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It's all in the ...

Betsan Powys | 12:01 UK time, Tuesday, 20 October 2009

What's the secret of good comedy? Timing.

And what about politics? Mmm ... if you've just toyed with saying timing again, then you may be interested by this. The Secretary of State, Peter Hain will be giving a lecture in the Wales Governance Centre in Cardiff next Thursday.

His chosen subject? "Good news: more powers for Wales."

It turns out his subject is ... timing.

Mr Hain, "as a passionate devolutionist ... presents the case for the incremental devolution of powers to the Assembly and argues the current devolution settlement is working well. The process enabling the Assembly to take on more and more law making powers delivers much more than under the old system, and is being continually reviewed and improved. He warns against a holding a referendum on full law making powers prematurely".

Rather neat really. His subject is timing and let's pause for a minute to consider the timing of his lecture. It's bang, slap in the middle of the Labour leadership race. It's a matter of weeks before Sir Emyr Jones Parry and the All Wales Convention present their report on the issues surrounding a referendum - one where it's reported we'll be surprised by the extent of the comment and the decisiveness of that comment.

Mr Hain, it seems, will be getting in first.

Comments

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  • 1. At 1:00pm on 20 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    Maybe if Hain is so keen on devolution, he would consider going back to South Africa, where I am sure he could assist some of their regions to devolve.

    His timing is immaterial, although I do agree, being the commedian he is, he may well have judged it about right, timed just far back enough, prior to his retirement, to substantiate the damage done to his region by his pal and outgoing 'wished he had been the Welsh president', dear ol' Rodney Morgan.

    Get off the stage Peter, your jokes fall flat on the ears of those who oppose the whole thing, and who resent your immigrant interference in our local affairs.

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  • 2. At 1:52pm on 20 Oct 2009, MH at Syniadau wrote:

    Peter Hain's attitude is perfectly understandable. He put a lot of work into the Government of Wales Act 2006, and he regards it as one of his major achievements.

    Sir Emyr Jones Parry, on the Politics Show on Sunday, went out of his way to acknowledge that it was a very considerable political achievement to get the Act through. But his reason for doing that was surely to say - in as gentle and as kind a way as possible - that it is NOW time to move on. They are wise words from a top-ranking diplomat.

    All the polls have shown a steady increase in the margin of people who now want to vote Yes in the referendum. Both polls published earlier this year (one was conducted in late 2008) showed the margin had increased to 13% in favour. Sir Emyr said that the poll conducted this summer showed "a clear trend" ... which can ONLY mean the margin has increased yet further.

    Peter Hain is on record as saying he wanted his Act to last for a generation. But very few things in politics are that long-lasting. I think he should take the sincere praise that Sir Emyr gave him for getting it through ... but accept that most people in Wales are now ready for things to move on.

    MH @ Syniadau

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  • 3. At 2:02pm on 20 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 1

    Is this not racist, West-Wales, Stonemason et al?

    "Get off the stage Peter, your jokes fall flat on the ears of those who oppose the whole thing, and who resent your immigrant interference in our local affairs."

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  • 4. At 2:39pm on 20 Oct 2009, puredrivelagain wrote:

    You beat me to it FiDafydd, it certainly is a bit rascist there.

    I was under the impression that old Mapexx himself came from east of the border, which would make him of the same ilk as Hain...if my understanding is correct then Mapexx should take his own advice...

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  • 5. At 4:15pm on 20 Oct 2009, John Henry wrote:

    drivel
    It doesn't matter where you originate, it is your domicile that matters, and once you are domiciled in the United Kingdom you are free to hold opinions and express feelings. It matters not whether you are mapexx, Hain or John Dixon, one thing is for certain, in a century's time your opinions will be held as equally odd, of course if history is re-written who knows what people will make of mapexx, hero possibly.

    When Mr Hain writes "as a passionate devolutionist ... presents the case for the incremental devolution of powers to the Assembly and argues the current devolution settlement is working well." He is right, only the 2nd division buffoon brigade in Cardiff are not able to see it, they have other agenda's outwith good governance, a little like Alice in wonderland.

    David Cameron is committed to devolution, and it's not going away, so I am looking at how devolution can work for the little people whilst opposing the separatist socialist vision, or to be precise "state sponsored lunacy the Plaid way".

    A little tied up at the moment, though I think talk of racism is probably nonsense, as racist as wanting to ban people from England from buying homes in Gwynedd, if you think it is racist, complain.

    Conservative democracy, please!.


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  • 6. At 4:50pm on 20 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 5

    I'm not going to complain - I want everyone to see mapexx's words for themselves.

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  • 7. At 4:58pm on 20 Oct 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "When Mr Hain writes "as a passionate devolutionist ... presents the case for the incremental devolution of powers to the Assembly and argues the current devolution settlement is working well."

    The current system of LCO transfers is a totally scandalous form of bad governance. It would be difficult to design such a convaluted, lengthy complex pile of nonsense. This is from the House of Lords (yes Dear God they get involved as well..)

    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2009/10/17/climate-change-law-bid-hits-a-snag-with-lords-91466-24949836/

    This LCO was first announced in June 2007. Astonishing, remarkable, ridiculous process. It's just embarrassing to explain to outsiders how our country is governed....

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  • 8. At 5:03pm on 20 Oct 2009, daverodway wrote:

    Wow, Mapexx, what a lovely example of nasty intolerant BNP style racism - tell a longtime resident of Wales, and a veteran anti-racism campaigner who fought apartheid when the tories supported it to go *home* because you disagree with him on a matter of devolved governance.
    How enlighetened.
    One could not ask for a better example of the true nature of the anti-Welsh and anti-devolution brigade than that.
    Perfect. Thank you for reminding us yet again where the nastminded intolerance really lies.
    Fish. Barrell. Shooting.

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  • 9. At 5:39pm on 20 Oct 2009, John Henry wrote:


    It is sad that legislation drafted at Cardiff, with lots of legal and constitutional advice I'm sure, had concerns about the clarity and transparency expressed by the House of Lords committee.

    It is interesting how the legislation was described ...

    The way the LCO has been drafted complicates the situation further, says the report, because of the inclusion of carve-outs or exceptions to exceptions.

    As if the people who drafted the legislation hadn't thought it out before putting pen to paper, worrying ....

    .... makes me glad the House of Lords are involved.

    It also raises the question, how ready is Cardiff Bay for further powers, if they cannot get a carrier bag issue right it is no wonder the WAG preferred to stop housing tenants from buying rather than building sufficient homes.

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  • 10. At 7:01pm on 20 Oct 2009, puredrivelagain wrote:

    Stonemason,

    It's not my opinion, it was Mapexx's outrageous text we were quoting. Hain is also domicilied in Wales, and as an elected member for Neath he has every right to comment, whether you or I agree or disagree on what he says is neither here nor there, I think we agree on that.

    Your defence of Mapexx is sweet but you really should be insisting he get his house in order before criticising others.

    Interestingly though, no calls from yourself for him to sharpen up...

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  • 11. At 7:04pm on 20 Oct 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    Trying to slip legislation through with little or no scrutiny may be
    the way at the bay but the real politicians at Parliament won't have it,
    and quite rightly so.We've seen so much bad legislation slipped through
    even the constitution without proper examination.Slowly Slowly catchee monkey?

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  • 12. At 8:14pm on 20 Oct 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    1,2,and 8 Maapex did not contravene the house rules in his post.That's
    official not speculative. So it gives me great pleasure to say 'Wrong again you mugs!!!!!

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  • 13. At 8:14pm on 20 Oct 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    Well the pieces of this political theater are coming nicely together:-

    For those of us interested in the use of "process", - the manipulation of events to achieve a political end, - its fascinating.

    This was not of course the begining, - only the start of this sequence;

    First - The Wales Act 2006 - which later generated the debates over the LCO's, the badly written applications, confrontations with Westminster, Wales has a right to decide machinations, and of course publicity.

    The fortuitous result of an election concerned with other issues, the Coalition and "The One Wales Agreement", putting Constitutional levers in the hands of Plaid, a major lucky break, and not something anyone voted for.

    Next the propoganda - The AWC and Tomorrows Wales, with plenty of positive media coverage, but sadly little public interest.
    Apart from selling the message, a big focus of this period was to deny a voice, and destroy the credibility, of those opposing the process.
    Given the differential in spending power and media support - there was no contest. - it didn't matter, few took any notice!!!

    The real problem now, is Joe Public doesn't seem to be buying the message, or interested in the great game.
    The language LCO stirred things up - on balance probably a mistake, more negative than positive - if enacted before a referendum it will be a disaster for the process.

    So now for the disinformation.
    The opinion polls which seem to show strengthening support for more devolution.
    But - surprisingly, a view not reflected in either the Assembly, or European, Election results.
    Nor in gossip down the pub, or among friends!
    Reinforcement is needed - so Yougov under the direction of WGC, are now to produce evidence to build the idea of public support. Hopefully build the feeling of support.

    The sideshow of the leadership race - a non event, or was it - probably designed to focus public attention on Welsh politics, and the Assembly.

    Now the game draws to a close - Sir Emyr is shortly to present the much heralded report: -
    Betsan comments it's reported we'll be surprised by the extent of the comment and the decisiveness of that comment.
    Betsan we will not be in the least surprised, its clear the process demands it will strongly support "More Powers".

    Peter Hain, is to make a speech, the drum roll introduction for Sir Emyr's great proposals, Setting the scene and building the Nationalist Ferver.
    Hain the architect of the 2006 Wales Act, an important player in the process, why else was he returned to the Welsh Office after his disgrace.

    The people in the shadows, know that all the pressure is from Politicians and activists - not the people.
    It is after all "The People" they have to convince, they cannot, dare not let the opposing view be heard. The case "for" is weak - too weak!!


    But

    Hard economic realities are begining to focus public attention.
    WAG is for many discredited has failed to deliver, and holds little interest, if any, for most.
    The UK political wind is turning - when will they get another chance.

    Now will they, dare they call a referendum, - the question they have to answer is -

    Just how gullible are the Welsh people.




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  • 14. At 8:27pm on 20 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 5

    Stonemason,

    You said in relation to mapexx's outburst:

    "I think talk of racism is probably nonsense, as racist as wanting to ban people from England from buying homes in Gwynedd..."

    It may be the punctuation, or are you actually conceding that there are many occassions when showing a preference for the local community - often poor in places like Gwynedd - is perfectly acceptable?

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  • 15. At 9:04pm on 20 Oct 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    I'm afraid impartial moderation is no longer available on Betsans Blogs.
    If Maapex's post does not contravene house rules how can Daverodway,
    Fi Dafydd and puredrivelagain be allowed to post abusive and objectionable insinuations.
    One rule for the NATS and one rule for the rest of us.

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  • 16. At 9:17pm on 20 Oct 2009, penddu wrote:

    thesnatgwatter is getting more and more riduculous with his comments. Oh well that is what happens when you lose your council seat, eh Nigel???

    ps there are some great (and apt) anagrams to be made from his name, but the mods would never allow them.....

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  • 17. At 9:22pm on 20 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 15

    Because what he said was racist.

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  • 18. At 9:40pm on 20 Oct 2009, John Henry wrote:


    No FiDafydd

    ....

    The poor housing prospects in Gwynedd for owner occupation is not going to be resolved here, it is a combination of low wages and house price inflation creating a seemingly insurmountable problem. There is only one real time answer, that is the building of more social housing.

    Gwynedd council to find the land, and HA's to do the building, preventing social housing sales is not part of the equation as long as the properties are not sold below its debt value, as most tenants remain in their properties released money enables the HA to build even more without going back to the money market.

    Racism, no, just lack of good business sense coupled with social and political prejudices, just the bones but you get the process.

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  • 19. At 9:46pm on 20 Oct 2009, Lyn David Thomas wrote:

    One thing that has passed some people by is that an LCO is not legislation, its a passing of power from one body to another. The fact that the LCOs are drawn up so narrowly, so as to restrict that power causes the problems. The original Richard Commission suggested such a solution for a one Assembly term so as to gather expertese at drawing up legislation in Cardiff. They saw it as a stop gap measure. If it is to continue then I forsee constant struggles. How difficult it must be for any incoming government in Wales to produce a legislative program when it takes two years to gain the power to pass legislation in a narrowly defined field.

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  • 20. At 11:34pm on 20 Oct 2009, Ian wrote:

    Peter Hain is becoming a running joke in defending the ridiculous LCO system. Sometimes, you just have to admit that you got it wrong, for he won't get away with it in the history books.

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  • 21. At 00:36am on 21 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 18

    Stonemason,

    But you said:

    "I think talk of racism is probably nonsense, as racist as wanting to ban people from England from buying homes in Gwynedd..."

    Which means two things -

    1. You deny mapexx's outburst was racist - which is outrageous

    2. That you agree that positive discrimination at times is acceptable. Just like the toff Cameron now believes in women only shortlists for Westminster.

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  • 22. At 09:24am on 21 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    All messages containing the word 'racist' which are attempts to denigrate myself....


    Peter Hain is, or was a south African.


    There is no such thing as a south African 'race'.

    NO more than there is a Welsh 'race'

    In that country there are many political problems, far worse than the problems here in Wales.

    Yes, Hain was very vocal in his 'expatriate' condemnation of apartheid, from a safe distance, unlike many others who remained in south Africa to fight their corner.

    Yes, we all did our own little bit to fight and condemn the system, I stopped buying their produce, and put my coins in the collection boxes. until I realised that by doing so I was helping to put the very people I hoped to help, out of work as their places of employment closed for lack of business.

    Unlike many of you I also took careful note of the public performance of Mr Hain over the years he spent in this country, supposedly fighting the fight, had he had the balls he would have been alongside Mandela on Robyn Island, not here in the UK mouthing off and settling himself into our political system. The result of which he is now deeply embedded into our locality attempting to persuade the electorate to sunder ties with the rest of the UK.

    What's agenda? maybe he is attempting to follow Blair and is setting himself up as President in waiting now that Rodney has finally decided to scarper with a whole region wrecked under his 'rule'.

    As for 'racist', there are none so bad as those who would drag the UK into a state of separation, utilising the name 'English' at every opportunity to press forward their unworthy and unsustainable case.

    For which they are creating a mental state state in the people of this region that so defines England as some sort of evil entity with almost baby eating, female raping, and male emasculating proposals at every turn of phrase.

    I have been suspicious of Hain ever since I first came across him, and nothing being said about this phony 'racism' will alter those suspicions.


    As for....


    ... 1. You deny mapexx's outburst was racist - which is outrageous


    The only thing outrageous is the fact the moderators have allowed such commentary to pass muster, considering it was totally incorrect and amounts to a libellous comment..


    For the person who made issue of my previous location, I note with great interest that person failed to respond to my previous mention of David LLoyd George's place of birth and 'immigrant' status.

    Not that I am an 'immigrant from east of the border' whatever that is supposed to mean,, Wales being just a region, in common with all the other parts of the UK,I do not recognise such a 'border' it is all in the imagination of the nutters who seem to think that taking this region into a political no mans land will gain them some undefined international status, when in fact it will bring a doomsday disaster on our people, of unimaginable proportions.
    Finally, now that 'apartheid' has been eradicated, I see no reason at all why Hain should not gird his loins and return to his original location, where his not inconsiderable political 'talents' should stand him in good stead, One never knows, we could well see him become the future president of the RSA.

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  • 23. At 09:26am on 21 Oct 2009, John Henry wrote:


    #21

    I have re-read mapexx's comment at #1 and find nothing racist in its content. I found a great sense of outrage from mapexx directed at "Hain" who he probably regards as the architect of the current devolution settlement. If the comment was racist the moderators would have deleted it I am sure.

    In answer your second question, I think it was answered at Betsan's "No Problem".

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  • 24. At 09:43am on 21 Oct 2009, John Henry wrote:


    I just read a new story of Mahatma Gandhi

    As he hurriedly boarded a train that was beginning to depart, one of Gandhi’s sandals fell on to the track. He immediately took off his second sandal and threw it close to the one that had fallen, so that later somebody would find them, and have a pair of sandals to wear.

    FiDafydd, I do not believe Mahatma Gandhi was concerned with who might pick up and wear the sandals, is this positive discrimination ?

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  • 25. At 10:29am on 21 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 22

    You had all day yesterday to think of how to reply - and that's the best you can do?! How can anyone debate with someone who pens something as utterly ridiculous as this:

    "For which they are creating a mental state state in the people of this region that so defines England as some sort of evil entity with almost baby eating, female raping, and male emasculating proposals at every turn of phrase."

    Re 23, 24

    I'm afraid Stonemason that you said what you said, and it's there for all to see. You conceded that it is right to use positive discrimination, at times, in places like Gwynedd. As I said, the toff Cameron is a convert to this way of thinking.

    Among his many great achievements, Gandhi will be remembered for standing up to the British Empire's built in, barbaric racism. What I see in this story is how much greater he was as an individual than that whole violent escapade.


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  • 26. At 10:57am on 21 Oct 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    16 As on so many posts on Betsans Blogs Penddu/Blackhead your logic or conclusions have been proven without substance as has your warped ideology. So if you have to make your flippant and childish comments make sure your facts are right first.

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  • 27. At 11:07am on 21 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    message 25....


    As usual... nothing to contribute. Yesterday I had other matters to attend to, so no time to even think about a clown who commences with a capital letter, then leaves a void, prior to the final period.

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  • 28. At 11:13am on 21 Oct 2009, John Henry wrote:


    Mahatma Gandhi treated all equally, a trait I am yet to discover amongst the separatists of Plaid, the party that fails the little people.

    I have conceded nothing other than all the people of the United Kingdom are equal, in the case of Gwynedd housing I was far more specific, the answer rests with good management not the preferred Plaid option which is discriminatory and ostrich like.

    In the case of the Conservative decision to have single gender short lists I disagree with the decision, though not to the extent that I would make a personal issue or debate the matter with Plaid membership.

    Conservative MP Ann Widdecombe said they were an "appalling" idea and would make women MPs "second class citizens", I agree.

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  • 29. At 11:43am on 21 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    25.....







    '.....Among his many great achievements, Gandhi will be remembered for standing up to the British Empire's built in, barbaric racism. What I see in this story is how much greater he was as an individual than that whole violent escapade.....'


    Another way of looking at Gandhi may be possible. which is...

    He was another South African emigrant, to India this time, where he set about upsetting the apple cart, politically speaking, much along the lines of Hain's efforts here.

    The nett result was not so much Indian independence, but the setting up of the Pakistan state, which despite Gandhi's 'peaceful' methods, resulted in the deaths of millions.

    I am afraid I do not take to such with the same rose tinted spectacles as some.

    Yes, he may well have 'sat down' to protest, but his 'sitting down' raised the level of expectation to such a degree that the bloodshed that ensued could only be laid directly at his feet, no matter the stance he took with the British Raj remnant regime.

    I saw him as a slimy little muck stirrer who had the audacity to stir up India, when it could least afford to be stirred up.when the real way of tackling the problem was to allow the Hindu's and Muslims to sort it out themselves, the potential being what occurred in the north and east would have been unlikely to take place, as a patient approach was more than likely the way the whole matter would have proceeded. He was an opportunist politician, but not only that, he was the tinder to the gunpowder keg that set off the massacres that took place.

    Hain is attempting to do a similar dissection, here in this region, maybe without the religious division that Gandhi engendered, but, as can be seen on these blogs, language is a decent substitute for creed.

    This is a region that can well do without being stirred up, especially in the manner in which it is being done.

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  • 30. At 12:05pm on 21 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 28

    When a Tory attacks any other party of failing 'the little people', I am quite sure that I am not the only one to laugh out loud. Especially now that the Etonian/Bullingdon Club toffs and hooligans have regained full control.

    You said what you said - and it's there for all to read!

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  • 31. At 12:29pm on 21 Oct 2009, John Henry wrote:


    I'm sorry mapexx, but with my rose tinted spectacles off, I do not recognise the Mahatma Gandhi you write of.

    For your elucidation :

    Wiki potted history of Mahatma Gandhi!.


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  • 32. At 1:41pm on 21 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    31....

    Yes Stoney, it's called provocation, but for once, only you have, so far, risen to it.

    I must retract that message, as I am well aware of the whole story, I just couldn't let a chance to have another pop at you know who for the devilment of it.

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  • 33. At 1:44pm on 21 Oct 2009, puredrivelagain wrote:

    Mapexx,

    I'm sorry that you do not recognise the border between England and Wales because the UK government certainly does, as entrenched by the Local Government Act 1972, enacted 1974. An Act that also settled the Monmouthshire issue as being part of Wales.

    Furthermore, Wales was never regarded as a part of England. We stood as 2 countries next to each other with Wales being "annexed into English Law".

    This is still the case - 2 countries with a distinct border drawn, Monmouthshire falling on the Welsh side.

    THIS IS FACT.

    To quote the UK Government we are "countries within a country".

    Proof, as if needed, that you Mapexx live in some fantasy land with beliefs not even shared by the UK government

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  • 34. At 3:12pm on 21 Oct 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    Lyn #19

    an LCO is not legislation, its a passing of power from one body to another.

    Lyn why do we need a different set of laws to the rest of the UK???
    Why in fact do we need the Assembly at all.

    If we in Wales have a problem - Westminster is quite able to pass necessary legislation, note the Welsh Language Education Act 1988 & the Welsh Language Act 1993.

    What we need is not a method of drawing down "More Powers" what we need is a method to return powers to Westminster.


    The experience of devolution since 1997 has not been good - standards and quality of all services delivered by the Assembly has dropped.
    Vast sums of money are being wasted. - It hasn't worked!!! - Whereas the old SoS system did, and it was cheap.
    (Though how we would manage with Hain, I shudder to think)

    Witness the millions (390Million) into the overblown Assembly administration and nearly as much again into the various Cultural departments.
    Millions into grants for approved Welsh charities advancing the Celtic cause, - but nothing to support the non Celtic heritage of Wales.

    The grandiose aspirations - unnecessary Embassies and Trade Offices around the World, when an office in the UK Embassy would suffice.
    Cultural visits by AM's and Officers. - for what?

    Constant studies and reports into how devolution should be embellished, propoganda exercises to convince the sceptical, all at enormous cost.

    Just think how that money could have been spent to help the Welsh people and economy. - Instead wasted!!

    Time has moved on - we now recognise we are over governed - Devolution is not only yesterdays solution, it doesn't work.

    The future is lean and mean - things have to deliver - and we the "British" public, have had enough of political avarice, waste, incompetence, and nonsense.

    Suggest you go and talk to some 6th formers!!! - I have, its an eye opener.

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  • 35. At 3:49pm on 21 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 34

    You sound angry - in fact it seems to be a trait of the British nationalist lobby. There are many reasons why we need devolution. One major reason being that Westminster more often than not does not represent the collective will of the Welsh nation . You're a Tory, I believe - well the old system certainly suited you very well. It's no wonder you're feeling nostalgic for the past. And it is the past.

    Wales for decades has, and I hope will continue to vote overwhelmingly for centre-left parties. That some of those centre-left parties have become prouder of their Welshness over the last 10 years or so can only be good.

    Before devolution, Welsh democracy was absent. It's not perfect now - but what it needs is greater strength and more powers, so that we can prove to ourselves that we can do a better job than, say, Heath or Thatcher or Major.

    "Millions into grants for approved Welsh charities advancing the Celtic cause, - but nothing to support the non Celtic heritage of Wales."

    - whatever, that means it sounds like desperate hyperbole to me. Have you seen that great big copper thing in the Bay - you won't see very many Welsh language productions in there.


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  • 36. At 5:24pm on 21 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 32

    mapexx,

    "Yes Stoney, it's called provocation, but for once, only you have, so far, risen to it."

    - are you actually admitting that you don't in fact mean anything that you say? That, indeed, would make far more sense.

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  • 37. At 5:38pm on 21 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    36....


    Why is there a big ......space..... between the Yes Stoney, and the last period?

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  • 38. At 9:47pm on 21 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 37

    Ah, it's probably where your brain ought to be...

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  • 39. At 9:59pm on 21 Oct 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    Re 33, drivel wrote.
    I'm sorry that you do not recognise the border between England and Wales because the UK government certainly does, as entrenched by the Local Government Act 1972, enacted 1974. An Act that also settled the Monmouthshire issue as being part of Wales.


    Monmouthshire, the biggest injustice in recent British history is now unravelling. And trust me, the Conservatives owe English speaking, pro-British Monmouthshire folk big time!!
    The Conservatives were duped by WELSH Labour, that becoming Welsh was the overwhelming will of Monmouthshire's population, who knew nothing about this nonsense. But what Monmouthshire folk and Conservatives know now, is how nationalistic Welsh Labour in fact are!! Welsh Labour, told the then Conservative Government, it would dilute Welsh nationalism!! What a horrible joke? Before anyone mentions the Plaid stronghold of Caerphilly, that wasn't part of the pre-72 Monmouthshire, but parts of Powis were. Is nationalism in Welsh Labour imagined? Ask the Druid, Paul Flynn? http://www.paulflynnmp.co.uk/senydd.htm

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  • 40. At 10:43pm on 21 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    38....

    Glad you recognise the fact my superlarge brain would just about fit in the overlarge spaces you leave in your messages.

    Without doubt, which is more than can be said for your little pea sized blob of grey matter.

    Is it true the European Space Agency asked to use the gap between your ears for a rocket testing range?
    Or was that just a rumour put out by the true socialists who are familiar with your nonsense?


    Take two paracetomol and retire for the night, the rest may do you good.

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  • 41. At 11:49pm on 21 Oct 2009, puredrivelagain wrote:

    Mapexx - No comeback?

    Jackie - What on earth are you babbling about? Paul Flynn is an MP for Newport West. He is not a Druid. Are you compus mentus?


    As for the Monmouthshire issue, I guess you crazy monmouth unionists missed that little trick back then which surprises me. Is that why you're so angry now? Surely Mapexx could have stopped it with unless his grandoise ideas of self importance are just that, ideas formed by himself.

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  • 42. At 00:10am on 22 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 40

    "Without doubt, which is more than can be said for your little pea sized blob of grey matter.

    Is it true the European Space Agency asked to use the gap between your ears for a rocket testing range?
    Or was that just a rumour put out by the true socialists who are familiar with your nonsense?"

    Just remind me, are you the same person who was asking others not to insult you tonight? Are you the same person who claims you never, ever, ever insult anyone because you're much too clever and grown up for that?

    Once again I feel sorry for Betsan because of some people's adolescent behaviour on her blog.

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  • 43. At 00:43am on 22 Oct 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    RE 41,
    are you gonna tell the little Irish-Welsh Celt, that he's not a Bard of the Gorsedd? He'll not be best pleased!!

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  • 44. At 01:53am on 22 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 45. At 08:21am on 22 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    message 41....


    Re 33.... if you insist.


    I really don't care what the various agencies call Wales, me, I opt for the parameters used by international treaty to define the region, under those parameters it is a REGION....FACT..

    It doe not meet any internationally recognised terminology for a nation, political country or state, as I have said many times before, it is and until recognised, beyond its own borders as a nation, state, or country, by the international community,so it shall remain a REGION....FACT.


    I also do not give a fig about what this REGION was, prior to the modern age, that is all historical dross. Pure and simple..... FACT.

    What has been inappropriately and clumsily enacted in modern times is the root cause of all the dispute.
    For what is yet to come, hopefully to be addressed sooner than later, by the application of a fully and publicly debated referendum, for which is laid out the complete implications between continued union with the UK or alternate arrangements upon the acceptance of separation, should the electorate opt for that, I hold little brief, other than to say I rely on the intellect of the Welsh to resolve the matter in the way I hope they will, by choosing to put aside all that has so far been done in their name, but in reality, without their approval..

    As for the status of Monmouthshire, I leave that to others with a Monmouthshire mentality to chew over. My interest is nil on the subject.

    As far as I am concerned it is like two dogs with their teeth into an old rag, neither giving way for the purpose, and principle, of possession.

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  • 46. At 10:14am on 22 Oct 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 47. At 11:22am on 22 Oct 2009, puredrivelagain wrote:

    45 - you'd better tell the UK Government then so as to save any more embarrassment on their part.

    43 - Jackie, there is a world of difference between a Bard and Druid, but your sort never bother to learn that do you? Just patronise away...

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  • 48. At 11:40am on 22 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 47

    I also explained the difference between bard and druid in 44. Somebody has reported it to the moderators!!!!

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  • 49. At 12:06pm on 22 Oct 2009, puredrivelagain wrote:

    48,

    These things happen. I think we all know this blog is plagued by trolls (those who deliberately make inflammatory remarks), even by their own admission at times.

    It's a shame because when I look at the Scottish blog it's of a much higher quality

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  • 50. At 1:13pm on 22 Oct 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    Drivel #49
    You say;
    this blog is plagued by trolls (those who deliberately make inflammatory remarks)

    Agree - sadly, all sides are guilty!!

    As for;
    look at the Scottish blog it's of a much higher quality

    There is also a great difference in the quality of debate, and calibre of elected members, between the respective Governments.

    Any suggestions why?

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  • 51. At 1:41pm on 22 Oct 2009, puredrivelagain wrote:

    I do have suggestions, your average Scot cares more about their country than we do. Plus they have a full parliament so aren't distracted by the petty bickering for power that we are side tracked by.

    Plus, in fairness, the Scots are a canny race and have certainly been a bit more switched on than us as history has recorded.

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  • 52. At 1:46pm on 22 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    Message 49...


    Oh! yes, such a statement, without doubt aimed at those who oppose further powers to the Assembly, those who wish it disbanded, and those who deprecate the misuse of the language for political reasons.


    But the plain fact is, whenever someone submits a message that attempts to open up rational debate, or responds in a constructive way to another message, it is ONLY those, from the nationalist side, who then begin the downwards path with scurrilous and insulting rhetoric.

    All the others are invariably made in response to those unacceptable messages from that tranche of antagonists

    So it's a bit rich coming from one of those to make such a damning comment when it is himself, and others of his brood, who are primarily the initiating culprits in the unwanted tit for tat.

    If that is to carry on, then it is the moderators task to weed out such persons, upon receipt of their messages.
    The house rules allow for such action, as it is noted that all messages will be premoderated if such persons insist on submitting that type of message, not wait until a vitriolic like response has been made, to which they invariably react, usually leaving the cause of the response to lie on the blog, without action..

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  • 53. At 1:55pm on 22 Oct 2009, puredrivelagain wrote:

    Mappex, how you can take the high road is beyond the Monmouth pale, you are one of the chief instigators of trolling and everyone knows it...you've even admitted to it at times on these blogs, one quite recently in a post to Stoney!!!

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  • 54. At 2:27pm on 22 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 50

    You may think it's because we are inferior to all other nations. Some, (perhaps not you)certainly come very close to saying that on here.

    I think it's because we don't have a proper parliament...yet.

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  • 55. At 2:48pm on 22 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    53,....


    If the moderators would allow it, and they will not because I tried it once, and they canned my message,I would go right back to the very first time both you, and Fi Fi long nose, first responded, in a scurrilous or inappropriate manner, to my messages.


    But by all means, trawl back yourself, and look at the messages, previous to mine, to which you and others responded in the unnecessary fashion to which you obviously cannot recall, but now seem oblivious to, anyway, your past prosaic behaviour.

    It is for that very sound reason I feel absolutely justified in taking the 'high road', as you sarcastically put it.

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  • 56. At 2:58pm on 22 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    54...


    Still don't get it eh?


    Not because Wales is inferior to other ,nations', mlore becuase Wales is NOT a nation.

    Nor is it likley to be, once this menage in Cardiff Bay is done away with.

    Parliament? Oh! do grow up,....you sound like the kid who wears his dads waistcoat and man sized boots, then swaggers about his backyard telling everyone ...


    " Look, I'm all growed Up, just like me daddy!"

    But soon scuttles off to replace the attire, when daddy comes home from the boozer.

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  • 57. At 3:50pm on 22 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 55

    "...I would go right back to the very first time both you, and Fi Fi LONG NOSE, first responded, in a SCURRILOUS or INAPPROPRIATE manner, to my messages."

    - my capitals, and it just makes you look very, very silly. Do you understand?

    Re 56

    "Parliament? Oh! do grow up,....you sound like the kid who wears his dads (sic) waistcoat and man sized boots, then swaggers about his backyard telling everyone ..."

    - had the Estonians, Latvians, Croatians, Indians, Irish, Americans grown up when they wished to have their own parliament, and people like you were saying No! and denying their right to be nations? Why are you not able - never mind the lack of courtesy - to accept that people see things differently to you? Even those who generally support you on here accept that it is quite legitimate for people like me to hold that view, even though they don't share it? Why do you always need to attack any thing which you disagree with unthinkingly? Why is any idea by anyone who dares to think differently to you immediately an idea which you feel you have to despise? Do you realise that debate becomes futile and impossible?

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  • 58. At 4:01pm on 22 Oct 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    Drivel #51

    I cannot agree with - your average Scot cares more about their country than we do.
    We Welsh care as much, and have as great a pride, in our country as anyone anywhere.

    As for - aren't distracted by the petty bickering for power that we are side tracked by.
    That view I also strongly disagree with, - the Scottish Independence debate is as virulent as any we are having over more powers.

    I think at least part of the answer is that the Scots celebrate the differences in their cultures and country.
    They recognise, and build on, the variety of cultures, languages and Dialects, the Highlander, the Lowlander, The various Islanders, even the Glaswegian etc.

    Here in Wales, Our Government's main preoccupation is to convert all Wales to the same Celtic culture.
    Those, like us south of the Lansker, or in Monmouth, who don't fit the pattern, have to submit to the new Culture - By Law.
    Our pleas for respect of our heritage, and consideration for our cultures, rejected out of hand. - to disagree is Anti Welsh.

    So while the Scots consider and work to improve the lot of their people -Our Government has a totally different agenda. - Cultural Engineering.

    My suggestion is this - the Scots care about, and work, for their people.

    We Welsh have allowed a minority of Celtic Zealots to put in place a Cultural revolution program, ignoring the wishes or well-being of people, our prosperity, or the divisions and bitterness created.

    This Blog is itself an excellent example;
    It is mostly about cultural division, and bitterness over the enforcement of the new Celtic order.

    There is little here about building prosperity, or improving the lot of the Welsh people.

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  • 59. At 4:56pm on 22 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 58

    You have to admit that there aren't that many Scots going on and on about them not being a nation, do you?

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  • 60. At 5:27pm on 22 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:


    message 57....

    Right then Pinocchio...



    "...I would go right back to the very first time both you, and Fi Fi LONG NOSE, first responded, in a SCURRILOUS or INAPPROPRIATE manner, to my messages."





    I never thought of capitalising those lines myself, thanks for making them stand out, and emphasising your drawbacks...

    Beyond that you commenced your first message or one of them with a LIE, (capitals for emphasis, again) and you have consistently done the same over many months, You have also resolutely made no attempt to correct those lies or engage in debates that you have attempted to debase with your slurs and insults, and you have the brass neck to accuse me of doing what you yourself are adept at.

    I do not live in any of those places you mention, and consequently am totally disinterested in that pile of rubbish you have wasted your time writing. It is irrelevant to the rest of your message anyway, which is another attempt at presenting a slur.


    As Westy says in his last sentence in message 58, we should be discussing the economics etc of Wales, but whenever someone attempts to do so, you slide in with your slimy slurs, and one line 'never to be backed up' remarks.


    Personally I don't give a damn about what you write, if I disagree with it, I will do so on this blog, so be prepared to get yet more of the same, and for as long as you attempt to undermine both myself, and my messages.

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  • 61. At 5:45pm on 22 Oct 2009, puredrivelagain wrote:

    West-Wales,

    In the pub and on the street we are proud and I agree with you but do we care when it matters? I disagree. There is a massive culture of apathy and laissez-faire towards politics in Wales.

    EJP himself stated that the average Welshman is more concerned with rugby than politics. One only has to look at voter turnout for elections and the referendum to see that we generally don't give a rats about what happens.

    French voting turnout is up nearly 90%, that to me is a country that cares.


    I would agree with you that in Wales we are divisive not constructive, language aside this is still true. The anglicisation of Wales was only partly successful and therein lies a lot of the division, problems and differences of opinions.

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  • 62. At 6:59pm on 22 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 60

    Typical, and confirmation of what I was saying. And it's there for all to see...

    And lacking, as always, in charm and common courtesy.

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  • 63. At 7:50pm on 22 Oct 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    In the strange world of the druids, it's all about the colour of frocks n bonnets. Ovates and bards, can join the Gorsedd by passing a Welsh language examination, ovates can then wear green frocks and the bards can strut their stuff in nifty little blue frocks. They cannot become druids and wear the esteemed white frock unless nominated by druids. Paul Flynn was nominated to druid status for his tireless work in Cymraeg expansionism, he's entitled to wear the white frock.
    Ron Davies and Ann Clywd were also awarded druid status for similar dedication to the language.

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  • 64. At 8:17pm on 22 Oct 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    Drivel #61

    This is true;
    the average Welshman is more concerned with rugby than politics.

    Not only here in Wales - but the whole of the UK and the rest of the World.
    (OK I know some are absorbed with the "Girls Game" and the funny round Ball.)

    But - lets face it the reason - There is a massive culture of apathy and laissez-faire towards politics in Wales. - is because our politicians ideas ring few bells with the non political masses.
    The Assembly down at Cardiff Bay is a different magical dream World, where the most important question is, "how are your Welsh Language lessons going".

    And I think you have part of the answer;
    The Anglicization of Wales was only partly successful and therein lies a lot of the division, problems and differences of opinions.

    Many of those who have been Anglicised are happy and don't want to be messed about with, for most there are major advantages.
    A considerable number have been Anglicised since before 1066 - What interest do they have in reversing the impact of the 1847 report into Welsh Education. - They are more interested in their own culture and heritage, and certainly don't want it submerged or lost, in what is to them an alien culture.

    The Political Elite of our devolved Government are not working for the people - they are bombarded with demands from Celtic culture and Language activists.
    A quick scan of the list of those responding to Assembly consultations will quickly demonstrate my point - its overkill.

    Joe Public is not only not heard - he is ignored.
    The only interest WAG has in him is to turn him into a Celt - ASAP.

    So Joe ignores the Politicians, and doesn't bother to vote.
    Few take any interest in issues that mean nothing to them.

    The big mistake is to put cultural ideology, ahead of bread butter and a roof over our heads.

    Shortly we will have a fresh face in the Chair - will whoever it is, have the courage and vision to see what devolution should be about.

    If the new FM can start building for the people, recognise that Wales has diversity, stop kowtowing to lobbyists and single issue pressure groups, they may get some interest and support from Joe.

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  • 65. At 10:22pm on 22 Oct 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    No, I'm sorry, I might repeat myself, and so might West-Wales, but there is an attack on English speaking British culture, and it doesn't just come from Plaid!! It comes from Welsh elite separatists within what Rhodri calls...Explicitly Welsh Patriotic Party!!!..Scary or what?
    Isn't it about time that British Labour called time on the language crazed fundamentalists?

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  • 66. At 11:19pm on 22 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 67. At 11:26am on 23 Oct 2009, puredrivelagain wrote:

    West-Wales,

    Despite my nationalist rants at Mapexx, just because he literally asks for it, I agree with you completely.

    The language should be encouraged, subtely, it does not need to be force fed. I think all public sector organisations and large chains should stock a small supply of welsh language material to be used when requested. For anyone else, it's good business practice to have it but optional.

    Welsh language should be compulsory up to the age of 14 as it used to be. There's no point forcing someone who isn't go to want to learn to take it because they won't use it and as what happened in my school, the kids who do want to learn can't because of the disruptive element who didn't want to be there.

    Celebrate our differences as welsh people and utilise that old welsh chestnut "come on, let's have a bit of common sense is it?"

    If Joe Soap wants to open his new shop with welsh signage, let him, if Barry Jones thinks he's mad tough, it's Joe's shop. Barry should be thinking fair play.

    Which at end of the day, is what I see happening on the street, this blog is a bit "out there" at times.

    I've said before and I'll say it again, my experience of South Wales is as a competition to see who's the most Welsh person around. In North Wales we've several accents - gog, english, scouse, half gog half english/scouse. But we are all fairly united as North Walians. You could learn a thing or 2 about unity from us Gogs.

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  • 68. At 3:29pm on 23 Oct 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "A considerable number have been Anglicised since before 1066"

    I'm interested in this West Wales because you've made this claim a few times. There is absolutely no evidence of pre-Norman Saxon settlement in Pembrokeshire. Absolutely none. There's evidence of (earlier) Irish settlements but nothing that suggests that in 1066 Pembrokeshire was not as Welsh as the rest of Wales.

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  • 69. At 4:57pm on 23 Oct 2009, John Henry wrote:

    Does pre-Norman settlement really matter, the industrial settlement during the 17/18/19 century are what matter, particularly the way that people from all corners of Great Britain have learned to live in harmony, except of course the tiny minority.

    I read elsewhere the tiny minority are a little like solvent on the glue of the Union; fortunately the glue is very strong .....

    .... from Lancashire via a dongle.

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  • 70. At 5:07pm on 23 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    message 68...


    2009
    -1066
    =1943 years ago.



    who in his right mind gives a damn?

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  • 71. At 8:36pm on 23 Oct 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    OK Guy's - Dewi's interest is Academic not political.
    I hope!!!!

    Dewi.
    I too have read the accepted history - but modern research raises serious questions.

    nothing that suggests that in 1066 Pembrokeshire was not as Welsh as the rest of Wales
    I dispute both your statements - 1066 all Wales was Welsh - it almost certainly wasn't.
    It was sparsely populated, by disperate waring tribes - we also need to define Welsh - Some certainly had a form of Celtic Culture, but certainly not all.
    These people probably did not acknowledge each other as brothers, or share a common language.

    Of course the main question we are discussing is whether South Pembrokeshire - in fact the whole area south of the Lansker had a different culture and language from the areas to the North.

    I think we can agree there is almost no written evidence, just fragments.

    In 1066 the languages of Pembrokeshire south of the Lansker certainly included a dialect of the early Wessex.

    Today the Pembrokeshire Language (Dialect if you like) still includes early Wessex words and phrases that appear to have gone out of common use by 1066 in what is now England.

    Also - the Norman Plantation in Pembrokeshire was Flemish - there is no record of Anglo-Saxons being settled.
    But the written records of these Flemish settlers is in Pembrokeshire English - Now if at the time of Plantation the indigenous Language was Welsh, wouldn't these settlers learn Welsh not English.

    You mention the Irish - as we discussed previously the migration in the fourth century of the Deisi, from Co. Meath, lead by Eochaid Allmuir, was an important event, leading to the setting up of the kingdom of Dyfed.
    It was a peaceful arrival maybe by invitation, we'll never know.
    But they avoided Milford Haven, which seems to have been a major centre at that time, instead landing on the Gower and at Fishguard.
    The suggestion is that they avoided disturbing existing settlements.
    Until the relevant documents, thought to be held in Irish monasteries are found and researched we cannot know.

    As I have mentioned before my interest (hobby if you like) is Neolithic/Megalithic ocean trading.
    There is strong evidence that in Megalithic times the coast of Pembrokeshire (and southern England and the Cornish peninsula) dealt with and was settled by these traders.
    I can waffle on at length here - but I'll just point out that Plato's dialogues 'Timaeus' and 'Critias' says;
    ".. in those days the Atlantic was navigable from the straits, which are by you called the Pillars of Hercules, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the opposite continent."

    There is evidence that the Severn, Avon, and Bristol Channel were trading and travel routes.
    There was along the south coast of Wales a network of thriving independent communities.
    It would be foolish to assume they did not share a common language. What it was I have no idea - but it would have been relatively international.
    It is certain that they shared a culture different from that of Inland Wales.
    Is it possible that the lansker is very much older than we think and in fact the border seperating those cultures, worth some research.
    Of course the language of government and religion at the time was Latin!
    The Welsh Language did not start to develop and coalesce from the many tribal Brythonic based dialects until the 6th century - a long time after.

    A key to how important this network of water borne trader routes was in the 5th century is the travels of the Celtic Saints, during the Age of Bishops.
    Without travelling by sea and rivers its almost inconceivable that they could have covered the distances they achieved.

    Take St David - He became renowned as a teacher and preacher, founding monastic settlements and churches in Wales, Cornwall and Brittany in a period when neighbouring tribal regions were still mostly pagan. He rose to a bishopric, and presided over two synods, as well as going on pilgrimages to Jerusalem (where he was anointed as an archbishop by the Patriarch) and Rome.

    Busy man - OK he lived to 89, but he surely didn't do all that on horseback

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  • 72. At 9:00pm on 23 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    70....


    Not unless he was a better swimmer than Mark Spitz. But at 89?

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  • 73. At 9:21pm on 23 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 69 and 70

    Why so scared of Welsh history?

    Griffin is MEP for Lancashire, isn't he?

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  • 74. At 10:03pm on 23 Oct 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    http://old.paulflynnmp.co.uk/newportdetail.jsp?id=913

    Re 41,
    Hi ya drivel, just to make sure you know exactly who the babbling idiot is, it's you!! Denial of an obvious fact, tends to make one look stupid.

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  • 75. At 00:17am on 24 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    message 73....


    Don't be bloody childish and provocative. We know only too darn well that 'Welsh history' is of importance only to silly idiots who think it is, the Plaid nationalists mob.

    But they are impotent, not important in Wales.

    For most people it is an irrelevance, as you well know, so go away and play your inane games somewhere else.

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  • 76. At 06:11am on 24 Oct 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "In 1066 the languages of Pembrokeshire south of the Lansker certainly included a dialect of the early Wessex"

    West Wales - you really need to provide any tiny bit of evidence for such a ridiculous claim - especially as you say "certainly" - it's not certain at all - indeed you are making it up!!!

    "Today the Pembrokeshire Language (Dialect if you like) still includes early Wessex words and phrases that appear to have gone out of common use by 1066 in what is now England" Here's your big chance West Wales - Name me ONE, JUST ONE, of those pre 1066 "early Wessex words and phrases"

    "1066 all Wales was Welsh - it almost certainly wasn't.
    It was sparsely populated, by disperate waring tribes"

    Actually united under Gruffydd ap Llywelyn by 1063 - the following years saw the usual falling out amongst the sons but "disparate warring tribes" is again nonsense.

    The stuff above is not really in dispute - what is interesting is the linguistic development post Norman plantation - you are correct that Pembrokeshire English has South West England ties. Personally I think the Flemish were only a minor part of the plantation - extraordinarily little linguistic evidence of Flemish in Pembrokeshire.

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  • 77. At 09:19am on 24 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    76....

    How can you even think this?




    '.... Actually united under Gruffydd ap Llywelyn by 1063 - the following years saw the usual falling out amongst the sons but "disparate warring tribes" is again nonsense.....'


    Were you there?, ...No.

    Are you not attempting to place the disparate Wales of 1063 into the same demographic context as 2009?...Yes you are.

    Even the most basic study of historical demography will leave you with no misapprehensions about how most of the island of Britain was at the time in regards population distribution, along with social and communal
    activity.

    There was no instant means of communications, the whole social fabric was effectively divided between warring tribal overlords, and the clergy. One, invariably, not treading on the toes of the other, most of the time.

    Records were to domain of the clergy, and were generally slanted to present a religious aspect to all facets of life.

    One period the records present a acceptable face to one or other warlord, at other times according to how relatively 'safe from prosecution and or death' the scribe felt, the same or other warlords were castigated for their activities.

    Wales was a barren land to modern standards of measurement regarding population, it was almost impenetrable to outsiders for most of the territory, and only in the last couple of centuries or so, especially since the advent of the industrial revolution which saw the mountains and hills denuded of flora to feed expanding industry, particularly in the
    south, south east and north east.

    The incoming hordes, whose descendants now comprise more than 7/8ths of the population, added to the extraction of materials and accelerated the denudation of the land both over and above ground level has placed Wales into a position of being totally a different place than it was in the days of sword and sorcery.

    So as I have said many times, to keep referring back to times long gone, is much like saying science should reverse moon shots, or dispense with antibiotics in favour of herbal remedies, that is about the sum total of the worth of attempting to revert Wales to its past.

    It was NEVER a glorious past anyway, just a region of death and desperation as what few lived here spent their every waking hour wondering when the next raid would take place that would enslave their menfolk and see their wives mothers and daughters raped and despoiled by those same thugs who wanted to maintain their lifestyles without actually settling one and earning their bread by toil.

    But even then, that was the way of the world in those days, so please don;t be so naive as to think there was some sort of nice cosy life here in Wales in 1063.

    In comparison, you have never had it so good as you have in 2009.


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  • 78. At 09:54am on 24 Oct 2009, John Henry wrote:


    During 1063, Harold, later Harold II defeated 1066 by Normans, with King Edward received homage from the two sons of "Gruffydd ap Llewelyn", he had been previously killed by his own followers.

    Caradoc ap Gruffydd ap Rhydderch was elevated by the same, Harold and Edward, in South Wales.

    When King Edward (the Confessr) received homage it demonstrated that even before Longshanks became King, the tribes of Wales chose to become part of the unfolding chapter of governance from East of Offa's Dyke.

    A thousand years later ......

    there is still nonsense at large, there is still a power struggle between different groups who prefer that I should live my life according to their diktat, get over it, we prefer a "plural" society not the imposed Nationalist agenda proposed by Plaid, the party of Alice's Wonderland.

    via dongle from the wilds of Lancashire, where the people are no different to the people of Glamorgan.

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  • 79. At 11:56am on 24 Oct 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    Dewi #76

    Thanks - No I'm not making it up.
    I don't need to.
    But the ideas seem to be pushing up your blood pressure.

    You want words well here's two - "balshag" & "fugar".
    Out of use in Wessex by 1066, but still used today in Pembrokeshire!!!

    Recent studies on the Old Gower English, which has links to Wessex and the Pembrokeshire Dialect, is also throwing up useful information regarding early population of this coastal area.

    The problem is that much of what is in the history books is based on the studies of E. G. Ravenstein (1879) and A. J. Ellis (1889) which were then reinforced by Williams (1935) - all believed that English was a recent development supplanting the indigenous Welsh (post medieval) due to the arrival of industrial workers, and failed to look deeper.
    Where there were anomalies, as Williams found, these were easily resolved by invoking the Norman Plantations!

    Forgive me for not getting into a debate about ancient Welsh Warlords, not my field of interest - far too much myth, and where there is substantive evidence outside the time frame I am looking at.

    My interest, in this particular instance, is establishing the patterns and flow of trade, and people, from early megalithic times from the rich plains in what is now the West of England using the streams, rivers, and tributaries, and along both shores of the Bristol channel.
    This was the equivalent of our motorways and rail networks.

    While much of this traffic was "local" there was also trade with the wider network of Ocean Traders (my particular interest)
    Forget the idea of boundaries or Wales & England, get out a map and look at the geography - consider the rivers as roads and the Bristol Channel as a motorway and its harbours as the junctions between International and Local trade.

    There are some problems with this, along the South coast there are two quite distinct types of English;
    The main feature of Cardiff English is the totally non-south-western quality and distribution of its 'r' sound, which has 'Danelaw' connections.
    Further West in un-Cymricised South Pembrokeshire, West Gower and East Monmouthshire 'r' is usually distinctly retroflex and survives before consonants.
    However further research will probably resolve those issues.

    The picture that has appeared is of a relatively heavily populated community who share culture, family, and language, bordering the Bristol channel and up into what is now Somerset, Wiltshire, and Gloucester, with trading links throughout the Mediterranean, the African Atlantic Coast, and up into the Baltic. It is possible this community goes back to megalithic times.

    Obviously the use of early proto English in this ribbon cannot predate the Saxon invasions, - but whatever the language of that pre 4th century community was, conversion to the Old Wessex, was apparently coincidental with the language coming into common use in Wessex.
    Where thankfully the Anglo - Saxon Chronicles survive to help.

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  • 80. At 12:21pm on 24 Oct 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "You want words well here's two - "balshag" & "fugar".
    Out of use in Wessex by 1066, but still used today in Pembrokeshire!!!"

    Right, at last a claim that's woth investigating.
    Balshag was used in the Cornish tin mining industry (which IIRC post dated Wessex) to donate a ragged cloth - not that different a meaning.

    Fugar I've not heard - what's it mean?

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  • 81. At 1:54pm on 24 Oct 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    Dewi #80

    Balshag was used in the Cornish tin mining industry (which IIRC post dated Wessex) to donate a ragged cloth

    Thank you - interesting, I have not had time to look for Cornish connections - still on my to do list. (what is IIRC?)

    In Pembrokeshire "balshag" is a ragged person, usually female.
    "Fugar" means a posh dress, finery, sometimes how a room is furnished.

    The Normans kept excellent records, none found to date suggest there was any Plantation of Anglo Saxons into Pembrokeshire.

    In fact King Henry I of England (1100-35), gave or sold rights to Wizo, ‘chieftain of the Flemings’ around 1100.
    Wizo was a locator - an entrepreneur - who put together groups of families to come to Wales and settle his new estates is the only identified person with rights to Pembrokeshire.
    It seems only 48 Flemish families came to Pembrokeshire so its not suprising they rapidly integrated with the existing community.
    Wizo also established a second Flemish colony in Lanarkshire, Scotland.

    I think we can agree prior to 1100 there is little hard evidence.

    However my interest is in the Megalithic Ocean Trading routes and that drew me into looking for evidence of trading patterns around the UK.

    Initially looking at the distribution and type of Burial Chambers, the pattern seems to start in Egypt, and spreads not only through Europe but around the World.
    A big problem is dating - this is very controversial with each research group providing evidence which fits their ideas!!

    Here in Wales the distribution of Burial Chambers is coastal with the largest group around Anglesea.
    Which supports the idea of coastal travel.
    The idea of migration does not fit well, evidence is of long term occupation.
    It is possibly that the communities were part of, or had connections to a nomadic ocean community.

    Using the latest research into linguistics to track early travel patterns and community links has proved very fruitful.

    However where there has been considerable migration and movements of peoples there is blurring.

    But overall the results fit and make a lot of sense.
    You may find it worth looking into!!

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  • 82. At 2:40pm on 24 Oct 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    IIRC - If I recall correctly (I was kidding - I looked it up...)
    You are absolutely correct about sea travel btw - safer and cheaper to transport people about.
    Fugar - not hrad that word before - might it not just have derived in the 900 years post plantation?

    Hard evidence before 1100 - there's plenty.
    Deheubarth was organised in cantrefi of which the ones corresponding to the modern Pembrokeshire Englishry were:

    Penfro, Rhos, Deugleddyf and Gwarthaf.

    Hywel Ddda, the great legislator probably the most famous ruler of Deheubarth.

    Anyway - National Library have excellent archives of the Pembrokeshire historical society publications. Here's a link:

    http://welshjournals.llgc.org.uk/browse/listissues/llgc-id:1041698

    Well worth browsing.

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  • 83. At 3:27pm on 24 Oct 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    Dewi #82
    Hard evidence before 1100 - there's plenty.
    You are of course right. - Manuscripts still exist from the 6th & 7th century - I was thinking of an earlier period.

    Its worth mentioning here The county of Pembrokeshire was founded as a county palatine in 1138 with Gilbert de Clare as the first Earl of Pembroke.
    At that time the split between the English speaking South and the Welsh speaking North was noted.
    This is only 38 years after Wizo and 70 years after the Norman Invasion.

    Thanks for the link.

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  • 84. At 4:37pm on 24 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    77 and 78

    After claiming that you have no interesr in Welsh history, you have an awful lot to say about it...!

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  • 85. At 4:50pm on 24 Oct 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    Dewi your #80
    You comment; Cornish tin mining industry (which IIRC post dated Wessex)

    This extract from the Trevithick society may be of interest.
    http://www.trevithick-society.org.uk/industry/cornish_history.htm

    Metal mining in Cornwall, and Penwith in particular, has a long history. The first bronze users in Britain were the Beaker People, who arrived in Britain from Europe sometime around 2300 B C. The alluvial tin deposits of Cornwall were discovered shortly after this, and due to it's strategic importance as a constituent of bronze, an active trade in tin began with the bronze-using civilizations of the Mediterranean. Trade was also established with the bronze-smiths in Ireland, and Irish gold passed through Cornwall on its way to Europe.

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  • 86. At 5:21pm on 24 Oct 2009, mapex55 wrote:

    Message 84....

    I cannot speak for Stonemason; but for myself, I gave no such indication of an interest in the history of this region, I did lay out a potential scenario for what possibly occurred, to counter the fanciful ideas being promulgated that the region was somehow seen to have been a nice pleasant, and settled place in which the original inhabitants all sat around making wonderful laws, and enjoying a marvellously constructed cultural society.

    That is as far as my 'interest' goes.

    But if you are so concerned about what people have to say, as with the same request for you to engage in many other ongoing debates, and discussions, which you never do, (wonder why, mental blockage, lack of readily available personal resources, or knowledge, maybe?) why not come back with tad more than your perpetually irritating one liners?

    The word is 'engage', but if you are not prepared to, or find it beyond your wit, then why not slope off somewhere else, and annoy a different blog community, for a change?



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  • 87. At 8:14pm on 24 Oct 2009, John Henry wrote:


    via a dongle in the wilds of Lancashire.

    Mapexx, I admit to a lifetime interest in the History of Britain, FiDafydd misunderstands historical context, the essence is to discern the truth and realise, it is by definition, in the past, and cannot be changed; it can be interpreted by the unscrupulous for their own ingenuity, that would be the untruth, as demonstrated by the Nationalists amongst us.

    In Gwynedd, whatever time period you choose, the little people were abused by their "betters", just as they were in Dorset, or Fife, or Down, and their "betters", they were either ephemeral foes or the best of friends, generally the best of friends because there is more profit when not at war.

    In Wales of the 21st century, there are lies, damned lies, and Plaid fantasies, there are also the gullible who believe in fairies.


    Signing off, a little drop of Union glue in defence against Nationalist solvent.


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  • 88. At 02:09am on 25 Oct 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

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