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Brotherhood of man

Betsan Powys | 22:46 UK time, Thursday, 9 July 2009

I was standing on the Llangollen International Eisteddfod field with my four year old, trying to join a huge, if a bit disjointed circle of festival goers, holding hands in the name of brotherhood and international understanding, when my mobile phone rang.

It turned out that anything but brotherhood and understanding had broken out at the Finance Committee meeting in Cardiff Bay. Perhaps it should be renamed the Feisty Committee.

Chair Angela Burns had been told that the Deputy First Minister, Ieuan Wyn Jones, would after all release to the committee the Ministerial Advice he's been given on the Heads of the Valley road, the advice they've been putting pressure on him to disclose for some time now. That's the good news. The bad news is he won't be handing it over until the end of term.

That means the committee won't have a chance to discuss it unless they meet during recess. That, said the Chair, was exactly what she'd ask them to do unless the paperwork turned up earlier, upping the ante and the pressure on the DFM.

While the cameras were turned on, things were heated enough. When they'd been switched off the accusations really started to fly. Plaid members accused others of targetting Mr Jones in order to undermine the coalition - in other words being considerably less bothered by the future of the Heads of the Valleys road than knocking the coalition off course. In return one member reportedly shouted back in less than brotherly fashion that "it's not this committee that's undermining the government it's your ... Minister".

Meanwhile it's been announced that Paul Starling, a man who knows a thing or two about making his voice heard and his feelings known - formerly of the Welsh Mirror - will be standing for People's Voice in Torfaen at the General Election. It's unlikely the incumbent, the other Paul - formerly of the Wales Office - will be tempted to raise his own voice in response. That's not his style after all. Unlikely, though, that brotherly love will be the theme of the battle in Torfaen.

And sticking to the subject of peace, understanding and brotherly love, just a thought .What happens if David Cameron decides that his Director of Communications Andy Coulson - formerly of the News of the World - is somehow tainted by the allegations surrounding the paper and should no longer remain in the job? Any number of ifs and buts there I grant you but ... just wondering whether a certain Welsh speaking press adviser is polishing up his CV?

Back to the Eisteddfod tomorrow but this time, to sing with the choir. In other words it's competition day. Just as well I did my bit for brotherly love and international understanding today then.

Comments

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  • 1. At 03:35am on 10 Jul 2009, mapexx wrote:

    Hi Guy's I'm Back.


    When I have had a good read through everything posted since the 18th of June, I will take up the task of commenting again.


    By the way, a big thank you to all who wished me a good holiday, let me inform you all, it was GREAT.

    My booze store is totally revitalised, and my personal health restored.

    Sorry that this is not a comment on the subject responded to, but give me a break, I promise to retain the tghread in future.

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  • 2. At 08:26am on 10 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    There are some of us who think we should be governed in a more open and transparent way over and above any other consideration. It would bring an end to countless arguments over issues such as this and bring about more social justice for all as wrong doers would not get away with it.

    In that respect I applied under the Freedom of Information Act for a copy of the report in question. A letter from the Assembly dated the 19th of June said I would receive a reply by the 15th of July in which case I will email it to the Finance Committee. If not I will email the reasons for the refusal but given it is going to be released anyway the only reason for refusal is that they are being deliberately obstructive.

    What the Finance Committee needs to do now is ask the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales (HEFCW) for a copy of the report into the finances of the University of Wales Lampeter by consultants Haines Watts.

    We have a right to know what went wrong and what has been done about it. Moreover, if an institution is at risk then so are the people who work and study there, redundencies are not the only concern, when the rules breakdown deviant behaviour and suicide are more likely. However, HEFCW have refused to make this report public despite requests from a member of the public and the BBC.

    They just dont seem to understand the concept of public interest and accountability. Thats because the public are only there to hand over the money while being excluded from any say in how the money is spent or on the need for ESTYN style inspections of Welsh Universities.

    As far as press conduct is concerned they could use their talents to expose what has been going on, and AMs should take a good look at the huge expenses incurred some of which are personal to keep it all quiet.

    As far as brotherly love is concerned the comment by Napoleon that "religion is excellent stuff to keep common people quiet" seems to take on a whole new meaning. I wonder if Tomorrows Wales will be demanding they set an example!

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  • 3. At 11:20am on 10 Jul 2009, Cardiffian2008 wrote:

    "just wondering whether a certain Welsh speaking press adviser is polishing up his CV?"

    Is this how we are now to define people in this country? Whether they are Welsh speaking or not? In fact, I doubt Gutto Harri is even in Wales so surely 'Welsh press advisor' would have done enough to distinguish.

    How is it relevant to the story? am i missing something?!?

    Yours,

    Welsh counter (but only to about 10) Cardiffian2008

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  • 4. At 2:28pm on 10 Jul 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 3

    What a ridiculous comment.

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  • 5. At 2:50pm on 10 Jul 2009, Notonationalism wrote:

    Interestingly, People's Voice in Torfaen is against the separatist agenda being followed by the Welsh political establishment. Should the nationalist direction of the Labour Party in Wales continue, PV might well win a lot of support.

    Neo-Cromwellian, Tomorrow's Wales will certainly want people to stay quiet about how they get their funding. I wonder whether it is legal for two members of the Tomorrow's Wales executive to be on the Big Lottery Fund Committee, and to have awarded a substantial grant to their own political organisation.

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  • 6. At 3:09pm on 10 Jul 2009, penddu wrote:

    1 Welcome back - hopefully your blood pressure has been normalised by Chianti and you will be more tolerant of cultures other than your own ;o)

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  • 7. At 3:34pm on 10 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #5 Very interesting comment about Tomorrows Wales, whether its legal or not you can be certain nobody is going to do anything about it.

    Many people have asked the obvious question is their Supreme Leader acting in a personal or official capacity. He himself has said it is mainly personal.

    Under charity law that is not good enough it must be 100% personal, as political activity is not a charitable cause, the church could be in breach of its charitable status and cease to be a charity.

    Then 40% of everything put into the collection plate would go to a very worthy cause namely the people of this country by way of taxes. I could go on about taking all that land into public ownership but on this occasion I shall refrain.

    When the Charity Act 2006 comes into force later this year we will be clearer on this issue as I intend to make a complaint accordingly. The issue of expenses may also arise!

    Now if they were elected we could of course vote them out of office, its a dirty game politics which is why mixing it with religion brings out the worst in people and leads to repression.

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  • 8. At 4:12pm on 10 Jul 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    It would be far more exciting to see Guto Harri stand in Torfaen and Paul Starling up for the Tory Communications Advisor.I can imagine the headlines. 'Welsh Speaking Tory candidate fails to get his message across in Torfaen' and Old 'hack' Paul Starling 'taps' to the Tory tune as the new Director of Communication. As for Ieuan Wyn Jones what can
    anyone say 'poor dab'?

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  • 9. At 4:53pm on 10 Jul 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    Mentioning the late Welsh Daily Mirror, when it was killed off for supposedly financial reasons, it had a circulation of around 150,000. At that time the Scottish Mirror had a circulation of around 60,000, similarly the N Ireland issue had a circulation of around 50,000, they're both still going.
    Paul Starling the Mirror's political editor was always against devolution, separatism and Welsh language elitism. In the Mirror's last two issues, Starling really got stuck into Welsh Labour, he wrote.....'Something stinks in the heart of Welsh Labour'. He then advised readers to vote Conservative in Monmouthshire, Newport, Cardiff, Vale of Glamorgan and Bridgend, he especially urged Monmouthshire readers to vote for David Davies.
    Logic says that the Welsh Mirror was not pulled for financial reasons, but because it couldn't back the Welsh version of Labour.

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  • 10. At 5:47pm on 10 Jul 2009, John Henry wrote:


    But will the Feisty Committee come to blows with Fisty Jones.


    A typical bully of the political order, he is acting as if the information is a state secret, I wonder if he will resort to redaction to avoid the embarrassment when it becomes apparent his decisions were based on a narrow nationalist agenda.

    This is the Fisty Jones .....

    ..... that would lead the people to a promised land,

    ..... without them knowing the destination until after arrival.

    ..... nothing new then, Plaid in a pickle and they revert to type.


    Plaid AMs are correct, the coalition is in tatters, the other parties are seeing Plaid as political poison without an antidote, preferring bottled water.


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  • 11. At 6:23pm on 10 Jul 2009, nomorepowers wrote:

    Welcome back MAPEXX you are a NATS nightmare and have been dearly missed.

    We all know why IWJ won't release the HOV report but will you separatist bloggers here come out and condemn IWJ for strengthening a leisure route at the expense of a commercial route that runs across some of the poorest areas in Wales. Silence is deafening NATS.

    Also, what have you to say about WAGS Flagship programme Communities First. More powers, i hope not.


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  • 12. At 7:07pm on 10 Jul 2009, christiancitizen wrote:

    Enjoy the International Eisteddfod. It is a great way to bring different peoples, languages and cultures together. Pity our own "National" Eisteddfod can't show the same tolerance towards English, especially as English speakers are the majority in Wales.

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  • 13. At 7:11pm on 10 Jul 2009, Igotitallwrongsorry wrote:

    Fancy having your mobile on in llangollen!!. Would never happen in the proper Eistodfodd.As No.3 posted who gives a stuff whether the certain Welsh speaker is buffing up his/her CV or not?. The very worrying thing to an english only speaker is that the Political Expert on BBC Wales is somehow concerned /thinks that welsh speaking matters a jot to DC. The "CHAIR" speaking is surely a miracle but in the very politically corrct BBC Wales one could never refer to a woman as a Chairman because that would upset the sisterhood and that is unforgiveable. The other little man Other than IWJ) from North wales(Self Determination Party and Republican)who also a LORD and has sworn allegiance to Her Majesty who is Presiding Officer declared some days ago that we were now seperated from the wrong doings in Westminster.The "wheeze" of saying you can have the information (report paid for by taxpayersof UK),but after end of session is purely Lord Mandehlsson/Alastair Campbell and nothing but political chicanary. The really worrying aspect of this is the role of our First Minister who now seems to represent Prince Charles at a Test Matches,rather than protecting us ordinarly people who love the UK from the wreckers in his own government. Come back Lord Kinnock and Lady Lady Kinnock to your homeland and srike your "banner" high in the Vale of Glamorgan and your followers will flock to your moats to take on the seperatists now running welsh labour.(How would ONE ever get into the LORDS ina self determined piece of land that nobodies intrested in really).I rest my case my LORD.

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  • 14. At 7:17pm on 10 Jul 2009, thegnatswatter wrote:

    11. And so say all of us.

    10. He did lead the biggest ever trade mission to leave these shores
    to the land of milk and money pity we the taxpayer subsidised
    every business fat cat to the tune of £550.

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  • 15. At 10:12pm on 10 Jul 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 12

    The same old negativity. Don't let the Welsh-speaking Welsh have anything for themselves - because that's just intolerance on their part. Even if they thought of it in the first place. And even if it happens to be very good.

    So it goes like this: a Welsh language only Eisteddfod - very bad. An English language only blog - very good, and don't even think of writing in Welsh on here...

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  • 16. At 00:19am on 11 Jul 2009, puredrivelagain wrote:

    11,

    Nomorepowers - I hope you never gain any political power. If your view of us north walians is of living in nothing more than a leisure playground, a goup of citizens who don't deserve a decent road to the south to develop links with the south and all that jazz - then you are not welcome up north.

    South south south is all you understand, or UK UK UK...

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  • 17. At 07:08am on 11 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    We have a situation whereby the the Deputy First Minister is unable to disclose a secret report upon which he based an important decision, any AM worthy of the name must object to such behaviour as being undemocratic and contrary to he concept of devolution and power to the people.

    After pressure he is now going to make it public, what a way to govern any country, yes I accept Wales is a country with a unique culture and language etc. Moreover I do not want to have a go at IWJ just because he is a Nationalist as Rhodri Morgan has a similar case to answer with regard to higher education.

    Just because I object to this behaviour it does not make me anti anything except an unaccountable elite that this government does not have the courage to tackle. They seem to have jumped on the bandwagon to avoid any scrutiny and grap that power for themselves. So if they want more power to carry on this way the answer is no.

    On this blog we have allegations concerning lottery money to fund a political organisation and the church involved in non charitable purposes. We also have an attitude towards Westminster of being holier than thou!

    So who is going to investigate these matters?

    Is the government going to turn a blind eye because they are pro devolution?

    The church can say what it likes, so can its clergy as private individuals through pressure groups such as Tomorrows Wales

    But when they submit evidence to a Commons Select Committees using their official title in order to change the way in which I am governed that is political activity and that it should be funded by the lottery and the church is an outrage.

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  • 18. At 10:03am on 11 Jul 2009, Lyn David Thomas wrote:

    I think you will find that charities have engaged in politics for years, just not party politics. You can't separate a social agenda from politics, campaigning on social issues is part of what all charities do. Now if Tomorrows Wales was to endorse a political party you would have a case to answer. It doesn't so you don't. No different from the NSPC campaigning on a children's commissioner or the RSPCA for legislation on animal welfare or SCOPE for the protection of the rights of the disabled. All are political, just not party political.

    And remember if Stonemason had his way both the International and the National Eisteddfod would close as he would withdraw all public funding from them, being both hobbyist and arts organisation in receipt of public money - which he would withdraw.

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  • 19. At 11:57am on 11 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #18 You said

    Now if Tomorrows Wales was to endorse a political party you would have a case to answer. It doesn't so you don't. No different from the NSPC campaigning on a children's commissioner or the RSPCA for legislation on animal welfare or SCOPE for the protection of the rights of the disabled.

    Both the NSPCC and RSPCA would be campaigning in accordance with a legitimate charitable purpose.

    However, Tomorrows Wales is campaigning to change the way in which we are governed its the same as campaigning for a republic, it is political activity and not a charitable purpose. That it is not aligned to any one political party is irrelevant.

    Moreover, people involved should clearly state they are acting in a personal capacity.

    Tomorrows Wales seem to be campaigning for bishops to have a seat in what could be a future Welsh House of Lords to make up for the one they lost at Westminster when the became disestablished from the Church of England.

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  • 20. At 12:06pm on 11 Jul 2009, Fitzmark2 wrote:

    Regarding the separatist intentions of the Plaid/Llafur coalition the heading of this blog is deeply ironic; but I'm sure you realise that Betsan.

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  • 21. At 4:17pm on 11 Jul 2009, Wil_CC wrote:

    Betsan, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't this long-awaited report provide advice for IWJ on his National Transport strategy? And isn't he releasing that report when the strategy is announced on Wednesday?

    So why does this committee have to meet in recess? They could meet on Wednesday or Thursday or does their 10 or so week recess now have to begin at six o'clock on Wednesday afternoon? Maybe Roger Jones should have linked their expenses to an hourly rate.

    By the way I hear Labour AMs are extremely embarrased by Alun Davies' language and behaviour in the Finance Committee and that he's now in trouble with the Assembly authorities. There's no way he's going to get nominated to stand in Blaenau Gwent. Shame.

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  • 22. At 4:31pm on 11 Jul 2009, John Henry wrote:

    #18

    Now why exactly would the International and the National Eisteddfod close if public funding were withdrawn?

    Is it because both events are uneconomic; so why not sort yourself out, raise the cost of tickets, or reduce the activities to a level that income from the event can support. Why should the poor of Llanelli subsidise your wants, my daughter and me went to the SWALEC Stadium today to watch cricket, rain stopped play, but we paid in full for the pleasure, no negative financial effect on the unemployed of Newtown.


    Tomorrows Wales is political, it is campaigning to change the constitution in such a way that the mediocre of Welsh political circles can stamp their vision of what is good for people, they choose to do the dirty work of Plaid and chums outwith the democratic process, using charitable donations from the same people they would crush under their heels.

    Fortunately this particular crechyn has been outed, and the process of publicising their devious plans is only just beginning.



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  • 23. At 5:04pm on 11 Jul 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 22

    What? You went to watch a Test Match that came to Wales - as Glamorgan CCC are quite happy to accept - thanks to a lot (a lot!) of financial help from the WAG!! I'm quite happy about that, and I'm delighted that you're applauding their efforts - and success - as well.

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  • 24. At 5:14pm on 11 Jul 2009, John Henry wrote:


    #23

    Well I saw lots of silly posters, but exactly what WAG financial help?

    I know Cardiff City Council made a loan for part of the stadium build.

    The 5 day event, profit or loss, that is the question?


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  • 25. At 5:14pm on 11 Jul 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    The "poor of Llanelli" paid £3m of taxpayers money for that cricket game Stony. Glad to see you enjoying yourself at the taxpayers expense!!!

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  • 26. At 6:55pm on 11 Jul 2009, John Henry wrote:


    #25

    Bull, this event is revenue positive for the organisers. An ashes series has never lost money, full of crap as usual.




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  • 27. At 8:11pm on 11 Jul 2009, Notonationalism wrote:

    Neocromwellian and Stonemason are right. Tomorrow's Wales is a 'yes' campaign for a full law-making (and tax-raising) parliament for Wales. It sells itself to these charities by claiming to be interested in involving people in democracy. In truth, this organisation is about securing more power for a political elite centralised in Cardiff and we ordinary people of Wales will find ourselves even more out of pocket as our hard-earned taxes go to fund another 20 politicians and goodness knows how many more lawyers, civil servants and plush government buildings.

    There is no point complaining to the Big Lottery Fund about the irregularity implicit in the allocation of charity money to the Archbishop's political organisation because Tomorrow's Wales members are shamelessly positioned on its Committee.

    The question remains as to why the press is unwilling to expose this incestuous network.

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  • 28. At 8:58pm on 11 Jul 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    The "poor of Llanelli" paid 3m of taxpayers money for that cricket game Stony. Glad to see you enjoying yourself at the taxpayers expense!!!

    How can anyone fib with such accomplished effortless ease and not feel embarrassed? Holding The Ashes in Cardiff will not cost the tax payers of 'the poor of Llanelli' or anyone else in Wales a penny.
    Cardiff folk are celebrating the fact that it could pump as much as £80 million into the local economy.....No outrageous subsidies, just the benefits of English and Australian dosh pouring in.
    What do you nats think of the fact that the Welshman David Morgan, the chairman of The England and Wales cricket board, worked so tirelessly for this event? Would he be an uncle Thomas?

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  • 29. At 10:48pm on 11 Jul 2009, nomorepowers wrote:

    Well said Jack ...... and don,t forget that over 150 billion people from across the world will have watched the match learning about Wales in the meantime.

    Rhodri stated on Radio Wales the next step is to have a WELSH cricket team like Ireland and Scotland. How many people do you think will tune in to watch Wales play as an Independent Nation.

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  • 30. At 01:21am on 12 Jul 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    I agree with us giving three million quid to ensure an Ashes game was played here.

    But it's like a "fact" that we paid for it. Three million quid in fact.

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  • 31. At 01:47am on 12 Jul 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 26

    Your're a very sad person Stonemason if your prejudices cannot accept facts, or indeed the success of the WAG's intervention.

    It's been a very good game as well - so far!

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  • 32. At 03:52am on 12 Jul 2009, puredrivelagain wrote:

    Just a few small housekeeping matters. I'd be grateful if the culprits could "put me straight":

    Stoney - In 24 you write "The 5 day event, profit or loss, that is the question". In 26 you then aggressively reply to Dewi_H with "Bull, this event is revenue positive for the organisers. An ashes series has never lost money, full of crap as usual." Thus answering your own question. Are you compus mentus?

    Jack_Wilkinson - Perhaps I have more pride than you but I think that David Morgan, chairman of the England and Wales cricket board has missed a rather glaring point of order. It's the England and Wales cricket board yet the team is simply "England" and we were previously told that we weren't allowed our own team because we are part of the above. This particular NAT thinks it's extremely out of order.

    Nomorepowers - Watching Scotland play as a non-independent nation hasn't hurt their figures so won't hurt if Wales play as an independent or non-independent nation. How many will watch? Don't know, we've never had a team before but I guess the least amount of people will be equal to the number of welsh people who tune in to watch England, perhaps more as it will be a welsh team.

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  • 33. At 04:01am on 12 Jul 2009, puredrivelagain wrote:

    29,

    150 billion people across the world are watching the ashes??? That must be a record on so many levels...

    To top it off they are learning about Wales. Is that because our identity has been suppressed for so long by our benevolent English masters that no one knows we exist?

    More of the same please....

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  • 34. At 06:54am on 12 Jul 2009, John Henry wrote:


    Drivel, so much from the nationalists who are unable to accept that their perverse version of events is in fact hyperactive drivel.

    The Ashes series does not cost the taxpayer a penny in subsidy, it is a cash generator, the spin-off into local businesses is another matter, though immensely profitable.

    Do you suggest the cost of the millennium stadium be charged at each of the six nations games, of course not, any logic you might have had has been submerged in a turgid swamp of Welsh Nationalist rhetoric.


    As I wrote much earlier, #10, and getting back on thread, the coalition is in tatters; the only response Plaid separatist supporters have is to shift the defence of the indefensible to sport, well, just to remind you, we paid in full for our cricketing pleasure, Fisty Jones on the other hand treats the electorate and their representatives with contempt, and as a part time solicitor he would understand the concept of contempt.


    Nationalism, where its ultimate objective is separation, is much the same as an external aggressor that would invade and absorb a country, such bullies share the same contempt for people as does Fisty Jones.



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  • 35. At 07:09am on 12 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    # 27 Tomorrow's Wales is a 'yes' campaign

    The valid point made by Notonationalism seems to have been lost.

    Whether or not the Eisteddfod or Test Match should be funded from public money is arguable but for the reasons on this blog it is fully legitimate.

    What is unfortunately legitimate but scandalous is the public money used to pay for 24 events to publicise this Plaid/Labour coalition. That money could go to our public services.

    To fund a YES campaign in order to persuade people how to vote from lottery money and justify it by making an analogy with the NSPCC and RSPCC is totally misleading and absurd. It also devalues the fine work of both organisations.

    Persuading people how to vote is blatant political activity which is not a charitable purpose as stated by the relevant Charity Acts. It is a bigger abuse of the system than MPs expenses and needs to be subject to the same reform.

    That money could have gone to a worthy cause such as the NSPCC or other hard pressed charities who do an excellent job with disadvantaged children or the RSPCA.

    It is also shameless self publicity for the Supreme Leader who should use their personal name and make it clear that his involvement is 100% to that effect.

    For those of us who respect the right of the Welsh to self determination it raises serious questions about who runs the country as it is obvious that the real power is still with an unelected and unaccountable elite. The more power Wales gets the more powerful they are going to become.

    There is no doubt that the self determination issue is being frustrated by Westminster but the response from some raises the question of whether it is justified.

    My view is that we need more open government and public accountability so that once the fog of deception has cleared we can see clearly what is going on.

    Moreover, the Assembly needs to be seen to clean up not only AMs expenses but the waste of public money on self promotion, lottery money given to political groups such as Tomorrows Wales and the old boys network in public appointments who hand them the money.

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  • 36. At 07:16am on 12 Jul 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    Stony - I'm sorry but are you trying to say that the WAG didn't subsidise the test? Me, I think it was a good use of taxpayers money - as is subsidising the Eisteddfod.

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  • 37. At 07:47am on 12 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    Betsan said

    What happens if David Cameron decides that his Director of Communications Andy Coulson - formerly of the News of the World - is somehow tainted by the allegations surrounding the paper and should no longer remain in the job?

    We should make that question more relevant to Wales and ask what happens if the public decides that lottery money spent on Tomorrows Wales should have gone to a worthy cause.

    What is going to happen to the leading clergy whose church runs faith schools and higher education institutions who are making large numbers of staff redundant as a result of financial failure.

    Are our children and young people safe? Are they being to be taught right from wrong or learn how to give a "politicians answer"?

    What if they make a complaint? Are Christian values going to be supported or are they going to be the victims of the worse kind of political spin doctoring?

    Should we continue to provide public money without asking for extra safeguards and greater public accountability?

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  • 38. At 08:12am on 12 Jul 2009, John Henry wrote:


    Neocromwellian wrote .....

    Should we continue to provide public money without asking for extra safeguards and greater public accountability?


    This is us asking for democracy, clarity of purpose, honest politics.


    ..... and if we are asking for honest politics it suggests that politics is less than honest, dishonest in parts.


    Neo, you have the philosophical rights of it, and probably a core value to base a concerted opposition upon, time for a conference, in the Autumn.


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  • 39. At 09:06am on 12 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    Stoney wrote...

    ..... and if we are asking for honest politics it suggests that politics is less than honest, dishonest in parts.

    That is exactly what I am suggesting.

    But we should be heartened by this row in the Finance Committee as a sign that the democratic process is not yet dead and that dissent is still allowed!

    My view is that Welsh politics has become less than honest over the issue of devolution. However, there are those AMs in all parties who I may disagree with but I accept are genuine and act in good faith.

    If any religious group or leader wants to get involved in politics than they must accept the same scrutiny, judgements, and public opinions that goes for other politicians especially when they are being dishonest.

    You cannot take a step back, don your robes and adopt a holier than thou attitude when the going gets tough. The fact is that they are no better any other politician and may even lower the public standing of the organisation they represent.

    In Northern Ireland the clergy get involved in politics by standing for election and I suggest the Archbishop of Wales does the same. We can then vote him in or out of the political and democratic process instead of the political grandstanding.

    The same concerns apply to the educational establishments they run as politics, religion, and education is a dangerous mix that demands careful regulation. Moreover, recent financial failure and job losses in higher education establishments associated with the church merit a full investigation of what happened to our money.

    Unlike education authorities the church is not a public institution and therefore exempt from much of the legislation that exposes wrong doing such as the Freedom of Information Act.

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  • 40. At 09:33am on 12 Jul 2009, Lyn David Thomas wrote:

    Id love to know where Tomorrows Wales has ever campaigned or even suggested that Welsh Bishops should be in a Welsh House of Lords.

    What irregularities from the Big Lotteries Board, produce some evidence.

    No instead all we get is smear and inuendo of wrong doing, which is about as good as True Wales gets.

    Stonemason the Test was subsidised but generated huge amounts of money for the economy of Cardiff, just like the National Eisteddfod does for the town that it is based in and the International does for Llangollen. All three events are revenue positive - however all required public subsidy for the organisation that held them, in the case of the test match the organisers made a profit. In the case of the Eisteddfodau while the events may make small profits without the public subsidy they would not be able to exist even though the revenue generated by them far outweighs the cost to the public.

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  • 41. At 09:54am on 12 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #40

    The Archbishop of Wales has mentioned the fact he does not have a seat in the House of Lords so many times I came to the conclusion it was obviously an issue. Try searching the BBC for more info.

    I am nothing to do with True Wales but that did not stop you from the very smear and inuendo that you accuse others of doing.

    It is also a sign of the deep psychological denial of some that refuse to accept are some very serious issues concerning devolution that need to be addressed including Tomorrows Wales and the role of the Archbishop.

    You are also aware that I and probably others would love to publish the evidence but with the House Rules and defamation laws as they are it would never get past the moderator and result in threats of legal action.

    So the best we can do make generalised comments and call for more open government and tighter regulation.

    But that is obviously the last thing you want!


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  • 42. At 09:57am on 12 Jul 2009, mapexx wrote:

    Message 39....


    Neo, the comment below, from your message is extremely important...

    "If any religious group or leader wants to get involved in politics than they must accept the same scrutiny, judgements, and public opinions that goes for other politicians especially, (when they are being dishonest)".


    The last bit, bracketed, I leave for others to comment on, but I get very irate whenever I see a self promoting cult leader putting him/herself in front of the public as though they have some sort of divine right to do so.

    They promote a belief in an unproven entity, and stand on their promotion as though they spout facts and actuality, when all they spout is mythology and fanciful notions of a supreme being.

    They have the cheek of the very devil in doing so, and we are and have been subjected to their pressures for thousands of years.

    The time is now to extricate ourselves from their grasp on the moral high ground, especially when the religious leaderships have bee found wanting in most, if not all, aspects of social involvement.

    One one hand we have covert abuse, neglect and cruelty towards children over decades from at least one branch of the Christian dogma, on the other the promotion of terrorism by another group, that has no loyalty or patriotic allegiance to our western civilization, compounded by the reluctance or downright refusal of it's adherents to rein in the extremist element.

    We have another middle eastern religious group, steadfastly flying in the face of any sort of justice to their fellow citizenry, enforcing their religio/political pressures to as bad degree as those they oppose.

    Religion, even in it's mildest form has NO place whatsoever in the political sphere and should be totally not tolerated.

    Even if presented candidatures place themselves before the electorate.

    I see absolutely no difference between those who follow certain established religious tenets than those who follow witchcraft, the Moonies, Scientology or any of the multitude of generally non acceptable cults.

    Anyone who presents him/herself for election using their religious concepts as a basis for their 'political' aspirations should be refused access to the process.
    They will simply do as they have done for the last three millennia, screw things up.

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  • 43. At 10:32am on 12 Jul 2009, Notonationalism wrote:

    Here's the proof, Lyn. The two members on both committees should leap out at you:

    http://www.tomorrow-wales.org/conference
    http://www.tomorrow-wales.co.uk/aboutUs/Members%20of%20the%20Executive
    http://www.biglotteryfund.org.uk/wales/about-wal/committee_wal.htm

    Amongst the names on the Tomorrow's Wales website you will also find a large proportion of the names from whom the pre-selected (some might say 'planted') and closed questions were taken at the final All Wales Convention event in Cardiff.

    True Wales has a duty to expose the undemocratic methods being used by the political and ecclesiastical establishment.

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  • 44. At 10:36am on 12 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    mapexx wrote

    Religion, even in it's mildest form has NO place whatsoever in the political sphere and should be totally not tolerated.

    I am in complete agreement as the church seems to make more political rather than religious decisions.

    What I meant by suggesting they should stand for election there is some scrutiny of where the money comes from and how it is spent! Political parties are also subject to scrutiny and elected politicians now have proper inspection of their expenses.

    This may not be perfect but its better than what currently applies to those in Tomorrows Wales.

    On that issue back to #40

    The Sunday papers are full of speculation without evidence or proof as to the intentions of politicians and their respective parties and organisations based upon comments and innuendo.

    That is the nature of politics and that is the point I am making about Tomorrows Wales and the Archbishop. Therefore any speculation about their and his intentions with regard to bishops being in a Welsh House of Lords in a devolved Wales or some other reward for services rendered is fair comment.

    Its a dirty game politics and if you or they dont like it then you and they should stay out of it!

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  • 45. At 10:44am on 12 Jul 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    42#
    mapexx

    Religion, even in it's mildest form has NO place whatsoever in the political sphere and should be totally not tolerated.

    What total rubbish, our Trades Unions were started by Christians.
    Social justice as we know it is based on Christs teachings.
    They have prayers in Parliment before every sitting.
    You have to give evidence in court on the Bible, unless you ask not to.

    The American President's campaigns are based on their belief in God and God blessing America.

    The head of state the Queen is supposed to be there by divine right, lol. She is also head of the Church of England

    Are any of those extremist groups you mention based on social justice and love for their fellow man.
    Only Christianity does that, because some use their religion for their own personal prejudices and insecurities doesn't mean that all are the same.

    A lot of the good in the world has come from Christian political leaders. Also, a lot of the very bad and distasteful things that have happend throughout history.

    That at the end of the day is down to men using religion in the wrong way to gain power and control over people. This will always go on whether we like it or not because people in general are easily controlled and there will always be those who want to control.





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  • 46. At 11:24am on 12 Jul 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 34

    It is very telling that Stonemason is unable to accept that he is wrong. Very macho, very tory...

    They seem to hate any success brought about by our very own Welsh government. Very sad.

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  • 47. At 11:28am on 12 Jul 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 45,,,,



    You are entitled to believe in fairy tales as much as the next man.

    However, when entering the public domain you are NOT entitled to exert your belief across that of any other man, or woman.

    Especially in the most important fields that have domain over the education of our children, or our social life, both political and environmental.

    As for the remarks about Christian foundations to trades unions etc, so what.

    The persons who led the construction of the foundations of trades unionism were violently opposed by the established religions of the day.

    In other words they defied their religious mentors, and so commenced the inevitable breakdown of religious authority.

    Now, you may quote America, trades unions, the abolition of slavery and anything else, to try to support your point of view, but when taken to the bottom line, it is all based on mythology, unprovable notions, and is therefore mind warping rubbish.

    Or would you have us believe that altruism is solely, and only, practicable, if attached to religious dogma?


    Becauuse if that is what you believe, then I must be some sort of freak, as I violently oppose all religious activity, and belief in divine entities, yet have always been available to do good things towards my fellow man.

    Christianity, or any other religion is based entirely on falsehood.

    No matter how America, Europe, the middle east, or wherever else may wander in terms of society, or community values.

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  • 48. At 12:08pm on 12 Jul 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    47
    mapexx

    as I violently oppose all religious activity, and belief in divine entities, yet have always been available to do good things towards my fellow man.

    Hmm, Yes well

    Contradiction there somewhere I think.

    I wasn't refering to modern day Unionism but the organisation of people banding together for their rights and justice, which yes, was against the established Church.
    These were people who broke away from that and became the Chapels and the social thinkers of those days.

    Community values, all people being equal and sharing 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'. 'Give to the poor'. Now, where have I heard that before,
    oh yes, Jesus said it didn't he

    I suppose you could say the type of people I spoke about in my previous comment are the ones who took us to war in Iraq on falsehoods and used God and religion for their own ends.

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  • 49. At 12:11pm on 12 Jul 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    47
    Mind warping rubbish

    Oh yes, isn't that what Communism is

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  • 50. At 1:03pm on 12 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #45

    I do not wish to criticise anyones faith or what motivates them to do good deeds for society, religion or any philosophy in this context is perfectly acceptable.

    But what history has taught us is that its the middle men you need to watch out for!

    You mentioned America, the involvement of extreme Christian right wing in politics is a very serious cause for concern and we should not let it happen here. That is why in principle I support the comment made by mapexx.

    I have observed that the indigenous Welsh in Welsh speaking areas seem to have a seven centuries old occupied country mindset that any complaint against the establishment is a waste of time! The reason for this is because you may as well bang your head against a brick wall for all the good its going to do you.

    You may think because you are English this does not apply to you but you would be very wrong. Nothing worse than a trouble maker especially an English trouble maker!

    So who is responsible for this mindset? Its obviously a means of social control to enforce English colonial rule, together with Tory landowners, the Anglican church and the social conditioning associated with access to higher education.

    If you believe in the title of this blog the Brotherhood of Man you must agree this situation is wholly unacceptable. The power of the Tory landowners has been broken and I fully accept that the current political party has moved on. English colonial rule is waning under devolution but we still have Crown Immunity.

    That leaves the Anglican Church and higher education which in some cases are are bound so closely together you cannot see daylight between them.

    So why at a time when there are record numbers applying to go to university is Welsh higher education in decline. Too many trouble makers or people voting with their feet as staying away is the only way of making a point.

    We recently had staff redundancies at Cardiff and now 46 redundancies at the University of Wales Lampeter following its forced merger with Trinity University College Carmarthen and a 2 million pound cut in its funding.

    I dont see the pro devolutionists tackling this issue for to do so would mean they are attacking one of their main allies but with friends like these who needs enemies. The Finance Committee should obtain a copy of the Haines Watts report into the finances at Lampeter so they can ask the questions what went wrong, who was held to account and what has been done about it? However, the chances of getting any answers without changing the law to force the information out of them are non existent.

    Once they discover what has been going on it would cause some very serious shouting with Rhodri in the firing line!

    Following this catastrophe, elements of the same organisation is also attempting to change the way I am governed presuming to do so for my benefit.

    We have all heard of the saying beware of Greeks bearing gifts, when its the church; be afraid!

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  • 51. At 1:35pm on 12 Jul 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    50
    neocromwellian

    You mentioned America, the involvement of extreme Christian right wing in politics is a very serious cause for concern and we should not let it happen here.

    I believe that is more or less what I said, about using religion for their own ends and control of people, brainwashing for use of a better word and it is not just the middle men.

    You did actualy read what I said because in your own words, that is more or less what I did say.

    Therefore how you can agree with mapexx and me I am sorry I find it difficult to understand.

    Please don't just believe the power of the Tory landowners is broken. It is still there with Labour controled Councils. Try going up against them as the establishment and see where you get. They are the people giving away our land for opencast sites, windfarms, turning one South Wales coastal area into an area of very high polution.

    You may think because you are English this does not apply to you but you would be very wrong. Nothing worse than a trouble maker especially an English trouble maker!

    If this refers to me, I can assure you I am Welsh and proud of it, proud of it's history and culture. I also am not a Church man, but Chapel.

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  • 52. At 1:39pm on 12 Jul 2009, puredrivelagain wrote:

    Puredrivel rises from his "turgid nationalist swamp" (thanks stoney, great phrase) to score some cheap points for the nationalists...

    47 Mappexx wrote:

    "Now, you may quote America, trades unions, the abolition of slavery and anything else, to try to support your point of view, but when taken to the bottom line, it is all based on mythology, unprovable notions, and is therefore mind warping rubbish."

    ...much like the unionist political rhetoric on these blogs :)

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  • 53. At 3:14pm on 12 Jul 2009, christiancitizen wrote:

    So religion has no place in public life or politics? Looking at the state of Wales - i.e. Drug abuse,record levels of alcohol abuse,family breakdown,crime, youth violence,rising levels of STDs sky-high teenage pregnancy rates - it seems that there is a great need for it. Secularism doesn't seem to be doing us much good at the moment.

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  • 54. At 3:20pm on 12 Jul 2009, puredrivelagain wrote:

    Amen christian citizen.

    The westminster model doesn't seem to be working very well does it. Time for a new approach.

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  • 55. At 3:20pm on 12 Jul 2009, Notonationalism wrote:

    'These were people who broke away from that and became the Chapels and the social thinkers of those days.'

    A lot of feminists wouldn't agree with you, Alfspace. I remember my grandmother telling me what tyrants a lot of Chapel ministers were. There is a lot of good in Christianity itself. The problem lies with what I always call the Sanhedrin syndrome, where leaders of any given Church imagine themselves to be the voice of God without considering that they might be wrong.

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  • 56. At 3:52pm on 12 Jul 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    55

    Notonationalism

    Which is what I have already said, I will say it again.

    People abuse their position and use their religion for their own ends to control and have power over others. That is not Christianity there is a vast difference

    A lot of feminists wouldn't agree with you, Alfspace.

    I can not disagree with you, but let us not forget, women within the Chapels were some of the worse for being tyrants against other women in their belief. They were probably the strongest opposition to freedom for women.

    The same as Welsh people are the strongest opposition to Wales having a greater control over itself.

    I may add that the Sanhedrin syndome as you call it is not just with the Church. political leaders throught history and even today can be classed in that category. Do not they all go to war saying God is on their side and they will have victory, to control their populace and get them on side. What happens when one side loses. Whose side do they say God is on then.

    Faith is simple, it is man who makes it difficult.

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  • 57. At 4:28pm on 12 Jul 2009, nomorepowers wrote:

    Whilst we've diverted into an evangelical and religious theme why don't we ask the Socialist Nationalist, Lyn Thomas how he can justify his party selling themselves for "thirty pieces of silver" and then have the audacity to blog on here with some kind of superior, arrogant attitude towards anyone who differs with his opinion.

    At the last AWC meeting in Cardiff which LT was present, Bishop Morgan was involved in Party Politics. He spent 5 minutes lambasting the Labour Party. I didn't hear him say a negative word against any other party. Also fellow bloggers will remember the 50 thousand job advertised by Tomorrow's Wales to promote further powers for the Assembly paid for by the Joseph Rowntree Charity. What happened to these christian bodies who advocate against gambling. Their resolve didn't last long when the lottery came into being, just look at the churches new roofs when you pass by or look into where they invest their millions.

    Ethical investing I think not.





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  • 58. At 4:58pm on 12 Jul 2009, Notonationalism wrote:

    'Sanhedrin syndome as you call it is not just with the Church. political leaders throught history and even today can be classed in that category'.

    And who more so than Archbishop Barry Morgan? An unelected self-appointed politician,disguised as a man of the cloth, who claims to care for the poor but is happy to raid the coffers of various charities to further his nationalist cause.

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  • 59. At 4:59pm on 12 Jul 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    57

    nomorepowers

    Wow, can't argue about that, though not just the lottery money, also the the bribes that opencast owners and windpower companies are giving to the communities, so they are allowed to desicrate the countryside of Wales.

    Shamefuly my own Chapel has succumbed to those bribes. It was either that or close. Ethicaly or moraly, I honestly don't know which would make the communities worse off.

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  • 60. At 5:13pm on 12 Jul 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    58

    Notonationalism

    Why is it that when you have lost the argument you have to go off subject and throw abuse at someone.

    If Archbishop Morgan was not with Tomorrow Wales, but on the other side of the argument, I am sure you wouldn't be throwing around the personal abuse against him.

    There are many in the different Denominations withinin Wales who agree with more powers, it his not just him.

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  • 61. At 6:57pm on 12 Jul 2009, John Henry wrote:

    #46

    I have emailed the England and Wales Cricket Board asking whether the ashes series has been subsidised by the Welsh Assembly Government, In the event that it has been subsidised I will apologise to you and criticise those that would spend the taxes of the poor of Llanelli.

    In my view it is not a success to pick the pockets of the poor to create an illusion of success, Welsh or any other government. Such an occurrence is indeed very sad.

    #53

    Religion, no matter which flavour, does not have a monopoly on morality, neither are current times any worse than earlier periods, it's an illusion of grand scale.

    I refer you to the Christian crusades, William Hogarth's observations of the 18th century, the recordings published in the Blue Books. It is poignant that the authors of the Blue Books were Christians, much reviled by the supporters of nationalism in this blog, no-matter, in each example you witness the barbarity of the human race of christians.

    Then there are the secular giants that have done no harm, Thomas Paine, author of The Rights of Man and The Age of Reason was secular, a giant amongst mankind, secular to his last breath.

    It is honesty, clarity, care for the little people that seems to have no place in public life or politics, no-matter where your political feet stand. Currently politicians use the politics of fear through the media as support, a century or more ago it was the religious fears that were used to control the little people, the same techniques are used in the middle east today, Marx was indeed correct when he wrote in the preface in the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right.....

    Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.


    If you care about people, show it through actions not intentions, intentions are cheap, and our politicians are cheapest.


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  • 62. At 7:47pm on 12 Jul 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    61

    TheStonemason

    It is strange you choose karl Marx for your comment as a Tory when he argued 'that capitalism, like previous socioeconomic systems, will produce internal tensions which will lead to its destruction'. He may well have been right.


    Isn't that what also happened and is happening to communism around the globe.

    If as he said 'religion is the opium of the people' the only way communism can flourish is by control and fear.

    Control, fear and lies it is what they all do to gain and keep power.

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  • 63. At 7:52pm on 12 Jul 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 61

    Stonemason,

    I don't know how the ECB will respond to your (perhaps intentionally?)very narrow question. However, what I am saying is that WAG helped financially with the bidding process. The ECB may not regard that as subsidising the series. But money is money, public money is public money and more importantly investment is investment. Your philosophy seems to deny that investment in any sporting or cultural events can ever be justified. Is that right?

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  • 64. At 8:16pm on 12 Jul 2009, mapexx wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 65. At 8:20pm on 12 Jul 2009, John Henry wrote:


    #62,

    your .....

    Control, fear and lies it is what they all do to gain and keep power. Seems so.


    #63,

    Not a narrow question, I only referred to "the five day event" and "An ashes series", why would I ask any other question ?

    No point scoring here, what is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I wouldn't want to benefit off the backs of the poor of Llanelli, particularly for hobbies, what is the situation with Rugby, is this subsidised by the WAG?

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  • 66. At 8:31pm on 12 Jul 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 65

    I repeat - and it's very simple - large amounts of WAG money were used to secure the event for Cardiff in the first place. Just ask the good people at Old Trafford who were not pleased!! But, as you would probably say, isn't that business?

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  • 67. At 9:18pm on 12 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    # 51

    This is a highly complex situation full of contradictions, as I see it one of the major forces of social control in both England and Wales is the Anglican church and yet it is part of the political pressure group Tomorrows Wales.

    Therefore, it is open to political speculation and I must ask the question is it trying to exclude itself from the public mood for reform not just of itself but also the its institutions that receive public finance.

    If so does this explain why the higher education institutions associated with the church are failing, and can we afford to let it happen just because they support devolution as the effect on our economy could be devastating. Could it also explain the reluctance of the Assembly to intervene on behalf of Joe Public to account for what they are doing with our money.

    I am not referring to you as a trouble maker nor do I wish to knock your sense of pride in who you are. I was simply highlighting that those who challenge the status quo including the church are portrayed as such and worse.

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  • 68. At 9:33pm on 12 Jul 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    TheStonemason

    #65

    Glad you think so.

    Does that include the Tories as well

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  • 69. At 9:36pm on 12 Jul 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2009/07/12/ashes-has-put-wales-on-the-map-says-council-chief-91466-24131650/
    Cardiff council are delighted with the way things are going, estimates are now indicating The Ashes may have boosted the local economy by a whopping £116 million.
    Sorry nats, this might not seem fair, but you can never ever have the same degree of separation that Scotland will get.
    We are a totally different country, blame the industrial revolution, when folk from all over Britain ( especially England ) poured into Wales.
    A few years back HTV Wales ran a mini-series on Cardiff, at one point it was mentioned that in the 1861 Cardiff census, two thirds of the population were English.
    Anyone who cares can also check this, the John's Newport directory, was a large informative tome issued by Newport council. I won't bore you all with the political machinations of once English Monmouthshire, but the Newport directory up until 1970 advertised Newport, as an English town.
    I was born in 1965, and like a large number of Monmouthshlre folk will forever be English.
    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/tm_objectid=17734421&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=why-the-people-of-shrewsbury-are--more-welsh--than-cardiff-name_page.html

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  • 70. At 9:50pm on 12 Jul 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 58

    "And who more so than Archbishop Barry Morgan? An unelected self-appointed politician,disguised as a man of the cloth, who claims to care for the poor but is happy to raid the coffers of various charities to further his nationalist cause."

    So, notonationalism takes us back to the paranoid wilds of Montana once again. Very funny but very sad...

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  • 71. At 9:50pm on 12 Jul 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    Neocromwellian

    #67
    I am not referring to you as a trouble maker nor do I wish to knock your sense of pride in who you are.

    You may think because you are English this does not apply to you but you would be very wrong. Nothing worse than a trouble maker especially an English trouble maker.

    Sounded like it to me, if that is pride then I stand accused.

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  • 72. At 10:12pm on 12 Jul 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    TheStonemason
    #65
    Re 62
    It is strange once again you don't or you can not answer my comment. You just pick on that one line and not answer the rest of it.

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  • 73. At 06:06am on 13 Jul 2009, John Henry wrote:


    #72

    Not strange, choice ....

    you previously asked "Does that include the Tories as well ", to my ..... "Seems so."

    No question to answer.

    .... pointless. What else is there to say other than Plaid politicians are no different to any other, except they would take the Welsh people to a dark place.


    #66

    It's not WAG money, it's the money from the poor of Llanelli, and Wrexham etc..... it is called tax receipts. And the Ashes series has not been supported until confirmation is given, you might like to ask your friends how they think subsidy was provided.



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  • 74. At 07:23am on 13 Jul 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    Stony - apologies - it wasn't three million quid - it was one point two million as part of Glamorgan's bid to the EWCB.

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  • 75. At 07:40am on 13 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    # 71

    I can only take responsibility for what I said not your interpretation or what it sounded like to you, therefore if you choose to take offence for reasons known only to yourself then that is your responsibility not mine.

    For further clarification why dont you complain o the Church in Wales over the comments in this blog that you are in agreement with.

    See how far you get and then you will fully comprehend what I am talking about being labeled a trouble maker or worse.

    Notonationalism said

    And who more so than Archbishop Barry Morgan? An unelected self-appointed politician,disguised as a man of the cloth, who claims to care for the poor but is happy to raid the coffers of various charities to further his nationalist cause.


    You Replied

    Wow, can't argue about that, though not just the lottery money, also the the bribes that opencast owners and windpower companies are giving to the communities, so they are allowed to desicrate the countryside of Wales.

    Shamefuly my own Chapel has succumbed to those bribes. It was either that or close. Ethicaly or moraly, I honestly don't know which would make the communities worse off.


    So why dont you do something about it?

    I already have and was simply stating the treatment I received for doing so.

    Dont presume to judge me until you have the courage of your convictions to do the same!

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  • 76. At 08:03am on 13 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #70

    What is sad is that the Church in Wales seems to have positioned itself as an ally of devolution in order to avoid the obvious need for reform in the institutions that it governs.

    Higher education is a particular cause for concern and while some institutions are thriving those governed or strongly associated with the church are in serious trouble with worse to come.

    This situation affects all of us as a strong university base is one of the cornerstones of a strong economy, if they suffer so do we.

    They rely on our money so we need to know what went wrong, who was held to account, and what is being done to make sure it never happens again.

    What is sadder still is that people just let them get away with it.

    It would appear that IWJ would not have any of this trouble if he was ordained!

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  • 77. At 08:07am on 13 Jul 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    Neocromwellian

    #75

    Looking back I did misread your comment and I appologise.
    perhapes it was my pride after all afecting my sensitivity.

    Your.

    So why dont you do something about it?

    I already have and was simply stating the treatment I received for doing so.


    Point taken.

    I have tried to do something, there are some who agree, but won't support you or want to rock anyones boat, while those that don't can get very nasty about things and make it very personal.

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  • 78. At 08:50am on 13 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    On the 2nd of April 2008 the Church in Wales rejected a bill to introduce women Bishops because to do so would have sanctioned what they regarded as an institutionalised "schism".

    The word "schism" is most frequently used about a religious division that occurs with a religious body with a defined organisation and hierarchy.

    Does the same apply to woman Assembly Members? Are they creating a schism in the Assembly when they could be at home doing the ironing? Is this the cause of the breakdown in the traditional family?

    Getting involved in politics caused a schism in the church but that did not stop him from doing it. So we must ask was it to try and stop declining church numbers and has the result made it worse. Or was there some other motive because frankly this attitude has no place in any society.

    #57 If the Archbishop was having a go at Labour was it over their policy to introduce more woman MPs? Or was he trying to exploit the schism that is devolution? It has caused enough ill feelings at it is we do not need anybody making it worse.

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  • 79. At 08:50am on 13 Jul 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 77....


    quote...

    " I have tried to do something, there are some who agree, but won't support you or want to rock anyones boat, while those that don't can get very nasty about things and make it very personal"....


    One of the major problems with religious organisations, the heirarchy, at any level from the top to the bottom, fully believe in common with the RC's, that they or their higher leaderships are infallible.

    What is written, in their termionology, is 'the law' and must be followed to the letter.

    No room for compromise, as compromise is seen as dilution of the power in hand.


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  • 80. At 08:53am on 13 Jul 2009, mapexx wrote:

    PS to 79....


    That is why democratic election process is valuable, it removes the belief that 'divine right' ensures perpetual overgovernance by a single element within society.

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  • 81. At 09:16am on 13 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #77

    I also apologise for any misunderstanding and I am pleased we have sorted that out.

    I respect the fact you tried to do something and have every sympathy with the response you got from others.

    For the reasons I have stated the fear of authority is instilled in people and that is what we "all" need to change.

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  • 82. At 09:25am on 13 Jul 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    mapexx

    #79/80

    I am of the Undeb Yr Annibynwyr Cymraeg (The Union of Welsh Independants).Sorry if the Welsh offends but that is the organisational name

    The officers of each Chapel are democraticaly elected by the members of each Chapel. we do have a Union for which the Officers of that are elected to their positions by the overall membership.

    You state.

    What is written, in their termionology, is 'the law' and must be followed to the letter.

    No room for compromise, as compromise is seen as dilution of the power in hand.


    What is written in the rules of our denomination is guidance not law, rules which every organisation has to have, or there will be anarchy and confusion.

    Therfore we do not see ourselves as infalible, because life is all about compromise and accepting that other peoples views may not be the same as your own. Unlike politics which doesn't allow for that.

    I suppose the religious dogma that we have with some is no different to the political dogma we have from others.

    Though from your responses, I suppose you would see political dogma as alright, as long as it is agreable to you, but anything religious as not.

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  • 83. At 09:49am on 13 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    Not Doing His Job Properly?

    Adamant it is right for an Anglican leader to enter political debate, he said: If an archbishop isnt interested in the life of the nation, in the life of the poor, in all kinds of issues that go on, hes not really doing his job properly.

    Read more here

    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2009/04/11/credit-crunch-is-wake-up-call-for-society-says-archbishop-of-wales-barry-morgan-91466-23362321/

    Given falling church attendance and the mess it is making of its own responsibilities, I suggest the Archbishop concentrates on the day job because we the taxpayer cannot afford to bail out the financial failures of the church.

    Here is more

    Archbishop Morgan said: If we were to have imposed the political settlement on any Commonwealth nation that has been imposed on Wales, there would have been a huge outcry. Because, I say, this isnt right, this isnt fair, this is immoral.

    Commonwealth countries were granted independence therefore such a settlement would not even been considered as being relevant, and to suggest that it would have been is total nonsense and misleading.

    So what about independence for Wales and the right to self determination?

    He said

    Plaid has a new campaign to raise support for independence but he regards the concept as a red herring at this time.

    Now I am confused, he condemns the Welsh settlement as it does not give full independence the same as commonwealth countries and yet he thinks independence is a red herring.

    We have enough of this spin doctoring from politicians we dont need Archbishops doing it as well.

    As far as being immoral is concerned I seem to recall a piece in the bible about throwing stones.

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  • 84. At 10:34am on 13 Jul 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 79

    mapexx is wrong here. No church or denomination other than the Roman Catholic Church believes in a doctrine of infallibility. People's interpretation of infallibility as taught by Rome is, however, as with mapexx here, often confused and wrong. Since the doctrine was accepted, and again I'm no expert, I believe that this infallibility has only been used once, to proclaim the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. If I'm wrong, I'm more than happy to be corrected.

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  • 85. At 11:23am on 13 Jul 2009, puredrivelagain wrote:

    Where's that Stonemason? Stoney, I have to educate you on something core to a great many of these debates. Apologies for going off topic here.

    In the "Not like that. Like this" blog you stated:

    "Indeed, why should we put up with second rate governance, this shoddy coalition should be condemned to the same fate as Poynings' Law, obscurity."

    As I, and several others, have pointed out on many occasions the Government of Wales Act 2006 IS Poyning's Law re-packaged for Wales.

    Learn, digest and use accordingly. Do not be conned by your tory party spin. You know it makes sense, boyo :D

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  • 86. At 12:25pm on 13 Jul 2009, penddu wrote:

    85 The eventual fate of Poynings Law was Irish independence - I am happy to accept the same fate for Wales.

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  • 87. At 12:32pm on 13 Jul 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    All the anti Welsh agenda people say what a waste of money the Assembly of Wales is and complain about grants given out by them for anything Welsh.

    They then tell us we should stay with the English governence well perhapes this will make you all think about how great they are.

    http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/090713/140/ins99.html

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  • 88. At 12:34pm on 13 Jul 2009, puredrivelagain wrote:

    Penddu - Not sure I could another 500 years, the bones might be too creaky to enjoy the celebrations ;)

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  • 89. At 12:36pm on 13 Jul 2009, puredrivelagain wrote:

    p.s. 86 - I live in Ireland and it's the best thing they ever did. Great country and happy friendly people who are proud of what they have and what they achieved.

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  • 90. At 3:56pm on 13 Jul 2009, Notonationalism wrote:

    Alfspace - I think you'll find that the RBS is the Royal Bank of Scotland. Think about it.

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  • 91. At 4:55pm on 13 Jul 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    #90

    Notonationalism

    The significance being to the article?

    Oh no! please dont tell us.

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  • 92. At 5:55pm on 13 Jul 2009, Ian wrote:

    Will Huw Lewis release the written confirmation that his party put back the date of the next phase of the A465 in 2005?

    Will he then confirm that the current coalition has in fact not changed that date?

    Will he then finally make a point on this issue that is relevant and not just twisted and partisan?

    Finall, will he then ask why his party in London is ripping off Wales an annual total of £300 million on a needs based formula, according to a recently published independent report?

    thought not.

    After all, what can £300 million buy these days? , apart from quite a few miles of dualled A465.

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  • 93. At 6:16pm on 13 Jul 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 82...


    As it seems the moderators do not take kindly to antipathy to religion, (I wonder why), I shall, by taklinmg the quote from your message, attempt to make it clear where I stand both on politics and religion.

    quote...

    "...Though from your responses, I suppose you would see political dogma as alright, as long as it is agreable to you, but anything religious as not....."

    Political dogma is an anathema to me, as it tends to be too restrictive in it's terms of reference and thereby, application.

    I therefore refuse to b ecome a member of ANY political party for that reason...Dogma...

    With regards religion... why would I, a normal, intelligent, human being with an uncorrupted unpolluted brain and mind within that brain, succumb to the tripe expounded by those who themselves are far too immature to accept that the belief in the existence of a totally unproven entity is itself one of the major causes of world discord.

    Both political dogma, and religion, dispensed with, in a couple of paragraphs....


    Apart from that, as I said before you believe what you will, in both, but do not lay it on me, in the expectation I will followe either.

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  • 94. At 6:31pm on 13 Jul 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 93

    "Both political dogma, and religion, dispensed with, in a couple of paragraphs...." !!!!

    So, who believes in infallibility now?

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  • 95. At 7:07pm on 13 Jul 2009, John Henry wrote:


    #85 thought he might educate the Stonemason .....

    when he reminds me that previously I wrote ..... In the "Not like that. Like this" post

    "Indeed, why should we put up with second rate governance, this shoddy coalition should be condemned to the same fate as Poynings' Law, obscurity."

    ..... and then proceeds to suggest .....

    As I, and several others, have pointed out on many occasions the Government of Wales Act 2006 IS Poynings' Law re-packaged for Wales.


    ..... but each time you make reference there is the obvious flawed logic that fails to remind people that Poynings' Law was introduced during 1494, and marked the beginning of direct Tudor rule in Ireland, whereas in the United Kingdom of the 21st century we have democracy .....

    ...... and the beginnings of devolved administration, soon to be modified by the Conservatives who see great opportunities for all the people rather than the nationalist minorities who wish for the destruction of our country.


    A small point, I was referring to this shoddy coalition in the comparison with Poynings' Law and obscurity.


    Plaid has been outed in a big way, by the next election it would be a rash party that would align themselves with Plaid Cymru the Separation Party. There is much more to governance than the musings of Adam P and chums, there are the little people who need justice not the bullying of Fisty Jones and the like.


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  • 96. At 7:25pm on 13 Jul 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    mapexx

    #93

    Apart from that, as I said before you believe what you will, in both, but do not lay it on me, in the expectation I will followe either.

    I am not an Evangelist and I do not believe I have intimated I am evangelising to you. My comments were only replies to the statements put in the first place by others about religions position in politics.

    My position is still as I commented previously in 82.

    Therfore we do not see ourselves as infalible, because life is all about compromise and accepting that other peoples views may not be the same as your own. Unlike politics which doesn't allow for that.

    I accept your views and respect them, though it doesn't seem as if you respect mine.

    You don't know me, so you have no idea why I have a faith, it is not a blind faith. I do have a brain and a mind of my own and I consider myself a fairly intelegent person, though some may argue that.

    Also I am far from being immature, one time perhapes, but I have learnt and achived maturity the hard way in life.

    So please do not place everyone who has faith in your narrow minded category.

    Once again as I have stated. Faith is simple, it is man who makes it difficult, as he does in most things in life.

    As for dogma it can take many positions in life, it could be said your attitude towards the Assembly and the culture of Wales could possibly be be a dogmatic one.


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  • 97. At 8:39pm on 13 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #92 If you are saying they are all as bad as one another then I am in total agreement, we should have all the information out in the open.

    However, with open and transparent governemnt we have to start somewhere and accept that in some cases some peole may have leaned the error of their ways! Yes could be a case of serious wishful thinking.

    Therefore, those who believe in more open politics and government should expose this kind of behaviour, irrespective of what side of the argument you are on.

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  • 98. At 10:23pm on 13 Jul 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 94...


    In the matter of religion I do claim infallibility, so go blow it out of your ear pal. Unless that is, you can break my hold on that infallibility.


    Message 96....


    I make no issue of your personal beliefs, but I maintain that in publicly professing your 'faith', (what an immature admission that is anyway), you are attempting to bend me to accept that your belief is valid, when it is no more valid than one believing that fairies exist at the bottom of the garden.


    As stated, I accept you may believe whatever suits you, but by the mere fact you make it public, you are crossing a boundary.

    You are attempting to create a situation that cannot be proven by any sort of logical argument.


    Finally, there is NO place for fantastic notions, or fantasy, no matter it's source, in politics, which deals purely and simply, under democracy, for the purpose of the construction a social system of wellbeing for all, not those who prefer to claim they are subjected to acting under some set of principles laid out by religious mentors from centuries past.

    For myself, I am quite capable of deciding my own moral principles, that they may coincide with a few of those enacted over millennia, is no more than standard moral principles that would maintain under any system, with or without, religious input.

    That there is, or is not, a divine entity has nothing to do with humanity.

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  • 99. At 10:41pm on 13 Jul 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    mapexx

    It is certainley not my intention to convert you or any one else I have never done that with my children, they have their own minds and views on that and I respect them for it as they respect me for mine.

    No I can not logicaly explain my faith.

    The same as couldn't logicaly explain my faith in a surgeon who could stop me from dying or a bus driver on getting me to my destination safely.

    It is just something that is there, that you feel and accept.

    As stated, I accept you may believe whatever suits you, but by the mere fact you make it public, you are crossing a boundary.

    As for making it public I was only replying to comments already made that boundry was made by others. It is you that are drawing me further in to this conversation. Though if I am offending you so much then I will end it here.

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  • 100. At 10:56pm on 13 Jul 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 99

    Alf, you are not being in the least offensive. In fact, your civil, meek and generous tone does seem to be at the opposite pole to some who claim that their own moral systems are sufficient.

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  • 101. At 11:19pm on 13 Jul 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 98

    "In the matter of religion I do claim infallibility, so go blow it out of your ear pal. Unless that is, you can break my hold on that infallibility."

    ...oh, and it's nice to see you so chilled after your holiday.

    Humility clearly not on your list then.

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  • 102. At 06:04am on 14 Jul 2009, John Henry wrote:


    Infallible FiDafydd, IF for short.

    Wiki tell us .....

    Infallibility, from Latin origin ('in', not + 'fallere', to deceive),.


    The problem I have with religion is there was never a witness to the interaction with a deity, much like the home grown Ieuan Wyn Jones who prefers his decision making to be clouded in a biblical amount of secrecy, an attempt at deception.

    Fortunately we have moved on from the Garden of Eden, except for Jones and chums who would have us believe there is a new Eden on offer by Plaid Cymru the Separation Party, much like the characters of the bible they act out a fantasy, but in Welshness.



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  • 103. At 06:15am on 14 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #82 I am of the Undeb Yr Annibynwyr Cymraeg (The Union of Welsh Independants). As early as 1950 it called for a Welsh Parliament.

    Now there is nothing wrong with that as they have freedom of speech and they did it without getting involved in political activity or a grant from the lottery.

    I am an East Anglian and while I am not a religious man there are strong family ties to the Congregational Church which is also an Independent Church and there must be something in the genes.

    Congregationalists believe that. The bishop, archbishop, moderator, or church structures of this world play no part in our churchmanship.

    In the past they were also fined for failing to attend Anglican services!

    #84 No church or denomination other than the Roman Catholic Church believes in a doctrine of infallibility

    In theory are right, but to many people the Anglican Church and the Church of Rome are one of the same and a recent report suggested reunification.

    If you have ever had the misfortune to encounter the Anglican church on an issue of social justice you will find the issue of infallibility more or a serious ego problem than a doctrine but the result is just the same.

    They must be right and know more than you, but if you are right and know more than them then the result is that they will defy natural justice, Christianity, common decency and logic to make that point.

    These people have no place in religion let alone politics.

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  • 104. At 07:35am on 14 Jul 2009, Ian wrote:

    95,
    I cannot currently conceive a situation where the Tories will ever be in power in Wales, even in a coalition. That must be very depressing for you.

    97,
    You have a point about being open but in this case, it has been used by Huw Lewis and Alun Davies to have a dig at IWJ when IWJ appears to have been sitting on his hands to protect a Labour Minister in the coalition who made the decision in the first place (Andrew Davies). Lewis and Davies know this but still see it as a political opportunity to have a go. This is what I find so disappointing.

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  • 105. At 08:12am on 14 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #18 Lyn_Thomas said Now if Tomorrows Wales was to endorse a political party you would have a case to answer.

    #57 Nomorepowers said At the last AWC meeting in Cardiff which LT was present, Bishop Morgan was involved in Party Politics. He spent 5 minutes lambasting the Labour Party.

    In political terms what is the difference between endorsing a political party so people vote for it and picking one out for special criticism to incite people to vote against it so other parties especially Plaid benefits?

    The answer is none, so by your own definition Lyn_Thomas the Archbishop has a case to answer. But it will be for the regulator under the Charity Act 2006 who as a result of a complaint that could strip the church of its charitable status to decide.

    This association with Tomorrows Wales and the church has led to an attitude of divine right to secrecy with regard to the way in which we are being governed.

    People are right to criticise IWJ for this over roads, but to be fair the First Minister also has a case to answer for doing exactly the same thing regarding universities.

    So once we know whats happening with our roads let the Finance Committee talk about the disaster that is facing some of our universities and the role of the Anglican church in their governance and the divine exemption to account for the appropriate use of our money.

    Assuming we can have the same demand from AMs to see the Haines Watts report and the Archbishop gives the church the same lambasting as he gave Labour for the loss of jobs and the damage that is being done to our economy.

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  • 106. At 08:27am on 14 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #104

    Thanks for the information whether you agree with it or not it gives a sense of balance in this dispute, and from your comment it would seem that IWJ has compromised himself to protect somebody else who should account for his actions.

    There are other Labour Ministers being protected by the First Minister over the failure in some of our universities, and the implications are far worse than the issues involved here.

    It is natural for people to protect their own side and the coalition however, I still have radical socialist values and believe their comes a point whereby some people should be fed to the wolves. Especially when it comes to protecting a corrupt elite!

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  • 107. At 12:15pm on 14 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #104

    I thought about IWJ being forced to sit on his hands in the name of coalition unity and came up with a way for him to rectify the situation and do a bit for us at the same time.

    This is from the WAG website.

    Ieuan Wyn Jones, Minister for the Economy and Transport, said the proactive approach taken by the Assembly Government helped provide a focus for Welsh businesses that were looking ahead and planning to be in pole position when there was an upturn in the economy.

    When Gordon was Chancellor he said and he was right that one of the cornerstones of a successful economy and inward investment was a strong university base.

    But we have recent news reports of serious jobs losses not just in large institutions such as Cardiff but small ones like the University of Wales Lampeter. The economic affect on a rural area can be devastating.

    There is a secret report by consultants Haines Watts that contains some disturbing evidence. As Minister for the Economy IWJ should insist on a copy so we can all know what went wrong who was held to account and what was done about it? Unless somebody does something we can only assume further job losses are on the way.

    Moreover, why has Lampeter just received a 2 million pound cut in their budget, which is given on our behalf by a Quango the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales (HEFCW). Its Stoney's worse nightmare come true, which means we have no say what so ever in anything that concerns us or how our money is being wasted!

    Even academics claim the only way to bring maladministration to light is by writing and blogging about it. The English regulator for Universities the Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) has stated public concern that members of University Councils do not know what their job is and that the role of independent council members acting as a safe guard is non existent and a serious cause for concern.

    So who takes notice of all this when the WAG and every one else responsible for standards and regulations turns a blind eye?

    Well I can name one its called Dow Jones, famous for it Wall Street index which is a News Corporation Company whose Mission is To be the best provider of business content and information services across all consumer and enterprise media channels.

    The damage that is being done to our economy is immeasurable, lets hope IWJ does not sit on his hands over this issue.

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  • 108. At 1:53pm on 14 Jul 2009, mapexx wrote:


    Message 99...

    quote...

    "...The same as couldn't logically explain my faith in a surgeon who could stop me from dying or a bus driver on getting me to my destination safely....".



    There is a vast gulf between believing that life was set in motion by some sort of invisible, unapproachable, and certainly unprovable entity, and having the nous to trust your well-being to a third party, be he surgeon, bus driver, pilot, or street sweeper.

    They are all of your kind, visible, touchable, more or less skilled in their capabilities, and approachable, according to your needs.

    The fact of the matter is, thanks to the current system we live under, a certain select sector of our establishment, have come to believe they are, as the divinity you lay claim to, unapproachable, infallible,and more to the point, self regarding as in place by some sort of divine right, to use our tax, system and social order as their personal field of play.

    The vast majority of people, across the UK, never mind Wales, have come to regard these people as worthless scumbags with eyes to the main chance.

    They have concreted themselves into a bunker of legislation that is almost impossible to breach. They make law and regulation that is, in the bulk of the time, not needed, certainly not welcomed and by circuitous methods, made it virtually impossible to gainsay, simply because we have no ready means to address their enactments.

    We have no legitimate means to issue challenge to whatever is put out, where a written constitution could enable the voter to call on his fellow electors to throw down the gauntlet of legislative challenge, what we have is a case of continuous fait accompli, something we cannot overcome, unless by means of rebellious insurgency.

    All of which is complicated and entangled up in false adherence to religio/political shenanigans.

    Yes, we may declare for being against some aspect of legislation, but by the perpetual interference of those who see it potentially crossing their set of credo's and tenets, we are ultimately compelled to tolerate our grievances being put aside, and that applies to sectarian/party politics, as well as sectarian religio/politics.

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  • 109. At 2:35pm on 14 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #108

    They have concreted themselves into a bunker of legislation that is almost impossible to breach. They make law and regulation that is, in the bulk of the time, not needed, certainly not welcomed and by circuitous methods, made it virtually impossible to gainsay, simply because we have no ready means to address their enactments.

    Mapexx its not virtually impossible, in some cases its totally impossible moreover, its real and not imagined!

    It creates a condition known as "Groupthink", Wiki describes it as follows which sums it all up nicely:

    Symptoms of Groupthink

    To make groupthink testable, Irving Janis devised eight symptoms indicative of groupthink (1977).

    Illusions of invulnerability creating excessive optimism and encouraging risk taking.

    Rationalising warnings that might challenge the group's assumptions.
    Unquestioned belief in the morality of the group, causing members to ignore the consequences of their actions.

    Stereotyping those who are opposed to the group as weak, evil, biased, spiteful, disfigured, impotent, or stupid.

    Direct pressure to conform placed on any member who questions the group, couched in terms of "disloyalty".

    Self censorship of ideas that deviate from the apparent group consensus.
    Illusions of unanimity among group members, silence is viewed as agreement.

    Mindguards self-appointed members who shield the group from dissenting information.

    Groupthink, resulting from the symptoms listed above, results in defective decision making. That is, consensus-driven decisions are the result of the following practices of groupthinking:

    Incomplete survey of alternatives.
    Incomplete survey of objectives.
    Failure to examine risks of preferred choice.
    Failure to reevaluate previously rejected alternatives.
    Poor information search.
    Selection bias in collecting information.
    Failure to work out contingency plans.


    Mindguards - Now who or what does that remind you of?

    The good news is that these groups or evil empires usually end up destroying themselves, its just a matter of how much damage they are going to do to us before that happens. In which case God help us because the church is not going too!

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  • 110. At 2:49pm on 14 Jul 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 108, 109 and many others!

    I watched Mississippi Burning the other night - you lot and your rants sound very much like the people there!

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  • 111. At 2:59pm on 14 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #110

    Before you said quote "you lot and your rants sound very much like the people there!"

    You should have read #109

    Stereotyping those who are opposed to the group as weak, evil, biased, spiteful, disfigured, impotent, or stupid.

    Then take a good look at yourself

    I rest my case!

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  • 112. At 3:36pm on 14 Jul 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 111

    In 1950s Mississippi it was 'commies' and other groups that I will not (quite tightly) name on here. With you, it's that part of the Welsh nation that believes it a privilege and a duty to take responsibility for our own affairs (rather than fob us off on London), and now it seems archbishops - or indeed anyone who seems to have any kind of faith. But I suspect any group will do.

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  • 113. At 3:45pm on 14 Jul 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 112....

    How the child mind, in all it's innocence, will insist on taking Mammy wisdom from the knee so literally.

    No wonder theere is a mind set across Wales that can see no danger, whilst the sharks swim about waiting for the unwary.

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  • 114. At 4:04pm on 14 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #112

    Let me spell it out for you.

    You and others like you are the ones that are stereotyping anyone critical of the Welsh Assembly as being

    weak, evil, biased, spiteful, disfigured, impotent, or stupid.

    What the Archbishop adds besides acting as the mindguardian is

    Unquestioned belief in the morality of the group, causing members to ignore the consequences of their actions.

    The result is defective decision making from which we all suffer,

    Therefore do you really expect people to say nothing? make no critisism what so ever? Are you really that insecure vulnerable and fragile?

    You are hiding behind the genuine belief of some in their national identity to hide the political failings of the Assembly, which some genuine people accept is not perfect.

    As far as making moral judgements on others you should be remined that "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"





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  • 115. At 4:04pm on 14 Jul 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 113

    "How the child mind, in all it's (sic) innocence, will insist on taking Mammy wisdom from the knee so literally.

    No wonder theere (sic) is a mind set (sic) across Wales that can see no danger, whilst the sharks swim about waiting for the unwary."

    Am I the only one who needs an explanation?!

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  • 116. At 4:39pm on 14 Jul 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 115...



    Yes, you probably are, just as you are forever the pedant when it comes down to picking up typo's.

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  • 117. At 4:42pm on 14 Jul 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 114

    You seem to be in a rage all of a sudden.

    "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" - you say. There were many such tired cliches in the Mississippi of the 50s as well. Those people also seemed to be in a rage much of the time...

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  • 118. At 5:10pm on 14 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #117

    I seem to have hit a raw nerve with you ranting on about 50s Mississippi and the dreaded commies.

    I fail to see why you are jumping up and down and conducting a MaCarthy type witch hunt on anybody who critises the the Assembly for the mess that it really is.

    In the period to which you refer, it had long been a practice of more religious and conservative politicians to refer to liberal reforms such as child labour laws and womens suffrage as commie plots.

    No doubt anybody wanting more liberal and open government refoms of the Welsh Assembly will be treated the same way!

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  • 119. At 5:32pm on 14 Jul 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 118

    On the contrary, I'm quite calm thank you! Maybe it's the high altitude affecting an East Anglian ...

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  • 120. At 5:50pm on 14 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #119

    Calm Down Dear!

    No need to get racist or abusive.

    I never knew that wanting to abolish that insult to democracy known as English Crown Immunity would raise such wrath from a Welsh Royalist.

    Clearly the Royalist Association of Pembrokeshire, Carmarthenshire and Cardiganshire, is alive and well!

    Perhaps thats why 3,000 Welshmen joined up to fight on the side of an autocratic English King? To keep the little people in their place.

    Nothing to do with altitude, my feet are on the ground its your head thats in the clouds and starved of the oxygen of equality, common sense, and reason.

    I greatly admire Owain Glyndwr for the same reasons I admire Cromwell, it was a time when English and Welsh fought together for a common cause; he must be rolling in his grave.

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  • 121. At 6:09pm on 14 Jul 2009, mapexx wrote:




    Talking about pedantism and typo's, how about that from yourself in message 112

    "....In 1950s Mississippi it was 'commies' and other groups that I will not (quite tightly)(SIC) name on here....."


    Or did you really mean 'tightly?


    I stick with the first assumption. You dropped one, Smartie Pants, so if you don't mind, a bit less of the clever clogs in future.

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  • 122. At 6:40pm on 14 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #121

    mapexx

    He meant "tightly"

    It was a Freudian slip referring to the fit of the cork

    One day it pop....

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  • 123. At 7:53pm on 14 Jul 2009, Fitzmark2 wrote:

    Mapexx #121

    There are quite few posters on this blog who are out of the same nationalist mould as FiDaffdd. They are self appointed arbiters of English usage yet they display in their posts similar grammatical solecisms, typos as the rest of us. Hypocritical is one word to describe them, childish another.

    But I think their adolescent attempts to put someone down or to put them on the back foot based on 'poor' language usage is a sure indication that they are loosing the argument.

    The high tide of nationalism, from what I can gather, in Wales, is on the turn. And hence their pathetic attempts to attack the messenger and not the argument will become more virulent.

    However I'm quite sure you are quite capable of knocking seven bells out of their childish hides.

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  • 124. At 9:26pm on 14 Jul 2009, John Henry wrote:


    FiDafydd you wrote at #110

    Re 108, 109 and many others! ..... I watched Mississippi Burning the other night - you lot and your rants sound very much like the people there!


    Who exactly are you referring to and what aspects of Mississippi Burning do you mean ?


    I don't often ask a question.




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  • 125. At 10:02pm on 14 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #124

    Stoney, Fidafydd is simply stirring it up and them playing the Welsh card to present himself as some kind of victim.

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  • 126. At 10:38pm on 14 Jul 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 124

    The people who had a minority in their midst that they simply didn't like, especially when that minority were asking for equal rights. Their discourse had an obsession with commies, blacks, papists - indeed, anything they perceived as a threat to their preferred anglo-saxon community model.

    On here it's Welsh speakers, nationalists, the Assembly, and more recently, it seems, Christians and archbishops!

    The messages on here today have become increasingly belligerent and intolerant.

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  • 127. At 06:06am on 15 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #126

    I would add the that people who want an end to English Crown Immunity are also a monority and do not want it replaced with Welsh Crown Immunity.

    Unfortunately there are some like you who want to keep for there own ends. Those who want open government and expose the failing of the Assembly are seen as a threat.

    There is a psychological condition whereby people with a chip on their shoulder of being "hard done by" feel they have a God given right to do the same to others.

    You said The messages on here today have become increasingly belligerent and intolerant

    Yes yours!

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  • 128. At 06:12am on 15 Jul 2009, John Henry wrote:


    #126

    I perceive the issue in Wales to be Plaid Cymru, and of course its membership, not the people of the Principality.

    Plaid does have the support of a fifth estate, or possibly fifth column, the support of Tomorrow Wales, this unelected cabal is insidious in its weaving of the separatist agenda.

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  • 129. At 06:59am on 15 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #126

    Here is an extract from the Independent

    English the victims of racism in Wales

    Anti-racism campaigners in Wales have warned of an upsurge in discrimination against an ethnic minority in the Valleys: the English.

    Naz Malik, chairman of the Swansea Bay Racial Equality Council, said English people were making more complaints about discrimination than more usual victims of prejudice such as Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Afro-Caribbeans.

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  • 130. At 07:09am on 15 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #126 Fidafydd

    I watched Mississippi Burning the other night your rants sound very much like the people there

    They were the worse sort of hypocrites as well!

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  • 131. At 10:51am on 15 Jul 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 130

    Neo,

    So you're still in a foul mood then. Feeling rather uncomfortable perhaps - 3 posts before 7.30!!

    Your 129: aren't the Valleys overwhelmingly English speaking communities? So I'm not sure who exactly you're attacking there.

    128: Well if that doesn't describe paranoia, I really don't know what does. I rest my case.

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  • 132. At 5:32pm on 15 Jul 2009, John Henry wrote:


    #131

    Churchill was paranoid to, and was he proven right when Holland was stamped on, May 1940 I believe.

    Plaid, well it wants to float a part of the United Kingdom into a third estate. Balkans springs to mind.


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  • 133. At 5:58pm on 15 Jul 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 132

    Extraordinary!

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  • 134. At 2:30pm on 16 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    #131 FiDafydd

    There is only one fool and its you

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  • 135. At 7:25pm on 16 Jul 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 134

    I don't see where the fool bit came in!

    But I do see that you don't have an answer. Were you deliberately insulting the English speaking people of the Valleys?

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  • 136. At 8:11pm on 16 Jul 2009, Neocromwellian wrote:


    Re 135

    You must stop all this Welsh bashing and insulting their culture and language

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  • 137. At 10:54pm on 16 Jul 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 136

    As you're no longer making sense, I take it you're conceding that you've lost this particular spat. Perhaps now we can return to the original topic,

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