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Sleeping lions and leaders

Betsan Powys | 23:01 UK time, Thursday, 28 May 2009

The culture-vulture returns to the keyboard to find that some of you would prefer to label me a reconstructed-culture-vulture.

Whatever your truth about the Welsh language and culture is - and let the debate continue in your comments - let me tell you that for me, there is nothing bad about watching parents looking on in awe as their children perform to a crowd of well over a thousand in a language Mum and Dad can't speak. They tell me they regard it as something pretty remarkable. There is something unique and, yes, unfathomable about sensing a huge wave of disappointment rippling through a crowd because for the first time in a quarter of a century no young poet has quite managed to hit the judges' collective V-spot (Verse-spot) so that the chair must remain empty.

There is even something good about listening to a gang of boys from Cefneithin belting out their own version of "Wimoweh" in Welsh.

You get the idea. It works for me.

I return to the keyboard to read as well the attack launched in a speech tonight by Conservative Assembly Member Jonathan Morgan on his leader, Nick Bourne. Back in February, the party's former health spokesman lost his frontbench job in a reshuffle that had one obvious aim: securing the leader's position after Jonathan Morgan had been at the forefront of attempts to oust him.

The first line of attack is expenses. The speech refers to the "truly appalling" behaviour of some elected politicians that's made him ashamed of his profession. Whose appalling behaviour? Read this extract and take a guess.

"Politicians who have claimed inappropriately or illegitimately, whether it be phantom mortgages, i-Pods, plasma televisions, trouser-presses or duck islands for their ponds, have proven their judgement has been flawed and they have lost the moral, ethical and political capacity to show leadership."

The clue is in the i-Pod, the point driven home by the trouser-press. He's talking about Nick Bourne whose claim for an i-Pod became shorthand for what was seen in the days before duck islands and eye-watering mortgages as inappropriate claiming by some Assembly members. Ah, those were the days.

Mr Bourne later apologised and donated the equivalent cost of his claim to charity.

But it doesn't end there. If it is simply revenge, Jonathan Morgan has decided to serve it up not just cold but in some depth and detail.

In a speech that focuses on the prospect of deep public expenditure cuts to come thanks to the recession, he goes on to question his leader's strategy over the past few years.

What do you make of this?

"Once again the Conservative Party is going to have to pick up the pieces but we need to focus our minds now about what our priorities will be in the short, medium and long-term and give an honest appraisal to the voters about how we are going to get there.

"We cannot afford to rely on other political factors or other elections; we need to win this case on our own merit. We have been guilty in previous elections of inconsistency; trading short-term opportunism for political gain. We have been guilty of trying to match free or unaffordable policy gimmicks with other parties, like favouring a universal handout to pensioners to assist with Council Tax bills, yet opposing a universal handout to cover prescription charges. We wanted to spend £24m on lighting up every home in Wales but we are against providing breakfasts for every school child in Wales.

"We have also been guilty of not standing up for what we really believe in because we were more afraid of voter hostility. Wales cannot afford this lack of vision.

"We need to start making our case now to prove to the people of Wales that we have a coherent long-term vision and the metal to deliver it. I am confident that the people of Wales would welcome a bold approach but one that is clear and consistent on the spending of public money.

"It's going to take strong and skilful leadership to make that case and it's going to take political will and courage to initiate the vital change that is needed in order to make a real political breakthrough."

Nick Bourne has already reconstructed his cabinet. What does he do now? Dismiss the speech Cardiff North Conservatives heard tonight as sour grapes? Or accept that there is a debate happening amongst Welsh Conservatives, one that goes way beyond music players and lightbulbs, one that can see huge political changes in the near future and one that wants to sort out some basic answers long before the General Election poses the big question.

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  • 1. At 07:28am on 29 May 2009, penddu wrote:

    The Conservatives in Wales have managed a recovery from their 1997 lows by distancing themselves from their London masters, and creating a stronger Welsh identity - mostly due to Nick Bourne. But he is clearly now damaged goods and needs to be replaced as Welsh leader.

    But if they are to continue their recovery in Wales then they need to maintain a strong Welsh identity, and Jonathan Morgan seems to fit the bill.

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  • 2. At 08:33am on 29 May 2009, Lyn David Thomas wrote:

    I would agree. Since the departure of Rod Richards Bourne has dragged the Conservative Party into the Welsh mainstream. However, like the Labour Party, it is divided. Its MPs want to retain power at Westminster, and for the most part, its AMs want it to be transferred to Cardiff. Its membership contains a substantial minority (as seen here) who want abolition of the Assembly and return to direct rule via the Secretaries of State. Its a difficult circle to square. I agree Bourne is probably fatally damaged now, but don't see any change before the next Welsh Election.

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  • 3. At 09:24am on 29 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    Betsan....

    The part paragraph below, from your headliner confirms one thing in my mind, that the job of a politician is NOT to provide free this, that, or the other, to the 'universe', but to manage over an economy that provides fiscal probity when using the tax take from those able to pay, and to ensure that, in a targeted way, it is paid out to meet the needs of those really in need.





    ".....unaffordable policy gimmicks with other parties, like favouring a universal handout to pensioners to assist with Council Tax bills, yet opposing a universal handout to cover prescription charges. We wanted to spend £24m on lighting up every home in Wales but we are against providing breakfasts for every school child in Wales......"


    To use legislation that is, at least, marginally provided, at worst, more than is legitimately tolerated, to go for gimmicky provision, should be banned along with dodgy claims for items such as iPods and others of a debatable nature.


    I cannot but return to my favourite sport, decrying the totally unnecessary menage in the Bay of Of Pigs.

    We taxpayers have enough of a burden to contend with, in what has happened in Westminster, without having to bear the further costs involved in a local Assembly, be they 'legitimate' costs, which are far too high anyway, or perceived 'illicit' ones, centred on iPods and second homes etc.


    As for a 'power struggle' between one Tory member and another, why should I have to consume such with my muesli.

    It is irrelevant to me if they do swords at dawn in a misty delf, or pistols at ten paces. Probably better for all if they did either, at least one would disappear from the scene..

    The outcome will be the same either way. Another leadership of a party that is where it is for self seeking reasons, and to hell with those who are paying for their presence in the Senedd.

    For me, it's a case of clear out that nest of poisonous vipers, and parasitical cuckoo's in the nest of my homeland, not have to tolerate the outcome into perpetuity.

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  • 4. At 09:31am on 29 May 2009, penddu wrote:

    I agree - lets cut costs - the cost of one MP is around FOUR times the cost of one AM, so we can pay for the cost of our 60 AMS by culling 15 MPs.

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  • 5. At 09:41am on 29 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 4....


    Why stop at 15 MP's, to fund 60 AM's, far cheaper for the taxpayers to cull 60 AM's.

    Cut Westminster to 300 MP's, if that even, and cancel the Bay of Pigs in total. Then we would be some £1 billion better off.

    Half the MP's, zero AM's.

    Suits me down to the ground.

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  • 6. At 10:29am on 29 May 2009, John Henry wrote:


    There is no free anything, unfortunately this concept is alien to most politicians and followers, with their hands in my wallet they promise the earth to the gullible.

    But there is a glimmer of hope, the Conservatives have recognised the unsustainable nature of 1000 politicians in the United Kingdom picking mine and your pockets, Westminster + NI + Edinburgh + Cardiff, and there are the staff and ..... the list goes on.

    The Conservatives and other mainstream parties also recognise publicly the value and strength of the Union.


    Sidestep to the Bay of Plenty .....

    Parochial Plaid AM Ieuan Wyn Jones is winging today in the Western Mail, he wants more, yet this man and chums have failed to demonstrate anything other than the most basic abilities in government ..... they have a problem at Cardiff Bay, no vision worth the paper it might be written on.


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  • 7. At 10:30am on 29 May 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 3

    mapexx

    "homeland"??!!

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  • 8. At 10:45am on 29 May 2009, lordBeddGelert wrote:

    He had better hope that he is 'whiter-than-white' before going off like a loose cannon.

    Or let us hope that he is without sin before casting the first stone from his glass house..

    I'm sure you can come up with some even better mixed metaphors...

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  • 9. At 10:50am on 29 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 7...



    Yes, where I live, but you don't.

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  • 10. At 10:51am on 29 May 2009, penddu wrote:

    5 - You know that we will not agree in principle of cutting out the Senedd - and the public opinion as expressed in every recent opinion poll is that the Seendd is here to stay. This was even before the MPs expenses scandal, so opinion is now likely to be musch more in favour of Cardiff Bay than the Wasteminster cesspit.

    We should halve the number of Welsh MPs, which would not only pay for our AMs, but leave us with some change!!

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  • 11. At 10:51am on 29 May 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 6

    Forgive me, Stonemason, it took me a while to read your message, dazzled as I was by the vision emanating from Westminster.

    Sometimes, you have to, just have to laugh.

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  • 12. At 11:15am on 29 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 10....

    I stand by #5

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  • 13. At 11:19am on 29 May 2009, Griffaa wrote:

    "Why stop at 15 MP's, to fund 60 AM's, far cheaper for the taxpayers to cull 60 AM's."

    Maybe because the people voted for it, and that there is no indication at all that people are now regretting it (in fact all indications and polls suggest the complete opposite). But hey, sod democracy right?

    As for your comments on the Eisteddfod Betsan, not only is it wonderful for the parents, it's also for the kids. I work in a Primary school and for the past month the upcoming trip to Cardiff to compete has been the only thing the kids want to talk about. Unfortunately they did not reach the stage eventually but I know that when we go back on Monday I will have a whole classroom falling over each other to tell me about their adventures down at the Eisteddfod. It's just unfortunate that some people can't see past that chip on their shoulder and see the sheer delight that the Eisteddfod and the Urdd give to 50,000 Welsh children (and their families) each year.

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  • 14. At 11:40am on 29 May 2009, John Henry wrote:

    Laughing FiDafydd, at

    There is no free anything

    or was it .....

    Cardiff Bay, no vision worth the paper it might be written on.


    ... either way, Cardiff bay has had its day, it has been found out.


    Public opinion is in favour of much less government.


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  • 15. At 12:15pm on 29 May 2009, John Henry wrote:


    I am not a fan of Peter Black, but today in his blog he wrote about Ieuan Wyn Jones writing in today's Western Mail.....

    He said that in the newspaper Jones tried to turn a "national crisis" into "a narrow self-serving opportunity", which does in fact misses the point.

    He continued It is not just Westminster that has lost all 'moral authority' as a result of this crisis but all politicians, whether they be AMs, MSPs, MPs, MEPs or MLAs. The public are angry with us as a political class and quite rightly so.


    Well Peter Black, you've got my vote on this one.


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  • 16. At 12:26pm on 29 May 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 14

    Stonemason,

    The sun is out, and I'm feeling just fine today. And now I have even more reason to laugh!

    "... either way, Cardiff bay has had its day, it has been found out."

    Well said Griffaa, by the way.

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  • 17. At 12:49pm on 29 May 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 15

    I agree with you Stonemason, I'm not a fan of Peter Black either - or his ties!

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  • 18. At 1:17pm on 29 May 2009, golewboi wrote:

    This is the first sign that the Tories now expect to have a disapointing European election result in Wales.
    A poorer than expected showing at the polls on Thursday would be another blow to Nick Bourne and give Jonathan Morgan the opportunity he's been waiting for.
    Some may question the timing of such an attack seven days before an election, but his speech is clearly an effort to set the stage for a full-on leadership challenge next week.

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  • 19. At 1:19pm on 29 May 2009, John Henry wrote:


    FiDafydd, #17

    I have not noticed his ties, I shall pay particular attention in the future.

    I shall now retire to the garden, a tall drink and large awning.

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  • 20. At 1:46pm on 29 May 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    Thank you Betsan for sharing with us your sense of pride and obvious love for Welsh culture and being a part of all it entailes.
    Especialy being a a part of the phenominum that is the Eisteddfod with our children and their eagerness in wanting to perform whether they win or lose. they gain so much in self worth and discipline. Where else is there anything that can be compared with it. I am afraid it is only through envy at the end of the day, why so many people are against it.
    That is the reason so many cultures throughout the world have been destroyed over the years.

    I have noticed one thing that blatently stands out you haven't received the same bilious attacks from these small and narrow minded anti anything Welsh people the rest of us have had to put up with, for saying more or less the same things.

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  • 21. At 1:47pm on 29 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 13....


    The 'people' did NOT vote for it.

    A low turn out gave approximately 25% of the 'people' the opportunity, undemocratically, by all internationally accepted meanings of the word, the chance to take Wales into their unworthy hands.

    The people were NOT told how far down the route to independence, the devolved Assembly would be attempting to take us.

    They were NOT told that within a few short years, what was perceived as a sort of local supra-council, would be seeking powers that would effectively replace the state of Gt Britain, with the state of Wales.

    They were NOT told that all educational establishments would be forced to include Cymraeg on their curricula.Nor that within a few years more all business would be compelled to issue dual language documentation in order to operate here in Wales. A farcical potential scenario of almost Goon proportions.

    They were NOT told many things, that have subsequently come, via the Assembly, and which have cost the taxpayer very dear. and which will cost even more in days to come, if this farce carries on much longer..

    Had we been told this was the plan, and the strategy was to first of all sneak in under the umbrella of what was basically a replacement for the Welsh Office, I doubt very much that the present nonsense would even be
    under debate.

    The devolutionists sought a mandate in 1979, and lost the referendum.

    That should have been the end of it, but they carried on weeping and wailing, whinging and creating, until the central government gave them seconds, ( no doubt just to shut them up) which under any sort of democracy they would not have won the day, instead of which by failing to set a minimum margin for 'winning' the government allowed this region to be effectively handed to the nationalists on a plate.

    Now they crow and trumpet, having got the mandate they could not get before, at the first attempt, and yet refuse to accept that we want another stab at it, and deny us that right.

    They demanded and got, we want the same.

    And we do not want to wait until 2019 for the chance.

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  • 22. At 1:57pm on 29 May 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 23. At 2:50pm on 29 May 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    My comment refered to the moderators I have placed on here before on a previous entry and it was accepted. I will try again.

    Response to

    5. mapexx

    14. TheStonemason

    http://cambriapolitico.com/2009/05/waless-westminster-freeloaders/

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  • 24. At 2:53pm on 29 May 2009, penddu wrote:

    21 Oh give up - the Majority DID vote for it. All opinion polls since have given it stronger and stronger backing. There is only a small and dwindling minority who want to see it abolished and you are clearly in this group.

    I remind you of the latest opinion polls 20% want to abolish the Assembly - 20% want it to remain as-is - 60% want increased powers.

    The rest of your ramblings are just irrelevant

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  • 25. At 3:26pm on 29 May 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 21

    I'm in a very good mood today, and not even m ap exx is going to change that. Not even close!

    Could he perhaps tell us who was barred from voting in the Referendum? Could he perhaps tell us which electoral law was broken at the time of the Referendum - note my capital 'R'!

    The rest of course is the usual regurgitated nonsense that he repeats ad nauseam in every thing he writes: language...blah...independence...blah...Cymraeg...blah...blah...blah

    Emotional sour grapes.

    I take it that you can't spell 'bureaucrat'(no.80 Follow Your Leader) because it's a French word ...

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  • 26. At 3:48pm on 29 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 24...


    Not in this area they didn't. Nor would do so when a referendum is repeated.

    Which will have to come. Sooner or later. Either before, or after, both local and general elections.


    Message 25....


    Is that the best you can do? Hardly likely to raise sound points.. as usual.

    Sour grapes, of course it is, we in Gwent were shafted by the false political imbalance created deliberately to gain the 'yes' vote.

    Why, please tell me, did you lot carry on demanding what you had already been refused in 1979?

    Now the shoe is on the other foot, we are to be denied, are we?

    To return to Alf, I am not alone in believing the polls are slanted, and the applied questions biased.

    The tide WILL turn, you can brag and crow all you like, but there are many who are determined to get shot of that menage down in the Bay of Pigs; just be patient, as we are, good things come to he who waits, and the goody we wait for will be evident the next time we get the chance to take you lot, and your nonsense, to the cleaners.

    But the next time, we will make damned sure you don't get another bite at the cherry of devolution.

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  • 27. At 4:05pm on 29 May 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 26

    No answers, of course. I didn't expect any. You haven't got a leg to stand on.

    You're perfectly entitled to campaign for whatever you want. Your problem is that no major party in Wales now supports your view, and only a tiny minority of the Welsh nation.

    Our problem is that you're going to bore us silly doing it ...

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  • 28. At 4:22pm on 29 May 2009, nomorepowers wrote:


    Penddu. Without getting personal and nasty please tell us why the figure of 60% for further powers should be relied upon. Surely if the yes campaign are that convinced of their integrity a referendum would have been called by now or at least guaranteed before the next general election. I took part in a survey last year commissioned by the Assembly, it asked do you think the assembly is good for Wales - Should the Assembly have the same powers as Scotland blah blah blah.

    So far so good until I tell you where and when the survey took place.

    Cardiff during the Urdd Eisteddfod......

    One can only assume from the above the puppet masters from the Bay of Plenty would not dare call a referendum on such questionable and orchestrated information and propaganda.

    Don't be surprised if we see another survey come out within the next couple of weeks supporting the nationalist's agenda.

    Remember a majority of one will secure further powers. Bring on the referendum now. I think not do you.

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  • 29. At 4:23pm on 29 May 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    26 mapexx

    Sorry I was 20,23, you can answer those if you want. or it seems like you don't want.

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  • 30. At 4:32pm on 29 May 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 28

    nomorepowers,

    The Urdd Eisteddfod wasn't in Cardiff last year, but the National Eisteddfod visited the capital city in August.

    Are you saying that you were actually visiting the Eisteddfod when your views were sought?!

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  • 31. At 4:37pm on 29 May 2009, nomorepowers wrote:

    I forgot to mention, the Urdd Eisteddfod is a great festival for children, young people and their families and so is the National Eisteddfod and International Eisteddfod all supported by the tax payers of the United Kingdom. Now without sounding Anti Welsh could we not have a fabulous fortnight encompassing all three and perhaps we could save the RAC Rally which sells Wales to the world.

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  • 32. At 5:52pm on 29 May 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    31, nomorepowers

    I think the RAC Rally could be on it's last legs any way.
    Every where it goes in Wales seems to have be taken or being taken over by Wind Farms or is intended for new ones.
    Apparently the whole of the mountains both sides of the Neath and Dulais valleys will be covered by them and earmarked for extending Opencast sites.
    In Mid Wales on the Cambrian Mountains the whole area is earmarked for them besides the ones already there.
    An excelent DVD 'Secret Wales' by the Cambrian Mountains Society shows what it is already like.
    www.cambrian-mountains.co.uk

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  • 33. At 6:04pm on 29 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 27
    ...


    As far as I am concerned, the bulk of Cymraeg speaking Wales can go to hell on a handcart, my interest lies in what is to happen here in the east of Wales, particularly the south east.

    If the rest of Wales is stupid enough to repeat the referendum result of 1997, so be it, but I, and my fellow antipathetic to "more powers to the Assembly" south east dwellers seemingly are not so stupid.

    Is it any wonder a great number who come onto this and other blogs, whose location is this area, decry the fact that Monmouthshire/Gwent was sent into Wales without reference to us.

    The more likely it is that a new referendum will confirm that 1997 result, the more vociferous will those in this area become.

    The nett result, if that be the outcome, the more we will demand to be returned to our previous ambiguous status, neither Wales, or England. But English within the boundary of Wales, where we will be able to utilise our disregarded, but very ancient customs, habits,and practices, which of course include the daily use of ENGLISH, without it being contaminated by a language, which is effectively alien here in this area, as far as the overwhelming majority of Gwent people are concerned.

    Those who do not wish to follow that, can disappear up into the other regions, where they will no doubt be made welcome, in their language of choice.

    I am quite happy to be part of Gwent, especially considering the name is not Cymraeg, but based on the Roman Latin name for the area.
    Caerwent,...as I believe to 'Windy Castle',= Ventrum Castellum.


    Which sounds just fine to me.

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  • 34. At 6:51pm on 29 May 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    33 mapex
    As far as I am concerned, the bulk of Cymraeg speaking Wales can go to hell on a handcart, my interest lies in what is to happen here in the east of Wales, particularly the south east.

    Fancy telling the host of this blog she can go to hell,tut tut.

    Please tell me if I am wrong though I am sure you will
    that the greatest concentration of welsh learners is in the south east of wales

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  • 35. At 6:51pm on 29 May 2009, Dan Dy Din wrote:

    Ho ho! Mapexx at post number 33:

    Please check your facts about name derivation and meaning before you post all clever like!

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  • 36. At 6:55pm on 29 May 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    Forgive me for not putting a capital letter for Wales my catteracts again.
    At least I havent got a blinkered and narrow view on life.

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  • 37. At 7:30pm on 29 May 2009, nomorepowers wrote:

    Sir Emyr visited Caerphilly Council Chambers Yesterday to speak to the 72 elected members. Less than a third bothered to turn up. Even Ron Plaid Cymru Davies Mr Assembly himself was absent Sir Emyr and his fellow nationalist yes campaigners took a hammering. I'll try and reflect some of the questions he failed abysmally to answer.

    In 1997 children in Wales were 0.1% below English children for attainment in GCSEs. In 2009 our children are now 10 % below the children in England despite being given the same funding per head to WAG. Do you think the Assembly deserve more powers when the WAG are clearly failing our children.

    We have free prescriptions but have to wait at least 4 hours in A & E units to be seen. Also we can expect a 4 hour wait for an ambulance to turn up. Why should we reward failure with more powers. Sir Emyr tried his best to fool the members by arguing WAG didn't have any influence over the terms and conditions of our Ambulance staff. We were informed unfortunately, ambulance staff's terms are the same in England and Wales. Sir Emyr was quickly asked what difference did the terms of ref have when England were significantly out performing our Welsh ambulance staff with the same terms and conditions. Sir Emyr got extremely embarrassed and asked for the next question.

    The clear message from the event was WAG need to stop taking local powers away and should concentrate on making sure more quality AMs are found before people could even contemplate more powers. For the small number of nationalists who attended, their message to Sir Emyr was we want independence now.

    Hope this has helped.

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  • 38. At 7:40pm on 29 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 35....

    Before I actually post the REAL meaning of the name, let's see if you can do it first.


    I am all for a challenge, but when you challenge, make sure I am aware of what you think is the correct meaning.

    I have given my version, so, let's be having yours.



    Message 34,....

    I included no specific person in my comment. I did say the 'bulk of Cymraeg speakers.'

    It is up to the individual amongst those to decide for themselves, including 'the host of this blog' if they consider themselves to be in that 'bulk' or not.

    I do wish you would refrain from making remarks as though you are Betsan's daddy or uncle. What's your real name? Svengali?

    I told you elsewhere, she is bright enough to speak for herself,should she wish to, and does not need your input on her behalf.

    Then on to your last one, about 'blinkered and narrow view of life'...surely you are joking, the most narrow and blinkered views arriving on this blog come from the parochial nationalist element.

    Those that want to take Wales back into the dark ages.

    Others who follow my line, have a whole world view, we embrace the global scene, have spent time travelling across much of that globe, and are uncluttered by a localised language, and an agenda to take Wales down the path to a destructive political cul de sac.

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  • 39. At 7:52pm on 29 May 2009, John Henry wrote:

    It might be your bedtime DanDydin, alf could benefit from an early night, he's getting tetchy .....

    Gwent is derived from the Latin "Venta", Roman origin.

    After the Romans, the name "Caerwent" as a place name could have been the focal point of the Kingdom of Gwent, the only certainty is "went" was mapped from Venta, the mapping would have been necessary because the Welsh alphabet has no "V", it has been proven that the origins of the place would be the Roman "Venta Silurum", what little of the Roman town that remains, are located in the modern village of Caerwent.





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  • 40. At 7:53pm on 29 May 2009, Snoutsintrough wrote:

    I humbly think the Conservative party is getting into all sorts of contradictory positions with regard to the reduction of political interference in our lives (seemingly for England),whilst according to William Hague they are more receptive to additional powers to Cardiff,which in Wales will mean greater and not lesser powers for the third rate politicians we have currently elected.Even King Rhodri 11 has acknowledged that the last 15 years,under both conservative and new labour governments will be looked back on as the "feast" years and coming 10 years under any government is going to be "famine" and this is going to cause great problems for Cardiff Bay politicians as they cannot be seen to be cutting budgets,no matter what the economic reality. As Irwin Seltzer put it "If the incoming Conservative government doesnt cut public expenditure then the IMF will",otherwise the budgetary shortfalls will not be covered and hence downgrading of UK status. The danger from my point of view is that Plaid/Left wing labour with their allies in media will ferment the "independance" issue and even greater divisions will appear in welsh society. I agree with some of the comments about huge differences of opinion in wales when you look at the eastern/western extremities as shown in the only actual referendum held in 1997. On a pedantic level if you look at the actual result only 50.1 voted and supporters were 50.3 and against 49.7. If you extrapolate the result on LA basis using actual results on the total electorate the result turns out 48.81 for and 51.19 against. Looking at Easternfigures there was very substantial vote against in actuality and if everybody had voted there would have been resounding NO. They key issue for no more powers is to galvanize the very sceptical majority in East Wales to vote in any future referendum.

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  • 41. At 8:04pm on 29 May 2009, Griffaa wrote:

    NOMOREPOWERS said at 37:
    In 1997 children in Wales were 0.1% below English children for attainment in GCSEs. In 2009 our children are now 10 % below the children in England despite being given the same funding per head to WAG. Do you think the Assembly deserve more powers when the WAG are clearly failing our children.


    Um...are you just making facts up now? In 2008 (results for 2009 are not out yet since the Children haven't sat them yet!):

    - 65.5% of English children got A*-C in their GCSE, 65% of Welsh kids did, that's a difference of 0.5% not 10%!
    - 20.6% of English kids gotr A*/A, 18.9% of Welsh kids did, a difference of 1.7% not 10%
    - Overall pass rates were identical
    - The increase from 2007 were identical in England and Wales

    And before you say "ah but 1.7% is more than the 0.5% it was in 1997" it wasn't 0.5% in 1997, it was 2%.

    Aren't facts wonderful!

    Oh and Mapexx at 33 - Caerwent means Windy Castle in only one language, and I can assure you it's not Latin.

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  • 42. At 8:12pm on 29 May 2009, John Henry wrote:


    Aled Edwards, the "All Wales Convention" wrote Cultures that crave the safe certainties of isolation eventually stagnate and die.

    So I asked myself does the Union represent isolation in any way?

    I'm still thinking .....

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  • 43. At 8:21pm on 29 May 2009, brynt41 wrote:

    #28 nomorepowers wrote:

    "Remember a majority of one will secure further powers"

    Tony Blair got a majority of 67 in 2005 with 35% of the popular vote. How's that for democracy?

    Gordon Brown hasn't got ANY majority! He chickened out of any election.

    The Westminster model is broken, its corrupt, dishonest and self-serving. Wales deserves better. It needs its own parliament, elected by the people of Wales, and accountable to them. Only then will we have the possibility of good government.

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  • 44. At 8:25pm on 29 May 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    message 38 mapexx

    Oh wow, what a nasty malicious piece of work you are.
    You still haven't answered my other comments, right was I.
    I realy think the best thing to do with you and the most efective, would be to completely ignore you, because you are such a pratt who is totaly up himself.

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  • 45. At 8:31pm on 29 May 2009, FiDafydd wrote:


    m ap exx

    You're in a foul mood, no wonder you're waving the white flag. And yet again you show your true colours towards the Welsh language and Welsh speakers. My good mood is getting better and better by the minute!!

    Stonemsaon,

    Are you really, really sure that the letter 'v' has never been a part of written Welsh? I mean really, really sure?

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  • 46. At 8:39pm on 29 May 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    Our brave Llafur-devolutionist-compulsory-Welsh-lessons-party, will play the cowardly actions of the school bully. They will only hold a referendum for more powers if they're sure they're going to win. But after several catastrophic election results their instincts for survival will kick in, they dare not have that referendum.
    Mentioning Monmouthshire, the Conservatives in that once easy going English county, have been solidly against........Devolution, creeping bilingualism, and the Llafur/Labour dictate of COMPULSORY WELSH LANGUAGE lessons..
    The future for English speaking Welsh Brits is blue, Conservatives and Union Party, blue.

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  • 47. At 9:40pm on 29 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 44...

    You wish to engage with me, but get all uptight when I knock your stupid commentary sideways.

    I suggest you read message 38 again, slowly, and try to ignore your excuse of cataracts causing you problems, you seem to manage to read nastiness where there was none, despite them.
    Just like Fifi does when going on about my references to Wales, the Welsh, and the language.

    I rebuked you for attempting to inveigle Betsan in your messages, as stated she is big and old enough to take care of herself, and has no need for your remarks about her capabilities.

    Apart from initially addressing her at the opening of a message, she should be left strictly out of your messages.

    It is so easy to discern your tactics.

    But if you wish to ignore me, by all means be my guest. You have little of worth to contribute anyway.

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  • 48. At 9:44pm on 29 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    Message 45...


    What on earth are you on, never mind on about.

    I have told you before about your lies. That 'white flag' you seem to see is my offered handkerchief to you, as your nose has grown so long you cannot wipe your snout by yourself any more.

    Must be a bugga reaching for the handle of the door, when your nose hits the door a yard in front of your outstretched hand

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  • 49. At 9:47pm on 29 May 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "Gwent is derived from the Latin "Venta", Roman origin."


    Wrong way round Stony = Venta is derived from Gwent.

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  • 50. At 9:50pm on 29 May 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    47 mapexx
    being rebuked by you is like being savaged by a dead sheep in those most famous words.
    Oh how I wish I could but I don't want to be your guest, please will you answer my other comments or can't you because you know I am right.

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  • 51. At 9:55pm on 29 May 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    Anyway, it's all so simple, if you've got an English kinda name, and your first language is English, you'd have to be nuts to vote for....Explicitly Welsh Patriotic Party!!......Wouldn't you?

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  • 52. At 9:56pm on 29 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 41....


    Concise Oxford Dictionary on Huistorical Principles:


    1; Wind: *went, fr. the Latin ventus=wind.

    2: Caer; fr. the Latin: castra, a camp, later modified, L. castellum, Diminutive into castrum, a fortified place.

    1+2 = 'windy castle' in modern English.

    Care to add more? Or better still show me where the Concise Oxford Dictionary is wrong.

    I think I prefer that good lexicon, to your doubtful sources..

    Wiki was it?

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  • 53. At 10:01pm on 29 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 45





    ...."Are you really, really sure that the letter 'v' has never been a part of written Welsh? I mean really, really sure?...."


    a
    short: "a" as in "ham", e.g., "mam"
    long: "a" as in "hard", e.g., "tad"
    b
    as in "boy", e.g., "bara"
    c
    as in "cat" (never the "s" sound as in "cent"), e.g., "cant"
    ch
    a non-English sound as in Scottish "ch" in "loch", e.g., "bach"
    d
    as in "dog", e.g., "dros"
    dd
    "th" (voiced) as in "the" (never the voiceless "th" sound as in "thin, e.g., "bedd"
    e
    short: "e" as in "then", e.g., "pen"
    long: similar to "e" in "then spoken in a southern drawl, e.g., "hen"
    f
    as in "of", e.g., "afal"
    ff
    as in "off", e.g., "ffÙl"
    g
    as in "god", e.g., "glan"
    ng
    as in "long", e.g., "ing"
    h
    as in "hat", e.g., "hen"
    i
    short: "i" as in "sit", e.g., "inc"
    long: "ee" as in "seen", e.g., "hir"
    j
    as in "jam", e.g., "jar"
    l
    as in "lamp", e.g., "lol"
    ll
    an aspirated 'l' which does not occur in English, sounded by placing the tongue so as to say 'l' and hissing out of one side of the mouth, e.g., "llan"
    m
    as in "man", e.g., "mab"
    n
    as in "name", e.g., "nos"
    o
    short: "o" as in "gone", e.g., "llon"
    long: as in "more", e.g., "to"
    p
    as in "pet", e.g., "pen"
    ph
    an aspirated 'p' occurring only as a mutated form, sounded as in "graph", e.g., "tri phen"
    r
    as in "rat", e.g., "caru"
    rh
    an aspirated 'r' which does not occur in English; the difference between 'rh' and 'r' is similar to that betwen 'wh' and 'w' in "when" and "went", e.g., "rhan"
    s
    as in "sit", e.g., "sant"
    t
    as in "top", e.g., "tan"
    th
    as in "thin", e.g., "cath"
    u
    short: as in "sit", e.g., "sut"
    long: as in "seen", e.g., "un"
    w
    as in "wind", e.g., "wedi"
    short: as in "look", e.g., "cwm"
    long: as in "fool", e.g., "mwg"
    y



    I don't see any 'V' in that Cymraeg alphabet. Do you?

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  • 54. At 10:02pm on 29 May 2009, nomorepowers wrote:

    Brynt41 you have missed the point again.

    My point was if your figures of 60%, in favour of more powers is to be believed then why have you not called a referendum when a majority of one is needed. Its obvious if those figures are true and reflect the views of the people of Wales there would have been a referendum yesterday.

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  • 55. At 10:07pm on 29 May 2009, John Henry wrote:

    FiDafydd,

    What do you think, I'm still thinking .....

    Dewi_H

    logic of the intellectually challenged .....

    I think Aled Edwards might be predicting your future isolation and eventual stagnation.

    FiDafydd,

    I found today very mellow ..... the beginning of summer.

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  • 56. At 10:11pm on 29 May 2009, John Henry wrote:


    Thanks for the linguistic suport mapexx, I began to doubt myself but then the logic kicked in, it is a rare occurence to drop a letter from an alphabet.



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  • 57. At 10:12pm on 29 May 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 53

    m ap exx,

    Another one showing off the art of 'cut and paste'. Well done!

    Now, I'll ask you the same question shall I? Are you really, really sure that the letter 'v' has never been a part of written Welsh? I mean really, really sure?

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  • 58. At 10:22pm on 29 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 50...

    The only thing I seem to see you asked, is for confirmation that the 'greatest concentration of Cymraeg learners is in the south east'


    Cannot do so. Certainly to my knowledge that is not the case.

    I suggest you stop listening to propaganda, and concentrate on facts.

    According to certain web sites, the take up around here is between 11 and 15%.


    The facts differ by some 12%. The local Authority tell me it is about 3%.

    There is a new Ysgol just opened in Newport, or is about to, which will take, or has taken about 50% of those currently in Torfaen secondary units. Those pupils were from various areas surrounding Torfaen, Caerleon, Bettws, and other suburbs of Newport.

    This departure from Torfaen secondary Ysgol will leave a gaping hole in placements.

    There are three junior units in Torfaen, none of which are oversubscribed, and as many of the younger ones move up into secondary, still not enough to fill it however, the waiting lists are at almost zero as of a couple of weeks ago.

    Where you get your figures from I have no idea, but this claim you make has been tested a few times over the last year, by people such as myself, and they are found wanting in veracity.

    Quite a few people I have recently spoken to now regret putting their kids into Ysgol, as it causes problems in the home. Plus of course these parents are beginning to realise the educational standards are lower than the peer groups in state schools, plus again, they realise their kids revert to English as soon as they hit the streets.

    But their worst fears are for the future their kids will miss out on, when they come to look for work. By the time most in Ysgol today leave to seek work, there will be no jobs, not even in the Assembly, as all jobs will have been snapped up by those leaving today.

    You cannot pull jobs out of the hat like the magicians rabbit, and that is what is so damned cruel about this nonsense.

    Many will see any future in the use of Cymraeg snatched from them, before they even get to look for work.


    No pal, your attempt has been tried before, but has fallen on the rocks.

    Personally I prefer my 'rocks' with brandy over them.

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  • 59. At 10:23pm on 29 May 2009, John Henry wrote:

    FiDafydd

    My 56, to drop a letter from an alphabet would be chaotic, if a letter became redundant for modern usage, any letter, the process would be to not use it in future new words, but retain it for those words that would become redundant but still required historically.

    But you know this. It begs the question "why ask?"

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  • 60. At 10:36pm on 29 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 57...

    Last one tonight, as I am off to bed.


    Why do you wish to make a point of asking this?

    Have you some sly little secret we should all be aware of, tucked up your sleeve?


    As far as I am aware, the 'V' has never been a part of Cymraeg, at least not in modern times, but was often used by English census takers and non Cymraeg speaking clergy, and teachers, instead of the hard 'F', which obviously they could not differentiate from the English 'V'


    But, be a goody little clever clogs and bring out your little snack from your satchel, I am sure we would all like a bite of it.

    But I will have to wait until later on tomorrow, as I will be out and about all day.

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  • 61. At 10:50pm on 29 May 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 62. At 11:47pm on 29 May 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 61

    If I may just explain to the moderators - this poem is from the 6th century, so there are no copyright issues! And it's only a tiny little piece!! I know that it is in Welsh, but that's the point of what's being discussed.

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  • 63. At 00:09am on 30 May 2009, wonderParksy wrote:

    Re Message 58

    You are mistaken if you think that the new Welsh medium school in Newport is a secondary school. It is a primary school catering for children aged between 3 and 11. Its opening will have no immediate effect on the Welsh medium secondary school serving the Gwent area (Ysgol Gyfun Gwynllyw in Torfaen) although in the longer term it is likely to lead to increasing pressure on the existing accommodation at secondary level - Torfaen LEA is currently seeking to increase the capacity of Gwynllyw to accommodate the existing high demand for Welsh medium secondary education in the Gwent area. The new primary school in Newport has been opened by the local authority to cope with the rising demand for Welsh medium education in the city itself. It is unlikely to attract many pupils from outside the Newport area. With regard to number of Welsh medium primary schools in Torfaen (which you incorrectly refer to as 'junior units', )I believe that there are currently only two, not three as stated. However, there are also two Welsh medium primaries in Monmouthshire and another in Blaenau Gwent all of which currently feed into Ysgol Gyfun Gwynllyw. Finally, you should be aware that all the schools mentioned above are state schools (technicaly they are maintained community schools) and their levels of pupil attainment are at least as good as comparable schools in the English medium sector.

    I have never commented on this website before and will probably never do so again, but on this one occasion I could not allow this total distortion of the facts to go unchallenged.

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  • 64. At 07:50am on 30 May 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "Plus of course these parents are beginning to realise the educational standards are lower than the peer groups in state schools"
    tua
    Mapexx - might want to substantiate that "fact"......because I think it's bull.

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  • 65. At 08:56am on 30 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 68.


    Don't challenge me pal, try it on Torfaen County Borough Council Education department.

    All I have placed in my previous message is no 'distortion' just what they have told me upon my request for information on the current status of Education in respect of Ysgol in this area.

    As far as I am aware there are three junior units and one secondary. One of the junior ones is at the bottom of my road in Varteg, another, the Three Bears in Cwmbran, and the third I will check on, the secondary unit is in Trevethin.

    AS stated I was informed only a few weeks ago that when the secondary Ysgol open s in Newport, all those currently being bussed into Torfaen from what is effectively Newport suburbs, Caerleon etc.,will depart to that new unit.

    So if you can be patient enough to wait until Monday evening, and then come back on here to read my further report you my, or indeed, I may, find a somewhat different set of circumstances hold out in this matter.

    Come Monday I will go to the council offices and get a verbatim report to confirm what I have been informed.

    If this confirms my previous message, then I expect a response from you explaining why you found it necessary to attempt to counter what I gave in good faith.

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  • 66. At 09:02am on 30 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 65...


    I recommend you read recent reports on the variance between Cymraeg educational standards, and those across the bridges, despite greater funding per pupil..

    Others have posted details, and statistics, that I have used to make my case, where therefore is YOUR 'facts' to counter it?

    Just simply standing there and saying it's 'bull' is not very erudite or enlightening, except to show what a nasty mind you have, whenever you disagree with anyone who you feel slights your comfort zone.

    Like I said before, you make a good case for being a thwarted referee, screaming from the touchlines, but without any idea of the rules of the game.

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  • 67. At 09:52am on 30 May 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Let me try it like this then!

    Stonemason and m ap exx, this is for your benefit mainly, because you Stoney, said that the letter 'v' has never been a part of the Welsh alphabet:

    http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/a01b.html

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  • 68. At 09:54am on 30 May 2009, plaidman wrote:

    mappex

    The letter V has indeed been used in written Welsh in the past, as any student of early and medieval Welsh will tell you. It was disposed of with increasing standardisation of the written language which occurred with the growth of the Welsh language press during the 19th century.

    Languages change - today's rules will count for little in 200 years time.

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  • 69. At 09:55am on 30 May 2009, plaidman wrote:

    And poor Fi Dafydd has fallen victim to the language police I see. Why can't BBC Wa;es get some bilingual moderators in?

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  • 70. At 10:09am on 30 May 2009, John Henry wrote:

    FiDafydd,

    I used the link, what next ?

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  • 71. At 11:04am on 30 May 2009, lordBeddGelert wrote:

    No fewer than SIXTEEN posts on this blog are by the SAME PERSON !!!

    This is NOT a 'chat room' or a 'forum'. It is a BLOG.

    If wanting to spout inane rudeness is what is required, and spouting a load of non sequiturs disguised as argument, might I suggest that this 'BLOG' is not really what you are after. Or maybe you should get a blog of your own. Or are you worried that nobody would drop by to read your views.

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  • 72. At 11:43am on 30 May 2009, wonderParksy wrote:

    Re:68

    I may be able to save you the trip to the local authority's offices. I think you have misunderstood what they have told you. These are the facts:

    The new school in Newport is a primary school. Its opening will have no immediate impact on secondary provision.

    There are two Welsh medium primary schools in Torfaen - Ysgol Bryn Onnen in Varteg and Ysgol Gymraeg Cwmbran in St Dials. Although I do not know the numbers involved it is likely that the latter currently takes pupils living in the North Newport area, especially Bettws and Caerleon. In the future pupils from these areas are likely to attend the new primary school in Newport. Therefore, in the short to medium term, there will be some reduction in the pupil intake at YGG Cwmbran. However, there has been no previous suggestion by Torfaen that this threatens the longer term future of YGG Cwmbran. If you do go to the LEA offices on Monday and they suggest otherwise to you, I would be very interested to know. However, I am afraid I will not be posting any further responses.

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  • 73. At 12:29pm on 30 May 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 70

    Read it maybe? And then realise that your original assertion - stated as absolut fact - can, at the very, very least, be challenged.

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  • 74. At 12:53pm on 30 May 2009, John Henry wrote:

    FiDafydd, It's .....

    THE GODODDIN
    Book of Aneurin I
    Translation by Joseph Clancy

    We use the letter "u" in English.

    ..... you obviously want me to look at something in Welsh, you need to be a little more precise.

    No agenda at this end.

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  • 75. At 1:00pm on 30 May 2009, Hogygog wrote:

    72. At last , light rather than heat .

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  • 76. At 1:16pm on 30 May 2009, FiDafydd wrote:


    Stonemason,

    It's ridiculous that on a BBC Wales site that I'm unable to quote a few lines of poetry in Welsh.

    Never mind, hopefully this will work:

    http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/a01w.html

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  • 77. At 5:15pm on 30 May 2009, John Henry wrote:

    FiDafydd, you can quote a few lines .....

    The house rules ..... We reserve the right to fail messages which.....

    Are written in anything other than English - Welsh and Gaelic may be used where marked

    So FiDafydd get marking.


    Very interesting, are there facsimiles of the originals or earliest script, I presume the modern script has made a literal text copy, so that the "v" is shown. I am not sceptical that there has been a faithful copy made, I am still doubtful the "v" has existed in the Welsh.

    My reasoning ......

    In the document "The North Britain Triads" there is a reference to ".... the second was Perwevyr wife of ....", this name is Breton, the Breton sentence "war vor atao" means "always at sea" and you notice the use of "v". The poets of this time did use words from other contemporary languages, in this case a Breton female name, but remember we are now in the 3rd to 6th century, little script remains outwith the Latin. It is reasonable to assume that words that include the "v" could became part of the Welsh language, but was it permanent, I see no proof that "v" was ever part of the alphabet. If you consider "Wenglish" anything is indeed possible, in the vernacular, and the bardic prose would have been in the vernacular.

    Now although I see no proof, I must see an element of doubt, so the question needs to be put to others with the necessary linguistic and historic skills. I'll find a couple of experts, ask the question, and come back to you. You could do the same.


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  • 78. At 6:24pm on 30 May 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 77

    I'm not quite sure why we're still discussing this.

    Please remember that your initial message was to do with the name Gwent -which means we're going back a long long way; which is why I questioned your certainty in the first place. I asked the question whether you're sure that the letter 'v' has never been a part of written Welsh. I have shown you proof that it has - and there's plenty more.

    You must also remember that the orthography of most European languages weren't finalised until the 19th century, and slightly later in Welsh because we had no national university. So there is nothing strange, or unique here.

    I'm afraid you're rather clutching at straws with your Breton theory. But out of interest to those who may not know, Breton and Cornish are the nearest of the Celtic family of languages to the Welsh.

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  • 79. At 6:38pm on 30 May 2009, brynt41 wrote:

    #77

    "The house rules ..... We reserve the right to fail messages which.....

    Are written in anything other than English - Welsh and Gaelic may be used where marked"

    The BBC needs to get real on this particular issues. Wales is a bilingual country. Their policy places the Welsh Language in a ghetto. We are the licence payers. Its time that 'British' was taken out of the BBC.

    So Mods... bring this issue to the notice of the Man/Woman behind the big desk who gets paid too much of OUR money for doing too little.

    I notice that the BBC's Welsh Language Political blog has to be moderated by the its owner. They don't employ a qualfied Welsh speaker to do it. That's totally unfair. I'm complaining to you, the Mods, and to Ms Powys. Let's see some ACTION!

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  • 80. At 7:01pm on 30 May 2009, John Henry wrote:

    FiDafydd,

    I read what you offered and it is not proof, the "v" exists in a modern text copy, but what exists in the original. I don't intend to fight you on this issue, but I do intend to get to the bottom of it, it is very strange linguistically for an element to drop out, we tend to hoard our language.

    Can you imagine how it would affect English if tomorrow the "v" was discontinued. How would we express "value" or "vague", you might think it done and dusted, I think it fascinating.


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  • 81. At 7:08pm on 30 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 79...

    You lot moaned and complained after the 1979 referendum until you got another one in 1997.


    The rules for that were flimsy, and allowed 25% to gain the control you now have in Wales.

    However, This is an English only blog, and on here the rules were laid out from day one.

    If you do not like those rules, don't start your 1979 to 1997 blather all over again, just accept, as we all do.

    You WILL NOT get your own way again, so cease your fretting over it.

    The powers that be, have set the rulebook in stone, and those of us who readily accept it, will make damned sure you do not disrupt this blog just because you get smacked down occasionally, and cannot take it
    If that is the way you wish to behave you can easiliy sod off to somewhere else, leaving us in peace, with OUR ENGLISH only, language blog.


    Simple really.

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  • 82. At 7:46pm on 30 May 2009, John Henry wrote:

    brynt41 and chums .....

    To make Betsan's Blog Bilingual, would in effect, destroy an avenue that monoglot English speakers have to interact on local political matters, in public, unimpeded, 24 hours a day, 365 days of the year; is this the intention, is #79 the thin end of the Nationalist censors wedge,

    To introduce such a draconian measure would fit with the separatists who crave the safe certainties of isolation.


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  • 83. At 8:27pm on 30 May 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    It's been an interesting and intelligent day on here - and then m ap exx comes in with his usual size 10 rudeness and insults. It spoils this place.

    I did not ask for this to be a bilingual blog. I just noted that it was ridiculous that they disallowed a few lines of poetry in Welsh that were clearly pertinent to the on-going discussion. So I wish people would calm down.

    Vaughan's site does need more resources though. It's very difficult to have on-going discussions when there isn't anyone there to monitor it. Messages can be sent a couple of days sometimes before they actually appear.

    However, a second (or is it third?!) glass of wine, as I enjoy the last night of the Eisteddfod. Wales' Got Talent! What a nation we are, m ap exx!

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  • 84. At 8:52pm on 30 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 85. At 9:27pm on 30 May 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    Message 79, brynt wrote,
    The BBC needs to get real on this particular issues. Wales is a bilingual country. Their policy places the Welsh Language in a ghetto. We are the licence payers. Its time that 'British' was taken out of the BBC.

    Brynt, are you a Rhodri Morgan type who can trace their proper Welsh gene-pools back forever? Sorry, but an awful lot of Welsh folk can only be described as British, with gene-pools to prove it, and we shall defend that right to be British.
    In fact we are defending it, Llafurs vote share is in free fall, the swing is towards the Conservative and Unionist party.
    Would you like the BBC to cease broadcasting in Wales? Would you like S4C to replace the BBC in Wales, with folk living within the Welsh borders having to pay a compulsory license fee to S4C?





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  • 86. At 10:01pm on 30 May 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 85

    ... and it seems Jack went to the same charm school as m ap exx.

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  • 87. At 10:14pm on 30 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 88. At 10:39pm on 30 May 2009, Griffaa wrote:

    Stonemason

    While I loath to use Wikipedia to try and prove a point unfortunately the texts that I would need to show you are not available offline. I will keep looking for a non-Wikipedia source but in the meantime

    Wikipedia:
    in Old Welsh, while /v/ could be denoted by u, v, f or w. In earlier manuscripts, moreover, fricatives were often not distinguished from stops (e.g. t for //, the sound now written with th).The grapheme k was also used more commonly than in the modern alphabet, particularly before front vowels.The disuse of this letter is at least partly due to the publication of William Morgan's Welsh Bible, whose English printers, with type letter frequencies set for English and Latin, did not have enough k letters in their type cases to spell every /k/ sound as k, so the order went "C for K, because the printers have not so many as the Welsh requireth";this was not liked at the time, but has become standard usage.

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  • 89. At 10:41pm on 30 May 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "At least we went to a school that taught us to be polite, if direct."

    Followed by:


    "Nasty twerp as you are"


    Map - are you some kind of parody figure attempting to look ridiculous?


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  • 90. At 10:52pm on 30 May 2009, Griffaa wrote:

    Stonemason:

    Here you go, a photo of the manuscript Book of Aneurin - written in the 13th Century and including Y Gododdin (medieval Welsh poem). (I know it's another wiki link, but it's a photo of the manuscript so isn't subjective)

    There should be plenty of "v"'s there to satisfy you (and a few "k"'s too). Languages evolve a lot over the centuries, even a Welsh speaker like me would struggle to understand much of the Book of Aneurin, dropping letters is hardly an astonishing thing and I would assume that many languages other than Welsh have done it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gododdin1.jpg

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  • 91. At 08:19am on 31 May 2009, Ian wrote:

    The Urdd Eisteddfod is always a delight to attend and this week has been no different. Being there and experiencing the enthusiasm for the language, makes such a mockery of all the anti-language comments made on this site by the usual suspects. I would however suggest that some thought has to go into the layout of the site before it comes to Cardiff Bay again.
    Despite a few embarrassing complaints from locals about 'their bay' being cut off by these Welsh types-for one week every five years, my main concern is the way in which the main area of stands is cut off from the rest of the Maes. Many who visit the Maes do not even realise that these stalls exist and relying on the small print on the free map is not good enough.

    As far as the Bourne Conspiracy is concerned, why raise this a week before the Euro elections when the main topic of conservation is expenses? This can only damage the Tory vote and while this is not an issue for me, it will be to the Tory canvassers and leafleters on the doorstep.

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  • 92. At 08:33am on 31 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    Message 89.....


    Now let me look at this in a reasonable fashion...


    Was I talking to you?...NO.


    Was I making a point to a very nasty piece of work? ...Yes.


    Have you been the subject of a continuous and sustained form of attack on this blog?.... NO.

    Have I been...etc., as above?... Yes.


    So if you do not want some of the same,. Do I suggest you refrain from entering this ongoing put down scenario?.... Yes.

    I know you have attempted to so engage, over the last couple of weeks or so, but unfortunaley for you, you do not have the cajones to do more than throw in your odd two penn'orth, which usualy is rather ineffective.

    That was a polite, and reasonable, response to you.

    Please keep it in mind, that of you wish to join the ranks of idiots such as Ffiadd, then be prepared to get the same treatment.

    OK?

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  • 93. At 09:12am on 31 May 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    Mapexx - don't order me about pal - I'll post what I want thanks - you don't exactly scare me - more bore me to tears.

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  • 94. At 09:14am on 31 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 91....


    Sorry Harri, but if you think that is the cause of the political disdain and antipathy by the elecetorate then you have a very naive understanding of what is going on.

    Quote...


    ...."As far as the Bourne Conspiracy is concerned, why raise this a week before the Euro elections when the main topic of conservation is expenses? This can only damage the Tory vote and while this is not an issue for me, it will be to the Tory canvassers and leafleters on the doorstep.....".


    It is far deeper than just the expenses problem, that was simply the trigger for the media to stir up the apathetic public.

    However, it seems to have backfired, as the current trends appear to say the public turnout will be about 16% of those entitled to vote.

    That is a disgrace in a modern so called democracy.

    It gives a spur to head for compulsory voting as I see it.

    Added to which, if Brown has the courage of his convictions, a complete turnabout in the way parliament is both constructed, and controlled.


    AS far as you 'enthusiasm for the language' comment is concerned, what the heck else would one expect in a Language based festival?

    For the supposed 'new' demand for the language in Cardiff, the turnout seems pathetically low to me.

    But I'll go my way, and you go mine.

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  • 95. At 09:43am on 31 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 93


    No orders pal, just a fair and polite warning of what you will get if you opt to carry on presenting scathing comments to my messages, especially when they were, originally, NOT in response to anything written by you.

    As stated, follow FFiadd and you will get the same. Otherwise back off.

    As for being bored, how do you think I feel with the likes of you and Ffiadd to contend with?

    No debate, no argument, or discussion, just the same old scurrilous nonsense; way off thread, and without of any sort of good manners.


    That is why he, and you, if you insist, will constantly get my sort of responses.

    Understand?

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  • 96. At 10:14am on 31 May 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "No debate, no argument, or discussion, just the same old scurrilous nonsense; way off thread, and without of any sort of good manners"

    Astonishing - you only have one thread, scurrilous nonsense is your speciality and as for good manners well I think you missed charm school Map.

    "Understand?" Perhaps that should have read "Capice?"

    Respond as you feel - just have a little think about the quality of your contributions to any "debate"

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  • 97. At 10:26am on 31 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

  • 98. At 10:38am on 31 May 2009, KelvinD wrote:

    It was only a fortnight ago that Betsan wrote:

    "In the meantime do me a favour. Stick to the subject. Some of you stand accused daily of not just failing to do that but doing your damnest to avoid it in favour of rants and what certainly veers towards abuse. It's getting me down. More importantly by half it's getting readers down and it's putting off others who have less confidence, less appetite for an anonymous going-over but just as much right to join the debate.

    "Try it. You might find it gets us somewhere and these days, wouldn't that be very, very welcome?"


    Despite this being a perfectly reasonable request (this is Betsan's Blog after all) and one which I know most of us would heartily agree with, it seems that some people either have failing memories or viewed Betsan's plea with utter contempt and reverted to type almost immediately.

    Shame on them.

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  • 99. At 11:35am on 31 May 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "I shall now tell you this, if you wish to debate, discuss, or argue, then KEEP to the thread subject matter,or at least the ongoing track of the matter, and refrain from following Ffiadd, with his perpetual slimy sniping.


    Comprende?"

    You are ordering people about again Mapexx.

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  • 100. At 12:20pm on 31 May 2009, Jack_Wilkinson wrote:

    Mappexx,
    it's apparent to any fair minded person that you are the victim of nationalist types ganging up. Ignore them, they know their cause is lost so they mindlessly attack those making a Unionist point. Brynt calls us rabid Unionists, are we allowed to call nationalists RABID?

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  • 101. At 12:31pm on 31 May 2009, dontblameme wrote:

    Re: 79
    Roddfa = name of Cornish clotted cream producers
    How would you pronounce that?
    Also fenestre latin rot used in french and welsh = window
    How did english end up with window?
    The function of language is communication and it has and will change with time. FiDaffyd is right on this and so is everyone else. The fact that we all nderstand what the other is saying proves this.
    However
    Minority languages are not understood by the majority and so dis-appear in time, see Cornish-Roddfa and Breton and Alsation etc

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  • 102. At 12:56pm on 31 May 2009, Ian wrote:

    I don't normally respond to you Mappex, as you generally go off on a tangent. However, the reality is that the current and predicted future demand for Welsh medium education in Cardiff is rising faster than anywhere else in Wales. The demand is so high that even a Council quite sympathetic to this trend are finding it difficult to keep up.

    The biggest area of demand is actually Grangetown-the most ethnically diverse ward in Wales. Also, this demand comes from across the community, from local born and bred Cardiffians who have no Welsh language in their homes, from the ethnic minority communities and also the families who have moved into the area-largely due to the devolution dividend.
    The usual accusation of parents avoiding so-called poor English medium schools by choosing Welsh medium holds no water, as the Council can produce statistics showing parents passing top rated Estyn Enlish medium schools to go to Welsh medium schools.
    So in conclusion, Welsh medium education is expanding rapidly in our nation's capital, with demand coming fron all communities. I also predict that when the third Welsh medium comp opens in the East of the city in a few years, there will be a further boost in demand to an extent that the Council are already looking for the site for a 4th school.
    I hope that my comment was relevant enough to the debate, but it does wind me up when people make negative and wholly unsubstantiated comments about the demand for Welsh medium education in Cardiff.

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  • 103. At 4:07pm on 31 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 99...

    Considering you will not behave voluntarily, maybe a dose of ordering is in order.


    However, you know the alternative.... cast youself adrift, and annoy others on a different blog.

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  • 104. At 4:20pm on 31 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 102...

    Thankfully, unlike a few others your message was lucid and relevant.

    My case was not that the education in particular areas is not up to scratch, but that taken overall, results are behind those in Schools over in England. Check that out (if you feel the need), despite funding being made available, that surpasses that, per pupil, in England's schools.

    In my previous message I made the point that, despite the boasted about attendance figures for the Urdd, considering the claimed for increased number attending Ysgol in Cardiff, and elsewhere, the number in attendance were nowhere near what it might have been.

    Cardiff is not a difficult venue to visit, there are plenty of road, rail and public transport means of getting there from fair distances, so taking the numbers that visited against the potential from most parts of mid to south Wales, I maintain the attendance figures are nothing to boast about.

    They remain, more or less, within the average parameters of the percentage who already are classified as true and fluent Cymraeg users.

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  • 105. At 4:50pm on 31 May 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    I think it was m ap exx who said that he thought the attendances at the Eisteddfod were pathetic! Well, nearly 90,000 people and some 15,000 young competitors deciding to travel to Cardiff from all corners of Wales in the middle of one of the worst economic downturns in our history, in my opinion, is pretty amazing.

    And by the way, it's a cultural, not a language festival.

    Next year it's our turn in Ceredigion, where we are well on the way to reaching the financial target that we were set.

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  • 106. At 7:34pm on 31 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 105...


    You consider an attendance ratio of 6 visitors to 1 performer a good show do you?

    I would have thought if there were as many interested in the Urdd as you imply, the attendance would have been at least four or five, if not ten times the number you claim for.
    Especially in the Capital city.

    My idea of a good show would be something in the order of a visit to a major event, such as Glastonbury, or even a BBC open air Welsh Concert In The Park, conducted in English, with some Cymraeg input.
    Bryn Terfel, Kathryn Jenkins etc.,on the stage.

    That is what I would call a good show, with ten thousand ramping up the applause for the Manics, Stereophonics, Cerys Matthews et al.

    Ratios? four or five thousands to one.

    That is a good show, and not plumped up, and filled out at public expense.


    I did not say it was a 'language festival', once again you add words that cannot be ratified, I said, the numbers attending were, considering it was held in the Capital city, not out of place when taken in concert with the 'average numbers' who relate to the use of the language.
    Totally a different meaning to the attempted slant you placed on my comments.

    I hope others have read and determined the false input from message 105.

    It is this sort of typical implication I constantly refer to, whenever Ffiadd responds to messages from I.




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  • 107. At 7:38pm on 31 May 2009, Bob wrote:

    I do understand why parents would be proud to see their children perform. But what a shame they can't understand. The Urdd and the Eistedford must be two of the few things left that have public money yet are not bilingual.

    They loose money hand over fist, yet there is no demand for them to make efficient use of this money, simply keep going as before.

    However in these days of belt tightening, can we afford for a few people in a small region of the country to keep demanding the UK to fund their party? Would the whole affair be better if it allowed full access to all. Think of the size and scale of the events that would take place !!!

    Oh, and the Welsh education in Cardiff is based on the general feeling that teaching someone in another language gives them a better education. Also a lot of Welsh schools have a lot better facilities than their English counterparts.

    However, seeing as there are Welsh speaking schools in Wales on special measures, one wonders if we could get some facts sometime on this 'fact'.

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  • 108. At 8:26pm on 31 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 107...



    ".....Oh, and the Welsh education in Cardiff is based on the general feeling that teaching someone in another language gives them a better education. Also a lot of Welsh schools have a lot better facilities than their English counterparts. ...."


    A germane point raised before by others, one that is so blindingly obvious, except to those who have the idea they hold the purse strings purely for the benefit of that minority who happen to want Cymraeg as their optional method of education..

    But as I have also stated in the recent past, much of the demand is from a very vocal minority, whom, for want of a better description, are just English speaking 'trendies', playing with their kids futures.

    They will, of course pay the price of their folly in years to come.

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  • 109. At 8:44pm on 31 May 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "However, you know the alternative.... cast youself adrift, and annoy others on a different blog"

    Yep - Go for it yourself Map = an excellent idea - I think we'vee heard everything you want to say about forty six times....

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  • 110. At 8:56pm on 31 May 2009, John Henry wrote:


    Dewi_H drops his "r" and misses the point.

    Democracy says mapexx has the right to an opinion, there's no dictatorship as yet, though the Nationalists would try.

    There's no annoyance.

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  • 111. At 9:03pm on 31 May 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    Of course he has his right to his opinion Stony - but me - I've never been fond of bullies - "Warning" - "Understand" - that's OK but he can't complain when he gets his nonsense back.

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  • 112. At 9:21pm on 31 May 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 106

    There was no rebuke, no insult, nothing that you should have taken offence to in 105. Yet, all you can do is reply with insult and the usual prejudices. Nobody is asking you to like the Eisteddfod for goodness sake!

    The Urdd Eisteddfod is apparently the largest youth festival of its sort in Europe, put one by one of the continent's smallest nations. I think that's pretty impressive. And there are many of you on here who are usually obsessed by the size of things!

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  • 113. At 10:06pm on 31 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    m,esage 112,...


    "....Of its sort...!"


    Tells you something then does it not?
    From my understanding, it is about the only one of 'its sort'.

    A bit unique then.

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  • 114. At 10:11pm on 31 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    Message 111,...


    Of course you could not 'comprende' but I referred to the FACT that there are rules of the house, which you seem to wish to ignore, by taking your comments 'off thread' and being personal into the bargian, in attacking me.

    Not to fret old thing, I have met your sort before, cannot put up an alternative, nor yet viable argument, so commece with the insults, and rubbish attempts at putdowns etc.

    I comprende only far too well,....Capice?

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  • 115. At 10:21pm on 31 May 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    Mapexx - are you being serious when you say you have not been personal? I'm quite willing to avoid it but personal attacks have been your modus operandus on this site for months. It's boring !!!!!

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  • 116. At 10:37pm on 31 May 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 113

    You just want to be nasty about everyone and everything. That's your choice.

    OK, I'll be more certain, because I don't think you can disprove it as it happens to be the truth: the Urdd Eisteddfod is THE largest youth festival in Europe.

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  • 117. At 10:41pm on 31 May 2009, Hogygog wrote:

    Re 107 : I've never heard of a specific Welsh-medium school being put under special measures . If you are sure of your facts, are you prepared to name it ? . I know of one school not far from my own close to special measures, but that is mostly (but not exclusively ) English-medium.
    I do accept that you might be referring to primary schools.

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  • 118. At 10:42pm on 31 May 2009, mapexx wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 119. At 11:27pm on 31 May 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 120. At 11:31pm on 31 May 2009, Ian wrote:

    There was a lack of effort by Cardiff to publicise the Urdd this year and believe that it was a mistake to have a fixed 5 year return visit. It is also a somewhat unusual site and the lack of a caravan site did not help, as this is often a way for people to afford staying away for a week with the family.
    Having said all that, it was very well organised and enjoyable. Now to get ready for the big one in Bala this August. The prospect of driving a six berth hired motorcaravan up the A470-I'll be mobile traffic queue!

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  • 121. At 11:43pm on 31 May 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    Was that you who referred my last message Map?

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  • 122. At 04:56am on 01 Jun 2009, Bostoniwr wrote:

    Mapexx at 118 asks for numbers, to show where he has provided personal vitriol rather than reasoned comments. It would be more of a challenge to provide references to statements by Mapexx which are not vitriolic.

    Here, though, are some samples of his vitriol, just in case he's serious in thinking that he's rational. You will also notice here his usual troubling rhetoric which, if it were spoken about any racial group (rather than a linguistic one) would probably be illegal. In any case it is entirely unpleasant. The voice of the bully is to be heard here.

    * * *

    #33: As far as I am concerned, the bulk of Cymraeg speaking Wales can go to hell on a handcart,

    we will be able to utilise our disregarded, but very ancient customs, habits,and practices, which of course include the daily use of ENGLISH, without it being contaminated by a language, which is effectively alien here in this area

    Those who do not wish to follow that, can disappear up into the other regions,

    #47 But if you wish to ignore me, by all means be my guest. You have little of worth to contribute anyway.

    #60 But, be a goody little clever clogs and bring out your little snack from your satchel, I am sure we would all like a bite of it.

    #81 If that is the way you wish to behave you can easiliy sod off to somewhere else, leaving us in peace, with OUR ENGLISH only, language blog.

    #92 idiots such as Ffiadd,

    #95 As stated, follow FFiadd and you will get the same. Otherwise back off.

    As for being bored, how do you think I feel with the likes of you and Ffiadd to contend with?

    No debate, no argument, or discussion, just the same old scurrilous nonsense; way off thread, and without of any sort of good manners.

    That is why he, and you, if you insist, will constantly get my sort of responses.

    Understand?

    * * *

    In a discussion of 120 posts, with 22 contributors, one voice (Mapexx) has made 41 of these posts [over 33%], as compared with what would be a mean of 5 [4%].

    The combination of personal unpleasantness and a distinct unwillingness to follow a discursive thread without relying on abuse stifles debate and makes this blog seem like a private - and very rowdy - bar, rather than a useful forum for sensible and informed debate.

    Beyond Mapexx, who is the most extreme example of the shouting-down of discussion, it is also worth noting that a mere 5 contributors have notched up 95 contributions (79%), much of which "comment" is made up of monopolising unpleasantness of the kind I have selected above; it seems that few are interested in facts. Those who do contribute sensible thoughts I applaud and wish your voices could be stronger, and your ideas given the respect they deserve.

    To mention other key offenders I would suggest that Fi Dafydd has been rather less than economical with his posting, too (and occasionally, I would suggest, exceptionally heated in his language): he has 19 postings here (16%), which puts him in 2nd place between Mapexx (31) and Stonemason (15 = 12%).

    The ill-informed and prejudiced anti-Welsh bias is positively disgusting. Witness, as just one example in this thread, the jiping of Stonemason and Mapexx from #33 concerning a point of *orthography* for goodness' sake - a jiping based on a complete lack of any factual basis, and a jiping which sucked up 18 comments before being settled by a simple statement of fact at #88).

    And this childishness has been going on for months, if not years! The climate in this blog was equally unpleasant the last time I called by, some time around the beginning of the year. I am very disappointed to see that nothing has changed.

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  • 123. At 05:42am on 01 Jun 2009, John Henry wrote:

    Bostoniwr

    ..... this blog seem like a private - and very rowdy - bar, rather than a useful forum for sensible and informed debate.

    Sensible and informed does happen, and just as in the rowdy bar some will become passionate with regard to their position, its called freedom of speech.

    You obviously have plenty of time on your hands to analyse the blog as you have, but did you read what was written?

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  • 124. At 08:52am on 01 Jun 2009, Llyn wrote:

    Mapexx there is no ambiguity about it Gwent is and always has been an ancient part of Wales.

    But if you are from Gwent and strangely believe yourself to be from another country so be it, eccentrics are just part of lifes rich tapestry. However, it is worth a thought that those who come from parts of a nation state that would not be described as its core have a tendency to over do their patriotism (and in most cases have used vicious and extreme measures and language to attack the regions or countries that they came from) so Franco wasnt Castilian but a Galician, Hitler (who like Mapexx used the word alien to attack a group of people in his case the Jews) was Austrian, Stalin was Georgian, Napoleon was Corsican and Jean Marie Le Pen is from Brittany. It is probably something that a psychiatrist could explain probably deriving from some sort of inferiority complex.

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  • 125. At 10:54am on 01 Jun 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 122....


    Mapexx did not ask for messages where he used strong rhetoric.

    But that does not phase our Bostonian one bit.


    What mapexx asked for, was... the numbers of messages where I used such rhetoric that was NOT in response to messages taking potshots at my previous message to theirs.

    But of course, Bostonian, as is common with all those who carry on in such an erroneous fashion, chose to IGNORE the gist of my message, and opted to provide the very opposite of what was asked for.


    Maybe Bostonian would care to go back over the blog, and provide what was asked for, and not what he, incomprehensibly, only thought I asked for.

    But having made one startling cock up, I doubt he is up for attempting to correct it, by doing as asked. I will ask Bostonian to further provide message numbers where I have made any comments that could be interpreted as denigrating the Welsh, Wales or the language.

    I am sick of asking to have these allegations demonstrated.

    If taking ALL those incidents, mentioned in #122 to pieces, no one can discover any attacks on those three aspects that Bostonian has attempted to lay at my feet, as being blameworthy.

    I suggest he learns to read and COMPREHEND, what he reads, not what he thinks he reads.

    Join the club with Ffiadd and Dewi Mr. Bostonian, there's plenty of room in their clubhouse.

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  • 126. At 11:02am on 01 Jun 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    I dunno Map:

    "As far as I am concerned, the bulk of Cymraeg speaking Wales can go to hell on a handcart"

    seems to meet your criteria fairly snugly.

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  • 127. At 11:09am on 01 Jun 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 123...


    I think harri you should be a tad more careful to whom you address your comments.


    I made it quite clear I find the whole debate about the status of Monmouthshire(Gwent)totally ambiguous. Being neither for or against it's placement into either Wales or England.

    In fact, I think I also said, as far as I am concerned it can be placed outside of either. It matters not one whit to me whichever way the cookie crumbles.

    But, I also stated I am quite happy to accept, what is now the case, in regards it's geopolitical location.

    Effectively what I am saying in response to # 123, I am quite happy in whichever is seen to be the best for Gwent(Mon).

    I cannot recall siding with Hitler in anything I have said regarding Wales, the Welsh or the language, the nationalists apparent agenda yes, but if you have read the term 'alien' in anything I have written, then I suggest you have taken it out of the context in which it was so written, in order to reinforce whatever point it is you are trying to make.

    I would be obliged therefore if you can provide the message number where the term 'alien' was used by me, and I will then consider if you have taken it out of the context in which it was written.

    If so, I will then correct you input.

    Now, considering you took the trouble to write and post message 123, don't be reticent, continue the schedule and give the reply I now ask you to give.

    Then we can dispose of any misunderstanding on the part of either of us.

    Fair enough?

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  • 128. At 11:51am on 01 Jun 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 126,


    Sorry pal, you take it out of context, try again.

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  • 129. At 12:30pm on 01 Jun 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 128

    ????????? How exactly?

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  • 130. At 1:09pm on 01 Jun 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 129,


    by failing to complete the whole paragraph.


    But, I see Ffiadd butts in again! Will you never learn to keep out?

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  • 131. At 1:13pm on 01 Jun 2009, Dewi_H wrote:

    "As far as I am concerned, the bulk of Cymraeg speaking Wales can go to hell on a handcart, my interest lies in what is to happen here in the east of Wales, particularly the south east."

    And how does that make it less offensive paray tell?

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  • 132. At 1:23pm on 01 Jun 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    Bostoniwr
    122
    At last someone has spoken out about the bullying that goes on on this blog.
    How can anyone want to take part in any blog topic. Whenever they have got something to contribute, it is shouted down and they are abused by a small minority of bullying contributors who tell us to get of this blog site and it is so easy to retaliate and fall into the trap youself.
    No matter what your thoughts and views, however much they may differ to what others believe, it is still their right to contribute without having to be humiliated, bullied and ridiculed by others, you know who you are.
    Like the media today everything seems to be based on the lowest common denominator, even rational argument and discussion.
    Respect for other peoples views has gone down the drain, it is not a bit of wonder young people today have no respect and are turned off politics, when they see their elders behave as the people on this blog do. Shame on us all

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  • 133. At 1:33pm on 01 Jun 2009, mapexx wrote:

    messages 128, 129, and any subsequent moaning messages on the matter...



    ".....As far as I am concerned, the bulk of Cymraeg speaking Wales can go to hell on a handcart, my interest lies in what is to happen here in the east of Wales, particularly the south east....."


    ....for those of you who do not seem able to comprehend written English, relying on a single sentence, that was qualified originally by the rest of the paragraph, you need to learn to understand that that 'single sentence' you took, without it's qualifier, WAS therefore taken out of context.

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  • 134. At 1:50pm on 01 Jun 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 132....


    Yes, I totally agree, with one caveat.


    That being.... I insist on maintaining the right to respond in a like manner, and as told before to all those who respond to me in such a manner as you are deprecating, they will get it back tenfold.

    However it does not seem to impact on them that it will happen, as they still carry on regardless.

    And that included yourself, Ffiadd, Dewi, Bostionwir and a few others.

    I give Brynt a degree of latitude, as often, when he has deigned to respond to me, he has at least been somewhat polite in his response.

    Try it yourself sometime, it may pay dividends.

    But as far as knocking you down, figuratively speaking, No, your points yes. Especially if they are arguable.


    If you wish a guiding example, refer to the message 124, from harri.Good argument, without an ounce of impoliteness.

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  • 135. At 1:57pm on 01 Jun 2009, brynt41 wrote:

    #133

    Its because you write so much, and so much drivel, imo. You don't seem to have much else to do. Perhaps a change of habit, an occasional visit to your local for a pint would help you chill out. I have to say though, that if you expressed some of your extreme opinions there it could be detrimental to your health or well-being.

    Quite honestly, I find it a waste of time responding to you. If you contributed less, but with more thought and consideration for the feelings of others, your comments would be taken more seriously.

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  • 136. At 2:00pm on 01 Jun 2009, mapexx wrote:

    PS to my message 106...


    Speaking to someone of my acquaintance this morning, it was pointed out to me, something I had not even thought about, that the bulk of those attending, would have been the parents, grandparents, other relatives and neighbours of those participating in the Urdd.

    Which of course, is only natural that they would, and should attend.

    However, as my contact mentioned, it puts a different slant entirely on the trumpeted for figures, in that, had their little darlings not been participating, the attendance figures would have been nowhere near what they were.


    Now you can take that as you will, but I sense a certain logic in it, as I also sense that you will not see it the same way.

    Se la Vie!


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  • 137. At 2:05pm on 01 Jun 2009, mapexx wrote:

    Message 135....


    Just goes to show eh?

    Cut a guy a bit of slack, and he throws it back at you.

    I was also of the mind to add, he at least usually puts up a decent argument, then he ruins his input with a unison with those other fools.

    No accounting for some people at all.

    As for acting a certain way in a pub, I can think back to quite a few of yours that would have loosened some of your teeth in the same pub.

    Kettles and pots old chum.

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  • 138. At 2:09pm on 01 Jun 2009, mapexx wrote:

    PS to 137....


    Strange how it is only those cheering on the nationalist agenda that disagree with me.


    AS I and others have noted, the incidences ars far too co-ordinated to be mere coincidence.


    Look to your laurels, we are coming to get you!

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  • 139. At 2:17pm on 01 Jun 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    mapexx
    Ah well, I tried. If we could only see ourselves as others see us.
    I think you will have your way before long, this will end up being your own personal website if Betsan is not careful. Oops sorry I'm not supposed to mention her name am I.

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  • 140. At 3:15pm on 01 Jun 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 136

    m ap exx

    "...that the bulk of those attending, would have been the parents, grandparents, other relatives and neighbours of those participating in the Urdd."

    That's a very long list - and neighbours!!

    Yes some parents do visit the Eisteddfod, the vast majority, however, I imagine do not - cannot. The children very often go as part of a school or village or local group and they travel and stay together. So why not just celebrate this fantastic event? What is the agenda here? Why so cynical and curmudgeonly?

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  • 141. At 3:46pm on 01 Jun 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 140...


    Nothing of the kind, just catching up on the original, with a point I had not thought of.


    Likewise yours, groups attendance not considered.

    a draw... 1 all, I think.

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  • 142. At 4:01pm on 01 Jun 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 139...


    Now that is what I truly call 'sour grapes', petulance of the highest order.


    Cast you eyes backwards old fella, if it was not for me giving you all a damned good run for your ink, this and other blogs would be sterile, arid, and hardly worth logging on to.

    No you were not supposed to mention her name... in the way you did so previously, seeking out a pat on the back for your efforts,... nothing at all wrong in a passing reference.

    I am sure she needs reminding she is supposed to be about somewhere or other. An attention getter, if you like.

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  • 143. At 4:24pm on 01 Jun 2009, Pads wrote:

    "a draw... 1 all, I think"

    Says it all really. How sad.

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  • 144. At 4:40pm on 01 Jun 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 143....

    If you think that is a smart retort, why not try putting your own comments forward.

    Moreo the point, what 'all' does it say?

    That little effort of yours hardly ruffled feathers.

    I am sure you could, if you tried, really enter into the debate, rather than just slipping in a little dig, like your message 143..

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  • 145. At 4:52pm on 01 Jun 2009, lordBeddGelert wrote:

    Hands up who wants to send m***xx to the 'sin bin' ??

    Mine is the first name on the petition..

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  • 146. At 5:09pm on 01 Jun 2009, FiDafydd wrote:

    Re 143

    Precisely ... and tedious. I've already said that there were about 15,000 young competitors. Amazing! Again, why can't we just celebrate that?

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  • 147. At 5:10pm on 01 Jun 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 145...


    Thus spake the censorial LBG.

    Can't say anything constructive then?

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  • 148. At 6:46pm on 01 Jun 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    my hand goes up as well

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  • 149. At 7:00pm on 01 Jun 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 148...


    No doubt to greet the effluent coming down.

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  • 150. At 7:24pm on 01 Jun 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    149
    Effluent

    Stream flowing from larger stream or lake.

    The large lake of Welsh culture with the effluent streams spreading their way around Wales.

    Yes!! I like it mapexx

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  • 151. At 7:34pm on 01 Jun 2009, penddu wrote:

    Mapexx - this used to be an interesting blog - but you just pollute the site with your insane/inane ramblings - and then try to bully any dissenters away - I dont agree with any attempt to sinbin you as I believe in free speech - but I do find you extremely tedious and wish you would just give it a rest. I dont agree with StoneMason's political views but I am happy to listen/discuss with him. You - I wont bother unless you stay on topic.

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  • 152. At 7:44pm on 01 Jun 2009, mapexx wrote:

    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

  • 153. At 8:17pm on 01 Jun 2009, Crossroads wrote:

    Well well well, I come on here to have a look at what's going on and what do I find?
    A host of Plaidophile activists, fresh out of Plaid's creepy CYMRU X camp trying (with absolutely no success whatsoever) to bully our Mapexx.

    Lads,as you've probably realised by now, you really are wasting your time. Mapexx is of the older school, an 'old Labour' man,who has seen it all before, and almost without trying can wipe the floor with you Johnny-come-lately Plaid supporters.

    Go gettum old fella, I know it's easy, but there's nothing much on the tele so what the hell.

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  • 154. At 10:13pm on 01 Jun 2009, alfsplace1986 wrote:

    Noah_sembly

    153

    Lads,as you've probably realised by now, you really are wasting your time. Mapexx is of the older school, an 'old Labour' man,who has seen it all before, and almost without trying can wipe the floor with you Johnny-come-lately Plaid supporters.


    It is finaly confirmed and out in the open all the tactics old Labour have always been up to in the valleys of the South of Wales, typified by mapexx.

    We have all known Labours true feelings, now it is ratified what they realy think about the Welsh language and the culture of Wales.

    So much for them saying we need to integrate with Welsh Wales it is all lies. Thank you mapexx and Noah_sembly

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  • 155. At 11:51pm on 01 Jun 2009, Bostoniwr wrote:

    The last few comments betray another ugly aspect of these debates:

    "our Mapexx"
    "We... know"
    "you Johnny-come-lately Plaid supporters"

    it's "us" and "them" as far as too many people are concerned, and that is a sure-fire killer of sensible discussion and of the possibility of understanding the real issues. And it risks killing far more than this.

    (For the record, and for those who would label me a "Plaidophile": I have no political stake in any of this; I am neither resident in, nor a registered voter in, the UK. I would like to think that the *issues* of Wales, which are serious and fascinating, are far beyond party politics, and in their implications relevant to far more than even the Welsh population. Personally, I wish the Welsh people could see their situation in more of a European, or even global, context than simply that of the UK vs 'independence', which misses almost all of the important points).

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  • 156. At 05:47am on 02 Jun 2009, John Henry wrote:

    Bostoniwr writes .....

    "I wish the Welsh people could see their situation in more of a European, or even global, context than simply that of the UK vs 'independence', which misses almost all of the important points."


    You continue tip toeing through your tulips, your vision of our future misses the point completely, the word our is the United Kingdom, our United Kingdom in our Europe in our Global village, that would be the democratic majority of our voters when we vote.


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  • 157. At 07:44am on 02 Jun 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 155...

    Boston' wrote

    ....."I wish the Welsh people could see their situation in more of a European, or even global, context than simply that of the UK vs 'independence', which misses almost all of the important points)...."


    In a previous message this person, who admits to not even being of Wales, castigated me for reasons best known to himself, yet pens the above quote, which effectively substantiates my stance, and which has been my stance for years.
    I too cannot see Wales in anything less than a global perspective, hence my perpetual 'down' on the petty minded parochial nationalist element, that would have us turned into a backwater, on the edge of the EU.

    In saying that I also cannot abide the idea that hiving off Wales from it's bread and butter provider, will somehow, as if by magic, overnight almost, see Wales as a 'new kid on the European block', without being a part of the UK.


    Stoney has it totally correct in saying we are part and parcel of both the global and European economic establishment, but on a solitary basis will descend to a much lower level, due to our inability to put on offer anything that Europe or the globe could find attractive.

    We will therefore still be there with our begging bowl to the fore, from day one of 'independence'.


    And yes Boston' it is a case of us and them. the us being the 80+% who do not necessarily contribute to the independence scenario.

    Demonstrated by the degree of apathy shown in elections.

    'Us' tend to believe that those who show such apathy, are reflecting an antipathy, as well as an apathy, towards the demands of 'them'.

    And it is very obvious whenever this is mentioned, all 'Us' get is a barrage of 'you are anti Welsh, anti Wales and anti language' rhetoric, all unfounded of course, as their lack of comprehension, absence of capability to discuss and debate, but worst of all, bad manners tends to show.

    So it is not to be impolite to you that we do not receive, with good grace, your assessment of what we perceive to be the situation, here, in our home territory.


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  • 158. At 09:33am on 02 Jun 2009, Cilmyn wrote:

    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

  • 159. At 09:49am on 02 Jun 2009, mapexx wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 160. At 10:20am on 02 Jun 2009, Cilmyn wrote:

    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

  • 161. At 10:47am on 02 Jun 2009, mapexx wrote:

    message 160 ...


    You are being disengenuous, the quoted 80% in my message was a reference, not to some magical percentage that could be seen as a 'yes' percentage for your ideas, it was a general reflection of the approximate number, as stated ...'who do not necessarily contribute to the independence scenario'...

    Nothing at all to do with percentages for devolution, the language or any other aspect of your convoluted argument.

    Nor was it a statement of fact that the number are to be assessed as anti anything, as stated, simply that they show no preference, in their apathy, and failure to engage in elections or referendums, to any great degree..

    I would however like an explaination of this comment from your last message...


    ...."The latest opinion polls have shown that only around 10-11% of the population was in favour of independence....."


    Are you saying others, who claim a massive swing towards independence in the latest polls, are stating false results?

    If not, then we are together in assessing these results as somewhat out of kilter with reality at street level..


    As a final point, unless I am totally unable to read my own prose, I see no threats in my message, so I suggest you have a go at reading straight wordage, for what is it, and refrain from adding your own interpretation.

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  • 162. At 10:52am on 02 Jun 2009, mapexx wrote:

    PS to tha last one...

    I forgot to mention, statistical analysis has shown that one does not have to speak Cymraeg to be for, or against, devolved status, many who are fluent in that language are against taking Wales out of the UK, just as there are some who do not speak Cymraeg, are for devolution, leading to independent status.

    Many of those, apparently, far more rabid than the Cymraeg fluents.

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  • 163. At 11:08am on 02 Jun 2009, Cilmyn wrote:

    This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain

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