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Throwing down the gauntlet

Betsan Powys | 20:43 UK time, Friday, 7 August 2009

What was that I wrote earlier? "I'm yet to see an AM or MP competing on stage."

I gather that the Rural Affairs Minister Elin Jones is competing tonight with ABC, the choir from Aberystwyth.

Congratulations on a Bala first Minister but given I'm the opposition, here's hoping it's the only first you'll be getting tonight!


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  • 1. At 9:40pm on 07 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    Oh!, Come on Betsan. there's a whole gaggle of 'em, who have been 'performing' for the last ten years on the political stage in Cardiff.

    You couldn't have missed their acting and other all singing, dancing, and posing performances. Surely not?

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  • 2. At 10:13pm on 07 Aug 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    are you referring to the Rhodri State Circus? That great festering, parasitic dung heap on the bay? That great citadel of the Language Enforcers, of Rhodri and Carwyn's version of Labour..Llafur?...Isn't it!!!?

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  • 3. At 11:33pm on 07 Aug 2009, LyndonApGwynfryn wrote:

    Don't you people ever get bored? Have you devoted your entire lives to slagging off devolution?

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  • 4. At 00:19am on 08 Aug 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    I dunno Betsan - maybe I'm a bit old fashioned but the post-modernist approach left me a bit cold tonight - saw you on the tele mind!

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  • 5. At 08:36am on 08 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 3....


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  • 6. At 09:02am on 08 Aug 2009, dai7900 wrote:

    Re 5: I find that rather sad.

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  • 7. At 09:06am on 08 Aug 2009, Negrin wrote:

    Who won then?

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  • 8. At 09:41am on 08 Aug 2009, Igotitallwrongsorry wrote:

    7. Who Cares?. Bit like two bald men fighting over a comb!!!.

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  • 9. At 09:49am on 08 Aug 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    Whi won?- Betsan's lot - there's a clip above.

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  • 10. At 11:17am on 08 Aug 2009, Lyn David Thomas wrote:

    Once again Jack_Wilkinson goes well over the top, is there any need for such language, it doesn't add anything to the debate, pathetic really. And what language enforcers?

    Great to see coverage of the Eisteddfod, great performance too, thanks for the clip Dewi_H

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  • 11. At 11:49am on 08 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:


    You must have been hibernating when the quango was created Lyn_Thomas.

    When Jack Wilkinson writes of the language enforcers, it would be the Welsh Language Board, not even you with such an extensive knowledge of the workings of Cardiff Bay and its quangos can deny its enforcement rule.

    I would guess Edward Longshanks caused less turmoil and animosity in Wales than Meri Huws Chair of the Welsh Language Board, and chums of course.

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  • 12. At 11:57am on 08 Aug 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    Crikey Stoney who has Meri hung drawn and quaretered and placed his head on a spike in Shrewsbury? Don't you think your comparison is a little over the top!!!

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  • 13. At 1:59pm on 08 Aug 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    My brother in this bunch who won the Folk Song group!!!

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  • 14. At 2:01pm on 08 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    If you don't care about Betsan's blog, why comment in the first place?

    Another day, another set of rants. Is this a case of the "Tyranny of the Six Thousand" versus the "Sad Seven"

    Meanwhile, the rest of Wales gets on with life.

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  • 15. At 3:28pm on 08 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:


    ..... where you wrote "Tyranny of the Six Thousand".

    So you admit that your minority of 6000 is indeed a "Tyranny", if I am not mistaken.

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  • 16. At 8:45pm on 08 Aug 2009, Lyn David Thomas wrote:

    Stonemason do you have no sense of proportion – a bloody invasion against a body that promotes language schemes

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  • 17. At 10:10pm on 08 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:


    You wrote .............. promotes language schemes.

    That should read ..... polices language schemes to be correct.

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  • 18. At 01:27am on 09 Aug 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "policies language schemes" - but doesn't hang draw and quarter people?

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  • 19. At 07:25am on 09 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:


    I'm still thinking about your last.

    Is a medieval execution kinder than a Nationalist "balkanisation" policy.

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  • 20. At 09:36am on 09 Aug 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    Hmmm - very broadly this is what Edward did:

    Conquered Wales and slaughtered and imprisoned most of the Royal House.

    Actually invented hanging, drawing and quartering to see off Llywelyn's brother Dafydd (a former collaborator)

    Built castles and planted English people in our major towns.

    I quoute from Wiki

    "The most precious religious relic in Gwynedd, the fragment of the True Cross known as Cross of Neith, was paraded through London in May of 1285 in a solemn procession on foot led by the king, the queen, the archbishop of Canterbury and fourteen bishops, and the magnates of the realm. Edward was thereby appropriating the historical and religious regalia of the house of Gwynedd and placarding to the world the extinction of its dynasty and the annexation of the principality to his Crown. Commenting on this a contemporary chronicler is said to have declared "and then all Wales was cast to the ground.""

    If Ms Huws is reading better get weaving Meri if you want to match that!!

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  • 21. At 10:17am on 09 Aug 2009, Lyn David Thomas wrote:

    So you have to think about it, mass murder and subjugation by a brutal king vs some regulations for nationalised/state institutions and voluntary language schemes... get some prospective!

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  • 22. At 10:46am on 09 Aug 2009, nomorepowers wrote:

    No. 21

    Voluntary language schemes ?

    I wonder what the CBI in Wales think of your prospective?

    Also the tongue police have recently visited every Local Authority in Wales INSTRUCTING them to promote and use the language more ...... or else!!!.

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  • 23. At 10:52am on 09 Aug 2009, Lyn David Thomas wrote:

    You note that I made the distinction between local authorities who have a duty to provide access to services and communication with people in the language of choice, given that there are two languages in use daily in Wales that are indiginous.

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  • 24. At 11:18am on 09 Aug 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    Technically Lyn I suggest that only one of those languages is indiginous - if I understand the word correctly. (Not that that makes it any more or less legitimate of course...)

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  • 25. At 11:21am on 09 Aug 2009, Notonationalism wrote:

    The tongue police at Estyn can also order inspections in schools where incidental Welsh is not used on a regular basis by teachers (whatever the subject). To say that language schemes in Wales are 'voluntary' is just plain dishonest.

    We taxpayers are funding these oppressive language policies and, when the new Welsh Language Act is introduced, we shall see how many businesses leave Wales.

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  • 26. At 11:22am on 09 Aug 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    And ~I can't spell indigenous.

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  • 27. At 11:29am on 09 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:


    Hanging, drawing and quartering was first used against William Maurice, who was convicted of piracy in 1241. This would make Henry III the first practitioner. Wiki and elsewhere.

    Whereas you wrote "Actually invented hanging, drawing and quartering to see off Llywelyn's brother Dafydd.

    If your comment above is so inaccurate, is anything else to be believed ?

    Your Built castles and planted English people in our major towns., castles is correct but which major towns would these be ?

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  • 28. At 11:50am on 09 Aug 2009, Notonationalism wrote:

    Dewi H

    It depends how far you want to go back. Ultimately, it could be argued that no language or human being is indigenous (or autochtonous) and that we should all just try to get on with each other. How many people in Wales can claim to be purely Celtic? Most of us will be a mix of Celtic, Saxon, Roman, Norman and whatever else. It so happens that with migration and internationalisation, English has become the main language of Wales.

    As we all, I hope, know, claims of superior right on the grounds of 'ethnic belonging' are both dubious and dangerous, but this is a discourse which is again beginning, increasingly often, to rear its ugly head.

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  • 29. At 11:57am on 09 Aug 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    Some dispute on that Map - Maurice is the first claimed but Dafydd is the first verified. Happy to be proven wrong but you won't be able to. Towns of Caernarfon, Conwy were planted with settlers for instance.

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  • 30. At 12:13pm on 09 Aug 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    To 28

    Nowt to do with importance or any idea of superiority - just that i

    ndigenous as I understand it means "native to" or "evolved in" - Welsh developed and evolved as Welsh in this country whilst English didn't.
    I agree with all of your sentiments expressed.

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  • 31. At 12:16pm on 09 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 29...

    What message are you responding to?

    No.1 is my only contribution. As I am not particularly interested in anything beyond about 1900, I refrain from commenting on Welsh historical matters.

    I lived in the 20th, and now I live in the 21st century, what went on more than a century ago is of no concern to me, or to the Wales in which I reside.

    If you are attempting to adjoin my ID, on this blog, with that of someone else, then you are completely in error, as I post messages solely under my own ID.

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  • 32. At 12:17pm on 09 Aug 2009, Dewi_H wrote:,_drawing_and_quartering

    Back to quartering etc - a wonderful subject for a Sunday lunchtime. That's a Wiki list of all such executed. Quite a noble and select bunch.

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  • 33. At 12:31pm on 09 Aug 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    Sorry Map - I meant Stoney.

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  • 34. At 2:03pm on 09 Aug 2009, nomorepowers wrote:


    No comment on the CBI Wales then.

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  • 35. At 2:41pm on 09 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:


    ..... claimed or verified.

    A poor repost, the black swan did not exist until it was discovered during exploration, or did it ?

    Of course it did, you wrote our major towns, what exactly do you mean by "major" ?

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  • 36. At 5:46pm on 09 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 33... Apo accepted.

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  • 37. At 6:14pm on 09 Aug 2009, Trechu wrote:

    Only someone who has recently received a severe rap on the bonce from a large chunk of stone(or maybe a Stone-age club?) could possibly compare the exploits of an unpleasant character like Edward 1st with the Welsh Language Board.

    To then accuse others of making mistakes about when the charming British method of execution(hung,drawn and Quartered)was actually first enacted shows at the very least an unusually inverted logic.

    I feel sure the 82% of people in Wales who are proud of the Welsh Language will treat these comments with the contempt, disbelief and disdain they deserve.

    Is it any wonder that those with your views are a rapidly diminishing minority.

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  • 38. At 6:40pm on 09 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:


    What I originally wrote at #11 was .....

    I would guess Edward Longshanks caused less turmoil and animosity in Wales than Meri Huws Chair of the Welsh Language Board, and chums of course.

    What your partner in crime wrote was untrue, it was corrected at #27 and #35 ..

    This particular thread began at #10 when Lyn_Thomas when he asked the question ....

    And what language enforcers?

    It has nothing to do with the Welsh language, an irrelevant sideshow, and all to do with Plaid Cymru, separatists.

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  • 39. At 7:55pm on 09 Aug 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    What is wrong with these nationalist types? They mawkishly bring up ancient events as if they happened yesterday, its quite sad really.
    In fairness, I'm part Irish, and have spent a great deal of time in Dublin, don't mention history!! Its amazing the sense of grievance against the Welsh archers who accompanied Norman knights in the Irish wars. I should imagine the Scots have a similar grievance against those same archers?
    Just wondering nats, who do you hate the most? Romans, Saxons, Viking, Flemmings, Normans et cetera?

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  • 40. At 8:47pm on 09 Aug 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 39

    I go to the Eisteddfod for a week of culture and intelligent conversation and debate, and I come back to the same petty nastiness that was here before the joy that was Bala.


    It's quite clear that it is you who has a problem with hatred, and you probably need help.

    WestWales, somewhere, claims that there is no hatred of the language in all these messages. Well, perhaps he is genuine. However, the vitriol I've read today is quite clearly a manifestation of that hatred.

    It is so very pathetic and sad. Especially after this last wonderful week.

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  • 41. At 8:49pm on 09 Aug 2009, Lyn David Thomas wrote:

    Edward I was raised by Stonemason. Personally I think most of the comments by the rabid anti Welsh posters here are just wind ups, I know that Noah was just here for that purpose.

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  • 42. At 9:07pm on 09 Aug 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 40

    40 was written by me - FiDafydd - and I have no idea why I was called 'you'!

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  • 43. At 9:13pm on 09 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    I just cannot see why the greatness of Edward I is not cherished, I cannot remember which, but law he created remains on the statute books to this day. A person vilified by the Nationalists amongst us has been responsible for a great deal of good to the little people of Britain, including Wales.

    A very sad state of affairs.

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  • 44. At 9:34pm on 09 Aug 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 43

    It's strange how when Welsh nationalists talk of history, British nationalists like Stonemason berates us for irrelevance and living in the past, but it seems he now wants to start a fan club for Edward I!!

    It's still FiDafydd by the way!!!

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  • 45. At 10:02pm on 09 Aug 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    Let's try and get one thing straight, whatever the rights and wrongs of Empire, all Britons share an equal guilt, or maybe pride?
    It seems quite amazing that Welsh nationalists, would seek a separation from their fellow Brits.
    Yet, are keen to join up with the Spanish Conquistadors, and their French, German, Dutch, Belgian and Portuguese equivalents, not to mention Scandinavian Vikings.
    As an English speaking English bloke, with Welsh, Irish and English ancestry, I do find it all kinda sad, trust me, you could have worse neighbours than the English.
    Have you ever checked the phone directories in the England you despise so much? Notice how many Welsh names there are? I just hope they never feel as uneasy me, in Rhodri's version of Wales?

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  • 46. At 10:12pm on 09 Aug 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "What your partner in crime wrote was untrue, it was corrected at #27 and #35"

    Not that I'm particularly bothered but it is not untrue - you refer to an earlier execution of a pirate which is only supported by one document whereas Dafydd's is well documented.

    Btw Caernarfon and Conwy were two of our biggest towns back in those days.

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  • 47. At 11:14pm on 09 Aug 2009, nomorepowers wrote:

    Jack on behalf of decent welsh folk may I take this opportunity to apologise for the inexcusable way a few of the inward looking nationalists have made you feel in Wales.

    When entering Wales you will have noticed the welcome signs. I sometimes wonder what these insular people truly believe should be put on the signs. In a NATS Wales I don't think it would be a welcome sign for our English friends.

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  • 48. At 11:47pm on 09 Aug 2009, Notonationalism wrote:

    As an English-speaking Welsh person of English, Irish and Welsh descent, I, too, feel uneasy, Jack. Those of us who refuse to embrace the current nationalist orthodoxy must stick together in these unpleasant times.

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  • 49. At 11:57pm on 09 Aug 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 47


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  • 50. At 09:10am on 10 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    #44 FiDafydd wrote:

    ......... Stonemason ........... wants to start a fan club for Edward I.

    The fan club started back into 13th century, when Edward led a force of 15,500, of whom 9,000 were Welshmen, against Llywelyn ap Gruffudd.

    Llewelyn's brother Dafydd, after a failing to assassinate Llywelyn, also became best mates with long shanks. Not a lot has changed.

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  • 51. At 09:49am on 10 Aug 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    40.Your getting manic FiFi perhaps it is 'You' who needs help not Jack.
    Who cares where you've been? Reprogramming no doubt?

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  • 52. At 4:22pm on 10 Aug 2009, rhywun-arall wrote:

    Hilarious indeed FiDafydd! It's amusing how the rusty old blowhorns of the British Empire who feebly toot their vintage propaganda into this blog love to reduce the modern ethos of Welsh nationalism to something antique; a sixteen hundred year old grudge.

    Modern Welsh nationalism really doesn't need to make any references to Hengest & Horsa or Edward Longshanks to make the democratic virtues of Welsh political self-determination known, nor does it need to be referenced when explaining the radical decentralised socialist vision of Plaid Cymru policy which could revitalise Wales like no other political agenda. If Edward I does ever do get mentioned however, it should be to underline the grotesquely bloodstained illigitimacy of the English claim on Wales and that our nation was ever run by or from England.

    If the Welsh nationalists don't mention Edward Longshanks, could the British nationalists like TheStonemason please give it up too, and Jack_Wilkingson should really acknowledge that the British Empire was hardly run from Machynlleth!

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  • 53. At 4:47pm on 10 Aug 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "Llewelyn's brother Dafydd, after a failing to assassinate Llywelyn, also became best mates with long shanks. Not a lot has changed."

    A friendship made in heaven eh Stoney....We always thought it would never last......

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  • 54. At 5:04pm on 10 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    A breath of fresh air, a separatist who might explain .....

    ..... the radical decentralised socialist vision of Plaid Cymru policy .

    I have been asking what a "radical decentralised socialist vision" means, in simple language for a stonemason, for over 2 years without a whisper of a reply. Pray continue.

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  • 55. At 5:39pm on 10 Aug 2009, Trechu wrote:

    48 By all means stick together, should be able to fit all of you into the average sized family tent.

    50 There have always been quislings and collaborators, thankfully in the minority.

    51 I am sure all forms of culture are anathema to such as you.

    As I stated earlier the more you guys post the more people will see what you are truly about and that can only be to the good as far as I am concerned.

    I am not necessarily a fan of the conspiracy theory but when I look at the good work you are doing for devolution I cant help wondering if you are not agent provocateurs deliberately undermining the anti Devolution cause?

    Either way as I previously said do keep up the good work!

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  • 56. At 6:20pm on 10 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:

    All these remarks about the glory that was Edward I are a bit ironic.

    He was responsible for overseeing a 'language police' that opressed English speakers and forced them to use French and / or Latin in official matters.

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  • 57. At 6:47pm on 10 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    No word then from the separatist sage at #52.

    No explanation as to the meaning of ..... the radical decentralised socialist vision of Plaid Cymru policy.

    Could it be that "rhywun-arall" at #52 only has the words, no meaning ..... shame !

    Is there no one who can help ?

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  • 58. At 7:09pm on 10 Aug 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    52.Autumn term begins with a new batch of indoctrined clones. But if you are 'YOU' Fi Fi who is Someone Else? Is he a figment of your imagination? As for YOUR nation Rhywun-Arall are you talking about those sheep covered mountains in y gogledd again? Quite frankly nobody wanted them or their people so why don't you just get over it.
    54.Plaids 'radical decentralised socialist vision' - the return of the workhouse?

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  • 59. At 7:46pm on 10 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    Well #58, I thought an explanation from a Plaid insider would have been forthcoming, it is a disappointment.

    To my knowledge there is no Plaid document that describes their economic model, not a whisper, a Plaid acolyte could have opened the doors to understanding this political sect.

    Could you be right I wonder, a workhouse ?

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  • 60. At 7:56pm on 10 Aug 2009, Igotitallwrongsorry wrote:

    52/55. You seem to think that the Jacks/Stoney's and others who voice their concerns about curent policy (WLB) and King Rhodri's (Nationalist/Socialist) government's policy regarding welsh language are a small and irrelevant group are way off the mark. Beneath the surface of answering phone opinion surveys etc in the way that is expected of them,i.e supporting further welsh language where it aint wanted,there is unremmiting oposition to such policies,and all that is needed is honesty and cost analysis to blow it out of water. Spent weekend playing tennis with other vets,three welsh and one english,all of whom have had good careers etc. Discussion gets around to wars/devolution/welsh language and absolutely unanimous that its the biggest "racket",since Al Capone ran one in Chicago in 1920's. We have barely 10% of south eastern wales who can speak it and of remaining 90% they have managed to run their lives/educate their children in english only and are perfectly happy that that position remains. We then have the welsh language fanatics who can do themselves and families a great deal of good by shoving the LANGUAGE down our throats with jobs/jobs/placements on WLB etc etc. For goodness sake you've got S4C for your minority interests paid for main by english language speakers so you should be very happy,but nothing will satisfied you lot until you've got all jabbering in welsh. Just leave us alone and you can keep S4C (watched by 5 people),otherwise we'll campaign to turn it into a pay for view channel (like SKY) and let you pay for it directly!!!.

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  • 61. At 8:38pm on 10 Aug 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    Message 52.
    Rhywun, your overblown, old fashioned style of writing, points to a highly strung old drama queen. Your post was nothing but a load of needful whimsy, but I'm gonna help you, you need help, think of me as a kindly carer.
    Disappointment when a long cherished dream goes down the pan, can devastate the psyche of a dreamer..
    The grim facts about recent election results, shows that where the NO to devolution vote was high Labour's vote share is in free fall.
    It was that bad in east Wales, UKIP beat Labour into third place in three constituencies, not even devolution is safe.

    M 54,
    same tired Plaid rhetoric as M 52, but in fairness, they can't really make a point, there's no good news to point out

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  • 62. At 8:47pm on 10 Aug 2009, rhywun-arall wrote:

    No thegnatswatter, I'm not FiDafydd; I assure you I am someone else. I'm from West Glamorgan and the nation I refer to is that of the people who have been 'Welsh' since the English arrived and started referring to the natives as 'foreigners.'

    I can't really offer you an official explanation Stonemason; I'm not even a card-carrying Plaid member let alone privy to the decisions of the party's policy-making NEC. Why don't you simply look up some literature on the emergence of Plaid as a party? The ideology is simple enough to afford anyone a general idea, which I trust Plaid's NEC are keen to follow in individual matters of policy. I'm a relatively recent Anglo-Welsh proselyte to the Plaid Cymru cause, and come to it largely because of the potential of this aspect of its policy as a Libertarian Socialist and as someone who respected Plaid's vociferous stance against the wars in Afganistan & Iraq and who sees great merit in the many arguments for Welsh (or any nation or region's) political self-determination.

    Re #60 - I can well imagine the old colonial blowhorns sound loud and clear in the health & racquet clubs of Gwent. Thankfully however, Wales grows more immune to imperial/unionist inculcation, and enjoys a growing confidence in the concept of attaining their political liberty.

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  • 63. At 9:10pm on 10 Aug 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    Thankfully however, Wales grows more immune to imperial/unionist inculcation, and enjoys a growing confidence in the concept of attaining their political liberty.

    Drama queen, would you please explain that dross? It's a complete contradiction to reality.

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  • 64. At 9:20pm on 10 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:


    There is nothing concrete to base an hypothesis upon, you just go round and round in every decreasing circles, I'm guessing there is no definitive description of Plaids economic model, except possibly the cooperative movement of Robert Owen.

    What a disappointment, not having the answer.

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  • 65. At 9:52pm on 10 Aug 2009, dai7900 wrote:

    Re 45 I can't think of any neighbours worse than the English....drunk,fat,often racist,ill-educated....and they are moving to Wales to escape the mess they have made in their own country.When they arrive here they have the cheek to tell us how to run our own country

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  • 66. At 10:08pm on 10 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 65...

    I suppose you have a little list of those you refer to?

    For certain, I know none who come on here who are 'English', so unless you are capable of backing that statement up, I suggest you keep a civil hand on your keyboard.

    Those on here who are decrying what is happeneing here in Wales, are all Welsh, either born here, or to Welsh parents.

    AS far as I am aware, I have heard little on this blog that comes from the sort of English you describe, in fact I have heard nothing form any actual English, be they as described, or thoroughly decent normal people.

    You may know of one, of either sort, if so, please do tell.

    By the way, Jack is Welsh, but still thinks Monmouthshire should be English; no accounting for some people is there?

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  • 67. At 10:23pm on 10 Aug 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    Well done clever you! That must be the daftest post ever posted? There are no obese fat chavs wondering about in The Valleys, Merthyr, Cardiff and Swansea, then?
    Shall we compare education standards within the UK, and see where Wales stands?
    Just to repeat, Dai7900, excelled even Rhywun, in posting sheer nonsense.

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  • 68. At 10:28pm on 10 Aug 2009, Lyn David Thomas wrote:

    dai7900 there is no place here for that sort of racist comment. We have enough anti Welsh attitudes from people here without you being anti English.

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  • 69. At 00:08am on 11 Aug 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    Please Tomos, don't you start telling me what I consider to be my birthright, I was born in 1965, in a town that advertised Newport as.....'Newport is an English town on the banks of the river Usk'. The 'Newport directory' can be viewed on request in Newport central library, tomos, if you ever have the time? Check it out.

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  • 70. At 07:03am on 11 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:


    What a disappointment to Plaid Cymru, outed, no economic model to support their, dare I use FiDafydd's rabid, vision of their future.

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  • 71. At 08:04am on 11 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    nmessage 69....

    Go on Jackie Boy You know you're one of us, Monmouthshire was in a situtation of ambiguity, and now it's been placed in Wales.
    No problems as I see it, as under democracy it can be sent back to where it was, if enough want it.

    Although you feel more English than Welsh, there are many who feel the opposite, so fundamentally it could be a Mexican stand off should it come to a vote for preference.

    That said, keep up with the other stuiff, the Monmouthshire matter can be resolved, once we win this current battle. No use fighting on two fronts, all that does is give a wider gap for the Nat's to sneak through.

    I have been keeping out of the Monmouthshire debate, deliberately, as I think it a flawed argument, and the current matter is far more important.

    You cannot expect to gain your own objective, if you allow the full call for independence to forge ahead, My priority is to stop this motion in it's tracks.

    We can worry about the status of Mon, after we put the other matter to bed for once and for all.

    This is why that other person said our arguments are doing a good job for devolution, because we are seen to be fightinmg on more than one front.

    Lay off the Mon debate, and stick with the major problem.

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  • 72. At 08:21am on 11 Aug 2009, penddu wrote:

    69 The fact that some business directctory (probably written by an Englishman) proclaimed Newport to be English, does not make it so. I am not going to repeat all of the facts again, other than to say that Monmouthshire has had a confused history, but the confusion has now been resolved.

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  • 73. At 08:32am on 11 Aug 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    70. 'Wales laid to waste for 50 yrs ' comes to mind.

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  • 74. At 08:36am on 11 Aug 2009, penddu wrote:

    73 As opposed to the wastelands created by successive Labour and Conservatove governments in Westminster then....

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  • 75. At 08:48am on 11 Aug 2009, Igotitallwrongsorry wrote:

    72.Let us say that there is a small majority in wales for more powers down Bay of Irrelevance,however there was substantial vote against in Monmouthshire,particularly those areas nearest border with england. If those people wished to be ruled by parliament,with progressive policies for empowering individuals to take more responsibility for their lives,and also solving the growing "underclass" problem by making them work/restricting benefits for numbers of children etc. If the Monmouthshire people wished to get away from the Nationalist/Socialist "dead hand" then would you deny them that right,providing that there was overwhelming support for rejoining with an economic powerhouse,i.e. England!!!.62.You type of people never get it do you. The people I was referring to we 60+,had very good careers with children in upper professions and all english only speakers raised in wales. We've all had a "stomachfull" of welsh language fanatics, Plaid Cymru (who are my mortal enemy) in mickey mouse government with their soul mate i.e King Rhodri 11 who is confirming the decision by Anthony Blair PM not to give him a "bag carriers" job in 1997,or thereafter the wisest decision he made. If wales ever got independance the romanians/bulgarians would be sending lorries with food/clothing etc for its population.

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  • 76. At 09:22am on 11 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    The gauntlet that the visionaries of Plaid have decided not to take up, could it be the Achilles heel of our separatist opponents, could it be a fact that the future with Plaid is increasingly blurred. Is there nobody out there who is able to give a definitive explanation of the radical decentralised socialist vision of Plaid Cymru, we need to know, or is it definitive evidence of Plaid "Smoke and Mirrors" ?

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  • 77. At 10:26am on 11 Aug 2009, Notonationalism wrote:


    I don't believe that there is a small majority in favour of more powers. The fact that only a small number of people turned up to the All Wales Convention events suggests that the people of Wales were not exactly battering down the door to demand more powers for King Rhodri (who is clearly in the altogether). The only reliable poll is a referendum - and even then we can't rely on the despots down the Bay to frame the question without slanting it for their own purposes.

    We are in the majority and have the power to stop the nationalists in all political parties condemning Wales to poverty and oblivion.

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  • 78. At 10:38am on 11 Aug 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    76. You've certainly 'thrown down the gauntlet' Stoney but no takers.
    looks as if you've found the soft spot. No fiscal policy?

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  • 79. At 11:14am on 11 Aug 2009, Ian wrote:

    I have to say that it was a fantastic Eisteddfod. My family stayed on the 'maes carafan' all week and the organisation was second to none. It takes some professionalism to create a campsite for 830 plots for just a week.
    I was also impressed with the enthusiasm of the Ebbw Vale stand for next year. With the demand for Welsh medium education increasing steadily in the South East, the Gwent Councils are waking up to the challenge and a successful event next year will be a huge boost.

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  • 80. At 11:38am on 11 Aug 2009, Notonationalism wrote:

    Perhaps Plaid's economic model is simply to have more eisteddfods. I suppose that would end druid unemployment, at least. As for the Gwent Councils, they seem to be comporting themselves rather like the Vichy regime in France. This could explain why they are so overwhelmingly unpopular with the people.

    I hear Rhodri says he's running Wales from his caravan in Mwnt and that he has his mobile phone with him. I hope his signal is better than mine was when I stayed there last week.

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  • 81. At 11:52am on 11 Aug 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 80

    As I said, how do you debate with people who's crass and offensive stupidity makes them say things like "rather like the Vichy regime in France"?

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  • 82. At 11:55am on 11 Aug 2009, Ian wrote:

    The Gwent Councils are going through the same savage cuts that all Welsh Councils are facing, partly due to the Barnett squeeze and also the payback from bailing out the banks.
    The Eisteddfod is useful for the local economy, in that it gives SME'e in the area the opportunity to raise their profile. It also brings communities together, particularly in reaching fundraising targets and the local schools preparing for competitions.
    I can only see next year's event as a positive opportunity for the south east-particularly the Heads of the Valleys communities. I hope that you are able to give your support, as I know that the local organisers would welcome it.

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  • 83. At 12:35pm on 11 Aug 2009, Notonationalism wrote:


    In the nationalist lexicon, does 'opposing view' translate as 'stupid'?


    Perhaps, the Government should have let the entire banking system collapse. I wonder what would have happened to your fellow nationalists in Scotland if the the Royal Bank of Scotland had been allowed to go under?

    The Barnett formula gives us £9.1 billion more than we pay in to the UK treasury. It might be the case that we would get more under a needs-based system but we cannot, in truth, claim that we are being treated unfairly compared with England (though it must be admitted that Scotland receives a disproportionately large share).

    I used to attend the odd eisteddfod but now that these events have become nationalist rallies (a la Nuremburg - just thought I'd get that in for Fi-Daf), possibly with the exception of Llangollen, I shall not be supporting the Ebbw Vale event.

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  • 84. At 1:03pm on 11 Aug 2009, Ian wrote:

    I was not making an issue of what the London Government did, but was explaining why Councils in Wales are currently facing such a vicious financial squeeze. The issue with the Barnett block is that not only does it not match a needs based formula, but also reduces proportionally every year.
    I would rather the British Government acted than sat on their hands in terms of the banking crisis, but it is a pity that they didn't act when the banks were creating this mess in the first place. Blair actually criticised the FSA for being too stringent, before he stood down.

    I would welcome a Barnett formula that took into account the regions of England, many of whom deserve greater recogntion in terms of funding.

    I'm afraid that I do not recognise your description of the Eisteddfod, as all the Unionist parties are very well represented and active on the Maes. Being supportive of the Welsh language is not a narrow concept. It supports the European model of Wales being a bilingual nation.

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  • 85. At 1:31pm on 11 Aug 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    81. Throwing your toys out of the pram again FiFi? Typical nasty little Nat calling 'foul' when you can't have your own way. Want to take your
    bat and ball home?

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  • 86. At 1:38pm on 11 Aug 2009, Notonationalism wrote:

    'London Government' is a characteristically nationalistic description of the British Parliament. Perhaps we should call WAG the Cardiff Government. London government, I would have thought, is the London Assembly led by Boris Johnson.

    I agree that the Government should have acted sooner to prevent the banking crisis.

    The Conservative and Labour Parties in Wales can no longer be described as unionist. If coverage of the event is to be believed, the Eisteddfod is as much about politics as the language. Why else would establishment figures like Archbishop Barry Morgan be given a top slot at the Eisteddfod to promote primary law-making powers for an autonomous Welsh Parliament? Ditto Dafydd Wigley. Was any opposition expressed? I think not.

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  • 87. At 2:27pm on 11 Aug 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 88. At 4:35pm on 11 Aug 2009, Ian wrote:

    Llais Gwynedd were also there, a party almost entirely without vertebrae.

    I apologise for upsetting you with the term London. I use it as I feel the British Parliament is very London-centric, often to the detriment of many parts of England.
    There were politicians at the Eisteddfod opposed to a Welsh Parliament and they very much consider themselves unionist stock. Wanting a Welsh Parliament does not by definition make you a Welsh nationalist. What is wrong with people wanting a Welsh Parliament but not wanting Welsh independence? It's not my position, but is a perfectly reasonable one.

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  • 89. At 6:22pm on 11 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:


    Can you explain why "Llais Gwynedd" (Voice of Gwynedd) is "without vertebrae". As a small regional political party it is bringing democracy to an otherwise pasteurised political scene.

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  • 90. At 6:27pm on 11 Aug 2009, Notonationalism wrote:


    It's true to say that wanting a Welsh Parliament doesn't necessarily make one a Welsh nationalist. However, a Welsh parliament would certainly create a further rift between us and the other parts of the UK. Separation would, most likely, result in an even more strident form of nationalism than we have already. I would, personally, be distressed by this since I don't feel that we (that is, the majority of us) are so extraordinarily different from other people in the rest of the UK.

    As regards the Eisteddfod, the problem is that the marriage between politics and culture in Wales has become uncomfortably and dangerously symbiotic; the Eisteddfod, unfortunately, exemplifies that. I find it deeply disturbing that politicians are getting jolly together over the notion of a certain demarcated nationality or cultural identity, which, in many cases, has its roots in romanticism, not reality.

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  • 91. At 8:00pm on 11 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    I have discovered a reference to .....

    decentralised socialist economies, and wonder if this is what radical decentralised socialist vision of Plaid Cymru actually is.

    ..... the two countries are Cuba and Venezuela, Derek Wall of the Green Party of England and Wales pointed me in the right direction. Wall is an associate editor of the left-wing magazine Red Pepper, not bought it recently, well you missed Leanne Wood's, yes our erstwhile regional assembly member contributes.

    So the future that I regularly say is blue, Plaid would prefer something different, a model similar to Cuba or Venezuela it seams, both countries are dictatorships ! This is not a journey for the feint hearted.

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  • 92. At 8:35pm on 11 Aug 2009, penddu wrote:

    91 SM - I am sure that you know as well as I do that Plaid is an unholy coalition of leftwing republicans (eg Lianne Wood) and right-leaning cultural nationalists (eg Dafydd Iwan) and the decentralised socialism rhetoric was invented in the 70s to try and tie these two wings together in the primary cause of Welsh self determination.

    One day these two wings will split into separate parties (As will Welsh Labour and Welsh Conservatives - the LDs will split around 6 ways....)

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  • 93. At 8:59pm on 11 Aug 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 94. At 9:20pm on 11 Aug 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    I very much doubt the Conservative and Unionist party will split along nationalist lines. Ignore Melding and Bourne, they know they'll never make it on the Westminster stage, because they lack any kind of charisma.
    There's absolutely no way that the folk of east Wales want separation from our often English kin folk.
    I know absolutely, that the Conservatives of Newport and Monmouthshire, would never go along with such nonsense.
    So don't pay Melding any heed whatsoever, listen to the Welsh Conservative MPs, any kind of devolution will eventually rip our Britain apart.

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  • 95. At 9:39pm on 11 Aug 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "Can you explain why "Llais Gwynedd" (Voice of Gwynedd) is "without vertebrae". "

    Are you a fan Stoney?

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  • 96. At 10:10pm on 11 Aug 2009, Ian wrote:

    They got elected on the single issue of small rural schools and they have now walked away from having any say on their future, by pulling out of the Council's all party group working to resolve the issue. What is the point getting elected to have a say and then choosing not to affect the final result?
    There is a lack of constructive opposition on Gwynedd Council, and this shower have offered nothing constructive whatsoever.

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  • 97. At 10:19pm on 11 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:


    Of democracy, yes.

    Do you intend to explain on behalf of ianapharri the lack of backbone ?

    One particular Councillor, Gwilym Euros Roberts, certainly has the interests of rural communities at heart. I know about some of the others and past performances, their political orientation of Welsh nationalism, Gwynedd regionalism, Cultural conservatism, Centre-right, doesn't seem to be earth shattering. They are of course opposed to Plaid, and Councillor Roberts doesn't come across as a wuss.

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  • 98. At 10:26pm on 11 Aug 2009, Ian wrote:

    I do not see the link between a Welsh Parliament and separation. It would have similar powers to many such inner state parliaments across the globe. Plaid's policy of independance would require the majority of the people of Wales supporting it through a vote. Why be scared of democracy?
    Culture and politics are linked in every democratic nation on the planet, including on language and similar issues. Cultural itentity is not a bad thing in itself. I am at a loss to see anything threatening about the Eisteddfod, with the possible exception of one or two of the portaloos at last week's event. There is a sense of romanticism about the Eisteddfod in terms of made up ceremonies, but it is harmless fun.

    The future is blue in England, but not in Wales. You have never and will never get enough support-sorry.

    There is left and right in every party, but the differences in Plaid are no different to any other.

    Every Welsh Tory MP is against further devolution and most of their AMs are for it. In many ways, they mimic Labour in Wales (with a few honourable exceptions).

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  • 99. At 10:51pm on 11 Aug 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    97 - Llais Gwynedd primarily a language movement - wonderful you sympathise.

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  • 100. At 06:34am on 12 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:


    Llais Gwynedd key policies are .....

    Gwynedd needs
    Stop school closures
    Specialist care in Gwynedd
    Opposes a Spatial Development Strategy
    Stop tourism which has a negative impact
    Create local employment
    Removing restrictions on housing developments
    Enthusiastically supports the Welsh language
    Proposes extra measures to protect Welsh speaking rural communities in Gwynedd

    The Union supports the Welsh language, opposes draconian language legislation.

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  • 101. At 09:51am on 12 Aug 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 102. At 09:59am on 12 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Are you quite sure every current Conservative MP has charisma?

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  • 103. At 10:25am on 12 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    Disappointed of Caerphilly, ..... #92 when you wrote .....

    ....... the decentralised socialism rhetoric was invented in the 70s to try and tie these two wings together in the primary cause of Welsh self determination.

    ..... it means, Plaid has no honest economic philosophy, it is an empty shell, are their voters aware of this?

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  • 104. At 10:42am on 12 Aug 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    Is this moderation or censorship?

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  • 105. At 10:58am on 12 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    One person's perception about a party's philisophy is one thing, actuality is another. I suspect that their economic policies are a great deal more coherent than UKIP's let alone the BNP's.

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  • 106. At 11:00am on 12 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    A business directory in the 1960s says Newport is English. Medieval texts state that England is a part of Wales ripe for the re-taking.

    Both are historic amusements.

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  • 107. At 11:45am on 12 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:


    Until such times that Plaid explain exactly what decentralist socialism is, the electorate can only assume smoke and mirrors, there is no substance.

    If penddu is correct, and I have no reason to disbelieve, when he wrote decentralised socialism rhetoric was invented in the 70s to try and tie these two wings together in the primary cause of Welsh self determination, then .....

    Plaid is living a political and economic lie.

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  • 108. At 12:03pm on 12 Aug 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "Medieval texts state that England is a part of Wales ripe for the re-taking."

    I've always thought that the Thames Valley is the soft underbelly....

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  • 109. At 12:04pm on 12 Aug 2009, Ian wrote:

    Outside the rural schools issue, they are all over the place. They have voted against everything but have not come up with any costed alternatives. Now that they no longer want any involement with the schools plan, they are nothing more than a group of independents with differing views within their own group. For instance, one of them called for 600 Council staff to be sacked to save money! He then chose not to explain who he was referring to or which services he would cut. Perhaps he was referring to Social Care; a service I notice that they 'support' in their manifesto.
    They also skip over the financial pressures put on urban Gywnedd schools by keeping open tiny rural ones.

    On the list you have provided, please define 'tourism that has a negative impact'? Are they intending to cherrypick who visits?

    Create local employment? Great statement but what does it mean?
    Did you know that they are against the establishment of a new prison in Caernarfon creating hundreds of jobs for local people, because the prison was not sited in Blaenau?

    Extra measures for Welsh speaking communities in rural Gwynedd? Yet again, they are driving a wedge between rural and urban Gwynedd. What about the Welsh speaking urban communities where most of the Welsh speakers live?

    The list is endless, as are their empty statements.

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  • 110. At 12:32pm on 12 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    ianapharri, we have to defend the rights of those we oppose in a democracy.

    In your reply at #109 you wrote .....

    What about the Welsh speaking urban communities where most of the Welsh speakers live?

    I would asking "what about the people of Gwynedd, do we discriminate against either rural or urban?"

    I raised the issue of the minority of one elsewhere, it applies here, the one, the minority, if they are ignored, eventually they become oppressed. Have you created the Abyss that is now staring back at you, not personally.

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  • 111. At 12:32pm on 12 Aug 2009, penddu wrote:

    107 All political parties are simply coalitions of opinion, which try to form sizeable grouping to promote a common cause but accepting different opinions. And all policies have to evolve over time to suit changing circumstances.

    In this respect, Plaid is no different than the Labour and Conservative Parties.

    If you want to see what Plaid's economic policies are I suggest you consider the role of Plaid within the One-Wales coalition, which holds the Economy portfolio. You might consider that unemployment has fallen in Wales for the second consecutive month, in direct contrast to the UK figures, and as a direct result of Plaid's React and Proact schemes.

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  • 112. At 12:53pm on 12 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    #111 you are not wriggling off this hook penddu.

    Plaid's political policies cannot be compared to the coalition agreement as the agreement is by definition a compromise between parties.

    You wrote Plaid's React and Proact schemes, I though it was the WAG's React and Proact schemes.

    Have you enlisted with Plaid penddu ?

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  • 113. At 12:59pm on 12 Aug 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 111

    Exactly. I cannot imagine that all members of the Conservative Party are extreme right-wingers; the kind which held sway in the terrible days of Thatcherism and unfettered monetarism. Stonemason longs for those days again, maybe, but I doubt very much that he represents every the beliefs and aspirations of every Tory in this disunited Kingdom.

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  • 114. At 1:41pm on 12 Aug 2009, Ian wrote:

    I agree that there should be no discrimination, which is what the current Gwynedd administration are trying to avoid-despite the best efforts of Llais Gwynedd. The new plan means investing millions into new rural schools, but ones that are sustainable. There is no way of avoiding some closures and Llais Gywnedd know this and walked away from taking any responsibilitby for unavoidable decisions. By doing so, they have passed up on the opportunity to represent the people who elected them.

    I was not aware that the unemploymnet rates in Wales had not gone up for a second month and while welcoming this, Wales is by no means out of the woods yet. The recession will hit a lot of small firms over the coming months and the public sector will be hit very hard in the Spring of next year, to meet the bank bail out squeeze. Jeff Jones in this morning's Western mail was spot on, I regret to say.

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  • 115. At 2:20pm on 12 Aug 2009, penddu wrote:

    112 I have not enlsited with Plaid - they appeal to me on some issues but not on others. But I am willing to give credit where credit is due.

    My politics are generally centre right but am turned off the Conservatives because of their unionist views and their lurking right wing tendencies, and in previous elections I have voted for Labour, Plaid & LDs.

    But I have one 'red-line' issue and that is Welsh self-determination. While there are soothing voices in the Welsh Conservatives such as Glyn Davies and David Melding, they are drowned out by the likes of Davaid Davies and the ghost of John Redwood, and you do nothing to change my mistrust of the Conservatives.

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  • 116. At 2:28pm on 12 Aug 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    111. This One Wales government couldn't even get the React Scheme right.The bumbling incompetance of the minister responsible produced a scheme that contradicted the basic requirements of Jobseekers Allowance that you must be actively seeking employment and must be available for work.So the very people React was meant to help i.e the unemployed had to lose their benefits to go on courses or sign off. If they signed off they were technically no longer unemployed so they did not qualify for React.

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  • 117. At 6:25pm on 12 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Agreed. There is a democratic deficit in Wales when it comes to the centre-right. Like 85-90% of the Welsh population, we support devolution, but despite some brave work by various Tory AMs, it is the arch-unionist minority who have drowned the voices of the majority.

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  • 118. At 7:21pm on 12 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    The democratic deficit in Wales of the 21st century lies with the undemocratic quangos, not the democratic voice of opposition .....

    ..... a minority who have drowned the voices of the majority, in Wales, with you and yours, you must be jesting.

    Could you reach out to the Plaid leadership and request an explanation of their decentralist socialism please.

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  • 119. At 7:41pm on 12 Aug 2009, Notonationalism wrote:


    Since you seem to be living on a different planet to the rest of us, I assume 'Welsh' is a typographical error and you meant to put 'Martian'.

    It's an easy mistake to make.

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  • 120. At 8:19pm on 12 Aug 2009, Ian wrote:

    Plaid is de-centralist in that it believes in passing power down to the level where it is most effective, such as devolution. The party runs on these principles in that the members still set the policies at conference and national council and any member can stand for and be President.

    The strict definition of socialism would probably not match most people's perceptions of what it means. I suggest that many consider socialism to be a fairer re-distribution of wealth in society, through a taxation and welfare system that reduces the gap between haves and have nots. This would be primarily driven by Government. Plaid also believes that public services are best delivered through an accountable and well run public sector, rather than the private sector.

    Now as you know, this is not the dictionary definition of socialism, which is more to do with the state ownership of production and distribution. There are various areas where Plaid members support this, as demonstrated in its opposition to the privatised monopolies that the Tories sold off dirt cheap in the 80s and 90s.

    I hope that this goes some way to explain our political message. I can assure you that there is no hidden agenda, as someone from our NEC would have leaked it by now if there was!

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  • 121. At 9:38pm on 12 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    Nice try .....

    The hyphen did it for me.

    Cuba is a better definition, after research.

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  • 122. At 10:57pm on 12 Aug 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 121

    A new obsession to be paranoid about for the British nationalists it seems: trips to Cuba. But of course, no one takes someone who thinks Plaid are left of Lenin seriously.

    It's a small number of cranks who blog well beyond their number on this site. The real world is far better. The real world is far less strange. The real world is full of Welsh people who know they are members of the Welsh nation. It's also full of English people who recognize that very same fact. You should try the real world, Stonemason. Ask your daughter...

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  • 123. At 11:33pm on 12 Aug 2009, Ian wrote:

    Cuba could certainly be described as a far purer form of socialism than Plaid's. It also happens to follow a rather different approach to government than Plaid would aspire to. However, having been there on my honeymoon, I would very much recommend a visit. It is a stunning place with a real sense of its own history.

    I would particularly suggest a visit to the Revolutionary Museum in Havana, where they have on display a fighter plane used to shoot down US supplied planes in the Bay of Pigs invasion. It's not somewhere you would expect to see a version of a Spitfire, is it?

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  • 124. At 09:07am on 13 Aug 2009, Igotitallwrongsorry wrote:

    123. I always that that CUBA would be a point of reference for NATS as its socialist and likes to annoy its near and very powerful neighbour much as in independant wales would do if it ever had the collective madness to vote PC into power. Its interesting that in the news it seems that the people are voting with their feet,or swimming to get out the "socialist workers paradise" and into the real,albeit economically cruel USA rather than the other way around. Would be same here with mass emigration if ever the NATS got their hand on power and turned us into welsh speaking/workers paradise with media being run on lines of east Germany as was.If i visited Cuba much more intersted in Cigar factories with dusky maidens rolling them..... That would never be allowed by Biffas down the Bay!!

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  • 125. At 09:18am on 13 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:


    The real world is far better than the extreme left wing offering of Plaid.

    The elected members demonstrate exactly where Plaid sits in the political landscape, and while left of Lenin might be a little too far to the left, rubbing shoulders with him would be pretty accurate.

    This real world is full to the brim of people who prefer the "Laissez-faire" politics of John Stuart Mill; most people prefer not to have their lives micro managed by the failed politics of the 20th century.

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  • 126. At 09:55am on 13 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    I live in the world of facts. The support for devolution is a fact, no matter what the Sad Seven say.

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  • 127. At 10:10am on 13 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Which redoubles my point about the democratic deficit. The centre right needs to find a focus in Wales, whether via Plaid of the Conservatives. I am sure JSM would agree; humanity 'as a progressive being' desires 'a higher mode of existence' than the parties offer us today.

    There was a discussion group working on this area a couple of years ago, but they have gone quiet. Perhaps it is time for some Conservative AMs to up their charisma quotient.

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  • 128. At 10:47am on 13 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 126...

    Only a fact in the terms of it being a temporary blip in the body politic of Welsh history....

    Soon to be corrected, and normality returned to those of us who are realistic.

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  • 129. At 11:06am on 13 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    A temporary blip? Time will tell...

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  • 130. At 1:17pm on 13 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 129...

    My point exactly, glad you agree with me.

    Tick Tock, Tick Tock!

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  • 131. At 1:22pm on 13 Aug 2009, Notonationalism wrote:

    But the ruling elite down the Bay has gathered an incestuous network of hangers on around itself, creating new quangos, such as the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and other such taxpayer-funded, unaccountable public sector bodies, to participate actively in the promotion of full law-making powers for the Assembly. It has also created its own propagandist 'think tank', the Institute for Welsh Affairs.
    AMs ride roughshod over the real people they were elected to represent, often taking it for granted that they know what we, the ordinary people of Wales, want. This is not what we expected from devolution and it runs counter to true democratic principles.

    We have an oligarchy here in Wales. This is not devolution.

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  • 132. At 1:40pm on 13 Aug 2009, penddu wrote:

    I believe that it is English subjugation of Wales that will ultimately be shown to be the temporary blip.

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  • 133. At 1:42pm on 13 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:

    ...perhaps, in the greater temporal scheme of things, devolution will be seen as a mere aperitif, with a genuine realignment of responsibilities at both the local and national level. Note responsibilities, rather than powers, as power without responsibility at any level is a charmless being.

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  • 134. At 2:52pm on 13 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    #127 I'm still thinking.

    #132 The Welsh politicians do a very good job subjugating Wales, no help is needed.

    #133 David C. is planning the beginnings of such a realignment of politics; he has coupled less government at the top level cascading responsibilities to the community, a light touch of government.

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  • 135. At 3:12pm on 13 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Exactly, I'm delighted to know that you too believe we need to move from this hodge podge to a proper federal solution.

    Keep that clock tickin'

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  • 136. At 3:46pm on 13 Aug 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 134

    Does this 'light touch of government' from the toff Cameron only prove what I had long suspected: he has no policies, and his only goal is to restore the toffocracy to where he believes is its rightful place?

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  • 137. At 5:09pm on 13 Aug 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 134


    I see that another Tory toff, Daniel Hannan MEP (Marlborough College this time), has come out in support of Palin and other right wing extremist nutters in the States by calling for the abolition of the NHS. Palin has called the NHS 'evil', in her campaign aginst Obama's proposed changes to health care.

    The toff Cameron is not going to discipline him, but does say that this is not Tory policy. Not yet, anyway.

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  • 138. At 5:15pm on 13 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    A mischevous take on this would be to assume that due to our having a habit of knowing who we are descended from (assuming what have been told is correct and that the old tales hold good) we Taffs usually end up with a toff or two down the line. Ergo, if all Welsh people are toffs, he is going to make Wales a toffocracy by giving us real (and popular) devolution.

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  • 139. At 5:15pm on 13 Aug 2009, Notonationalism wrote:


    I like my aperitifs with Aperol or Campari - not arsenic.

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  • 140. At 5:22pm on 13 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:


    Ad Hominem once again FiDafydd, a variation of, fortunately there are others who contribute.

    We can begin to answer your insolence .....

    The first objective D.C. has outlined is the great fire of quangos, this is called a policy, bringing back into democracy devolved governmental responsibilities, a virtuous intention that even opponents support, a substantive beginning. You on the other hand have nothing but .............. arrogance and insults, oh, and a perverse interest in toffee I see.

    I look forward to the great fire of quangos cascading across Offa's Dyke, incinerating the Cardiff Bay quangos, there is no place in Wales for governance without democracy.

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  • 141. At 5:33pm on 13 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Try a slightly chilled Tio Pepe with tapas, and let's hope for some more sunshine tomorrow.

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  • 142. At 6:16pm on 13 Aug 2009, Lyn David Thomas wrote:

    So the purpose of the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and the Institute for Welsh Affairs is to promote further powers for the National Assembly of Wales and they were created for that purpose by the National Assembly for Wales.... Can you produce any evidence for that one too?

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  • 143. At 6:28pm on 13 Aug 2009, nomorepowers wrote:


    Follow the money!!!

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  • 144. At 6:40pm on 13 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    If you find the IWA is largely supported by individuals, companies and so on. Unlike many Conservative and Labour 'think' tanks it is in fact pretty independent and quite willing to be contrarian.

    Follow the realities...

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  • 145. At 6:43pm on 13 Aug 2009, nomorepowers wrote:

    Today we have been informed the peace keeping NATS want to promote past wars by preserving the Bryn Glas Battlefield.

    Funny how they like to be seen as pacifists one day and the next antagonists.

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  • 146. At 6:54pm on 13 Aug 2009, nomorepowers wrote:


    Follow the money !!!

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  • 147. At 6:58pm on 13 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:


    Is there any great significance to the Bryn Glas Battlefield ?

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  • 148. At 7:07pm on 13 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Yes, it makes people use capital letters incorrectly.

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  • 149. At 7:08pm on 13 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Follow the reality!!!

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  • 150. At 7:38pm on 13 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    Research of the battle that took place at Bryn Glas, a hill near Pilleth (Rolls Series, 28 (1866) p.341) ....

    ..... after the battle the Welsh women, camp followers or combatants unknown, mutilated the bodies of the English, the corpses were not given Christian burial.

    Such was life and death during A.D. 1402 on the Powys battlefield.

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  • 151. At 8:03pm on 13 Aug 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:
    The Institute of Welsh Affairs, has only one thing on its agenda, an independent Welsh speaking Wales. They're commissioned by the wag ( sorry, I cannot use capitals for that outfit ) for all sorts of policy making, they also conduct the many polls that show a huge surge of love and admiration for Rhodri.
    Read their press releases, for easy going English speaking Brits, you'll find much to chill yer bones.

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  • 152. At 8:58pm on 13 Aug 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    " Research of the battle that took place at Bryn Glas, a hill near Pilleth (Rolls Series, 28 (1866) p.341) ....

    ..... after the battle the Welsh women, camp followers or combatants unknown, mutilated the bodies of the English, the corpses were not given Christian burial.

    Such was life and death during A.D. 1402 on the Powys battlefield."

    Yep- that's what it was like - remind me why your hero Longshanks was better ? (At least we won in 1402..)

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  • 153. At 9:01pm on 13 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 151...

    I have gone right through the web site of IWA, and cannot find any clue as to where they get their funding.

    I finally gave up, and despatched an e mail to the financial director for the information.

    I await the response in anticiptation of enlightenment.

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  • 154. At 9:08pm on 13 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    And from whose point of view was this account written?

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  • 155. At 9:11pm on 13 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Professor Phil Williams died over six years ago. Iain Duncam Smith was the leader of the Conservative Party then and times have moved on, everywhere.

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  • 156. At 9:15pm on 13 Aug 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    " I have gone right through the web site of IWA, and cannot find any clue as to where they get their funding."

    I'm a member Map - It costs £40 a year - good value.

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  • 157. At 9:19pm on 13 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:

    IWA funding

    As somebody not involved in its internal workings (declaration of interests time: I am a Fellow, since I like to have access to all their reports) I do not know about the funding arrangements. But if you look at a copy of Agenda, it become clear that a lot of individuals, companies and so on are individual and corporate Members and Fellows. I suspect that WAG support is far less than you'd imagine.

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  • 158. At 9:44pm on 13 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 157...

    Sorry old fruit, 40 quid does not cut the mustard.

    They claim to have a membership of about 1500, x 40 is 60,000 quid, hardly pay the telephone and electricity bills, I would have thought.

    PS to that, even if corporate funding doubled or trebled that figure, it would not even begin to touch the amount of involved 'work' the IWA claims to do.

    I assume they have full time employees, all on , guess, a minimum of 15 grand, say ten, that would amount to 150k. Add overheads, maybe another 100k, cars, telephones, electricity, fuel, stationary, computers etc etc etc. Office rental/lease in that building alone would hit at least a minimum of 500 a week I would hazard a guess at. That is another
    25 to thirty grand plus council taxes, which would probably double the rent/lease.

    Now do be a good boy and explain just how this menage could be NOT be funded by external sources, close to the WAG/Assembly.

    Keep in mind, I have recently retired from business, and am familiar with the amounts of cash needed to fund an operation of the dimensions of the IWA.

    My own small business ran at well over thirty grand a year for office and such.

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  • 159. At 9:54pm on 13 Aug 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    Our work embraces a range of topics but especially focuses on politics and the development of the National Assembly for Wales,

    Please, read carefully that sentence from the IWA, it's telling us they're focusing on 'the developement of the National Assembly for Wales'.
    They are unelected, they beaver away for Welsh independence, and they're telling us where their focus is!! But IWA,is very often under the radar of the English speaking working classes ( me ) whose vote Llafur clamours for!!

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  • 160. At 9:55pm on 13 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    #152 Dewi_H wrote .....

    Yep- that's what it was like - remind me why your hero Longshanks was better ? (At least we won in 1402..)

    I think you will find that 100 years after the Hammer of the Scots, we in Wales had learned our lessons well, you forget ......

    ... during 1277 Edward I holidayed in Wales with an army of 15,000 there were 9,000 Welsh learning their trade with him.

    #154 Returnee wrote.....

    And from whose point of view was this account written?

    I would have thought the reference (Rolls Series, 28 (1866) p.341) would have given a clue.

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  • 161. At 10:17pm on 13 Aug 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 145

    I know that accuracy and the truth aren't important for some, but let me just point out to those who cannot read a news story and come out the other end with the facts, that this wasc brought up by Kirsty Williams, leader, I believe, of the Welsh Liberal Democrats.

    What's more she berated Plaid for not taking care of these historical sites.

    Unless you're implying that all the parties are now nationalist. And you wonder why some of us can't take you seriously...

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  • 162. At 10:17pm on 13 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    When mapexx wrote at #158 ........

    Sorry old fruit, 40 quid does not cut the mustard.

    ..... he was almost there, the Institute of Welsh Affairs, although it has Plc sponsorship, it is supported by the taxpayers through various government agencies such as .....

    ..... Arts Council of Wales, BBC Wales, Cardiff County Council, S4C, Welsh Water, Wrexham Borough Council and the University of Wales to name just a few; there is also the Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust, an organisation that pops up frequently.

    With branches in north, and west Wales, Swansea Bay, Gwent and London, it's going to take a little more than £40 membership fees.

    From wiki, and I don't doubt it .....

    The IWA has a fourfold mission....

    1. To help raise the level of public debate on issues affecting Wales, by placing quality information in the public domain.
    2. To influence policy-making through the dissemination of innovative new policy ideas.
    3. To provide networking opportunities for the IWA membership.
    4. To contribute to building the civic capacity of the country.

    Nation building without a doubt, but whose nation, but not the little peoples nation of Anglesey.

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  • 163. At 10:28pm on 13 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    My question was rhetorical.

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  • 164. At 10:31pm on 13 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    £1,000 for a Life Fellow
    £200 for a Fellow
    £40 for a Member

    I suspect Corporate Membership will cost a fair bit more than the individual member's rate. Also publications and events are charged for.

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  • 165. At 00:05am on 14 Aug 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    Dunno about the rest but my £40 a year is good value. Agenda is an excellent publication. Map - u should subsribe - it's not particularly nationalist.

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  • 166. At 00:19am on 14 Aug 2009, Notonationalism wrote:

    I hear that an FOI has been despatched to ascertain how much of our taxpayers' money is given each year by WAG to propagandist 'think tank', IWA. I have it on good authority that a substantial amount of money was paid for the main poll that they conducted last year on public support for primary law-making powers for the Assembly. We shall see whether this is the case.

    On a similar theme, apparently the Big Lottery (of which two Tomorrow's Wales executives are board members) did nothing wrong in giving money to Tomorrow's Wales to update an 'apolitical' (ha ha ha) guide to the Assembly.

    Follow the money indeed.

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  • 167. At 08:42am on 14 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 162....

    Stoney, I simply have to disregard all those items you mention, for the simple reason, the purpose of a council, no matter it's size or location, is to extract funding from us on a communal basis, and to return it by means of communal projects, to maintain, repair and renew where necessary, roads, housing stock, health matters, and all the rest of the multiple needs of the community.

    I see absolutely no necessity to remove funding from the tax take to go nation building. That as far as I am concerned is not in their legitimate remit.
    It may be done 'legally' within parameters set by the Assembly, but as I also see no need for that anyway, my premise stands.

    I would go as far as to say, our government, (Westminster, not that bogus toy-town construct in the Bay of Pigs)is extremely remiss in tolerating such tax wasting enterprise.

    As I have stated elsewhere, every pound used to fund such matters, is one pound less available for the needs of the population.

    When will it be, before the whole matter is taken in hand, and all this squandering of our taxation comes to a stop?

    Not too long I hope, as I am becoming less patient by the hour.

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  • 168. At 10:27am on 14 Aug 2009, Notonationalism wrote:

    The incestuous network between the Welsh Assembly, Tomorrow's Wales and IWA continues:

    Morgan Cole, a law firm based in the Thames Valley, sponsors Tomorrow's Wales, is a corporate member of IWA and performs the above role with the Assembly.

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  • 169. At 10:31am on 14 Aug 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:

    While I am not a Conservative I quite like David Cameron and object to people calling him a toff and worse. I can recall Harry Enfield who while working as a milkman said that the upper classes were generally very nice people but its the people who were clawing their way up that are the ones to watch out for. I would add the that those on the way down or with an obvious inferiority complex and of course the politics of envy.

    I quite admire the way DC has dealt with personal tragedy, and that experience of life has put him in touch with many of the traumas that face the ordinary people. I am not sure i could have coped as well so while I may disagree with his politics I am not in a position to judge the man.

    Prejudice is prejudice and it does not matter if its based on nationality, language or social class it cuts both ways and it amounts to the same thing and the same mind set. While I respect some people have strong views the worse offenders are the inverted snobs and the hypocrites.

    I seem to recall some comment a few years ago about an Eisteddfod that the language was being used as a form of fascism. We are in Europe and as such have more than a dozen different languages to cope with. The inability to speak all of them should be taken into consideration and we should concentrate on those that bring the greatest ecomonic benefit. Ironically on that issue it seems that it is the language issue that prevents us from all singing from the same song sheet.

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  • 170. At 4:11pm on 14 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    #167 mapexx you wrote .....

    message 162 .... Stoney, I simply have to disregard all those items you mention,

    I'm afraid you cannot dismiss .....

    the Institute of Welsh Affairs, .... it is supported by the taxpayers through various government agencies such as the Arts Council of Wales, BBC Wales, Cardiff County Council, S4C, Welsh Water, Wrexham Borough Council and the University of Wales to name just a few;

    This is a fact.

    Also .....

    The IWA has a fourfold mission....
    1. To help raise the level of public debate on issues affecting Wales, by placing quality information in the public domain.
    2. To influence policy-making through the dissemination of innovative new policy ideas.
    3. To provide networking opportunities for the IWA membership.
    4. To contribute to building the civic capacity of the country.

    A fact from their own website.

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  • 171. At 4:41pm on 14 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    Message 170...

    Stoney I did say disregard, not dismiss.

    I know what you are saying, but when looking for a resolution, one must be careful not to even engage in debate on such matters, better to not even commence debate.... hence disregard.

    To me all these, and the many other organisations set in motion since devolution, are so much dross, and very, very, expensive dross at that, and I seek to have them removed, and by entering into debate with those subjects on the table, one is tacitly accepting their validity and credibility.

    Not for me I am afraid. All or nothing, my prefernce being... NOTHING.!

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  • 172. At 4:50pm on 14 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Welsh Water is owned by Glas Cymru Cyf, a wholly private company, owned in effect by its bondholders.


    The four aims would appear sensible to anybody with Wales's interests at heart

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  • 173. At 4:52pm on 14 Aug 2009, nomorepowers wrote:

    Notonationalism 168

    It appears the NATS/Memebers of the IWA have stopped trying to defend the indefensible.

    Like many of us have stated in the past ......... Follow the money!!!

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  • 174. At 5:24pm on 14 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Sorry mate, the quietness reflects the fact that there is no point trying to debate where no debate is allowed.

    Follow the 85-90%.

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  • 175. At 5:31pm on 14 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 172....

    I will not bother getting bogged down in any further discussion re the four objectives, other than to say, who the hell do these people think they are, they are unelected, therefore undemocratic, and as such cannot speak on my behalf.

    Now to Welsh Water.....

    I do not pay a so called non profit making organisation that takes money off me for a basic utility, so that it can then pay part of MY money to organisations that are involved in the attempted break up of the UK.

    As for 'sensible objectives' that is a matter of subjective analysis by the people, and as one of the people, I have yet to be consulted for my input.

    What may be dear to YOUR heart, is not necessarily dear to mine. Or I suspect, many thousands more of the Welsh, who like me have not been asked to input to these organizations.

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  • 176. At 5:41pm on 14 Aug 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 168


    Enough silly insinuation. So go on then, prove to us that something untoward has happened here. Facts, not blind prejudice and paranoia. I'm not holding my breath, mind you.

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  • 177. At 6:04pm on 14 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    Not quite correct #170

    .... Welsh Water is owned by Glas Cymru a single purpose company with no shareholders.... .

    Your use of the term bondholders is disingenuous, it implies a relationship between lenders and the company, whereas bond holders are lenders not much different from its other financial creditors except they have better security. It's stated aim ..... is run solely for the benefit of customers, ..... except when it funds quasi political organisations.

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  • 178. At 6:09pm on 14 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:


    FiDafydd, during the months of association with mapexx and friends my politics has mellowed to being a center-right social moderate, a Political Spectrum analysis.

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  • 179. At 6:15pm on 14 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:


    Two executives, non-executive and finance directors, of Glas Cymru are also members of IWA's Board of Directors. The non-executive director at Glas Cymru is also an executive member of Tomorrows Wales. A conflict of interest ? Who knows, but sharing the same trough they probably have intimate conversations whilst enjoying the Cambridge burnt cream at dinner.

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  • 180. At 6:49pm on 14 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 179....

    Stoney, you warm the cockles dear sir.

    What some folk cannot grasp is the merest hint, of a sniff, of a slight discolouration, when in the public field of operations, can seriously jeopardize the probity of those who profess to act on OUR behalf.

    If Dwr Cymru wish to send representation to such forthright Assembly sycophant and support organisations, then the very least it can do is ask if I, and others, wish to have salaried company members rubbing up to those organizations.

    To date such requests have not been made, yet Dwr Cymru is pleased to tell me I should pay this and that to them for the privilege of being in receipt of that most basic of products. Water.

    Maybe when I next get my bill, I should demand an accounting of what I am paying for these cutched up shenanigans, between Dwr Cymru staff, and organisations I do not wish to be associated with, nor have my water undertaking associated with either.

    Should they wish to carry on associating, then I will require my bill to be reduced by the amount applicable to my share of the funding involved.

    Be it a pence, or pounds.

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  • 181. At 7:09pm on 14 Aug 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 178

    I'm sure that was meant to mean something ...

    And so, noto, absolutely no evidence whatsoever. What a surprise.

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  • 182. At 7:19pm on 14 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:

    179 & 180

    I am a bit concerned about the level of conspiracy theory development here.

    Surely the IWA was set up to prepare Wales as the land where Elvis could return to when a Second Coming is needed.

    The vote...20 years after his 'death'
    The place...the Preseli Hills are fit for a Presley
    The man behind it...was Col Sanders related to Saunders Lewis?

    It's either that, or the IWA is merely one of the better run, more accountable and more transparently financed thinks tanks in these isles.

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  • 183. At 7:34pm on 14 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:


    It means FiDafydd, that as you become more extreme, your opponents become moderate.

    On the other matter, the lid of the box is ajar, and the smell emanating is most foul. The WAG is unable to continue the charade, soon, very soon, there will be a challenge made for Rhodri's throne, and when the dust settles Plaid will crawl from government .....

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  • 184. At 7:49pm on 14 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:


    When you peel away the layers of society in today's Wales a modern aristocracy is discovered, an incestuous aristocracy; as a member of the tribe of little people in Wales I was unaware, as were my friends and family, and their friends and family, we can see now how the basket weave works, not for the benefit of us.

    A modern aristocracy, and to rub salt in the wounds, not even a meritocracy making up this aristocracy.

    Who was it that said .... show me a fortune and I'll find you a crime.

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  • 185. At 7:50pm on 14 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Surely the 'great stink' was at Westminster in 1858?

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  • 186. At 8:02pm on 14 Aug 2009, nomorepowers wrote:

    Stoney I think you might be wrong about Plaid crawling away from Government.

    Deplorably, P R in Wales has ensured the least popular parties in Wales will always have a say in Government.

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  • 187. At 8:14pm on 14 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    So you are suggesting the 'basket weave works' through Elvis's quiff?

    Now this is truly odd.

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  • 188. At 8:15pm on 14 Aug 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    I think Stonemason's 184 rather makes Returnee's point for him very nicely!

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  • 189. At 8:17pm on 14 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    I don't think so. The BNP and UKIP still look some way from getting into Cardiff Bay.

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  • 190. At 9:28pm on 14 Aug 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 189

    But with all the drooling British nationalists on here...who knows?

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  • 191. At 9:54pm on 14 Aug 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    Message 168.
    Anyway, the nightmare is almost over, it's all going pear shape for the driving force of devolution and compulsory Welsh lessons nonsense.....Welsh ( expletive ) Labour.
    When the Rhodri types, come slithering around for the votes of English speaking Brits, they're discovering a sense of revulsion towards them. Thankfully, the vote share of Rhodri's version of ( once ) Labour, plunges and plunges.
    How English, Labour MP's can abide the Rhodri types, is one of lifes many mysteries?

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  • 192. At 10:38pm on 14 Aug 2009, puredrivelagain wrote:

    Labour is dying and about time, they've held Wales back for long enough.

    Viva la revolucion!

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  • 193. At 10:52pm on 14 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:

    191 & 192

    My feelings of sympathy for Zanu Labour are, shall we say, limited. A generation out of power might be a healthy tonic.

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  • 194. At 11:10pm on 14 Aug 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    Sorry drivel, you poor disillusioned idiot. The only reason why Wales has achieved even this amount of devolution? Is because of a sectarian breakaway faction within Labour, who oddly refer to Irish-Welsh Celts!!

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  • 195. At 11:50pm on 14 Aug 2009, nomorepowers wrote:

    189 - 190

    Is that the best you NATS can do.

    With Labour hemorrhaging support in Wales because of their Nationalist leanings I still fail to see how Plaid will ever have more than a handful of seats in the next Assembly. How short your memories are, don't you remember good old Adam Prices predictions in the recent European Elections where he was adamant and seemingly cock sure that the taffia were going to be the number one party in Wales.

    Surely you Plaidites must now accept if you can't win Wales when the support for Labour is at an all time low also the distaste from the public over the expenses furore then we can all safely say they will always remain legends in their own minds.

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  • 196. At 11:53pm on 14 Aug 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 194

    Aren't these British nationalists charming? It stands to reason, I supppose, for a racist little mind to believe that the Welsh are incapable of anything...

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  • 197. At 00:03am on 15 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    I think I have been savaged by a dead sheep.

    Mind you, even live sheep do not resort to capital letters when their limited range of bleats are exhausted.

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  • 198. At 06:41am on 15 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    The separatists seem to have absorbed Edward Lear's mannerisms and writing style.

    As they.....

    ........... dined on mince and slices of quince,
    which they ate with a runcible spoon.

    I am guessing, but I think Returnee has created a new form of fallacious argument ....

    Argument by Lear.

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  • 199. At 07:28am on 15 Aug 2009, nomorepowers wrote:


    You and the Taffia Army can refer to the Unionists as British Nationalists for as long as it takes Dafydd Iwan to get a number one single in Patagonia. Recent history tells us the difference between our politics is the Taffia Army will resort to anything to fight their cause and I don't just me daubing graffiti.

    Actually, Taffia Army is quite apt.

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  • 200. At 10:40am on 15 Aug 2009, Ian wrote:

    Can we have a new topic, please Betsan?

    People are running out of insults to use here and by me saying this, you have reached the magic 200 mark. Time to move on.

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  • 201. At 11:04am on 15 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    Before you move on Betsan, let me share the following with our separatist friends .....

    Democracy thrives on the clash of ideas. It needs open and public debate of what government is doing well and badly. It needs a choice for the people, with rival parties being able to articulate a different approach.

    ..... and remind them of #196 where FiDafydd wrote:

    Aren't these British nationalists charming? It stands to reason, I suppose, for a racist little mind to believe that the Welsh are incapable of anything...

    ..... the quote was of John Redwood. It's a reminder of what politics is about, the quote of FiDafydd is what it is not about.

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  • 202. At 11:16am on 15 Aug 2009, Lyn David Thomas wrote:

    A number of specific allegations were made, namely that the Welsh Assembly Governement:
    1, Created the Institute for Welsh Affairs. No evidence that it did, and indeed it didn't do it.
    2. Created the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, No evidence that it did, and indeed it didn't do it.
    3. That both were created specifically to work for Welsh independence by the Welsh Assembly Government.

    No evidience for that either.

    Now the Institute for Welsh Affairs is a think tank that derives its funding from many sources and recieves commissions for some work, including from the Welsh Assembly Governemnt.

    The Wales Council for Voluntary Action aslo recieves funding from the Welsh Assembly governemnt to further its (The WCVA) agenda of supporting the voluntary sector.

    From this some people concoct the idea that this proves that they are all part of a conspiracy/astroturfing exercise to promote Welsh independence.

    Setting aside that the Labour Party is resolutely unionist, with sections against even devolution, though a majority backing it, how do people even begin to come up with these wild and fantastical conspiracy theories?

    I think some evidence is needed to prove all the point above. Of course there is no real evidence.

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  • 203. At 11:24am on 15 Aug 2009, Ian wrote:

    Let's talk about the NHS and the Tories cringing as now two of their MEPs are slagging it off. Is the 'friendly' veil finally slipping off Mr Cameron?

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  • 204. At 11:54am on 15 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    Lyn_Thomas, this is not about conspiracy, this is about unaccountable quangos/government funded bodies funding a political organisation.

    As I wrote at #170

    ..... the Institute of Welsh Affairs, .... it is supported by the taxpayers through various government agencies such as the Arts Council of Wales, BBC Wales, Cardiff County Council, S4C, Welsh Water, Wrexham Borough Council and the University of Wales to name just a few;

    One of the aims of the IWA is "to influence policy-making ............", a political organisation.

    I made reference earlier to a Welsh aristocracy, this is part of it.

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  • 205. At 12:09pm on 15 Aug 2009, Lyn David Thomas wrote:

    No specific allergations were made, though not by you in this case, and those allergations have not been proven or any evidence produced.

    Of course the Institute was set up to advance agendas - it also has other roles for which it recieves funding.

    Your attempt to construct this wide idea of interlinked organisations working to a common agenda with central direction is just not true.

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  • 206. At 12:36pm on 15 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:

    198 and 201

    A clash of ideas is a wonderful thing. To derive something of value from such a clsh requires rational discourse and the acknowlegement of realities. I am afraid our ultra-montaine friends have a distinct difficulty accepting realities. Hence my drollery about conspiracy theories and so on.

    Please also bear in mind that over the past few months, various unionists in this blog have on several occasions openly praised the BNP. The BNP are, at the best of times, a rather unpleasant bunch of people. It is a case therefore of moderate federalists (such as myself) being branded as an extremist separatist by people who in some (I do hope not all) cases have rather extreme views themselves.

    By the way, the world is still spheroid (not flat) the moon continues to be made of rock (not cheese) and heliocentrism remains a valid means of describing the workings of the planets round the sun. Likewise, 85-90% of people in Wales continue to support devolution.

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  • 207. At 12:39pm on 15 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Every learned society and research group seeks to influence policy making.

    If this line of arguement is to be used, then the Royal Society, the Royal Geographical Society and the Royal Academy are all political organisations, rather than learned societies.

    Just because the IWA seeks to encourage research and debate into the future of Wales does not mean that it is wicked or involved in some kind of fabulous conspiracy.

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  • 208. At 1:47pm on 15 Aug 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 201

    Is this the same Stonemason who's paranoia over the past few weeks sees fifth columnists everywhere, spies around every corner, the IWA planning world control, Plaid being to the left of Lenin as well as being in coalition with the Castros...? Is it? You're having a laugh.

    I've always believed that the Tories never lost their hatred of the NHS. It goes contrary to everything they believe in - pinko-liberal, bleeding hearts sticking their oars in where it's none of their business. The total opposite to their blind belief in self-reliance, and never mind anyone else. How can you believe in the NHS when you don't even believe in society?

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  • 209. At 3:09pm on 15 Aug 2009, Lyn David Thomas wrote:

    Their marketisation of the NHS so lovingly embraced by the Labour government in England gave a lie to the idea that the NHS was safe in their hands, it was privatisation by the back door, and there is more of that to come in England. Fortunately we have a different set up here.

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  • 210. At 3:28pm on 15 Aug 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    Shortly before the last assembly election, Rhodri Glynn Thomas was a guest on Dragon's Eye. He was asked if Plaid would be willing to work in coalition with Labour? He answered...'Yes of course we could, Rhodri Morgan is very popular with our language activists'

    But of course, us English speaking Brits don't notice how close Llafur and Plaid really are. We aren't supposed to notice Rhodri renaming his party..Explicitly Welsh patriotic party. We aren't supposed to notice Rhodri making headlines in the British press, with his inane bragging...'I want to make the English sick with jealousy'

    I am of course a paranoid Brit nat, so obviously, I'm going to vote for a British political party. Why would I vote for Rhodri? Who when as a guest on HTV's Water front, Rhodri said..'I don't want a British way of life, I want an Irish way' That's fine, but why would a Brit, vote for an anti-Brit?

    Paranoia, is only troublesome if you're imagining trouble and strife. The Senedd and regional Senedds, The Institute of Welsh Affairs, The Wales Audit Office, not to mention Welsh embassies, in the most prestigious locations in the World's most exotic cities, compulsory Welsh lessons, am I imagining all this?

    Paul Fynn, appeared on HTV's Tin Gods, the subject was the Prince of Wales, Flynn spoke the last words on the program..'As the assembly takes us firmly down the road to an independent Wales, we'll have no need of a prince of Wales' On his blog, he repeats what he believes is a certainty.

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  • 211. At 3:50pm on 15 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:


    No paranoia at this keyboard, there is an intense dislike for Plaid for a single reason, its stated intention of separating from the United Kingdom, an intention that is based upon hot air and mid 20th century extreme left wing socialism.


    Hallucinations Lyn_Thomas, or you have been away to long, how many times have the safe hands of the WAG changed direction these recent years. When the NHS is taken away from politicians and returned to the medical profession it will be a day to remember.

    In 1955 my TB was cured by doctors and nurses, ten years later meningitis was treated successfully, again by doctors and nurses. I despair when I hear of politicians meddling in areas they patently do not understand, the imposition of layers of administration is a politicians legacy the patients could do without.

    In Wales, there is little difference to the NHS in England, administrators meddle everywhere.

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  • 212. At 4:53pm on 15 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Beware the cliches - as mentioned before, there are those of us on the centre-right who are federalists as well.

    Re the NHS, there is a certain irony here, since a month or so ago one of the unionists (was it Mapexx?) wrote with passion about the need to abolish the NHS.

    Anyway, as you rightly infer, what matters is spending money on preventative and palliative care, not managemenmt consultants, computer programmers and meddlesome administrators.

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  • 213. At 4:56pm on 15 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    A most interesting entry. Read it one way and it comes across as a draft manifesto in favour of drastic fereralism or even independence! When black and white give way to shades of grey, the world becomes a fascinating place.

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  • 214. At 6:55pm on 15 Aug 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 211

    Wrong again. It is based on the fact that Wales is a nation, and with that fact come privileges and responsibilities.

    Plaid wants us to take on those responsibilities, not to shirk them. Self-reliance if you like, Stonemason. Refusing to accept responsibility is not usually applauded - by anyone.

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  • 215. At 7:00pm on 15 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 206....


    You had better provide some absolute proof of that statement....

    ".......Likewise, 85-90% of people in Wales continue to support devolution...."

    There has been no poll of any note that has provided such a return.

    Apart that is from a telephone poll done by an Assembly backed outfit which asked loaded questions.

    Message 212...

    You are fortunate that you turned your comment into a question re my name.
    So far, you have implied that I support the UKIP, the BNP, and by extension the Tory party.

    In every one of those you are totally wrong.

    As for that implication re the NHS, as I say, you squirmed out of actually stating it outright, but by adding my name in a question, the idea gets planted, or more deeply entrenched, in the unstable minds of the rabid language and isolationist nutters who stalk these blogs for targets to attack.

    If anyone is after the abolition iof the NHS, it lies in the policies of those just referred to,.

    Or maybe you cannot understand that by isolating Wales from it's paymasters across the Dyke, Wales would be in no position to fund the NHS that would be isolated with it. Thereby ensuring it's almost instant demise as a 'free at the point of delivery' service.

    With the tax take in Wales unable to maintain the rump of the Welsh NHS, and an ever aging population, with one of the highest sickness rates in Europe, just what chance under the new separated WAG/Assembly would any form of 'free' NHS have?

    I think it is the likes of you that defends the notion of a green cheese planetary satellite and a billiard table top Earth.

    I expect a response to this that refutes your implication I made such a despicable comment about the future of the NHS.

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  • 216. At 7:39pm on 15 Aug 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 215

    "the idea gets planted, or more deeply entrenched, in the unstable minds of the rabid language and isolationist nutters who stalk these blogs for targets to attack."

    Amazing, truly amazing!!!!

    It reminds me of the dialogue of one of those awful black and white B-Movies when the aliens had landed...

    Absolutely extraordinary! And one more example of the rampant paranoia of the British nationalist bloggers on here.

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  • 217. At 7:51pm on 15 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 216...

    Who opened the asylum door again?

    How you manage to wriggle out of your stratightjacket constantly amazes me.

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  • 218. At 7:54pm on 15 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Good on yer, mate. I tried to trawl through the archives, but the capital letters, bold type and angry language of the ultra-montaines are migraine inducing. If this was my error, I regret it.

    Re the BNP and UKIP - there are some pretty odd chappies (they have a chappish feel about their entries, so to speak) amongst the unionists. The Conservatives always contain the potential to be sound, but they have some odd tendencies.


    Perhaps my estimates for support for devolution and so on are too low!

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  • 219. At 9:01pm on 15 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:


    ..... some odd tendencies.

    ..... I also have problems taking FiDafydd's outrageous tendencies seriously.

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  • 220. At 9:40pm on 15 Aug 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    In I believe Dec 2005, HTV run a mini-series on the history of Cardiff, it was mentioned that in 1861, two thirds of the population were English. Much like Monmouthshire where the population quadrupled at about that time due to the Industrial Revolution.

    This didn't happen so much in west Wales, especially the north-west. So I do appreciate that a lot of north-west folk are of a totally different race, with their own unique language.

    So if the South Walians wish to remain British, would you genuine Cymry nationals like to claim, say Anglesea, as an independent homeland?

    And, could you take Rhodri and his loyal Llafur Druids? And, leave the rest of us the ( expletive ) alone?

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  • 221. At 10:05pm on 15 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Right, that's UDI for Gray's Inn Road and the Western Marches!

    For England, this view has all manner of implications.

    For a satirical view, read Julian Barnes's 'England, England' (1988) when a brief border war is bad news for Albion's army.

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  • 222. At 10:14pm on 15 Aug 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 219

    And what tendencies would they be? Hatred of the Tories? The Tories who destroyed so many of our communities in the 80's? The Tories who harbour a great dislike of the NHS? I plead guilty to that. Or is it my simple belief in the Welsh nation - and the responsibilities that evolves from that fact? A nation you even deny its existence.

    I trust, Stonemason, that you will be outraged by the tone and 'tendency' of message 220. However, I will not be holding my breath. You tend not to respond when it suits you not to.

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  • 223. At 10:21pm on 15 Aug 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    Message 206, Returnee wrote.
    Likewise, 85-90% of people in Wales continue to support devolution.

    Why d'you do it? Posting utter fiction? Unless you can prove this amazingly high figure for devo enthusiasm, your posts are a nonsense.
    Simple question to the nats, Llafur, takes a great pride in being the driving force for devolution and the ordering of compulsory Welsh lessons. So, if all this Llafur driven pseudo re-Welshification is so overwhelmingly popular, why hasLabour's vote share in Wales, collapsed faster than any other UK region?

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  • 224. At 10:41pm on 15 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    My figure is far, far closer to reality than the assumption of the unionists that the 'silent majority' is against devolution. I have been pressing ann essential point, albeit with a bit of a wind-up in the numbers.

    Even if we haggle enough to let an article leake a souk at its local price, all the opinion polls will say 65-75% are consistently in favour of at least the status quo.

    Come on, down below, until now, you have been a rather mellow fellow.

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  • 225. At 10:46pm on 15 Aug 2009, dai7900 wrote:

    Re 220..What exactly is a Walian?

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  • 226. At 11:04pm on 15 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Tricky one that, since the unionists have accused those who support devolution as being 'Taffs'

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  • 227. At 07:10am on 16 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    I tend not to repeat FiDafydd, you point raised at #222.

    I trust, Stonemason, that you will be outraged by the tone and 'tendency' of message 220. However, I will not be holding my breath. You tend not to respond when it suits you not to.

    I obviously anticipated this line of response, it is dealt with at Crown and feathers in caps. It is not a new concept, partition, families do it all the time, it happened in the Balkans, it happened between India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. Jack_Wilkinson is entitled to his valid opinion.

    I am afraid FiDafydd that you have become more antagonistic as the months go by, a dinosaur amongst commentators, it might be the crick in the neck causing your bad tempered responses, looking back into history.

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  • 228. At 07:50am on 16 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    My #227

    Where I wrote .....

    .... you point raised at #222.

    It should read .....

    your point raised at #222.

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  • 229. At 10:01am on 16 Aug 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    ...the Institute of Welsh Affairs, .... it is supported by the taxpayers through various government agencies such as the Arts Council of Wales, BBC Wales, Cardiff County Council, S4C, Welsh Water, Wrexham Borough Council and the University of Wales to name just a few;

    The IWA has a fourfold mission....
    1. To help raise the level of public debate on issues affecting Wales, by placing quality information in the public domain.
    2. To influence policy-making through the dissemination of innovative new policy ideas.
    3. To provide networking opportunities for the IWA membership.
    4. To contribute to building the civic capacity of the country.

    The University of Wales supporting the above!

    This institution refuses to set up any public complaints procedures contrary to the requirements of that useless Quango the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales HEFCW which hands over our money on the basis of a Memorandum of Understanding which is; keep the serfs in their place. Administrative Law as set up by the Nolan Committee on Standards in Public Life, and the Higher Education Act 2004

    The last thing they will want is any form of public debate or quality information on how they do their job or spend our money, that sort of thing like taxes is for the little people.

    The only innovation is based upon avoiding any form of accountability at which they are masters.

    Networking, there is only one network and its prefixed with the term old boys especially when it comes to public appointments which also applies to those who hand out lottery funds.

    As far as building the civic capacity of the country is concerned, the capacity for what - corruption?

    Policy Making, what is the WAG going to do? Vigorously enforce their unwritten policy to ignore anything that will undermine devolution.

    If anyone knows of similar going on in England or Wales please let us know so we can bring that to light as well!

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  • 230. At 10:16am on 16 Aug 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    So if the South Walians wish to remain British, would you genuine Cymry nationals like to claim, say Anglesea, as an independent homeland?

    They seem to be well suited to Anglesey, here are the comments made by the Audior General for Wales on how the County Council runs its affairs

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    People are right to raise awareness of these issues

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  • 231. At 11:02am on 16 Aug 2009, nomorepowers wrote:


    It sounds like you believe that people who are against further powers are anti devolutionists. If that is the case then once again you have demonstrated your head is too intrinsically involved in separation.

    Also many of us would agree there would have been a referendum yesterday. Further evidence can be seen in the European elections where the party of Wales and Llafur clearly failed to get the support of the majority.

    Taffia was a term used not Taffs. Many welsh people have no problem being called Taffs but Taffia is a term used for separatists who go about their business with menace.

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  • 232. At 1:04pm on 16 Aug 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    Funny you should mention Anglesey!

    Have you seen this?

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

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  • 233. At 1:34pm on 16 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    The term Taffia also refers to a certain Cardiff power elite associated with Old abour. It is unionist in that context. Perhaps the expression (like 'hoi polloi' and 'of that ilk') has become confused with time.

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  • 234. At 1:52pm on 16 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Again, perhaps some confusion here. Most on the blog who oppose more powers oppose all devolution per se, and that is where my line of arguement was directed towards. If you are in favour of the status quo, you are an exceptional person, in the context of the rest of the unionists in this blog.

    If the Euro elections are a proxy referrendum, then we need to include the Lib Dem votes as well, even if they were a bit on the thin side.

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  • 235. At 2:09pm on 16 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 234....

    I can assure you Mr Returnee, we are NOT exceptional in this area.

    We outnumber the pro devo's by a very large factor.

    And I am still awaiting an asnswer as to where you obtained your guesstimate that 80%+ in Wales are 'for devolution' and a isolation from the UK.

    But as I, and others, have asked that question repeatedly for some time, with neven a constructive or accurtae response, I must take it, that you also cannot provide such 'evidence' for your rather fanciful and ficticious claim.

    It would be interesting to many if you declared your area of location.

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  • 236. At 2:37pm on 16 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    You have misinterpreted my remarks. I was simply referring to NMP's observation that to oppose more devolution does not infer opposition to devolution per se. In that context, I alluded to his outlook perhaps being exceptional.

    Please read both messages. This is quite clear in both of them.


    I, Returnee (herinafter to be referred as 'Returnee') to hereby and hereon declare that I am located in Wales. The use of the expression 'Wales' in this context refers to the geo-spatial construct as deliniated by the Government of Wales Act.

    My guestimate on devolution support (which you have only queried once) was (as mentioned last time) a piece of drollery, which is meant to reflect the two following facts [1] all polls in the past decade have shown a majority in favour of at least maintaining the statuis quo as regards to devolution [2] that the majority in favour of maintaining or inmcreasing devolution has risen with time.

    Sorry to spoil your fun, but there is no need to play games with numbers or misrepresent what I and others have observed.

    The simple fact is that those in favour of devolution are in the majority and those who oppose it are in a consistently shrinking minority.

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  • 237. At 2:41pm on 16 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Pedantry corner: it is Dr Returnee!

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  • 238. At 2:49pm on 16 Aug 2009, nomorepowers wrote:


    You might find evolution in devolution the sensible thinking by the majority.

    When it comes to seeing any success in communities first we are told it will take a couple of generations

    Curiously this type of thinking doesn't apply to the Assembly. Despite, many major failings and awful politicians a "we want it all now" strategy will cause irreparable damage.

    Why is it not right to ask for further powers when the Assembly has proven itself.

    At the same time it can also be asked why not scrap it, if it fails the ordinary people of Wales.

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  • 239. At 3:05pm on 16 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    This is a fair comment and a nice piece of internal assonance as well, which is, I believe, a Good Thing.

    It's good to see some temperate remarks here. They are engaging and worth engaging with. Enjoy your Sunday, sir!

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  • 240. At 8:36pm on 16 Aug 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    What on Earth was so upsetting about my, M 220? That set off another outraged little hissy fit in Fi. I think what's happening in present day Wales, the idea of devolution is a quite ancient notion, and, totally stupid in todays Britain. A Britain where the Welsh and English, are so widely intertwined, masses of Welsh moving to England, English folk moving to Wales. There are more English surnames in Cardiff, Newport and Monmouthshire, than there are Welsh names. Voting patterns are showing an east west split in Wales, so, in a good humoured way, I'll politely ask again. Would you nats like an independent Anglesea?

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  • 241. At 8:42pm on 16 Aug 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 236

    Delightful, good Doctor. Unfortunately, however, that sort of humour will sail well over the heads of some people.

    Are of location, indeed.

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  • 242. At 9:30pm on 16 Aug 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 241

    That should be 'area', of course!

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  • 243. At 10:05pm on 16 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    I will keep on administering does of Truth and Rationality. Like Calpol and an upset child, it will soothe the furrowed brow, in time.

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  • 244. At 10:08pm on 16 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    What is in a name?
    What is an 'English' name these days?
    Which Newport are you referring to?

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  • 245. At 10:58pm on 16 Aug 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    Okie dokie, and, I shall make sure, I'll keep a sense of reality, against the 'does' and the does not, of Rhodri type supremacy.
    And, I shall administer a 'dose' of Truth and Rationality!
    I, of course refer, to Newport, Monmouthshire

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  • 246. At 11:17pm on 16 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Fear not my friend 'down below' I was just checking.

    I had to be sure, as the two Newports are wonderfuly different.

    Mind you, the 'up there' Newport has a wonderful eaterie (Llys Meddyg), where I suspect the surnames differ throughout the year. In fact, I think I am going to book supper there...right now.

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  • 247. At 06:41am on 17 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    An interesting concept "the truth", it generally comes with a question, "whose truth".

    A little like "democracy", it should come with a caveat "let the buyer beware".

    Unfortunately in Wales there is a democratic famine, so many interest groups swamp the electorate.

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  • 248. At 07:43am on 17 Aug 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    I, of course refer, to Newport, Monmouthshire. There hadn't been a Newport in Monmouthshire for 35 years Jack. Move with the times.

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  • 249. At 09:47am on 17 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 236

    I can only go on what are KNOWN figures, not fanciful one's, plucked out of the air to suit a flawed argument.

    Also, as you seem unable to discern the stated implication, I did not specifically ask, once only, the question, I did say 'I and others' have asked the question, not necessarily to you, but over many months of contributing to this and other blogs.

    As I, and others, have yet to have the answer we seek,.... I will ask it again,...

    ...where do you obtain the figures that tell you 80+% are on the side of what you seem to be opting for?

    I am afraid I cannot accept telephone polling with a slanted questionaire, no do I, or will I, accept the false figures gained from an inarticulate census return.

    Ticks in boxes, to make a unconfirmed statement, that the form filler can do a certain thing, is invalid, as far as statistics are
    concerned, without some degree of validation as to their capabilities.
    As the next census in 2011 wil show.

    I and others, who lie in my camp on the status of our homeland, refuse to be taken for fools, and we will resist any and all attempts to take Wales from it's present political and demographic environment, just to suit the pernicious ambitions of a bunch of separartists, with a lust for personal power.

    So let's be having that answer, in accurate terms,what IS your source of information?...if you please.... DR.Returnee.

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  • 250. At 10:21am on 17 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Elections, opinion polls. You take your choice.

    I see the capital letters returning. Green ink time?

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  • 251. At 10:31am on 17 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    mapexx, I think our erstwhile Dr.Doolittle has used figures from GfKNOP/IWP telephone poll June-July 2008 for WAG ......

    For full law-making and taxation powers as part of UK: 39%
    For independence: 10%
    For no change: 31%
    Want to abolish assembly: 15%
    Don't know/refused to comment:5.5%

    The figure of 80% is gathered by adding the first thee figures.

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  • 252. At 11:20am on 17 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    Message 251...

    I do not need to be castigated for the use of capitals, I use them in place of italics, which so far I have been unable to grips with.

    Not that I really give a toss what you think about it.

    Stoney... much like all those sort of 'quoted' figures, highly suspect for validity and credibility..

    These folk will not take the comment I always give,....

    .... "I prefer to wait for the ever receding referendum, and/or the results of, and proposals from, the winners of the next general election".....
    ...not what comes from a definitely slanted telephone poll contrived and conducted by a WAG/Assembly sycophantic unit, with a very high level of self interest at stake, should there be an antipathetic outcome.

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  • 253. At 2:31pm on 17 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    "Do not give a toss" what a nice chap.

    Capitals, green ink, incoherent anger.

    251 has got the numbers.

    Now show us a poll, any poll, in favour of scrapping devolution from the past decade.

    Bitterness and personal abuse are vpretty feeble when confronted by facts.

    I will stick to facts.

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  • 254. At 2:57pm on 17 Aug 2009, dai7900 wrote:

    Where is Anglesea?

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  • 255. At 6:06pm on 17 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Angle is on the Pembrokeshire coast. I believe Anglesea is a cottage there.

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  • 256. At 6:13pm on 17 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 253...

    Oxford English Dictionary....

    A sudden jerk: esp: a quick upwards or backwards throw of the head.

    I suspect you are unfamiliar with a full vocabluary, pro per the OED.

    Well I am not, therefore I am able to call into play words that obviously you have no conception of the menings of, and you tgherefore choose to put your ownm invalid emphaisis. Whatever you mean is not what I have utilised the word 'toss' for.

    Perhaps your Ph.d is a Cymraeg related doctorate, in which case you are excused for your ignorance of the ambiguities and subtleties of the English language..

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  • 257. At 6:14pm on 17 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 254...

    Over the sea, and far away!

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  • 258. At 6:38pm on 17 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 253

    The 'numbers' in 251 relate to that slanted telephone poll, and as such, I ignore them.

    However, I thank Stoney for once again bringing them out into the open for all to see what is falsely being claimed in the name of the 'silent' majority..

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  • 259. At 6:49pm on 17 Aug 2009, dai7900 wrote:

    Pity these monoglots can't spell

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  • 260. At 6:52pm on 17 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Once again, show us a poll, any poll that is in favour of abolishing devolution since 1997.

    A poll cannot simply be rejected because it shows the 'wrong' outcome. This is not Iran.

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  • 261. At 6:58pm on 17 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Personal abuse again.

    Dreadful spelling again.

    And a refusal to appreciate that the word 'toss' here probably does not mean 'I don't give an upwards / backwards throw of the head' in this context.

    My Doc was in science, at Oxford (not the Poly). As a result, I do indeed know the OED well, in fact I own a copy of the second edition of the full version, many thousands of pages long.

    I think my understanding of the English language is somewhat better than this person's, which is why all attempts at wit and drollery are either avoided or provoke green ink responses.

    Likewise, the anger when faced with facts.

    Oh dear.

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  • 262. At 7:11pm on 17 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:

    There is no Polytechnic at Oxford.

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  • 263. At 7:30pm on 17 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    There sure was! OK, it is Oxford Brookes now, but in the eighties it was the Poly, the happy home of some very affable nice-but-dims.

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  • 264. At 7:42pm on 17 Aug 2009, West-Wales wrote:

    I thought "toss" in this context referred to the toss of a coin - a variation of its not worth a toss

    But my post grad research was not at Oxford, didn't include linguistics or etymology, so will accede to more learned opinion

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  • 265. At 7:48pm on 17 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    Are you coining a phrase?

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  • 266. At 8:08pm on 17 Aug 2009, John Henry wrote:


    This attitude towards people dribbles from the expressions you use, for months I have wondered what makes you write with such condescension, tonight you gave an answer not unexpected; the answer lies with Oxford Brookes University, they have Shami Chakrabarti as Chancellor, and we need to send you down, for snobbery and constant Argument by Lear, unworthy characteristics, designed to spoil.

    Better that Shami Chakrabarti took Betsan's contributors to task, we could be certain she would speak with honesty.

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  • 267. At 8:17pm on 17 Aug 2009, West-Wales wrote:


    Neologism is not my thing :)

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  • 268. At 8:26pm on 17 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    I am afraid you are attacking me by missing the point of my observation completely.

    This is the wrong way round regarding snobbery. The Poly types I was referring to were the public schoolboys who looked down their noses as compos like me.

    Again, I was referring to the Poly of the 1980s.

    Please do not turn my point upside down.

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  • 269. At 8:48pm on 17 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:

    256 & 266

    Why all this hatred dircted to people whose points of view differ?

    I can only assume it is to drive dissent away from the blog.

    It is a great pity since there are some engaging people here, no matter if our views differ.

    It is a great pity.

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  • 270. At 10:39pm on 17 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 269...

    No hatred at all, just a refusal to bend to the oneupmanship displayed in your messages, and the pernicious rhetoric in those of others, as they plough on regardless of politeness, and probity, heading to an arrival point, that cannot be tolerated, by those who oppose, for sound reasons..

    As for accepting a telephone poll, conducted as stated, by an Assembly supported, or supporting, organisation, using slanted questions, what would the Iranians do about that?

    Why of course they would proceed as though it gave carte blanche for their insane agenda, much as the failed mess in Cardiff Bay are doing.

    I also have a full OED, and if yours amounts to 'few' thousand pages, well and good, the word 'toss' appears on just one page, with some eighteen or more definitions.

    For the sake of this debate, it is just that one page that matters.

    I could have responded... no, I will... by saying my OED runs to 14 volumes, how many pages?... I don't know, but I would say probably something in the order of twenty or thirty thousand, consideriong the first volume alone runs to 1300. But what has that to do with the price of fish?

    Dissent is what these type of blogs are about, we do not all come here to praise Caeser, some come to bury him. Caeser in this case being the folly of devolution, and this inane notion of splitting Wales from the rest of the UK.
    But what does it all prove?... only that you are, as stated, a great one for oneupmanship, or as Stoney lucidly put it, Snobbery.

    Ph.d?.... more like Elmer Phud.

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  • 271. At 05:41am on 18 Aug 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 272. At 08:19am on 18 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:

    270 & 271

    Again, the post 270 drips with bitterness and a blunt refusal to engage. The anger I suspect comes from a mindset that refuses to engage with facts or opinions, unless they act as a bolster. This is symptomatic of a group mentality that feeds on harsh views and makes them harsher still.

    Yes, I have used wit, drollery and various forms of humour in order to try to elicit humour and the like, to see if there is a human side.

    Instead, all there is are lumps of personal abuse and ever more ghastly attempts to deliberatly turn what is being said into another excuse for abuse.

    Again, the latest accusation, snobbery is a pathetic inversion. Yes, I am an elitist - a Welsh Internationalist, not a Little Briton. Somebody who looks outwards and seeks to engage with people with imagination and vision, rather than ingrained paranoia. Perhaps I am guilty of not being able to suffer fools gladly. But some of these postings quite fail to see how foolish their responses appear.

    It is akin to talking to a brick wall.

    271, yes you sure have a point, even if I would express it more gently.

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  • 273. At 09:15am on 18 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    The last two are typical examples of why Wales will never go it alone.

    The ordinary folk in this region will never tolerate such nationalism to become the norm.

    Those are the exact same emotive rants that took Germany into the state of Nazism in the 1930's.

    Their problem though, is they have no Jews, or such,to lay it on, so they attack those who will not take their nonsense.

    Fortunately, the majority will express it's refusal to allow such manics to take over, when they finally get a proper say in the matter.

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  • 274. At 09:39am on 18 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 272...

    I am not a little Briton. I am Welsh to a factor of some five generations, at least, traced) what have you to offer, except that you are a great one for being 'elitist'

    That is a self declared form of snobbery, in that anyone who does not comply with your fanciful notions, are below your contempt.

    You make issue of your educational achievements, if true, and fail to realise that you could be a brain box to the likes of Einstein, but thaty does not give you, and your sort, dominion over the majority, unless and until, that majority give you leave to take that dominion.

    They have not, nor does a fleetingly slated telephone poll give it to you. So before castigating others for your own failings, it would be more suited to wait until that majority has swung behind your elitist point of view.

    In the meanwhile I will continue to promote the dissolution of all that has come into force since 1997, and which has done no favours whatsoever for the people of Wales, except of course the 'elitists', who at present, see their shaky empire beginning to tremble its way into an earthquake situation.

    Hence the reluctance of Cardiff Bay to go for that promised referendum.

    I suggest to you, that in future you can stop me making scurrilous remarks, by the simple tactic of refraining to do the same.

    Try re-reading your previous messages that responded to mine, somewhere along the line you will see where you decided to make uncalled for comments, (probably unconscious of so doing), that then elicited a similar response from myself.
    If you wish to carry on debating any subject at all, do so in a rational and reasonable manner, leaving your schoolyard thetoric firmly in the scvhoolyard.

    As for brick walls, it is you, and others, who despoil that wall with your scurrilous graffiti, every time someone disagrees or dispute with you.

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  • 275. At 10:20am on 18 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    As I said, it is like talking to a brick wall.

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  • 276. At 11:08am on 18 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 275....

    Still at it then?

    The brick wall is yourself.

    A pedantic fool with an elevated sense of his own infallability.

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  • 277. At 11:43am on 18 Aug 2009, Returnee wrote:


    One minute I am accused of being too stupid, the next minute I am accused of being too intelligent and now I am accused of being a pedantic fool.

    Everybody who disagrees with this sad individual seems to get the same level abuse meted out at them.

    He is truly pathetic.

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  • 278. At 12:15pm on 18 Aug 2009, mapexx wrote:

    Message 277...

    You get that because you try to be one one hand overly smart, and on the other quite crass.

    As I said before, refrain from making scurrilous remarks and comments, stick with rational and reasonable debate, and then no more will emanate from my keyboard.

    One of the very obvious failings with the overly clever pedant is, they cannot see where they themselves are out of step.
    They invariably submit impolite remarks, thinking how clever they are, but cannot take it in when their rhetoric is returned.

    Hence the reason why all who make the same mistake of failing to keep to the subject matter, and slew off into castigatory remarks, 'get it meted out to them'

    Pity really, as when being circumspect in their responses, they can often be very worth debating with.

    Pathetic indeed,... try the mirror, instead of the brick wall!

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