, you are Welsh of course.

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  • 65. At 09:56am on 16 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    63....


    From your usual input I would estimate your visitation across continents is akin to the casual vacationing visitor to the Costa Brava or Benidorm. Sit in the sun, drink your Sangria, and ignore the local environment, because it is, to you, like the rest of the UK, which you obviously despise for not being Welsh, foreign territory.

    The 'competion' element comes from your lack of understanding that Wales is not the only spot on earth, nor is it ever likely to become what you, again, obviously pine for, a separated nation state, even if under the terms of EU integration.In fact under EU terms it would become 'officailly' exactly what is presently is being argued about, just a region.

    As for your silly comment that Burnley is not a historic nation, what has that to do with the point made by the other writer, which was one of comparison between commentary on that town, and a transfer of the rhetoric referred to, onto Wales as a region with anmost identical parameters of deprivation etc.

    I am afraid it is yourself that lacks comprehension.

    You have the very unfortuinmte mental drawback of not being able to understand implied, 'between the lines' import, and opt for the very simplistic 'as you read it on the page'.

    This is why you constantly get castigated by myself and others.

    If you took a few minutes to expand your thought process into the meaning of what poeple write, instead of firing from the hip, as soon as you read what comes before you, you may then become, arguably, capable of a more full and rational understanding of what is being said.

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  • 66. At 11:44am on 16 Oct 2009, penddu wrote:

    64 He is not Welsh, but is a Welsh resident and voter and has therefore a opinion - but as he was born in Manchester and bred in Birkenhead IIRC, his opinions reflect his upbringing and are not at all typical of the average Welshman.

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  • 67. At 12:24pm on 16 Oct 2009, Cilmyn wrote:

    65 - Wales is not regarded as a region within the Eu - it is in fact considered a country. If you do not believe me then look it up. You are wron when you claim that under present EU regulations that Wales would be

    ..."In fact under EU terms it would become 'officailly' exactly what is presently is being argued about, just a region."

    Nope. Sorry. Wrong. As in so many other matters.

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  • 68. At 12:26pm on 16 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    message 66...


    I expect you will make that same statement about David lloyd George, famed Welsh statesman, ex prime Minister of Bt Britain, and held up as a constant Great man of Wales.

    The reason I make that comment is, because he too was born in Manchester, like myself to Welsh parents, and in fact within a half a mile of the hospital I was born in. At least that is where his family were living at the time he was born.

    It is possible he was born in the same hospital, but I cannot be sure about that. as I have not managed to locate his exact site of birth.

    Anyway, before making any response, perhaps you will let me know your take on the 'nationality' (status of Wales not inplied in that word) of David Ll.George.

    Also, I moved to Birkenhead when I was 19 yrs of age, and transferring apprenticeship from a closing down firm to one that offered to pick up my indentures. So I was hardly 'bred' in that borough.

    As for my 'Welshness' I have lived here in the SE of Wales since 1974 which is far more time than I have ever spent residing eslewhere on the planet. Nearly 40yrs.

    Possibly for longer than a few of you lot have been alive.

    Irrespective of the time I have lived here, I am just as entitled to comment on the region in which I live as a centenarian who has never left his home village. Now you may not like that, but that is fact of life.

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  • 69. At 12:26pm on 16 Oct 2009, John wrote:


    penddu by writing at #66 that mapexx is not Welsh because he was born in Manchester and bred in Birkenhead, therefore his opinions reflect his upbringing and are not at all typical of the average Welshman, is perplexing by its lack of logic.


    It would be intriguing if you were able to describe an average Welshman, or woman, but my guess your only intention was to insult. The Insult is of course the "NATS" preferred response when lucid argument is beyond their comprehension.


    A point to remember, we are all citizens of the United Kingdom, no other region of our country issues passports.


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  • 70. At 12:30pm on 16 Oct 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    Sorry Map but remind me why England is a nation and Wales not. As far as I remember England wasn't united for long until the Norman conquest. What's your definition?

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  • 71. At 1:28pm on 16 Oct 2009, Cilmyn wrote:

    69 - you say "we are all citizens of the United Kingdom"- no we ain't.
    You, mappexx and the rest of the British Nationalists who post here are not citizens of the UK. The UK has no citizens - at all.
    The word you should be employing there is subject (as in subject of the Anglo-German Monarch)

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  • 72. At 1:49pm on 16 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 69

    Strange, Stonemason, that you seem so upset about this. If your anger is real, then it is even stranger that you haven't at any time reprimanded mapexx for doubting my Welshness, with his not implied but stated opinion that as an Englishman my opinio wouldn't have much place on this blog.

    Not another example of your selectiveness is it...?

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  • 73. At 1:52pm on 16 Oct 2009, John wrote:


    #71 then its all bad news for you citizen Cilmyn.

    If the prime minister refers to you and I and mapexx and everyone else as citizens, then by convention, by the constitution we are citizens.

    Get used to it, citizen.


    Mapexx, there is a new observer on the block ...

    http://skomer-vole.blogspot.com/

    ... more bad news for the economy.

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  • 74. At 1:56pm on 16 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    messages 70 & 71....


    England is a nation?... debatable!

    Wales is NOT a nation?.... not debatable!


    As Wales is but a region of the conjoined UK, it is not acceptable as a nation under any internationally agreed terms that define such.

    On the other hand, England, due to it's overall control, and massive population, is acceptable under those same terms as the majority region of the UK, in fact it IS the United KINGDOM as far as those mentioned terms are concerned, and is recognised as the 'nation' by all exotic states. Which of course includes the United Nations and the EU..

    By the same terms Wales is neither a nation, nor is it recognised by that same United Nations as other than a region of the UK.

    Beyond international recognition, it also cannot be stated to be a nation because the parameters for such a status are not met in any of the
    frameworks applicable to such an entity.


    I suppose being absolutely pedantic, one can say we are not 'citizens' but 'subjects', but that is playing with words, for the sake of making an argument.

    But once again in your pedantry you are making a clown of yourself, the meaning of the word 'citizen' is a person who resides, or belongs to a 'city'. Not necessarily a state.
    And considering the bulk of the concentrated population actually resides in the major and minor cities of the UK, I would therefore be just as pedantic as you, and state the bulk of the people of the UK ARE therefore 'citizens'. As well as being subjected to the Monarchy.

    Effectively, due to the structure of our total community, I regard 'citizen' and 'subject' to be interchangeable, to all intents and purposes.

    Even the most senior of politicians freely utilise the two on a comparable, and interchangable basis

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  • 75. At 2:07pm on 16 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    me3ssage 72....


    Strange fi fi, that you only put up your query to Stoney, by using my message about your locale and supposed 'nationality' but without putting up the reason why I made such a statement.

    How about doing the right thing and making reference as to why I made that statement.

    But no, it is a case of another time being asked to answer something, and failing, miserably as usual, to so do.

    You have a liking for slipping in such comments from time to time, but expect them to be answered without reference back.

    Stoney, and most of the rest of us, are not as green in the eye as you attempt to make us out to be,.

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  • 76. At 2:08pm on 16 Oct 2009, John wrote:


    FiDafydd, your #72 I have written on this particular subject before.

    I do not give a fig how you or anyone else wishes to impart their domicile description, the fact is you are what you wish to be, whether a description would be legally acceptable (Jedi Knight for example) is another matter.

    The expression "his opinions reflect his upbringing and are not at all typical of the average Welshman" was by design an insult.

    There was a request to penddu for clarification, no response.

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  • 77. At 2:23pm on 16 Oct 2009, penddu wrote:

    68,69 Please read again my comments at 66 and you will see that I was first answering an earlier question - no insults intended - and I was making the point that (for all of Mapexx's faults) he is entitled to his opinions, but that these are not representative of the majority of the Welsh population.

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  • 78. At 2:52pm on 16 Oct 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "On the other hand, England, due to it's overall control, and massive population, is acceptable under those same terms as the majority region of the UK, in fact it IS the United KINGDOM as far as those mentioned terms are concerned, and is recognised as the 'nation' by all exotic states. Which of course includes the United Nations and the EU.."

    Neither the UN or the EU recognise England if that's what you are trying to say. Try and stop making things up and give me your definition of what defines a nation.

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  • 79. At 3:26pm on 16 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 74

    Strange, incomprehensible, illogical nonsense. Today alone you have used your own version of the English language to state categorically that England is a nation, then in your next message to say that this, in fact, is debatable, only then to proceed to pontificate that England is indeed a nation because it is, more or less, the UK!!!!! That's all very clear then...

    Re 75

    I'll remind you why you were debating my nationality, it was when you were caught out spouting nonsense about Welsh grammar, a matter about which you know nothing.

    Re 76

    Still being selective then Stonemason. I, too, can't see why you attacked penddu here.

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  • 80. At 3:28pm on 16 Oct 2009, Cilmyn wrote:

    Rewrite history and definitions all you like - the definition that counts here is the legal one - and Wales according to the Uk Government is a nation and a country (NOT a nation-state and not a sovreign nation - BUT undoubtedly a nation).

    And like it or not stoned youe ARE a subject, regardless of what any politician tells you. Get wise - don't listen to the lies of politicians - and certainly not Prime Ministers, after all a particularly bad one a few years ago apparently said that there was no such thing as society - honest!

    So no - you most certainly are a subject and not by any definition a citizen. Sorry.

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  • 81. At 4:05pm on 16 Oct 2009, John wrote:



    It is recorded in Hansard, "citizen Cilmyn".

    FYI....

    Citizens' Convention (Accountability and Ethics) Bill 2008-09

    A Bill to set up a Citizens' Convention for the purposes of establishing minimum standards of ethics for Members of Parliament and for promoting the involvement of citizens in political decision making; and for connected purposes.

    Get it, Citizens, the Bill has not been written to invite people from other countries to participate in the governance of the United Kingdonm, the logic is simple.....

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  • 82. At 4:38pm on 16 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    message 78...


    1, A nation is a sovereign state recognised by international treaty.

    2. A nation is a large tract of bounded land, in which ALL of it's population shares a common bond either by culture or language or both, (neither of which applies to Wales, unless it is in common with the rest of the UK).
    Ethnic minorities, that adopt and adapt to that common bond included, but excluding those that fail to either, learn the common language (which in this case is English) or fail to change their pre immigration cultural habits also to match the new locality in which they have placed themselves. Again a scenario that does not apply to Wales, where the language and minuscule amount of old culture has been, over centuries, ably abetted by the Welsh themselves, gradually and almost terminally eradicated.

    3. As in the case of American native tribes, or Australian Aborigines, a 'nation' refers to the collective. Such claim no regional attachment to bounded lands, taking into their belief that the land on which they live and travel is owned by no one, hence they become a 'nation' for the purposes of defining their ethnicity. Again parameters that do NOT apply to Wales, or the Welsh.

    As it is now almost impossible to define the Welsh under any of the terms I have mentioned, other than they live in this region, and are composed of many ethnic backgrounds, with no discernable differences between any of those ethnic origins.
    Wales is therefore in all terms, physical, ethnic, political, demographic and etymological, unable to be descrobed as a 'nation'.
    With the exception of a minority, most of whom are struggling to hold on to an antique language that has no value outside of Wales, and even then only to a stubborn few, who see that because it is possible to define the geographical attributes as bounded more definitively than elsewhere in the UK, they think the place and people must be treated as something extraordinary and special in comparison to the rest of the population of the UK.

    They/we are not so, and I believe it to be a insult to our neigbours to make such a claim. Even more so, when we consider that on the political front we are being 2/3rds subsidised by those same people, of whom, certain persons are so scathing in attitude.

    A nation needs a mentally adult population, which most of those who make such a big thing out of their claims for nationhood, patenetly demonstrate we have a long way to go along that route.

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  • 83. At 7:46pm on 16 Oct 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    OK Map - how does that apply to England?

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  • 84. At 10:18pm on 16 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    message 82....



    answers in the oprder I laid out above.


    1: It complies with the terms of international recognition.

    2: It is a very much larger land than Wales, which is but a region of the whole, and it's boundaries are internationally recognised, including Wales as an integral region thereof.

    3: It's thenicity is to all intents and opurposes, along with it's langauge pretty well universall across the whole state. Unlike Wales, which shares that ethnicity, and for the vast bulk of Wales' population, a shared language. Which is English.


    Efecetively England fulfils te parameters of all, whereas Wales does not, unless coupled intimately to England.

    I cannot expand further on this, so if you wish to seek out any more,then go look it up yourself.

    I suggest:-

    The Oxford English Dictionary,

    Websters Dictionary,

    The Encyclopeaedia Brittanica.

    Wiki online encyclopeadia.... and any other source you care to access.

    Try you MP, maybe even your AM, that is if he/she is intelligent enough to step away from the nationalistic endeavour of separating Wales from the UK that is.

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  • 85. At 10:57pm on 16 Oct 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    1. No it Don't.
    2. Are you saying Wales is part of England? That's the only way that makes any sense.
    3. Me, I'm not into ethnic stuff - but if you are talking about language we have one.

    Try for coherence and logic Mapexx - it's cool...

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  • 86. At 11:14pm on 16 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 84

    Absolutely extraordinary! Where to start??!!

    How about:

    "It is a very much larger land than Wales, which is but a region of the whole, and it's boundaries are internationally recognised, including Wales as an integral region thereof."

    - Now that I've stopped laughing, I'll proceed. Perhaps you can enlighten us about just how large you have to be?!!

    And then perhaps you could tell us where exactly England's boundaries are 'internationally recognised' - or if you can't say where, then at least how - and Wales' boundaries are not?

    And your last sentence clearly states than in your opinion Wales is a part of England - so we're all English now! Perhaps you should tell the good people of Cwmbran!!!!!

    I will accept your silence as an admission that even you don't believe your own nonsense.


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  • 87. At 09:26am on 18 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 88. At 10:40pm on 18 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 87

    I've been away, did this comment appear? I would have liked to have seen it.

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  • 89. At 07:46am on 19 Oct 2009, penddu wrote:

    88 Dont waste your time arguing with him - he can not accept the reality and nothing you will say can change him.

    Wales is a historic nation - FACT
    Wales is a constituent Country of the UK - FACT
    Wales is not a sovereign nation recognised by the UN - FACT

    Mapexx's attempts to twist and turn and ignore these facts just expose him as opinionated, bigotted and misinformed. Best to ignore him.

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  • 90. At 08:09am on 19 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    88....


    I too would have liked to have seen the message displayed, but that very nationalistic sympathising moderator must have been on duty, as well as his normal form, as usual, so it did not appear.

    I have complained, as it was in keeping with, and answering yours and other messages.

    But there you have it, your messages with their scurrilous and insulting comments are allowed in response to my own, but whenever mine respond, and in the case of 87, not even anywhere as near as scurrilous as 88, it gets binned.

    So I was not silent, but cannot be bothered to repeat myself, as it is also likely to be binned.

    I will say this though, whenever you read anything I write that gives you a complete answer to your, or others, comments, and which cannot be denied constructively, or with rational argument, you go off in to one of your hysterical fits of laughter, and throw silly and inane remarks in your feeble response. So maybe when I then respond with further damaging commentary, your Cymraeg pal in the BBC moderation team also takes a hissy fit and puts the brakes on.

    So be it. Not that I am at all in favour, but it seems the Tories have stated they will be tackling the BBC, if and when they get into power, maybe some of these part time censors will be getting their come uppance if the Tories do as they are saying they will do.

    In the interests of free speech, maybe not before time.

    I find it laughable that things we are trashed for on this and other blogs, the BBC, on other outlets give free rein to.

    Some peculiar sort of balance in practice by the BBC..

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  • 91. At 11:58am on 19 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 90

    If you had just attempted to give straight answers to my straight questions in 86, then maybe the mods. wouldn't have objected. Perhaps you couldn't answer them, and tried insults instead - I don't know; as I said I would liked to have seen what you wrote.

    Or perhaps that you've now seen sense, and accept that the Welsh are a nation, and we're really not English at all...

    It is funny though, because every time you've reported me to the mods successfully, you were more than happy to say that the mods were quite capable of making sensible decisions. Now it's different! Now it seems the paranoia has spread to having a nationalist mole amongst them. Amazing!!

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  • 92. At 1:18pm on 19 Oct 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "not even anywhere as near as scurrilous as 88"
    Now I'm really confused. How on earth is:
    "I've been away, did this comment appear? I would have liked to have seen it.".....remotely scurrilous?

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  • 93. At 10:20pm on 19 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    message 91....


    I gave answers. With nothing that could be seen as breaking house rules.

    I do try to be ultra careful of my message contents, but I am not satisfied the message was treated appropriately by whichever moderator binned it. Since they no longer have the decency to inform by e mail why they have done so, I am not then able to resubmit after modifying to their acceptance.
    If you are so concerned with the missing message, why not ask the mods to replace it?

    message 92...

    If you wish to butt in, then at least have the common sense to follow the ongoing line of messages. Just throwing out an unqualified question, such as yours, gives one the impression you are not quite with us.

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  • 94. At 11:00pm on 19 Oct 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "If you wish to butt in"
    What - into your private blog!!
    "I do try to be ultra careful of my message contents" - Give me strength!
    And:
    "If you wish to butt in, then at least have the common sense to follow the ongoing line of messages. Just throwing out an unqualified question, such as yours, gives one the impression you are not quite with us."
    I followed it to:
    "I've been away, did this comment appear? I would have liked to have seen it."
    So Map - cut your bigoted crap will you?

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  • 95. At 1:18pm on 20 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    Message 94...

    I recommend you try learning the meaning of English words.


    I suggest you commence with the word 'bigot'.


    Or does your Ysgol education tolerate non comprehension?

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  • 96. At 2:06pm on 20 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 95

    ...you don't object to crap?

    But why do you always insist that people aren't allowed to join in a debate?

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  • 97. At 2:23pm on 20 Oct 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "Or does your Ysgol education tolerate non comprehension?"

    I undesrstand the word "bigot" and the above sentence makes my point with wonderful precision.

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  • 98. At 12:24pm on 21 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    message 97.....


    Oh! but I do object to it, every time you send in a message I object to it.


    Message 98...


    The following from the OCD....


    Bigot 1: a hypocrite.
    Bigot 2:a superstitious person.
    Bigot 3: A religious diogmatist.



    1: I certainly am not. I state my case and stand by it.

    The only hypoctites I see are those who profess to be socialists but then go on to make totally anti socialist remarks about ideas and people, invariably on a personal, and insulting basis.

    Do you recognise yourselves?


    2: & 3:... As a total atheist, and a person who cannot accept any of the associated rubbish spewed out in the name of spiritual matters, I cannot be descibed as such.

    I did say apply to your dictionary, but as you failed to so do, I have done it for you.


    I will accept that my rhetoric is rather sharp, but there is absolutely no way, under anty definition of the word, that for my remark, re your educational standard, I can be termed a bigot.

    Which more or less substantiates my use of the remark.


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  • 99. At 1:37pm on 21 Oct 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    Yes there is - your claim of "ambivalence toward the language" and
    "Cymraeg is NOT the major language here in this region, but an almost defunct language," - either displays ignorance or hypocrisy.

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  • 100. At 09:37am on 22 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    message 99...


    Once again I refer you to the definitionm of the word hypocrite


    But that said, I am convinced you have no personal dictionary to consult, so try the online dictionaries, of which there are a few available.

    Re the language, I did say 'almost' defunct, and I am certain that, without the pressures being put on its enforcement into our educational system, and the tax funds being expended on it, it would soon be in the same category as Cornish and Sumeraian.

    Then again, I insist it is NOT the major language in this region, it falls almost into the same level of usage as Urdu, considering the number of Immigrants from the north sub continent who now populate much of our territory. Which language is expanding as Cymraeg declines.
    I could not say just when the cross over point will be reached, but I wager it will not be beyond 2020.

    I know it kills your pig to have me state it, but THE MAJOR language in Wales is.... English.

    Live with it.

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  • 101. At 09:43am on 22 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    message 99.....


    Hypocracy: the assuming of a false appearance of virtue or goodness whilst acting in an opposite manner.

    Hypocrite: A pretender, a dissembler, one who pretends to be one thing, but acts in the opposite way to what he professes.


    Are there any other words you need defining, please do not hesitate to submit them for my attention.

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  • 102. At 2:02pm on 22 Oct 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "Hypocrite: A pretender, a dissembler, one who pretends to be one thing, but acts in the opposite way to what he professes."

    Excellent definition applicable to one who pretends to be "ambivalent" towards the Welsh language but whose continuous and consistent observations are hostile in the extreme.

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  • 103. At 2:33pm on 22 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    102...


    It is apparently pointless attempting to communicate with you,

    I have explained to you, the difference between being ambivalent to the language, as a means of communication, and castigating those who are attempting, through our tax system to enforce it into our every life aspect.

    Maybe you should, likewise, make a partial attempt, at least, to comprehend what you have been told.

    I will give it another go...


    I am not in the slightest interested in the language personally, anyone can take it up, anyone can use it, be they 'naturally' born into it, or otherwise. Just as many take up a whole plethora of languages, some even, more than one.

    However, that said, (which demonstrates my ambivalence to it), I object to it, as it has little value beyond the schoolroom, and for those who wish to turn Wales into Cymru, for the simple reason it costs us an ever increasing large sum of tax funding.

    Look at it as you may, but it was not the undferstanding of the electrorate that this would be the outcome of devolution, and attempt to enforce all kids to learn a language they and their parents obviously have little time for.

    Nor, I suspect, are they truly au fait with the expenditure of their taxes on so promoting this worthless language.

    Effectively, I detect in my commentary no conflict whatsoever over my ambivalence towards the language, and the fact that I disparage the politicisation of it, for what has now come to be seen as overt indoctrinaire purposes.
    Therein lies my interest, or disinterest,... whatever.

    The matter of my distrust of, and antipathy to, the existence of the Assembly/WAG, I have outlined elsewhere.

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  • 104. At 4:02pm on 22 Oct 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "I object to it, as it has little value beyond the schoolroom, and for those who wish to turn Wales into Cymru, for the simple reason it costs us an ever increasing large sum of tax funding."

    There is no problem with this, it's your point of view. But you can't qualify that with "ambivalence" - If you object to it, for whatever reason, you object to it. I withdraw my hypocrisy charge as you obviously don't understand the nuances of the English language, which to be fair is a lesser sin than hypocrisy.

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  • 105. At 4:50pm on 22 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    104...


    You can withdraw all you like, but as with 'bigot' you are wrong about the meaning of hypocrisy
    You used it out of context, plain and simple.

    Back to ambivalence,... I have made it very plain, but you are obtuse.

    The language can live or die, I care not one whit, which makes me ambivalent about the language per se.
    Saying the language is useless has been explained time and again, but again, you are obtuse, and cannot understand the nuances of English yourself.
    To once again put it more fully, BEYOND the confines of Wales, even then only in ever decreasing pockets, it is USELESS. Which to qualify, is saying it has no commercial, or social interchange value of any note or size.

    Can you understand the directness of that, or are the direct 'nuances' beyond you?

    But I will not tolerate the funding by the taxpayer nor the pressures from the proposals in the LCO, nor the WLB, nor the same from the cocked up, and as yet unpublished, results of the AWC, or it's sidekick, the similarly Assembly funded TW.

    Which has NOTHING to do with my ambivalence over the continuance, or extinction of the language, they are separate and distinctly different matters.

    There are no 'nuances' or subtleties in the foregoing, so please no more feeble attempts to mark my wordage down, it is unnecessary, especially when you try to be overly clever in a language you are patently not quite up to the mark in yourself..

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  • 106. At 8:52pm on 22 Oct 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    Map - I don't care what you think and will now desist from engaging with you - have a nice life.

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  • 107. At 9:15pm on 22 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    message 106....

    The truth being, you have been vcaught with your pants down but are to up your own rear to admit it.

    End of.

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  • 108. At 9:26pm on 23 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 107

    The end of the English language as we know it, perhaps...

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  • 109. At 00:23am on 24 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    108,,...

    ...and that demonstrates just what a total wally you really are.

    At the rate Cymraeg is growing, (backwards) it will not be long before it has passed into history, but English is spreading like wildfire, across the whole world, and it will be many centuries before it will be modified to the extent it becomes a totally new language.

    So go away and chatter with your fellow Cymro, while you can, if indeed you can that is, I cannot see it lasting your lifetime never mind centuries, except as an acedemic exercise for some small group of bored academics to pass their time away som,e time in the far distant future..

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  • 110. At 10:40am on 24 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 109

    Again you show your true colours - you can't wait for the Welsh language to to die. Well, it's not going to die anytime soon - indeed, as you well know it's on the way back!

    But I wasn't talking numbers, I was making a point about the standard of English written by a monoglot such as yourself who was so lucky (you say!)in having avoided a Welsh/bi-lingual education. Yes, English is still growing, but what kind of English will it be?

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  • 111. At 1:54pm on 24 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    message 110....

    Again that nose is being lengthened, these continuous lies from you are so fascinating to see being placed before the blog.

    I have NEVER said I was lucky to have avoided learning the language.

    If I said anything anywhere near that, it would have been from a stance of being ambivalent to the language, not because, as you are attempting to imply, that I have animosity towards it.

    As for being monoglot, yes I more or less am, bar a few snatches of Arabic and French, both of which I find, and have found necessary when in the areas those two are common currency.

    So to return to the Cymraeg, why would I need to become embroiled in taking that language on board?

    Just to be able to talk about, what to someone else in this region, what for, they all speak English do they not?

    Why indeed is it found necessary to even teach the language in our educational establishments?
    Again, to what end?.. so the kids can converse about nothing other than what they can just as easily, if not more readily, do in the English they were bred to.

    I accept that some aspects of life-skills can be worth keeping, if only so those skills, Knitting for example, will not be totally lost to us, but I can imagine the creams iof anguish if the Assembly decided to force all kids in Welsh school to learn that skill, on the basis a few hundred in Wales do it on a regular basis.

    Tesco, Asda, Peacocks et al, sell cheap knitted goods, universally across the UK, but I can see the value of retaining the hand craft of knitting, just as I CAN see the retention of the Cymraeg language on the same basis, but if those outlets were forced to run as large a range of hand knitted goods on their shelves, at their own expense, just as the whole of Wales is being compelled to 'stock' the language, at taxpayers expense, there would be uproar throughout the retail trade.

    That is how I, and others, feel about the legislative enforcement of Cymraeg across this region.

    And that is why, once a future government rationalises the whole matter of funding in Wales, it will cease to tolerate the funding it provides at present.

    Once that occurs, the language will once again dive for the floor, where in truth, by now, it should have already landed.

    Full circle on this, as I have been saying for a few years, the language will ultimately be compelled to look to its main support, which is, those who find a use for it, the vast majority do not, despite it being rammed into us from every angle, currently.

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  • 112. At 4:56pm on 24 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 111

    You can rant as much as you like, you can throw insults as much as you like, you can wish the language dead as much as you like - it'll make no difference. You are a among a dying breed of intolerant, conservative dinosaurs, scared stiff of anything that doesn't fit into your comfortable little world-view.

    You can claim that you are merely ambivalent towards the language as much as you like, but every monoglot word that you utter rather gives the game away.

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  • 113. At 5:53pm on 24 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    112....


    Just keep on lying Pinocchio.

    But while in a state of ennui some time, take a look at a very good dictionary, to discover the meaning of the word 'ambivalent'.

    I will tell you what it means, ...walk either way, com si, com sa, have mild interest, with no particular attachment to either side of a debate or discussion.

    So if you don't mind, try your hardest not to put words into my mouth, you are but a rank amateur.

    Also, the only game being played is by the likes of you, with your outright lying ways.

    I ask you again to provide the message numbers of all those that are supposed to contain the remarks, and comments you have falsely accused me of writing.

    I have great patience, but I fear it will be stretched very far, because you will not so answer, it would mean being caught out for the mendacious little gnome you really are.

    Finally, having been challenged, this is the last time I shall do so for the present, all those reading this blog will without doubt also wait to see your feeble attempts to wriggle off that hook I have you on, so when you fail, miserably, to comply with my request, they will know you for the lying fool you are.

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  • 114. At 02:13am on 25 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 113

    Do you really think everyone is as unintelligent as you?

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  • 115. At 2:59pm on 25 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    114...

    Strangely enough, most who come onto this and other blogs seem to think the very opposite, and if you care to trawl back over many months on this particular blog, you will see for yourself that in the estimation of many, it is yourself that lacks the mental wherewithall to engage the blog.

    It is an old trick of the ingnoramus, a well established schoolyard tactic in fact, to try making his mental superior look small, by attacking the intelligece of his antagonist.

    Try again squirt.

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